19 Episode results for "Nucleus Accumbens"

A New Cause of Depression: Light at Night [60 Sec Psych]

The Carlat Psychiatry Podcast

01:31 min | 9 months ago

A New Cause of Depression: Light at Night [60 Sec Psych]

"Today on sixty seconds psych a new cause of depression light at night. Evening Light is associated with so many health risks, cancer diabetes heart disease that the AMA has a position statement on it. Psychiatrists may need to pay attention as well. It's been linked to depression mania and poor cognition, epidemiologic studies, and this animal study confirms that link researchers randomized mice to two hours of blue light at midday, or at night after three weeks the evening light, but not the afternoon light caused depressive behaviors specifically an Adonia and helplessness even though. Though it didn't change their sleeper. Circadian Rhythm next they dug into the biology, and the effects were not due to changes in the visual part of the brain. Instead the researchers linked to a brain circuit that includes the mood part. The nucleus accumbens the bottom line. We've known for forty years that morning. Light Helps Depression, but evening light can make it worse. Particularly the blue wavelengths that are so prominent in digital screens and energy efficient bulbs these days. For more information, check out our February, Twenty nineteen interview with James Phelps on dark therapy or our recent June eight the podcast.

Depression nucleus accumbens James Phelps AMA sixty seconds forty years three weeks two hours
How does alcohol make you drunk? | Judy Grisel

TED-Ed: Lessons Worth Sharing

05:04 min | 1 year ago

How does alcohol make you drunk? | Judy Grisel

"Ethno this molecule made of little more than a few carbon atoms is responsible for drunkenness often simply referred to as alcohol ethanol is the active ingredient in alcoholic beverages. Its simplicity helps it sneak across membranes. A Nestle into many different nooks producing a wide range of effects. Compared to other clunky molecules. So how exactly does it cause drunkenness? And why does it have dramatically different effects on different people to answer these questions? We'll need to follow alcohol on its journey through the body. Alcohol lands in the stomach and is absorbed into the blood through the digestive tract especially the small intestine. The contents of the stomach impact alcohol's ability to get into the blood because after eating the pilot X. factor which separates the stomach from the small intestine closes so the level of our call that reaches the blood after a big meal might only be a quarter that from the same drink on an empty stomach from the blood. Alcohol goes to the organs especially those that get the most blood flow the liver on the brain. It hits the liver. I am enzymes in the liver breakdown. The ALCOHOL MOLECULE INTO STEPS FAST. An enzyme called. Adhd turns alcohol into hostile to hide which is toxic then. An enzyme called L. D. H. converts toxic acids to hide to nontoxic Acetate as the blood. Circulate the liver eliminates alcohol continuously but this first pass of elimination determines how much alcohol reaches the brain and other organs. Brain sensitivity is responsible for the emotional cognitive and behavioral effects of alcohol. Otherwise known as drunkenness. Alco turns up the brain's primary. Break The neurotransmitter Gaba and turns down. Its primary gas the neurotransmitter glutamate this makes neurons much less communicative and uses Phil relaxed moderate doses fall asleep at higher doses and can impede the brain activity necessary for survival at toxic doses. Alcohol also stimulates a small group of neurons that extends from the mid brain to the nucleus accumbens a region important for motivation. Like all addictive drugs. It prompts squirt of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens which gives users a surge of pleasure. Alcohol also causes some neurons to synthesize release endorphins endorphins. Help us to calm down. Response to stress or danger elevated levels of endorphins contribute to the FAURIA and relaxation associated with alcohol consumption. Finally as the livers breakdown of alcohol outpaces the brains. Absorption Drunkenness Fades away individual differences at any point in. This journey can cause people to act more or less drunk for example a man and a woman who weigh the same and drink the same amount during an identical meal will still have different blood alcohol concentrations or this is because women tend to have less blood women generally have a higher percentage of fat which requires less blood than muscle a smaller blood volume carrying the same amount of alcohol. Means the concentration will be higher for women genetic differences in the livers alcohol processing. Enzymes also influence. Pac and regular drinking can increase production of these enzymes contributing to tolerance on the other hand. Those who drink excessively for a long time may develop liver damage which has the opposite effect. Meanwhile genetic differences in Dopamine Gaba and endorphin transmission may contribute to risk for developing an alcohol use disorder. Those was not truly low. Endorphin dopamine levels may self medicate through drinking? Some people have a higher risk for excessive drinking due to a sensitive endorphin response that increases the pleasurable effects of alcohol others have a variation in Gaba Transmission. That makes them especially sensitive to the sedative effects of alcohol which decreases the risk of developing disorder drinking meanwhile the brain adapts to chronic alcohol consumption by reducing. Gaba dopamine and endorphin transmission and enhancing glutamate activity. This means regular drinkers tend to be anxious. Have trouble sleeping an experience less pleasure. These structural and functional changes can lead to disordered use when drinking feels normal but not drinking is uncomfortable establishing a vicious cycle so both genetics and previous experience impact. How a person experiences alcohol which means that some people are more prone to certain patterns of drinking than others and a history of consumption leads to neural and behavioral changes.

endorphin dopamine Gaba Transmission nucleus accumbens Nestle liver damage disorder Adhd Pac Phil L. D. H.
Wisdom In Hindsight

TED Radio Hour

52:00 min | 1 year ago

Wisdom In Hindsight

"Hates guy here and before we start the show quick thing a lot of you ask how you can support the Ted Radio Hour and the best way to do that is to support your local public radio station here at NPR. We're launching our annual end of year fundraising campaign and the clock is ticking to get your contributions in so throughout the month. I hope you'll take a little bit of time time to reflect on what this show has meant to you this year and then if it has been something please go to donate dot. NPR DOT org slash. Ted Radio to support your your local station and thanks. This is the Ted Radio Hour each week around breaking Ted talks technology. Entertainment Design Design. Is that really what ten. I've never known the delivered at Ted Conferences around on the world. If the human imagination we've had to believe an impossible thing. The true nature of reality beckons from just beyond those talks those ideas adapted for radio from NPR Garros. I'm so happy to hear your voice again. Go as you're saying I've missed you. Talk to this is the writer Pico. Ir I think you're probably now. This is the third time you're going to be on the show. I think so. Yes really glad I can be platform again. He goes known for his travel writing and for part of the year he lives in Kyoto. I'm actually technically. I'm in suburban Norris of twenty miles from Kyoto and Yes for really the last twenty seven years. I've been spending the majority of my time in this little rented two room apartment in Nara Japan. And it's just a place that you Kinda fell all in love with and that you spoke to you. I guess just spoke to me. I my first day in Japan. I was just on an unwanted layover flying back from in Hong Kong to a New York City whereas living in one thousand nine hundred eighty three. And in the course of that layover. I just walked around the airport turn of narrator near Tokyo gear and at the end of my three hour work I had decided to move to Japan. I felt at home there that very first morning and I still do even now and I I guess after you move to Japan you actually Got Into Ping Pong right added. That happen well. My wife is a very keen enthusiast. WHO's yesterday health clubs and we used to have a health club just across the street from us and she saw that I never move? Basically I kind of lump ish unathletic a creature. But she remembered I'd Played Ping Pong a little boy growing up in England so she invited me to come and look in on the Ping Pong. And within three minutes I was Lost Ping Pong for life much. Pico is not exaggerating he plays Ping Pong just about every day and I think what was interesting for me. Initially really was that. I've never really been engaged with Japanese society. But as soon as I was in the Ping Pong Club. I was part of this group of thirty Japanese. I was the only foreigner and suddenly I. I had to learn how to fit in the two Japanese community. You get to this club you start getting the pingpong long and one of the things about this is that I guess is is it an unofficial kind of rule that it's doubles it's not singles Ping Pong exactly exactly and then we choose a partners by lot so every five minutes were changing partners and part of that is so that nobody loses uses along if you happen to lose with one partner six minutes later. You're winning with another. And when we play sets its best of two so that they would often be no winners loses people very happy for it to end in a one one tie every day when I leave the Ping Pong Club after in an hour and a half of furious exertion. If you asked me did I win or lose. I couldn't tell you I'd probably paid seven games. I couldn't keep count of whether I won or lost because nobody keeps track of. Who's winning the Games? But that stands for what the whole Ping Pong Club is about. which is the sense that everybody anybody should leave? In an equal state of delight in Japan. It's been third. They've created a competitive spirit without competition. Here's PICO IR on the Ted Stage. No all of you know that geopolitics is best followed by watching ping pong all the two strongest powers in the world where fiercest enemies until in one thousand nine hundred seventy two ooh. An American Ping Pong team was allowed to visit Communist China and as soon as the former adversaries were gathered around some small green tables each of them could claim victory and the whole world could breathe more easily through ping pong diplomacy clohessy. What I learned though at my regular games in Japan is more what could be called the inner sport of global domination sometimes known as life as a boy growing up in England? I was taught that the point into the game was to win but in Japan I'm encouraged to believe that really the point of the game is to make as many people as possible around. You feel that they are winners. So you're not careening up and down as an individual might but you're part of regular steady chorus in Japan. A game of ping-pong is really like an act of love. Learning how to play with somebody rather than against her win. Occasionally I come back to this country and I play my English archrival. The only thing I notice is whether I've won lost if you ask me. How has your game today? I won't say I had found no. It was a great game or whatever I might say it was a close game but usually I'll just say Oh beat me eight to three. Oh I B nine two four. Yeah and somehow just by saying that I'm taking all the joy out of it. It's much better to say it was a wonderful game. Wait you you have an English ping pong tribal. I'm sad to say yes and we've been prosecuting. This furious rivalry we even Once played in front of six hundred people in San Francisco Not Delight. I didn't think they want to see to aging English guys flail around on a ping pong table but we enjoyed it. But I would say that my friend friend is fiercely competitive and so it brings out the competitive instinct in myself and that really means that after a game with him. I'm very rarely happy because even if I defeat him all I'm thinking about is next time he's going to get revenge or there's only one thing way to go from here and that's down and of course if I lose to him I'm literally really up all night. replaying how did I miss that forehand slam in the game or whatever. It's radically different in Japan because at least in the context of a club or a community community the most important thing is everybody to be working together and feeling and thinking together and unlinked. And there's a sense in which to think about winning. And losing is to impose a binary system on a world and lives not binary and if I were to ask ask you guy. Have you won or lost in your life. You would probably think of certain things you've achieved in certain things you haven't but you couldn't say I've one or I've lost. Life is full of unexpected moments. THAT SHAPE US and change us from a game of ping-pong to life altering events that can change our narrative and our identity. And if we're lucky we might pick up some wisdom along the way so today on the show. So we're GONNA explore wisdom in hindsight how we often learned the most important lessons about life in ways. We never expected and just quick personal personal note after seven years of being your guide on the Ted Radio. Hour this episode will be my last new one and as you might imagine over these past ask seven years interviewing hundreds of incredible Ted Speakers. I have received a lot of wisdom which will get a little bit later but for now back to the Pico Ir and finding meaning in Ping Pong. I mean I I love this idea that that winning and losing are on these Binary things that. It's just. This is so much gray right. Life is a series of. Let's say win the losses and draws And it's the kind of collective experience of those wins losses draws that defines our life. I love that idea to so much I exactly. I think it really liberates you because I think trying very very hard to win is not a winning strategy and is not the way you come upon happiness. I remember when I was a kid. I was determined hanging to conquer the world. I'm going to achieve this and this and this and this As most people in their twenties are and then at some point I notice will this is like Xenos Arrow which never reaches its target in other words. Let's say I won the Nobel Prize tomorrow. I'd be thinking why haven't I won the Pulitzer Prize. Why haven't I got mccown? And it never ends. And of course that's a recipe for disatisfaction. And the other thing I noticed which speaks to what you were saying so wonderfully just now as I get older is that it's really hard to assess what the victory is and what the losses in our lives off. The bad news is rarely as bad as we imagine and good news is not as good as we hope and life is rarely as simple as our ideas of tall playing Ping Pong in Japan reminds me why choirs regularly enjoy a more fun than soloists in acquire. Your only job is to play your small part perfectly to hit your your notes with feeling and by so doing to help to create a beautiful harmony. That's much greater than the sum of its parts. Yes every choir does need a conductor but I think a choir releases you from a child's simple sense of either offers you come to see that the opposite of winning isn't losing failing to see the larger picture. I once lost everything I earn in the world every last thing in a wildfire but in time time I came to see it was that seeming loss that allowed me to live on the earth more gently to write without nodes and actually to move to Japan and the Inner Health Club known as the Ping Pong table. Conversely I want stumbled into the perfect job and I came to see that seeming happiness can stand in the way of joy even more than misery he does. I mean it's such a simple idea. It's this simple game. And like through that prism you were sort of able to to gain this profound insight exactly as I get older I notice. It's the tiny things in life. The Trivia stuff that we overlook that really brings illumination nation. I think when I was in my teens and when I was a college again I thought I have to read this way deeper philosophy and I have to think about the meaning of life and have to grapple with all these existential questions Russians to to bring to the floor to come to terms with it and delight in the fact that is the the most ephemeral silly seeming aspects aspects of life. That are often instructing me. I would say that Ping-pong has has taught me these life lessons more than all the solemn seeming bookstore ideas. I've entertained over the years and I like it because of course it's also experiential when I'm talking to you now about winning and losing in the Ping Pong Club. I'm really talking about how I feel when I go home every day and does no arguing with speculating about that. I know that I come out every day regardless of the school. Radi pretty refreshed and invigorated and eager for the next day and of course applies to everything whether it's being being a radio host or playing tennis or being a parent or this is what content is to be freed from the sense of me against the world that's writer Pico. Ir His most recent book is called a beginner's guide to Japan observations and provocations. You can find all of Pecos talks at Ted Dot Com on the show today wisdom in hindsight stay with us. I'm Guy Rise in you're listening to the Ted Radio Hour from NPR. Hey everyone just a quick thanks to two of our sponsors who helped make this podcast possible versed to capital one capital. One knows a life doesn't alert you about your credit car. That's why they created you. Know the capital one assistant that catches things that might look wrong with your credit card like over tipping duplicate charges or potential fraud. God and then sends an alert to your phone and helps you fix it. It's another way. Capital one is watching out for your money when you're not capital one. What's in your wallet? Wallet Capital One DOT COM for details. Thanks also to Google fi a phone plan by google. Google fi is made with features that people actually want like unlimited data in the US and abroad. So you don't have to worry about overcharges. Google also works on your favorite phones and switching is as easy as downloading loading the APP learn more at Fi- dot google dot com when allocate city Maryland was hit with a deadly flashfloods. Incredible amounts of rain in the elegant city area. People thought we couldn't happen again. And then the location of this is worse than the last one and the reality of climate change pit neighbor against neighbor doesn't now to embedded from NPR title and your telephone number monitored and recorded it's the Ted Radio hour from NPR. Curtis it's Guy Roz. I'm the host of the show. The guy is a way to talk to you for about a week now Well thank you so much for for doing this. My pleasure my pleasure. Thank you for on the show. Today ideas about the wisdom we gained from sometimes unexpected places. Can you please introduce yourself so my name is Curtis Kiro Arrow. Everybody Calls Me Wall Street For the most part and tell me where you are right now I am in Pelican Bay state imprison. How old were you when you were when you were sentenced to prison? I was seventeen years old. And how old are you now. Forty one forty one. Curtis I mean you were a boy and you were a child when you were sentenced to life in prison. I guess you you're part of a robbery Korea and And somebody was murdered but I have to imagine now at the age of forty one you probably during the recognized that seventeen year old boy so you were A. You probably don't even know who that was if interesting because that's true right along part I can't Hannah Magin me doing things that I've done then but I've never forgotten what life was for me as growing up as a teenager in Oakland California. You know going through the struggle through now. I'm not using it as an excuse but it did play a big role always and you know I never really. Viewed more situation has been helping other than poverty stricken never thought about. You know we'll get the job. Wasn't they have a white picket fence go to college. You know that none of that never even crossed my mind Just just never even thought about it and I never seen before. So far I was concerned life was about you know China make some money you know. Criminal activity was the way to do that. Because I wasn't educated and you could do it the way. Yeah that was my life. Curtis Carol picks up the story at a Ted event that happened at his prison and the reality was that I was growing up in the strongest financial nation in the world. The United States of America while I watched my mother stand in line on at a blood bank to sail her blood for forty dollars this to try to feed her kids. She still has the needle marks on her arms to this day to show for that so I never cared about my community. They didn't care about my life everybody. There was doing what they was doing and take what they wanted. The drug dealers robbers the blood bank. Everybody was taking blow money so I got my by any means necessary. I got mine and I soon learned that finances imprisoned room more than it did on the streets so I wanted in one day. I rushed to grab the sports pays a newspaper so my cell. He can read it to me and accidentally picked up the business section and it's so romance it. Hey youngster you pick stocks and I said was that he said is the place wife over keep all their money and it was the first time that I saw a glimpse of hope a future but it was just a glimpse I mean. How was I supposed to do? I could rewrite or spell so twenty years ago I did the hardest thing I've ever done in my life I picked up a book and it was the most agonizing time on all my life trying to learn how to read the ostracize from my family to homeys. It was rough man. It was a struggle. Little did I know I will receive in the greatest gift I never dreamed of. So so how did you start to sort of learn about stocks because you for ninety nine percent of people outside of prison. It's complicated. It's complicated for me. So how did you sort of start to understand how they were like. How did you figure that out? Oh man it was a puzzle so when I started to read I became a lot more interested in trying to discover what it was and so I see the markets how people watch soap operas storylines so my goal was on everything research everything by stories about piecemeal peace and different articles get full example. I would see an article that says blue chip stocks. So I'll care. The article in the paper said Blue Chip Allah pace that on like vision board like I had made a violent cardboard Dan I'll be reading day later. Whatever I would see? Some this is boots have stopped for companies that have pay dividends or whatever and I will kick out the dividends and so what I was doing was piecing together articles and story. And that's how I learned about route to market particularly just the company's Rust on her first. And you know so. What did you think you would do with it? I mean presumably. You were not able to invest stocks Masumi while you are in prison wall so I have people who invested stock market. Clark put money in and I just told them with the by and went to sail and things like that right okay and and once you started to invest. Did you have a plan like. Did you know what you'd use it for so my plan was if I learned about the stock market I can make money. I can get a lawyer and I could get out of prison. That's what I tell you know. After I had lost my trail and all that I remember my lawyer saying you know man you got road basically you should have been found guilty. She For the case you know in thing if nothing else robbery so that was kind of a my head and I didn't fully leave. I WANNA get out of prison. What I believed stocks could help me get out so that was my belief system? Imagine that there were probably other inmates in maybe even guard. Who are like you know like? Hey Curtis why. Why are you wasting your time with this stuff right right but but to stocks made me feel good it made me feel values also a part of my life which is always? It's about getting in trouble and doing things wrong way and you know when it came to the stop. The stocks was a bus structure was about discipline so the study in the Stock Market Howard all different values that I didn't know that I was learning self worth knowledge. Discipline are now had obligation to meet those on the path in help and it was crazy. 'cause I now cared about my community. Wow imagine imagine that I cared about my community. Financial illiteracy is a disease that has crippled minorities in the lower class nor society for generations generations. And we should be furious about that. Actually this how can fifty percent of the American population be financially illiterate. In the nation driven by financial prosperity our access to justice our social status living conditions transportation in full are all dependent dependent on money that most people can't manage is crazy. It's an epidemic in a bigger danger to public safety than any other issue. Check this out. A typical incarcerated person will answer the California prison system with no financial education. Earn thirty eighty cents an hour over eight hundred dollars a year with no real expensive. This and saved no money upon his parole he will be given two two hundred dollars gave money and told. Hey Good luck out of trouble and come back to prison with no meaningful preparation long-term financial plan. What does he do mhm at sixty? Get a good job. Go back to criminal behavior that led him to prison in the first place. Incarcerated people need need these life skills before we into society you can't half full rehabilitation without these skills. Uh Curtis when you eventually Get out you're going to be prepared to reenter re enter a life that you haven't obviously been able to live for twenty five years It it it sounds like doc this crazy way this experience of kind of having your freedom taken away from you kind of pushed you to think of what a life with freedom can look like and this is what it can look like. I mean you have this body of knowledge now that you can take with you when you leave. Yeah Yeah so let me say this freedom is is a feeling that you feel. It's not something that you have right. 'cause you know as many people in the street side societies Jackie Today Free Katie's mentally you know they got all kinds of drama going on in your dealing with all kinds of problems and issues And I used to perceive she freedom as being physically. My body was in society and I recognize that's not freedom part of it But that's not real freedom. You know the freedom news expression you know freedom to be who you are the yard so no matter what situation you're in and that's hotter place to get to. We did you get my physical freedom back courtesy in your talk you you say that you chose to commit a crime and you take responsibility for that and and the result has been something that's dramatically affected every aspect of your life obviously but Between IT'S I. It seems like you've learned on some really profound lessons. Despite the circumstances that you were born in and the ones you've lived in for the past twenty years so let you say I wanNA say. Prison is not the place for people to come find themselves. Prison is not the place. People can be educated. You can't the only thing that prison provides with people one thing only and that's what you choose to do at that. Time is purely early up to the person that's in prison. I've chosen to use my time. Wisely like some other people a lot of people that are not what I hope that my stories when I hold them my life experiences had will offer young people people. In general particularly young people is that time is something. Anthony learned that you can use anywhere. You don't people often say you know I do not want to prison. You know you might have had a became a person you today possibly so but sad to think that that's the in true that had to happen to me and so I don't want people to who misinterpreted that you know. My Life Story in prison is somehow good to be helping people because it's not not wear these programs programs where we supposed to be helping argues trouble people as part of my goal when I get out of here. I like to think that I've made great use of it the choice People make choices people gonNA have the opportunity to make their choice so I just want to say. They're you know prisoners prisons replacement. Let's Curtis Carol. He's also known as Wall Street. He's Co founder of project feel. It's a nonprofit dedicated to financial and emotional literacy by Curtis will be up for Parole Sim so he could potentially eventually get out of prison. In the next six months you can see Curtis's full talk at Ted Dot Com on the show today. Wisdom in hindsight has some of the most meaningful things we learn can take a really long time to reveal themselves. I've been singing since I was since I can remember i. I remember my first audition. I was probably like six or seven and I found my people so these were singers. Who are really interested in drama? Who are really interested acting operas right from the beginning? When I was eleven I was an altar boy in the Canadian Opera Company's production of Tosca I stay up late? I get to go into this Opera House. They paid my makeup on. They put me in. This cost you to run around while doing something that I absolutely love and then they give me a check. That's how I thought that was really what solidified my love for music. This is injury. biscottis injuries an opera singer and I also worked for the San Francisco Conservatory of Music Music. where I helped musicians use the tools of neuroscience to practice more effectively so an opera singer and neuroscientist so in in high school I got much more interested in in science in addition to music and I discovered Oliver Sacks and so when I graduated from high school I had to make a choice between what I was going to do next and in university and my mother is a conductor and a musician and she basically said go get a medical degree. It's it's really hard. It's really hard to make a living as a musician and You know we didn't. I did not come from a wealthy family. We were immigrants and we had no money and so whatever I was going to do and university I had to pay for it myself. So injury went to school to study psychology and then onto graduate school learning about how memory works how brains recover from surgery and she kept practicing music but she did it kind of in secret grit because I felt like all these other things are working really hard you know they never leave the lab and if I like take our everyday like they're just they're not they're not gonNA think I'm I'm serious than so you know. I felt like that was my dirty little secret that that there must have been. That must have been hard to keep up. Yeah I think there comes a time in every Grad students students life when they realized like okay like now I just need to do. I need to just do this until I can get it done. And and and because the competition is so stiff and So when I really immersed myself into the work of being a neuroscientist identify and I got it done but I it was like like the light inside my soul dimmed a little I was like I was selling something and it just didn't I got really angry. I got really irritable and I didn't like who I became so after injury finished her PhD. She enrolled in a Master's program in music. She spent a summer in Italy performed the classics completely dedicated herself to music and honestly she was kind of relieved to step away from hard science. That is until she realized the neuroscience could actually make her a better singer. So I'm going to say something. I shouldn't say that I'm going to say it anyway The person that was teaching vocal pedagogy. I felt really did not know how the brain learns remembers and the things that I was taught in that class made my eyebrows. Stand up in my forehead like absolutely. That's not the right way to teach singing. And so you know that made me think well wait a minute if like these experts in this amazing conservatory. Sorry don't know the basic fundamentals of you know how we learn motor skills like the isn't there a way that neuroscience could really help musicians positions maybe bring in some nurse would make it easier for me to get better faster as a musician and then I stumbled across this one paper Apor by Valerie Sal impor- and her colleagues Robert Satori at McGill. Because you see in the paper. They showed that there are two regions of the brain saying that mediate getting chills from music and they tracked dopamine in these regions. They're the Kadett. And the nucleus accumbens engrave conscious continues on the Ted Stage. Now you can think Advocaat it as your parent tells you that your behavior has consequences it tracks. How the things that you see and hear and observe and do have outcomes? It sets up the expectation of a reward of pleasure and it ensures that in the future you will behave in such a way that you will seek reward and avoid the things that lead to punishment punishment. The KADETT is awash with dopamine. When you're leading up to the special moment that will give you the chills but when you get to the moment that it gives you the chills? There's a dopamine spike in your nucleus accumbens nucleus accumbens your bff. It's your best friend for life because more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens correlates with a bigger high the intensity of the chills. That you feel from music depends on how much dopamine there is in your nucleus accumbens but the a number of times you get the chills or if you get them at all depends on the amount of dopamine in your candidate. That's what I learned. That's what it means to be musical in just a moment. We'll hear more from injury of his contests about how she learned to tap into the brains of her audience to deliver a more powerful awful more emotional performance. Stay with us on the show today. Wisdom in hindsight I'm Guy Roz in you're listening to the Ted Radio Hour from NPR support for this podcast and the following message come from from the American Jewish World Service working together for more than thirty years to build a more just and equitable world. Learn more at age. Aws Dot Org not. The Chat Bot on Sheila's phone is supposed to ask her questions but when she starts asking winging it questions it center poetry secret dwelling place mysteries held in the dirt. Time fact other plan. What happens when you treat artificial intelligence with love on the new episode visibility a- from NPR? It's the Ted Radio hour from NPR Garros and on the show today wisdom in hindsight ideas about the lessons sends we learned from sometimes unexpected places and before the break we were talking with injury vs contests a neuroscientist who was training as an opera singer. My a teacher used to say to me and my lessons all the time you need to focus on all the notes leading up to the high note. You can't just think about high note and I'm like no that's wrong because if I missed the high hi no. No one's going to pay me like that's the money that they call it the money note and and so you know I I would listen to her and I tried to do what she said but I never really got it until until I read this paper a research paper that show there was real science to back up what her teacher had been saying. The intensity of the chills that you feel from music it depends on how much dopamine there is nucleus accumbens but the number of times you get the chills or if you get them at all depends on the amount of dopamine in your caught eight and and then it clicked. That's what I learned. That's what it means to be musical and I was like that's exactly right if I don't set it up right the audience first of all not. I'm not GonNa have that pleasurable experience getting chills. And you know. I'm probably not being very musical because I'm just essentially not. I'm not creating this tension attention that eventually will be released and change the way I perform so I used to be like on nerves but the high note got to get to the high note booms up there and now I'm like I'm GonNa take my time time even before I started to sing. I'M GONNA stand here until the silence is uncomfortable because what I'm doing is I'm setting up in the brains of the audience. Audience this desire for me to do my job and it makes my job as a singer so much easier and covered of so much anxiety to that was the interesting the thing I used to have so much anxiety when I was standing in front. You know about to start to saying thinking like are they gonna like me. Are they going to like near the knee and then like now. I just stand there and I'm GonNa like the the longer I stand here. The more you're going to like me So neuroscience helps you become a better performer but may also sounds sesame like music brought more joy to your work neuroscience right. Yeah I mean absolutely goes both ways Not only did music may be better nurse scientist nurse. This is maybe better musician but it it is both and I think that you know. Sometimes we just get caught up in so fixated on on one way a of looking at things and that just limits us and so you know when it comes to trying to think of what to study now as a neuroscientist ientist. I started to really always go back to is whatever I find going to be interesting to people. My friends people I care about like other musicians and if the answer is only going to be interesting to the other cognitive neuroscientists at the conference. It's not I don't WanNa do it. it's not something that I I wanna spend my time doing right now but if it's something that when I finally get the results I can share with my musician friends or you know. I can share with my educator friends or I can share share with lay public. And it's going to be interesting to everyone or at least to a subset of those people that are not also cognitive neuroscientists than I think it's worth doing Injury this contise neuroscientist and soprano seeing a piece from the opera TRAVIATA. And if we wait for I think we'll get a spike of dopamine right On the show today wisdom in hindsight and as I mentioned earlier this is my last new episode and after interviewing hundreds of incredible speakers for this show. I'm going to switch around to the other side of the table. And if you don't mind pass the MIC on to the next host of the Ted Radio Hour Mnuchin Maruti. Hello Oh oh hey. Hey how are you. I'm good. I'm good yeah Are you how do you feel. I feel oddly. Calm right would you should. Yeah that's it's great. I know I think means grownup now guy. Yes I think this this great okay. So you're wrapping up your last episode Assode Guy and I Kinda WanNa turn the tables and ask you what strikes you about the last seven years. What are some some of the ideas the people that you will take with you as you go into the next chapter yeah I mean I think that that throughout the seven years have been the host of the show. Every interview is like it's a a journey and every interview is extremely meaningful right like I interviewed you. You're on the show and I remember our interview and it was so it was so great and you were so kind and and funny and warm and generous with your ideas. Thanks and so every interview is like it's Consolo weird but it's like a a a whirlwind romance. I fall in love with everybody. I interview for that power and yet you you kind of have have to because I am there to to bring the to help that person bring their idea out into the world. Because I think that's an idea worth hearing that hopefully hopefully will give our listeners. Something to take with them. They're so many of these conversations hundreds of these conversations that have been those experiences They're few that I really come back to a lot We had this episode that we did on memory and we are invited Daniel comment on. He'd given Ted talk about memory and When I interviewed him he had just returned from Switzerland and I said how to go and he said it was wonderful it was it was amazing and I said Oh that sounds great He said but we left. We left a day early. I I said Oh no what happened. He said Oh no no. We decided to leave a day early because we were having such a good time and I was confused at that point right without well. Why would you leave advocation a day early and then began this conversation about memory and my wife and I both decided not to so you decided to cut short your vacation? Haitian just to make sure that you wouldn't. You wouldn't mess it up that we wouldn't ruin the memory you know you might have had a great day absolutely. Wow depending how you look at it. This could be a mistake. It really depends how much weight you want to give to the kind of memory you. Why does that happen? I mean why. Why do we remember ember things based on what happened at the end of the peak in the end? Yeah actually I think there is a good evolutionary reason for this if you were to design an animal and you were economizing on how complicated the brain of that animal would be. You might say well. I want the animal to store. The pecan he can to slow the end and how long the episode was really doesn't matter what matters is how bad with a threat and and whether the story ended well. That's the animal needs in order to plan the future to decide whether to have that encounter again to avoid at all cost post and it's the very last memory we take from an experience that shapes how we remember it and so as a result he he lives his life that way but he will leave things when he is enjoying it and almost immediately after that interview it really changed the way I try. Try and experience things like if I'm at a party or an event and it's really great okay. I'm really enjoying it. Elif you say goodbye. I won't and not the last person there you know Singing along with the Karaoke and With drink man like I will leave and go home home and go to sleep and just had have great memories of that evening or that experience and I was thinking about this conversation I had with Dan Economist harmonises in four or five years ago now and it struck me that it is connected to in some ways my decision to move on from Ted Radio. Oh Aw yeah. Because it's been incredible experience to be the host of the show for you know into to be part of this world old and I'm so happy you know it's been so wonderful and I'm so excited to hear you take this show in two different direction shen and that's the that's like the way you kind of want to leave a memory right. Yeah that's pretty poetic. I would say. Okay so Danny Conman who else I mean which interviews do you find yourself just thinking about all the time even after all these years Couple years ago we had Elizabeth Gilbert on the show obviously the writer of eat pray love And she that's something really profound in that conversation. Something that I have never forgotten. I think about all the time which is that. We shouldn't necessarily follow our passion but we should follow our curiosity. You know that that is the thing that is going to lead us down a road Towards the things we feel you know that we feel strongly about that brings joy or pleasure or you know inspire us. We keep telling people to follow their passion and I feel like that can be an intimidating and almost cruel thing to say to people at times because first of all if somebody has one central powerful burning passion. They're probably already following it. Because that's sort of the definition of passion is that you don't have a choice if you don't which is a lot of people have one central Burning Passion and and somebody tells you to follow your passion. I think you have the right to give a finger because it just makes you feel worse and so I always say to people. Forget like if you don't have a an obvious fashion forget about it. Follow your curiosity because passion is sort of a tower of flame that is not always accessible and curiosity is something that anybody can access any day. Your curiosity may lead you to your passion or it may not it may have been for. We're quotes nothing. In which case all you've done your entire life is spend your existence in pursuit of the things that made you feel curious and inspired a national be good enough in a lot of ways. That's sort of been a metaphor for what we do on the show because it's really about watching a lot of Ted talks wchs and and just getting inspired by an idea and then building a show around around that idea Wanting and to know more about what he said. I'm going to assume that there are some people who just think because you have interviewed all these amazing people people and had so many hard conversations about so many topics that you must have internalized a lot of the lessons that they bring you too you too these interviews from their talks and that maybe I don't know maybe you're like a super better person in some way because you can I mean am I going to go through transformation guy I guess is what I want to know I mean yes yes. Of course I think what I've learned even from you talking to people who just so inspiring to me that I have so much admiration for is that we are all flawed and complex right every single one of us right at every single one of us us can be unkind unforgiving But what I I. I love this idea that we also change a lot We had we had Dan Gilbert on his he. He's a professor of psychology at Harvard. And he he did a lot of research into how our personalities really changed profoundly over the course of our lives. We don't think that's the case. But what he has shown is that more or less every ten years who we are our personalities. Our values change a a lot. Most of us can remember who we were ten years ago but we find it hard to imagine who we're going to be and then we mistakenly think that because it's hard to imagine it's it's not likely to happen. Sorry when people say. I can't imagine that they're usually talking about their own lack of imagination and not about the unlikelihood of the event event that they're describing. The bottom line is time is a powerful force. It transforms preferences reshapes our values. It alters is our personalities. We seem to appreciate this fact. But only in retrospect only when we look backwards do we realize how much change happens in the decade. It's as if for most of us the present is a magic time. It's a watershed on the timeline. It's the moment at which we finally become Ourselves human beings are works in progress. That mistakenly think they're finished. The person you are right now is as transient Enzi and as fleeting and temporary as all the people. You've ever been the one constant in our life is changed. I love that because I think that you could argue that. Over the course of our lives we become increasingly sort of better versions of our previous self which I hope is true because I You know like I think most people I am still at work in progress and I hope you know hope you are hope. Most most people listening are to That's lovely so Any words of wisdom for me as I go forth Do's and don'ts yeah I mean. I think I think you already do this. And I'm I'm just GONNA double down on Elizabeth Gilbert's advice but it's follow your curiosity so you have this opportunity to really follow it in any direction to go down any rabbit hole to have conversations with people who have thought really deeply about their ideas. Some of them are simple. Some of them are more complicated but But there's almost no idea that in my view isn't worth at least hearing out and I think you know one of the ways that you've been such a great host. Is that you have modeled for listeners. How to be curious about ideas you've shown them that if you just keep digging ask the next question or keep going or pull a thread? You might find something extraordinary. Certainly unexpected something that may be unlocks a door that you didn't even know was there and I think that that has been the pleasure and joy of listening to this show for the last seven years so thank you. That's very nice. Thank you thank you for saying that. It's been it's been amazing and I can't wait to hear to hear what you do with. I can't wait to go. This is the height of the party. F- cards over. We're having fun. Let's go nice. Good stay memories. Hey thanks for listening to episode on wisdom in Hindsight this week and thank you for being such an amazing community listeners. It's been an absolute honor guide past seven years. I won't be far. You can still hear me on how I built this world world and wisdom from the top and if you WANNA find out more about who is on the show this week go to Ted Dot. NPR Dot Org and to see hundreds more. Ted Talks Checkout Ted DOT COM or the tap production staff at NPR includes Jeff Rodgers Sanaa's Michigan poor. Rachel Faulkner Diba Mohtashami James Delicacy. JC Howard Katie. Montolio Maria Paz Gutierrez and Christina. Kala with help from Daniel Shchukin our journeys Kierra Brown grab our partners at Ted Chris Anderson Colin Helms and the Phelan and Michelle Quinn and a special thanks to Newsom Rhody you can hear new episodes of the show with Manouche rush starting in the spring. Garages and you've been listening to ideas worth spreading right here. I'm Ted Radio Hour from NPR

Japan NPR Ping Pong Club Ping Pong dopamine Curtis Ted nucleus accumbens writer Google Ted Radio NPR NPR Garros Ted Dot Com China United States England Curtis Carol Kyoto Elizabeth Gilbert
Monocle Reads: Hannah Critchlow

Monocle 24: Meet the Writers

11:26 min | 1 year ago

Monocle Reads: Hannah Critchlow

"Today's monocle. I'm speaking to Hannah crisslow. She's a push scientist writer and a broadcaster and she's the author of the Science of fate while your future is more predictable than you think hunter welcome to the program today all we free to shave her own destiny. What is the question is really plagued civilization since we started gossip to evolve as a species really we've got this kind of concept of fate this really wrist in into our coach for example? We say things like this person's destined for greatness. All these people were face it to fall in love. I miss this very compelling idea that their second pot parts of my life stores. It's already written into <hes> I'm we're on a Koffler life trajectory. That's moving towards that. It's been really interesting. The last twenty years it's been a revolution really in a way that we can view the mind see how behaviors how choices and decisions in life formed and because of these advances in neuroscience <hes> we can really start to get the nuts and bolts about behavioral what makes us I like stores is <hes> what gives rise to our individual subjective views awhile underpins consciousness so there's been really a pistol face. I think we sach that's looking at how are predetermined predestine us towards fasten characteristics to make session choices in our lives whether it's from what we choose to eat so we have friends who we might fall in love with all the way three to highlight beliefs and perception of the world is food and how that goes on to shape all of our future decisions how we see reality and and how that plays out in our life so I would say from the current resets that there is a huge amount of on lives but it's predetermined. I'm not GonNa be quite a a positive empowering thing in some ways because I think I've lost twenty years as well as been this really big positive message of plasticity acidity <hes> I didn't know whether you can remember in the early to thousands those a study with London cab drivers they as they underwent the test of the knowledge and they had to learn I well mainly <hes> incredible read wreak system of London. I'm trying to navigate their way through the eighty three thousand I think it is <hes> roads in London as they underwent this <hes> price of learning that network of right and I tried to navigate it toss that brain grew. That was the hippocampus which region of the greatness involved in learning and memory and how we navigate the world one recession he studied this beautiful brain. Region is actually shaped like to see horse. He calls it the region of the brain that kind of makes up on life stores and it's incredibly compelling to see that this legion grew as these black Cabbie drives drivers exercised that hip attempt to say that escaped to keep keep going and let's say that we can go in muscle every the exercise you can actually grow your brain by exercise you. I know that you do joking in order to improve your your neuropathy is yeah so this is one way I think you can. You're stuck in a interrupt. ooh You reuniting in a negative last thing and if you think you Brian is basically taking a new information from the world around us or the signals that are coming in two different senses and I bring prices over they signals and then gives rise to behave various output as a way that you can sometimes because of pasta extents. Maybe get stuck in arrest of thinking of particular way or not being able to find you. Ask we'll talk to them but what's been shown is that they might at least if you you run on a treadmill or on in the case of mice there's on a little running wheel and you actually get an increased rates of Nina cells that are being born in the hit become is key brain region and if you've had also explore new places and <hes> New People interact with these new enough cells that are being born can fully integrate within you'll seconds to give rise to literally new ways of thinking so there's a lot of neuroscientists that you see jogging down the tape off and came pogo kind of run put my neurogenesis levels through so much that is just inherited that we don't have a lot of control over you mentioned anxiety for instance going across generations of firmly. How does that work? Yes absolutely amazing. Research that was Kinda got quite recently but left the whole neuroscience community quite re reeling from the results and the implications so they took some mice and mice typically left the smell of Cherries 'cause they anticipate this wonderful sweet fruit trees once they smell cherries but what are we such as did is they accompanied the out they walked it in. I don't want official charities and the company Pats with little a mild electric shock and the mice learned to freeze and takes the patient of the shock coming. This kind of learning is nothing new is the basis of how we can. NCAA survive is a species as we learn different kinds environmental associations and and behavior there was also that's but what was incredible is that they took these mice they gave him that association and then they let them lead a happy fifty nine with nice manufacturers and nine electric shocks and the my pat up and they had to find this and then that's summit is harmless <hes> the grandchildren actually even they'd Never Smoked Cherries before had somehow learn from not grandfather a father to freeze and patient as if not electric shock there was something so something happening that was changing behavior that was probably easily. She was ingrained to a large degree before that they would think that smell of terrorism and they were GonNa and eat something Nice just thinking that actually it meant something negative well. The scientists did was that and find out the molecular mechanism for what was going on here because it wasn't something that they learn from their grandparents 'cause I'd never seen like my parents make this association allegation before and they found out that actually what was happening. Rosen epigenetics switch so <hes> one of genes in the grandparents the volume of genes had been changed slightly <hes> in the spam as a result of this experience variants and that led to when the little mass pups brains that they made that Neil sack it was changing from the factory area of the brain that's involved in processing smell instead of reaching it to the nucleus accumbens so they would start thinking of Nice smelly and terrorists and light up with pleasure and reward instead it was to another areas the brain they make which is involved in fair and so literally at Peach and ethically <hes> changing the way that the brains we've been weighing in these Glenn parents at grab grandparents Undo Sega great-grandchildrens brains and I mean we've seen that in humans the whole as you say that the study of epigenetics looking for for instance at the at the children of survivors of the Holocaust. There's very definitely a link. Isn't that yeah yeah. There's been some horrific things have happened to people <hes> throughout history really unfortunate and and it makes sense that we would within a hold some clever mechanism but allows us to remember these post across it and be able to act in one of my neighbors. Actually had grandparents were involved Holocaust thank you. She said the Granddad actually managed to escape the train honestly to Auschwitz and he helped to lead a number of people to stay as well and she says that she whenever she goes somewhere she's always looking. For some kind of escape routes if we must ingrained in how they might be epigenetics which we didn't have rain from each of the mind that letter to behaving this way how it's a fascinating book it's in seven chapters each named after different parts of the brains you start with the developing brain you go through the hungry brain the carrying brain the perceiving brain believing brain predictable brain and you end up with the cooperative brain which gives us hope yes yes they always very conscious just getting back to not fizzy this biological determinism thinking that quite a loss of capabilities Ariston biologically into and give rise to some awful behavior and and I think catch what neuroscientists showing us what this idea of biological determinism could show this is that within a species within any population you need a huge Niro divest to you need the ability for different capabilities abilities when people different idiosyncrasies floors they might be written N._C.'s that genes into that brains but each passing <hes> plays a very important role in society and that's not just for humans. That's other species as well. I <hes> positive research which is wonderful. Scientists is lacking in America being Robinson. He worked some lease behind them within a beehive has gotten proportion at the bees he even at some calamity strikes the hive. The Queen might not be very well getting quite anxious in the nation the stressed about this but as assassin proportion of the base he'll just carry on this one pragmatic in practically so probably now and and obviously that's very our imports and I and I think that's kind of parallels here because if you look at genetic variations in this very emotionally uncontentious subsection of beads baseball genetic variations homologous to people with autism for example I just looking at glasses dating the mainland pragmatically you know not putting a has in the signs that you like. She's <hes> kind of helping to both Rojo climate change emergency movements so the concept of this in your identity being integral to to uh fishes survival and other species survival is radio advocate message of the book some things might be we might be constrained by apology and individually individually that might be quite difficult to comprehend into except but the the grace positive message of is that is that it's all for the survival species feature the science of fate way. Your future is more.

London Hannah crisslow scientist Koffler autism NCAA America Nina Brian writer Rojo nucleus accumbens official Robinson Pats Niro Rosen Neil
Barry Komisaruk, Ph.D. - Neuroscience of an Orgasm: The Effect of Pleasure on the Brain

Collective Insights

1:22:43 hr | 1 year ago

Barry Komisaruk, Ph.D. - Neuroscience of an Orgasm: The Effect of Pleasure on the Brain

