29 Burst results for "Noah Feldman"
Supreme Court rules Trump administration improperly ended program for "Dreamers"
"That's the sound of people celebrating in front of the Supreme Court last Thursday after the supreme. Court ruled that the trump administration had acted unlawfully when it tried to rescind DACA, the deferred action for childhood arrivals program designed to protect people known as dreamers. From a moral standpoint, this is a tremendously gratifying decision. Dreamers about the most sympathetic people you could imagine, and the fact that the trump administration sought their deportation was again from a moral standpoint horrendous. That, said the supreme. Court's decision was itself surprising on the law. The decision was written by chief. Justice John Roberts who is ordinarily a staunch conservative. And as the fact that it was a five to four decision shows, there were grounds that a conservative justice like Roberts could have used. Had He wanted to decide that? What Barack Obama put in place namely the DACA program Donald Trump could remove indeed. Roberts typically has a rather expensive conception of executive power, and although we can know with one hundred percents certainty I would say ninety nine percent probability that several years ago Roberts was one of the justices who voted to strike down an Obama program that was similar to Dhaka aimed at parents. So what was going on here? Why did chief justice? John Roberts choose to leave his conservative. And join the Liberals to keep Daca in place. Sometimes when Roberts issues, apparently liberal decision, it's clear that what he's doing is trying to preserve the appearance of legitimacy of the Supreme Court. Voiding scenario where the public would think of the justices as basically partisan. Roberts understands that the public knows that the Supreme Court justices have different ideologies. What he doesn't want is for the public to think that the justices vote based on the party of the person who appointed that. That may explain Roberts's vote not to entirely strike down obamacare. The affordable care act some years ago. In the case. However Roberts's motivation seems to have been somewhat different. What seems to be motivating, Roberts is a kind of disrespect for the Donald Trump administration's unwillingness to cross. It's t's dots is and follow the rule of law when it comes to issuing important governmental decisions. We saw this a year ago when Roberts also provided the decisive fifth vote to reverse the trump administration's plan to put a citizenship question on the twenty twenty census. Census in that case, as in the DACA case Roberts relied on a law called the administrative precede. ACT, which is the law that gives a federal courts, the authority to oversee and review decisions of administrative bodies in order to determine whether they complied with the procedures that the law demands in particular. The Administrative Procedure Act requires that the government give clear honest and. Justify and reasons for why it's doing what it's doing. And both the census case and the DACA case. Roberts ruled that the government had failed to provide those justifications in essence. Roberts was saying taking the action in question was within the General Authority of the executive branch, but the executive branch didn't do a good enough job of explaining why it did what it did. This kind of judicial supervision of governmental action is crucial to preserving the rule of law, and it's pretty clear that John Roberts no longer trusts the trump administration to do that to be sure at the beginning of the trump administration roberts was willing to give trump the benefit of the doubt. He after all wrote the opinion in the trump against Hawaii case, the one involving the Muslim travel ban in which he upheld the presence authority to issue the version of the travel ban that was in play the time. What seems to have happened subsequently is that has Roberts has gotten a closer and closer look at trump's disrespect for the courts and his disrespect for the rule of law. He's decided to take on the role of defending judiciary defending the rule of law, and if making trump comply. And it may not be a relevant. That Roberts, also had to spend a good chunk of his January sitting in the Senate, listening to the impeachment managers condemnation of Donald, trump, precisely for his disrespect for the rule of law, so if you're wondering whether John Roberts has suddenly become a liberal. Take it from me. He has not I expect more conservative decisions from him possibly even this week or next but John. Roberts has taken up the responsibility of the judiciary to keep an eye on this president. And for that I think everybody liberal or Conservative should be profoundly grateful.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"Been demoralizing and challenging for physicians and unquestionably exhausting. For them listening to Dr Rubens Description. One can only hope that a slowing down in new cases gives a break to the physicians in the ICU's who are dealing with this extraordinarily challenging process of treatment because if there is a second wave we're going to be relying on exactly the same set of physicians to go to the front lines and do it all over again. We're also going to need ventilators. Even though ventilators have not been in the forefront of the news in recent weeks it turns out that that is not because they are somehow less important to treatment than was originally thought their justice significant to the basic treatment mechanisms and again. If we have a resurgence. We're going to be discussing. Wants more enough ventilators to treat everybody. My final thought and I've had it before in speaking front line physicians on deep background. We're just extraordinarily fortunate. As a society to have people like Dr Rubin who spent their whole careers preparing for moments. Like this one. Without any knowledge that suddenly pulmonary care would be at the forefront of our treatment of global pandemic. We're relying very heavily on a certain group of people specialized knowledge right now but the truth is that in any crisis. Some group of people who are properly trained will rise to the fore and become the people we depend on and for that we can only be thankful until the next time I speak to you. Be careful be safe and be well. Deep background is brought to you by pushing industries our producer. Lydia gene caught with research. Help from zooey win. And mastering by Jason Gambro and Martine Gonzalez are showrunner. Is Sophie Kip. Theme Music is composed by Lewis Carroll special. Thanks to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm glad well Jacob Weisberg at me alot. I'm Noah Feldman I also write a regular column for Bloomberg opinion. Would you can find at Bloomberg dot com slash felt to discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts? Go TO BLOOMBERG.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"Let's turn to what's going to happen next. You say the bond markets are a little bit nerve are more than a little bit nervous. They're concerned and if you're right you're also suggesting the possibility that the stock market itself could go down. What's going to happen? How prepared is the government for another crisis? You know for the third leg. The W where having boosted US ALL UP. We go back down again. What would that day look like well? So now you're asking me to to about this murkiness that I said was highly uncertain in hard to predict. We'll give us a range of options. How about that in my telling of it having seen what happens where at the first sign of trouble. The government stepped in and arranged marriage in two thousand eight between J. P. Morgan and bear stearns bear stearns needed a rescue and and and so they were saved. The default didn't occur but then with Lehman Brothers the defaults did occur and with General Motors and Chrysler. The defaulted occurrence so there. Is this question of if we really do finite money? If there is something to be believed in what Mitch? Mcconnell said worrying about the total level of debt and said quite instant eerie things about perhaps municipalities need to default so if the if the D. Word is going to be present and causing pain for investors. I think rationing the stimulus to where it's most needed is. Maybe things are going to evolve in so maybe the answer isn't to save every company. That's going to get hurt because of the Cova Christ's but instead protect the jobs of those companies without necessarily protecting the bondholders. And so. That's that's one way could evolve in that way asset prices can go down bond. Prices certainly can go down. Even stock prices should go down and in that world you know perhaps the better spent on the individual investor and it really raises. I think something that's going on right now. We can see. We don't have to wait for the future. This is something I listened with interest to a week ago said by Larry Summers on Bloomberg TV. Which is if you look at. How companies are scrambling right now to raise money. Almost all of that money is being raised in the market. So just ten days ago Boeing raised twenty five billion dollars through more debt. Ford raised seven billion. Gm fourbillion retailers Coles or gap stores came into the market to borrow more money but summers raise the question on. Is that actually the best thing for the company when when it comes to solve siege off. They not raise equity at the same time were raised significant amounts of equity instead of debt as a way to bolster their Balaji. It as a way for them to have cash without having the obligation to pay it back and so in the way that I think a lot of Americans are said when they see companies take money and go buy back shares in a sense. This is like the inverse of it. Well now they're in trouble. Why don't they issue shares? Why don't they raise money? The Way I saw over my career companies do in times of fear like in two thousand and two when we had Enron defaults in WorldCom a lot of companies a point in time to raise equity and so while it is happening today. The International Steel Company Matale raised some equity United Carnival. Did I think the best answer of why it's not happening is that the management is too afraid to dilute their shareholders in so the amounts of money. They need to raise to deal with the. Cova crisis is so great that they would really be hurting their stock price but they would be shoring up their liquidity and solvency in. So that's to me. The next phase is that whether the government's loans come with equity stakes which basically creates that situation where they are diluted or companies. Do it themselves where they access the markets whether they're forced to or want to through equity which would be a much in my view much better outcome for all. Americans and when you say that the corporate management doesn't want to dilute their shareholders do mean that they're basically just worried that than the shareholders will vote them out. Well part of it is maybe just the amount of money they need to raise it so great that they just couldn't get their curiosity with equity but we're seeing a lot of the capital raising done purely on the debt side so it doesn't answer. Why are they not doing both or are they not doing heavy amounts of equity and I think some of it comes back to the greed of not wanting their share price to go down but by taking out more debt? You're creating a more levered situation. A company that is more exposed to a prolonged downturn leading default in so it might be in the shareholders interest. And I think the Fed in somebody's has encouraged by saying they're going to backstop lending to fallen angels and they're going to buy Diaz when really there should be a lot more equity raised when the government signals that it's willing to basically ensure companies. Why shouldn't they go borrow that money in cash? They're gambling that someone's going to back them up if they fell at fair but let me just close by asking you. What should I be asking you about what's going to happen or what is happening that? I haven't I mean there's obviously a huge amount of complexity here and you've gone very far towards clarifying and simplifying it for the listeners. And for me which I'm really grateful for but what am I not asking you that I should be asking you so the thing that I most want to get off my chest is that I see a market that normal non-professional investors believe is driven by fundamental forces. And I see it more than ever driven by technical forces and to find that what technical forces so instead of what's the intrinsic value of a company worth using financial model. It's who's doing what to whom and in what quantity. How many sellers are there? Compared to buyers. What's the relationship between related instruments such as the debt of a company in the equity of a company? And I see large divergences as an investor. I've always been much more focused on relative value on looking at a company. Let's take a united airlines. Which is having a tremendous issues. They had to shelve a debt deal. They were bringing debt. They did bring a little bit about goody beforehand and they have to solve it over lack of demand and I look at the difference in price between the debt of the US airlines and the equity which still has considerable value. And I and I see a dislocation there compared to history. I see that the debt is actually giving a much more negative picture and so when I look at the market today versus five years ago and even much further back see market really driven by technical forces in so the things that are of interest to my relative value strategies are off the charts interesting right. Now there's a type of trade that we've been doing for about a dozen companies that in my twenty two years of doing this type of trade has never been good in normally. Don't expect that to be you know in a market where we're only ten. Fifteen percent off of the high might take away from that is is that markets are highly unstable because relationships that tend to Poorly are right now breaking down. There's a lot of havoc. There's a lot of market segmentation where some investors are only doing one kind of thing and other investors are doing another and it's led to an opportunity set which is really quite exceptional for my kind of strategy but it also even though I don't have more crystal ball than anyone else. It does. Give me great caution when it comes to the direction of markets. I'm quite worried that the markets are going to be headed lower and that the if the becomes the V. Was already mostly priced in and the risk of it not being. V. Is far greater based on current levels. It's not a cheerful moment on which to end but it is definitely honest and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you go as his account gives us substantial food for thought when we think about the behavior of the financial markets right now? He's validating our general concern that there's something strange about the way that the stock market the equity markets continue to be behaving as though a v-shaped recovery were to be soon expected going forward. The deep question is whether the different signals being sent by bond markets and the stock market will eventually come into coordination logically speaking if they do. There's only two ways that can happen either. Things can get better in the bond markets and they are now or seems much more likely things in the stock market can get a lot worse above all. I'm really struck. The just as were highly dependent upon scientists in a moment of pandemic to try to explain in ordinary language. What's going on? Were also dependent on financial market experts. Try to explain to the rest of us what they see happening in their own very distinctive and very consequential world until the next time. I speak to you be careful. Be Safe and be well. Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is lydia. Jean caught with research help from zooey win. And mastering Jason Gann brow and Martine Gonzalez are show. Runner is Sophie. Mckibben theme music is composed by Lewis. Garra special thanks to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm glad well Jacob Weisberg MEA labelle. I'm Noah Feldman I also write a regular column for Bloomberg opinion but you can find at Bloomberg dot com slash feldman discover. Bloomberg's original slate podcasts. Go TO BLOOMBERG DOT COM slash podcast and one last thing. I just wrote a book called the Arab winter a tragedy. I would be delighted if you checked it out. You can always let me know what you think on twitter about this episode or the book or anything else. My handle is no are Feldman. This is deep background and now as promised. Here's a very special sneak. Peek of the happiness lab season two. So he tell you doing today now. Gripes somebody gripes. Yeah something that's what I remember something. About gripes these days life seems full of things to gripe about but trust me good things can be found even in the worst of situations when the car can't stop. It was in the fast lane of the freeway believe in Guardian Angels but he just appeared out of nowhere. I'm Dr Larry Santos Iran wellbeing class for my students at Yale University. But I wanNA share the science of happiness with you to and let you in on a little secret everything you think you know about. Happiness is probably wrong. Money does buy a little bit of happiness. But it doesn't by a lot of happiness in this podcast you'll hear from top scientists in my field and from some people regard as being true ambassadors for the good life Mardi Lauren pest control operator and I mentioned that. Pj and Alex from their reply all podcast. You guys know mind. Being Guinea pigs no right. So are you ready to feel better than join me for the happiness? Labs new season launching April. Twenty seven. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts..
