2 Episode results for "Nora Lisa"
Elizabeth Navarette entrevista a Max El Cerrador Jimenez
"Eleven studies Bienvenidos. I stopped Premera ABC John, then western restart Sam for Saint on. Hispaniola cer- carriers unison bayonet races. Which you seem as grasses and Worcester Patrocinio, Dr Steve trank gone, the real estate, disruptors no Seville opportunity bills are Swiss through your VA, almost more content of this therapy is to be needles at Dole's racist person. Tony Serono's in Esther, almost, I donate recess summum the important in. We specifically pocket, Barron, bizarre is lap. Premera finished on your how my savvy. Eat them in the name. Also wanna persona. So my main exit dosa get the band thing for my soon. We valley that important any Psomas, Chad e why don't they gain was through sister or delivery, Dan tests show, the end up way that way that top dollar. Civil orchids console Tracy see men also A-List present or max. L. Serrato humana. Women either on the number me me socio. Yes. Haven't Steve string either stay for came up a push a sample number. A seraglio bursts Capers. Canova Sita's, were that can combine the Laura's northeastern toll is rattled Ratto, Las personas pocketed, the Paula, which is personas and foregone amass and lynetta Kizer on the said. No. So throws Nelson focusing on us with Lucy on the and the and the it was on. They'll when the Gaza so, so you could okay E relevant. See someone starts by this. So he'll cut another hour. And so throws Louis most canot see throw up on southern forces. He must Kosice on suspect, though. So he's not rattling persona. Not readily compensate analogy in the gang on, okay? Again, see, no Semo central Kamala. Visit. Even Linke continue almost Titian, detente plant. Okay is about your kid Beccaria that on a super interloop, Sean. You're banning this medicine. Taper? You what? Max is, is less three yet you win unanimous. Toy ki as no less, but it won't pass either mask, but I'm implicit opportunity, grasses, max assistive for for a Tonia casino. Salam enormously. Soured. 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And they're also whether I was going into I tend to distract the heater is that the he is. Sosa Farah, the leader, Abraham Aristo, but the around Los otros, Los otros, others, compensate, snakes, you're on the less. Claire massey. Towers gase paulhamus sweatsuits, look at point in than it was, you will scandal, not all personas that one in a Suka on this screen though. Not personas DNS in their Lama urea pointless started. Guna hinder, the races Belsey windows swear sold on their on the stubbornly. The analyst pertain unless grandma's Los L cafe. So they eat. You got a question him numbers. When I get Canosa get going assume Primo to your casino, Saito's young kids. You now do is east. I won't look gold mine, but I'll now not. Not. ES Wetzel, that was God, isn't it? This isn't elementary the other. No, then notice on immodestly admit, that's goose got support on KOMO Yola will scare that can contract iced, our them, and no salvia. 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Repeat: Indigenous Futurisms
"In nineteen ninety five. A college student disappeared on a trip across the usa. Reporting him missing right away. they wouldn't take it so. His mother started investigating the case file. I've started going through in saw. It wasn't interviewed. I joined this mother search for justice or you recording us. I am yeah someone knows something season six available now. This is a cbc podcast. Hi i'm nora young. This is spark and this week and episode. That first aired at the very beginning of this year story is an important part of how we learn and share knowledge about the world around us in particular stories about the future. Science fiction can offer insight into not only where we're going but who we are the thing is traditionally are most iconic images of the future. I'm sorry i'm afraid. I can't destroyed him. Quick destroy seed are for the most part whitewashed and male centric in more recent years. Though we've seen more examples of fictional future worlds that are more reflective of the real world around us today. Did he freeze interloping lights finished. But how indigenous peoples fit into futuristic narratives not just in science fiction but also in the tech world. That's what we're going to look at today. And to be clear as our guests will point out. We're talking about a huge range of cultures and perspectives initial bay. One of the meanings of that is that we are the people of good intentions. This is great deals on a professor at the indigenous nations studies department at portland state university and the editor of walking the clouds and anthology of indigenous science. I am initial ave and have relatives friends and family. At basically bales nation but some garden river and some of the nation greece coined the term indigenous. Future 'isms it dishes futures lum's is made by an indigenous person or communities. It's four indigenous peoples around the world globally but is also for people while it's still a fresh term. The idea of indigenous future 'isms is nothing new the idea of future 'isms implies that it is set in the future but we know scientifically through physics that we can have alternate universes we can have multi universes and so that's another feature that Really stands out. I think in indigenous futures is that you're playing around all these kinds of possibilities of space time itself. Indigenous futures limbs is like afra- futures on lat next futures skull feature 'isms asian features queer future 'isms disability future 'isms where the importance of it is that it is the community from within that is writing stories and one important distinction since it started in the science fiction field but soon grew way beyond that. Is that There's also a interesting rather than just looking