"You know it's very hard to get any kind of funding to very little green. Very little research done on sexuality. It's very very difficult to get funding because there's a lot of governmental opposition. You know it's not some hase case considered to be a waste of money wasted taxpayer money but I really. I really think that if we have to understand pleasure We have to study. What pleasure is just as a phenomenon because there are so many things that you know it could be a clue to understanding understanding how to overcome depression and certainly all kind of control it in constructive ways so you know? I think there's a real the need for it and sexuality you lies. It's like A. It's a good legal case. Study for for studying the phenomenon along on a pleasure hi there. A hiker community welcomed episode number. Fifty eight of our podcast on our show today. We have Dr Berry Camis Rock. A neuroscientist is two studies brain activity during sexual response an orgasm. We wanted to find out what happens in the brain when we orgasm and we found out so much more it it turns out when we orgasm. Every part of our brain is activated. So why do we have them anyways. And why does pleasure patter stay tuned to find out before we jumping. I wanted to thank all of our listeners. Participating in our show we read every comment you leave on our site and social media and appreciate all of the feedback and wisdom you add to the conversations for stations or sparking through this podcast. If you haven't already please leave us a review on itunes. A helps other people to find the podcast so we can continue to grow and share more absence with you will. You didn't already one of the other things we do in. The collective is create supplements for better cognition better aging and more energy. If you're looking for any or all of that the GO-TO NEURO HACKER DOT COM to learn more and as a gift to you we're offering an additional fifteen percent off your first order using the code. PODCAST fifty eight without further ado. Let's jump into the show. Here's Heather and very very welcome to the show. It's so exciting to have you here because we are going to talk about sex. We're going to get real about all of the nitty gritty dirty on the physiology the science the psychology that goes into whether or not we enjoy sex. So I I saw you on the a big thing and I was really enthralled as a scientist as a clinician in how you talked about the physiology and what's going on in our bodies bodies when we have an orgasm can break that down for us. Well it's basically all systems go. It's it's generally the General activation increased heart rate blood pressure of perspiration muscle tension and a Hormone Secretion oxytocin. What we find in the brain is that basically all systems are activated in the brain and so there are many different the physiological effects under under the control control of rain so there's a multiplicity of systems that are activated mainly the sympathetic division of the the system is activated so the Not only heart rate and blood pressure increase but the pupils dilate late pain sensitivity is dramatically decreased. Although touch remains equally sensitive it is an interesting differential effect that is fascinating the muscle tension icon. I like to think of orgasm as a UP. As a special case that there who were familiar with a sneeze a yawn and stretch and they we'll have a similar characteristic of a build up of tension especially muscle tension and then a resolution of a climax wchs am resolution and this same snee- a sneeze is like that You feel the build up of muscle tension and something is happening. You build up and then a a release and a human is similar and a stretch the build up of tension in the muscles and relaxation. These feel good. It feels good to do that. And an orgasm I think is a special case of the more general case of the orgasmic process in the body this pattern of tension and then resolution interesting the basic physiological mechanism of that that we know that. When when you have more you it's called recruitment more and more nerve cells become activated The the the expectation increases the muscle tension that is produced by the increase sation increases. And then it gets to a point where it's self limiting so it triggers an inhibitory mechanism so it doesn't go too high This is a general principle. Their general principles in of the nervous system. If you if you hold your arm out and and a very heavy weight suddenly drops on it. You suddenly release it. Because there's a very high intensity stimulus triggers. Its own inhibition the inhibitor. We have a half of the Neuron heff of the newer transmitters in the nervous system. MM are inhibitory so we have. Inhibition is extremely important in in brain function because that enables Abel's us to be to make smooth graceful movements as opposed to spastic movements. We don't have an ambition than the movements of very spastic. So in addition the the basic phenomenon and if the citation reaches peak levels it triggers the inhibitory systems which which have a a higher threshold to the activated. So once with a high level of citation have in addition and that's that produce the relaxation. And it's a general the principles and reflexes. It's in seizing in yawning and stretching and in orgasm. So you're talking about these principles as applied to the nervous stemming inputs into the nervous system in this day and age with all of the inputs into our nervous system. Do you think that's having an effect on people's sexual health. We've phones and social media and billboards and just these constant working and parenting everything that people have on their plates. These days do you. I think that's affecting our nervous system ability to enjoy sex. Well it certainly reduces distractions and so yeah I guess to the to the extent that Where so distracted by so many different Vince Stimuli it we we get distracted from sexual stimuli to some I mean I I mean? I don't know if if that's a solid if it's a social pathology just when it comes time to uh-huh pay attention to sexual stimuli pay attention to sexual extracted by all these other things so speaking of sexual stimuli worldwide I `understand that pornography is worth like fifty seven billion dollars dollars in every year like just enormous amounts of money money are spent on pornography. So there's a huge amount of consumption of sexual stimuli. What do you think that effect has on our sex lives and well? It's a I get in some ways. I mean you can have multiple. It can get people more and more focused on sexuality more and more of giving and people ideas about different ways of expressing sexuality And I suppose it can also so Produce anxieties in a performance. Anxiety that you know if they have a select Particularly particularly Hyper sexual people for the for the pornographic images of hyper hyperstimulation really hyper sexual stimuli. Large bread sludge lodge and performing different sexual ritual acts. That are not usual that not usual. These kinds of things people can maybe expect that of with their partner. And the partner's don't WanNa do that and that could lead to anxiety and hostility and anger frustration. So I mean it's it's it just It opens up a Pandora's box. I mean I. Maybe they're a good parts and bad parts it just it just makes except for more more More variable the aspects of sexuality more variable that that people Uh may have been accustomed to And on the other hand it May it In some ways Reduces the the the mystery of the body can be an introduction accent thinking of one hundred years ago when people were all buttoned up in clothing covered every part of the body and it was great curiosity about the human body. Now it's it's it's easy access and so that in some ways that could be good in some ways as bad in one in good sense it it mystifies the human body in other ways it it makes it less mysterious and Interesting it sounds like there's some impression Polish. I'm getting bad. So why guys them. What led you to study in Sexuality Orgasm why yeah? Why do I study orgasm? Where do I study organs? Well first of all. It's you know my main interest is how how the brain controls our feelings our conscious experience. Yes I mean that was. That's my. I've always been intrigued by the neurons. It just begs of chemicals goals and it's just a combination of bags of chemicals. And how does that produce conscious awareness and orgasm is an intense Active activation of that. I didn't I didn't start out studying orgasm really the way I sort of backed into it because what I was interested in as a as a doctoral student was a new there was a new area. Call Infield called neuro. Endocrinology was a study of how the the nervous system can influence the hormone system and I when I did my post DOC AT UCLA. In the brain research is to there was a particular a the the group I was. I was working with also air in his laboratory was studying a case study particular particular cases like in law. A A case study like Rosa Parks sitting in the front of the bus was a case. Study that triggered the Civil Rights Movement So it has great ramifications so the same thing in science you pick you pick some mechanism that represents a larger phenomenon so so the phenomenon died. That story was studying that I started studying was how vaginal stimulation in rats triggers the -tary gland to secrete to stimulate the overeat to secrete the hormones that are necessary pregnancy. So he's a a sensory stimulus that stick stint that goes into the nervous system. How does that trigger the hormone system to produce hormones to maintain the uterus uterus for pregnancy? So it was a case study and that we've studied that in anesthetizing animals. I started learning how to brain record from BRAINIAC from neurons. News in the brain and correlate with the hormones and when I came to my own land here at rutgers I continue the study but now now I was looking at awake animals awake rats and doing the vaginal stimulation and I noticed that when I stimulated the vagina in the rats they became they froze. They became a mobilized I could push against the cervix with the with the with a glass rod a thin glass rod and instead of the rats. That's running away. They would just stand there and I could push against the cervix and they would slide along the table without without walking without running away as I said I tried pinching your foot. And if if you pinch the foot of a rat it it squeaks and it pulls leg away and invites you Thanks a lot but would during the vaginal stimulation. When I pinch the foot? There was no squeak there was no leg withdrawal. It just stood there and I pinch his heart as I wanted and they didn't move they respond. They didn't bite Lee anything. So I said is it because they can't move over a power line or is it because they're not feeling the pain so i. I texted that by recording the activity of neurons wrong singled neuro nerve cells in the sensory part of the brain and found that pinch the foot the these neurons. We've become very active. But if I did the vaginal stimulation and then pinch. The foot was no response. The those numbers of silent didn't respond to the pinch. So I said sounds like it's blocking pain and I said the only way I'm going to know for sure is a by asking women so I teamed up with Beverly Early whipple. Who had just written the g spot? She was a co wasn't on the spot and I invited her to do a doctorate with me because she she was a nurse and we studied. We measured pain sensitivity in women during vaginal self-stimulation with a Dildo and what we found. Was that the women became extremely insensitive to pain when they applied the vaginal self-stimulation and it's the same trail. Then we don't know it's possible. It's it's possible. WELL WE I. We had a I had to figure out what is the. What is the sensory nerve that carries sensation from the vagina? Turns out that doing doing We studied I studied. That rats found that it's pelvic nerve that carries a sensation for the Regina. The pelvic nerve also carries sensation from through the rectum and so in Renton in male rats rectal stimulation in female rats and in Male Rats. It was kind of a heroic experiments in male rats but it does have a base at different in male rats. Why why was it different in male rats and try to rectal stimulation? Well yeah putting things are rathore faces right. Imagine facet the same nerve in pelvic nerve so it does have an effect not as strong as the visuals relation does have some effect so it's possible awesome. Let the same thing would happen to men. But I haven't done that study with whether stimulating the pelvic nerve via the rectum But it's possible that it could have pain blocking action. Just having hasn't been done yet and what are the nerves that enervate penis it's the The Pew dental nerve mainly the dental. It's possibly partially the pelvic albig knows. So it's possible that that squeezing the deep tissue of the of the we you know we're just working on this now in men following this up in men But we have some evidence that the pelvic nerve might be the might carry sensation from the deep tissue of the penis. The the skin of the penis The Pew Dental nerve carries sensation from the skin of the penis. Just like the the Pew Dental nerve carries sensation Asian from the clitoris the their nerves carry sensation from the external part of the body from the internal. Oh bottom body. And the clitorises the extra part of the body the clitoris. And the penile skin is external it's called the somatic somatic a pathways somatic nerves whereas internal vagina and the cervix those visceral those are internal. There's that's a different set of nerves. ARS is very different pattern so I wanted to know what since the pelvic nerve stimulation is producing these pain blocking action of does the same thing happened. Women is the same nerve involved in blocking the pain and women and and then rats or mice in rats. I did the experiment. Cutting the pelvic nerve and showing that the pain blunt that bad effect was blocked. Can't do that in women. But there's a natural experiment that woman excuse me which is severed spinal cord traumatically. We severed spinal cord from car accidents. Gunshot wounds so I studied I got an NIH grant to study women who have severed spinal cord at different levels that were blocked different The access of different genital sensory nerves to the brain. There are several different. Is The clitoral sensory nerves if you dental the vaginal sense. You're nervous the pelvic cervical sensory nerve is hypo gastric. So there are three different pairs of nerves that carry sensation station from different. Parts of the The gentle system and too so I was able to discern which nerves were involved by looking looking at the study women who had the severed spinal cord at different levels that were blocked different levels. Different access the access of different of these nerves to the brain and my most severe case was looking at women with a severed spinal cord close closest to the brain that would block all all these nerves access to the brain and the big surprise. was that in those women. Who have this seven spinal-cord record that should theoretically blocking all the all the nerve access the brain they still had the pain blockage and they said they could feel vagina? Why why they were? There were more surprised than than than we were because they'd never tried. The doctors told him the sex life his over. After this spinal cord injury sex life is over and they did the vaginal self stimulation. They said they I can feel it and it can a Oregon got anything else. They had no sensation below the level of the injury. No external sensation no internal sensation malig movement. Nothing no movement no sensation sation except for vaginal stimulation Badge Association. Wow do you have any of the house last. Yeah I I'm wondering the same thing. How as possible as possible but a miracle you only posssibility? Is that the only other nurse. The only possible nerve it could be is the vagus nerve but classically the vagus nerve of it carries sensation from a goes through the body. It means wanderer. It wanders it carries the station from from the lungs from the heart from stomach from the intestines. But it doesn't go for the south in the intestines doesn't go into the pelvic area. The classical view I so well but maybe maybe that's the only possible way so I said the only way I'm GonNa know is by recording brain activity in the region to which the Vegas nerve projects is a particular a nucleus nucleus is called the solitary nucleus in the brain stack. The lower brain stem region called villa. GotTa just just at the very base of the brain where just before the spinal cord enters of the the middle. And that's where the vagus nerve projects. So in order to do that I had to learn how to do. Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging to image the AC activity the brain. And when I did that in these women are found that this nucleus was in fact activated in each of the women so that supported the idea that the vagus nerve is. What's carrying this? And you think that's true in all women or is that only true after a traumatic event that suffers. The question is what I think you know. The the at the intensity of the blockage of pain seemed to be more intense in the women with the severed spinal cord. So I think there was some kind of compensation should that that that there's a compensatory mechanism of that in the absence of spinal cord the vagus nerve takes on a even stronger role. I think everybody it works in everybody but the main pathways through the spinal cord but at the spinal cord. Pathway has gone because of the of the injury of this of the severance severed spinal then there's compensatory and so these women missile were so this effect of vaginal stimulation having an impact on pain perception. Right so there's a vaginal. Oh stimulation creates reduction in pain perception in the brain and is that correlated to the ability to have an orgasm. So it can they also These women who had suffered spinal cords with orgasm. That's the thing. That's the thing that I was just getting to that. You just anticipated by my next sentence. Is that three of those five women with the separates file cord had orgasms. Did you send out a public public service announcement to everyone with spinal cord you can still have sex and enjoy. It will publish that. I've gotten a lot of publicity for that and the so the thing is that this were so wild doing the phone while I'm doing the brain imaging the women having orgasms so I actually was. This was the first evidence. The world's first evidence of where in the brain women's orgasm occurs. And is that in that the lower part of the brain stem where you were describing. What started there? It's the input originated there but it spread throughout the whole brain. And now we've so this was. I mean this is really exciting to me. I said you know this is the first evidence of where orgasm occurs in the brain. I mean why is it such a wonderful powerful phenomenon and let's study. It's a more so now he's been studying. Women able bodied women and and men. Also so we have we've been publishing this where we're orgasm occurs in the brain and So Oh by a kind of a SCHEMA called reverse engineering trying to put back trying to figure out we know what the what the physiological events are like increased blood pressure increased heart rate pain blockage of pupil dilation Hormone Secretion oxytocin secretion. We know these things happen. And we know what parts of the brain are involved in in control in those controls the from other studies have just the physiological book studies at correlating with the brain so we put it together and we're seeing that we're orgasm occurs we're those those are occurring in regions that control for example who the oxy Cheetos the secretion that increases at orgasm. The Sara Bellum gets activated to produce the muscle tension. The middle gets activated to increase blood pressure and heart rate. The the the brain stem gets activated to a block the pain and the dopamine system gets activated debated because that activates the pleasure center so called pleasure center of the brain dopamine system goes from the mid brain projects up to the he region. Call the nucleus accumbens. Maybe the question is what part of the brain is not stimulated when you're having an ESA you don't find any major part one of the brain that isn't stimulated during orgasm. It's all systems. Go Yeah and I think the new the their there you know raises other questions. We say that the nucleus accumbens is activated strongly during work Azam. That's the pleasure center entra brain stimulated by by dopamine release and we see that the dopamine system is activated. That's that's system is also the nucleus accumbens is also activated by cocaine and Nicotine Caffeine and chocolate and orgasm pleasure. Reward this this this but that raises the interesting question of how does what what is pleasure to how neurons produce. What is pleasure? How do you explain pleasure from the standpoint standpoint of things and you know we say? This area is involved in generating pleasurable. We don't have we don't know what pleasure wait we don't even know how Newroz produce pain or any cessation. I mean the whole question is raised now of how neurons which just begs of chemicals. How do they produce any conscious? Awareness is a tremendous mystery mystery. So so I don't know if this helps to. I don't know if this helps to answer that question but we talked about trauma to the spinal cord and the receptors basically still having function Russian for sensation in the Vagina for women. Now what if it's a the TRAUMAS and the head where that stimuli is going and being perceived so if you have traumatic brain injury than does that change your experience of orgasm and sex yes. A- can certainly able insensitive to a to to genital stimulation on the other hand There's an interesting phenomenon in which people with temporal lobe epilepsy. When they have an epileptic seizure they say it feels orgasmic because the temporal lobe couple of has the effect of of of generating of repetitive activation? That spreads throughout the whole brain and They say that they have meant these women. And men say that these these seizures feel orgasmic. An anecdote published anecdote of a woman. WHO said I don't want to take my anti epileptic medicine because I enjoy my seizures? I feel like I'm wow. So if you hit a certain part of the brain is it more like if you hit the frontal lobe versus the temporal lobe or it will then is that the temporal lobe contains the hippocampus and the hippocampus is particularly sensitive to WHO trauma to Lack of oxygen. So for some reason the the neurons in the hippocampus are particularly damaged by lack of lack of oxygen. So a lot of cases of epilepsy are triggered by I difficult childbirth. Where the the the the fetuses brain was deprived of oxygen and the main gene part of the brain? That's affected by that. A temporary loss of oxygen deprivation of oxygen is the campus and the the newer the neurons become abnormally active. They don't they. Don't have the normal inhibitory pattern because the commission is affected did by the by the lack of oxygen so they become hyperactive and that's reduces the epileptic seizure. And is that does that interfere with this tension. Release Pattern that we see with orgasm. Well it may produce it could reduce orgasms avenue abnormally if the hippocampus traumatic brain injury like a gunshot wound or a car accident That can produce damage to sensory parts of the brain and inhibit sexual response. inhibitory gas so it depends on where we're in the brain the damages and the type of damage I published a paper A couple of years ago about the effects of brain injury on sexual response So it's complicated. Yeah Yeah because The head injury is so hit a head injury and stroke they. They don't produce localized effects. They have very generalized effects. And try to make sense of what what parts of the brain affected. It's it's it's a very Very complicated just fascinating to me that you can have a trauma as a as severe as a spinal cord injury and still have the ability to enjoy sex riddick kind of begs. The question is this so conserved as a do we create these compensation patterns because we're so driven to procreate right and so I'm wondering are there other ways that we might compensate if there's a head injury or that you might see the brain creating new pathways or some sort of neural plasticity that Wade allowing you to this city I mean but but the thing is that orgasm the phenomenon of Orgasm and phenomenon of of pleasure. That's something that happens in the brain of it doesn't happen in the spinal cord in fact. That's a very interesting question of of that. That's another another interesting neurological question. which is a mythic may sounds? It sounds obvious but it's not obvious. Obvious how come after this spinal cord is severed from the brain the neurons in the spinal alcorn are alive still active. And if you pinch a toe the person with a severed spinal cord is still going to show a leg. Withdrawal Reflex likes there are certain. So so the the circuitry spinal cord circuitry is functional after the spinal cord is separate from the brain. But the person doesn't know it is not aware of that. It's it's those are those are the the the the neurons belong to the person the spinal cord neurons belong to the person and they become activated by sensory stimulus. But why doesn't the person person feel it. Even though it's it's their neurons as opposed to nerves in the brain when those Iraq that they do feel it right that's another problem of y y certain neurons produce conscious awareness and other neurons. Don't of so it all kinds of really really tremendous mysteries that we have totally. We have no idea women come up with more questions than answers today. So I have another one for you then. And Yeah so the idea of compensation so so it's possible to activate orgasms say here by the vagus biggest nerve. You can get access into the orgasmic mechanism in the brain is an alternative pathway. Procreation is so important. As as a matter of in fact I make a point that when I studied the the sensory pathways from the cervix the the is called the uterus cervix but some people call the vaginal service cervix the O'Kane from the vagina to through the uterus. Exactly that the cervix it has a sensory three three different pairs of neuro of nerves carry sensation from the cervix. The pelvic nerve the HYPOC gassner and now the vagus nerve and I don't know of any any other organ in the body that has a three different pairs of nerves carrying cessation from it which means that it it. It you know this principle of redundancy if one system is burned out or destroyed you still have another system. If that one is gone you still have a third third system when you have that kind of redundancy you know that it must be doing something very important. So the service cervix keeping the feces alive the cervix has a very very important function. And we don't even understand what the function is. As as a matter of fact what it's crazy is that the I don't know if you if you are aware of the Kinsey report you know birth famous in the nineteen fifties. The Kinsey report was really. I wasn't around yet. Preceded the mass that masters and Johnson. The Kinsey report was was. There was a a major book on the sexual response of the human female followed by another book that they did the Sexual response of the human male and this was this revolutionized the attitudes of sexuality in the United States worldwide. I mean this was a classic that just started the whole thing about about a. You know it's okay to talk about human sexuality because I did all kinds of studies on human sexual response And it was. It was a a revolution that it revolutionized the whole attitude about sexuality. This is nine hundred fifty three they published it and the message and Johnson followed up on it but one of the crazy things that they said in the Kinsey report was at the cervix is completely insensitive to stimulation and it completely re they they had they did studies on the cervix on the response of the service themselves on over eight hundred women and they themselves found that it was it responds. Bonds does respond to a cotton wisp on the cervix. But it responds to pressure in eighty five percent of the women at eight hundred women. They said that it could feel the cervix but they can. They came to the conclusion that services insensitive. which is crazy and the medical profession still believes now now that the cervix is insensitive? So they do all kinds of procedures they cut out they cut out they do electric quarterly of the cervix when when there's a TV like and they tell the women don't worry you know you can't feel it and women say after the after after the operation that they lose their libido they lose a sexual response this is a big issue right now. Wow I didn't realize well even the cervix when you deliver baby the sometimes it's referred to as the ring of fire. The baby passing through the birth canal at the cervix is is extremely Info for most women. If you don't have an Arrow so I think I mean that alone would say that there is a in sensation survey. DNC Procedure Rain smear. There's no question about it but but the medical the medical profession and thinks that they tell women that don't worry you know with we we will do this. You won't feel it so anyone who can't have an orgasm. Yes that's a very interesting question. Also you're really you're nailing This is my next project the brain activity in women and men who can't have orgasms We were doing. I do a collaborative research with with a Google San Diego Goldstein until Kim Who sexual medicine and spine surgeon One of the things we're finding is that a particularly men who and women there are men and women who are an orgasmic they. They're generally they're they're that they become numb. They can't feel the genitals and what we're seeing is that the The the intervertebral discs the disks. You know the vertebrae there are there are cushions between each each vertebra in the spine adjacent to the spinal cord. Yeah it's the spinal cord is within the spinal canal but the spine itself is the bones the vertebrae and and the vertebrae of are they have cushions between each one. I called intervertebral disc and and a slipped a slipped disc herniated needed to get this with say car accident or full of the disc the cushion in can slip or be squashed and squash the against the nerve fibers coming from the from the gentles novel we're seeing in in men and women who are numb they can't have orgasms because they don't have any genital sensation the station the the the the intervertebral discs a pressing on the on the nerve fibers as they go through the spinal title Canal and are there people who can have reduced. We cut down the disk and remove it from remove the pressure against the the The nerve fibers they. They're cessation returns and it can have orgasms again and is that the only example example of someone who can't help people okay. That's that's a peripheral. That's one one way that we see To account for the lack of war gas ranking describing complex system right there stimulation in the free. There's this this pathway the brain there's in the brain range that they can they can. Have they have genital sensation. They just can't have orgasms and so my next project. An the next brain imaging project is to study the women. The women and men who say they can feel the genital stimulation but they can't have an orgasm because we we know from our brain activity studies so far what the sequence of activation is leading up to orgasm so my question is where in that sequence of does the blockage occur they can presumably get sensory a projection from the genitals sensory parts of the brain. But where does it get blocked. After that. What fails to get activated and then could we do procedures? That will try hi to unblock that. And then we've talked a lot about the physiology. What about the psychology might be a little bit more difficult to measure Famara? You're right on target and you really really asking great questions. I work with Nan. Woo she she. Now Dr the nationwide. She did her doctor with me. She's a sex therapist and one of the things she mainly. were she asked women and men who say they can't Gannex. They can't experience orgasms of genital sensation. But they can't experience orgasm she. I says tried to masturbate. See if you can have orgasms by your own stimulation yourself stimulation. Because they haven't tried that and they can't have it with a partner they don't experience orgasms or the partner so she does therapy where she encourages them to masturbate and see if they can stimulate themselves to orgasm just to see if they can experience an orgasm and in many cases should finds that they they learn how to have an orgasm so there there are social factors psychological factors also so quietly she nothing known about that about what the causes of gas me on the only thing that is known medically is that antidepressants SS arise like PROZAC. On the Torius for inhibiting orgasms in people who had previously had orgasm because arise due to the increase of levels of Serotonin. And it's well known that Serotonin has an inhibitory effect sexual response in Orgasm Awesome. How depressing if you were an Iraqi Soco's it's the price people pay for Eddie Depression? Yeah so what about under other there are other drugs that can that are antidepressants. That don't have that effect. One of of those one of those is Wellbutrin. The rate where it's not affecting yet it has an anti Anti antidepressant effect but not by elevating Dopamine dopamine in a a a a reuptake inhibitor of dopamine and norepinephrine so dopamine and norepinephrine accumulate and UH levels increase and that has a stimulatory effect on Sexual Response and Orgasm but doesn't have the negative the side effects of of the increasing. serotonin interesting innocent. There are different between necessarily the NRA is if you have serotonin reuptake inhibitors versus versus. Just serotonin well. There are differences. I'm not I haven't really studied those The different subtle differences between psoriasis. As enter is the biggest difference is going to be a Wellbutrin. Something that completely doesn't touch the Serotonin reuptake. That's more transmitters. This is really interesting right. Because there's this huge play of neurotransmitters neurons these bags of neurotransmitters as you've describe them and then also hormones. Can you talk about that interplay in the complexity there of the the main in hormone that is produced. A that's released by orgasm is oxytocin and the So there's a peak of oxytocin especially women in men's more graduate in relation orgasm but in women there's a peak of Peak release of Oxytocin at Orgasm we see the Yorkshire Tolson is produced in the brain. It's it's actually called the neural hormone because it acts as both a neurotransmitter within the brain and as a hormone with a hormone is chemical that's released into the bloodstream so it's really a fascinating a fascinating chemical the the neurons that produce that produce and release oxytocin are located in the hypothalamus in a specific the region of the hypothalamus. We see that that we that hypothermic region strongly activated at orgasm is a release of oxytocin and when the oxytocin gets into into the bloodstream. there are two parts of the body that have oxytocin receptors and when the oxytocin hits those receptors it stimulates muscle contraction the smooth muscle contraction one. One region is the uterus The the uterine smooth muscle else is considered to be the strongest muscle in the body. In men men what Wim Susan said Lest You Respiratory Oregon. I feel good So the and the uterine contractions back when the hormone. When the toaster stimulates the union the uterus starts contracting and women say that those univer- contractions And to the pleasure of the of the orgasm it intensifies your gas intense visceral internal stimulus fearless and then the other place it also. Well let me just finish that. There's evidence although so controversial that one one of the functions of the uterus contractions is to produce a what it's been called an insect that to suck suck the semen the into the uterus and facilitate pregnancy. And there is there's evidence to support that although it's still controversial official The other part of the The other region The other organ that has the oxytocin receptors on smooth muscle. It is the breast and The the so there is It women who are lactating when they have orgasms. There's the oxytocin that gets into. The bloodstream. Stimulates the contraction and of smooth muscles in in the breast that squeezes the milk out. So women can so women who are lactating can Squeeze out milk when they have orgasms. The the typical situation is that the when the baby nurses when the baby chuckles on on the nipple that is another reflects that stimulates the same neurons. Hypothetical is to release oxytocin. So the baby. The baby's thoughts suckling and then the oxytocin gets into the bloodstream. And squeezes the the breast The smooth muscles in the breast that squeezes the milk out into the baby's mouth mouth at the same time women who during nursing say that they can feel uterine contractions because the same oxytocin circulating leading in the bloodstream and it's also producing contractions interesting feedback and one of the interesting things about nipple stimulation a Oh really surprising to me. At least because we mapped where in the where. In the brain the the basic sensory input goes from the Clitoris Vagina and cervix. We asked women to do self stimulation. These are able body women to to self stimulation of clitoris or of the China or of survey we found that they all project to to a particular region of the sensory cortex attacks in the region. Call the Para Central Lobule. They overlap. There they go to different slightly different regional like a cluster of grapes. So there's some overlap lap rules in the same general region And that indicates that each of the each of the sensory nerves projects the slightly different region Jim but all in the same cluster. And there's the map of the body. It's a map of the body that that the different parts of the body go project different parts of the sensory court. They score the whole monkey. Louis so people are familiar with that picture. At least yeah I remember it from medical school. Where the lips are really big and tips of the fingers are really big? Think that means that many more neurons devoted to representation of the lips in the hands then to say the of the The leg the thigh Shin that Even though that's a much larger part of the actual body there are many fewer neuro homes of responsive to those parts of the body will leg the Shin as opposed to the the lips and fingers and so the The classical view is that the breast projects to the chest area area on on the body map. But what we found we asked the women to also apply nipple stimulation nipple stimulation in addition to clitoral vaginal serviceable. And we found. Is that while we get activation in the chest area from nipple stimulation we also it activated the same exact area. The genital it overlapped exactly with the Clitoris Vagina and cervix and I when I report that to my men N Neuro Science cal colleagues may say well. That's interesting that's A. That's an exception to the to the home oculus. It's a different. We didn't expect to see nipple stimulation going to the to the genital. Read Projecting to the genital region to the chest but not the genital region and my women neuro science. That's colleagues say obviously so no no with a lot. A lot of women say that nipple stimulation feels erotic right and this is consistent with the experience. So there's there's people that report the nipple stimulation will cause an orgasm and also probably probably consistent again with this perpetuating. The human race right like this is how you keep your child alive. That's dependent on. You has to be pleasurable rate eight. The key to to keep doing it activates. The I think that you know what I think that a major function Shen of the so-called pleasure center of the brain. It's you know a long time ago. The older physiologists that part out of the brain was thought to be the motor control area. Now the psychologists have gotten into it and they say it's the pleasure area and I think that there's a there's there's a unifying concept that pleasure is a signal to the motor system to do what you just did do it over again. Just just keep doing it over and over again and that it gives us the sensation of pleasure but it also ensures that. What is pleasurable? It gets it's done so you know it's important for sexual stimulation to be pleasurable in the animal kingdom. If it weren't pleasurable they wouldn't do it right so it's a way of ensuring that you know if you act if this particular thing is important then you have to do it again. So it's A. It's a reinforcing. Its Motor reinforcing system but if you eat another bar of chocolate yeah right another cigarette. Yeah well and there's sex sex addicts right. Do you believe that. That's the true thing and can you speak to that. I will know any. I don't know of any of brain studies is done on sex addicts. You know it's very hard to get any kind of funding to very little green very little research done on sexuality you know. It's very very difficult to get funding because there's a lot of governmental governmental opposition. You know it's not considered to be a waste money. Waste of taxpayer money. But I really I really. I think that if we have to understand pleasure we have to study. What pleasure is just as a phenomenon because you know there are so many the things that you know? It could be a clue to understanding how to overcome depression fiction. Yeah certainly control it in in constructive ways. So I think there's a real need for it and sexuality utilizes it's like a it's a good legal klay study for for studying the phenomenon of pleasure right and so I'm GonNa go in even further down that path of the things that the government probably doesn't want to fund the Study of but what about this spirituality the spiritual connection to having an orgasm. Well I mean there are a religious sects who say that they go into these These procedures to generate the ORGASMIC activity of the trances they go into into a trance and it feels orgasmic. I mean I think that You know the the when when the whole whole brain you know people have described Epileptic seizures as being a spiritual and And orgasms as spiritual and spirituality as orgasmic these. I think what normally in our everyday life we have figured it out how to We we spend our entire infancy and childhood entire lives figuring out the difference between taste and odor and sin and pressure and touch and pain. We we learn what we teach ourselves all all the. What's the difference between seeing and hearing and and touch and and the taste and We have these clear silos of different Sensory systems knowing the difference. And there's an interesting thing a phenomenon call cintas vision of where the different senses aren't it's in their own silos and his taste has color and colour has odor and and it's typical in in they say in three groups of people infants and children have that since these you learned the differences instead and artists develop that as a skill to be able to merge of say music and color loops and psychotics those artists and psychotics have other typical people would sit decision but under drug conditions like marijuana. It becomes very uncommon that the seizure describing to me like psychedelics maybe and psychedelics and PSYCHEDELIC. There are people who are very sensitive to marijuana but psychedelics do that. They get the seizure and so I think the idea is that. We the Trans or spirituality meditation or drugs breakdown the silos that we know that we normally established that we have spent their entire lifetimes of developing these silos to know the difference between Between say A A fly landed on skin and and say he Burn learn the different. But then with these he's altered states of consciousness where the whole brain becomes activated. And you break down the silos. This is what happens in orgasm because everything is you don't have when we lose the silos. Who's the in addition among systems and everything becomes different? It's an author altered state of consciousness. That sounds I was like a big takeaway. Oregon is an altered state of consciousness that state because it was the silos of broken down temporarily by the orgasm by the seizure by the drug by the by the by the trance by the meditation. So there's a commonality this is really revolutionary way to think about sack back and an orgasm to say this is an altered state of consciousness and they might be spiritual connection or the spiritual level of it maybe rather other than just being about procreating or something we should be ashamed of it sort of celebrated when you say that is what I'm hearing. How does how does that part matter? This way that we think about sex or the way that we approach sex as a society is basically ignorance and you know if if it needs need sunshine. No we get things out in the open and talk about it as another one of human experiences of it takes away the the mystery and we can appreciated for what it is so the good aspects of it and and I it's just a historical fear maybe a originated from the Ashby. It has to be brought under control control. Maybe authoritarian control sexualities is liberating. The Puritan Past Puritan appear in past. And you know hyper religiosity. Basically it. It goes against the authoritarian control. You know people out of control if we if we let them have sexuality so but you know that's it's just another style of of human activity and based on certain kinds of ignorance and and and Limitations and fear of fear of things getting out of control but I think with with No opening up to discussion and examination and we can understand just like we can understand other you know we. We don't understand Aggression fear terror. we you know. There's a basic lack of understanding of these powerful human emotions Alpha and that was what other things that you need to understand the surgery surgery. Well that was one of the things that you mentioned. Is You know how to when I asked the question. How how does how we think about sex? Why does that matter? And you've already mentioned that this doesn't Sexuality doesn't get studied because it doesn't funding and part of that is because of how we think about sex is an important or not are going to get out of control if we talk about this in a certain way. There is a lot of fear that comes into that discussion so and this leads me to. What is the missing research? We've we've already. Ah Come to the conclusion that we have more questions than answers around the stuff but if you could have an unlimited budget an answer any question around sex and sexuality and orgasm what would it be. Well what I would like to be able to do is And we starting it to have the technology for it but it would be expensive and that is to be able to see. I mean I think of Metaphor and analogy that you know. How do you do this and right? Now you're bending your finger and extending it. How can you describe what you have to do? Then you finger and you. You don't know what you have to do you just do it. I mean we spent our entire infancy learning to associate. You know whatever it is that we're associating with what's what. What would our bodies doing? So we do that. We control our body in some ways. We don't know exactly. We can't we can't say what it is that we're doing to do this. Who would just do do it? So what I'm thinking. Is that if we can have the technology to be in say a brain imaging scanner in real time and we show our brain activity to ourselves so you lie in the scanner and you see your own brain activity in real time. It's like neuro feedback. It's neuro feedback. But it's it's brain brain image looking at brain region like an FM online versus like an EEG. Can we can we learn to control cook. We learn learn to what we have to do. Say To activate the nucleus accumbens which is out pleasure center. Can we learn to activate that or a person who it doesn't who is inorganic because something is blocked in the brain. Can we see where that blockages. And can we a teach ourselves to either tone down that area or increase the area you know somebody in chronic pain. We we see the areas of the brain. That are that are of hyperactive. Can we teach ourselves to tone down whatever it is what we have to do biofeedback. The paradigm is well. You Watch some activity like sweating or heart rate blood pressure and there you watch a random fluctuations and when it when it goes in the desired direction. Say I didn't know what you just did but do it again. and Ah you know we could do the same thing. With our brain you know when somebody was with chronic pain some brain activity in the anterior cingulate CORTEX is hyperactive. Random fluctuation it goes down that annoys. You just did do it again. I'll do it or I'll do again. I'm going to treat it. Try that keep bringing it down or the nucleus accumbens. Somebody who say has a addicted to drugs can can. They increase an area of the brain. Do the increase. The pleasure center will at tone down the addiction of would would decrease the need for the drug. If you can if you can activate the pleasure area yourself voluntarily you learn what you have to do does does that make it unnecessary to have the drug. That would do that so that. But that's GonNa take that would take time and a lot of money to be in the scanner teaching stuff. That's that's my that would be my dream. My dream study. I love it so when we're question for you around sexual health in a relationship so some people say poor sexual health it not having sex. Let's just call it. That in a relationship is the cause of the relationship's demise and other people will suggest that's a symptom. Do you have any thoughts about symptomatic street. It's a it's a a vicious cycle that you know it would build on itself you know. If if there's anger at the partner partner the partner feels gets Angry and the bills itself. I'm sure it could go both ways the big takeaways from this conversation. It's that you called. It also stems go. It's all systems. Go in the brain. It's all systems go in terms of hormones everything is interrelated when we're talking about sex and orgasm psychology there's physiology there's hormones neurotransmitters there's the whole nervous system there's ups and downs. There's this dynamic of tension and then release and you need both. You can't have just one or the other. It sounds like that's almost the same answer to this question right. It's it's not chicken or the egg. It's not symptom or cause. It's it's probably both it's all systems. Go It's both it's it's And and you know if you understand how it can be both then at least you have some way of Intervening and taking things down a notch and and with understanding and communication. I think communication is critical factor of because resentment deals on if if somebody if somebody is a enticed compelled to do something that they don't WanNa do that automatically generates hostility. Instilling and hostility generates reluctance or resistance and that generates Reluctance and resistance or anger in in the in the in the in the partner and it just builds on itself so communication problem. What what what do they do What what would you like? What don't you like what do you like? What did I do wrong? What what should I do differently? That kind of communication basic communication Can can take the whole Vicious can interrupt that cycle. This is another reason why it matters how we think about sex right because that'll interfere with communication around it. Indication between partners is the essential ingredient. Yeah sounds like it and then I could ask you questions all day long. I have another one so the difference between men and women. I've already heard you talk about the difference between men and women in terms of oxytocin during orgasm so women really respond. It sounds like quite more not just that they have the organs they have the sexual organs they get the breasts and the cervix and Vagina and they put us that have the oxygen receptors. And there's also this nervous the innovation that's a little bit different the Pew dental versus the pelvic nerve. That's interesting things I'm curious. Are there other differences. I've also heard that. ADHD Anti-tiger diuretic hormone acts more like oxytocin in terms of that connection hormone. And that's not so well the important thing that we that we don't understand we understand oxytocin very well as a hormone because we can measure it in the blood and we see what its effects are physiologically on the uterus and the and the breast but on Oxytocin the same neurons that produce the the oxytocin that is released into the land that gets into the bloodstream. They have branches that go to other other neurons in the brain so the same oxytocin can be released. Not only as a hormone but as neuro transmitter and we don't have any real understanding of the consequences the release of Oxytocin in the brain and what it's constantly effects are and that's a big A who is a big absence of of knowledge. So I'm sure that the oxytocin is released in women and men during orgasm in the brain but we don't know what it does and there is speculation that it has some something to do with bonding. But we don't really you know what that. What is bonding? What what what? What is we know? What bonding is behaviorally? But what what is the the stimulus Louis. What causes the desire to bond? have no idea you know so. There's just no more questions and answers glare can you speak more to this idea of eighty-eight of being a more influential and the male brain than oxytocin or I really really have only heard this from like no. I don't know I don't know really good evidence of it. I mean the only evidence that I know about. H It's the stuff that Sukarno did objecting adph and and oxytocin into the brains in prairie voles and seeing huddling or sexual stimulation But to extrapolate men. I I don't see you know I don't think it's premature to extrapolate out there. You know we don't even know if to say that That oxytocin produces huddling in prairie voles. Yet they huddled together. Is that bonding or is is a some some. Perhaps that the oxytocin is changing their temperature really. They're cold and they're cold and they're just huddling to keep warm. Who who and what is this? I don't even know what this is prairie voles. Little little little rodents little well Prairie rodents so. That was the original stuff on onto those introducing cuddling. All that it's a bit even that is is a big problem The evidence on that so we don't know stuff and there's a lot lot to learn the motivation. We don't understand motivation. In general you know so well I hope some. Some people are motivated to have sex axe. After this conversation I wanted I wanted to add. Is that as we were talking Mentioning when you mentioned that women can have orgasms from nipple stimulation. Yeah that's been documented and They're also the documentation of women can have orgasms from obviously clitoral or vaginal or cervical stimulation. or or combinations of in other words stimulation of any of these genital sensory nerves or the nerves from the from the breast can can produce Orgasms uh-huh and what we see is when we map the they projection of these different genital regions onto the onto the brain. And we see that different clumps the different groups of neurons are activated by each each of those but that means that if you stimulate them altogether you're actually stimulating many more neurons and by stimulating many more neurons. That's having a much more powerful full input to the orgasmic mechanism and so- combining different regions combining stimulation of the different regions clitoris vagina cervix and and nipple abreast activates. Many more neurons and will produce a much stronger more complex complex and probably more pleasurable or interesting and then what if we take the opposite. Can you have an orgasm without any physical stimuli. Can you just have visual skeptical. I one of the one of our colleagues Gina. Ogden said that she's a sex therapist. She this is years ago she. She claimed that She some of her clients have orgasms just by thinking without any physical stimulation. I was very skeptical. Beverly whipple was very skeptical so we did a study study where we measured blood pressure heart rate pupil diameter and pain thresholds pain sensitivity in the in the intent of these women that gene Ogden said can have orgasms without any physical stimulation so we we observe them. They're lying still on the lying still in in the lab and we're monitoring their their pain thresholds and their Heart rate blood pressure pupils. And indeed we asked them to have an orgasm just by thinking without any physical self stimulation and also have an orgasm by gentle self-stimulation and we compare the physiological responses and basically each of the responses doubles during Orgasm in other words the heart rate doubles blood pressure doubles pupil diameter doubles and the pain threshold doubles. In other words it becomes when pain threshold. Doubles means that They become. I'm as sensitive to pain. As before elevating the threshold makes them less sensitive to paint everything doubles and in fact we found that in these women who said that they could have organised just by thinking we approximately doubling of all these measures equivalent into when they when they had their orgasms by physical self stimulation. So they really were having orgasms. I'm convinced we will. We publish that. We've convinced and now we're looking at the brain activity in some of these women and we see that the same brain regions are activated when they think themselves. What do you think of? It makes me think of like pubescent boys right like this idea of a wet dream can are. They having an orgasm in their sleep but you the problem with wet dreams is that it's possible that they're actually getting you know they're rubbing on action. Getty physical stimulation. We don't know maybe not. Maybe maybe not but here these women relying on the back not moving I actually I asked them. What do you know how how do you do it? And it was very variable. Some some women said that they had You know erotic thoughts of their their there Lover of others of sweet. Nothings whispered in the ear But others had another very abstract Ah Thinking of activation of the shockers going up and down the spine and others said they had pastorale scene of Walking along the shore a warm afternoon so different strokes different folks apparently very it has been an absolute pleasure to have this conversation with you. I have learned so much and I really really enjoyed this conversation. These are so many of the burning. Earning questions that you're embarrassed to ask and to be able to sit here and chat with an expert about how it all works this has just been I feel so fortunate. So thank you for sharing your. I think that we really have to open it up. Get the sunshine in these. Are everybody everybody everybody wants to know about it. And there's there's so much misunderstanding and ignorance about sexuality. I feel that you know it's really important to just get the information to people you know and take get get rid of the mystery and the help you enjoy it. How people experience my pleasure and connection get rid of the guilt the problems anyway? I'm happy to thank you for doing your part that you have. You really. Were right on target target Bullseye. Each time you really understand you understand the issues and and really really you a pleasure chatting with you very. I have no doubt that our listeners really value this conversation and as soon as we put sex sex and the title. I'm sure we're going to get tons and tons of listeners. If people have questions you know be happy to answer it with service checking in touch with you. Have Email B. R. K. at Psychology Dot Workers Dot Edu R U T G E R S dot Edu my initials Vr K.. And that's the best way. That's the best way to contacting similar questions about or send me if you collect questions semi Some of the questions by email or we can have another one of these sessions. I'd be happy to do that. You're really a pleasure speaking with you. Same I'm famous really enjoyed it. Thank you for being with us for this conversation with Dr Berry. Commiserate remember this. PODCAST is made possible by neuro. Hacker collective go use the coupon code podcast fifty. Ta For an additional fifteen percent off your first order at Neuro Hawker Dot Com. You have any questions about this content. Please leave them on our site at neuro hacker dot com slash podcast and will work to get those answered on a future episode like this episode. Then please go leave us a five star review on I tunes and share it with all of your friends and make sure to subscribe to collective insights wherever you listen to podcasts. So you don't Miss Episode Cenex time.

oxytocin sensory nerves muscle tension pleasure center Oregon nucleus accumbens Epileptic seizures dopamine partner depression Dr Berry TRAUMAS Heather
Welcome to todays PEP Talk  The Disconnection Syndrome  Episode #16

Pep Talks

19:11 min | 7 months ago

Welcome to todays PEP Talk The Disconnection Syndrome Episode #16

"Hello. Dr. Jackie and welcome today's pep talk the disconnection syndrome. Episode Sixteen. In March's pep talk podcast the trickery of the food industry episode thirteen I discussed the Nucleus Accumbens, the pleasure center of the brain and how the food industry seeks to hijack the nucleus accumbens. So consumers will consume more of their unhealthy chemical laden foods. I also discussed how the prefrontal cortex assists an individual making healthy decisions and if the prefrontal CORTEX and the amid della are not communicating properly, it can cause an individual to be more self focused and impulsive. Today I want to talk a little more consequential, his win, the prefrontal CORTEX and the amid delays become disconnected. As I mentioned in Marches Pep Talk Doctors David and Austin Pearl Mutter have written a book entitled Brainwash They were on the Doctors Pharmacy podcast with Dr Mark Hyman. And they discussed a syndrome that they have coined disconnection syndrome. They explained that the disconnection syndrome is a biological disconnection between the prefrontal CORTEX and the amid. Della. As doctors explained the amid Dulas, the Migdal alerts and individual to danger and the prefrontal cortex evaluates. So to speak the middle middle is notification to ensure that it is something that the body needs to respond to. For, example, let's say you're walking to your car at night and you hear a noise win the prefrontal cortex and the amid della. Properly. When they're connected, they can determine together if it is a noise that requires you to fight or flee or if it is an innocuous noise. I am recording this pep talk during the coronavirus pandemic and I believe this information is particularly relevant as the media is focused on reporting information that feeds a sense of fear. As the doctors explained during their interview, the media seeks to activate the victim. The manner in which they report is intentional because the more you feed the fear center of your brain, the more the fear center wants to be fed. It is vital that there is a strong communication between the MIC Della and the prefrontal CORTEX. The doctors stated that there is an epidemic in the world where the where people's prefrontal CORTEX and make delay are disconnected where they are not communicating properly. The doctors explained that this biological disconnection is creating a psychological disconnection as well. People are more disconnected from themselves from their neighbors from from other people and from other people's views. The doctors indicated this disconnection hinders people from being concerned about the health of our planet and has created an US versus them mentality. the, doctors commented on how the world is more divisive than what they've ever seen before I have to admit I agree with them on the US as the doctor stated, there is a divisiveness about everything in our world. It seems anyway whether it is about the the Diet that's considered the healthiest diet or whether it's about politics, the amount of anger and hatred that people are speaking and typing towards individuals who have a differing view from their own. Is really quite heart wrenching. I believe something that makes this world work is the fact that we are all different. We have different approaches and we have different ideas and really think about that for a minute. What would the world be like if we were all the same and we've everything from the very same perspective? Why do people feel threatened by someone who thinks differently than they do? and. If you're interested in exploring that concept a little bit more, please be sure to check out episode the my podcast episode eight curiosity versus fear. All right. Let's review for a moment here. The prefrontal CORTEX is essential to making healthy well, thought out decisions. The, prefrontal CORTEX is referred to as the adult. Weighs the pros and cons about a decision including future consequences. It assists with clear decision making and decisions about once future. It also assess with connection with empathy which assists with creating healthy relationships. The MIC Della is the fighter flight. It helps us to know when we are in danger so that we can run or fight. The middle is associated with self-centeredness and impulsively. Both of these parts of the brain are essential and if they are not healthy and if they are not communicating with one another, it will create within an individual to divisiveness conflict hatred fear. An impulsive mindset. I am hoping at this point, you're asking what creates this disconnection between the prefrontal cortex and the amid della that feeds the psychological and societal disconnection. Well, there are numerous factors which impact your brain health including the connection between your prefrontal Cortex in your mic. Della. Nutrition, is a significant factor if you're consuming a diet that is void of the necessary nutrients needed for your brain to function optimally your prefrontal Cortex and your deloitte will be dysfunctional. There is no getting around us. And any of my clients. That have worked with the no I talk a great deal about nutrition. Now I'm not saying that just because you consume a poor diet, you're going to be full of hatred. However, you may demonstrate other symptoms which indicate that you're prefrontal CORTEX is not functioning optimally such as you may struggle to make healthy decisions for yourself or your lack of compassion or empathy for others. Nutrition can also impact inflammation in your body. If you're eating inflammatory foods such as chemicals, hormones, sugar, gluten and dairy, your body will be inflamed and your brain will be inflamed as the doctor stated. Inflammation is the number one cause of death via chronic degenerative diseases which develop due to inflammation. As explained by the doctors, inflammation threatens the connection between the PREFRONTAL CORTEX and the amid Alah. And the standard American diet the acronym, which is sad quite appropriate. is threatening our behavior, our decisions, and it's fostering an US versus them mentality because it inhibits the connection between the prefrontal CORTEX and the amid. The doctors also noted that systemic inflammation creates symptoms of depression and increases one's risk for dementia. Inflammation. So nutrition is a huge amount that impacts impacts inflammation and inflammation also develops due to a lack of restorative sleep, a lack of exercise, a lack of a connection with people and with nature. In fact, the doctor stated one night of sleep deprivation led to a sixty percent increase in activation of the amid della when people were confronted with negative images something that was threatening. Versus those who received a good night's sleep. Now think about that for a moment. Sixty percent increase in the activation of the amid della. So when you have not had sleep. The the tendency for your brain to identify danger. or to even be looking for problems is going to be higher because that amid della is being activated at a higher level than than at the individuals who had a good night's sleep. The doctors explained that a good night's sleep can placate the amid de la or at least it can assist in keeping it more level. So, do you have enough deep sleep and is it restorative sleep? Because as the doctors explained, it's not just quantity. It's not just clocking in seven or eight hours a night it's about the quality of the sleep. And the doctors indicated that sleep is associated with a decrease in inflammation and cortisol. And Inflammation and excessive cortisol can decrease the availability of Serotonin in the brain. Another factor that enables the disconnection syndrome is chronic. Stress. The doctors explained that chronic stress is an issue in our lives, and now it is known that chronic stress disables the prefrontal CORTEX. According to studies, neurons shrivel up in the prefrontal. CORTEX. When exposed to chronic stress while in the MIC Daloa they expand you get more dendritic branches as it creates more connections in the Nikola. Again. This moment this was a new concept for me. I was not aware of this that when we are under chronic stress. The prefrontal CORTEX is shriveling up and our Migdal is getting bigger. The doctors explained that being exposed to chronic stress is rewiring the brain to favor the types of activity that creates chronic stress. When you are exposed to chronic stress you kill the brain cells in the prefrontal. The adult. And it makes the ones grow in the part of the brain associated with divisiveness anger running or fighting, which is the middle. When there is disconnection of the prefrontal. CORTEX, from the Magdala. The amid delay makes decisions without the prefrontal CORTEX. The doctors indicated that this has been demonstrated in long term human studies as evidenced by a smaller prefrontal cortex in humans who are experiencing chronic stress. When you are experiencing chronic stress, you are rewiring your brain. To be two. To inhibit that prefrontal CORTEX, it's actually shrinking it and it's making the amid della. Bigger and so you are going to be more prone to be. Looking for. Information that's the best way of saying that looking for information that feeds that divisiveness that feeds the anger because again, we have neuro plasticity of the brain and when we are hindering the prefrontal cortex and we are growing that amid Alah and they're not communicating between the two of them we are are seeking to. To to participate in activities and to look for information that creates that stress and that will continue to feed that amid. Gelo. The doctor stressed the importance of individuals assess saying they're so so so media usage as the doctors explained we as human beings we need to be connected with others and I think that is so incredibly important. We want to be integrated and when people feel connected to others, they are physically and emotionally healthier. The hormone oxytocin connects us and it also integrates the prefrontal CORTEX with the amid de la and it allows them to communicate. When we have an increase in oxytocin. Is when we feel connected to others and we were designed to be connected with with others, and recently we are becoming more isolated even though people are utilizing social media platforms. The doctors expressed, it's important for people to assess if they are fostering good strong social bonds or are they being polarized against other people? So when you go on social media, how many posts are you reading? That are that are are opposed that you disagree with are you seeking to build empathy or are you looking to become more divisive and is your brain now being wired to look for information that creates that divisiveness? The doctors also encourage people to evaluate their just their media exposure in general. They indicated that there's A. Bias and this might have served as well. Negative bias again within the brain and that this might have served us well during ancestral times to be really aware of things that were potentially threatening ties however, today were being preyed upon by the negative media and it lights up the amid La and the more the Migdal of functions and the more grows the more that. We struggle to tap into that prefrontal CORTEX which allows for forward thinking and empathy. So the doctors are saying possibly back in the day it served us for our amid it to be more active and for it to be maybe more aware however, in today's world, the the tendency of the media to be negative to feed that an Nikola is creating problems for us. The doctors talked about how the Dow Dalai Lama said that the brain you build reflects the life you lead. If you're exposing yourself to negativity and fear based kinds of media, you will rewire your brain to gravitate more towards that type of life. I loved that I absolutely loved that again. The Dalai Lama. said that the brain you build reflects the life that you lead. If. You're exposing yourself to negativity and fear based kinds of media. You will rewire your brain took gravitate more towards that type of life. So not just the media that you're reading but everything in your life, you are going to be more prone to be gravitating towards negatively. You know I'm not a huge fan of social media or overexposure to media in general. And I encourage you prior to going online take a moment to identify your goal. What's the purpose of you going online? Is there space particularly if it's with regards to any kind of social media? Is there something specifically that you're looking for? Are you being mindful and intentional? And I want you to think about the time that you spent online. Did it enrich your life? Did you walk away feeling more peaceful and content? Or were you more angry and upset? As the doctor stated technology is a useful servant and a dangerous master. I love that. Are you in control of your technology or is it controlling you? Okay I threw a lot at you. I WANNA. Take a moment to summarize what I'm hopeful. You will walk away with from this podcast. The prefrontal CORTEX and the Nikola need to communicate with one another in order for us to be balanced individuals as well as a healthy society at large. Factors which influence the communication between the PREFRONTAL CORTEX and the amid della include nutrition. Sleep. Stress Levels. Media exposure. As, well as physical activity and time and nature. By eating a nutrient dense diet. Connecting with individuals and person. Getting restorative sleep. And minimizing your exposure to fear based media. You are cultivating the healthy connection between your prefrontal cortex and your amid lap. I encourage you to think about. Your prefrontal Cortex and your mic Della. and Are you. Exposing yourself to negatively so that you're gravitating more to negatively because you rewiring your brain in that way. Or are you working to have more positive experiences in your life as I mentioned in last month's pep talk gratitude is a great way to help nurture that prefrontal CORTEX and possibly. Ensuring that you are including gratitude in your life in addition to nutrition sleep stress levels, getting out nature and connecting with other people that might be just one more technique that you can include to help keep that balance between. The prefrontal CORTEX and the amid della so that you don't experience this disconnection center. Thank you so much for joining me today. I encourage you to. Today.

Inflammation CORTEX Doctors Pharmacy Doctors David della Nikola US Nucleus Accumbens Dr Mark Hyman Dr. Jackie oxytocin cortisol Dow Dalai Lama La Alah Della.
Robots! Christian Hubicki Talks Westworld