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"It before we start this episode. I want to tell you about a pushkin show. That's been especially helpful in these stressful and troubling times the happiness lab hosted by Yale Professor. Dr Lori Santos focuses on how to lead a happier life and how understanding our own well-being has never been more important. Dr Santos Studies the latest research and shares surprising and inspiring stories. They will change the way we think about. Happiness recent episodes delve into the effects of social isolation meditation and Compassion Season Two now in full swing explores the benefits of altruism tribalism finding meeting in our work and more. Find it on apple podcasts. Spotify wherever you like to listen. Stay tuned at the end of our episode to hear a special sneak. Peek of the second season of the happiness lapped from Pushkin Industries. This is deep background. The show where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. I'm Noah Feldman this episode is going to be a little different from what we usually do here on deep background because it's involve a switcheroo. It's going to be a conversation between me. And Jacob. Weisberg Jacob is the head of Pushkin Industries which is the podcast production company. That makes this show. He's also the person who had the idea for deep background in the first place and called me and said hey noah maybe wanna try podcast and the reason that I asked Jacob to come on the show and take my job. Is that the conversation we're going to have is about a new book that I wrote. That's being published today called the Arab winter. A tragedy for those of you who've been writing in to say that it's time for us to add some non Kovic topics alongside Cova Coverage. This one's for you. And I promise that will return to covert coverage in very next episode later this week Jacob. Thank you so much for coming to deep background We'll know thanks for inviting me to play you on your show for an episode. It's a tall order. Asa WanNa thank you for Um prompting me to read your new book Arab winter which I really enjoyed. I mean. It's a very short book. Which made it easy. But it's so packed with ideas about what happened in the Arab Spring and challenging. I guess the conventional wisdom that the Arab spring was a complete disaster. Let's go back to the beginning. What was the Arab spring? Where did it happen? Why did it happen? What was it? The Arab spring was a kind of single episode that then spread into a region-wide contagion but the contingent was at least in the first instance. A really good one. It started in Tunisia. A tiny little country barely ten million people and which is not usually thought of as hugely influential in the Middle East. In fact most the time even most people in the Arab world never think about Tunisia at all. And what set it off initially? Was that a poor frustrated fruit-seller who've been subject to abuse from government officials and whose money supply was running out killed himself in a very dramatic way. He set himself on fire. Horrible tragedy and in response to the sense that he had quite literally ignited a sense of protest. Hundreds of thousands of Tunisians ordinary Tunisians from all different social classes different backgrounds started going into the streets and protesting their government's and they developed a couple of key slogans. The most famous was the people. Want the overthrow of the regime. And they chanted it and they chanted it and remarkably in-incredibly within a couple of weeks. The regime gave way and the guy who had been the dictator of the country for almost twenty years left. The country and suddenly people were realizing that they have the opportunity to remake their political system almost entirely so that's how it started but then if they only story it would've been an incredible story it would make a huge success story of one tiny little country. But what happened is that it was contagious. And so what you got. Were what started as copycat demonstrations in much bigger and more consequential countries most famously Egypt and then in Egypt the same story played out again at least initially and people were chanting the same chance and they were watching each other on arabic-speaking satellite TV. So they knew what the other people were saying. The other countries each of these protests had some local flavor. They were substituting the name of their own dictator. But basically the script was repeated. Eh Egypt. It seemed to work to dictator left there too and then it was tried in other countries as well and so it was a kind of sweeping contagion of attempts at political self-determination in a bunch of Arabic speaking countries. So let's talk about Egypt a little bit as the place where the Arab spring seemed to turn dramatically into what you call the Arab winter. I you had this moment. Interior Square where protesters were out demanding. The end of the autocratic regime democratic replacement and they got it they got the Morsi government elected and then people turned out in square again and demanded as it were the end of democracy. Why did that happen? And what do you make of it? These two events which I call for short the Book Talk One or two were book ends to a very very intense year and three quarters in which a lot of things happen some of which seem to follow the correct way that we democratic countries imagine things should go when a dictator comes down and some of which went wildly the other way so the first thing is that it took some time. But after the army had ordered the old dictator Hosni Mubarak to leave their eventually. Were big pretty free public elections and they were machinations. Along the way there was a question of who would be allowed to run for office and could old regime people run for office in what about members of the Muslim Brotherhood which was the largest social slash political organization in the country but ultimately there was an election. It was pretty free and what happened. Is that the Brotherhood candidate won. The presidency narrowly the Brotherhood. Won a plurality. Not a majority of a plurality. In parliamentary elections and the Brotherhood won the chance to craft a new constitution and that panicked a lot of people who were afraid of what used to be called one person one vote one time people who said look if the Muslim Brotherhood rights the Constitution if they become the people who are the dominant political party. They're going to abolish democracy now to be sure that wasn't their claim. They said we're going to be democratic. We're gonNA write a concession. But that was the worry that a lot of people had and slowly but surely various things happened that left those folks more and more concerned and worried but it was a very complicated dance divvied. Just give you the most prominent example the Constitutional Court of Egypt which was made up at the time still of people from the old regime disbanded the legislature itself. The elections had been illegitimate and it disbanded the legislature that left more see who was the newly elected president in a position where he couldn't govern through the legislature. And so then. His critics start saying he's an autocrat. He's an autocratic governing autocratically of course he was governing autocratically because there was no legislature and there was a deep worry that he was going to do the same thing with the constitutional assembly and disband that too and so the Muslim Brotherhood rammed through constitution. Very very fast without listening to dissenters and Morsi himself afraid that the Constitutional Court would block that issued an edict where he said nobody can put me out of office. The Constitutional Court can't put me out of office until the constitution is in place. Now in practice I was only going to be a week or two but then his opponents said look now. He's made himself a dictator and ultimately with that led to is that opponents of the Brotherhood and opponents of the regime came back into the streets and they replicated what they had done in January and February and March of two thousand eleven and they demanded with the same slogans in the same chance but a comparable number of people in the square that the army get rid of the elected Democratic president and after some delay the army dead. And so what happened? Was that the first time they were getting rid of a dictator but the second time they were getting rid of the guy who had been elected president and that led to the army taking over again and that was the end of democracy in Egypt. So that's a real conundrum Noah and you you talk about this at the level of of democratic theory and political philosophy but can there be a democratic decision to eliminate democracy and you know if so why is a democratic decision to do that valid. I mean by making such a decision as it were democratically. You're invalidating. The idea of the democratic decision should be the ones to count. I agree with you. It's a super hard problem. And I really struggled with it and I try to show that struggle in the book and try to lay out both sides of the possible view. I mean you could take the view. I don't take but you could take the view that when the people with a capital p get together and demand democracy. That's legitimate that's Democratic. Because they're asking for democracy but when the same people get together and say we don't want democracy anymore. We want to get rid of Democratic leader. That's undemocratic and in the end. I don't buy that. And the reason I don't buy it is that what makes the choice of democracy in the first place. Legitimate isn't that. There's some fair process or fair procedure for democracy. I mean what it really amounts to is a lot of people going to the Public Square and saying get rid of the dictator Egypt. They didn't even say give us democracy. They said.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"You understand life in the time of Kobe. Nineteen they explained the latest developments in health and science. And tell you what effect they're having governments economies and your life. You can subscribe to this. Show on Apple podcasts. Spotify OR WHEREVER YOU LIST. Thanks and stay safe a magical realism got. The first coronas. Shout has been within a couple of days of people starting to talk about. Everyone was saying love in the time of prone eleven to time run and I remember the first person who texted that to me. I thought Oh my God dispersions the cleverest person I've ever met and then very quickly. I realized that you know the high of mine had thought of this. And I don't know if anyone is actually out there reading Marquez now but there is something about the kind of slowing of pace in magical realism and something about the slight tweaks to the world. That does seem just almost intuitively for the moment right and it's also funny. 'cause the question that collected national populism is also interesting because on the one hand it's about the individual authors imagination on the other hand. It's about juxtaposing certain traditions. That are non imperialist Western traditions and bringing that into the world of the novel. Kind of showing. The novel doesn't have to be released in the sense that if the nineteenth century British adventure novel agent to be and how does that angle kick in here? Because I have this instinct that one of the weirdest things about co vid. Is that people in broadly speaking the rich west or north or call. Whatever you which are accustomed in our era to thinking of pandemics as things that all the time to other people Zeka in Latin America or Ebola in Africa or earlier versions of SARS in China. So if you think of Marquess or something like that you're thinking of again non-western quote unquote literature as the more contemporary literature of pandemic talking about it in terms of past present and features always fascinating to part because like I don't quite identify with that Western subjectivity as a Polish person and because part of land the disc for moving to the United States. Those fifteen years ago now was because I kind of wanted to live in the future. That didn't want to wait until gay rights were okay. A future in Poland so I thought I could have jumped a decade. And that's how they felt and I and how does it feel now especially with reference to the pandemic is it? There's sort of flattening. We're all sort of in the same situation. Yes and they think there's a big difference in the kinds of memories to spring back because my family in Poland. I find myself talking to them a lot about my grandmother's memories of the war. Which for her and for a lot of the people I know who are the people who survive was all about trying to wait it out and occasionally having something very dramatic happen which would become the story that you told people that most of the time you were just kind of trying to be in the potato field when the planes came and not to be saying yes. I think it's weird an interesting. What kinds of Trans Generational memories that brings up in would parts of my heritage of close to because in some senses? It's been making me feel more connected to a certain part of Eastern European. That happened in a while. It is really really interesting that the experience of waiting is a common thread. You know were waiting for something and we're sort of hoping to hoping to get through it to the other side. Yeah Komo is my last topic to bring up. I mean I think we've hit all the the big three of the corona literature discussion. Have you heard or read anything or thought anything around the Komo that was value or of interest? I think I've been thinking in parts in relation to the notion of the play time trial. Meaning People's real character comes out and what it means for that to be put on your real character. Emergency certainly bring the foreground certain parts of ourselves and they're valuable parts of ourselves. But how do they relate to the rest of reality and been leading in my World War Two phase of my code reading? I've been reading Jones IOS occupation journal. He's a French novelist. It's a journal from the occupation of France on by the Germans which is coming out in its first English translation and one of the things he meditates about is kind of what those situations emergency due to people. And he says there are some people who think they're really strong and then the occupation shows them to be weak and then there are people who have always imagined selves to be weak. But a situation of crisis Ashley shows them to be unconsciously very strong and then he says there's third person which surprise surprise as most valuable of all which is stay true to themselves and who are able to act in a crisis the way they would in an everyday situation in and that's another thing I've been wondering about in relation to the existentialist view of covert. Which is kind of what are we to do with what it makes us. And how do we on the one hand allow ourselves to think seriously about the things that forces us to think about like socioeconomic inequality like our own lives our own choices without succumbing to the fallacy of everything I think period of isolation is true or everything I do in this moment is the essential part of me and probably those answers will be different to different people. Martha thank you very much for the conversation I really I learned at ut amount as always. It's so fun to talk to you. My pleasure listening to Marta really brought home to me too. Pretty different aspects of our inner experiences of sitting at home and reading books during Corona on the one hand. There's the individual experience. Marta talked about being Polish coming to the United States and how that affects her experiences in engaging with literature and with ideas each of us has our own individual path to follow and indeed. Our Conversation about existentialism puts the Individual's judgment and the individual's ability to make a choice front and center in our experiences yet at the same time. Marta also brought home that. There's a universal collective experience. They were undergoing in relation to the corona virus and literature is a mechanism whereby we collectively process and think about experience. Books are meant to be read by more than one person their ways of engaging the world that are shared at least between the writer and the reader and ideally of many more people as well our collective life experiences are being shaped by Corona. We're alone but we're alone together until the next time I speak to you. Be careful. Be Safe and be well. Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is lydia. Jean Kahn with research help from zooey win. Mastering is by Jason Gambro Martine Gonzalez or showrunner. Sophie mckibben our theme music is composed by Louis skara special. Thanks to the push. Brass Malcolm Gladwin Jacob Weisberg and Yellow Bell. I'm Noah Feldman I also write a regular column for Bloomberg opinion which you can find it at Bloomberg dot com slash fell to discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts. Go TO BLOOMBERG DOT COM slash podcasts. You can follow me on twitter. At Noah are feldman.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"Have you? Have you seen what plan? And if you haven't seen it and I haven't seen it there is no Glam. I mean I think yeah. There's a lot of magical thinking there's a lot of thought about well. Maybe we could hold out until there's a vaccine but there may not be a vaccine. There's a lot of thought of. We have to hold out until the therapies. Get much better. But we don't have any guarantee that the therapies will work and then in the fallback is when people say herd immunity in some generic sense is are. They knew exactly what that meant. And that's obviously a scenario in which will be very difficult to avoid overwhelming hospitals. So I agree with you so I have in my global health. Career spent a lot of time responding to breaks. You know non like this but in disaster settings you know you have to move quickly and make decisions in the context of uncertainty. You know in the US. We are not as used to doing that because we have always really got the resources to do the modeling and get the science and wait until it's perfect and I think we have to move ahead with making decisions that are imperfect using the best data that we have but we do have to use the data that we have. I mean we have to move forward so you know technology and other ideas. They may seem ambitious. Contact tracing might seem. Oh it's not. Feasible is too many the way to be successful is just to take like the next step forward and believe it's possible and he building as as you're doing this. I think that's what we have to think about Or else you know. We're just going to be stuck. Thank you so much. This is tremendously clarifying. And there are bits of it that are inspiring and make one think there is a way forward and then there are bits of it that cause one to feel a bit more panic and I really appreciate your honesty about it. Thank you all right. Thank you here on deep background. We've spoken to several guests. Who focused on the mechanisms that we can use gradually to emerge from the conditions of social isolation that were presently in testing has been a consistent theme that we've heard about again and again and again more and better testing speaking to Dr Carver's makes it clear that the testing is primarily valuable however to the extent that it is then used to lead to contact tracing and the idea is contracting itself. Can help manage the disease? This may be the only long run strategy that can be used in the absence of a vaccine. And in the absence of better therapies but contact tracing on its own is not a magic bullet. You have to reach enough people. And that's a challenge. It's also very difficult to make contract tracing work in a scenario where as we have the disease has spread into the entire community. And we're not just tracking down a handful of names contact. Tracing is going to be central to our public discussion in the weeks and months ahead. Its successes its limitations and the challenges that it faces we will keep a close eye on this subject going forward and come back with more of our contact tracing as story develops until I speak to next time. Be careful be safe and be well. Deep background is brought to you by pushing industries our producer. Is Lydia Jean Cot with research? Help from zooey win. Mastering is by Jason Gabrielle and Martine Bundles. Her showrunner is Sophie mckibben. Our theme music is composed by Luiz. Gara- special thanks to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm glad well Jacob Weisberg and Mellow Bell. I'm Noah Feldman I also write a regular column for Bloomberg opinion. Would you can find at Bloomberg dot com slash feldman to discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts? Go TO BLOOMBERG DOT COM slash podcasts. You can follow me on twitter. At Noah are feldman this is deep background..
