9 Episode results for "North West Wyoming"
High Avalanche Danger Out West Affects Transportation And Ski Areas
"To another story now. It's been a chaotic couple of weeks in the rocky mountains where large avalanches have closed highways ski resorts a single storm near Salt Lake City. It triggered a record forty eight slides as NPR's Kirk siegler reports. The increased avalanche risk comes at a time when more and more people are hitting the slopes in the high country. God probably Craggy Teton Mountains of North West Wyoming steep and deep Jackson hole is as a magnet for extreme skiers right. They're buddies goading them on on Matt Beauregard. And Rick lawler drop a fifteen foot cliff in this glade. Area called the tower three shits as just a melody honestly. You were just rep around rounded bounce. Skiing inbounds inside. The patrolled boundaries of the ski resort generally thought to be safer when it comes to avalanches. That's because all season skiers. I've been packing this snow down and stabilising it. But Matt Beauregard knows that's no guarantee we've actually triggered small slides on this exact face. They may duck a rope and ski ski out of bounds into the back country. But even here at the resort. They're wearing avalanche transceivers and safety gear. Just in case education's probably the most important thing. Rick here's wearing an air bag for added protection so in the case that he is stuck inside an avalanche you'll be able to pull this cord and hopefully float to the surface inbounds or in the back country. Avalanche danger is high across the mountain west. An unusually snowy early season followed by drought than dry powder. Storms then a punch of heavy wet snow last weekend in Utah. Today's storm dumped six and a half feet in Little Cottonwood Canyon home to the snowbird and Alta resorts awards and it ended up closing little cottonwood for fifty four hours and forty eight. Avalanches were reported one of those hit. The Road Mickey Champion is a forecaster here at the Utah Avalanche Center. She recorded wind speeds up to a hundred miles an hour on Ridge tops that further destabilize the already volatile snowpack in the Wasatch satch mountains. And then you put a big wrong heavy load or a wind load on top of that it just kind of upside down. It's like a pyramid when you take out the Baser Django when you remove one of the pieces says there were no fatalities reported in Utah. But last month skiers were buried and killed in avalanches within patrolled terrain at resorts in California and Idaho. Oh all of this is putting the round. The clock work. People tasked with keeping these mountains safe under the microscope Jackson Hole. Ski Patrol Director Drew Neilan stepping into his bindings above. You can't see it in the fog now. But there's a big cirque above us here and that's Casper Bowl. All and all that terrain is avalanche terrain every morning at dawn before the tram and the Gondolas Starts Spinning Army of Nielsen's patrol or detonating explosives lives to intentionally trigger slides. Now so skiers don't later and some of these can even be detonated remotely thanks to new robot like trolleys that reach even more dangerous surest remote places. Obviously we worry about avalanches coming down into the heavily congested areas. So that's one of our biggest concerns to get that work done early. Another big concern is simply that more. People are venturing out further into areas. They normally wouldn't have thanks to improved equipment. I think people assume that we're able that. We have the ability to completely eliminate the risk of avalanches within the scary. And that's just not the case but avalanche forecasters say along with the increased risk. It comes a new cachet becoming cool to say. You've taken avalanche courses and Dir as prepared as you can be Kirk Siegler N._p._R.. News Jackson Wyoming.
Adventures for Food: Ep 07 - Blueberries and Black-Tails
"Pursuit food has taken us into the wilderness cross rivers and atop mountains. These journeys have connected to the wild. It is this connection that allows us to experience while places. This world has to offer in search for both wild game and adventure. This is my adventure for food. Hey guys will just gonna talk through adventure. I had a couple of years back. This one's going to take us into into the mountains there and it was my first trip. I had up to alaska. I've made a few trips up there. In traditionally grew up. You know hunting. The planes in texas on the western plains wyoming montana but had that chance to go up to alaska i would say about two years back and i had a good friend up there. He was working for the local police department. He's like man. You love the hunt. Alaska's place you need to be so we set up a hunt in a getting ready and he's like best pieces of game up here is early season black tailed deer so we were going to do a great black tailed deer hunt right in the mountains. of northeast of sitka alaska so sick of sits on the western side of baranov island. Which is fun fact. The brown bear capital of the world. I think they've got a one brown bear per square acre in so covered up with bears. But it's also covered up with dearest. Man you gotta get up here so we plan the trip. We had booked a cabin. You know laid out all my gear. Getting ready to go never really hunted in high alpine terrain before i chased mule deer and antelope down the lower planes. And you know into the foothills of some of the mountains in north west wyoming but never to this extent what we did was i flew up landed on the the little strip. They've got their in sitka. He rolled up through my guns in the back. And the first thing we did. Because i don't think any trip would be a- any trip to alaska would really be worth it. If you didn't get a little fish in and i you know you gotta go for that. Alaska surf and turf feel there. So we took his boat out. We went ahead and throughout some trot lines for halibut and then also trolled for salmon. We picked a couple silvers up that day and then later on the afternoon. We pulled up the hotline. At first i was thinking man trot line. You know that's not very sportsman's like you know. I prefer the rod and reel or a fly rod. He's like don't worry you'll feel like you've done enough work. So hauling up six hundred feet of trot line later with a few thirty pound weights on it and about four to five sixty pound halibut. Really a really made it worth our while so we went ahead and took the fish head and flayed him up. Got him ready. Went to bed. Early woke up the next morning. We took his truck up to the top of a local mountain. Just on the back side of it. There's a little trail that kind of skirts up into the alpine. That overlooks the city. And we would start a push into the interior island. What's really cool. About southeast lasco's the forest service is very active there in the conservation effort and while they don't allow a ton of camping. They've actually put a few little cabins. Go you know ten by twelve cabins up there. They're only about six foot tall for weather concerns. So we pack in about four to five miles backup in these mountains. We find one of these cabins so we said all are gearing there and as probably you all know august timeframe you're going to get a lot of rain up in alaska so was a nice little break from the wet and the soggy -ness of the hike up and so he broke out all our gear and we took the next ridge of us started setting up started glasses and it was awesome experience. I'd never seen such mountains and beauty and sitting up there just glass and watching dear picking them out a mile two miles away and he'd be like hey man check that out and like the bush no it was a deer and we would just look and i think we counted nine the first day and then Whether drove us back to the cabin so we packed up. Went back to the cabin for the night. Woke up the next morning did the same thing all day and just being able to sit up in those mountains watching the clouds foot by you and picking out these dear. It was a great experience and a lot of will be like. Hey man. can we get to that one. He'd be like nope. Nope patients just watch and wait. And what's really cool about that time of year to is you have all. The blueberries are in season. So as you're hiking and sitting up there and you know it's just a lush green. You still have snow on top of most of the mountains and you're watching mountain goats move through and you know different bears moving around kind of in the lower brush and then spot in these deer that are caught in the middle between the two species. They're just eating blueberries. Your heart heart's content. That is some of my favorite memories from this trip. Is just sitting watching the wildlife eating blueberries up there but kinda come to the end of the second day. I think we saw eleven year that day. Nothing really that we could get to With the train so harsh if there you really only have about you know half a day to get to an animal to be able to put an ethical shot on him so we went ahead went to bed. That night woke up the next morning. And what typically happens. In alaska's we were socked in with fog. I mean you could barely see forty fifty yards in front of you. I mean it was crazy. it was thick. And he's like man. We just gotta wait it out so. We sat made some coffee to sat on the porch of this little cabin. Just watching the world go by enjoying life. Pick some areas. You know made some freeze dried. I think it was beef stew classics sitting up there enjoying life waiting for the fog. It wouldn't and we're like man. We we gotta go out hunting. We only have one full day after this so we got to go out and we were walking on. It was a couple resigns above the cabin the day before. And there's this little bowl that was kind of scooped out of the mountain and it was just blueberry bushes and then a nice gradual grassy slope into the treeline. Okay let's go sit up there. There's not a lot of cover up there. It's not a great place to sit but the wind was in our favor and with the fog. Really hurting visibility. We're thinking that we may be able to pull it off. So he and. I take the two hour hike up there. You get in place about three hours before dark and just sit eating blueberries kinda just leaning back and join the scenery and about thirty minutes before all of a sudden. This cinnamon shadow just starts materializing out of the out of the treeline. There and it was. It was a spike. It was illegal spike black tail deer in. We had buck tags. I had buck tax at the time. And so we get ready to make a shot and then just behind him. Here comes another cinnamon shape and it was a three by three black tail. You stolen velvet. I was good sized deer for that size of animal and we decided that he was gonna be the one and We had. I was shooting at the time it was a three hundred winchester mag because i was expecting you know. Take a two three hundred yard. Shot here in alaska. And i wanted something to be able to really buck the wind but It was a seventy five yard shot because of the visibility we could barely make it out watched them for a while so i popped the scope caps. I get it up slowly moving. Because they're right on top of us. And i get it up to my and i made a rookie mistake in southeast. Alaska is that i didn't have a scope cleaning cloth with me and the do in the condensation The moist weather we were at the time had totally fogged up my scope so i had a slowly lower back down to a corner my shirt and was trying to wipe it off all of these deer coming right towards us and then the wind shifts. And i'm like oh it's over. They're gonna smell us. They're going to spook and thankfully they didn't. They just stopped and they look at us and it was just enough time for me to kind of roll. My side put my knee up rested the four under the rifle on my knee. And you know that that squeeze. The trigger in that silent evening was just shattered by that crack that three hundred and he dropped right then and there. It was. It was awesome. It was that big adrenalin rush. That we did it. We'd done what we came to do. And so we came down and got it. Look at him in those black-tailed you're really cool. They're not as big as the meal. Or like your even your south texas whitetail deer but there cool animal. They're real cinnamon with that signature. Black tail still involve it so. Of course we take a few pictures right then in there and we're soaked to the bone while we look miserable but we were having a great time. So we're sitting there gutten quartering skin debone all the meat and man. I was excited. But all i could think about was that i am in the brown bear capital of the world and we had seen so many bears at this point. And you know. I'm covered in blood and that's all i could think about as the sunset and we begin our two mile or i'm sorry two hour hike back to the cabin but we did. It was fine. We only saw a couple of bears and they left us well alone get to the cabin. Cook up another meal cooked up a little strap right then and there on the mountain. Just pan-fried it didn't delicious with We took some blueberries and squish them up kind of made a little sauce with it and it was great next morning we looted are packs back up. You know trophy hanging off the top of the of the pack. Just feeling like you're on top of the world for rod four or five mile hike back and we drove down the mountain back to his place in when we got there. We cut up some salmon halibut. Some venison had some good surf and turf right there. Alaska style. i've been up to alaska. Say two more times hunt but that had to be the best experience. I've had up in alaska. Just it being such a new environment and it being such a cool memory with the blueberries and the deer goats and bear and you know that that was awesome to cap it off with some freshly fried halibut. Some good back strap off the deer. You just pulled out of the mountains. Yeah it's amazing. It's just an awesome adventure in food
From the Bleachers #53: The Eagles of Heart Mountain
"Be just brochure. I does this strange. I welcome to from the bleachers. I'm your host as always shame. Clancy come into from the wonderful leaning nation radio podcast network now. I'm sure by the time you've heard this may be carson wentz has been traded but for right now i will not be talking about carson wentz any moves the eagles are currently making today. I'm here talking with bradford pearson. Who had just released last month. A few weeks back a book entitled the eagles of heart mountain a true story of football incarceration and resistance and world war two america. Brad thanks for coming on dexter. Shame i really appreciate of course. Just run through the book over the weekend loved it especially wherein a little football law here. Obviously there is always exciting insane. Things going on eagles. Lambeau this role. Just passing them recording. This tuesday afternoon sunday. The nfl draft knocking after april through. Need something great to read right now. I've talked about In the fall some of my escapist delights to coat with such a disastrous eagles We such we just watched but for now. This is something i'd recommend. Bradford obviously reading this. It's not just a story about football but historical tome to degree to the history of japanese americans in this country at the end of the nineteenth and the beginning of the twentieth century. How did this come about. What is your background. That brawley chew something with this amount of depth. Yes so i came to this story. The first time. I came across the story of the harmattan eagles was in two thousand thirteen. I was actually. I was on a freelance assignments on. I'm a journalist. I used to be the features editor at southwest inflight magazine. I worked for a couple of different city magazines in the country. And i was working on a freelance story for this magazine called cowboys and indians the magazine of the west based in dallas. And they sent me up to wyoming to read a story about yellowstone and one day i was there and whereas with a small group in and somebody who is leading the tourists said. Hey let's go check out the old heart mountain relocation center. They have a museum there and it. It's really interesting. And i knew basically what everybody in america learns a little bit in high school which during world war two we incarcerated. One hundred twenty japanese-americans after pearl harbor. And that's pretty much all right. You know this thing happened in. That probably shouldn't have happened. But then when i got there i was pretty blown away by all the information that i learned and i walked out fairly embarrassed by how little actually knew about this period history but there was one small thing in the museum. That really stuck with me in that there was a line there about how the camp had a high school football team and how the high school football team blew away. The competition in wyoming and southern montana during these years at the camp was open. And that sorta stuff in me. You know. it's one of those things as a reporter. You hear little tidbits like that and you know you should always work on the stories that you can't get out of your head and this was one that stuck in my head for years before i really start working on it and and then sort of just steamrolled into going from a nugget of an idea in my head to three hundred thou- or not three thousand three hundred pages of book which i'm still pretty Surprised actually came out. One thing that really struck me here is that we don't think of american football as an international game. Yes there's been the world football league before there was a canadian football league but it's not soccer football. It's not basketball. It's none of these things and the way that these japanese some of them first generation you know we have different terms that you use the book for The lineage of japanese americans and japanese immigrants to the country that maybe not necessarily nine in the nineteen forties nineteen thirties. But today we think of american football as the pinnacle or the the thing that's most geist were the most talked about element of american culture. Is the national football league in football overall. So the fact that these were dealing with an incarceration that you know in the nearly eighty s years since then still really. Don't talk about enough. Or don't realize the depth of what occurred during that period and how long lasting or how much build up. There actually was to these sanctions in regulations against japanese in overall asian immigrants in their successive children in this country. But these people that were looked down upon his lesson american as spies or unpatriotic or when to be put into these camps for the sense of you know they don't fit our ideals of what americans are to excel at. The game of football is in a way. Maybe one of the most american things possible for someone to do yet that. Yeah and that's you sorry. Hit the nail on the head there as to what i found. So interesting about this story is that you know as white americans. We've sort of. If we think about japanese americans in any sport we tend to think of them as an in baseball right and a lot of that. Reason is because baseball sort of came up in japan at the same time as it did in america so as baseball was growing as quote. America's pastime growing on this parallel track in japan so when these japanese immigrants came to the united states there wasn't really learning curve for baseball. They could just be good baseball players like they were withheld from local leagues. And things like that because of racism but it wasn't because they didn't know how to play the sport now four football like you said it was. It was sort of this completely new game. So these guys show up. You know the first generation of japanese emigrants really starts to come in the united states in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century in pretty quickly on the west coast. These dudes in a lot of them are single. Most of them are single. That came over and didn't really have much to do. They were their asses off all day. And then on the weekend they form these teams start forming these football teams in san francisco in vancouver and seattle and they would play teams of chinese immigrants and then as their kids started becoming Older they were their children. Were born here. in america. They were americans and football was really sort of that. Last entry way of sports into you know what. We consider the you know the top tier of american athletics. So in the thirties and forties you. Start seeing some of these highschoolers start to play on teams in the l. a. area and san francisco and in the area. We now think of silicon valley and that was you know they started trickling in and it was sto sort of a rarity at that point to have a japanese american player on a high school football team but but they really started one player here two players there and then let's give too much away but then when these kids are ripped from their homes on the west coast and to this camp in wyoming in nineteen forty two they. You know only three kids at the camp in high school and ever played high school football before they get this opportunity. This coach white coach started scheduling games with local high schools. And then it was basically like okay. We've got these games scheduled now. We're going to teach had play football so you know it's pretty incredible. How good they were on on. Just because of the fact that they lived in these terrible barracks and were behind barbed wire. But i think it's incredible that you know forty kids. Try out for football. That first year in the first season nineteen forty-three and only three of them had ever played high school football before and then they just start stomping teams pretty quickly other than the as we discussed the the racial elements of the development of the game. I was even struck by how big the game had seen on the west coast of the united states in the nineteen thirties and forties. No they say you know. The legend is that rutgers and princeton played the first controversial game the first formal football american football game in you know in the late eighteen ninety s and then we have the building up of these ivy league programs in the northeast united states. Jails your harvard your princeton your pens and then know as the twentieth century kicks on then you have the development in the midwest. Obviously this is when or dean becomes sort of a national powerhouse. A national brand yet continues to stay even though they may not have the success in any capacity the way they had you know at this point literally hundred years ago but the development at even these lower levels these high school these barnstorming s teams in that period was something i had no knowledge about. Yeah that was really cool thing to learn about till because when we work so you have such sort of you know. They always talk about that east coast bias when it comes to like the a people's or whatever in good football but you know like you said like even our knowledge of that history is pretty east coast based like going through this book. You see how much good colleges like saint. Mary's were at football. Or san jose state or mary hardin or will amick college in like you have all of these schools that now. We don't even consider saint. Mary's doesn't have a program or will admit if they do. It's you know small and these junior college a junior college out on the west coast had Had huge football teams. There was you know. Basically you'll go juku ball for a couple of years in football that still exists but the extent that it did back then is was pretty incredible. When i was doing the research on this because so much of the book is based in california and up and down the west coast that when i was writing i really felt like i had to learn a lot about you know. La in general but then also the culture japanese american culture but then also what. The sports culture was in that in that world and the japanese american sports culture in los angeles specifically they had hold athletic leagues. Just like you know we have. Cyo and stuff here on the east coast but back in the thirties and forties in l. a. That had whole leaks just for japanese americans. The new say athletic union and they add baseball softball basketball and then later on this start having full football leagues Lifting swimming track and there were just these incredible competitions among japanese american athletes that really produced some incredible players in those sports and the kids that were at the top of those leagues eventually know the one of the main characters book is a guy named babe nomura and he eventually got to the top of that league basically said okay i gotta i gotta i gotta go play high school. Football here in l. a. did really prove myself as the athlete that i think i am in my community seems to to seems to know i am so that was it was. It was really interesting to to look through that history support for this. Podcast comes from progressive. What would you do with an extra eight hundred dollars. Buy a plane ticket. Pay down your student loan. Treat yourself to those shoes. You've niang with progressive. You can find out drivers who switch and save save an average of seven hundred ninety six dollars on car insurance get your quote online at progressive dot com and see how much you can be saving national average annual car insurance savings by new customer survey to save with progressive twenty nineteen and the process of writing the book. Did you have to end up traveling to the west coast to do some of this research. Yeah i was in wyoming four times and i went to l. a. couple times in wyoming's i mean i went to wyoming in the summer so So that made it a little bit easier. But i've been a bunch for work for other things but so much of this book and so much of the history of this book takes place in los angeles before the war and enduring the war. So i spent a lot of time there whether it was in hollywood or in little tokyo i went out to san anita race. Track where i want to japanese americans were first held before they went to the more permanent camps across the west so actually this doesn't get in the book because i i didn't use any first person but i remember there was. There was one day where. I knew that i had to go. I wanted to go to santa anita racetrack and and see where all these folks have been held because they get into it a little bit in the book. But when i go to santa anita a lot of the japanese. Americans are held in the horse stalls in stables. So i knew that i really wanted to. I just knew. I had to go see those stable but i also knew that they weren't going to let me into these stables just by walking in with a ticket to santa anita so parked my car like a mile away and walked in and kind of hop the fence and pretended is i remember. Wore my work boots and jeans and a tee shirt and just kind of like put my head down and just walked into the stalls area. Where i can't keep racehorses so you know you go through there and you see horses living in the same stables that our fellow americans were in in the spring and summer of nineteen forty two and you know it stinks i it. It absolutely stinks. It smells like horse. Smells like urine. Smells like feces in old straw. Just thing that this is where we put our fellow. Americans that was yeah so malet reporting and then every year in wyoming the site of the former camp has a reunion for people who are either former incarcerate who are incarcerated at heart mountain and their families. So i've been going to that for the last couple years to I you know to sort of meet sources and find families but they also have an archives out there at the museum. So i spent a lot of time in the archive and then just a lot of time meeting folks meeting japanese americans out there who had been incarcerated and there's wondering about the community and learning about wyoming northwest desolate north west wyoming can be Especially if you grew up in in hollywood maas angeles and you get sent to a camp in the middle of the high desert the breadth of the historic moments not specific to football but the overall japanese race relationships here. When you're in your you know. American history class in high school. There is obviously emphasis on racial history in this country but the idea of again japanese incarceration an order. The interactions between asians and asian americans in immigrants into this country is certainly something. That's way overlooked health far. Did you dig for some of this information because it's something that i obviously have really no clue about this. The history whether it's in your dealing with the mayor of san francisco or los angeles to the woodrow wilson roosevelt. Administration's you know. How did you get into this information. Obviously it's so long ago at this point. So i don't even know how much concrete interviewing gave you the greatest sense of infer looking at primary source material to what extent that this kind of consume you in this reporting. Yes so that was. That was something. When i went into the writing process that i didn't anticipate spending as much time on it as i ended up spending but basically ended up like you said you know. We weren't so much so little of this in high school. I started thinking back on it anything okay. When you're in high school you learn about japanese. American incarceration that what we usually typically all japanese internment and then maybe one about the chinese exclusion act in after the after the railroads are finished and those are really the two only things really talk about when you talk about asian american history so when i started writing this book i realize that i can take this story of this football team. This these heart mountain. He goes these kids that despite everything sort of band together and kick a ton of asks in wyoming but i also use their story to tell the broader story of japanese american life in the united states so a lot of that was as soon as i got my book deal. I just read. I read for months man and it was just like i knew that i wouldn't be able to authoritatively write the book. If i didn't have all this history ingrained in my brain like i knew that if you look at the back of the book the last hundred pages of the book are all foot gadjah so like but the thing is that like. I knew that i had to write the book. Having the information in my head like i couldn't be constantly checking constantly be like having books flipped open because then it it wouldn't have read well. It would have read like a book report. You know so. I knew that i had to re while these books and sort of internalize them and take this history and in those months people spend their careers. You know decades writing about this and learning about this but i knew that i had a few months to sort of cram as much history as i could in my head and a lot of that was books about japanese american culture but it was also books about agriculture sports immigration race relations books just on los angeles books on japanese american life and it. Was you know books about seattle or fruit or wyoming. I've read so many books about wyoming that i ended up. You know it's it ends up being a paragraph here on paragraph there. But i really wanted to know that personally that i was up to the task of writing this and that i had all this information in my head like i'm sitting right now like i'm looking. There's a book about the geology. Of north west wyoming. Because i knew that. I wanted to talk about that because of how dusty and desolate and rocky this place. That they got dropped was while. I was like okay. Let me read up as much as i can about this geology and it ends up being the opening of one chapter so it ends up probably be like five hundred words here there But it was something that i knew. I wanted to focus on because this was the first thing that these folks saw when they got off the train and wyoming was huge mountains sitting in front of them that was the strangest looking mountain and is one of the strangest geological conundrums in world history. Basically this martin heart mountain is inverted like the rock on the top is older than the rock on the bottom and people have been trying to figure this out for decades as to why this is and it. Just make one of those things where i was like. This is the first thing these people see when they get off the train. I need to murders much as i can about this to sort of understand what they were seeing when they got off the train gifts. How many books did you read fair for this writing. Oh man dozens. I mean probably so i would re dozens of books but then also at the camp there was a weekly newspaper called the heart mountain sentinel and remember when we talk about these campuses that they were huge at its peak heart mountain. Mount camp had almost twelve thousand people. It was the third largest city in wyoming at the time when it was open because wyoming was so lightly populated so it. Had this really great newspaper that serve those twelve thousand people and had a newspaper every week once a week. For the the overriding. Three years of the camp existed. And i read every one of those from front to back so you have this. I've dozens of books. That i read. But then i would also sit there for days and days and just read this weekly newspaper so i got a sense of what the rhythm of camp life was like. Got a sense of. Who's coming who's going. And that was where most of the sport's most of the play by play in the book comes from. Is that this camp. They moved sports and japanese. American life at that point was really revolved around sports. Into a sort of the one thing that had camp that kept the motivated in kept them interested in something that was considered distract them from the fact that they were was a miles from home behind barbed wire so the camp newspaper had a really well-staffed sports section and every week that the team would have a game that would have a preview of the team. That was coming a play by play of the last week's game a column you know. Sort of excoriating. The team for helping Slight mistakes that they've made in the previous week's game and then full box scores from last week's game so that was really helpful in terms of being able to sketch out how all these games went on a play by play basis that i would never been able to do without the fact that this newspaper existed in its title even certainly throughout the entire the book you say. The term incarceration when applies to these japanese-americans in japanese people were taken into these camps throughout the country specifically here in wyoming as you said earlier to that you know historically near classic american history class. We've always heard the term in termine why throughout this. Explain it in the book. I wanted to explain it to the listeners. Why did you use the chairman. Carson nation as opposed to internment yet. It's it's something that even when i first started working on this book i didn't use i used in term and feel like my book proposal. It's internment throughout their. But as i got more and more into research the book and became closer and became friends with a lot of folks in the japanese american community it became clear to me that the term internment was used in hindsight. You know back in the fifties when people start writing more about this period of time are being used to be on composting term as to what happened to Janis americans and they're in their parents in this time and they're sort of a legal argument there that about what internment actually means in terms of whether it's enemy aliens are and things like that but it really does. Is it kind of diminishes what happened to one. Hundred twenty thousand americans and incarceration is still sort of an imperfect term because it implies that there was some sort of wrong that they had been jailed for a wrong. when that's couldn't be further from the truth there was never any. There were never any japanese americans or japanese who were convicted of sabotage or espionage or spying during the war so but the japanese american community really focuses in uses the term. Japanese mark incarceration because it's more accurate terms to what happened People will also notice that the beginning. And i don't use it too much but i also use the term concentration camp. Which was the term use during the thirties and forties to describe these kinds of camps roosevelt described in this concentration camps there described in newspapers across the country while their openness concentration camps and it was only until after the war when the term concentration camp became synonymous with extermination camps in germany and poland and across europe that that term sort of fell out of favor. And i don't mean to. You know at no one in the japanese american community. To this day compares the treatment of of what happened those extermination camps to the camps in the united states. There are certainly some similarities but to the extent of of what happened. No-one no-one claims that but the term concentration camp really is a much more accurate term than an interment camp. So i use it a little bit at the beginning of the book and then mostly just call incarceration or just call them camps bradford. How can readers find this book. You could find it Pretty much everywhere. It's great It's you know we'll buy it on amazon if that's your preferred bookseller. But i know the every barnes and noble in the philadelphia in south jersey area has this. I think at most barnes and noble across the country. It's available which is pretty surreal to say Also know shakespeare. Shakespeare and company has it in rittenhouse and some other booksellers around town. Have it You could also. There's also places that. I wanna shout out that would love for you to buy it from. Which is the japanese american national museum in los angeles and the heart mountain interpretive center in wyoming which is where i did most of my research for this book and they have a great bookstore there and they will ship it to you wherever you are. I know that we've sold out that store a couple of times already. I'd love to give them some awesome. Yeah love brad. Loved the book and for listeners. Out there listening to this. I would definitely recommend it here again. We talked about earlier. You know as in a joking way the way. The is bit of a lull for football fans but just as speaking as someone who obviously loves the football for. If you're just coming from that background it certainly worth a read on the the growth of the game in the united states in the twentieth century but on a much more larger scale. It's an intimate look. Add an element of race relations. That are underplayed in america's history especially when we look at the world war. Two era has america kind of taking over the big bads of the world whereas there were still not terrible things going on with this country itself so with your football fan or just someone who wants to know more about the history of american culture american politics and what people in this country have dealt with for centuries here while worth the pickup while worth a read. Thank jamus loved it. Okay how can they find. You are great listeners. Find you on social media. Keep you updated with this book. Or anything else going on in your world a mostly on twitter and that's at bradford pearson so pretty simple love keep it simple right so on has user aimed at shameless and daily tweet. I've tweeted the person incessantly for like a decade for them to give the name they never will but strive for again. Thank you so much for coming on as your listeners. I'm sure he will have something. In a week later from bgn radio or anyone detailing anything going on with the eagles in carson winston surely next few days or within the next week at the very least. I'll be talking about that but again from the bleachers. I'm your host. James clancy browser appears to come in on the of heart mallon. I will tweet out the link to this when the podcast is published again. Thank you for listening. Go birds g.
Free & Open
"Arm Getty show. It's I barely for getting. For hanging out, I'm very. I'm. I'm a little giddy actually to talk with a guy who. Has the opportunity to oversee so much of what goes on and one of my favorite places in the whole wide world in San, Diego County and Jim Desmond joins US right now. Jim is good on the program. I just I'm just I'm envious of your position because I. Just Love I, Love San, Diego and the county itself so doggone much that I think it's a super great, not only have you on the program, but what what you do. is so meaningful so many people so thank you so much for being on the program. That's enough my brown-nosing all right I have. You had an offer you. I'M GONNA. Keep going longer. Now, keep it up I. Hey Jim I wanted to talk with you about the situation going on Italy San, but around California where we have. Restrictions, being put in place on a number of different businesses, as the virus continues to surge, and in California would we have almost eight thousand new cases yesterday, which is just it's crazy. It's terrifying of course. So I WANNA Kinda. Get your take on what was happening with the businesses closing down and finding a finding a balance between between having a positive productive economy, but also having very positive and healthy society. Well, you know it's a shame that someone's businesses are. Shut down for us. It's ron bars. distilleries and wineries and breweries so technically the restaurants the restaurants can say open. They can serve alcohol, but that the bar is essentially which really closing down the bars are, and the bars can only be open if they serve food and it has to be brought to. Your tables can only have alcohol. It's in a meal setting. You know I think it's kind of an overreach and the fact that you know bars actually when they open them up. They seemed a little risky to me when they first did that, but you know to include wineries. I have not yet seen a video of any you know. Any winery, there's going crazy or gone mad with that hasn't been following and social distancing things like that, but those and the end up the breweries brewpubs essentially were shut down as well so there's. A bit over each one of the things about doing a lot more testing and I know that's not you know a lot of people hearing that we're doing more testing, so we're finding more positive in San Diego County I think throughout the state. Actually you know we've been testing in the single digits. You know as far as positive tests, so ours is about four to five percent every day since we started testing four to five percent range of people testing positive will to me, that says like four percent of your of your population your entire. Entire population has the virus, but very few of them are showing symptoms. We already know by eighty five percent of them shown no symptoms. So what we're doing now is counting. All of those people that have no symptoms are are very little simple because hospitals are hospital rates ticked up, but nowhere near the amount of they haven't kicked up nowhere near the amount of testing. We're doing the double the testing. We were doing a month ago in San Diego County. So what if the rates done then because the testing is important, it has. Somebody needs to seek a test right, so is that like four or five percent of the entire populations, four or five percent of the people who've sought on a test either because they're the because they feel like they may have come in contact with somebody. Maybe just want peace of mind Maybe it's because they feel like, but and they they want to see you know. Know is this. Cole Vidor is something else going on right, so it's not exactly four or five percent of the total population is four or five percent of the people that have taken the test as you so correctly point out testing. Number of tests have gone up. So what is the rate done of positives? Has that remained flat? Is that going up? What's what's not doing? It still fluctuate asks going up for a couple of days I mean we average like? We look at a fourteen day average and we're at four percent right now. I mean. We were three percent a couple. You know a week ago now we're at four percent. It's still single digits testing positive out of a number people taking tests, and about thirty days ago, we start testing anybody that wants to test incentive. Accounting can sign up. Get a test your free, so people with symptoms and without are taking the test now and what show is. Our numbers were showing higher, a numbers of people in their thirties and forties. Testing positive were they were testing positive before premier league because they weren't showing any symptoms, and so are death rate unfortunately has has stayed in the in the you know in the seventy eight. Year old arranged So you were testing a lot more and really protest, you know the viruses read much harder than anybody realizes, but it's. It doesn't show symptoms in the vast majority of people and we're counting them now. But isn't that the point? San. Diego County Supervisor Jim Desma is with us, so the domestic people are being tested. They're being counted, but you also talk about it spreading so much further than than it had before, but isn't that because the ASEM dramatic people are spreading it. Well potentially, but those asymptomatic people were always out there. You know four percent of your population. They were always out there and had it. What's good is that we're casting for finding them and we're getting to isolate, so they don't infect our most popular I'm sorry I'm most most of your most vulnerable. Relation so that's good, but they've always been out there. We just haven't been testing them all or at a at a rate that we've been doing it before that percent has his state steady grew out of those tested, and we've tested close to half a million people in San. Diego County about four, hundred thousand. I think by the way good John. Lennon Cindy. How do a great job getting the tests out there? But when we talk about hospitalizations, going up, that would that would indicate that, if not necessarily just a symptomatic people you've got people who are not only symptomatic, but they're requiring hospitalization, and that number is taking up so it. It seems to me that that doesn't exactly jibe with the assertion that it's just a symptomatic. People were just throwing numbers on a pile. Well No, we're not, and and and that's a good point, because, but we've doubled the test and you've got one hundred percent increase in the testing in the last month. insinuate county art percent increase in testing and hospitalization has gone up in the last in daily update. It was eight percent, so it's nowhere near the court you think then if we're doubling the testing hospital rate would also double not. It's only going up. Ten percent. But wait, wait, wait wait, supervisor Desmond, but but a rate is a percentage, so the fact that it's going up means that it's more than doubling. Right so if if one hundred people take a test, right and four four percent or three percent positive now two hundred people take a test and four percent are positive that means that eight out of the out of the two hundred came back positive, not six as would be steady so when we talk about hospitalization rates going, we can't compare numbers to percentages, so if one hundred people tested and one ends up in the hospital now. Two hundred people get tested. We would expect to end up in the hospital, but what you're saying, it would be like three or four if the rates are going up. The rate is going up from the day before its. Rate of the number tested so to be honest with the. Best out of the four percent of the population. Plumbing one half of one percent are being a out of the population has potential out of the four percent of the population. One half of one percent of those people are going to the hospital and to me that doesn't that doesn't warrant a shutdown of the economy. It's one half of one percent of the four percent of the population that are in the hospital that has picked up a little bit in San Diego County. We're also taking people in the inner hostels from Imperial County were their hospitals they the capacities because they've got the border issue and things like that. We also have people that come straight to Mexico that come to our our hospitals and our hospital. the pass rate has stated about sixty five percents through a good to would get. Help a neighbor. You know help, ensure your county. We're happy to see that but we don't think our businesses ships penalized for I don't think businesses should be penalized for those people counting to our hostile lovers, and we get. We get a handful of day from Imperial County, but it's still had sort numbers, and they need like you said it's good to help to, because they they certainly need help with you know not having a capacity. The San Diego County hospitals have Sitting County Supervisor Jim Desmond. Jim It's been great catching up with the so much wish. We had more time but I love talking to you. Yeah, you bet all right, thank. You couldn't talk to your Jim Desmond near senator, a supervisor talking about what's going on businesses opening businesses closing and of course. San Diego County home of San Diego America's finest city, but is that what the surveys are saying is well. You'll find out where your city ranks in just a moment. It's Chris Marylin for Armstrong and getty. We haven't been fired for taking vacation. Everything's fine will be back on Monday now. Let's see what's going on Merrill. Thanks, again to send county supervisor Jim, Desmond, who has the honor of overseeing what goes on and what I think is one of the finest finest places in all the world, and that is San Diego County, not not just the city of San Diego, but all the surrounding cities as well which has become like an adopted. Hometown for me I, just love it love Lebanon Lebanon. One of the things I was worried about though. And at least reasonable, one of the things gyms worried about is businesses that are really being hit hard by the. Corona virus, not just the virus, but also by. The economic. Impact of states, closing down of course, state of California and and putting more restrictions re implementing some restrictions and the and governor. Gavin newsom saying that. He'll roll back even further if he has to. Roll back even further. Yesterday California saw seventy nine hundred new cases of Corona. So that's not cool, man, smack cool. We're seeing more and more and Dr Anthony. FAUCI says that we could be seeing one hundred thousand cases a day nationwide, and that's scary. That is really scary. so as as we talk with Kind of supervisor there Jim Desmond his his concern is. How do we balance things between the health and safety, and of course businesses staying open, but there's another thing out there. That's actually affecting businesses. Some businesses are closing not because they're being told by the state to close. But frankly just had enough. You're play a Shar. We play cut thirty two there. It's just gotten more difficult to open every day in an environment where you're treated with hostility envenom a mask is not a symbol of anything. Public Health is not political. We're asked to watch our kitchens when we're preparing raw chicken. It's a health rule. It's rule that all kitchens are asked to follow. Its is black and white the hostility. It just doesn't have any place at a TACO stand. TACO stand. TACO standing closed down a TACO stand closing down because people can't be nice so that will you be nice at a Taco stand? So that's him saying that my employees are receiving just harassment in. You aggressive customer behavior. Trying to enforce mass policies. Is that out well? Yeah. So in my daughter is a Barista. which is You know. Frankly, when you're a millennial child being Baristas, you've pretty peaked. Am I right? So my daughter is a Barista. She is a beautiful. twenty one year old girl. Twenty two year old girl after give the straight. She's twenty two now. So she's beautiful. She's Barista in in the B. C. K.. And I say that because I'm trying to sound hip, but she's a Barista in Long Beach and so she's. She's totally downtrodden the other day. And look twenty two year old single female. Sometimes she's downtrodden and just the way it is sometimes sometimes. There's a reason sometimes. They're not in this case. She little down. Why are you down? She didn't WanNa talk about it? She. Had to deal with so many customers that were being belligerent about wearing masks Chardonnay quit. Hand she could stand it. She says he's people are nuts and and she used to tell me about this. You know we're talking about San Diego. And my daughter worked at a a coffee shop and it's Anita's and. Show I. Remember when she she's talking about people bring their dogs in here. All the time and I tried to tell him not to do that. And they start screaming at me and my manager told me to stop. Stop bothering with it. I was like wait a minute people bringing pets into food establishment, and you're not saying anything like now because they just get belligerent than they claim, it's a service animal, and then I get in trouble for even asking. What. What is wrong with you people? What is wrong? Why are you treating other people in such a manner I don't this is where I'm just baffled by the behavior. These are these are the Karen today. People these are the kids that are just screaming because then want to wear a mask, right? Just. It's trader. Joe's Lady, you know the joke used to be man. This is a Wendy's drive-thru. We're at the point. WHERE THE JOKE! Is Not even as far fetched as as it used to be right, Sean. It used to be like a man. This is a winds through. GOING, crazy? They're actually going bonkers at Trent like man trader Joe's No, it really is a trader Joe's at that lady was going going bonkers in. This is the deal with my daughter. The BARISTA again. Fancy so she's. She's like I'm I'm so stressed out like I i. You know I don't even know what's going with with school. This fall and I'm totally stressed out when I go to work I'm just lucky to have a job, but that job is super stressful because people are just able speaking of school. What is there any way? positive Sean. Is there any way sports leagues and these conferences can can. Can Get going here Mike. Don't see it. Happening Mike Current if. If if I'm placing bets, current bet, is that league start up, but they don't finish which might be kind of a worst case scenario and and a lot of different ways, but I feel like the specifically NBA. I feel like they're going to start up towards the end of this month. but I'm becoming more and more skeptical about how likely they're actually gonNA conclude the season as they as they want to. WHAT'S THE NBA deal? The NBA supposed to play eight games and then yes. Play many eight-game sprint, finish off the regular season to kind of finish off the the seating right, who's going to be the top seed in WHO's GonNa? Play their way into the playoffs and commented a bunch of TV contracts along the way that's the underlying cause I think of it is. They're trying their contractual obligations to regional sports networks I'm but then the the and then the Games will resume at the end of this month, so teams are now currently kind of congregating with their players in their cities, doing daily testing, trying to create the the bubble of when they all go to Disneyworld and play the all the Games there. Okay and you think they're gonNA. They're gonNA play. The Games would have to stop in the middle of the playoffs I. Don't know how long they're gonNa get, but I feel like. Somebody's GONNA. Get it and it depends on how they can catch in contain right if they're if they're social distancing and contract, tracing is as good as they think it is that maybe they'll be able to isolate it and not have it have it spread, but it's just. It just seems like an impossible thing to try to contain I see Dandridge, Jordan and Spencer Dinwiddie didn't. How do you say his name Dinwiddie For the nets tested positive nuggets have shut down their practice facility after positive coronavirus tests, so we're. We're already starting to see NBA players testing positive I i. just don't know how you can get out there with guys. You know sweat flying around back and forth. That is going to end up in somebody else's knows. I. Don't see happening I just don't see it happening. That's even if they get through the practices. All right best city in America play which wanted days next. Chris Maryland for during again. Armstrong and getty show. Chris rarely strong and Getty Broadcasting Live the home studio at the end of dirt road on the end of it road. positive sean with as well and Hey, positive, Sean, you like. You're talking about the best the best. You like really highlight and tell people what's what's Great. Oh, yeah, where they are right ranking bests like I'm all I'm all about Click Bait conversations. I think that's excellent all right so lists are great for Click Bait the terrible for radio, but we're going to do it anyway so. Guy Who was? A friend told me one time. He's like it was a consultant. He says you know. Lists are at best see material meaning that you know abcd easing lists best seeing material. That person sounds like an idiot. About more lists people lists. So I have no idea what to think. So find the best in the worst cities in murky now as I mentioned, we talk Jim Desmond. Who was a county supervisor in San, Diego I think. Julian California is one of the best cities in America. I've said this before. I'll say it again. I love. Julia, California. Okay! Let me throw that out. There love it. Love it. Love it. So that said. who's who's got this old is another wallet hobbies that the deal here? Yeah, yeah, okay wallet hub as we know, we can trust wallet hub with all things ranking related. All right. So, what are we GONNA? Do here? We're GONNA the the top of the worst ten. Let's start with the top ten of the top ten seems far more exciting than the worst. excuse me. The worst seems like nobody wants to be the worst. Of the top ten cities in America starting at number, you have these frigging. Do I know I. Can I'm GonNa? have to pull this out of my, but Oh, my goodness! It's all falling apart. Lord. Holy Cow. Unbelievable I, I'm the Lincoln the very okay I. got it I. got it all right, listen you just be Paul. Shaffer I'll do the top ten list all right. All right. All right topped cities in America here we. Go number ten Nashua. New Hampshire. I think they make duct tape in Nashua New Hampshire. Virginia Beach Virginia. Fort Wayne Indiana Missoula Montana Lexington Fayette Kentucky. Durum North Carolina. Home of the Durham Bulls. LAS CRUCES IN NEW MEXICO PROVO Utah Number three number two finest city America. Boise Idaho by. Boise. Boise and number one. God. Shouldn't even count it. Shouldn't even count. I'm going to call foul on this one. NAMPA IDAHO. Like twenty miles outside of Boise Idaho. It's a suburb almost not quite kinda. You can't have it doesn't count. You feel like they should just count as one. Of Metro area, yes. Or even just Idaho General, just Idaho's great state. You get number one none. What Right. Not only that but a little bit confused about the criteria on this. I'm I'm lost on the hell out here. So they've got So. They have one of the criterion using his total budget per capita. Efficiency to go with that right right, and then the the quality of city services now that seems kind of a broad generic term on I would like to see what data find his city services, and how they figure out if it's good or not Cost. Efficiency of those services aren't necessarily acquainted in here, but if all I guess total budget per capita would kind of fall in line with the quality of services. Too Expensive. Hey, wallet hub. I feel like somebody at wallet hub grew up in Nampa Idaho and just wanted Nampa Idaho to for instance. NAMPA comes in on. Wallet HUB SURVEY OF CITIES In America number one for total budget per capita, K., but the committed number seventy four for quality of city services. Boise comes in at number two per capita, and at number five for city services, so they're they're number. Yeah, their top five in two different categories, Provo Utah third for total budget and fourth for quality of city services so again two top five finishes, the two big categories yet NAMPA. Is considered the best run city in America. I'm calling shenanigans. I think takeover there, Wa. Thank you. Who's WHO's wallet is a little bit thicker over their wallet. That's what I WANNA know. It's probably the guy from NAMPA. Dude for Mantha. IOS number one for quality of services. This one's sprays me number one quality of services you know this is. Huntington Beach California. Really number one for cities, and with the amount of money that gets paid in taxes I would think that the the top cities for quality of services should all be out of California. But. They're not. They're not In fact, it's Huntington. Beach is number one in Fremont California's number six. Okay, now more importantly. Here we go. This is what people are more interested in. CRAPPIEST cities in America. Who are you again? You're? GonNa Carl Right CRAPPIEST cities in America. Really moving up the list and very happy to be considered the tenth Borst City in America Flint Michigan Flint Michigan again congratulations flint. Evidently killing people with your water isn't enough to make you the worst city in America, so who is worse, then Flint taking in? Per capita and quality of city services Chicago is the ninth. The worst city in America come hidden. Evidence, supporting that claim, thank you coming in at number eight Oh. It's where flint gets their water Detroit Michigan. Relations. DETROIT! You're actually worse than flint is like. It landed on you. Let's see Oakland California oak has got a bad rap and has for a long time to Hartford Connecticut. Did you expect to see yeah Stepford city as one of the worst run cities in America? New York new. Chattanooga Tennessee another one. I didn't expect to see on the list Gulfport Mississippi. And they not only have very little spending very little budget per capita. They also do a terrible job in their quality services. Does Gulfport here. We go number two worst run sitting America. Sin Francisco California there we go, shout out bay area, so bay area pulls two of the worst run cities in America with Oakland and San Francisco that's like the the the Boise of the of the bottom list. Thank you, you know what that's a great point and the number one worst run city in America should come as no surprise. It's swear we for all cities for an example. Washington D. C.. America that's where everybody that runs the rest of the country lives. That's fantastic as they. You know what was also interesting way to lead by example these yet good job gang you know who was born in New York New York. Carl Reiner was from New York and he moved. He moved to Beverly Hills where he doesn't care about the the the quality services. He only cares that he was paying an awful lot of money. Living there in beverly, Hills Carl Reiner yesterday. He passed right Yeah I. Believe it may have technically been the previous evening, but The news broke of it yesterday and I jump on twitter very briefly to see that and I said I. Don't know if I can handle this. He was such a huge comedic influence on me. Growing up specifically the two thousand year old man stuff I would listen to on hours on end and was. Fascinated and riveted, and was you know asking? Wait these that you can make a career just being funny. Really. That's the thing I was going to our. Four o'clock this morning. Right and I was looking at I was looking at stuff, and I was sent. Carl Reiner posts from I. Guess It would have been twenty nine, so it would have been a day before, so yeah leads twenty. He was posting on twitter. Right up until Monday Morning Base. He was he was twitter active. I guess. Hey Do you have one of those bids for the two thousand. Oh, yeah oh man. CATTLEMAN is one of the phenomenon of the world is two thousand years old Brooks is going to be the other guy right. Yes, yes, and it's important to note that when you hear clips of these. Mel Brooks gets all the laughs right. He's the he's the guy who delivers the punch lines and gets it Carl. Reiner was unmatched as a setup man, as as the the quote, unquote the straight guy of the comedy duo, and when you listen to these full I, mean sometimes they i. mean they were just like our long of these kinds of Improv off the top conversations, yeah, the way that he would guide it and we've it in. is nothing short of masterful here? Here's here's the conclusion of this you. Know. The Mayo Clinic has check you out and said that two thousand. And the origin of words, for instance, a simple word like cheese, that is a lovely story how we get the white cheese and vernacular. In Year Twenty eight Dash. There was an old. And he gentleman came to his land and said I'm so thirsty. May I have a little dipper milk? And he says certainly go over to the barrel. He not knowing that the barrel of milk had soured. Say so this poor beggar man to barrel and opened up the. And looked in and look down event chase. Were she came into the. Industry True? Yes Are. From from great news as we remember the life of Carl. Reiner, to were probably all going to die I'M GONNA? Say this time next Monday, ISH! We'll tell you why it is next. Chris Maryland for Armstrong and Getty. The Armstrong and getty show. Chris merrily in for Armstrong and getty guys. It'd be knackers week. Show as we get ready. Wrap up here kind of a fun fun story. Is there anything more fun than hearing about somebody getting Gored I. Don't think there's anything. What the Hell is wrong with you, but Was Sean. You're just like. Hey, here's a fun story, so woman being gored. In. A classic of. A person's visit sick person visits. Yellowstone isn't aware that the actual buffalo are not like the anthem moats the word and through. What they are tunes. Fiqh but I like it. Keep going. No, no, no, you never but yeah, the these are actual beasts who don't really care for the fact that you might be trying to get a selfie. That's what it was. This was was. A last week I guess Thursday I guess story just broke them. I if I'd woman sustained multiple goring wounds before being flown to an Idaho Hospital. That occurred to the national. Park, service! Wearing that Idaho Greta? Services and stuff everything. Yes, other. She's taking very good care of their took up the NAPA. NAMPA Idaho Best City in America according to Wallethub very good. Let's see she She was at Bridge Bay. Campground North West Wyoming on the northwestern side of Yellowstone Lake when she approached within ten feet of a bison. Multiple Times to take its photo according to the Park Service Park. Visitors are asked to stay at least twenty five yards away from Bison Elk Moose and other large aminals, so she got within ten feet of the him and. Socially distancing rise the horns. Thank you like lady. You don't even have a mask on. You can't get near me. Probably have something Weirdo. Why don't you have a mask on? I am not a sex slave that wears mass, but I'm a Buffalo I don't care I am not into say masochism and Bondage Comma Buffalo. And what does that have to do with anything? Weirdo Lady. Solidify, Gord and you know this is Karen Right. She's all. Alone. The. Buffalo is so excited about this. Fun Fact Kids. Are Gluten. Free we have, them Wonderful Children, but then of course by Gore's her and she gets really upset about it. Ask. Bisons better. That was actually heard just before the, but just before the Bison Goner. By was trying to tell her to leave. She's like go away lady. That was her being Gordon right there. That, was it. And that's bad enough. News out of Washington. And And the Director of the National Institute of we'RE ALL GONNA. Die For those of you just joining us. We are all going to die yet. Bad News Friends Dr Doughty. The time has come. Bow is warning us of not corona virus. By. A NEW VIRUS! I added strain of flu carry by pigs in China characteristics of the two thousand nine H, one N, one virus and the nineteen eighteen pandemic flu. Here, that so, it's like a swine flu. That's got the characteristics of the Avian Bird, flu and also the nine hundred eighteen Spanish flu. Is. Throw that in a top of the corona virus, and we're S- crowd. Doctor FAUCI. Phil. Are you ready for? This is going to be extra confusing. Not only are we dealing with the covid nineteen, which is all kinds of confusing H, one N, one, thousand, nine hundred nineteen pandemic. Are you ready for what they're calling? This new super viruses going to kill us all forget murder Hornets, your wish. You'd been in contact with the murder Hornet when all is done. The G. for A. H, one N one. Now it. It hasn't yet to be shown to infect humans, but it is exhibiting reassortment capabilities that according to. Testimony that she gave to the Senate yesterday. So the G Four E A H One n one. Folks lot of people have been asking a lot of people. Don't even know this. They say Kobe nineteen. What the Nineteenth Stanford doesn't make any sense now. We've got G FOR A H. One N One g four I think that's a summit. EA! They make all the great video games like Madden love. Them H one. N One. Elemental P.. One Nobody really knows what any of that is all about. Totally confusing. I don't even believe it's happening. So. That's GONNA to kill us all before we can get a vaccine. Incidentally good news there are some promising results Pfizer, showing some promising results promising that their stock is go way up anyway. They ran a trial evaluated forty-five people. They got two doses of either the vaccine or placebo. Sexy was generally well tolerated. Though the experimental vaccine could cause fever in some patients, especially for those who were in the one hundred microgram group that was the highest message that the gave people so Pfizer Pfizer went up bigly. In the stock market here yesterday because they've been working on this coronavirus. Vaccination, I was reading. Back Pfizer stock rises for more than four hours. Call your doctor. Hi! Oh well done. Okay what FIS hang on? Kennedy's Bhai like Johnson and Johnson or Pfizer or somebody who's going to make an announcement, my stock bumps I sell. Right isn't that basically market manipulation? Careful. Went to jail for that, didn't she? Right, this is why any time I see. Jim Cramer talking about things on TV I'm like hey, that's a really great idea. Wait a minute, Kramar. Is this a bump and dump. Is that what the plan is here? Or a pump and dump I guess Senator is this. Is this a pump end up? I always have to be really careful about that. And the thing is that even if they have a great? Early on trial results, it doesn't mean necessarily something great. He's GonNa come of this. I was looking at some previous vaccinations including what they call the Fort Dix strain. Okay, we've got the G for E A. H One n, one and now Fort Dix. Somebody's joshing me totally Johnson. Totally Johnson me. Fort Dix strain of the flu back in the Nineteen Seventies. and. It was freaking people that came up with the vaccination while the vaccination of doing a heck of a lot of harm. Twenty people died from the vaccination of the hastily developed. flu vaccine from Nineteen, seventy six, and specifically for the Fort. Dix Variation, I. It's why they gotta take a little easy before they start cranking this thing out then. Nobody wanted to get back so needed. Then what happens? Virus spreads get back in. We're all screwed. Why say we're probably all GONNA die? It's a pleasure. It's been real. It's been fun. Appreciate you will allow me the chance to invade your ears for a few hours this morning? Have, a good one look forward to talking to you again Armstrong and getty back next week Chris Merrill into the game.