Post Show Recaps

1:24:36 hr | 1 year ago

Robots! Christian Hubicki Talks Westworld

"Everybody Josh Very here. We are back some additional coverage of westworld season three. The season three premiere dropped earlier. This week Joe Garfield and I already have our recap up on post show recaps but this season bringing special guests as we can on rolling basis to go through your feedback to talk about the show theorize. Talk about nonsense. Sure much nonsense to be discussed here in this space and to that end it gives me great joy to bring in my first nonsense partner. Somebody who I have not talked to on an official podcast microphone since longtime ago in a jungle very far away but a man who is who knows a thing or two about the technology at the heart of Westworld. It is the great robotics expert himself. A full-on David the great professor Christian. Who Vicki thanks? Josh is great to be did. I don't do the interest as well as robbed us. Oh you don't have the Stinger with with the bell. You don't want this to one but it's a wonderful thing you need your one thing. I WANNA wombat sounds like there's I don't think that's what it sounds like. It's possible it is. You can always that could be your Stinger. I guess I'm not sure how that will go over in the long run but a few times of real areas we'll see we'll see if we can come up with. Oh let's crowd source of wombat noise. If anybody has a good suggestion for wombat noise we can Have that bewigged. Lers BELL IS. The is the sound of a wombat. Christian of course if you are not a survivor. Fan Christian played on survivor you spectacular and survivor. He's a great friend of mine and it really is actually pretty crazy to me. Christian never would have guessed this. That are first time podcasting together after I went out on a westworld. Podcast I feel like this is probably just going to Mutate into a grant. Excuse to talk about survivor. We'll see where it goes will. I'm sure we'll find some topics but yet the IT seemed. I'm glad you reached out to me about this Josh. 'cause you know is my my. I am a professor and I and my research is in the. Isn't robotics particularly robots that they get up walk around two legs so like so. I know a lot of people watch westworld and have questions about it. And so when you said you went to a feedback episode about like. Oh it's the perfect you know. Ask questions about Westworld. The robot The robotics technology is involved. And you know we. We can talk through it. It'll be fun. How're you doing Christian state of the world very a lot happening right now? I'm sure everyone would love to know just to check on you and make sure that everything's going okay so I am fine here. I'm actually down in Tallahassee. Florida mean emily. We'RE WE'RE PRETTY. Well sheltered in an isolated so basically emily emily something. We look at at on the island as well and we're fine and in terms of my class load. All professors are having to learn how to online thankfully though for me. I don't have any teaching road this term. So as a result I can focus on my research and a lot of that I can do from home. Which is nice although robots artistic I'm getting a little lonely in the lab right now. I think about it You know so. Maybe they could use some you know. They're they're getting some mandatory social distancing themselves so I'm sure they're going in and checking in on them making sure that they they've got occasional companionship or they they're having a tough it out like the rest of us. I went into this past weekend. Gave a little tour checked in our robot. Cassie it's kind of an ostrich looking robot and it's kind of sitting there. I stretched his legs a bit just to show it off. But you know it's it's it's it's doing okay so far and I'll keep cokie going in to check on it at least once a week. So who wins in a fight Casio Dolores? This is not a question we receive but it's a question that I have. I believe door. Lord's has a gun so I think that's a big advantage and she. Basically unstoppable it. Looks like we talk about the episode so we're whereas casino cash. He's pretty good at walking around it. Could you know? It doesn't need to see obstacles as it walks on them and can kinda recover which is which is cool but you know I think I think work doors could just shoot it so I gotta give the damage to add. Dolores I feel like we were talking about westworld on the island when you and I met in Fiji ahead of David Versus Goliath. I cannot remember the context but I absolutely remember. I think I was trying to map. What is like to work in robotics onto what it must be like to live in the world where Westworld is a thing because I'm dumb and thought it would be Shuki and maybe that would yield a fun sound bite feel like it probably did but at the same time I? I think that you're a great person to talk to you about all of this stuff because Joan and Lisa joy who make the show really pride themselves on doing their research and grounding this in some level of reality the technology that they are leaning on they're trying to work with experts in the field and look towards the future and what may or may not be possible while still maintaining that line of having an entertaining fantasy story basically from your perspective professor. How how does this all hold up as Westworld just like schlocky? Entertainment are there. Are there slivers of ideas in here that that really resonate with you Give us just the the lay of the land. So I'm glad you gave me that little piece of context in terms of the showrunner 'cause I purposely tried not to read what the show runners we're talking about so I could come in with like fresh opinions on that and in the research shows I am overall. My overall impression of the show is that they did their homework. And what they're showing. The show are reasonable science fiction the interpretations of things that happening today from everything from the From kind of centralize AI. That rehoboth him from this most recent episode. I thought that was interesting. I'm sure we'll talk about but like when I when I when I peel back a little bit robotics that they talk about Mike. Yeah no that's for. The most part is quite reasonable. It's not crazy and it. So I'm over all very impressed with the way they manage to make a futuristic SCI FI show about robots. Try and take over the world in something feel very grounded There are little things I think they are interesting touches that I can point out over the course of the podcast interesting or bad. There's lots of good interesting ones there. Also some some things that people that wouldn't that make sense they would get cut from the show is. You're making a sci fi show that are real problems with robots that are difficult to get over that they that they kind of become golfing away which is totally reasonable for a show like this but yeah so. I I guess I just worked. Start here I guess we have. We do have the The westworld robots overall westworld robots overall. Yeah I mean are we are we. I guess like so so this takes place in. We finally got a date on the board I think. Hbo Is Openly Saying Twenty. Fifty eight is when the show is taking place right. Now the premier takes place. I think that you could do the math when Bernard says when when is the last time you had contact with doors. Abernathy and ninety something days says about ninety days since they escaped the park so twenty fifty eight and thirty years past the point that they have started Thirty four years past the point that they have started doing the original stages of Dolores in the first run of hosts like back in like the Arnold era before all the fit hits the Shan in that regard are we does that mean what were years away is a twenty four is when is when Arnold is is building like the Deloitte mechanical the Lawrence in suicide. We're not there. We're not there that I'd say that's the one I mean I. I want to lead with a lot of praise generally for the show because they do a lot of things right but I have to point out like Warri. It'd be one thing to have four years from a robot that is reasonably practical in walking around But like the big macguffin for me towards the robotics One of you is that thinking it to be so human like and like like in so accurate. Like if you looked at Even those early versions of Dolores I. I don't know if that's one of the earliest versions of the show of its twenty twenty four or not but like at so convincing that so real and people are working on like animatronic faces making the more real and they're making progress but he is so good at detecting fakeness in human in human faces. Particular human human behavior generally and even like a next gen video gaming like even like like a like the highest quality playstation. Four game that has like the best graphics that you've ever possibly seen even like their depictions of what human being looks like the uncanny valley like fatigue off. Whatever that is like. We're not all the way there And to replicate that even in in our grounded reality of feels like we've got. We've got a long way to go before we're able to do that right. That's I think that to me. That's the biggest conceit of the show. I one of the bigger concede to the technology to show. Is that not only? Did he manage to make a robot that can interact in reality into practical things but it's it's convincingly an unmistakably human-like in that's the that is the biggest thing and your uncanny valley is the key term there and you pointed out that's a point. I often bring up when I've taught other Obama's Josh about look in. Cgi You know even in that perfect where we have control over every pixel you know at the best looking CGI that people come up with is like ended pixel by Pixel when they make Robert Downey junior space look younger in captain in marvel films and so like the artists are kind of like who are aided by computer by computer technology. But they're also like individually smoothing frames sometimes. So that's where we're at in computers as opposed to reality so yeah but but I will say that like the idea of like someone like Arnold or a team like an Arnold And Ford back in the day like a people who have who have vision Really making some big advances in robotics on their own is not crazy robot a while lots of technologies really require massive teams to make research progress medical science being one of them. I think there's lots of There's lots of research of these take place in order to make big advances. Sometimes you just get someone some some some guy or Gal who comes with the Roy smart idea and can put it in a robot something they hadn't seen before For instance there's A. There's a gentleman in Japan. I don't know his name but his youtube handle is pretty popular. He makes these tiny little humanoid robots that are about the size of a foot tall oak and neat and and Joe Yeah Yeah a little bigger than a Gi Joe and it looked like a robot it looks almost the like the real steel robots that from Hugh Jackman movie and they walk around in a really nifty way that can actually walking balance beam. They ride a little bicycle. This guy is like a like a crash and knows how to make these cool things like so so that idea of having a Ford afford in Arnold Getting the robots on their own. That's not crazy and I also like the idea. A vision of Westworld of having these humanoid robots and the logical party of rain will be like who would bother to spend all this money To make a theme park where you Mentally new to make a robot that is convincingly human just to convince people at a theme park. That's such a crazy idea but it works because four is kind of crazy right. And that's a critical piece of it. I can see kind of works and and there's parallels that in real life I mean there are real life entrepreneurs drag people Christian people there. I had to have a career ours. You've got a good record. Save NEAR THERE. But there are real life entrepreneurs ones you might not even know their names who will dump sometimes tens of millions of dollars into pre ambitious robotics projects like there's actually a And not to say this person that's crazy but there's actually there's extra project out of Korea where they built a two foot tall mech that walks and why for saw youtube video i. I didn't believe it at first like who would spend money. That's that will cost millions of dollars and sure enough some entrepreneurs Support over something. Like twenty five million dollars to build a giant mech. Now what they're gonNA do with that is is is is anyone's guess but like people do that kind of thing. Let's get into some of the technology that we are seeing in the current time line because it looks like by the end of the episode that the that the park itself is going to come back into play soon but for the vast majority of the premier we are seeing our world. We're seeing mostly Los Angeles in twenty fifty eight and we have Aaron Paul's character. Caleb who is working alongside a robotic construction worker. We had some questions about that that character's name is George as somebody who is a namer of robots. Do you like the name. George Robot Georgians fine for a robot. Everyone door just fine. I mean everyone has their own style of naming robots if it's a it's a series of robots. You know you often give it a lot more. Thought if it's just like this is my one clearly. The fact factory assembled robot call George why not says George? The robots distorts the robot. There's stuff like the RICO APP that Caleb is using which is like hand pocket grand theft. Auto Me Tuber. There's all these things. Are these implants in people's brains? That seemed like you can kind of like self medicate digitally. I'm struggling to figure out exactly what that is. What stood out you about sort of the future world. I think just in terms of the West road mythology does feel to me like they are. They're winking towards that. There was future world was a sequel to to Westworld Park in the Westworld universe. Maybe not I mean I I honestly I mean there was a future world. I forget what the names of the movies where I definitely watch both in the movies after came back and I and by the way I'd say I that first season of Westworld. I was so happy with that. It's one of the rare shows that the entire rest of the series to go off the rails and I wouldn't care because versus not going to watch that in it doesn't leave the so. I mean it kind of ends in a cliffhanger but at the same time I can just assume in my head how. The robot uprising goes forward from there. Finally that I love that many people did that. Many people did just watch that. I decided the show went off the rails. I'll just call it so and so one thing I do like about this. Premier is that it does the most world building this show has done since the premiere of the whole series In that they have to let the introducing you to the human world and they have to show you what that what the world's like so that way it makes sense that would go into a crazy theme park that makes sense that people would own a crazy theme park with with with robots in any sense of what people are like. And it's fairly missing throbbing view of humanity. Which is which is not a surprise if you've been to me based WANNA. Us World on a one of the things. I was at the premiere in in Hollywood a few weeks ago and Lisa Joy Journal. No one gave a big speech at the Chinese theater. In the Middle Hollywood before they aired the premiere for everybody and Lisa had sub cheeky comment about like our show exists in the future. And as you'll see we don't have a lot of hope for it has a way of like setting up. How they have a lot of how they have a lot of happiness and faith in their crew and everything which is like the world's pretty bleak right now and by our show you could tell we don't think it's getting much better. Wow Yeah I mean I. It's a in that certainly a viable view to take for a science fiction. Show I mean look and talk about a few technologies. I mean you mentioned the the implants and the end of the last time accurate expertise. Technically speaking I'm guessing that there's wafers very communion religious like wafers that people were eating like Catholic wafers I feel like a very intentional Visual choice that yet and so. I wonder if I'm allowed to use them your use them. I mean as as as as half Jewish person I don't know I. I don't know the rules Josh. I consulted expert on that but being taught by talk to theologian right. I I I think that Might like I don't like to do like predictions about what's going to happen but it's very clearly these implants and has mentioned this. This this This this God fearing part of the brain that the nucleus accumbens avert down I. I wouldn't be shocked if like if Dolores went in hacked. These implants that made human made all humans worship the robots God's I'd The the title of the episode is obviously. The religious. Imagery is all over the place in this episode entitled the episode what Parsi Domini Yep Yeah so which which brought me back to my my medieval music history days Which was in the past? But the I would love to do a separate podcast on that at some point. 'cause you can't just throw that out there and tell us more. Bachelor Medieval Music History. Sure I'll drop a story of yet but yeah there's so I am in that's entirely episode. Rehoboth. Oem Of course is at least either. Look it up in the Jewish king. I believe picking Judah it's like that's that's of course very baked in so I wouldn't be surprised if there's some message about the robots being the gods that we made that's really hammered Hammered home by the season. So that's that's good. I really like that. I think that that makes a Lotta Sense. As far as the implants people walk around computers in their heads. What is this? I don't know I mean the Tried to imply in the opening scene. They set up with that with. That doesn't mean man who Gets murder by. Dolores gets one of several Who Wafer to go to bed early. In presumably he coded it. He would sleep for six hours exactly six hours. So I don't know by eating the way for that can't be the implant You don't just digested implant so but somehow maybe it. I don't even know what the wafer how that correlates the implants are all your thoughts on that. Josh I am not clear on that. No the implants have really. I mean they're like just gives me like a lot of triggering memories of like a palate expanders from my youth. Not that I had one but I had a lot of friends who did and and I had to be a shoulder for them to cry on and I'm sure that many of you who had suffered the palate expanders can can only attest to the to the to the pain and torture. That comes such a device and to me all I can think of what I'm seeing. These people put the way for his in their mouth. You guys all opted for Palate expanders in the futures out. Desperate are we know. It looks like it's something like you'd like. Digest those waivers right. It looks like what's the character Caleb Reynolds his mom. Caleb Reynolds is the beast mode cowboy nichols is the Aaron. Paul can heal very fun. Season Premiere if Caleb from survivor was the caleb we were seeing on this show. Agata got so his mom actually takes a bite out of the way for so when she takes it. So there's some kind of correlation between maybe you program the Wafer and therefore you digest the way for the way for kids information to the implant which seems a little odd to me. Wouldn't you know? Presumably the implant could communicate wirelessly. You could actually just you could just program the dude things so. I'm not exactly sure what that relationship is but other than the obvious religious imagery. I think that they're going for but anyway. That's what I know at. There are lots of rocks in their. That'd be fun to talk about. Yeah so we've got a lot of feedback. Let's let's start getting into some of this stuff and one that I would love your insight on Christian if you if you saw what I did there because there's a company called insight I. I didn't see it on this show and I would just like to pause for a light applause Andrew. You had this question for you. Christian that circular graph that we're seeing throughout the episode. That has to be the insight supercomputer right. Are you somebody who can you? Shed some light on this sort of like big black circle. We're seeing on a big white background. That's talking about like big like critical events that are happening around the world. Did that make more sense to you than maybe it made sense to some of the rest of us. We clear to me either. Watch it because 'cause to make sure but yeah it to me it certainly is. That's real Hubble him making like making observations about the world in detecting detecting anomalies and Caleb is. Is it a NAMA. Upper small anomaly detected or something like that investigate that further. Yeah I mean. That's that's clearly like some kind of AI. Algorithm in almost certainly rehoboth him. That's looking at world events and taking a whole bunch of data and saying this does not quite correlate with what is determined to be normal. This is this is an outlier al. This is curious to me and I think that the to me the central plot point of this of this season's going to be about what is will run is reliable up to y and that's what that's that's that's clearly it so. I mean and so that's that's true in both what they actually bring up in the dialogue but also in the framing of each of these scenes like oh now we're in Los Angeles. What's this out so even even when when you're cutting into like the quote unquote of Hobo Him. Right like when we're when we're in these scenes the audio quality really suggest something dark really suggests something off really suggest something godly again like these gods that we've built. Was that the connotation that you that you took with it for me like I just can't not feel like there is a very sinister vibe. Every time we are cutting to one of the OH. It's definitely ominous the way that they frame it Now the the that doesn't necessarily mean that rehoboth itself is has some ominous intentions. And and that's something I like to talk about what people who are scared about robots taking over is that allow a lot of questions about the apocalypse do we have other apocalypse is to potentially fear then the robot one at the current moment everyone social distance socialness. Wash your hands wash hands and the end a lot of people are especially when I show off like my robot in the lab. I mean we booted up it stands up and starts walking around a bit and and you know there's kind of a mix of reactions when I have tours who watch this and some people think. Oh it's cool. It's robots walking around and other people are Kinda like you can see the the the reaction in the instant for some people some people. Kinda just recoil when take a step back just because it's so so odd you see a machine doing something that people do and they sort of instantly attribute intention to it when there is no intention behind are cassie robot rule. Literally there's a guy with a guy or a girl with a remote control saying go forward backward left and right that's the attention but looks like it's behaving as though it's it's an agent when it comes to these algorithms you can get all kinds of behaviors and that might seem like they have like intention behind it but really what they are doing is optimizing an objective. A goal that was given to it by the person who program that team programmed it and that can create some really interesting and unexpected behaviors. If you're not careful so it's possible that rehoboth Literally was coated to unlock human potential and Like A as was Liam. I believe his name said the he's not the founder of insight as the Sun Asahi's yet another founder and and he he said look. This is all about unlock human potential. But they're applying if someone's tinkering with it right. The oath is doing weird things. Maybe someone's tinkering with it. I would not be surprised if no one was tinkering with it and it's just doing what we asked but what we asked was ultimately horrible bike. Mea. It's doing its job and we didn't think so much about That aspect of it when we were creating the right right exactly and this and this happens in big ways and small ways in robotics algorithms. So so we'll do our them that are designed to make robots walk and we'll try them out in the computer simulation. I make sure we don't make the robot do something crazy. No break itself and in sometimes. If you're not careful you ask exactly what you want. It'll come up with crazy unexpected results like one time so we had the code the physics to this robot And we said here's a robot physics you're built at out of these parts. They way this much. You have these motors and this is what you can do with them. A here's the ground you can't go through the ground that's not allowed physics. Says you can't go through the ground and somehow the computer interpreted that and said okay. I can't go through the ground but I can start underground. That's okay and the and the robot was in. The computer was basically using the ground like monkey bars. Underground like weirdly interpreted what I said. I didn't tell you can't be underground. You just can't go through the ground so it was like he came up with this wacky solution on thought of that. I'm glad the robot in the real world and try that obviously would not work but again but that was just one example of how serve unintended consequences of the hour. Doing exactly what you ask of it. Language matters language matters. I must get some mathematical language like Like it And it might not be as complicated as you think you might. It would just be one line of code where we almost literally type no robot greater than or equal to height of ground. You must be above it boot right. That's it right and so Mike Bloom wanted you to just wax profound for an hour about the idea of Hobo him. You don't need to do that for a straight our uninterrupted but as far as what it is what it seems to be doing what insights agenda seems to be with it's data driven pursuits and the ways in which it seems to be like curator paths for us as human species. What are your thoughts about about some of this? I think that this really ties in pretty seamlessly with where we are in the age of social media which is only sharpening especially in the next however long. We're all like extremely online if you thought we were extremely online before what are your thoughts on home and what this seems to be suggesting From the perspective of the creators so so the allegory of Rehovot is is pretty clear to me in terms of in terms of modern day society. I mean we're talking about big data. You have your social media platforms at aggregate data things. We know what we want in this kind of extension of that and it's not the end. It's not the first. Sifi idea Story to talk about this kind of technology. I mean you know. Even Captain America to had this Algorithm. That was trying to predict who would be problems for. Hydra and stuff like that and and the I robot movie the Will Smith from probably decade pass. There was a big overseeing which basically we gave a lot of power to it. Misinterpreted what we want. It gave got it but one thing it made clear to me I when I was From technology in the West in in the westworld world that they're building the building in front of our eyes is that I was looking at physical computer. It's just like that big sphere in that building and very accessible. It says in the lobby it on. Dj Lebel client had issues with this. I actually I did have a little issue with it at In terms of someone big Gulp on it. You know we still have big gulps future. There are don't know whether they're west gulps. Their problem with Delo scopes the Adila by owns. The things never change. I think big GULPS are here to stay. I think so you know we still use wheels. Still have a so. There are a couple of thoughts one thing that made me realize about the world. They're building is that technology. The almost certainly in twenty five twenty. Whatever when he fifty something. They've cracked the problem of superconductivity at room. Temperatures Joffe reward of a superconductor a button. Light me in more scientific So so as people have heard you know. There's certain materials that conduct electricity. So copper is is is is a big one you know. It's it's in your own in copper. Wires conducting electricity and copper wires. All wires have resistance to them. Meaning that when you when you when you flow electricity through it. It resisted `electricity a little bit and burns away a little bit the energy in the form of heat so heats up rank but then scientists discovered that if you take certain materials down the super low temperatures talking near absolute Absolute Zero temperatures Not only does resistance. Go Down your resistance actually becomes literally zero not close zero but actually zero and that creates all kinds of weird cool properties. So like you take if you take a conducting material disc of social of a superconductor put in liquid nitrogen cooled down. It's a superconducting state. You can take a permanent magnet and then put it right on top of the superconducting disk. levitated there. You're just lactate and Because the that that magnet is actually inducing electric current in the disk which in turn produces its own magnetic field which pushes the magnet back so floats there which is super cool in the reason why that would be important for something like rehoboth him is that you have this massive sphere of computer right and anyone who owns a computer as a laptop on your lap for long enough it heats up right would melt right through the ground. Yes it would not follow the robot protocols that you have laid out previously precisely precisely and so and there was no. It wasn't some kind of Kreil cooled environment or anything. It just sitting there in a room by itself and then it sort of clicked with me. It's like okay. It's not just rehoboth which you probably made a superconducting materials. Probably also the little westworld robot. Brains the pearls I think they call them pearls they're probably superconductors too. Because I realized you know there are these very powerful computers just inside the robot's head. They can't have that you know frying the robot brains from the inside so this world is almost certainly correct. Cracked a room temperature superconductivity. So like so for instance Nowadays we have what are called high temperature superconductors in by high temperature means they need to be in like nitrogen that's temperature means so either. Room temperature is a really tough nut to crack I happen to work next door to the applied. Superconductivity at Florida state. So and and that would be if any one of those guys guys. Girls saw solved that problem. They win Nobel Prize for sure. Well we we had a lot of questions about about future tech in how close we are to it. And this from Brent shower man which piece of futuristic technology that we saw the premiere was the most realistic in which was your favorite. Does this qualify? What do you think that what we're seeing here with superconductor technology at room temperature with Rowbotham within thirty some odd years is that is that possible? If I knew the answer to that question I can make a good amount of money timing. I would be returning my calls for the West World Still Return recalls but at the same time. I'll be like you're people talk to. My people will set up a direct line. Do you any me with any of these major breakthroughs in science. It's very hard to know if in when they could come through. I mean we're for things like who would have thought like super doctors themselves would have been discovered at any point when found like. Oh Wow it. Changes changes a lot So it's very hard to predict when they'll come but but that's one thing I noticed about about the world like okay. This is world was superconductor with room temperature. Superconductors things make a lot of sense You know the Pearl. You mentioned the supercomputer. We're seeing here with with apply to something like hovercrafts that we're seeing in the sky or is that is that totally separate. That'd be a similar ISH. So like superconducting would be great for anything having to do with like computation and to some degree with like levitating. Some stop with magnets that would be useful but still whenever you want to move something around the world that that requires energy in that enter in that and now anything having to do with energy. Then you're you're talking. Laws of thermodynamics and thermodynamics is the study of energy so like so if you want to if you wanted to take that hovercraft men dressed up into the sky that pseudo can take effort from a battery. Pack or whatever's on board right. So that's so that that would still be a hard. A hard constraint of physics seemed pretty clean though compared to some of the vehicles. We're using today and I know from from speaking with Nolan. Enjoy that self driving cars and everything that we're seeing in the premier. Their vision of the future is. This is one that they think is absolutely going to happen. That we're absolutely going to move into a world where where you know. Automated traffic is a completely changed game. I believe sub. This isn't the exact quote but this is the spirit the quote that no-one said like the way that like we look back at people in the eighteen. Hundreds that everybody owned a horse and carriage is antiquated is the way that people down. The line are going to look back at how all of us had cars and all of us just like polluted our streets with with with with automobile traffic and this one he thinks is is accurate. It feels to me like the show has something of a vision of a cleaner energy future. Yeah that's not crazy vision of the future for sure. We are aware of these self driving car companies you know. They're trying to put their cars on the road. I so it's not crazy to think that they could've updated crack that problem by twenty fifty but I'm actually at one of the people who think that it's going to be much harder problem than people expect to put these things on the road in reality. Just because the safety concerns are are so paramount's you know it will allow the technology that we all a lot of the technology we have in terms of algorithms are working relatively low stakes. Environments are for instance. The autocorrect on your phone. You know it probably is probably helpful. A lot of time occasionally gives you a really weird thing very strange very strange thing but at the the worst case scenario that it gives you a very strange suggestion for a word and you're annoyed and you have to believe in type it out yourself if someone if someone's life was the line based upon Arna autocorrect We'd be a little scary. Maybe you like your social life is on the line. Let's say the wrong thing. If you really did mean to say duck you know then. It translates the wrong way. Yeah you know it's really good that's true it's true at same time. We also say Dang Yada correct and recover from it but you're right but like like Lives on the line from something that was only as reliable as autocorrect. I think we'd we'd have a different view of the readiness of the technology. And that's and not that. That's a little parallel to what happened with autonomous cars. But it just shows that the companies who are who are trying to develop them who have to end are hitting safety very seriously and that could be a very long time before we get that really WanNa take could be decades but is again this. Twenty fifty eight twenty. Yeah so that's that's not. That's not crazy totally viable view of the future. And and what do you think of the the intent behind Robo this idea of collecting our data curing our choices as a result. Does this feel like Somebody's got this ambition for sure. Oh sure I mean like I I mean I I would be lying if I said I didn't have an ambition like that at some point I mean like I think I think that you could totally see someone with the with the means and the particular skill expertise to actually try to implement it so on a couple of things about rehoboth in terms of how I look at it in terms. Realism the idea of collecting a whole bunch of data and processing it and trying to predict what's What people will do end or what to what to do in response? Yeah that's totally a Reasonable ambition and within theoretically what a technology could do with with with existing artificial intelligence and machine learning. I mean we all different components. You know several than we actually do today right. I mean any time. Go on Amazon and you WANNA buy something. It'll say you know people like you also wanted by this right. That's an algorithm that's pointing a whole bunch of data. Say trying to correlate that purchase. You made to what other purchasers you might. WanNa make right. So that part is Israel. We also have We also have things like like deep mind the company deep mine. Who makes things like the the Alpha go the go playing algorithms right at play Go or starcraft. So you'll have computers that will generate strategies in a more limited context. But that's but that's not I mean that's not a crazy thing I mean we use that sometimes in legged robotics too so the thing. That would be tricky. Is that one. You're taking data from all over the world and you're not only trying to analyze need and try and make predictions about risk and things that are going to happen. you're also directing presumably. What people should do as a consequence and And driving all of humanity into some new gene right. They had to basically transform their society. It seems to combat the climate crisis what they applied right right the Liam said basically Liam is being publicly credited for for for solving the world's climate crisis via strategy so in order to do that presumably they the our them said Oh. We should invest in this industry. We should make people do this or have this kind of social reconstruction here and you're driving humanity until completely different state for which you don't really have data so you have to be able to make really good predictions about how society would behave in a completely different state while having prior data to know what would happen. And that would be like the biggest to me. Sticking point of technology like rehoboth where it's literally trying to reshape society based upon the data. It has seen you called really good shot. I think with wafers. And I I would love to know. If you've got a prediction for how this is going to factor into the game of the season. Dolores is very fixated on insight and Rogo him what she walked with what she gonNa do with it. Yeah there's a lot of hard for me to read like deloris beyond the obvious that she wants her over her fast dress. Changing was just absolutely fabulous the obvious upright and surface level stuff that you just enjoy the premier league has a thrill ride. Did you think that they did an effective job on that front overall? I did I think that We can talk about this. Maybe in more detail but like so. I went back from watch. The Premiere Season One as well. And I still think to me that stands out as one of my favorites sequences in the whole show when they're introducing the Laura's in Teddy as these automatons in their loop in the westworld and it was really engaging I got exactly what the world was about from that. And the this premier and contacting in contrast it's basically a horror movie where Where is the movie monster who kills that? Guy's name the German ready. I believe readies. Leeann actress Thomas Krishnan. If you're a marvel guy he was baron Vaughn structure in avengers age of ultra thought. I recognize got it and he was in the in the in the in the Post Pratt sequence of the first event yet I remember look once again getting too close to the robots. Yeah it seems to backfire right right so there were there were lots of parallels also for some reason just me pink men again a world where he can't pay his medical bills to a life of crime or so so The what was I was. I was talking about The BROUSSEAU Starts OFF THE HORROR? Sequence of floors comes in murders. That guy gets Ronnie and she kind of monologues like her. You know her part of her plan right. So I'm like. Is this the Wyatt character? By the way is this the Wyatt Personality Circuit? She had said in season two that she has the farm girl. She has the farmer's daughter. Dolores has Wyatt. Who's the killer and now? She's like incorporating those identities to to her own path so. This is a long winded way that I enjoyed it overall. One thing I. I'm curious to learn more about like what makes these characters tick. Even though I theoretically should know that that's looking more for for two more in the season like I know that Dolores was the dominate. The world. I know that she Wants to She's she's a bad ass. She can kill people and she she is. She is coach taste in dresses. I and she said what they got like that. She said that she said to Victor Van Straten or whatever. His name was That we all have our weaknesses. Yeah I'm curious. What hers is I don't know if it's something that we've already seen a lot of Ano- that teddy was scared of her last season. Yeah I think that her weakness is she's a little black and white and her thinking right like she's like it's US versus them rights and I think that introducing the Caleb character into the mix is meant to challenge that that meant to challenge her notion of actually humanity may have potential. Actually humans aren't all just the people who came to Westworld that that will be great. That's the stuff I'll be looking forward to more in the season. 'cause like an opening sequence of. Westworld like I I. I feel like I got that. Here's Teddy here is into Lawrence. You know there are these Naive creatures taught. They're they're caught in this loop but they're gonNA stroke slowly realized that you know that that they're basically just being objectified birthday. They have no. They're being being. You're being used as like an I felt for them in that moment. I think that will start to feel more as I feel more for the characters going on. I think will be even more engaged. I think that no moment made me laugh. More though at the end in any laugh in a good way I feel when they feel unveiled the Nazi occupation of star cackling. I'm like okay. That was the most fun I felt I had. During the episode is the people do not open the Ark of the Covenant and get their faces melted off in a future of West road then. I think that they really didn't do their jobs. Yes so so so I I enjoyed it overall. I think it was a lot of setup and that they had to do which makes sense. 'cause they have a whole new world to do? I'm I look forward to the emotional payoffs that come. That's waiting for right so so back back on that point of what you think Dolores might want out of insight like given what roebling was was created to do. How does that intersect with Lawrence's kind of idea of dominion over mankind? How could this be useful in that pursuit? And can you see a way of connecting that to the waivers? I mean I think that the the the obvious way which is designed to give people their path a path for everyone right and she's GonNa hijack that path to be about Being gory onto the robots and that that would be the obvious way to go in that she could redirect off. Manitou toward you know. Glorifying the robots and Georgia's self extinct and that in that That self extinction would not be crazy. Either way the hind source set that up with what who again the the German? Man Friedrich your. They've get invited by Victor. Von Stuck her you gave him of what's Go- With Friedrich von Cedric Right now. Cwc Steve The skull. Steve See so So like she didn't Hell Steve. Just let Steve Connector. Her obscene had his nature just like human nature and in extinct it himself so that was like a chicken flying the coop but chickens coming home to roost. Straight way in a way where like they reference the. It was an accident that happened in a similar manner and this has been self extinct himself in a way that echoes passed. So very thematically you can see how that's that's that's Etching onto this idea of were doomed to repeat our mistakes right so. That's an obvious way. I mean it. Also there's like there's even worse. General had things that she she needs weapons in the war against the humans and she got her money she got it from Steve and she also got a now now. She gets the ability to predict even better. What all humans going to do in the world right? I mean that's that's a really obvious way. But that's too general. I think he's going to be something very specific. And I think it's going to have to do with hijacking the waivers to make in that part of the brain that she said of the the nucleus accumbens rod is. It's accurate that in in in that character so you you talked about wanting to see like the emotional payoffs this season And this is from just Joe. Have you ever noticed anyone having an emotional attachment to robots? You've worked on if not I'm wondering what stage with that happened. And would it be based purely on appearance or behavior or both so? That's a great question. I get that in tours and people surprised by the answer. I mean like like I don't have an emotional attachment to the robots and most of the people that work really closely with them. I don't either. I don't call Cassius. She I call it knit and when it's walking around and it pays in Weird Way. I I I more think of it as a manifestation of the programming that either me or my colleagues put into it and we're trying to decipher it with. It's more like a mechanism written in code to me than a living creature. That's with a with a behavior an intent now people who come in and see Cassie for first time shortly Robot there many other robots out there like when they were of you. See some of those cool. Boston dynamics videos online those of the robots that jump around duparc core the they see something that has an intent and think of it as like a creature almost and I think that the closer you get to work on these things in the morning understand. What's under the hood? The more the more it's it's not something that's Atomic time in something that the is more something that can be understood so as In that we can really cruel ways in the show like. We saw the chop shop people where they called The butchers butchers all right. So like like they call them the butchers. And like you know they have no like revulsion even though they're kind of torn apart human innards in a way because they they see what it's made of it's not human to them right arm so yeah so so overall. I mean so. We'll but what would it take to have an emotional connection to it? I think that like if my cassie suddenly stood up it's like Christian Haven't seen you. You've been so violating socially dissipate for me. How's it going? I know it's been tough Karan's I would have reaction to that for sure. It certainly developing. Something's going on here. I just a baseball Bat Smash Smash Burger Gill for the audience. Member interest always members. Who who are curious like such such a thing is not a realistic box. And they'll even just in terms of like the coding itself just like I try to the way. I tried to explain. The coating to people is because it's all like this weird blackbox to you if you have never seen inside of what went on in the code it could be the most complicated thing on the planet. It's actually probably. I'll watch simpler than you might expect. And in what? I try to help people that you could take the album that we use to run something like our robots and you could make the algorithm work in excel like spreadsheet. Yes the bunch of kind of like numerical equations all in a row and so so the software that does your taxes is probably know theoretically less complicated or likely come self aware than the robots. You'RE GONNA see on Youtube or things like that just just in case people who some people do get scared about that sort of thing but yeah definitely no vocal box. Either Josh I but but there is a speaker is a speaker on their own and the fun things we like to think about our like or giving it fun phrases when it comes online Like we could do the about afraid. I'm afraid I can't do that. Like they did in the news episode by the way I mean if cassie started calling you a David maybe you would be pretty tricky. Yeah call whole lab a whole bunch of date. It's all budget David's program. Cassie to speak with the Voice of Natalie Cole. 'cause that'd be great. That would be awesome and I think a good idea. Just jot that down. If you want to take a quick second this leads nicely into something from hardrock. Hope says Christian. Can you talk about how much of this kind of tech already exists? Do Alexa devices which I'm scared of all talk to each other through a Mesh network so just while we're on the subject of of speakers and things like that and how last season introduced this idea of May being able to manipulate the Mesh network but even beyond that like just this Mesh Network existing. Where wirelessly all? These devices are communicating with one another. Is that pretty legit? Or is it dramatize for Westworld in significantly? I mean honestly. It doesn't look to me any different than what we have right now. It doesn't look like anything to me. The like what you know. The guy is talking to his computer to Speaker and you know it could turn up the again the the flames on on the outside of this. House. I mean that's no different than turning up the lights in your house right like it to me it. Basically I didn't see nothing really much different than contemporary technology. There okay. The only the only difference was that like it had environmental controls to the point where like carbon monoxide or. No was the fire. The fire right that was carbon trading carbon monoxide. Right now but yeah. That's so that's that's quite realistic. Defect that it says. I'm afraid I can't do that. It was a little little on the nose for me for sci-fi reference. But you know I can tolerate it for fifty eight not in space. I see exactly exactly. And so yeah. I can't think of anything that anything. That's particularly scary or interesting. Did I'm really the big one was like these? These sort of like Orgy parties that they're going to like these strange underground art parties that they're going to as a very socially anxious person. I'm I'm sad that these still exist. What would I miss this? Caleb is going. He's got the Rico assignments like this one guy and you gotta come by. Yeah I was. I was thinking about Steve's house at the beginning of the episode for instance the technology. That's all quite real. I mean I mean basically that That that that after that that's no different than like tackle or whatever on US tackle small Nelson you mentioned nest. I mean I've my apartment is loaded up with it. We've GOT THAT FOR SMOKE DETECTORS. We have that controlling our temperature so dolores could come here and bake this apartment very hot very very quickly and that speaks to the need for like emergency overrides. That are not just completely like. Please let me out. Now I can't do that. Did you have some kind of mechanical? Failsafe right That's that's that's important. You don't need to even think about like a malevolent force trying to kill. Kill you in your home. I mean mean software. We try to make as reliable as possible. But we don't want to be completely reliant upon software always working to make sure that we're safe fire hazard alone What would be a good reason to have a way to override the doors mechanically? I'm a physical lacks that you could undo and get out of the house This is from Winston. How's your understanding of hosts and robots strength evolved over the series in other series like blade runner? Terminator robots are able to bend metal frames lift multi objects etc generally. We have not seen many the hosts doing this but could other robots calebs partner. George do these things given that? He is designed for industrial applications. Just their strength depend more on their power source or the composition of the materials that they are made from so. That's a great question so starting with the hosts what's interesting about the host is that they're very clearly some kind of biological material and in in in what seems indistinguishable from human by the biological materials like skin and muscle which is interesting to me because they seem super strong so do they have the same basically muscle materials that that we would have in our bodies maybe they are more aggressive about activating them. We know we have muscle activation that we have or they're superfit. Someone's GonNa teach me that. Yeah that would be useful. I wish I could just activate them like that so I don't be modest you have. Your triceps are ripped if I recall. I was working at the time. I wish released footage of Christian arm-wrestling at on survivor. David versus Goliath and spoiler alert. I handle he lost like junking me like with zero effort whatsoever. I just been doing like tricep tips for like seventeen years in a row. I think the what about five months before I went on the show is when I think about the first phone call that they were interested. I think from that day onward. I was trying to work out just like like the word down on you. Doing tricep dip just like every single scene is just cutting you doing tricep tips. Yeah I mean I. I think that the villa gin gang would do a much. Better job cutting. Legal the limit as you're just doing triceps over and over again exactly triceps or sick talking about muscle activation muscle activation the so. I saw him curiously. Do they have different muscle materials? That allow them to be stronger like like. How strong are they? I mean I think that if I had to guess they are. Basically normal people that that they're able to activate their muscles in more in a more efficient and optimized fashion to to basically be extremely like they go from the extremely fit athletes so they go from being normal people than all of a sudden. It's like they're ninjas you know it feels like which is not crazy now in terms of being stronger the the core question is like what makes something strong and the first part is the actuators actuator. There are a couple things like in humans are actuators our muscles. They're the things that do action on the world can push on things they produce force. We can lift things which is doing work in robot. You often had electric motors or wooded appears with George or whatever model robot. I believe. He's a Delo spilt robot. I believe it is a little Dallas logo on Is probably hydraulic. So I think if you look at one of those construction material. There's cats that will that will construction Vehicle that will pick up dirt in like backhoe that's where boy for a backhoe that's going to be more of a that's GonNa be a hydraulic device in hydraulics are extremely powerful. You'll lot of force out at them. But they take comparatively a good bit of energy to us. They took a good bit of battery power. And that's something. That's I think another thing that's under appreciated about robots is that they are energy hawks the a lot of power to run. So if you have something like George has to handle I guess whole whole day on a construction site and doing lots of heavy lifting and stuff like that clearly. They figured out some way to make hydraulics either. Pretty efficient or a very very very large energy source are very good. At like maybe awesome. Batteries will be my guest in order to be able to make George function so Joseph. Like a nine to five then. He's probably charging up for the rest of that time. My guess would be that. That'd be that'd be the A so. What makes it strong? It's the actuators. George probably hydraulically actuated. The hosts are muscle actuated and the response weaknesses. Two different kinds of actuation. You can get tons of force and power out of out of out of a hydraulic actuator. Electric Motors can be pretty efficient. And in in certain ways they can spin up really fast. They have their own advantages Humans are just very. We are very efficient compared to robots in the satellite. I like to put I point out. That are walking. Robots that walk around there are bipeds like the ones that are human sized and welcome to legs the most efficient one of those takes five times the energy. It takes a person to walk five times while so like if a if a human running on gasoline and they were a hundred miles on a gallon car. A robot will be a twenty mile per gallon car. That's the that's the gap inefficiency so so one big thing that the westworld somehow sweep under the rug are the energy sources of these robots and even the host if the host or muscle power Josh. We're muscle powered what what powers your muscles The pizza the pizza the pizza powers muscles. So does that mean the westwood robots at the eat I know and then what what? What do they do with the food? I you know I hesitate to guess what happens to the food there afterwards but like it's seemingly implied that I would guess that they probably I don't know if they get because mimic the reality right of when when guests come to westworld you see them like pounding shots of of stuff you know so it would make sense that like if you wanted to go off if you went to West rolled and your quest was to just like have a nice date you know with with with a with a robot you take them out for a steak dinner be awkward. The robot wasn't eating steak dinner so insurance being that they're probably just doing that stuff anyway. That's true I haven't seen a scene where like we show. How like the power themselves right now. Like the never see them. Recharging charging port or anything like that But sometime we don't see them on their own eating steak dinner on their own to keep themselves powered up right and so that would be something that frankly would they can build around that That would not be. That would not be crazy. This unladen there were. Were someone visiting the park. Like is giving a tour. Vip robots eat as they need their power like anything else. That's where our food that's where power comes from but it's it's more. I think that it's more like I think. As soon as they get their power and they don't need to worry about where it comes from like. Maybe there's a lot but as far as we can tell the only difference biologically between those host and a person is at the host of a little girl in their brain right and so there are power source in. There is what we're wondering. Yeah I'm wondering if there's a little battery without that'd be crazy if you have like both like awesome super awesome computer and battery in that tiny space. Right presumably could be recharged by food. But that's one thing that A lot not not westworld most sci-fi having to do with robots doesn't really think about like. Are they powering? These things because there isn't really like an elegant glamorous solution to that question. Right that you can easily dramatize it. But you don't even need to Rama ties. It could be a throwaway lines like. Oh Yeah you know. The battery will last blank long so now that now that status in the world and that in some better. Sifi in my opinion will use those details as interesting plot devices. Right Delors has to get from here to there. But look she's only got She got ticking. Which served your battery running out In this case That's so that's that's one thing. I can think about in terms of their actuation potential themselves. I'm guessing the all right Christian. I think people are going to be very thrilled with the. You've grounded are are grounded future in ground nece with with all of your your points this week and anything else that you would like to ground in reality for us from Westworld so I have to reiterate how much overall what I'm thinking about what I see on the show. I mostly like really impressed like like. I'm the clearly put their homework into making things. Feel grounded and there's one thing actually like I was. I went back and rewatch some season. Two and was reminding so I was reminded by some other stuff that was. Like shockingly Kinda real to me even like sort of the speculative Sifi so at the end of last season Josh. I remember when I was in some kind of simulation world right. I remember yes. And she's reading the books of all the people right by the that they decoded the host turned the corner of the guests right right or decoding the guest and in the big takeaway that I believe that the Delo son or whatever it was talking about the you know that he was saying indunas monologue about what they were doing is that they found out that you know people you know. Humans are quite simple or whatever you know like. We thought that we weren't. We weren't complicated enough but in fact we were. We thought they were. We thought they are more complicated in the actually. The key was that simplicity. And they're like ten thousand lines of code the simple algorithm that we that we were now. That's of course. All speculative fiction because mapping human brain mapping behavior and how people behave really complicated ongoing science but it actually had interesting parallels to other things that happened in the past so You might remember something. Called the Human Genome Project. Of course you so something from the nineties. I think wrapped up in the early. Two thousands mapping out all human genes. Because THEY WANNA see how complex the human genome wise. And we kind of assume that you know that you know. We're really complicated. Look all the complicated stuff in our bodies. All the ways that we work we have hundreds of thousands of genes that encode all these things and we went and mapped the human genome and turns out about twenty thousand. Twenty thousand a lot simpler than we assumed because my understanding of it again. I'm not an expert in. I'm not. I'm not a genetics expert. Reading this is my understanding of it. What we should get my dad on the on the podcast. The great geneticist like a winkler. But I feel like he would say something very insensitive about the show and I don't WanNa put I I can't get my father cancelled the year. Two Thousand Twenty questions for him. Just let me know. We'll we'll we'll throughout the genetics feedback to Dr Winkler in the podcast awesome. I love to hear his take on the on. The history of this cards call do a conference call. Yeah that's good offline the idea would be that That we kind of fundamentally like wrong view on some level of what? Dna Did we saw that the DNA isn't like a big of a blueprint of how were put together as people when it just builds blueprint is really kind of a series of instructions a simple algorithm if you will for how to for how to build proteins. Yeah so it again. I'm not an expert. So I apologize to anybody. Microbiologist that's not listening or not so the point wise that we kind of missed on we we we had the correct or understanding that like DNA was kind of like an algorithm is building stuff and not laying out our entire bodies so like being much simpler than we expected so the idea of people in our in our very complicated brains and we have a super complicated brain really. We can be boiled down to about ten thousand lines of code very interesting. And it's very interesting. Provocative way to to build a little bit of speculative science fiction. So I love that I for the perspectives of the perspective of the show would posit that as like an a- deliberately cynical view of humankind that maps onto the deliberately cynical view of human kind seen throughout the rest of the show but but to me the existence of the Aaron Paul Characters. This season suggests A. He'll turn that argument that they are going to slowly tried to build the case for baby baby. Humans as a species are dangerous and overall bad but they're individuals who are who are capable of goodness. They're individuals who have their strengths. Who are who are filled with value. How do you? How do you map that idea of them like arguing for like the simplicity of the human mind even just a few simple lines of code onto what seems to be a turning of the argument that that's not necessarily the worst thing in the world? That's exactly how I wouldn't Terp it. What you're what you're building up to. Their which is even if we could be simplified down to ten thousand lines of code it looks something even the even if the mechanisms by which we operate our simple that doesn't make our world any less complex and interesting when we're interacting with each other. That doesn't make us any less valuable just because were simpler and if that's the way the show is building. I think how I would actually kind of agree with that message. In that that that the world can be simple our existence can be comparatively simple but no less fulfilling or interesting or or meritorious beautiful. Yeah Oh my Gosh Christian anything else from West Road You WanNa talk about before I make you talk to me about survivor for ten minutes. Unless Jeff probst and I'm Chris and I am going to be. I'm not coming down from the perch until you talk to me about survivor as I want you to so I just leave the thread dangling too much. It did detangle a little bit. Medieval Music History. And unbidden that also. So yeah so like I medieval music history Wanda off coming anytime soon. I'm sure it'd be extremely popular winner for short the end. I mean like I just came back to me because in college I minored in music and so one of the courses I had to take Decided to take was evil music history. What's your what's your instrument clarinet. Okay so so so I yeah. So and and An took video music history. That's like a chance and I remember one thing I have to do would i? Is You have listening exams in in music history classes music history class a problem with taking a a listening exam where where you are given a repertoire to listen to take home like on a CD of time they weren't on a C. Bread and And you go into class at day and you listen to a small clip of it Of of the music and you have identify it so I so when I am looking up the the Parsley dominate. And he came up that. Oh and say you know I? It's basically a chance. It's kind of Gregorian chant medieval music as well. Okay I'll look up the lyrics for it and it's like two lines law yes like okay. Oh God spare us. Please don't be too mad at us. Like the two lines of the of thing and it's an entire four five minute song fits very neatly with what you're thematically interested in with the what what the show might be medically all actually. It's a good point so I was like really Howard. Two words to Chew Chew Sentences. Be Five minutes hawks. Well IN LOUISVILLE. History learned that actually. That's quite verbose. I remember there were for the music. Listen for listening exam there were. There were lots of songs too which sounded very similar. One was Pronouncing just one word. It was Ali Luhya for six minutes and the other one was very similar word and the way those songs go is Ali. Louis you the first six five and a half minutes is And then lay Luhyas last thirty seconds. When's off all over all over the place? Right and there was one song had And the only difference between that and the other song is the other the other song pronounce the syllable off and I remember. I spent a whole night listening to those two songs over and over and over again trying to distinguish between the and the aw six minutes into the point where I every single little inflection of the song so it identified on the exam. So I'm like not so so seeing all the Gregorian chant back in my life I was like. Oh that takes me back back to my days. Were the memorize these old Gregorian chance so that was fun? The Gregorian Chant Wanda writes itself. Then because it's just six minutes of Wa thirty seconds of Shirk that's exactly that would fit right in into medieval time period. Exactly so that that was my. That's my my my matching with medieval music. Right all right That's going to do it on West road talk here so if that's all you're here for we're going to wrap it right there. We'll be back on Monday. Morning with recap between myself and Joe Garfield talking about episode to Christian any predictions for episode to anything that you're excited about. Seeing more of the world that is I can only say it is not called Nazi world. But I'm sure you're interested in finding out more. I hear it's called war world. That's the room were rumors world. We'RE OKAY. It's rumor that news the word on the street yet here. I am good track record of predicting them. I remember emily and I predicted shogun world and the Rosh. I was very proud of the Rosh that we asked you. We're I I was trying to like Ryan World but the problem is not so. I'm most curious to find out what the name of that world is. Because I was because I couldn't find a good one because it's like well Ryan World but not in Germany France probably in like towards vichy France so BBC World Vichy worlds. Very strange sounding. So I don't know what's going to be okay all right. We'll find soon enough. Joe And I will be talking about westworld season three episode to come your way Monday morning. Christian. Thank you for all of the great insight into insight and everything beyond that and now if you all want to bail feel free to bail otherwise. I assume winters at were rooting for your boy. Nick course course gotta root for him so so I hope. Hopefully he he. He have to root for Nick but heading into winners at war who are some of the legends that you were back on the show. Honestly I love to see you all. I Love C. O. Back he's you know he'd be a person that I would love to. Just sit down and talk to over coffee or something like that. It is take on things. And he each kind of silent assassin. So will That's how I remember him so I hope hopefully you can see that party. You'll like throughout the whole rest of the season and I I cannot love how funny Tyson is. He seems like fun guy. So yeah. There's there's there's a couple of people interested All right we will be back with more westworld coverage next week Christian working working. The people find you on Internet's so if you're looking for me and you can find me on on twitter and instagram mostly twitter at at Sea Hubadoo at C. H. U. B. I. C. K. IR Kubicki. Which is. That's how I to younger brother. Now what's going on twitter and if you find out more about what I do look me up on Christian Vicky DOT com. Did you see star? Wars the rise of skywalker. Speaking of wikipedia. I did our meal. Want me to put you on the spotlight. This divisive topic. It isn't the topic and things to worry about now so you. You can't just let a an opinion of star. Wars rise of skywalker exist without slings and arrows. Then I understand that. It's it's funny on twitter. The twitter algorithms like they have the twitter topics They changed over from previous stuff. It it's all I get my twitter topic stuff are like hot takes about star wars so I see that that's all even though I wanna get like Arana Virus News Ryan they abandoned. It's like it's really interesting to see how they how much they crammed into one movie that he tried to finish a lot of stuff to introduce our things and finish a lot of things in one movie and that that's tricky to do so. We'll see we'll see I haven't seen the mantle Laurean I hear good things out to watch the mandatory although Lawrence Superfund Okay. I'll try to spring for Disney plus some sports bringing for. It's it's a really good show. Really really superfund have you. Have you heard anything about it? I know baby because because I exist on planet earth I know baby baby yoga so I mean like the overall my my take on popular media. I mean I can like just about anything I tend to give a lot of credit to shows that are more like at least have some ambition to them like it's like a a show that has some ambition that make quite may falter on the execution bit. We'll have my. We'll have my more than a show. That's Kinda like trying to play it safe. Sure so like. So what's will for instance taking all these kind of like talking about spree hetty topics like are we living simulations where the things you know. I I can forgive minor flaws in the show. That's if it goes through that sort of thing swinging for the fences swinging for the fences. I always give credit in my classes to like if if students we as a final project with a swinging for the fences but doesn't quite work out. I give them credit so So Amanda Laurie and the idea of kind of following around this one bounty hunter seems like a neat and small scale story that could get behind him in the Big Fast Star Wars Universe that sound. That sounds fun. If the kind of a star wars e glossed up a big budget looking version of like Hercules and Xena like he kind of has that spirit of like like adventure of the week to a certain degree at a certain point and that is not an insult you know. This is coming from somebody who loved that shit growing up. That's awesome. That's awesome. I mean and and an like if you if you want to know like what like really tickles me like what show. I really just like gets me. I Love Better Call Saul. Oh Wow okay cool. I Love Better Call Saul. You talked about it. I talk about ambition in story telling I the fact that they'll make a riveting scene where I'm on. The edge of my seat is about like renewing malpractice. Insurance right is like aw gotta I love it in like I don't want to spoil. What's happening was recent episode. That came on but like there's a scene with one character and that character's boss which was really tense for me at Just one boss look saying. Hey I think you'd buy something improper here and And in the employee being like I don't know what you're talking about and like I was like almost in hives like an hour later so I was texting. No No. It's like the fact that they managed to put that much emotional investment and into into what would otherwise be a really dry plotline. I really admire Christian. We do better call Saul podcasts. Here on post show recaps This is your official invitation to join us after the season ends so we can do a look back on season five and a look ahead towards the final season of better call Saul. Oh hit me up Josh Amazing Okay? That's a great tease Christian. Hopefully we'll have you back on for some more westworld chatter throughout the season to that sounds fun as well so anyway thank you. Thank you all for listening. I appreciate it. I hope people. Hopefully you learn something. I hope I tell you something you didn't already know. Nobody knew the thing about the Gregorian chants everything else. I think we had on on lockdown on lockdown. Okay yes I think I figured as much Chris just a pleasure to get to talk to you again in this capacity. I've been very honored to have you as a friend of my life for the last little while but the fact that it's taken this long to get on a microphone together is ridiculous and silly. I'm glad we managed to break this Cold Street Adelaide just in and really reconnects over microphone. Yes all right and maybe some day. I'll release the snyder cut. A I went out which includes us arm wrestling. I still have some. You got released. Unreleased decided like I can't I? It's too mortifying I've literally lost every single person single human being. You're mortified he like you have. I don't know how long that interview was In reality but like I was on lockdown for days without the ability to talk so I can't imagine everything that I said to you during that period of time my God longest interview of the session of the U. exceeded an hour. I believe eating but but in in your defense it also started pouring rain in the middle of our interview to the point. Where like I had to completely like panicked Louis Reset my my whole set because Speaking of the destruction of technology is raining from high above. We had to scramble with you as my my suddenly. You're both like my assistant producer and my interview subject as we scrambled to like stuff. The microphone underneath the infamous table. We were going the pictures of everybody you and I were both holding an umbrella together. There was nobody in that moment though that I would have preferred to be in such strange conditions with a real trooper. It's really actually no surprise that you were able to sneak me a secret message given the panic that I was feeling in that moment. Yeah I had all the advantages in that moment. Though that that was that was that was certainly very memorable and And I'm I'm glad we got to share that time. I was looking forward to that interview. That entire pre-game uh season. I one thing I will say to the survivor. Fans at this point like It might not have known like so. You gave a puzzle to all of us to get a puzzle which she no one figured out the puzzle so I gave everybody a minute to. It was a four piece puzzle and you had to assemble these pieces into capital. Not and it was. It was carved out by my father-in-law the Great Dave Fox and with a minute on the clock. No one was able to figure it out. Yeah it was an. I'll tell you that really got my head Josh yet in the pre game and I remember I actually wrote in my like notebook I talked to you like basically the day or so before. We actually were marooned on the island and I was like. Oh no if. I'm no good in Puzzles. I to be useless to the tribe and I am sunk and so two days later in this puzzle. Come on I'm like I probably. I probably wildly we overcompensating for the puzzle. You gave me anyway you overcompensated but you did a great job. You made a long run so I don't feel like I got killed out there. No I'd like to think superpowers what I like to think. That's that seems fair. Takes Credit for all of your success. Go Right Ahead Josh. I'm going to go right ahead and do that. All right. We're GONNA go right ahead and call it on the podcast here. Thank you everybody for listening. We'll be back with everything's going on pusher recaps West Road Better Call Saul the lost podcast. Curb your enthusiasm. Almost over star. Trek Picard podcasts. Are you watching Star Trek Picard? I am not watching Star Trek. The Car Jessica lease who is co hosting with Mike Bloom. Her hot take is that it's the best star trek that has ever been. That is a hot hot. Take Indeed S. so maybe a trekkie. She loves the show. She loves the franchise. So it's not like I. This is my first instance with Star. Trek. And I'm saying this is the best so maybe bump it up on your queue here. Reicher makes pizza wearing a very. That's real haven't gotten that far but he did try cooking in Nexgen at one point. I I remember people liking it. So hopefully. He's he's gotten better in the intervening in time right. He's got a couple of decades. Cms aright Chris. We could talk forever. Let's just call it here. Great Times thanks coming on this. Superfund BYE bye.

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How Music Can Make You Better

Inquiring Minds

52:04 min | 2 years ago

How Music Can Make You Better

"Enquiring minds is supported by pitchfork economics with Nick hanauer, a weekly podcast that explorers. Why rising income inequality will lead to pitchforks? And what we can do about it every week Hanoi is joined by some of the world's most original economic thinkers in a convention busting exploration of who gets what. And why in the American economy if you wanna learn how to make the economy work for all Americans subscribed to pitchfork economics at pitchfork economics dot com, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Monday, April fifteenth twenty nine thousand nine and you're listening to enquiring minds. I'm engrave his guts, and I'm ca- short. Hurry each week. We bring you a new in depth exploration of the space where science politics society. Collide, we never it. If I know what's true what's left to discover in Wyoming. You can find us online at incurring dot show on Twitter at inquiring show and on Facebook. You can also get an ad free version of the show by supporting us at patriot dot com slash inquiring nines, and you can subscribe to the show on itunes or any other podcasting. You can't touch music. It exists only at the moment is being apprehended, and yet it can profoundly alter how we view the world in our place in it. I I wish I had the brilliance to have written that statement. But it it's a quote from David Byrne on in his book, how music works, and it it sets forth. This incredible vision for what news IQ is an music. That is a passion of this week's guest who happens to be our own Indre vist contests. But definitely feels weird to be on the other side of the microphone so to speak. It why did you start your book? And we're going to get into the details in the interview with that, quote like what did that quote encapsulate for you? Yes. Oh burns book. How music works was really influential for me, you know, for a long time. I really kept my scientific and musical lives. Very separate. I mean for like, you know, almost two decades and people who knew me as a scientist really didn't know me as a musician and vice versa. And part of that was because I worried that if I took too much of a scientific lens to my life as a performer that it would kind of steal away the magic. And you know, I've I've read the Richard Feynman quote about how signs just enhances the beauty of the flower. I know by looking at it by adding all these extra layers, but there is just a part of me that kind of felt like trying to dissect performance just kind of would make it seem to mundane to be as sort of enjoyable as it was for me. Me. So it wasn't until I started reading David Burns book. I actually collaborated with Oliver sacks on his book musical feely ah just a small section of it. But you know, kind of having conversations with him about music that I started to think about music as it from a different perspective. So instead of trying to think about how science can help us understand music. I actually wondered whether music can help us understand neuro science or psychology in particular, like if we could use what we learn as musicians, and as passionate lovers of music to get a better handle of who we are as people that seemed a worthwhile way to explore the topic for me, and that's a big topic that we're going to get into. But I have to ask I think, you know, fans of this podcast fans of your other podcasts. Cadence know that you are a huge music lover. It is a powerful force in your life. A where did that where does that all come from been a is it a lifelong coming out of the crew? You're sing singing all day long. You haven't heard about that is definitely for better for worse. It's like there have been times in my life. When I felt that I would be much more successful in a lot of ways. If I didn't have this passion for music, which is kind of sacrilegious to say, but but you know, my mom was a musician. She was a coral. She still is a coral conductor. And so, you know, I remember. So my earliest memories of are literally have like playing underneath the piano while she had rehearsals in our homes. So we, you know, she had this big beautiful baby grand piano, and she still has to stay. And and you know, that was just a centerpiece of our home. But I was never very good at music like she she she asked me to audition for the best choir in Toronto casinos, children of immigrants only gonna be the best. Right. So I did for the Toronto children's chorus and I did not get in. Like, you're like five, and they're already telling you that. You don't have the towel. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty devastating because you know, I thought like, oh, of course, I'm going to get in like no one else in my elementary school or kindergarten has as much exposure to music as I do is certainly been singing ever since. I was I can remember. But I didn't I didn't. I didn't even I got into like the feeder choir kind of like kind of this is like the really backbench of the backbench. And I was like, well, that's not very fun. So I ended up auditioning for the kind of rival chorus across town called the Canadian children's opera chorus, and you know, the difference between the TC C on the CCC was at the TC series. Very like disciplined kids. Perfect intonation, you know, excellent musicians, and the CCC is a bunch of Rugrats who like ran around on stage, but we got to be in the operas of the Canadian opera company, and that was a much better fit for me. So you know, so that was like. Listeners don't know this, but you are kind of a rebellious spirit like for as complex as you are. I kind of know exactly what you mean by the by that other choir being a better fit. Just one other question before we get to the interview why why this book now, why a book entitled how music can make you better. Why kind of combine these two now I mean, this is a urine a really different stage or you're teaching music. You're teaching science. Now it seemingly is there. Something about this moment. The really struck you as I it's important to blend these two areas together of your life. Yeah. I mean, I can tell you the practical reason the popular reason was that. I started this podcast. Cadence what music tells us about the mind as a way of exploring how music can help us understand our own psychology. And I was luckily enough to have one of the listeners be one of the editors at chronicle books is the publisher of the book, and they were looking for someone to fill out this series are calling the house series. So the first book was called how art can make you happy. This was the second book the third book coming out simultaneously is about poetry amend. There's a fourth book in the works and that will be the series and the idea was to take aspects of. Of the fine arts that people sometimes find intimidating and classicist and elitist and not very accessible and to wait or describing music or science. In this case music in particular, classical music, right? So, you know, and in the in the case of art, you know, the book really came out of this this the notion that sometimes going to modern art galleries can be really off putting for people. You know, you don't like you look at, you know, the the art piece and you're like, oh, I'm not sure I get it. Right. Whereas if you look at a painting by Van Gogh whore, or, you know, a Monet like it's easier to see what's pleasing about it, even if you don't understand like the full history of the impressionist period or post impressionism, or what have you? But, but you know, to to really appreciate modern art a lot of the time is you really have to know about the context. And so that can be off putting and so so Bridget Watson Payne who wrote the first book was really trying to kind of go against that. And show people that there are ways in which you can incorporate art in your life that makes you happy so simple simple concept. So how it can make you better have came out of that was this sort of? You know, it's a nod to the Mozart effect, which we'll talk about I'm sure in a minute. But, but this kind of this kind of DEA that you know, music isn't just something that has to be hard or or kind of just in the left to the professionals that it's something that you know, we can all participate end and that we can all benefit from. But the sort of the personal sort of side of of why this book now isn't perp because you know, there have been books. Great books by Dan Levitin by Oliver sacks written about sort of the brain basis of music. There are a lot of other authors yawn pegs up, and and so forth who have tackled this topic. And there have been books by you know, people sort of talking about Musicology, and and music, and in my opinion. There wasn't really a book that kind of bridged both worlds that kind of was both music appreciation and enough sort of scientific background to give people some meat on sort of what's happening in the brain when we're affected by music, and and I should say it's a short book. So it's only fifteen thousand words, but it has a lot of references. Like a third of the book is is in the reference section. So the idea is to kind of get you interested in some of these topics, and then, you know, if you wanna explore them further, you know, there's a big bibliography to choose from. But this a great science book is a really really long bibliography. Yeah. Yeah. So I appreciate that cinnamon a lot that music is for everyone and that science can help make that music experience even better in vous contests. Welcome. Enquiring minds. It's so nice to be here. Because sure. Yeah. First time long time, right? Yeah. So I consider myself a music lead. I I I would never describe myself as a music person, and one of the things you do early in the book is tried to essentially disavows myself of that of that notion that we're all music people that that music is a human endeavour. Yeah. Like what what makes you think that you're not into music or that? It's not something that is your thing. I guess a couple of days like I don't consider myself as somebody that can that can hold a tune. Let's just say and even though I played an instrument growing up. I wasn't particularly adept at it. So there's something about like a little bit of of skill that, I that I can't really saying and that can't really play an instrument that well, but moreover, they feel like my musical tastes have not evolved in recent time. I listened to the same stuff they listen to as a teenager. So there's two different things. Yeah. Although they're very typical on their. They're one of the things that I try to overturn in the book or. At least explain and, you know, the first one is one that I think, you know, David Byrne described as a modern tragedy this idea that if you're not a perfect player, if you're not a truly skilled performer that somehow music is not for you and for so much of human civilization that simply was not the case music was just like speaking and reading, but we don't talk about like how good we are reading or how good we are speaking like if you're not an order, you're still gonna use language to communicate for the most part, right? Even if you're not, you know, Barack Obama. So I think that that's kind of sad that we've kind of come into this culture now where yes, we have access to all these amazing musicians at our fingertips with Spotify subscription. And so why should I try to make music when I can access all these these great performances and the answer is because that's the point of music is to communicate into express yourself. And it feels good. One of the things I'd like to talk about something actually learned on the ear hustle podcast, which is that playing music in prisons is one of the greatest privileges that a prisoner can earn play music like literally rocking out. And I think that even if you don't have a background in music. There's something really cathartic about the ability to make music, and it doesn't take a lot of instruction. I mean, you know, with just a few, you know, just a few minutes, you can you can start to to make meaningful music right away. The problem is is that we set this bar really high and the way that we teach music is often misguided. I mean, we try to teach to perfection we start with scales. And these things are boring like no child has like, you know, jumped out of bed and said, I want to be a musician. So that I can play scales. Right. So, you know, if some some students understand that you need to you know, develop. Gills and playing scales. Doing these exercises will get you to where you want to be. But that's not a direct path for a lot of people. And yet, I think that I think that's why the guitar is so popular 'cause like, you know, with a few cores, you can start cool. It's well as cool. I think because it's very accessible, you know. It's like, you know, that's why so many pop singers guitar. It's like, it seems like we've we've we've shown people that you don't need to be a virtuosic guitar player. I mean, if the only guitar we were exposed to were, you know, Sergio Assad or like people who are extremely good at playing guitar. You know, we none of us would pick it up because it'd be like that sounds impossible to do. It's kind of amazing the parallels. You're describing music training with science training too. Because like if we just flip those words, I think we'd be having a a a discussion that still would make sense to a lot of people and beyond that like the sense that you don't have to be a musician to make music. You don't have. To be a scientist to do science like those are universities, and one of the things I I sort of love about that universal theme that you kinda get into towards the end of the book is there is an open debate around. What came first language or music, and I love like the thought experiment, and that's not something. I think we can solve right. Yeah. I mean, I'm not even sure that that that question. I mean, I I don't know what answering that question will ultimately tell us, you know, what I mean. So you know, I like to think of what it would it. There's like a third possibility, which is that music is a tool like fire, right? Like if it wasn't for fire. We would not have been able to have these big brains that are so metabolic Lee costly because we could not cook our food and get enough protein. We'd be we'd be, you know, be grazing raw vegetables like the gorillas are and therefore, you know, have smaller than average brains for our primate body size because we simply can't fuel it. Right. That's difference between gorilla in a human. Impart. And and so, you know, you can think of music as a tool like fire. But this particular tool helps us understand each other. It helps us create bonds and helps us work together. It essentially is a form of communication that is very deep that taps into, you know, our non verbal ways of exchanging ideas. And so that's very powerful. And that's why I think that you know that this idea of that. It's just you know, it's it's it's a it's an evolutionary artifact or as opposed to a fundamental part of who we are as human beings is probably misguided. Because again, it depends on how you define music. But certainly if you think about how it is you talk to a baby the baby responds to prosperity. I tried the emotional melody of the utterances that you're that you're giving not to the semantic content. And even though we have parts of our brain that are essentially sort of ready to accept and learn language, we have. Parts of our brain. That are ready end except learning music right from the beginning as well. So, you know, I think that that these these things are tied together. And and you know, as you as you say like, I think that it was just sort of how we approached music. And and what what we think it is that sort of turn some people off and makes them feel as if they're just not good enough. Just like, you know, a person who did not know who had trouble memorizing all the biology. You know in eleventh grade considers himself, not a scientist. You know, what I mean because they're like, well, you know, it was hard for me or it's hard to understand the chemical structure something or I failed chemistry in grade. Ten and therefore, I'm not a good scientists, and those are not the skills that are required to be a scientist for one thing to do science. And and it's the same thing with music. I mean, there are people who just aren't good technical players who are really great musicians. And and so I think that that's kind of you know, if if you have something to say, and you have a deep understanding of of sort of your own humanity than you in some ways are already a musician. You just haven't figured out which outlet to to let it go on. So you mentioned the brain a couple times in that answer, and I wanna start there because you you put forth something that we've all heard like the tree falls in the woods analogy. And you have answered the question with finality now. So if a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it. Does it make sounded Ray? Nope. Why not? So why? Well, it changes the the air compressions. Right. So it creates its creates a change in the pressure of air that permeates out from where it fell, but if you can imagine another kind of animal that takes those air pressure chain. Ages and turns it into a visual signal. Right. Where all of a sudden, they can see air pressure changes. Then you would say that that person sees the tree fall right in terms of of of sort of sound. But so so if we hear the tree fall, it's because our inner ear are cook Leah has turned that air pressure change into a membrane potential change. And that our brains have then assigned that a kind of a meaning or value, and so are auditory cortex higher areas of our brain give us the conscious perceptual experience of hearing hearing sound. So so that is the sound is not in you know, they the wave it's in how your brain interprets the wave because again, if you have a person who is hard of hearing, for example in his wearing a coke Lear implant, they will hear that same sound differently than you. And I will. Although the cook clear implants are getting very good. These days. They will still have a different perception. And we're just like a person that's young like a baby they're going to very different experiences. Somebody that's that's older or or even has a brain. That doesn't sorta that is going through like dementia or changes in that way. Yeah. Or even just hearing loss, right? I mean, you can say that then they won't here. But yes, anyone who who's going to these changes, or if you're a musician, and you're trained to listen to things, and let's say, especially that your musical instrument. Let's say you're a percussionist and your musical instrument. Sounds a lot like a tree falling. You will hear that tree falling differently? You will you will pick up on different aspects of that sound wave because after all your brain doesn't take a sound wave and turn it into something, you know, kind of permanent. It's affected by your experience. That's why you know, people who are born in in a very noisy environment where they have to out a lot of irrelevant noise. They tend tend to find it difficult to distinguish speech. Sounds in. In a noisy environment later on in life. So it's called the, you know, the the signal to noise ratio. They have they have trouble hearing speech say in a in a Norton a busy restaurant, but a person who is a musician actually, not only can hear better in that under those conditions, but also, for example, can more accurately name the emotion in a baby's cry. So you you can play, you know, you can you can as the observer know, why the baby is crying, right? Like, it's hungry or it's upset or just fell down in bumped his head. And if you then take those sound waves and you play them to musicians musicians are better at figuring out. Why that baby is crying than non musicians because their brains are more attuned to parsing meaning out of that sound. So it's very much to me to me. It's it's an it's pardon the pun a no brainer that if there is no brain there is no sound. So. So you you sold me that music is subjective. And and that it is in our brain. Then it must have impacts that we can measure in our brain like I'm addicted to certain kinds of music like I grew up on on metal. So I still like heavy metal. Now, why do we see music as addictive and do we have proof that it is actually addictive? Yeah. So I mean, again, it depends on your definition of addiction. And some people will take take, you know, issue with that because addiction suggests that you develop a tolerance and the we're not talking about. Okay. Not going there. Okay. But it what it means that you want more of it. Right. When you hear it. And that it also that it stimulates the reward system in your brain. So in your brain, you have a series of of networks that sort of look at look at the environment, and and sort of assign value to stimuli, according to how. Rewarding. They are and they can be rewarding because they lead to reproduction it can be rewarding because they satisfy a drive like hunger. Thirst. What have you write an so drugs addictive drugs in particular drive the system, so if you think about like, you know, when you take cocaine if you take cocaine, you know, it boosts the amount of sort of signal sent in this region the amount of neurotransmitter in these regions by like three hundred percent. So we also see an increase not quite as a steep has taken cocaine when you listen to music that you like we see these brain regions activated. We also see that you will make decisions on the basis of how activated these regions are. So for example, if you if someone plays you a piece of music that really shows a strong activation of your reward pathway. You're actually willing to pay more to buy that particular piece of music than if you're played something that really doesn't activate your reward pathway that totally makes intuitive sense. Right. It seems that we like it. And you know, people report. That they that they like it more. We could ask them like do you like this piece of music, and yes, and that that also maps onto how much of their reward system is activated. This week's episode is brought to you by Magellan TV Magellan TV is a new type of documentary. Streaming provider determined to bring you the finest documentaries from around the globe. 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And now obtaining an Ivy league college education is their next milestone. GS students possess real world experience and that experience with research backed support programs that inspires a greater desire for academic success along the journey to earning prestigious Columbia University degree, you were born to explore your passion and potential. This is where you were always meant to be to discover how you can continue your story. Visit G S dot Columbia dot EDU slash podcast fall regular decision. Application deadline is June. First so apply today. If we can identify these pathways where we're seeing sort of some binding to receptors that suggest like some some rewards from addiction systems is they're kind of like a a universality to this. Like is this generalize -able across humans to the point where we can see music that is more quote unquote addictive than others. Yeah. So that's a really interesting question. So there as I mentioned at the top there is a lot of subjectivity to music because as you learned the music that you kind of found especially in your teenage years in your early twenties is very influential matter how old you are. And that note, it's just the best. It's just it's just empirically the best objectively, it's just the best thing. It's like, yeah. I mean, the irony is, of course, that you can even later on in your life recognized that it's actually not the best. And as you mentioned your side. It's sort of like, well, I'm. Kind of embarrassed about my musical tastes, like, you know, why are you embarrassed by them if it's the best right? And the reason is that we again, we have this kind of more sophisticated knowledge of what is great music. What we think great music is. But ultimately, you know, we can we still enjoy the music of that period of our lives, even if we can objectively say, actually, it's not that great. It's repetitive. It's not that complex. It's not that interesting. But boy like it just makes me happy. When I hear it in a one of the re talk a lot of reasons for that. But but part of that is because you know, at the time in which you were experiencing that music. You are probably forming bonds with new friends with new people you were fun. You're figuring out who you are in separating yourself from your parents. So that's why we see a lot of friction that happens between parental musical choices on the choices that they're, you know, teenage children ultimately gravitate towards, you know, they're they're trying to separate themselves from from their tribe. And that's so you know, you can argue that that's a. Evolutionary, very adaptive. Because now you wanna go away from your tried. So that or from your immediate genetic relatives? So that you can mate with genetically dissimilar people, and and create a, you know, a human being that has more genetic diversity. But anyway, I say that in part because you know, even Darwin's adjusted that music really is an aphrodisiac that is part of sexual selection. But so there's that that component to it. So so what is rewarding about it? Ultimately will depend on sort of. You know, is it is it hitting that sort of sweet spot for you. But if you want it, and so, you know, what what you found great in those time periods, you know, or what you were exposed to. We'll have a big impact on how you like music in the future. But if you asked like what are some of the general principles that make some music better than others? You know, James Taylor is said that you know music is just a huge release of tension. So the more you can build up tension in the musical piece. And then. Release it the war rewarding. It seems to be. In fact, we can see in the brain the parts of your reward pathway that track desire that track wanting are more activated in the interpretation phase of a musical piece. And then when you get to the climax where you know, some people even experience a physiological response called chills, get goosebumps and so forth. You know, that is where we see a boost in the nucleus accumbens in terms of how much you know, dove. Mean it has which we think of as the liking part of the reward pathway that is the part that you know, if you if you insert an electrode into the nucleus accumbens of a rat. And then teach the rat to press a lever to get stimulation in that area that rat will do nothing more than press that lever like it, it it will run over an electrified grid to push that lever, which it won't do by the way, if it starving, and there's food on the other side of that grid. So it's a very, you know, that's a really rewarding area. So so that's kind of what we see, you know, it's actually one of the ways in which the science of music affected, my own work as a performer like, you know, my my singing teacher used to always say things, like don't it's not the high note, that's important. It's like all the nose leading up to the high note in my head of be like, I can't be true. I mean, if you mess up the high note like forget about it now. I was gonna come here you again, the high note is is the, you know, the money note, but what she was trying to get at is the fact that you know, if you don't set up the Heino properly, people don't anticipate it, they don't expect it. It's not as rewarding you need to give people you need to set up that desire that need for the release of tension. And then, you know, once you actually do release the tension that is much more rewarding. I mean, you're describing basically like every action movie score like the avengers. Does this super well of like using move a music to drive the tension of a moment until there's some incredible climactic moment in one of the things that I thought it was just utterly fascinating. As you sort of make the suggestion that if we if we just created algorithm, some sort of AI, there was going to make a music score that just sort of follows that in this road pattern that just makes a music, according to what works it. It doesn't. Quite tap into it the way that human musicians, do and you kinda us some examples. Oh surprise about. Like, you tap into a hip hop as a way of of how they play with our sense of time in our sense of tension. That a computer never could talk about hip hop in. What is happening in our brain. When we listened to it. This was like I just wanna say to the listeners. This super weird for me when I started thinking about hip hop as as like a music that was driving that was using it centrally music theory behind it. Yeah. I mean, again, it's like what people don't think of it all, you know, as as sort of like a high form of music, although anybody who's really into hip hop. We'll understand how complex that means. Like really is. And how difficult it is to perform it. Well. It's incredibly incredibly difficult incredibly technically challenging, but you know, I just want to get to back. This question of like, you know, the algorithm in the computer, and the truth is is that it's it's when we think that a computer is composing music that we don't find the music as you know, we we actually listened to it differently. Once again, the tree falling in the forest, but like, for example, people who are played excerpts that were composed by computer, and they were told that it was composed by a human being will report liking, the expert more than if they're told it is composed by computer, and what we see in their brains is that when they think it's being composed by human. They're sort of theory of mind regions tend to activate more compared to when they think it's just a computer. So we'd listened differently. If we think that there is intention behind the music, and I think that against beaks to the fact that music really is a way of communicating ideas and emotions non verbally that our brains. Just you know, we pay attention to the stimulus. Differently. If if with no it's coming from a human being we're really interested in other humans. But this question of hip hop. I think is a really interesting one. Because when I ask people like, you know, what kind of music do you like you often hear I like all kinds of music, accept and insert John Ray here. Sometimes it's opera, which makes me sad. Sometimes it's rap. Sometimes it's hip hop. Sometimes it's heavy metal. You know, you don't generally hear people say, well, I don't like folk music country music, sometimes could come up there too. But but in any case part of the reason, I think that that hip hop can have a bad reputation. Is that people don't really understand where it came from? And what to listen for. And if you think about hip hop as coming out of this culture, particularly of inner cities, like, you know, inner cities in inner parts of Manhattan where you know, people who are disenfranchised really had nowhere to go. And so they set up a dance parties in the streets, and as a result as of how they started, you know, they started beat boxing, and they sort of taking like, you know, they wanted to make people's that have dance longer and longer and longer, and so they would take this sort of these these these parts of dance pieces, and like kind of put them together in ways that were clever and clever, and then they would on top of that use spoken word to express themselves. And so. If you think about like, the kind of clever ways in which speech is used to beat. Then you start to understand both rap and hip hop. And how you know what people are doing. There is really expressing themselves in in a very kind of. Interesting in clever way. And but then you then you add onto the layer of that the sort of hip, hop wars of the east coast and west coast and the east coast west coast beefs now. Yeah. Right. And so, and when you think about it like you've got this like real tribalism that happens. A Cording to these coasts. And that is translated into sound that ultimately leads to, you know, murder. Right. I mean, this is like no joke, and in some ways like you could argue that if it wasn't for the music industry and the way that the music industry was playing into the lives of so many people, you know, there would not have been these rivalries that ultimately led to the deaths of some of the most famous musicians in their circles. I wanna talk about something that's happening in my experience right now, I went to see a movie the other day, and they played the song eye of the tiger in the middle of it. And it is completely stuck in my head. And it will not leave. We all know the experience of an earworm. I bet you people can hear I have the tiger in their head right now. Just me saying the name of the song. Why are we so a disposed to this idea of an earworm of a song just getting stuck in our in our heads that it's just cycling through our memory constantly? Well, I will tell you what what so far has been the cruelest moment of my book tour, and that was an interview I did with an NPR program called on point and introduce the concept of ear worms. They played a clip of baby shark. Oh, no. That's the worst one. I know. So anyway, so what what are your words really interesting, essentially, they are held a nation's that, you know, or involuntary musical imagery that essentially just get stuck in your head. You can't get rid of it. So the songs that are most likely to serve as ear worms are ones that have a repetitive hook that doesn't kind of have a a a a an ending, right? So baby shark goes on forever wheels on the bus goes on forever. I the tiger who let the dogs out. Another one is the lion sleeps tonight. Right. So you can they're almost like pieces that could go on and on and on in in kind of sometimes they're in round form, or or what have you? And so your brain Wentz. It starts going through the process of recreating his melody in your head doesn't know where to stop. So it just keeps going. The cure for your warms for most people is to actually, you know, voluntarily hijack that thread and let it sing through in your head until it stops or become really take your whole attentional focus and becoming gross in something really, entertaining, turn on your favorite movie, or or your favorite podcast, or what have you and really kind of focused in on that? But you have to get focused on it. So you have to usually. That's right. Like, if you're just checking Email or like doing things that don't require your full attentional focus like even driving for a lot of us like it'll just keep going on in the background. But interestingly enough people who have a real problem with ear worms might also have some other behaviors that are on the obsessive compulsive spectrum because we do think that the cod eight nucleus, which is this nucleus that's involved in the reward system. But also can be overactive OCD, essentially, it's. It. It's a habit learning a habit habit forming region of the brain can be overactive and people who who are who have persistent ear worms. So that to me is interesting too that in some ways like, you know, if you do suffer from persistent euro for when you're probably musically inclined because people who like these more who are more have have a closer relationship to music are more likely to experience your worms, but you also might be a little obsessive. There's nothing wrong with being a liberal obsessed. As somebody is completely obsessed with science hockey and a million other things it but going back to just really what this book is about which is about how music can make you better. I think moving beyond just your your brain. Let's talk about the the actual impacts on like on performance. Like, I think we can all relate to this idea. I don't think anyone that has ever gone to an exercise class has not heard the music beat going in the background and every runner knows that. But it also you highlight a number of examples of of music, not just increasing performance or driving pace, but actually having impacts in terms of therapeutics in in how we deal with with stress or pain or other really measurable conditions. He talked about music and how it can actually like he'll and what it. Taps into. Yeah. It's really interesting. So just as an aside about the sports part to interestingly enough like yeah. Like, if you go to a soul cycle class, and you're paying like thirty two dollars to be on a stationary bike. And all of a sudden, they're music system is broken. Like, that's a disaster. Right. No one's gonna wanna classes not nearly gonna be as fun. So, but if you're an elite athlete, and you're running a the the Boston marathon, and you're already at your max, it turns out that music actually, doesn't make you that much better there the data they're kind of mixed. So it depends on, you know, for those of us who are amateur athletes certainly can help us keep motivated and keep training. But if you're an elite athlete the fact that you can't listen to music while you're doing your sport is probably not actually hurting your performance. But you're right. There are ways in which music. You know, is is a model of neuro plasticity. It's actually a pretty easy to see brain changes. Both. An anatomical and functional with music training that that's why the musicians may brain is is often hailed as his model of neuropathy and often studied as such. So that means that if the brain is damaged because of a stroke because of you know, a tumor in Gabby giffords case because of a bullet bullet wound, you can actually use music in certain certain cases to help rewire the brain to initiate that plasticity and to help the brain either regenerate parts that have been damaged or reorganized such that parts that are still intact. Now take over those functions. So the example of Gabby giffords is where you know, she had it the bullet hit her in part, her left frontal lobe, and it left her unable to produce speech to talk, and that was obviously incredibly a hard for her because she was a person who was an exceptional order before the incident. So one of the ways in which music, therapists have. Have been helpful in her case. It was is a speech therapist that was using music. But these as I should say music therapy is really gaining a resurgence, and and we're starting to see really measurable ways in which using music therapeutic setting can have objectively positive results in a lot of different diseases and conditions. In any case what they do is. They sort of retrain, the the right side of the brain to to through music be able to produce some of the speech that was lost because of the left side of injury. So for example, you know, there's this great video of her where she's struggling to say the word light. And then eventually she is able to sing this little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine. And so, and you you hear her sing it and say the word light when literally just seconds ago, she could not formulate that particular word, and it it's really powerful. And I think you know, anyone who has a a a loved one who has suffered from dementia or any kind of neurological injury. But then has retained the ability to sing or to appreciate music. It's really remarkable. And you know, we can get into the weeds of why that is. But but ultimately, I think that because music is rewarding because it hits that reward pathway. And because it seems to have multiple representations in the brain. It can be a really great tool to access some of this neuro plasticity to keep people motivated to continue their therapies another example as there's great program out of the university of Calgary where people with Parkinson's disease use a smartphone app that makes them a group boards them for taking larger steps so in Parkinson's disease. One of the things that's hard. Is that over time? They people start showing the will be called Parkinson's shuffle where they're steps get very short and it's hard to initiate movement. And so in this in this intervention, they listen to music and the music stops if they don't take strides that are long enough. And so they are both motivated, and they can use the beat of the music to kind of entrain that particular movement, and it's it's seems really effective. So I think there are a lot of ways in which means it can be used specifically in these therapeutic setting. But as you mentioned to, you know, people who listen to music before they go under the knife actually report, maybe not needing as much pain medication or anesthesia, and so, you know, and it's because it targets the same neurotransmitter systems. I mean, you know, targets opioid receptors at targets since the reward system, and you know, it it it is it can decrease your stress level and so forth. So all of that makes it really a powerful tool. But you also emphasize which, you know, loyal fans to this podcast know, that this is not something that you just do casually that there's deliberate practice that usually underpins this this idea in order to really tap into some of these effects. Yeah. I think it's interesting. I think that you know, sometimes music therapy has has has not hit its full potential in part. Because there wasn't as big a impetus to sort of see what kinds of uses of music are more or less effective now, it's become much more evidence based and all the great music therapy programs really have a big focus on research and understanding objectively, you know, how to make it useful. And I think the same is true. Now have a lot of music training programs were released starting to see that, you know, just running scales over and over and over again, like, you know, for ten thousand hours is not going to make you a great musician me, and there's lots of, you know, there's lots of studies showing that, you know, people who have a genetic predisposition towards music and practice twenty thousand hours, you know, they're not any better than they're twin brothers and sisters who only practiced five thousand hours, but the answer is that is that there's thinks it's more complicated than that. Not every practice. Our is created. Equal and deliberate practice something very specific that enters Ericsson has has talked about, you know, there's really important. The major thing is to be able to have a teacher who is is really exceptional in the field, and is able to guide your strategies in practice, and then you use feedback during the practice they are constantly pushing against your comfort zone. So, you know, a lot of us practice things that were good at and we do it over and over again because you know, feels good and it's easy. But you know, your brain's not changing if it's easy. You know, you're you're just maintaining so so, yeah, I think that that I'm really excited actually about the future of understanding how music training how deliberate practice effects a measurable changes in the brain. And I think we're getting a lot better at figuring out how to make practice efficient. That's a passion of mine. And that will mean that even if you are picking up an instrument for the first time in middle age, you know, you should be able to see pretty measurable changes pretty quickly. If you are practicing in a way that is is really in line with a lot of these practices and tools. We've talked about music in the context of the individual the individual brain, the individual affects the make you better. But to me music is a social endeavor. It's something that you enjoy with a musician. You enjoy with your friends you enjoy colleagues you enjoy with strangers, and you spend really the less per the book talking about how music can it can do. More than just make us individually better it can really help shape society. Yeah. And to me music is a fundamentally social act, it's very powerful social glue. You know, if you think about if you look at pictures of music fans in you know, in a in a stadium enjoying their favorite band. I mean, you just see them there is they are all kind of you know, feeling connected through music. And I think that's that's fundamentally where music came from. I think it's the the power that it serves is to connect us and make us feel as if we are not alone. I mean, what's better in the middle of a break-up than listening to a great song where you can suddenly not not long and say, yeah, that's exactly how I feel this person has gone through the same thing that I have. And and now I feel better because I'm not alone. So I think that that's that's really the the power of music, you know, in terms of connecting people with Alzheimer's disease back with their loved ones, you know, someone who's been unresponsive for a long time. And all of a sudden seems to wake up because you can share a musical experience with them again, very very powerful. But it doesn't mean that. It's always for good, right? Like. You know, my favorite band growing up was U2. and Sunday. Bloody Sunday was very powerful song talking about, you know, a very bloody incident that happened in Ireland during the conflicts, and you know, Bano it's got nervous about playing that song and certain times because he was just worried it was going to incite more violence. And so he would at the beginning of his of the of the Peruvian forms of the peace say this is not a rebel song. Like, don't go out. And you know, this is not to incite more violence because he recognized that in fact music can be a powerful way to get people to behave badly. So, you know, oxytocin, which is a hormone that is involved in attachment and love, and is is in greater levels in levels increase when you're listening to music that you connect with. But it's also the hate hormone. Because it not only makes you feel more connected to the people that you are in group. But it also makes you more aggressive towards people that you deem as part of your out group who might be threatening. People in your in groups. So, you know, I think in that sense. Like, you know, it has power, but it's not always positive. And and that's why you know, you know, we amusing has been used in in some of these major conflict situations for better for worse. I mean, it's a tool like any other tool can be used for good or for ill. It matters. How you use that tool, but what I love is the sense that by enlarge when we look throughout history music has been used as a tool to bring people together. And whether it's to bring people together for a shared experience, whether it's to bring people together to really build out and identity, whether it's just a bring people together because humans just like being together, you look back NC music is at all with this thought that you end the book with I think encapsulated music is always should be for everyone. It can make us all better. Yeah. I mean, I I really do believe that you know, there's there's there's no social gathering that is not enhanced by music in my humble, but accurate opinion. Indre visconti. Thank you so much for joining us enquiring minds. The new book is how music can make you better. And it's vailable from chronicle books. It booksellers everywhere. Yeah. And I should say for those of you who bought the book and some people have found it difficult to read because the pages. The font color and the page color can be a little bit difficult, you know, under certain lighting conditions, the next printing of the book. So the the first printing, I think is already sold out the next printing will have lighter paper so that contrast will be higher. So, you know, wait that out, and and then, you know, if that's you or the book or the kindle edition of a book that's responsive to reader. He's needs amazing. Right. That's it for another episode. I wanna thank you for joining us for this installment of enquiring minds, and we'd like to thank our supporters on our patriotic campaign, especially David Noel, Charles Blau, Clark, Lindgren, Michael gal, goule Stephan Meyer walled Kyle Hala. Joel Jonathan Wordsley Yushi Lynn Eric park. Jordan Miller, Harring Chang and Shawn Johnson. You can visit our website at incurring that show, and you could support us at peachy on dot com slash inquiring minds and get an ad free version of this show. Find us on Twitter at inquiring show and Facebook, and you can send us comments feedback each guests ideas or anything else you'd like to contact at enquiring dot show. Just not that baby short enquiring mind just for that. No, no enquiring minds is produced by atom, Isaac or music is provided by word winning producer Rian. She'll and where your hosts I'm enjoying this contest. And you can find me on Twitter at Indre this. And I'm Kishore Hari at time t see you next week. 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54 | Indre Viskontas on Music and the Brain

