19 Episode results for "National Institute of drug"

1312 Treating Substance Use Disorder with Dr. Glen Hanson : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1:08:32 hr | 1 year ago

1312 Treating Substance Use Disorder with Dr. Glen Hanson : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

"It's just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interviewing Dr Glenn R Hansen DDS PhD he received his DDS from Ucla in seventy three and his PhD in Pharmacology from the University of Utah Taua Seventy eight and completed a fellowship a neuropharmacology in one thousand nine hundred eighty at the national institutes of Health and I ate Bethesda Maryland he practiced dentistry dentistry full and part-time over ten year period. He is a tenured full professor of pharmacology and Vice Dean in the school of Dentistry. He was the acting director of the the National Institute of Drug Abuse at the National Institute of Health and recognizes the leading expert on the neurobiology of the psychostimulants stimulants. UPPERS I. Dr Hanson has given several hundred presentations around the world on his research and program development related to drug abuse and the public health implications his also also testified multiple times for the United States Congress and the State of Utah legislator on issues of Drug Abuse Policy and Medicaid dental strategies and is frequently interviewed interviewed by local and International. Press about this topic's he's a member of the State of Utah Legislative Advisory Committee on drugs of abuse. He's the author of over over two hundred forty period. Viewed Scientific Papers Thirteen editions of a textbook entitled Drugs and society and has been awarded over thirty five million dollars dollars and NIH National Ceuta Health grants to conduct research related to drug abuse and his treatment. Dr Hanson has recently been involved in studying the effects of including comprehensive dental care as part of the treatment for substance use disorder. And it was a really interesting article that caught my eye Where where was it where the Was all over social media Just this May twenty-first Twenty nineteen dental care helps drug abuse patients recover. The study showed the drug abuse patients who consulted dental professionals for major oral health problems stating treatment almost two times longer and then they quote yours truly. This is a powerful synergy between oral healthcare and substance use disorder said Glenn Enhancing The studies I author and professor at the University of Utah Dr Hanson. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. This is such a controversial subject has seems to be so emotional and I can tell by the word you use now you have a PhD like you call it You don't I'm calling substance abuse. You call it. What do you call it? Substance use disorder substance use disorder. So it seems like I just want to start stirred this an old perspective. It seems like when I got out of school in eighty seven The media said the doctors are the bad guy. 'cause there's grandma suffering offering from cancer. She had surgery. They won't give her any pain pills and we were the bad guys so we started giving them the pain pills and then the pendulum swung all the the other side. And now they're like well you naughty little boy look what you did to grandma she's She's a heroin addict. And how do you. How do you gauge between you need this opioid for pain? But I don't want this to ruin your life and you become addicted to it. Well I tickets one. You have to train the provider the one who writes the prescription the one who assesses the risks on the part of the patient and to start start off with they have to understand what substance use disorder really is most people know addiction but it's referred to now as as you gay issue is defined in the DSM five manual and the disk in five manual. These manuals are used for psychiatrist interest in mental health workers to diagnose mental health disorders in. There's about a hundred and fifty two hundred pages out this manual that talk just about drug abuse. And so in this last edition they decided not to refer to it as dependence or addiction but to call it substance shoes disorder. That's why you hear that new nomenclature in the last few years because of this assess switching term that came out of the DSM DSM five But that's what it's referring to basically is what most of us think up as far as addiction so providers need to know what the differences insist between drug dependence drug abuse and substances disorder or addiction. so forgive me if I use those two interchangeably. 'cause I WANNA make sure that you're listening. Audience is aware of addiction. We're talking about the provider. Divider need to know that. There's a difference between these three phenomena and the three were drug dependence drug abuse and and Drug and Substance Substance Use disorders or addiction entering. Now I I've been hearing more and more more that If you have a drug issue oh I'm not so I don't have the PhD of this. I might just call drug issues plays but if you have a drug dependence drug abuse substance use disorder that at least you know eighty percent of these people have an underlying mental diseased mental disorder. Do you agree with that or disagree with that. I I really disagree with it just because it. It is so distinct. According to the individual all substance use disorder does not look the same. It's kind of like a cancer. No sometimes we you say oh yeah. My friend has cancer well. Cancer isn't cancer isn't cancer isn't cancer because there's so many different forms and and works very differently in different people in substance use disorders. Same Way. It's a very individual phenomena and so risk looks different environment looks different. There are those who claim that even those who have very low risk for substance substance use disorder if you put them in the right environment high stress Very very threatening where there's lot of tension a lot of demands placed on you at a very low self image that you who are still vulnerable to substance use disorder so it's the environment and there is also the risks that natural genetic risks and it. It may be the disease. There are some diseases where like neurodegenerative diseases where damaged unto the brain. That could be. It could be done down because of an accident. A car accident the damage to piece of your brain or it could be a pathology like a Parkinson's disease canals timers disease. That makes you more susceptible to problems with drugs than when you were younger. So it's a time of life that could it also have an impact as to whether you're suffering issues with that shoe so there is nobody that is immune. I'm the right kind of circumstances the having these kinds of problems with these substances humans are extremely complex. Aren't they much her. I'm I'm convinced at age. Fifty seven that. I'm the only normal person on well. That sounds like a mental have I diagnose myself I'm history's always in the news. About opioids like this. Just recently opioids unnecessary for dental work. DOC says American dental association recently reported dentistry is responsible for prescribing. Twelve percent of all instant release opioids Dr Mo.. Oh Jam Sutton advanced cosmetic dentistry talk to Fox News It's it's a tough call because we'll talk wisdom thi this. It seems like that's the procedure. The news talks about the most little billy came in his eighteen. He got his for wisdom. Teeth removed Dr routinely gave Vicadin. And now there's a problem So and then the as even saying that the dentist prescribed twelve percent of instant release opioids. Is that not to What what are your thoughts about? Dentists and opioids. Why would say that? The dental profession has sort of a unique niche in this big problem. I testified I'd been an expert witness. I've been involved in committees both at the national on the local level discussing this issue who are the providers who are the individuals that we need to really focus our attention on in providing education patients so that they're involved in the solution and they're not involved in causing the problem and when dentistry comes up almost without exception for those who know who really know what's going on here. They see them as a piece of the puzzle usually they are used by individuals who are best. Ud as a means of filling a void of getting access S.. Two drugs for a short period of time so like over the weekend or whatever reason they've run out of their opioid or they don't have access to their supply apply. Maybe they're out of town and so they go to a dentist on a Friday afternoon when he or she is just about to close may say oh. I've got this terrible root canal problem. It hurts so bad. Is there any way you can give me a just a small prescription. Get me over the weekend. I'll be here Monday. I'll the dentist wants to go home. Doesn't know the patient accepts them at their there were. Maybe they're dressed while they look like all they should be having an SUV. Problem writes the prescription. Gives them ten fifteen. If he's really agenda it gives a twenty so they get these using the carry them over until they can find the main source of their drug where they're getting hundreds op. Tablets are getting ten or fifteen so they used the dental professionals as it means to hold them over until they can get access says to the big numbers very rarely. Do you see dentists up. Prescribing hundreds of these opioids which are necessary in order to maintain an S. U. D. A. Person. They're rarely the ones that are doing that. They're they're they're contributing but usually they don't start started And also note ended and they just kinda contribute in the middle of their disorder. Ignorant as to what's going on around around Monday right there little prescription and SUV patient goes on his or her way When you say their source source I hear other people? This is You know there's many many different opinions and angles on this but a lot of people say that when when you you look at the opioid deaths I mean. And they're they're so high. I mean they're incredibly high. A lot of people say that that's a side effect of them being illegal that if they bought the opioid like say bike it in our heidrick own at Walgreens it wouldn't have been cut with cut now and that when it's illegal and they drive drive to underground illegal manufacturing opioids. The way they're made is a big part of the of the OPIOID death. Do you think mm-hmm how do you wrap your mind around the pros and cons of it being illegal so this they buy illegal drugs cut with you know other. There's things versus at least that they were legal. You would know. A high-quality laboratory made the OPIOID. So there certainly is a fraction of individuals who overdose and die because there's some fenton nail or something else that they used to cut the medication they are going to be illegals. You're not going to get these from the pharmacy. You're not going to get because the prescription but you're going to get it because you went to the street for whatever reason and it may ab that your prescriber usually a physician or a PA.. Your prescriber says enough is enough. I'm really concerned. You're getting too much judge so I'm GONNA cut back. I'm not going to provide you the stuff anymore and so they have to look elsewhere to satisfy the the addiction they go to the street and then they take something that has been nil in it so there are some deaths come from this. But they're the minority. The majority of people who over were dose on opioids usually have multiple drugs in their system. They have a prescription opioids in their system. Either Anoxia he co down maybe a morphine or they have a maturity or could be a hydro down. I mean there's a variety of drugs that they could be taken hit he could even be Methadone. It could be part of the treatment where they are using Methadone to help help them get off heroin and they're using it legally but they mixed with other stuff so these folks and I've been an expert witness on a a number of these locally nationally and in every case that I worked on there are at least three other drugs in the system. Usually there was alcohol in it. There was sixty percent of the time. There's a benzodiazepine in it. Like a valium drug and and then there is an over the counter or a common kind of drug in their either an antihistamine that they're using to try to get to slate sometimes they have they have congestion. And they're using the antihistamine or they have muscles that are jumpy and they're using a muscle relaxant Soma. So that's in there so there's three or four and then now we're seeing more and more as medical marijuana or recreational. Marijuana is becoming yeah look they have. THC In their system as well so they've got three or four CNS depressants and opioid is one of them and they're working together and they typically die in their sleep so they also have natural physiological CNS S. depression because of the sleep usually die about two or three in the morning. Somebody comes in the next morning and tries to wake them up and they can't wait come up because they have Sakaba Cobb overnight. So it's not just opioids opioids is a critical piece discussion. It's other things that are happening being in their life that they're trying to address other than just pain. Yeah I mean there's been some very high profiles every thing you were saying. Remind mind me of the Whitney Houston case the multiple things found in her bloodstream. Typical do so you think they Do you think the legalization and another very controversial Legalization of marijuana were seeing that role across the state. Do you think that will make some people leave the harder stuff like opioids and do something less toxic or less lethal lethem like marijuana or what is your view of this wave of marijuana legalization absolutely not. I don't believe that for second and I've worked in this field for forty years now and I testified before the drug czar before the administration when I was back at National Institute on Drug Abuse Abuse and at that time this was in two thousand one. Two thousand two. We're very concerned about marijuana. The drug czar had decided decided that they as they're as they're focused they were gonNA use a campaign to try to discourage marijuana use is so they asked me to come and explain to the drug czar and their organization The da about marijuana and what does that look like. And what are my concerns about the marijuana discussion and marijuana's the drug or is a group of drugs because marijuana is a plan has got a lot of stuff in it and it represents a category of drugs. We call the canals annoyed. So the active ingredient in marijuana's. THC that tried cannabinoid Loyd heard about CD which is connected. Die All but it's also kind of canaveral annoyed that's related to THC. So there's a Zam Lee of these drugs that are out there and people tend to think Oh. Marijuana is what we're talking about a really not talking about marijuana we're talking about got a category of drugs that have different properties but they have some similarities as well. So what does that mean in terms. The medical discussion. Is there a place for marijuana in trading disorders. I don't know if marijuana is the best style of what we WANNA use. But there will be connected noy drugs that will give selectivity and allow us to access excess body symptoms. It will be useful and are being useful in treating disease minor. League problem with marijuana. One is a plant. Why do you WANNA use a plant that has all kinds of hundreds of chemicals that we don't nothing about as a means to introduce introduced? THC which is drug you really after. This doesn't even make medical sense and then to think you're going to be able to control things such as Dose Close Control Self Administration when you've got a drug that is a very potent drug works with a lot of different systems. It has a really bad profile in people who have mental health problems. Everybody accepts view. Take marijuana and you've got underlying problems such as psychosis or schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or affect disorder. This drug can cause great harm to these people fifty to sixty percent of the users a recreationally and prescription fiction have underlying mental health disorders. So we're giving the drug to the very people that it's most likely to create side effects. Yeah so it's just it's it's peace stick of dynamite and we've lived diffused and now we're going to sit back and see what happens happens with it has used patterns exchange because people start using it more and more and more and more disliked tobacco. You know tobacco wasn't all that toxic when people people only smoked once or twice a day when they got up to two or three packs a day that we realize what a toxic substances. We'll see the same thing I have no doubt we'll see the same thing with marijuana as you start to get. People were smoking it as much as individuals smoke tobacco. They'll do the same kinds of stuff that'll damage so long it'll have problems. It could cause cancers it'll have mental problems at will alter your logical systems and then we're really really concerned about adolescent use. We know there's good literature out there that says adolescence to use this while they're developing have a very very high incidence of problems long-term if not permanent problems but ninety percent of the first time users of marijuana are adolescence it always has been that way even when it was illegal ninety percent of the first time users rattled lessons. Why do we think this will change with? We make it legal all are if we make medical and adolescence set off his can hurt me. This has been approved by physicians and the Medical Article Community. This is GonNa do me good and it's going to attract them to using this drug even more. I mean that's one thing we learned time and time again. I'm not joe with just with marijuana but with every drug tobacco is the same way. Alcohol is the same way that adolescence are more interested in these drugs than adults. Adults are and so whatever you do in terms of making access easier for these compounds better always asked the question. Why is this GonNa do to an already already big problem with a high adolescent use of these substances and are we ready to deal with this as for the next twenty thirty forty years? I'll be folks grow up after bringing their brains up under the influence of marijuana. But what do you think of a child future win safe from twelve to twenty two. They've I've been smoking marijuana daily. Well one thing we already know and these are hard studies to do because it's hard to get an I. R. B. and Institutional Review aboard to approve giving an adolescent marijuana three times a day while they grow up. I'm GonNa do this so governance. All you can do is retrospective studies and go back and see if I can find somebody out there who self reports that. They used at a certain rate over over the growth during their developmental period. So it's retrospect they self report but still we know we know that if they are exposed frequently they there will be very high instance of addiction. We know that it'll be very hard for them. I'm to get off of the marijuana decide tobacco or you used about early on or alcohol you use early on the brain changes. Its Neuro Chemistry because it sees substances. That are active and all the way those pathways form. So now it's used to seeing when there are adults they expected almost as though it's a natural substance they expected and you try to come and take it away. The brain does not like that because you disrupted dotted all meals. Stasis of the brain that had developed throughout its adolescent period and they'll have withdrawals they'll be really the high cravings and motivation to use it. It'll be very hard to get them off. Some people in Dentistry are reporting that the cannabis Abbas users need more anesthesia for surgery. Are you noticing that I could see why that could be the case Here again. We're in an area that has not been well studied. We think that the receptors. These are the targets for Things like THC or other substances related to the to the THC. We know that some of them are involved in pain modulation relation and so if you are a user. There's one thing we know about marijuana and that is it causes tolerance and all all the CNS depressant stugatz alcohol data Benzel dyes paints. Do it the opioids do it and marijuana does it. They all 'cause tolerance hollering so that the systems adjust if you use drugs over and over and over again which means if you want to maintain the effect you have to increase the dose so as tolerance occurs. You're dosing increases. You either have to take the substance more often or you've got to find a more potent substance out there which is already happening with marijuana. The percent of active ingredients in marijuana. One is two to three times higher than we've ever seen it in the past already cultivating hire more potent marijuana and some of this is because people are using it more and more and more and they want the fact in order to do that. You need a more potent Cepsa site going from Hydro Kodo own to a oxycodones to a Federal Neil. The Hydra Code doesn't work anymore doesn't control anymore. A bump up to the next potency and then you go to the next potency. While what do we do with marijuana we do as we spoke more and we cultivate it so that the ingredient active ingredient is higher higher percentage which also means. It's more likely to cause side effects. which is again what? We're having a problem with our opioids because we're much more concerned about having feted Neil Berry high potency. Easy to kill people with Fenton Hill. Then we are with hydro Kodo doesn't mean we're not concerned about hydro 'cause we certainly are but anytime fed nil comes into the the discussion. We all get really excited. Because we know it only takes micrograms to kill people what fence nail. It takes hundreds of milligrams to kill people people with High Dakota well. We're seeing the same phenomenon. I'm not saying we've got a fed nil cannabinoid out there although also not saying the someday we may not find ones but we do see that. We're getting higher potencies of the products. We don't have really good control over the cultivation Asian of these products so coming back to your question about pain is if you're using it a lot it's going to mess up with a lot out of systems that have a Noida element to them and to the extent a pain has a cannabinoid element. You may be developing tolerance parts to that part of the pain pathway and so when you come and try to use traditional whether it's opioid or aspirin or Acetaminophen Ibuprofen. You find that you need more of it because it's developed a piece of its pain. Pathway has become come tolerant. It's not as sensitive as at want to us because it's been seeing this seeing the struggle over again to compensate by increasing the doses of these other drugs in order to control the path. That makes sense. Does your very profound. There's a big History I wonder what you what lessons we've learned from history Samuel Johnson used to say the The chains a habit are too weak to be affeldt until they are too strong to be broken and the opium wars and China. I mean those were from eighteen thirty nine to eighteen sixty so it would be the hard to say. This is a new problem. Yeah so wh- what so. It's not a new problem. Is it. Now it's not a new problem and yet we're not any smarter at addressing that we think we're fairly sophisticated we know the pharmacology. We note the molecular biology orgy. We know there's genetics. We know this. We know that we know the other and yet there are still people who are dying from overdoses. There are still hundreds of thousands or millions of people who get addicted. The addiction is a little different. I mean in those ancient days the Chinese days as or the other societies that could cultivate the marijuana poppies or the opium poppies they for the most part where he inner self administering or they had some herbal herbal stuff that would provide the raw material for them or today. We have doctors and dentists this and other prescribers who could give it to them. And hopefully they're better trained at recognizing someone who's got a substantial risk potential and so they're careful they manage and they watch closely in warned their patients and they tell them how to avoid avoid problems with it in a better way than they did anciently. But I'm not sure we're all that much better terms of outcomes. It doesn't seem like we're any better or at preventing severe diction preventing overdoses and terrible tragedies with these substances what what lessons do you think we should have learned from China. I mean we're coming up on twenty twenty so two hundred years ago China's one fifth of the world's population. And what do you think What what do you think the main takeaway lesson is from the opium wars the history of the opium wars to to the extent that I that I understand? It is that Britain who had lost a lot of its access to T- not at tax revenue was looking for substitute in. They came across opium from China. I mean T- came from China and so they had already engaged in in commercial transactions with China and they said well let's shift from T- let's go to another product let's work on the opium in the year producing and you don't really want to produce a you're trying to control it so give it to us and we'll distribute it for you. You make a lot of money on it and this one on for awhile and in Britain did make a lot of money and then China's said now we just can't do this anymore more. This is too destructive to our society. We want to stop this and Britain said no no. You can't stop at. This is making a lot of money. Wait for our nation and so that's where they went to war. Britain said. No you'd have to give us a provider This substance whether they had contracts axe or whatever and China's said no we don't want to be the opium source for the rest of the world and they ended up. Fighting Britain gets Hong Kong and a bunch of other things. But I think illustrates where society that is examining. Its problems carefully comes to to the conclusion. That enough is enough. We have got to put a stop to this. We can't let it take. Its natural course. We have to intervene and and tried to restrict its access because it's going to hurt our society I'd already has. It's GonNa hurt it even more and they are willing to go to war in order to change that halfway around. I think we should look at them and say China figured it out. They figured it have destructive was to their society. Maybe we need to look at ourselves and see if we haven't been the providers of some of these opioid products Through our pharmaceutical companies. And maybe we need to step back and take a more responsive position as far as providing the stop controlling and making sure that people understand and bombed rose bowl are protected from. It's out it's addictive consequences There's a lot of high profile trials over Companies manufacturing the opioids do you. You think those are well-deserved or do you think people are what are. What are your thoughts on those trials? I would say yes and no I actually actually a fairly familiar with some of them just because of a worry came from And My addiction background did my expertise and people talk to me and asks for opinions and that sort of stuff. I don't think that there are any innocence here but I don't think that there there is a company that is so guilty to we want to totally drum it out of business and bankrupt it. It seems like everybody should take some responsibility. It's not just the company's fault the company's trying to make a product and early on now they were probably merchandising some of these products particularly the sustained release once with not fully understanding understanding the potential of the addiction the consequences from what I know and what I've seen once. They started to realize as what was going on they tried to correct and they tried to create forms and products. That couldn't be abused lose to the same way. The original ones by putting substances in the sustained release products so that the addict wouldn't be tempted into Extract the Oxycontin out and injected. So I mean they were anxious to prevent addiction and I think they did things to try to prevent that addiction. A lot of people are saying that. There's no need for an opioid industry ministry that they often quote that. If you alternate tylenol with aspirin every four hours that that was you know that that's even even better than an opioid other people say well. There's no clinical trials on that if someone said to you there's no need for opioids and dentistry a period into story. Implants wasn't he through canals. How would you answer that? Would you agree disagree. I would say that if used properly opera lead the OPIOIDS. It's a tool. I mean all of these things are tools in all of them have side effects. You know how many people we kill with aspirin every year because they lead out or they have ulcers paraded ulcers mean aspirin when it's not used properly can be very damaging being toxic drug. What about Acetaminophen? You know there are a lot of people who died from liver failure if they use too much acetaminophen and we had we. We didn't know this for a long time and now anybody that has underlying liver problems whether they have hepatitis. History or they're now call consumer Zimmer they probably should not be using a much acetaminophen because out bill liver toxicity so every one of these things has potential side effects. So you gotta do. You need to do a benefit risk assessment. Why need to look at the type of pain? That's going going to result. Is it inflammatory pain. If it's inflammatory then and non steroidal anti inflammatory drug is probably the better drug OPIOIDS can block that. But they don't do anything for the inflammation so you may get to force with the end sets and eye inflammation as well as some analgesic. How severe is the pain going to be? Where's the pain coming from is a pain that's associated with the tea or with with the bone or with the Jinja? These are our tissues that respond fairly well to the end sets. If if it's a pain that's coming from inside if it's coming from. Let's say the Sinus or it's coming from internal structures. They don't respond respond as well to end said opioid to probably be a better option regardless of which are the ones you choose in terms of. How severe is ZIP? The more severe I can get better analgesics with Moore paid you'll ever get with. IBM Pro Foot- ACETAMINOPHEN ASPIRIN or a combination. The Nation there are it's because I do. or it's because opioids work three different levels of the pain. Pathway the Anti inflammatories Tories work at one. Maybe two and those are peripheral opioids tend to be more centrally more in the spinal cord and even up into the brain and the higher level structures. So they do and they work in different places sometimes. The best thing is to combine them. I mean this is actually a nice synergistic combination if ya if you get a hydro co down combined with the Or Heidrick Combined with the C with an aspirin you can get the best of both worlds and you don't have to use high doses of either one so that combination is is actually something that was tied a lot when I went to school and I taught in medical school and we taught the physician to same thing. We teach our our dental students. Now that state thing so it's not like well throw Dow's all away 'cause they're Causing US problems today and will embrace these until they start causing us problems and then we'll throw those away and then we'll go back to the older you Kinda referred to that when you talked about the days when we said if people hurt we should be letting them hurt we need to give them opioids Control and then we started to get the abuse in the deaths and and the pendulum swung the other way. And resettle. We shouldn't be using opioids which just use all the end sets and it swings back and forth and back and forth and we just have to use our information we know what these things look like. We know what the side effects look like we. We know what causes the side effects it for just prescribing and sending our patients home and expecting them to figure all this out on their own. Then I don't care what a drug you give him props we've gotta be engaged. We have to be talking. We've got to know what their histories are and then decide which are the most those to procreate drugs or target the ejected and for the background of our patients so you graduated from dental school you went to Ucla. Hey you're sitting in a According to the news a new thirty six million dollar building you made the newspaper. University youtall celebrates breach new thirty six million dollars dental school building Tell us about the new dental school and how was it different than Ucla back in the day so UCLA. Ucla was great and although they don't football's not so good university. Utah's football's better. But anyway it is. It's a different time time. And this new school has given us the opportunity to look at the dentistry at its curriculum. And particularly its relevance to the other primary care providers and comprehensive when talk about comprehensive. Health incompetency care what role does oral health play in that whole discussion and so as dental final score the University of UTAH. We are part of the University of Utah Healthcare System so we were very closely with primary care providers we have several offsite clinics throughout the State of Utah and those clinics for the most part have dentistry and primary care working shoulder to shoulder and so the physician or the nurses bell see something. They'll notice that there's an rural health issue and they'll bring the patients across the hall to us In dentistry or to the hygienic. or we see something in our patients and we could just walk across the hall and take to the medical care providers we were very closely together. And and we're starting to fine nine that not only by working closely together. Do we serve the patient better but we also find that that we complement each other in terms of our medical slash schedule objectives. I don't think I don't think anybody would be surprised. He's looking in the mirror to to realize that the mouth is part of the rest of the body. Unfortunately we sometimes practice as though it is in practice in a silo and we say oh no no no no. We don't want to go anywhere further back in the math. Because that's really not our herb. You that somebody else's are or the Mac. So facial or primary care or pediatrician. Don't WanNa come into the mouth because they feel like. Oh that's totally off base for us. We should be going going there. We should be having these discussions amongst ourselves as to what we could contribute what they can contribute to us and vice versa. And this kind of gets to a study that we had recently we call it The floss steady F- losses enact credential for grant we we got from her sub health restore services administration to study what happens when you provide comprehensive dental care to patients who are being treated for substitutes disorder. So this is kind of the issue that I am referring to. We shouldn't be trading their conditions. There's all these are totally separate not associated with each other by rather you should be treating them as though they're complementing each other and that you can get get better outcomes in both areas if you treat both things together and so as I think most dentists health or health providers know the people that have substance use disorder. Generally many of them have made your oral health problems which AGGRAVA- all the difficulties call the wrestling with as part of their issued deep problems. They're not employed they're unemployed. They have very poor self-confidence they went draw their they're isolated. They feel as though their total failure said there are in total despair. Many of them contemplate things such as suicide. Because they don't see any light at the end of this tunnel and there's no way that they can manage it or that can convert and so they just let their mouths Go untreated some of the drugs. They treat zero Estonia. They do damage to the mouse in. This worsened said that condition. They can't eat a Boston contition. They heard all the time because they've got infections. They got root canals. It needs to be done. They can't sleep at night. So malnourished malnourished terrible self image. They don't have any works socially out social outcasts and a lot of this is coming out of the mouth now and the things that have happened to the mouth and so we thought maybe if we could put these two areas together as part of therapy that you and get better outcomes in trading substance use disorder. So he did that Nazi. This grant grant gave us the wherewithal to do it so he took three hundred. Patients patients. had major SUV problems. They had made your oral health problems as well. Almost half of them were heroin so a really high. I proportional heroin about thirty percent were math. Methamphetamine twenty percent alcoholics about ten percent were marijuana than the rest of them or odds and ends of other kinds of drugs. Very few of them were single drug users. It's unusual unusual to find someone who has a major substance use disorder and they're only focusing on what drought most of them are poly substance abusers but. They had their they had their primary drug until we identified the primary drug so we brought a man took care and this was comprehensive dental and it wasn't just emergencies urgency's I mean we certainly took care of the emergency issues but we wanted to restore their mouths in the same way that any of us going into a dentist office would expect act so they got the full complement. The only thing we would or could it do for these patients was implants but we did everything else. We did restorative. We did we did. We did ended on exceeded all the oral surgery. we did chronic bridge. We did removable. We did did everything that they needed. So at the end of the day after the treatment they walked out of that office in the mouth was back where it should be. We had this great big Humira as they as they could. Walk out of. The clinic was into the waiting room loses big mirror and most of them would stop at the mirror. Once is it. Dental work was done. And just give this great big smile. They would look at the Pierre and see what had happened. the transfiguration that it occurred to them so we thought well this looks like this is really working well so we went to the SUV providers who are trot that were the managing them and providing care for their substance use disorder. Said what what does this look like. In terms of other aspects of issue. I mean they. They look like they're feeling better about themselves when they're coming out after we take care of the oral health piece so they went and they looked at their outcomes assessments assignments and this is when we found a dramatic affected terms of Treatment Outcomes. They stayed in treatment two to three times longer longer. The average treatment duration for major as substance use disorder like heroin abuse. Mental abuse was about three months Matz hundred days. If they're getting competency dental care. It approached the year so wound up dramatically. We found Out that employment went up dramatic rate when they left. They were two to three times more likely to be employed if they had comprehensive comprehensive dental care than they didn't have comprehensive dental care. They were three times more likely to get off their primary drug of abuse. So they you're much more likely to become abstinent and if they had had a history homelessness before they came into treatment if they got comprehensive yes he dental care literally homelessness disappear when they laughed. They left their SUV treatment. They finish the dental care. They had a home. They had a place to go. They did not go back on the streets or under the by ducts so homelessness disappear you. Where did you get the word word floss participants? What what did you say flustered for cutting a lifetime floss facilitating a lifetime of oral health? Sustainability leave for substance use disorder patients and families. That's it I never remember it. That's what I always call it floss but but if you tease those words out it that's kind of what is talking about it's talking about what does it mean. Will you take care of. Their oral health needs. What does it mean as far as their substance substance abuse problem in a long term way in our data suggests that it means a lot? It really helps ins. We're words words that study published in the journal American Dental Association. It's okay July issue about this year. Two Thousand and two thousand Nineteen Yup gotta got it. Yes comprehensive oral care trying to connect the floss term comprehensive oral care improve treatment outcomes a male and female patients with high severity and chronic substance use disorder. It is just such a complex issues in it it it totally is and when I talk to people about this I talked to dental groups and also talked to the Medicaid organizations across cross country. Me One of the outcomes of this because the effects were so dramatic we took them to the state legislates legislature and we. We said we think that if we could provide comprehensive dental care to Medicaid patients who have thought substance substance use disorder issues. They're treated and we couple competency dental care with that through the Medicaid program. We're we're GONNA see the same kinds of outcomes in our medicaid population and we got it through the legislature. Almost unanimously the Medicaid Office. I said yes. Let's do it. The Federal Medicaid Office when we sent a request to have it part of the Federal Medicaid Program. They called us and said we'd never heard of this before you explain this to us as to what you're talking about and we said sure that We invited them to come to the dental the school which show them they came a spend an afternoon with us and we had some gloss patients down in our clinic. We're taking care of that day. We took down down. Introducing the FLOSS patients introduce them to the dental students and they just heard why a positive experiences this was not only for the patients as you're totally changing their self image in their outlook but also to the dental student who had a chance to see they were developing a skill set. Back could turn a person's life completely around. I mean we literally early had stories about individuals who are going to commit suicide until they had an opportunity to have their oral health needs to dress and they did it and one lady. She is an administrative assistant for at the airport. The the mayor's Office of Salt Lake County. I I mean they got these high-profile jobs. They were trained people but they had gotten into drug problems and they distributed away from their skill skill sets and now now the restored the mouth you given them self confidence you given them a good quality of life. They feel like they have the energy not to address the drug abuse issues and they can put that life back together again so it's been a very powerful lesson to our students that this is a place where you can really make a difference in people's lives very interesting data you have there. The chart is a I step house. Self declared a self-declared malls methodology outcome It doesn't seem like this is a very easy research it all so total at the journey. You you've You're twelfth edition of drugs in society. I mean what a commitment I mean. When did the first edition come out? And Will there be a thirteenth addition. Can we make news on dentistry uncensored by announcing the thirteenth edition. Listen well there will be another edition or working on that now but I started working with the Johnson Bar is the publisher assured this is around. Nineteen ninety sewer almost into the thirtieth year of this And it turned out so so I I was in. I was in the field. I've been working in drug abuse. That neurobiology wasn't doing much with dentistry. Because we didn't have a dental school at the University of that time saw. Aw I was in the College of Pharmacy in the School of medicine than in those days. but I got a chance to do this and it works so well. It was so well received that we just doing the next edition to the next edition on the next edition and it sells about twenty thousand copies copies a year and it is used to buy two to three hundred universities across the country as their principal goal taxed in Drug Abuse Drug Abuse in society so it in a way it became a an exercise have really immersing myself in all aspects of drug abuse because as a scientist the only thing I did was I objected. Rats I extracted are took out their brains and I. It narrowed chemistry genetic analysis and looked at the effects of drug abuse. Working with this talk and then later going back to the National Institute on Drug Abuse I had a chance to really see how drug abuse in society interacted in its many many aspects respect the public health piece and that and really set me up for coming back into the dental school and saying you know I could bring these two things together. I can bring my background at drug abuse and dentistry and that's how we got to the paper that we just talked about. Who are we? SEGER is a connection for dentistry industry as we try to deal with these other chronic diseases such as substance use disorder. An hour trying to sort out. Why now what? What is happening here when you take care of persons oral health? The makes their ability to deal with diseases like as you d much more effective an outcomes to become more positive and we should as dentists oral health providers. We should be sitting at the table with the other. Health providers providers wellness providers talking about strategies talking about partnerships. Talking about putting our skill sets together in order to took provide better competency outcomes for patients. So how is this. How is this message? Being being delivered to the new dental students are. It's a new generation. We always hear how different the millennials are than the earlier generations. Like the boomers is this. How is this is pretty complicated message to teach them? It's not that complicated. Because we won we have a really good example in substance use disorder which is an in your face saying nobody questions that is a problem is not a problem because there's so many aspects affects of it where it is a problem and then we can take that as an example all been under served population that has made your oral health challenges and bring them into our dental clinic. which is sort of controlled we have our our the attending our students and then we have our didactic instruction where we can kind of fill in gaps? What they're not learning in clinic they can learn in the classroom astros vice versa and so they can see a comprehensive approach to introducing dam and their skill sets to what it is? They're going to ECOMMERCE wants to be calm when they walk out. This collect dentistry here at the university Utah with DDS degree and they put together a practice. What do I you WanNa look like do? I want to be working in in Hollywood and working on movie stars or my entire career which is kind of Miam- Bishen when I came out of. UCLA AH UCLA was right up there. I actually has a student worked out a lot of movie stars. Not The big ones. But I had a lot of movie stars. I've got. Hey this is my idea of a practice. But I didn't ever work on these patients. The underwritten underserved patients never get that exposure. Were giving that to our students. Now they walk out they say I've got a role to play out here. I mean they wanna make a living K.. Totally understand that but they I also have a skill set. That could turn people's lives around in a way that they never quite understood before so they see real life they see and you can't teach better lessons in real life so when you You guys are very cerebral. I mean you have a DSP ESPN the Dean Wyatt Rory Hume has a DSP HD win. You guys decided to start a dental school in two thousand thirteen Did did you guys feel. There is a need for a new dental school or that you wanted. Some unique selling proposition in a country was so many dental schools. What was the impetus to want to start a new school? I think you hit it right on the now right on the head. We felt that there was something different that we could do this one just because of the lake with the rest of the university. We were embraced by God. The Medical School Pharmacy Nursing and the other health professionals shawls because they fell. There was a role for dentistry to play and quite frankly their healthcare system that was being administered by the university we had very little dentistry. There we had we had a residency program general practice residency program. But that was it and they didn't have the experience of dental students. Interacting with medical students with pharmacy students in nursing students and as we went out and tried to create make these offsite clinics to care for some of these underserved populations. They were doing the same thing from the medical side and so we partnered her and we put clinics together as a partnership instead up. They didn't ours. We did our and we would invite them over for Christmas lunch. Ed Invite us over for Christmas We live together in the same building in the same clemmie and we worked together and so this was an opportunity to change and the model that we think is actually going to be the future much of dentistry as we go down this it's Rhode They call it. They call it Bonding or blending. Where you bland different services in a way that makes sense for wellness but also make fiscal sales? If you talk to Medicaid Medicare talked talked to some of the insurance providers these days They are trying to find ways to to land together a a comprehensive care rather than say have a cancer patient. We know that we're GONNA be treating 'em they know. We know they have oral health problems. So oftentimes at cancercenter percenter will send them to a dentist Danis have your dentist take care of all. Listen and come back and we'll start the cancer treatment on you rather and then sitting down with a dentist and say okay. We're treating this. Cancer is your concerns. Tell us what you think in terms of the oral health piece. What do we need to keep in mind as we radiate or we do surgery hour we give chemotherapy? What sort of oral issue shade we be buying full up so the dentists dentist's is right there with them all the way through the treatment and patient? That's the winner at the end of the day. So if you if you go go to the insurance companies say we provide comprehensive care for this. This cancer patient ended includes all of these things that are important for for wellness. The Price Tag will be this. Whatever that price tag happens to be but it covers all of these and it makes the providers Blan- Glen I think We as the dentist. We know they're on chemotherapy. We know it's GONNA compromise therapeut- system we know that they're paying. The management is GONNA look different. We know they're nutrition's GONNA look different. So fat informs us that we can provide better dentistry for them and vice versa. The patients the winner. The United States has a rich history in dental education. I mean the for the world's first dental school was in Bainbridge the Ohio in eighteen twenty eight now to dental museum. The First Dental College in the world was Baltimore College of Dental Surgery in eighteen forty. So so now it's twenty twenty when we're supposed to be seeing more clearly now in twenty. Twenty and yet Medicaid Medicaid and Medicare her Dentistry is not even part of the human body. I mean I'm do you think the dental schools. It's time that maybe the DDS and DM degrees should go back to the MD degree and they should get on the same train track or is a from eighteen. Twenty eight two twenty twenty. It's almost two hundred years. Two Hundred Years of dentists being on one drag. United Sates has two hundred eleven thousand Americans we have an active license to practice dentistry and over a million have an MD degree. Do you think these two trains will ever get on the same track Iraq. I think I think they will I think that they are. I don't know that it's necessary to think of ourselves as the physicians of the mouth. I mean I have no particular argument against it but I think it's important. That are the dental students. Be trained trained how to do clinical dentistry. I'm a little nervous. If you feel there are those who feel that while we'll let the residency programs. I teach the clinical dentistry piece of this and their undergraduate. We will teach Sam the medicine physician piece of it. I don't think thank were there and I'm not sure that we need to go there. Do we need to give our students an excellent background in in basic science as is in a pathology disease as an Barma College. Yes I think we do because it's important as important to us understand the effects of pathology disease in pharmacology in the mouth as it is to an internal medicine doc or not just Or any other. They're professional or specialists but having said that. I don't know that we need to be training our dentists. How To catcher therapy therapy or need to be training them how to do surgery and removal gallbladder? I'm not sure that's necessary. I I think the dental skills we give clinical dental skills are sufficient and and worthy of being included in the big discussion. Chinook the overall health of the patient. I think that what we need to be doing is one closely and not be afraid of the part of comprehensive health discussions but I think we also need to show that win. We decide is dental. Ever wanted to be a part of Medicare that we can come to the table. Hopefully what the papers like what we've done and others will do and say you know what the literature says it says if we can provide comprehensive dental care to these Medicare patients and they have substance use disorder their response to treatment for the SUV is gonNA be dramatically improved. I personally believe that you'll see the same connection between comprehensive dental care and prediabetes comprehensive dental care and Alzheimer's Disease Comrades Dental Care and cardiovascular disease. I think if you you can give these patients that have these serious major chronic diseases good oral health so that they have good nutrition Russian so that they feel good about themselves so that they feel they have contributions to make still we call quality blythe you give them a good quality of life through their oral health that you'll have a dramatic impact on the rest of their health. And so we go to Medicare and we say hey. This is what we're bringing. We're going to save you money on all these other diseases because they're going to get better faster and you're going to slow down on the deterioration that caused by the disease so we're going to save you money. And even more importantly we're going to help preserve and lengthened the health health. Your patients can have be- we if we have the evidence we have that discussion. Guess what will be part of Medicare we are part artem Medicaid but that varies from state to state so each state makes determination in our state. The dental school the floss program. The other pieces went up to the Medicaid. And not only did we get our Medicaid program both of the state and the federal level. Not only did we get them to to extend coverage dental coverage to Medicaid patients but we also got them to expand Dan comprehensive dental care or patients that have disabilities so disabled patients. So these are people that have diabetes. They have Degenerative diseases they can't work because general and this year they have extended it to the elderly Medicaid so our elderly in the State State of Utah. Get comprehensive dental care as part of their Medicaid package. You look at those together. That's almost half of the Medicaid adult population in the State of Utah. Get the very best. Dental coverage through the Medicaid program. Other states can do the same thing Well I'll tell you what. I'm so glad you came on this show today. This was so informative. I've been wanting to get you on for so long This was just amazing. Dr Glenn Dr Hanson DDS Peachy Professor and Dean University of Utah School of Dentistry. Thank you so much for. We're coming on the show today. Thank you our pleasure. Have a great day take care.

Marijuana pain marijuana National Institute of Drug Abu Ucla cancer heroin aspirin China Utah school of Dentistry University of Utah Drugs and society professor of pharmacology and Britain national institutes of Health National Institute on Drug Dr Hanson DSM DSM
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5:03:00 hr | 2 years ago

