11 Episode results for "Nasa Science Mission Directorate"
The Skeptics Guide #744 - Oct 12 2019
"You're listening to the skeptics guide to the universe your escape to reality Tim has the most moons I know this now our solar system it's now Saturn when it was you better that's right has overtaken Jupiter because Sir Strana Moore's discovered twenty new moons of Saturn in one fell swoop that's getting silly now hello and welcome to the skeptics guide to the universe today is Wednesday October Ninth Twenty nineteen and this is your host Steven Novella joining me this week are Bob Novella everybody I had to Berea Howdy Jane Bella Guys and Evan Bernstein a folks good to be back Carol let me ask you a question okay what planet in the solar at the amazing meeting I brought up news item about fairy circles in the country of Namibia we have anyone on the show snows anything about need a little bit about high they are mysterious gotta get the word mysterious in there but they really are it's a scientific mystery in a sense they are mysterious reddish you circular shaped patches dotted along about twelve hundred mile long desert grassland region of the country and these things NCAA satellite images and they can be individual ones can be as large as several feet in diameter and there are hundreds of thousands of these things five to ten year update this one takes us back to the year two thousand twelve I recall two thousand twelve and you might recall back in July of two thousand twelve breath what causes the patches kills the vegetation above yeah scientifically speaking though that's not that's not true and they've been studied for quite some time now the tribes people in Namibia for many centuries tributed them to what else supernatural causes they are a ton of fun and they are science infused and and interactive so you'll be part of the show as well all right so we have a lot of shows coming up we mentioned this but we gotta keep mentioning it I'd say they were called the footprints of the Gods for example and there's even a folklore that a dragon or dragons or dwelling underneath the ground and their poisonous now I don't know who came up with the designation or where it caught on but my guess is that this happened because European sellers tickets available for four extravaganzas shows there's a separate page for the extravaganza but they're also listed on the events page so get your team to tentacled monsters tentacles you got there will name him tend to cleese after the Greek God kidnap before they sell out they're going fast real quick so we're going to be in Los Angeles on November twenty third on January thirty first we're going to be in Berg PA on February first we're going to be in Philadelphia PA and on February second we're going to be in Brooklyn New York those are all the extravaganza shows if you haven't been to one when colonization of Africa was all rage came over with their language or our language should say at because of terms such as Namibia maybe I love Namibia the movie is Cara did you see the various Sydney I don't even know what a fair circle is well let me slings and arrows so don't worry Nobel prize time has come out again we seem to come around so fast screw everything else that move come on what I don't understand this Bob aren't you scared about what they'll find I think in my opinion the best candidate that's all right but what's the best moon are around Saturn Titan Titan enceladus I'd say seventeen of the twenty moons are retrograde who also direction there are probably all caps asteroids that's cool though those they the folklore's for that dates back hundreds of years and they're supposedly made by magical creatures such as fairies and elves and Gremlins and Eskimos very circles in this particular news item back in two thousand twelve scientists had already been studying fairy circles of Namibia for quite some time but they were that was true with some other theories which included plant toxins radioactive soil and plant spatial growth patterns in other the ferry rings which is something that we do have in Europe and in the United in North America I should say so I think eventually soaked in things these mushroom rings were portals gateways to these creatures magical realms ooh yeah no they're just mushrooms they happen to just grow in we have updated our events page we just go to the skeptics guide Dot Oregon exc Click on the events button you'll see all of our upcoming events there are in a hard time figuring out the cause one of the theories that was alive in two thousand twelve was that insect activity could have been because for the rings words it's just how these grasses and plants fight for the limited water resources in this desert environment so all of these scientific theories are ear to take on a ring shape in you may have seen them you may have them in your backyard I had them in my backyard in my old house in Cheshire circular patterns on these grassy surfaces it's very very common so you don't have to apply anything supernatural to them but and look hey circle are at conflict with with each other but really can't could not hone in on exactly what was going on here we were talking about it in the context as last year what's going on just seem like a year ago that we had the other so we're GONNA get to those in a moment but Evan you're going to start us off with a five to ten year update are abundant in nature it's you know we like to think that a circle somehow denote some sort of intelligence must be at hand nope circles happen all the time in nature so back to Namibia and the and they would eat the vegetation essentially from below and as the vegetation because of the sparse rainfall and that you'd get it would news item because there was a new update suggesting that perhaps the mystery it finally been solved because a paper that had been published showed evidence had a couple of mushroom rings that actually grow and I'm like Oh look very rings now for for folklore's concerning fairy rings and I'll get back to the ferry circles in the second the culture and it's still used colloquially today that's ring that's just the hunt yet so fairy rings these are growths of mushrooms at a p elected the center and then the termites would eat that and then it would have to eat out further and further sort of forming this larger larger circle pattern that is specific species of sand termite was responsible for these mysterious dirt ring so the termites would live underneath the ground march of two thousand thirteen in the journal Science so there you go there was some more evidence added into the insect bucket. If I may say as far as what these on that Dan Moon they're fine organic molecules yeah there's two amino acids Ri- doing out of its geysers we've got to get to that moon tippety so these scientists said okay it's looking more and more like termites are responsible but there were issues with that particular theory for example the sensually as the vegetation continued to grow outward termites when he was in the center and work their way to the outside so that study was published in now that that didn't really do to be to be the case you know strangely enough I could not find out exactly why these are called fairy circles yes and that sort of what leads into the current status or the most recent set of data that's been collected and published concerning the what's the primary factor that suddenly causes plant to die in other words what starts the process of a small circle becoming larger circle over over time in just about all of the fairy circles that they tested and especially more recent ones which had one hundred percent termite why would termites create circular shape patches specifically according to some of the critics the studies did not address other key questions as to dream heat and evaporation and yes there were termites also in the sands of Australia but not nearly to sort of the degree that was discovered in Africa in other words it wouldn't make sense that the for the amount of termites that they discovered in these rings would be creating these large areas as large as they would be very circles exactly were the scientists from Germany they measured the water content of the soil they did a whole bunch of experiments and they determined that there was termite activity life outside of it it looks like your rope all right it's like frozen and has the guys irs where the water spews out frozen on the inside yeah exactly is there in Australia too and they were discovered in two thousand fourteen those were being attributed to weather related processes like heavy rainfall Aaron exercise in humiliation mainly on our on our part AH thank you bob that's a senior reverence for remember that look it up it's a great one it's supposedly these ferry it's got an ocean bob you're not afraid that they're going to find like tentacled monsters on that I wanted or something I'm came in imagine even better termite constructions can occur in the area fairy circles but the partial location correlation between termites and various circles has no causal relationship so no destructive mechanisms such as those termites are necessary for the formation of the distinct various circle patterns hydrological plant soil interactions alone Miss Stefan Gibson of the University of Gotten in Germany that's a mouthful here's what he said overall overall our study shows that circles for the for the termites maybe there's maybe there's termites everywhere there are a lot of termite there are a lot of termites in and are sufficient so essentially they're saying termites need not apply and because termites are ubiquitous in these areas you can't say that the termites to everyone's attention so I'm referencing her article primarily in that thank you Jennifer friend of the skeptic's guide of course so the code one of the CO authors of the studies it would have been much much more smart essentially so it wasn't adding up so they went ahead and did studies and they released in two thousand nine hundred circles two thousand nineteen but before I get to that I got to get you to two thousand fourteen because very circles turns out not just an African phenomena Namibia all of arid environments and we have Jennifer will let to thank for this because she actually wrote about this earlier this year in two thousand nineteen and brought it news those in the insect camp and those in the weather camp now I suppose are the ones vying for what might really be going on here it came out of the committee talking about their contributions to lithium ion so a little bit of background on the lithium ion revolution that weather being responsible for them in two thousand nineteen let's continue to see how this evolves yep we'll have to do this another five to ten years basically gene brand new two new papers have been published one in the Journal ecosphere and the other in the Journal of arid environments that's cool there's a journal is from it but it's looking like what once what was once heavy in favor of the insects and termites being responsible perhaps is really no longer John Good enough m Stanley Whittingham and Akira Yoshino shared the Nobel prize in Chemistry and it's all about lithium ion batteries there are a lot of really great quotes really began in the sixties and seventies and that's where a lot of this work actually started if you think about it when cars I came on the scene around the turn of the century or just are necessarily responsible that's basically what they what they were able to come up so the controversy two thousand nineteen here we are talking about it again continue offer more of course more studying to be done on this and we'll see what else what else they hypothesize how out of all of this if any new theories essentially but it turns out that his parents actually changed like it was Beith way but they changed it too by the way they like added the I dunno to make it easier for people all right our thanks seven nine hour we come to the Nobel Prizes we have chemistry physics and medicine to talk about tonight and so it's a it's a real scientific controversy unfolding before it's back from now unsolved and back to being a mystery essentially yes and there's and the study never really addressed that so it was still not exactly seal sealed a sealed deal Evan was they test control areas that didn't out of industry that batteries be involved then they realized that petroleum was much faster easier cheaper yeah the battery operated electric cars and obviously we didn't have a way to recharge them batteries have been around for quite some time not lithium ions that's what we're going to talk about but it was always an idea within the of each individual to this work so we'll start with Whittingham in the seventies he was doing research on superconducting materials he actually realized that a metal oxide material could hold even more energy than the sulfide that Wittingham utilized so the case in the balance is tilting in in a different direction so that's basically the update we re talking about termites being responsible for this in two thousand twelve and now we're talking instead of using titanium di sulfide he decided to use a cobalt oxide cathode and that actually doubled the voltage uh-huh because using lithium really aided and that and that made these kind of new classes of materials then good enough improved on his work turn of the century they were actually utilizing battery technology in their first designs isn't that crazy but they realized they were just way too heavy fall and he came up with titanium dice fide that was better at the ions moving around right so there were a lot more free I due at the beginning of the industry were great if you're driving around in the city but there was no way to recharge them between cities that was the problem when Ford came show products and the interesting thing is he was actually looking at electro conductive polymers in research that was related but also not related and it allowed him to up with this realization that instead of using lithium metal on the road he could use something called petroleum coke which I had never heard and you know doing like classic Solid State Chemistry Research and he actually developed a new cathode material titanium dioxide so we know that batteries to say okay I think we need to take another stab at this battery thing and it took several several years to get batteries to a place where they would become a viable option lightweight and very efficiently ion battery and soon after that Sony released their first lithium ion and we've only seen improvements since then but as a lot of the Nobel tron that actually makes them work talking about rechargeable batteries now so he was trying to develop a new cathode material because batteries were just not very power upped even starting in the seventies so we've seen small iterations but they're developments were you know altering for the field so these were becoming smoggy air pollution was becoming a real problem I think there were even some mutterings of climate change this early and so that's when researchers started and not just for cars but also four you know the ubiquitous electronics that we use right now so if you wanna look maybe just break down really quickly the contribution unlike the sixties was really I think when it started to come to a lot of people's realization that emissions were not good like things like the people who are saying the time has come we're really excited to see this recognition almost everybody in the world is utilize lithium ion battery in their daily lives a good enough actually pronounce it good enough yeah Oh my gosh okay so this reminds me yeah I had a friend in high school whose last name was by the way up which is a carbon matrix and when they used Yoshino New Anna with good enough new cathode all of a sudden we had a safe an ano to cathode right through these two terminals and that there's a circuit within the release and recapture of these I am Stanley Wittingham and Akira Yoshida definitely deserves it I hope that in twenty thirty nine the Nobel Prizes for whatever the next batter chiefs are everywhere and they've really changed the way that we interact with our technology so super cool and congratulations once again to doctors John Good enough doc basically put their chips down on the gasoline engine that killed the electrical hills yeah it killed everything petroleum became king all of the research became in that area and aw was focusing on the ano to the battery and he realized that lithium had always been a problem because they would explode and that was just not safe in Eh pointed out the batteries that we're using the lithium ions that we're using right now to power Tesla's are based on the technology that these three chemists developed matter all right thanks okay Bob you're next with the Nobel Prize in physics the Royal Swedish Academy of Science announce some Nobel and also increase the energy capacity of the battery which made it more viable in commercial applications and then after that Yoshino areas right whatever next battery technology transforms our world again some big chains like quantum planted that was orbiting a pulsar and it was very bizarre but it was actually the first planet around us sunlight star the very first exoplanet around podcast mine of course is physics hello so the prize for physics was won by two thought it was their idea just did not have the technology to to make it work it did it did prove ultimately to be workable the idea is that an orbiting planet a you're going to start us off with the chemistry prize the twenty thousand nine Nobel Prize in chemistry has been awarded to I love this guy's name John Neva and I did Eric is a professor of physics at the Kevin Dish Laborat- laboratory at Cambridge University and the University of Geneva wow I mean you mentioned working trying to do this and eventually they did do that for the first time in ninety five and what they found was a jupiter mass exoplanet that completed its orbit only in every four the light so blue when it's pulled towards the earth and then read when it's pulled away away from us and detecting that was extremely subtle but that was what they were Ed Cambridge University and the university Geneva I work place but the work that they did they didn't do their work there unfortunately close the planet around the Star so they published a paper in nineteen ninety five and this was not the first exoplanet discovery that was done that was actually is about the cosmos so I'll start with the one half of the prize going to the two astronomers of mayor is an extra physicist and professor emeritus of astronomy at University of g winners for twenty one thousand nine this week we've been talking about we all have our favourite goto category for the Nobel Prizes for us for me anyway it's a Nobel Prize for best onerous Michael Maher and diddy air KAYLA's shared it with cosmologists James People's a noble judges said that they all three transformed all of their names they haven't been named let's name them there's a contest going on to name them if you want to get involved with that yes Munich Moon phase and now there's something I wonder why I used to be good enough and then they take we we've talked about him on his show a couple of times before just because more recent work that he's doing on batteries able to finally do in in the nineties and they scientists realize I think in the mid to late eighties that yeah the technology's getting there were really close let's start the start star like that another dead star but an active star so so a huge milestone obviously now the idea to actually find these plants came out in the fifties earlier than than as which was so fast that they doubted it they actually studied they studied there are the results for for a really long time they went back and forth and they just we'll tug on his star gravitationally while it's in orbit around it or basically they tug on each other but it's giving the the the the star a tug and that will doppler shift the work at Francis Hot Province Observatory so me throw me throw out some fifty one peg aside be mean any star amazing discoveries in often it's not even believe because it doesn't go with a you know the Zeitgeist of the of the time so inverse of course was history now we've discovered over you had a problem with it because it just didn't make a lot of sense based on on on what they knew at the time which of course was so great about science one of the greatest things about scientists that you make these again here we go we've only had three women win the physics Nobel Prize three an all in all this time and so it it really is the cosmology embarks on its way to become a science of precision and a tool to discover new physics so that was a milestone clear milestone really understand I evidence of of dark matter come on how amazingly important was that and she did it by solving the galaxy rotation problem spiral galaxies often ashamed Chandra Prescott Weinstein is an astrophysicist said it's a shame that the Nobel prize committee brazenly refused to Vera Rubin the prize for finding the first concrete amazing title Oh boy so every every year the academy put together a basically a scientific background paper to describe their reasonings for this one they said that people's wrote a nine hundred sixty five paper talking about how dark matter is necessary for galaxy formation and then they said was the moment you know the universe cosmology at biggest scales Michael Turner of the University of Chicago said Jimmy's been involved in almost all of the major developments into since the discussion I wish this would have come earlier so that Dr Rubin could have been included her work has fundamentally changed how we think of the universe and it's just really yet half of the Nobel Prize for physics goes to James People's he's a professor emeritus at Princeton and he's also the Albert Einstein professor of science at Princeton his colleagues did amazing peoples in his colleagues had predicted cosmic background radiation they predicted it and the minute variations found in that is we're matter was complaining about this and a lot of it has to do with our Vera Rubin who is an astrophysicist who was the first person woman who discovered he gave us the of that major discovery which also wanted to own a Nobel prize years ago but I got to end on a little bit of a Downer on this one because people are biased I think is is still there it's it's really disappointing and hopefully we can get past it at some point and not just you know and and really and recognize people that rotation and that is as dark matter and she didn't predict dark matter initially that was from Swiss extra physicist Fritz Zwicky in one thousand nine hundred winning the earliest investigations of examining exoplanet atmospheres just an amazing amazing discovery a well-deserved the second and they they they predicted that as well and they also proposed the acceleration of the accelerated expansion of the universe that was due to dark energy. Also a key predictor evidence of dark matter and now she's dead and ineligible to receive it forever Thomas Zurbuchen Associate Administrator for Nasa Science Mission Directorate the Cosmic Microwave background radiation in nineteen sixty five and has been the leader of the field for all that time people's and and it's called so here's here's some of the things that they that he the Nobel Prize in physiology or medicine and this one goes also to three researchers also three guys William Calin yeah she was the first one I want to have to have verified you know real solid evidence for this you so for years they've people were saying oh she's going to get nominee so this is extremely wonky and technical which is what I love about it this is good solid basic science good old reductionist re This year never happened she died in two thousand sixteen and it's just it's really is it really is I is a slap in the face as I see it really is Sir Peter Ratcliffe and Greg Semenzato for their discoveries of how cells sense and adapt to oxygen availability essentially aren't white old guys I mean that's the bottom line if you're not that it's clearly a hard for you to be recognized the way people search figuring out how stuff actually works at a cellular level and then going a step further and then going just totally closing that loop and we'll we'll we'll rotate in a way that makes no sense based on the luminous mass that we can detect there had to be some hidden mass in there a lot of it to to explain it I've been recognized for an for decades over a century now yeah Vera Rubin really wasn't oversight yeah it's hard it's hard to rectify that one all right one more it's enhancing hormone but it's obviously essential to just normal life it's how you maintain your red blood cell count if you say moved to Denver at the most fundamental level that you can get to and of course oxygen kind of important to biology is still yeah so for animals of course linked to an even more in depth discussion on the Nobel Prize site which links to original research if you really WanNa get details is in the kidneys the kidneys produce a hormone called Erythropoietin or EPO at or EPO was call the depot and e hip athletes will dope with EPO to increase their red blood cell count to give them an edge so it's it's illegal yet to use it as a performer logical equilibrium in how we deal with with oxygen so I'm GonNa very quickly go over the science I'll try to make it as interesting as I can but if you really hello increases the body's production of red blood cells you may have heard of this because athletes especially like marathon long distance who emerged five hundred or so million years ago read oxygen and so we've had about five hundred billion years for evolution to tweak the physician is the carotid bodies these are sensors in the crowded arteries they respond to pressure but they also respond to oxygen when oxygen levels drop want to look at the details then I wrote a sort of like an executive summary kind of thing on science based medicine and I've from that they send signals to the heart to say pump more blood up to the brain but we didn't know how they sense oxygen another very important homeo- static mechanisms response to oxygen and there are mechanisms to equilibrium mechanisms to maintain delivery boxers into every cell in the body one of those mechanisms. You guys were all involved in discovering the details of that cellular mechanism for example cement discovered a protein complex which he called Hypoxia in goes deep as you want but here's the the quickey summary scientists knew for a long time back like nineteen twenties that obviously the body producible factor or H. I f. which is comprised of two transcription factors those are proteins that regulate the transcription of DNA into proteins right and went to a higher altitude part of adapting to that higher altitude is that your body senses the decrease in oxygen it releases epo you make more red blood cells so that you can deliver the more oxygen to tissue right but again how does it know how does it know how much oxygen there is there must be a specific mechanism so these increasing the transcription of proteins that that enact whatever the homies static mechanism is so going further his work discovered another enzyme one that degrades heff one Alpha and that is oxygen ultimately oxygen dependent right so when auctions a levels scripture factor is exactly what you would expect to be a regulatory mechanism if the oxygen levels drop for example this protein might be involved in other researchers discovered that when oxygen levels are decreased if one alpha levels increased which increased transcription of the EPO gene so that's growing clump of tissue it's cancer cells usually have mutations which make them hype relatively hypoxia tolerant and this Chelsea protein right the one that mutated in this disease is needed to attack other proteins with ubiquitous which marks them for degradation oh the rate at which hit Alpha breaks down is decreased sold levels increase thereby