3 Burst results for "Nicole Prowse"
"nicole prowse" Discussed on Factually! with Adam Conover
"Okay we're back with Nicole PROWSE So another area here. A lot of pseudoscientific information about sex is the difference between men and women as a standup comedian. I have heard so much ill-informed pontificating at my workplace about differences between men and women What are some of the myths? And what are some of the things that we know about those differences sexually? I'm sure there's a lot. Yeah so it turns out a lot of things. We attribute within sexuality to gender differences or probably more due to sex drive is on average guys. Fire sex drive in. That's cross cultural. There are very depending who you ask but maybe one culture where women report having a higher sex drive so we hear things like. Oh men are more visual will not if you control for sex drive. It's people who have higher sex drive. Tend to respond more to sexual images like nearly speaking no scientifically And you know it's not that guys have some special receptors in the brain. They're totally different. That pipe porn straight to their penis or something like no that. Of course that doesn't happen It certainly is the case that women orgasm much less consistently than men do very well documented and I back that up in lab physiology so It's very much more difficult. Seems women to get there for what reason we're working on it. These are all these are actually the opposite of misconceptions. These are all sort of like our general cultural beliefs about the sexes that are being held up here in the case of orgasm gaps. Yes but not. The men are more visual. I'd say that's a myth. Oh the idea that men are visual. Because they're hunters and they need to see a lion run and so then they see boob and it's the same as that and they wanNA clunk him on the head with a club I knew. I mean people really believe I listened to some really bad podcast sometimes Where people talk about this. You know so so. It's just that people with higher sex drives were more are more efficient But that's really interesting that that that that whole one thing that really struck me was. I wonder if any insight on this I was watching a video by Trans woman talking about her transition and one of the things he struck me as I said that was really interesting was after she transitions went on. You know all the various hormone therapies. You said That she felt her sexuality change and she no longer needed to have what she called an obligate daily orgasm that like no longer felt like. I just must have an orgasm wants today and I was like. Oh that's like a way to put it that I've not thought about it before that there's just like Sometimes for many feels like you're just like taking a crap you know it's one of the things you gotta do. You know what I mean that. The research currently on women and drive a lot. There's a lot of interest in something called responsive desires and the idea that we're in the past using the same model for men and women where you're just supposed to be walking on the street and Powell you're hit with sex drive and I must go get off now and it doesn't work that way. It seems as much for women and probably not for lower drive men either and so by responsive desire. What we mean is like you gotTa have a little something. I kind of get the genome is. You can't say I just expect lightning to strike and that's my model like if I don't have lightning striking that I have low sex drive. That's not true. So you know if you need someone kind of coming onto you or touching you and like non sexual regions zones to even start to think sexually. That's normal. That is the common experience and so we don't want people you know believing they're deficient or low drive because they need to be touched. I in some way or solicited in some way we are now trying to transition a call that responsive desire differentiating that from spontaneous desire that walking down the street struck by lightning. Kind of feeling that I think you're describing. How how much do we know about when you know people do transition right or like you know taking how? How much does that change? You know this sort of dichotomy that you're talking about. Yeah so those are interesting because they're exactly supra physiological doses of hormones so in general sex drive is not tightly tied to testosterone. And that's another good myth to us That is an either men or women. The Tigers that are in our bodies at any particular time don't seem too tight or experienced sex drive but that is not true in the case of people who are transitioning. Because they're too strong levels are out of soup out of physiological range. They're going super physiological. You know so. This is I'm getting far more or far less to Saas Stran- than Was in a norm within normal limits. Getting and not that. It's a disease but into disease territory. That is if a doctor saw this and knew you weren't getting testosterone would be worried so those are very different kind of levels and tighter of hormones that they're dealing with but within normal limits. You know those don't generally tie to the experience of drive and in terms of men and women or men and our women and women together when we're talking about we're taught doughnuts or any combinations of folks Like what are the misconceptions? What are we learning? What are the fascinating new things? We're learning about couples or triples trying to trying to like be really how inclusive Arabi woke. Yeah exactly yeah so there are. There's the stuff we're doing. And then some labs generally are interested in this kind of fluidity ideas just briefly. The fluidity idea is women. Tend to be more. Broadly aroused To a variety of different stimulus even a straight woman you show her gay porn of men or women gay porn and she tends