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"From Pushkin Industries. This is deep background. The show where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. I'm Noah Feldman a few weeks ago on the show. I spoke to Nobel Prize economist. Paul Romer and Paul had what he considered a simple plan to reopen the economy without risking people's health. All we need to do is switch to a strategy where we're testing everybody with regularity. As soon as we find somebody who's positive we to isolate them without isolating watts of people who've could otherwise just go back to the daily life and work. Paul is not alone. Public Health experts have been almost unanimous in saying that we need a lot of tests very soon in order to protect health and eventually reopened the economy and yet we are behind Germany Canada and even Italy when it comes to per capita testing and as of now less than one percent of the. Us population has been tested for corona virus. So what is the holdup? What are the bottlenecks that stand between us and effective tasked to learn more about krona virus testing both for diagnosis and then for antibody tests if people have already had the disease? I'm joined by Dr. Oh Mike Garner. He's the director of clinical microbiology testing. Ucla health his lab does more than one point five million tests a year of all kinds and so he finds himself right in the thick of the question of how we tested for covert Omar. I'm so grateful to you for agreeing to talk to me. I want to ask you to help. Guide us through the process of just. Why testing takes so long to generate and to cause to function. So start wherever you want. Maybe start with the diagnostic tests. I what are the challenges to having millions of diagnostic tests up and running on a daily basis? You know that's the million dollar question. I think that there are lots of challenges for many ends and so just. I think it's useful to walk through the process of getting a diagnostic test for Kobe. Nineteen by Ar because it starts to that outlay with the challenges are in the system and so the first part of the diagnostic test is the collection of the sample. This is the part. I think people are most familiar with you either. Go to your doctor's office or a hospital or a drive through. Location and a swab is inserted deep into the nasal cavity and then that sample is sent to a centralized testing lab. I think there's been a little bit of confusion around this. Because they call those locations testing locations but no actual testing happens there and so I think people think why would it take so long if the test happens right where you collected it so. The sample needs to be sent to a centralized laboratory like my laboratory where we perform the test and the test. Depending on which platform is us can take anywhere from two to six hours and I think this is also something. That's not well known because if the test only takes two to six hours why are people waiting seven to fourteen days to be able to test result right now? I think one of the infrastructure challenges around this particular outbreak and testing itself is that there are just not enough centralized laboratories that are able to do this testing right now and this starts to key in on why we don't have testing across the country and a lot of and we have labs so it's not to say that there aren't centralized clinical laboratories there are centralized clinical laboratories and almost every single city across this country. The challenges that each one of those laboratories does not have the equipment to be able to test for cove in nineteen and the labs that do have the equipment. There's such a shortage on the tests themselves. That many labs that have the equipment still can't run. The capacity of tests could run within a day. One of the fascinating questions to me is is. There's some alternative technology. Potentially in the pipeline. That would make it easier to collect samples by means other than the long swab that goes deep into the nasal cavity and Donald Trump himself said it was a miserable experience for him to have that done in. Though I'm not super worried about his own experience it does mark the fact that we need not only the swabs that we need medical professionals to do swabbing whereas it might be a lot faster and more efficient people could do it at home or there was a saliva test right now. Why is it the case that we can't do that? I think a lot of this is about clinical sensitivity of what you're collecting and when I say that I mean how likely is it for a false negative to be given to a patient so in the environment of cove in nineteen. We want to try our best to avoid a false negative and in order to do that. You WanNa take the best possible specimen to increase your likelihood of actually collecting virus. Now this is really then the question is. Where's the virus right? Is the virus out at the end of the nasal cavity is the virus very very deep in the nasal cavity. Is the virus in the throat. Is the virus in different? Various oral fluid compartments and the reason why nasal for NGO collection was the first thing that was used is because that's where we know other respiratory viruses live and so whether you're doing a PR test for influenza or a PR tests for something like respiratory virus. The best possible specimen meaning the specimen that gives you the highest likelihood for recovery of virus is actually that really deep nasal for NGOs specimen so then I think ultimately the question is. Do you need to take the best possible specimen or in this particular case with this particular virus? Can you find an equal amount of virus in some of these other specimens and those studies are ongoing? I agree with you if we could just use ORAL FLUID. I would change all my tests oral fluid tomorrow but I won't do it if it's going to mean we produce more false negatives now let's turn to the lab so you're saying the sample comes to you reaches you in the lab and you're going to perform a PR test what is a PR test. The test is actually two components with being the second component. So the first component is really. It's called extraction. And what happens? Is that when the sample comes in? This first step actually takes out all the nucleic acid from that sample and so now what you have instead of the full sample from the patient you just have a pool of origny and then you run the PR tests and so the test is called an RTP test. It's a reverse transcription polymerase reaction that's that. Rtp CR and what it does is because we're looking for Arnie. Pcr's technology that examines DNA. So the first step is you have to turn the Arnie into DNA and that stat reverse transcription the second test. That is the polymerase chain reaction. And the plumbers chain-reaction is really a way to amplify a specific target on DNA to see whether or not that target is there. And of course the target we're looking for is cove in nineteen and so if some of that viral Arnaiz there. It's been converted to DNA and then. Pcr can target to tell you whether or not that viral aren't was originally in that specimen and exquisitely sensitive the tests that we're using in my laboratory. Get down to about five hundred copies of virus per meal of fluid. And so what? I'd like to Tell People. Is that if the virus is in the sample the test will find it. That's super clarifying and helpful. Now you said that are enough laboratories in the United States to handle even substantial volume of testing and that the problem is that they don't have the necessary equipment in a concrete sense. What is missing in these labs because if we could figure out what that is. Maybe we can talk about how we provided. Sure so there are now. I don't know somewhere around twelve. Fda emergency use authorization approved PCR tests for cove in nineteen the challenges that the manufacturers of those tests need to get those tests to those laboratories to be able to provide testing so giving an example from my own laboratory. I actually run four different. Fda approved test for cove in nineteen. And the reason. Why do that is because I can't get one manufacturer to give me enough volume of test kits to meet the need so I actually have to bring in four different tests to be able to do that. You get a couple of hundred a day from one place you get a couple of hundred a day from another place and you combine all of that volume together and I can get up around the thousand tests a day or so that I can offer in my laboratory. This is a significant challenge in the shortage by the manufacturers.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"Let's turn to some more of the concrete plagues now and see if we can come up with anything interesting about them. So the frogs. I've always been fascinated by the frogs. Essentially all of the other plagues or miracles. Sound Jimmy sort of vaguely plausible large number of locus eating everything that happens sometimes in the world. You know pestilence animals. Dying that happens boils definitely disgusting and that happens. Even the which may be doesn't exactly happen in the way that it's depicted in the biblical texts. You there are clips as you can imagine people extending from that but the inundation of an entire country by frogs is always a little weird outlying. Did you have any insight into that? What'S THE FROGS? I mean I agree with you. That frogs taking over whole country sounds relatively implausible. Even as a once in a millenium sort of event. I'm not an expert on on Ecology on the habitat of frogs. But my understanding is that they're amphibians and don't like to be very far from the water at all so assuming that all of Egypt's didn't become marshland. I'm not sure how frogs could have survived and the city centres all right. Well we'll have to leave frogs then as a as a mystery for the moment what about the plague that in Hebrew is called a rove and which usually gets translated in most English translations as a mixture of wild animals or something to that effect. The word literally means a mixture. If you think of the children's picture books of the plagues he's sort of imagined. Lions and tigers and other things walking around which notably are never mentioned in the biblical text. What is this confusing? Played probably meant to have been in the original context. Yes I mean it's worth pointing out with the question of what it means literally so as you say the route I'm laced bed of this word is something that sometimes has connotations of mixture although that same route other times has different connotations. It's the root of the word West and related Ly- The root associated with With evening and so it has various different meanings that that route and in the case of Of this particular played some of the ancient translations suggest that this was some sort of insect fly perhaps not entirely dissimilar from the plague of what we call lice her coming in Hebrew down. Let's fast forward to as it were the granddaddy of them. All the plague of the death of the first born August may be the most Maybe I don't know if it's the most corona appropriate but it certainly the one that involves the warning that people leave their homes until the day. And so there's a there's a little bit of self-isolation going on at the at the family level and it's also the one of the most embedded in the story of actually children visceral getting up and leaving. Why do you think the firstborn are so much in in play here? Why not just you know play. It kills off all of your offspring. Or maybe it's about farrow being the king at any thoughts on the firstborn aspect. That's a really good question. I think that there is something even more impressive about killing just the firstborn than say killing everyone. And if you're going to kill anyone than killing. The first born is is really devastating. It really is it appropriate as a climactic plague in terms of the the impact. I think that it it at least bills when when I read it like an an and particularly traumatic event part of that might be totally literary that. It's more expensive description where we have say for for frogs or lice. But there's something about both afflicting. Everyone end the proving the power proving that this isn't just a pandemic but something that can only be the hand of God in the fact that it's just the firstborns who are afflicted that really shows who's in charge. I wonder if I could close by asking you a more personal question and this you know you maintain a traditional Jewish practice. You know you go to the synagogue you perform the rituals you keep the sabbath and you're also a brilliant and pathbreaking Bible scholar who engages with the biblical narratives as large when you think about Passover. Do you draw a line. Do you think well at the Passover? Seder all talked like traditionalist or do you think no like this is how I tell the story of the past the rabbi say whoever says more about telling the Passover story deserves praise your view of yourself at least telling more about the story includes the kind of historical analysis that we were just doing for me personally. Does these are the things that I enjoy? I delight in reading the texts critically in thinking about the historical context and you know actual historical events that may or may not be reflected in these texts and traditions. So I grew up like my parents and grandparents doing the Passover Seder every year and extremely important to me in part of my heritage. But I do like to ask questions. And you know that famously is one of the Points of the Passover. Seder is to. Have you know the children ask questions and I haven't grown out of that and and so every year. I do like to think about the problems and the complications and the evolution of the different traditions and the multiplicity of traditions. In fact you know a wonderful thing is that you know one of the elements one of the central elements of B. Passover. Seder is this sort of codified question asking and so to me these layers upon layers of questions the Passover state areas designed to inspire questions and even the questions that are being asked have questions that can be asked about them. And that's my favorite part of the Passover Seder. Well I appreciate it on your giving us a version of the Passover Seder where it is the origin of your engagement with Biblical criticism. So I appreciate that very much. I'm very grateful to Don for joining me for our special Passover episode. I know you're working on some very big things and with any luck When those Republicans? We'll have you back to report on those other projects to thank you very much for joining me. Thank you talking to. Don made me feel ready to try in a limited sort of way to re-engage some of that tradition and some of that ritual in the form of a Passover Seder. I hope it had that effect for you whether you're celebrating. Passover Easter or none of the above until the next time I talked to be careful. Be Safe be well and enjoy. Whatever holidays worked for you? Deep background is brought to you by pushing industries our producer. Lydia Jean Cot with research help from zooey win. Mastering is by Jason Gambro and Martine Gonzalez or showrunner is Sophie mcgibbon. Our theme music is composed by Louis. Garra special thanks to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm glad well Jacob Weisberg and Yellow Bell. I'm Noah Feldman I also had a regular column for Bloomberg opinion which you can find at Bloomberg Dot Com Slash. Feld to discover Bloomberg's original slate of PODCASTS. Go TO BLOOMBERG DOT COM slash podcasts. You can follow me on twitter. At Noah Feldman.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"The from Pushkin Industries. This is deep background. The show where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. I'm Noah Feldman every week we try to give you the story behind the stories but in this episode. It's a little bit different. We're going to explore how we feel about the news or specifically how we feel about corona virus in this strange moment where the epidemic is dominating our headlines. It's even more important than ever to pay attention to our emotions to our well. Being and to how those things relate to the stories we read in the news life as we know it is turned upside down. Schools are closed. Offices are closed long lines at supermarkets. It's very easy to feel anxious. It's very easy to feel hopeless but Lori. Santos has some good tips for how to cope or she would probably put it how to regulate herself. She's professor of psychology at Yale University. Where one of her classes called psychology and the good life has become the most popular class in the history of Yale University and has attracted five hundred thousand students on Sarah. You heard that right. Pushkin fans may also know Laurie as the host of the happiness. Loud for podcast where she uses scientific research to talk about how to achieve and maintain happiness and well-being in life. Needless to say Lori is more than qualified to help us deal with corona virus anxiety. She is in fact the one goto expert that you can think of laureate. Let's just start with your own personal experience and what you're doing to stay happy. You're in charge of a college of three hundred or four hundred undergraduates who are all have all flown the coup. So you have a very large very empty nest. How are you handling it? It's been surreal and really sad honestly. Y'All had this very incredible situation. Where as corona is emerging as this awful threat was while our students were on spring break. So yell made the really hard decision to kick students off campus when they are all off on spring break wherever they were. You know so. We had students who were in Cancun with a small backpack and things and they're told hey don't come back you know we'll figure out a way to get your text books in your laptops and all that stuff back to you and so for our students. It was really frantic right because they didn't even get to say goodbye to their friends or pack up their stuff. Many of them don't know when they're getting their stuff because we can't let them on campus and so managing that ICTY for four hundred other students at the same time as I'm managing my own anxiety and I'm sad I don't get to say goodbye to these students and I'm uncertain about what's going to happen next and how long it's GonNa take so it's been it's been a lot both processing it myself and seeing it through the students is you sound very much unsurprisingly in touch with what you're feeling which is excellent for the rest of us it may not always be simple to access our full set of feelings. How important is it in your view for us to try to be more or less aware of were conscious of the strain? Different emotions that are coursing through all of us. Still Right now I mean I think it's absolutely essential if for the only reason that the only way we're gonNA make it through. This crisis is to make sure our immune systems are functioning at their absolutely optimal level to protect us against this physical health threat. And