I'm Torn Between Two Career Paths (Hour 3)
"Live from the headquarters of ramsey solutions broadcasting from the dollar car rental studio. This is the dave ramsey show where america hangs out to have a conversation about your life. Your work your money. i'm dr john. Baloney joined here with ramsey personality bestselling author ken coleman. We're taking your calls about your relationships your purpose your work all given. How are we doing. I am living the dream as i like to say on. The ken coleman show and our audience can live that dream to. How is your family preparing for the holidays. Oh my gosh well in a lesson. I've got a fifteen year old to twelve year old so i don't know that they're preparing at all. They just they live the good life. You know they just. They are in the seat of blessing john. Stacey stacey nine other hand we still have some work to do. I'll be honest. we're a little bit. You know where those those threes the high is if you're a disc person and and so we work to do a little bit orbiter so this morning but as the effort as long as come in under the wire so i've got a five year old and a in an almost five-year-old ten year old and they're getting ready for the last day of school. Yeah today mine to my son told my daughter. Hey this is it. Then comes christmas break to he replied like the last few months right where we've been at home and at school at home and i got me thinking. Christmas breaks can look totally different for these for millions of kids across the country. It's going to look just like last week and the week before the week before we've been blessed you know at least certainly in our neck of the woods farkas to go to school. It's it's tragic when you see the loneliness that And this is not a is not a comment on on your state's governor or wherever political affiliation you draw from but the fact of the matter is is that the isolation and the shutdowns and the quarantines Whether you again believe they should have happened or not. It has been devastating on our kids. children Because we are all relational but they don't have the maturity. They don't have a lot of the tools that adults have and it's been tough on adults. I mean just going to say they don't have access to the devices. Medicine contend to rely on. So it's it's been tough. But i'm hoping that Twenty twenty one is Is going to be a much better year for goodness sakes just just relationship in the world just needs to take a deep breath and literally and figuratively right and start healing all right. Let's go to cameron in columbia south carolina cameron. How are we doing to me. I'm sorry cameron to keep them on their cameron from columbia south carolina. Yeah that's me okay. that's you sorry. go for it. yes so. I'm just kind of torn between two career pass away. One of them is more something with my heart. The other one is more logical. But i could also have a connection to so i plan is to eventually become like an outdoor recreation planner for or or an hiv which stands for off highway vehicle program supervisor for like a federal agency and then and or would be like an outdoor tour guide year round. But all this stuff starts seasonally. Which i have not quite gotten to get it could be five years before i find a more permanent role. Okay and it's just going to be in a lot of these jobs you know. They're lower paying the seasonal. They don't really have any benefits than the other route would be to go to houston schooling for industrial mechanical maintenance and then i would build into a maintenance role for a park or forest. I could do that route interesting. More stable one. Yeah and that's that's what you were referring to as the combo where you're you you've got a little bit better. Pay better pat. But you get ready. Yeah but you're in proximity that park and you're kind around all that fun outdoor stuff right. Yeah so i would do the schooling here in south carolina. I'm already about to pull the trigger. I mean i've got half the money on not to pay as i go and i'm gonna move to the mountain west. Get involved that volunteer for year. I would do a regular job with the schooling right for a year and a half to two years and then after that two years i'm going to find a temporary role and then i'll just do that and then i'll wait so prominent role comes up. I'll just kind of wanting your opinion as far as like. does that. Sound like a better idea. Other than all the sneezing all stuff which is just going to be a lower coaster. 'cause it is yeah. I think that it is a good idea because you can hear the confidence in in that plan. I think he fought this thing out really well in fact a lot of people that call. I've been on ten months. I used to live in north west wyoming. I went to asia yet. And let me tell you something. It's a good plan. I want you to do it. I just want to add one encouragement. I think you work your tail off. You get that industrial mechanical maintenance job. And i'm gonna come back around in a second but i want you to work your tail off on that and put the money away and save save. Save till you get to a point where you can make that full-time jump into that work and you've got a buffer and get your lifestyle to a point where you can see a path forward where you can get in and then climb up but financially you've prepared for this And the only thing i would say to you is i would double triple check whether or not you need to go to school to get into industrial. You know that mechanical if it is engineering yes you will But if it's maintenance work i would just double check that and see if there's trade schools and things for that kind of work because you might be surprised for a guy who likes mechanical side of things. The trades can pay very very well. And you get trained so much faster so i would just encourage you to a little bit more research because you seem like you've done a lot of research that's right and yeah so cameron. What is it about the outdoors. And she love. What is all. I've always liked thereby have yet to have my own vehicle and i just. I love dirt biking hiking just i. Two hundred miles out in yellowstone and grand teton parks all that. So it's just. I have an idea and then building maintaining fixing things out in that world. That's that's what i care about. You know what i would do. Do listen to me. I want you to really go do some more homework on. Just mechanical work can make really good money mechanic and you like fixing things anyway and. I think you might do a little combination of this dream. We've been talking about this plan where maybe eventually you own your own vehicles and off road god business while you're going to have my own listen to me. Hold on my own tour guide. Hey you're going to. You're gonna take this plan and that's what you're going to go do. You're going to get out there and learn the area learn. Maybe work part time while you're making great money as a mechanic maybe work part time on the weekends or that volunteering for somebody. Who's doing it well. And and there's a local perfect area so you are becoming a master's degree student on that type of work and what's happening is is that you are gonna learn the process of how to run your own business by watching somebody else do it. And then you're gonna use that mechanical work to just stack up money john. Eventually he's going to start that side-hustle at side-hustle will grow and he'll step from the day job right into the dream job. That's the path. I love it. This is the dave ramsey. Show off Everyone wants to keep their home and family safe whether it's from a break in a fire flooding or a medical emergency simply safe security delivers award. Winning twenty four seven protection was simply safe. You don't just get an arsenal of cameras and sensors. You get the best professional monitors in the business now. Visit simplisafe direct dot com and get a free security camera plus a sixty day risk free trial with any new system order. This is the dave ramsey show. Hey good folks. If you're still looking for christmas deals you can pick up our life. Changing books and kids products for up to eighty eight percent off during the green monday sale which is ending on sunday in. This sale includes ken coleman bestselling audiobook the proximity principle. Can you're going to have to raise a stink about this for three bucks know. My kids aren't to eat this this winter. But that's okay a good deal for me to roof for three bucks. You can also pick up my redefining anxiety for ten bucks. At least we're gonna eat right between elections holidays. Gifting and family anxiety can easily take over you your household your neighbors. Everybody i know feels like but that does not have to define you when you read redefining anxiety you'll learn. What anxiety is what. It's not in how to get your life back. The best part is you'll learn practical steps to take today and long-term strategies for healing and moving forward dude. This quick read have been selling like crazy. I'm just so humble to be able to share my research and knowledge with you so visit the online store at daveramsey dot com backslash store to get redefining anxiety for ten bucks cayennes proximity principle proven plan. That will lead to audio media. Love come on you get to listen to me. Read it to you and my pleasant. Baritone it is listen to that. It is a pleasant baritone three bucks. You can change your life for thirteen dollars joe. Daveramsey dot com backslash store. All right let's go to hunter and johnson city tennessee hunter. You're on the dave ramsey. Show how can we help. Hey great question. Thanks for having me on Gonna get an interesting situation Really just looking for maybe some by for myself and my wife are also Maybe some hope and encouragement from my mother who's going through a divorce currently I'm twenty six. Got three kids of my own Both under two. And i've got some siblings My mom has two younger children. One nine and the other is six and going through a divorce. So she's actually studying In our place criminally area That we've kind of stood up for them to stay She has no income Has no access any funds At least my current I don foreseeable future. Not sure how long this process is gonna take Going through a lot of heartache just it's gonna be a struggle. I think and Honestly you all have been huge Just changing our family tree and we want to be able to help her as much as possible. I don't know what healthy don't know what's right but then also for her. You know just trying to figure out what. How can we help. Encourage her to move forward. Show any advice Just kind of wanted to bernie. Soon you don't have to say. I think first and foremost hunter. I want to recognize you as a bold thoughtful mature twenty six year old. And aaj wanna tell you honor you man. I'm grateful for you i. It takes somebody a lot of courage to invite their mom back home. Let me ask you a couple of questions here So you say that. Your mom's got a couple of other kids. I'm assuming that you. Your mom is not divorcing your birth fathers at right okay. So she is living at your house and she's got two little ones with their two. How old are they They're nine and six nine and six hundred ninety nine and six or seven. Okay why does she not have access to money Difficult situation at home Was staying home with kids actually home school. I don part of the multitude of reasons. I guess that the divorce is is coming about is just no no trust. And i guess he didn't trust her and just very controlling. I think Never never really gave her access to even checking it out ok. Does she have a good lawyer. Who's going to war for her and it was two little kids Yeah i i don't know how good the lawyer is. It's currently so. I guess there's a free attorney that's offered I don't know about that. Might be a good thing for us explore. I want you to I want you to explore that as soon as humanly possible. There are lawyers. That will work on contingency. They get paid if they win. And they get paid a percentage of those winnings and there are also really remarkable lawyers to step in situations like this of worked with them. I've trained them. I love them and they look for places for moments of injustice and they step in and they just love getting their hands. Dirty situations like this. What kind of a financial burden is she going to be if she if she's unable to work and issue able to work I i think we're still trying to determine that I think she she had low self sustainment result of everything. That's going on but so that that's something that we want to kinda help. A graph so he Before before that she could be hundred before the low self esteem before all that. Here's what here's what you need to do. You and your wife have to get off site for a minute whether that's dinner or breakfast or lunch and you'll have to come up with your boundaries immediately and what i mean by. That is how long she can stay. Are y'all gonna contribute financially. Are they going to continue to stay with right. Come up with those boundaries. Y'all feel good about it. You think about it you pray about it you write them down and those become ironclad. Okay right. I want to throw this in here. John and john you speak to this. Yes about hundred. I think you've gotta set her up a bank account. I think if we can take care of those kids. I know she's hurting. But i i think her stewing in your house and all this uncertainty and all this to the extent that you could a mom. You taught me how to do this. I'm going to do this for you. We're going to set you up a checking account savings account if you guys can put some money in it. Or they're her church. People want to jump in on this and get her started. I would try to find her job really really soon. I think it will help. Distract her right to this. Okay good. she's got low slowly. She struggling one hundred. She's gonna eat. Yeah that'll make her feel a little bit. yeah right. we're about to hit christmas break. She needs to go to work she has to. I wish there was another alternative. You're twenty six. Yeah she's got to go to work. And ken is right. Less for distraction. But she's going to have to start learning after years of being at home how to put her feet underneath ago. Luckily she has a son who loves her who's mature and who's wise and who's giving who's going to be there to help cushion that fall but she'll agree this and quite honestly you're gonna grieve this. This is your mom. Nobody wants to see their mom. Hurt that sucks. And you've got to have space for you to greet to go get a child. She's got to get a job. Yeah that hard conversation. I love kids advice. You're gonna take you're going to set up a bank account for and maybe you and your wife decide we're gonna put in that account and that's that that's what we can afford to do right now. You're not gonna borrow money for this situation. You're not going to bankrupt your family for this situation. She can stay with you thrill through march whatever and then you call a lawyer. That's gonna go to battle not somebody. That's just going to sit in line and wait for a divorce. Divorces are divorced. You're going to call someone and say i've got a mom who's got two little kids and a husband who's decided those two kids aren't worth eating. Those two kids aren't worth rent and there are lawyers. Who will stand in line for that type of battle. Yes i wanna say john. I want you to address it. Because i'm i'm somewhat ignorant but i've seen enough of it to bring this up. The reason that i'm driving this issue came in that you've got to get mom feeling confidence possible that. Hey we're going to chart a new future. I'm going to help you guide you. You know you gotta get involved with our ramsey plus. Whatever you gotta do Because i know the lawyer will go to battle and all that stuff john. But we've got a friend who just went through a rough divorce and new both and fact is he's behind four months on payments and i know the judge will get in there said but sometimes this is not a perfect process and you cannot rely on a great lawyer or not and child support and alimony and all that stuff. I just if you get that great but my advice advices let the lawyer tears hide. But you don't rely on whatever the lawyer gets she needs to become self sustaining and very independent and have financial peace and start over. Do not rely anything that he gives her from. What the judge says is gravy. That's my point. And i fully agree with that ken in hundred. That's why it's important for you guys. Union wife to sit down and have the boundaries conversation. I because when you lay out those boundaries to your mom. And i'm telling you right now. It's going to be a hard conversation but when you lay out those boundaries. She's gonna lean up against him to see if they're going to hold you're going to hold them and then she's gonna have to get a job. She's going to have to get her own account. She's gonna have to figure how those kids are gonna eat. She's got a fight for her and her new few there you go she. You've got a hold her up until she's ready to go to war Take your your kids gentlemen. This is the dave ramsey show. This is the dave ramsey show. I'm john baloney joined by ken. Coleman quick point of clarification. Earlier i told folks to go get a will and i sent them to the wrong web address. You met well. I tried your heart was in the right place. The internet's again cousin. Nettie christmas vacation know. Clark looks at him. It says please forgive my cousin. His hearts bigger than his brain. You know what that's right. A walking labrador more like a basset hound. Go to a mom. Oh mama bear. Legal forms dot com. That's mama bear legal forms dot com to get a will. It's a great christmas present. Nothing says merry christmas. Hey one day. I'm not going to be here. You're going to be taken care of. It's better than the jelly of the month club. That's as i keep the national lampoon. Chris vacation references going. I'm going to see if i can keep them going into malls child's throughout the entire rest of the program all right. We're going to go to somebody who i accidentally hung up on earlier. We're going to go to the original. Og cameron in lansing michigan cameron. How are we doing. I'm doing great. How are you guys. Good please forgive me for hanging up on you earlier. no no. that's all right. He's new to this camera and buttons. Yeah it's This is like putting him in the cockpit of a seven forty seven. He doesn't know what to do. How can we help them. All right so. I got a question for you guys about A business oh my I didn't know what i wanted to do. I graduated from high school this year at the beginning of this year. All right And i didn't know what i wanted to do. I thought engineering. Because i like the by an and the mathematics and stuff So i tried community college But with the online stuff. Like i immediately just hated it and didn't do it so kind of just dropped out like right away And then i discovered fish keeping Like aquarium keeping as a hobby. And i think that. I like i just fell in love with. I've been wanting to do it for a while. But i just got into. It just goes you know why not now. And so i I've been researching how to turn into a business From a really really Well off person who who has done it. And he puts out videos kind of explained it But they explained that if he explained that you can go one of two ways you can be a breeder and like sell the fish that you breed to other stores or you can start your own store. And so i'm kinda like debating between both ways and the reason is is i would love to be a breeder but there's no one around here that i would like my product to be associated with either due to Malls i basically have two options around here. Sell the fish to and one of them their morals don't align with mine and the other i feel has a terrible terrible business model so I like in the next closest. One is like an hour plus away. So there's that who helped me understand who you selling him to the if you breed these fish who are the buyers local fish stores so like like Not not like petsmart big box chain store kind deal but like Like someone like you know that just as like a mom and pop shop fish. Okay gotcha Well so here's the conundrum with the way you set this up you get one of two options and there's only one option that you're really interested in and it also could be wrong. Correct me but it feels like option one where you become the readers a lot less upfront capital and and and if you're starting to store that's brick and mortar and that's really seen renting because you're not gonna go into debt and so the whole lot of upfront cost is more risk in my right. Yeah okay so really. We have to fix this problem by going. There's gotta be a solution here and the to local people. Let's dive in a little bit more Aren't the one people the one group of of the people that run a fish store. You just think they're unethical bad people and so you don't want to be aligned with them. Bravo good you no problem with that but i do have a problem with you not wanting to work with the other local store because they're not bad people you just don't like their business model but what are you care about your business. Do they buy fish from people. Yes or no yes. Are you a potential business partner in that they could buy fish from you Yeah would it be good or bad if they bought fish from you. It'd be good all right then. So don't get all high and mighty and i know you're not but the point is don't overlook an opportunity right there and then i would branch out. You're a young guy you can. You can drive if you gotta start building that business out and driving our find two other stores. I say you try it because you're young. You're really into it. And if he got to work a day job to to support yourself or to help fund this business i say. There's no time like the present in this situation because it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of startup cost. Is that right. That's right. Yeah everything i need right now to start up like already got it all. Let me ask you another question. That may be really silly. But i don't mind asking it all right twenty twenty. Can't we ship some fish to You could but i mean bullish is a first of all are you. Are you outside. Walked in the dogs. What's happening right now. I can't even tell you straight sorry about that. I just walked outside. Yeah no you try to stay still and and maybe not in a wind tunnel for a few more minutes so as better for you much better. So why couldn't you ship. Don't tell me all the reasons why you can't tell me. Can you ship fish. If you start you know bring some really cool stuff. You got some people and you beat their price. Amazon ships everything. Why can't you ship fish. I dunno it's expensive all right so i'm just saying look into it. I'm not saying you gotta do it. I'm saying get outside of this. I'm limited ken to one person who will buy fish from me. I don't think you are if you gotta drive an hour. Drive an hour and a half. You're young i do at john. Anything say that it reminds me kin of a guy that i bought meat from in texas. I keep only like where this is. We buy a quarter a beef for half of a beef and feed me my family for a year. He's about an hour and a half away. He would drive to a parking lot in our community and he'd citizen emails and i'm here. I'm going to be here tomorrow at this time. Come to find out. He launched his business in two thousand eight thousand nine the worst time to launch a business in the last couple of decades right. He ended up on the regular on a regular basis driving. These is product to houston which is about an eleven hour drive. Wow and win. The hurricane hit he was connected with them. He showed up and he showed up in those people continue to support him this day. His commute has gotten smaller as the word out about his business. He doesn't have to drive eleven hours anymore now. He's driving an hour or two hours. Aaron are here but he takes care of the region but ought to say is to get going hit. Put the miles in right. He was only one serving this particular type of beef in this particular market. And he had to get paid man so we hit the road but that started with a can do attitude not a well limitation limitation limitation limitation. Yeah one of the things. I did not add in here camera. I got an idea while john was talking. Is that You don't have to ship fish. That's probably not not very cost effective model as you identified. So i pivoted. I went all right. Who says that. You can't sell fish directly to people in lansing. They don't have to go to the mom and pop fish. Or if you've got i'll deliver my out deliver your fish dot com junior house. Please don't go to their website. I don't know if it exists. My point is you can sell this online. And you can deliver the fish right. I've got tropical fish. I've got exotic fish of tropical fish. There it is the eats of central michigan fish delivery. We just created a business online right now breed the fish get on facebook. All the socials all this. You could advertise for pennies and start delivering fish directly. Take on the mom and pops. I don't mind that that doesn't make bad person. Get out there and deliver fish. And i'm just thinking i've never heard of a fish. Delivery business pet fish delivery business. And then i thought i had never heard of. Why go to blockbuster. I'll just mail you the movies to your house and that was a crazy idea to. Here's the deal you want. You want some cool confession that aquarium and you don't want to go out and mess with the traffic cameras going to drop off some cool new fishy. This raised at one half the price it would cost in a box store Cameron you've got work to do. Buddy go right now. Scripture today is from ecclesiastical eleven six in the morning so you're seed an evening withhold not your hand for you do not know which will prosper this or that or whether both alike will be good. Dale carnegie says develop success from failures. Discouragement and failure are two of the surest stepping stones to success. I can concur. Hey big announcement. John get the out real quick before we head back to the phones ramsey solutions were working on a special podcast. And we're looking for stories from you so if you've ever had a bad experience with a buy now pay later plan. That promises flexible payment options. We want to hear from you. You've probably seen these options when you're buying a present online or when you're in the checkout line by a pair of jeans got caught in one of these installment payment programs and it ended up costing you a whole lot more than you expected. We'd love to share your story. Maybe a horror story about using an online tax software. You thought you were saving money. But there are all kinds of hidden fees or maybe like millions of americans. You didn't have an emergency fund in two thousand twenty and it really hurts you or you've had trouble keeping your new year's goals during this dumpster fire a year. It's like the market got a little angry. Got worse and worse and worse dumpster of year. That's funny and if you hate everybody james we should get some Spiked eggnog to vermont. Wrote these talking points but anyway if any of those scenarios fits you. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at dave on air at ramsey solutions dot com. That's dave on air at ramsey. Solutions dot com. All right let's go to ellen in san antonio texas. Hey ellen how's it going maybe there. I'm so excited to be talking to the both of you. I need your expertise on the issue on. How can we help well. So okay so this is an issue. That's a really huge source of conflict in my marriage so so my husband. We've been married for thirteen years and my husband has been in the same job position for the last twelve years and that position hasn't had any change in pay or any change in the responsibilities or skills but he's been doing for the same job so i believe in him and i want him to reach for more but he really does not believe in themselves and so this issue has become so contentious and him kind of looking for a new position that He really won't talk to me about it. There's all just kind of become a shutdown and so I just i. Could you need your advice on. But what could i. what can i do. Man there's a lot here. I'll i'll start this way and then can feel so. Here's what i want you to go at this. Like what's the relational thing going on. And then i'm going to give her some tactical things. Okay so ellen you called us so we're going to be real honest with you that cool. Yeah okay you can go about convincing somebody that they have value. Maybe one of two ways you can show them success in your home. You can like we do with young kids. We can catch them. Being good can catch doing well catch them being successful. The studies show that self esteem comes not from just repeating things over and over but from actual success where you have to overcome and you are You have winds inside your zone of proximal development. Dpd ripe you can also hit somebody with a stick over and over and nag them and beat them up and say you're worth more. You should be making more money or you get another job or your loser. Are you just going to keep doing this. And one causes somebody to turtle up and cut off communication because they're tired of getting beat up and hurt. The other is empowering somebody from the inside out and from your phone call. I can hear the disdain in your voice the frustration in it i. I don't know this is a longer call. We could probably spend a couple of hours on packing this. Whether you just want more money in your house you wanna be more proud of your husband out in the community or if you really looking at a man that you love deeply and it breaks your heart. He doesn't see the same caliber man that you do. He doesn't believe in himself enough. And i don't know which one of those it is and it probably is a mix of all of that. But what i can tell you is complaining and nagging and shoving and hitting solve nothing. Those are never ways to help. A person feel more empowered to go seek more value from themselves. It's all we have to do is create an environment in your home in your marriage where he feels from the inside out that you love him in value him that his voice matters that his dream is not something that subjected to your dream. But it's your dreams are some things that you you co create a future together. He's not in his living there in your house and your dreams. How does that feel to you ellen. I think so. I mean him and i have paid off like one hundred and ten thousand dollars of debt together. That's great i. I do feel like we as a team has really created dream right really coming out of a hole and and going to something bigger. So so what's wrong with him. Just love it his job like what is it about him. Just just going to work. That makes you uncomfortable. I think it's the their its value piece that you know this his we since he's taken this job right. We have had more responsibilities. They have two children And the pay. The pages has not changed. And so i do think that there is something about him. Having earning more and knowing his value has an increased. How would you something. How would you rate him as he is he. Okay with the job hate. The job loved the job. i think he's okay with the job. And that's what i think he likes like. Does he acknowledge on some level that he doesn't doesn't think of himself highly as you do or so. He does acknowledge that. We don't have a ton of time. So i need you to be brief here because i'm taking you somewhere. What what is at the core of that year's wife do you know what is it the cause of him having some self esteem issues not feeling like he. is worth monetary college. He didn't complete college so he doesn't feel like she's a contender or so i- you've listened to my show. Yes or no yes okay and he loves and he listens to yourself. He loves you okay. Good when he listens to me. Do you guys talk about what i talk about in the senses. He ever say you know what this is. What i'm really good at and this is what work i'd really love to do as he ever even some of that giving you some evidence of what work would look like that he would love. Yes what does he say. What is that. He's really strong in customer service so in a customer service role now yes and that's the work he loves to do. Yes okay so. We don't have a massive disconnect here. There's not a massive disconnect. You think he should be making more money. Does he think you should be making more money. Yes okay so so what does it look like okay. So what does it look like. What's the next rung on the ladder. If he's been in his position what would be the next rung on the ladder at that company or another company where he'd still been customer service but he'd be stepping up into a different position but higher up. What is that. have you identified that or has. He knew supervising coaching coaching. Those who are in customer says he liked that work. Does he love that does he. Love playing the role coach. He's a little scared that an ask you that. I'm saying if i could guarantee him that he was good at it. What do you love to do it. yes all right. Here's i want you to do. You're gonna tell him you call it the show right. The dave ramsey show talked about mentioned. We're going to listen to it. Yeah okay good good. I've got about twenty seconds. I got a hand. The ball back to john okay. So what is his name david david. Hey david listen your wife loves you and i know there's been tension here and that's okay because i think you guys are on the same page you've paid off over one hundred thousand dollars of debt and i know you guys love each other. She cares deeply about you. She wants more for you. She wants more for each other. And i think there's some relational stuff you guys have got to work on but the fact that you listen to my show means you do want more but i think there is some real fear and i'd love to call my show. I love you to call me and talk to me. Let's talk about the actual fear of what you're afraid of stepping up into a new opportunity. Let's do that. I promise if you call me will will engage. Thank you so much for that. Call ellen and kenya another show and other time. We're going to talk about what happens if you're just okay. Where you're at the isn't it okay. That'd be the teaser. For the next time you guys all show that question wanna think madison and james for running the show. The producer. James child madison filling in for kelly. Daniel one of my good can always have a great christmas. This has been the dave ramsey show abbas friend or family member. The needs a daily dose of ramsey advice in their life. Let them know about the ramsey. Call of the day podcast. It's a quick head of advice about life and money in under ten minutes. Check out the ramsey call of the day. Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey if you've got questions about retirement investing and becoming an everyday millionaire. Go bigger and broader with my man. Chris hogan on the chris hogan show. I am excited to be able to talk to you all weekend and week out. We're going to focus on your calls. And it's going to focus on building wealth investing and how to become an everyday millionaire subscribed or the chris hogan show wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey it's james producer of the dave ramsey show. This episode is over but check the episode notes for links to products and services. You've heard about during this episode. Thanks for listening.