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

"Right now. You can get both sprints unlimited plan and the all new Samsung. Galaxy S ten included for just thirty five dollars per month for line for five lines. All you need is approved credit and in eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one Pook fifty dollars a month after twenty to fifty credit applied within two bills of cancer remain unbalanced doing limited basic after six thirty twenty eight thirty dollars per month per line for five lines. With auto pay day to divert ization during addition, speed maximum rose. Restrictions apply. Right now. You can get both sprints unlimited plan and the all new Samsung. Galaxy S included for just thirty five dollars per month per line for five lines. All you need is approved credit ended eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one who fifty dollars a month to twenty two fifty credit applied within two bills earlier remain doing limited basic after six thirty twenty eight thirty two dollars per month per line for five lines. With auto pay data deprioritization, during additions maximums. Here's restrictions apply. And the funniest and book together. So it wasn't hard at all, actually rather slowly rather quickly. And I know Danny did a lot of words having the research where he's supposed to made bachelor statements, but for me, it, it was various a very smooth fun and bring process. And just, you know, a lot of laughs, especially being my father, passing not too long before and working on a memoir, that was very emotional vice, and just nice release, to do something that will make people smile and bring back all the fun. You know, happy moments and inspirational things said about life when you reflect back on his life, the influences in his life. What he went through both professionally as an athlete, and as a person as well. How did he come up with all of this, because it was all very insightful? And it made so much sense. I'm sure from his standpoint, but as we look at it over the long course of many years that people have known about Mohammed Ali, you think about what he has to say it does make sense. You know, it's funny, my father actually a lot of time. A lot of people don't know, this, but he did do a lot of studying and research before we going shows, and he would read a lot, you like to have in our solar. It's a pocket full of only comments comebacks and quotes to say something's came to the top of his mind in the moment. He was very quick, witted and others. He's sort of practice or had set aside that he would tell him advance and sometimes retail over the years, so I think it's a little collection of all of that, you know, he was always in front of the camera. He was always saying how funny and Shuki and, you know, the press could be, and you never know when, you know, when you're going to be asked important questions and questions that we earn outlive, you, you know, his statement and the pressman news like even now, so he did a lot of studying research and look reading, quote, books and putting his witty, come back then. And you know, combs together before even happy out into the world and a lot on a lot of occasions and other times, it would just be the spur of the moment and just off the top of the head. So it's just. Part of my father was very, very quick, witted and funny. Humorous, as you know. And never never had a short for words or something to say or give his opinion. What did you find was the essences of, of his humor because I'm just wondering wearing a, we're all came from. You know, I cannot tell you that because my grandmother, my mama burden polar because she had a little bird knows mama bird had was very sweet and shy and loving and quiet and his father was boisterous and outgoing outspoken and Blache. And I, I wouldn't call them funny, you know, not intentionally my father, just had a natural Schumer about him. I came to earth that way and he came to earth with. Amazing competence within within himself, and which was exceptional especially time he Rupp and, you know, so, and he also was always very, very, very philosophical always thinking thoughts, he felt that he was here to, you know, to do great things in life and thought he had a special purpose and we'd sit outside of a little boy, and look up at the stars and we forgot or angel to tell them ignition in life until that story at times over the years, which was true. And I think that a lot of humor came. Probably just it came in eight with him. I don't know honestly wear. It can't just part of who he was. He was actually a natural comedian just very funny. Even the way we look at him later in life. I mean, you know, he'd be incited, he always say, he seemed trapped inside of his body, because, you know, hey, the Parkinson's, but his eyes were so bright and alive and it'd be moments, but his daughter cross the room and it was like he was inside of there. You know. And just very comical, just naturally just, you know, he was just a funny person who we always laughing lies cracking jokes, and I guess he can that way. One of the other things that I was amazed about, as I look through this book and recollected all the sayings that he had is that none of them was said, in anger, and why I say that is because he grew up in a time that was not very tolerant in this country as far as race relations, but he never had something inside him that made him angry. So when he said something it wasn't to hurt somebody else, and that, that really amazes me it says something about his character. I agree with you. I think that looking at a person, and how they handle the revolt, and how they respond and the pressure. And, and in year and anger. Tells you a lot about the character, and one of the most enduring aspects about on the so many but one of the most enduring affects my thought of kids today was the -bility to go through this world. See the worst and others somehow retain the best and end self and you can watch all the footage ever done on him. And you're never gonna find him actually unless she's promoting fighting be funny. You're never gonna find a click where he's saying negative out of person. He always believed. Or like you said anger. He always believed that being so famous and impressionable that he's influenced people and he just didn't express his opinions about people in a negative way. He never talked bad, about people in never stopped. Why me it was never angry? Nearly even affecting lost, but three and a half years as prime fighting years when he didn't go to the more we stick at his title before the supreme court overturned that you'll never never in his life ever wish to go back and do things differently. He just looks at the blessings. I thought it was part of his his journey here, and he always looked forward. So it was an amazing quality that he had. And it was it was admirable really I love this quote from him. He said, I studied life, I studied people and I'm educated on this. But when it comes to reading, and writing, I'm not I may be illiterate, to, to that point. But when it comes to common sense when it comes to feelings when it comes to love compassion for people than I'm rich. Yeah he was not my father. It's funny because my father, you know, he'd a tough time dyslexic, Eboni, and he had a terrible speller. And he taught himself to read reading the Koran his religious police and just studying stuff. We, we reading things over and over again. And he most people try with map, but my father was not embarrassed by said it to the world and you didn't let it makes him feel like he was any less thing when else he just he, he. No, he take the good with the bad, and that's another quality that he had. That was beautiful. You know, no one's really look and feel bad about himself or down about himself because he wasn't perfect. And he wanted other little kids in other people in the world know that just because you have certain difficulties in life, certain challenges doesn't mean you can't excel to high level in life. You just have to believe in yourself or card could the good with the bad just keep going forward. So it's a message if even send you taught so many lessons I like doing it just living by an example. I think it's one of the reasons people love and it, add Meyer them so much. There's like, there's so few if any heroes in the world, and I mean, he's only fault and not to say, no one's perfect. But he's in public was that he wasn't a faithful man. You know, a lot of the aren't so. Handled amazing. I mean all my siblings are brought together in the summer of out of wedlock children out of wedlock, children habit that he was made you all of us are friends to this day group text all the time all nine of us because he brought us together. So you handled, you know his faults in a certain way that admirable he handled life in that way. And, you know, he shortcomings, he had he just was very open like an open book. He didn't hide anything. You know, does no mysteries to discover them and people are always looking in the press or something to tell him story find something, but he lived his life as an open book, and I think it's one of the reasons people love him so much. He loves people. He loved being Muhammad Ali, you love living life you love being so accessible. You can reach out and touch him. And that was just who he was the human being is so rare and it's, it's, it's very it's missed very very much so. One of the stops in my career in broadcasting was at ABC sports. And I worked for Howard Cosell and the relationship that, that Mohammed had with Howard. I was really something special. I've got a couple of quotes here that's in the book. If I had a lower IQ, I could enjoy your interview, and then he also said Howard, every time you open your mouth, you should be arrested for air pollution and he also said, I have been interviewed by many people, but I enjoyed interviews with Howard, the best. What was it about those two? I think that, you know, just like with any recipe you have to have a writing reading into my father, had such a humorous playful winning personality, and people like how so sale who was quite opposite him very spoke and spoke, very slowly. And deliberately thought about his words, he, I think he just made a great match together and Howard did not take anything personal view. My father's humor and it you know, I think that's really what made it works so well. So that's the contrast and their personality. And the fact that he could take humor, anything, take it personally, and it was fun loving and playful. So you know they were great team. They weren't really something. They really really were. Here's another quote, that I think is spot on, he said, once who made me is me. Right. My father you know, he knew he used to say, and I don't know. I don't think made it in the book, but he used to always say that, you know, he sold his eleven zone did up his own place. So knows you know probably wasn't never had a problem tooting. The horn and saying they thought stayed up like it was and he knew that he made himself. He he was smart. He is wise. Nobody invented him advice on how you should act. We should do it all came from within and followed his own advice. And there's people around him and he knew what, what, what to do what not to do, and, you know, he he's always always watching the world. And, you know, even with gorgeous George the person who he arrest for the famous I started him in bragging. I'm the greatest after he saw gorgeous, George doing it and selling tickets. That's why he says he made his he made himself because all the things about him a little bit Myers. He get on his own the stands. He took the funny and witty humor humor stuff. You know, the skill that he was blocked from God. And, you know, James. Oh. So he knows no one out and discovered him per se, or gave him the recipe you gave him the words it all came from within. So. The other thing too, about him HANA is he liked himself? He was very comfortable within his own skin. And I think this quote in the book probably sums it up best, he said, I'll tell you how I'd like to be remembered as a black man who won the heavyweight title, and who was humorous, and who treated everyone. Right. As a man who never looked down on those who looked up to him, and who helped as many people as he possibly could financially and also in their fight for freedom. Justice and equality. That's powerful yet. His favorite things he my father, loved all people. But he really really wanted to help uplift blacks in America, and he wanted to love himself to good about who they were to be able to look up to someone that makes them feel proud that, that showed them that they were just as great and you know, whenever asked about his legacy how he wants to be a little bit. It's one of the two things he always said. So I think that he's accomplished that and, and he and he and he knew it. And, and it's just yeah it's very inspirational. They're beautiful. He was such an amazing spirit and human being that. I mean everyone that loves and everyone loves someone in Mars someone that I think my father was starting just out of this world. I always telling that he was eighth one of the world if he's still mazing. You know, you're the eighth wonder of his world daddy. Yeah. We've got about forty five seconds left. And now I wanna share just one more, quote and get a quick response from you. God test me every day that I wake up with my disease, and I passed the test every time my father never lived in shadow of Parkinson's. He didn't think about it every day. And I'm not kidding me. When I say that one of my favorite stories to tell that really summit my father for people, and it might be hawking in the Spanish. But like I said didn't look back. He didn't feel sorry for himself. He be Mohammed Ali joint life. She woke up one day, and she told, you know, my father, this is a few years past that, somebody that worked in the Mohammed Ali center, had just found the parking busy wasn't hitting the well. And she said, you know, this is my stepmother, Lonnie, she said, you know, and having you have to do with it, and he said, you know, I don't know. I just I don't think about it much. I just get up and I live every day, and he looked at it and says the people. No, I haven't. No. You haven't Muhammad. He's oh, I don't think about it, and you don't let the kitchen what's for breakfast. So that's just who my father was. I want to thank you. This is an outstanding book, we're gonna make it a selection of the month on the sports byline, colder. It's called leeann Ali why he said what he said when he said, you are welcome here, anytime. And I know you have a memoir that's coming out, and I want you to come back and sit with me, and we'll talk about your dad about your life, about your family back. Wonderful different you that we'll see. Her Lee with us. The daughter of Mohammed Ali, we continue on America's sports talk show. Remember in the beginning, when you first started to build a life for you and your family. You never imagined. It would come to this instead of living, your dreams, you're living with debt. In fact, it's smothering. You now there's a way you can take back control with one simple call. 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If you want more information on blue visit online at WWW dot du dot com. Now available at select the big five stores near you. This is America's sports talk show sports. Byline USA. Here's ron. That's going to wrap up this hour sports byline. We spent some enjoyable time with HANA Elaine, the daughter of Mohammed Ali, the man Sports Illustrated called the greatest athlete of the twentieth century. And she has a wonderful book. And trust me on this one, it's a wonderful book about all the sayings that Ali had over his life, and one of them was, I am the greatest ain't got no quarrel with them. Viet Cong also float like a butterfly sting like a bee and your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see, Sal berry was with us, as well for the segment we call the collector's corner, and ROY eisenhart was here. We call his segment inside angle. I'm Ron bar hanging around. We've got more for you on America's sports talk show. Hi skin dealer. Join us every weekend on sports byline for outdoor. Guy's radio radio for the sportsman's I've style. We bring the best of the great outdoors to your radio. Dial every Saturday morning at seven AM Pacific here on sports byline is forced byline dot com. Tom. You're listening to the heartland news feed radio network broadcasting live twenty percent of. Hurtling newsbeat. This is the liberty your daily source for Liberty News and activists updates produced in partnership with SNL, S news and listeners, like you online at liberty, beat dot news dot news. I'm mic Merle. Your latest edition. Other liberty gold is trading at one thousand three hundred forty one dollars silver at fifteen dollars in bitcoin is turning around eight thousand forty one dollars. Today's prices are brought to you by ino scale. Take with manage go out looking for a safe secure way to store, your important files online, let Inose Gail handle it for you. Their high availability cloud servers are the perfect solution for clients needing one or more secure scalable. Servers with built in hardware fell over protection for details. See them online. It didn't know scale dot net in the news, the federal government accountability office has issued an update to 2016 report on the use of facial recognition, the takeaway, which they also Shay. Air during a congressional house oversight committee hearing, the FBI now has access to six hundred forty one million photos including driver's license, and I d photos, but it still refuses to assess the accuracy of it systems activists bills reports that the facial analysis comparison and evaluation services unit not only has access to epi is next generation at indication Facebook, ignition database of nearly thirty million civil and criminal mugshot though, does it also has access to the State Department's visa and passport databases. The FBI has done little in the last three years to make sure that it search results are accurate, according to the new report, they'll liberty is sponsored in part by brave botanical. High-quality crate him in CBD at reasonable prices with excellent customer service. Brave botanical is activist owned hen mission driven and believes so strongly in the power of crate him. They're giving it away for free. Just go to free ounce of creative dot com for a free crate him delivered to your door. Just pay shipping. That's free. Crate him dot com. This is the latest addition of the liberty beat by us online at liberty beat dot news and doesn't LS dot news. Your news now continues metropolitan police in London have arrested for teenagers involved in a reprehensible attack on two women who were left bloodied and hospitalized after being taunted for their sexuality. They might unleash your born the four miles age fifteen and eighteen or being questioned on suspicion of robbery and aggravated grievous bodily harm or severe assault at the Cording to a statement by the police Melanie gaming at a twenty eight year old Ryanair stewardess from Uruguay shared a photo on Facebook of herself. And her girlfriend, Chris, after they were assaulted Bank group of men who began shouting at them in throwing coins. The couple had just gone on a date in Camden, and will returning home early on may thirtieth when the four men began demanding they kiss each other in front of them when the to refuse to share an intimate moment for the entertainment of the hooligans, the young men and teens beat them leaving them with Syria. Facial injuries before also stealing their belongings. Hate crimes on me. Mass transportation network of the UK have doubled over the past five years, according to British transport police data. In what would be the first of its kind, Louisiana woman allegedly died from an overdose after vaping, a large amount of cannabis oil, the mind unleashed, citing the New Orleans advocate reports at the otherwise healthy thirty nine year old collapsed and died in her place apartment in February due to high levels of THC. The main psychoactive compound him cannabis, that's according to Saint John Baptist Peres corner Christie money. They woman had healthy organs, and no symptoms of illness, or elevated, traces of alcohol and drugs in her body. Well THC can cause heart palpitations and extreme anxiety and some years, the federally funded National Institute of drug abuse has said that no recorded deaths have been attributable to marijuana overdose. Various experts have also cast doubt on the corners claims describing his conclusion as highly unlikely, a former senior policy advisor at the White House office of national drug control policy noted that if such overdoses were. Possible. The growing amounts of cannabis consumption in the US would have like wise risen support for the liberty comes from the conscious resistance network featuring videos news reports and articles from spiritual anarchist perspective, experience, the conscious resistance at the conscious resistance dot com. How would you like to have your business teacher'd on the liberty beat you can just in an Email to liberty beat at dot news for details? This is the liberty beat produced in partnership with SNL S news in listeners like you. The liberty is online at liberty beat dot news and SNL, S dot news. I'm McMurdo reporting for the liberty reminding you spread liberty with a smile. The with a smile. Surgeon general warns teams. The cinnamon challenge is not for pussies Taylor swift is now dating to Watertown boat. And a middle aged funeral director Biza flashy, red hearse, we pity, your pathetic dependence on this for your weekly news. But here we go. Anyway. This is the onion week in review, a study released this week by the national institutes of health confirmed that for the twenty fifth straight year wolf attacks remain the leading cause of death in the United States. The human health agencies findings confirm that being viciously killed by a ravenous wolf claimed the lives of over eight hundred thousand Americans last year alone with researchers, adding that one person in the United States dies every forty seconds from violent wolf attack. Mortality rate associated with macaque outstripped the death polls cancer stroke and chronic respiratory to these people should know that anyone vote. Is the onion news network? This is free talk live, eight fifty five four fifty free. That's eight five five four five zero three seven three three. That's our told our toll free number. And the we tonight is by self Chris. And Chris number two just to keep things confusing. And the nobody formerly known as rich fall confusing named I know I was trying to find another rich to join us. But I we. Phone. Exactly. We, we would have adapted and we would have came up with something. But Chris is usually this seat should have three Chris's on of the three Christmas. That's good. There should be having Scott. We've got get don't we? We, we have. I think, well, well, there's Ron Paul's freaking giant. I can't remember his name isn't his name, Chris. Okay, this is terrible. But Chris lawless think that's Christopher lawless. We molly. Molly. We could certainly bring in a third Chris me, we may not want to. Yeah. I think that's fair. We should be trying to achieve. No. But what we, we do have a couple of people that it gets a little confusing. At one point market said you know where do you have? Chris, chris. Wade. And he's, he's always on the air. So maybe you could come up with a non diploma. I should come up with my own name, and he was as like like sergeant something, I'm like. I was a specialist like that's a whole different type of rank in the military. It just doesn't have a real ring to it, though, specialist Rhys. I just don't get it. And somebody else who doesn't get it is a coroner in Louisiana now. It's finally happened rich, I've been warning you for years. Boy, a Louisiana corner claims. The first case of THC overdose. The first death due to smoking pot and overdue cooking it. Yes. Oh. Louisiana coroner claims, first case of THC overdose death. Others doubt her findings. Imagine doubt her findings to you. Yeah. I do too would be sui generis. I mean, unless you like passed out while wearing a gas mask, Bong, I guess that's possible. I'm not, but the thing is tonight my knowledge of gas mask bonds. But my knowledge of the mix is extent. Mine may might date back to when I was in high school. My father unfortunately onto hardware store, so I had access to all sorts of devices to connect one thing to another. Oh, yes. He might it was a pharmacist. Okay. And so, I learned to bend glass, tubing very artistic bugs out of it. Yeah. But that's even in that case. I mean, why haven't we seen wire at the streets littered with dead potheads I guess that's what I'm wondering. Well, I mean, how much would you have to smoke because, you know, I mean there have been times when it looked like I was attempting suicide through pure smoke inhalation. I live. And I, I mean, if he really managed to do it. My hat's off to him for the enhancement food, and, and the, the strength that it must have taken for him to crawl on his belly across that last bowl. Into, you know, Chris, Chris, it's gotta be it's gotta be to gateway drug now. That's gotta be the answer, right? System that caused the death not really the let's find it sold. This comes to us from news. For a, that's a NBC affiliate in Louisiana. WBZ TV corner in Louisiana claims. Based on autopsy results woman in the state could be could be the first person to die from THC overdose. The main ingredient in cannabis now. I know the answer we they gave it to us and breakfast club, Harry ago cannot hold. They smoke. What it is. Awesome. Greedy. And in of cannabis marijuana, the Saint John's, the Saint John the Baptist corner told the New Orleans advocate. The thirty nine year old woman showed she was killed by an excess of THC the corner claims that there were no other signs of disease or intoxication. The could have led to the death other than THC, and it could be the first death as a result of overdosing on the compound, the blood level, Komi skeptical. But I if you take too much of something it is possible to die. Like if you drink too much water, it's possible to die. Right. Just just have a hard time believing that unless somebody's drowning, you know, it really happens, right? See there was a woman who killed herself. There is a radio contest. Yes. Drinking water and a woman died as a result of water poisoning. It was you're giving me the eye rolling. Look. This is true. Talk about rich. They were giving away a Nintendo. We yeah. The contest was who could hold their we the longest while drinking water. And she she hung in there. And she ended up getting violently ill and ended up dying. There was a big. It was a big thing in radio circles. Okay. Yeah. The radio show was sued and I believe they were held liable. I think so, so these types of really obscure odd things do occur. And as I was thinking about marijuana that I keep coming back to, as, if you're smoking it. Okay, you smoke at joint. You smoke it to your face. And then you gotta roll another one smoke that when to your face roll other one in smoke that to your face the question is after your penultimate joint before passing out. Do you have the wherewithal to learn to roll another joint and belief is that you will? Forget how to smoke weed before you smoke your fatal puff. You just won't know out to do it. You look at the weird and you look at the bay bridge, you'll go. I don't know what to do with any of these things. Right. That's the part that's really crazy. I'm gonna skip to another article, which has a little bit more on this, this comes to us from the New Orleans advocate. That's what was referencing in the first one, every so often, the US claim emerges that there's been a first ever death from a marijuana overdose. The latest claim comes from the place. Saint John, the Baptist parish corner, Christie monta get said last week that toxicology results for thirty nine year old place woman who died in February showed she was killed by an excess of mount of THC. The main ingredient in marijuana, quote it looks like it was all THC because their autopsy showed no physical disease, or afflictions that were the cause of death. There is nothing else identified in the toxicology Noah. Other drugs. No alcohol. There is nothing else. The woman's name was not released. So I find that. Pretty questionable. Well, I couldn't find anything else that would cause death. The only thing I found was we'd to record of causing hero times, because you haven't found it, you haven't discovered it doesn't necessarily mean that the only thing you did find caused the quality right logic logic, fails. So what sort of things can kill somebody will insulin can kill somebody. And if you don't find the pinprick, you might not know that they that they had an excess of insulin because it's a it exists naturally in the body. There are a number of, of cuisines certainly that will dissipate. Yeah. There's a million things and there are. Maybe may, and I'm not a cardiologists. I am not a medical doctor in any way perform, and I'm certainly not a coroner deal. Only thing I am doing is adding, my voice to the many doubting voices to say that this was THC, which is a substance, a compound found in marijuana that's been studied off and on whether the federal government was allowing it or not, it's been studied off and on for fifty years. And no indications any at any point that this was this is a lethal compound. Yeah. I mean, if a bail of falls on, you, you're might die, don't do, it's probably Leslie than h two so it certainly less lethal than aspirin. Seventeen aspirin as cat Williams said that's going to be your last headache. Monta gut had served as Saint, John corner since nineteen Eighty-eight believes this could be an index case in medicine, perhaps, the first death on record solely as a result of THE expose. Since some drug researchers and experts are skeptical, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say us in studio. We're also skeptical. Eight fifty five four fifty three. What do you think did the devils lettuce finally take its first victim? It was the one armed Roman. Eight fifty five four fifty free. I want to hear from you. This is free. Talk live. Why did you move to the Shire? I moved here to the Shire because there's other people around who take liberty just as seriously, as I do I moved to the Shire, because I saw videos of people challenging authority and thought that I could get support myself. It called to me, like do this right now? I wanted to be around people like me who got it. And once I got here, I knew there was no else I wanted to be, I've always wanted to change the world. So I moved to the Shire, to join people who were actually working towards doing the same thing. The people here are awesome loving and positive. It was for the adventure. And for the feeling of something important is happening here. And I just wanted to come to sort of be part of that visit Shire, society dot com to read and sign the Shire, society declaration, and learn the reasons why if you love liberty you should immigrate to the Shire. Plus connect with others via the forum at Shire society. Ready dot com. That's Shire, society dot com. The new fourth edition of healing our world, the compassion of libertarianism. We'll take your understanding of liberty to a deeper level, and has ever thirteen hundred updated references new cartoons and a forward by Dr Ron Paul with discounts for multiple book purchases the fourth edition of healing. Our world is a great gift for the liberals pragmatists, environmentalists and Christians in your life. Who think libertarianism is cold hearted? Get yours today at healing dot freetalklive dot com and use promo code F T L for a five dollar discount, the L, R, N dot FM social media channels have been revamped. 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And independent, what the Free State project is managing to do, though, is to put their money where their mouth physically getting up across the country and saying, that's go someplace, and let's demonstrate the power of these ideas. There's a lot of kind of philosophy that surrounds liberty. There's a lot of thinking about it and talking about it, but here in New Hampshire. People are doing one hundred one reasons. Liberty Lipson New Hampshire a documentary by Free State project early movers. Watch it free at one one reasons. Film dot com. One, oh one reasons. Film dot com. 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And of course, it's covered by the bit cot, no government license sell for one one, because your friends won't shoot you when you're in trouble without the government, who would build the emergency services, you and sell for one one get it today and get cell four one one dot com. Your to the newest episode of free talk live, presented by Seiko CA. Visit us online at freetalklive dot com. This is free talk live, eight fifty five four fifty free. That's eight five five four five zero three seven three three in studio with Chris and Chris number two and nobody formerly known as Rich Paul. You don't have to call yourself. Christopher too. You could say also cry. I'll say Chris number one. Okay. That's fair enough. I there's no there's no ranking here. Microsoft convention, you can be Chris ninety eight and he can be Chris two thousand three zero in one. Yes, yes, Chris XP, and Chris ninety eight no man where you born in where you born. I'm like, oh, S too. I mean, if you grab a maturity level. To you're not as old as me. I was born in sixty I predate dos. I pre dates CPM predate all sorts of language. Any chance to explore. Unix. I mean that's interesting. That was the seventies I feel like you're, you're, you're. Well, actually, I can't say this on the way older than I've heard the newest to remember how clean everything was before they invented dirt. Everything you could eat off anything. Now. I'm trying to think of what s is when I was, you know, when I was at my eighteen twenty twenty five in that, that age. I mean it was nothing. I mean, the IBM PC just come out apple had got their first couple is out. But the MAC wasn't a thing yet. Yeah. But without going down that rabbit hole of depressing myself with my advancing years, do want to tell you about bitcoin dot com. Bitcoin dot com. Is your premier source for everything? Bitcoin cash related bitcoin dot com. Can help you choose a bitcoin cash wallet by bitcoin cash and show. You where you can spend your bitcoin cash. You can also read the latest news or engage with the community on the forums. Learn more at bitcoin dot com. That's bitcoin dot com. Yeah. I yeah. It's an interesting way to think of think of our age is operating systems. But, you know, I mean growing up the home PC was just like it was kind of a new thing when I was growing up. So do you think the latest versions are like bloated and inefficient? Every. In some ways. But yeah, I mean, I remember having a Texas Instruments, TI ninety nine that was early computer that we had at home. Ours was all, you know, it was stuff that was designed to come into your house here, S, eighties and stuff like that. So the trash eighty that was one computer programming. And, and then the Commodores, and the Atari is, you know, would die first computer with the Commodore pet. How about you? It was. Well, when you say computer that's, that's kinda hard tears, eighty was the first one that we had, I guess would call that a computer. That was a general what it what did you have before that, that was maybe a computer lake, I had an Atari four hundred before that. But I didn't consider it real stuff came later. And I did have a Tari four hundred zero eight hundreds and twelve hundred excels and things like that. And you could you could write you could progress you those things in basic. Absolutely. Yeah. See, that's, that's what I loved. I started. I was just playing games on it. But the games were written in basic. So like I found that I could change the game. And it was like, oh, this is. So much fun with the come by Meru. Right. And it would probably slaughtered that pronunciation s close enough. I knew what you were talking about the, the idea of programming, you know, things in basic when your computer was so limited, I think, opened up the world to a lot of people like if you, you know you slap down, like the, you know, the DR blow graphics, engine in front of some kid who loves to play video games. What's he gonna do? I mean, where do you start when you're just trying to do is make change anything? He might well, make version of doom where all of the all of the monsters are Barney. That was one of the first things like that, that I played where somebody made in. Yes. Somebody done Ahmad or added a new skin or modified his skin. Yeah, maybe it's through modification that, that they get to do this. We're going to go back and talk about weed again, because who doesn't like weed? Well, no hands go up. He doesn't like weed, and I'm not I'm not much of a fairly smoke. What do you refrain from answering the question every two or three years? I feel the urge to try it again. Rebel call, but yeah, I'm really out there. But again, you know he's a blast. What don't we? Yeah. How could I not be we're talking about this story comes to out of Louisiana where a Christie monta gut who is the coroner at Saint John? The Baptist parish is claiming that a thirty nine year old place woman died of marijuana, basically died of an overdose of THC in her logic is well, we couldn't find anything else. There was nothing indicating any other disease. But we did find THC in her system air, go, it must be marijuana that killed her or to me, like it should be considered a late onset SIDS very late. Out freeze. A former senior policy advisor at the White House opposite of national drug control policy said that with the vast amounts of marijuana consumed in the US every year. And he's not kidding. It's hard to imagine that more overdose deaths wouldn't be occurring. THC was toxic at consumable levels quote. We know from really good survey data that Americans use cannabis products, billions of times a year, collectively and not millions of. Right. Not millions of times, but billions of times, unquote says Humphries that's a billion with a B baby with a b quotes. So that means that if the risk of death was wondering two million, we would have a couple thousand cannabis overdose deaths, a year up freeze also said, it's not uncommon for coroners to see drug in the system, and with no other sign of what have may cause an. Event leading to death must conclude that the drug was the cause quote, there is some imperfection in these kinds of assessments. I would agree. And we are going to like to just give that credit as a master of understatement. I think that guy has the British humor down. Yeah. There you go. We are going to go to discord where I believe it's Ilian is on the line. You on the phone and Gonzales, I don't know. Are you there? Okay. What's on your mind? Okay. So I'm calling from west night. Okay. And the basically the book talking about tweet. Okay. Marijuana. And always, yeah. It's supposed to be hating us because she if we in the puck like in the in the in a punk children living. You see them smoking weed. So sheltered in Russia smoke weed now slow sleeping. Leading here to the United States. They should come and smoke it here they should. Thank you for your call. The story continues, the National Institute of drug abuse a federal government research institute said there has never been an adult death attributed to THC. So what do you think? I mean, you've got the government. Unbelievable. You got the federal government on one side, defending this drug saying, we've never had a case, presented to us that it was clear that was THE in yet, you have this corner in Louisiana was this chick vaccinated took a question. Eight fifty five or fifty free. This is for talk live. If you're looking for work, the person, you are applying to is probably so swamped with applicants that he or she is tough to reach. So call early in the day before eight AM before the palace guards arrive, you'll need your prospects direct number. And here's a sneaky way to get it suppose the companies may number is five five five five thousand usually call five five five five zero one two. When someone says good morning. Pam johnson. You should innocently say oops. Somebody here must have written this down wrong. I was calling for Tom Frederick. What's his direct number? If the very next thing, you hear isn't Pam giving you Tom's number. It may be. Good morning, Tom Frederick. For more tips for job seekers and getting better results in all your day to day communication hit survival speech dot com. I'm Holland Cooke. Free talk live. You cannot say our moving in four hundred gone with HBO Ron Carter solo by death, because I am tired of people flown removed from me. I think we should hang. As a capital crime in books is like a ticket. Misdemeanor for book on that with. On netflix. They just put them all out there all at once. So it encourages more binge-watching and, and it's just a kind of a different way to releasing. So what how do you deal with that with your proposed law? Dan? America. I don't think. Pass it to find out what supreme court interpreted aiding xactly free talk live seven nights a week from seven to ten eastern live on the liberty radio network at L. R N dot FM. Are you cryptocurrency advocate? The crypto tip is the ideal outreach tool to help new people discover crypto currency. It's a printable business-card-sized tip that you can give to service providers preferably. 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To the latest episode of free talk live, presented by Seiko CA. I downloaded for free at freetalklive dot com. This is free talk live, eight fifty five four fifty free. That's our toll free number eight five five, four five zero three seven three three. You can also hit us up on discord and discord is of very cool app. You can load on your phone loaded on your laptop on your P C on your MacIntosh doesn't matter. All you need is that application, your high speed internet connection and a decent microphone. And you will sound like you're right here in the studio with us dial up modem, what were your dial up modem now? That's basically what I have at fo at home, and I can't use it really. Do you ever DFL? Yes. In New Hampshire DSL is still thing. And I've got it. My God, I heard develop them when I worked for IBM, and it was a basically, if you were on it was developed for a Bank. And if you were on a website, you could push a call key call CS our button. Okay. And a customer service Representative would be assigned to you. And their version of Netscape would be sinked with the page you're looking at the data that you're seeing like if the reforms on the on the page that, that data would be mirrored on their page. And you would also be able to have a voice conversation with the CSR and this all rat, always designed to run on a thirty six k modem, and it worked just fine because we use good voice compression. It's too bad that isn't around anymore. Thirty three k thirty three point six k. Thirty three point six. It's like forty four. Yeah. I am the king of old technology trivial week. All I totally. I'd missed it. But I would've picked up if I had actually been paying attention. Absolutely. Yeah. It is. A crazy time nearly as crazy as people insinuating that marijuana causes people to die this story and we're we're reading from this is out of a limousine. What paper are we at the New Orleans advocate? And this is a story where coroner is alleging that this woman smoked, a whole lot of pot or ingested, a whole lot of THC somehow and died. And she is claiming this is likely the first death attributable to marijuana in Louisiana. At least monta guts, report appears to be the first to attributed death to THC alone. According to State Department of health spokesman, Robert Johansen, all of their deaths. He has recorded with THC mentioned involve a combination with some other drug reports of death due to THC tend to pop up across the US every couple of years, one notable claim came from Colorado in two thousand seventeen where. Eleven month old boy died after his inflamed, heart went into cardiac arrest headlines were made across the US, because the case study said the baby's death may vote may be been associated with marijuana exposure. The study's authors were quick to note of that didn't mean the baby died just because he was around marijuana. Even though the THC in his system seemed, the best explanation for why his heart was inflamed. Montague doesn't suggest THC was partially responsible for the death in the place case. That's interesting because marijuana an anti inflammatory agent. Right. And for a child to have an inflamed heart that seems counterintuitive it really does. Yeah. Yeah. It's they're blaming. They're blaming marijuana for defective some sort of defective bodily function basically, you know, whether it'd be the heart or something else. And it's not really the marijuana that was the problem. It was there. Bishen that was the problem and yeah, maybe marijuana had an effect, but they probably would have died from something else as well like water or who knows. I'm thinking the lady must've been vaping, this THC oil and got got a high level inner system. And it made her stop breathing like a respiratory failure. He said, it's the level was yes, we're going to get to that. But it's weird because they're in the story, they just changed. The Christie is a female name to a he but maybe it is used as a male name. I'm not sure Monica said the THC level inner system likely came through vaping device with highly concentrated THC oil toxicology report said the woman had eight point four nanograms per milliliter in her blood, so eight point four nanogram per milliliter. It's all sorts of metric there. Oh, it's a voodoo metrics, a lot is it, I know there's no scale, and I don't think anybody well, actually this goes on to say this. Impaired driving can occur with as little as two nanograms of THC per milliliter going to at least one study. And so she had four basically four times the amount needed to cause impairment, in a driver, so, so that still doesn't sound that the thing is to impair a driver eve be long before you'll impera driver, unless they're smoking, well, that are deriving you're probably going to make that driver want to do anything, but go go out and get in a car and do something. So, you know, even that levels of levels of THC that impaired driving almost never seen in the wild and that's important because nobody's getting convicted of that in Colorado, Jerry's aren't buying the impairment that they are there. Nola. Fine juries left and right. And that's good. I mean, the only thing I can think of is that there was a defective to face, but to play marijuana, then doesn't really make any sense because it was defective device somehow. Elected too much into them or something, right? But right like vaping and, you know, I, I know people I know people around here that do vape THC oils or cannabis oils, and things like that. It's a very efficient way. I would think of in Justin THC and getting a buzz but I, I get down to this number of two nanograms, Cam produce impairment, and it may be four. I mean, everybody's different. It's gonna hit everyone differently. I want to know what studies led them to believe the two nanograms per milliliter is the magic number where drivers become impaired. This is as ridiculous. This statement is as ridiculous as saying that everybody who blows a point zero eight on a Breathalyzer is impaired -absolutely. It's a made up number at pulled out of somebody's, but yeah, I mean, I was following a drunk, I the other day and he was clearly on the road like he was able to drive. There was no problem. Driving, even though he was impaired, right? And how could you tell he was impaired weaving back? Weaving back and forth. The line was driving a little slower. But hey he's on the road. Did you find yourself? Like secretly rooting for him. You got this. I'm with you. Go. Go go. Yeah. This is the whole thing. It's these are all hypothetical numbers, and, like I said, and then for them to allege the THC anything over two nanograms is going to create an impaired driver. I realize the state this, this group of people feel that they need to come up with a solid number that they can then enforce their laws on us. It's it's not the way it should be it. This is this is, is insane as DUI laws. But I would say that's more insane. Yeah. And that's how comes across to me because I don't I don't think there's going to be a lot of driving among the two stone to drive that, but please don't smoke behind the wheel because, you know that that's just an awful plan. I'm going to go a little bit further and I'm going to say you know if you feel that you are truly impaired. If you if you will, anytime you think you're paired don't drive exactly. Is there is there a statistically any idea like what percentage of people even dry behind the wheel, like that's a good point? Have the number of drivers dropped in Colorado. Right. And, and I wanted to the difference between the number of people driving TLC and their system because he teach. Tender Lovin kid, teach in their system, and actually being affected by. Right. You know, there's there's, there's a clear difference. It stays in your system for like fourteen days. Right. It something like that. It's a fat saw longer than that. I was in jail for thirty one days one time, and they, they released me on bond but they said the one thing you get do is smoke weed and we're going to be testing you. So my probation officer had tested before I was released thirty one days in jail, and I still pissed thirty. Eight fifty five four fifty free. What's your experience? Have you ever driven under the influence of marijuana? Do you think it's okay, do you think it should be treated harshly g believed that this lady died from marijuana poisoning? Eight fifty five four fifty free. This is free talk is spreading the message of liberty cryptocurrency and peace around the globe worth two dollars per month to you, as you may already know in addition to our internet feed, L Orrin dot FM broadcast on free to air, satellite across north and Central America as well as sub Saharan Africa. And we've been vailable on satellite for free. Twenty four seven since twenty ten the Laura on FM free to air, satellite signal is reaching some of the most oppressive regimes in the world. And there's no doubt our ideas are making an impact you can learn more about the channels impact by watching the three minute video at fund dot L, R, N dot FM. If you'd like to help free minds globally with our ideas of liberty cryptocurrency and peace. You. 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Talked live, eight, fifty five fifty three that's toll-free number eight five five four five zero three seven three three and you operate retail business. Are you looking for a solution to how to how do you accept bitcoin? This sounds like it would be complicated, but it's not it's never been easier. Thank to thank you, any pay dog global there is no paperwork, no approval process. Nothing needed to open a count of you already have a tablet at your cash. Register you're almost done to sign up at any pay dog global drop your personal crypto wallet address in the setup page and then load the app. That's it. You're accepting cryptocurrencies like bitcoin. Bitcoin cash dash at your store. Get started now at any pay dog logo. That's any pay dot global. That's what we use it. Our store brought one a one local goods. We just used it today to charge. Somebody for something that they purchased. And I, I love to see that. I love to see people out, actually spending their crypto currencies as opposed to just hold onto him. My church takes for donations. Good man. I think everybody in town, actually, is that's a business. Anyway. It certainly seems like that. And Chrissy your business does a lot in. Crypto has historically. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we don't we're not a brick and mortar retail Elliot. We're in an internet, but yeah, yeah, I think dot com. We saw computers and accessories and tech stuff computers and computer, excess re's. We. Say computers. Peripherals accessories should say it that way you'll go viral. Computer computers, says. But I love what you guys do and your philosophy. I is it all your products are open source hardware? I mean you guys actually look at what a machines Baid of and try to determine whether this is something that could be potentially dangerous, because it's got flaws or it's got closed source software, and, yeah, I mean, from somebody might smoke seventeen computers die from a scary respective. We certainly go to the extreme, but there's a lot of reasons to be concerned about the, the software. That's running on computer. There's code available for it because basically that's what they hide all of back doors. Got any kind of security issues, but it's not even just that, like, even somebody who's not necessarily concerned about backdoors so much. It's still we're not necessarily links garbage concerned about back door because back can be exploited not only by government but by a hacker. It's true. So there's nobody who's immune from that you can be, you know, clearing this, the driven snow and still get back door. Some people will tell you that they don't they're not concerned if the government has access to their computer and can spy on them and stuff. But what I'm saying is as long as the whole exists. Anybody can plug it right? It could be a riot or stand that what you're saying. The Russian mafia exploring your hard drive. I think there is the point that I think more scared of the US government than I am of the Russian mafia, no offense rushing. The I respect pros but, you know, they've never targeted me directly. So it's for that reason I, I've never had reason to fear them, but the US government targets made repeatedly. So I'm SC. Scared of them, you and the us, okay? In this room have a different operational type security little different. Yeah. I mean so what we're looking for what we need is going to be different than your average, your average is our needs is, they just need to keep them, our off the computer and so, but the problem is once they pick us off. You know, there have to be people left to run the revolution. And, you know, we need, you know, people the, the revolution, if and when it comes will be an information war, and in order to win an information war, you have to have a better more honest network than they do because the with the victory condition is to obtain enough truth. So my whole thing was, was once people understand how much, how much effort though that our government goes through to find out everything they can about them, once they can track you no matter where you go. That will finally wake people up. No. Then Edward Snowden came out. Did exactly that. And people still asleep. Yeah. Exactly. People don't feel. They have a reason to fear the government yet. But why did government build this capability up because they're gonna give you reason to figure them? I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think people have should have. They do have reason to fear the government. They just don't know it most. Oh, yes. If you're, you're right, most people, you're absolutely right. Yeah. I think there are some people who know it because they have been victims of the government, more so than others. They've been targeted by you know, basically bureaucracies and the needle in those Baraka Christie's, whereas other people are just targeted not so much the rebel directly. But indirectly through taxation and things of that nature. Yeah. So you know they'll complain about it. But it's not quite the same thing as being thrown in jail cell. I think it's going to happen. I think there will be some program that will be unpaid. Palatable to a large number of people. I don't know what it is. I don't know what they're going to do think there's, though about the harms that are there already suffering, because they understand that they're that they're losing income, and they're the problems are actually caused by the socialism, which is supporting them if they take one hundred dollars from you and they give you back. I don't know sixty six dollars. What you have less money to support yourself. I got a refund. Yeah. But you know they have right. Criminalizing people because the, the, the game was spelled out by an rand. And this is why she's a she's, she's a profit, okay? She said, we don't pass these laws to be obeyed. We pass them to be broken because no one can rule a nation of free men, you can only rule criminals. So if you're society, doesn't produce enough criminals, you make them you make so many things illegal that I can't turn. Around without breaking one of your laws, and then you cash in on the guilt and the fear, and I screwed up the last couple. That was part from at look. Absolutely. And that is an idea. There's, there's been a number of studies that show that the average person. Commits three felonies per day not crimes not misdemeanors. Three felonies that there is a criminal act on the book somewhere. And if you want a really fun read over to Twitter pull up a crime day, and they will illustrate the most ridiculous things that are crimes, you know, like you know how many this is this is one that just got rolled back. But the government made it a crime to put not enough perfect cherries in a frozen cherry pie. A certain percentage always had to be perfect. They had a percentage of, of cherries that could be frozen and could be, you know, slightly marred. But if you violated that you just committed a felony, there's another. Another. There's a lot more common things that people do like the labels on cans of certain types of products that are in your cleaning cabinet, if you miss if you put those on and you don't use it. Right. That's phoning too. Right. So, and that can be very simple because who doesn't use Coca Cola to clean parts. I mean, that's an awfully will use now that is not technically tech technically illegal, but it's if it is an off label use if you use, for example, kitchen, spray to relocate something in your shop kitchen cleaning agent that's off label use, and it can be legal under federal law. Have you ever seen Turkey or ham Turkey in a grocery store? No. Be seen Turkey ham. Probably yeah. You've seen Turkey ham, different companies make that would think so. But you, it's a it's a felony sorta thing I've created a product and label it as ham Turkey. You can call it Turkey ham, but it's against federal law to what. Islet ham Turkey. Oh, maybe that's what I should do it for fest. Maybe I should sell illegal foods like ham, Turkey and pies with too many cherries in our. Are you allowed to think about these things, and you're not allowed to do them when you're on probation or? Well, I'm going to go by the belief that any law, which is repugnant to the constitution is no lied all. So you can't break and unconstitutional. Eight fifty five four fifty free. Yeah, it's, it's just ridiculous. And like I said, again, go to Twitter crime day, and you will be constantly amazed and, and humored by some of the things that our government has come up with to, to threaten you with, and that's, that's the thing I gotta say that the look on your face, what I said that about delight all was high. I think if my attorney had hired you to, to portray her feeling. That statement, it would have been exactly that. And that was a beautiful thing. I'm hungry for ham Turkey Turkey ham, which can legally say, oh, yeah. Turkey ham ham Turkey jerky ham. That's all we can sell sell almond milk, because that's been outlawed in some places against a lot of calls something almond milk, because you don't milk the almonds, apparently. And that's what. Jokes there. Hey, there's got to be a lot more. We're going to keep talking about silly laws because silly laws are fun to talk about eight fifty five four fifty free. This is free talk live. This is a special alert for business owners consultants coaches, folks planning retirement. Entrepreneurs and anyone who has saving and investing to build a financial future. You're likely aware that financial privacy for most people has recently died a miserable death. And let's face it without privacy. There really is no security. Is there bankrupt governments and banks on the verge of collapse are perhaps the biggest threat to your financial future? Today, the White House law. Club recognizes this and has been working diligently to provide safe, secure and productive tools to ensure your privacy, your financial security and your future financial wellbeing. Despite the catastrophes, which many people fear are looming ahead of us. Find out more with a variety of free videos on the YouTube channel for lighthouse law club. Just search YouTube for lighthouse law club and secure your future. Today. I'm a little obsessed with my magic mud several years ago. I met Jessica Mon, the founder and CEO of my magic bud. And I don't even know my teeth were coffee stained a week's worth of use convinced me. Now I use it every three or four days, it's clinically proven to whiten teeth, and I think it cleans better to my magic mud's available at most local health food stores, sprouts, natural, grocers CVS. Walmart's natural beauty, but I can get it for you for twenty percent off with coupon code F, T L twenty at my magic, mud dot com. FTA twenty magic. My dot com, L dot FM is proud to announce our official listening apps for Android, and IOS devices now, you can easily tune into our streams anywhere anytime on your smartphone or tablet. Just visit Apstar L ran FM or search for ELA and FM and the Android or apple app stores. Please download rate is five stars. Then show the link on your social media, and let your friends and family know how you're listening to rent FM download it now free app. Sta element. Where the rubber always meet through drink. Actually, I'm not even sure what that means. Radio network. Hot news feed dot com. This is the liberty your daily source for Liberty News and activists updates produced in partnership, with as an S news and listeners like you online. Liberty beat dot news dot news. I'm mic Merle with your latest edition. Other liberty gold is trading at one thousand three hundred forty one dollars silver at fifteen dollars in bitcoin is trading around eight thousand forty one dollars. Today's prices are brought to you by ino scale take off with manage go out looking for a safe secure way to store, your important files online, let Enos Gail handle it for you. Their high availability cloud servers are the perfect solution for clients needing one or more secure scalable. Servers with built in hardware fell over protection for details. See them online it. Oh, scale dot net in the news, the federal government accountability office has issued an update to its twenty sixteen report on the FBI's use of facial recognition, the takeaway, which they also shared during a congrats. House oversight committee hearing, the FBI now has access to six hundred forty one million photos including driver's license, and I d- does, but it still refuses to assess the accuracy of it systems activists bills reports that the facial analysis comparison evaluation services unit not only has access to epi is next generation at indication face recognition database of nearly thirty million civil and criminal mugshot though, does it also has access to the State Department's visa and passport databases. The FBI has done little in the last three years to make sure that it search results are accurate, according to the new report, the liberty is sponsored in part by brave botanical 's high-quality, crate him in CBD at reasonable prices with excellent, customer service rave botanical is activist owned and mission driven and believes so strongly in the power of crate him. They're giving it away for free. Just go to free ounce of creative dot com for a free crate him delivered to your door just pay. Shipping. That's free. Crate him dot com. This is the latest edition of the liberty beat by us online. Liberty dot news. And doesn't LS dot news. Your news now continues metropolitan police in London. Have arrested fourteen agers involved in reprehensible attack on two women who were left bloodied and hospitalized after being taunted for their sexuality the mind, unleash reports the form, ELS age fifteen eighteen or being questioned on suspicion of robbery and aggravated grievous bodily harm or severe assault at the Cording to a statement by the police Melanie gaming at a twenty eight year old Ryanair stewardess from Uruguay shared a photo on Facebook of herself. And her girlfriend, Chris, after they were assaulted Bank group of men who began shouting at them in throwing coins. The couple had just gone on a date in Camden, and will returning home early on may thirtieth when the four men began demanding they kiss each other in front of them when the to refuse to share an intimate moment for the entertainment of the hooligans. The young men and teens beat them leaving them with serious facial injuries before also stealing their belongings, hate crimes on the mass transportation network of the UK have doubled over the past five years, according to British transport police data. In what would be the first of its kind, a Louisiana woman allegedly died from TAC, overdose after vaping, a large amount of cannabis oil, the mind unleased, citing the New Orleans advocate reports at the otherwise healthy thirty nine year old collapsed and died in her place apartment in February due to high levels of THC, the main psychoactive compound in cannabis, that's according to Saint John Baptist Peres corner Christie money. They woman had healthy organs, and no symptoms of illness, or elevated, traces of alcohol and drugs in her body, while THC can cause heart palpitations, and extreme anxiety and some users, the federally funded National Institute of drug abuse has said that no recorded deaths have been attributable to marijuana overdose. Various experts have also cast doubt on the corners claims describing his conclusion as highly unlikely, a former senior policy advisor at the White House office of national drug control policy noted that if such overdoses poss-. Possible the growing amounts of cannabis consumption in the US would have likewise, risen support for the liberty comes from the conscious resistance network. Featuring videos news reports articles from a spiritual anarchist perspective, experience the conscious resistance at the conscious resistance dot com. How would you like to have your business on the liberty beat? You can just into Email the liberty beat at dot news for details. This is the liberty beat produced in partnership with SNL, S news and listeners like you. The liberty is online at liberty beat dot news, S dot news. I'm McMurdo reporting for the liberty reminding you spread liberty with a smile. Frustrated with his increased workload and a litany of interpersonal problems CG software project manager. William garstin brought a list of grievances Thursday to his supervisor Todd Watkins, an utterly powerless office functionary with no actual ability to resolve any problems. Oh, no, no, no. I'm really, really glad that you're bringing this to news has great the fifteen minute interaction, which was taken seriously by both parties involved Garsten, laying out a series of work related issues. He's had recently. Absolutely, none of which what has even the slightest thority to address to be bothering stuff Todd. I just I've reached a point where I was out on the this is important, we're gonna sort all this out sources added that throughout the conversation. What face continually nodded his head and repeatedly assured Garsten that his problems would be considered a top priority, despite the fact that he lacked, the necessary clout to foster any change whatsoever within the company. The onion news network. Free. This is free talk live, eight fifty five four fifty free. That's eight five five four five zero three seven three three here for our number two. We do three hours of radio every night, three hundred sixty five days a year because we love it. And this is an open show. Open phone show that means you can call in, if you don't like what we're talking about lately. We've been talking about a woman who allegedly died of marijuana overdose. According to Saint, John, the Baptist parish coroner Christie, Monte, Montague. And I, I guess that's how her name is pronounced and we're all skeptical as our people in lots of other government agencies which is refreshing to hear that they're actually looking at this will the same skepticism. We are. But I do wanna tell you about crypto. Wire crypto wire is pretty dang cool. We use it here at free talk live. Are you trying to write early? Use it. What's that? Are we using it because it's affected? Are you trying to reach the crypto market or perhaps you wanna spread mass awareness of your crypto technology either way you need a communications company that specializes in the field, leveraging thirty five different brands part of the investor brand network and more than five thousand downstream distribution partners, crypt? Assi crypto currency, wire combines the power specialization with mass market reach with their help, you can start connecting with crypto friendly, journalists, and more than one point six million followers. Their commitment is to get the most is possible on your big news while it's fresh domestic international. They can reach fifty six different countries. And also have translation services of vailable, even of your company is an important relevant news maker, you need someone that. Allies in the field to get your message heard cryptocurrency wear dot com. We've used them here free talk live. That's cryptocurrency word dot com. So back to this insane story, again, Christie Montague, who is the coroner in Saint John? The Baptist parish. Made this allegation. We've got people with, you know, the White House people from the national drug control policy offices. These are not people that I would expect to agree with me on something like marijuana or intoxication or death by sup in that everybody seems to feel is a relatively safe drug. They have not attributed at the federal level, a single death due to tetrahydrocannabinol THC, the ingredient in marijuana that gets you high. And they're, they're trying hard to change that. But they're gonna have to show me more on this case. Yeah. And it it's partially due to my ignorance. I don't know what a safe blood level of TA wiz. I just know we've never found fatally unsafe. Listen, listen, even if this is even if it can kill people. It's still wondering. It's insignificant. It's not something to worry about or so much more likely to get killed in some other way than smoking. It's just I would be so sad if we had to go from zero to one death. I mean, I would still gonna make you know, I would still put up a parody of the marijuana signed clicking over from zero to one deaths with aspirin below it at millions. And, and, you know, right. Called this incest in, I think is the name of the company and maybe I mispronounced it because this company was a cesspool, and these people were peddlers of fennel, okay? And they just got convicted. Yes. Well, it re I remember and I looked it up. It was the same company that I called six months ago to complain because they donated half a mil. Million dollars to keep marijuana illegal in some state at I was mad at them. And I ask them at the time, are you afraid of losing market share because opiates desk, do drop by twenty five percent when marijuana's legalized, and of course, they got huffy hung up on me. I lot in the stream of things that I want to take 'em bridge, too, and Dino, tilted against I, I lost track of it. Yeah. I was I was gonna pull up a book, I would highly recommend if anybody is interested in the, in one of the ways in some of the ways that they're finding out how effective medically assisted treatment is in treating opioid addiction. The book is called dope, sick dealers doctors and the drug company that addicted Americans by Beth Macy. I just finished fast me because one of the reasons that I was selling weed was because some of my prophet was going so that when people said, hey, man, I'm trying to hit kick heroin, and it's killing me. I could say here smoke. Some weed with me. Yeah. Okay. And come back, anytime and smoke with me for free. And if I know you're trying to kick I will smoke with you. Right. And you know. They should asked. I hope that we. The thing is, and this is why this story infuriates me it is an effort by some people to, to paint marijuana as something. It is not, you know, people have been you know, you've read this headline. Somebody's somebody, you know, is set it, you know, it's just a plant it grows. You don't even have to try to grow pot yet, throw some seeds down, and half of them are gonna accidents grow on their own. It's that easy to grow really is. But they're trying it's always been a part of human life. It has. But we're, we're still reverting back to the same tired trope that started in the nineteen thirties that God forbid you smoke, marijuana, you're gonna wanna day, jazz musicians and have sex with quote, Nick rose, unquote. And I say quoted, I'll tell us that was a quote that was introduced into the federal record when these idiots were testifying in the thirties before congress. And I'll tell you what from July eighth of nineteen eighty seven which was my. Sobriety date in I decided to smoke weed again. You know, after I turned forty which was in two thousand and nine I never stopped wanting to have sex with negroes and jazz musicians. In some cases, not all of them, but it's never changed. His it has nothing to do with the weed. There's just cue people out there of all, races, and musical taste. Where we've got stone calling in from New Hampshire stone. You're on free talk live. What's on your mind? Hey guys, just wanted to call in and discuss the festivities coming up in a I guess, just over a week. Great though, fast for fist. We have many folk fest fork, you guys. You guys we spent time you probably remember me, I would hope but I was gonna talk about forecast. It's yes it is. Okay. But so it's one of the most unique places like the way of the future. Hopefully is what I would hope the electric unicycles something that I've been writing the past few festivals is one of the unique things that you don't really see anywhere else. Nowhere else have been have. I seen so many electric unicycle riders. Also, the I guess, the segue the smaller segues. I mean there anyway, just wanted to comment that, it's, you know, it's exciting for you, and y'all and let everyone knows it's an amazing time the way of the future, these unicycle things. What, what, what Richard asking you sell them. Can you provide rich place to guy electric unicycle? Oh, that's funny. You say that because I had a well, the solo wheel actually, no, I had a swag, roller was the first one ahead and that costs like about eight or nine hundred I think, or no don't costs three hundred. Okay. Of. You want me to say, let's words. That's cool. So so are people actually using these things on, on the sidewalks and things like that in bigger cities, or, or is this sort of still kind of a real niche thing? That's what I'm saying. It's, it's relatively initiating. If mostly is like a lot of cities have the scooters, which is kind of like a really inferior sort of product. Right. So, like I said, the swagger, my first electric unicycle he's actually had to heels, but they rolled together little more stable than the unicycle, but it's only about ten miles per hour. So I've upgraded got now goes about. Our channel very cool. Hey, stone for rent, I'll take we hope to see up at pork fester at four best, eight fifty five four fifty free. We're going to get back into the tail end of the story, but it's interesting where they estimate how many marijuana cigarettes. It'll take to kill ya on free talk live. We're bringing people to the ideas of liberty every day from wrestling superstars like plen- Jacobs. You guys really are having an impact. Like I said, a lot of where I am now is due to listening to free talk live. You change my mind on some very important issues years ago to random people tuning in on the radio. I'm stuck in the left right paradigm by her and your show by chance on Saturday night from there. I went on join the freese day project in become an flier. So I mean that's really the reason why am is because I know that if it wasn't for you guys being on as you are. I never would have found the ideas of liberty. Your ample directly change more lives by getting free talk live in front of people looking for talk radio online and on the air, when you amp free talk live. You get perks like access to the ample Facebook group and an podcast, visit amp dot freetalklive dot com. There are basically two types of advertising direct response, branding radios, great for direct response with its low cost listener ratio. 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It's quick and easy to customize your feeds at feeds dot freetalklive dot com. That's feeds dot freetalklive dot com. The Free State project has reached its goal of twenty thousand liberty lovers who've pledged to move to New Hampshire and get active to achieve liberty in our lifetime, perhaps you're trying to figure out what part of New Hampshire should be your destination. If so, consider keen, you'll find more than one hundred fifty reasons to move to keen at move free. Keen dot com. Keen is famous for its historic, publicity generating activism, as well as being the Liberty Media capital of the world. It's home to freaking dot com. New Hampshire's destination for liberty activism news and opinion for years, we've been compiling over one hundred fifty reasons to move to keen at move dot free, keen dot com, where you'll learn about some of what's happening here and what makes keen, a great place to live. If you love liberty, you'll probably enjoy anywhere you end up in the Shire, but do your due diligence. I, please visit move free. Keen dot com for the full list of over one hundred fifty reasons to. Move to Keene. That's move dot free. Keen dot com. Ilar dot FM now has a dischord discord is a free text and voice chat platform. And we now have our own server with a bunch of channels at discord, L, R, N dot FM. You can join other listeners as they chat about various things during our live shows, or anytime day, or night, discord, softwares available cross platform, so you can have it on whatever device, you want, and take your chats anywhere. Join our discord at discord dot L. R N dot FM. That's discord dot L. R N dot FM. What do you shop for that you could otherwise by at Amazon pretty much everything, right? Amazon has competitive pricing, and they deliver and that's a big. Plus, if you could plan ahead and you're shopping. Would you be interested in saving up to thirty three percent? There's a catch. You have to do your shopping in bitcoin. But imagine those savings it's like a huge raise. All you have to do is go to save it purse dot com. We've saved thousands and you can, too. Plan ahead and save save at purse dot com. Now, more of the freshest episode free talk live presented by Seiko CA. I listen online at freetalklive dot com. This is free talk live, eight fifty five four fifty free. That's our toll free number. That's free is in freedom. Eight five five four five zero three seven three three. It's me in studio. Chris Christopher one and the nobody formerly known as Rich Paul. There we go. So you get three of us in our second hour tonight, three three three hosts in one. Our second segment of our second hour. So. We, we've been talking about this insanity coming out of Louisiana, which is basically trying to allege according to one corner that a woman died from marijuana. THC ingestion. And, and she has all sorts of theories like how she was getting this. He says it was likely through vaping device with highly concentrated THC oil. Talks about in impairment numbers, which are simply made up and they go on to talk about a couple things here while there's not a specific threshold considered by experts to be a lethal dose, based on his research, the full who's a specialist. They talk about earlier in the article estimates that any threshold would likely fall between one hundred and a thousand times, higher than the THC level found in the la- place. Woman's blood. Has has a right. It was a insignificant dosage. Yeah. Past estimates have suggested that a person would need to smoke more than how many joints to reach Pathet, potentially lethal. Talk city nine Chris, you have to give one guess. I have no idea thousand higher. I think you would have to roll a single joint the size of a telephone pole in strap your face to it. Paul. I am looking for a number of joints. What is your guest? We have one thousand I said that was low I would say twenty thousand. I don't know how you do this past estimates suggested that a person would need to smoke more than twenty thousand joints to reach a potentially lethal. TA. You gave answer. Rich knows. I don't know what's floating around in my brain or where it came from all I do is take pieces of information and synthesize them. And I'm trying to wilder we'll build a worldview out of this in the world is trying to kill me. So have been an input along the way that you may have heard that number four high. Well, if heard kinda been on hundreds of shows, somebody may have set it to, you know, but, you know, I try to look up sources at the time. So I remember the right numbers in either case you did guests the number. That at least this article uses still, there's no way to be sure how much THC was in the women's system when she died. The full said, I has by the time in autopsy was done the THC concentration which falls quickly certainly gone down marijuana continues to have a schedule one designation by the federal at the federal level. Meaning it has no, quote current accepted, medical use on, quote, according to the federal government. Even though numerous states have moved to legalize it for medicinal uses or for recreation Louisiana's recently taken steps towards allowing marijuana for medicinal uses starting after former governor Bobby Jindal signed a Bill in two thousand fifteen which created a framework for distribution of medical marijuana so honesty. I think I need to correct. That one one thing, though, my first guest was ninety one and that was wrong. But I remembered that from somewhere else that was this dude, I know claim to smoke ninety one joints and he didn't die, and I couldn't attested smoke that many joints, but he did look pretty lively to me. So I'm sure he didn't die. There you go. We're going to go to the phones where we've got Dave calling in from New York. Dave, you're on free talk live. What's on your mind? Guys. How're you doing? Dave hudson. Dave's not here. Hudson. Hudson valley guy, right? Yeah. All right. So what's up tonight? Aren't he'd help paying my rent? Rich greg. Here's a quarter call someone who cares. There you go. That's your first answer. What else can we do for you? I need help paying my rent because went up an extra six dollars, and I really, you know, I I've been trying to reach out to different people for help, like doctors, nurses, and other, what I suggest you do bro. Have you ever read the second treatise on government by bass the by not bass yet? But by John Locke. No, I haven't no go, go read chapter five that could you. Chapter five of that, whatever, yeah. Talks about your right to homestead land. Okay. And you're. Could you mute him? Hold on. Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead. Dave. So rich offered you some advice by reading this book, you may find some ways the will help you with your rent. Are you still there? I need someone. Misselling to send me tash you the six dollars on four forty two dollars. I don't care. Call someone who. Drop this guy might wanna take a look at a homeless shelter. If you can't afford to rent, if you. Job. Why don't you do something useful? Capable loose things day where you right now. I have signs all over my car. Windows that says unemployed. Please hire me, I go out every day, hoping somebody will read that we will take a look at my car and called me up and say, oh, hey, touch. Touch what where are you? Upstate New York. Upstate New York go someplace else. You know, the first thing he probably wanted to remove the word unemployed, because it doesn't have a good kind of tation. There's a reason you're unemployed and putting signs on your car. Makes you look like the bum. There are ways to do these things. You know what? The Home Depot. Dressed lesson lesson. Hey, how me you called into my show? My host doesn't know how to moot mute you? But that's okay. He's outta mute. You. All right, Dave. You still there. We don't have any advice and you keep interrupting me. We're not gonna send you money. I mean, there weren't all sorts of will, tell me why you're a value to me, and I'll tell you how much I value you. Hold on. Let's do this. Let's give Dave thirty seconds to sell wipe random people should send day from poughkeepsie. Is that correct? Are you picking your toes in poughkeepsie? Okay. You got thirty seconds over my car windows says. This is not how the games. That's not how you do it. Dave, do it and do it that way. Hold on. I eight by head to meet him again, Dave. When you come back. I'm going to start the clock. You got thirty seconds to explain why anybody should send you anything on your markets that go. Okay. Well, some people wanna work hard for liberal is he told us a joke? I would've said as set a dollar pay. Bitcoin cash. I get a bit could that would be extravagant. Oh my gosh. Now that guy's been calling in for years, years and years. And he's been asking for money for years, and years and years dog about how he has nobody money and he can't afford us rent and all this other stuff. I just. Troll is got a funny, one would hope but. I think that he's just playing the socialists. I'm a little skeptical. Eight fifty five four fifty free. Trump is such a fan of the second amendment and such a staunch defender. He wants to make another gun device illegal. We're going to talk about that eight fifty five four fifty three. This is Michael dean from the freedom teens, I've run website since nineteen ninety six have used over a dozen web hosts in that time address, hosting dot com. Is the only one that hasn't broken my heart toast up time in service is stellar and their DOS, big ation is the best I've seen that's important. Because if you tell the truth in this world, you'll ruffle feathers and some people will try dirty tricks to silence your voice, no matter what the haters hit us with Agar's hosting keeps our websites online. If you have a mission critical commercial presence or world changing activism site, you cannot tolerate any skulduggery so go with Agra's hosting dot com, have a WordPress, blog site, but you're not satisfied with performance up time or just what? Raw hosting wanna pay with bitcoin. Eggers hosting specializes in high performance hosting with personalized service. Go to agress hosting dot com, click on the button that says get hosted that's agress hosting dot com. We have some good news the indictments against ROY, celebrate in the district of Maryland were dismissed with prejudice. Meaning they can never be refiled. This is especially good, because those indictments contain the only charge ever made that rolls engaged in murder-for-hire. This was a serious allegation at roles. Oprah denies it was never prosecuted or ruled on by jury, but was trumpeted by the federal government and the media as if it were proven fact, the Maryland, court held these indictments for almost five years, poisoning, Ross's case, and leaving him under a cloud of unproven allegations, as explained enrolls appeal to the supreme court. The fact that the judge used these allegations to give her al-sadr Coney sentence of double life without parole. Violated his sixth amendment, right to a jury trial. Judges required to issue sentences based on convictions decided by a jury not unproven allegations. Never even charged trial, although this is a positive development that dropped indictment will not set rolls free. Now a presidential pardon is Ross his only hope of freedom. Sign the petition at free Ross dot org, free roles. Dot org. Looking for a great real estate investment considering Hampshire, which is ground zero for the liberty movement, your first call should be tomorrow. Worden from porcupine real estate. He's more than just a real estate agent easier, New Hampshire concierge. Where are the best places to live? Do you want farm city, the burbs or forest, do you wanna do plex multifamily buildings? So that renter's pay your mortgage, their homes in all price ranges in New Hampshire and Mark and help with financing to invest in liberty and property. Mark warden can help. Calm. The L dot FM social media channels have been revamped. We've eliminated Facebook and focused on other platforms like Twitter and mastodon the decentralized, alternative to Twitter on our count. You'll find post from multiple L, R, N dot FM show hosts together in one place. Follow us on Twitter at Twitter dot L, our end on FM, or better, yet, moved to the decentralized mastered on social media platform at toot dot L. R N dot FM. T O, OT dot L are in FM. 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Don't forget to share the link on social media that's fund dot L. R N dot FM. Your to, to the newest episode of free talk live, presented by Seiko CA, I visit us online at freetalklive dot com. Feels free talk live. Eight fifty five four fifty three that's eight five five four five zero three seven three three. I wanna tell you about edge wallet edge while it is a crypto currency wallet. It is made for us and version for Android. You can buy sell, and securely hold your crypto currencies. It's user controlled so you own and you control your money. There's support for bitcoin. Bitcoin cash theory, tokens, minero ripple stellar many, many more veteran team. It's been building since twenty fourteen and they wanna help you secure your freedom. Find out more at edge dot app that edge dot app in studio. Chris, Chris, and rich or Chris, Chris one and nobody is these guys are introducing themselves or possibly Chris ninety eight Chris X P, and the artist formerly known as. Oh, as Rich Paul. Our names are lesion. How about Chris to release two point four or something like that, or even earlier? Oh, I'm like Rich Paul five point. Oh I bet I was like a nerd and then I was a pot dealer, and then I was recovering addict, and I was a. Well, there is some cocaine in between you don't go straight from pot dealer at it. And, and a lot of alcohol, also, I loved alcohol, what I was a kid and alcohol, doesn't make me smarter and kids, I make light of cocaine and alcohol use but those two are dangerous drugs. And you know, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie to you about weed. But I'm not gonna lie to you about cocaine and or hall either and those are bad drugs. That's why the producers don't want we legal. Yeah, you know what else is bad when you're president continues to violate the constitution. It looks like he's going to do it yet again. But fortunately, this time we don't have a bomb in office. So we don't have to worry about them coming, after our guns or anything like that, right. Well, except silencers next because one of those is used in the news highlighted it. That's right. We did have a silencer. Trump says he's seriously looking at banning gun silencers. According to this comes to us from Bloomberg President, Donald Trump says he's seriously going to take a look at Lund, banning gun silencers after last week's mass shooting in Virginia gun silencers can make gun silencers out of your hand or something, right? Like, oh, well. Tayo can use a potato you use to Wieder bottle. Does that mean like potatoes are illegal now? We're going to be illegal, rob anything that can go around the barrel, sits of fixed to the barrel. If reveal gun lies going to apply. So you would have to do something to the potato to make it a fixable to the barrel. So if you, you know, once you've put stuck at potato on your gun, you have discard that potato and select a new one. And if you're going to carry potatoes in your car with your gun, you might want to cover carry some olive oil and a camp stove, okay? Because then you have all the fixings to go out and shoot some pheasant and make yourself. Okay. I'm gonna throw off your the whole thing. You're painting here and saying you should also have condoms, you should always have condoms. Right, right. Right. But hear me out when you are in danger of getting something in. In the barrel of the gun condom is a very easy thing to slip over the India, rifle and protect it. So if you're out in the woods, and it's raining condoms, a good thing to have. I know. So if you're right. Does sex please. Condom. But yes, you could place a condom over your barrel and then slided into a potato and now you have a silencer another thing on so sexy. This is a real thing is and they're they been trying to get these band, but it's basically a coupling device that will screw onto the end of like a are fifteen standard thread in there. And then on the other end, it has the standard threading of a oil filter, and this is a filter silencer the idea that you could use a oil filter or a fuel-filter fill it up with a little bit of oil. And that will deaden the sound as, as it goes out and technological things like that can make a huge difference in quality like quality of life, because I don't I didn't walk around wearing hearing protection when I carried a three fifty seven which I did for twelve years. And if I had to shoot in self defense, I might well of lost my hearing even worse than I have one of the reasons. I love being on radio is the only time I can hear you clearly. And so the I don't want that any and partially that's from firing guns without hearing protection shooting in the woods, so silencers might have saved a big punk of my hearing. And there have been bills before congress to enact a safe, basically a law that would remove, so let's talk about the legality of silence. Silence such thing as a silencer. Let's wrap using this word is it makes it less nerve deadening Lee loud, right? Ukwa fire or something that modifies his noise, but doesn't actually lower it possible. But where we are today you can legally own, you can buy and own a suppressor for, you know, a handgun for rifle doesn't matter state, right? They can legally be made what this these are covered under the national firearms act was passed in nineteen thirty three nineteen thirty four back in the thirties. But they added this as an as a taxable item so they couldn't just outlaw these by taxable item. You don't meet just mean they made it more expensive. You have to buy a tax stamp for two hundred dollars. Right. That's exactly correct. So you can go and apply to purchase a, a suppressor the power to tax is the power to destroy right? And, but they realized that, that was the only way they could get around the secondment was to call this thing attack. So if you pay the two hundred dollars tax and received the stamp, then you can wait about six months until all the paperwork done at at bat. The bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms and explosives. And you will finally be able to go to the gun shop and pick up your suppressor taxation is theft and requiring attacks on guns. Is your second amendment actually, like, say you have to get tax stamp back? Where does it just say you have to pay for the view? You have to change your address with them. They have to track where it is all the time. It's contributed like a machine gun. It is a physical stamp if that your question stamp. Counterfeits. That's a good question. I'm not get into this story who nobody got time for that. Don't do the crime do the time. Here's what Trump says. Well, I'd like to think about it. Unquote. Trump said in an interview with Pierce Morgan on itv's, good morning Britain, quote, I'm gonna get. I'm going to seriously look at that unquote. While Trump said he didn't quote love on quote the idea of a ban. He was also unhappy to see the frequency and severity of mass shootings in the US. So quick. Somebody name me, another mass shooting that involved a suppressor on a rifle or handgun isn't this? The first anyone I have never heard of it before. Yeah. I think it's I think for a mass shooting this probably occurs as frequently as tax with bump stock. Why would you need happened? Exactly once. Why would you need a suppressor on a mass shooting? You're shooting up presumably, some sort of roomful on your intent is to terrorize certainly not to save anybody's hearing. Right. So yeah, there's a big question as to accept tonight is really painful, what had happened today? Watch our understand what happens when you shoot a gun in a closed room and then consider that it's actually hurting. You which makes it a lot worse. Right. Does it actually like, you know, was it actually used or do they just have it or what was the what's the story behind? I have not followed the store, didn't look into a real closely one or two, curb at a guy went into a municipal office down in somewhere, close to Virginia Beach. Virginia me went in. He was an employee of the town where the city he went in with a suppressed rifle are suppressed handgun any began killing people. I guess, maybe his thought was, I can go longer, if nobody hears that I'm shooting and I'll be able to kill more people. I don't know what would have given it away that those things don't silence. They suppress still out absolutely eight fifty five four fifty free. What do you think should Donald Trump just basically banned guns one part at a time till we get the whole thing done? I wanna hear from you. This is free. Talk. Live and you thought things couldn't get more infantile aesthetically, insulting than Furby cash or Katy Perry. Then you obviously haven't met twenty two year old Koran IKA the latest and most horrid talent breath, pop monstrosity, the music industry, ever sadistically forced down the American public's collective throat. She's here with us in the studio right now. Now tells Cronica. How did you first decide that you wanted to be the cipher through, which the cynicism of a morally bankrupt industry is channelled? I just do what I do know what I'm saying. Psych people just love my. Right. You are in the middle of your sold out damn girl tour. That's right. Which is a heinous slap in the face to the English language, and we'll also travel to forty seven cities sapping the Alexa, every young person along. That's right. Lighten. 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Remember not everyone uses Facebook, new people are signing up for the Shire society forum every month, so drop in and say Hello at. Forum dot Shire, society dot com. Thank to the latest episode of free talk live, presented by Seiko CA. I download it for free at freetalklive dot com. This is free talk live, eight fifty five four fifty three that's freeze and freedom. That's our toll free number eight five five, four five zero three seven three three can call in and join the fun, we've been talking about Trump, this staunch defender of your second amendment protected rights is looking to band guns silencers, because my God, one of those was used in a mass shooting, and through been your fake news. Mr trump. Bragging, my brain trying to come up with another example of, of silence or, or suppressor to be more accurate suppressor has been used in any kind of mass shooting or even murder. It's happened because they call things mass shootings that they wouldn't have called mass shootings twenty years ago. That's how they make it appear. Like they're more mass shootings than there used to be down to, like, four people. Yeah. They keep lowering the number in this case, I think there's been twelve people that had died, and I'm gonna go ahead and concede that I'm going to call that. A mass shooting. Somebody walks into a workplace that was absolutely it and shoots. Twelve people dead then. Yeah. Okay. You might my threshold. Yeah. Well, the, the thing is, and this is why I do believe that we should disarm the bureaucrats and disarm the police because they are the most likely to wrongly kill somebody out there. There is no group out there. More democrat, and demographically likely to also forty percent spousal abuse abuse rate. Can't point that out enough. No, you can't. We're gonna go to Vernon New Orleans, Vernon. You're on free talk live. What's on your mind? I just wanted to point out what I heard the reason is. Silence. Or so he had worked there for many, many years. Not sure how many and he was intimately familiar with the workplace, and they said that he used the silence or so that he wouldn't tick off, you know, tip off other people that the shooting was going on. And he was able to maximize you met up kills he was able to have because he's the silencer, and that's why it, it went to up to three fours. I think, and so I think you all were asking in the last segment. What, what, what happened and I that's what I heard. So you may be correct. And but what I don't understand. I don't understand how this happened in the first place because I also read that this is a gun free zone. I mean, our guns automatically rendered useless. Let's put. Let's put this in perspective, the reason for the right to keep in bear arms. So we can resist the government if we have to now if you look at Nazi Germany, they were a nation of sixty million people at the outset of World War, Two, let's say they killed twelve million in the out in the in the holocaust. Okay. And that's twenty percent. So we're nation of three hundred million people, and so twenty percent of that would be one hundred fifty million. I'm okay with them taking away my gun rights as long as they don't take away my tank rights at Apia craft guns. We need anti aircraft gun rank of these those these mad idiots half. Plemmons. Exactly. I know you are advocates of gun rights, but I'm still trying to round my head around this silence. Or so let's just say that, that as human beings. What, what good is it to or not to have the silence? The only the only two facts, I think you'll have set tonight. Was that it it? Sure, right. It's your freedom, and it, it doesn't hurt your hearing. Are there any other reasons hearing thing is like one of the best realize that's the one that all step back to the DeVos scouts have been trying for years to get this law passed for safe hearing because they want to put them on the little twenty twos that they go out and teach riflery? Yeah. They want these things. It's a good thing to protect your hearing living. Second, you're not gonna hope and Kerry and have a silence on the end of of your gun. Right. Really? Sure about that. I would love to have a gun with a built in silencer, and they do make such threats under threat to actually put a silence on it starts finger to have a gun with a built in. So let me put it this way. What is it about a silencer that makes it makes gun more deadly? I'm asking you. I guess going back to what happened with this gnashing. Nobody, you know, nobody else really hear it going on. Room when what is suppressed weapon was fired. I have not okay shows go try it. Yeah. So, so here between fours if I was on the third floor, when I hear it on the first floor. No, would you hear a knife? They're much cloud. Yeah. Honestly. I'm not advocating that it should or shouldn't be banned. I don't try to understand your reasoning not wanting it to be bad. Okay. So this is it and what it comes down to two for me, it's not a gun issue because a silencer or a suppressor is not a gun. It is not a firearm. I'm not saying it shouldn't that there shouldn't be some regulations about them as laid out in. I'm saying that nineteen thirty four was the mistake when they even included it it's like saying that a hand grip apply piece of plastic. The attached to a rifle is a gun and therefore the government, Russ regulated. I'm saying that there should be no regulation to it. So, so I. First of all, as somebody who is also lost a lot of my hearing, and that was from pulling triggers in the military. There is a good reason to suppress these things, and it makes it safer for hunters, it makes it safer for anybody. And it's it's simply one of those things it's, it's like saying Trump is going to outlaw vanilla ice cream. It makes much sense to me as outline a suppressor for a weapon. The tool island or you know, besides the freedom argument besides hearing, how the tool of the silencer helps you know with with gun rights. When I don't care what I do know is that law's prohibition designed to make more felon. So you so they can strip us of our gun rights completely. They did it to me with a whole to a whole lot of hippies and hand, you're out of black folks with the war, because I don't care about the answer to your question. So I'm telling you what is important, and don't like, opinion. That's okay. Yeah, I'm not sure I think what he was looking for is outside of your, your right to keep and bear arms, and outside of keeping you from losing your hearing, what possible reason would silence or make sense to own other than that. How the play MRs Lincoln? That's some what you need. Yeah, I know that's, that's sort of the point. It's what more do you want? And you can't tell me that because one guy, one guy used one of these in a mass shooting that there's some epidemic that, that these things are a hazard. They're being used every. Mess killing in the last eighteen years of been used by suppressor. That's, that's not true. It's the exact opposite. Yes. Like the bump stock ban bump stocks got used once because responsible gun owner saw what for, for what it was, which was a novelty item. I can only remember one case where where a silencer of any sort was used it was a two liter bottle. It was used by a nervous. Husband, who wanted to kill his wife and her lover. And thought that the suppressor would prevent her lover from awakening. When he shot her. Well, of course, this didn't work. Right. Right. Got the guy anyway, the drop on the can't beat the element of surprise very often. But, but the, the reality is most people's awareness of suppressors, and they think silencer that's, that's the word press is used it. They get it from Hollywood. What? Vests. What is a how would they defining the? I don't know if these were Thailand are sound suppressor or whatever. But what is that? How is that the fine in the law? I mean what is that? Because it can you make a gun out of material that does the same thing, but it's not because it's not attached to it becomes, it's not a silencer or right? Yeah. What if the design of your gun just saves people's hearing? Right. Hold gun gonna be illegal to question. You have to go back to the national farms, three thirty four and read it because that's where it's, it's coda fide now the problem is, we have bureaucrats that are actually writing our laws for us. So somebody said, well, we need to address the question suppressors, because, you know, the law, we wrote back in the thirties that isn't really accurate. So, so come up with some guideline some up with some regulations that everybody now has to follow, even though they were written by people who were never elected, have no power to create a law. But in our but not the not true. Thirty thirty. That's a good point. But that's how we end up with this stuff and you know, there were three or four times when bump stocks went before the F, because the manufacturer bump stocks was going doing something illegal. And they kept coming back to him saying, Nope, this is not a machine gun. This is just a thing. And every one of those laws, give them the opportunity to make good people into felons, and then persecute them for the rest of their life, every time they pick up a tool. So the quarter of million people are so that actually bought bump stocks on one day went from being law abiding citizens to being a potential felons. Welcome to the club voice, exactly. Eight fifty five four fifty free and girls. We are going to continue to get into Trump's latest craziness and his actions against the second amendment, and we want to hear from you and what's interesting to you, eight fifty five four fifty free. This is free. Talk live. Since time began tyrants taken aim that personal liberties. Now there's a movie that teams back the government has no more right to tell us what to put in our bodies than they have to take our guns. Tell us what books. We can read six drug. Police were eaten by bears while reading marijuana farm on your name. A hippie today. Many cups enforce putt laws, do so only because it provides them with cushy jobs, good benefits and a chance to push people around. I was an undercover. Narcotics officer, the drug war is nothing but a farce the second amendment says you gotta keep you engine get intact Dunston. We the road to freedom film, by Michael w dean and Nima the Dadi DVD available now at guns dot com or on Amazon, that's guns. We dot com. Makes the perfect gift. Remember that's guns. And we dot com. The new fourth edition of healing our world, the compassion of libertarianism. We'll take your understanding of liberty to a deeper level, and has ever thirteen hundred updated references new cartoons and a forward by Dr Ron Paul with discounts for multiple book purchases the fourth addition of healing. Our world is a great gift for the liberals pragmatists, environmentalists and Christians in your life. Who think libertarianism is cold hearted? Get yours today at healing dot freetalklive dot com and use promo code F T L for a five dollar discount. So you've heard all three hours of the latest episode of free talk live and you're still hungry for liberty oriented, audio content. Did you know that we have another twenty four seven audio stream at L are in dot FM? The liberty radio network airs, the latest episodes of some of the best liberty oriented podcasts on the internet around the clock. In addition to record content, you'll also hear live shows like free talk live originating from our Keene, New Hampshire studio. So listen anytime at L R, N dot FM. That's. L. R. N. You're listening to heartland newsfeed radio network live twenty four seven at heartland newsfeed dot com. This is the liberty your daily source for Liberty News. An activist updates produced in partnership with as LS news and listeners like you online. Liberty beat dot news dot news. I'm mic Merle with your latest edition. Other liberty gold is trading at one thousand three hundred forty one dollars silver at fifteen dollars in bitcoin is trading around eight thousand forty one dollars. Today's prices brought to you by ino scale takeoff with manage go out looking for a safe secure way to store your important files. Online let ino scale handle it for you. Their high availability cloud servers are the perfect solution for clients needing one or more secure scalable. Servers with built in hardware fell over protection for details. See them online it. Oh, scale dot net in the news, the federal government accountability office has issued an update to its twenty sixteen report on the FBI's use of facial recognition, the takeaway, which they also shared during. A congressional house oversight committee hearing the FBI now has access to six hundred forty one million photos including driver's license, and I photos, but it still refuses to assess the accuracy of it systems activists poster boards that the facial analysis comparison evaluation services unit not only has access to epi is next generation at indication, face working database of nearly thirty million civil and criminal mugshot though, does it also has access to the State Department's visa and passport databases. The FBI has done little in the last three years to make sure that it search results are accurate, according to the new report, the liberty is sponsored in part by brave botanical 's high-quality, crate him in CBD at reasonable prices with excellent customer service. Rave botanical is activist owned and mission driven and believe so strongly in the power of crate him. They're giving it away for free. Just go to free ounce of creative dot com for a free crate him delivered to your door. Just pay shipping. That's free. Crate him dot com. This is the latest addition of the liberty beat find us online. Liberty dot news and doesn't LS news. Your news now continues metropolitan police in London have arrested four teenagers involved in reprehensible attack on two women who were left bloodied and hospitalized after being taunted for their sexuality the mind, unleash reports the four males age fifteen eighteen or being questioned on suspicion of robbery and aggravated grievous, bodily harm or severe assault at the Cording to a statement by the police Melanie gaming at a twenty eight year old Ryanair stewardess from Uruguay shared a photo on Facebook of herself. Enter girlfriend, Chris, after they were assaulted Bank group of men who began shouting at them in throwing coins. The couple had just gone on a date in Camden, and will returning home early on may thirtieth when the four men began demanding they kiss each other in front of them when the to refuse to share an intimate moment for the entertainment of the. Hooligans the young men and teens beat them leaving them with serious facial injuries before also stealing their belongings, hate crimes on the mass transportation network of the UK have doubled over the past five years, according to British transport police data. In what would be the first of its kind, Louisiana woman allegedly died from TAC overdose after vaping, a large amount of cannabis oil, the mind unleashed, citing the New Orleans advocate reports at the otherwise healthy thirty nine year old collapsed and died in her place apartment in February due to high levels of THC, the main psychoactive compound in cannabis, that's according to Saint John Baptist Peres corner Christie money. They woman had healthy organs, and no symptoms of illness, or elevated, traces of alcohol and drugs in her body. Well THC can cause heart palpitations and extreme anxiety and some years, the federally funded National Institute of drug abuse has said that no recorded deaths have been attributable to marijuana overdose. Various experts also cast doubt on the corners claims describing his conclusion as highly unlikely, a former senior policy advisor at the White House office of national drug control policy noted that if such overdoses. Possible. The growing amount of cannabis consumption in the US would have likewise, risen support for the liberty comes from the conscious resistance network featuring videos news reports and articles from spiritual anarchist perspective, experience, the conscious resistance at the conscious resistance dot com. How would you like to have your business featured on the liberty beat? You can just into Email to liberty beat at dot news for details. This is the liberty produced in partnership with SNL S news and listeners like you. The liberty is online. Liberty dot news dot news. I'm McMurdo reporting for the liberty reminding you spread liberty with a smile with a smile. From nineteen forty one Biba became the first single celled organism to play professional baseball to seventeen ninety four when Thomas Jefferson more than likely did something historically significant the onion looks back at this week in history. On may twenty fifth nineteen twenty five Tennessee teacher. John, t scopes, was formally indicted, for teaching the theory of evolution in public school. After a monkey call to the STAN failed to turn into a human. On the witness stand for three hours now in this time, we haven't seen you lose any of your hair or shed your taste. Can you at least articulate a single justifiable reason why Mr. Darwin's theory through even be mentioned on Asians? And on may twenty seventh nineteen ninety five actor Christopher Reeve came in last place in a horseback. Riding event. The onion news network. This is free. Talk live entering our number three three hours of radio every night, taking your calls, bringing up some topics that we think are interesting, we hope you do too and generating some phone calls. We've got a couple of people on hold. But the we in studio tonight is by self, Chris, Chris number one, and the nobody formerly known as Rich Paul. Yeah. It's, it's just we have to Chris's in studio. And I know is enjoy doing shows with you. You always bring an interesting perspective to whatever were discussing rich you and I are on a lot. And I enjoy doing shows with you. But when you have two people, the same first name, it does get a Ted confusing at. At. Either you can use. Either of them in they're both I we're gonna really start to confuse people. If I go by the name rich, exactly. He goes by the name Paul. Yeah. We are all Rich Paul. Nobody. We have been talking about Donald Trump making noises again, saying that he is going to take a serious look at the issue of suppressors. Of course, he uses the word silencers, and these things do not silence. Anything they make things less. Loud, not silent. There's a big difference there and advocates that say these things should be more legal than they are now right now. You have to pay a special tax stamp two hundred dollar tax to get one. You have to wait about six months, at least for paperwork to go through before you can even think about receiving one. So it's not something one would use in a crime of passion. But right now we're going to go to a lease in Maine lease. You're on free talk live. Hey, what's up what's going on? How are you tonight? Are you just wanted to call? Because I think the last caller before the break just wasn't on the right wavelength about oppressors, specifically owning them. Okay. I think, like, honestly, the most general point that I have is who cares what I wanna spend my money on, like, if I wanna go spend my money on clothes, or food, or suppressors. It really doesn't matter just because one person does something with an on jacked doesn't mean that I'm going to do the same thing. Right. The message shouldn't be suppressed just because of the, the whims of the of the might minority really. Yeah. I'm Nordia one in this case. Yeah. Food and clothing both been used as murder devices. Yeah. And that's a good. Well, maybe, I think yeah. It's and again, people are just brainwashed. They don't have the experience of even being around these objects yet. They wanna formulate all these, you know, crazy opinions on. Oh, we have to ban it there. You guys were right earlier this Hollywood that time you know, promoted this silence or Yuri lately, not silent at all. I would say for my own personal experience. It's picking something that unsuppressible damage your hearing for sure. Depressing it to a level where it is still wicked loud, right? But it might not damage your hearing. Yeah. Love plop, almost like a crack kind of your taking this super loud bang that will bam, you're hearing. Kind of popping profiting, the profit, Robert Heinlein wrote that there's no such thing as a dangerous weapon. There are only dangerous men. Yeah. And as long as you stay, a dangerous, man. They can't disarm you completely now. It's interesting. You were talking about the crack of a gun, and that actually is what suppressor does. It's a series of baffles inside of a tube and the two. Well, sorry, go ahead. It's all right. But as the round passes through this, it catches that what we hear as the crack of a rifle is the, it's literally, a sonic boom, a very small sonic, boom, that occurs because the bullet is flying wave faster than the speed of sound. And that's why another way you can cause something to be much more suppresses to use eve, if he were using subsonic ammo with suppressor, then you end up with something that gets really much much more. Oppressed. If you will does that make sense? You eliminate crack it's that crack that hurts drag kills. Yeah. There you go. Feel. I mean even with subsonic ammo you can still hear it. You know it's still very apparent in very obvious. What it is. But I wish that, you know, there's a larger point with this conversation. And I wish people would just identify it for what it is either the, the same people, calling for bans on these kind of objects are the same people that want to tell you what they eat. They wanna tell you what you can do or can't do these are the same people that were pushing lobotomies way back in the day thing on completely faith. Gotta do it that this is the only option that you can ever imagine, you know, doing, and it's just a really rich people to call it for what it is. I really appreciate your call. Thanks, thanks for calling in a lease. Yeah, you get that a lot. And I often hear people commenting on my Facebook page, and it's always the same cast of characters. But okay, come on. Chris, what about just some commonsense gun laws? You know, just just some common sense ideas, you know, do you really gun rights, then, do you really need thirty rounds prostitutional, right? To carry or what I'm going to say to say to him is, that's what about some common sense, government control? Do you really seventy eight alphabet agencies? Do you really need? Forty percent of the national income. Do you really need to be able to pull innocent people over on the side of the road and shake him down for money because if not what we needed some government control? Because all of those things are going on every day. It's opened its public open. Your eyes and see it. Absolutely. We're going to stay on the phones where we've, nobody tells the truth, they do Rich Paul. Does we're going to go to Samantha in New York. Samantha you're on free talk live. Hi. Rich Paul slash. Nobody. Welcome back. I was so worried. I wasn't gonna be able to hear your views on things for a long time. Thank you. Yeah. So I I'm calling about marriage kind of change things up a little bit because I done. So, like I wish everybody had one, because then at least more good guys that have them bad guys thing, obviously, keep the government out of that. But coming up marriage, because I have a very different view on your, I get criticized but my view on a lot. I don't think the government should be in it. Criticize position to. Don't wanna marry the government straight now and my boyfriend and I are both. Thank you, my boyfriend and I are both say, whenever we're both Holly era. So we also we already have like, oh, taboo form of relationships. And then everyone's like, well, if you're probably gonna get married like can't I it's just a symbol of how much I love a certain person I can get married more than once, not. Well, the church, the invisible hand is anxious to perform the first Polly wedding in New Hampshire. So if you want to get married, and you find the third like minded person, growing up, I will take care gratis. I will charge you nothing will will videotape. The procession will make it a big thing. I haven't even met you just offered to marry you. That's no point. So you choose like close but not close. We're okay. Look into forecasts. Going, I wanna move there, actually, I just it's taking some planning does that, you know, I I get asked all the time like will, you know, if you're going to get married, then you're gonna get legally married. And I'm like, no, I don't wanna be married, you don't after and why why why have a wedding and I'm like, what does he have reception afterwards? That's half the fun. It's the party. It's Bracy is Lawrence. Two people who love that's great. And it's almost even more important for poly couple to have a wedding. And the reason is, we grow up steeped in the culture of monogamy steeped in the idea that it committed relationship takes one form and one form only that's built into our culture, but it's not necessarily correct. That's something we heard it from the Christians, and Christians are nuts on a lot of issues, so absolute, you know, we but for a poly marriage, you have to define what that means does that include your sister. You know. Right. And, and the big thing is you have to act with love, Sarah, thanks for the call or Samantha. Thank you for the call. I do. Appreciate it. Eight fifty five four fifty free. How many people should be allowed to get buried? That's a great question. And maybe more limit. Why should there be a limit? This is free talk, excuse me this, where I get a license. Start new business. Get a license to go out of business to, you know. Oh, well, look, I've invented this anti gravity machines. You're welcome to inches above the floor. Oh, yes, it's very comfortable on Shula fill out these forms and report of the human services department of manpower orientation, and registered with Farren pliant practice commission Llosa waiting our division of the employment standards administration. The state sales and income tax division, the Internal Revenue Service and social security, the department of health, education and welfare. And of course, OSHA Osho those a little tone of Wisconsin. You'll find out Saint floating around like that can be dangerous, if you check with the consumer Product Safety Commission will not yet. Not yet. That you actually are flying aren't you look, you need to go over to the Federal Aviation Administration and the transportation, very hard to get anything done these days, if you're in business, but free enterprise built this country think what could happen, if we don't keep it free. A public service of the station in the center for the defense of free enterprise Bellevue. Washington just can't have people floating about unregulated you now sell for one one is a free app for Android. And IOS replaces government control nine one, one cell phone, one allows you to preset a group of friends or private organizations show. Any emergency sell for one, one of them nightmare for the state because proves their so called services are needed sell four one, one is thousands of installs. And of course, it's covered by the Pitcock. 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You can call us and let us know what's on your mind. We've been talking about suppressors my gosh, the Trump, the Trumpster is has got his eyes on another thing that previously had been protected by law by the second amendment, but he wants to take a hard look at that. But before we get back into that I do want to tell you about my magic mud mad magic Mudd is a black tooth powder. Yes. Black made from charcoal is coconut, shells, and Benton, clay. It is clinically proven to whiten teeth all I'm going to say is if you follow the directions that are right on the side of the packaging, you will get amazing results is, is sold in most health food stores including sprouts. CVS natural grocers. And you can even get it a WalMart in the natural beauty aisle. And if you use the code F, T L, twenty you will get twenty percent off your online. Order at my magic, mud dot com. That's my magic, mud dot com. So is Trump. Correct. In Sesing, these things is silent, but deadly his that where we're at am. I making playful fart jokes about him stealing more of my constitutionally protected rights. You know, the details don't matter because all they're talking about, is, what is the size and the scope and the magnitude and the nature of the abridgement of our rights. But the second amendment reads, a well regulated militia being essential necessary to the maintenance of a Free State, a well, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed will, she say are discussing the size in the shape of something that must not happen, regardless of size or shape? Oh, no rich. They're talking about militias winners, even have those things anymore. That's it's in the text Aves right there in the militia act. I believe is called the ballista act which is a federal law that was passed in nineteen eighteen the militia is constituted by the able bodied men and I, I would argue women under the constant. Seventeen seventy. Right. So that is what the militia is. The great object is that every man be armed. That's the militia, that's Tom Pame. That's common sense. I agree it is. It's insanity. And if you dare bring up, and I bring up the militia thing, tongue-in-cheek because people, assume that, that means a bunch of guys who wanna go play army on the weekends and pretend like they're patriots, and they're going to go, you know, and then they'll say this, well, you could never overthrow the US government. I mean, look at all the weapons that they have look at all of the tanks and all of the aircraft to which I usually reply with one question, and that is Afghantistan. Yeah. I mean here you have basically tribesmen who have defeated not one, but two superpowers have bogged them down. We have been in Afghanistan for twenty years, and we have scientists we have engineers, we have computer. Scientists the hacker ethic is liberty. Okay. The hacker ethic is information wants to be free. We are smarter than the government, if we work together, I will simply say that it if it ever did come to a shooting war, and I just, I don't want to see that happen. I would anyway to avoid it. But I, I hope there is one and anybody is trying to find a more peaceable solution. I wish you well I do too, but the idea that the government is going to ease up, they're going to start returning some of the rights that they have stolen. In from you, and I'm not talking about rights, that are just written on a piece of paper. The second amendment doesn't grant you the right to self-defence what the what the second amendment. There is therefore, is to protect your natural right of self-defense, you have this, when you are born. When you came out of your mother, you had a right to self-defense that wasn't granted to you buy a second amendment. It wasn't granted to you by any any government. It is part of the human condition. It is or if your if you're a godly person than it was granted to you by your creator. See whatever you're feeling is it did not come from government? Yeah. Now a pro life or would say the right to keep and bear arms. Would start conception not birth. Although it's largely a moot point, all right to free speech. Right. Right. Right. The phone where we've got Sarah, Colleen in from New Mexico. Sarah, you're on free talk live. You like that. To my head rich. Why are people always say that to me? Sarah, you're on free talk on what's on your mind tonight. Let me guess. Very field that you would have less pedestrian fatality if more of the drivers eight Lor. Meatless veggie Patty, you know what I. Hold you know what I is this, Sarah? Yes, I think that the world would have fewer traffic fatalities, if the US government would stop dropping bombs on the Iraqis. Well, they're driving. That's a good point too. So Sarah, let me get this straight. If more people because you really gotta go out on a limb to kind of understand this. When if more people would stop eating meat and start eating meat list, patties, then there would be fewer traffic fatalities. What that's what you say. I want to tie two things together that meatless Patty that I've been advocating for and pedestrian fatality because, you know, the meeting it makes you even ring. Have you any wonder it is not the figures? She's repetitive. Is always fresh. You need new material sweetheart, you know what compare combined compared to the crimes of the US government traffic fatalities in TOTO are nothing. So tell us tell us about something that's killing of people like the war in Iraq, and you'll get our attention. Absolutely, sarah. Thank you for your call. She is very concerned with traffic fatalities. This is a constant thing. I was kinda curious as to where she could possibly go with meatless patties. But I came to the same conclusion, you did, which was absolutely nowhere nothing. It's gonna make sense. Sometimes Sarah is it's so ironic that Sarah becomes like the car accident that you can't help but watch it really is really hard to look away from. I don't I cannot comprehend where she gets her news for, like where I mean, literally comes at a room out is like stuff that comes out of the onion, I think that wrong Oshii learned that a rectum could be used as a self sealing helmet and. Military guy understands. All time. Yeah. I don't know. She is very concerned about people being run over in New Mexico. The way she tells it, the, the streets are littered with dead and dying and we've never found anything that really backs that up statistically. But, you know, that's our point of view, and she will call in every single night to talk about it. We're not really that interested in talking about that. But we do want to continue on with Donald Trump. And why he feels silencers are deadly eight fifty five four fifty free. Give me a call. This is free talk live. Why did you move to the Shire? I moved here to the Shire because there's other people around who take liberty just as seriously, as I do I moved to the Shire, because I saw videos of people challenging authority and thought that I could get support myself. It called to me, like do this right now? I wanted to be around people like me who got it. And once I got here, I knew there was no or else, I wanted to be, I've always wanted to change the world. So I moved to the Shire, to join people who were actually working towards doing the same thing. The people here are awesome loving and positive. It was for the adventure. And for the feeling of something important is happening here. And I just wanted to come to sort of be part of that visit Shire, society dot com to read and sign the Shire, society declaration, and learn the reasons why if you love liberty you should immigrate to the Shire. Plus connect with others via the forum at Shire, society dot. Com. That's Shire, society dot com. So the protection of life, liberty and properties is what the Free State price felt about. But it's it's an effort to move twenty thousand people who understand it's about demonstrating to the entire country, we can have a free market truly fee market, making it just a great place to live. It's the world's largest while interests libertarian community, and it's, it's only getting bigger, that's amazing to be able to move to other people like passionately believe in being free. And independent, what the Free State project is managing to do, though, is to put their money where their mouth physically getting up across the country and saying, that's go someplace, let's demonstrate the power of these ideas. There's a lot of kind of philosophy that surrounds liberty. There's a lot of thinking about it and talking about it, but here in New Hampshire. People are doing one hundred one reasons. Liberty lips in New Hampshire a documentary by Free State project early movers. Watch it free at one, one reasons, film dot com. One, oh, one reasons, film dot com. Did. You know, you can legally exit the US federal income tax system. Well, it's true. And thousands of American nationals are doing it, the sixteenth amendment, and the internal revenue code are legal, but only in a limited jurisdiction. This is the basis behind the voluntary nature of the income tax. Learn the exit strategy provided by congress. Find out more by visiting wise, Paris dot com and watch are numerous videos. That's w EIS s Paris dot com. There are lots of ways to listen to free talk live or podcast has been around since podcast began. And now the F T L feed is loaded with content besides are full show archives. Did you know that we make it easy for you to customize your podcast? Subscriptions, we have different feeds one that includes only are full shows, one with just the daily digest and one with just the edging post, you decide what you listen to. It's quick and easy to customize your feeds at feeds dot freetalklive dot com. That's feeds dot freetalklive dot com. Do you know the difference between erudite and pedantic if you do you're probably pedantic? But seriously, a surprising number of Eradyeh people, mispronounce erudite, which has three syllables not for say erudite not air you dight because you are judged by how you speak, you want to avoid common misstatements, especially if you're a job seeker for instance, Dino, the difference between imply and in for only a speaker can imply only a listener can infer and when you say, you'll be out of pocket. Demean out of touch out of pocket means you're on your own dime. Not yet reimbursed. And if anyone ever asks why do you always answer a question with a question? You should reply to why do that. Just kidding from survival speech dot com. I'm Holland Cooke. Now, more of the freshest episode free talk live presented by Seiko CA. I listen online at freetalklive dot com. Free talk live final segment coming up, but eight fifty five four fifty free. That's eight five five four five zero three seven three three. I was thinking our final segment we got two segments. So you can get in and get on the air and let us know what you think we've been talking about Donald Trump, that stout defender of our first amendment rights, trying to ban sup in that has nothing to do with guns. It is something that would actually make a gun, a little safer to shoot and safer at least four you're hearing. And because one wackadoo decided he was going to go in and shoot up some people, and he happened to have a suppressor on his handgun. That's how I understand it then, then by gosh, because one person did it in one single act and one single day than that. That means every person in the United States of America, who is otherwise allowed to, to legally purchase firearms to legally purchase certain firearms accessories. And by the way, can legally purchase fully automatic machine guns. You have that, right? The government says you have to pay an extra tax to do it, but you have that. Right. Because of that your President Donald Trump. And I wanna talk to Republicans were you guys on this. Is this, this just another bump stock to you? Well, it's not that big a deal and it's a Republican taking away, our guns. So, so we're okay with that, as, as a registered Republican, which I, which I am kind of accidentally, but I have that stigma next to my name. So I'm gonna get biology out of it. I can write it was. It's Ron Paul's fault, and I forgive, but as a registered Republican what I believe the position of anybody. Who is pro gun rights pro second amendment should be is that they should be working in their local state to organize a million man armed March, open carry March against tonight. It's okay, we want an end to denied us, and we want silencers of k we want the suppressors aren't good enough. We want silencers invented. Right. And it's, it's absurd. Somebody pointed out and discord that, well, that's not all. I mean you do have to get a background check and you do have to get this, and, and that if you if you want to acquire a suppressor you do have to fill out a background check. You have to get background check. You have to fill out all the forms. You'll have to submit a photo, you'll have to submit your fingerprints, I believe that's still a thing. You're gonna have to get permission of the chief law enforcement officer in your air. Area and New Hampshire, that's usually, the sheriff, the sheriff has to sign off and say, Yep. No problem. I have no reason to deny this person the opportunity to acquire something under federal law. That does not fire a bullet. That's the insanity. You can't. If you took a silencer by itself suppressor by itself, you can wack somebody over the head with it. You know. I mean you could web somebody over the head with your vibrator to is messed up is, you can carry you don't need to you. Don't need anybody commercial slipped to go out and buy gun in open carry it. Right. So if you don't be a producer for that. Why would you need for silence? Or if you if you do have to get a permission slip, if you buy it from a F, F L, or, you know, federal licensed better license that way. Right. You don't have to buy it that he if you wanted to buy a gun from me, and if you could offer me enough money to convince me to give up one of my one of my firearms I could sell you a gun person to person that is absolutely legal. They'll. To nobody because nobody is a felon, right? He was illegal for you to possess that new be illegal for me to knowingly sell it. You're but the point here. Okay, hold on. Nobody should be devoured, the use of arms when they're a peaceful person. I agree. Nobody is even even though it's illegal nothing actually, prevents him from going and buying a gun from another person. But these are special items, and this is what the national firearms act. Thirty four co defied was saying that no, the whole thing's futile, it is futile. It's silly, it's insane. But this was in response. Keep in mind, nineteen thirty four. This was after prohibition. This is when the, the country, did indeed face while wave of crime, you know. And it was due to people providing something that everybody wanted I who. And, and they were it was a black market created by the federal government with the sixteenth amendment. What I'm saying. I mean actually actually furthered it promoted it because it's legal. Well. More desirable. It becomes more desirable, right? Yep. It was a sad state of affairs. We're going to go the phones where we've got David in New Mexico. David, you're on free talk live. What's on your mind? Nobody likes e ED. I keep hearing that on the radio. So you've got like the because it cuts down the competition to me and that doesn't even rhyme a bet. You didn't know it. But I'm a poet, there you go. There. You know what you got? Right now is the first of all, you, they, they, they can't get past a concert of constitutional amendment, real repeal whatever that takes seventy percent. So their taxes tactics are to one what to do whatever throw and whatever sticks to the wall. And whether whether it's by passing lesser legislation in the famous statutes about long this outlying that, you know, everything, but trying to change the amendment because they can't get the and changed. The second amendment are you on the same page. We are talking about guns or. Yeah. Everything Mr. trying to completely alter the way they don't make the constitution. They don't like the rights that gives you and they can't they can't get enough votes to pass a constitutional amendment to repeal and amendment or whatever. And so they do it with all this other Bs and guns is one area. And, you know, my children were traffic because of the same thing because judges, and that whole port house cottage industry gets away with whatever they throw and sticks to the wall, whether it's bypassing statute or just by doing what they damn. Well, please, and then you've got to appeal decision, right, then legislate bench, they can make their decisions have the affecting color of law. And it's doing this. I'm sorry, that happened to him. Pardon? I'm sorry, that happened or your children men. They killed my wife, that's ended up in the fight. Got it. Yeah. Thank you appreciate that. But they're doing it in literally every few if you look at at any aspect of life. The government's got its fingers in it, and they're, they're taking this control in literally every area of your life, not just guns and not just children in parental rights doing everything Larry. And if you don't take large numbers don't take a firm, stand real soon. It's going to be all over with the only possibility after that being in an actual hot war. So and we talked about this we were talking about silliness, and, you know, and the Trump administration took great pride in announcing that they had done away with another ridiculous regulation that made it a felony to have a certain more than or fewer than a certain number of unblemished cherries in a frozen cherry pie. How what we do what the legislature of Idaho in its wins them. I will. Call them the honorable, please. Tell me I got the right state. Yes. I will. I will call one of those guys honorable if he voted for this, that I run into him, I will shake his hand and call him honorable, which I won't ordinarily do for them. But because they voted to drop the entire regulatory code. Guess what? I've been in hippie camps a lot. There's no regular coat regulatory code. Nobody's dies because we aren't stupid. Oh, you know what about on that subject? I've been there's been on the list while a actually right here, I was giving Boeing backup teeth the next Akot and Subcomandante Marcos. You know what I'm talking about. No Marco sit in her appeal. Rebel Indians, in Mexico, Chapas dumping pieces Subcomandante Marcos, all that anyway. I don't know about that. So without flushing it out. I don't know if we're gonna get your meaning. I, I can I can make it till you get you, can you can look it up later. But what they basically, they have no government and what, what other than what the minimum pay need. Here's, here's what they do. This is just a, you know, a number of thousands of people. Most of them are did you wit my brother? Thanks for your call David, eight fifty five four fifty free our final segment coming up and we want to hear from you. This is free. Talk live. Free talk live the show where anyone can call about whatever they want, and we do mean anyone ginger in Florida. You're on free talk live, call it gave you all some news. We found out about your name was Paula trying to hide your identity Paula, you trying to protect yourself, from the NSA in the new world order, nNcholas Paula no. Anyway, ginger. Yeah. Why is it been Paula? Every other time you've call I guess she does call to. Mation. We ram. That well, actually the whole world was going into a world collapsed. They. We have till the first. So what I wanna know ginger is, do you know who Paul is? I'm trying to. The information you said the world's going to collapse in less than a week start drinking now and I'm not coming out of it, until after. Live live seven nights a week from seven to ten eastern live on the liberty radio network at L, R, N dot FM. Should you be able to earn honest living free from senseless government interference the institute for Justice things? So that's why we spent years to fending hardworking men and women from pointless, government regulations nationwide. 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Your to, to the newest episode of free talk live, presented by Seiko CA, I visit us online at freetalklive dot com. This is free talk live, eight fifty five four fifty free haywar in our final segment. But there's still time you give us a call. We will get you on the air but I, I wanna tell you about liberty dot menu for years. Libertarians of all stripes of wanted a directory of liberty minded businesses, and we're helping build one liberty dot menu. Liberty dot menu as a tool for your community at its core is a directory of events, businesses digital content and more listings can be rated and reviewed and there's a bit of a social network aspect. You can connect and share with others. Use of liberty dot menu is exclusively for individuals who reject the initiation of force, and for those who agree to abide by the ethics of the non aggression principle. Put your voluntariness ideas into action, liberty dot menu and use code F T L to get a special badge. Liberty dot menu. And while I'm in, in the spirit of promoting liberty I wanna thank couple people. I wanna thank Jared porcupine, who is a platinum amplifier. What is an amplifier? I'm also gonna thank Chris Hickman who is also a gold fire amplifiers are people that have joined are advertise market and promote amp program on free talk live, what they do is they have made a pledge basically, to contribute, a couple of bucks a month, and help us reach more people and spread the ideas of liberty by getting more radio stations to carry our, our, our message, and happily. We are over two hundred stations now, which is a big deal. It's two hundred affiliates. Coast to coast, and I think I'm safe in announcing this, but today or last night, this show has moved up in the. Rankings of talkers magazine. This is the trade journal for the talk radio industry. I think number one is probably Sean Hannity, and we out of a and they list their heavy hunters being nominated for a CB. But we already won it that if you watch Frazier. There we go. We have steadily moved up in the ratings throughout our history. But talkers magazine now rates us as the twenty sixth most important talk show in America. And that's a big deal that's recognition from people are industry, and I want to thank everybody involved journalists share certainly, try to report the truth, as I understand it. Absolutely. And one of the really trying to silence journalists in this whole episode. That's a good point. Jared porcupine has pledged to give twenty five bucks a month. And that is very generous. Chris Mun has pledged to give ten dollars a month. And again, you can find out more at amplify r amp dot freetalklive dot com on our amp program. You do get some perks, and it's a kind of a nice thing. It's nice for us to say thank you for the people that help us get on more stations. So what do we think Donald Trump, what a guy he's going to protect the second amendment? And even this is what frustrates me the most even the hard core gun rights, quote unquote, hardcore gun rights, folks. They just turned a the turn a blind eye to his actions. Well, it's, it's Trump, you know. So, you know, it's okay. We, we can take that. We're nobody really uses bump stocks anyway. Nobody really at buys suppressors. Okay. When we grow does it mad as part of the broke owed. Exactly. That's how it's treated. Yeah. And it's and it illustrates to me that this is all being orchestrated by a single group of people, who's that. Talking about an all gar, George Carlin called the club. I just, you know, I don't the big club and we're not part of it. I'm not going to say that we don't have an oligarchy, and I'm not saying that, that certain policies are put forth by certain people, what I am saying in this case, Donald Trump is a liar. And Donald Trump has again violated his campaign promises. You should not trust this man, why this all I trusted the guy ever looking at you. Chris. Tell you where Trump supporter, my they're all liars, and that the system is designed to filter out, anybody who isn't a liar. The system is designed to filter out anybody who is into crook. That's why libertarian party's party as always done so badly. Well, let me tell you in a system of unjust laws. Nobody is a crook K. Because the laws are in valid, nobody is a crook. What other politician is going to buy that vote for, nobody twenty twenty because I'll tell you the truth. Nobody tells you that truth and you are in the process of trying to get your name change to nobody. So you can go on the ballot and say vote for nobody I intend to run in order for the mayor of the city of Keene for the governor of the state of New Hampshire for the vice president of the United States, and I'm going to be seeking the nomination of the pirate party, and I'm gonna hope and I hope to draft verb. Supreme into doing this with me in the pirate party, and I am going to be running for secretary of the general of the United Nations. If I can figure out how, but I also starting nobody campaign. Okay. Not just me because I'm nobody this isn't about me were all nobody's in their system. So if you're, you know, mad Hatter and you wanna do something fun. I'm going to encourage you to, to legally change your name to nobody and get yourself on the ballot and the ballot. This show legally changed your name, and run for what ever and I guarantee you right now that nobody will vote for nobody because I'm nobody. So if we have above if we were writing cannot, none of the above. Nobody has to be synchronized the name change that ridge. What if you run as nobody, but you're faced with a challenge from somebody whose name is none of the above. Well my. What are relative ballot physicians? Because it comes down to where we are the better. If none of the above is matter. Nobody then none of the above disqualifies himself, and therefore, nobody should be elected if I'll ever none of the above is below. Nobody clearly the user intended to include. Nobody in the excluded set at therefore intends to vote for none of the above. Okay. No. I'm just going to say because somebody out there, that's what happens when you feed drugs to computer programmers that somebody out there listening to freetalklive, probably for the first time, and they think, well, these guys are just they're mocking our system of government. This is how victim of government is a joke. It's not my system of government. The guy who says that our system of government is not mind. Keep your head off my lawn. Exactly. And that's the idea. We will poke fun at your SIS. System if you believe that it represents she of you believe that it represents me, if you believe that it actually represents anyone, we're not only going to make fun of it. We're gonna make funny. You, you need to wake up and look at this and go did Donald Trump lie to you. Did Bill Clinton lie to you? Did Barack Obama light to you? Have they lied to your whole life? The answer's probably. Yes. Bill curtain was one of the he was the only person I ever voted for got elected. I voted for Dukakis I voted for Clinton, then I saw what Clinton did an office in his first term, and I voted for Clinton once once. Right. I might next vote was for Harry Brown, can I just clarify that figuratively? You saw what Clinton did in office? I mean I didn't see what he did with Monica. I. Clear way, too literal about the fact that he probably did support and perjury, which is a serious charge and oddly enough that got overlooked because of the risk gay factor instead of over analyzed because of the risk factor. That was a really good turn of luck quotation for them in the media. What I just wanted to say rich is I do enjoy doing radio with you, and people that have come forward and said that I know this about the Clinton I saw that they have met untimely ends and I didn't want you to be on some list. Well, you know what the last thing hammer obvi- said to that kid before he got shot. He told you can see his lips sear lips moving his lips whoever whatever it was on film, and it saying, I know something about Hillary Clinton. And I'm going to hold a press conference read, read hammer arby's, lips of my gosh. It is insane. I just and. And to, to go back to where we started with this, the idea that Trump found another inanimate object that he wants to ban it, it been Trump. I I'd love to. I would love to we got a bad Hillary to, let's ban all politics of that's easy enough, all in favor, how many people die corrupt. I there we go. We have, I'm going to send Christie one way in we're banning Trump or banning Hillary Clinton. I support both okay creding passes. That's all we have here on free. Talk live John, where we will be having more fun in for volley. Taking your phone calls and sharing. The news, this is free. Talk live. His spreading the message of liberty crypto currency and peace around the globe worth two dollars per month to you, as you may already know in addition to our internet feed, L Orrin dot FM broadcast on free to air, satellite across north and Central America as well as sub Saharan Africa. And we've been available on satellite for free. Twenty four seven since twenty ten the Laura on FM free to air, satellite signal is reaching some of the most oppressive regimes in the world. And there's no doubt our ideas are making an impact you can learn more about the channels impact by watching the three minute video at fund dot L, R, N dot FM, if you'd like to help free minds globally with our ideas of liberty cryptocurrency and peace. You can donate as little as two dollars per month via fund dot L R, N dot FM. 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Did you know we've taken our L R, N dot FM telephone, listen line to a new level with the L R N dot FM audio on demand line now you can call seven one two seven seven zero eight four four seven anytime and listen to L R, N dot FM's lie feed, and you can listen to a bunch of our original shows on demand, long distance fees may apply just I'll seven one two seven seven zero eight four four seven and choose from the menu seven one two seven seven zero. You're listening to the heartland newsfeed radio network. Mark man newsfeed dot com. This is the liberty your daily source for Liberty News and activists updates produced in partnership, with as LS news and listeners like you online. Liberty dot news dot news. I'm mic Merle. Your latest edition of the liberty gold is trading at one thousand three hundred forty one dollars silver at fifteen dollars in bitcoin is trading around eight thousand forty one dollars. Today's prices brought to you by ino- scale take off with manage, go out looking for a safe secure way to store, your important files online, let Enos Gail handle it for you. Their high availability cloud servers are the perfect solution for clients needing one or more secure scalable. Servers with built in hardware fell over protection for details. See them online. It didn't know scale dot net in the news, the federal government accountability office has issued an update to its twenty sixteen report on the FBI's use of facial recognition, the takeaway, which they also shared during congrats. Title house oversight committee hearing, the FBI now has access to six hundred forty one million photos including driver's license and ID photos, but it still refuses to assess the accuracy of it systems activists post reports that the facial analysis comparison and evaluation services unit not only has access to happy is next generation at indication face recognition database, nearly thirty million civil and criminal mugshot. Does it also has access to the State Department's visa and passport databases? The FBI has done little in the last three years to make sure that it search results are accurate, according to the new report, the liberty is sponsored in part by brave botanical 's high-quality, crate him in CBD at reasonable prices with excellent customer service. Brave botanical is activist owned and mission driven and believe so strongly in the power of crate him. They're giving it away for free. Just go to free ounce of creative dot com for a free crate him delivered to your door just. Shipping. That's free. Crate him dot com. This is the latest addition of the liberty beat find us online at liberty beat dot news and doesn't LS news. Your news now continues metropolitan police in London have arrested four teenagers involved in reprehensible attack on two women who were left bloodied and hospitalized after being taunted for their sexuality they mind. Unleash your ports the format age, fifteen and eighteen or being questioned on suspicion of robbery and aggravated grievous, bodily harm or severe assault at the Cording to a statement by the police Melanie gaming at eight twenty eight year old Ryanair stewardess from Uruguay shared a photo on Facebook of herself into girlfriend, Chris, after they were assaulted Bank group of men who began shouting at them in throwing coins. The couple had just gone on a date in Camden, and will returning home early on may thirtieth when the four men began demanding they kiss each other in front of them when the to refuse to share an intimate moment for the entertainment of hooligans. The young men in teens beat them, leaving them with serious facial injuries before also stealing their belongings, hate crimes on the mass transportation network of the UK have doubled over the past five years, according to British transport police data. In what would be the first of its kind, a Louisiana woman allegedly died from TAC overdose after vaping, a large amount of cannabis oil. They mind unleased citing the New Orleans advocate reports at the otherwise healthy thirty nine year old collapsed and died in her place apartment in February due to high levels of THC, the main psychoactive compound in cannabis, that's according to Saint John Baptist Peres corner Christie money. They woman had healthy organs, and no symptoms of illness, or elevated, traces of alcohol and drugs in her body. Well THC can cause heart palpitations and extreme anxiety and some users, the federally funded National Institute of drug abuse has said that no recorded deaths have been attributable to marijuana overdose. Various experts also cast doubt on the corners claims describing his conclusion as highly unlikely, a former senior policy advisor at the White House office of national drug control policy noted that if such overdoses Ripon. Possible the growing amounts of cannabis consumption in the US would have likewise, risen support for the liberty comes from the conscious resistance network. Featuring videos news reports articles from a spiritual anarchist perspective, experience the conscious resistance at the conscious resistance dot com. How would you like to have your business featured on the liberty beat? You can just into Email to liberty beat at dot news for details. This is the liberty produced in partnership with SNL S news and listeners like you. The liberty is online. Liberty beat dot news. That's LS news. I'm McMurdo reporting for the liberty reminding you spread liberty with a smile radio. It's been here all along, you know, which station is going to tell you the score the game or where to turn when the weather gets rough when something big happens. Good or bad. You know, where to go and now radio has evolved to move with you with the next radio app in your FM enabled phone just plug in your headphones to start experiencing radio in a whole new way while using way less battery data than streaming apps. Find your favorite stations like the one. You're listening to right now. Download the free NextRadio app today next radio live and local wherever you go ton of social networking websites, but one stands apart for very special reason this one saves lives. It's matching donors dot com. Matching donors dot com. Links organ donors with people in need of kidney and other transplants in the US nineteen people each day, waiting for an organ transplant most of them for kidneys, if you've ever considered becoming a living organ donor. Or if you have someone in need of an organ transplant visit matching donors dot com home of the greatest gift of all the gift of life. Matching donors dot com. When it comes to choosing occasion, the kids will never forget Dylan. Theorists of atlas obscure knows some truly bizarre destinations. All of these places aren't places. You would actually necessarily want to take a family vacation or even could go. He's written a new guide for the world's most adventurous, kids, d day expert, Ellwood bun, cyber recommends what to see in Normandy to commemorate the events of June six nineteen forty four. If you want cemetery that any question of T national cemetery co fill, so mad about. It's also a busy time of year in Lisbon. Everything happens in June. We call it the month all the. Saints guides from Portugal. Get us ready to enjoy their charming capital. They are doing lots of beautiful renovation the facades. We the tiles, the as lasers as we say, find out what's new in Lisbon, explore the sights of the D battles, and surprise the kids with the world's curiosities on today's travel with Rick steves. It's a trip that many Americans rate among the most moving of their lives will commemorate, the seventy fifth anniversary of d day. With the advice of historian, Ellwood von cyborg. He covers the sites. You can explore from the allied invasion of Nazi-occupied, France. That's just a bit and guides from Lisbon update, us on what to see and maybe even what to skip this year. When you visit their lively city, the world, really does offer an endless parade of wonders for travelers hatless obscure started as an online collection of bizarre and obscure places and things around the globe. Then it became a bestselling book to stimulate curiosity at an early age. They've now published the atmos- obscure explorer's guide for the world's most adventurous kit, it profiles, one hundred of the most extreme mysterious and weird. But true places across forty seven countries for a look at what they've found we're joined now by atlas obscure co-founder Dylan. Earth. Dylan's. Welcome. Thanks for having me here. So you use the word extreme in the beginning right off the bat. That's a trendy word. And it, it does resonate with people, what's an extreme site in here we use the word extreme because we wanted to sort of frame, what kind of book, this is all of these places aren't places. You would actually necessarily want to take a family vacation or even could go. So, for example, snake island on the coast of cell Paulo, the only people who are allowed to go. There are the Brazilian navy and you have to get permission. If you actually want to visit travel with the doctor, don't you? That's right. You have to travel with the doctor who has the, the anti-venom with them just in case so take the kids, it's wonderful thing to know about not something we are necessarily advising and you make a summer adventure around. So that's the extreme also opened the book with a beautiful sentiment. You're inspiring them to reach out. You say dear adventure, we're about to tell you, one of the greatest secrets to exploring are you ready? Here it is. You are already somewhere amazing. So that's gives you a peek at the philosophy this book, doesn't it? That's exactly right. And one of the things I've been going around and giving presentations to groups of kids in cafeterias, and libraries, and one of the things I always try and get across at the end is I bring up wonders that are close to wherever we are. So it's important that it's not just about, you know, someplace off in Australia or Peru, that there's a place in rural New Jersey, that is just as incredible and has a wonderful story to be told. It's reminding them that it's about a, a frame of mind and less about, you know, putting miles around the world. Yeah, you say this book is your pest port to a world of hidden possibilities. I love the fact that you don't need to be rich. You don't have to have a passport, you don't have to parents to take you to China. You can be wonder struck by the world just by going downtown. That's right. I had a good personal example, not too long ago, which is I grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And it turns out that a couple of miles from my home is. Lab called Orpheus labs that was home to a place that was nicknamed the world's quietest room and ano echo chamber where he could sit inside. And I got to do this, slowly, you're able to start to hear the sounds of your body, and it's really wild. Experience is a perfect example of lived there for fifteen years. And I had no idea that was there. I love that. And it also distanced inspires kids to think of science as part of exploring the world. Clearly, you could look through this book and not leave your living room and kind of venture into zones where you get excited about science or excited about history are excited about nature. You've got a chapter on the, the super collider and a ten thousand year clock in Texas and wave of Norway, this fall, barred global see developed talk a little bit about those from a kid's point of view. Yeah. I mean a couple of those and just to explain how the book works you travel all around the world. The connections are the Matic. So you might start in Texas at this ten thousand year clock. This clock that's being built and is made to run for ten thousand years. It's going to take once a year, and I think chime everyone hundred and, and that's an example of long thinking of sort of thinking about the future. And then vol barred the seed, volt in Norway is another kind of example of that similar idea where it's planning for a long, long time in the future to keep genetic diversity safe. And so we wanted to sort of show kids, not just wonders around the world. But some of the interconnections ties between these things so really takes a young brain to news owns that they might not have thought about like the future. That's right. It and it lets them kind of make exciting connections. And hopefully opens up questions. So you tell them about the cashew Chaka in Peru. The last Incan bridge that's woven out of grass and has been remade each year for hundreds of years, going back to the, the height of Incan empire. And then you connect that with the root bridges in India, which are grown out of the roots of to fake so Asoka trees. And hopefully out of that kids come away thinking these bridges are incredible. But I wonder what other kinds of of, you know, Arbor texture are there other buildings grown out of plants. Does this exist elsewhere in the world ideas, hopefully, this, you know, sort of sparks many more questions and Qwest's Arbor Tech's? Sure I love it, and just for a kid to be exposed to that a kid even at my age, big poster that you kind of go. Now when I'm exploring the world I can look for Arbor texture. We're talking about the wonderfully weird places and things kids like to explore right now on travel with Rick steves, our guest, Dylan Thrace, his cO pound that missives gear up and co author of the new hatless obscure explorer's guide for the world's most adventurous kit. Their website is at the skier dot com. And when I read through the book, it feels like a celebration of diversity, as, if you've got an agenda nut to be looking at the world from an ethnocentric point of view, which is a real challenge for a lot of Americans, especially in this day and age when I think we're more fearful, and we tend to be more ethnocentric was that accidental or in my picking up something that you actually have a political agenda here. You're certainly picking up the right tone. I don't know that it came in as a political agenda, but I think the core of outlets obscure es about celebrating the diversity, and plurality of the world and reminding people that what they think of as normal is bizarre to other people in the world, and, and, you know, the things that we think are on our quite regular and mundane and other places. And so just to celebrate some of that diversity is where you derive joy in travel and experiencing the world that's definitely baked into it. But I for me, it's almost a political because it goes, a little bit deeper than that it goes to like the human soul. Yeah. I was being a little silly to say political, but I'm just saying that it's unfortunate that being open to diversity has to be political in, Sandra. But what we're doing is letting kids know that our culture is not the center of everything, and that you could actually remind, hey, the people on this planet, who sit on something when they go to the bathroom, or the oddballs, because most people don't need a toilet. There's these kind of Eureka's you get when you travel and you can gently we've them into this education that your book provides. You also start the book with a packing list. And you've got some interesting things included. I noticed a couple of things that I wondered are you thinking about something in specific. You have an Elta meter. Yeah. Well, we send kids these sort of explorers to very high, and very low low places. So we just figured it was good to keep that in mind. You know, if you're going to be taking a submarine down to the, the satellite graveyard off of New Zealand that, that would be an interesting place to use that. And so. Aware that you're going to venture high and low, and you should be prepared. Exactly. And, you know, the packing list is somewhere between practical and acknowledging that some of these places are, are slightly off of a standard traveler out of like a Geiger counter. I don't I hope I'm not gonna take my kids with a Geiger counter. But if you were going on offense trip, what would you need a Geiger counter for? Well, I'll tell you and when my kids are a little older, I would actually like to take this trip, even though people eyebrow shoot up, but to noble and we've run some trips as an organization to your noble bit. It's ironic because people think immediately of my gosh. Why would you wanna go to this radiated zone? Right. There's that history. But it's overtime become in a lot of ways like nature preserved you do bring a Geiger counter just to be sure and to check. But there's more radioactive background in parts of Manhattan than there are in much of journal. So it's actually a very different and kind of a beautiful natural experience, besides all of the fascinating disturbing, kind of history of Chernobyl. So. To think about something that they wouldn't think about otherwise. Absolutely. And you've got goat treats one of the ten essentials. What are you gonna need? Golden treats floor. Why don't you need treats? Well, there's a few possibilities, but one, of course, is the, the tree climbing goats of Morocco and go to climb everywhere. But, you know, in parts of Morocco, you can see multiple goats hanging out in the trees, and we just thought it would be generous to bring them something good ties, many times, I've wished I'd had a few go treats, but I didn't have your book. This is traveled Rick steves or talking with Dylan thrust. And the new book is at missive scare explorer guide for the world's most adventurous kid when handy feature in the book is you latitude and longitude you can actually type it into your smartphone, and it goes right to that spot on Google maps, and that's a fun springboard for learning to let the kids, delve more deeply into the places you feature in the book, and I think it just for us. This is a feature sort of across the website and the book for adults. Way of reminding people this is the world that we all share. These are not sort of fantastical made up places you live on this planet with all this wonder and incredible location, there's this sort of grounding it in that in one thing, I noticed about the book is, it's a little more honest, and thoughtful than some other older books in this genre. The Ripley's believe it or not kind of approach to the world. Yeah. It was it was important to us. There's sort of both when you're talking about strange in unusual things. There's a tendency to sort of have it be couched in this, isn't it weird, isn't it? So spooky isn't it? Whatever and kind of disrespect the subject matter. And the same thing happens with kids. So oftentimes, it really gets to be kind of almost patronizing to kids who actually at ages. Eight to twelve I think are quite capable of coming to their own conclusions about stuff. So we just sort of wanted to present these things in their Ernest wonderful amazement and not tell kids feel about them. And I think that works, really well, I think kids understand they respond to. To what's interesting about these locations in the history, and the signs. So Dylan in that regard tickets to China and talk about a couple of things that you thought would be inspiring for young travellers to know about short in China. We talk about the fact that rice sticky rice was used as a part of the mortar for the great wall of China. And presumably, if you went looking for it, maybe you could sort of find you know, you can find archaeological evidence of this, and then we take kids to Mongolia, and talk to them about a library that is not a building. But in fact, comes on the back of a camel because kids, there are so rural and remote that the library has to come to them, and it's a great, we could have done a whole series of borough libraries in Mexico and South America. And just reminder again that the way that kids live in people live all over the world is filled with delightful difference, and pluralism. And that is that itself is, is one of. The wonders of the world. That's really the spirit of this book. It's the spirit of atlas obscure in general. I think Dylan Thurs. Thanks for sharing your atlas obscure approach to the world in a package designed for the world's most adventurous kid, thank you so much. You'll find links to our guests with the notes for each week show at Rick, steves dot com slash radio guide from Lisbon, tell us what's happening, and they're arming city and just a bit. But first, a top rated guide to the day sites. Normandy helps us commemorate the seventy fifth anniversary of the d day landings on June sixth. That's next on travel with Rick steves. The beaches of Normandy, hold the memories of thousands of soldiers and civilians, who fought and died during the day landings of American British and Canadian troops since nearly all of that generation have passed on we now have to rely on history, experts to relive the stories of the liberation of France. And how that led to the end of Nazi tyranny in Europe in World War, Two some years ago, I had the pleasure of touring the DA sites in northern France, with military historian, Ellwood von Siping, Elway moved to Saint Mary Igli to fulfill his lifelong dream of guiding others around the important, battlefield cemeteries, and memorials in normal. Let's revisit an interview we had that first aired on travel with Rick steves ten years ago for the sixty fifth anniversary of the DD landing. I would think joining us think if I'm not supposed to be, so why did you move to Normandy, I moved to nominate because I had a passionate interest in World War Two many, many as ever since I was a tiny boy, and at this stage in my life. I've realized that the moment was ready when I wanted to leave my work, and I wanted to get an fulfill a lifelong passion by telling people about the history, we such houses for a long time. We found a lovely house in the most historic tone of something that was the first city that was liberated was very first one to be liberated by the US, the kickoff point really that is great now do Canadians, and Brits and Americans. All go to Normandy, with the same sort of interest. Yes, they do. They must definitely to people from all over the world on all coming to no money to look at what happened there on the sixth of June and the subsequent days, almost all of the world is interested in that part of the world. It's really quite incredible. Wherever I go people sometimes ask you where do you live? And you say. Somewhere lease. And then they alright they all know this famous little town. I remember the beginning of saving private Ryan the movie there was a veteran going back to the Normandy, the cemetery there. Yes. And his grandchildren. I think just didn't get it and they're all lighting happy, and he was really moved. Yes. How do you prepare people are, what advice do you have for people who are going to Normandy to, to properly get it? I always ask people what preparation they've done in the sense. Have they read any books and have they seen any films? And the majority of people have done that the books, of course, any mount books month because the Stephen Ambrose auguries most famous of American historians. Many, many people of read his lengthy books on denied and that gives people a good of rule. Well rounded appreciation of data and its subsequent events. So have some background before you go there. Indeed, I shit. I think it's very important, and that obviously three films that I've like then recommend people prior to that coming on one of those aged wonderful film, the longest day made as long ago, as nineteen sixty three broadly, and it may be old. It may be ancient and daring, the Shelton black and white, and it's time, but it is a very, very good portrayal of the events leading up to date. I then saving private. Run. Everybody knows that film. And that I think was a film that broke the mold in many respects of the portrayal of on conflict. And then, of course, you've caught bound brothers. I think it's sort of pinnacle, if you will, of realism, and that features the build up to day from the Ebola perspective, apple and put a few is it possible to visit d day and make it worthwhile as day trip from Paris. Yes. My son is, in fact, I would say fifty percent of the people that I take round they quite simply catch a train from Paris from the Gulf son ZOA, and I pick them up in council, and we do days to will be it. It's, it's short compact. And I take them back to count on station in time to catch the six trading. And this is in that favorites restaurant by nine o'clock ferris in date. So many of us have such limited time. If you're going to be selective and have a powerful experience. What are the top two or three sites? He just got us, e the sought, you must see without any question of dodges, obviously, you've got to see summer lease as used to face of the first time to be liberated. And then I would say. Plumbed hawk. And then I would say, I'm a hobby, culminating, if you will in the, in the, to the American national cemetry at kill Vilma. So punt a hawk that's where you get the craters and the German, he'll boxes gunning stations and you get this dramatic bluff, feeling and imagine the climbing up that yes. And then Omaha beach, that's where you walk on the beach the center of the invasion. Yes. And then just above that bluff, is that where we have the American cemetery thought is correct to Omaha beach? You're also saying that famous immature we always see us in days and what museum, do you think is the best one that captures the, the story of the Normandy, landings? That's a very hard questions once they're all so many museums around that. And if you had just one museum to go to I think the app museum that some parodies, it self is it probably will give you the most well rounded, experience my favorite museum is when incon- C E N the museum and cone, if you will is trying to remind people that peace is the objective that we should will be no striving towards. I would. Not disagree with that onto any circumstances. But it doesn't try it doesn't attempts. It's not a war. But indeed, it's has a lesson. It finishes with Nobel peace prize thing. Yeah, indeed. I found it was a good look at war in the twentieth century, and it celebrates the Nobel peace laureates. Yes, is very moving. But you're right. If you wanna real warm use Iem you can find it at you say, the airborne museum. That's right. And if you want one cemetery if you want cemetery without any question of the national summitry at co fill so above a mob, H. And what about a German cemetery? Job asymmetry is the place called comb. That is by far, the most of all the German cemeteries, thought it was very effective, because it reminded me let a German kits this late in the war, wasn't Hitler was like dig deep for people to fight. Yeah, indeed. So you got sixteen year olds there by twenty two thousand are in the amazing. I'm with Elwood vans eyeballed, and we're talking about day and normally landings in World War Two. And let's talk with Michael in Cincinnati. Comment on the what a powerful in experience. It is to visit at Omaha beach. You consider the blood and treasure that we left on it beach. It's such a beautiful places meticulously cared for it's a really serene, peaceful kind of visit, and, you know, there's so much history, there took my son in two thousand and five, and we just really enjoyed the experience to Mont people, by the way. That's when you look at the cemetery. Now the cemetery not was scene of fighting itself, it was a scene of Gemini placements it was a situation with fighting actually took place as you. So rightly say the serenity the calm and the piece that exists today is truly moving and I go the every day in the summer, and I never cease to be moved by visiting this amazing situation. Michael, you're just reminding people that it's a powerful pilgrimage to regard, their and remember. The heroics of that day, aren't you? Oh, is, you know, you, you see saving private Ryan and Ken burns series. And you hear from the people who are actually there, and I just can't imagine the in a nineteen year old kid and guns firing on you. I just I just can't imagine what that would be like you see the viewpoint that the Germans had on his incoming ships and it really is, you know, moving experience. It's almost ashamed for an American, I think to miss that, when they go to faults. Absolutely. All right. Michael had a good time. Thanks for your call. All right. Thank you. Landy lending all around me, as I speak. They've come in from the sea, down red white and blue parachutes suffering down just about the best thing that we've seen for a Goodman. With the seventy fifth anniversary of the d day. That'll we're glad to present you an interview we first aired on travel with Rick steves ten years ago with military historian, Ellwood onsite bold Ellwood has been providing custom tours of DJ sites for many years from his home base in Normandy. He includes information about the area and his team of guides at d day battle tours dot com. Ellwood also hosted TV specials about d day called the American road victory and the Americans on day, which you might find scheduled again on your local public TV station. When I first started traveling, there were veterans from World War, One going to done. Yes, no longer happens ten things, and I think that there's probably less interest in verdone, nothing. There was thirty years ago. A very interesting statement and I've very often question, many of mine, I can customers as to that knowledge about the American Volmer in we'll we'll want it and it's quite astounding of I would say about ninety nine percent of them have no idea that even participate. It'd in walnut tool, which is such a pity when I think back that great general pushing off to his time as of I can only spent the rest of his life, trying to make sure that the American nation. Never forgot the American, sacrificing Mobil one. And I'm afraid that all of his work seems to have been virtually in vain, and you're hopeful about World War Two I'm hopeful about what will to very much. So because let's face it, I will will was never recorded in film, in any way, the same way that cinema. Boy, it's been recorded to the French. Remember our roic in World War Two yes, they do. There's no question about the French people, especially in the nominee area ever mindful of the American sacrifice in that area. And they are, I would say without any Christian, but they always very grateful about the American sacrifice and the allied sacrifice in, in general Masci. I was just at a beautiful mum and pup Chateau in burgundy, and the aristocratic family lives, there, they pulled out their forty-eight star American flag that they flew over there. Chateau. Oh on d day when they realized the allies coming to them. Yes, it was very touching thing yesterday. And I just believe from the bottom of art that the French always will be thankful for and remember what we did with the British and the Canadians and our allies. We mustn't figure the Canadians of coal subsidy. We have Mike on the line from Georgia, any comments for Ellwood. It's just a very boring thing. I've been to Europe a couple of times and visited the cemetery and Luxembourg city, and it's just an awesome sight, just knowing the amount of sacrifice the young men so long ago, gave I haven't been to the d day area yet. Is there any recommendations that you might have if I had to day length of time to take most advantage of it, in that particular area, where would somebody sleep as a home base? What would they do if they had two days to see the best of the Normandy sites? Right. If you have two days, see the best that only sites, I would recommend that you stay in the very attractive, small town of by youth. That is a good central base from which to take, you excursions if you will by his roughly halfway down between the right in the left-hand flank, say, if you talk about the right hand flank the right Hon, thanks invasion with Sutton lease and the left hand. Flank is a place go, we stream which is way down to the British things. And by us roughly halfway between those two point. So you would strike out on day one into the American end and then strike out on day two and then do the British invasion beaches and that would be a place to base himself in by is a beautiful town, which has a another invasion history. It's got the famous bay. Oh, tapestry in days, because that was from where the Normans invaded England in one day we all know from the middle ages. Yes today. Yes. Hey, mike. Thanks for your call. We have David on the line in Pennsylvania. Doing. Good. Do you have a comment or question for Ellwood? I have had the opportunity to visit a number of different places throughout Europe. And I always make it a point to try to see many of the World War Two. Historical sites have been to France and two point the hawk in Omaha beach, and the day site. What I was really interested in finding out was with regard to the United Kingdom. Whether there are any of the airbases where the v seventeen flew from I had family members that were in a v seventeen crew and was wondering if there were any spots, still around of those airbases where you could see those, that's very interesting question. Now, you'll have to understand that I'm not an expert on US is in the UK that all remains of US vase, isn't it? That's remember that in Norfolk Suffolk that was literally hundreds of them, hundreds and hundreds of it would be a question in you'll case of finding out, which squadron, you'll relative with. And that would be. To find out the name of the joint all the name of the village, which the Adra would have been nipped and from that point, of course, then it's simply a question of getting out on the ground and going and having a look around. Now, I do know that many of the old flight control towels all of these older jams on listed property and all being restored in some instances by the local council thirties. So that for you. You do have a good chance of preps finding out the remains of the German, which from which over the b seventeen. Outstanding. Any websites or anything where that type of information could be researched you'll ever suggest would be the imperial wool museum at Duxford now ducts, but it self, of course, was a will will to f and that is the imperial will museums F oil base, if you will from, which, actually it'd be seventeen itself does fly regularly during the some of this hundreds of that cough. And that would be the place. I was suggest you go. First of all, to start your research, now there's an imperial museum actually, in London. Also, that is the best way museums in Europe date. It's awesome. Don't miss that. It's on the south Bank of the Thames. I believe, yes, also, Dover has a great World War, Two museum is the pricing legal there to see the Roman lighthouse and castle on, you realize wonderful that Britain museum in Eden camp outside of York is a prize winning museum in award winning Newseum a former prison be. I think what we got Herman prisoners, talks about the British four effort, lotta great sites in England to work into your itinerary. When you're going back there to learn about World War Two his, I'm speaking with Elwood Sibol ten. He's an Englishman, who has now moved to Normandy to follow his passion, which is help visitors understand, and appreciate the sites and the memories in the lessons from the battle of Normandy. We have dam in the phone from Bellingham, Washington. Hi, dan. Thanks for your call. Break, teen college, and we got take about two and a half months year back around full of like fun excitement. But we really want to go to Auschwitz and we're kinda wondering how to prepare for that. Is there a guided tour or should we just kind of walk around ourselves? I can probably handle Auschwitz. Then we'll talk about how do you handle this heavy duty stuff? But Auschwitz I think of all the concentration camp experiences is the most powerful. And when you go, there are audio guides there's a movie to watch, and which is actually two camps. There's original camping, and there's a huge camp nearby but can out anyone make sure you see both of those as I trip from krecko, the broader issue Ellwood. I'd like you to talk about for Dan, is you're going to Europe. It's just fun in the sun and it's late and happy. And all of a sudden you're going to go to corridor circle on town that was murdered and burned left in rebel, because of a Nazis, getting even with the local people for killing one of their officers or. You're going to Normandy beach, landing sites, you're going to a concentration camp. This how do people handle that? What advice do you have for that? The advice I have people is that you read about the events that transpired in a place, which, you know, in advance is going to be emotionally difficult for you to get to grips with. And that is the best preparation. I can say and the other thing is that always say to people that take guide if you can on my first and only visit to us fits was, I went with a guide, and that enable me to keep a hold on my motions because I switch is almost impossible to talk about the feeling which you have when you sit such on this must terrible of locations and I was afraid, I was literally afraid very prohibitive about how I would react to the situation, and this was very helpful and kept me kept me, going kept justly, me along kept things moving along. So I didn't have time to the come overruled. I've found a local guide. And I spent a whole day dies fits and, and if. I didn't think the would fascinating can be applied hit but it, it led me through the day, and I came out with a much greater understanding of switz- as a place and what it represented in what happened there. But I found if I remember right to have found a local God in Krakow, and we drove in this, God's call. And it was an extremely informative day. And that's what I would suggest you go to how that is member of rightaid Jewish center, then they will provide you with, with a top right guide who really know what that talking about new getting's, actually what happened and you'll come away a. Much rich for that experience. May I say thank you very much for your call. Ben so L would I like that idea that you would be with a person who does this routinely to keep you grounded and so on and not get too heavy about it? On the other hand, it's a it's a life changing experience to see these inspirational sites. And I celebrate the opportunity to actually come away from my trip with an understanding of, of some of the tragedies in our recent history. And I also promise myself to remember my feelings, and my emotions and go home and think of myself as more tuned in and appreciative, citizen of the planet that can really work hard to help us nerve from history and not repeat it that is the most important message of the day. I think that's remember where we've come from, and that will zeal saying goes give us an understanding of where we're going to exactly it's the best and most powerful souvenir of any visit to Normandy. I agree. I've been speaking with Elwood von cyberworld. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you very much for eight seven seven three three three seven four two five. Is our number as next, we get tips for best, enjoying the Portuguese capital of Lisbon. You can send us an Email at radio at Rick steves dot com. With a revitalized waterfront and renovated historic districts, Lisbon promises to be one of Europe's most appealing destinations this year. It's a city of around a half a million, where the Tejo river meets the Atlantic and comes packed with plenty of old world. Charm, interesting neighborhoods to explore we're joined now by guides Christina Duarte and cloudy accustomed to help you plan a trip to their beautiful city, Christina Klaudia. Welcome. India. Right. He Christina and cloudy. I noticed that. Lisbon is there's a lot of investment in the city. The waterfront is more people friendly than ever used to be an industrial wasteland. The wonderful avenue Libertad is like the shuns Elysee. It's got trees. It's got outdoor cafes. It's got new couples I love what's going on in Lisbon. What is your observation Klaudia about how Lisbon is transforming before our very eyes? I think it's very important. Well, see that we, the Eisele a local that still leaves ING the SOLAS tight. Maybe they say this is too much, and this, and that Lisbon it was important to do works not for the tortoise but for the locals itself. Yeah. So yes, they are doing lots of beautiful renovation the facades. We the tiles, the as lasers as we say the beautiful colored tile. Yes, yes, they still even when they are doing new buildings, they keep the tiles. As laser. All right. And then they are doing lots of innovation in old areas like Alfa mood media. Now seen motor you that? So they are taking actions. This is an interesting thing as Lisbon becomes more fluent and takes care of its neighborhood's gentrification. We also have the risk of becoming like the Ramblas in Barcelona where you lose all of your personality, and it becomes one big tourist shot. Christina would is Lisbon concerned about in that regard has been is right now more lively, than ever, because those areas that were residential areas, but they were pretty dark in the evening, and there was not much people around, because, you know, you leaving the place you don't go to the restaurants. I mean, you don't go to the restaurants every day home you eat at home. So we these new population coming more tourists. So more Kefalas open more restaurants. So it's good. And the cities are more lively in the evening, you'll have people in the streets until very late. Midnight, one o'clock in the morning that in the past you, not see you were kind of scared of getting our. Yes. Right now, he's fool of people on the streets in the evening. That is the good part. I fell in. Love with Lisbon in the autumn. That was the old salty sailors quarter but to be honest, now it's become less lively, and it feels like it's lost something. But there's a new neighborhood, which is kind of the new alpha can you describe moreover, yeah, exactly the other side. I'll find easing the heel of the castle between the castle and the river exactly. Overlooking the river so it means that it was through all the centuries, always the noble part of the city because it was the harbor. And it was where everything happened now mode. He we are exactly on the back of that hill. So on the north face literally where the Moore's live, exactly would that be the workers or the Lord. Outcasts emigrants. Yes, on exactly. That would be the cheaper neighborhood. Exactly long ago long time ago. Exactly because it was not that Hendi for the graver and debate, and the merchandise trade. Today. It's just bursting with little restaurant little restaurants, because when it was no longer possible to leave India, Fhimah, so gentrification started, and they had to move to somewhere and they still wanted to stay in town. So they went to the less expensive part of the city. So to the Beck of the hill to the Becca the hill. Claudia the more Moriya is this characteristic long, forgotten now, recognized colorful neighborhood. It's no coincidence. That, that's where Fahd came from. Is that correct? Yes. The father music, while I guess, by the name of it fought tumor. So it's a letting were that means the destiny, right destiny destiny. So yes, it starting those little rates those who stay was famous wasn't the most famous. Was was Molly who three good? She by the nineteen nineteen nine but nowadays, we have other very famous singers, such as Marija she's pretty famous, an a mortar. She's streets of moral RIA last year. And there was pictures on the walls of the great photo pictures on the walls of the population that those who leave their or saying the way Lisbon is doing this. This is travel with Rick steves. We're talking about Lisbon with our tour guide friends Audi pasta, and Christina Duarte are phone number's eight seven seven three three, three seven four to five and Heidi's calling in from San Diego. And Portugal couple years as a child and have had the opportunity to return many times since both recently in twenty sixteen with my in laws and my four children and my husband and they loved it. They had been to Italy. They had been to Germany. Many parts in Portugal was just wonderful. In fact, we came home. They told their relatives about it, and relatives who had usually visited Francis, also visit Portugal. What was it about it? That was so lively to them it's, it's smaller. It's a different culture. You expect it to be Europe. So you kind of thanks to typical France or what, you know middle but it's, it's different it's its own countries, and I've seen a lot of changes over the years, I visited as well which your guys alluded to when you were in Lisbon, stumble onto any good pastries. Oh my talk about pastry. One other thing. I appreciate about Portugal, and that I love probably because I if there is a child as well, but their food, and their pastries are very different people think croissants, or Strudel's that's not what they do imports. Ago, they do amazing things with eggs and just all different kinds of pastries. And that was one of the joys of taking my family that hadn't been there, there it was them to these foods. Remember? But still, the not the yet still. The not to that's the generic term for if you live anywhere in Portugal, but I sense, a little bit of Lisbon pride here Klaudia. Why did you say still blame because everyone knows the Bush still does a pace through rights might puff pastry? But still, I was the first but still the Natta. Okay, Bellamy Eze in Lisbon near the beautiful monastery there, and it was the monks that start doing the recipe for the cakes Bill. B. L E M. Correct. And there's a famous place there. They houses of these as a secret recipe. But I find all over Lisbon. There are little neighborhood bakeries that crank out this. Contest contests every year for the best of the year when gets famous, and they say they have the best pastry, but I think it's the sort of interesting dynamic where it's the best pastry because they make a lot of them they sell them hot out of the oven. Yes. And a few forget the best pastry three hours later. It's not the best you want it still hot event. And if you see a long line of local people waiting for their little fuel basical shops in downtown area, where do you find the same very good push the case. And that also, you know, worm, and they are just wonderful. Does the Belay is often a line going out s- people assume that they wanna get there? Still the Belay they go thin in the line. Well, you can go in and sit down and there will be a server that conserve your still the Belay right there. You don't eat to wait in that big long line. It's beautiful inside. That's. That's. Yes. A loco. To, you know to do what you all local. Don't tell them the secrets. Sit down. You'll be served as sort of counter intuitive, you sit down you'd be served faster than the people. Wait in lines. Oh, sugar in the cinnamon. Oh, it's so good. Heidi, you're making me. Wanna play back to Lisbon. Thanks for your call. Guides to Lisbon Christina, Duarte and cloudy accustomed as they help us get ready to enjoy their city, our number at travel with Rick steves, eight seven seven three three, three seven four to five Rachel's calling from San Jose, Rachel. Do you have a trip coming up to Lisbon do so? I will be traveling with teenagers a thirteen year old almost sixteen year old and we're gonna be spending about a month in Spain. And I have a trip to Lisbon plan for two nights. And I know that they're just going to be a little bit tired of seeing the girls in the him. So I'm I'm looking for something. That would be great for teenagers to do then, teenagers in Lisbon, first of all, I have to go to bed for Portugal, thirty days in Spain. Today's in Lisbon got revisit fair. Okay. But I'll leave that to you. Now. Let's see, you're, you're a mom with two kids, two teenagers in Lisbon Christina. All right. I like the nation spots cold buckle business owners. When we had the expo nineteen ninety. Eight he a brand new district of the city, you can visit the out or Canarian best aquarium known as a beautiful at query him. I mean, and even if they say, oh, aquarium used for children. Don't, don't you go because it's beautiful. He's magic and all that park is also magic, you can rent by those icicles and then going along the river, and you'll have some of course shopping malls into, you know, teenagers, they also like to look great shopping mall. It's, it's, it's a wonderful architecture, these true, and you know. And, you know, architect or something I just walked in there Spainish or get that. I'm talking as a mother of a fifteen year old and a twenty year old. And I know that it's not for the shopping, but they like to see what the other kids using these invoked. Get off the pain. And by the way, Rachel, this is part of the nations, and it is a big train station there metro station called orient for the orient the orient metro station, and then is it Calatrava? That's designing this hub, this very beautiful. Looks like palm trees. Or even though it is Spanish, it's very beautiful. Of course. Another thing in downtown area that they like to do is that you have now this kind of scooters that they like or they have towards actually, they are son, doors, little tuk-tuks. Yes. Or they ask them towards also with segues and the kids like to do it. But because the city's very, it's lots of Cobo stones, I wold rather visor to do the way to know the segue segue in bylane district because flat and smooth, not the thing that they will probably enjoy it is good weather. He's taking the train from Lisbon to cuss guys. So see ASC s is thirty five minutes along the river, NGO Shen. You stop in skies for the beach. And he's just lovely in just a nice break from all those fedral that you saying that you are going to see now you do have Lisbon overrun, though, by these, if you've been traveling in India, that little Texas there are three wheel Tex. Sees with a with a canopy over them. And they're kind of a noisy problem in Lisbon. But if I was a mom or a dead with two kids, I would consider hiring one of these tuk-tuks, they're independent business people, and they pretend like tour guides and you arrange for a price and if it's three people quite easy to. They actually up to six right now. They are mostly and then you have a character who's your driver? And you have this fun, little unforgettable experience on a three wheel motorcycle, and you go through town, and it's a lot of fun. And then if I can add, I think it's so, so fun to use one of the funicular cable cars. They will enjoy. It's all the time of San Francisco but speaks Portuguese and it's much. Have fun Rachel. Thanks for your call. Thank you so much. Festa and Christina Duarte are guides. This year's highlights in Lisbon Portugal on travel with Rick steves, our Email address is radio at Rick steves dot com. Christopher from Long Island New York has a question in an Email. He said to us Kristof rights. I'm taking my husband to Portugal for his fiftieth birthday. What are some of the tourist spots that embody Lisbon that we shouldn't miss, and it needs to be LGBT friendly? So that's an interesting issue. We've got a gay couple here. They're going to Lisbon. I know there are certain places in Spain that are very, very popular and famous as Gabe resorts in Lisbon is a gay couple comfortable in the street. Yes, actually, there is not a specific place at I say, well, go to these place. I recommend this place with the other because actually lease it's gay friendly. We don't put it's not even issue. Is like every restaurant will be good. Every hotel will be good and any, any bar, beautiful bar, overlooking romantic, overlooking places that I can give you a tip for sore. Straight. And where would you go for a nice romantic dinner, nice romantic dinner? I like by awhile, tone and invite. Geraldo, there is the independent that has a rooftop, that is beautiful, and you can have DNA over there and having a beautiful view over over the castle. There is also another called the roof, which is in overlooking Maria and overlooking the square and also rooftops because as we have LeBron is all done all the hills. Yeah. So the views are amazing full Abbar, if you would just go for cocktail in the end of the evening or the sunset, that is the most beautiful sunset time of the light of lease when he's the sunset, there is a hotel now called memo of Fhimah and go to the bar over there, because it's over looking the river, you think that you, you are out of the world, because it's very heated not everybody knows well now everybody will know it. Not necessarily romantic, but very beautiful dinner is I just it was my favorite discovery last year when I was in Lisbon is taking the ferry across from Lisbon to the fishing community directly across, and there's a right next to the ferry. Doctors a beautiful fish restaurant. What is the name of that town? Yes, because he'll Cossiga and they have lots of legal yet is restaurants of just get off the ferry you, turn right. And there it is. And it's got a view of the harbor of Lisbon and its fish, and it's still hungry locals. You know, there is another part of the c too, that usually, we don't mention, but I think is in my opinion. It's really nice. It's called L contra between the center in Belem hell come. L L E secretary as saying, elephant, former industrial area that's become trendy with. Have the dogs also nice restaurants little restaurants. Good fish. Also. You have view for word for ducks cast Doke the oath. He ASO VS for the dough cash, that would be this industrial. That's trendy. Now, there's so much to think about if we're going to Lisbon Gaels calling in from Albany, Oregon. Gale, thanks for your call. Yes. Got a little bit different question. We're going to be staying for two weeks in Lisbon visiting family, but not staying with them and not having a car, and where would you suggest in, what's the state of little bit longer term rentals in in Airbnb is so popular these days? And if you're staying for a while, you'll save a lot of money by not staying in a hotel and staying Airbnb recommend that. Yeah. And then you're in a little community feel like you're settling in. I don't bother with an Airbnb for one or two nights. Because I just like the hotel service. But if you're staying for couple of weeks, you wanna go shopping, and stock your pantry and feel like you live there. And you could choose a good neighborhood with Airbnb. I like Seattle. Assoc-. H. I ADA. She oh area. I like it because it's very, very walking friendly to everywhere where you want to go, and from that she Addo everything around by route to because and Katina but you have a huge choice of apartments, very nice apartments in debt. The area. All right. Gale have fun weeks in Lisbon. That's sounds great. This is traveled tricks, teach we're talking Lisbon with two guides Christina door team and cloudy, accustom. So let's just finish. Our discussion by reminding our travelers that if they want to go during festival time, there's a lot of color in food and passion. What is the best season for festivals in the spin definitely June everything happens in June? We call it all the popular saints. The patron saints celebrates its patriot saying that he sent Anthony. So the twelve to thirteen Saint John in Porto, the twenty third to the twenty four and then in Sintra in many other cities, the twenty eight to the twenty nine so the Twenty-nine off Julia, but he's also the month of Portugal, because we celebrate the day of which for, which is the ten and the whole CD of lease has the CDs celebrations. So there is color all over. Concerts all over. Also in pharma, they do the cash alpha that is just for fato. You buy a ticket for two or three days, and in different venues, you just jump from one venue to another. You can go to the, the tourist information site learn about that. And there's probably also a lot of travelers that didn't make reservations for hotels wondering around in the streets looking for a hotel. So it's a crowded time, I think, in joint, it's really fun. Because I really recommend you. It's my favorite time in Lisbon. While also has a local, it's really fun of you have some green. You have beer have sardines, have, you have lots of music. Yes. Also dance with the with the local so in Lisbon. Okay. Christina door tape cloudy, accussed. Thank you so much for helping us put our dreams into action here when it comes to visiting your beautiful. Nobody travel with Rick steves produced at Rick steves Europe and Edmonds. Washington by Tim Tatton, Heiser Kaplan, Wilner and Casimiro hall. Our website is managed by Andrew Wakeling. And our theme music is by Jerry Frank, we get promotional support from Sheila -gars off. We had editing health this week from several McCormick special thanks to the radio foundation in New York City for their help this week, you'll find guest information program extras and you can listen again on demand. Our show newts are updated weekly at Rick, steves dot com slash radio. We'll look for you again next week with more travel with Rick steves each year, Rick steves guides take thousands of free spirited travelers on the scooted to us through Europe. One small group to time this year, you can choose from both forty different fixations in Europe's best destinations from Ireland to Greece and practically everywhere in between begin your next trip at Rick steves dot. Dot com. If you're fed up with your credit cards, high interest rates, and your balances are so out of control. They never seemed to go down one call Consolidated Credit can get the relief you need. 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Just go to free ounce of creative dot com for a free crate him delivered to your door just. Pay shipping. That's free. Crate him dot com. This is the latest addition of the liberty beat find us online. Liberty beat dot news and doesn't LS dot news. Your news now continues metropolitan police in London have arrested four teenagers involved in reprehensible attack on women who were left bloodied and hospitalized after being taunted for their sexuality the mind. Unleash your born the four males age fifteen eighteen or being questioned on suspicion of robbery and aggravated grievous bodily harm or severe assault at the Cording to a statement by the police. Melanie game at hey, twenty eight year old Ryanair stewardess from Uruguay shared a photo on Facebook of herself. Enter girlfriend, Chris after they were assaulted bag group of men who began shouting at them in throwing coins. The couple had just gone on a date in Camden, and will returning home early on may thirtieth when the four men began demanding they kiss each other in front of them when the to refuse to share an intimate moment for the entertainment of the hooligans. The young men and teens beat them leaving them with serious facial injuries before also stealing their belongings, hate crimes on the mass transportation network of the UK have doubled over the past five years, according to British transport police data. In what would be the first case of its kind, a Louisiana woman allegedly died from TAC, overdose after vaping, a large amount of cannabis oil, the mind unleased, citing the New Orleans advocate reports at the otherwise healthy thirty nine year old collapsed and died in her place apartment in February due to high levels of THC, the main psychoactive compound in cannabis, that's according to Saint John Baptist Peres corner Christie money. They woman had healthy organs, and no symptoms of illness, or elevated, traces of alcohol and drugs in her body. Well THC can cause heart palpitations and extreme anxiety and some years, the federally funded National Institute of drug abuse has said that no recorded deaths have been attributable to marijuana overdose. Various experts also cast doubt on the corners claims describing his conclusion has highly unlikely, a former senior policy advisor at the White House office of national drug control policy noted that if such overdoses. Possible the growing amounts of cannabis consumption in the US would have likewise, risen support for the liberty comes from the conscious resistance network. Featuring videos news reports articles from a spiritual anarchist perspective, experience the conscious resistance at the conscious resistance dot com. How would you like to have your business featured on the liberty beat? You can just into Email to liberty beat at SNL S dot news for details. 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And then decide when you see how little they cost just have a craft for less up to fifty percent less than today's leading memory foam brand, call one eight hundred six eight nine zero zero four nine that's one eight hundred six eight nine zero zero four nine call one eight hundred six eight nine zero zero four nine. Call now. This is statewide reports and conversations from in and around annoy. I'm Shawn Crawford this hour. We find out more about a major gambling package approved in the state legislature. Those who want to wager will soon have more opportunities to do. So as the school year wraps up, visit one northern Illinois high school or students won't be returning next year. It's being deactivated. Will explain flying insects are prevalent this spring. What's behind the swarms we're seeing also an iconic restaurant brand. They got it start hearing Eleanor facing some tough times planes, MAG dab in a very competitive from being national players. Right. You know that had huge. Region. Big marketing dollars all the way down to a local or regional chains or even independent burger place. The problems at stake in shake that in more on today's statewide. Steve Olvey for the Illinois Broadcasters Association. And in a recent survey, the Illinois emergency management agency, was asked to name the top five items that every Illinois family needs to have in their homes, emergency disaster. Kick check out these answers water Katya. Without it number two non perishable food, well after all man got eat. Right. Number three weather radio. It makes sure you got fresh batteries to number four flashlight. Even more reason to have fresh batteries oil head number five first aid kit. Look, there's no reason to feud over what items to put in your family's emergency disaster kit. Get the answers and more at ready dot Illinois dot Google. That's ready dot Illinois dot gov. Sponsored by the emergency management agency, aired in cooperation with the Broadcasters Association and this station. Welcome to statewide. I'm Shawn Crawford coming up. We'll recap the busy into the spring legislative session including what happened at the state house, and how it will impact you also flying insects spent much time outside, you've probably been dealing with a nuisance of mosquitoes in Nance. They've been especially bad this spring. Find out why talk to an intimacy gist that more this hour on statewide. Shane restaurants love moving into downstate, Illinois steak and shake was that rare unicorn the chain restaurant that downstate sin out to the world, but eighty five years after its founding in normal steak and shake. And I kinda brand is in trouble. Brian Denham has more on that. Our story begins with Gregg snodgrass, who started staking shake as a bus boy, in nineteen seventy nine Bloomington normal. It's career grew is the company did, and other local staff would travel the country to help open new locations and trained staff on the steak and shake culture quality service and cleanliness fifteen minutes before ship started in uniform inspections, and the whole nine yards was really something that we all took pride in. It was fun. But by two thousand and eight bit wasn't fun anymore. Snodgrass was a district manager, then overseeing nine locations between Bloomington and Paducah. Kentucky snodgrass says the new owner big lorry holdings was cutting wages and Benny. If it's part of a recession era discounting survival plan, so snodgrass left today. Those changes have brought steak and shake to the brink sales of sunk dozens of locations of closed employee lawsuits of piled up. And some are speculating that a major contraction or worse is near heartbreaking quite, obviously dedicated over thirty years of my career, to help build that company and help build relationships. And when you walk into the restaurants and services that good the cleanliness isn't there. The quality of the food is still there. The other things that really isn't sticking to me steak and shake is one of Bloomington. Normal most famous exports right up there with state farm, and beer nuts. Gus and Edith belt open the first location at main street in Virginia avenue normal in nineteen thirty four their family sold the company in nineteen sixty nine and it's changed hands many times since then today steak and shake has five hundred eighty locations in his based in Indianapolis and owned by Texas based big Lori. Holdings? They'll camp into McLean county museum of history says another locally grown company that followed a similar path was Eureka Williams which became Electrolux and then moved away blue into normal given kind of its vibrancy throughout its history has produced corporations brand names that are known throughout the country. Sometimes in some cases of the world, and some of those still have local ties and some do not there are a few remnants of the steak and shake legacy that have survived here chain still has four restaurants in town. You originally, one on main street, though, is now a monocle another location is now Keller's iron Skillet Kemp says gusts and Edith belts, built steak and chips brand on the steak burger Gus Val was known to make quite a show of that. He would actually wheel in a barrel, and some of the early stores full of sir lines are t bones, and then that would be ground, right? On-site so customers could see what was going into their steak. Burgers, cleanliness was also a selling point. Their slogan was incite it must be. Right. The idea was if you can see the food being made. So the grill cooks were out there in the open through glass, windows and originally, the meat was ground, on site. That was an indication that things around the out there. That was a long time ago today. The company is owned by Sardar big Laurie young investor who emigrated to the US from around he took over steak and shake in two thousand eight amid the great recession. He discounted relentlessly famously offering meals under four dollars, and it worked sales soared. He seemingly could do wrong. That's Greg Andrews, who's covered the company extensively as editor of the Indianapolis business journal. And worked in work, and that about two thousand sixteen it stopped working and the company has continued to really slide since then critics say the customer experience slipped. And so, did the service all the discounting comes at a cost steak and shake also faced a new challenge from growing fast, casual chains like Chipotle, Panara? Jason's deli younger consumers willing to pay more in the race to the bottom for value was ending. That's according to Dani Klein, who covers steak and shake for the QSR food trade magazine either plan on one side of convenience or you're, you know, going kind of higher end with some of these upscale fast castles, or or sit down scenes, or find dining people. They're taking share like that, so steak and six case, they're sort of now at a point where the not really, you know, the not really offering either of those owner Sardar. Big Lori is a mysterious figure who does not do media interviews. He didn't respond to requests for comment from GM. Lt. His only public comments typically come in his annual shareholder letters in his two thousand nineteen letter big Laurie conceded that they, quote, a ruinously stayed with a quick, -ment kitchen, design, that was ill suited for volume production and that the effect was high cost labor intensive slow service. He says they failed customers by not being fast and friendly. They paid the price for that stay and shakes revenue last year declined three and a half percent. What big lorry himself called a significant disappointment during the first quarter twenty nineteen same store sales fell almost eight percent, ten straight quarterly decline, even as other similar restaurants. Saw growth. David hankins is with Technomic research and consulting firm for the restaurant industry. I mean they're playing smack dab in a very competitive sets from big national players. Right. You know, that have huge huge reach and being marketing dollars, and, you know, all the way down to small local or regional chains or even, you know, independent burger places Hank. Says steak and shake isn't doing much to differentiate itself, not that it's, you know, the death knell for the chain. But it's, it's certainly a challenge for them to grow out of that without doing something different something different is an ambitious strategy that big lorry laid out earlier this year. He wants to franchise off all four hundred company owned restaurants franchisees will only have to put up about ten thousand dollars. It's a bargain in the industry, and they'll pay fifteen percent of sales, and fifty percent of profits back to steak and shake in franchisees can only own one restaurant that's similar to the Chick-fil-A model geared toward hands on franchise ownership experts. Tell g LT that retroactively turning restaurant chain into an all franchise model bit unusual and to prepare for it steak and shake his temporarily closed dozens of stores that will theoretically be franchised, including some in Peoria. But when a restaurant temporarily closes restaurant journalists Danny Klein says they tend not to reopen haven't seen anybody offer. Other franchise. Is for ten thousand dollars in the time that I've been here in the whole and everything they're doing right now is pretty uncommon. So I guess we don't really know how it's gonna turn out also faces a big challenge in court nearly fifteen hundred steak and shake managers across the country have sued the company claiming that were improperly classified as salary employee's in not compensated for the overtime. They worked around two hundred eighty managers from the Saint Louis area. We're just awarded seven and a half million dollars in the first of two lawsuits. The second pending lawsuit has just under twelve hundred plaintiffs including around four hundred from Illinois, that's according to their attorney, Brendan Donnellan of Kansas City, Missouri Donald says these managers were making only thirty two thousand forty thousand dollars a year, and we're doing much of the same work as lower level, hourly employees was just plug in the whole each and every shift. And I think it's pretty easy to figure out that if you're not having to pay the hourly people overtime to do all this work or to have extra hourly people there. And you're paying one person, just to set dollar amount to work, seventy hours a week. It's, it's, it's a big cost, cutting and savings measure for a company cases without merit and intends to defend these cases vigorously over Donald says the company is set for settlement talks with plaintiffs from both cases in early June. So does this all add up to the end for steak and shake? Gregg Andrews, who covers the company from Indianapolis says stay can shake has about one hundred eighty four million dollars in debt that it's supposed to pay off in March of twenty twenty one. At the moment. So it really doesn't have the ability to pay that off. If it starts to turn it around then lenders would probably give it a lot more breathing room. But if it's in a tailspin, which is what it really is in today that, that put force taking check into bankruptcy significant retraction, fewer locations. Maybe more likely Dani Klein says it's not uncommon today to see restaurant chains retract pretty dramatically Applebee's is one recent example of this type of scale, and you know, guest affinity and history. And the fact that they were on a really good run there for, you know, pretty good period of time, I would be surprised to see them go bankrupt, but I would also say it's definitely not nothing ever impossible possible in this industry restaurants or such a such a fluctuating kind of business. Brennan Donlan the attorney who represents the managers says it's hard to speculate about the company's financial health because steak and shake is just one part of the. The glory holdings portfolio. The glory also owns maxim magazine, and the western Susan restaurant chain among other investments to look at that. And then decipher exactly, which of that are sticking shake assets, and stay shake liabilities things along those lines. So I it's, it's always a concern in all of my cases, but it's hard for me to speculate here, whether or not, it's going to have a big impact on our on our verdict. And on our second lawsuit. Greg snodgrass, the busboy who became a district manager gave the company other chance himself he returned from two thousand ten two thousand thirteen but it wasn't enjoyable anymore. He says the family friendly atmosphere was gone. He left again. Just there's some talk that they may even just filled up and go away. Which I hope that's happened Sardar. Big Laurie says it will take three years for the refranchising plan to be completed that was Ryan denim with that reports and read more about the problems with the restaurant chain stake in shake. There's a link better website statewide show dot com. The following ad contains shocking. Material listener discretion is advised is someone in your family playing a dangerous game of Russian roulette over forty three thousand people Daiei from drug overdose a hundred and twenty people a day, five people every hour, one person every twelve minutes, eight thousand people die every year from alcohol abuse over two hundred forty people a day, ten an hour, one person every six minutes somebody, you know, maybe next learn how to help someone you love getaway from the drugs, alcohol and bad influences with the FM. LA people can take leave of absence from their job and still keep it. Call now and learn how we can help you eight hundred seven oh seven nine seven owned nine eight hundred seven seven nine seven nine that's eight hundred seven oh seven ninety seven Oneida. Nine. If you've been outside this spring, you've probably noticed more flying insects like gnats mosquitoes in some areas. People are having to fight off swarms Nick cider is a research assistant professor of field. Crop in Tamala. She at the U of is department of crop sciences. And I had a chance to talk with them. And I assume that some of the reason we're seeing so many of these bugs right now is because of the wet spring. Yeah. That, that, right. And there's a, there's a variety of different insects, especially different types of wise, of course, mosquitoes are a are a type of fly, that's the one that we're most worried about. That's the one where when we have a lot of standing, and especially stagnant water out there from some of these heavy rains, and from some of these flooding events. That's lots of great breeding sites for mosquitoes. There's also a variety of other insects that aren't necessarily biting insects, some midges, and different other types of small flies. Is that can do the same thing? They'll breed in developing that standing water, they won't necessarily by people, but they can't be more of a nuisance. But the, the primary one we're going to be worried about is mosquitoes in the standing water. And then in areas where there's more running water more flowing water like when the rivers are high, and that kind of thing you can't see an increase in buffalo NATs, which are different type of fighting fly. I feel like I've seen a lot of the buffalo nets in here in central Illinois. A few years back. We seem to also have quite a few of those and then after a couple of weeks that subsided. Do you expect the same thing to happen? Here, does it depend on the weather. It does depend on the weather, but it is seasonal also. They do tend to subside. Once the real heat of the summer comes on big issue with puff, low nance's that regular insect. Repellents aren't quite as affected against them. They're also quite painful. But then, of course, for from -squitoes the best thing you can do for yourself is to get a good insect, repellent, use that when you go outside, just to avoid being bitten, the other thing you can do for mosquitoes is to remove sources and standing water, especially in your home tire swings or one that gets talked about a lot, you know, bird baths or another one lot of times though those sources of standing water that are out there just need to be just need to be refreshed every once in a while you have to for that water out if it's something like a bird bat, where you want water in it just refreshed that water. So that insects aren't Bella thing, particularly in -squitoes on developing in well, you said the insect repellent, if you go to the store, there's all sorts of claims made by different ones. Is there something that people should look for ingredient wise at least that is, is the best for folks to use with mosquitoes there, several that are affected the one that I've had the most luck? With our repellents that contain D D ET for buffalo dance. I, I don't know that I'm as quick to evaluate them. I know there are some effective products on the market for that insect. When, when I hear people talk about a lot of mosquitoes and concerns over that, of course, part of that is not just the nuisance of having them around and being bitten by them. But also the concerns about disease is that something that you're watching this time of the year with, you know, with that many around are we concerned, we're going to see a big year for these types of diseases that are carried by mosquitoes? That's always a risk. And we're we're left in the mid west, but we don't have a tremendous number of mosquito borne illnesses in humans, we do have several types of theft lightest, including West Nile virus is probably the most well known of those, and I don't know if it's the most common that, that certainly the most well known. So certainly good reason to protect yourself from the -squitoes also important to not forget about. Your pet heartworms for instance are spread by mosquito bites in, in dog. So it's a good idea to take your animals to the vet. Make sure their medications up to date on that. You're attacking Mems. Well can nets also carry you disease. And can they be a health problem as well in terms of spreading disease in Illinois? It's really mosquitoes, and then picks which aren't aren't an insect. But are, you know in order to pod and Cam spread lime disease and some other things? That's another one. You wanna bet yourself against anytime. You're out in tall grass, but that's not one that's going to be necessarily favored by all this water. But mosquitoes, the primary threat when we're talking about lies when we're talking about insects that are favored by a lot of water like, what we have in the state right now, Nick cider is a research, assistant professor at the U of is department of crop sciences. Some good advice. Protect yourself and your animals. If you're spending time out. Outside cider says mosquitoes might be more prevalent in central and southern Illinois right now. But soon there will be plenty in northern Illinois as well. We'll have more of statewide coming up. We'll look at what state lawmakers did and didn't do in their spring legislative session. That's on the way. Indeed knows finding the right. Hire takes time away from your business. Hiring a qualified data engineer felt like a second job, more job seekers use indeed than any other sites. So there's no better place to find someone with the skills you're looking for needed someone with a masters in computer science and database experience, plus indeed screener questions. Help you find your shortlist fast now I'm back to having just one job. See, when more than three million companies worldwide use indeed to hire post your job at indeed dot com slash hire indeed, the world's number one job site source cons gore, total visits, no one ever said give it a bit. No one ever said, give it less. We say give it everything. The world wasn't built by half-measures by the half-hearted. So when we set out to build our boldest SUV ever, we didn't hold anything back. Introducing the all new telluride Kia give it everything expected spring, twenty nineteen in limited. Quantities back on statewide. I'm shawn. Crawford ahead. We'll find out about a major expansion of gambling in Illinois and will break them with the legislation will do later, the final classes for knowing high school. We'll take a Bizet there. It's all coming up. After years of struggling to enact a historic overhaul at the state school funding structure. It would only lawmakers this session focused on other major initiatives like abortion, cannabis casinos, and a new income tax system. But public schools are facing another growing problem that lawmakers have not quite figured out how to fix our education. Reporter, dusty Rhodes explains radio, we try not to spend a lot of numbers because those tend to go in one ear and out the other. So let's just say when the general assembly adjourned, if you days ago, public schools were set to receive eight point eight billion dollars virtually every penny. They requested, but there are some problems money, alone, can't solve the biggest discussion over the capitol for k twelve education really focused around the teacher shortage. That's Amanda, Elliott director of legislative affairs for the state board of education. This is something that has been discussed for the last several years. And yet, the shortage already severe is getting. Worse Cording to a recent survey. More than eighty five percent of school. Superintendents say they have trouble hiring teachers last year the legislature passed a law that allowed for reciprocity. So now anyone who holds a teacher license in another state automatically qualifies for credential here that chain brought Illinois at twenty percent bump in applications this year? The conversation really focused around testing, we had two bills passed that eliminate the basic skills test. That's a test introduced in the nineteen eighties. It's been revamped three times making increasingly difficult, seventy five percent of potential teachers flunked the test, which means they aren't, even allowed to take teacher prep courses lawmakers also considered eliminating the two other big tests required for a teaching license. There are different interruptions of bills, that were filed that eliminated content tests, and the teacher performance us meant altogether. But eventually, we landed on just eliminating the basic skills. Test and studying content tests cow Thompson is assistant regional superintendent of seven county area in eastern, Illinois, and he has so many teacher vacancies. He traveled to Springfield to testify against what he regards as excessive teacher testing twice. He says killing that basic skills. Test just isn't enough for all the effort that was put in throughout this spring session. I just don't feel like we came out with enough solutions, or as great of an impact as we could have and should have. Colleges that run teacher preparation programs their officials showed up in mass to testify against the Bill Thompson supported, which would have eliminated all three tests. Room and then ten or twelve different university professors or deans or whatever went up instead around that table for you were in the room and that was the group that, you know, was advocating essentially for status quo Elliott, whose job is essentially to act as the embassador in charge of negotiations between lawmakers in the state board. Admits more changes are needed eliminating the basic skills test, I think will help but it is only one small component. We really need to have additional conversations about other barriers to the teaching field. I think another Bill that passed that will help the teachers to the minimum teachers salary Bill making sure that teachers are paid what they deserve. I think is important and will hopefully help encourage more people to come to the field. Other things that need to be looked at include pensions, working conditions respect to the profession. Those are all really big rocks that will take time to evaluate in address in her calm. Medic tone. She points out that one, you measure requires the state board to review content area tests to see whether some need to be updated or scrapped Thomson whose job includes helping find teachers for schools. In twenty five rural districts sounds more like that student who legitimately needs, a fidget spinner. I feel like we're always creating taskforce and forming committees. It just I feel like it just takes so long and every year we do this. It's just another year of our, our lives in our effort, just not feeling position in rural areas. You know, and so, like I get I'm sure they'll do the task force. I'm sure they'll come up with solutions. I hope I guess, just baffled. They just don't think all the people that were in such opposition to all these changes. I don't think they realize how bad it is. You can read about other education plans considered by lawmakers, this session can check out dusty. Full reports. It's available. There's Lincoln or website, statewide, show dot com. State lawmakers also passed a major gambling expansion in Illinois. And daisy contrasts followed that action. She joins me out, Phyllis, all in on what to place, one of the big parts of this gambling expansion. Daisy had to do with sports, wagering, you'll be able to do that in Illinois soon. What do we know about that right now? So horse racing tracks casinos in certain sporting venues, will get the opportunity to purchase a license to offer sports, wagering these will be for the brick and mortar licenses. And if those casinos, racetracks partner up with a vendor for online betting than both the in person and mobile bedding can't take place, as soon as the Illinois gaming board. Accepts the applications in vets them. Now what if you don't have a casino? And if you wanted to offer only online betting, well, you'd have to wait several months before you can apply for one of the three of able online licenses and from what I'm told this will be a very competitive selection process, because the gaining board has to make sure the upper -tunities given to businesses owned by minorities. Women veterans and people with disabilities. But there are the big companies like fan duel and draft kings who might want to get in on the action too so more, because they if they partner up with the casino right now, for example, to offer all, wagering, they have to operate on their the casino brand name. So they wanna get their name out there. So they're going to have to wait for that. We've seen gambling expanded Illinois going back. Well going back to the state lottery. And then, of course later came riverboat gambling. It's moved on to having gambling right in your own neighborhood with some of these video machines that are in bars and restaurants. But this was a big step sports betting. Yeah, it really was because a year ago, the USO premium court allowed it to be regulated outside of Nevada. So states jumped in on the opportunity and several states have already done that. I mean, also good to mention gambling on sport on college sports will not be allowed on their this, this Bill and professional sports leagues will not get a cut of the money. Unheard a timeframe for sports betting to actually take off in Illinois to where you could actually go and make your bet. But we think it's going to be pretty soon. Right. The governor signs the legislation. The Illinois gaming board will probably start accepting applications. They will go through a vetting process, and once that happens if the casinos have the capacity to start offering it, then it should be off the ground. Pretty soon would be both football season even. So along with that six new casinos. And when we say, new casinos, is that what we're actually talking about here that they these are going to be these big operations like we've seen in other towns. I know for sure that the one in Chicago would that is one of the most notable places Rockford in southern Illinois in what's known as Walker's bluff, one in south in the south Chicago suburbs danville, in what Keegan now to see the extent of how big they will be, we don't know. I mean, they have the option not to build a casino, but Rockford in carterville labor groups lobbied, hard in Springfield this session, and the they have in many other sessions just to make sure that they could get on this list. They argued at the upper -tunities would help them. Create jobs, not just ring the construction of their projects. But also, once the casinos are established they'll be able to have people employed from the community, people might be surprised to know that Springfield does not have a casino. Always think of it as a pretty politically connected tone. But it's also included in here with a. Little special addendum for the city of Springfield for the state fairgrounds. Slot machines will be allowed at the state state, fair grounds, the, the, the mayor here, lobbied for a casino, but we Springfield and not make the list horse treks. They have for years complained about loss of, of customers, because people coming in there to bet on the horses because of casinos, they feel as though they've been in competition and not they've not been winning that competition through the years was there something in here for straps as well. I mean, not only will they get the opportunity to offer sports gambling, which old, the different gaming industries. Really wanted us a new industry to help them attract more gamblers, but the horse trucks will also get the permission permission to have lots and table games on their premises basically casino, tile games, and these will get up to twelve hundred positions from the ones that we they I mean, they don't have right now that will be enough to help boost that industry, which it does create. Jobs. There's no other people that raise the horse's feed for the horses all of that. But they think this will be enough. They were here in Springfield. A lot of them saying exactly that, that this will help create jobs, and attract more people does anything in this change video gambling. Like we see at again as bars restaurants, places like that we see a lot of it and has become quite popular in many communities, anything change because of this legislation under the plan video gambling machines, will be okay for larger truck stops the maximum bed was also increased. Maybe something that wasn't supported by the video gaming industry. Is that the Texas increased from the current thirty percent at thirty three percent in the first year and thirty percent in the second year and moving forward? So what the industry will saying that it was going to hurt these video gaming operators. Especially the smaller ones. And these you've covered this quite a bit through the session, and watched the ups and downs of this legislation all the way till it got passed. But when it comes to gambling legislation in the past, we also call it quite often. Christmas tree bills, because people start jumping on and we saw this time as well. Lot of things get thrown in it often collapses under that weight. It's almost too big. Well, it didn't collapse this time. We know why that was the case gaming expansion. Bill is attached to a forty five billion dollar capital plan for construction projects. And I think that was one of the main things here that got many lawmakers to vote in favour, so all of the revenue from this expansion will go toward that fun to specifically help with vertical construction project, so maintaining any state owned buildings like prisons in universities and anything from licensing fees to the tax increases on video gaming, for example, we'll go to that. I think that in the beginning, like you said, some lawmakers many stakeholders wanted to keep the sports gambling plan out of the bigger bigger. Plan out of fears that it would collapse. But I also think many lawmakers both Republican and democrat understood the need for this capital Bill, something that we haven't had for many years. And if the entire package was going to offer some help with that. And if some of it would also help with job creation, many were willing to vote in favour. And I think it, it took a lot of negotiation at the end. So this big package gets through the governor's indicated he's on board with it. Where does that put when it comes to other states? I've heard somebody use the freeze the Vegas of the midwest heard the same thing to over the last several days neighbors, like Iowa and Indiana already legalize sports betting in the last few weeks. I wa has nineteen casinos while Indiana has thirteen Ohio, has eleven would we would have sixteen under this expansion, Illinois also has also has also increased the gaming positions? So I think while we have a long way to go to catch up to Nevada. I think a lot is happening at one. Under this expansion, Bill and maybe that's why it seems like there's just so much going on with gambling. We'll continue to watch it as it rolls out and sports betting as well rolling out here in Illinois soon. That's daisy, contrarius. Thanks a lot daisy for following this for us and taking a few minutes here on statewide. Thanks for having me. If you've just tuned in to the middle of state by you can find a complete episode. That's one and all our past episodes at St. live show dot com. And you can also sign up for our weekly podcast through NPR's. General assembly finished what by most accounts wasn't a story session from the legalization of marijuana to the massive expansion of gambling. Lawmakers made significant changes to the state, and we thought we'd listen back to some of the voices that made news in the final week of the twenty nineteen legislative session. It's been a long year. Get a lot of emotions that have gone on in this chamber. This is an opportunity to fix the problems of Illinois and begin reestablishing the essential services that government is supposed to deliver here. We are debating a constitutional to hike taxes. When wild hop says L noise tax burden is the highest in the nation. These definitions seem overly broad, and I am certain that most doctors if their incentive is to perform an abortion would be able to find some kind of loophole here to figure that out. I am disgusted by the propaganda that is out there suggesting that any woman late in her pregnancy, or even after giving birth as I've heard from some and then decide just don't want this child and simply end its life. If we are going to do this, we must ensure that black and Brown communities that had been divested in that. Have been locked up had been castigated to the side had to be central to this policy. And that is what we had in this Bill. We can disagree Mr President on tax policy and environmental policy, but we can all get on the same page. I hope that what we don't want to do at this time and place is to do something that will make it more likely that more of our citizenry will at some point developmental illness. It's amazing what we can do around here, just a few hours of people are willing to work together, and we just started doing that. So I feel good path and I'm pleased to put my vote on the board tonight and let's get our work done by tomorrow. We know that as we continue to work collaboratively. That is what we indeed. Wanna do we work collaboratively? There are a lot of things that we can indeed get done. And so we have a situation where many of our buildings, our state buildings are in a state of poor repair that needs to be remedied now I know it's difficult to pay for that infrastructure. But anybody who's traveled our roads knows that we've been shortchanging that investment for years tonight. We had a very difficult vote, but a necessary vote because if our infrastructure crumbles are rural economy crumbles with it as backed by business. It's backed by labor and it's backed. By contractors, as well as transit officials. We're authorizing six casinos Chicago, Keegan south suburbs, Williamson county or Walker's bluff is known Rockford in danville. I I've only been. I've only been doing this for twenty years, trying to get this done, and it's a little emotional, and a half to say this has been a job creation Bill from day one. If we were bringing in six new manufacturers town, everybody would be on board. We'll guess what? We're putting six types of manufacturing on for they're going to generate money for the state. They're going to generate employees. They're going to generate economic development not only in those communities. But the state of Eleanor y'all newts or iota, raff, four asks, what if what if your ride was refined Rudd at the same time introducing the all new four high two hundred eight combined horsepower, and standard all wheel drive, make it the most powerful Raffour plus with its head turning style and breakaway speed. It's bound to change the way you think of hybrid, y'all. Knew rat for hybrid so Yoda. Let's go. Places horsepower ratings achieve required premium unleaded gasoline with an octave rating of ninety one. Premium fuel was not use the forms with freeze. Right now. You can get both sprints unlimited plan and the all new Samsung galaxy S ten -cluded for just thirty five dollars per month for line for five lines. All you need is approved credit and eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one fifty dollars a month after twenty to fifty my credit applied within two bills remain unbalanced of six thirty twenty eight thirty dollars per month per line for five lines data deprioritization during additions, be maximum mistress. Apply.

