17 Episode results for "Oak Woodland"

EOC 193: Wildfires to Wildflowers: Ildiko Polony and Eco-Activism

Eyes on Conservation Podcast

1:02:12 hr | 1 year ago

EOC 193: Wildfires to Wildflowers: Ildiko Polony and Eco-Activism

"Welcome to is on conservation episode. One Ninety Ninety three. I'm kristen teach the producer and host of today's episode before we dive in to ask you a favor if you haven't made a pledge to our patriots hatred on page yet I encourage you to do so producing this. Content takes a lot of time and hard work and to do it on a regular basis. We need need regular support. Suu Please head. Over to Patriot dot com slash wildlands collective and choose a pledge level for one dollar month you get quality the environmental storytelling every two weeks. Thanks for your support now onto the show. Let's talk about the climate crisis and the extinction crisis. It's not hard to feel like there's nothing we can do to stop these cascading cascading and devastating global environmental trends. It's like we're literally carrying the weight of the world on her shoulders and it feels too big too heavy. That's where wildfires to wildflowers. Comes in Ilga. Polinje is the founder and visionary of this new organization whose mission is to restore California lands for climate stability and reach carbon negatively by twenty forty. Six I just had lunch with Ildiko Toco. And she'll tell us a little bit more about her organization and why she started it. Hey L. Toco great to see you tell me a little bit more about your background in Ecology Environmental Science and how you became an activist. I've been an activist Most of my adult life I started with actually Hurricane Katrina Relief and then climate activism. I found it a few student groups on campus. When I was at City College of San Francisco Go and Northern Virginia Community College and I've done a bunch of small projects. Raising money raising awareness I direct action around the Keystone Don xl pipeline and then. I was sort of awakened to habitat restoration because I actually burnt out From all the activism visited the school when I was a professional dancer and I was just I was working really hard and I spent about a semester gardening in my backyard and I discovered just this plethora of wildlife that existed in my tiny mission district backyard without any attempts on our part to help it survive and I asked myself of all of this can be here Dr Despite over two hundred years of paving and polluting and the second most densely populated city in the country. Which is San Francisco? What could be here if we actually tried to help nature sure? And how do we help nature. And so. I started googling around and I learned it. was you plant the plants that the animals evolved with so that would be in this case California California native plants plants native to San Francisco. And so I started doing that And just sort of learning on my own. I had already in school been studying environmental sciences environmental studies. I've been studying both the social and the You know a biotic and biotic components of our environmental issues and then I even focused even more on habitat restoration in urban areas in particular killer. So I sort of switched my coursework and then I also started volunteering. Not In like the Golden Gate Park Oak Woodland in just little little remnant patches of habitat in this in this city that we're never bulldozed. I've started volunteering doing restoration in teaching myself as much as I could and it led me to a career in less. Yes so it's really interesting how you're quitting. You know of them with gardening thing and habitat restoration. Can you just go into a little bit more detail about that. Well I see gardens as as a gateway way anybody who has any amount of open space that could even be a window sill can figure out what plants are native to to their area what animals still exist in their area. What plants? Those animals might enjoy and they can put those plants in their window sill in in their backyard in their front yard on their fire escape on their porch on their deck they can go into their local open space and begin volunteering doing invasive species removal or planting plants or collecting seed them. Grow the plants So it's a really hands on immediately a satisfying experience because you see the fruits of your work right away so kind of activism that I was doing before was a lot of political pressure which is incredibly important and anybody who engages in it is doing God's work but it also requires a different kind of patients I think because these social systems move quite slowly and we don't often see the fruits of our labor right away The ecological systems you can begin to see the fruits of your labor right away and and there's something that that feels feels deeply deeply gratifying when I think of You know the environmental sort of crisis that we're teetering on the brink of or that we're engaged in right now Both are both are important. The political approach in the political pressure is incredibly important. And so two is the hands on actual work of restoring the damage that that we've done over the centuries and millennia and all this lead. Ut found wildfires wildflowers. Tell me about that spark. I was reading this article in the San Francisco Chronicle about Jerry Brown's Global Climate Action Summit that he was holding in San Francisco bringing bringing together all these leaders to talk about climate change as the trump administration was pulling out of the UN climate accords and at this summit Jerry Brown announced an executive order that California would be carbon negative by the year. Two Thousand Forty six and the article that I read said that this was not possible that we didn't have the technology that the technology that did exist was NASLUND NASLUND and underfunded and too expensive and couldn't be scaled up and not once did any of these articles that I read mentioned plants or habitat restauration or photosynthesis and plants obviously have been sequestering carbon for billions of years and so we need more plants and we need the right plants in the right place that support the ecosystem that those plants are a part of. Now let's talk about the place so I went on your third wildfires. The fires to wildflowers hike in it was at it was in Marin County at. Where was it ring mountain? Okay and why Ring Mountain Well Ring Mountain is a really beautiful example of a relatively intact native perennial grassland so One of the largest largest ecosystems or or the cover the most geography in California are grassland ecosystems. There are also some of the most degraded ecosystems They're just run run thoroughly run over by with invasive annual grasses mostly from Europe and they've lost a lot of their ecosystem functioning because ring mountain has has what's called serpent tonight soils so that the bass rock of a lot of Ring Mountain is Serpentine Rock. which has high levels of naturally existing mercury and mm sulfur and ESTES and other minerals that most plants around the world have a hard time dealing with plants that evolved in the in these conditions can and those are the native plants? Seraing mountain is a really good example of intact perennial grasslands that used to cover all of our Grasslands Slams California and perennial grasses have a really amazing role to play in carbon sequestration because their root system reaches up to ten feet into the ground while their greenery up top. Is You know maybe two feet maximum. So they're actually the carbon that they're sequestering is going into to the ground more than it's going into the air which is what we need. The soil is depleted of carbon and the soil worldwide is a major carbon sink. So that's where the carbon needs to go. Okay so now. Let's go to ring mountain and go on a little walk. Good Good Morning. I'm ILDIKO policy. I'm the founder of wildfires wildflowers. The tagline is restoring California lands for climate stability eighty. What we'll do right now is we're going to do like a round of introductions so you'll say your name how you spend your time and maybe one thing you hope to get out of the hike and then I'll tell you a little bit about what to expect and then we will walk so I will demo? My Name's Ildiko. I work as a native plant nursery. Soon Manager for a nonprofit in the Bayview district in San Francisco called litters for environmental justice. And in my spare time. I do this and I want to have more time to do this. It because I have like huge dreams and I wanNA actually realize my dreams as much as I can and what. I'm hoping to get out of this. Experience is to give have you guys are good experience and I would love if every person walking out of here like understand sort of the logic of wildfires twelve hours and the potential and this feels motivated and engaged and excited and hopeful and empowered. So yeah if I've done a good job that's how you do it. I'll pass it and so I'm Kristen and I'm holding this microphone because I'm producing a podcast about ILDIKO and this new organization that she's founding and bring us together on hikes. The podcast was called is on conservation. I'm also an avid hiker. And some of my taking gang members are here So I can't wait for this hike. Paul and I'm a board member with the year. Beween chapter is in California's San Society -ociety friend goes. I'm very grateful to be here today. And be part of her organization I'm I'm retired so I spend my days Volunteering doing restoration work in the natural areas in San Francisco and I also lead hikes to help Disseminate what's going on within these natural areas. I took a course at city college which was the first Dallas Certification Course in San Francisco. And they're going to be doing more ongoing one so I'm grateful for being nudity. Thanks so tell me who is Paul. And how did you connect with him so so Paul. Bu Scholars an old friend I met him when I was working as a nursery manager for San Bruno Mountain Watch. I'm he was a board member and and eventually became board share of that organization He is native to California or grew up in California. He's lived a at the foot of San Bruno Mountain Mountain most of his adult life and has spent decades Protecting that mountain learning about the mountain learning about the plants there I think his profession has professional career was in Actually water-management and for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission. But he is one of the most dedicated naturalists literalist that. I know and is incredibly knowledgeable. I've learned a lot from him. How do you pick where you conduct your aches? And how do you get these amazing. Biologists eligible naturalists in activists. All join in. And what's what is also the impetus for you to bring these people together. I WanNa bring all these these people together because the scale of the problem requires all kinds of minds and thinking All kinds of expertise all kinds of experience all kinds of personalities as all kinds of points of view so a concrete goal is to politicize the habitat restoration community and actually get them presenting their knowledge. two elected officials and then to inform like the climate change activists about actual ecological needs and opportunities ladies So I've observed that while the climate movement is growing. It's really exciting. It's growing a lot. Young people are getting involved. There's not a lot of knowledge about the importance of ecosystem restoration and the end of the bedrock that needs to be protected and enhanced In order to begin to reverse some the worst effects of climate change or at least start to stabilize it so that's one reason and get them involved just by talking to people meeting people Putting myself myself out there sending emails calling people and then someone might introduce me to another person another person and another person. It's making friends really. It feels like making friends. I choose the locations based on sort of strategically a combination of what are places that we know those who are leading hikes and can can can actually talk about and then who do we want to be there. Is this a convenient place for them to come to. And what are the lessons that we're trying to teach in that specific hike And what is a location that will demonstrate those lessons. Thank you so much everybody for that. That was it was really nice to get a sense of like while you're we're here and who you are and it's cool like how many different worlds we all come from. I'm really happy to have like climate reality. People here at Sunrise People here and people who are working taking on that side of the political spectrum also from the naturalists world. Who aren't doing that and I think like the cross pollination of the two super powerful like we if we can politicize the conservation world and then sort of ecologically informed the climate change already politicized grassroots movement like s that we can really be powerful? So right now James's passing out these plant guides and they're just planning but we'll see They might not be in the stage of development that is photographed wrath so a lot of these are photographed with their flowers so they might not be in their flowering stage. But I think that in and of itself as a really kind of beautiful thing that many people who aren't I'm I'm working with nature or exposed to regularly don't quite get is that you know it's pretty obvious but plans change throughout the year and you know we think we we see one photo of a plant. That had always going to kind of look like that but one of the exciting things begin to become familiar with the nuances. Because it's always changing and it's always informing me me anyway. I learned so much so. That's one one goal that I might have is to begin to show show you all these details and how kind of inspiring and beautiful they are just just in the factor exist it just in their mere existence The other thing I wanna say is standing on me. Walk parents host new Auckland right now now. California was stewarded and cared for managed shared with native peoples for thousands five years before Europeans came and the way that the landscaping is today is in large part because of the stewardship in the care of the native peoples for thousands of years so like one of the first blessings that I like to try to get across that humans are actually an integral part of nature and always have been like we always have a keystone species and the way we choose interact with nature is what determines how you know. Nature can thrive or not so the example. That native people set in California for about ten thousand in years is one of A reciprocal more harmonious relationship. But that also greatly was focused on their needs for for food shelter. Culture spirituality crafts so. It wasn't like this hands off thing that you know sometimes we might have been given that impression As as as students like as kids that there's like kind of a hands off attitude and that's the way that nature survives of humans aren't involved but but that's that's not actually the case and so I'll be pointing Out along the trail. Different examples of plants doing different things that are a direct result of CO evolving with humans for like ten thousand years. So that's one one message We'll learn about like what habitat restoration is. I think a lot of people know but but will like break it down like what is an invasive plant what does the native plant what makes it an invasive plant invasive. I'll talk about the global carbon cycle. I'll talk about how restored like why and how restored ecosystem sequester carbon at higher rates than degraded ecosystems. What is a degraded ecosystem? And then we'll do like plant appreciation like plant love so there's GonNa be a lot of like this is the toy and this is the coffee berry this is the thing and and pointing out the different little beautiful parts of these plants and and they really bring me a lot of joy so I had a Kinda Kinda rough week inside myself and And this morning as I was lying in bed wishing I was asleep. I was like how can this this moment with you guys is be something that heals me. You know And and really. The answer is is just Connecting with you connecting with the land and like noticing those details so so all these things come together. The healing comes with the plants plants with with guidance for how to Stewart Orland in the future from the past the way that it was before done before and then another thing that can be helpful is to call the name of the plants. So can we practice that like. That's an oak tree and you can say Oaktree in the best way to learn them is just continue seeing them and then you'll also begins listen to to feel sort of the differences like when it's dry and there hasn't been a lot of rain they may look one way when there's a lot of shade. They may look another way but even though oh two of the same species could look entirely different. You begin to to kind of have a sense for what is what are we ready. Okay good the let's go. There's a bay laurel here and then there's the coast live oak tree growing up in it which is kind of cool breath. Do you see the difference. The Bay and the coast. Why does that happen well? Sometimes it could could be that the show started and sort of the protected shade of the Bay as a young younger tree and then sometimes some some plants can be nursery three nursery plans for others like the Coyote Bush. Does that a lot where it creates a kind of more welcoming environment for for other plants to thrive when they're young so the Bay Cook with it. 'cause everybody know that. Yeah Yeah. It's yeah it's more potent than the one that you get in the store from. Italy groped you can Freshly then smell it. Maybe not this right here is toy on boy on toy gets red berries. There's another Away for Christmas Sierra Earth very sauce like instead of cranberry sauce made on various Saas. They're not quite. That is sweet but they have a really. This is one thing that I love about. Eating native plants is it's entirely unfamiliar flavors but that are also reminiscent of stuff. I've eaten before it's like this whole world of discovery really cool so there's an example. You know soup plans to the same species looking entirely different than you might ask yourself. Why is that off you know whereas this one growing they're more sun here? Is there more sun there. Maybe this didn't get pollinator. Maybe actually looks to me like the various probably probably already fell. So it's an a quick life cycle. Why why could that be? And that's Kinda what like being. A nationalist is like you. You observe you. Ask questions you observes tomorrow and you begin to kind of come up with theories so you you read the landscape. I hear lots of drugs. Yeah lots of frogs about the Frog House GonNa tell us a little bit about the frogs frogs we would call them tree frogs and they need seasonal wetlands for a tadpole. So this right here is cutting the wetland off from the water so one of the like probably one of the most powerful things we could do for these frogs in this kind of habitat would be to create a corridor. uh-huh maybe put the road above maybe get rid of the road and make people go another way but right now the Right where we started here is the debt he you see a Colbert where the the river was or the creek was diverted underground. So like in the city of San Francisco for example. which is where I live? I don't know something like fifteen or twenty. Different rivers have been coverted. Just when I learned that I was like no. They're just never worked. You know that was like mind boggling ogling to me growing up in the city I thought it was always a place where there was no water but actually humans like to settle where there's water right and then we just diverted. Yeah so what if we what if we brought. Those creeks and rivers to the surface in this is poison oak with your very upright. He's brave touching okay. So that's a good point. The roofs the stems and everything are Have the oil on them but this is oxidized unless you scratched it then the oil come out so so you see a little black marks but it's you don't WanNa be breaking convince. Corporate black marks identified it the oil on. Oh just by the sticks good so the the oil is black. If you if you scratch break open the branch black oil will come out. And that's what makes that's what makes you itchy. So I have a story about poison oak poison oak. Really really bad like we would go out in the field and we'd be collecting Cedar Salvaging or whatever no-one else we get poison oak. I would come home. I would like to all of the protective measures. I would like wash everything and I would still be covered employs no then I started taking a homeopathic remedy of poison oak. I started eating it internally and I stopped getting it. If I knew I was going to be going out. I start taking it a few days before and take a few days after I stopped getting it then I kinda stop taking that and I didn't really get I continued to not get it very much. So says if I had built up an immunity then there was a moment where I was on yearbook but when I land in the island. That's in the middle of the bay bridge or the Bay Bridge goes through it and I needed to collect Buckeye nuts. Have we'll see some buckeye trees. I think on this so I needed I needed the Buckeye not for this specific project and it was. I saw the nuts through these big orange nuts and they were like lying on the in the death through a thicket of poison oak. Like I couldn't get to the nuts unless I went through the poison. Oh I was like I'm GonNa go through the poison oak but I was also kind of scared right and so I said a little prayer to the plant. I was like poison oak. I I love you I respect you. Please don't make me itchy and I went through and I got the nuts and you guys know what happens. I did not Poison oak so now every time I see the plant I say I love you. I respect you sincerely. Please don't make me Itchy so You know I did not grow up with these practices at all. I grew up in the middle of the city. I grew up without a backyard but people humans for most of our existence. Assistance have had those sorts of relationships with plants and I myself experienced when I'm relating to plant it relates back to me and it feels really slowly so like we as humans. We create these big cities or we have been creating these big cities and we we isolate our species in these big big cities. And what one thing that we're doing is we're we're preventing the opportunity for friendship with other living things. We have our pets right. So that Kinda shows knows how much we actually crave friendship with other living. Things is that we also have our dogs. There's also soap route so plant here. This was an important food source for native peoples and then it has. If you see here it has this lake fibrous casings. So it's in the onion family so it's got kind of a casing similar onion but more fibrous abreast and with this they used to make brushes. It also has a really soap like quality. The bulb does if you break off a piece of the ball and mix it with water. It's is literally your whole body with it. It's it's like self that you buy in the grocery store and they also use that as one of their primary fishing tools by pulverizing it. And they would milk the water and the calm waters and as a neuro toxin that would affect the fish and they would come to the surface. But it wouldn't kill him so once the water cleared they would be wouldn't have the effects anymore since I tried eating at one time but I didn't I didn't Cook it long enough and it made my stomach a little funny and my friend who aided vomited so it does it does have SAPPINGTON in it. which is the neurotoxin? And also the the thing that makes it soapy so you have to cook it long. Enough for this happens to be neutralized so so there's like a big learning curve with a lot of these foods. They are edible. So this right here kind of on the edge of the path. Here's your Oh. This is a circumpolar. Plant grows all over. The Northern Hemisphere grows in Europe up in Asia. And it's like one of the most early known medicinal plants that humans used So it can be used has like immune-boosting properties ladies and then the leaves. If you crush them you can put them on a wounded and it will stop the bleeding and it spreads through resumes. Sounds like an underground in stem looking for like New Light and nutrients and then it'll send up a shoot so it's a really amazing way that The plant can reproduce quickly quickly because each new shoot becomes a new plant which is like the power of restoration. Okay I'm GonNa do the what is an invasive plant. What is habitat restoration speech? So we've been walking through. You Know Habitat where I've been pointing out a lot of the native plants because those are the ones that you know. I'm happiest about but we've also awesome passing an incredible number of Invasive species so the reason why plants become invasive. I'll talk about that. We have different climates all over the world right California's Mediterranean Iranian climate. So if you think of different regions in the world where wind has grown generally Mediterranean climate. They're generally wear are invasive species. Come from it's not the universal law but that's like a general kind of pattern so like Australia Chile Mediterranean in Europe South Africa So what happens. Is these plans to evolve with similar climates. So they're they're adapted to the to the amount of water to the amount of sign the amount of moisture in the air to maybe similar soils. Maybe not and they're brought over here sometimes birds or other animals but generally to the degree that humans move around and we continue to move around at greater rates weights and you know trading stocks generally come from human. Sometimes they come in the hooves of cattle or animals that we bring. Sometimes they're like attached to the ship sometimes there so they come from human sometimes intentionally sometimes unintentionally and because they're adapted to the same climate. They're really happy here. But what hasn't happened as you know back in their home they co evolved like all the plants do here they co evolved with the fungus and the diseases and the birds and the mammals and all of these things are also eat those plants so the plants are food like like this is why restoration begins with the plant is because the plants brings the insects sex which means the birds which brings the bigger birds which brings the mammals which brings the lizards springs. So it's like a cascading web so one thing that I think is really beautiful to me about learning about habitat and nature is that it is not linear. It is not one-size-fits-all it is it. Is this like interdependent. Co evolving dynamics system that is constantly reproducing itself in constantly growing and it does this because it's revolves together so the plants and the animals discover little niches. And when you bring a plant from another place that hasn't evolved with the predators into the place that it's at the not plant has is nothing puts it in check. So there's a native grass here a non native grass here the native grasses getting eaten because it's been there for thousands of years and all of the animals no no it's similar to go to a foreign country where you didn't recognize any of the food you wouldn't know what to eat and might get a little hungry right. You have to be shown this native plant is getting eaten and eaten eaten and eaten this invasive plant therefore has more room to grow and soon you get a monoculture of invasive species which equals no food or very little food some species might be able to adapt to it. So that's the problem with it. And when we have just a hillside covered and eucalyptus like you can go under the canopy of Eucalyptus you can listen and you'll actually hear career less. It'll be quieter than if you go into an oak woodlands and open your ears. You'll hear more birds you'll hear more life you'll hear it because that's the food. They Volvo Awesome. So the thing that's really powerful about it is. It doesn't take much to flip it in the other direction and humans can have a really active role to play in that. So you can income and you can spend a few hours or a couple minutes or an entire lifetime like Paulsen doing so I'm pulling up. Invasive species and the native plants will have the seed in the in a c bank in the soil so sometimes there might be a hillside covered in English ivy. where the only thing growing in English ivy you come in and remove the ivy plant anything because the seeds? I've been waiting to be germinated waiting for space and light and nutrients to be able to do their thing. The other thing is actually planting so Christmas collector. The reason why Christians the collector so that she can bring the seeds back to the nursery and grow which is what I do grow the plants and then actually plant the plants out into the open spaces on this mountain. There's a endangered endemic Tiburon Lily that only grows here. That's the other thing. That's so cool about California's just like in the top twenty five biodiversity hotspots in the world which is amazing and then the bay area is even more biologically diverse than other parts of the state eight. A reflection of that is the existence of these species that don't live anywhere else. Like San Bruno Mountain has three different species of man's Anita that don't live anywhere else and then we see that here too one thing I'd like to point out two things Most of the grasses you're standing in our invasive European grasses there are annuals but these are perennial bunch grasses and they co evolved just like that Lily. In the Serpentine Serpentine soils. So when we get a little higher where there's less Leaf litter and stuff that creates this. Topsoil that these European grasses can adapt to you can adapt to the almost pure serpentine soil. So we see like mainly brunch passes. That's a good example of CO evolution with its surroundings. So Paul mentioned the bunch. You can see this. This kind of bunching thing happening this is one plant that came from one seed this this is a perennial plant. It can live up to a hundred years. This looks like elements glaucous which is Blue Wild Rye. And then here all this green stuff this is these these are annual invasive grasses And they live one year and they die after they set their seed in the springtime and then the hillsides sides dry up in the summer. They are no longer alive and they set they set one seed they grow basically one stock and they die in like three or four months so all of Lee's most of these came from Europe they came as feed for cattle or in the cattles hooves. And it's an ecosystem type conversion that happened really quickly in California where it went from hillsides covered in these long lived perennial grasses with like other perennial Forbes Forbes are non woody perennial plants perennial is a plant that lives multiple years so the grasslands were covered in these perennial grasses with flowering Forbes and then annual wildflowers flowers and the color that existed in California. He's rolling hills was was different than it is today. So you know like you drive down the one on one or whatever and you're like all really familiar with the Golden Alden Rolling Hillsides and dappled oak forests right well. Before the Spaniards came in the summertime. It was more of a like sort of gray green blue color. There would be dieback like this but but it wasn't like that gold dead look and also the wildflower displays where there's accounts from the early California's settlers. The talk about California like this garden and they talked about the like the rolling hillsides changing color through the year so like wildflowers white purple Blue Yellow Orange Pink Red That would be as their bloom. Time time comes and goes depending on the species. These are the colors that we would see throughout California With this long lived always at least kind of green plants. So that's like that's to get paint a picture of what it what it could be. These grasses live up to one hundred years they have deep root systems. Their root systems can can go up to ten feet into the earth. The annual invasive grass from Europe lives one year is. I'm trying to pull out once you you can see route. It's like an inch and a half two inches. Maybe a little longer. Because it's springtime in route down but it probably won't go further the mess so all plants sequester carbon right all plants photosynthesis they sequester carbon dioxide from the air. They use the carbon for their growth. Both down into the ground up into the air and they they release ox or up into the sky they release oxygen as a byproduct. Which is what we've read so plant? All plants voters synthesize. All plants use the carbon for their growth. This plant does this plant. It does but imagine a plant so the global carbon cycle right we there's four carbon sinks on the planet there is the Hydros fear which is major bodies of water. There's the lithosphere. which is the earth's mantle and crust? There is the pedestals which is the soil. And there's the atmosphere which is the air so there's those are all all the places that are carbon storage places because of human activity. The carbon has been released into the atmosphere and then what is in the atmosphere also the water sex it up so right now of two out of the four carbon sinks on the planet are totally maxed out like we have human civilization. If you call it that I'd I'd like I have problems with that word. But anyway if we go back. Twelve thousand years. When agriculture started in the Fertile Crescent there was two hundred and seventy five parts per million of carbon urban dioxide in the atmosphere? Now we have four hundred five parts per million one hundred thirteen as of January twenty. Okay four hundred and thirteen eighteen parts per million of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Which is why you know? We're having these extreme weather events warming you you know it right you use you know the dia reports. The soil L. is is depleted of carbon though the soil does not have carbon in it to the extent that it did before and that's because of the agricultural practice of tilling so they turn the soil oil over the soil that had carbon in it becomes oxidized it turns into carbon dioxide and it goes into the atmosphere so it actually tilling releases carbon into the atmosphere and then also obviously the burning fossil fuels takes the carbon out of the soil and releases it into the atmosphere plants. Put the carpet back into the soil. They put into their bodies and they also put it into the soil. Anything with Wong routes that goes down. You know tens of feet is going to put more carbon in the soil than something that has system. That's like two inches long so if we were Astore California grasslands to be native perennial grasslands. There's a tremendous amount of carbon that we can be sequestering. Some of the ecosystems in California with the highest carbon sequestration Asian and storage potential trees store carbon. Quite as well because they have so much mass on top so if a fire were to sweep through or if the trees or cut down then all of that carbon that went into building. They're beautiful canopy can also be released into the atmosphere whereas if a fire swept through here you know we've got about about two feet that's gonna go but ten feet potentially staying in the ground so there's tremendous potential to sequester carbon through habitat restoration through habitat restoration of native perennial grasses through restoring wetlands. Those systems have a higher carbon sequestration and storage rate than other systems. Okay so we know. All plants sequester carbon right so when we're planting the plants. We're planting the plants for the insects for the birds for the entire system. We're not just putting this Rosebush here and you know and then it's an isolated Rosebush. There's all these things that have interdependent co evolves relationships and it's that's those relationships that create the functioning of the cycle so if we're restoring habitat were helping to restore a carbon cycle locally. If we do that on a global scale we can help restore a carbon cycle globally and the other really good news about it is that it feels really good to do this. Habitat arrestation work and to be out connecting nature. I ever really cool thing about bunch. Grass Fed not only for carbon purposes but bunch grasses because their roots are so along They can actually pull water from deeper in the soil and bring it up to the surface for other plants to us. So in drought years Habitats that have a higher proportion of bunch. Grasses actually do much better not just the bunch grasses but also the other plants around it because they have access to more water during harder times tmz restored. Ecosystems like restored balanced functioning cycles are more resilient in the face of extreme weather so there's all of these benefits to restoring Habitat Abbott besides just carbon sequestration. And we'll talk more about that so we're going to stop and we're GONNA be talking about likened so were hiking on San Bruno Mountain which is fransciscan sandstone and quartz crystal outer part of Mountain. And maybe I could do a little geological talk and we get to the top but like those rocks and like these serpent tonight rocks. He's would be greenish bluish white streets if you saw someone. We came up the hill where it got broken. Did anybody notice the serpent tonight. The actual colors but because it's covered with Lichens and there were probably thirty different types of lichens growing on this rock right here with the exception of these mosses so these are mosses but all these different colors. The grays the blacks you've seen orange orange in some areas these these organisms. They have a symbiotic relationship. There's three organisms that A makeup the structure structure of these lichens it's fungus and fungus are like the structure and they take nutrients and minerals out of the air. Sulfur sulfur in particular. That's one of the primary food sources that it takes out of the air and then algae and the algae is like the what what creates the photosynthesis to support the structure of fungus and the algae. And now they're they found on a new organism that exists within the structure. It's a yeast and I'm not sure that type of yeast did it is but these are organisms organisms and and they're an indicator species that the air is not even moderately polluted because it was moderately polluted the air. These wouldn't survive. So they're they're an indicator species re example reading the landscape. Like we're reading. The air through the likened right here passing around in your hand north of has use now on it right old old man's beard I think is another name for it and and That also has medicinal properties. I think women seized Menstrual pad it has like a natural antibacterial it. How do you feel about doing silent hike until we get to this big grandmother Oak trees for that? Yeah well listen and look and go inside ourselves having been listening to people's squishy footsteps especially since yes. I'm recording the sound. I noticed less birth then when we were down below like when we first started the hike even when we got out of the car was like oh birds activity and then on our way up. Here is still guesses and Swaggie it. Might it'll be monitored more bird center you know. There's no trees just out just grasses. There's not like cover for the birds. Sir Yeah places for them to perch and in the springtime when the moth larvae are emerging in these oaks in particular this is where the primary have attached four Birdsville to get worms for their babies and GRUBBS. Oak Trees are the host plants for something like twenty or twenty five different species of moths and butterflies. See Plant One oak tree. And you're providing half for that many numbers of just in the lepidopterists the top terrace family which is a moth better family. Like not even counting all the other stuff that and then of course. The the caterpillars are the main food source for baby baby birds so baby. Birds need caterpillars. If you don't have the plant you don't have the butterfly the Caterpillar. You don't have the birds and then how do you think this triest. I hundreds of years old probably like I don't know who three hundred years and oaks remaining because like Christian said about the grasslands how the native grasses with their roots so deep Bring up water. Oak Tree spent half their life living in the other half dying and their root system can go out. Three hundred feet ate from the tree and in the summertime when it's really dry those root systems dia back but they create these tubes of of dead dieback which ages water resource and then the roots reemerged back into those in times like she was saying they bring water to other nearby surrounding trees and shrubs other people have said that if you have an oak tree in your backyard. You're not gonNA starve because the eight forms are like highly nutritious. Tristesse high protein food source so California Indians all over California. There's how many species of Oakland California does anybody know. I would say like twenty thirty or more species of Oakland California. All of them produce acorns all of his aprons or edible somewhere like more prized as food source than others. Like different species have different tastes But this past fall out in the fall this past fall Alana and me and Leandra Denise. WHO's over there? when acorn gathering and acorn processing did acorn in processing and Acorn leaching and to be able to eat the ACORNS. It's a long process but it's gluten free gluten free foods so like what if instead of importing Almonds that are like high water use. What if we just maintained and supported and stewarded and cared for our existing oak forests and harvested those acorns and use those to eat so part of part of the whole client suite of climate change? Solutions is going to involve like recently our agricultural system and I'm really excited about different like native plants. We could begin to incorporate into our diets in a way that would be responsible. Not In the way that we've done it where the plant them on. We like bulldoze make everything like a blank slate and then plant the thing and strict rose so that we can harvest more but if the goal is harmony and it's not speed and it's not efficiency and it's not profit but if it's like more goodness everyone then it doesn't no matter who takes longer because the trees dotted around to harvest the corns or anything else. We should say about the oak trees and was it burned his is arson or can't fire or Wildfires we now probably was the wildfire California evolves with the fire regime that has was much more frequent than what we have now and it's because native peoples used fires really prominent stewardship tool or care for the landscape tool it would open the under under story forest for example so they could hunt easier because of that happening over thousands of years that you go system grew to depend on fire so there are certain plants that it won't open their seed pod unless there's really high heat so those plants won't be able to germinate without a fire. Oak Trees have also have evolved with fire. The fire will cleanse the sort of the mosses in the excess kind of stuff that likes to grow on the bark That helps the health of the tree so so native peoples that depending on the ecosystem they would set fire every like two to twenty years. I'm so that's one reason why this campaign has called wildfires. Twelve flowers is because as you know wildfires or something that are becoming more and more frequent and more and more severe and more and more scary right and yet we need fire and fires part of the restoration toolbox and after fire. There's also fire following species so those same those same plastic can't open their seed pod unless fire happens. Those are called fire following speeches so after fires botanist go out. They get super excited. Because what are we going to see now so wildfire wild flowers come also there's many some invasive species that are adapted to fire like French broom is one but there's a lot that are not so the the fire can prioritize and and foster the native species over the invasive species cal. Fire does have grants that is like fuel reduction grants. So that's another thing. Is that fire. If you are burning regularly there won't be as much dead build up like like you. Can even you know. There's these dead bridges on the under story because they're not getting as much much light so that that's not the best example of fuel build up because it's hire A better exactly what fuel buildup would be like essentially the stationary fuel ladder fuels fuels fuel. That so this will burn and it'll send it'll it'll send the flames higher into the canopy and that's when when the older trees start to become threatened so I'm cal fire does have some funding for fuel reduction a lot of the field reduction that they do. Because people are so afraid of fires is just like slashing and cutting which is not horrible But it can be bad if it's not done with an ecologically trains mind. Yeah and the tribes are definitely involves in in in trying to both restore their own land and spread this knowledge. That's something that I should have said from the very beginning. They need to be involved like out of the gate and there's areas where fire departments and tribes are working together. But it's half is happening like isolated right. There's not like a overall California policy that is um funding that that's prioritizing that. Yeah let's keep going the serpent tonight which we refer to Serpentine Serpentine Grasslands. What we're on here is a metamorphosed? Morphing rock debts created under extreme pressure but low temperature. And it's got a lot of magnesium minute and of course naturalists hostess and Schyster which is blue and green chased and Chromium and nickel. So if you ever see Serpentine Shiny. That's the the metals that are in it One of the other my favorite formation stat read layered rock. That's radio LERIAN SHIRT AND RADIO LEERING IN CHURCH. There's two types there's Radio Larry That were singled. celled microscopic see creatures that had a silica body and it took a thousand years for one centimeter of those layers to be created. And so you think about the time that it took to create these. He's massive hillsides that we see of church as as well as in the Marin headlands and there's another one that's diatomaceous Mesa's shirt from diatoms which were singled cells algae's that were disclosed glasslike organisms. That were in the ocean. But what's really interesting about all these formations is. They came from down near the equator West of the Panama Canal. And they moved up here on the Farallon plate which is now underneath the Pacific Plate. So if everybody's walked over in the Santa Cruz mountain range all the way up through the Marin headlands. That's all on the Pacific Plate. That's all moving north. And that's over the fairlawn plate now and it's really interesting. As far as time in what's happened like San Bruno Mountain Mountain Desk Franciscan sandstone on the outside with quartz crystal and the inner part is Gray wacky and the inner part is younger within the outer part. And if when you scoop ice cream and an edit roles like that San Berno Mountain was actually turned upside down. So it's it's pretty amazing in how geological features have formed but This is really special. You know the the They travelled a long way to get here in California state rock And it's also some of you might have heard this but it's when it Because of its chemical composition Serpentine based soil has like you have to have specific. Plans have to have specific adaptations to be able to thrive in that soil so a lot of time. Serpentine Grasslands Ostlund more prestige than other grasslands from with other bedrock soils So this this mountain can be like fairly fairly like a pretty good example of what The grasslands looks like before depending on where you're at this is our last little meeting spot. I just want to kind of lay out the vision for wildfires wildflowers. One more time before we part ways it started in September twenty eighteen. I was house sitting in this fancy house in the in Pacific heights and they got the newspaper delivered to their door like super old school style and I was eating breakfast. Now's reading the San Francisco Chronicle and there is this article about The Global Climate Action Summit the Jerry Brown was holding at that time. I'm so he held that summit when trump pulled us out of the climate accord's And he made an announcement at that summit that California would be that he was passing an executive order to have California be carbon negative by the year. Two thousand forty six meaning that we would be sequestering. More carbon than we're emitting and the whole whole threats of that article was like we don't have the technology like we don't know how to do this. This isn't possible. Even framing and his technology was really bizarre to me. So I read that article and I read like maybe four or five other articles covering the same event that all had the same as it was like the Wall Street Journal. The New York Times like on small small online publications that all had the same same thrust of like. We don't know how to do this. We do bioenergy fuel crops or massive Ocean Algal blooms or direct air capture plants like these giant like concrete things that have these big fans that are like turning in carbon dioxide and sequestering it and putting it into like building blocks and nobody mentioned photosynthesis. Nobody mentioned plants S.. Nobody mentioned habitat restoration. Like pulling out like are you fucking guys and at that moment I was like. It's gotTa be restoration. I was excited to Z.. Like carbon negative even being talked about as a possibility and that we had you know a political will enough that it was going to be put forth as an executive order but the needs to turn into legislation so the executive orders set. And then legislators are tasker hopefully To go and like write laws that are like this is how it's going to happen and the main way that it needs to happen. Reducing emissions like we're doing with like technological advances and like retooling our energy infrastructure but also through carbon sequestration through habitat restoration and the thing with habitat restoration is that it provides all these other benefits. First of all it feels good studies show that Serotonin serotonin rises in our bodies when our hands are in the soil that we heal quicker and faster when we can see a tree outside her hospital window. Then when there's nothing. They are except for fluorescent lights. In our faces. Social Emotional physical development of children is enhanced with regular access to nature. So there's that then there's also Mitigating extreme weather like when we have wetlands protecting our cities those wetlands act as a sponge for storm surge. I'm they also sequester. Carbon it really high rates We talked a little bit about fire and grasslands like Perennial grasses that are alive in the summertime are going to burn slower than invasive missile annual grasslands that are just covered in thatch also the bunched nature of the grasses that the fire will sort of jumped from one grass to the other rather other than sweeping through just like you know dried up tender. There's like extreme weather mitigation carbon sequestration. Like just personal human wellbeing. They're securing our food supply by having more habitat for pollinators we've all heard about colony collapse disorder. Right there's the sixth grade extinction that's happening. How do we slow down the sixth grade extinction? We create habitat for the animals. So that they don't go extinct we do. Those things like corridors whereas talking about what the butterfly so that those butterflies don't go extinct so to me. It's a no brainer. And the goal of this project. Wildfire swallow flowers is to build grassroots momentum for these kinds of solutions to like create bridges between like the scientific community the grassroots climate change people. The policymakers and really make a groundswell for this kind of thing. And and like so. What I imagine is like you know we can send people to the moon? We can mobilize massive wars like we can create a weapon that could wipe out the planet so we have tremendous power. And and it's just it's a question of where do we want to put it. It's not a question of is it possible. It's a question of we have choice. And we can decide the we're going to put it in the direction of more love and more goodness us and like more life or in the direction of continued destruction you know and the both are happening at the same time right now. So it's not it's not either or at at this moment but I would like to push it more in the direction of the love and the goodness and the life and the feel good sir. tonen California's the fifth largest economy. We have this executive order put forth we have legislation coming like hundred percent renewable energy by twenty thirty right like we have this legislation coming. There is momentum there's also dire need. California has a lot of influence California's the fifth largest economy. We have silicon valley. We have Hollywood. We have probably the most progressive governor. I've ever seen in my lifetime. I've lived here my whole life If California could begin to legislate actual real solutions and if these actual real solutions can begin to take hold than other states and other nations are going to take notice. I I imagine all coming together and creating not abundance and creating that that possibility for something beautiful and connecting to nature and being mm fed by it being nourished by it and that that being the engine that like helps us go forward and work together and find the solutions and and not give up. You guys don't do that with me with as we have listeners. Worldwide Wii on is on conservation. And I know that these wildfires to wildflower hikes or walks or interpretive experiences that you're offering you know are based aced locally here in the San Francisco Bay area but what would you say to somebody who is inspired by what they're hearing today and potentially wants to who get involved in something like this habitat restoration or you know this kind of coalition building environmental coalition building in their own in communities. What advice do you have to offer them? Well Habitat needs to be restored everywhere and it is happening everywhere. I know China's very involved right now some big initiatives to restore habitat. There's like a billion tree planting a billion trees thing that the face salesforce sky just so it's happening everywhere. You're so wait you said the salesforce guy is planting a billion trees mark. BENEF- is at the salesforce guy. Yeah that yeah mark. Benny off his has put forth the proposal to fund the planting of a billion trees around the world which is great trees are fantastic. Patrice aren't the only thing. Everybody talks about trees because we think of the Amazon is being the lungs of birth but trees need under story. Trees need shrubs. They need vines. They need grasses. They made flowers they need so actually we have to. We have to restore Eka we have to restore the entire hire system. Not just not just plant trees not to diss the idea. I would say one of the first things that someone can do is learn where your local the open spaces are learn who is managing those spaces and offer assistance. And then also just begin to open your eyes and your ears. More when you're when you're walking around outside aside begin to notice. The plants begin to notice the sounds of the birds begin to notice signs of animals Begin to slow down a little bit and attuned into the natural world. That's around us because it is around us even when we're in a city And there's ways of inviting that world into the city more there's ways of caring for the world outside of the city whatever really ignites your passion and then also there's there's the realm of advocating for more funding for habitat restoration than that it become something that is a global priority and that can exist that That advocating can happen with groups that already exist or it can happen by going to those that are in power in positions of power. And telling them what we need. I'm personally very inspired by the work that you're doing and I. I enjoyed the experience that I had an wildfires wildflowers L. Flowers and so if you could just tell some listeners who might also feel this sense of inspiration how can get in touch with you and find out more about your organization and how they can help the. If they're local to get involved we can go to the website. It's wild fires to wildflowers dot. Org there's no numbers it's all written out. You can sign up on the email. Sign up list there. You can donate. There's a time to donate We have monthly meetings. Also you can come to the next hike and you can contact me through my website. There's a contact page fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time to co I look forward to going out and experiencing nature and restoring habitats with you again. Thank you so much. Kristen Special thanks to Ildiko Ponti of wildfires to wildflowers and naturalist Paul Skull of San Bruno Mountain. Watch the music. You're listening to is darkness and light by Chris Collins of indie music box dot com. If you liked this episode please make a pledge on Patriots on dot com slash wildlands collective and follow is on conservation on facebook. And don't forget to head over to wildlands INC DOT ORG hyphen one. Ninety three three for the show notes. This episode was produced and edited by me. Kristen tell us. Thanks for listening.

California San Francisco Europe San Francisco Chronicle Oak Tree San Bruno Mountain Jerry Brown Kristen City College Paul founder Golden Gate Park Oak Woodland Ildiko Toco Hurricane Katrina NASLUND NASLUND
Grow Your Own Apothecary Garden

Sustainable World Radio- Ecology and Permaculture Podcast

1:04:05 hr | 2 months ago

Grow Your Own Apothecary Garden

"You're listening to a sustainable world radio. Podcast sustainable world radio. Brings you in depth interviews news and commentary about positive solutions to environmental challenges. Solutions that adhere to the permaculture ethics of earth. Care people care fair share. Are you interested in learning more about permaculture projects around the globe. How to plant a food forest restorative design or ethnobotanist than stay tuned for sustainable world radio. I'm your host and producer. Chill clue ta my guest. Today is the latest dean. Elena has the last. Decade is an organic farmer and native plant gardner elena and her partner danny or the owners of night heron farm an herbal medicine company and see sa. Elena danny also grow organic. Cut flowers for market and offer a flower. Csi as well. Elena believes that growing and producing local medicine as a way to contribute to a more. Just and sustainable world. You can visit elena online at night. Heron farm dot org welcome to sustainable world radio elaine. I'm so glad to have you here. Oh thank you so much for having me. it's so exciting and i Know that you grow your herbal offerings in what you call a magical oak woodland garden. Can you just tell our listeners. A just a few things about your farm that you'd think we'd like to know sure so we grow out the crow five probably just about two miles inland from the coast We're about twelve minute. Drive away from the coast. And so we're really influenced by the coastal fog the marine layer And the side. We live on the north facing side of the mountain. So we're surrounded by a really healthy mature oak forest that has survived a number of wildfires at this point So we are carved out basically the only to flat sunny spots on the property that we rent and have slowly been feeding the soil and creating pretty wild eclectic garden so we have a mix of native plants and a lot of the food that we eat and then the medicinal plants that we use for teas and tinctures all in the same garden and aesthetic is very wild and it's very informed by the forest since it really just you know five or six feet away from a pretty and diverse with land so our garden is home to a lot of really cool in fact and butterflies and wild birds that are really attracted to what is kind of a messy very organic looking garden. Oh that sounds wonderful. And i wish i could be there Live after covid. We will definitely. I'd love to come out and see it. And how many different herbs would you say that you grow their. Oh gosh Well some things we have just one or two of that are more experimental or for personal use and those are really incorporated into kind of are dense foods scape and then we also have a few more straightforward rows of medicinal plants of the same species. So i wouldn't say probably Maybe like twenty five or thirty. Different kinds of medicinal plants Not all of them that we're using to make products that we sell but some of them just because we love them or do we want the near us. Were using them for ourselves as well. It must be so nice to be out there in that semi wild herbal garden. And i bet you can just really feel that. Medicinal plant energy. Yeah it's so sweet and it's so wonderful to feel like we're also making a home for a lot of the woodland animals like we have a quail family that lives in her garden and take stuff baths and eats the camomile all the time and we have living right about us and it definitely feels like A really dumps and diverse part of the forest and a lot of ways. That's okay you have very calm. Quayle we all. We always joke that. The gophers are just meditating underground. Because they're eating so many really calming just plant wink. Gosh yes the gopher in my yard is chow down. I it was the Nicotiana the night blooming tobacco and then he went for the mother war. I think it was called the eighth that whole thing. So maybe that was an antidote for the tobacco. I don't know but so today we're going to be chatting a lot about some of your favorite herbs and also how to start an apothecary garden but before we go in that direction. I just wanted to ask you. Why are you an advocate. Why do you suggest that people Grow some of their own herbal medicine. Yeah that's a great question I think a lot of the same reasons the same reasons that it feels so special to grow even some small part of your own food It's just such a really lovely and inspiring process from planting a seed to being able to make yourself food or medicine. And i feel like our all of our human lineages go connected to the plant world and and being part of that just feels like part of the healing of medicinal plants me We're super fortunate. That i think than just in the last five years or so. There's become a lot more Small scale organic or farms that do sell their dried herbs in bulk around the country and so it used to be that very often. You were importing herbs from abroad and they were maybe kind of old and not as fresh and I think even that has changed in the last little while so the argument of you know bill more local the better still certainly exists. But maybe isn't quite as pressing. So i just feel like a huge part of it is just being able to work with the plants and i feel like both myself and my partner. Neither of us went to herbs school. We did a apprenticeship. August more earn firm where we learned a whole lot but a lot of what we've learned. Just come from working with these plants in the garden and watching where they grow and how they grow and understanding those habits as a clue to how they work in our own bodies so you can learn a lot. from from growing the clamp. That's so wonderful. So it really is for people who have never grown any medicinal herbs. I just wanted to bring up that culinary. Herbs are quite low. And i've i've found that often they're one in the same absolutely. Yeah i think a part of me. When i first started to grow a lot of these plants it was just. It's always exciting. If you're a plant nerds grow new clemson. So i was most excited by the kind of like tricky obscure plants and it took me a while to kind of come back around and realize that a lot of the culinary herbs that are really readily available and easily to grow or just as strong medicine like rosemary and basil and culinary sage percy's launch either all incredibly healing plants to exactly and we'll learn about some of those in in a bit so before we start talking about plans. I'd love to chat a bit about growing practices for medicinal herbs and you mentioned something You came to an herbal exchange meeting Which was a group we started. That was really fun and you gave a wonderful talk. And you mentioned. I think it was benevolent neglect. When you grew medicinal or i always think that. When i'm like i'm not gonna water you tolsey. Sorry can you tell us what that means. Yeah yeah i'm glad you remembered that Yeah so with medicinal herbs in particular a lot of the plant chemicals that are really medicinal and healing are initially the plant Response to structure its attempt to heal itself. So in fact if you you know limit the water or don't worry too much about amending the soil. You're creating an environment. In which the medicinal plants will really be challenged to grow and heal themselves and those same chemicals are also what worked in our body as medicine. So we're so fortunate but a lot of these medicinal plants are so so easy to grow and their madison actually is stronger and more potent if you benevolent neglect them as you said so not worrying too much about like letting there be periods of drought and not worrying too much if bugs or birds or nibbling on your plant because all of those experiences actually really make medicine stronger interesting and so as far as soil preparation because we know that so important when we're growing at least annuals right emmanuel vegetables how would you prepare. Say you have a little patch In your yard or garden. And you wanna gruesome medicinal. How would you prepare the soil for that. Yeah so most plants grow just aren't going to need as much for as the vegetables that we grow In general they just a little closer to being there. They're wild plant cells and so they do really well and Less rich soil than vegetables. Do we still add either compost or really aged manure In this area where we live and grow horse old horse minorities is readily available and people are actually really happy if you come in got it from their places But we we make our own compost and then we supplement with really aged men are so we'll add that to the soil The garden that we started with was pretty intense really dense clay. Like i remember when we first moved to replace. We had to pick ax into the soil to even open up. The crust of the earth. And i was a little intimidated by dot coming from the south east. I grew up in north carolina where the foil is just really rich from being a forest for so long but the clay here is really responsive to compost. And we've just made really really lovely soil only with compost in our home guard on So we'll open the earth we either with. We have a little walk behind tiller or just a shovel or fading fork and then layer pretty generous like four to six inches of compost or old manure and the soil. And then stir that into the soil either by hand or with the work behind tiller And begin to add water. So we'll irrigate a little bit and get the soil microorganisms kind of woken up and ready to go so. I think it makes more sense when you're thinking about building healthy soil to think about feeding microorganisms in the soil. Because that's really what what you're doing if you're using regenerative or organic growing practices So make organisms love that rich wet soil So compost has just been our best friend and we started with pretty rough soil. And it's just gotten better and better every year. Oh that's so great. Yeah awesome especially like i said them and decimal herbs that just don't require as much feeding we've also started to plant into where we haven't added any compost. We have in the past but maybe we didn't over the winter we just cover crops and that's been working well too so but i would recommend adding compost. When you begin. That's great to know. And then do you ever add any like amendments as you're growing the plants or compost tea or anything or not so much. You know what. I really don't I would for struggles compost. Tea is really amazing But for the herbs once the ground we really kind of just let them do their thing. It's easy gardening. I love it and then as far as cover cropping can you. I would imagine you could grow like a cover. Crop lake Oats or something and then actually harvest for your medicine as well absolutely we do. Yeah so milky haute are yes from our winter. Cover crop We do a a winter. Rest for all of this oiling. Our garden other than a little bit that we reserve just grow some winter veggies So we do a mix of fava beans which then will also eat in the spring and peas and not oats and so as far as watering. We share a mediterranean climate. And we know that not. All listeners are in a mediterranean climate but just as far as watering goes do you have a rule of how dry you actually let the herbs get or do you do it by feel or what's your What do you have any tips for ya i do. I feel where we live is just so variable So here in southern california since we're coastal influence. A lot of april may june july and be quite foggy and maybe the fog will break in the afternoon and we live in finland it can also get quite hot in the summer. So it's kind of all over the place so i always do it by feel So all we mulch our most of our garden. And so i'll reach under the molds which is just this thick layer of either wood chips or straw that protects the oil surface from drying out. So it conserves water and again just makes a happier home for all those micro organisms so reach under there and generally. I won't irrigate until the top two inches. Feel dry to the touch. So i definitely let the garden soil dry out before i water and in fact i think it's not just a really essential best practice in this area where we need to be really conservative with our water use and again that is watering and the introduction of a certain amount of dressed for the plant makes them stronger even in the summer. When it's getting quite hot we probably just era gate mews drip irrigation We irrigate really hot. Maybe every five days but when it's kind of just a normal summer day we're probably irrigating just once a week and sometimes even stretching it out if it stays foggy for most of the morning and is kind of dewey will maybe just irrigating every ten days more in the spring and fall. And how long do you run. the irrigation. Usually about three hours. That would save on water. Absolutely yeah so. I think the rule of thumb and even most veggies are like this but A deep throat. Infrequent watering is a much better With urinate than an everyday shallow water It's good preventative. Health few because a lot of summer diseases and a lot of insects are attracted to overly moist conditions and a garden. So you're being proactive. Keep your guard in a little drier. I'd better go turn the hose off. Now i'm kidding. I think i i'm guilty. It's you it's yeah feels like you're showing love to the plants. They giving them water but yeah it's actually good to let them dry out a little. Is there anything else you wanna share with listeners. About growing their words before we move on. Not worry i mean it it. It's really as simple as we just said. They really do. Well a little world for themselves. They're very easy and so for harvesting. Do you prefer dried or fresh plant material to make your medicine I a part of me prefer fresh. But i don't really think that there's a difference in their medicinal activity I love fresh things. I just love the experiences putting fresh living plants into a jar but with dried plants. If you dry them well which we will talk about Your it's just as good as fresh material in that. That is really the hard part. Right is drying well. And i have tried all ways. Do you have favorite ways to dry plants to ensure that they don't get moldy. Yeah that that was probably. But i felt the most intimidated about when i first started growing. Medicinal herbs because Yeah i was just so worried about things or rotting and it took me a while to trust myself But it really is something where you can really use and trust your senses to let you know when plants are fully dry. So we it's really important. I would say the most important thing to remember about drying clamps is that they should be dried out of the sun. They should be in a totally dark environment. So we harvest a lot of our plant when it's sunny and warm especially for our leaf and flower crops. The heat of the day. We'll bring a lot of those essential oils to the surface and makes the medicine than just a lot stronger but once they're taken away from the plant to dry. It's really important to keep them in a cool dark environment so or not not necessarily cool. I shouldn't so a dark environment So we turn our greenhouse into a drying shed in the summer by covering the entire structure was really thick light-blocking tarts so there's really no son getting in and that's the most important thing is just not to draw your herbs in direct sunlight It's also really important to us big screens. So that there's airflow all around the plant and we do only one layer of plants on a screen so we never do sic piles of plant because especially a lot of herbs that are really high and volatile oils. Like tolsey or lemon bombs if they're To densely sack can rock really quickly. Because there's all that oil and they'll be So that's really important to do. Just a single layer and it's all about touch to after a certain point like people get very technical but really your sensors can tell you. One plant is fully dried and a dry plant of plant. That's ready to be stored will really just crumble off the stem to the touch. So we harvest toll plants will remove the stems after they're dry in a process that's called garbling and so. We know that it's time to do that. When the leaves. Chris naturally crumble off the stem and wash the plant material before you laid out to dry or not no. We don't know the times i've done that. It seems like they don't dry as quickly. And i've had mold totally. Yeah i mean yeah. There's definitely insects and dirt and all of these things but I think it's better not to wash herbs. I oh my god are good for you and do you Save seeds at all from your plants. Yeah yeah we definitely do A lot of what we grow our annual herbs and they're really clamping themselves but so we also let things go to seed in our field. Because i would say we just rented a new field That is closer to the coast where we're also growing medicinal plants We're still killing there but in our older more established gardens. We're not really telling anymore so. A lot of plants just reappear every spring on their own But we you save seeds as well a lot of the minimal urge that we grow are really vigorously seed producing and they're really easy to save the from. I love this colangelo colangelo barge and come free just pop. It's like oh hi friends your back. It's great no know. A lot of medicinal herbs are basically just weeds. And they'll come back over quick and whether you want them or not. But i will let let's start talking about your ideal apothecary garden and we know that people live in different regions so these plants may not be able to grow where you are but there's usually similar plan that would grow in your region because i really believe that the medicine we need is outside of our door And so how do you Elena decide what to grow in your garden. Yeah we are really focused on. I would say in particular on plants that really help our bodies to deal with stress and anxiety. It just seems like a lot of the plant. That people need in this moment that i think also just in in modern life as it is right now So we have a lot of plant for stress and anxiety and for changing how our bodies are triggered by stress. We have a lot of plants for sleep And we're so fortunate that there's even with just like eight or ten plants in your garden. You can have a pretty diverse amount of medical actions available to you because a lot of medicinal herbs have multiple uses. Which when i first started to learn about them was felt pretty intimidating or overwhelming or confusing. That plant could do so many different things on some of them kind of seemed opposite. But i think that's really just a reflection of the complexity of plant bodies of our human bodies and something else. I should also say is kind of no matter. What a book says the plant goes. You should always listen to your body. I and if something does or doesn't feel good you should really honor that and pay attention to that So that aside we have really focused. We rent where we are So in the future a lot of much more long lived perennial herbal medicines. That i'm really excited to grow when we're somewhere more permanently. But in the meantime we've mostly focused on really easy to grow annual herbs with a diversity of of function lusa. Let's let's talk about some of your favorite herbs to grow. What do you want to start with. What's one of your faith. My favorite plant is tulsi or holy basil Toasty is originally from india. But in our experience has done really well even first farming up in northern california on the coast where it's quite cool and foggy basically year round and even though toasty is a tropical herb it did really really well even in that climate So i've tolsey is just so easy to grow and even just one plant will provide you with so much medicine through a growing season It's also just a really lovely plan and definitely one of the most beloved plant by pollinators in our garden. The tulsi is always covered with native. Bumblebees and foraging honeybees and things small. And it's just the hyperactivity. During the growing season a lot of medicinal herbs are really really supportive to pollinators as well. So if you're including medicinal herbs into an existing landscape or adding few your vegetable garden. They're also just amazing companion plants for the plants. You might already have around you and just make your. Your garden goes to them not much more diverse and welcoming to insects But he is just such an amazing every day or i think most of the plants that i wanted to talk about today are all plant that you can take publicly. So they're plants that you can't take too much of And they are really complementary to any kind of pharmaceutical or over the counter medicine that you might be on. They're not gonna mess up any sort of care regimen you already have. They're just a really great addition And tulsi is just this amazing or where you are able to take it every day. It works better and better in your body. It's one of the attack. Dejan the easiest to grow so dr jones are kind of medicinal herbs that is relaxing and soothing here nervous system but maybe even more importantly will actually work within your endocrine system and your hormone regulation to alter how your body responds to stress in the first place so their plants. That will help. Well you're having a stress reaction but they're also plant that the more consistently you're able to take them the more robust your response to stress will become And i think those are just such important plant for all of us have in our daily lives right now Obviously a lot is happening in the world right now and stress over time is actually really harmful to all different kinds of our bodies. Systems are nervous Our digestive system our immune system. And i think the more that we're able to support healthy stress response the better off. We are and pulpy as just such a simple way to do that. Tolsey seats he is delicious. And you can just grow one little toasty plant outside your front door on your porch and walk outside and sniff enough t to drink. Every day get their amazing and just being around the plants and with the rumors of the plants. I stress reliever yeah. It's supposed to be as one of the cornerstones of ours. Vedic medicine and indio which is just such a profound many thousands of years old way plant and human interactions and tulsi is really really revered not healing tradition for kind of being the mother of all plants and and yeah just such a special plant. I know tulsi wonderful. And i know there's a few different types you can grow. Yeah yeah so we most of what we grow in our garden is a kind. What is it called temperate polcy and so it's an annual but there's also several perennial forms of colty There's a bush fear that is originally from africa and a few different kinds of perennial tolsey from india. As well and grow they all taste really different. They hope i think pretty similar properties but it really traditional vague preparation would probably have at least three kinds of tulsi in it. Well i think we're going to be doing A whole episode on tolsey on the plant report. So if you're interested in tolsey tune into that podcast and you'll get to hear more about this amazing plant. It's one of my favorites. I have to say yeah so special. So what's another plant that you really Adore and would would suggest that people grew in their gardens. I think the other. If i could only grow to plants in my medicine garden it would probably be pulled fee and then kolenda Klenge is just so easy to grow. It will really grow anywhere will become a weed and your garden if you let it go to feed and it's just has a lot of different functions and bodies so it's really multipurpose. It's really great her first aid if you use the pedals into esteem or a bath or an oil that you would apply topically on. Your skin has a lot of really wound healing properties. The a lot of the chemistry and klenge is connected to stimulating cellular regrowth in regeneration. So it's a really good ally for healing from cut or scars or surgery And if you take it internally at has a lot of those similar properties of of supporting your body's ability to heal itself It's also a really strong and saddiq herb. Which is an important thing to include in any sort of self care or limp system is the part of our body parallel tour circulatory suspend and it's part of our bodies way of removing or flushing toxins and pathogens from our body So having plants that really support our body's ability to cleanse itself is really important for our health. I should say that i. My experience is mostly in growing east plants. And i've been able to learn so much from books and from people and the plants themselves. But i'm not clinical herbalist by any means So that clinton inside Our lymphatic system is is really interesting because it's a part of our body that's really connected to movement but doesn't actually have an organ that propels that movement if that makes sense so like our circulatory system has our heart. Our nervous system has our brain system has our lungs. The lymphatic system doesn't have a central oregon that's creating movement and so clamps are especially important at helping that because it's really important that our bodies has for expelling something harmful lendl is just an awesome immune supporting herb to. And you know what i didn't know you could take it internally because i've just made oil out of it which i love. And so for lymphatic support which you read the oil on those areas or internal internally ingested both both army thing So colangelo really great as a topical oil where you can infuse kolenda you can take the oil internally like if you infuse klenge into an olive oil for example Or you can tincture with either vinegar alcohol and and take that internally a new way to use it i love it. I have all these babies popping up all over the place. It's great. yeah yeah when you eat kolenda flowers. They're really bitter to the taste and also a clue there's this Really wonderful way of looking at herbal medicine that's called the doctrine doctrine signatures and this understanding. Where or how plants grow interacting with one another. What they look like what they taste like are all clues to how these plants can work in your body and austin a taste of bitterness is connected to our digestion and our liver so cauliflowers taste bitter which is also a clue to the fact that they're really good for your digestion again because of that kind of bright moving for interesting so i assume that you were using the fresh flowers in your medicine making or both. Yeah we also dry a lot so that we have i mean. The appeals of drying herbs. Is that then. You have access to them during the cold season so we dry a lot of kolenda. I love that plant in. It's so cheery and like you're saying the pollinators go nuts for. Yeah yeah. I just think of it like it's such little son faces and so i just think this really warming circulatory energy and what other plants Would you would. You can europe Garden so another plant. That i think of as quite essential is yaro which is native where we eleven california It was also native where i lived in grew up in north carolina. There's also a kind of yaro that is in europe It seems like a a plant that can do well in a lot of different situations. Probably not a really really hot dry climate but yaro is an awesome planted included an apothecary insects. Love it. it's actually a plant that is really attractive beneficial insects that will help keep any sort of testy insect population under control in your garden. So it's just a really good organic. Gardening practices include yaro in your planting It's also a really great plant for first aid because of able to stop bleeding really quickly Even from pretty deep cuts. So i think it's a really good plant to be able to recognize and the would and have available to you in your home garden So if you're in any sort of a situation where you need to stop bleeding quickly. The fastest easiest thing to do is just make a pull. This which basically means to match up the leaves and flowers to get some of the moisture extracted than you can chew it and stick it on a cut or use a mortar and pestle if you have a little more time But it's also a really great. Immune system herb. So it's really antibacterial antiviral which is another reason. Why it's good to apply to a fresh wound But it has that same effect taken internally as vinegar or as an alcohol t shirts really good for your immune system To kind of trigger an immune response through this kind of warming property that the plant house and so naro and you may have said this already. And i missed it. But you're using the flowers you can use the leaves and the flowers who okay good to know and then what about for colangelo the flowers flowers yep and then the tolsey is the leaf leaf and flower Yaro i didn't know i've seen it growing. I don't have any growing in my garden. So i'm definitely going to get some seeds. Yeah and it's really. It really takes over so especially if you have a place where it's allowed to spread it's really good at propagating itself. I think that's really good if you have urged that you love to utilize and you just love being around them to have plants cover the bare soil always Superior to having that soil just uncovered. Absolutely yeah yeah. And so many medicinal plants just are waiting for an excuse to take over. Oh okay so any other plants that come to mind that you dislike. Yes i want in my herb garden. Yeah i really value rosemary. So we were talking about culinary herbs it can also be medicinal and i think one of the best examples of that is rosemary Which does it. Rosemary as also from mediterranean climate so it does really well in california In a lot of other places where it rains a lot more you might actually want to keep rosemary somewhere where it stays a little drier if possible To kind of mimic that mediterranean environment. But rosemary is just aromatherapy is important and i think for me. It was kind of an underrated part of herbalism when i started learning more about sanson their actions. But i've really come to understand. That sent is just one of the ways that our bodies can shift most immediately So rosemary's has this really wonderful fragrance and is really connected to our heads and our brains so at the plant would actually brings oxygen in your blood and towards your head so it's a really great plant. Have around if you are prone to headaches for example It's also a really great plant for your immune system for that same reason just kind of shing and refreshing and re oxygenating your blood And the plant that kind of feeds your brain so we have a a formula that we make that is for mental clarity and focus and rosemary is a part that it's a it's an herb that's really connected to your mind And it's also has a lot of properties that are It's considered a nervion. Which is kind of medicinal herb that is really calming and soothing and rosemary in particular a lot of people have success treating Mild to moderate cases of depression with rosemary. That's good to know so. Yeah it's a culinary herbs that i think that most of the culinary era but it's actually also a very powerful herbal medicine. I know in that free grins. It's so lake. Pungent and strong and uplifting. So i could see how it would energy. I talk about plants for like days. It's basically that's how i ended up even doing a podcast because my partner kevin was like oh my god all you do is talk about permaculture implants when it you like. Do a radio show on it. That was like fifteen years ago. And i'm like oh my god that's a great idea. Oh so any other plans that you want to Spotlight today yeah so plant but is quite easy to grow and a lot of different climates is ostra gonda which i feel has received a lot of attention. Lately is one of the superfood herbs It is related to tomatoes and it has really similar growing requirements. So if you're in a place where it does grow pretty well. It's probably also really easy to grow. Austral gonda and i mentioned that tolsey is an herb from the arabic tradition and india and i would say offcial gonda is probably the most important healing or not tradition It's another adapted. Jim those kinds of plants. That i mentioned before that not only calm and soothe you in the moment but also shift how your body response to stress in the first place And another really sweet element about ostrogoths. Is that if you take off your gonda before you sleep. It promotes deep and restful sleep and also kind of creative or visionary dreaming so if you're trying to work more but the dreamworld in your life i should gonda is. We're really great plant for that as well so like other plants. I'm talking about a route harvest. Which is still annual. So it's a plant that you would plant in the early spring. And then once the fully ed's has died back or slow down in late fall or early winter. That's the traditional time to do route harvests. Once the growing energy of the plant was returned to the ground. So it's a plant that you're able to dig author the first year of growth And you want to. You want to dasha gonda not any later than two years after. You've clanton it because at that point the roots get pretty old and more hippies. Or they're not as potent But it's a really easy plant to save seed from again and replant every year or if you allow it to set the that will always come back in your garden. I know i love russia. Gonda what a great word. What a great name. yeah i know. There's so many plans. And i would just do you want to mention any others that you were being grow. Keep asking me another plan. But i would really recommend everyone. Growing is lemon balm it's really easy to grow. It is in the mint family which is a family where the client how the tendency to take over so be warned of that And another plant that will self seed really easily. If you it to succeed and lemon balm is you can treat it as an annual. But it's really more like a biennial so it should come back once or twice after the spring that you've plan put up It's this really beautiful electric green org and it makes a really delicious tea. And it's one of the best herbs for calming anxiety and really helping to settle your stomach and your mind and it's also a really good herb for kids it. It's really sweet tasting so kids really like to drink the tea or they'll be really into vinegar or alcohol. Tincture of lemon balm. 'cause it's really tasty So it's one of the plants that we use a lot for my eight year old niece. Who kind of get zuma's over the course of a day and have kind of a hard time winding down and being ready for sleeping at night So it's a really great herb to have around for kids in particular. That's good to know. Yeah because often herbs don't taste so good right. yeah. I feel like medicine is famous for being very intense. Pacing and lemon balm is just a delicious tea and similar to all the other plants. We've talked about really the more well other than shonda. The more you pick the leaves and flowers the more they'll grow. They all really love to be pruned. So lemon balm are lemon balm kind of goes dormant once there's one frost in our garden So we usually have lemon balm available in our garden from say early march until late november and in not time with family doing full above ground leaf our best every month. it's just an incredibly vigorous productive plant. So wonderful. I wish we could continue talking about plants for like ours. I think we really wanna talk about how you make medicine with them. But lastly is there one other plant that you feel like you wanted to mention that we didn't have time for i think the yeah. I think that's final plant. That i would consider an essential apothecary. Plant is chamomile which I feel like a lot of people. Chamomile reminds them of their grandma. Like it's just this classic sleepytime he really beautiful flower again annual but will sell the'd to come back again and again in your garden and there's these lovely delicate yellow and white flowers that use only the flower of cameo and it makes kind of bitter t. It's nice to meet with honey and again that bitterness is an indication of that connection to digestion. And it's another plant that is just really calming and mellowing to your belly and your digestive system and your mind and your nervous system. Which is why. I think why called weepy times. He because it is a plant that will kind of help your body to realize them wind down and be able to sleep. I know even talking about it makes me relaxed. Yeah it's it's just one of the most beautiful medicinal herbs to my love it and it also is Really good for your skin as well. Yeah yeah oh yeah. I'm so glad you said that. Yeah we often will make herbal oils and include that as a sav or as a face cream ingredients because it is really good for your skin. But let's talk a bit about medicine. We're raining ourselves in from continuing on with the plants and we're going to talk a bit about medicine making and so some of the ways that it sounds like the medicines that you like to make one of them that i would love to hear about his herbal. Honey's yeah yeah. Honey is the the best medium for making us son so in general if you're making a fresh tincture of anything. The general rule of thumb is a one to two ratio the one park fresh plant material to price that volume of whatever you're extracting into and that can be alcohol hyperloop alcohol that can be apple cider vinegar. It can be any kind of carrier oil. It can be honey and we make all of our medicine in big half gallon jars and so it's very easy to do. A firm firmly packed half jar of plants and then simply poor. Whatever we're extracting into to the top of the jar and honey is just everything is immense germ which is a fancy word for the the That you're using these are all preservative so it's very you can rest assured that anything that you make us. An herbal medicine will be quite long lasting But honey is just one of the best ways to take medicine. it's delicious it extracts. Really well Either if you allow the herbs to sit in honey at room temperature for a few weeks or if you're making medicine say like an offshoot. Gonda honey i would actually recommend using a double boiler and very very gently warming the honey allowed to the root herbs to infuse a little better Always be careful. Not to overheat honey. Especially if you're using a raw local honey because honey itself just has so many modeste my whole properties and is so healing on its own so wonderful and it tastes so sweet and good with the herbal edition in there with the herbal Our other favorite way to make medicine is as an optimal. So that's the non alcoholic option for tinkering where we infuse herbs into apple cider vinegar and honey and not really traditional preparation and it's so delicious. The tartness of the vinegar with the sweetness of the honey is just so yummy. I try. I bought your adapt optimal It was it was so good with tulsi in it with the honey and all right. It's kind of that opposite. Flavors that just come together so nicely and so the oxygen moles and the herbal teas and herbal vinegars are another thing that you can make tinctures all of these than do have medicinal qualities so for people who are trying to avoid alcohol. There are other choice absolutely. Yeah and then could you tell us. Is it the same rule so for an oxymoron. One part plant two parts vinegar and then you add honey at the end or do you out in the beginning. You can do both the way that we usually do it because you have to ultimately you'll have to strain the plant material out of whatever you're extracting into and it's a lot easier to strain plants out of vinegar out of honey so we usually will make appear really strong herbal vinegar and then once we've strained that which means for us Pouring through two layers of cheesecloth and then really really firmly squeezing out the herbs that remain in the cheesecloth. We'll add honey after that and it's really tear case i would say we generally do about a quarter part honey into vinegar. Yom it sounds great. And are you do when you'd make optimal or teamsters Do you combine lance or. Do you do separate you know plant you. You can really do either I love take simple. Which is what a one plant pink. Sure call it because then it feels like you really get snow with that particular plant. Feels like in your body but combinations are also really wonderful and a lot of plants just complement each other so well so you get a much more Diverse medicinal action in your body. If you're making Formula sounds like basically with the tincture. You're just using alcohol instead of the apple cider. Vinegar exactly yeah the same ratios apply So exciting and then savage or another great way in lindemans which i really like make just rub on and take in that oils as well. Right like colangelo comfy oil. I love doing that. Yeah that's a wonderful combination. Yeah yeah and i love to make south so if you make an oil and then you stick into your taste with beeswax dot a really awesome waste take medicine because your skin is your biggest oregon. Really poor us and anything that you're putting on your skin is also going into your body. All these ways of integrating the herbs into our lives are so exciting. And i know that your company recently started a flower. Csa which is really cool. i haven't heard that And so could you just tell listeners. What see for those who may not know what a is and then what made you start a flower ac- as well as the herbal csi that you offer. Yeah thank you for asking that. Csa's stand for community supported agriculture. And it this relationship. That feels really reciprocal. Because you're committing to a longer term relationship with a farm. Generally a csa is a anywhere from a you know. Eight or ten weeks to a full year commitment with a particular farm and you're agreeing to participate in cycles of Scarcity in abundance within the farming season so traditional. You don't even really get choice about what you get once a week It's really about what the farm is is abundant and at that time. So it's a really sweet way to begin to understand us analogy even if you're not able to have garden of your own and it's also a really important economic relationship for the farmer. Because it's a way of assuring that you will have this long term commitment from your customers and so with we do an herbal cfa and we do a cut flower tsa and with both of those relationships it really does feel like the people who are participating are such an important and meaningful part of the plant that we grow and so it's just it feels like a really sneak connection The flowers a we just rented a new field and started to grow cut flowers. And it's been a really lovely experience. I mean in the midst of a pandemic felt quite creepy to begin tip produce. What a part of me sees as kind of like and i say this very lovingly but more frivolous Plan but it's just been so sweet to see how important flowers and beauty are two people and Of course because of who we are also talking a lot of medicinal plants into argued case so they can have the second lices t and you know it's so nice to to source your flowers and herbs from a local grower that you can actually see their farm because often herbs can be adulterated with other things that you were mentioning earlier. They come from far away and may be stale and the same with flowers. I believe the cut. Flower industry can really Use a lot of toxins absolutely. Yeah commercial cut flower growing really poisonous and really really water intensive and just like we do with our medicinal herbs. We try to water sparingly as possible in our flower field and really challenged the plants to learn how to take care of themselves. So it's much more It's it's it's much more resource effective The i love what you just said about the plants to take care of themselves. I read an article when i was probably in my twenty years ago. And this woman was a farmer in oxnard california who was growing. She was from the philippines. I believe she was growing all of the tropical trees. That from her childhood in oxnard. The interviewer was talking about her beautiful garden. He said well. How do you get the papayas to grow here. And she said 'i stand underneath the tree with the michetti and say you don't grow the papaya down you go on. I always thought that is a different kind of plant communication. That yours is more loving. I'm sure yeah. We usually don't threaten death and so we're in a time of change right now right. We talk covert and just here in the states politically and i'm wondering what you mentioned this a bit. I think with the plants you talked about. But what right now is your go to erbil ally. Yeah i would say. Tolsey is our our biggest or It's what we drink tea every day. And it's so connected to your heart and i feel like for yeah. You mentioned the political moment here. In the united states. I feel like the the social and cultural revolution. That we're going through right now. Is really demanding that we keep our hearts really open and listen to the experiences of others and have the strength to honor those experiences and acknowledge our mistakes and pocius such an important plant for any sort of work like that. It's just such an emotionally supportive and nourishing herb. And i feel like it can really bring courage so elaine. I noticed on your website that you mentioned herbal reparations. And i'm curious if you'd want to share that with listeners. Yes so the last few months have been such a reckoning for us in the united states really reflection on both past and present moments and what we future to look like. And so my partner. Danny and i you know we're very small business. It's just the two of us and We've always wanted to farm in a way that reduces harn. So that's why. We've always chosen to farm organically and to really allow wildness to come in around the edges and signed a home gardens and we started to try to think more about what that means in the economics of our small business. And so we've always wanted to keep or herbal medicine as affordable as we can so that it can be as accessible as possible but we also realized that we want it to be much more forceful about creating the kind of world Both economically and socially that we would like to see and so we started to think a lot. More about what reparations could look like within our business model so the idea of being a part of returning resources to those in the united states from whom they were taken or stolen and herbal medicine has a long tradition of that people came and saved people came from africa with incredibly intimate knowledge of herbalism. And that was used by by plantation owners and people without credit or acknowledgment and the same per indigenous people in the united states so we really wanted to create a model within our herbal business. That reflected the huge debt that we owe to people of color in within herbalism. So it's our way of trying to return some of the resources we've been so fortunate to have access to so we've started off the herbal siesta. That we release once every other month he's started to offer a few of those at no cost to People of color both we can sick or locally and we've also just made and are about to release a formula that is specifically for the grief that bodies and our heart polls and being able to work with that greece and Release it and grow with it and that is a picture that will be either free or at really. Minimal cost to people of color. So it's just one of the ways that we feel like we could more More accurately acknowledged an honor. The the many lives that came before on. Oh i love that. That's so kind and Necessary in these times. So thank you for doing that. Oh yeah it's our it's our pleasure. It feels truly like relief that we can do so lane. It's been so much fun talking with you. I've really enjoyed it. And i wanted to remind listeners that you are online at night heron farm dot org and i'm curious if there's anything else you wanna tell us today. I don't think i would want to add you. Just want to reemphasize easy. It is to grow these plants. And even if you just have a little postage-sized stamp of their or postage-stamp sized little plot no matter how tiny or non-existent your yard is if you have a pot that you can set in sunny place in your window or on your front steps. It's so possible to grow some of these plants and they just make life much better. They do they do and it it. It's fairly easy very forgiving. Exactly they're so easy to grow. Yeah there's no reason. I feel like so often on meet people who are like. Oh i don't have a green thumb. I kill any plan. I've ever met and i'm just like you. You didn't tell that dried rosemary. To rate is very hardy. Yeah you would be able to grow it and then never get rid of it so there you go exactly well. I really appreciate you taking the time today to us about this important subject and we're all thrilled to learn from you thank you. I'm so honored. Thank you you've been listening to a sustainable world radio podcast. You can find us online. Sustainable world radio dot com and also on itunes for more information about permaculture ecology. Visit the sustainable world media youtube channel where you'll find videos about permaculture aqua panics organic gardening rainwater harvesting and much much more sustainable world. Radio is a listener supported program if you like what we do please consider making a donation to the show. I'm your host and producer jill. Uta and thank you so much for listening.