at the body and the mind as the kind of binary earsplitting kadhamy which happened in cyberpunk in the nineteen eighties or so And became very popular Instead what is wonderful about these futures soms is that you can embrace spirit mind and body and integrate that and that is all part of your science urine dishes sciences. All part of the what gerald visitors initiative abi like myself calls it natural reason. And you're always telling stories at in exploring that natural reza and so if i haven't read any indigenous future ism works. Are there things. That would jump out at me as being different from other science fiction that i might have read yes and no because any time that you start telling stories. There's going to be what john reader. A professor at the university of hawaii and has worked very closely within ditches futures himself calls you start having a family of resemblances okay and so what family resemblances really could have overlaps with other forms of science fiction for instance rate now a climate justice and we call it. Climate justice and indigenous features is a really really important movement. And of course you will find a lot of science fiction and what has often also been called mainstreamed khleifi and so you will mind many overlaps there but it's integration of indigenous sciences along with sciences. And the making that's going on. Currently i mean we have our own young people at tribal colleges that are going into robotics engineering or biomedical fields. And so most certainly that would be an overlap of sciences and sciences. On the make and so why did you decide to create an anthology that showcases indigenous future. 'isms Well because i'm a professor. It's typically expected that you write a monograph of scholarship about you know these books that you've been looking at in reading and i really hesitated about that because i realized that a lot of people don't even know what indigenous futures is or. What the many many many varieties are. And so what. I did is contacted each person for the walking the clouds and policy and just ask them is what you are writing. Is this a form of science fiction to you. And if so why. And they came back with so many wonderful wonderful reasons and so what role does fiction in particular play in thinking about real world futures from indigenous perspective as opposed to say you know writing a policy statement or a position paper or something like that. Yeah it's an interesting sort of thing because we we've always told stories This job Has pointed out with the teeth of the crane which is an expression of ours Sense cranes have no teeth. Slow as you're as you're sharing your stories to share in your humor and all of these other kinds of features that make it in a way more memorable than if you were perhaps given for a lot of people at least Simply taxonomic chart so a an excellent feature stories is that you remember those people and the other thing that along that line in terms of fiction. Every time i talked to a dishes person. That's trying to figure out digits future since like. Well what is there really. It's taking the fiction out of science fiction because that's what a or stories are you're actually bringing in true stories and you're just doing them in story for but they are true they're not fictitious of that kind of sense And so when you look at the science fiction in your anthropology can talk a bit about the role that science and technology play envisioning futures. Well in the anthology. I got into aspects of the native apocalypse because as has been often said we've already experienced the apocalypse and so we have a method of surviving which gerald minister praised and that is the whether you're experiencing victim domination or tragedy survive. Ince's away of over going that and you do that through ceremony. You do that through stories. You do that through ceremonial stories. Dance anything that would qualify as art and you. Integrate that with your knowledge of science says. I was like to say because just no one kind of science. Greece dylan is a professor of indigenous nations studies at portland state university and editor of walking the clouds and anthology of indigenous science fiction. We'll have more of my conversation with grace later in the show but right now we're gonna take a break from speculative futures into the real world of digital technology on spark. We've talked a lot about the problem of us in the design. Today's digital tech partly. That's because of a lack of diversity in the tech world so the startups get. Vc funding are the ones that solve the problems of silicon valley knowledge workers but as we've explored it's also specifically a problem in the kind of a known as machine learning us because machine learning works by being trained on large data sets data sets that may be unrepresentative of the population. So you end up. For example with facial. recognition technology doesn't recognize black people's faces well or the data sets can contain historical bias due to for example past racist decision making that's serious because machine learning is increasingly used in powerful ways from facial and speech recognition to making recommendations about sentencing and parole. These issues are of great. Concern to jason lewis. I teach at concordia university in the department of design and computation arts. And i'm also the university. Research chair in computational media the dishes future imaginary for jason reliance on these kinds of data sets isn't just an accident. It's something that technologists ought to be aware of and take responsibility for if the data that you are pulling from this system if it's not actually corrected for bias then you are guilty of building bias into your system. It's not an accident. It's not something you could be like. Oh we didn't know you knew and part of the problem is we allow both the researchers and the companies to get away with this. Excuse of well you know. It's the data that was biased. As if they're not responsible for making sure the data's good jason's work looks at bringing indigenous perspectives into technology design particularly over the last fifteen years. I've been focused on. How indigenous people indigenous communities can and are using computational technology network technology digital technology to tell stories to talk about what's going on in our communities and to communicate with each other and communicate to the wider world. We heard from grace dillon. Who was talking about indigenous future 'isms from a science fiction perspective but the concept is something that can be applied to other areas. So how do you think about indigenous future. 