Sean Carroll's Mindscape: Science, Society, Philosophy, Culture, Arts, and Ideas

1:15:11 hr | 1 year ago

54 | Indre Viskontas on Music and the Brain

"Hello everyone and welcome to the mindscape podcast. I'm your host sean carroll and today we have fun interdisciplinary episode looking at the area where music meets neuroscience since we've had a little bit of music had marsalis after all quite a bit of neuroscience but we've never looked at this particular issue teaming up how we learn about music and how music helps helps us learn how it changes us as people today's guest indre. This contest is a p._h._d. Neuroscientist and she still does neuro scientific research but her main focus has become music. She's an opera singer. Someone who gets up there in belle tout the arias on stage and also someone who creates new musical projects. She's the creative director of the pasadena opera for example so it's very natural that she would address this question of how musical influence changes what's going on in our brain and also how what's going on in our brain gene creates different kinds of music how it inspires us to do different things. Her most recent book is called. How music can make you better the idea being that in various ways not not only do we learn music. The music helps us learn other. Things helps us train. Our minds helps us be sociable and even can have therapeutic uses so it's been a lot of fun to learn about this while reading the book and talking with injury on the podcast because neuroscience you know is one of those things where we learn a lot. There's been enormous progress in recent years and months. There's constantly new neuro scientific discoveries coming down the pike but there's so much that we don't know it's so easy to ask a question neuroscience to which we don't know the answer so we'll both do that. We'll hear some of the fun new results that have been coming out but also point that a lot of areas where we don't exactly know what music in the brain or doing with each other one way or the other. I should also mention that injury has her own podcast two of them in fact one is called inquiring minds which i've appeared on the other is a new one uncalled cadence which is specifically about music n the mind here at the mindscape podcast. We have the news that we're going to be joining the wondering podcast network network. They're the folks who will be giving us the ads to eventually play here on the podcast episodes so if you want to tell wondering a little bit about the demographics of mindscape listeners you're welcome to go to wondering dot com slash survey look for little button that says sean carroll's mindscape and tell them a little bit about yourself that will help them decide what kinds of ads ads we should have on here. That's wondering dot com slash survey and with that. This is gonna be very fun episode so let's go <music> contest spokesman mindscape podcast. Thanks so much for having me so i'm i'm sure you've heard this before but you have a more unusual than most job description splitting your time between being a neuroscientist and being an opera singer and generally sort of a musical person as well as having a whole separate outreach component fact. Let's let let me be a good podcast host and let you plug your own podcast that you <hes> sure i actually have to now. The one that is weakly is called inquiring minds and that's a sort of broad view of science and society say where science and society collide allied and then i launched a couple years ago a podcast called cadence. What music tells us about the mind which has had two seasons come out. It's much more produce. The seasons are eight to ten episodes and it was actually the inspiration for a book that i think hopefully we will talk about today. We might talk about and so i'm working on the third season now which is going to be about how music influences us which i'm really excited about so hopefully we've. We've we're about halfway through having recorded the interviews so hopefully that will come out in a few weeks. Okay that's fantastic but neuro science you got a p._h._d. In neuroscience you're still practicing research science van a little bit yeah yeah. The kind of research i do now is much more kind of applied research that i find interesting that i think might help me become a better performer or become a better teacher or somehow that i do that. Nobody else can do you know having a big lab where i'm running subjects all the time you quickly become an administrator and it's a full time job exactly so i don't and do that but i'll tell you about one study that i'm kind of excited about so you know i've recently gotten interested in how technology can change our minds and can help us become more efficient if not less efficient as in the case of most technology seems makes us less efficient as we try to multitask and so i was really skeptical of this idea idea that you could stimulate your brain into becoming a better pianist. I don't know if you've seen some of these ads. There's a company called halo neuroscience that made this headset. That's commercially available and it's trans cranial direct stimulation and it's supposed to essentially stimulate motor cortex could it into what they call a hypoplastic mode which means it's more open to change and then you practice your instrument or you work on some kind of athletic skill and that's post to increase the efficacy with which you can train and so we're examining that we're trying to see whether that's true for our students at the conservatory of music so highly motivated evaded professional grade musicians and that's the kind of research i do now like is this really something that might actually work and if it does work are there protocols you know we should think about that would make it most effective so the music and the neuroscience viewer not two separate things. You're doing a thing and part of that things. Neuroscience part is music. Is it fair yes totally fair. I'm really interested in how the brain changes overall even my p._h._d. Was about neuropathy density and to me music is kind of really great model of neural plasticity because we can easily measure changes that happen with training even single exposures to music can leave their signatures in their brain just like virtually any other other experience is immersive in some way so that's interesting to me as a model but more so music to me is a really powerful way of looking at what it means to be human because it's so bizarre like why is it that we we can we can fall in love over music can incite hate over music. I mean people get it killed because they play the wrong rap song or perform the wrong wraps and so why it's so stupid ultimately uh-huh rarefied actions and compressions of air you know steven pinker will argue is totally meaningless. Language is much more important and yet you know it's pretty hard hard to kill somebody with words not that easy to kill somebody with music but it does seem to really powerfully incite people to behave in ways that they might not otherwise. There's something this rule about it. Yeah there's some connection and i do wanna get into where that comes from but but i it's not just that you like music and study it you do it so let's fill in the audience and what it means when i say that you do music sure so for ever since i can remember i was a singer. When i was a kid i grew up in choirs and then i started doing opera and even during my graduate work as a p._h._d. Student at neuroscience i maintained my love of music and i would scurry away every week for lessons and coaching and then the summers mars i'd go off to europe and perform role somewhere in some small company or training program and so as part of me and then once i graduated with my p._h._d. I just realized that i really i needed to give it a shot. Whatever that means <hes> so i went and got a masters in music and now i perform and i would say that my performing life maybe makes up a a quarter more maybe ten percent of of my actual kind of income generating or kind of project based work but it's a really important part of it and so so now i do at least one or two big musical performance projects a year and that includes not to singing with a musical directors yeah so i'm the creative director actor of a little company that founded with a friend of mine daynuss out of a district director called pasadena opera and we picked pasadena your backyard be for two reasons one. There's a big intellectual community. There and generally people who are well educated tend to be more likely to have been exposed to opera in there for like it and also there's a lot of history of of arts focus in pasadena and there's a kind of openness in the community to sort of towards cultural cultural change and so we were really interested in kind of like starting a company there that would really be about putting on opera. That's accessible. That's interesting that's relevant and that speaks to whatever's. What's going on in in the community so many operas have you put on. We've put on four and we're in the midst of of putting on our fifth is actually our first commission so clearly committed to supporting living composers <hes> so we commissioned a new york-based composer named daniel felsen fell to <hes> write an opera based on a the novel by a feminist from the seventies named angela carter she used to she wrote these retold fairy tales with feminist endings and she was not she was kind of forgotten time and she and her works have have kind of resurfaced interestingly through this metoo movement maybe but maybe just didn't because feminism is it always changing anyway so it's this retelling of the bluebeard castle story. Which is this psychological thriller where you have bluebeard who's some kind of big rich aristocrat. Whatever you wanna call him. He brings his new bride home and he says to her. You know you have access to this entire house except that one room and it's a real metaphor for marriage. You you know our partnership. Where like how much do you do. You really let your whole south be open to your partner or do you keep a little bit too. Maybe your darkest part and of course she opens the door because she can't help herself and in our all his dead wife things happened. Yes i could have guessed that she ever wants t._v. Spoiling it for you only because the ending is different in the bloody chamber which is what it's called so i'm really excited to put that on <hes> and so that that's going on in january of twenty twenty cool good. We'll watch out for that and when when you are performing it's singing right. I mean yeah opera singing. Just the phrase comes fraught with people being a little bit scared. It's different than other kinds of singing in looks hard. The standards are very high. Why did you pick the hardest kind and singing to do yeah. I mean it. It's hard to me. It's it's the only kind of singing where there and even these as kind of changing but there shouldn't be any in my opinion amplification so there should be nothing separating separating the human voice from the audience and that's why it sounds weird because in order to project a big space you have to be able to make a lot of noise but it still has to sound pretty <hes> so so that's what we trained for so many years to do to us are bone structure resonance diaphragm or lungs to be able to project sound as far as it can possibly go but still still sound beautiful to me. I love that. I love the sound because i grew up listening to it so it's very comfortable for me but i also love the stories i mean i'll impressive big nickel yeah yeah i mean you. Don't you know seinfeld. The opera would be a really tough sell. It was the game of thrones time yeah yeah well. I would make a great opera. You know i mean epic at the in some ways the wagner ring cycle version of game of thrones but <hes> yeah so. I think that that's that's what what appeals to me about. It is that is i have this connection to it to me. It's beautiful and it's challenging and anybody who proceeds athletic thing. You know why had people do gymnastics. That's really hard to understand that when either you know there's there's a kind of euphoria that comes with doing something hard and being able to do it well and now you're coming out. You've come out with a book that combines your passions for neuroscience and music. What is it the title yeah it's called. How music can make you better and it's kind of it's kind of an open question because of course the first thing better at what better and the answer is just better in many different ways so the first is it really divided up into three sections. The first section is sort of how does your brain turn sound into music and essentially make sound better which to me is really fascinating and and the second part is what people are more expecting to hear which is can it actually heal my brain or body and so talk about different ways at music is used in medicine but also oh you know is it effective in terms of workout tool that kind of thing and then finally i turn to weather music can make society better in my opinion. That's that's probably why it evolved. The way it did is because it's a powerful social glue. It helps us communicate when we don't have language <hes> or in communicate ideas. He is an ex and emotions that surpass language <hes> and but you know it it can also be used in ways that are not so good to incite violence to you. Get people to create tribes or groups. You know that then earn identified fight size exactly <hes> <hes> so so. That's three sections cool so that's good we have time to get into this so <hes> let me start with even before we get to music. What about sounds like what do we know about what happens. When you hear something what happens in the brain and i actually know a little bit about the visual process i know nothing about how we perceive yeah because i feel like it's physics research at new jersey of chicago. I was on the p._h._d. H._d. thesis committee for some students who were physics graduate students studying neuroscience of visual cortex okay something about that got it got it got it so oh i'm so and by the way right at the top when you it's like it's a pot calling the kettle black a little bit here sean multiple interests physicist is to in my opinion wrote one of the best books about consciousness so so yeah but okay so let's start with what sound is right so sound sound is just rare factions and compressions of air for some reason our species has decided that the way it samples sound is by turning it into a perceptual sexual experience that we recognize as sound right or this sound waves. I should say so can compassionate. This could have been very different right like the way bat. Here's through echo location is probably very different. It's probably more like the visual system and so so that that you know isn't is kind of arbitrary part heart of the way that we evolved as actually do we know if the way that bats think about sounds sort of melds with visual system differently than doesn't well. I mean i would imagine i don't know the answer to that question very deeply except to say that if i were a bat and i was because i think location as a way of seeing saying the world right because they use it to navigate undefined things <hes> so there are a couple of stories of one in particular that i'm thinking of a kid named ben underwood who when he was to do you know the story ben underworld when he was two he lost his is to re to cancer and he developed the ability to echo locate and so there are these amazing videos can here yeah watch on navy. I do know him. Not i've been on stage with him forgot his name. Okay yeah yeah that's right and that's how he sees so unfortunately he died but i would love to know him. I know someone else who had okay so maybe yes maybe there are others who do this. It's really fascinating and if you're one of these people that does is please please which reach out. I really wanna talk to you about this like get you in touch because the guy on stage with they have the school there in l._a. They teach echo locate. Oh so cool oh yes now. I have to go and see that because i think that's the answer to our question is like because what i mean what seems seems to happen is that they re purpose their visual cortex to use sound to essentially navigate through the world so i just wonder what that experience is like for them. I mean do they actually in their minds. I see the sound and there's a reason why tom's nails famous pieces. What is it like to be a bad example so different chose the bat an allergy because it because of that exact exact piece and anyway that already gets us down one rabbit hole also. I don't know what it's like to be about but i imagine it's different from what it's like for me to hear sound and so anyway so we've developed this ability to hugh somehow turn these sound waves into something that we now perceive of his sound. We have you know cochlea. Which is the inner part of your ear. That essentially does this transaction right. It takes takes. There's like literally a fluid filled structure that has all these little hair cells and the hairstyle sway as the fluid moves to the pattern of the sound wave that opens these ion channels at the tips of the cells which lets in essentially or changes the membrane potential way creates electrical change which then your brain you. That's the language of the brain right. It almost makes you sympathetic to intelligent design when you hear these complicated kinds of things so then you trace it back in time. Well has a membrane brain every cell exchanges ions. One cell just happened to turn that into a different signal that also released chemicals and blah blah blah yeah to me. It's all like some ways. Even more evidence that this is a process that is something that that just happened over these small little tweaks so anyway so we have like ten thousand of these hair cells or something like that and so we can tell how can tell different frequencies apart different tambor's and so forth and now imagine that you you're coakley does not function and you're hearing during one thing that we can do we can implant cochlear implant for some of these patients and restore hearing to away that is pretty remarkable. So you know my friend charles limb who is an ear surgeon. Who does this kind of work you know he he argues that in fact we can restore hearing better than we can restore any other sense but it's not nearly perfect perfect we can talk about now and in my understanding of the history of clear implants you know people kind of thought oh you can just put like an electrode into the cochlea that kind of you know but the problem is is only going to have like maybe ten to twenty leads you know as opposed to ten thousand hair cells so like also then how are you going to teach the brain to like interpret this signal nall and my understanding of the history is that they really worried about this for a long time and then finally some rogier surgeon just put one in and it turns out. They didn't have to worry about it because actually i was gonna guess that i don't know about the sensitivity in the ten versus tens of thousands but my impression from talking doc neuroscientist is the brain figures out dancing. It's exactly it's not just a module that only does one thing figures it out it figures it out and if the person is motivated enough to continue to repeatedly try and repeatedly listen in that way and trying to make sense of it then the brain will help out so that's what happens in these patients they essentially learn to understand speech which if you think about it as a really complex surround right it's the difference in the sound wave between two words spoken by the same person is so minimal compared to all the other sounds available right yet they're able to do that. They're able to essentially <hes> able to understand and and speak language. They don't really learn to appreciate music. Music still is feeling that yes like. There's this you know. Sometimes they give descriptions like it. It sounds like broken keys or just sounds like noise. I interviewed this one guy who basically had a cochlear implant for a long time and he was just like i don't understand hanway. Anybody would pay a single dollar for a piece of music. What about was this people who were deaf from birth yet. It doesn't really matter you know for the most part. I mean everybody. Eddie is somewhat different. <hes> so there are some people who who were great music aficionados lost their hearing but even for them in most cases the cochlear implant plant does not restore their love of music person who like the gentleman. I was telling you about he. He was hard of hearing from a very early age and he still doesn't so so he doesn't understand but anyway one of my little research projects with charles limb actually was to create a choir of people who are hard of hearing most of whom had cochlear implants in order to give them the motivation to spend the same kind of energy parsing music as they might you know parsing speech and we sort of had these ipads in front of them where they could see eh their voice spectograph like actually see this out that they were making and we had the pitches colored in different colors and so like you know in order to k- everybody's singing a hey. Here's what it sounds like on the piano. We don't know what it sounds like for them in their with their cochlear implants but then you know we can we can say it's got to be green on your ipad so make noise until it's green and so so anyway so we kind of the kind of work do but this is a long preamble to say essentially that ultimately how we interpret sound as music depends on our brains and it's high up in the air and so your if you're like opera. It's probably because you haven't listened. Do it enough you know or or is this on interesting to you. I'm not saying that everybody an ultimately has to opera but usually it means that if there is a genre of music that a lot of people really like and you know universally agreed upon good piece of music and you just don't like it part of it might be because your brain is not processing it in the same way right. It's not finding meaning in the same way like my mom for example hates rap. She hates heavy metal and i think it's because it just sounds like noise to her. I mean if you had brought a chainsaw into the room. I would find that annoying to metallica. I get that it's not that different right. So how would you define music. What is it separates. Musical from other sounds yeah so i think it depends on every person's brain. I think it's how the question is. How would you define it. You know and that's y you know some some things are music to some people and not to others and even silence can be music as some experimental composers have demonstrated. It's the the context that you bring in terms of how you listen to the soundscape right. If you're listening to the soundscape for meaning that goes beyond the speech or the kind yes physical aspects of the sound like where's it located. Is it a bird or a car then. I would argue that it's music okay but in the music that we know and love there are certain properties in writing the repetition versus variation exactly in fact repetition is the one universal feature of virtually every music that we know of except the music that explicitly the avoids it but that's kind of post repetition right leaders just being exactly and it's hard to listen to and in fact if you if you hack some of that music and adder petition people will label it as more interesting more enjoyable and more likely to have been composed by human beings so that's pretty good evidence that repetition is a key feature music and i think that that's the reason that it is because that's sort of that's the pattern right so you can turn a simple sentence into music by repeating it over and over again at a beat at some other kind of thing and all of a sudden you've got a piece of music and that's because i think the way that your brain your brain habituate right so you you you polka california. Please a sea slug on its tail. A bunch of times eventually stops withdrawing its tail basis served. It's not getting any new information so if you are listening to a repeated pattern you're going to search for new information on or you're going to ignore it right right so your refrigerator. <hes> probably doesn't have that much more info so after living in your place for a couple nights you ignore it no longer hear it but when it comes to music ah great music in my opinion has multiple layers of meanings that your brain enjoys is finding and seeing we are ultimately as you probably talk about better than i can interested in the search for meaning and isn't that right when it visits yes meaning and understand yeah meaning and understanding so it's the same thing i think in terms of music especially when that meaning and understanding tells us something really authentic about humanity so there's great quote by harlan about country music so country music is three chords and the truth and like you know even if you don't like country music like that it gives me chills thinking about that's truth. Truth is the hard part the hard part but it's exactly bright like great music tells you something truth fall that you can't get in any other medium yeah whether or not there are words whether or not they worked transcend the sort of literal meaning of the words. I mean so you mentioned just now. Had this law you mentioned that repetition rhythm in some sense is universal in how music gets done. Everywhere is melody universal yeah so i mean yes the two the two main components of music rhythm and melody right so i think most most people will argue that the vast majority of music out there has these two components and i think that again i think it depends on exactly how you define melody and i'm sure you can have a music musicologist who will talk about that for three hours. I'm not that person except to say. I think of it as a line that it is recognizable that sometimes repeated sometimes. It's not but you know has kind of phrase quality to it. There's a beginning a middle an end to a melody and it's recognizable us as a line and that kind of speaks to the fact that music is something that happens over time is crucially important especially important right and and and so you know music is there in the moment and it kind of unfolded over time in the melody is kind of what is the person taking the journey whereas rhythm is the in that setting the timescale yeah okay that makes sense so since you're sparky my brain with all these questions that i've never thought of before is their explanation for why traditionally music likes to pick a certain discrete set of notes rather than just have not had a violin by any note. You wanted to write but we agree the head of time. These are the notes you're supposed to play the major scale or something like that sure and i think that's because it allows us a kind of boundary or framework for where we're gonna find these patterns and and where we're going to extract the meaning repetition. There's only a number of choices to pick right. That's right that's right and and also you know different. Genres will have different rules right whether it's jot jazz or rapper hip hop or classical music depending on the era. It will have different rules of tonality. So how much can you deviate from the particular established tones right so one of the really great composers like beethoven for example was like scandalously deviant yeah from his time and yet we listen to it as seen so pleasanton and you know almost uptight in it's like rule-based structure so i think that you know in order for you to. I'm <hes> no an predict where the music is going to go. There has to be a kind of understanding of what the rules are so the example. I give is is jazz. So if you're if you never listened to jazz then you probably gravitate towards relatively simple riffs and melodies that is easily recognizable to you know where the melody is and you can kind of predict where we're it's going to go and it might surprise you a little bit but it's not totally shocking now if you're a jazz aficionado smooth jazz which is a lot of this. You just rolled your i. It's it's excruciating because it's far too simple. It's mind-numbingly boring in that sense because there's nothing interesting about it. It's like eating white bread so and so i think that you know that that means that you listen to it differently because so then when you when you listen to a really great jazz player and you know they're playing my funny valentine for example or some other really famous melody but barely recognize melody in it but you know where it's going at all if it's then it's like this magical puzzle that you're listening to you and it's really great so so yeah so i think that again i think it depends on your genre and depends on within the genre how how old genres how much it has established rules how much composers have had to push against these rules to create something new and so on and all this is to say that it harnesses what i think of as the brains fundamental trait which is wants to predict the future feature right like our memory is not about the past. It's about giving us the ability to create a potential future and see whether our behavior is going to make survivor. Kill us so that's really what ultimately music does it harnesses the brains desire to predict the future and so you create create tension as a musician for an ultimate release if you stop the peace before the tension is released. I mean unless that's right no more. It's an intentional choice in which case you've annoyed your audience and that's your right so i think that that's kind of <hes> what we have to be able to give our listeners enough information about what what the future is going to hold for them and then as great musicians. We know that we can push pull against that to tell them something. Truthful are interesting. Do you know about the beijing in brain hypothesis. Have you heard of that. I mean i know that bayes theorem so yeah. Tell me more about the brain hypothesis carl frison who apparently is a famous neuroscientist just imagine guy yeah exactly so he he's a little funny because he got a very famous in a billion citation center for imaging but now his whole thing is is this grand unified theory of the brain called the free energy principle or the basin brain hypothesis and it's basically a formal date formalization of exactly what you said all the brain mm tries to predict the future so it's called beijing because you're you're constantly updating when you get new information in and you're trying to minimize the surprise what happens and he tries as to you know is very controversial. Some people love. It's people hate it. Lots of people say i would love it but i don't understand what he's saying but it's probably too simple to be exactly true but i think there's probably something true about it. Yeah and i think it's actually really important from an earth science perspective to put it out there like that that takes a lot of courage especially nowadays nowadays as you know. We have access to so much more information than it seemed like we did thirty years ago but yeah i mean i probably would endorse a lot of that particular idea well so you mentioned the difference between you know a simplistic pop song and <hes> oh trae jazz improvisation <hes> <hes> you also mentioned in the book that there are two points in a person's life when they are especially susceptible to learning and being impressed by music right yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly and i think in some ways maybe of course as you know you write a book and then a bunch of time goes by and then it comes out and you're like man. I wish i'd written sometimes. I think that you know it really is about the early periods like early. Childhood is essentially when your auditory cortex is developing is when your brain rain is learning to process sound so kids who are trained as musicians early on their brains literally react to sound differently even if they stop playing piano or stop learning in their instruments many many years later we can still see the kind of quote unquote musician signature something was wired wired in there and so you take a kid who's exposed to a lot of extraneous noise who has to actually tune it out then you're you're their relationship with sound is going to be different and in fact some of these kids who grow up in urban environments who you you know generally are more likely to be low income because they're exposed to a lot of noise that can't be to doubt they sometimes have trouble with language skills later on in life because they're just not hearing like they have trouble parsing speech out of noise so you can imagine that that's problematic thing and if you teach them to play musical instrument you can actually undo some of this damage because what you're doing is essentially retraining their brain to process sound differently to have this different neural signature when it comes to a sound stimulus or sound wave so that's the early period so that's kind of nuts and bolts of it and that sort of that is when we like the most simple and repetitive stuff right on the bus go round exactly exactly exactly and i mean the part of that is because the kid is trying to figure out you know he likes to predict the future do so why these these songs that never had really the era is a calvin hubs cartoon says i know kelvin is is grumpy. He clearly just got upgraded by his mommy. He says i think if a novelty christmas song funny once it's funny that thousands time they don't understand why only logical why isn't it funny that thousands time well they'll learn but i think that the second period is what i think of more as kind of the emotional you know the the part of of of your life that you always return to nostalgically through music. It's part of your life where you know your your brain your prefrontal cortex which is the last part of your brain to develop and wire up essentially that's when it's being mylan right when there's the fatty sheath that is going is wrapping itself around the connections between neurons to make them faster and more efficient sent and the front part of your brain is where you do a lot of complex decision making emotional regulation social interactions. He's kind of like higher higher level cognitive in human traits so that's all developing in your late teens and even into your early twenties. Tell me more about the mylan eating. I don't everything yeah so the nation is essentially one of the reasons that we have the brains that we do is because we as mammals and vertebrates have developed the ability to make our axons more efficient right so the excellent as part of the cell that takes information from cell body from the dead rights and and sends it down you know it's wire essentially and then lets out information on the other end right so in order to be able to cross large swaths of brain in order to go from your spinal cord to your big toe. We need that signal to be really fast so one of the ways that the the <hes> nervous them has evolved to make it faster by mile leaning essentially covering it with a fatty sheath insulating wire right so the the electrical changes to bleed out all the way down. The action potential propagates essentially at jumps. It's called salvatori conduction so you can think of that. It is like <hes> you know. You've got a bus in your local town. It can make a stop at every single. We'll stop sign which makes it really slow more. People have to get in and out or you can have the rapid a bus. That was the express right so myelin creates xpress the buses out of our exxon's. Does it happen to every exxon or is it. The most never say every and science but the vast majority to be a teenager before that teenager before that happens in the prefrontal cortex so in the rest of the brain that's happening earlier on on and this is actually one of the reasons why it seems that maybe people who ultimately develop schizophrenia have their first psychotic breaks or their first disorganized tonight's thinking episodes around their early twenties late teens because as as the healthy teenage brain or neuro typical teenage brain as miley meeting up and you're becoming coming more rational and you're able to control your emotions. The brain of a person with schizophrenia is not mine eating in the same way and so their thoughts become disorganized. They start to have these as other experiences so yeah so the nation of the prefrontal cortex seems to be what is happening during these late teenager. This worries me into thinking that there's something it's freezes about you. When you're a teenager i mean a lot of people argue that some of your personality traits do get formed there. Although there's this really interesting now l. kind of movement in personality psychology question that like do we actually change pretty substantial in terms of a prisoner get older but but yes that's that's the traditional model. Is that <hes> you're you're developing your a lot of your the way that your habits of thinking i should say in this time period okay so you're mile innovating but you also raging hormones going through puberty and you're listening to tunes with your friends because you have a push to separate from your parents right. There's this i mean it's it's better for are you to go off and have sex with people who are not genetically related to you need to leave the family ness so there seems to be this kind of rebellious eleusis part of our nature that comes online here which you could imagine is actually very evolutionary adaptive and so one but we don't like to be alone right. We don't wanna i feel isolated especially when we having this these big emotions and you know we can't rugged regulate them yet and there's all these things of every i've everything's self esteem is coming on to play but we're pimp and gangly and everything right. I don't know people who think that those were the good times and do lies so so one thing that's great about music is that it's a powerful social glue so when you listen when you when you balancing sync with someone else to music you actually raise levels of an attachment hormone called oxytocin in both of your brains and that makes you feel more bonded so there are some clever little experiments where you know you'd have people bouncing in in sync with each other to particular piece of music or instinct with the experimental and then you know the experiment finishes and thank you very much and you know here's the debriefing sheet. Oh let me just walking to the elevator and on the way to the elevator you drop a pencil. How likely is the person to pick it up. Turns out that if you bounced in sync much more likely the better reproduce well and it's been reproduced in toddlers well nonetheless toddlers will also be more likely to help and accidentally dropped opt toy bounced in sync by the adult or by the adults friend but not if there's a neutral person in the room. That seems to be a stranger so there does seem to be some. I'm kind of attachment that happens where you tend to associate the person that you were in sync with literally physically as part of your tribe and people who are out of sync with as another another try. I wonder if mirror neurons has for sure for sure or at least the mirror neuron system idea that in our brains we mirror the activity of the brains of the person that were watching being as they perform some goal directed activity right so so there's there's that that in you know related to empathy but you know this. This kind of synchronization denies asian in fostered by more oxytocin. This is all pro social bonding stuff right so people sometimes think of the oxytocin toast as the love hormone right. It's not just you know. It's much more accurate to say. It's the attachment hormone because it's also hate hormone right so you actually feel more aggression towards people you deem as threatening your tribe or outside of your tribe when you're high when you're high on oxytocin i had patricia terschelling on recently in the state message. This is like very very important but more going on than you might way more. I still i'm going to call it. The cuddle molecule. That's a musical name. Sorry yeah you oh. You still might be skeptical. How much what if you know you can snort oxytocin our you can like you have these oxygen nasal sprays and if you <hes> <hes> there's a study that i really like where i've you spray people with this or give them this oxytocin nasal spray. They actually keep the rhythm better like rhythm the rhythm molecule enough you think about like what what it means to be in sync with someone that it seems like that would make sense. The secret secret is h._m._o. Is it this is connecting a whole bunch of different podcasts topics. They talked stephen stroke gas about synchronization different systems laugh okay so <hes> <hes> yeah and so but but this story helps explain why we are we always have a special attachment to the tunes that really fell in love with when we were teenagers even if look back and with a slightly more on di well i get that that's not the best song ever but it's my song that's right. I mean it's still especially the first time you hear it again. After a while it still gives you the rush of nostalgia this rush of feeling rush of kind of security that you probably found in the music that you loved because you helped you find yourself in your tribe but you're exactly right that we can recognize that. It's actually not objectively good music and still have this good effect was interesting is that i feel like we actually tire it more quickly though so like imagine that you you have like what what's your favorite song from when you were a teenager early twenty. Can you name one or like a favorite band. Yeah i can name a bunch lemme name. Yes yes okay now. Let's say you spend all day listening to yes. How soon would you start getting sick of it. Well so here's the thing the reason why named yes. This is because fairly recently i i don't know why but like i re downloaded an album that they came out with when i was in college. I started listening to it. It and i cannot get my head anymore. Like it is embedded and reading your book. Maybe think about that great yeah sadly apparently listen to it again and again and not quite as elevated enjoy it as much. I feel like in my experience at least anyway and i don't have any science to back this up but it seems that <hes> yes those when you hear them again for the first time it feels great if you're finding your own teenage self again which is really encouraging if you're not bat close to your teenage years anymore but i also find that you know you. I'd get bored more quickly. We'll you certainly want to move on but you also mentioned the idea of the earworm in writing sometimes we really find it difficult to move on from a melody stuck in her hands yeah and i think there are certain characteristics maladies that make them more likely to be stuck in their heads and things like baby shark or wheels on the bus have this problem where their never ending like unknown. There's no resolution and so your brain is like oh yeah. I got that in my head now and then it just keeps looping <hes> especially if you're not paying very close attention to it so like one of the cures ear worms is to in your head like like volition make up a big ending have put a big finish onto the peace like working through and then hopefully you're going to be like okay now. That's done. I can move on but if that doesn't work and this is really troubling to you. It turns out that medicines that are used for people with obsessive compulsive disorder can be effective getting rid of the most severe types of ear ear worms and that's because it's essentially becomes a little bit of an obsession right and we see an overactive caught eight nucleus which is a nucleus in your brain that is part of the kind of goal directed motivated learning system. You already explained it. It's not my kind of nucleus atomic nucleus using the word nucleus. Oh yes yes yes no. I guess i forget that. A nucleus is a group of cell bodies in the brain okay good and the caudill kat eight nucleus so yeah it's part of the reward system and essentially we think of it as the wanting part of the brain so in the anticipation of something pleasurable or actually something awful you can see more dopamine activity in the nucleus and the nucleus is also like if you lesion it then animals have a hard time learning new habits and skills okay so patients with parkinson's disease for example or huntington's disease have have plus dopamine in the brain and the kite is affected and anyway so they have learning problems so really when it comes to music we see the at active during the building up of tension part of a musical phrase and then when you get the release of tension if you get the chills maybe or you know some other kind of reaction action. We see a big spike in dopamine in the nucleus accumbens which is we love the liking part of the brain so if the company does the wanting part of the brain that nucleus accumbens the liking part of the brain right so it actually gives you the sense of pleasure as opposed to the pursuit of pleasure so anyway caught it is really fascinating because it's been implicated in a lot of human behaviors that are hard to understand like for example people who have enter xia we think now it might be partly to do with a habit of not eating so that they find eating aversive and we see an overactive kadett in the sense that so it's not just a desire to be thin. It's just that eating is unpleasant. It's it becomes habitually unpleasant and so the worst thing that you can do is force feed a person with anorexia because then you give them a really aversive experiences associating misery with either even more right right so this is a part of that tracking the aspects of the world that will lead to good things or bad things but regardless things that are important emotionally so this is also why a lot of people who overdose tend to do so in novel environments like like hotel rooms because your brain connected us. Look you know your brain expects drug if you take it in the same place at the same time and so it it. It's an interested in maintaining homies days so it swings in the other direction so let's take. Let's say you take a drug. That makes you feel <hes> you know down like benzodiazepines right. They actually inhibit brain activity. They sedate you. Get rid of your anxiety now. Let's say you take a lot of these drugs. You have to take more and more of them to get the effect because your brain is expecting them right is trying to predict the future so it's giving you actually you know more anxiety more stress more <unk> activities so that you need more of the drug to get back down now. Let's say you go into a novel environment. You take the same dose of the drug. You've been taking in your old environment but your brain is not prepared prepared for it. That's when you overdose right so the same exact amount can now be fatal and that's because you're caught it was not prepared right but in the other locations locations you're cutting is trying to figure out what is it about this environment. That's going to cause good thing to happen. I'm just telling now i'm sort of surprised that led zeppelin could ever ride stairway to heaven without knowing all this neuro science accurately manipulated the cauda eight nuclei all their audience member asked and great musicians know this i mean they know that in order to have a great piece of music you need to delay the release of tension as as long as possible you know the longer you extend the desire for pleasure the greater the pleasure when it comes and pleasure is the death desire right so yeah and there's a trade off. You can't extend it too. Long or people will get frustrated exactly quick so i wanna talk about music and learning <hes> in this sort of has two sides to it right one is that we learn music right so yeah we <hes> <hes> what is the neuroscience of how we learn music. Let me just mention one fact that i've read new book which i thought was absolutely fascinating. The musician certain musicians play their instruments so much that when they're playing you know two of their fingers always move in the same way in synchrony together and their brain begins begins to forget that there are two separate fingers naps and i always heard that the other way around you know how the brain can sort of remember extra hearts but i'd never ever thought about the brain forgetting that there's a part there yeah. This is the dark side of neuro plasticity. It's called <hes> focal dystonia so essentially where you have a particular body body part which now your brain has troubled de-coupling this particular and and we're still learning exactly how this works but the idea for i think it's getting traction. Some musicians like you perform the same pattern over and over again you train your your hands to be in sync in a certain way and then all of a sudden in your brain actually re maps your sensory cortex as that being just as you said one finger rather than two fingers and so now it's very hard for you to decouple them and n. Play them one at a time and it becomes actually a problem and you can develop musician's cramp these other kind of really really painful annoying conditions the pianist i would never get this because their fingers are doing different things so what kind of pianists to have gotten it but but i think there are mainly it's i've seen it in guitarists wind end instruments but but yes you can't get in in piano although it might sort of look a little bit different where it's not just maybe maybe the fingers palm finger you have that kind of mapping or just some other kind of mapping gone awry basically and and but yeah like i you know i had a student for whom it was the pinky finger and the ring finger that got associated. She was a clarinetist so you know she did play and so then you know she had all these consequences where you know she would get nervous and it would start shaking and this this these yeah these kind of neurological things that you you you sit when you think fingers do thing really annoying is brain brain to your thing right so so painstaking then kind of rehabilitation period where you have to retrain you train your brain to kind of map it differently again and how much of learning to be a musician is subconscious in in some ways is cognitive yeah so i mean i. It's just like he's playing an inch musical. Instrument or singing has so many complex different prince sub skills. I would say it's hard to sort of say that kind of in a blanket statement has lots of conscious aspects of music making the interpretation music reading if that's what you're doing cetera cetera but in terms of just the pure motor skill i like to think of there's kind of three stage model by fettes that i like where things kind of start clumsy and cognitive like when teacher tells you okay. You've got to hold the your bow arm has to be in this direction like keep your elbow or whatever you actually literally sit there and think about it. It doesn't feel natural doesn't feel natural. You have to in order to do it. You have to consciously say okay arm lift up right over time over multiple repetitions. You start to associate okay when i'm going to pick up the ball. I'm gonna do this sequence of movements right and so that's called the associated stage where it's becoming a essentially what you're doing is you're automating parts of the motor motor sequence but you still have to think about how to implement them. Another example is driving stickshift learning dr stickshift right at the beginning. You're like what do you mean a first year second year third year clutch and then eventually. You're like okay everytime i shift gears. I have to put the clutch down. I get that but then it's like you have to put it all together and that eventually you get to the automatic stage where it's now implicit and in fact if you start thinking about it too much you can actually interfere with your ability to do the task right and this is because what's happened but in your brain is that you've gone from what we call sort of explicit or declarative memory version of the task where you're actually thinking consciously <hes> to uh non declarative or implicit performance of the task where and these two systems can compete with each other for your cognitive resources so you know you you don't want to interfere with your implicit learning if you can avoid it but then eventually if you become really good at what you're doing like you gave the example of tiger woods who in the middle of a golf swing he can check his swing and readjust if he needs to even though a lot of it is very automatic that's sort of bringing consciousness back the higher level of conscious yeah so you have your huma playing a cello suite and somebody in the audience coughs right like he he. Can you know it doesn't bother me at all or you know there are some kind of breeze that happens or or one of its strings breaks or or what have you know he can adjust were using the five because he's so good at what he does interesting and is it true that we get worse at learning how to play music as we get older so you know ah i think i think we still have the same expectations of things happening quickly. As we get older we often don't spend the same amount of time doing things as we get older. You know what i mean. I've long suspected acted the people exaggerate the difficulty learning things as your older just because they don't remember how much work it was insane which they've pitted young and kids against college age adults like in a motor tapping task for example the college students do better quickly take some fewer tries and fifty fifty year olds well. I don't know that they've done that. I don't i don't i don't i know there's this gary marcus book guitar zero where he documents his own journey through this and disagree with him in a lot of parts of his book because i just don't believe that the way that he was approaching the deliberate practice component is going to be the same name somebody who's devoting all i know he spent a year learning to play the guitar and so forth but you know it's a year like any college student in my music program i in their first this year. They're like barely surviving right. It's by their fourth year of doing this every single day with feedback with training that they start to make serious gains so i think it's it's an unreasonable expectation that we can learn something very quickly as we get older without putting the same kind of time trying to offer hope those those beyond hormonal teenage years yes i mean if if you really can just don't have the time and the money to talk about what we need to do but if you have it. I don't think there's any reason why you shouldn't be able to now. Do something really exceptional with instrument is there have people talked about the relationship of that question to the question the learning new languages. I know that there's been at least some studies that say it. It really is harder to learn languages yeah so part of that is because you do have the sensitive period and language learning where the way that your brain processes language is different if you're five live and then if you're fifty five it really is e learning a second language we see mapping on differently in the fifty five year old brain compared with the five year old brain. The the same is actually true for learning perfect pitch interestingly. There's a say came out of japan that looked at kids who are between the ages of two and four and one hundred percent of them that finished the training protocol had absolute or perfect pitch perfect pitches pitches where like icing any note and you can tell me exactly exactly right yeah or or like a bus rumbles by and you can tell me what noted it's playing quote unquote so that's perfect pitch in in neuroscience we call it absolute pitch because what does perfect mean right so these kids one hundred percent of them and ended up getting absolute pitch and and that's because is the way that they process sound is different and when they're in that sensitive period they can extract regularities differently than when they get older they listen to who it differently as their auditory cortex insurers so i think you're going to see some similarities in language right. That's why kids who learn languages early. Don't necessarily speak with an accent because the way their brain processes. That sound is different so so. There's probably some elements of that but music again like it's so subjective like. Did you really want to be a perfect player ear as a musician well. It's better than being what i am. It's all relative but you also have a reason for why you wanna play whereas like like the six year old. He's playing piano is probably doing it because their parents told them to. That's right and you you make the point that you can even learn to sing well more than most people think i think most people probably think that there are good singers out there and less good singers and you argue that it's more about training and practice and knowing what you're doing the most people think yeah yeah because we see the differences in the brains of singers as they've end songbirds and you know other other species that have this unique ability to vocalise native ways <hes> <hes> we we see the brain changes so you gotta wire it up differently but that takes time and i think one of the things that is really hard is that for a lot of people awkward singing is really embarrassing right. You know so they don't so it's tied into this whole emotional thing that makes it so if you're if you're you're trying to sing and you're you're having such a big emotional reaction. Your brain is gonna be like first of all that. I don't wanna do that again or it's going to be like focusing on what are the aspects the emotion not on the content of the information that you're getting right so so i think because our voices are such a reflection of who we are as people. It can be something something that's really. It's hard to be objective and just say i'm just going to keep training on this until i got it right but you can learn. I remember an interview lady gaga where the interviewer is asking about about the fact that when she was young she was in a led zeppelin cover band belting out you know rock and roll and and misty mountain hop and so they said doesn't that hurt your throat if you sing all night long and she's like not if you know how to sing that's right if you know how to do it exactly and so i'm an opera singers tried to sing musical theater without knowing what they're doing. They will hurt themselves else. Even though they have this apparently really great technique but musical theater singers who then turn around and try to sing opera again can hurt themselves but if they but not if they're doing what they've been trained to do. Can you pinpoint what the differences between singing and musical theater in singing opera yeah. I mean you know in in a nutshell. It's sort of belting so essentially it's where a your pudding most of your <hes> timbre and remember the musical theater you're largely amplified so you don't have to project as much <hes> <hes> and so essentially the way that you how much pressure you put through your vocal cords and that is different you know put it down to that you the way you use your resonance and and the way you the way you control your breath is going to be slightly different and what about the other way around <hes> we can learn music and there's the claim that music helps us learn. There's the mozart evect right and this was actually based on something scientific and then it got a little bit out of control. Yeah i mean something scientific in the sense that it was like literally one a one page paper from nineteen ninety-three from u._c. Irvine yeah of like you know. Thirty undergraduates is is people had the scientists had had three pre-conditions. They had these undergraduates perform ultimately a bunch of the i._q. Tests sub tests like the spatial reasoning tests. We're like the years. Here's a picture of a geometric shape. Here's some blocks make the blocks look like the picture i kind of thing so they had three conditions. The first condition was where they played mozart's piano sonata believe and for fifteen minutes before they are asked to do these tests or they sat in silence or they listened to relaxation tapes now. Which of those three conditions do you think more arousing music probably slightly more awake slightly the more engaged perform better slightly on these tests if you had given them a shot of espresso or in subsequent reputations of this what kind of work you know reading a stephen king chapter was just as a rousing blur was just as housing. Were you using a rousing just in the sense of heightened sense. Yes i mean just more awake. Yeah i don't mean sexually but okay but but certainly in terms of just your general whether or not you're awake or asleep general arousal level of your brain so yeah so so that was originally mozart effect and that led into this whole like baby einstein like play music basic for your baby. It'll be giving them better. I q which most of it is totally not supported by the research but if you look at sort of musical training there is a relationship between between the extent of musical training and ultimately academic success if that's really what you're interested in or performance on i._q. Tests which we all know are imperfect measure of intelligence chance but what we see is that kids who have three years or more of individual music lessons tend to show higher i._q.'s or a higher academic achievement then kids who on average don't have that kind of exposure now. You've got a con found here potentially of socioeconomic status because on on average kids that can afford to go to music lessons are going to be on average richer than kids who can't <hes> but there are a couple of nice controlled studies like there's one study in particular. I'm in out of boston public schools where they randomly assigned kids to two groups. One was an instrumental music group one was kind of just group music classes and and they did start seeing <hes> <hes> changes in the brain after only fifteen months of musical training that that map onto what we would have expected now they didn't see changes hugh or changes in parts of the brain that we think are really responsible for higher intelligence but that's because i think it just wasn't enough time so limitations the study you get in the way at some point. I do think it's compelling. If you're only studying music to make yourself smarter i think probably you're going to burn out eventually but i think music is something i mean that is enjoyable and stretches you and put you out of your comfort. Zone and one of the great statistics that i love to quote is that it makes you more likely to go to school so in in in in l. a. for example there have been a number of studies of kids who are at risk who don't generally are not expected to attend school very often if if you put a school music program and they're more likely to show up interested they wanna play. They wanna play in the band. They like it. It's it's more fun to go to school now. You keep kids in school and off the streets. They're less likely to commit crimes and end up in juvie or ultimately in jail. Now you take one child and you turn around. They don't end up going to jail that pays for our ten years of a music teacher salary right right so so i think that in that sense it can make us all smarter because it can it can make us make school more enjoyable. It can make us attended school more and ultimately help society but that's learning an instrument or or being trained in music. We you said earlier. If i'm remembering correctly that being exposed to classical classical music when you're young will affect you later in the sense it'll make you more likely to appreciate classical music when you're older you're saying it doesn't help you with any higher cognitive capacities capacity's but maybe being trained as a musician does yeah exactly exactly. I don't know that listening to mozart. Growing up is gonna make you smarter. I think that if you listen to mozart growing up you probably have a family that has the heredity and you know the that'll put you. There and i can't say that that's the the actual listening to music. It's a bigger factor than those other huge factors yeah and then there's a you know the final section of your book which is fascinating about these social aspects of music. I mean you make the point which which is a good one but when i never thought about that most music is truly social unless you are all by yourself performing a piece of music that you wrote yourself right uh-huh rather than that right and even then you still have you probably still have the idea that there is a listener. Maybe somewhere like really trying to see. Is there any devolve with ahead written on it yeah so and that plays out in a million different ways i mean the book is about how music makes the world better so how how does how does music in this sort of social aspect help us make the world better well. I think it in the in the most simplest way i think engenders empathy i think it allows us to put ourselves in someone else's shoes to experience someone else's humanity in a way that maybe we wouldn't have in another medium and therefore feel merciful towards them amore feel connected to them or in somehow understand them a little bit better so if you think about <hes> the kind of music gives people an outlet like sometimes i think about like the turntable table culture of the nineteen seventies and new york where you know this is where this you know this this was invented it was invented because people needed to get out of their homes because they didn't really love where they lived and they wanted to be social together. Go out to the streets and they'd have these dance parties and they just wanted to keep dancing and so they created this to turntable technique where you can essentially keep the rhythm going. It doesn't have to stop ends. The song doesn't end right and you can keep dancing forever right and and so anyway so and then and then you add onto that spoken word and an outlet for people to express themselves and and so forth and so all of a sudden you can see that how that this kind of genre of music evolved out of a sense of trying to engage with your community and trying to make your own situation better and of course there's a flip side. We already said servite songs and fight songs can be good if it's just you know my sports team brassiere sports team but there's also martial music i mean there's you can stir up the emotions of the populace using using music. That's right exactly and even in the book. I mentioned bano. Who's my favorite artists growing up basically not wanting to sing sunday sunday bloody sunday because i was going to incite more violence i mean this is like you know he. He was genuinely worried about this. Maybe crazy i. I don't think he is right. I think that there are times when dan you can exactly stir up people's emotions enough where they go out and then they riot. I mean you do the same thing with you know for some reason sports ball game right they either but i think part of it. I mean imagine a sports event without music right. Take all the chanting and and you know music playing and all that out of it and you still have the same reaction. I don't know well. I mean it goes. I presume that there's a long standing relationship between between having a football gaming heavy marching band that half well yeah and even even the taunts on the shouts and we will whatever or like yeah exactly a yankees suck and the what i the example i think of when this topic comes up our soundtracks for movies and tv tv which always which are really important in a little manipulative if you like something in the psycho seen with like pleasant the wheels on uh-huh right i mean how much have we studied neuroscience of that. It'd be more and more studied and it's fascinating because now we have avenue certain places these kind of theaters that are built to <hes> steady people's physiology while they're experiencing. You know concerts films. You know where you can look at galvanic skin response which is a measure sweatier. Palms are brett breath rate respiration rate your heart rate is so we can actually see can track people's emotional at least the physiology of their emotions as they're looking looking at films or or listening to concerts and and so yeah i mean what is essentially what you think you would find which is that these things are very powerful and you can look at different aspects of music pacing the types of instrumentation used etc that can dictate what kinds of expectations people will start to have right like you have an anonymous mus ominous theme and what you see is a row boat on a lake in this foggy nothing the water but it was a calm pleasant kind of like you're about to have a spa day music then you think oh this is coming because the brain was predicting a very good clue for predicting exactly back in yeah speaking of the neuroscience of it forget about just sports or soundtracks do composers know about the neuroscience joke rela upland before is that a frontier where people are knowingly manipulating our nuclei. I mean i'm sure there are but i also think that in some ways this is an example sample of the artists knowing the neuroscience before the neuroscientists. No the nurse signs right like preuss was a neuroscientist right so so yeah i mean i think we've this is and this is actually why i turned the whole africans my podcast on this book in particular to like turn the audience. I don't wanna use signs to reduce music and in to take out all the mystery and wonder of it. I wanna use music to help me understand the brain right humanity. It's much more interesting to me because i feel like you know. Musicians ends and other artists have been studying these aspects of human behavior for so long that we can learn so much from their observations of what a successful and what is not about ourselves and then those make great can easily publishable new neuroscience research say oh look. Here's the thing that artists have known for one hundred years but i you know i thought so. I think it's really important actually look to artists and so when people say like how do you define music and my my answer is like ask your favorite artists. Ask your favorite musician because they will have a much better idea of what it means to have sole an idea of what it means to create a good track versus mediocre track because they they know it better than we do and so i think to me like we can the nurse science. Can maybe add a little bit but more importantly. I think that the art can can help direct the neuroscience. I mean completely agree but just to be nitpicking there. I do think that sometimes people know it broadly construed but can't say it for sure for sure mother skillset exactly lee and for me it wasn't until i actually saw the activation maps of the kite nucleus and the nucleus accumbens that i understood what my singing teacher was saying to me for five years which is injury. It's it's not the high note that matters. It's all those leading up to the high note and i was like you're wrong. If i know i'm not going to get paid right and she was exactly right and because if behind comes out of nowhere i technically that's really hard and it's gonna get his create a high note and to expect it and they don't care about. It just sounds weird. It's the journey the journey right and so and it wasn't until i literally saw this beautiful graph in a paper that showed how the dopamine is tracked in the kadett at first and then gives us like shoot in the nucleus combat might just be you okay the other people out using other methods we all get to the destination in different ways does <hes> so i guess just to the final idea that i wanted to ask about is the future of music slash the brain right <hes> one idea that i've been fascinated by is that we as a culture stopped individually producing music because we got recordings in stats right records and we got got radio cds and we don't see these anymore. We're used cds now. We have this digital versions whatever they are right right yeah i tunes is the word i'm looking for there but it i get the impression that technology is making it more possible to create music in in some interesting ways yeah. I think we're at a pivotal point. Maybe everybody says that about every decade but i actually do feel like we are at a pivotal point. I think that we are in danger of losing the amateur music musician which i think would be really tragic because i think we gain the most out of actually participating in music making see that from babies as early as six months and people people as old as ninety five who are come alive in the nursing home when they get to make music but the other side of it is that you're you're right that our lives are so busy we don't have time to devote ten thousand hours to learning the play the violin but we can create music with our computers and in these ways and it's easier than ever and maybe with technologies like nurse relation will even be able to enhance the ability to learn a new musical instrument. I don't know that's still a big a question mark but but i do think that we need we need to kind of really be thoughtful about how we approach music making and but i think this is something that's that's happening. All over even terms content creation everywhere like you started your own podcast. You know there are lots of people who create videos on youtube and so you have this like you know. Seemingly endless amount of content that now accessible to everyone and so- curation becomes really important but also no. I think that we can be participatory in terms of how we curate music maybe and maybe being a d._j. Is exactly that curing sound and creating new sound out of it as opposed post to creating your own sound kind of mean maybe sabinas will get mad at me for that but <hes> they're not playing instruments in the way right but but but content creation uh-huh many forms and i think everyone thinks they can talk <hes> anyone complain a camera but i think that there is a barrier. Maybe it's just mental. Maybe we should try to overcome it to either performing or composing new music yeah i mean i think it depends on how you hadn't how society defines the musician shen and i think up until now we've kind of gotten too far down the line of you need to be a professional musician yeah otherwise you shouldn't you shouldn't even bother and i think that's really unfortunate because i think in much of human history. That wasn't the case you know. Jane austen novel. Someone was going to piano every night. Someone all the time it was part of your education and you know even if you think about it like like ten thousand years ago or two thousand years ago like you know. If you're gonna make music it was around the fire. Presumably everybody was part of it and i think that we if we lose is that it's going to be harder to feel connected to each other in a in a kind of small way. It's all software demonstration of this thing. That would basically a computer the program that would help you write a song yeah did actually sort of came up with random things when you would pick the ones it sounded good and it would mix them together. In a plus i mean cool but then has to slobby social right like swimming in your basement and creating music with a computer i think is just not ultimately as powerful or motivating as playing garage band and i think that and we have to i think people are going to realize we're adaptive as a species when things go to swing the pendulum swings too far in one direction we go somewhere else right so in terms of how we social media if it's making a sad we're gonna stop using it in ways that make us sad so if we really miss making music together we're gonna stop sitting in our computers by ourselves creating m._p. Three files and we're gonna go back into the garage and pick up an instrument. So what do you think one hundred years from now. We'll be the way that we appreciate music sean. Sometimes i worry we're not going to be here. Conditional additionally stolen survival of the species yeah i think probably i still suspect that we will somehow find ways of being physically in sync with each other to kind of rhythm them and that melody will still play a role and we'll have time when and then maybe because you know our robot overlords will allow us to just spend all our days making music okay so now we're going to fade out to a piece of music that was written by a friend of mine from graduate school who who had abandoned and this is the theme music for mindscape so it's is. Is it a little bit of a reminder that we still be creating a little bit of music as well as appreciating indre conscious. Thanks so much for being on the podcast <music> <music>.