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Preventing Burnout in Health Care

Let's Talk Addiction & Recovery

13:44 min | 1 year ago

Preventing Burnout in Health Care

"Hello and welcome to. Let's talk a series of podcasts produced by the Hazel and Betty Ford Foundation on the issues that matter to us and the issues that we no matter to you as well well substance use disorders prevention research treatment and recovery support. I'm your host William Moyers and today we're coming to you from on the road. At the campus of the Ford Center in Rancho Mirage. California joined by my friend and colleague Josias Jesse. Welcome Joseph Thank you William Pleasure to be here. You're the the executive director of medical and professional education and our topic for today is preventing burnout in healthcare professionals. You mean to tell me that healthcare professionals channels can burn out. It's hard to believe William but healthcare professionals can in fact burn out over the course of my career and I'm sure over the course of your career and others one one thing I've seen more than ever as how hard health professionals work day. In and day out we put in long hours where essentially surrounded by individuals who are suffering hiring who are living with challenges. And we're trying to help them see the light at the end of the tunnel. Were trying to help them find that resilience find that happiness find some balance. It's in their lives so that they can be as productive as possible. And so one thing that I've really found important over. The course of my career is working with healthcare providers. That are are stressed out that are burned out because I quite frankly don't Wanna see them resort to unhealthy habits. I don't WanNa see them have to end up in treatment if possible. I'm I really want them. To find some active balance in their lives. Based off of what they're doing in the workforce and then what they're doing their families and what I've noticed is you. Yeah you probably see this. In a lot of our settings you see a lot of healthcare providers and treatment I see lots physicians. I see lots of nurses I see lots of pharmacists. I see lots of physician assistance. I see lots of social workers. I see lots of addiction counselors people that love helping others at neglect to themself. And so they're coming into the office early every day. They're on the computer charting outside of their small group in one on one individual session times the working late hours into the evening. They're going going home taking care of their significant others their children and they're doing that over and over and over again and I found this so important Britain is I work a lot of the time with family law lawyers judges and working with judges. I would watch them day in and day out in the courtroom and what they would see in front were people that were living with addiction. It's like eighty ninety percent of the cases presented in courtrooms involve alcohol or drugs of some sort. And so here they were. They would hear these stories. And what would they do would go home at the end of the day and they would stuff the emotions and stuff the feelings and come back the next day and do it all over again and they would live with things like like vicarious trauma they would live with things like like sadness and remorse. They wouldn't get to see a lot of light at the end of the tunnel. It's not like individuals for coming back to the judges and saying thank thank you so much judge you really helped influence and impact me. They're usually not seeing individuals the best of times and so we started providing educational experiences for judges judges first and foremost to help them with sentencing people to treatment as opposed to sentencing them to prison or jail. As you know drug courts have been incredibly successful zestful over the years and helping not just reform people but helping them get clean and sober stay clean and sober. Then you would look at a different professionals like clergy right people would go to their churches or their synagogues and they would share with individuals about their drinking and about they're using people that would run these churches or synagogues or her or other religious experiences within stuff those emotions and listen to all these horrible things all day and sometimes they would drink at the end of the day. And like if you're or a judge or a lawyer or clergy person and you're hearing the stuff day in and day out and you start drinking. What are you living with your living with shame? You're living with guilt. You're living with remorse. You're living with secrets. And so we started seeing all the stress and some burnout in clergy. She judges and lawyers. And then you'd see your your peers your healthcare providers working these long hours all day to and I would see it in medical settings things all the time too and it would always start in the home and they try to keep it quiet right significant others try to cover up the addiction or cover up the mental. Oh health illness and then it would progress to the point where would make its way to the office and in the office. You're surrounded by support staff. You're surrounded by assistance. You're surrounded by others. Oh doc didn't have any alcohol on his breath that was from the night before or oh you know. He's got black circles under his eyes. Doctor just worked so so hard here so we had this this underlying alcoholism and drug addiction. That was taking place and people were trying to cover it up over and over again in the sad reality. -ality is that people would would only seek help when they were caught when they would actually have board action against this well they would have consequences and and so we started doing things like clinical diagnostic evaluations to help people get medical write ups and psychiatric right Alps clinical right ops. We started talking to them about setting leading belt the boundaries and about taking care of themselves we started sharing with them the consequences to what could in fact happen if they don't stop drinking they don't stop using using. We started showing them other individuals that were going through the same struggles. I mean if you work with healthcare providers when you put them in a group together they tend to call each other out on their be asked. They tend to hold each other accountable. They tend to be able to relate better. You have specialty groups nowadays like birds of a feather for pilots lots of pilots and treatment. You've got specialty. Groups nowadays called the other bar lots of lawyers in treatment you've got specialty groups called Kadusha S- meetings for medical it professionals and then you've got professional groups for other individuals like police officers firefighters. I A lot of twelve step meetings. Let's say I have a loved one. That's it's going into surgery tomorrow. If I'm sitting next to a surgeon that's practice while under the influence and they're sharing about that in my twelve step meeting. I might be having second thoughts about my loved one going into surgery tomorrow. I'm so we have these safe environments these specialty meetings that are all over the world for people to share their stories as well so and and looking at our peer groups looking out burnout and looking at stress and looking at addiction which again is so prominent in our field and and healthcare as a whole we simply we wanna make sure that they realized there are resources available and now we're there for them and that it's okay to ask for help right and that it's okay to ask for help because you know here we are. We think we know everything we think we have all the answers and all this training and all the schooling and and I'm supposed to be the subject matter expert. How do I reach out for help? How do I go to somebody and allow myself to be vulnerable and allow myself to say? Hey you know what I'm hurting right now and the fact of the matter is that it's okay ask for help. I mean oftentimes no matter what it is but particularly healthcare professionals are those who were successful in business successful in law they feel vulnerable vulnerable and asking for help right they do and I think that they're afraid to ask for help. And they don't realize that there are services available to them and it's not the end of the world it's not the end of the world. They need to seek help for addiction. I've had medical students go through. Our programs are Summer Institute for Medical Students whereby they're actually in treatment at our facilities so what. He's learning about addiction. The individuals living with it. Who then go on to residency and end up back in our facilities as patients to three years later interesting and they look me in the eye and they see Joseph thank goodness? I had that experience at your Sims program. Because I wouldn't have gotten here's the soon I might have never thought I had not a problem. I wouldn't have introspectively look inward and asked myself some questions. I went out of sought help. I might not have realized that it wasn't so alone. And so we see that nowadays we see I mean. I don't know fifteen. Twenty percent of our patient. Population could be licensed healthcare professionals. And I'm proud of that. Yes I'm really proud of that because I know that those individuals are going to have a profound impact on healthcare and on the world as a whole through getting helped sooner than later. Joseph we have a couple of minutes but talked talked a little bit about the impact that the opioid epidemic has had on healthcare professionals. And I think specifically about those who are working in emergency rooms or first responders who were out reviving driving people who are overdosing the streets and so on what has been the impact of the OPIOID epidemic. So if you if you look at Hazelden Betty Ford as a whole right seventeen sites in nine states right right now. Twenty four thousand patients. We're going to serve this year if you go and look at what. They're diagnosed with nowadays as far as substance use disorder goes. You're seeing. Opiates in like thirty. Thirty plus percent of our cases. That's a huge number if you turn back the clock ten fifteen twenty years ago. It's two three four times what it used to be. You're seeing the same same thing with regards to our healthcare professionals when I see healthcare providers come on in and their primary diagnosis is an opiate use disorder. I'm not surprised anymore. I always almost expect them to say alcohol use disorder or opiate use disorder. Because there's such ease of access to getting those. Opiates a lot of times. Opiates are being over prescribed. So they're more readily available than ever for a lot of our individuals that are healthcare providers they have the financial means to continue to support their habits or their usage. Wjr so that happens as well. I mean we go to George Washington University or to Washington. DC area all the time. And everybody's talking about opiates because they're killing people. I always viewed. Alcohol is the slow killer. Opiates has the Fast Keller. And that's just so sad that we've classified them in a certain way because at the end of the day if people don't get help for these use disorders they're gonNA die. You've got this progressive disease right now and I think for healthcare providers a lot of times. We think we're invincible. We think we know better. We think we no how to prescribe these medications or how much we can use. We treat ourselves a lot of the time I mean here. You've got an addicted professional. WHO's treating others who thinks they can treat eight themselves at the same time? It's the biggest oxymoron in the world. So I think our advocacy efforts are huge so that we can help other public. Health Officials President President National Institute of Drug Abuse National Alcohol Abuse and alcoholism Samsa Mercer all the other large public organizations. I mean their eyes have been opened but more people continue to die that we need to to do better and we need to do more and we need to do it now. I know they're going to be people who are watching or listening to this podcast specifically because they know they have an issue sure they have a family member who's a health care professional who has an issue. We've got two minutes give us two or three or four action steps that healthcare professionals can take to get help for themselves for somebody who works in their office or their healthcare profession. My number one recommendation is. It's never too late to get help. And you don't have to have this myriad of consequences you don't have to get a Dui you don't have to get reported to the board you don't have to get caught. You can seek out. Help help yourself. It's not the end of the world address. The issue now sooner rather than later and move forward with your life helping war individuals than you ever could have so so. I really want people to realize that stigma still alive. And well we look at people with substance use disorders at times negatively like a hindrance on the world. And that's just it's not true. Individuals substance use disorders are resilient people that want a better life for themselves and their families so with our healthcare providers. I hope they see that. I hope they see and realize that if they get help sooner than later they can help profoundly impact and influence thousands of individuals more so than they could if they continue to drink and to continue to use and the fact of the matter is is that oftentimes you know this. You've told me about this before. And we see it on. Units healthcare professionals are among the group that has a very high success rate right once they get into treatment they have their rates are recovery are are high correct healthcare professionals in particular one area that we've actually done a really good job studying with respect. The substance use disorders. A lot of other areas are lacking when it comes to individuals primarily physicians and pilots and we monitor them for five years for abstinence. You'll see seventy eight to ninety two percent abstinence rates after five which is remarkable. Why though I think they have the licenses that rests so a lot of times? It's the job but at the end of the day. My belief is that everyone's life is at risk so people say to me all the time. Well of course the the abstinence rate. It's going to be higher for people with licenses. It's their livelihood is in it everyone's livelihood when it comes to substance use disorders. One drink drink one drug one event could in fact lead someone to their death. We need to treat this thing seriously and realized that these are our brothers and sisters out there and if we don't take action and we don't take it now we couldn't fact lose them and that's a big deal. It's a very big deal. Joseph Esky thank you very much for taking the time to share your UH incredible professional expertise in that remarkable articulate passion. You have for these subjects executive director of Medical Professional Education for the Hazelden one. Betty Ford Foundation on behalf of everyone. Here let's talk. I'm your host William Moyers. Thanks for joining us again. And we'll see so

Joseph Esky William Moyers Betty Ford Foundation executive director Ford Center California Rancho Mirage William Hazel Betty Ford Josias Jesse Britain William Pleasure Summer Institute for Medical S George Washington University National Institute of Drug Abu Fast Keller DC
Episode 126 :: Cynthia Price :: Mindfulness for Substance Use Disorder

Present Moment: Mindfulness Practice and Science

38:00 min | 2 years ago

Episode 126 :: Cynthia Price :: Mindfulness for Substance Use Disorder

"You're listening to episode one twenty six of present moment. Welcome to present moment, mindfulness practice and science. I'm Ted Meissner. Present moment is podcast with interviews conversations. And roundtable discussions, we speak with mindfulness. Researchers about their newest findings published in peer reviewed science journals teachers about their understanding and methods as they work with students of mindfulness authors about their books and interests, and we also speak with everyday practitioners. The website present moment mindfulness dot com has shown for each episode long with resource materials. Dr Cynthia price joins us to speak about the study mindful awareness, embody oriented therapy for women in substance use disorder treatments. If you listening to this podcast and find value in insights from what shared here know that this is made possible from your generosity and the generosity of others. Like, you I want to thank those of you who are making monthly donations to keep this podcast going. And if you're not yet, please take a moment. Go to present moment mindfulness dot com and click on make donation one time or especially monthly donations show. You value this work, which can't happen without you. Thank you for your help you support that you're kind generosity. Have you ever felt disconnected perhaps even dissociated from your body? This can happen for many reasons some benign and some rooted in the experiences during one's lifetime like trauma. My voice can be a way to reconnect, and they'll getting through those waters can be difficult does benefit from the guidance of competent professional. It can be done. Cynthia price. PD L MP is a research associate professor at the university of Washington cynthia's research and clinical expertise is in the acquisition of intercept of awareness imbredded practice for twenty years. She developed mindful awareness embody oriented therapy, or m ABT to teach intercept of awareness and related skills for self care and emotion regulation research program is focused on studying the efficacy mechanisms of MA BT for distressed populations. The majority of work focuses on community based research for individuals who are disconnected from their bodies, doodoo, substance use, trauma, or pain. She is the director of the center for mindful body awareness nonprofit focused on teaching may be t- in integrating mindful body awareness education into programs for underserved populations. Our guest today is Dr Scindia price Cynthia welcome to the podcast led to have you here. You for having me. So let's dive right in want. You to tell us a bit about your background. Well. I'm now research professor at the university of Washington, but I started out and my. Early twenties as a massage therapist, and in the course of being private practice realize working with a lot of emotional issues with my client said went back to school again masters in counseling psychology, not in order to do traditional talk therapy. But to bring those skills more of more. Body psychotherapy approach that continue to use touch. So isn't practice for almost twenty years and worked a lot with people who are just connected from their bodies to? Various things from but a lot of trauma a lot of. And sexual trauma in the client has in with a lot of chronic pain. And at some point in their I decided I really was interested in in bringing this work to more people than. Who I could reach in my private practice than hunt tried to legitimize this type of work in some way has seemed to be so useful to folks. And and now, you know unexpectedly sort of almost decided well one way to do that was research, and maybe I should go back to also that's ended up doing and what brought me to university of Washington was to to really learn how to do interventions research study exactly what I have been doing practice all these years or more or less. Of course, you know, when you're when you're doing research, you you you create which is why they did create a a research protocol for an intervention that is very contained not like clinical practice, which you can see people very long time. So. So that's a little that's kind of how God here. And what my background is. So how about mindfulness did you I encounter that? Because it seems to be a pivotal role in what you've developed. Yeah. Well, it's as when when I first started college, I was religion, major and. I learned about them within the context of being a religion major. But. You know? But I, but I I would have to say that I've I. A lot of how I understand my own cessation with monthly and this work doesn't come from there at all it comes from. Really working in presence as a body worker and throughout much years of practice and training in focusing which is Eugene gentleman's work, which was very much about how people create get touch with their present moment awareness in the body. But I think so much of of. What my relationships mindfulness comes out of Mike and working with clients in that way. So let's talk a little bit about what it is that you've developed tell us about mindful awareness, embody oriented therapy. Okay. So this is an approach basically eight week intervention like so many mindfulness based interventions. That is really designed to teach people very fundamental skills of accessing their capacity to accessing sensory awareness. So their inner vitally experience physical sensations emotional sensations. That's really sort of the wedding receptor witness means so mindful, Madison body oriented therapy is about helping people to on the mental skulls intercept awareness, and we'd. This intervention was really designed out of my experience, clinically of orca people pretty disconnected from their bites. So they didn't have to do that. And when you work a lot with people trauma history. So a lot of chronic pain is common and so. So not to say that this work isn't really helpful for people who don't, you know, who are how the who may not have about level disconnection that so many people do have chronic pain or really high levels of stress or or trauma history. But it really is designed to as Tate that pass ity and Hannah coming back to being able to really easily or at least with more ease. Connect in with semitic experience to bring attention very consciously. I'm very deliberately into places in the body and develop a capacity to stay there. And a very mindful way meditative way, observing compassionately what ever is happening inside. And so we teach people how to do that to this approach in incremental way. We start sort of more on that. Extra of the body. You could say to building the capacity to actually put language to sensation which is abusing for everybody a move from there and to developing the capacity to notice since Asian in the body in an internal way through some exercises using breath using. Intention, and then we move into really more of the meditation piece of helping someone bring their attention into very identified. Places. Like, I'm gonna go into the Harvey gin in the center might Chester go into valley, remove the minimize router, wherever it is that that person has symptoms or has a sense of disease, or whatever some sense of emotional holding for them to go into that place in develop a capacity to actually stay there attempt to how things how feels to be there what they notice how it shifts when able to stay there. So our experiences that that were really teaching people the big steps or time in order to really develop acidy to that. So that's the start kinda more externally on the body than what exercises man with that. That more meditative points and all of this uses touch to help people really bring their attention to their body out them bring your attention back to their body when they start to float out more start thinking, so it's very much a combination of manual psycho, educational and mindfulness to kind of all altogether. Thank you. And I'm really interested in hearing about this recent study on NBC tea for women in substance use disorder treatment. During if he could tell us a bit about that study, did you decide to work with this particular group? Well, I. I didn't have a really strong. Clinic. I did have a lot of clinical expertise people substances disorder. But. When I was a post doc, I was funded on on a grant from Ben National Institute of drug abuse. Or my post doc, so I learned about substance abuse treatment at that time, and then the expectation that post outlets that we would write a grant that would go to the national suit. And at the time they were looking for specifically they were looking for studies in complementary alternative at so I wrote a grant funded so this is a lot of years ago. And that was my first any with women and substance use disorder treatment. It was first study that had done at that population. And it was small, and we got some pretty promising results. And so bad got started and the truth is that wear my clinics for teeth is strongest is true. And all these a hundred percent of these women have Charlie street. So, you know, my own personal interest is very much very much overlaps with this population because of that much part. But so this this the jury ferring too is the follow up to that. This was a larger five year process. A study that we implemented in three community clinics in the Seattle area. All for women who were in outpatient treatment, forceps user soldiers. Could they could have been, you know, addictive, alcohol or opiates or emphatic means or math or multiple multiple things that they were using. But they didn't apps Nate absence based patient treatment. And we did our study at clinics. The intervention happened at clinics and. Yep. So bad. That's how that got started. One of the things you mentioned that stood out for me was that there was a very strong correlation between trauma and substance abuse. And India work with trauma in chronic pain. And other other things of that nature. I'm wondering if. Part of what your design of the program rupture designed the study is really getting at the root of how you use the program, and your course to really get at the roots of the trauma, and the the release from the addictions follow from that that part of what you're doing. I mean, maybe being explicit, right? The women that we see in especially community-based treatment. Certainly for this for this study. They have had very very little mental. Support for trauma. So. You know, some of these women have you know, they've they've got abuse histories that started when they were children and continued into their relationships and you add onto that if they've been using drugs on street. Having other kinds of violence. They're exposed. So it's pretty pervasive and vani doesn't get dealt with. And they end up in treatment for substance use. But usually haven't really had any treatment of other other trauma any other kind of related mental health conditions at all. So when we're doing this work. That's usually what they absolutely that's what they do. They bump into. When you're asking people to pay attention to their bodies and that. The typical very common normal human response to protect ourselves from from emotional pain is is to dissociate from advise as so that we can get through get through the idea last. So. That's what they bump into is. I don't visit comfortable for me. Or I have no idea how feel in you know, as they learn these skills, they become more aware of how they feel start making the lakes between things like, oh, I feel released sad in this part of my and that sadness, you know, they can start making other kinds of links for themselves ramble that sadness loved over from y or whatever. And just them then noticing, oh, this is a real trigger for me. I used to use because I didn't know how to handle out of feel that nece in. So I would go substances in this give allowing me the space to actually be my feelings to know that I can to know that it's safe in my Lai, do this and not meet us until learn how to feel all of that. And so that is exactly what happens, and I think it really is much. I really do think crow law. These folks the trauma is what's fine. Use. So when you're doing a guidance of a meditation in new program and understanding the touches part of this is sometimes of its apprising for the participants. When those emotional revelations come about. It's pricing. But it's it's a president different ways. For for for for for people. You know, sometimes it surprising that they're not used to yielding a positive relationship to their audience sometime. So when they discover that oh my gosh. Not only had something feel sad, and I can be with it. And then that feels good like there's there's way in which that sadness shifts for me on my sense of myself. I my body shifts in a way that actually makes me feel more whole that makes me feel more empowered or strong myself. That's often a surprise for people, really lovely way. So that's a common kind of story one that is in more myst- Lee satisfying. As therapists to watch happen. And it's very impactful for for the participants. So for this particular paper in this particular study, tell us a little bit about the structure what what is it that you did? And and especially what ended up being the results, what are you seeing from this? So this study as I said, it took place in the community clinics said there was a research coordinator who basically lived of clinic and recruited women from therapy groups or the study, and if they were interested after eight finished doubt ascetic questioning ours, they were randomized to one of three treatment groups, so all women in the study were in absence as treatment. And so this study was looking at our intervention my awareness, embody oriented therapy. In addition to treatment as usual. So it's called unto junk of treatment. It's on top what they're already getting. And we also have another invention that we offered so which was women's health curriculum. And that was designed what's called an active control shoe, basically, see whether having the extra time in intention might explain results or was maybe doing something in addition. So all the women the study, they were Windham is to either one of three groups treat, MS usual, only control treatment is usual. Plas mindful awareness. That's experimental group or treatments usual, plus the women's health curriculum as the active in controlled condition. So for those who were randomized either the women's health curriculum or the mindful awareness may then got a individuals sessions for an hour and a half. Each session for eight weeks ago, more or less at their clinic. And then we followed all these women for year. So they were as they fill out set of questionnaires when they rolled in the study twelve weeks later after the interventions would have been completed at six months from their enrollment at twelve months from their much. So we've published the findings from this I in Roman period to post intervention, which is what you have seen in terms of those results on what we saw was that the women who received the mindful body awareness had significantly less sets us than those who were in treatment as usual only. And the women who were in the women's health curriculum also improved in their substances. So this significant difference on substance use was only in relationship to between the mindful, awareness and treatments, usual. But what we did see was that those who got the month ally awareness had significantly improved in their in their interests awareness, skills and their mindfulness skills. If they gotten almost all of the intervention, which really tells us that they learn what we reteaching them, and that is important because you wanna know with such an enormously distressed sample. Can they learn what you're teaching them to learn? And and the answer is yes. And that's really important to know related to that. We also looked at depression symptoms craving symptoms post traumatic stress symptoms. At a much valuation. Some of those we saw significant improvement for mindful body compared to both groups that mostly that showed up for those who really got all of the intervention instead of just one or two sessions. What was really exciting about this study what I had never done before was we looked at emotion regulations of Zia logically. So we looked at whether the heart rate variability for these women which tells us, it's a it's a it's an indicator of regulatory Hannity. The how variable wants heartbeat is tells us that we looked at that at rest, we looked at it in relationship to three different kinds of stressors potential stressors was film. One was rumination on stress on on stressful event. One was actually body awareness Abbadi awareness, meditation, and which could be stressful or not stressful. We were in actually sure it turns that doesn't matter. Whether you've ever had on are not everybody found the body awareness, meditation more regulating, but for those who got the mindful body awareness intervention on rast, film, rumination and body awareness. It was a significant increase in their in their regulatory capacity compared to the other two groups, and that was really exciting. To see because there were issues with suffer port on these measures and have to able to see physiologically. This change really supports our idea that what's happening when people learn to be more aware of their internal experience in terms of Audie wariness. There's been a lot to suggest that that facilitates emotion regulation, but it has not really been looked at without revealing before, and it's certainly not been looked at with this population before. And so these results are really really exciting. You know, what are like is? You're speaking refute things that stood on of was that you have an active control. Which was of course, always somewhat challenging when it something like a mindfulness intervention. What is that they do? Instead, that's as the same social effects and all the rest that that might crop up. So great for that. Also that you were not just relying insult report. There is some biological markers that you could use to help support that. And also appreciate just personally your languaging round. These are indicators and. And just this is one of the things that's very enriching for me about speaking. With researchers is you get how science works that. This isn't it or of process that things are not we did this one study and we're done, and we know everything, and it's proven not at all how science works and listeners to this pug cast, if you've heard if you times you've heard me talk about this before I just wanted to thank you Cynthia for modeling that it's wonderful to hear about how that worked. Week dump not right, right. So what these things really being right? And that was that was also something onto ask about you had mentioned as someone doing the research. How wonderful it is to see someone. Have these positive effects from work that you're doing? And I'm curious if respecting the confidentiality of the specifics that I making a guest that there were some really good moments some breakthroughs in some some good experiences. The people had in the program just with this particular study of the immediate pre imposed just within that limited time scale. How did that go for people? What was that? Like, what was it like for you to to be part of this? Oh, well, I love I mean, those are you just have requested than out on the last for his. I mean, I I have the pleasure of supervising all of were on this day. So I get to be a fly on the wall because we audiotape at Ray single session as a way to make sure that the intervention is being delivered as we expect. But also. Has away Tim provide support for this era? So that when things happen, they're not sure. You know, what did I respond the way should've or this is really challenging can help you think through it. You know, we can go to the tape. Listen to it in an Lillian dress questions. So, you know, the the clinician in me loves that. 'cause I really to really see continue to see how this work helps people and to support therapists who are willing learning to do it too. Well, and so that's that answer to that question. But, but, but as I said earlier, some of some of the most striking and heart warming kinds of stories that that people really talk it out is is is this me connection with their bodies and sense of being able to develop to have new. A tools their whole box basically about south Karen regulation, because we're as in people at the end of every session to collaboratively work with therapist come up with a take on practice. They're gonna do the bills on what they did in that session and to keep track. Analog how often did you do for how long bring that act? So we collect all that data as well. And some women don't bother filling out the log, you know, lives lies chaotic that's like beyond what they can do a male just import verbally what they did. Or didn't do then there's, you know, the gamut in terms of the person who so into it that they spend, you know, a half an hour day every day of the week making sure that close the door they really just quiet in there working on their practice. There's other people that I made a few minutes, and that's all they have. And so. We have that data. But I think it's it's them talking about when is integral to the session. Why did you do in your take home practice? How to go? What questions? Do you have your hunt? We build on that in such a today. Blah, bad is integral to the all that were doing. And so we really hear that. And we ask them to write qualitatively at the end, the one you learn how do you think this recovery if you do so some people respond to that? So we are also doing mixed method study where we're collecting not only suffer questionnaires in psycho physiological data. But also their narrative about how what their experience less and now was mentioned in this paper. We didn't go into in great detail. But overall people love this work those who stick with it. I mean over and over and over again, that's what they say is I really learned how to attention to my emotions. I learnt spend time quitting might taking care of myself. Which is not something I really have done very much. I'm of learned the connection between my physical sensations in my motion sensations. I learned how to meditate which I didn't hire do and what I've tried. I haven't been able to before that's another thing a lot. And I think that's really really key thing for people who are involved in mindful -ness training is that war. Four people have really chaotic lies a lot of coq crank disorders, and and especially trauma histories. There. There can be a lot of additional supports needed. And that's like eight this individual type training can be a really fundamental for stop. That helps them support someone to go into more of a group. Classroom setting or practice setting for months on spectating. We hear that from markets. So that's this particular published work what you working on now. Because there's a continuation of this the mothers. A couple of ways to respond to that. So we as I said meeting, this was a yearlong study. So we are very soon to be putting two we have allies results now and publishing those results you which honestly really pleased about so what we see is that. That a lot of the immediate effects of this intervention that we saw were maintained at twelve months in some or even improved. So for example, substance use we have a significant difference across the whole twelve months for those who receive the monthly body awareness compared to both control conditions, which is really significant to find something that that was our primary. I've comment to actually see that we were able to to have at show up a year out is a big deal. So, but also we. We see those continued improvements in interest awareness on live homeless kills as well as emotion regulations of Zia logically a year out there a significant difference in regulatory capacity physiologically in those got mindful awareness compared to the grips. So these are pretty exciting results and I'm excited to polish them. Related -ly just got funded a few months ago to do a similar study looking at this intervention more people who are in medication assisted for open used to sort or. So these are people who are on people seen instead of methadone just at different drag. And we'll be worth men and women. Unlike the study, which was women only so so excited to do that because it's sort of next step to be. Working at another treatment model, really. But but also really interested in seeing how this works across gender. So that's what we're doing next. Crude looking forward to hearing more and wondering if there's anything else you'd like to share with listeners about to work. About my work. Well, there's two things the other thing that working on that fun is is collaborating with a neuroscientist to look at whether we see changes in the brain also related into such a crossing with this intervention, which if we do will help us understand the war, what were affecting I hope unto this exciting. And the other thing is that I have nonprofit that suffered from my work at the university overlap at its separate in a sensitive really try to help more clinicians. Learn this approach so between do more teaching on working with clinics and service agencies to religion try and bring this work in two into the services that they provide so. That's the other my other half and. And one I'm really excited about because it's really equity how we bring this work to more people and people otherwise actually would Milly Perry little opportunity experience. For those who are listening will be linking to that nonprofit as well. As the work. We've been talking about today. Our guest today, Cynthia price, the thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me, Emily. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to hear more about something you've heard today's podcast, please come visit the website at present moment, mindfulness dot com. You'll find an entire web page devoted to this. And every episode you can come in on the episode page and find show and other helpful resources for your mindfulness practice. The shock hunchine music heard on present moment is used by permission and through the generosity of musician. Rodrigue? Oh, bud Rigas. His website is linked on the present moment website on the about hug cast music page sound editing mixing and mastering provided by the generosity of Anthony domino of structure from sound dot com. Until next time. Remember every moment choice. Make it the best. You can see you next time on present moment.