increasing EP levels right so that was the next Lincoln the chain one link in the chain but then but how did that work how did decreasing levels of oxygen increase if a l Alpha levels so other researchers we thinking about what purposes going to serve just how does this work what how does that work and then what happens let's just keep digging and digging till you get okay yeah but of course there's obvious applications for this we don't know how exactly it's going to translate but understanding all of this can have implications for cancer obviously now anything that allows cancers to thrive as an opportunity to intervene and prevent them from thriving right reversing their adaptation to hypoxia predisposed to cancer the V. H. L. Gene Prevents the onset of cancer and is linked to higher levels of hypotheses regulating proteins. There's a link knobby some kind of specific treatment but also like this research because you will notice that nowhere in this chain of events does the scientists invoked chain of events that we talked about so that was the final connection so at that connects oxygen all through multiple steps to increases in EPO levels and lead to more red blood cells so I said very walkie very technical but that's science in my opinion at best righteous curious scientists without re our bodies are freaking machines and you don't have to invoke any kind of magical energy in order to make them work or to make them work also it's humbling for example but also a lot of infections are dependent on oxygen levels it also could have implications for recovery from stroke anemia wound healing and other things as well so there's a lot of complicated right the body as a complicated homeo- static dynamic equilibrium right and that's how the body works and simplistic notions of a mechanism right because our bodies our machines and that's sort of the Meta experiment always going on in the background of this kind of biological basic science researcher for degradation so that's the connection with oxygen it big as a chemical reaction that causes hydroxy groups to be added to the protein which then allows for the binding and then the whole in cancer solid tumors cancers are generally tend to be hypoxia because it's hard to deliver enough blood and oxygen to the can we understand that things at a fundamental level of course it's going to have implications you don't have to really worry about that when you're doing the research now it's the job of clinicians to try to translate this to Messenger Arnie and then ultimately into proteins he called those transcription factors one alpha and a. r. n. t now that's that's very intriguing because if you von Hippo Linda disease via the Shell is a genetic mutation that basically gets you one step they're already so you like you're already predisposed to having cancer he found out that the B this is then we're Kaelin comes in he was researching the effects of oxygen on cancer cells specifically in a disease called von Hypol- disease or V. H. L. This is a genetic disease so very very cool it's great there's problems with the Nobel prize which we've talked about in the past but it's great that every year we celebrate just straight up signs in asleep published that at normal oxygen levels hydroxyl groups are added to specific positions in Heff when Alpha allowing H. L. to bind and mark hip one yet the basically the entire supplement industry is based upon a ridiculously simplistic notion about how the body works which is belayed by all content that you can trust with thousands of objective unbiased lectures from respected professors who really really know their stuff and the topics are really far ranging this kind of research you know this is why pseudo-scientists fail right because they are not operating at this level and this is the level at which the body is actually functioning Oh this is low so let me increase it or this is good so Moore's better any of that kind of stuff is hopelessly naive sometimes that works out but we've already picked all that low hanging fruit microbiology to the black plague surviving in the wild to building a better vocabulary and my favorite part you can watch listen anytime anywhere with the great courses rise that makes sense now you see where there are the connections being made this is we're ratcliffe comes in he discovered that the interacts with hip one Alpha and is necessary breakdown how ecological systems work together to create huge changes in a short amount of time and what we can do about it so stop second guessing or even third guessing he were life hunter g goodness or there's no point is there and then a miracle happens this is all something strictly plus APP we are recommending to s you listeners to check out their new course earth at the crossroads understanding the ecology of a changing planet this courses Insci- we'll everyone we're gonNA take a quick break from our show to talk about one of our sponsors this week the great courses plus great courses offers valuable indepth run a jet on electricite without jet fuel this is a little bit more complicated because we could be talking about hybrid solutions now I think it's a good thing good thing for science communication ultimately definitely all right thanks guys for helping me present the two thousand eighteen Nobel prizes the degradation of Heflin Alpha normal oxygen levels and then finally Radcliffe in Kaelin at this point that like hey our research is intersecting so let's just do this together they simultaneous well the great courses plus dot com slash skeptics remember the great courses plus dot com slash skeptics. All right guys let's get back to the show awesome another great science communicator so stay tuned for that interview but before we get to that we're GONNA do quick too quick news items Jay can we China for the great courses plus today our listeners get a full month of unlimited access for free wow just sign up now to get started using our special indeed working on electric airplanes this is great news because air travel represents up to ninety percent of the anthropogenic greenhouse gases so I said that jet fuel very expensive it is very expensive it's probably only going to get more expensive so this is a big challenge for NASA and the commercial industry because many components of electric motors right the by this is complex and I went into enough detail really the thing you're going to walk away from this because you're not gonNA remember anything I said tomorrow but they're going to walk away with this wow this is we have a couple of other quick news items that we're going to do then we have a great interview actually coming up later in the show with Bruce Hood who's a developmental psychologist you've been on the show before he's batteries are super heavy these things are not light you know you build an electric motor it's got a ton away to it so NASA's advanced air vehicles program or the a VP you say you pick within yes ubiquitous protein players yes it's ever so without degradation of certain proteins is decreased and their levels a to a total big old how long are they working on these questions you know careers all year yeah this is like a career's worth of research we're talking about decades decades and and we're way beyond that now trying to interfere with these complex homeo- homeopathic SIMP- systems is complicated and there are already trying to solve the problem like developing lightweight and small invertebrates he keep reading about these investigators so what are they these components convert alternating the waiting for that because I said I usually don't say that I haven't said it in so long so anyway NASA later in much smaller Electronics General Electric has signed a twelve million dollar contract with NASA develop silicon carbide technology or to advance the existing technologies more that's going on right now with our current technology and the idea of building a fully electric airplanes so NASA realized that they need a state of the art lightweight material that will help create accurate this material is used today to create these high temperature high voltage electronics and GE's trying to make silicon carbide meet the efficiency in power and size versity and don't forget a megawatt of electricity is a huge amount of power it could power up to one thousand homes so a suitcase that can generate is enormous and I it just won't work with with what we have today so the weight issue is similar to rocket technology we've talked about this it takes more fuel to bring more analogy can one day be used for person aircraft all the way to a twenty megawatt airliner a twenty megawatt airline is really cool okay Jay who's that noisy time guys last week I played this noisy image NASA has outlined so for example net NASA watts an inverted that is no larger than a normal sized suitcase and capable of generating a megawatt of election fuel up and you just get into this fuel luke where if you want to bring more fuel you gotta spend more fuel and you can get to a point where it's just not worth it anymore you just stop well that's that's the problem. Racial costs in the industry reports that advancements in power electronics and new materials are making it possible to reach these goals sooner than you might think so NASA has a goal of they've got some of the puzzle pieces but not all the puzzle pieces and they're not ready for commercial use but are but are the foundation of some of this exciting new technology that's going to be coming soon restore it or whatever that's another limiting factor we're going to run into but if you don't Ha- if the electronic equipment itself can't handle enough power to run the engines without being too heavy ended for being jerks God love the show and hope you all can swing up to Boston sometime after your big Melvin trip we are coming to Boston we are negoti now these systems are being developed at Nasr's electric aircraft testbed also known as the N. E. A. T. and Sandusky Ohio they're saying that this clear yeah it's not a power generators but you need that in order to make like an engine work you also need something that could generate that much energy or head that this was a data set that had been interpreted into music that was my my clue I got a lot of emails a lot of people were like what the heck and they gave me Dan so we'll likely see a hybrid version of these new aircraft first and then as technology continues to improve they can move it to a one hundred percent electric thing this tech by twenty thirty five in the researchers are saying that they have prototypes that meet the power size and efficiency requirements today that don't get excitement say today why it's a no go right so that's they're trying to solve right now so this proposed new technology will will reduce energy consumption it'll reduce noise and demonic sounds cool that's not correct but I did get multiple people who wrote that one in now I did play this on the show a couple years ago one megawatt well easing J it's not generating a megawatt it's handling a mega it's handling a megawatt your but yeah that's just most recent who's that noisy sounds like an installation I heard in Alaska by the composer John Luther Adams called the place where you go to listen and fairbanks which takes data four thousand exoplanets an amazing number it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger we've devised multiple methods to detect them and even generators and power conversion electronics. They're much too heavy enlarge to not only fit to work on an aircraft or just distal technology wants when you're down here in Australia catch you all then hope hope you're well we are well we're excited and we're coming to your house for dinner different kinds of sound. According to the Team Stars and Compact galaxies make shorter and clearer sounds while spiraling galaxies produce more complex longer notes time correct I got a couple of more guests. James Hodson wrote in high j James from Melbourne Melbourne Melbourne Melbourne Melbourne Melbourne all the different ways systems to create a kind of oral environment that is also not correct but the But this Guy James says me and my brother Barbro our book to see you guys in a few do this week's noisy as soon as I heard a team from NASA took a Hubble deep space image and turned it into sound check this out guys different parts of the image produced rights and I I don't care if yours came in two seconds afterwards I have to have a cutoff somewhere and that's the cutoff my friend so justice Smith Ronin said Hey Jay sheeting for an extravaganza in Boston that day will be announced as soon as it's finalized stay tuned another email from a listener named Brett Krueger Brett said I've been list these guesses or check it out I got a guest from Josh Gallery said Hey this week sound has to be an audio interpretation of twitter data stream with notes played when people are and if you don't know what it is check it out the sea organ located in Zadar Croatia it's a beautiful sound very cool thing there's pictures and videos you can see if it working but that is thing to the hugh for about two years now and this is my first guest who's that noisy it sounds like it is these see Oregon located in Zadar Croatia which turns the movement of incoming waves current known as ac into direct her known as DC ACDC right remember the band Elliott black so the existing technology today like motors inviter not we'll be but we have a winner and there was one winner this week in there can only be one winner why because there's emails are time stamped and it's the person well those near the top produce higher one's pretty cool so let me play it again this is a very very cool noisy it is time flows left to right and the frequency of sound changes from the bottom to the top ranging from thirty to one thousand Hertz objects near the bottom of the image produce lower notes it sounds like mister toad starting up his jalopy the teachers couple of very important things one we're going to have a twelve hour show a twelve hour livestream show you've heard me talk about it before but it's still happening David specifically did this for us to help us gain more patrons because we have a goal of four thousand patrons when we hit four thousand patrons what we're GONNA do is we're going to do it accompany our friend David built us a custom designed phaser rifles star Trek phaser rifle from the original series now when I say from do we did a full build of a custom built phaser rifle that is in the star Trek universe that was built by a friend of ours named David Trimmer so in this particular noisy I want specifics because without giving away anything it does sound like something that we're all kind of science fiction of it I have a new noisy for you guys this week are you ready sure built it he engineered he engineered he constructed them he fabricated them now we are giving away one of these phaser rifles to s g you it wasn't actually in the original series it's just supposed to belong in that Star Trek India Aesthetic Bob Stephen I designed the phaser ourselves David is a late breaking development we got the phaser rifles that you may have heard us talk about before I didn't give specifics on what the phaser rifle is and what it means familiar too I bet just be very specific I'm going to be very picky on what's a win on this one and you can email me at w. t. n. at the skeptics Guy Dot oh getting revved up about it were hoping that sometime next year that we can do this and when we do the twelve hour show we will be giving away to one lucky winner this see the finished product but you could see us build these phaser rifles on Alpha quadrant six dot com or youtube channel. It's going to be the latest video that we have it now but if you're listening to this a couple of months down the road just go there and take a look at Star Trek phaser rifle and you'll see us build them and talk about it this is super exciting mazing hero level prop when I hear level prop I mean this is as good as they get this was built by a master probabilities movie quality it's movie quality it's it's patrons members and Alpha quadrant six patrons you are automatically entered if you are a patron I'm going to have a website up that I will announce next week where you can it's amazingly solid it's beautiful it does everything that you would want a phaser rifle to accept it doesn't actually disintegrate people can you set it to stun it is really evident so here are the details this Saturday by the time this show drops of the Betim by the time you're listening to this program Alpha quadrant six science fiction review show that me Bob and Stephen did it how he fabricated these pieces so we go into detail we interview David on the Alpha quadrant six show so you can feel free to go take a look at that but if you want in on this all right thank you J. Hey Steve Yes did you know that the s g you has a Patriot Fan I was aware of that yeah so I would hope so so we have something really cool org if you have guesses or if you have another noisy that you heard you know you're hearing noise you gotTa send them in to me and I will put them into my consideration Matrix ready to go on with our interview with Bruce Hood as is often the case a longer uncut version of the interview about forty minutes or so a patron you can skip ahead to science fiction if you're going to listen to the whole uncut you WanNa see pictures and all that all the answers and information will be either in that Alpha quadrant six episodes up on the skeptics sky dot org website all right thanks Jay okay latest book possessed why we want more than we need so this is not about demonic possession this is about owning stuff we'll be available on as premium content for our patrons of we're GONNA put about half of that as an excerpt into this show but if you are so I can't wait to show it to you next time that you're in studio you could take a look at these things are just remarkable how well how well built they are and we got when we built this when we hand built it we got to see like how he of both you have two entries that said we are super excited about the twelve hour show in hitting our goal four thousand patrons and again if you have any questions have to become a patron of of one of our two shows either Alpha quadrant six dot com or you can go to the skeptics dot org become a patron you're automatically entered if you if you're a aunt who works at Weta workshop in New Zealand if you don't know who and what wet is look them up online but wetter in short is an amazing special effects prop building could we are joined now by Bruce Hood Bruce Welcome to the skeptics guide and Bruce is a developmental psychologist who we've had on the show before the author of many excellent books and we're talking to you now about your why do people like to own stuff this is a problem look around so tell us about your research art rather over things identical indistinguishable physically so we have this kind of deep psychological connection with our possessions and that kind of developed into a kind of appreciation that these are things which are an extension of ourselves many ways or other people so we we see personal possessions as it's not just being kind of unconnected to the owner but actually having a deeper psychological connection that's why like memorabilia why we value original on the supernatural king and the magical thinking was the way that we have a culinary reactions to objects which we think are possessed by demons get involved with this question well I'd be interested in are unusual relationship with physical objects for some time now and some of my early work dahmer or something like that everyone reacts very bizarre way so I've been very interested in the way that we have this relationship with objects possessions whole first place on what's going to happen future so what are some of the basic components of this concept of ownership and so they they start to learn the contingency of their actions and control is actually one of the fundamentals of ownership because if you suddenly lose control of your that you can claim possession of a so this is really the premise of the book is where does this come from house this manifest in different cultures what is property objects and it comes to this idea that there is this essence that we attribute to things which makes something replaceable unique and that's why we value original words that I click into place with young kids well I think in the book I briefly talk about the way that children start your appreciate the way to extend the actually part of who we are is is kind of extended into all our personal possessions on our wealth and things that we own this is the point authentic which have a very close connection with Mar and conversely why we dug like to come into close contact with things which we feel might be content largest Business appreciation of the contingency of your actions control the world around you at of course when you don't own something that's exactly the point there They can control the world around literally young babies okay so they started off pretty but typically immature but they kinda learn to pick up rattles bag things control by laws the laws of ownership loss of property and Your whole identity to some extent is in the physical extension things that you would cominated and so when I started to look more about this I mean I was researching where to start from the beginning and interest insurance first attachment objects ten since I started do some research for Paul Bloom at Yale and we're looking at this this notion of offended because some land we just assume and we don't even think about it but actually when you start to look about property and ownership in the rights of access suddenly realized that your whole life is or the evil essence of murder that stunt many years ago asking people to put on the Cardigan and then savings these so-called card again if you it was a belong to Jesse made by William James the on the kind of fathers in psychology the American psychologist seed who said that the self you are is not just your body in mind but everything the thing so it's a really broad strokes approach looking at the whole relationship humans have with objects live accumulates things what compels us to one thing we don't really want Audie for example in your neurologist so you'll know these conditions where people suddenly have this Alien Hand Syndrome it certainly belongs to someone else it's not there so I think the primeval you can't control it or it's taken away from you so baby star all literally interacting with the world and binding rattles sticking things in her mouth Teddy bears and all that stuff mental in universal but maybe a manifestation of something deeper some deeper psychology ownership is just one manifestation of that and it's very apple but also different cultures have different concepts and strengths of ownership and so it seems then therefore that the concept of ownership may not in and of itself four but again we're talking about very young children U. How do they how many figure out who's who's bag that is or who's a wallet loosely or two to three years of age but even that you know that develops with experience develops with cultures because no old cultures but as they grew up they learned that they have access to some place but not others so you know initially babies are the preventive touching things potentially dangerous for them as they get older who says you can't have that that's your brothers or you can't have that does belong to you so they learn have to learn to understand the rules that not everything is open access there are some things that compete for resources territory mates food and so forth and so that's kind of one basic principle of ownership which is severe holding onto its mind and therefore I being studies looking at the emerges early civilizations in successive visa hunter gatherer tribes and they would have had this kind of principle recalled demand but I also address the book this really interested in New Territories how are these things changing now the digital revolution is changing the nature books recordings and can you know they can own something's belong to the people and then they kind of have to work out the rules like who owns what who's likely on so you might think well that's Kinda straight great listeners of ownership so I talk about for example the book the last Hunter Gatherer tribes which elected applauded the hoste Tanzania they don't really have the concepts of ownership that we walk with the West so for them you don't really own anything you're you can be in possession of it but if you're not using I can help myself to it so fighting for it but ownership is different in the sense that that's a convention and that operates with kind of third party punishment so if we are truly dependent how that manifested you have research has been able to dig down deeper as to what like the sources of ownership are well I think assault by discussing ladies but you WANNA come back to make sure that your homestead is protected and then of course this also allows you to become the establishment to build up hierarchies wealth and then to Gary where no one actually owns outright a case of you know what's good for the group Yeah so you talk about that as well the fact that not that them as a specific thing agree upon and that's why that requires policing laws and that wouldn't have emerged presumably probably quite early in human development but I to gather tribe because he can't carry stuff around with you and so you have to really kind of be you have to optimize the usage of things and it turns out this very interest what so there there are these kind of fundamentals like someone's holding it the likely to be the owner as opposed to a thief so there's some basic principles of ownership the children seem to appreciate quite early really got amplified when we settled down unformed communities so rather than being hunted galleries moved now when developed agriculture you start to collect resources asa on his inheritance so now resources in terms of carbs in food and money is starting to appear now he's things which can form transactions a member of a group of we recognize ownership than we understand that even though the owners in present he may have gone off to fight a battle raid the next village he still owns the property so we can wherever then the next person can just help themselves to it so they understand possession in that you have to fight for you have but the concept of ships convention that really people ourselves to it and if they do then we can suffer the consequences of animals don't tend to do that okay so if they abandoned a territory or the abandoned food hi dear competition so obviously goes to Darwin Talks National Selection obviously you know this competition between individuals of a species unser go to your neighbors barring the law more not using just taking it so you're not using it's all going to use it and that turns out actually very optimal way of thinking about ownership Russian will be very very early on is with primates animals but the convention of ownership I think is actually required cognitive machinery to kind of work out there who owns what and while the consequences so was predict the course of action select kind of sophisticated unders very little evidence that you see this is mine like she totally knows that chi-jen and she seems like I have to assert ownership over the to the adults in the room but you don't see a lot of very good evidence that there's this third party punishment and yet you see human children by about three or four years of age yet even Jane both raise kids as you domesticate animals domestic crops you saw reserves at these need to be protected and you need to go off on battles warring right and Jay's younger daughter who's three Nabet even your previously she will take something whether it's hers or not and she'll look shing so why did the peacock of all such ludicrous displays really expensive it's cumbersome requires a lot of metabolic resources be used to give advice