oxytocin sean carroll director pasadena opera pasadena dopamine europe exxon administrator steven pinker nucleus accumbens charles limb chicago motor cortex marsalis focal dystonia angela carter
Dr. Daniel Amen: ON Training Your Brain for Optimal Performance

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

1:28:12 hr | 2 years ago

Dr. Daniel Amen: ON Training Your Brain for Optimal Performance

"The only Oregon where size matters is your brain. It's the three pounds of fat between your ears. So the first thing you have to do if you want a better life is you have to start wanting a better Bray. You know, how passionate I am about sitting down with deep deep experts people who can broaden open my mind, and yours people that can teach me things that I've never thought about and I can share with you as well. And today's guest will definitely not disappoint is a clinical neuroscientist, a professor a psychotherapist, and he's a ten times New York Times best selling author. His name is Dr Daniel g Ayman and today, we're talking about his new book feel better faster and make it last unlocking, your brains healing potential to overcome negatively, and Zayed's anger stress and trauma. If you like the sound of what we're discussing today makes you go out onto Masan got bonds and noble and grabbed the book Daniel, thank you so much for being here. Giants just such a pleasure now. The pleasure is all mine. I was saying to you just briefly when we speaking before that this is what I crave in life is to sit down with. Someone who is dedicated their life and work and their purpose to such a deep and noble cause and to be able to sit with you is complete honor for me. So thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you so much, and yet this book when I was diving into and the conversation, we've just had I instantly had so many questions because for me, the brains. The most important thing for us to talk about right now, especially right now. And that's the question. I wanted to start with you with is why did you choose the brain throughout all your work as being such a big area of focus? Well, runs everything. But when I went to medical school. I wanted to be pediatrician is I adore children. And when I was a second year medical student. I just got married and my wife tried to kill herself. And I was horrified, and I was traumatized. I took her to see a wonderful psychiatrist. And I came to realize. If you helped her, which did it wouldn't just help her that it would help me. It would help our children. It would help our grandchildren. And so nearly forty years ago, I decided to be psychiatrist and I have loved it every single day, but I joined the only medical profession that never looks at the organ it treats. And before I went to medical school was in the army, I was an infantry Matic. And I got myself retrained as an x Ray technician and developed a passion for imaging, and our professors used to always say, how do, you know, unless you look how do you know, unless you look? And now, I'm a psychiatrist, and we're not looking and on an agitator, my father growing up he called me a maverick and to him that was not a good thing. But I got it from him. His favorite words growing up. When I was growing up the first favourite word was bullshit in the second his favor. Word was now everything was bullshit or no. So obviously, I got it from him. And and I loved being a psychiatrist, but I'm like, well, why don't we look at the bright? And because obviously, the brain is our organ, the brain, you know, is involved in how you think how you feel how you act how you get along with other people, it's the organ of intelligence creativity and every single decision you make and with my x Ray background. And I'm like, we should lock. And so in the late nineteen eighties. I started looking at the brain with this study called called quantitative EEG. And it was fascinating that I could see underlying patterns for things like, depression, and ADHD and autism. But in hundred ninety one I went to electron brands spectrum gene Specter's, a nuclear medicine study, the books of blood flow and activity, and it rocked my. World. Let me take a little detour please to how addiction start. Let's say gambling addiction addiction start with a big win. Right. Either cocaine. You're like, whoa. I've never felt like that before I wanna feel like that again or with gambling. You win the whole jackpot and dopamine slugs, the pleasure centers of your brain. And you like a wo- a want that again? Well, I'd been a psychiatrist for nearly ten years when I ordered my first spec scan. My first ten cases were big wins. 'cause I went into this profession to get people. Well, because I knew the pain of when you're not well from a suicide attempt from my first wife, and then the level of emotional personal pain that brought to me. And so as patients got better because I had more information. I'm like I have to do this again. Well today, we have one hundred fifty thousand scans that we've done on patients from one hundred twenty countries. So I'm completely addicted because if you don't lock you don't know, and we need to stop lying about that. But wholesale across the US really across the world, you'll go to your doctor. You say I'm depressed, I'm anxious. I can't sleep I have temper problems on obsessive nece and within a twenty minute office. Visit you leave with prescriptions Frank Zayed's, depression, sleep, and that's insane. When no one has looked at your brain. So you don't now does it worked too hard or not hard enough is toxic from drug abuse or from mold in your home. Or is it traumatic because you played a contact sport. And it damaged your frontal lobes. And so I've been on this. Crusade really to change sokaiya Trie because we should act like our other medical colleagues and look at what we do before we do it. But along the way, I've learned big lessons. Like, I do no harm that some of our medications are actually not that great for you that their natural ways to heal the Brian Eno, by the way, you gotta get your heart rate. You gotta get your gut. Right. You gotta get your kidneys. Right. You gotta get your liver right in order for your brain to be right. Because when you're brain works, right? You work, right? Absolutely. No. I couldn't agree with you more. And he was actually fascinating just Elliott. This week has been navene Jane on the podcast as well. And I don't know if you've come across the units, it dry should definitely connect you both. He feels very closely with the way you do around having a crusade around modern medicine, and what supplied and how it's just prescribed to anyone and everyone without actually knowing anyone's got brain or any other health. So I should definitely connect you. You've just bought the idea that. I want. I want to ask you before we dive into and I know everyone listening and watching you probably thinking like I am. Oh my God. We cannot wait for this because you can give so many practical tips, but before we do that. When I ask you more of a I guess a conscious question around. What is the difference between the brain and the mind and one of the mistakes, we make when tool came on the mind is understanding the brain the mine comes from the brain, if your brain is damaged damages your mind and without a brain. You don't have a mind now, you can train the brain. So that you have a healthier mind. But let me just tell you a story since I know, that's what you love is stories. That's telling there was this couple that were in marital therapy, and they went for three years spent about twenty thousand dollars and at the end the therapy. Flung told them to get divorced, and they were very unhappy that they had failed. And so they got mad at the therapist. And the therapist said will I know a doctor in Costa, Mesa, California that takes care of really difficult people. You should go. See? And you know, as part of our process, we scan people we do specked and the wife had a pretty healthy brain the husband had a moth eaten Brian was really low in activities pattern. We usually see with alcoholism or drug abuse. But in his history, he said, he never used drugs and he didn't drink. Now. The first thing you learn about drug addicts is they lie. So in front of his wife. I'm like was that true? You don't drink and you've never done drugs. And he said, Dr Ayman that's not my problem of never drank and have never done drugs. And then I looked to his wife, and I said see telling me the truth. And she said, oh, yes, doctor. I mean, he doesn't drinks far as I know he's never done drugs. He's just an asshole. But in my head. I'm like, what is this brain, look, so bad? And so I thought about well, what are the different options drugs alcohol will probably not if your wife who doesn't like you says, no. An environmental toxin anoxia lack of oxygen and infection severe anemia or hormone disruptions. And so my next question to him is where do you work? He said I worked in a furniture factory. I said what do you do? He said I finished furniture all day long. He was doing drugs news doing the worst drug of abuse, which is in hailing organic solvents, and I'm like wear a mask. He said, no, they tell me I should. And I'm thinking to myself. I don't say because I've good frontal lobe function. I'm thinking that is not the sign of intelligent life. Unlike is their ventilation. He said often nod it's hot I'm sweating, and I looked to his wife, and I said, so when did he become an asshole? And she said, what are you? I said did you marry him that way do have father issues you're trying to work out? And she said, no when we dated and for the first three years, he was great. It was about five years ago. And then the light went on in her head about the time. He got this job knees behavior started to change. Do you think it could be related, of course, could be related, and I love this shift. That's what the scans do they shift from? He's an asshole an actually his therapist gave him that same diagnosis. Now. You can't right asshole. In the chart. I've seen watching right is mixed personality disorder with narcissistic and antisocial features. What's that you're an asshole? Right. It's it's you can't decide a billing code, right? And that shift was so important because play. Out with me. He's angry. He's depressed. He's so he's mad, and he sad if they did with the therapist recommended which was get divorced. Now. He it's going to be like his skin as being ripped all scale is this is the love of his life. He just can't act in a consistent way. What is the organ of acting? It's your brand right in his brain is damaged. And so if they would have gotten, divorced. He very well could have killed himself, and is many people. Do you also could've killed his wife and his children. Right. So this is the consequence of not looking. But once we looked she shifted, and she's like, do you mean in his attempt to be a good husband going to work supporting the family that he's being poisoned and that he's sick. And he's not bad. Exactly. And so we took them out of work. Work worked on rehabilitating, his brain, which is one of my favorite things to do is taking bad brains and making them better and years later. They're still married. They love each other. He's much better. And she's not as stressed because when you live with someone whose brain is damage you become damaged as well. Absolutely. Wow. That's incredible. How I guess my my my follow up question. That is how many of us are living with someone who has done. It's brain. How many of us me sitting right here? Like, how many of us have a brain that is somewhat damaged in one of the mistakes we make when we're trying to heal that in everyday life. And the first mistake we make is we don't care about it that we don't love it. So when I started doing specked in nineteen Ninety-one, I scanned everybody. I knew I scan my sister's at five of them pray for me. I want you to scan. This got me one day I want. Yeah. I scanned. Nice scan my mom and she had at sixty a perfect way. In fact, she was our resident model of appropriate Brian. And she must've loved that fit the story of her life, even at eighty seven. She has forty eight grandchildren, great, grandchildren. She knows everybody's birthday. She's everybody's best friend does this phenomenal human being. And then I scan my brain. And I didn't like it because I played football in high school, and I had meningitis when I was a young soldier. And that just really pissed me off that my sixty or hold mother had a better looking Brian than I did. And so I developed a concept then called brain and v I wanted a better brain I wanted to brain that look like hers, and you know, as Pieters, or is it trains, the Kaya tryst. You have to have course, read Freud, and he had this concept of penis envy. And in forty years. Of like, not seen one case. The only time I've seen a case of it is when I was on Broadway a few weeks ago and intermission. I saw the long line at the women's bathroom and no line at the men's Pena's, then be there. Just right. But you know, it's really the only organ where size matters is your brain. It's three pounds of fat between your ears. So the first thing you have to do if you want a better life is you have to start wanting a better brain, and that is critical because that leads I know you you want for your listeners and viewers tips. We call them tiny habits, we work with the Stanford persuasive tech lab on how people change and they make small incremental changes that can make huge differences over time. So the first time. They have it. We'll talk about. And I actually think this is the most important one. It's whatever you do. Whatever you say, whatever you eat, whatever, you do takes three seconds. You just ask yourself is this good for my brand or bad for it? And if you can answer that question with intelligence and love because you do the right thing not because you should. 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And what they really are. Because that's not our primary business. It's it's a metaphor for there is no suffering in getting well, plus I am named after my grandfather who was a candy maker. I mean that was his job, man. But he died early because he was also fat and had heart disease, and I'm not bad. My don't have heart disease because I know it's a risk for me. And I don't give into the behavior making it likely to be so, but you don't have to give up chocolate back. I don't know if you're like me, but I'm very much a creature of habit, and it is so you know, I have maybe thirty foods I eat yet. And I only want them to love me back. So I only want to be. In love with someone or some thing that loves me back, isn't that all of us? So I have I don't know if you've ever been in a bad relationship. I have and I guess to meet your beautiful wife, and and one day hope you made mine and I'd door her, but I've been in bad relate me too. And I'm not doing it anymore. There's I'm not and I'm damn sure not doing it with food. Yeah. That too often have loved Brad love pasta. Love brownies. I love you know. In fact, I had one woman was talk about the Daniel plan at some point this massive program ended at saddleback church. Now, thousands of churches around the world do it and one of the pastors wives after she heard me talk. She said, you know, after I heard you I told my husband. I'd rather get Alzheimer's disease them give up sugar, and I'm like, did you date the bad boys in high school? That's like seriously bad. Really? Yep. -solutely right. That's terrible. Yeah. So let's. Talking about that kind of rehabilitation process and in the book, you obviously have your incredible acronym. And I picked out some of the letters that. I wanted to focus in on one of my big ones is when you talk about the rational mind now, I know that we prone to making irrational decisions in choices all the time. We do it every single day as far as I know in far as my reading is gone. And I wonder why we do that why we constantly choose to make irrational decisions and how we start to overcome that. So in the book, there's this cool pneumonic brain excel. And it starts getting your brain. Right. Because you're rational mind is better when you do that. And the rational mind is really about training, your brain. And training your mind to help you rather than hurt. You so often people are just brutalized by the thoughts that go through there. The heads and many years ago at a really hard day at work. I had seen four suicidal patients, and that's hard because you feel responsible for them. But you actually don't have full responsibility. I saw two couples who hated each other. I saw two teenagers who had run away from home. And at the end of the day. I'm feeling pretty stressed. And I walked into my house, and my wife and kids were gone. But there was an ant infestation in my house in my kitchen and furious, and is wiping up with felt like thousands of ants when you go to medical school, you have to learn fifty thousand new terms your first year. And so you come you get good at coming up with acronyms and demonic always playing with words, and as I'm wiping up the ants some thinking, how automatic negative thoughts. My patients are infested with ants. And I need to teach them to a radical dance. And so the next day at work. I brought a can of ant spray, and I put it on the coffee table. And I'm like, we're gonna get I'm gonna show you how to get rid of the aunts and over time that morphed into an anti-terror in an aunt up at because I also see children, and I taught them how to do it. And it's one of the most important things that I teach anybody. How do you don't have to believe every stupid thing you think and if you can learn to tell yourself the truth because this is not positive thinking? I am not a fan neither positive thinking. I agree. How's it? If thinking means, you know, I can go couple blocks to Jack in the box and get four of their big desserts. And it won't have a negative impact on my life. And who are positive thinking is I can, you know, full around. On my phone until two o'clock in the morning, and it's not going to have a negative impact. On me, the next day people who have low levels of anxiety, go to jail, and they direly there's actually a cool. Lung Javadi study out of Stanford where they looked at fifteen hundred forty eight ten year old children in one thousand nine hundred twenty one. And then researchers followed them for ninety years looking at what goes with hells success in long Javadi, and the don't worry he happy people died the earliest from accidents in preventable illnesses, the people who live the longest, they're conscientious. They told themselves the truth I've taxes to pay I better, pay them. Or I'm going to be in trouble. Or I said I'm going to show up at two o'clock, I show up at two o'clock. So it's conscientiousness which is really a prefrontal cortex function rights. You have to have your brain. Right. But here's the tiny habit. Whenever you feel sad or mad or nervous or out of control right down. What you're thinking? And then ask yourself is true. So those are the three little words I love, and I have a process that talk about in the book. So a bad thought like today is going to be hard. Is that true? Why don't know? And then the second question is that absolutely true. Now, how do I feel when I believe the thought awful who would I be without the thought free take the original thought turn into its opposite in which you find the opposite of which torturing you is usually true. So just blows your mind if you can learn to be disciplined about questioning your own thoughts, and I got this technique from my friend Byron Katie, she wrote all really. Ian book called loving what brilliant it's sort of a combination of cognitive therapy in Buddhism. And it's just I love it whenever I'm off. Or I'm sad or I'm stressed. I'll read portions of loving what is listening to because she read it, and she has a beautiful voice. And it's training your mind to help you rather than hurt. You another rational mind tech yet is start every day with today's going to be a great day why because your unconscious mind will find why it's going to be a great day. We are programmed through our evolutionary biology to wake up in fear because our ancestors woke up and the fear was real something was going to eat them. Something wanted to hurt them. And so you wake up anxious. But now, that's. Not true for most of us. And if you start with today's going to be a great day, your unconscious mind that begins to find a why is it going to be a great day and for families? It's a great ritual. Hey, hunting that is going to be a great day. And then you begin in your mind to find why it's going to be a great day so easy to find. Why it's going to be a bad day at the end of the actually do this as a ritual both at dinner. And then when I put myself to sleep is what went well today, and we focus on what went well. Now, we also want to focus on what can I learn from today? What could I have done better because we're always striving to grow? But when I put myself to sleep at night, I'll say prayer, and then I'll just go back through my day. What went well? Because it actually sets my dreams up to be. More positive than negative because dreams there's a purpose for them. It's really were consolidating memories from what happened that day. And sometimes because you didn't consolidate them from the past they get infected my negatively so super simple tiny habits that can make a big difference. Yeah. That's a great tiny habit. I think building that. And this is what we find so often even in the work that I do that people don't have a coma sation with himself that is conscious. Evan unconscious sub-conscious conversation with themselves which is naturally taking down that negative rabbit hole or living out the pattern that they built up for so many years decades, or whatever it may be. But I don't know how many people are having a conscious intentional conversation with themselves to dive deeper into a thought a belief and they've never never been taught. Absolutely. Ended up. Some I have a children's book that's relatively new. I love captain snap. And the superpower questions. It basically teaches kids to think about what they think about and to not believe every stupid thing, they think and four year olds can do this. So one quick story. Yeah. My. My last one I have four children and chloe's fifteen and she's got red hair like her mother, and when she's four she announces to her mother that she's going to get her ears Peirce that day, and you don't announce things to Tanna. And Tanna said no that they didn't have time and she had to wait until she was five and Chloe said, I can't wait till by burst into tears drama runs into my office climbs on my lab should crying crying rise out little ups going, and I'm like, what's the matter? And she said, mommy said I can't get my ears pierced on five. I'm like, okay. What's the matter? I can't wait until I'm five Mike. Is that true? Guess sit. Absolutely true. What do you mean? Are you going to die? If you don't know lie. She rolled for is at me. I didn't think that was going to happen till twelve of course, not how do you feel when you believe the thought you can't wait a mad, and I'm sad. And my ears aren't cute. Okay. Who would you be? If you didn't have that thought for years old free. Wow. So what's the opposite of I can't wait? What do you mean? I said, you know, opposites we just read a book on opposites tall and small and fat and skinny I can wait until him by. And then she got off my lap and one played with the dog. We have had drama all day long over the years or we could just teach ourselves. We don't have to believe every stupid thing. We think. Wow. I love that. And that's incredible. Ed, the children's book if you have kids there you go. What was the name of the children begin captain snout cat power question? That's really an I love that. That's incredible. And it's teaching kids. How to think about what they think about that's brilliant? That's amazing. That's something we could use to should start there before this. It would be such a technique. That's amazing. Well, I get the parents to read it to the children. So the parents will get the I Lutely absolutely, no. I think you're spot on that. We've never been told these things we can expect if anyone's listening and watching right now, we expect to know these. Things. And so we have to look alternative forms of educating ourselves. It's the only way it's absolutely the only way. Now, the next in your pneumonic is about attachment and this one fascinates me a lot. Because when I lived as a monk, we focus so much on detachment detachment. Yeah. Never never got that quite down. Yes. I'm totally attached to my wife to my work. How does I want to not be dodge at how the book does? But I totally am. And thank you being honest with us, and I've written thirteen public television specials aired a hundred thousand times across North America. And I'm sort of attached they turn out but attachment causes suffering. And so the idea what I've seen is conference is when relationships brain that causes intense emotional pain. So if we know that's true that we are a pair. Bonded species that we are a relational species. We're wired that way while you need to know how to take care of them. And so based on forty years of helping couples and helping families and helping businesses it's what what are the ingredients. And there's a cool pneumonic for attachments. It's called relating. It's the are as you're responsible for it. So you're one hundred percent responsible for that relationship. What is it? You can do today to make better is empathy seeing things from the other person's point of view, which is Brian function and autistic kids actually have damage in the mirror neuron system of the brain. Which is the part that allows me to see things from your point of view L is listening something parents are generally not very good at. So I teach them this technique called active listening, so powerful as sir. Nece ti- is time. Actual physical time. I is in choir into the negative thoughts. You have. So it's about inquiry and is noticed what you like more than what you don't. How do they train penguins at SeaWorld? They're not beating them. They're not noticing the negative. They noticed what they like. That's how you shape behavior Jesus grace and forgiveness. There's a technique on forgiveness. It's just so powerful. You know, when you hold onto hurts the person, you're poisoning. The most is yourself. When you're selling online getting your orders out can be a real pain. It's time consuming it's expensive. And there's so many carriers to choose from. How do you know you making the best choice? That's why you need to check out ship station dot com. It's the fastest easiest most affordable way to manage and ship. Your orders I like ship station because it helps me get my orders out quickly saves me money on shipping costs and keeps my community. Happy. 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Now, I know a lot of the people that watching consume my work really love hearing my perspectives on relationships and dating because online dating has completely changed. My generation's approach to love and relationships and modern romance. And on top of all of that. We see this challenge with touch minute and avoidance consistently. We have people who are scared of getting attached because they're scared of having their how broken so they avoid and pay avoidance role in a relationship. And there are those that go in full throttle and get attached. And then they're heartbroken. What would be your advice in terms of the best brain approach to building a healthy relationship? Well, it's one get your brain. Ryan. I wrote another book called the Brennan love and chapter six is how to have a first date from neuroscience perspective. I love how you can scream the other person video about this. You're going to be if this person's going. Be good partner. Not a good. Can you? Visit you can remember. So it's pay attention. Be a good listener learn their family story because they'll tell you about the history of drug and alcohol abuse or physical abuse violence. Look for attachments, and and then watch their habits and know going into it new love is a drug new love works on the nucleus accumbens or the pleasure centers of your brain. And it works just like cocaine to have to be suspicious of new love because you're not gonna see things clearly for probably three or four months. And so just know that and and be ready for it. And when people are telling you about that family history, which I think is such a great example. Like, I couldn't agree more with you. When people are telling you about their family history. How is that? Corresponding. What parallels are drawn between that and then their current habits. What are the kind of things that you sensing? So let's say someone had a childhood where the parents were was auguring or not getting along. How would that? How is that seeing trends patent wise to affect people today? Well, people do what their parents did not what they told how they told them how to be. Yes. And so you just are going to if they don't work on it. Then that's going to be a source of potential pain. And you know, if you're gonna have babies together, you really want to understand the history because you know, things do tend to run in families. Now, if you date one of. My children for more than four months. I scan do. I'm not kidding. Wow. Sort of like meet the parents yet. But worse, but this is crazy. I love this. You have a scanner at home. Like is this is there is no you haven't seen the clinic. Don't you want to linac? And he, you know, my oldest daughter married someone whose mother had paranoid schizophrenia and whose father killed himself. Now did that mean I didn't want her to marry him? No. But if he had vulnerabilities I wanted to make sure he was open to taking care of them. And and he was and he and I actually he's professor Corbin college now, and we wrote an online high school course called brain thrive by twenty-five where we teach kids to fall in love with their brain. And how to take care of rain. So that early scan setup sort of a lifelong partnership for us. In fact, I told you about my first wife, she tried to kill herself. I got divorced about eighteen years ago. And I told myself if I ever got married again, I'm scanner with we go to the next level. And when I met town, I just loved her right away. And I knew that was cocaine and I'm like two weeks after I met her. I'm like, you know, you haven't seen the clinic. Do you want to see the clinic and she was game because she's a nurse surgical ICU nurse, and she had a great brain. But by putting brain health toward the center of our relationship. It really helps us under right? When you're end, she grew up in some serious craziness. Right. So I'm not advocating looking for the perfect person because they're very few of them. But I knew with her history that she could really deal with the little bit of EM DR. It's a psychotherapy for. Pass trauma, and so helpful to her and we like never fight with each other. And and it's it's awesome. But you know, if if you go out on the first date with somebody and they have three drinks to manage their anxiety. That's a bad sign. You know, I know that was sort of in this in the new movie stars born that was you know, part of it. But that just means you're going to suffer. I'm not a fan of alcohol and marijuana. Just because of what I've seen them do the brain. Yeah, I'd love to dive into that too. And before we do I was I was gonna say the reason why I'm finding this fascinating is so many of these with subconsciously Miwa as of observing my relationship to be with my wife right now. But I never even knew about it from this perspective. So one of the first things I asked my wife about was how family and relationships with the family in my wife comes from an incredible family parents extremely respectful to each other have a wonderful relationship. She my wife. Has an incredible agent father. And I knew that that was going to play into our relationship. These were almost truths that I was looking for unknowingly without knowing that there was science to back it up. So for me. It's right says chronic fighting. Yes, a sign that something's not right in their brand. Yeah. Right. Because ultimately, you you marry someone who becomes your best friend or your worst enemy, and if you're not acting respectfully sometimes it's because the brain doesn't work hard enough and people become conflict driven as way to turn it back on. They don't know it it's not conscious. It's Pavlovian other times their brain has an OCD pattern possessive compulsive pattern. And if things don't go their way, they can't stand up. And so in order for you to get them to do what you want. You actually have to tell them the opposite of it. And it's just a slot to work. Yeah. But you can balance the brain. And I did. A study once called the couples from hell study, and we studied five hundred couples who failed marital therapy and wanted to be together and eighty five percent of them one. Or both of them were struggling, right? I mean, if people just by this really super simple idea, your brain is involved in everything you do how you think how you feel how you act how you interact, then why wouldn't a marital therapists, the first thing he or she should do is scan Brandon go is it healthy. Does it work too hard? How can I balance? But no marital therapy program teaches anything about the brain. They're all teaching these out doted day today dated methods of better communication and problem solving. But if you don't have a computer to run the software program, it's not going to work. So we're actually not dealing with the root of the issue tool for not dealing with it at all. And the issue is always in those for circles. Right. There's a biology as psychology. And so the brain excel format be biology. The rational mind is psychology attachments is the social circle, and I are inspiration is the spiritual circle. It's wire you here. Why do you care, and we are wearing out our pleasure centers in the brain by constantly hitting giving these old dopamine hits from our cellphones from social maybe a from people screaming at each other on television and were wearing out our pleasure centers, which is why depression is so high in our country. Now, let's dive into that bit more. I've I've I've boxed the marijuana and alcohol compensation which really wanna get onto shelved. If now we'll bring it back out in a bit. But this is so so important because I think too many people talking about this, and they may not have the actuates petits. On the inside that you do would you mean by pleasure centers being worn out? What does that actually mean? An how is that leading to depression? How is that leading to the challenges we see in society? So you have these two areas deep in your brain. They're part of a big group of cells called the basil ganglion within them or called the nucleus accumbens. And when you push on them in you, push on them with the neural transmitter dopamine. You feel good, you know, sort of like the jackpot that I said when I first started doing scans. It's like I'd love this. I love it. When people get well, I have meaning I purpose. My education is working to benefit these people well cocaine does that to no I'd love that pronography. Can do it scary movie? Can do it jumping out of an airplane? Can do it and the more you do it the more it begins to wear out your pleasure centers? So it takes more and more in order. To get the same response. And so in feel better fast and make it last. I talk about the dopamine dumb versus the dopamine, drip. Right. So you want to drip dopamine onto your nucleus accumbens? So that way keeps them stimulated in happy as opposed to the dump the scary movie pornography cocaine because if you hit them too often, and interestingly people who are base, Than's doesn't react like other people. It's sluggish it's slow to react than if you're at a healthy way because those really high calorie high sugar, high fat foods when it hits it over and over with dopamine it just begins to wear them out. So you need more and more put into feel anything at all. And you know, having treated many drug addicts through the years is the drug addicts tell you initially the drugs made the village. Awesome. And then they use the drugs to prevent the depression. So just so they would attempt to feel normal. But then, you know, the addiction cycle kicked in and they were hooked. So you wanna always attacked your pleasure centers. And with social media. I did a show with Dr ause on Tinder, and you know, swipe left swipe ride and for the person who is getting lots of positive responses is Brian actually looked happier. But many of the other ones their brain started to look to press when they weren't getting the response they had hoped for. Yeah. I love that you brought that up. I saw that highly recommended you can go and check it out with Doug to ause. Dr Ayman, I highly recommend it was brilliant. And it's so fun to see it because what's the difference, then between the dopamine dumped, the dopamine drip, and then pups because with you having said what you said that when you were. To heal people. Or you swore that breakthrough. We also get it when I live my purpose, and I create some content or I see a breakthrough for someone through the work that I'm doing what's the difference between that you're getting this constant, drip. That keeps your pleasure centers, healthy, right? Let's you're not doing anything. That's damaging right them can keep it going on and on but say, for example, you're rockstar, and you get the high from being on stage over and over again, you don't feel right because too much dopamine is hit your nucleus accumbens. And I have a prayer for the young stars. I see is dear God, please don't allow me to be famous before my frontal lobes have developed and your frontal lobes really don't develop in girls until they're about twenty five boys until they're about twenty eight. So you see? See why all these young stars get into so much trouble because they don't have the fourth lot the judgment the impulse control all prefrontal cortex stuff to manage their nucleus accumbens. And so there's this think of it as the elephant in the writer, so your pleasure centers, really the elephant. I mean, drives you towards whatever behavior. The prefrontal cortex is the writer, and it directs you. So when the writer is inefficient or ineffective or it's not there. It just ruins your life. So you you need a strong prefrontal cortex to break your pleasure centers or you end up doing all sorts of completely stupid things. Wow. That's amazing. And for women. It's twenty five on average men. It's twenty eight that sums up. So I I never recommend would never let my children go too far from home to go to college. Because they're right in the middle of massive brain development, the most important brain development occurs between about fifteen and twenty five and people think, oh, it's all from zeroed. It's like you're prefrontal cortex is getting Mylan aided which means it's really developing from fifteen to twenty five. Yeah. The reason why this is so KARN from me right now is I've been speaking lot with dissociable media platforms of YouTube, Instagram and Facebook because even a lot of creators who are extremely young most of the younger than me to as create to myself, a lot of creators are going through burnout and going through feelings of depression and anxiety because of having had a rocketed accelerated fame early on in life and be having to keep up with the pace of social media as a creator to continue to create at that level. So then pleasure centers are worn out when they don't have frontal lobe. Cbs to modulated, but what Judah them in you, spend time meditating and really developing your brain. We haven't talked about that. But I've actually published three studies on cuddling a yoga meditation called Cureton Cree, and it activated the prefrontal cortex and calm down the limbic or the emotional brain. So it had that very nice, balancing a fact, and it's like a twelve minute adaptation, right? This isn't hard or my favorite meditation. A loving kindness meditation developing practices to balance your brain, it should just be part of school. But unfortunately, you know, school really hasn't been redesigned one hundred ten years, and I often think of Paul Simon song coda chrome which starts off with when I think back on all the crap I learned in high school. It's a wonder I can think at all. And that's why we developed our high. School cores because come on. It's like teach them practical things like how to manage the organ that's going to run everything in their life. Absolutely. And then okay now now you've got me. Now, you've got me thinking of a million things. The next next thing was around that. So the research that you've done a meditation in the brain what what are the specifics? Are you say cute in create Collini, yoga, what would the direct a bit more detail around the direct impacts have done that attention on the brain what was actually happening? So we did three studies on it. And the first study what we found activation of the prefrontal cortex. And we're not the only one they've done of studies at the university of Wisconsin and calming of the emotional brand. It also dropped activity in the parietal lobes. That's talk back part of your brain. That's sort of where you sense space and time so it during that time, the twelve minutes seems like it actually went by about three no things become time. Timeless. And then we did another study at the university of Pennsylvania and found that people who did it for eight weeks to months had stronger resting frontal lobe function, and that's like the holy grail of Brighton. Science is if you want anything you want big fat frontal lobes, that's what makes us human thirty percent of the human brain is the prefrontal cortex eleven percent of the chimpanzee. Brian seven percent of your dog's brain three percent of the cats. Brian, right. This is the part of us that makes us human. And it's called the executive part of the brain. Because it's about focus and more thought and judgment an impulse control an organization, planning empathy learning from the mistakes you make so it's where you play chess. It's where you're not just thinking about the moment. Oh, I can take your ruck. It's where your thing can. Five steps a had which is how we have survive as a species, we just don't we don't have to be instinct, like the squirrel weaken plan, not just for this winter, but for ten forward, and when you're prefrontal cortex is damage, you you're just in the moment and people go, but I wanna be, you know, and and a lot of people love the book the power of now in actually love the book. But I hate the title because if you're always in the power of now, you're screwed because you need to be now and later, which is why the title of the book feel better fast at making it last yet is so important people are too into feel better now, but not later. Yeah. And let's dive into that to this is if you're listening watching these right now, if you want just listening Yukon, see my face, I'm blown away. I'm I'm in all because I feel like this so many cliches and not the right word. But. So many things that are thrown about in this world right now about these themes and topics and we take them as reality. But then getting to sit with you. And I almost feel like now, I need to go and buy all your books and read all of them, not just this one that's genuine now. I feel right now look I'm about to walk out here and ask my team to order every single wannabe books. And I feel like I have to sit with them for for weeks because I feel like you're giving me such a refreshing perspective on so many things that I feel I know subconsciously things that I've known without the backing of science, but to hear that from your perspective is fascinating. One of the big ones for me is puppets is such a big part of my life. I became a monk because it purpose. I left being among because the purpose a married my wife because pup us I do what I'm doing right now with you. Because if meaning and purpose is purpose critical to happiness in life will can someone be happy without a you know, they probably can. It's just a heck of a lot easier too with the happy with purpose. Because we are relational species and purpose can take a number of forms. It can be helping other people it can be developing personal skills. Like, I have a ping pong coach because I love playing it keeps my brain young. It makes me happy or it can be doing something massively important orc my favorite book, or at least it's in the top five is man's search for meaning by Viktor Frankl. Absolutely. And he was younger than Freud, but they were competitors. In the sense that for it in psychoanalysis was very powerful in psychiatry, but he developed a kind of therapy around logos therapy or meaning therapy, and I'd so much rather talk to my patients about meaning than their love relationship with their mother, right? That just it just never went anywhere with me in that. Old thing. But getting people into why you wanna be well, why are you on the planet? What is your deepest sense of purpose and too often in the younger generation, nobody's asked them that question. And so now, they go why wanna be Jeff Bezos? And I want to be the richest person in the world. And as soon as you do that you set yourself up to fall, right? And that is one of the origin thoughts of depression. And this is what the bad part of social media. Is you start comparing yourself to people that are actually not completely real? And because you can't live up you feel less than and then that drives depression along with. Oh, by the way, you're eating crap. You have low vitamin D level your hormones aren't good because of the toxins. Your mother toxic lotion, your mother's put on your. Body. Right. I mean, it's more complicated than that. But whenever you compare yourself. You know, I could go we'll I haven't won a Nobel prize. So my life is meaningless on. That's just nuts. Right. The person who won the Nobel prizes. Kaya trie. Did it for prefrontal lobotomies? Right. Putting an ice pick up above your eyes, and wiping out your frontal lobes, so it's not I'm not pining for the Nobel prize. Right. The thing that gives me joy. And meaning purposes not being better than other people. It's being the best I can be an having the most meaningful existence. I learned that. So when I was in college, I was generally the top student in my class, but I helped everybody else I was never about. I need to be better than you. I wanted us both to be our best. And by the way, if I helped you study, it's reinforcing the information. For me. So Hans selye was very famous stress researcher. And he said term he called ego is stick altruism. It's mean when I help you also helping me. Yeah. Absolutely. And is this thing in the brain is completely selfless altruism. Like does the opposite of that exist? And what does that feeling look like now, I don't know. There's a phrase say often is were all out for ourselves. It's just the more sophisticated. You are the harder. It is to tell. I recently adopted. My two nieces got taken by child protective services in Oregon into foster care, which sent me. I know you talked about vulnerability it's sent me into a panic. And I'm like, no, I'm not okay with us. But my wife grew up in a home where there was. A lot of addiction. So I'm rescuing the kids, and she's like, no, I don't wanna be part of that world. And so one of our very few fights. And so what we agreed to do is wrap services around their mother. My wife's half sister. And then within five months kids ratify Auster care now we care for them and people go. Oh, well, that's so kind of you, and it is kind, but it's awesome for me. Right. When I see their report cards, and they're getting straight as when I see them fall in love with their brains that turns on the dopamine dripping to my nucleus accumbens. And you know, I see them do award. Yes. Okay. So that's dopamine dumb. But you don't want to many of them, right? It's it's meaningful purposeful. But it's a huge blessing. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. That one's I've always fascinated by is what is of listeners. And what is the definition of selflessness? Because I actually don't think it's I don't think it's bad. And I think you agree from what you just said. I don't think it's bad to want to do good for others. And and feel good about it. But oh much. We sometimes look at that in the negative way and say, oh, well, you're only doing it to help yourself. Always gonna be, you know, I think CNN and FOX have done more to promote mental illness with constant negativity fighting looking for something to be wrong. And then they train the minds of the millions of people who watch to look for what is wrong, which is a bad mental discipline rather than looking for. What is right? Absolutely, absolutely. I want to go back in pickup off the shelf. The exciting topic you brought up because I feel let's talk about that. Because I I have some very similar views to you. But I want to hear your perspective around marijuana and alcohol specifically marijuana. We're in LA right now and Oviously it's legalized and pot dispensary. Absolutely Mott's of corners. You can go. Yeah. You can go. So I have no dog in this fight. In fact, I make more money if you smoke pot than if you don't smoke pot. You are way more likely to come see me and people just don't understand the research of all will there's not enough research now marijuana increases the risk of psychosis four hundred and fifty percent if teenagers start smoking pot that is not a good thing. And the reason I sort of turn negative on. It was I've done one hundred and fifty thousand spec scans back looks at blood flow and activity. It makes the brain look toxic. It does I published a study in the journal of Alzheimer's disease on thousand pot smokers every area of their brain was lower. And then just a few months ago. I published the world's largest imaging study on sixty two thousand four hundred fifty four scans on how the brain ages. So we looked at the brain from nine months to one hundred and five and it's got fascinating aging patterns like it's not really done until about twenty five girls and twenty eight boys, and then we lucked, well, what are the factors that exceleron aging on the top of the list with schizophrenia if you have schizophrenia, your brain looks worse than everybody else. The second worse thing was marijuana was worse than smoking. It was worse than alcohol on not a fan. And I see so many people go, but I feel better concentrate better. I'm more creative. And I'm like, there's so many other ways to do it. The don't have a potentially toxic impact. On your brain. Now having said that I'm a huge fan. And I think it should be legal. You really gonna put potheads in jail. You're gonna sleep deprive them chronically stressed them. Let them hang out with people who do bad things. That's insane. They're really separate issues. Yeah. Right. It's not glamorize the use lamb rise in everybody thinks in CBD. Now is like they're giving it to their dog for goodness sake. And I worry, you know, cocaine used to be in Coca-Cola. Yeah. And opiates used to be the antidepressant and win Xanax came out onto the market was called mommy's little helper and all of those things have caused disasters in our country. And we're we're setting ourselves up again, it's sort of like twenty years ago alcohol was a health food. Right. I gotta have my two glasses of wine a day because it's good for my heart. But we clearly know now. Now, it's related to seven different kinds of cancer. Even if you're only mild to moderate drinking, any drinking shows an increased risk for cancer. So I don't smoke pot and I don't drink now. My wife drinks like two or three glasses of wine a month where when I first met her she drank considerably more than that never a problem. But I don't want it to have a negative impact on her help. And you've only had it. There we go. Then after my perspective. I we're gonna get haters. No. But I'm so glad no know, but I'm glad we went. I mean who better to speak to than someone who's looking at the direct effect. And it comes back to that same point that you brought up earlier on. If I go take that one back of the shelf of now versus now and later and it comes back to that because I experimented with drugs throughout my teens. Absolutely everything under the sun. Never got addicted. Never did something consistent enough. But always wanted to take one two tries of everything. And then. Gave it all up at eighteen and never been. I haven't drank alcohol or smoked anything take anything. It seems like you're missing some not at all not at all. I feel amazing. And I get to be creative and my whole life is creative. And I get to travel the world, and and people are well if I go party, I'm anxious. Learn how to deal with the anxiety rather than have to Matic eight anxiety because that's now but not later. Yeah. And you know, and when you're around, and you go to a party where there are a lot of people drinking, you know, for me, I generally just leave because they're sort of stupid, and they're like saying things, it's like did you really say that so rude. Why would you say that because it drops frontal lobe function, and it drops cerebellar function and your Sarah Bohm's, major processing organ in your brain. And I wanna be slow. Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is what we're saying. I'm not I'm not judging anyone who does either of these things, and I'm not criticizing anyone. It's just making yourself aware just becoming more aware. And that's that's what I that's why I asked the question not to judge anyone to criticize anyone because I think I'm better than anyone from not having done it just to be aware. And when I was young the thing that made me become aware was my friend. And I went to see his aunt who happened to be a heroin addict. And she had a fit in front of us. And that was the dams like I cannot do this any longer because actually seeing someone who is a dick to heroin have a fit in front of me was femme on telling me than any study will any research, whatever it was just seen not experiencing that it was just like, okay, I need to stop messing around in this space. So I was at the White House last year about this time all of my liberal friends. You really go to the White House. And I'm like, it's the executive branch of government. And we were asked me to help them think about the issue of the opiate epidemic and prison reform. And so I was really honored, of course. And my. Impulse was we need to develop a national brain health program to teach people to fall in love with their reigns. And that's why you don't drink or that's why you don't do drugs because you love your rain. And you want it to be healthy. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and congratulations, by the way. That's incredible and unhappy that people like yourself for being involved in those discussions and decisions. Because like you said again, if you don't see it. I mean, how can you? Tell anyone want to do in lazing a wanted to start touching on a specific area that I had here was around. The I in the new monarch his inspiration. And I wanted to talk about why is it that inspiration is often. So short lived instead of long lasting, like we've we feel like even on social media people watch video, and they feel inspired people. Hear a speech, and they feel inspired and people even hit this podcast today, and they'll feel inspired. But then the change doesn't happen. There's no application there's practice. Why is that inspiration short lived, and how do you make inspiration loss into action -plication his after turn them into habits, and because we're habitual creatures? And if you can turn the good things, and so, you know, it's the smallest thing I can do today that will make the biggest difference start every day with today is going to be a great day. Right. What one purposeful thing will I do today, and you know, people spend more time planning their vacations then plan. In their lives. This is a little odd. And so I love everyone to do the one page miracle. That's in the book is so what do I want in my relationship? So for example, with my wife, I wanna kind caring loving supportive passionate relationship. I always want that. I don't know. He's feel like that. Yeah. Right. But if I get my eyes on that when I get that rude thought that comes into my head. I just filter it with will this get you what you want. And no, it won't get me what I want. So I inhibiting. Now. How can I inhibits thoughts? Well, if I'm drinking, I'm less likely to inhibit it from smoking pot them less likely to inhibited by having slapped a molest likely to inhibit it. And so it's the brain health habits. It's then the clear. Clear direction, I want this. And so while then how do I get that? And that's where begin to break free of the bad habits. Plus, I published two studies that showed as your weight goes up the physical size function of your brain goes down. So you need to be a little bit horrified by you know, I always think with motivation is no what you want. But also be clear with what you don't want. Because pain is actually a bigger motivator for people. Then pleasure often under percent. And that's why I love about this book. I love how strategic the bouquets and a practical it is. And that's when I was speaking to earlier, I love the fact that there are activities exercises questions that people can use to reflect on themselves in the book. And that's unique because often we find that when when books have ridden from a medical perspective it can be quite hard to digest. Whereas when I was reading through this. It didn't feel that way tool. So anyone who's watching and listening right now, if you're looking for tools tips, practical habits to actually breakthrough then please please go and get the book because it's going to help you do that. So just just thanking you factually having gone through that go into that state. So now, we finish every interview I will ask you if there's anything I've missed, but we do finish every interview with what I call the final five, which is my final five questions usually rapid fire. Quick fire in the final five minutes. So I have yours here if they're not rapid fire. I'm not upset because I think your insights beyond one two three words, and I'm okay with that the first question, I have which which is from the book, but I loved it was what is the quickest way to break a panic attack. So for simple things, the first thing is brave gonna take a big breath and take lease twice as long to blow it out that'll trigger a pair sympathetic response in your body to calm you down. The next thing is what are you thinking right at? Down because often fortune telling negative thoughts, Dr panic attack your predicting the worst possible thing. And then your brain is just masterful at making it worse. So killing the and the third thing is don't leave. If you're starting to have panic attack at work don't leave because if you leave the panic will now start to control you, and it could actually turn into something called a Gora phobia where you can't even leave your home because you're worried you're going to have a panic attack. And then the fourth thing of all those things aren't working. There's some simple supplements that can be really helpful the inning Gabba ushwyn gone huge fan of things like that to just help. Calm you down and talk about them in the book. Absolutely amazing. Great piece of advice. Love that. Second question is what are the simplest food. We can add to diets to nourish our brain, colorful, brutes and vegetables, so not schedules. When I say colorful. Or eminem's? No, no, no. But try when you're in the produce department to pick as many colors as you can because they're loaded with antioxidants, also scratch the low fat diet because sixty percent of the solid weight of your brain is fat of a KADO 's are God's butter a huge fan of wild fish the societies. The most fish actually have the lowest incidence of depression, amazing, great advice as succinct as well. I'm impressed. This is brilliant. That question is what's weight is ego? Sit all of this, and how much have you studied ego at if at like Freud's concept of it ego and superego, and I really think them about prefrontal cortex. So when you're prefrontal cortex is Lau or your young it's just not developed. That's the child in you that take. Over and in our society, the four year old rules, you know, whether it's the White House or congress or the media, or, you know, just everyday society, it's where way to impulsive and their way too, many temper tantrums going on the ego is really healthy frontal lobe function. So you're twenty eight or forty and you're good to your brain. And helps you make good decisions and be thoughtful this super ego. If its concept is really when you're frontal were too hard, and you get your rigid, your inflexible and your harsh to yourself and to others, so balance, your brain balanced ego, in a good way brilliant question on before you brought up slightly earlier. What's your best advice for anyone who has party in Zaire, T, all social enzyme? Forty in those kind of seconds. So it's so common. It's actually one of the most common anxieties on the planet. And it's why people drink why people do drugs because they feel uncomfortable around other people, and I think you'll like this learning how to manage your anxiety through things like hypnosis guided imagery, meditation, it just should be part of everything we do along with learning. How to not believe every stupid thought you have in the book, I have one of my favorite roles. It's called the eighteen forty sixty role which says when you're eighteen you worry about what everybody's thinking of you. And when you're forty you don't give a damn what anybody thinks about you. And when you're sixty realize nobody has been thinking about you at full people spend their days worrying and thinking about them sell. Not you. So it's really hard for my paranoid schizophrenics to get this guns up because they think the whole world revolves around them, and it just doesn't and if you can get it that a negative look from someone else may mean nothing more than they are constipated. You don't know and other people are anxious to and so often if you're at a party in new feeling anxious go, you know, I just feel anxious. Sometimes you know, and the other person's likely to go. Oh, you know, I'm that way too. And then all of a sudden, everybody's anxiety goes down when you believe you have to present yourself as that perfect person. Nobody can relate to you because. Nobody's perfect. Yeah. So Tra that's great piece of advice as long as soon as you open up and say, hey, I'm struggling with this. Someone else has the permission to say that to absolutely I love that and fifth. And final question was actually around when we spoke about before. Which was about what I'm fascinated by you. And when we spoke earlier as well as your ability to bring together signs, and spirituality your ability to understand both dimensions. And and both approaches to understanding our human cells and condition and you spoke about earlier to my death. And I'd love you to reach way that story that we were speaking about earlier and just elaborate more on on what you have found in terms of all your studies, etc. Through spirituality coming up. We are all spiritual beings, and as the sky tryst, if I don't understand your deepest sense of meaning and purpose while you believe you're on the planet, and what happens to your soul after you die. Then I don't really understand all of you, which is Michael. And so I told you before last week I had a friend that died, and he told. His partner that she had to let him go because he's been invited. And where he's going. He's seen and it's beautiful and as one thousand nine hundred seventy seven I read a book called life after life, by moody. And it was about people who had near death experiences. And it gave me a really deep sense of peace that I don't believe I'm here by random chance. Now, I know a lot of my science friends, you know, they're one hundred percent on evolution enroll here by random chance. They just forget the second law of physics. The second law physics is entropy things go from order to disorder in the universe. They don't go from disorder to order, and I'm sorry. I have a brand new granddaughter. And I don't think havens here by random chance. It just it makes I think it actually takes more faith to believe we're here without. Any creative design or intelligent design than to believe that our interaction today happened out of randomness. I love that perspective. It definitely my senses to think things are undesired end is actually generally pushing off eighth much further. I couldn't agree more. That's really well said really beautifully said. Daniel is been absolutely incredible. I've learned so much today. I genuinely mean this, and I'm not lying as soon as I woke out of this room. I'm gonna ask my team to that. Every single one of your books. I feel like I'm gonna dive deep into all of them. And I feel like I want to continue the conversation offline and back on the podcast anytime you like because I can only think that anyone is watched and listened to this today's been benefited in some way, and I know that when they go and buy the book, they'll be benefited even big away. So I highly recommend it is the anything that. I haven't touched on that. You really feel like I should have asked you could've asked you would've asked you end. And you'd like to touch on the, you know, the only. Two things. Yeah. I finished the book with a chapter on love that you don't do the right thing because you should. You do the right thing because you love yourself. And and I've just thought more and more one of my other books is called the brain warriors way because my wife, and I wrote it together. And we just believe we're in a war for the health of our brain Alzheimer's is expected to triple thirty six percent of teenage girls suffer from depression that if you love yourself, and you love your planet, and you love your country, and you love your world that ultimately doing the right thing is not because you should do it. But because of love, and if you do it out of love, it's just so much easier to do. The other thing just to touch on for second. Isn't it? Before we get it is there another thing separate is that different way. Can we go into the one? You just mentioned because I'm fascinated by two in in the Vate is that I studied as among talks about three types of motivation, and the lowest motivation is ignorance or fear the middle motivation is due -til obligation or responsibility, or because you have to and the highest motivation is love as you rightly said. So I couldn't agree more. Do you think though that that begs the question that the biggest challenge we won't have is that we don't love ourselves? We don't love our brain. Like, we we just wish so inundated with trying to be that which we're not or letting the opinions of others affect how we are and our self belief, and that's actually what's affecting our brain health. The most is we're not looking at through the lens your your recommending suggesting I think that's exactly right. And you know, when I turned fifty my doctor wanted me to have a colonoscopy. I asked him why didn't wanna look at my brain wasn't the other end just. As important. Mo we don't screen it. We don't look at it. And ultimately, we don't love it. You can't let it hit a soccer ball with their head and say you love that child or that child's brand it's just not possible. When you understand the physics of it. And I've hated sucking boys were having one of them's flashed before my eyes. I love soccer. I'm a huge huge foot. We'll find the. Yeah. Because if I tell because I have done two hundred and twenty-five NFL players. I mean all fame players like Terry Bradshaw. And if you're gonna do it 'cause we're always going to have dangerous jobs. That's a dangerous job. If you're going to do it, you should be putting your brain in a healing environment. All the way along not just when you retire. See that's like doesn't make any sense because if you're gonna play and one of my players signed a forty two million dollar contract. So he's going to play you have to be rehabilitating all along because you'll actually be a better player. Yes. Absolutely. And the second and you're going to often then I stopped to the second one is we had just began to talk about a book. I'm just starting to write called the end of mental illness. Yes, let's get so tired of the stigma attached to mental health problems. And these in fact, aren't mental health problems their brain health problems, get your brain, writing and your mind will follow. And I just think we have to completely break the paradigm and create a new she wishes. Stress depression, anxiety of these brain, health, rain, and then to problems, and when you get your brain right than you realize I have to learn how to manage stress because stress actually shrinks the major memory center in my brain, which is gonna make me more stress. If I can't remember what I'm supposed to do that depression, clearly is a brain health problem, and there's not one form of depression. And that's the problem. You can go to your doctor and eighty five percent of psychiatric drugs prescribed by non-psychiatric physician or nurse practitioners or your physician assistant. I'm depress. So they give you let's run size fits and one size fits all. When you look at the scans of depress, people fairly seven, different kinds and one yes can help this pattern, but will actually make that pattern worse. And so all of these medications have blackbox warnings. Because. Hurt people, and we can just do so much better and coming here. I saw someone on Hollywood and Bine who was clearly psychotic. They were talking to themselves. They're having this whole conversation. And I'm thinking to myself, I wonder if he had a brain injury. I wonder if he has an infection in his brain lime disease is rampant in this country for causing psychosis. I wonder if his bodies inflamed and so easy to call them. Crazy easy to give him an antipsychotic that he won't take. 'cause it'll make him feel bad the harder question. But the better question is why is he that way? And if I've balanced his brain will it help bounces life and my experience, the answer's yes, I've seen mazing. Thank you so much Daniel. Thank you to everyone. Who's what's and listen. Remember, you can get the book feel better fast. And may get lost. Go. Get it right now, if you fascinated by this conversation, we literally just scratched the surface of what this book really takes into account. Make sure you're going get if you like this conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. And I feel like we need to do another ten because I'd love to dive into all of the different types of clients you've worked with and hear the stories about how you specifically worked with them with their specific challenges to overcome them. So I think this is the first of many, hopefully, and I'm sure all of you watching and listening will agree, but Denning thank you so much for taking the time. So. So being with you again, really appreciate it. Thank you so much. You're maisy. Thank you so much for listening through to the end of that episode. I hope you're going to shed this all across social media. Let people know that you subscribed to on purpose. Let me know posted tell me what a difference it's making in your life. I would love to see your thoughts. I can't wait for this incredibly conscious community where creating of purposeful people your now a part of the tribe part of the squad. Thank you for being here. I can't wait to shed a next episode with you.