Episode 438: Anna Sale
"He before we get going. I'm your co host. Aaron lamour i want to tell you about a podcast. It's actually a podcast i made. I spent the last couple years working on this investigative miniseries about this guy gerald cotton. He was the founder of the largest bitcoin exchange in canada until in december twenty eighteen. He died on his honeymoon trip in india. You might have heard about what happened next. No one could find as passwords and as a result over two hundred million dollars worth of his customers. money was frozen. But here's the thing. Not everyone believes the jerry is really dead. I'm not even sure what i believe. So i made this show to try to figure it out. It's called exit scam. You can subscribe right now. The first episode is out may tenth. That's this monday again. It's exit scam in the podcast. Appier choice or on the web at exit scam dot show. I also wanna tell you about our sponsor this week case fleet. You're gonna hear more about them in the middle. But i want to say that. I actually used case fleet well. I was preparing exit. Scam was a great way to get all the pdf's and dates and facts all organized. If you have a project that needs that kind of revolutionary chronology organization and document review you need case fleets safa where you can sign up for a fourteen day free trial at case fleet dot com slash loan form and get ten percent off your first subscription. Okay here's the show. Hello located along. Podcast i'm excellence. Came here with my co host. Erin lamour evan ratliff gentleman helu always a pleasure. I haven't hey earn. Hey max max. What is doing with the show this week. What is doing with the show. This week is that One of my favorite people on the show and sale the host of death. Sex and money talked for the first time on the podcast A couple of years ago several years ago now. So we're so old and I talked to her about her. Podcast essex the money and the interview. She does on that show and why she was doing that show I love that conversation and we kind of kept going. She and i have have stayed in touch since then. Talk a little bit about interviewing and podcasting and getting old and all kinds of stuff and this week. Anna came out with a new book. it's called. let's talk about hard things. It's about interviewing but really it's about how to have difficult conversations and the book is broken up into these different sections One is on death. Sex money of course but also identity and family and each chapter weaves together all of these stories of people being able to have difficult conversations around those topics And so. I talked about the book. And how you go from audio to writing and also. I asked her some hard things myself. You love our conversation max. Yeah it's like your bread and butter. i've put you through through. So many unwanted heart got agents. I did it to evan. Just this morning in fact This show is a bittersweet one. Max perhaps you could tell us why today is a bittersweet day. Because this is the last episode that janelle pifer will add it For those of you who listen to show regularly you have heard genitals name in the credits of every single episode for the last five years. I cannot overstate. How critical donell is to say this. Show getting out every week and to be it sounding coherent at all if anyone is listening to this. Ever listen to the rob versions of these interviews. There are some things that would be revealed what of them. The three of us are kind of idiots. I'm like a gigantic more. that may be impossible to cover up. I don't know well even even worse. Like all of us. Have our like ticks and things. We do engineer comes in every week and just saves us from ourselves and she also makes these conversations cogent and coherent the work that she puts in week after week after week. It's absolutely why the show has continued to come out. And and why it makes sense. And i just i again. I cannot overstate how meaningful contribution to this thing has been and and how much we're gonna miss her. I'll just chime in here and say that Yeah i think this show is probably more product than our product. So if you've been enjoying the show you have been enjoying Gino pifer long for podcast. i personally have very very poor short term memory and Every time i do an interview she asks for notes now went and embarrassingly tried to remember two things that happened in the interview which aren't even actually useful notes. And somehow with absolutely no guidance. She makes all the decisions that i would make and many more better decisions that i would not make makes me sound smart In ways that i am not and i really really appreciate Everything she's done for me in the show so we will really miss you. Yes thank you to know and also. Don't you dare cut all this out. I know that's going to be. It's like it's a very intimate thing This relationship between the three of us and the person who eh this show and I do think that in some ways donell has like come to know us Better than we know ourselves. And the main thing that i can tell people are listening about chanel. Pifer is that she's just exceptional exceptional at this job and we've been really lucky to have her. We've got a new group of editors who are going to start next week Really excited about that but But man we've been. We've been lucky to have him so we're changing some things or keeping things the same like the fact that this show is only possible because of the support of mail chimp who've been here for so many years i don't even know how many years more than five years all the years. Thank you melt. Jim and now here's max with an hyena. Hi max thanks for Thanks for coming back on the show. Thanks for having me so glad to be here. I have a confession for you. Which is that I don't even know when you were on the show. I haven't gone back and listen to it. I should have. I know that. I should have before we talked but i didn't because i feel some shame about that interview. 'cause my recollection is that we talked and then I asked you to come back again. Because i thought i'd fucked it up. No well my recollection. Is that somehow the first time we talked. I spent the first forty five to fifty minutes talking about west virginia. And then somehow you being like This isn't quite what i i think. I don't know i did it again. Well it makes. I guess maybe it makes some sense that you think it's your fault and i think it was my fault but i'm unswayed. I still think it's my fault. And i guess my recollection is that yeah the second time we talked. We talked about harder things. I remember that and that seems fitting because now. You've written a whole book about how you do that. Well my i actually have a memory. I don't always listen back to these things. But i did. Listen to the episode. When it came out and i can picture being in my brooklyn apartment when you asked about starting the show when i was out of the out of the shambles of my first marriage. You'd like it was something like you talked to a lot of people who've been through divorce you've been through a divorce and i can remember. There's like a tightness that shows up in my unlike And like. I wasn't ready to talk about it but we talked about it and i. I think it was really interesting audio moment. It makes me feel like oh little. Anna was still not sure what her personal. Narrative was very freaked. Well i'm. I'm happy for you that you figured it out. 'cause i'm just gonna do that again. I'm just gonna very awkwardly something. Today i have not. I've not grown at all as a person. Meanwhile that's like this like way in your rear view. Now i don't know i have all all kinds of new baggage that you don't know about. Let's start there. What's all your new baggage. My new baggage is i'm forty. I just turned forty in twenty twenty. So i feel like that's really interesting. Unfamiliar territory midlife and new baggage is also. I'm a parent and i think i was apparent before. Yeah i both those things sound very familiar. I just turned forty like a couple of weeks ago and happy birthday. How does forty field to you. Does it feel really different. Yeah it does to me. It's like the rhythm of life feels different than it. Did i just picture my like late. Twenties early thirties as this like hungary open mouth that wanted to like eat everything and try everything and build everything and just like explore. An out of this panic. That if i didn't do that i wasn't going to figure out where i was supposed to be and what i was supposed to be doing and i don't have that angst anymore. It's a different kind of angst which is just like. Yeah how to live life when it's not all about hustling and building but instead like focusing and they'd be making choices about ice spend your time. How much do you think is connected to having checked some real boxes in your professional life like you've never hosting this show for seven years seven years. Yes seven years in may. Yep you're putting a book out into the world. Like how much do you think that. That feeling like Those pressures aren't there that angst isn't there's much is about having achieved that stuff or just like getting to this point in your life. Do you know what i mean. Yeah no i think. I feel so grateful and glad that you know i feel like the first part of my career was like what am i supposed to be doing and like searching around and then figuring out i'm supposed to be interviewing and kind of figuring out how to like pull steph out of people and make audio about it and so i knew that and then and then the next crisis was like now i know what i really want to do an am i gonna get to do it in the way that i want and getting to make show and start a show and build a team and build a team culture and build a listening community like oh it's so great and i don't feel that fear anymore like i'm doing it. I'm doing the thing that i'm supposed to be doing. What so great. But now it's things like what is my. What's fueling my ambition now. Is it really like do. I want my name in like bigger and bigger lights. How much is this as ego stuff. Like 'cause there is still a big part of me that like somebody emails me with an exciting opportunity. And i'm like hell. Yes yes and then it'd be like wait. Whoa hang on. How much travel is that gonna taken like. Liz pay the right amount of money. Going to get to like put a new bathroom floor and or not like You know those kinds of midlife boring logistical concerns. Like it's just like am. I living the values that i say. I'm living or am i. Am i just feeding this. Like bottomless pit ambition ego that that's like sort of the question. I men with like the next phase of my career. Do you know what you need to be. Content in the ambition go department. Have you figured that out. Well no. I think though the question i'm trying to ask myself when it comes to work is like i quickly have a sort of like. Ooh that's interesting. I want to do this thing but then a new question that it feels more. Urgent to me is like wait. What is that work in service of rate so it could be that. It's oh this. Work is in service of like building the capacity of the automaker's around me and that feels really good to be like moving into this teacher role or it could be. This is in service of elevating this issue. I think is really important. And i want to do this collaboration. Because it's gonna do that but sometimes i'll get excited about something and it'll be like. Is this just because you want more attention. Anna is this just in service of like anna industries. Yeah you know. And i think that right now. I'm not the person i want to be growing into. I want to be able to answer. I'm doing this for some other intentional reason than attention and you feel like you've got the space right now to be that intentional. I don't know who knows. I think i'm you're catching me at the end of a really long term project working on this book alongside working on a show and that was a lot so i think that you're catching me at just like this moment of like okay anna okay just take a breath a little bit of like a reset moment. Yeah can we talk about your book second. Sure my vision of this is that you like just wrote the whole thing very industriously during the pandemic while also making a podcast and taking care of you two young children and you did it all in some sort of magic way is that a is that right. That's a hundred percent wrong lake. I started this book. I worked on the proposal. I think i started maybe at the very tail end of twenty sixteen and then had a proposal by like maybe like late winter twenty seventeen and then sold the book in may of two thousand seventeen so it has been a four year process. Dude agents come to you or did you agents. Oh as soon as that sex and money was a thing that anyone had listened to book agents for like. Hey diva book idea which is like a really heavy thing like no but maybe and so then so i sort of like tossed that around for a long time it would be fun to write a book and then it would be like wait like a book has to be an idea that you're really excited about because it's a lot a lot of work but oh you know a lot of the people who reached out would say like. Do you want to do a a deaths of money. Book where we could transcribe interviews and put your face on the front and people will buy it. And i didn't want to do that if i was going to write. I wanted to write something that was written to be. Read not something that was better if you listen to it and i think what kind of eventually sort of like the sort of question i had for myself was like people would say like how do you do this. How do you get people to and how you have these hard conversations on your show. And i would sort of like improv. My answer to that in interviews and then i was like well wait. What if i like tried to articulate something about what i've learned and put words to whatever intuition i have about it and then read about what other people have said about hard conversations and then talk to other people and move it out of the realm it i. I thought i was going to write a book like for journalism students about the art of interviewing at that was an idea at one point and then i was like. Oh it's much more interesting to sort of admit that the conversations i have in a podcast setting like. They're hard but whoa. It's a lot harder when you're talking in your personal life with someone where their stakes on both sides in it's a relationship that's going to continue or not At the end of a hard conversation. So that's sort of what led to the book and once you've settled on that idea you've just been working on it steadily for a couple of years like how did you balance writing a book and hosting the show Balances not the correct verb. How did how did you let those two things tear you apart. I worked in a lot of different ways. I mean i. At first i was like. I'm going to not work on. Fridays on the show and use that for reporting and writing. And i'm gonna just kind of tackle these big chapters as a de chapter six chapter money section Family and identity. Tis title these chapters. One at a time and get these really rough drafts and so i would use friday's as reporting time in reading time and writing and i took like three months per chapter or thereabouts through each big draft and that was about the first year of working on the book and then i had a baby another baby which sort of slow i had to do that. I email that was like the books not going to be ready when it says it's going to be ready in that contract. I'm still working on it. But then i worked on it. I had i have wonderful maternity. Leave parental leave at newark public radio. It's a really good reason to work for new york. Public radio the parental leave. I had six months paid. So i was able to be with my baby and also work on the book when she was napping and that was really my first carved out time to work on the book. And then i would take. I took two weeks vacation here. Three weeks of vacation there And then somehow finally i was doing some l. Finally i was doing final edits during the pandemic but i had a rough draft pre pandemic like rough rough draft and then this last year has just been like figuring out how to make it really click together. We should tell people quickly. Just how it's structured so there's like five chapters death sex money family identity and each one starts with a kind of short. Sas sort of thing about yourself in your relationship to whatever that topic is and then it moves into like a pretty like reported analysis of that thing and trying to pull in a whole bunch of different experiences to that idea of talking through whatever it might be which can be difficult. so that's the structure of the book. Yeah and i think like one of the subplots of the book is like anna. Starts the book being like. I thought i could just ek study my way through hard things and fixed things that were hard and when that didn't work with couples counseling and self help books and trying to figure out how this dopp marriage from sort of falling apart. It's sort of a process of like coming to know that like. Oh there's not like a skilfulness that's going to problem. Solve hard things for you in life in particular in conversation but what hard conversations can do is like. You can sort of like witness. What's hard you can be with. What's hard admit what's hard like when you're talking about money with a friend who has different amount of money than you. If you just say we're coming at this from different places like instead of being like you know like not admitting to like then you can sort of just like you're admitting the hard thing and that can it be. Its own relief. That you're not trying to like talk your way around it and that some hard conversations. They are successful when they end in a place. That's like oh we're not going to agree on this. This conversation has run. Its course and so. That's sort of the subplot of my life. that's underlying the book. Hey this is your co host aaron. I'm gonna pause things here briefly to tell you about our sponsor of this week case fleet. Who hooked me up. What their software happened to be working on a project that it was perfect for. I had lots of documents stuck in my email. That had all kinds of facts. I needed for this project i was working on. I uploaded them to case fleet and it does this auto recognize thing where it extracts texts and dates so instantly. You can start putting things on a chronological time. Line has built in text recognition and full text search so no longer was i- hunting for documents. In fact i was able to search within those documents and probably the part i found the most impressive was how well recognized different ways to write out a date from different documents I've never seen this kind of fuzzy search work. So well i think case fleet would be great for a lawyer but also great for someone Writing nonfiction making a podcast doing something Deepen the archives with history it really can work for a variety of applications. And if you're intrigued you can do a fourteen day. Free trial at case fleet dot com slash long form. You'll get ten percent off your first subscription. thanks case fleet. Here's the show What was the writing process like for you. I mean. I think people who listened death. Sex money might underestimate how much like writing it goes into that show. But what was it like for you going from audio to running a whole fucking book It was interesting at the things. I was really comfortable writing. And the things. I really had to be like kind of coached through and like gin pep talks. I found the memoir staff. There's lots of memoir pieces of the book and that that was fun to right. That's like stuff i'd done. I'd done personal essay stuff before. So i could get into that and then the Finding the characters to talk to for each the reported people. I basically was like who's gone through some real moments of crisis around this particular topic and i wanna know like what were the helpful conversations. What were the harmful conversations. What would you tell a friend about how we ought to talk about this. And that was like a muscle that i've been building with the sex and money casting people finding the interesting stories. But i would write up those interviews. You know sort of write it. In a writer lee way and then i would just like end each section. The person like and so. That's the end of that person's story like just like i like the podcast episode in in my editor really had to coach me into like anna. Tell the reader what they just read. And why it's important and i to be like you know it's it's too much i don't wanna put a bow on it and he's like no no just like just it's okay. It's okay to say like so thus here's the concluding paragraph or two to the section and. I think that was just me not being comfortable in sort of like x. purdy role. You know you're why would you comfortable in their whole thing is because that was what was different like in the show. I'm i'm so my way of reporting is like lemme understand that. And i hear you saying not in. That seems intention with that. Like let's talk about that. It's like pulling out the things and then i like that. The listener is like oh. I hear that. I hear what she did there. But i'm not gonna say. Did you hear what. I did there. But i think with writing and in particular a book where you're saying. There's gonna be a usefulness for this book in your life. You're gonna learn how to do this. I did need to step up and say like so. You know when this person said this thing about what was going on in their family and at unfolded this way like. Here's a way that this can be. Broadly applied what did you want to encourage or inspire people. Do if anything like like. There's some call to arms in the book. Oh i think there's a call to arms in it. I mean i think what i i wanted to say. This is not a book that you're gonna pull off the shelf and be like. Oh here's the script for the sympathy card that i have been putting off writing. 'cause i don't know what to say and i think that those books can be really useful but this is a book that it does give you sort of short sentences for like what people have what has crystallized a moment of like win. They talked about something that needed to be addressed in a relationship. And i hope more than feeling like you can go to it for a script. You like here these other people who have done this and so i can lean towards these kinds of conversations where i feel myself afraid. I'm gonna lose the thread. Little bit on shaky ground. And that the reason you do that is because that vulnerability that openness in that curiosity of what. You're what you might hear from somebody else by being like. I know we've never talked about this. But i i wanna know you know harry feeling about being eighty years old when you have those kinds of conversations that something really important is created. And it's something that like reinforces our relationships to one another. It's an important practice and so less of a sort of script. I wanted this to be a like. This is why it's worth trying. Do you feel like an expert. Now i feel like i am an expert in trying and like the ways to create the conditions for when you can win. It's the best time to wait into these kinds of conversations. Like i think a lot about what do i need to communicate to this person so they understand like why i'm coming at them with either these questions or this thing i need to say like how do i create the conditions for them to be the most prime to be able to hear something or answer. Something that's gonna feel a little bit uncomfortable. Like i think it's really important when you are trying to move into a different mode of communication outside of sort of every day bitter patter chitchat like to say like. Hey i need to talk to you about something or you know. Something's been on. My mind is now a good time to talk. Just kind of creating the conditions where the person who you are bringing that up to is like okay and then choosing how to create those first couple of questions you have or that thing you need to say and like bringing a spirit of curiosity rather than judgment in that bat initial phase can be transformative and in what kind of conversation will follow. Is that something. You've always been good at. I think i've had a lot of really good practice. Thanks to being from a family of five daughters. There's a lot of talking about feelings I've always been very like my personality is one in which i want us. Sort of like dig in you know and then like being a news reporter like our training to like. How do i get the person to say the thing in twenty seconds like how to have that sort of like what's going on in your life like what do you know how you feeling. Are you feeling worried. Feeling excited just like the really fast imperative of establishing rapport. Like that is something that news reporting top me so i've had it coming from a lot of directions. I understand the context in which you do that. Journalistically and i think part of what. I'm curious about his like. Are you just like like that in your life like are you going for it with people who may have not totally advertised that they are comfortable going for it. You don't have you'd like is. Is there some element to you. Were like you might not know someone super well and you're kind of like ask you a very personal question here like is that kind of your. Your vibrant are now. Is that who. I am at the dinner party. i think. sometimes. I'm that person at the dinner party. I mean the thing that my husband arthur will often whenever we are with other people that like a mealtime which is complicated when you have little kids like all the needs that are happening in circulating all the time like he will say like when you click into a conversation with someone you just stop paying attention to like who needs their wine. Glass refilled what the kids are doing. Your daughter's like in your ear. And i like i'm like locked in so it's not so much that i'm asking you know. Oh my god. When did you lose your first job. What was it like being laid off at like a dinner table first thing but i do like really enjoy the one on one conversation and like digging in with one of the things that i was interested in reading the book was how to get a feel for when it's the right moment or okay not just like the best conditions but when you're not imposing that conversation on someone who maybe doesn't totally wanna have it you know i. I think that's one of the challenges with these kinds of conversations. Is that even people you know. Well like long time friends. Sometimes you'll just don't wanna go there. And yeah i don't know i find that hard to sort of get a feel for sometimes. Yeah or you feel it. And then you're like oh. I'm very aware when i've done it looking for some sort of warning signal. That could be said up. That's like this person who wanna fuck and talk about it. Yeah i mean. I have certainly like messed up that line before and i. I think that it's that like when i'm talking to someone. Whether in my personal life were with work. It's like listening for a lot of cues about like run getting too hot or too close. You know. And i think that there's an important ethical as a journalist like you gotta pay attention to those because if you're talking to people about traumatic things like i always try to sort of pause there and sort of say like how do you wanna talk about this or not talk about this. Draw the lines for me. Help me understand how you wanna talk about this. But i do think more often than not when you come to someone with real like how did you do that. Or what. was that. Like like a real curiosity and so it's like this invitation to like. Tell me what you are learning. We're have learned people really like to talk and share and especially when they notice that you're listening because that is not an everyday occurrence you know like i. I have this memory. I was just talking to a friend about it like i. I spent time in wyoming every year. My husband does field work in wyoming and we were there for a lot of the pandemic where the joke was six feet. Isn't that a little close. And like you know. There aren't a lot of like outward feelers in wyoming. The the corner wyoming. I'm in and like. I can remember like is on like out in the woods with a friend who was born and raised in north west wyoming and like talking to him about like the birth of his children. You know we were just talking about becoming parents and the emotion that he shared and the like feeling that he shared it was just like it just had to be done in the right way. Those conversations can happen with people who aren't the people you think who are totally feelings forward. Does it ever get heavy for you. Yeah yeah. I mean. I to me what i notice is if i'm talking to someone about something that happened to them that they've had time to sort of reflect on an absorb in now have something they want to sort of like testify to like. I have been through this. You know that those even when it's really challenging stuff like interviewing my one of my best friends from growing up leslie about like what. It was like to go through the delivery of a stillborn baby like talking to her about that as sad as that is for us to do it also feels. It's not in the moment. The crisis is not happening right now. That was years ago and so now it feels like a story that she wants to share as just like this happened to me when i do feel the heaviness. It's when i'm talking to someone who is right in it like right in the feeling of all of the heaviness and doesn't know how they're going to be able to lay any of it down in that that can be really hard dramatic things are also just like when you have a conversation you want to offer like want us be able to say that thing that's going to lift some of that and instead what you have to say is i'm so sorry you're carrying all that thank you for talking to me about it. Those are the conversations. Where like i have to go for a walk after and just like. Yeah yeah do you think that having hard conversations gets easier like can hard. Conversations stopped being hard at some point. I think you can use to the feeling of feeling out of control and that makes them less scary. I think white people know this feeling like the first time you really tried to talk about being a white person to someone in your life who is not a white person like. That's a scary conversation to have the first time and then to keep pushing yourself to have it and then you finally like you might get to the point with that particular friend or in your life like we're making jokes about your being. A white person is like something that's incorporate so you're just like here's the ways that i am in. I'm going to make some mistakes. You know like. I think that. That's you kind of get more comfortable in the space of like descriptive real time language. Instead of like. Here's what i know you know. There's there's some muscle memory like you. Just you jumped out of this plane before yeah and like learn to humility and you know learned humility and also the practice of like trying and maybe messing up and trying again but then you like even though that feels uncomfortable you see that there is something that has happened as a result of you. Just keep keeping trying rono. That's important and does anything about your curiosity or interest or energy or like desire for those conversations. Does any of that dissipate. Once they don't feel as scary I don't think it's like this scariness. That attracts me to it. I think like there was a different kind of urgency to least hard conversations in my work when the show started the urgency was. I don't know how to build my life and i need. I need someone to give me some models and now. I have a lot of these incredible amazing building blocks that i'm really proud of and love of my. You know my marriage and my kids and my work and so it's not so much like oh my god tell me some like now. It's more like let's compare notes. What's it been like for you so now. it's just sort of like. Oh i just wanna know more and more variations on this studying that it's connected to that idea being an expert to like the energy of dex. Money at the beginning was desperate. Yes that's the word is good. That's the word. I was voiding. Say hey like you were. You fucking wanted to figure some stuff out you and my sense reading the book. It was hard for me not to read it and then be like i'm edge. Figured some shit out. You know like there's like an element in which the book is a little bit like of of Tying the bow on in the way that you're talking about at the end of these passages. And i think the question. I'm trying to ask his leg once. You're an expert and you're writing a book that's like this is how you do this lake. Then what do you do okay. I actually have an answer to this. 'cause i think it's i thought about this a lot. I mean the first three years of the show show started in two thousand fourteen. I got married in twenty fifteen. I had my first child. And twenty sixteen my second child and twenty eighteen legged and i moved to california in two thousand sixteen. It was just like stuff was up in. The air and stuff is not so much up in the air. Now and i say that with the big caveat of like who even knows what's could be around the corner but i think what i'm interested in now is it sort of a larger mission where it's less about help. Anna sale figure out her own personal life so she's not as freaked out and it's more lake. We have this enormous question of like how we are supposed to live together in america right now and lake. Where is it that we hold firm to our principles and speak truth to power. And where is it that we listen. And i don't have the answer and where that line is but that is something that like every institution in america's grappling with right now every family is grappling with right now every like. How do we live together. And i think the show in its way has this and the book. I hope it kind of gives this. It's like a guide for how to lake try to do that. At the most micro level like in the conversations. You're having with the people in your life that you love with the people in your life that you work with like. How do we do this together. And that takes getting more comfortable with just like. Here's where i disagree with you. But here's where i know we've got like work on something together because there's a larger project so think of the i don't know if it's desperation but i certainly feel like the health of our society right now is not one that i feel great about launching my kids into like i want to try to be a part of like helping them learn how to be in this world with humility and also grounded and values and i think that comes from learning how to talk to people but a forty year old. Well i part of what i hear you saying lake. It is actually still a kind of desperation. It's just that in two thousand fourteen. It was like pretty internal and now. Maybe it's more external. Yeah that's how. I think about it and with that comes the like. Oh if it's not out my own personal questions. Driving the conversation like then what our listeners telling us they need to hear from what our producer saying they want to talk about leggings needs a cool thing of just like opening up like what does not know how to talk about because she is a forty year old. Like what is she just like. He's got with it on some of this other stuff. Like what do i have to keep learning about. So that's a cool like process of like widening the mission and it's interesting because i think we have this sort of like how do we engage with the world and america right now sort of thing and then also people still really need to know like i need to know how to date like do an episode about dating rose things if your enemy is no less urgent. So we're we're kind of trying to do what we've done and also do this. This broader stuff question. I i am. Uh-huh know this isn't this isn't like i'm not gonna ask divorce. No no. I just wonder i feel like you do a sneak attack with hard questions towards the end of interviews. I'm curious with the says. let's let's see. This is a very open ended question. I feel like. I've listened to you for hours and hours and i just read this book like i feel like i know you pretty well. We never really like hung out. But i feel. I feel like i know you pretty well. One time. one time we did we had drinks. Yeah i just feel like. I know you pretty well. You know but then i just the experience i had put down. The book says like our that put a bunch of language. A bunch of shit. That i think about a lot. And there's a lot in here about anna. And i have no idea what's not in here about anna and i have no idea in the show like what you're holding back and i wonder if you think you'd be able to articulate like what the gap is between and sale hosted the podcast sex money and the person that the people who know you best know i mean i think my persona is my best self out to say that like i think the people who know me up-close know a lot more of the ways that i disappointed them disappointing I wish i could be the kind of like present listener and friend that i am on the show to people. I love in my life like a more lake. Part of that is just like being busy with two little kids and work and stuff. But like i know what that can be And i wish i did that. More do the the people around you like. Listen to the show. And like i talked to fucking anna like that sky and talk to her for two weeks. I mean i'm sure i like. I know that there are people in my life who've been like oh in puts herself up as this person who has hard conversations in these really patient open ways but like you know for people. I love and have really big feelings with like picture when i fight with my husband and we when we have conflicts like we argue like we fight and we have gotten really Like i know pattern because we've done it a lot in the last year. I'm very aware. And you know. Like i am can be really reactive and protective of my own narrative of things and defensive in a way. That's like embarrassing to me. After the fact like. I'm not always like a great patient listener. But what i've tried to do and i think hopefully that book is helping me a little bit more is like even when my brain is telling me to like dig in and not try to win this argument. Like i'm trying to get a little bit more familiar with what that feels like in my body when i get that hot angry in realize. Oh this is what you feel like. When you're not acting in the way that you really wanna be acting. Does that make sense. No that totally makes sense. I think i think maybe asking me about something slightly different which is like you said earlier that you found writing the personal stuff in the book really fun and the personal stuff in the book is lake your marriage falling apart and your sex life. The weird word chilly sir. Yeah a little bit kind of like a tiny bit like. It's like dat essay about our sex life when we were trying to conceive what a good time it was to write. That is like not is a surprising description. I would say and i think that's what i'm actually trying to figure out is like if that's not like hard or scary or unpleasant to put out in the world in some way maybe asking for specifics. I guess i'm asking you about like how comfortable you have gotten with putting that stuff out to the point that you're like that's really fun Like what do you hold back for yourself. You know what i mean. Yeah i mean maybe fun is the wrong word. I find it sort of interesting. I found it interesting and challenging and also like it was sort of like to have the space that it was an assignment that i had to like. Sit down and be like what have you been through. Anna like this has been so. I don't think you know. I was talking about painful things and sad things and not just my divorced but also like being so freaked out about like committing to arthur like the back and forth. We had when we were figuring out if we were going to be together like in thinking about oh that lot of ways that was hurtful to him me not being able to decide like that doesn't feel good to read back even like it wasn't it doesn't feel good. You know but i know what it is. Maybe it's that like writing. I kind of forgot that people are going to read this. So that was part of it was like oh what i been through and then and now like my god max. You're making me realize like people reading. But then i tell myself you know like it's like inservice of something i believe in which is like modeling. How messy it can be while you're figuring it out. Yeah i think maybe the question. I've been circling ravages. Probably impossible to answer is basically like you've made this whole like field of work for yourself about things. That are hard talking about things that are hard writing about things that are hearts saying things are hard sitting with things. That are hard. And the thing that i don't know you well enough to know is whether that's hard for you or maybe doing things that are hard for other people here actually kind of good with. Yeah i mean. I hear what you're saying. Which is like you've organized your life around all these things that cause stress in life and make it not easy and like what. What are you get out of that. It's like it's like. Do you watch that documentary about the guy who like free climbed the crazy cliff. Yeah what's it called free solo here. They did the study on his brain. Just doesn't he just missing the part where you get scared. You know what. I have wondered. I don't think i am missing scared part of my brain. No i mean the the part that that really feels the thing is hard. It's maybe when. I'm wondering i'm glad you're asking this because i have wondered like. Is there some way. My brain is different. I'm album a brain scan. I'm interested like what is what. What is that part. I don't know. But i i do. I have paused while writing this book. And while doing the show to go. Like am i part alien like why do i feel slightly less repelled than the average person of just trying to have these conversations and why is that and i don't know i don't know what it is. I think the thing that it makes me think about This is like kind of cheesy. But i do feel like i think about the family. I grew up in and the lake. Deep security and confidence that i came out of that family with and so somehow i don't know i thought about nature nurture. I don't know i think the family thing is is right. Because there's there's this moment in the family section of the book where you describe calling your folks like minutes after your marriage ended and they're just everything you would ever want parents to be in that moment you know. They're just like we're here for you. It's okay part of what i hear you saying is lake. You grew up knowing that it was going to be okay you now and i think that that's part of what having hard conversations about is also like knowing that on the other side it's not gonna be all okay but like it's going to exist you're going to be alive you know and you like you do that enough times. Get through something hard and still like have to put your shoes on in the morning and it feels lowest. Daunting you know. Well that makes me. Just wanna shout out. June and bill sale thank you. That's that's a nice thing for a daughter to be able to play their parents when their daughter is grown for them to hear on a podcast. So that's meaningful work you're doing is very very meaningful and looks real good. Congratulations oh man. You are a really gifted interviewer. Thank you very nice to say thanks to do it. Thank you max. Thanks to the long form. A maximum schema. Co-hosts are aaron. Lamour never lift our editor for the last time john l. Pifer thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you are. Intern is susan. Peterson our sponsor as always he's male chimp thanks to them. Thanks to case fleet who also sponsored this week's episode and thanks so much to nfl for For taking some time and sticking with me that one her book is called. Let's talk about hard things. Clearly she's very very good at that. We'll see next week.
"You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan show now. Here's Kevin. You're listening to the sports. Fix Sports. Fix Tuesday Tommy by phone I'm in-studio. And we've got so much to catch up on because it's been since Thursday. Since we talked I didn't do a podcast yesterday. I did plan to take the day off I would have had to take the day off anyway for those of you that all already heard me. Regale about my back injury from the weekend. You can check out for twenty seconds. But I wrecked my back. Tommy you've known me for a long time. And you remember some of those days in studio. Where I had some back issues and I'd have to stand up in almost do the show standing up every once in a while. It has an I i. haven't had this happened to me in a long time. It's been a couple of years since I got myself into position where it's hard for me to sit. It's hard for me to dry for more than fifteen minutes. I'm on everything right now. I'm on a super anti-inflammatory I've got some pain meds like you did. Not Going to tell you which ones because it's very very sensitive, information very private. But I. I have not been in this much bat. For those of you that are just joining the program I've had to lower back surgeries, but both of those were more than ten years ago. Now you know I had to lower back L, five s one. His and you know Mike Orthopedic at the time. Told me look. You'RE GONNA? End Up having to get your back fused at some point and he sort of. It could be you know you'll get another decade. Added this hopefully as long as you don't do stupid things and keep your core strong, and all these different things, which I haven't done consistently but Oh, my God i I knew exactly what the issue is, if I'm in a car for a long period of time, and I get out and go basically right to the I -I, which is what happened Sunday without advil without sort of warming up then I'm at. At risk, and by about the fifth or sixth hole, I was in trouble. Sunday so much so that I did have to get some of these pain meds, but good right now I feel really good. You know what I just found out about my studio here and the table in which I have my microphone and my desktop and a lot of different equipment I just found that this is a stand or sit table, did you? Do you have one of those? Everything I own. Everything. Because sitting is the new smoking. Tommy might I, didn't have it plugged in, but there's been this thing on the edge of the table. The this little button thing with an Arrow Down Arrow and I've always wondered what the hell was well. Apparently, this table goes up and it comes down. If you want to stand in work, you can stand in work, or you can put it down and you can sit in work. It just hadn't been plugged in yet. So I, you know we had some phone issues here and so I had the guy in, and he was fixing the phone, and so he said Hey you know you're you're up. Stand. Sit isn't plugged in. Did you know that? Did you even know you had that? I said I had no idea so. This is really cool because I can I. Don't know if you can hear this or not. I can hear you. Can you hear that noise? That's going up and now I don't hear it annoy then it comes down I know you hear me. And Anyway I'm able to stand now and. Do the show which is good news today while I'm recovering which. I'm going to be fine, no, no need to feel. Any empathy towards me. I'm going to be fine. I've never yesterday was a planned day off. so I have still never missed a day of work for any injury, and maybe only one or two for sickness over the last sixteen or seventeen years. I'm proud of that as you know. It Oh. You you sound like a train wreck. Only four I don't you're not like you've done something. Well the meds are helping this morning. The meds your helping got a little painkiller in me again. I would if you shared your pain killer information with me a few months ago I'd be I'd be wide open to sharing it with you, but I'm not going to was very. Let's listen. A couple of days in the DA starts knocking on your door. Buddy, then you'll be sorry. I wanted to tell you because I mentioned this before we get started and I asked you. If you seen a movie that I watched over the weekend for the first time, the name of the movie is the master. It's with walking Phoenix and Philip. Seymour Hoffman. Amy Adams in. I E there's probably another person that I'm forgetting. It's one of those Paul Thomas Anderson. Movies I'd seen it I'm a big walking Phoenix Fan. I really loved the joker. I forgot if we talked about that or not. I'm assuming that we did I think. The joker was outstanding in terms of walking Phoenix's latest movie I'd never seen the master, and my son Corbin said to me. You've got to watch this movie, and so for whatever reason I sat down and I watched the movie over the weekend. and. I've heard how great this movie is. Now you you saw you've seen it in. You really liked it right? It's from Twenty Yeah Twenty. Two thousand twelve something like that it was made. Twelve, okay basically look. I like pretty much almost everything Paul. Thomas Anderson does. He did he did? There will be blood one of my favorites. What trump tremendous movie the master I loved. Philip Seymour Hoffman was. It may have been his best performance ever, and it's sort of like loosely based. On an elrod Hubbard kind of character. You know the whole dianetics thing. Scientology and it's kind of. He's kind of that kind of character. elrod Hubbard Kinda figure because. You're you're saying Philip Seymour Hoffman? Because it's very cultish. Yes! So you really liked it. Absolutely absolutely. I mean. It's it's emotionally. It's an emotional investment. You know and not everybody who I know people who've watched. It didn't like it. but for me I me I I. Now I. WanNa see it again. So. I will tell you that the first. Hour and a half. was phenomenal. And you know you're just sitting there mesmerized by another one of these incredible walking Phoenix performances, but also the movie so interesting you see you know Philip Seymour Hoffman Character he's basically you know this this know everything figured it all out. You know past lives. Future lives the whole thing. That's got many cult going. From town to town and. He is on walking phoenix sort of a client. But somebody he's gotten very close to by accident. You know Joaquin Phoenix has this major drinking problem a world? He's a World War Two. A Pacific veteran and he sort of stumbles onto Philip Seymour Hoffman's boat wasn't his boat I found out later but I loved. I'm riveted for the first hour and forty minutes, and then the last twenty minutes or last half hour came and I still can't figure out why it ended so. For those of you that haven't seen it. I don't mean to ruin it for you, and you may have a completely different interpretation. Anyway but I thought it was such a week ending to what was a great movie by the Way Romney Malik. Senate to this was Rami Malik right after he did the Pacific, and before obviously he became the Big Star with with with the human rhapsody in in in the last year and a half, but I just didn't. I just didn't get the I. Mean We? We understand Tommy that Freddie Quell. which is the character played by Joaquin? Phoenix ends up essentially you know breaking free of Philip Seymour Hoffman's you know. Lock if you will, and he decides to move on with his own life, and he finds in that very last seen in a new woman after he out that his the girl Doris who was this sixteen year old that before he went to the war, she seemed to be in love with him, but he realized she was too young. He came back promise. The always would I thought that scene with the mother was great where the mother you can tell really liked. Freddie Quell even though he's clearly you know his mother's insane and in an insane asylum. He's had a lot of stuff including a major drinking problem, the effects of war, the effects of of mental. Mental instability. But God it was such a disappointing ending to what was a great first three quarters of a movie. Do you remember what I'm talking about? I'd have to go back and watch it again. I know basically. At the end. I. Don't I don't want to reveal the end. you know in case people want to watch it. I'd have to go back and watch it again. I didn't feel unsatisfied with the ending and she okay, but it's not fresh in my mind either. Anyway I recommend. I recommend people watch it. I do I do, too. You know a lot of people didn't like a lot of my friends didn't like there will be blood which I thought was brilliant. And of course you know Daniel Day Lewis is phenomenal. in that movie I loved that movie that movie start to finish one of the best ever and if you don't know Paul Thomas Anderson from either there will be blood or the master. He did boogie nights to which I'm assuming, yes have. Great Move Rate Movie. Yeah I. Mean You make a great movie about a serious freight movie about pornography? At about about a how how big a guy stick is yeah. and it's hard. It's hard to do with an R next to it. Yes. You do it, I mean. Again I mean his movies. Stick with you. you know boogie nights? It's just sticks with me that the scene where they're playing where they're trying to buy the coke from the guy and you've got the. Girl rich the Rick Springfield Song playing in the background. Judy Gold Guy and Jesse's girl Rick Springfield breaking away from soap opera fame to record a single. Well I know Rick for Infield out of single back the sixty four that. Guy You know what I think I did. Know that, but do you know where my I responding field? Experience came. What General Hospital when I was in college. General Hospital, you know General Hospital is probably the most popular. Of that daytime soap operas ever been the Luke and Laura of the eighties. Some of you will know what I'm talking about and Rick Springfield ended up becoming a significant figure on general hospital in the eighties. And then. Sing. My soap opera. Going to college was one life to live. Well one life. One life to live pre in college was when I was watching soap operas. All my children was on one one life to live was on a to in general hospital was on three. Yeah, I in college, I watched soap operas. I didn't watch all three of those general. Hospital became an addiction for a lot of a lot of people back then especially people that were younger and had free time like a college student you know, did I'm but the Lucan Laura you know relationship and drama is probably their wedding and I. Don't know what year that was. I don't know I. Think it's still the highest rated daytime program. That isn't sports of all time. I i. think that's true. The daytime programs I would think you're right. I'm I'm going to look that up here because I am. Luke and Laura, General Hospital. All right from okay, so from one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, nine and nineteen, eighty-eight General Hospital, had more viewers than any other daytime soap opera to the top of the ratings in the early eighties in part, thanks to the monumentally popular super couple super couple, Luke and Laura, who's nineteen eighty-one wedding brought in thirty million viewers in remains the highest rated our in American soap opera history. Now that's different from what? What I described, but maybe that's what I remember you know thirty million wouldn't be a super, but you know it well. First of all thirty, million's a lot for any daytime program including you know a big football game you know which probably assuming that football games are the highest rated day programming you know shows in television history bees. It's almo- almost everything's NFL anyway. In terms of the highest rated programs. But thirty thirty million viewers Tommy in Nineteen eighty-one for that wedding. That's amazing that I mean I think. Are there any real soap operas on network? TV? One I have no idea. I haven't I haven't watched a soap opera probably in thirty years certainly yet every bit of thirty years. I have no idea I would make. It looks like General. Hospital is still on the at least according to Wikipedia. It looks like it's still on. Why have have soap operas just gone away for what daytime? Talking programming. Talk Show Yeah Right. You know everybody's got a talk show, of course they do. How did we get to that? Rick Springfield yet. Dr Drake on a General Hospital was rick. Springfield and I didn't I. Think I knew this Tommy, but I but I. don't remember his. Music career in the sixties. But you did. I speak to this guy on my playlist some iphone. It's a catchy song. Is it good well? Go back and watch the master again when I mean you have time after. You know a a walk and a few calls. Go Watch the watch that movie and tell me if you think I'm right. I was disappointed at the ending. That's all. Philip Seymour Hoffman, but in Charlie Wilson's war was so good, God we. See a great actor. Absolutely boogie nights boogie nights at slowly played in boogie nights, yeah! Yeah, absolutely. I'm watching the series. Now called Yellowstone here my God I. I've heard about it. You know before I watched this movie over the weekend I was looking at. Should I start a series and I went and read like the first couple of descriptions of the first two episodes of yellowstone which Kevin Costner. And others and I thought about starting it, so tell me, is it worth it? I think it's worth it. It took me a couple of episodes to really get invested in the characters and I'd liked it. That's it. It's got this law that other series like a pet first of all everybody. Everybody in the show is evil. It's not a good person to be found anywhere, but even evil people like to make a joke once in a while. You know there's not a mile in the whole theory. Not One man that's kind of like that series. It was another Western that I watched a few years ago may have been one full season on HBO. And it was really dark. No not dead words. Well that's that's it's. It's pretty dark I. mean there's not there's no redeeming qualities than anybody anywhere, but I'm caught up in it now. You know I'm on the season two now. So I'm into it. And I always liked Kevin. Costner and I like a whole. You know I had no idea that Montana was. Full of so many rich people. Oh my God. I had no idea. Oh, yeah, well, it's just like. it's just like. Jackson Hole Wyoming you know you take those big western towns that are just you know among the wealthiest zip codes in our country Jackson. Hole Wyoming his Aspen Colorado is, but Montana's got a couple of those as well. That's one four states I've never been to. Montana! I've been to Montana a few times, but the first time I went to Montana I think I've told you about this trip, my. Twenty one junior year college summer, my Buddy Mike and I basically did this drive away service. Where we drove a family that had moved from DC to actually northern California. We drove their car. They paid for all the gas and the idea was back. Then even if they have these things anymore where you drive their car out for them, and they told us before we took it. Take as much time as you want. And we did and one of the we spent a I'll never never forget this, so yellowstone park is Wyoming and then I guess it would be southwest. Montana basically is yellowstone I'd have to look at a map to see exactly, but I remember we were in. We drove all night from wherever we words. It's like. We're already a few days into the trip minimum and We pulled the car over in Yellowstone Park. And fell asleep. It was in June. We woke up the next morning shivering as our car Wisconsin with snow. This is in June and there are. There are mule deer, which are the big huge, dear walking around the car. I mean big animals walking around the car and we're like Holy Shit. Around here, we're out here in it now. I'm pulling up a map to see if I have that right. I'm pretty sure. Yellowstone is mostly in Wyoming, but a sliver of it is in if it's in Wyoming, which is south. Montana it would be North West Wyoming and southwest Montana. Why