to respond to it at least a little bit in terms of her genitals at least but if you show guys things that are outside of their stated preferred range. They tend to be very constrained to respond to just what they say. They're interested in and there are a number of labs that are investigating those kind of sexual fluidity issues differences That they think are their between genders. And I'd say we're kind of in the middle of that we've got some you know fare base of knowledge at this point but we're still trying to suss out kind of what some of the things are due to and then we're actually bringing couples into the laboratory in measuring from both of them at the same time to try and understand really what the physiology of interacting looks like so. We're getting a brain measures from both people interacting for the first time. Ever to understand like when someone is providing stimulation. What is their brain look like? And what is the brain of the prisoners sitting there receiving it look like and then Are Those brain states useful for anything you know. Do they have maybe health applications? That's a strong interest of mine. Can we use being highly sexually arouse to help us in a way like meditation may help us? Yeah so one of the questions like to. What extent do we have that kind of relaxed but awake brain state when we're highly sexually aroused and you know if that was the case with couples? Is there an intervention? There you know can we potentially capitalize on that and use it to even have partners helping each other if you stayed or you know. This is a practice they do regularly together. Looks Meditative. Potentially yeah idea of sexual arousal is like an altered state that's like meditative like really resonates with me. Because I think about the Times where you know I've tried to. You know be aroused and have not been able to. You know what I'm not been able to get into it right and it's like something's running around in my head like I'm thinking about work. I'm angry at somebody or I'm you know you're just like you're making out with your partner and inside your head is just like Volvo. And they're kind of like where are you and you're like I'm not here. I'm sorry and then the times when you're most aroused it's like you're it's like your mind falls away and you're just like in that moment and you're just like in this real and it's like one of the best things about it. Frankly is that you lose yourself and that you you know. Become sort of the thing that you're doing and that's a that's a lot like when people talk about meditating we think these are unique brain states and that's one of the kind of discovery as where we think we've made that were trying to you know trust but verify and so we see. Initially when people start to become sexual you know. The brain is very strongly engaged. You have to have a lot of effort. You have to be able to allocate attention to the stimulus kind of as you're describing but then if we say okay you know that's Nice you've been masturbating now and watching porn for twenty four minutes or we give them. We'd like you to try and have an orgasm now. The brain state at that point completely shifts not orgasm but long before it. And that's when we start to see a kind of a loss of cognitive control or reduction of control and that may be something that looks more meditative so I don't think that kind of earlier arousal stages look very like I have to try to pay attention and I have to be awake but then later on shifts to something that looks very distinct so We also see this in the nervous system that is early on heart rate breathing rate August going up and then we say okay now try and have a climax will masters and Johnson said. Well you just keep getting more and more and more and more arousal. Pow Lamma Orgasm. Yeah you go to bed and Our model doesn't look like that. It's like okay. We get breathing. Hurry up and then we say okay try to have an orgasm and then they just like start going down and we're like wait. We know that happened so now we're trying to figure out what that is. Yeah that is Even if you interrogate your own experiences of sex it's not like Oh yeah just keeps going up. I think everyone's had the experience of like you know. Yeah Okay let's try to make it happen and then Oh I. It's house not not quite happening. There's something there's something amiss there's like Yeah it's like a really interesting puzzle to try to figure out like what's actually happening in that moment as even in that moment like you said where you're just like all right. Let's you're having all right. Let's finish up. You know what I mean like. What is that difference? And then what actually gets you to the point of finishing up in not everyone where sensors upset. Okay so Yeah it's like the or some people I think are calling this edging here. That term through the heck is that. Isn't that just being aroused? There's another thing well no. It's maintaining that last moment. As long as you can think that edging is maybe not so special. It's maybe just hanging out in that second phase of Arousal Which is Great. You know. It looks like fun by. I don't know that it's anything special to call it edging. And just yeah. Is there any sort of researching that you know? Th this part of this like. Is there any therapeutic advice that you have for folks like hey one thing I've learned that's like here's a tip? You know what I mean that that can help people with their. You know this is a good one so I think you know. People tend to have problems with one or the other. Sometimes they'll say oh. I get turned on just fine but I can't get over the Hump My. I can't have climax and I don't know why I'm just stuck other times. They're like well. Yeah like if I can get turned on. I can climax easily enough but I can't get into it now..