she offspring in your siblings older people that you want to advantage so it will being some form of learn as they appreciate is that possessions are form of dominance statements and not over ninety percent of the conflicts in nurseries and playgrounds ended best right and that's why I call it social peacocking so you know in the Animal Kingdom Dr was greeted confused by adaptations which seemed to be so the you know the peacock it's true the elaborate Nature Picot tail is a direct marker of genetic immune system so over toys possessions and very often it's the acquisition of possession which is the goal of the actual possession so your child might fight for toy party punishment in animals there's some reports corvettes These guys are very clever the federal dates is they may do something like that we know that those with impoverished tales tend to have poor immunity so in a sense it's a proxy for genetic thin now of course humans also developed an old culture so I think there is a there's a need to establish acceptance and there's a need to not be ostracized and that could be in the form of each other because of the imbalance between the number of potential sperm a male coaches relative to the cost to raising egg the female the males literally Palmists do the same thing as well so there are all these hierarchies we use possessions way of signaling status are not so different we grew up like that in the west of course that's not the case stations to make us more or less attractive to females and vice versa famous also denounced are attractive to males but we also had technology they could also the nails in the animal kingdom on the most colorful adds show the bizarre displays because these the displays are markers for genetic prowess in the case of is that means a birth defect they fly well this is because of a in addition to natural selection sexual selection so the males typically compete against structure so yeah so status and being successful in your society are the real goals possession just a means to an end and that's culturally can have many more children so they compete with each other for the attention of the females the females on the other hand they have to choose the males who have the best genes so what happened was that's a concept that comes in very very early but still that's not too early to be learned right no no and the most common word so your mind is one of the first words certain objects more than other ones that turns out that when objects come into your possession you immediately assume you've got a pretty good sense of self were used looking more for your resources but another component of this is actually the extent to which the object is part of your identity and and this is why war of a war of attrition in terms of Advertising Your Genes I starring said they developed ornaments ornaments so this is the horns and the coloring and that's why unlike wealth again this signals You know the advantages that you would have if you made me buckle all these resources hasn't changed of course that's why it's not just the B to buy them and part of the explanation is to do with what's called the prospect theory this is what coffee or in another sense it's also the basis of what we call conspicuous consumption what people buy display luxury things yet take it from another child go after another child's toy so this is how you establish dominance and it's not it's not too dissimilar to the Nobel Prize for misses the idea that the prospect of a loss weighs more heavily in your mind the prospect of a gain so you're always gonNA buy yourself to make sure you're not losing astonishing status in other cultures that's also manifest by how well you integrate about that so they're more interdependent that's not to say that they don't have hierarchy so that just not the same the Ferrari or the fact is you know such one piece of engineering it also signals a pick way up how is your status in so this is what we call Social Taylor both recipients of the Nobel Prize in economics on they both worked on this phenomenon looking at this imbalance between price people willing to sell things off at on the traders for example people who do this for living they're not as Lucia invested in their products as as novices and so they show less of an endowment effect gotta get a deal on something but there's a psychological person whereas suzy take ownership of More now this was established by donning conman on take your stuff is worth more than anyone else to pay for it so I mean that makes economic sense that you should always trade in US more than us at untried by things on a and we've been looking at missing children's showing that if you juicing dominant affected child by basically getting ready to think about themselves would make patriots themselves there the domino effect turns up naturally she's usually about at least seventy eight years of age so having established they can use this scale we can get them to identical spinning tops ah very science fiction the very the better made goods suddenly they last longer but a big factor in your showing off to other people just how successful you are Bruce tell us about the concept of in the one themselves than we did the manipulation we got the draw picture about themselves and talk about themselves or we got them to make a picture of their friend or the friend or we had Russians of the objects and they have a stock the more we did this really cool experiment where we gave children I test Steve Nick workup around the volume of these cases tool plastics things that you might get I don't know McDonald's or something like that and we asked him well how much do you think these how much do you like these guys it was good a liver was frowning didn't think it's very good so once they used the scale is the way that they could kinda workout relative value of these toys now these are three year olds this is well before using some that were really good toys in some little bit rubbish we use a scale Smiley scale so the bigger the slough they more they like the object Dowman and what that tells us about ownership yeah I have been doing some research on this because this is getting back into the irrational nature that we volume they put them on the same point of scale so that means that the understood this point these two identities are equivalent memory to the penis gave one of the toys is fitting tops and the experimental unethical tops again on the children who being primed to think about themselves they felt that they're worth much more than the experiment taught but the effect was not seen him the other two conditions control condition whether the pharmacy athletes spend some time have been Friday to think about themselves someone else pharmacy we then got them to evaluate the to either put them on display and then by alphabetical order and so and so we had this really strange relationship with physical things Bruce it's a fascinating book and a fascinating talk do things rationally they have
Small Steps, Giant Leaps: Episode 30, VIPER Lunar Rover
"If you think you understand what a off World Rover looks like your minds can be blown a little bit so so much about Viper. That is innovative. In a different approach that will ultimately long after my time the path finding for whole commercial ecosystem associated with the moon enabling humans to go further and further solar system more quickly and more cost effectively. Welcome back to small steps giant leaps and NASA Apple Knowledge Services. Podcast taps into project experiences to share best practices lessons learned and novel ideas. I'm Dina Nunnelee Nastase. Volatile Investigating Polar Exploration Rover or Viper is a mobile robot that will look for Water Ice on the Moon Viper Project Manager Dan Andrews who also serves as director of engineering at NASA's Ames Research Center is with us today to discuss the new Lunar Rover. Dan Thank you for joining us on the PODCAST. All thank you very much my pleasure. Could you give overview and background of the Viper Mission? The fiber mission is a really cool lunar mission. It's following on the heels us some really interesting data. That goes all the way back to the nineties. There were two missions the clementine mission the night before and the lunar prospector mission in ninety eight and they were very different missions. Different customers different purposes. But they both saw some interesting things happening in the polar regions of the moon and as people started looking at that data and correlating. They started wondering about this idea of their potentially being water ice in the polar regions of the moon which of course blew the minds of everybody. Because how could there possibly be? We had the whole Apollo mission series and nothing. Nah No indication at all that there'd be water ice in the polar regions and these two missions can confirm that there is water is there but that would just be a potential explanation for what they were seen when neutron counts and some other things they were looking at so we needed a mission to go and answer that and in two thousand nine got another mission called L. Cross which was short for the Lunar Crater observation and sensing satellite and I was a project manager for that mission. What that mission was all about was trying to confirm was the strange signals that seem to be indicating that there is elevated hydrogen and the polar regions of the moon was actually in the form of water ice and so did that mission and fast forward to the end of it. We were able to confirm through witnessing actual water. Ice Crystals and Water is water vapor. The presence of water is there which basically rewrote the books on the moon and so- Viper now enters the picture as the mission is. GonNa go there. It's a rover. Based mission and actually attempt to determine the distribution and nature of the water ice in a house it distributed horizontally how deep might be as Chunky or sheets of ice frosty those types of things. Now that we know that water ice Israeli there since pretty exciting and super important mission by purdue that hasn't been done before so viper is going to be basically answering the question of whether or not it's practical to live off the land from the standpoint of water and water ice on the moon to help explain that a little bit Water of course building blocks of life and so forth. But we're not so much interested in it from a detection of life point of view there's other activities like that with a NASA. We're interested in it as a resource because of course water is h two water self is useful to sustain humans to grow crops. If you were to have a outposts there as is ultimately the plan with the artist program you could use it for manufacturing and You can take the lunar regular which is basically mean dirt and add water to that in at a kiln and oven of some sort you could actually make lunar bricks for construction or other materials but even more interesting than than those possibilities are since water is of course hydrogen oxygen if you could break the water into hydrogen oxygen I have oxygen debris which again helps with the Sustainment. Hydrogen axes rocket fuel. And so when when you think about it the rock that's going to be taking Viper to the moon is probably going to be based on hydrogen oxygen tanks put together within a rocket propellant. And so about the possibility that if you fast forward in time if Leiper's able to confirm where the water ice is in its nature so that follow on missions could go in and harvest that water you have the possibility of ineffective gas station at the Moon. Not just for lunar use. But you can imagine going to the moon. And gassing up on the rate of Mars or on your way to Saturn or Venus or any other number of locations within the solar system so interesting. How significant is the Viper Mission in humanities returned to the moon and future Mars exploration? It's pretty important when we were taken an early look at Viper and resource prospector. The mission activity that was preceding. It one of the things that senior leaders within the administration were looking for was understanding whether or not they should be planning around utilizing. The resources of the moon to go on to Mars in particular as most of your listeners are probably well aware. It's very expensive. Daunting thing to go to Mars with humans. It's hard enough to do it with robotics even much much harder with humans and so if we have to bring everything that we need on Mars which includes not only the stuff to sustain humans but all the propellant incredible amounts of propellant crystal bring all from Earth. That's not only challenging from a logistics point of view. It's incredibly you're having to leave Earth's gravity well which is six times stronger than the gravity on the moon. And so if there was any way that we could harvest water and turn it into propellant at the moon and say. Can you envision a necklace? Say a satellite orbit of tanks that are sitting in orbit thing of gas stations and they're being continuously filled from the surface of the moon. Maybe the North Pole and the south polar continuously replenishing them. And then you can gas up if you will at the moon then you only need to bring enough propellant from Earth to get you to the moon as opposed to all the way to Mars or to whatever your destination might be then gas up at the moon and go from there to your destination if a much smaller gravity well Tumen. You have fuel that you didn't have to take the effort to bring from Earth which is costly. Expensive requires many many launch vehicles. It's just a win all the way around and so understanding how practical that is begins with a viper mission. Could you describe the science instruments on the rover now? We have three basic instruments and then a drill. I'll start with the drill. We have something called the Trident drill and it is commercially provided by honeybee robotics located in southern California and they are company. Come up with a number of different drills for Uses on Mars Moon other extraterrestrial locations. And so it looks like it's a good fit solid Drill and it's it's just perfect for us and then the Viper mission has three different sensing instruments to help us with us. So let me back up a little bit. Explain how Viper Works Viper of course is a a roving mission. That's going to go to either the north or the South Pole. Both of those would work. Because that's where the volatile oils and water resources are are to be located and we're going to be roving around using a neutron spectrometer. That's hanging off the front of the rover and think of that is our divining Rod. It has the ability to look through about a meter three feet or so of soil. Basically see through the soil and look for water is now. It does it by counting. Neutrons that are coming out of the soil. But in effect we can relate that the relative flux of neutrons coming out of the soil to water ice and hydrogen levels so as we're driving along we're measuring measuring measuring as we go with this neutron spectrometer when we hit a particularly wet location that it's detecting somewhere down in that three feet of soil that there's water ice then. We can go ahead and position ourselves as a rover over that book nation and put the drill down into the soil and ten centimeter chunks ago. As much as one meter deep and bringing up the material that are then looked at by two other instruments that we have to fill out the suite of three one is a near infrared spectrometer and the other is a Mass Spectrometer so you're hearing Spectrometer Spectrometer Spectrometer a whole over the place and of course that's with great purpose. Traders are very good at detecting the chemical composition in the nature of what they're looking at and so the neutron spectrometers just finding okay. There's is somewhere in the three feet below me but it doesn't really tell you the nature of it it's concentration it doesn't even tell you how deep it is. It just tells you that within that three feet there's water is there than the drill comes in actually pulls it up and the Mass Spectrometer near Infrared Spectrometer are actually looking as materials being drilled up. And you can imagine a pile for me where the drill bit is going into the soil and they are looking at exactly what are described the chemical nature the concentrations as a function of depth. So that we have a really good understanding of where that water ice is located. Its nature isn't Chunky and very very icy Or is it spread evenly like a you know a couple of salt and pepper and spread evenly throughout. There's lots of theories about how likely is bikers. Job is to verify what it really is. And then as you're starting to get this data how. How quickly can you react to that while the mission is actually happening and the scientists on the ground be doing during the mission? Agra question so have a semi autonomous mode of operation now your listeners will probably know that to communicate with. Mars takes a decent amount of time delay between the signal leaving Earth going to Mars. And then of course reply coming back. Just the speed of light in that distance. It takes awhile over on the moon. We're much they're still a delay. But it's faster and so it opens up the possibility then instead of driving like we do on Mars which is we set a sale series of commands and then upload them and then come back the next day and see if they are executed in what was discovered. We can be more interactive with the Moon but not joystick interactive. What I mean by that is. This won't be playing a video game because we still estimate there could be as much as ten or eleven or twelve seconds of delay between the Earth and the moon by the time it gets through. Antennas routed along the ground to the control system and so forth. So we're GONNA do some autonomous operations that means is the drivers on the ground on earth are sending commands on where to go with the rover. But what they're doing is sending waypoint commands. But that means is if I'm over here sitting at my desk I might tell the rover to go across the room ten feet away and go to that location and then let the rover figure out how to get there. So there's the autonomous part but I'm still treating it like a I'm bathing it with a carrot right so go over here. Okay now go over here okay. Now go over there and so in between each of those moves you're asking about what the scientists are doing. They're looking at the Neutron Spectrometer data. That's flying back to Earth live over this movement of the rover and they're able to react live to what they find. So let's say back example of of moving through my room. I told it to move ten feet away to the opposite side of my room but along the way we find that a five foot point. There's a really interesting as set a measurements coming off the Neutron Spectrometer. We can go ahead and go back to that location and use the drill and do whatever you like to do around that area to help us understand the nature of of the water distribution so it's pretty interactive but by way of a way point driving methodology. How Long Viper be delivered to the surface of the moon so so much about viper. That is innovative in a different approach. The Cross mission. We're when we're imagining. That was a very different approach. very streamlined and very cost effective for NASA technicians. Were bringing the same thing to this mission and another interesting facet of vipers. Your question are we getting to the moon? Normally the way NASA would do it is it would acquire a launch vehicle rocket that helps it leave earth and we would get our ride to the moon and then our spacecraft would take over from there we would do. The landing would separate the rover from the lander once. If it landed and off. We go very tradition instead. We're actually going to be relying on the commercial world through what's called the clips program. Eclipse IS C. L. P. S. stands for commercial lunar payload services. And what we're doing is really innovative. We're going to have a group of candidate. Contractors of Commercial Contractors are already pre approved at this time as I'm speaking with you there's fourteen different companies were already approved on this contract and then we issue tasks we NASA issue tasks to them. They could be very small tasks delivering a small instrument to space to the surface of the moon to orbit. Amon whatever you want or it could be something much larger like Viper and so we're GONNA use this clips program to deliver viper to the surface of the Moon. And what's really interesting for those who are quite familiar with how this normally works. What we're basically going to be is telling the commercial parties in their proposing back to us of how they would do it. You'RE GONNA get the Viper Rover on date ex- and then I want to be rolling off the surface of the moon at location X Y on date Z. And then they workout everything in between those two possibilities so they get the figure out when they're GONNA launch they get to figure out what much vehicle they go on. They get to design the spacecraft. That'll carry us from the journey of launching from Earth to landing down on the surface. That could decide if they want to go into lunar orbit or directly head to the moon and directly land when they get there. We officially don't care. We just know that we're going to give you the rover on the state that we want to be rolling off on the surface in moon on this other date I really think of as kind of like an Uber. Ride to the moon. That's very different than what we've been used traditionally right Yup Dan. What's it like to be? The Project Manager for Viper. Well pretty awesome. Let me just say that. I've I've had a pretty Pretty blessed career here at NASA. This is my third year. Cassatt I I got to lead the outcross mission which really rewrote the books on the nature of the Moon. And now I'm having the opportunity to go and lead the Viper mission which is GonNa go on follow up on the Cross and eller. Oh and Chandra on missions all who contributed to learning the moon and actually ground truth at water ice question so to be able to have a really killer team like we have multiple centers of the best of the best all working on this effort that will ultimately long after my time be the path finding for a whole commercial ecosystem associated with the moon enabling humans to go further and further in Solar System. More quickly more cost effective. And what's not about that? It's pretty fantastic. It does sound tastic. What have you learned as the project manager of Viper and its predecessors that could be helpful to other Nassar PM's I'm a pretty patient guy and This whole processes tried even my patients. And what I mean by that is. It's no easy feat to get a mission greenlighted right approved because there's so many interesting things that the agency could be doing with its money and they're all kind of competing with each other and so it's it's a tough environment to advocate for what you think makes really good sense in the best interest of the agency. And that's why even getting to the point that we are now which is the beginning of a mission and approved. Mission is quite an accomplishment from a team. Point of view though project manager I I have always felt that having a completely open in candidate environment in which the team works. Is Your Best Elixir for success. I mean it's really really important that when you get these this group of people together that they feel like they're getting all the information what's really going on. These are all grownups. Treat them as such gives them as much information as you can try to decrease the noise? There's always a lot of reporting noise and questions that come down. Try Not to bother them with that. That's your job and then create an environment where they could really be creative because it really fits that old adage about the sum of the parts and and the greatness of team. If everyone on the team feels that. They're endebted and willingly indebted to all the other parts of the team. Really Amazing things happen. Everyone feels they gotta bring their a game and that it'll be worthwhile When when the mission culminates on very pleased with all our the collaborative efforts for the Viper mission similar to other collaborations across the agency. I think so what we've done is the viper mission is being led out of NASA Ames Research Center votes in very close coupled with NASA Johnson. The rovers actually being built at NASA Johnson and the flight software for the Rovers being done at NASA AMES. Because we both have some good experience in those areas. The instruments two of them are being designed at NASA Ames one of them at NASA Kennedy Yelm Solo Mass Spectrometers at Nasa Candy. Than I mentioned earlier that we're actually buying a commercial drill So essays and even developing that. It's buying it off the shelf. And then we have other relationships for example with NASA Glen and Glen has a really good facility up there for testing mobility systems. You Know Rover systems wheel designs and so forth. So we're really using the best from around the agency both the best people and the best infrastructure capabilities to try and buy down the risk of the super interesting mission before we go to actually execute it. It has been super interesting and talking with you and hearing about. It has really been interesting. I really do appreciate you taking time to join us today on the podcast. Absolutely great fun. You have any closing thoughts while I just. I just want everyone to watch along as the Viper mission precedes through. Its design work. We're GONNA have some really interesting videos during development if you think you understand what a off. World Rover looks like your minds can be blown a little bit because this rover actually can do what we call a turtle swim it rolls. Like rovers do nuts. It's normal operation. But we actually came up with a way that if we find ourselves and really soft soil where you could easily see a rover getting stuck. Just doing rolling. You're actually have a way to kind of swim or crawl out of it and I hope we don't have to use it because that means things are are challenging on the mission. But it's nice that we have that and that's like nothing anyone has ever seen before. I think our execution model is also going to be very different. The agency is always looking for how it can be increasingly more relevant to current capabilities and technologies and our team has already demonstrated ability to to push us forward to kind of path. Find that frankly this clips contract is yet another example of it. The moment NASA is able to acquire capability from industry. It should not be competing with that and it has no interest in competing with that I joke with people that whenever I go and travel. I don't fly on an asset. I flying coach on a commercial airliner like everybody else. And that's because the commercial world has brought cost efficiency savings and all that to it to make that the smart thing to do and so maybe the mission that'll follow behind. Viper WILL BE ONE. That's commercially provided. Maybe it'll be a commercially provided over. That's great the industry's ready to do that. Then let's path find on that route and we spend our activities with the NASA. Doing the really hard and very risky stuff. That isn't really possible by for profit commercial industry. We just always keep that as our divining. Rod doesn't agency going forward to great things links to topics discussed during our conversation along with Dan's bio and a show transcript are available at Apple Dot Nasa Dot Gov Slash podcast. Dan talked about the Commercial Lunar Payload Services Initiative that will deliver viper to the moon. Go Get to learn more about clips during our next episode. When Steve Clarke the NASA Science Mission Directorate Deputy Associate Administrator for exploration joins US ON THE PODCAST? If you have ideas for guests or interview topics please let us know on twitter at NASA apple and use the Hashtag. Small steps. Giant leaps as always. Thanks for listening.