Dr Cynthia price chronic pain private practice university of Washington disorder university of Washington professor Ted Meissner MA BT director Seattle Dr Scindia research associate Ben National Institute of drug methadone Mike India Tim Tate NBC
Episode 24: Sheila Vakharia Connects the Dots between Harm Reduction and Social Work

Drugs and Stuff

38:12 min | 2 years ago

Episode 24: Sheila Vakharia Connects the Dots between Harm Reduction and Social Work

"Mm-hmm. Welcome to drugs and style a podcast from the drug policy alliance. Blue and welcome to another episode of jugs and stuff the podcast from drug policy alliance. My name's Gabriela Mira's, I'm the manager of multimedia design here at DPA, and I'm so excited to welcome my colleague, Dr Sheila Ikaria Sheila is a researcher at the office of academic engagement here at DP. A and she has such an interesting background. She started as social worker and moved into academia and finally ended up here at DP. A and she's an incredible asset to the organization. Thank you so much Sheila for taking the time to speak with me today. I'm happy to be here. Thank you. Great. So Sheila, you have a really interesting background kind of the road that you took to get here. So I'm just going to dive right in and ask, you know. How did you end up in your current role at DP like what's the road that got you here? Wow. Well, that's a big question. I feel like in. No way was it a straight path or one that I could have envisioned or imagined for myself. I feel like when I look back and try to leave a cohesive narrative to really understand how I got here. I I sometimes have to stop and reflect and think about what was going through my head when I made that decision because actually my background is in clinical practice. So when I was growing up, I thought I was going to be therapist. And so in thinking that believing that seem natural to me to choose a bachelor's degree in clinical and social psychology and to dig deep into these different theories of human behavior to learn different clinical counseling skills because that really just felt like where I wanted to be. I wanted to help people wanted help people solve problems, and I wanted to build relationships with people, and so clinical psychology seemed like the best fit. I had lots of internships over. For the summers. When I was in college at different clinical placements, I had his summer internship in London at the detox at the Florence Nightingale hospital, which I was really formative for me because I think it was really my first exposure to working with people who use drugs and people who are trying to figure out how to live lives without drugs. And prior to that, I really hadn't had much personal personal exposure to drug use let alone perhaps problematic or chaotic drug user addiction. And I felt like it really opened my eyes. I and so many different kinds of people received services that detox all different walks of life, all different kinds of experiences, and here they all were receiving treatment together. And although it was a really interesting experience. I still hadn't even after that experience necessarily decided which population I wanted to work with clinically. But it definitely was one of those things that stuck with me. And then it was time to go to grad. The school because unfortunately, at least in the US, you can't really do much counselling or clinical work with a bachelor's degree. And it was then when I heard of social programs that I realized that a lot of my internships, actually were with social workers MSW's people who were doing the clinical work, I was interested in, but who are also committed to addressing social Justice issues who understood the role of race class gender structural oppression and various other systems, and it seemed like social work was the way to go. And so I got my MSW and again funny enough my second year, internship, ended up being in drug and alcohol treatment setting where I was working in an outpatient modality and folks were coming in for treatment. And I was there to do a Susman's in groups and again very much in the clinical work. And then realizing, you know, why it maybe maybe working in the field of addiction is actually something that I'm actually really interested in maybe these are my people, and I did that. But the challenge of working in that setting for me was that I was realizing that most of my clients were mandated to treatment and being mandated to treatment and meant that they were often choosing treatment over jail, and or often choosing treatment over having a lose their kids or choosing treatment because it was a way to get access to the social services that they needed, and I realized that that wasn't really choosing treatment at all. And that people aren't really being given choices and that I was complicit in systems that we're using treatment as as a means for control and part of how we were also providing treatment was really grounded in twelve step orientation, and there's nothing wrong with twelve steps. And a and a However I felt like that was the only tool in our toolbox for teaching people how to think about their drug use and their experiences, and I really struggled with being provider who was telling people they had a disease and that the only way to address their disease was through. Rendering and accepting their powerlessness and going to meetings, and that they could never use any substances ever again. And I was really getting disenchanted, but I still wanted to do the clinical work. And so in this kind of rash move. I just wanted to leave leave the setting do something different. And I was like let me move to New York and see what kind of jobs, I can find. And so I got a job at a needle exchange complete one eighty and the the logic. But I that guided that decision if I can tell you what was going through my twenty four twenty five year old brain was that if no one's mandated to come here and people are coming. They want syringes then people will come and get what they need. And there's no there will be no pressure on them to to to to be there on anyone else's terms other than their own and that perhaps could have real relationships with my clients grounded in respect and choice. And atonomy rather than in being forced course to be there. I mean oftentimes in the previous setting that I worked in. I was the one calling PEOs and telling them that my clients had tested positive on a drug screen because that was part of my job. I was behold into those systems to and so I was like, well if no one's watching over us. Maybe we can actually do some really good work and really get to the issues that are of concern to folks. And so I did that and over the years of doing that gradually became acting director of the needle exchange and realized again, maybe administration wasn't the top goal for me like running a program wasn't my key strengths. So I started reevaluating. What do I wanna do? I still want to do therapy. Do I still want to work in the nonprofit sector? What do I wanna do? And it was then when I spoke to my mentor, and he said bull. This doesn't just have to be the only path for you. Have you ever thought about getting a PHD? And so. Oh, it was at that moment that I thought maybe yes. 'cause I really didn't receive a lot of count content on addiction or substance use in any of my clinical training, all all that. I learned about addictions with through my direct practice in any studying that I did on my own. And he's like, well, maybe you need to be the voice of harm reduction in social work. Maybe you need to be that professor who teaches exposes students to a different way of looking at substance use and looking at their clients and looking at their work. And so that's what I did. I went got my PHD, and then I got a job right away at LSU in Brooklyn. And I taught classes only two students in the w program who are interested in substance use. And I got to talk about drugs and addiction and away that was informed by harm reduction. That was informed by the evidence that wasn't fearmongering. That was an extreme that was really about compassion and working with people where they're at and I loved it. But I also started getting a little itchy there in that. I was like is this. Is this what I wanna do is? Is there more for me? And so in my free time, I started getting involved in the community volunteering learning about different events that were happening being hosted by different organizations like DPA going out and learning about drug policy in a way beyond just what I was learning when I was going through my PHD program about what people were doing to address the issues of today and through all of that. I just realized there was still more that I could offer beyond what I was doing an academic teaching the next generation of social workers, I could be affecting change today in a different way. And so when the position opened up at the office of academic engagement, and I was heavily heavily persuaded to apply. Yeah. Opted to make the change. So that's a bit of a long long explanation of what brought me here. But in no way, was it a straight path there were various points when I thought, oh, this is just going to be the job that I'm going to have. And then something happened. And I didn't want to do that. Anymore? That happens to a lot of us. I mean, it might be a meandering path. But when things don't quite feel like the right fit you to move on to something else. That's pretty amazing. So you talked about how you know, you didn't really have a lot of exposure to people who use drugs those kinds of populations especially problematic drug use until you are working in London. So before all of that, you know, even growing up what were your kind of ideas about an around drug use? I I had friends who socially used. And so I definitely knew it was a reality for some people to wanna try substances or twenty use them. And of course, all of this being the same time when I was an alcohol user, right? So. I think I had an internalized as much stigma as other people had about illicit drugs or the drugs that are are not legal. But I think that because I knew people who use them and who were fine. Good people and people who were important to me in my circles that in my networks, but there was still a lot that I needed to to deconstruct even when I did move into the treatment settings. And even those of us who think were the most open minded realize the areas where we need to grow and change, and dispel myths and stereotypes and so much of what I learned from working with Miami's in clients over the years, but also all the reading and self taught stuff that happened over the years really helped me to challenge so much of what I believed. So I'd say that. I perhaps was more open minded than some. But I could have been more open minded, and thankfully, I had experiences an openness and a willingness to challenge them to get to where I am today. And I still know that there's probably plenty I need to still work on. Yeah. I mean, it's a process, right? We're always growing and changing in our in our perspectives and our beliefs in working as a professor at LSU. What were some of the misconceptions or stigmas that you've found that your students held and were they able to challenge. Those over the course of in learning from you. Yeah. I mean, definitely my students. Some of my students had more personal exposure to substance, use and problematic. Houston addiction than I did. Some of them came with their own lived experience of identifying as being addicted once or having substance use disorder. Plenty of people talked about having family members or loved ones who had. Who had either gone through a period in leg in their lives? They used problematically or were currently, and so, you know, working with them to to be able to put aside sometimes our own very challenging and painful experiences and to think about how can that help me be better in my own clinical work? And like, what do I see is like the areas that I still need to grow into able to truly put myself in this work and treat every client in front of me like a new person, and and not bring perhaps my old kind of transference. My own counter. Transference rather into my work because I think that the more we work in fields that are very closely personally tied sometimes it can bring up a lot of her own personal issues that can then play out an impact how we provide services and how we work with clients. So I did spend a lot of time with my with my students talking about how their own personal experiences can sometimes play out. In their work, which was. Interesting and important to to do. But also they held a lot of the same stereotypes and myths that I did as well. You know, we were all products of dare, you know, we all had gone through this, you know, through this so called, you know, prevention programming that taught us that, you know, certain drugs. No matter how many times you've done them are fundamentally addictive sustain away altogether. You know, this idea of hard drug versus soft-drug ideas about the permanence of of having a problem that it can that only treatment can help you overcome it when we know that actually the vast majority of people who develop problems to substances also resolve those problems without treatment, and that for many as well abstinence isn't necessarily the path to their recovery's. Some people can still use other substances or can cut down or moderate their use of the substance did once cause a problem for them. I think I also had to work pretty hard on dispelling ideas about harm reduction, and what it means to give someone a sterile syringe into be with them and know that they're still using and to sit with them into feel like you're still working towards change in progress, and that change in progress in recovery can look different for different people, and that truly connecting and helping people can look like a lot of different things, and that helped doesn't eat to look one way. Specifically when you're talking about people who use drugs, so that was a lot of a lot of what I worked on with my students. Yeah. I mean coming from this deep social work background. But also having such a passion for harm reduction and kind of the the research and science behind addiction and substance use. How do you feel that you're very unique background in? I mean, do you feel like you are a unique kind of like a unicorn in the field where you have the you have this kind. Varied background or are there? Others like you. I think everyone in harm reduction has an interesting funny quirky story. And so mine is my own quirky story. I do think that perhaps one of the things that he distinguishes my experience from others is that first of all I don't have an addiction background myself and still chose this work because I do feel like it's very rare to find people who choose clinical work in the addictions, and particularly in harm reduction who don't have some personal connection. Some people kind of know that they're really interested in research from the beginning or they choose research. That's clinically informed after they've been to clinic like done clinical work. So I've been a clinician. And now I want to do research on therapy is a pretty direct path, but choosing to shift all the way to policy can make it a little different. So there's a few little points in there where I don't always see people or meet people who have made those same. Leaps, but we all have interesting stories. That's definitely true. I mean, that's why we got you here today. Talking to us. Yeah. You're definitely interesting. So you're a self-described in-house nerd at DPA. So what about research and kind of policy the policy side is so appealing to you. And what you know both. What do you love about it? And also what kind of challenges and limitations? Do you find that? It has of course, bursaries it's a little different than working kind of one on one in those kinds of setting. So any thoughts on the? Yeah. I mean, I think getting the PHD and deciding that the PHD was the next step for me made me realize how interesting methodology and design and questions can be and being able to explore the answers to questions Ted to discover something new. I don't. Think I necessarily had that appreciation all through my undergrad, even through my MSW. I don't think I was really all that interested in research. It was something that evolved as a result of my experiences and understanding that there were still so many things that we didn't know, but understanding how much did. No. And how he had found that out. But why was it that so much of the good research that supports harm reduction and supports humanistic approaches? Why wasn't that as readily accessible, and why was it that people still struggle to accept it? I think all of those things drove Nida to research. And I think one of the interesting challenges of being a researcher here at DPA is that despite all these piles and piles of studies that we collect and read and and think through their implications for policy, and what that all means is that fundamentally at the end of the day very few policy decisions are actually guy. Added by research. It's often that it's values and emotions and feeling persuaded. But it's not always numbers that persuade people. It's often stories and things that you've experienced that do so it's a funny contradiction. I've come to value research so much at something. I think about a lot I spent a lot of time reading it. I know how important it is. I love talking to researchers learning about them learning about what they're doing. But it's this funny contradiction in that it's so important to me, and it's obviously important to this organization, but it's not always what guides policy. So it's this also this tragedy. Oh, yeah. I mean, we even see especially today like in, you know, our current administration government administration. There's there sometimes what feels like a blatant disregard for things based in science and factually based things it's just you know, if people are choosing to ignore certain things than what can we really do other than continue try, so. Yeah. So it's it's funny. How yeah. Part of my job is to constantly be calling the literature. Seeing what's out there finding studies that support our work or finding studies that could challenge our work and thinking about what to do with this information are the studies that challenge our work or perhaps contradict some of our stances or that would make our policy. Stances more challenging to sell are the study's actually really well designed. Is it just that certain studies got a lot of press because there's something flashy about the headline or the university that that hosted the researcher had a really good press office that was able to put out a press release in journalists picked up on it. But upon closer examination are the findings really persuasive. Are they truly grounded in strong methodology the analytical approach really come to these conclusions. So so that's that's another element of job that I find really really interesting is even when studies sometimes look like, you know, oh, what are we going to do with this data? Sometimes it's also about thinking through was designed in a way that that is really telling us this information or could this have been designed differently. So yeah, I get to use lots of different parts of my brain in thinking that stuff through there ever been any instances, whether it's since working DP were. In your previous jobs, where something that you've read or researched has really caused a shift in in the beliefs that you hold. Yeah. I mean, I think the book that really one of the books that really changed the way that I think was vote by Stanton Peele called the diseasing of America. And actually there were quite a few books that I read during my doctoral program that changed the way I think, but I the way in which he really questioned this permanent lifelong disease state, and that actually there's a history to looking at addiction as a disease that is rooted in older spiritual traditions rooted in Judeo Christian beliefs of some of our founding fathers here the ways in which the evolution of alcoholics anonymous, actually influence some of these. Models. But also was influenced by these models the ways in which we as a society are still dealing with the fact that we have a medical system that's trying to tell us that addiction is a medical disease or that, you know, the National Institute of drug abuses, telling us here that addiction is a brain disease. And then we have folks in the alcoholics anonymous and narcotics anonymous, the twelve step world who say that it's actually a spiritual disease, and that perhaps people have certain predispositions, and this idea like what is this construction of disease really due to sometimes be a helpful tool in getting some people to kind of understanding conceptualize their own experiences or those of others and in what ways can it help build compassion. But in what ways can it still be used as a weapon to stigmatize and one to justify coercion paternalism and doing things for. Someone's own good because they don't know what's better for them. So I mean, I'd say that that book was really influential and in getting Nita think all of this through because even though I've worked in a traditional treatment setting where we did talk about the disease model addiction, and as soon as I left that for harm-reduction setting just through that construct out of my vocabulary unless my clients wanted to talk about, you know, having a disease, and then it was like, okay. Let's let's explore what that means to you. But I'd never really thought about the roots in the origins and the ways that Severi. Even the idea of addiction as diseases very American and a uniquely American construction. I just never had thought any of that stuff through anti-fouling that that book was really I opening for me. And really took me on a course to start reading different people of who wrote about theories of maturation that people can grow out of of substance use that a lot of people. You know, you you have to contest July's someone's experience of addiction or problematic use within what else is going on in their lives. What other circumstances? What's happening that oftentimes substance uses a proactive response an attempt to cope? Yeah. Anyway, that I say that that opened me up. Yeah. So you mentioned earlier the idea for your own good and coerce treatment. And we have a conference coming up on San Francisco. Oh may sixteen lay sixteenth seventeenth. So can you talk a little bit about that? And kind of the idea behind it. And what kinds of things will be explored there? Sure sure, I'm part of the planning committee. So I do have colleagues on my committee who would probably be better suited to answer more detailed questions, but what I can tell you is that increasingly across the country, as you know, awareness seems to be growing that, you know, people with untreated substance use disorder need help what we're seeing is increased bills and laws being passed across the country that allow for putting someone into holding. If you think they're in risk at risk for harming themselves or others or bills like the one in San Francisco, which is a conservative ship law that kind of wood again coerce people with untreated, mental health and substance use problems into treatment against their will. And so our colleague Laura Thomas who's the deputy? Rector of our California policy office was really concerned about seeing this happening in San Francisco. And so she pulled together bunch of us colleagues to say like why don't we put together a conference that challenges idea that coercion is the only way to get people to get help. And why don't we bring together some of the best minds in both the mental health and disability spaces and in the substance use spaces to talk about the research of coercive treatment will we know actually about whether it works or not why don't we bring in people's lived experiences who've had to actually who've actually been subjected some of this coercion and bring together providers and other folks to talk about the ways in which systems can actually really bring a lot more harm than good. And then to talk about what a world free of coercive treatment could look like. And so we've got a series of panels scheduled all day long on the sixteenth in which we bring together. People lived experience providers. Researchers and. All kinds of other folks to present share this information, and then actually on Friday, the seventeenth will have a whole full day of workshops where people can actually hands on talk about ways in which you can make your settings more inclusive for people who might be experiencing crisis. How can you actually get involved with the movement to push back against this conservative Bill being discussed in San Francisco and other kinds of workshops, so we're actually really excited you can get more information by going to vent bright and looking up for your own good. And you can register for the conference all day, it's free, and you can also register for workshops on the seventeenth. Yes. Oh, any of our listeners who are in the bay area hope to see you there. And yes, so I actually saw you speak at a another conference that we recently had around supervised consumption space sites. And I think they kinda share a common theme. Team in that there's a lot of societal whether preconceived notions or misconceptions around these kinds of issues that were trying to combat by looking at them as like a multifaceted kind of concept to know like you might think of it this way. But have you considered these other perspectives or these other sides of the issue? So in your work, you speak a lot about kind of the or focus on the language around these issues, so for you know, around course, treatment or supervise spaces or any other kind of drug policy related issues. What are some of the things that you look out for in in the language that we're using around those issues? So I think we I mean there there's been more generally a move towards person centered language in a lot of mental health spaces in the substance use spaces and in the disability spaces as well. Because the probably use words like addict or alcohol IQ or schizophrenic is that we put first someone's diagnosis there perhaps their health condition before we put that person. And what it does is it sometimes can turn someone from a multifaceted person into a one dimensional person. And what happens is we'll meet turn people into one dimensional beings. They lose the the nuance that we afford ourselves and others, and it makes it easier to sometimes dehumanize them, or to assume that they're not as much like you as they. Perhaps may be really are. It can be used as distancing tool, and it can also make it hard to have empathy and compassion. So, you know, move that we've seen here in the harm reduction space is to to really move away from words like addict an alcoholic and also to to move towards putting the person I and you know, to talk about people who use drugs, right? And when we talk about people who use drugs. And we let drugs be a loose broad category rather than elicit drug or illicit drug or legal drug or illegal drug. We create much more broad ways of understanding substances and the ways in which more people than not Hughes various substances, and it helps us to tear down some of those distinctions. It also helps us resist the urge to label one person's use as as one way versus mine as being another. And it helps us create these broader categories that can then perhaps help us to expand compassion and and care rather than stigma. Although at times, it is important for us to to talk about problematic, you so, you know, people who use drugs problematically or people who may use chaotically or people who might experience. Fiction or have substance use disorders because sometimes it is also important not to minimize the fact that some of us who perhaps can control our moderate are us are privileged in the ways in which we might not then have to experience certain consequences that other people have to write or that. We should also acknowledge that despite the fact that perhaps all people use drugs, not all of us. Equally will suffer the consequences for that use not all of us may equally be targeted or police for our use not all of us will be equally stigmatized for our use. And so by still putting the person I whether it's to say that a person who uses drugs or a person uses drugs problematically, we're still acknowledging someone's humanity. And when you acknowledge someone's humanity, hopefully, it's harder to wanna take their rights away or to justify being tough or harsh or punitive. And hopefully it. Helps us to see that they're entitled to the same things that we are. That's the aim. Yeah. Which I think is what makes what we do here. So much more than just drugs so much more than just drug policy. It's really like a human rights issue is a much larger piece of the puzzle. And the I mean, what do you find most rewarding about about the work that you do here? What I find most rewarding about the work is knowing that I'm helping so it's funny that I'm not helping maybe in the more more traditional senses. But as a researcher at this organization the way that I feel like I'm I'm helping and supporting is by directly supporting my staff, and my colleagues who are out there doing the policy advocacy work in giving them the tools, and the research and arming them with facts and data to go out there and be able to do there. Jobs and to feel prepared in any way that they may need to feel prepared. You know, plenty of my colleagues have a better grasp on the research than I do and have plenty of areas of expertise, and sometimes the most helpful that I can feel to folks like that is to just be like, hey, here's the twenty nineteen paper that came out saying that same thing that you've been saying for five years, and maybe put this in your back pocket too. Whereas sometimes a new study comes out that's done different kind of analysis. That is looking at things a little bit differently. And then I feel like, oh, I'm getting a chance to open my colleagues mine's a little bit to let them know that this new finding came out or this is what this new number this new analysis came out. And this is the numbers so feeling like, I'm helping or feeling like, I'm, you know, supporting my colleagues is I think the best part of my job another part of my job that I really like is being able to plan cool conferences in like the one we just talked about. But I also one of the first things I did when I got. Hired was I was put in charge of putting together our stimulants conference. We actually in September of twenty seventeen in Los Angeles hosted a conference to really focus on stimulant drugs. So what we meant by that was cocaine and methamphetamine and prescription amphetamines and to talk about what it is that we really know about populations that perhaps use stimulants in a high risk manner to understand what harm reduction interventions are best suited for people who you stimulants to explore the best treatment methods that work to help people who might be struggling with their stimulant use. And then to discuss more broader issues moving forward about future treatment needs and things that we need to be still working on in that area. And it was really exciting to to do the research to put the conference together to find the right people to work with my colleagues and identifying who those people were and to see that event through and then to write the recommendation. Paper that came out of it, highlighting the lessons we learned and sharing those because I think one of the cool things about what we do here at DP is we're always thinking about how do we broach the next topic? How do we identify the next issue? How do we stay on the cutting edge, and we did that conference in two thousand seventeen right around when states across the west the west coast and increasingly some states east of the Mississippi were starting to notice spikes in the involvement of stimulant drugs in the overdose crisis, and that although we know that over sixty percent of overdose deaths across the country are driven by opioids and certain parts of the country. It's more than sixty percent. But that poly poly, substance use or poly pharmacy having more than one class of drug in your body was actually driving most of the overdose deaths. And what we're seeing was that stimulants were starting to take up of bigger slice of that pie. And so to be at the cutting edge of that conversation about what we what we know. About stimulants. Would we not know about stimulants had a treat them how to help people who are still using to stay safe and stay alive was really exciting. And I feel like it's I think it was an important conversation for us to be part of. And I'm glad that we were part of it. And that and that we as an organization are thinking that through. And I think that with this coercion conferences, well, we're just trying to to be in the conversation to bring the right people together to think these things through as well into raise awareness among the public that. Although sometimes it may feel right to to to make decisions for other people that actually there's a lot of ramifications to that. And that there are other models that we could be adopting to to really get people help if that's what we want. But sometimes we talk about coercion. And we really mean punitive nece too. And I think we need to challenge that as well. Great. Thank you so much Sheila. It's just wonderful having you here, not only on the podcast, but you know, at drug policy alliance. Says such a voice of compassion and curiosity, and you know, I think what you said about being open minded and challenging your own beliefs as well as others beliefs is something that is really crucial in this fight. That's ongoing. You know? So thank you. Thanks. Thanks for tuning into today's episode and huge thanks to our mazing guest. Dr Sheila Ikaria, if you wanna learn more about the multifaceted work that she does you can follow her on Twitter. She's very active you can find her at my harm reduction. And we really wanna hear your thoughts on this episode and any other episodes we've done or should do in the future. So check us out drugs and stuff DPA on Twitter. And let us know if you have any suggestions for guests that we should have on. Or if you have any questions for us. We're happy to answer those on the air. So stay tuned. Thanks for listening and stay open minded. Drugs and stuff is brought to you by the drug policy alliance. If you like what you hear in the podcast favorite rate the show on I tunes gave it five stars. And a nice review. Also, we'd love to hear from. You tweeted us at drugs and stuff DPA use the hashtag, drugs and stuff and check out our website, drug policy dot org to see the other work. We do Santa for emails and donate special. Thanks to our producer, Katherine Heller and the hardworking staff of the drug policy alliance for all of their work. Thanks for listening.

researcher DPA Dr Sheila Ikaria Sheila San Francisco LSU London professor US DPA Florence Nightingale hospital Twitter Gabriela Mira stimulant National Institute of drug Susman Stanton Peele New York
Before Theres a Cure  CBD?

Fading Memories: Alzheimer's Caregiver Support

1:17:43 hr | 2 months ago

Before Theres a Cure CBD?

"Today's podcast is presented by Pago Pago is the easiest way for you to monetize your podcast providing podcasters with a flat rate for ad space. So you always know how much you get when you include an ad from pod go apply today to become a member and immediately be connected with advertisers that fit your audience. That's pod gone. Co co and be sure to add fading memories in the how did you hear about pug go section of the application? At the same time we're looking for a cure for Alzheimer's are we ignoring a potential natural Ally at the very least could CBD be a preventative treatment wage according to researchers at California's Salk Institute, their 2017 study has found evidence that cannabinoids such as CBD could help remove dementia from brain cells off in the hope that we can avoid developing the disease or at the very least reducing its effects. Are we missing out? Why are we afraid to investigate this option? There are uses for CBD for many people CBD does not have the THC which causes the high of which we're familiar in one way or another this episode is a conversation on the use of CBD and we also offer on the politics of legalization, which I hope you'll find interesting and informative. This episode is brought to you by caregiver Chronicles an eight-week online course from diagnosis through hospice for more information use the link in the show notes home. Welcome to fading memories a supportive podcast for those caring for a loved one with memory loss before we get in the show. I thought I'd give you some details on some of the courses that you receive with caregiver Chronicles. It starts from the very beginning with the diagnosis, but you will also get courses on a healthy lifestyle navigating medical professionals understand medication legal matters Insurance dealing with durable medical equipment. When a caregiver is needed finding one placement family Dynamics and challenges and conflict Home Health hospice and planning for your loved ones transition. There are three options available. I know from personal experience that the more you know about handling this disease the better outcome will be for everyone. So I urge you to check them out and let them know that you learned about them from fading memories podcast with me. Today is Richard Cohen, he has a job. An advocate for legalized marijuana for most of my life. He wants to educate his generation to the many and amazing benefits of hemp based medicine. He's teamed up with dr. Igor boussole. I hope I got that right to give seniors valuable information from a medical professional and a lifelong help him, excuse me, and marijuana activist walk together. They have CBD seniors and Blue Ribbon hemp. So thank you for joining me Richard. My pleasure. Thank you. So before we discuss how CBD can help with Alzheimer's let's talk about everyday life issues that can also affect our break and specifically like weight gain and insomnia. So actually I should back up and let you introduce yourself a little bit more. Apparently my brains not working today. Well, I have just the Cure. Well first off I always emphasize the beginning God. I'm not a doctor. I just play one on the internet, but and seriously not folks. My point is not I've been involved in marihuana off the move and then they found out about medical marijuana. And so but I have never you know, prescribed suggested anybody used cannabis for a medical purpose because I'm Not Dead. You know a doctor I've not that is my degree is in economics and my which if we make you need marijuana anyway, but God I my point is always been about Freedom that people should be free. And this was the thing that really was so frustrated being until very recently as and you still encounter it the pro-business party line is sort of no medicine a smoked, you know, it's basically oh, of course, I'm not a Baptist medical cannabis as long as it's been developed by the pharmaceutical industry and approved by the FDA and you know, and then you will you no thank you. But and then of course all we don't need it anymore will excuse me. There's that mean you're admitting that we used to needed and you were arresting sick people. So this is you know my opinion To this thing has always been you know, you know number one freedom and then in terms of you know, when looked at the the CBD business and how it was shaping up. I just turned 80 and I have this may be a plug for marijuana and Thursday. Is it a t i do not take any prescription drugs. I have been using cannabis on a basically daily basis for the last fifty some-odd years. And so everybody will have to you know judge for themselves for how it's affected me. But the fact is is that I, you know have known no other hand, you know, a very fortunate in terms of genetics. There are a lot of things that are illnesses that are genetic apparently including Alzheimer's by, you know, understand it off. But the fact is that you know, the the stress the problems that everybody faces as as we get older and it may be at sixty or seventy or eighty or ninety. I mean there's you know, there are people that you know, still going strong, you know in their nineties and that is like Mel Brooks who is just still as funny as ever and just as sharp as ever but you know, you don't you you know, it's always I always say you were all subject to cancellation without notice. So, you know, we we this is something that whether or not people have are having to deal with the extreme stress of choice of Alzheimer's that as as we age different things are going wrong with our bodies and in that regard cannabis club Seems to be you know, something that in the old days we would have called a tonic. I called it Jim but the the idea is does not help, you know, just in terms of every day alive and unlike THC whole cannabis. There is there are no jobs. There's no high out in involved in in using CBD and you know, let's say I've I've been getting high for fifty some-odd years off the bill joke if it worked for me, but you know again, I know people that that simply do not enjoy that I know a lot more people who are frightened by the idea or may have religious objections to it or whatever but you know, that's that's one thing but you know, the fact is that there are people that just find btao. Very uncomfortable. And so and I think that ironically CBD really helps with that. That's funny. Well, I mean it really is you know, there have been some recent studies about you know, people who have problems some people idea. I think if something is probably worth dealing with here is the idea of people is marijuana addictive. Well, yes, everything is addictive in the sense that if you do different things that you like to do course, you know gambling is highly addictive there is is one of the most destructive addictions of any month. So because there's a limit to how much cocaine you can put up your nose, but there is no limit to the amount of money that the casinos will happily take they'll you know until you log Already, they'll take it but you know, this is there is you know, this isn't something where you're taking something. This is an action that you're that has become a fixation but it is as addictive as a more so than than many drugs and addiction from alcohol, which maybe my favorite drug can be fatal that details you people can have actually go ahead and and have seizures and died. The barbiturates are highly addictive and they will in fact if you go into details the hospital though, they will give you a rich what's to stop stop the convulsions to keep you from dying and so the month. So the the point is is that what you know, in terms of do people do some people have problems with the cannabis use. Yeah people have problems. With almost everything and that's whatever, you know people that couldn't happen. I say there are people involved it can happen to people but I'm the general idea though of of dealing with stress, which is both for the families of the people that Alzheimer's and with the patients themselves, and this is the so they are being two entirely different sets of facts that you you have the patient who's in the grips of a terrible degenerative disease, and then you have the families and friends who trying to take care of the one of the things that I have recently learned about wage, and I had to fascinating stories is cannabis. Chem Excuse Me music and Alzheimer's talking to a phone number. The other day that had a family with Alzheimer's a very severe curled up in a ball and so they can often do you know stand, you know, basically pick him up his hold on to him and then put him in front of the piano. And put his hands on the keys and then it comes back. If apparently it's a different part of the brain or whatever that comes back to it and he starts playing the piano perfectly. And then after he has finished playing the piano he gets up and walks by himself back to where he was City Life. I you know over the years I've heard about music therapy and I had a a friend's daughter actually had a degree in it and he heard some amazing stories, but you know the wrong idea that somebody is so locked up at Alzheimer's that suddenly, you know, they, you know, come out of it at least a little bit just through the power of music and you know, I think that one of the things that we're going to be saying a lot more of in the the era head is an emphasis on music for healing because right now we need a lot of I mean America and the world is in a world of hurt and the wage And which you know, it's difficult enough. I mean, I'm so blessed that for me, you know, this has been a major inconvenience and I am terribly but the fact is is that you know, the aside from the fact it's killing a lot of people the the pandemic itself the locks down and the loss of businesses down. The isolation is for many people just a huge burden in many ways. And if these people are then trying to schedule with severely dementia-related issues with a family or loved one that you know, it's I cannot imagine that on top of everything else and of course the patience the the people with Alzheimer's if if they are in later stages, but still aware they suck. Up on The Vibes of the negative, you know the stress and everything around them. And so I think that the there is going to be a major role for the use of cannabis in the general context and particularly CBD and the general context of dealing with stress and the illness as I say, I cannot imagine anything more stressful than trying to care for a loved one with with, you know, Advanced Alzheimer's I thought you know there there hasn't been any of it in my family. But you know you you you know as people as as you know, it might my father got older, you know, he dead or follow a little behave be one. He was a hundred pounds overweight folks smoked four packs of cigarettes a day and could polish off a bottle of jail and get up the next morning and be dead. The very left be eighty-one and basically was in good health till about the year before he died. He said you have you have marijuana and I have martinis why like M&Ms you were saying, you know people people are concerned that page marijuana is addictive and it's like I think like you said everything is kind of addictive because I know most evenings sitting down watching T reading a book whatever boxing and my brain goes must be time for something sweet and it's like yeah. No, we don't we should have had that hours ago so we can burn it off but I always give in or almost always give em, you know, well, I like chocolate. So what the heck? Well, I will not recommend my brownie recipe off. Well, okay now I am in an agricultural. You know, I don't I'm not sure exactly what the difference between suburbs and exurbs is but I am on the far Fringe of the San Francisco Bay area and up until the late nineteen eighty-nine this town got its first stop light. So what does that tell you? So we're a small city is 65,000 people. I had heard that pot brownies didn't taste so great. Especially if you were a chocolate fanatic like myself and I won't mention any names but one of our local farmers said, well, you've never tried my version and I was like you once you mention it everybody comes out of the woodwork, which is really interesting. But you know, well the actual one of the things that I think very important in terms of particularly a minor political Point here is the difference between legalization and decriminalization of that with legalization. You have properly labeled thing so that you know what you're getting the problem with brownies wage and in the good old days was that you just didn't know your dosage and I remember going with a couple of friends. This would have been the Circa nineteen seventy or when the movie 2001 first came out and it was one of those movies where you know, you have to see that stuff. So so what we smoke a doobie then have a brownie and then go into the movie the idea is about the time to do be wore off the brownies would kick in and put that happened except that we got the munchies and 8 the rest of the brownies and had to go back to see the movie. That was the first time but more Liberal Liberal the second time. That was one thing I was going to ask you is I know like my mom at the let's see about birth. Six months of your life, maybe even a little bit less was having a lot of trouble eating and I know one problem that people in advanced Alzheimer's have faith is you know, they see the food but their brain doesn't register it as food. I'm wondering if actual marijuana since it gives you the munchies. If you think this just your personal opinion not a medical opinion if you think that might help them to want to eat if well, I really don't know. I think that one of the things again is that yes it will, you know, we know from observation and that for example, the people in this one of the things that ultimately led to the recognition of the medical properties of cannabis was the AIDS epidemic wage. particularly in San Francisco and one of the things that you know people who are sick regardless of what it is dead may have a loss of appetite and of course on top of that if your knowledge has a little or a lot then again this cannabis between know helps with that and that's one of the really heartbreaking stories from the early days of the AIDS epidemic was that it was recognized in the gay community that there was a lot of the people who are dying, of course in those in the early days of the AIDS epidemic that it killed a lot faster than it did which is fairly typical of and hopefully we'll be back through covet as well. But the it was you know, they look around this is obvious that the people who are dying fast as where people living in the fast lane that you know sex drugs and rock and roll with or without the rock and roll and so that the they were groups of patients that people with AIDS who were really trying to figure out anything, you know, because nobody just didn't like coated in make any sense home. And so the but they really one of the groups called act up and they were acting up because nobody was taking it seriously real rude dying in your life, you know, particularly a problem during Reagan's first term, but the idea was that, you know, sort of like a a we're going to take care of all drugs. That was a really good thing except that they also were swearing off of marijuana. And so the group basically split into those that were continue to use marijuana for medical purposes and It's still hard for me to relate discuss explanation. He says we won the argument because the other side of the the side that the the the life expectancy of people with full-blown AIDS before any really effective treatment. It was really obvious that cannabis improve the quality of life. And one of the main reasons has that again, they were there was a wasting disease that was basically because they couldn't eat. Yeah, so and so the, you know, everybody getting the munchies are a big joke unless you have you know, something that has destroyed your life and you're nauseous all the time and then it is you know, and this so, you know to the things that cannabis might do to help dead. You know the patient with age who may not even recognize the food at that point as that if they're less stressed and and and they get a job if they are going to tell you they're not obvious. They're not going to tell you they cannot take the right now, they're not hungry or I'm hungry. But if they have a nice if that is the problem then whole cannabis in terms of with the THC cuz it's d h c that gives you the munchies, but that's you know, it's definitely something that I think would be worth exploring but back but really really important thing is that off with you know, legal cannabis. You can go to a dispensary and you can get ten milligram squares of chocolate tastes really good wage. It looks being Wicked here and I haven't had lunch. So you're really giving me wrong. But you know that's again going back to the other aspect of it is in terms of the stress off on the family the caregivers that dealing with people with really severe problems. And it's you know, the the emotional strain of not having your mother recognized your you know, that sort of thing and then, you know being frightened of you in this sort of thing. So it's that in terms of just general something to look into it would be a well. You know, CBD really does not seem to have any really significant side effects one of the things I want to emphasize about Thursday. That is the way to be. I think that everybody would be, you know, particularly if you're dealing with, you know, the family and and the patience with Alzheimer is took off with a few draw a dropper and then wait and see if if there's any discernible effect. If not, you know go for you know to next time and this sort of thing and you know Edge because again, there is no lethal notes that you know, people can get to Stone the wrong time and do all kinds of of really dumb things and you know, including you know accidents phone, but there has never been a a fatal overdose of cannabis and that's more you can say for aspirin and acetaminophen and any number of over-the-counter drugs, but some of which by the way have a dog Really bad effects of cognitive function as as people get older and you know just in terms of over the counter drugs not talking about promotion drug just over the counter drugs that can have psychoactive effects or something like that that you know, I was amused this morning's nude. Tylenol acetaminophen is associated with risk-taking behavior. Well, I'd have enough for Christian eBay. I take Tylenol because I have a headache or some other pain. Do you want to go out and get wild I'm thinking if well, I'm not pleasant when I have a really bad headache. So I guess you could I think that's the opposite. I don't know who saying that but that's that's nuts. Well, it's the latest research. So it must be true. Right which is actually another peeve of mine is that over the decades that I've been involved with the Cannabis Reform movement was always off all the latest research shows, you know that if you give enough of it to mice, you know mice drop out of school, you know, I mean just it's if you age Then you read the fine print that the National Institute of drug abuse provided the funding and then if you read the conclusion is that this particular problem is associated with marijuana a used but we need to do more research. So send another check. Yeah, and this sounds very cynical and partisan and so on but I really think that that's basically the national still drug abuse was buying press releases that they the an example going back to San Francisco and age of dr. Abrams who is who was in San Francisco General for many years and they still be still. For several years tried to get a grant an approval to do research to see if marijuana medical marijuana would help with the AIDS patients every year they that they would say no, so we suggested that he submitted his proposal will see if it hurts AIDS patients checks in the mail right there. We'll get you the marijuana and sold them so he he gets this Grant and and by the federal government control Supply marijuana, you you you any other drug you want to do research on you get funding you can get the approval but they don't you can get the the drug in question wherever but if you need to do it better one that you have to get it from the the d e a n i d a but anyway, Kentucky, right? Hm the marijuana comes from Kentucky, Louisiana Louise. Uh, but it probably tastes better. But anyway, the he got the approval he got I think it was Thirty patients put them in a hospital over and half, you know double blinds a half of them were given a placebo and have them are given cannons and the they were, you know locked up for 30 days so that you know, they could do a you know, real test and the 30 days the results were disastrous. It turns out that not only did me wrong not harm people with AIDS. They actually felt better and most alarming of all there was even a drop and their viral count now off I never heard that that it wasn't a big thing because again, they were only there for 30 days and then it wasn't but they actually did have a drop in the viral thing. So He never got another ground over, you know, this is this is and it is in fact the law which they may be a song about to amend that the basically the same gave the government a total Monopoly on the the access to cannabis for medical research and the law actually prohibits the federal government from doing anything that might encourage legalization of any illegal drug in certain cameras off. So the the outage you may do all the research that you want to as long as you promise to come up with the results make prohibition work. And now there's you know, even if my age are not cynical. Yeah because basically because we're winning, you know, that's the truth will make us free and but it is really yeah even to this day. It is very frustrating to see the government still trying to block a reservation counters for blocking medical research. And and of course all of it come accompanied by let's talk about freedom of waving flag, you know, and you know, yeah going to make me wear a mask. It's a free country. I cannot go. I don't have to wear schutz shoes and shirts to get serviced home is a it's a vast there's a vast quantity of his pieocracy available these days. I don't know if I'm just more aware of it or if there's more of it off. But yeah, I'm with you, you know, cuz well I'm in California we've got so I'm I believe me I know about it, but I think it's just best friends of Hypocrites. I think we all are a little bit. So let me let me ask you a question before we get you to our conversation and I'm like chewing on my arm his life. Now. CBD does not have the THC in it correct good THC and CBD or two entirely different cannabinoids both of them occur in various degrees in the hint. That is that doesn't meet the actually there's a small traces of THC in legal hemp in the United States, but that they there are something like eighty. Yep. Going to have it on it and they it was THC really wasn't discovered until the sixties and it was not covered by hippie. It was actually discovered by scientists and in Israel who is by the way still still added but both he and other things begin to determine, you know, you know what's in this thing and so now they actually there maybe eighty different cannabinoids but CBD again the government about CBD since the seventies And but it was not available as you know in in sufficient quantities, and and of course the fact that it was associated with marijuana, it came from the evil plan that you they blocked access to that too. But you know, there's a c b d c b g a c b m and so and the way these cannabinoids in there are terpenes that same that there's a huge debate over this but it now seems the terpenes actually have some sort of odd both medical value and so basically cannabinoid medicine is going to be if the government would just get out of the way is you know is going to be is or particularly heart is a major area for research going forward and it really I mean but to go home is still doing everything they can even you know, turn off. Threatening CBD Mark Meadows the Trump's Chief of Staff when he was in Congress opposed even CBD he has a provision list and the this is something that you know, again, we're going to see a debate on this and the next day a few days in the Congress just to see but you know, the unfortunately the Trump Administration has basically been staffed with prohibitionists and they don't offer it began. I mean Jeff sessions who was his first choice for attorney general it was rabid prohibitionist. And and so you and of course, unfortunately, it's the new attorney-general bar is also and he is a you know is threatening wage fornia even legal operators in California, and he wanted to do an antitrust case against some of the bigger CBD companies and Thursday at the very beginning most of these companies and their stocks fall about eighty and ninety percent. So if they have some sort of Monopoly they are not doing it very well. It's but anyway being is is the government is still blocking access to cannabinoid medicine and just not so but in the in the case of CBD an infield phone number which days you're still a few studies where you can't even get CBD And this one, you know, well, that's one of the great things about California. You got the money, but you know, it's it's by the way it's going to be real life. I'm back home in Texas right now and legislature is going to go into session right after the first of year, maybe and Texas by that point Mexico. Where by the way CBD is legal Mexico is going to completely legalized cannabis and medical and Recreation. So often Texas at that point, we'll be surrounded by states that have you know, either medical or legal marijuana and it's so Texas with a huge market for the noon improved Mexican. Marihuana. Everything old is new again. That is so funny. So quick question, and then I'm going to dead. Turn us back towards Alzheimer's what's the point of all this prohibition? We my husband used to smoke very big Beer and Wine Drinker won't even touch my little mints that are five milligrams of THC each. So there I'm not even sure they're a glass of wine for somebody like him. I got them to stay calm and kind of in Mom's reality while I was visiting with her and I wanted a lowest dose because sometimes we drove places and I didn't want to be driving impaired. So I was trying to be trying to be responsible person. He will not even consider the the adult marshmallows for adults mores or my mints but twelve pack of beer every day is okay. Like I don't understand it's like to me it's the same drinking beer pot. I don't see a huge difference. So what's with this? Let's not with the prohibition. Is it just our crazy be Puritan culture from way back in the sixteen hundreds or I'm not a good I think it's more like the sixties America had a there was a huge social division in the sixties, you know, the growing up, you know in the fifties Lounge the everything. I mean, there's some wonderful pictures like Willie Nelson wearing a coat and time. Yeah make it as like shocked face because I cannot picture them exactly or you know, the beat poets in Greenwich Village. We're all wearing coats and times and it was simply the way things were done dead. But the social Division and the political divisions and the 60s caused marijuana to be associated with hippies and a general nonconformity. And of course up generally speaking, even though the Democrats didn't want anything to do with the the hippies like Democrats and home. Yep. Dianne Feinstein who just turned 90 finally. I mean the most left-wing members of the United States Senate. He finally came out against marijuana prohibition. She's former mayor of San Francisco. So, you know if but I the idea of you know, I've had people like really like a drink and you know, I suggest oh, no, I have enough trouble but this drug and so I think that and that is you know, your name If the you know, I don't want to be a hypocrite. I love alcohol. In fact wine. Maybe My Favorite Drug, but wage is one thing of course as I get older it takes less of wind for my occasional infirmities, but I just I think that it really is it's a combination of social factors and then again somebody who does a lot of alcohol things, but I don't need anything else. But on the other hand at some point or other it the damage from the alcohol may necessitate medical cannabis and I'm not pushing that on anybody else. Believe me. It ain't either or that's a funny while my whole attitude is once they figure out they can tax it and make money. They'll they'll flip the switch off zero Unfortunately. They they had this idea that it's going to be a cash cow for them which then means they want to tax it so that legally we did not competitive with the black market and that has been a big problem in California, but it really most of the other states is the black market continues now, we don't the the really off the most important thing about getting rid of the black market or making it reducing it is that in the Netherlands you have been able to go into coffee shop. For like it's a 19 mid-seventies and buy cannabis in the early days. It was all hashish now. It is mostly Dutch Spanish Eastern European could beat weed and one thing that you will never ever find in a coffee shop is hard drugs the the Dutch call it separation of the markets so that when you go to the black market marijuana seller he may or may not remember most most of them that I've known they're putting out who had cocaine but you know as you move into more unstable areas always say they are most likely to have, you know, Polly drugs and so, you know heroin cocaine meth whatever and even at the wholesale level back home. So decades ago when the Colombians had one point become a major source of marijuana particularly, if you remember Miami Vice that was about Don Johnson and ironically cheeched. Yep. But the the reason that Miami, let me have become a major source of Columbia and lead the northern Colombia produces. Some really great weed. Mexico had been poisoned by paraquat and wage information. We do is really bad. So the Colombians get into the business and some point in the early fifties, but tons of George Herbert Walker Bush became president that the boats coming up from Columbia suddenly. He wanted marijuana wage. Had to buy cocaine they basically forced cocaine into the distributions and system for marijuana for Columbia. That is the way black markets were off. So this is is why legalization is important why it is also important to minimize a black market so that you don't have, you know, poly drug sellers on the street what you do about the hard drugs after that. That's a separate topic. Yeah you but you want to separate the markets. Okay. Well since I'm in California and I believe you can get a lot of this on the internet. I don't know. I'm sure it's every state has its own laws and I don't even know about my investors that are in Canada and the UK and do have some in Mexico. So I guess they know what what's coming down the line for them. One of the issues. There's several issues with Alzheimer's wage that are pretty common thankfully not everybody has to deal with aggression. And that is that was the problem. I was trying to talk with my mom one of it. I was trying to get her neurologist to take her off of the Alzheimer's medications cuz from what I had learned and she was a neurologist will try to tell me differently so long I'm not sure if she was staring me in the direction. She wanted to go or if if the jury is still out on this but they from what I've learned some of the boss timers like the cognitive enhancing medications after about five years do not help and can make you aggressive. She was getting she she'd been taught how to do math like eight years and I I think her aggression was just from the disease and it's and it's essentially took her she jerked away from the caregiver. That was there was two of them helping her shower raped for her clothes slipped landed on her knee and broke her leg and 2 and 1/2 Weeks Later. She was gone. So my sister and I independently tried to figure out how to use CBD to calm the aggression the, anxiety. The problem was getting her off the other drugs and then getting the professional staff to essentially medicate her with something that often prescribed by a doctor. So that was my challenge. But what what do you suggest maybe people who are caring for loved ones at home or maybe even people that were in our situation what we should consider trying she was pretty mellow the day I gave her half a half a pauper I think was a quarter of a pot brownie that I got cycle club friend. That's one of the things to think about for example, is that if you Just really make it simple the police get called to bars all the time for violence and the in and going back to the dog example. They never get called our coffee shop that there I was almost always a nice drunk wage. You know that there are and you hear I mean, yeah. Yeah, you're really good guy. There's a nasty girl and you here but you know, you you really never hear about it being a nasty Stoner and the fact is is that it is a mild sedative among other things what it is doing inside your body. I thought well, of course the fact that in this is one of the things that suggested CBD and THC cannabis and could be useful in the actual treatment dog. Of Alzheimer's is you know, the fact it is an drug has an anti-inflammatory and so it does have physical effects. It isn't just that you're getting you're you're you're getting high and and mellow and you know, but, you know melo's off and particularly, you know in that particular context and so and I think one of the things for example, you know, you can t or a brownie I'm sharing it with the the patient and you know the just see what happens in terms. Of course again, depending on how far along are they're going at the risk of sharing it as a meaningful concept, but you know just to to but dealing with the stress that all of the people involved For feeling now the big problem is that the despite all of the progress that we have made wage in terms of getting these, you know some recognition from the medical establishment for the most part. It is simply, you know, see know we'd hear know. We'd speak know we've we bought that they they are locked into this Paradigm and it is very difficult. I'm very sympathetic with the Alzheimer Society in the other official disease groups that they have to deal with the medical establishment and the federal government and various, you know, International groups and so on but it's really they get down to the point of of course, you're going to talk about cannabis but not here, you know, and that's dead. No of the story about one of the the most disturbing conversations I had when I was in normal many years ago. God, well first I'll tell you one really quickly as I got a call one day from a young man, and he I thought I thought he was just you know really stoned but you know, he spoke very slowly and so it turns out he serious mental issues and so he had been really miserable and what the doctors were giving and but you know, so we were talking about things that the doctor wouldn't talk to him about their want. So he's he's calling normal too long to get our our unbiased opinion, but the thing that he said right at the end of the conversation that took me still does I haven't tried to kill myself since birth. Started using marijuana. Those are exact words after we hung up. I cried. I walked we were office was just a couple of blocks from the White House wage. They the the staff generally knew what was I get up walk out walk across to the White House and go our home. I glowered menacingly because the sob and the White House and I didn't inhale I knew better. I mean, I knew he was lying about smoking not inhale. Well, I can be a president without lying that's a whole other podcast me that message to another time, but you know it really the the idea is that saying about this. I got a call one day again, they're dead. Early in the morning as I got there early this woman whose father was basically dying of cancer in a very bad shape, but they so they were doing chemo and he was vomiting so violently that they were very concerned about and there are pharmaceutical antiemetics. But if you read the label, they don't work all the time and sometimes they worked first few times and then stopped working. And so this little guy was retching his life away and the nurse actually says to the guy start my father had the same problem and we gave him marijuana and he was okay. So she asks the doctor and he says I don't want to even talk about it and walks in storms out of the room. And so she's calling me she went she she threw on her worked up enough courage to go get some weed so placed and she's calling me wage structure normal. It was Good Friday morning cuz I will never forget that and she is asking me what is you know, how long she's why should we just don't want to get mod, you know get on killing do want to get my lease on those. How much can we say forget it and I said, you know, I told that there is no lethal dose wage and she was so relieved. She also was so paranoid. She wouldn't give me her first name and she was calling me from a hospital. It was within sight of God, but the place where the Star Spangled Banner was written about the land of the free and the home of the brave. And she's afraid to give me her name. She wants to find out if a plant who's going to kill her father who's dying of cancer, and she's afraid not. And that actually I remember that so well because one it was on Good Friday, and she was calling from within sight of the for the Star Spangled rip-off. It is a neat story. Yeah, you know, this is again to me. I just I believe in personal autonomy. I believe that, you know, the you know, we if if we don't own our own bodies, if we do not we cannot have wage they over something of the sort of thing that we're talking about right now to help, you know patients with Alzheimer's have families. With you know her dealing with this and I certainly don't need to tell you anything about that and but the the idea that you could be arrested for using a plan to help people. Is you know just unimaginable but I don't have to imagine it. You know, it's I've you know, I you know, I suck at two friends who were driven to Suicide who did kill themselves because they were suffering so much and when they were going to be put in jail for using the one thing helping they kill themselves. That's not good. Yeah, and so whenever you hear well we haven't done enough research on marijuana. We don't know but I always say one of resource you have you done on arresting people and and this is the idea is well going order to to recommend they you know, a drug we have to do research on it. Well, have you done research on arresting people and well? No, that's your policy. That's what you're doing with you as a physician or advocating. Yeah with more research sure, but stop arresting people until you know the until you've done your research on a rash get free for twenty two million Americans will marijuana charges since Nixon was ons 22 million will arrest this year will arrest six hundred thousand people under one possession charges and that's more Americans that will be arrested for all violent crimes put together at the same. Yeah. Because I don't think we obviously people that are on hard drugs are going off or very very it into the political podcasts say which is I like to listen to but I don't generally produce know people like on the hard stuff Coke and meth and heroin. I guess I don't have any experience with any of those, you know, they're generally causing more problems than somebody that's doing marijuana. That's Portugal Portugal has decriminalized possession of everything in small quantities and the but you know alcohol alcohol a hard drugs, you know, cause you know, all kinds of social problems and yet we don't arrest people for possession of alcohol bath. Um that the idea is these the people and particularly we think we're doing going through right now is it there had been a down trend on Opeth overdoses? That is unfortunately reverse. And again, I'm getting everybody's obvious. This is related to covid-19 Simply the stress of covet. Is is you know, these are the people who are I guess most vulnerable to stress but they you know, the overdoses or something that off these are these deaths are most of them are preventable and the idea if particularly, you know in the old days with Heroin distribution office, uh, often owned various countries, including UK various time tried, you know, treating a heroin addiction as a medical condition and it is weird. But heroin if you people once can actually stabilize the thing and you know, they don't always come off of it. It would be nice if they did but they are able to lead normal lives if they have heroin maintenance. It's called Dead. If you Vancouver is incredibly lovely city and I was there for about five years. It was very strange thing. Is that just blocks from some of the nicest areas and just within blocks of Chinatown you would see uh, never see a Chinese heroin addict you ever say a Chinese. Chinese bigger on the streets those that but one block over anglos and Native Canadians, you would see the most horrible scene off of addiction you can imagine and the thing about it was was how utterly chaotic their lives were because they could not plan around anything that their whole life was about life story. And the that becomes the center of their line and that is you know is yes, it's a function of addiction but it is also a function of Simply criminalizing. What is really a terrible, you know disorder. Of course again, this is never a part of of the marijuana World wage except when they end up in the same markets and your guy who you're popular tries to sell your hair on but that's but anyway, so I keep getting political on you. Yeah, that's okay. Well, I hope it's okay. I do have a lot of California listeners. So hopefully well the death anybody so you've talked a lot about using cannabis or CVT or you tell me which one or both to mitigate stress to not I don't want them. We'll leave it. Maybe that is the right word but to manage our stress which you know right now a lot of us could use. Yes and you think the family member like a family caregiver taking care of somebody with alzheimer's this is something they should partake in together or this should be the family caregiver doing more of the partaking. Well first off, you know, as you explain I'm in the CBD business. So yes that I in the sense that there are no really major side effects or anything like that that if you have if you're having issues price EBT in the sense and and you know, start off with a small doses and see, you know, if if you keep on increasing the hoses and your problems don't go away then stop wasting your money on CBD bath. The idea is that this is something where it is so low risk. This in the sense that whole cannabis again no amount of is going to kill you but one of those things that you have people who are unfamiliar with it, you know, they have too much and panting, you know, they're both extremely uncomfortable and it is on I I have a few times at a little more we're talking alcohol, but I bought it really in terms of the old commercial try it you'll like it but you know again start small with small doses and and off and see and then in the same would be true for both the caretaker and the patient. Now I'm I will not make the same kind of just flat recommendation for whole canvas that the some people are often become extremely uncomfortable with, you know, just getting to Stone. Yeah been there done that too. So, you know, the fact is perhaps the U as as with the AC start with small doses the smallest like your 5 milligram thing and so on and also the thing that phone number is whatever you're taking an edible it may take an hour or so to kick in so don't do what I did a two thousand and one eight on the boundaries and see what I've heard those stories. Yeah. Well as I say the second time I saw I had remembered it was really good movie wonder how he's doing these dead. What I did when I see I went to Colorado a year ago ish and so I got to pick I went to Rome mountain medicinals and I picked their brain. I told them what what was going on with my mom and what was going on with me and because they understood that legal or not allowed to take it on the airplane and somebody who will remain nameless at the moment told me not to worry about that in future that I I can I can judge. Yes. Exactly. Yep. Um, that was before my city has a moratorium against dispensaries, which is very frustrating cuz I keep telling them, you know sales tax is a good thing. We would like sales tax, but it's okay. There will put bars on every corner and then places on everything solve all our problems. Yeah, maybe I don't know them. Maybe these not cheap, but I can now go next town over and I I have our best friend's son has gone to this particular dispensary. So wage. I don't need to pick brains, but it's it's helpful to you know, talk to them. I mean, they're well, they're knowledgeable. They're not dead people knowledgeable. They're they're called something usually called budtenders that is really cute. But you know the they're not again, they're not doctors, but they they get a lot of feedback and you know, a lot of this is you know is really fairly straightforward that and of course A lot of it is that also sort of myth the nobody really thinks there's any difference between indica and sativa, you know, it's really there's no scientific basis for years. but just generally speaking it is you definitely go about it the right way you go to the dispensary and get em, you know talk to somebody who's knowledgeable and again by in the smallest doses that you can you can always take more I would generally speaking I would buy CBD separately from THC because if you get dispensaries have high overheads, and so and also there's a, you know more of a tax break on t h c so that if you buy if you buy them separately in the sense that first off your dog To get CBD cheaper online or or other or just regular stores cuz they they take a less of a markup and but and I get your THC at a marijuana dispensary and then you can combine them or take them separately that sometimes the high THC stuff will also have CBD in it. But again, that's the key thing about legalization is you get labels of what you're getting and they're proud good about that is we have a testing company and you know, occasionally we find that they have too much THC in the CBD here they have you know, again, it's like quality control anything else. They're called the control pills, but for the most part, you know, you're not getting anything dangerous that particularly not in any given dose so wage. I would you know, I think that's probably the best way to do you definitely did the right thing going to the century and getting advice. Well, yeah, and it's it was like I said, I'm not I don't drink because I like to eat chocolate. It's not it's a a calorie decisions not in any kind of moral. You know, I have no prohibition against it. Although I do think a lot of our friends drink too much to cannabis enough. I don't know maybe that'll be a conversation for another day. But you know, I I knew exactly what I was trying to achieve personally and they were very good about it and they said these mints take about 20 to 30 minutes to kick in and they are not like 30 minutes. It's like, you know, okay, it's kicked in now and I think I've only taken two months once or twice there was a day recently where everything was irritating me. It was like every nerve was getting rubbed raw. I don't know what was going on the dog dog. No, it wasn't even watching TV. It was just life, you know pandemic like they wall of Americans can relate to that these days. Yeah. So I finally at the end of the day I was like, you know, I still just want to be like punch people which is completely not my personality. It was like, oh, yeah, I have those mints. So I went got him out of my purse and took two and everything stopped irritating me and I slept really really good. And then I was mad that I didn't remember to do that earlier in the day cuz I've never experienced before I've never experienced that since thankfully but now if I do know exactly what to do and now the mints are not in my purse or in the bathroom because I don't need them obviously for my mom because she's gone but one last very important question and I hope people have gotten all the way to the end of this because I think I might have to tag this on to the front. And I hope you know the answer to this one. The reason I tried to get my mom off of her Pharmaceuticals was to twofold one was cuz I don't think they were doing any good but not want to introduce CBD or anything with THC in it on top of pharmaceuticals for fear of really weird interaction and I'm getting the impression and I don't know why that that is not necessarily something to worry about Am I Wrong well first so it would it depends on the package everything in my life everything in my life except underwear, but that's a good joke so far so good wage, but you know the that there is a prospect possibility of interactions particularly wage. THC more than CBD. But again, the key thing there is start with a a small dose of the CBD oil and the and you know, if they're no problems and and and but no obvious benefits, you know increase the dose of them every day. And then if you if you if there if it doesn't work or if there are problems then stop but there's really if the problem one of the things that we met really a problem is that particularly people with Alzheimer's or people My Generation generally and that ninety percent of the people my age are all Dead End Road at least one and the and how these drugs interact is something that we don't know anywhere near enough about every time you add another one, then you add more variables than and then and so particularly, you know, you get up three or four or five and you know, how long does CBD going to interact with a combination of a b and c nobody knows and that's you know, that's a problem with or without going to have a noise that really is an In-Shape. But again, you know home start do it easy to start with small doses and and increase and see what happens because you know, it's it's not going to kill you. Well, that's a good that's probably a good place to stop not being dead is a good place to start. Yeah, that is very true. You know as many of my listeners know my paternal grandmother is a hundred to her mind is still really good. She does repeat one story fairly regularly, but not she repeated every time I visit her. I don't see her she's mostly blind, but she has a repeated three times while I'm there. Thank god. Well, I probably repeat do stories while we were talking today, which is a normal. You know, I just there was a story my mom repeated all the time and I got really really good at disrupting The Narrative and thought I couldn't disrupt her and get her onto a different topic. Then I could I could pivot talk. It should she would always tell me about how when she was pregnant with her first, which was me that my job. Colonel grandmother said oh well now you'll be getting rid of the dogs. Right? Well, that's I'm off so bad. Okay, I'll be fifty for November of this year twenty-twenty. My mom had Advanced Alzheimer that story kept coming out and unfortunately, sometimes it came out when my paternal grandmother was around that time wasn't comfortable moments. If I could not knock her off of that track out of that group that I could sometimes pivot and start asking her questions about her dogs any dogs my dogs and and move it along. But so yeah thankfully, but you have not done that to me. My grandmother does not do that to me. Well, by the way, I will leave this with you in parting CBD is good for dogs and is really probably should try it with my old guy. He has nerve are yes, and he is on some we gets a shot twice a month. He's on he is on the same drug that some people take off. And I'm not going to build remember the name but it's for nerve arthritis, but he'll love the CBD. Okay, you hear that Jinx home. He's always close by so I will definitely check into that for him cuz he pants a lot. Well, if you just put CBD drop, they're they're actually some places actually sell CBD for for pets but on the other hand, you know, you can just get a dropper bottle and put CBD on their Kibbles and bits and off that it really does help. I would definitely try it cuz he's getting to the point. He's almost thirteen just very old for Golden and not if he's not sleeping and he's not fully medicated. So right before right after he's gotten his Gabapentin is one of the drugs he just pants and he paid off. Lot, he likes to paint really close to me. But if you listen really really maybe if you turn your turn this podcast up really loud. I don't know. I can't tell you all of them. Today's is probably one that you hear heavy breathing in the background and it's just the dog not doing anything weird how disillusioned they may have to put him on camera because there was one day I actually had to I was editing a podcast that I was like, oh I hear is dog panting. It's driving me bananas. So I was about to move them out of the ring when I stopped the recording took the earbuds out. I'm like, oh crap. It's not the actual dog. It's the recorded. So, you know, there's a little background on podcast life. Well, I appreciate this. This has been fascinating and we all gotta stick together. So give them some cheap CBD dog. Cocoa Farms is what it's called here. Well not here in my town but in the next town over so All righty. You have a good time in Texas and don't blow away or don't come back to California till we stop having fires. Oh God. Yeah. So do y'all have a good day now. Thank you. Thank you. Do I hope you enjoyed that conversation enough to share with friends and family a while. You're at it. Could you head over to Apple podcast and leave a rating and possibly a review even if you've done this in the past this helps new caregivers find this podcast and we're still growing. We really appreciate the assistance while you're on the computer pop on over to my website. It's about as dumb as it will ever be I believe will always be a work-in-progress. There are articles recipes all kinds of fantastic information while you're there make sure to sign up for the newsletter that way you'll never miss anything into Resting and with our busy lives. I know that's really easy to do and there's always I'll be in your ears again next Tuesday. home

alzheimer AIDS California Salk Institute Dynamics and challenges and co Igor boussole terrible degenerative disease San Francisco dementia Pago Pago United States Richard Cohen National Institute of drug abu Texas Mexico federal government Mel Brooks Mark Meadows headache
The Blunt Truth About Weed