"nicole prowse" Discussed on Factually! with Adam Conover
"Hello everyone. Welcome to factually. I'm Adam Khan over and here's a story you've heard before a famous man gets in trouble for cheating on his partner. Of course he doesn't WanNa look like jerk in the press though. So here's what he does. He comes out and says no no no. I'm not I'm not a jerk. I'm a sex addict. See By using the language of addiction. He's able to medical problems. Seek treatment and absolve himself. Rikers is not just an asshole. He had a disease. And here's the thing if you've got cash there's a network of scientifically dodgy sex addiction centers. Who are waiting to help you. Launder your reputation. We have seen this story play out again. Time and time again in the press. Just Take Anthony Weiner today the example of one famous Dick The Truth About Sex Addiction. Though is that it isn't really an actual medical thing that look of course it's possible to have sexual behaviors. That are bad for your personal or professional life right. You can totally fuck up sexually in a way that is damaging and it is quite possible to want to seek help with that but if you look in fact scientifically at the way addiction works in the brain. Sex addiction doesn't really measure up instead of people addicted to say drugs or smoking or gambling. Their brain activates very quickly when they see a picture of what they're addicted to give an addicted brain accuser. It's addiction it. Just lights up but when you show as opposed sex addict or porn addict the thing that they're supposedly addicted to their brain. Reacts Pretty Normally another sign of Addiction? Is Something called? Esscalation for something to be addictive. It needs to be more and more addictive over time so in the case of drugs you start with a little bit and then you need more and more until you work your way up to. What could be a lethal dose? In some cases but in porn studies have shown no evidence for escalation in terms of the time spent looking at it or a slide into more and more extreme content. So it's no wonder then that the American Psychological Association and the World Health Organization have rejected sex addiction as a clinical definition. Six suggestion just does not seem to be a real thing now as a society we are sex obsessed but this misunderstanding about sex addiction is just the sexy tip of our ignorance. Iceberg sex is a foundational part of our humanity but our conversation about it is often shrouded by superstition and pseudoscience and senseless moralism. The fact is that despite its centrality to our lives. We don't know that much about sex at all. Well here today to tell us more about the new frontiers of sex science. Our guest today is an honest to God sex scientists. Her name is Nicole prowse. She's a PhD in currently a scientist with libra. Now I want to say we did our very here to have an inclusive conversation about sex but I want you to be involved in that conversation. 'cause I'm always trying to do better in that regard so please hit me up on twitter. Let us know how we're doing and with that said Hey. I really hope you enjoyed this conversation. It was a really fun. Please welcome Nicole Browsing Nicole. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me on. So you're a SEC. Scientists sure confident about it. I go by many names. That's a good one. Okay what what else are you called? Technical is sexual psycho. Physiologist said. That's an umbrella for the psychology and physiology kind of joining those fields together psycho physiologist cool and you work for a company called Myself Libro. I'm very sorry your company's Got Lieber as and you told me just before we started recording. You do what sexual biotech now. What the Hell is that? That's very intriguing. It's a sexy our way of saying sexual psycho physiology. Okay okay the yeah. Most people don't know that term so kind of sexual biotech nays. Broadly what we're doing and It's maybe less sexy than that makes me. Yeah I mean I just start. My mind starts spinning with like science fictional ideas like like Nanno boss and make you horny or something like really well wait. I made that one of the things we'd worked on is like Patterns of Automated Genital Stimulation for an orgasm steady. We were working on and the question is what is that like. Why does an automated pattern? That would work for men and women to such thing exist and it turns out there no data on that so we had to do some piloting and that involved automating vibrate around the genitals to figure out how to how to stand cheat that response so there are people so i WanNa get the day to day a Sec Science. You got a vibrator and you got control. Group is getting one kind of pattern absorbs and then you're some people are getting. Some people are getting or what? That's what I want you to think. Most of our day programming school analysis but the fund as our yes like piloting bringing in poor friends pilots who are willing to let them up in non-threatening ways to try out different things that were so sex science you. You said you don't have you didn't have data on that particular thing. You were looking for a SEC. Science understanding is it's kind of weirdly undercover topic. Yeah we have all kinds of challenges and getting our work done and so we're a very thin on some areas of development and how to test things especially in the high arousal range so that's kind of anything beyond a few minutes a porn. We don't have a lot of data four in the lab. Now why is there so some of the challenges are political especially in the US? We have