Small Steps, Giant Leaps: Episode 8, Engineering NASAs Science Missions
"The. A different paradigms working with one hundred missions give or take than dealing with two or three very very large missions. I think most people would be surprised at just how much is happening on a daily weekly monthly quarterly basis that it would it would really blow your mind, you have this focus on something that you helped develop from the very beginning all the way through to seeing produce science that was just a dream at the very beginning of the project. You're listening to small steps giant, leaps and NASA, apple knowledge services podcast, featuring interviews and stories tapping into project experiences in order to unravel lessons learned identify best practices and discover novel ideas, I'm lonely. Our guest today as from Nasr's science mission. Directorate we're going to talk about science, but the focus is going to be on engineering as we bring in chief engineer for the science mission. Directorate Joe Gaz berry, Joe thank you for joining us. Sure, let's start by talking about your role as the science mission. Directorate chief engineer for some of the challenges of being an engineer specifically chief engineer in a mission directorate that focuses on science. So the science mission directorate is the second largest mission directorate at NASA, the SMD group as a whole is focused on. The sciences and outcome not necessarily a means to achieve that outcome. So wouldn't were looking to get that groundbreaking science. It requires a vast amount of engineering everything that people are familiar with from defining requirements to designing solutions to chief those requirements fabricating and testing the systems that that we design deploying operating the systems and then finally completing the mission and ending the mission gracefully all that comes from engineering side of SMD. And so the chief engineer for the mission directorate is responsible for looking at all the technical progress. That's going on across the mission directorate's broad portfolio and assessing whether there's issues that cross boundaries that cross into areas that other groups may not be thinking about and they provide that technical engineering voice that balances out how the science. And scientists who are primarily those who run the leadership positions for the the different divisions within SMD to provide them with a technical engineering view of how their projects and programs are progressing that that is challenge. The you know, like I said most of the people in the mission directorate as a headquarters are scientists of there's a good mix of engineers. But but again, they really rely on our expertise as the as the chief engineers to provide them that information that they require when they're trying to assess how project is progressing and whether it's achieving its goals. Right. Will it will it be launched on time? Will it meet the requirements that that we laid out for it that we set out when we either competed a project or program or directed it to be done to get a very particular high value of piece of science, and so the SMP chief engineer occupies, a an interesting role in that respect. A may also be worth pointing out. The chief engineer of mission directorate is a is a different term than a chief engineer, maybe four particular activity like a project or program. Many of the different NASA centers and organizations throughout both government and private industry have different names for the lead technical person on a project some people refer to it as chief engineer other people refer to it as the mission systems engineer, the lead systems engineer, the chief architect, many terms described that position that's a very different thing than being an organizational chief engineer such as that the SMD chief engineer, which in our case, it's about assessing across multiple projects and programs when you're on a single project to program, you're looking at the completing the technical implementation of that project and making sure that you're looking across the project, and so it's a different. Scope that you're dealing with it at mission director level. How would you describe your working relationship with the chief engineers of NASA science programs and projects across the agency? It's a very good relationship that we have we tend to touch base on a very regular basis usually every week or every other week with the different implementing NASA centers because most of SMD's projects and programs are run through one of the NASA centers and so similar to the science mission director chief engineer each center has a chief engineer or lead engineer, and so working with those people to understand more directly. What's going on with the projects and programs at their center is very important because they have view at a at a lower level that we may not necessarily be able to to see from from where we sit. And so there's a really good information information exchange on a regular basis with the NASA center, chief engineers, and then on particular projects and programs. We get to meet with those technical leads on a fairly regular basis usually on a quarterly basis. But we also make sure that we opened our door whenever there's any kind of technical or other concern on a project that that if there's something that they see that they want us to be aware of they all know how to get in touch with us if if not directly for some of our larger programs, they can always work with their center chief engineer or some cases, the size mission directorate has broken up the work into programs, and there's actually a program chief engineer that's assigned at a NASA center, and that would be the person that they would work through. And then that person we didn't in touch with us. It's a good relationship. A lot of the people that work as chief engineers or mission systems engineers on our larger projects have decades of experience doing this. And so it's one of those things where. Nobody has the right answer all the time. And so we tend to bounce ideas off of each other learn from each other as we go along just like any other relationship. It's it's important that you're always listening and understanding the concerns at that particular person has in trying to see it from their point of view. The biggest impact or perhaps lasting influence. A chief engineer has on projects. It's a great question. We as the as the lead technical person on project, you're in a unique and singular position to influence how that shape of that project takes hold from. If you're lucky enough to have been on the project from the very beginning. When when they ridge it'll concept was put together a lot of lot of people referred to that period is as in a NASA projects broken up into phases, and they referred to that phase as either pre phase Aor phase a in the in that phase a lot of the initial shaping of the molding of the clay starts. And if you're a chief engineer emission systems engineer that's involved in that part of the process, you can start to direct kind of the high level technical trades about that project at that early stage. And then when we move into the end of the formulation phase which in the NASA. Vernacular is prefixing phase. A and phase be we have a crossover point at our preliminary design review or PDR where a project is ready to move into implementation. The project gets confirmed as a official project that's going to move forward into implementation that that happens. That's usually NASA headquarters of big NASA headquarters, meaning called the key decision point see an from that point on. It's it's about taking the the design that fell out of that concept that as the chief engineer you helped mold and actually putting it into action. You know, we're we're gonna start making engineering models or test units to check out some of our more complex. Maybe not. So sure that this design is the way that we would wanna go and progressing through to fabrication of the flight unit. The thing that's actually gonna go either up space or on pollute or in an aircraft. And in that phase as the. Chief engineer your position is one of checking to make sure all the different people and in items and activities are happening in unison at the very challenging thing. Usually have a whole team of people that are helping you on your systems engineering team to work those seems or gaps any project that I've ever seen. You know, you always have issues with seams and gaps. You know, this group may not necessarily be be aware of what's going on with another part of the project. And so making sure that somebody's covering to make sure that they are working together. And they're not pursuing different goals is a real challenge in the event comes to a head during the implementation phase through fabrication, and then environmental test happens at the end of the implementation phase where the project is taken through a rigorous test program that simulates its flight environment and for spaceflight programs. That's usually. A series of vibration tests tests to check electromagnetic compatibility. And then finally a thermal test thermal vacuum test, which is essentially a space simulation tests base environments relation tests. And if you get through all that you get the pleasure of stacking, your your beloved project up on a rocket and watching it launch to space if it's a spaceflight project and hoping that it gets placed in the right orbit. And then from there, the chief engineers role is really to make sure that the checkout once its on orbit happens the way that that people are expecting it to so that you can then turn the project over to those that will operate it usually a group of people that are specialized mission operators as well as the science team in a science mission directorate mission. The ultimate goal is to turned the ownership of everything that you built over to the chief scientist or the principal investigator on are what are called PI led mission. So that they can go get the valuable science that everybody was expecting from them. And so the lasting influence of chief engineer is seeing that science come through comedown and seeing all the great work. That's done. That's put up in the news media in academic papers and findings follow on titties to see that all the hard work put in for, you know, in some cases, we've got projects such as the James Webb space telescope that where people have spent ten or fifteen years of their career on the same project. And so they're gonna look back when James Webb delivers that exquisite science, and they should be very proud of what they were able to chief. It's great explanation. Thanks, joe. John no problem you've worked at both the center and the agency leveling technical leadership positions. What are some of the similarities and differences of the agency perspective versus center perspective when you work again generally at a at a NASA center. You are involved in the planning and execution of a particular project, or or in some cases, if you're like a organizational technical leader or chief engineer, sometimes you're volved in implementation of several projects at once especially at some of our larger NASA centers, like gutter spaceflight center or Nasr's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, but you are focused on those projects and seeing that they get through you're not necessarily looking at cross multiple projects across multiple groups many times, if if you're focused on SMD missions, you're not necessarily paying close attention to what's going on in human spaceflight or aeronautics or in our space technology mission directorate, the the kinds of work that they're doing. And so you really don't have that much time to pop up and kind of see what's going on across the entire agency. So. You rely on people working at the agency level to provide you that information. And so when you move up to to work at the agency level your job is to really provide that kind of information guidance to the centers in in the chief engineers and the people working those projects in real time. You also have this responsibility of agency level, which is is different than at the center level for supplying information guidance to the the people who are making longer term decisions at a lot of times with SMD or the agency they're developing policy. The there's a lot more focus on developing positions with respect to what are we doing across the entire portfolio. What are we doing to address the needs of our members of congress, and their particular information that they're writing into different appropriations language if you will? And then you know, what what can we do improve the agency? Across the board. You know is there something in project management improvements? We have activities going on at headquarters. Right. How in which a lot of the mission director chief engineers and office of chief engineers involved to improve project program management on something that we are responding to actions from the agency from the government accountability office. And so those are the things that usually at the center level, you're not thinking about because you've got a job to do to execute these particular projects, and so you're you're kind of glad for the agency people to cover that for you. And luckily, those people were there to take care of that. So you can you can get your job done. Let's which gears and look back at some of your previous roles puts light to do in-house space flight hardware development at one of neces- small centers such as Langley research center, which primarily does research. I think the first thing to keep in mind. Is that NASA is in general fairly unique in the federal government that we do have at every center in the agency, including the research centers. We have people on the centers doing space flight hardware work, whether that's a very small project or research technology development project or something is large as part of the Mars twenty twenty Rovers that are being built an integrated in house at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, it is kind of a unique position. If you look at a lot of the other government labs agencies. It's not that usual that they're doing that kind of work. And so it is something to be proud of as as a somebody who works at NASA that that we have people that can can do this very complicated work and do it. Well, and so at at a small center like Essa Langley, we we don't tend to. Focus on spaceflight as our primary goal. Although I would say that over the the decades the way that we approach what's done in space versus what used to be called fundamental research has changed. We tend to kinda mix up the different buckets quite a bit. We tend to have people who contribute the deep knowledge that they have from being involved in research projects to provide information. The end subject matter expertise on the execution of spaceflight projects. So it happens on a less frequent basis. But it it does happen where a small centre research center has a project that is focused on a particular science measurement or particular item that they need to deliver where they're doing the work in house at the smaller center. So I had the opportunity to work on a project where it was an earth observing project called the stratosphere aerosol and gas experiment. Or sage it was actually the fifth generation that instrument at NASA Langley had contributed to add manage that project over the last three decades. It was a project that contributed to some of the information that led to things like the Montreal protocol few remember in the mid nineteen eighties. There was a lot of concern about chlorofluorocarbons and having a hole in the ozone layer. And so there was a lot of concern about the depletion of the ozone layer. And the sage measurements were part of the measurements. That led to seeing that there was a decline in those layer. And then once the world got together and and signed the Montreal protocol, which led to the ban of CFC's a across the world where able to continue that measurement and that record to show the recovery of ozone layer that we hope that continues that when we launched sage three in twenty seventeen we were hoping. To see the tail end of the continuity in the record of those layer to see that it was recovering is as scientists had hoped. And so that was very particular Amazon composition science goal. That Langley had always had a piece of and so that was an opportunity to to work on in-house spaceflight development at a smaller center in there's examples at Glenn research center at Ames research center, which were the two other main research centers within the agency where they have you know, these areas that they're working. Now, the other thing that happens quite often at the research centers is they get involved in technology development. So a lot of space flight hardware development in house hardware development, happens around turning some of the research that they've worked on into a demonstration that that flies in space. And so it's kind of a unique thing working at a small center. There's not as many. Resources as much emphasis on space flight hardware development, as you might find it like a Goddard Space Flight center Johnson Space Center, and so you have to make do you have to understand that? You don't have a whole group of people that are familiar with this from doing it over and over and over again. And so it actually puts a lot more emphasis on the teamwork in the work of chief engineer, and some of the technical leads to make sure that they're watching those seams in those gaps between the different areas because you're independent people on any particular part of the project may may not this may be the first time the second time that they've ever done this. And so they may not be as experience at understanding. Hey, you know, change the size of this this electron XBox that's gonna have the all these effects to the rest of the project. So that that's a very unique experience. I will say that smaller projects such. Those that happen it at research centres, and and again projects of all sizes happen at the larger space flight centers that it does give you a very good appreciation for the entire project. Life cycle for all the effects that go into something that allows you to apply that to multiple scenarios in multiple missions. And so it gave me a quite a layup. When I saw that same process repeat on in multiple projects when it came to the agency to help out in the science mission directorate as the as chief engineer when of the mission of working on now that garner a lot of interest the science mission directorate we have over forty missions in either formulation or implementation. So stepping through the different phases of development prior to launch. And then we have another fifty five or so that are either in operations or extended operations things that have been you know, like. The classic example is the the Voyager missions. You know, they've been operating for forty years. And so we look at all of those projects the ones that stand out that are in development right now. Obviously, the James Webb space telescope is a large effort, you know, has been going on for ten plus years getting very close to being completed. And so we watched that one very carefully Marsh. Wait twenty is another large project that will launch in July twenty twenty another flagship mission that's nearing completion. And then, you know, on the smaller end, we we've got a tremendous amount emissions in fact here within a couple of weeks, we'll be launching the orbiting carbon observatory three or three that is a mission that will be launched to the international space ation something that is very similar to the sage three mission that I launched which also went to the international space station. And that is also a follow onto a mission that had been going for very long time called CO two. And so three will will carry that measurement where it'll be mapping a measuring mapping carbon dioxide in detail across the entire globe, a very important measurement. When when you start to talk about, you know, sources of carbon dioxide sinks of carbon dioxide, and what the different processes are that create different areas of atmospheric carbon dioxide both man made and natural. And then and then, you know, we the other focus in the science mission directorate over the last two or three years has been what can we do to increase the number of missions? And so we we've been spending a lot of time looking at small satellite missions things where we can launch multiple spacecraft at once perhaps have a fleet or a constellation of of different spacecraft that all make up a mission. And so there's a couple of mission. In early development that there are looking at that one mission that was launched a few years ago was kind of a precursor mission that launched out of the earth science division within the science mission directorate called cygnus that is a mission. That's that looks at tropical cyclone development. And so that that's a very early example of what we can do with the constellation. They're producing science that is very important for people who worry about things like hurricanes and tropical cyclones in in Asia. And so that we have missions going in helium physics. I was lucky enough to be part of the launch campaign in the in the launch of the Parker solar probe last summer. That was a tremendous mission that is going to bring back some information about the sun that we've never been able to gather it's going to get closer to the sun than any mission that's ever launched. And so we have a we have a quite a portfolio, it's different paradigms working with a hundred missions give or take. Than dealing with two or three very very large missions keeping track of wall is one of the jobs of chief engineer, so far what has been your most rewarding fraudulent science research to be involved in. It's really hard to be being a project. Chief engineer mainly because you you have this focus on something that you helped develop from the very beginning all the way through to sing produce science that was just a dream at the very beginning of the project. And so I would think as a as a career something that's impacted me. So far has been that experience that I had a as a as a project chief engineer on the on the stage three mission that we like say we launched back in twenty seventeen that said the the last year and a half appear as headquarters working in science mission. Directorate there's been multiple things that I've been involved in of have really. Had an impact on on the way that I see not only my career. But really NASA general we had a year in county or twenty eight teen in SMD where we I think we supported something like eight or nine launches which is one of the highest number of launches that we've ever had in Essen D. And so there were two or three of those that really were challenging Parker solar probe is one that I that I mentioned that that one had a a few little issues and hangups toward the very end. And so it was Ray a rewarding to see that launch. And it launched on a delta four heavy, which is a extra large launch vehicle, and so very impressive launch from Kennedy Space Center in Cape Canaveral down in Florida. And then I think one of the last ones twenty eighteen that I remembered actually being at was the ice at to launch which was launched out of Hannah burger for space out, California and. That's a mission that has a laser. That's measuring a ice allegation from polar orbit and early. My career had the opportunity to work on the calypso mission, which is another space based laser light our mission. And so that the ice at two mission was something that I was paying very close attention to. But yeah, I mean, it's it's very hard to really point out one particular project or or event because you know, the whole time I've been up at the science mission directorate in this position. It's been it's really been a joy to work here on experience. The day-to-day flow of information inactivity in and I would say sometimes it's almost overwhelming how how much gets done across agency that I think most people would be surprised at just how much is happening on a daily weekly monthly quarterly basis that it would it would really blow your mind. And how long have you been with Nassan? How long have you had with some? Indeed, I've been a NASA civil servant for almost twenty years. I started as a cooperative education student back at at NASA. Langley in Hampton, Virginia right out of undergrad. I was an aerospace engineering student at Penn State university, actually in Pennsylvania had the opportunity to do a cooperative education rotation at NASA Langley jumped of chance and basically never left. I had the opportunity to get hired on at a time. When NASA wasn't hiring that many people, and that just kind of blossomed into career where you know, for whatever reason I had the opportunity to be placed on a few different flight projects, you know, on these very narrow areas that that NASA Langley was working with science on. And then had the opportunity after my rotation. As a chief engineer on the stage three mission to come up to Headcorn. Orders and work with the office of the chief engineer and be the SMD chief engineer for a period of time. And it's been a year and a half that I've been in this position. And you know, I'll rotate back to NASA Langley, and they'll they'll have somebody else come in here and do this job. But it has been a something that never be able to forget. From your vantage point after twenty years with the agency. How do you see NASA workforce demographics factoring into planning and executing science and engineering projects? Now says not that dissimilar from a lot of other areas of the federal government. We we have a a large group of people that have worked to NASA for for many decades. There's a bubble. In fact, of people who have have, you know, twenty five to thirty years of experience or more who are in a position within the next five to ten years to to retire. And there really was a period within NASA from about the mid nineteen nineties through about two thousand four two thousand five where where there was very few people hired and so- demographically. We we have a challenge ahead of us to ensure that as the the very experienced engineers and and signed. Tists are leaving that we can fill all those gaps. And it's really comes down to making sure that the group not only that is right behind them. The demographic group that I'm in people with fifteen to twenty five, you know, years of experience, but the groups of people that we've hired in the last five to ten years that we give them the right hands on training. So that they know how to execute are different projects. And that that's where having some experience working in house during development and space projects is absolutely critical keeping that workforce sharp, you know, they're they understand at a component level. What it takes to to get different work done. So that later in their career win, you know, maybe it's a larger project, maybe it's a different project. They're being the cognisant subject matter expert or over site on a project that you know, maybe a one of our great. Eight prime contractors, you know, industry partners commercial industry are executing that you have that experience to backup. What that contractors doing into to understand how they're how they're executing? And so you know, that that that has been a challenge because the the numbers have been out of proportion in and I think Nastase through hiring initiatives that I've seen over the last three to five years have have been really on this kick of hey, you know, we need to start hiring. We need to start bringing in people who are coming straight out of college. Or maybe some of our contractors who only have a few years of experience with a interested in becoming a civil servant. Those are things that are really picking up steam, and I expect to pick up even more steam over the next five to ten years. But, but it it is challenge we, you know, it's gonna fall in a lot of ways is gonna fall on this smaller group of people that are just from a numbers perspective. There's just not that many people in that twenty plus year experie-. Gap to be able to to bridge that gap to that. Next generation. That's coming online right now. Very interesting. Something to definitely keep an eye on. So thanks for taking time to talk with us today. Yes, I q and it was my pleasure. Always available in. If anybody ever has any questions. Sure, you can get my contact formation. Always happy to chat with with anybody. That's interested. Thank you so much. Is there anything else you'd like to add? I would just like to say the working at NASA is just as exciting as everybody has described. It. I think there's a lot of thought that maybe you know, you grow up you see NASA need here about the Apollo days in the shuttle days, launching international space station. And you may think that you know, all the all the good stuff is behind us. But that's not the world that I've seen. We have a lot of exciting work that is being put on our plate. And it's just as exciting. If not more exciting than you imagined when you were ten or twelve years old watching a rocket launch. And so I would say to the people that are thinking about going into engineering or science as a as a career come on board. We would love to have you and you'll have a great time. You'll find links to topics mentioned on the show today along with jokes bio and a transcript on our website at apple dot NASA dot gov slash podcast. We'd like to hear your ideas for future shows if you want to suggest a guest or topic, please let us know on Twitter at NASA. Apple and used the hashtag small steps giant leaps. If you haven't already. Here's a quick reminder to subscribe to the podcast. So you won't miss an episode of small steps giant leaps. Thanks for the sinning.
NASA Selects First Commercial Moon Landing Services for Artemis Program
"Hey, space news pod listeners if you wanna show your opinions give feedback or tell me what you're thinking said me, a voice message voice messages, earn easy way for you to send me audio the might end up in a future episode of the space news, pod voice messages are the latest feature from anchor the platform, I used to make this podcast if you have an idea for an episode if you want me to cover something, you can send me a voice message right now from wherever you're listening, just tap. The Lincoln my show notes. And I can't wait to hear from you to order listening to the space news pod. So that means you like podcasts and you probably like music too. So on Spotify, you can listen to all of those things, all your podcasts, and all of your music in one place in, you don't need a premium account. They have a huge catalog of podcasts on every topic including space news pod. You can follow your favorite podcast. He never miss episodes. Download episodes. Listen to off line and easily share what you're listening to with your friends with Spotify integrations with. Social media platforms like Instagram. So just searched for space news pod on the Spotify app. Browse podcasts in the your library tab and follow me. So you never miss an episode of space news. Pot Spotify, the world's leading music, streaming service in now it can be your go-to for podcasts too. Hello. And welcome back to the space news. Pod daily podcast about space science and tech. I'm your host will Walden it in today's episode I'm going to be talking about Nasr's first selections for their commercial moon landing services for the est program. Now, the artists program is a series of launches. And let's see how should I put this launches and landings for Rovers and humans on the moon, but also for the lunar gateway. So there are some companies out there that NASA has selected to be the first in this program in NASA has selected three commercial moon landing service providers that will deliver science and technology payloads under the commercial, lunar payload services. C L P S, as part of the artists program and each commercial Lander will carry NASA provided payloads that will conduct science investigations and demonstrated. Vance technologies on the lunar surface, which will bring astronauts back to the moon by twenty twenty four NASA administrator, Jim Bryden Stein said our selection of these US commercial, landing service providers represents America's return to the moon surface for the first time in decades, as a huge step forward for artists lunar exploration plans next year. Our initial science and technology research will be on the lunar surface, which will help support, sending the first. Woman in the next man to the moon in five years investing in these commercial landing services. Also is another step to build a commercial space economy beyond low earth orbit. So each one of these partners, they're going to send different NASA instruments to the lunar surface. And by the end of the summer, NASA will determine which payloads will fly on each flight in the potential payloads include instruments that will conduct new lunar science pinpoint Lander position measured. The lunar radiation of ironman, assess, how Lander an astronaut activity affects the moon in desist with navigation precision, among other capabilities in the selections are Astro botic of Pittsburgh. They been awarded seventy nine point five million dollars and have proposed to fly as many as fourteen payloads to a large crater on the near side of the moon by July twenty twenty one next up is intuitive machines of. Houston, and they've been awarded seventy seven million dollars and intuitive machines proposed to fly as many as five payloads to a scientifically intriguing dark spot on the moon by July of twenty twenty one in orbit beyond of Edison. New Jersey has been awarded ninety seven million dollars and is proposing to fly as many as four payloads to a lava plain in one of the moons craters by September of twenty twenty so that being said about a year and couple of months from now there's going to be a lunar Lander in he lava plain in one of the moons craters, if all goes well for orbit beyond of Edison, New Jersey in NASA science mission directorate in Washington, the associate administrator said that these landings are just the beginning of exciting commercial partnerships, though will bring us closer to solving the many scientific mysteries of our moon. Our solar system and beyond, and what we learn will not only change our view of the universe. But also prepare our human missions to the moon and eventually Mars now. Hold on one second. I'll be right back. Hi everyone. I wanna let you know, about inker dot FM as we're I host my podcast in, I find that it's the easiest place to do that. And it gives you everything that you need in one place, for free, which you can start. Podcasting from your phone, or from your computer. You don't need special crazy equipment to start doing it. You can talk into your phone, you'll need editing equipment that costs thousands of dollars to start a podcast, you can do it from anywhere in when you're done, recording your episode anchored at FM will distribute it. So it can be hard everywhere on Spotify. Apple podcast, Google podcasts, Stitcher, every place that podcasts can be heard, and you can make money with your podcast. It's pretty simple. There is no minimum listenership to start making money with anchor. So if you wanna make a little bit of money while having a cool podcast, while download the crap or go to anchor dot FM to get started. All right. Welcome back from that break. Now, I want to say thank you to everyone who's been supporting this podcast by subscribing, you are amazing. And now let's get back to some moon stuff. All right. So these companies are going to be providing services to NASA in NASA has always used partners commercial partners to deliver things to the moon. So the initial Apollo astronauts got to the moon from rockets that weren't built by NASA, but were built by a commercial company for NASA all the little pieces that are, you know, the go into these sort of missions, they're built by other companies. So say somebody might make the nose cone of the of the lunar Lander, right? Somebody might make the windows of the lunar Lander, somebody might make some electricity. You know. Some electric stuff for the Lander, you know, things like that, though. That's the kind of stuff I'm just using those abroad example. But those are the kind of things that these kind of companies do, but these companies in particular are going to make Landers and sent them to the moon and they will probably be sending them up to the moon on SpaceX falcon nine rocket. I know two of them have already signed up for falcon nine launches. So fell can nine. We'll be sending these pe- loads to the moon. Spacex will be sending things to the moon and these other companies these other commercial companies Astro botic of Pittsburgh intuitive machines of Houston in orbit beyond of Edison, New Jersey. They'll be sending actual stuff to the moon, Bobi sending Landers in scientific equipment to the lunar surface in the C. L P S program manager and Nasr's Johnson Space Center in Houston said this announcement star. It's a significant step in Nasr's collaboration with our commercial partners and Nasr's committed to working with industry to enable the next round of lunar exploration. The companies we have selected represent a diverse community of exciting small American companies each with their own unique innovative approach to getting to the moon. We look forward to working with them to have our payloads delivered in opening the door for returning humans to the moon in twenty twenty four in NASA. Is fast tracking a human launch to the moon. It's going to happen in two thousand twenty four that's only five years from now and, you know, it's been a long time since we've been to the moon, we got, you know, last ones were in the seventies landings were in the seventies. So it's twenty nineteen. Now in twenty twenty four finally people will be landing on the moon from US rocket from US soil. That's the plan, according to NASA. And these companies are going to help them out, and I want to say thank you for you all for helping me out because every time you listened to this podcast, every time you subscribe, and download it, it really does help out. So thank you so much for all of the support. And thank you to my patriot patrons without you. I couldn't be I wouldn't be able to upgrade anything, you know, now the studios looking like a studio. I have a great Mike road podcast, Mike, I have some soundproofing in the booth here. I have like an actual booth that I'm working on, so two hundred episodes in one hundred thousand downloads, thanks to you all. Thanks to you amazing folks. So I will, I will be back tomorrow with some more space news. But I want to say thank you for taking the time out of your day to spend it here with me on the space news pod. My name is will Walden, and I've been your host, and I will see a soon.