I think that means that we need to take the mental health threat of this crisis really seriously like we're plunging people into social distancing basically not letting them do the one thing that they really want to do at this time in their life to feel connected and close with other people you know. Hug their mom. We basically can't do that anymore. I think we know that. Just the anxiety and uncertainty of the situation is the kind of thing that can lead to say. Have things like panic attacks and so on one of the most awful things is that you know Amine Symptom of Krona viruses that you have the shortness of breath. That's also the main symptom of feeling anxious right and so. I think a lot of us are even seeing these phantom symptoms and wondering you know do I have am. I really shorter breath. What am I feeling and so I think getting through this crisis successfully is going to require a lot. It's going to require figuring out political infrastructure of figuring out medical infrastructure. But I think it's also going to involve all of us individually doing everything we can to make sure we're flourishing as much as we can to keep ourselves sane and physically healthy. Were you hinting as I thought? Maybe you were that there might actually be some clinical connection between mental wellbeing and a well-functioning immune system. Oh there's so much evidence that immune function really requires not having stress and so on. So we know for example. That really upping your sympathetic nervous system function can affect immune functioning to right so. I think allowing yourself to be incredibly stressed out allowing yourself not to sleep that much. Both those things are not great for protecting your body against viruses and add to that the kind of panic eating that we're all doing of sugar and ice cream in these kinds of things. These aren't great for our bodies to fight off. Threats like normal level threats let alone the kind of threat that we're facing so violently contagious. I'm impressed you still have ice cream left. I had to. Md everything out of my everything in my freezer to put in the vast amounts of protein. That I need to support to growing teams is the plus and minus of living in a huge bunker that is normally their support. Four hundred students once. My college is empty. I'm sitting on freezers of thirty pounds of Mozzarella sticks and so on so I really have to keep for the panicky check. Can I ask you about something? That's really been on my mind. And you you alluded to it earlier when you mentioned that we can't do something that gives us a great sense of wellbeing namely to have meaningful human contact. I'm concerned that there's like a corona associated social media paradox and the paradox is on the one hand as you've shown in other people have shown too much reliance on phones and other technologies can actually have an alienating effect on our ability to form meaningful social connections and yet in this current moment when we say well how will we maintain social connection the immediate answer that everyone has let's use zoom. Let's use facetime. Let's transform snapchat from something that I'm trying to keep my kids off to something which I'm encouraging them to use in reasonable proportion. So is there in fact some social media paradox in this moment. Yeah I think even I even had some folks criticizing me over email. Because we've just for our own Pushkin. Podcast the happiness that we just started a facebook group because people wanNA connect in his time and people wrote to me saying like didn't you and your course say that facebook is really bad for us and it promotes anxiety and depression. And yes so. I think there's a a paradox. There I think for a long time technology in particular kinds of technology right using our phone to scroll through instagram. Feed rather than picking up our phone and like calling a parent from far away. We are often using technology in ways that socially limit us that prevent us from connecting with other people. The irony is that that is all we have right now. We can't physically connect with people and the way we normally would but these technologies are really going to be a lifeline. The key is that we have to use them the right way and I think most of us haven't built up the right muscles for how to use these technologies in a positive way to connect with people so for example. My first instinct when I'm feeling a little anxious to hop on twitter or to hop on facebook and just kind of scroll through like my instinct is like that will make me feel social. I'll see what other people are talking about. But that is having exactly the wrong reaction like. I'm not really connecting with people in real time. I'm kind of experiencing all their anxiety from their posts. A Better Way to connect with folks would be to use things like facetime resume when you can see people in real time see their expressions talk with them See the kinds of things that they're doing. Maybe even have shared activities together. We can watch netflix together or cook a meal together. Those things the science suggests are ways that technology really can connect us for the most part. I mean we do lose some things by having things on technology. Obviously things like touch and so on but for the most part in real life conversation where we are in real time watching video of what. Someone's doing if you have a decent connection that can make you feel incredibly connected and it's the one thing that a lot of us are going to rely on and so I think we need to be careful about this paradox because some people have this knee jerk. Reaction of like technology is bad. It's GonNa hurt social connection given that that's all we have. We need to find the best ways to make use of it so that we can decrease loneliness in this really potentially really lonely time so then to summarize than professor. Santos's lesson number one for social media. Is something like talk. Don't scroll yes. Yeah get close to replicating an unreal an IRA L. Human connection is as you can and avoid the scroll which we know is Is Not the most heartening undertaking as exactly right and I think I love the use. The word real social connection and it's important to remember what that looks like. That doesn't look like a work meeting where we scheduled on zoom and we meet exactly at seven PM and so on. That looks like I run into somebody at the water cooler or just chat with somebody at the coffee shop. We need to find ways to use these technologies in really like low key kinds of ways. That don't feel so formal so I I love. I keep hearing from friends who are using things like facetime to kind of make dinner together where you just put it on in the background. You're running around chasing after your kids and like when you can come to the screen you come to the screen. But it doesn't feel as formal I did this with my college roommates last night and we did a spa night together so once someone was steaming their face and someone was putting on a mask and someone was just like paying their nails. It's not formal. It's kind of low key. That's what we need right now. What we're losing is the low key stuff that kind of informal ways of running into each other but again if we if you kind of do a little scheduling and use these technologies. We can replicate that mostly. Well any advice on how to break the ice in those situations. I mean if you're with your college roommates where people you've loved for many years it might be a little easier than with people who are sort of in the middle ground that you you know when you like you know I have found that the distance between formal encountering non-formal encounter in these spaces is actually kind of big and I. I feel a little awkward even with people colleagues that I might sit down after. We're GONNA have a drink with one of them said well. Why don't we have a drink on zoom or on on facetime and I said yes but keep on laying because I think I'm worried that it'll be awkward. Yeah I think this is another spot where our minds lied to us. I think the startup cost is awkward. You know what I mean like we all have the like oh is your mic on like. Oh move your thing. I can't see your face there. Is that awkward startup cost. There's no question but once you get into it. It's actually a lot more pleasant than we expect. I think we put too much emphasis on that startup cost which causes us not to schedule these things but in practice once you do them. I mean I've had lots of different versions of these now because we've been kind of stuck in the house for about two and a half weeks now and all of them kind of feel like they're going to be awkward but in practice they work out pretty well with one group of friends. We did games with a roommate of mine from Grad school and like her ex boyfriend slash friend and he was in a different spot and we decided to play celebrity. Like done like you know party game and I was like this is just not going to work and I was again kind of dreading it and like putting off doing it but then in practice ones we did it. You know fifteen minutes in. We were playing the game and it was fine so our minds adapt incredibly quickly to these technologies. We just have to overcome that misconception. That it's not going to be fun or it's just going to be too awkward so it's not worth it. We'll.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"From Pushkin Industries. This is deep background. The show where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. I'm Noah Feldman we're all in the process of doing our best to social distance to stop the spread of Corona virus and for most of us and probably should be for all of us that basically means self imposed isolation of a certain degree but there are many people in the United States whose isolation is involuntary and that is people who are incarcerated in jails in prisons were an immigration detention centers. Run by ice prisoners have already tested positive for corona virus in New York in Georgia and other states as well that's going to continue and officials are scrambling to figure out how to stop the spread inside of institutions like prisons and jails to discuss the situation. I spoke to Dr Homer vendors until recently. He was the chief medical officer of the New York City Correctional Health Services now. He's president of an organization called Community Oriented Correctional Health Services which is a nonprofit builds partnerships between jails and community healthcare providers. He has a new book called life and death in rikers island. Which is precisely about the health. Risks of incarceration and he was involved in two thousand and nine in New York. City's efforts to deal with the H One n one virus. It was spreading inside of Records Island in short. Dr Ventures is really the perfect person to speak to about this problem. We spoke on Monday morning a home as of this morning New York City corrections where you used to be. The director of Health for the entire system is reporting thirty. Eight cases of corona among either inmates or prison staff were jail staff. How worried should we be about that number? I think that that number should cause alarm. That should make us think about not. Just what's happening to people who are detained in the New York City? Jails and the people who work there But every single one of the five thousand jails and prisons and ice detention centers across the country. I think this is a a very small foreshadowing of things to come and and Implications for the survival. The welfare of the people who are in these places who work in these places is really in peril and this is just the first of what I fear will be many many more headlines reports like this around the country many of the places by the way they have far fewer health resources are less access from the press from outside is so. I think this is the beginning of you. Know what we've been worrying about is is going to be a significant feature of this outbreak. A lot of us have a visual image of what it's actually like inside a jail or prison only from television and in fact mostly from fictional television. Would you explain a little bit to us? About how conditions. For example in a big city jail like rikers are especially conducive to the transmission of infectious disease. Yeah I think that there's some features of jails that we might generally understand that really contribute to the transmission of communicable diseases of the fact that there are lots of people in various small spaces and those people are jammed into housing areas. That whether they're a dorm or comprised of sells it still lots of people. In small space sharing a congregate bathrooms and sinks people to go from one part of the jail. The other have to go through hallways and go through these things called Sally. Ports or control hubs where they all jammed in and you have a gate that closes behind you before a gate can open in front of you. There's intake areas where people come in especially in county. Jails that have such a high churn. You know half the people are gone by day. Ten or fifteen so. They're constantly filling up with newly arrested and detained people. Those folks are coming in through these intake pens. That are very teeming with people. Just scores of people in small spaces. Nowhere to sit laying on the floor and that's all the physical plant. Then if you add in the fact that most of these places are filthy. They have incredibly bad sanitation You have garbage food trays. Other types of trash built up all over the place they really promote the spread of communicable diseases during normal times during Outbreak response The way that they're built and designed and run promotes the spread of disease. One reaction that I had when I thinking about incarcerated population. Is that the lockdown which is sometimes the word that we use colloquially to describe. What's happening to everybody else? I mean I know that Governor Cuomo and you WANNA call it a pause and in California they call it a stay in place order and other so called shelter in place but lockdown. It's still to the vernacular phrase that comes from prison. I mean that's a prison metaphor and that might create the impression in. Somebody's mind I think did it. My first uneducated thought before I started reading what you were writing about this that actually prisons might be manageable because you actually do have the capacity to control the movement of prisoners but on closer examination of what you've been saying that seems completely misguided and I wonder if he would just say a word about that because I think I might not be the only person who has that instinct. Yeah I think that you know prisons and jails are built for punishment and security control of people of humans. I think that we all have this desire to stop. The movement of this virus through our society and a lot of really important measures were all engaged in to try and do that The problem in prisons in jails and correctional spaces is that lockdown generally means putting people into locked cells often sometimes dorms but often we use. It's used in terms of sales locking people into cells and then keeping them there and then only bring them out for certain circumstances and the ideas that the problem will stay in the cell and so in this circumstance the and what I would say is inappropriate use of lockdowns as the primary response to Corona virus. The notion would be that. If you lock everybody into cells then the virus either won't get in or if it's in the cell it won't get out it won't move around the facility that is erroneous for a number of reasons. First of all people who are locked down being punished whether whatever you say is the reason for it when you go get locked into a sal. When you're going into solitary it causes a lot of stress. People don't like it. It is associated with suicide and self harm and so people don't want to go into those cells then to institute a lockdown that means the all sudden they're gonNA ask your correctional staff to put their hands on a lot of people to have a lot more physical contact with people Sometimes uses a force that get them into these cells and then every time they come out of their cells for a shower if they come out to go to the medical unit if they come out for any other reason. You're often than in this position of having to have to escort officers handcuffed them. Escort them physically. All of that is really escalating. The amount of physical contact between humans in these facilities. The other real core problem with is that when people get sick and we know. They're getting sick when they're locked in a cell. You don't see that correctional officers coming by every fifteen minutes or thirty minutes to Peek. Through a you know a dimly illuminated vision panel or window and a cell door is not the way that you keep an eye on people that you're worried about getting sick or dying. So the lockdown as a public health response is not appropriate as the primary measure and in many ways it can actually increase the flow of the virus into and out of Said audie obviously the most immediate ethical. Worry that I think we all need to have with respect to incarcerated. People is that it shouldn't be the case that if someone is being locked up there being essentially put in a situation you know like being put on a cruise ship but involuntarily and with much worse conditions which is likely to significantly increase their chance of getting sick and dying. But I assume there's also a concern for the general public associated with enabling a corona virus to spread rapidly within jails and prisons partly because corrections officers are coming and going and so it will spread into the general population partly because of resource allocation issues. Because if you get a big outbreak a lot of Resources are inevitably going to be called on. Even if they were not distributed in a fair way what do you see as the main concern for the general public here? I mean putting aside very pressing ethical concern that we shouldn't be arresting people for minor offenses and then putting them in a place where they have a better chance of catching disease dying. Yeah I think the simplest way I could put it. As a correctional settings prisons jails and detention centers are going to drive this epidemic curve. Straight up So we hear about trying to flatten that curve of trying to relieve the strain and stress on our health system by social distancing taking all these other measures really extreme important measures that are being implemented. Today what happens behind bars is going to drive that epidemic curve in exactly the opposite direction of what we're working towards and so they will quickly become reservoirs and they probably are already but certainly as we make gains in the rest of the community. These places will become critical reservoirs for infection. They're going to continue to cycle infection. Out of these places in and out as staff go in and out and to some extent that people who are held there. But you know there's many more people coming and going every day who are staff members than there are arriving as newly-arrived People on a prisoner in jail so these places as reservoirs of infection as congress at settings where the spread of the infection cannot really be controlled. Stand to dramatically escalate the epidemic curve that. We're working so hard to bring down homer you mentioned crucially that prisons and jails are probably already at least in New York City becoming reservoirs of corona virus. That leads.