Groups that openly oppose us and try and stop our work For example the primary funding group in the US is the National Institutes of Health And there have been five grants brought before Congress in the history of the NIH all five or six grants. That is these grants that were awarded in Congress trying to take them away because they didn't like the H. Was funding anything to do with sexuality so as thin as the funding already is near our grants can be taken away from us just because of the content area that we work on and so those are kind of solid institutional barriers. That obviously if you have no money you can't get work done. And there are lots of protests as well so near the. Us Is a Christian nation and we have lots of religious groups that oppose what we do. And there's a lot of Christians in the nation I wouldn't I wouldn't call it a Christian depending. Yeah how you WANNA slice that But they're certainly very vocal and very influential or you know. We have people who feel very strongly about sexual values and so we're we tried to reduce our bias and Investigate things from a scientific perspective. But it's impossible not to step on someone's toes with almost anything steady in that domain. And so you know we regularly are getting threatened and everyone wants US fired from wherever we are just. It's a tough place to get good scientists to work because you know if you're an excellent neuroscientist and you can go into depression where there's a path and there's funding and it's a known quantity or you can go and have to fight your way for the rest of your career to even be able to do your research. If you're excellent. You have a choice. Where do you go? Do you probably go to less resistant path. Where you're not going to have to fight that fight everyday. It occurs to me that you know of the types of scientists. We've we've had on the show sleep. Scientists all different just trying to think about stuff with the human body often they're university affiliated and and you know but come to think of it. I'm like well it almost tracks for me that you're An independent operator Doing this research opposed to hear from USC. Today is there. Is there also institutional barrier with those big research institutions that like? Maybe don't want people jacking off in the science lab absolutely. I wasn't academic for ten years. Actually and I came here to work at Ucla in psychiatry and that was my kind of a decision to transition out entirely and not to try any more academia was we tried to get a study through to study orgasm in the lab and the Ethics Board will allow us to buzz the genitals we could put a vibrator on them and like Buzzer for a few seconds. But we had to promise they wouldn't need Jackie late and we can try. It doesn't sound like much of an orgasm. Yeah well so if you want to study that process this a no go like. We have to let them do that. Ethics Board wouldn't allow it through and for not giving any good reason that we could discern another university. Science isn't supposed to be this much fun. All right. That was kind of what we can blue balls. This we draw the line. What if you go to the ethics board like Like a jilted fifteen year old boy like oh no come on. It's dangerous if you if you don't comb it could be bad for you like on the myth too late. Sorry guys. That is a myth. You can't use that argument but so you went into the independent world. Yeah and so I still collaborate with universities you know I love scientists and we get along really. Well it's more the Kind of deans. That our hand wringing and worried you know what their donors are. So I. Yeah. We still have oversight Same oversight they of ethics view that any university research has just collaborate with them and I think those universities are happy to have the orgasm. Study AT SOME WEIRD INDEPENDENT LAB IN L. A. That's not us. It's not happening on our campus. There's just the little it's like. The science version of like the little curtain in the back of the video. Rental store is the adults only. It's like just a little bit separate so Mama Deck and still shop in front but like if you want the good stuff you know what function and it gets. The work done. Must go but this other. It's hard to get that research done because sex is like such a fundamental part of human life. I mean we I would. Is it the case that we understand a lot about eating and breathing and sleeping but a lot less about sex in many ways? Yes especially kind of functionality insect so we know a lot more about male anatomy. But they're still questions about female anatomy and functionality. That's where we're like gone like basic stuff. Yeah so kind of Like you know once you've got a cadaver you can cut it up and you can look at stuff but you don't really know how that works when the person is alive. Which seems more? That's not the best way to study. Sex is just. Cut UP A CADAVER. Help you a little bit. But you're like how does this cadaver -actly so if you want to say well how you know when this is an action. What's really happening? We understand that. Yeah so the function as functional aspect. Is I think where we really have big gaps in understanding like how does this work when someone's interacting You know by themselves even as one thing versus with a partner that is infancy. We know very little about two people interacting together sexually really. Yeah this is You may have seen really fun study. I did with a case Ten years ago maybe now they put two people in an MRI tiny people and had them have a vaginal intercourse and just image pelvis. And I go oh..