'isms in the tech world i think about indigenous features them as a way of imagining how indigenous people who can take control of the technological infrastructure on which our daily lives now depend so part of what i'm interested in is thinking about how technology like artificial intelligence can be shaped and deployed in a way that better reflects the the priorities and the ways of being in the world that various indigenous communities want at the moment and do just communities are as far as i have been able to see in my research and conversations are not taken into account at all By the people who build these systems. And that's a real problem and we've already seen some of the challenges that come about with artificial intelligence or subsets of our visual where we're seeing all sorts of kind of algorithms and data bias that have been built into these systems and that systematically at very large scales discriminate against people by people people of color in general Women basic anybody. Who's not a white guy. So when you look at the mainstream development of new technologies. Let's just use silicon valley's kinda shorthand. How would you describe the system that supports the development of our technologies. I would describe it as incredibly brittle and narrow minded the logic. That underpins computational architecture of all sorts is a very particular way of thinking about the world and yes it's definitely also tied to physics so it's not all about perception but it the way that the data has to be conformed in order to be usable. By these computational systems tends to strip out a lot of the sort of information that we actually use as human beings as we go about our daily lives we don't tend to see the world in black and white terms we don't see the world in binary terms we all live an analog world and for many things the difference between sort of that digital representation which breaks things up into ones and zeros and annalong representations doesn't necessarily really matter but there is information that is lost in that right and now that we have these systems that are operating on really large scales and are being tasked with the sorts of decisions that we used to reserve for humans. What gets lost can be important. So what i would say in silicon valley. There's a mindset particularly now around ai and machine learning. And i do things important again. Go back to silicon valley's geographical location. It's a mindset because much. Y'all where i live is one of the world's centers of machine learning research. Actually and i would say that the people here are sort of poor engineers in the same way that i'm talking about right now right super smart people really great at some things but you know they built these systems by hoovering up huge amounts of data essentially from the net right and there's a really essential mistake that's being made there. Which is that. What is on the net is not reality right. We know we've known since the beginning that the net skews english male european european descent. We know this for fact and we've known it for a long time and there's no excuse. There's no excuse by anybody for the last ten years to be like. Oh well we went and got the data from the net and we don't understand why it's biased but that's sort of what the pretense has been. Yeah so how would you like us then to think about approaching technology design. I'd like us to approach technology design in a couple of different ways. So one of those ways is not assumed that one-size-fits-all you're actually building systems for different populations and those different populations are going to have different needs for those systems right. They're going to have different things that they want to emphasize in those systems in order for their way of life whatever that might be in order for them to make their way of life better right or to support their way of life. it's relatively straightforward to include those sorts of considerations but those tend not to be the kind of considerations they get architect it into these systems. That's the number one thing. The number two thing is. I believe that we should insist that these engineers actually be good engineers. So part of what. I studied at my university. My undergraduate was computer science and one of the things that was drummed into our heads is garbage in garbage out. And if the data that you put into your system and run to your algorithm is faulty. Then you're gonna get faulty results. And so what. I don't understand is why these researchers both industry and academia who pride themselves on being great engineers why they allow garbage into their system and we should be concerned and we should legislate to ensure that it doesn't continue to happen nor youngest spark and today we're talking about indigenous future 'isms how people are using technology to include and learn from indigenous perspectives. Right now speaking with jason lewis. University research chair in computational media indigenous future imaginary at concordia university