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"What's the scene like at? Ucsf at your hospital right now. Is it you know. I'm sure you're preparing like crazy things to to get out of hand. Where are things right now in that process I mean actually? We're still on the sort of preparing and waiting the waiting period rather than the storm that we worry is coming. So you know the hospital has enacted our disaster plans in terms of canceling elective procedures. So if you're supposed to get a hip or a knee replacement we have Canceled those procedures things like that to create openings for patients in case other patients get sick. It turns out a lot of the people who are in. The hospital are here for somewhat routine elective procedures and so by stopping those procedures. You open up a lot of space within the hospital So actually our senses are a little bit down right now here at UCSF. At least as of last night we only had two patients in the intensive care unit with Cova head and none at either of our outlying hospitals. So that's great news and we hope it will continue like that but we worry that it will be getting busier we are up staffing respiratory urgent care clinics up staffing our emergency room and working with across departments. Top staff are intensive care units To be ready I understand that at your hospital. Then you're postponing surgery. That's technically elective. Should patients proactively. Let's say they're not in San Francisco where their hospitals are yet doing. This suspension on their own should patients themselves. Be Trying to judge G if this is elective surgery in the sense that I don't need it right away. I should delay it partly public service of Free. Apostol beds or partly because they don't WanNa be in hospitals because that's where people are. I think that's reasonable. Frankly I think most hospitals are going to be moving this way. So it's more question whether you're going to postpone your procedure before they start postponing procedures or whether they'll reach out to you and what about things that the hospitals are short on? Are there things where? Ucsf has said publicly. You know like we need more ventilators or we have. We don't have sufficient protective gear. Or are you guys? Because you're at the front end of this and you're also a first class hospital. Are you pretty well prepared in those regards? I would say both of those things we are well prepared and we are worried about shortages so we currently have enough protective gear. But there is concern that we have you know a few weeks worth of protective gear on hand and so another public health thing that people can do is not do things like Horde and ninety five masks at home. You don't need those people were intimating people with Cova. Need this you're doing senior administrative work this moment and so. I'm wondering what tone like in the meetings I mean are people managing to sound as calm cool and collected as they sound all the time I mean I know. Doctors are all one of the things you train people in his to stay calm in situations where normal people would be freaking out. Is that sort of how it's operating in the meetings are. The people exaggerating their calmness. In order to seem calmer or is it sort of business as usual in some sense. It's not business as usual in the sense that people are really working together in a way that I think is actually really admirable. So you know. Ucsf is a big sprawling place with a bureaucracy. Like any big sprawling institution. And I've been really impressed with how things that previously would have taken a year to roll out or years to roll out rolling out in days because people are really working together. So for example telemedicine we had you know a very small percentage of our outpatient visits. Were being done by video visit and then a week and a half ago when we had our first sort of disaster planning full day retreat. It was decided that telemedicine should convert like fifty percent of our ambulatory visits in a matter of days and now we're converting almost one hundred percent of our visits to video visits and that has happened. That kind of huge change in a complex bureaucracy is usually really hard to maneuver and so I've been super impressed with how people are coming together across the organization to make these things happen. So every day now within my residency we have a daily planning huddle where we meet for thirty minutes and kind of plan out what needs to change acts and then in a hospital level those are happening and then we have a special workforce one where we think about. How are we going to deploy nurses? What do we do with people who are on home furlough? How can we help them be useful and help while they're in quarantine so the amount of cross pollination between human resources and nursing and the physicians and the administration has really been amazing so I wouldn't say that it has been business as usual? I would say it's been better than usual and I think well everyone is stressed. People really working together in a really positive way. That's actually extremely heartening. And is exactly what you know you fantasize life is like inside of a big hospital and when everyone's preparing for prices but I I know that in other areas of life our fantasies of the way in planning is supposed to go doesn't always bear itself out so it's nice to hear that that's actually happening. Can I ask just a broader question for those of us who are not in San Francisco? Which is most of us right now. San Francisco is presumably a harbinger of what is going to be like for us. So what's it like when you get up and come to work every day given the the shelter in place order? How many cars are on the road? I mean I know there are lots of people who are exempted from the order. People like you healthcare workers but also the people who are doing food service work and I notice even the biotech workers are exempt under the presumably are people on the streets so there are still people on the streets. I mean people are trying to work from home so eve. I'm here at the hospital today and I was in clinic yesterday but the day before I did work from home which I would usually never do so I do think even amongst the people who are exempted people are trying to kind of honor the idea of self shelter in place when they can but when you go on the street you do still see some people. I mean. It's a city right. So the restaurants still have takeout. You'll see people walk up to the door to get it. People love exercise in San Francisco. And you are still allowed to go out and exercise as long as you keep six feet between you and others and Golden Gate. Park was still filled with people running and biking yesterday so it doesn't actually feel like a desolate wasteland. It feels like a quiet day in the city when there's sort of fewer people a little bit like Boston feels in the summertime when all of the college kids leave speaking of kids. Your kids are not college but what what are you telling your kids. And how are they? Are they relating to at all? I mean they're not usual kids. They have to physician parents. But nevertheless I'm curious to go so my kids are little therefore six eight and we have been pretty consistent in the messaging that we're doing all of these things to keep old people safe. We really don't want them to worry about themselves. Because frankly kids do great in this which is a parent. I find really reassuring and I don't want them worrying about me going to the hospital every day. Yeah that's good. I by the way I heard the I heard this of the background. And you know ordinarily when we were doing a podcast we. We stop we record. We don't hear those kinds of sounds but the truth is that that's the actual world where you are in the hospital and those are real sirens and I think it's part of the part of the reality of of the moment. I just WANNA conclude river because I want to be respectful of your time and I want you to go back to actually saving people. What is there that you think people in the medical profession understanding no right? Now that is not getting communicated to the general public and I asked all the questions that I could think of the immediate things that you know that the rest of us don't know but I'm wondering. Is there something else that I should be asking you that I'm not? I mean I think the two things are. I would really like to see people taking this more seriously. I was pretty distressed by seeing pictures of like spring breakers Daytona Beach. If we don't all take this seriously this is going to last much longer. And so my hope is that even if your city has not formally placed you in shelter in place that people will take this seriously. And we'll start self-isolating Rebecca. I just want to thank you for what you're doing now in this effort and for spending time with us and for what you're doing every day even when there's no pandemic in the offing and wish you and your family on your and your residents and staff very well in the challenging time to come. Thanks so much. It was nice talking to you. I found that a tremendously useful conversation. Dr Berman really told us what we should and shouldn't be worried about and one of the things that I realized. Is that a lot of the information that circulating out there? About what symptoms? You should or shouldn't be concerned about is actually inaccurate. Not Up to date and non statistically sound. I also realized that there are many many people who might be sick and even have grown who nevertheless probably shouldn't go to the hospital if they're not too sick and that I think is a very important takeaway. I had not taken on board myself and I think is very valuable for public health purposes. We're GONNA continue covering corona with new and special episodes to keep you up to date on the most important issues behind. The story is associated with Corona. In the meantime. If you're at home as you probably should be be well be safe. Take care of yourself and others. Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia gene caught with studio recording by Joseph Friedman and mastering by Jason Gabrielle. And Martine Gonzalez showrunner is Sophie Makita. Our theme music is composed by Louis Garum special. Thanks to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm Dodwell Jacob. Weisberg and meal Obam. I'm Noah Feldman. I also write a column for Bloomberg opinion. Would you can find at Bloomberg Dot com backlash felt to discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts? Go TO BLOOMBERG DOT COM slash podcast. You can follow me on twitter. At Noah are felt.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"All around but the biggest changes that there's less meat and more plants and I think that in ten years they'll be less meat still in more plants still and I think in twenty years the same. I think that the world will follow. You won't just be your movement every time following. I'm not setting trends. I'm following transfer. I'm seeing trends. I don't this is not me I mean. Of course there's there's a give and take right there's a boomerang effect or whatever but I think I'm representing what's happening. I speak to crowds all the time and I always ask who. Here's eating less meat than they were ten years ago. And there's a few cantankerous people who wanNA prove their independence who don't raise their hand but everybody raises their hands. Everybody's eating less meat than they were ten years ago And that's true in every audience. I go more than ninety percent of people raise their hands and I. I don't know so I'm asking you because you might are. They're bigger picture. Statistics Supreme Matter. Is that people who are buying your books coming to listen to. You think this is very much of a speaking to preaching to the choir aspect of this for sure but you know the fact that and and it's a whole separate conversation but the fact that Burger King is selling a Vegan Burger. I think I think speaks to that too. I think people are looking for ways around eating meat. The fact that they are readily changing to a different form of junk food as in the impossible burger is maybe a good thing and maybe not. It's very complicated for them. But good for the world one of our no central goals but not one or the other but they could be lawful and and be good all around in a way. It's just that no one's about their marketing lawful in that way now they go. There's Your Business Opportunity. I might be working on it except I'm not so thank you very much. There was fun. The conversation I had with mark was really eye opening at least for me and thinking about the changes in how we interact with the whole topic of food. I think we're GONNA have a lot more opportunity to reflect on that in the days and weeks ahead. I'm certainly looking at what's in my refrigerator very differently than I was before. The Corona Virus. Not only. Is there a lot more of it? I had to be really mindful about choosing what was going to go in there but could be frozen but could be preserved. What would be good how I get fresh vegetables and we also have to think much more seriously than usual about the supply chain of how food gets onto our tables after all in a world. Where we're all social distancing. Real human beings have to be out there doing their jobs full-time and taking on the corona risk just in order to get food continuing to come to us. The centrality and importance of food workers has never been clearer in my lifetime. If you're at home practicing social distancing the way most of us are advised to do good luck with it. I hope you're managing. I hope the food on your table is tasty. If you're out there doing your job trying to enable the rest of us to stay home and stay safe please accept my. Thanks and all of our appreciation. Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia gene with studio recording by Joseph Redman and mastering by Jason Gambro and Martine. Gonzalez are show. Runner is so few mckibben. Our theme music is composed by Luis. Aguirre special thanks to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm God well Jacob Weisberg and me Alot Bell. I'm Noah Feldman. I also write a column for Bloomberg opinion. Would you can find at Bloomberg. Dot Com backslash felt to discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts. Go TO BLOOMBERG DOT COM backslash Papa. John's you can follow me on twitter. At Noah are felt.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"There could be good public health. Reasons for justifying delays in some primaries. But that may not matter all that much especially if the next few primaries end up leaving one of the democratic challengers way ahead of the other so maybe delaying those primaries isn't the end of the world but the big worry of course is the presidential election nothing in the constitution as I read it would allow authorizer even contemplate delaying presidential election but individual states have a lot of discretion in how they could enable that election to happen states could put in place mail in voting. They could experiment with various online methods provided those protected from Russian hacking efforts. But I think it might not be too soon to sort of put a marker down and say no. The president of the United States or Congress cannot delay a presidential election. I think very little doubt that the press the United States cannot do it on his own that would raise very serious constitutionally shoes these any worry that Congress would do it right now given given you have a Democrat and Democratic House. Here's the worry of the worry is the state's only to the extent that the president directed to the states to do it to the extent that we've seen to my sense of shocking acquiescence in the presence demands by a lot of Republican leadership in this country. I don't think it's beyond the Pale. I hope it is beyond the Pale. The President I'd states basically directed governors. I don't I've that a recent count. of governor is that are relevant but if a sisal number of states responded to that by saying we are not going to hold elections because of this disaster which inflicting us and. I'm sure we could find instances of fires tornadoes hurricanes maybe even in the past where elections were delayed not by order the press the United States. Not by order of a local government. Official or state government official. I'm hoping that doesn't happen. But at the very least I can say with this president And possible I can. Well see him making such a request and then the question will be whether or not Those Republican governors view themselves as independent actors or not as usual Richard talking to you not only teaches me a huge amount but it enables me to think through the structure and see the problems coming down the road. I think of you as the constitutional lawyers constitutional lawyer. You know. You're the person as you know whom I always come to it. Sometimes it's two in the morning to say I'm trying to figure out this constitutional issue am I right am I wrong. How should I be thinking about it? And you've just been super super helpful On all these issues as we've been going through the corner situation and in this conversation as well thank you very very much. As I talked to Richard I gradually found myself getting more and more nervous about the possible. Civil liberties consequences of corona virus. Pandemic is not our primary worry right now. Our primary worry staying safe and in a moment of trying to stay safe. We do tend as Richard said to defer to the government's decisions but as this pandemic continues. We should keep a close eye on. How our civil liberties do and of being limited and constrained by the government because those liberties are crucial to our human wellbeing. They may not be as important as not being sick. But in the long run they set the conditions for a healthy and free society. Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries our producer Lydia gene caught with studio recording by Joseph Redman and mastering by Jason Gambro and Martine. Gonzalez are show. Runner is Sophie mckibben. Our theme music is composed by Louis. Garra special thanks to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm Guide. Well Jacob Weisberg and MIA labelle. I'm Noah Feldman I also write a column for Bloomberg opinion which you can find at Bloomberg Dot Com backslash felt to discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts. Go TO BLOOMBERG DOT COM back slash podcast. You can follow me on twitter. At Noah are feldman this is deep background..