can't I find a map of yellowstone? Anyway I think that's IT I. May have that wrong. Where most of its in Montana, in just a sliver of it is in Wyoming, but I think I have that right? I think I. Have that right could be wrong. Anyway I can't find oh here it is. I'm right. I'm A. I'm right. Here is Yellowstone National Park looks like it's mostly in Wyoming and yes, there's a sliver of it in Montana. And somehow we were in the Montana portion of the park, and that was the first time in Montana Tommy that trip we were on our way. We'd made our way from rapid city South Dakota where we spent a few days because there was a great dog track. Track in rapid city, so we were there, and then we were in yellowstone in the next stop for us was Tahoe because we had to go to Tahoe. Where a buddy of ours hit his sister lived in truckee. California which is part of Lake Tahoe, and she was moving back to the east coast, and we had worked out that we're going to pick up her car, which was a Ford Escort I'll never forget it. We drove a Honda. A Honda accord out picked up her ford escort in Truckee California, and she said the same thing I'll pay for your gas and she gave us back then. You needed a gas card if you recall. And we had a gas card from her for the for that car, and then we had that car basically in we told her. If we take your car back, we may not be back until August and we weren't. We left in mid June. We were back in mid August. It was a two month trip. We spent a lot of time in northern California. My buddies uncle's place, which was in a rather beautiful location in. In that whole pebble beach area down there, but and then we spent probably a week to two weeks in southern California, but that was the first time I've got a mantra that was. That was a trip we were looking. Years ago, we were looking for the pictures of that trip and I think he's got him. I thought I had them in a box. But he must have them but Yeah, it was it was. It was a great trip that included a lot of gambling and then a forty eight hour. I think I've told you this before. A forty eight hour non stop trip. From L. A. TO DC. It was mid August we were done we. We're ready to get home. We were out of money. We had a gas card and maybe like fifty bucks, and we drove forty eight straight hours from La to DC forget. We left on a Friday at seven and arrived Sunday night ten o'clock East Coast time we to gas court. We had a gas card and we'd fifty bucks for some food along the way, and that was it. We took to our shifts, and we drove forty eight straight hours God's honest truth that you can make it from la DC and forty eight hours. that. Truckin Baby, oh. We were truck and. We were talking we'd had it. We'd been gone for a while at that point and we were ready to get home, plus we had no money, and basically the promise to our parents were that we wouldn't wire for money because they didn't really you know. They wanted my father wanted me working that summer. What do you mean you know? Get A job. No, we're GONNA try. We're going to see what happens with this thing it was it was it was it was a blast, but yes, there is. There's money in Montana brother. There's some real money in those places. That surprises me I didn't know that, and there's obviously a lot of you know. I mean real tough. Rural towns to that are probably really in trouble. Anyway? Well I like I like the series so far I wouldn't say it's a great series, but I liked it. I've been to Helena. That's the other place I've been to. Went there to I wanNA say with Smith's a supermarket chain. Back in the ninety s nice place to be from. Wouldn't be a great place to live in necessarily, but places like Bozeman. You know in a lot of those Ranch places in God. It's beautiful country out there I'll tell you what I mean. We're GONNA see what happens with our cities. You know because of covid nineteen in particular population density but a lot of those places probably seem pretty attractive to a lot of people right now. Probably. A quick word about hydrant than we'll get to some topics of the day. top performers in business and sports often attribute their success to their morning routine whether it's waking up early setting their goals for the day exercise or meditation, but not everybody's got the time to do it all with hydrant. You can jump start your mornings. Did you know that seventy five percent of US are walking around everyday life chronically dehydrated? Dehydrated were suffering needlessly from frequent headaches. Energy slumps in poor focus does it doesn't have to be that way? If you WANNA kick the coffee habit, but you're worried about your energy levels to avoid the morning sluggishness and that midday slump. You need to make sure you're hydrated. That's where hydrant comes in. They've created flavored electrolyte packets. You Mix directly into your water to make hydrating your body easy and delicious each rapid hydration. hydration mix has the four central electrolytes. Your body needs sodium, potassium, magnesium, and zinc. They are the ones that help you hydrate quickly and stay hydrated all day long. There's no synthetic coloring. There's no artificial sweeteners. The formula is Vegan and it's tested. It was developed by Oxford scientists to provide perfectly balanced efficient hydration. You can choose between three different flavors are a variety pack. Hydrant starts just a buck a packet for A. A thirty day supply. You can save even more with a monthly subscription, and for twenty five percent off your first order. GO TO DRINK HYDRANT DOT COM. That's drink and hydrant is spelled. H.. Y. D. R.. A. N.. T. Dot, com, use my Promo Code Sheehan S. H. E.. H., A. N. at Drink Hydra. Dot Com and you'll get twenty five percent off your first order. That's drink hydrant dot com slash Sheehan. All Right Tom here we're going to have a baseball season They never got it together. in terms of the economics looks like the owners are going to impose with. They're able to do contractually impose a season on the players. Sixty Games is what's being discussed, but I. The players need to sign off on all of the health and safety protocols and pledged to arrive at home stadiums by July first for a deal to actually happen, and that's supposed to happen at some point later today. Yeah basically what it looks like the Union has done. Is Trading Labor peace? A better deal for postseason money. more money on the table now. For the chance. To file a grievance. Where they be arguing that the owners did not go sheet in good faith, and they're convinced that they'll win and get I. Don't know five hundred million or more. Out of an award like that. I mean it really does it seem for a partner and you know they're. They've tried to be partners over the years. It's really city when you think about it for a partner to strategy is to say why can make a lot more money doing this? And and basically destroyed a product at the same time. You're talking about the players. Yeah yeah the players so on Saturday. I did a podcast on Saturday and one of the things in preparation for the podcast was there wasn't a deal done in. It looked like you know. The owners were stuck on sixty games in the players wanted seventy and I was like wow, I mean. Is this thing really knocking to get done because at ten games, and it's going to force the owners to impose their situation and night I went back in I didn't I'm not going to tell you that I read the whole March twenty sixth agreement, but I read this section of the March twenty sixth agreement that has been. The crux of the issue for the last three months on March twenty sixth, there was an agreement between the players and the owners on the parameters of a season that at that point was very likely going to not only be delayed but shortened. And the deal was for the owners to pay the players their full salaries on a pro rata basis, so there was one stipulation to the deal. It was a separate section of the agreement, and it said essentially for the Games to resume the commissioner's. Office and Union would discuss in good faith. The economic feasibility of playing games in the absence of spectators, or if games had to be played at substitute neutral sites that sections right there in the agreement that the owners and the players would sit back down, negotiate in good faith in the event that thirty to thirty five percent of their revenue stream, was gone because of no spectators in no homesites, etc, but really no spectators. And so for whatever reason I can't figure it out for whatever reason the players believed that that section didn't have anything to do with them. Taking a reduced salary in the event of no spectators and the owners of course feel that that's exactly what that section was. Put in there for that in the event. By the time we get to play if we can't generate thirty to thirty five percent of our normal revenue, because we can't get live spectators into the stadium. Well, then we're going to sit down and we're going to figure something out and you're gonNA. Participate in the downside of all of that. Look the owners if it came down five games, and they met in the middle at sixty five games. It's peanuts. Up the players the same thing. I'm sorry. The owners came up to sixty five games, and if the players went down to sixty five games, but I'll be honest with you. I can't imagine how any player would read that section and not think they were referring to payroll. The single biggest cost against one of the biggest revenue sources I don't get that, but the suit. Has Been about since day one. This, the the players thinking made enough to give up anything they had an agreement and the owner saying yeah, but we had this section that said if we didn't have spectators, we would sit down and work a different deal out because we're going to miss. Be Missing thirty to thirty five percent of our revenue. I blame both of them. Though Tommy is the math on the owners coming coming up to sixty five games works out to about four point two million dollars per team. That's nothing. I know I. Look I mean it's a shared blame and responsibility, but like I've said before and particularly on the union side. You've got to bad leaders. I don't think rob. Manfred is a very good leader as a commissioner. And I really think Tony Clark is over Max as a union boss. I mean except for gene upshaw. There's never been I. Don't think a player. WHO has run one of these unions? I mean certainly not baseball The famous Baseball Union Leader of the Cell Block Marvin Marvin Miller Marvin Miller right. And then Donald fear after that. and now and now and there was Michael Michael. Silver, I think I forget what is he Michael. Inbetween them. There was a guy who was very well liked. The respect is who died unfortunately. and Now it's Tony Clark who I think fifteen years. In the major leagues and I just think he's overmatched and it's. You've got bad leadership. Heading for things that are going to be even uglier. once this thing gets by them. Will you're right I? Mean in looking at this the the owners the owners could cancel the season altogether, but then there would be major grievances. They're going to what appeared to be the. largest number of games without an expanded postseason, which is sixty. There was a discussion that they could go as low as forty eight, and but but almost everything. I've read these players. They may go back to work, and we'll get to the health stuff here. In a second, they may go back to work, but there's a grievance forthcoming, and this is really this is basically a player's going back to work under duress for the lack of a better description They're not happy about it. The owners aren't happy about it and the difference when all was said and done is ten games. Because if they had come to an agreement on say, sixty, five, instead of sixty or seventy counterproposal, they would have gotten expanded playoff format from the players, and it would have worked out much better not not not to mention you would've had labor peace again for the lack of a better description. They have an agreement currently. It's really mind boggling, and now like this should have been the. This is what I was GonNa say to you. This should have been the easy part. The tough part is baseball getting the players comfortable that they're going to take care of them. Health wise and. I always said that the harder part. Harder part, but it's it's so much harder than even the first time you said it because of all the increased in cove in one, thousand, nine hundred. Infections nationwide and now all of the positive tests within organizations like the phillies the other day. And I I just think you know you're going to have enough players. With the fear planted in their minds, and that's their minds and their wives minds. About you know undertaking something like this I just. I, don't see how. I mean. I don't see how baseball when if they get lucky and started season I. Don't see how they ended. And if this is what baseball is still with now, what the healthy nfl could to be feeling. What's in September and October? I mean it's crazy I, mean you really is? Unpredictable. You're making plans for something that you have absolutely. No, it's it's. It's like trying to fly to the moon, and you're about to send the first rocket up. You know and you have no idea for to work, but it fol- people. Yes It's like the first time somebody tried ski jumping like. How do you do that for the first time where you're doing flips in the air well, we'll see what happens. Nobody. Any of this is gonNA work they don't they. Don't you know I I? Think I mentioned this to you on Thursday because I, forget when I had this conversation with Howard Gutman who listened to the podcast and Was Obama's. Belgian ambassador and he's been a listener to the show. And he and I had this long conversation, because he's working with a company that spans in his working on a scanner to scan for Covid, nineteen something that would be put at every single stadium and arena, but anyway to make a long story short one of the things he said to me is they're basically all going into this? hoping they don't have. They can't possibly predict what will happen. They're hoping baseball basketball is the NHL is to get through this season, so then get their money from the TV networks without somebody adding seriously ill, but the first time somebody gets seriously ill, or these games are so compromised because of the loss of players dude due to positive tests. it's Right now, especially, in the more and more, we get closer to this thing, and as the positive tests keep going up nationwide in spots that you thought weren't going to be hot spots in the warm weather was gonna take care of all this and we're seeing all the increased infections, and a lot of that is probably because of the increase testing. You know I'm not suggesting that it isn't clemson tested twenty-three pop players the other day. Positive Texas the. How are they possibly right now? Going to get to a football season where they're going to have enough players that aren't in quarantine to play games. I don't know, Kevin. I don't know how they're going to do it. I mean I'm very skeptical of their ability to be able to do it. And it's and you know we can argue and like. You pointed out some of the rise in the corona virus numbers are certainly related to war testing. You know that's obvious. But? It's the fear factor as well. The reality is is is is. Is Important, but people's fears is what you're dealing with here. you can show them the numbers that say well you know you're twenty five year old Guy Your chance of of of dying from that is infinitesimal, you know. but the fears. The fear. It's what you're dealing with. Those fears I think have not diminished. I know what you've been saying. All right I'm taking that into consideration I think. That the last week. Look there's a couple things at Work Inc. including what you've said all along and including what we've also talked about before. especially with the NBA in particular where you've got twenty two teams in several teams. Probably you know it's a sport. Where even if you make the playoffs, you're not going to win a title and you're talking about. You know going from all of these freedoms in luxuries into a quarantined isolated. Walt Disneyworld setting Which isn't you know? The convenience of that is also you know. A reality that they're starting to deal with, so it's everything it's on on the fear with respect to health situation increasing. Maybe it would was always going to be there, but we've also seen a spike in positive tests, especially with athletes will get Novak Djokovic. You know testing positive today. You know this is. This is a pretty controversial thing with him. Because he held this charity event in Croatia and you know he's an anti vaccine guy and he was, he was critical early on about the. The US handling and whether or not he'd come back to the US and play you know a tournament because it was being handled so poorly and he didn't get tested and yet players around him. We're getting we're getting. We're testing positive. And then he went back to Serbia tested positive as did his wife. Anyway we're seeing it every day as teams get back into less of a hunker down, situation were reading more and more about the positive testing, so there is an increased Concern anxiety over the virus again in the likelihood of being infected I. think that's part of it Tommy. Is that you know a month ago? They may have said well look the infection. Rates are even low, and by the time we get to where we're going to be. It's where they're gonNA. have more figured out while the infections aren't going away. They're not diminishing and and it looks like these teams convene players in their own mind are going to think there's a pretty good chance I'll get infected. There primarily starting to think that more now than they were a month ago. Is what I'm saying. Yes, I think you're right. I think the fear factor because we're you know because of the way media is today. you know you think everything you read or everything you hear is the worst thing in the world. And we're we're we're. Inundated with information, and and you know if you went some social media It was like so you know like you, said Clemson. Positive tests. Alabama positive tests. Texas. Positive Tests spring training facility in Pittsburgh pirates positive that wherever they've been. humilate. Accumulated. I! Mean you know why listen I'm not being sexist. Why? They're going to have a big impact on this. This is what I said. All along in kitchens and living rooms. These discussions are going to take place. And it's it's it's. It's the great unknown. We're dealing with real unknown. I mean you know it's funny because I mean the reality is we deal with the with the unknown every day. But. We've never been hit with it in the face. Lie At least that I remember like we have been right now. And yet the truth is even though we don't know I'll concede we don't really know. And maybe the virus becomes more virulent and more lethal to young healthy people without underlying diseases, but right now the probability of a career ending injury is so much greater. For a young healthy, no underlying diseased athlete then is getting sick from covid nineteen. And now you're right, and they'd have no problem going back and risking career ending injury now the big story from yesterday is that Davis Bretons from the wizards is opting out the NBA players have until I think it's close of business tomorrow to opt out without penalty without punishment the NBA's offering that up to to the players of the twenty two teams that are going to restart the season in Orlando, and `Davis Batons was having an incredible season. You know. The Wizards decided not to trade him at the trade deadline when they probably would have gotten a first. First Round pick maybe a protected first round pick who knows, but they would have gotten a first round. Pick for the for this guy for the season. He's having and for those of you, not paying attention, because most of you aren't paying attention to the wizards. Batons came from San Antonio where he was sort of a sharp shooting, role player and he's having a career. Year is second on the team in scoring behind Bradley beal, averaging fifteen and a half points a game. He's one of the best long range shooters in the game any six ten. Ten six eleven in two twenty five like this guy is got a Lotta game. A lot of game I had Tommy Sheppard on the show. I had a Scott Brooks on the show, and I asked them both about protons. The one of the reasons they didn't trade them, is they they they think he is a huge part of a wizards team with John Wall and Bradley beal and really hot Chamara. They think it's a really good team. That protons is a big part of that, so they're going to take the chance. They can sign him as as an. An unrestricted free agent which is why didn't trade them now? In order to be truthful, they could've traded him and then signed him anyway. You could've gotten first runner, but I think that they felt like they were making a commitment to him and telling him how much the you know, he meant to them. He has decided to opt out. He's decided to opt out of the final eight games in. There could be playoff after that in part because he doesn't want to risk it. It's all about protecting his money all about protecting his money, he's. GonNa, sign. Assign a huge deal and Evan forty-eight, who is a player with the Orlando Magic? Said sent out two tweets. or you know a attached to the baton story. This is what's wrong with the NBA nowadays. If you think it's okay to sit and watch your teammates play while you're perfectly healthy. It says a lot about you. And he's. That's very critical of batons. No, not going back. You know with Bradley beal and with Ryuhachi Mariah and you know. Troy Brown Junior, and and the rest of the rest of the players can remember who the team now it's been so long at the. Smith and John McCain me. My God Isaiah Thomas in there anymore. I forget who's even on the roster at this point but anyway. I mean on one level I think. that. I'd rather see him play, but if I'm him, here's the thing if they played the end of the regular season as scheduled without cove in nineteen like no, no nothing that happened the last four months happened. It may have been possible that the team would have sat him for the final six or seven games anyway just to protect him because they wouldn't have had anything to play for now. Technically they have something to play for her, but he's not going to play now. They gotTA MAKE UP TWO GAMES ON ORLANDO TO GET INTO A A two day playoff format, you know a tournament just to get to the eighth seed to have the right to get blown out Pie Milwaukee. But you know this, is he's I don't Begrudge I. Don't think writes a guy. A personal decision like this. I don't I. DON'T BEGRUDGE THEM AT ALL I! Don't I. Don't put Progress Him I. Don't enough? I think if I think if I were his agent, I would have suggested suggested it and I bet the team doesn't have a problem with this. He's had two knee injuries. So you know it's they're not gonNA. Probably have the proper. GET READY FOR REGULAR SEASON Games. I'm I'm okay with it I'm not. It's not up to me. Did you. See Your Guy Trevor Rees is opting out. I did, but you read the reason why right? Yeah Yeah! He's got essentially. Absolutely. Okay well, anything he does is okay with me, but no, but no seriously tra- Trevor Rees. If you miss this, he's opting out as well. The Blazers are only a game out of the eight spot or something like that I. Forget exactly what it is, but he's involved in a custody case over his twelve year old son and this next month is the opportunity for him to have visitation period with his son. which I guess was probably scheduled for this month. It was supposed to be his off time. And, so he's not. You know. He's not giving up on that month with his twelve year old son to go and try to chase the eight seed with Portland I think I understand that I bet. Most of the seats understand that, don't you think? I would think no I certainly understand it yeah. I mean. So, weird thing that I mean I I have a feeling Tommy that. He. Is a pretty good chance I. Don't know at least a one in four chance that ten years from now we look back and twenty. Twenty was the year that got canceled. Every sport cove in nineteen year. Every sport didn't make it none of I. Baby, right. I think you're right. We're already seeing like public events. Outdoor event scheduled for the fall are being canceled left and right. It's like when you look back during some of the war years, and you see you know. The season wasn't played because we were in a war and these guys were going off to fight a war. I mean it's it's. It's a lot different, but it's the same thing. It's really think about this Tommy. WHO. We may not have real sports. I mean forget I know it's insignificant. Frivolous compared to important things I understand that, but we may have a season with no where you don't have life football. How did this happen? They're playing. I know I know. I don't know maybe maybe you know maybe over. Yeah, I think they're all GonNa. Try just one. said a one in four chance I didn't get to one in four chance now. I just I think I think it's much stronger. They don't finish. I think they'll all start. Just hope we. We just need to find the medications once you get some medicine. That's that that helps us out. Then you know you've got something to feel. Like. It's like a safety net. Okay? I got infected Oh. You know what I'm actually sort of getting sick here. Let me take this and I'm GONNA be all. Unless I'm only old. Me? Let's listen. I'm Tommy where the viruses. For me since it since it arrived. Now speaking of speaking of the virus, and this is a very serious sad no. Okay so I just WANNA. Make that clear. The remember Alan Lou. DC City administrator. Very influential guy in the city. What helped you know oversaw the rebuilding of the Convention Center. That's park and stuff like that which is named? Allen, Lou L. E. W., no, I actually don't remember. He was a very influential figure in. Getting that part-built bill getting the new convention center built. He was the city administrator When this and you know help, bring the city from it's. From its corruption bankruptcy years into its slush years. he's a sti- from Corona virus complications. He was sixty nine degen he was. I met him a few times. very sharp, very nice man. He was. I think working on the Faculty of school up in New York. He wasn't on Council, was he? No, he was the city administrator, so he was higher higher help John Irish guy. You know but very influential, very important guy in the resurgence of Pc over to pass fifteen twenty years. Tom Sherwood from Channel Four. NBC Four Washington broke that news. So. I mean he was sixty nine. You know I thought he was younger than that. So So, what else do we have today? well? I wanted to talk a little bit about a column. I have come out in tomorrow's Washington Times? Be Online later today. About George Preston Marshall and the Redskins name. Okay I know you've talked about this. and I. This is my first chance so right about it and basically you know once I got through them. You know taking away the Marshall Memorial What's the right thing to do and doing away with the George? Preston Marshall Concord on on the main concourse at Fedex field and rename it after bobby. Mitchell all all the right moves. the Mitchell. The Mitchell move is so so overdue and I. I wrote years ago that if Snyder had been smart. When he first bought the team and inherited the racial legacy that the team had. That the smart thing would have been, too, if done so basically embrace. The Bobby Mitchell build a statue outside of Fedex field that they wouldn't tear down. Hopefully, for Bobby Mitchell and just try to diffuse. Some of the Baggage that came with the purchase of the team by embracing the African American connection to the team as a result of Bobby Mitchell well, it took snyder twenty years that and Bobby Mitchell passed away in April, and now you know they're gonNA. Retire his number, and all that and all. That's connected to the Marshall thing. Marshall was the one who traded for Bobby Mitchell when he was forced to integrate the redskins in nineteen, sixty one when he wanted to move into the new stadium. But I also pointed out that for those people expecting the the last remnants of the Marshall Legacy the name to fall I said, don't hold your breath. That's not happening anytime soon. Why. Well, well, for one reason. We've talked about this and you were right about this a couple years ago. I thought that and I lost. I lost the betsy on this that the name was going to change. They had the Oneida nation to Sinoe boss Ray. halladay brighter cowbridge. She's very high. And he had a lot of money and a lot of corporate influence and I thought well. This is the guy that that that movement needs to get behind it in order to force the NFL force. The redskins saints name. While the the poll that came out and thousand sixteen in the Washington Post. where show that nine out of ten native Americans weren't offended by the name, the same exact result from the anniversary poll eleven twelve years earlier that killed. That tells the the momentum that they had going, and then I was became convinced that that's the name is not just not going to be changed, and now you know getting swept up in the black lives matter movement. The name has been has been brought into that and it's there's a revival of the movement to change the name, but you have talked about this and I agree with you is the financial damage to dance. Snyder or saints in the name Redskins to something else is something that he he can't. He can't endure. It would be devastating. News would be I mean I. Know it's hard enough to get people to go to the game. You're down. You're down to the core group. Of redskins fan now and these are the people that love the teeth and love the name. Your and they don't and you're saying that name. You're going to drive them away. And then nobody's coming to the game and there's no way the NFL was going to force her to do that. They're not gonNA force an owner, so make a move that's gonNa cost him money and cost them money. Yes it's so. I forget if I talked about this on the podcast and radio the other day, but you and I talked about Thursday doing this and we never got to it, but. I don't. I always known that I just remind me because I want to go back to George Preston Marshall, bobby, Mitchell, after this, but I I am. I've always laughed at those people who suggested that this would have been some sort of financial boon to change the name over the years. They don't know anything. About brand and an and brand loyalty, I mean you don't see fiercely loyal customer bases. To brands you don't see. Those brands changed significant parts of their brand names logos, mascots. Whatever when you do that, you really Risk Valuation Hits You Risk Your Business. It you've been talking about millions verses potentially billions evaluation millions in in short term short term gain for buying New Jersey's and buying the new stuff versus a big valuation hit now with that said the redskins reached a new rock bottom at the end of last year. That you know even we couldn't Zena -sarily I mean ten thousand people in in a seventy five thousand. Thousand seat stadium where half the people. There aren't even rooting for for their home team. There was a level of disgust with this organization from most people. There's a percentage of you. Trust me, Tommy and I know this you are. You've never been off put by anything that they've done. And you never will, and you are very much in the minority of the fan base, and you see that by the deterioration deterioration of the crowds and the television numbers I. Mean they've completely you know sunk to to new low level so. I actually I think I mentioned this on radio the other day for the first time in terms of how much it would cost them to change everything about the name and the brand, etc, they're probably at a point in which it makes more. It makes more sense now than ever before Tommy because they have sunk the value of the brand. I know what Forbes says they're worth. You know informed says they're worth that because if you got a new owner in here and they did things in a different way in a market like ours, that is huge with a football. You know interest like we have here in D. C. You could turn it around very quickly you know, and and all the sudden be worth three four billion dollars, and by the way those values are basically. it's it's essentially a guess as to what someone would be willing to pay it. They don't. The redskins have lost a lot of top line revenue the last couple of years, but they're in a league that benefits every single one of the teams, because they share equally thirty two teams divided by the the money divided by thirty two teams. Anyway, it's a long way. Way of getting to if they ever felt the pressure to do it, and they actually considered it. This would probably be the time to do it because they're at such an all time. Low with respect to the the customer base. They've lost so many customers Tommy because of who they are and what they've done on the field, and how they've conducted themselves off the field. That the fiercely loyal customer base that I used to refer to which is one of the reasons that the brand is valued at where it is. The Lot of those people have checked out for good. They've checked out for good. And now you may be trying to attract a whole new audience, and let's be honest about this of all a younger audience. That's very progressive. That probably isn't even considering your team. Because of the name regardless of what the what the true facts are about this, what whether or not native Americans have a problem with it or don't have a problem with it. The perception the narrative is that it's the N. Word, which of course we know it isn't and in this climate. They may have a chance of getting in gaining. Customers if they changed the name I again, I'm trying to shorten this up in a minute. Shorten it up now. If they ever going to do it, now's probably by far and away the biggest opportunity that they they would have to do it with the with the lowest downside to doing it. I don't know I look. Recommend knowing and I know young people aren't going NFL game periods. So high, don't nobody's watching rally either. But but I don't see this groundswell of young people off saying Oh now they've finally changed the name now I'm GonNa go. They're not going to NFL game, says it is. That's an industry problem and not just the redskins problem. I just think that you're watching it. They would lose. They would lose that core fan base. I think a lot of those people and they can't. You can't afford to lose anybody. Nobody's going to change their mind and go back because the name is Shane. I'm not recommending it what I'm saying to you is. What, they've got less to lose today than they did. Two years ago or four years ago or years ago, they Dan Snyder has single, handily ruined one of the great brands in all of sports the last twenty years. He's ruined it ease. It is not according to Forbes worth any less, and it keeps increasing in value, but so does every NFL franchise. Franchise and a big market NFL franchise with an untapped which you could almost call like the redskin fan base untapped now because it hasn't been served in so long That's why the value is where it is. I don't think you know I think it's still a risk. It's just less of a risk, but back to the polling again, so Look at twenty sixteen Washington Post Poll. You Know I. I've seen everything that people have sent me about the poll from recently from Stanford, Michigan, you know that that reflected still a minority of amount of native Americans, but much higher than ten percent percentage of native Americans that have a problem with it, and just like all of these polls Tommy. If you don't like the results you confront, you can find problems with the methodology. That was the problem with the two thousand and four was outdated. It wasn't done the right way. And then twenty sixteen here comes the Post poll by the way conducted by a newspaper that was hoping for the opposite result than it actually got, which gave the result, even more credibility for a lot of people, but the people that didn't like those results said the methodology was wrong. It was a it was a phone based poll where they were relying on the person that said that they identified as native American to be to be honest, and then this newest poll is online, but it's sort sorta skewed younger individuals. There are some issues with that one look bottom line is. I don't think that you know There's this incredible clamoring from native Americans. I haven't seen proof of that to change the name, but I do believe that the last three to four weeks have produced a total resurgence from from people in desiring the name to be changed in now along with. Falling left and right, this is another statue that needs to fall and people are writing about it in our good friend. Berries Ver- Lugo who I loved dearly and I think he's brilliant, wrote about it, and he said some things in that story that I still think are are a problem. I still think my idea. Tommy and I'm not sure anybody else shares. It may be somebody else had it I. I don't care, but language evolves okay in so the dictionary defined racist term that Redskins. Redskins is you know refers to a word that was used in a way in which the dictionary defines it over seventy five years ago. It's time for a second, non pejorative non derogatory definition. Redskins Noun the team that played pro football in. Washington DC I think that that would solve a lot of problems. Not with everybody but Tommy, the other thing I thought of is goodell. We've been seeing him. Speak out more than ever recently. We don't even know if it's been with owners support. On on lots of different things, including capper, nick and kneeling in all of that. I. Would it shock you if goodell came out in the next week? You know and said I think it's time for the Redskins to consider changing their name. Yes? It would okay. It would shock me. I, WanNa, make it clear I. don't care what they're called. No. I, mean I I'm listening. It'd be fine with me I. Don't particularly care so but I just don't think that I just think that that even with health low. The redskins franchise it sunk in terms of fan support. I don't see them thinking that Snyder could be the guy to bring them back. Go matter what their name. Tell you what we won't get. And if we do, it would really be revealing of intelligence. WE'RE NOT GONNA get another statement from the owner that says never ever in capital letters. On, the name you know if he had handled all of this with a bit more finesse. and thought through listen. Let's be open minded to this. Maybe you know the idea of a second Dick, because the dictionary definition is the walk off moment for all the people that want the name changed its there one thing well. It's in the dictionary. It's defined as an insensitive term. It's dictionary defined racist. What else do you need to know? It's the N. word well I mean. Not The N. Word is we know I mean that's the most still the most ridiculous comparison, and it bothers me when it gets compared to that, because it's not a reasonable discussion. When you when you exaggerate to that level, we still have native American high schools in this country that have redskins school nickname. We don't have one primarily black high school. That's got the N. word. Word as their team nickname. There's no Washington Post that says nine out of ten blacks say that the N. Word doesn't really bother him. I mean they're. They're just not comparable, so we gotta stop it with that but I. it would be nice to see him. You know at least steer clear of being defiant on it. Even if he is, he shouldn't be defiant publicly. I don't think you'll see that. Not Anymore there are a lot of people that believe this is. This is coming soon more than ever. Before that original bet. We have I remember right now. Who is for a was? We must have had the bet and twenty fourteen, because it was by the end of two thousand sixteen. You were convinced the name would be changed. I wanted to just go back real quickly to. George Preston Marshall, thing. The Bobby Mitchell thing from the other day. I'm thrilled and I talked about this on the podcast without you the other day. I'm thrilled. The Bobby Mitchell's jerseys retired and I went through. You know the jerseys that I think should be retired I think the red skins should I'm ready for the Redskins to to retire jerseys? I think that they can do that and they're seven of them to me. That are absolute. No brainers and you just do it and you know and you go from there, but it's too bad. That Bobby Mitchell's. Jersey was retired when he was alive. That's number one This was a special person to. He was such a warm decent person, and was so significant in the NFL so significant and this organization, which was the last organization in the League to integrate forced by as you said the federal government who owned the land where the stadium were. DC, stadium was built to do it they. They traded Ernie Davis, who eventually had leukemia passed away before he ever played one down. four Bobby, Mitchell and Bobby Mitchell became the first black player to play for the Redskins, and by the way his career without being a significant, you know integrator of the last integrated team. His career alone on production was a hall of fame career. Like this guy. She would would have been worthy of having a Jersey retired anyway. He's a great player. But there are a couple of things number one why the hell was George Preston Marshall's statue still up at RFK after all these years. I mean I, understand. that. I mentioned this I didn't know it was still up there, and that's on me, and maybe that's part of what we're. All learning here is to be you know we should know that and we should advocate for you. Know it being taken down to have an overt racist like judge Preston Marshall Statue out in front of RFK, stadium you know is really you know. I think a lot of this statue stuff is is really crazy right now, but in overt racist or an overt confederate you know from the civil war and I thought this. That's what it was about to begin with. It's obviously morphed into much more than that here over the last week or so, but I can't believe his statue was still up there and I can't believe that that floor that level at Fedex fuel was still named after him. I know that's stunning I. Never realized that in our. Fedex feel every Sunday. For, years. and. I just never put the two together, yeah! It's. It's it goes hand in hand with this organization handing out Bobby Mitchell's number two Leonard Stevens in two, thousand three, which is what spurrier did and you know it went past? No everybody picked up on Sonny's Jersey been being given to Shane, Matthews nobody picked up on Bobby Mitchell's number being given out the Leonard Stevens. That was a disgrace. I. Remember talking about it at the time. I wasn't in radio. I remember talking about it as a fan and being totally surprised that the organization had done that. And they apologize for it, but that was the rift that ended the relationship between Bobby. Mitchell the organization and he was such a class act. He didn't wanNA bring Leonard Stevens into the middle of it because it wasn't Stevens fault he was. And, so he never, he never really made a big stink out of it, and even his family with with the Jersey, being retired. What class all of their quotes from his wife to his daughter to his son about all this? I don't know it maybe because he he resented. No, DOUBT No doubt, they I mean. Once, sunny once spurrier gave Sonny's Jersey. Remember to Shane Matthews. There was this incredible and. Snyder it's another. It's sort of proof in something. I've always felt which is Snyder claims to have been this devout hardcore fan his whole life as he wasn't the kind of fan that a lot of us. Were you know he just? He just wasn't I don't think he really was into it. Like some of us were when we were kids and teenagers but he had the opportunity because. Because of wealth to become one of the cool kids, after many years of probably not being anywhere close to that, and he bought the team, and as part of a team, he talked about how you know. His Dad had taken him two games, and he was this incredible fan who didn't know about number forty nine, and didn't even know about number nine until there was an outcry over it. Really you're going to give away Sonny's number two Shane Matthews. And giveaway. Bobby Mitchell's number two Leonard Stevens. That whole that whole stretch there was. Was Wrong Anyway. When's your statue coming down? Well here. I want drive. Let me try off the boy. Okay, okay, now. you made a point of ridiculing me. And this is about politics. You made a point of ridiculing me when I suggested that Trump might not leave office if he loses the election, right? and of course after that we had a week's worth of articles by people much smarter than you. Who suggested the same thing human yesterday? I. Suggest that all the people there. You weren't the first one to suggest it. You and Bill Maher and Michael Moore. A lot of people have been suggesting that they're going to continue to suggest that, but go ahead. Trump already declare young. That the like twenty twenty elections rigged. Setting stage for this. Let me, let me introduce this possibility to you. What do you think the chances are that Donald? Trump and joe by getting a fistfight during the debates? In in Biden basement. No! No, if they have debate, are the. Don't you think with buying? They're gonNA. They're gonNA. Hope that their virtual. No let's get with the program here. Okay, fight on stage. The on on that. Are. Long shot. They're not going to get into a fistfight. Just now they're not going to have to send in the police to pull them out of sixteen hundred Pennsylvania Avenue. That's not going to happen either. I think there's a chance again the fistfight. Well Biden. Got, the temper right by your Biden Scott. This short fuse, tough guy ability. At least we think of him that way or we used to him. If. He does that circle and stuff that he did with Hillary. During their at the bank that would be cried vital Kurt vital. Turn Around Slam I. Have and I said this to you before. How is it and maybe it's happened and we just don't know about it. How is it with somebody that is so has such a Boli tendency, and then on top that is so limited intelligence wise. How is it that somebody like trump being in his many big meetings in new? York over his many years professional years. How is it that he didn't get his ass kicked in several times. Let alone once. How is it that? In New York didn't come over a boardroom table and beat the living crap out of him at some point. You know. Maybe he suffered, and then we think. Give him credit for. Tommy. Tommy people that live to take on the tough guy in New, York. I mean you're gonNA. Tell me that somebody you know. The D- got bullied in in a meeting or looked at this dude and realized what a despicable human being is didn't go. Across the table after after you call him a name. I just can't believe that that didn't happen, but we have it at this point. Yeah I would think so. I would think so. It is surprising that this guy has hasn't gotten beaten up. Right but maybe. Unless he's walked into every meeting with security people. That may be true, but still I know a lot of dudes. The cared about that they would've. They would've gotten to him. Somehow someway. I saw him a Yankee, stadium, when I was covering a playoff, he was sitting in the box plexiglass, separating us right next to me. He didn't have any security around them. I mean. Tom There are people I know that just cheating in golf. Those stories are legendary with this guy. WHAT A serial cheater! He is in the game of golf. You know if there was any real money involved in any of these matches. It's amazing. He didn't get his ass kicked after one of those I don't know. What was your so biden versus trump fistfight odds I don't know, but that would be I mean. This would go hand-in-hand with your September October. October tumultuous you know, run up to the election period which you know I don't disagree with I. Think we could be headed for a lot of that in the fall. I just think anything is possible. Yeah. Anything is as possible. It's funny how? He just you know. I don't WanNa. Go there. I don't WanNa go there. It's surprising to me that as much as he mouths off on twitter. That the Seattle situation actually hasn't been solved by lot quote. Law and order closed quote. That would be one of those Ri- would think at this point. There'd be an overwhelming desire by most normal people to end experiment, but apparently. Aren't we not? Not. did we cover it today? I. Think we did all right. We're done for the day. Don't forget him on radio. Six to nine am every morning on the team. Nine Eighty, also ninety five point nine FM. The team, ninety APP, the team, nine eighty dot com so listen in then as well. I enjoy the day back tomorrow.
Ep. 196: A Sea of Bones
"Our next hunt turns your phone into fully-functioning. GPS you hunting specific maps for all fifty states with detailed public and private boundaries. Landowner names hunting district's and more. It's even got a weather thing on. This was kind of crucial for us. Tonight we're on a mule deer hunt where everything was happening super late at night. And it's got a whether thing you hit the weather thing. It shows you sunrise sunset so you can do your thirty minute deduction ever find out what legal shooting ours is. A great addition mark customize and share way points and tracks on your maps and easily sync between devices assist. Check the damn weather use code meter to receive twenty percent off your first premium or elite membership at on x maps dot com slash hunt. Go to your APP store or maps dot Com Slash Hunt and save twenty percent with code meter also. You should like when you use an annex. You can download the maps when you got like a cell signaller signaller Wi fi you download the maps. Then when you're out in the woods running around us put your phone on airplane mode and run the map off. GPS like a good new phone on your battery lasts for a couple of days because it's not like searching for a signal the whole time that's important as you better know by now season eight of meter is is fresh and new up on net flicks and if you watch that you see is running all over the damn place in Shanez timberline embarrassed to boots. Now those boots it's a part of a whole broader family boots at Hsin as their performance mountain boots and their whole family mountain dew made of the absolute highest quality leathers others immaterial on earth and features sneeze dual density polyurethane mid sole for uncompromising quality and durability their boots roots have flex rating from one to four. And you pick these different flex ratings to sort of accommodate your needs and preferences besides that they're available a wide range of insulated aided in uninstigated models you can go from zero gram Unin slated to six hundred gram installation and they have roller bearing an easy lock hardware which which make consistent lays up a breeze. Try out a pair schnee today use the Promo code meet. Meat at checkout and you'll score ten percent off off your order at Hsin as dot com that's S. C. H. N. E. E. S. dot com. Check out their entire family boots. Hsin as DOT COM offer recode ten percent off media. PODCAST gas coming in you. Shirtless severely vote bitten in in my case underwear listening. Talk DMITRIEVNA podcast. You can't predict anything presented advice on X.. Hunt creators of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters download the hunt APP from the I tunes or Google play store nor you stand with on ex super special guest Larry. Todd Larry Tell everybody what you do. Well I'm trained as an anthropologist anthropologist archaeologist But actually what I do more than that is something called Taff on Emmy which is the study of what happens to dead things so My real passion when I started archaeology was looking at Bison kill sites and to study a bison kill site. You can't just look at the patterns you see when you excavated. They didn't say well people did. This and people did that and people did the other. You've got to look at what the carnivores did after the people left the site and what the decay of of the the bones did to dispersal of things to what the rate of deposition does to what bones are preserved and looking at all those sorts of things that happen after the death of an I animal until it enters a laboratory is the field of. What do you say? Kill sites mean places where where ancient people killed large groups of animals. I is specialized mostly in big bison kill sites but I also did a couple of mammoth sites and did sites where people suspected that horses have had been killed and a variety of things sort of a taff optimist for higher. Can you break down the word. It's it's from the Greek and Taff is death and honesty is study of so a word that similar that you may have heard is epitaph words. That are on a tombstone. Yeah so it's the original definition was the study of death and burial. You got your epitaph figured out yet. No I don't know Oh man I don't have one yet. They're going. I didn't think of it either. Already knows what he wants his tee-shirt to once you you got to wear it on your shirt and then having put on tombstone so Tafoya Emmy Tat right yet. So what's a large kill site at. What point did you get at? What point do you get interested? Oh I get interested With a single animal but the ones that you focus on the most because there's the highest I information potential are ones that have anywhere from ten to. I've worked on sites where there's close to eight hundred to one thousand animals. No single sort of all the cliff jumps clift jump. Well one of the sites that spent about eleven years on the site in on the Nebraska national forest called the Hudson bankside. And there's probably eight hundred hundred by some there from the little bit. We saw it and one of the interesting questions there and on many of the early signs the pay got killed when about ten thousand years ago. Okay and one of the interesting questions is how they died and whether it was a kill and there's a whole series of things like that to go into the taff army step one. Is you find a bunch of bones in his the natural death or is at cal site But one of the interesting things about you know your question about jumping over a cliff is many of the early sites. The early sites North America the ones from about thirteen thousand tell about eight thousand art associated with jumps. They hadn't started started that they strategy. Maybe they hadn't started it or maybe they didn't need it. I think that Probably early peoples in the America were such specialists Seles in Bison behavior that they probably made our. PhD's knew it is. Zoology and ecology seem like kindergartners of knowing what Meissner can and do given any given situation the the cloud. Cover the bugs the wind direction. When it's last rained they could probably use the bison behavior her to help get them into a place where they could kill them regardless whether there was a jump there and some of them are in big open areas with no cliffs? No Arroyo No obvious sort of containment and they probably at that time they're probably encountering groups that haven't had a lot of human pressure. She perhaps. Yeah very definitely they probably. They're the animals that they were preying upon would have been used to the way wolves would hunt them or other social predators. Were all of sudden you have this different. Sort of Social Predator shows up on the scene and something we might talk about a little further on is one of the things I'm really worrying about now is thinking about how that animal memory of Killa Vance feeds into how you can hunt hunt in a region and how often you can work through in mountain areas where I'm working now. How often you effectively run a mountain sheep trap? Do you have to wait till the next generation of mountain sheep shows up. They're going to be somebody there in the her. That's going to you know. Don't go up that Ridge if these sort of condition guys. You've yeah the wait till their memory failed before he came back which is as an anthropologist. It's both sort of interesting and almost heretical to talk about Out that because if you're talking about memory information being passed down from and stored in the group from one generation to the next you're talking about what we usually classifies culture and we usually when we talk culture usually say that's ours you know. Humans are defined by culture. And everybody else Nana. My Nana doesn't have it and so I'm trying to really think about in terms of hunting and landscapes of multiple cultures colliding human cultures versus versus the Game Animal Cultures Information. Have you spent much time talking to Kaufman the migration researcher a little bit I'm working more with. Arthur Middleton. Who did the elk migration stuff yeah? I'm cody yellow. Knew there was interesting about their work work with tracking collars on modern animals as you see What like what level of exposure like like a newborn has like when you have a fawn or calf hit the ground and it is taken somewhere by? It's mother it's ability to retain that information and after the death of the mother right like how how well it can retrace routes. An hot is pretty stunning man. As a matter of fact I'm spending next week in Berkeley with Middleton Littleton. Okay let's talk about how we can better integrate My archaeological data from the high ovation's I'm working in some of the same areas that he has the GPS caller data on on In terms of answering questions that he's interested in like What's the longterm fidelity of these migration quarters? How long do they go back? In time and I'm interested in whether the corridors that the elk are using today My My expectation is they're using sort of the least cost path across the landscape That may have been used by ELK. We choose my bet it may have been used by bison that are going being in high country In the past mountain sheep and humans so the out migration corridors. Maybe giving us a clue to what the past archaeology. The past human landscape with high elevation was and the archaeology can also help The the wildlife people Potentially see how long those quarters have been there. Yeah let me let me just tell people go speed you start talking about the main site you can talk about that one. Pick sort of your favorite site light. The you'd think like a big kill site From from the from the very old big kill site and lay out what the body of evidence this is that you wind up working with to ascertain what happened there. Okay because I would just automatically think like wouldn't it. Just be that you look for spear points and if there's spear points than most people killing them now explain how it gets more complicated. That was sort of the assumption. I probably will stick with Hudson. May Be great some recent sites in the news like there's a big mammoth site down in Mexico. That was on my list. I gotta ask you about okay. So the up till about nineteen seventy late nineteen eighteen sixty s when people approached the big kill sites starting with folsom right on up through the others. The sites themselves were pretty much. Thought aww as being Corey's The you'd extract the bones from for exhibit. Then you'd also extract the the the point from but they didn't really do a lot of work to kind of you. Try and tie the two together coming in sift all the dirt outlook for during folsom they wash with water from around. Nineteen in the late nineteen sixties or research down. In Colorado named Joe Ben Wheat excavated site called the Olsen. Check sight out what he did there. That