Elena rosemary yaro gardner elena Elena danny kolenda mediterranean new clemson colangelo colangelo colangelo basil Toasty Gonda Tolsey Quayle kolenda Klenge gophers elaine north carolina
California Teaming Up With Native American Tribes To Prevent Wildfires

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04:57 min | 1 year ago

California Teaming Up With Native American Tribes To Prevent Wildfires

"There's an old cliche about fighting fire with fire for California. This is not a metaphor. That's what they're literally doing the state is trying to limit destructive wildfires by lighting small fires which clear out excess vegetation leaving less fuel for a big fire. The state is starting to work with native American tribes who've done this a long time. NPR's Laura Summer reports good morning back in February when large groups of people could still get together about fifty people gathered in a clearing in the Sierra Nevada foothills. We're doing out here is. Restoring Life Ron good is tribal chairman of the North Fork Mono. He's brought together several California tribes to do something. They've largely been stopped from doing a century or more cultural burning. Fire on the ground in not know how it's GONNA turn out. That's what makes it cultural burning. Because we call to eight, also listening are officials from the state and federal government the entities that historically banned travel burning today they're here to start taking steps to work together but I the day started with a blessing. Bill Leonard is tribal chairman of the southern Sierra me. Walk. You get to work. The group heads out into the oak woodland toward some bushes with long bare branches saw berries three cmec a good right if before they begin burning, he start harvesting. My mom is a basket. Lever Rain. Gutierrez is cutting the straightest branches. All of our basketball needs to be tended to in some way. So they need to be burned and then next year we'll probably have sticks that are six seven feet tall when you`re Fired Oh. The dry branches light up quickly, but the roots will remain intact after spring rains the plant will reach out when I was a kid I learned from my mother. But my mother got in trouble when she burn because the fire department, you know didn't want her doing what we're doing today. That's historically California's tribes burned thousands of acres every year until western settlers arrived, they came with their concept of being afraid of fire. They didn't understand fire in the sense of the tool that could be. To create in what did to help, generate and rejuvenate land. So they. Brought in suppression. The forest service famously had the ten am rule to put out all forest fires by ten. AM The next day force quickly became overgrown and native tribes. Las Lamb they once burned says Beth rose Middleton Manning Professor of Native American Studies at UC Davis. There was actually a a bounty on California Indian people the governor had announced a war of extermination. So you have all the history and it really fostered removal. Now, tribes across California are trying to restore cultural burning by working on public lands. Guy I think it's really important that we don't think about traditional burning as what information can we learn from native people and then exclude people and move on with. Managing the land, but the Navy people are at the forefront and are leading. What you get it up, brought me light it. The crew moves on to burn a dense field a few acres across Jennifer Montgomery lights the dry grass with drip torch basically a lighter on steroids that was super empowering. Every woman should get a chance to use a drip torch Montgomery Works California's fire agency. The State is trying to reduce overgrown fuels on hundreds of thousands of acres, but it has a long way to go. She says, California's tribes should be part of that. It's an opportunity for me to really see how effective cultural fire can be in addressing the issues we have around uncontrolled wildfire that the work that we did today. If a fire comes through there, it will drop down to the ground and frankly it may given the right circumstances just stop the fire entirely on its own. For good the days about forming these partnerships, but it's also about the kids running alongside their parents. Oh no better teaching than that. He looks out at the blackened field, which can a few weeks will sprout again excited I'm elated because I'm looking at around at. What we've done. How beautiful the land is is is looking and it is. It is. More summer NPR news.

California chairman Bill Leonard Sierra Nevada foothills NPR NPR Laura Summer basketball Middleton Manning Professor of Gutierrez Jennifer Montgomery Montgomery Navy UC Davis Las Lamb Beth rose six seven feet
The True Story Behind the Myths and Mysteries of Searsville Lake

Bay Curious

11:39 min | 2 months ago

The True Story Behind the Myths and Mysteries of Searsville Lake

"When police are called and something goes wrong like an officer uses excessive force or kill. Someone who's unarmed departments can launch an internal affairs investigation to look into it here in california. Those investigations were secret until now we've sifted through interrogation tape and talk to witnesses to find out who does the system. Police accountability really served. And who does it protect. Listen now on our watch. A podcast from npr and k. Q. e. d. from k. q. e. d. before my family moved to the bay area i lived in maryland. Where summers are hot. I spent almost every day all day at our local pool. And even though. I love the bay area. It just doesn't feel like summer without those lazy days of sunbathing. Vending machine treats and hours the water so i was intrigued. When bakeries listener david mataya said in the nineteen seventies. His family used to drive a half hours south from their home and foggy daly city for some fun in the sun at a place called series. Ville david now lives in rohnert park but he wants to know whatever became seriously ill on the peninsula today on the show were diving into local swimming lor complete with manmade beaches and swedish high divers plus did leland stanford really flood town to make this lake. I'm between a schwartz and this is bay. Curious support for bay curious comes from sierra. Nevada brewing company family owned operated and argued over since nineteen eighty proud supporter of independent thought. Whether that's online over the air or in a bottle more at sierra nevada dot com mention the peninsula and you know we have to call in our resident peninsula. Maven rachel myrow. Hey katrina when i think of the lakes on the peninsula rachel i think of those pretty blue lakes. You see west to eighty between like san bruno and redwood city as it happens katrina those two reservoirs the crystal springs reservoirs were built by the same outfit that built the series ville damn back in the late nineteenth century. So bear with me. You need a little bit of history to know how the place known. As series ville lake came to be in the years following the gold rush. San francisco's growing population was thirsty for drinking water and a private company sprang up called the spring valley water company which bought up a lot of farmland on the peninsula south of the city to take advantage of all the creek water pouring off the santa cruz mountains. The company built a handful of dams and reservoirs to collect and direct that water north to san francisco. Now around this time katrina leland stanford was building a brand new university campus in the region and he bought a small reservoir. From the spring valley water company for use on his campus leland stanford that guy always seemed to be one step ahead of the game. That's how we got to be a real road baron and it bears repeating that. This guy was so rich. His quote unquote farm was a whopping eighty. Two hundred acres. Some of the land is flat but much of it is made up of rolling hills and burgling creeks that run from the mountains to the bay creeks that i presume feed the little reservoir on the campus. You said leland's denver. Bought a handful of creeks. Yes the thing is. This reservoir proved to be a major disappointment as a drinking water source because one of the creeks that fed into it also carried tons of silt and sediment down from the mountains. The water smell awful. The water tasted off all all of the sinks and bathtubs had yellow or brownish stains. That could not be removed. That's julie kane historian for heritage services at stanford so they figured out relatively quickly. This water was really going to only be good for irrigation and fire protection but if the reservoir couldn't deliver potable water it was still pretty sweet place to hang out there. Were about two hundred families living in the area roughly and the lake became an immediate unofficial recreational spot with people that live nearby swimming boating picnic game in one thousand nine hundred twenty two a stanford couple lease the property so they could teach water sports and run a summer camp ernst and greta branston in both swedish immigrants and champion divers. Greta was the first woman ever to win an olympic gold medal for high diving in one thousand nine hundred twelve girl scouts and boy scouts camped on the property tons of sand was brought into create. A man made beach. There was a snack shack. Fifteen hundred people might show up on a sunday. Twenty five hundred people on holiday weekend. It was a scene or not just the local community but really anybody within the bay area. I have photographs memorial day and it looks like coney island coney island for those of you. Unfamiliar with the new york. Metro area is a brooklyn neighborhood. That famously morphs into a beach party spot. Each summer the beach party spot here on the stanford campus was called camp. Sears phil wait. So where did that name series. Ville come from near the lake. There was a tiny town called series. Ville the doesn't exist anymore. But here's why. I should take a moment katrina to address a couple of pervasive rumors about spearsville lake. When i was researching this story. I posted on a number of facebook history groups and i got hundreds of responses many of which mentioned two stories that turned out to be false number one. A number of people believed the town of series ville was flooded by the construction of the reservoir. That was a rumor. Started by ernst branston. Who loved to scare his diving students by telling them they could hit their heads on an old series ville rooftop if they weren't careful my god and rumor number too fast forward to nineteen sixty eight. Some baby boomers on facebook told me about a legendary concert. They remember hearing about but could not have attended. Because as julie kane explains the university got wind of it while it was being organized and shut that concert down they would ahead great people though country joe and the fish joan baez everybody in their dog. That was anybody in. San francisco is on that list. Why are there so many rumors about this place. Rachel we'll think about it katrina many of the people alive today who remember series ville would have been children or teenagers when they visited like our question. Asker david mattera. Their memories are all a little bit hazy now but they're not wrong to remember it was a big fund. Seen travel was the university's biology department was growing tired of having to share. Its twelve hundred acre biological preserve with the party animals of the bay area. There's absolutely no mystery as to why the park was. Shut down so picture. Grassland chiappero oak woodland management evergreen forest and even freshwater wetlands around the reservoir technically manmade stanford researchers have conducted studies on this land for decades checker spot butterflies climate change invasive plants. A lot of this didn't mean much to people off. Campus just coming to visit series ville lake and over the decades. They unwittingly trampled on a lot of science projects which really is continued to this day with local kids. Who got nothing better to do so. In one thousand nine hundred seventy six. The university bought out the camps lease and closed the swimming spot damp. You can still take dawson led tours of what's now call the jasper ridge biological preserve but the party is over. So that answer is david mateos question about what became of sears vo lake but now that we know the history of the dam and the lake behind it. We should talk about what's been happening. In recent decades there was a lawsuit over the damn right. Yes it's something. A lot of current peninsula locals ask about i talked to an environmentalist named matt sticker. Who grew up in portola valley one of several peninsula cities that popped up near stanford. His parents swam series ville lake. He remembers playing in the creeks that feed the reservoir when he was a boy discovered that there is a steel enron that used to run from the bay all the way up to windy hill and valley where i lived. He remembers one. Brave little steelhead trout in particular. This was actually a seal. Has it come from the ocean that may have swam from as far away as off the coast of japan. All the way back to the stream. It was born in this useless dan. That's not serving a function anymore as preventing it from swimming back to its home. As a grownup beneficial biologist sticker started a group called beyon- sears ville dam which was one of several groups that spent decades trying to get stanford to budge on restoring the local watershed. This something like its original glory. It did take a lawsuit by a couple of those groups but the university has budged. Kind of it's come up with a plan not to get rid of series ville damn altogether which is what sticker wants but to open a hole in the bottom of the dam that would let the steelhead trout returning from the bay go upstream and it would let the water go downstream even so you can anticipate stanford has to engage in a lot of meetings in the years to come with the public and various agencies before anything finally happens on the ground so i gotta give the last word to kane. I'm probably going to put words in somebody's mouth but i'm sure somebody at stanford is shaking his or her head going to hell. Did we buy that. Place for sears. Been lake sounds like it would have been a blast in its heyday. Thank you rachel. Thank you katrina rachel. Myrow is senior editor of silicon valley. News desk julie kane co writing a book with another local historian. Nancy lund all about sears. Bill damn look for that soon and you can see. Awesome photos of sears. Ville lake in all its glory on our website bay. Curious dot org bay. Curious has been documenting good local swimming spots for a while. Now check out our show notes for some insider tips on where you can swim. Our show is produced by susie. Wacho mcmurray and me katrina. Schwartz is a production of member supported cake in san francisco. The bay curious team is off next week for memorial day. But i'll see you back here in two weeks.

leland stanford ville lake julie kane katrina david mataya Ville david Maven rachel myrow bay area peninsula south swimming greta branston rohnert park coney island coney island Ville stanford campus Sears phil spearsville lake san bruno santa cruz mountains
Wildfires Have Gone From Bad To Worse  And More Are Inevitable

Coronavirus Daily

13:33 min | 11 months ago

Wildfires Have Gone From Bad To Worse And More Are Inevitable

"When Brett Myers drove into the town of Maldon Washington a couple of days ago there were more. On, fire than not smoke to where you can't see in front of you fire encroaching right on the road houses that when you drove by. The inside your vehicle heat up thirty fifty degrees just instantly the the intensity that fire was pretty close to a war zone. Maldon a small town in the eastern part of the state. Myers is the county sheriff there and on Labor Day. The ground was dry winds close to fifty miles an hour. They still don't know how exactly the fire started or where it came from but in a matter of hours, Myer says about eighty percent of the town was gone. From the time that got to the city limits to the time it was through the town was maybe two and a half hours. And then the fire burned breast tonight. But most of the homes caught on fire caught and fire within two to three hours very most. Meanwhile in Oregon, we have never seen this amount of uncontained fire across our state Governor Brown said fires there were also fueled by strong winds by Thursday evening state officials estimated five hundred thousand people had been forced to evacuate their homes ten percent of the population. Fires there have already burned nearly double the acreage of an average year. This will not be a one time event. Unfortunately it is the bellwether of the future. We are feeling the acute impacts of climate. Change. Consider. This. The situation in the West has gone from bad to worse. There are still months left to go wildfire season and more fire is inevitable. From NPR, I'm audie Cornish it's Friday September eleventh. Support for this NPR podcast and the following message come from better help online counseling by licensed professional counselors specializing in isolation depression stress and anxiety visit better help dot com slash consider to learn more and get ten percent off your first month. Support for NPR and the following message come from USA fax tracking the spread and impact of Covid nineteen with interactive case maps and charts, economic stats and more see the data at USA facts. Dot Org. I'm Lisa Hagen. I'm Chris Axel. We're the hosts of no compromise NPR's new podcast exploring one families mission to reconstruct America using too powerful tools, guns and facebook new episodes. Drop every Tuesday join us for the no compromise podcast from NPR. It's considered this from NPR. The scale of the fires in the West is hard to wrap your head around three million acres have burned in. California before this week the record in the season was one point seven million and that was just two years ago. There were smoke-filled skies in Los Angeles clouds in San Francisco cast a red glow on the city. California Oregon Washington. We're all in the same. Of Cataclysmic. Fire. The reason we are in the same soup is because the grass is so dry the to Washington governor, Jay Inslee said Wednesday dry conditions, high temperatures and strong winds had combined to decimate entire towns across Washington state. Will tell you that. Having seen these fires unfortunately too frequently. The psychological loss of losing your home. Is a deep deep wound. Is. Not, just economic Chris Lavoie knows that feeling he told NPR that he was one of the hundreds of thousands of people evacuated in Oregon this week we jumped in the van we started driving and you could see up on the hill across the river from us a complete inferno. Giant. Red Orange Balls of flames just the whole thing was engulfed. Bala Flames Loboi owned a small mountain resort in the town, of blue, river east of Eugene. It doesn't exist anymore block neither does his home and he learned that from video he came across on facebook someone had recorded a drive through town. You can see our historic ranger cabin. And there's stone fireplace that's all it's left and then you roll up so that they lodge and the buildings is completely gone. So you know you vacillate I vacillate between you know. Wanting to cry holding back, tears crying in, just trying to be optimistic or making a joke just to try and distract myself. Yeah. With at least eighty, five major fires burning out of control the country's firefighting resources are maxed out. Now, federal fire officials are calling in the US military in even looking internationally for help. Some of that effort is being coordinated in Boise Idaho where NPR's Kirk. Siegler has been following things he spoke to my colleague. Elsa Chang. So we understand that you are at this point basically in the center of the Federal and State wildland firefighting response, you could say that has I'm actually standing outside the National Interagency Fire Center here in Boise looking at couple of airtankers out on the tarmac here, and they've been basically preparing for the worst here for weeks. Now, they've been at a prepared this level five that means that all resources are deployed to wildfires. So if for win I, think at this point, they get another big one we're going to have to start pulling cruise off other fires. You know it's hard to decide. How to do that also, when you're one hundred percent maxed out with a twenty, five thousand firefighters out on the ground already in California, Oregon and elsewhere what are fire manage? They're telling you because at this point, there is no sign of rain or snow in the forecast anytime soon. So what's the contingency plan? Well, they're mobilizing the military, which is not unheard of it's something. They don't do every year though only bad years like this and things are really bad. The National Guard in several states is also sending cruise to the West here they've got an order out for a half battalion? Bring in ten more hand crews from the US military, and they're also looking to bring in more hotshot crews and crews from Mexico and Canada at this point to wow how much do you think all of that additional assistance is going to help the situation here I mean it's not GonNa hurt. But honestly, you're not gonNA put these mega fires out. You've got forests dried out from climate change their stress they've been overgrown due. To a legacy, the fact that we've been suppressing fires and they're just more people living in them here at the fire. Center. Dan. Smith put it to me pretty bluntly they need all the help they can get but these are urban wildfires in their burning a whole towns and cities and people are dying a main priority has to be search and rescue evacuations of people that get them out of harm's way, and that's A. Very. Tough situation to be in also it's extraordinary. The priority right now is search and rescue not even of wildfire suppression we're trying to protect homes well, isn't all of this kind of a worst case scenario right now because we have this really bad fire season, and now we're in the middle of a pandemic how much of the pandemic is hampering efforts right now? Well, yeah, this is exactly what everyone in the wildland fire community hoped wasn't going to happen having twenty-five thousand firefighters deployed now in the middle of a pandemic officials here at the center told. Me That the Canadians in particular were hesitant to initially send help due to the fact that the coronavirus is still. So out of control down here, but and state governments have put a lot of safety protocols in place on how to sit up fire camps and do response that are being tested right now, the Canadians I'm told are sending crews and we're going to be continuing to lean on other countries in particular in the southern hemisphere were it's winter because there's really no sign that this fire season is going to slow down anytime soon. NPR's Kirk Siegler and Boise Idaho. As Kirk just mentioned wildfires are getting worse in part because for decades, the US has overplayed its hand when it comes to fire suppression that's putting out fires where another time they would've been allowed to burn and clear out overgrown vegetation but there's an effort underway in California to do things differently by working with some native American tribes who have been fighting fire with fire for a long time. Here's NPR's Laura in summer. Back in February when large groups of people could still get together about fifty people gathered in a clearing in the Sierra Nevada foothills. Out here is. Restoring life. Ron Good is tribal chairman of the North Fork. Mono, he's brought together several California tribes to do something they've largely been stopped from doing for a century or more cultural burning. We don't put fire on the ground in not know how it's GonNa. Turn out. That's what makes it cultural burning. Because we call to eight also listening are officials from the state and federal government the entities that historically banned travel burning today. They're here to start taking steps to work together but I the day started with a blessing. Bill Leonard is tribal chairman of the southern Sierra me. Walk. You get to work. The group heads out into the oak woodland towards some bushes with long bare branches saw berries three leave CMEC. Goodwin right there before they begin burning, he start harvesting. My mom is a basket lever. Tiaras is cutting the straightest branches. All of our basket material needs to be tend to in some way. So they need to be burned, and then next year we'll probably have sticks that are six seven feet tall and when you're. Fired Oh. The dry branches light up quickly, but the roots remain intact after spring rains the point where we sprout. I learned from my mother. But my mother got in trouble when you burn because the fire department, you know didn't want her doing what we're going today. Good historically, California's tribes burned thousands of acres every year until western settlers arrived they came with their concepts of being afraid of fire. They didn't understand fire in the sense of the tool. That, it could be. To create and what it did to help, generate and rejuvenate the land. So they. Brought in suppression the Forest Service famously had the ten am rule to put out all forest fires by ten am the next day force quickly became overgrown and native tribes las the land they once burned says Beth rose Middleton Manning Professor of native American Studies at UC. Davis there was a a bounty on California. Indian people the governor had announced a war of extermination. So You have all the history and it really fostered removal. Now, tribes across California are trying to restore cultural burning by working on public lands guy I, think it's really important that we don't think traditional burning as what information can we learn from native people and then exclude people and move on with non natives managing the land but the native people are at the forefront and are leading. You get it up bright related. The crew moves on to burn a dense field a few acres across Jennifer Montgomery lights the dry grass with a drip torch basically a lighter on steroids that was super empowering. I. Mean I think every woman should get a chance to use a drip torch. Montgomery works for California's fire agency. The State is trying to reduce overgrown fuels on hundreds of thousands of acres, but it has a Long Way to go. She says, California's tribes should be part of that. It's an opportunity for me to really see how effective cultural fire can be in addressing the issues we have around uncontrolled wildfire that the work that we did today. If a fire comes through there, it will drop down to the ground. I'm frankly it may given the right circumstances just stop the fire entirely on its own. For Good. The day is about forming these partnerships, but it's also about the kids running alongside their parents. No better teaching that he looks out at the blackened field which in a few weeks will sprout again excited I'm elated because I'm looking around. It what we've done how beautiful the land is is looking at it is. It is. That report from NPR's Lauren summer, more of her reporting on cultural burning in California in our episode notes, it's considered this from NPR. I'm Audie Cornish.

NPR California US Oregon Kirk Siegler Audie Cornish facebook Brett Myers Jennifer Montgomery Myer Maldon Washington Boise Idaho chairman Governor Brown National Guard National Interagency Fire Cent Chris Axel Bala Flames Loboi
The Klamath Dam Removal

Resonant Restoration Podcast

33:08 min | 5 months ago

The Klamath Dam Removal

"Either i think i've had enough coffee so we can get going welcome to another installment of resonant restoration. I'm your host waiting through and wrangling through the water and weeds. Wantonly resting on the wayside of ecological restoration and this was not filmed from a live studio audience. Sorry anyhow today. We're looking at a very large project. The take down of the klamath river dams. I can't emphasize enough the gravity and size of this project by the way my name is shawn and we are bringing you. This podcast from traditional territory. In humboldt county california it is paramount to understand how we interact with the land in our everyday life and our histories future is mixed in the past and the present. The goal of restoration is often to return conditions for european and where those reference conditions are entwined with indigenous land management practices. We have a survey up at the moment so we can start working on. We'll continue on making the show better. You can find it at our links tree at l. i. and k. t. r. dot e slash resident restoration all also be hosting a trivia night for the northwest chapter of the society for ecological restoration march twenty fourth or somewhere around there. Chapter has also started a webinar series on inclusion in ecological restoration. So you can visit their website to get more information on that. This episode is brought to you in part by the folks over. At native ecosystems native ecosystems incorporated is a full service firm based humboldt county california. They focused their work on the restoration of ecosystems and design and implementation projects that restore eagles system function providing critical habitat for flora fauna and humans. They provide assistance with all aspects of restoration projects from the design and planning phase all way through construction maintenance and monitoring their staff has experienced designing and implementing habitat restoration projects throughout california and the pacific northwest a specialized in repairing wetland oak woodland and grassland. They are biologist ecologist an ecological laborers native ecosystems is a california licensed contractor and certified ecological restoration practitioner. I have seen the work. They do not only. Are they professional. They truly care about what they do. It's time to look at what's blooming. The good old look at phonology so here and via instagram. because who doesn't get information there now now a lot of people so we have feted at his tongue. Humble bay wallflower. Trillium kirby yoshie i Pink flowering currant vaccinia ovum. Our staff list yuba poa annua which is annual bluegrass rat. Tail fescue if you want to provide a list of what's blooming in your neighborhood you can email us at resonant restoration at g. Mail dot com. Or if you just want to say hi say hi. Hey just remind you know ifs buts ands or what have us schedule your floor ristic surveys. Spring is bringing. and it's almost done sprung. Get your based on documentation and order. Do these things well in delineations critter reports If you're in the appropriate window whatever look for plants for critters. Don't skirt by without knowing what is out there. The flowers will appreciate it and so will i. I had a great conversation. jim root. Who is the president of the klamath river renewal corporation and but first. Let's look at some history behind the klamath so these dams have created substantial impact to the hookah karuk klamath and europe communities the dams are planned for removal and those include top co one cop co two iron gate and jc boil. Jc boy is in oregon and other ones are in california. These are all hydroelectric facilities. There are under the ownership pacific core. The dam removal would be the largest dam removal project in the world. But let's back up a bit or a lot or a little and a lot as rewind the setting in a trajectory reference restoration. Time machine thing. So what led to where we are by eighteen. Fifty five settlers inundated the area due to the gold rush logging mining. You know all those types of activities by eighteen seventy it is said that the populations of indigenous people on the klamath had declined by seventy five percent in one thousand nine hundred six. The first canal relates the klamath irrigation. Project you start supplying farmers with irrigation water and farmland in the klamath basin. This led to about two hundred and twenty five thousand acres of rains. Land being transformed into active farmland copco one and copco two or constructed starting in nineteen eighteen. Jc boyle was constructed in nineteen fifty eight and iron gate in one thousand nine hundred sixty four by the thirties. Euro tribal members were banned from fishing and nineteen seventy eight. The supreme court of california upheld the ban on fishing one year later the supreme court upheld eight thousand nine hundred seventy four decision that the tribes were entitled to fifty percent of harvestable salmon. I imagine tensions were still high as there. Were no possible way that the same number of salmon would be seen anymore compared to those historical numbers considering the major losses the habitat and other impacts from nearby logging roadways development. And all the other things that go along with our ill-suited conception of progress over the last hundred years in two thousand two things get heated including the water temperature. We saw the largest salmon die off in the western united states and september. about thirty. Four thousand fish died and some counts. Estimated at over seventy thousand adult chinook salmon the cause according to a report by us fish and wildlife service and then it was due to water diversions to the climate basin during drought years. The high temperatures in the water created conditions leading to gill rot disease and these fish perish before they're able to reproduce so now that you have a little bit of background i encourage you to look the klamath up more now. Let's hear from jim to get started. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about the k. R. c. a. Yes sean on jammed route. I'm serving as the app. President of the klamath river renewal corporation were five. Oh one c. Three nonprofit corporation formed by a large group of stakeholders the stakeholders negotiated a settlement regarding the klamath river. Hydro electric projects and that settlement will result in the demolition of the dams and the restoration of that reach of the river. Our corporation was formed to accomplish that project. And so how did you get. Started with the krc or the klamath. In general. i began quite early on. I have a cattle ranch in the wood river valley. The river is one of the upper tributaries of the klamath river. We in the year. Two thousand two we encountered a curtailment in irrigation for the whole basin of the clam and i felt like sites were so polarized regarding the the water shutdown that i wanted to become involved and see if i could use some of my rotary. Med skills to help negotiate a settlement in a fair result for all the stakeholders in those water issues shaun. I've been at this a long tac. Yeah i bet. That's great though to see develop this far. I'm sure there was a lot of interesting back and forth in conversations through the early stages anyway and probably continuing to this day. That is correct. The upper basin water issues. Although the work that i did help result in a subtle hint for water allocation settlement required. An act of congress to enact and congress failed to act on the settlement twitch. Everybody regrets now but with that we still advani issues in that upper basin area the Hydro settlement agreement remained alive though Number of us were appointed by principles stakeholders to sit on the board of that corporation. Back to your original question. I was appointed by governor kate brown to serve on the board. Oh great so okay. I'm kind of interested how. How does the political climate kind of factor into the process of the dam. Removal is their dc a lot of changes with presidential turnover. Or does that even matter. It's somewhat tangentially related. The federal government is one of the stakeholders in the subtle on through the app department of interior and commerce and so we have to pay attention to the politics at the national level. The actual activity in the federal government is principally centered with the federal energy regulatory commission which is an independent body and other than their commissioners being appointed by the president. We we really respond to the regulations of this independent commission. Right that makes sense recently. I've heard quite a few news stories about hurdles. You guys have gotten past including the question of liability. For as i understand it wanted pacificorp hold onto that liability and now it is going to be assumed by the k r c and a combination of the oregon and california. Is that correct. Yes yes that's correct. This came up via the transfer of the licenses for the dams which are currently held by pacific core. The corporation filed an application to have the license transferred to the k r c after lengthy consideration by for for fell that the single purpose nature of our corporation left some public liability and in order to make sure that the public was not in a liable position ordered that specific core remain on the license and says a co licensee. This ran counter to the subtle men agreement that pacific corps participated in and would not allow pacific court receive the benefit of what they negotiated for thusly. We had a very intense almost seven days. A week negotiation from august to november and ended up in a very positive position where pacific horror will remain on the license through these surrender period so pacific horror remains liable for regulatory risk. Then at surrender the states of california and oregon become co licensees with the climate through a renewal corporation and bear the liability of construction and restoration of the river. Nice with that out of the way. And i saw that. There was also recent approval by cal fire for water storage to alleviate concerns about Water availability on wildfire response. Yes we have twelve streams that were working on which supplement the deconstruction plan that we have filed with for the twelve work. Streams will be submitted to for a week from friday. One of those is a fire plan and it results from the fact that the four reservoirs behind the dams have been used by firefighters as water source. Those of course we'll be going away and we came up with a both a complex and comprehensive fire mitigation plan which the cal fire in california and oregon department of forestry and oregon have signed off on our fire management plan. That's great so. Are there any other major concerns or hurdles that are a you have to overcome at the moment or is it clear sailing from here. These twelve work streams address different issues that we need to finalize. The path for us is pretty direct and has been in -ticipant samples that we do have to file and gain permits or acceptance for will be are national historic preservation clan and that includes dealing with tribal cultural sites there two agencies that will have to sign off on on. That plan will be finally next friday. Our biological assessment and probably the biggest hurdle that we have remaining is firkh will initiate their national environmental policy. Act or niba crosses and this will go through all of the natural resource impacts that can occur. We'll be filing a recreation plan for the river. i think those are four of the twelve. It gives you kind of a feeling for what we need to do with i work. We have received our 401 clean water certifications from both hella -fornia and oregon. Those are two big hurdles that were over. And we're right on track with the army corps of engineers for our four zero four certification. Which is the removal and fill construction materials. Great s. you got some work ahead of you. But you're you're doing good. Sounds like we do. We want to empower preconstruction at tippety. Beginning april of two thousand twenty two about thirteen months from now and we kind of have to hit that day to be able to start. Try down of the reservoirs january one two thousand twenty three any stumbles there and we could miss a construction year. So there's plenty of pressure on us to keep our nose to the grindstone. Yeah i imagine so. Are there any restoration activities happening at the moment to kind of prepare for the take down of the dams getting tributaries bolstered or removal of culverts. Or anything like that. That activity a has not started yet. But we've got to get the surrender of the license accomplished before we can can really start into that work right. That makes sense with everything moving forward. I know that there's been quite a lot of involvement by tribal entities. Can you kind of tell us how they've been involved in the process. Yes the federally. Recognized tribes the euro cutter on the lower river and the climate tribe. On the upper river have really been in the forefront of the project. You could almost say this is their project than they brought the rest of us in to the project. They are stakeholders in the project. Saved the klamath which decided not to participate formally but have been very key partners for us are highly supportive of the project and will advance the restoration of the river beyond the fifteen mile reach. That will be working up. Do you know. If they're gonna be working alongside ari s with. I can't remember the name of that organization that outfit out of texas. A yes they will. They will be receiving subcontracts for work in our project area from razz they also will be receiving deconstruction subcontracts from the kiewit construction for. That's the general contractor that they're just part of local subcontractors it will be hired and contribute to the the local economy through this process. Have you guys been learning or looking at other removal projects like such as the l. a. Removal i know there is a lot of impacts that they saw where sediment eighty acres of beach into adrift sell at the mouth and there was impacts from flooding. How how have you approached looking at other projects to inform this one. We certainly have been looking apt at other dam removal projects each one their similarities and both the geography and the geology makes them unique. Also we've had engineering firms. Environmental engineering firm studying dam removal for the four years that i've been involved and the bureau of reclamation was initially charged with this project in two thousand ten i believe and we've relied on the the studies that they and their sister federal agencies have also been involved. Yeah i think you guys have done a great job of alleviating one of the main concerns. I see from a lot of dam removal projects and that is involving the stakeholders and especially tribes. So i wanna say good job for the work you guys are doing good will thank you. And i want to emphasize. The skill sets that the tribes have and have developed their restoration. Were key redid as good as it gets from what we've seen so were were very pleased to have them in fall in that aspect of the project and the tribes have built up considerable civil construction skill. And we're also pleased to be having them participate in the deconstruction ice. I also wanted to ask. What is the current stakeholder climate. More up river around the klamath area or up in oregon have people. Are people working together. Well there's still a lot of conversations happening. We enjoy considerable support in the oregon area. There's one damn the john. C boyle dam in oregon and we have worked closely primarily with klamath falls in klamath county. The board of commissioners have been supportive of the city is very supportive. We faced concerned by the irrigation community but have worked diligently with them and there's a more cautious support but they are supportive also. Let's get to hear. Can you remind me how many dams are on the klamath. I'll have to do some counting but one seven seven dams on the main stem of the klamath. So this project is aiming to take out as it two or three of them. Four four of the seven okay. Yeah that's that's better than two or three. the dams that remain are all in oregon. One is an irrigation dam. That is in the hands of the bureau of reclamation and they're charged with improving the fish ladder on the keno dam. The other two are right up at upper klamath lake and are the top. One is a water regulating dam and also has hydro capacity and then below at a small hitro. Damn those all have fish ladders or modernize scan nod invoked in our project. Okay that makes sense. Those two are called the link river dams. You got a name for them. I would like to talk about additional concerns that your audience may be interested in. Yeah go for it. You touched on flooding. And we've done extensive leave work on flood analysis and fled mitigation and what's at risk for flood. Damage are just a handful of residential properties. Just below the iron gate dam and we have a number of different plans depending upon what the residences want will move their houses and reestablish them on high ground will flood proof the houses quarter they sit or will purchase the residences for those who want to sell and remove a. And we're we're in very good contact and believe that our plan is is acceptable for the residences. There you touched on silt and management of sylvia's built up behind the dams. We've done extensive study of those deposits and the silts primarily vegetative matter. It's dead. Algae that has accumulated data material is highly mobile. And we're expecting during the draw down of the reservoirs that that so all will mobilize and will end up in the ocean done of steady of ocean currents and feel that it will disperse nice. Yeah i'm sure there's been a lot of studies and he had to look at a lot of potential outcomes. We sure have let me mention one more. And that is the the work we're doing on same in recovery removal of these dams will open about four hundred twenty miles of salmon and steelhead spawning and rearing habitat with this of the largest river restoration project. Both in the country and in the world and were very excited to look forward to the recovery of the species right. Yeah that's an. It's an impressive projects. And i can only imagine how much money that has gone into it. Well significant that's for sure but we believe occurs well worthwhile. I recently listened to mike bell. Chick from the euro tribe talk about the dam removal process and one of the concerns that he touched on that people bring up is the renewable energy that is potentially being lost by the projects for as you have those hydroelectric dams being taken out but it sounds like pacific for the energy. Generated from those facilities is pretty negligible especially when compared to other potential projects. The power companies can do with wind and solar. Is there anything that you can mentioned on that. I think mike covered that pretty well. The pacific core has been investing in renewable power facilities for quite some time now and is committed to additional transition to renewable olds and they won. They clearly have mitigated the loss of power production from the four dams. They also point out that they're involved in a sixty eight power grid and there is some misconception that the power that's generated on the klamath is us right locally in that area and really not true. It's all part of a very large western power grid right. So i do have one other question for you and if you were to give advice to someone that has a diverse group of stakeholders and getting them all to the table. What what's the best thing you can say. I think what i would say is that we're living in a changing world and relooking at assets that are fifty to a hundred years old and we just have more modern ways to generate sustainable power and at the same time we can open up the river through a significant economic development benefit and i would just call for people who are skeptical about this to continue to attend the meetings that we hold and review materials that were producing those who remain skeptical. I would encourage to make their feelings. Heard and the real decision makers will be a federal energy regulatory commission and the commission holds open meetings from what we've seen seriously takes the input from all parties. And that's really your best way to try to accomplish. Any change that you think would be beneficial to the project. Perfect you guys at the krc have a newsletter that you can subscribe to on the website which gives good updates as there. Any other place can go to collect information. If are interested. We'll wrap certainly our best attempt to keep the public informed. And as i mentioned earlier when there are public hearings. That's a very formal way both to attend and be informed or to contribute to to the discussion right. A is there anything else you'd like to mention. Why still have you here. I think i've covered what i wanted to contribute. And i really appreciate to the questions you've asked and i hope between the two of us. We provided good information for your audience. I appreciate you reaching out to To achieve on this project trump. yes. I've been wanting to talk about the klamath dams for a while now and you guys were very responsive and i really appreciate it awesome. Well thank you. Oh i've enjoyed my time with you all the best and certainly tried to be present when this project starts it is going to happen. When did you say that you're hoping to start. The process the formal there'll be preconstruction activity but deconstruction start said january. One twenty twenty three. And you might find this interesting. We spend three months drawing the reservoirs down then we start the actual deconstruction which all four dams will come down at the same time and the deconstruction will occur over only a six month period. Oh wow it's gonna look like an ant hill that'd be impressive it will. How long do you guys anticipate other restoration activities happening and association. The restoration is a much lengthier. Time period were already started on yet. Were propagating Huge supply of native vegetation that will be used in the restoration but the the restoration activity will play out over about six years. I s that's gonna be interesting to see that as well. It sure will. Yep i. Well thank you again. It was great talking to you most. Welcome thanks you on the day. The music on this podcast was quiet. Fury by the music teller you can find him at the music teller dot com the best way to support. Our podcast is intel like-minded friend or colleague. Human interaction is important. You can also visit our web page at resonant restoration dot com and sign up for our newsletter and find links to our patriots page. You can also find us on social media such as instagram facebook and twitter so stay tuned for resonant restoration and thank you for listening.

california oregon klamath river renewal corporat humboldt county klamath river dams society for ecological restora Trillium kirby yoshie klamath river jim root hookah karuk klamath Jc boyle rot disease governor kate brown app department of interior and pacific core pacific corps pacific court supreme court of california
Are Unequal Societies Unhappier?

The People's Countryside Environmental Debate Podcast

19:19 min | 3 months ago

Are Unequal Societies Unhappier?