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"From Pushkin Industries. This is deep background. The show where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. I'm Noah Feldman were deep into corona virus world. Right now. It's the only new story at that. Anyone seems to be interested in and it's also obsessing of US myself included on a minute to minute basis. We spent a lot of time so far on the show focusing on medical aspects of the crisis. And that's I think entirely appropriate given where we are in the cycle but it's also not too soon. I think to start talking about the economic consequences of what's happening and what's likely to happen. And that's particularly pressing because Congress and the president have agreed on a relief plan to address corona virus. One that is intended to take a stab at slowing down. The harms economically. That people might be facing in real time and also perhaps at softening the blow a recession. That seems to be headed our way in order to make some sense of what economists think about the set of problems and how they can be solved. I knew I wanted to talk to Professor Stephanie. Stunt Ceva of the Harvard Economics Department Fresher Sunday is what economists call? Technically a hotshot She's extraordinary scholar. Tenured pretty much right away upon joining the Harvard University Faculty on the French Council of Economic Advisors. She's French as you'll hear in a moment from her accent and all around one of the most brilliant young economists in the United States by common consensus also. Someone who's done work in the long run on the consequences and effects of major government interventions in the real world of economic reality. Stephanie thank you so much for agreeing to speak to me as we watch. Congress passing bipartisan legislation for relief in the context of the corona virus. I knew right away that you are the person I wanted to talk to to try to understand how this is gonNA work. And if it's going to work. Because a lot of economists study macroeconomics and the big picture a lot study microeconomics and the Individual Decision. But you're one of the people who does what everyone else in the world. Things economists do which is say the relationship between the micro and the macro. So I'm really. I'm really thrilled that you're willing to do this. And I want to start by just asking. How is this economic crisis or shock? Different from the kinds of shocks that we're used to seeing. Yeah thank you for having me on the on the show and In this case I to face it. It's obviously a a huge human tragedy. That's unfolding right now and Many people are in a very precarious situation So that's that's already a very very different situation but you know an ECON language. It's both a supply shock and a demand side jog at the same time. So this is a very a very peculiar situation Typically we have mostly one or the other and they're not as extremely urgent as you go up and dynamic unfolding so it's not going to be a A normal situation and what follows won't be a normal recession so ECON text books. Don't really cover how to deal with the fallout from a global pan-demic speaking of the ECON- Textbooks. When you say that it's both supply shock and a demand shock. Do you mean that. I'll try to be the good freshman. Do you mean that the ordinary people are not demanding goods and services the way they usually would cause they're staying home and businesses aren't in a position to deliver those goods and services because they're not operating. That's exactly right. So they're disruptions at every level of production and at every level of consumption and work Because of because of the social distancing that's necessary in order to limit the spread of the virus. You know people have to in a sense. Stay home and limit. The amount of economic activity engage. Which means we don't have the usual demand that we're used to At the same time the whole work and supply chain is disrupted as well as workers cannot or should not be going to work so in a sense. It's this weird situation where we have to accept you know economic losses in the in the short-run because they will actually protect health so the decline in activity right now is not just It's not just Unavoidable it's also desired. You know we cannot just self quarantine to prevent the virus from spreading and less activity to clients So the key right now is really not a focus on the economic costs which makes this unusual but also really to try to basically not tried to re stimulate the economy but try to accept the fact that we need to shut down for a little while so the accepting of the shutting down is itself a completely fascinating phenomenon and a little later in the conversation. I WANNA come back to the question of how we know. How much is a good amount of shutting down to do but before we get there? I just WanNa hear a little bit about the tools that economists do have for other situations and how they might be borrowed into this situation. What are the? What are the tools that you think of as having in the near economists toolkit So in an economist tool kits. There's there's a lot of tools there's all sorts of taxes and transfers in both directions so either tax cuts tax increases increase in transfers decrease in transfers There is monetary policy that can affect supply of credits or the interest rate. There are regulations that can shape how people will act or how businesses will act on a day to day basis And so all of these are currently you know to some extent useful and to some extent be applied. So if we start phone the immediate situation The key is basically some direct intervention Of Government on the public health site so a bit of a whatever it takes approach to increase you know hospital capacity personnel production of the necessary equipment. Like respirators ventilators So this requires some sort of direct intervention and in a sense industrial policy. Perhaps that we're not that we haven't been used to for quite a while It will require direct intervention and lots of funding for developing vaccines or antivirals. And so it's really. It's really a whole a whole new world here in terms of what what is needed for that and in that sense. It's not at all the time to worry about garments costs about debt and deficits because unless we act now the worst they will get later If you want to like if you think about household or family you know it's exactly for such bad times than health emergencies that we save money. Typically so for the government. This is why we save money. It's for for these emergency situations now. and then we have other tools Which are On the on the ensuring the supply of essential services side You know there's there's some things that still need to be done for people to have food and clean water and sanitation so those still need to work and for those you know. Derek regulation of how it should look in a workplace. What amount of distances safe? What central business they should keep doing. those are also tools that can be applied here and one thing that we noticed the past as which is again very unusual. Is that perhaps? The price mechanism doesn't work very well. You saw perhaps the Amazon sanitizer prices That's up and so perhaps some amount of rationing imposing that there's a limit on what you can buy at one so that everybody gets some basic supply is also another another instrument that the government may want to apply and then the final is perhaps more standard. It's what you looted to initially when we have a perhaps more standard recession which would be to support you know the demand on both a household side and maintain businesses alive while this big shock passes Because you know the health stroke is not the only shock that is a threat here it is the most immediate but letting people slide into poverty into unemployment can be disastrous and very detrimental and carry huge human toll that we also want to avoid so we want to also flood into recession curve in a sense not just not just the pandemic curve so there's a range of tools and all of these weekend that we can apply so let's take it in two parts. Let's start with what you might call you you call them old fashioned interventions and I think of us as autocratic interventions where the government says you know company you must now devote yourself to producing this particular vaccine or you know you factory. You must make these medical masks industrial policy of the old fashioned Top.
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"And usually The sort of the the big evolutionary change as it were which is the assortment of the segments of our neigh- have already happened. Most of these viruses come from other populations other animals and so therefore usually have not developed strategies to evade the immune system and remain or become chronic in humans in terms of new epidemics. It was an exception with HIV But aside from that most of these viruses usually once you get immunity to it you get immunity to it and you don't get reinfected. We think that that's the case given what's happened. Otherwise you'd you know Wuhan would still be flaring So based on all the information that we have if it's true information we have a center of the epidemic where there was a wave of debts. Unfortunately but then it stops brewing. It's not flaring still so to some extent The best information that we have so far is that the virus of course it will mutate but that immunity does develop to it and that immunity is protective That's very good news for future. Vaccines Vaccines Not tomorrow. But that's very good news for a future vaccine because of course you need immunity. Is there anything that you think? We'RE MISSING FROM THE PUBLIC DISCOURSE AROUND KOGI. Nineteen right now. One thing that's missing. Is You know. Look getting a vaccine is will take a long time because vaccines are complicated to make their complicated attest they have to be tested on populations reproduced at a very high standard. It what's missing is why and and why not For the people who are actually falling sick Why or why not? We don't have Either antibodies are or biological or small molecules that are directed against the Viral enzymes. We know the genomes have been sequenced. We know what the what the vulnerabilities are. And I know that several facilities that are screening for Small molecules as well as biologics. That will help. These are not vaccines right. So these are injected. Biologics that will enact inactivate the virus so An update from The CDC on that process those kinds of Ideas from the nation's highest authority in terms of the management of illness would be a helpful thing to have because talking empty about a vaccine which could really be months. Away is not going to help right now. If we could say the to you that you know if you get really really sick Here's where we are in terms of medicine development for this and there's no better country in the world I think than the United States in developing medicines Then I think there'd be less uncertainty in a panic around What's happening next in terms of medical development against the virus? Last question for you said what are you telling your kids. Well so I mean we've been following every day what the CDC has been recommending. I mean thankfully as I said. Children are not the worst affected We have not been Doing anything except saying To them dry too in the in New York City where now there are several cases. We've been telling them try to avoid public places which are not You know where. There's not you're not. It's not necessary to go a wash. Your hands frequently as frequently as possible. And if you know someone who's sick or Obviously if you have symptoms yourself let us know at the earliest. I mean nothing more and nothing less than that. I also led with my kids with the. Don't worry you're gonNA find kids. Don't seem to be getting this. And that. An amazingly calming effect on them. So I appreciate that part of the advice as well as the rest of it. Thank you so much for a really calm and rational account of ongoing breaking story that continues to have scary parts but that as you say can ultimately be managed by getting to the absolute truths that are out there and then using logic and reason and risk benefit analysis to try to get us to a manageable outcome and perhaps even to some potential treatments for for the worst affected. Thank you very much for your time. I thank you so much. We'll be back with this week's playback in just a moment if you're listening to our show you're someone who cares about the biggest issues shaping society. Today there's another podcast. We think you should check out intelligence squared. Us America's leading debate series. They bring together. Influential thinkers like Deepak. Chopra Arianna Huffington David Miller band and even yours truly. I admit debating Alan Dershowitz to evidence based debates on contentious topics like free trade. Healthcare reform and spirituality. It's not about sound bites or pundits. It's more a thoughtful. Spirited competition of ideas find intelligence squared. Us wherever you get your podcasts. Now for our playback I wanNA tell you go search. I WanNa tell you cavenaugh you have released a whirlwind and you will pay the price that's democratic. Senator Charles Schumer last week speaking a slightly unhinged tone if you ask me in front of the Supreme Court at an abortion rights rally while an oral argument was going on about an important abortion rights case since then Schumer received intense criticism from president trump. But maybe more significantly from Chief Justice John Roberts and a number of Republican senators and he apologized kind of saying. I shouldn't have used the words I did. Here's why this whole moment in. The News is actually a pretty big deal ever since Donald Trump became president and in fact even before that when he was running for office. Donald Trump has made the federal judiciary one of his central targets. He has a specific goal in mind to undercut and undermine public trust in the judiciary and he has a very trumpian way of doing it. He singles out individual judges often by name. He says that they're illegitimate. He points to appointed them and says that that will determine what they're going to do when they're in office and ultimately he hints that he would like to be able to push them around which Schumer was doing was borrowing a page from the Trumpian rhetoric. A threat each time someone outside the trump administration does that it tends to suggest. The trump's approach is perfectly fine. It tends not only to further undercut the judiciary. It also tends to suggest that we should all move to a world where it's completely normal and fine to threaten and attack judges and there's one more problem with what. Schumer's doing it's pretty much guaranteed to backfire in the case that was going on in the Supreme Court when Schumer was outside making his threats the primary issue before the justices was whether the court would follow its precedent that would actually lead to the striking down of Louisiana anti-abortion law or whether the justices would deviate from a relatively recently created president and go a different way in that debate. Chief Justice John Roberts is the absolutely all important swing vote. He in fact did not vote for the decision on which the president would be based in this case so we know that he didn't agree with that case but what he was thinking about and this was very clear in. The oral argument was precisely whether to follow that precedent. Even if you didn't like it even though that would send the public message that the court was not following president. There's probably no more pressing issue in front of the Supreme Court right at this juncture than how much precedent should matter. Roberts is the swing vote by attacking other justices. Schumer guaranteed that Roberts would have to come out against him and in the process of doing so roberts would find that he did not want to signal to the world that he was listening to Schumer Schumer very possibly cost liberals. Roberts's is own vote. In this case in other words Schumer was really playing with fire. His words at the margin might be a decisive factor in pushing John Roberts to the conservative side in a case where his comments in oral arguments just he was at least toying with the possibility of sticking with the liberals on a precedent theory. We don't know how this case will come out and we don't know how the other important cases involving present will come out. We do know that in this moment John Roberts must be thinking about nothing but the question of president all day every day in that environment it is remarkably unwise for the Senate minority leader to contribute to an environment where Democrats are threatening the courts in just the way donald trump. It's the correct narrative for Democrats and indeed for anyone who wants to protect the independence of the judiciary and precedent and value the rule of law. Is that the court should be allowed to do their job and should be treated respectfully in the process. Schumer wasn't just wrong. On the merits it was dangerously wrong in the real world. Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is lydia. Jean Cot was studio recording by Joseph Redman and mastering by Jason Gabrielle. And Jason Rostenkowski are showrunner. Is Sophie mckibben? Our theme music is composed by Louis. Garra special thanks to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm Guide while Jacob Weisberg and MIA labelle. I'm Noah Feldman I also write a column for Bloomberg opinion which you can find at Bloomberg dot com backslash feldman to discover Bloomberg's originals slate of podcasts. Go TO BLOOMBERG DOT COM backslash podcasts. You can follow me on. Twitter Noah heartfelt. This is deep background..
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"Over the results you know. I think there are lots of downstream consequences. That will understand better when we see them. But those are some of my concerns mark. I'm really grateful to you for speaking so clearly. And so calmly about something that as you say doesn't really feel real yet and therefore is really susceptible to our powerful seemed to deny but you know as we all know. Denying something doesn't mean it's not going to happen so I think we all do need to change our mindset and start being a little more realistic about What the probabilities are as you've as you've laid them out so I just want to really thank you for taking the time to clarify this for a little bit about how you reach these conclusions. Getting behind the story can also help us. I think get to terms with the reality so really thank you very very much for what you're doing. Thank you for having me Having spoken to mark I still having trouble with my sense of unreality. I just don't want to believe what he's telling us. About the forty to seventy percent number of adults around the world who could end up infected with the corona virus and yet at the same time. I know I am talking to mark lipstick. I'm talking to a calm. Reasonable extremely brilliant epidemiologist. Who's made a career of studying the questions that he's working on now if he's not the expert to be believed there no expert to be believed so. I think what I'm going to be trying to do going forward and maybe you'll choose. Do the same this to try to update my understanding of where we are and where we're going on the basis of his data. When I do that I admit it makes me afraid. Mark also said very calmly that this is not an existential threat or at least is not an existential threat to society as a whole so perhaps we can take a deep breath and perhaps take some small solace in that even as we prepare ourselves for what could be a long and very difficult. Ride deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia gene caught with studio recording by Joseph Redman and mastering by Jason Gambro and Jason Rostowski are showrunner Sophie mckibben. A theme music is composed by Louis. Gara- special thanks to the push brass now from glad. Well Jacob Weisberg and Mierlo Bell. I'm Noah Feldman you can follow me on twitter. At Noah are Felton. This is deep background..