"nicole prowse" Discussed on Science Vs
"Them. Episode of science is brought to you by squarespace square spaces, custom domains, and beautiful professional looking templates will have your blog portfolio online store up and running in minutes. Something that can be easy to forget when you're building a side is the people might be checking it out from fun or a tablet according to the latest data from step counter across the world, fifty, two percent of people browse the web on a mobile device. Guess what? Guys? He is a few tips from squarespace on how to make sure your side is looking good from way. One, someone's loading your page on their phone. Don't wanna eat uploads of the Dada. All make it load slowly, sir. Try to keep each one of your pages around up five megabytes. Keep your images reasonably sized said they load quickly and don't take up too much space on someone's smartphone screen. And finally, three, if you using Swissbase check out the style editor to make sure the lettuce spacing is set to zero pixels, Ohio, or else. Lettuce might overlap when you're looking at it on a small screen, and when you're all done, you can check out your sexy, use Quispe site on your mobile by using the setting Kohl's device view that to save ten percent of the first purchase of a website or domain go to squarespace dot com. And when you're ready to launch use the promo code science VS that's science. The S. Welcome back. We just found out that Shane Krause, a psychologist for wool. Veterans says that many of his patients have problems with six and the experiences seem to fit this description of an addiction. Basically, they crave sex. They have a lot of trouble controlling the sexual urges and this messes with their life. But there's a big scientific debate going on him and we wanted to get the other position missionary. To get the other side of this debate. We spoke to Nicole Prowse. Each is in your eye scientist who used to work at the university of California in Los Angeles. She since founded her own independent research organization. And the Cole has done a bunch of research into sex, including getting women to watch porn, and then measuring how what they get. Facilitates. So very first thing I'm showing older adult women porn in measuring the response. And I thought that was the coolest thing I've ever done every didn't just interview hook because she showed some old ladies of fine time our report street revenge. And again, Nicole has written a lot about sex. And the first thing we want to know about was this idea that there's some brain chemistry stuff that underpins sex addiction in the thrust of the idea. He M is that when you do something that feels good, like gambling or having sex, it can release this chemical cold dopamine and studies have found that in some addictions like meth and cocaine, something can go wrong with how these chemical works in people's brains. And curiously studies have found that some people with Parkinson's disease who take this medication that I'm up dopamine in the brain end up having these strong sexual urges, and they funded. Really hard to control them. So could this chemical have anything to do with sex addiction? I do not believe it is possible that someone has a sex addiction just because sex involves reward in dopamine. There are literally thousands of activities in behaviors that involve dopamine. That is everything from watching your favorite movie to playing with puppies, holding a baby, these all involve those systems. And if we start calling all those things addictions than the word is meaningless. What Nicole is saying. He is that sure sex releases dopamine. But if you want to make the argument that sex addicts have problems with their dopamine, then you need to do those studies and buying lodge. They haven't been done a group of researches from Spain. Recently wrote that they is little empirical evidence on this. Okay. So Nicole saw that they want any convincing studies to show her that sex addicts have different brains to regular folk. And then she wanted to test out. One of the biggest claims out there about sex addicts. It's this idea that they lose control of their own desires. There are definitely many men and women who if you directly ask them, do your sexual behaviors, feel out of control. Does your viewing abroad ticket feel out of control? They will answer? Absolutely. Yes, it does and it feels out of control all the time. But if some point you have to actually test this and scientists like Nicole have tested whether the claims of sex addicts, a true in all kinds of ways they strap this contraption that looks like a swim cap with wise bouncing off of it onto people's heads to measure the brain activity while they're watching porn. They've also measured how hard or rigid guy's penis gets, which is a bit trickier to measure. So how do you measure that? So rigidity creatively enough is measured by instrument called the rigid scan that device when it samples. Every fifteen seconds and it titans until it feels a certain resistance, and then loosens to accommodate the current Pena size hot hitting work. And by the way, we know this season a lab then not testing penises in the wild. But if you want to get good data, you have to measure everybody under the same conditions said the lab is what we've got. So these researches wanted to find out how well people really could control their sexual urges in this one study Nicole, did she invited more than a hundred people to her lab? And then she got them to watch some porn. It's mostly vanilla pawn. There's no beady SM, then new fetishistic activities and no sex toys. And then Nicole and her tamed till H person to react naturally to the film's ought to control themselves. And she looks to see what happens. So picture this, the