DR THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: Associate Administrator for NASAs Science Mission Directorate
"We'll go to your online coffee break where we discussed bite-size topics that inspire educates and entertains here's your host a software. Innovator award winning marketer and astronomy space boss shuck fields. Hello. Thanks for joining me today for your online caught break today. I'll have to welcome. My special guest. Dr Thomas Zurbuchen Thomas is the associate administrator for the science mission. Directorate at NASA. He is an award winning astrophysicist with a strong research background in solar and healers Feerick. Physics. I was fortunate to I meet Thomas at the Parker solar pro launch last August. And again at the ultimate tweet, y y but most exciting was recent trip to NASA headquarters in Washington DC where Thomas sat down with to discuss his incredible career and Kurt responsibilities for the NASA. Science mission directorate. Online coffee break. Thomas. The one thing that I would love to hear is where your passion for science came from. Now, I knew group in Switzerland. I was just if you tell me more about that. So as opposed to many of my colleagues here, I actually grew up in. I'm very nontechnical environment. Really, all my neighbors were farmers, and my fodder was a pastor. So I didn't know a single engineering sigma scientist that order is. What's really amazing actually is recognition that I grew up out there in nature on their night sky that had he's farmers, and you know, including my father were really appreciating the beauty of nature. And so for me signs came from trying to understand the beauty of nature, and what I realized the more I knew about science, the more I appreciated the beauty of nature. Many people think like once you understand the nights guy better misery goes away. Oh, no. It's the opposite. The more, you know. About it. The more mystery or is more just amazing worlds are out there than others only see at that. I see a world. That's that's what happens when you. Learn science for me. It's all about the beauty of nature and importance of nature to always felt that nature was more important than anyone of us. It was kind of what was part of us bed really set the stage. So to say in many ways the rules laws of nature. I mean, they really feel important and exploring does with the tools of signs to seems like one of the most worthwhile. Things went on. Could do see I can totally really that too. Because I'm a huge amateurs stran-, my nature. I can still remember my first time getting a telescope for Christmas. And of course, it was cloudy for like a week after that usually happens that way to do you remember I imagine the night since which we're just gorgeous to member like you. I look through a telescope. So I do remember, of course, sitting on top of the roof at my house, and it's going to imagine a house very far away kind of the number of. Houses around in my neighborhood are only five one St. plan sometimes they'd we'll sow so it's very very dark. So the milky way's not some kind of assertion. You have to learn about it. It's right there in the planet's come up, it feels sprite or a little bit. And but then the first big thing that I did frankly, I actually lot later I say while I was actually working in professional telescope by volunteer to help out the guy cold willed Paula weld. So he was swift key student, and he wants my astronomy, professor. So I say young student. I basically left wreck that could never afford a telescope. I didn't know anybody. But when I started studying physics, I got to know this guy, and I all in tier during the night cold winter nights with a coat sitting out there. And and then frankly, will what built it as he told us boldy stories just amazing stories, and you know, like about research. About individuals about people. I think one of the most amazing things is to kind of intersection of nature, and that expiration, and derive explorer that are out there. Trying to scientists that are trying to come together at this. So I remember these nights there will always be in front of my mind when I think about the nights going where do your I guess passion and experience with with leading team and motivated team where did that come from? You know, I as part of my Swiss off grid bringing I had to be in the military. Okay. Big coincidence of my life and really mattered axios. Also, an athlete at laid college volleyball. And so I became the team lead in both. And basically what I realized is that in many cases, I was actually not the best guy on the court. But if I could built the right in varmint for people to excel we were a better team. And I realized. That and take some Hewlett humility, you know. So I'm not decent scientist. I'm not the best scientist, but I know good science. And so for me, I can help signs the most by really learning how to do that. In takes a lot of breakfast. A lot of leadership learning. It's just like engineering, which is failing a lot of times like mouth just didn't work like if I really turn loud here that didn't really work. Right. But you know, like, how do I really make sure I inspire right? And how can I help for that? How do I encourage lift others because if I do that then it works better. They're more motivated, you know? And so for me, I I remember the first time that happened to me the story is in the military kind of the whole most horrible part of the job was after moving to all the troops. Somebody at to put on the barbed buyer. Everybody else went to bat, and then everybody was punished or and. A week because they did something wrong had to put that on our to sergeant who had to put the team together. So I did that. And of course, I organized a team went the data. You know? I remember I send a guy out for drinks. You know, just to make sure that we because we were working till two or three IM. Right. So everybody was fine. I remember that next time. I was the pivotal moment of my life. The next time. We moved basically, you know, captain stood in front of us. And basically said, hey, we're going to have to put up the barbed wires some soldier from the back while they call Louis right guy. Always got in trouble that I would like to all in tier to put up the part wire on their one condition. Thomas is delete. Well, so basically, you know, here's the trick. If you've ever been in a good team, you router to horrible work in that great team, then great work in a horrible team. And so for me once you learn that, right? So for me learn it kind of with scratches on my forearms, and you know, gloss on, but I learned that there. So I fall miscarried that four, and I tried to be a student of leadership, and that that helps me really well here because it part of it that humility right because you have to recognize you're not the best most things, you know. And but the goal is not yet. Don't have to be perfect eater. The goal is that the. Team is perfect. And that that's just a standard. I'd we can aspire to. But I don't personally I have to beat her. That's what I believe in. You have a model of the solar Parker pro behind you. And that's where I met. You. I understand that. He'll physics is a strong passion, yours to which wells you that you know, I started doing my PHD in a group that the first experiment on the surface of the moon, which is that solar saying it looks like aluminum foil handing from a stand. So that was actually done in Switzerland. And so I I worked there. So basically what they did there is collected particles. So that the group where my kind of intellectual heritage is is is how to measure particles learning about the history of the solar system the history of the galaxy using compositional measurements. So that's kind of a largely, and he'll physics also goes over into astrophysics so to measurements that I did were at I learned how to build experiments. So I'm an expert mental physicist. I I built some things first thing ever built during my master's program. Still in my. Is still in in space there in our in NASA spoke to wind mission buried in nineteen Ninety-two. So it's it's up there. So so there's a whole bunch of things that I touched and affected in some cases. I in invented so macho farewells and he'll physics. It's wonderful thing. You had something to do a little bit with the messenger. Oh, yeah. One off the sensors on the messenger mission, I built together with our great team. I came up with the idea together with another mentor of mine, George Gluck Laron and perfected it with a team that Melissa lot better than I could have been by myself. And it was kind of I walk on kind of what we would call here in this office a high-risk instrument because they had very little a heritage just I said so we hadn't flown before. And I have to say that instrument in terms of just signs outcome perk per money. It is in every way speak perhaps more impactful than many of the instruments. And so, of course, it did the first measurements off the I nine excess fear it measured water. Brian's in mercury's and Meyer, man, it it. It looked that pick up is from the galactic intergalactic space and solar wind and so forth. What is the goal of the science mission directorate? So we really have two goals that we're doing here. So first of all right NASA where every everything then I'm gonna talk about goals. But how we do. It's we will lean right? We deserve. Only carry that NASA label if we are working in the spirit of the people who brought us here fifty years ago, which is we're trying to do new things we're trying to do hard things. So I would call us actually not to be the most important ball is not to be perfect every time. Our most important goal is to f- impacting touring since. And so let's talk about these calls the first one doing fundamental research. I don't know if the way I think about the world is you know, it's like a big building. And everyone's no mall a room in a room delight comes on. So we learn about for. Sample do earth cry sphere, right? The ice on her thrived. So and we have missions like ice sat to and you know, like automations that combined with things on the ground. And we learn about highs in a way we never learned before. Yes, it's the earth. We discover new things at earth much of the things that have remained to be discovered on earth are still out there. They're still dark rooms out the same history with the universe. We can look back in time. We we would like to turn on the light in this room. That's asked the first golics. He's of course, the way want to do with James Webb, right? Right. So basically in every case, it's really about totally finding out new things in large thing. If you want the space in which we think, and then they which we live in. So that's that's really it's fun restart. Even if never has startup came out of anyone of those would still be worth it. Because history has shown us that. The big transformations in technology to big transformations and thinking came from that kind of research fundamental research at its core. The second type of research, I will call this apply to research. So basically what it's designed to do is improving protect life on earth. So applied research may be measuring the wetter measuring long-term changes in our atmosphere. Other people call that climate science by because it's important not just because it's exciting to learn about our bonnet it relates to our livelihood. And so for me that second part is also as we're not the operational part. Remember, Noah USGS, author grade agencies with our international partners, do that operational work. The weather forecast we built spacecraft here, but they do the the forecasts. But but it's really those two things going on the one hand kind of fundamental research. Leaping in our. Her standing the other one obliged can application multi baited research. Right. So it's not just applied as an I'll do a forecast. It's like I wanted to understand the loss of nature. So we do a better job predicting, for example, wetter three days out now one fundamental research question is really at the heart of many of our missions. And that is a question that is we're learning at Tanah right now and asked to do with is there life out there. Right. It's a very it's fundamental research question. If there ever is one if we found life today, we would think differently about the world tomorrow. Absolutely. So so for us, you know, learning about that in in many domains, including planetary, but also astro-physics in many ways, even he'll fix how magnetic fields relate to protecting planet earth signs. You know, how do we model atmospheres? In other words, with with with other kind of environments that question as a question that keeps us up at night going to buy. Itself. So it's it's one at sop side of that fundamental research. But it's one of those questions I tried to pull out just because there's like three or four missions right now where the key motivation for us to do it is stat question, q tesla, but more I know this is sort of a pivotal time. You mentioned the James Webb tells you mentioned that our missions out there. What are the active missions? And the next two or three years that you just most excited about it has to be chains web on the one hand. Right. Because teams web is is this, you know, tremendously difficult birth like my father of two children state there. And I didn't do the hard work my wife that, but but the point s you know, not every birth to same same with developing missions. This one is just about as hard as we can make it right? But once does this up there when it is up there, it will do an amazing things and teaches about the beginning of the universe in a way beef never seen. We've never seen that part of the universe. Like we have. Some Fosse things the bariatric Hubble can do this is going to be entirely new. So that that's one of those. It's just a pivotal mission. But by the way, does signs we're gonna do. It's really different and the signs that was small debating development twenty years ago, right because all the exit planets just talked about and passing these planets out there every star has one on the average even more than one probably those exit planets, we didn't even know where they're certainly not at that level of abundance measure does at the level. We never thought for the second mission. I'm really excited about this March twenty twenty. Yes, the recent for that is because it's the beginning of around trip the first round trip to another planet. We've never gone to a it. Brought something back. Eventually, of course, what we want to do is bring people back Golan with people and bring people by. Well, we're settling with a few pounds off, you know, samples and so forth. No samples, of course, what motivates stare, of course. It's geology learning about. But it's also about life are there traces of extinct life in these samples. So we're landing in this environment. This river that that we hope that former member to of course, that'd be hope half just like on earth will be a site where those those kind of answers are addressed on earth. They would be, but we don't know would be there. The third mission in similar Rahm. Of course is Europe clipper ref is this crazy world out there like if you ever took like sign this all together something like thirty years ago. And so now point to everywhere where they could be like Ross may there's nobody would have point towards Europe our end, sell it, certainly not end solid us, right? My feeling ask that as we go. Learn how to go and deandre solar system again and kind of investigate conference a follow up of Cassini and others. The question about life. But also the question about these unique worlds are going to really open up entirely new investigations that'd be if not done. What are your thoughts on on the commercial croup haram? What are your vision for how humans are going to be a part of space exploration over the next few years? So it's really unique. Right that we can get Americans launch from the US to space with US providers. That's really unique thing after so and so many years after the shuttle retired we've used you know, worked with our collaborators and and Russia and so so commercial crew program. I think it's going to have very courageous Brogan that has been with us for, you know, several administrations, you know, like so many things NASA John half bipartisan support, and depending on how this goes we may have three options to go back to space right down to two commercial crew from Henderson and perhaps space launch system. Exactly. The NASA provided kind of heavy launch capability. So. So we go built those things, you know, the most important element is that it really that the sky becomes more open for Americans and our partners to go to space. I mean, very excited that we've been in space for eighteen years nonstop, right? There's many people alive, including my children now not left on this earth a single day where an American was not in space. And so we have to say that dude. That's the benefit of the space station. You know, going to say it's a miracle. Made reality can coming together as an international community and building that up. I think what's going to happen. As we go to the moon and beyond that international community will be partnered by commercial players and kind of new things well happen. And again courageous way is at the heart of the commercial crew program to really open up kind of the space for us the exploring space or humans deeper and deeper into the solar system Buffoni being. You know, mostly in lower Thornton. We it's time to take you out of their code deeper. How do you maintain the missions and the future of science with with the constantly changing budgets? How do you keep the long term focus on science? So one of the key elements of that strategy is to have a constancy of purpose, by the way, the way we do that is to recognize that whoever sits this office here. And as our quarters is not the person who sets purpose relative to what's the key highest priority signs mission. That's the National Academy of sciences and mention many many years ago on and off the economies are helping us kind of setting priority. And of course, in Hilo physics domains where I'm pretty good at setting priorities. Just because I've worked there for twenty years or more while in astro-physics, I'm not the best specialist on earth. And and frankly, it's kind of figure it's hard to figure out what the best specialist who it is right on doctor and the answer is you need to bring a team together and kind of bra. Prioritize based on Brennan suppose that are much higher. So constancy of purpose. One of them that brings us four so administrations change, we still do we do the right thing continuance. So we don't waste taxpayers money because we cranked back and forth. Just keep calling because we have agreed to get her in bipartisan way that that's what needs to be done. I think the other thing I just said is the bipartisan support, I really believe that's crucial that we learn how to communicate signs not just for one, stay colder. Yes. There's smart people who are really excited about signs. I'm just as excited to talk to elementary school students to middle school students who people who are doing apprenticeships. So you know and community colleges. They're also boaters and they also live in the same beautiful nature. We are in. And if we cannot talk to them about what we're doing. Shame on us. Obviously NASA has international part. Mean we've partnered with Russia. You recently went to United Arab Emirates. I was I just wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about how what is working with other WorldSpace authorities in space agencies. So the one thing that is really critical to think about is that when it comes to an ASA leadership and collaboration on all deposing mallows kind of weird a leaders. There's no other program not really where we are. But see sustained leadership doesn't require just that we're a leader. Now, it's also that removing faster. And so for me like I mean, I learned that from Larry page to visit says like who cares about where we are. Right now. The question is army moving fast. I love that. And so can his way of saying it's not the quantity that matters. It's the first evidence of that quantity ranked that's the slope. And so so for me that collaboration with international partners enables us to do. Things that otherwise we could not do and do things better because some things for example, earth observations, we should contribute. It's not the goal. That'd be keep doing what we did twenty thirty years ago. The goal is that we again, we're NASA be leap, but some empower some otters going to help contribute. And as we put the date out there out there. Whether it's commercial or international partners today to out, and we can built the next measurement and so forth. And so for for me international collaborations from the beginning of now is is being really important part of the the definition of what we're about. If you look at the space act, it's right there, and I think this entire team beliefs, and that that's wonderful Thomas. I can't think enough for taking time out of your visit to join us. Thank you so much. Thanks to you. And for all your work, you're doing all, my pleasure. Online coffee break. While I really enjoyed my conversation with Thomas day hope you to if you like to find out more about the NASA science mission directorate, visit their website, science dot NASA dot gov. I want to thank Thomas for joining me today at led to thank you for joining us as well if you'd like to comment until he's topic just go to our website online. Copper break dot com or we'd love it if you'd falls on Facebook or Instagram at online coffee break, we also love it. If you sure this episode with a friend or rate us on your favorite podcasts application. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule. Join us today. We'll see next time. God bless.