was sort of remarkable as he started mapping and recording every bone in the site. Sort of like you have a jigsaw puzzle. And he came up with the idea and he tried to do the analysis that the site itself the bone bed itself is a key artifact that in looking at the distribution of where the cows are and the cavs are they are and which oh how the Carcass Zor cut up and dispersed in. That sort of can give you a tremendous amount of information. So and then several years after that George Risen from Wyoming followed. Up with a site called the Casper site where he kind of took perspective into account as well. The site is an artifact and then tried to plug in Bison Paleo Ecology how they lived on the landscape. What had happened after it explained your term whether the site is an artifact act okay We all when we think of you you talked about you find the points with the bones. We all know that nice piece of stone. That's been the definition of an artifact artifact humanly produced humanly created. Like if you could pick up a if you pick up a bone and it has become an ancient bone own. Yes the bone the minute you has marks on it. It's an artifact and the idea of the bone bed is artifact. Is that just like the individual flake scars on a a flake. Piece of stone has to be looked at altogether to understand it. You don't just have that individual bone with the cut mark on it but you need to know how it's positioned next to this one and that when and where it is Within the bone bed and that you need to look at the whole picture rather than individual pieces so the site the bone bed that pile of dead animals could be conceived of as an artifact. Yeah you know a thing we talk about the we talk with David Meltzer once. And we were talking about the folsom site and interesting thing like like you're getting with folsom site is the RIB. Slabs are not there which suggests when they butchered those things whatever twelve thousand years ago when they butchered them they hauled out the ribs on the bone because as not in the a bone bed. The absence of something is the absence of something becomes interesting. Well that's that's where you start looking at both. What's there and what's missing? So we're up to the nineteen sixties and that was sort of the seventies that was perspective of these bone beds are artifacts and then this calf on me stuff sorta reared its ugly head and one of the things that he does. Is it sort of wait a minute. Let's take another look at this science it sort of. You've often points out what you don't know why you don't know it. Rather than as the wind way way. We normally think of sciences accumulating information at taxonomic analyses more often than not leaves you well. We're not sure about that. We don't know that or the other. So go back to the bone. Bed is an artifact everything in it is telling you something about human behavior on so that if a bones missing people took it away if you're carcasses are completely disarticulated. People cut them into little butchering units and deposited ause did their ordering it out. Yeah and if bones were broken human broke. Humans broke them to get out the marrow. So from the bone bed is artifact perspective. Everything there was telling you about human behavior to give you a really rich picture of what was going on and where the economy comes in going. Now wait a minute. We start looking at some of these bones and they've got wolf tooth marks on them. I don't you suppose the wolves were taking away some of the bones as well when they were coming in after the humans. Were there you you start looking at other the bones and the other broken. But they're broken with the center part pushed down into the ground as if something had stepped on it later so you can't look at the frequency of bone own breakage and say Humans broke every bone Just because carcass is not completely altogether in skeleton doesn't mean that humans had taken it apart into those individual parts. We've all walked across the landscape. insinger dead things and more often than not. They're not all completely go go. There's a there's a shinbone there's over the skull. Yeah never never find him but for a while. When we're doing archaeology we sort of forgot about that? We'd look at a site as if any of those processes happened or stopped happening just as soon as humans left way and it it was frozen in time and so the study tries to bring all those other factors into account of how many of the bones do have the carnivore. Teeth marks What percentage tiny job them have cut marks relative to tooth marks? What breakage appears to have happened paramore soon after death as opposed to long after death where so so you can maybe separate out the human breakage from the trampling breakage from the dry bone breakage later scattering one of the studies I spent? Did My doctoral dissertation work on is I spent a lot of time. Looking at how recently dead cows would get dispersed across a landscape and measuring the distance from for example hip toward the Femur went rant and how that change and starting to do it over a known time and you can do it with a known individual and then when he go to archaeological site you can start measuring the bones and and start begin recognizing the bones of individual animals and see how they get dispersed and see if the dispersal patterns you see within the beds differs from what you see. Naturally so part of what he does is tries to establish some of those natural patterns Without assuming that every again one of the strange things that archaeologist I do is we tend to have this idea that humans create patterns in the world and everything else creates chaos and randomness. And and we all know by looking at for example the way streams move cobbles around They sort them by sizes. They sort them by shapes. We're not we're just one of many pattern. Learn creating creatures use as your standard basic methodology is of. If you see a pattern. We did it so Taffeta me. Tries tries to understand all those other sorts of patterns that could go into it and as I mentioned before that sort of gets into that. Hey wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute so so you asked me to talk about a specific site inside the that I said I spent eleven years on the Hudson Meng Bison kill site it was called the Hudson Wine Bison can kill site when we got there and there's close to eight hundred animals. You're not gonNa tell me as buzzkill story right and not to kill site. Yeah well we don't no no my bottom line now is after you do the traffic analysis you get to the well it could be a kill site But there's a lot of things that don't necessarily mean there's some points there. Does that mean that the people killed the animals. There's twenty three points and eight hundred animals so sort of as a and that's doesn't fit the pattern we see okay. These eight hundred animals are stretched out of what size. Patch ground there. Oh in size of this room you know thirty by I twenty feet. There's probably no. They're over huge area but size of this room. There could be the remains of fifteen to twenty animals. It's just a solid C. of bone bone on on bone. So they cover. Oh maybe seventy meters by fifty meters so a little less than the size of a square football field and end. The deaths were spread out over. How much time looks like almost instantaneously you can look at? You can assess time of death by looking at two eruption wear patterns and so if there's a mass kill amass death there's GonNa be a snapshot of the age structure of the population and since Bison are birth pulse species. They have most of their calves within about a two week period in the spring and the biological the schedule of when the teeth erupt and when they start wearing from chewing on grass is is predictable. You can look at the jaws of the cavs avs in a site like that until how old they were at the time. So you get all these cavs all have the same Russian. Yeah Hudson Bang Looks like they were like four months. Old so sort of middle of the summer late summer so and then and then you know in the age structure. Then you'll have a gap in the age structure and then you'll have animals that are a year and four months old two years and four months old and when you get that nice discrete sets of of age structures that tells you you've got a catastrophic amash death of all those animals dying once in the twenty six points. How some I forget the foul like a how directly affiliated are they with the bones starting to know summer some are associated in the same strategy graphic level level as the bone some are slightly above it summer slightly below it There's one point that was reported to have been stuck into a bone but when we went back through the collections the the point and the bone societas with have different catalog numbers and say they're from different parts of the site and someone pulled it out well or that somewhere in the recording process It wasn't recorded in a way that we can in today. Go back to it and say yeah. We're one hundred percent showed bone with stuck in that. So when we record a bone on a site like that and like I said there's Two hundred some bones owns the skeleton of a Bison and eight hundred bison getting started do the work and imagine how many bones might be there when we recorded site today with this taff onomic comic perspective on the in in mind before we remove it from the ground we record about twenty nine separate observations on each individual bone the goes into into a massive data set. So you don't have that that problem down. The line of which bone was where it's like digging a site like a bone bed is like taking apart. A hugely complex jigsaw puzzle that you're wanting to be able to tell somebody in the future how to put it back together exactly like it was so you don't just say there's blue ooh pieces over here in red pieces over there. Every piece of that puzzle has an inventory number and its exact location is is pinpointed. So that and that's why so you think he's of excavating a site. So Hudson man we went in. I was thrilled to go into being able to dig the largest known Paleo Hailu Indian Bison Kill site in North America and one of the things that the original researchers had noted were that there were no skulls. There that they'd been taking somewhere else. Eight hundred schools gone eight hundred skulls gone which led to an interpretation of. There must have been some sort of ceremonial thing. I I gotta add. We laughed all this all time. Everything they can't understand become ceremony exactly. That's that's in there with Only humans humans create patterns. And if we don't see a pattern that we recognize it must be a ceremony there a corollary to that. It's like everything like ill. There's three schools lined up ceremonial ceremonial. Sometimes we'll get to all kinds of shit that isn't ceremony. You see my kids so they they line up their Halloween ceremony line and shit. Oh so that was one of the interpretations of you know. The the skulls were missing as a matter of fact when I first started working where they're the forest service and they had this idea to attract funding and attract scant attention to call it the law skull learning being center. No Yeah Yeah we'll give okay. Keep going keep energetic. I'll know that's fine. But here's the problem talking to me. Then problem with Utah going to me is I know. Oh like I've heard of all this stuff. I don't really know what goes on behind the scenes story. I know the version did it was like did they slaughtered eight hundred the giant pile. Yup I didn't know that then later that story maybe became more complicated so we got some missing skulls. The other argument that was used early on was All animals were completely articulated. Cut into bits and pieces The other argument is even though there wasn't one there. Now there'd been a Klaff F there in the past that's been filled with sediment all the sinkhole. Well it's it's natural cliff there's other scientists sinkholes and so you've got a cliff on one side and then about seventy meters air potential cliff area about seventy meters. You've got this pile of bones. And so they're saying while the animals went over a cliff. They cut them apart. They drug these bones over here for the secondary processing. So that's what I thought was going on there when we started recording the site and and one of the first things we noted when we got down into the bone bed there weren't complete skull. Sure enough but there were lots of maximum tooth rows. Upper a two throws there are lots of the petrous portion. The big hard portion at the in the inside of the head there is The excels the base of the skull. There's lots of portions of skulls but no complete skulls really. And then you start thinking I'd say quick story yeah One time we kill the brother killed elk and we quarter it out and it was a cow. Love the headliner week later. We went back. See what the Grizzlies did to it. Guess what was left. Not they start right if the nose and work their way that yet ball ball around gone. Because you're now you're peaking my interest so one of the things we record is a few magic bone laying on the ground and it's not laying completely flat. Well let's say we've got a bone laying on the ground and it's flat. I talked about those twenty nine attributes record on each bone in one of them record. We record is the degree of weathering. You know when you first exposed bone after turn animal dies. It's nice and clean and solid surface and all that sort stuff go back and look at that bone two years later and it's starting to crack back in the pieces of it are starting to and there's becomes poorest and linear fractures through it. We've developed a coating systems to describe that weathering weathering and so we record Reza weather weather One of the sets of attributes record are the weathering on the top surface of the bold old and the weathering on the bottom surface of the guy with the idea being if the bones laying there on the ground surface and not being moved. There's a good chance that it's going to be weathered more intensively on the the top and the bottom like a year old. Drop Antler. Yeah you'll be like bleached brown exactly. And then he knows it's been there but it hasn't been there like that long so imagine that going on in this pile of eight hundred bison and you're starting to get some sand and sediments blowing in. Yeah it's IT'S GONNA start covering up the basis of some of those bones and they're going to skirt kept in place there sort of not glued down but they're held in place by the sediments and it's not blowing in and one huge nineteen thirties. Dust Storm you know. It's accumulating little bit by little bit by little bit by little bit that it may take fifteen twenty a years for a foot of sediment build up yeah think of how big a bison scholars it'll stand a foot and a half from the teeth up to the top of it above the ground surface so while many bones of the skeleton can be completely buried within a few years. They're still going to be the tops of those skulls. Sticking up above the ground continuing to weather continuing to be trampled on continuing to be broken into bits and pieces so unless you have very rapid sedimentation across the site you're not gonna find the skulls goals. Yeah I got you. So so that came into play and then we saw yeah stuff owned by non on him or the next herd of Bison that runs across that area trampling on all sorts of things can reduce the skulls to lots of not the sort of hang on your wall quality skulls Gulls. But they're still they're they're they're bits and pieces so that sort of took the law school learning center out of the category being they just silly but maybe maybe the eroded school learning center the we got that ruined neuron learning center which is earnings. All about isn't it. Then we started started looking at things like As I said we record each individual bone start doing measurements of the articulate surfaces. And you can match those to the other bones ache Goto a two and so rather than saying these. Animals have all been brought from point A. to point B. as little discrete groups. It looks like each carcass is kind of scattered Richard within a couple meter area. You know it's what happens if he'd be there fall apart and get scattered. It's not. Everything has randomly dispersed in here and there the carcasses are in the point where unless people are dragging complete bison carcasses across the landscape for seventy meters. They're in the position where they died pause from it. Now that you're deconstructing the initial hypothe- what like honestly I. How did someone think like what size group of individuals who they postulate would have even been capable of butchering eight hundred Bison eight hundred bison in the mid to late summer? I mean that's sort of rating idea that we were talking about groups of individuals that have been ten to thirty individuals roaming around Yup to the the the labor force to butcher that many animals as completely as they were argued to be butchered would be boy you know we call out half the town of Bozeman for a weekend and maybe get it done. Yes six to ten people per animal. Yeah right and then we're talking about and they're not gonNA summertime right it just stripping the meat off the argument was they were then cutting him into segments. They were moving across the landscape broader hunter butcher over that have been like bulls in summertime right. Well that's yeah what's the to threaten and where it's gone bad quick bad I mean yeah so you can take a couple of months and you talked about looking at the Grizzly gnawing on the skull. Imagine what's going to happen to the grizzlies and the wolves and everybody else there. When you've got eight hundred it's GONNA be wall washes up on the beach in Alaska? You know and I realized they got like thirteen. Polar bears right so it's going to be dangerous place to be if you're are your one hundred and gather family. You're not gonNA wait around there. So they're all sorts of things and then eventually we got in the big equipment heavy equipment and excavated some big trenches backed where the cliff was supposedly. Because you know again you're always trying to evaluate the models okay. It's not looking like a jump over cleft cleft. But let's go to the base of the cliff and see what's going on and what we found is. Yeah there's a bedrock cliff there but you can follow the the buried soils from where the bone bed is back towards the Clintons. They approached the cliff. They form a gentle surface. That cliff was already buried married at the time the animals died guy and just by looking at the looking follow like the sediment whatever the Senate lines you're you're reconstructing what the old land surface Tesla. Yeah so then for a while the crew would joke about things or well maybe it isn't a bison jump maybe it's a Bison stumble. They were running down the hill or what about got burned up. That's that's we don't see and that's we and we talk about half on the things half automous get excited about. Is His research opportunities like boy grass. Fires killed a cow. Let's go look at it to see what happens. All parts of the skeleton. How badly they get burned We don't see any of that kind of burning in the bone bed itself and remind me to talk about burning in the bone bed minute and they couldn't have got stuck in the mud now. There's not you'll get sticking stuck in the mud we've got got some sites like that and you find things like the feet and the toes and the limbs down in the mud so damn stuck there can be a foot and half AFS difference between the elevations of the feet and the rest of the body where it finally comes to lie. These are smeared across one land surface. Lightening Strike couldn't do that could. Maybe if they're all that's is one of our suggestions potentially if they're herded there together the one lightning strike could do it. We're about one Tornadoes hit them not in Tornado country. We are in in Nebraska we're northwestern Nebraska so tornadoes could be possible and I don't know you're there there again. What things you wish for? Wouldn't it be fun to find to hurt. Cows have been killed by a tornado hard. Well I don't know whether it I'm sure sure they get killed but In that sort of number they probably get killed one to three at a time do that does it. Aggregate them in the tornado or does it scatter them across the the landscape. Don't I don't know you ask about fire And we don't see evidence of direct burning on the animals but they're down below where this cliff wasn't sort of a swail next next to a damp area where you might aggregate for purry fires burning and one of the things that happens and fires when they burn over areas like that is they'll often suck the oxygen suggest of low lying areas. They may have speculated so by the time we got done Hudson Mang. The original excavator was really sort of irritated. And we never said that. It wasn't a kill site did he. Did he double down. Yeah you know. I'm reading a book by read the book by an entomologist. It's GonNa come on the show named Justin Schmidt and he started insect toxins but he has a early in his book. He has a thing he's pointing out like this. No offense to you. This is the reason all the great discoveries are made by young scientist. This is because they don't give a shit about what everybody thinks. And then you come up with something and then most of them spend the rest of their life trying to defend her initial rely dea in circle their initial idea because they're really reluctant to be that they were wrong and that's Java science to not fall all in love with the idea in the first place and to continually be trying to figure out how you could be wrong and again. That's why I like the field of taff on because because that's sort of its goal. You're always asking that. Well we don't understand all the things that create in every site I've Doug You've got sort of your your textbook. What you go about half on but then you realize that it's in a slightly different situation where it is on the land? Surface shade is it in were snowdrift warms. It is an area where we haven't studied those staff and you realize you need to go back to the modern world or come to the modern world and study those processes again to make sure the understand stands continually in that cycle of of saying this what we think we know but then I yeah but what about this I think one of the most embarrassing embarrassing things that ever happened to me was. I was giving this sort of presentation years ago soon. After I got married I had my wife my arm around my new wife and I said something to the crowd like yeah I. Embrace ignorance can get. That didn't go very well because the point is you know if you really you WANNA learn something step one is to say yeah. I don't know that. Or what are the alternatives. So in the Hudson man case we came away from it saying yeah. These animals died and there's indications that humans were in the area Maybe soon after maybe a little after but whether it's a functional association nation we can't say for sure because there's always all these unexplained patterns that may not have anything to do with the kill event so we took a perfectly good story and turned it into who knows should solicit it opens the door or for new research and I always like. It's just as interesting I. I always root for everything to be a kill site human kill so I give because that's really that's fun asking all it does bring up like if not that. What then how does eight hundred hardly ate? If you've ever seen eight hundred or something in a field it's a lot of that's a lot a lot of big animals but you look at You know go to the Zimmer rockies here there's big piles of dead dinosaurs in single bone beds they don't always occurs. There's one to their sites where there's in the tens twenties to thirty animals in the same place And they make a good another good control to study of. You can't in that case say will it's human kill site something there are processes that killed large group of animals over and over again without having humans on the seat. So what's your best guess le-le-let's I know you guys like to do this in your business but once you like. Why are there? Twenty six twenty seven whatever like why are those as it. Projectile points scrapers projectile point. There's some scrapers. What are there for? They could have if the animals died. Humans could you know we're great scavengers as well as good hunters they also. It's biased spring. There's and I said there were points both in the bones below the bones above the bones. Hell they could come there. Twenty years later and camp next to that spring where most of the bison were completely buried. Now there's lots of ways you can get close associations in an sediments across landscapes without being created has been a good hunting spot. Aren't the only eight hundred. Animals walk through their eight hundred two. Something I'd probably come back and check it a year later or a lot of the planes any place. There's a water source and there's a spring right there is going to be one of your hunting locations over and over and over again I got you yeah you know. I'm sure you've ended under the La La Brea Tar. Yeah Yeah like there you have Maha mean how would you like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of wolves and that whole wall L. Dire. There's a wall like forty some dire. Wolves came out of that thing but it was active. It was like collecting carcasses over time over so much time that I remember seeing the I remember like someone was saying like there's so many bones like what was going on here. How could it be bombed? And someone said like one event event in that vicinity one event per decade would account for all of these bones meaning a mammoth calf get stuck in the tar. Yep Sabertooth some scavenger goes out to eat it. Get stuck in the tar. A few birds come down to Gavin's they get stuck in the tar if that happens every decade over the whatever twenty thousand that thing is collecting things when it's all said undone you open it up and it looks like it looks like Noah's Ark got dumped out inside there no but it's just like a gradual but but the eight hundred to one pile is so like intriguing. Yeah it is especially when you see like eight like if you were to look at eight hundred cattle in a pasture shank me. That's going to be almost a football field full of dead animals man the stench. Oh yeah the standard again and one one of the things that I like to call bone piles like that kill sites because even if we can demonstrate unambiguously that people killed them if you really want to take full advantage each research advantage of them you can also study them as other Predator and scavenger food sources. And how does those was kill sites produced by humans feed into the ecology of the other scavengers in the environment. So you can really start trying to reconstruct an ecology of the area if you approach the site not just by trying to learn about people you know that that's the thing when I was talking about Lebron I forgot what the point I was going to get at when you look do the Hudson Mang did you defoe. They're all kinds of like wolf bones bare bones mixed in like had gotten killed while they're in there scavenging Nova Thir- our bones that have the tooth marks of the SCAVENGER Gotcha so Unlike libra where if you're scavenger that's trying to get that tasty dead smelly rotting thing and you fall into the tar and you get trapped herself while you're there wasn't that natural coming each your fill or unless a grisly came and you were out and it killed you to potentially within a few months all the meat he was gone. Yeah so we started. You know talked about half on me and all the meets gone. We studied things like What happens through time as as maggots consume carcasses says and and what parts could get you see things? Well one of the really fun patterns at Hudson meaning that we see The kneecaps the Pella's are often in place at the lower end of the FEMUR and the proxy there right there where they belong in the skeleton. How does that happen even though they lay and loose ones everything rots away? Yeah but think of if you've watched an animal rod and I've spent more time doing that than it's probably healthy The lower legs up through through at least the knee when the meat rockaway the hide often contracts and holds it down around it. Yeah so seeing things like a kneecap in place on a carcass is that you found in an archaeological site is probably a pretty good indicator that that animal wasn't skinned all so if it wasn't scheduled to get to the meat because it could have been in case they could have been Case dirt by the time. Yeah by the time that the because of your berry bear burying incrementally that dried hide around. It's almost like armor. You know it's rawhide. It's tougher than hell and it's going to hold that in place through a long period of time on on and some of those. Did you see that thing recently came out. This is over in Europe can count us in. Were they found. Were guys had been stashing. Not even even like Shank like the meat you may just forearms legs and the stash knows in a cave. Yeah or what they found was at bones cave and they were wondering why they had to scrape behind them to instead of distributed and someone postulated that they dragon in contract just throwing them in the cave. They always through the from the hoof to the NIA yet in a cave there and later they'd go and scrape it and you've got railroad Caroline Hyde off to get the marijuana because they're like why else would they need to have scraped. Yeah knife that away when on a fresh ailment you just peel back. Yeah like got like a banana. That's if you'd read that study it's kind of that sort of taking phenomenon to an extreme. I don't think I do this in that. They were saying boy after for a week or so it starts to taste a little rank. They were actually you tasting it themselves. The male starts tasting we rank up. Yeah here's a hot job thing for. This episode is brought to you in part by Amazon Logistics and right now Amazon's looking for delivery service partners entrepreneurs who can start their own package delivery business and build a motivated team of drivers to operate delivery routes in their community as a delivery service partner you can get access to a full suite of resources including training on demand support in exclusive deals on equipment like Amazon brand vehicles in industry grade hand held devices if you're passionate about hiring and coaching great teams. This is a great opportunity opportunity for you to see what it takes to become an Amazon delivery service partner Goto Logistics Dot Amazon Dot Com. That's L. O.. G. I S. T. S. DOT AMAZON DOT COM. The holidays are approaching quickly quickly here and he may be thinking about how you're GonNa try to save a little extra money. Well here's a way you can do it. You can consolidate your high interest credit card balances to lower lower rate and save with light stream. You get a rate as low as five point nine five percents. APR With Auto Pay which is much lower than the national national average interest rate of over twenty percents. Apr Plus Your rate is fixed so as rates continue to rise you're low rate won't budge and there are no fees and you can even get your money. As soon as the day you apply now just for listeners of this year podcast you could apply now to get a special interest rate discount. Discount the only way to get this discount is to go to light. STREAM DOT com slash meter L. I. G. H. T. S. T. R. A M dot com slash meaty subject to credit approval rates. Include a point five percent auto pay discount terms and conditions apply and offers are subject. Change out notice visit light stream dot com slash meat eater for more information. I had a student who is a biochemist a few years ago and had another student that was An archaeologist and we were watching carcasses rod and he started questioning whether if you've seen a big carcass carcass wrought during the middle of the summer. The maggots infest it. They start piling out. You could collect courts of maggots now and he sang ply. I wonder wonder if people would eat those maggots. They're probably little fatty sort of. I'm sure they're good for you. Well what what the student. Who is the biochemist? Did we started collecting tissue samples from carcasses. The died during the winter. You know and found out that once the maggots infested and throughout the winter that it would be okay eat. When the maggots infest they start bringing in a bunch of other toxins so the toxicity of the meet? Once it's Megan fasted goes up really so probably. The the mega harvesters of the high plains wouldn't be a very very good subsisted strategy. You know what's a good story for you okay One Time Mile Man and when we were kids my dad like hit a buck with his bow and he killed quick but we never found it. We didn't realize it when it ran into a Cornfield cornfield and we later realizing must have stumbled over ten times without finding but get it like the aero came down high street below punctured lung. Didn't make exit hole so it runs off and we don't know how but we missed it. I mean we like headed walked over but we would go check on later and one time we're out there rabbit hunt go to check on you know. Dad's dead deer by the time we found it was rotten and there's a hole in its ribs. There's a hole in its side and appeared on that whole and there's a possum living in there. Oh and actually hold him by the tail. You can imagine that possible died died and then it gets a case it looked like it was like a fetus. uh-huh moral card ever dear. This was the dears last meal. Yeah whatever be like. Oh you know probably happens. A possum crawled in their diet. What came to mind? You know there's a site in Colorado. We'll hopefully I can explain it enough. You know what I'm talking about is the site Colorado where there is a lot of debate about whether it was a mammoth kill site whether it was a spot. that a few Ma'am Scott washed up in a gravel bar. You know what I'm talking about north. I think it's like between Denver and Fort Fort Collins near the dent site went out by Greeley. Maybe what's the dent site it's One of the one where people can't tell if they died or got killed it. It was the site where there was first excavated with mammoths and points that were eventually called. Clovis points before the Clovis site was and the association she ation wasn't really established and it was so that might be the one but the idea was the last time I remember. It was the the people that are arguing. The kill site were arguing that somehow they were crossing a river. And then going you get a little cut. You'll have a high bluff. Hi Cut Bank. But now you're finally. They'll gap a little washout. Animals will use that to get through the thing. There was the idea that somehow ambush these mammoths coming up to that thing. That was a good spot to get him. It's over time. Maybe they'd killed a couple there but in some later was like Whoa. How how do we know? It's just not a place for carcass would wash up on the beach or whatever. I'm not I I could do a better job. I'm not familiar with that one but I am familiar with the site where that was a question. We there's a site in Wyoming near warling Wyoming called the colby mammoth site. I've heard of that where there's seven mammoths and a lot of the bones occur in two piles and when George prison originally excavated and reported on the site in Science magazine. He hypothesized is that those piles were areas where people killed mammoths or scavenged. Mammoth and then taken some of the bones piled over the meat that was left there packed snow and stuff in to put it into sort of freezing storage to where you come back later. So he saw the the bone piles is being meat. Caches Ebony published in Science magazine. You know one of the top scientific journals in the world as being this science and nature one or two published in science As being a Paleo Indian meet cash and one of the responses to it was they were in the bottom of an Arroyo. Okay where the piles one of the responses to it by a fairly well respected researcher was sort of George. How do you know that those piles aren't just like what you're talking about? Sort of the mammoth bone pile pile equivalent of driftwood got water moving down a winding royal aren't going to accumulate in some areas and big piles and one of the things things that I really respect. People like George Risen about is rather than taking that defensive position you were talking about before his response to say well yet could be. How do we figure that out? So he and I The the university that was at the University of Wyoming and I was working on my PhD HD on collections there They had a mammoth skeleton or an elephant skeleton in their bone comparative collection. Because we we took the elephant skeleton out to one of the streams north of Laramie where we could dam upstream. Lay The elephant bones in the bottom of the stream. MM-HMM Record their positions Released the water record. The current velocity Dam The stream again come back and measure which bones moved and how far they moved and we did that a number of times so that for each bone in the elephants skeleton we developed what we called a fluvial transport index the same way as stream will deposit rocks toward the headwaters big rocks. You get down toward the mouth decided. Some bones lightbown will float on water other role so we developed this index of which bones would be most likely to be transported by flowing water and then we went back to the colby bone piles to see if they matched the that sort of transport profile and they didn't did not did not. So you. Can you can take things like that of are these bones transported by water or not in your next step is how do we develop methods to assess that. So what do they think happened. Was the leading theory about what happened at that site. I think we're still into the the I original interpretation of meat cash is probably most likely it looks like one of them may have been where they did that pile the stuff on and came back later and opened it up up and got the meat back. SECO- doesn't look like they ever did that but again if you're highly mobile people across a landscape You're probably going to cash food wherever or you can as a backup strategy of if things go wrong. And and even the the bone piles sites during the winter where they don't necessarily put them in cash piles. You're going to know that next spring. If you're hungry you can go back to that site where you killed. Fifty Bison in December and it might not be the tastiest stuff in the world. But there's a food source there so I always thought about Stephenson the Artas blower. Yeah when he traveled in the Canadian High Arctic and use US. You travel with honor versa. They'd kill everything they ran across. Yeah and they're putting Nepal Qigong because it and then they had in their head. Just we're all this stuff was. We've just interviewed another gas. Who just finished a book about the greely Polar Hush and yeah every point us go? Because you're in your boat you just go and drops off appoint. Because then if you're sort of like travel lined out that you knew you could rely your breadcrumbs of safety would you leave you've caches and you'd see they'd always leaving no in there in a container saying like there's this at this point this at this point so that other people could find it in go about sort of covering these surplus food sources that he didn't want to have with you 'cause it was too vulnerable to have it with you. One of my professors Lewis Binford spent a lot of time with Vanunu Metex Komo up by Brooks rage. And they talked. He talked about how you could talk to the old new mute and they could tell you where things were cashed pretty much much all over Alaska they may never been there themselves. But you've been there and you left something in this little dry spot and when you came back to camp you tell these things like dust would seem like really boring stories like there's three sticks of wood in this cave down by that river and so the greatest quote from that was he said one of the one of his informants said you know Lou every dead Eskimo remember something. He didn't pick up and put in a cash when he should have. Yeah that's it's interesting. Yeah I mentioned you before. I think it was before we started recording mentioned. You might cons. Yeah he found he when he was doing his work. Up in the North Slope of the Brooks range they were looking for the goal will be. You'd find evidence of the very first American is it. Would you know would have been in western Alaska after crossing from Siberia but but one of the things he found was an old cash of trap and equipment and russian-made russian-made shotgun very old. No someone had whatever put it there and figured it'd come back and never got back to it. Yeah that's Today we think of our lifestyles of cashed up in our closets. You know when we put our our winter clothes up and get our summer clothes out. But if you're mobile across the landscape there's a lot of stuff that you don't need all year long you're going to be cashing stuff for emergencies. But you're also going GonNa be cashing your summer gear when you're going into your winner range and you don't pack everything so that a lot of the archaeological record is not only stuff. People lost intentionally early but stuff you put up and may not get back to and so those are really spectacular if you can find him. Have you ever found a mountain man cash like these. No it's been a a few of those covered over the years beaver hides and you you read accounts of like Were they've dug their cash. Bits put stuff in it and then they couldn't get back because they got killed or this the that'd be really fun today. Yeah Yeah like they. They'd had a way they could sorta make a like a safe storage place for for Traps and dry fever is is all. I want to squeeze one end before we leave the Hudson Mang the gang that one of the reasons they thought that it was a kill site was because of the the way that the animals were cut up quarter. Yeah and so now that you think that that wasn't the case what's the explanation of that. Well they dead things fall apart art. And if you look down on the bone bed it looks like just this jumble of scattered bones but then if you start like I mentioned before recording a dimension of articulate surfaces and tough like this the things that look like they're totally random are carcasses that have dispersed within a fairly small area. Yeah the bones aren't completely articulated but if you were setting on. That wasn't a very like organized. No like butchering coaching shoulders. Over there. If all four of us were to die in this room and be left to decay was natural dispersed my femur might might be over next year cranium. That didn't mean a damn thing about it'd be like someone off and you got whacked in the head with my famer would be sort sort of that. All Right Hey tells about what's going on with the I don't think it's been fully published yet but a lot of people have been sending me the articles and I've been reading everything I can find about the What might be so? You're you're probably go down there and buzzkill the whole thing that but when might be eh mammoth traps north of Mexico City till two pack mammoths toothpick to new mammoth site This is a new thing right. It's Yeah they've been working there for about ten months okay. The second mammoth that was discovered there in December the of two thousand fifteen They're putting a water pipeline about two kilometers north where this recent find was and they found a nearly complete mammoth skeleton talk. No no no I'm talking about. There's one they're digging. Oh yeah this is okay. I got got their their antennas up. Okay or mammoth might be in this area. And they they reconstructed that one. They build a hall of Mammoths Museum to Display Ruin. Yeah and what that one At that time their story was got bogged in the swampy ground next to a lake and so they were putting in a new landfill recently. Digging the big pit for the landfill and they started noticing mammoth bones coming out and they were they were intentionally looking for them because of his previous fine so they they were cutting into the lake sediments and they thought well we found mammoth here before we should look at that and sure enough they started seeing mammoth bounce and is is this a woolly mammoth the Colombian matlock bigger than willing bigger Pretty impressive credit so there are more of a southerly warmer climate man right. Yeah Yeah so They were fortunate that they had people on site to look for the mammoth bones They after they were exposed. I in cut bank there. They could go in and do some excavations and they uncovered remarkable sets of math moans. I think the wellness I've been reading through the the press release that they put out last week The the the things that I can say about the site that our observations that are facts are that they're salvage excavations uncovered eight hundred twenty four bones. Most of them were mammoths but there was also a couple camel bones. There was a horse tooth and they're deposited in finely bedded deposits. Some of them are clay layers and some of our volcanic ash layers and those finely bedded deposits are inset sat in two older lake deposits. Okay so that's what we know about it. That's what from my reading of it. I was takeaway as observations from that. The whole set of interpretations that kind of roll out in the press release are that there were fourteen. Ma'am there that there were found in two large excavated pits That there were systematic regular hunting of them that it was intensive use of the mammoths. Were there For example they say The mandible the jawbones are turned upside down so obviously they were cutting tongues out. Manuals are upside down instead obvious. No Oh that's curious about oh no bones because the press is even being like their tongues twenty six twelve kilo tongues and it would have been just because and again. What's the likelihood that if you're laying on the ground you're JAWBONES GONNA turn this way as opposed? You know. It's fun fun. Yeah so that was because it was upside down along the tongue. Easy access to the tongue from the bottom you know when you cut into into a bison to get its tongue out if it's if it's fresh you can open now get the tongue. I cut tongues out of stuff. I can't tell you what we leave the head now and the way you leave leave it stuck. So let's leave the tongues for a minute. I'm the bones weren't fully articulated in these new areas again. They were scattered. We talked about it. Hudson main So that's Obvious butchering They said that they found well. In one area they found six right. SCAPULA was no left scapula shoulder blades. So obviously people must have taken the left Scapula one. Well that's pretty. Let me the tasty fifty one. Let me give you one bad taff joke and then we'll get back to the real world I would say it's anomalous is to find all right Scapula's because we usually find the SCAPULA's from the other side. Yeah because if they weren't laughed Tada you wouldn't find him as good. It has a good job so the whole series of things there. Let's go back to start down the list four. Okay because there's a there's one that what they felt was laid out ceremonially ammonia leave because they had been injured in the past. Well it's it's Tusk had been broken in the past and And they honored by laying it out ceremony. They moved moved. Its SCAPULA's or pelvis up by its head. There was another task from another animal was placed around it. It's sort of one of those classic examples of there's patterns in the piles of these bones and the only explanation that's grass bat is. Humans must have done it so I think it's a fabulous site every one of their sort of Things that they've interpreted. I see his research questions in other than answers. It's a runs away with this stuff right depress. Well the press do but I think in this case and I don't I don't WanNa sound derogatory about this. The excavators may have as well 'cause think if you're faced with this amazing quantity of mammoth bones in an area where people are digging landfill and you know it's an important research thing and you go to the press. You're you'RE GONNA WANNA make it sound as important as possible to be sure it doesn't get destroyed I know. Here's here's this fabulous site and you're talking you've got to make it a site that is worthy of preservation and further research. So that next time. Something's found so. I'm not saying they necessarily did that. But in the back of if I were faced with a pile of mammoth bones that impressing I'd be really worried about the preservation of them and future areas of the site and trying to get everything. I could for preservation and protection and funding start running the cruise version. They start running the coolest ab true. So I don't think that President and on this site there's no scientific publication associated with there's one there's GonNa be right sometime but right now it's one like four page age. Press release that everyone of the newspaper articles have been taking this one press release and spinning a little different. Would you welcome an opportunity opportunity to go down there and have a look. I'm retired and I would love to but that to do a site like that effectively. Need somebody with a lot of energy in a Lotta time. It'd be oh I'd love to look at it. I would be on a plane in a minute. Just to go drool on a site like that Just because of as they sort of mentioned in some of the press releases and this where I get to like an Hudson Mang and a lot of others in terms of really understanding the past of these landscapes we live on at one level. It doesn't matter whether it's a human kill cider not understanding the past ecology college in life ways of the mammoths in that environment that we know that in some instances what fourteen fifteen sites. Humans were praying on mammoths directly understanding understanding the biology and ecology of those mammoths is key so regardless of whether this site has human involvement. It's key site. Are they finding finding human. Are They finding artifacts report no stone tools from it. which again is sort of surprising if you've got fourteen mammoths and you never once re-sharpen stone tools and essentially disposable to and you never lose one you know think about all the huge piles of guts? Let's and Gore and just bloody stuff you're GonNa be dropping tools losing. How do you not lose something so I'm buzzed killing? I'm skeptical Michael about the site Another thing that I'm skeptical about is that there excavated pits They talk about the size foot. Six foot deep holes. Oh Yeah I just saw my kid this morning about this. There was telling me how they actually do it. He says they put sharp sticks in the bottom where he got that. You knew that the geology. While they don't talk about the geology of the site they I know it's radio so I brought in some good pictures. This is what the site looks like. There's a pile pile bones you can see. There's sediments here and then right over here. This is sort of drop off. The real are indeed strop steep dropoffs adjacent to the bone. They think that's the natural agile that he's looking at it. Looks like a man like allege like a like a six foot high cut bank. Well they cut bank real real high potential. They talk about in the article that at the time the site was forming. The lake that it was forming around was its level was dropping. It was drying up. The lake level is dropping any water. That's running into. It is going to cut IAN channels so I they're going to have to tell me that these aren't erosion channels cutting into that lowered lake level jumping to the conclusion that you've got more recent sediments In older sediments. The only way that can happen as humans digging a hole. A THAT'S A. That's quite a leap. We've all a lot of the Bison kill sites we've found find that are in the same sort of sedimentation old drainage bison killed in the bottom of it builds up over it. People didn't dig the drainage yes yeah I don't know the pits is a stretch for me. I'm just you were talking earlier. About how many people it would take to butcher Some eight hundred bison how many people is GonNa take today a what is it. Eighty meter long by twenty five meter wide hole two meters deep. You know that's half the size of a football Egyptian grade businesses pyramids and why are are you going to invest that much labor where you're not out hunting in an environment that supposedly fairly rich and mammoths yes. You're going to be sure you're we're GONNA get them if they're right there but we talked about one of the things that I've been worrying about recently a lock suffering. Why why did you not like okay when this comes out? Why do you not right so I was reported in the New York Times? Why do you not write a letter? Do not waste your time like. Why did you not write a letter to the editor? Saying look you're minute in kind of like layout why do you let why. Why do why do you guys let the whole thing run and catch on fire and then guys like me tell us all about it? Good question preservation. Like he said well laziness easiness. It's not my problem I'm retired. I heard these stories. I don't you good question. It doesn't burn you up at the stage sort of runs off the back. We've heard that over and over and over and over and over again Be often get this buzz of crass and then you start looking at the story a little deeper and you find out well. It's not that simple I find. That's the thing is because I like to follow anthropology is like I do find that the stories generally get less interested with the exception of the woman school. They found down the Yucatan underwater. Oh I'm not familiar with has gotten better okay. I thought they got better. Yeah so old I mean as I think it was one of the one of the oldest pieces of human remains in the new world and how to get better. Oh because they found all the stuff that goes with. Okay yeah all the other bones that were down in there and and You know the car they're able to terminals like a young woman like injuries injuries and just want to be in good dude that they've seven thousand year old. Do they found in Europe. Aussie the ICEMAN. Yeah that's good. Here's something that's really interesting about Ozzy. That's not related to auto at all. But he's about what three thousand years old four thousand years killed by narrow. Well died by. He has had was carrying heroin and there. They can reconstruct his diet based on. What's in his stomach? They were looking at Lichens that were growing. Just a May tricked out boots. That had three different kinds of heights on them and stuff yeah. That's the fun thing right here. In this area of the world world to know about is the oldest Arctic artifact from an ice patch anywhere in the world comes from the bear tooth mountains here. No Yeah it's a ten thousand years old so about three times. The age of Aussie really is something. Yeah there's at Atalanta. Dark shaft researcher here in Bozeman Cray Craig Glee founded a few years ago. Radiocarbon dated. He's been working on these high elevation ice patches that are melting out and exposing the stuff trapped in so right here across our raider. Yeah I remember the guy. There was the dude. I remember two things like this in Canada but I know some adults the oldest ice made out of a burch. I believe but don't quote me on that it was still armed. Now it's got the shaft and the point is not and it's kind of warped from being it but it's got the marks on it and it's got the notch where the point with went in it was. It was a decker at all Welt has couple marks on it that he thinks maybe ownership marks if you know if you've got a dart in several darts end up in an animal and you I'll say what might art got it. No that's my art. So you do occasionally put marks on it to everybody uses different flashing on Shit. So I don't know I like to bring that up just because we start talking about all fabulous stuff and I do a lot of work with kids And I grew up in a small town called not Wyoming. Where you think you're in the Bakken Akkad nowhere and there's nothing unique going on there so when I work with kids in this area I try and bring up things like that? Did you know the oldest one of those in the world comes from right here backyard. I find uh-huh I was just telling someone this morning about how you know. Where will solve this drive there? You know beer and time for lunch For for a long time. That was the oldest human remains in new roles. A little a little boy named Anzac one. Yeah so down roads picture. Are you worried about finding the perfect gift for someone this holiday. Well Peleton is the gift they are guaranteed to love. You know we we actually have a Peleton and I love it. It's K it's slick. It's like very like a lot of exercise equipment. Kind of Clunky But just very discreet and you can move it around very easily Does not like you like you. Don't like the stall at somewhere where it lives for the rest of his life. You can move it around. It's easily adjustable. My wife likes down there and there's a wide variety classes. You can do on their jump on. Get your own shoes. Click in and I can jump on and do you in a big thing with hunting man or any outdoor stuff is like legs and lungs. You see people working out you know. They want their neck to get out wider than the ears. But that doesn't that doesn't work in the mountains. What you need is legs and lungs and if you've got a Palatine in you're using it all the time you're GonNa get there and you're going to be a force I to be reckoned with out in the woods again it's just like convenient? Big Variety of classes is a great workout. It's actually pretty fun to get down there and challenge yourself off so it's a gift keep on using with an endless variety of entertaining live an on-demand classes plus motivation from world class instructors. It's also the gift that saves them time was an efficient high intensity cardio workout at home. They can spend less time commuting in more time with the people they love better yet with Peleton's new home trial. They can try the bike. Worry free for thirty days and should decide. It's not for them. They can return the bike for for a full refund. Pelivan will even come pick it up at no cost this holiday. Give the gift of Peleton for a limited time. Get Two hundred bucks off accessories when you purchase the Peleton bike go to one. PELETON DOT COM. That's O n e Peleton Dot Com and use the Promo code meat eater at checkout. All right everyone. If you if you follow everything that goes on over here me. Either you know. We bought this little chunk. A property called the back forty in Michigan. It's actually bigger than forty but we just like the way back. Forty sounds a place where we're doing a lot OUGHTA learning and experimentation around land-management wildlife management learning all about everything from birds to pollinators turkeys the big giant box six and me and Mark Canyon. WHO's running the back forty project? Our Unity Award can win hunt and come out and hunt with me and mark will kind of be there like support short-staffed you'll get all the primary pins you can win hunt. Come hang out. We're going to eat wild game at night hang out during the day. Put you on the best hunt we can find for you help you out everything. Talk Shop be great deal. Go to the MEAT EATER DOT com slash win a hunt. Let me lay a bigger a bigger notion on you. Do you feel that Do you feel that for a while. We really had this idea that early. Humans the earliest Americans. The first Americans were these hard hitting very successful big game hunters and you're going around around slaying. mammoths left and right killing all kinds of big stuff. Wipe an animal's off the wiping all the megaphone off the face of the earth and in my like my casual observational. Following of anthropology is that that narrative has become disrupted and that