Science Rules! with Bill Nye

59:34 min | 1 d ago

The Blunt Truth About Weed

"Hey educators past year we could all use some extra support. Meet school me a podcast four educators by educators from the national education association. You'll gain valuable tips and tools to help you help. Your students listen to school. Me available anywhere. Podcasts are found. This message comes from our sponsor. Three m who is using science and innovation to help the world respond to covid nineteen. Three implants are running around the clock producing more than ninety five million respirators per month in the us. Three m has also maximize production of other solutions including bio form of filtration hand sanitizers and disinfectants. Learn more at three am dot com slash cove. It three m science applied to life. The we're all science people. Exact evolution does some pretty funky things question. Incites is how chief -ment equal skill times effort. That's the recipe for success. I'm above so cool to blow your mind. We can make the world better for everybody. Starting now welcome welcome to science rules. I'm your host bill nye. This is the show where science rules. It's a call in show if you wanna be on the show and i hope you do. Leave us a voicemail. Two zero one. Four seven two zero seven eight five or go to www ask bill. Nye dot com. You can also check me out on all the social media that the young people used to find out about our upcoming guests. I'm joined once again. My friends by science writer editor and dear friend for reals corey pal. Greetings corey greetings bill. I'm so glad you haven't gotten tired of made yet Say that. I'll say that you know a a good point. I i'll be more careful in what. I am the assertions that i make in the future but look i i. Love doing this podcast. I love the sense of normalcy here. If i may use the word we try to keep some normality going out in the world and the world is starting to feel a little more normal again and one of the ways. I know the world is getting a little more normal is when i walk outside and my brooklyn neighborhood. It smells like marijuana everywhere again. There's that period with people were staying indoors and they're all masked in and the smell went away but it got to the point where you just smell that all the time and that smells like oh the world is coming back marijuana's everywhere again and made me wonder why is marijuana everywhere. Now and the stores are selling cd oils. There's a whole movement to spread the legalization of marijuana. It feels like the attitudes are really changing. There's seems to be a lot more research going on but like to like to understand like the know what's going on behind all this Delightful normal smell going on in my neighborhood. According you you've once again hit the nail head wise. Yes our guest. Today is dr margaret hannah. She is professor of neurobiology at the columbia university medical center and the director of the cannabis research laboratory. Your crm dr margaret hannie. Welcome to science roles. May i call you make. Yes placed fabulous. Okay fundamentally first question. I think anybody would ask what goes on the old cannabis research laboratory. What are we there. We we wanted to get a picture of it. Yeah now. I really have the best job on the planet I have one of the very air laboratories. It's called the residential laboratory where i can bring in non treatment seeking daily marijuana smokers. They live in the lab with me. They smoke marijuana in the lab with me. And i measure their behavior around the clock twenty four hours a day. Sleep food intake some Cognitive performance heart rate and blood pressure. So i really can get a very nuanced time dependent sense of what marijuana's doing behaviorally and on the behavioral pharmacologists by training. So i gave euro pharmacologist. Help us out there. So it's really a a careful analysis of the effects of drugs on behavior so you know early on the. My first studies with with cannabis in this laboratory was to really document if there a withdrawal syndrome from cannabis and again. I had the perfect place to do that. Because i have people smoke repeatedly throughout the day. Then i switch their active cannabis with placebo cannabis. How do we get placebo cannabis. I'll kind of studies conducted by federally funded researchers. This is provided by the government. So there's a farm in mississippi that grows cannabis and provides it to people studying You know who have federal funds to study it. It's the only cannabis i can study. Agricultural professionals have found a type of marijuana that does not get you high. Well know what they do there for the placebo extract. The thc so it is cannabis and they take out delta ninety eight which is the active really the active component. How did you get out out. it's alcohol extraction. I don't do it. Good old alcoholics direction. Coronavirus person smoking cannot tell the difference. That's a really good question What they experience is good expectancy effect. So what i tell. Participants who move into the lab is. I'm going to be giving you cannabis the strength going to change at any time. You'll tell me what you're feeling but I'm not gonna tell you what i'm giving you. And so when. I switch out active for placebo. I get a very nice little time dependent increase. In ratings of i feel high i could drug effect. They think it's week cannabis does hey similar. It's not quite as tasty. I gather but they think it's week which is important part of me. Maintaining might my blind so doing the study we were able to really track across all these behavioral measures withdrawal symptoms. How long they take to peak and then go away so you. This is where you got smoke. The tail of the dog. That bit you or something like that you know with all drugs you know those withdrawal symptoms. Go away when you get a little bit of that. Drug again like a hangover. Not that i would know. I've heard How long do they stay in the lab. These are people who have self selected who can leave what. I would consider a job for a number of days. Or what have you to like. Get high okay. So these are self selected people. But absolutely yeah. There's a by long. Do they stay with you. Well it depends on the study. And i've done. I've been doing this for over twenty years. you know. i've had people stay as long as three weeks. It's law they don't go outside. They don't have their cell phone. They don't talk to their family. Because i want to control for all those han found you know they get in a fight with girlfriend. They'll be in a bad mood and say you know win a bet. They'll be in a good mood. So so it's a very controlled environment. I bring four of the minute at time and of course consequences of being in that controlled environment. But i can control most of our studies there about a week when you were first describing it. You said that you in your job you get to smoke with the with these people. You mean that you're observing them. Smoke you yourself are not participating no no no no please. let's clear. I am not partaking. Now they are you know. They're on cameras. And their staffers and microphones in the lab. And we actually were so controlling. We control how they smoke. So i know exactly how much of each cigarette that they're getting time there. Inhales lifetime their explanation south. I come from preclinical training. I really worked with rats and mice and non human primates beforehand. So i approach. Approach my my work in this very controlled by okay. So who funds this research. The national institute of drug abuse. It's a it's a a branch of the national institute of health they most research and they fund our research. So what's the what's the big finding that you found. Well honestly you know my original documentation of this time dependent pharmacologically specific withdrawal syndrome. Was you know a start to my whole career Because there hasn't really been that that sort of research. There had been suggestions that something happened but to be able to show the time course of each symptom and to show that it's pharmacologically specific that if i can give very low dose of all those withdrawal symptoms go away so it's not just people being grouchy about being in the lab it's it's literally a withdrawal from the active ingredient to kind of so that was that started off a whole career from there is really documenting. A carefully controlled way this withdrawal syndrome. Which isn't well known. You know to be honest. Most people aren't terribly aware that that happens in seattle in washington state which is one of the first states to legalize marijuana and the question. Everybody had which seems to me tied to this withdrawal. How long it stays in your system. Would everybody wondered about when this whole thing started was. Is there a test a sobriety test for the effects of marijuana and is there a way a cop pulls a guy over could tell whether or not he's high now and it's actually a real problem. It's a real problem and it has to do with the complexity of the the pharmacokinetics of thc you know so so unlike alcohol or cocaine or heroin you know. Those are all water soluble and you know. They're absorption is very clear the level of alcohol in your blood predicts behavior pretty well which is why we can have a breathalyzer. That's pretty good for say for for measuring impairment. Right you know we can see this amount of alcohol in your blood. Predicts this amount of impairment and say society that if it's above this we're not gonna save. You should drive. You're in trouble if you drive. I don't see how we're ever gonna get there with t. Hcf lips billick. It gets absorbed into all the tissues the levels of thc in your blood. Don't predict very well. What your behavior in let's breakdown. That word lipa philip. It sticks to to fat in your body that what that means. Yeah where alcohol is water. Soluble right dissolves. Right into water. Thc does not that. The canal all the component plant life fat they get into your fat cells and they get distributed very very quickly and the plasma levels. It's it's so remarkable. Don't predict behavior well so you could be very impaired. If you have an edible for example he could be very very impaired. Your plasma levels could be very very low. It just gets absorbed out of the bloodstream into the body so fast. The blood doesn't predict it. So i don't know the answer in it. I think it's a really significant question is how we do field sobriety because right now. I don't think any of them pass. There's some behavioral tests. But unless you have a baseline what people were doing before they started. That's not going to be. I don't think that hold up in court so it's almost intractable problem with. Thc you were saying that the thc gets into your fat cells you know the gets kind of embedded in the body. Does that mean it stays with you a really longtime do we know how long it does you know. And it's it does kind of seek out over time like you could be in. It depends really how how heavily smoking so i don't know if it's known very very well. But i know that there's evidence that heavy smokers stop and that teach see is slowly leaching out of their cells for quite a while and whether it stays high enough for you to fail a blood test i mean or a urine test job for example you know it varies a lot by your fat content. Your sex these sorts of things a lot of things. We don't entirely have worked out. But you know we've done studies comparing people. Smoking and people taking cannabis early you know and be level of intoxication will be the same we can get them. Both really pretty intoxicated but the blood levels of thc will be so hundred. Fold higher when they smoke it. Just it just goes from the lungs blood to the brain and it's much much higher so the other people are just as intoxicated but their levels are so low to the point that they probably pass even a field sobriety test if they took me. Meanwhile they're intoxicated beyond belief. So how do you know they're intoxicated. Is it self reporting. It is it is and you know. That's it's pretty lawful drug users. You know they're very good about reporting the way that they're feeling and you could see changes over time and you could see changes with the amount that you give them so so. The bulk of abuse liability for drug drug studies is self report. There's not a lot of other ways to get at. Do people like the effect that they're feeling but does through their pupils dilate or do their hand. I motor skills deteriorate. The best kind of the most predictable is increased heart rate. That one is your objective outcome. Measure that you could see. Somebody has smoked or use cannabis is there an in. That will follow the time. Course of i feel high. So i knew a guy who i guess suffered from marijuana withdrawal strongly and he ended up dying in dying heart attack and everybody around the people. I knew who knew him felt. It was from Just too much dope. He just couldn't stop. Is it possible that his heart attack was brought on by years of getting high. That research is really just starting to kick off. It's not a profound effect like with cocaine for example but You know there is a very reliable as i said. Increased by about ten to fifteen beats per minute when people smoke and there is some indication there's some epidemiological studies suggesting that people who have maybe a vulnerability in cardiovascular or that there could it could increase the risk for cardio vascular event still sounds iffy. Well it's not as if again it's it's not crack cocaine. You know it's not. It's not as this enormous robust cardiovascular event but it is it definitely has an increased heart rate so you refer continually to cannabis to the drug the chemical that makes you high to this nebot there several chemicals involved in. We have a voicemail. That i think is going to ask a former this question. That might be clearer than i'm able to ask. Let's roll that digital recording. I don i My question is what is the difference between delta eight t h z and delta nine. Thc thank you wow. That's that's advanced class. Let's start with sir. Thc and then get to the differences. So there's a reason people are starting to get very curious about delta and i can tell you involves money but the plan itself has hundreds of over one hundred forty anyway different chemical components canaveral as we call them. They're unique to the cannabis plant and many of them are called minor. Cannabinoid delta aid is a minor cannabinoid and that means it's typically present in very low levels in. Thc one that everyone makes money on and loves is delta ninety two so that's what most plants are bred to have high levels of nine and that's just continuing to rise because that's that's the one that really gets you the the kind of effect you know about. Cbd we'll we'll talk about as well that's the other primary adenoid. We've been studying a lot. There's many many others. Though that are minor can happen with as i said president very low level so delta a is again berry president low levels but now with the legalization of hemp with the farm bill there are people now spraying delta eight on hemp and selling it delta eight is not well understood but it is thought to be sim like a less potent version of delta. Deny i've never been able to study at no. Nobody i know has done careful study with it but there has been a few open label studies leaving by open label which opened. So it's it's where you tell the patients what they're getting and the doctors know what they're giving and so they're typically not viewed by people like me. you know. Put a lot of weight behind it because there's a lot of problems when you do studies that way but but anyway delta eight. We don't know a lot about. But i think there's a lot of curiosity better because it appears to be on sale in certain states right now because people are again billions of dollars being made with this whole cannabis story and we're very limited in what's legal because again by federal standards. The whole plant is is illegal. It's a schedule one. Drug like heroin. The plant is schedule one. But how are they selling it in washington state so it's So states are of course you know. Each state has its own hodgepodge of legal medical recreational. Cbd only each state has its own hodgepodge of the federal government's kind of just Closer ties in years around. This fact that it's schedule one drug so most states are doing what they're doing. No one's really clamping down on that as an aside as federal researcher. I still have to go by that schedule. One standing so when i get cannabis it's in a six hundred pound safe behind a door get into with my fingerprint and i'd have to save all the butts because they are considered like heroin. What you're saying is it's it's very difficult to study. what are the. What are the obstacles like. Was it difficult to get funding. Was it difficult to establish this. This lab what did you have to go through to do what you do. The obstacles are enormous to study schedule. One truck you know again what we need as a society desperately is really well controlled studies for the for the medical use of. That's the other thing. Here's been very very very little good medical study of because it schedule so people are using it everywhere all day long for paying for all sorts of things. Nobody's done the research been just a tiny tiny bit and it's because it's scheduled one very very hard to study so if you were in charge what would you do make it some very least than what you know is to allow researchers to treat it like a schedule to or an anti drug we can do the studies then right now for. I can't even get the compounds i want. I can't even study. Cpt there's no source of cbd in this country that the fda would approve me to say so that is scheduled to me. What's what's an example of a scheduled to drug schedule. One drugs are are lsd heroin and cannabis and they're considered drugs with high abuse liability and no medical benefit schedule to is still considered with abuse liability but they have medical benefit and they include drugs like vicodin and methadone cocaine Feno and for example. So so they do have some abuse liability considerable abuse liability but they also have medical benefit. Unlike purportedly cannabis against s society is is just getting broader and looser and using cannabis for everything right now. nc a my world has gotten actually harder. So it's it's it's it's my source of drug. I have one place. I can get it. And so that limits me. Once i do get it and i have the funding to do it the fda and the da to approve the research that i'm doing the f. The you know these appropriately very cautious about what they let scientists give to people and so they wanna make sure it doesn't have mold fungus. You know pesticide. So so that's why we can only get from this month. Sources because this government farm has done all the all the work and can show the fda this is from seed to plant. This is what happened to this thing. So it's safe though we know it's safe as opposed to if i go to a dispensary. I don't know if that really contains what they're saying it contains. I don't know what how was grown. And you know all details so so there's just a lot a lot to do the funding again. The national drug abuse recognizes cannabis is Is a drug of abuse so that they're willing to fund those studies another portion of my research that was also its potential therapeutic use so the studies are hard to do. But i'm also. I wanna do placebo control. That's kind of my religion. And that's that's something that's so hard to do. But i do have the setup to do it so so. I've been dipping my toes into as many medical questions. I tend to just some of those stick around for more science rules after this kiko create super cool accessible hands on projects designed to expose kids of all ages two concepts in steam science technology engineering art and math corey yes. Kiwi co believes in the power of kids and that small lesson today can mean big world changing ideas tomorrow. Crates are designed by experts tested by kids and they teach new steam concepts. 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They were fast and efficient and the md was caring said over my prescription for my illness. While on the phone with me this service is actually amazing. And i only wish would have utilized it sooner. Download the app today or visit tele doc dot com slash science rules to register today. So you're ready when you need a doctor's care or schedule doctor visit today at teluk dot com. That's t. l. a. d. o. C. dot com slash science roles. Rules is back. This is a big deal. I mean in my neighborhood. It seems like there's a store on pretty much every block selling oil with some medical claims attached to it. You're telling me nobody is studying that. There's no science behind that. Not only that very few contain the amount of cbd's they say they contain if they say what happened in all they can contain active medical ingredients. Sometimes they have. Thc sometimes they have many other things. They put other ingredients in. Because no one's really minding the store. The fda on occasion clamp down hard and say stop saying cbd does go after a company. And say you can't say cures cancer. But the their fight it's whack-a-mole it's constant. It's everyone's claiming dvd's so people come to me often and say where could i get cbd to to study it. I there's no source that i trust right now know something i'm very interested in. I'm doing studies on it. But at this moment i can't tell you. It does anything except decrease seizures in gravely ill children. Who have the seizure disorder that that's where the studies have been done well conducted in. And so we know that's one thing. Cbd does we can feel certain about but the rest of it. You don't know if it has cbd if you rub it on your arm versus smoke versus swallow it. That's all going to give you. Okay we have some great listener questions. Listen we have some listener question. Try this one. We have one about Cbd and relieving pain. Can we roll. That voicemail is my question is about. Cbd i see so many claims about its ability to relieve pain. But i'm not sure whether any of that is real or hype. Is there any research any evidence to show that c b. cb does have pain relieving capability The short answer now again we have free clinical studies suggesting it has anti inflammatory effects. I think that there is going to be something shown but what type of pain. What and how what route of administration rubbing it on your elbow hurts versus smoking. It very very different so we are doing a study. We just completed a study. I'm really excited about the use of see beatty for a certain type of neuropathy pain. Chemotherapy induced neuropathic pain. So people who are treated for breast cancer they take these medications that that destroy you know or harm their nerve south and they're the majority. Have this terrible pain in their hands and typically and in animals. There's good evidence that cbd with a little bit of thc really effective for that type of pain so talking work for every type of pain if it works at all and we have to know the dose and we have to know how to take it. So there's a million questions we have to still ask but for me to do the study. I had imported from canada. I had to get importers lice. Ta schedule when importers license in get it from canada because there was no source of of cd that the fda trusted in the united states. So what you're buying at the farmer's market or the store you have no idea what you're getting and cbd contra percent inert you know so again at certain doses it can It has liberal consequences. It can change the way you metabolize other medication. So you can't just gobble it up by you know the fistful and not think it's going to have. Some muster must be genetic component that is to say the hand you're dealt by nature. Can we roll the voicemail from shiloh. Which may help focus this question. High barron corey. This is shallow montana. I was wondering what the scientific answer to. What a badge on. Cd is i understand that everyone kind of has different experiences but is it just like an over-stimulation of nerve abed trip. We got a lot of very slow questions. This time around really. She was as she was as one of the things. You test reels anecdotally. At the speed of people speech they really do sound slow. Is that one of the things you test for. I can tell you that. Twenty five years of working with cannabis. Smokers has been delight totally group of people. But i have not measured. Bring them into the waiting room. Their friends their friends within fifteen minutes. It's a it's been a there. Great group to work with kerley. Unfamiliar to me. Her shallows question was a bad trip on cd. Is there such a thing you know. My i think the most parsimonious answer she there was probably something else in there. But there is something that know i've given very high doses of abd orally in pill form. And i don't see anything people don't report. It can't tell it from placebo but there is interesting. Work out of johns hopkins showing that when you smoke. Cb or vape it that it has some effect and it's pure cd that no one can define. It's not like a typical marijuana. Hi it's another kind of the important thing to now Cbd really has a completely different mechanism of action than thc. So nobody understands entirely how it works it seems to bind to a lot of different receptors. So the answer is either something else was in there she smoked. It might have been. There is some kind of effect that happens a little bit of an intoxication. But the funny thing is nobody can describe it. Can we roll this this voicemail from our. Hey bill all right My name's alan. I'm calling from new jersey. They legalized marijuana yesterday. And that's awesome. It's so cool. It's legal now My question is how come like when my friends. And i smoke it legally. Of course we call it a lot. How come does that affect. Our lungs are as black as those advertisements for like to stop smoking cigarettes. That's my question. Thank you i've wondered about. That too is marijuana. Smoke is dangerous cigarette smoke now. It's really interesting question and you know. Of course we. The short answer is. There is a risk from smoking. Smoking anything is harmful and so there's increased likelihood of cronkite and other respiratory ills from smoking. Marijuana there's a scientist donald tashkin out in california who is an analogy expert and he has done study after study to see about increased cancer risk with people who smoke marijuana. it's tricky because most maryland smokers many also smoke tobacco cigarettes. But there hasn't been any good link between cannabis smoking and cancer. Which is it's been a fascinating. There is some anti tumor effects of thc that there's evidence of that but there's evidence of anti tumor. Yes there is some really really intriguing tickly for brain cancer so that was one of the main things. You're studying leo. Blessed doma there's a assiting an exciting Early early research about cbd and thc for dom westover terrible terrible of brain cancer. And that's what. Joe biden sunday up. And it's it's die or you get the diagnosis and and you know the fatality. Within within a year and a half this is like ninety five percent so too terrible terrible form of cancer and there's three clinical studies in in vitro studies showing that cbd again and thc have anti tumor effects for that type of cancer again. Early early stages. I'm not recommending. Anybody go out and and smoke so we did a study with one patient. And then there's been a recent publications showing that improves survival rate and they. The fda gave it a special waiver to do the study because the data are really interesting. There's a lot more to be done but dvd thc for that type of cancer very intriguing so back to the lung. All i can say is. There's no clear link between cannabis use and lung cancer but certainly smoking has respiratory effects again. It increase the bronchitis and other sorts of respiratory illness. It's just hasn't been linked to cancer so vaping. The plant i believe doesn't have necessarily quite have the same lung consequences of smoking of inhaling burning plant versus heating up enough to get the volatile gases from the plant. But i do want to quickly say don't ever vape the thc oils that. There's been horrible horrible horrible consequences of what's what's horrible consequence of vaping. The muster guests disease. I mean people have died. Young people are in the hospital last summer. This there was a whole series because street. Chemists were putting. Thc in vitamin e. oil thinking vitamin healthy. But it's healthy to rub on your skin not to inhale into your lungs of when you inhale to exceed with vitamin a. It has horribly popcorn. Lungs it does terrible things to the lung so i try to tell all my participants in vaping. The plant is one thing but vaping those oil to you have to be super super careful with So when you say bought on the street is this as opposed to buying in a dispensary. Is there some quality control that we don't purportedly. I don't trust a lot of the You know making the plant one thing vaping oil just really know your source. Hi bill i was just wondering if you could explore Pregnant women and if x of using cannabis when you're pregnant or during postpartum thank you so much. I'm a huge fan. And i'm a teacher. So thank you. I so i have a very strong opinion about this because know one thing we haven't talked about is the role of cannabis cabinet in brain development. So you know we've been talking about the plant which is called fighter can happen but there is also in our brain endo can happen is so we have a an enormous number of chemicals that resemble. Thc that they're called endo can happen and we have a number of receptors of cabinet receptors. And they play a vital role. In almost all development but cannabinoid receptors one of the most common cheap protein coupled receptors in the brain so anyway very very important and they play a role in brain develops so exposing developing rain to these chemicals is really really not wise. There are two times of brain development. That where the brain is developing this enormous pace. It's in utero and it is an adolescence adolescence. Of course many people. Start smoking cannabis. Ben i have two sons. They're in their twenties now. But i really just tried very hard to make sure. It wasn't a ton of candidates use happening at critical times of brain development is one thing if you're thirty five smoking every day. It's another thing if you're fourteen smoking every day so but really think very long and hard and you know dispensaries. Unfortunately you call and say you're pregnant. Woman who has is nauseated. They recommend you come in and get kind of us. And that is i think that's criminal. I think you know i. I know well beg. Rain development is happening and a biological plausibility. that's going to have a very strong impact biological plausibility. So along that line. Can we roll the voicemail from payton. Pay bail and corey my questions about cbd and create the use. I'm a high school student. And i got a lot of questions from some of my other friends mother usage. I think i'm the smart one About how it affects the brain and like why doesn't anybody know the science behind it especially younger crowd during high school and college. So i was wondering if you could tell me the answer to that. I could tell them to make me look smart. You know unfortunately those particularly for men it takes quite a while for that last part of the brain to really develop that prefrontal cortex so i look forward to and myself so. It's just everything that you know the poison the dose so again. If you're going to be smoking cannabis just try not to make it daily or an all day phenomenon. it's one it's just all in the dose all day phenomenom which again not hard to find. These are my participants. These are my research participants. So they're not. They're not hard to find. So you know. My recommendation really does not have good defects. We don't think that they're permanent. But you certainly know that of cognition affected when you're when you're when you're intoxicated so you know your memory. Short term memory is affected. So it's not gonna help your causing college so you just try to try to be reasonable. Can we. roll this voicemail about the endo cannabinoid system. I know you touched on it. But at this i hope will help me understand it can. Let's roll that digital recording bail. I'm a really big fan of your podcasts. And my question is about the endo canals annoys them. What exactly is it. Is everyone system or all kind of the same also. Why don't they teach this system in school say medical school. Pa school nursing school. You know simple stuff like that. I often. I cannot wait to hear the answer by. It's a system and you know what she touched. Upon his is relative to many other systems. This is a fairly new one. We didn't really find the avenue receptors until the eighties and really the chemicals in the brain until the ninety. So this is new for us. That's why it's really exciting. Science the study. it's poorly taught. You know i think it's terrible for physicians. everyone says. Ask your doctor about cannabis and can avoid. They know because there's no so in terms of the endo cannabinoid system. There has been an enormous growth in that area You know again. We know that they play a role in in brain development. We know they play a role stress and anxiety food intake a whole range of physiologic systems. Because it's really all throughout the brain and there are genetic and individual differences. I'm sure you know people who smoke. And they get instantly all their anxiety goes away single one of my participants who smoke very very heavily. The reason they smoke is it takes stress away but many others get anxious so you know many people who don't go onto smoke heavily get anxious and in fact people are smoking this really high potency often end up in the er with panic attack not for anything other than an apathy so people's response to the plant and their anxiety is it seems to be genetic when starting to work that out but people really vary that and that's because of their endo cabinet syse so how does it work is it like dopamine receptors like. They're in a specific place in the brain. Yeah the cb one receptors are really everywhere in all the areas you think about. What kind of toxication so that. They're in areas associated with pain or in areas associated with you know pleasure. What's the evolutionary reason or that these things came to be there all over your brain. They're all over your bracy and know that they're they're important and they they've been around for a while you know stress you know the migdal that area of the brain that mediates stress the endo can play a critical role in modulating that in and that's a critical evolutionary Characteristic the ability to respond to stress into respond. No one to be frank afraid and know when not to be afraid. And there's a stoddard woman who happens to have this. Genetic sniff will has very very high levels of one of the candidates and the reason why they figured it out is. She has almost no pain. She had surgery with very very little on anesthesia and she has very little anxiety she has. It's of course it's an nf one and it's but it's just a fascinating kind of link into that somebody with these high levels have been Traits it seems dangerous. Like you cut yourself not know it ends. Yeah yeah. I think it is dangerous but you know her. Her lack of anxiety is also really intriguing. Science will be right back You may be surprised to know that. Great insurance is available for surprisingly great rate. And you know what else is surprisingly great accidentally coming across scientific breakthrough like a nineteen forty-five when percy spencer was walking by a magnetron at his job. The way you do any notice that the chocolate barness pocketed melted a few experiments in an exploding egg later and ding. The microwave oven was born was stayed for him. You could get surprisingly great rates on your car insurance and you don't even need a special connection on the inside. You could get these awesome rates just for being you. If feels like you're getting the special treatment. We all deserve these days and state farm is not just another insurance company. They have the coverage that meets your needs for a price that fits your wallet like a good neighbor. State farm is there. You're listening to science. Hi i'm calling. Because i guess you guys are talking about cannabis news and i was just wondering if maybe you could talk about the neurological effects. i know most people smoke it for like executive to deal with that and how it comes down or makes them more relaxed. And i'm just wondering if you could cover that as a veteran i use it as well for the same reasons just seems to just you know maller meow and i kinda wanna know. What's the reason for that. You know my my guess. Is that as i was mentioning the endo cabanillas play this critical role in stress. Response in the big fella and you know a too much i think. Look send you one way into little. We'll send you the other way. So you know i think for for many individuals. The combination of ringing in avenue in having your own set of supplies can be a nice a nice mix. Many people though can't find a dose that where they feel comfortable they just get anxious uncomfortable or paranoid and so these are people that don't end up using our on 'cause it doesn't give them the effect that they like they don't come down in fact it's the opposite and my guess is this is happening at the level of the magdala. And it's an interaction with your own dodging Supply but in terms of how we know this role of anxiety. There's just really good free clinical models of anxiety and you could play with the exact amount of endo can avance in the amiga and looked at behavior and see genyk zang's the olympic types of behavior. And you can raise the end of nap. North in that one grains site in animals and see a reduction in sight. So that's how you get at the methodist. What about in your research. You're studying human primates your actual actual marijuana smokers. Are you able to map the correlation between how much they smoke. They smoke and their anxiety levels. Is that something you can study. We measuring zaidi. You know all throughout the day in the lab. I don't try to map it with what they're smoking outside. But you know one of the major areas. I see anxiety is when they're in withdrawal are so again like symptoms of metrology really Anxiety irritability restlessness uncomfortable and really disrupted sleep. Sleep is very sensitive to cannabis affects. Many people smoke to help them sleep but then boy when they quit sleep is messed up. And the other market thing we see in the lab is food intake drops. Nothing had people. I had to beg them to eat something. Because sometimes they're cooler take drops to almost nothing for the first day or two and then that kind of recovers but the mood symptoms scrape up little later. so it's irritability anxiety restlessness last. They'll take around three to five days withdrawal again. Cigarettes withdraw kicks in very quickly. Because it's this you know it's it's water soluble. It comes on quick. Goes away quick. So withdrawal is very quick with canopus again. That liquid felicity. It's slower easily. Takes at least twenty four hours for withdrawal to kick in lippo felicity loving of fence. Yeah wow so. Three days later is when the withdraw affected the strongest love and mood staff. I mean that's sleep is and that's destruct. That's terrible for people that have disrupted sleep and there's an interesting phenomenon. No one's really to sort out. But the other thing is people have nightmares. Their dreams become much more vivid so kind of a sickening suppresses ram sleep and so when people come off you get that overshoot but that one lasts a long time so people report disrupt light dreaming and nightmares particularly for weeks. Everything else goes away everything else recovers but the one thing That seems to last this nightmares. That can last for a long time. So we're talking about a lot of different ideas about about marijuana about cbd about thc not just advertising things that you see in the in the store on the corner but impopular news articles there all these different claims in hunches about what they do. Where do those things come from if we're if we can't really study if we don't really have good science where do these kind of half formed ideas come from. Sometimes there's a there's a kernel of truth or a hint of something and that that then they just make a mountain of it so for example there is some kind of evidence that a single dose of cbd has a small decrease in anxiety when you have give people a public speaking task which makes them anxious that a little blip in that but it was one dose and a small change so this study and it was published but then it became mop. Cbd helped with anxiety done and done so so so again sometimes can start with a kernel of truth and a lot is made from to italy. If it affects the way you feel so strongly it would not be surprising but it has some effect on pain or or any any emotion. It's just intuitively. I can see where you but he doesn't really do that if people again you can. Hound them with copd. And they can't sell. They took it versus versus placebo. It's it doesn't have a lot of effects like trump effects. Thc certainly does vote but it does have an effect on their endo cabinet. We don't know a lot about what. Cd does to the endo cannabinoid. So it's just a fad intuitive fad. So we know it's doing a few things you know it's it's involved with these certain receptors that seemed to be involved with information and paint so it's not a nurse and i again. I think we will tease out what it does. But it's just the public has jumped so far ahead of the science. And you know it's not doing anyone any good until we really started out but the other thing. We don't talk a lot about my. Religion is placebo controlled studies. The expectancy effect and we know with pain in particular. Pain is so sensitive to a placebo effect. So is i eighty. Two primary reasons. People are using medical cannabis pain anxiety. If you believe that that lotion is helping your about it will. It literally shuts down that pain. Pathway all the way from the brain down to the down to the elbow so placebos do physiologically work and so yes you might feel better with that seed even though it doesn't even have. Cd's doesn't get absorbed because of this enormous placebo effect but it seems like nobody cares or the marketers have taken over. It's just we want to know what it works for. What it doesn't work for so much culture so much jerusalem's not to be cynical but right now it's a billion dollar industry. They're starting to use the same tactics as tobacco companies. It's with tremendous medical. Potential by believe will find reasons for it. But it's not gonna work for everything and that's how it's being sold in. Cbd's a giant unknown still that being said the placebo effect is so real that. I'm sure there are a lot of people feeling better with whatever oecd conditioner. They're putting on their hair. So you know that's good for that individual but it just can't be our medical policy. Well i think you hit it. Just know that there's so much interest in so many different stories chasing so little information that even these these little research findings get blown out of proportion is that is that right. yeah. I agree with that completely. Yeah corey bill. I hear something. Yeah well it's loud. It's really loud demand. It sounds like lightning lightning round. Where we're going to ask kind of quick questions. Corey powell thespian performing the marijuana enjoying co host experiencing thunder bringing us to the lightning round. What's the most misunderstood part of your research. you know. This is more of a practical than anything else is that every buddy thinks because marijuana's now so available that my life is a dream and easy where in fact. The regulatory has gotten harder so again. Just because marijuana's everywhere. Everyone thinks a good. You're you're getting the candy store. You can study. Whatever you want. Has no bearing on what i could do. In fact it's harder than ever. So why is it harder than ever. Because the regulatory requirements not only haven't loosened if anything they've gotten stricter over twenty five years i've been doing this and It's a much harder life. So that's why we don't know as much science as we showed about this widely used drug. What's for you drinking alcohol or smoking weed. If i were designing society the last perhaps the last thing i would legalize with alcohol it. It's really at doses. High enough doses. It most neuro toxic. It's has the most behavioral toxicity if the only drug associated with real increased violence. And you can see this in mice rats monkeys and everything else. I use this study aggression alcohol on many levels as a terrible terrible drug that i happen to like very much. Smelt those retried prohibiting it but it did didn't work out so that's out of the bar tobacco's out of the barn too. We can do it. We can't and those two around the barn. I have some ambivalence about the benefit of adding another legal drug out of the barn. But it's out of the barn to cannabis is out of the bars so speaking of benefit speaking of benefit. What's the biggest benefit of marijuana use. Well i think we will be able to harness that plant For pain there is some indication for pain. And i think this one type of pain neuropathy gain is not treated well by opioids At all We clearly need deaker opioid use. And i think we'll be able to find ways cannabis to help alleviate pain in some ways. That's one one obvious thing but again there's a lot of science. We need to do that. That the things. I mentioned squeal bus oma in europe know. Chemotherapy induced panic. There's so many questions to ask still. But what's what's the biggest risk or danger of using marijuana is there any risk or danger does just sure there is absolutely you know again. I mentioned the brain development issues at certain times the life in particular. I think that it would be wise. Not to be using the hosting seventy. It has an cognitive effect. Certainly you know there is if you have a cardiovascular predisposition at promptly isn't a great idea and you know. Motivation has never been able to be demonstrated sufficiently in my mind but You know we many of us know anecdotally people who have trouble doing as much as they perhaps could have so people seek treatment for cannabis and one of the primary reasons is they feel like it's impeded their ability to achieve what they could have achieved so they might be still await or even other a college graduate they haven't it hasn't helped them achieve their goals. A know that so so. That's one of the reasons. Do people do seek treatment for it is it. Does you know there's a little bit of you know. Sit on the couch as opposed to get up and do something. Should we legalize marijuana nationwide. Megan your opinion. So you had to think about two different aspects of legalization. Recreational medical use recreational. I think is within the realm of a society determine for itself. Do we want this drug of abuse. Let's talk about the pros and cons. There's racial equities and how it's prosecuted. There's a lot of reasons to one could argue for legalization but to have people vote on medical. What is a medicine. What is not is wrong. It's not ethical typically appropriate. And it's the reason. Why new york what. It's a medicine for is completely different than what it is for new jersey. And that's not based on data so each state is voting on whether something's medicine we don't do that for nfl. We don't do that for chemotherapy agents. We don't vote. We we look at data and make a decision so right now. I think that that is it's bad for patients in. It's bad for everyone to do that. And see the now. It's another example of that. So i think we have to take the legalization of medical use. Let's get the data and say what it's a medicine for. Not so if you if you are queen of the forest if you were running the show what would you do. I would open up the floodgates of research and test everything in placebo controlled way and then we could say the patients. This will help this type of paint. It won't have that type of pain. How this type of cancer. Maybe not that type so along that line do we do. We need to make marijuana at least or at most schedule two. That would help. That would help allowed your queen of the forest. Would what would you do. I would open to researchers. Maybe schedule it. I think researchers are gonna do and careful job. they're not dispensing to to everybody so i would completely Frieda free up for scientific research. There is a little help. Their congress actually moving the. Da won't fudge this even under obama. They decided well. We take it off and what they say. It's we can't take off because it has demonstrated medical potential but we can't demonstrate past medical potential. Until we you're in a loop is yes yes. They're not taking enough so so we have to free up science if you did free up scientists in you're acquainted forest and you can get access to all the marijuana varieties you wanted h form that you'd want delta eight delta nine. Thc is there an amount if you get all these things. How long do you think it would take you to reach significant usable medical conclusions. Some studies you could not hear you. Could you could do placebo controlled studies to get your approval would be whole other level and there's lots of lots of concern with that but you know just in my little lab. I can move through two years five years twenty years. Oh i think five years for sure so when you're queen of the forest we're going to do research in five years. We're going to know answers to these very important medical questions and we will make the world better for everyone. Thank you so much for taking the time. Our guest today has been dr margaret haney professor of neurobiology and director of columbia university's cannabis research laboratory. Remember when it comes to seeing the smoke around cannabis rolls and if you like science ruled please take a moment to rate and review at apple. Podcast on stitcher helps us out. Helps other people learn about the show. So thank you be sure to look at all my socials for more information about her upcoming guests. I'm at bill nye on everything. And meanwhile if you'd like to leave his voice mail give us a call two zero one four seven two zero seven eight five or submit a question at goodall ask bill. Nye dot com science roles is produced by harry huggins and the very same glorious power dude. Frank olson mixed this episode. Casey offered composed our original theme josephine executive producer and stitcher. Everyone i it's rules stitcher.

fda corey corey pal dr margaret hannah cannabis research laboratory dr margaret hannie cancer national institute of drug abu billick lipa philip heart attack bill nye columbia university medical ce Kiwi co national education association Inhales national institute of health High barron corey
Opium: The 60s, 70s ad  80s. EP 08

Weekly Infusion

15:27 min | 2 years ago

Opium: The 60s, 70s ad 80s. EP 08

"Mm-hmm. Opiates opioids and the problems they caused or headline daily, but this drugs use actually started thousands of years ago. The latter part of the twentieth century was with Vietnam or the summer of love. And finally, the dare program here to guide us through this critical period is drug historian, Dr David court right whales after Bertha Madras, professor of psycho, biology and department psychiatry at Harvard and Dr Robert DuPont, drug chief presidents, Nixon and Ford and founder and president of the institute for behavioral health and how Dr dot com presents the history of opium. Eight the sixties seventies and eighties. The second half the twentieth. Century begins the modern era of treatment, though, shock therapy prefrontal bottom, prolonged institutional stays still being used other methods were emerging Dr David court right shocking development in drug treatment that emerged last half the twentieth century in my opinion was actually what happened at center. Non sending on was originally. Good thing. It was models or the the so-called second-generation therapy communities like data or Phoenix House. And they absolutely went off the rails in the seventies. And eighties and became this sort of violent. Call was engaged in legal activities methadone was becoming a popular form of opiate withdrawal treatment champion by again that Marie nice winter and our Connex anonymous was finally coming to the fore. The current version of the organization was. Founded in nineteen Fifty-three based on the traditional twelve mall. Recovery was established in southern California by Jimmy k after drinking and drug abuse. Nearly killed him at the beginning in a appeal to heroin addicts the sixties, however, ushered in era of major social change sparred by civil rights struggles, Vietnam, protests and more illicit lighten so-called drug use traditional social mores were challenged regularly. Young people are embracing Timothy Leary, call to turn on tune in drop out Nixon endeavor to associate marijuana use hippies and subsequently heroin use with African Americans this in an effort to control them and Levy legal action against both populations cannabis came to the United States the nineteen twenties with Mexican immigrants, but it's widespread. Use didn't occur until the sixties initially popular in the jazz community marijuana use quickly spread to the white youth of America where it's a fax along with other more dangerous drugs quickly became apparent to young doctor in northern California named David Smith. During the suffering of the burgeoning population of flower children in San Francisco Smith opened the Haight Ashbury free clinic in nineteen sixty seven. He began treating residents who walk through its doors by the hundreds every day, and whether they arrived ill with the Monja or drug withdrawal or addiction. His colleagues provided medical services free of charge. Declaring quote healthcare is a right not a privilege in two thousand seventeen the clinic. Celebrated its fiftieth anniversary in nineteen sixty nine investigation by congress determined that fifteen to twenty percent of soldiers in Vietnam had used heroin and that eighty percent had used marijuana to visiting troops. There Representative Robert Steele proclaimed that quotas soldier going to Vietnam runs a far greater risk becoming a heroin addict than a combat casualty. He was concluded that heroin use had to do with the fact that it was readily available cheap and help dull the miseries of war. Lots people were using drugs in Vietnam which made a quote normal normal response or normally to manage otherwise unbearable situation that your birth address. People who had become addicted to heroin, Vietnam. Where in procurement they were an office jobs. They were not on the frontlines. Most of the people is vast majority of soldiers on the frontlines didn't touch because they want to to survive. It was the people who were bored, and who had you know, had a lot of downtime, and it'll time where the ones who are the heavy heavier it while soldiers drug use Vietnam have begun to shine a light on heroin abuse. The current American epidemic had actually started around nineteen sixty five initially minority population living about of areas on both coasts were affected and from there. It spread to the larger cities all across the country by nineteen seventy it was in small cities as well. Dr Robert DuPont de just left my training at Harvard Medical School. And I h got my first job after my training. And that was working in department of corrections and Washington DC then was. Was gripped by very serious crimewave that had been a a major factor in the presidential campaign. Nineteen sixty eight Richard Nixon had called Washington the crime capital of the nation. So there was an Lyndon Johnson before that had been very focused on the crime. His too. So I hear I was working for the department of corrections and this crime epidemic. And the question was what's happening. Why is this happening and what to do about it? And I did a study at the DC jail. I took urine cups and went to everybody who came in for the month of August nineteen sixty nine and they've found that forty four percent of them were heroin users. And when I grasped the year that they I use heroin and put that graph of against crime rate. It tracked completely that was published in the New England Journal medicine, and it was a very big deal in terms of focusing attention on the heroin problem as it was a major driver of crimewave that was all over the country. It was particularly in Washington DC. And it was it was also very important that in those days Washington DC was a federal city though, the mayor of Washington while Washington was pointed by the president, Richard Nixon this case, there was clear responsibility for from the federal government that also. Introduced me to the White House. What are the major heroin suppliers or in this period was an infamous character by the name of Frank Lucas after a poor upbringing in rural North Carolina, Lucas moved to New York City and immediately embraced a criminal life. When a major Harlem gangster died he aspired to take over his turf and become a wealthy drug dealer by cutting out the middleman achieve this by traveling to southeast Asia and making connections in the golden triangle were large amounts of heroin were being produced having procured the necessary help by paying officials both overseas and at home, Lucas said about running one of the most profitable drug rings of the day. He was a flamboyant figure he claimed that drugs were being shipped back to him to United States via specially constructed coffins that had been fitted with false bottoms drugs were hidden underneath the bodies of soldiers upon his final release from prison Lucas returned to Harlem with remorse and spoke extensively about the terrible last impact of his criminal activity, particularly as rot on Harlem. He spent his remaining years trying to repair the damage. Had caused Nixon so-called war on drugs coincided with the signing of the controlled substance act in nineteen seventy this call for strict regulation of certain drugs and substances literally made certain drugs evil, the legislation placed prescription drugs into one of five schedules, depending on medical use abuse potential and few other factors mostly social schedule. One drugs are illegal and are deemed to have quote, no medical use the included heroin LSD marijuana and cocaine doctors couldn't even touch these drugs to get research necessary to see what potential us they might have abuse. Potential was to diminish with each successive wrong of the so-called scheduling of drugs, this silliness, where certain chemical certain molecules are deemed evil is finally being reversed today after declaring drug abuse quote, public enemy number one Nixon increased federal funding for drug control agencies and created the special action office for drug abuse and prevention his neck salvo was the formation of the DA drug enforcement agency formed in. Nineteen Seventy-three under the leadership of John Bartell, the DA consolidated many the agencies that had up until that point been dealing with drug enforcement nineteen seventy four saw the founding of Neider the national student drug abuse of fine research institution that exist. Does amazing work to this day tracing? It's beginning to a small research unit on the US public health service hospital, formerly their narcotics hospital in Lexington Kentucky. It was established by congress as the federal focal point for research into increase the knowledge about drug abuse, promote effective strategies to deal with the problem and develop and manage a nationwide network of drug abuse prevention and training programs initially focused on heroin and its connection to crime night. A sport a great deal of research, but eventually make groundbreaking discoveries at how the brain worked particularly in the setting of addiction. It's first director was a physician named Robert DuPont. You also served as drug chief under president Nixon and president Ford initially deposit proponent of methadone, which he used a treat many addicts nine. Two percent of whom were minority. He did this in the Washington DC area despite his so-called success, large sector. The public disagreed with this approach because it was increasingly being seen as a way to enslave minority populations. Dr Robert DuPont about heroin addicts today are not predominantly African American and they were at that point in Washington DC and all over the country. Very big percentage were and Richard Nixon was the president. And so the charge was that this was a conservative camp to new harm to the young black men who were the predominant pattern of of airland mix. It was a very intense issue there. Now, you I want you to remember that the mayor of the city was Walter Washington who was black and a grew up in Washington DC and headed nieces rookie could possibly have in the local community and was loved by everybody in the city when whenever I would beaten up over the race issue. I would go to him. He was really. Assuring me about the black community and pointed out, but most of the criticism, I was getting was actually from white people for black people. He intriguing went time. He said to the vitamin C you for a couple of weeks. I think you're either sick or move to another job, but I don't want either of those things happen. Nixon's presidency was associated with methadone expansion, which only increased the public's opinion that the administration was trying to keep African Americans and others from being politically active eventually to Pont would come to the conclusion that these circumstances were untenable as related using methadone because it was also addictive treating one addictive drug with another. It was just quote never going to work. Another example of the medical community failing to recognize the history the repeats doing it, again, notably depart was one of the authors of the white paper and drug abuse in nineteen seventy five. This was written for president Gerald Ford. The document intended to assess the extent of drug abuse in America and make recommendations on how the federal government might reduce it reflecting back on the paper in two thousand depart was embarrassed about the. Unsophisticated analysis container the paper, he takes responsibility for his part and believes that quote failed to understand the nature of addiction. Dr Robert DuPont. The lake Baker was we've forgotten about other drugs of abuse at the time this particularly had to do with Barbara sure h and stimulants and bender entity. And if it was not in treatment for any. So the the the message there of the white paper, which was a good mess was we gotta broaden our focus and understanding the drug problem any drug trip. And that's what happened in ninety three Los Angeles Police Department created dare drug abuse resistance education program, set police officers into schools to educate warrant children about the dangers of drug use despite having been implemented in over seventy five percent of schools two thousand nine studies show that the program is largely ineffective teens that were rolled the program were just as likely to use drugs as those who were not Dr David court, right? The dare program cannot really be judged a success. There were some aspects of it seem to work for time. And example of that with the steady decline in high school marijuana smoking during the nineteen eighties so youthful, marijuana smoking was at an all time high late nineteen stuff, but then it started to come down significantly during the nineteen eighties. And right on till about nineteen Ninety-two on the other hand, if you take a sort of water, look the problem. Yes question, well has drug education generally, discourage people from using drugs answers, clearly now, we've got everything from vaping pain pills. They're still big problem. So I it's it's certainly not been a panacea to that end air has made many judgments their curriculum. And as of two thousand eighteen have added lessons about the current opioid epidemic in nineteen Ninety-three. The DSM three are this is the diagnostic and statistical manual mental disorders, that physicians. Use to make diagnoses provide the standard criteria for classification and distinguishes three levels of drug related. Saviors and functioning they were drug dependence, drug abuse and drug use. He was suggested that these be regarded as concentric circles that would have been flow is people back and forth between the groups that same year, the US National Research Council and committee on substance abuse prevention research declared in summary quote heroin uses so rare as to be barely measurable. Thank you to all of our experts who weighed in this critical period in the history of opium and opiates. I wanna thank our staff at Dr dot com, particularly Michelle POE for pulling this open series together read the entire series and our weekly medical articles of well, all Dr dot com. Sure to join our Email, this you get it automatically in. Please do telephone. CD's are Everett. Right. Everyone's talking about them. And it's topic that I get asked that all the time bottom line on CD, although they are way more claims made about them the clinical evidence right now, it's not all that clear, but many people are using it and reporting great results, and they are very encouraging. So I wanna I to find exactly what I'm talking about. Here. CBD is can have dial an extract from him while you might associate with marijuana CBD does not cause reinforcement. It is not three enforcing component him. But it is was responsible for the calming or relaxing effects that many people experience not the high now about the products. There are a ton of them on the market today forgetting, the vast array of the reported health benefits, it's important to be aware of what your by. I was recently institute to a company called select CBD in Oregon based company than focuses on high quality ingredients in manufacturing standards. Not the hype their CBD based products are available in a wide range of formulations flavors each which is described you. So you can make an informed decision with out all those promises that are probably too good to be true. Like, I said the reported benefits of CBD by individuals using. This are very compelling. I'm excited to see how the develop as the science catches up with his booming industry as usual. The public is head of the science. I can't make explicit claims yet. But boy, the reports are pretty encouraging. So if you're ready to try CBD curves, you at checkout, select CBD, learn more go to Dr drew dot com slash select. That's on my site. Dr dot com slash S, E L E C T. And for a limited time, you can save twenty five percent of checkout with the code Dr drew DR D R W again, the dot com slash select. And then the code DR, dairy w.

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SYSK Selects: Can you Treat Mental Illness with Psychedelics?

Stuff You Should Know

43:54 min | 1 year ago

SYSK Selects: Can you Treat Mental Illness with Psychedelics?

"The future of phone services here in it's called visible for forty bucks a month all in you get unlimited data messages and minutes. I'm Verizon's four G. Lt Network visible doesn't do annual contracts and unlimited data means unlimited. They also don't have physical phone stores so you don't have to deal with annoying sales people. Are you ready to learn remorse. which to visible than head divisible dot com slash stuff to get twenty dollars off your first month of service that's visible dot com slash stuff? Hey there everyone. That's me me Josh. And for this week's S. Y. K.. Selects a chosen. Can we treat mental. Illness with psychedelics. Spoiler alert they answer is a big big. Yes yes this is one of those pieces of history where things just Kinda fell out a place for something important and we also have the rare luxury of seeing where it went wrong and exactly who was responsible so enjoy this really interesting episode. Steffi should now welcome to step you should know a production of iheartradio's how stuff works. WHOA and welcome to the PODCAST? I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles Cheech Bryant teach and I wanted to start this one out like a twelve twelve year old. So that's what I'm going with a twelve year old on acid. Maybe maybe which has happened before in France actually really thanks to our oh friends. CIA those kids they just a whole town how to see what would happen and one kid came out his grandmother and tried to strangle her really i. I can't remember the name of the town. I can funny but No people were like shown up at the hospital right there. A lot of it was funny. Yes Internet like you know all these nineteen fifties French easer right losing their stuff for no apparent reason right but you know the the suicides that resulted yet not once not very funny before we get started I think we should do like an official. Co A for this one. I think there's a very good idea because what Josh and are about to talk about our illegal drugs but We just find it fascinating that they used to be used for certain things and they're starting to be used again in certain scientific research research labs for these things it is extremely fascinating. which is what we're talking about right exactly? I guess this could be a follow up to our K.. Ultra cast it's a follow up and and it's an epilogue and a prologue. Yes yeah very nice because we kinda came into the the. CIA LSD MK. Ultra podcast Catholic. Right in the Middle Yeah of the history of LSD toward the beginning but One of the things after nineteen forty the three one Albert Hoffman Right. Yes the chemists who created LSD LSD twenty-five try. Yeah it was his twenty fifth attempt. Yeah and tried it on himself intravenously as I understand it injected it. We always says I took by mistake. Yeah because it was the blood thinner and and then he took it for real. Yeah on I bike. Ride home is like gotta do some more than a Rita's quote please. I became aware of the wonder of creation the bag nifikorov sense of nature. Yes the create doctor Hoffman and he was just some Swiss guy and chemists He was at the first person to come up with a synthetic Eddie collusion gym about nineteen fourteen. A German chemist. Who worked for Merck? The pharmaceutical company came up with MD.. Ama better known as ecstasy ecstasy that far back And here's a tip for you chuckers Anytime according to the Associated Press you write about a designer drug unused by its designer name capitalize it so ecstasy is always capitalized. The Word Ecstasy. When you're talking about the the drug guess at Wilshire and not just the euphoric feeling you get from life? That's different yes. This lower case okay but it should be all caps. Yes you're so it was nineteen nineteen fourteen the MD MA was created. It's crazy and it was I guess it served as a it's not a catalyst because I think it's changed but it was to to be used in the synthesis of other chemicals right and it Kinda sat on the shelves for a little while until somebody along the way and then what happens and if I take this stuff yeah and they did and the CIA again looked at it. Wanted to see what it could do past it up mm-hmm and a guy by the name of Alexander. Shokhin right yes. He's Dow chemist and in Nineteen Seventy eight at the age age of seventy four. He published a study on the euphoric effects of Emmett was the first time anyone had ever published a study. What you're nineteen seventy-eight? Wow but he was seventy four and he. I noticed the Because he liked to take it and go to cocktail parties. Of course he did. Yeah so he's like. Hey man this stuff is the bomb. And here's my study on it here that my findings and lets everybody start taking this. So he starts giving it to his friends Including some psychiatrists. Did he give Pasa fires not yet. Okay that's coming though. This is very very close. Nineteen seventy pests. Fires came about one thousand nine hundred ninety eight okay So schilgen gives them to a friend. WHO's a psychiatrist right psychiatrists some of the more avant garde psychiatrists MM start giving it to their patients and it gets called atom for a little while while this is going on. It's being used by established psychiatrists a mysterious finance here in Dallas Texas finds out about this stuff starts taking hires an underground chemist and has it made himself and then start selling it at clubs all over Dallas and so this this illicit use of the substance simultaneous to its emergence on the club scene in about the mid eighties led to the outlaw of MDA. We'll get into it more. But the point is to this very long and rambling interim both of these drugs and others were legal at one time. Yes sure were put to good. Use Spin official use and then outlawed possibly unfairly and now we're starting to see them come back into use. Hallucinogens loosened Jen's being used to treat mental illness and mental harm in legitimate circles. Very legitimate quick question was that Dallas person was that cowboys owner Jerry Jones. I don't know I don't think anybody knows still got. Its start. Maybe to begin with so Josh you mentioned the CIA. Do want to point out. It wasn't just the Americans The Canadian government and British's British's works Britain's M I six Also experimented with LSD and between nineteen fifty and sixty five forty thousand people. All over the world had been treated with LSD. Yeah in in treatments yeah Carey grant yet. Can we go back to Hollywood in the nineteen Nineteen fifties so a couple of guys set up shop. Arthur Chandler was the other guy's name. Oh Hartmann Hartmann Mortimer Hartman. Who was the radiologist to Sid Hartman instead? You know I'm GonNa get psychiatry. Yeah these guys set up a shop called the Psychiatric Institute of Beverly Hills Yup Right in the middle of Beverly Hills and this is back in the day when things were those clean living going on on aside from that rampant alcoholism and cigarettes being smoked. daltry probably marijuana use going on here there. But that was among the hop op-eds. Yeah exactly so. He sets up a couple of rooms with a couch in starts booking patients At a rate of like six or eight hours a session. Yeah depending on what was going on with the person and five days a week there were booked solid hundred bucks a pop hundred which is a lot of money back then sure and I guess set included the drugs the drugs and the time that you were there right so they would sit with you. They'll give you some blinders To block out distractions and then you would go into to sort of like the more meditative sort of acid trip. Essentially you were trip trip in part because you were on pharmaceutical grade. LSD produced by the Sandos Company. Yeah we're talking about Alex Huxley novelist and actually he died trip in. Did you know that. Oh really yeah he was. He had Throat Cancer I think and The last thing he ever wrote a note to his wife requesting such and such milligrams the grams of LSD your microwave LSD injected intramuscular intramuscularly. Really and that was about six hours before he died so he died. I tripping and dead record. That was his last request before the grateful dead command chocking Screenwriter screenwriter Charles Bracket Took it Director Sidney Lumet Lemaire lament I think I always think I'm wrong. He took it a few times. uh-huh went through sessions called at wonderful. He re experience his own birth Apparently few people did. I'd never heard of that. I haven't either and Clare are both loose was a playwright married to time. Magazine publisher Henry Loose. She was also an ambassador and possibly an agent for the US government and they'd growth took acid so much that Henry loose in Time magazine said we need to write about this. This is awesome. Yeah there's a lot of good press that Time magazine gave LSD The in the fifties As a basically a cure all and again cary grant got into big time. Apparently he had like at least least a hundred trips. I believe he was yeah. Let's talk about him for a second because he was one of these guys that carefully constructed his persona uh-huh he worked very hard. Apparently he was the the the line he always gave was a lot of. PEOPLE WANNA be cary grant and I'm one of them. Yeah indicating that this Suave Mr Cool Persona was completely fabricating created by himself so he could get the fame and everything but deep down he suffered as a human until he started taking acid right and then he had Well he had some pretty interesting having revelations one of which I read one of somebody thought to write down the stuff that he some of the insights he had Some were Kinda deep Others were like if I have to look at a man. He should be required to Comb his hair and brush his teeth and where clean shirt earth that was an acid revelation. Yes it was interesting so kind of ran the gamut but yeah he He became a real dave. Oh Tae of LSD ex wife you too. Yeah Betsy And While she got him into right I think so. Who wrote the? We're we're part of this. Were basing this part on Vanity Fair article. Yeah Oh it's called carry in the sky with diamonds. Yeah but he was a huge advocate for LSD. He wasn't the only one and But he lived to you. See it outlawed and public sentiment turned against it right yes it's like MDA Tila side magic mushrooms and part of the world. Really one of the you could say that Timothy leary. Almost singlehandedly led to the tremendous suffering suffering of a lot of people who might otherwise have been helped by LSD Iran with his his naive bravado of you know the establishment just needs to get over at hangups and we should take acid. Yeah whether or not you agree that that's a good idea. It's a stupid thing to say. Sure leary was originally a Harvard psychiatrist right. Yes and he started taking. I think mushrooms and then he eventually started taking LSD and was fired from Harvard because he turned into a hippie and That was pretty much. The beginning of the end of St. Yeah they may have continued to use LSD as treatment for mental patients mental illness and depression. If not for Timothy leary right. Who was trying to spread the word about acid? That's right Back to cary grant real quick. He was so into Josh. He had a couple of stories written about him in Nineteen fifty nine in look magazine. Yeah the curious story behind the new cary grant gave a glowing flowing account of LSD. And then this is the best the following year the good housekeeping magazine it got the good housekeeping seal of approval in the nineteen sixty sixty issue and they called it the secret of grant. Second Youth I WanNa get a copy of that magazine. Yeah how awesome would that be. Yeah and that's kind of like the theme of this. PODCAST is so weird that these things were considered incredibly wonderful am benign And now they're just viewed it is just so they're evil in their outlawed in play because they were made illegal right prohibited right And again there's kind of a movement meant toward saying. Hey you know maybe Timothy leary did give this a bad name may be that that Underground Chemistry in Dallas Really kind of put a terrible spread on this and we should look at these again right. She cannot tell more story. Yes from Hollywood at the nineteen sixties. Yes Esther Williams famous diva actress from the MGM. Studio for an if cary grant's called Carey grant up after these articles and said hey can you introduce me to your Dr Dr Hartman. He did so at the time she was aging. Just had gone through a divorce right Her husband left her with huge debt with the IRS. And she he was still struggling with the death of her sixteen year. Old Brother she goes in the office. She takes acid. Does her session goes home to her parents. Still on on acid Has Dinner with them and then goes into the Bathroom Mirror says good night to her. Parents looks in the mirror and I'm going to read this quote. I was startled by a split image. One half of my face the right half was me. The other half was the face of a sixteen year. Old Boy The left side of my upper body was is flat muscular. I reached up with my boys hand to touch my right breast and felt my penis stirring it was a hermaphroditic phantasm awesome and I understood perfectly in that moment when my brother died I took him into my life so completely he became part of me. That's pretty huge thing that understand in a pretty jarring waited come to terms with that right. Yeah but that's what they're finding out now though is that these people are having these breakthroughs in the throes throes of their final days of. Let's say cancer. And they have these epiphanies. It actually makes a better toothbrush. Industrial Strength Shrink power claims of miraculous trendy ingredients. If you ask your dentist they'll tell you about the brush and more about how you use it and we're talking about equip which is what I used to brush my teeth because I love it. They have sensitive vibrations. They have a built in timer which I really need because it really guides that gentle brushing for what Dennis Dennis recommend which is two minutes with thirty second pulses ensuring an even clean quip automatically delivers brush heads to you every three months to for clean new bristles right on schedule and they're sleek intuitive design is simple to use and comes to the travel kept to that doubles as a mere mount. Listen to this people it starts at just twenty five dollars. You'll get your I refill for free at get quip dot com slash stuff to very simple way to support our show and start brushing better but you have to go to get quip tip. Q. U. I. P. Dot Com slash stuff to get your first refill for free head on over right now to get quip dot com slash stuff staged inch so LSD is outlawed. We're following time. Line here yes outlawed in. I think sixty five something like that At the very at the latest one thousand nine hundred ninety yeah they shut down the shop in Beverly Hills. Yeah and Sandoz stopped making it and they do it got it was outlawed in pushed underground yeah. MDM Ama made it until Nineteen eighty-five and MD.. Ama Story is linked very closely to a guy named Dr George Riccardi Who is Johns Hopkins researcher? This floored me so in one thousand nine hundred five about the time the Da is reeling from being totally unaware by the crack epidemic. Yeah basically a lot of people think looking for a whipping post sure They they they start considering outlawing. MDM At that moment. This guy. Dr George required a Publishes a study that he says. Is this drug deplete your Serotonin levels permanently. Yeah causing brain damage right. It can kill you. Yeah well that didn't that was later. Okay so this guy who is unknown at the time publishes the study starts to get National Institute of Drug Abuse Funding so busy. This is his job. He starts a career Creating scientific evidence in favour banning drugs leads to the outlaw of of MD.. Ama Right yes. That wasn't quite enough. They they scheduled it The the feds went after and they may even harder in two two thousand two. They came up with this thing called the rave act out. That's okay it's Oh what is raised. Stand for reducing Americans vulnerability to ecstasy to see. I wonder how long they sat around looking at the word rave saying we gotta make it fit. Yeah Yeah so The the Rave Act basically said if you are a club owner and somebody gets caught taking ecstasy or has ecstasy at your club. We're GONNA shut down your club right. It was a a huge huge law and it was bolstered by another Another study by Dr George required a That found that he tested on ten. Ten monkeys yeah this is the big one he injected them with. MGM A A bunch of went psychotic. Yeah some of them. showed early signs of Parkinson's all of a sudden Brian in two of them died almost immediately after being injected. Yeah so people started asking questions about this like what are you talking about. People who've been taking this drug forever and this has never happened right so they started kind of going after record a and They found out that he had actually injected check them with methamphetamine. The first thing that tipped him off owes he injected him because people were like well. You don't inject ecstasy. So that's kind of a weird way to do it right and they found out it was methamphetamines which he blamed on a mislabeling of a drug shipment which they trace back and now the label right here. Yeah the drug providers there's like don't blame US foulkes pretty clear so this is by this time the rave act is already passed her in the Ray. That didn't get past but something that included that right was passed by that time. The study that record a produced was was published in science the journal Science. That's eyebrows you get as far scientific journals right And finally he gets beaten up enough that he he prints a full retraction day came clean. The science runs this retraction saying the hopes the whole study. Then I produced right. Just forget it ever existed at. That doesn't happen much no it doesn't. That's very unusual sir. Required a key. I get the impression it's kind of this Well just kind of seems like the scientific community views him largely as a chill out of the government so so There's a couple of articles that he shows up in on a reason in reason magazine for checking out and you know the other interesting thing about that whole story about about the big fake study he did with methamphetamines as ecstasy is it the Parkinson's foundation. The People Parkinson's researchers said I. I don't think that that's true. That doesn't make much sense to us. Either they would show signs of Parkinson's right so they looked into it. People went about reproducing. Study Yeah and The the people who run the Parkinson's foundation actually issued a statement saying EXC- does not do this. Yeah so they. They basically came came out in favor of ecstasy. It's kind of neat to watch from the outside because there's this guy who's Again kind of viewed as a she'll the government who's beating up on this drug that a lot of people who are also in the scientific community fill is being unfairly outlawed churn so there's kind of beating up on him in retaliation. It's kind of neat to see heads beat up on another inert fights and the idea went so far that the NFL PA just kind of quietly lightly pulled their fact sheet on ecstasy like Let's just take this down off the website after the retraction. Yeah we'll rewrite it. I'm sure it's back up now. Sure as something else. Yeah but it doesn't include immediate death and Parkinson's disease I would imagine that's right so timothy leary dies. He gets shot into space. He's out of the picture entirely early. Everybody gets sick. A hippies generally Georgia as the basically the guy who single handedly getting ecstasy outlawed laud. His work comes into great great question. Yeah and people start going back and looking at 'em the again and they start looking at LSD again. And that's where are we find ourselves right now. Yeah slowly but surely people are starting to run studies on whether or not you can use these hallucinogens to treat mental elmer's in the results are pretty astounding actually yet and you know where they're leading the charge in Switzerland in Los Angeles. Yeah all these years later. Same Place yes hippie freaks. Yeah so yeah Josh. They are I think in Switzerland In solothurn Switzerland they have been experimenting with LSD Suicide which you might know as magic mushrooms. Yes Ketamine you might know Special K. Hey kind of surprised me that that was in there. Yeah I hadn't heard much about that one either. And they're getting these These studies published in nature reviews neuroscience another leading industry peer reviewed publications. Yeah it's not all under the table backroom experiments. Oh No these are very heavily heavily Overseen you have to be a very legitimate researcher to get government approval they're not funded thus still there. They say they're still having a hard time time with funding And they're just sort of looking to get some restrictions loosened. They're not saying. Make all this stuff legal right. They're not battling a legalization on legalization. Efron not at all. No but what. They're the reason why so many people are kind of starting to put their reputations on the line. is because the the results that they're seeing so we have antidepressants right. Yeah They take weeks to kick in sure. They have all sorts of side effects. You're and what they're what we're seeing in in these studies now are that the things like ketamine Md Ama LSD are having like a huge impact right out of the gate right. There's one and study That came out in July. I believe And it found it was a study of twelve people who were diagnosed with PTSD post traumatic traumatic stress disorder. Yeah that's one of the big ones. Yeah that's huge. They're looking at the That's where you as. Well it's what we used to call. Shell shock you go through traumatic experience parents and you relive it over and over again In its its debilitating They found that of the twelve people in the study. Ten Hannah them after going through the study after taking 'em Demi no longer met the criteria to be diagnosed with PTSD afterward. Ten of the twelve off. Yeah and for my understanding and most of these studies is it's not like you have to stay on ecstasy. Your whole life like a lot of people have these epiphanies and they quit taking it and they had changed their outlook in that right yet. That's the impression I'm getting to Ketamine apparently is good for depression in the same way Just a very tiny dose. You can get you over severe clinical depression or that. The results the early results. We should say In everything from quitting smoking to suicidal thoughts cluster headaches yeah MARBURG studying this. Those are migraines for men right What they call Mike Ms? It migrants the things. I know they're so debilitating that you consider suicide or you know not. Everyone does obviously. But it's just this awful pain you can't leave your house you get to sit in a dark room uh-huh and so it's helping their in What I thought was interesting Johns Hopkins? You might have heard of them. Sure we'll reputable institutions are required as from Was it uh-huh they Did an experiment where they gave Silla Simon to emotionally stable individuals. Like this wasn't even people that are mentally ill. People that had never taking hallucinogens. Before which is interesting that you would be. I think they had a sixty four year old. That signed up for this. Yeah it's crazy and they said Ages twenty four to sixty four and they said the experiment a year later they said the experience is one of the most meaningful spiritual experiences their entire lives and that those were mentally only stable folks. Sure and this is a year on right. It's still had an impact on them They're also finding that OCD and basically a mood disorders are the primary target of hallucinogenic treatment. Right psychedelics for treatment and the reason being when we think is because they target Serotonin in the brain. This is another reason why they're not addictive. They don't they don't employ the reward circuit in the brain right. which is how we become addicted to things right? Flooded with dopamine member it just affects the mood circuits serotonin. And we don't really have a very good grasp on Serotonin tone and exactly how that works but we do know that There's correlations between High levels of Serotonin right or low. Oh levels of Serotonin and depression right right and we know that Using antidepressants which block the reuptake of Serotonin. reduces symptoms of clinical depression and people. So we know that Serotonin in there somewhere. Yes we know that the more so tony had the better generally or looser tonens bad right right and then we also know that hallucinogens target. The somehow that's pretty much where the research stands right now. Yeah it makes you wonder where where would we be if LSD 'EM hadn't been in the wilderness for the last few decades. Well yeah they may have a pill like a low dose pill because a lot of these studies just so you now now back in cary grant state. I mean it was full full on acid trips but a lot of these like the suicide pills. They'll give you a very low dose so I I don't I get the feeling that it's not like this huge Mushroom trip that a lot of these patients are going through because it said eighty percent of the people recognize when they did not have the placebo So if it was a one hundred percent then it was probably a pretty low dose. Yes would be my guess Would would you if if everything was legalized and MDA came to be prescribed for four Just happiness right. Would you take it. Would you take happy pill that was legal and didn't have side effects not to say India may doesn't sl to fix fix there is a Like basically the three days after a depression that follows. When you're Sir Tonen levels are repeating themselves? I don't think think I would because there are quote unquote happy pills now And I'm I mean it's not like I'm against antidepressants. Or things like that. Because people definitely benefit from those who need them uh-huh but I I just I don't need that kind of thing so I would not I would not sir. You are not alone chuck. There is a survey conducted for where this BBC series on Britain of British people. That found that seventy nine percent of them said that they would not take a happy pill right it was legal and had no side effects. It's interesting yeah because it kind of I think that for a large segment of the population. There's just ah the idea of synthesizing happiness is untoward. Yeah you know. Yeah it's it's a little weird. I mean that's not to say a square. I don't like to get down Another aspect Josh. I mean we're we're talking right now about. Literally the effect it has on your brain and your Serotonin in levels in your moods right. They've also found that Patients Cancer Patients in particular who consume hallucinogens or people people with just Traumatic events from earlier in their life. They have the ability to relive some of these memories events from their pass right they can unlock buried traumatic. Eric episodes deal with them. Psychologically put them to rest and come out the other side with a new understanding free from these demons right right Remember in the hypnosis episode. Where we're talking about How the weights viewed now is that you you are it? You're accessing the subconscious more easily popping. Open a control panel. That's what this is this what they're seeing with. Md Ama may apparently You are able to access things From a very empathetic way. I think the the term I've heard for it is called A psychotherapeutic catalyst yeah. I think he's six starts right things and I think one researcher called it it's psychotherapy echo. Therapy sped up here. It's called the yeah it's like psychotherapy on acid they. Yeah Hey we want to talk to you about the future. Oh phone service because it is here and it's called visible yet for forty bucks a month all in you get unlimited limited data messages and minutes verizon's four G. Lt Network and visible doesn't do annual contracts. They also don't do shady hidden fees or foot long phone phone bills either when they say forty bucks a month they mean forty bucks a month yeah and when they say unlimited data that means unlimited data. They also don't have physical phone stores stat that means no waiting in lines or dealing with annoying sales people with visible. You can sign up by a new phone or bring your own device get helped. It's a tap away via chat chat text or tweet and get better phone service all from their APP or website without ever leaving your couch. Yep So are you ready to learn more switch divisible than head divisible dot com slash stuff and get twenty dollars off your first month of service and exclusive special offer just for stuff you should know listeners. That's visible dot com slash stuff the LSD specifically hasn't been the greatest friend to everybody. Who's ever taken it? Yeah sure and what's funny in in this Article uh-huh it's on the site. Can we treat mental illness with hallucinogens. Tom Sheaf your body has to go to the sixties psychedelic rock scene examples of people who've had a bad bedtime on acid I know And apparently what what the conventional wisdom is is if you are predisposed to mental illness LSD. Ken exacerbate that. Yeah if you have a bad trip you're going to have a really really bad trip because this year already predisposed mental illness. Yeah he's Brian Wilson and syd Barrett as the two examples. Yeah and those are stellar examples. They really I gotta say. But they're also counterintuitive due to what we're seeing with like PTSD. You are already suffering from a mental illness. So here's some. MD Emmy right probably. LSD would be horrible to give to PTSD survivor. Yeah Yeah right I would say so And what else chuck can we talk about. Pamela Sokota sure. Yeah it's very interesting story This was a woman Age fifty seven at the time of this article who was in the final stages of Colon cancer. She'd outlive prognosis. She was anxious and depressed. She was worried about her family. Her husband and what they were going to do without her it was. It's not a good life. She was living here at the end and she was prescribed anti-depressants. Of course didn't work didn't do a thing for her so she volunteered for an experiment airmont. Ucla in two thousand and five and started taking Silla. Simon the magic mushroom pill in pill form. Yeah she Had A lot of breakthroughs throughs. they brought her husband in the end of one of the sessions. And he said there's my pammy she was just beaming with light and I haven't seen her that joyous and so along she was totally alive and happy and she continued to take it until she didn't need it anymore. She had these breakthroughs and then all the sudden her husband and Pamela we're going to concerts. They went hiking at the Grand Canyon. They went on vacations. They did all these things that she hadn't been doing In a long time because because of these epiphanies she had under the influence of Silla Sivan And sadly she died. We'll see a cancer. Yeah she died yeah that's what she died from in two thousand in six and her husband said she died in his arms but her husband was very appreciative and they actually did a benefit about a week before she died for the institute that was doing this work at Ucla So it's pretty interesting. Yeah the definitely one of the applications that they're finding is end of life care or Using m the M A or LLC sil assignment. Sure we'RE SPECIAL K. Apparently what about this. I Gain uh-huh they're finding that AIBA gain works really. Well I began is a It's from a hallucinatory route plant in Africa. I believe And they're finding meaning that you go on a thirty six hour trip. That's a long time his walk time but they're finding that it's really effective in breaking Addiction in like serious addictions to heroin cocaine. So being on this stuff for thirty six hours creates a break in the addiction cycle itself. Sure but what they're finding. That's most notable about it is there's a lack of withdrawal symptoms that you see in every other type of addiction removal yeah especially with heroin like heroin. You're supposed to have physical withdrawal since withdrawal symptoms and people who are taking I will gain are not experiencing insist that like they would if they tried to kick the habit without. It's pretty remarkable. Yeah it is very remarkable. It's very interesting. We should probably say I don't know if we have yet that this podcast is in no way an endorsement of going out and buying yourself some street drugs and you know seeing what happens. It's it's a study of what we find it'd be very fascinating The fact that this has been a resurgence in this and these you know qualified doctors. Ucla Johns Hopkins. After saying we should look the stuff. Yeah and they definitely are and they're getting some very interesting result. What about the AA guy? We should mention that really quickly. That was pretty funny. Oh yeah a Bill Wilson. Yeah one of the CO founders of A yeah he apparently took LSD in the fifties was it. Yeah and this was after he was long after he was sober from. Alcohol can around in the thirties. I think yeah So he he takes LSD in the fifties and it's like this is really helpful so I think everybody who comes into AA take And they were like should probably not do that so they talked him out of it. The reason why he found it helpful. When is that hallucinogens? Part of a twelve step program is to really reflect on past wrongdoings undoing ze. Yeah and then elucidate them right to another human being and apparently LSD Ama These other drugs help they serve as a catalyst for that process so tap into that. That's why Bill Wilson thought the this really helpful because again it's like a therapy therapies sped up fascinating very fascinating. I will say this though I'm GonNa go out on a limb and say even though we're not saying oh you should go out and do these things. I will say that some chemically created in a lab pill called an antidepressant Isn't I mean what's the difference the differences I think in my opinion from what I've seen once marketed in legal and the other is illegal. Yeah it's as simple as that one is made by Merck in one is not bathed by Merck but emerge used to make this right sandwiches. Ironic public sentiment counts for everything. Yeah you know. It's the same reason the alcohol Kahal you can go into a bar and get completely wasted out of your mind and get in the car but you can't walk into a bar and smoke a joint or shoot heroin or shoot heroin ruin and we're not lobbying for anything. It's just interesting that the things that society has deemed acceptable Alcoholism is just fine lost. Not just fine but it's it's legal and you can do it right even kills all these people in this is not acceptable. It's just it's funny how we've evolved to think some things are evil and some things are just great yeah. I wonder what the future holds Josh. I wonder myself we'll find out. Yes we will. We lived long. That is about it for this one. You should probably I check out Can we treat mental illness with hallucinogens. On the site be sure to check out. Carrie in the sky with diamonds Vanity Fair Article Type in Georgia Are Icu a RT An indoor reasons website. It'll bring up some cool stuff. There's a killer Ciller Time magazine article from I think two thousand or two thousand one On ecstasy on MD.. May it was. That's really it's called the Happiness in a pill Yes it's time now for listener mail right yes. I had a listener mail Josh from Ria and this was about octopus occupy. We were corrected. The octopus not right but she says gee the highest so right. Well we had all these people in actually the Latin thing Hi Guys Your podcast. On an octopus I made my day to day. Thank you I work as an Aquarius at a San Francisco Aquarium and one of my favorite responsibilities is is our cephalopod gallery. I Yeah I get to do enrichment with giant Pacific octopodes Make sure all of our eight legged friends stay out of trouble. And I'm currently teaching a two spot octopus. How to the open jar to get his favorite food which is live crabs? Right there with Ya. Constructive plus It was great to hear someone besides myself get a little well to excited about these critters and you know we got great feedback on this people. Love the octopus. Because you're so freaky The story about Lucretia Mac evil especially early crack me up I work with the GPO. That's the giant Pacific Octopus. That might give her a run for our money for the past few weeks. I've been walking around with what my colleagues call octopus. Octopus kisses up the link of my arms. But I'm afraid my husband is getting a little suspicious about the number of hickeys have acquiring so that's from the little suckers right the little suckers clearly These were given to me while I tried to remove the individual from blocking the flow to his tank and stop his flooding of the entire aquarium. Graham it's never boring day with cephalopods in your life guys. Thanks for all the great podcast. If you're ever in San Francisco one of my favorite places Josh. Yeah let me know and I'll see if I can't work Out some behind the scenes cephalopod goodness nice and that is from Ria. And she says and don't worry by the way I have trouble pronouncing Hetero catalysts huddle lists as well and have taken to calling in the sperm Tentacle Sperm Tentacle. Works Sperm. ICAL is what she says uh-huh she says it's

LSD Josh Clark Timothy leary MD Ama CIA Johns Hopkins researcher Hartmann Hartmann Mortimer Har official Dallas Merck Verizon US Beverly Hills MGM Parkinson Hollywood Wilshire
Deadly Dalliance" - Brittany Holberg

Female Criminals

46:06 min | 1 year ago

Deadly Dalliance" - Brittany Holberg

"Due to the graphic nature of this woman's crimes listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of child abuse drug use sexual assault and murder that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen in January of two thousand seven the Adult magazine Maxim published an article called Babes behaving badly the peace profiled. Oh numerous incarcerated women with salacious descriptions of their crimes thirty four year old Britney Hallberg never imagined she'd become famous enough to be featured in a magazine even one as risque as maximum but she knew that every press mention she could get no matter what the context had the potential to save her life for nine years Brittany had been locked in a struggle against the Texas criminal justice system as she lost appeal after appeal. She knew that her only shot at changing her fate lay in the shifting public perception of the death penalty. Now Britney saw her salvation in the glossy pages of the Adult Adult magazine she needed all the support she could get to have any chance at overturning her death sentence picture a murderer a- gangster a thief. Did you picture a woman. We didn't think so society associates men with dangerous crimes but what happens happens when the perpetrator is female every Wednesday we examine the psychology motivations and atrocities of female criminals hi I'm Sammy Ni- and I'm Vanessa Richardson and you're listening to female criminals apar- our cast original this is our first and only episode on the life and crimes of Brittany Hallberg who in Nineteen ninety-six was accused of murdering eighty year old A._B.. Tower senior in spite of Britney's insistence that she killed towering self-defense. She was sentenced to death today. Thanks in part to her. Ongoing Appeals Britney is a notable figure within the anti-death-penalty movement at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network and if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening it really does help we also now have merchandise had depar- cast dot com slash merch for more information Britney Hallberg had a troubled childhood good raised by an addict mother. She was a frequent victim of violence and repeated sexual assault in her youth in nineteen eighty nine at the age of Sixteen Brittany ran away from home to elope with her boyfriend seventeen seventeen year old ward Holmberg but the marriage fell apart and by nineteen ninety-three she returned to Texas where she'd grownup. After a knee injury Brittany became addicted to painkillers and later to cocaine cocaine soon she began supporting her drug habit through sex work on November thirteenth nineteen ninety. Six Britney entered the home of eighty year old A._B.. towery a brutal attack ensued sued Brittany claimed that she acted in self defense after her arrest Britney was found guilty of murder and sentenced to execution by lethal injection since then she's filed and lost numerous Chris Appeals from death row in Texas. Brittany's case became a flash point in the anti-death penalty movement in this episode will break down the psychological factors that contributed to Britney substance abuse and financial problems TMZ. We'll also discuss towers death and Brittany's subsequent arrest trial and numerous appeals finally will unpacked some of the politics of the death penalty in the U._S. and how Britney story impacts. It's the prison reform movement Britney Marlow was born on January first nineteen seventy-three in Amarillo Texas. Her single mother was as Brittany described it a hippie drugstore her with ongoing addiction issues. Her father was also a heroin addict. He spent most of Britney's childhood in prison so she barely knew him. Britney's life with her mother was unstable while Brittany was still a young girl her her mother became involved with another heavy drug user named John Schwartz the couple married and subsequently divorced four times the necessary going to take over in the psychology from here. Please note Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist your psychiatrist but she has done a lot of research for this show. Thanks Sammy a team of researchers from Uppsala. University's Department of Women and children's health found that children with an active father figure are better behaved than those without a male parent young girls without fathers tend to develop more psychological problems and are more likely to commit crimes as adults even when Britney's mother and stepfather were together and happy they frequently drank and smoked marijuana around Brittany Britney was often left home unattended while her mother and stepfather went on Benders together a study with Harvard Medical School found that the children of households with excessive drug or alcohol use our three times more likely to be abused and four times more likely to be neglected this unstable home environment can impede the child's ability to mature into an emotionally healthy adult. Unfortunately Britney defaced abuse from a young age at only five years old she was sexually assaulted accounts vary on whether the perpetrator was her stepfather or an unidentified babysitter. There doesn't seem to be any record of a subsequent police report Ford or investigation trauma continued to play Britney throughout her teenage years one day in nineteen eighty six when Britney was thirteen. A group of men attacked her while she was walking home from school. Brittany tried to fight back but she was outnumbered and the men were much stronger than she was for the second time in her life. Brittany was sexually assaulted after this attack Brittany no longer felt safe at home home. She began spending time at her grandmother's house while she never officially moved out Brittany saw less and less of her own mother and stepfather by the time she was sixteen in nineteen eighty nine Britney decided she'd had enough of her parents unsafe unstable home and ongoing drug use she announced that she was dropping out of high school and moving with her seventeen year old boyfriend Ward Hallberg Brittany and award drove to California together and quickly married after her troubled childhood Britney was now committed to getting things right with ward she was going to maintain a stable drugfree household in which she could raise a family. The stability didn't last long two years after Britney moved out of Amarillo. She found herself pregnant. Her daughter Mackenzie was born on August twenty seventh nineteen ninety-two the timing was terrible able as nineteen year old Britney's marriage was already crumbling dude awards violent outbursts Brittany and ward divorced before McKenzie's first birthday and soon the father daughter relocated to Tulsa Oklahoma Brittany unemployed lacking a high school diploma and now separated from her daughter returned home to Amarillo. She felt like she had nowhere else to go. The University of Arizona's David Ace Bara wrote that divorce can have a severe impact on a person's psychological health and even decrease their physical resiliency after a divorce a person may make poor decisions or find it difficult to overcome challenges. Brittany's challenges had just begun shortly after Britney moved back to Amarillo. She suffered a knee injury. Her doctor prescribed painkillers by the time the prescription ran out twenty year old Brittany had developed a full-fledged addiction. The American Psychological Association noted that addiction is a biological as well as psychological condition genetics account for roughly half of the risk factor for addiction while all social psychological and environmental factors also play a role in a person susceptibility for a woman like Britney with a genetic disposition toward addiction in addition to her childhood. TRAUMAS painkillers were a trap up even worse Britney had lost two families and had no meaningful support system once she was caught up in illicit drug use it was almost impossible for her to get clean again a quick notice we discuss Britney's years years of drug abuse because Brittany was homeless and engaging in illegal sex work. There aren't great records on the dates of many of her experiences. We've done our best to keep this portion of the story. In Chronological Order Brittany teamed up with her aunt and began running scam to obtain more painkillers they take turns going to dentists and faking severe tooth aches then they'd split their prescriptions. Eventually the local dentists caught onto their griffin left and cut them off Brittany needed a new way to feed her addiction and began to self medicate with street drugs particularly cocaine when the withdrawal got too bad mental health nurse Practitioner Timothy J leg road his article what causes addiction that overtime drug users develop a tolerance requiring more frequent and larger doses of the drug usually in addict will intensify their drug use both to offset their higher higher tolerance and to try to delay the onset of withdrawal symptoms. This creates a vicious cycle of continuous drug abuse Britney's methods forgetting drugs intensified along with her addiction in in April of Nineteen ninety-three twenty year old Britney started committing Petty Crimes to fund her addiction. She forged checks and open bad credit cards. She even stole her mother's car and stole a gun from her stepfather. When these crimes still didn't get Britney the money she needed she turned to sex work? Her New Profession was incredibly dangerous on at least one occasion Britney was again sexually assaulted this time. Her attacker beat her so badly that Brittany needed to be hospitalized. After doctors released her Britney returned to her self destructive spiral. She didn't know how to pull herself out at some point in the next X.. Three Years Brittany became homeless. She was caught in a cyclical pattern of incarceration and release sometimes should only be free a few days between arrests during one such stint in jail in the summer of Nineteen Ninety six. She got a shot at sobriety. twenty-three-year-old Britney met a pair of visiting Christian missionaries who invited her to enter Rehab with their encouragement. Brittany enrolled in the Randall County Jail Addiction Rehabilitation Program while they're the missionaries continually reassured Brittany that she was loved supported and valued she wasn't used to such unconditional affection. According according to clinical psychiatrist sees panic a social safety net is a key ingredient in a healthy addiction recovery plan when addicts have access to practical and emotional support their far more likely to successfully manage manage their dependency. The ministry had a strong Evangelical Element Britney spent as much time praying and attending Bible studies as she did addressing the underlying causes of her addiction journalist Lee Wasserman road for the American American psychological association that an effective drug Rehab plan addresses not only the physical factors of addiction but also psychological elements to really address the root causes of drug abuse a Rehab Program should include cognitive behavioral therapy or other evidence based treatment programs unfortunately financial and societal factors mean many programs don't use evidenced based practices and leave their patients more likely to backslide backslide into addiction. According to local reporting Britney exited the Rehab Program completely clean and yet within a month. She resumed her cocaine use the National Institute Institute of Drug Abuse stated that drug addicts recidivism rates or the rate at which a recovered addict goes back to using drugs are comparable to the symptom return rates for untreated diabetes hypertension and asthma. This is one reason the National Institute of Drug Abuse Advocates for Rehab programs to focus on ongoing addiction management rather than a one time cure by mid nineteen ninety six twenty three year old Britney was <music> once again homeless addicted to painkillers and cocaine and engaging in sex work to make ends meet. She believed that her life couldn't get any worse soon. She'd learned how how much farther she could fall before she hit rock bottom. Next Britney kills a man. Many people WANNA make the change to all natural and ECO friendly friendly products but just don't know how the easiest way to do it is to check out grove collaborative. 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It's two minutes. What do you have to lose go to Gabby dot com slash criminals now? That's G.. A. B. Dot com slash criminals now back to the story Brittany Hallberg spent almost turn tire higher life surrounded by drug use from her addicted neglectful parents to her aunt who helped her run prescription pills scams by Nineteen ninety-six twenty-three-year-old Brittany was holy in the throes of Painkiller and cocaine addiction addiction and financed her dependency through sex work in Amarillo Texas. E Navan Reysen bakes paper sex work criminalization is barking up the wrong tree explored the impacts of criminalization on sex workers and other other people whose livelihoods are illegal because sex workers face stigma and arrest. It's difficult for them to graduate to a legal profession most job applications ask. Have you ever been convicted of a crime. During the previous three years Brittany had been arrested on dozens of occasions. Most of her arrests were for charges related to sex work but police also took her in for trespassing giving false information to a police officer and parole violations in addition. She faced a felony substance abuse charge on November Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. Six Britney doubted her life could get any worse but her rock bottom came when she met eighty year old A._B.. towery despite his old age towel relived alone in Amarillo apartment he received regular support from his adult children who frequently visited him and helped him with upkeep in his unit towery loved cars according to his son Russell Tower like to restore model ts and collected old parts he took road trips with his children and was known as a loving generous father other but towery had dark side which included a history of domestic violence once he threatened his son with a knife during an argument in late November of nineteen ninety six Russell plan to buy his eighty year old father a new car when towery heard of his sons plans he insisted that Russell handover the cash instead Russell complied so towery had fourteen hundred dollars in his wallet on on the day he met Britney. We should know that there is a significant disparity between the polices official version of events of November Thirteenth Nineteen ninety-six and Britney's account. We WanNa keep this account as factual as possible civil so we'll begin with the official version of events then delve into Britney side of the story towel relived within walking distance of an Albertson's grocery store at four thirty P._M.. On November thirteenth he walked to the store bought some food and then returned home on his way back to his apartment tower repast twenty-three-year-old Brittany. She was loitering in the courtyard outside his building at this point Britney was coming down from a cocaine binge that had lasted for over a week. She couldn't remember sleeping in the past ten days. She was beginning to feel the effects of withdrawal. According to amend allow to area of American addiction centers the symptoms of cocaine withdrawal or more psychological than physical after the high wears off a cocaine user will struggle to concentrate will feel both exhausted and restless and will lose lose the ability to feel pleasure. She will also experience an almost overwhelming all consuming need for more cocaine Britney asked if she could come inside claiming that she needed to make a phone call towery let Brittany Brittany into his apartment once inside. She demanded that he give her all his money towery refused desperate Britney attacked him trying to wrestle his wallet out of his pants. Maybe Brittany thought that she could it easily overpowered the elderly man or perhaps her withdrawal symptoms were so intense that she wasn't thinking at all but she wasn't prepared for towery to put up a fierce fight for forty five minutes the the pair grappled each scratched bit kicked and punched eager to gain the upper hand. Brittany grew more brutal with each passing minute. The Mayo Clinic explained that people when faced with a threat will often one exhibit the fight or flight response otherwise known as an acute stress response the hypothalamus which triggers fighter flight can't distinguish between a real threat or some other source of stress in this case Brittany was overwhelmed overwhelmed with a massive burst of adrenaline. Even though she began the fight she physiologically responded as though she was the one being attacked at one point towery stumbled from the living room to the kitchen shen this was a deadly mistake Britney chased after him she saw the heavy cookware and sharp knives. They were perfect weapons. Brittany grabbed a frying pan and smashed it down on tower is head towery stumbled but remained standing so Brittany reached for a new weapon and found a hammer. She bashed it against towery skull but towery still didn't fall Britney. Brittany grabbed the nearest sharp implement she could find a grapefruit knife and stabbed him. Finally towery went down he gasped does blood began to gush out of his torso. Now there was no going back. Brittany realized that she had to finish what she'd begun. Towery had to die. She continued to stab towery using a butcher knife. A paring knife and even to forks tower is still conscious but fading fast tried to fight her off he batted aside the knives leaving shallow cuts on Britney's legs and stomach and tried to run away to get help he stumbled toward the front door bleeding leading profusely but Britney pulled him back into the apartment. She wasn't going to let him get away by now. Towery was lightheaded he had taken a lot of blows to the head and was losing a lot of blood. He he staggered back into the living room where the fight had started and collapsed Tori was unconscious but Brittany wasn't done yet she lifted the living room lamp and shoved it down his throat towery choked on the lamp post and died. Finally it was over only now did Britney have the chance to calm down and assess the situation. She surveyed towers apartment apartment. The furniture was toppled the kitchen in disarray. She was covered in blood. One thing was certain she couldn't call. The police. Britney took a shower in towers bathroom. She couldn't wouldn't put her bloody clothes back on so she rated towers closet to find what would fit as she dressed in the dead man's close a strange sense of calm came over her anger management counselor Aaron Carmen noted that it takes aches the body approximately twenty minutes to return to its natural state after a fighter flight response after her shower Britney found herself once again able to think clearly and she turned her thoughts toward award how to get away with murder. She was astonished to find fourteen hundred dollars cash towers wallet a windfall. She didn't even mind that the bills were bloodstained. Brittany took the money then dropped towers wallet back on top of his body. Britney's less step was to check towers medicine cabinet. She didn't find anything she wanted to take. Only afterward. Did Britney leave towers apartment. It had been over for an hour since she I arrived. It didn't take long Brittany to waive down a car. That was friendly to hitchhikers. She tipped the couple inside two hundred dollars for a ride to a familiar crack house. The drivers seems startled to find blood on his bills but accepted them anyway. Once Brittany arrived at the house she did what almost any drug addict would do if they had cashed burn and nowhere to go she bought hundreds of dollars worth of cocaine then she spent the night getting high in a hotel room and trying to forget about the events of the day we don't know when police arrived on the scene or why they were called to investigate towers apartment but when they entered what they found shocked them towery had been brutally beaten and stabbed fifty eight times with various kitchen implements his emptied wallet lay open on his body. Prescription pills were strewn throughout his apartment. The evidence clearly indicated that tower is death was a robbery gone wrong when witnesses testified that towery was last seen entering his apartment with Britney Hallberg she she became suspect number. One Brittany new was only a matter of time before the police linked her two towers death. So after she came down from her binge she fled Texas to the relative safety of Tennessee see she knew that if she were arrested her chances at a not guilty verdict were slim juries had little sympathy for sex workers or drug addicts but even though she knew the risks the twenty-three-year-old continued you to abuse cocaine and sell sex in Tennessee she was too caught up in the cycle to break out after three months with no new leads on Britney's whereabouts an episode of America's most wanted profiled her in the nineties. America's most wanted was a massively popular show that broadcast information about at large criminals and encouraged viewers to call in tips according to deadline America's America's most wanted was the longest running program on Fox and led to one thousand one hundred fifty one fugitive captures during its twenty-three season run Britney segment aired three times and her tip line received over three hundred calls. Soon investigators knew they could find Britney in Tennessee on February Seventeenth Nineteen Ninety seven twenty four year old Brittany emerged from a McDonald's kids in Memphis Tennessee to find police waiting for her. She didn't resist after her arrest. Britney had the opportunity to place a phone call to her mother. She did so and tearfully admitted over the align that she'd killed a man. Brittany didn't realize that the police were listening in or that they'd construe this conversation as a murder confession. During questioning Britney related her own account of how she killed towery her story differed wildly from the polices version of events soon her arresting officer's would have to decide if Britney Hallberg was a murderer or a victim coming up next Brittany gives her statement Vanessa and I have some exciting news for you. Starting now you can listen to female criminals episodes that are older than six months completely ad free exclusively on on stitcher premium. We're always looking for ways to improve the listener experience. We've found an amazing partner in stitcher to bring you episodes ad free six months after their released again this will only affect episodes older than six months. Nothing else will change change will still be releasing new female criminals episodes. Wherever you listen to podcasts for a free month trial go to stitcher premium dot com slash podcast and use Promo Code podcast? That's stitcher premium dot COM com slash podcast and use Promo Code podcast. You've heard of haunted houses haunted cemeteries and haunted islands but do you know how a normal place can become a paranormal minefield every week. The podcast original haunted places takes you on an audio tour of a different spooky landmark. You'll explore the mysterious legends weird histories and tales of the supernatural that turned previously normal locations interesting arresting grounds for lingering spirits and paranormal activity the hairs will rise on the back of your neck as you hear these thrilling and disturbing stories described in vivid detail find out what famous spirits are haunting the Hollywood forever cemetery learn why visitors still here the screams of prisoners at Alcatraz Federal Penitentiary but listen at your own risk search for and subscribe to haunted places on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts again search haunted wanted places or visit par cast dot com slash haunted to listen now now back to the story on February Seventeenth Nineteen Ninety seven twenty-four-year-old Brittany Hallberg was arrested for the murder of eighty year old A._B.. Towery Brittany went on the run after tower is death hiding in Tennessee all the while she abused cocaine and supported ported herself with sex work finally in police custody Britney had the chance to tell her version of the story. According to Britney Tower was one of her longtime regular customers a fellow sex worker known <music> only as green is had initially encouraged Brittany to work with him towery hired her on the night of November Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety six while Britney was working. She pulled out her crack pipe in order to take a hit. She had no idea that towery would have such a visceral reaction to her drug use with no warning he flew into a rage towery grabbed a frying pan and struck Britney in the back of the head Britney seized whatever weapons open she could find to defend herself. I the same frying pan then kitchen knives then even forks when none of these slowed towers murderous rage she resorted to grabbing a lamp post and jamming it down his throat wrote then she fled the scene of the crime because she was too afraid to think straight the police new Brittany was lying. The crime scene wasn't consistent with self defense. The blood splatter evidence didn't match the events <unk> as Britney described them pooled blood by the door proved towery tried to escape before Britney pulled him back into the room. Britney was barely injured. If her story was true she would have been severely wounded. The investigators encouraged Britney to tell the story again but this time to be truthful in her account. According to an article published in Amarillo Globe News Brittney recounted eight different different versions of towers death during questioning while details shifted Brittany was consistent on one point she'd killed towery in self defense but the police weren't buying it they knew Britney took the time to shower and steel over a thousand dollars from towers wallet witnesses including the couple who gave Brittany O. Ride reported. That Britney was calm when she left towers apartment. She didn't seem like someone who was is terrified after fighting off an attacker and fleeing for her life after questioning the police charged Britney with capital murder Britney knew her life depended on a good defense she was facing the the death penalty in order to help establish Brittany's character her council repeatedly visited Memphis area truck stops there they interviewed sex workers hoping some of the new Brittany and would be willing to testify on her behalf off their efforts were largely unsuccessful likely because many of these women were reluctant to cooperate with the same judiciary system that criminalized them Britney's trial began in the spring of nineteen ninety. The eight when she was twenty five the prosecution focused on poking holes in Brittany's testimony and disproving her claims of self defense they'd been unable to find any evidence of green is the sex worker who supposedly introduced Brittany and towery it seemed she simply didn't exist. One of the prosecution's major arguments was that Britney premeditated her crime. She lied about needing to make a phone call specifically to gain access S. Two towers apartment. She never worked for him at all. Tower is family testified that he was old and infirm before his death. His sons visited him every single day towers. Children couldn't imagine he had enough alone time to see Brittany on a regular basis and eighty year old family man just wasn't the sort to pick up sex workers off the streets but Britney's defense lawyer disagreed he called to sex workers Connie Johny Baker and Diana Wheeler who had taken towery as a client in the past the prosecution however called their veracity into question by pointing out that wheeler was once arrested for giving police officer false information nation as for Baker. The prosecution noted her long criminal record in an attempt to discredit the witness a paper published with the Cornell Journal of law and public policy noted that members of juries will often make determinations nations based on preexisting bias rather than evidence because an eighty year old father doesn't fit the standard profile of John Jurors rejected the notion that towery could have had such a relationship with Britney or any other sex worker. Similarly juries were unlikely to believe the testimony of two women with long criminal records next a defense psychiatrist took the stand. She'd examined Brittany since her arrest I and now told the court that she diagnosed Brittany with P._T._S._d.. And battered women's syndrome or be W._S.. These diagnoses were consistent with Britney. self-defense story. I post traumatic stress disorder or P._T._S._D.. Is a form of anxiety that manifests after a traumatic event P._T._S._d.. Is closely associated with military service but according to the American Psychological Association civilians ends can develop P._T._S._d.. After events like car crashes accidents or assaults the prosecution was trying to depict Brittany as cold blooded murderer who mercilessly slaughtered towery and then walked away without a twinge age of guilt with P._T._S._d.. Diagnosis the defense instead implied that Britney was survivor who is still grappling with the emotional fallout of towers vicious attack Britney's second diagnosis was be w s a form of P._T._S._d.. According to the D._S._M. Five be W._S.. Afflicts victims of intimate partner violence the majority of people diagnosed with B._W._i.. S are women this also served Brittany's defense as Britney's be W._S.. Suggested that she and towery had an ongoing relationship. They didn't meet by chance before she attempted to Rob Him nor was this instance. The first time tower had been violent with Britney any it's also possible that Britney could have developed P._T._S._D. and be W._S.. After violent affairs with other men but her council focused on how these diagnoses fit into Britney's self-defense narrative ultimately ultimately the narrative failed to sway jurors the trial concluded on March Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety eight and Britney Hallberg was found guilty of capital murder at the age of twenty five if she was sentenced to death by lethal injection the verdict was stunning in an interview Britney described her feelings saying I can't even explain to you what it's like to have someone and say you are sentenced to die. It's words you feel helpless numb. It's almost as if your emotions shut you down when Britney entered death row at a prison in Gatesville Texas this. She felt like she was dreaming. She couldn't believe that she would die for her crimes for weeks. She existed in a trance-like state barely processing what went on around her Patrick Hudson of the University of Edinburgh Law Department described a condition known as death row phenomenon as inmates condemned to capital punishment file appeals there internment grows longer and longer meanwhile these convict spend more time grappling with the psychological horror of their impending death and must live in the harsh conditions on death row longer some anti-death penalty advocates have pointed to death row phenomenon as a human rights abuse but the fear of her looming execution was just one horror Brittany had to face in the meantime she had to deal with the day to day petty abuses that were common for convicted criminals as Britney not said in a statement to the press quote. You would not believe the treatment we are given patients are brought in at all times of the day and night in various stages of hysteria or fear or anger we have been subjected objected to numerous gasings. We have witnessed numerous women who are most obviously out of their senses have excessive uses of force applied such as slamming them to the floor and against the walls. I won't even begin to to put a name or put a number on how many nights I've sat up listening to some poor woman scream out as officers sit around laughing or making fun of her early on in her sentence Britney he went through the Prisons Rehab Program to finally break her drug addiction. Her main motivation was her daughter Mackenzie. Now five years old Britney couldn't undo the fact that she'd killed a man and been sentenced to death jeff but she could still try to be a better role model for her daughter with this incentive Britney finally managed to get clean and stay that way during her incarceration Brittany spoke out about prisoners rights and the abuses she'd personally witnessed or experienced she also campaigned to have the death penalty repealed. She spoke to any member of the press who would listen to her. As we said earlier in January two thousand and seven the Adult magazine Maxim published an article titled Babes Behaving Badly Thirty four year old Britney was included among the so-called hottest women in prison while she titillated the press us Brittany mounted the best legal defense she could afford on November twenty nine two thousand a judge overturned her request for an appeal several years later in May two thousand thirteen forty year old Brittany Witney once again filed but a judge ruled against her in October but Britney and her lawyers continued their efforts over the course of twenty one years Brittany filed three appeals the maximum allowed at the the state level she also made numerous claims at the federal level to date. She has not been able to successfully overturn her conviction. Britney Hobart legal case including her numerous appeals cost the state of Texas more than four hundred thousand dollars that number will only increase if any of her federal appeals are successful. Her continued efforts made Brittany a poster child for the Anti Capital punishment punishment movement activists pointed out that Brittany like many death row inmates cost Texas tax payers significantly more than she would have if she had received a lifetime sentence Texas where Brittany lived most host of her life and sat on death row has one of the highest execution rates in the country most death row inmates in the states spend an average of nearly sixteen years awaiting execution former Randall County Criminal Criminal District Attorney James Farren said that overseeing Brittany's lengthy and expensive appeals cases led him to reevaluate his stance on the death penalty while he didn't disagree with the morality of capital punishment Britney's Brittany's case demonstrated to him the impracticality of execution for all but the most dangerous offenders as of the summer of two thousand nineteen forty six year old Britney is still on death row in Texas twenty one years of passed since her sentencing she continues to advocate for prisoners rights and speaks out against the death penalty experts on Brittany's case predict that her case won't be resolved for for another five years at the earliest in the meantime the death penalty has become increasingly unpopular in the United States according to the Pew Research Center when Britney was sentenced in the mid nineties national approval for the the death penalty was close to eighty percent as of two thousand eighteen only about half of the U._S.. Population approved of capital punishment but some see Britney's advocacy as a miscarriage of Justice A. B. Towery son Russell towery said in an interview quote. I don't want to die before she does. I want to stand there as she's kicking and screaming going to the death Gurney. I want her to think about what my dad went through when she didn't even know his name she is evil and needs to be destroyed. Thanks again for tuning into female. Criminals will be back Wednesday with a new episode you can find more episodes of female criminals as well as all of our casts other shows on spotify or your favorite podcast directory. Several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at par cast and twitter at podcast network work. We'll see you next time. Female Criminals was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast network it is produced by Max and Ron Cutler with sound designed by Dick Schroeder production assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul molitor additional production assistance by Maggie admire and Freddie Beckley. This episode of Female Criminals was written by Angela Jurgensen and Stars Sammy Ni- and Vanessa Richardson.