"noah feldman" Discussed on Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"The name of Alicia Fox. Latest novel is ten minutes. Thirty eight seconds in this strange world. We'll be back with this week's playback in just a moment if you're listening to our show you're probably someone who cares about the biggest issues shaping society. Today there's another podcast. We think you should check out intelligence squared. Us America's leading debate series. They bring together. Influential thinkers like Deepak. Chopra Arianna Huffington David Miller band and even yours truly. I admit debating Alan Dershowitz to evidence based debates on contentious topics like free trade. Healthcare reform and spirituality. It's not about sound bites or pundits. It's more a thoughtful. Spirited competition of ideas find intelligence squared. Us wherever you get your now for our playback. John Dunning Miriam Haley Jessica meal Annabella Shara Charlie Wealth Lauren. Young Megan has Jones losing or bone. Eight women who have changed the course of history in the fight against sexual violence. That's Manhattan District Attorney. Cyrus Vance Junior. His office prosecuted the case against Harvey Weinstein. Speaking at a press conference right after the verdict was announced. If you heard that verdict briefly you might have been a little bit confused because it sounds like it was a split verdict on the one hand. Weinstein was convicted of two charges of rape and those were the primary charges against him yet. It's also true. Did Winston was acquitted on three other charges including two of the most serious charges against him charges that he was the sexual predator. After all you might say to yourself Weinstein obviously was a sexual predator. So maybe this isn't really that much of a win for the prosecutors or for the metoo movement will the honest truth is if you go behind the scenes of this case and look at the prosecutor strategy. You'll see that it was a win for the prosecutors. Even though Weinstein was cleared of two of the most serious charges. And here's why ordinarily in a criminal case we do not allow evidence to be introduced of any bad acts that the defendant committed outside of the context of the specific charges brought against him. And there's a reason for that. We don't WANT TO RAISE TO CONVICT PEOPLE. Because they think they're just lousy or because we think they're bad on general principles or because they think that they are guilty of some other conduct other than conduct with which they are literally being charged. But there are exceptions. One is if the prosecutors can introduce a pattern of prior conduct they can get other bad acted mid that happened actually in the Weinstein trial and it's one of the reasons that several other witnesses three whose names have not been made public were introduced in order to testify to other bad acts of Weinstein's but another way for prosecutors to introduce prior evidence of bad action in a criminal trial in the New York state system is to charge the defendant with being a sexual Predator and that charge is what allowed the prosecution to introduce testimony of the actress. Annabella shoora who testified that more than twenty five years ago Harvey Weinstein raped her now on the surface the fact that Weinstein was not convicted of being a sexual Predator might make you think that the jury didn't believe shoora dots not necessarily the case. It's entirely possible that the jury believed her thought. There wasn't beyond a reasonable doubt evidence of that charge and that as a consequence it strengthen their judgment that Weinstein was in fact guilty of the basic rapes with which he was charged. That's especially probable because those rapes involved situations in which it's often very difficult for prosecutors to get convictions namely no physical evidence and an ongoing professional social and even sexual relationship between the perpetrator and the victims after the crimes alleged at least according to Weinstein's lawyers. Furthermore to the extent of the jury may actually have been engaged in an internal compromise the fact that they were more serious charges that it could choose not to find. Weinstein guilty of May have actually driven the jury in the direction of finding Weinstein guilty on the underlying charges of rape. Of course we don't like to think the jury is our horse-trading behind the scenes. But we understand that in reality. They sometimes are. So that's another reason to think that the prosecutor's decision to introduce the charge against Weinstein of being a sexual Predator actually contributed to his eventual conviction on the underlying rape charges notwithstanding his acquittal on the sexual predation charges the upshot here is that the legal system as a lot of other complicated systems in the world. Sometimes to understand. What's really going on. You GotTa get behind. The scenes. Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Jean Cot with studio recording by Joseph Redman and mastering by Jason Gambro and Jason Rostowski are showrunner Sophie mckibben. Our theme music is composed by Louis. Garra special thanks to the Pushkin brass now from God. Well Jacob Weisberg and Mierlo Bell. I'm Noah Feldman you can follow me on twitter. At Noah are Felton. This is deep background..
"noah feldman" Discussed on Revisionist History
"This spring but I had to stop up because something has just come to my attention. A law review article. Well a law review notion. I guess an anonymous note in the Harvard Harvard Law Review published about a month ago entitled pack the Union a proposal to admit new states for the purpose of ensuring during equal representation. It's bananas now. Some of you may remember. I started off season. Three with an episode called. Divide divide and conquer in which a constitutional law professor named Michael Poulsen convince me the Texas has the right to break into five states. It wants to for a whole complicated set of reasons including the fact that the authors of the US Constitution used a crucial semicolon emme colon. Here's a little clip of me and Michael Paulsen from the end of that episode. Imagine a governor of Texas read Your Review Article and said let's funny enough premise. At says okay I want to. I want to trigger. Okay so walk me through. How triggering in my work in the real world well imagining a real world where people take law review article seriously? It's it's a good. It's a better real world. It all we know is. Congress has granted it's consent for the sovereign state of Texas to do what it needs to do but the significant fact here here is that given a congress has already granted its permission The all the has to happen is for Texas to get its act together. It's up to Texas. It's up to Texas a love that despite our efforts over I believe Texas still remains only one st but that hasn't deterred the anonymous author of the Harvard Law Review Node on the contrary the idea concerns Washington. DC A non-state territory. Completely under the administrative understood control of Congress would if Congress would shrink the district of Columbia itself to just a few federal buildings and then divide the rest of the district tricked into one hundred twenty seven states at the idea. A hundred and twenty seven new states one for each neighborhood. Each neighborhood would then get two senators and the partisan deadlock in the Senate would be over Tokyo's bananas but I Love Bananas. Idea is particularly this. One and Pushkin Industries has the perfect venue for this kind of bananas discussion. A new podcast called deep background around with Noah Feldman a professor at Harvard law school in D. Background Noah has some fascinating conversations with a wide range of of experts to get to the stories behind the stories. The show has episodes about everything from black holes to Mohammed bin Salman to the agony of testifying find before Congress which recently did at the impeachment hearings for Donald Trump. If you watch those so no is the kind of guy who would know all about that. Law Review note note so I called him up the whole thing concerns Washington. DC A non-state territory overseen by Congress. We started talking about at this genius idea of doubling the number of US senators and then of course we ended up somewhere completely different. I hope you enjoy our conversation and will subscribe to deep background. So you'll never miss another one new episodes drop every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts.
Deep Background with Noah Feldman
"I want you to hear another show from Pushkin that I think you'll like it's called deep background and it's hosted by Harvard Law. Professor Noah Feldman Minute Noah's been interviewing top. Scientists thinkers and authors to understand the stories behind the news. The episode. You're about to hear is a special one. Because because Noah himself was the newsmaker in the hot seat testifying before Congress. I'll let him pick up the story on deep background. This is a show about understanding the news. And if you like you're about to hear I hope you'll subscribe from Pushkin Industries. This is deep background. The show where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. I'm Noah Feldman joining us for the first time. Welcome if you've missed any of our earlier episodes which used it'd be behind a paywall. You can now get them for free exactly where you found this one a bit about me. I teach constitutional law at Harvard. I love oh well tailored suit and I had a pretty eventful winter break swear or affirm under penalty perjury and the testimony. You're about to give. It is true and correct to the best of your knowledge information and belief to help you got this past December. I was an expert witness called by the Democrats to testify at the impeachment inquiry and the House of Representatives into president. Donald Trump. To be honest with you it was extremely nerve wracking. My job is to study and to teach the constitution solution from its origins until the present. I'm here today to describe three things. Why the framers of our Constitution included a provision for the impeachment agent of the president? What that provision providing for impeachment for high crimes and misdemeanors means and last how it applies to the question before for you and for the American people whether president trump has committed impeachable offenses under the constitution? The other expert witnesses called by the Democrats were Pamela Carlin. A law professor at Stanford when President Trump invited indeed demanded foreign involvement in our upcoming election. He struck at the very heart of what makes makes this a republic to which we pledge allegiance and Michael Gerhardt a law professor at the University of North Carolina Chapel. If what we're talking about is not impeachable the nothing impeachable. I recently got the chance to talk to Michael Gerhardt about that day and all that has happened since I was was unfortunately recovering from a slight cold Michael. Thank you so much for joining me. We've spoken on the phone but we actually haven't seen each other. Since December December four th when we both had the opportunity and maybe dubious honor of testifying at the House. Judiciary Committee's hearing on impeachment impeachment. How you been doing since then it's It's been busy Teaching classes and also trying to be part of the national conversation on a very important subject what I would love for us to do in. This conversation is open up for listeners. Some of the the back story in the back scenes of what we experienced that day. How we prepare for it and also sort of bigger picture consequences Of what's been going on. So maybe the way to start is. I had never done this before before so it was a surprise to me but you had done this before. Twenty years previously When they were a group of professors I think twenty one in total? Who testified about Bill Clinton's impeachment to the House Judiciary Committee and not only were you one of them but you are also the only one who is jointly put forward by the Republicans and the Democrats so take us back if you will twenty years and tell us how that happened you know? Nowadays it's almost inconceivable to imagine there being somebody who is acceptable to both sides on twenty years seems longtime ago. It's GonNa the seem even longer when we Put together what was happening back then. It'll seem completely alien to us. So I had spent a fair bit of my academic career studying and writing about impeachment also testifying and consulting with members of Congress that was all known by the time we got to nineteen ninety eight and there was a special moment for me in one thousand nine hundred eight when Jim Leach Republican David Skaggs Democrat called me up on the phone said. Would you come talk to us in Washington generally if members of Congress want to talk to me about something I think. That's a great honor and I went and they said to me. Well what would like you to do after you talk to us right now. Go speak to the entire House of Representatives. The I didn't know that coming into that moment while And they had ring like they want you to speak to the house right. Then yes right then So I thought well wow this is going to be a good test with another another subject matter And so then we walked over to the House and I had to get special permission to walk onto the floor of the house and then behind closed doors with no staff. No press or anything. I then talked to the entire House of Representatives about impeachment spent about two hours doing it at no no cameras fresno nothing knows nothing just nothing is all. Is there a written record of your. Don't think there's a written record. I think it was also amazing. You had a confidential conversation with four hundred and thirty five people hard to say the biggest lecture of my life or one of the big lectures but it was a tried to designed more conversation and it was a very congenial collegial conversation at the end of a Charles candidate Republican. Bobby Scott a democrat. Who happened to be my representative came up to me and said well? If you ever have a hearing on this would you come and I said well sure I'd be honored honored and then that hearing to which you just alluded Happened a few weeks later where I was then. Brought in by both Republicans and Democrats to testify is one of the experts One of the many experts including Alan Dershowitz On the question of Whether or not President Clinton's alleged misconduct rose to the level of being an impeachable offense. And what did you say When I talked about was basically The law of impeachment. I try to kind of lay out the things we knew that that I thought were clear and then kind of talked about some things that were maybe unsettled and said here's what we know about them here. The arguments on both sides and and kind of walked everybody through that and then got questions but there was no personal attack was always very much. You know in this footnote. You said this but now today you're saying that Fair I can try to answer that. Do they actually give you a chance to to answer it. I'd say that has light of our experience. They asked a question and then they actually let you answer it. It's like you know as you said it. Sounds like the Middle Ages. That's right yeah so when we had our hearing there was is no chance to answer it or at least we were giving maybe a second and then that was about it but yes they would then give me a chance to answer it and they they appear to be listening and it was really more of a conversation Than Twenty years later it would be. It's sort of fascinating on many levels but one of the reasons it's so fascinating is that most people at the time identified the impeachment of Bill Clinton that moment as a high point in partisanship the most partisan moment that people can remember the in the United States in more than a century and I think that was actually a fair assessment in historical terms and now twenty years later. It sounds almost like a model of bipartisan and cordiality and collegiality even if they voted along along party lines let me ask you a question Michael so the reason you yourself in that extraordinary position in the Clinton impeachment is it you were and remain the leading expert law professor on the subject of impeachment your guide to the impeachment and processed book you know has come out and I think three additions now why in the world as a young law professor did you get interested in the impeachment as the topic. It was not a hot topic. You know in the late eighties when you must have started diving into it or the middle ladies and you start diving into it. Why did you choose the subject? Well it's a good question I grew up Jewish Alabama in the nineteen sixties. That that that comes with that. That's a big sentence. We're we're in Alabama a mobile on. Okay got it and so I was my entire childhood. aalto was sort of shaped and defined by the Civil Rights Movement at the tail end of that civil rights movement was of course Watergate so like many people of my generation I I watched Watergate. I was kind of thought it was incredible moment to see Congress sort of investigating the president and eventually the President resigned and that that that stuck with me. That was something that I felt. The civil rights movement and Watergate had in common a respect for the rules law. They had in common the idea that law could bring order to chaos and so that was very appealing to me. I had an interest in the law as a
Noah Feldman on impeachment