watching a racy film and a research tells them don't get toned on. And do get turned on and Nicole found that people who felt that they were out of control could actually control themselves. It was especially the guys who said they felt out of control that actually were more in control that is they wanted having a better decreases when we asked them to decrease their sexual responses, what is it? So the guys who thought they couldn't stop themselves from getting a stiffy actually could yes to Nicole the takeaways that many people seem to be able to control the desires, even if they really think they come. And this isn't just a thing that happens when people watch porn in a lab. Nicole says that when it comes to all kinds of sex stuff, people just aren't that good adjudging their own behavior and whether it's normal, there's a history of this in sex research that is people who are worried about, am I normal, am I? Okay. Tell me I'm alright when they're actually tested in a laboratory setting. We can't find evidence for what they're worried about. Like you see this in research on guys who think that penis. Is way too small and they want to get soldiery to length in it. And when you measure it, that penis sizes puffery Nomo. And then when we bring this back to sex addicts, well researches, did this survey about people's sex lives and it found those considered themselves six at aches, which was around one hundred seventy people. They were getting laid and masturbating about as much as everyone else in that study. Yeah, they thought they will oversexed, but they would just normal. So where does this leave us? If people like Jeff or Shane's patients don't have sex addiction? Is that something else that could be going on? We ask Nicole, I think the most likely case is that what people call sex addiction overwhelmingly is high sex drive in people who have a lot of shame around their sexuality. Nicole believes that what could be happening here is that these so-called sex addicts ashamed of their desires, maybe ashamed of how much sex they won't or who they want to have sex with. They think there's something wrong with them, but the perfectly normal and these ties into another finding from this huge study on porn watching researches, followed thousands of porn watches over time, and they found that what predicted whether or not like thought they were addicted to porn wasn't how much of the stuff that these guys will watching. But whether they had quote, moral scruples. Around pornography and quite Nicole, says that it's also possible that some people who think they are sex addicts actually have depression anxiety and the using sex as a we out and Shane, a psychologist who treats wall veterans sex addiction. He acknowledges that other mental illnesses might play a role hill. So what it looks like then to Nicole is that this isn't about an addiction, but something else, shame, depression, anxiety, a fear of not being normal, but the elephant in the room is this even if these people are suffering and having a hard time controlling this sexual urges. What if following those urges leads to ripe? What do we do with that? Well, finicky call. It's pretty simple. So when you do something without someone's consent, you have crossed into sexual assault territory and sexual assaults. That's not what this debate is about. This scientific debate is about whether sex addiction exists that is they're really people out there who struggle so much to control their sexual urges, that they have a disease. And the thing is this just. Not a lot of evidence here. Scientists trying to cobble together what they is to see if it fits this model of addiction, and the cupboard is just pretty bad. And that's why, when the American psychiatric association, the gatekeepers of what gets to be called an addiction or not came together on this, they said, no, it's not enough evidence that sex addiction will something like it is a thing. Shruti and I sat down in the studio to talk about the research that we've got so far is so now where do you stand on this? Like, do you do you think sex addiction Israel. Yeah, I don't know. It just seems like like a snowflake on a sidewalk at it's appealing. It's sparkling, but you know, shop rave sunlight, unlike like melts. I mean, are you bring it into the lab and you poke at it and prodded and like measure it with a religious sky. It no longer holes. Beautiful way of saying this is bull. Well, it's complicated. Given that the is in a lot of evidence here. Why is that these group of researches who are fighting for it and who are saying does exist. I think that, well, I'm, I can't speak for those clinicians, but maybe maybe this is what's happening. They see what the patients go through the patients suffering, and then they see like the little signs that backs this up and they say, well, you know it, that makes sense it, it's, it rings true and not just that it helps my patient to know that. You know, I'm not a freak that this some kind of scientific basis full my experiences I have. I have two conflicting thoughts on this, and I caught. Make them work. One is will science isn't heater make you feel better? Like science is supposed to be leaning towards some objective truth. And if and if that truth isn't there, or if the evidence isn't there that this condition exists, then signs shouldn't just be like, oh, thank you a label to make you feel better. You know, scientists in there for that. But then on the other hand, I'm like, well, addictions release squishy and messy and medicine is really squishy your messy and people are. So if you want to give them a label to make them feel better, go right ahead. I like how and I don't know what's the right to think about it. What do you think. It's it's? It's nearly philosophical.