Brian Eno Dr Daniel g Ayman cocaine dopamine nucleus accumbens depression US professor Freud New York Times writer marijuana Frank Zayed Bray Oregon gene Specter Masan
Why We Crave

The goop Podcast

44:18 min | 1 year ago

Why We Crave

"Don't hold anything too tightly. Just wish for it want it. Let it come from the intention of real truth for you and then let it go the mayor unbound it's limitless but we will use words to limit ourselves when people stop believing that somebody's got your back or Superman's coming we turn to ourselves and house where you become empowered. Courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop podcast bringing together thought leaders culture changers creatives founders and CEOS scientists doctors healers and seekers here to start conversations because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world today is no exception a letter Leesville as fill you in on her extraordinary guest all right over to a lease Jetson Burr is a psychiatrist and addiction expert that specializes in mindfulness and Niro feedback techniques to help treat substance abuse and eating disorders. He is the founder of Clare Toss Mind Sciences an organization that combines mindfulness and near feedback techniques his the creator of several apps that are designed to help change bad habits and Judson is also the author of the craving mind all about where are addictions actions come from and how we can break them. He puts a bluntly as human. Were all addicts in some capacity anyway. The meaning of addiction isn't just talking about the big ones like drugs and alcohol it can be food it can be cigarettes. It can be too much screen time we talk about how stress anxiety anger all drive toward bad patterns to coming to cravings and ultimately our own addictions mostly. He tells us to be curious about our cravings to understand ourselves more deeply and change the habits that hold us back so in a moment that we're having a craving we can actually flip the valence from unpleasant craving to pleasant curiosity simply by being curious about the craving boom mind hack right there <music>. Let's cut to my chat with Judd Bir. It's a thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me in a nutshell our we all addicts. Yes yeah seems that way. I have to say that that obviously I'm aware of addiction might adds a doctor. He loves to talk about how everyone's an alcoholic in his own estimation more or less. It's very annoying but I'd never actually read the criteria for what addiction is us and in the context of your book craving mind you sort of put it in there in terms of smartphone use yeah and I was a little taken aback by my own results really is that is that the most is at the addiction of the time these times besides opioids I would say there are many and that's one. That's an emerging addiction that I think a lot of people aren't talking about absolutely and it's interesting because I so so I started learning this simple definition of addiction. When I was in residency training at Yale at the time I learned this definition continued use despite adverse consequences which seems really simple and I was working with a bunch of folks with addictions ends you know all sorts of the classic addictions alcohol cocaine heroin those types of things yet? I had it just lightbulb moment where wait a minute continued use. Despite adverse consequences has look in the mirror. Wait a minute <hes> so I could just start listing off my own addictions. You know wait a minute. I'm addicted to exercise continues. Despite adverse consequences I you know addicted to thinking addicted to romantic love in all of this stuff just started unfolding from this simple definition permission and this is where this I started thinking how we all have these addiction so shopping gaming all of this type of all of these types of things and then there was even deeper level where it's like well. These are actually driven by something as I got to patients as I got to know how the mind works a little bit more started seeing these are driven by things like stress and anxiety and loneliness so for example you know a lot of folks eat because they're stressed out or are there lonely so ironically turned to social media which tends to make people more yes the the research showing that and so this deeper level were where these things like stress and anxiety and and anger anger even were driving habits. I started just see how broad this was like. We're all addicted and seems like it could almost be like that. The book is the craving mind because I think everyone can relate you might have these addictive moments sense where you're dislike standing over the sink pummeling that pint of ice cream or just like I've done that it's it's bizarre. It's not my I'm not. It's not my normal pattern but I think we all have those moments when you're like. Why am I still doing this? This is disgusting. But what point do you think it's like those moments then become pattern that done become your life on alcohol or your life on twitter or on the name it I think that's when when they become so ingrained that we are and it comes back to the definition. We're doing them despite adverse consequences and often. We're not even aware of it so it's insidious so we're we're. Oh it's it's great. I'm going to check my twitter counter. Whatever and then eventually you know I remember I was training somebody resin psychiatrist who said that she woke up one time so she had she'd read my book and was was using one of our APPS as a way to start to learn mindfulness and she said I woke up my my kids were at the dinner table eating dinner and I was standing away from the dinner table locked onto my news feed and she just woke up to that moment with this continued use despite adverse consequences so for her it was this news feed but she hadn't noticed it because it was so insidious <hes> until she was not having dinner with her family right and you in the book you talk about how in working with with hardcore addicts typically who then sort of resort to like caffeine and and nicotine right they're getting off of harder drugs like those tend to be the things that take cold that they can't really can't shake because they don't have major consequences and says right especially immediate right so think about and I think of this and a lot of my patients describe it this way it's kind of like this comfort food so to speak cigarettes in particular smoking and a lot of them had started smoking <hes> way before they started using other drugs so on average of folks tend to start smoking age of thirteen? Let's The folks that I've treated. I know it's crazy and so they start smoking and then they start adding in these other drugs and so by the time they're ready to so they can and you ready to quit the other drugs. They're like well. At least I've got smoking as a weight as this comfort to help help me with something and the Nicotine Jackson a little bit of dopamine and so it helps in the brain a little bit and then when they're ready to quit smoking so for example at a guy who'd I've been smoking forty years and so on average he'd been reinforcing that habit loop around smoking about two hundred ninety three thousand times so that level of reinforcement assessment is really hard to shake especially because we don't get cancer the first time we smoke a cigarette otherwise nobody would smoke so it's you know we think oh well. I'm smoking. I learned to smoke when I'm a teenager because it's cool or whatever and then and we never think about the consequences like Oh fifty years down the road I could get cancer. I could get emphysema or something like that terrible at that so and I was funny like that. I am not a smoker because my dad's pulmonologist like that and motorcycles were the things that that I was forbidden to do but everything else was on the table which was kind of wives but the moment where you talk about how apparent one successful smoking deterrent when parents catch their kids is to make them smoke ten cigarettes in a row until until they're physically ill right because then the brain knows it's. It's toxic so like what are the. What is that feedback loop? That's so habit-forming well. It's interesting because this all of this is so fast so let's start with that one but this one's interesting testing because it was actually setup to help survive and so we can break onto its simplest elements that you need three things you need a trigger need a behavior and a result or in brain speak a reward so in in the old days when we had to remember where food was we would be looking around hunger would be that triggers signal. We find some food. We'd eat it. That'd be that behavior and then as we ate the food we get this dopamine hit in our brain that says remember what you eight where you found it so there's those three three things and so it's actually set up as as a way to help us remember where food is same mechanisms also used to help us avoid danger right. You see the Sabertooth Tiger you run away. You live to tell the tail so to speak so that process is very very very well known very old. It's actually evolutionary conserved all the way back to the sea slug right twenty thousand neurons sea slug learns the same way that humans learn so in that's that's the the raw material that we're talking about here yet. In Modern Day when food is plentiful right we go out and we were stressed out so there's the trigger we eat some food. Let's see cupcakes chocolate or whatever and we feel better and our brain learns in the same way yet. It's learning not because it's hungry but because it's trying to avoid something unpleasant I eat some chocolate. I feel better so I was very excited. When I saw rain in the book in fact I took pictures of it and sent it to many people I know because one of the other things about cigarettes it's in particular is that now with vaping being an option there even fewer consequences and it seems to be even more addictive so I was like this is this is proven right like you studied? You put this into clinical trials against sort of the standard. Yes standard-bearer like how to quit smoking. Yes so we compared mindfulness training to gold standard treatment in this case. The American Lung Association has a treatment called freedom from smoking. It's a cognitive based therapy and you know smoking being one of the hardest addictions to quit. There's a couple of gold standard treatments out there interestingly the likelihood that people's going to people are GonNa stay quit having quit. Smoking is five percent at the end of ear. So our track record is not that great and it's it's really interesting that we've standardly gone to things like willpower based treatments because our thinking mind says oh come in and save the day and we think Oh yeah <hes> willpower if I only had a little more willpower than I would. Whatever if willpower really worked we wouldn't do any of these crazy things that we're doing time? We'd quit smoking. We wouldn't overeat we wouldn't get caught up in worry habit loops so the willpower piece we were pitting mindfulness training directly against willpower because mindfulness works in a very different way it actually so there's good data showing that willpower gets depleted over time so finite amount so that Roy Bow Meister at Florida state and a lot of work showing they call ego depletion as you go through the day as we get tired Tartu resist urges which is why we're in the in the kitchen at night writing ice cream not in the morning right so in that case we really wanted to see how does mindfulness training compared to willpower and the idea is we're bringing in awareness and kind of rubbing our noses in what the actual behavior is because the key is that reward based learning is based on rewards. It's not based on the behavior itself and so we can't just say stop the behavior but we can say well. How rewarding is this? I'll give you an example from somebody in our smoking study who you basically said pay attention as she was smoking so he said don't tell yourself to quit smoking because that's what all these folks come into do said just smoke. They looked like crazy. I you know like I came here to quit smoking. You're telling me to smoke and we said we'll just Adwan twist to this pay attention when you smoke and see what it's like and this person said it smells like stinky cheese and tastes like chemicals yuck yeah so that was a profound moment for her because she saw from her own direct act experience that smoking actually was very good and so she didn't have to convince her mind to not smoke she was becoming disenchant so she moved from her thinking brain or thinking mind down to her feeling body and her feeling body was saying dude. This is not so good. Don't do this and we're not excited to do something. It's a lot easier not to do it in the futures compared to trying to force ourselves not to do it right so that so it is so the acronym rain is recognize right because you know it worked at a little bit so recognize recognize allow a allow is stands for investigate and end stands for note and we can walk to reach of those watching them okay so if were stuck so think of that habit loop trigger behavior reward if we're stuck on autopilot. We're just spinning that loop away or loss. We're not gonNA get anywhere so the first step is to recognize Oh. I'm cotton this habit loop. That's are recognized and we can apply recognize specific things like for smoking or for eating. Oh that's a craving or if we're anxious for example we're worrying. We can recognize Oh. I'm caught in worry thinking right arm board or I'm bored right boards great one on board. I'm GONNA go eat. I'M GONNA smoke whatever I'M GONNA check my social media right so our stands for recognize ace stands for allow so for working with cravings in this is where the willpower piece is comes in often. Here's a craving the comes up and we're like Oh sh like I don't want this to be here so we push it away or we try to distract ourselves and that only works until it stops working right so so instead of pushing away which takes energy in itself we just invited in that's really one of the key elements of mindfulness is being with whatever is arising so that's the allow piece allow it to be here and importantly. We can't investigate what's happening. If it's like way over there you know we can't say hey craving you. Stay over that won't be over here. We'll be cool right. We'll just know that doesn't work that way. If we turn toward it we can actually get close and that's where the icons in investigate and I think of this is curiosity. So can you tell me this what feels better a craving or curiosity curiosities my favorite state of being no kidding. We have lots of talking about here because mine too so in a moment that we're having a craving we can actually flip the valence from unpleasant craving to pleasant curiosity simply by being curious about the craving boom mind hack right there right there were flipping from unpleasant to pleasant so we get curious about the craving and and I like to think I like to simple questions like what's happening in my body right now what's happening in my mind simply not into thinking way like let me figure out what's happening but simply dropping into our direct experience. Oh what is this craving feel like and oh that's curiosity. Oh it's tightness. It's burning. It's it's something in my throat. It's this is this and we dive into those sensations and what those what that helps us. Do is see that this craving isn't some big bag terrible thing. That's GONNA clobber for us. It's just sensations coming going moment to moment so I had a patient came into my office and he said Dr I don't smoke my head's going to explode and I didn't know what to do. So I came up with terrible joke. I was like well your head explodes in I put pieces back together and call me and we'll we'll case report he was and he human me with a polite laugh and and and I said well the seriously let's map this out what does head exploding feel like we went through the rain and so the end part heart of rain is note so we had him note out loud. What is experience was oh well? It feels like this it feels like tightness. It's burning its tension is this and we were able to map it out so as these as that craving came up these sensations would be there and they were stronger and stronger and then they started to go away and he had this Hamam Wade. I can be with these sensations because they don't last forever right. I've had tons of patients eight. Oh feel like this cravings lasting forever. I said well how long actually have you ever had a craving. That's lasted forever and then they look in of course no because they would still have that. Whatever that creating was started five years ago so they realize it just feels bad in the moment but that feeling bad in the moment is going to change and that's one of the core four elements of mindfulness is helping be with these things that are unpleasant and kind of holding them cradling them like a like a baby and instead of saying get out of here saying oh part of me? Oh and you're just a sensation. You're you're not some some terrible thing and in that sense we can actually turn toward these things with kindness and with curiosity and be with these sensations until they come and go and then realize I actually right out a craving yeah. It seems seems not dissimilar to think about breakup in my past and how painful they are how Keatley painful they are and then it's almost like a nautilus. Shell you know where it's like. It feels like those moments of pain and sadness get and there's a little bit more space between each one and it keeps like radiating out all your leg. You're out of it totally visually what a great image that is absolutely it because in the moment it's feels very contracted attracted right so I can really see that space opening an opening an opening and the beauty of this is that we can actually see that there is space. That's always available every moment their space that we can tap into and we can you. Let's take at this to its extreme so if you think of control cravings to this contracted state so does fear so does worry so does anxiety well when we're with these sensations and see that they aren't us they aren't who we are that opens up this huge amount of space where we can be with sensations rather than be the sensation so I've had folks are on winning anxiety program talk about how they had seen themselves identified with anxiety and after going through the program realizing Oh these are are just sensations that that say oh this is anxiety and not me yes and a huge breakthrough huge breakthrough and that space like in those moments of space there's relief. It's like it allows you to go back into the battle and you know it's going to be over whereas I feel like sometimes those when you're in that Vortex I've never been an active addict so I don't know exactly what that's like. Although you would argue that I'm probably addicted to many things which is true but I feel like when you see the light if you can't see the light because you're always a victim of your cravings I would imagine how hopeless that feels but when you know you can get to the other side without succumbing does that it. Is it like those are the break people build those breakthroughs. They start to retrain their brain. Yes so imagine that we're we're constantly our heads underwater and it just feels like we're drowning all the time will the first time our head comes up for water. We get this breath of fresh air. We realize oh there's the era up here and then we go back down and we're down for a long time again and then we come back up and we oh there's air up here and then we realize we can actually train our minds to do this to come up in that. Actually there's air here all the time time so that's actually what mindfulness training is about is really training us to understand the habit patterns of our mind if we can understand those than we can start to work with our minds but if we can't understand them that time that we come up for fresh air we we have no idea what created that we might even say oh well I was. I was drinking celery juice at the time and so it must be salaries that makes me whatever and it was just my p._H._d.. Mentor used to say true two hundred and unrelated you could have that God that breath of fresh air and be doing something and then we our brains loved to link things together correlation not causation. It's true true so how'd that breath of fresh air drank seller juice but doesn't mean the celery juice made me have that thing and we have to realize if we can't reproduce that experiment that that's that may not be an accurate representation of our minds work will these ancient these ancient ancient traditions actually figured out how our minds worked and we're actually rediscovering this in modern her day through psychiatry through mother neuroscience. We've had a bunch of this stuff out in the brain. So we're kind of rediscovering what's been known for a long time and now we can actually apply it. Yeah aren't where so good at that right like making really ancient discoveries raise taxes on the shoulder. It's only twenty five hundred years old but it's cool you can can appropriate right you think about so many healing systems that come out of the East and how how hard. Hearted is for them to become part of our vernacular and then they ended up being like the thing it's the thing right I love how much energy you've invested and setting meditation and sort of its powers and how to not be victimized by your mind really there's a lot of suffering out there. Yeah just wanted to make a little dent in the world and this is one. If we make a little dent in this will help yeah totally and I thought this was a really important part of your book when you talk about how for whatever reason and you can explain why we tend to inflate excitement and happiness. Am I getting that right yes that there is that that fluttering and I guess that's the reward that excitement moment and then we tend to like get hooked on it as some variation of happiness but the two are completely different well. It's up so let's explore this curiosity curiously. Let's exponentially and anybody listen can actually do this with us so well. Let's let's kind of set up the scale so we can make sure that we're we're understanding experience and understanding each other so let's start with all ask you if something feels more contracted or expanded like we talked about with craving versus curiosity so does fear feel more contracted expanded in your chest. Okay mine too absolutely so feels contracted. How about something like joy expense expansive? Okay now the trick question that I'm going to tell you is the trick questions so it won't obvious tricky of a question so if you had to pick between joy and excitement which one feels more expanded joy yes date. has you eight plus but that's that's a tricky one for a lot of people they haven't realized that there's a higher level of happiness than excitement because they've been trained whether it's societally or in for whatever reasons they think oh the roller coasters the imagining my my next kiss if they've just started on a new romantic relationship all of that excitement is the best that it's ever been for them and if they don't realize there's something more rewarding than that's going to be their highest level of happiness and so they mistake ah made a mistake this excitement of the mind for happiness and it's not that they necessarily mistake it but it's that they've not known anything else. There's actually a part of the brain that I think of as the B. O. Part of the brain have you heard that term before B._B._D._o.. Now now the bigger better offer so our brain is always looking for the B. O.. The bigger better offer and for me. I'll use a concrete examples for me. It's chocolate so if you give me a piece of of milk chocolate versus a piece of seventy percent chocolate and I get to taste both of them. My brain says seventy percent hands down. That's the bigger better offer for my brain and then you jack that up to eighty five percent and then it's something's going off there and then you had sea salts or you and then you take the different brands and some brands just this wonderful mouth feel to it and so so my brain has this crazy library this crazy hierarchy of bigger better offers. Somebody says here's some chocolate. My brain says well what kind of chocolate it is it because I'm not interested in milk chocolate. I won't eat it but if you give me seventy percent especially if it's this brand with the I'm in and so our brain is looking for that bigger better offer so we come back to excitement versus joy if excitement is the best offer we've ever received. Why would our brain look anywhere else? It's like well. This is this is as good as it gets. Let's just try to get back on that rollercoaster of life. Let's scroll through the twitter feed. Let's get on tinder. Let's do whatever it is. It's GonNa get me that excitement but then when we offer it something better and we say well actually hold on a second. Let's explore what joy feels like and we see the quality of experience that comes with that expansion that comes with joy is compared to the contraction that that comes with excitement then our brains is bigger better off her hands down all move into joy and this is where it's amazing because we can start to look <unk> at all sorts of habits every day addictions that we have so we can look at you know it's like Oh. I'm going to go on twitter and we can ask ourselves well. What do I get from this and how does this compare to really connecting with? Somebody in. I'm not a real conversation like totally dialed in lose track of time all that stuff hands down bigger better after two totally be connected with somebody right so this is where we can actually just help people simply bring awareness to what who are actually doing in any one moment and ask. How rewarding is this actually just a second or taking a quick break <music>? When it comes to skin-care? I am big on exfoliating a lot. I use goups expo- leading instant facial every single day even though the box technically says to do it just two or three times a week. I don't really wear makeup when I'm going to the office during the week but I always wear moisturizer or face oil and the other thing I do every single morning is drink. goop glow goop glow is our morning skin super powder so in other words. It's a powder that you mix into a glass of water. The flavor tastes a little like oranges and a little like lemon Urbina. I love it. We designed Goop glow to be full of ingredients that support healthy glowing skin. There are six potent antioxidants in Goop glow. You've probably heard of most of them like vitamin C and Vitamin E. CO Q. Hugh Ten lateen ends as Anthon altogether. These antioxidants in Goop glow are meant to reduce the free radical effects of the sun pollution and everyday stress topical skin-care is great but I personally don't think it's enough which is why I like adding goop glow to my routine. The powder comes in cute little single-dose packets. I subscribe to our thirty packs of Gu Hoopla so I get my new box every month and if I'm not drinking it at home author a packet and my gym bag on the way to work out or I'll bring a bunch of GLUCO and my carry on when I'm traveling for sure if you WANNA try it out yourself and I highly recommend you do order one box of Goop glow today and will include a second box on us just head to google dot com slash goop glow podcast and use Promo Code Goop glow. I checkout that's goop dot com slash goop glow podcast and use Promo Code Coop Glow to get your second box on us so we've gotten a little podcast obsessed over here her maybe it's because we have a series of our own but I find it really interesting to listen to different hosts and see how their interview styles theory. There's always something new to learn one podcast that we've talked about on here before the Barney's podcast is coming back doc for a third season which were very excited about and their revamping for the new season journalists nor too gory taking over as the seasons host. She's a total bad ass. She celebrates leaders who dare to use their voices to speak up and speak out and she has a very compelling way of telling stories nor reminds us that passionate design aren't necessarily just the close we wear they can be away of expressing our creativity and she's just really an inspiration on the Barney's podcast nor a sitting down with some of the most innovative figures in the fashion industry. They talk about all the things you want to know about their world why they do what they do and why that matters for starters. There's an episode with Tan. France Queer is beloved fashion designer. He's talking about how you almost queer eye in the beginning about handling the intense pressure he felt as a young professional in the fashion industry and about how he used clothing to express himself as a child like wearing his favorite Disney denim vest on another episode episode nor chats with Elaine well trough the former editor in chief of teen vogue who happened to be a panelist at one of our in group health summit nor also has on Dapper Dan and model Jillian Mercado. You can keep up with all noise chats. Listen and subscribe hyped Barney's podcast wherever you get your podcasts and now back to today's conversation. Do you find because I know you look at a lot of f f M._R._I.. Activity activity that there are certain people who are more inclined for those highs and lows who like that that experience versus people who are into the more moderated expansive joy. It's a really good question. We haven't dialed in at that level but we have looked for example. We've looked at people who've never meditated before versus people have meditated for a long time and we've done a bunch of even realtime neuro feedback experiments. We've had Anderson Cooper come in and he meditated while we're filming his brain changing. It was pretty amazing for sixty minutes but here as people start to dial into that the quality of experience that comes with joy it's hard good for them to even move into the other space <hes> and so with these real-time feedback experiments we at the end we have people experienced meditators they can really sink into this like the spacious space literally and then we say okay go this other way like get contracted and their brains like no thanks and they just they just can't do it. Whereas Novice meditators a little more of their default is to be in that activated state so so is there? Is there a team addiction like are there certain people who are more inclined like does not exist because I I don't. I don't actually no but I I've heard people say like there is gene prediction or obviously people who are parents who are addicts know that they're more inclined like what is what does the science support there there are there's no one gene for addiction. There are certainly a number of genes that have been implicated in a number of brain pathways involved in addiction and so in that sense some people may be more prone and it's really hard to disentangle like you're talking about the genes by the environment interaction because often people whose parents had had addictive. Tendencies than set them up through both probably both their genes and their environment to do it but the key here is to recognize that this habit loop the you know this addiction pathway that we have is in here into all of us. It's really a learning pathway so the good news no matter what genes we've gotten right because we have control over those no matter what genes we have we can actually work with our minds and we can learn to work with our mind whether it's a hardcore addiction or just in I should shouldn't say just in every day addiction because every since we're pretty tough whether it's anxiety or worry or or facebook or whatever so thinking about the genetic factors of addiction or we think about this generation being raised on on technology and like in so many ways the future is now this is I was raised on T._v.. I had a lot of the stuff and I'm fine questionably but in terms of helping young people are where is it important to sort of train them on what this addiction loop looks lake so that they can then does that arm them throughout life to sort of understand why they're doing whatever it is that they're doing. I think it's critical. It's just my opinion in this. It's interesting because children are technology natives when they don't know what it was like not to have technology right everything from social media to ipads to whatever that's that's just how they don't know the world without it without these and these technologies are increasingly <hes> kind of gaming our brains the more neuroscientists known the more folks can actually capitalize on that in and get us hooked to whatever their apper their program there whatever is so if we don't arm people with that understanding of how their mind works. They're just going to become enslaved by by technology so I think it's critical this floored me but there seems to be this addiction to solve right or the self reflection and the study. I don't know if the F. Everyone was young. I can't remember but essentially it was like seventeen percent people would take seventeen percent less money in order to talk about themselves. Yes let can you explain what that was because that's that we would forego real money can buy us food yeah in order to basically talk about ourselves else yeah yeah so there were a couple of studies. The first one was done at Harvard <hes> few years ago now where they put people in an N._F._l.. Scanner and they basically gave so for an F._M.. Rice study we need to conditions you need a baseline or a comparison condition your active <hes> experimental condition and so here you know the conditions like you talked about. Were you can earn money or you can talk about yourself. Basically and people chose they were more likely to choose to talk about themselves. Forgo money running actual monetary rewards to talk about themselves and when they were doing it they were activating part of their brain called the nucleus accumbens which is the downstream recipient of dopamine from <hes> the most well characterized addiction pathway known in the brain so basically you know this part of the brain gets activated by alcohol by heroin by nicotine apparently by facebook you know if you if you think of it that way there's another study that actually showed that they could prevent they could predict the amount of time that people spent on facebook based on how much they're nucleus accumbens with activated and that in fed by social because of the self you know you're seeing yourself realized in a way by like likes aches and engagement with whatever you're posting and like in terms of unraveling that work addicted to ourselves. Is that what it saying so it's there's something rewarding about about ourselves yes so so for example and and it's interesting in modern day so most communication happens non verbally right so that's actually a critical element of just taking in our environment yet in with social media all of that is gone and on top of that feedback is quantitative right so you can clearly know how many likes you got versus. You didn't get so for example. There was a study using instagram feeds at U._C._l._A. With adolescents and they basically took adolescents instagram feeds and they manipulated only one thing which was how many likes certain pictures got versus over a versus other ones and they've found that that you know getting a bunch of likes jacked this nucleus accumbens as you know this reward based learning pathway and it also linked that up with a network called the default mode network which is involved in self reference and so here it was a direct link between reward and self and so that seems to be wired so what's sort of the antidote like thinking about young kids getting hooked on social and themselves right. How do you break that pattern yeah so the first thing that we can do to break the pattern is understand our own minds so for example of for parent with kids if we can't understand how the process works? We're not going to be able to help our kids and so we've gotta understand our own minds. <music> step one step to is see how were modeling this type of behavior for our kids <hes> so we understand her own minds work then we can start to map out our own habit lips our own everyday addictions whether it's news news feeds whether it's check you know whatever whatever they are and they can be as simple as worrying so worry is is a huge habit loop especially at seems to be another epidemic in Modern Day as this allied Salat in college students salon early young adults where they're just getting out in the world and they're worried I'm GONNA make it. You know there's so many things to worry about right so understanding how how these habit loops work in understanding reminds then arms arms us to be able to bring that wisdom to help the kids and then help them start to identify the habit patterns as well and once we identify them then that's where the bigger better offer piece comes in so when they're when they're stuck gaming for fifty hours or whatever some ridiculous amount of time we can help them see well. What does that feel like compared to actually having direct connection like a good conversation with your with your buddy and help them? It helped their brains kind of see that clearly not an oh. I should not game right but really helping them their brain. See this on directly experiential level not on a thinking level. I think that's where we're going to really change things and you know honestly we've seen this. I mean we've done a bunch of scientific studies around you know how can we actually package these types of trainings and help people change their change their behaviors and so I'm not just saying this theory but I'm saying in reality like for example boy. Some of the hardest thought smoking was hard but we did a study. We've got five times that quit rates of gold standard treatment okay did it did all right with mindfulness training and then we said started working with people who are struggling with eating so you don't have to smoke to survive survive but you do have to eat and so I realized wow this is hard minimum even bigger part of the population so we did a study we may this APP called eat right now. Help people identify these habit patterns and work with them. Bring mindfulness in their forty eighty percent reduction in craving <unk> related eating wow and then we said we realize a lot of these folks were actually eating because of anxiety and so we said well. Let's make a program to help people with worry thinking fifty percent reduction which traffic that it's called unwinding anxiety but the idea is and this is really helpful from a scientific perspective if we can see this from four three four different angles where it's all pointing the same thing. It suggests that this isn't some snake oil oil you know this isn't some fat of the day but this is really tapping into the core elements of how our minds work and if it is then we develop that wisdom when or the beautiful things we've been seeing with these programs is that people are developing wisdom so they're taking in this knowledge so we develop a specific program to help us specific thing like emotional eating or anxiety and they learn it helps them with that and then they come to us with these Aha moments and they say you know what I'm actually more connected with my significant the other and I didn't realize that I was disconnected but this helped me see this and overcome whatever that habit loop was or I am kinder to myself. We see this in our eating program and breaks my heart. So many people in our eating program program have this habit loop of self shame and blame where they can't even look in the mirror. They can't look at their body. You know they just look in. It's just too traumatic for them but they realize you know that is actually habit loop for me not that self judgment and for many of them sexually drives more eating behavior ironically right so they realize oh this is driving it and the kindness actually feels pretty good. I mean imagine when we're just I kinda ourselves a little bit. Oh it's so feel so much better than when we beat ourselves up totally and I think anytime that you give someone the keys to understanding what's driving it and you take away sort of that itself judgment of like God fucking damage like why did you smoke another cigarette. Obviously that's like a far more loving. I think that that distance even from yourself right allows you to be more compassionate compassionate so you're bringing in their distance which comes back to your con- Shell space so what's it feel like what is more space like when we're judging ourselves our winward holding ourselves what's more connected right and connection feels open as compared to not being connected that feels that distance feels closed so even that feel so much better. You know it really feels that much better <music> thanks for listening to my chat with Judd Burger. If you want more get a copy of the craving mind you should also check out his APPs which are based in research unwinding anxiety eat right now oh and craving to quit available on itunes. That's it for today's episode. If you have a chance please rate and review hit subscribe to keep up with new episodes and pass it along to a friend who might need to listen thanks again.

twitter dopamine nicotine Barney facebook founder nucleus accumbens Gwyneth Paltrow heroin emphysema Judd Bir Clare Toss Mind Sciences Leesville American Lung Association Yale Judson France Jetson Burr
S2. Ep. 09: Yaa Gyasi reads an excerpt from "Transcendent Kingdom"

Storybound

41:49 min | 7 months ago

S2. Ep. 09: Yaa Gyasi reads an excerpt from "Transcendent Kingdom"

"Hi. My name is Ya Jesse and you are listening to story bound. I will be reading an excerpt from my novel Transcendent Kingdom. Welcome to story bound presented by lit hub radio and the POD GLOMMA. I'm your host Judy. In just a little bit yoga get to hear Ya Jesse read an excerpt from her book transcendent Kingdom with original music by Tim car plus. And, if you stick around until after the credits yoga to hear a little bit about the digital book world gathering happening this. month. If you love listening to the show, please consider giving it a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts we want to continue bringing you the show for free and part of our ability to do that means we need a big audience it may not seem like it but rating and reviewing the show will help more people find us you just search story bound on apple podcasts, scroll to the bottom and push five stars that easy. If you'd like, you can even note explaining why you love the show. Thank you. Whenever I think of my mother I picture a queen sized bed with her lying in it a practice stillness spilling the room for months on end. She colonized that bad like a virus the first time when I was a child and then again when I was a graduate student. The first time I was sent to Ghana to wait her out. While there I was walking through catchy market with my aunt when she grabbed my arm and pointed. Look a crazy person she said and tree. Do. You see a crazy person I was mortified. My aunt was speaking so loudly and the man tall with caked into his dreadlocks was within earshot. I see I see I answered in a low hiss. The man continued past US mumbling to himself as he waved his hands about in gestures that only he could understand my aunt nodded satisfied. And we kept walking past the hordes of people gathered in that agoraphobia inducing market. Until we reached the stall where we would spend the rest of the morning attempting to sell knockoff handbags. And my three months there we sold only for bags. Even now, I don't completely understand why my aunt single men out to me maybe she thought there were no crazy people in America that I had never seen one before. Or. Maybe she was thinking about my mother about the real reason I was stuck in Ghana that summer sweating a stalled with an aunt I hardly knew while my mother healed at home in Alabama. I was eleven. And I could see that my mother wasn't sick not in the ways that I was used to. I didn't understand what my mother needed healing from. I didn't understand, but I did and my embarrassment at my aunt's loud gesture has much to do with my understanding as it did with the man who had passed us by. My aunt was saying that. That is what crazy looks like. But instead what I heard was my mother's name. Put I saw was my mother's face still as lake water the pastors hand resting gently on her forehead, his prayer alight that made the room buzz. I'm not sure I know what crazy looks like but even today. Here the word I picture a split screen, the dreadlocked man, and catch it Ya on one side my mother lying in bed on the other. I think about how no one at all reacted to that man in the market not in fear disgust nothing saved my aunt who wanted me to look? He was it seemed to me at perfect peace even as he stipulated wildly. Even as he mumbled, but my mother in her bed infinitely still. who was wild inside? The second time it happened I got a phone call I was working in my lab at. Stanford. I'd had to separate two of my mice because they were ripping each other to bits in that shoebox of a home we kept them in. I found a piece of flesh in one corner at the box, but it couldn't tell which mouse it came from at first. Both were bleeding and frenzied scurrying away from me when I tried to grab them even though there was nowhere to run. Look gifty. She hasn't been to church nearly a month. I've been calling the house, but she won't pick up. And go buy some times and make sure she's got food and everything but I think. I think it's happening again. I didn't say anything the MICE had calmed down considerably, but I was still shaken by the sight of them and worried about my research worried about everything. GIFTY pastor John Said She should come stay with me. I'm not sure how the pastor got my mother on the plane. When I picked her up at Asif. Oh she looked completely vacant her body limp. I imagined pastor John Holding her up the way you would a jumpsuit. Arms crossed about the chest and an axe legs pulled up to meet them. Then tucking her safely into a suitcase complete with a handle with care sticker before passing are off to the flight attendant. I gave her a stiff hive and shrank from my touch. I took deep breath. Did you check a bag I asked Debbie she said. Okay. No bags. Great. We can go straight to the car. The SACCHARIN Shereen of my voice. Annoyed me so much. I bit my tongue in an attempt to bite back. I felt a prick of blood and sucked it away. She followed me to my previous under better circumstances. She would have made fun of my car an oddity to her after years of Alabama, pickup trucks and SUV's. GIFTY my bleeding heart she sometimes called me. I don't know where she'd picked up the phrase, but I figured it was probably used derogatorily by pastor John and various TV preachers she liked to watch while she cooked to describe people who like me at defected from Alabama to live among the centers of the world presumably because the excessive bleeding of our hearts made us too weak to tough it out among the hardy the chosen of Christ in the Bible Belt. She loved Billy Graham who said things like a real Christian is the one who can give his pet parrot to the town gossip. Cruel I thought when I was a child to give away your pet parrot. The funny thing about the phrases that my mom picked up is that she always got them a little wrong. I was herb heart not a bleeding heart. It's a crime. Shame not a crying shame. She had a little southern accent that tinted her Ghanaian want. It made me think of my friend and whose hair was brown except on Sundays when the sunlight touch her chest so and suddenly. You saw read. In the car she stared out of the passenger side window quiet which mouse. I tried to imagine the scenery the way she might be seeing it. When I first arrived in California, everything had looked so beautiful to me. Even, the grass yellowed scorched from the sun and the seemingly endless drought had looked other worldly. This must be Mars. I thought because how could this be America too I pictured drab green pastures of my childhood. The small hills we called mountains the vast. -Ness of this western landscape overwhelmed me. I'd come to California because I wanted to get lost to find. In College I'd read Walden because a boy I found beautiful found the book beautiful. I understood nothing but highlighted everything including this. Not till we are lost and other words not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves and realize where we are and the infinite extent of our relations? You. Are Listening to story about. And now for a short break. Support for this podcast count from cdw In del Technologies. CDW We get migrating your agency to a hyper converged infrastructure is challenging. Got GotTA. Do it I want to do it but got to do it. Slowdown friend CDW experts can help simplify your transition from legacy to hyper converged infrastructure with the -nology solutions that offer speed and agility. Have you done isn't done yet. Why isn't it done yet? It orchestration by CDW. G people who get it find out more at CDW DOT com. Slash. DELTEC. Jude here, and I'm here to tell you about a podcast called Harry Potter and the sacred text in this podcast. Harvard Divinity School graduates and Co hosts finessing Casper have embarked on a five year journey to take a deeper dive into all of the Harry Potter books. Together. This duo will relive the magic of the text chapter by chapter exploring themes of commitment revenge forgiveness. And some of life's big questions you can join. Vanessa Casper this season as they explore book seven Harry Potter and the deathly hallows. If you're considering starting jumping back into Harry Potter or if you're enthralled with thoughtful and enlightening conversations, this is the perfect podcast for you just search and listen to Harry Potter and the sacred text on apple or wherever you're listening to this podcast. And now we return from our. If. My mother was moved by the landscape to I couldn't tell. We lurched forward and traffic and I caught the eye of a man in the car next to ours he quickly looked away then looked back then away again. I wanted to make him uncomfortable or maybe just to transfer my own discomfort to him and so I kept staring. I could see in the way that he ripped the steering wheel that he was trying not to look at me again. His knuckles were Pale Vani rimmed with red. He gave up shot me an exasperated look mouthed Wyatt. I've always found that traffic on a bridge brings everyone closer to their own personal edge. Inside each car a snapshot of a Breaking Point Drivers looking out toward the water and wondering what if could there be another way out. We scooted forward again. In. The scrum cars, the man seemed almost close enough to touch. What would he do if he could touch me? If he didn't have to contain all of that rage inside his Honda Accord where would it go? Are you hungry. I asked my mother finally turning away. She shrugged still staring out of the window. The last time this happened, she had lost seventy pounds in two months. When I came back from my summer in Ghana, I had hardly recognized her this woman would always found skinny people offensive as though a kind of laziness or failure of character kept them from appreciating the pure joy. That is a good meal. Then she joined their ranks. Her cheek sank her stomach deflated she hollowed disappeared. I was determined not to let this happen again. I'd bought an cookbook online to make up for the years. I'd spent avoiding my mother's kitchen and I'd practice a few of the dishes in the days leading up to my mother's arrival hoping perfect them before I saw her. I bought a deep fryer even though my Grad student stipend left little room and my budget for extravagances like fruit or plantain. Fried food was my mother's favorite. Her mother had made Fried Food Cart on the side of the. Road Kumasi. My grandmother was a Fonte woman from is it? A Si town and she was notorious for despising Ashanti's so much so that she refused to speak tree. Even after twenty years of living in the Ashanti. Capital. If. You bought her food you had to listen to her language. We're here I said rushing to help my mother get out of the car. She walked a little ahead of me even though she'd never been to this apartment before. She visited me in California only a couple of times. Sorry for the mass I said, but there was no mess none that my eyes could see anyway. But my eyes were not hers. Every time she visited me over the years she'd sweep her finger along things that never occurred to me to clean. The backs of blinds, the hinges of doors. Then present the dusty blackened finger to me an accusation an I could do nothing but shrug. Cleanliness is godliness she's to say. Cleanliness is next to godliness. I would correct and she would scowl. What was the difference? I pointed her toward the bedroom and silently she crawled into bed and drifted off into sleep. As soon as I heard the sound of soft snoring, I sneaked out of the apartment and went to check on my mice. Though I had separated them the one with the largest wounds was hunched over from pain in the corner of the box. Watching him wasn't sure he would live much longer. It filled me with an inexplicable sorrow. And when my lab Han found me twenty minutes later crying in the corner of the room I knew I would be too mortified to admit that the thought of a mouse's death was the cause of my tears. Bad Day, I told Han. A look of horror passed over his face as he mustered up few pitiful words of comfort. And I could imagine what he was thinking. I went into the hard sciences. So I wouldn't have to be around emotional women. My crying turn to laughter loud and fly me and the look of horror on his face deepened until his ears flushed as red as a stop sign. I stopped laughing and rushed out of the lab and into the restroom where stared at myself in the mirror. My eyes were puffy and red my nose looked bruised the skin around my nostrils dry and scaly from the tissues. Get a hold of yourself inside to the woman in the mirror. But doing. So felt cliche like I was reenacting a scene out of a movie. And so I started to feel like I didn't have a self to get a hold of. Rather, they had million selves too many to gather. One was in the bathroom playing a role. Another. In the lab staring at my wounded mouse, an animal about whom I felt nothing at all. Who's pain had reduced me somehow. Or multiply it. Another self was still thinking about my mother. The mouse fight had rattled me into checking on my mice more than I needed to trying to keep ahead of the feeling when I got to the lab the day of my mother's arrival on was already they're performing surgery on his mice. As was usually the case whenever Hawn arrived at the lab I, the Thermostat was turned down low. I shivered and he looked up from his work. He said. Hey. Though we'd been sharing this space for months now, we hardly ever said more than this to each other except for the day he'd found me crying on smiled at me more now, but his ears still burned bright red. If I tried to push our conversation passed that initial greeting. And checked down on my mice and my experiments, no fights no surprises I. Drove back to my apartment. In, the bedroom my mother still lay underneath a cloud of covers a sound like a per floated out from her lips. I had been living alone for so long that even that soft noise hardly more than unnerved me. I'd forgotten what it was like to live with my mother to care for her. For a long time most of my life in fact. It had been just me and her. But this pairing was a natural. She knew it and I knew it and we both tried to ignore what we knew to be. True. There used to be four of us than three to. When. My mother goes whether by choice or not there will only be one. You are listening to story about. And now for a short break. Hey, it's Jude Burr. I just wanted to tell you about a podcast called the history of literature. It's a show that covers everything from the life and works of literary giants like Tolstoy in Dusky to lighthearted topics like the best of the Bard Shakespeare's greatest lines and overrated the books you don't need to read over the past five years host. Jack Wilson and his guests have explored everything from Gilgamesh goal seeking out the most unusual compelling and inspiring stories from the world of literature with his special blend of self loathing and optimism Jack Tackles. Every book could change his life and more often than not. It does just that at its heart. The history of literature podcast is a celebration of what we love about literature and life. It will appeal to anyone who enjoys passionate intelligent an unpretentious conversations about the beauty and importance of great books previous and fourth coming episodes of the show featured guests such as Tom Perrotta, Alison Hagey, Charles Baxter Amanda Stern Joshua Ferris Matt, Gallagher Tobias Wolff, and Comedian Joe Para. The history of literature is brought to you by the pod glamorous new episodes run every Monday and Thursday, and you can listen today by subscribing on Apple podcasts or wherever you are listening to this show. Hi It's Jude. I would like to tell you about a wonderful podcast called get sleepy. have. You ever listened to a podcast while fallen asleep. Well, get sleepy is the storytelling podcast designed to help you relax and fall. Asleep. Each episode starts with a short mindfulness meditation followed by a calming meandering story that quiets the mind allowing you to drift off to sleep with two episodes. Every single week, you'll never run out of great new bedtime stories just search for get sleepy in your podcast player of choice to subscribe or visit get sleepy dot com. And now we returned from our break. My mother slept all day and all night every day every night. She was a movable. Whenever I could I would try to convince her to eat something. I'd taken to make an cocoa. My favorite childhood meal. I had to go to three different stores to find the right kind of millet. The right kind of corn husks the right peanuts to sprinkle on top. I hoped the porridge with go down thoughtlessly. Leave a bowl of it by her bedside in the morning before I left for work and when I returned, the top layer would be covered and film the layer underneath that hardened so that when I scraped it into the sink, felt the effort of it. My mother is back was always turn to me. Like she had an internal sensor for when I'd be entering the room to deliver the cocoa. I couldn't picture the movie montage of us. The days spelled out the bottom of the screen, my outfits changing our actions the same. After about five days of this. Entered the room and my mother was awake and facing me. gifty she said as I sat the ball of cocoa down. Prey. It would have been kinder to lie. But I wasn't kind anymore. Maybe. I never had been. A vaguely remembered a childhood kindness, but maybe I was conflating innocence and kindness. I felt so little continuity between who I was as a young child and who I was now that it seemed pointless to even consider my mother something like mercy. Would I have been merciful when I was a child? No I answered. When I was a child I prayed. I studied my Bible and kept a journal with letters to God. I was a paranoid journal keeper. So I made code for all the people in my life whom I wanted God to punish. Reading the Journal makes it clear that I was a real centers in the hands of an angry God kind of Christian. And I believed in the redemptive power of punishment. For it is said that when that do time or appointed time comes their foot show slide, then they shall be left to fall as they are inclined by their own weight. Codename I gave my mother, the Black Mamba. Because we just learned about the snakes and school. The movie The teacher showed us that day featured a seven foot long snake that looked like a slender woman skin skintight leather dress slithering across the Sahara in pursuit of Bush world. And my journal, the night we learned about the snakes I wrote. Dear God the Black Mamba has been really mean to me lately. Yesterday she told me that if I didn't clean my room, no, one would want to marry me. My brother Nano was code-named buzz. I don't remember why now. And the first few years of my journal Keeping Buzz was my hero. Dear God buzz rain after the ice cream truck today. He bought a firecracker popsicle for himself and Flintstones push pop for me. Or? Dear God. At the REC center today. None of the other kids want to be my partner for the three legged race because they said, I was too little. But then buzz came over and he said that he would do it and guess what we won and I got a trophy. Sometimes he annoyed me but back, then his offenses innocuous trivial. To God buzz keeps coming into my room without knocking and can't stand him. But after a few years by please for God's intervention became something else entirely. Dear God. When buzz came home last night, he started yelling at t. b. m. and I could hear her crying. So I went downstairs to look even know I was supposed to be in bed. She told him to keep quiet or he would wake me but then he picked up the TV and smashed it on the four and punched a hole in the wall. and his hand was bleeding and TBN started crying and she looked up and saw me and I ran back to my room while by screamed kept the fuck out of here you know. What does. I was ten when I wrote that entry. Was Smart enough to use the code names and make note of new. Words but not smart enough to see that anyone who could read could easily crack my code. Ahead. The Journal under my mattress but because my mother is a person who thinks to clean underneath the mattress, I'm sure she would have found it at some point. If she did, she never mentioned it. After. The broken television incident, my mother had run up to my bedroom and lock the door while nine raved downstairs. She grabbed me close and pulled the both of us down onto our knees behind the bed while she prayed in Sri. Bob Dunne or Lord protect my son. Eradicate Bama. Lord protect my son. You should pray my mother said then reaching for the cocoa. I watched her two spoonfuls before setting it back down on the nightstand. Has It. Okay. I asked. She shrugged turned her back to me once more. I, went to the lab. Han wasn't fair. So the room was a livable temperature. I set my jacket on the back of a chair. Got Myself Ready. Then grabbed a couple of my mice to prep them for surgery. I shaved the for from the tops of their heads until I saw their scalps I, carefully drilled through those by keeping the blood away until I found the bright red of their brains. The chest of the anesthetized rodents expanding in deflating mechanically as they breathed their unconscious breaths. Though. I had done this millions of times. It's still odd me see a brain. To know that if I could only understand this little oregon inside this one tiny mouse that understanding still wouldn't speak to the full intricacies of the comparable. Oregon inside my own head. And yet I had to try to understand to extrapolate from not limited understanding an order to apply it to those of us who made this species Homo sapiens. The most complex animal, the only and. who believed he had transcended his kingdom as one of my high school biology teachers used to say. That belief. That transcendence was within the Oregon itself Infinite unknowable soul perhaps even magical. I had traded the PENTECOSTAL ISM of my childhood for this new religion this newquest. Knowing that I would never fully. No. I was a sixth year PhD candidate and neuroscience at the Stanford University School of Medicine. My research was on the neural circuits reward seeking behavior. Once on a date during my first year Grad School, I had board a guy stiff by trying to explain to him what I did all day. He'd taken me to Tofu House in Palo Alto. And as they watched him struggle with his chopsticks losing several pieces, of Bogie to the Napkin in his lap. I told him all about the medial prefrontal cortex nucleus accumbens two Photon calcium imaging. We know that the medial prefrontal cortex plays a critical role in suppressing reward seeking behavior. And stressed that the neural circuitry that allows it to do so is poorly understood. I'd met him on. Okay cupid. He had straw blond hair skin perpetually at the end phase of a sunburn. He looked like a so cal surfer. The entire time we'd messaged back and forth I wondered if I was the first black girl, he'd ever asked out. If he was checking some kind of box off his list of new and exotic things like to try. Like the Korean food in front of us, which he'd already given up on. he said sounds interesting. Maybe, he'd expected something different. There were only five women in my lab of Twenty eight and I was one of three black PhD candidates in the. Entire. Med School. I had told so cal surfer that I was getting my doctorate but I hadn't told him what I was getting it in because I didn't want to scare him away. Narrow science may have screamed sparked, but it didn't really scream sexy. Adding to that, my blackness may be I was too much of an anomaly for him. He never called me back. From then on I told dates that my job was to get mys- hooked on cocaine before taking it away from them. To in three asked the same question. So, do you just like have a ton of cocaine? Never admitted that we'd switched from cocaine to ensure. It was easier to get and sufficiently addictive for the mice. I relished the thrill of having something interesting and elicit to say to these men most of whom I would sleep with once and then never see again. It made me feel powerful to see their name splash across my phone screen hours days weeks after they'd seen me naked. After they'd dug their fingers into my back sometimes drawing blood. Reading their tax I liked to feel the marks they'd left. I felt like I could suspend them. They're just names on my phone screen, but after a while they stopped calling moved on. And then I would feel powerful and their silence least for a little while. I wasn't accustomed to power and relationships, power and sexuality. I had never been asked on a date in high school not once. I wasn't cool enough wide enough. Enough. In College I had been shy and. Still molting the skin of a Christianity that insisted I save myself or marriage. That left me fearful of men and of my body. Every other send a person commits is outside the body. But the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. I'm pretty right. I asked my mother once. We were standing in front of the mirror while she put her makeup on for work. Remember how old I was only that I wasn't allowed to wear makeup yet. At a sneak it when my mother wasn't around, but that wasn't too hard to do by mother worked all the time she was never around. Kind of question is that she asked. Chicago my arm and shirked toward the mirror. Look she said. and. At first I thought she was angry at me. I tried to look away but every time my eyes fell, my mother would jerk me to attention once more. She choked me so many times I thought my arm would come loose from the socket. Looked at what God made. Looked at what I made she sat in Sri. We stared at ourselves in the mirror for a long time. We stared until my mother's work alarm went off the one that told her. It was time to leave one job in order to get to the other. She finished putting her lipstick on kissed her reflection in the mirror and rushed off. I kept staring at myself after she left a saying my own reflection back. I watched my mice groggily spring back to life recovering from the anesthesia and woozy from the painkillers I'd given them. I'd injected a virus into the nucleus accumbens an implant a lens into their brains said, I could see their neurons firing as Iran my experiments. I sometimes wondered if they noticed the added weight, they carried on their heads, but I tried not to think thoughts like that tried not to humanize them because I worried it would make it harder for me to do my work. I cleaned up my station and went to my office to try to do some writing. I was supposed to be working toward a paper presumably my last before graduating. The hardest part putting the figures together usually only took me a few weeks or so. But I had been twiddling my thumbs dragging things out running my experiments and over again until the idea of stopping of writing of graduating seemed impossible. I'd put a little warning on the wall above my desk to whip myself into shape. Twenty minutes of writing a day or else. Where else what I wondered. Anyone could see it was an empty threat. After twenty minutes of doodling I, pulled out the journal entry from years ago that I kept hidden in the bowels of my desk to read on those days when I was frustrated with my work. When I was feeling low and lonely and useless and hopeless. Or when I wished, I had a job that paid me more than the seventeen thousand dollars stipend to stretch through a quarter and this expensive college town. Dear God. Buzz is going to prom and he has a suit on. Its Navy blue with a pink tie and pink pocket square. T. B. M. had to order the suit special because buzzes so tall that they didn't have anything for him in the store. We spent all afternoon taking pictures of him and we were all laughing and hugging. TB M. was crying and saying you're so beautiful over and over. And the LIMO came to pick buzz up. So he could pick his date up. and. He stuck his head out of the SUNROOF waved at us. He looked normal. Please, God. Let him stay like this forever. My brother died of a heroin or. Three months later. This story was an excerpt written and performed by Jesse from her novel Transcending Kingdom. Transcendent Kingdom is available now on shelves. The music in this episode was created by Tim Car plus. You might recognize his name from previous episodes. He helps us out a lot on the show and he's just an all around a wonderful dude. You should definitely check out his music by Google Lean Tim car plus. Thank you Jessica Spitz and Eric Simonov from. W. As well as the folks over at nop and thank you to Tim Car plus for mixing this episode. Go, check out Shane Miller's original comment for this episode he works really hard on making these. So if you could, you could just find these at our instagram and twitter story bound pod. Story bound is arranged produced and hosted by me. Jude brewer are executive producers. Jeff Umbro the pod. And just Alvarez of, lit up. The show's shows was developed by grain table and thank you. This out show sample. Tells me think of the show while you can find us on twitter a story about pod or you can tweet at me directly at Judy Brewery. New episodes are released every Tuesday. Next week, you'll hear an original story by Phil Cli-. I wanted to take a quick moment to talk to you about the digital book world or Dwi as some refer to it as. Dwi is the annual gathering of the wide world of publishing which will bring together the innovators, experts and newsmakers of the publishing industry. This year's DB W takes place at a digital event from September fourteenth through September sixteenth, and the conference will feature some publishing's most influential leaders also present the twenty twenty digital book World Awards. Registration for the d-w is available at Digital Book World Dot Com listeners can use the Code Pot agglomerate for complementary registration. Pug Glamorous CEO Jeff Umbro associate publisher of lit hub. Just an Alvarez both executive producers of story bound will be speaking about the state of literary podcasts. So it's worth checking out DWI. Again will take place between September fourteenth and September Sixteenth just go to digital book World Dot Com. Hours days weeks a ton of cocaine hours, days weeks a ton of cocaine powers. Attack? Cocaine hours, days, weeks, attack cocaine I've met him on Okay Cupid Okay Cupid. Okay cupid hours. Cuba needs. Cuban hours days weeks attack cocaine. Ours. Ours. MEEKS the bright red of their brains power. The break read took cocaine. Okay cupid the great red of okay cupid. Sonic universe. Hey I just wanted to check in you real quick the talk about get booked. It's a weekly podcast for personalized recommendations. Get booked will allow you the listener to right in with your specific reading recommendation requests whether there for you or your book club for a gift or anything else hosts and former independent booksellers. Nelson and Jan Northington will answer your requests using their years of combined book selling expertise and no request is too niche. You WanNa feel good sci fi romp with found family aside of romance. No problem how about you're looking for perfect book for Your Dad who has only ever read history of World War Two well, Amanda Jen are on it. Needs something for your book club to read that will actually make the members you know to read the book done and done in addition to their weekly personalized reading recommendations show Amanda and Jen give you bonus mini episodes every week where they sell you on one underrated book that they love in ten minutes or less get booked is brought to you by book riot, North America's largest independent book site get. Every Thursday on your podcast of choice.