Brittany Britney Ward Hallberg Brittany Britney Hallberg Russell towery Brittany Hallberg cocaine Britney Britney Marlow Nineteen Ninety murder Britney Hobart Amarillo painkillers Britney Tower Vanessa Richardson Texas Texas Brittany Witney A._B.. towery American Psychological Associa
EP13: The Time History Caught Up With Greed

The Marketing Rescue Podcast

40:00 min | 10 months ago

EP13: The Time History Caught Up With Greed

"You're listening to the marketing rescue podcast the weekly show where we take a look at some epic marketing failures. Along with some pretty amazing and rescues and comebacks, and now your hosts, you go and chat. Hey Chad. Yeah parking. We learn from history. How can we learn from history? That's probably. The quintessential question of our time right now because we tend to know your, yeah, we have to keep making the same mistakes over and over and over and over again. I don't know that's a good question is a really cool article that I found an or Katya publishing com where they talk about the six things you can learn. History helps us develop a better understanding the world. That's very relevant right now. He's help us understand ourselves. Very relevant to history makes us learn to understand other people that's not of today's Day and age history teachers, a working understanding of change stinks changing right now, nothing but change. The news today. It's like they say the only constant is change. Yeah, exactly it gives us the tools to be a decent citizen, and lastly it makes us better decision-makers. I agree one hundred percent. Well the story. We were brought to talk about today I. Wish they agreed with you to. Figure that. So. Are you guys keeping up eating right four five months now? I haven't seen you in person I. See every single day my video. But I haven't seen in person yet. Yeah, it's been a long time. It's been too long. Cautiously excited with some of the things reopening. and. Maybe have lunch together one of these days. Yeah, how you guys preparing for the flying sharks coming in July. Well. Shark Week and shark NATO is is such a big deal over here. That I'm just expecting something to happen whether it's nuclear bombs inside of sharks, or who knows what something's going to be coming? It's twenty twenty three. We have the elections. Look forward to as well on November, so we've got action packed twenty twenty ahead of us. Get Out your Bingo cards. Yes let's dive into today. Interesting story, right? We talked about what you can learn from history and I think the marketing team, the executive team and this company Lucci just exact opposite and chose not to learn anything. Yeah, so let's actually start with a little bit of history. In two thousand five to Stanford students developed a new e cigarette product. They called plume in two thousand seven. They form a company to manufacture and sell their e cigarettes, but it took the modal while to get going and eight years later they changed the name of their product and their company. The company became packs, labs, and the e cigarette. You WanNa. Take a stab at guessing the name Nico Do. Ding Ding Ding. Jewel, so in the summer of two thousand. Fifteen Founders. Adam Bowen and James moncey launched the jewel electronic cigarette brand in fall of twenty seventeen, the newly named jewel labs had a two hundred employees, and by the end of the following year they had fifteen hundred employees, so the company is valued at fifteen billion dollars at this time following six hundred and fifty million dollar investment round. In December, two thousand eighteen jewel sold thirty five percents of the company to Altria. largest manufacturers cigarettes formerly known as Philip Morris Company and the city five, but seen they sold for twelve point eight billion dollars thirty five percent. So. That's a lot of growth from twenty. Into two thousand, eighteen, twenty, nineteen, th explosive crazier? At the time that revenue. I think it was about two billion dollars per year and Wells Fargo set the. City eight billion dollars in two thousand eighteen. Wow to celebrate their deal. A tree gave jewel. Two Billion Dollar Bonus dispute among their fifteen hundred employees, which is one point three million dollars for first sight. It's crazy. That is insane. Wow, yeah, well. I mean. It's no wonder. We see what we're about to see in the story that we're about to unfold, because there's so much money being tossed around, and it's definitely the greed get greedier. It's unfortunate because you would think that. Jeeze, you know. One point three million dollars. That's gotta be enough, but I think as we've seen time after time. It's never enough, and that's how greed works. It doesn't matter if you have a million a billion. There's always a hunger for more so this sounds like just. Hey, it's another amazing. Silicon Valley Success Story and potentially a brand that is. Maybe even doing something good reducing cigarette smoking, which is the number one killer? No, it doesn't. It sounds like purdue. Very familiar I agree with you. The more money companies make the more greedy tend to get. And by the end of two thousand seventeen. Was the most popular e cigarettes in America, a year later, Jewish seventy two percents of the entire e cigarette market, which is massive. Public sentiment was growing in favor of e cigarettes as a helpful, potentially less harmful alternative to smoking, because be smoking, still a problem in the US. And many people so e cigarettes as a legitimate offering in the smoking cessation markets, a new addition to the lines of patches and gums. They could help people break the habits. But US regulatory agencies including the FDA at significant concerns about. was using this products and that's where the cookie starts to crumble. So to understand their concern. We have to go back even further. We've gotta go back twenty years so in nineteen ninety-seven. The FTC files a lawsuit against a company called RJ. Reynolds company the owners of camel cigarettes. And this lawsuit of course was for specifically marketing to children with the JOE camel cartoon campaigns. So quoting from a New York Times article from that period, the agency asserted in an administrative complaint that the company violated Federal Fair trade practice laws by promoting a lethal addictive product to children and adolescents who could not legally purchase or use it. So earlier that year, the Liggett group makers of the element chesterfield cigarette brands had acknowledged that the industry actively targeted minors in their marketing because they knew almost all habitual smokers started as teenagers. So Rj Reynolds was eventually find fifteen million and Kansas District Court said the company was highly blame worthy and deserving of significant punishment, so they find them fifteen million dollars significant punishment that was like a slap on the wrist right? Yeah, yeah, so the results of these and other lawsuits. Is that over time? Things started to snowball and pick up, and then we start to see significant prohibitions on the marketing of tobacco to minors, and as a result, teenage smoking had been on the decline for decades, leading up to Jules Rise around twenty fifteen, and then that big upward swing, and twenty seventeen in two, thousand, eighteen, so jewel. Has This opportunity in? In front of them for at least what they think at the time would be actually growing into a potentially more healthy market, potentially a force for good to help reduce cigarette dependency for people who are addicted to nicotine and kind of transfer dependency over to what kind of the general public and possibly jewel at that time was a safer mechanism for nicotine delivery. Inflection Point, right? They could have learned what happens. To other tobacco companies, because ultimately they in the same space right, yep might be a different products, but the product innovation within the same market, audience but matter. But they chose not to do that. They literally chose not to do that so. October twenty eighteen study found that nine point five percent of teenagers, the age of fifteen to seventeen. And eleven percent of young adults ages eighteen to twenty one. We're actively using Joel just. Think about that for a second. That's ten percents of all kids between age fifteen and seventeen using their products. and the teenager seventeen to fifteen or sixteen times more likely to be jewell users than twenty five and thirty four year olds. The same study said that one in five students between the age of twelve and seventeen at seen jewel being used in school. So these kids were actually starting to use the word juuling to describe e cigarette use, so it's very much like q tech's nail Polish. Turn, the brand name into verb, and the only time that happens is when it's getting used over and over and over that this get. So, why were kids increasingly using jewel and other e cigarettes? During this time right? Well I think it's clearly because they didn't understand the risks. A Twenty Fifteen Stanford University study. Analyzing Adolescence perceptions of risks and benefits of conventional cigarettes and e cigarettes found that some of the participants actually believed that e cigarettes did not contain nicotine only water vapor, and I have to admit when I I kind of saw jewel in particular. I actually thought because of the way that they were marketed that there was nicotine free versions, because so many kids were using them, and that's like the whole crux of why. This is so crazy is that? They didn't know what the risks were still marketed them. As if the did know what the risks were and marketed them as a supposedly safer alternative to cigarettes, so there early marketing efforts just to kind of paint. The picture is they're using a lot of digital media. Especially social media, they have these images and themes with young people, and they spend thousands of dollars to promote jewel as a smoking cessation tool to kids in schools, so let's actually just listen to a clip from this CBS news article that talks about how they actually started marketing towards kids. Children as young as eight years old were targeted by jewel online and through summer camps, according to a Congressional investigation, the company spent more than two hundred thousand dollars to sponsor so wellness camps. Summer Camps Seriously Summer Camps Oh man, it's horrible. Yeah, Oh man. This is kind of near and dear to our hearts, because we two dads in because little kids and. They come back from like a summer camp in juuling all of a sudden and new finance, a company actually promoted. It's while they were on the camp I'm thinking back burning stuff down at this point. Yeah, it'd be so mad. I would be so angry. Yeah, so one of the things that happens in our school. District is in fifth grade. The kids all go on a one week. Science camp and This kind of right passage it's the I kind of like overnight camp kind of thing that the kids in in the district do and so. Everyone's super excited to go on. The science camps like imagine if they come back from this first trip away. As a fifth grader, right? And, unfortunately Julius, actually targeting kids as young as third grade to Scrapie, so let's listen to this clip about that. It's very popular. A lot of kids do in fact roughly one in five high school students admit they have tried vaping last year, and according to the National Institute of Drug Abuse Seven out of ten teams are exposed to e cigarettes through ads. They see them on a lot of Youtube Center. That's like showing on videos for teenagers, so it's really like targeted to us in my opinion. Oh Jeez, yeah I mean when you're targeting children as young as eight and running you too bads against teen videos. It's it's just deliberate. Everything you want to say boss marketing kids, but if you're tactics. Are Marketing Katie's. Pet. Products right so they're in the US. There are two different types of cigarette flavors. You can buy nicotine and Menthol, and that was put into place by. The FDA, years back with a whole Philip Morris. Big Tobacco lawsuits on so Jew has not anymore, but they had these crazy. Flavors Candy Mukhsin Cookies candyfloss. Puppy. And just think about that. If you're a chain smoking adults, you're not gonNA. Start Sucking on a cookie and cream Jewish vaping USB stick. That goes against what they were saying. They were doing, but their actions were speaking very differently. It's disgusting well, and the tactics worked. They were very very effective, so from two thousand seventeen to two thousand eighteen. The CDC reports a seventy eight percent surge in vaping among high school students. It's now four million high school students who went in every five that are actually vaping at this point from one company. One Company. Can I don't WANNA use. Words what destroying a kid's future, but he can drastically impact that kids future. Yeah, and jewel says that their mission is to simply reduce cigarette smoking amongst existing cigarette smokers existing adult smoker, right? But that message is clearly been called into question for right obvious reasons so in two thousand seventeen. The CDC says it's unclear as to whether. E. Cigarettes are even as effective as getting people off of cigarettes as proven FDA approved therapies like patches, gum lozenges so now there's this debate of okay well, even if there is some value to getting people off of the cigarettes and onto a different delivery mechanism, it might even be as effective as a patch. So what's the point and while some people might think that vaping might be safer than smoking? They're still a huge lack of research. About the long term health impacts. It still contains nicotine. The juice packs. Ingredients are often unknown and contained chemicals like we saw this last year with all of these kids getting sick. Vitamin D you see you. Something laced with it or something weird. They could explain for a really long time right? Yeah, and so you just don't know what you're getting. And it's dangerous. Dr! Jack Ler, a Stanford, university researcher who co-founded Group that really rolls of your tongue, Stanford research into the impact of tobacco, advertising or the acronym roles tongue SORTA. Theresa. They really really dug into this. And they maintains an archive. Old Jewels deleted social media posts and I say deleted because will. Delete it at this point. All the social media accounts two and a half thousand tweets, four hundred facebook posts an instagram post, and this is definitely a theme that we see on the show about when a company sells deleting the social media, platforms and content. Something's up. We've seen a multiple times right now. Yes so material from jobs, websites emails print campaigns dating back all the way to two thousand fifteen and Jacqueline said they clearly targeted the youth especially in the early, two, thousand and fifteen in two thousand sixteen. They used attractive model socializing. The jewel device before article by kindred Kaya says jewel contracted advertising agency grits creative group to identify social media influences aiming to recruit uses with at least city thousand followers to establish a network of creatives to leverage as loyalists for its brand, according to an internal email. And when we think of who is being influenced by influences on social media, who are those old people trying to quit smoking or well I. mean the thing is on instagram. The minimum age create an account is thirteen. So that's the problem is social media is? In general, especially with influence or marketing on platforms like instagram. You can't control what ages are going to be interacting with your content, and how it's going to be perceived at especially if you position it towards the younger end of the demographic spectrum which they were with a minimum. Age. Of Twenty five influence or marketing campaign was supposed to be adults twenty five to thirty four. Year just butting right up against that younger demographic, but that is also the platform. It's thin what you do with your creative on the platform which I think was like in my mind the nail in the coffin year, so they use. The teen oriented clothing music. And? They use hashtags and partnered with us or into brands. But I think the thing. That really shocked me when I was doing the research for this. Is this INSTAGRAM AD found? What an orchestra that yeah! This is actual copy from an actual influence or add that actually triggered a lawsuit from the Massachusetts Attorney, General and reads. Mom It's a USB drive and we'll put this image does add in the show notes. It is literally a USB drive. It looks like the one end is got a plug. The male plug of a USB adapter in the other side is the small little. What looks like USB drive, but it's actual Joel device. So I ask you. Chad, mum. It's a USB drive. Targeted towards this is just mind blanked me. This is why I just feel like they didn't learn from history, and they made a conscious choice to market to kids right, so let's read the second from the top comment on this instagram post and says. I told my dad that about my old jewel, and he actually fell for it. L. Right so it's obvious what's going on here who they're interacting with how they're pushing it forward. And from a product marketing perspective, it's not just the ads. It's also the way that they've actually physically designed products and partnered with juice companies to design products that look like highlighter that you would use it. School pens lipsticks. They have these cartridges that the box looks like it would be an actual box of cookies, and this was one that looks like a mock shake right? It's the actual thing looks like a cup of milk. Shake the you from right yet. The actual shape of it and it has one of those little plastic. The stuff goes through. You know when you're at the seven eleven and. She's so. It's very very carefully crafted and designed to appeal to children. You know this is really what blows me away because we spent so much time in coming up with marketing strategies for clients trying to solve complex problems right now and the process that happens is we all get together? We have a brief that somebody put together. It's key insights tennis and we beat it up and we come up with a strategy that's measurable executable within the budget time everything it'd be. So, somewhere, a group of people were sitting down. and. They were brainstorming this right. Hukou, we make up product to appeal to a fourteen year old. What can we do and I? Just I really struggled to comprehend that, and then to take it a step further. The brief had to also say in order to get these kinds of products. It had to have in there, and how do we make it such that you can hide it from your parents? With things like highlighter, and USB's and lipsticks than it led us back into the overarching communication strategy, the bigger thing is what we say to the general public about our products, and how we say that we geared towards adults that we want to help. Stop Smoking. It's it is just. It is just sinister, but luckily in the US, we have the FDA that come after the like this and. My wife listened to the purdue episode the day and she asked me why if the do anything? This. And is very similar as well it. Didn't come down. To degration that I would have expected from them in the circumstance right and I think we see the FDA. Start to step in in this situation in two thousand seventeen, which I think was also late to the game. And it's still an ongoing situation where they're still on going back and forth with jewel, but as it starts to be this outcry from parents who are starting to really. Have a lot of problems with their kids. Because of this, you know, there's multiple lawsuits that are now being filed by parents of underage users, claiming that the company is deceptively marketing, the products is safe and targeting underage users and also targeting non smokers, which is a big. Part of calling jewels bluff on their messaging, and they claim that jewel is as addictive or even more addictive than cigarettes, so part of this is that Jewish proprietary nicotine salt formula enables higher nicotine absorption into the body than traditional cigarettes or other e cigarettes that use nicotine liquid. So not only. Is it marketed to people who wouldn't normally have developed nicotine addictions, or had any sort of relationship with nicotine, but it's a more addictive form that's going to cause mood swings and a lot of behavioral problems. It just what you need in a teenager. What you want, you're trying to get a fifteen year old successfully through high school. Crazy so many observers steering this time they saw this clarity's the eerie similarities, both in Jules appetizing and the regular response an article last year, in the San Francisco. Chronicle detailed one teens journey to tobacco addiction. And her family's attained to hold you accountable, stating that quotes mounting lawsuits against jewel reminiscent of early tobacco legislation. Getting back to the brief usually brief this background and research right right. So, what was the research here that? Hey, we're going to try to do. What Big Tobacco did we gonNA try to land us is and exactly the same spots. He said earlier when we started. You say they had a choice. They could have delivered on their promise trying to get people smokers. Away, from actually inhaling smoke, the grains has cancer, and they decided to go after children. Right mind blank to me. Has To get back to greet task. Get back to the money that they're making yes, and the fact that there is a systemic problem in that. When we look back at what happened within the tobacco industry. Fifteen fifteen million dollar fine is not a deterrent. There is no multibillion dollar corporation throwing around one point three million dollar bonuses to every single employee that is going to be deterred by fifteen million dollar fine. That's like planning your taxes. You put it aside. You know it's going to come, and it doesn't break your company. It's considered a cost of doing business. Disgusting and that's part of the problem, but the regulatory scrutiny is heating up and in two thousand Nineteen House Democrats requested internal documents from jewel is a part of an investigation into the broader epidemic of Teen vaping Representative Raja Krishna more from Illinois is the Chairman of the House oversight? Subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy requested documents relating to jewel social media practices their research on jools impact on health and the deal with Altria as part of the investigation so their response Joseph's response. Hey, hey, hey, you're dog's name is Jules. Does realize that yes, well, that's what happens when you have three little girls and your wife and your girls get together to decide what the name of your dog should be. Which is also a female guess crazy? Crazy. He should have gotten like a pit bulls. And the name jewels is like rubies and diamonds. So a little bit different anyway in response to the FDA crackdown, the company announced that they would be using real real customers in their ads versus models. which may be a good move because these models like super young, and it just looked like teenagers using their products. In late two thousand eighteen JUL shutdown their social media accounts and again. That's massive warning signs when that happens. In Twenty Nineteen Jul agree to make changes to its youth. Practices as part of a settlement with the center of environmental, health. It states that the center can sued you if they violate any portion of the agreement. The agreement states that jewel not, and there's like a few different things. APPETIZER promote its products in media with audiences that fifty percents or more under the age of twenty one. Markets or advertising social media except Gills Age restricted youtube channel so hang on, so they can still promote its products to children as long as not fifteen percent or more of the audiences, children that just can't courts, and if they could court the. We have the option to potentially something about it, but we're not. Committing anything a little bit of a gag order. If you do this, this might happen. That's interesting. Okay, so yeah I mean basically. They say that they are not supposed to use models under the age of twenty eight. And that they cannot advertise within a thousand feet of schools or playgrounds. because. Thing we're summer, S. It's crazy, so you can't sponsor. Advertise it sporting events or concerts that allow people under the age of twenty one. You can't pay for or. Permit Company. Employees contractors to appear, at school or youth oriented educational programs is really sounds like a joke, doesn't it? Just the fact that this is even needed right? Yeah, you can't continue to use the terms adults only or not for use by minors, which actually has been shown to entice minors to use jewel products. And they have to replace that with the phrase, the sale of tobacco products to minors prohibited by Law You can't allow unlimited purchase of your products anymore. You have to set clear limits on book sales, and lastly the settlement requires the jewel has to continue its secret shopper program with specific rules on actions. The company must take if a store sells a product to a jewel secret shopper without asking for proof of age, so the fact that this exists is not surprising. Jewel continues to play both sides. The fact even put in place in the response to the lawsuit jewels spokesman. Not your dog jewel's jewel's spokesman said. Jewel labs do not believe that the case has any merits and all defended vigorously. This is an article in the Forbes magazine. The company also made more prominent warnings. They launched an educational campaign. Such a joke colds. What parents need to know about Jew? And this was supposed to combat the under a series. And, let's actually play a quick clip your from the CEO Talking about just this. Blow America amass tool. See your jewel, the makers of America's favorite electric cigarettes. We recently come under fire for advertisements, targeting young children, and as the face. This company I just might tell you. We are so sorry. We would never mark the developing brains America's future because. That's children. They're our future so special apology to all jewel users a free pack for expanded flavors. That means you get Cherry Berry Unicorn. Blue Raspberry Rainbow and minecraft! Okay, so you can see clearly doesn't take seriously. This is ridiculous. But as a as a marketer, desist like ridiculous to me that this even exists, but what's even more ridiculous is that that is not the CEO. and. By College Humor Anyway. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Let's let's listen to a real interview of the. I think it was on the CBS morning show. Take a listen there. People say jewel is toxic. Is it. The product of the company. Interesting that you would. You would ask the product. We toxicology test all of our products. So when people say the long term effects of vaping are not known. That's true. That's true. That's a true statement. Yeah, he's right. The fact that he answered the company or the products is telling and during this time. They knew that it was toxic. It's public right now, but there's no no way that in Twenty Nineteen August twenty and nineteen the CEO of the company. had. No. This was toxic and they were marketing to children right, and when you listen to the entirety of this interview. It's pretty clear that he knows what's going on. He doesn't really try to defend it. He just Kinda, says yeah, yeah. I see why people think that's problematic. Yeah, my see why people think that's problematic and doesn't really have any response really for question after question. That's post to him willing to interview in the show as well so let's actually play another clip from that interview. Fair to say if you. If you knew this to be a toxic or dangerous substance, you wouldn't be selling. I can't imagine we had. The data supports that we're selling a product. That is damaging to the American public and we had that data that we continue to sell that product reason I have to ask because the tobacco industry doesn't exactly have a great track record when it comes to telling the truth and the American people about what they're selling. Yeah, there is a lot of segregation that comes with us later means while we wouldn't play now. You ask same abouts. Do you think people might not trust you because you've got his billions and billions of dollars from altria Philip Morris? And why did you do that and you to say it? Because we discussed it as leadership team and we felt it was the thing to do for the company, because we'll have access this money and their distribution senses and. It is just from the outside. From a marketing space, this is really just disgusting. It is blatant lies and destroying. Kids it's disgusting I. Find it a really. Discussing. Yes. Thank. Annoys me is one of those episodes that we're going to walk away from and I'm going to be depressed for the next two days like I was with. Right so the next one needs to be uplifting in a great comeback story. With you. That's a good plan. Yeah I mean you can. You could just tell that they know what they're doing and don't care so jewel co-founder Muncie said. Underage use is an issue. We desperately want to resolve any underage consumers using this product are absolutely a negative for our business. We don't want them. We will never market to them. We never have and they're stealing life years from adult cigarette consumers at this moment, and that's a shame so early last year jewel announced a ten million dollar advertising campaign targeting current. Current adult smokers and trying to rebrand jewel as a product to help people switch in March. Jewel started it self to employers and insurers to help. Their employees stopped smoking cigarettes. This enterprise level to campaign offers discounts and personal coaching along with support video to participants, it September the US FDA warrant jewel to stop. It's deceptive marketing practices. Stop Stop. They warned them. They warned them. They go warning after all this after all this stuff. All the marketing the lawsuits if warned them September of Twenty nineteen. Don't know man I don't know we work with the FDA lots, and it's such a laborious process to. Santa Creative through its, and you know the hoops to jump through years go to company that blatantly markets to children, and they get a warning gripe well, and the thing is as you mentioned. Deleting your social media accounts is usually a bad sign. If you ever get to the point where you think Ooh, we may need to take our counts down. There's a problem but that problem. Isn't solved or resolved by taking those accounts down actually a month later they stopped all marketing in the US voluntary right. They just like pull the plug and they continued marketing in the UK, I think, but now there's multiple lawsuits going on with within there as well. So Dr Jack Ller from Stanford's the gentleman I talked about earlier. He said that Joel's social media reach has lasting repercussions. As in November, two, thousand, eighteen, the company's Premium Hashtag, Hash tag Jew had been used two hundred sixty thousand times in instagram posts. The and those posts aren't getting deleted. Only Jewish account got deleted, but all those hashtag posts are still up. and I wonder which percentage of the two hundred sixty thousand are underage kids versus adult. Smoking's trying to quit. So jewel says that ninety nine percent of all social media content related to the company's generated through to your point, third party quote, third party users and accounts with no reation of the company. The company around that it's called influence or marketing you. Going he can't say oh, we don't. We don't create the content. Is these third party content? People they've could seriously. That's just disgusting. It's called talking out of both sides of your mouth, so their network of social influencers creates this massive unpaid peer to peer impact. is obviously still going on doesn't stop just because the campaigns have ended. Jacker says turning off their social media channels is likely to have at most a limited fact. And recommend that the products simply be pulled from the market, so the founders of jewel continue to stand behind their product just last year. Co Founder James Mancini's said in an article in Forbes that he thinks that they can get the technology to a place where no underage consumer can ever use the product and he sees continuing opportunity. We are point five percent of global tobacco market. We've hardly. Hardly touched the problem we came here to solve. Do you know when you say? We point five percent of the tobacco market? They are seeing green. They are seeing that got ninety five point nine percent white space available to them, and if the gun industry conned regulates or Figura how children can should guns of by accident? How on Earth is a nicotine company going to prevent children's six? Teenagers from using their product it's laughable. Man What have we learned feel like which has been rambling in bashing it, but this is important. The reason why we want to talk about this is because I. do think there's some things to learn about this. From of Morgan perspective I think if you don't learn from your past. You just dead in the water. It's just so funny to me like the market research we do when we launch brands or have huge massive campaigns. is so strong. It plays such a big impact on our strategies that become up with. So I'm just surprised. They just completely ignored that and gain i. just think that is purely based on greed. They was starting to make so much money, and they just want to get more and more and more and the final thing for me is. Done. Market to kids, period and I think we should do an episode around. The ethical -Ness of marketing towards children I I just for me. Personally I think there's no place in the marketing industry to market anything children zero. It's a really big ethical discussion, because there are so many products that are marketed to children, good products, bad products, the tactics for marketing to children are broad and varied everything from youtube videos to cartoon characters on the cover of cereal box, right, and so there are so many different. Influences on children from a marketing perspective that just like we talk about on a number of episodes that we've covered. Those influences are very often unknown, undetected and widely present. In the lives of of our kids, so it is an interesting topic that I think would be amazing to dive into and with that. I think that's a good place to end. Keep the reviews coming everybody. We really hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll talk to you next week. Current kick to kick the habit. You've been listening to the marketing rescue podcast. This show is hosted by NICO CASSIA and Chad. Children's the CO founders of KPI agency a marketing. Rescue Agency. BE SORTA? Visit Marketing Rescue PODCASTS DOT COM to join the conversation access. The show notes, contact the hosts and discover fantastic funds confidence.

nicotine jewel US FDA jewel labs FDA America purdue INSTAGRAM Stanford Altria CBS Ding Ding Ding Joel Jules Nico Do Stanford Katya publishing NATO
1129: Patient Pain Reduction

The Dentalpreneur Podcast with Dr. Mark Costes

50:23 min | Last month

1129: Patient Pain Reduction

"This episode is being brought to you by front office academies upcoming virtual event building. Your black belt team all know that. The last twelve months has been extremely disruptive to the dental profession particularly when it comes to dental teams. Many of us have struggled with team turnover and many have also experienced mass exodus of their teams and most of us are discovering a frustrating lack of talent in the job when it comes to dental support staff for that reason we created front office academy which is a brand new community and has formal trainings to take your advanced level team members and improve their skill set and also trainings to take those who have zero dental experience and trading their up to be all star team members. So we're really excited about front office academy and what it can contribute to the profession during these unprecedented times to learn more. Just go to front office. Academy dot com also really exciting. Is that on april. Twenty third front office academy is hosting. Its very first virtual event as a launch party of sorts and there is an incredible speakers. Line up in store for you first. We have mike mccallum wits. Mike is one of my favorite business authors and he is author of the bestselling book profit. I now mike was actually slated to be one of our keynote speakers for two thousand twenty six summit in march and we all know what happens to live events in two thousand twenty sweet graciously agreed to take the keynote spot for this event. Front office academies i ever. Virtual event can't wait to hear mike present next up. We have dr sommer caz mel who is an extremely successful Dental practice owner. She owns multiple practices and colorado. Also decide blacktop coach. Next up. dr. Addison colleen also d'essai black belt coach and multiple practice owner next up we have dsl co founder. Mike loma town and erica aguilar. Who is our billing and coding expert inside the i and espn. We have the queen. Herself ashley evans and yours. Truly now the cost for this. Virtual event is only forty nine dollars and the cool thing about the way. We're working this. Is that a hundred percent of the ticket. Proceeds will be matched and donated to the national children's health foundation. So if you guys sign up yourself or your team members for this event every ticket gets matched to ninety eight dollars and that fall. Ninety dollars will get donated to our children's foundation. So we're doing this as a celebration to help launch front office academy to get you guys the very best content when it comes to team training and leadership within your team and we just can't wait so go to front office academy dot com for more information and to register. Can't wait to see you guys. At the virtual event on april twenty third up. So it's being brought to you by my homeys over at magento december one of my favorite new companies that i recently rolled out in all of my dental practices. They have a really cool feature called voicemail drops. That's an ingenious and fully automated way to stay connected with your patients to welcome new patients to the practice. Reach out about unscheduled treatment reactivate hygiene patients. Were send out end of day. Post op calls. I use this on a daily basis and it's been a huge value. Add to my group. The memento team also spends a lot of time making ultra efficient user-friendly and totally customizable paperless forms patients can receive these forms via text or email or they can update their forms right inside the mobile app. So your team isn't spending their valuable time with scanning or data entry and if that wasn't enough but then has several great tools to help offices with case acceptance we all know that delivering treatment plans in a way that makes sense to the patient greatly increases case acceptance. That's why magento has redesigned. Their treatment plans to be fully customizable so that providers and treatment coordinators can present treatment in a language that is less like a foreign language. So if you'd like to schedule a free demo just go to info dot magento is slash costas one more time. That's info dot modesto dot i o. ford slash costas. You'll be glad you did. The dental per noor podcast. Okay doctor. it's time to put down that hand piece. You're listening to the show dedicated to helping dentists. Get their lives back. It's time to decrease your stress increase your profitability and regain your passion now introducing your host. Dr mark kostas kelo. Everyone welcome to another episode of the dental podcast. I'm your host dr marcos guys. I'm super excited for our guest today. she is a very very prominent person in the world of pain management. Her name is. Dr amy baxter. She is a pediatric emergency physician. And the ceo of paintcare labs with a mission to eliminate unnecessary pain. Dr baxter has disrupted how vaccinations and shots are given and now is taking on the opioid crisis. She invented and patented vibrant cool vibrational cryotherapy to treat tend to napa 'this and decrease opioid use and disruptive buzzy device that has been used to control needle pain for over thirty five million needle procedures today. Eight there are fifty independent studies on pain balking frequency that she isolated technology now called industry leader in noninvasive. Patron lease by frost and sullivan paintcare. Labs new dual therm vibrating. Low back pain device just received a one point seven million dollar. Nih grant in is the first to kombi co to combat opioid use by combining six drugfree. Pain release modalities. She was named two thousand eighteen. Healthcare game changer. Healthcare transformer wall street journal idea person most innovative ceo of the year and top ten disruptors in medical tech as well as top women in tech to watch. Welcome to the podcast. Dr baxter wow. I'm in awe of you making it through that. I am great mark. Thanks so much for having me. Just tell us a little bit about where you are and about your history. If you don't mind sheryl in addition to everything you just ahead so i'm gonna atlanta georgia in high did pediatric emergency medicine. Amorim gail undergrad. Emory med school. Cincinnati children's for residency. And then i did a child abuse fellowship and then i did an emergency fellowship at king's daughters in virginia and then my husband told me to quit doing fellowship job and so i went to ut southwestern where i actually got a clinical research fellowship. While i was being attending and we didn't care as much for dallas as we did for atlanta and so that plus three small children in the fact that my parents weren't atlanta just brought us back like a magnet. So here we are. We've been here ever since fascinating. So i i did my research and i was fortunate enough to watch some of your presentations particularly your ted talk on youtube. Really really interesting stuff. Can you tell us how you got. Into the field of pain management and and kind of getting into. I guess the private and research fields when it comes to pain management et cetera. Yeah so. I'd always been interested in unnecessary. Suffering you know advocating attrition. you just wanna go. Aw and fix anything. That's going wrong with somebody. So it was very peculiar to me when there were colleagues or physicians who were pretty stoic. About their patient's pain. So i started my very first research project wanting to prove that topic on aesthetic called ex dividend improving spinal taps on neonates. We do a lot of rule out sepsis lumbar punctures and not using a topic on aesthetic. Seemed crazy to me so i. I had to do a piece of research to prove that. Most people didn't use numbing medicine at the time. And because my irbe you would do it. Wouldn't let me do a randomized trial with no novi medicine exterior. This is going to be better than what they're getting now. So did that. And then got interested in needle pain in general when my son was the right age to get his shots which actually happened to be nine. Eleven like the day of nine eleven. He was getting his royal back scenes and the nurse whether she was stressed about nine. Eleven I don't know even know that had happened yet. But she was. You better sit there and be still or this is really gonna hurt. And i was like well. No actually. there's some topical anesthetics in. I'm actually and she was like that stuff at work and gm did in there and made him afraid of needles and so that deviated my life trajectory because that point is like well forget worrying about doctors not caring about pain with good the patients and the parents something that they can use to address needle. Cain even if the system doesn't care so that kind of dramatic story was what started me on a journey through physics trying to understand the physiology of pain learning about a delta nerves and chilean corpuscles. And things you don't get in medical school or dental school but it turns out that you can actually cancel pain in the same way that you can use cancelling headphones to stop the sound getting through. Wow fascinating fascinating stuff. One of the that. I remember about your tedtalk. Presentation was the fact that the number of injections or in one day or previous to a certain point in somebody's life really had an effect on future needle phobia thought that was really interesting. And and the fact that. I guess if you had if you had a bunch of immunizations and one day or a really bad experience like your son had that could affect you for the rest of your life. Sure like most people who go into medicine. We aren't really bothered by needles. Because your self selecting if you go into a profession where you're doing a lot of injecting you probably ought be pretty cool with needles yourself. But i think we also assume that we are the center of the bell curve whether it's whether it's taste in food or whether appreciation of different lifestyle choices i think most people think that they're pretty close to average so when it comes to needle phobia zoom that. Our experiences are pretty similar to what our kids experiences were. And the reality as you noted is that in nineteen eighty two. We started giving boosters when children were old enough to remember but prior to that time anyone born nineteen two earlier got almost all of their vaccines if not all of them before they were age too. So that means that we don't remember. We only got six injections are total life and until we started adding the boosters and then flu shots every year and then we changed oral polio vaccine to an objective polio vaccine. So kids today. Early kids born in two thousand They got thirty six injections before they were six years old. So it's a really different landscape and we tend to judge. We tend to think these kids are caught on these kids week. These are weenies when in reality these kids gut six times more shots and got them when they were old enough to tell themselves a story about the trauma of going to the doctor and being held down and repeatedly stuck. And so that's where our research developing the buzzy device for needle pain but that's where the research took us was. We found so many more kids who are afraid of needles. Were supposed to be and discovered it was a new phenomenon. Wow excellent so this is really really pertinent to your audience today. Because we deliver injections every single day. And we see phobic patients every single day. And it's usually associated with some sort of previously bad experience or. It could be something as simple as you know a parent that that was phobic and they witnessed that or heard the stories of how terrible the shot is going to be or had been for them up. So we're dealing with this a lot. i was fortunate enough to have a mentor in dental school. One of my row instructors that that took the time for everybody in has row and nobody else in the school. Cut this this type of training. But he showed us how to really utilize topical anesthetic. And how if you know top glenn aesthetic is going to penetrate the oral mucosal by about one to two millimeters and if you just drop a couple of drops of local anesthetic less than two millimeters and let it sit for a bit. Then you're going to have a greater likelihood that the patient is going to have a painless injection. It just takes time and patience additionally he showed us this technique where you massage the gum tissue a little. Bit as you're as you're injecting an and then you're kind of Gently shaking tissue a little bit and it was. It's a technique that i've used every single day in private practice since he taught it to me and i'm consistently getting feedback from the patients that that that was the best injection that they've ever gotten so as it was a gift that somebody showed me that early on what is going on there when we are shaking or vibrating. An area to make painless. Sure i'm gonna give you a top layer and then going to give you a deeper layer of mysteries show. The top layer is that motion sense outweighs pain in importance to your brain. So if you bang you're under the hammer and you shake it. What you're doing is you're stimulating. The pacini corpuscles which do the motion sense. So this is the gate control or gate theory but really it's passed a theory. Now's nineteen sixty five miles. I can wall came up with this observation. And they sort of lego or teleological. Put it into this okay. Well we see this happening so probably what's going on. There's a a pain. And mechanical receptor sensations are all rushing to the same gate and if the mechanical receptors which are on big fat. A beta nerves and their wilma unaided. If they get to the gate. I than they slam the door on the really tiny wimpy delta a small fiber pain which is pretty close to what happens but the interesting thing that's been discovered in the last five years really. Is that these. Mechanical receptors are very specific to the amount of pain. They're able to block. And so you've got the messner light-touch corpuscles you've got the miracle discs which are long too long pressure. You've got the battalion's. I've noted which are the deepest ones and they do position sense. And then you got any. What your stretch ones. So all of this stuff is actually not the most important part of it. Though it's important is that the chilean's do most of the pain blocking and they respond to a specific frequency. So if you want to maximally block keen you wanna maximally stimulate virginia and it does about ninety percent of the pain blocking and it response to vibration and it responds to a really fast. Ration- like hundred eighty two hundred and fifty hertz. So all of that is new information in the last five ten years. About why jiggling jaw or taking the whip and an overriding the pain sensation by the motion sensation. Why that works now. The deeper level actually Is that that we karate in nineteen ninety-six who also noted oracle and tm. J. pain reduction with motion. He he says that there aren't any petitions in the face. So so what this means is. There's there's definitely hearts of the body know related to joint anything in that area. Where the champions. And that's why russians working and that's why it has to be very fast frequency but i do not believe that we actually know what is happening because if there aren't pretending corpuscles in the face then the reason that that motion is working is is some additional mechanism that we haven't defined yet interesting interesting because there is a device called the vibe reject and can put that on An aspiration syringe in that does vibrate. And i've heard that works well of a lot of colleagues that use it is that similar to what the buzzy devices that that you've patented. Yeah so there's actually a meta analysis by you wiki at all you e. k. I that looked at dental vibe. The blaine labs operation thing and buzzy and found that buzzy had a greater effect size in either of the other two. and probably. It's because we're in the right frequency for the beginning corpuscles even though again i don't know if they just haven't found the burundians and the jaw or whether we karate was wrong but other people have said their options in the face regardless buzzes using a two hundred hundred vibration but also an ice pack ice. Does something called descending. Inhibitory control and the other part is that while you might have a vibrating needle or a dental vibe. That sort of stretches a little tiny bit of skin and thus get some of the extra phoenix pencils with stretch as well as vibration What buzzy does is you put it on the next silla or the mandible and bone transmits vibration to a much much broader area. So at this means. Is that when the patient or win. The practitioner is holding buzzy on the next sola for an upper palate injection or for any kind of upper jaw or at. They're holding it on the mandible whether it's where the nerves come out or even lateral bit. Further down toward the and jay. You're getting a much broader spread of this two hundred hertz stimulation and you're also using this descending inhibitory control with the ice to do a feedback loop that decreases pain so the combination of the two are more effective and because often they have the patient holding it on. There's a bit of control to address the fear and there's a bit of positioning that can do a feedback loop to do better. Wow that sounds fascinating. That's amazing. how long did it take you to develop this technology. I started in well the day that my son had the the issue in two thousand one over the next couple of years. I tried to figure out a way to replicate this station of running water. Like you burn your fingers to get running water. Pain goes away. It was very messy. It didn't work. I thought about the idea of vibration causing the motion and running water. Since when i was coming home from an emergency shift in two thousand four and it by itself didn't work but when you put the ice together with it left marks on my kid stands and they couldn't feel anything so that was the the die was cast. I was not going to be mother of the year. 'cause i leave marks on my hands with a warden wheel but from two thousand four it was about two years of noodling and making prototypes in my basement. I mean literally. The kids and i would borrow would take people's old cell phones. It didn't work. And we will dissect them and find what made them vibrate and harvested whole bunch of little motors. Then i got an nih grant in two thousand eight nine and that was only discovered that needle fear was more than it should be and so did a couple studies on that for the next year's published. Something on that golly. Twenty seventeen and in twenty this teen one of my colleagues who turns was an opioid recovery asked whether or not buzzy would work for him to take a total knee. Replacement without any opioids and it did so. That was really when the the change in trajectory was complete. Because by that time we were. Selling some buzzes. I went on shark tank. Goes very exciting but it was still a doctor stole a researcher that was my my ego was tied into making a scientific contribution that would change behavior and change the way we vaccinated. Gpo and change how people perceive pain. It wasn't until my colleagues experience that i realized that all kinds of pain would respond to this and that the opioid crisis could be dealt with in a non pharmacologic way. So that was went. And my jew i was. I was a procedural sedation. As for the last ten years of my career so fall nell straight up. Morphine decks accommodating. Nitrous i was. I was really good at giving whatever the patient needed whether it was for of fracture reduction waza ketamine. I'm not opposed to pharmacology at all but when it comes to being able to block pain and when it comes to addiction knowing that there are better options that are non addictive really effective became a passion that caused me to quit practicing medicine. Go into researching this full-time that's fascinating to tell us. More about how this sort of device or any type of device or recipe could potentially decrease the necessity for opiates. Okay so first of all if you have pain and it is ongoing. One of the inherent problems with pharmacology is that you have a finite peak. And then the pharmacokinetics are gonna start dropping off and you're gonna lose a clinical efficacy before you lose enough of the drug in your system to to need more so for example. So so you take ibuprofen and it goes up in the first twenty thirty minutes and then it has a slow decline. Well if you take it before you get to the point where the the serum concentration has gone down the half-life then you're going to end up overdosing on ibuprofen same thing on. Opiates so inherent in pharmacology is that you're going to have a period of time where you're below the clinical efficacy of the drug for pain. But you're not yet able to take it again without risking having build up and taking it before the half life is done so it looks graph but the the point of this is that there. It is going to be a point of fear. Where if you are overwhelmed by pain. If you're concentrating on pain if you're combining fear and catastrophes and pain then you're inevitably going to have a period between the clinical scheme where efficacy wears off and when the half life is done so that you can take another dose and that little period of fear actually ramps up the perception of pame so one of the ways in which using a mechanical device for pain is better than pharmacological is that it gives the patient power over when they do something to to relieve the pain. If you bumped your elbow when you rub it immediately the pain goes away so having a device like i mean we call buzzy vehicle when it's for knees it's essentially the same thing we're working on a new one. That's a little bit bigger called by local pro which is a different device but what matters is the frequency so if you know that you put the frequency on in the pain immediately stops and you can put it with ice or not. What it with is. Put it with heat. Those choices give a patient control and decrease fear fear in the middle and the foulness increase the perception of pain. So part of the whole pain continuum is processed into place called the interesting gillet gyrus and that is evaluating whether something is dangerous to you so if you have control over the pain. The interesting hewlett gyrus says. We don't need to pay as much attention to this. It's not dangerous to us. Great example is say. You're playing a game that you like or you're doing something and you hurt part of your by your say. I actually broke my neck of years ago. And when my negatively hurting. And i'd be in front of the computer. It was annoying me and i would have gotten scared except that i knew i had a vehicle a heat back in the other room that i could go get and so just knowing that if i wanted to get up off the chair and stop what i was doing. I had something in the other room. That could help was enough to give me an extra half hour of ignoring it because it didn't scare me whereas if you're in that same situation and you know you've got an hour before you can take another pain pill that might start to get distracting to you because then you start focusing on the fact that you can't do anything about making time pass faster. Yeah that's that's really fascinating This this caught my eye. The low back pain device. Because i've personally had two back surgeries. And i know what back pain feels like real back pain when we're talking like an eight or nine out of ten for months at a time. It's extremely distracting like you say but it's very difficult to work. And because of the nature of our profession were sitting in the stool and and Posture is a big issue in the types of procedures. That were doing all day. Every day over decades really leads to a lot of people that have chronic back pain in our profession. Can you tell us about the device that you have created for for back pain. Sure so this is the one that we're currently studying with the nih. So national institute of drug abuse funded us to see if having a multimodal low vaccine device. So we're combining multiple different frequency and either heat or cold and pressure and a metal back plate. That's about Six by eight inches. So it's conformed to put the most treasure into the muscles adjacent to the spine. Because usually those are when you got posture back issues. It's because you stretch those muscles out in in a weird position and you've been using additional muscular energy to hold them together and so then when you try to stand up. They can't really elastic cord to for pulled out and so they can't go back together enough and so then they start aching. So it's a a plate. That has three different motors in it. I've been experimenting with different thicknesses of the plate and the shapes so that the propagation of the vibration gets the most nerve endings and we actually have my first feedback from someone last night that we sent our first device to. She's a doctor up in connecticut around yale and she had participated in indigo gopher. Do therm before we got it. Got it funded by the h. And so i actually burst out crying because i've been doing this for four years and i wasn't one hundred percent sure that this was going to make a difference for somebody who had really serious back pain and she said it was better than anything should ever used and said the constant stimulation of multiple different vibration patterns just interrupts the paying it will not be clinically consumer available for probably about a year and a half but But we're on the we're on the right calf with it. One thing. that's really fun is that there's a guy in sweden that was doing research with vibration in the early seventies and he found that when you left by ration- back plates on for about thirty minutes there was a dramatic change in the duration of time we find about three and a half to four hours consistently with the trouser done so far of low back pain relief so to use it for thirty minutes. Then you get like three and a half hours of pain relief and it's interesting something clearly going on because it's a very specific regardless of others acute or chronic. There's something going on. So what this guy had prophesized in the early seventies was that it might be that if you trigger these nerves enough that you invoke the The a one fibers that are wrapped around muscle spindles and so those are not traditionally thought of as being gate control nerves. But but you know you think about the the native peoples that would you know run for twenty four hours for people that were able to do really profound feats and do it for a long time. It makes sense that the body would have some kind of mechanism to override chronic pain that lasted for a long time. Or that if you had a sensation for long enough that the brain would have a way to say okay. This is not providing anything useful. I'm just gonna shut this down. So i don't know if that's what's happening or not but i'm really interested in the one after on some whether or not that is is part of what we're doing. Now wow show a cool dental for you totally red shout out dr patel. I mean. there's lots of dr patel's but Shoutouts dr patel who said so. He's been using buzzy on the mexico and the mandible four injections but he said that he's been putting it on people's temple to override the gag reflex with bite wings. And i think what might be happening is that it may transmit the vibration to the chemo tactic triggers zone and that ney. Stop the nausea gag reflex. I'm dying for someone to study this prospectively. I have no idea whether this works perspective or not. But it's an eight percent incidence of of Gag reflex right. So it should be a high enough percentage and people should have a history of it that you could do a randomized trial and get an answer with probably sixty people. Total that But i'm very interested. Do you have any theories about why that could work if it does. Do you know. It's very interesting because i've tried everything. We've we've tried to work with pressure points with with our gag irs. We've rubbed kind of clavicle. We've grabbed clavicle and kind of massage that we have people tighten up their apps and lift their heels up off the ground. Some we get we get mixed mixed results with that but it is a problem. I mean they say eight percent incidents but when it happens and it's keeping you from being able to get through a procedure or you've already completed a procedure and you need to get like an impression or something or you need a post op x ray or something. It's it can cause a problem we've had to have people come back sedated. In order to complete auto complete a basic exam because they couldn't tolerate it's funny because a lot of it is. I believe a lot of it a psychological because obviously they're able to chew food and put it in their mouth without without gagging but for some people you put it past their canines or their pre molars and touching anything else in. They start gagging so physiologically. It's actually really happening to them. But it doesn't seem like they'd be able to survive if that was the case with other things other than dental dental instruments and whatnot. Yeah have you i. I don't know. Because when i been i've i've had gags with Not often and and you can kind of overpower it. But there is a place. Just past the canines where sticking a little bit further out laterally than food would normally go. That's where it tends to almost like. We're the always been so long since i've not when you got when monks you got the was you can get a stone in to the saliva is stopped with What does that. A solver stone in the Done in the gland below the tongue. No no no. It's more it's right. It's like Right under the master. It's going to come to me. you know. We'll get a good inflame don good product gland or yes. Yes thank goodness i pulled out. How are being ridiculed. Every single dentist listening to spirit. I discussed the game so so so there's an area so it's kind of like it's just it's like exactly underwear the prada's there's just this little place where that that is is where i did a little gaggy and that's kind of where the bite wing is but no that you can use vibration with people that have That are unsteady on their feet. And so it's a semi. There is a semi circular condition. That vibration help straighten people up so it may be again. We know whether it's semi-circular whether it's the chemo tactic triggers zone by I actually was surprised that this guy said they haven't put it on their temple. Even though bonus conduct really well. I still would think that that more exceptional would make it be better or someplace just under the ear lobe. May you're on the on the angle of the jaw there but But regardless. I'm not sure but i do think that there is a chemo. Tactic trigger zone related thing. Because they're also is talk of vibration helping space sickness and men one point. I was talking to one of the chief. Medical officer of the iss about how rain could impact the the zero g nausea. Let's there's something there. There's definitely something interesting there. But not enough to put a five k. on it or make the claims. But i do think there's something worth studying there. Yes what is the process. I mean you're you're clearly an inventor you've invented lots of things. What's what's the process from when you actually get a patent which could which could be extremely long a long period of time when you actually get a patent to being able to release it out into. The world is a bona fide product. While there's so much unpack there so you don't actually need to have a patent It depends on what your goal is and when you have something bad is really easy to make and really easy to copy. That's one a patent may be valuable but if it's something that is going to be fast market and you gotta means a production or you've got away license it. Sometimes pending with little simple provisional thousand dollar filing is perfect. There's really no reason to go through the whole process of patenting. There's something the p. T. a. b. the patent trade analysis board. It's it is a way that a triumvirate of three different people can overrule the patent board So a lot of inventors have their patents overridden when a big company gets interested. Because we don't have enough money to fight some wine who is trying to invalidate our patent but the big companies can say. Oh you're just a troll. And this is our idea and then invalidate the patent easily so that makes the value of a patent lot less than it used to be. All of that. Said if you're going to come up with an idea that is worth patenting. You need to do it within a year of making any kind of public declaration of what you've done. So i filed my first patent as a provisional in two thousand six because i was presenting a vibrational pain device blocking pain for me injecting lighter kane in somebody who came into my office or while the emergency department and so since i was presenting it at a conference i filed the pat then to make sure that we were covered so it turns out i could have waited a full year but so long as you get it within a year after that. It's about what domain now. That's totally different from the process for fda one of the ironies in frustrations about medical devices is that it's just as rigorous to go through the fda for a drug as it is for a device in terms of how you do the trials what you claim. We're actually applying right now for additional coverage for dental injections because while we have regular injections and are five ten k. Controls pain from injections. Iv access needles. But we didn't specifically get dental because at the time we filed there. Were not explicit dental trials so now that there are five studies that were just done split now using fuzzy for dental injections now. We can get the specific indication for dental by. That's been i mean our first. Fda was issued in two thousand fourteen so allah later. Yeah yeah so So there's all of these different kind of byzantine things one thing. That's really interesting. As i figured when we first got the nih grant that that was gonna take care of the fda because it's all the same government right they talk to each other and it's like no no these. These guys are good. That's a huge assumption with the government. Yeah i really thought that. What i did was not only did our work with the nih. Have nothing to do with the fda but there was an fda auditor who came to us auditing whether we should be a class two device at the same time as we had already filed our class one fda application so fda auditor didn't know that we'd already applied for a class one device and so we had this horrible brutal nauseating post traumatic stress. Fda audit as a class two device and then as soon as we were granted. The cost one all the sudden. The woman just disappeared so just like oh well the nevermind. By though it was it was It was very stressful. A lot of stuff going on even if you had the fda clearance however that doesn't guarantee that centers for medicaid and medicare are going to pay for it so whereas with a drug when you pass through all of the studies and you prove efficacy then most pharmaceuticals are paid for once. They're proven effective. But with a device centers for medicaid medicare will not necessarily grandeur of coverage even if you're effective so there's There's work to be done to get people off drugs in this country and onto multiple different things at work and we're not there yet so let's go back to the buzzy device for dental professionals What exactly does it look like. Would we need one per room. Do you think or how exactly you know how much space does take. And how long does it take to administer etc. Sure so because a pediatrician. And i started doing this for kids. Vaccines are primary designed. Looks like a f buzzes. So get over it the eh grade plain black when now for adults but the irony is that even adults will tend to get a b once. They've committed to the fact that they don't like needles. They're like fun. Whatever bring on the. I don't care we also have a lady buzz because in south africa they have killer. Bees people have lost family members to be so. He's okay lady. Bug was the better part of our but It's about the size of a computer mouse. And the the action and of where the motorist that gives the frequency that does about seventy ninety percent of injection pain That is at where the stinger would be on a b. It's kind it's the opposite end of where the switches so it's about it's it's curbed so that it will go over the cheekbone or the jaw and it's really important to hit as much surface area as possible because the pain nerves. A delta pain nerves all over. The body are more of a fine web and even if you're just putting an injection in one spot. That is transmitting to the web. And its transmitting to the dorsal columnist. Final chord as multiple signals. So because of that you to get as much surface area as possible to override that signal. So the the surface area touching the Mandible are important and the patient chan press it to their jaw or the men will Or the jar a maximum of an and it works contact. I mean it's just like if you burn your finger as as you put it under cold water. The pain stops. So you don't have to wait but you do have to have it in place while you're using it. So the best way to do it is to have the patience hold themselves help them angle it so that the the bottom end of the device is toward their mouth or toward where the ejection is going to be. And then they can just press it to the bone and it's going to transmit down now if you have the ice pack it is gonna work better. It is not necessary so you're still going to get some bang for your buck. The just the vibration alone say you don't have to go back and forth to the freezer is worth is pat. Go and them. There's a little silicone strap on the bottom on behind the excel units extra large units and. There's a hook on the back of the mini units and so the ice pat just attached to the back so it looks like wings. I mean sticking with this be motif so the ice touches the skin but the way that we made the ice packs. It has a finite amount of thermal energy in it so they freeze solid but they will melt before they can cause frostbite. The freezing solid is important. Because again you want to make sure that that gration transmits unimpeded if you had a joke. Hack then you're not gonna be transmitting the vibration. It's better to just not use it at all if it's refrigerated but not frozen because you really the vibration is the is the the secret sauce in this. And the the ice pack is just an extra little bit of of seasoning. Gotcha gotcha end. These are currently available to dental. Professionals are not yet. Oh yeah no they definitely are okay we just. We can't explicit actually now. We can explicitly advertise that. They were credential injection so long as we cite one of the five papers that that has the data but yes so we went to him in a few years ago and we were in a couple dental catalogs the overwhelming interest that we had for vaccine connex travel clinics Women with ideas and then of course moving to the the vibrant coal for tendency plantar fasciitis that too. We kind of lost interest in dental a little bit. Just we don't there's there's eight of us were an all woman company. We have eight people. We don't have a whole lot of bandwidth for advertising. So you can get them with. Thermo fisher med line. Get him on amazon. It can get them at paintcare. Labs dot com or shopping care dot com and honestly The said the come with batteries. They last for about twenty hours. And then you just replace the batteries so what. We usually tell doctors offices. Because they're not getting injections in every office is that you probably need one for every three to four rooms and i would say i mean i think most most dental offices would need to their hundred bucks there so two hundred bucks get to them. You're done is definitely gonna look into that teaser. This is a fascinating fascinating device. That you've created here. Congratulations on on all of it. Oh thank you well you know. One of the thing is that's important. You guys do this better than almost anybody. Is that this distraction for the enters. And hewlett gyrus is complementary to using the pain control of buzzy. So whether you're jiggling jar whether you're putting buzzy on the the whether you're putting buzzy is on having a distraction also key and one of the cool things that we've discovered in our research is that the the way the injures viruses maximum distracted is if you give somebody an unfamiliar counting task. So i like is if somebody's really anxious i have them look across the room and count the number of letters that have holes in them. So i I'm looking actually at fear and dental right now because we're working our fda so E- has a whole a whole d- has whole he has a whole Yeah so once you dynastic okay. One two three. This shot has done so having look across the room at a task. is magnificent as an adjunct to mechanical stimulation pain release. I'm gonna have to put some posters on the ceiling then because they're usually looking straight up at the ceiling past my head exactly. Yeah we have. We not some kid posters with the yamaguchi monkeys or on the bed. Kind of things but Not any printed words so if your fear don't they'll an adult population maybe just print out. Everything is going to be fine. And could that on the ceilings. I love that love. Will dr baxter has been a true pleasure Getting to know you today and listening to all the advances. You're creating for the medical and dental professions. And and i would love it if you could just take a moment to maybe share your contact information absolutely and if anyone is interested in doing a randomized prospective trial i would be very happy to provide the the buddies for a kema tactic trigger zone or a dental bite wing. Study because i really think that that's got some exciting potential to it. How can i contact. Information is a baxter at pink your labs dot com and we are at paintcare dot com and the buzzes can be purchased at shop. Got pink your labs dot com very easy awesome awesome. Don't be surprised. I mean this is a pretty large audience. I wouldn't be surprised if you got somebody that might be interested in doing one of those studies for you but in the meantime thank you so much. I think i'm gonna go out and get a couple of those buses and try him out. Well please do give me your feedback and others anyway. We can improve it. Or if i can link to the meta analysis that is for dental products. It would be very happy to do so awesome awesome. Okay we'll have a wonderful day. Dr baxter thanks again for being here and hopefully we'll get to do this again someday soon. Mark it was a delight. All right ladies and gentlemen. Dr amy baxter. Ever dream about running a black belt level dental practice about becoming the kind of leader that inspires the team to create a systemized orderly and profitable practice. Free of unnecessary stress and drama. What if you could practice clinical dentistry on your terms or quit completely goes to do so without a decrease in your standard of living if this sounds like nothing more than a fantasy i assure you it's not and we've watched the scenario play out time and time again inside the elite practice mastermind group. But this isn't just any run of the mill coaching and consulting group. We have no desire to be the in fact. Growth beyond a certain point would decrease the effectiveness and value of our membership. So we only work with dentists that possess an abundance mindset and share similar values are hummel and coach and take one hundred percent ownership for the results that they're getting in their personal and professional lives. So if you feel like it's finally time to discover the limits of your potential and would like to apply for a spot inside of our special community just go to true dental success dot com and hit the connect with mark now icon. You put in the time and the effort. You made the sacrifices. Isn't it time you took control of your future true. Dental success dot com connect with mark now and that wraps it up for another episode of the dental poor. Podcast look for to reconnecting on the next episode. Thank you so much for joining us today. On the dental noor podcast check out true. Dental success dot com for full recap of every show a schedule of our live events free video tutorials and a whole host of practice building resources.

Dr baxter dr patel costas Twenty third front office acad mike mccallum dr sommer caz mel Addison colleen dsl co Mike loma erica aguilar ashley evans national children's health fou Dr amy baxter atlanta Dr mark kostas kelo dr marcos
Marijuana Now

The Pulse

48:52 min | 2 years ago

Marijuana Now

"Support for this podcast comes from Wells Fargo, which donated more than nine million dollars to Pennsylvania nonprofits last year, including the enterprise centre to help grow local divers owned small businesses. More at stories dot W, F dot com slash Pennsylvania. Supporting WHYY Penn Orthopaedics with advanced treatments for hip and knee arthritis and a personal patient. Navigation team the Penn Orthopaedics approach to joint pain is designed to help get you back to enjoying life. Again. More at Penn medicine dot org slash joints. Major funding for the pulse is provided by a leadership gift from the Sutherland family charitable fund. The Sutherland support WHYY and its commitment to the production of programs that improve our quality of life. This is the pulse stories about the people and places at heartfelt and science, I Mike and Scott the small town of Hanes Alaska is a popular destination for cruise ships tourists. Love the views of snow covered mountain, peaks and sparkling blue waters. You can spot bears eagles and moose and last year. The town added a new attraction a shop called winter greens. Inside the walls are painted bright green and the shelves are lined with bonds and buds winter greens is marijuana store customers or picking out pre rolled joints much like you. Choose lunch meat at the deli counter. Nocco Poku goal. In a sugar Mongolia. Recreational marijuana has been legal in Alaska for a few years now, but the customers here say they're still adjusting to this new normal. People were totally against my. I mean, it was dead wrong. I got Trump when nineteen eighty over marijuana. That's Jeff Taylor. He says marijuana helps him control pain another customer carry kinison agrees. It's seen as a medicinal product. Now, which I think is great and people don't have to hide. And you know, you gotta pain you can go take care of it. Now and natural homeopathic way. Think about it. That's a pretty stunning transformation from being seen as dangerous substance. It's a fact pot hurt to benign healing potion times of change greatly till now, it's unbelievable. The change. And with all of this have come new issues states are sorting out their legal approach to marijuana dispensaries are opening up all over the country. Some researchers are worried that we are underestimating the potential harm marijuana could do society has jumped very very very far ahead of science on today's episode will look into marijuana and the new normal and some of the questions that are popping up along the way. Let's start with medical marijuana, which is now legal in thirty four of the fifty states. What does the move from illicit substance to legit treatment looked like on the ground list tongue? Went to find out in Philadelphia. Word dispensaries are still pretty new. I'm standing on the sidewalk in front of beyond too low. It's one of the most popular marijuana dispensaries and from the outside. It looks kind of like an upscale spa like frosted glass. Storefront really easy to miss. It's supposed to be my introduction to this shiny new world of medical marijuana goes waiting. Over except for one problem. Do you? Do you have to have your ID or something to? Medical marijuana cartoon a dispensary. I'm not allowed inside despite a very gracious invitation from beyond Hello. The Pennsylvania department of health says that no one without a medical marijuana card, including journalists is allowed inside dispensaries. I get it. This is all new stuff. They're still figuring out access. So a scrap my dispensary plan and decide to go for the next best thing, you're at Filiasi. This is the Philadelphia Tempur Pedic cannabis is a culmination of many years of thoughts and kind of hopes that's Patrick Duff. He's the co owner affiliated see it's a kind of combination head shop and cafe that caters to people who use medical marijuana to be clear. Philly TC doesn't sell cannabis. They don't dispense it for medical or any other purposes as co owner, Raymond Bunga says more of patients consumption lounge and CBD consumption lounge and and Sacramento holy place for for the use of cannabis as a. A Sacramento and or medicine customers can do that sitting at one of their diner? Style booths that they have in the back either using their own setups or the shops vaporisers until they called rigs. This is a kind of a tall one that I like to use to vaporize the rake resembles a small sleek water Bong except that instead of a lighter Patrick's using what he calls an herb iron. It's like a pen with a heated ceramic, and I'm gonna use that tip to kind of just dance on the top of this. So I don't really fully ignite it like lighter woods. So there's no real combustion in Pennsylvania. You're technically not supposed to smoke medical marijuana because of the health risks. You're supposed to keep it. Which is what Patrick is demonstrating right now. So that was. Patrick and Riemann open the shop a few months back. They operated out of three room storefront that sits between kind of gentrified hipster neighborhood and Kensington the struggling area that as reman points out is best known as the heart of Philadelphia's opioid epidemic, Ohio. I'm happy to be a part of the change and just bring in better vibes to this neighborhood. It's the only establishment of its kind in the area and kind of the perfect embodiment of where things are right now with medical marijuana, which is to say in the gray in between. It's not exactly legal in the sense that establishments. Like, this are so new they aren't yet regulated. But it's not illegal either. It's out in the open. They have a sign out on the sidewalk. But it also offers privacy a safe space for people who can't consume at home because they have kids or because they live in government subsidized housing, and then they're the owners themselves. Raymond loves talk. About counter cultural heroes who helped advance our understanding of cannabis when it wasn't legal. Well, Patrick spent years out in LA running other cannabis churches places that he says basically acted like underground dispensaries. An even got busted by the authorities. If you times, but both of them are also very much invested in medical marijuana, shiny new completely establishment future all of which puts Philly teach seat in a unique position as a link between marijuana's past and its future. We provide a different service than anybody else provide right now. And what is that service? How would you define educational service number one showing people how they can sign up to be a patient. But more importantly once they become a patient. They can come in here and ask questions about the medicine. They're like the spirit guide for all these brand new medical marijuana patients. Many of whom started out having no idea what they were doing. They actually helped me a lot of learned a lot even from coming here. Megan M is one of. They're regulars. She asked that we only use her first name because of the stigma against marijuana Megan's in her late thirties, just long hair and a wooden cane and she sitting in one of the booth here showing me what she's learned this is a rig this is a traditional rig. So you put the product in the slope here, you only need about the size of a green of rice get that in there. So that it melts. And. That that's pretty much it. That's that's how you medicate. This has become a daily routine for Meghan. She got her medical marijuana card a little over a year ago. And she says it's changed her life for the better after five years of pain and struggle, it all started back in twenty thirteen Meghan was thirty three and working at a corporate supply for a large energy company had recently bought her own home own all life was good. And and exactly where I thought it would be at that time. But in January twenty thirteen Meghan got sick the flu. And in a kind of freak medical occurrence the flu virus attacked her heart causing her to suffer three strokes Megan's life was saved, but she spent months in and out of the hospital and another year recovery and basic life functions. I had to through you know, therapies and exercises. Retrain, my body how to pretty much do everything again, right again, walk again, you know, different. You know through occupational therapy, different tasks. Home. Even you know, maintaining yourself in the daily activities of life. Megan had hoped that once she recovered, those basic functions should be able to go back to work. But there was an even bigger problem damage to our nervous system, which resulted in ongoing and unbearable pain. My understanding of is that my brain is just constantly sending pain signals out. And it's because it's basically got fried rain gets a little bit. So I feel pain. It's just stiffness. It's just aching pain. It's burning. It's kind of unbearable to like, you don't even want move Megan's. Doctors ended up prescribing various opioids to treat the pain. They did the job. But Megan hated the side effects. She felt like the opioids clouded her thinking the affected her sleep and her mood. But there was no alternative until February twenty eighteen when medical marijuana I became accessible to patients like Megan by this time Megan had been on painkillers for five years. And she was more than ready for a change again. When you're kind of stuck in the rut frustrated, you want to try anything and everything, you know, seeing people being able to either completely get off some of these narcotics, or at least decrease the amount they need that was something. I was highly interested in it so Meghan gave it a shot. She got her medical marijuana certification. And then she headed out to a dispensary. She's gone to a few of them now. And she says it really does kind of feel like going to a pharmacy with one key difference since this is still federally illegal. It cannot be technically prescribed. So it's recommended by a physician that's a mandate coats. He's a pharmacist at the dispensary beyond too low before that she spent ten years as a conventional pharmacist a switch, which by the way, she says required. Shockingly little training will also with this program. We have to four hour course to get your training certificates to become a practitioner within the medical marijuana program. Anyway, as a pharmacist Amanda has lots of experience working with patients, which is good because she says a big part of her job is walking new patients through their options. Like as a pharmacist a lot of the patients that are coming to me have never even tried cannabis in the past. So we're starting with cannabis patients. It's her job to help them figure out which stream to take. And how often what are they should vape or tinctures capsules end, of course, their dosage it's a little bit about what their comfort level is starting low and slow is like our mantra, Amanda says it's really important for dispensary staff to get to know their patients because unlike with other drugs, she can't just look up some study about how ex tincture affects pain related to Huntington's because a lot of those studies haven't happened yet. She has to take into account the disease the profile of different marijuana, strains the form they're taking along with patients using credit concerns. For example, Amanda says a lot of patients don't wanna get high. They see you for you. Is a very unwanted side effect. We're trying to get in that sweet spot where they're getting symptom relief, but they're not really feeling about euphoric feeling, but striking that balance can be tough for patients. Like, megan. She says for her controlling her chronic pain was a matter of trial and error, for example. She started out vaping the cannabis flower itself. Now, she uses a couple different concentrates essence of cannabis if you will which she says works a lot better. They feel later and the leaf affects remediate more media than any other form for me months. Leader Meghan says she's mostly fine tuned her approach which concentrate she uses and how often dosage and how to balance it with other meds. But it still isn't 'perfect. She's still experiences pain and still has to take opioids una pretty regular basis, and she still isn't comfortable using medical marijuana out in the open. The stigma is real I am own experience. That is just kind of better to be. A pick and choose. So you know, when when and where to share she says, she plans on keeping it that way at least for a while until going to the dispensary is open and easy as a trip to the pharmacy. That was Liz tongue reporting. And I was surprised by something the pharmacist in the dispensary said that it took only four hours of additional training to get this new job at doesn't seem like a whole lot right to work with marijuana exclusively to discuss with people what strands to use for what? And that got me thinking about healthcare professionals in general, you know, when you go to your doctor's office or the hospital. They'll usually ask you about marijuana use because maybe it could interact with medicines, you're taking or cost health issues. And I'm sure sometimes patients will want to ask their physicians about medical marijuana. How much do doctors really know about this? I I went to medical school not that long ago. And I don't know if I fell asleep during his class or they just breezed through it. But I actually really don't have a good understanding of how marijuana. To work, that's emergency room, physician and regular pulse. Contributor, Avia Meacham. He wanted to get a better sense of what THC and CBD do in our bodies. He went to visit Margaret Haney. She is marijuana researcher. What I often say is this is an old old drug, but a new science. She's also a professor of neurobiology at Columbia University. It's not surprising to me, you haven't learned a lot about it. I think in medical school. They don't teach a lot about substance use disorders in general, let alone their neurobiology lemme start then from the beginning someone lights a joint takes a hit. What happened? So smoking is a very very effective drug delivery system. The the chemicals in the plant get go goes through the lungs directly to the brain. Okay, in what are these chemicals? Exactly. We know there's a hundred or so chemicals in the cannabis plant that are unique to the cannabis plant there called collaborates, and we understand one of them delta nine THC fairly well because delta ninety h c is the chemical that really produces the classic marijuana affects scientists call it delta nine THC, but most of us just call it THC. That's what defines potency, you know, when you're trying to buy the most potent marijuana, you want the highest level of delta nine THC. And that's how it's described now in order for this THC to have an effect inside you it has to attach to receptors that are patiently waiting in your brain they discovered in the nineties this receptor canal receptor just a protein in the brain. And it's everywhere in the brain the cabin receptor also called the CB receptor is like a lock THC. Is the key and the door that's opened. Well, that's the high the alteration in sensory experience changes in time perception, the munchies the intoxicating all of that does that mean that our brains are wired to receive marijuana or I asking this in a weird way. But but why do we have these can yourself? Why do we have these receptors for canal, which are from a plant? You know, like most drugs of abuse that the the drugs, we abuse mimic, the chemicals in our brain already. And so there are chemicals liked THC that our body produces and play an important role in brain development in brain function. And so just by happenstance, delta nineteen in the plant also binds to that senior center. So it's so what sei sampling all these different plants over over millennia. We've discovered the ones that can kind of trick our brain. It turns out we make our own Endo cabinets chemicals that bind to those Kavanag receptors their purposes still. Kind of a mystery. But they may be involved in modulating stress, memory and pain. All right. So delta THC a K THC. That's something that we've known about since the nineties, but to me, it's only recently that I've been hearing about CBD's, what are CBD's can dial is another cannabinoid president in the cannabis plant very very different than delta. Ninety eight see at doesn't bind to the same receptor. Its mechanism of action is is pretty poorly. Understood so far, it's not getting you high and there's been great hope in its medical potential. There is now an FDA approved form of canal dial for severe forms of childhood epilepsy. For example, CBD or canal? Dial is everywhere. Now, you can buy oil at the corner store, and you can eat it. You can use it in your cooking or on your skin people use it for anxiety pain, or lifting your mood. But there's almost no scientific evidence behind any of this. There are other areas that are very very, exciting and intriguing. To study for Kappa. Dial, but society has jumped very very much very far ahead of science. So cannot be dial has promised for certain indications, but the data is very sparse. And it's been hard to do carefully controlled studies. So as a scientist, it's very distressing to for me to see how ubiquitous it is throughout the country, and how people are using it in all different forms and shapes and doses, basically, just the wild west, right? It is. And it's it's it's worse than that in that in lieu of data. It's really marketers and people selling Cabot I'll making money from it that at our informing the public about its its effects, it's medical benefit. And that's that's not good for anyone. I guess is what happens when you listen to Facebook too. You told me about THC and CBD are there other compounds that are like actively doing things to us when when we smoke it. So that it we don't know of the one hundred or so canal. We know a decent amount about THC a teeny bit about CBD. And as for all the rest, we don't now. And the reality is most of them are in VR. There's there there in low concentrations in the plants that people have been smoking for a long time. But there is the potential right there. These other compounds may do amazing things or they may do terrible things. We just don't know. The problem is even though some states have legalized marijuana. It's still federally classified as a schedule. One drug. That's the designation given to the most unsafe drugs known to man that designation makes it really hard for scientists to get their hands on it. So I can get at the Bodega. But if I want to study, you can't do I can't get it that was emergency room physician of Metra on a quest to learn. Learn more about THC and CBD we're talking about the new normal with marijuana smoking weed is becoming more and more accepted in a no big deal. Kind of way. Nick, Missy a self-described pothead says that way of looking at we'd no longer works for him this drummers grove in prospect park in Brooklyn, New York. It's right by my house now used to come here lot. But when I quit smoking, we've started to stay away drum circles pot are frequent companions. But here's the thing about this city. We'd is everywhere. I smell it all the time. And sometimes it's no big deal. But other times, it's really triggering. See? I'm an addict a pothead addicted to weed you might not take that seriously. But I'm going to make the case that you should a quick recap had a big heartbreak in school. We'd helped dropped out of college. We helped arrested for dealing smoked before court. Got a slap on the wrist celebrated with joint crashed my car broke my neck toss the weed right out the window. None of that made me want to quit that came years later one day. I just noticed. I was paranoid. All the time. Rushing home every night after work to smoke alone. But when I tried to stop I couldn't cold Turkey. Didn't work therapy didn't help neither did antidepressants. And every time I thought about checking out a recovery program. I think of half baked that cults donor flick starring comedian, Dave Chapelle, his character is a pothead, and he tries to quit smoking to my name is Thurgood. He standing on a stage addressing all the other addicts. I'm here today because I'm a dictated to marijuana. Marijuana. Marijuana's is not a drug food this, man. Home. Larry's, but some experts aren't laughing anymore climate. I'm a policy analyst by training. Mark works at New York University. He's written a few books on marijuana policy in the United States. How many people like me are there? How many people are there? Do we know that dentistry has potheads who wanna stop something like four million, man? Yeah. Looks like about a third of the people who use every day or almost every day meet the diagnostic criteria. Forget it was used as order the criteria. According to Mark trying to cut back in failing. At it. Knowing marijuana is messing with your life goals and still getting high all the same. He says there's a growing number of people in the US like me people who wanna cut down or stop altogether. He thinks maybe it's because the weed itself is more potent these days anything less than fifteen percent THC is a rip off the back in the nineteen seventies. It was three to six percent THC harder to get addicted to less dangerous certain dangerous compared to uncle the drugs changed. In the meantime, do you think? We ever underestimated. The issue of problem users when we started examining issues around legalization. I don't know. But we sure noted he says about thirty years ago when they looked at people who had used marijuana in the past month. Only eleven percent of them were daily users today Mark says that number is more like thirty five percent again about a third of them report. The symptoms of cannabis users order and those heavy users account for about eighty five percent of the week consumes one of these things that I encounter all the time are people who like to tell me that. I can't be an addict, what do I say to these people? I mean, I know what I'd say them. But I can't say on the air. I talked to Dr J Michael Bostick. He's a professor of psychiatry at the mayo clinic who specializes in addiction counseling, I told him the same thing. How people like to tell me that I couldn't possibly be addicted to weed that that is complete garbage. But again, if you go with the definition that there's a problem as a result of you use whether you're meeting your goals is the family member or as a. Apparent or as a spouse as an adult or whether potential your substance uses interfering with your progress. And it doesn't much matter. What other people say? So I tell him about how I started breaking promises to myself smoking earlier and earlier every day, for example, since it is psychoactive, I would say that you probably liked the way that it made you feel and on one level wanted to feel that way all the time. But on the other level may have felt I don't know you'll have to speak to this uncomfortable when you weren't high when you got up in the morning, I did feel that way. And as it went on I began to feel more and more uncomfortable all the time, and you probably increased your the amount that you were taking in. I sure did which is almost an exact description of any kind of addictive substance or practice. Anyway, that's how smoking everyday me feel, but I also wanted to know what it was doing to my brain. So for that I reached out to Dr Susan Weiss. A psychologist and senior science adviser at the National Institute of drug abuse. Hannah-beth is a very interesting drug because there is an entire signaling system called the Endo cabinet system. She told me the system goes through different parts of your brain and body. There's a hit the campus which is an area of the brain that's important for memory. And we know that marijuana impairs memory. There's also court ical areas which have to do with judgment and sensory areas. So people may find that things taste different or better. I didn't know it. But I was with this system multiple times a day. And when you do that if you do it repeatedly, then the system itself will start to down regulate, which means it starts to become less sensitive. And so you're you're affecting some of the normal physiological processes that this system is involved in and that's how addiction starts to develop. So these experts all tell me that the addiction can be real. But at the same time legalization is on the March, Washington, Colorado, California and many. More on the horizon. So I thought it would be good to talk to some guys in the field. Who argue for legalisation. I expected them to be like, hey, man. Calm down. Relax. It's a plant. But what they said surprised me normal not here can make the case that cannabis is on the harmless or innocuous because it isn't that's Paul Armand Tano, and he's the deputy director of normal appro legalisation group fact is if we are going to acknowledge that cannabis poses some potential risks. Then it only follows that those risks are best mitigated by legalisation regulation in public education in Paul's view. It's not that we'd is harmless. It's that jailing people for it is a lot more harmful, especially when the laws are used to put away people of color at a disproportionate rate. So Paul says, let's legalize it stopped the mass incarceration. And then we can focus on responsible public policy to address the risks. In the meantime, what are you supposed to do? If you like me, let me tell you how I quit. I finally found a support group for people like me people addicted to marijuana back in two thousand fourteen and nobody tried to tell me that we'd wasn't a drug or that. I wasn't an addict. Instead, I heard stories like mine smoking pot was. The one nice thing in my horrible life, and I had smoked and then I'd be super depressed and super anxious. I hear these success stories, and I wanted that for myself when you wake up in the morning, you know, for sure that you're not going to have to depend on something that will surely run out to be happy. I feel brave now I feel confident I still listen to stories like these I share mind to sharing listening. It all helps me stay sober. I don't know if this will help you or not I just want you to know there are people out here who take this seriously that aren't going to boo you, I know I won't. That was Nick Mercedes' telling us his story of quitting marijuana. Nick says we'd is everywhere. It's a way of life. There's a whole culture bonded. It's about community. And our next story speaks to that aspect. Here's Randy Scott Carroll with more. I'm in west Philly in a big mansion style row home. There's a million crowd of young people in live music in the basement. Mostly Philly rap. Someone's home. But I'm not sure who's I'm here to meet up with edibles maker Vicky who's here for an underground vegan. We'd event. When I arrived. The air is thick with that distinctive smell upstairs. Their vendors with tables filled with baked goods candies infused drinks, Mason jars full of fresh blood in all sorts of pre rolled joints. Vicki is selling her strawberry. Irish Sea must ice cream with a blue Burien fig sauce and a black bean, brownie crumble, all vegan in all infused with wheat. I I really enjoyed the feedback. When that after the event speaking I catch up by her car didn't as soon as they put it in mouth, they blue eyes lit up, and that makes me happy is that I light up. So it was great joy in it. Vicky whose business is off the grid asked me not to use her last. Name her usual clientele is more of an older crowd. She says they love the idea of relaxing without having to smoke. And so what she really loves this cooking full meals with cannabis oils out lakey, some soup out poison t just come spend a little time with me. That's all I'm asking. She invites me to replace to see how she makes her infused oils butter and tinctures in where she's turned his love of cooking into a healthy side. Also client stop by sit down. Enjoy some conversation and have a good meal and people pay twenty five thirty dollars a plate. I want to eat in dull healthy seasonal meal on want my food to taste like the season. You know, I want butternut squash soup with some kale in some came on. And I wouldn't mind having the aroma of a lovely. Kush come off that. The key is fifty years old with short hair, dyed gold in radiates, this inviting energy is she welcomes me into the kitchen. So I put an ounce about plus some other love bonuses in there to get things started. She tosses a bowl of fresh lead straight into this sort of crock pot looking thing on her countertop along with unrefined. Coconut oil. I don't have to do any work with this wonderful little device. It's called the magical butter machine it grind, stirs heats and chops infusing everything with just the press of a few buttons. It's literally called magical butter. About an hour later with adjoining their hand, the key scoops out the oil with a spatula scrapes it into the strain or smell nice. Well, it's sweet. Yeah. It just most like cleaner like it, smells like cleaners. Some of the residue from the we'd gets through this trainer. But she says she kind of likes that. I like it. Because when I cook when regular foods that gets in there kinda just use it as what do you call this stuff seasoning? So it blends in seasoning. I'm many Vicky says we'd was always an accepted part of her life growing up her father made a jug of tincture that he stored under the bed. Herodotus would also indulge. If only picnics Vicky says, she was always drawn to that side of the party. Everyone was laughing and chuckling, but that's what made the barbecue better. You know? That's what made the barbecue. Petr? I don't ever remember not being around in. Just remember my today. Vicky says her infused oils edibles are wave continuing the same sense of community from her younger days. It's never really been about the money. You know, if someone is hungry, they're in a little discomfort and pain, I can feed you and make you feel good. Vicky says everyone is welcome in her kitchen because we need some place just to take a break just the minute. I just need a minute IMP. Asides? Aren't we all special enough that somebody should take care of us? Like that for a moment. Like come on. That story was reported by Randy Scott Carroll. We're talking about the new normal when it comes to marijuana. Our attitudes of changed. The law has changed in many states. There are so many new questions and issues that are coming up, for example is cannabis safe during pregnancy. Michelle Illinois spoke with women about this in Los Angeles. Where marijuana is legal across the board. Let's start with the perspective from the medical community, which is pretty unequivocal don't vape. It don't smoke. It don't dab it. And don't eat it. That's the message from too big. Doctor's groups, the academy of pediatrics and the college of obstetricians and gynecologists they say there's just not enough data on how cannabis effects a developing child's brain clinical psychologist, Kelly young wolf does that kind of research. There hasn't been any evidence yet that indicates marijuana use in pregnancy is safe Kelly's research shows that despite the messaging from the medical world more women in California are opting to use marijuana. Anyway over. Over a seven-year period. The number of moms to be who tested positive for cannabis nearly doubled from four to seven percent. The rate was closer to twenty percent among younger moms, and this was before the state legalized recreational sales. We do know that perceived approval marijuana's increasing that people's perception of the risks associated marijuana are decreasing and this is true, particularly among young people, given how easy it is to get marijuana. These days Kelly says doctors should do more to warn their patients of the potential risks. The American Academy of pediatrics says research increasingly suggests smoking marijuana can affect how a baby's brain develops using during pregnancy has been tied to lower birth weights and could hinder skills that kids develop later in life like the ability to concentrate and control their impulses. But some women say they also have complications with their health to think about imagine throwing up. As many as four times a day in your first trimester. I would be driving, and I was just vomit out the window and hit a stop sign. Yeah. Vomit out the window keepdriving that's thirty three year old from Los Angeles. She asked us not to use her name because there's still a stigma around this issue and marijuana is illegal at the federal level. She planned to quit using cannabis when she found out she was pregnant, I stopped doing everything everything that I was putting into my body. I was thinking about my kid, but she was losing weight not sleeping and feeling stressed in worried. She was hurting her baby because she couldn't keep any food down. She went online found some of the same. Studies about marijuana that show risks for kids later in life. But decided there was some wiggle room. In some of those studies, researchers didn't control from others who were also using alcohol or smoking or the results were based on a small group of women she occasionally while she was pregnant. Her baby was born healthy and hasn't had any problems looking back on her pregnancy. This woman said she felt like she was on her own to figure out how to cope with her symptoms because she didn't connect with her doctor. I don't know. I just felt like she didn't hear me. I felt like she her concerns were medical. And so her mindset was what can we do to solve this medically where as I? Am a whole person with a life. And I felt like she had blinders on obstetrician Lena Nathan says she wants to be a listening ear. She seeing more pregnant women who are considering cannabis. The most common reason I see that women want to use marijuana during pregnancies for nausea or issues with appetite especially in the first trimester Lena is with university of California, Los Angeles health. She says patients ask her questions about the safety of edibles, CBD lotions and all sorts of other products Californians can buy now, she says current research hasn't even taken into account the higher potency levels. We're seeing now or the different ways people can ingest cannabis in the absence of solid data. Lena says she has to tell her patients to stay away from it all to be honest. Most patients will still continue it by me telling them that. But I think they're so miserable that they're looking for anything that can help them feel a little better. But while dot. Doctors are telling their patients to abstain a lot of women are turning to each other for advice both in person and on social media. Another woman I spoke with lives in West Hollywood. I'm calling her S for her first initial she recently gave birth to her second child s runs an anonymous Instagram account where she writes about cannabis and being a mom, her posts, usually get hundreds of likes and comments. There's so many women who have sent me direct messages in who have emailed me and told me that late. I smoked weed for like, both my pregnancies and my kids are join just fine and they're seven and nine now while that's not clinical research for these women. It's a community where they don't feel judged for me. It's just like, well, why would you lie about that? Because like, I wouldn't tell anybody that especially if you're not in a state, whereas legal be uncertainty around the galaxy makes research and answering safety questions hard Daniel Piomelli as a professor at university of California Irvine and directs the school. New center for the study of cannabis. I think what we need to understand is if there is a level above which kind of is becomes seriously problematic and the result before which kind of is still not problematic. Danielle says to be clear he also wouldn't recommend that women used any kind of marijuana while pregnant or breastfeeding, but he also says researchers like him have a duty to find out if women are going to use are there, safer ways. Those are questions he hopes to answer. This is a harm reduction aptitude that I think has really lacked in the past because what prevailed in still I think a little bit psychologically prevails is the idea of say no Danielle says any definitive answers are still potentially decades away. That's Michelle Loy. She's a reporter at KCRW. Her story was produced as a project for the USC Annenberg center for health journalism twenty eighteen California. Fellowship. We're talking about marijuana all of the new questions and issues that are popping up as attitudes and laws are changing at a rapid pace. I think there are some idea out there that because we're legalizing it. It means that it faith when we we really don't know. That's the case. That's Karen Wilson. She's a professor of pediatrics at the Icahn school of medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City. She's been researching the health impacts of secondhand tobacco smoke on children for years. We noticed that more and more parents were saying, oh, no, I don't smoke tobacco anymore just marijuana because it's natural. And at that point, we all realize that marijuana was becoming normalized even more so than tobacco, and we are quite concerned that as we moved into legalization that would mean that more children would be exposed to second hand marijuana smoke. Karen says at this point we still don't know very much about the health impacts of second hand marijuana smoke on chill. Children does it irritate their lungs. Could it affect issues like asthma in one study? She found almost half of children whose parents smoke marijuana tested positive for lower levels of THC and some of those kids would have tested positive in a drug test. And what does that mean does that mean that they felt the psychoactive effects of marijuana? Or does it just mean that they were in the presence of it? It just means they were in the presence of it. We really don't know anything about how they are experiencing this. We don't know if children are more susceptible to the influences, or maybe they're less susceptible to the influences. There is no data on that part of what has made this difficult is that in many cases being exposed to marijuana smoke is still reportable to child protective services, and so doing research and being able to identify families where this is occurring can. Can be really problematic and in all of the cases when we've studied this. We've done this anonymously. So we can't go back and link those results with any specific patient, which makes it much much harder to do the kind of long term follow up studies that we would need to do to be able to understand the true effects of this children. Karen Wilson is a professor of pediatrics at the Icahn school of medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City. Medical marijuana is becoming so much more available, but many of the ground rules are still unclear who benefits from it who should take it. And for what does it have a role at all in pediatrics back in two thousand nine Marie Myung Oakley noticed a change in her son. He has autism and his tantrums suddenly started to escalate after he turned nine he was having a lot of violence. He was hitting people. He was hitting himself. He would be destructive in her house. He destroyed a lot of things, you know, towel bars were bent walls had dents in. And he also most disturbingly started to eat his clothing. This is an eating disorder called pica where people eat things that are not food. Jason's paiko was so severe. That he would eat basically his entire shirt on his bus, ride home. So by the time, he got home he would come off the bus bare-chested, and that also caused more digestive problems. And then he wasn't eating his much in that attitude. This behavioral spiral Jason was also aggressive at school biting spitting headbutting somedays, his teachers counted three hundred aggressions he is mostly non verbal so marine knew that talk therapy was not an option for her son. She consulted Jason's doctor looked into all kinds of medication options and their side effects. And then she started to think about cannabis that with cannabis maybe we could do a bunch of things at once, you know, he had anxiety. He had sensory overload. He might have got pain. A lot of times when he would do very extreme self harm like hitting his head on our cast, iron bathtub. I just felt really it wasn't a behavior. I just felt instinctively that he was a lot of pain. And I kind of felt if I was in a lot of pain, and no one was helping me what would I do? And I almost felt like this is what I would do, you know, I would try to hurt someone to get their tension or add hurt myself to distract myself. But Maria was still not a hundred percent convinced that this was the right way to go. I was thinking how crazy this seemed at the time. Also, you know working as a professor and trying to be apparent in. Here. I'm contemplating giving my son marijuana. She talked to medical marijuana patients worked with Jason's doctor and eventually Jason became the youngest person in Rhode Island registered in the states medical marijuana program, but Maria still needed to figure out the best drain. She experiment. Rented trying different kinds making cookies and tinctures the first time he had any kind of cannabis he stopped eating his clothes. So that was one of the sort of big shots in the arm. We got right away that was very motivating to try to continue and figure out like how do we do this eventually after about a year of trial and error? They landed on a strand called white Russian. It's a favourite with cancer patients with extreme pain. And there was something about Jason system that came into balance because it wasn't as you have. He was high at all it was just he suddenly wasn't in pain, and we hadn't seen him smiling for at least a year. And so suddenly he's smiling. Again, he was finally able to learn to ride a bike. Jason started doing better in school his aggressions went way down, but he's still struggled during mealtimes. He would throw his food around when we were probably about six. Six months into our cannabis journey. I decided I was going to try to give him this Korean soup that used to love, and it's called ten John to get Marie was worried that Jason fling the bowl across the room. But she wanted to give him a chance. She left the kitchen and let Jason eat his soup by himself. My husband, and I were kind of huddling waiting, and we just heard little ding ding, ding noises from his spoon hitting the ball. And then we heard just some weird other clattering noises water we didn't kind of understand what was going on. So then when he came out of the kitchen, we went in and saw that he'd not only eaten his soup, but he'd rinsed his pole, and he put the ball in the dishwasher, and this this entire time. We were realizing, you know, we've never had him do that or shown him. How this is what you do after you eat. But that even in his worst times when he was having tantrums. He must have seen. That's what you do when you're done eating. And I have to say that was one of the highlights of being a parent seeing how wonderful was that. He has been observing us all this time and had and does want to be helpful in that moment. I just felt so much that I was seeing my son and that he loves me. And that he he wanted to clean up after sort of show me, look, mommy, I know how to do this recess cannabis isn't a miracle cure. But it did help balance Roussin than a way that allowed him to function better Jason is nineteen now and cannabis isn't as central to his therapies anymore. But Marie says he's still overall a happy kid. That's our show for this week the pulses of production of WHYY in Philadelphia. Our health and science reporters are Allen you Liz tongue jet sleigh meant and Steph yen. We had production assistance from Julian Harris and Claire struggle from K H NS in Haines, Alaska. Charlie Kyler is our engineer Lindsey Lazar ski is our producer. I'm Tanya English is our editorial director, I'm Mike and Scott. Thank you for listening. Behavioral health reporting on the pulse is supported by the Thomas, scattered good behavioral health foundation, an organization that is committed to thinking doing and supporting innovative approaches in integrated healthcare WHYY's health and science reporting is supported by generous grant from public health management corporations public health fund, P H M gladly supports WHYY and its commitment to the production of services that improve our quality of life.