part of the work that i do with the research network. I code direct aboriginal territories in cyberspace is rerun. A series of workshops called the skins workshops and heart of what we're doing in those workshops is we're teaching mainly indigenous youth how to use digital technology to tell their stories so we do video game workshops for instance and we spend a bunch of time with them where we talk about their community they tell stories from their community and just sort of immerse ourselves as much as we can in the short period time into their culture and then we teach them how to use the tools at the same time that we work with them to fashion. A story light video game. That's reflective of their culture. And what they wanna say about their culture and then we help them make that video game and so for me. that's the model. What we wanna do in general. So we've done video games. We've done it with some other media and then last year. We held a couple of workshops called indigenous protocol and artificial intelligence which was the beginning of a discussion of okay. How can we do this with. Artificial intelligence technology and the first challenge is to find people to find dishes people who have the education in these skills and building the systems so that we can actually start trying to prototype systems that are designed differently and so what would it take to build capacity and indigenous communities to to actually do that to make universities more friendly for indigenous students so that they are willing to come into our environments and do the work that's necessary to get a computer science degree in electrical engineering software engineering degree. And that's a two hour two day two year conversation about how we do that but that's got to be number one. We have to support them as they do it so that they can imagine themselves as the builders of these systems and there is a small number of professionals in the industry right now michael running wolf has led an effort within the general community to start up. A group called indigenous in ai. So michael was part of digits protocol. Ai workshops and one of the things that was amazing with those workshops that happened in two thousand nineteen is. We got thirty five people together. Three of them indigenous and a small one of the groups got together and they actually prototype the hawaiian language app. So it's one of those apps where you point your phone at a you know something in the world and ask it to give you the wyan word for it so they did a really quick and dirty prototype of an app. That does that and part of what they did there is. They used a bunch of off the shelf. Software right is not saying that. We can't use existing technology but one of the key differences that they took is that they really spent a lot of time thinking about how to source those translations so instead of doing what the machine translation. Software does now. So say google translate which is essentially just scrapes the web for a bunch of english and scrapes the web for you know a bunch of french and then uses those two huge corpses of data to translate between the two. Which again allows you to do it at scale right. They were like okay. Well actually. There's a bunch of really bad hawaiian translations online first of all. There's not many okay so you can't get the scale you need in order to make those systems work. Secondly there's a lot of bad ones and so we're not willing to let our communities language. You know be represented by what you just happen to find on the web. So how do you create a mechanism. So that so that you can provide a way for the community to feedback right into those translations and make those translations better over time. So it's that attention to what the community thinks is important. Which is the community. It's important to get the hawaiian right. Because it's a language that has been under threat for decades now hawaiian so forbidden to speak hawaiian in their schools. Just like in canada. So the number of first language speakers dwindled to a very small number. It's been coming back over the last about twenty years but you know this is a precious relatives is how i think about it. That deserves about amount of care and to which is a hawaiian person. Have a responsibility to that. I'm still trying to figure out. But i have a responsibility to you. Know it's not just a tool. Do you think if there were more indigenous designers and technologists at the table you know granting the enormous cultural diversity that already represents d think that the actual approach to design would be different. That's a great question. And i think it's a question meaning that it's possible that we could actually have all indigenous teams or saying all hawaiian team or an. I'll marry team or all mohawk team and ended the day that the ai system they designed. Don't look that much different from what we already have. But i i believe that. There's a possibility that could. That's why i think it's a research question. It's one of those things that we i don't think will really know until we really try hard to do it. And i think that there are two separate issues that overlap. There's the representational issue meaning. Who's at the table. Another example i like to use. His microsoft released a chat bot a kind of a baby chat. Bot this is wild. Yeah like oh we're going to let it go and it's gonna learn like how to talk to people by listening to people and chat and i don't know if he's actually done a research of that study that project but i can't help but think that there wasn't a woman with power or a brown person with power in that project who you know that. If they've been there they would have raised their question. Been like this is a bad idea. Do you understand what happens when i go on chat spaces and people learned that. I'm a woman. Do