"To stretch your thinking especially around green issues sustainability and many other questions that you the nerve sentenced to us. This is the people's countryside environmental debate. Podcast thanks once against being with us financially. Mangla photographer and i also hosted a weekly live show on my facebook page shot at an angle every week pm gmt not looking to allow moisture studio is your the co host of the show. I'm still waldman. My job is getting people out there in tonight. Show in many ways as possible. I lead walks do radio show as i've done some filming i'll give talks. We're going to be having a conversation today. Williams from a listener in america's giving us a more of a statement than question and we're gonna chat we're not gonna buy when explorer Just two men in office in experts and just chow in got people thinking about experts but we have a lot of experience. Life experience seventy is stewart. Said we have a very beyond during discussion. I simply have always enjoyed good meandering discussions and the tangents you go off because that's where the good stuff is right. Interestingly the other day it was two days ago Somebody said to me. I thought the people can decide. Environmental debate podcast. I assumed that all our listeners are in the countryside. Actually well i said was most of our listeners seemed to be in cities across the world are wanting to reconnect with nature and my in my experience. Many people who actually live in the countryside see more disconnected to it so that was an interesting interpretation. But what we wanna do through this. Podcast is hopefully inspire anybody who is listening to get out. I mean market difference to the nights. You're on their doorstep. On your doorstep sa- compensation meandering of cloud in the sky for psyches with the with a flatter. This is ridiculous anyways. Here's the question from the statement when it spreads in cal- food you actually come possibly favorite cities in america is cisco actually be He sent me message. Sent me a message william alongside the question and it says okay. He's listed he's listened to this podcast joining the covid series that we did in spring and summer. Twenty two thousand eight drifted a collision right. And he said he's drifted away but is drifted back again recently. And it's nice to see that we're still here and he's actually sent. Thank you to allowing listeners. To set questions even though he hasn't said before. Because you are part of the discussion. Part of this this podcast. You're major buying. We've said before previously that aren't even forties. We are not experts in signed so we just we just have opinions too opinionated forty year old right and we are the same as you. If that makes any sense you know we we all part of this together. We want to be a was like it could be a beginning. Could pick a subset of communities of respects. Yep indeed Do you wanna read out his statement. Also statement statement. Yes it feels more like a standard rather than the question. But there's a lot to unpack in here. So he says unequal societies seemed to be the most unhappy hearing california's office. Manila purpose welfare could be americans. Don't get anybody. Sport is lacking intern. People's lives around. Just a distancing goal now compared from when brent was a child when it was more accept accepted the poor are dismissed. It can happen to anyone the rich while the poor and the poor the rich. It's a lot to unpack. it is in there Where do you. Where do you want to start with that. Because i was just thinking about the whole idea of the possible is president. You know how we can look back our shoulder and feel that he was we we are. The world was a fair replacing the place when we were younger dots to connect to the press. The thing that jumps out at me initially on this is remember what book is one of. My show was because you're looking after molly molly place. The way assuming about trees secret life of trees or something. It's a little book and in that as a statement says the oak trees when you in an woodland that all interlinked by their roots. So you have these big trees. I on that route spread and then you get a younger trees struggling. They connect to the big oak trees. Lee routes on extraction energy from the big tree to allow them to get bigger which means the big oak tree doesn't grow quite so massive. Sounds like a big too in the background to the the big oaktree ceases to be quite so dominant but the smaller trees become a little bit more successful because they're supported so actually and woodland is a community of trees the the large ones sacrifice their ability to dominate for the benefit of the smaller. Ones being a little bit more ibew on this a little bit of a four hour human beings could be as agreed with stronger is listened to what you were saying that you previously almost feels like that those oak trees or actually tree. You know we have one organism. And they're individually trees. They're all attached to each other. Although have those threats right. And i think we this idea of the poor. The rich stowed want the poor and the rich. I just don't think it's that black white rich and poor. I mean i think in this context a brat. You're talking about to about money out. Because richard is important. Importance can be can be anonymous. We've other things. Other things i've read richness of i much rather have richness of review around me a native wild rabbit than that have a huge bank balance and not an concrete jungle. He knows riches. And i mean going back to the oak trees. The dominant could be considered as the rich. You know and the struggling ones could consider the paul. That's a situational thing that some people who go back to the woodland some people would say well. If we cut down the lodge mature tree that will allow the weak ones to actually come up and take over and dominate actually. It doesn't always happen because when you cut the large tree down the main food source of these week of trees is is removed and so they don't come and take over as much as you would think guidance another analogy if you if you remove the rich financial rich or situational rich wherever the working classes in society human society isn't necessarily gonna come on replace because you need a mix of everything. He has the balance this missing in this. Yeah this is about is also mistrust of people that do have a lot of money. And there's there's no decision that if you if you you do have a lot of money then somehow somewhere along the lines you've cheated for it will you've you've you've you've done bad things to get to that point. I'm just thinking adjustment jet bay's offseason sort of what people what people think about him being the first world's the world's first trillion that he really did that cash but it's richness such a bad thing. It depends what he's doing with that cash. Yes but that's the thing. Yeah i've been. There is not going to be based the money. Surely he should be on to decide what he does. This whole this whole this whole statement because it does next statement from the question. There's lot there's still a lot of patchiness really is and we're talking about welfare. America was the welfare in america. Needs americans don't get any money sports landing into people's lives around. I've always stayed in seeing from a european perspective from british perspective. The america's always be a touch of the individual strengthened but also potentially doubtful is always been a frontier nation and historically speaking is quite young nation. Isn't it yeah. And it was founded upon those principles of individuality individuals lights out the most imported that also comes comes with a cost of eight big. You need to make her a little south. Made biden america is the us especially. He's he's a he's a very big business. But something pops into my head before again. I i had some american friends not taking them on a walk around in. We took him to the camera and we were looking at it from the from the the rice exeter college gardens looking down and massey josh. They were lovely couple and massie said to meet you know. This square is older than my entire country. And i said i think your latin mass existed before the pilgrims went over but it was quite a but this square at oxford his older than my entire country young country country. Yeah and we have to remember that about is balancing this bouncing here in the. Us is march goodness much rich and the and the world as well. I mean look abusing. Look at music. Vis-a-vis the great example. Whatever the root rates of those music that is not much to world but getting back to united some people look at the rich. And i don't trust them. He's that another way of showing the other people resent them in an entitlement. They should have that as well. Actually stereotyping on the people say complain. The environmentalists stereo talked but actually are stereotyping. The rich saying you know we don't know how you made your money but it must have been bad. Oh you made it. But i don't think there's any wrong with making money what you do with that. So it's the it's the balancing in judging we need all look at you make a million. You've made to believe house say you must do. You must've stood. Somebody showed us. You must've trump some video. Got rid wraps up. Sort of law to to make that much money rather than it. Just be like you've come up with a really good idea. Yeah that we need. We did what is in this question The poor Dismissed an it could happen to anyone was at jeff as you mentioned snow. Yes yeah he's the richest potentially one of the richest people on the planet. It could something bad could happen to him. He could end up being poll on wall. Shouldn't he have the support when he's down that and so this brings up. Yeah i mean. Everybody needs supporting because in theory i said at the beginning where a group as a stronger in a would be set aside. The rich get richer as a group with stronger. If the if the people who are lower down in society are given the opportunity to meet that potential. I was just trying to strive for a balance in these in these conversations. And i'm fine with this. I have on the to try and try and find out onto this specifically why just because it's especially especially especially really touches upon my life quite considerably. I've been to situations where. It's quite obvious that i am the poor. Not the rich and sometime and situations that that'd be the reverse as well so he's trying to trying to find the ballots and trying to sound of john china preaching trying to sound. I don't wanna would come across talking down to anybody. All ram judging somebody just because of their situation and that's not the pumps are trying to strike with this. The whole idea of richard paul. That's the thing and i'll go back to gobble. Gobble compensation last year with a friend of and They asserted that the situation. If you've got money basically you'll fine. And i said well that's not necessarily true. You could be very rich And you might have my have access to a lot of things that the people who don't have money you want struggling to get by third have but you also might be somebody. He lives on their own. And we're gonna talk about the next exit about nowadays. The could actually be very lonely. Loaded and this is just as bad as is in itself is is is a form of poor. Port is full of lack of something isn't it. I think the rich In in lockdown aren't necessarily bets up because they fear that might be the people who don't have a fear of what they're going to lose whereas if you've actually got nothing the only fair you have not the only fair i large fair is fair of survival. Are you going to get through. It added the rich. They're gonna know they know they're gonna get through it but what's it gonna look like on the other side you know but what you said about you've seen yourself. You could be considered rich and then tried. It could be considered poll that entry patent lapses of time so fairness and welfare and wellbeing. A momentary lapses in time. So going back to this woodland's where that an oak woodland is stronger if they were together. We're stronger together but we also work together in momentary moments in time. Because that's that's what history is is moments of time will join together. We often say an action or at all in this conversation to for you to think about d listener. How can you make the next set of moments in time better for you and for the people around you in the world. As a whole yeah. That's a good. Nothing is a good conclusion to this. Podcast it's definitely let you are a very long meandering conversation. Going off into different tangents may have made decisions from already experiences and You you will listen to this. You listen to this podcast. Right now will probably agree with will agree with us in equal equal measure. Right so yeah it's not about roy. Wrong is about you know. In the as we said in the previous episode these are conversations that need adding and this is one of them and not having wants with different people multiple times. It has been just in just reflecting them out. There was a word that was on the edge of my. My thinking is just pocketed by down. Which is this whole idea of brutal brutality when it comes to you have to be quite brutal with the truth and not to be with yourself i think. Sometimes that's what aiming for but we ended up being coming across like. I don't really want to be not you have to. You have to have on on on this conversation with yourself and other people around you who really. Yeah i'm honest. Conversations with people not just rich and poor but didn't participate could be black could be disability. Could be nearer divaesque could be could be on and on all the. We had a question recently about. Should we have a mainstream day all the different Groups in society needs to have a voice in this And i don't know where the says. All i have no idea but it is You do rise. A whole kind of wins over there in california. Yeah thanks for. Thanks with in. And i'm glad you enjoyed the series as well. We how series ho series spike in twenty twenty they down and listen to that recently Because it's good. It's about two zero just to just get reflections because we often stewart and i often record a podcast episode. I wanna move on from it so quite quickly because we're moving on to the next question and the nets be of the chevy. What off necessarily forgetting about it but we do. We don't have to move on from this. It's good to reflect back on it and listen back to that and there was really interesting reflections and insights in there. And i i can. I can hear my own mood changing with ever recording. Ny did and go through the whole lockdown process. Say the bundle. If the lockdown of the kobe packages available and patron for two pounds. I think people can download that bundle. So how can they find some patriot. William patriot dot com voice. Us people's patriot is about p. a. t. r. a. dot com first people's countryside. And there's a fourteen is that as the record. Uk on the much. There's a good chance that's going to be an extra tier one office nasty disappears up. We i that go there. There's there are various things that you can use. Get extra stephen gap extra downloads. Extra content behind the scenes material. We we did actually either recently. Where you there's a level where you can actually you can meet and greet us. You know we're gonna have a q. And i called visitation every couple of months couple months. And you know. I was just thinking what i was one of. We will put this together recently. The actually we save fifteen minutes. But there's a good charter. All all new. The you can engage with a online q. And i ask called world protect her so look out for world protector on our patriots. Page On that under our next episode when we will have a question from a frau law in germany. Alberto jim did she specifically where germany fair enough big countries. Jim thanks for listening to this. Podcast we appreciate every. So what if you show five zero french right now before you before we sign off.

America Mangla molly molly society human society waldman rice exeter college gardens massey josh stewart Manila brent john china cisco Williams facebook massie william california Lee biden richard paul
Agatha Christie's Countryside

Get Sleepy

52:31 min | 2 months ago

Agatha Christie's Countryside

"Welcome to get sleepy a podcast where we listen. We relax and we get sleepy. I'm your host thomas. thanks for joining me tonight. I hope your monday was bright and positive. And i hope that knowing you have a new get sleepy episode to listen to once the days three or waste brings comfort and gives you something to look forward to not the start of each new week in case. You're not aware we send out a weekly newsletter to mailing list subscribers every monday in which we tell you about the upcoming episodes and give you a bit more background information on the inspiration behind them. We even in asleep tip each week. That might help you rest even better and of course any news or updates from the team will be included that so if that sounds like something. You'd like to peruse with quiet cup of tea or coffee. On monday you can subscribe to our newsletter completely free of charge of course by going to get sleepy dot com and entering your email address in the box at the bottom of the home page. This evening will journey to the south west of england and visit the holiday home of dame agatha christie known as the queen of crime. She wrote more than seventy five books and created some of the most famous fictional detectives of all time. Tonight we'll step into her wild and imagine the inspiration. She may have drawn from her tranquil summa surroundings. Thank you tonight. Sponsors Mute snoring for that support. If you find you often wake up feeling congested or perhaps you disturb your partner or they disturb you with noisy snoring. Three tonight mute. Snoring has a simple but affective solution for you then nasal later has helped seventy eight percent of uses to breathe better and seventy five percents of uses to snow less mute. Simple solution is comfortable to wear in your nose own. Not long and improves your afla. By an average of thirty eight percent a listeners of get sleepy will receive ten percent off and free shipping. just go to mute snoring dot com slash. Get sleepy and use the promo code. Get sleepy ten at checkout. That's m. u. t. s. n. o. r. i. n. g. dot com slash. Get sleep pay and use the code. Get sleepy one zero for ten percent off your patches plus free shipping now before we make our way to the south west of england. Let's take some time to relax over. The responsibilities and demands of the day are done. If you sense any remnants of the day lingering in your body and mind just acknowledge that and then reassure yourself that today's events on now with thing of the past you can let go of the past and come fully into the present. What cousy special spot. They says laying on a comfortable bed breathing. Slowly and smoothly. Closing your eyes. If you haven't already done so then simply just focus on my voice. I feel so blessed to be able to bring a sense of calm and reassurance team to me my voice is simply my voice but the fact that it can help you get the rest you deserve. I can't tell you how much that means. And so you as you listen if your mind drifts away wondering in different directions as it very often. Well that's absolutely fine. You can just bring your focus back to the here and now back to my voice a mea imagery that i'm about to describe graduate. You'll draw clarissa and closer to that pleasant border between conscious thought and the land if dreams so as we turn to our story for tonight let the sensations of your band drift away replaced by a cool breeze in the distance you can hear the sound of water lapping ashore and bites creaking gently as they bob up and down looking at your feet you can see. You're standing on an old wooden dock ahead. A small white ferry is anchored at the end of a sunni peer. And this is where we begin our adventure. You're standing in line with a handful of other passengers patiently waiting to begin your voyage on the white ferry. Today the boat will carry you along the beautiful river dog. The pride of devon in south west england inhaling slowly you enjoy the cool fresh air entering three ot nostrils it brings a clean The calmness to your throat chest and lungs flutes way. Carry it upon the gentle morning breeze. It's a beautiful picture. Pathak today. And you're thankful for this moment when you can just take you to lynn. Buffy the sky is a watercolor ably and the sun shines brightly bringing the scene before us her life in an array of boned vivid comments behind you is the town of dot situated aside and river docked. It's an idyllic picture of quaint cobbled streets and chewed buildings. Recognizable by the black and white. To paneling of eric steria. The morning stillness is punctuated only by the sound of seagulls crooning giving the impression of a classic english seaside town which has stayed very much the same for generations in front of the boat shines emperor lynched white as a boggs gently. Khun down in the scien- blue oughta. It will take you to green wiki when you disembark and head on to greenway house the holiday home of agatha christie and a place where she have family found so much joy and relaxation q. Begins to shuffle forward. You make out the white navy. And goan have a captain's cap above the heads of passengers in front with each step closer to the boat. You feel yourself. Relax a little bit more preparing to settle in your river voyage reaching the front of the queue. You hand your ticket to the captain with a bright carefree smile key places your ticket into a handheld device and presses down leaving the mp blue stamp of an anchor upon the rectangular slip of paper retaining the ticket to your cat. He welcomes you aboard. You've picked the pacific time to come. He adds explaining that today. Only the boat is operating a special meal. Service you have to do is find your seat and someone will be right on to take your drink korda you place. The ticket in your pocket and had up stands where the boats open top offers. The best views moving to an empty table. You take a seat overlooking the water you captivated as a shimmer and ripples sunlight dancing across the sophists until the gentle hum of the phares engine that she knew it's beginning to move the ferry tons. Maneuvering its way. Out of dartmouth harbour you pass by more vessels of all shapes and sizes sat against a backdrop of lush green hills. Waiter appears beside you in the aisle and offers to take your order before departing with a smile. The warm familiar voice of the captain crackles to life through the shipboard speakers. He wishes you on a pleasant voyage and promises to provide occasional comment tree about the sites young encounter along the way after a few moments. The waiter returns and places. Trae down on your table. It's a classic devonshire cream. Tea with a warm parts of english t alongside plate of freshly baked sky onus. I smell utterly delicious. Aside them sets apart of fiqh clotted cream and another filled with sweet strawberry jam. It's a treat. The south of england is famous for you. Lash layers of cream and jam onto one half of the screen watching the bright to rant and soft white blend together with the crumbs one bite after another you to fowler wonderfully indulgent local delicacy washing it down with the warm soothing t how pleasant it is to dine outdoors under a blanket to radiant sunshine surrounded by views. Like these you think from the speaker. Captain explains that this area holds a special protected status falling within the three hundred thirty seven square kilometers classified as the south devon area of outstanding national beauty. It's not hard to see why you think as you marvel at the ever changing scenery on phoning a for your eyes as you move away from dartmouth. Lush canopy of trees that at fast sets behind the buildings moves right up to the water's edge. According to the captain the river's name is likely of celtic origin. Meaning river where oak trees grow hughes seem to rise from the wartime proudly displaying the ancient oak woodland that covers every inch mike clouds of green. They rest upon the land concealing a multitude of wildlife beneath a swaying. Emirati canopy the animals and mostly hidden from view about. You're aware of their presence from the pace of bad sound that fills the air off one side of the boat. You sponsor family of artists floating in the river lay on their backs with farry brown bodies outstretched relaxing out a care in the well. The captain director attention to the riverbank downstream. Why the canopy opens to reveal to bridge. It's viaduct with thick stone. Pillars routed into the ground and a massive open archway spanning the distance between them. You can hear the familiar chunking and whistling of an old steam train. Which you're told was agatha christie's usual method of traveling to and from have been levied greenway. Just then you spoke to the front of the train. Imagine from the woodland with a plume of steam rising from a chimney at its head following it with your eyes. You may the green and red passenger carriages along the bridges tracks. It's no wonder that tag miked to travel by train. He think after room the views must be spectacular from all the way up there. What would have caught her attention from has seat by the window. You wonder what inspiration and comfort. Macchia found gazing out across the landscape as quickly as they came. The train has gone disappearing into the dense woods. Once more it's continued journey is marked only by a wisp of smoke from the chimney that rises in a moving line through the friendly itch. You're channy usa. Continues wonderfully scenic voyage peppered with sites of natural and historical in along the way. Captain doesn't marvelous job of narrating your journey saying just enough to incite urine trust and then pausing announcing your own quiet perfection reclining leisurely into your chair united building with brick and a triangular roof that stands out against the greenery around. The captain. explains that this boathouse. Once belonged to sell walter raleigh a soldier writer explorer and member of landed gentry during the beef and era ships. Same from this very place to begin their travel around the world in the fifteen ninety s rally sailed to south america later writing overblown account that contributed to the mystery and intrigue of the legend of dorado. This city of gold centuries later says the captain this would become one of agatha christie's favorite places to sit and relax being that she loved the water night and day. She could spend hours contemplating these mysterious and magical taps high above the shooter boathouse. You see a patch of dan white. You've arrived at greenway house. The queen of crimes holiday home and waterhouse it is a strikingly sophisticated building high upon the hill peeping out from behind dense shroud of flowers and fairly inch from the tone of his voice. It's clear that a captain shows your own. At this view he explains agatha christie described greenway as the loveliest place in the world and whilst he's seen it hundreds of times himself it's magic as never deemed you can fill the boats slowing down as you approach is stone dressing out of the water ahead. The fairy comes to a halt. You look down stance thanking the captain for a voyage. That was as fascinating as it was beautiful. He smiles warmly and hands you a small paper map of the estate folded in hav just in case she needed he says in his own experience they since the pathak place to get lost issue explore you disembark onto the smith stone of the key side ahead of you. A few other passengers ambu away in different directions an elderly couple with a teenager in tow heads to a cafe in a charming wooden pavilion to enjoy warm cup of tea to your right. A middle aged woman stands by the waterside taking photographs of the scenery with a camera. You begin to stroll up towards greenway road feeling a strange sense of familiarity. As you've been here before us that you might recognize it from being described in the pages of a mystery novel agathon loved greenway so much that she sat and number of books in and around it. Perhaps you've seen it on screen. You realize off to roll. The television adaptation of her novel dead man's folly was filmed right. Hand you smile. And she picked the fictional detective. Coiro thing around these very paths. You imagine the places not true. Beauty would have made it an appealing filming location. To ambling up the hill towards the house you pass by batches comforting glossy ivy above them batch beech ash and oak trees rustling lee fianc and extend known fingers as if welcoming you to the path off to your left you can still make out the tranquil waters of the river through the gaps in the woodland as you round the next band. You know you're getting close you reach out and run your hand long. A cool stone moon buddhist the path and gays up into the canopy of trees dominates the sky. One particularly grand duke catches your eye. It's tomb and whiter than several people standing together. How many years has it kept walked over. This verdant landscape seen countless changes over the centuries. Many things remain justice you through cast iron gates painted a shade of cream. That reminds you of those wonderful scones and the luxuries clotted. Cream ahead of you. Many more two trees that these kathleen planted in even raise the ground is scattered with blue balance. That spark when the sunlight mike gemstones upon a carpet of bottle green grass. Inhale deeply savoring sweet fragrance. Lacing the an approaching a fork in the road you turn left. The path leads new passed the tennis court situated behind the house and towards a protected space ahead. A glance at your map towns you. It's the south wound garden when you open the white wooden gate. It feels more like a secret garden to you. Say still and unspoilt. A wound is within these rooms. You make your way across a path acclaim manicured lawn and then tomorrow wooden gazebo which offers both shade from the sunlight and three hundred sixty degree views of this glorious garden turning slowly on the spot you cast your gaze over landscape of device and beautiful flora kathleen planted daffodils chew lips and hyacinth booed and the grass painting a portrait of spring vines of every variety crew up the wombs reaching skyward posing for a minute you allow your attention to simply rest upon this wonderful place to be here justice. You are surrounded by spectacular beauty after few magic moments. You are ready to explore onwards. You make your way out of this secret garden. And into another the northbound garden you pause for a moment to gaze through the transparent panes of glass building this is the peak chows an indoor arboretum. Fula freak trees the gloss greenhouse is built directly against one of the brick wounds jotting out and down like half sacriston is you wonder inside and find yourself on a narrow path surrounded by family itch to your right. A row of plants climbs the brick wall tendrils stretch up from damp beds of soil creeping skyward and occasionally brushing against your arm. As you pass to your left frames of interlocking mesh hold an assortment of plantlife raise tie upon morton stands basking in radiance from the womb sunlit windows you see peaches nectarines and eight procuts sparkling june's amongst leaves of emerald a favourite of agathis. The sweet velvety peaches have grown at greenway for generations. How wonderful it must have been to have such an abundance of this luscious from you wonder. At the number of delicious crumbles in cakes puddings and pastries it might have featured in finding your possession upon the map again. You make your way out of the north wound garden and follow the path around two once. The front of greenway house itself hadn't thought it possible. The house is even more impressive. Close up and it had been from the water below built in the late. Seventeen hundreds when king. George thad sat upon the throne. It bears all the hallmarks of georgian architecture displaying. A perfect balance of classic greco roman design and english country house. Handsome white facade forms a tool rectangle with three floors bearing five impressive windows each looking out over the beautiful grounds on either side of the main core of the building to single-story extensions johnstown nike children standing beside a parent sneak creamy pillows support by the front entrance way on the to smolder attachments. A team aside allowing enough space for a table in chas under the shelter of a grain site to roof it surprising rennie that building so traditional and regan win appearance fills warm welcoming and utterly unpretentious as this. It's no wonder agatha christie loved greenway so much you think. This is the kind of home that makes you feel instantly. It's walking towards the front. You enter the house through goss paneled. Double doors and step into the hallway. Your met with creamy wounds decorated with a mix of fine under local art and polished more than cabinet showcasing rather floral collection of tea pots and paints. You remember the words of the captain as you cross the passion. Rock lining the steiner flow. Might be roth a nice to find yourself lost within the wolves of they beautiful and so you wonder from room to ring taking in the rich dark fancher and charmingly english ankle on every shelf. And safm you see onum aunts vases treasuries and trinkets items that speak. Not only to the taste of the hung's former owner to say to her sentimentality alongside the ornate golden mirrors and fine bone china photographs and relatively inexpensive objects. You'd solely for the joy and memory lane provoked. You've passed by many clocks large and small during your tour of the house. A sense of time is noticeably. Absent here greenway. You consider that. These rooms might be compared to the pages of a mystery. Novel providing fresh clues about the story of its water and life of particular note is the library were unique. Wartime scene plays out across the upper half of all four wounds. He shades of blue cocky black and white. It was painted during the second world wool when the house was briefly. Used by the us coastguard. Imp- reparation for d day. It was painted by lieutenant. Marshall lee landing craft captain who was also a skilled test. It tells the story of the men's johnny. Your is wash over it now. Marveling at the intricate detail the flank soldiers and ships and the water as lifelike as thought which you traveling with opponent only a short time ago underneath the images accounting ribbon displays the names and dates of places explode from bermuda to norfolk ending about the doorway with their arrival when dartmouth and greenway house. Such an oddity. It is contrasted with the decor of this fine georgian home and yet somehow it seems pathologically placed agatha christie. Refused office to paint over this cooled. Graffiti saying she was delighted to have such a memorial to history upon green ways wounds beneath the mirror. To why shown house a plethora of berks showing you the tag a-this passion for writing was matched only by her love of reading. It was a favourite pastime. Greenway especially because they swear. She came to unwind year after year. Reaching once the you pull down. Burke one of agassi's own might matter mystery novels. It fools opening your hands revealing a photograph inserted within it shows a happy family. Sitting around the fire. You recognize agatha in her sixties or seventies reading from a book as the adults and children. Listen captivated you say recognized. The drawing room replacing the book upon the shelf you walk towards that now with the image of the photograph in your mind just inside the doorway you poor comparing the room in the picture to the one in front of everything is exactly as it wants to your eye. At least the same plush sofas and chairs positioned around coffee table the fireplace glowing pleasantly beneath a classic white mantle. Wants a treat. It must have been to sit here night after night. Taking in a few more chapters of the latest mystery years ago you read that amongst tire. Great accomplishments agatha was also a trained classical pianist. She declined to play pop like she loved to do so for her family. It's no great surprise them to see grand piano in the corner of this room. It san teak wood is so well polished that you unexpectedly catch a glimpse of your own reflection in its glossy surface. Your face is a picture of happy contentment with maybe the slightest hint of oncoming sleepiness yang. Quietly as you let your as come to rest on. A number of framed photographs on top of their piano. Many of these pictures show agatha throughout her life as glamorous young woman of the nineteen twenty s a wartime nurse wearing the uniform the red cross and later as daunting grandparent she became arise poor soup on the final picture. One you've never seen before it. Shares the author reclining upon a chair in front of a blazing fireplace through the windows of must be the boathouse. You see had darkened sky full of stars among the many sources of inspiration agatha christie found in and around greenway united this particular spot while this mysterious by taus is similar to one in hab that man's folly and you can't wait to see it with your own eyes and so with one last glance at the map you leave this beautiful room and the welcoming atmosphere of greenway house king outside you see that the sky above you is wrapped in the darker hues of dusk. The journey to the boathouse. He's an easy one. And your legs seem to float downhill mice. St- of their own accord the grounds look different. This time of evening e think more dreamlike than in daylight passing the camelia garden. You observed that the flowers seemed to glow in the dim. Gross like pink and white starts hanging in a night sky. You smell them to that. Deep floral aroma carrying upon a cool and gentle breeze. Change in air tells you that you're nearing the water soon. After the high who's of the boathouse come interview strolling across. Its front entrance. You stand for a moment looking out at the deep dark kariba the wartime reports and rocks back and forth justice before only it's the moonlight dot says across its surface now pale white with hints of golden amber reflects from the window behind you sleepy pursuit of this soothing. Glare you enter the towns. As if in a dream you find a roaring log fire set. With a a beautifully ornate fireplace the mantelpiece is topped with santa graphs and keepsakes mementos of a life wild justice. In fact you see the chat with its comfortable cushion sitting down on it. You enjoy the soft rich fabric beneath year between you and the fireplace his own wooden coffee table upon which sits a cup of steaming liquid the faintest tin peaches emanates from the cunning wisps of steam reaching the smith handle. You bring the cup tea. Your lips enjoying the aroma of succulent fruit. Slowly you set the delicious peach team. Every mouth. Phone brings more comfort and contentment last placing the cup down you lean back reclining your hand against the and collecting your eyes drift dances in your mind's eye and yuri internet sound sleepy crackle phone. Your mind wanders to thoughts of mystery and intrigue dreams of peaches and stunning shimmer across the river

agatha christie greenway house greenway white ferry eric steria england white navy dartmouth harbour farry brown Macchia Pathak south west england ambu Coiro clarissa
August 20, 2019: San Jose Mayor On Gun Insurance; Native American Voters

Here & Now

41:23 min | 2 years ago

August 20, 2019: San Jose Mayor On Gun Insurance; Native American Voters

"This message comes from here and now sponsor indeed. If you're hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions then zero in on your your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started at indeed dot com slash n._p._r. Podcast the city of san jose is considering a proposal that would make it. The first in the country to require gun owners carry liability insurance. The city's mayor sam lombardo says he was compelled to put forth this proposal. After three people died in a mass shooting in gilroy just south of the city. Two of the victims were from san jose under the mayor's proposal liability would cover accidental sydell shootings and acts committed by someone who stole a gun but would not cover any intentional acts by the gun owner. This proposal comes as the nation debates how to address arrests mass shootings in the wake of the horrific fatal shootings in california texas and ohio. Mayor lombardo joins us now to discuss mayor. Welcome good. It'd be with you tanya. You compare this bill to requiring car insurance. Can you make that case well. We know that the use of automobiles results in almost almost forty thousand deaths a year <hes> we know most of those from accidents of course gun similarly 'cause about forty thousand deaths a year in this country although most by suicide we know that there's a lot of accidental death and injury seventeen thousand people. You're are injured in in gunfiring and we know that they're safer measures. That could be taken. We know that four point six million children live in households where a gun is both loaded and unlocked and insurance can force people to engage in safer behavior whether they get good driver discounts or discounts for airbags or perhaps perhaps discounts were having a gun safe and for having a child safe walk on the god <hes> well of course we know the supreme court has said that americans have the right to keep and bear arms arms. If this bill is passed. You probably have some court challenges. Some people might say the requirement would prevent people from exercising their rights. What do you say to that. We do expect to be lawsuits as there always are with any gun regulation but while the second amendment protects the right of individuals to keep him bear arms it it does not compel taxpayers to subsidize the cost of that choice in right. Now taxpayers are paying extraordinary public health bill for gun violence in the state of california. It's about one point four billion dollars between hospital police emergency medical response. What's at cetera. Let's talk a little bit about people who can't find or afford insurance. You're gonna require contributions to public fun to cover the cost of gun. Violence silence of the city pays for what are some of those costs in. How much is the city planning to pay. We're going to conduct what we call a nexus study over the the next few months to try to link the activity to the actual cost of the harm and by that i mean we're gonna need to collect the data from the local -mergency room wjr and from the police chief and <hes> from the fire department for its emergency response in all the other folks who are using public resources to respond to due to an address gun violence <hes> in the recent shooting in gilroy we sent more than seventy police officers down there and many fire trucks that is just part of what we deal with on a daily basis with gun violence in this city in every city in the country. The gunman in gilroy used a gun that he purchased in nevada. It's an a._k._47. Style semiautomatic matic rifle. It's already illegal to buy or own in california. <hes> we'll restrictions on city or even a state level really make a difference and steal. There needs to be federal legislation well. Of course i would love to see federal legislation love to see an assault weapons ban reinstated in this country as we had for many respect back in the nineties. There's no question that this measure will not suddenly stop gun violence but at least in the city of san jose we're going to stop making the public pay for worth and if other cities are willing to follow suit and join us and hopefully states than we can ensure more comprehensive protection for the public and i i should also point out that that assailant went to nevada. He was nineteen years old. I think every parent knows how expensive it is to get insurance for a nineteen enroll to drive a car will so similarly premiums <hes> can ensure that folks who should not begin access to guns. We'll be paying more with the little time that i have with you. I wanna ask you about another big law. That just passed in california governor. Gavin newsom signed a use of force bill into law just yesterday that means police in california will be required to use lethal force only as a necessary response to a threat instead of an objectively reasonable response. What effect do you believe. This law is going to have on policing in california well. I not sure i can speak to the entire state but certainly within the city of san jose where we have very active program of training and deescalation deescalation rather and very <hes> stringent review of every use of force. I think we're going to be fine. I think our police officers only use as far as i can tell are pretty well trained to only use guns and deadly force when absolutely necessary and i think it will be a good thing for other departments to be engaged in the kind of stringent reviewed necessary to ensure that deadly forces. This is only used in those times. That's mayor sam lucado mayor of san jose california. Thank you so much for taking the time thank you could be with you and it's day. Two of a rare forum for presidential candidates focused entirely on native american issues today. Five presidential hopefuls are scheduled to address the forum in sioux city iowa author. Marianne ron williamson spoke yesterday. She said she wants the u._s. To atone for its treatment of native americans we will begin by taking that picture of andrew jackson off the wall of the oval office. I assure you i am not a native american woman but i find at one of the greatest insults assaults you will not be insulted. Andrew jackson signed the indian removal act in eighteen thirty. Many native americans consider that an act of genocide minnesota senator amy klobuchar also spoke yesterday she promised to improve the federal government's relationship with tribes and i can promise you as your president i will respect sovereignty and i will strongly believe in government to government negotiations and consultations that that is attention was on senator elizabeth warren who's had issues with the native american community in the past yesterday. She addressed the controversy over a dna test s. She took to prove her native american ancestry after she'd been taunted by president trump. I know that i have made mistakes. I am sorry for harm. I have caused i have listened and i have learned a lot and i am grateful for the many conversations stations that we've had together. It is a great honor to be able to partner with indian country and that's what yeah i've tried to do. As a senator and that's what i promise i will do as president of the united states of america joining us now is jordan bennett annaba gay. She's washington editor for indian country today and jordan start with warren's apology that we just heard how was it received their. I mean you're gonna have everybody on all sorts of the spectrum who who <hes> don't agree with the politicians decisions but then when you come to these events such as this <hes> and this is the second l. native like avandia bench who wished rushed where she received a warm welcome so i mean i feel like non media have focused on her ancestry and they haven't really got to the core of of what native stakeholders want they want candidates to solve their issues are have a plan or have something you know. They're a lot of challenges challenges that any countries dealing with in that's what the media should focus on and that is what elizabeth warren is trying to focus on now. She recently published a set of policies that are geared toward native eight of americans. <hes> this document was twice as long as other policy proposals that she's put out before <hes> promises more money for indian country calls for a new cabinet level. The white house counsel on native american affairs <hes> what else is is noteworthy in her new plan. Oh there's tons of like no were-they things i mean she addresses native youth in the policy policy. She addresses <hes> suicide prevention the <hes> remove the stain act <hes> you can see within the nineteen page judge plan that she definitely you know knows indian countries issues and knows the complexities of it to you referred to remove the stain act. That's a bill that's being considered by congress congress that would rescind <hes> twenty wounded knee medals of honor the u._s. Soldiers were given <hes> during that massacre in the eighteen hundreds <hes> but you know elizabeth elizabeth warren is not the only candidate who's paying attention to this bernie. Sanders has a section on his website dedicated to native issues. Julio castro has a proposal called people. First indigenous communities communities calling for more tribal sovereignty as well <hes>. Why do you think these issues are arguing elevated in this election cycle among democrats this because i think now they're definitely really <hes> paying attention to the native vote and how powerful it is and i also think that it's due to a lot of movements like standing rock that got people to pay attention to native communities and that's why they're there stopping at them walkie nation here in iowa <hes> really ah paying attention jordan benefit gays washington editor with indian country today. She is covering the form on native american issues in sioux city iowa our thanks very much for your time. Thank you so much to and jordan mentioned. The power of the native vote will according to the twenty ten cents is only about five million people identify via native american and alaskan native but native voters could be key in some swing states where they're voting age. Population is more than president trump's margin of victory three in two thousand sixteen those states include arizona michigan minnesota nevada north carolina and wisconsin and while turnout has traditionally been low among among native american voters that number has been on the rise over the last several elections presidential candidates looking for their votes hope the election last year of the first two native american women women to congress will boost enthusiasm and make native americans a crucial voting bloc in two thousand twenty. Now we're beginning to see the fallout of new trump administration rules that restrict federal federal family planning funds known as title ten to healthcare providers if they refer women for abortions a number of states including hawaii illinois in washington state eight are joining planned parenthood and other health providers in saying they will no longer accept titled ten funding which has been used to provide low income people with birth control and reproductive sucked of health screenings and several states will be left without any private health clinics funded by the program including new hampshire. Lisa leach is executive director of the levering health center. One of the clinics affected in greenland new hampshire. Hi lisa hi tonya. How hard of a decision was it to withdraw from accepting these federal funds. It's a great question <hes> and we were there was a lot of discussion surrounding what we were going to do but it was pretty clear that our mission chen <hes> originally for forty years has been as an abortion care provider so we pretty quickly made the decision to withdraw. How will the day to day operations change at your clinic. We're looking at things like <hes> eliminating <hes> the sliding scale fee for service program which is a huge draw for our independent pennant center <hes> unfortunately that may have to be one of the first things we eliminate the other is <hes> eliminating our sti h._i._v. Walk in clinic hours will still keep the program <hes> to the best of our ability but we will have to. We're looking at doing away with the walk in availability program <hes> we're also looking at <hes> we provide a lot of low cost contraception all types and that's another program that we're really looking at. How are we going to be able to continue. Can you to keep those prices low and affordable <hes> for for the large number of folks that rely on us for that because as you you know if we can kenner provide those low-cost contraception programs <hes> to people that need them. It's only going to be more unintended pregnancies and share with us a little a bit about your clinic. <hes> those most affected by this decision to reject federal funding we see all types of clients here at the lowering health center but but a large number of our catch men are folks that are uninsured underinsured at the poverty level and low income families that rely on us. It's also a large amount of of of clients that don't feel comfortable going to what you know. Quote unquote a traditional healthcare provider. They come to an independent health care center because of the immune. It's truly a judgment free health centers unders. We're very worried that these patients they will let this healthcare drop. They won't pursue other options because there aren't any other options for them. Low cost. I <hes> care is important. We also have a very large population of college kids <hes> that come here for reproductive and sexual health not only their our health care but education <hes> and preventative care and counseling and testing and treatment. Some people come here every three months serving these communities. It sounds like it is at the core of your mission. <hes> how are you all in plans to try to find other sources of funding to restore these services or to keep them afloat more looking looking at a foundation grant funding private donations <hes>. We have our our our annual events coming up in october. <hes> it's usually usually a celebration of the health center. <hes> in this year will be a little bit different flare. It's going to be more of a call to action that <hes> right now. We really need the community support. Lisa leach is executive director of the levering health center in greenland new hampshire lisa. Thanks for talking with us. Thank you tony. I appreciate it out of the issue of medicare for all last week. I was in maine reporting on its potential impact on hospitals. Here's peter wright who runs the rumford hospital in rural main. If you're talking about medicare for all and turning everyone of our patients into a medicare patient it would probably mean we'd end up closing our doors. Eventually hospital administrators across across the country are lining up against the plan by some presidential candidates to give every american government health plan. They say medicare. Reimbursement rates are too low to stay in business now. Supporters argue that medicare could pay hospitals more for every procedure and that administrative costs under a single payer system would go way ah down. Let's take a closer look at the numbers with craig garth wait. He's a healthcare economist the kellogg school of management at northwestern university craig welcome in what's your take doc would medicare for all be a net benefit for hospitals or cause some of them to shut down. I think it really depends on what type of hospital you're talking about in terms of what their patient pixes today <hes> so if you're a hospital that serves a lot of medicaid patients or in particular a lot of people who don't have insurance and have a lot of uncompensated <hes> pity care the increase in benefit you'll get from medicare for all would be that those people would all have insurance now and so they would go at the extreme of paying nothing to pay you medicare rape. You'd have more customers in short will you. You might have the same number of customers. You'd have more. Paying customers would be the way to think about it. Remember that hospitals like doctors and do you have to treat all patients who show with an emergency so if you ever emergency room at a patient shows up who's in the -mergency condition. You've got to stabilize that patient regardless of their ability to a pet. If they're covering medicare for all you wouldn't have to worry about that. That's sad private. Insurance tends to pay anywhere up to two times or three times james board than the medicare rate so if your hospital had a bunch of private patients who are now going to move down to medicare. That's gonna cost you a lot of money and so it really is a question question about what the patient mixes that you're seeing today will dictate how medicare for all affects you. I think this is an important distinction because on the one hand it seems like this conversation cleaves down the middle in some ways rural hospitals where many patients are poor. Many of them are using medicare or medicaid. <hes> might be very different than a big big city hospital where payments from private insurance make up the bulk of their business so <hes> it. Should it be that these more urban hospitals have have more to lose. Who's <hes> i mean certainly should've the for lack of a better term the fancy urban hospital to probably the ones that have the most to lose the ones who have used either their market the power in terms of having been one of few number of hospitals in the city or they're really high quality to attract high private prices. They've got the most to lose. Rural hospitals could do well right but there are some. Some of the problem for rural hospitals is just that there are simply not enough patients there to support the hospital hospital whether it's medicaid whether it's medicare whether it's private insurance that the hospital is a really big fixed costs enterprise rural communities get smaller a lot a lot of them just can't support their hospital and we as a country have to figure out whether medicare for all or not right what we want to do about that question in medicare for all may not be enough have to save those hospitals exactly and then we have to think will exactly what kind of hospital we need neural senate. Do we need to sort of you know stabilize you just enough to send send you onto a bigger hospital. That's located in a larger city but that might be one way one way of thinking about is it. Maybe the best thing for rural patience is we invest in a really good fleet of government owned air ambulances and we use the set of local hospital triage and move you to more sophisticated facility for the hospitals in bigger cities <hes> these fancier hospitals as you say that rely on private insurance. How would they adjust to a medicare for all situation. They're gonna have to decrease some of the things that are attractive to private patients today right so they're making investments in both with clinical and non clinical quality so both attracting the top doctors offering really should have extensive procedures but also other things like nice rooms uh-huh and everyone has a private room right all those those all going to have to be scaled back under medicare for all and we'll and we'll get a healthcare system them that probably is a little bit lower quality on average but a bit more equal across right so everyone's going to kind of go to the same kind of hospital because except what's going to be paying the same and we as society just want to figure out whether that's what we want we want that everyone kind of goes to the same hospital but no no one gets to go to a really great hospital on the issue of reimbursement rates. Do you think that lawmakers writing these bills would feel pressure to keep the prices they reimburse hospitals where they are now or maybe even lower because the size of medicare for all program would just be so large by the government could actually use. It's purchasing power to cram down but we pay now note. That's gonna involve raising taxes and unsurprisingly were not having a very sophisticated debate about this point about the the higher taxes for medicare for all because some of those higher taxes are just going to reflect healthcare premiums that you're no longer having to pay right. Get medicare for all. You're no longer paying your health insurance out of your paycheck every week but instead. You're paying taxes to the government the pick by the way is that a valid argument. I mean i hear a lot of the candidates saying that you won't be paying. Premiums copays that sort of thing. Is that a. Is that a fair argument or they right about that. I <hes> we have employed by insurance anymore now. Whether medicare for all would have some premium that that they could structure it that way they can structure she medicare for all to have some type of sliding scale of premium. That's fine but it's a point. It's just a trade off right. The the more you force people to pay premiums get access to medicare <unk> care for all the less. You have to raise taxes to pay for it because you're getting premiums but i think it's disingenuous to say that tax increases are the reason why we shouldn't do it to the extent that those tax increases are supplanting premiums that we otherwise would have been that's craig garth wait healthcare economist at the kellogg school of management at northwestern university and link to my story about medicare for all in its potential impact on a hospital in rural maine the night before his first pursing with catherine o'hara. Dan levy was a little freaked out. This is my first time acting since a lifetime movie that i did with me. Shebarghan ah the stories behind the celebrities every tuesday on it's been a minute from n._p._r. From n._p._r. and w._b. You are i'm peter o'dowd. This is here renou two big american companies have some worrisome news today. The home depot says it's lowering its sales outlook for the year over tariff concerns meanwhile u._s. steel says it's laying off as many as two hundred workers in michigan. The company's stock has plunged since president trump announced a crackdown on foreign steel imports last year m._s._n._b._c. anchor and economics correspondent joins us now. Hey alley so one of the problems at home. Depot looks like is the the price of lumber its way down yeah the price of lumbers down <hes> and home depot sort of included it all in the same sentence they call it. They blame their product of their problems. Comes on continued lumbered price deflation as well as potential impact to the u._s. Consumer arising from recently announced tariffs so it sounds like they're talking talking about the fact that lumber prices are affecting them but you know when it comes to large <hes> large purchases that are discretionary you find that with all this talk of trade war and stock market problems and all of that there may be customers who are <hes> delaying some of their decisions to spend big money on the types of products that make homedepot greatest profits okay but what's the silver lining because home depot shares are up this year and they were actually up this morning yes so expectations right <hes> we saw last week in the midst of a really bad downturn in the stock market. We saw walmart coming out saying <hes> you know expectations are that growth will still be up over the next twelve months. That's what home depot said. <hes> that sales were up three percent overall compared to last year three point one percent in the united states and they still expect it to grow. Oh similarly over the next year the average shoppers ticket the amount they spend was up over last year not a ton but it's up so up is better than down. We're looking for two things right is our is everything going really well and our things doing right now and then there's the issue of u._s. Steel the company announced temporary layoffs that it's great lakes facility ability in michigan more. Maybe coming in september a look at the price of steel. It's down substantially and demand from auto and farm machinery sectors has weakened right <hes> <hes> what's what's going on there and will you laugh really temporary. Two things are going on there. A demand is weakened because prices are up that that then we demand and prices go down so oh the tariffs are an an effect there and then the overall effect of slowing economy some of which may be because of trade war and tariffs some of which may be because the global connie's slowing in the u._s. Economy slowing a little bit. Those are the same problems construction unless construction fewer car sales things like that <hes> union worker which represents the u._s. steel workers said they don't expect any real changes in employment level at the particular one plant in indiana in one plant in michigan but the fact is it's never a good sign when starts slow down we have seen farm machinery and construction machinery <hes> demand plummet actually as a result of the tariffs. The white house has tried to downplay play fears of a recession <hes>. These two stories are not proof that a recession coming but what what can we take away from them about the state of the economy and it's good to know there's virtually never proof until it's underway but what you can take away that consumers who are making a large ticket purchases and industry that are making large purchases are all just thinking about it for a while. It doesn't mean they're not gonna make those purchases but this is what happens when you have uncertainty in the economy. People delayed decision-making when you have enough of that that's what leads to a recession m._s._n._b._c. anchor economics correspondent ali ville she thanks as always a pleasure a major fire burning outside of anchorage. Alaska is forcing evacuations today day. The state is experiencing one of its worst fire seasons on record but it is a different story in california where officials say the number of acres burned down down more than ninety percent this year compared to the past five years and as you may remember last year california had its deadliest fire in state history joining us now scott mclean spokesperson for california's department of forestry and fire protection cal fire in scott acres burned down dramatically this summer why several factors involved in one of the predominant factors of courses the weather keep in mind that right now. We still have a snowpack in place at the upper elevations. We can compare this year to two thousand seventeen where we start off similar but in two thousand seventeen we lost that snowpack fairly quickly and the temperatures started to increase to above a hundred and stayed consistent over a hundred degrees with wins and it looks like there are still fires burning in california but they're smaller right. We have about on average every year about two hundred and fifty to three hundred wildfires every week. Believe it or not that no one really hears about average just less seven hundred acres you know mid year we started out in two thousand seventeen two thousand eighteen with fires of several hundred acres and in comparison did this year since the weather is so up and down cyclical <hes> we're talking about nice cool weather and then we'll go into a hundred degrees and come back down to tight eighties mid nineties but we haven't seen much wind. I think the largest fired so far this year has been fourteen thousand acres called the tucker fire within four service area our largest fires just over two thousand acres. We're wrapping up at thirteen hundred acre fire right now so you can see the comparisons we're looking at just under twenty ninety. Five thousand acres burned to date in california under cal jurisdiction last year same time six hundred twenty one thousand acres well. What a turnaround from last year. When eighty six people died in the camp fire which burned one hundred and fifty three thousand acres but of course people in california know very well that fire fire season can pick up quickly. What are what are the risks down the road. Is you see them well. Historically september and october have been worst months as far as wildfires two thousand eighteen two thousand seventeen. We've had them all across the board starting in june working all the way through december. We are starting to dry out right now. We're looking gonna temperatures in the hundreds again letter part of this week. We've kind of seen it more prominent in the last few weeks so i expect to see that continued warming trend that drying trend humidity's. We're going to start lowering and you're gonna start seeing some fires in the upper elevations here in the near future so we have a long way to go this year no time for complacency yet yeah. That's scott mclean spokesperson for cal fire. Thanks for your time. Thank you very much and another reason. Officials are still worried is because after a century of preventing and putting out fires millions of acres of trees are overcrowded in the forest and more than ready to burn k. q. e. d. science reporter molly peterson visited weaverville california couple of hours from from the oregon border where people are looking at ways to save their forest in their community. This neighborhood is crowded. Many of its residents are sick and often often thirsty so they're vulnerable to fire and yeah these residents are trees ponderosa pine and douglas fir in the post ice age era. There's never been this many trees growing in this spot little entries forrester nicolette steps off a trail on a ridge above the little northern california town of weaverville in the trees as in chaparral below. He sees nuances city. People don't bunch grasses impervious grasp you can forbes in here like we're sunny enough and open up and that's what you would expect expect to see in the underscore even oak woodland his nonprofit watershed center aims to make trinity county forest healthier like spot he points to below cleared of dry tinder scorched in a controlled burn where the trees now can grow bigger with thicker bark proof in the pudding proof that healthier forest matters five years ago on a state route near town a roadside spark caught on brush and lifted into treetops wind pushed flames along the fast moving fire then met this area. It's called five accent gulch. The fire ran head on into this thinned and burned unit and the fire just laid down. The firefighters were essentially able to blanket and put handed out. My home was evacuated as part of that fires. I was very thankful. Five cent gulch's within the weaverville community forest. It's federal land but under special deals called stewardship agreements. Local people set priorities. There alison directs regional ecosystem services for the u._s. Forest service in california korea. We're seeing more and more collaborative. 's narrowly be formed but also be effective in terms of trying to do with forest health issues which is really exciting. That's exactly exactly what's happening. Around the shasta trinity national forest and getting here has been a major shift weaverville grew up around taking things from the land first gold then timber then clearcut logging practices sharpened old tensions into the timber wars of the nineteen eighties and nineties industry on one side environmentalists on the other. You either wanted to use the forest or to protect it sunshine and there's nowhere to hide in a small town so any place people met was a battleground including including this restaurant the trinity alps golf course that's where i'm meet environmentalist. Bob morris was terrible. Death threats were common. People were arming themselves. The forest tore this town apart but over time it brought people back together partly because fire was a risk and partly because what was happening opening wasn't working for anybody when she find areas of agreement you can make progress in progress was huge. The lead to morris's neighbor was the enemy a logger today. They're both part of diverse group. Stewarding the community forest mutual chore respect is hugely dissimilar interests working together and finding common ground and moving forward and making progress. It's finished huge. I'm proud of it at the change. Here isn't just in how people live with each other. It's how they live with. The forest. Not managing is not an effective tool for managing the washed also at lunch with us. Kelly sheen headed the county resource conservation district. He was a kid during the timber wars eating the forest blackberries and running its trails. Take it for granted now. He wants to take care of the forest for the long term and sciences clear. Suppressing fire isn't the best way to do that. I think it's just now that we're starting to understand what fire brings to the ecology of the land anymore. It doesn't seem such a stark choice here between using the forest and protecting it. The people now say the weaverville community forest is proof. They've sold timber from overdone stands and use the money to cover the costs of restoring areas. Most at risk for fire bowl of this isn't just based on what we want is based on science alex cousins sales manager at the trinity river lumber mill but he used to have kelly sheen's job now now he sheen bob morris nicolette are part of a collaborative group. The one approved that this kind of ecologically responsible logging could make millions of acres of federal forest orest less firepower because of the timber wars federal logging took a nosedive in the nineteen ninety s that put a lot of people out of work had fourteen mills. This is the last one standing the county's largest private employer. We've got all our eggs in this basket. There's no doubt we're the next generation that's coming forward and take that you know we wanna see these fours managed. We wanna see this mill as part of that not as the sole reason for that and we're tired of living in smoke all around weaverville our federal forest lands where officials spend more than five times as much fighting fires suppressing them as they do preparing for their inevitable return. We leave it alone at burns. That's probably the one constant and if you thin it out those trees could get bigger and that along with clearing vegetation and controlled burns can make a big big fire lay down crews from nicholas watershed center doing that wherever they can the spring they thinned out man's hans anita in a dense patch of pines one guy fires at torch like a rocket into a pile of cut shrouds aw fire scientists agree that controlled burns make forests healthier and wildfires less catastrophic but over the last fifteen years in california the u._s. U._s. forest service has rarely done them data gathered by the nonprofit news organization climate central show that wildfires have seared ten times more federal forest land. The plan burns have protected people. Here aren't waiting for the federal government anymore over and over in trinity county. I heard this that our forests are more than a backdrop more than a place to store carbon dioxide. We can't afford to leave them untouched. We assume someone else's responsibility wants ability at our peril nicolette the idea that the agencies and institutions of government are going to save us is thous goulette says the forest is our neighborhood and it's up to the people who love it and use it to save it themselves for here and now i'm molly peterson the civil war in syria. <hes> has fallen out of the headlines but it hasn't ended today. There are reports that troops opposed to president assad are pulling out of a key town deep in the rebel-held province of ad-lib syrian government forces have been pounding the town with airstrikes the b._b._c.'s martin patience is following the story from beirut martin. Tell us first more about what's happening in northwestern syria today what we've seen in the past four months as a sustained military campaign from the syrian government backed stop by russia and iran for several months the resigned strikes but in recent weeks we've seen boots on the ground and the focus has been southern eight lip. I am this key strategic time of conscious coon. Now there is fierce fighting in recent days reportedly heavy losses on both sides the the rebels side as well as the government side a man overnight rebels who lungs of that time according to reports. We are getting now. The syrian military has surrounded that time but they've yet to actually answer as far as the rebels are consent. That town has fallen into searing government from an hands. Can you tell us the strategic importance of this town. Conscious mon was the largest town in that part of southern italy was held by the rebels for five years so losing it is a big psychological blow by i think more importantly the mats it sits on key highway which runs from the capital damascus to the city of lampl apple is serious second biggest city in it appears clear that the government wants to try and retake control lavar highway in order <hes> the normal life resumes to syrian government controlled syria. Can you give us a deeper understanding standing of the makeup of these opposition forces in the province right now. Is it right to call them rebels. Are they al qaeda <hes>. Tell us a little bit more about awesome. It's a good question is complex and we're on the ground so often. It's very difficult to know who exactly is fighting who would since the start of this year won't seen as an alliance of jehan this and rebel factions now they're known as high yet thereto sham and they basically control it live which is the last opposition positions stronghold a many of their fighters from al qaeda's former affiliates in syria and therefore h._d. Sizes known is designated as a native a terrorist organization by several countries including the u._s. As far as the syrian government is consent everybody in it live raw vince he's. He's a terrorist but we have to remember is three million people there. The vast majority are civilians on one million of them are children. One one million how involved is russia right now in the fighting there in syria russia has been absolutely key in terms of backing the syrian government russia asia controls. The skies over syria has been carried out many of the the the air strikes that we've seen in recent months waffen adamson series. Your avair strikes to soften up is the military language and then the soldiers moving on the ground in terms of moving in the ground. The russian soldiers tend not to be involved h. Just <hes> carrying out airstrikes offering military advice but i think there's no question that russia's an absolutely key player and a a key backer of the syrian government and many ways when they entered the conflicts three or four years ago they swung the the war in favor of the syrian government mount martin. We've been hearing this week. <hes> increase tensions between turkey and syria. Can you tell us more about that. Turkey in a pretty short remove santa comb boy it supports some of the rebels in this opposition stronghold and i think it shows high complicate the conflict as in a in syria the syrian syrian government or the russians isn't clear who carries out there strike an airstrike landed near to that turkish convoy killed three people injured twelve others <hes> according to the searing government that convoy was going to supply armored vehicles in munitions to the rebels the fighting it so i think once again underscores the tensions between various countries in the region and how potentially war happens in syria could lead to something more serious for all the countries involved. There's been more than eight years of fighting there. Would it be right to say say that. President assad is really won this war. There's no question that is largely defeated the rebels there essentially caged in it lip province last opposition position stronghold but interestingly he says it's not over until he reclaims every inch of syrian soil is he sees it is difficult difficult to know how he's going to move into area which is three million people who say they will not be reconciled to his government's and thanks aid agencies are warning the if the syrian government continues to push into the last major opposition stronghold in syria it risks creating a humanitarian catastrophe okay so that is the big concern and that's why the international community including america have been putting pressure on the syrian government home russia and iran not to push too far into it led because the fear is there could be a bloodbath the b._b._c.'s martin patience in beirut martin thank you thank you.

california medicare president san jose california michigan syria syrian government elizabeth elizabeth warren sioux city gilroy iowa levering health center weaverville Lisa leach president trump united states Mayor lombardo maine
Salt River Restoration