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Addiction and It's Affects EP-09

Weekly Infusion

15:32 min | 2 years ago

Addiction and It's Affects EP-09

"Mm-hmm. Opiates opioids and the problems they caused or headlights daily, but this drugs use actually started thousands of years ago. This chapter tackles addiction had its fiscal effects. We're joined by Dr Hannah limpkey social festive sokaiya tree behavioral sciences at Stanford University and by longtime Franco's, Mike Catherwood self having recovered from addiction. He provides us with his first hand account of what it's like to be dictated and how Dr dot com presents the history of opium. For nine addiction and its physical effects. Word addiction as I mentioned earlier comes from a Latin word that means enslaved or bound to it's a complicated chronic relapsing brain disease that it's characterized by drug seeking and used despite adverse harmful consequences, the negative consequences can manifest in health issues legal problems work or school related difficulties. Financial problems interpersonal problems medical problems, this is a biological disorder. And it's coming by psychological processes such as minimization rationalization denial justification blame. Despite the fact that addiction and alcoholism considered the result of character flaws are or moral failings at different times in history. The disease concept has been recognized and champion all the way back to Benjamin rush the signer of the declaration of independence and widely himself considered the father of American addiction father American medicine, he asserted its validity at the time. The country was founded two hundred fifty years ago. Now, the DSM five manual now. Use the word. Word disorder instead of addiction. The term still refers to substance related use that stem from Houston abusive everything from caffeine cannabis to opioids the DSM five defines it further by using the diagnostic criteria of mild moderate or severe whatever the prevailing nomenclature, people agree that addiction is a complex biological disorder with a genetic basis that is influenced by the environment by Catherine. I think like most kids I got involved in drinking alcohol in high at high school age. And there was I think. I'm a kid of the eighties. So there are definitely was exposed to this just say no mentality in and this notion that drugs. Were going to ruin my life remind tire life. But once I found drinking alcohol, and I got the sense of being neabry aided and how comfortable that felt for me and not only comfortable, but almost enlightening. There's a sense that aware has been all my life. I knew that. I couldn't just stop there. And so then I obviously the next step was marijuana. But. It was only a matter of time before I was introduced to real hard narcotics. And there just wasn't any barrier between me and those drugs like most people, I think that there'd be some fear. There'd be some reluctance. I had already been like I said exposed to the feeling of being neabry aided. And I knew that that was not only. Okay. It was correct. For me. Those the best way to describe it like that was completely correct for me and how I'm supposed to live my life biologically. Speaking addiction, engages and affects many regions of the brain at different stages of addiction process initially consumption, the drug is likely voluntary, of course, depending on the substance or the setting but the usca quickly escalate to a loss of volition control. But opioids enter the bloodstream they quickly make their way to the brain where the attached to opioid receptors the addictive opioids, primarily the you Opie receptor, they trigger the release of dopamine. Secondarily, Porsche, the brain called, the nucleus accumbens dopamine as neuro transmitter that conveys a message to the brain that the behavior engaged in his something that promotes survival something to repeat do that. Again, also released during like Saks and eating and other activities that promote survival tolerance to opioid is an unfortunate side effect brain cells that been exposed to them repeatedly become less responsive over time. In addition to creating tolerance and initiating. The reward system the stress system is eventually activated over periods of use of any substance is thought to be mediated through corticotropin-releasing factor hormone involved in the stress response, it's important to note that in addiction the ramping up of rewards and the ramping up of the stress system coincide with the dampening of executive functioning the frontal parts of the brain tend to work less. Well tolerance, of course, requires the user to use more the drug to achieve the desired response or even to feel normal Dutch at Olympic hat. Happens when opiates use long terms at the brain adapts that you need higher and higher doses. To get the same effect that in fact, opioids can make pain worse over the long haul by changing the paint threshold a through this process of neuro adaptation of it's really counter intuitive. Right that opioids would actually make pain worse. But we do see that it's a real clinical phenomenon. And there are data merging now that and my own clinical experience shows that when you take chronic pain patients and lower their opiates or get them off entirely. They're paying actually improves obviously during the tapering withdrawal process. Their pain is a lot worse. But once they're off or stabilized a lower dose. They often report improvement in function improvement technician and proven a mood and also improvement in pain opioids cannot damage the brain lurk other drugs, but they can't permanently or alter functioning of certain regions normal boat. Obey chal processes can be damp. And because even though the pleasure associated with the drug they have subsided. With tolerance the continued activation of the reward apparatus at the nucleus. Accumbens causes a preoccupation of focus and motivational priority upon getting that reward. So all the other rewards eating interpersonal discourse sex, work, whatever it might have been these things drop and the primary focus becomes activating the nucleus accumbens with the drug of choice. A way to think about this is that the liking of the drug tends to disappear, but the wanting remains despite the fact attic knows that using the drug will result in detrimental processes, Mike Catherwood addicts that I talked to people that I talked to meetings. We all share that same feeling that. It's it's like it's like drinking poison. You know, you it changes me in such a way that all these fears all the all the hesitation that most normal people have it just completely went away. There was no there was absolutely nothing. Stopping me from putting anything in my body that I knew was going to in any way, intoxicate me. I was so thoroughly convinced that I was a loser. And that I didn't have anything really. Markedly exceptional to do with my life, or or was going to build anything of note with my life that I so I just had no problem thinking why not ride this out as best? I can now enjoy myself as best as possible and take away the discomfort of just being myself there. There was no there was no stakes for me because I didn't feel like I was losing anything if soaked heaven forbid I pass away heaven forbid, I go to jail. I it didn't. There wasn't any. There wasn't any real stakes in my mind, because I wasn't compromising anything I wasn't gambling with anything because I had no vision of anything positive coming my way, you know. So for someone who's in medical school for someone who's going to college to to study, a major that they really are passionate about I think that there's a big difference there because you that person definitely sees that. They're there. Gambling was something of of substance the genetic element in addiction is very obvious one way to think about this is that sixty percent of persons vulnerability to addiction is on the basis of genetics alone. Several candidate genes have been identified and doubtedly others will be discovered, and of course, the environment plays an instrumental role as well to factors absolutely crucial. When it comes to determining who is at risk brain development during infancy, important and childhood trauma. How the brain develops the first two years of life seems to have important effect. If the child's needs are not appropriately met during the crucial initial two years and overactive stress response system. My result. As a result chemicals that are necessary for normal brain growth may be deficient and causes impairments of affect regulation motivation reward and behavioral inhibition, if these systems are compromised social relationships can be affected an increase, the likelihood of addiction Dutch Anneliese addiction like most mental illnesses is rooted in a stress vulnerability dialysis. And by that I mean that we all come to substance use with varying degrees of vulnerability, and that innate vulnerability will will predict, you know, whether or not exposure leads to addiction, and how severe that addiction is and included in vulnerability is not just your inherited genetics during the DNA you're born with. But also the DNA that essentially now now we know with the whole field of epigenetics changes over time. So basically what? Happens which is really fascinating is that childhood development inch pallet experiences will cause your DNA to change in the sense that different proteins will be expressed depending upon what you experience in life. So if you experienced serious childhood trauma, that's gonna change your telomeres that's going to change your protein expression. And you'll end up with, you know, different DNA than somebody who didn't have that kind of trauma. And typically what we know. Now is that that kind of early trauma changes DNA in a way that makes people more vulnerable to addiction. Why that is I don't think anybody really knows you can speculate till the cows come home, you know, in an interesting interesting as I think about addiction addiction, for example, as an attachment disorder that people are, you know, who do not get especially early in life. The kind of healthy attachments to primary caregivers that they need to sustain, you know. A full in rewarding life than turn to substances as their primary. Attachment etcetera trauma in childhood victimization has similar effect on the brain very similar. In fact, the adverse childhood experiences study in two thousand four reveal the traumatic experiences are very common and result in medical issues as well as a myriad of neurodevelopmental changes that may result in motivation for seeking relief through psychoactive substances trauma, again diminishes the brain's ability to make new connections. It results in walled off emotional systems that cannot be regulated the shattering of the usual regulatory processes deprives the victims of the opportunity to build the capacity to regulate emotions feelings become too prolonged too intense and too negative by Catherine. I was escaping the idea of being myself that you know, and I think that I had finally found something that data done that. So well, so thoroughly that it filled that that. I could check off that box of. Oh my gosh. I finally found something that meant made sense to me. Now, I don't need to escape any tremendous amount of pain or I don't have a an overall desire to not be who I am. But what I do have is a passionate love affair with drugs and alcohol like a deep a almost impossible to describe with words love, and and and and a romantic connection to drugs and alcohol people take drugs for really two reasons. Well, three reasons feel good feel better perform better sometimes curiosity if addiction occurs. The brain is forever alter young people should be very careful as -veloping brains are particularly vulnerable to the insults of many substances while there's no single smoking gun risk factor. Genetics and environment, of course, will be the determining factors. Our brains are wired to ensure. Sure that we will repeat life-sustaining activities and some of that is by associating them with pleasure or just the biology of reward mind, you pleasure and reward or two different things wanting and liking or two different systems in the brain can find the drug no longer pleasurable. But that reward system still has repeating the behaviors and as the disease progresses it affects judgment decision making learning memory, fundamental thought processes logic fall victim to the disease. And of course, then polls in our relationships as well. And some of this pending the drug of choice may be permanent. Thank you, all of our experts who weighed in this critical period in the history of opium and opiates. I wanna thank our staff at Dr dot com, particularly Michelle POE for pulling this open series together read the entire series and our weekly medical articles of well, all Dr dot com. Sure to join our Email list, you get it automatically, and please tell a friend. CBD's everywhere. Right. Everyone's talking about them. And it's topic that I get asked all the time bottom line on CD. Although they are way more claims made about them clinical evidence right now, it's not all that clear, but many people are using it and reporting great results, and they are very incurring. So I wanna I defined exactly what I'm talking about. Here. CBD is can have dial an extract from him. Well, you might associate with marijuana CD does not cause reinforcement. It does not three and component of him. But it is was responsible for the calming or some of the relaxing affects many people experience not the high now about the products. There are a ton of them on the market today forgetting, the vast array of the reported health benefits, it's important to be aware of what you're by institute to a company called select CBD, an Oregon based company than focuses on high quality ingredients and manufacturing standards. Not the hype their CD based products are available in a wide range of formulations flavors each which is described you. So you can make an informed decision without all those promises that are probably to be true. Like, I said the reported benefits of CBD by individuals using. This are very compelling. I'm excited to see how things develop as the science catches up with his booming industry as usual. The public is head of the science. I can't make explicit claims yet. But boy, the reports are pretty encouraging. So if you're ready to try CBD curves, you at checkout select CBD, learn more go to Dr dot com slash select. That's on my site. Dr drew dot com slash S, E L E C. And for a limited time, you can save twenty five percent of checkout with the code. Dr grew DR DR w again, the draw com slash select. And then the code DR, dairy w.

pain Dr dot com CBD nucleus accumbens Mike Catherwood opium marijuana Benjamin rush Dr Hannah limpkey DSM relapsing dopamine Stanford University attachment disorder Olympic hat Oregon Houston usca Saks
PEP Talk  Trickery of the Food Industry  Episode #13

Pep Talks

19:39 min | 1 year ago

PEP Talk Trickery of the Food Industry Episode #13

"This is Dr Jackie and welcome to today's pep talk. The trickery of the food industry before I jump into the heart of today's pep talk. I have some information I wanNA share with you on my website. Pep FOR LIFE DOT Com. I have added a new page where you can send me questions that you would like to have answered on the pep talk podcast. I really WanNa feel a sense of community with you and I thought if you had the opportunity to send me questions you might feel and I might feel a little. Bit more connected. The questions could range from inquiries pertaining to relationships habit development stress management as well as of course nutrition and physical activity remember in addition to me being a licensed therapist. I am also a certified nutrition coach and a certified personal trainer so please take advantage of my whole health approach to wellness and ask any questions associated with physical and emotional health on the podcast. I will not use your last name and if you would prefer to simply utilize an alias. When you submit your questions please feel free to do so. You may also include in your submission whether you would like for me to use your name or not on the podcast. When I answer your question. The submitted question page is purely for questions to be answered on the podcast. They that are about podcast. So if you have questions regarding services or something else related to the practice feel free to simply call me with those questions. The answer question page is truly four questions related to the podcast that you would like to have answered on the podcast the second tidbit of Information. I WANNA share is. I'm offering twenty dollars off through the month of March on my e program pep for Life Transformational System Bundle. We are in the third month of the New Year and I recognize eating. More healthily is often a gold people set for themselves at the start of the new year since its March and spring is right around the corner thank you. You might be interested in utilizing this month as a kickstart to a healthier eating plan. If you've not already done so this year the pepper life transformational system bundle includes both of my e programs which are the transformation nutrition Diet and the twenty one day transformational nutrition cleanse as. You know I'm not a fan of diets. So the transformational nutrition diet is really not a diet it truly is a lifestyle however since many people google the word. Diet when they're looking for ways to eat healthily I included diet in the program name. Both of these programs include a wealth of information. The Transformational Nutrition Diet. Assist you in learning how to implement a healthy approach to nutrition and also touches on the psychological element of eating in the program. I reviewed tips with regards to grocery shopping. And what to look for. When you're reading labels. It also includes Paleo type recipes as well as a meal plan the twenty one day transformational nutrition cleanse follows an autoimmune protocol approach to eating and that's also known as the AIP approach to eating. It is Paleo however it also removes some additional foods which can be inflammatory nature particularly for individuals who are already experiencing health issues. The cleanse includes a done for you meal plan for the entire twenty one days. I outline everything that you are to eat for breakfast lunch dinner and snacks and I've also included in the program all of the recipes that you need for the twenty one days. There are also a list of supplements that are recommended. However they're not required to complete the cleanse I not only covered detoxifying detoxification for your body through nutrition. Also review other strategies that can assist with detoxification of your body as well as for your mind and for your soul. The programs can be purchased individually however preferred that their purchased together hence me offering a discount this month on the bundle. I like for people to with the transformational nutrition. Diet to get a foundation for why nutrition is important and also how to begin transforming their own eating style two style that includes more wholefoods it assistant individual in creating a healthy lifestyle since the cleanse is a I P it can be a little tougher to follow because of the food limitations and it can create some unpleasant side effects if you jump right into bed versus starting with the Paleo approach to eating I so the coupon code for the Bundle Discount is pep twenty again. That is pep. Twenty P. E. P. Two zero so that stands for physical emotional power two zero so pep two zero. And if you want more information about the programs please feel free to go onto the website and click on the TAB E programs. And there's you know even more detailed information about the programs and then that's the place that you can go also then to purchase the bundle if you would like to in fact. Let me also mention another resource on my website. That's available on the programme's pages wills on the resource page. I have to online dispensaries where you can purchase health and beauty products including supplements and this includes the supplements for the twenty one day cleanse if you were to choose to use the supplements during the clients. I am a stickler about clean products particularly with regards to supplements and Food and anything that we put on our body and this is why I have connected with full script and well avait as resources. If you create an account through full script or well of aid you will receive twenty percent off of any of the products that they offer. Not all supplements are the same. And it's vital to have clean quality products as part of your health routine so if you create an account through elevators full script. I can send you product recommendations so for example if you're looking for a supplement to support focus or to support your immune system. You could let me know this. And if you've created an account through elevate or through full script than I can just send you a link through the dispensary that includes recommendations for products that might be helpful so again Those though online dispensaries full script while avait those are located on my website on the resources page as well as on the programs page. Okay so let's get on with the heart of today's pep talk the very fact that I have to e programs available for purchase on my website suggests that I feel very strongly about nutrition and its impact on one's physical and emotional health. And if you have worked with me individually. You know this to be very true. I believe strongly nutrition is a foundational element to health. If someone's diet consists primarily of processed foods and is void of nutrient dense whole foods at some point that individual is going to experience health issues. I recognize that might be a bit of a bold statement however it is something that I truly believe is to be the truth. The symptoms might start small. It might start with headaches that you experienced several times. A month or indigestion indigestion after most of your meals it may present his anxiety or depression or pms symptoms or aches and pains in functional medicine. Any symptom is the body's way of alerting the individual that something is wrong and it to me. It is just frightening. How as a society? We've become accustomed to symptoms of physical and emotional discomfort as just part of everyday life and that just simply is not how we have to live. We can choose to live that way however for everyone that I work with. I want to ensure that they know it is not required to live this way the body was created to eat real food not processed food like substances created in a lab. Real food contains the nutrients required to be healthy physically as well as emotionally think about all the nutrients that are needed for the body to function. For EXAMPLE IT REQUIRES MINERALS. Vitamins HEALTHY FATS. And Amino acids foods created in a lab do not contain the necessary nutrients to obtain and sustain optimal wellness. Processed foods are high glycemic meaning that they negatively impact blood sugar. There are low in fiber. They contain excessive pesticides. Hormones antibiotics and chemicals in fact. Did you know the Food Industry? Purposefully manufacturers food to target certain parts of the brain so that you will consume more of their foods. I was listening to the brain warriors. Way podcast with Dr Daniel Ayman and he was interviewing Dr David. Pearl matter who wrote the Book Grain Brain. This is the book where he thoroughly discussed the damaging effects of sugar as well as processed carbohydrates with regards to the body. And the Brain. He now has a new book that's called Brainwash and in this book. He discusses how the very foods that individuals are. Consuming are hindering them from making healthy choices. The doctors explained the nucleus. Accumbens is the pleasure center of the brain and manufacturing companies. Purposefully hijack the nucleus accumbens. So you will eat more of the foods. They manufacture in fact. The doctors explained that. The food industry hires neuroscientist to assist in creating foods. Which are the perfect amount of crunchiness melting and saltiness as Dr Ayman said these types of foods take over the pleasure center of the brain where cocaine and heroin work now. I want you to take that in. I want you to think about that for a minute. The receptor sites where cocaine and heroin work in the brain are the same receptor sites to food. Industry is activating through the food's manufacturer. I also kind of as a side note. I also WANNA mention that in another interview. I believe it was also with Dr Ayman. He explained that when casing in dairy is mixed with stomach acids it produces a substance that works on the heroin and opioid centers of your brain so again another way in which were feeding. Those receptor sites is through through dairy. This is in part why it's so hard to step away from dairy and from processed foods because they are stimulating. That pleasure center of your brain and your brain is telling you it just wants more and more and more. I think for most people they would recognize that using heroin or cocaine is unhealthy. I believe even people who abuse these substances. No it's not healthy for them however many people struggle to recognize. They're hurting their bodies. By consuming foods that work on the same receptor sites as heroin and cocaine Dr Pearl. Mutter indicated that functional M. R. I.'s are utilized to determine what it is about food that lines up with pleasure centers of the brain. The food industry has accidents access to functional. Mri's and as Dr Ayman passionately expressed in the podcast. He was sharing that for years. He could not get scans of his patients. Brains and his whole purpose was to assist in diagnosing and treating has patients trying to help them and yet as as both. The doctors were saying functional M. R. I.'S. Are Readily available for the food industry in order to manipulate the consumer and in my opinion to poison the consumer as Dr Pearl Mutter explained what we eat now will determine what we choose to eat in the future in other words when people choose to eat nutrient void processed foods. They are hindering. Their prefrontal CORTEX for making healthy decisions about food. The prefrontal CORTEX assists with healthy decision. Making and it also allows an individual to think about the consequences of choices including food choices. And if you're nucleus accumbens is overactive. You may struggle with healthy decision making in general not just decisions pertaining to food also processed foods create inflammation in the body as well as the brain and it hinders the prefrontal cortex from working properly so eating processed foods creates a double punch it will over stimulate the nucleus accumbens and it will impede the prefrontal. Cortex as Dr Pearl. Mutter explained good thoughtful decision making that looks to the future. Occurs in that prefrontal CORTEX. I believe it was Dr Pearl Mona that referred to it as the adult so thinking peace. He said when you're when you're prefrontal CORTEX is working. The adult is in the room so he was explaining that the the prefrontal cortex required for thoughtful healthy decision. Making it is also the area of the brain where that's connected with compassion and empathy Dr Pearl Mutter indicated that people who present with narcissistic type tendencies typically have a prefrontal cortex that is not working properly and I mean I hear quite frequently about referring to other people as having narcissistic tendencies of my thought is wow through nutrition. We might be able to help people to be less self focused. So just think about that for a minute. The prefrontal CORTEX assists with healthy decision. Making so all decision making not just that pertaining to food but all decision making and it also allows us to feel compassion and empathy for others. Now don't you think that these are pretty significant functions that we need in our day to day lives to not only be healthy for ourselves but to be healthy for those around us. We need our prefrontal CORTEX to be online. We need for it to function properly and one significant way to do. This is eating nutrient dense whole foods. Now just as well aside now I will also remind you that last last moments podcasts. I also shared that meditation. Assess inactivating the prefrontal. Cortex so to wonderful things that you could be. Adding into your routine would be working on eating nutrient dense foods and doing meditation and these are two things that would very much help with helping you to make healthy decisions as well as helping you in relationships. I recognize that it takes energy to choose to select healthy foods versus mindlessly grabbing quick readymade toxic foods however. I cannot think of anything. That's more important than selecting foods that nourish US and help us to make healthy life choices choices while also helping us to simply be a better human because we can experience compassion and empathy. I encourage you to be mindful of the foods. You're putting into your body. I recognize overhauling. Your nutritional intake feel overwhelming. So I encourage you to do it one step at a time. It could be replacing one and healthy beverage a day with one water. It could be adding more green veggies in cheer meals all about the green veggies. Just put those Ca- Collard Greens chard and Kale and a food processor. Grind them up and just start adding up to everything that you cook and especially if it's meat dishes you can just add all that in there and it just it takes on the flavor of everything else. You won't even know that they're there but it will provide you with a ton of minerals and healthy fat soluble vitamins. That we need as well. This does not need to be an all or nothing approach to eating. In fact in order to make true life changes it changes. We typically need to take incremental steps. So I encourage you to start small. Do just one thing to start taking steps to include more whole foods into your diet and remember eating healthily does not mean that you bland food. This could not be further from the truth. Nutrient dense foods are full of mazing flavors and they are so satisfying because you're providing your body with the nutrients that it needs to be healthy and to function optimally and if you need some help finding recipes that that are nutrient dense. Remember that I have the two free recipe books on my website and also during the month of March my pepper life transformational system bundle is twenty dollars off with that. Coupon Code of Pep Twenty and it also includes additional recipe that are not in the free e books so do not forget to submit your questions my website pep for Life Dot Com. So any questions that you want answered on the podcast. Be sure to go to that. Submit Your Questions Tab and enter those questions there again that that TAB is titled. Submit a question and it's actually right next to the PODCAST TAP. Thank you so much for joining me today and I encourage you to do one thing purposefully to attain true pop.

Dr Daniel Ayman Dr Pearl Mutter Dr Pearl heroin nucleus accumbens pleasure center cocaine Dr Jackie it assistant M. R. I. Dr Pearl Mona AIP Ca- Collard Greens Accumbens US
5 Truths You Must Accept to Battle Addiction

Addiction Unlimited Podcast | Alcoholism | 12 Steps | Living Sober | Addiction Treatment

36:26 min | 1 year ago

5 Truths You Must Accept to Battle Addiction

"Hey everybody welcome to the addiction. Unlimited podcast where you get to learn everything you want to know about addiction and recovery. I'm your host. Angela Pugh co-founder of Kansas City recovery life coach and recovering alcoholics to learn more about me. You can listen to episodes zero zero on your podcast APP or find us on the web at Addiction. UNLIMITED DOT com. Hey everybody welcome some two episode number eighty nine of the addiction unlimited podcast. I'm your coach Angela. Pew here to help you get that clean and sober Uber Life. You want thank you for hanging out with me today. I hope your New Year has been awesome so far I've been thinking about you guys and wondering how many of you took some time to write down your New Year intentions. Most of my sessions in December and January are exactly this like I work with a lot of people who do not have addiction struggles to like a life coach and those those clients have definitely been lining up to get their intentions on paper and get a process in place to make sure they could achieve everything they want this year and many of my clients with addiction have been doing the same thing in some of those who are really early in sobriety. We've been working on focusing on some of those micro decisions and small victories and also plugging in some non drinking rewards in life and all of that stuff stuff is just part of my process of coaching people for maximum success and making it super easy to achieve and this ties into our topic today. Five truths you must accept to battle addiction because to be effective in this battle you have have to get clear on what the F. You're doing if you are serious about making progress in anything you have to get clear on your vision. Have a plan and it really needs to be on paper. My first lesson in the importance of writing things down was with my sponsor sponsor. He made me write everything out before I would call him to like complain or vent about anything and literally when I called him the the first thing he asked me as did you write it out and if my answer was no he would just hang up so I would go right out and of course I would feel a thousand thousands times better than I'd call him back and that may sound a bit harsh to you. But I knew he wasn't being mean or unkind in any way EH. He was just asking me to do something good and healthy for myself and when he became my sponsor he told me that this was a part of his process and I agreed to that and committed to doing that work. All he was doing was holding me accountable to what I had already committed to in. This was a huge piece of my growth and a habit that I've continued for all these years. He was teaching me self care and personal responsibility and how to take small actions to bring myself relief. He wasn't enabling me he was is making me follow through on my commitment. I had to learn to be independent rather than codependent because I was being lazy Z.. Really and not writing it out or I wanted instant gratification by calling him and having him solve all my problems for me that's what creates dependence. I couldn't be codependent and depend on him to give me relief. I had to learn to do things to solve my own problems to depend on myself to understand understand who I am and do the necessary things to make myself feel better right if he would have enabled me and took my calls without making me follow through with my responsibilities then I would have continued to be lazy. I would have not learned how to care for myself and I would have depended on him to solve everything for me instead. He gave me the tools and he expected me to stand on my own and do do the things I said I would do. He made me responsible for myself and my actions. And I want you to think about this carefully because you WANNA get sober. You WANNA stay sober. You want your anxiety to stop driving you crazy. You want to stop up worrying. You want to understand what your future will look like. You want all your relationships to get better. You WanNa feel better but you want it to happen an instantly without doing any worker being uncomfortable and there is no magic wand that I can wave and make all your troubles go away if I could do the work for everyone and make everyone sober and happy instantly. I would do it I promise you I would. I would do it for everyone but as we live in reality. It doesn't actually work that way. There is no one big action you can take to magically be fixed. It's a series of small actions. It's being committed to doing what's right for you doing things that make you feel good about yourself off that bring you relieve. It's in those tiny micro decisions. We make hundreds of times a day like deciding to ride did out instead of looking for the shortcut and looking for something or someone else to give you the relief you want when you want to feel better and feel better about yourself and your life. You are the only one that can do that work and make it happen when we're codependent. We rely on others to make us feel better now fast. Forward a bit when I was in college I don't remember. I don't remember what part of college because I've studied a lot of things but probably when I was studying. Neuro psychology human psychology or may be behavior psych. I Dunno but anyway I learned that writing things out is actually its own therapeutic process. Assess it's very healing and a great way to process through things then fast forward from there throughout my coaching career. As I I progressed and trained more Got Certified at Higher Levels Learn More coaching techniques and high level achievement stuff. I started learning the importance of writing down your plan or vision and goals and I read this on INC DOT COM and I wanted to share it with you. It said had you are forty two percent more likely to achieve your goals. If you write them down writing your goals down not only forces forces you to get clear on what exactly it is you want to accomplish but doing so plays a part in motivating you to complete complete the tasks necessary for your success. That's huge and probably the first little micro decision that most people F- up honestly that little tiny decision to take ten minutes to put it on paper or blow it off and just keep it in your head. You're already setting yourself up for failure. You know I'm all about micro decisions and I'm all about creating huge changes in life in only ten to fifteen minutes a day. That's it if you can commit to taking action just ten to fifteen minutes per day you you will be blown away at how much you can accomplish and how much you can change yourself your feelings and your life. It's proven Rueben stuff my friends. You can't argue a science and research you don't even have to commit to ten to fifteen minutes at one time. Do five minutes in the morning five at lunch and five before or bed. I don't care that all of that being said I wanted to lay some groundwork for you for those of you who are really ready to stop screwing around and get serious about making changes. I wanted you to know from the start that taking pen to paper is your best. Bet You can get a pen and paper and take everything we talk about today and spend ten tiny minutes putting your thoughts on paper or listing some intentions. So you're clear and ready to achieve and so you don't have to take notes or worry about coming back later and listening again when you can. Dan take notes. I've already done it for you at. WWW DOT my recovery toolbox dot com forward slash blog. This episode owed is in written form with all five things. That we're GonNa talk about highlighted for your convenience and I will link that in the show notes of course so you can get there right from your podcast APP. WWW DOT my recovery toolbox dot com forward slash blog and. If you're on the email list I will send this link out to the whole email list so you can just click one link and have it all at your tiny little sober fingertips. Okay now. Let's get into this topic today. Five truths you must accept to beat addiction. Eight number. One addiction is not a weakness friends. I am not weak and I'm saying that in all caps I am not week. I'm an addict through and through and that does not make make me a weak person. You are not weak because you have alcoholism and you can't heal yourself with sheer willpower. An inner strength. If it worked like that then everybody would get clean and sober with little effort and live happily ever after and we wouldn't have fourteen eighteen thousand treatment centers in America. You have to get real about what is happening here in stop focusing on your pride and Ego Oh being bruised because you convince yourself it's a weakness. Put Your pride and ego in hurt feelings aside. Okay this isn't about you. This is about out your brain addiction changes your brain. I don't care how big and strong you think you are. You can't change science. It's and here's the brain deal addiction affects. What is called the pleasure center in our brain when we make money money or have a great meal have a drink? A pill have sex when happy things happen your brain releases dopamine for pleasure drugs and alcohol cause a flood of dopamine which is why it feels so good then your brain stores that memory Marie as a shortcut to pleasure and creates an automatic response of Associating Drugs and alcohol with pleasure. Listen to this this is I found this from Harvard. It's an older article by it. Explains it so clearly I wanted to use these pieces of it. Repeated exposure to an addictive substance or behavior causes nerve cells in the nucleus accumbens and the prefrontal frontal cortex which is the area of the brain involved in planning and executing tasks it causes those areas to communicate in a way that couples liking liking. Something with wanting it in turn driving us to go after it. That is this process. AH SAYS MOTIVATES US to take action to seek out the source of pleasure now. I don't know how strong you think you are. But if you believe you can jump in there and get your neurotransmitters to behave differently and get all those chemical responses to do it your way. Then you aren't human. This process has nothing to do with your strength or weakness. It's science this is why we call it a brain disease into me. This is what we mean in a way when we talk about powerlessness this is a brain illness. It changes the process in in your brain. You have no control over that. The word powerless doesn't mean I'm weak and powerless in my life. It means there's a process happening inside of me that I have no power over. That's how it makes sense to me. Other people may view it a little differently. I don't know but I assure you I am not week. I'm not powerless in my life. And neither are you. If you get stuck in this victim role playing the victim feeling sorry for yourself because you think you're weak. What you're actually doing is dodging responsibility? If you can find a way to blame it on something or someone else then you don't have to take responsibility for yourself and your actions. I took the actions that created my alcoholism by drinking drinking alcohol for an extended period of time which caused my brain to be hijacked because alcohol and drugs or poison. Okay truth bomb. I poisoned myself over and over over again you are poisoning yourself. No one else is doing that for you. I took the actions that created my alcoholism and now I have take the actions to create my sobriety. The problem holding you back isn't alcoholism or being a week human most of the time. It's just laziness I truly believe ninety. Nine percent of the problem is laziness. You don't WanNa go to meetings of vinnie store. You don't want to tell anyone you don't WanNa start journaling. You don't WanNa do any exercise you don't want to practice reshaping your mindset. You don't want to go to treatment. You don't want to spend any money you don't WanNa take time off work. You don't WanNa be uncomfortable or feel bad. You don't WanNa do anything. Alcoholism is not a weakness however laziness is and. That's totally in your power to change. And you know I talk about this. Why Talk About Laziness? Ns because it's my biggest affliction. This is the thing that I battle on a daily basis. But it's also why all of my coaching and all of my programming is created created to be as easy as possible. Because I have to spend my whole life coming up with. I call him sober hacks right I have to come up with sober hacks to make my sobriety easy for me to achieve because really internally on a core level I am lazy. I don't WanNa do anything anything either. That's why make it as easy as humanly possible for you but being an addict is not a weakness and sometimes James. It's kind of weird because where I want to support you guys in your journey and getting through some of these challenging thoughts at the same time. It's like when you're telling me that you feel like it's a weakness in something's wrong with you and your defective you're saying the same thing about me and that's just simply not the truth true. I am not wheat. There is nothing weak about me and I am an addict. So it's not a weakness. Okay big number two the loss of control. It doesn't matter if you drink three glasses of wine or a gigantic gigantic bottle of vodka. It doesn't matter if you drink once a year or twelve hours a day when you're drinking or drug use starts bugging bugging you when you're thinking about it more often when you recognize. You're doing it more than you want to. When you start putting rules around it like I'm only going to do it on the weekends? All only drink wine. I'll only drink after five. pm I will only drink after the kids are in bed. I will have a glass of water between each cocktail. All only have one drink an hour. I will never drink hard alcohol only beer and wine Yada Yada Yada. You know all the rules rules we try to make and we usually screw that up to and I know that because you wouldn't be listening to a podcast and seeking knowledge if you were doing it in a healthy way you have to get to a place that you understand. This is no longer within your control. When you're making those rules and breaking them and disappointing in yourself it's because you have lost control when you are trying desperately to control something it's because you've already lost control? I bring this up because so many of you want to stop overdrinking but you don't want to commit to stopping completely -pletely and it makes me sad to be honest because you have yourself on a merry go round where you're just going in circles and you end up in the exact spot where you started still drinking too much still not feeling good about it still in the battle and doing things that embarrass. You're were disappoint you and your family and friends and you will get nowhere because you don't want to admit you've lost control remember. It's science you're you're trying to play a game you can't win it's rigged inside your brain for you to lose. That's why I stayed you all the time. You have have to make a commitment to stop completely because when you have one drink you set a brain response into action. That takes you to the place you don't WanNa be and that's not to say that it's impossible to control it every once in a while. Even I could control my drinking every once in a while mile and I'm a raging drunk but on those few times I controlled my drinking. There was a lot of energy and planning planning that went into controlling it. Like I would make sure I didn't have any alcohol at home. Then I would wait until super late to go out so I only had a couple of hours to drink then I may have even had someone else drive so I couldn't leave early and go to the liquor store all of that just to make sure I didn't drink too much then. I would talk about that one night to everyone. I would tell everybody how grade eight I did. I only had a few drinks. I just wasn't feeling at that night to create this picture that I was in control because I knew I wasn't. If you know you have lost control in the situation stop denying it. This is a life or death situation and you you have to understand that. I know it has to be difficult for those of you. Who Don't drink a ton like I did to understand that you are in a death trap? But I'm here to tell. Oh you are. You've probably already recognized. How manipulative addiction is how it preys on you and it makes you feel bad? It makes you lie and hide things and it will continue to do that if you look closely at your life and the person you are today. I'm sure you can see some differences between you today and you at the beginning of your drinking you can probably recognize some changes. You aren't proud of changes in your personality becoming a person who will tell even little white lies when you never used to do that but coming a person who will have a a few drinks and drive your kids when you know that's not acceptable. He even if you aren't completely drunk. Your reaction time is off. Your attention is is lacking your judgement is impaired. Which I think is obvious by the fact that you will have a few drinks and drive your kids your judgments impaired? Even after only only a couple of drinks. It's not a great idea to drive but we rationalize our actions because we don't want to give up drinking just to drive what I really we want you to understand is alcohol and drugs can kill you in a million ways and you don't have to be all that drunk for it to happen. I can tell you a story of a a woman who after only a few glasses of wine slipped in the shower fell through glass shower door laying on her bathroom floor bleeding to that. Were the DADS who had a few drinks together. While their son's baseball team was playing a game they end up in a fight. One Punch was thrown thrown in as the guy fell to the ground. He hit his head on the Kerb caused his brain to swell and he died an hour later at the hospital. These these are extreme examples. But I want you to understand that this will kill you. It may be in illness. Various cancers that related to alcohol abuse seizures alcohol withdrawal driving drunk like me a simple fall down the stairs because you lost your balance or you get so depressed and sad ad in disappointed in yourself that you take your own life because you feel like you'll never win the battle. There are a million ways that alcohol can cause you harm and and it has nothing to do with who you are how much money you have or how great you think your life is understand. That addiction is progressive. It will will continue to get worse and it will single handedly destroy your life if you give it the chance I promise you. I never thought I would end up in jail while I am not a person who goes to jail. I don't come from a family where jail is normal. Okay but there. I was not because I did anything. Nothing crazy either. I ended up in jail because I had a DUI and you're not supposed to drink while you're going through the legal system but like a good alcoholic. I kept drinking and I got what caught so there. I was in jail because I was so committed to my alcoholism that I wasn't even willing to give it up to avoid avoid jail. That's how crazy this is. I made sure I got my hair done before I went in and I wore comfortable clothes and there I was sitting in jail in my three hundred dollar designer jeans and Louis Vitton loafers surrounded by people who are actual criminals. If you'd think for a moment omen this stuff can't happen to you. Just wait because you aren't in control. If you recognize you've lost control of your drinking and you you don't get committed to stopping. It will continue to get worse and it will ruin you or even worse. Kill you or kill someone else else. which is you know it was almost my story? Numero threes number three. Having a nice life doesn't mean you can't be addicted addiction doesn't have a look and this is huge people. Say to me my clients say to me all the time. This is such a common misconception. They can't understand how they are alcoholic because they don't look like an alcoholic or they have a hard time calling themselves an alcoholic lick because of what that picture looks like to them. We have a picture in our minds of what an alcoholic or drug addict. Looks like and it doesn't I usually look like you. I think most people have a picture of the homeless person or the person who is down on their luck. Maybe a young the person who isn't thriving in life being lazy still living at home not taking care of their responsibilities. And maybe that's the best way to describe it. You tend to think of as an an addict as someone who isn't thriving in life or does it have their shit together in some way. I'll tell you though the very first speed addict I ever worked with. Was a suburban. Mom Doing Carpool to the soccer games every week. She didn't work she. We lived in a house that was almost a million dollars. Her kids went to the best schools and she was stealing her kids at all for energy. And for those of you. Who Don't don't know adderall is a medication commonly prescribed for? Add and Admiral is speed by the way is one of the most addictive substances on the planet or you know another example. This whole wine mommy culture if you think you're the only mom over drinking wine you're sadly mistaken. I could also tell you about a business owner. I worked with a longtime ago multimillionaire. Crazy successful business. Drove one hundred thousand dollar car. You're good looking Guy Gorgeous. Wife who is like one of the sweetest kindest people I've ever met. I love her and he liked to disappear for days as a time hiding out in motels smoking crack with prostitutes. Having a nice life doesn't mean addiction will skip you look at all the celebrities who battled alcoholism and drug addiction and gambling addiction and sex addiction. How many young stars have we? I've seen take their own lives in recent years because the despair and sadness got the best of them Demi Levato didn't start her addiction with heroin heroine. She probably started having a couple of glasses of wine with dinner or at a party. Addiction does not discriminate. It takes who who ever it wants. Get rid of these ridiculous thoughts that you don't look like an alcoholic or a drug addict addiction doesn't have a certain look. You can be rich or poor taller short happier sad if it wants you it will take you and this brings me to number four. You can't do it alone you cannot get sober and stay sober alone. Listen addiction needs a certain set of circumstances in order for it to live and thrive inside of you it needs you to be isolated and lonely on some level it needs you to feel bad about yourself and not believe in yourself. It needs you to have secrets. It's that you are hiding. It needs to be codependent so it can be your savior and when I say isolated. I don't mean that you're never around people or that you're hiding out at home like a hermit. Sometimes that is the case but for me I was around people pretty regularly because I was a bartender and when I wasn't working I would go out with my friends. There were definitely times that it was very much alone at home and feeling sad dad mostly because I would go home at the end of the night right like I would go out to the bars with all my friends but then when I would go home after bars closed I would be by myself than sad but for for the most part I was around people. My isolation really was inside of me because I isolated myself from true through connections. My walls were super high and all my friendships were surface level. Because I needed to hide who I was and my friends weren't real friends. They were drinking friends so I was isolated in the sense that no one knew who I was on the inside. No one knew my struggles or my sadness. I didn't share myself with a single person on the planet. Not My true self and when you aren't connected on a soul level with people who love you. You're isolated in for me me. That changed once. I went to a right where I got all that love and acceptance in. I knew it was safe in those rooms to brealey share who I was into really share. How Sad I was on the inside because every single person in that room knew that same aims sadness? And that's when I got real IM- that's when I came out of isolation and I wasn't hiding myself I couldn't do it alone own. You have to have somebody a few. Somebody's not what you're doing that know what you're going through that can support you. Appropriately League that can create accountability for you right. You can't do it alone and there's no reason to it super lame and lonely and sad bad trying to do it by yourself. Last one number five there is no one path to becoming addicted. Some people have major trauma in drink to escape. Some people have alcoholic or drug addict parents. And they you just follow in their footsteps. Some people have health problems were surgeries and they get pain meds in that sends them down that road to addiction and some some of us. Just drink our way right into alcoholism and others have mental health struggles that lead them to self medicate like anxiety depression in a bipolar disorder. It's not uncommon to start doing something casually in have eventually spiral out of control control again. This goes back to the internal scientific process. That's taking place in your brain. It doesn't matter if it's two drinks or twenty if if you have them on a regular basis your brain will be hijacked non alcoholic. People do not drink enough to ever think about their drinking non alcoholic. People do not think about whether or not there will be alcohol at a gathering. They want to attend. They never think about how much alcohol will be there. Or if they need to bring their own or if they need to stash some so they don't run out non alcoholic people do not plan events around alcohol. They don't spend a bunch of money any on it and they don't put rules on their drinking like we talked about earlier and I promise you non alcoholic people will not ah drink anymore when they do something to embarrass themselves or their families or their partner if they over drink one night and do something crazy they won't do it again if they happen to get a Dui somehow super rare but if a non alcoholic person got a Dui it would be the only one because they will cut out drinking immediately. It's only addicted. People that will continue partaking in substance instance. Even when it's causing problems we keep drinking despite legal troubles. We continue tim you to drink after we get into horrific fights with our spouses or drive our kids when we're under the influence or even after we miss an important meeting or a family event because as we were drunk or hung over non alcoholic. People never wonder if they are alcoholic because they never think about alcohol hall because they don't drink enough to wonder if they are drinking too much and just like there is no one path asked to addiction. There's also not one path to recovery. There are certain things you have to do if you want to recover and be free from all the anxiety in drama and heartbreak of addiction. You have to make a commitment and be diligent in working on yourself. Even when you don't feel like it you have to understand that we lack the ability to moderate in. That's why we can't have just one and you have to share with a few trusted people exactly who you are in the decision you've made you have to share yourself to create accountability and get love and support now before we close is. Let's recap five truths. You must accept to battle addiction. One addiction is not a weakness number. Two you've lost control number three having a nice life doesn't mean you can't be addicted. I don't care how rich you are limiting the rights zip code you've got the House you've got the look where the right clothes. I don't care if addiction once you it's going to take thank you. You can't do it alone. Stop isolating yourself. People stop hiding from who you are. Find some people you trust and love and and that trust and love you and let's get this thing handled. Okay stop trying to do it alone in number five. There's no one path to becoming addicted again. If you're listening to this and wishing you could take some notes I've already done it for you. You can get it at. WWW DOT my recovery toolbox dot com forward slash slash blog. And I will link that in the show notes so you can get it right from your podcast APP and for those of you who want more support and you're ready to take big steps and get it off this rollercoaster ride of clean and relapse sober and relapse making promises to yourself than breaking them. You always work with me directly and I will link that in in the show notes as well and remember to we just did our first round of updates on the recovery starter kit so if you already own the recovery starter kit. It's a great time time to go back through it. Get yourself back on track. Get yourself some new accountability. Just go through that program. Again to a little reboot reset and recharge urge and if you're interested in the starter kit definitely jump over there and grab it at. WWW DOT my recovery toolbox dot com. I'll linked out in the show notes as as well but you have lifetime access to that product. It's super inexpensive. And you'll have it forever as I consistently updated. I'll always updated. Ah I learn new tools and techniques new research so it will kind of always consistently be a new product totally worth the money. It's so cheap you is and and you have it forever. It's a great tool to use forever and ever and ever so that's all I've got for today. I hope you love this episode. I hope there's a lot of great information and again don't worry about grabbing a pen and paper and listening to it again if you don't want to take notes just jump over there and grabbed that on the blog I listed in the show notes. I hope you're having a fantastic day. Thank you again for spending some time with me and I will see you next week. You've reached the end of another great episode of the Addiction. Unlimited podcast candid and honest conversation about addiction and recovery be sure to visit US ED addiction unlimited dot com to join the conversation and access show notes and links to everything we talked about. Love this episode. Please take thirty seconds to subscribed rate and review on itunes to help us improve and give you the information you want. Thanks for listening. See you next week aw

Angela Pugh dopamine Harvard co-founder soccer Kansas City America pleasure center Rueben nucleus accumbens Dan vinnie James bipolar disorder Louis Vitton adderall
Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) and Addiction

Let's Talk Addiction & Recovery

12:17 min | 1 year ago

Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) and Addiction

"Hello and welcome to. Let's talk a series of podcast produced by the Hazel and Betty Ford Foundation on the issues. That matter to us the issues that we no matter to you to new substance use prevention research treatment for addiction and Recovery Management as well as education and advocacy. I'm your host William Warriors and today. We're joined by clinician psychiatrist and medical director. Dr Stephen Delancey welcome Stephen. Thank you William Pleasure to be here and today. Our the topic is capital. A. Capital C. Capital small s the acronym for ACIS which means adverse childhood experiences and it has a a profound impact on mental health and especially on addiction and adult doctor What is a sus? Ace's as you said is stands chance for adverse childhood experiences. These are experiences that individuals go through prior to the age of eighteen. And a a seminal study started in the Mid Nineteen Ninety S in partnership between the Centers of Disease Control and Kaiser Permanent Day looked at over seventeen one thousand individuals across ten different adverse childhood experiences and then followed them out for years to determine how those childhood experiences affected them in adulthood in their general medical health mental health and with addiction childhood experiences kind of childhood experience. So there's ten and there's a questionnaire that practitioners can use two screen for the adverse childhood experiences. They include things like sexual physical and emotional abuse parental separation and divorce Witnessing intimate partner violence in the home household hold substance abuse mental illness in the household incarceration in the household and then emotional or physical neglect. Those are the ten they are measured. And when they're measured you get a score you do for each of those that you're positive it's one point and what happens with that total. Yes so what they have gone on to show in. This study is ongoing as of as of this year. What they've shown is that as you have more and more in a dose response relationship so the more you have the more your risk of major chronic illnesses across heart disease cancer lung disease? Depression suicide and addiction increases exponentially. And that's relevant to what we do at Hazelton Betty Ford because very much so that is the work that needs to be done around. Trauma informed care recognizing acknowledging that many of the individuals individuals who come to us for treatment and put their trust in US have experienced these early childhood traumas that we are going to need to address and understand understand as part of their care so people who have scored Through the through ACIS. How do you equate the impact? Those childhood experiences this is the had on their use of legal or illegal substances alcohol cocaine. Opiates so so I as you get to four or more of those adverse childhood experiences and this is not uncommon more than two thirds of the population has at least one aces has at least has has at least one and twelve and a half one in eight. Americans has four or more adverse childhood experiences and at that level your risk of an alcohol I use disorder is two to four times the general population and seven fold increases in risk of illicit drug four and a half times the risk of depression and twelve times. Risk of suicide How does that happen? There are now ongoing studies. Looking at how adverse childhood experiences experiences change the way that our genes our DNA or read resulting in different transcription of the building blocks of our body and we have now good data to show that adverse childhood experiences can lead to reduced or delayed development of the prefrontal the Cortex an incredibly important part of the brain for controlling our addiction centers and our emotions changes in the nucleus accumbens in the middle. I love these limbic regions that we know are implicated in addiction and major psychiatric illnesses so in a very real sense these experiences and childhood to change the way our genes are red and the way our brains are developed. So let's talk a little bit about prevention as it relates to that context if we know a child called young young teenager has had a series of these impactful experiences. What can the professional or what can the parent? What can the teacher due to perhaps move that child through life's experiences without developing developing a dependency on substances for example wonderful question? And I think I'll start by saying that these again are common experiences and having an the act score that's over zero does not mean right. You're going to have one of these illnesses. Your risk though is elevated so identifying it early and then looking for ways in which we can build resilience within these kids is critically important. How do we support the children both in the home in the school? How do we support the parents especially young parents to follow more positive parenting so that perhaps some of the adverse childhood experiences like abuse? Don't even the happen. There are evidence based prevention strategies that can be embedded into the schools like building assets reducing risk which really a help to create cohorts of kids interacting and supporting each other but then also real meaningful relationships with adults and that is absolutely preventative but of course despite our best efforts we know that people are still going to be vulnerable or susceptible and some are going to develop for example apple a dependency on substances developmental illness. How and you you referred to this briefly? We're we have another podcast. Actually on trauma informed care yes and treatment but but just for the benefit of our viewers and listeners. Now how do you apply an act score to the treatment of somebody who needs help I get your act score. That's really important. And then based upon that determine what level of intervention is going to be needed and this is this is not abstract. There was a recent study that was just published Polish this year two thousand nineteen that looked at individuals. In Rural Tennessee being treated for an opioid use disorder with Mit Medication assisted just a treatment. They found that for every one point on the act score the risk of a relapse increased by seventeen percent. But good news into your point for each appointment that the person went to that was trauma informed. There was a two percent reduction in that risk. So so you can see how the communicative fact of stain and treatment and focused on those traumas can reduce the risk of relapse. I'm impressed and frankly just a little bit alarmed. By the fact that external events that occur in a young person's life can be internalized charlize to the extent that they can affect actually change the brain very much. We talk a little bit more about that. I can't so we always talk about genetics the haired ability ability risk of addiction and mental health illnesses. But there's also a field of study called epigenetics and epigenetics looks at how. How does our environment our life experiences affect how those genes are red and we now know that there are differences so you may be genetically predisposed in one direction but based upon those life experiences those genes are read differently? So now there's a risk. I can promise you that people who are listening or viewing this podcast today are going to want to go out and get their act score. How does somebody go about that process process? I honestly in today's world the All you need to do is get to your computer and Google adverse childhood experiences. There's actually really an online electronic form of the ACE's questionnaire that you can fill out and get your score then what you do with it then I would it again in really encourage you to go and talk to your medical provider or mental health provider or addiction. Counselor sit down with them and talk walk about those early life experiences and begin to focus on. What are the ways that you're going to build? Your resiliency should apparent get get online and answer those questions on behalf of one of their children. I think that the answer to that is yes. In fact and the former president of the American Academy of Pediatrics Doctor Block he has said that adverse childhood experiences represent the the single greatest unaddressed public health crisis facing our nation today so that parent going and looking at the at and then going to there. The pediatrician and talking about that can have a significant impact down in downstream into adulthood and what responsibility responsibility than does the pediatrician or the general practitioner have if a parent or patient brings their ace. Course Dr Dalil look at my score here. Eight of the twelve on the on the list and I hand that to you. What are you GonNa do with at my hope would be that attrition would recognize that as screening for serious potential risk to chronic illness? And Take it very seriously as a medical intervention Pediatricians have the ability to make referrals to mental health professionals to connect that child and the parents to evidence based treatment to help with those early childhood traumas and when we see an ace score or for example at Hazel on Betty Ford. What are we? How do we use that to better guide a one on one treatment with the patient in into to fashions one is? It gives us some indication as to the risk of relapse because more in higher. Act Score the more the risk of relapse that we saw from that recent study so we want to know that we want to have an idea of WHO's at greater risk of relapse that we need to create collapsed prevention. Plan that addresses again. Those specific needs and those specific experiences. we've also really the incorporated within our system of care. A trauma informed approach that helps to keep people engaged and informed throughout their course of if treatment Dr Steven. DC thank you for bringing your expertise and your passion to our viewers our listeners today medical director at he's he's willing Betty Ford Psychiatrist Medical Director of our Professional Education Solutions Division and Hazel. Nobody for Dr Steven. Thank you very much William. It was a pleasure. I'm I'm your host William Warriors and on behalf of Lisa stangl and all of us at Hazel and Betty Ford. We thank you for joining us for another podcast. Let's talk make sure you join us again

trauma Ace Betty Ford Hazel medical director William Warriors Dr Stephen Delancey Betty Ford Foundation Betty Ford Psychiatrist Medica William Pleasure Dr Steven Recovery Management Mid Nineteen Ninety nucleus accumbens US cocaine Hazelton Depression partner Centers of Disease Control
Why Deadhead Logs Are So Rare and Valuable (w/ Kevin OConnor) and Why Traveling Makes You Tired

Curiosity Daily

09:49 min | 1 year ago

Why Deadhead Logs Are So Rare and Valuable (w/ Kevin OConnor) and Why Traveling Makes You Tired

"Hi you're about to get smarter in just a few minutes with curiosity. Daily from curiosity DOT COM. I'm cody golf and I'm actually Hamer today. You'll learn about the type of log log that so rare and valuable people actually risk their lives looking for them from author in TV host. Kevin O'Connor then we'll answer a listener question about why you feel tired appeared after you take a long trip but satisfy some curiosity when you think about buried treasure. You probably don't think about trees ends lumber and yet dead logs are sought after because they could make you rich if you're willing to risk your life for them today to share the story is Kevin O'Connor who set of the Emmy me winning home improvement series this old house. He just wrapped the first season of his new podcast clear story which sheds light on the surprising stories behind our homes and today Kevin joins us with a brief history of dead head logs. Starting with what happened when European colonists I arrived in America hundreds of years ago when when the colonists I got here they were looking for resources and there were abundant resources. It was Virgin growth forest here in this continent Literally a billion acres of this continent of this country covered in trees and for better for worse we harvested them pretty aggressively throughout the seventeen and eighteen hundreds And in the process we took some magnificent supplies eastern white pines signs that were two hundred feet tall straight as an arrow that had been growing for one hundred years and were forty feet around we harvested them in mass those northern northern forests of Minnesota that we ship down the Great Lakes. We clear cut him. We cleaned MINNESOTA. We clear. Cut Him in Maine New Hampshire and in that process because of the era we would cut the trees down in the winter when the ground was frozen and then we get an ox to pull them across a C and snowy paths. Because how else would you move them through the mud and dirt did it. When the ground was slippery yes stack them up on the banks of rivers which were frozen but when the spring came and the snow melted and the rivers rose? You could float the logs from MINNESOTA DOWN TO CHICAGO OR FROM MAINE DOWN TO BOSTON and float him right up to the mills which were along rivers. You'd bring him in chop them up. And it was the heyday of timbering and logging in this this country. And while millions of these things made it from the forest to the mills thousands or hundreds of thousands got stuck along the way and they went to the bottom of Rivers rivers and is a weird thing. That happens when a piece of wood. Big Tree full-size goes to the bottom of a river. It is preserved like like I don't know what in from out of the died a frog and formaldehyde for science there preserved perfectly and they sit there for hundreds of years and now with the virgin forests. All gone all all this Beautiful slow growth timber all gone. There's only one place to get. It gets at the bottom of rivers and their guys who put on snorkel gear scuba gear and they will dive down into black murky rivers. They will literally list risk their lives and we talked to guys who get pinned under logs that way hundreds of pounds or rushed to the hospital because they got bit by poisonous trying to get this stuff but when they get it it's treasure they bring it up and it's beautiful and it could be five hundred or a thousand or two thousand years old and when you slice into it you're the first person to ever use it and see it and it's remarkable so it's rare it's coveted did and if you can find it you can sell it for a whole bunch of Dow because people really really want. Okay so what makes this stuff. So valuable depends on who you ask. I think if you talked to norm Abram who was our master carpenter on a shell legendary carpenter He will tell you it was the beautiful all in unique color of it and also the stability you know if the tree grew for five hundred years in the forest it grew very slowly slowly and we know that means that the rings are closer together which means the rain is tighter and that gives the woods stability and it's very difficult today because things go very fast and we force it and we farm it so he will tell you. It's that unique color the beauty as well as stability. I would argue with them a little a bit. Those things certainly are incredibly important but I think today the most important thing is it has story if you can sit there in your house talking to a guest or friend or even if you had to sell the idea to your spouse and you can point to this thing and say that lumber. I was here when Christopher Columbus showed up it went to the bottom of a river at the heyday of the logging industry. In this country it was was pulled up by a crazy guy a scuba tank and then we sliced through the Cyprus and Carter all the way up here to put it in the floor of this house you got yourself a story and you got yourself just a an invaluable thing. That's what our houses are there. Things that make us feel comfortable. They are the things that we like to show off. There are things that we like to share in that it it just it checks all the boxes right. You're making me really want one. Don't you want one. I could put you into a thousand year old piece of Cypress for eighty bucks a board foot. I'll get back to you on that. That would again. That was Kevin O'Connor his new podcast is called clear story and all ten episodes of the first season are available for you to listen to right now. Find Clear history wherever you listen to podcasts or look for Lincoln. Today's show notes. We got a listener question from Samuel in London. Who Asks? WHAT DO I get super tired after extremely only long car trips or train writes most of the time? I'm just sitting down doing nothing or sleeping but I still always become super tired. Can you please explain. Why Great Question Samuel L. as someone who falls asleep almost immediately on any long trip I definitely know where you're coming from? Samuel there are a lot of elements at play when you travel the can add up to that that sleepy feeling the biggest though is boredom. I mean whether you're in a plane train or automobile. There's not a whole lot to keep you occupied on a long trip. A study study in two thousand seventeen found that the same part of the brain. That's responsible for motivation can also produce sleep so when there's nothing particularly motivating around. We tend to get sleepy. Maybe that part of the brain is called the nucleus accumbens and it's packed with receptors for tiredness triggering molecule called a denizen both caffeine and motivating stimuli stimuli can interfere with these receptors. And keep you from getting sleepy but without either of those. It's a one-way ticket to snooze. Ville studies have also found that the gentle vibrations nations of a vehicle or also. Really good lulling us to sleep. Although scientists aren't really sure why a twenty eighteen study from Australia had people drive in a virtual oh simulator that was set up on a vibration platform. It only took fifteen minutes on a low vibration for the participants to show signs of drowsiness and by thirty minutes in staying alert took significant effort when it comes to staying awake on route the relaxing Of the engine isn't doing you any favors. And of course they're all the little things things on traveled as you probably wake up earlier than normal eat less than nourishing food generally send your normal routines out of whack. You also may be dehydrated whether from recirculated air in a plane or just forgetting to drink water in general and studies suggest that can make you sluggish. So what should you do about it. Honestly take a nap up. But if you'd rather stay alert here are a few things to try. Talk to your travel buddies to keep your mind. Active drink caffeine too full your identity and receptors. Just make sure sure to follow it with lots and lots of water and try your best to eat healthy meals so you don't have a food coma or sugar crash to make things even worse. Thanks for your question Samuel and good luck if you have a question send it into podcast. CURIOSITY DOT COM before we recap. We learned today. Here's a sneak peek. At what you'll hear next week on curiosity curiousity daily next week. Learn about why you're next. Relationship will probably be like your last one. How researchers could deliver lifesaving drugs more effectively by tweaking? Your body's he's red blood cells surprising things that happened to a body during pregnancy. Where scientist found oldest material on earth? And more okay. So now let's recap what we learned. Today deadlocks are well preserved underwater for a really long time and they have this beautiful color and they're really sturdy but probably their true value comes from the story behind awesome. Yeah really want one. Yeah I mean I mean I want furniture made from what I didn't just want to log. I mean I'd take a log fine. This is my log that could it'd be cool to. Hey you know. Move to twin peaks walk around holding it. This is my deadlock you can tell. It's a deadlocked because it's wearing tie-dye And the owls are not what they seem. MM-HMM I learned you get tired travel because of boredom vibrations when you travel and getting dehydrated. A little caffeine could help my personal recommendation. Though is contender switch. I'm sorry like I don't get bored at all. You don't get You don't get carsick from that not remotely. Well you're a lucky guy. I know today's listener. Question was written by Ashley Hammer. WHO's the managing editor for curiosity daily? Today's episode was produced and edited by cody. Have a great weekend and join us again. Monday to learn or something new in just a few minutes and until then stay curious on the Westwood. One podcast network.