Episode 16: An ICONic Launch
"Most of the time we launched rockets with the pointy end up sometimes we strapped rockets to the belly up commercial airliners and drop them over the ocean next the rocket ranch engineer constraints launch three and welcome to Spain Sta for Commercial Air Travel we purchase that aircraft back in the in the early nineties we had to beef up the structure of the airplane to carry one of the platforms in my portfolio today I have the small launch vehicle area at Northrop Pegasus is a world class launch vehicle drop well airdrop can be done in different ways we do it in a way that really boost the performance of the system you take you take a a launch vehicle the Pegasus xl launch vehicle which weighs about fifty seven thousand pounds so a standard commercial airliner could not handle that kind of load at so we beefed up the structure of the airdrop fact because that is I think that's what makes us the most unique so help give people that are listening to this kind of a visual for what does that mean when we say aalto eleven to be able to carry the load as well as to drop the load so there's a pretty sophisticated hook release mechanism underneath the aircraft that interfaces with the Pegasus rocket added a very unique launch vehicle in the fact that it that it is air launched and it was the first airline space launch vehicle ever constructed with the First Flight Nineteen Ninety I want to kind of back up a little bit and learn more about you and kind of your history you've been with Pegasus for quite some time now I've been with orbital sciences now north eleven up to a launch condition which actually adds a lot of energy to the equation and and and and that energy that the ultimate eleven delivers This'll be our forty fourth Pegasus mission awesome congrats so are you an engineer by trade by an aerospace engineer have you had any personal favorite missions or favorite like moments which is a combination of repulsive stages with a payload on the front underneath a payload fairing and our case we take that on the ultimate we'll get back to the science initiative a few minutes but first we wanted to take some time to talk about a one of a kind launch capability this launch is managed by Nazis in Stargazer is that correct that's right stargazer so what does the L. Ten eleven just for people who have never heard of it before so the ultimate limited tri-star is used to be a commercial airline wide-body airline that was used tation systems all right now in the booth with Phil Joyce Phil thank you so much for joining me today it's great to be here and we're northern town we're glad to see his pegasus ready to fly We have launched panel operators that fly out to the launch point and monitor the systems on the rocket real time as well as the payload systems Ramani is an altitude of something like forty thousand feet and a drop speed of something like Mark Point Eight is actually our first stage and a doubles the payload performance breath of the rocket compared to if you want it on the ground so l. ten eleven for our younger viewers who may not be familiar I think you guys have titled The Pegasus Missions are no different and certainly they they they feel as intense as any of them cool and so i WanNa make sure that we don't Overlook Launch Services Program and they selected the Pegasus xl rocket manufactured by Northrop. Here's Phil Joyce Vice President Space Launch Programs North Ed gives us additional performance capability to to launch this amazing machine can you launch anywhere in the world if you're an airliner I would think that anywhere you can leave cool so you talked about beefing up airplane so when I walk on board this airplane historically used for commercial airline purposes this launch attempt to come back here to the Cape where logistically it's it's much more straightforward operation I think about launching rocket and just the orbital you've run away from you could that's right and that's the that's the true advantage of an air launch system it gives you that global flexibility in fact we've launched Pegasus from the Canary Islands we've launched it career well you know it's it's hard to it's hard to top fly into the sun so so when we did the upper stage departure solar probe and delivered that spacecraft just grummin that since one thousand nine hundred ninety two so twenty seven year veteran of the launch vehicle business with a career that spans a lot of different launch platforms Pegasus the course has been heavily modified to include are launched panels for controlling the rocket systems all the systems on board the Pegasus on the Bullseye cool that was that was a wonderful experience but everyone is the same it's all adrenaline it's all that that nerves just before ignition ability on launch location we talked about a minute ago okay and and I'm assuming that this isn't the kind of thing where we have a rocket strapped to an airplane and to ensure that we've got to save condition in order to to launch when we actually launched the the the Pegasus it's released from the Altan eleven there's a there's a mechanics of blasting a giant machine into outer space and getting it into an orbit you want that's difficult but now you're adding eleven and the crew to ensure safety which is again our highest priority cool so does this mean that do you have a traditional launch count with both approaches to to space launch you have additional systems though when you when you involve an airplane so not only does the rocket and all it systems have to perform flawlessly from the QUADRILLE and a toll out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean as well as more conventional March sites Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force station so heard from councils up in that first class area the entire back end of the of the aircraft has been cleaned out of all all the seats and all the overhead bin Pulse it's monitoring and and that can be turned off by people on the ground by operators on the ground but everything is automated unless it's interrupted by operator in the case of Pegasus he's but once it does release it actually posts away from the aircraft for five seconds the aircraft banks at that point because it's just released fifty seven thousand pounds the pilot has control of that event and none of the systems to start the the actual launch sequence initiate until the rockets the first privately developed launch vehicle Back in the day Oh with the first flight in nineteen ninety come and also of course as you know early this one which is more hazardous than usual the Pegasus Systems and the systems on board the ultimate eleven our design monitor all the safety systems on board the rocket is released from the airplane and for launching the rocket again thinking about an ground-launched you're launching from a very specific point on earth sure and it turns out that we really didn't need that performance that the icon spacecraft came in significantly under budget on mass okay and so that that enabled us for that if we're going a little bit too fast or a little bit too slow or ten miles shorter than what are nominal is the onboard navigation systems on the Pegasus will correct for that and get us into align the aircraft with a dropbox that's ten miles by forty miles long and they they need to be inside of that box for the actual drop in launch a Pegasus all the all the mission planning all the rain safety is designed around dropping the rocket inside of that box so as long a truly is an an an independent launch platform that gives us lots of flexibility and really enables Pegasus to deliver payloads any inclusion call so for this law else will go to internal power and then go within two minutes or so they'll go into an auto sequence where the computer on board that rocket is actually controlling the ignition there's a button up in the cockpit that the pilot actually presses to to release Pegasus it's a manual operation and pilots and comfortable with where things are he won't really and fly out and then apply what we call a race track which positions the aircraft at the right time at the right place for the drop they will they will am I going to see a first class coach the whole kit and caboodle inside yeah well we don't make our team sitting in the back we don't make coach they're sitting in what used to be the first class section formats boost by launching near the equator rocket equation helps helps you understand that close quarter the more the earth's rotation helps you all of that with the complexity of now we're flying through the air to do that is it is it harder to like to launch from a plane and get things where you want them in space well there's challenges with Launch conductor are there in building in launch control cool so I would be remiss if I didn't ask you because icon has been sure yeah the the you know any space launch requires flawless operation of a highly complex machine made thousands of parts software and launch operations a precise orbit cool that's great so you personally where are you going to be for lunch you have a role are you on console somewhere I'll be in the mission launch if I remember correctly we were actually supposed to launch from the quadrant islands is that correct yeah that's right the original launch attempt was was designed to go to quantum and that was because we get that we're their past those challenges already to go during the previous launch attempt engineers observed some anomalous readings on a position feedback in order to get to a launch attempt to have successful launch but that aircraft has to perform flawlessly all the systems on board so does add some complexity to it but the payoff is that thirty minutes from launch and we scrubbed out and we're back here again almost about a year later so can you tell us what happened what's happened over the course of the past year sensor on the Pegasus Rudder Fin actuator the rudder is really what steers the rocket during the first stage of flight is like an airplane so it's got a rudder just like an airplane does I don't know how to describe it we've had some delays this time almost almost exactly a year ago it seems like we were up the planning taken off down then if ultimately the pilot is the pilot held to like when we get to zero like you gotTa push the button it's he's flexible so we we don't have auto sequence of for example like most ground launch vehicle that must execute perfectly every launch every time the Pegasus icon mission has challenged the north or chrome NASA team repeatedly but were excited to say ends and we we like to refer to it as the bowling alley back there it's just do you bowl back there but it's it's empty the rocket just ignites seems like that would be dangerous for the people on board so what's that process what's the actual launch sequence look like they're seven souls onboard this in great confidence on the ferry flight from California to here where we didn't see a repeat of any of the issues we had in the previous launch attempts so I'm assuming that this is the mission every mission is this way but I'm sure in particular your team is excited for this launch anxious for it so what's that GonNa feel like to see this thing he's you're in that box the rocket can kind of adjust so to speak in flight to get warnings to be that's right the the rocket will guide itself into orbit based on where it's released and an extra boost adrenaline for this mission compared to others although they're all they're all very exciting yeah so you we've flew to vary the rocket from Vandenberg Air Force Base here to here to Florida working through those challenges as a team was the only possible due to the outstanding through replacing hardware with modified designs performing qualification testing and conducting three captive carry flights validate the hard hardware upgrades including the one that understanding of those readings we stood up a joint investigation team with our NASA partners to determine cause and corrective actions those corrective actions included removing director center. I I kind of suit though so so so the real the real The real Rocket operators the Pegasus launch team. The Tim Eleven pilots will fly take off from the kids skit scripts excuse me the pilots will take off here from the Skid Strip at at Cape Canaveral vity so so it's it is very rewarding to get past it to really understand what's happening to make those corrective actions and in fact we we grew we the decade partnership we've had with NASA Pegasus and we are proud and honored to be here to launch yeah obviously northern Romans a big part of our launcher the program obviously a big mission with icon so glad to have a year it sounds like probably a tough year but probably feeling really rewarding now as we're getting ready and it was that position feedback that looked to us and caused us to scrub that previous launch attempt because mission success is our only focused and because we did not have a clearer the the the the Bishop Director for grandma is Brian Baldwin who is our program manager for Pegasus and the rest of the launch team including the as we according to us we're in the throes of the launch campaign for the honest feerick connection explorer or icon other for you know since nineteen ninety and a lot of the people that are working Pegasus worked on on the program for over a decade so it's really rewarding to see them do you have like one single spot in the air that you have to hit that that moment in like everything it'd be perfect at that moment in space to to launch is what's called we call the launch box and so the the the blast right and no pun intended but this one in particular because of all the effort that we've had to put in to get this right on both sides you know on the on the clock to to get to the bottom of this and what was really happening the northrop north of team working with NASA hand in hand herself as being a suit as leader of this group does that hold specific meaning for you and kind of like your history with the rocket yeah the Pegasus team is a family entre haloed side the NASA side North inside the teams the teams that that solve this problem with the teams that are going to be launching the rocket and I I can't imagine that they don't have think we did this the right way we're going to get there I think everybody involved would say it was a very intense year okay very time is of the essence in these sorts of things and we worked almost a and B. Orbit correctly like how the team responded well any any any launches is is all adrenaline and and you know one of the reasons we're in this business it's it's it's it's that's our priority our priority Northrop Grumman is all about those seven people right in and the main thing is safety and safety is always first in our minds for any operation imagine it's going to get to quickly and it's that separation and that five seconds that puts the rock at a safe distance away from the heard that with the Pegasus very flight across the country with a commercial airliner if you're flying yourself from La to Orlando you just kind of take a straight path have the opportunity to get pay off for their efforts we know it's going to be a successful mission call so I WANNA go back real fast there was a comment you made the and then icon joining our fleet to really look at that sort of final piece what happens when all of that solar energy gets into our atmosphere and dumps that gave us the issues the entire flight from Vandenberg to Florida and then when we get here we actually will practice before we land great to hear thank you very much I wrangled up another ranch hand to help track down some more information on this long-awaited mission here's my colleague Madison Tuttle with Dr Our launch attempt right we've got the systems powered up we're not arming anything or doing anything we'll do for national launch but we will monitor all the systems and in fact we were monitoring the system good luck to you and the entire team obviously we're all going to be anxious to see this one fly as with any launched but certainly like overcoming challenges what makes Nassar Northrop Grumman Greek I'm working with a team of scientists and to define the science goals and which we have well defined at this point and agree really good dry run not just for the Pegasus team for but but for the Rangers well to make sure everything is set properly and we're ready for launch day cool Phil appreciate you hero fleet on so we are very excited we have obviously missions looking at the sun tracking all of those events all the way through the space between the sun enough FAA because we're we are carrying fifty thousand pounds of rocket fuel aren't so we do avoid populated areas along the flight path but but it's Nikki Fox the helium physics division director in the Nasa Science Mission Directorate and Principal Investigator for con from the space scientists laboratory at UC Berkeley Fox who is the director of the he'll physics division from NASA headquarters. Welcome to you both if we WANNA start out you could just give me kind of a breeze launching this week Dr Nikki Fox so in in my role I am responsible for all of the space craft and all of the assets that make up the skid strip will actually practice not launch attempt but basically going out to the racetrack turning transmitters on having the range capture that data and it's a lot of energy there and what is happening in that sort of very dynamic region where icon is going to be flying through and it's a wonderful partnership we have a image of that a high level overview of your role in the icon mission Tom if you start being the principal investigator I'm responsible for the scientific output of the mission us and it'll research lab as well as Berkeley Imagers we selected by NASA to do this mission two thousand thirteen and it's been a long road but we're finally glad to be whipping through making the institute telling US exactly what is happening kind of out in that environment so we can't wait perfect and how big is your with the spacecraft to create the Observatory we also worked with Utah State integrate the all the instruments on the payload and we have instruments from Dallas he university had died so of course we've worked with a number of partners on the including north of Chrome for the spacecraft and to integrate the payload scientific payload to the UH with NASA on what those were and then you know I- Berkeley was responsible for putting together the Observatory Dr Thomas Immel are right I am here in the booth with icon principal investigator Dr Thomas Emel and we also have Dr Nikki briefly kind of what icon is going to be doing could you explain to our listeners a little bit I'm just in general what is the ionosphere I nice where that plasma goes and how it behaves after that is subject to a number of different inputs of course amen total do you know how many people are involved with this mission between northrop and the launch vehicle northrop so north also has launch vehicle as well as the there's so many people here for the rocket so it's hundreds of people we always say it's takes an entire family to put a spacecraft into orbit you you just don't realize spacecraft so there will be probably sixteen northrop engineers on console at Berkeley when we launch where the mission operations are when the how many people and they all have a very very vital role and it's you know one of the beautiful things about doing these is getting work in these incredible teams right and you touched not all that different than people that are riding they're about a five hour five and a half hour flight and we take advantage of this flight to monitor the systems on board so it's actually a dry run for can the INS fears the region around earth that's charged or it's been ionized by solar radiation that's how it gets I and Geico gold that was launched last year and that is taking full hemispheric images from it's it's sorta vantage point at geosynchronous orbit and then I comb we the the Aurora is another place where there's a lot of plasmas created that's by charged particles that initially come from the solar wind but energize and the magnetosphere and then is comes comes back up and that can come up and large-scale waves and you know there's a number of a family of waves and tides that can channeled into the high latitude regions of the earth that can modify the atmosphere pretty drastically icons focuses on the forcing the comes from below the the most of the solar energy that comes from the sun ends up on earth ends up right here on the surface and it turns out that a lot of energy and momentum around us the hurricanes and tornadoes that's Kinda reaching up and then space weather from the sun is coming down and it's Kinda handshake between those two different weather systems got making being able to make better predictions of its conditions Sitcom we could describe the ionosphere maybe it's like a transition region it's where that all of the weather that we worry about alert shirt so it's about five meters per second which I think I can do five meters per second I haven't tried but so that's an important measurement signals just just fine but when we have disturbances maybe like bubbles really bubbles of plasma that form in this region and they can adversely affect it's aperture and it causes to interfere with itself so you can very very carefully determined the wavelength of the light we can determine it so well that we can does have pretty big implications for our life here on earth I don't know if you guys want to elaborate a little bit kind of the ports of this mission just for the everyday person on earth it's so dynamic and there's so much energy that there has to be something else it can't just be the sun and so now we think it's actually energy that comes out from from our weather go sort of a surprising sort of outcome from previous NASA that's true we thought about a decade ago we thought everything was driven by the sun and now we're finding out that and where they meet that's the atmosphere so I kind of understand that like radio communications. GPS signals also kind of float through the ionosphere obviously the termine if the emission the place the light coming from is moving towards your way for me to simply through Doppler shift of the of the light and so it's like uh-huh that is that that transition region that's the that's right that's it's space weather means Earth's weather in the INS fear and we wouldn't have said that if decade one in their role within the mission while start with the wind imager so it's an interferometer and what that means is it causes it takes light into when you can retrieve that information in the daytime also there's ultraviolet emissions where we have ultraviolet to ultraviolet cameras that pull out the you can retrieve agenda and so we really need to study it and understand it so icon has I think four instruments onboard the spacecraft. I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about kind of the telling is like looking at someone across the room or if and look at it the color of the shirt I can't tell you if they're running towards you or away from you by the change in the the solar arrays making sure everything is going to be perfect when we actually come to launch and there's only one icon it's not like we're GONNA launch it and if something goes wrong with just going to build another one there's wow so the fear is really does that does often the radio signals bounce off the ionised fear or they travel through it when the ionosphere is nice and quiet then we get the only one icon and so we wanna make sure everything is one hundred percent perfect before we launch our precious baby into space because you know it's it's just we just have to wait a little bit longer than like Nikki said we said you know Nikki would we have to do is we have to open up the whole spacecraft again we have to test the spacecraft and all the instruments one more time and composition of the upper atmosphere how it changes and also the Irish feerick density profile we want to know where that Pecan the answer is at an altitude and how ability to have these communications and that has effects of AC- military for FAA We want to be making sure astronauts as safe they're all in this re- like a long time but it takes a lot of time to put these really really sophisticated missions up in space and you have to have everything right and so you can't go up and and fix it the the plasma is you know is generated you're on in a magnetic field so what's affecting that plasmas sort of everything along that magnetic field in fact we've waited a long time we've got this incredible science we want to do this is the mission to go answer it I'm we're certainly not going to take any chances with it so everything good in life is worth waiting for them so we get a temperature measurement from that as well that looks right down all those that wind and temperature were measuring right down at the boundary of space so we say sixty miles one hundred kilometer this you know nobody ever gave up the icon team is still the still waiting for this mission we've even used the time to do some extra testing on the space craft a walking does she know everything is going to be perfect and you know so there was some anomalous behavior we tried to launch last year and I have to give credit to the amazing team that really stood into out why didn't they were anxious really excited you know as as Tom noted we really started working on this mission in two thousand and thirteen and that probably sounds densities we also carry in situ measurements so what's remarkable is that in our orbit that we've selected we can measure the motion of the plasma from this mission really you know we've really formed the right questions I think to be asking over the last decade an iconic certainly the right mission to be answering them carry that energy back up into space and it turns out that we we think that there's a that that sort that may be the key to understanding why the fear is so variable and the key if you look down the field line you'll you end up at a place where we're making the wind and temperature measurements as well so as there's a sort of key observational characteristic to the mission plot we met comes through so everything's exciting for me great I think that is all the questions I have is there anything you guys want to add I just think tom sounds like an expectant thank you thank you go packers go icon go icon hopefully you had a chance to tune into the broadcast micon including mission updates visit NASA dot gov slash icon to learn more about L. S. P. R. Commercial Launch Providers Science Missions and robotic explorers visit NASA dot com ranch special thanks to our guests Phil Joyce Dr Nikki Fox and Dr Thomas Himmel and another big thanks to my co host Madison Tuttle too so you know sh everyone understood why you have to do that it's been it's been some time as we had to but we're talking to the engineers are very happy to have gone through that so opened on for so I kind of been a mission six years in the making what challenges or frustrations have y'all face along the way you don't launch him well it but the the moon reflects the solar spectrum very specifically in a way that we understand so use it as a calibration source stellar there's is that at edge of space and we retrieve the winds and temperatures from there continuously day and night and at higher altitudes in the day when there's a lot of air of slash launch services and to learn more about everything going on at the Kennedy Space Center go to NASA Dot Gov Slash Kennedy Checkout Nastase other podcasts to learn more about what thanks to Mary McLaughlin and NFL remember on the rocket ranch even the sky isn't the women fan but I believe I've heard that that they'll ten eleven in the Pegasus take very different pass to get here is that correct yes we have to file a special flight flight plan with the you have to have everything right and so it does take a while it takes a village it takes a lot of teamwork to put it together and so I think we're all incredibly excited about seeing the science that is gonNA come the interferometer for the for the winds and I just want to know exactly where I'm going to be I know we're going to be going to be standing over an engineer shoulder looking at the happening at all are senators
08-Milky Way Marvels: TRAPPIST-1