Resonant Restoration Podcast

37:11 min | 5 months ago

Salt River Restoration

"This episode is brought to you in part by the folks over at native ecosystems native ecosystems incorporated as a full service ecological restoration firm based in humble county california. They focus their work on the restoration of altered. Ecosystems and design and implementation projects that restore ecosystem function providing critical habitat for flora fauna and humans. They provide assistance with all aspects of restoration projects from the design and planning phase alway through the construction maintenance and monitoring their staff has experienced designing and implementing habitat restoration projects throughout california and the pacific northwest a specialize in preparing wetland oak woodland and grassland restoration. They are biologist. Ecologist and ecological labor's native ecosystems is a california licensed contractor and certified ecological restoration practitioner. I have personally seen the work. they do. Not only are they professional. They truly care about what they do. Welcome to another installment of resonant restoration amir moderator delving into drams and diagram ecological disturbance down dapper speed project-based delicatessen in the form of restoration projects. The way my name is shawn. And we're bringing you this podcast. From traditional territory and humble county california it is paramount to understand how we interact with land in our everyday life and in our histories futures mixed in with the past and the present. The goal of restoration is often to return to conditions. Crear million pre settlement or those reference conditions are entwined with indigenous land management practices excited for this episode. We're looking at large-scale riverina restoration project that in close proximity location. Although it was recorded on soon because all that stuff going on. They're aiming our restoration labeled go carts to the area ferndale. California salt river is where. We're going and doreen hanson from the humboldt county resource conservation district is going to be leading our virtual vacant. It's a multi phase project spans seven miles. This episode is brought to you by the lovely supporters over at patriotic. When they're helping we continue to go down. These rabbit holes explore restoration projects around the world. Thank you to j. michael simone. Arnie and garin. This show is also brought to you by you are wonderful listeners. We will also post a longer addition of this episode dimitri on for our subscribers information conversation i hate not to have it out in the inter. Ether web another way to support us the telephone about her show. We also now have pay pal button on our website. I resident restoration dot com. If you want to support the show bit. Don't let the sound of recurring donation and we are starting to create video. Can't find on our youtube channel. Next goal is to get a drone to get some electable overhead footage of restoration efforts. Now that we got those pesky logistics out of the way. Let's move on. Let's talk about what's blooming phonology. We're bringing it back. Bring the segment back as say it is the timing variation the patterns and they're always going to look at plus. We are quickly full. Sprinting towards springtime. I don't know if that i was gonna say gopher it's not a go for. I don't know if that groundhog thought shadow or not but that doesn't really matter. It's a wonderful time of year. I've also noticed that it's a good time to look at creeping bent. Grass grasses which is bent grass is for difficult identification one of the traits that distinguishes creeping bent grass. Is that observation of the stolen. 's above ground runners. Sometimes it's not all that apparent especially in crowded grassland communities with compacted soils and other disturbances right. Now they're making a break for it and it seems to be more apparent as far as what is blooming around here. I have seen bermuda. Sorrel a bright yellow non-native that one might mistakenly called clover. It does not produce seeds but forms many persistent bulbs and as an invasive rank of moderate. The cal p another non native that is blooming is vinca major another early season plant. It's also known as periwinkle. This one can be especially problematic and riparian zones it can sprout from fragments and forms robust clusters crowding out native plants. It has invasive rank of moderate for grasses. I haven't seen much blooming. Notice that the non native sweet vernal grass is starting to flour or barley was coming up in one location as well. Common harbinger of spring are cicis or daffodil has been making some appearances as well. Another harbinger and native. Plant is cardini california or milkmaids. I also recently read that. The flower closes its pedals in the late afternoon and will bend before rain to protect. Paul and who heads is pretty amazing. If i don't say so myself this is a great time of year for watching phonology. I love seeing the season progress lately. When i've been walking my dog i've been opting for alleys for one. Delectable reason people don't tend to mow or manage their alley interfaces as much as their front yards is a great way to see what grasses are in your neighborhood and see what potential non native plants might be in the vicinity right and moving on. Let's see what's going on with the resource conservation district over in ferndale california with the salt river. Get at it paid or powder as one might be inclined to say prior to a transition and welcome to the podcast. We have doreen from the rtd. And can you tell us a little bit about your background and your self everybody. I'm during johnson. A work for the humboldt county resource conservation strict a roundabout way Getting into this particular type of resource habitat restoration. I actually Roger waited with an advanced degree in and natural resource economics. And i was really interested in marine fisheries in worked in that or about ten years after my my degree and i ended up having to work for the forest service up in the sierras and started doing a lot of fishery work there but more stream stream restoration stream monitoring and then came into the humble area and worked. Ihs you for a while. I was an associate professor and also an associate researcher and some marine fisheries than kinda bounced back and forth and then ended up at the humboldt county resource conservation district being a watershed coordinator doing a lot of monitoring coordination That dealt with the cherie stream restoration and so just seems like some of my background was able to work with work with a lot of resource oriented folks who basically used the land. Use the ocean and you know make their livelihood off about and you know you are impacting resources so we need to make sure that we're being careful around things. We can sustain gain either fish and wildlife and sustain likely at and i worked with the humble county are cd for a little bit. A temporary seasonal. You know just having fun watching construction happen. And i really enjoyed it so i'm a little biased towards the ours cd and i think he has great work. Great with all that derek with rescue stations. Perfect i was just looking back at a bunch of old pictures. I had For this episode. And i have a bunch of pictures of the piles of dirt. Recently we did have an episode with california association of resource conservation districts talking about virtual conferences. And things like that but for those who didn't hear that can you explain a little more. About what an rc. D. is because it is kinda confusing. It's not governmental but it is governmental. Ray yeah an impact me a couple of years to figure out. What are we a nonprofit. 'cause we work a nonprofit in some ways and so the are. Cd is basically estate agency. It's special district it's through. The state. oftentimes most are cds yet funding through property taxes however are cd formed in the late nineteen eighty s. And either we weren't proof. Were using the property taxes at that time or we were too late and that are or of directors and our cds are all governed by their board of directors. So six nine two from bosses that i have in their usually landowners and those border directors opted not to take any tax on hayne as well so we operate under of hooghly grant faced funding situation. Which can be challenging at times which makes us focused on very certain projects in their special districts that her all across california. If you're part of a community water distinct that's a special district. They do exist in different forms. That are cds. There are cds pretty much in every single county and every single state irresponsible. I formed as the soil conservation district during the dust bowl era and has all evolved into the resource conservation. Awesome and we're here to talk about a large project you guys have been doing for a number of years called the salt river ecosystem restoration project. Is that correct. That's right. I i always have to think about it. Can you kind of talk about the history of the salt river. And what are the sources of impacts and why. You guys are doing that project. Salt river is located in the eel river delta. It's basically the eel rivers last. Tributary before it ops on into the shan and the salt river is really more like a slew. Channel at its headwaters are in its tributaries and there's about five different tributaries that feed the saw river dot com out of the wildcat hills near ferndale that certain geologic area is merely highly orissa. And there's so much cinematic coming out of the wildcat hills that it's basically one of the highest sediment loads in all of the united states so Historically the salt river and all its tributaries would sorta me on your across the entire flood plain of the eel river delta areas with filipowicz sediment and tributaries we just kinda move around and make this really beautiful thing and as settlement started happening in the mid eighteen in that area people kinda needed that service security of knowing where are tributary was gonna go and where the salt river was gonna go so they really wanted those places to be stack. Some of them would build houses right along rivers and tributaries like everybody wants to have riverfront property. They also started What they call claiming or claiming the estuary area of the river delta that start cutting off blood a tidal prism and so previously sediment in the area used to just not flow onto the land and deposit or could be easily transported out the tributaries and the salt river out to the eel and then out into the ocean. But as you have more and more folks working up in the hills in the wildcats area that already has tremendous backgrounds of sediment lead into the tributaries people wanting to keep those combined into their channels and a lot of those channels. Go along people Property lines now. You have straight runs of channel. Though what's been happening i would say over. The last seventy years is the salt river had agreed with sediment build an and filled in and filled. and where there really wasn't a channel through a majority about seven miles of the channel out of the thirteen there and then a lot of those tributaries that feed the salt river. We're starting to go to greeted incised. A lot of these tributaries are disconnected from the salt. River sabet started flowing. Oliver people's properties as well basically the whole hydrologic system became dysfunctional and people were starting to get really really impacted. Single year. casseus a little rain. That happens every year. One to two enshrines with just fled people's houses of people's properties. There's a lot of erie's down. There has usually in the summer like this beautiful pastoral grassy grasslands and during the winter it's it's a lot of ponding and that finding can persist up to seventy eight months which caused a lot of economic abbott and roads get closed for many months as well. And there's a issues with us or emergency vehicles. And in fact the reason why they are seeing this is because the landowners in that area got together and said they needed a needed some solution for the salt river and developed the first rcd humboldt county. Hannah is called the ill. River are cd and then later on about ten years later. Warm back more formal. Humble county our cd. So when did the projects for the salt river start. When did you hit the ground running so really back a little bit. So it's that. I'm in the late. Nineteen eighties through our cd form announced. Start the salt river project minnesota. It was thirty years in the making of dubin. Studies doing studies doing studies and along a monitoring a lot of fundraising a lot of planning eventually working with the community working with agencies lot of regulatory agencies and then finally getting all the permits and the funding lined up. The salt river finally dug its first load of dirt in two thousand thirteen in fifteen we started with The lowest part of the project which was down in an estuary. So just to give you background on. What the project totally is it is. It covers seven miles of the excavating river channel. Along with associative flood plains. And that's all trying to keep the water in the river and that it doesn't jump out and go all over people's properties and then an also provides the phone or flooded properties to drain into and so there's seven miles of restored channel bus in the ashbury portion where you're getting closer to the mouth of the eel it used to be historically a An organic area and that was always really fighting hard with sort of like the the wetland features that really wanted to be there to the east of the estuary. So we've restored about three hundred acres of an adjacent to the salt as well and that kind of all kind of works together. The designers of this project were pretty amazing on what they could. They would use restoration features or the story is very very important. Part of keeping the whole system. I'm not too familiar with the estuary design. I've been out there. And i remember know. It's it's beautiful but was there any design or reinforcement put into the design to kinda hold the estuary still. Or how do you prevent that meander that would occur from sediment right. You don't want it to migrate towards people's property because all around the project area Are working dairyland or at least cattle ranching. Eric reclaimed tidal areas as well. And they're fighting just as hard with a lot of the weltman features they want to keep those in production and so in order for the project to basically function as an estuary but not impact the landowners next door. There was a two mile setback from built along the land side of the perimeter of the project area in heaps a saltwater from intruding into other people's property and then within asked Portion is there used to be a lot of levees dikes that were built to keep the salt river front flooding into the pasture lands. And so we remove a lot of those levees and dikes in that area. We removed a tide gate as well also and then recreated using a lot of the Sleep features that were already present on the land we can enhance those and belted out. Miles of slough channel have brings 'em titled waters and brackish water into that system. So yeah everything's really well contained. We don't have that migration of of tidal marsh wanna purpose weren't intending to participate. Yeah this project was an excellent example of balancing habitat and stakeholders it's I was amazed to see how well people work together and the effort that went into you know putting that emphasis on stakeholders and getting solutions on the ground. So can you speak. What are the major goals of the project. yeah The major goals is really to return object functionality back to the watershed entire saw river watershed was optional. It's part of it's delicious. 'cause we you know. This is a really big projects or not quite finished. We have about a mile laughed. And we've been working almost every year to restore a portion of the river. We start from the bottom and move our way up and so over the last seven eight years. We've been plugging away so restoring hydrologic functionality. Back to the area which means you know getting the rivers connected again giving the tributaries connected to the salt river developing that drainage once again and providing fish and wildlife habitat and primarily fish passage. Is you have the project and the salt river. The whole ill- lower eel river estuary. A lot of those estuary lands have been converted to areas. And so were used to be like this incredible salmane Reporting habitat area a lot of. That's a lawsuit so we've been seeing that every time we restore portion be the tidal estuary or even just a movie like a mile up the river every single year. Maybe we don't connect to a tributary. They're still water in the channel. We every year we find coho chinook other steelhead juvenile's in areas that the had been in for at least fifty years so it's pretty impressive. It is true when you build a official come and we've been we've been finding every single year so definitely fish and wildlife habitat. Shawn's like a total. And i like plants that i don't know as much plant habitat but certainly The salt river even didn't really exist because it was completely a great. There was some right karan corridor in that area. The right curium corridor had sort of evolved into this really homogeneous willow thicket and maybe there might have been some older so the project is trying to bring in a lot more diverse species having different Canopy layer and we're hoping that bringing also bringing in this new right korean buffer zone not only helps a lot of coho it also or and other fish of course not only. Does it help like if in that were Hoping not diverse. Plant how it will help him. Climate change because some native species will be more resilient than others. So we're hoping that a planting with more than maybe just two species of criterion A lot longer and be more healthy. Yeah that brings up the idea of redundancy and trying to bolster your bulwarks if you will and you know have those safeguards in place were you know. You don't know how things are going to go into the future and you want that redundancy to provide some offer you know the cost to date for the project it's a lot. It's a lot a lot. I mean the the studies. I can't even imagine almost thirty years of studies and permitting planning how many millions of dollars have gone into that each year. It seems like what just construction itself and the planning for that. Construction season is about real million dollars. So how many years we've done at least six years so at least eighteen million dollars is probably definitely has gone into that so it's expensive and then some of that funding has also more on the flood prevention or drainage side of things and resiliency and not has been proving to work so just to quickly get a little bit more each section of the project as it gets built. We see the system really really functioning. Well there is last ponding and flooding areas. The salt river that used to be not even present is now able to deliver a lot of water and sediment back out to the ill river so we're not having a lot of flooding out of the salt river itself whereas will use to just get flooding immediately. It's definitely we're seeing Folks who have thought they would have to get out of their agricultural business because they were bidding flooded annually and they were really tired of it after. The salt river was constructed in their area in the experienced. Drainage offered a really long time of not having any drainage they have reinvested in their agricultural operations. Emily nice to see them. Visually older folks who have a maybe adult children who are really happy to be able to give that agricultural operations assets and see us continue on our generations ice so circling back a little bit too with all that sediment moving through what has been the strategy for containing it in the salt river. This strategy is there's multiple prongs to that one is to try to control it at the source so we've been partnering with the resource conservation service which is an our cs for the acronym. They work with a lot of private landowners. Everywhere and netflix. They work with a lot of private landowners in the upper watershed of river. Where a lot of that sediment originate. So they do a road rehabilitation. They do a lot of banks ability projects with landowners. Fancying keeping cattle out of the streams in that has helped a bit with the sediment coming down though there's just backgrounds gets a lot of it and it's hard to control that and so there's always going to be side of coming down those tributaries into the salt river though we are developing these things called sediment management areas in your also called sediment basins basically an area where you kind of slow down the waters in very strategic places and those areas will fill up with sediment and then the resulting water coming out of that sentiment management area or based will become More clean and less turbine with sediment so we have these catchment areas where we know the sediment is going to be captured and we ban during maybe the summertime or something when we see that these areas are getting filled up with sediment and those are manually mechanically we're just capturing sediment in the lower watershed upon It used to function in a more controlled manner. That's where people who live in this area. We have to control. It's going on right. So catchment basins really really help with capturing lot thousands tens of thousands of cheek yards of sediment. Sometimes they philip and when year depending on how severe winters with the amount of rain. That's coming down which triggers a lot of sediment lead into the tributaries and sometimes it takes three years to fill it up we. We've built one very large one on this creek called francis and it's been dugout two times this past year it actually only build maybe a quarter of the way so we kind of were letting it sit and see what happens this year. The shears a little weather than we thought it was. We thought it was going to be more of drought era. But we've been having significant wanted to enshrine event so we keep an eye on it and see if we need to figure that out this year so okay. so that's one. Sediment management areas is one way to capture sediment and not let it go into the salt river. 'cause we try to put these sediments the sentence in tributaries before into the salt river and in another way that we manage settlement is by developing these very large flood plains adjacent to the river channel and they split planes fill up with turbine water and a lot of the water will go onto the flood. Things slow down a lot of that sentiment drops out and returns back into the river channel cleaner so those are two two ways so the planes in the sediment management and really the third way is just the design of the channel itself. There is a main active channel that carries the water through most of the year and that channel is designed in a way to a small enough to keep that velocity going and keeping transport transported settlements occurring that also big enough to where you have enough volume to transport sediment more on the design. Can you talk about what features have been included for habitat. Not only are we building a river like a river channel for fish. So i'm assuming you're talking about fish. How not so a week. Do you have these features in the channel which you see most amnesty russian projects as well is we have a lot of wood structures that are put in the channel with structures that serve two purposes a sickly fish it provides habitat provides cover 'em allies which structures will scour nice deep pools for them but the structures are also laced in strategic areas of the channels to move water around where we want them to. So say there's any somewhat structures at the entrance of lead plane and so when waters get really high as which structures push the water out onto the flood plain to flood not up Sediment raw their structures for that were fish in that one habitat component we also on some of the connections to tributaries the way those tributaries come in to be at a higher slope when they get into the salt river. So we've been developing weirs basically juncal's that allow fish to be able to us over from the salt river and up to one of the two. So there's a lot of design in those jump cools that gets there and then sometimes we have off channel habitat and they're just like small little alcoves that are doug on the side of the channel the refugee area especially with high velocities when the flow gets pretty high so they can sufficient jump jump off to the side. And just kinda hang out. And there's usually would structure in there and not provide just some rusting habitat for them as well in the asteroid portion again. There's more which structures down there but there's also a lot of that. Sorta off channel habitat. We utilized a lot of previous relationships dairy ditches and let those persists we didn't fill them and so that's a lot off channel habitat. That's pretty extensive. So those tend to get a lot of a lot of fish hanging out there especially a lot of smaller ones like tightwad obese or an endangered fish. That seems to persist in the area now. Yeah and just a letter. Recruitment and so with all the work you've done and on the sections that have been completed have you. What are the results. What are the flood impacts. Now are better drainage you know. What have you seen return. As far as fish or other species. We are seeing that. This is really draining draining. Well but a pastures aren't underwater as much on then we also we see a lot of drainers. Leads will still happen. Especially when the river gets really high but those impacts don't persist as long as they used to Like i said if they could be underwater pastures could be underwater are inaccessible or multiple months out of the air. And now we're getting off and a week if it's about athletics season or less. Actually we're not seen as much flooding in the immediate area around the salt river because they're actually the river there so that has been really hopeful as well as far as like fish and wildlife goes especially in the estuary titled worship. We've been not only doing a lot of fish monitoring but we've also been doing a lot of heard honoring and so previously. We had a lot of sort of pastoring birds and the tidal marsh area. Because it was a it was a dairyman. It has completely evolved into a lot of waterfowl and brands case down there in aleutian geese as well they like pastures. We're getting a lot of waterfowl. Shore birds down there and and it seems like we have a lot more diversity in the areas where we are starting to develop more and more ripe parent the diverse pantene calif but then of course the exciting part i think is the fish as we are getting so many coho coming up last year where we left off construction. We left off in with a large pool. And that pool contained three hundred fifteen cocoa juvenile's. Yeah that's really exciting to hear what have been some of the lessons learned. Oftentimes they feel like i'm working with landowners are the key components of this whole situation. I mean they. They are the ones who are allowing us project to happen on their properties. Sometimes these landowners are more elderly so they have Representatives represent them in the family and then of course the patriarch to make your are the ones who have the last day and so really trying to keep them in. The conversation i feel is really really needed for sure and to keep them up to speed about what's feasible not feasible also another big Into my another lesson. Learned is the expectations about for everybody. Not just for for us as the are cd but even for regulators expectations to be able to control invasive species is. I don't know how you can really do it to worry. You're getting them or not allowing them to come back said with the fish for the sacramento. No throughout the entire eel river estuary in will river. There is a point where we thought we could eradicate them from the salt river system. And it's just it's just not gonna happen. It's just you know we do it. We can we eat the nice on the ones that we come across during for surveys are known how you can get rid of them there. It's a really really heartbreaking thing and and you're just sitting your head against the wall. I think when restoration projects promised something like fat. It's it's really. I wouldn't say you're you're saying that through your teeth but it really assists not going to happen and for regulators to require that as well as unrealistic but it is heartbreaking to see some of these invasive species come in in just not having the means or the funding every single day every single year. Yeah i think. That's where adaptive management and long term maintenance have to come into play. There's really no other way. It is. Yeah and i am. What's so hard about adaptive management. I mean you can perform at the so much of it is really you need money to do. It and a lot of funding agencies are funding programs on build something the necessarily fund maintaining and. I'm hoping that day. So many areas of at least northern california will be restored and then eventually these funding programs are going to want to maintain them in the long run. Yeah definitely Having ended after management plan it gives you the framework of how to maintain that project that. Sometimes you do need that being becca. Yeah well i mean i. I hate to leave this conversation on such a sad note. Rose i'm gonna ask you one last one in that is what is your favorite plant. Oh my favorite plant. Does it have to be on the project site. No whatever you want anything. I usually plants that. Provide some sort of Reward like a free three. So i quite lie that i do battle with injury. I like that. It's especially good for avian species feel like yeah and the reckons in the sense that only fix before you even get to. I like my victory all right. Well thanks for doing this. It's been a pleasure sean. For raking out How could i talk about it. And it is a a release special project and there are definitely republic access areas. There's a number of bridges that the solver goes under so encourage anybody who's in the her area to take a peek off. Some of the brinson. See what it looks like and you guys have a website right. Yes it's it's humbled are. Cd dot org. I hope everybody stays safe healthy and happy out there and thanks for having me sean. Thanks for reaching out. Thank you the music on this. Podcast was quiet fury by the music teller you can find him at the music teller dot com the best way to support our podcast is a like minded friend or colleague. Human interaction is important. You can also visit our web page at resonant restoration dot com and sign up for our newsletter and find links to our patriot on page. You can also find us on social media such as instagram facebook and twitter so stay tuned for resonant restoration and thank you for listening.

salt river humboldt county resource conse california eel river delta wildcat hills humble county amir moderator Crear California salt river doreen hanson michael simone garin ferndale cardini california humboldt county resource conse california association of reso River sabet Humble county riverina
November 9, 2018: Hour 2

Here & Now

42:45 min | 2 years ago

November 9, 2018: Hour 2

"This message comes from here. And now sponsor indeed if you're hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes, set up screener questions then zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard, get started at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast from NPR and WB. You are I'm Jeremy Hobson, Robin young. It's here now three major wildfires burning in California fueled by Santa Ana winds are forcing tens of thousands to evacuate. There are two in southern California surrounding Thousand Oaks, which is still reeling from this week's mass shooting. The Wolsey fire jumped the one on one freeway in a number of places this morning. It started south of seamy valley and is burning in Los Angeles, and in Torah counties. The hill fire has forced the entire communities of oak park and Westlake village to evacuate and in northern California. The campfire has completely burned the town of paradise north of Sacramento residents quickly realizing yesterday they had to get out. Brin Chatfield shot. What's become a new genre of viral video driving through fire and smoke that turned day into night? Us. As you see the fire burning around, then we'll have that at here now dot org as David Romero is a reporter at capital public radio in Sacramento as a people are posting other videos talking about their cars catching on fire as they raced out describe what happened. Yeah. The fire started about six thirty in the morning yesterday. And it, you know, this is an area of oak woodland that's mixed conifers and a lot of dry grass. So a fire that that ignites an air like this can just start burning really fast and grow really large. And that's what happened the fire started six thirty. And then in a couple hours, it was five thousand acres and just kept growing and growing and growing plus all the wind speeds between Wednesday between thirty four and fifty miles an hour, and that that wind event just kept going on and spread this fire and within twenty four hours this morning. You know, what grew to seventy thousand acres, and of course, we remember the horrific car fire not too far away. And so these people once they realize. I mean, we we're hearing stories of people running down highways abandoning their cars did did. I mean, do we know of any casualties at this point? There's a cow. Oh, yes. Meeting this morning. And they said there have been injuries and some fatalities. But they are not. They're not releasing any information yet people were leaving their cars, and then fire crews are having to move cars out of the way to get fire trucks into places like paradise and a reporter, we have there this morning in the place called paradise said, you know, one thing that's only standing is Taco Bell. And that's sort of the scene. You have. It's like everything is destroyed and Cal fire reports about eighty percent of the town is gone gone. Meanwhile, in evacuation warning was issued last night for parts of the city of Chico. So what's the latest there? Yes. So far Cal fire says they've done burn operations on the where the fire is approaching Chico. So they light fire and and create this barrier right between the city and the fire. They say the fires moving north and right now, there's. The there was a red flag warning for this area that's gone away. But the conditions are still so dry and severe here that will touch low humidity in the air that even without that red flag warning sparks could still fly, and you know, embers could push this fire on and remind us red flag. What does that telling residents a red flag warning is where there's high winds. There's low humidity in the air. It just basically it's saying all the conditions are right that if a fire sparks, it can grow really big and really bad. And meanwhile to other serious fires burning in the southern part of the state nerves must be on edge. Yeah. You know, it were were a November November ninth, right? We've had not much rain in October. And there's not much forecast in in the coming days as well. So I think the whole state is really on alert, and this is sort of been the story year after year now in California as real David Romero reported capital public capital public radio in Sacramento. Oh, California, and Ezra. Just one. Last thought we talked about people waking up to this fire and in paradise and fleeing do they feel they got enough in a few things we have did they were they told to evacuate from what I hear. No. But they say, you know, this because it happened so fast that fire grew so fast. They there just wasn't time to alert everyone in that timely man manner. Boy as your thank you. Thank you will there are still a handful of midterm races. That are undecided in Arizona. The democratic candidate for Senate. Kristen cinema has taken a narrow lead over Republican Martha mcsally with still hundreds of thousands of ballots uncounted in Georgia's governor's race the campaign for democrat. Stacey Abrams is promising to sue. If all votes aren't counted Republican Brian Kemp says he won a clear victory. And in Florida, Republican Rick Scott leads by just fifteen thousand votes. He's trying to unseat democratic Senator Bill Nelson in the governor's race Republican Ron to Santa's leads democrat. Andrew gillum by more than thirty thousand votes. Steve Contorno is national political correspondent for the Tampa Bay times. He's in Saint Petersburg, Florida. Hi, steve. Hi, how are you doing? Well. So let's start with the Senate race today. Democratic Senator Bill Nelson campaign announced a lawsuit against the Florida secretary of state what happened. Yeah. It appears that they have already laying the groundwork to recent issues about how the ballot approval process works specifically requirements that signatures must match those on file with the state, and they make the case that this disproportionately disenfranchises otherwise legitimate ballots, and it leads to throwing away people who voted accurately and fairly. And when you say signatures, you're talking about mail in ballots people who mailed them in and then they had to sign and there's somebody actually checking to see if their signature matches up with with with their signature, correct? It's Mellon ballots and also provisional ballots if you don't show up with an ID, or if you show up at the wrong polling place, you can file a provisional ballot. You sign an affidavit and the check that against the the what you're assuming on file with the department of motor vehicles. Meanwhile, yesterday, the Republican candidate governor Rick Scott announced a lawsuit again. Broward and Palm Beach counties as he has been watching his lead, get slimmer. What is he saying? He's raising a lot of issues about the transparency and those two offices. He is concerned about the fact that they are still counting votes at this time, while all are all other counties have finished the majority of election day and pre election votes. I'm not sure what the end result of this litigation can be because this process is supposed to wrap up by by Saturday. And if this was more of an attempt to raise red flags, and you know, create a lot of more uncertainty about the outcome of what's coming out of those particular counties. Why is there so much trouble? In some of these counties in counting the votes. Why can't they count the votes as quickly? For example, in Broward County is they have in the other counties of the state. That's a great question. It's one that we've wondered a time and time again in elections in Florida, Broward County seems to actually have issues. It is. It is a very large county, and it's one of the most populous counties in the state, and you know, administering election in that of that size is difficult, and you know, they technically have until Saturday to get their results in. So they're saying, you know, we are just doing our due diligence to take this time. That's a lot of to us to to finish. So if things stay about where they are right now both the Senate race and the governor's race would require a recount correct is sort of unprecedented. We haven't had a statewide recount heels races. And it's going to require a lot of manpower. And a lot of hours to get that done, and we won't have an outcome for several weeks. And at least the Senate race would require actually a manual recount, not just machinery count. Yeah. And that's critical because there is an issue in the Senate race that is not present in the governor's race. And that is in Broward County there are about thirty thousand under votes in the Senate. Race. And what I mean by that is that about thirty thousand ballots did not vote in the Senate race, which is the top race on the ballot. And that phenomenon was only present in that part of the state. So is the lawyers for Nelson believe that this is a result of a machine air or markings on the ballot. That may have messed up the counts. And if this goes to recount, they believe that those thirty thousand votes will be remedied and they will fall heavily and Bill Nelson's favor because this is an overwhelmingly democratic county and what about in the governor's race. Also appears to be headed toward a recount Rhonda Santa's the Republican has seen his lead shrinking over Andrew gillum. Is it possible that that race is going to change in terms of the outcome? I think you're going to see the results continue to narrow because a lot of counties. Just now finishing counting provisional ballots and provisional ballots overwhelmingly trend toward Democrats. However, it's a much larger gap for him to overcome. There is not the under vote issue in the governor's race that his presence in the Senate race. It does not seem to have the same path to a flip as we've seen in the Senate race as well as the another state wide race. They agriculture Commissioner race which already has flipped toward the democrat. Everybody as they watched. This is thinking about two thousand and the presidential election in two thousand and the recount and the hanging chads and all that stuff is that part of the conversation there in Florida, or do you just look at this and say, well, we really live in a divided state. I don't think election goes by where people aren't thinking about two thousand in Florida anymore. It seems that there's always something that happens that goes, oh, no not again. And usually it's I rolling and or or it's just you know over precaution. But this year, we're actually seeing it, and that is obviously the most notorious recounted in probably US history. And yet this recount that we're headed toward is even more unprecedented because there are going to be three statewide recounts as well as three recounts in legislative races as well. So two thousand obviously drew a lot of national attention, and it will go down in infamy. But this one is going to be no where the in its own right for a long time. I will take it a step further than you and say that is definitely the most notorious recount in American history. Steve Contorno national political correspondent for the Tampa Bay times. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I can still see that guy looking through the ballot. You know with his magnify. Buying glass to see if the head was hanging or not. Time now to see how the news filtered through social media this week and what a week and election mass shooting wildfires. Let's bring infamy, okay, host to the stream on Al Jazeera English high femi-, and we know social media is lit up with thoughts about the shooting the mass shooting in Thousand Oaks twenty year old Matt winter strong lived and here he is speaking with reporters on the night of the shooting. We hid behind a pool table until we heard a break and the shots. And at that point we jumped up, and I watched one of my friends throw a barstool through the window, and then I voted suit and a couple of other people were able to break the glass down. And then we just everyone piled piled piled right out the window, and he'd before that he said, we got everyone behind that pool table and down. And then there was probably six or seven of us guys dog piling over the girls that Wang each other them from getting hit by bullets yet. What are people saying? Well. Matt story got out then because of the various news reporting and interviews that were being done and people didn't actually know who he will say before he people knew his name. They were saying this guy is amazing. He's giving us a way to what should we do in an emergency situation and the screen grabs of him. He's got a great shot on and that's blood on his show his blood off the people's blood James Shaw Junius sums it up on Twitter as weight as they sound says, James and Charles Malino. Thank you, Matt. When a strum for what you did keeping you hate straight and saving lice and run Hellas fior ultimate sacrifice paying field family. He uses this hashtag, not o'hara's heroes. Wear. Capes run Hellas was the Ventura County show Sajjan was killed in that shooting. And then a number of all the people are saying we should make Matt winter strums Ninko viral a note the name of the shooter and then just in pushback on Facebook because this compensation always Boland's out Romanneh's Yuna whenever. Oh, we have mass shootings in the US. People start asking about gun control on Facebook. Hey, diva says hate me all you want. But this is a good reason to be licensed to carry. And then of course, we get into the normal gun control conversation, which I'm not going to get into today. Well, but I think it's well, I know it's playing out. But I think it's so interesting to people are saying share winter storms name and not the shooter's name. We are not using the shooter's name to give in infamy. They're also saying share Telemakos refunding his name. He was the young man who survived the Las Vegas shooting, but was killed in the the country music bar. His parents have both spoken out and talked about gun control. So this is all in the mix there and very powerful. Then there's Ruth Bader Ginsburg yesterday, the eighty as say, very very powerful been little less. So after she fell in apparently was hospitalized. Breaking some ribs. NPR's Nina totenberg is heard from the supreme court that jus-. Ginsburg is out of the hospital working from home today. But before that what were people doing online? So thank you for the health update by Nina. I'm checking up on the mental health of Justice, Kim, bug fans on Twitter, and they had a number of creative suggestions from stopping her hunting herself again page on Twitter says I will fall into him my fat, which will keep from the the breakage. That's quite an ugly picture, thanks page for that clock. Oliva a suggesting I'm disconnected tweet a tweet is just a little bit. So it suitable for broadcasting while he's roof beta Ginsburg, not being toted around on Shays by twelve muscle-bound men like the Queen of Sheba. I think why not indeed Stephen Colbert said she should be wrapped in plastic like of and carry like Faberge egg. But others there's the hashtag ribs for Rb Chee. Yes. And so those suggestions of people saying, I will actually gave my rib to help out. I old if this it it sort of panic slash anxiety attack slash Huma. But I also onto all be J full, and that's all going around online. And there's the most serious compensation. Underlying the jokes and Ken Webster junior says is it time for the notorious I'll g to step down and David Russell says one more thing, which I think is really important here. He says I'll be is eighty five years old. She should be. Able to fool them break bone without an entire democracy. Breaking. Resold. As people worry that she's holding a seat that's moderate to left leaning, and in this administration behind everything means in order. I just have to mention Wisconsin. Governor Scott Walker who was narrowly ousted by the democrat. Tony ears on Tuesdays beginning a lot of attention because it was his law that he signed in two thousand sixteen that's preventing him from asking for a recount. And that of course is all over social media as well. Lots of Kama memes. And I think Scott will be reading some of them. He tweeted out earlier on today be strong and courageous don't be afraid or scared of them. He's definitely leading Twitty here for the Lord joke. God himself is he who goes with you? He will not fell you steetch nominee thirty one six. So I think he has Stephanie be leading the tweets that are making fun of his signing the law, which means that now he can't go for recount, then the okay, host of the stream on Al Jazeera English. Thank you. You'll say welcome was the mid term results came in. So did the jokes. Stephen colbert. Seth meyers. Jimmy kimmel. Trevor no all hosted their shows live on Tuesday night. NPR? Tv critic Eric Diggins joins us now to talk about the midterms on late night TV higher high. So back in two thousand sixteen hosts like Stephen Colbert reacted to Trump's victory live. But this was a very different. What was the atmosphere like on late night TV this time around? Well, you know, it was interesting was I felt the live shows on two thousand sixteen we're a little more interesting because it was such a shock this time around the full impact of all the races wasn't really known. And so they didn't really have anything to react to what we didn't know what they did know at that time was stuff that their audience would like that the Democrats were likely to take control of the house, for example. So what we were left with were the kinds of jokes that they probably would have told even if they had pre taped the show. And so we've got a clip of Stephen Kobe telling a joke about Ted Cruz. And if you if you listen to that, you can get a sense of what I'm talking about. Then again, why wouldn't Ted Cruz win in Texas because of the end of the day real Cowboys only love three things barbecue rodeo and Canadians who went to Princeton and Harvard so once again ten Cruz defeats or Rourke, although although by not being Ted Cruz Bego still a winner. So you could imagine a couple of words tweaked in that bit. And he could've told that joke even not knowing who had won that race in. So Colbert in particular announced a lot of results during his show. But I sort of felt like if you were interested in those results, you would have been watching cable television. And you know, when I watch Jimmy Kimmel, for example, he was live. I felt like much of that show could have been taped in advance. And I never would have known. There were a lot of parallels between the different shows some satirized newscasters graphics, others used alcohol as a prompt what stood out to you. Well, okay. Even though I dating Jimmy came alive a little bit. I he did what I thought was one of the coolest things where he got sash bearing Cohen to pretend to be one of his legendary characters borat and go around and talk to people and try to draw out some of their most ridiculous ideas about politics, and in fact. We've got a clip of that. Let's let's check it out. Here is announced the fake news. People will say that the Donald Trump is a bad to immigrant children. We him that he came to the Mexican children the cages instill. I came over here. They had to be somewhere cage them. So he got some average person just went up to her house and engaged her in conversation and got her to react that way. And so that was a great bit. But and that was something that was filmed in advance, and and could have been done without this show being live. But that was an that was an awesome bit and fell. I think it just the right moment Eric during his show on election eve. Okay. So the midterms are over and now I wanna talk to you about something else that you told me at the end, so Eric, and I after we do our conversations we like to chat a little bit about other shows Eric's watching because every time he has put me onto something. It is always really good and you told me to watch bodyguard on net flicks. And I did and I wanna play a little clip of of this. This is a British drama that was on the BBC. But it just arrived on Netflix last month. It's about a cop tasked with protecting the home secretary in the UK opens with an intense twenty minutes. We see war veteran. David, bud. Played by Richard Madden. Who you probably know from game of thrones. Trying to talk down a suicide bomber on a train with his kids in the next car here Lennon's, David David book. Shoes. The money that was in here before so your husband. And you husband wants you to today. You don't have to be lost. We can be this device Eric this has the suspense of like twenty four some of these other shows, it's really well done. Yeah. You know, we have this character who sort of the flawed hero where the viewer can see all of his virtues, but the rest of the characters can mostly see his flaws. So this is someone who's suffering from PTSD. So his marriage is falling apart. He manages to react courageously when he's in emergency situation. So he resolves this incident with the bomber. But a lot of things happen to the character to make everyone else doubt him. And so the whole arc of the story line is about our his instincts. Right. Is he on the Mark is he paranoid has. He been distracted by his PTSD and the show is six episodes. And the story I think fills those episodes pretty well. And it was a phenomenon in Britain. It was kind of water cooler show that we really see on television anymore. I kind of like. The idea of six episodes shows, it's not that big of a commitment. And if it's bad you haven't wasted that much time. Well, British TV used to be like that. And I I don't know if there's a deal to do another season the bodyguard, certainly it's so successful. I would be surprised if they did. But there would be some value. And just saying, you know, what we told the story we needed to tell we can just let that sit and let that be an excellent series of television. I hope they do that and PR TV critic Eric Dagens. Thank you, always a pleasure checkout. Bodyguard, you will like it. This message comes from NPR's sponsor, indeed when it comes to hiring. You don't have time to waste you need help getting to your shortlist qualified candidates fast with indeed posted job in minutes. Set up screener questions then zero in on qualified candidates. And when you need to hire fast, accelerate your results with sponsored jobs. New users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com slash NPR, podcast, terms, conditions, and quality standards of flowing. The markets have been jittery today. After oil prices took a dive yesterday to benchmarks are now around twenty percent lower than they were a month ago. Michael Regan is senior editor at Bloomberg news. He joins us from New York. Hi, mike. Hi, jeremy. So what is happening with oil prices. Well, Jeremy getting the supply and demand balance in the wheel market is notoriously difficult. Just at the beginning of last month will was at a four year high above seventy six dollars a barrel and a big reason for that was a couple of things for one things are a mess in Venezuela, which is a big producer. But more importantly, President Trump had ripped up the Iran deal that was reached under the Obama administration. And he was preparing new sanctions that would cut out cut off Iranian crude from global markets. So that sort of spurred the the prices to go up to that for your high. But at the same time other producers like Saudi Arabia started. Producing more oil to make up for that loss supply. And then the US ended up exempting some big buyers like India and China and South Korea from the actual Iranian sanctions. So it sort of wreaked havoc on the whole supply demand balance. And that's why we're looking at these huge losses. Now, it's still a twenty percent drop in about a month is pretty significant. It is. Yeah. I would point out though, the oil's a lot more volatile than say the stock market a big drops. Like this are more frequent than say a twenty percent drop in stocks and then big rebounds as well. What does this mean for the American oil industry? Well, you know, the American oil industry is if you step back a few years, it's been booming. We've had these record low interest rates after the recession, and that created this massive investment in oil drilling in the US and at the same time, we had this new technology fracking in horizontal drilling. And that was brought online at the same time allow drillers to access crude. That was more or less off limits before so that's a big part of the reason why prices came down aggressively say in two thousand fifteen two thousand sixteen remember wheels trading in the twenty something a barrel thousand sixteen and then the balance sort of corrected itself and crept back up. So, you know, I it's this supply demand balance that is sort of always implying in the market. I always noticed that when oil prices, go up gas prices followed very quickly when oil prices go down it takes a while for the gas prices to come down. That's right. That's right. Obviously, you know, it takes while. Because of these sudden drops like this. You know, the gasoline spires might be slow to adjust. They're not gonna want to give up those profits right away. So you say that, you know, this thing these things happen. The oil market is volatile. But when you look back at the historic chart of oil prices, you look at one of the biggest drops was right before the great recession. Should we be worried about the? That this could lead to other problems. Well, yeah. Since the US has become such a big producer voile. It's not an unequivocal bowl. Good thing when it drops because there's a lot of jobs a lot of investments tied to will in the country now, and you're right looking back at three session. The oil market went bonkers. It crashed about thirty five percent from before the recession from two thousand six to early two thousand seven then in the middle of the recession. It actually shot up to one hundred and forty five dollars a barrel in the middle of two thousand and eight and that's because everyone was bailing out of Bank stocks and other other equities and getting into oil instead and then by the end of two thousand and eight is back in the thirties. So it it really did sort of add to the issues weighing on the economy during the recession. They didn't have bitcoin to flee to Mike Regan. Thank you. Thank you. Jim. There is a widespread view that fundamentalists faiths branches that follow. The letter of the religious law are incompatible with LGBTQ, lesbian, gay bisexual transgender or questioning lives, and that's largely true last week. Israel's parliament rejected a Bill that would allow gay couples access to surrogacy to start families ultra orthodox members of the governing coalition wouldn't allow it a few months earlier and ultra-orthodox Jewish member of Israel's parliament was forced to resign after revealing he attended his nephew same sex wedding. Of course, Jewish orthodoxy isn't the only fundamentalist group that rejects homosexuality, but we're focusing on it today because we're talking to an outlier ultra orthodox rabbi, Mike Moskowitz who has come out not as gay, but as an LGBTQ ally, which cost him jobs friends and brought them a lot of hate mail, but rabbi Moskowitz, you've also said, you think this is what a holy decision, absolutely. Absolutely. I think we're all put in this world for a specific purpose? And for me, I've found clarity in the invitation to kind of expand the space that religion. I think is meant to provide as a container to help support relationships with God. And there's just a huge segment of society that is being told there's no room for you here. And as a fundamentalist, I believe that God is everywhere all the time. And so we need some restorative religion to heal for some of the trauma that has been mended out by those who want to constrict the space that got occupies. You just said something that I had never thought of in that way religion as a container to support a relationship with God. So you're saying that if religion prohibits a part of the person to be in that container. They're they're not really having that relationship with God. I think that God is in some sort of prefabricated mass produced space. Face and each person needs to ask themselves. What does God want for me being who I am in this relationship? Look, we wanna rush to say that we're talking about Judas, and we just happen to be because you are Jewish. But all of Judaism doesn't reject homosexuality. The reform movement actually embraces the LGBTQ movement conservative. Today's also allows for same sex. Marriages some modern orthodox communities are also taking some small steps in that direction, but you are ultra orthodox first of all what does that mean to you? I find it helpful to bar language from the queer community about my own religious identity because I think there's a huge parallel there. So I was assigned secular. And then kind of came out as worth oxen high school went on a raid wing trajectory for the next twenty years learning in the largest seminaries in the world's and really living in that very far right wing Lithuanian achieve a world and now identify as religiously non conform. Warming. I have very progressive values, which are very much a part of who. I am. I also am deeply religious. We all have to express ourselves with some sort of dominant physical form. And so for me living in an ultraorthodox community dressing the way in which rabbis in my community. Dress is helpful in that it expresses to the world who I am at my core. And if we force somebody to choose between, a gender identity in a religious identity, sexual identity and a religious identity. There's only one out of those three which is a choice, and so people leave religion because they're told that there's no space for them to be who they are. You say people don't choose to be either gay or lesbian or trans. Look. I said that you said that this new understanding you have you feel as a holy understanding. And I I understand it came to you with with a personal experience. That's correct actually two different personal experiences. That really led me. In this quest to try to uncover and discover the divine will I someone in my family transitions and said, I'm not a girl, I'm a boy and that led me as a rabbi at Columbia University to explore gender studies for the first time. And then when one of my students was really struggling as a trends individual. I felt a calling through the come out very publicly as an ally. Because the rabbinic voice, I don't think has been loud enough in creating a safe space that a sanctuary should be a sacred space a sanctuary from persecution. And unfortunately, religion, though, often excludes people you synagogue in Harlem became the first trans friendly traditional synagogue, but you were still kind of quiet about your support of the community, and then gave a speech at Hanukkah at the old, Broadway synagogue, and that you call that you're coming out speech becoming public about being an ally for me. It felt so reminiscent of the feeling I had when I was seventeen twenty years earlier thinking about whether or not I was willing to kind of take on the precarity of acknowledging a truth that I felt in my core be absolute and objective, but was going to have consequences. You mean what about becoming about becoming too orthodox accepting? Yeah. And it was a similar struggle at thirty seven to come out again in that police of embarking on a journey to discover and uncovered the divine will a space that was very new for me. I think faith is a call to action. And when we're willing to do something in partnership with God for the greater good, and there's risks involved. I think that there's a way in which we manifest the divine will in the world of action. Well, but not everyone agrees in that moment. And you you lost your job, you have taken up other advocacy work. But do you feel a little bit in the wilderness? It's lonely and isolating in that the space isn't occupied with other people with my backgrounds, and I think that's the way it is when it comes to progress. But we also have some old truths that we can ground ourselves in which are that God loves us more than we love ourselves. And God doesn't put extra people in this. Worlds and God so desperately yearns and longs to be in relationship with each one of us. And unfortunately, the suicide rate among the trans community for those who are not validated. Affirmed it's over forty percent. And so whether we understand the meta question of where gender lies is almost a relevant because we do understand the practical obligation to create a safe space for folks. Well, you being in the wilderness and feeling outside of has. I'm sure given you even more empathy than you already had for this community. And they need it early. This year, we interviewed hobby-wise burger who spent years fighting for her kids, she came out as a lesbian. They were taken away. She lost her entire extended family. I'm sure you hear stories like that every day and as a straight SIS Mel for me on a bad day is still much more privileged than most trends, folks. On a good day. There's a lot of work to be done. And if we want to create a space. Where everybody is welcome. Then we can't marginalize were exclude anybody, do you think things might shift. I mean, there was a statement released in two thousand ten by a faculty member at the liberal orthodox school saying that it couldn't sanction homosexuality. But should welcome gay people as full members of the community. Do you see this shifting even further at the intersection of tradition and innovation? There is a lot of tension. If you change the rules too much it's game. But if you don't adapt the one's gonna show up to play. And I think the far-right part of orthodoxy has drawn some lines with sharpies, very permanent lines. But the problem is that the no longer fits the topography of the universe and has rabbis were taught not to answer questions, but to answer people. And so the needs of people today are just different. So we don't need to try to change the tradition, but we need to recognize that his application to people needs to look different because people have different. What do you say to the people who? To them. It's desecration. That's the same in fundamentalist Christianity. There's sure is a strong belief that it is against God's will. It's an abomination. Sure, so nobody can ever own the relationship of another with God. And I think that we need to have much more Tommy given to the individual to own and take responsibility for relationships with God when we have rabbis getting in a person's relationship with God, it gets crowded if a person is genuinely and sincerely on a quest to discover the divide intention that struggle for truth is this holy as it gets. But I mean, it's also occurring to me as I speak with you that you had your transcendent moments who meeting transgendered people the words were so much like we find transitions deep within our tradition from home even to the mundane from the Danes at the night. And sometimes it's a contradiction to the physical because that plane of spirituality might look. Different than what we see with a physical is that if we have gendered aspects of God, and our liturgy, our father, our king and feminine aspects and guide doesn't have a body. So then where might gender lie. And what might that? Tell us about those who are able to kind of sense things perhaps on a soul level that is ultra orthodox. Rabbi, Mike Moskowitz, one of only a handful of ultra orthodox Jewish clergy advocating for the LGBTQ community as a straight man rabbi Moskowitz. Thank you so much for speaking with us for having me. A lot of women won elections on Tuesday, mostly democratic women, but also Republicans like Marsha Blackburn who won a Senate seat in Tennessee. Chaz Sisk is senior editor for W P L N in Nashville Chaz you followed Blackburn's career for some time as she always had her eyes on the Senate. Well, yeah, it's kinda hard to say whether she's had her eyes on the Senate precisely, but she's definitely always been a very ambitious politician. This goes back to when she first got elected to the state legislature in the nineteen nineties. She seemed to be immediately position herself for run at congress or something like that. In two thousand fourteen she was putting out feelers in New Hampshire as maybe a dark horse candidate for president before really who the field was going to be taken shape. And it was always there was some talk in twenty sixteen for maybe being Trump's running mates went before Mike Pence was chosen so she's definitely always been very ambitious in terms of her aspirations, and there was a big question about whether she would be able to actually win this race. She was going up against a very popular former governor democrat Phil Bredesen's, but she ended up beating him by ten points. What do you think made that happen? Well, you have to remember that Tennessee leans, very heavily Republican. And so there's a very high built in advantage for the Republican nominee. She won by nationalizing this election and really being very unrelenting in her attacks on on Phil Brad is in the democratic nominee. So that strategy paid off for her in the end, she's been in the house of representatives since two thousand and three what kind of legislation has she sponsored or supported in that time, you know, she's not really known so much as being a sponsor of legislation as being a spokeswoman for Republican positions of. A lot of your listeners may be familiar with her through her parents until Sunday morning talk shows on cable news over the years. And to the extent that she her ledge set of record is known in Tennessee. It's they've often been things that don't help her with the voters. She was opposed to the FCC's net neutrality rules. She's also been attacked during the campaign about sponsoring some opioid legislation that law enforcement said made it harder for them to crack down over prescribers. But what she does have as a talent for spotting positions that are going to resonate with conservative voters and just really being a great spokeswoman for those issues. And as an example of that we were in Tennessee doing the show from Nashville a couple years ago in two thousand sixteen in the early part of the presidential campaign back in February of sixteen when President Trump was not the nominee of the party yet. Nobody knew what was going to happen with that. And I remember being at an event with Marsha Blackburn. A straw poll in Williamson county near Nashville, it was not clear if Trump was going to be the nominee, but I asked Blackburn if she would be okay with any of the. Seventeen Republican candidates being the nominee. And here's what she said, you better believe that I'm going to be working full. Steam ahead for whomever is the nominee. The goal is to be the Democrats and to take control of the White House. Even if it's Donald Trump, you'll work full. Steam ahead for him, absolutely, whomever is our nominee. I'm going to be with them all the way through election day and making certain that we are victorious, and we have a Republican in the White House. So it's interesting to hear her say that at that point. Because at that time a lot of Republicans were sort of staying away from Donald Trump. Yeah. That that's a very good example of of sort of how Marsha Blackburn works. I mean, she understood very early in two thousand sixteen maybe not out in. I'm not in that first group if Republicans, but certainly in the second group of Republicans in congress that Donald Trump is really resonating with a lot of voters in places like Tennessee, it really shows her talent for sort of spotting where the Republicans have and where conservative voters are going. What about the fact that she's going to be the first woman to represent Tennessee in the US Senate? Did she talk about that as part? Her campaign, not very much really the only time, I can really think of it. Coming up in the campaign was wind. There was some speculation that her high negatives. We're going to keep her from winning the general election and people were urging Bob corker to run for reelection reverse his decision to retire a spokeswoman for Blackburn referred to him as to people who were advocated for corker to return to the racist sexist. Pigs one thing about Blackburn is that she's always insisted on being called congressman in an office. It's something that strikes a lot of people even in Tennessee is an acronym. Mystic. But she quipped on election night that people who were against that who are bothered by that now they can just call her Senator from now on. Right. Exactly. So you know, that's really her only nod to the glass ceiling and break in the glass ceiling in this election. What about issues, let's listen to a little bit of what Marsha Blackburn said about the issues that resonated most with Tennessee voters, constitutional judges, people are pleased to capitalize on the bench. We hear a lot about tax cuts because the economy is spending in Tennessee tax cuts are working and people. Remember, I led the battle against the state income tax. She's also talked about her support for a wall along the border with Mexico. Is there a signature issue that you identify her with well that reference to taxes is to some extent yet. But the fact is that she really portrayed herself throughout this campaign. And I think she has seen in Tennessee as a reliable vote for the Republican agenda nationwide. So no real signature issue. But I think certainly people feel very confident she's going to vote on the Republican agenda at the way, they want them to you think that she has asked. Nations beyond the Senate. The old saw that every congressman looks in the mirror and sees as Senator and every Senator looks in the mirror and sees a president. I think that she's a very ambitious politician. I wouldn't be surprised if she ran for something like that. But on the other hand, she is sixty six years old. She's getting towards the tail end of her political career. So there's there's not much of a window there sixty six it's common to be eighty five or more in the Senate these days, that's certainly true. But you know, it's it's a tough game running for president. And it's really up to her whether she wants to do that or not. But it certainly she's flying very high in Tennessee right now. That's Chaz Sisk senior editor for WPN in Nashville. Thank you. My pleasure. Here. Now's the production of NPR WB are an association with the BBC World Service. I'm Jeremy Hobson. I'm Robin young. It's here now.

Senate Donald Trump Tennessee US Marsha Blackburn NPR Jeremy Hobson Thousand Oaks Florida Senator Bill Nelson president Stephen Colbert California Rick Scott Jimmy kimmel NPR WB Andrew gillum senior editor
119. THE REASONS TO BE CHEERFUL 2019 CHART SHOW