is like they were eating. Lots of other stuff Places that we thought they'd killed. They weren't actually killing them. They eat a lot of clams they lot of turtles they lot of seeds and nuts and yeah maybe now and then they got lucky and found a cripple mammoth and killed at. Where do you sit on that on the extremes and then all of this stuff bounces in extremes? Right it'd be like all was mammoth someone's GonNa probably counter that within. They were Vegan Vegan and then somewhere right how how do you feel about. Do you think that that's true that that flow of that perception is going through. Do a change in in. Where do what version is right? Okay you Profit that was saying you wanted the look at a little bigger sort of broader question and I agree with that sort of perspective entirely and For years I was fascinated with the peopling of America's that was one of those things that just that's why I looked at these early kill sites and mammoths and by size to try and understand you know why because it is the most fascinating thing in the universe. And it's like playing. This game is not even debatable. That's not even debatable. And excavating them is. Those sites is like playing this wonderful game of pick up sticks. It's just the most fun you can have doing. So I was fascinated by it and in the last twenty years I become much less fascinated with the peopling of the Americas question. Why because that isn't the question? The question is why did we leave Africa. The People in the Americas we ended up everywhere in the globe we people the planet invasive if speech because people everywhere so why is it that we started expanding out of Africa in the first place as you move away from home. You're curious curious but there's also I think getting back to the specifics of your question we're working on a site. In northwestern Ethiopia at about seventy seventy thousand years of age trying to answer that question of what was going on with humans in terms of our ecology right before we left African expanded into the rest of the world diaspora in Yemen Diaspora and traditionally when people have looked at human evolution and human movement into Europe. Just like in the peopling of America's they focused on that big game hunter. You know the week and expand because we're the APEX Predator into every environment we go into one of the things we're seeing on. Our are seventy thousand year old Middle Stone Age site on the tributaries of the Blue Nile is was at its northwestern Ethiopia. Okay so right right. Around the time we think that anatomically modern human right before we started that diaspora. And what we're seeing is. Yes there's a few big game. Aim Animals there but there's also every other damn thing that crawls swam wiggled walked I think one of the things that makes us effective is not the big game hunting per se but that we are just so plastic and our diet we are the classic omnivores which means that you can move move India any environment out there and you're gonna find something. I just heard the other day. That eighty eighty percent of the animals on the planet are carnivorous is the dominant form. Because you've got all the fish and stuff. Yeah it's the dominant the dominant way to be so if divorce or of small minority which which gives gives you that opens up all those other niches so I think the peopling of the Americas they they the answer to the people of the Americas the timing. We still don't have down but it's that were just flexible and what we can eat and what we can do and when you plug that into like we left because we could we left because we could and we had If you can eat anything you can go any damn where you want. You know as you said you plug in curiosity to that you plug in even marginal population growth to where if oldest kid you know. Why don't you go over in that next valley like not like not propelled by the need to go? Oh kill thousand pound. It is obviously running out a thousand pound mammals. That might sometimes pull you. But at other times it one of the things. We're seeing along the Blue Nile. Is that The tributary were on is a seasonal river. It has one hundred meters wide twenty meters deep during the rainy season but then during the dry season ends up into these little puddles and those little puddles are where the Games attracted to. You can walk out into those puddles and he'd pick up meter long catfish You know there's just the dry seasons and this runs counter to the ways cat man. It's but in the past. Is there no well. We've we fish to collect the fish into them in the ground collect their bones put into our comparative the locals give give us that sort of of doing what with that. This guys got it all wrong but anyway it's looking like in terms of resource predictability in the past models of when people left Africa. Suggested we did it during the wetter or phases of where you can make it through the Saharan down along the Nile Valley. That obviously you're going to do it when it's wetter but what we're seeing on. This is when it's during the rainy seasons during the high moisture season is a really tough time to get away because the games dispersed It's tough to fish in the rivers. You can't get them all. You can't get the fish but the dry seasons are where the resources become predictable because around those few remaining waterholes and so you could move from waterhole to waterhole to waterhole around these small resources rather within the bit you know following the big game you're following the catfish in the mollusc from one. Waterhole like pearls on a string down the river. It's just going to suck you down the river during during the time time of year when you know again we thought of it in the past. If you're not going to be out there in the middle of the desert during the dry season it might make it the most predictable most likely the eight not only the a small staff but if there's game animals in the area they're going to be coming there to water so you're GonNa know that several times a day there's going to be game animals as well you know. We've we've been fortunate enough to travel a little bit on some rivers down in South America with Amer Indians and They really liked to try saying. Oh yeah the the fishing's phenomenal and I saw about when the dry season dry dry season they like. They like the dry season to travel because everything is concentrated and deepal what season. It's it's muddy and it's awful it's terrible and you sit around in your rained on and it's miserable. They talk about the only thing about the wet season is if it gets so so wet that you have small little hills that become like refuge. Had everything you can go there and get a Lotta. You can go there and then animals will have to get up on those and that's you can just pull up and kill them. That's fun. That's the flip side of our dry season two times a year when you've got these these sort of landscape scale grocery stores because because everything's there your big costco you go out. If it gets like that they would go out in their boats clean and they know exactly where those places are where everybody likes to hang out they always talk about the dry. ICBM when you want to fish so what's your what's your theory on. The I mean they. Where do you stand on the blitz? The Blitzkrieg Blitzkrieg hypothesis idea North America. The humans that that that humans came in just ideas popular in seventy nine eighty in maintained remain popular for a while human came in and killed everything. And that's why the master gone because People Killed Emanate Amal. Are you sort of go against the grain on that or I what what is the grain on the ground analysis. Bullshit I think the scholarly consensus. Let's go back to you. Know we've been talking about Hudson Manning. We left that story with killing. Might be one potential oven when you look at Pleistocene extinctions. I'm sure that having a new novel Predator editor on the scene had something to do with it but if you've got a climate change if you've got vegetation change if you've got water source change if you've got maybe new diseases on the scene. It's hard to say which one of them is the the killing stroke that. I don't think you can say that. Humans had nothing to do with any you. Could you know you can't put wolves back into yellowstone novel Predator and say they don't have something to do with game population numbers so humans had something to do with it. But I don't think think the Blitzkrieg Model I think it's too simplistic I think it's Goes back to where we started. It falls back to that. If there's a pattern all these animals dying within and a couple hundred year period we must have done it because nothing else creates patterns. Yeah us no one for you. I was saying I was saying to someone the other day. Their Day Yanni was there we were out doing little arrowhead hunting on bodies ranch because there's a spot where there's like a hill will jay is. He's got a barn above. His Barn is a little Benji Hill right about creek and there's sort of this little erosion line the kind of marches. Its way up the hill and so one of the guys out there that works on the ranch was saying you know a cool place to look is every year I'll go up and look at that little arose. In line you'll find a lot of flakes stone flakes and we went up there and look around and found a bunch of stone flakes. Found one little small little I mean like a little point tip was missing but a little point size. Your thumbnail I was explaining to everybody. I don't know if if using earshot but I was because he was off looking around to explain it relate man all the low hanging fruit is gone. And I'll say like you read about Arrowhead Huntington Thirties because for longtime knowing gave it no no one cared. He's known picked it up. Then all of a sudden it became interesting. And then you got all these guys like sheep. Herders from the thirties and forties. It would fill five gallon buckets full of arrowheads and now sanders. Nothing left but before we started our record a conversation here. You're talking about the kind of stunning the amount of sites you still able to identify when you go out looking touch on that like I against it like different avenues of approach that you take B. One. How like? How much stuff is out there? Do you agree that all the that everything's been picked over over and it's all gone now. Have you not even scratched the surface on human human sites. You just opened up a whole Warren of rabbit but holds Sarah. I'm trying to which would go down Looking a lot of a lot of areas have been very heavily picked over okay. So that's true which from an archaeological perspective is just devastate. Really which means you can find an archaeological site. There will be a few flakes there and all you can say about it. Is People here sometime in the last thirteen thousand years which we knew before that I was just like little chips. Yeah if the points are there those are like light we talked about the like. GPS puts a time stamp on every time. You're in a spot if you've got a point there you've got a time stamp stamp of when people were there so unfortunately for years but I grew up putting arrowheads. My grandpa took me out. That's what got me fascinated with it. People have been collecting thing arrowheads in particular which means they've been sort of erasing time from the surface archaeological record. Yeah because unless you know like we talked about an individual bone in sight knowing where it comes from as a puzzle piece unless you know where each one of those points come from. It just turned into a nice little piece of rock walk rather than being a piece of the puzzle so yeah things have been picked over real severely and it means it makes our job even harder as an archaeologist Collagen to try and understand human use of landscapes I was talking to you a little bit about the things that we find in remote owed areas away from where people get in the high of Asians a wilderness areas and we do find points there Most of what we find are or the small flakes. The I think I mentioned in the last Twenty years we found close a little over two hundred thousand artifacts most of them are small flakes lakes and even in the remoter. Is You know twenty miles from a trail head back in the wilderness areas We've been picking up folks. Folks have been picking up the points for the last hundred to one hundred fifty years so even back there there Sparse and the record. Word is terribly degraded. I got quite a collection of points in his strategy. Almost has say what its strategy is. His strategy is high amount passes it's We get remind me to get back to that here in a minute and I need to make this point. High Mountain passes means they're on Forest Service problem missiles to touch him which means he's probably got enough points to make it a real easy felony offense at this point. Yeah we're Damian. It's like it's you're asking a Lotta somebody which means no. LemMe Lemme go down. Ah I we do catch and release archaeology up there. We found these two hundred thousand things and damn near all of them are there this. Did you talk them in or did you leave Mon Mon.. The surface yes. I'm going to damage the archaeological record by changing evidence. Some other trump's gonNA find him. I often get that down in the bar if you don't pick it up some other. SOB will and I say my aspiration aspiration has never been one of those. Sob's it's on the Arctic. Slow talked them all into the Moss. We I have jabbed is close to where you found it you talked it into the mall. We we We use HIGH-PRECISION GNSS receivers. We have it's location down within ten centimeters tucked it in we could come back and find it but when I work with students I see the archaeological record. One of my jobs is to leave it as much on changed by me as possible so that they can come back later and demonstrate. Why the old? Sob Todd what was wrong and his interpretations. I start pushing things down into the saw. That far watching Kushner new bone on accident or they come back and start excavating that site and the elevation elevations of that point is five centimeters different than everything else on it. They're gonNA say well. These are two different occupations. Todd was wrong. That point isn't associate so I might might. I see archaeology as sort of like medicine. The first rule is do no harm. Leave it as intact as possible lady dropper purse dropper opera driver's license or credit card right whatever five bucks Ashby like young and take that five bucks. Because now I wouldn't but someone else would. Yeah exactly and one of the things that I as I get older. I now have grandchildren and I'm waiting for the day. They're the oldest. One is three now where I can start taking taking them back onto the landscape and showing him where these points are in their natural habitat. Not only does that. Make me Super GRANDPA. But it connects the people people. Would you know get to find that point with that landscape in a different way. It's not just you know this open hillside. It's at hillside where these were. I found that point so I think just leaving them. There has that opportunity to connect people the landscape and way they don't otherwise half. Let's step back from it further One of the reasons we don't see or that we don't envision wilderness. Areas is having a lot of archaeology is by time the for trooper further trappers rappers came into the mountains. A lot of the native Americans had been living. There had been killed by disease or they'd been pulled out of the mountains to the trading post down in the lower elevations it was an underpopulated landscape. And so we've brought that that notion into the president of high mountain areas. The passes were depopulated. Or you don't don't think of that. Historically you think the people out there hunt. Yeah we see we. She got that idea. We'll we'll be in the mountains and I wonder if they ever would have left the river valleys and even gone up opener. We see We've got teepee rings sites habitation sites at over eleven thousand feet. We've got sites in the high elevation and Where we find April to March mountain sheep fetuses they were up there late winter? We find sites where there's bison fetuses from near full-term back to just beginning at Heil they were there year round and we sites that are not. Let me get back to my the people were. They're much more than we think. In the past. So getting back to the idea of wilderness depopulated no people we ratted the people from there. And so if we're back into that same area picking up the artifacts arrowheads that demonstrate. Their presence were taking that one step further by erasing their physical presence and that just bothers me that that approaches to. Yeah we've already killed vast numbers of now we're going to raise their presence by removing those artifacts from that landscape. You know trying to do self-improvement like I'm exploring this idea right. Now of if you're hunting on a tag started thinking the perfect person. I did this once this here if I was a perfect person. You're hunting on a hunting tag and you wound something and you feel that you mortally but didn't recover save failure view. Would not you tag. When I'm going to try to do is like it would be very very difficult for me? But the C.. Point for a half appoint and leave it all one of the things that would be hard. One of the things we do is we take Latex molding material country with us we find that perfect point we make a mold of it low catch and release catch and release. You put the point back you come back and you can make a cast that you've got that three dimensional memory right there and I thought wouldn't it be great if outfitters caught onto that that you can take people into the back country and rather than having that person collect that point once and take get back with them and give you a little tip. If every year we went back and new hundred you could say well. Let's look around here for some arrowheads. They find that Arrowhead. You make a mold of it and the Arrowhead goes back in its place and the the hundreds go back home with his memory. Yeah it's another sort of you know catch and release but of an economic value to the folks that do often encourage picking him up. I don't WANNA I don't want you to think that I'm like plying you for trade secrets so that I can go and ransack federal lands. So W not bought as much as you're comfortable like when you're scouting just rolling through the mountains scouting around do you. Have you developed a sense of like this would be a good place to look or do you have to treat everyone equal because you didn't know what it used to be like or are you looking for stone flakes you kind of know. Your eye knows what to see for tent rings. Like how do you sort of navigate if you're trying to look through it through human eyes right from thousands of years ago. What are you imagining when you walked mountains? Let me give you an. I'm going to try and work through three answers to that a couple years ago. I was down. I'm talking to some elders on the schone reservation Wyoming about this catch and release archaeology. And they'd like that idea and then I ask him another question which was every time in the mountains and I put my tent down and start looking around where my tent is start finding flakes and do you think or would you be more comfortable with my leaving my tenth there? Should I move it off your ancestral site and the guy I was talking to thought about it for a minute and he said you know if I didn't see those flakes I'd move your damn ten because something's wrong with our place so sort of answer answer. One is good places to camp in the past or good places to camp today And so that's that's one second one. Is You sort of as you're spending spending more time with like with anything else. You start to get that innate feel for places that should have stuff you know it just has that ping the right sort of stuff so rely hi on that a little but again since we always want evaluator ideas rather than just saying I know where stuff is. I've been working with several people who are sort of one of my former students Paul Burnett. He's sort of a GPS modeling wiz. And we've developed probability ability models based on where we've looked in the past on where there's the greatest probability of finding things in in present we've got about ten Dan variables of landscape dimensions that go into this linear probability model and gives a probability model for every ten by ten meter area across the forest of from zero to one hundred percent of. You're gonNA find something there is there. Something is one hundred percent now. We're at ninety eight ninety nine percent and is born out. It's well I can give you an example of and we've reworked this model a couple of times One of the variables when we first hit the model of where we didn't find things was in heavily timber areas so heavily timber areas Low probability finding stuff and then we started doing post fire archaeology. And you know it's not a big. Gee who is Mr Science one of the reason. You don't see things in areas where there's that much duff under the trees is you can't see the damn ground So we started doing work After fires and start seeing stuff there so you throw the tree cover out of your model and we keep revising the model and we go out every a year and work with it. Yeah when I was when I was spent that ten days hunting arrowhead guys. That are really good like anthropology on the North Slope The first thing was open ground. If it's Moss don't waste your time. And the second thing was that they liked is like great places to camp and they found that in nat country confluence of the rivers and they make that sort of v V of land where they come together. And you'd find like flat benches changes on a nice little rise above those confluence is good visibility. You're out you're can't on that bench you can see the valleys around you pretty flat. Ground Access to water enabled love those spots. Well Yeah you've let that cat out of the bag. Contractors is one of the ten variables we look at. Okay yeah still today though man. Oh Yeah downriver scrape place yeah You're retired but you still work. So what what makes being re defined retired no no no Pesky. PAYCHECK does retirement. Yeah I say an. It's sort of joking but it's sort of true. Who is I no longer have that damn job getting in the way of my work? Yeah so I spend pushing. Yeah and being in a university faculty member means administrative stuff and you know endless things that are draining your time. And what drains it doesn't drain your time as an university professors interaction with students. I really miss that go but all the other sort of things build up so since I've retired. And what university did you retire from Colorado State in Fort Collins to Since I've retired I spent two three months most winners working on the projection objection Ethiopia like. I'm talking about talked about in the winter. That's what we do in our winter and that's their dry season and in the summer I've been focusing on and again. This is when I retired. I wanted to get away from the data intensive things like bison bone bed. I wanted to retire and I thought what I'd really like to do. In retirement. Go backpacking in the mountains. And so I decided to start focusing on high elevation archaeology with this notion in the back of my head that I'm not gonNa find much and therefore I can still be doing archaeology but it won't have those huge data sets to deal with The first year I went up there with students We're going to survey twenty miles along a forest service trail quarter in a ten day period and I thought boy we can do that easy. We made a mile and a half and recorded six thousand artifacts and. I thought this isn't this. We hit. We hit the hot spot and that's gone on and on and on and on and right now are cumulative data set is over two hundred thousand artifacts so I'm again back in this huge aged data big data lots of attributes. Oh my God did I get that wrong. SORTA thing but it's it's exciting because the areas where we're working working in the wilderness areas in the greater yellowstone ecosystem are one of those blank spots on the archaeological map of knowledge. So not only. Do I get to embrace that. Ignorance ignorance again. Here's something we don't know about and so every time we go out we're finding new and interesting things and one of the projects. I'm working on now as sort of to dovetail with that is I've been working with some of the people that have been doing the migration studies of GPS coloring animals and following them and looking and how they move across the landscape and we've been beginning to collaborate on whether those quarters that the game animals are using bay. Well have been quarters. That people people would've used so not only have. I failed in retirement in getting something. That is a lot more complex than I thought. Beekeeper beekeeper realizing that. You can't just do the archaeology to understand it. You need to start worrying about the biology of all the other critters that are using those landscape simultaneously. I I liked your filling in the map like that because I feel like that would wind up being helpful when people want to develop pristine ecosystems that you could talk about how. There's a lot of cultural insights. They're probably can't say like Oh. Yeah but like from my perspective you could weaponize that stuff and use it to protect wilderness. It well it has. That's a double edged sword it in that some people who are anti wilderness will make the argument. Well if you're saying that people have been there forever forever. Why should we keep people out today? So you've got to watch how you make that I'd say Just because yeah there's a real difference between doubly weapon between all so people were all over here all the time and you're saying they were major component of the environment the year round. Okay let's put the road in there and get the scarier. Yeah get everybody back in their Yup. Let's yeah it's like we were talking about mammoths and all the people that WanNa WanNa do the DNA and recreate ma'am. You know you make that same argument folks might say well. Let's re people will wilderness. And now I'm not gonNA brought up Phil what you've got. That's one of those arguments. The it's going to be there anytime you start talking about finding archeology in the wilderness. Listen I've had people say that to me seriously of well. Then why do we have wilderness. It's it's not that the concept I gotta think about it for a minute. I'll come up. It's the law was poorly written when it says where he man is only a visitor. It might we might just reword the lot where contemporary use of it is only transient or something like that. I got you got. That's been great. It's a lot to take in and We should ask Philip. He's anything on Saturday to sure we can do that. And throw the Phil if you do years years. I don't have a whole a lot. I just AIRHEADS spill off the federal land ever found one never looked never looked though so we got some hot tips today and use the to abuse the law. Not at all. At least I won't say we'll in front of Larry. That'd be really bad if you did you find a lot of discomfort in uncertainty. And I guess they could So I it's a foolish way to live. I understand that but I I love talking. You're listening to people like you seem to relish in it I you know. I'm sort of one of those almost. OCD organizing things when we go into the back country for example I've got a spreadsheet That tells people their calorie output per day for the entire time for my food shopping list. You know I'm I don't like uncertainty but unfortunately that's the way the world is and unless you wanna live in a delusional world you've sort of got embrace it so the things that you can. I can control how many calories I take into the mountains for twenty three days. I can't control what happened in the past and I- uncomfortable with that. Yeah you deal with the things that you you you can put in some little boxes and archaeology one of the reasons I really love. It is because of that uncertainty I would hated to be in a field or job when you're retired. You say well I know everything I need to know about this. I can just go fishing for the rest. Not say fishing's a bad thing but you can just play golf. I WanNa talk about something you can never figure out your fishing. It's the same thing if you're an an avid fisher person. You're going to be working for that forever and you don't know if you if you do it right. It's always slapping shopping in the face with what you don't wake up and pay better attention and think about it this way and so It to me it makes me feel more like a kid all the time because you're always sort sort of curious you're asking why why. Why like kids always do rather than saying I've got the answers you know who didn't cope with that? Well now that you would know my father. I didn't cope with that. Well my father didn't he never he didn't finish. He didn't formally finish high school right but he he never fell in love with the The journey of knowledge and would be dismissive of entire fields of inquiry because they were always as he put it changing their story. He didn't like it so it'd be that instead of saying. Oh It'd be really really interesting to understand like why mammoths went extinct. Agai floats idea and people like. Oh that's great idea. And then later someone poke holes in it. It wouldn't be that he remained interested interested. He would be you know. They don't know what they're talking about and he would get angry about it and condemned Kim the whole question. They were changing their story again. So you can imagine how you'd feel about like the African diaspora right. That changes all time time and he would just get where he didn't WanNa hear about it. It was all hog wash. It can't be right there if it isn't black and white. Yeah which is you wanted to know the damn answer now. Now they're all stupid. No one should even wonder about sort of. My Dad was a lot the same way you know. He never finished high school. He was a rancher. He you know And he was real skeptical when I started talking about going into archaeology stuff. First of all. Why don't you get a real job And secondly you're you're GONNA ever get paid to do it and then and I got. The university. Jobs are getting paid and I started being an African being in France next meeting these bison sites and he put up with it because it brought the money money in and it wasn't tell that legitimised Jim is but it wasn't tell he was almost gone and I went in to talk to him the night before he died and I was telling him about how he's GonNa Shift Gears and go into the mountains and try and understand what was going on there and trying to see how the people in the game animals interacted and get up there and start looking. Nobody'd ever looked and he pulled off his oxygen matched and he said it. Sounds like you're finally doing something worthwhile. Oh really talk about another spurs to get out of the academic and get into that you know finally got that I got a guy piqued just curiosity. It didn't matter you know that was academic full professor at university. That was just ask. I'm we finally finally doing something that matters Yanni. What have you learned? It's been interesting in this post in retirement of like these mountain landscapes is the I just think how complex and how intensively they've been used and that we've you know we we for years. The archaeologists specialize in the areas where we can get to. It's like that. We specialized on bone beds because they're easy to see specialized planes aries rating. Drive a four wheel drive to. And there's this whole other world that we know almost nothing about so. When I was a kid I wanted to be archaeologist or an astronaut so this is sort of combining both of those because I'm in a a new world doing archeology and everything we find there's wow teepee Rings Stone Circles at eleven thousand feet that have habitation debris. What are they doing here? You'd need you know one of those thousand dollar. Swedish chants plopped. told it in place but they're up there the high winds. They're doing things that so I think just that. Oh my God. What's there's this world that I never knew? Existed is is probably the most exciting thing I've ever seen. It's it's what keeps you keeps you going. I wish I'd retired thirty years ago to our had better energy better energy to be up there like I said earlier up for twenty three days this summer and after about ten days I got this message Jenner in reach from our outfitter that said do you need anything and I think he thought we'd ask a bottle of whiskey or some beef steaks or something like that and I said Yeah. How about Ibuprofen age where order that becomes a real serious things? I wish I could have started into these are known landscapes earlier. You know it's funny man. We're my brother and I were up in the comic. Sell Pine Zone in some of the similar area to what you've been talking about this and had this conversation in December where we found very improbable little beaver dam man. Like what the Hell's I think doing up here and let us talk about about. During the mount man era guys would ever like found this beaver scouring this place out and then I got us talking about if you sat overlooking this meadow. We're on house. Like how many years would you had to see her. Before someone strolled through two thousand years ago Aretha and we were talking about this imagine like it must have sat here ten years to come by. I think actually then. Maybe it's like Megan saying that you've been seeing someone every month. Come through there I relish the isolation of being in the Wilderness. Not Seeing people and one of the reasons. I've quit hunting as much as by the time. Hunting season rolls around my empty wilderness starts to come repopulate. But I'll Betcha that in the past and what we're seeing from. The archaeological record is that the year round number of people are much higher than today so rather than thinking of it at two thousand years ago. How long would you have had how to set here? Tell somebody walked by. It probably should be flipped on its head and said how long would I be sitting here before some other. Sob came by and Spook the game. mm-hmm yeah man. One of the things that I really get fascinated by what attracts me to the mountains is I've always got to get over that next pass. Look at that next drainage you know just afros especially get older I go God will ever get over that pass into that drainage and we talked about people moving into areas and that curiosity has got to be part of it. You know you wanna tie the country together of what's over here in what's over there. Yeah I got that problem real bad. There's a spot that's bugging the hell out of me up in Alaska or is get up and look like we're in kind of Alpine areas real beautiful and then there's this deep trough of nasty looking timber but then you side. Yeah there's another one popping up and it's like just to get in there that's got to be the coolest place in the world ars. I know. No one's been there for three hundred years. It's exactly on that camp. That was recently discovered above above Gunnison that's cool spot although the one up on the FOLSOM sites up there you know I just read about it. And they're doing some fun stuff. Ten Thousand and feet above sea level winter camps or even and I'm pretty substantial structures again. That's when those illnesses bad ass houses paved with rocks. We tend to think of we we've talked talked about Biases like only humans create patterns in another bias that feeds into things like that is the older. Something is the least sophisticated. The poorly early more poorly made it is and you know we've got time and time again when you look at the archaeological record of North America. In many ways the older staff is often. The most finely crafted did the most sort of Best Product and as you get more recent at turns into the notion that we have that old is is crappy. Modern is better whether it's housing structures or stone tool project appoint technology just doesn't hold and I love can getting back. Act that certainty to take those things that we just assume we know and saying. Now wait a minute. Let's look at that a little differently and so for me the the how do you know that that again. It's like that young kids Daddy. Why is is sort of? That's what drives my sort of curiosity is. I've always got that sort of why and what I what if I pick that up and thought about it from a different way. If I had one token to a time machine I think three things well one would be that out. Go with Dana. Boone over the Cumberland gap. I can't remember a year was pre revolutionary and do that little jaunt with them And one that our goal like out with you know like the hang out with folsom hunters twelve thousand and and the other one that outgoing like Ulta Mile City twenty thousand years ago to see how long you have to sit there for walks by like razor a bunch or not many. We'll says like glass S. up shitloads of like you look look looking. Can't find one. I would love to know that. Four thousand fifty thousand whatever man. I would love if well. That's why the time machine stuff like people would wanna go back and watch them signed the declaration independence. I mean that's cool but that's out of other stuff we're talking about that site Mexico earlier That's one of those sites where you know with that. Many animals well preserved. Start trying to answer for at least for that area. Where as I mentioned trying to answer those Paleo ecological questions as interesting is is trying to say well how people interacted with them? So you know if I had my time machine One of the things. We've been finding in the mountains here that I hadn't seen ever in the mountains are glass trade beads and we think glass trade beads for trade period. We've got one site where we've got. Glass Trade Beads and metal. They're cutting into Arrow points and things like that that I submitted a butchered bison bone for radiocarbon date and got a radiocarbon date back Jack of sixteen fifty and being an archaeologist. That's wrong we know that trade should be any metal points or yeah and so we've we've submitted a couple more and they're coming into that mid to late sixteen coming over from Mexico summer coming by then some coming in from the English and French fur traders on the east coast. Yeah so I would love to be in the mountains of North West Wyoming late sixteen hundreds one hundred fifty years. Ask them and we're to help you get to ask. Yeah and what's because that doesn't fit our picture at all. You know we think of Lewis and Clark coming through this area and being the first sort of interactions with the native Americans Americans here one hundred fifty years. They were plugged into these continental wide trade networks and again I coming from a small town like not. I like to highlight that of kid. Ed Year from not from the back of nowhere. You're in a place that's been connected with the rest of the continent for ever. Yeah I've brought this. This final thought. I brought us a bunch of times. Where historian Elliot West has a peace talks about? When Lewis and Clark hit the Great Plains there were are Indians on the Great Plains who had gone to Europe met the King of France and come back again so in terms of like discovering I mean Yup com? It's much more complex. And a lot of issues that Lewis and Clark period is the baseline of whether it's how many grizzlies they shot saw or the mice populations and this and that and the other and if you consider the like nick was the the crow tribe in late seventeen. Hundreds lost sixty eighty percent of their population from disease. What's you know? That's removing huge numbers of key predators from the environment. So I time Louis Clark's comes through the environments reorganized. In a way it may have never been manipulated. Yeah it's it's not Weller Weller under manipulated. y'All Sunday be manipulated meaning like impact. Oh Man Yeah. A lot of our ideas of managing wilderness areas or managing engine game is to try and get back to that baseline that probably never existed that baseline of when Lewis and Clark came through was probably artificial. In that had been depopulated the ecology been reorganizing for the last fifty to one hundred years into something it may never been So it's it's an again. How Audi deal with that if you're a wildlife manager I don't know it's just sort of throws a lot of but it's one of those we probably need to think about it? Yeah Yeah my operating idea instead of trying to pin it to a certain year I just like to operate on I would like to see more wildlife tomorrow in more places than we have it today and in better condition. Yeah it's like I'm not going to attempt to tie it to what I'm trying to mad I just want. How are you tell you one thing I'd like more of a hot and more blazes debt? We certainly don't want shit decline. Yeah well thank you very much for coming on management. Great thank you this has been fun. Thank you
131 - Disappearances, Hidden Cities, Murders and More: National Park Mysteries
"The origin of the tuba Cobb related you Afo sidings and you'll seventy a giant lost Egyptian city in the Grand Canyon. Another underground city supposedly inhabited by mystical the marines and mount Shasta mysterious murders unexplained disappearances haunted camp, lodges curse land, the birth of a cult that exists and to this day, miss monsters aliens ghosts and more in today's cornucopia of strange national park mysteries edition of time. Suck. Having Monday meet sacks. Welcome to the cult of the curious. It's time so time, I'm Dan. Komen heave so many nicknames. And you're listening to time suck he'll Nimrod begun slash halo Safina praise. Triple m Ambuhl jingles long suck big thanks to our space lizards for supporting the show via patriot. And for leading this Donut. Eighteen hundred dollars this month to Baca bikers against child abuse. Keep hearing more and more good stories about that organization. Lincoln the episode description. If you want to donate more or just learn about this fantastic people and how much they do for the victims of child, physical and sexual abuse. Thank you again for the recent ratings and reviews another spreads the suck more than word of mouth. And the suck is spreading ratings reviews telling people it's spreads it so much the cold curious now, roughly one hundred fifty thousand strong, according to a recent analytics, and we do use the strictest measuring system of any podcast analytic platform out there. So I hope I can trust those numbers. Met some great time suckers on the mediocre time with Tom and Dan podcast cruise. I was blast. I didn't even get sick. I did sleep so much like probably ten hours or more today. And then still felt sick when I got home. Remember, my crazy voice last week finally went to the doctor pesky sinus infection, I used to get those so often thought it was good last few years. I mean, those things can linger. I think the warm Bahamian weather of the crews and some new powerful antibiotics. I'm on have me on the men's now, I'm not I'm not currently sounding like Christian bills. Batman, I have blow my nose about seventy five hundred times today, but hopefully not gonna have to stop recording twenty times during this podcast to to keep going ahead and Florida again soon for some more tour dates going to beat the off the hook comedy club in Naples on Thursday night, March twenty eight first time in Naples, let's make a fun. And then the Miami improv Saturday March thirtieth then I'll be at the Queen to suck Lindy's hometown. Cleveland, Ohio, April four through six another live heal kid suck in Cleveland, April six, Linda. Is going to be there and access apparel. I forgot to mention is going to be in Cleveland for the live suck only. They're going to be printing. In exclusive shirt, you can only get at that particular recording of the of the live time stuff, and he'll kids or the or the live performance gives me they had the brain summer. More remote printing. Apparatus trying it out just for fun. Little bit of experiments sesame pretty cool, Des Moines. Iowa one night only on April eleventh, Kansas City, Missouri Homa Johnny dare two nights April twelfth and thirteenth back to Nashville going to be part of the Nashville comedy festival on the fourteenth doing a live and he'll kids time. So could zanies I think right before small town murder. Do this one show only can't wait. Then onto the Texas theater in Dallas, April twenty six the place they John Wilkes booth hit out right after she supposedly shooting. JFK the secret group in Houston on the twenty seventh. San Francisco Boston Spokane Jacksonville and so much more coming up right around the corner. Ticket info for the entire. Two thousand nineteen happy murder. Stand up tour at Dan. Komen dot TV new danger brain black white classic hoodie at the time. So store been awhile since we had a new hoodie. I know we sold out of most of the sizes of the blue zip up hoodie and some of the sizes of the previous black zip up now. Now, we got we got a non zipper knows zipper crew neck pullover hoodie and in the ever evolving. Access apparel. Run time suck store the new dodge are made from the same next level. Fifty fifty cotton poly, fabric planned as the last zip up. Black Cody will fit the same. However, th- this hoodie is made up of ground up elderly, golden, retriever penis, meet you heard right. It's made up ground up. Retriever Weiner, mate. Why? Because we got a good deal on it so cheap. They were practically given that stuff way capitalism. Baby capitalism. Held him. Now, let's have some fun. Let's have a lot of fun. Let's get weird a little bit of murder in today's tale. But not but not too much. No, we've had a lot recently. This is a very different suck than the recent sucks. And. I love it. A lot of different stories little vignettes wandering around to the world of true crime the paranormal crypto zoology folklore and some good old fashioned wackadoo. Let's get silly. With today's national park mysteries. Okay. Time for a little bit of trivia before I focused on mysteries in four different sites within our national park system. We're going to dive deep into mysteries from the Grand Canyon Yosemite. Mount Shasta, which is a national natural landmark and will you gain national park in Puerto Rico, the only tropical rainforest protected by the US department of interior. So how about you know, about the US national parks in general, do you know, how many there are? I didn't before I looked up that info for this week's research, according to Wikipedia there are sixty one according to a variety of travel websites. There are anywhere from fifty eight to sixty according to our furry one eyed three legged pit bull and time suck mascot bojangles. The whole nation is one big national park for him to piss and shit on as he sees fit for him fences. And no trespassing signs are barriers. They are invitations their challenges, according to national parks dot org. The website for the national park found. Dacian? There are currently sixty national parks. But even that number is misleading. The United States national park system encompasses a total of four hundred and eighteen different sites. That span across eighty four million acres, which is more land than than a lot of entire nations possess. The system includes parks and territories such as Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands American Samoa Guam, just one of America's parks. Alaska's Rangel, Saint Elliot's national park and preserve encompasses thirteen point two million acres bigger than Yellowstone Yosemite and the entire country of Switzerland combined. The US national park system is is in total over ten million acres bigger than the entire nation of Italy within the number of four hundred eighteen sites. Only sixty actually include national park is part of their proper name like Acadia national park on Maine's Atlantic coast Everglades national park on the southern tip of Florida Grand Canyon National park in Arizona Yellowstone National. Oh park primarily located in north west Wyoming but bleed into parts of Montana, and I'd Aho in addition to these national parks there are eleven different national battlefields. Four national battlefield parks. Won national battlefield site, nine national, military parks. Fifty one national historic parks, seventy eight national historic sites. And then there are national memorials national monuments national reserves, preserves recreation areas fee, shores, lake shores and more. So how did all these parks get here? Well, some people don't think they are here. Some people think they're just lies pushed on us via the moon matrix manipulated reality being projected down onto earth facilitated by courts deposits and alien technology taking the positive reality programming coming from the sun's photons twisting them into negative reality. Projectors pushing us towards war and famine and discord whatever turmoil faves the nudity those damn ancient Babylonian brotherhood, reptilian motherfucker. Cres that have been slaved humanity from Linnea, but those people are considered by most academics. And scientists to be utter maniacs. So let's nor that perspective. We're gonna have some fun with wacky doodles who do believe in shit equally crazy to what I just said here and there throughout today suck. And if that gibberish did make a little bit of sense to you, thanks for paying attention to the David stuff. I've been talking about from time to time people who live in the real world where history has not been grossly rewritten where we're not be manipulated by aliens understand that the origin of our national parks can be traced back to eighteen seventy two on March. I eighteen seventy two then president Ulysses s grant signed the Yellowstone National Park Protection Act. The congress had just passed establishing Yellowstone National Park in the territories of Montana in Wyoming as a quote, public park or pleasure. Ground for the benefit and enjoyment of the people and placed it under exclusive control of the secretary of the interior the founding of Yellowstone National Park introduced a whole new concept and not just the people United States. But to the world at large, and that's the concept of preserving land for future generations to enjoy ensuring that no one will build on it outside the occasional guest lodge and gift shop, of course, the act began a worldwide national park movement today more than one hundred nations contain some twelve hundred national parks or Quillet preserves or as the access pleasure grounds. Which sounds a little perverse today? I picture people flocking Yellowstone do pleasure themselves around the geysers and hot springs. How was your trip? Yellowstone? Ulysses most excellent I was able to timeout Jackie Latian into the delightful, spray, hold faithful exquisitely magical moment, I was also able to toss my seed into a few hot springs and majestic groves of massive pines as well. And Julia was able to barely digital herself. I'll gaze into the grand prize medic spring few buffalo stopped in admired who beauty. It was quite an experience highly recommend three out of five stars in the years following the establishment of Yellowstone United States began to authorize additional national parks and monuments many of them carved from federal lands in the west. These sites were also ministered by the department of interior while other monuments and national historic areas would ministered by the war department and the forest service of the department of agriculture. No single agency provided unified management of the varied federal park lands. Quite yet. On August, twenty fifth nineteen sixteen president Woodrow Wilson signed the act in the National Park Service. A new Federal Bureau in the department of the interior responsible for protecting the thirty five national parks and monuments then managed by the department and knows yet to be established the act says that these services thus establish shell promote and regulate the use of the federal areas known as national parks, monuments and reservations by such means and measures as conform to the fundamental purpose of the said parks, monuments and reservations, which purpose is to conserve the scenery and the national historic objects and the wildlife therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner. And by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations to pleasure themselves with and that is exactly what it says minus the to pledge themselves with at the end. There was no more pleasure talk. Unfortunately, unfortunately, president Wilson wasn't Saint stuff. Like this this stomping of the herds of buffaloes. The the many beautiful songs of the foul of a new. Variety. The roar of the mighty grizzly the howled of the majestic wolf all make for such a sweet soundtrack for the stroking and did lean of American genitalia. Do Jackie late in front of a rare protected fern or upon the face of an endangered in beloved tree. Frog are seldom seen crane that will be the God given inalienable right of every American citizen from this day forward have him have him hooray. Was that moment had happened? Maybe maybe didn't some other parallel universes. Hey almost two decades later on July tenth nineteen thirty three. New president Franklin D Roosevelt D is in dick Franken dick Roseville now still on signed executive order six one six six into law allowing the president to reorganize departments that fall under the executive branch of government using his act. He transferred fifty-six, national monuments and military sites from the forest service from the war department to the National Park Service an action it was. A major step in the development of today's truly national system of parks. Assistant includes areas of historical as well as scenic and scientific importance all the sides now managed by the same agency. Then in nineteen seventy congress reaffirmed the legality of the national park system in the general authorities act of nineteen seventy saying that the national park system was began with the establishment of Yellowstone National Park in eighteen seventy two has since grown to include superlative natural historic recreation areas and every region, and that it is the purpose of this act to include in such areas in the system now additions to the national park system are generally made through acts of congress and national parks can be created only through such acts, but the president does have the authority under the entities act of nineteen o six to proclaim national monuments on lands that are already under federal jurisdiction. So the president can't add to the national park system in that way. The secretary of the interior is is usually asked by congress for recommendations on proposed dishes at the system. The secretary is council by the national park system. Advisory board composed of private citizens which advises on possible additions to the system and policies for its management camp. Nelson national monument in Nicholasville Kentucky Dogville. Yeah. Yeah. Became the newest addition to the national park system on October twenty seventh two thousand eighteen it's twenty miles south of Lexington. And it tells a story of the African American military service in the union army during the civil war over ten thousand African American troops mustered at camp Nelson, which also offered refuge for their enslaved wives and children camp Nelson was the first national monument designated by President Trump little bit positive local news who knew that was possible political news has become so pervasively negative. You would think that no politician ever did anything worthwhile ever at all anymore today? More than twenty thousand National Park Service employees care for America's four hundred plus national parks and work with communities across the nation to help preserve local history and create close to home recreational opportunities. Now, it's a random trivia about a few specific parks before Wade out into the strange sometimes scary waters of today's national park mysteries. I swear we're gonna get into the greatest shit here soon. The already mentioned wrangled Saint allies national park and preserves America's largest park. That's the one that's thirteen point two million acres larger than the entire country of Estonia dwarfs any of the other national parks in the continental US death valley. National park is the largest national park outside of Alaska. Three point four million acres, the Appalachian, national scenic trail cuts to more states than any other land maintained by the national park system, traveled to fourteen states, a two thousand one hundred eighty mile footpath that seems to be a pretty high up on the list of a lot of hiking enthusiasts as far as their bucket lists go now me I'll take a little bit to see it to see a nice vista. But you know, maybe make it to a cool campsite may make it to a little a little fishing area. But walking two thousand miles just to fucking walk. No, I can think of so many other ways to enjoy long sabbatical. None of them involve walking, very far almost all of them involve planes automobiles quite beaches in a nice bed. The Appalachian national. Scenic trail was completed in nineteen thirty seven runs from Georgia to Maine. The smallest and arguably dumbest US national park is the Thaddeus Kosciusko national memorial. It's only point zero zero two acres in size and making it worse that he was polish in a frustrates me that we've chosen to devalue our entire national park system by giving any land to some fucking idiot. You know, it's terrible. Why not dedicate a park to a rat. Or maybe just an actual pile of shit. You know, welcome to the hang Jackson national park in one thousand nine to hang shit. That was verified it over eight pounds and it came out in one pace. And I know that's not a great reason started park, but hey, at least it's not fucking polish right now, new listener, please. No, I only make jokes like that. Because Torralba post wife in reality. I do have a love for polls. They know how to make a sexy lady hilas Safina, but that that is cashew SCO part Israel in it actually is only point zero two acres in size. The park is just a small home in acquaint location in Philly, and it is where the revolutionary polish hero lived. And the park story encompasses his role in the revolution. How his legacy lives on Poland. And in the US and his story is pretty bad ass. I feel like I should we take a quick detour. Right. Let me make amends for on my constant Poche lender. This guy is a bad ass. Thaddeus, Kosciusko was born in the polish. Lithuanian Commonwealth in seventeen forty six the manner. He was born in now sits in a Bill Roose because of shifting national boundaries of Poland Lithuania Belarus net. They all claim him to be a national hero. Hit a gifted military mind went to military, kademi and Poland. But later was unable to enlist as an officer when violence broke out in his homeland because he couldn't afford to pay the officer's commission back then you had to buy your way into being an officer in war that he has had the education, but not the do the then he then tried to fight in France as young man, but after auditing various military classes, he he actually wanted to enroll, but they didn't accept him because he was a foreigner. And he was not able to fight as an officer because of his foreign status there as well. And then he heard about the American revolutionary war. And he set sail across the Atlantic. Seventeen seventy six just for the chance to fight for the chance to prove his valor in battle, not his war. But but he liked what they were doing when he landed. He submitted an application to the second continental congress accepted in assigned to the continental army the very next day on August, thirty first first thing he did was to help build fortifications at fort billion sport and Paul's borough, New Jersey to the Bank to the Delaware river prevent a