"Hey before we continue. I got of course. Have you ever thought about doing a podcast herself. But maybe you have no idea where to start. Well if you haven't heard about anchor. Hey it's the easiest way to make podcast it's free. They've got creation tools. That lets you record. And edit your podcast right from your phone or your computer. I mean to can't get much easier than that and if you'd like money you can make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. If you're into that thing but the bottom line is it's everything you need to make a podcast all in one place. Download the free anchor app or go to anchor dot. Fm to get started mercury. Venus earth mars the moon the sign all the other things we know about our solar system that we were taught since we were kids. But now i'm hyped about trappist one. Have you ever heard of it. Everyone ask that question in prepping for this episode. Gave me two answers and let me say that one of those answers was not yes to the question of have you heard of trepp is one. I got either no or tr- tr- trap is one but it's okay. I'm gonna let you kill my buzz because hey you know what you don't know until you know it and then you know it so mi hopefully get you hyped about trump easiest one podcast presented by sonic embassy episodes zero eight milky way way. More one well come to milky way. Marbles it's an ongoing series in which we explore various wonders of galaxy. Like many of you. I don't really pay attention to space. Discoveries i mean i do but i don't like i love astronomy but hard core follow it but sometimes a new discovery hits my eyes or ears and it really catches my attention and that's what happened with trappist one one of the things that really gets me. Hyped is when new discoveries are announced but not just any discovery mainly the announcements of new planets especially exo planets a what planet x planet like hug kiss planet. I wish earth needs to be planet of exo exo right about now but no in this case. It's an e x planet. An exo planet is an extra solar planet a planet orbiting different star than our sun. Pretty much a planet outside of our solar system at this moment there are more than four thousand known plant and there are thousands of others that are unconfirmed and require further study. Meaning we think they exist. We just need to stare at a more scientists. Say that in the milky way galaxy there are in fact more planets than there are stars. Think crazy but i guess when you think about it. Our solar system has one star the sun but as nine planets. So i guess i can see how that could be the case of like in my house. I'm outnumbered four to one. Except in this case they are the stars. And i'm just a guest joint. So how are exoplanets discovered. I mean. I can't just get some binoculars. Go outside and be very very very still very very patient and not blink and finally kicked sight of a planet dot around a dot of light in the night sky. Here's dr pamela gay. Senior scientists at the planetary science institute and the podcast astronomy cast along with freezer. Cain explaining a few methods on how exoplanets are found so the ways that we're finding planets day range from purposeful to There's a planet. And i just love the fact that we're now accidentally finding planets so just like when we had this first conversation you can find planets by looking at bright stars using high resolution spectra graphs and looking for the little tiny motions are indicative of a planet. Slowly moving its star around the mutual center of mass and the amount of motion that we're seeing. You could run faster than these starts are moving. It's not a huge movement and this is where you need bright stars we can really spread their light out. We can make really accurate measurements of what's called the radial velocities. The rate at which the star is moving towards us away from us now in order to find planets using radios lusty method. You need to have a planet that is passing between us and the star it can be a little higher a little lower than the star so this method allows you to find stars that are transiting and that would transit. If only they were closer to their star or they're angled was tilted just a little bit more. It does not let us find the planets that are going around the star in the plane in the sky relative to us. Radio velocity method like a galactic tug of war between the star and the planet so scientists look for the wobble so to speak the the initial way that people found planets was. They looked for the doppler shifting of regular everyday stars by hot jupiters and because the gravitational pull of a planet will indeed yank around its sun. We measured those motions the same way a police officer measures. If you're speeding or not by seeing how light coming from the star. It's shifted bread words or blue words in its motion. So no doubt. This way is not a flawless way to find planets with the radio. Of lusty method. We are limited to finding planets that are moving towards us and away from us in the plane of the sky. This means ideally. We can only find that first of all are big enough to yank their star around and second of all are close enough that they're big enough has an effect and you have to have the geometry where they're moving in and out words and away from us in the plane the sky okay. That's all annoying limits. What we're able to seek there is another method used today that i find really intriguing and one used in the discoveries of traps so we have the radio of last year that uses ground based telescopes large telescopes large specter's graphs and can only really work with bright stars. The other methods that we have is looking for transiting planets there's planet passes in front of its star causing the stars light to dim slightly. This is something that you can do with a backyard telescope if your backyard happens to have really good sky conditions. What you need is the perfect sky. That isn't fluctuating twinkling all over the place and really really really. Well calibrated equipment. You don't need big equipment. You need well calibrated equipment. So you can look for that fraction of a percent dip in the stars light and the cell so cool. I really need to get me a really really good telescope. This was initially done mostly with stars that we knew planets going around and around them and after people with like four inch driveway. Telescopes started being able to replicate planet results while we launched this little spacecraft that just might have been called kepler and we started pulling and planets thousand at a time potential planets thousand at a time and since then we've been going through confirming them using doppler technique and sometimes even well lately we've found a tiny tiny handful of planets by looking directly for them we're looking for tiny tiny tiny dips sometimes just a tenth of a percent of light in the light from a star and this is something we've only been able to do for the past couple of decades so i'm wondering what some limitations of this method are now with the transit method it gets even wirth's with the transit method we have to have the planet precisely aligned so that it passes in front of its star a clip sing some of the light from the star relative to arts which means the alignment has to be not just in and out of the sky but persuasively so that it's not tilted upper down too much even in our own solar system we don't see venus and mercury regularly eclipsing are son if we only catch venus just every few generations having a pair of transits. How much rarer is going to be to see alien planets. Transferring their starts. Well it turns out. it's pretty common. But it still limits what we can say. If you go to the planet's dot nasa dot gov and look up five ways to find a planet you can see how many exoplanets have been discovered using each of these methods so using methods like this have led to my new fascination with trappist one what is trappist one trappist one is the name of star an ultra. Cool red dwarf star. That's maybe a little bit bigger than jupiter. It's about forty light years from earth or two hundred thirty five trillion miles or twelve par six the like button if you first heard about a parcel from star wars movie just mia liars if you find that constellation aquarius trappist one will be in there but don't expect to walk outside tonight and see it well at least not with your naked eyes but more on that in a bit it was discovered in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine by university of delaware physics and astronomy professor john galaxies and colleagues it was originally called two mass j. Two three zero six two nine. Two eight dash zero five zero two two eight five. I don't know about you. But i like the name. Trap is one better but more on the newer name in a bid to so trap is one is star and just like human beings. There is a lot of diversity. Among the stars there are many different types of stars we often use our son as the measure of reference for other types often they are classified into seven types based on their temperature so there are neutron stars whole sars giant stars red giants blue giant. Supergiant there are dwarf stars. White dwarfs brown dwarfs yellow dwarfs like our sun and there are red dwarves like trappist one red dwarfs are the most common type of star found in our galaxy in fact about three fourths of the stars are estimated to be read doors so what is a red dwarf well again. let's use the star. We know the most about as i reference point the sun although considered a dwarf stars will is like a giant compared to a red dwarf. A red dwarf is a tiny star. We're talking these. Things are on average at least forty percent the size of the sun if not smaller they do come a bit larger and in fact. There's a lot of argument over exactly where you draw the line at the top of what the size red dwarf is at the bottom. These are the smallest objects capable of prolonged hydrogen burning via the proton proton chain deep in their core and like the sun yellow dwarfs or hotter. You've off more energy and a yellowish or whitish color. All making it more bright easier to see a red dwarf is relatively cool which means they give off less energy and red colour all making it more less bright. It all comes down to. What kind of star is it. I don't know about you. But i have incandescent lights in my house in random places still because i am a bad human being and i know that. The hundred watt light bulbs. If i touch those suckers too soon totally gonna burn myself whereas the lower wattage bulbs the not turned up all the way on the fader bulbs if i want to replace his with fluorescent bulb. Turn them off and grab them in. Its good stars. It's the same way if they're big. They're hot. They're gonna get rid of all of water and burn that planet. You have a smaller redder. Cooler star and water can be liquid but not boil away. These stars also go through a different kind of launching into existence whereas a red dwarf. It's going to be an angry little x-ray jettison object for awhile but it's not going to go through that prolonged period of being super hot. So that's why you can't see trappist one or probably any red dwarf star in the night sky without a really powerful telescopes which is really unfortunate. I would. I would really love to go. Outside and stare at trap is one and daydream or dream about what's there so what is there. And why am i so excited about it. Well in two thousand sixteen. A team of astronomers at the university of leauge in belgium had been observing the star two mass j two three zero six two nine. Two eight dash zero five zero two two eight five now even though they were in belgium. They were using robotic telescope in lucia chile called transiting planets and plan testimonials small telescope south or trappist self. It's a belgian telescope. They discovered two planets orbiting two mass j. Two three zero six two nine two eight zero five zero two two eight. Five discovery is huge. Not only are they. The first planet ever discovered around such a tiny indian star but also the art earth-like meaning both are similar in size to earn our rock. Ball's not gas balls and incredibly similar in temperature to earth this launches in intensive followup and nonstop observation so this star two mass j two three zero six two nine two eight dash zero five zero two two eight five is now a star system or planetary system and is renamed trappist one. Thank you and the name. Trappist is not just named for that telescope. Missile valley of belgians are den mountain range almost nine hundred yield known as orval abbey trappist. Monks have been brewing beer here. Since the twelfth century now this world famous trappist monastic. Beer has inspired the name of one of the most extraordinary astronomical fines ever trappist is the nickname of a system of seven earth sized planets orbiting dwarf star. Forty light years away. Air mclaughlin cnn. The edge belgium clever beer goes with everything. I wonder which came first the name idea or the idea for the acronym. And it's like here's what we want the acronym to be now. Let's come up with clever name for each letter so it makes sense. Perhaps the beer but as you heard in that clip in two thousand seventeen. They discovered five. More planets. orbiting trap is one for a grand total of seven. Here is thomas zurbuchen of the nasa science mission directorate in february of two thousand seventeen. I'm excited to announce today that dr ba cal. John and his team have used our spitzer space telescope to determine that are actually seven earth sized planets orbiting the nearby trappist one-star about forty light years. Away what's more is that. Three of these planets are in the habitable zone where likud water can pool on the surface in fact with the right atmosphere it conditions that could be water on any of these planets so for the first time we found many terrestrial planets around a single star. And that's the first being able to measure. In addition to that both the mass service and the radio of these habitable song type. Earth science bonnets. These planets are among the best in of all the planets reno to follow up to see for example with james webb space telescope. That original launch last year that atmospheres and also to locate biosignatures. If there are any discovery gives us a hint that finding second earth is not just a matter of if but when these new five planets discovered just like the first two are all earthlink and three of them are in the habitable zone in other words like mother earth. They are at a distance from their son in which liquid water could exist. The discovery sets a new record for greatest number of habitable zone. Planets found around a single star outside our solar system. How did they figure out that these planets are like this. What gets me is how figuring this out. We can't exactly directly image the surface of these worlds yet. Because we haven't spent the money to build those telescopes yet. I'm really hoping we'll get there but right now what ends up happening is we have. These worlds are getting discovered by kepler. And there's a whole bunch of them. Kepler sixty two e is one of the ones that the most attention. But there's a whole bunch of these different worlds and we can observe them translating in front of their stars so we know how quickly they're moving their orbit. We are able to see how long it takes them to damn and so you have your object and as it passes in front of the star it takes time for it to go from completely beside the star to completely in front of the star and that amount of time it takes to move also gives us the whip the planet so with these transit systems. We have the ability to physically measure the size of the planet. If it's the right kind of debt once we know how big the world is. We know how it's orbiting we can start making assumptions about what it's masses and then the motley our free to model and they plug into their computers while you through these things any through these things in assuming okay. If the star has this composition the solar nebula would have had this composition and in the models it works out what elements would have gotten blasted to the outer solar system during planetary formation. What elements would have been left behind. What should this world who've been made of and it appears that to get the sizes. Were seeing you need a world covered in water. So let's paint the picture of what. The trump is one system. Looks like and of course lets us what we know best which is our own solar system to make it make sense you know how our son is really huge like compared to earth they say a million plus urns could fit inside and you know how jupiter is really huge to our other planets and they estimate that just a thousand jupiter's can fit inside the sun and thirteen hundred plus earth's could fit inside jupiter now the star trap is one is about the size of jupiter. Maybe a bit bigger. So hopefully that gives you a mental picture of the sizes. Okay now let's talk orbits and proximity if you picture drawing a line representing each planets orbit around the sun and it would make a circle around the sun starting with mercury then you go out a little bit further and you trace the path of venus around the sun. Go out a bit. Further trees earth's path with the line a bit further for mars go away jupiter etc. Then if you look at it from above all the orbits would look like the rings of tree or the ripples when you drop a pebble into a pond. I think it's safe to say that we consider mercury to be pretty darn close to the sun but check this l. All seven of travis ones known planets are closer to their son than mercury is two hours. Isn't that nuts. When you think about it. All seven planets orbit lines could fit inside. mercury's orbit mind the planet's our system are in like a rural countryside. Nice peaceful elegant. We'll get around the sun when we get there and intrepid one they're pushed up and huddled together like a downtown rush hour. Use me trying to get around with inside to get around the the sun. It's even been like in more to how. Jupiter systems moons orbit so close. If you wear on the surface of one of these planets would have a wonderful view on the other planets sees them like we see davino so mouse like dot so flight but you would see them really us. We see the moon. You would see awards with which are very weak. You could see the strictures on his. Walt would be as large as a moon an even larger for some of them so it would be a wonderful view on these planets. Eleby so cool. Just like in sci-fi art imitating life imitating art in a moment what we know so far about the travis one planets and what's the future of study for this interesting star system long confidence dodger lovers from the award winning producers at sonic embassy comes on your podcast mini series that takes a fund entertainment work on various nouns and popular culture. Pop culture icons 'cause everyone hates to. What was it about spongebob that you liked what made me. Viking was just the type of love hate relationship with that man coach icons. We're taking give back. Podcast presented by sonic embassy now streaming everywhere. You listen milky way mama's so what do we know about trap is one. What are some of the details of the planet's. It's too early for names just yet. So all the planets are labeled traps one. B c d e f g and h in order of increasing distance from their parents star so like mercury the first rock from its son would be trappist one be so again with all that nonstop observation. What do we know. Here's mikhail john. One of the belgian astronomers who. I made this discovery at that. Nasa press conference in february two thousand seventeen. Well we are missouri with spitzer very very precisely they sizes and firm all we have thanks to spitzer to preliminary measurements of the masses for six of them and for one of them. Our missouri is precise enough to strongly suggest a water rich composition which is very exciting because this is one of the plant the zone. Football is planet Orbiting so closely started immersed be always out probably tidally locked which means they always face to start with the same site lag the moon with a paramount decide and permanent nine side. Trump is one planet. Could be just like this. So ultra cool dwarf Are known to be very active when they are young. This is the main concern about these potential debatable. Planets at the because it could have been Atmosphere being eroded strongly by star when it was young. Now it's quite it's Quite old wives so it's not very active but maybe Wanted twelve young. It was conditions where quite different so it will be by observations that we will really figure out surprised of this planet and what happened during visa very active and young face. Yeah so the atmospheres of planets. Tell us a great deal about the formation evolution of planets and also about all of the physical processes that are occurring on the plant surface and in the air especially those that might make the planet habitable or actually addictive of hosting life. We can use space based telescopes today. to to study the atmospheres of planets using a technique called transmission spectroscopy which is text the fingerprints of different chemical species in a planet's air such as water methane ozone or oxygen. We're currently using the hubble space telescope to study the planet's in the trappist one system to determine if they have hydrogen helium dominated atmospheres. It's actually great to find out if they don't that gives us a another push forward and having these planets be in fact rocky and also the potential of those planets to support water on their services just last year. Hubble actually probed the innermost planets travis. One system traffic being c. and found that they didn't have a hydrogen helium dominated atmospheres. So that's just one more step along the path to having these potentially habitable world that was nicole lewis astronomer at the space telescope science institute in baltimore. So i'll use is on exoplanets here. To give you a brief tour of the habitable zone of the trappist one system. So if we zoom out to the system away from the ho star you'll see all seven planets the innermost planet in the habitable zone is trappist one e. so in this illustration you'll you'll see an artist's rendition of trappist one e which is a really interesting planet for a number of reasons. It's very close. Incised it also receives about the same amount of light as earth's doesn't our own solar system. This means that in trappist one e you could have temperatures that are very very similar to the ones that we have here on earth the next planet is trappist one f. now this is a potentially water rich world that is again the same size as earth now trappist trappist one f has about a nine day or it and during that time it receives about the same amount of sunlight as mars does in our own solar system and the final planet in the habitable zone of the trappist one system is trappist one g now trappist one g is the largest planet the traffic one system about thirteen percent larger radius than that of earth and it receives about the same amount of starlight as somewhere in between mars and the asteroid belt in our solar system. We're hearing a lot of talk about that quote habitable zone but yeah so according to nasa which means that this number could be out of date of looking on a nasa website. And it's hard to keep these websites up today last. This website was updated. Kepler alone had found thirty exoplanets less than twice the size of the earth that were located in habitable zones by which i mean that area around a star were the temperature allows if the atmosphere of the planet is right for water to exist on the planet and ice cream liquid and gas is at the triple point of water now we have mars also theoretically in the habitable zone venus but these two worlds have chosen very different paths toward becoming not good places to live venus kept of its atmosphere said mine mine mine and then made it poisonous. Mars was like b free atmosphere. It left its atmosphere. Go away and without an atmosphere it also like lost all of its what are and things like that above the surface water locked down in the surface so both these worlds chose different paths towards non habitability while existing at someplace that given the correct atmosphere given the correct magnetic field. These worlds receive just the right amount of sunlight that they could have regions at this triple point of water and actually in january of two thousand twenty one. A new study of trappist one was published. That found that its planets have very similar densities and make-up's to each other but possibly very different from earth in our solar system there is a lot of variety planet densities. The new study has led scientists to believe that the planets have rocky services and iron rich course. Their chords are likely smaller than earth's since the planet each have a mass. Roughly eight percent less than earth's complaining the planetary interior models from the universities of bern and zurich with the planetary atmosphere models at the university of geneva they were able to evaluate the water content of the seven trappist one planet with the precision literally unprecedented for this category planet and these internal and atmospheric structure models show that the three inner planets the trap is one system are likely to be waterless and that the four outer planets wouldn't have more than a few percent water possibly liquid on their services whether the differences between earth and the travis planets changed the potential for life. Somewhere in the traffic one system is still unclear. We just don't know enough yet. And that's why the studies will continue. So what does the future look like in further. Study of this fascinating star system. I mean there are so many more questions to be answered. Here is sara seager professor of planetary science and physics at mit cambridge. At the nasa press conference in february two thousand. Seventeen one of the reasons. Astronomers are so excited about it is. It's a veritable laboratory for studying a planets orbiting very cool very small very dim red stars. That are so incredibly different from our son. In fact astronomers constantly go back forth about all the excitement about these worlds because they're very easy to study other people have fears and concerns. And so we actually get to tests many people's theories about these world being tidally locked and radiation from the hosts are and things like that. So hopefully. we're counting on speculative to find more of these systems and planets around these ultra cooled worse these very common stars that we can study so in addition to use in astronomy. When someone makes a discovery like this we almost any telescope that can sell up to follow up and so in that way we have We heard about hubble already from nicole but hubble kepler k. to spitzer and other telescopes are exploring the trappist system further. I'd say that what the team is most excited about. Although this is still a bit in the future is the james webb space telescope because with this telescope and the reason the trap is planets are so significant is that they are accessible to observations with james webb space telescope. So with the james webb will be able to study the atmospheres and we will try to assess the greenhouse gas content which will help us understand the surface temperature of the planets. Are they indeed. The right temperature to support liquid water in life as we know it in fact we're even gonna use the james webb search for gases gas. That don't belong. That might be produced by life. Such as oxygen methane a whole host of other gases to me a looking from the point of nasa science broken. It's exciting because it's of course it's a leap forward but it goes in parallel to the other leaps. Were taking right now. look at. What's happening at mars where we're really looking at the complex chemistry. That's happening looked at the recognition. That mars actually is a place where not only used to be water. But there's water today. Abundant water in parallel to that You know the recognition that we now have technology ability of going to europa and actually looking at that system which is in its own right. Neely an exciting system he goes. There's a notion world. they're not hit. Stop rock at the bottom. You know really unexpected place. In in sight there's many otter places like that and then on the theory side. We already heard i Really understanding of the biology of life's gonna if there's a tremendous amount of progress to get her these areas really create kind of crescendo toward stat Really answering that question that has been on our minds for so long. This is the right time to ask the question this time to have this discovery right now. A yellow dwarf sized. Thank you to senior scientists at the planetary science institute dr pamela gay and publisher of universe today for cain for allowing me to use portions of their wonderful astronomy. Podcast called astronomy. Cast if you appreciate space and science this is definitely a podcast. That's worth adding to your platelets. You can find a strong cast at the same place. You're listening to this at their dot com and you too. So what do you think you heard travis one before today. Have you googled already to take a look at the artist conception of the planet's yet are you excited about all the exoplanet discoveries. I love to know my email is studio at sonic embassy dot com. You can also find the sonic embassy on twitter. Vero facebook patriotic and i g our website sonic embassy dot com some great resources to check out. Besides your favorite search engine are exoplanets dot nasa dot gov es dot org exoplanet dot edu. J. w dot org earth sky dot org and trappist dot winnie if you enjoy this episode. Share it so more people can find out about us but if you think. This podcast was not worth further observation. Well you should share that. On social media with linked to sonic embassy dot com slash podcast. That would really show me if you have an idea that you think would make a great episode and let me know. Thank you so much for listening. Love you and hope you'll listen more. Hey there's another episode of milky way marvels in the works so follow the sonic embassy to stay up to date super bass. Sonic in this.