Reasons to be Cheerful

52:38 min | 1 year ago

119. THE REASONS TO BE CHEERFUL 2019 CHART SHOW

"Seasons with Jeff flock readings pickers. It's Tony I welcome you to the reasons to cheerful top ten ideas of the year. What's going up? What's going down and moving esteem hosts? It's Ed I'm really bad at Jeff Lloyd take it away he knew you nearly here. We are December the thirtieth flash early January probably. Maybe we give away the fact that every podcast you listen to the radio radio show you listen to every TV show you watch. They did it so far in advance. That you Kinda lose track of you on New Year's Eve on Radio Five Live. This is if if you before. Ten o'clock or one am on New Year's Day. You can head Jeff Lloyd on five lines. Yeah it's my hootenanny Sasha's so here we are as ever as is the region. It'll be cheerful tradition. We are counting down the top ten days of the year hearing from them again and also looking at what has happened to those ideas since we originally talked about them and number ten is back to you enter their new entries or I play along here for is to the future representing the coming generations. Now you may remember that. We spoke to Sophie. How who was the world's first I Future Generations Commissioner in Wales Than Laurie Labone Lengthen Andrea westall since we did this episode founder the big issue Lord? John John Byrd introduced a private member's bill in the House of Lords in October calling for UK Wide Future Generations Act and his sophie took it about her role. Tell us first of all what your job involve. What what what what it means? An unwanted involves CEO. My job was crates. H through a law that that was passed in the Welsh's Abby Colby Future Generations Act and my job description as set out in lower is to act in the interests of future generations should so that's a pretty cool job description. I'm I think my job is to make sure that government and all of our public institutions so count souls Health Bolton Tim sale on Are Applying Lorna taken interest of future generations into account. I am I right in thinking that before your post to set up there was it kind of of dialogue between generations. Is that right. Yes so we held a national conversation in Wales which engaged with over ten thousand. I was in people about the whales. We want and a whole range of different generations so young people from the scouts and the and the eldest which is a Welsh language on wage at Youth Movement to the Women's Institute and Young Farmers. And so on all how this national conversation trying to envisage what would we want Wales else to look like in the future. And what Sorta Wales do we want to leave behind to our children. Our grandchildren and made developed a compensation developed a set of national wellbeing. Goals switch also took accountable the UN sustainable development goals the same time. And I suppose it was really interesting for listening what practical impact your role has had and and there are. There are some notable areas of policy where you've intervened and it has had a real impact. Isn't that right. He Act so one of the best examples. Campos was that. That'd be the proposal on the books if you like. The Welsh government for about the last decade to deal with a big problem with congestion on our main motorway away them for around Newport by building a relief wrote and this was interesting for a number of reasons one because it was the first time the whales had got borrowing powers this and they were proposing to us. All of the Bar empowers on building this road so that's kind of interesting from a future generations perspective because not only is it potentially actually questionable whether we should be building invest resources on building roads. At the moment you're also then proposing future generations to pay it back because he's borrowing but the I guess the the case that I put was that challenge the government to demonstrate how investing amounts of money was in the interest of future generations taking into account and each one of our goals who taken into carbon emissions targets taking into account future trends and scenarios whether we'd adequately thoughts about the potential impact all dry. Listen autonomous vehicles on congestion there whether we talked about orbit curious about Road taxation systems when we all go electric trick so to see a long story short is she went to public enquiry. It was efficient than that needed to be made by the minister. The public inquiry recommended that it should go ahead but the First Minister of Wales rejected that proposal so that was quite significant change in policy as a result of the legislation that we've gone. I Suppose Intervention Interventionist Myself Commissioner number nine the box worth from the bike redistribution shrub. tastic nick reasons to plant now. This is about the argument for plotting millions of more trees. We had Emily Murphy. From Friends of the Earth Academic World Mackenzie and German tree campaigner Felix Finkbeiner a few days after episode winter in July. If Yoga the World Tree Planting Record Norris Chris by planting more than three hundred and fifty million trees in a single day. That's a reference to the Guinness Book of Records for those who were born after sort of ninety nine hundred. Yeah to watch record breakers. It won't be one but when the words of brothers politically a little problematic they were that my my mother did station vision anyway. He's the episode miss so much talk right now about action on climate and the fact that we need to take urgent action climate and one of the things we ask friends. The Earth really pride ourselves with is the solutions that we have for people and government and trees is one of those solutions and it's just emphasize the fact. That trees are part of a package of climate action that we should be taking during in carbon. Yes adjoining carbon something that we call negative emissions which is drawing in carbon from the atmosphere and it also has a whole host of other benefits as well so trees reese can help us provide shade like within urban settings and flooding and flood prevention measures as well and is great for our well beings as a whole host of other benefits Eh and combat. And you want to be clear at friends of the Earth. have an ambitious target to double the amount of tree cover in the UK from thirteen to twenty six percent. Listen which goes beyond. What the government's official advisors the Climate Change Committee have recommended? And we have to be really ambitious in this age where we actually have to start urgent action now and we feel kind of nineteen percent of the committee and climate change have kind of given we really came for it to go above and beyond that. So that's why we're saying twenty six percent and it's also possible symbol. So we've done some illustrative scenarios on mapping and forces only England focus. This is possible so we're not going to be planting trees. He's on crops so we will still have food and we can have trees as well so there is land for that if we're kind of very clever with how we use the land at the home runs in Scotland is already at nineteen. Yes so so which is interesting now rub. We are incredibly excited. We are Giddy to hear about the SCI FI forest. Tell us about the sci-fi for us which is your forest. Well it's the forest. I have the privilege of working in. Yeah you're the king of the sci-fi Forest King of the jungle yes kings yongle. Yeah okay. I'll I'll live with that for the moment if there. The video link I don't think I would quite quite match up to anyone. You being too hard of a King of little buts what we're trying to do is provide some numbers numbers to more firmly. Underpin and the story that you just heard from Miami. And that's what it is. The SCIFI forest sci-fi forest is a forest where we have put a whole load of plumbing into an existing mature oak woodland so that we can gently leak into that woodland an extra carbon dioxide so that we take parts of the forest patches of the forest into the carbon dioxide atmosphere the whole planet will be in by twenty fifty so as modeling the future and seeing what role trees COMPLA- in absorbing carbon dioxide at at higher levels significantly high levels. And we have at the moment. And what have you discovered covered. Well what we found very gratifyingly as the trees so far in the first three seasons of our measurements are able to continue drawing extra carbon dioxide. When you when you offer it to them? They're they're of course there's A. There's a kind of a balanced diet argument here. which made us worry that ask come dioxide concentration's increase and increase and increase? They'll come a point when forests just can't make any use of of that extra resource Plants use cumnock signed for photosynthesis. It's the basis the of all the food chains But the but they need a balanced diet and we were worried that the forest we are looking at would not be able to make use of this extra carbon dioxide but in fact we are finding is that it is making use of dot com outside. And he's making use of it to explore what at extra resources it can defined below ground going up at number eight. There's no place like home. Social homes that as as a social revolution the history and preach of council housing thing so back on the episode we spoke to historian John. Batten inside of Asi and Jim O'Neill who served on their shelter housing commission with Ad. That's one the big thing is you've been up to this year and then we saw that there. They've party Green Party left. They all went big on social house building programs in manifestos manifestos in the election. And it seems like your argument has been one well. Let's hope that this government delivers on this. Because I think it's I think is an area where the the argument is being one not not not just simply by the shelter housing commission but just lots of the arguments about the housing crisis and the role of social housing really important. Let's hit the clip flip. Talk to us about your experience on the commission. Why you think is important but also about the economics of it by the sheer size so a number of new social homes as we're calling for three point one million twenty is the scale and I'm Bishen that goes with it obviously suggests right at the cool the whole approach thinking about housing in the UK is going to change? And that's why I love on of course for many people and public policy makers and senior Civil Simpson caught up in. You've not seems a little bit big but I think if you go coherence around big picture things. That's how you actually start to get stuff done and I think they said that you and I were. I mean pushing an open door but both of us were urging ambition. Yes it during the course and I recognize that we need the talk for an outside charity to be doing a report. There was no point in doing something which was just to the stuck in the weeds of government is one of the things I really liked about about Watching how you operate so that we we we clearly without talking about privately this office to me how to do that otherwise it I ah govern those anyhow as many of these things let me make sure it doesn't but if we wouldn't have done something like this but there is something also that speaks to your expertise. which is the sort of economic question about this? And Whether Union discusses about seeing council housing as this'll of asset just talked talked about this this infrastructure capital investment and asset. So the other thing the two or three things that really struck me from. Let's call it. Forty five thousand feet first of all. Why is housing not regarded as announcer in the same way? That's just two or cross meal would be doesn't really make sense. One of the big things that I think shelters Gawk at some supporters on a not lose momentum and some of his commissioners maybe can help a a little bit is to get the infrastructure commission that Swat three years old which is the governing body. That's looking bodies supposedly have independent analysis of walks important for Britain's infrastructure. Housing is not on it and it's never been the case. It was deliberately excluded. I didn't buy my boss. George Osborne in my extensive seventeen months is administered. The Treasury because He I suspect he deliberately would. It complicate their politics. I don't know But it was a night on so I tried to resist. It doesn't make sense for the reason you just said. And the second thing which goes with it which dawned on me and I I in housing isn't something. I've spent a lot of time thinking about in the past but when you look at the kind of basic evidence presented percents early on. It really seems to me like we've had an elastoplast policy thing as we have on so many other things but for the past four alleges that there's not really being a forty thousand feet policy Everson's Maggie option. I decided to be cool to have people who are living in council houses own them in the end of any thoughts about housing policy. And we've ended up with all these people this horrific rise in five rentals of people that really we fought to live in those places not as deliberate intention but just as a as a consequence of that and of course people can't afford to buy their own so it got. What number does he goes to the call of actually something way beyond your social housing? I fundamentally dealing with Britain's post post it's nine hundred sixty thousand dollars in my view at number seven. Oh I do like to be beside the seaside. Now there's a story behind this. which is it was was? RC side episode. It was proposed very strongly jol who came to work on. The podcast is fed say as with all successful episodes episode it was met with a degree of skepticism for me. Wasn't it Jeff. It was but it wasn't that to be absolutely gangbusters. Brilliantly listened to and a great reaction and we spoke to finance latter Nick Taylor and Sam scriven by coastal communities the new economic foundations plan for blue new deal. It was our most listened to episode of the year as I said the House of Lords Committee on regenerating seaside towns obviously listen published a report few weeks after our episode talking about Connectivity Transport Housing and education and seaside towns. Let's hear it. I have to start always when I talk about communities that have just start by saying that. Those are amazing communities with an amazing lifestyle living on the coast. That's why a lot of people retire to the coast while other people want to move to the coast when they do. You know it's amazing coastal environment so so you know there's lots of positives really strong communities the ones that I've been meeting for the past few years traveling around the coast but they do face a lot of challenges. They are complex challenges changes so the first thing I'll say is that when looking coastal communities one group of communities in the UK UC higher level that probation unemployment educational underachievement achievement. Those are economies. That have been lacking diversity and dynamism so many areas for example are heavily dependent on tourism which is seasonal industry and that means that they like resilience really so it makes them less able to cope with any shocks to the economy or environmental shocks like the effects of climate change for example. And what has been happening because the community is something that has been happening with other communities in the country which is that they have never really recovered from the loss or decline of traditional industries such as fishing shipbuilding or the glory. Days of REC- site tourism and hasn't happened is a coherent plan to reinvent coast economies into support them in feeling those those gaps that have been left for too long. They're so there's really living a cycle of disadvantage. That's how I see it. Areas there are mostly need are also the least least attractive to investment. So there's a challenge there in how do we basically make a change you know. How do we transform what's happening right now? And a potential answer to that his this lou new deal that the new economics foundation propose. Can you talk about the deal. Or what that proposes them what it would involve. Yes the blue new deal is is a vision and also plan for the UK coast. So it's I saying that the starting point for Looney deal should be Costa communities most the unique asset what sets them apart. The reason why we talk about them. which is the marine environment? And so if you're looking at you know creating a healthier coastal and marine environment and really supporting those resources on which communities heavily depend on. What does that mean then economic development? How do we think about the activities? It is going to be investing in how we will invest in them differently so the balloon ideal is very much about focusing investment in in the activities industries such as tourism has the potential to be you know a good good positive economic force. It's not doing the job yet but it could be better fisheries could be. We could drive really sustainable fisheries for real in the UK. We could invest more in renewable energy. We could invest more are in in other industries as well. That could be sat on the coast. But in order to address the challenges on why certain industries for example the digital economy hasn't been thriving on the coast in place that people would probably like to go and sit in the Sun China and then go to the office and do very remote work for example the reason for that is because because of the complex challenges so now go back to the more systemic issues for the Cosa sits on the periphery of the UK. Economy so they lack connectivities sometimes. It's really pretty hard. Disk for people to relocate to the coast because of transport infrastructure broadband. Connectivity might not be so good so what you're saying is that there's all this potential on the coast and communities are doing ready in could be doing a lot more of the right support but there is a need for a national framework of investment and end particularly look at the coast. That's why we talk about a Costa Industry Strategy but also about you know if you thinking about national infrastructure in the UK. You need to have Costa Element to it. There are particular challenges for the coast. If you're talking about skills there is a particular need you know on the coast in terms of the types of skills kills or reskilling a retraining people just outside the big top five at number six I fought the law and I won the art of if successful campaigns and in this episode we have from Gina. Martin Matt Zarb cousin about that campaigns on up skirting and fixed odds betting terminals respectively actively we also spoke to the executive director of Citizens UK by the Bolton. And for me. Anyway I thought what was great about this episode was it was stuff that big campaign for and they'd seen victory That was quite inspiring and since then gene was released a handbook book. If you want to be an activist it's really good. It's called be the change and let's hear from Genera Matt. Can you tell us the story behind your you campaign to make up skirting criminal defense. Yes so that was July two thousand seventeen. I was at British sometime festival in Hyde Park and I was waiting for Benjamin onstage. Middle of the day Really Hot Day and my sister group guys so hitting our maintenance had no probably seventy thousand times taking kind of getting I angry. I guess at that point and one of them took photos with his iphone between my legs of macron trump and. I didn't see him do that but I did. See the other guys on the phone looking at photos So I grabbed the phone guys and held it up like a bit of a scuffle with him and then people in the crowd pushed pushed him and helped me run through. The crowd was like sixty thousand people crowd so it was huge and around through the crowd got security. They called the police and the police came and they really nice but they just deleted the pit. Jeremiah door gone. And they were like this other weekdays. Sorry carry on with the night and then I kind of looked into the law and found out that had been a sexual fence in Scotland for ten years and various other countries around the world that we hadn't done that here and that's what I launched online. So so how do you see. How did you go from thinking? This is ridiculous that there's no law against this sitting than Wales thinking. I should be the person to ever a gap there. I think a big at the beginning. I was very angry about it. I think it was like the stroller. Go back in terms of growing up as young lady deal with a lot of stuff. You don't want to get on with it for no reason why we do. And I went on social media and posted actually ironically a picture a Selfie of me and my sister and they were in the background. I found it on my phone and I was like Oh that's so based on facebook twitter instagram and facebook and touch me. And we'll let you have to take down harassment. I was arrested. So it's like okay. I think we're done here. This is ridiculous and I started a petition and start a social media campaign that was fairly small advertising for seven years and I was like. Can we get these guys prosecuted any kind of starters that for the first week and then I just had this moment. It tells me from where I was like. Why did I just try and do the bigger fight like I never would? Let's give it a go like I would have never done this before. So why not. Why just for my own KS one translates on so it's up big time and hey? We got no history in campaigning. Tissue School Fridge. ISKOE you learn on the job really on. How did it go from wanting to change the law to change the largest for our listeners? So I the Social Media Media Company happened and I've done some traditional media morning shows and debates and stuff and I think I realized that I was doing I think a lot of us have the propensity to do when we want to change something thing where we kind of shout at the power to us we will this change it like how I don't if that's helpful. So how do I get clever. Here's strategic. And how do I came changing legislation so we need law firm. I need a lawyer. I need to really think about media strategy like a political strategy and kind of had that light bulb moment and then I went to a whole bunch of law firms and Gibson Dunne who global law firm agreed to back me. Actually it was one of the young lawyers Ryan whalen. Who's twenty nine? Who is now a great friend and we got together and plan their strategy and then went to parliament starts talking to Eh p small parties and kind of building inside? The walls really was how we started at. Let's talk to you the campaign you've been very involved in his stopping fixed odd betting terminals. Can you talk about how you became involved in that what it was about that that was resonated personally for me personally. It was Got Addicted to fix those backing seven sixteen underage and then over a period of four years I lost in the region of twenty thousand pounds of going to huge amount. A huge amount of debt came very close to the end Take him out of life and before style gambling i. They didn't know you could get addicted to camping. Didn't get certain products brought out in people more than and more than other products. I think the whole understanding of gambling addiction. My understanding was very limited until I was experiencing it and then when when a AH stop gambling I had therapy and Took me about six months from end to to completely stop and then finished my degree after that and then started campaigning just voluntarily sue worked with a group of reformed family sticks and we was sort of trying to get something going And Really Did Dispatches Program in twenty twelve which was on Britain's high-street Gamble Michael a quick thing and then guy going with me Derek Webb who's a philanthropist and he wants it to compete against these machines He had a background grounding gambling and on the stood some gambling products are more addictive than others. And it's about game design and how interacts with the player and we set up. Stop BEF BTS in early twenty thirteen. And it's been a real testing absolute slug doc reasons to be cheerful cast about ideas with Ed milliband. Jeff light at number five. It's live at Abbey Road fixing music education. This was a great treat for us. Wasn't it it was just one task pilgrimage but actually it wasn't just the being being Abbey road walls one hundred episode and actually with a brilliant discussion with Deborah Nets from the Incorporated Society of Musicians. Music teacher Jimmy Roll throw who got the audience. Yes of reasons whichever listening music industry people who are cynical and everyone joined that he was such an inspiration. Tunstall old jobs Malton and Rebecca Lucy Taylor since then the BBC launched a major project on promoting music education September. Casey Telstar released a charity Christmas a single a cover of John Lennon's give me some truth. Let's hear it. Just tell us a little bit for those who don't know about how music education works in the UK. A terms of war other in England moby about in schools. Some what's this. What does this little requirements in schools? What's compulsory? What's aw okay? So we've got this thing called the national curriculum which all state schools theoretically have got to follow but then the academy's was set up and the academies with all that they didn't have to follow the national curriculum. What that has meant is that seventy two percent of secondary schools schools and academies and a huge number of them have basically given up on the national curriculum as have many primary schools and music is part of the national curriculum? So if your school isn't obliged to follow it because it's known academy chances are it may disappear and what we're seeing at key stage three is. It's called so it's the twelve. Fourteen year olds in secondary schools. The majority of those and no longer studying music and fifty percent primary schools have lawson music as well and most coaches concert mainly. I'm afraid it's the driver of the academies and also something called the back which which we're going to talk about because unfortunately the impacts of the BAC is to remove creative subjects in our in our schools schools because there isn't time for them because everybody's doing triple science or French or geography huge amounts of geography mass and English. The rest of it and the bank is sort of about call series of subjects. which you have to do basically all subjects onto the actually not in the calls right so back in two thousand and ten Dan when this idea came out of the conservative government music was there in the first interview with Michael Music was there and then the second interview view disappeared and it's been kind of falling through the cracks ever since which has caused huge trauma in relation to what's going on in our secondary secondary schools? You know music teachers losing their jobs very often. No Music Department is now just one teacher in a secondary school and being timetabled off so definitely within key stage three. You may only get one music lesson every term if you're lucky and can we talk a little bit about why it's important beyond just creating took another McCartney and had been impacted conurbation and its employees so more more broadly wires music I think music is part of being a human being. You know if you go back to the beginning of time. The Dawn of time caveman was in his cave. Join pitchers of musical instruments. Plato the Great God. Plato talked about music being absolutely fundamental to education so it was going really well. For a lot of ancient Greeks reeks getting to grips with music. And then we have through recent times. Government policy has very very much being embarking on this knowledge focused way of schooling which is basically sticking as much education in terms of facts. Wchs am knowledge and content into into children's heads. People doing music is something I wanted. Twenty all that's right so since two thousand fourteen music. UCSE has dropped seventeen percent creative subjects as a whole have dropped eighteen percent and there is just come to Jimmy. There is a sort of public private issue here. which is I think you will say to? The Nation report showed that eighty five percent of Independent. School said they have a school orchestra. Only thirty two percent of state school. So there's a big divide is a huge device or if you think about music being caught to being a human being and you really do they want all children to be exposed to it. The something fundamentally unfair about eaten having one hundred visiting music teachers one hundred one hundred. That's outside of the Music Department but one hundred visiting music teachers in addition to that school department of Music whereas in most state schools there's virtually version nothing so in terms of diversity and what the music industry is going to look like in the future. There was a real problem. There that we're just GONNA have push kids nothing against push kids but actually turnt resides in. Anybody it's not about class open well at number four it's who's afraid of GDP. I shift into a wellbeing economy. This is a great episode. We spoke to Finance Minister Grant Robertson about his first wellbeing budget in New Zealand. And and then we discussed with Academic Bronwyn Hayward the NFC quick and former cabinet secretary. Gus O'Donnell I was disappointed that the episode that didn't quiet was bubbling under the top. Ten was reasons to be literally bubbly on the given experience in the hawk. Giza's released video of you. I think Yeah I think the reason I mention that as the Icelandic prime minister friend of the catcher in Yacob's dot says she introduced days to well-being budget earlier Just at the end of last year in December which was inspired by our episode. I'm sure as was the Lib Dem's adopting a policy of introducing a wellbeing budget Nicholas Sturgeon gave a Ted talk about focusing on wellbeing. This podcast really have big repercussions. So let's let her go so donald talking about it. How is policy made at the moment? Just before we get onto how you think the kind of well being approached would would would change it when I think when you're looking at policies you'll often very focused on the financial so when you were Treasury Treasury you'll worrying about deficit so you look at financial returns. Costs some benefits and benefits drawn up relatively narrowly oviously over over the years. That's got better and better so for example when you'll deciding whether to build a road on off you're looking at trying to value time savings but also the the sightings in reduced accidents lied saved injuries. Say but also impact on air pollution. Co Two all those sorts of thanks so policies getting broader embroider. I think the the stent where we hat where we're struggling with is moving that forward saying yes but overall all is this leading to an improvement people's quality of life or their wellbeing. And that kind of gets you into the area of how do you actually measure that wellbeing well-being and now we have the Office for national statistics looking at different ways of asking people so subjective wellbeing you know overall how satisfied with your life questions and why do you think the current approach is sort of insufficient. There's quite a lot it doesn't capture HSA for you. Is that right. Yes so if you take let me take the example of health when we look at whether a new drug should be available on the NHL saw. Aw We know how much the drug costs among we value. Whether we should do it on all wait wait lose a quite sophisticated measure called collies quality adjusted rested light years. Which says how much does this actually improve a quality loy for someone so if you have a drug that cost five million and actually keeps people going for one more week when they're in acute pain anyway? That probably wouldn't do it whereas you've got drugs which actually give people pretty good quality of life for or time and aunt so expensive. You might want to go with that. Now that's an example where we're doing what I would call proper wellbeing analysis but actually when we come to thinking about should we keep this hospital opened on on. How much should we spend on drugs raw than a behavioral program to prevent Things things then I think we it's to go wrong. If you're using a wellbeing approach for example health you'd be much keen on spending money on children's mental health and making sure the mental health people who have mental health illnesses diagnosed were actually treated. How strong is the the link between GDP and wellbeing generally if there's growth and there's more money for public spending does does that tend to mania living in a country with high wellbeing metrics as well? The relationship isn't one for one by any means and obviously PA This problems with JD. Eighty paid in a people using GDP as a a measure of how well you'll doing really do need to kind of grow up I think because GDP matches somewhat. But it's a measure of activity off. How well you'll doing? Even Simon cousins put together many many decades ago. Oh said don't use this as a measure of success for example if all the people doing volunteering announce -ociety suddenly gave up volunteering and started doing illegal drug activity. Jaydee will go up so. GDP is a measure of activity. It goes up when you have catastrophes. uh-huh uh-huh quakes It goes up when you use up resources depleting your resources particular minerals So it's really. It's not a sensible measure however society is doing. We're into the top three now at number three Germinal Dermal. That is more like two fingers on the desk. It's the kids are alright. People climate strikes and the green new deal now of course the climate strike for a big big part of two thousand nineteen. We went onto student. Climate strike in Parliament Square dance to and Peta and that actually the green new deal to be one of the most talked about political ideas of the major part of the US Democratic primary. The Labor agreed. You deal movement here and of course the global climate strike which took place in September. Let's hear I'm Petipa. You were there the creation of the green new deal. We'll tell us sort of what motivated you to come up with the idea and then tell us about the content of it just to get us so we can sort of for our listeners. Kind of located. What does it actually really mean right? Okay well first of all the actual green new deal word phrase I think was thought by Friedman the Journalists on the New Times Friedman before two thousand seven but in two thousand and seven eight colon hind who had worked at Greenpeace for time convened convened a group of his pals and I was one of them and what we were trying to do is to address the triple clubs because this is in the middle of the financial crisis. But it's before layman's crash. So we the triple crown which we faced financial crisis to climate crisis and three peak oil. We believe that we were heading towards Pico recorder. Of course that was a wrong story but never mind so. The fact. Is that the things that I want to get across words that you cannot do anything about the climate climate unless you do something about the economy go to transform the economy because it's the economy that if you like has created the crisis and and that's very a hard for Greens to do a greens green campaigners and activists tend to compartmentalize it into this nature this environment and leave economics to chaps in pinstripe suits and we said no no no. We have to integrate these so so can you give me the key elements silence of the new deal that you came up with so the first element is to do with the financial system the financing of it the taxation associated sort of the financial side of managing the transformation of the economy away from carbon the second element was a greater energy efficiency and and Labor a generating activity which is substitution Carbon Labor for carbon. A big idea at that time was to retrofit every property in Britain club. Insulation has the insulation to make buildings more energy efficient because so many emissions are linked to our buildings how closely does is the the the the US green new deal that we're hearing about. How closely does that resemble your proposal? So what happened was a year ago this about this time last Izak eggs lead turned up on my doorstep and right and he said I've come from the US. We've setups have been called justice. Democrats Kratz we'd like to get twenty left wing Democrats elected in the midterms and was thinking about the presidential the twenty president but we you have no economic strategy and he'd read my book and he has a little plug. It's called the production of money and he loved it particularly loves that phrase that Keynes used which was we can afford what we can do. In other words that we'd developed monetary system to enable us to do what we can do and there are limits to what we can do but they're not limited to the use we make monetary system to enable us to do it anyway. He loved that so we began talking had some meetings. He went back home. And then one day he pops up with a Google doc and says his the green new deal and so basically that they are the same that the elements all the same but they downplay the question region of financing at the moment and of the monetary system and instead they focus on taxation. I'm I'm happy I'm happy with too much of a focus on taxation and we can talk about that and they they also focus on the social justice angle one more place to go until we find out. What is the big number one on this year's reasons to be cheerful top ten episodes of the? What's that number two? Just missing out on the top spot is born to open brackets. Park closed brackets doc. It's run bond to park run jeffords excellent adventure. That was one of your suggestions. On what the podcast should be called wasn't yeah before revolved around. No Jeff Ed sex. Yeah yeah that's true. And it was one of our on location episodes. We went to one but it was recorded recorded before it was recorded. Twenty six but it was still an episode in January nineteen. Ah Nineteen now we went clarins reply on my PK. We spoke to chief. Executive Harrison author Bella mackey. And and and it was quite incredible because the next week they had how many more people zone up lots. They celebrate. Fifteenth Birthday in June pout. Run generally not just Ed's report WANNA is a phenomenon and somebody doncaster park. Running cousin with whole is brilliant as sample punk. So it's popcorn is the highlight of my twenty nine hundred. So you've said so. Let's say from Nick. The way we would describe part one is probably. It's a series of free. A weekly community led socially focused physical activity events started in southwestern in two thousand and full will one group of thirteen individuals around the park persuaded to turn up by the founder post into Hewitt to begin with it was clear. Running event put on for a very perf polls running friends and we now move away from calling running thing because it's whatever you want to be there for people to run jog people to walk people to volunteer and all of those things are equally important to us so from two thousand and four the one win now at around about fifteen hundred events globally every single wake in twenty countries we have just over five million registered part runners five it's only been in the UK is in the UK of which around about We just record actually end of November. We had biggest-ever number which was two hundred would ninety two hundred thousand people participated over the course of one weekend either running walking jogging or volunteering and January's massive month for for us. Is it constantly growing. Yeah yeah so it's it's the overall global growth is probably twenty five percent just to be clear as one hundred and fifty thousand people do it every week every single week every single. I mean. That's all it's unbelievable. But that number is also rapidly is rapidly growing so that would have been united seventy five thousand units to two and a half years ago so Where we see it going? is we see We see it not being that that far away that we reach a million people to wake the participating the scale. The massive skied out of numbers is not really what our objective is we feel. That's almost an inevitable consequence of of where. What do you think is about part? One that people people are latching onto what. Why do people love? It was such a success. I think there's hundreds and hundreds of different reasons for that. I think that that there is something about its egalitarian nature. That was set out from day. One and he's represented by the character and values and ethics of the founder and that's the everybody's equal and everybody should be treated equally free and it's free. Yeah but but the traditional running event will create a hierarchy based around performance and we actually challenge that an attempt the two from day one disrupt that so even though day one with thirteen paypal was unquestionably a running event. Pull gave out to prices won first place at one tossed place and that represented even at that moment in time. Although we had no idea what it was going to go on to become it represented the fact that to pull they were of equal value and everybody people he was of equal value and actually operating in a world or an environment where you can be yourself. And I'm being made to feel of equal value. I think he's quite a unique A unique thing and so that definitely definitely definitely resonates I I think that there is a natural sense of community. The the exists in people's DNA and as lives get busier and not get stripped out of our choices when you when you give people the opportunity to experience community again. I think that I really enjoy it. And so you know we see that we see that there's a royal wedding can't wait to get the the tables out and celebrate it because it almost hawks back talk where those kind of things happened. All the time and I think community is a basic human requirement. Which is why it crosses coaches Dan Dant at Tanta to now the number one? I thought I guess my little red dishes. The side of that was very good symbols then the number one reasons to be cheerful episode of two thousand nine as empire state of mind overhauling the history we teach and to be honest. I actually what you think but I think this was a pretty clear winner. Yeah for for two hundred nineteen and it was a brilliant show it was live at the Clapham grand with the Bambara and Jason talked about British Empire failures teach about you in schools in the history of empire loads of listeners touch and their experiences of history education and how little they felt they knew one university lecturers would I episode on their reading list for undergraduate history students. Though I can't find who it was boss Madrid that bit out. South Labor pledged to add the teaching of history of Empire to the curriculum in their election. Manifesto I mean honestly and I think both Jason it's An and particularly were brilliant guests and we're going to hear the click of commander that Lay Judson. Is The matt the British Empire in Nineteen Twenty one. Now into. You're going to tell us. This is like the basic foundational moment of the discussion where we will get. If we weren't taught in school what Britain walls basically nine hundred twenty one. Well I guess the first thing to understand is that Britain doesn't become come all the bits and read all at the same time and so before you have Britain you have the kingdoms of England and Scotland. They the entrance union in Seventeen seven through an act of union both England and Scotland have colonies prior to that act including their close neighbours as well as colonies further afield Virginia and the West indies. So at the very moment that Britain comes into being it already has colonies already has imperial real intentions and so it comes into being as an empire and then over the next two centuries it goes round invading and colonizing much of the rest of the world so that by the height of empire by nine hundred twenty one. That's pretty much. The peak of empire Britain has control over Bondo in that sense and one quarter of the Earth's land territory it governs over one fifth of the world's population including extracting taxes from that population Shen and that governs over one two of the world's Muslims by nine hundred twenty one. I'm Britain got very very rich. Says yes there. It was a report written in eighteen. Hundred five you're looking. You told us before you are looking at the national accounts from eight hundred eight thousand five the other night which I just shot wall series person can you all. It was report. Taisel the general statistics of Rish Empire. Yeah Richard Temple. WHO's the secretary of the Royal Statistical Society he Outlined the fact that in eighteen eighty five Britain had a national income of two hundred and three million pounds of that eighty four million pounds came from taxes and resources says in the UK seventy-nine million came from taxes and resources from India and forty million came from the rest of the colonies so the national national wealth. That's under the control of the National Government in Westminster. More than half of that. Wealth comes from the colonies. Every institution is Britain. It's funded by the wealth of empire. Okay and then the other thing that is incredibly fascinating bailout to tell us about the Because using the bailout of two thousand today was expensive and like a big deal tell us about the bailout of the slave owners so I mean one of the things awesome one way talking about empire. We're talk about slavery and one of the I things and is how Britain abolished slave trade. And it's like yes. Britain did abolish slave trade but after about two hundred years of profiting from it and the prophets from the slave trade didn't end with the ended the slave trade because the only reason slave owners and Britain agreed to the abolition of the slave trade was because they would be compensated so just to underline underline. It wasn't the people who had been enslaved who were compensated for their loss of liberty. It was the British slave owners people who owned other people who were compensated and they were compensated incited to a tune of twenty million pounds in eighteen thirty three. That's the equivalent of seventeen billion pounds today which to put it another way is forty percent of GDP forty percent of GDP GDP that was twenty million twenty million to forty percent of our total compensation and there wasn't enough money in the country to pay people and so what the government did was raised Bonn so those bonds were raised. The slave owners paid and we that is British British taxpayers both in Britain and the colonies only finished off paying that bond in two thousand fifteen. So if you've paid tax prior to twenty fifteen fifteen you have paid compensation to people who owned other people and that was still being paid. So it's been paid to be to the answer of a money was borrowed by the government so we've been paying through taxes to the pain back of that that bond and the interest on that and that was at the top ten podcast of the off. Thank you so much for listening to us in two thousand nineteen we. We hope you'll stick with us in two thousand and we'll be back we're going to be doing more. Live shows cheerful book club Yes. We'll be properly birthing that in a few weeks time. I'm said lots of look forward to happy new year. Happy New Year. Well as every week but you know even more focused the last one of the year we want thank mccutcheon. I'm who produces our podcast with backup research from Joel Piss and Joe Kenyan. Gal lofthouse is our announcer at seed compose music. James Deka made the identity and the artwork was dose reduced. It will actually produce partly two thousand nine hundred by Emily Powell yes. Cs Fat To to be she liked his of the kind of one. The artwork was produced by emily. Power and the work was not produce. Hey Emily power exactly bought bought. It was produced by hand recall. He's been an old acquaintance into the big reasons to be cheerful.

UK Britain Wales Scotland Jeff Jeff Lloyd John John Byrd England shelter housing commission Welsh government UN founder Ed milliband Nick Taylor Music Department
Consider The Lilies, With Naturalist Educator Joe Joe Clark

Cultivating Place

54:09 min | 1 year ago

Consider The Lilies, With Naturalist Educator Joe Joe Clark

"This is cultivating place conversations on natural history and the human impulse to garden pardon from north state public radio in northern California. I'm Jennifer Jewel as we ring in the New Year of this new decade with the power of twenty twenty twenty hours for the making this week. We welcome Gardner Naturalist Educator Husband and Lily Lover Joe Joe Clark born and raised in Vallejo California to a garden loving mother. Joe is a naturalist working on interpretation public engagement and education occasion and nearly equal amounts of paperwork for the Napa County Open Space district taking him to both state and county parks in coastal stole Northern California. He joins us today from his home garden to share more about his garden life journey and his abiding love for the lillies. Welcome Joe for excited to the Audio podcasts. I'm so grateful so before we get into to your fieldwork. Go back a little bit. Tell me about your earliest influences. That led you to be this kind of person. Why Natural I? I'm sorry I garden at home and I have to thank my mom for that. I was born in Vallejo California and my childhood was pretty awesome. I had an opportunity to to be outside a lot and with that ed come with the tours so we had a garden in the back of our yard and it had all these vegetables that I loved. I mean I love eating. I love eating but the fruit that she she drew was amazing and my younger brother. He actually took on a lot of the homework and kind of a thank sort of guided the guard for me. I was more into other things that I could eat. But the things that attracted me through my is that That sense you know and the smell and so she did have some irises. That were in the front yard. I didn't really know that they were native but later on I kinda grew into you know my my interests of native plants of California -Fornia they were native They were Douglas. Iris Mummy version. And so that developed this hunger I guess you know talk about how being a naturalist and bean gardener both evolved in you as you headed toward Collagen. Indeed you incorporate those into what you studied at college talk about that Actually I went to J. C. in a Fairfield and Solano honor communication. And I knew that I wanted to study bio at the time. I loved Anything that was living in the water so I I wanted to be a marine biologist in the right and then after about two or three semesters had opportunity to go to Africa uh South Africa and I loved it. It was amazing. It was the Mediterranean climate. It was just beautiful and also also I loved language so the People that I interacted down near the new at least four or five languages so when I came back to California is like Omegas I wanNA learn a language and I thought would be the best suit for me because I really wanted to go back to Africa and I love Leon right so I really and I still do so. That was the sort of the foundation. I guess of that for my college career Gardening in kind of took a back to took the back seat at that time. Because I was just going back and forth from class. I didn't really as Tommy. It was really hard. I thought to garden with Some of the things that were in my mind that I wanted to do. So you know okay so I wanNA pause I WANNA go back a little bit to the South Africa experience. was that just random or or did you choose to go there as a foreign in study and were you looking at plants while you're there because of course it's like one of the great plant bucket list destinations on the planet. Actually I went there because I was in a singing group and so we toured for about two weeks I so oh I grew up very Not Rule religious little bit. I went to church every Sunday. You know and we sang a lot so so we had opportunity to go to South Africa to sing and I didn't even know about all wonders of the botanical wonders in South South Africa. And all the cool bulbs right on there so what I was seeing down there I I knew was gorgeous and beautiful and was amazed by it but I I didn't really know I was nineteen years old bay but I was singing a lot. I was eating my my single one so I didn't in status such a great story and it is so you go to South Africa. You have this kind of a little bit of an earth earth life changing experience you come back to school you you take up French. Yeah I took French I I absolutely loved IT I. It's a a language still in my heart that I you know I think about in an us. Sometimes I'm in the wine country you now so you could. I wouldn't counter People from pick a foreign countries on the reason why I did Study for us because I wanted to be Wanted to work with the Peace Corps in Africa and At the time there were these two passions in my heart and I didn't know how to choose correctly Choose directly but where to go like should I study science or should I just study just French or or a language When I transferred from Solano Community College on I went to cinema state and I was there for about a good two semesters the third semester? Unfortunately I had a stroke and so I lost. I lost everything I kinda didn't couldn't read anymore or you know talk English or French and I was setting a little bit of Spanish at the time time but I totally lost all that. Yeah it was almost like a reset and only two things that were still like when when I when I woke up after the stroke was my love of outdoors and music. Like if that sense. You know Yeah that is a powerful story and the fact that those two things were so like part of your cellular makeup they stuck with. You is so powerful. Joe Joe Wow I made back up to a little bit because there's a part that That you Kinda China you'll get a little onto the story so when I was really young like five years old my uncle lives he. Unlisted lives in Cordelia near Fairfield Park called Rockville Park and as a kid he would take us there. You know constantly. And that's where I was introduced to oaks. I think oaks was sort of like the gateway reme- for California native plants. Now we're GONNA fast this little bit right after the the stroke so when I woke up I couldn't don't talk at all. I I knew what I wanted to say. But I couldn't articulate to my parents with my friends and family who who came to visit me But at night So crazy I would sleep and I would be in an oak within setting and everything was peaceful. Oh everything was you know exactly intact to the things that I loved and remembered sort of at that time and so I think hopefully that makes sense but the that's how it's still really any you know. Wow So. Hopefully that was part of the question. Listen I'm so so this this being in the Oak Woodland setting this was sort of a visual visual and sensual sensual. Sensory kind of memory or or image that you held in your in your dreams that were sort of part part of your recovery as you see it yes he has actually did help me a lot on. I would have to go to their classes and they would have to Show me photos of different types of images like a balloon or a girl or something that and I really couldn't pinpoint what it was but I knew what it was. You know in my in my mind when there was ever a tree or when there was a flower it was like oh I know what that is and sometimes French would come. First in English become later on but the ad that's those That whole natural role rolled is. It's really interesting how it was locked in my my brain at that time and it still is and so how many years or or months. Or what was the time period of cussing both occupational therapy and physical therapy to get you back to you too where you had been How long was that before you could take up schooling again? Joe Joe Yeah so the time line was it was is in January of twenty twelve and it was the day before class started. That's when I have to look and so who is in the hospital for about two weeks and then For the middle of February I got better I was released and so oh I would go back to the hostel for more. There'd be classes every every day until May and so the every was pretty pretty fast and I probably have to think my age At the time right after that I went right back a to work. I was while going to school. I was working at Alliance redwoods in Occidental Cinema and so I got a chance. Sir Leave home you know and move. Their mom was really nervous because you know she happened so fast. I it's just go back into the forest and that is exactly where the lilies came into. Play Okay Yeah so yeah so talk about that so for for listeners. Joe Joe's feed on Instagram is called lily boy joy he pulse. Post all kinds of things you post beautiful things but it is your incredible love for and Not just the pictures but the words as well for finding in meeting different species different specimens of lilies throughout about the state of California That really are they just floors me every time. Joe Joe it does send me who who am in in its presence as well I love that flowered species on all types of native Francis. Well but I. I was introduced to that plan Through a book a nurse was leaving the camp sites he was he lived there for about thirty years. And she's going to move. ooh And she was giving all her books. You know to people who are interested and one of those books was the floor of the Redwood area on the back of the cover of the book. Was this a leopard lily and I was just like really. There's there's little lillies either in California. I didn't know at the time you know and I was basically flabbergasted by that had And I try to look for them on the property and I couldn't find them at all so I kind of gave up on it And a year later I was walking near a creek and I saw wine and I I literally just almost fainted like it was amazing. I was so happy and see for excited to see. I thought they were all extinct at at the time. Because that's how my mind was working. I didn't really know They were still here. You know Event that led me to this. Whole world really did into Those areas where they're found and protecting them as well like this year two years after the fire in Sonoma's Napa the counties. They're coming up like crazy and being underneath them some of them. Are you know six to nine feet tall ones that I've experienced in had like like forty flowers. It is really a humbling. Experience really is and the fragrance that leach you on the trails before you see them. It really is is a spiritual. I guess encounters in Ainge. I'm Jennifer Jewel and this is cultivating place this week. Naturalist Joe Joe Clark is joining us to share his love of native plants of time outdoors and especially especially of his love for the native lilies of California. We'll be back for more with Joe Joe after a break If there's one thing that I hope we all take from this conversation with Joe Joe Clark. It's this take time. Make time to really and truly and fully love what you love. Love what you find beautiful beautiful healing expanding and meaningful in your garden and on your trails on this generous planet of ours if you you love lillies then by all means fully. Love them if you love your vegetable garden here. topiary bonsai fragrant roses or taking children or other adults on nature walks through the woods along streams pointing out the diversity and wonder of mushrooms. Leaves seed forms If you love cooking with your garden bounty or crafting with gourds whatever it is give yourself time for it. There's never for a better time than right now today where you are where the world is. Let your great loves meat up. There's healing and growing to be done right there now. Back to our conversation with Joe Clark. This is cultivating place conversations on natural history in the human impulse to garden. We're back now now with naturalist Joe Joe Clark sharing with us his garden life journey in the first segment of our conversation. Joe Joe shared how at the age of twenty two you in January of twenty twelve. He suffered a stroke while in college majoring in French and minoring in biology. He lost everything. His words his memories his ability to move during his recovery. He met the Lilly family in California for the first time and he found a great deal of healing in the natural communities formed by some of our most charismatic trees coast and giant Redwood Forests Oak Woodlands Ponderosa Pine and Doug Fir forests along with their associated soils climates and other plants including the geophysic lilies. As we come back Joe Joe is talking about his is interest. In the diversity of these forests including their different lily populations when you're in the the redwood forest coastal redwood forest. Boris you usually find things. I handle. a lot more shade ferns for example or the Calypso Kubotausa that ferry Three slipper like that and For me and those areas would be the lillies The lose actually do go out in areas. So you'd find them in the Sierras as well Not so much in the Oakland's but in the chaperone areas really hot areas you'll find those there so you will find these little cool geo fights that could be a bowl Arise or tuber all those things that have a structure that holds all their juice. You know that that they grow from comes from okay so now. Let's go straight to the lilies. I know you love Ferns and and all the Associated Flora but Lily of course is a whole family of plants and it's also a genus and it's also got many species across the world. It's it's a big in group. I think You correct me if I'm wrong but I think we have twenty one species and subspecies that are needed to the state of California. Yeah and in and they they range in there because they are geo fight And they hold all of their storage capacity underground around they're incredibly resilient and adaptable to different environments. Right that's very true for example Lillian William Rebecca since the combination would be a red with really They are found in the redwood forest. And they're also found in Tabora the area so they're they're also called the chaperone lily and they are not found near water. Usually when you think of a lily e think of a stream ferns turns You'll see but there is another type. We call them the dry land lease and they live in an in an area where they're found They're bulbs are found probably six inches. Keep down in the ground covered. Oh by either clay. That has a lot of training that goes through. And it's just amazing to see that happen. I love you ever encounter those but if you do you just like we're in the world. How do they do because the bulb is a fleshy bulb? It doesn't have any skin around it like if you go to Cosco or you know a store you see a bag of bulbs and they do have this coat around it for the lily species of California Day. They they don't habit at all which is amazing best why I actually am more excited about learning more about that as well in how they endure such harsh environments. Because you see that like you think of that papery flesh coming off Daffodil rate and its protective. Yeah but the these lillies are. They seem so exposed and vulnerable. When you when you can hold them in your hand or you you see them in person like that and how how are they able to hold on for long hot summers or cold? Cold winters is or how do they not get eaten or nectar disease. Stir but they are they have this incredible strength with their vulnerability. Usually it's the the debt that they're especially for the The Dry Valleys like a humble lily that you'll find in Dan Sierras or there's a subspecies down in southern California the really deep Danny Earth and there's installation around in that area which to create that in the garden is pretty hard to do really is but Sometimes I in the SIERRAS. I snow that is melted down and it goes down into the ground and it kind of seals a little bit of the bulb in southern California as well. There is irrigation underneath leafier that kind of protects it from that hot sun but they do is so interesting they do need that. That hotness which is interesting can be in full sign it's just really interesting They are also a favorite treat for different animals. I mean and paroles that is leg leg ice cream it really is especially for deer as well on the main be protected by a shrubs. You you know things that sort of protect them you can find populations where there could be you know Like a spice Bush you know around Creek and lilies that grew under underneath it is very beautiful scenery. But that's the way how they can survive in those areas and Dan I would. I would like to mention The native American tribes is wealth indigenous. People they use that bulb for for food food as well Not as much as a potato but more like on It's very very spicy like garlic. Were onion you know to put in for more seasoning. So they would they would protect the ball as well meaning that They would use it on lifted up and take some of the the scale audited as well put it back on the ground around you know and harvest as well so and so the native American peoples of California would use all lily bulbs ups or were there specific that were particularly good edibles from my knowledge in front of read all of them were used okay and so and that's so interesting that they are spicy. I would never think they were spicy and of course they are a bulb or GE fight like the aaliyah GMS but they don't have they have that gorgeous sent to the flowers most of them but they don't have A sent to like stem him. That I'm aware of like when you cut one or one is broken. Exactly and so. That spiciness seem so surprising. Yeah I I grew my own but I don't eat them I I've talked to some people who have used the the bulb for demonstration on in nature American cuisines on May the Polo Pomo tripe up here we have a great exhibits. We do have those wonderful things that we can learn from. But that's how I got to experience experienced that and do you know like I'm thinking of that fleshy bulb and I'm thinking of how white it is and so it probably doesn't have the same level of You know like Tannin's that some boobs or seeds we'll have that have darker coding will. How are they the kind of thing that you have to prepare in order for them to be edible or are they? Edible rate from the the rawness and I ask this mostly because ask if we should issue a warning about not going out into eating your lily bulbs we should do it right now. Joe Joe no you can eat them it cooked or raw at both way. It both ways And I would have to warning out there because I wouldn't necessarily go out and look for them the main reason I would have this warning is because they're uncommon in California or pretty rare. I I would say half a half of this. Species are is on The rare plant Rank usually one one to four. So you know I was go to you know trader. Joe's Garlic or or you know so wholesome oh her well and I think you're noting that you grow them at home and you still don't eat. Them is an important caveat because one it is illegal to harvest anything like this in the wild without a permit and especially on a public or government owned or managed land and I and it's just never a good idea to eat something that you've collected in the wild that you don't know an incredible amount about and And as you say most of these are listed as rare or endangered and so it is absolutely unethical to collect in the wild Growing at home from seed growing growing at home from someone else's You know Dividing them by the scales as you were mentioning. The indigenous peoples of California did in what is is a slightly bigger version of gardening. Is that you know these these bulb collection whether it's lilies or chemists or The albums were all managed and harvested. I did and then re replanted divided like we do By you know taking the big bulb out pulling off the baby pups and little bowl blitz and then redistributing them so that the populations would increase not decrease through harvest. Right exactly true. That's right and if you read a little bit of the historical records of when the Spanish humor you would see you know through their words. The color of the fields of California and. I'm also guessing that there were a lot of lilies as well that they witness In at you could imagine And that's where I come into play with my work as well so I do find populations at on trails you you know. And I documented them and I you know create An awareness or you know if a children's to be built this way or choice we speak going that way we kinda diverted so We could leave the lillies alone or either Protective Theory Mir tale have to remove and put them in place long. I'm Jennifer jewel and this is cultivating replace. Joe Joe Clark is a naturalist working with the Napa County Open Space District. He has a deep love of the native lilies of California as plants Lance of great beauty and strength. We'll be right back for more about them after the break Hey it's Jennifer thinking out loud this week. Joe Is going to talk more about this at the end of our conversation sation but I wanted to offer out this one word for you to consider as we embark on this newest freshest most hopeful of years risk and that word is presence this is among the greatest gifts offered out to us demanded in fact in that tough love of mother kind of way by our garden and nature an ever deepening literacy into both that gift being offered is presence without true presence in these spaces. We Miss Everything we miss. What's in bloom? What's needing to be done and went and were missing? What the season is showing US telling us? Were missing the sound and pacing of our own breath in an out. oxygenating US us. We're missing our own blood pumping and hearts beating and the birds calling simultaneously. We're missing the wind wind rustling. The grasses and leaves really being in relationship with our gardens requires presence and the presence that we learned learn and practice there can and does I think inform and improve our presence everywhere in our other work in our other relationships relationships. It's worth noting I think. And it's worth being as deliberate as we possibly can with it and in appreciation of it as you walk. Walk to your compost as you shovel snow as you rake. Leaves Prunier doormat fruit trees and vines and your roses in preparation for the first I flush of spring be present and see what grows from there mentally physically emotionally creatively. See what grows now back to our conversation with Joe Joe Clark on his great love of the presence of lilies in his life. This is cultivating place. Conversations are natural history and the human impulse to garden. We're back now with naturalists Joe Joe Clark sharing with us his Gordon Life Journey. He's walked us through the Anatomy and Growth Habits abbots of the native lilies of California as we come back sharing with us how he grows them in his garden and the importance of being really present present in the presence of these gems of the natural world when and where we meet them. The diversity in California is remarkable and you are a remarkable recorder of this diversity Talk about the ones that that you have seen. Have you seen all twenty one. I Have I have seen all twenty one. Then you SOM- Some in the garden in some in the wild and I mean honestly it's almost like meeting Like your best friend or or or somebody that you you know. You're Meyer Lot This year I got to Travel up to Humboldt County donor to county as well with My friends on his friends Lynn. And guys we it was this is so cool to go around even right off the road. Easily the off the road on do the disturbance of that habitat which is is perfect for them. Because it's great drainage selenium Colombiana Columbia Lily. A lot of the Party line was which are deliberately lease. Unlimited Lilies have a complex all all to themselves which is so amazing. You can find these for or five different types of Limpar Lynam subspecies there and Lillian. Occidental the Western really which is a really rare one. Which Sir is such a beautiful lily which is a scarlet red and has a green star in the middle of it. It's amazing it's just greed great and I keep hunger and on and on but it is something that you have to witness to go and see Sebnem and It does been awareness of Not just of the lillies but the surrounding area round too. I mean the forest and the other things that you would see like. I'm in love with firms right now because usually see firms with lilies. Always in you know. And it's just amazing. So you have a recent instagram posts that reads my heartbeats needs to the colors of pinks purples and reds my senses are intoxicated by the fragrance that they adorn to perfection. These lillies are my friends. They approve of my aspirations towards them. which I just loved Joe Joe and it gets to the incredible edible range of colors that these lilies display which is not the case with all flour groups rape but there's the pure pure white ones and then there are the Pale pink and then the bright pink and the purples in the oranges in spotted and and they do have this fantastic array of markings things in stripes and dots? Their praise beautiful. It really is. It's just one of those things where if you witness it in person or just the photos does as well hopefully a captured perfectly in the photos. But I mean it can go on and on the colors the variations on and they it can hybridise with each other. All of them can and so when you find those Say for example a A Leopard Billy which is usually orange in in red a mix it with The Kellogg Kalis Lily and that usually usually is a pink. You know be light and if you find those two together you could. The colors are analysts in times. And it's it's amazing and I'm not the only person who loves delays in you know what a you know. Bring to their world. I'm thinking of a some gardeners over in Europe Elites Gardner Name Drake Drake Fos and he hybridize a Lillies Min late seventies and early eighties. And he you know had a whole world of different types of crease is that he made an mainly why there's a lot of California California Lilies in Europe is because a call pretty than if you've heard him but friends with Luther Burbank at late late eighteen hundreds and early twentieth century He was a person who Would go out and a Collectively not just lillies. Buddy on fertile area is all different types of Geo fights and seldom around the world and so today They're still species over there. In Europe in there's a society over over there that have used the leasing to make different types of hybrids increasing over there. So it's really interesting you'll see different types of colors and some that have fragrance at. That usually don't is crazy. So so tell us about your garden how how big is it. And how many and. How many lilies are you growing there? Yeah I garnish pretty small I live in California so it's pretty warm in the summertime and it could be pretty cold in the winter time so I have about lease Golly the Tin Tin Fifteen Then I usually get my lilies from plant cells or from C. Collection Accent that I have purchased either through The Lily Society International Society and the majority are impacts which my wife is not really happy everyday right which is so funny. I think that's that's cool but the reason why the impact is because my The soil that I have is is not on fast. Doesn't have a the best drainage and that's the the most important key for release on on that you have to have perfect vantage and I can create that through a container or a pot so oh delays that I I do Garden with our limpert. Lenin which is the easiest one I would say and I would have to Kinda though that out There because leaser not necessarily for the beginner gardeners. They are very temperamental. But that's what I love about them because It's almost like I'm raising up a child little bit if that makes sense because I have to monitor monitor them you know how how much water they get especially after the rain stops from seed until they flower which is amazing Reward if you if you had opportunity to do do that growing things from sees alone actually you know or a corn you know war Mazza Nita's anything like that you know and so are okay so it is hard and it takes time. Tell us about did you. Have you grown apart item from seed. Yes yes so talk about that process like how. How what did you prepare The the soil bed with DESCR. Yeah describe how the whole the whole process because it's it's a couple years ears right usually takes about a three to four years five years. Yeah so you think of it that way you gotta be really committed. Don't forget about them. Right so I usually so if one of my milley's has been pollinated produces fruit I usually captured the seas when the seeds ripen. I put in the frigerator the freezer until I'm ready. You know to fees the seat because the seat is still vital I have a medium him of soil of potting soil sand and lava rock a clean lab Iraq that allows change and put the seas either sometimes climbs on top or underneath a little bit of the soil. Both of those work in the fall right and I once the rain starts art. I'm I'm gone. I'm watching Netflix. I'm you know his like Bacon. Handle that wind. The rain stops though. Usually around around may on the nonce. When I'm out there watering the hub? The ceilings for about you know two two weeks Let them dry and then water them back and the tricky part is in the summertime so usually for for Wetland lease which the wetland lillies are apart align. The Lewis said you would find near the creek or on a a moist meadow so They can you know be watered usually once a week for the dryland. Lend lease once. The Summers starts in the rain is done. I don't water them And just once a month so for seedling. I have to be very careful because they're very young and I have to monitor them sometimes. So you just have to go with your gut. What what you're seeing you know when they become about a two years old I transferred them and to a bigger pot and usually They should be fine. I'd give him just a little bit of Fertilizer feeds them. What kind what? Kind of either Equal so everything should be equal. Tinton ten right Everything should be Kosovo. They're getting the same amount of minerals and metals as well in in the the soil for The lily part of line family. Which I think is the easiest one and for anybody who wants to start there please you you will be rewarded with that They loved to be sometimes crowded around a they have a abol that will continue on youtube build a colony or what I would call right by semantic bulb which is amazing that on the if the you know if your viewers ticked opportunities Google that the image of that is gorgeous. The bubble wound is just amazing on and it is forms as colony You can divide them every three to four years and plant them up again if you so you would like to. If you have a site in your garden that has perfect drainage I would do it to spe- Weary a of if you have gophers you can put a man go for basket. Yeah definitely if you're going to grow something from seed for four years put it into gopher basket people the ex exactly and sees a very expense really really cheap inexpensive so seeds could be two dollars players but for a bolt if you would purchase a bulb at nursery usually. It's about ten dollars right so they can get really really infringe share. That's how it would say it really expensive very dear yes very dear Or the drive in the lease as if you're cutting with those. They not necessarily have a resume. Matic Bulb Colony sometimes They can in have a single bold and they could be in that That state for about a good five years in my my experience agreeance Sometimes they have the little small little bubbles that her while bills that on the side of it Axel which it is? It's really fun to see those. Those are the hardest ones to deal with. Usually you won't find those in the nurses that often you might find seeds like of Lillian requests the Liam blander which are very gorgeous but really hard to to master the garden which I've had opportunities to grow those things in Luckily I mastered but I take it with cleanest halt uh-huh 'cause sometimes failure is Filial is its its neighbor. You know it's a part of the experience with growing lillies or anything like that caliber. So I I enjoy failures sometimes because it teaches me a a lot. Like the drainage was really bad or the drainage was too fast you know dried out Can I just trade this relationship with this garden. That has just really interesting. Some out there all the time you know there's moments where I'm just like okay. I'm tired I really really WanNa work something different and I. I have that opportunity to do that. You know let's get Kinda Dine. I'm just like okay all right. Let's go talk to you. Know Iris's or it is like raising children so it really is. Yeah Okay so when you started your party line fine him from seed. How long did it take until it? Actually germinated Oh. It's less than so I planted in the fall when it's a October and you would see it One of the first leaf So a Monaco. In March in March you would see that in March and then okay sorry sorry and and then how long does it take. Until that bulb is mature enough to send up a flowering shoot yet from that state right there. It would take a good good for forty five years. Yeah so what I do. I plant a lot a lot sees a different times too so I have for this year there about three different stages in my garden. I'm in Propagation Section so I planted get them back in two thousand sixteen seventeen eighteen so is always a constant you know turnover I would certain. Yeah and why is this important. Joe Joe you know I I I love I love the lillies. You love the lillies. They're they're pretty colors their their diverse. Why is this kind of passion and then advocacy to two with one another and with the general public? Who may not yet have this love? Why is this important to you into into the broader world? Do you think Joe Joe will. I'm just grateful that I am actually in a day and age or a time where I get to experience them and to have a sense of you've Preserving them not not just a lilies but the areas are rounded That's probably I I my takeaway from my experience with these lease is that I really appreciate the colors. They bring the the smell evening. Just even the Because believe it or not like the flowers only lasts for about like two weeks garden. That's like another you know two weeks and there's a whole lot of time to look at. It took me a while for me to appreciate that the guys it's It really opens up a world of clamp blindness. Being taken away from you. Yeah I guess if that's the right word because it does remove a layer of of does is not being aware of it. There's something there's a gym outside in the floors and it is a gateway for many people as well That was for me as well. So yeah is there anything else you'd like to add I would encourage people to Try I am out if you see them in the you know the plant sales. Don't be afraid in other so many information relieving the you know day in eight of information. So there's so many people who have worked with them and seem them in cultivation so don't be afraid and also take the opportunity to not just be like on your phone you know captioning all the photos but actually be the presence of of you know. Each one of them is really different. Even the same species I think Each one is really interesting and unique and beware of the animals that need that. Plant the butterflies all the different types of native bees. He's That living in the flower so be present in a That's what I would take away and most important thing. Thank you very much for being a guest on the program today. It's been an honor to speak with you. Oh you're welcome. I'm super happy. They got to talk to you. It's amazing love it long. Aw Gardner Educator Husband and Lily love her Joe. Joe Clark is a naturalist working on interpretation public engagement government and education for the Napa County Open Space district taking him to both state and county parks in coastal northern California. Join US again next week when we head to. Our nation's capital a lot of news is coming out of Washington. DC All the time but we're there for the gardening news and we'll be joined by. Cathy jets founder and editor of The Washington Gardner a magazine. An information hub for gardeners owners of DC Maryland and Virginia. I'll be speaking at a symposium on women horticulture and diversity at the Smithsonian Institute and and Smithsonian Gardens on March eighteenth of this year as part of my National Twenty Twenty speaking tour around my book the Earth in her hands seventy seventy five extraordinary women working in the world of plants. So I thought I'd like to get the lay of that gardening place in advance for more information on this and my other speaking dates and locations. Make sure to check out. CULTIVATING PLACE DOT COM forward slash events with more than twenty-six dates around around the country. This coming year. I'm looking forward to meeting a lot of you. In the places you cultivate I met the Sacramento Perennial Annual Plants Society on January twenty third and then up in Portland Oregon for the Hardy Plant Society of Oregon's Winter Lecture on January very twenty six. So Mark Your calendars. I want to meet you together. We grow made the New Year. Bring you and your garden family family. The presence and time for the deep and healing love deep an intentional presence that Joe shared with us. Today there are so in many ways. People engage in and grow from the cultivation of their places. Cultivating place is a listener supported co production of north state public public radio over excavating place dot com this week for your New Year's intention setting botanical. PICK ME UP CHECKOUT JOE. Joe Clark's six luminous photos of the lillies. He's met and some of which he's grown in his place here in California. Our show producer and engineer here is Matt fiddler. Executive Producer is Sarah Bohannon original theme. Music is by Ma Muse accompanied by Joe Craven and Sam Bevan cultivating place is distributed nationally by P R X public radio exchange. Do you hear cultivating place on your public radio station. You should in the next decade. May you ever enjoy the cultivation of your place. I'm Jennifer Jewelry. Thank you

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97. TREEDISTRIBUTION: shrubtastic reasons to plant