"The phone no thanks so much for joining us again compelling testimony by you and your fellow professors last week just give us your sense your take away of the testimony my takeaway is that we laid out a clear case for why the framers wanted impeachment to exist at all namely to deal with a situation where a president distorted the use of his office were ultimately purposes if you don't like reelection that we talked about what high crimes and misdemeanors really are that they are in essence he'd use of office and we suggested that if you believe the stuff you can watch it on TV and reading about it if you believe that the allegations against president trump are accurate then it would follow that impeachment would be appropriate do you feel like you were speaking into an empty vacuum that basically the only people who would hear you I would be people who agreed with you and everybody else you are going to convince I really hope not you know I think it may be that sometimes in places where people are obsessed with the impeachment they think they know all the details and they formed years already which is fine but in most of the country I think there's still a lot of people who are trying to figure out exactly what's going on who are busy people with jobs alive who haven't been obsessively focused on this until now and so with any luck with this provided was just a clear statement of why it's worthwhile to take it so seriously why it's appropriate to take up valuable time of the American people want on this issue and I think you know about my sense at least from the mail and social media contacts and get connections that I'm getting there are people who were glad to hear it laid out simply and quickly so no way yeah I think the consensus is that the house will likely vote for impeachment it will then go to the Senate and then go along party lines if a Republican senator the votes not to move forward with it is that senator saying that he or she does not believe that there were people fences despite what you're saying and some others are saying these really are impeachable offenses well that they're two things at the center could be saying one would be I think these things are in principle impeachable but I don't believe that the president did them and little hard to believe that someone would have that you've given how overwhelming evidence is but maybe somebody would think that maybe they'll say that and you know if that's the case or not you know I mean whether you believe the evidence or not is very much a question of individual credibility determination the other day they could be saying as you say is that they think it's fine for the present United States to go out and use the office of the presidency to try to get personal advantage in an election do investigations some of our country of his opponent and I would be really sad if any member of the Senate believe that that was not impeachable conduct because it's just so clear from what the framers set and it's also just even if you leave the farmers out of it just so obvious that that's the kind of conduct we can't tolerate a president because it distorts reelection and so I really hope that no senator wouldn't would vote not to impede and you know we'll talk with the president on that basis there's an interesting legal question here I and and your prefer your perfect to weigh in on this justice Roberts it would be the third justice to preside over an impeachment trial in the U. S. Senate if it gets there he is overseeing the Senate he is the first who has openly clashed with the president who is potentially going to be impeached we think he's going to do if this comes to pass this is Robert is someone who throughout his career has shown up very very deep commitment to protecting the legitimacy of the Supreme Court by making sure that it's not partisan now the court of course the ideological different people on the court after completes including Chief Justice Roberts there's a difference between being ideological which means you have values and ideas and affect you and being partisan which means you do what the political party to your silly it with wants you to do and I think he will bend over backwards to make sure that he is not part of that in anyway I think you will try very hard to be as objective as he can be I would add that his powers are somewhat limited most things the Chief Justice does an impeachment hearing could be overturned by a bare majority of the Senate on a vote so he makes a decision on say an evidence question the Senate could vote to override at any moment so one thing you could do is if there's anything really controversial he just turned to the senators and say okay you guys both on and I'm not even gonna make this decision and have you over will make and that would be one way for him to stay out of the cross hairs of a partisan fight that was Bloomberg pinion colonists Noah Feldman you can read more on this and other stories from Bloomberg opinion at Bloomberg dot com slash opinion and on the terminal by typing OPI and
Pelosi set to update impeachment inquiry status
"It comes a day after pelo see ask behind closed doors if the democratic caucus ease ready at that was in the room say the answer was a resounding yes that meeting came as Jerrold Nadler is Judiciary Committee held its first impeachment hearing the facts presented at the hearing today were overwhelming with Harvard law professor Noah Feldman among those saying the evidence points to presidential wrongdoing president trump has committed impeachable high crimes and misdemeanors but as Democrats charge toward a Christmas time impeachment vote to George Washington university's Jonathan Turley argues there Casey is too thin this is not how you impeach an American president and a Republican Debbie Lesko says Democrats need to give up stop this sham Sager may gunny at the White House
Legal scholar says Trump's actions are "abuse of his office"
"In Washington legal scholars made their case for impeachment of president trump Linda can Yanis covering the next phase of the house investigation the house Judiciary Committee has taken over armed with the house intelligence committees three hundred page report from its hearings and ready to determine if president trump's pattern of behavior warrants impeachment president trump welcomes foreign interference in the two thousand sixteen election he demanded and for the two thousand twenty election ranking Republican Doug Collins calls the impeachment process a sham it just don't like the guy the hearing called for constitutional scholars to the witness table one of them was professor Pamela Carlin was Stanford Law School who reflected on the founders of the constitution the very idea that a president might seek the aid of a foreign government in his reelection campaign would have horrified them professor Michael Gerhard with the university of North Carolina school of law told the committee that is exactly why impeachment was invented if what we're talking about is not impeachable than nothing is a peach Republican dog collar aides insisted the president broke no law in some way in saying you wait a lot lot with a lot of people listening did the founding fathers would have found president trump guilty is just simply malpractice Harvard Law School professor Noah Feldman strongly disagreed if we cannot impeach a president who abuses his office for personal advantage we no longer live in a democracy and he said the president's abuse of power cannot be allowed to go unchecked then you're sending a message to this president and to future presidents that it's no longer a problem if they abuse their power it's no longer a problem if they invite other countries to interfere in our elections professor Jonathan Turley with George Washington University law school urge the committee to slow down I'm concerned about lowering impeachment standards to fit a paucity of evidence an abundance of anger Turley added he believes Congress also is being too hasty when it comes to the issue of obstruction that's the problem when you move towards impeachment on this abbreviated schedule that has not been explained to me why you want to set the record for the fastest impeachment Republican Jim Jordan a staunch trump supporter took that statement even further such a fast impeachment it's a predetermined impeachment but professor Carlin said arguing against the process doesn't negate the severity of the president's actions a president should resist far an inter interference in our elections not demand it and not welcome it it is up to the house Judiciary Committee to decide whether to draft articles of impeachment and if it does so to send those articles to the full house for a vote well the committee malls that over professor Turley reiterated caution is in order it's not that you can't do this just can't do it this way Linda Kenya
3 of 4 constitutional scholars favor impeachment at hearing
"Three legal scholars testify there is ample evidence to impeach the president but a fourth fourth strongly disagrees has the president ever refused to cooperate and an impeachment investigation not until now obstruction one of the potential articles of impeachment against president trump they've got an airing in today's house Judiciary Committee hearing Florida Democrat Val Deming's question Harvard law professor Noah Feldman is it fair to say that if a president stone walls an investigation like we are clearly see and today into whether he has committed an
Democrats outline potential articles of impeachment against Trump
"Democrats on the house Judiciary Committee hope to draft articles of impeachment by next week the house Judiciary Committee held a hearing today testimony from legal experts about the articles of impeachment and whether there's evidence that the president is guilty of impeachable offenses three of the experts testified for the Democrats including Noah Feldman of Harvard Law School the framers understood human motivation extremely well and they knew that a president would have a great motive to corrupt the electoral process to get reelected and that's exactly why they thought that it wasn't good enough to wait for the next election because the president could cheat constitutional law expert and CBS news legal analyst Jonathan Turley testified for the Republican if you're going to accuse the president of bribery you need to make it stick because you're trying to remove a duly elected president of the United States Democrats on the committee were asked to stay in DC over the weekend as a help to draft articles of impeachment next
House Intelligence Committee release 300-page impeachment report
"And one of the things that a lot of us have been anticipating the arrival of the is the intelligence committee's report on one what the heck has been going on in our government involving the the efforts accusing president trump of misusing his office to see foreign help in the twenty twenty presidential race and then this three hundred page report comes out from the Democrat led house intelligence committee I want to talk to Tony say about it who is the White House senior adviser for strategy Tony welcome back largely to be with you and your listeners thanks for having me so I I tell you what they're a lot of times I've probably said I sat down to read the whole thing I read the whole Muller report I couldn't bring myself to read the entire three hundred page house intelligence committee report this is yeah this is all political isn't it does any of this have to do with actually a going after something that the president is actually done wrong not at all in fact there was no factual support for any of the Democrats central claims that the president did anything impeachable Larson frankly it was a more like the angry rants of an overzealous prosecutor who was misrepresenting twelve of his witnesses testimony to continued support of Paul's narrative listen it was essentially three hundred pages of commentary presumption and opinion which which also reflects what most of the testimony they got during the two weeks of public hearings or and at the end of this whole process again we know and it is confirmed the president did not condition aid and did not condition meeting on anything with Ukraine and ultimately they got the aid they got the meeting with the president and the vice president and got four hundred million dollars of lethal military aid that the Obama administration was not able to deliver to them which even those who were critical of the president during the witness testimony said with a better policy so it clearly reflects that this is just a highly political sham that but failed to produce any evidence of any impeachable offense you know Tony there's got to be frustrating for the White House because I know I'm frustrated on the outside that my business the media business the news business has been so I I guess out to lunch on those because give reporters are doing their jobs they be saying yeah this impeachment process is very different from the last two the two that are most recent historically Nixon and Clinton it's entirely different and and yet and usually the media loves to point out differences you know the the the last two in patrons went this way this one's being delivered delivered entirely all along partisan lines the N. and what's really kind of ironic is that the founders actually worried about impeachment becoming simply another political tool in the arsenal of one party or the other and they talked about that when they were writing the constitution said you cannot you have to have the power of impeachment for certain circumstances but you cannot let it become political and here it's become political and all these reporters just stand there and say yep it Sir is this legit they put all this air of legitimacy around the entire process including today well unfortunately I think there are some in the media and not all but some who are way too invested in the outcome of this impeachment process and and have it worked to advance it to the degree they can I think the also interesting aspect of this entire inflation process is Nancy Pelosi the speaker said back in March that he would not go forward with it unless there was a bipartisan consensus to do so I see clearly violated that in fact if there's anything bi partisan about this impeachment process it's been the opposition against it but you you you bring up something very very important Lars which is the fact then it's two points it's the fact that even you know the the founders never anticipated this would be kind of something that boils down to a simple referendum on a vote of confidence on the president right obvious obviously there are going to be political opponents who don't like the president we certainly had many of them in the Republican Party member Akhavan was president as Jonathan Turley the the law scholars testifying today pointed out but it's not designed to remove a president you disagree with or you don't like it's designed to remove a president who's committed a high crime or misdemeanor and violated the constitutional old and that clearly has not been proven at all in fact no wrongdoing has been proven throughout this entire process and and then the last part of this is the people all of this country have a look at this objectively and have rejected the idea that Congress should be wasting their time in our taxpayer dollars on this impeachment champ they should be instead focused on important issues that Americans between New York and California which largely represent the leadership of the Democratic Party trying to push the sample Losi chef and Adler don't really think this matters to them I would much rather see better trade deals a lower prescription drug prices more secure borders and certainly bigger emphasis on passing a budget which we have very few days left to do the funds our military adequately I'm talking to Tony say a who's a White House senior adviser for strategy the other thing they won't point out out of today they literally I mean the Democrats literally said well here's Pamela Karlan bring a law professor and she's you know she's independent and impartial and hears Noah Feldman and he's AT and they literally said important independent are but impartial experts on the constitution Feldman's the guy who's sixty days into your bosses tenure in office said that one of the president's tweets was an impeachable offense and that's no Feldman said that he tweeted out said the fact that the president you know tweeted out about about being wire tapped in the campaign which we now know the campaign was wired tab or lease Carter page was we then the campaign and felt a knot Feldman Carlin is the woman who were literally told friends I cross the street so I don't have to walk in front of the trump hotel old that's done will be an impartial witness sure cords well listen all three of the Democrat witnesses are known political operatives of the Democratic Party in one way or another call in today I think really expose herself as a very vile individual in Barron trump would you describe for my audience because I want to describe what because I've normally said politician kids are off limits unless they break the law or they or they are used in in another words if you send your son or daughter out give speeches forty on the campaign trail what they say is fair game but if you give Barron trump who's not been invite he's there in the pictures and he's there at the White House but he hasn't been a political figure and she attacked this fifteen year old boy yeah so it wouldn't miss garland all all afternoon morning has has given been delivering one polemic attacking and hominem attack on the president after another in this particular case he was trying to you know make the case that he acts like a king and then use the name barren which is a sign to say he had the right to name his son Barron not make his son a barren and that clearly was a low blow and a cheap way to get a laugh which she got from many of the Democrats in the room at the expense of the presence thirteen year old son and yeah I I give a lot of credit to the First Lady who immediately responded and then as have many others don junior and pointed out we what what what a disgusting act of of of of frankly classless ness and meeting that from from this column but she's been doing it all day to them basically the unfortunate part here is that had to be you know said publicly the the the I think the only benefit is he's exposed herself as a clearly not a credible person a Mister Gerhart the other Democrat on the panel I have spent decades in partisan politics work for Bill Clinton and Senate Democrats in the past Tony Sega's the White House senior adviser for
Karlan: "Only kings say 'us' when they mean 'me'"
"Stanford's Pamela Carlin said no one is above the law when the president said do us a favor he was using the royal we there it wasn't a favor for the United States he should have said do me a favor because only king say office when they mean me Harvard's Noah Feldman I believe the framers what identify president trump's conduct as exactly the kind of abuse of office high crime and misdemeanor that they were worried about and they would want the house of representatives to take appropriate action Texas Republican John Radcliffe question G. W. law school professor and CBS news legal analyst Jonathan Turley who insisted Democrats have not proven their case our summarize your your testimony no bribery no extortion no obstruction of justice no abuse of power is that fair not on this record CBS news special report on Pam
Legal experts debate impeachment
"Are you ready the answer was a big yes as Democrats met behind closed doors but as the house Judiciary Committee held its first impeachment hearing a G. O. P. witness said Democrats are not ready George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley says he's no trump supporter but there's no case yet for impeachment Democrats are rushing to find one we're all mad where is that taken us will and a slipshod impeachment make us less man but Harvard's Noah Feldman was among three other scholars who say the evidence bits what the founding fathers feared a president abusing his office and fits their remedy impeachment president trump has committed impeachable high crimes and misdemeanors Sager Matt Donnie Washington
Legal experts argue for, against impeachment
"At the panel's first impeachment hearing Harvard professor Noah Feldman says the founding fathers worried about a president tried to abuse his office to stay in power that's in fact why they thought they needed impeachment and says under what's been shown so far the founders would have expected the house to impeach the president Feldman was one of three experts Democrats call to boost their case for removing president trump but George Washington university's Jonathan Turley the sole G. O. P. witness says Democrats don't have a case partly because they're rushing it this isn't an impulse buy item you're trying to remove a duly elected president United States and it takes time it takes work and says the evidence so far does not merit that soccer may Ghani Washington
House Judiciary Committee holds first hearing in the Trump Impeachment Inquiry
"Report the house Judiciary Committee hears this testimony on the basis of the testimony and the evidence before the house president trump has committed impeachable high crimes and misdemeanors by corruptly abusing the office of the presidency Noah Feldman a constitutional scholar selected by the democratic majority to the panel's ranking Republican congressman Doug Collins tell me this is about new evidence in new things and new stuff we have a new hearing room we have new allies we managers are culpable but this is nothing new folks this is sad sad or no CBS evening news anchor Nora o'donnell says aches are much higher now because the judiciary committee's role is to write the articles of impeachment and then vote on whether to send them to the full house of representatives for constitutional law experts testifying this hour about whether president trump should be