Kevin O'Connor Samuel L. caffeine Minnesota Rivers rivers scientist Emmy Great Lakes America Hamer norm Abram Maine New Hampshire nucleus accumbens MAINE BOSTON cody CHICAGO Ashley Hammer Christopher Columbus managing editor
The Chemistry

Obsession

21:59 min | 2 years ago

The Chemistry

"Uh-huh. Have you thought I was going to hurt her? But I would never do something like that. She was really scaring me when he blocked the door and I wanted to scream for help. But I was so afraid of upsetting him. I didn't want to anger him anymore. I was totally willing to forgive her. Forgive it for everything for being out with that guy. Didn't matter. I love ABBIE. I I was never gonna leave her. Why can't will just get over Abby and move on with his life? Why can't he seem to control himself? I'm Alison Becker. And this is obsession a podcast co produced by focus features and LA times studios and funded by focus features in support of the film. Greta in our first two up associates. We explored unrequited love that turns obsessive, and what could lead us to form these pathological relationships with others even strangers what's happening in our brains to trigger these obsessive feelings, especially the intense. Feelings of love are the chemicals in our brains making the calls for us. Are these thoughts uncontrollable many believe they are? And that these obsessions actually complicate their ability to love thirty two year old New Yorker Daniel has continuously agonized over unrequited loves in an attempt to understand what he's feeling he sought out the help of online communities like the one run by Dr limits who we heard from an epoch. One Daniel has never had a real long-term relationship. They've all been fantasies constructed in his head. Here's daniel. It's like a jackhammer. I think about him constantly. It doesn't take a lot to kind of set off this emotional response to any sort of proximity to this guy everything lead back to him. I have I have memorized every conversation we ever have. Because all I could think about what this guy with a pint grad school early in the year, and I could not focus on the things that I needed to do. Because all I could think of was this die. It's utterly debilitating. I had ever breakdown. I mean, I could not function. So what's going on with Daniel? Why is he so fixated to help us make sense of at all we turn to some medical and scientific experts like Dr Alexandra cata Haughey's the clinical director of the center for healthy sex here in Los Angeles and author of several books on sex and love addiction. The attraction is just an immediate jolt to the system. If I see you across the room, and I start to have a fantasy rightey about you or activated, by way of chemistry. I may start to make a whole story about you. And who you are to me this notion of Limerick implies a sort of a romantic love and with that naturally comes obsession with someone who's obsessed the minute, they meet someone there in love. They're picking out the wedding China in their head. They're imagining what it would be like to have that person's last name or for that person to be their wife or girlfriend, and it doesn't. No matter what that person does that is off or even agreed just they will keep pushing the fantasy. So they're not really in love with the person. They're in love with the idea of it. That obsession arises as a result of these neurochemical changes, and there's a massive dopamine blast. It's excited. Tori, emotionally physically sexually. And so that feels like the one it's like a cosmic experience. But that cosmic experience is what people who are obsessed and who attach pathologically are constantly seeking like Daniel PJ. Also has a habit of falling madly in love with unavailable men. He knows it's not healthy. But he can't stop himself. His first big love hit him in college. The guy was straight. But PJ couldn't admit there was no teacher for them. Like Daniel the feeling of being in love was more exciting than the reality of being in a mutual loving relationship. PJ is now thirty five and. Living in southern California knows a college roommate of mine eighteen we moved in together. And we were like always hang out in his room. We would like just get really high and enjoy each other like laugh like the same used by Margaret's everything to us and like brother relationship with growing and we lived together like two years. So it was like we got really really close. He is from what I know as completely straight. And then I call myself a homo flexible, but you know, it's just the fluid situation. I'm here for the love bay was curious on his end of, you know, taking it to the friendship we have to thankful level as I'm thinking this future. Like, all this is gonna be great. He's not on that level because he's thinking, okay, I'm trying to get to a point where now I'm experimenting with guys. This is the whole thing for me in my head. For years PJ fantasized about his former roommate despite knowing in his heart and his mind that they never have an actual romance the pattern repeated itself over and over again for years until he met another unattainable, man. This time at work, but he was married and had a kid. I knew from the beginning like nothing can happen. But I was working at a paint shop, and he was a new guy came in there. Just big buff Brazilian beautiful, man. And we immediately just like clicked, and it was like just boys going out for drinks after work just kicking boys. Do but I as time went on. I was just like, man. I keep looking at you. So beautiful associates them for that time. I was like the porn. I watched. I was watching nothing but Brazilian porn after that everything was charged with sexual tension with high like, my my mind was alert because he was smart. So I was always had to be on my Ps and qs and everything like the way I looked sharp because he was always dressed sharp. I was charged with everything when I was so. That was of szeswith him. It was sole real at the time. So real at the time, then I just I kept going. We just kept hanging out. But it was never expressed. And I had to move away. So he was not in that situation in like to a point where it's like, I need to cut you out of my life. You are married, and you have a child and get away from me PJ knows. He's got a problem. He understands what he needs to do to fix it. But he just can't break the cycle, chemically speaking. Why is that? Dr Helen Fisher can break this down for us. She's a biological anthropologist and senior research fellow at the Kinsey institute. She's also the chief science advisor to match dot com and the author of six books on love in two thousand five match dot com. Came to me and asked me, why do you fall in love with one person rather than another? And I created a questionnaire there's been taken by for two million people in forty countries that studies the biology personality to try to understand why you fall in love with prison relevant. Another. I began to think to myself people will say we have chemistry or we don't have chemistry. What does that mean? Our we naturally pooled biologically to some people rather than others. I've been studying the brain for many years, and I came to realize that we've all four very broad styles of thinking and behaving linked with the dopamine serotonin to toss thrown estrogen systems in the brain. So I created a questionnaire to see to what degree you express the traits. Link with each one of those chemical systems, and then I watched among fourteen million people who naturally drawn to whom most of the systems in our brain are not linked to personality traits. They're busy keeping our heart. Speeding making our eyes blink important things. Like that. So let's break this down even further. How do these four brain chemical systems influence who we are what we do how we live and love let's start with dopamine. What's that doing to us? The dopamine system gives you energy optimism, motivation and focus, but the traits linked with the dopamine system, and I call these people explorers, they tend to be risk-taking novelty seeking curious creative spontaneous energetic, mentally flexible. Okay. What about serotonin people were very ex- expensive of the serotonin system. I call these people builders these people are traditional and conventional they follow the rules. They respect to thirty. They like paying and Casuals. They're very religious and concrete thinkers, and they are drawn to people like themselves. This is truly fascinating. What about testosterone people were very expressive of destroying system. I call directors and their analytical logical direct decisive tough-minded tend to be skeptical. They need rank you'll fight for rank. And they're good at what we call rule based systems everything from engineering to computers to math to architecture to mechanics and last, but not least the fourth brain system, the estrogen system what's going on there. I call these people negotiators they tend to be imaginative in Tudor. They see the big picture. They are they see a complexity the very good with people. They tend to be socially skilled or good at reading posture gesture tone of voice, they're trusting and they're empathetic. So we are. All combination of all four of these broad styles of thinking and behaving, but we expressed some more than others and those naturally drawn towards some partners rather than others. All right. This is starting to make sense. But now I've got another question does one of these four brain chemical systems, make you more susceptible to becoming love addicted. Like, could you see a difference? If you do a brain scan dopamine is made in a tiny little factory near the base of the brain. And then it sends dopamine too, many brain regions any gives you that craving that obsession that focus that seeking that wanting that as with all motivation. I think an awful lot of people who are expensive of the dopamine system that risk-takers they can be romanced junkies. I think there are also attachment junkies. People just can't leave a bad relationship because they feel it's a duty to stay and. And they just can't break their promise. I think there were people who are sort of you know, when they have a bad love affair. They will turn violent than start stocking or even commit suicide or homicide. Motivation. Very good. But some can be very pathological. I mean, if you're madly in love with somebody who told you very clearly that they're not interested or they're not ready. You may be suffering from a love addiction. If you just keep pounding to win the back. My colleagues of put fifteen people who are rejected in love into a brain scanner, and we found activity in a lot of brain regions. But one brain region called the nucleus accumbens. It's a brain region that becomes active when you have any addiction, but different people are going to express their Dixon's in different ways. Okay. So dopamine is like the loud obnoxious guy at the party in your head. This is helpful information for sure, but how this becomes an addiction is still a mystery UCLA psychiatrist. Dr Timothy Fong is an addiction specialist. So we turn to him for some clues one of the most common questions we get in addiction psychiatry. What is half? Happening inside the brain. When someone is going through the process of an addiction or emotional pain or conflict from a behavior that looks like an addiction to be honest. What we really don't know. But we are clearly understanding that one is an addiction that the brain is number one built very differently and number two responds very differently to natural rewards, the real fundamental question is why that some people can handle these rewarding behaviors and activities very well and go on with their life and grow and develop while other skits stuck in a apparent cycle of of self harm harmful consequences themselves, poor judgment, impulsive behavior and keep doing things that seemingly from afar, make no sense. But actually in their mind make sense by the patient who described this issue where. He's craving wanting to be married, and he's gone to the online dating. He's tried kind of classic methods. And it really struggles what is left with is the online dating experience via tender and things like that. But what he's finding that. These are very quote transactional. They're not about intimacy or connection there about sex. So I'm thinking about what's happening inside his his brain as he's reaching out to these women. He's craving and wanting the things we all want connection love relationships consistency safety, but what he's getting is pure unadulterated raw primitive high. And there's this unspoken thing that it's going to end up in sex that night. So I asked him said well, your last twenty Tinder dates how many ended up in sexual activities. He said twenty twenty out of twenty all within an this fascinating within two to three hours of meeting. The. Women in person. So I said to him. Do you see yourself like an Don Juan or like a you'll love addict or you sex attic? What are you? And he says, I don't know what he says is that I know that at the end of the day my life is miserable. I'm alone. I can't sleep. Very well. I'm stressed all the time. I don't know what a healthy relationship looks like. So I think about what must be happening in his brain. How all the convoluted feelings of the minute he logged on wanting to search force a connection on Tinder, and then the emotional juices, if you will starting to flow from adrenaline and dopamine excitement, high sexual Beato combined with anxiety, uncertainty doubt trauma, and then he goes and meets a woman, and they meet in, you know, public space and within fifteen thirty minutes. They're both making a decision what they wanna do over the next few hours. These are the stories that we're starting to see more. More and more that same fundamental themes. I think that men and women would quote love addiction are struggling with. I think are true any other form of dick disorder loneliness. Avoidance loss of connection loss of the sense of usefulness and really having difficulty figuring out how to find the strengthen curbs and live a more moderate temperate connected lifestyle. So if I'm understanding all this simply put we need physical contact. We need a motion contact we need to be together. It's what makes us humans, and it's the ones that don't have this that are intensely lonely that find themselves in trouble. Let's take a quick break in focus features film. Greta actress khloe grace merits plays Francis. A young woman grieving the death of her mother a loss that leaves her open invulnerable to a relationship with an elderly widow that is unhealthy if not pathological. I think loneliness is something that the entire reason why France never would have let a woman like this in like, she wasn't happy with the way that our debt conducted himself and her mother's last days, and she pulled away from her father moved to a new city out of college with her friend who, you know, New York is an exciting city. But if you're not ready, and you don't having ca- steady footing. It's easy to get kind of slipped up, and you do trying grasp onto things that feel organic in real and cozy. And I think the first thing that Greta feels to hers incredibly cozy she welcomes her in with a hot Cup of coffee and they chatty. It's it was just, you know. I think it really perfect storm again to welcome in someone that is doing with this and that loss and loneliness kind of goes hand in hand in creates a cavity in someone that they need filling. Lonely. Hearts tales are pretty common we've all felt alone. But unlike Francis, and Greta we don't all let that feeling controllers Abby loved being in a relationship. Remember she pursued will in the beginning. But when things soured she wanted out, she thought she made it clear, but that message failed to land on will. Here's abbie. The only way could get to was to tell him exactly what he wanted to hear told him. I would think about it and would call later to meet up and talk. I was confused because he was so happy. He hugged me an mainly skin crawl got her back. I've got Abby back things are gonna go back to normal just freaked out when he hit my forehead. I didn't know what to do. But I didn't call the cops. I just called my mom. Henny sat there staring at the door. Just waiting for her to come home hoping that we'll wouldn't show up if I could just be in the room with her if I could just talk to her everything would be fine. Everything seemed like it went back to normal. I thought we were back together again. But then she just ghosted me. And then I realized that she was lying to me. My mom kept asking me trying to get me to talk. And I just said I wanna go home. It wanna go home. I was checking my phone constantly. She was all I ever thought about she's all ever wanted. Everything took a back seat to Abby. Is Will's behavior considered pathological we use that word loosely. But what does it really mean? Dr hawkish explains. Well, I think the easiest way to think about pathology minute. It is a medical word, and it's typically associated with diagnosis of disease of some sort. But when I think of pathology in psychological terms, I think of problematic if something has pathological, it is problematic, and that means again, it's creating messes in your life or in somebody else's life. Okay. We can assume that wills behavior is pathological. He's lost his job. He's not eating or sleeping regularly. And he's cutting off communication with friends and family. He's a mess. So psychologically, what does that mean? There's a distortion also psychologically and people that we consider pathological. So they either lack empathy and that. Makes them, you know, antisocial or they are completely self obsessed in some way, or they're dependent on other people and they can't function. But there is a problem there. That's pervasive. It's not a problem. Like, you have a problem. And then you take some action, and you fix change that problem people admit feeling like, it's just the way they are. They can't do anything about it for someone suffering and in pain like will professional guidance or therapy would not only help him heal. It also helped him live a healthy reality and leave behind the unhealthy fantasies as you're about to hear will wasn't open to help. Then and Abby she's frightened. I stayed with my mom for a couple of weeks by will knew her house was so I didn't feel safe. My art out. I would go to sleep and have nightmares about losing her. And then I wake up and be in a living nightmare because I've lost her. I couldn't even I couldn't even put it out of my thoughts while I was sleeping. That's how bad it was. He did this to me. I couldn't go anywhere. Living in fear. I thought that I could get rid of my pain with a bigger pain. Why would he send these me? He sent me pictures of it was horrifying made excuses to cover up. What I was doing pretend that it was a knife that slipped or something like that. And I thought that I was at the end of this. But it didn't stop he needed. How real help not me? If you or someone you know is struggling will there's help you can get information on mental health treatment services in your area by going to S A M H S A dot gov or calling one eight hundred six six to help to speak to someone free confidential twenty four seven three hundred sixty five days a year. You're not alone. On the next episode of obsession. I mean, if you love someone you don't terrify them, you don't terrorize them. So I would take issue with notion that busy of cessive of if obsessive behavior than for sure. But I don't think has anything to do with it. This podcast was created on behalf of focus features by LA times studios. And does not reflect the views of the Los Angeles Times, nor does it involve the editorial reporting staffs of the Los Angeles Times.

dopamine Daniel PJ Abby Greta Los Angeles Times Alison Becker LA times California Tudor Los Angeles Dr Alexandra cata Haughey Tori Kinsey institute Dr Helen Fisher nucleus accumbens Margaret advisor Dr Timothy Fong senior research fellow
Dr. Jud

Dr. Drew Podcast

1:01:53 hr | 1 year ago

Dr. Jud

"Thanks for listening to the Dr Drew podcast on podcast. One Napa know that NAPA AUTO PARTS STORES OF NAPA Auto Care Centers get a twenty five dollars prepaid card when you get any any neff automotive battery. It's the best deal for some of the fest batteries from some of the best car people around but we might be a little partial n you pick up any nap automotive battery and Save Twenty Five Bucks. Do It yourself or have done for you. That's NAPA know how I don't know how that participating auto parts stores and NAPA auto care centers while supplies last offer ends eight thirty one nineteen hi it's Jamie Progressive's employee of the month two months in a row leave a message hi Jamie. It's me Jaime. I just had a new new idea for our song. 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That's NAPA KNOW PAL general states pricing sales president not include applicable state local taxes or recycling piece of rent seven thirty one nineteen and no an ad from dad all right save money on car insurance when you bundle home and auto with Progressive Guy Take these Jeff. What is this this wow? Where did you get this? I'm talking to you with the hair yeah. Where did you get this good stuff solid? That's not veneer that solid stuff progressive can't save you from becoming your parents but we can't save you money when you bundle home and Auto Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurance discounts not available in all states or situations everybody welcome Dr Podcast as usual. Please keep the win in the sales of pirate ship and support those sports here we try to care for these guys that we appreciate it and chick all the other posits dot com. I appreciate guys going owned by there and <hes> people after dark. Check that one out. It's my privileged. Welcome Dr Jeff Brewer today. <hes> the book is called the craving mind from cigarettes to smartphones to lob why we get hooked and how we can break bad habits an APP unwinding winding anxiety the <hes> again Chris. The book is a very Obama's unusual places in the eating APP is called eat right now he right now also at APP store and Google play and a new study found it to be the unwinding anxiety. I guess to be one of the two most effective APPs in this category. Yeah that's awesome. What's what's on that APP? It's basically way to help. People understand their minds in how they get caught up in habitual patterns of anxiety and is sort of a C._B._T.. In your hand kind of thing like a Nazi B._T.. It's it's more mindfulness training in mindfulness yeah excellent and how's how's it differ from the some of these other abssador sort of meditative and that sort of thing it's based on science. That's quite starts. We we spent twenty years doing the research figure out what it is about. How reminds work in the other piece that we found there have been about fifty years where folks have been really focusing on willpower as a way to change behaviors from everything in the truth is that willpower more myth and muscle and civil really diving in through the neural mechanism peace and how does brain actually work and how can we target that specifically in mindfulness seems to be one of the effective against can help people understand what they're going to get from the APP? What's makes a different different from the meditative APP? If people into gravitating for right so we <hes> we give people step-by-step training ten minutes a day that really helps them understand their own minds <hes> from a from direct experiential perspective and then take practices says that they build right into their everyday live so it's not like hey if you're anxious it down and meditate it's about hey if you're anxious. Let's really dig into that understand where it is and then <hes> then be able to work with it in that moment is it is it's sort of like a is if it's is it a practice a habit of the way it was at your voice coming back to them. It's well we use videos and in the moment exercises to really train them that in terms of how their minds working example of I'm anxious right now. What will I sort of exercise? Be Yeah well in day. One we start with just helping you understand your mind. I think of this is like step one is can you see you know what triggers anxiety. What are the habitual patterns earns you go to a lot of people go to worry so they're trying to you know their mind is trying to getting control and then look at what's the what's the result of that worry and that behavior result relationships really important because that's what drives habitual behavior? It's not actually the behavior itself the reinforce yeah yeah and so if we want to change behavior we don't go at the behavior itself. We look at three enforcers and awareness can actually help us e how unrein forcing these old behaviors actually are like worry doesn't actually fix much right no right in fact <hes> would would occurs to me. Is that phobias sort of going to that same mode to right and it's it's a funny I had a very conscious experience with fear of flying myself where I flew once on somebody's but he's playing we were it was so beautiful like had no anxiety and it was then I had a conscious experience of Oh. I could do this without anxiety and it was gone. I it was it was like but I had experience it. They'll burst you totally have to express it and that's that's that's the other piece where the mindfulness comes in and it helps us bring in that direct experience where we can see like with anxiety in particular. We're so identified with those thoughts. We can't imagine that we are anything different. You know for example early pilot test of our program who wrote wrote me an email saying I'm so identified with my anxiety feel like it is edge deeply etched in my bones and what they can start to realize these are thoughts. These are physical sensations associated with this taking these things personally and that we don't have to take them. I was that person saying that the it's part of their personality and they didn't they felt they were going to change too much or something. I know they felt like they didn't see away out that it was so much embedded in who they were and the Lo and behold we can find a way out we've had people be able to overcome full blown panic attacks seeing that these urge physical those go by other question was panic fit into this as well exactly it absolutely does and we know panic attacks can be problematic but panic nick disorder is when we start worrying about having our next panic Italia been there panic when I was in college and was mistreated completely and then I ended up having very high generalized anxiety because I was in fear of the next panicked residency training good time absolutely so fun and then the eating eating the eat right now yeah same principles where we learn to eat because we're or stress not because we're hungry <hes> these old you know these ancient brain mechanisms think of it as caveman brain which was there to help us survive help us remember where food is now in modern day when everybody has a refrigerator and food delivery <hes>. We've learn to start to eat when we're stress learn to eat when we're bored. We've learned to eat when we're lonely and so that habit loop get set up that just as really hard to break so we can help people pay attention and see well what will actually get from overeating. What do I get from eating when I'm stressed? What when I get from eating junk food is compared to healthy food that we can start to break that cause and effect relationship when our brain starts to see how unrewarding that is and then we also bring in what I think of as the bigger better offer of of awareness of curiosity of mindfulness itself to explain that last part so there's a part of our brain called the orbital frontal cortex that actually stores and in determines this hierarchy of reward value so for example you know if I- Broccoli versus milk chocolate my brain's rain's GonNa say okay milk chocolate and then it for me dark chocolate definitely high up on the hierarchy so if given a choice milk chocolate dark chocolate it's going to eat dark chocolate and we can do the same thing? We're helping it see okay. What if I overeat versus just eat the right amount? What is that like can hierarchy starts to develop when we pay attention and C. O.? Overeating doesn't feel as good as actually stopping when I'm full. If you become conscious of what you're doing totally we have to become consciousness Yuki. It's the orbital frontal the conscious conscious generating piece or is it the valence generating. It's more the reward piece so it saying okay that's worth X.. Number of points versus wise worth who south sort of like a deeper struck they migdal or something doing that yeah. It's I mean they're all they're all related but this one is seemed to be most consistently <hes> associated with reward value itself just a total sidebar. I got preoccupy lately with the insular cortex yeah because it really to me deep learning when coming into focus both literature and I guess in my own mind about it is that that's the zone that gives you the feeling of feeling yeah what it's almost the quality. It's like what it's like or are in end the insular cortex right in particular people have been zooming in on what's described as intercept of awareness as an example feel like feel and they're they're connecting it to the spotless lamb at this time and stuff but I feel like this a big story to be told there. No there is a big start. It'd be told on a number of France at looking at this related to mindfulness practice. There've been number of studies showing that the insular CORTEX is more activated when people are especially the Post Yuriy okay so we had tell. It's got to polls to it. They're different in the middle is different than the poll yeah but but it is in a way it's kind of weirdly constructed like the Monkey lous on our on our motor and century courtesies right. That's the way it's described kind of enshrined him. Yeah so the did post your insulin seems to be associated with more just raw in terms of awareness holistic kind of my gut whatever yeah totally and as you march toward the front or toward the anterior insulin this is where we start relating to those sensations nations so we bring in I'm feeling yeah exactly and how does this relate to previous feelings is this good is this bad and all that and it's structurally kind of near the orbital frontal system isn't it. It's it's in the same area because I was felt like or frontal broaden the outside world into some of those interests of experiences it is certainly across rate with regard all of this you know the literal translation of that is island so it's kind of this island between these different loaves of the brain so interesting yeah totally that that's a future right isn't isn't it really is one to understand this okay so but but your focus is is I it's mindfulness but it's also on breaking reinforces right. Isn't it yeah those go. Oh hand in hand so if you think of how reinforcement learning works this caveman brain of ours needs basically just three basic elements. Let's drill in a metal but you mean the reward system yeah yeah. The rewards isn't from a behavioral standpoint. We need a trigger a behavior in a reward so seafood you eat the food. That's the behavior then you get this dopamine signal to your brain that says remember what you ate more. You found it so it's actually set up. Reinforcement learning is set up to help us remember where food is same is true for Avoiding Danger University the danger you run one way and then the reward is you don't get eaten. Are you explicitly bringing memory in here. Is that what you mean by remember well. It's as you mean just sort of know does a faint sense. That's rewarding. I guess that's memory. There is the the more explicit it is the more quickly we learn things so the more we lineup specific behavior with a certain result or reward the more likely our brain is to say okay do that again or don't do that again so yeah very explicit in terms of causing effect okay and that's actually what drives behavior savior you're. There's this idea that if I'd WANNA change behavior I focus on the behavior I think that's where a lot of cognitive therapies and things like that focused but if you look at reinforcement learning reward based based on reward behavior itself so we focus on the reward award and this is where mindfulness comes in is you can start to help us e very very clearly. What did I just do in what's the actual result in when we bring awareness in we can are orbital? Frontal cortex gets accurate in updated information that says okay. This is rewarding or this. Isn't I'll give you an example <hes> in our smoking firms. We did a study where we've got five times. quit rates of gold standard treatment. We're like okay what's going on here and we found that if if we bring people in have them pay attention as they smoke they realized is that smoking actually doesn't taste very good right and so that reward valued drops. We had a guy that focus on taste only or whatever oh everything tastes smell <hes> feeling in their lungs you know a lot of described that there's this burning feeling which they it kind of convert into a reinforce or some some people well. They're not paying attention and so the reinforcing quality is that they're dopamine is there dopamine receptors or basically screaming for a nicotine to say hey tickle tickle tickle me and so you know that piece supersedes the actual direct experience and so they get that government hitting their brain says don't worry about this other stuff through that do that to give a cocaine. Yes it is very much like is it. The shell of the nucleus accumbens where this is all going on or is at some other region there depends on if you're talking mouser man in mice we talk about the shell in the core of accumbens those the difference tell me more well. It's in humans. The anatomies more related to things like the nucleus accumbens the Pew. Tamen the <hes> and others like anterior and and post ear so it's a different it's not a shell so much as a enter to post your configuration yeah which is interesting sort of I guess that's overseeing more and more of as we get to know the brain right enter poster it does that correlate with some sort of evolutionary progress. You know that's above my pay grade right yeah. The bottom line is probably some weight yeah and so is there a particular region. There were just for listening newcomb's I think of as the final pathway and reward sites I call it the do it again. Part of the Brain Yeah Vertebrae is I'm not because people always go. Oh you get this pleasurable response. I'm not sure you feel anything with the Duke has come into trigger except do that again. I'm so glad you say that because every there's this myth the dope dope. I don't think I don't think it's there's a unless there's an opioid component. It doesn't really feel that good so there are opioid receptors in the nucleus as accumbens but when somebody takes cocaine for example my patients described as all the time they're not talking about pleasure. They're talking about their their feeling restless. They're feeling on edge. They're feeling driven in often. They're feeling paranoid. Yeah well. Where's the pleasure in and the worst and they know intellectually? They're going to get psychotic and yet they don't stop until they are completely psychotic yeah they can't. They can't yet because the do it again. It's the best example I know of this reward thing. We're talking about yeah so I think ain't crack particularly yeah they just just start and goes until the end well crack is interesting because you're our lungs or this amazing delivery vehicle for drugs such a huge surface area yeah so you can get this huge spike and it goes well. Forget the blood not just the blood levels but there's no pass through it goes directly from the lungs to your brain. It has one second hail brain. That's it you know it's not going anywhere else and and thus it has these extra physiological effects can you with these mindful is mindfulness the right word for this what you do yes okay are these because it feels like I get where you would call it mindful because it is bringing to mind literally nothing but it has a different connotation because mindfulness has a whole history yeah so we can actually simplify it by saying well. What are what are we actually talking about? We can talk about awareness bringing awareness in a way that we're not biased so we're not saying oh I'm aware of that in that sucks are that's great. We're just bringing awareness and really asking well how rewarding these Marley and can crack be affected with this awareness stuff are for studies were done without going cocaine. Dependence found that might is as good as gold standard treatment of crack most of the folks in that study were addicted to crack cocaine and and then how do you keep them over once they get there so that's another interesting piece so two pieces of this orbital frontal cortex one it stores reward value so if we can help it see something isn't very rewarding like smoking overeating or being caught up in in a worry loop that roared value drops in opens up the door for some for that bigger better offer we can bring in that bigger butter offer for through curious awareness itself so if people really check in what feels better craving or curiosity curiosity feels better so we can actually use curiosity as a way to replace that craving. That's says do this again. Do this gin with Oh. What is that craving actually feel? I can't conflict the valence right in that moment and help people not only be with cravings and ride them out but also realize they actually have something inherent in them right. You know that's always available. That actually really feels pretty. Good does the interpersonal figure into that because that's seems like again. The orbital frontal can access some of those sorts of interpersonal regulators. At least what do you mean by interpersonal another just having having been available. Oh Yeah I think connection is actually critical. That's kind of the word that I always thought the orbital frontal really helped us with connection or gave us connection. I don't know if we know exactly certainly at least I don't know all of the nuances of that interpersonal interpersonal many levels yeah. I think a lot of it has been reworked. There was no mirror neuron hypothesis that hasn't been replicated very well and so I think people are really revisiting that to see what's going on but one thing we do know if you think of craving this contracted closed down state. When we're curious there were more open where we're expanded and when we're connected with others we also feel that expanded reality of experience in the expansion versus contraction expansion feels better the came from we would use craving living in a motivator to make the connection <hes> yes because I would always 'cause I the patients Rita that worse with with the ones without cravings because they thought they were fine and they weren't motivated to make the connection? The craving was like I am going to use if I don't do something here's what you do they do it there. They can regulate the cravings then that's a really nice way to channel that that energy from the yeah that's why when the whole addiction field started measuring cravings. I you guys not invents what you're going to do with it. Yeah Yeah and I think people think oh if we can just delete the craving is I know you're actually people yeah. Oh my God that's staying sober. Part is is always the heart well not always but his key problem yeah so if people become less enchanted. Let's say with these old behaviors. They're less likely to relapse to them. This is where memory comes back in. I don't know if any of your patients one of my patients taught me this term play the tape forward where he would say say you know filled recovery saying yeah yes when they'd say oh what was it tape played out yeah so this guy he was. He was struggling with alcohol use disorder so he'd be thinking well. If I have this drink when I'm going to have another drink and then I have another and then moving into there's frontal. If it's too soon early in their sobriety that frontal function isn't there can't play it out yeah they can't so that's where we can actually step into that process in terms of well directly played out right now like what's it feel like now they have that strong cravings and can we actually you know in this moment work with that craving right there. Take that Energy and subvert the dominant paradigm with curiosity itself. What are you you want to pick your brand new this? It just feels like we have a lot of work to do on the autonomic nervous system we really. We'd really don't know how it's organized really yet. We don't I certainly don't we don't have the Paris island something in medical. Just he's weird where I wasn't learned. I didn't learn about the Afrin component of the of the Vegas. I didn't know anything about that till ten years ago and that's eighty percent of the damn nerve is coming out out of the body to our brain yeah and how about this whole enteric nervous system this second brain we probably have more than the sound brain four or five of the baby and why is sympathetic system constructed the way it is. Why is it along with those nuclear on the spinal? Why why is it like that? Oh well you can you can see all the way the professors as well. That's what they're processing the EX. You know the sympathetic output yeah it exists. Why does it exist like that? They just said exist because it exists and I don't I don't understand that I think we need to understand why it exists like that and then what the hell's going on over our stomach and over our chest and we have no idea we know kind of what goes on in the brain with a little bit kind of but we're pretty brain centric gay yeah right get ready to turn out for the dance room on podcast just one coin renowned veteran dancers and Choreographers Heather Morris from Glee and Eva flav as they share their onstage stories chat with guests and recap all your favorite T._v.. Dance shows download new episodes of the dance room every week on Apple podcast and podcast one blue dot com everybody. This offers men a well. 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When you get your true cash offer you head under the TRUECAR certified dealer and drive off with your new car well it could be a used cars as well don't forget truecar has new and use so when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car checkout true car today? Do you think there's this my big question is there's a receptive Jeff tive element in our prefer automatic system in our body because sometimes it feels like it yeah well where did that saying gut feeling come from well but the gut but my question is for sure it got fee but but is the gut receiving something from the outside Cyberworld or is it the brain somehow reflecting in the gut which is I think how we've always thought about it. I thought the something weirdly receptive in our body yeah I think we're again pretty brain centric jar and I think that the two are absolutely related to so each other and you know there's this back to the interests of awareness piece. There's a whole lot that we're not actually paying attention to that has to do with us really sensing stuff in our body we privilege vision actually way more than anything else yeah and we're missing out on so much of all these other processes in abilities to really pay attention and receive information but we're just not paying attention. You nicely put in their receive information. I don't think most academics have faith that there's anything received other than our bodily function which is sort of embedded in the world and it's a punch us in the stomach. We'd have a feeling but I don't think they the rest of it that in more intuitive initiative element of this faith in that out there yet well you know to really be assigned as we have to be being wrong yeah yeah in in you make much of right brain left Bain sorts of functional differences. Now I mean there's some clear wins like language switch and things like that but I think some of the others that people got really excited about <hes> have not you know stood the test of time I think the dichotomy around zooming in versus having this holistic view is probably the one that's spin the born the test of time most in terms of right and left brain still fill hold that right is more holistic and left more segmented or whatever <hes> what what is your research. What do you preoccupied with? We're really we've been we spent twenty years really trying to understand how habits form and then we've spent the last ten years really trying to zoom in on how we can very very specifically target those again to inhabit things things out inhabit things and move beyond the willpower myth. Is there a I'm sure we can go. This doctor Judd Dot Com. Yes the R. J. U._D.. Dot Com is there a world where we start to focus on good good habits. I mean Aristotle pointed that out thousands of years ago that character is about repetitive habits do. Are you involved with that at all that sort of interest me these days yeah you know if we really understand the brain and if we really understand our habits were this knowledge can generalize and this is actually what we see with a lot of folks are in our programs whether it's our eating in our eat right now programmer unwinding anxiety program even in our craving equip program for smoking. We're seeing that people are really <hes> they get how their mind works and they see okay. I can own let go of his old habit but they start to see things like connection. Kindness generosity actually feel good in themselves and this is where are you know the aristotle notion of of character back then they also talked about you die Monia <hes> which is this this piece and equanimity that comes with simply being truly connected in not <hes> not caught up in our own personal view of the world and we can see you know when when I'm when we're totally into having a relationship or really just even having a good connection through a conversation it feels great but if we don't don't know how that works. We're just GONNA be like well. That was fine. How did I do that but if we say okay well? Let's line this up. What did you just do what was the result of what you did and we can help people really zoom in on was there a closed quality or an open equality and that close quality which lines up with craving which lines up with disconnection rumination anything when we're regretting the path worrying about the future all that stuff leads to this close down quality of experience we can people see what leads to that so that there they get less excited to do that and then they stopped doing those things and we can also help them see the opposite so when they're connected with somebody when actually put down their phone and have a conversation with somebody well I think we can actually hack that we can actually tap into that process in help? People see that much more clearly and then they're going to naturally brain is just going to naturally inclined in that direction because feels better the this this he donald versus you demonic happiness is sort of so we've lost. Who'd lost track in this country? What happens is yeah and I think we can get it back? I absolutely think we can get it back. You know whether it's with with these APPs his way to give people a tangible way to do this and it's really interesting. I was in my clinic. It's like why can help one person I can off a couple of folks but then we really wanted to step back and say how can we help people on a population level and one thing I realized was that people don't learn to stress heat in my office. They don't learn to smoke in my office so could actually take my office to them and that's when we started looking at developing digital therapeutics database and you have studies now showing the efficacy of these the APPs yeah are eat right now. Program we published a two thousand seventeen study showing that we got forty percent reduction Shannon craving related eating. We got we did a study with anxious physicians. Welcome was one of the easiest studies art yeah some of the surgeon in denial right <hes> close to a sixty percent reduction in Gad seven scores. He's generalizing disorder seven prisoners and what time three months wow yeah yeah we just finished in neuro imaging study with are craving equip program where we could scan people's Dell's brains at baseline who are trying to quit smoking randomized them to get our craven equip program or the National Cancer Institute's APP scan them a month later and find that mindfulness training directly change their brain mechanisms which directly led to clinical outcomes in terms of reduction smoking nothing in the control group so insecurity generally for sure and addiction and these kinds of behaviors one of my grave concerns is the timeline of research amid never goes more than about six months. I mean rarely do you have stuff that come comeback three five years you planning anything like that to see where they are. Those studies are pretty hard to do so a lot of a lot just assume lost a follow up his using. That's the one thing they never do in research. There's a loss to follow. Relapse have guaranteed most host with lots of folks that is the case in a lot of research is moving in that direction where that very conservative way to look at the research with smoking in particular <hes> people have found that six months equals a year equals two years and says smoking if somebody's quit and with eating for example sample about twelve months is a pretty good indicator of somebody's GonNa keep the weight off are you. Are you sharing some your stuff with some of the other big leaders addiction field like John Kelly and I'm freezing those guys are the interested all this the Don Kelly and particularly speaking at a conference together a little while ago. I'm in it's really interesting to see the connection between twelve steps programs for example. Some some of this stuff is very very similar. It's not as explicit so it well. That's such patients may not be as motivated to follow it that being said because it may not have they made it deeper understanding why that stuff's being asked to them yeah. I think this is where mindfulness can actually work pretty well with some of these programs like I or step is i. I don't have control well. We need this. Look just look at any diet program. That says you've failed willpower versus it failing you you know so the more we surrender in let go of that the more we can actually start to step back and say well how it is my brain everything yeah and and the addicts are afraid to surrender or that are they're using doesn't want them to yet. I mean the motivational state there in WHO's not afraid of surrender. We have to actually open up and be vulnerable so it's a it's a natural protective active mechanism that we have to work with. Do you have any tips for people through that. I think a lot of people talk about hitting rock bottom and they think they're easy but that's where they're like. Well everything else failed so once and I don't think we needed. We need to absolutely hit rock-bottom for that but one way to help people start to see this is just in moment in their daily lives. Where is it? Where's a moment where I've resisted something whereas a moment where I've really put up a wall and can I looked at sea is that actually making things worse or better and not then as they start to one another minds work then they can see how that generalizes to these other pieces where it's like? Wow you know forcing. Things didn't help here. It didn't help here didn't help here wait a minute. I see a pattern and then they actually open to seeing Oh. Maybe there's a different way. I think a lot of people do see B._T.. Kind of this way and addiction setting they kind of look at the same stuff I don't they know that what they're doing but yeah. It's an interesting piece they they are intuitively moving in that direction and I love to see you know C._b.. teed there's a lot of this piece. Catch it. Check it change it well prefrontal CORTEX which is Weird C._p._T.. Seems to be working is the weakest part of our brain from an evolutionary perspective and so it's we can't really rely on that piece to help us win where stressed or more anxious or when all these things the precipitate relapse so the peace there is to say can we actually step back and instead head of trying to change something really tapping and let our brain change at for us well. My instinct has always been that that is able to happen because of the connection that they get cvt and it may maybe just the empathic atonement and that's more impactful than the actual well people have shown that that's really really important as well and I think we can also have tim it with ourselves. You know 'cause we're often. We distance ourselves from ourselves. We go to these things to numb ourselves not feel our bodies as you know live short distance from our body so to speak and that's actually where some of these awareness practices can help as well does. Trauma get managed through all this stuff to or there's a lot of work being done with mindfulness in trauma comment foreign on mindfulness people well as you know a lot of people start using because of trauma has so common yeah <hes> and does that interest you that area researchers at it's absolutely interesting. I think it's a article piece to look out yeah I don't. I just think that it's so common right now are we are we in a epidemic of this or is it always been common too humid. I think figured out yeah my sense is that people are just reporting and looking more. You know it's living longer with it. Probably yes yeah yeah. I'm people I imagine trauma in the past. Oh I've had a question for you. I don't know if you're comes into your stuff at all but I've always been wondering about repetition. Traumatic reenactments that there's this uncanny thing thing that people do they into me. The reenactments are usually based on attraction. There motivational states more than anything people just people are listening. If you had and abusive alcoholic father you might find yourself magically attracted to abusive alcoholic man if you're a woman or vice versa man and you think if we from evolutionary sport important point of view we would do the opposite we'd avoid the guys the particular that person traumatized as we'd avoid that but we don't were actually three and it's not like and people always go. Oh it's because it's familiar that that is a flimsy that is a flimsy explanation especially when attraction is linked into it they can spot these people across the room at are drawn to them. Yeah Yeah Yeah let's dive into the brain is actually a prediction machine. It is trying to predict the future and then somebody i. It's something really say that that's what they think. Memory is that memory is in sort of projecting forward by kind of encoding the past yeah absolutely yeah so the future is totally dependent on memory without memory. It's hard to it's hard to make any any sense in predictions for the future so our brains are doing their best to help us have a stable relationship with the future saying I know exactly what's going to happen and and they would they would prefer certainty over something that is quote unquote better yeah and so the brain's going to say okay. I know exactly how this is going to go and there's this quality of reinforcement that says I would rather know how it goes then not know how it goes but I would rather I would actually more explicitly. I want this because there's a motivation to it. I want that again and and there's an it's almost like there's a map. There's some sort of mapping that were sort sort of stepping in to make sense now seem more about that. I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about really. It's almost like much the way we're saying that encoded memories away of predicting the future is like there there is with that abusive Alcoholic Dogfather is there is a whole story narrative mapping almost of what's coming with that that I want that and it may be attached to something we call love or whatever that is if you're ready to tackle that yeah that that sort of that's what we want. Is that again but it's interesting so let's go there with you love. There's been a fair amount of research now where we can actually disentangle romantic love from stable <hes> more like you'd Daimona route so that's interesting that right isn't it later phases of love some the the work. That's most consistently been found is around so nucleus accumbens get gets activated do that again right yeah. Maybe the whole thing just do that again well well. I think there's more nuance to so there. Some folks have found that actually there's a default more network this self-referential network that is involved in terms of not only early stage romantic love but also in obsessive love so so even in the default mode network yet say it's a network involved in self-referential processing. Basically you know when we're lost in the past one. We're worried about the future when we're craving drugs when word when we're ruminating when we're per separating basically anytime we get caught up dinner experience as it relates to me that network gets activated ear based I wouldn't it's it can be related to fair so for example fear leads to this contraction yes right and so that contracted quality quality. We've actually mount that in my lab that contracted quality activates the post your cingulate cortex one of the main hubs Default Mon network interestingly. We've found that same brain region gets quiet inexperienced meditators because it gets quiet when people are being curious for example. I talked to Antonio Damasio and he said that's what's most thoroughly knocked out during dement Alzheimer's Dementia Yeah I know it's this paradox. The cosmic joke that the more we think about ourselves more likely to forget who in life so crazy hiring Zaidi's associated with Alzheimer's that are more so more metabolic activity has been associated in there have been some indirect links with anxiety leading to <hes> leading to Alzheimer's or predisposing folks looks to Alzheimer's as well so and then the more we start worrying never gonna get Alzheimer's more. That's just can't make it worse he was he was saying that he really felt that post. Era singlet. You're talking about is where the self like resided yes. There's my my labs actually separate to their two main hubs of the fault men that were the post your single. It's one of them and then there's this medial prefrontal CORTEX and my lab and others have really parse this out a bit where the medial prefrontal Cortex seems is to be involved in the conceptual sense of self so I get up look in the mirror and say oh yeah that's judd but the experiential quality to that that says you know if I'm like Oh my here's going great and I contract around that that's the experiential self and we've actually really map that using. That's pushed your cingulate cortex oriential sell. That's interesting thing. Get your head around yeah so from. Let's use a concrete example so I if somebody says Oh you know your podcast sucks and you're like what ah that's inexperienced that says okay this is me and then outside of that contraction is the rest of the world so when we practice mindfulness for example we can start to see oh. There's that contracted quality of experience. What does that lead? You Know How's that how's it going for you basically so we start to see the that is less exciting but we can also bring in awareness and kindness and connection in that moment and start to move from that contracted state to more open state and as we move and move move in that direction action we start to lose a sense of our boundary and where where we end in where the rest of the world begins and so two that and I've noticed and if this fits with that story you've just told that people that are grateful and forgiving. Are you doing pretty damn well yeah so what gratitude is not a contracted state. It's more of an Opel state yeah same for generosity. It's not a contracted status an open status as long as it's true pure your generosity. It's not like I'm going to do this so I get that's more than wanting right. It's again back and recovery teaching that and being the object of it to some you have to learn how to do oh Yeah Yeah well that brings invulnerability so here so you know I love this idea that vulnerability its strength because if we let go of this protective armor that we put up like healthcare providers we learned in medical school in residency like you gotta armor up gotTa be tough. Don't show weakness and all this stuff. Will that is actually where we're seeing burnout and I think because it's a lot of work to protect ourselves in the coming at you. There is a lot of stuff on as well so we could do two things one is we can put up the armor to protect ourselves or two who we could start to see through this this self protective mechanism and open ourselves to being vulnerable and realized you know what I don't actually have to take any of this stuff personally and when we realize oh I don't have to take this personally. There's this huge burden lifted did psychiatric patients are pretty good getting under your skin they arm but we know how the mind works. It's right truly I learned this firsthand working with folks with borderline personality just say project of identification they are. They're better her. They're just geniuses brilliant. Oh my God I are brilliant. I it's going to sound weird but my head nurse used always should go like this. You make like my favorite Martian antennas under head because the borderlines borderlines seemed to know when I walked onto the campus block two blocks away yeah. There's there centene fresh meat so good. They're so good but anyway so there is a better fo that I you know what I mean. In terms of protecting research project applications essentially people putting their yucky feelings in the you and you catch him you. It's hard not do well for me that was that was one of the big enigmas. It's like what the Hell is going to happen to you and when I really started working with with these folks you have to a lot to get your feet under you know what I realized as I looked at because he was like I had to memorize the criteria 'cause I could just couldn't wrap my head around it and what you feel like all you remember never feels like Oh yeah that's right. I just got stabbed time. I don't even know what you did why that happened so if we look at this from roared base learning perspective it's really interesting. I wrote a part of a chapter on this and even unpublished a scientific papers this where if you look at intermittent reinforcement with reinforcing reinforcement learning now if you look at the criteria so there's an unstable sense of self and they're doing all these things like I'm borland yeah in borderline so we're. Being were were using humor. We're not being disdainful people or they suffer believe me suffer and I was much or more than most people yeah yeah yeah and so is this is not to make little of that disorder. It's a serious thing if anything it's just a laugh at myself in terms of how much I got dragged into it yeah for and fool and by the way and we're both laughing ourselves probably earlier in our career. Will we get sucked in and spun around in ways that we shouldn't have been if we were more skilled if well and that's why I learned a whole lot from this so if you look at <hes> people with borderline personality disorder unfortunately a lot of them have had a childhood trauma history course so if you think of the parent whose alcoholic walking through the door the kid doesn't know whether mom or dad is going to love them or hit them and so in in that sense they're they're. They're spidey senses are up and they're having this completely unstable childhood so they get intermittently reinforced and so they never develop a stable sense of self and so there you know that that part of them jacked up just trying to find some stable to hold onto and as they do that more and more and more you know they realized well they don't realize but it subconsciously there isn't really anything to hold onto especially when when somebody gets idealized you know they idealize Eli somebody trying to get that stable stable bond and then somebody says wow this is weird. I'm leaving and then well it's but they precipitated sometimes which is back to those room reinforcing reward maps or whatever we're calling them. Yeah yeah absolutely yeah so if you you bring all this together they're actually a pretty good model if you look at reinforcement learning and especially pay attention to the pieces related to the intermittent reinforcement which we now know is the most reinforcing type of learning basically. It's like it's it's how the slot machines work. You know you don't win every time or otherwise the casinos wouldn't or what skinner have the case of the superstitious pigeon yeah right yeah absolutely there was a pigeon that they have the he had his pigeons skinner boxes and they would get reinforced at sandown down some corn pellets or something but this one pitch and they send down randomly and the pigeon developed always elaborate behaviors because the pigeon thought in quotes that these all these lower behaviors what caused the corn to come down. It was just completely random. Yep that's Gus. That's where our superstition may becomes from yeah so if we can understand that so for example when I started understand that instead of following the rule for example working with my patients with borderline personality disorder said if you know there's this rule. I don't let your visits go long. Make sure you start them on time. Do all this stuff and I was like okay. What's I don't know why I'm doing this but I'm doing it realized it's helping them even in very little way start to form some stability stability structure yeah and so that structure helps develop a stable sense of south even if it's as simple as we're stopping our session at fifty minutes? Every time you know doesn't matter how much the worst Dr Ever GonNa Kill Myself Oh and so that so if we don't worry about protecting ourselves right if we don't take that personally we can actually that it's limitless to be able to to take that and this is where we can move from empathy compassion are wrote a chapter about this in my my book where you at the craving craving mind yeah so we can move from using the example of healthcare providers because that's what I know from personal experience we get four supposed to put ourself in our patients shoes and our patients are suffering offering than if so factor we're going to be suffering quite a bit. We're going to be taking a lot of stuff personally. If we realized that we don't have to take things personally that we can actually you not have to bring all this energy to self protection if we let go vet it frees up all this energy to be with our patients and to be with their suffering without taking it personally here you talk about that reminds me of I'm an internal by training and we're given none of <music> this in our training I even as a psychiatrist I was given this and it came late for me. Without lady came you know as a result of working in psychiatric setting and and we got to find find a way to communicate that to our peers but I think so we're really losing ground and it's not it's not that difficult. It's it's it's. It's you know what I mean. It's not challenging intellectually just requires diligence and practice and motivation. I'm glad you say that because a lot of people I think especially because physicians are really burnt out in our study. My research assistant just calculated the average age of the people that joined our study ready for this forty five so folks are burnt out mid career. You know they've only been in practice like twelve or eighteen not a very long time. Oh Yeah it's easy to Brown right that so I actually put together just a Free C._M._e.. Course for Physicians for any healthcare providers providers that really just want to understand the basics of this roar base learning system because I didn't learn it in residency training and we specific focus specifically focused two modules on burnout and developing resilience because like you're talking about this. The principles are pretty simple. We just have to understand the basics of them and then we can start to apply them to not only helping our patients overcome bad habits but help us become more resilient. Yeah I kind of manifest. This Bernard noticed in my period was everyone started jumping into sort of administrative. Just other judge couldn't do the clinical stuff anymore younger guys game. That's really too bad because that's when you were in in primary care especially. That's where the wisdom comes in scene. It's not just okay. I learned this medical school in residency but we're like. No you know there's a nuance here that you don't learn in residency. I smell it literally second olfactory. That's so deep and so I can trust it so much there you when you have this kind of experience yeah so these are the folks we wanNA keep healthcare as long as possible and help them realize living in that direction we're we're fact for taking that group and putting them a step back and putting a bunch of extenders in front of him I know because we don't realize that's like this this quick fix solution as compared to stepping back and realizing we actually might know enough that we've got a solution. That's more tenable and can help everybody in the long run. It's not that hard to do but I agree with you right now with this quick fix mentality that the the systems rooms have it's it's. We've got realize that that quick fix the next quick vixen the next quick fixes bandaids upon bandaids yeah. I'm not sure we'll call it even quick fix well. That's just a it's a car wash is like mentality and I'm not sure they expect to be fixed. Just they wanna be done with it. It's like well the system saying okay somebody's burnt out. We need to fill them in so we extenders. That's why I'm looking at that band but I like the car was analogy. I think that works because it's always I think for me. It's it it's all done founding life work grade and so if people are interested in this. Let's let's say you don't have anxiety just interested in the topic we we've been talking and with the craving might be the best place to go crazy minds good. We've also put together some resources on my website Dr Dot Com you know everything from animations where people can actually learn how the mind works through. We have this one on everyday addiction. So people can learn you know why we get this from shopping to smartphones to hardcore addictions and then for healthcare providers we have this free course where people can just really start to learn the basics of their mind and of course if they want that can read my also twitter at Jan Brewer V._R.. E wer Instagram instagram at D._R.. Period Judd right and <hes> do is this educational the Social Media Yes yeah. That's how we spend most of that time so I'm going to follow on that on those fronts and and as you go forward what is there something preoccupying now worrying you as you look at the world from the perspective. You now have just curious. I guess I'm asking more philosophy question now. That were yeah I'm with the brain. I'm worried that were losing being the ability to think I think as humans that's one of our most beautiful and precious resources is this ability to wonder into think into rest in ought to just go out in nature and not be doing something did did now thinking is a lot of things and we always a thoughtful thinker or that some come through your training. I I've always been one. That's been fascinated with how the world works and I love to understand things and I think as I went through life you know I would would go out in nature and gone backpacking trips and just love to just to rest I in nature and I started getting into meditation to just really rest in being rather than doing so. Would you say we're losing the capacity to think because because I here's my personal experience I was sort of a lazy thinker until I went to college and then it just it take turned on it became I went. I got my ass handed to me in my collegiate training and it was good but I was not a great thinker before that is that kind of thinking like analytical careful objective thought you're talking but I think it's more the creative <hes> where we're we just need time to let our mind do it's thing as compared to let me solve a problem you know great if we can put aware twitter in our cell phones for for ten minutes we can do you know we can solve most of those those things relatively industry for manner. What I'm talking about? Is that making those deeper connections that only our brain is doing when we're out of our own way would also include like reading fiction and that kind kind of thing. I think those are always great ways to kind of let our brains Cook in information yeah just reading good stories helps our brains practice like just imagining yes. That's what it seems. We don't do much much of that anymore. Well we're constantly. We read for five minutes and then our brains is who aren't gotTA check my social media and then it's you know it's Bing Bing Bing Bing on the reward system yeah. If you weren't doing this. What would you be doing? I can't think of anything more important than helping people so honestly it's done this kind of loaded question. I get that yeah well listen. I I really appreciate you sharing with me because it's all stuff I'm fascinated by maybe just a smidge above a dilettante but not much and so I really appreciate your expertise and bringing all here. I'm GonNa read the book. I'm preoccupied with all this stuff right now just because it's just I'm interested in human experience like you are and I think we're just getting close some really interesting stuff right now. We are getting really close. I think the pieces where we're starting to see these clear links in we're in sync significant results. I mean forty percent reduction in craving related eating crazy. You know so that's pointing something that people are going to really have to take notice. Is there a name for this is behavioral Psychiatry's Neuro Behavioral Psychiatry Name. I think we've put lots of names on. It doesn't really doesn't know field of this. I think behavioral well. I mean behavioral neuroscience. A science behavioral psychiatry. I think is a good way to put as compared to pharmacologic. Psychiatry behaviorisms has the fairy sort of certainly has a history where it it hasn't been great history so I thanks feel disconnected from that appeals something new because it's so brain-based it is very brain-based but some of the basic learning processes you know we carried on similar yeah we can't ignored the things that skinner discovered and in fact if you look at the ancient Buddha the psychologist discovered wade these things before he did all overlaps stuff works yeah and they're just can we do it better as a question. Absolutely I think we can we can't even start to personalize this as we start to bring in you know these personal dynamics and it does this work in particularly Welford this person or this person we even see this with our APP based or anything we have enough data now where we can actually do some of this deep learning and look to see. Can we personalized this for this person or this person. It's almost like oncology personalized individualized. Yes very interesting. I think behaviorally we need to hold ourselves to those same standards with oncology. They've moved from you. Know a blow your cancer before your blood your body and I think we can get that personalized with baby training as well as we we get better a veteran understanding to go to Dr John dot com on binding anxiety APP eating eat right right now and the mind. Thank you so much. Thank you preach next time for Colin Times and topics followed the show on twitter twitter and Dr Drew podcast. That's D._R.. D._R._A.. W podcast music through today's episode can be found on the swinging sounds of the document podcast now available on itunes and while you're there don't forget to rate the show to Dr Drew podcast asked Corolla digital production has produced by Chris Locks on and Gary Smith for more information go to Dr Drew Dot Com all conversation and information exchange during the participation in the doctor podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only do not confuse us with treatment or medical advice correction nothing on these podcasts supplement or supersede relationship interaction of your medical hair tapers. Although Dr drew is a licensed physician with specialty certifications by the American Board of Internal Medicine in the American Board of Addiction Medicine is not functioning physician in this environment the single flies professionals who may appear on the podcast or Dr Drew Dot COM NAPA know this month at Napa when you buy a five four jug babbling. 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I got new lyrics for the rap Break Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Pricing Coverage Match Limited by State Law Muller Preview. I'm Ed Donahue with an A._p.. News Minute F._B._I.. Director Christopher Ray was on Capitol Capitol Hill staying away from the Robert Muller Russia report. We'll center. I WANNA be careful not to be discussing. The Special Counsel Support Muller Testifies Tomorrow. President trump says it's time for the Democrats to stop the investigation no collusion no obstruction yeah. No that's not good enough. Let's go more forty million dollars interview. Five hundred people got nothing speaking today in Washington the president also continue to the tack on the press. They don't check. They don't do anything they really really dishonest. People and I'll tell you.

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