Reasons to be Cheerful

53:38 min | 2 years ago

97. TREEDISTRIBUTION: shrubtastic reasons to plant

"This as reasons to be cheerful with ED milliband Jeff lied. Hello hello sweltering isn't it. It's the hottest day of the hottest day in history the moment it's a climate look. I've got to come straight win. I've got a confession to make what is well. I didn't know how to put this but I've had another offer offer. I mean basically Theresa May's approached me say. COULD WE CO host political. Nothing's changed. I've turned down but I just didn't won't this to be sort of. I didn't want to hide it from you. Yeah and it's just it's an expression of my love for you. This is I've said No. You could have gone out. It's a double act strong stable because a few months ago I said if all goes wrong for you all great futures podcast associated to me and say maybe we could join up but I've said I've said she set up on her own. I'm GonNa give her all the encouragement. She didn't WanNa. Bring her into marriage three people in this. I think that'll be too complicated. I talked to today you you you went to Boris. Johnson's first debate was appalling. I can't tell you there was no redeeming features to it right right just missile of bluster and Bluff Orion buffoonery more of the same then yeah so here's here's a question. Are you allowed in the House of Commons on a day like today autism. is You allowed to go in and shorts and tee shirt if you want to know so. What is the dress code then well? I think there's some debate about whether you were tylenol really only that feels like we're in sort of titanic territory. I think really what about if you're wearing sandals. Would you be allowed in sandals ZANDER's Libya right. I didn't know I think everybody was so focused on the sort of do we find this slightly unbelievable happened. Yes many people have said it's like watching Chinga science fiction unfold in slow motion. I think is really a touch of that too as yeah I mean I it's like a Zombie movie as well with some of the people who are coming back from the dead testing the name of this calls to its limits anything yes okay okay. Let's let's let's move away from that and celebrate the fact that I bought a new fan and when is the same for you when you saw the Queen Kissing Hanzel abortions and catching the ball fine I didn't know until you're going to be grind and sales of that fan so was I didn't know until you said so right well. That's the one she had in the picture with Boris Johnson. I mean I bought it. Basically it was such a ridiculous price. I went to the John Lewis's yesterday to buy a fan because I was so hot yeah and there was so many people panic buying fans and that was the only one that was available to take away all the others. You'd have to have to wait twenty four hours to pick up and I could see a man I in up and just out of desperation. I put this ridiculously expensive van just so that I would have a fan right yeah and the you happy with it. <hes> not really I mean we just had we tend to the microphones but it was just blowing air enough aces. Wasn't it yeah so there you go well. We're powering through on wave soldiers that we are with powering on. What did it mean the eighteen th overall sort of should he situation we are powering on and this week's topic takes us away from Westminster and it takes us out into Nature Alternative Universe this week which will about trees and this is important trees can play a major role in tackling the climate crisis by drawing combine helping us to meet zero emissions but they have other benefits to they can cool down cities improve well being and boost biodiversity at the moment the U._K.? Has One of the lowest rates of tree you covered in Europe. Woodland covers thirty percent of the U._k.. At the moment the committee on climate change provoked increasing it friends of the earth all you we should into double it. We'll be talking to Emmy Murphy from Friends of the Earth about their proposal tree expert King of the Jungle Angle Rob Mackenzie will tell us about the science and huge experiment. He's running known as Scifi forest and that's why we cooling King of the jungle and then we're joined by Felix Finkbeiner who set up a tree planting campaign coal plant for the planet when he was nine years old he was aggressive Thunberg of his day and will be asked him about his idea of clumsy one trillion trees across the world and also. I have a little extra request to read out. We didn't normally do request but this one is a special one. This is a letter that I've been written by Cassidy Lemon. CASTA is nine years old and she sent me this letter dead Mellon. I've a beyond amazing idea national tree-planting day. You could get a sapling if everyone in London did it for one day. It could change the way we live our lives. You'll sincerely custody lemon age nine with a nice smiling face and that's brilliant letter I would say in a brilliant idea we could do it not just in London but across the country in the world on another reason to be jealous after after all the tree talk we are going to be chatting with actor Michael Sheen Yup about the homeless World Cup which is happening in Cardiff this week so I tell you my reason to be cheerful. These do my wrist which utilize the I was walking along the street in the heat. This week tells the phone and the guy turned round to me and showed me his phone and there was our logo he was listening to the podcast and he turns out to be a really nice guy called Ali he works in an advertising agency called the corner. They have these sort of fashionable names these days and he's written a letter saying like a Groupie be meeting his rock hero. I interrupted the commute earlier this evening Tomo listening to his reasons to be cheerful podcast and the so the reason to be cheerful about him was as two things one is that he was a against an intern or an apprentice at Virgin Radio in two thousand two and he remembers you and he said You were one of the Nice guys share <hes> he said that you didn't throw things shout or do any of those things and you will really nice person which I knew would be true so I thought was that warmed my heart that is a relief to hear he's also a park run but he does punk rock twenty minutes and what what are you currently on <hes> twenty-six and change him muttering so but he was really nice to me. mm-hmm we talk about the environment is maybe can do some work for something. I'm involved in around the environment. Was your reason to be cheerful well. I was hoping it was going to be that family but as I said it's just blowing hot air as so I can tell you about something. I've been watching on T._v.. Yup and it's just finished is available to watch on demand is the series called crushing which is a Sitcom about a stand up comedian in New York and if you think Oh God not another one this is different to any version of that you've seen in the past <hes> the the main character is so like committee's comedian called Pete Holmes and when we meet him at the beginning of the first series he's a born again Christian with this idea to go out and do comedy and it's about how his life develops that he meets the famous people and sleeps on sofas and that was sort of the original concept but it's gone on from there and the third series has just finished it's produced by Judd appetizer and it's it's really good. It's a lot harder to it but it's so funny as well and they've just wrapped up in the been three series so if you haven't seen that yet there is something to been jump for you and get away from the news reasons to be cheerful with Ed Miliband and Jeff Law. We're joined now by EMI. Murphy who is lead campaigner on trays it friends of the Earth and Professor Rub Mackenzie who is professor of Atmospheric Science the University of Birmingham and director of the Birmingham Institute of Forest Research. Hello both I wondered if we could start by getting you to just explain how because the U._K.. Is made this commitment treatment to net zero emissions by two thousand and fifty. I wonder if you could explain to us what role trees can play in the nest so much talk right now about action on climate and the fact that we need to take urgent urgent action on climate and one of the things we as friends of the Earth really pride ourselves with is the solutions that we have for people and government and trees is one of those nations and is just emphasize the fact that trees apart the package of climate action Shen that we should be taking about during in carbon yeah so during in carbon something that we call negative emissions which is drawing in carbon from the atmosphere and it also has a whole host of other benefits as well so we will be living in times of A. A bit more like flooding and heat waves and that kind of thing and it's unfortunate that that's kind of where we are right now but trees can help us provide shade like within urban settings and flooding and that's a flood prevention measures as well and is great for our well-being thanks as a whole host of other benefits with and combat and you want to just declare his friends of the Earth have an ambitious target to double the amount of tree cover in the U._k.. From Thirteen to twenty six percent which goes beyond what the government's official advisors the Climate Change Committee have recommended we have to be really ambitious. We're in this age where we actually have to start urgent action now and we feel kind of the nineteen percent of the committee and comic change have kind of given we really came for it to go above and beyond that so that's why we saying twenty six percent and it's also possible so we've done some illustrative scenarios on mapping and was his only England focus. This is possible so we're not going to be planting trees on crops so we will still have food and we cannot trees as well so there is land for that kind of very clever with how we use. The land kind of the runs in Scotland is already at nineteen. Yes which is interesting now rub. We are incredibly excited. We we all Giddy to hear about the site fi forest. Tell us about the sci-fi for us. which is your forest well? It's the forest I have the privilege of working in the King of the Scifi Forest King of the The jungle yes king of kings jungle. Yeah okay <unk> a live with that for the moment if there was a video link. I don't think I would quite quite much to anyone all your being two hundred page of a King of the jungle butts. What we're trying to do is provide some numbers to more firmly underpin the story that you've just had for Miami what it is the sci-fi forest sci-fi forest is a forest where we have put a whole followed of plumbing into an existing mature oak woodland so that we can gently leak into that woodland extra carbon dioxide so that we take parts of the forest patches of the forest into the carbon dioxide atmosphere that the whole planet will be in by twenty fifty so as modeling the future and seeing what role trees COMPLA- in absorbing carbon dioxide at higher levels significantly high levels and we have at the moment and what have you discovered well what we found very gratifyingly as the trees so far in the first three seasons of our measurements elements are able to continue drawing extra carbon dioxide when you when you offer it to them they're they're of course there's a kind of a balanced diet argument here which made us worry that as come dioxide concentrations increase and increase and increase they'll come a point when forests just can't make any use of of that extra resource <unk> plants use carbon dioxide for photosynthesis? It's the basis of all food chains <hes> but the but they need a balanced diet and we weren't worried that the forest we're looking at <hes> would not be able to make use of this extra carbon dioxide in fact we are finding is that it is he's making use of that carbon dioxide and it's making us to explore what at extra resources it confined below ground. Tell us about the other benefits of trees cool cities emmy sort of Kintu this cool cities wellbeing. Who was that part of your research shade element that amy mentioned is is very well attested and is going to be very obvious in the next few days because when it gets hold in cities you will find that the inhabitants the city hate for Parkland and they head for trees and get themselves into the shade of trees? You get a huge benefit from taking yourself out of the direct solar loading the direct ex- sunshine load on your on your person especially when you're bald head if you bowled like I am becoming that shade at is is a very significant benefit but of course it benefits very locally so we need to disperse doc benefits out into those communities which currently are very nature poor as sustainable urban drainage is something that engineers have worked on for a few decades now they know very well. It's very handy to have trees. He's as part of those green areas that just soak away the floodwater try and prevent these floods very flash flash floods that we get from having so much hard surface in our in our cities doc last element that any mentioned is a little bit more amorphous. It's a little bit more difficult to grasp and harder to get really rigorous scientific proof but there is a there is a greater and greater body of evidence the all points in the same direction as far as well being and can I ask you about how we get to your target. What does it look like? How do we do it? Where do these trees go very good question? We are proposing so when you go out of your town the city there's an area called green belts. I don't know if you kind of reflect back on a train journey that you've gone out of town or city and when you go right outside of it the land looks slightly. I don't WanNa say the word baron but it's just not that well used and some of it is farmland homeland and it's very very important farmland but what we're saying is around these towns and cities in these green belt areas. We can have some trees plants at their and is kind of lots of crew lots of trees. Lots of trees flaunted their that's in part as well. We've this kind of grading where it goes from one to five on soil and we're saying grateful poor soil conditions are k. for lots of trees and having them outside of towns and cities will <music> awesome mean that people can access it a lot better as well from their towns and cities because they want the nation or not people want nature on their doorstep again so it's a mixture of that and then on the uplands as well a lot is in Scotland at the moment but these uplands can and be also where trees can be planted which means that we're not kind of growing over like I said valuable food crops or housing developments but tree should be part of the landscape and that's why we really really keen to focus on the Green Bell in particular we say doubling tree cover it is possible because interestingly the last hundred years right after the first World War. We were on five percent of tree cover in the U._k.. And now we're up to thirteen percent. Your husband wouldn't expect people wouldn't certainly expecter yeah exactly some of it is for partly the wrong reasons of really important have the right trees in the right place. We don't want to be planting trees on a peatland for example which are huge carbon sinks the incredibly it'd be valuable for us and it's part of this package of natural climate solutions restoring peatlands is a separate thing that could help us on climate tall you yes yes and we should absolutely not replanting trees and then we should let them kind of be as they want to be the peatland area so it really is about the right trees in the right place and the last one hundred years. There's been some examples of where that hasn't happened. We want a mixture of trees as well. It's been quite love conifer plantations that kind of have happened in the past. We need to be a bit careful of that because they didn't put diversity and very much around mix wetlands which is really important rob. I assume you agree. We need to pull out more trees. What's what's your thinking well? I just would really strongly endorsed any he's just said actually the <hes>. It needs to be right in the right place. I suppose it really is that at mixed economy of forest we need to keep an eye on the jewel target of carbon removal and bio-diversity encouragement him because if we don't do that the obvious answer is to plant monocultures of very fast growing trees monocultures means just one type of creek area so diversity is the principal reason why we shouldn't do this. If we want woodland's to be ecologically resilient it is much better for us to have a diverse woodland woodland treescape by through through all of the U._k.. And that's simply because the more that we rely on a few species planted monocultures the more we are at mercy of pests and diseases coming in and wiping. Wiping the whole thing I leaving us no better off than we were to begin with so let me ask what I think is probably a bit of a stupid question but I'm conscious that we're trying to do this. At least the latest by twenty fifty but trees take time to grow is not an issue you how quickly we need to plum them. We are in a climate emergency so what we're Lu- seeking to do is to draw carbon dioxide in the atmosphere for the next few decades and trees a really good at that in fact act. They're the only technology that we know works at scale and they quickly can they and they can do it. Quick will yes they can do it over those decades and they do it over those decades because if if you put young plants into a grassy field then don't does young trees will grow very quickly. That's your primary way of drawing the carbon dioxide done will also gain some carbon dioxide benefit from thing called carbon dioxide fertilization nation which is what the sci-fi forest is is telling us not as that matured mature forests forest been around for a long time are also looking Kaanai sideline you know even now and will continue to not in the future so so they've done the sums that does work over some at some decades. Let's say half a century fifty years climate is up more than fifty years problem so we do have to thin uh after we've addressed the emergency we do have to think about what are we going to do with this carbon that is now in the wood of the forests and the sensible thing to do with that is to take some of it aren't carefully without disturbing the communist being locked in the ground. Take some of the stem side and use it in a way that doesn't put it back into the atmosphere especially to replace very high you see Yo- to emitting prices like concrete production for building obviously quite encouraging friends of the said if you double the amount of land can take out ten percent of the U._K.'s car and carbon emissions so it is doable yeah. It's doable from offsite. It's the government need to take action now really and stop property committing to I'm careful to say number of trees because we're really specific around tree cover governor number of trees because it's much more around the land that trees Iran rather than the number of trees because an old tree and a young sapling a very very different and the space that they have is just again the fact that the government really need to just make actual proper commitments and increase targets and how are they doing on that what they said not great so at the moment government have committed to increase tree cover in England specifically from ten percent to twelve percent by twenty sixteen so that's very very minimal and it's easy to talk about millions of trees but actually it's not a lot when you translate that into the way that it's going to cover land so that's why really keen to push that target as much as possible big job opportunities here I mean this is part of the argument is that this isn't just like. Let's save the planet of course we care about that. They're all these other benefits but also it can crystals of jobs for people presumably blunting yeah yeah yeah and also we call it just transition where farmers at the moment if they're funded right from the government level and from the council's level to do treat from deforming that will not only benefit them in the short term with kind of shade for crops and what have you but also in the long term of you know it improves soil health but they need to be supported funding wise with two. We hear this word re wilding bandied around a lot these days what is that and how does it play into this us so it's a different type of conservation methods if I say it like that so it's the way for us to leave the land alone in very very very simple terms at the moment. We don't have a lot of nature in the U._k.. A lot of species decline and by the lack of trees has been due to habitat loss and other other things I re wilding is basically I have some land I can beat this bit of land to let nature nature do its own thing creates ecosystems but at the moment because of the lack of nature we have in the U._k.. We'll have to have a bit of human interaction with kind of letting it become wide open it a bit contradictory victory and then and then leaving alone after a set number of years and I think that's dependent on where you're really at what you do and trees can be definitely a part of that picture rob. Anything drought owner definitely leads a helping hand because you will not get back to anything even even remotely wild from the starting points that the U._k.. Landscape is currently at its most ambitious involves putting large animals back into the landscape and for that you need largish areas <hes> and Steichen sometimes seemed like an impossible dream but ultimately the top predators what you want at because at the moment we have quite a lot of at large herbivores divorce in in and around our forests largish the DEA and they're viewed as just a just a problem because there's no way of managing them without us being involved that usually shooting the mind <hes> so it's about reestablishing publishing the food chain and that usually means ultimately putting in some dull predecessors like a wolf like a bear yeah while what's your top Predator Rob. What's your favorite top Predator quite keen on the links interesting emme anytime thank now? I quite like a cougar. I think that's interesting choice. We have a thing of the podcast called the Jefferson which is a utopia with me installed as a benign leader. I'm very tree friendly. I like like the shade so if I was to make you both what Minister for Forests Minister the Minister for the environment a dual role throwing shade yeah. What is the first thing you would do in office for the minister of throwing shade first thing I would do is increase the target massively from where we're at now open up land as much as possible and really push the fact that tree should be a part of our landscape if we're going to do some small steps at the moment weaving the realistic person that I am looking at the green belts and really having kind of like climate forests have year round those towns and cities and starting from there and getting everyone involved so communities from committee level to landowners farmers and government maybe my colleagues at that level at that point to really get stuck into not only planting trees and maintaining them and also making sure that we're doing other the climate action because very very keen for this not to be an excuse for offsetting but we need to slash missions as well as plant trees onsite rub while I suppose an academic judy bone to see the product my second action would be to make sure that we get the evidence properly underpinned and I think we have been as a country woefully neglectful of the Science of woody plants and woody plants in the Environment Sto- I think the first thing I would do is shake up the research councils and get them to work and a as a united body on this on this problem that faces us set up the second thing? The first thing I would do is really find. The mechanisms that will unlock at the concerns are assuaged the concerns that landowners have about this permanent conversion of land to forest excellent look. I think they both got the job Emmy Murphy and professor all Mackenzie King of the jungle. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Thanks very much on the phone now. In Zurich we have Felix Finkbeiner who is founder a plant for the planet Felix. Hello Hi Nice to meet you nice to meet you too and I wondered if we could start by talking about your your incredible story of how you launch plan for the planet this this started when you were nine years old right exactly I was a fourth. Fourth grader at the time and my teacher asked me to give a little talking my class about the climate crisis and when I prepared it I found out about Benghazi Matai a woman from Kenya who had started the movement where millions of women mm-hmm or hundreds and hundreds of thousands of women across Kenya plan to the tool of thirty million trees in thirty years and that made me think that we should be planting trees as well to tackle the climate crisis. That's why a few weeks later a couple of friends and I planted our first tree and we have that absurd goal of planting one million trees in each country of the world but I think that was just because a million was the biggest number we knew rights and I don't think any of us knew what <hes> how many countries he's even existed but <hes> we were incredibly lucky because two local journalists reported about our project and that's how some other local schools found out and started planting trees as well and then a slightly older student made a very simple website for which was essentially just a ranking among local schools of who had planted the most <hes> trees and that way <hes> lots of schools wanted to get to the top of the leaderboard went to out compete in neighboring schools and that's how plan for the planet's Brett after one year we had Atlanta about fifty thousand trees and after three years a million and then children youth all across the world are joining. This is incredible so literally went from a thing that was born of a school report you get your friends to start planting trees other local schools here about will have a bit of that and now you've somehow ended up running the United Nations trae campaign so do you WanNa tell me what specifically the trillion tree campaigners. Why do you advocate for one trillion nutrient specifically the now trillion compaign actually started off as a billion tree campaign? This was back in two thousand six before I even planted my first rate <hes> and it was actually started by our big hero of UNGAVA Ngati Matai <hes> together with the U._n.. And they have the goal that globally a billion trees should be planted and some governments companies and organizations around the world started planting trees and they soon achieved that goal billion trees than two billion entreaties and a total of twelve billion trees and that is unfortunately even when Vanguardia type passed away <hes> and that is when the U._n.. Asked us to continue leading the project so obviously this project had far outgrown. Its original goal all of the billion trees so we start asking ourselves. We do we go from here. What's the next step and in that process we had two very obvious question? The first one was how many trees even exist in the world and the second it was how many additional trees could be planted and we saw that these were incredibly simple question so we asked a couple of ecologists a couple of climate scientists but soon notice that none of them had any answers until we found a team of three the excellent researchers at Yale University in the U._S. and they did a three year research project fi and the first majorly important <hes> answer they had for us is that we have around three trillion trees globally so that's about four four hundred fifty trees per human and the second <hes> more important information that that team of scientists found out was that globally we have enough space to plant another one trillion trees. Where will these trays go? It took me about the effort that is required by countries and and you know which countries will need to do more than others. I mean what what sort of land will they be taking up or is the answer in every country so this paper I just mentioned created a global map of all restoration opportunities so these areas that could support for us right so we're not suggesting planting in desert or anything like that but these are all areas that used to be forced in the pass in a not currency for us right so these areas that can support for it and then there's researchers deleted all areas that are currently used for agriculture or for settlements or so on right so none of that we wouldn't win upon the agricultural being competition with agriculture and then they ended up with a global map <hes> of potential restoration area and <hes> the map shows that all continents <hes> and Moose countries around the world have areas that could be restored short. Obviously the biggest potential for restoration isn't necessarily in Europe but rather in Latin America <hes> in Africa and also Southeast Asia and <hes> the reason why these areas are so important is not just because they have a lot of area that could be restored and that are not currently that's not currently used for any other <hes> purposes but also because <hes> when we plan trees and tropical parts of the world the trees grow a lot faster and and because of that they absorbed far more to every year than if you plant a tree in Scotland I mean this has grown far beyond how it started which was people planting trees this would need a lot of effort and commitment from from from governments. How'd you overcome the challenges of that this cost and getting the political will to do it? The political will actually already much more advanced than I think most people would expect <hes> over sixty countries around the world and these are especially African American countries have made plans of what force they want to restore in <hes> in that country for instance Tanzania is one of those sixty countries which announced that they will never store five million hector's <hes> afforest in Tanzania so there is that government buying the government sent to be very enthusiastic about tree planting not just because of its impact on climate but also because of all the wonderful benefits to the local population because if you restore for forest that <hes> tends to <hes> regulate the the water cycle which means that agricultural yield and to improve their obviously lots of benefits on biodiversity and so on and they create a lot of wealth in in that local area because the jobs created in the tree planting and also the resources that come with these fourth so the government buying is already there the biggest challenge now is funding we need to get big amounts of money invested in tree ponding and <hes> to help with that we've actually we actually in the process of building up <hes> which is called plan for the planet the past versions already available for the for the iphone and android phone where people can discover tree planting projects all around the world pick their favourite product and then support them directly so it's really a very simple process. We only need people that are willing to spend some money on tree popping and tree planting also a lot cheaper than I think. Most people would expect <hes> planting a tree cost. It's just about a year on average. This is no good for me to go out with an ankle in this afternoon and just drop it somewhere. That's also valuable right everyone. If you plant a tree in your backyard that's off the great and you can also go ahead and register in the APP as well as a little contribution but you can also <hes> if that's not possible for you simply go on the APP and find these project and then donate a couple of pounds of them so they can plant them trees for you and it. Is there a country that you can point to so <hes> they are doing a great job on this and we could learn some stuff <hes> from them. The Chinese government <hes> is a great example China. I think discovered a lot earlier than most other countries <hes> how important force are especially especially the this really started in the seventies and they noticed that they had actually destroy lots of <hes> of China forest and they started to <hes> restore quite a bit <hes> tryst. They made a lot of mistakes not processing monocultures but in recent years they've been doing a really the amazing job. Mexico has been investing big sums of money in the in the last few years as well <hes> in in Europe. I think Norway is the best example because with no always been doing in in in the last few minutes offering <hes> Mon- money to countries around the world to protect their for the no way for instance went to the Indonesian government <hes> and gave them a billion a billion dollars <hes> so they they would do a better job at protecting their rainforest. We have a thing on the podcast which imagines the U._k.. As a futuristic utopia with me jeffers the benign ruler if I was to appoint you minister for trees. What is the first thing you would do in this country on day one I think there's two things first of all I would give money to Brazil and to other countries with lots of rainforest in exchange for them protecting <hes> therefore there's nothing more valuable than that and the second thing is I'd make it mandatory? For British <hes> British companies that they make themselves carbon-neutral right that means that these British companies need to reduce carbon emissions as much as possible as fast as possible but obviously those British companies can't go from in two zero emissions within a year doing the meantime they need to compensate their carbon emissions by planting trees similar product around the world famous. It's an incredible story what you've accomplished already and I could just tell that this this this is just the beginning of this really. It was so interesting to Felix Finkbeiner founder of plant for the planet. Thank you so much thank you so. What did you think well? I think it to some extent is seems like the science is is in the early days of the trillion trae stuff but nobody is arguing that tracer a bad thing trae these anti-tribal. We've found what unite the nation I think so I mean it's just if this works is potentially massive and also since by mid to go out and plant Nikon. Let's good yeah I I think is interesting. Is How much of the time do you spend thinking about land in the land that we use that say between a third and three fifths of my time so really that's interesting. That's quite a big margin yeah yeah yeah. Sixty per se can really from one day to the next you'd be most. I think we don't think about land we we basically take in land for granted. Maybe not maybe not in relation to housing but in terms of the way we use land so non housing land which just don't we just don't haven't thought about agriculture farming. What should we be doing all of those things and I think it was good about this debate? Whether whether it's about we should be more less meat or planting trees that we we are. We are forced to think now about how we going to deploy Alan. I was quite taken aback by the you know what we talked about about looking at the train window and if you go from a bunch of grain don't want you won't see a lot of his just nature so cultivated land. I also think it's as you said it's it's inspiring and like who who's against it. I mean not even Boris Johnson's against Rees because we don't want to take listeners for granted and if you are anti-trade if you really fucking hate them then you can email as reasons that cheerful podcast dot com emails reasons cheerful PODCAST DOT COM follow us on twitter cheerful podcast also facebook page reasons to be cheerful podcast. We're thrilled to be joined on the hottest day of the possibly the hottest day in British history from Cardiff by Michael Sheen in Hello Michael. I believe it's the hottest day ever recorded in the universe. You're a Harry man like me. How'd you cope with this kind of thing as an Harry man? I'm I'm fortunately I'm sitting completely naked. We are going now. I'm just braiding all my hand. Curiously in the sunshine in Cardiff Yeah heads talk about the seventeenth edition the Homeless World Cup which is taking place in Cardiff from July the twenty seventh to the third of August. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what it is the history of it and how you can be involved in it yeah well. I involved through. I was doing soccer aid which I did for eight to ten years. I think <hes> which was about raising money for you in the south and through this big soccer match would happen every couple of years England against the rest of the world in which fulfilled a my footballing dreams Wilkin out in front of eighty thousand people at Old Trafford playing alongside people exhibiting to them which was amazing. I'm what I was doing that one year. An Organization called St Full Wales got in touch with me <hes> amazing geico Kerry Harris Race who's been money in that and he said aware where a grassroots organization <hes> we set up football tournaments for people who are dealing with homelessness or social exclusion <hes>. I'm we'd love you to get involved and I to be honest. I didn't really get it. I thought why are you spending money on putting time and energy into putting on football stuff people with homeless issues why not just deal with the homeless issues. I didn't quite get it and then I realized the brilliance of it which is that the football is the Hawk football is what the people in and then once people are starting to play football. <hes> I'm turning up they start to make friends. They stopped to make social connections. You know a lot of these a lot of people who are involved in some of the most excluded homogenized people in our community and the football allows you access to them to connect with them in ways that would be very difficult otherwise <hes> something people who have been judged and stigmatize so much feel like part of a team they belong to the family of a lot of people you talk to describe ah on and then over time you start to get a bit more self-confidence you start to get a bit of pride again but pride back <hes> stop to feel a bit more motivated around health and wellbeing in that kind of stuff twice soul through stretchable Wales sales how transformative this could be using the power of football to break down these sorts of barriers. I'm give people a chance and then threw being involved. I became a patron of as and then I heard that every as homeless World Oh Cup and spiteful bewails the organization that supplied the Welsh teams men's team women's team every year to go to the world the World Cup wherever it's being hosted that year that's an umbrella organization called homeless will cut foundation and they sort of look after roll homeless World Cups. I'm take bids you know like any other big event like this on a award the the host nation each year and so <hes> about straight was in Oslo. I think it was in two thousand seventeen in Oslo and I went with the teams to that and and I just saw it kind of changed people's lives you know traveling with the wells teams seeing them traveling abroad for the first time and representing their nation you no you can see the effect that that has on people. I'll never forget I was sitting in the stand watching <hes> one of the matches with a woman who was on the Welsh women's team and we were just talking and she was telling me about how she'd been imprisoned. She come out prison. She was homeless must fulfil years. She had addiction issues going on which he was struggling with at that tournament and shunting children for a long time she just go and play and she took a tracksuit top went down onto the onto the pitch that unplayed for the women's wells team and I watched her school the first goal she had episode for anyone ever while and she scored it four Wales and I can see the reaction that she had she just spun and spun and spun and then suddenly she was back into the game you know and and I've stayed in touch with the ever since and I've seen how it's changed a life in oh now she's <hes> she's. She's on top of our addiction issues. She was actually the mascot so we've got this mascot for the homeless World Cup Kohl's flame or Flam in Welsh a Welsh dragon and and we went to visit a school the other day because a young landed won the competition to name the mascot for almost woke up and was last she was inside the Moscow and it was brilliant to see just to see how life has changed around this and everyone a story like that so when I when I was there Oslo I could see what a brilliant thing this was just taking part in it is transformational the people <hes> but I also saw the opportunity for it to be a platform for what could happen after the tournament <hes> and that was is when I started to think I really WanNa try and bring this to Wales <hes> and to be a part of putting this on giving people this experience but also to engage with the public with local authorities with Welsh government Westminster government service providers funders does and trying to find new collaborations using the tournament as a platform for the legacy afterwards so that's the kind of work that will put an end to it and that's why I've been so committed to it. That's where I was going to go next Michael so it's it's it's a it's a homeless World Cup but it's obviously league in your vision for what's going to be happening. I and on the date is going to be going out. You'll they'll three to five days to go until the final on Saturday the third of August it's it's a it's a big festival isn't it of politics and and tell us about that aspect of it yes officer. You've got this fantastic football tournament happening for a week so it Saturday to Saturday July. Twenty seven twelve stood in Buke talk next to the Costner's a free event. It's not ticketed so it's first come first serve. Everyone is welcome that so as well as the tournament itself <hes> we've also got the music festival side of things so we've got Welshman's the best of Welsh fans both Welsh language on English language. We've got people like <hes> James Dean Brownfield from the Manic Street Peaches Jazz Regard Charlotte Church. WE'VE GOT WE'VE GOT UTAH schild from bulky psychotic monkey as a fan of go cookies yet <unk> right. He's yes so you also get invited. We're kicking off with you on Monday night. <hes> and down we've got buzzard buzzard buzzard who are the we've written the official song for the World Cup as well which is fantastic Daffodil so that'll be happening in the in the evenings and then we've got the Bevan tent which is where all the debates and panels awesome toll podcasts stand up comedy because Sara Pascoe coming down to do some standup floors we got the guilty feminists coming in doing that podcast from that. We've got shreds coming into in their podcast. <hes> we've got all kinds of fantastic things going on so people can come down and engage in whatever way they want to you can watch the football listen to the bombs come in and get involved in the debates as well <hes> so I think it's GonNa be a fantastic experience. Regard over five hundred people come in from fifty different countries to take on <hes> represent their nations so I think it's going to be just. I believe that he's actually happening. It's being two years now since we made the bed <hes> and now that it's actually getting I've been welcoming teams. I've been down there on the site and it's just amazing to smile about how this fits into your social activism because you and I have worked together on this issue of high cost credit <hes> companies like brighthouse the charge very high prices. We'd be some legal change range <hes> credit unions but but it's Paul you'll sort of life at the moment well not just at the moment is part of your life now. Isn't it that you're doing acting but you're also doing lots of this work yeah well. I suppose I mean I. We've talked about this before but I suppose it you know when you get a little bit of celebrity as as an actor or you know I'm sure yourself as well as you get asked to. Come along and get involved with things when you come down to have a photograph for this. Will you put your name to this. Will you be a patron of whatever so I started doing more and more of that kind of thing and then I started to sort of look into what was going on in different communities not just in in the South Wales area that I come from. I'm not just whales around Britain and even internationally I was looking for things people organizations project systems that would be really effective in communities particularly communities to add in some <hes> socio economic challenges. I'm on and through that I started to hear certain the things come up again and again in on one of the things that I started hearing more and more was about the idea of people struggling the debt on a lot of the time in the sort of communities that I know in back at home <hes> the that debt was coming as a result of getting involved his with high cost credit in payday lenders rental owned companies and that kind of stuff. I'm when it got to the point where I was hearing that story not just coming from people I was meeting in communities but coming from friends and even family members of mine I I started to see that this was a really really big problem and and and so I started looking into a why this was happening on why people weren't better alternatives by white people were able to be exploited like there's some way certain communities immunities were were more risk of exploitation than others and you know even though issues like homelessness high cost credit <hes> even local journalism in Oh things that seem quite separate in some ways actually they're. They're all connected. It's all about people at Farah deal. You know white wire certain people are having a harder time than other when through no fault of their own I'm coming from the sort of background that I come from from Pelvis and the South Wales communities that I suppose it just makes you Kinda feel like well. The people who come from these places I know less deserving than people who come from quite affluent areas that maybe I'm filming in at times you know <hes> I it just seems like you. I know the people that I the the people in the community I come from. I'm lazy aunt her no on last deserving of opportunity than anyone else so what's wrong with the system the that seems to be rigged towards certain communities on against others and so we came out of that really it's about looking at what what is holding soon communities back what is stopping certain communities from having the same opportunities as others. I'm what can be done about it. We have a thing on the podcast. Michael called the Jeff. Oh Chrissy. She is where my colleague Jeff is a he says benign rule and I have said the folksy looks rather less absurd today than it yesterday given <hes> given who now go leading us as a country if you if he sort of gave you complete carte blanche if I made Michael Prime Minister Yeah I've offered it to you but you keep threatening to stage a coup so to Michael first thing that you would as you look around Port Talbot or the the people that you deal with the other places you talk to. What do you think the country needs most of all what would be top of your list well? I think you complete Cobb launch in these power. Jeff Jeff is a very okay hands off. I'm well I suppose party I think there is there is overlooked engines of change in this country in a lot of the places. I visited like I talked about going and looking for what is what what's happening. That's effective in communities. I'm one of the things that I that comes up again and again is that often the person who is at the heart of something effective going on in the community is a woman over the age of fifty. That's the first thing I think women over the age of fifty are neglected engine of change for this country. They're often women who are not getting paid for what they're doing. It's a lot of it is voluntary or if they are paid paid very little and they go over and above you. You know what what will not pay is is supporting <hes> they're all the most connected within the community they <unk> totally compassionate but also real light engines of change like real dynamos <hes> I'm on often being stretched to the very edge of what they can cope with emotionally and psychologically so one of the things I would do is try and give the support to those women across the whole of Britain I because there is an army of change that goes over locked unsigned well best of luck to Wales in the homeless World Cup. Can I kind of puts it to you that your support for this is almost entirely for altruistic reasons but you there is a little bit of you. That thinks Wales are GonNa do better in this football tournament. Perhaps another football tournaments listen if ample whales was going to win it. It's this year I also want. What wants gray is well? Is that the way that the tournament works is a so that you know nobody tons turns up on the first day losers and goes home. It's done in such a way that the traditional method of getting to the final winning is that but also what happens is everyone saw themselves out into kind of sub tournaments as it goes along so that everyone gets to play until you know right up to the end so I also also say I guarantee you. The whales will be that on the final day Michael Sheen. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been brilliant and everyone should go to the homeless World Cup fantastic. Thanks guys reasons to be cheerful with ED intimately bound and Jeff Long Time Yup. I'm searching for optimism and you can tell from my mood so I felt like I needed to tickle you when you arrive today. Your mood seems quite black so twenty five years ago <hes> this year I remember being Liberty Conference. Remember Tony Blair gave that calls full speech and it was whatever people think it was seen as a great triumph and somebody said to me that evening nothing is ever as good or as bad as it looks on the day right right I mean I think that's the problem with that sort of phrase. It's not country percent true true in every circumstance but I think there is sort of you know. Let's see how this all plays out darkness only lesson nighttime in the morning it will fade away. Daylight is good at arriving at the right time. It's not always going to be this way. All things must pass Joe Terrorism the darkest hours before all these things yeah yeah yeah suddenly pretty dark our ready grasping really grasping the doctors for the optimism this week we bet you I'd like to thank Emmy Murphy Raw Mackenzie and Felix Finkbeiner and thanks to Michael Sheen.

football Wales Boris Johnson Michael Sheen Europe Emmy Murphy Scotland Felix Finkbeiner England Jeff Jeff Theresa May Professor Rub Mackenzie Cardiff Michael Oslo official
Nature Gardens At The Natural History Museum of LA County

Cultivating Place

56:50 min | 2 years ago

Nature Gardens At The Natural History Museum of LA County

"This is cultivating place conversations on natural history in the human impulse to garden from nor state public radio in northern California. I'm Jennifer jewel this week. We visit a remarkable public garden in California during California native plant week the nature gardens at the natural history. Museum of Los Angeles County are testament to just how much one garden can do where once a parking lot sat stay with us, the landscape architect and museum staff. Collaborated very deeply on the original planting a pallet for the entire garden. It was master planned and every plant that was chosen to be a part of this garden was chosen for a contribution that it would make to providing habitat. This is cultivating place. I'm Jennifer jewel in this hour fifth but not quite final. Listen for more information towards the end of this episode in our five part series on our gardens as habitat, and we gardeners as powerful land stewards and bio-diversity protectors. We visit a remarkable public garden in California. It's California native plant week the nature gardens at the natural history. Museum of Los Angeles County are testament to just how much one garden can do to turn back time and help restore habitat even in downtown LA where once a parking lot sat Barron an overheated. We're joined today by native plant expert, Carol Bornstein, director of the nature gardens and by Leila Higgins, senior manager of community science there. With hard data collected over the last seven years and huge hearts for this work. They bring us up to speed on what the nature gardens and the habitat they provide can offer to us all Carol and Leila. Join us today with the help of audio producer Joanna clay from the nature gardens. Welcome Carole and Leila. Hello. I I'd love to have you both start by restating your job title, and tell us what that actually means in your working life day today. Let's start with you, Carol. I'm the director of the nature gardens here at the museum. I also oversee the the museums live animal program. So I joke he like to tell people that I'm responsible for the living things here at the museum as opposed to all the the dead specimens that we have in in our collections. There's no typical day, really. But a fair amount of. Time will be spent out in the garden communicating with our head gardener and some of the other members of the garden team just addressing what's going on with the the plants in the in the collection itself. Interacting with many other staff with regard to how the the gardens are being used of for educational purposes carefully for some of the research work, just all sorts of different collaborations that revolve and spin off of what's happening out in the gardens. Yeah. What about you? Leila. Hi. So I'm the senior manager of community science which some people refer to as citizens science about a year ago. We changed the name not everyone is a citizen who we want to participate. I'm personally, not a citizen of the United States. And we also were approached by the community and asked to change the name. And so that that's the rationale there. But the. Definition is the same regardless of whether you call a community signs like we do or citizen science, and it's getting the general public involved in answering real research questions and are real research questions or what's going on with nature here in Los Angeles. And that's not just in the garden, but all over the LA southern California region. But now that we have the garden it's an amazing field research site for both are scientists work in research and collections. I have a degree in entomology, so insects are among jam. But I love I realized that I wasn't going to be a hard science researcher. I realized I needed to communicate science to people, and that's what gave me true joy and getting to help build this garden here at the museum. It's just so amazing coming into work and seeing kids around the pond like literally getting their feet wet following chasing a butterfly getting to see birds up-close or them crawling through the wormhole in. Dirty zone. It's it's something that gives me like tangles every day. It is a it is an incredible garden. Carol will you describe the scope of these gardens that were we are talking about an a little bit about their history that how big are they when were they I put in. Why were they put in? Well, so the guards are roughly three and a half acres, and they took the place of a couple of parking lots and some rather mundane landscaping fair amount of lawn and not not a whole lot else. And the idea came about during the process of doing some major renovation to the the museum itself earthquake retrofitting the old historic wing and some of the galleries throughout the museum. And I wasn't here at the time Leela can speak to this perhaps more detail. But the the idea was to take the museums work, it's research work, and it's. -cational programming outdoors on our own property and to use the space the outdoor space as part of our our mission based work so becoming a museum of nature and natural history. The museum staff they developed a team of of biologists and educators, and that's where Leila came in wearing both hats at the time and worked with meal and associates local landscape architecture firm to develop the concept for the gardens and to help to construct them. And the goals were were multiple. They wanted to build something that could be used as a field site for conducting research also for many educational program opportunities for nature play because so many people who live in Los Angeles. Don't have the opportunity to have some type of connection with the outdoors. They they don't get to the beach or they don't go to the mountains. Nhs their school yards may be more asphalt than anything else. And there was a very strong belief that we needed to provide some opportunities, whether it was a first touch for nature or giving people a chance to just move along that continuum and become better aware of more connected with nature that is around them and also to serve as a demonstration garden of what they might be able to do in their own space and last, but certainly not least to create habitat for wildlife in this urban setting Lindy one adds something to that. So I've been at the museum ten years. And when I first got here and heard about this project, and I was like, oh my gosh. How can I start working on that? I have a master's degree environmental education, which was paired with my entomology undergrad degree and was like this is going to be a really powerful space for many of the reasons Carol outlined, and as a person who grew up on a form in England and got to run around playing hall trees and pretending to be a badger and chasing butterflies down a country lane. I felt really really compelled to help make a space where people can have experiences like that here in Los Angeles safe natural outdoor spaces where parents could bring their kids and kind of the parents could sit down and relax and kids could get their hands dirty in compost and climb on a tree stump and chase butterflies. Maybe. Okay. Maybe they also. Oh can pretend to be badgers. But American badges note European badges? But I got to work on that literally had started in December of two thousand eight and then halfway through two thousand nine I got assigned to the nature gardens project working with the head of exhibits at the time, Karen wise and found myself as the most Judy person in the room with the president of the museum and head of our construction company listening to the pitches from all the different landscape firms that we're going to possibly wanted to work with us. And then we selected Mierlo layer at associates, and I was just like how my in this space and an in getting against the whole completion cycle and then hiring on Carol and the now having a full complement of garden staff and seeing kids and adults out in that space. It's kind of just like a magical thing, it is magical thing. And I wanna go back to Carol for just a second before we get into more of the science being. Done there, Carol as really one of the premier native plant experts in California, especially in public garden space, your whole career has been dedicated to to this kind of work will you describe for people the kind of range of plants both implant types, and maybe how many species you have. And just like, what would we mean when we say were planting for habitat, give us some tangible names and faces to that. Well, I I'll just start by saying that the the gardens are not an entirely, California native composition, there are exotic plants here. Although most of what people see when they come was part of the overall planting design, very very little of what remained prior to the groundbreaking is on the property, but there are some exotic species and those reflect part of the fabric of the. Urban landscape that exists throughout Los Angeles. And that was intentional to make it be accessible in a visual way. That people could relate to some of the plants that were already here that they do see around the city, but I'd say about two thirds are California native plants, and they range from local native species of plants that you might find along the natural reaches of the Los Angeles or the San Gabriel rivers. So right Perry in vegetation such as a Royal willow, the California sycamore oak woodland, primarily we would we have coast live oak. But we also have a few species of other native oaks on the property. Lots of Toyin, which is the official Strub official native plant of Los Angeles that absolutely thrives in this garden, several different kinds of CNN 'thus and man's anita's coffee berry and. Currents and gooseberries. So there's a quite an extensive array of Woody plants, but we also have a lot of native grasses Perennials. There's even an aquatic component. Because we have an unnatural Listrik pond that is populated entirely with California native plants and the Hollander meadow actually have to pollinator gardens one that is exclusively California natives a mosaic of grasses and annual and perennial wildflowers with a few shrubs for structure around structure, but we also have an a'mixed Hollander garden that is a more formal in presentation to appeal to people who might not like, you know, the the less tidy look that the the meadow a presents in addition to all of that there's also an edible garden that doesn't fact have some California native plants mixed in partly for their in secretary benefits. But. Also because some of our native plants definitely have an edible component to them. That's a kind of a general overview. Yeah. And there's roughly six hundred or so different species and cultivars in the garden, not including the edible plants and the annual wildflowers so for the snow barely size. There's a lot of plant diversity a lot of impact. When I was last there. I think the the Wildflower meadow mosaic area, you were referring to was just getting started. And with this great bloom year going on can you describe that a little bit for us shirt? Yes. It's in bloom. It's it's probably the most dynamic part of all of the nature gardens other than the changing annual beds in the edible garden because of the composition of the diversity of plants that are there, and the fact that it has. It has definitely evolved since we planted it. It was the the last section of the garden to be installed. The meadow originally had a lot more annual Wildflower component to it. And over time the bunch grasses have naturalized and taken up more of the real estate. So there are probably there's less of the ground plane of annuals, but there are more of some of the other plants that we landed such as the desert APR ikat and the Indian Mallow and the annual sunflower some things have just been super super happy in that location. And we have let a lot of things just evolved on their own trying to take a to some degree a bit of a hands off approach and let things find their place. But at the same time, we are we are still managing it just in that description alone where you have the, you know, really Connick. Canopy trees of the sycamore and the oaks there and all the way down to the to the native bunch grasses. There is this beautiful and wholly Representative plant communities there which would allow for a lot of year, round, observation and information collection. So I'm going to move to you Leela and have you talk a little bit about the different ways that you are incorporating both community science and hard science with all of that opportunity throughout the year. Again, we were very excited about this garden opening and even before it opened. We started surveying the space with our scientific staff. We had this group that we call the habitat team. And I was one of the lead content educators on that team. But also had. A science background. So was able to work with an across the science to education side of things, and we have been doing a lot of field research out in the space. So we have our Tamala gist out there putting up Malays trap. That's been up since the garden has opened animals trap for those of you don't know it's like almost like a tent, but for insects that fly through the environment, and they get caught on the piece of netting. That's there. And then they are tracked into flying up to try and get away they fly up woods. And then they get cold in this jar, which is filled with alcohol, and yes, they do parish. But we take killing things very seriously here. We're only doing it to to help our understanding of the planet and to hopefully, make the planet and our environment, especially here in Los Angeles better for humans and for wildlife. So we. Found hundreds and hundreds of insect species in the garden through that Malays trapping projects and our staff and volunteers sorting through those insects inside of our nature lab exhibit. So the public can come in throughout the week in the weekends and get to see volunteers and work study students from USA sorting through those insects, and we have a microscope setup. So they can see them up close and see some of these life forms that are flying around in also even their own backyards, but are something that are so small and so tiny the people don't get to see. So we've had three hundred and five species of insects observed in the nature gardens through this logical survey to split that up nine species of dragonflies, damsel flies which mostly relying on the pond because dragonflies and damsel flies lay their eggs inside of water. And so their babies live on the border of putting in that wall. A source really helps to increase the bottom versity in relation to the dragonflies. Dams of is we have fourteen species of butterflies in a found in the garden. Nineteen species of flower flies, also known as a hover flies they are pollinators forty five species of scuttle flies. So these are in the true fly group there also known as humpback flies because they have this very large hump behind their head an-and, sixteen species more than sixteen species of bees, and then thirty four species of beetles, which Beatles, my favorite order insects. So very excited to see so many of those in our age gardens, and then beyond the insects. We've had four species of reptiles amphibians found there was a turtle dumped in the pong. There was a American bullfrog dumped in the pond. So those are species that we've seen were not necessarily very excited about having them in in the space. They are again invasive species that have. Wrought havoc around the world. But then we have to species blizzards have shown up and there were not really lizards in the space before the gardens were built seventeen species of mammals, ten species of sales slugs and one hundred seven bird species are. Yeah, it's amazing are one of orange haired the museum Kimball Garrett he has lived in Los Angeles his whole life. He grew up playing in the Hollywood hills all birds around and he scored a job here at the museum and has been here over thirty years. And since the gardens opened he has been going out weekly and he's done two hundred seventy nine bird surveys. He seen twenty two thousand six hundred fifteen individual birds, which represents one hundred seven species I wanted to just add something about all these creatures. None of that wildlife was intentionally brought into the garden. There's only there's only one animal that we. Intentionally introduced in that was the Arroyo chub, which is a native fish that. We actually had to secure a permit in order to release it in the pond, and it has been so happy that the initial seating of maybe twenty five to fifty or so fish has now turned into many, hundreds if not thousands of fish, but everything else, you know, that we have been documenting has arrived on its own accord. Although as Leila did say a couple things apparently were deposited in the pond that we pre mmediately removed. Carol Bornstein is director and Leila Higgins, the senior manager of community science both at the nature gardens of the natural history. Museum of Los Angeles County in downtown LA, the three and a half acre garden was conceived and planted in what was mostly as volt parking lot. The natural history museum is LA's oldest museum building and the present day anchor of an emerging cultural educational and entertainment hub in exposition park. Natural history museum. Visitors are awed by extraordinary specimens and the stories behind them. In addition to sharing the history of the planet. The natural history museum also explores a more local transformation, the outdoor nature gardens and the nature lab. Look at how environment and people past and present interact in LA the unifying. Theme in these indoor and outdoor experiences is the interplay of nature and culture in Los Angeles and the world the gardens put living nature into the life and science of this historic natural history museum. We'll be right back after a break to hear more. Hey, I've had so many wonderful comments and notes about the impression this habitat series has made on all of you and me to how it's opened your thinking and inspired your own gardening at this time of year in particular. You'll hear more about this at the end of this episode. But I just couldn't help myself. I added one more episode to what was supposed to be a series of five. It was too hard to stop because in reality all gardens are about habitat right there have tat for us for our sanity for our wildlife, and our plants and well engaging in life, more, fully and richly on all levels. It's because of you donors out there that I was able to put my head around curing such a series and the forethought planning scheduling in communicating. This involves so thank you to each and every one of you who showed up as donors as well. As listeners we have a lot of new ideas here at cultivating place, and we need listener support to help us out. If you wanna be the gardener to our garden, please consider making a tax deductible donation by clicking on the link that says support in the upper right hand corner of any page Eckel debating place dot com, while most people give us a steaming donations of twenty dollars a month. Kenny size or one time gift goes a long way to make these important conversations possible. Thank you. Now. Back to our conversation with Carol Bornstein and Leila Higgins of the nature gardens at the natural history. Museum of Los Angeles County. This is cultivating place. I'm Jennifer jewel. Welcome back to our conversation with Carol Bornstein and Leila Higgins of the habitat intense nature gardens at the natural history. Museum of Los Angeles County in downtown LA. So that was one of my questions when when you referred to frog and the turtles being dumped, these are non native species that somebody came and just released without permission into the environment. The turtle happened during construction we did have a camera trap on the pond of time camera trapping is something else that way, we do in the garden to help to collect data and we saw some construction boots coming in the frame, and then the next day turtle was in the pond. So it was a rhetoric slider. It's on the top one hundred species list of invasive species that is on the red list way had somewhere live animal staff. Oversee the removal of total and rehoming wanna go back to all of these wonderful numbers of bugs, you were giving these three and a half acres of gardens went into a place that was basically just as fault. It was just paved over and more or less, and then these gardens come in you've been what I understood from what you said is you've been collecting this data on the insect and other life in the gardens for all of these years or a great many of them since the garden was planted. We're hearing all the time right now about how fresher are insect life is in the world. And it's decreasing numbers. We don't have data from before the garden was there. But in theory there clearly weren't, you know, damsel flies and dragonflies because there was not water. So are you seeing trends of upward and downward? Are you what are you seeing there? And what does it say to you? So the Malays trap that I was talking about is one of well, it was originally in the first ration- of this research product, which is called bio scan which stands for biodiversity science city nature just run by our Tamala staff here, and Dr Brian Brown are Tamala just he's a fly specialist, and so that Malays trip in our nature gardens was one of thirty that was all over the city of Los Angeles and through. Those traps they discovered forty three species of of these flies that are brand new to science not new Los Angeles. But brand new no scientists knew that they had existed on the planet until our researchers looked at them and identify them. Yes. So this is real science happening. And in two other flies that he looked at in that sample one had never before been found in Los Angeles. Edit only been known to exist in Europe, a third one also never before found in LA only known from the east and west coast of Africa three scientific discoveries one new species, and then to range expansions we found to date is they're working on publishing a lot of state. But so I don't want to preempt them on that. But what Carol Annan other people have been saying plant native plants plant native plants, and or climate appropriate plants, and you will increase by diversity in your space. I think for Gardner. There's maybe our greatest joy in life. E is this idea of making. Gardens that welcome all of these creatures even in a small space and being able to make that difference. Just feel so hugely helpful to me and hopeful to me, given what we are seeing worldwide in terms of declines of these creatures that we we rely on them for everything and we harm them at our own peril. So with that in mind, I wanna move back to Carol. And you know, we talk about habitat nor garden's very generally, but you can give us some really I think beautiful specifics, perhaps on ways that you have as a plant person thought about the habitat needs of these, you know, many different species and said, you know, maybe this is their larvae. Food. Maybe I'll plant this this is there, you know, this would be great nesting material for for hummingbirds. Maybe I'll plant this has there been a kind of intentional planning for the support of the different life stages of some of these creatures mean, I think the the most common when we hear about all the time. Of course is the milk Weeden and the monarch or you know, for us the pipe vine and the Aristo Kia with the pipeline swallowtail butterflies have had there been other examples like that that you can share with us wherein, you think that long term for what your plants and your final relationships are doing together while they the short answer is. Yes, that that was definitely intentional the team that of Leland. I mentioned of the landscape architect and museum staff. Collaborated very deeply on the original planting. Palette for the entire garden. It was master plan and every plant that was chosen to be a part of this garden was chosen for it. What a contribution that it would make to providing habitat also to be compatible with our Mediterranean climate here in Los Angeles, and to be to survive on fairly low water over its lifespan, not everything has worked for one reason or another because guards, of course, are grand experiments in and things don't number one live necessarily live forever. And we're constantly editing and changing trying to honor the original intentions, and when new plants are brought into the garden. They do need to pass muster with that same goal in mind to provide either a food source, whether it's through the flowers or the fruits or nesting material or shelter as far as specifics. Well, there's a plant from. Baja California Mexico. Culver Beena, Lila seena that. One of the things that people do like about that. And it has become very popular year in central and southern California is that blooms almost all year long has lovely purple flowers that happen to be fragrant adapted to our dry summer climate here. And it attracts a quite a diverse array of butterflies, so from skippers disqualify sales monarchs so that is one that is popular not only for its beauty. But also for its attractiveness to butterflies, the native sunflower, I mentioned that earlier I've been delighted by how happy it is in our garden. But also the fact that not only do native bees neck, visit the flowers when they're in bloom in late spring early summer, but as the seeds ripen, then it provides a wonderful food source for gold finches, they will just hang upside down and just feast away until they. You know, get disturbed by something and fly off and then of Chile return. So that's a plant that that that gives in multiple ways coast live oaks and oaks in general, you know, have a reputation of being fantastic habitat. Plants. There's documentation that oak trees provide some type of support to over five hundred different creatures of wildlife at some point during their life. Whether it's a food source or nesting or shelter. And so we definitely see an awful lot of activity among the many oak trees here in the garden Ciller of few very very few examples. I remember when I was there being really taken by the bat monitoring equipment that ill had down by think by the pond area. Well, I I know that we've documented I think it's five. Species now. And I think that the reason that we are seeing that kind of activity is because of the fact that all of these plants are providing some type of food source for insects in the the bats visiting to eat, the insects and Leela can probably fill in more detail about that. Yes. So the person who puts up the bat detector is Miguel Oriana he works in the community science office. He's also an urban cone of researcher an Mamool gist. So we've had a bat detector up for number of years in the garden. We have one two three four five species of bats that have been detected. We've got the big Brown bat red bat hoary bat pallid bat and Townsend big eared bat, one of the other things that the again, I keep mentioning the pond the pond is a great resource for bats, not what was people would think it's because of all insects that live in the aquatic environment. And then emerge. Urge as adults and these flying insects are then food source for bats. And you'll often see that's fine. Ovo waterways around Los Angeles at dusk. And it's a really beautiful sight to behold, and you're like, you might be eating any of the mosquitoes that a flying around right now and bats so that was one of the things like we have to have a pond, we have to have a pond, we have to have a pond known only going to add all of this diversity and habitat for these species that really rely on that quantum environment. But I've done a lot of ponding with children. And so taking kids out to the edge of the pond hitting them Annette giving them a even a simple tool like a plastic smoothen and a ice cube tray. They can then sample for the macro invertebrates in the pawn, and they get to find things like two strikers and Dragonfly. Larvae and dams affi- larvae, and we don't actually have very many mosquitoes upon which is an tastic all the Orioles job undoing their job eating eating them. Lots of other insects like may fly larvae we found some pita larvae living in the pond as well. Beyond the pawn. We also wanted to make sure that we added habitat value in addition to the plant, so we have be hotels, we put up out there. And I remember working with some of our exhibit team with some old pieces of wood Brian round or Tamala just had in his backyard, and we drilled hundreds of holes into them and put them out, and we're so excited when we saw Ie's moving in these a solitary bees, not the, you know, honeybees that live in these giant, colonial groups, so they're much less likely to Singley solitary bees, and they move in. And they lay their eggs inside of these holes and provision them with pollen sacs. And then the babies hatch out and get to eat Napolitan. There is inside there. So that's that's really fantastic things that get provisioned with spiders or actually wa-. So we have we have areas that we let go muddy and then wasps come and collect the mud from those little edges of the muddy puddles and make little Ness on the side of the building. We've also left lots of area is like bare sand because their ground nesting sand SPS in the ambiguous which have these beautiful green eyes. You know? That's not something that most gardeners may be no about, but yet if you want to have these beautiful wasps, and again, these are solitary wasps, so they're not gonna be out there trying to sting us. Humans like yellow jackets are and then added bonus for those mud Doha's. You know, if you have any phobia of spiders there they as part of their life cycle they need to vision their their their nest with those items for their babies too. In this fifth episode in our series focusing on the important role. We our gardens can play in supporting bio-diversity in this world. We're speaking with Carol Bornstein director and Leila Higgins senior manager of community. Science at the nature gardens of the natural history. Museum of Los Angeles County in downtown LA the gardens were designed and planted by Mia layer and associates a firm now known as studio M L A in two thousand thirteen in collaboration with science and education. Staff at the natural history museum specifically to re introduce native habitat, by way of water rocks. Trees other plants and soils for the native wildlife of Los Angeles to return, the resulting insect reptile, mammal and bird diversity. Making this oh Acis garden. Their home is reminder to us all of the power. We have to create habitat for all on our own patches of earth. We'll be right back after a break. Stay with us. Okay. So thinking out loud. Here you want to know what I'm loving, the very most about this conversation with Carole and Leela it's this. We're speaking so little about pollinators now that might sound like a funny thing to say, but if you've been listening to these conversations in this series, you might have picked up that my feelings are this when we talk about habitat and biodiversity loss. It's not about one subset of life animals, we humans, call pollinators. We don't need this issue reduced to a sound bite. We are fully capable of grasping both the nuance and the complexity of the damage we have done to these living systems and our capacity for helping to restore balance. And it's not about us doing this because it benefits us as humans that the loss of pollinators will severely impact our food. Ops. For instance, we care, and we can act based solely on the fact that it's the right thing to do the problem. We've created is not simple and the answer is not simple. But it starts simply with starting from where we are doing what we can to not only change our actions in decisions, but to increase our own understanding and wariness garden variety everyday actions from the ground up. It is about the monarchs in the hummingbirds and the honeybees, but as Carol and Leila demonstrate it's also about lizards, and spiders beetles and bats, it's about flies and sand wasps, we might be preconditioned to be scared of, but which are in fact gentle, and they had the most beautiful iridescent is and they have an important place in this. Well. Of life that we're one tiny part of we can do this. We you and me gardeners, we most especially can do this. Now back to our conversation with Carol Bornstein and Leila Higgins of the nature gardens at the natural history. Museum of Los Angeles County. This is cultivating place. I'm Jennifer jewel. Welcome back to our conversation with Carol Bornstein and Leila Higgins of the nature gardens at the natural history. Museum of Los Angeles County in downtown LA, you know, as home Gardner's in in you have both sort of reference the idea of the garden serving as demonstration for other people to see what they can do. And clearly not everybody's going to be able to put in a big pond or plant an enormous oak or even planned to small oak that's going to become an enormous oak. If you both of you had sort of one to three things that you would say to listeners as to what you would love to see them do in their gardens to move in this direction. What would those with those three things being let's start with you. Carol. Well, that's tough. I've thought about this a lot. I guess maybe the first thing I would suggest is to if you're using any kind of toxic chemicals in your garden to just stop doing that the statistics about the use of of herbicides pesticides in this country is a very alarming, and in my opinion. It's it's unnecessary. And we are managing this garden using organic practices, and we are not using toxic chemicals at all and we're not using synthetic fertilizers either. So I would encourage people to just abandon those practices because that is killing both beneficial as well as the occasional pests that might be visiting your garden and allow natural natural predators to help come and provide some kind of ecological balance in whatever size garden, you might have. So that I think that might be my first suggestion, certainly incorporating some Nick, California native plants into your garden, if you don't already, and if you're space is really really limited. I would concentrate on those that are as local as possible to your area. With the expectation that those would ideally be the best adapted to your site. That isn't always the case, but more likely than not they would they would hopefully be better adapted than something from tr- SU super far away as many of your listeners Nell, California's incredibly diverse state with over six thousand species of native plants and not all of those are going to grow well in your mediate area. So try to narrow your scope. Releasing chemicals using native plants, regardless of the size of your garden tried to incorporate different layers vegetation. So that you're providing habitat for as wide in array of of wildlife as possible. And by that, I mean plans that cover the ground in your kind of a blanket on the ground mid story as well as some type of canopy because different species occupy all of those different zones, and that not only adds to the visual interest of your garden. But it definitely will also nurture other forms of life to a appreciable extent. So I have to add one more, and that is some type of a water supply, even if it's just a tiny little dripping Byrd bath type of setup at that has everything needs water to some degree, and it doesn't have to be exuberant or expansive, but just a little bit. We'll go a long way to supporting life. What about you Leela? Okay. Get rid of your loans as much as you possibly can especially in southern California habitat value, basically zero I'm not saying don't have any loan. I totally see them as a great place for children and dogs to maybe play or laying down on for a picnic or taking a nap in on for all those things but as much as possible frequently drive by and you see people not using the loans for ninety nine percent of the time. So yet rid of his much loan as possibly feel it. You can outdoor cats are really destructive unloved cats. I love my friend's cats, but they kill so much wildlife. Lizards birds insects, even and I know that's really hard for some people here. But that you can have. You're happy. Indoor cat you could make an outdoor cat run. One of the women that I do a lot of work with a huge advocate football life. Here. Nelly. Susan gottlieb. She has a lovely nice big cat run outside. And so and she has hundreds and hundreds of hummingbirds visit her house, but that Cameron allows the cats to be outside the birds to be safe, and then Leslie, Carol mention the no pesticides. I'm going to get really specific one kind pesticide not dentist sides any rat poison the being put out they can be really destructive going up the food chain getting all the way even to in are amazing mountain line p twenty two he was suffering from mange had to be captured and administered medicine, and that's that's directly linked to rodenticides. And so that's something we're really trying to fight against here in Los Angeles right now. And getting that to be something that the. Adopted across the city, and hopefully Ross the county, and hopefully other cities counties will follow suit. Is there anything else you would like to add? And I wanna remind listeners that there's this amazing opportunity coming up the city nature challenge is gonna be able twenty seven th through the twenty nineth for survey shin period. Get your smartphones digital cameras out take pictures any plant or animal in any city. That's participating and that's a project that I helped to star in co-founded when someone from California academy sciences, and it's a competition between it was originally for years ago. L A versus San Francisco, which cine can find the most ager in the hundred forty cities around the world. Lots of cities in the western United States LA and San Francisco a long standing rivalry. Help us beat San Francisco. I just remembered one thing or new book while I'm one of the co-authors Carol was one of our scientific advisers. We have a whole we have twenty five field trips around LA, the nature gardens is one of them. So on vine, okay hero. Anything you would like to add in terms of the the plant in wildlife connection to the plants that I didn't mention it all that are really kind of should be at the top of the list for providing capital are the buckwheat s- the area games and Bacchus so buckwheat ZIM backer as have been huge stars in terms of the the insect diversity that they support how many different species of buck weeds. Do you have in the garden and our their lists of plant and plant species that you have in the garden up online under on the website. We don't have it online. I do. You have a plant database, and you know, we share it with people who express an interest in it. But it's not live. I can roughly say that we have probably seven or eight species of buckwheat in the garden. I'm really glad you mentioned both of those because they are such for one thing. Great season extenders, we are very close to our time. So I think I will move to is there is there anything else you would like to add maybe speaking personally to some moment of beauty or engagement in the garden that you could share with visitors about, you know, not just the wise. But not just the like you should. But the this is why it's so powerful to you personally. Well, I could say that for me the time that I spend not only in this garden, but my own garden brings me joy just by virtue of seeing the beauty that plants that are thriving provides and the support that they also provide the the dynamic between the plants and the wildlife is just a constant stores of. While inspiration, beauty and pleasure. It's it's part of the fabric of of our landscape in. I I don't know how I came to. Appreciate that. Exactly. I I've been gardening since I was a child, but I don't really think I paid that much attention to the wildlife. It was more the plants initially and over time I've come to appreciate the connection. Between all of these different living things, and how they how they change over time to me that is I think one of the most interesting aspects of being a gardener and the happy surprises when something does what you don't expect it to do, and that can be a wonderful thing in of itself, the problem solving aspect of being a gardener realizing that not everything is going to work the way you want that there are going to be failures. But they'll also be a lot of successes the willingness to you know, the willingness to fail and to to try something new, and it's always changing. That's what I love about. What I do that. It's it's unpredictable, and I really appreciate and value that very highly. What about you Leela? So for me, it's really going to see people in this space engaging as the manager of the community signs program like getting right before this interview. I went onto I natural. Which is the platform we use to help documents nature in this garden space, like how many species observations have been found documented by people who visit the museum and some of those people coming to our programs. Some of those people are kids in you know, some of our kind of like nature clubs, but some of them are just general visitors who maybe don't even get a personal interaction with. And so I looked that up. We had over two hundred seventy two people submitted three thousand seven hundred ninety seven observations which represents five hundred twenty eight species in that garden space up. And so seeing the power of that data set that has been collectively created by many most of those people are not scientists they're not they don't have undergraduate degree or master's or PHD in science, but they are out there and they care enough to take a photo and they care enough to submit. And so we get to see that data. And then get a better understanding of what is here in this garden space, and that's really powerful to me than having those personal interactions in the space will ink out, even if I'm just really rushed in Woking to meeting will through the space and see a group of schoolchildren kind of running joint smiles on that faces. And then when the they realize that they're allowed to kind of put their hands in the pond and failed at pond Volta and the teachers like, yeah, okay. Go ahead and just like this exuberant joy on those faces that feeds me feeds, my soul and shows the true power of the space. Thank you. Both very much for being guests on the program today. It has been a great pleasure to speak to you both and learn even more about those powerful gardens. Thank you, a pleasure to be a part of this series. Yes. Thank you. Carol Bornstein is a California native plant expert and the director of the nature gardens at the natural history. Museum of Los Angeles County. Leila Higgins is an entomologist educator and senior manager of community. Science at the natural history. Museum with hard data collected over the last seven years and huge hearts for this work. Carol and Leela are just two people in a large team working to increase support and learn from the nature gardens and the habitat they provide they provide that habitat to us all humans and other wildlife for more information on the nature gardens. Please see the museum's website at N H M dot org where you can follow the data collections and live cams that Carol and Leila were telling us about placed out in the gardens. You can also check out their new book co authored by Leila on which Carroll served. A science editor it's called wild LA exploring, the amazing nature in and around Los Angeles. As they say alligator lizards and free flying parakeets are just the beginning. While this was meant to be the fifth and final episode in our deep dive series into our gardens as important in sustaining habitats for the wildlife of our native areas, and we gardeners as important stewards of bio-diversity. I just couldn't help myself. I have extended the exploration to one more episode because it fits in so beautifully. You might know of the iron. Rush plants woman and garden designer Mary Reynolds from the movie dare to be wild of which her surprising gold medal winning garden design at the Chelsea flower show and her passion for nature in gardens is the focus or you might know her as the author of the garden awakening in either event, I think you will really enjoy hearing her garden life journey and her concept for gardens as arcs of hope for wildlife, the globe over join us next week for that cultivating places a listener supported co-production of nor state public radio for more information and many photos from the inspiring nature gardens in Los Angeles. See this week show notes under the podcast tab, Eckelt availing, place dot com. Our engine near skyscraper field. Original theme music is by Mark muse, accompanied by Joe craven, and Sam Bevan cultivating places distributed nationally by p r x public radio exchange until next week and joy, the cultivation of your place. I'm Jennifer jewel.