you understand how they talk to me. Do you understand what happens. It such as faces if i let them know that i'm black or i'm brown and the stuff that they say to me. Oh no you don't because you're white dude right and they don't say that kind of stuff to you there's a whole other layer that you're not exposed to so that's a representational a soup but i also think in the work that we do right now is also think that there's an epistemological issue. So do you prioritize relacionadas right. So does the way that you think about the world start with relations as opposed to you know the cartesian i ego the silicon valley culture is in some ways kind of not pure by sort of very strong of that cartesian worldview whereas again the indigenous fluffy's that i'm familiar with. They don't start with the. I they start with. This is the way. I think about it right as as one node and a very complex web of relations and that you're always acting in concert with the other nodes whether you're aware of it or not for me. I'm excited about okay. How do we build artificial intelligence systems where that is what they start with. Right they start with okay are primitive. Here is actually our relationships now. How do you represent that. That's part of the fun. Research is how you think about actually representing that right. But it's a really profound shifts. That you know i think in general in so many ways we have to get away from this this ego centering this individual ego so that we can solve the many challenges that we have living together including what we're doing with the environment jason. Thanks so much for your insights on this. Thank you very much for giving me the time to speak with you today. Jason lewis is university. Research chair in computational media and indigenous future imaginary at concordia university this interview first aired in january of this year. Hello it's me tie this season. I'm on a mission to get the facts about stuff like what's at the bottom of the ocean. How will the universe and can we predict the future. I might not solve everything i mean. I'm only in grade nine. But i'm going to do my best so look out for season three of tasks wide available now on. Cbc listened or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening spark from your friends at. Cbc radio jason lewis raised the issue of why some culture knowledge is considered valid and others. Not we can ask that question of other systems to for centuries our biomedical system. The system most of our public health services are built on has excluded knowledge from communities. So my name is lisa. Richardson and i'm mixed blood in shalva. Quay my family's originally from a community called Shannon and i practice general internal medicine at the university health network in toronto and also strategically indigenous health for the faculty of medicine and have numerous other roles. One of the themes emerging in this episode is integration. The idea that alternative future 'isms aren't always about completely different ways of doing things they can also be about combining aspects of different worlds or of thinking that integration is something physicians like lisa or calling for in our healthcare system. I'm going to speak first of all just from my perspective as a mix blooded national bikeway so speaking in locating myself that way in the way i understand and i've been taught about understandings well-being it is a much more and broader. So i practice internal medicine. So i'm trained with my md. And i practice very much thinking about physical health. But when i bring that indigenous perspective on wellbeing to thinking about health i think about the multiple dimension so it's not just the physical it's emotional. It's the mental wellbeing and it spiritual wellbeing so we call at the four directions of health. And how those are all connected. Health is about and wellbeing about being connected as an individual with your community and with the land that you're from with that ancestral territory and about the relationships between all of those aspects not only of your wellbeing but of community in the and your ancestors and then also thinking about the generations to come So what kind of shift are you noting right now. When it comes to the inclusion of indigenous communities in the healthcare system to be honest it's been a hard year. It's been a year where racism in the healthcare system has become known to others. It's been well known by those who experience it for a long time but when we have the stories of people of what happened to joyce wan who died and recorded those last moments of racism that she experienced from the nurses. It's been an extremely devastating year. So think hartley in response to that but partly because we're recognizing all of this work that's been done by many generations and many reports that there is a need to actually really the way we think about healthcare for indigenous peoples. It's this coming together of these different aspects of what's needed for transformation. And so i think because of that. I'm seeing a need and an understanding to partner meaningfully with indigenous communities to actually directed change and determine what healthcare is and should be for indigenous peoples. What do we know about the approach to healthcare that indigenous people are seeking granted your point about the diversity of experience what we know i mean and we know this from large surveys of indigenous peoples across canada or the land now known as canada is that indigenous peoples more than fifty percent from some of those surveys report that they actually will see not just bio medical practitioner so physician or nurse practitioner but also seek care from a traditional healer knowledge keeper elder but we have built a healthcare system in biomedicine or western medicine. Which has actually excluded that