marijuana cannabis Randy Scott Carroll Philadelphia Pennsylvania professor Megan M California Meghan Raymond Bunga Alaska Patrick Duff knee arthritis Pennsylvania department of hea Filiasi Philly Vicky WHYY Mark Penn Orthopaedics
Drug Use and Abuse - The Pandemic Within the Pandemic: Sidebar Part 2

Say What Needs Saying

44:45 min | 7 months ago

Drug Use and Abuse - The Pandemic Within the Pandemic: Sidebar Part 2

"At. least. Will perspective. The cases at least increase in the Columbus area I worked for several hospitals in the Columbus area and surgeon the surgeon Dr the doctor saying at least ninety percent of the people here are vitamin D deficient. There's so many links to a level of improvement that they see when people have been taking vitamin D. at least I don't have the background that you guys have them regardless addictions of that or from the hospital perspective is understated how many people are coming in overdosing constantly and the needing some type of treatment and their levels of deficiency whether it be from not probably gonNA nutrients are. I heard actually heard a lot of people saying they can't eat the way they used to because they don't have enough money because they weren't given enough money. So they're used to just going out and getting whatever fast food they can quickly grab when those type when that you know that poor diet couples with health releases a room, the Kobe type of situation it just compounds the issues that would lead to a better outcome with an Oswal. If. You haven't heard about anchor. It's the easiest way to make a podcast. It's free. This creation suits that allow you to afford edit your podcast right from your phone or computer. Anchor also distribute your podcast for you. So it can be heard on spotify apple podcasts and many more. Money from. PODCAST. It's everything you need. In. The. Start. Actually. I to hop on real quick and just go off at that point that Scott made originally about seeking help and that was huge. That was the biggest step I could've taken because for the first year two of my sobriety I was just stubbornly independent I can do this myself with some of the coping mechanisms that we discussed exercise journaling, meditation, deep breathing. All those things were effective, but I felt like at a certain point. I was missing that last five or ten percent I'm thinking you gotTa, you gotTa reach out and talk to other people you know I didn't necessarily go the groups which you know I regret I'm still sober today almost six years but I wish I would have done things like that I still can but really just going to you know counseling found this really great a licensed social worker I went to talk to wit without divulging. Too much had a pretty bad break down towards the end of twenty sixteen miles in Grad school barely got through wasn't sleeping i. just think that was a culmination of me just really not taking care of myself. The first two years I basically gave up drink without really working on my cell fundamentally, you know to the core sauce basically dry and just doing anything about it. So I think that was huge that resonated with me. When Scott said you know really I need help is really like the three most important words you can say if you are suffering from whatever it is mental health issues drinking drug use and that you don't like the a little bit trickier with everything going on now. I'm really glad I was able to do that a couple of years ago. Instead of, let's say I, get to this point this year still haven't sought out any help. I'd have to get a little bit more creative this year to try to find that help see what kind of avenues I can you know travel down as far as who I could see kind of groups I join you know US whatever Internet. to my disposal but yeah, I mean that was just such a turning point for me in my recovery you know it would be a lot more challenging this year. If I was going through that process, you know Scott said earlier something about the stigma do you think that last five percent where you needed somebody else? Do you think the stigma kept you from seeking that initially? Yeah, I would definitely say so it's kind of just you know a ashamed of not being able to control by drinking because I have friends they can socially and I think Scott said something he's like you know I can't stand those people who can just a couple beers here and there and just and just leave it. You know that was never really my mentality or I guess how I was wired I. Don't know if that Kinda sounds cliche but I always thought you know. If. To feels good. You know it's GonNa feel better. So I mean once I got sober. I. Think you know that stigma definitely was there as far as seeing out that help. I, think it's also just me just like I said just being stubbornly independent that was a part of it but I also think there was a shame factor there as well. Just you know how people would react to me seeking help because I have chosen to give up drinking and now living sober so. Yeah I would definitely say that was a part of it. So I wanted to turn it over to you guys and see if there was anything that you thought in any big topics or aspects of this is pandemic within the pandemic that we haven't touched on. Yet we've covered on a lot of big topics, mental health suicide, -ality, and drug use general overdosing things like that but I don't know I just wanted to see if any of you had any thoughts on something that we haven't covered that you think need saying. I'd like to It's interesting. We're always we always seem to be looking to the government to fix stuff. This is one of those things. This is a health issue and I remember when the issue around cigarettes, I was a big cigarette smoker and I'm sure you all know this but you know the the finally surgeon general put that warning on cigarette packs I think it was the eighty s when that happened I'm not really Sure might have been, you know latest nineties but according to science I mean, the tobacco companies knew back in nineteen I think in the seventies that tobacco caused lung cancer the reason all this was being discussed a couple years ago is when when the argument about legalizing marijuana that the forecaster said that the marijuana issue in ten more years or so because there's no longitudinal studies yet around long term use of this, you know the. Powerful marijuana and we talked about vaping it today and with kids. But at the end of the day when you think about it, the sciences there but but we we still do what we do. So to me, it's the informed person who is hopefully going to make you know and I'm just listening to you guys. I'm irritated because now I'm frustrated that I have this on and you know what I'm trying to think about. What I'm GonNa do tomorrow morning I'm going to get up and walk just to spice off. You know because I think it's important and I don't need to call my doctor because if I call my doctor, I, know what they're going to tell me what you're not fruits vegetables. You promise this we have at the chart that like to keep my chart there because they think I'm a good example of what not to do to show. Show. The seniors when they come in but I think it's just. How do we inform people and I I don't think we've found a good way to do that yet and I. I'm working with the the board of Education I got a call last Sunday night. From a colleague of mine sits on the board and he says, Scott, we have a half a million kids going back to school tomorrow we really need your help and I'm like really it's nine o'clock on a Sunday night. You want help with a half a million kids anyway, and you know there's been so much focus on getting kids back into school and giving them that opportunity to socialize and have that you know and and the parents break. So they can get back to work. I mean it's it's a, is it a perfect storm earlier I don't know if that's even appropriate phrase anymore. So I just how do we inform people? That's that's one of the most you know just say, no to drugs that was worse campaign than we ever experienced and I think that we we have to find a better way and I say we I'm not even sure what that means because. I don't want to rely on government anymore I just I think that if the more we look to someone else to tell us what we should be doing the longer we're going to keep doing what we're doing and you know that definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results the stigma. For Me Scott, my belief is that the stigma where we need to start, we need to get rid of that stigma and Portugal did an amazing job of that. A lot of people use Portugal a lot of libertarians that I know like to talk about Portugal Oh they legalize drugs. No, they didn't actually but they did remove the stigma and they did get to a point where they focused more on the rehabilitation rather than the criminalization. And that's where we need to go. We've got to get rid of the stigma. We've gotta make it understandable to have an addiction to the mainstream once the mean stream. Once once the normal person recognizes that it can happen to any of us. Then it's no longer going to be a problem to seek help. It's not about putting out a just say no players or a just say no campaign I I actually bought into that growing up and for me it did make a difference I liked being a part of that but I was the nominally the truth. Is there the numbers are there? It never worked for the maintenance for the masses it didn't work. You're right Scott. But the fact is none of that is going to make a difference if somebody is over here on the corner saying I don't want anybody to know we need them to be able to say to be able to raise their hand and say, Hey, you know what? I think. I might actually have that problem that that everybody's talking about. Bryce finished story and what was the outcome in Portugal because I? It's funny. I was thinking about that earlier. But what was the outcome when they did that? I don't have the numbers in front of me. It was many years ago that I looked at it. But I do know that they had a tremendous success in changing the addiction to the point where people were rehabilitating and not just trying to go around the corner and hide the numbers I've read is they reduced substance use disorders by almost thirty percent. So if you think about that fifteen percent on our country and thirty percent, you know four and a half, almost five percent of five points that would be you know you're talking about. Five percent of the of the population. What is that? I? Don't know fifteen million, fifteen million less people that have the issue just based on that. You know this must that's wrong number but imagine if we could drop it by a point and so no, they were very successful and I've heard a lot of different people you know from scientists to the professors who studied this. That if we could do something like that, but what does it the US has something like four percent of the population on the planet and we consume something like seventy percent of the illicit drugs in the world. So that would be an interesting paradigm shift and I I would. I would venture to think that if we tried something like that, we would have we would have. To be prepared because the first couple of years people would take advantage of it. But at the end of the day I mean again I I ran a nonprofit I worked with people coming out of jail and prison probably close to seventy percent of the people who got arrested in our country in the last twenty years it was behind substance abuse whether the distribution of the Drug seeking over the consumption of and we have these people in prison who you know getting any help them. When they come out, they have the same needs when they went in the different is they suffered from a higher level of genetic thing. So I think our prison system starting to shift a little bit but you're the fact that we have some interesting controversy at leadership level. Right now in our country and we have a congressman coming onto our event. Next month soap, we call it society of addiction professionals and bring these people around because I, want them to hear from the providers. You know exactly what you just said. You know, what can you do to help us if nothing else and how can we help each other and disenfranchisement of legislative? Leaders, unless there's someone you know like was a Patrick Kennedy you know who's experienced it and I just on zoom call with the mayor of Boston who openly talked about his recovery and that's starting to happen. Now, we didn't see that ten years ago. You wouldn't see public figures and now all these movie stars Eminem just announced that he got twelve years and that was. On, social media and I can't remember some of the others that have come out recently, but it's it's it's starting but it's so slow. The the my opinions Japa- late the data over the next ten years it's GonNa. You know we may have maybe a half a one percent improvement but to me that would be tremendous when you look at our population, the Morbidity Rate But you're right the stigma. Unfortunately, he's gotta change for easily there was somebody just in the news the other night talking about you know that's ridiculous. Need to stop. You know it was that easy we would. It's an allergy I mean I can't drink because I'm allergic alcohol I. Think it's Robert Downey. Junior who says it best whatever I did cocaine I always broke out in handcuffs. I was hoping on this topic of normalizing it and increasing awareness and education on the effect that addiction isn't just solely a choice and isn't just something that what you can just stop and things like that can't I was hoping that you could give just a kind abroad brief overview of the brain side of addiction and the impacts that it has on your brain and why the rain model of addiction has come up in, is evidence based and fairly substantiated at this point. I think the brain model of addiction. The notion that addiction is a brain disease. It was really a notion that Alan Leshner championed about twenty five years ago when he was head of the National Institute of Drug Abuse in part to combat stigma in part to combat stigma near the notion that wasn't a moral failing taking drugs. But that were identifiable changes in the brain which there certainly are today there are some critics of the brain disease model who say that there's a stigma attached to happen brain disease, and so they would like to get rid of that idea for that reason. But that's that's another if we think of brain. Models of addiction. There's actually several models of addiction competing theories There's there's no question that taking drugs of abuse changes brain dopamine system suppresses dopamine receptors, and suppresses opiate receptors withdrawal basis in a the tolerance base. This is really a a big a big part of it, but that was the original brain disease model and and the problem with it is that it's clear that addiction doesn't go away. Withdraw goes away. If you stop taking drugs the grant many of the brain changes that accompany heavy use, they begin to recover many of those changes yet the addiction doesn't necessarily go away. So the debates today, there's arguments in addiction science. Whether it's to be thought of as a kind of a intensified habit because there are habit brain systems that. Drugs Act on the dorsal strident or whether it's thought should be thought instead of the kind of craving and our incentive sensitisation theory or is suggested that it was a kind of craving is a kind of craving that any of us could have for things like food if we were starved enough. But in addiction, the neural sensitization changes would create this starvation type appetite. Specifically for drugs and creates that same kind of situation that we would all be if we were starving and creating food if an addict can crave drugs in this way, then it creates a situation. I think that call for sympathy you know I think that's the hope in the brain disease model that does stigma could be replaced by kind of sympathy but there are debates. Yeah I think that it's definitely been a heated conversation for a long time about whether or not addiction is a disease and everything I. Remember when we had I'm blanking on what classes I think it was abnormal psychology, abnormal psychology, I, remember and. I think was Cognitive. Neuro. Yeah. It came up in both of those and I remember in especially in abnormal psychology they asked specifically, she pulled the class basically and ask you you think addiction is a disease or not, and it Kinda surprised me the number of students in the class that sided with it not being a disease and even after we discussed it at length in the class and you know and talked about both sides of it that there was still a a substantial segment of of the class that didn't agree. And I think that you see that a large scale in in the country right that these are people that even in a college psychology class, you see the split at imagine the general public. That's what is even larger will only to be fair to the Anti Brain disease, folks I. Mean there are there are legitimate arguments that they make such as that being an addict it's compulsive in the sense that can never be controlled. It is still subject to punishments incentives in such, but that's the nature of craving. It's that's the nature of compulsion I think Scott earlier suggested that addiction is a little bit like diabetes and I think that's a great analogy because that's a disease in which there's no holes in the brain there's no holes in the body type two diabetes. There's no lesions is not a disease in the sense of of damage to the body, but it's it's a is a disease in the sense that insulin resistance develops and. Crowd a couple of small parameters in physiological mechanism just get altered a little bit with devastating consequences and it can be partly dealt with by behavioral. Diet Control Means Addiction has a lot of these same similarities. We can identify brain parameters that are different and persistently different and that don't go away with withdrawal when withdrawal goes away if you don't take the drugs for a long, these changes still stay in and they have these kind of changes. The less just one less I. Once heard an argument in the courtyard of the Dalai Lama's monastery in the Himalayas. It had been a meeting on craving. It was an argument between norval call was the current director of the National Institutes of drug use and Mark Lewis who's a critique critique of critic of the Brain Disease Model And has written books and published many articles in New, York Times, and other papers around the world criticizing brain disease and mark was saying. Don't call it a brain disease. Why do you call brain disease these changes in the brain there so subtle, they're not holes in the brain. And Nora I think made a good a good counter replied that specific to the United States and our medical system for providing help and funds for I'm trying to and research into addiction. She said if it's not a brain disease congress isn't going to fund any kind of addiction research or addiction treatments and insurance companies. Medical insurance companies are not going to pay for any kind of treatment. If it's a disease, it becomes eligible for treatment in the American system, and that's is not a scientific point, but it's has a certain compelling quality to. When you look at the economic platform that we have in our country. That makes a lot of sense that do do you think it's a disease let's make a little bit of a political reversal on you since you're the expert here. So from what you've learned because he knows the surgeon general believes three years ago came out and said it. After decades of study and you know my attitude is it doesn't really matter but because it's a problem, let's help fix it I if it, you know look I my wife Likes Canterbury Milk. Chocolate bars. and. I watch what happens to her when I bring one home And you know if you were to eat a chocolate I mean we love sees to but now you have to get it delivered but you know this'll be a great time I'm just glad I don't act out on see's candy because I can imagine i. You know I be on camera it'd be awful. But if you eat chocolate every single day talked to people drink coffee. Hey, it's time for you to stop putting caffeine in your body what. You go through withdrawal. So I think that you know I. I I love the conversation but at the end of the day I personally I I try not to take a political position just simply if you drink too much and too much is generally defined as three to five drinks day on a regular basis, you might potentially have a problem with that could be impairing other parts of Your Life but do you have a disease or do you just abuse it? I don't know exactly what's your position? You know 'cause you're obviously you know you're the, you're the new generation that's been studying what has been your conclusion that discussion. So my personal opinion is that it is a disease I think that it's like you both discussed on some level I do think it's different than a lot of other diseases and that plays into a lot of the debate. You know one that I hear often is that you choose the initial use, right you choose to take drugs initially, and so that doesn't make it a disease and I think that I understand where that perspective comes from but I do think that. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a disease like diabetes I agree with that. That's a fantastic comparison on that. You may not choose or you May. He may not choose to get diabetes but you you you choose your diet and your exercise level and that's a huge contributing factor into whether or not you develop diabetes later in life and obesity is another example that is admittedly fairly controversial with Salman whether or not it should be considered a disease but is something that for a Lot of people, it involves a voluntary choice to again eat more or exercise less, and then you know that leads to obesity in comparison, people aren't going around asking people to sneeze in their face right or shoveling bacteria into their into their mouth to induce a disease. So that voluntary aspect isn't there but I don't think that necessarily means that it isn't a disease. I'm glad Kent brought up the the aspects of it with insurance because I think that on a nonscientific but just not. Realistic level if we want to help people if we want to get people to help that they need like you were saying Scott I think that it's not impossible but much harder to do that. If it's not listed as a disease, this is come up with mental health general to you know that the kind of double-edged Sword of stigmatization of you know labeling something like depression or anxiety or any of these things a disease or a disorder because on the one hand, it stigmatizes it. Leads to potentially negative associations with the person you know if if they think that Oh will now there's quote unquote something wrong with me that I have this diagnosis able disorder, this diagnosis disease. But on the other hand, it allows them to get treatment allows them to get help you know because insurance companies aren't gonNA pay for it if it's not. So yeah. I, guess, broadly, my stances that it is a disease I know that it's different from many other. Diseases and they're still a lot of research that needs to be done to better understand it. But yeah, I think that personally I would consider it a disease Zach. This is Bryce I want to caution everybody who's listening from diving too deep into whether or not it's disease and here's why medically and with the government yes it's a it's a big question and it needs to be answered eventually but when it comes to addiction and whether or not you have an. Addiction whether or not you do something about it and how and what that is. It doesn't matter whether it's a disease or not. You still have a problem and I'm not saying you do if you do you still have issue it still has to be addressed and we have to know how and why and right now there are ways whether it's Steig nosed as a disease or not. We have the ability to help the problem with our society right now. Going, back to the stigma, is that too many people are is debating about whether or not it's a brain problem or morality problem and the people that are out there having this debate a whole lot of them are focused on that morality thinking that somehow it's just gonNA magically disappear if everybody understands that morally we just need to stop and that's just not the case and we when we talk about it publicly as whether it's a brain disease or morality disease. I think we just give amunition that. Let's just stop focusing on that and get people to recognize that there is an epidemic throughout the United States of people abusing and using substances that don't need to be, and we need to figure out how and why. And work on that not whether audited disease but a not trying to take away from the medical issues or anything else I just WanNa make sure that people listening. Look if you need help you need help. Don't worry about whether it's disease or not, and one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about this is because I had a breakthrough, my own life. I told you earlier that I had a knee surgery. When was in the military I was told that I had some problems with my knees I had pain and I. It went to my shoulders and I had a whole lot of problem with joints and I focused so hard on trying to figure out what this unnamed disease was. That was causing my joint problems when all I really needed to do start exercising I still have pain and I still have problems and they're. Possibly still unnamed for whatever it is, but it doesn't matter what the name is. The exact figured out that if I start exercising and I focus on that, my folks son staying positive, it doesn't hurt as much. So I want the same thing for all the people out there that are struggling I want you to focus on how can we help you not whether or not you have a disease? Absolutely that's a great point and you know I think it's important that people just recognize that they that they need help. You know you're absolutely right on Scott head dropped his number earlier I wanted to give the listeners one more just in case anyone listening is going through any of these issues or is having any kinds of pandemic related spikes in their own drug use or or in general, not related to the band. So the the number that I wanted to give is the substance abuse and mental health services, national helpline number, and so basically, if you call this number, you can get confidential help that's free from public health agencies and you know and help find some substance use treatment and information that number if anyone needs it is one, eight, hundred, six, six, two, four, three, five, seven. And so that is another resource that listeners can tune into and give a call. If you think that this is a problem that you have again regardless of whether or not it's a disease. There are resources out there and it's important to seek them out or Mike had brought that up earlier that that is incredibly important while I think everyone at this point is brought up that it's incredibly important in but because it is. While the discussion on whether or not it's a disease is important especially from the scientific and the political side of things I absolutely agree with you that it's not. It's not necessarily the most important thing when it comes to getting people help. You know I I I agree with that as well. I didn't know what it was for a long time and when I went into treatment. You know I didn't know anything I just knew that I was depressed and when I drank I wasn't depressed. And I that triggered something for me you know and when I said, well, you need to stop drinking I'd stop drinking on start taking cocaine. Gambling you know and there's other things in sex. Same thing for some people you know and there's all kinds of issues around food but food we have to eat. Food we have to eat you know at the end of the day It's that going back to that inform piece you know for example, if somebody broke their leg. You know there's no way they're gonNA go. Oh honey. Let's get on Youtube and figure out what happened here and we'll we'll fix it. Now you know you're going to go to the emergency department and they're gonNA probably take an X-ray. And that's organic. That's what people do. It's the same thing. I mean if you're finding yourself dependent on anything relationships or or worker you know and it's funny I remember having this argument one day with somebody who was a triathlete and they go is spend eight hours a day getting to be the best I can be. What else do you do in your life is eating sleep. And I remember his significant other call me one days I. Think he's addicted to physical exercise and he won't stop. Well that wasn't healthy. When. He once he understood you know it was just part of his life. I go to meetings and their scientists says people go to meetings every week stand up and introduce themselves an alcoholic in an attic and we're that's that's self reinforcement of negative thinking I mean something people think that perpetuates it. So I I agree with you know the you're listening today. If you're not sure go online, there's a quiz you can actually take, and if you're not sure you don't like the outcomes of the quiz get on the phone call somebody find out and especially. This environment and most people they don't start drinking at age three something goes on in their life and that's the untreated trauma learn more about that in the last ten years and I ever had my whole life and people who suffer a catastrophic event, a loss of a family member. Those things can contribute to a lot of behavioral health issues that if not treated will manifest itself another ways and when you look at the suicide rate in our country right now it was an. Increasingly more you know we're just now starting getting ready to serve veterans. We got in network with a provider to help veterans in what they suffer. Don't anything that happens if somebody if it if it goes untreated, it gets worse not better and you can't just flip a switch and go I'm no longer going to feel sad. You know I'm no longer going to feel depressed. It just doesn't work that way what the body minded souls not not made up. We talk about gut health and our treatment a lot and that's you know how do you feel good as a person? What does that look like? I can remember working with people coming out of prison and we used to have guest speakers come in and go you folks you need to go get an education got go back to school so you can get a good job you know and they'd leave we decompress and we chatted down debrief and. Fascinating to hear from people, I don't even know how to go to school and sign up. So we started putting people in a van taking them over to the community colleges hand holding them going to the office, showing them how to grab an application, introducing them to the intake person, and then once you give people the tools, most people really appreciate it and I don't really appreciate it. They want to be independent but they don't want ask for help and I think that that to me is that to me is going to be one of the biggest stigma eradicators we can. Come up with and then making it easy for people to to ask for help I mean our emergency rooms are full and they're it's nea go you know there's a white line now for people that are overdosing and they're on medical, they're subsidized by the county and historically when they go there, they're not giving their stabilized again three hours you know a little IV saline solution, maybe a valium and send them on their way. So we're not even treating it effectively in my opinion and I remember having an argument just last week with somebody about the difference between treatment and recovery. So I again I liken it to other things and there are a lot of different things that were impacted by as a human race, and then then there's hereditary piece our parents give us this or that we're predisposed could be cancer could be diabetes. It can be you know stunting growth can be loss of hair I mean those things obviously don't kill you but they affect people's self esteem and they had to some of the shame based decision making processes. So getting people informed and making it an easy conversation, it shouldn't be that hard to say and I agree it shouldn't you know is A disease disease, it comes up in conversation and I personally for me believe I haven't my folks had diabetes cancer skin cancer in my family. So I go I go the dermatologists get checked out. I go to the dentist because I want to prevent make sure that I keep my teeth as long as I can and I wanNA dance it my kids weddings. So that's why I practice some of the things I do and again you know if I can get into I don't think I ever do a triathlon but you know that's okay I can watch the youtube videos and simulate with them too. That's my two cents. I'm hesitantly hopeful that this pandemic will open up the conversation a little more on health in general on addiction and things that we've been talking about. You know they're the things that need discussing things that need saying and I think this pandemic has given us a great opportunity to bring these issues to light into talk about them more openly and more freely. Unfortunately, it hasn't been happening quite as much as it probably needs to. But but it has been happening more I think than it was pre pandemic at least for some of these topics and I'm hesitantly hopeful that that will continue in an increase over time especially. As we learn more about these things, I wanted to turn it over to you guys. Again, I just wanted to give you one more opportunity to bring up anything that you think we've missed anything that you think needs saying that we haven't said, and in addition if you have anything that you would like to plug as thank you for contributing to the conversation, we want to give you the opportunity to do that and so and if not, then that's okay too. We'll all go because I have to go make dinner and I was going to have a chicken sandwich bryce but I'll take the bundle, save it for tomorrow. Anyway Scott Silverman please call me and one of our. Guests tonight when guys on with US give me a call. Let's talk about that. You know your future thinking about what's next if I can be of service. I can always be reached at six, one, nine, nine, nine, three, two, seven, three, eight or your crisis coach Dot Com you can always reach me they're just Google Scott Silverman and your listeners I you know I I dare people call me and I put my number out publicly all the time and I'm an SME here in San Diego and my first book was called tell me no idea and It was written about how to go from not yes. Because you know when you grow up and you're told you can't this you shouldn't that you're not smart enough or not tall enough that contributes to some of the shame based issues at some of us. Just you know we adopt and I learned my study with my book that seventy percent of the people that are told, no, they stopped there the. Other. Thirty percent would try to pivot and make a paradigm shift but only ten percent of those will actually go forward with their you know James wishes and hopes. So I really hope that people will call and realize that you know this issue we're discussing it's treatable. There's hope and there's help out there and I'm willing to do whatever I can be part of the conversation and you know I had. A busy couple of weeks and I didn't have to do this today and I'm really honored to be part of it because I think it's important to have the conversation and know that you know I can be resource for anybody family members those who don't understand it players kids against six, one, nine, nine, nine, three, two, seven, three, eight, and I I dare you to call me, I, do or text me. Thank you guys very much for the opportunity and good luck to all those of you're on the panel tonight and I appreciate your input and sharing. I got motivated tonight with some inspiration I hate when that happens but I'm gonNA. Take advantage of it because you know you never know who God speaking through. Thank you. Absolutely, thank you, Scott, thanks for joining us and for offering your your expertise in your perspective on all these issues. I'll share. This is Bryce I mentioned earlier I own a travel agency. One of the reasons why I own a travel agency many ways the primary reason when I left the military I was lost and I went into deep depression. I didn't leave of my own accord I was medically discharged. So I didn't plan to leave and like many other veterans is struggled to find myself I the military was everything to me, and I didn't know anything else. It took me many many years to understand that one of the things that was missing the most was. Change. In the military there was change all around me all the time especially with me being in the Navy I was sailing around the world I finally found that through personal travels and studying abroad when I went to school and I recognized that that was what I needed for me that escape Ding away periodically allowed me to come back home and refocus. So for me I had to get away and then I could come home and I could get back to work. So I ended up opening a travel agency to came and I bought a cruise planners franchise more than twenty five years old. Fantastic company I own the website www dot food and wine crews planners, dot com I know that's not necessarily appropriate for an addiction podcast. But alcohol is something that a lot of travelers do like. So we talk about that I would encourage you though that. If you ever do need to go for travels in, you need somebody who understands don't hesitate to contact us, my wife and I run the agency together. All you have to do is mentioned that you're in recovery and we will take care to make sure that any place we send you is going to be appropriate and we're not going to encourage you to go places where you might struggle with your addiction. The one other thing that I would tell you is if you do want to just kind of virtually escape, we do podcast of our own. It is a listed at the top of the website. You just have to click on podcast it's called Travel Tuesdays for fans. Again my name is Bryce and my phone number is four, zero, seven, four, five, four, six, three, three, six. Thank you great. Thanks Bryson. Thank you. Thank you for joining US tonight and for offering your expertise in your perspective. It was super valuable and great. I have nothing to add really except that it's been interesting to listen to the panel members. Thanks Zach and good luck to anyone watching. Thank. You can't thank you for joining us and offering the little bit of the scientific and addiction side of things and explaining the the brain models to to our listeners. throw a couple things out there. One Bryce I lied I'm going to have a chicken sandwich I'm sorry I. Thought about it. I'm going to have the Bun secondly just so you know my my podcasts called Over happier and I named it that because that's when I did most of my biggest drinking is happy hour and I think it's kind of spin on stuff. So sometimes, I gotta do we gotta do to market ourselves. So as it starts to grow and get out there anyway I want to echo again you know what you guys are doing. Awesome. Keep it going and then let me know if I can be resource for you guys anytime and that's that's all I'm GonNa say I'm done. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. Zach. Again was really. Informative of great listening to all the all the panel members gave me some things to You know think about and I really want to follow up the disease. Conversation. But that'll be for another time just because I'm really curious about how all these dynamic factors Kinda take play as far as like. Genetic social cultural things like that. But that'll be a follow up discussion another time with you with narrow case. But knows it was. Good to be on and I. Just want everyone to take care of themselves during this time as we move forward that's about it. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely, thanks for joining us. Mike as we close. I just wanted to offer you all everyone who's listening right now different plugs of our own So Mike said, they're definitely things that we haven't touched on in this conversation and that it's impossible to touch on in the short amount of time that we spend talking about these things. For this episode for others, we do have a couple sources that we plan to use to continue these conversations. So we are on social media we would encourage you to follow us on their. We're on Reddit facebook, twitter and instagram and Tumbler. Another place that we are trying to move into is discord. Sow Discord is typically a message APP for gaming but. It provides a really good format for us to continue these conversations. So if you download the discord out and then message us on any of our social media, we can get an invite link out to you. Basically, we have separate channels set up for every single conversation that we have every episode, and then hopefully it is still in the works were still attracting you know members and people to to discuss these things. But the hope is that that will be able to serve as a platform on which we can continue these conversations afterwards and touch on a lot of these things that either we didn't have time for or we didn't go as in depth as some may may have liked. And so hopefully, we can get that going to another thing that I want to ask of our listeners. So we are also on Youtube currently, we post our videos to youtube, and since we're typically audio, only we just have the audio wave up there. But what we are hoping to do in the near future is against streaming live to Youtube facebook in twitch, and maybe incorporating video along those lines. So we really want to encourage you to follow us on twitter and on Youtube so that we can hit the hundred subscribers count on Youtube and the. For twitch so that we can have a custom url and posts recorded video on twitch that way we can get these discussions out there to even more in and spread the word a little further. Last thing I'll say is that we really appreciate all of the support and that we grow most from word of mouth we are still a relatively new podcast and because of that the greatest way for you to help us continue to have these important discussions is to share with a friend that you think would enjoy these conversations that we've had whether it's this episode or previous ones that we've had. And then that way they can not only enjoy the discussions themselves and enjoy listening to the podcast but maybe then have a snowball effect and bring even more people in. Typically. These panels aren't the only format we do. We also have live episodes where we'll talk more broadly about a subject and instead of bringing in specific people, we open up the floor for the for discussion for anyone and invite anyone who is interested in. So if anyone is interested in taking part in a live discussion in the future, feel free to email us at, say what needs saying podcast at gmail.com and we can add you to our invite list. So from there will call it a night I. Think we had a fantastic conversation and we touched on a ton of different topics that are super important today and unfortunately not being talked about enough. But one last time just to for our listeners to have the resource the S. A. M. H. S. a national helpline number for those that need it is one, eight, hundred, six, six, two, four, three, five, seven. and. Thank you all for listening. We'll call it there and have a good night. Thanks for listening. To this episode, please remember to like subscribe and leave us a five star rating. Also you can follow us on twitter at say what needs and on instagram and facebook. Saying for live updates and soundbites from my actual. Don't forget to continue to discuss. Thanks for listening. Thanks.

Scott Silverman Diseases US brain disease Bryce Youtube Portugal diabetes Mike cocaine Grad school spotify Columbus Patrick Kennedy Alan Leshner
67 | Jack Wilborn, Law Enforcement Action Partnership (LEAP)

Kannaboomers | Cannabis for Wellness

1:00:09 hr | 6 months ago

67 | Jack Wilborn, Law Enforcement Action Partnership (LEAP)

"When laws are unjust they should be changed and when people charged with enforcing law point this out it's worth listening Jack wilborne represents the Law Enforcement Action Partnership or leap. He has arrested people for possession of cannabis about the consequences, too often life-changing and tragic ways leap is focused on moving us toward Federal action on cannabis laws jackass statistics and real life stories about the cascading effect of policing People based on unjust laws secure about the human cost of our outdated drug laws. They want to share this episode with your family and friends whether you're a subscriber or a first-time listener, please stop by and see us at can a boom with a K, We are focused on how can a bulb in CBD can help you achieve better wellness and importantly how to find CBD this trusted and reliable. If you'd like the podcast Please Subscribe and please leave a review. So other people can find the show and here's my interview with Jack will born Cannabis is booming. And Canada boom is on it. Welcome to the cannibal podcast where we interview experts on the changing story of humans health and Hound from San Diego. Here's your host Tom Stacy off. It's Tom, welcome back to the can boom podcast. Today. We're excited to speak with Jack will burn who is representing the law enforcement Action Partnership. Hey, Jack. Hi, how you doing? Really good big topic to talk about in terms of law enforcement and cannabis laws. And that's who you're representing is ex law enforcement officers basically represent lots of enforcement Factory. We are worldwide over twenty countries and we actually had one of the officers as the speaker Force. Sue the Royal Canadian Mounted Police because they've let him speak. So so he sued him and won so he's one of our speakers but we do have officers that are out, you know on the in the field. They do Speed most of our officers Agra tired because it is kind of time-consuming will tell us about leap and what the organization does. Well basically their mission is to unite mobilize the voice of law enforcement in support of policy and criminal justice reforms that make our communities safer by focusing law enforcement resources on the greatest threats to Public Safety promoting alternatives to arrest and incarceration addressing the root causes of crime and working towards healing police-community relations. We're also Envision a world in which criminal justice and Drug policies keep our community Thursday April ending the war on drugs and looking beyond the criminal justice system for range of solutions to address society's ills or ill Will's better protect human rights wage. Is violence and rejection and build better respect for and Trust in law enforcement. So in a nutshell, that's kind of what we're up. Well, that's a well-crafted statement. It sounds like a lot of people had input on that page. Yeah, so that's why I that's why I don't try to put it in my own nutshell cuz they did a very good job of it. Sure. So where the rubber meets the road? It's you guys sort of being off a Lobby for better drug policies. Well, we all do what we can some some people are supportive some people in life support office of legislative and let's work towards change in legislation of of things or or how prisons are run or how prisons are dealt with those are all part of the Criminal Justice Reform systems. So those are you know hand and leaps and interested in those also if that's where you're going to tell us how how you became involved in leap wow started when I woke. Rookie, and I was out and was an fto which is called the field training officer, you know you go through the academy and then they put you in the field for a few weeks and the birth sign the first time you're out there, you know, you're kind of seeing what's going on and then pretty soon the training officers giving you more of a load and eventually he comes out and civilian clothes off a new handle all the calls and that's pretty much how they tell if you're ready to have what we call Kar command or you can go out and be an officer on your own without having to be supervised so often happen to me. It was one of those situations where they want to know if you're you understand the traffic laws, so you have to stop everybody that violates a traffic law no matter what it is worth. Now. In this case, I pull over a kid that had a broken tail light after you know, the guy was real nice kids. Love real. Well his English was excellent and was really smart. And you know, I was just going to write him a Fix-It ticket and my fto caught a whiff of marijuana a turned out a little tiny roach under a seat and you know ended up arrested going to you know, getting a year in prison had a list of these course University just that were wanting to putting through it and of course he lost all that. So basically I trashed his life and you know, that's how I felt myself feel that today off. You know, that is not what I joined the police department to do. And when I got real sick about a decade and the working, you know, the internet started becoming more available and I started looking for other people that believe like idea that you know, the drug war was a hoax pretty much and you'll never stop it anyway, and so I found leap at a time which was a provision. But unfortunately when they started about 2003 they weren't really interested in the you know, the normal police officer there a big interest was pretty much in people have been twenty-five years the Gea and stuff like that which we do have now. We have people in DEA judges, you know, lots of people that worked in the criminal judge very criminal justice system and not you know, feel like we did that. This is a waste of people on money and everything. So your Epiphany was seeing how a minor infraction could blow up someone's life song. Otherwise law-abiding except for being a cannabis user. Well, he wasn't a cannabis user. I think that's the one thing that really stuck out is the roach was probably a quarter off a quarter inch long and it was under a c and you know, one of the things you kind of they frown on is if you follow these these things through to the end, but I was just a rookie and I wanted to know what happened and I actually talked to his attorney like I tested negative for Canaveral for metabolize. So he had not been using a credit that his friends had smoked and I'm you know, knowing how that stuff works. He probably picked it out the window ended up under seat. So he was not a user he had he got the full of the system and he paid for it the rest of his life. Yeah, that's tragic when you multiply that by three or four hundred thousand cannabis arrests a year in this country. That's a big story. Yeah it off. You know a lot of this is real sad, I mean, there's not any good views on it as far as you know, there's an attitude about drugs that we need to change and that attitude came from actually came from I think the Nixon Administration but you know, cuz most people think cannabis was as being Wonder was scanning outlawed originally. Well nineteen thirty-seven, I think was Harry anslinger with the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. That was the whole part. What was that called? Well, there was a marijuana stamp Tax Act. I believe in the late thirties. Yeah. So it was a Prohibition it was taxed, right? It did roll into prohibition, which you're right. I think Nixon really exacerbated that because there was research coming back. I mean Nixon basically commissioned research and it came back saying cannabis is not a bad thing, but he kind of doubled down on where we were at at that time, you know, Asking hippies as political enemies and wanting to incarcerate those people hippies and people of color and yeah that certainly lasted has lasted a long time and I'm we're we're still dealing with it. Yeah, what broke the camel's back on that really was. Dr. Timothy Leary, you know, he was caught coming across the border with a joint in Texas home and He ended up in court and went to the Supreme Court and he said, you know if I admitted if I bought the tax stamp, then it would be admitting to the state of Texas that I was off waiting or law. Which puts you in Double Jeopardy. So the basically a supreme court agreed with him and that basically kills the tax stamp. But Nixon took over and went along with the schedule system after that for reasons, you described right schedule one making it designated as a drug with no redeeming value medicinal value when we know that's not true anymore. Well, you know, the issue is you have to think about how our government works, you know, according to them. It has no medicinal value. Well, it's a turn of the 20th century the top three prescribed medications had cannabis in them. You know and so you ask why isn't this legal medication? And the reason it's not considered a medicine is because the FDA has to approve stuff to approve something to get it actually through the suggesting we have it has to be based on a single molecule on a single Target and of course, you know cannabis has plenty of molecules to hit funny at Targets which makes it virtually impossible to walk past with the message. We know we'd have to test the world to get accurate numbers. So that will never pass as long as we have separate molecules. It will never be an FDA-approved drug, but you can ask the same question, you know who invented drugs if they weren't drugs before nineteen was 1908 or whenever the Pure Food and Drug Act was passed. You know, so that's what made cannabis no medicinal value was because the FDA couldn't prove it leap has sort of been a Grassroots effort from law enforcement officers who have seen the Injustice of this and want to try to move us past that yes. Basically that's true. It's you know, if the bottom line is we saw this to be an issue now, we're on the front lines. We have boots on the ground, but nobody wants to listen. So in Practical terms, how do you make progress on this? Agenda? Well, you know when I last took a year, I spent most of the legislative session down talking to legislators, you know, trying to get them to understand that this is you know, not wage. Where are you? Jack? What state are you in Phoenix where I'm going? Actually I live in Peoria, but which is right next to Phoenix. Pretty much is cannabis legal in Arizona we had Medical marijuana only and simple. We're the only state that simple possession is a felony. Oh, wow. Are there still a lot of arrests taking place for that? Yeah, I can't remember what it was last year, but it's somewhere around 10,000 that's significant. Yeah, we have an initiative that hopefully will help it's on the ballot this November among active-duty police. Do you believe your beliefs would be in the minority or majority or what percentage of policemen do you think see cannabis as something that shouldn't be outlawed? Well, you know, I see more and more of them as I speak with more and more officers coming in. I don't know if they've you know seen it when they were in college or whatever but more and more Officers Club and seem to realize the futility of it. It's difficult to talk to officer. If you talk to him about you know how Prejudice it is and they boo hoo your way home. Yeah, most cops are prejudiced. It's just the whole mechanisms Prejudice. You know, it's not one particular are their presidents cops, of course, or they're not prejudiced cops. Most of them are not fringes but you know, the mechanism filters you and forces those kind of situations, you know, dr. Timothy Leary when he came across the border was was a joint was looking at ten years in prison and $50,000 or some crazy in though. So these are the these are the problems that we have and these are the problems we need to to resolve and overtime. What we've done is we've you know, basically thought everybody that if it's a drug as bad and you know, you compare it to other drugs that we we use and we have there's really no comparison to many of these drugs certainly as an enforcement officer. Your job is to enforce the statutes in the laws and I guess there's some latitude there in how aggressive you are. If you if an officer believes they smell some cannabis. They have the authority to look under the seat or in the trunk or all over the place. Right? Well actually one of the points I made the more than one legislator wage when I was an officer, you know, if I got a call for the smell of marijuana and I went out there and I could say it's coming from this house. I could just kick, it's Dorian you need the authority to enforce wage. Law, but and it's not up to you to decide if the laws just or unjust right you do your job. Well, well you yes or no, you know, sometimes you look up something you go. This would be loaded for us to do this. You know, it wouldn't affect it wouldn't change what happened. It wouldn't change what's going to happen in the future. You know, it's just in sometimes Overlook things because of that, you know, it's like a body camera. I'd love to have a body camera, but it's a two two bladed sword, you know, two edged sword because you know, if you say, yes, you'll see somebody that you might give a break to and somebody in a similar situation. You don't give a break to and so, you know, you can't do that anymore. Now, you can't give a break to anybody. You get what I'm driving at? Yeah, it takes the discretion out of it. You're always being monitored. So you have to be absolutely consistent and and not use your judgement boss. And and you know, I'm sure I overlooked drugs that you know, if I didn't feel, you know, I didn't worry about it. If I didn't feel there was a danger to the public, you know, that's who am I pretty much looked at most of police enforcement was if this is not a danger to the public I probably shouldn't be involved with it and you know, sometimes that conflicted with laws and when that happened I have to try to do what's what the legal law says. I mean, that's the bottom line of any Police Department the fallacy with that system is you know, what our police officer here for, you know, most people don't know what police or four and police are here to reduce crime. And the way you tell how effective a police force is is by how little of the police force you actually see because if they're suppressing crime, you know, seeing them. Unfortunately, we've kind of lost that view and now we're chasing things and we've made laws that are really moral and they're they affect what a person when a person uses a drug. That's something he does to himself. You know, we don't need to legislate that that's something that the that shouldn't be legislated. These are crimes against oneself or something and we don't need to throw somebody in jail cuz somebody that makes a mistake or whatever but we need to do is look at the law itself. And so does this something that doesn't hurt other people if it doesn't hurt other people then we shouldn't be enforcing it. You know, if you take a drug and it makes you where you can't drive and you drive while you're endangering other people you need be hooked and booked now, if you're taking a drive in your sitting at home doing whatever you're not hurting anybody. Why should you be prosecuted right? It's sort of a victimless crime. Yeah. Well, they made the victim to state are themselves, you know, and they've you know, they basically thrown out our Fourth Amendment, right? They've sunk our Bill of Rights with this War on Drugs. That's the main reason I'm against it. You know, that's what happened. You know, that's the end product of Brianna Taylor. Our was you know, we had these laws that allowed him to say. Well we saw her go there and then they took 12 search warrants to the same judge in less than fifteen minutes. She had signed him and had him back to the officers. And Brianna Taylor's was in that and there was no evidence at all that she was really involved in a drug usage. So, you know, it's these warrants they put drugs on it the judges go. Okay. This is a thing. We have a handle it came along with I think she called it present presumptive detention or are you familiar with that? No, I'm not. I can't remember the Saltzman or still a minute or something back in Nixon's error actually came up with a way to detain people and that was presumptive detention. And at that point if they had a drug, that means they were dangerous to everybody that had to be kept locked up. You know, that way they couldn't have people get you know arrest somebody had to go out and bail and continued they could keep them off for indefinite amounts of time. He's also the same guy that came up with the no-knock and associated with the group that wanted if you had three felonies you went dead president for life. Well that presumptive detention kind of maps back to the whole Reefer Madness idea that you know, you're a danger to society. You could be a an Axe Murderer if you thought I was Cannabis that you could be an Axe Murderer with any drug according to you know, basically that but yes, they targeted marijuana and heroin specifically well and I mean we all know wage To experience cannabis doesn't really make you violent. And again we get back to schedule one and even the definition of cannabis as a drug. I mean, it's an herb. I grow in my back yard, you know, like oregano. Oregano is not considered a drug. It's an herb cannabis comes out of the ground if you hanging upside down and eventually decarboxylate it has effects but you know ambient is a drug. That's that's manufactured in a lab cannabis is a natural herb. Is it really really good, you know American dollars. Marinoff. Okay. Marinol is a synthetic THC. It's in I believe sesame oil if you get it, it's a capsule but full sets of the oil and the THC is in the sesame oil in the capsule. That drug is synthetic produced by the FDA you go out to the FDA sites. There's been four deaths in for a cage from Marinol there have been no deaths from natural that make the yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've heard that over and over that there's you can't attribute any deaths to cannabis wage other than accidents or something. But yeah the just the idea that we know it's safe and is it properly scheduled and I guess what I'm getting at is off the law itself probably needs to change if we're going to change law enforcement. Well, yes where you know cuz you know when you're when you the reason for law enforcement is like I said. Base things safe, but the bottom line is police are here to deal with crimes against other people. You smoking a joint is not a crime against somebody else neither shooting heroin or snorting coke, but you know, we don't Advocate any of this but we all should Advocate people get locked up for it. If they have an issue with it. Let them get help to fix it. Right, you know, you said earlier to that most police officers aren't prejudiced but there is a racial a large discrepancy and who gets arrested right people of color overwhelmingly represent more of the Cannabis arrests, you know, the the actual numbers and you know, sometimes you have to take it with a grain of salt, but they're pretty clear now even worse, you know, even if you look at them as best case numbers are worse case numbers. It's basically one out of three blacks will go to jail. When one out of 17 white Supply to jail, which does seem a little bit skewed and then you take off fact that there's less than 13% of Americans are black, you know, at least thirteen percent of the population. Then you're looking at the ratio should be more like 170 for black people but it is and it's 103 and yes, that's very sad. But you know, it isn't just the arrest this once you get arrested you go in now they want cash for bail for bond to get out. If they let you out. You know, they're held for one of these drug charges. They may be held for multiple days off and it's difficult to get bail when they're held like that. They maybe the family person the family that brings home the the food. So now you're starving the kids off. So they propagates down a lot of areas. I don't know if that's where you're going with this. But well sure. I mean there's a ripple effect. It's like you mentioned the first kid you pulled over he was going to go to college. She probably that probably fell off the table. It's hard to rent apartment. It's hard to get a job if you have that conviction on your record. So yeah, there's it's not just spending the night in jail. It's a whole bunch of stuff that Cascades out of that arrest. Yeah plus the cost but just a few of the things that come from drug prohibition is like the US 5% of the world juice world's population and 25% of its prisoners are from drug prohibition reduce Clara rates for violent crime because they're dealing with drugs reduced trust and faith or respect for the place because they're you know, they can't trust that. They won't be arrested families broken by incarceration where you have these kids that you know, these family members there in jail car, sir. Created and have to do without them, you know income inequality is increased because we see that in the numbers, you know, the racial problems reduced power of judges because they legislators like now they're doing mandatory sentences. They're taking the ability to judge to say this guy isn't a known criminal or this guy is you know, I don't think this guy is going to go on to be more crime and they're taking that away from them and saying You Gotta Give them this many years. It causes Street, you know, powerful Street and prison gangs mandatory minimum sentences is also the same issue and there are few resources for treatment of this stuff homicides due to tell Force, you know, informants and Drug debts National industrial complexes where they produce all these drugs police resources diverted drug cases that goes on and on and on It's a picture of insanity. I mean, it's crazy. So the way I Stein to find it doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Well you guys represent a hopeful aspect of this in that as you said, you're you got boots on the ground you're on the front lines and you can come back and tell people hey this isn't right. Tell me how much progress you've made how long has leaped been in existence and and how long have you guys had an effect on any any laws? Well, you know, we support a lot of a lot of areas. I mean a lot of the people places in the United States have leaked speakers Thursday. We try to go out and speak whenever we're asked and it depends on the speaker what he targets. Some of them are, you know, talk about prison stuff and other things I happened to be the kind of the drug angle person is what my interests lie. And so they vary But we speak and we help people with criminal justice, you know, even some of the people that have written legislation to do Criminal Justice Reform, you know, it runs through leave them leave usually, you know gives an opinion we're not political so we don't say we always support this group of that group. We stay out of the politics, but you know, unfortunately I'm saying is a political hot potato and you know, I have gone to people that have welcomed me with open arms going on a police and then wanted to throw me out of their office because I wanted to legalize drugs. You know and they you know, they their position as you just want everybody use drugs and my position is I don't want anybody use drugs. But if they do, I don't wanna thrown in jail off but, you know having a beer as nice but don't throw people in jail for smoking a joint might be nice. You know, there's a real push. I think Oregon this year has a an initiative to legalize all drugs. So we'll see what happens with that. Yeah. We're seeing more psilocybin measures one just passed in Arbor already in Oakland and Denver I think but when you talk about the political aspect to it, it's it's difficult to separate that but it's about individual rights and you know other guests I've had on have mentioned that in the eighties and nineties normal and other groups were trying to say hey cannabis is an individual right but it really wasn't until AIDS patients began. Yep. Taking cannabis to reduce their symptoms and we saw a reduction in their suffering that it began to gain Traction in far as decriminalizing it because it's a medicine and we now know who works for epilepsy PTSD Alzheimer's there's a lot of applications for this as a medicine and that seems to sway people more than the individual right argument. Well, I think the people that I hear that come back to me and say you're right. We should legalize drugs are usually the ones that their kid ends up being buried because their kid ends up into something and you know, Jesus on it. And you know, those are the sad things we run into is the only tell people about this and they you know Paw Paw us out and then we hear back from yeah. I lost my son or I lost my grandson to some drug. I wish they had a way for him to go and get off it, you know, and and that's I think a key to a lot of what you know, you look at some countries. I'm sure you're aware of Portugal's drug reading and how in two thousand they basically realized they couldn't afford to keep incarcerated people. So in 2001, they took the lies all drugs. And at that point it took time, but today they lose four people out of a million for drug overdose. We lose a hundred and eighty-five out of a million home with drug, you know per million for drug overdose, which way is better right with that kind of case study. I mean that's where you can say. This isn't about politics. This is about common-sense wage. And it's it's not just Portugal, you know, a lot of people say, well, you know, we don't want to live like Portugal. Well, I don't either but you know drug abuse is the same worldwide. It's not like if you're a socialist, you know get addicted to drugs. So the problem is everywhere. It's not just there but look at the Dutch they in the mid-90s had to criminalize cannabis pretty much off and You know, what do they got now? They have half the adult users half the minor users and we have and they have no I'm sorry half the people their teens cuz you suck smoke they're eighteen but people under eighteen have no interest in it in countries are always asking them how you how that happened and they said we made marijuana boring off. All right. It's exciting if it's illegal, right? Yeah, you know, I don't know what it is. But you see the same thing in the prohibition of alcohol, you know decade before prohibition alcohol. I'm trying to think of what else you know, where it's doing two and half or three gallons of methanol day or Messing off for capita. I've got it here somewhere. I think. Oh here it is. In nineteen fifteen word. Take were drinking about two and a quarter of gallons of ethanol per capita or 400,000 the 9020 right before prohibition. We were down to about a quarter gallon per capita. And that was all done by social pressure just like we did with smoking we didn't Outlaw social pressures bad people quit using it exactly what it was alcohol by nineteen was at 1925 we were now For eight times almost 2 gallons. So we're almost what eight times the amount of alcohol intake after prohibition started. So, you know, you you question of what is it about illegal the causes of drink because the same it's the same people. The only thing that changed was it became illegal and then all of a sudden it's by Rockets, you know, what is it about Prohibition that causes that but we see it everywhere people want what they're not supposed to have. Well, it's nice to have to be legal legislative. For instance dear. I try to buy toilet paper a few months back. Yeah, you can find it on the internet for $45 for a four-pack, you know that's science or prohibition people can't get what they want. Then what happened to the hand sanitizers all of a sudden if that was the fda's but now things they, you know, don't put this in the hand side of Dodgers cuz they were putting wood alcohol, which is poisonous. That's what happens during a Prohibition mechanism. It doesn't have to be legislated just has to be respected to the point that people can't get it you get what I'm driving out. Yeah. Do you think there is an educational aspect to this on the front end? I mean in the Netherlands, how did they wage go about making cannabis boring? Well for one thing you don't drive down the street and see Billboards saying, you know vote no on 207. What's a big pot leaf, you know, they don't have that kind of stuff out because it's not legal and that's a problem because when you're not legal, where do they get their marijuana? Where does the smoke shops are the coffee shops get their marijuana. It's an underground illegal business because it's decriminalized not legalized. And there's a major difference because none of this stuff now is tested or anything that comes through, you know goes into their places. It's just they've been doing a lot of years. They have a pretty functional mechanism, but there still is no control, you know, you try to find out where they come from. It's all hidden, but if you grow marijuana plant near yard, the penalty is you you have to go outside call it up. Yeah, so their systems not perfect but results in less destruction. Oh, yeah. Yeah, cuz what they did with the UN attempted the pressure of stopping this because the UN was finding out people are going to Amsterdam smoking. And they didn't want that so they put pressure on on the Dutch and the Dutch basically came up with a system that said you have to have a card to buy marijuana. Well, then they got pounded by all these places cuz cuz they initially after damn ignored it. So all the cities and stuff that implemented it started getting their police departments are getting pounded by all these drug deals cuz the residence were buying the marijuana name is Solomon to the tourists on the corner. oh boy, so you don't you know, we saw the same thing when we when we clamped down on the on the Mexican Government for marijuana, cuz their original position was that's not our problem here people aren't you know, then what they did was shut down the border for about a month till Mexico complied. And then what they say, they saw an increase in air traffic find this stuff over here. The demand is there and whether the market is underground or above-ground. It's going to be served. Yeah and prohibition just a failure no matter what you implement it with, you know, you have to you have to be something worse prohibiting, you know, like you don't want people to get fissionable material suitable material, you know, you don't want to sell at a Circle K and that's worth spending a lot of money to keep out of people's homes. But that's also something that can affect other people not something that affects just you. You know another issue is the driving problem, you know, they feel like there's a real issue with collisions and you know, the research design sport at the research no research supports driving impaired. Let me see that right off. Okay, but when you take a person with alcohol and you put them on a closed course you get them alcohol and they drive faster than they should they exceed the speed limit. They drive closer to leaving vehicle going to take chances. They shouldn't take when they're you know, if they were drinking alcohol cannabis on the other hand the same situation. They drove slower Drive farther from being vehicle, then they don't take chances. They would take when they weren't using cannabis. So that's probably why you see a difference in why mrs. Says, you know, there's little to no problem. There's little-to-no highway safety issue with cannabis because it does not seem to affect you, you know, even though all the studies show, you know, you're delayed and this and that apparently your brain knows enough about what's happening to adjust for them. At least that's just speculation. That's a complex issue. And as you say none of us would recommend anybody driving under any kind of influence fact is the same thing actually says this not even the slightest bit or slightest amount of impairment which of course would make everybody illegal at some point because you know, you get a cold in Europe 18 hours and you're going to the doctor Yeah, if you're of 18 hours and you're driving, you're probably close to 9:08 as far as being impaired, you know, you may not be drinking that your brain isn't working right neither is a lot of other school. So it's kind of one of those things. You gotta kind of take with a grain of salt, you know, but you don't want people impaired but there is going to be amount of impairment out there. You have to deal with Jacqueline you you mentioned earlier when you got ill are you comfortable talking about your health? And yeah, I guess so. What was your condition? I had actually couldn't get out of bed because my back hurts home and had that paramedics load me an ambulance ended up having a blood infection. And they had to give me I guess about six weeks total in the hospital 24-hour Ivy and four weeks at home on a 24-hour IV well wage and then they have to take my defibrillator out cuz of my heart because they were afraid yet. We've got infected and then put another one in afterwards. So it was a real mass in Europe. You're okay now, well, I hope so. Yeah, I see my cardiologists in a week. So I'll find it out their latest things there. But yeah, it took me out of you know, took me out of things I do for Life pretty much a year cuz it started right before Thanksgiving and I'm still not a hundred percent and I'm trying to get back moving. I'm an evangelist for cannabis for a lot of thoughts. I have no idea if it would help with with a blood infection. Well, I don't know, you know, there's some things you just need Western medicine to fix that's true, you know off. It's too bad. But you know, what is curious though is I'd like to be able to know if you know all these people that went in with this coronavirus how many of these people cannabis users and what was their stand extension? Like I've put on a couple of blog posts about some research out of Israel around the cytokine storm, you know, your immune system kind of turns on your birthday and the endocannabinoid system does modulate a lot of functions including the immune system in they had research that showed a blend of thirty terpenes and and some CBD helped kind of even out that immune system response and there was another some research out of the University of South Carolina, but acquired respiratory distress syndrome where they found that THC actually helped with that. I've also interviewed Kyle Turley an ex-nfl player adamantly says that CBD can prevent or cure the coronavirus and I can't go that far, you know, even the FDA came after a month. But he's a True Believer and it certainly has helped him in many respects. It would be good to see some real data on it those research projects. Are they take a while to pull together and we're trying to defeat the virus now or just try to trying to survive but I will the one of the universities did research on a burn unit. And you know, when you go into a Bernie and they draw blood off everything in there and they really compared cannabis to non-drug users to think it was cocaine and alcohol there was like three of them one of the most maybe antidepressants and the funny part is about this is that the actual people on no drugs came out around nine grand or something for the off the costs overall cannabis users came in actually run 8100. And then cocaine was higher than that and alcohol was the highest said about 150 Grand well and time also alcohol course had the highest murder or you know, highest death rate and cannabis had the lowest death rate. So, you know, those are the kinds of studies that we need and went wrong in the traffic traffic enforcement and we have a traffic collision. We need to collect all this data and put it somewhere and that means, you know, if they're going to a hospital and he defended recommend to have this data collected because if we don't collect the data in twenty years, we'll be in the same boat. We're in now right? It's just fundamental assumption. We all grew up with the notion that can choice is bad and it leads to harder drugs and it's Reefer Madness and all that stuff. And what you've talked about is real world tragedies based on the existing laws and enforcing those laws. For a substance that is not that destructive. Well that's part of the issue and you know since you know about early then you know, his family said they know him and they didn't, you know believe in any of this but you know that the numbers and everything showed different, you know, when he made a comment, you know, he said did we know the that we were both lying about the drugs course again, I think that pretty much captures that they knew what they were doing and you know, your biggest problem in my biggest problem. Everybody else is is if I want to research a schedule one drug, I can get a lot of money at the hospital a little support me approval by the DEA. I can research drug if I want to do cannabis. I have to have the same thing. But now I have to go through the National Institute of drug abuse or Nida night as Charter is drug abuse. So they won't approve of anything that says I want to see if this works to help. So they wired into the mechanism way to keep you from awesome. You know, they knew that worked. They wrote in the law way to keep you from getting it legalized and that's by putting through a department. That won't do that. The only way you can get it in. There is say I'm going to show you how bad this drug is if it turns out good that's just do that and that that has happened. So it's a battle that needs to be fought on several fronts. And I know you want to stay a political but it would it be fair to say that you and or leap lien thong sort of a Libertarian approach on this if Libertarians been thrown in, you know, not being thrown in jail, cuz you're not bothering anybody I guess. So, yeah, I mean it's kind of a tough question to answer cuz I can't speak for everybody but we stay out of the politics, but we notice things like, you know, Camilla had dead. What thousand of our cases overturned cuz she violated California law by not giving defense attorneys the money or the information that was required by law that showed up in a centaur that that that more tactfully or more truthfully was that that showed how poor some of the Witnesses were unreliable. They were basically ended up turning over a thousand of her convictions. She also says she does not want to legalize marijuana. She will decriminalize not getting you know, not legalized which is not what we want. We need it out of the hands of the federal government, you know Trump on the other hand said, yes, we will, you know, if you put give me a legalized Bill sign it off. Now the governor of Arizona do see told the legislature the same thing you give me a legalized bill. I'll sign it the Attorney General's office. Arizona Mark, brnovich said you need to legalize marijuana through the legislature and I still go down there and they tell me I'm not going to legalize these drugs home. So you know, what do you supposed to do? You know, it's not that it's a Republican or Democratic thing. It's the whole group or focused on the point that this is bad and that you know, we just have to keep fighting it forever. Well, do you think it's better to tackle this on a state-by-state basis or would it be better to have a federal declaration that cannabis is not illegal. Well, it's the federal also told that everything up, you know, the only reason it hasn't been changed there as we can't petition the federal government like an initiative. That's what the convention of states is going to do. They're actually going to you know, there's a clause our Constitution that allows two states to get together override the federal government basically and you know, we don't take control a lot of people feel if we don't take control of their constitution back. We're not going to be able to do a lot of this stuff but something like that would let our legislators know that we're serious and they need to pay attention to us and they're not doing that. At least that's what most people feel like, you know, they think you know, most people think this is bad, you know, they pull up data that says, you know look up increase in accidents and I'm sure you've seen those you haven't you? Yeah. Yeah, you know, what are they based on? Now where do they get this data real estate that comes from a rest data so that when the guy here is arrested and has metabolized and prosecuted. He's a DUI. Oh, well, he's not deal. I probably so what they're doing is you'll computer trick garbage in garbage out there feeding it a bunch of data. These people are per se do you offer now? All of a sudden? We have a Skyrocket in these people do you is well, there's no basis for its because you legislated something. It's kind of like legislating. Anybody has blue eyes is g u i want a couple of years you're going to say we can't let people with blue eyes drive cuz if you do a lot hm you get when I'm driving it. Yeah. Yeah, just leyshon is put in place to say you're impaired when you're not necessarily impaired. This is says that metabolites are useless yet. That's what we prosecute all of our DUIs off. In Arizona is is metabolites and all of a sudden says it's useless. Anybody does anything in the metabolites knows it's a useful science for the exact same purposes. All it means is you've been exposed to the molecule and a week ago or two weeks ago to see the same thing happening to you know, young middle-class women that go in or even upper class women going to have a baby. They do it blood draw and they're they're they test positive for opiates when in fact all they did is stop at Panera and buy a dog and yet there's enough morphine in there to trigger that hm and then they end up having their child with help. Yeah, this is what the drug wars doing. Well will tell us what the listener can do to help support leap in your mission could because it's important. I mean again being on the front lines and having this voice is is a huge thing and want to thank you for being involved but how could listeners help? Well, the best thing it is send money, you know, I mean off the elites always needing funds but you know, you can go out you can talk to legislators. That's you know, the best thing you can do is is make your word known to legislators, you know, don't get in this thing where you sign the you know, where you where the legislator goes to his desk and as secretary hands on a stack, you know, that's a foot high of the same thing took it over and over and over again. You know that you know, he knows somebody got in the computer did that and probably just going to toss him. We need to you know, writing a personal letters always better writing emails game, you know, the candy males work, but you get a canned response usually and most of the most legislators know that but the best thing you can do is get the out get out took two people get their true word of it out understand the the science behind it. Someone somebody says not on all these people are you know, if you legalize everybody will be addicted. Well, we know that's not true because of this this and this they don't know it's true. They assume it's true. Just like they assume if you have metabolized you're intoxicated then we know that's not true. So it's hard, you know to get these views over and get the people to understand that they have the wrong view of this. So get educated get involved in discussions and conversations about this talk to your lawmakers and just get out there. Yeah, that's near the best thing you can do and and you'd mentioned do you think it's a state thing? But what makes this move is that the people have got the states to legalize medical marijuana? Okay, then once people start realizing hey, this isn't so bad then they moved on to legalization, you know, recreational legalization or adults is and from there. They'll probably go on another drugs, you know when they realize but eventually down the road somewhere. That these drugs aren't the problem if you want to deal with the drugs or killing people deal with alcohol. That's what's killing people in our state that's a straight-up poison and we know that off and we know that not only that but if you watch TV in the morning or they have a guy run into somebody going the wrong way the first thing out of the DPS officers mouth is we have a real alcohol problem. Now, that's the drive. That's the issue. But you know, if you look at the numbers say do you want somebody driving say you have somebody take heroin do you offer driver? No, not sleeping pills. Do you want them out there driving? No, sir. Okay, if you take What notes are says is the Collision odds increase of taking a month or feigning or what's called a narcotic analgesic. It's a seventeen percent increase in odds of collision. That doesn't sound very good pay you take heroin or you take sleeping pills. That's a 19% increase in collisions. Okay. Do you know it's a DUI loan for alcohol is What is it now Point O 8 .08. Yeah for a regular person. It's 04 if you have a commercial license wasn't your driving first. So you're not dead .03 rise of collision with alcohol is 20% Well, so you exceeded all the worst drugs already at that point for there's a 60% chance of increase in Collision .05. There's a hundred percent Champion chance to increase in Collision, you know, and that's why Mister says off if you have a, poly drug situation more than one drug and alcohol is one of those drugs. It's the cause of the accident. Well, and that's another song on the in this war is the alcohol Lobby. I mean the entrenched Financial interests. Yeah. Good luck. Well, that's one of the issues, you know, you told us to a legislator and they go God you're right, but I can't log. Like that, I'd never get rid of, you know realized we're back to politics even sorry, but you know everything you ripen about is related somehow, you know, I'd like to be able to say yeah, it's great. We shall just use it that be it but you know, we're not at that point yet until we you know, get the people understand there's General drugs aren't going to be an issue, you know, even alcohol probably wouldn't be an issue if we wouldn't feed it. You know, we don't show the kind of out ads for alcohol like we do for cigarettes, you know, and that's how you stop people from drinking and driving is you tell them the reality of it. Not that it's a the thing to do on the weekends is which is what we do, right, you know, and even you know that you're better off price off a joint and You know drinking alcohol cuz you know, it's you know, but intoxication and mid Latin comes we're came from means poison. So what can you say off? Well I have with you sober October. I haven't had any alcohol this month at all. And for me sober means alcohol, I'm I can still Vape cannabis and stuff. So well, you know your thoughts the same things with the vaping industry now, they're trying to keep you know, I don't know what the law is for buying Vapes, you know, I can't believe that twelve year old can walk into the store off of a pain but you know, if that's true that's an issue but you know vaping is substantially safer than cigarettes because of all the content of the crap and cigarettes and that's what they're going to do by prohibiting the stuff just try these kids are already addicted so they kind of go to cigarettes. Yeah, it's harm reduction, you know if you and again yep. It looks of it are always going to be there. You just have to find out how to deal with them. And I think you're right education and talking to your legislators is the place to start. We'll see where we go with it. Have you ever read? Hope you don't mind. It's a plug for a book but it's out of print a guy named Dan Baum wrote it back in I think it's nineteen mid-nineties, ninety seven or something. It's called smoke and mirrors the politics of failure or something like that or the drug war and the politics of failure and it outlines what happened back in the sixties. That's why we have a drug war if you can find that you should read it. I think I've seen it on the internet since it's out of print. I think I've actually seen it on the internet so long. I'm going to look that up. Yeah, Judy and Dan and bom ba. Um, and I've got the book here somewhere. I don't know what he did with it home. Jack where can the listeners find leap online well floor enforcement Action Partnership. Org the I'm pretty lazy and being a programmer for a bunch of years. I thought that was our original link is still active and are you on Twitter and those places? I do have a Facebook account. If you send something directly to me off. I have a jack. Wilborn law enforcement Action Partnership. Org account where they can email me and I think they get put jack. Will warn off at leap. C c and hit the same thing as you said earlier if they want to send money best places to go as go to the website and you can donate their yeah, I'd love to have your money. It's not turn away like can't guarantee. It'll go into that. Does there anything we should cover that? We haven't well generally there's a guy named Myron dead. Jeffrey Miron, that's a economist and he produced a bunch of words. He was like a professor emeritus, you know, one of the big colleges back east and he did a lot of research and stuff for the office and one of the things he said about Prohibition is we doesn't matter what you prohibit like I was saying if you prohibit something and whatever you project that is mutually, you know, the training of which is mutually beneficial between two parties in prohibition will fail so basically, yeah, so that's basic, you know, if you got something somebody else wants you can solve for more money that prohibition will fail that doesn't matter. If it's another person your neighbor your next city the next state for the next year's supply of Law and demand supplier. It's provision. It's how prohibition functions and you know, that's what people need to understand is you know, whatever. Yep. Prohibit better be worth your prohibit your provision cuz you're going to grow the problem just like we did with drug right, revealing. Demand is going to yeah, and you know the worst part that you can't get across to these people is that we have the drug problem, but now with the drug problem, we now have the criminal problem, which is the real problem. The drugs aren't the problem. The problem is the gangs deadly violence and murder associated with transportation and distribution of these drugs. That's a big perspective. I mean, it's a big Ripple that goes out from a dumb set of laws while they were, you know, if you believe that they were put there by Nexon for political purposes of then you can understand why they did it even though it was anti-American, you know, basically off our Bill of Rights numerous other things, but you know, that's the way things are done. Sometimes the politics look at it today, you know, we need to get the feds out of the drug business, you know, whether marriage On our anything, you know, and you know, I at least with marijuana we know it's pretty safe. You know, it's not like, you know, you really can't get addicted to it, you know, even though it's not physically addicted. That's how I measure it, you know, the most addictive substance on the earth is dead. So we certainly don't prohibit that know so in some of the tried and hasn't worked out too. Well, so the bottom line is what we are is Thursday. We want to let people do what they need to do let people get access to this stuff because it is safer to prevent the harm, you know, keep you from getting arrested give them the only attitude that you know have the attitude that if they have a problem they can go to a police officer. He's going to save their but That's what we want to do. We want to make we want to return the place their Warriors to their position, which is Guardians. And you know, that's kind of a bottom line of I think we're we're driving. I think that makes a lot of sense, and I think anybody would be in favor of it. I think that's a good place to wrap it up, and I want to thank you Jack for sharing a perspective. It's certainly a really important aspect of society right now. We would be in a better place if we had a sensible approach to the cannabis laws. Yeah. Thank you again for taking the time. Not a problem. You take care. You've been listening to the cannibal podcast with host Tom Stacy if you like the show and want to know more please check us out at cannibal with a K a.com. And please leave us a Revolt Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. See you next week.