possible. British advance up the river to Philly, and he's a hell of a job. He was originally listed as an office era is a volunteer. But within a month had risen to the rank of Colonel of engineers, he was put in charge of planning the defensive strategy for his army at Saratoga who's defeated the British forces on October seventeen seventy seven would prove to be turning point the revolutionary war in seventeen seventy eight. He was commissioned to build the military fortifications at West Point in important defensive position on the Hudson river considered impenetrable after he was done the site eventually became the site of the US military academy by the war's end. Thaddeus was made a Brigadier General received US citizenship. Along with a medal for his service of the continental army. And then went back to fight some more. He went back to Poland to fight for his homeland now now let him fight. Now. He had some dough he fought against the Russian armies of Catherine the great on behalf of Poland quickly rose to commander in chief of the entire polish army before being captured by Russian forces after Catherine's death. Her son respected him so much. The execute him. He actually freed him released him gave him amnesty on the condition that he just don't return to Poland. That's in respect. Right. Gonna let you live, but don't ever live in Poland again because I don't wanna fucking fight you anymore. Thaddeus, set sail for America received a hero's. Welcome became a close friend of Thomas Jefferson, and now he has his own piece of the US national park system. So that's a little overview of the national park system was some side knowledge about one of the best post people every with I can only I can only hope that my wife, Lindsey queens this. Here's that story. And just you know, just decides for wants to do something to do with her life. So that's that's really why put that in there. The US national park system covers a lot of different land. In a lot of different parts of the country employs roughly twenty thousand people an additional three hundred and fifteen thousand people volunteer annually to keep the various monuments battlefields wildlife, refuges and more pristine, and you know, a pleasurable and teeny bit more trivia, roughly, a third of America's national park lands of monuments were closed down during our recent government shutdown which is crazy because furloughing federal park workers caused the parks to lose roughly four hundred thousand dollars a day an entrance fee revenue laying off workers and costing the taxpayers taxpayers. More money, a lose lose. But enough tangents. Let's get to the good shit. The weird shit the strange sometimes spooky happenings that have gone on over the years and four of our national parks too many stories in too many park to expand beyond that strange. Shit happens everywhere. You know? So some of it is bound to happen in these parks, and it sure did sure has we're gonna be talking about some juicy craziness today. Let's start with the first of four locations the Grand Canyon. Yeah. Yeah. Are the Grand Canyon? I famous park I ever went to a kid turned two hundred last month. Have you birthday Grand Canyon? It became a national park on February twenty six one thousand nine hundred nine the canyon is two hundred and seventy seven river miles long. It's almost five hundred kilometers up to eight hundred mile or eight up to eighteen miles excuse me wide twenty nine kilometers and a mile one point six kilometers deep, and it was the fifteenth site in the US to have been named national park and just like with many frequently visited large patches of land people have died there. Any large high traffic areas going to have a shared death? Do you actually know that roughly a hundred people die every year in Disneyland? Roughly two a week. Almost fifty percent of the deaths have occurred on splash mountain. Do you know that sometimes I lie about south? And sometimes they make up things actually actually at least nine people have actually died at Disneyland. This is true September fifth two thousand three I notice had nothing to do today story. But I had once I throw that line there. I had to look for the truth found out that real fact and then found out this on September fifth two thousand three twenty two year old man Marquel? Torres or more settled Torres of Gardena California died and several other guests were injured when a locomotive separate from the train along a tunnel section of big thunder mountain road. I'd not kidding Torres. Bled to death after suffering blunt force trauma. The chest fac what terrible place to die right to die on a ride at a place to bills itself as the happiest place on earth. But I am not here to try to make you scared to go to Disneyland. I'm here to try to make you scared to go to national parks or something like that. According to Grand Canyon park. Spokes. A spokeswoman Kirby Lynn Schakowsky another police person roughly twelve deaths occur each year at the Grand Canyon, including those from national causes medical problems. Suicide heat drowning in traffic crashes on average two to three deaths per year from actual falls over the rim. That's what she says. But Tom Myers author of over the edge deaths in the Grand Canyon. He thinks that number is way too low. He reports that around eight hundred people have died in the park since it opened February twenty six nine thousand nine hundred nineteen which would be roughly eighty Desi year as a as a little bit more than twelve while there's quite a disagreement over how many people die each year in the park. Everyone agrees that people do die and not all of them die from natural causes or from a fall over the edge when trying to get that perfect selfie, which does happen. Some Darwin awards going out of Grand Canyon a variety of murders have occurred at the park over the years. Now, let's talk about Robert Spangler nineteen Seventy-eight Robert Spangler shot. His wife Nancy and their two children to death in their suburban Denver home. And he didn't staged the scene to make it look as if Nancy killed their children in a murder suicide despite his hands testing positive for gun residue and despite detectives being suspicious of Robert from the very start the police just didn't have enough evidence to build a case against this widower. Now, what does that murder have to do with the Grand Canyon as nice late incident? Nothing it's his next murder that involves the park while we're bringing him up today. Robert Wood Mary and kill again fifteen years later while they at the Grand Canyon in nineteen Ninety-three who subtle bitch. Threw his third wife Donna over the edge. Just fucking through down the canyon she plunged over two hundred feet to her death. Detectives again were suspicious, but they didn't have enough evidence to prove anything they could not prove that she didn't accidentally slip and lose her balance, and he got away with murder again, then in two thousand he was diagnosed with terminal cancer and an investigator Paul Goodman, a guy who'd never. Forgot about Robert went his doorstep in the hope that he just might be ready to confess what he actually did before he died in this. This investigator was correct and Spangler confessed to all four murders. Mostly because he wanted FBI profiles to tell him. Why he was so good at killing not because he fucking shit about murdering his own children and two of his wife's he was sent to life in prison in marshy dolls in one. And then he died of cancer five months later, and how does this extra weird detail related the Grand Canyon? His second wife. The only one of the three he didn't murder wrote a book on the Grand Canyon on foot in the Grand Canyon, hiking trails of the south room before he killed his third wife, and I just wonder if he used his ex-wife guide to find a good spot to throw his current wife off a fucking cliff. My god. There have been numerous other Grand Canyon murders over the years. Many of them unsolved in January of nineteen seventy seven the bodies of Michael Charlotte. Sherman were discovered after having been shot execution style in two thousand six swimmers. Discover the body of a thirty four year old Japanese tourist blow waterfall she'd been stabbed twenty nine times. And she and her body was reminiscent of a nother murder of Japanese tourists who was stabbed to death the south rim of the canyon several years earlier, actually, how hard to say how many murders have been committed in the Grand Canyon because they're oftentimes isn't a weapon involved. The park is the weapon when somebody's bodies found at the bottom of a cliff hard to say if they slipped jumped or pushed or thrown over. Recently on October first two thousand eighteen to hikers traverse to cliff about one hundred feet below the south from the Grand Canyon. They were almost as the social trail, which is a trail not recognized by the National Park Service, but created overtime lots of visitors. This particular social social trail runs under the trail view are trail to overlook one of the parks most popular destinations on a clear day. You can see the full expanse the canyon from his overlook as the two hikers made their way around the base to cliff. They came across the bodies of a couple in what park spokesman person carry Cobb calls close proximity to one another neither of the deceased carried any identification with them, nor was there any evidence. They brought a backpack water or other supplies not clear. How long they've been dead or how they died. Their bodies were eventually identified as Garrett bonkowski twenty-five Jessica bar twenty two both from pure area. Arizona suburb of Phoenix they've been recorded entering the park at approximately three thirty PM on September eighteenth presumably as part of an extended road trip they were taking as relocated to Iowa. Oh. Everything else about what Bunkowsky embarks, you know, how they died on the trail of what they did remains a mystery that will probably never be solved did one push the other over the edge then overcome with guilt throw themselves down to their death as well did one fall to the other bravely trying to save them only to fall as well did a third party push both of them over the edge. Did they both voluntarily jump? Did. They will slip without witnesses or security Cam footage. You just don't know. There have also been a number of deaths that were clearly suicides at the Grand Canyon. The first one. I read about is probably the craziest suicide I have ever heard of after watching the film Thelma and Louise more than fifty times thirty six year old Patricia Adolpho attempted to drive her car off the rim and straight into the Grand Canyon. Just like in the movie except without the police cornering her and her being wanted for murder. She drove solo so parents she was not able to find a Louise to go with her Thelma. I wonder if she tried to recruit anybody, I doubt that would be a tough sell. That's a that's a tough one to find this. Oh, my God fell in Louise is your favorite movie to oh, we should totally watch together. And then we can just drive my car to the Grand Canyon. Yeah. Okay. We yeah. We should tell you that Patricia. Do you really want to? I'll I'll drive I'm free to drive us over the cliff next Monday. We are are you fucking serious. No. There was a movie Susan Sarandon and Gena Davis. Didn't actually drive off a cliff. You know that right? Okay. Stop at Kim. Just because you don't wanna drive off a cliff me doesn't mean Huckleberry room favorite movie. Patricia really did try this pedal to the metal. She drove straight to the edge. And then the car suspension got caught a little outcropping of rock unable to drive over the edge her car now fucked up she could have interpreted this as a sign she wasn't supposed to die that day. Nope. She gets out of the car walks over to the edge of the cliff and now throws herself off and still doesn't die. She lands twenty feet six meters below bloodied bruised but still alive. I think that Austin powers, but I'm still alive. I think was like will Ferrell falls in the trap door, I'm badly burned. But still alive the second time. It's just a few minutes. She has now tried to kill herself in the universe is intervened. Said hold up. I are you sure you don't have to do this. You don't have to make this decision. He doesn't have to be so permanent. But she does she tries a third time to kill herself. She crawls to the edge of the cliff. She had just jumped down to an and she's so beat up. She can't even like like jump off. She rolls off of the cliff and now dice. Man that is a suicide attempt that is not a cry for help that is a scream of IM fucking out of here. So sad to chances to stop and think I shouldn't do this. But you're listen, and she's not the only person to attempt suicide by driving your car off a cliff into the Grand Canyon in two thousand nine fifty seven year old George Chirac checks out of the L to Avar hotel. Then drives his car straight over the edge of the south rim proving once and for all that men really do drive better than women. And I know it's a terrible joke. It's tasteless. It's fucking tasteless. But come on it practically wrote itself. I know. It's sad. I know it's set, but those two back it's like it's like the ball was right there on the t. Back in two thousand and four man in his twenties committed a very unusual suicide when I know that so messed up. I might get some emails over that one. But back in two thousand four minutes twenty s committed a very unusual suicide we he jumped out of a helicopter while on a scenic tour the other passengers described him as seeming quiet and normal before. Leaping into the deepest part of the canyon four thousand feet below now. And I know this is also super dark, you guys know based on other episodes. I guess if you're a new listener, you know, we've donated his suicide prevention charities, I'm very against it. But there's already happened would have been pretty funny if the other passers of the helicopter would have described him as being like, very impatient. Right. Like, I don't know. He seemed pretty annotated right before the jump. I mean, he said he forgot he made some plans with some friends who hiked the bottom, and he said he was running late. He has the pilot to quickly take him to the bottom win the pilot refused. He just muttered like no fuck Athena's fucking do myself. And then he just jumped. All of these deaths. I know tragic and say have led to some alleged haunting 's located just twenty feet just six meters from the south rim, the El Tovar hotel are just mentioned was the height of luxury when it opened for business nine hundred five and it's been haunted pretty much from day. One. At least according to numerous guests with sworn to have seen strange dark figures wandering about the buildings rooms and hallways. Now, maybe some of the haunting that have occurred since nineteen thirty four have to do with a dude who was buried right in front of the fucking hotel is a true story. Just a few feet from the building's front doors. Lies a flat, inconspicuous. Gravestone with an epitaph that reads Pearl a ward eighteen seventy nine to nineteen thirty four. Why would you bear some Barry somebody right outside the front door ever since the mid thirties? Countless visitors employees have claimed to see a black caped figure walking from the stairway to the grave sites before wandering off and disappearing into the woods. The Cape is a weird touch. If I had to see a ghost walk into a grave. I think I prefer to have them not have a Cape. Kate makes them seem malicious. Sinister right. Who has a fucking Cape. Creeps and nuts. That's who came asking. If you showed up to a first date and your date was wearing a Cape, highly doubt, your reaction would be like fuck out finally found the one you're only thinking that. If you're also some silly goose who wears a Cape to places. Many other visitors over the years of claim to have witnessed at well-dressed elderly gentlemen on the third floor some guests of even reported being invited by that man to attend to hotels annual holiday celebration for the last several years, the TV in the hotel's lobby will suddenly turn a self on a play Thelma. And Louise if it's unplugged. Always plays the scene of the car going over the cliff, and that's not true. But that'll be scared at work, right? And now because of my bad jokes. I made I'm kind of worried that my TV's who do that it will it will for sure be the death of this podcast if that happens because I will I will literally die from fright. Okay. No, more Grand Canyon death. Let's get wackadoo ADL with my favorite Grand Canyon story. So far. This is great in April of ninety nine the Zona gazette published a lengthy story about an explorer from Idaho, Idaho, finding a gigantic hidden city in a Grand Canyon cave. I want to read you. I'm going to read you two articles about his explore in his discovery and remind you that these stories were printed in an actual newspaper, a reputable newspaper in Phoenix that would go on to become the Phoenix is in the Zona Republic. This paper has been published in some form all the way from eighteen ninety five nineteen Ninety-seven. This story was presented his actual news. The first article about the man who found a loss dejection sitting Arizona was printed on March twelfth nine thousand nine and it says, gee, can Kate of lewiston, Idaho. Arrived at Yuma after trip from green river lion down the entire course of the Colorado river, he is the second man to make this journey and came alone in a small skiff stopping at his pleasure that that's real as I didn't to investigate these surrounding country. He left green river in October having a small covered boat with ORs and carrying a fine camera with which he secured over seven hundred views of the river and canyons which were unsurpassed Michigan cage says that one of the most interesting features of the trip was passing through the sluice way. At Laguna dam. He made this perilous passage with only the loss of an or some interesting, archaeological discoveries were unearthed and altogether. The trip was of such interest that he will repeat it next winter in the company of friends, and they love to say pleasure reckoned in he stopped at his pleasure and joined the one touch of his own body is you floated down the cold, Colorado. Seriously, nothing to interesting so far. Right. We'll check out this next article, apparently, Mr. Kincaid could not wait until next winter to bring his friends down to Arizona because he had found the coolest thing ever this next article published a few weeks later in April fifth is fucking fantastic. This is a work of wackadoo art. I love that. It was printed. When you hear this? Try to imagine yourself reading this in Phoenix in one thousand nine it's a small sunbaked desert city only only about ten thousand people that time the town based in farming largely and being a stop along the railroad a new railroad made it a good spot to ship goods from the southwest back east. You know, imagine that you're used to reading articles about what's going. On back in Washington DC about the construction of some new dams in the area. They're gonna bring more water for more crops about railroad progress. The passing of some locals the bursts marriages locals some land going up for sale, maybe an article or two about the former sucks subject poncho via you know, involved in some shootouts, some some Tom foolery around the Mexican border. You're used to that kind of stuff and then one day in April you read this shit. The latest news of the progress of the explorations of what is now regarded by scientists is not only the oldest archaeological discovery in the United States, but one of the most valuable in the world, which was mentioned some time ago because it was brought to the city yesterday by GE can Cade the explorer who found the great underground citadel of the Grand Canyon during the trip from green river, Wyoming down the Colorado in a wooden boat to Yuma several months ago because with this several months ago because the article just came out the month before, but anyway, according to the story related to the zapped by Mr. Kincaid, the archaeologist. The Smithsonian institute, which is financing the expeditions have made discoveries which almost conclusively prove that the race which inhabited this mysterious cavern Hyun in solid rock by human hands was of oriental origin, possibly from Egypt tracing back to Ramsey's. If they're theories are born out by the translation of the tablets engraved with hieroglyphics the mystery of the prehistoric peoples of North America their engine arts who they were and Wednesday came we'll be solved Egypt in the Nile, the Zona and the Colorado. We'll be linked by historical chain running back through the ages, which staggers the wildest fence he of the fiction est in the next section says they thorough examination under the direction of professor s eight Jordan the Smithsonian institute is now proceeding with the most thorough explorations, which will be continued until the last link in the chain is forged nearly a mile underground about fourteen hundred feet below the surface. The long main passage has been delved into to find another mammoth chamber from which radiate scores of passageways like the spokes of a wheel. Several hundred rooms have been discovered reached by passageways running from the main passage one of them having been explored for eight hundred fifty four feet and another six hundred thirty four feet. The recent finds include articles which have never been known as native to this country and doubtless they had their origin in the orient war weapons. Copper instruments sharp edged in heart. A steel indicate the highest state of civilization reached by these strange people so interested have the scientists become that preparations are being made to a the camp for extensive studies and the force will be increased to thirty or forty persons key. Finding a measuring this some huge underground city has been discovered in the Grand Canyon, and is connected Egyptians and the writer keeps saying the orient, which is weird was Egypt, which is part of Africa considered part of the orient at some point. I guess I guess maybe by some people so wonder if you will weird. Okay. So he goes he goes on Mr. cage reported says, Mr. Kincaid was the first white child born, and I. Idaho, and has been an explorer and hunter all his life thirty years having been in the service of the Smithsonian institute, even briefly recounted his history sounds fabulous. Almost go task. I I would impress. This is Mr. Kincaid. Now, I I would impress the cavern is nearly inaccessible. The entrance is fourteen. Eighty six feet down the sheer canyon wall. It is located on government land novato will be allowed there. Under penalty of trespass. The scientists wished to work on molested without fear of archaeological discoveries being disturbed by Curiel. Or really counters a trip. There would be fruitless and the visit would be sent on his way the story of how I found the covered has been related but in a paragraph. I was journeying down the Colorado river, a boat alone. Looking for mineral some forty two miles up the river from the L two of our crystal canyon. I saw on the east wall stains in the sedimentary formation about two thousand feet above the riverbed. There was no trail at this point. But I finally reached it with great difficulty about two shelf, which hit it from view from the river was the mouth of the cave above show. Excuse me. There are steps leading from this entrance. Some thirty odds to what was at the time. The cavern was inhabited the level of the river. When I saw the chisel marks on the wall inside the entrance. I became interested. Securing my gun, and I went in during the trip. I went back several hundred feet along the main passage till I came to the krypton which I discovered the mummies one of these I stood up in photograph by flashlight gathered a number of relics, which I carry down the Colorado to Yuma from whence. I ship them to Washington with details of the discovery following this the explorations were undertaken if this article was written in the past two decades. I would swear some fucking looney toon watched Indiana Jones movies. They watched him way too, many times, maybe tomb raider. Didn't just went crazy. Like, I love the whole. I found the coolest thing ever, but he'll buy they're looking at because the police will arrest you, they'll send you on your way trespassing, so don't don't come. Check out the coolest thing anyone's ever found not fishy at all. And again, imagine imagine you're sitting in some dusty saloon in Phoenix drinking some shitty coffee, but a little whiskey so can your own sweat from the devilish heat. And then you read that, you know, this is some home nego Salem. I wanna feel like a real he'll this just some groups gripped, and it continues says the the passages. The main passageway is about twelve feet wide, narrowing to nine feet toward the father end about fifty seven feet from the entrance. The first side passages branch off to the right and left along which on both sides or a number of rooms about the size of an ordinary living room of today, though, some are thirty by forty feet square. These are entered by oval shape, doors, and are ventilated by round airspaces through the walls into passages. The. The walls are about three feet six inches in thickness. The passages are chiseled or Hyun straight is could be laid out by an engineer. The ceilings of the many of the rue many of the rooms converge to a center the side pastures near the entrance. Rented a sharp angle from the main hall but toward the rear. They gradually reached right angle and direction the shrine over one hundred feet from the entrance is the cross all several hundred feet long in which are found the idol or image of the people's God sitting cross legged with a Lotus flower or Lillian each hand, the cast of the faces oriental and the carving this cavern the idol almost resembles Buddha, though, the scientists are not certain as to what religious worship it represents taking into consideration. Everything found us far it's possible to this worship most resembles the ancient people of time pet. Okay. So it's not a gypsum. Maybe some ancient culture this spawned. The Egyptians, man. It's probably Atlantis. Probably probably it surrounding this idler smaller images, some very beautiful inform others crooked, Nick and distorted shape. Symbolical probably of good and evil. There are two large cactus with. Protruding arms one on each side of the dice on which the gods squats. So it's a weird cat has God that is also Tibetan. And is also a chip, you know, what it almost seems like he's making all this shit up. All this is carved out of hard rock, resembling marble. Oh, get fucking marble now in the grain in the opposite corner of this cross. All we're found tools of all descriptions made of carpet. These people undoubtedly knew the lost art of hard in this metal which has been sought by chemicals for centuries without result on a bench running around the workroom with some charcoal. Another material probably used in the process, there is also slag and stuff similar to Matt showing that these ancient smelted ores. But so far no trace of way, or how this was done or has been discovered nor the origin Dior among the other fines or vases, urns cups of copper and gold made very artistic and design. The pottery work includes enameled ware, and glazed vessels, another passageway leads to granaries such as those that are found in the oriented temples. They contain seeds of various kind bullshit seats. One very large storehouse has not yet been entered as it is twelve feet high and can be reached only from above to copper hooks extend on the edge, which indicate that some sort of ladder was attached. These granaries are rounded as the materials of which they are constructed. I think is a very hard cement a gray. Metal is also found in this cavern which puzzles the scientists for its identity has not been established symbols platinum strewn promiscuously over the floor everywhere. What people call cats is a Yellowstone of no great value. Each one is in grave with the head of malay- type the hieroglyphics on all the earns a Wald's over doorways the tablets of stone which were found by the image of the mysterious hieroglyphics the key to which the Smithsonian institute hopes yet to discover the engraving on the tables probably has something to do. With the religion of the people similar hieroglyphics have been found in southern Arizona. Among the pictorial writings only to animals are found one is of prehistoric type the crypt the tomb of krypton, which the mummies were found is one of the largest. The chambers. The wall slanting back at an angle of about thirty five degrees on these are tears of mummies each one occupany occupied a separate Hyun shelf at the head of each is a small bench on which is found. Copper cups and pieces of broken source. Some of the mummies are covered with clay all wrapped in bark fabric, the earns of cups on the lower tiers are crude while is the higher shelves are reached the earned the final design showing a later stage of civilization is worthy of note that all the mummies examined so far do Email. No children are females being buried this leads to the belief the exterior section was the warriors barracks. Among the discoveries. No bones of animals have been found. No skins, no clothing bedding. Many of the rooms are bad. But for the water vessels one room about forty seven hundred feet was probably the main dining hall for cooking utensils have been found. What these people lived on his a problem, though, it is presumed that is a problem and your fucking make LSU up though, it is presumed that they came south in the winter and formed in the valley's going back north in the summer. Upwards of fifty thousand people could have lived in the caverns comfortably won theory is that the present Indian drives found in Arizona are descendants of the slaves of the people who inhabited the cave undoubtedly a good many thousand of years bef- thousands of years before the Christian era. A people lived here who reached a high stage of civilization the chronicle the chronology of human history is full of gaps. Professor Jordan is much enthused over the discoveries and believes that the will find will prove of incalculable value in archaeological work, so let me get this shit straight, very advanced civilization capable of carving out the space for a giant city in the rock of the Grand Canyon a civilization reliant on agriculture. Why wouldn't they build their civilization? I don't know maybe fucking closer to the fields where where people actually grow shit. Why would you build it way in the bottom of a canyon cave? Like why Bill in place that is the biggest pain in the ass to get to a place where you don't have room to farm. There's no livestock to graze down there. A place. Where if you hunt for food if to fuck in drag your kills down to the bottom of the goddamn Grand Canyon seems a tad bit party plant that that to me is the main problem with the folklore concerning underground cities. How are you gonna eat? Right. What is people eating store and all the meat or like these caves that he's don't make sense to me? Why are these people's living on fucking mushrooms and worms L the allegation do that? By the way. I don't think you probably should that. You probably shouldn't live on mushrooms worms. Probably also not too good to live in a cave where you're reading it. Now getting a lot of vitamin d you you look like shit. If you lived in a cave and ate mushrooms and wharfs does dude your skin man is falling off in fucking patches. Dude, what even living on mushrooms and worms. This. He's adly. Correct. Please excuse me what I out for mount attrition. One thing. Jesus Christ us, right? Forgot this article goes a little bit more thought we were done. He says one thing I've not spoken of which may be of interest. There is one chamber of the passageway, which is not ventilated. And when we approached a deadly snaky, smell struck us are light would not penetrate the gloom until stronger ones are available. We will not know what the chamber contains some say snakes. But others boohooed is I o the boohooed is ideal and think it may contain a deadly gas or chemicals used by the ancients. No sounds are heard, but it smells snaky just the same. The whole underground insulation. Gives one of shaking the creeps. The gloom is a way to one shoulders and our flashlights and candles only make the darkness blacker imagination can revel in conjectures ungodly daydreams back to the ages that will have elapsed till the mind reels dizzily in space, what are you reading fucking poetry? Smelling snaky, how per yeah. This whole story smells, pretty sneaky. Next action is an Indian legend in connection with his story. It is notable that among the Hopi Indians. That tradition is told that their ancestors once lived in an underworld in the Grand Canyon, tell dissension arose between the good in the bed the people of one heart and the people of two hearts, which Eto who was the chief counsel them to leave the underworld. But there was no way out the chief in caused a tree to grow up in pierced, the roof of the underworld and the people of one heart climbed out they Terry by the Red River, which is the Colorado and grew grain and corn. They sent out a message to the temple of the sun asking the blessing of peace. Goodwill and rain for the people of one heart that messenger, never return. But today at the Hopi villages at sundown can be seen the old man of the tribe out on their house tops gauging towards the sun looking for the messenger. When he returns their lands in ancient dwelling place, we'll be restored to them that is the in among the engravings of animals in the cave was seeing the image of a heart over the. Spot. Where is located the legend was learned by w Rollins the artists during a year spent with Hopi Indians. Man. Fuck it's all coming together. Man Egyptians Indians. It's all part of the same. Ancient advanced culture. I get why kept saying or it. Now, man, you know, they make sense this. Now, the story is you as you can imagine caused a huge sensation when it was published, and as you can imagine it was almost immediately discredited the Smithsonian has no record of either of these scientists nor their discoveries and firmly quells any claim that addition artifacts have been found anywhere in north or South America. Also, no one was able to find the giant caves there were in about no evidence of a civilization described in this area and outside of the story. There is no proof of anyone named GE Kate. There's no Idaho born explore name net. There is no professor essay, Jordan. This Massoni has no record of someone of either name everyone fucking anything for them considering the lack of evidence in a pure off the wall sensation of the report, it seems like there's a very good chance that this was just a hoax perpetrated by the newspaper to sell. More copies of the paper which did happen from time to time with old paper. They would just write insane stories to sell papers despite this being an obvious hoax. There are a lot of people who still believe this tale today. This story has woven into the fabric of wacky doodles. Other fringy authors explores have claimed to find the same cave conspiracy. Theorist John Rhodes, he claims to know the secret of the cave. Although, of course, he won't say where it is. He says it's constantly guarded by armed security ad that has become the base of operations for a shadowy secret luminosity type society, of course, it has and my favorite wacky doodle. David Ike the man behind the lizard illuminate conspiracy. The man behind the conspiracy about alien lizards ruling the earth he believes in this city. I believe that the Kincaid cave system. Not only exists, but is one of the villains. Most important underground cities right up there with the Denver airport in his nine hundred ninety nine masterpiece. The biggest secret a copy rest here in the sucked. Engine Ike writes in one thousand nine subterranean city, which was built with the precision of the great. Pyramid was found by GE Kincaid near the Grand Canyon in Arizona. It was big enough to accommodate fifty thousand people and the mummified bodies found were of oriental or possibly a gypsy origin. According to the experts expedition leader, professor essay, Jordan, my own research suggests that it is from another dimension the lower fourth dimension where the ripped Ilian control and manipulation is primarily orchestrated. Right another. Well, researched fact, spread to the masses by truth seeker by truth. Spreader David Ike. No, let's see what the mass is think about this lost city in today's idiots of the internet. The internet. Okay. I today I found a video titled GE can Cade Egyptian artifacts in the grand. Canyon is published on July fifth two thousand seventeen by ancient mystery, the videos descriptions, pretty sweet, it says the Egyptians Grand Canyon the Egyptian artifacts and the real history of the mighty unforgiving grand. Canyon all start by bringing this to your attention, prime minister, new bar Pasha of Egypt was first prime minister of Egypt was the first is supposed to and served. His first term from January eighteen four eight eighty four to June eighteen eighty eight he contacted the US department of state and requested that all of the artifacts found in the Grand Canyon to be returned to Egypt. He also requested that no more information about a shins ever being in the Grand Canyon be published by this Massoni institution. So it seems this Massoni has also been silenced at around the same time giant discoveries. We're increasing GE can Cade served in the Marine Corps. After retiring he worked for essay, Jordan as an archaeologist Jordan was. Into the Grand Canyon by the Smithsonian to to investigate the information. That was reported by John Wesley Powell the tunnel is presently on cliff wall three hundred ninety five feet above the present flow of the Colorado river in the Grand Canyon archaeologists estimate that meant that the man made cavern is around three thousand years old watch video for more information on the in the Grand Canyon found by GE Kincaid mythology explored by ancient mystery on YouTube. Okay. The only true parts of that description is that there really was an explorer named John Wesley Powell who did it for the Grand Canyon in eighteen sixty nine, but he did not find gypsum anything. Fucking nothing. Also, new Pasha was the first prime minister of Egypt. But he never demanded that this Massoni return ancient Egyptian artifacts found in the Grand Canyon to Egypt because it never happened any any. Of course, never demanded that the Smithsonian to be silent. And even if he did who gives a fuck what Egypt thinks like that's such a ridiculous thing. Like, I mean, no offense. If we like a. Option listeners, but Egypt has never been even close to a military threat to the United States like Egypt could ask us or demand. Whatever it wants. We would never listen right each. Really, hey Smithsonian. I want you talking about Egypt. We'd like we fucking give a shit. What you want? We'll take over your country. If you don't let us do more archeology digs. All right. What do you have like seventeen people in your army? So so this is this is all nonsense. This is the Mehta fairytale repeated over and over again on Janke s website to try to sell you shit like mono, Tom golden or miss. Okay. So here's the comments, Lou Hernandez posts, another amazing video. Thank you. After the report and the Phoenix newspaper in early nineteen hundreds this Smithsonian covered up, the discovery what a crime, this would completely change our history and raise many more questions, particularly with the Aztecs and Mayans the gypsies really were technologically advanced how are they able to cut these underground cities so smoothly while I'll tell you how they were able to do it loo-. They didn't do it. That's how they never did it. So it's you're able to do a lot of things when you don't actually have to do anything you when you get to make up whatever, you know fact, supposedly happened also wind God's name with the Smithsonian want to cover this up. Why would they want to cover up the single greatest greatest? Are he'll Hodge ical discovery in all of North America. If not the entire. That makes zero sense. Like, why would a museum that makes money charging people to see cool shit? Hide the coolest shit they've ever found especially when they found it in their own country on land of the government owns is the easiest fucking be the best thing that ever happened. This Massoni that's like saying an oil company has covered up the discovery of a massive amount of previously undiscovered oil discovered on land that the oil company already owns and has the right to mind. Like, there's no motive this is what kills me about so many conspiracy theorists. They have no fucking clue how to understand motive like like when there is zero motive for the conspiracy. There is no conspiracy say that over and over again, there's no conspiracy. When there's no motive Nathaniel baron posts a little time suck reference, even though I'm strongly guessing, he's not a time sucker. He says, great info. There are those that theorized that the whole canyon was man made the rock formations. Look a lot like. Like those found in the area of Sodom and Gomorrah along nimrods castle along with nimrods castle. Also, just the name a few. So I'm inclined their grammar so terrible. It's actually hard understand what they're fucking trying to say some types just an elk too. Okay. Anyway, he says I'm inclined to agree with him. I had no idea that Nimroz was building amazing cities halio Nimrod. Now, I by Nimrod bills a city in a bottle of the Grand Canyon for the cult of the curious to live in when Armageddon hits it makes sense. That's when we go full coat. That's when we start having so much sex with each other. And we wait for the end of the world because I do think that at some point if you're a Colt, right? I think you have to go to a compound in you have to fuck it to their whole bunch and wait for the end of the world. I'm pretty sure that's in one of the first five rules of how to start a cult, which is a book. I'm sure someone who's probably in summer there actually are those who theorize that the that. The canyon was manmade. They're called maniacs in wackadoo hills. Den bow post never heard of this before. Of course, you haven't it's nonsense. That's the reason you haven't heard of it. It's gobbly Gook user tan min eleven o seven post them gibberish that prompts. Ancient mystery the channel to respond with a comment proven he or she is even more insane than I initially thought ten men posts. Do you believe the earth is flat? Have you heard the theory of mountains being gigantic trees that were cut down like devils tower, for instance, for fuck sake. Apparently, there are people who believe that the earth is flat. And that mountains are just a giant tree stumps. And then ancient mysteries responded with. I don't trust NASA. If they say, we live on a globe. I don't believe them credibility LOL. Credibility nasa. The rocks do appear to be stops. This is a real belief. There's actually belief among some flatter authors. That what we call forests are just tiny remnants of ancient of ancient vibrant world one that featured trees with trunks as big as mountains trees that reached the heavens some people believe that the things we call forests are in reality, just low lying bushes at the impoverished remains of an ecologically rich world that held forty mile high trees with trunks two miles across and how do we know this happened that they they left her there? Trump's tree stumps. Use me behind flattop mountains are actually remnants of behaving just giant trees cut down by large machines. Right. Those those same machines Doug all the canyons like the great canes like the Grand Canyon river valleys. They're just old quarry mines. They're cliffs have been, you know, by machines volcanoes are actually just heaps of industrial waste left behind from big big machines that ravaged the earth, toxic chemicals inside them. React, you know, generating heat and fire. That's what makes explosions why does certain people think this because it's how the world looks to them. Seriously, the earth appears flats so therefore it must be flat. They stand on a beach look out the ocean. It's flat world, not flat. These same people will look at devils tower in Wyoming and be like that are a giant tree stump. So therefore must be giant tree stump. You know, it's just that that logic of if something looks like something it must be that thing. It's fucking idiotic de people have no understanding of math known understanding of geology. Just a believe what I see that looks like something must be the thing. Robert Shrewsbury is apparently also an explorer, and he too is found evidence of ancient Egyptian life beneath the Arizona desert, of course. Yes, he posts from my work. I found several AGIP tunnels like can Cates cave. However, they would need to be handled with care, my machinery can detect a void or tunnel. Up to several hundred feet deep. These tunnels are about two thousand feet long and close to the little Colorado, connecting the larger Grand Canyon. I also get good readings on medals down deep with machinery, you gotta you gotta love post. It starts off with from my work immediately. You know, you're listening to a maniac from my work. I two of concluded that not all aliens. Do mean us harm from my work. I have determined that the city of Atlanta's is in fact, still inhabited by Moore people from my work. I have this is that my mother will begin to start letting me stale past ten pm on the weekends. Once I turn thirty five. She'll let me use my machinery. This guy didn't have any replies under this fantastic comment. So I thought about Addy one I actually typed out from my work. I was able to determine that you have no idea what you're fucking talking about. And the only tunnel you've ever found was discovered the day you were born, and that's your mother's vagina. But I didn't post it because it felt cruel Filipina Bali fellow just writing something that wasn't gonna convince Robert Shrewsbury or probably anybody else to no longer be in idiot of the internet. Injured. Okay. So now for one final quick Grand Canyon legend before we move onto another park. One of the tribes that inhabited the canyon long before European settlers showed up was the Hopi. And hope he believed in the God Masada the supposed keeper of death. And if you see strange lights coming towards you from within the canyon at night or you hear a faint tapping of rocks. Must saw is coming for you. Many canyon explores have allegedly experienced nausea anxiety short after hearing these rocks. Clanking large number of accidents have allegedly occurred following the sound of Masada. Excuse me. So maybe missiles tossing people off cliffs here and there, maybe he built the hidden AGIP city. Maybe he's fucking tired of people driving cars and do his canyon and literate up who knows time now for our next park in our next set of mysteries. Yosemite national park while Yellowstone became America's first national park in eighteen seventy two you'll seventy national park is actually the first wilderness site that the US government decided to protect in eighteen sixty four win conservationists convinced. Abraham mother fucking Lincoln to declare Yosemite valley and the Mariposa grove of giant soco's a public trust of California. This marked the first time the US government protected land for public enjoyment. And laid the foundation for the establishment of the national and state park systems on October first eighteen ninety congress set aside over fifteen hundred square miles about the size of Rhode Island for America's third a national park Yosemite. Located in the Sierra Nevada mountain range, just over one hundred fifty miles due east San Francisco home of El capitan, giant granite cliff that stands tall above Yosemite valley, one of the most popular rock climbing destinations in the world. There are ancient groves of sequoias, and so many waterfalls, but who gives us shit about nature day where we get weird. Right. We're let's let's talk about who's visiting the park. Let's talk about visitors who don't pay park entrance deuce because they're not from this planet, and they feel like they're above the law. Let's talk about some cheap ass UFO's on the evening September nineteenth two thousand to a strange disk appeared in the sky over Yosemite. National park a number of people captured the supposedly alien craft on video it is now recognized as one of some of the best UFO footage ever taken moments after the strange object was seen in the sky air force jets arrived and circled the area, but the pilots were unable to find anything. What did those people see in two thousand two and this incident is just one of many alleged UFO encounters that have occurred in Yosemite national park with numerous visitors claiming to have seen strange, lights and sky. Now, some of dismissed the sightings meteors or just optical illusions. But what is the truth? Now, I've watched this video to me, it looks like it's some sort of rocket to me, it looks like something probably from this world. But that's just me. And I'm just looking at one of many sightings. Who knows? I mean, Fresno, California less than sixty miles from the park. There have been so many sightings of similar looking pale long legged bipedal entities between Fresno and Yosemite. That people have actually started calling these creatures Fresno nightcrawlers, and they don't scare me one bit. I'm not even fucking scared. You guys 'cause it's a light outside right now and not alone. And I'm a long way from Fresno. I was you'll very differently if I was camping out in the dark Yosemite and saw some weird lights. In addition aliens Yosemite may also be cursed. Have we ever talked about a curse on this up before? Yes, the Mothman suck in that suck reference a curse on the land around point pleasant West Virginia where chief corn stock was murdered in seventeen seventy seven by some dirty dealing commander of fort Randolph for crimes he never committed. And it was believed by some to the land was put under a curse for one hundred years. And now have another curse that has to do with American Indians being dealt dirty hand by some white settlers come on white settlers stopped doing curse worthy shit. When white settlers I arrive in Yosemite valley, they encountered a tribe of American Indians called the Awani who are a peaceful people, but also prone to occasionally post a little bit of livestock from their new neighbors an eighteen fifties. A new sellers decided they'd had enough of sharing the land with the locals who kept taking their shit, which I do understand. But also kind of hypocritical. Right. There's a little bit of an additive. Hey, win come over here and steal your land. Just to have you steal the shit that we put on the land we still for you. Where's your integrity? And I know I know I know it's more complicated than that the sellers weren't stealing land. They were legally settling land at their government had taken. But if you're a member of the Wani from their perspective, these motherfuckers still your land. And now, they won't even share their livestock with you, not cool. The settlers sought to relocate you wanted to a reservation near Fresno. The normally peaceful Awani led by chief tonight. You did not feel like moving understandable. I of new folks show up when you land without asking. And now, they think the land is theirs. And now they want you off. That land the Wani refused to leave to the settlers. Call for the army contingent of our men led by captain, John bowling show, up to forcibly remove the tribe and things go anything but smoothly instead of fleeing in fear when the troops show up the Awami fight back during the ensuing gunfight chief tonight, his son is killed and he invokes a curse on the valley and a curse against the white man legend has it the chief blared out this curse as he was confronted by an armed captain during the battle. He's supposedly said kill me, captain. Yes. Kill me. As you killed my son as you would kill my people if they were to come to you. You would kill all my race. If you had the power, you have made me sorrowful, my life dark you kill the child of my heart. Why not kill the father? You may kill me. So captain, but you shall not live in peace. I will follow in your footsteps. I will not leave my home, but be with the spirits among the rocks. The waterfalls in the rivers and in the wind wherever you go. I will be with you. You will not see me, but you will fear. Or the spirit of the old chief in grow cold. That's a fucking intense shit as doesn't good curse I've ever heard one since that fateful day tonight canyon, and by some accounts, the whole Yosemite valley has been plagued by all sorts of freak accidents strange deaths mishaps unexplained phenomena such as unexplained noises such a shadowy apparitions fucking shadow people. Of course, they're part of that curse. That the scariest things in existence. There are supposedly far more incidents of rock climbing and hiking accidents and fatalities tonigh- in that area than other places in the park. So many people have gone missing that that the area has earned itself. The ominous nickname of the Bermuda triangle of Yosemite, even the legendary naturalist and extremely experienced mountaineer John where was not immune to the supposed curse he had a near fatal accident while exploring the canyon in eighteen seventy three he wrote about it later nine thousand eighteen in his book steep trails writing, I was ascending precipitous rock front smooth by glacial action. When I suddenly fell for the first time, I touched foot to see our rocks after several somersaults, I became insensible from the shock, and when consciousness returned found myself wedged among short stiff bushes. I cannot remember what made me fall or where I'd fallen from. But I saw that if I had rolled a little further my mountain climbing would have been finished for just beyond the bushes. The canyon wall Stephen, and I might have fallen to the bottom. Also, the official park trail guide map marks a hike through the cursed land in stark red with a disclaimer that says hiking in tonight canyon is dangerous or excuse me as dangerous and is strongly discouraged are now talking about some huntings. We've talked about you a foes talked about curse land. What else has happened in Yosemite? Ghosts the majestic Yosemite hotel, formerly known as the Awani hotel named after the previously mentioned doom tribe is supposedly full of all kinds of spirits and spooky creepy shit. Open in nineteen twenty seven the Awani hotel. Immediately became one of America's premier vacation destinations. It was a large luxurious hotel built in an area known for mostly camping small lodges. It's elegant yet rustic organic feel and the majestic grandeur of its scenic surroundings committed a very popular spot. And now, it's popular with ghost hunters one spirit said to inhabit the hotel is the ghost of Mary Currie transmitter Mary was part of the hotel's design. She was part of the hotel's opening. She lived in a hotel for most of her life died in her private apartment inside the hotel nineteen seventy and her spirit supposedly lingers on the sixth floor where her room was located sightings of ever. Ghost are frequently reported by both staff and guests Mary has been reported to tuck and visitors as a sleep folder, close misplace items around rooms, and even occasionally call out to guess sounds like a pretty friendly ghost. Really how weird would it be tucked in by ghost like like, I think that'd be super scared at first to see the covers move, maybe even paralyzed with fear. But then maybe less scared if the ghost gently, tucked me, gently being the keyword in aggressive tuck in that doesn't make me feel safe makes you feel like you try and Chuck me out. Maybe suffocate me, no one likes to aggressive tuck, but a gentle tuck, and then fold, you know, my clothes that's a nice touch to a hotel. Stay that's not a bad haunting that's a sweet haunting I like sweet ghosts. And what if the goes happen to look like loose? Athena. Like sexiest lists FINA. Oh, man. All tattered up sexy. Fish nets black leather boots. Maybe maybe a black leather corset. Maybe some kind of garter belt situation. Some kind of black see-through through top. Maybe, you know, long thick kind of wavy black hair pulled into a ponytail of some kind. Maybe the hair shaved down to the skin on one side of the heads. Now. We're talking about a good hunting. That's that's kind of haunting. I'm into you know, I I don't I don't even mind an aggressive talk in that situation. I don't I don't mind an aggressive untucked. I don't mind a ripping off of the boxer briefs by the ghost. Maybe some other go stuff, maybe some spectral six maybe a little bit of warm goes for John doing some stuff. You know? Maybe that's okay. Maybe I should stop turning this episode and system creepy goes porn, maybe get back into national parks. Maybe I've just made this real weird for people listening with their kids. You know, I just want to say go sex if I'm going to be haunted. That's what I want. Now, another spirit said to inhabit, the Awami hotel is connected to a rocking chair. Air kept in the room that former suck subject and US president John F Kennedy the efforts for fuck John Kennedy. He stayed into that'd be so great. That was true. What is it's fuck actually, John Kennedy. It's john. Fuck fighter. Kill Kennedy is his name. He said he stayed there. During a visit nineteen sixty two a year before he become infamously assassinated at the at the time that shared been putting the room in the president's request because he had back pain. If you remember from that, south is back was hurting a lot. He reportedly spent a long time in the chair, call me rocking way, the chair was removed from the room when he left, but oddly since his death, a spectral rocking chair as often reported moving on its own in rooms and halls throughout the hotel's third floor, which is where his room was an especially these has been reported in the actual room itself. And the chair always seems to rock back and to the left back into the left could not help myself against ghost rocking chair. That's that's the scary to me if it's rocking gently and again, gently being key here, if it's an aggressive sparked like rocking back and forth. Like super unnaturally fast. Fuck that I grabbed my bags. I think goes for folding on my clothes. I think. The sex ghost for the sex. And I go home while the rocking chair and the goes to Mary Currie trumpeter are the most often cited spirits, they're not the only ones strange noises disembodied footsteps other apparitions haven't witnessed they actually helped inspire. The look in his or excuse me. The look of this hotel actually helped inspire the overlook hotel from Stanley Kubrick's classic horror film the shining. So this is like a known creepy hotel and the Yosemite. Awani hotel isn't the only haunted hotel in Yosemite national park. The Sierra sky ranch hotel is also allegedly haunted and has even scarier guests originally built in eighteen seventy seven the Sierra sky ranch start his life is a sanitarium for housing and quarantine victims of tuberculosis already getting creepy victims who lived mostly in squalor people forgotten by society, many of them died there. Many of them are kids who died there in later years. The premises became a home for veterans of World War One. And then it went on to become. Modest twenty nine room hotel. And that's what it is today. We're guest constantly report is strange excuse me, strange sightings and other paranormal activity one of the most common types of goes the occurrence at the Sierra sky ranch is that a phantom children. No, thank you. Spooky