way of healing. And so what i think. We're hearing and seeing and recognizing is critical is to create spaces or create an understanding. It night may not actually be a physical space but a psychological space and safety for indigenous peoples to be able to seek both those forms of care and for them to be respected mutually and for them to work alongside one another. So what are some of the challenges in making space for traditional knowledge and approaches in the medical system. I see the issues across the board that come from studies and come from anecdotes and come from the working experiences. That many of us have is known as epa stomach racism so what forms of knowledge are valued what is considered legitimate knowledge. What is considered acceptable and valid. And what forms of knowledge are actually considered lesser than or not important or not significant. And when you look at medicine in particular or healthcare there's been such a narrow understanding of what counts as meaningful knowledge that's acceptable within our within. How other broader healthcare professions that. It has led to racism epidemic. Racism means racism around specific forms of knowledge. Some being considered better than others. So that's what i see. And an example is that stories in most indigenous communities. Nations are not just something that one reads to your child when you're putting them to bed or that you are gathered around socializing and sharing stories about what you did for your summer. Stories actually become really important forms of knowledge what we would say. In scientific way knowledge translation of sharing wisdom of sharing experiences that have been passed down for hundreds and thousands of years that is just as valid and legitimate and important and in many ways more important when these are stories and teachings that are coming from our elders in knowledge keepers then a list of numbers from graph data but often in these biomedical settings. That data is what's considered appropriate and legitimate and those stories would be just like. Oh a nice. Add on or not important Do you ever find attention in your own work. Given you know that you were trained in that biomedical physicians. Sort of system. Totally like i embody the tension. Because when you're mixed blood person you are living into worlds your body memory. Your biology is in different cultures and in different places and i joke about when my undergraduate degree i started off in science and then i was like what am i doing missing a whole part of myself and so i then i started. Studying literature ended up doing both Biology and literature. Because i realized i needed those different dimensions of thinking and being in the world and understanding the world and then getting into medicine. I thought actually it would be a place where they could co exist because is all about story. It's actually about the story of our patients. The stories of our communities the stories of our colleagues the stories of the scientists and their discoveries. and you know you can have the best standard evidence based guideline around. You know caring for someone and treating someone with heart. failure for example with diabetes. But it has to be applied in the context and with the person who's experiencing in living that illness and so it felt like a nice way to bring those together and so on the individual practice level. I don't see that tension. Because i actually see that. Coexistence is being not just fulfilling but necessary to provide really good person. Centered care our community center care. But i see it more as an academic. I'm a leader. Emma you know associate professor and when you have to advocate that the work that you're doing may not fit the usual bill but is really important because the community is telling you it's important but you're having to really push that and push the boundaries of collaboration is important community based work. Research is important stories are important. That's where i feel the tension. Yeah yeah. I know that you're involved in the reloaded to the covid. Nineteen vaccination program. How much vaccine. Hesitancy is present in indigenous communities. Do you know the data out of indigenous services. Canada showing huge amounts of vaccine hesitancy. And i am. I'm always surprised. At how many of my colleagues are not aware of where that comes from. It comes from the history of experimentation. Medical experimentation scientific experimentation whole other hospital system for indigenous peoples in canada called the indian hospital system where indigenous peoples were experimented on and so there are major issues of trust and they need to be addressed and that means not forcing the vaccine on anyone. Because that's what happens and experimentation. It means providing culturally aware and responsive educational materials so that people can make their own decisions around protecting themselves and protecting others. The health care system obviously collects a lot of data about clients which can be useful. But are there concerns that you have about this. Data collection with respect to indigenous clients in particular the whole piece around data with indigenous. Peoples is is really complex and has a long history in like following up on the unethical research and experimentation that happened to indigenous people is also a hesitancy around participating in research and around giving up personal data so because of that there's this really rigorous framework that all researchers are meant to adhere doing it slightly different for inoue may first nations but the principles are the same which are that data about. Indigenous peoples belongs to indigenous peoples. And it's a principle that i think should apply to like probably most people would would relate to like you're taking apart by tissue and you're taking all these