Los Angeles Leila Higgins Museum of Los Angeles County California Carol Carol Bornstein Jennifer jewel senior manager Leela director United States Natural history museum researcher museum of nature Carole Acis garden head gardener producer
01-13-20 Australias lesson on fire management

Native America Calling

56:30 min | 1 year ago

01-13-20 Australias lesson on fire management

"Walk into native America calling from Studio Forty nine in Albuquerque. I'm Tara Gate. Would the devastating brush fires in Australia have captured. The world's house attention years of drought. An incremental damage from climate change factors as the country rises from the ashes. We can all stand to learn more about found ways to prevent similar devastation coming up. We'll hear about traditional land management from an indigenous perspective including preventable controlled Burns. We go live right after national. Native News This is National Native News Antonio Gonzalez in Canada hundreds of people marched in Vancouver and Winnipeg over the weekend to protest. I Natural Gas Pipeline Project as Dan Carpenter Chuck reports. They're also supporting a first nation which is fighting the pipeline one march went from the British Columbia a Supreme Court Downtown Square. The anger is over an injunction order last week that gives people at a protest camp seventy two hours to allow construction workers to do their work. Coastal gas leak which owns the pipeline has deals in place with twenty elected. First nations councils along the pipelines three hundred and fifty mile route however it does not would have the support of hereditary chiefs which have authority over the broader territory in Winnipeg. Protestors held a round dance in support of the opponents of the Pipeline Solidarity Ladera across Canada and across North America. That we're here to show solidarity our relatives and our people and to also hold count ability And transparency to RCMP. We're watching and we will take action and we will always be sollidarity with our relatives no matter what until the end last week. The United Nations Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination called for a halt to the project. It said the project does not respect the rights of indigenous people and the Provinces Human Rights Commissioner supported that saying there are arbitrations to ensure free prior and informed consent for all impacted indigenous groups before such projects impacts their lands for National Native News. Burn Carpenter a county. North West. Montana is no longer transferring patients from the Indian Health Service to other hospitals county officials say the. IHS owes nearly two million dollars for ambulance services dating back to two thousand fourteen and are now suing the federal agency which it says can't count verify. The county's claims Aaron Bolton Explains Glacier County Commissioners cancelled the county's contract to transfer patients from the blank feet community hospital and Browning to other hospitals for additional care last month saying the agency failed to hold up. Its end of the deal. IHS IHS says it has been working for nine months to substantiate the roughly one point eight million dollars worth of claims. The county says went unpaid between twenty fourteen thirteen and two thousand eighteen. The agency says the county was not providing proper documentation for it to do so the county now hopes to settle the dispute dispute via a lawsuit in US District Court. The county filed its suit on December seventeenth arguing that it can't provide proper documentation to support it's claim because IHS didn't produce that paperwork when it's doctors requested ambulance transfers. I just declined to comment on the court court case the county is asking the court to order suggests to immediately pay the one point eight million dollars in question with interest. A request for comment meant was not returned by the Glacier county attorney in time for this story four National Native News. I'm Erin Bolton a second native American. US US presidential forum is taking place this week hosted by the voting rights group for directions. All candidates running for president are invited to the event Tuesday and Wednesday in Las Vegas Biggest Nevada as of Monday. Five candidates were confirmed the first forum took place in Sioux City Iowa in August focusing solely anita issues the Navajo Nation Attorney General and lawyers for the tribe or holding meetings in four New Mexico Navajo communities this week impacted by the two thousand fifteen gold king mine waste spill which devastated farmers and ranchers in the four corners region. The tribe has filed a lawsuit against the Federal Government and a separate lawsuit for individual claims Antonio Gonzalez the national native news is produced by Broadcast Corporation with funding by the corporation for public broadcasting support brought by Ramona farms offering wholesome and delicious foods from our heirloom crops as our contribution to a better diet for the benefit of all people we are honored to share our centuries sold farming and culinary traditions online at Ramona farms dot com support for law and justice related programming provided by Hobbs Strauss House Dean and Walker L. L. p. a national law firm dedicated to promoting and defending tribal rights for more than thirty years more information available at Hans Strauss dot dot com native voice one the native American radio network. This is native America calling. I'm Tara Gate. Would the devastating brush rush fires in Australia. Continue to burn. They've taken the lies of at least twenty-six people an estimated one billion animals. They've scorched at least one and a a half million acres of land. The fires are renewing the longstanding debate over the best way to manage lynn to try and prevent such widespread devastation. Indigenous people in both Australia in the United States have traditional practices of intentional burning but our experts and policymakers listening into the traditional ecological knowledge of indigenous people. Today we'll talk with fire management experts about controlled burns on their traditional territory. And we WanNa know what you think. Have you experienced forest fires in your own homeland. And is your tribe working to manage. The land traditionally phone lines are open. The number is one eight hundred nine six two eight four eight is the number and joining us today. Out of Portland. Oregon is Bodey Shaw. He is a northwest Deputy Pity regional director of trust services for the Bureau of Indian Affairs and he is a member of the confederated tribes of warm springs. Our pleasure to have him here for another one of our programs rams bodey welcome. Thank you and Also here through skype from Bell Rat Victoria. Australia is Gary Morgan. He is as a principal consultant for global wildland fire management services. Our pleasure to have him here Gary Welcome Tara and thank you in so a lot of people are really concerned with the fires that are going on in Australia. Especially in our indigenous nations Definitely have seen a a lot of people Talking about this online and so we wanted to definitely given update of where things currently stand. And so Gary. I'm going to start off with you. Tell it's a little bit about worthing Stan and of course how much this has impacted indigenous nations. Certainly Tara. Look this fire. Season is being laid in by woolen. Normal temperatures the hottest year on record and the driest arrived year on record For All of Australia in every state and territory the flaws of mainly in three different states. Kettering in Yeah New South Wales Victoria and South Australia that burnt. Now between the fifteen million ike is So that's SORTA spos- roughly eighty percent of the equivalent of eight percent of the state of Washington or more than state of Kentucky Normally people would expect. It would've been bit avast. That wasn't the case. Listen half a percent from US and the rest is naturally literally induced fob by lightning And there have been going in New South wiles full two and a half months sir one four so this we've got a an ecological disaster But there is solutions and we can talk about that too indeed into Gary very reasons why these fires seem to be so bad right now. Is this combination of poor. Land Management and the lack of prescribed burning and Laco following through on traditional learning ernest burning principles and title disregard for Good Land Management of the forest estate and climate. Change has been blamed as the cause does. Climate change is certainly adding to the ferocity of these wildfires But it's not the salt 'cause and we clearly. The the message should be there that we need to do. More land management prescribed burning for hazard reduction and the unfortunately you love the politicians and some People from more. The Urban Five Auditing Brigades sighing. We need bigger and in better aircraft and money has been provided for more aircraft but on many of the days when the major runs the ause Teiken Oleic the aircraft on the ground because to the winds too strong and it's too smoky to operate safely anyway in in so when he comes to. Aboriginal Communities I know that many different aboriginal people have stepped up and are fighting the fire along with others anyone. Can you share about the work that you've done with aboriginal. Firefighters in land managers certainly The the the traditional liners Across Australia Bank such a large country and Different digitization tops. This continued to be the traditional burning in the northern part of Australia and particularly in the Savannah country and in fact a lot of traditional artists Utilizing the benefits of doing burning up there to gain Carbon credits and receiving money to do so Helping get the land back into its natural state rather than doing like Boone's is an early burnings of the forest using modern and techniques for helicopters as well not just doing it all by the ground But as we moved south and you go down to the southeast and pot of Australia Ran Victoria and Tasmania traditional burning practices. It totally died out. I've lost generation or two and we're trying to reintroduce down the and we have Traditional liners as ranges in the forest And and we are trying to get back using the principles. We can't do it. Exactly the way used to be done in the past to remember that the traditional additional ernest where he of burning a forest for many thousands of years and European colonization. designee could could I the last couple of Sainsury's and It has really forced a policy of stopping thing falls rather than putting more far in the environment to prevent fires and So I always have the feeling that This time to the part of our is when you really need to go out there with a a woolen jumper on rather than a helmet on your head. Choubey young yet locking the Fawzia in the cooler months. What's and then you died? End Up having to go out and fought the pause with a helmet on your head in the hot weather. And I'm wondering to what some of the reasons it's got to that point where it's die down and I know you've mentioned colonization in what happens when indigenous people are saying. Hey we need to do some of this. Is there pushback that comes to you here in the states. What about in your own community Traditional burning methods. Are you practicing them. We're going to hear a little bit more about some of the things that are in place But your thoughts go ahead and join us one. Eight hundred nine nine six two eight four eight is the number we are go ahead and hear about some of those that are right there. A fighting on the fire This is Vanessa Cavanagh. She's in aboriginal from the Bungee and yelling One Ria tripe and she was a firefighter and is now getting her. PhD focusing on Aboriginal Women and cultural burning here. She is on the good fire. podcasts talking about her traditional views on burning my family my aboriginal me and my parents and the brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles and elders within our community who would talk about far in a different way. So you know. Even though I was formally formally trained as a fly fought I also had the belief systems that were found it on a relationship with country and that fire was hot hot. Oh fat and that. Because I grew up on acreage with my mom and Dad had bought acreage when I first got married. We had acreage to manage. Which and Practice Aso so we will always burning that landscape and mom and dad would talk about all we have to go and burn over here because the this part of these paddocks dirty or this bushier is dirty? We have to clean it up in that again with Vanessa. Cavanagh in Aboriginal Firefighter N. P.. Ahd Student in Buda hearing some of Vanessa's words and understanding. We have that obligation to the land will rethinking. Well thanks and you know a number of ideas come to mind especially when it comes to those traditional owners aboriginal or tribal here in the United States. It's we've been discussing with our elders for for decades about trying to get back to when fire was put on the land land at specific times specific reasons and that timing was so critical I'll use from the northwest travel perspective huckleberry huckleberry as as a traditional food we. We're starting to lose that. But we were able to start to incorporate fire back into the ecosystem A vaccine species or the huckleberry itself is can be reinvigorated when we do put light fire fire on the land. Much as I'm sure. Vanessa's talking about G- as Gary was alluding to it's so important that we're able to get back to that. But Gary also pointed out we have to be cognizant of a changing climate. It's not as simple as maybe our Our parents grandparents great grandparents. Excuse me one hundred years ago when we were able to put that fire on the land. It's a little more complex now It has its own. Set of difficulties has many fire. Practitioners his tribal folks who are listening today. completely understand We continue to move in that direction but a variety of complexities that we have once once again to be cognizant of thank you for that body Shell on the line with us today From the Bureau of Indian Affairs also a member of the confederated tribes of warm springs and on the line from Bell. Red Victoria. Australia is Gary Morgan. The principal consultant for Global Wildland Fire Management Services. And we'RE GONNA get deeper into this in here What a partnership that has even gone from our tribal nations here in the US to aboriginal nations? There in Australia all of that is coming up but again we are inviting you into this conversation and maybe you have some understanding of traditional a fire burning methods in what about adapting them to our environment today any thoughts one eight hundred nine six two eight. Four eight is a number We know there are many in our need of nations WHO stand up and volunteer to fight? Fires Maybe you're listening to and you've been watching what's been going on in Australia Any thoughts you can share your thoughts by calling in one eight hundred nine six two eight four eight is the the number we do look forward to hearing from you and Bee's phone lines will stay open so go ahead. Make them ring Northern tribes have long ice fishing traditions. But today this board has also evolved into an economic endeavor for Tribes Boreholes and pick like ice and drop a baited Hook in some large rectangle and wake with a fishing spear learn more about tribal able ice fishing on the next native America. Calling native native Americans affected by domestic. Violence can call the strong hearts native helpline offering free confidential support and resources. Strong hearts takes calls from anyone hurting in their relationship or who may be concerned for someone else available seven. AM TO TEN PM central time seven days a week at eight four four seven seven native. That's eight four. Four seven native more at strong hearts helpline dot. Org Program support by the National Indigenous Women's Resource Center. You're tuned into native America calling interrogate. What from misled a Pueblo and we are talking traditional fire management today? Does your tribe do prescribed burns call us and share. The number is one eight hundred nine six to eight four eight With us today is boaty. Shaw and Gary Morgan Gentlemen. Thank you you for being here with us. And let's talk a little bit about prescribed Burns You're talking about sometimes that gets a little pushback. Anything you WANNA share about that or maybe even Conversations that are coming up right now with what Austrailia is facing shaw. Oh Tara At Sei that landscape scale hazard reduction burning as a modern bushfire mitigation tool. He's really something which uses all of principles of traditional liners that is bad putting five back into the environment and the the forestry proficient over here in Australia has been doing that since the nine fifties and trying to Manage the land skype side. that it doesn't have the fuel build up to a live away again to have high intensity walled ause Wall pause which which have huge impacts on animals birds and reptiles and fish even Let alone having impacts on the the human population in the infrastructure infrastructure and and over here at the state some commentators in the media outlets promoting the view that broad skull hasn't reduction burning Over for us is the answer to stopping disastrous flaws and there the olives who don't show that enthusiasm and are opposed to the practice in the defending spending the climb Saying climate change and that no amount of has had fuel reduction would prevent those flaws in in fact by views carry degree of truth but also exaggeration. Not even the biggest waterbombing aircraft Can Stop the head of a major while that's burning under extreme conditions It is self evident that they will hazard reduction though any cannot stop the full would spread of a very intense bourgeois. Who you know the behavior that stages in driven by extreme with patents rather than the the high fuel load loyd however it is reality that about ninety five percent of walls burn under moderate conditions? And that's when the behaviors promptly primarily driven by the fuel lines in the forest and the intensive those five it can be substantially mitigated if they have reduced fuel lights from previous has obscured action burning so the primary values reducing the forest fuel. Loads is at an enables. PA Part is to move quickly and control. Mice fall is with this area being saying but it's clear that most of the huge ause we are now experiencing it either here where initially burning under mild conditions conditions and it is apparent that the reduced fuel lights in the forest would've assisted for Potus to control is vase. Before the onset. The dangerous fallout where the conditions. Which stand my these files on controllable? It makes it makes a lot of things connect in into Stephen Thinking about You know how the damage could have been less in exactly what you're describing in You know when you you think about that here in maybe Bodey you truly understand about pushback or even just seeing the benefits of being able to clear those areas he is so that when it does when it when a large fire does come through. There's ease and even the safety of the firefighters a body give us a view on how awesome you know taken or if there's ever pushback when tribes or tribal nations are saying it's time to do some prescribed burning glad body thank you terror yes And as we've actually addressed on native America calling in years past when we do have those catastrophic wildfires there's especially in Indian country. We get the politicians attention. They seem to be engaged. But when the smoke leaves. And that's when it's incumbent upon US UH says the federal leaders to tribal leaders to keep pushing this ball uphill. It is important as we see an have for the past century a century the Of Pudding every fire out it has tremendous negative impacts. And that's what we're trying to right that wrong tribes I think are very well positioned Russian and I'll use the northwest tribes here in North Western. US that are very active very aggressive. They have engaged aged tribal leadership tribal elders and have really tried to pattern those preventive measures fire prevention as an example Free Suppression Burns has fueled reductions as as Gary was. Mentioning tribes are very aggressive Tribal resiliency is something we try to do. We Fund very specifically and it is about proper forest health community health But it can't be done in a vacuum and I think that's the Nice thing that Garry has has brought to this is this really is a globalization issue. It's not myopic to just our own travel forest forest really is a global initiative when it comes to addressing fire fire impacts catastrophic fire. And maybe we'll talk a little bit about that later but I'm very proud of what our tribes have been able to do when we accomplish. Our are prescribed fire hazard fuel reductions because it does make a difference and I think car travel members and maybe those listening may want to chime in and the benefits that they do see by continual annual practising of of a hazard fuel reduction and I think that is so critically important. Thank you for that in coming up in our world. We're GonNa hear what is going on in the Kudlow Dr. What about in yours? Give us a call. One eight hundred nine six two eight. Four eight is the number and body. Something is going on. A connection between indigenous richness spaces Tell us a little bit about the. Bi Exchange with Australia. Yeah and I'm very happy to have gary on On the line Gary has been a leader With the US and Australia New Zealand connection for a number of years. This isn't a a relationship relationship that started nearly seventy years ago back then. Gary mentioned from the Australian perspective force managers were noticing and really started to affect effect change back in the fifties will part of effecting change is reaching out across our government lines to other countries that have you've been experiencing those same challenges and as many on the phone. No back in the fifties sixties seventies. It really was starting to turn into two quite a challenge and the impact and threat to our travel community. So back in in the early fifties like I said nearly seventy years ago this exchange of of of knowledge that Australians New Zealanders can bring to the to the United States Canada. Mexico's joined here of late. In its sharing once again the knowledge and experience that has really helped us combat if it comes down to the suppression As as a suppression option that we've experienced now sending US firefighters over to Australia. And reciprocity occurred back in two thousand fifteen with Australian and New Zealand firefighters. It is so important because it's not only the current suppression active engagement. But it's what we learn from each other off fire season as everyone. Most everyone on the phone knows Australia's currently in their summer for equivalency. It'd be what July thirteenth here in United States dates heavily into that active component of of fire suppression but having that shared once again knowledge experience. has been so key and once again Gary. It's been a great Great advocate for that globalization across international time for a cross international lines and. Bi has sent many tribal members across. And I think that's says a lot one we bring that knowledge college back and we're hoping to get Some of our tribes engaged with an exchange as well. I think that's so critically important in buddy. Are there any cruise over there now. There are. I think we're on our third wave and when I say wave We initially had sent Firefighters over in November mid December. And I believe getting ready for a third deployment and as I mentioned The Australia still kind of in the middle of their fire season so we would expect aspect if needed to be able to provide a support. Most of them are right now. Mid level managers as an example helicopter managers aircraft craft managers strike team later individual some incident Command Positions Command General Staff Positions But that's changing the the enormity of this fire which Australia is currently experiencing Gary talk more about that. I don't know if ever we've ever seen in something like that so Really calling on many available resources from the states from Canada to provide that assistance gary anything to add just like to say a big. Thank you to biology and the person who you worked with Tom. FRY From the La who actually Tom- FRI- put together the The the first agreement back in two thousand dollars to come across across that was done the agreement from the first phone call from arrange guile I've it to myself and then to having having played on the ground was just over. Wake at it was a tremendous if it was based on trust trust developed by that sharing of knowledge that Bernice spoke about over the seventy odd years and particularly previously in the nineteen ninety nine For study the two with the Americans came across that that included some very senior pipeline. They'd Jerry Williams Regale Joe Cruise Mike Rotunda LS Forbes. lowry Parrot Harry crop to the ones that come to mind for me And the fact of the were they soul. Although there was an opportunity that develop the trust. I saw that we're operating under the same system of work that you do over the manly because previous study twos insane that The way the Americans were organized for firefighting was the best way to go. So we changed that practices to along with that and and So things have moved from them but we've also had research sharing of research knowledge between nothing particularly important cheer have had a a few of your notable researchers came across particularly from the community side which has been very helpful. And so you know it's a big. Thanks thanks thirties bringing a great supporter of the The exchange and making sure that we actually do along and he actually spent time in Australia on on a US. An exchange himself and that'll helps to work at all through together. Make sure that we're able to bounce off ideas. Jonathan learned from one another. I don't think anyone person's got all the knowledge no How exciting to hear about some of this in? We know that there are many many people in our communities that step up. Maybe you've been on one of these crews anything you want to share one eight hundred nine six two eight four eight is the number in so boaty he would. Can you share with us about your time there. Maybe things that you were able to learn in bring home And and thank you for that. Because 'cause I think it was critically important one of my What I really wanted to get accomplished so I was there? Two thousand two thousand nine was really spending in time with the aboriginal owners are the traditional owners The Ni- you people of the northern territories. I was able to spend time with and really have a better understanding house of one national politics when it comes to The aboriginals from Australia's perspective and then conversely me as a travel member number coming from the United States. And we don't need to get into the politics that we've gone through for the last two hundred years we as as tribes but really. It was a distinct a lot of distinctions between treatments but also treatments as a as an entity but then also treatments that as as Gary started to talk about how they put fire on the landscape very specific about the timing effort influence and and every every year An aboriginal honored by the Prime Minister which I thought was fantastic and the year I was there. was an individual who actually did did practical applications of fire on the landscape and and a thing of beauty one to be recognized of that but really seeing that the impression I was is getting with the Australian government really trying to take into account that traditional environmental knowledge and utilize that to the best of their ability and as Gary was mentioning the complexities have continued to to become an item that has to be addressed. But it's very difficult very hard to to address those special on such a large scale. But I think we continue to make those strides and we do it in the states as well and I and I applaud our tribes specialist. It's tribal forced us. Use me tribal fire programs working in concert with their foresters and really continuing to to lay that A lot of what. Our elders have put to us Anyway just really tying those two the two countries together this exchange program and really hope to get more tribal members involve also that we can continue to work with our aboriginal partners as well as Fire practitioners around the country of Australia. There any department torch firefighters who are interested in that. Where do they go or where should they look things up? Yeah so the the National Interagency Fire Center out of Boise is really They lead the effort. They do the request for action so to speak where you can develop and lay out your crew. What the experiences that are Australia requires? We WanNA make sure we we're hitting what they're requesting of us once again. Mostly here of the last few deployments have been for those mid level managers. But we really would like to open that up if we can to those tribal contracting active programs as an example. And I've spoken about this at a couple of conferences. Here of late Right now we're tied into federally. which is the specifics but The specific requirements. But I do see that we will eventually have that opportunity Once we wrangle out some of the some of the intricacies on sending employees abroad but still Just a fantastic program and I and I really hope to get those tribes. Many of or northwest tribes and California have had Australia New Zealand fire managers visit during those suppression. I've mentioned two thousand fifteen as an example example We also had them over here in two thousand eight and so the tribes have some initial knowledge of working working with those The New Zealander and Australian contingent which just helps make this program Grow even more. Maybe that's the part of the story. Sorry that you have some thoughts on or some experience with maybe even getting some of this knowledge In fighting one of the most devastating fires that was in your area or one that you went to another part of the country even butted up against the tribal nation you can share your thoughts going give Serene one eight hundred nine nine six two eight four eight is a number and you can also leave your comments directly on our website native America calling dot com. and Oh we're on social media too many different ways to get at us but you can dial in were live and we're also looking forward to your thoughts We're going to hear about could've tribe coming up after the break If there's anything you want to share about traditional knowledge going into firefighting There in the community you you can tell us about it or even in your own go ahead and dial in one eight hundred nine nine six two eight four eight is the number and maybe just even thoughts on and managing the land especially against a serious wildfires. We're ready phone. Lines are open support by dream. Spring a nonprofit community lender for over twenty five years dream. Spring has been increasing access to business credit for entrepreneurs across New Mexico Arizona Zona and beyond dream spring offers loans for self employed entrepreneurs startups and large established enterprises information about flexible credit requirements. It's affordable rates and customized lending available by calling eight hundred five zero eight seventy six twenty four or online at Dream Spring Dot Com. Thanks for joining us today. Here on native America calling and there is still time if you want to join our conversation about traditional forest management today the number to join us this is one eight hundred nine nine six two eight four eight and right. Now we're GONNA go to Orleans California to say hello to bill trip. He is a deputy director of ECO. Cultural Revitalization Department of Natural Resources for the tribe and bill is cut our pleasure to have him here bill. Welcome and bill. Traditional knowledge of the land goes In many direction in even firemen enjoyment. Any YOU WANNA share out how we heard a little bit from Both Bodey in Gary about the importance in the wealth that traditional knowledge brings Talk to us about how it's being utilized iced in your own community Yeah we have been Scaling up or use of Of of fire for for the past decade or two here in our KOTAK aboriginal territory A lot out of it has been focused on private lands in in the beginning and But but we've been in doing A lot more in getting some fuels reduction activities on the on the federal lands through through establishment of partnerships like the the Western powers restoration partnership and And engagement with Other networks like the tricks coaches network and fired after learning that work And and those types of things We we are now doing Collaborative planning At the landscape scale to where we've we've Initiated our first demonstration project of about fifty five hundred hundred acres called the integrated while fire management project where we intend to do linear manual mechanical fuel treatments around mid slope private in holdings holdings and And use those features where we treat to you to put fire on the ground And and and Use a prescribed burning initial treatment in some areas and bill. What would you like to say about why it is important? to burn well traditionally You know our world renewal ceremonies are serve as a reminder of what we're supposed so do Where when and why and We still perform those ceremonies And so what we're working to do you In the future is is to restore conditions conducive of A revitalizing those ceremonial practices. Because because fire is the central component to our our native American cultural identity and and You know reestablishing doing those indigenous fire. US practices will will be critical in preserving Who we are as an indigenous people? Talk to me a little bit about some some of that renewal especially with what the plan school through or even Burning area where certain plants that burn pretty fast. I are kind of pushed out of the area. Talk to me a little bit about that. Plant management this also going on. Yeah so you know. Our Basket Weavers recieve have not had adequate access to Weaving materials For quite some time hasn't been till just the last decade gate That we've been able to get some good fire on the ground and and And provide some access to for those folks to we've But there other components that were working on You know traditionally that was a female practice to to manage For for those plants And then but then the male male role in that system is was to To manage for the animals and so the the animals you know men could be burning on one side of the river while the women were burning on the other side of the river and and You know burning being in something like a live oak stand Draws the large ungulates. You know the deer and elk To to that favored browse Whereas where whereas if you don't do both Things in close proximity and you only burn for the basket materials then and they have a tendency to go and browse on those instead and and so you really have to look at that landscape scale and think about other interactions like like that And those those reminders are are then the knowledge and information on that is held in our in our deer skin dance. What's that we do every other year and and that tells us you know that we're supposed to be helping move the deer back and forth across the river every other year so bill? What kinds of education do you do in your community about these type of burns We are a co host of of the Klamath River prescribed by training exchange And so that's That's a an effort where we bring you know at eighty eighty to one hundred twenty people together annually and in early October to Come together and you know. Burn together and learn together. Talk about Some of these the reasons why we burn culturally as well as you know Getting fire and places where is strategic Egypt for the Hazard Fuels Reduction Component In addition to to that We also go to local grade schools chiefs in we've integrated Some foundations of our traditional knowledge practice and belief systems into K.. Eight through twelve lesson plans In that curriculum for some of our local schools and we also do demonstrations about You know what what fire is. And and How you use it and in those In those in the in the grade schools hoping that we can eventually Bring some more more fire practitioners up Sure sure in they talk a lot anytime Folks come to who different classrooms People are working in fire management and then their pitchers then you start seeing it in there so I can see you can see that connection BILL BILL IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO BURN their property share some of that knowledge of just steps to take or just what the Things to consider. Well one of the things that we're also trying to do is we're trying to build our programs Out to serve as a support network for family based burning and so We're starting with one of our traditional burn windows in the spring You know traditionally additionally in the one of the one of the stand types At least in our country that that has diminished significantly as far as sir conifer encroachment is concerned. Unifier fusion is is the Black Oak White Oak Woodland and so a lot of times places where people live are in those areas and so What we're trying to do is to build that support network for family base burning And and through uh through processes established like the indigenous peoples. Bring that work and And so here there's typically Two Week Window In in around February where the sun pops out for a couple of weeks and so but but the birds and things like that have not come back to to nest and so. That's usually the window. Where we're we're we're trying to encourage and support Local local landowners and local families to To engage in in some of these practices that were employed here for Millennia Those types of stands typically exist on low to mid elevation south southwest slopes which are the most volatile In the extreme mm-hmm. Weather's weather events that that you see in in in the summer months and so It's important to burn off the flashy fuels rules. Those leaves that that are are put down Regular every year by by those deciduous species And and to be able to prepare around your home for for fire season in so when we think about this on a larger scale into the tribe is going forward with a prescribed burn Are there ever challenges jurisdictional challenges on maybe even different kinds of land. Trust land feeling anything you want to share bill There are the one of the big things. Ah Air Permits That you have to get And those those aren't necessarily required in some counties racism in Siskiyou County. They're not required And in Humboldt County they are and so working with the With the The county air districts Can be a challenge. I know that the tribe tribe kind of US views applying for a permit as a as a diminishment of our sovereignty We we We haven't seated cheated any of these rights Through any formal treaty or anything You know the doctrine of Reserve a reserve rights doctrine Explicitly states that that You know the treaties are designed to to remove rights not Not to grant them and so so We don't have a tree that takes that away from us and so we you know we want to build old partnerships with agencies. Because we are a jurisdictional body are are con- The cutter. Trouble Constitution is is is unique in in that aspect in that it is it is The jurisdiction applied Through that document is is applicable people to the entirety of our Our Aboriginal territory and so in essence that creates a In overlapping jurisdiction and a Lotta time state and federal and county local government agencies. Don't don't recognize that or or understand the dynamics of that and so we're we're trying to educate those folks says well There there has been a lot of progress in that regard guard and particularly with some recent establishment of some BI programs Like the Reserve Tree Rights Lands Program and that helped us fund activities You know in other areas where where those overlaps exist well sounds like very very important conversations that need to be had in in glad to hear that maybe even some of them are happening and so bill. We are getting ready to wrap things up here in a lot of times when we talk about prescribed Burns People push back and just general public and and think that this is something that is very devastating for the the animals. The insects anything to share about the reality Yeah it's You know we we really need to get past this mindset that we have to be afraid of flyer I mean it is devastating today but ultimately gently. We need to make this a societal norm again in reestablishing our traditional knowledge practice and belief pathways in our local Average landscapes Because if we don't you know we will be subject to to Climate being the the primary driver for how fire behaves saves If we can get back to reestablishing patchwork of or mosaic of frequent burns even in a wind-driven weather event. It won't be it you know it shouldn't it never was historically a continuous large swath. Where fire are just moves? Twelve fifteen miles in a day in that gets very scary. Thank you for that Bill. And I'M GONNA turn to Gary Morgan who's also here joining us out of Stra With the global wildland fire management services. Gary many people have been devastated and just stem seeing. Thank you know the animals the wildlife there anything you want to report About that or you know. Further on when we do prescribed burns in in the concerns over the wildlife there anything gary certainly tire If I could just add to what bill just mentioned about climate change. I think that doing to the burning of the traditional line is in the past Given the in Australia Australia. If we didn't have humans he we would still have five because his lightning however the traditional iron is helped by adding cooler pause the right time of the year and vegetation strike has grown with far in the environment and from a forest perspective. We say it's critical to be continuing to put far into the environment from a climate change perspective because what we'll do is enable the species to actually move across the landscape and potentially on better habitat says climate China's and provide them with the opportunities to regenerate and use more tolerant parts of their Jiang pill. So we see that during the prescribed burning we will enable the vegetation to continue to move as it did in the past so going to picking up once again the the principles that were traditional line as head for many many years ago to the loss now of animals Let's bring catastrophic in Ustralia in recent months Pop from we had. I've a two thousand times of being burned but had many cattle sheep alpacas goats horses the likes but see a native animals. Birds Fish insects vertebrates frogs. Bats read Paul's The colleges coffin stop us doing Prescribe Burnsville hazard reduction. And under the the guys I assume is Trenton. Spacey's say it's continual battle for foresters to be apt to do that burn Because of these colleges college who do not appreciate the bigger picture with which has just been demonstrated in the last couple of months of head. This huge swathe of Hind tainted not falls and some of the colleges put the figure loss of well. I have a one billion terrestial animals align. That's a huge amount and it could be that some species being wiped brought up DRYWALL lock. It's going to deal with the draft in the high temperatures which could before the flaws. Aw but then the fall is kind they do with that. And we've seen and you might have been America's Sane Koalas and Kangaroos being looked after but there's selective habitat and food after the forest. And then I I get hammered off. Let by the invasion of foxes and cats into the burnt areas for the ninety animals world. It really raising concerns in anything just opening up just how all of these systems are woven together. Is something to you. Think about as we have to wrap up and You all have opened my eyes to things I haven't seen in the media and I appreciate that Thanks again we got a wrap it up. Thank boaty Shaw Gary Morgan build trip. We'll be back tomorrow. I'm Tara gatewood support by vision. Maker media whose mission for over forty years has been to empower and engage native people to share their stories vision maker media invites proposals for for fiction and nonfiction shorts by and about American Indians and Alaskan natives through March. First you can find out more about film project. Submissions submissions free streaming films receiving their newsletter. And how you can support the mission at vision maker Dot Org good day playing well takes practice and teamwork so does staying healthy let healthcare coverage guard you on and off the court contact your local health care provider visit healthcare dot Gov or call one eight hundred breath three one eight two nine six a message from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Native America calling just produce birds national native boy studios in Albuquerque New Mexico by Twenty Broadcast Corporation and native nonprofit media organization funding is provided by the corporation for Public Broadcasting Casting with support from the public radio satellite. Service Music is by Brent Michael Davids native voice. One the native American radio network.

Austrailia United States Gary America Gary Morgan Canada Global Wildland Fire Managemen National Native News Tara Gate Antonio Gonzalez Vanessa Cavanagh Bureau of Indian Affairs US District Court IHS Glacier county RCMP Albuquerque Bodey Shaw Indian Health Service
Ep. 209: The Deer Nut