goes kids said to run up and down the stairs run up and down the halls. They can be heard doing a little creepy giggles. Doing weird whispers talking with no one's around whispers and giggles coming from the walls themselves. Fuck. No, no. Thank you gentle or not. I don't know. Why like ghost kids scare me? The most out rather if I had to pick between like a large scary ghost monster thingy or a little whispery giggly ghost kid thing. I'm gonna actually pick the monster. Goes kids man, Crete me out. These spectra children are reportedly most often cited in the media room in the main leaving room of the hotel blame for some of the poltergeist activity reported such as lights, faucets and appliances turning on and off doors opening or slamming shut guests close being tugged, what guess close being tugged by unseen hands. Oh, my that's when I die. That's my fall over dead of a heart attack. Other goes said to inhabit the Sierra sky ranch or a woman who supposedly lurks about the main house and library who smells perfume. Okay. I like that there's a ghostly bar patron who kisses bar visitors and bartenders on the cheek. All right. Okay. That's okay. And then there's the more sinister entity of a scowling angry looking man who paces around the hotel veranda and violently knocks over furniture. No. You sir can take goes kids, and you can go in the woods and violently knock around some brush, what we're known has the fucking here you there are so many tales of Huntington spirits in Yosemite national park dude entire time. Suck unjust these tales a couple we're not going to get to all of them today. But here's the last one Yosemite is most famous waterfall. Bridal veil fall cascades, six hundred seventeen feet down a sheer granite cliff. Also, maybe haunted the Awani tribe. We've spoken of believe that the the falls are haunted by an evil spirit called Bahonar Bahonar known to try and lure unsuspecting victims over the edge to their deaths. Sometimes Bahonar uses hypnotic rainbows in the midst to draw people closer, and in other cases, the spirit cries out to lure the curious to step one step too far out into the water. Sometimes Bahonar even appears as an apparition to beckon people close enough to the edge for a strong gust of wind to flip them over the false. And there are actually been a few recorded deaths over the years of people falling slipping over the fall being smashed into the rocks far below the wind super unpredictable the top of the false campers in the area. Have also reported hearing strange voices or sounds coming from the direction of the falls at night, and I actually found an audio recording. Supposedly of this of this entity recorded lab. Summer on June eleventh two thousand eighteen let me play it for you. Now have campers. Cool. Drink Chow and Domus tinian them build a gun. He has heard no spiritual. No is important anybody off no share. He just wants to hold your hand over and just feel the refers you first team more stab jars. He's trying to hear me talking to China. Tear me. On. Chow? So there's that recording. Waterfall spirit sounded sound like a drunk Woody fighting with Charles Guzman. So, you know, make it out what you wish Yosemite is also had its share of disappearance over the years are the Fresno nightcrawlers taken people is it the curse of the Awani. Is he goes maybe the most mysterious vanishing to have ever occurred at Yosemite. National park is the disappearance of fourteen year old Stacey and heiress in nine hundred eighty one. He stories always weird me out on the afternoon of July. Seventeenth nineteen Eighty-one. Aris was on a camping trip with her father and six others. At the sunrise here camp small cluster of cabins for people pass into an hikes along the popular mountain chalet. Loop airs expressed interest in taking some photos of a nearby lake. And since it was close by her dad says she was fine to go alone. Another member of the group a seventy two year old man named Gerald Stewart did decide to go with her as the to approach to lake the older man reportedly sat down to take a rest. They little break is heiress went on ahead. In the meantime, other members of the group were able to look down and see the whole thing from origi-. And they watched as eras disappeared into some trees when she didn't come back out of the trees within a reasonable length of time. The group goes and looks for her can only find the lens of a camera. No other trace of the girl whatsoever. An extensive official search of the area using helicopters and tracker dogs would have no luck finding her either. Even though they saw exactly where she disappeared. Eventually the search is called off because no one could find any evidence at all regarding what happened her park superintendent Robert Binny's would say at the time she just seems to have disappeared since she was wearing braces on her teeth or skeleton would be somewhat easy to identify. But no sign of her has ever been found. What happened or nobody knows something? She was abducted by aliens, something many people have been abducted by Elliot's Yosemite the National Park Service. They don't know because they actually also they don't keep track of missing persons in the park the National Park Service. Doesn't know how many individuals have disappeared in. Park over the years or as parks. So it makes me think about the Grand Canyon disappearances earlier who knows how many people are disappearing in the parks. David PO police or polite s- something David what David doesn't matter famous Ostra mysterious vanishing who has written numerous books on the matter in particular on those which have occurred within US national parks thinks the parks try to cover up the disappearances. He claims that during his investigation of the case park officials were vases and reticent to release any info on it when faced with a request under the freedom of information act, even going as far as to allegedly deliberately withhold and flat out hide facts relating to it. He repeatedly accused national park officials as being corrupt and suspiciously. Secretive on such mysterious disappearances is or something's going on more recently strange disappearances include the two thousand and five vanishing. A fifty one year old Michael Allen fishery who was an avid experienced hiker and backpacker on June fifteenth two thousand and five. Michael headed out to on hike along the northern end of the hetch hetchy reservoir, but at some point changes mind when of the Pacific crest trail that'd be the last time. Anyone saw him when he did not return for his wilderness permanent. Spire a search was carried out, but all that can be found was a backpack containing a topographical map a camera in a bottle of water massive search involving personnel from five counties utilizing aircraft and tracker dogs were unable to find any trace of the missing hiker and his case remains utterly unsolved in June of two thousand eleven there was the case of thirty year old George penka who was out hiking at the upper Yosemite falls with his church group during the hike fell behind the group proceeded to completely vanish off the face of the earth, despite extensive searches. No sign of him was ever found an strangely with him you seventy national park officials took down his missing persons page. Just a few weeks after he vanished. Damn you Fresno nightcrawlers Demi to hell so you meet sacks ready to book those those campus spots yet. A weird shit going on. Let's pick a different park. Now. Let's head east way east. Let's go crypto zoological. Let's go all the way to Puerto Rico and talk about the legend of the tuba Kabre right after today's sponsor. Time suck is brought to you today by hymns. I've been loving their morning blow vitamin c serum. And they're good night wrinkle cream in and I think, you know, I'm going to add their anti-aging prescription cream to my repertoire here soon sounds weird. But I like the way their stuff smells. I like. Having a nice citrusy start to my day in the morning makes you feel tropical makes me feel sunny, and then I like the chocolate coffee type smell of the good night wrinkle cream at night. And I love focus. So that smell makes me feel fancy, but it's not expensive. And that's my favorite kind of fancy. I like I prefer cheap fancy and if my Wayne ever loses its lean for him. You can help me there too. They put some stiff pride Beck into some soft. Shame Cox sexual performance issues pretty common but thanks to science erectile dysfunction. It's optional with forums dot com. Hymns connects you with real doctors and medical grade solutions to treat erectile dysfunction. They provide well known generic equivalents. Name brand prescriptions. They're not selling gas station counter supplements. So try hymns for a month today. Get started for just five bucks five bucks while supplies last see website for full details. This will cost you hundreds. If you went to the doctor or a pharmacy. Go to forums dot com slash time. Suck E D. That's F. O R H I M S dot com slash time. Suck e d forums com slash time. So easy link in the episode description now time for a UK. All right. So we now visit L UK national forest Twenty-eight thousand acres of rainforests was initially set aside in eighteen seventy six by king Alphonso the twelfth of Spain as one of the oldest nature preserves in the western hemisphere. And it became a national forest in one thousand nine hundred six located twenty minute drive. East of San Juan the rainforest is the largest block of public land on the island of Puerto Rico and also Puerto Rico's most visited natural attraction. There are over two hundred and forty species of plants and trees, no UK Tanno petroglyphs, there still may be some rare parrots none of unseen actually Sally sincere not alive. Anyway. Since the recent hurricanes Irma and Maria lots of frogs, lots of hiking trails and possibly some 'chupacabras. What is you Kara the great Nimrod? He's parts you cover Nimrod our times. God if you'll remember the giants space sasquatch the size of an entire galaxy with the head of a tuba Kavre. Who is a black unicorn with flaming stones fries. Hail nimrod. The regular old shoe macabre is a little blood drinking monster that especially likes the blood of goats, physical descriptions vary. Some report it to be heavy creature size of a small bear with a row spines reaching from the neck the base of the tail some describe it to be a reptile like creature said to have a leathery or scaly greenish grey skin and sharp spines or quills running down. His back often reported to be three to four feet tall and stands and hops in fashion similar to that of a kangaroo. Still others describe as looking like some strange Brita wild dog generally described as being mostly hairless with the pronounce spinal ridge. Unusually pronounced Izhak. Its fangs and claws, and is reported to drain all of his victims blood, and sometimes organs through three holes in the shape of a downwards pointing triangle still others describe it as a shifty eyed guy named Todd who works the cash. Register at these seven eleven on Friday and Saturday nights and never asked ID for six or beer and always wears shirts bit to unbutton to to tighten smells like cabbage. And of course, that lasted scripture is not true. This is this is not you cover. That's that's a creepy Todd, which is different creature. The Chiba cover is a strange strange beasts may come from a unique tales of macabre first emerged in Puerto Rico in the late nineteen ninety s actually specifically in nineteen ninety-five. This piece was thought to be responsible for killing and draining. The blood of livestock, which earned his nickname chip macabre Spanish for goatsucker and the first person to. Ever see this monster? We know the first sighting is Madeline Tolentino a woman from Canavan Venice, a small town east Puerto Rico, east of San Juan in Puerto Rico nineteen ninety-five she claims to a spotted a scary alien like creature out of a window. And this this little town. She lives is only about two miles from K and the legend quickly became the beast came from the park her story traveled fast, many reported sightings soon, followed soon reports of livestock were found drained of blood accompanied the sidings the legend quickly spread around the island, then the rest of Latin America into the southern US. And then it blew up online spread by UFO enthusiasts and conspiracy theories to the rest of the world, then in the early two thousands, a different Shuba Kabre arrived on the scene, the folklore evolved. This one shared some of the traits of the earlier sightings, but was a little less alien. And look this time it was described as a hairless dog like animal walking on four legs. And unlike most monsters, this type is not based exclusively on sidings Chiba cover bodies were supposedly found and then. Benjamin Radford a research fellow with the committee for skeptical inquiry began to investigate the reports of these bodies he would explain when you have a body. Everything changes, you have DNA samples you have bone samples you have more allergy. And as with all his missions Radford approach, the chew macabre with an open mind employing. Would he calls investigative skepticism? And he conducted fieldwork collected evidence and interviewed witnesses. He says I was of course, initially skeptical of the creature's existence at the same time. I was mindful that new animals have yet to be discovered. I didn't want to bunker dismiss it. If the macabre was real I wanted to find it and the obvious place for him to start looking was these chew become bodies. They'd mostly turned up in Texas and other south western US states and Radford, you know, investigated about a dozen hairless gone creatures with burnt looking skin DNA tests that he took furthered the mystery all of the DNA tests came back with the same result, humanoid of unknown origin. Very unsettling results that usually comes back on on a corrupted sample less than twenty different sets of unidentified biological remains have ever produced the result of humanoid of unknown origin. Even more troubling, a high level of radioactivity was detected on these remains more radioactive radioactivity was on these remains than remains of creatures found near tra- noble less than two years after the infamous meltdown. Also microscopic inspection revealed an alarming amount of orbital only rearranged mono atomic elements, it appears that these creatures wherever they were were living on basically nothing, but or miss even more disturbing a lot of the corpses began to reanimate during examinations. Most troubling some of these creatures begin to dance possibly even more troubling. They did the mock arena, and they seem to enjoy it. So lot of fucking weird shit that I just made up. No, the DNA tests came back and said that the the bodies of these Shuba coppers, we're actually the bodies of coyotes or coyotes, depending on where you live dogs racoons in one case in actual fish. So why now where people recording reporting coyotes raccoons as Shuba covers what got two words mind control dam, U, M K ultra. No, I have two different words. Cer- Coptic mange, the reason he's animals. Get dented Sheba covers is because they've lost their hair do to sarcastic main explains. Radford Cirkovic is caused by itchy inducing mites. Called sarcophagus scabby that burrow into the upper layer of the skin. It's a common thing can make ordinary creatures. Look like monsters, you can give a dog a raccoon or Coyote, a very sparsely haired nearly bald coat with red or hyper pigmented pigmented black thickened skin. And then you add self inflicted wounds to the creature because they've been scratching their hairless body, and you have a tuba copra. But what about the blood drained victims of the cheap macabre? The main doesn't explain that. Well, apparently, this is also easily explained the animals the Chiba commerce have attacked are most likely the victims of ordinary predators as not uncommon for various predators to bite an animal sometimes in the neck have the prey then still get away. And then eventually this prey the prey will die from internal hemorrhaging with no other injuries apart from the puncture marks. So why don't they appear to have any blood? Well, Radford explains when an animal dies, the heart and blood pressure. Stop the blood seeps to the lowest part of the body, and it coagulates thickens, it's called liberty, and it gives the illusion that they've been drained of blood. Okay. So of all this stuff is so is so explainable why does the legend live on well, basically because people like to believe in weird shit makes life exciting. The story of tuba Kabre may also be tied to a lack of trust in the American government fell by a lot of people in Puerto Rico, the Chiba cabraha, you know, could be like just another example of American expe. Tation meddling possibly the result of top secret US scientific experiments taking place in the UK rainforest. This is actually the most common explanation for for where this comes from Radford classifies the creature as the first internet monster as well. Saint at the first sighting had been in hundred eighty five instead of ninety five a couple of people would have heard of it. But but it wouldn't have gone viral and spread across the world. So as dig into this initial citing what inspired Tolentino to come up with her story in the first place, and I love this very possibly the nineteen ninety-five movie species the movie species, which I loved we had just been released in Puerto Rico and the first Shuba car witnessed. Yeah, there's Tolentino. She watched it just before claiming to see Chiba cabraha will this film revolves around top secret US scientific experiments, and it was partly filmed in Puerto Rico, right like experiments with like making weird creatures Radford says it's all there. She sees the movie the later, she sees. Something she mistakes for a monster species. Man, it may have been panned by critics, but it was actually a box office mash hundred and thirteen million bucks off his whole versus a thirty five million dollar budget and quite possibly gave the world Shuba copra, which is way cooler to me than any awarded could win. It's like, oh your film on Oscar. All right who gives a shit this film made a fucking monster. This film scares people who haven't even seen it. So there you go. So that's what L incase giving us Shuba Kabre possibly inspired by the movie species. Now under our last part. Now, I saved the best for last. Let's head back to California. Let's head back west home of mount Shasta and home of some super strange mysteries. We'll talk about after our final sponsor time. Suck is brought to you today by a new cartoon debut in on the cartoon channel Saturday mornings this spring pootie jujubes camp time wonder stories joined beloved comic cares. Put in you. As they run a cafeteria in a summer camp in yellow canyon mountain national monument park called Shirley's lunchbox here, your favorite classic catchphrases tier to dip pity zip juju, and and here's some new phrases written. Just for the cartoon dare yourself in the Kenyan if you don't like pootie, don't go chasing, waterfalls Jews you and even better meet the newest pootie and juju character, the duo's pet mangy. Bloodsucking raccoons creature thing to p no goats, no throats, cheapie, keep draining campers, and we'll have to close the lunchbox. So watch new episodes every Saturday morning at nine AM, the Mirian standard time the show is rated in our for not real now. Back to regularly scheduled interlude. Sock about mount Shasta. Mount Shasta is a potentially active volcano sits at the southern end of the cascade mountain range that cascades actually that starts in British Columbia Canada cuts down to Washington, Oregon into northern California at fourteen thousand one hundred seventy nine feet. It's the second highest peak in the cascades, just a few hundred feet shorter than Washington's mount Ranier clocking in at fourteen thousand four hundred and eleven feet. Located roughly sixty miles north of Redding, California, mount Shasta, sits in the Shasta trinity national forest a federally designated for us that is not technically part of the national park system. But the mountain itself is because nineteen seventy six mount Shasta was declared a national natural landmark, the landmark covers seven thousand nine hundred eighteen acres and mount Shasta is one of the world's largest and most impressive strata volcanoes a conical. Volcano built up by many layers of hardened lava. Teffera pufus and ash. Mount Shasta also contains five separate glaciers, and it's very pretty in a lot of people like to hike and climb on it and yada, yada, yada. Let's get some weird shit. Mount Shasta has long been an important natural national excuse me, important natural landmark in various kind of new agey, crunchy, Christly movements. People have believed and still do believe to the mountain is an active wormhole two hundred dimension people believed to frequent UFO hot bit of activity that you oppose live inside or around the mountain. That's a great place to to feel all kinds of positive natural energy. Get your shockers reliant for Madrid circle of some sage surround yourself with crystals drink juice infused with positive intentions. Not wear. Deodorant? Lather yourself and Pachulia never shave your legs. Listen to fish, bootlegs, not work very much smoke a ton of we'd all that kind of stuff. It's great for all that. But in the nineteen thirties. One eccentric took his new. Agents a little bit farther than most and started a Colt based on a trip to mount Shasta cold that exists still today guy w Ballard a mining engineer claimed that during the nineteen thirty visit to mount Shasta when he was fifty two years old. He was contacted by a being known as Saint Germain one of the ascended masters of the great white brotherhood. Now what the fuck is the great white brotherhood. You may think it's a good question. Surprisingly, it's actually not some type of white power movement. It's even where to the net. The white brotherhood are perfected beings of great power who spread spiritual teachings through selected humans. That's what some people believe. Most people think they don't exist who first alerted humanity to their existence one Helena, Petrovna Petrova Levinsky, aka Madame Levinsky, one of the founders of the THEO Sophal society. Now, do you remember that name we met Helena way back in the lost city of atlan? Suck. And she is if you'll remember a character. Holy shit issue character metal Levinsky claimed to have met the ancient masters the white brotherhood in the mountains of Tibet during this big spiritual journey of hers that she I'm sure never took claims. We'll take it and they shared long lost secrets with her including what happened to the lost city of Atlantis. This is the lady who thinks that Atlantis sank as the result of actual battles between basically fucking wizards, magicians and dragons and ancient atomic bombs. It is way too much to get into here. If you want to hear this crazy tail realistic to the Atlanta's suck. Madam Levesque David Eick level of crazy decades after Madame last death and h ninety one guy w Ballard guessing ws for wacky doodle decides to expand upon her teachings writing under the name of Godfrey Ray, king Ballard publishes, a book in one thousand nine hundred ninety four called unveiled mysteries sharing knowledge. He gathered at mount Shasta from Saint Germain. He claims to have received regular messages termed discourses from Saint Germain and other masters after his initial encounter one of the masters who talked him was none other than Jesus Christ. Yup. Because of this members of Ballard's new I m movement would consider themselves to be Christian guy and his wife EDNA w Ballard also w for lack of noodle claim to have received more than three thousand master messages during their lifetimes, which formed the body of the movements teachings and still forms. The the the the body of work today. The name I am is also Christian in origin. It's a reference to the bible. Verse in which God replies to Moses. I am who I am exodus three fourteen the Ballard's Inc. Movement in nineteen thirty two following guy. Ballard's death in nineteen thirty five excuse me. Nineteen thirty nine EDNA Ballard would become the movement's leader, and she would reveal messages she would receive from Saint Germain and other masters until her death in nineteen seventy one the board of directors which had been established at the movement's Inc. Nineteen thirty two would then take control of the movements. They still control today since nineteen seventy-one. No further messages from masters have been received because no new messenger has been appointed to succeed the balance. So if you are looking to take over a new Colt, right or I guess, we know the cold if you want to become a new cult leader. I think you should probably study up on Saint Germain stations go under around mount Shasta for a while. Then claim to be the new conduit for Saint Germain's messages. Right. If you also have a few million dollars to pour into their cold. I would bet they would love to have you. I would bet you get to lead them. That's pretty fun. So what info did Saint Germain and other masters share with the ballots? Well, the teachings emphasized ways for individuals to become aware of their IM or God presence which flows from God. The mighty creative fired center of the universe. Ultimately, each person hopes to ascend into the divine realm as the ballots are believed to have done at the end of their lives. Here's the message in their words, all should understand that when one has made his ascension he becomes a wholly perfect being of such beauty radiance that all who contact him realize that he is superior in every way to all other beans, he is no longer subject to any of the limitations of the outer world for he has the full use of the power of precipitation can take his body anywhere, he desires instantly, transcend time and space, and is such an outpouring of light love, and peace that all who contact him know instantly that he is a God being manifesting marvellous perfection in every way where the physical body has read. Blood in the veins at the movement of ascension. It becomes a liquid golden light pouring his radiance through the flesh until the rays of golden light fill the aura. That's pretty fucked sweet become your own immortal. God that is the best religious sales pitch. You can offer your religion offers heaven. Oh, that's cute. We can build our own heaven why enjoy someone else's paradise. When you can just run it. You can customize it you can add more palm trees littlest harp. More titties, less robes, more high heels. Lest sandals be your own. God the reciting of decrease invocations of the divine that call for the manifestation of the invisible in the visible world of desire condition or the removal of an undesirable. One is the primary devotional activity of members of the movement. So basically, these people show up at these temples, and they just fucking listen to messages recorded by the ballots. The I moving also promotes American patriotism the messages received by Ballard suggests that the United States had a special role in the masters world plan and members of the movement. Believed that Ballard was a reincarnation of George Washington is all this making sense. I feel like I'm either not describing it very well or describing it perfectly and it's just insane. As a result of some legal trouble nineteen fifties. The movement lost a few members quite a few members almost out, but as of just a few years ago, there was still apparently more than three hundred chartered IM sanctuaries in the US alone. No, I'm sorry in the US world combined. The most prominent group inspired by the I am movement is the church universal triumphant. They're believed to have between thirty and fifty thousand members. My God there is still an IM temple just a few miles from our Shasta eleven if you wanna visit. I'm not making eleven thirty seven MacLeod f mount Shasta, California and stop by also mount Shasta the town such a weird place. You can also go visit the mount Shasta goddess temple skied, enter center for female mysticism. That's a mouthful you can take a woman's mysteries workshop, you could enroll in the woman shaman priestess training program. If you have the required genitalia. There's also a place in mount Shasta called the dolphin star temple mystery school, I shit. You not this is this. Town sounds the town is only about three thousand people and it has an IM temple. It has skied dancer center for female mysticism. It has the dolphin star temple mystery school and that and that's just the few. I could find quickly on the internet. At the dolphin hippy school, by the way, you can learn universal teachings of the ancient mystery schools of the Maria, Atlantis and Egypt. I wanted to be honest. The more I read about mount Shasta. The more won't have a vacation. There actually have pulled over in that town on a few different road trips. And I remember being like a funky RT little new agey talents and Kukoc shops. I had no idea. How weird it truly was if you don't want to visit a temple you can also stop by the amount Shasta crystal room, where a according to their website, you will find beautiful crystals and minerals from all over the world from the Mirian seed crystals to magical gemstone jewellery, you will find tools for healing and museum quality specimens for your home or workplace. Are you getting a good feel for how fucking crazies places because I'm going to close out this suck with the weirdest? National park mystery of them all at least to me. Let's talk about the Miriam's. I've hit that word a few times. Now Arlen Muren's alive on mount Shasta. There are many Christly types who believe that. Mount Shasta is the home right now of the Mirian's. They believe that the Mirren's are living inside the mountain right now, the Mirren's being the survivors of the sinking of the lost continent of the Maria over twelve thousand years ago, which never happened. People are alive right now. People living in California people who probably own a crystals, and you do who believed that he race of creatures called the myriads are living in a subterranean city called T Laos inside of mount Shasta now who are the Mirren's in a word fake. They're made up. They're not real the notion of the Mirian of the myriad comes from eighteen sixty four we know exactly where it comes from that year zoologist and bio geographer, Philip s- clatter published the mammals of Madagascar he proposed that Madagascar and India had once been part of a larger continent that he called the Maria. This is what he wrote the anomalies of the mammal fauna of Madagascar. Be best explained by supposing that a large continent occupied parts of the Atlantic. And Indian oceans that this continent was broken up into islands of which some have be come amalgamated with Africa some with what is now Asia, and that in Madagascar and the mass islands we have existing relics of this great continent for which I propose the name the Miriam, and he was right about Madagascar. India being part of another con, and it was a supercontinent called Panja after his publication wackadoo deals like Madam Levesque's connected, la- myriad to Atlantis and just made up a new race of people out of thin air, and these people were assigned magical powers and a whole lot of other nonsense believing in Lumiere, Ian is the intellectual equivalent of believing in lizard, people zero evidence zero legitimate academics. Or scientists believe in the shit. Here is the story though of how the marines arrived in mount Shasta taken from very respected incredible. And. Status website called la- Mirian connection dot com. Run by people who totally believe in these creatures prior to the sinking of their content fully aware of the eventual destiny of their beloved constant the ancient Mirian's using their mastery of energy crystals. Sound and vibrations hollowed out a vast underground city with the intention of preserving their culture their treasures and the records of ancient history history that has been lost since the sinking of Atlantis about twenty five thousand marines. We're able to migrate into the interior of mount Shasta the most important of their various administrations centers prior to the sinking of their motherland fucking farm out. She asked his by the way from where this concert continent would have even been like why if they were by like Madagascar, India, why the fuck would one of their administration centers be literally clear across the world in mount Shasta. Anyway, they say they are still here in physical immortal bodies, totally unlimited living ally. Of pure heaven on earth wondrous little people often referred to as the little people of mount Shasta are very often seen visually around the mountain. They are third dimensional beams like humans, but they live on a slightly higher level of the third dimension such as third and one half level, and they will have and they have the ability to make themselves visible and invisible. At will the reason they are not showing themselves physically too, many people is because they have a collective fear of humans at one time when they were as physical as we are and could not make themselves invisible at will humans living at the time viciously maligned them, they became so fearful of humans that they collectively asked the spiritual hierarchy of this planet for the dispensation to be elevated in their frequency what in the fuck people talking about. So that they could make themselves invisible at will in order to be able to continue their evolution unharmed and in peace. All right. Well, there you go. That's why you can't see me is there operating. They're operating on the third and one half level you Jack asses that's probably the level Bigfoot operates on as probably the level that flat earthers operate on. That's why they get it. There is no curve to be seen when you're operating on that level. What a great way to rationalize. Just whatever you want heya. Where's your proof of these la- Mirren's proof? You have you want proof? Good luck with that their operating on the thirty one half level mother fucker they will be seen win. And if they want to be seen, do you not know how dimensions and levels work. You fucking idiot. Gotta wish they really got that angry when you confront them on according to feels good to have a little bit of power back in my voice by him. Not gonna lie. I love it. When I can yell stuff like that. According to the la- Mirian connection website. There are also reports of the big, of course, is big Foot's in this too. There are also reports of the big foot race of people being seen on some remote areas of mount Shasta, along with many other mysterious beans, the big foot people are now very few numbers around the world around mount Shasta, they are of average intelligence and possess a peaceful heart. They have also tamed the dispensation to be able to make themselves invisible at will to be able to avoid confrontation with us and thus like the little people avoid being harmed mutilated and used as a slave race. What the fuck I'm sorry. Why Bigfoot hiding because he doesn't want to be part of the slave race jackass. It's obvious. I people see sasquatch is then they put him in twos. Then they realized there good lifting shit and digging stuff thin there and slaved and building a car home shit. Wake up. What a strange explanation for why we can't find Bigfoot. But enough about sat scores, we'll talk more about the Liberians. There's talking about their city inside mount Shasta where they live deep inside the mountain. Did they live in round houses, and they enjoy unlimited health and wealth. It says these lyrics are allegedly graceful and tall seven feet and up with long flowing if they're seven and up. Why are they called the little people? I guess that's like ironic like when you call a person tiny. They dressed in white robes and sandals. But they've also been seen in very colorful clothing. No, they haven't they are said to have long slender necks and bodies, which they adorned with beautiful decorative, collars, made of beads and precious stones they have evolved, their six cents, which enables them to communicate amongst themselves by extrasensory perception, they can turn invisible or teleport at will and speak the Muren language called solo Solaro Maru. They also speak impeccable English with a slight British accent. I swear to God that's what they wrote that's their actual description this English, but like with a slight British accent the details. Unreal it feels like this mythology was created by somebody who read nothing, but the Lord of the rings and various dungeons and dragons fantasy books while also dropping acid and eating shrooms and smoking the most potent Weeden existence on a daily basis for about a decade. And then we're asked to quit the write down everything they thought to be true about the world. A man named Dr m Dorrell who was not a real doctor formed an offshoot of the I am movement called the brotherhood of the white temple. He claimed that he visited the look the the marines inside their mound in the early nineteen forties. He said he came to a space about two miles in height about twenty miles long, fifty miles wide. He wrote that the light inside the mount was his bright as a summer day because the spended almost in the center of the mountain is a giant sun thing another mid twentieth. Century mistake reported that he fell asleep on mount Shasta. And there was a woke or awakened by the Mirian who let him inside the mountain to a cave, which is paved with gold, then the marine told a man there was a series of tunnels left by volcanoes that were under the earth like freeways a world within a world the la- supposedly have mastered, atomic energy, telepathic clairvoyant, skills electronics and science. They matched all that stuff. At least eighteen thousand years ago. They have technology that makes us service to others. Look like toddlers compared to them they control most of their technology with their minds. They have boats planes spaceships have hopefully this bishops called a silver fleet. They come in and out of the mountain at will go out in the space and do space stuff. And and we don't see him because they have the ability to make their vehicles invisible whenever they feel like and they do that. Because they don't wanna be detected by the military, which makes no sense. Like, I love that. They have all the super advanced technology lay more Vance and hours they can teleport they can turn invisible. At will. They have all these other powers, but they're worried about us. But they're worried about our military get the fuck outta here. If they had a lot of stuff, they can just do whatever they wanted to us a man named JC Brown employed by the Lord cowdray mining company of London England to prospect for precious metals around mount Shasta, he claims to have found the la- Miriam's back in ninety four. Apparently stumbled upon a tunnel which carved downward into the mountain equipment, lanterns and miners paraphernalia. He set out to explore in later wrote three miles from the mouth of the tunnel is struck across a cross section containing gold-bearing or and farther on I struck another cross Anchin. We're an ancient race apparently mind cover he walked roughly eleven miles inside the mound to where he found many rooms and chambers. The rooms are full of various plates all inscribed. Neatly the walls were lined with tempered copper and hung with shields and wall pieces made of gold some of the golden plates. He found were in grade with certain drawings and hieroglyphics rooms opened into other chambers. One of which appeared to have been a place of worship. In addition. There were thirteen statues made of copper and gold and a large sun designed from which protruded golden streamers the way the objects were strewn about he had the feeling the occupants of the underground village had left on the spur of the moment in one chamber. He counted twenty-seven skeletons. The smallest of which was six six the largest stretch. Now more than ten feet two of the bodies were mummified each clad in colorful ornate. Robes Brown spent many days exploring studying the hieroglyphics, and in dot and printing them in his mind. But I bet there was a tunnel. The connected the city to the the Grand Canyon city. And I'm guessing must have brought some food and water must've found some bathrooms, you know, to to explore this for so long. He was so excited about this. Great archeological find he decided to leave the tunnel and his contents. Exactly as he found him a comeback later, but he concealed the entrance to the tunnel. So well, he forgot where it was dead. Nabet Dag nab it. I forgot where the magic tunnel was to the place that doesn't exist and after thirty years he decided that the glory of these marines and the golden artifacts still hanging. Untouched in this cavern must be shared with others in one thousand nine hundred four seventy nine years old he appears in Stockton, California. He organizes a group of people to accompany him to explore mount Shasta legend has it. He got eighty people, including a newspaper editor a museum curator a retired printer. Several scientists other citizens to former group to investigate the tunnel. And apparently they met. Nightly for six weeks to plan, the expedition and also listened to his constant tales of lost continents. Hieroglyphics treasure, blah, blah, blah, and in the morning they were supposed to leave. He's a fucking no-show and they never saw him. Again. Gotta hope that story is true that some looney. Tune making tons of crazy claims gathered people and lured them on for six weeks and the day they're supposed to leave. You just bounces. I was surprised you don't hear about more doomsday cult leaders to in that like tell everybody the day is going to be like April. First two thousand thirty get everyone in the compound have sex with all the hot women for couple years. Make other people do all the work convince everyone that you know, you're God's favorite profits take all their money. And then I'm like March thirty first you just bounce leave a little note behind the says, April Fools, motherfuckers made it all up. There's no spaceship nonsense. Best luck some cult member. Damn it may make I'm good. He he's so good trick me into giving me my giving him my wife for a couple of years trick me into castrated myself and giving him money. The April Fools king. Come it's. Okay. So that's it that is it for today's mysteries. Weird tales. Right. Who knew there was so much going on our national parks, and I know many of you wrote in suggesting like other mysteries this mystery or that their way too many for one suck that is why the travel channel did an eight part series on on the subject back in two thousand fifteen a series. I haven't watched by the way. So I don't know how much overlap there is I'm sure they left out a lot of stories as well. I hope you enjoyed the ones I chose to vote. I'm just amazed by what people choose to believe. And there was a lot of like legitimately interesting just mysteries. So let's go over some quick highlights. Learn a wee bit more with today's top five takeaways. Takeaway. Number one on March. I eighteen seventy two then president Ulysses s grant signed the Yellowstone National Park Protection Act establishing Yellowstone park as America's first federally protected land number to the United States national park system encompasses a total of four hundred eighteen different. Scientists span across eighty four million acres the US national park system in total is over ten million acres bigger than all of Italy. Number three. There is not a lost city hidden in the Grand Canyon. David doesn't know what he's talking about. The whole story was a hoax likely told to sell more newspapers in one thousand nine number four. It is very likely that the legend of the crypto zoological creature. Shuba copra can't be traced directly back to one woman watching the movie species in Puerto Rico in nineteen ninety-five. I love that so much. I wish that the legend of Bigfoot could be traced back to somebody watching Harry and Henderson's. Five new info. I'm always intrigued by tales that people who vanished without a trace with no evidence left behind it. So spooky nobody giant search party forms. They find absolutely nothing. Always makes me wonder about you, and like wormholes other dimensions. We could possibly slip into. They haven't been proven to exist. Yet, we covered several disappearances like that today. They happen in all kinds of parks like the great smoky mountains national park this park sits along the Tennessee North Carolina border covers over one hundred eighty seven thousand acres of land. And that's what he's been home to so many disappearances over the years like the case of Dennis Martin in one thousand nine hundred sixty nine at that time Dennis a six year old boy and his family on a hiking trip in the smoky mountains Dennis and his three brothers designed to jump out at their parents when they walk past the three brothers. You know, the the race up ahead or the four brothers, actually. Sorry. The race up ahead three go one way. Dennis goes in another direction because he has a bright red top, which is gonna make you more likely to be saying he wants to hide a little better. When the time comes for everybody to jump dentists. Three brothers jump out. Dennis does not they assume that he just missed his cue. They called his name. They're waiting for him to come out. Nothing. His family looks for Dennis for hours to can't find a trace of him. They be such a nightmare. They call for search and rescue unit and a search party is formed. They look for Dennis for weeks fourteen hundred searchers comb, a fifty six square mile area. They find a few people who reported seeing a small boy wanted to woods others reported a very small items of clothing, but Dennis himself. No real trace of him as ever found many think he was kidnapped or dragged off by some animal, but it's all speculation. He vanished without a trace to this day. No one knows exactly what happened to Dennis. And he just one of many people to disappear forever. Inside of our national parks. Just more national park mysteries. Takeaway. All right. So that is that is it national park. Mysteries has been sucked. Hail nimrod. May he protect the rest of us from invisible in various forces. Maybe la- Mirren's are taken people. I don't know. Thank you the time. So team thank you to Queen of the suck. Lindsey Cummins high priestesses Cellcom Revilla camp. Jesse guardian of grammar donor, Reverend Dr Joe mother, fuck and paisley time suck high priest Alex Dugan. The guys have been elixir danger brain and access apparel next week. We're going back to a Colt haven't done that in a bit touched on a coal today. Digging deep run a Colt next week the order of the Solar Temple on October fourth and fifth nine seventy four fifty three members of the Solar Temple in Canada. And Switzerland were murdered or committed suicide the buildings in which they died were set on fire a year later, another sixteen members killed themselves and five more died in similar ways in March of nineteen Ninety-seven. This cult was based in Switzerland, and they saw themselves as following the teachings of the knights Templar longtime, suckers know, all about the knights Templar the followers of cult leader Joseph dimambro, we're brainwashed to believe that he was a member of the fourteenth century Christian order of the knights. In a previous life, and that his daughter Emmanuel was the cosmic child, and they would be led to planet which orbits the star. Sirius after this are you in. I hope you're in because it sounds fucking insane. I love a suck. There is no limit to what some people can be convinced to believe we learned that today again time now to hear from you to hear from very own Colt. Members the cult curious with today's time sucker updates. Times updates. I up date is a fun story in a shoutout requests coming in from Adrian riddle. Sorry, I can't get to all the shadow request. By the way, we get quite a few. And we're very grateful that we do sometimes the one that gets running the show. It's just the one that happens to come in. When I'm putting the updates together and curate knit. It's never personal. If you do not get in Adrian writes, dear master sucker. First of all. Thank you for. All you do with time suck podcast and your stand up comedy your legend, sir. I'm writing today to tell you a little bit about my incredible husband, Keith he introduced me to time suck a couple of months ago, when I was hooked instantly Keith, and I are both recovering addicts who met at the lowest point in both of our lives. We were at rehab both freshly out of toxic relationships. Both have no idea how we were going to move forward their lives. Everyone told us our relationship would never work. We were just the same old run of the mill rehab romance. And it was probably best that we go our separate ways as soon as we get out or got out. But we didn't we stayed together. We went to meetings together and figured out how to have a healthy life together. Fast forward six years, and we now have to be. Beautiful daughters together, and he is all but officially adopted my older daughter as his own all that. I love your nets beautiful. Our careers are thriving, and we are closing on our first house in a few short weeks keys work so hard to be the best ad. He can't to our little little girls. He loves them in me with everything he has he gets up and goes to work at five AM. So he can be often time to get them all from school and daycare. He's at every dance recital choir concert event cheer every event cheering them on with stars in his eyes. I love him. He's a beautiful meat sack. And I couldn't ask for a better partner to go through life with his birthday was last week. And I surprised him with tickets to your stand up show in Dallas where from Tulsa, Oklahoma. And we can't wait to come. See you live. Thanks again for all you do. We are constantly making time so jokes at each other with his big deal, and your podcast is brought us even closer than we already were. If you could could you please give him a shout-out from me. I would be so happy looking forward to seeing you in Dallas hail Nimrod agent will. We'll hail Nimrod agent, man. See when sweet case, okay. I'll give you shutout sweet Kaethe, your sweet low Mexi meets Accu. Yeah. I'm looking forward to senior in Dallas. Love your story. Love the defied. The odds a love and underdog store, you know, I love it underdogs tour. Good on YouTube for being kick ass meet sack. Parents world needs more that world can never get enough of that good on you. Both got a lot of messages regarding the pedophile island suck. You know? We still getting still getting a lot of those. I mean, it just speaks to how how big the problem of sexual abuse really is and it's not just mannequins child. Sometimes, you know, women are the perpetrators that. Sometimes he's lost in the talk about pedophilia. And so in regards to that I'm reading this message made sent in by an anonymous sucker who writes, dearest master sucker. I have never ever fucking once told anyone about this. If you do happen to read this, please keep me anonymous done, I am an adult male. And when I was six I was molested by two of my female babysitters. I had no clue how to react. I still don't really know how to feel. It was so hard to keep. It from my family who still don't know until my mom that I didn't want them to babysit me anymore. I made up lies. My mother could tell that I was a little uncomfortable and never hired them. Again. I couldn't tell friends ever you try to tell any young boy that you had to naked seventeen year old girls on top of you, and touch and you like you've never been touched before. It sounds like every boy's dream. But not at six not when I just wanted to fuck plane intendo, I haven't seen either of them in well over a decade, and that's cool. There are still times where my best living thing in the world wife says something that they said during the act and it still gets to me almost an immediate soft. Shame. Cock. I tell her I have ups, but I cannot bring it to myself to tell her it hurts to think about but listening to everybody right to you about their instances is finally giving me the courage to tell someone or thousands. Ha ha a love you guys. And all that you do you make us laugh you teach us and so much more hoping. No that fuck that. I know you do I know the telling his story these days doesn't do much about them doing it in the first place. But it does bring. Little bit of relief to me to type these words for the first time HALE Nimrod praised bojangles and triple m and praise loose, Nusa FINA. She would have a field day with those two pieces of shit. Sorry. If I rambled what you didn't ramble nothing. New apologize about Lucifer would have a field day with those two pieces shit because she loves sexuality healthy sexuality hate those who file which would always be such a beautiful and pleasurable act. And I hope you are able to tell your wife someday. I really do. I bet she would understand. I bet telling her would be weight off your chest. You're not a missed. But you know, you know, that I've met you. And and I don't think someone is amazing as you would marry someone who is also amazing. So thanks for sharing that I hope you feel a little better never ever feel at fault you or anybody else listening when you're the victim of sexual abuse. Not ever. It's the shame should never be felt by anyone other than the abuser. You are kid. You did fuck an absolutely nothing wrong. Okay. Apparently, I got time sucker Kyle clear. Thank you for through pronunciation guide. You. I would have fucking called you Pru hair. With the case, Casey, Anthony lie. So glad my voice is backed by the way, when everything that Casey Anthony thing kind of rights or sorry added Cuyler because my son Kyle rights longtime Cuyler first time listener, you Astle. I pride myself on outsmarting your made up ranson the show. I even wrote an earlier claiming how I figured out you're making a sponsor, even before you get to the sponsor, but you son of a bitch. You got me when you said Casey mother of the year. Anthony was running a daycare ice cream. I screamed out loud to nobody. Are you fucking kidding me? And I got so mad that almost through my phone at the window. Followed immediately by me, also yelling at no one in particular. You son of a bitch. When you corrected yourself. You're done cap wearing spaces or Kyle earlier, a love Akal and no done can't few. No one is more gullible than I am. I would I would fall for every single one of my life. If I wasn't the one telling him, I I'm ridiculously gullible Hillman. Rod do and now a funny message sent in from time sucker Kelly Daniels. Kelly says I fucking love you until I stumbled upon your podcast, which I listen to religiously. I wanted to jab myself in the eye with a pen on the other hand, you're unhealthy admiration with Michael motherfucker McDonald is concerning. Why why are you so obsessed with him? Becky, it's weird. It is weird. Which is why obsessive him a forgetting he has a best force in to re. Okay. Forgetting that he sings it has marbles in his mouth, and she says in fuck the haters who get mad when you mispronounced words names. I love it because it makes me feel superior to your dumb ass gave on sucking Kelly. Kelly. I'm glad you feel superior. I really am. It's good to be humble and accept your shortcomings instead of you know, being embarrassed. Yeah. I don't speak very well. Which is super ironic considering what I do. And I feel like I I hope it's inspirational honestly, I feel like if I can make a living as a comic in podcast when I barely speak one language, then all of you meet sacks should be able to kick ass doing whatever you do do whenever you're passionate about love you guys. And last last update, I believe I'm making sure it is the last one. Yes. Last update regarding Casey Anthony coming in from sucker Michaela Perkins. Mckenna writes, dear Reverend Dr masters, suck master hail Nimrod. I love your podcast, first and foremost loved so much. I got my husband into it. Now, we suck on these wonderful delicious times that kept us together. I have some quick updates. I'll let you share with you. I just listened to your Casey Anthony suck and thought you would find this interesting. Apparently, she is advocating for those who are wrongfully convicted at her first case Scott Peterson. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I read about that. If that's now fucked up, I don't know it is. Another sucked another sucker update. I half us about the Unabomber. I'm curly. Listen to a podcast called monster and season two is all about zodiac killer. I heard on a podcast that there is a group of amateur sleuths who've dedicated their lives into finding out who the real zodiac killer is on this podcast. They interviewed several of these people in many of them think that the Unabomber was indeed the zodiac killer. Good old. Ted Kaczynski the finest. I thought you would find his interesting and wanted to hear your thoughts. Wilma kill. I did look into the Unabomber zodiac killer connection. And while it's interesting. It's highly unlikely Kozinski did live in the bay area from nineteen sixty seven to nine hundred sixty nine or you know, he lived for a little while in that period in the same period that Zodiac's confirmed killers killings occurred because Inskeep did oncein a high school yearbook with a symbol similar to the zodiacs. However witness descriptions of Ponti zodiac like a little thicker zodiac do not match the very lanky at the time because Inskeep also bloody print from one of Zodiac's from one of the zodiac slain scenes that was recovered does not match Ted Kaczynski's prince and wants Ted became the Unabomber. None of his writings matched these writings in any way. Very very highly unlikely for a sudden personality in handwriting shift. And obviously his MO of bombing was different than the zodiac. As for the Casey Anthony Scott Peterson connection. She also talked about how she feels similar to OJ Simpson. I don't know if you saw that she feels you know, she's she's one of these wrongly accused Scott Peterson OJ Simpson, blah, blah, blah. Of course, she's attracted to these cases. She's a manipulator who who wants to sell people around her on stories that make her look better and being falsely accused is the story that makes her look the best right now, she loves to play the victim truly disgust me. And then Michaela finishes with again love the podcast. My husband, and I are hoping and waiting for you to come to Boise to get a chance to meet you. We are fellow Idahoans like you and love this wonderful beautiful state. Take care of that voice. Ped- bojangles on the head. Give the Queen of the sucks and pretty flowers is nice and him run your spaces are Michaela Perkins. Thank you. I would love to get to Boise. I'm out I'm gonna try hopefully this next year. I do think it's crazy. I don't I don't play the biggest city in my own state. But for whatever reason is just never worked out. Never Mabel to find the right? Kind of. You there hope that that changes in two thousand twenty keep spreading the suck. And it will I go generally where the analytic say I have the most fans, and I would love to see those tick up in Boise and and get down to a show. This is where my sister lives, it'd be great. And thank you for the updates everybody. Thanks time. Suck this nine. We all did. Thanks again. Everyone for listening and supporting time suck love you. Meet sacks. Please don't disappear in a national park or anywhere else. This week. I don't wanna lose listeners and also keep away from the Mirren's. I don't trust anybody who can teleport intern, visible and most importantly, keep on smoking. Ready to move to. Really quick. Oh, yeah. Okay. Tell the now. Yeah. Think about it.