numbers about me and you're going to pull the plug them into this big study and now they're no longer mine like particularly when you look at bio specimens right like taking someone's muddy dna alison etc so indigenous peoples. Have just said enough is enough. So if you're going to collect data about us. We need to own that data. We need to know how it's going to be used. We need to be able to access at any point. And we need to be collaborators. In any research projects those are the principles and so when those principles are place maybe people will probably be more forthcoming around participating in self identifying sanyo ordinary show neronha shabair dinner meaty and identify that way. I happy for you to have the access to that but because of the misuse of data and unethical research and because often researchers are still not adhering to those principles many people are actually hesitant to self identify and it is not just because of the misuse of research. It's because of the racism that people experience in the healthcare system. Like why would you identify as an you know first nations person. When you know. The story of brian sinclair joy. Sacha kleiner so many other people. So you know you're gonna be assumptions about assumption of you and your health. And exactly like all of their racist stereotypes. So people may be hesitant and that then actually leads to if you're not identifying as indigenous but you are indigenous and your data goes into that big pool of nonindigenous -cations our clients and then you may bring a significant health concerns that are particular to indigenous people but they're not associated with you as an indigenous person. They actually go into the general pool so it act what it does. Is it actually lessons. It hides the health inequities because the group that has fewer of these poor health outcomes. The indigenous person is joining that dominant group and their health inequities are being reported there. So one of the things we've been exploring on the show is The sort of role that it plays to have indigenous people involved in the creation of new kind of from the gecko so in the in the medical framework. Why do you think it's important for indigenous leaders to be part of the creation of new technologies that end systems. First of all. I always go back to rights. Face frameworks and indigenous rights and the declaration on the rights of indigenous. People are about self determination not thing about us without us any anything related to the health vintage. His people's needs to be led guided and driven by indigenous peoples. When you think specifically around technology there is a huge need because viruses get built in to technology and there was a classic piece about this recently in the new england journal of medicine where actually pulse oximeters which are or oxygen saturation monitors which are worn on the skin to detect your oxygen level. Mis read the oxygen levels of black patients routinely under reported and said. Oh they're option levels are fine when in fact they were not fine because the technology was not programmed for their skin color so it was just here is another classic bias. That's being built into the technology itself. That's actually leading to harm for black patients because their hypoc sek meaning low oxygen levels. And the monitor's not picking that up so that's quite an extreme in concrete example of why need involvement but you know when you look at digital broadband infrastructure across canada. And you look at the crt cmap. The kids are almost all in indigenous communities are communities where there is a predominance of indigenous peoples. And i'm not just talking in remote areas. I'm talking in like one of our largest nations. Outside of a metropolitan center here does not have reliable internet access. And so if you're starting to build a health program based on virtual care which exploded in a great way during covid if you actually are not attending to the fact that you may be in a community where you don't have that proper access and so you know trying to do virtual ultrasound remotely is really not going to work then you're actually going to extend those inequities so i think there's a requirement just to ensure that there's the feasability but i also think going back to that idea around different ways of being knowing and the relationships that i was talking about and the connections to land a community and the four directions of health that is indigenous innovation. That is a different way of being in this world that will inform technology and that will inform new practices digital practices others that will help not just indigenous peoples that will be inspiring innovative for others because the creativity and the way of seeing the world is different so does indigenization healthcare benefit the healthcare system as a whole absolutely. I say that all the time. But i'm always conscious of the fact that indigenous practices ceremonies cultures have been taken away and appropriated so frequently that i worry that. When we talk about in digitizing the healthcare system we will lose the focus on indigenous peoples. So starting if our focus is to build programs that support the well-being of indigenous peoples within our healthcare system. They need to be driving not indigenous peoples. Needs to be leading it. As i've said before but those learnings for a healthcare system for a hospital for a clinic will then translate out because you've got program leaders and innovators and ceo's who are seeing saying. Hey that's that's pretty cool. That's that's really interesting model. Like of course. Why would we separate out physical health and mental health. We know they're entwined forever. We know that emotional wellbeing is like a critical part of feeling healthy as a person. So how can we learn from these ways and actually adopt them. More broadly Lisa thanks so much for your insights on this. Oh yeah no problem. Thanks nora lisa. Richardson is an internal medicine. Physician and strategic lead in indigenous health at women's college hospital in toronto. This interview first aired in january of this year. Ooh listening to spurn from your friends and cbc radio the integration of story into how we understand the world around us is an important one for many indigenous communities earlier in the show. We heard from grace dylan. She's a professor of indigenous nations studies at portland state university. She's known for her work on indigenous future. 