MeatEater Podcast

2:16:17 hr | 1 year ago

Ep. 209: The Deer Nut

"All right soccer's we've been talking all the time about our live tour me cal. Yanni lot of special guests live tour coming up. Everything sold out. We got two days left. GotTa lock at Home April Fifteenth and April Sixteen April Fifteen Mesa Arts Center Mesa Arizona so it's like Phoenix Market April sixteen city National Grove. Anaheim California again me. The Latvian Eagle ocal special guests meter live April Fifteen Mesa Arts Center Mesa Arizona April Sixteen City National Grove. Anaheim California. Get your tickets. Let's finish this thing up. This is the media podcast. You shirtless severely vote bitten in my case underwear listening to meat eater podcast. You can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters download the hunt APP from the I tunes or Google. Play store know where you stand on X. Listeners? To know that filled engineer has got to be like he's not good starting at timer. You might have to go back behind the curtain. I have to go back into the gym. Let's go back into the back into the resumes. Hours talking about lines and Calle Samba. What amount land doesn't it drops down into like a pen full llamas. If I was I would be allow a specialist. That big neck hard. You'd be drawn a drunk cap drunk no matter what you're going to get it with the neck like that but that would allow specialist mount win. They really like to keep their heads. High I would. I will quickly depopulate the nation. It'd be a Llama epidemic. An epidemic of Lama losses. Couple of things. I don't know if you guys news things on top for we forget into it. I haven't dug into this yet. But Disney's redoing they're doing. I don't know they're doing a live action Bambi remake. I was told about this yesterday. I believe man alive action so it's going to be like that's stupid thing. They did with the lions talking like people. Yes so line all showed me the INTRO D- to the lion king deal and then he explained that it is. They didn't vary a very the story at all. It's the exact same story from the animated. The full animated version. Yeah but it's just like actual lions. What's up man? Phil called it disturbing. So it's like a buck that are going to be tough man. 'cause you've got these these lions you know voiced by humans but with absolutely no human facial expressions just dear is decidedly less dear is decidedly less sort of facially active. So it's GonNa be even worse than than the Lions I. There's a part in that movie. Where your trail cam footage of deer eating baby bird's nest as part of the movie how I would kill to be? I've helped out in in the movie world on on one script as far as like hunting accuracy and it's something did some consulting. Yeah the movie years. Last of the MOHICANS. No it was revenue. Call the walking out. Oh yeah which was all excited for a minute. Because if he did what any of those movies I was going to smack you shit. Yeah but that was for for my buddy calling helping him and it's just like the dude like a horse dude. Now he's not a horse dude. Who's up whitefish? Yeah he's White Fish. Cashier Horse Dude. Little bit liquor rang or he's to wrangle horses for movies. No we just kind of looks like that type of person though you met him once anyway. I met a dude one name that who was a horse wrangler for movies. Oh no lived up in that neck of the woods. No I always call this guy a young Makaay because just because of his hair more than anything different guys. Yeah but the movie world just the fight so hard against reality is just. They'd want no part of it. Did you see that thing? I did that G. Q. Breakdown though was fantastic G Q Z. And they have this thing they do the breakdown so you can go watch like a navy. Seal Breaking Down Navy seals scenes in movies. There's a chef breaking down cooking scenes in movies. There's there's many of them Alex. Donald the climber breaks down climbing scenes in movies. I did want to break down tracking and hunting scenes in movies and leading out talking. Someone and I was like man. Why don't these movie people like? Why don't they hire a guy to come in and be like no? You know you should make it like this. Seem more real and he said Oh they do they. Just don't listen to them. They like to have them around. Just you know just like I wouldn't do it like that. You know you gotta tape here with a machete. And they're like in this movie. We do plus we said the general Way of doing things that has changed quite a bit. Because you look at the reality of The Robert Redford Jeremiah. Johnson elk shot like that elk died. You pointed out and he took some heat for Robert Redford. Kinda like justified and explained in Maclean's movie ranch already logs gray's film ever made they they shoot a steer with the sharps rifle and he expressed to me that he was glad. They don't do it that way anymore. Oh they bought a steer shot. And when you watch the movie if you're familiar with any kind of hunting or farming or anything when you're watching movies there's no confusion you watch last of the Mohicans when they shoot dear dear. Dear wasn't shot that was I don't know what it went from. A live dear to a stuffed thing. No it goes somersaults. Yes slow. Yeah through stuffed animal through the woods. Somersaulting yeah I I imagine how for the amount of folks that are on a film set. How some could it could probably cast a shadow over production for a day. You're if you're not familiar when watching the the light fade from something is anyone with sensitivities. Might want to come to work late today about ready to quit talking about Phil. Let me ask you just as an impartial. Observer shared you think we should cease covering severed finger stories or no or what is the feedback? Been like more just we get flooded with severed finger stories and images. Have you gotten anybody? That's say you're you're making me gag. Why listen to your podcast? Send us more and more graphic. I have pictures of severed fingers would curl your hair. Okay well I think as I said one of my wife and she was genuinely mad at me for two days I would be too was about midnight house in a different time zone and I sent her an image. Yeah no explanation. This is an audio medium though so I think I think you're okay. I WANNA post them to instagram. But I feel like I'd get banished. Oh Yeah for sure. You got sent the the grinder one right now. That's that is haunting actually if you grind your own meat because the hand when it gets eventually cut out of the grinder is very familiar. Very familiar tend to need chunk. Somebody's started page separate page on the dark web. Before I get into my anyways finger stories. I Jim Heffelfinger. That's a Helluva name. Actually he's being severed. Grandfather severed his finger. The Railroad Rail House GRANDPA Hatha Finger most. Yes unusual last name. You have to tell people your job real quick Swiss German. My name is Swiss German. I'm websites coordinators the fish department. But you got your like you're in there man you mix it up. It's fun you write articles. Listen to staff monitor stuff. Argue roasting the. It's all interesting. Yeah I started to be an interesting Jim because he sends so many clarifications and corrections. I don't WanNa be that guy not very respectful. Like we'll get a lot of guys that like sending a correction or two and you can just see over the month. You'll see him just become very agitated but they're not getting the level of attention they want and it just turn the turn like they hate you but still listen. Listen it doesn't occur Okay this guy is talking about. This guy is talking about another great story. So this guy's this guy got married and his best man's dad had retired there. I don't understand. Is he tired retired and moved to a golf course and he would kill time by mowing the lawn. I feel like it must have been a spare job not volunteer. Would you move to a golf course? Volunteer to mow the golf course listened. My GRANDPA would volunteer and mow lawns out at the golf course that he loved. I did not understand it but my buddies who were working out at that golf course as like caddies. No they loved it. They're like yes. Grandpa really came by more today. I've been anti-golf my whole life but I'm huge. I'm super pro golf now. I don't want to tell people why. Tell people about what what happened with me in the FLIPFLOP flasher but now we're like major golf supporters. At least it's greenspace. I'm not a Golfer. But a major golf supporter. I support the golf industry. My Dad always said friends with the golf industry. Hit the ball and chase it. Hit the bone. Chase it though. Simps- out there hit the chase. Oh no this golf supporter but I mean I love all offers. I support all golf courses but It's a moronic sport anyway. This guy's off mowing the golf course. You just picture this. So he's in he's in a more. It's got a roll bar and he's coming in. There's a pole with a guy line guy cable coming off of it so he realized that the roll bar in the cable are GonNa make contact so he really. He's got he breaks. You realize reaches up to put some up pressure on the guy line to clear it from the roll bar but then his foot slips off of the break Phil can you put in a good noise. That sounds like this guy. But it's like a right. I mean is that the sound of flesh or the sound of like. What's what's happening here with that noise. That's the cable. Cotton is off okay. So combination of I think the most disturbing part of all of these is. There's rarely a scenario where I don't see myself. Having narrowly avoided that happening to me or I can't do. Oh I could see how I would do that great detail. He says that his the ten the ten. There's a tendency find their way into these stories. Tendon is a picture of the finger with like sixteen inches attendant. Came off up at the elbow but the tendon he said is wrapped around the cable. This he's a good writer. He says it's a similar. You took a ribbon and run it along. A pair of scissors coil. It up. That's how he's describing the coil of the tendon and this man then. Getting up there in unwrapping his own wrapping his finger from the cable nugget figure star is the last one for today. Those two stories one has nothing to do with fingers. Galveston is man's welder. And he had a big well and golden and his super hot chunk slag got down as well and Glove and lodged against his wedding rings. Wedding ring got so hot. That burn scars circle round his finger. Now he doesn't wear wedding rings. He's got a scar circle instead. He's got a scar as a wedding and a story a few more things man. I just have one more to more. Now shoot anything. Jim You get bored. No I like finger. Stories lasagna finger. No I'm not bored retarded day. We had an episode of our drop down ice holes and his sky drops. Three fifty seven Smith and Wesson doubtless down the ice all releases. It'd be like why absolutely why that is not a common part of my stainless. So the real bummer. That you couldn't get it with a magnet. He sends an a video of him and his ice house. He gets his ice house ripping how the heater and he's in his ice house swim. Trunks goes down the hole can't find comes back up looks in rough shape man and gets warm back up again his buddies film and it looks like totally rough shape and he get psyched up. Dies back down here again. It comes out. Pretty much is bisected real and back in with a rope around his ankle and he's got that pistol. He says they were tone it around because I kept seeing wolves out on the ice. Oh my gosh pretty funny. That's good Jim Heffelfinger. Let's start out with this so I guess first off tell people what you're SORTA SCOPE is. You're you're the scope of your life's work as wildlife guy. So I spent twenty two years as a regional biologist in Tucson Arizona and fish department and then the last four years I moved to kind of a statewide position call science and the gist of that job is to have someone kind of free floating that can do some of the deep dives in the science and make sure that we've got good site supporting the policies and the decisions we make as an agency says pretty unusual to have a state wildlife agency to be. I think forward thinking enough to have someone like that to make sure that we're providing a good scientific foundation and the things we do in your work. I know that just from talking about various issues around the country inherently your work spreads beyond Arizona because wildlife issues. Don't stop at state lines right. Yeah one of the biggest reasons I'm involved lot of Westwood stuff is I'm also. There's a an association of Twenty Four Western State Wildlife Agencies State and provincial agencies and it's called the Western Association of fish and Wildlife Agencies. And they get together twice a year and they have subcommittees sub committees and some working groups. And I've chaired I've been on the Mueller Working Group For more than twenty years. Now I've chaired it for the last thirteen or fourteen years and so as as a chair that oversees a mule deer expert from each of those twenty four Western agencies. We as a group and me as the chair a real involved in all the western migration stuff you had met Kaufman here and and yeah given not talking about some of the stuff they're doing have been working with Matt and Kevin Actually an awful lot on a lot of these things in the West but that that position to the Western association chairing that group really puts me involved in in in the seat to do a lot of things throughout the west to also the bigger things you get involved in like. You know all your big game and you're charismatic mega-fauna How low down in the. What's the smallest thing here involved in? Well my twenty two years as a regional biologists. I was in charge of three species of quail. Turkey restoration in southeastern Arizona Mountain Lions Bighorn. Sheep pronghorns all of all of the hundred species is what I dealt with from beginning to small game and most of my career and it's really the last four years or so that I've been doing primarily a lot of big game a lot of big game western stuff Various miscellaneous sites support for the agency and then Mexican Wolf recovery which have been involved in for the last ten years over a decade. Now we'll get to that a little bit. I know that's a part of what I do. And it's a constantly changing landscape. It is mine field. You might think yeah first question so quick. Hitter topics area. A lot of this is inspired by feedback. You've given US questions emerge on other shows. One of we've emailed about is this. We've we touched on this like news. Reports about this confusion about this is there's this seems to be this emerging idea that people are like well if if hunters they want to see like one hundred big box right hunters my shoebox. They WANNA shoot big bighorn sheep. They want you big Moose if you go out and selectively target big bucks are you changing the evolutionary path of the species. Meaning you're putting. You're putting a selective pressure against big antler gear. This is an argument against trophy hunting right and by doing that. You're making them. You're driving them to become smaller right right. You buying not buying no service with a dear family. There's evidence of that at all. This all came to light is not even that new just once in a while a reporter will learn about it in write an article about it and think through the first one to write about it but it really cause. That's a good way of expressing. How things like this come up. And they stay alive like that Someone thinks that. Hey I just found out this new thing but everybody's been discussing it for seventeen years which has been about the case with this in two thousand. Three David Colton came out with fingers. You don't feel that way. Do we keep doing that. Keep doing that. These guys think they discovered severed fingers so there was a there was a paper in two thousand three. That really lit the world on fire on this whole topic. You didn't hear three thousand three okay. That's all along. And that's really the genesis of all this recent kind of interest in that in that topic but there was a there's a population on the east side of the Albert Araki's and it separated from the main part of the rockies. Bighorns bighorns okay. It's called Ram Mountain and it's a really small little dot out away from the rest of the sheep populations. I gotTa Stop You. Okay you mentioned with service but now we're talking about yup cheap. Yeah right help people through that and I've just I just mentioned services right off the bat to almost dismiss that because then we can talk about some of the reasons. W what did your family. So Moose and elk and deer and and Anything in the deer family with basically with antlers with a few exceptions so this whole idea of trophy hunters ruining the gene pool degrading the Gene Pool. Some of the popular media. Call it evolution in reverse. That is really been focused on bighorn cheaper while cheap and and it all comes from this one isolated. Unique population called Ram Mountain and Alberto in. They did some research on there. And they they reported in two thousand three in nature that hunters selecting the largest rams were actually causing a genetic change in the population so that there are smaller and smaller rams in that population and then that same author even came out in two thousand eight and said well my work in two thousand three really probably over exaggerated the genetic component of that. There's really more nutrition than I originally said in the paper but it was too late. The the popular media took that and ran with it. And you saw you saw everywhere and part of it was for people. Don't like hunting people. Don't like trophy hunting. It was such an irresistible story trophy under something negative about trophy hunters and some people. Just love that and so a trophy hunters are ruining the gene pool. And all the popular media picked up on that. And then there's even some scientists who don't like trophy hunting and don't like hunting and so they started looking at other data sets and see if they could produce paper that looked Something similar in all the subsequent papers that came out they would cite the Ram mountain information which later found out to be over exaggerated in the genetic component in these in these other scientists would speculate Citing around mountain and then speculate that this may be happening in these other areas that may be happening with all big game maybe happening with all species worldwide that humans harvest and so these other papers are just full of speculation but every time someone published a paper to speculate someone else could cite the speculative paper and the remote and paper and these served to build this body of speculation and and now we're starting to get back and apply some science to that and find out that it's it's it may happen in a few cases but it's certainly not widespread but it's too late. The public is has seen the popular message in our reading scientific papers but the bottom line is if selection is intensive enough it can affect the gene pool in the future. What you need to think about is in what cases is selection intensive enough to actually change the gene fogel in cheap or or deer or or any other species that we hunt. And the answer is it's very rare case. And the case on round mountain was unique because it was isolated the population swelled and bottleneck a few times. Which can affect the genetics and also. They had hunting regime. There were it was an unlimited number of hunters can hunt that little isolated mountain range Lou isolated mountain but they had to be four-fifths Carol before the harvest. And so that's a situation where the rams have faster growing horns better genetics faster-growing horns are going to get truncated. They'RE GONNA get taken out of the field as soon as they hit four-fifths and so that's the case where the rams have faster going horns are going to be removed higher proportion than Ramsey slower growing horns so that was the basis of this Goldman. And so there's it's so theoretically and in practice there it's not flawed that in certain situations that can happen. We did some more recent research with with Kevin Monte Slab. Taylor showers a graduate student where we took state bighorn. Sheep records state records are important because we had horn measurements and we also had ages on those rams something boon to Crockett Popa record books. Don't have ages. They just have measurable and they don't they don't record the number annualized horn Not Not Wounded Crockett. No it's measurements. They got their measurement system and then on the data sheet there they can put Age on some of the species. But I'm not sure if they even do with bighorn sheep On their problem has yet to be pretty well trained. Yeah it's not. It's not that easy. There's some there's some experience goes into it but state agencies do record age and record some measurements. Crockett sometimes just basis plus the length of the Horn and so we went to the state records and got all the state records. We could assembled into a database where we had age and we had the Antler the horn measurements. And then we were able to analyze these the sheep records and we were able to to Accommodate or neutralize the effective age. Because obviously the older the ramlet bigger the horn. So you got it in your analysis. You've got to be able to Look at that and Ferret that part of the analysis out. Then we're also able to look at some India index which is a greenness index of satellite imagery and we were looking at Nutrition and environment and how that affected horn size in these in these states in these populations and in the end. We analyzed Data from thirty five years from seventy two different hunt units around North America And in the end we found that of those seventy two units Seventy eight percent of them were either stable or the horn size was increasing. So only twenty. Two percent even showed a decline. Now we don't even know yet what that decline is but in those twenty two decline. Only half of those had hunt regime. That even even could possibly exert some selective pressure. You know sometimes you can just look at hunt system and in complete permit system that Arizona has were someone just takes us one rammed. Yeah One tag mountain range. So you're not. You don't have that kind of selective pressure like you have if you have unlimited number of hunters cream and that that horn side that certain level and so even in the twenty two where they they weren't stable or increase in horn length they were decreasing Still about half of those could even have possibly been due to some selective pressure and so the the bottom line is even in sheep which is the only species that this has really been Found in a in a controlled setting. It's very unusual to have that kind of hunting regime that that would actually apply that selective pressure to cause kind of genetic changes in all of this is confounded terribly with With nutrition more nutrition animal gets the bigger the horns and antlers. The older the animal gets the bigger the horns and antlers in and there's all kinds of obstacles which is the paper. You saw that. I wrote all kinds of obstacles that get in the way of hunters actually affecting the gene pool and one hundred goes out and shoots the passes up a spike and shoots eight point Whitetail Buck in Iowa technically that selection because they passed up one buck and they selected a bigger buck. But you have to look at the intensity of selection is that anywhere near Intensive enough to cause any genetic changes you think about all of the other things that are removing animals from the population that have nothing to do with Horner Antler size. You have for example. Fon Crop you lose half of the fawns every year before their first birthday In general in those losses of half of that annual cohort have nothing to do with horn or antler size mountain lions. You've got predators killing adults. That have nothing to do with Antler size and the idea that hunters going out during daylight hours in the unit. They have a permit for only able to take males the fact that the idea that they're affecting that entire gene pool is just ludicrous. That you would apply that kind of pressure that could happen in some cases and cheap but it's pretty rare. There's so much so much conflicting data out there too as to how much regularly even we one hundred and certain cases are actually even affecting behavior like you see all these white tail papers that come out and it's like well the bucks have gone. Nocturnal thing well. No He'd track them and they do just as much walking around during the day as they do at night. You know I mean hunting effects behavior hugely of game animals. But like you look at these clubs situations right where it's like five guys hunting. You know a thousand acres. They're out there. Maybe twenty five days total between the five guys and they all have the same story as Joe Dude going out on public land here so educated. Yeah but it's generational they're raised by. I mean these are animals that spend a year with their mothers spent a year with her mother who spent a year with her mother. There is a learned. You know. There's learned response. I mean you just go look at landscapes where you always had hunting and then took it away. Oh that that spot that. We hunted Oh siegfried on x hundred this year. Now it's this funky access deal where you kind of have to get up on this rock room and I swear to God. Thirty percent or more of the mule deer dose just walked blow staring at that rocker. Like they'd just wear it locked on it. And when you and your body sneak in always yellowstone you is act like you hunted somewhere else. I mean go all right you and your body better than anybody else Do you get frustrated by the way sauce covered in the media. It's gotTa make you man and makes it. He may not even a scientist does but when you know the science and the public not reading scientific papers when you know the science and you see something like that just catch fire and run away in the media. And it's not true and his exaggerated and everything that you read is full of errors. And and that's what everybody that's what most of the general public readings credible places that run with it to like National Geographic. Could cover the piss out of a story like that. They would never covered the being that it wasn't accurate. They would have zero interest in it because they love anything that can be like a little bit like put a little taint down hunting. They love it. They go out of their way to find it. They were never be like. Oh you know it. Turns out that that wasn't actually true like the bias is so with an organization like that like the bias is so severe. Look at this thing. That's going on with Donald Trump. Junior right he's doing a fundraiser. He's doing a fundraiser. Where THEY'RE GONNA GO. Docs and black tailed deer. And the media's covering like a trophy animal hunt hunt dachshund black tails trophy animal hunt now. Yeah well the. The House described the other so that I use Body that I pay attention to for a lot of conservation up-to-date conservation facts and knowledge Blotter stories came out earlier or late last year. On how the CNN has determined that trophy hunting as this terrible thing and it's killing these animal populations and you start reading into it and not not Bush Not Bush me on the paper is this is a something that was being researched and it's not even the conclusion somebody just took it and ran this out. This is not finding but nobody covered that story. There's always pushback some letters. I think I sent you something recently with the conservation. Frontlines is a is an email service that you can subscribe to free and they had some really good information about some scientists have gotten together and some some people have gotten together and the representing local African communities and African communities are saying how dare Western People take away our livelihood. The you know this is sustainable conservation. It's funding conservations funding our villages. And how how dare someone sit in their White House someplace in the US and say this isn't a good thing it's like it's like left wing imperialism man that right it's like it's like a softer gentler. Imperialism do you think the UK bands are kind of a little long-term guilt? Laden thing is from the days of British imperialism no we're yes like tack and a little like the pendulum right chain. Mahoney asked me to be on the sustainable use livelihoods committee so that's one of the committee. He chairs and real active with. And it's all about this. I like the ratings. Yeah we should I tend to. I tend to eat a lot of things that are of least concern. I was recently looking at the mountain. Line changed it says that it's decreasing. It says that the populations are I looked at that understands Vermont line. I don't understand that either. In fact one of the the main paper they site for that is someone. I I work with Mexican Wolf Recovering I sent him an email with a link to that and since they were citing their work I just asked him what. What does that all about? And I haven't heard from him yet but we'll get the Di- you see and does a little bit player predictive game but even that would not line predicting a decline. When something's on an increase how do you predict? Yeah so that. That's just patently wrong. Yeah we should say International Union for the conservation of nature. Yeah if you go on. And the WIKIPEDIA gives a lot of ink to so. If you type in any species like going your neighbor looking at relooking at the long tailed weasel so the eye you C. N. long tailed weasel. It would have it like population of least concern. Which is which is like the best news species can get. The thing you want is to be least concern. Grated out over. I don't know how many designations and it's six hours a spectrum there and there's like a most concern and then a critical concern extinct. I think tank. Yeah Yeah Okay next question. We have before you've done some work with that. We talk about valve guys all damn time. He's a good friend of mine. Busy good friend. Twenty Years Gay In fact I brought Ben O'Brien valve guys bone broth recipe for it. And that's good valve guys okay. We talk we covered this before. Velgo is had he took a stab at what I want to Redo it. He took a stab on how the meal you're came to be. I presented this mule deer. Researchers were they were not titillated by it. They didn't even want to take it on. As a fanciful and like not understandable. But it was this idea that for hung do short version cow. Hold your thumb out and as you get bored start going. I was going to turn the pleistocene. So you're doing better. Okay if you know or you can let me do a crash course in what I'd read. He Florida this idea. That three million years ago and the like one is now the southeastern. Us whitetail deer calcium. Still up which do have the hammer. Your kid asked me that too and I got to tell you the same thing I I don't know seven fifty right there Saying Oh yeah. There's always been white tailed. Deer was now the southeastern. Us We had this big wet know period of lush growth and these deer colonized coast-to-coast colonize the the mid continent from the east coast of the to the West Coast. Then it was a big dry period and the empty in the middle emptied out and these deer on the West that were remained on the West Coast. Gradually evolved into black tails then. There was another period where it was moist and conditions were good and this population of black tails moved east the white tails which had retreated to the southeastern. Us had moved back West. They met along the Rocky Front. The Rocky Mountain Front had sex and SPAWNED MEAL. The hybrid is and then there's another great retraction. Black till's went back to the coast. Wait till went back down to the southeast in this lingering population of these hybridize. I think it was black till box making love to whitetail does. That's your Mueller. Yeah and they said that. I presented to people and they had a response. Kinda like move on there was some. There was a scientific basis for val coming up with that theory which has been superseded by other genetic work that came like how what what's up with all the deal so that was that was basically. I think it was. It was glacier's advancing receding rather than wet and dry I think probably was changing environments. Changing habitats were causing a split. But but regardless. That's basically the story that that Val came up with and he did that for a reason because when I first started doing genetic work they found out that black tailed deer have completely different mighty conrail. Dna than meal there yet. They're sub-species so all kinds of DNA THEIR DNA in the nucleus and you get this nuclear DNA half of that for your mother half from your father. There's another kind of DNA floating around in the cells. Outside the nucleus called MITOCHONDRIAL DNA might encounter. Lena you only get from your mother. So it's like a clone comes from your mother and your grandmother and in her mother. Yeah that's how they like contract down sort of the all of Western Europe theoretically track all of Western Europe to like a female to conrail eve. So so the Mitochondria so you can you want to analyze both types of DNA and the yield different answers to different kinds of questions but initial mitochondrial DNA analysis. Showed you think about really the two black yourself are just sub-species of meal there. They're all od. Collies him. Yoenis some subspecies. And then you have white tail. Which are different species Virginia and yet when they looked at the Mike Lindell DNA they found out that mule deer and whitetail deer have basically the same mighty conrail DNA which is bizarre because they're different species and both of them including Mueller have different DNA. From black. Tails of black deals. Have this unique motor Kendra Lena. So Val took that just thinking about that. Val said well that could probably occur if if if black tailed deer bed with white tailed deer and the offspring brought in that white tailed deer mighty conrail DNA. So if you had female Whitetail deer breeding with black-tailed males in they spawn some kind of hybrid meal. There than all those Mueller would have the same mitochondrial. Dna has the white tail because it comes through the female line. So it was female white tail than Mueller would have that same. Mcconnell DNA he follows Phil and black tailed will be different and so that just going on that. That was the basis. Oh what inspired that inspired it so it made sense at the time but later on more work especially with nuclear DNA that you get half from your mother and your father you look at Mueller Nuclear Dna. And and it's it's closely aligned with black tails black tail and Mueller all closely associated and then white tails completely different so if they really were hybrids than the mule deer when you look to the Nuclear Dna they would have about half of the whitetail genome when about half of the black-tailed Gino but they don't meal. During black tailed deer evolved as one group and then black tailed deer split off during one of the advance of the ice ages over in the Pacific coast. So the're okay. So in this version of events mule deer predated black tails. Yes Yup in that version. But here's white till looks or sick of black tail looks so damn much like a white tail growth land everything. Well even like meditation. Glazer's other things were the black tailed. Deer actually looks like a hybrid. Which makes it confusing as hell because the black tailed deer looks almost like it's got some whitetail characteristics but when German networks the black-tailed can't be can't be a hybrid between those who and so. It's gotta be convergent. Where they they kind of acquired traits that are similar even though they're not Dragonflies and humming. But we talk about This Day. Dragonflies in hummingbirds both fly Causes Yup. We didn't genetic analysis we did some genetic analysis all up and down the coast in black tales from California up to Oregon Washington British Columbia and then British Columbia. It starts getting sick to black tails up into Alaska and we had them all analyze all those. In and found the highest concentration of genetic diversity was the coast of Oregon and Washington in black tailed deer both subspecies of black tailed. Deer and geneticist population. Geneticists will tell you that where you have a focal point with high genetic diversity right there and then lower genetic diversity reading out from that that indicates that was the REFU- Jim that's the that's ground zero for that species of that animal and so likely the black tailed deer were isolated for a long time during one of the many glacial advances in receding over on that coast and then gradually expanded out from there with receding glaciers and so so why is a Sitka then look different than the Colombian and I don't know the answer like why he doesn't typically have a bifurcated antler like a four dollar Chine. Well then what's your sit- because do they? I mean they tend to throw rack a hell of a lot like a white tail. They look they're small. They're about the same size like that. The mature ones will have the the. G2's but sit because had the double white bibs on their throat They're kind of a different tail. They look different in that. Nobody knows for sure. What kind of separation? There might have been. In some glacial period between Columbian Black Tailed Sitka. Black tailed the SITKA. Could just be a fina. Typical of physical adaptation to that marine environment swimming and living on islands in that kind of environment. It could be adaptation there physically changing not so much because of the separation. Nobody really knows that for sure. The disadvantage listening to this podcast. That you can't see all the sweet First light suffering is wearing actually have to slide things on right now cold outside. I got my Best Ama- jacket but if you watch. Tv show meter on Netflix. You'll see what we're talking about very versatile lightweight hunting clothes that we wear everywhere. They got everything you need. And the new two thousand Twenty Line. Go check it out now. Firstlight DOT COM new colors coming out. In fact I got this sweet kind of never this color. It's like a stone. Color bad caller. Go check it out first. 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Throw you back to randomized dates and you wanted to settle location on your time machine to maximize the chances that you'd stumble into a white till. What would you set? Florida Florida? Yeah and there's a lot of white tail fossils in Florida. In fact I've been hanging around near long time. They have been yeah. They've been in the place of seeing. There's there's just a ton of places seen whitetail fossils in Florida and actually brought you on really kind of Shit. It's an epicenter. So that you can see the fossilized material. And that's just the fossilized the bone base from the skull. So they get the pedicle the antler about an inch and a half antler about an inch of skull and it feels like stone is stone. Yep You know the word. Pentacle comes from George Goober Nick famously researcher George and George and his his father Anthony and Anthony. They wrote a book in Nineteen Ninety. Call Horns pronghorns antlers. And it's like the Bible for Antler kind of Antlers Science geeking out But Anthony Booby. Coin didn't coin the phrase pedicle but he told us how to pronounce it paddock because it rhymes with medical but Anthony Boob spoke about six languages and English was like his fifth language. And so I always think it's kind of funny that we're all taking pronunciation of this guy who nobody can understand when he spoke English. That's amazing man. This is out of Florida. Florida has run around. He'd bump into mastodons and that's dated stated Pleistocene Jim also broad shows a replica of a Sabertooth Tooth Milot on fatalities his canine And Smile a don is interesting is eleven inches long. Yeah Mylan has not because they had a big smile with those big toothy smile dot coms from. Think it's Mealy. I don't know how to pronounce it but it's Latin for double edged sword really. I laughed at one of these. Just jumped out. Just grab fill. It would make a bike ride to work a little more chiding like it was killed them. I'd be like Do you believe that cal. That's what I'd say. Real slow move. Real slow had a lot of white tails. Orion cal- Florida also has the the spring site where they got all the fossils out of including the giant tortoise with not familiar with that giant tortoises. That once roamed. What is now the United States? But they found a tortoiseshell in this spring in Florida that had a spear point now saw our talk to our performer. Podcast so they start digging into the actual paper. It's like laying nearby laying in the shell as they brought the thing out and they're like so it could be this but it very well could be this but then clear evidence of ceremonial turtles religious tone of the paleontologists in New Mexico that was knocking one of the Arrow points knocking one of a little shoulders off in saying that was indicative of Sandia man and he wrote papers and constructed this big because he always not to shoulder off a he but they found out later knocking the shoulders off and saying it would diagnostic. Of Wow isn't bad news some bad stuff but he wasn't doing it as a greater social experiment. No that's a bummer. Can I can I tell people what you were using before we started recording your observation about archaeology or is that just two hundred and that's fine. That's fine you tell yourself. The tooth is hard. A friend of mine always call archaeology a soft science because we just so much of it is just made up. They'll find a toe bone and then the right of paper about what the home range was and in what the color of the fur was unfortunately. There's just a lot of a lot of garbage. I was looking into archaeological evidence of Elkin Arizona. We're doing some. Miriam delk stuff. And there was a son who is a paleontologist archaeologist and his dad was to with university and he had forty four thousand dear family bones out of the site in Arizona and he had like fourteen or so elk. And so I was really interested in those elk specimens and I couldn't get a hold of the the Sun By talked to the Dad. And the DAD says all those those are big Coleus. Those are big meal those were now. He didn't know what he's talking about talking about his own son. Yeah in his favor so there's a lot of that in there. You just gotTa really be skeptical. Be Cautious you can't read a paper and then just go repeating without some skepticism of thinking thinking about it when I was when I was working buffalo but it came up like Alice came up where I was reading about where there were accounts of them occurring. And there's a lot of versions of why Buffalo New York became Buffalo New York often reading books that like Buffalo. New York was Buffalo New York. Someone had encountered buffalo wings. Well no I think I get into it. The Book Hammer for explain or not bunch. Different theories about how it got the name but it won't be that sometimes you'll see distribution maps for where buffalo roamed Bison Bison Bison roamed and people will have gone up in New York. The did the range map. We're up in New York and it comes from people. Include it because two skulls came out of some campsite some excavation of a campsite New York just the skulls in both of them had cultural markings on them and later people looked at it and thought were they living here or did someone get some from someone and bring them home The same way copper. The comes out of Michigan's upper peninsula can be found anywhere in the Midwest and trace back like people took stuff they thought stuff was cool and brought it home with them jared parrot feathers in Arizona and all kinds of things from Central America. There's these big trade routes Zahra and if you look in the not the last Elkin North America book. I think it was the one before it. Or maybe it was the last one before the last one and they show elk distribution all the way down to Mexico City and it's only because Montezuma had some elk yet a menagerie he in the menagerie any at some Elkin that Menagerie and people do the distribution map to include Mexico City. And in fact. That really weren't in in in. Mexico cortes his his recorders described the first the first bison ever witnessed by a European Was PROBABLY IN. Montezuma's menagerie witnessed by cortes expedition. And I think that somehow and somehow they describe it as having come from the north. Yeah probably come from the north and not that it lived there. The Mueller is first described from The journals of Laura and he I described. But a mueller likened in the west and it was found out later that there was no such person as Charles Array and that his journals were entirely fabricated by someone. They don't even know who really but entirely fabricated journalist taking pieces some from Lewis Clark some from different journals from explorers and put it together and made up the story about Charles Ray who is in the West. He was captured by sue. Indians use held captive for several years By by the tribe and during that time he kept a journal because it was only because Western literature was really popular. This is some late eighteen hundreds. I think Western literature is really popular and being held captive by native American tribes was Like really hot story so this guy just fabricated this whole thing and so you'll read a might early writings. We'll talk about Charles. Laura described the first mule deer. Those are it turns out. It's just crass permeate Fabric Kirby. Everybody keeps repeating it over and over again. We're talking ahead of this Came here at some point in time. You'd mentioned that you wanted to discuss Elliott coups but let me. T- that off with. Do you accept. I'm going to be like hoosier kind of one of my favorite animals Mar. W my probably maybe first or second favorite thing to go hunting for maybe third turkeys meal during Whitehill. I'm sorry Turkeys Mule deer to whose deer in my mind depends on what time of year it is which one of my favorite thing to hunt but are accused. You're like do you accept. Or what's the thinking? There like a subspecies of the white tails white tails and having to live somewhere else. Yeah there's no doubt there sub-species that really evolved differently because they were in the Sierra Madre of Mexico and so they were really geographically fairly isolated from the Sierra Madre. Dear Okay Yeah I mean when you get down you get about halfway down this year. Madria and then they start getting all these other sub-species names but nobody's really done science on that at all we've got a small white tail throughout the highlands of Mexico and none of them are probably any different. Probably basically cowed. You're the way down through the theorem on your cows deer. Man You didn't you. Didn't you hear you hear? Yanni a couple of weeks ago you guys. You're near man. This is the first cows your man we've ever had in this room. I had my fifteen minutes of fame a couple of weeks ago and Yanni said there's like one guy that says cows screw him fifteen minutes. They mentioned me. They mentioned your man. Well here's the deal elliott cows. That's how you pronounce. No that's not what I heard. You heard wrong already. Pronounced at Kaos. Yeah that's you know where that comes from Chris. Denham probably Chris Chris. Dental read something. Richard Aachen fills wrote and Richard fels writes in his annotated bibliography of cows. Whitetail he writes. It's arrived with house and I asked. I'm friends with known Richard for twenty years. Richard where they come from he said well. I talked to Neil Carmody and and And I visit Neil Kearney nursing home in Tucson every couple months I've been I've known for twenty five years I asked Neil. Where does that come from the cows and he says I don't? We knew somebody that Spoke some French and he said that's probably how it's pronounced so that's where that's where that. Kaos came from completely bogus. There's no question how to pronounce his name. There's a huge question help people wanNA refer dear. That's maybe different. I think that those two subjects have their own evolutionary death. They do okay but go on you. Call whatever they want as if our guest here says cows dear he's referring of course to puzder. It's really sad. I know where in I would say linguistical or eighty mile. Edm logical history. Do I know of a word where we're after learning how to pronounce it correctly? Ninety five percent of the public not only refuses to but militantly refuses day. I yeah they get what riled up the most cows your people I would call them. I Call I call them. Cruiser for a simple reason the people that introduced me to them and that. I hung out with one hundred them with I. That's what they call them. I actually had Jay Scott say cows on his podcast one time when I was on it and I was like. Did you. Just say what I thought you said so. There's also like you know. It was a spirited debate around. Sika sick right which confuses people because I think sick of black tails anyhow sick Elliott. Cows Elliott count to put the name pronunciation to bed elliott cows. When he wrote the checklist of birds in North America. He added a footnote. He's an ornithologist. He was mostly shelter. He'd never kill the deer. Someone named after him so he really really wasn't a deer guy. He was really good ecologist but he wrote the checklist of birds in North America. And he has a footnote where he explains how to pronounce his name. Now he does. It's a seat. And he says C O W Z. Cows that's a lie not ally than black really okay. Here's a two hundred to help. Makes a footnote in their book about how to pronounce her last. It was a footnote on a bird species that will also cows. Iae Those Nishi He was explaining. We're that we're that name came from. And he was writing the book and he was explaining how his name was pronounced pretentious. So you're right you're right is cows right from Elliot. Can you write? Bought OUT THE DEER. Yeah we're talking about. Yeah he's right but so you say that there was someone who is who just had made huge contributions to outdoor education entertainment had podcast had a TV show and did so much for the industry that some deer biologist wanted to name a sub species after him career. Odi Kolia Semio's Ronel candidate so we go in the united on the time machine and we go one hundred years in the future and we get out and we talk some deer hunters and they're talking about. Yeah we're we're all Jack. Because we got tags for these rene deer. He'd be like reneged. Dear nobody was Rinella. The guy's name was Renault and they truck and say I'M GONNA call it Rene Day I die. You'd be like that's my dear. It's kind of weird. That was like named to honor me and named Honor Elliott Calcio. No you know what I'd say I'd like to do. I totally understand what you I don't think so as I understand. But there's a twist to that story. So Elliott cows in Elliott cows. His Father Samuel and his grandfather. Peter can you? Did they pronounce the cows? He was an ornithologist not a deer guy but did he like Muse on like Did he was he like? Oh and there's this little shit deer running around or I'm not sure if well he he did he wrote Quadrupeds of of our kinds of deer. Zona I think he wrote about it. I I like that word kinds. We talk about some species and races and he wrote a paper kind man. I like that whole series kinds of so. He's written about all kinds of mammals and deer to but not in detail. He wasn't really a dear person in detail. But there's a twist to the cow story so he elliott cows in in at least two generations back Pronounced it cows But he says that back in France and how many generations that would be. We're talking about seventeen hundred. He's a Frenchman from the other names. French and so his family originally came from northern France moved to southern England and he says in that same footnote when when they moved to southern England the name was was change was changed or bastardize in and they started pronouncing it cows in France. It was two syllables. Kuwaiz Dad's which into for the deer as and so if people are going to argue that that's their basis for Saint Coups Than WanNa hear him saying coup as dear switching to get around all them like hard hitting Arizona Flat Brim dudes and be like Kuwait. Yeah two minarets in these coup as Kelly held out until you found a reasonable out I think contrary and I need to find a way to get out soon as there's some people elliott cows family back before him that spelled her name C o w es instead of you in the middle they put Cotwo because they were tired of people. Mispronouncing it coups. Probably I have a newspaper article about an uncle of mine. No my father's uncle hit a accidentally crashes car into a policeman's car an Irishman named Philip Toomey and Philip Toomey went home and got his pistol and came back and shot and killed my dad's uncle newspaper article about it in that article. My family is R I N E L L I so sure in the article or the art okay and that's the only place. Yeah my dad. He grew up with his grandma pulling that she kept the clothes in a box that she pulled him down and show everybody the bloody shirt with a bullet hole in it. But the article about it describes him as with our NFL ally so he perhaps right how come in the way that names Morph and change. Yeah what PRONUNCIA will I mean? How do pronounce his last night? I don't know. Did he say Rinella or did he have some all doing it? My my family is originally from deaton Switzerland in the seventeen. Hundreds in two miles from Switzerland has heffelfinger Heffelfinger Switzerland. And there's Heffelfinger is back there now and they spell it the same way which is kind of unique names do change when they switched continents and things but still felt that way last on Elliott cows. Do you understand what was his thing about. Levitation have years that I've read that. He was into levitated levitation. No I just read that. He was probably some stupid like wikipedia. Page in delimitation. No you can get. I bought that publication for like ninety nine cents online on kindle. I don't know if it's available other place probably other places but it's a short thing is more of a paper than book but they make it look like the book and it's really entertaining the as a scientist. He's talking about well okay. People don't believe levitation but basically I I. We should hold out the idea that there's a lot of things in the natural world we don't understand and we can't explain in future research will probably explain it and he kind of felt that way about levitation that we don't know what it is now he'd been totally swindled by people who are levitating in front of him but he said you know we don't understand it now but future in the future science might Might unravel what that's all about. So people don't have any problem of leaving in in Central Africa force or gravity that lake if he took the earth and you spun it when people levitating because the centrifugal force he was talking about these forces as being understood. And we just don't understand that one and he said everybody in the world doesn't believe in limitation except he says Christians. Of course I mean they have no problem believing that crisis ended into heaven through limitations so so the Christians believe in limitation. So they're open to the idea that's right. That was his his tongue in cheek but he talks in there about he. He ends it kind of odd. He talks about how his wife which he refers to Mississippi in there until the game for now he doesn't know how to you gave up on that so he talks about his wife and a friend and big Oak table and they put their hands on the table and they tried to move it in. The table started bumping and moving by itself. And you totally convinced that they were doing this. And they pulled away from the table and the table kept bumping and and being agitated with nobody touching it and then at the end of that kind of bizarre story. Maybe he's getting senile at the end of his career. The end of that story says and therein lies my theory of Tele Kinetic limitation now by non totally convinced. Though it's an interesting read it's pretty entertaining is short this is. This is a question that cannot be answered to my satisfaction I'm going to phrase it in an annoying way. Why do dear lose their antlers evolution early or how does it happen when it happened? Why did they evolution early? Why should I say it's annoying? Because you can't go like I don't know why you could speculate about things that mayhem right. There are some good reasons lose. Antlers you break a tie got a new set next year. Your Grades Your Horn. You don't get a new set. No you don't but they're not going to break as much as times though you'll broom the tips off and get sinusitis. Would that really drive no not alone? I don't think alone but you think if you're over wintering and you're trying to make it through winter on her. Schwinn win range and through deep snow. Be Nice not to have a move so big bones in your head. I mean it'd be an advantage to to losing those during the wintertime. Beat the hell out of trying to kill you. Know Tell you what the answer is. Probably Oh is let's go nutritional saying signaling the end you've heard about that work it it gives you an. It gives the animal and annual expression of its physical condition. In its fitness for females to select the animals are able to acquire the most resources grow the biggest antlers. Because they're they're luxury organs. They they grow after the body has been satisfied nutrition. Yeah so the difference between driving a car or having a picture of a sweet car used to have it. Sounds like a personal story. That was okay. But but here you've got an annual expression of of How fit you are and it's up to the minute and and getting bigger every year you don't as a yearly yearly Moose. You don't want to grow this gigantic fifty inch Antlers but here annually as your body rose and as you get no more nutrition and then maybe become dominant you can you can express that and say Look Ladies Look at look at I got horned. Here's the problem. With that. Horned animals have the same luxury. They just keep growing right. But there's some times where like a two year old bighorn is GonNa wind up having the biggest horns ever as like a big ass. Horned bighorn old They service the deer family evolved in Asia bogans evolved don't aware probably Europe someplace and so the animals get on these different evolutionary tracks. And you ask characteristics that just developed independently and and now looking at them now. They may not make sense when you compare them like what you're saying if they just had they just had different Pathways there's a pro coleus in in Asia. Some fossils were looking at a set of fossils. It looks like at least that was the conclusion. Some of them shed their antlers every year and some of them didn't in that forum really into that thought of as maybe being the root of the servant family of the deer family gods you. There's right at the point. Where animals have these things on their heads in their dropping off every year or not dropping off every every year. We had a really really need the kind of expression of the the you know health. The animal being represented in in the antlers Sam Bates Producer here in meter. She shouted furious first. Meal to your buck and it was a really neat book and everything about it from my look at the deer was like boy. This is a mature dear. They aren't that big. And they're kind of an interesting formation and You could relate a you know a two year old year next to this probably three or four year old year and the two year old year would add bigger antlers then when he started dressing the deer the deer had been. Shot the year before there's also leg injuries front leg. Injuries will produce non-typical point on the same side as the front leg. Injury rear leg injuries. You say that like opposite no not always but I thought it was always. I didn't know his front front leg is the same side. It's called the contra lateral effect and and so the rear leg or left Rue. Lego produce Messed up Antler on the on the right side the next year. So a lot of theories are like some kind of counterbalancing which doesn't make a lot of sense. Some people some say well the back licking his injury and he's damaging that opposite side. Antler but I think it's more neurological. I think it's the way the right brain Manages left side of the body and vice versa. I think it's something with that damage to the left. Side of your leg is neurologically affecting the other side. Okay so tell me why they how they lose their antlers was going on one. May you kick ass. You got some antlers you fighting yes I mean you picking off you. Pick up the animal by the violence and then and then the the After the breeding season to Saas ruin levels mostly to Saas a lot of other hormones. There's this big orchestra hormones rising and falling throughout the year and a in deer but really just astronauts a driver and after the breeding season testosterone levels. Plummet in its that that plummeting of destroy. There's this this certain layer of bone cells between the temporarily material. And the top of the pedicle. This called OSTEO class. And they're real sensitive to hormonal. Changes Dawson erodes. Those Osteo class in just fall off. They must be some strong sons of bitches though. Right think about you can hear like you've seen dear like you could hit a deer on the antler sometimes. Break the skull in a bus. The school in Ham But then dropping testosterone a hormone shift will cause whatever that glue is falls off and doesn't take that long. I mean he's kicking November. Twelve months later he falls off the opening and grow new and then a couple of months prior to November. You could squeeze the tip of those antlers off your hand your blood on your hands. I've number guys have gone up. I remember the circumstances begonup grabbed dear to drag it and had to Antler come off in. Their hand is happening. Shed antlers quicker if they're nutritionally deprave or they get sick or something no really call. That messes it. Just Kinda messes with hormone system and may lose their saucer may go down quicker just because they're kind of sick. What do you think it takes You know people talk about areas of big bucks and in order when I was like coming up as a young man. Every excited about the genetics. That place got great genetics. Right right you still hated it all the time and then we talked to some guys. You've done some work with Matt Coffin. And his colleague Kevin Kevin Monte. Kevin Montana looks at nutrition and they've done studies of taking deer from supposedly Shitty. Genetic areas are supposedly stupendous genetic areas. Yeah work and changing diet to match diet of deer from areas that are contradictory to that meaning. Like you take dear. Area that spoils the shitty genetics and put it on the same diet as dear from area to suppose the genetics and Longbow holding out looking exactly the same Yep and he got into. We discuss like not only is it that animals nutrition but it's the nutrition of its mother when she becomes pregnant right and his aunt. Whether he's going to be a stamper. Buck could be decided by the condition of his mother when she becomes. Pregnant can yeah. It can be decided to raise his mother right before she comes pregnant the condition she's in when she becomes pregnant. Epigenetics that probably genetic. Maternal effect is what Kevin Research talked about. Probably the EPA genetics. That is kind of a new field are finding some not we. But there's some amazing things where an animal has genetics and passes on the genetic code and we always thought of it like Gregor Mendel Mandela and genetics was just like whatever jeans you had. That's what God expressed in the young. We're finding out that environmental influences like nutrition can actually switch jeans on and off so genetic code doesn't change because it can't change God which genes get expressed and turned on and off can change depending on if you've got Good nutrition or poor nutrition and some really amazing things were looks like it's actually genetic effects but it's the genes are the same. There's just more different ones are active really amazing making stuff certainly not my expertise but google stuff and that's probably what's behind this. Maternal effect where the condition of the female can can actually affect the antlers of her male offspring. When they're mature because it's got enough -nough gas for certain things to kick in and get it turns on its methylation process and I only saw that to sound smart because I don't know anything about them with election process but that's the vehicle In in the DNA transcription that turn genes on off. And that's what's at the heart of that if you took. What's your theory on this? Why hasn't someone done yet? Get Yourself Cup Likud year them up to Iowa what happened to him to die. 'cause they don't like it because it's to get bigger and bigger and nobody's done it that. I know because CW don't want to be moving animals around the again we had A. We had a conversation with someone at someone who does some work with Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Tom Was CW. D just like the whole thing of like moving out Don. Yeah do we need to move up much? I mean we're still over the damn place rolling unfinished work man. Yeah but that's a that's a concern to The the habituated elk out of the state and they had that That lucky out that somebody chose to feed now at the veterinary research station. All I reject US Well he has full full so they they bigger they would get bigger. Yeah I don't you know there goes. I don't like the good question. What they're pellet do whether you get like a rusty red coat in the summer which we normally don't get there. They've been so separated and they're good. Legitimate SUB-SPECIES ARE smaller. We did some Genetic Work Boondock rocket and pope in young patriotism genetic work that I orchestrated with some real geneticists where we find a genetic marker that will identify cows whitetail deer from other white tailed deer. So you could bring me arrack a skull plate in we test that until whether it's cows white tiller not boone gratin pope in younger using that to keep their record books clean now someone enters the new world record cows white tail and if it's the skull plate that GRANDPA had the attic and GRANDPA said he shot itself of Tucson. You build their back and this happened and we do genetic tests in line that yeah family stories sometimes get twisted and chains. And so we've done that and we found some of these animals are not cows whitetail. So they're not they can't be included. That's the bomber man. Someone gets us about the Bug Rashad Elbert Alberta and the buck shot in Arizona. No that's what it is. We have this thing where we were. You wanted to bring up some neanderthals. Yeah I I a bunch of the NFL favorites interested. I think is just you and I are in the same boat. We're interested spectators in what the scientists are doing. The reason I'd be the reason. Many Andrew Tall man is into is because in my life they have gone from these reports right and these crude like a beating their lady or the Rock and dragging her home kind of thing to being just increasingly complex and sophisticated. Oh they were free divers. They built a raft now. They were avid free divers. They had art. They liked to carve things. I was trying to get cal. Put a thing. Cows Week in review or I had a whole joke crafted out. For Calvin. You wouldn't use it waiting for the story where it was revealed that neanderthals had laptops because every story about near dolls now is like they were just great. Nice people smart people the test this out by every time. You see somebody eating oysters. You Stare at Amigo Unia Andrew. Two percent of our genome. Well I'm a little bit. Well do you have you done. Twenty three me. No did the other one. I'm a little less than less than average on the NFL Rogin. I had a good laugh. Joe Rogan. He's like he's having prised eyebrows. I think the Brow Ridge is real heavy use saying but you know miniature. Hamad that they found in Floors Island. Yeah all yeah floor. Florenz think missing a syllable but three feet tall at maturity. They're running on almost all NEANDERTHAL and Dennis Sovan gene earner genetics. I mean they come from that Nando stock not from modern human stock. Yeah at one time you could walk. He could have wandered around southern Europe Mediterranean area. And just like you could wind around here and be like. Oh there's a bacteria there's why Taylor is accused of your holidays off it together. You could arom the land in run into like different kinds of your folks. Yeah different kinds of folks Who des some amount of love making multiple multiple types of paper just came out with Andrew Del showing that wasn't just one kind of unique population where they interbred and spread out from there but it was a real complex over a long period of time thousands and thousands probably hundreds of thousands at least tens of of years a whole bunch of different interbreeding events between and that he is really messing with people and you are not into it. People from one spot. Would you like to pick up all their species? I you're saying it's past feel like you're you've tried to call me out here. I've probably back in the day. Ben Like I'M GONNA go check out that other camp sure we'll articles anyway. Yeah I'm going to bring some cookies over there and we're speaking past tense. Hypothetically back that all that wasters muscles and the free diving crew kind of small with the was it the unattractive modern humans though that were more likely to breed with an I would love to know man that like Nollet when they sat around talking or are they talking about how you know like. Was it like you were curl? Magnin or you know in you hooked up with a Neanderthal. Was like quiet about it right. Wow you know. Did you break it up outlawed? No time I got along with time. She activities engaging in some day. Yeah did you have any burning observation about him? No I just use like them. I liked it the ages back in the name of the Earth all and then for a period of time. Someone said neander tall because the the cows coups deal. I know Germany Yup Yup Valley but now but now all the papers have the H. Back in so that was good because it was kind of awkward to say Nanto. I never know what to do. In those circumstances man like how windows which I've switched to pronghorns trying to switch. I'll meet PRONGHORNS. Oh it confuses it. Yeah you don't believe me no way. Hell Yeah and I've given it to people and they've registered confusion really has so funny. You'll label your packages pronghorns. I do not they don't anti low Cap Americana piece you know there was eighteen. Eighteen different types of primitive and pillow CAPRA Brown family now. In North America eighteen million years ago for eighteen years eighteen different types of pronghorns some had corkscrew horn cores. Some had three horn cores on both sides. Six total real lot of them had two on each side. I wrote a A field guide. It's called a bestiary of ancestral until cap rates in its illustration role debt yet with some other machine man. Well that's interesting stuff. Eighteen different kinds of pronghorns and they all went extinct except for the American problem that we have. And so we had illustrations that Randy. Bob did illustrations of each one of those skulls. And then I wrote a paragraph which was anything we knew about it and we had a map of where the fossils have been found so it was like a little field guide if are usually run divert yet Florida. Oh there's different kinds all we over there now if you a name it and hines of Anti. I should be on the same shelf. Start getting depressed about all. The animals aren't around anymore. Hours to to help not be depressed. I remind myself that the largest animal to ever exist larger than the biggest of Brontosaurus or Arjun to source the biggest animal to ever have ever existed on earth is alive away now is still here right blue. Well we're in the good old days the biggest animal aber here. Now the good old days of mega-fauna we've got him now looking at my kids like dinosaur books and yet MacMahon kind a little jealous about that. Oh so jealous I just delay is and get your brain wrapped around the scale I want I want to talk a lot about whether they'd have been a good eating or not. One of our kids thinks they would have been one of the things they wouldn't have been very good eating. Yeah Reptile Okay Moon. This is a little bit. I WanNa talk about wh- like you really mixed up in the wolf world I am. I would put it on the Mexican Wolf. Recovery Team in December twenty ten and was on it for two years resigned in December of two thousand twelve And with my resignation letter added a a about a fourteen page report citing all the scientific process flaws that were that I saw in the writing of what was supposed to be the draft recovery. Plan that time that we put together for a couple months later. The remainder of the team When had submitted a report had so many flaws as I pointed out fishing. Wallace couldn't do anything with it. They couldn't they couldn't make that their their draft plan Just stakeholders weren't involved state agencies. Were just seen as a maybe stakeholders. We'll we'll talk to you later and it went nowhere so back way up. What's the problem? What happened we have? I mean the walls were like continue in Alaska and there was no late place without him. They ran right down into Mexico and people mistakenly re just think about the Mexican Wolf as Gist the the southern part of a blending of different wolf sizeable sub species throughout the continent. We used to have a twenty-four Wolf subspecies in North America. And Ron noack. Boil that down to five. That seemed ecologically different in different areas. What were those Arctic well there is a Acid in Dallas which is a big Canadian wolfing and Alaska the new bliss which mid continent most of the United States in the town. Bailey I which is the Mexican wolf and then there was the Arctic wolf and I can't remember what the other one the Arctic wolves they run white fair bid. Yeah and so you're Canadian Canadian. High Arctic Yup Ellesmere Island and that sort of thing and so still these are kind of groups of Wolves. It kind of makes sense. The Mexican Wolf is not just the the southern tip of Big Wolf distribution that blended Freely with new bliss the other wolf to the North the Mexican Wolf evolve in the Sierra. Madre like we were talking about white tails and that's another reason. Mexican wolves are physically different. They're genetically different. There's most genetically different Wolf subspecies when they look at genetics but they weren't just in Mexico in they were only in Mexico and the Sky Islands and southern Arizona and southwestern New Mexico that was the historical range of the Mexican wool some of those no county oldest overlaps with coups dear cows right and goes crazy and Google Turkey and so and evolutionary ecologist will talk about some species. Just have more support. When there's a whole bunch of other unrelated animals that have that same distribution? It just makes sense that there's ecological forces that allowed those animals of different types to evolve a little bit differently of the sub species off in that same range. You have this like very different type of turnkey merge quarry different types of deer buried Quail and if you look at ecological zones plants in the plant community that that whole Mitering OAK woodland. They call it that. The Sierra Madre is is typical of is different than the Morgan Rim in northern Arizona Northern New Mexico so it all makes sense that all of the about twenty different allergists and ecologist subscribe ascribed the Mexican Wolf historical range like that southern Arizona Southern New Mexico all your Modera- now some of the Mexican wolves. Skull measurements have have shown that some of the Mexican wolves would disperse up into the mcgann rim. Like you'd expect you again ramps central Arizona in the national forest in central New Mexico. Some of Mexican wolf dispersed up there. Those wolves in northern Arizona Northern New Mexico were were measure by larger the skull measurements. Everything were larger. And they some of those who dispersed down mcgann Rim if you look at the The Google Earth and you just zoom out you see. The Sierra madres is big green patch where the Mexican wolf was and then the southern rockies is another huge green patch in between there there's this healing National Force mcgann Rim with Non Wolf Habitat to the north of it non wolf habitats south of it so Mexican wolves dispersed up. Bigger Wolves. New Bolus disburse South and those Wolf from skull measurements those wolves in Central Arizona New Mexico are intermediate in size actually the the males group better with Mexican wolves down there in the females group of the northern Wolf notification that they were intermediate between those two forms so we did have some geographic separation which accounts for the genetic differences physical differences in Mexican wolves. They're not just Some sub species that's blending in with all the other subjects. 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Most of the public thinks are pretty cool. They WanNa see wolf back and so as hunters. We really want to position ourselves on the other side of the table from them and say no. We don't want to bring back because They eat elk and we want to hang out and light impact our elk hunting. So there's some real challenges with bringing wolfback but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. We need to have programs that work with livestock industry to make sure those operators in it's usually only a few operators that are impacted heavily but those at our impact heavily. We should programs to help them out. We can't say well you're a grazing on public land and we're GONNA bring back. We don't care about what happens to you. We need to work with them. Or it's not gonNa work at all and as far as the game populations you would. When we're we have wolves. We have some hot spots where wolves have impact L. Populations and we need to have management flexibility to do something about that when that happens predators has to be managed just like we manage pray but in a lot of areas. Wolves are back on the landscape and they're not heavily impacting L. populations. So I think we need to make room for for wolves on the last game. They belong here. You've been involved in state wildlife for your career. There's a lot of tension between sees a lot not seems I mean there is. There's a lot of tension between Federal Wildlife Management Decisions State while they management decisions Do you think it's fair to say? Just look at American history. It's fair to say that if there was no federal oversight of endangered species and there is no federal wildlife involvement. It'd be fair to say that it wouldn't have happened. We wouldn't have done any re- we wouldn't have done any active reintroduction efforts that would have been at this point in time that would have been spawned by the states talking about wolves. Yeah I think I think it's something that's been like for better or worse sustained and when I talk poorly about the when I was on the Mexican Wolf Recovery Team and that effort we reinitiated that in two thousand fifteen and in December. Two Thousand Fifteen and Fisher wallops. Did it completely different? Fish and Wildlife Service invited state agency people to the table in a series of workshops to develop a recovery plan that they would they would then right and that was a whole different process because we had a neutral facilitator who was in charge of a population viability analysis instead of impasse. Efforts it's been some some academics that are very advocacy oriented very protectionist oriented and they were in charge of writing the recovery plan which didn't work repeatedly this the recovery team that. I was on the fourth recovery team to try to write a revision the Mexican Wolf Recovery Plan. There's one written in eighty two. It wasn't adequate. It didn't have recovery criterion. Everybody agreed it need to be rewritten. They kept failing. Because you can't get a handful of academics with a row protectionist kind of attitude together and have them write a Mexican wolf recovery plan explain protectionist attitude not ever wanting a wolf to die at the hands of man no matter what I mean just like we want to craft some recovery criteria that will make it nearly impossible for them to ever be delisted in leave the protection the federal government which is not what the endangered species act is native species. Act is is that we're supposed to. It's like an emergency room. Some just ready to are almost close to dying. You bring in an emergency room and you just get them well enough so that they're not GonNa die and then you hand them over to Put Him in hospital bed and you put them in the hospital and then you monitor them and then you improve their health and dangerous species act is supposed to be like that with species are. Were just ready to lose them. We do everything we can to save them up to a certain level where we're comfortable that they're not no longer in danger of extinction and then we pass off to the state agencies and they manage them like all the other carnivores they manage. Yeah I've often joked that in some with some species it's become the my favorite animal protection. Act IT IS. It absolutely is and does such a disservice to the two thousand other species that are listed on the Endangered Species Act. We've got species. That legitimately are gonNA blink out. We'RE GONNA lose. And we've got four thousand moles in the in the western Great Lakes. And we've got people writing scientific papers and filing lawsuits saying they're still in danger of extinction and we've got fifteen hundred in the northern rockies that are delisted got sixty five thousand in. Alaska Canada hundred ten thousand wolves worldwide. And we can't deal with the wolves in the four thousand wolves in the Great Lakes region when the recovery criteria was about fifteen hundred wolves and we got four thousand was really fifteen hundred hundred Olsen. We've got four thousand. People are still suing saying they're still in danger of extinction and we can't do that. We need we need to work together on the other. Two Thousand Species. That need our help. Where legitimately GONNA disappear from the Earth? Jim What do you say to and I'm sure you've heard this argument because I I have many times as well. There's a value in having this animal on the endangered species list because it brings attention to the endangered species. Tell you it's going to be. Is that provisioned written into the Endangered Species Act. Oh says Oh and you've heard this argument but I mean at some point. Doesn't it kind of matter? What the access. Oh God. Yeah absolutely absolutely. But it's like well you nobody's GonNa care about the whatever snail or butterfly if we don't have the grizzly bear. Yeah it's going to. That doesn't even kinda surprising but I haven't heard that this if this is the kind of thing that's going to the going to ruin. The Dangerous Species Act is going to destroy the endangered species. Act some of these people pushing and pushing pushing at these ridiculous notions that we need to still have federal protection on species. Like Wolf is just going to fuel the fire and we'll have the endangered species act completely renovated. Oh It's already happening. People get like some state agencies get so frustrated and certain livestock groups get so frustrated with the conversations around Grizzly bears and wolves that when they hear. It's like what happened. It's kind of like the level of damage that happened to the USA around the spotted owl as you turn these animals into something where the animal becomes symbolic of a kind of foot-dragging and then the act becomes that it's just like a thing used to wield power about I really bear management and people. Just get pissed. Yup MUST NOT GONNA END. Well not an well. We need to get these species up. So they're no longer in danger of extinction. Which is what the act is and then pass them off to the state agencies and Ed banks led the wolf recovering the northern rockies. He's fishing wallet service a quote Unquote Fed. He told everybody the entire time says our goal is to get these up above the recovery criteria that everybody agreed on and pass it off to the states. They do a great job managing wildlife. And that's what my goal is to recover and they're in the rockies. That's the thing that happens That is troublesome. Is this this thing that it's the feds? It's the Fed's key proposing it get delisted in the Great Lakes Nice. The feds proposed the Grizzly Bears. But people were like. Oh the feds. Might your friends are the ones saying? They wanted to put them up for delisting and they get sued and they're not allowed to because lawsuits. Yeah it's like a handful of like anti hunting groups that kind of masquerade as environmental groups or do both serve both functions. What is the most hurtful when you go to some of these Fish Wildlife meetings. And you have you see the argument being played out before you is is. They're trying to kill them. All state agencies will just kill them on they'll be on the endangered species. Yes in in. They don't believe in like well. Listen we have this mandate that says this is what we are supposed to do and we just spent a Shitload of money off the list. Just want to say how familiar are you with how we got rid of wolves in the first place and that timeframe right I make if people were trying to kill wolves now they would be gone. There would be gone gone because we did it very very well. In a time without satellites without GPS without two way communication like we just use a little bit of poison. Now Yeah and what? What a lot of pro wolf groups and I. It sounds funny because I'm pro off to but but a lot a lot of the protection groups won't Acknowledge. Is that the contributions a sportsman through the decades have brought back the prey base in huge numbers that allows us to recover wolves and not just a a better kind of conservation ethic that the population has which is true. It's the prey base. We couldn't do it if if we didn't have all this pray. Jim Talk a little bit about your article Were you the article you wrote re talk about the public's enthusiasm for like trophy cascades trophy cascades also becomes like everybody's favorite word. Yeah they were afraid. It's another thing like trophy hunting that that far out paced the science behind it. So you only play trophy cascades. We need to do that. And then talk about the whatever. He's like all hopped up on the idea that all it takes a couple of wolves and the rivers run clear again. Yup cascades just just basically a terrific level in ecology is like the the vegetation's one traffic level. And then you may have elk representing the second trophic level above that eating vegetation. Then you have a third trophic level which might be wolves which Eat the the Elkin so these three trophic levels in the idea of trophic cascades is that if you've got a situation where you've got elk. Really impacting overpopulated. Elk impacting the vegetation. And you've got too many elk. You bring in wolves that third trophic level. Wolves impact the elk in such a way that that it relaxed it relaxes the grazing pressure on the the vegetation and you have more vegetation. You have this recovery of vegetation so the idea is adding to that system cascades this effect through the trophic levels and we have actually the addition of wolves affecting how much vegetation so that's basically trophic cascades so in in yellowstone they put wolves in ninety five put fourteen wolves one year and seven. The next and the wolf population grew but that was nineteen ninety-five. Can I interrupt you to use a quote from that era? Yeah it was in your article quote. Oh around someone described yellowstone three thousand four hundred square miles of paradise surrounded by reality banks. So he's he's the leader of the wolf recovery in the rocky mountains very pragmatic awesome guy and so everybody is talking about what's happening in yellowstone and getting all excited about whatever's happening yellowstone. That's what's GonNa Happen Everywhere when we put wolves everywhere but yellowstone's a different deal and so that's where he said that paradise pause surrounded by reality and that's so true because what happen in yellowstone no matter what happened yellowstone. It can't be replicated on on a working landscape with people trying to make a living and working on that landscape it's not yellowstone everywhere so the trophy cascades in in. Ill don't release. A will the ninety five early five years later. Some scientists went in there and they measured Aspen growth in the northern range in they. They concluded that Aspen growth was responding. And since wolves really had an impact of the number of al Qaeda that they they surmised or they theorized that wolves were just chasing elk out of areas. Where Wolf would were Wolseley chasing l? Where the ELK would campout and feed and repairing areas and places so this scaring elk around by the wolves was distributing the grazing pressure and causing a a response in the Aspen. And that that. Just kind of speculative paper Was just like the trophy hunting thing. It lit a fuse on on the Popular Media and everybody started talking about how the wolf was a savior of the environment. All we did was add wolves in now. We have vegetation responding. We have butterflies coming back. We have bees coming back. We have songbirds beavers coming back the yellowstone we have vegetation responding and created this narrative based on just a little bit of a measurement of of Aspen. In some areas. In the popular media went crazy. They captured the imagination. They love that story. Can you imagine now not only do we do? We just WANNA put wolves back and landscape but now we have to put wolves on the landscape to renovate all of this degraded ecosystems. And it's all we need is to add wolves so can you imagine if they had opened up hunting and yellowstone would've done and they saw corresponding growth and aspens. You News Cycle of. Do you think the news the Bee champion. One hundred. The cascade right anything can can can precipitate trophy cascade like that and so so this firestorm popular and then a youtube video at just about everybody has seen. He's got forty million views that some British producer With David attenborough. Kind of narrow man. You put her in a shot. He's old Brit. Like do Makasi where they kind of guy rid of nature. One of those guys at the helm of nature video and people like I buy and that's what happened. He starts out the video saying and the deer and they show these elk running. It says in the deer get scared out of and so it's full of errors but it's got forty million views and you talked to anyone on the three thousand people sent me that video. I Bet I bet anybody on the street will when you ask them about yellowstone wolves say all of that in the title of the video was When Wolves Change rivers and it was about them having such strong ecological effect in yellowstone ecosystem that river courses were changing. And Vegetation's going back. The problem with that whole story is that it's not just wold. They released the the wolves ninety five shortly after that they had a hundred year drought. The worst drought. In one hundred years they had a couple of years in that next decade with with heavy snows At that time that that knocked elk recruitment grizzly bear populations increased so much that they documented three times the elk the calf L. Predation by Grizzly bears then. Then before we had wolves there was hydrological changes in yellowstone. We have the fires in one thousand nine hundred. Eighty eight huge changes. Their Moose populations were dropping cougar population for coming up all right. See you hear very nearby. Yes in the GALLATIN. Yeah so you hear that. The they made their whole upper madison and Gallatin beaver recovery areas So the the wolves didn't bring the beers back. Biologists did and crates and released him and the beavers coming coming upstream and damning is part of the hydrological changes in the in that ecosystem that that was really caused. By the beavers beavers have pop Razzi following them in champing. Everything they do and so. It'd be resented any credit for any. That's right so we'll get just add. Wolves just add wolves and really what we're talking about whether it's a beaver wolf is heavy. Heavy handed management and also we. We were killing cow. Elk off the park in the wintertime in hunts as a way to try to trim the herds. That's what we do. We kill females in those Cow Tags probably held little longer than we thought has the L. Population was going down. So there's a storm of things that caused the population to go from nineteen thousand down to less than four thousand in some people want to pin all that on the wolf and the wolf did all that and it's just such a simplistic thing that happened with but a lot of research has come on now. Matt Kaufmann who you had on the show a publisher paper and twenty ten where he did a more robust more widespread more scientific analysis of of Aspen in that same Mary in the northern range in in showed that Aspen wasn't recovering actually really even despite a sixty percent decline in the population. So at that point. It wasn't just a behavioral thing. We've got sixty percent decline in the in the still can't document an aspen recovery. And so it's a really complicated thing. With a whole bunch of factors feeding into it and to sit back and say wolves changed yellowstone and renovated the whole ecosystem is is the fallacy. But what everybody knows but when someone wants to come in they WANNA come in and be like. Let's have a normal reasonable conversation about this. You get accused of being like Anti Wolf. Be Your court one. Your things he wrote. I can remember if you're someone else who said we don't have to make the wolf out to be a hero to justify recovery. That was David me. Why can't we just talk about it in a way I'm asking you? Why can't it just be talked about in a matter of fact way like is this the right thing to do? How do we do it correctly but not have it be that we need to spin? These wild yards is too polarized. We've got everybody at the polls and nobody in the middle when it comes to wolves and and I think that evolved because of of Wolf recovery in the northern rockies and wilder getting and they crossed two thousand two I think they they exceeded recovery criteria and weren't delisted by Congress unfortunately until they were five times the original recovery criteria in the you have these these these groups suing to keep wolves protected on endangered species act even as the population grows and grows and grows. I think that create so much pulled a one poll that you had a an equal opposite reaction the opposite way with people pulling equally hard and equally unrealistic things that they're saying on the other side in just got so violent everybody's still in their corners and yet of meeting in the middle and just talking neutrally about it the opposite of year trophy cascade person the equally ridiculous opposite is your person who is just in love with the idea of surplus killing. They love it. They love it right. It's like other extreme these turning. It's the IT'S THE MSNBC Fox News split is trophic cascade surplus killing. What is the middle like? If you those now your business. But what is the middle ground layoff not only is? It hasn't doesn't need to be your opinion articulate in opinion that based on all of your exposure to people of a different dependence about. Will's imagine if you will the most sort of like moderate kind of level headed consensus minded sentence about collection of sentences about wolves. There's there's not many people there but I feel like I'm close. I feel close to that because the wolves to me are not on a pedestal as some religious deity. It's going to save the world and I certainly don't hate wolves. Wolves are just The largest member of the car were family and agencies managed. Fox's we manage coyotes. We could manage wolves the same way. They're just another native species and if we just look at them that way and say was bringing back onto the landscape in when they're causing some Monday acceptable losses to livestock or an acceptable losses to native other native species like deer. Then we're going to manage them. We bring population down in that focal area. Solve that problem in and L. areas where they're not causing any problems and they're just restored landscape for good I don't know why more people can't look at it that way but they don't. It's very appealing and I know I mean they're just they're just big dogs they're just another. Canaan out there. I don't know why they have to be so special. If you imagine looking into a crystal ball take the northern Great Lakes. Will we get? Will they be delisted to stay eventually? Yes I think pretty soon I mean I don't I don't know how you can justify leaving him on the list so I do think maybe this year they'll be delisted. Does it does it. You don't do politics. I don't know if you need to answer this. You probably can't answer. This does will that happen? Independent whatever happens with the next administration like does it have. Its own life course. There's any being very top down pressure on that. There isn't a lot of top down pressure because I think there's safeguards against directives like that. There's there's influence there. There's no way you can take politics out of endangered species management and certainly not wolf management. So they're always gonNA be some political pressures and political considerations that's just part of wildlife. Management is not just not pure science for sure it's it's application of science and social science to manage wildlife. So I think in the future. They'll be delisted they certainly will be what what we can't do. And I've heard people say this is okay. I agree with delisting northern rockies. I agree with the listing of the Great Lakes. But we've we need wolves in more places and so we need to keep them listed in all of the other places until the recovered. It's not what the essay does if they're not endanger of extinction anymore in two big populations than we don't. We don't just moved polygons around the country until we get wolves everywhere. We want little bit disagree with you because those ideas weren't around at the time they were delisted but it makes it It makes it better and easier to work being. If you look at Grizzly bears. It makes sense to me that we would just we would gradually as it's acceptable d. List some Rice. Some idea of population groups Rather than saying that. You know rather than like undoing the whole protection across the entirety of the lower forty eight. We'll be like okay. This region's cool that reactions cool but then regions cool. That reaches not cool. What you're talking about is those are so population that were all part of the recovery and so once population doing really good then definitely. We WanNA take that one off off the table. We want to deal with that and we do want to keep those other ones because they're right from the start part of the whole recovery plan dodge whereas in in gray wolves the whole recovery plan with three populations of one hundred than it was increased. Three populations that one hundred fifty in the northern Great Lakes area there in in we reached and exceeded that by five times in the western Great Lakes. It was Fourteen hundred in Minnesota where they're just threatened in than it was one hundred more in Wisconsin in the in they exceeded that Along time ago and so those are two independent recovery processes and. They're both been satisfied. Grizzly bear example. That one that they're delisting is just part of the overall recovery plan Do Ball one for you. What let's pick a comfortable number twenty years twenty five years. What are some states that might have population wolves that don't now if you just? Kinda look at the the bottom line of trick question no no the biological aspects and the political aspects. If you'd asked question twenty years ago there have been some real surprises. Yeah right right to move Washington you'd have been like California people then like bullshit But here we are so you know Nebraska right is Nebraska going to be like. Wow who thought now has a wolfpack you'd have to say. Utah and Colorado. Because we've got wolves going into those naturally owing those areas as it is and I think and maximum recovery. We've since two thousand nine. The Mexican wolf populations been increase in average twelve percent per year. So that the mixing. We'll population's going up and up and increasing towards recovery goal and yet. I still get emails. That say the Mexican Wolf is spiraling towards extinction. Press the click the button here to donate to help save wolves against the the evil state and federal agencies and I think maybe they have McGrath sideways in their office or something and they. They hung up. I think they hung up wrong because the graph is going up so I I do feel that Mexican wolves are going to be. I don't know one recovery will happen because we're still in the early stages recovery but that situation is GonNa look a lot better. We're going to have more wolves in in Mexico to recovery areas in the US and Mexico has been a true binational Process in then we're going to have some of the Rocky Mountain States expand into those rocky mountain states and and really I think a lot of this angst and polarity is going to relax once. People have those around and realize they're not that bad and if we have management ability to take care of problems were they. Were they happen? I think in cases where wolves have been here a while like for example Alaska and Canada. Not that big a deal. Because they've had them for a while and I think the all this stuff will will settle down twenty years or so. That's a really funny thing about friends of mine. That just really don't like wolves I got. I got friends is hate walls and Because they what they what their belief of what they'll do the game populations but the sun's Bishop Hunting Alaska right right. I might say like it. Yeah that's another thing that you mentioned David. David meets have been working for sixty years. Which sounds bizarre but he has. He's been working ellesmere island every year on Arctic Wolves for sixty years and and he he's very pragmatic about wolves. You would think some of the devoted your entire their entire life to to wolves and Wolf Biology. But he's very pragmatic he's he's the one that says Wolves are neither saint nerve centres except by those who tried to make them. So they're not. They're just they're just Kanaan's there and the public perception I find is so skewed as to what a healthy population as and people like to have this very unrealistic idea. of how animals spread out on a landscape. So if there's a healthy population it I see them where I go and like we're looking at this big picture. Hell's Canyon. That is chock full elk. But there's no elk in the picture and people like something is wrong and I've been at these public meetings. I had so many really cool wolf encounters in the catch Marya catching ranger district and Go to public meetings. And it's like doom and gloom and wolf population is going down and the hunters killing them all and the Damn cattle-owners associated shovel shut up crowd. It is because people aren't seeing wolves when they're I mean. Some of these people were obviously not walking on trails but they said they were right but they're not seeing them when they're walking their dogs. They're not seeing when they're driving their cars and he's seen long tailed weasels. Either that's not. That's not charismatic. And I apologize. I think they're very charismatic. With a lot of non game biologists last night and They're big fans of the weasel family goes on are we argued about. Jaguars and ten years. Now I don't think so we're not. Jaguars argue about Jaguar. I know I know you WANNA restored. Jaguars I I was involved in workshops recently talking about Jaguars Jaguars as want him to wander back and be cool. I I think everybody most everybody does yet that we put them in crates and turn them out with the workshop where there's three advocacy groups. That got together and wrote a big manuscript advocating translating from Mexico into the Mogayon Rim and the healing halls Ponderosa Pine forest and was never Never Habitat where they stayed the southwest Arizona. New Mexico has always been places where transient animals came up. We haven't documented a A female with young Jaguar in the US in Arizona New Mexico. Anyway for one hundred twenty years. There hasn't been a female since one thousand nine hundred sixty. Three and much of the bunch have been killed in photographs in Santa no females. But what about if you went back into you know like we don't autos time yeah? We don't know that and there were there were Jaguars and there were some females in some reproduction but sh- but this is a marginally if you look at the native American they have like no Jaguar Motif Jeremy not part of any other stories. That tells you that tells you something about how common it was in the southwest. It's interesting and so we definitely want to make sure they can come back up and go back to Mexico they want there was Alan. Rabinowitz is probably the most famous Jaguar. I and he he started Panthera which is a wild cat. grew worldwide. He's established Jaguar conservation areas in refugees and South American Central America devoted his whole life to Jaguars and an when he talked about. Fish Wallop service was being pressured by some environmental groups to designate critical habitat in Arizona New Mexico and when he heard that he wrote op Ed in in New York Times and said this is ridiculous. Ridiculous waste of money that we've got a one hundred seventy eight hundred seventy three thousand Jaguars. Estimated from Sonora down to southern South America and in some groups are saying this little dry arid land on the northern end of their distribution. Where they really just kind of moved in and moved out. Historically that is should be designated. Critical Habitat and critical habitat is part of the endangered species. Act IN AND HABITAT to be designated as critical habitat has to be critical to the conservation of the species and the fishing wireless overdid population viability. Analyses were they included Arizona New Mexico and then they executed them and as you would expect with one hundred seventy three thousand Jaguars elsewhere that didn't change probably extinction At all in Mexico itself has four thousand eight hundred Jaguars estimated and that increased in the last decade Arizona Patriot. Man I want American Jay Worse. Well the groups that are asking for translocation up into errors in the central Arizona New Mexico at that meeting were some people that were involved in the conservation. Jaguars in central Mexico where they are to in those people said you're a- you want to translate how many that's more than we estimate are in this northern most population of Jaguar. You can't you can't be taking our Jaguars I mean. We're trying to conserve and their thought. Wow Yeah so. And then that got a lot of people looking at the carpet scratching their heads like Oh. We didn't think of that. We were just GonNa get some Jaguars and bring them up here. I didn't I never knew that I should research more read up on. Moore's how often how many right okay. Elliot how many were really. I'd like to know. Send you a book. Like what is the sort of I've seen? I read a book Not Too long ago and it was. It was just a exhaustive catalog of everything that could possibly have been a reference of grizzly bears in the southwest So Mexico got up into Colorado covered base. Colorado south was sort of like it was just thing after thing like it from back the Spanish You know early you know Frontier Day. Ranchers archeological record like everything that pointed to. Where were they? What was it like I? I'd like to see that on Jaguars if there was if it wasn't fact that that's always fringe and eight straight up. This is just like the the natural edge of their habitat. And just like you. Might you know the amount lion might. Kinda like flirt with the Alaska border. Now and then you'd hardly call Alaska like M- outline country But now and then one might turn up and they do if that was the case. I guess my ask would be that. We take the necessary steps to let that continue happening. Definitely yeah I agree with that percents. Just not Jaguars crates up into the Ponderosa. Pine that that seems really weird that but for from a from a from a armchair expert not even at an armchair curious person that strikes me as being a little bit much Alan Rabinowitz. I mentioned when when fishers was trying to designate which they did designate critical habitat in Arizona New Mexico for the Jaguar like the third third attempt. Ellen Rabinowitz did his New York Times article or OP. Ed saying that was the most ridiculous thing in the world that you're wasting money about critical habitat and all the effects of critical habitat in Arizona. So here's a guy that voters whole life. And he's like at bank with wolves he just pragmatic. He says that's not critical to the conservation the species but there's no doubt everybody wants to make sure that They're able to still come up and use that habit that come back because I've been in in mountain ranges where I know. There's a Jaguar in that mountain range a mountain island in this pretty cool just to know that my son and I one time carried a Heavily into that he shot off a tall mountain in the coyote mountains and in the dark through the thick brush and we had a bloody heavily on her shoulders. And I knew that. The Jaguar Jaguar that we knew about was in that part of the mountain range at that time element of interest. When when you're out in the same way wouldn't right. When we left Sonora this year you know. The article came out. The camera traps catching a down. There group also they got them in that King Ranch area down there in Texas. Yeah there well. Into what's funny is they're spending all this version of things is it was funny there. Is there like doing a Lotta ocelot recovery work and then it turns out that sort of the strongest You know the strongest populations are coming off. These large cattle ranches. Yeah there's two population ones on a national wildlife refuge in another one is on the Atari ranch and I think bring ranches and that's a private lands and you've got that they'll mandatory who had passed away recently I've been on that remitted just committed to ocelot conservation and and so or just get very much. Yeah it's very much private lands You've you've got to be managed on landed Mike to us and in. There's a graduate student at that I know from Arizona. This down there working on awful. That's right now but I'm no Mike who's run that program since I did my masters degree down there see but obviously that that species has a little bit northerly range than than the Jaguars. It's kind of well. It's kind of the same in Arizona. It's kind of the same historical records that come up through central Arizona so but not not a breeding population in Arizona like there is in Texas South Texas or breeding. They have sixty some odd. Yes that they know are out there there but Arizona. It's the same thing it's one here and one there. And we have so many cameras in in those mountain ranges now that we're capturing what sneaking around in there I are there any in Arizona right now any Jaguar no oh Jaguars yes right now. As well as of September I know there was one around and it turned up its high turned up on social media. Got Shot Scene Shot in Mexico back to Mexico and got shot. Yeah there's there's a different one that when I was down by Douglas in September similar told me but when that was down there and I love I can say where I probably won't see where but in the US got picked up by trail camera hounds. Men found no a lot of camps. I had checking out a lion. That one hundred killed because of all the mountains checked out at the game and fish office and he was he got it out of the sand. Rita's and he said he had a bunch of cameras in the Santa Rita Mountains. This was several years ago in. I said Oh you got a bunch of cameras. Ever get one of them spotted. Cats he goes. Yeah L. Time. Well that's cool. I'd like wow I mean hunters have trail comes out. And they're getting Jaguars on the trail cam. We've talked about this before a book called candid creatures and it's like a trail cam images And there's a Jaguar standing in the snow all right. I've seen only image. I think maybe like the only image in existence or something of Jaguar in the snow. There's a you're talking about the historical record of Jaguars. We have that list. The in fisherman maintained of Jaguar records going all the way back but a lot of those even in more recent times are like like some of the Jaguar record that some of these groups were using for their modeling was some high school teacher. Saw Black Jaguar across the road in Black Jaguars phase. It's the jungle phase. It's an Amazon thing you never have black. Jaguars in Mexico into the north. Never so someone says they see a black Jaguar. We know right away well. It wasn't a Jaguar. Not sure what it will. It's hard to sort. I mean there's there's a thing of like measuring the validity right right so we've got like three classes class one class two classroom. I forgot what the criteria are. But it's to rank them for for veracity. I know how reliable they are but some of those some of those are are just sightings and some groups will want include those as reliable and not so. You have to be careful. And that's why I tabled like that too important but there's a book called Borderland Jaguars you have not seen that one. No Okay I'll send it to you raw Carlos Lopez consolidation and Dave Brown in there. They they have probably not as complete as our list but they have an account of the historical records of Jaguars. Let's see I need to get my opinion straight. I like them to get pounced and scratched. Kinda scratched by one kind of just delete Gar. You'd have to the Noah Jaguars out there right across the packs. Man Scratch Rub some dirt in there to get it infected through run scarletknights. Yeah Kellyann final thoughts questions. Yeah I do I got you got a question for you is talking with a buddy of mine This morning on my drive back over here. And and he's I was checking in with them because he's he's old forest service dude and he's getting grant money and he's getting a lot of in-kind cash for habitat work on his place. This county is Retirement job as he calls it learning via a farmer. And he's Plant Mancha plant species and and Setton his place up for Mueller wintering habitat and upland game. It's big loves loves the pheasants and quail and he is kind of run me through his list of what he's got coming up and some of his successes and failures and I said well. Yeah a lot of work now but hopefully you'll figure out how to strike a balance. He's like yeah. I don't think so to be honest with you. I'm not sure any of this shit supposed to be here. And he I mean he is working with ecologists and he's got a litany of really good contacts from his past life but that did just make me think of this question like do you find yourself ever get kind of bogged down in the management of things like we've been manipulating landscapes and species for so long. Do you ever can get to these points where you're sure I guess. Screw it because it's not. We're so far away from what it was or what we think it was. I don't think so I mean I don't. I don't think I get get that discourage there's there's things like in the wolf recovery world where I I just wish. It wasn't a constant stream of litigation and Litigation Litigation. We should just get on with the business of conserving Carnivores and managing them as As species but but I I I'm optimistic. I think there's just a lot of really good work going on right now throughout the West Habitat wise and and Movement wise and everything. That's Great Phil. We address elephant in the room. That Basic Janas has nothing to do with this show anymore. He's moved on to bigger. They ask us. Once again is out on assignments making content. It was assuming dude I was coming into the all busy with we got a lot of. We've got a lot of irons in the fire. Yanni's ten in new couple of lack. Well yeah he's always fishing but You don't have any have your thing that makes the honest sounds anymore. I was thinking about bringing it to to Nashville next week so we won't be there either. No Stab me changes damn thing. He's not even like a co host. No so he's a he's abandoned. He's moved on. He's he's left the nest. She's busy. Yeah Yeah if you were cracking. The whip makes a macy's Steve outdoorsman. He's missing some good skiing though. Isn't it just sent him a note about that? Yeah in the NAR man. He's in finally. I went to high school about forty minutes south of there in college about an hour North West. They're so familiar with that country. The all everything's skiers say is annoying but I did hear one good on the day. Someone's talking about the powder and he said that. Nar Isn't gonNA shred itself Blower POW. Jim Help figuring what? What's your favorite of all the pamphlets and books he read. I think you you said that your masterpieces the Jackboot recipes. Yep Yep and that's even available as a pdf on my website. Dear nut DOT COM Just the WER DOT COM I've got a whole bunch of PDF's at our magazine articles that I've written. I've got the southwest West Brower. You copy Which is cows tailing desert mule deer in the southwest northern Mexico That's available on the website and Not Instagram Jim. Dear Endear has an. Espn like John Deere Act. It's a little John. Deere logo the Photoshop Mueller. Do I'm GONNA come down and do a Jack Rabbit hole with you man. Yeah definitely definitely. I'd like to guarantee that we get tons of them right without trying very hard. Well no you drive around tons drive around. Shoot them out of the window and we don't do that. We WALK IN JUNE. Walk the Lane. So we don't walk back with tons but it's a fun hunt. You bid up by Mites quite a bit with those. No no mighty. No they've got they've got a couple of internal parasites like the The bought fly larva thumb-sized. Cute when they get under the skin subcutaneous. It doesn't affect me. Yeah but we in our junior Jack Camp that I developed for kids ten years ago we bring kids together and we Joe Jackrabbit. Show Mata Clean and cook the Jack Rabbits we find. Some of those big ugly bought fly larva under the skin and we turn to a liability into a positive when we we started we those Ryan No. We started weighing. We gave out an award for the largest bought fly nice. The kids are going to have one one. Minute won't one online. So when you grab them see I thought because you guys down where it doesn't get cold in the winter enough when you grab your arms. Don't just give now by now. And we hunt him. They're open year round but we hunt them October to March just season. So we keep the meat and there is less echo parasites on them echo years yep as opposed to the endo inside or outside like the like the insects on the outside. But it's not not bad at all. I mean you just don't when you grab them they're nice and clean and you skin when you've got some really nice clean meat. That cooks up like beef. Great wow how what did you learn? Fill like on a one to ten. We've paying attention. I was a solid eight. You guys say he has ran the gamut so many things were talked about you soaking it up soaking it up most fantasizing about my neanderthal mingling in this hypothetical situation back he. He went back behind that curtain for awhile. That's right out against imagining like a Romeo and Juliet. Forbidden Love Phil Search History is. That's a movie I know tonight. I'm GonNa want it tomorrow. Try to tap into Phil's Incognito Search Jim Heffelfinger outdoorsman biologists man in the man in the arena a man in the arena when it comes to wildlife and wildlife management and integrate advocate for hunters and wildlife. Thank you for joining US troop. Thanks great beer.

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