FDA Nixon Brianna Taylor Jack Jack wilborne Tom Stacy Nixon Administration Harry anslinger Federal Bureau of Narcotics Dr. Timothy Leary $50,000 Marinoff 13% thirteen percent Portugal Royal Canadian Mounted Police 5% 25% Phoenix DEA
Harm Reduction in PR w/ Rafael Torruella PhD

Capt. Hunter's Podcast

51:52 min | 1 year ago

Harm Reduction in PR w/ Rafael Torruella PhD

"Hello everyone and welcome to another episode. Captain Hunters podcast the podcast that is dedicated towards bridging the divide between the police police and the communities that they serve so i WanNa thank you all for tuning in once again you are making my heart. Glad thank you so much for the love and support good and positive feedback. That has been coming in. Thank you for sharing liking and subscribing make. Please make sure that you do that if you are listening to these episodes so on the website. That's great I wanted to remember that you can download the episodes you can go to itunes. Google play spotify breaker tune in iheartradio iheartradio. Wherever you listen to podcasts at download the episodes that way you can take it with you in or share it with your friends while you're driving in your car? Tell them listening. Check check out this episode that I heard a capital hunters podcast and make sure that your friends and neighbors and co workers and loved ones. They're like in subscribe as well. Remember that you can help support the podcast then mo through cash up into paypal all of those. Cpt Al Hunter. You can go to page on page. Captain Hunter's podcast on page John and subscribe and Just about the show anything and everything that you give is only going to help to make sure that the show continues to go on and grow on. I'm going to be selling mugs and t shirts fairly shortly so be on the look those you can go over to to the facebook page. Check out the facebook page. That's where we have the shirts and mugs on display also on the website l.. Eight police training and consulting Hunter Police Training Dot Com. The website elimates police training consulting So you can check all that. I'll that's where all the products and merchandise will be at also. I want to remember that if you have a promotional test coming up in or if you want to become a police officer make sure that you hit me up you looking cover consultation services as far as Training implicit bias training or any of the topics that I have discussed on previous episodes. Hit me up your man you know we can talk about these things supervisory ethics supervision. All that kind of stuff I can help you With that so just give me a call give me a shout hit me up in the email. CPT L. Hunter at G MAIL DOT COM hunter police consulting at gmail.com. Those the email addresses also remember. You can follow me on twitter. CPT L. Hunter Instagram CPT. L. Hunter got a great episode before you today we're going to be speaking with a PhD from Puerto. Rico Dr Raphael now. Unfortunately I think that there are some issues going on with his website website at the time of that recording this episode. Hopefully it'll be up in the future. This may be due to the recent earthquakes that they've had Donna. Puerto Rico also. We're certainly wishing them the best With all that so His website is intercom videos. I N. T. E. R. C. A. M. B. I. O. S. P. R. DOT ORG into combos. Puerto Rico is the name of the corporation Dr Raphael Toyota. Oh you A is. The Executive Director of that of that organization and the organization is really just dedicated to harm reduction. Harm reduction being that PHILOSO- philosophy of meeting people where they are and helping them to Slowly and gradually escape from the death grip of drugs and Out Imagine any other vice right so I'll let Dr Tore you tell you more about him in his organization Unfortunately like I said I tried to get his bio tither other review the website at at this time and it seems to be down at the moment. However you know we're hoping that everything can get back up but I met Dr Tore you a at? They drug reform conference that I went to Saint Louis Missouri back in two thousand nineteen November two thousand nineteen we had a great conversation And we recorded awarded the episode live in Saint Louis in the hotel so there is a little bit of background noise but that does not stop the message from coming forth loud and clear. Dr Toyota is dedicated towards helping people where they are in meeting their social needs right and you meet their social needs Their the trauma of pain that they're going through and that and through the meeting those needs will be an avenue to get them off of any type of harmful and addictive of drugs and other behaviors. So that's what we got going on for today. This is a continuation of the series. We're doing about about JUST DRUG REFORM IF WE'RE GONNA GONNA meet community where we need to be. The community is going to be any better than We we need to meet them where they are. I think that that only makes sense in demanding the ending beating on our table and saying straighten up fly. Right get yourself together pull yourself over your bootstraps doesn't work all the time. And we I would question in many other experts questioning whether it even works at all. So that is the path the Duck Dettori and many other people Ayu listened to the episode with Dr King Turner. you know that this is a growing phenomenon. Harm reduction and trying to help people get off drugs and trying to help people become the best them that they can be in acquitting drugs. Cold Turkey may work for some people however It doesn't work for everyone so we we wanna meet people where they are and do the best. We can to help them to become the best that they can be so nothing me rambling on here is the interview with Dr Raphael Tore You of Intercom Combos. Puerto Rico we are at the international drug policy reform conference hosted by The drug policy alliance and catch a hunter and a have a special guest for today is names Roffe. Oh Tori way okay okay and You are with the Intercom Bells. Puerto Rico that's correct so tell us a little bit about what that organization is eh right so so I guess the first thing I say is thank. Thank you for your time and that feel very lucky to be back in my Country Bring Puerto Rico leading this amazing team of individuals that do harm reduction. That do what a likable say. Say they want to do that. We should do in society. But don't this team actually does and what what does that is. Just you know building respect with the drug using committee community building ties and building solidarity with people who use drugs actively listen to to them understand them and provide services based on evidence again being solidarity's no charity want to save the world when all WanNa save people who are dying on drugs. Of course we want to do that. But that's not the perspective perspective is there are a lot of people there that need help in our communities that have been forgotten by the government pushed aside by the government push aside by many forces in society by capitalism itself in a corner right an Puerto Rico. We're all you know win. I can tell you we've been devastated by many forces you know I would say I by colonialism. Second by okay bye race relations in party states. We don't even count right so we don't have to vote. Where do we go which is crazy in crazy relationship is? That's what it means. People are saying Johnny doesn't mean trump is our president who but we didn't vote. Oh for him. We don't have the right to vote. I mean just how can I let that sink in. We don't have the right to vote if you. US citizen moved to Puerto. Rico you lose your right to vote for is. It's not because we're both going to freeman as because you're Puerto Rican because if you move to the unincorporated territory of Puerto Rico you. Don't I have the right to vote and you have one representative to Congress. Right now is a woman. She doesn't have chicken only yell kick and scream but she has no votes. What's behind her? Nor can she vote on committees or in general right so if there's no power bro that that's that's what it boils down to end colonialism and beyond the racist classist Paul picks that rule over over the island because we are beholden to Congress period. We're under the plenary power congress. So that's a basic battle and then how does that trickle down to the reality. Or there's there's a lot of drug use. There's very a little services for drug use. Because we get blocked grants for Medicaid. We got a block grant. And then you use it. Not The exchange data data bomber. Set up you can enter into that system. We can't enter into permitted stuff moves different states. But it's not it's letting Americans agreements not in our work is working with drug users and providing them services then we provide advocacy and then we provide technical assistantship in Puerto Rico. The Caribbean and Latin America. Let me break that down services provider interchange. We go to people. If you need to arrange us we'll give you some interest dose ranges that you have that had been previously used giving us runs. I'll teach you how to shoot up correctly and you tell people how to shoot up correctly. That's crazy that's crazy but you know what if we don't do that. People are going to check wall and that's how HIV and hepatitis come into our communities. Oh do we help him get out of drugs. Yeah we do when they're good and ready as in and I don't want to be new meaning not everybody who says I want to leave drugs. Now is one hundred percent achievable. You need to prepare the person a little bit and more than anything. You need to prepare the system. Because it's not that easy we don't have access to care as in like I snap my fingers and I have somebody making this person up taking them to detox or taking them to a buprenorphine or Methadone program. I don't we don't have that. That's not available like that. There's no what we call treatment on demand so you need to. You need to be you need to make the linkage. We do that too of course meal. We have a team of three doing syringe exchange. We use pure worker so people who know intimately the problem of the drugs problem of using drugs that personal struggles community struggles that social struggles. Those are the ones that do it. I don't have to allow more people more equipped than me or any other so person that has studied people in the community need to take that on and we need to give those jobs to people in the community right that we're that we're beholden to we. We also provide along with that team a nurse case manager. We had another team that does substance users order From the beginning of Treatment Mental Health Counseling Drug Abuse Counseling and case management in order to get people who only suffer from. I'm from problematic drug use and a Corcoran disorders to have like a depression. Inciting any other Diagnosis of mental health and are homeless. We get them into permanent housing right so we got different projects in order to work with evidence and with compassion and with and from a human rights perspective to change positively the lives of these people who need help and again. And we're in solidarity we we we. We can only offer so much but we offer all that to somebody to better their lives and and that's our work and then we also advocate Kepala change because we need to educate people who are less educated. And I don't mean to community I mean. To policymakers are less least educated. The community knows until in many ways. The community knows that we shouldn't be arresting. People for small possessions of Marijuana. I mean community knows that all see makers don't get I don't want to get it right right. I don't want to change the laws so people don't have to arrest and that's what we need to change. It's important Jordan for drug user to change some behaviors and risk. And that's what we do but it's also important change the laws that are racist and don't work and are stacked against our own own communities right so we need to change that and then we're for changing battles and that's got to be incredibly difficult because as you mentioned there's no power right you have one representative a AH in because you're no voting power as far as we can vote into office so as far as the president of the Federal Right so oh that's got to be incredibly incredibly difficult so let me ask you this can can you change the laws strictly on the island so there's no war on drugs even though the war on drugs would the United States. Can you stop it as far as going on Puerto Rico but we can stop some things right. I mean we can if the federal off says you gotTa do X. Y.. Why and we have no power to change our loss ambien contradiction? Local Law cannot be in contradiction with federal. We need to follow follow federal law. That's where the power resides right but to answer your question. Yes we can change things in Puerto Rico to soften the blow of the one drug trade change in the war on drugs big and massive. It's not just about the loss. It's about markets it's about rebuilding communities. It's about now that we're creating cannabis markets letting people in that were incarcerated by the warned drugs because there were selling cannabis ver- so the Pie. Yes you were selling plan you go to jail and and and that's good. When when when it's low social economic Puerto Ricans doing it in the corner but when it's legalized for medical purposes services like we have in Puerto Rico then you get the White Puerto Rican with money coming in and the law that's ridden is taken people who have been caught the felony or around the drug world right till it straight up racist and are they keeping people out right so and those are difficult discussions because now you have a market the people who really need the money and need jobs to have small businesses? No about we'd know about cannabis can't build it because there were arrested right right when is bad. It's it's it's it's for poor communities when it's good as for more rich more white communities right in the problem Hum Dot can be fixed. Puerto Rico internal. That's our fight right. It's like well no. This is unjust. Even if we wrote it as Puerto Rican and Puerto Rico when we need to fix that We can change himself to. We can add harm reduction service programs so people say for for some people drug users bad and if it's if if that's not enough the worst would be walkout with HIV and hepatitis. C. Right So yeah there there are. Some things are under our control and that's our battle. That's why we're trying to change right as as part of a small nongovernmental organization how much power do we as an organization. Asian Community based organization have vis-a-vis. You know the Political Class Puerto Rico which is also not wanting and to change things for drug users because that many of them are deeply corrupt and like in the United States and Puerto Rican corruption has been in the news recently but it but it's still hard pool internal Puerto Rico. Talk about harm reduction. Let's turn our police officer so I'm not this whole world. It is really new to me. And I'm enjoying maxine. Join a learning about so harm reduction. What does that mean? It means that you're going to have a different look at drugs. I non non judgmental and second non criminalising right and it's understanding that not. Everyone who uses drugs has a problem. Would drug use the little addicts say correct. Correct harm reductionist China's focusing none necessarily on drug use itself but focusing on. What does that person need in order to make their quality of life and their or functionality? Better if you're not functioning in means that you're GonNa take the best of science and apply that not necessarily what you think about drugs. It would need to be done with with drug users. For example people think that tough love is the only thing a person who has problematic drug use needs but we know that a lot of tough love doesn't work actually make stuff worse worse it re traumatizes people that have been traumatized through their lives or for us in Puerto Rico by colonialism by lack of political power by lack of controlling our own future rights or its own type of messed up slavery. Right that we're living right right. So that has that that creeps into your being not having political power and be able to say where your community and your life is going going because the Fed simply simply think. It's it's not what they want right now. We're under Fiscal Oversight Board so we have seven people who are not elected by US controlling all of our finances all of our lives right and dictating policy and a lot of people turn into drug use. Were so harm reduction. Action is not judging that person helping that person be more in tune with society if they're not an helping them through when ten if they have coming from There's a lot of reasons why people turn to drugs. You have talked about cook. Colonialism the effects of that long last year the obviously my African American heritage of traumatize slavery Jim Crow. All that's our history but if that's true it's also so true. That problematic drug use also comes because of this situation is that we live in right now right which is again no control rule. You know having no access to adequate John's having no access to adequate schools not having access many times to to supermarkets you. You know for for a part of my life. I lived in in the South Bronx and I can tell you supermarkets the same thing as when you crossed over to Manhattan so it's a living conditions you're at. I'm not saying that if you had. If you don't have the right supermarket you can turn to drugs. I'm just saying I don't want to raise the living conditions that that we live in a lot of people turn to drugs because drugs work. What do I mean by that that they drugs many times? Cover things in life that we need to get covered like exciting like trauma so we turned to drugs for tons of reasons very personal reasons a very social reasons but what would actually help us get out of drugs is jobs is equality is talking about racism and dealing with racism. These many many times rugs are there to to heal wounds many times not positively. It's not the right answer but that's still reality. Value of why people use drugs to so when we talk about changing drug policies. Roseau talking about trying to build a more just world that if an African UNAMERICAN person gets caught with cocaine it's not way worse for them. That is a white person gets caught with cocaine. And you know I don't know about you. The heavens never seen a limo being stopped at certain you know what I'm saying. I could tell you what happens with right so so there's gain saying they're probably getting cooked up or whatever have you. It's privilege right so so when we talk about drugs we also talk about a more just world in many ways right so it's not this horrible living conditions that that people can overcome and then there's the other part as I mentioned before not all drug use is problematic drugs. We really need to understand for example what what's worse person smoking marijuana once or being calm and weight of the law. Aw Marijuana coming down on you and Puerto Rico's three years if you're caught if you're caught with a small amount of marijuana for personal use up to three years to detail beyond. It's not an effective way of policing or leaving for anybody right. But would you have a lot more chances. If you're poor and black than if you're rich and wait to get caught you know so when we talk about drug policies we talk about that so we thought about social the justice. We talk about you know. Harm reduction reducing the harm and not being judgmental and also changing those structures that make things stacked against some people and unfavorable to others. Yeah so yes. They're also culprits of wanting to end racism and wanting to end search. Look good thing is you gotta start somewhere right now. We're starting with drug users because you can see that the warned drug doesn't work. It doesn't work for any any of us because it's not working for anybody in Rico sound working for anybody in the United States except for those who are profiting from it right and that's what's wrong so their lofty goals but they're also have a very specific thing that we can do about it stop arresting drug users drug users that have problematic drug use do not belong along in jails and prisons deemed along. And if you have if you have a problem with drug use you belong in treatment center of your choosing what works for are you. That's where we should be investing money so our communities are more healed than just being continually pummeled by the warned drugs which we know is racist. Classes and doesn't work drugs are now more potent. Drugs are now more prevalent and anybody can get drugs drugs in Puerto Rico. Thirteen year old kid can walk up and get drugs or be selling the drugs right so the war on drugs is not working breath greg so we advocate for stuff like regulation of the markets. Marijuana people go you want to know precisely. Because I don't want kids to have access to marijuana and drugs I want to regulate the market so only people who are adults and and have like for medical marijuana have the permit and for recreational. Whoever's in adult that doesn't run counter to that system can actually access data responsible way right? 'cause then that's the way we begin Kintu Organiz and better form response. To what right now has no plan being truthful right now. We have no plan in Puerto. Rico ornelas dates to finished drug war. It's all about more policing more cops more cars. And that's part of the response but hasn't been working may types. You've talked to police officers officers and I'm like I don't know why I'm doing. We know I keep arresting kids with marijuana. It's worse for them to marijuana itself. What's worse the the effect of the marijuana which some joy and now it's medicinal so in many ways so people would actually say it's a good thing for probably not kids but arresting them? It's probably worth absolutely I can remember when one of my first experiences when I was on F. T. O.. That's training field training and I was a brand new officer and so during the process. You have to sit with another senior officer so another senior officers. is monitoring my reports seeing how I'm interacting with public and all that kind of stuff so my first arrest was a woman who was. She was probably in fifties or associated white woman and she was caught from stealing. I think it was a stop and shop local grocery store. She steals whatever she steals security catches when we get there and we had to lock her up. I'm talking to this lady eighty throat so bad for because she said she was hooked on Practices Nineteen Ninety five or so. She's hooked on crack and she in her reason for stealing feeling. Whatever she stole was so that she could get more? You know crack and I felt so bad for and it was. This was the first experience that I had with understanding outstanding the social implications of bright. So she she's stealing in order to satisfy this need but you know and then I look at also where where does the need come from. This need to write that. She masking the pain. As you talked about. Four does she go through through some type of traumatic event and I felt so bad for I had to go not what I do my job but obviously twenty years twenty plus years later. I thought at the time I see it today that this needs to stop. It needs to change. We need to divert doc so we need to make police officers not being the heart spot we can. I Say I think the police force can be guided to other issues. That need your attention. You're like in Puerto Rico. We need more police officers to focus on corruption. You know what I'm saying. Pretty sure leaders say that if you're going to say that you know and it's a different type of policing but whatever it says we're the resources go and who are resources directed to and for what the war on drugs directly to the poor black and brown communities release and as for social control because ain't fixing anything right so we need to find a fix to this right we. We need to find what works and science points a direction of how we can treat heroin users and there's a debate about how to implement before Ffynnon Methadone clinics and all that but we know Methadone work. If it's applied correctly you know and humanely and not not to be the you don't want warehousing I think people and all that you don't WanNa mess either but the medication does work. Six years of science is how to apply correct because it has the ability of getting people from that need. I need that many times pushes some people some people not everybody steals to steal and then get caught and have a run in and that's a crime and etc etc.. Methadone and Buprenorphine can help if they're used and provided correctly. Rachel so we know how to fix this but we also need resources right now. There's another I guess there's a few drugs like like Methadone. And what I understand it prickly wrong so some people who you are those who are going to for lack of better turn to lower classes and there's some socks or some other type of medication that more affluent people are are using and they get to use it at their homes in the in the. Yeah there's nothing on. And then there's people Norfolk and one has more research behind it than the other but not to say that. We shouldn't have both because I think we should method on has been more more traditionally us because it is has more evidence and it came into the market of providing treatment services earlier in states. We have about six years of of of of evidence. Ain't nothin works. Works for what it works for somebody to be in long-term medication that keeps you from meeting and to use heroin so you're literally can kick heroin by using Methadone and then the many people say well. Methadone is is addictive and yeah. It's you need the medication in order not to go back to heroin but necessarily the victim. It's your medication. A heart medication We don't say oh. You're addicted to heart medication. You need to stop heart medication. No heart medication is keeping you from dying if you have a cardiovascular disease we don't say you're oh you're you're addicted to insulin if you have problems with diabetes right but suddenly because of the stigma and discrimination say keeps you addicted. If it's Methadone right till some people are going to need medication. They go through some type of withdrawal if they've got off of them episode Nep but there's also been orpheum but a lot of people will only just medication for long periods of time and that's okay you know why because this medication keeps them focused on like and it gives them new possibilities to not wake up sick dope sick anything to go and get the same thing. We've seen I guess in some places Ah Methadone might be more for lower class and then buprenorphine for our class but at least in Puerto Rico we're have access to Methadone and buprenorphine. We now is coming more at to be more attractive now because as being applied in better ways they don't silo people so much you can have it within the privacy of your of your patient doctor relationship you know. I don't have to go to Methadone clinic every day. I can do me my medication and the the doctor can give it to you if he or she is trained and can give you up to a month so I don't have to go every day and be singled out and as as as as a drug user because I'm in this clinic and can't get jobs. Get Get thirty days. Medication can go home and take every morning or every night depending on what prescriptions and that can be an incredibly humiliating people. I had to go to this method could as police officer one of our extra duty assignments that we did for extra pay was the standby a Methadone clinic and he knows that because of the doctors whatever. Don't trust the to get the patient or the medication at one time. That's that's part of it and it's built around that has been built built around just take drug users out of regular care and put them into special clinics which had its time. It's also time to integrate services. I mean if if you go get services now that the talk is integration of services enough and it's also the integration of patience. I mean many drug users looks like you and I. They don't have to look like the quote unquote junkie a prototype and stigmatize. Look that we have in our brain. A lot of people use drugs and run into problematic drug use than you might never know 'cause they're ashamed to tell you and there's a lot of stigma and discrimination you do say you're a drug user and might not want to beat go be going to to Methadone clinic for the better ways and why built methadone. Thanks to begin with and that way we can build a system that you you have a you have problematic drug use. You can to regular doctor tell them I have this issue and the doctor should also be trained and knowledgeable or most of many of them are not most some of them are and that can do this right they can. They can actually provide medication. Interesting interesting. So talk about this Social social work so we want to talk with integration of services so somebody has a drug problem of diction whatever and we want to get them a job you want to fix fix the psychological problems the social aspects of life Prato. So this is all predicated. Aided in the there's no cure for this this is not like a wounded. Have you have in your arm and you know you you get it soda a little bit. And then you put the patch on and you'll be fine and heels. It's not like that. It's it's what we call it. Many times a chronic condition so it goes up it goes down in cycles and comes back right but you you're gonna live with it so you're not GonNa get here you just need to attend to it and working with it and how do you do that well you have a we call bio psychosocial psycho social model rather than shaming people telling them. They're not worth anything telling them died. You need to change your ways. That doesn't work that well. What actually we? We know by silence that works is bio psychosocial model which attends I hear biology biological needs that which I'm telling you Methadone Saddam Buprenorphine so you don't wake up wake up with withdrawal symptoms meeting that substance right talk to a medical doctor. They provide medicine for your condition. So you don't go back to the space you work and you need. You need some treatment. You need some pharmacological treatment. Nurses can also do this. Then the psycho. The psycho is the mental health piece when you take drugs and life is not just about medicines. We don't want to just rely on medicines. You also want to walk into a space where we can talk about frustrations I can Puerto Rico. A lot of people started taking drugs because of the hurricane. And what's happening right. So we want to talk about the trauma of going through hurricane that you didn't have power for three four five months and FEMA decided not to do anything and president trump comes in throwing paper towels do you know how damning that's shaming and that doesn't work for a lot of people that somebody there's no treatment you need space to deal with that and I I want you to. Even when you're taking drugs have alternatives to be. I WANNA I wanNA give you out of that problematic drugs so I can give you away out of having a a medication that helps you and I. I want to give you a space with with with the mental health person to talk about this and work through issues and also want to give. You've euless social which is a social worker case manager that can help you with reconnecting with your family Rican. Maybe entering into housing housing. You know having a plan about life and how you WanNa rebuild your life or maybe go back to school or maybe you know change change a little bit treatment and will work at as a group. The Bio psychosocial is an approach in order to help you with your drug use and this is well documented by science. And I'm saying I'm saying about hundred is that that works better than putting people in jail in prison. Could you imagine that all that stuff that you mentioned revolutionary but not nine so it works so much better than the people in cages but we we need to talk through it because a lot of people say well. If you don't put people in cages than what are we gonNA do right this is gonNA fall. People are robbing stealing the streets and people are going to stop selling steel stealing feeling in the street. Because it's not that I'm okay with all drug use but I think the problem of drug use in the states in Puerto Rico. It's bigger than and just putting people in agents that's what I'm saying. It's not that revolutionary but it feels that way because we've been fed this idea of drug users or just bad people people and they're not bad people there good and bad people in very difficult circumstances that should feel more real and those circumstances have ways of getting you better not worse putting people in cages worse giving people adequate human rights based health services is better. That's that's where we advocate for science base evidence base humane health services and other types of services services. That is not a far cry from what we're asking in communities in general that's not a far cry for what G Q communities are asking. That's on a far cry void AH Puerto Ricans in poor communities are asking right to why can't drug users are part of our community. We might not like it but there are part of a community is their cousins daughters brothers. There'd be we know they're not as far away person nine could be. It could be your uncle could be your parent and right Ayton. Think about the orbit of people right so you arrest on one in the orbital around them that their loved one is now in jail in prison uh-huh for petty crimes and didn't work and that didn't work and now the children are traumatize. People gotTa Stop Take Time to work traveled to go business plan and all that even they leave you have a rap sheet can get a job and you're back in and then we talk about recidivism. Imprisons Oh yeah because not only would not get jobs ops now you have eruption. You can't even get a job at McDonalds. What are we doing right so so? That's what I mean by people who use drugs And commit many times without about a nonviolent cramps. I guess it's some type of language but people who use drugs that are in need of those drugs drugs and that is the cause of why they're there. They're getting involved in different types of crime. They shouldn't go to jail. They should be addressed with humanity humanity and the best of health and the best of assistance. Not Everybody needs medication. A lot of people just need to connect. That's what an also answering would harm-reduction is connecting at a human level to know. What do you need to be better? Better could be famous and functionality. Better quality of life. What do you need? Why are you in such disarray? Why can you stop using crack and cow? Can we honestly and from a humble place not like I want to get you out and rescue when being solitary Ladera. How can how may we help? Were tell me what can we do. A lot of people are pissed off and they turned to crap let people it just pissed off and turned into the needle. Then you just need to connect. They might or might not have an diagnosis but we can work with. I'm saying that that's a better view more humane. He'll be better for US individually assess communities and US as society as we address other bigger lofty goals and putting people in occasions. That's that's all it is and and creating a more just world and again we can talk and lofty things and in poverty and racism. Because we're in that line it's not like Oh if you don't put my people in your cages that I'm good I'm all back. No I'll keep fighting because this is also also fight against racism classism right now. It's about that we're just focusing on these individuals because it's very clear that many of these people are poor poor and black and brown communities and that's our fight so we kind of jump right into the conversation so tell us a little bit about your soft. Where's your Steve Fromm where you grow up? Where'd you grow up? I'm born and raised in Puerto Rico but I was I. I was lucky that I was A. I've been able to study in different places in the United States. I studied places. I did Florida for a few years. I went to Indiana Indiana not too far from here and kind of way for a couple of years and then I did my peachy and social psychologists social psychologist gone just by training in New York City And then I did my post doctoral studies in drug use and public health Specifically in the Puerto Rican population both on the island and off the island so New York And Taoist by National Institute of Drug Abuse. And those are my studies and now I'm just privileged to have not only worked in the United States and a lot of harm reduction polices or a few harm reduction places in New York but now there's an argument. I lead this Beautif organization with amazing people that are doing that. Work in where we're from right and Puerto Rico where specifically located in which is a northeastern corner and would provide services to over ten municipalities all all around the the northeastern sector for seventy municipalities. Who provide services to about twelve and services? Means that you know being out there in our reach and difficult locations in different spots Reaching out to what some people call hard to reach populations that The language in forest is not hard to reach. Because you know there are folk now. That's that's that's that's where we are beholden to and that's what we've worked with all the time and and that's who we WANNA make sure that their lives are better do you have. What do you have anything coming out? There you're right any books literature. A website tell us how we can. We have a website. It's called P. R. Dot org become use PR dot org. And and there you can find actually one report that actually talks about how drug users drug users civil and human rights are being violated basically every day in Puerto Rico And that's one report that we're really proud of and it's part of a report around Latin America Caribbean That was published a few years back And we're always fighting for more better services and just mostly focused on changing Jane drug law center new projects coming up more and better services hopefully in the next year or so. We're going to start a new project. See how we can provide comprehensive drug user health to people in the community so we don't I wanNA wait for people to come to us but us go to them and say again basically. What do you got a medical doctor here? I got a case manager. I got multiple services right here in the community for you because many times. What were we fail as we build? These places will not import essays. This places that many times is it not open door to our communities. You know beautiful. Amazing Hospital can can be useful amazing but if if if the community entity doesn't trust that beautiful hospital over useless for us right it can do amazing research You Know Baltimore suffers from this right in their amazing researchers and all that but sometimes relationship with these amazing blazers are not that great with some communities right and the drug using community. is really got to know what you're doing so you don't read to recreate that stigma and discrimination and just to get services. The shame of it caused people to use more in your opinion highly more. They're going dark corners in all kinds of stuff seeking hope which is why you have to go to them and the policing of drug users and the laws that meantime police officers need to follow our loss. That shouldn't be there because if you are looking for people who are using drugs. I wonder those people who are using drugs. UNDERDO GONNA hide and the representation of people who are using drugs is by large negative. So you're telling person who uses drugs you're bad you're dirty clean your dirty. Nobody's dirty. Take shower this morning and clean. Do you have the resources assist. Take a shower this morning. It gives you a homeless. Let me help you let me not put you in jail. You know what I'm saying so it's not persecuting. People who ooh might have an illness right is being more humane than yes if if you believe people and look for people who are using drugs assumes people are going to hide hide. They're going to be hiding places where you can't get them. Which means many times they hide behind garbage like this was this woman told us once this amazing thing that I hadn't thought about it? But she put in a very blunt way she she used to be a sex worker and and then she just got so heavy on her drug use. I one time. She just smelled really bad to her. It's like what what what do you ne- need let me help you. We have showers and she kept turning me down. That's fine. He doesn't have to do what I say you know. It's not about that but you know I every time I just said you know we still have that shower there. Whatever you need and she just said you know what I don't want to show like what's up says because if I do people start raping me you see what I'm saying? So she was using tat dirt in order to safeguard her body in herself. That Mike and Mike in my in my my the the hair the hair on my arms standing up right now right. 'cause heavy you know people living in and those conditions are to be safe. I can identify with that. I smell I smelled marry a prostitute when we arrest them when we we hope harass them for lack of a better term right off the corner move move around and so we are really close and we would we as officers and until secret here with joke about local. Who's sleeping with his? WHO's getting letting them in the cart and so that's very telling as to why they were intentionally some cases it's okay as exactly what I want to oversell anyway? This woman says wow. That's that's the that somebody needs to be dirty to be safe. Or what are we doing to these people career as a society. I'm not saying you're aware about. We are bad in certain ways because we're not fixing that's a human being they shouldn't be in that position Taking care of brothers and sisters so they are not in that position. What happened when the we leave them behind? When was it okay to be just dirty the streets and us not doing about it and then worse at our own community sometimes turn against ourselves that way because that's our community like it or not? That's who we are. I think that's a defense mechanism. Of course to say. These people have made their choices decisions and they will have to have the choices to really make about that. That's poverty are is poverty on our choice tweet when we really careful with that. You know what I'm saying because I'm pretty sure there. There are some Republican Puerto Ricans in some High Republicans now high on trump black folks say when you're choosing that it's not enough home choosing it. Nobody chooses to be poor and dirty. And then you might y y you know that's and those are the hard discussions you know. Why why is the system so stacked up against black and Brown? It's racism let's call it for what it is and racism and lack of jobs and a lease in Puerto Rico and can talk about their dismantling University of Puerto Rico one. They're making really expensive. They're they're closing schools out in most communities around Puerto Rico. You know we're going through austerity measures and people. We're getting taxed double like very highly as their fiscal oversight. Board is trying to make the minimum wage for the youth. Four twenty five five. That's what happening. And that's not right there condemning us to more for circumstances and then we need to leap Puerto Rico. That's what you're seeing more. Oh and bigger Puerto Rican communities in Orlando and Philly. Because they're kicking us out of our own island Subic through your ties. It in it could make whatever they want with. We're having no voice on it. That's not easy right choose. I didn't choose that I know I can't go. I know I didn't vote for the fiscal oversight site board and I know drug users getting worse as the economy gets worse excellent point you got to put those dots together right and then so what's a role of police officers right and police officers are in a real pinch because you've gotta follow law but if you've got some type of consciousness you know that that's wrong that's not an easy spot but it's you know it needs to be resolved so we need to get people into community treatment before they get to drug court stem anytime so work. That's the elephant in the room that we're not gonNA work tons of money. Oh that some people graduate and do well. Yeah but for the amount of money that's being put into it compared to community treatment that we know works better and it sounds so coercive. What does a judge know about about drugs? Anyway I think I got people in my crew that no more about drugs and treatment and services then a judge I wanNA talk down on judge but judge knows about law we know about drugs right. It's very complex. Complex on won't take your time. Dr Michael Store here is certainly appreciate your time. Thank you so just talk so I want to thank Dr Tore You for being on the podcast. Thank you so much very enlightening very informative and I hope that you all learn something as well. Listen ladies this gentleman you know being on drugs and being hooked on drugs. If you've never been enough place do not look down your nose. People who have suffered and struggled August with this type of disease or or problem You know there's are systems out there that can help you so point them in the right direction. Call your local NA. I talked to someone and do what you have to do in order to help them. If you you yourself are struggling with drugs or you don't WanNa do this anymore then You know reach out for help to your local. A conic synonymous or two organizations like Intikhab IOS In realized that There is help out there for you and for your loved one. So That's ladies and gentlemen. Please make sure that you rate subscribe in share. Thank you once again to Dr Toyota And I hope that everything is okay down in Puerto Rico and I hope that You know the help gets there soon in the good qualified. How we don't need anyone going down near throwing paper towels and anyone anymore? So That's ladies and gentlemen much love and peace.

Puerto Rico Puerto Rico US officer Methadone Puerto Ricans Puerto Puerto Ricans president Rico Dr Raphael Marijuana Dr Raphael Toyota Dr Tore Treatment Mental Health Counse Captain Hunter Puerto Rico Methadone clinic facebook University of Puerto Rico
Online Treatments, Virtual Check-Ins: Dealing With Addiction In A Pandemic

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

47:11 min | 11 months ago

Online Treatments, Virtual Check-Ins: Dealing With Addiction In A Pandemic

"From NPR and WBZ BOSTON. I'm Jane Clayson. And this is on point. In the midst of the economic pain caused by the coronavirus pandemic there is growing concern that a mental health epidemic is giving rise to an increase in substance abuse and addiction across this country resources for addiction. Recovery have been depleted in towns communities and populations that need them. The most and physical distancing has constrained opportunities for the type of in person care. That's always been an integral part of effective treatment. This hour on point treating substance abuse during the pandemic with me. I from New York City. Dr Lippi Roy. She is a clinical assistant professor at the Nyu School of Medicine with a specialty in addiction treatment. She's also a medical contributor for MSNBC. Dr Welcome to one point. Nice to have you hygiene. I'm so honored to talk to you about this really critical health topic. It sure is important. let's start with the fact. That addiction was a huge concern before the pandemic how his covid nineteen created the the perfect storm with regard to substance abuse in this country. Here absolutely right. Before the pandemic we knew that twenty three of twenty three million Americans with substance use disorder only ten percent access treatment and according to the World Health Organization. Drug addiction is the most stigmatized social problem. Not even a health problem but social problem. Meaning that drug addiction is more stigmatized than poverty. Homelessness incarceration so we have a real uphill battle when it comes to getting access to treatment for people with various substance use disorders. So a lot of factors are putting people at risk right now from massive unemployment to these stay at home orders that have been keeping. Us SAFE IN. A lot of people are teetering on the brink of not only economic but psychological instability. How how does that contribute to addiction and substance abuse issues? I'm so glad you phrased it like that so to follow up on your earlier expression. Perfect Storm Covid. Nineteen pandemic has created an environment where everybody is under even more stress than normal and you mentioned environmental stressors such as unemployment food insecurity domestic violence. All of these issues were certainly stressors before. But now this pandemic has just amplified all of these These issues and we already know that stress. Environmental stressors Traumatizing experiences already. Risk Factors for drug use and addiction So we as a society really need to work harder to make sure that these vulnerable men and women get the care that they need deserve right. Because between the stigma that you mentioned the stigma of addiction And mental illness. For that matter. And the fact that you know you maybe can't pay the rent right now. You've lost your job. You can't buy food. You're struggling in so many areas like balancing act balancing. You called it balancing crystal vase on a high wire. It's such an important moment to have this conversation about addiction and what it means and what it's doing to people. Well you're actually writing and I in the medical profession like I. I'm very blunt when I give talks and lectures I. I was not trained in in doing medical school or during my medical training Everything I'm talking about now has made from on the job training so I am hopeful however that medical schools in students in residents are learning about addiction today than they were say five ten years ago. But this is you know I guess one of the positives of being the OPIOID crisis is it. It's shining a broader light on addiction more generally and if I may just take this moment to explain to the listeners. That addiction is a chronic medical disease of the rain. A relaxing and remitting disease that causes compulsive judge seeking in use to end harm to the person using despite harmful consequences to the person using bills Around him or her. It is not a sign of moral weakness or failure. Right which goes to the stigma that we were speaking of addiction is disproportionately impacting specific populations right now. People of Color Native Americans the homeless women a Leci-. Explain the demographics of this. Dr Roy Yeah. Glad you of freezed at like that. You're absolutely right on the director of night a at the National Institute of Drug Abuse Dr Newroz All cow she has been very open about stating that Certain populations as you pointed out are more vulnerable. In fact she said on her a regular blog called Nora's block. She states that individuals with substance disorder are more likely to experience homelessness or Carson than those in the general population and these circumstances pose unique challenges regarding covid nineteen transmission. A We know already that this particular virus it transmits. It's an infectious in a highly infectious pathogen. That's more likely can transmit person a person when people congregate and places like homeless shelters correctional facilities jails prisons. It's it's very difficult if not impossible to stay isolated and therefore it's you're at higher risk for getting the virus and you're already at increased risk for developing a drug addiction as well beyond those places you know speak to this. This idea that social social isolation is taking a real toll on our vulnerable. Po Vulnerable Population. A common model in the fetal field of addiction is that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety its connection so this time of isolation speak to that critical piece. Dr Roy Yeah when I learned that motto that that common phrase that's used in the addiction field. It's really not sobriety. It's connection in my my my mind just shifted and once. I started working with patients with various various stages of of substances. I really got it. I thought that those in-person Connections Building Trust which is a huge step to decreasing stigma. That's all getting disrupted now with the pandemic we in the public health community are actually telling people know stay home. Don't meet up with people. It's one thing to not do so socially but when it comes to clinical and health matters where people with. Suv addiction relied on meeting their counselors. Their doctors their nurses their care teams. Definitely now this is kkob. Nineteen isolationist is posing unique challenges. And we really need to work even harder to come up with creative solutions to make sure we're not neglecting again are vulnerable on men and women who really rely on medications in counseling to to get better. Let me bring another voice into the conversation now from Minneapolis. Minnesota Dr Joseph Lee. He is the medical director for you services at Hazelton Betty Ford one of the nation's leading addiction treatment organizations Dr Lee. Welcome to appoint nice to have you thank you. Thanks for having us on. He worked at a clinic in In Minnesota one of the largest recovery centers in the country. Give us a sense of what you're seeing right now on the front lines of addiction recovery. Well we see a lot I work with young people and young adults From across the country and we have a full continuum across the country over a number of sites where the largest nonprofit treatment organization in the country. And we're seeing a lot. We see a lot of demand we surging alcohol and other drug use and we see people paralyzed by fear. A lot of family members that I work with on the one hand at home through social distancing they're seeing the horrors and all the glory of their loved ones addiction people rummaging through their entire alcohol supply within a few days loved ones going through withdrawal leaving the house in exposing other people to risk and they. WanNa get help but on the other hand there paralyzed by not wanting to leave the home and possibly getting exposed to cope in nineteen. And so we're trying to communicate a message that there is an onramp to get help. There are various ways to get help. And there's hope and resiliency even in a dark time like this. Are you seeing patients. Dr Lee who are relapsing. Are you seeing more struggling for the first time we see all kinds and it's Incredible how covid nineteen has affected so many different people in different ways People who are pretty strong in their recovery actually have been incredibly resilient because as you Dr Roy have pointed out. Addiction is a disease that exist in isolation and loneliness and our mission is all about love and connection and healing through that and so there are people who've been able to patch together a communities and support who are strong in recovery who understand suffering and loneliness and those people are very admirable in this time but there are a lot of people who are new to recovery and They have to access virtual services or it's hard to get help. There are also people who are maybe on the warning zone for developing a substance use disorder and they relied on their jobs or an exercise. Routine or their social cliques. To kind of stay off a serious addiction and those supports are now falling apart and so we see people who are returning to use. We see people who have developed new use at are recognizing it for the first time we see people who have hidden their addiction for a long time. Due to shame and stigma and their family members are seeing it for the first time and so We're seeing all comers and covert has made it harder for many to access services like yours because so many have been laid off from their jobs right. They've lost their health insurance How do you see this manifesting itself doctor actually while manifest in so many ways and I think the two of you said it while you know one thing I say a lot is that a economic prosperity may not trickle down but suffering certainly does and it does affect certain populations disproportionately for example people? Who NEED MEDICATIONS FOR OPIOID use? Disorder are having a harder time getting it. People who need psychiatric services are having a harder time finding those services we've launched actually last year we started to work on virtual program. We've moved thousands of our patients to a virtual onramp to do intensive outpatient care group individual family treatment But you know we're a larger nonprofit. There are a lot of nonprofits who are struggling with the infrastructure and the platform. The stigma leads to a lack of resources. Both in terms of access and insurance for for people who WanNa get help but also just the infrastructure's net well-supported so people aren't finding a lot of venues to get the help so these times are making it hard for a lot of people in the community and the demand is huge. That man is huge on a lot of people are struggling Dr Joseph Lee In Minneapolis the medical director for you services at Hazelden Betty Ford one of the nation's leading treatment centers for Substance Abuse Addiction. Our other guests. Dr Lippi Roy Clinical Assistant Professor at Nyu School of Medicine Specializing in addiction treatment. Dr Roy Dr. Lee's stick with me Listeners were discussing substance abuse and addiction during the pandemic much more. Calm Jane Clayson. This is on point. We'll be right back WanNa add more positively to your podcast feed checkout kind world stories of extraordinary kindness and compassion. That's kind world. Subscribe now on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen. This is on point. I'm Jane Clayson. Were discussing the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on addiction. And how to find help during this period of physical and social distancing with me this hour Dr Lipa Roy clinical associate professor at Nyu the Nyu School of Medicine with a specialty in addiction treatment. Also Dr Joseph Lee Medical Director for Youth Services at Hazelton Betty Ford one of the nation's leading addiction treatment organizations. Let me play this clip from one of our on point listeners. Lisa who identifies as an alcoholic as an addict Has Eleven years sobriety. She left us a message about her experience. Staying sober during the pandemic in cross from other people have been really difficult I don't feel the need to use today. And have a great network of people through zoom but That is not the case for many people right now and one thing that is very difficult for me and I'm sure many of the rest of us is the constant joking at were home now. Let's get drunk in the middle of the day on twitter and on commercials and and it's sort of like was the pandemic joke on everyone's first sight fleeting that it's happy hour all the time at home. Raise your glass on Zoom Dr Roy. Blots jokes lots of twitter jokes Social Media Jugs Right now about you know quarantine knees and zoom happy hours drinking before noon But it's not a joke for a lot of people who are struggling with sobriety who are addicts. Speak to that piece. That cultural piece of this. Dr Roy Yeah I am. You're absolutely right at Jane. This is not a joke at all. This is actually a chronic illness. And as this caller pointed out The the struggle is daily. It's it's sometimes it's hourly and to Dr Lee's point we really do see a spectrum. People are all stages of their of this of this illness. But but I do congratulate this caller on her recovery. But Yeah it's been a lot of people get into side who just don't take this seriously But let me also just point out that vast majority of people who used to drink alcohol dussault recreationally and don't go to develop addiction but for those who do it's a struggle and we do need to take it seriously. I'm glad that Dr Lee brought up alcohol because what we've actually seen is at alcohol. Sales and consumption have substantially increased in most areas of the country during the pandemic and. I anticipate that we're going to find increased alcohol associated with fetal opioid overdoses as well as an increase in detox admissions. Dwi's and other alcohol related complications so we need to really be aware and address these issues. Dr Lee that's a really important point. Alcohol Sales Dramatically during the pandemic in this country is it possible for people who are drinking heavily and consistently During this pandemic develop a problem they didn't have before yes. There are many people in society who are at risk that may actually not develop any disease and that goes for hypertension and diabetes that genetically or otherwise they might be at risk for for whatever reason or simple luck. They don't develop the symptoms that are concerning so there are a lot of at risk warnings on people who have increased their drinking or other drug use and that could be a problem and we know through history that In Economic Downturns in difficult times in our country used as pick up constantly and we know that external triggers like stresses and difficult societal times Often caused a return to us or exponentially higher use. And so we do expect that as this covid nineteen course courses down a little bit. We're going to see an uptick in demand There may be a lot of lives lost and a lot of lives. Destroy- destroyed along the way I just want to also add for caller Just that I just admire so many people who are in recovery right now because if you heard her she also has a mind for feeling other people's cup and so even though she's talking about her distress she's able to empathize with how other people might be struggling with their plight. And NOT GETTING THAT RESILIENT HELP. That's really an important point Lisa thank you very much for your call and Dr Lee you talked about. And Lisa mentioned this. You know the being cut off from people the isolation the loneliness. It's one of the key risk factors triggers for substance abuse. What do you tell people about that? What do you tell your patients Dr? You I yeah you know. When would people should understand that as addiction develops? There's a lot of shame about the Houston. So people start to hide things in their secrets and so even if they're socializing with people they have a secret life in that double life and then who they are? There's a gap between that that really grows and stretches and then finally breaks. That's when usually people get help and I think in her covid. Nineteen pandemic lot of people are experiencing the same thing. They're experiencing similar levels of loneliness a lot of people in their homes and I hope that at the end of this. We don't take for granted. How important connection and how important we are to each other. Because I think we have taken that for granted and it's reflected in our social discourse and all the issues that we talk about these things so vital. A lot of people are trapped in their houses with anxiety and fear. There may be reading the New York Times way too much and wondering. Am I the only person like this? And there are a lot of people who see family members using or they're using themselves and they have no reference point. There's no ability to connect and say yeah me too and so it's so important for people like Lisa to share their story to show that. There's hope I keep hearing the words. Shame stigma shame stigma in this conversation. It such an important point to stop attaching these moral judgments to those who suffer with addiction and often an underlying mental health condition. Dr Roy Substance Abuse is is so often symptom. It's not the underlying problem. You're absolutely right Jane. One of the many lessons I've learned from my learning more about addiction and really from my patients who've just always been my my best. Teachers is that it's all these underlying stressors. In events traumatizing events stressful Difficult circumstances that really are posed there the roots of developing addiction. You know substances such as Alcohol Heroin. Cocaine even behaviors like the devices gambling. They're not the true cause of addiction. It's the events Traumatizing event like Pandemic Unemployment Divorce Hurricanes Abuse Physical Sexual Verbal Dis environments triggers. Dean can lead to people self medicating their pain and suffering. And that's why they sometimes resort to things like alcohol and other substances so but stigma really is a barrier to care Jane and we need to really address. That in one way at all of us can do so as just by our vocabulary studies by people in. Boston suggests rich states Boston medical and John Kelly and read Sarah Wakeman at mass general have shown that when we just change vocabulary and instead of saying drug abuse or substance abuser say a person with a substance use disorder or instead of saying your urine as dirty senior year in its positive studies show that we use less judgmental more compassionate language people are more likely to get care and it improves the therapeutic relationship between clinicians and patients so interesting well. This conversation has touched a nerve with collars round the block here. Let's get I To Janesville Wisconsin Laura's on the line. Hi Laura Welcome to the program. Our y'all today. I wanted to touch base on the OPIOID use. Travel that this country's experiencing I was on Methadone for many years in Baltimore Maryland I was able to get onto a drug called suboxone which has been very helpful for me. I'm very upset that this country is unable to provide those drug essentially free of charge to people. It's been out of study now long enough. I mean And I just it concerns me greatly that That people that are running into financial issues in the span make are now not able to get this job because it is a very expensive drugs. It's expensive and it's hard to get Laura. Thank you so much For that call an stay. Well Dr Lee speak to that point these drugs that are so helpful to those who are struggling. Not only did they cost a lot but you can't get them especially now that's right. It's downstream problem. Also rooted in stigma. Stigma isn't just about personal shame or judgment from other people or your friends. Stigma has to do with resources and infrastructure. If you walk into a beautiful hospital and you want to get care for mental health or addiction issues for your loved one and you walk into this beautiful hospital and beautiful building and you ask for Mental Health Addiction Services. You're going to get sent to the Bat Back Annex. And that's what most people in America experiences that or the basement right. That's right that what they suffer with is a second class disease for a second class citizens right and when you have that kind of infrastructure as we're all vigilant about Kovic and we're planning around what to do for this emergency and that people with addiction and mental health issues fall through the cracks and so the callers absolutely correct. We have to do more to make it easier for people to access these medications and other routes for Recovery Dr Roy so. I'm so glad that Laura brought up this important point. I will stay that I. I'm hopeful that now. Because of the pandemic federal agencies have actually loosened some restrictions which were always archaic to begin with so samsa substance abuse and mental health services. Administration now allows patients to take home treatment courses. Have Methadone for two weeks or longer and rather than making them go every single day to again to Dr Lee's point at the fact that we have Methadone treatment problems where people have to go. We don't make people go every day to pick up their insulin for their diabetes. So why are we doing this for over use disorder and the DA has also allowed for a federal rules have loosened in that they do not require an in-person consultation to initiate Buprenorphine suboxone. That's again movement in the right direction. I mean upbringing. Another voice in here from New York City. Mj GOTTLIEB he's cofounder of Lucet. An APP created to help anyone in need of resources in community to navigate addiction and substance abuse. Mj Ali Welcome to point. Thanks so much for having me so eight years sober. Congratulations I t t your mind. has the coronavirus created new challenges to two attics and new challenges to staying sober one hundred percent. You know when we enter early recovery. The one thing that we say not to do is to ever sell self isolate and here we are so you know. There's a saying those amongst us. No explanation is necessary. Those not amongst us no explanation as possible. The challenges within the addiction community right now self-isolation is just astronomical right now and so to that point you have created an APP which is especially useful now. The APP called Lucid L. O. D. Tell us what you were trying to accomplish in how it's being helpful right now. Well you you hit it right on the head when you said kind of. The opposite of addiction is connection. It's all about connection and engagement and knowing that you're not alone so what we've seen since. Kobe is a dramatic increase in specific sections of the APP That catered to our hotlines and groups I think it was one thousand nine hundred and seventy percent increase in the first three weeks because people suddenly weren't able to have that connection so they had to move virtual now you could go to twelve step groups which. I'm a huge advocate for. But you can only go to so many per day so we have over a thousand routes within Lou said whether it's Sobriety anxiety and depression or daily gratitude or hotlines I'm having a bad day just relapse and need advice and meaningful conversations can happen and it's just so important to have that connection engagement. Show people that they are not alone. So thousand different groups on Lucid MJ GOTTLIEB. And as I understand it. Hospitality workers especially came to your APP in large numbers after restaurants closed by the hundreds by the thousands of people lost their jobs. So there was a direct correlation. You can see it. Mj right away right away so very sadly hospitality being hit I. We saw people coming into the hotlines. Unfortunately looking to Overdose and kind of put themselves out of their pain and it was. And so you here you had this about sixty three thousand people on the APP coming in when someone would share. Hey you know I just I don't know what to do. I can't take it and then people would jump in and say. Hey I understand. I lost my job to. Here's what I'm doing and so it's all about you know surrounding yourself with a community who gets it and has that identification because Also in the hospitality industry. You know the the addiction rate is so high that they were going into a lot of the treatment centers and the treatment centers. Didn't know whether or not people were coming in. Because they were dope sick or they had corona so there was a bit of a bottle neck there. So it's been a very very big challenge. So are these technology tools as effective. Mj Are they as effective treatment. Options for for staying sober for recovery treatment as in person as sitting in a meeting as being in a treatment center vay are Let me tell you why I think they're complementary but in my eight plus years of sobriety. What high found is when you relapse when you feel like using Nine Times out of ten the EGO gets in your way and you don't WanNa call your sponsor. Do you don't want to call your friends. You don't WanNa call your network because you're ashamed. We talked about shame right and we need to kill that stigma. And so what you're able to do is you're able to tap into a group of you know Dow's tens of thousands of people who don't know you but they understand exactly what you're going through and you're saying hey I just relapsed and there's no judgment because you're not into being afraid that your friend or your family member or your sponsor or member of your group in a twelve step fellowship is GonNa Judgy Open So yeah unfortunately. That's the case. I'm Jay last question. What do you want people listening to know about the struggles of addiction especially during this time of pandemic? Let's we may be physically distance right now by you are not alone. the The level of connection is there you just need to reach out and find it used virtual communities. We have virtual events that you can attend in the APP. There's incredible things that people are doing. We bring anything and everything that we can for people that are doing things in the sober sobriety and wellness space into our APP to give things you know people things to do and to connect and engage and one other thing is service keeps you sober so one great thing is go. Call your friend who may be struggling. Call Your aunt your grandmother your mother. Someone that may be vulnerable to cove Ed and reach out and you know show service keeps you sober and Jake gottlieb eight years sober and Co founder of Lucid. An APP created to help anyone seeking help for addiction and substance abuse. Mj great work. Thank you so much. Thank you very much Dr Roy. Dr Lee's stick with me listeners. Were discussing the treatment options and resources available for Substance Abuse and addiction during the pandemic and Jane Clayson. This is on point. We'll be right back. Need to escape the news for a moment checkout endless thread a podcast from wb you are and read it from mysteries to histories two stories that will remind you of our shared humanity. Subscribe to endless thread on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen. This is on point. I'm Jane Clayson on Monday on point. We're discussing the historical forces behind George Floyd's killing by the police in Minneapolis. What conversations are you having around these incidents in your house holder in your community would love to hear your story one eight one six one seven three five three zero six eight three and we'd love to hear from you today. We continue our conversation about substance abuse and addiction during the pandemic and how this period could be an opportunity to improve long-term care for those struggling with us. Dr Roy Clinical Assistant Professor at the Nyu School of Medicine with a specialty in addiction treatment. And Dr Joseph Lee Medical Director for Youth Services at Hazelden Betty Ford one of the nation's leading addiction treatment organizations. Let's go to the phones. Chris's in Glencoe Oklahoma. Hi Chris Welcome to appoint hello. I just had a comment. I wanted to point out I don't feel being an alcoholic Recovery now for nineteen years makes me a victim. I know by using the tools of the program. I think I'm in a lot better shape and I think that Relying on medication and lots of meetings and frequent contact is very helpful. You know for six months a year. Maybe even up to two or three years in the program but for but individuals sooner or later all of us addicts alcoholics. We need to Start getting some emotional and spiritual tools to life on life terms and if we do that You know two years. After they came out diverse book on twelve step programs our country went to a war and and we found that you know. Alcoholics were did at least as well as any other group and combat and they were white from meetings for a long period of time. So if we if we reach out to people if we do our own personal step work at home if we if we pray and meditate and stay in service Take life on life's terms. We're going to be just fine. Thank you so much for the call. Dr Lemme turn Chris's point to you. There's Chris cleaned nineteen years. You've said people who are early in recovery. Maybe have a harder time connecting with the care that they need during Cova. Those in recovery. Longer like Chris Maybe navigate perhaps a bit easier. Is that right Don Dailey. That's absolutely right. There are people who are new to connecting in that kind of way in a personal way getting the spirit of volunteerism community empathy. And they're just learning the language and so for them sometimes. Virtual interface is good. It's certainly better than nothing and it's definitely going to be here to stay. It's a good thing for consumers and patients but it can be hard however I think the positive point is that people like Chris a beautiful in their recovery. Mj sharing their story in a Pre Cova Times. I'd give him Jane Chris a fist bump and a hug if they'd let me because what you hear over and over again is they're not victims people who are in recovery for a long time. They're part of the solution. They are willing to give it forward. It's like a big circle. Dave experienced suffering and loneliness. They've been steeled by their experiences and they WANNA give back and love the community. And that's what you hear over and over again and I hear that in Chris testimony and what. Mj's doing for the community and that's what recovery's about when we say he's in Betty. Ford Love Connection Empathy being humble passing on the gift of grace to other people. It's not hyperbole. It's something that we really try to live up to and that's what so many people are doing in. Mj Gut leaves apparatus going there and trying to support others. Not just going because you need help. But go in there to to to support others and I'm curious about These APPs about telemedicine about about that. During this time of social and physical distancing many state medical boards have loosened restrictions on telemedicine during this pandemic. Talk about that. Is this an effective option for addiction? Recovery Dr Roy. Yes absolutely of but let me just quickly add to that Collar Chris. First of all congratulations on his long term recovery. But just as I don't look at my patients with congestive heart failure and Lupus and kidney disease as victims nor do I look at people with addiction as victims. Either they have an illness which they are getting treatment for and that's how it should be viewed. That's another way to reduce the stigma and to integrate it in mental healthcare into general medical care. Primary Care And right now in the in the era of Kobe end quote unquote isolation. We really need to utilize a telemedicine. Tele Psych Services But that also means making sure. That patients clients Have access to ipads in telephones and on the other on the provider side. We also need to make sure that insures including state Medicaid programs reimbursed clinicians for telehealth and telephonic services. The same way they did for in person visits telehealth telemedicine Dr Lee Effective Treatments Especially during pandemic absolutely. It's a great on ramp for people. There's so many cultural variables that change you. Know How like when we learned about the rules of social media and how it influenced people's behaviors Virtual care is here to stay and that's a win for America because there are a lot of people who don't have transportation who are rural areas. I see a lot of young people. I never thought I'd be the old guy who didn't know how to use technology but these young people are so good at it and I work in brick and mortar. I see really acute sick patients on a residential side in person with our nurses psychologists and other doctors but I also do virtual care and there are introverted. Shy anxious people who feel tremendously empowered. Actually by the virtual experience. Now I'll say as a clinician. I like to read all the body language and the micro expressions because I'm a child psychiatrist and that's what I do and so for me. It's a little bit different than the virtual care from the patient side. I hear some empowerment day like a little bit of a barrier in their pajamas and the comfort. They're living room. They're much more assertive. Because we take for granted. Also related to shame and stigma. How difficult it is for some people to come to somebody's office. Meet with Dr Clinician. That can be very intimidating and those thresholds have been lowered so there's all these winds along with the tragedy that I think virtual care will help with our recovery. Go Platform is privacy. Law compliant were not doing zoom or skype But a lot of other places could use help in that infrastructure both for on the reimbursement side but to get it launched as they're underfunded a lot of clinics have to rely on zoom skype and other things because they don't have the infrastructure to build the privacy compliance services people desperately need right many treatment centers Dr Lee Across his country are at a disadvantage this period because they're already under resource they're already underfunded and less able to adapt and sort of pivot to this crisis moment right absolutely. They're already under resource to start with. They can't find mental health professionals to work there. The talent pool the resources. They're under fire. All the time and I work in the nonprofit sector so I understand this very well and so when something like Kovic hits their underwater far more than other people and so you talk about p. even for example you know people in a treatment setting hospitals are having a hard time getting P P imagine what. Treatment centers are going through to try to screen and keep people safe. It's really hard back to the phones. Stephanie in Kingsborough Massachusetts Hi Stephanie. Welcome to the program. Hello thank you so much. Thank you go ahead. I had called Just in response to the last caller Chris I believe and You know he'd been talking about trying to find that spiritual connection and you know my comment was especially during this pandemic being outside for me and to connect to fix something other than me and get out of my own head has been probably the biggest health and think we've been nice though So you know and I did end up Having a little bit of a relapse during this epidemic. And it's been it's been difficult but that's the nice weather has started You know that's been helpful. And you know so. I think if anyone can connect spirituality or whether that is just going outside and connecting with something that is beyond you bigger than you. I think. That's helpful Stephanie. Thank you good luck to you. Dr Roy what are you say to Stephanie? Well thank you Stephanie. For calling and sharing that I a common motto actually amongst the harm reduction community is meet people where they're at so when I find meet people like Stephanie or other patients or clients asked what do you enjoy what would what brings you calm It could be going outside going for a run. It could be going to your favorite pizza place which may not be an option now. But it's about meeting people where they're at asking them. What can I do for you? You know giving back. What's you know patient autonomy and kind of working as a team? Unfortunately the field of medicine is can be a little hierarchical. You know. I'm the doctor. You're the patient you need to do what I say. But that that type of philosophy isn't effective So listening to patients in what they need and helping them get get to that point especially now in this Pandemic era when we just need to be more creative and innovative. Here's a listener from Saddle Borough Vermont Who told us she wants to remain anonymous but she left us a message describing her struggle with Polonia disorder with bulimia disorder during the pandemic. Here she is being isolated in quarantine has in many ways than I really terrible experience because the loss of my daily structure of work of exercise and Seeing my partner since I'm isolated without him has really made it much harder to Manage a disorder that I've been able to manage in the past without it taking over my life Dr Lee another important Point about the loss of structure and routine for anyone who struggling with addiction or a behavior disorder. Actually that's right. It's exactly what we talked about. And what you find with Hypertension is that it often comes along with high cholesterol and so a lot of diseases coming together and believe it or not addiction and mental health issues come together sometimes have similar sources and so a lot of people who struggle with mental health issues are eating issues struggle with addiction and vice versa and And these are the people who fall through the cracks when they're structure their support steamed seems to fall apart. They have a harder and harder time as I want to thank the caller for sharing their story because what it does for people is there are other people who are alone and trapped in their houses and in their minds wondering is this struggle mind to bear alone and it isn't and even Stephanie who called in. It was a beautiful and resilient message because what? She's basically saying I heard from her is. There's no shame in return to us. You just get back on track. There's a lot of love and connection for you. That's right back to Beth in Ellicott city Maryland. Hi Beth you're on the air. Hello I I really have enjoyed the show today and Dr Lee. I could really relate to what you said about the secret life. I had one of those I'm in recovery. Fourteen years from the disease of alcoholism and Started a nonprofit here in Alex city called so bar. It's a play on the words sober and bar and one of the things that we do in taking non alcoholic bars to public social events and creating alcohol. Free events is to try to break that cycle of shame and stigma So many times like when I would be early and not drinking people would say to me when I wouldn't take a drink of alcohol. They say what's wrong with you and that's like the it's like a that's part of what's going on in our society people are almost shaming you for not drinking so. I really appreciated the show today and Word trying to find creative ways to do our work during the pandemic selling so far in a box and creating virtual happy hours alcohol-free thank you thank you very much for the call really important what. Beth and others are doing doctor. Roy Dr Lee. You have said both we should not let this pandemic go to waste that. This is a golden opportunity to actually make some some changes. What do you mean by that actor Roy? You're absolutely right You know there's nothing like a pandemic to expose the existing cracks in the US healthcare system. We've already talked about a few of the areas. Such as some the rather archaic laws and policies which now federal agencies are are are loosening restrictions for access to medications. So that's one another one is really really utilizing telemedicine virtual care. I love the line that Dr Lee said which is virtual cares here to save. He's absolutely right and really using this opportunity to connect in ways that are creative of that are innovative and for for all of the different parties from policy makers to healthcare providers the social services housing criminal justice. All of us really need to come together to get people the care that they need and deserve. I think this pandemic is showing that Dr. Are there permanent changes to regulations that have been temporarily suspended by by the Drug Enforcement Administration? That that you suggest at this time. Yeah I think making it easier for people to access medications opening up services in greater access so that people can get help making sure that insurers and other people are accountable to parody that that they really offer the same level of services that if somebody didn't take care themselves in at heart disease they go beautiful hospital and they get taken care of really well but you know if you have an addiction in your genetic loading and you had a lot of adversity and trauma and you go to an Er. You're given the stink eye and that's not right and I think culturally speaking. There's tremendous optimism for change in my heart. Because I know there's a lot of tragedy but we've had a lot of in America and I think we've come out better for it. I think we know pre-coded what the issues are Economic disparities racism lack of parody and treatment. We know what the issues are but I hope the how changes and I think people in recovery are leading the way because willing to give back and showing again I keep using the word love but it keeps showing it with love and empathy had a guide people through this so that we don't take each other for granted each other's narratives that we walk individual lives in that we heal together not just as the recovery community but as a society and I hope that something that we never lose from the code pandemic and wouldn't it be nice if the medical conversation about the pandemic could broaden out to a mental health discussion and by extension addiction in this country. Doctor Roy. You're actually right. Jane know I think the only way to move the needle forward When it comes to Both addiction and mental health care is through science and storytelling provide the most updated data in research and science. But also have people like j like Stephanie. Chris all your callers. Share their stories of recovery resilience return to use a relapse is expected. That's okay but we need to share those stories. Sharing Stories is the most important thing to do the only way Dr Lee. I'll give you the last word here in our last minute To remember about this conversation about Substance Abuse About addiction during this time during this pandemic and moving forward you know. It's not lost on me that today. It's a very tragic time for Minneapolis with the with the killing Mr Floyd and everything that's going on and that added on top of Kogo Nineteen people struggling with addiction or mental health issues. My heart goes out to you. I have such love for the recovery community and my message is basically that. We're GONNA come out better for this. I think because covid nineteen can affect everyone. There's the potential for us to have greater empathy for each other's journey and to really start taking care of each other and I think there was something that was fractured in our social dialogue prior to Kobe. And I hope we fix it. I hope we do things with greater love and empathy for each other beautifully said Dr Joseph Lee Medical Director for you services at Hazelton. Betty Ford. Thank you so much for your time today. Dr Louis. Thank you Dr Roy. A clinical assistant professor at the Nyu School of Medicine with a specialty in addiction treatment. I appreciate so much your words Dr Roy. Thank you for being here with us today. It's been a pleasure. Jane thank you and listeners. Thanks to you for your calls for your input for your stories. Thanks for listening. Continued the conversation. Get the endpoint podcast at our website. On Point Radio DOT ORG. Follow us on twitter. Find US on facebook at on point. Radio had good week and Jane Clayson. This is on point.

Dr Joseph Lee Dr Lippi Roy Jane Clayson Nyu School of Medicine Dr Lee Minneapolis Roy Dr Lee Jane Dr Roy Jane Chris Medical Director America Dr Roy Yeah Stephanie Us New York City twitter Mental Health Addiction Servic Dr Roy Dr. Lee
Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

5:02:45 hr | 2 years ago

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

"Don't let this summer pass you up powered up in the five hour energy tower up your summer sweepstakes, you can win one of five amazing experiences by any five hour. Energy product including cherry, extra strength snap a picture of your receipt, and send it in, because it's about time you had the dining your life, power up your summer with five hour, energy. No purchase necessary. Sweepstakes ends July fifteen twenty nine nineteen must be resident h eighteen years or older to winter. For official rules. Visit WWW dot five h win dot com. Void where prohibited. Sponsored by letting essentials LLC. Let's say you just bought a house. Bad news is you're one step closer to becoming your parents, you probably moat along and skiff anybody noticed you mow the lawn till people to stay off the lawn. Compare it to your neighbor's lawn and complain about having to mow the lawn again. Good news is, it's easy to bundle home and auto through progressive, and save on your car insurance, which of course, we'll go right into the lawn. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurers discount on stage situation. Was my own joke ins and watching the able to learn from him and model myself actor him sons of his leadership and management style. I was very fortunate. I looked at the halfway through my NFL career I was captain of the Redskins and he came to me, a lot and other teammates though. The one thing that really stands out about Joe Gibbs as open management style talk is willingness to talk to players on a weekly basis. He'd sit down me and say, you know what the thinking what kind of things can, we do, just a great communicator, a great leader? And you know, I've tried to incorporate in my management style. A lot of things that I saw learn from jobs. You know, one of the things that I've always heard about him. And when I've talked to him on a one to one basis I came away with the same impression. Mark. I came away with two things one he was very good communicator, which. I think is important when it comes to any business, but also in football where players want to know what their roles are. And the other was simply the fact that he was very, very organized are those two words that you would apply to him as well. Mark. Absolutely. And and you know, I think he's he never was looking out trying to get the credit himself. He's great evaluator of not just football talent, but people and an very good motivator. And you know it's, it's amazing. You know, look, I mean, how many people have had the kind of success that he's had in two completely different fields. You know, the in the NFL, and then now success in Africa. And you know, the, the one common is him and his leadership and management style. I always wondered how he dealt with the I'm gonna use the word interesting, interesting personalities. That he had on those Redskin teams waste sure did. But now again with a tribute to him. I mean, he could relate to all types of people, and new knew how to motivate people, and just, just a great person, and, yeah, you know, you think back, I mean, you know, John, Reagan's and Dexter, Manley and jokes is and he knew how to what, what buttons to push and how to motivate people. Let me ask you about the season in which you guys win Super Bowl. Number seventeen. What was the catalyst in your mind Mark for the team's success? That season. Well, you know it's funny. I say it was nobody, we're not speculations. We had finished the season song in nineteen eighty one. You know, we were sickly was out of that started only five as I said, and then then we finished finished eighth date. So we're eight and three over the second half of the second part of the season. And then if you're a number nineteen eighty two had a long strike. So we started two games play two games. And then what has a weeks strike, and I just remember, you know, it was very difficult time every year in the labor situation like that. But we came back and we just were on fire. And I think it's probably no coincidence, that Joe Gibbs teams one two for bowls in both of the strike. Here's nineteen eighty two and nineteen eighty seven and you know our team came to. Gather, you know, during the psych we, you know, we did didn't have a lot of actions. We didn't split the team apart and came back and just kept playing well. We ended up the regular season. There was were shortened season. We were eight and one and it was all kind of a blurred just happened so fast. But it was really an exciting time in Washington. You know the they had different playoff system. They had sixteen teams and made the playoffs. So we they call it Super Bowl tournament. We had three straight home games at RFK and, and then know von by before the Super Bowl in didn't have a week in between. So we want to ride away when right out to Pasadena and played and really, really exciting exciting times, and it was just great to be able to come away with a Super Bowl championship. Mark was there a particular game or moment during that Super Bowl winning season that you think was really important for propelling the team to the ultimate success than it has? Because I know in talk. The players are or even head coaches. They'll point to one particular moment that they think was important. What was it for the Redskins? Well, you know. The gain that I remember the most was the NFC championship game, you know, and I have said, you know, the Super Bowl right? And, you know, obviously, you know, the number one spectacle, and all professional sports, but there is something special about winning and NFC champion or a conference championship game in front of your own fans. And bag year, we played the Dallas Cowboys archrival hated hated enemies play down that home in our K and RFK stadium. It was just a great place to watch football and the stadium literally was rocking. It was the fans would stand the whole game and they bounce up and down. I remember looking up at the stands and seeing all of the sands going up and down. It was just an electric atmosphere and, and exciting. And I, I think that game really propelled the Redskins to great success over the next, you know, five ten years, just the fans and the players just had tremendous confidence that they were gonna play well and a lot of it is that home field advantage, that, that they had K stadium. You went to Colgate university. So I wasn't surprised to see that you played safety in the National Football League because I really felt that you looked upon it as probably being a quarterback on the defensive side. You'd like the analytical aspect of playing football in my correct. And then observation Mark. Yeah. Yeah. That's another way, wasn't very talented. No. I I I was very fortunate. I had a great career and I wasn't signal call I called all the signals on for the Redskins defense and made the adjustments. I worked very closely with our defensive coordinator man by name Richie. Richard pettibone and yeah. I, I really enjoyed it. I, I love my career, and to me, the most fun of football was the strategic aspect of, you know, the making the adjustments. And, and I studied a lot of film back then and studied teams tendencies. And it was really fun. When you could kind of unlock some of the keys to your opponents and make plays based on things that you anticipated or studied on film. And now I like like you, you said that was not exciting times in the Redskins. And I was. Really excited and pleased to be a part of it all the famous Joe Morgan once said to me, Mark that he started preparing for retirement. The first day he started playing. And I'm just wondering as you transitioned through your eight year career in the NFL tell me about what it was that drove you in the direction that you automatically ended up in as an athletic director at Colgate in northwestern. And now is the CEO and president of the Green Bay Packers. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. Well, first of all, a couple of things, you know, I was not drafter. So I came in the league as an undrafted free agent. So. No, I never really felt that, you know, certain that I'd be on the team. So I was always trying to further myself in the offseason. I had jobs ended up getting my master's degree from American University in business while I was playing with the Redskins. And yeah, you know it's funny how you, you never know how your careers gone full. But what was? Really helpful to me was my time with the Redskins. I, I took a very active role in the players association and that was, I think it really was the best thing I could have done in terms of my career after football. It really made me start thinking to myself as something other than football player, and they contacts and connections with people that were very helpful to me. And, you know, I mean, and then allowed me to get my first job right after my career, ended, I went to work for the NFL players association and that really spurred my interest in law school. And while I worked at the players association, I went to school in the evening and then after a lottery worked as a trial attorney from just parliament really enjoyed that but I did miss my moment athletics. And then when the opportunity arose to become the athletic director Colgate, university, my daughter. Jumped at it. Mark Murphy with us. He's the president and CEO of the Green Bay Packers. But also played eight seasons won a Super Bowl championship of the Redskins. 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Don't wait another minute to see if you may qualify for your social security disability benefits called pinnacle disability group at eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one for your free case evaluation, that's eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one. Call now. This is America sports talk show sports. Byline USA. Here's ron. There's a very interesting book out about a very interesting personality and coach. He's very successful two time. Superbowl winning coach Bill Parcells the author of that book is Carlo devito, and it's simply called parcels biography, first of all, Carlo, I'm touched by the fact that this book is two hundred ninety five pages long, but it also has some forty four pages for attributions and sources. What does that say about Bill Parcells what you've written here? Bill parsoes been around for a long time. And one of the things that I think, is really sort of important for people to realize is one of the things that he comes from very tight-knit established family that had a very high level of success. And then it goes all the way back to father, who was all American Georgetown's. The other side of it is here's a guy who spent fifteen years in the college ranks long before he got to the pros coach places like FSU Vanderbilt, Texas West Point. He had built a quite the career and it'd become a head coach at the air force before he made his jump to the NFL. So you're talking about a guy who hasn't been incredibly lengthy career and had a direct lineage to of insulin Bharti. So really fascinating guy. How hard was it for you to write this book? I mean how much cooperation did you either get from Bill? Maybe. None at all, or from other people willing to talk about him. It is an unauthorized biography. But if you even with that, there were great number of people who I talked to going all the way back to his high school basketball coach and then talk with some of his original college players from when he first started coaching his first year of college coaching all the way through to Steve, Nelson of the patriots several New York Giants etcetera. So talk to a lot of people he it unauthorized, if he did not participate. But a lot of people were willing to talk to me, reporters, etc. Plus, I did a lot of research, here's somebody who's first touchdown pass was recorded by the New York Times. So that goes all the way back to that. And obviously a lot of pieces about his father, and his brother who was a, a tremendous ballplayer at West Point. Yeah, let's go back to the very beginning because I found over the years that when we talk about dominant personnel. It usually starts at the foundation, and that foundation is how they grew up and where they grew up indeed. That's the case. With Bill Parcells fill in the blanks for me a little bit. Well father is probably the best athlete ever come out of New Jersey, which is no small fee. He will he goes to Georgetown. He's this tall thin lanky guy, whose nickname is chubby. And he goes on to he plays basketball Georgetown. But he also plays football back when they had a very robust football program. He held several NC double A records. One of the ones that stood the longest the test of time was yards returned yards returning in a single game. He with that, for many, many years, he was a tremendous athlete later became an FBI agent. And then once he had a family became a an executive Uniroyal and was a topic that give you you'd Royal for two or three decades. Really quite. Nobody bands and a very well established man. He has three sons. The least successful son has a has one of the largest recreational park in all of New Jersey named after him. Doug Parcells his middle brother Don with whom he was closest with fifteen months younger than him. They were highly competitive played every sport together Bill was the better. All round athlete gone was the better football player, Don and going to West Point. He became a tap of it became the tenant capital, tenant. And he went to Vietnam was injured decorated came back and became an incredibly successful banker eventually becoming a president of First Fidelity. So you're talking about a family who has an intense level of competition in their background in their blood all three sons play division one football. Build himself was. The Phillies attempted to sign him twice. He was considered one of the best pitching prospects in New Jersey of his era and people still talk about some of his high school pitching tools that he had back in the day. So, and of course, he was also drafted by the Detroit Lions he failed to make that team. But decided also in that same can't that he wanted to be a coach. So we like about some highly competitive family, and there's a great story when Bill was made coach of the New England Patriots. He calls up his brother. And he said, it's really a shame. He said, you went to West Point you served in the military, you got your MBA did all this hard work, and I was the phys Ed major and I just made more money than new this year. Here's all they're still doing that each other. So they were they were very tight very, very competitive in very friendly way. And one of the things that's unique about the book. Is that a lot of research on the family and you get a real sense of his background and his private life. But I don't think you get from from anywhere else. I think there's one quote that probably sums it up best, and that is the quote on the back of the book in which Bill Parcells says my entire life has been spent thinking about this game. What was the drive about football that, that made him so dominant as far as thinking about the game someone would read that comment Carlo, and they would think, well, this man doesn't have any life at all except for football. Well, it's interesting, you should say that because the full quote really is. But he said, I've led a very narrow life. I think the cells would have been a great coach, no matter what sports he decided to coach and a pit goes all the way back to what he and Bobby Knight were coaches at West Point back in the sixties when chesty was one was Bill was was nights point guard on on many of his best teams while he was at West Point. Those, those three men were lost all the way back there. And in early to mid sixties, parcels, and night became best friends, and they were they were incredibly on the they were on the same page in an incredible way. They both thought defense. I they required commitment occasion and focus. That was the second to not. And I think that. Parcells would have been a good foce in any way, shape or form. But a lot of his training who's all the way back to Mickey Corcoran, who was his high school basketball coach and who was Vince Lombardi's favorite player and pets for three years when he was at Saint Cecilia coaching boys basketball, and indeed Parcells grew up in the same neighborhood as a as a Labadie family, his father knew Vince Lombardi he played street football with its Lombardi junior. So there's no question that, that the values of Lombardy pass from Corcoran directly to par cells, and parcels, take that and run with it to the next level. The other thing that both night and parcel share is an ability to motivate people in any way, shape or form, no matter how grotesque it might seem to somebody else. There's a wonderful, I think if I'm somewhat humorous, but he would say in a room full of people. You know in the locker room he go up to Harry Carson, and Jim Burt would easily be near son, as well as ten or fifteen hundred guys and he'd say to every Carson pretending to whisper Burston, practicing crap all week he's they're going to eat him alive. You're going to have to be Shelvin lineman off of you. You're not gonna be able to break your blocks. You're not going to get to the ball carrier. He's having an awful week. You gotta watch out because you're going to have a terrible game has Burt is just suck in wind. And of course, the idea was motivate Burt. And of course, we're went out that that we can have an incredible game. And that was how he was constantly motivating people. He found out the Harry Carson so secret nicknames. When he was a kindergartner, and he said, anytime you go little to chippy. Don't forget, I know your nickname. I'll tell people oh. Oh, he had lots of different ways to push peoples buttons to get them going. We have a little bit amount of minute, before we have to break here Carlo, but I think it's fair to say the Bill Parcells more than anything else was a master manipulator in knowing how to push those buttons. Bill Walsh, was the same way and I'm just wondering, is that a fair thing to say about him because I know from talking to coaches, and also talking to players that he knew how to push those buttons. There's no question, and he, he learned it in his second year as I as the head of the New York Giants, he had faced the piss and he really recreated himself in the nineteen Eighty-four season. He was basically a death watch on for his job. They couldn't give his job away. Otherwise, they would have fired and they couldn't get anybody to take this off. So he got the keep it after a dismal three twelve and one season. And the first thing he did once the new season. You know, once the new preseason started was he cut a third of the team, whether he traded him cut him outright. Oh or release them outright. I say heat fully changed one third of the team and completely changed the way he coached before that he was known as a players coach. And once he realized that you couldn't be a players coach and be a head coach could do that at a defensive coordinator as a positions coach. But once your head coach you can't do that he became a master. Manipulator after that Karla devito is with us. I'm going to urge you to check out this book. It's an excellent read, they'll give you great insights to very interesting man who won two Super Bowls as a coach Bill Parcells the book is simply called parcels of biography, one of the things that was said about Bill Parcells when he was with the giants Harry, Carson once said the problem with him when he came to the ball club as he's a little bit to understanding. We'll talk the Carlo about that. And also has relationships with players and owners as we continue across the country and around the world. With you on sports by line. 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For twenty percent off plus free shipping and a free travel bag manscaping dot com, promo code USA. That's manscaping dot com, promo code USA. This is America sports, talk show sports byline USA. Here's ron. Karla devito is with us on sports, byline USA. And we're talking about his excellent book called parcels biography, I alluded to the fact that Harry Carson made that comment about Bill Parcells about the problem with him was that he was to understanding now. I think most people at least in recent years when he was coaching. Never got that impression of Bill Parcells why what's the dichotomy here in the disconnect? Well, after remember that, you know, he originally got the names, the tuna not because he was the big tuna and everybody needed to be aware of him. But rather because he wanted to be like, like Charlie tuna. And so he was linebackers coach at a New England before he went back to the giants. The running joke was that each week is his favorite player who ever had a great practice or a great game that week before they were his favorite and the players were joking. We give that player the Charlie tuna worked there. You are now his best friend. So it was originally, a running cag-, and he was well, like there's no question about that. He was intense. He demanded performance from his players, but he was also a great guy, and one of the problems that you can't do that. When you're the head coach, there's just no question about it. He, he tried to back off of his coaches and give them to coach. He tried to be nice to his players etcetera and Paul, the literally wrote in Sports Illustrated in the preview of eighty four season, you know, price is the last of the great AFL style, nice guy coaches, and, you know, there's said, there was a death boss on for his job because he was just thought of this nice guy, and he came out in the nineteen eighty four season. And he became the coach that we know today he became much more vocal about testing his players out in public. He called his players out in public. He created a competition for jobs. He motivated people in the newspaper. Papers. He didn't care whatever he had to do to get people to, to perform. That's all he cared about. And he was tremendous side. And, you know, one of the fun things about watching him and reading about him in and, and doing this, one of the lucky things was, I got to watch, I had to as I told my, both my editor my wife, I had to watch a lot of those old forty nine or Tien caves, but was amazing to see how these two guys would different styles offensively from the outside world. We're actually very similar after a long solid coaching stint at the, you know, in the college levels with Wichita state. Army Florida's state Vanderbilt, Texas Tech in the air force academy. He makes the transition to the National Football League. How comfortable was he with that transition? Well, actually, there were a lot of coaches during his college career who really thought he should've been the pros regardless and actually the funniest of the weirdest story of it all. Is that he leaves the air force, and where he's the head coach? Because these guys wanna go on to have military careers. They are not going to go on to become professional football players. It's not what they wanna do. He goes, and he gets a call from the chance and says, he'll they say, would you like to be our linebackers coach but he's been in Colorado at the time and you got teenage daughters and his wife says, I'm not moving to New Jersey. So he says, well, I'm going out this month chance to work with the pros and he goes out there, and he's there for three weeks, but he realizes he really doesn't wanna do this without his wife and he tenders his resignation in the late seventies, and the guy who drives into the airport is built Bella check to their both their first year with the New York Times. So, you know, it goes all the way back to their but he makes the transition to the pros very easily again very well liked very intense. He's already by the time he's halfway through his college career. He's already known as a defensive genius, and he's going from. In college to college places like UPI and AP the New York Times a reporting his moves. He's already come that successful almost anywhere. He goes in turning around a defense, and he fell in love with linebacking early on in linebackers and he really did change the way the Dame was played both by enhancing the three four defense. And of course, once he got Lawrence Taylor, the two of them changed the way defense rants for the next, you know, fifteen or twenty years. Let me ask you about some relationships, first of all ownership relationship. Bob Kraft up in New England. That was not a real comfortable relationship. I think for either one because the quote was and, you know, they would not give him a lot of control over picking the players. Sometimes he said, if they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries what was that relationship the craft Parcells relationship, like, well, you know, a Parcells had some problems in his life. Time with ownership the difficult part about New England laws when he was first hired at New England. He was hired by guy name orthwein, who was native of Saint Louis with bought the patriots with the hope of moving them to Saint Louis. And he lost the, the ability to do that, for a number of different reasons and decided to sell out his share of that team to craft class is a brilliant businessman, and he was not willing to cede control his business to par sells parcels admitted outsider an interloper he had already been wanting to team, the team was already on was already on the successful trajectory. But there was no question that overtime that these two would clash. They're both huge outside egos. Both are incredibly successful. I don't think there's one taking away anything from the other. But it was just not a marriage. That was going to work in any way, shape or form, they were simply like they said about off gay and Jimmy Hoffa. They were simply to dogs, it didn't like each other. I think most people when the signing was announced of him becoming the head coach of the Dallas. Cowboys said, you gotta be kidding me. This one is going to end up in a fight between Jerry Jones and Bill Parcells what made first of all Jones willing to give up a little bit of his own ego in order to get Bill Parcells and how their relationship get along. Well, it's funny because when Jones team finally hit the skids. One of my favorite quotes was Wellington narrows. The owner of the giants. And he said, it's a nice to see Eric, it's humbled. I think that the ship let south on Dallas Jones, realize he needed a real football man to take over the operations there, and there was no question that percents was available and he was he was the best available personality out there. The, the deal was base. Basically brokered or at least a John by tax summer all, who fishy idea, I to Jerry Jones. And then to parcels to good fend to both of those men, I think it says a lot about Jones, honestly, because obviously, he's got huge outside ego as well. But I think Jones was absolutely on his best behavior. I think Parcells was too. I think they both wanted to see the team win. And I think that they both got on incredibly, well, the only real time that Jones kind of acted without ourselves was when they brought in Owens, but always was not about the challenge. Parcells I mean Parcells had one he proven. He was a proven winner and Owens played well for parcels and they never had any drama either. So everybody thought that, that triumphant it was going to be a disaster. And instead they had some very good years. They obviously had some problems with the play offs but he had. He had returns alles to respect ability in a way that it hasn't been in the years before he got there. You know, if there's a guy that has New York kind of guy it would have to be a Bill Parcells. You talked about the Hackensack New Jersey playing excuse me coaching the jets as well as the New York Giants wasn't as comfortable fit as it might look on the outside, even though he did struggle with the giants in those early years, it was actually a great fit in the, the only problem was that, you know, mister Heff died halfway through his r