'isms a free she coined off work being done around offer future ism in the late nineties and early two thousands for grace art story and ceremony are essential pieces of how we explore are possible futures. But they're also about understanding where we come from. I grew up with a combination of being my nations. So at bay mills nation. We would drop in on garden river nation or with my family and relatives and even the sioux nation of got aunties and uncles. There and i grew up though in a pacifist anarchist setting where it was native founded. It was initially ali founded including my dad. It was in reaction to the vietnam war and also it was an interest in bringing in allies to share of land to not use money barely used money living really simply which was easy for us. That was that was our situation right. But you know growing things at the worst learning geek. Dasa one Which are sciences like with Plants and herbs medicines mckee's medicine and along with that the geeky docile on the every day kind of knowledge that was scientific and integrated we would also have autism. Qanon are sacred stories in our ceremonies. That were always tied in with those so indigenous science for so many that i've run into again i don't wanna characterize it for all of us right but for so many of us that means that with autism with our ceremonies are stories are dances are art making a cradle board in such a way that your little one has intimacy with you in which you could still do many things you know you can gather sweetgrass. You can gather mnuchin amar rice. You can fish. She can do so many things along with this cradle board for the little one that can be with you right. You're not setting that little one aside or giving them to anyone else and that cradle board along the way is not just a plain prayed aboard right. there's artistic embroidery on et. There's so many different kinds of forms. I have to confess by the way that in my family. I was not any good at that. I was the one reading all the time. But would that. What that does then is in indigenous futures limbs one of the fascinating features is that instead of just stam science technology engineering and math. We really embrace steam science technology engineering art and math. And that makes it more harmonious for us brings in great joy. Great curiosity of something that we really enjoy finding out more about now. So so then what ruled a story have or arts have in our understanding of science and technology to me it brings in wonder it brings and curiosity with arden again in a wam kind of separating it out by saying art. It's just that this becomes a part of your everyday living and you learn any fun. A curious happy kind of way and you're inspired to ask more questions to wonder a lot more. I'm suddenly thinking of null. Hops hopkinson Who has two grandmothers and she is And they are tiny no and she's working on a tiny no novel right now and she has Many many beautiful novels but in one cold new moons arms it set in the caribbean and there is an environmental situation where mental justice situation where because of the resource extractions going on in the area. They're losing their fishing. They're losing the shells that they lacked. They're losing a lot of things that are going on in the process. Her grandson goes to school. And so it actually becomes this harmonious exchange of knowledge so rather than pitting indigenous sciences forms of western science. 'cause once again that's a colonizing logic crite is to make things binary To make things take a this group has the screw has not Kinda binary that's a clone geologic. That's hard to get away from. And so in a long these indigenous features films or novels or graphic novels or whatever. They are what they're doing is they're bringing in science in an sciences in the making as bruno latour cul sit Because even was covid nineteen right now with the vaccinations that are coming up. That's a science in the making right or We'll wait to see a result flower. We are very eager to see them very grateful for them but it is a science in the making so when you combine sciences in the making with traditional sciences that have had thousands of thousands of thousands of years of accumulation of intergenerational knowledge when you actually put those together. That's how you can actually solve problems more. That's the implication of indigenous futures. Also right grace. Thank you so much for your insights on this. Oh you're welcome nora and thank you for inviting me to this. This is wonderful. Grace dylan is a professor of indigenous nations studies at portland state university and editor of walking the clouds. An anthology of indigenous science fiction this episode first aired in early january of this year. You can find out more about our guests and the concept of indigenous futures overt our website. Cbc dossier slash spartak. You've been listening to spark the show was made by michelle parisi. Kim casher sammer wiyo yohannes. Adam killick and me nora and by grace dylan lisa. Richardson and jason lewis. Subscribe to spark wherever you get your podcast and you can find us on facebook and twitter spark cbc. I'm nora young thompson for more. Cbc podcasts go to cbc dot ca slash podcasts.