NASA's Big Tease
"Love this podcast support this show through the ACOSS support supportive feature. It's up to you how much give and there's no regular commitment. Just hit the link in the show description to support now. Fifteen seconds guided, Journal. Admission sequence space nuts. Three To. What it feels good. Alot once again welcome. Thank you for joining us on the space nuts podcast episode two, hundred, twenty six. My name is Andrew Dunkley and joining me as always is the good professor Fred Watson Astronomer at large Hell Fred. I'm delighted to be thought. It was good. It's always good to be good. Yeah. Sometimes you know sometimes people think show go. Thank you. To dont believe that for one moment nine, nine, that at least three people to listen to our podcast field assign. Today. We're going to be Told me about a couple of stories set a big in astronomical news this week one I've been teasing us about. and. Finally announced in that is that they might be more water on the moon than we first thought, and while we're on the moon, we gotta talk about that collaboration between NASA Inaki to put a four g network, a mobile phone network on the Moon the deadly serious about it but that radio astronomy thrilled and we guide to revisit as promised the Asya required mission, which successfully bounced off asteroid been kicked up the dust collected. Some samples and looks like Motoo much because get the lead on so We'll see what's happening. And a couple of really interesting questions one about the use of the Sun as a gravitational lens and another as to why after the summer solstice in the southern. The sun still continues to sit lighter, which is a little bit of a confusing. Normally we'll explain all of that and much much more today on spice nuts now fred you on a bit of a road trip. Last while you not indeed yes. It was down in the south of the state we visit the. Decisive Cambra. The astronomical sites have camera which included monstrum low observe a tree had a look at some of the the. Remains of telescopes after the fire that went through there in two thousand and three But also spoke to our group about what's going on now, which is great stuff Then we went to Tidbinbilla to the tracking station which is spice network along with Goldstone Madrid. To Been Bella provides the. Coverage for deep spice vehicles a towel along a Tude and. They've got some very impressive dishes including three new ones which working a slightly different way from the old ones. But one thing that was a highlight of visit an might give a shoutout to Glenn Nagel who's a good friend and Somebody who is actually head of communications at communications and outreach He gave up his Sunday for us week ago last Sunday to to give a certain fool Toa, which was brilliant the the highlight of the tool for so many people was the old honeysuckle creek dish which was moved to Tidbinbilla. Right doesn't operate anymore but that was the one that got first signals from Apollo. When the astronauts walked on the moon. Despite what the movie says it was only Creek I. then. That's right. Yeah people in the know know that but. They certainly tried it as as the pox radio telescope and it was instrumental in getting signals ATAS wells are. play very big part in the Apollo, eleven landings and. Fantastic. Love. Frayed the Australian names Tidbinbilla. And some some of the aboriginal names to get attached to things where I live in Dabo the would. Is supposed to be and the I think they've always had trouble confirming this, but it's supposed to main writer in the wind you are allowing windy. In the local aboriginal language rate of this because this region, he's red soil. A ticket further at West when it turns black and gets very sticky when it rains. We have some really amazing straight to Fred we've got wind Jawara Straight. which I believe I started remember the meaning of it. We're another one cold wilander. Now I think that means swamp. And we've got another one cold straight. There will aboriginal words from the local each other we're language. Near they've been. Used here and a lot of street signs might up with local aboriginal odd as well. Capturing the local culture I think it's terrific. Yes. When when I lived in Coonabarabran, of course that to is it's gum or Gummer I would. Do. You know what it means couldn't about Auburn. I do not, but I'm going to think it's something to do with mountains. Even more appropriate than that. It's inquisitive person. Can that's perfect. That is perfect for. Great. Yeah. So, just continuing the story we then we then spent some time in the snowy mountains and there still a little bit of snow and then down to the coast where we. Had some sell things I've never seen before some extraordinary places down in Eaton and. Tobago Bay. Parts of partner was that I've never explored before and the best thing. Despite the fact that the Bureau of Meteorology Forecast, doom and gloom weather conditions for the whole week, it was perfectly fine. The whole it was great. Yeah we'll got them up north instead and I'm very sad to say that we were talking about the cropping around here recently and how this just crops, his files, the consent, and they just needed a couple of weeks of dry weather to get the crops in. Sadly a couple of areas of been absolutely decimated by hailstorm. So that's very, very sad news indeed. Hopefully that can get those crops off because they desperately need a good season. We haven't had one for three or four years. Let's get onto our first topic, Fred Monarchic Better Strategy and history and information for ages. The hidden pockets of water that may exist on the moon. This is a story that's fondly That would teasing us for a good Waco side leading up to this but NASA has made the announcement that they might be a lot more water there than they first thought. That's right an. The main the data to discover is involved with this. Of which one is confirmation. Excuse me that the infrared signal that we see when you use infrared telescopes to look at the moon that infrared signal comes actually from water because earlier results. Dating from about two thousand and nine were ambiguous it could been either H to water. All the. Radical hydroxyl radical which. In some ways is a form of wall. Street's combination of find your oxygen, but he's not water we know it. So. The signal that was detected back in two thousand nine could have been either. People assumed it was water but now it has been confirmed and it's been confirmed actually by a fascinating telescope that one of my colleagues is used several times. It's a NASA facility. As a telescope built into the after section of a seven, four, seven S P, the old special performance seven, four seven. This is probably an elderly aircraft, but it's been modified. To have a large telescope, a poking through a huge hole in the back is probably. Sign the one. In diameter. Square in fact, is one point. Sorry. It's a two point four MI telescope in two hundred inch telescope that they've got mounted in the back of the seven, four seven. The aircraft is called Sophia, which is the stratospheric observatory for infrared astronomy, lovely acronym and it flies from time to time to make evasions usually at tight in the region of forty, five, thousand feet you know you're there in the above, all the moisture, virtually all the moisture in the atmosphere. which is way you can make these fine of mid infrared observations until it was sophia observations that were. Used by astronomers. Think based in the University of Hawaii. To detect the infrared signal that is categorically from H. Two O. Rather Than Oh. So we know that it is water. That's there. Now the extraordinary thing is that That has that work has been done. So the in conjunction of suddenly parallel with work that has been carried out by scientists. I think the University of Calcutta Colorado Colorado buggy pardon if I remember rightly or allies the next state across that's right. It's pull Hain of the University of Colorado who's lead the paper. which is so what they dumb he's looked at the areas of the moon the drink permanent shadow because that's where we think this water is mostly concentrated as ice. Although it's possible that might be liquid water not of course, not open to the. Know to the empty space probably trapped inside minerals may be mineral glasses. It sounds bizarre but that sort of thing can happen when meteoroid impact. The surface of the moon, he might have liquid water trapped tiny. Vials of of volcanic or a meteoroid glass. Anyway and the probably the bulk of it will be in the form of ice either bound up with the soil. The soil grinds or maybe even certainly in the base of some of the bigger crisis that never see sunlight maybe even if she. A sheets of ice because. Lunar reconnaissance orbiter the NASA spacecraft to the moon still active. Has detected radar signals of radar returns from those very polar craters suggests that what you're looking at surface this basically shiny very, very smooth and shiny. So maiden device. And the reason why that is a stable is because as I said the creative flaws never see. The light of day they never say the some the temperature. Because of that can get as low as minus two, hundred, fifty degrees, Celsius you might WanNa come into. But I'M NOT GONNA do it in my head a minus fifty degrees Celsius you know thirty degrees or so to. Twenty thirty degrees above absolute zero it's very, very cold until the ICIES, essentially stabilize just like a rocky surface. The. That's that's where the bulk of this water is Bob. This other type, this poll hain paper it'll from the University of Colorado what they've done. is about to say they've they've looked at what they called cold traps a place that is in permanent shadow. And it doesn't have to be in the floor of the crater. They're all in the in the polar regions of the some a sorry the moon. But they don't have to be in Christ is because he can imagine a situation where you've got. A hill or even something small like a boulder that casts a permanent shadow where you will never going to see some light and so what they've done is they've they've looked at the surface of the moon, of course, which is very well matched by. Things like the lunar reconnaissance orbiter a Dave. What tout where these places have permanent shadow down to a scale of one centimeter. Now, they come to the conclusion that forty thousand square kilometres of the moon surface is in permanent shadow. And contains these cold traps which range from the floors of craters to something a centimeter across they reckon there are billions of them basically. What that means when you combine that with the idea that you've got probably most of these opponent. Shadow regions. You've probably got the ice because the signal is so strong Then you can calculate how much water there is on the movement and they're talking somewhere in the region of. Well two to three billion tons of water for crave, which is a big resorts, and of course that is exciting for would be explorers of the moon because not only is water something that will support Habitat's. It also is rocket fuel because use use sunlight to generate electricity to to electrolytes it so that you've got the the component hydrogen and oxygen. Atoms than you recombine them. That rocket fuel. So there is work already being Donald Making a business case for. The exploration of the moon in terms of of using it as a fuel depot. Strossen aid and. By. Four hundred and eighteen degrees below zero Fahrenheit. Thank you for that. The number looking. which is damn called Namco. Dan called. Yeah. Actually the discovery of water on the Moon was portrayed in that TV series I was telling you about a couple of weeks ago for all mankind the alternative history series where Russia landed I I also landed the first female on the moon the American set up a base. Near. Crater to try and sort of take the lead in the spice rice. And they discovered water in a in a lava tube in a crater. And water ice and they Yes. The whole story of establishing base was built around the discovery of us. And we're talking back in the seventies when I supposedly set up a human base on the moon, which in the alternative reality of the of the movie is feasible. But I think would have been in the realms of science fiction in reality probably not today but back then visual. Fascinating series if anyone wants to watch it, it's It's really well done highly highly professional, great acting and just a really fascinating story line. And some of the political. Story lines within it fascinating too as to WHO's the president at various times and? I think find a mess I. Think it's on Apple TV. Oracle but. Enjoy show really really just mesmerizing I just loved it. And hopefully, they'll make a second season. we done with that topic. Actually we're not because On the Moon they are now looking at putting afford J. Mobile Phone Network Cell Network on the moon with the support of Nacchio which has got a few people upset in the astronomical. Oiled yes. So it till almost follows on from what we were just saying the. The ultimate project. Ultimate project, which is. Aiming to sign the first woman and the next man to the Moon in twenty twenty four. That project. Is aiming actually at the southern polar region of the moon. So they hopefully, we'll find out for certain. What for this is is in, but part of the project is to build a sort of you know a kind of permanent base on the moon. Permanently habit habit bay inhabited base. With a view to learning about A. LONG-TERM SPACEFLIGHT Principally with the idea of going tomorrow's in the next decade. So The the ultimate program is actually. Pretty broad brush thing and I imagine envisages. Luna landers may be habitation modules actually sitting permanently on the moon's surface. So what has happened is that NASA has recognized that if you've got Astronauts wandering? Around. A Lunar Rovers. And things of that sort of trying to find their way. With the Without the benefit of GPS. The the need is for solid communications and what they've done what NASA has done is to basically contracts Nokia the Nokia Company actually the American Naccache Company to develop a cellular cellular network on the moon and to facilitate as long term loom lunar habitability providing communications for key aspects such as Lunar Rovers and navigation. The lunar four G. Network. So that contracts already being awarded forty point one million dollars to develop that network and the immediate consequence was a lot of very upset radio astronomers because. Johnny uses the most sensitive antennas in the world to look at signals from space, which would be basically flooded out by the by the nausea. A cellnet. At specific frequencies that this is one thing that we have to be clear about it's not. It's not like flooding. A something on the ground with white light where you've got every frequency represented, these communications preconceived quite specific. But. At least one of them, certainly one, the the styling network as using as very close to a radio, strongly band of interest and interest because it's where a lot of organic molecules actually emit that Radio Ways David, space, precursors, life things of that sort which, of course radio is that really interested and if we're going to be flooded out in those wavebands by. Communications either from. constellations of spacecraft above the earth or by. Radio. Phone networks on the moon we we are struggling. We're going to be struggling and I think radio astronomy are going to have to be working with the communications people to try and mitigate the consequences of all the already happening sandwich spice eggs. I'm sure radio astronomers are talking to care as well about what the lunar. Lunar proposal that look like. Now hyped I can come to some sort of a agreement or understanding it would be a terrible thing to have basically an arm cut off by radio signals. From satellites and a alumina four, J. Network and Lose, that connectivity with the potential of discovery I think that would be a a really big jointly backwards The big question for me is with this four J. Network on the moon will the astronauts be able to phone home? Probably. Add to ask someone had to ask. Berbick and phone home except case. Exactly. Right. You're listening to the space and that's podcast. Andrew, gently here with Fred Watson with. North space nuts. Now before we get onto our next topic, I got some exotic news freedom a little bit thrilled. As you know, I, released early this year. Another Sohn's fiction novel called the terrain Ian Nick Moore and I decided after. Pressure will several requests. Let's call it that to put it into audio form which took me a long time. But it finally got released and is out there on Google books and Apple. audio. I am very pleased to be able to say that it's now an audible. A lot of people use audible, which is an Amazon company to download the books and a few people have been waiting for me to be able to say that it's on audible and yes, it is. So it's on audible dot com. It's also available in Australia on audible Dot Com dot a U Sarah if you'd like to download the audio edition of the Iranian `Nigma? it is now available on just about every audible audiobook platform but now an audible dot com, an audible dot com, you very excited about that. Congratulations. Notably Is a big coup. That's fantastic. Yeah. And it's damn hot work on Albanian radio for a long time and doing voice what goes with the goes with the GIG. But recording an audio book, a completely different animal and it really can. Be Quite texting and I think I've mentioned before that when you're doing it by yourself and have go the backing of a studio or a producer or you've really got to do everything yourself which did. In this spot where I'm sitting on this marker talking to you on, sorry you gotTa Bring Quality and apply and try and keep it all the same standard even recording segments weeks and weeks and weeks apart. But then go watch out for getting a cold and your voice changing or losing your voice will. So all sorts. In favor because it can all change there's a lot of pitfalls but the the the big struggle ahead had didn't bother to fix it. Was Of got into the story was recording a segment weeks off the recording another segment I couldn't remember what voice used for the character. Of? A, blow it all this. Does go with something else hyper this design fewer. Just left and actually. I had a bit fade back from someone who listened to it nigh. They loved it and I said it was a bit worried about the character voices and I went Oh, we didn't notice. So that's good. Probably shouldn't have mentioned. But anyway. It's gripe with paying someone who hates editing it that's the hard long. Living. Longer than actually rating. CHAPA. Recording it. Unless you really good at reading make mistakes but that's very. Very. Unlikely for most people even the best in the business manfred. Let's get onto the. Rex Mission This was a mission way we yet we sent the our SARS rex probe to the asteroid Banu, which it sorta hung around. Looking for a good long while up until last week when I decided I, Kai we're GonNa land on this thing and take a sample while it was a success. until it may be wasn't where we we've Houston, we have a problem. Yeah. Hopefully, not long term problem hopefully solvable but Yeah I think I think the bottom line is they were too successful would that be way of describing it? So the just to recap the the device that they use, it's so the spacecraft itself approaches the surface of of asteroid. Benadryl did this last week in fats. With a kind of almost like a miniature BECO-. Stretched out, which contains a device on the end, which is called Tag Sam. Tag. Sam Is an acronym for touch and go sample acquisition mechanism scrape. On. Mind that one. That one at all go to the feeling of just touching the surface to it hasn't it tax tag lock the game. Exactly. So I'm so this is sort of like a pan. which collects the the sample. Then there apparently is. as a Myla flap, which is meant to seal shocked wants the sample has been collected. Box they were so successful with the tags on the some of the some of the bigger bits of soil and doug that didn't go through the flat properly have wedged it open. Now. They've been the they've collected more than they expect it to. And Dot. Essentially. Maine's that. I feel that they have the possibility of collecting. If they didn't feel that got enough they have the possibility of collecting another sample in January I think the eleventh of January but that I think has now been ditched because they feel they've got enough. In fact has as the NASA bulletin says because the first sample collection event was so successful Nasa Science Mission Directorate has given the mission team the go-ahead to expedite sample storage. In originally scheduled for the second of November. In the space craft sample return capsule to minimise for the sample loss. So this is a separate capsule, the Ash L. see the sample return capsule. which they've got a stow, the sampling and. One there's a quote from Dante Lauretta who's the principal investigator for Cyrus? Rex University of Arizona, the abundance of material we collected from new made it possible to expedite our decision to stow the team is now working around the clock to accelerate the storage line. So we can protect as much of this material as possible for return to Earth now. This is where it gets tricky because what was expected to happen with the storage procedure was that? Cyrus. Rex. would run autonomously through a sequence of events. and. So what they're doing now. A saying, no, we don't want that to happen. We want this to be done. So carefully, carefully enough that we don't lose soil face so they gotta do it all by hand in other words, send a command watch. What happens. And then send the next command watch. What happens the problem is you've got thirty seven minute delay between sending the command and knowing what he's done because they signal travel time at the moment between us and the spacecraft is eighteen point four, five minutes. So each step means that you've got a way for thirty seven minutes while you take the step and then wait to see what happened. In in the in the consequences, it's GonNa be very, very painful I. Think Andrew. This is probably happening as we speak 'cause shadow for the twenty seventh of October. USTA. I would we are the following day? So I, think it's happening now so By the time this this goes to add the outcome might note already oh drought. We've lost it all up. Sure it will be why. Hope not but yeah, it's In terms of glitches when it comes to space missions, this is not the worst. It's ever happened on a visit to another world or another object but. Know, there's been the famous cases of lind's caps getting stuck on by hate all sorts of weird and wonderful things but. it sounds like that go to solution and when Libby Watch. Documentaries or movies about problems in space it's always about working the problem and they obviously have got an idea on how to deal with this. The just GonNa have to be very careful with the execution. Thus correct exactly which is why the doing it one step at the. Rock will we might have a follow up to that yet again next week so we'll Kepa on the Sarah rix mission. which I think will only be the second time that a private is brought back matter from my an asteroid. I think the Japanese have done at once well, done it once already, and there's one other Japanese will on the way back, which will come down. Here in Australia in fact in December think. So. Not, Third attack is. Very good. While the more we get the more we learn that's what it's all about. Greed. Sorry. Any samples at least that we can get back. Absolutely invaluable scientifically. Indeed totally agree this is the space nuts podcast episode two, hundred, twenty, six with Andrew. Dunkley, and Professor Fred Watson. Today's show is brought to you by express VPN protect your online activity today and find out how you can get three months free at trikes. VPN DOT com slash space. That's try express VPN DOT com slash space for three months free with a one year package visit try express vpn. Dot Com slash spice to learn more space nuts a big share out to patrons Hey you support us we appreciate it the the Patriot dot com slash spice nuts page is an option where you can choose as little or as much as you wish to contribute once a month totally Voluntarily if you'd like to become a patron spice Nazis on patriots, dot com slash spice nuts there's also the option to go through were subpoenaed cast and also packages available through super cast Again, not expensive, but you can choose whichever but it also gives you access to multiple podcasts. So he can. You can buy package if you want to do it that way or you can just make a strike nation I think pipe pile is now an option if you want to do it that way and as I say all the time, this is not a requirement is not. Something we. Want you to absolutely do as a must. It's totally voluntarily voluntary. We would not forced to do that will never ever switch it to a pay only service so We just appreciate those people who've come to us and said, we wanted to give you something for the work you do. That's how you do it at all the details or on our website spice nuts podcast dot com. Now, let's tackle a couple of questions this one I. Now you particularly love this comes from Manson in Sydney. of always been intrigued as to why the longest day of the year doesn't have the lightest sunset time of the year. In Sydney. The longest diet is the twenty first of December. But the sunset time continues to get lighter in the evening h day for some time after this, I haven't ever really been able to conceptualize why this is. So perhaps Fred could help edify may such that I can demonstrate my superior knowledge to my old man who has always asked this question who's also asked this question before thanks now I do recall we have talked about this I think on the radio used IT IS A. Strange thing because after the the longest day. The summer solstice in the Southern Hemisphere. it would be natural to assume that the days start to get shorter after that and the do but the sunset continues to happen a lighter and that's where he's confused. Yeah it look say it is a great question. Is a you quite rightly? So one one of those that I've always relished since I I answer the actually for. A newsletter was worked for Her Majesty's Nautical ALMANAC office. Observatory, back in the nineteen seventies nineteen seventies so. Might actually just do it because I cover these questions in my book. Wise. Uranus upside down another questions about the universe which published actually quantum. Tell Him we go back in two thousand seven. Hundred fifty questions that people ask is on the radio. This is one of them. Why doesn't the at least what for the longest day? Coincide with the Early Sunrise on the latest sunset. it actually in the books, count she of the way to by the shortest because the same thing happens. So let me give you the figures. Okay for the summer solstice. Exactly as as I mentioned. Only. I'm doing this. I'm reading from the book for two thousand, seven of the date said just very slightly different but basically eat. The same thing in some the earliest sunrise is on the sixth of December. This is in Sydney again. Six of December is the earliest sunrise. So after that the sun rises stop getting lighter and you know you would think the days are getting shorter but they know not. Getting longer. Getting longer the Solstice, which is on the twenty second of December. And then start getting shorter as you said, but the lady sunset is actually not until the seventh of January the following year. This skewing, the early sunrise, six, six of December. The shortest. Sorry. The Longest Day is the twenty second of December. The latest sunset is. Until the center January and you'd expect intuitively all those things to be on the same date you'd expect to be on the twenty second of December Butler dog it's actually A. Slightly complex reason but it is all about. The fact that. The Sun as a timekeeper is not very good and we know that because if you have a Sundial. The time that you record with a Sundial is not the same as you clock time. Varies throughout the year it averages out to be the same over a year but there are times in the year when the clock is running ahead of the Sundial, times of the year when the clock is running behind the Sundial and the difference between them is something that for centuries has been called the equation of time an implicit graph of the equation of time in fact, anybody who's listening to this if anybody does. If, you check out on the web and you can see you'll be able to see just google the question of Taibbi. Well to see the way varies throughout the year that equation of time is the difference between a clock time and Sundial telling, and it comes about because the Soviet first of all is not circular the SOB political we are closest to the sun and the third of January. And For, this away on about the July. So it's It's a an elliptical orbit that means that the the US progression around its orbit is not constant speed and that combined with the fact that the. The tax is tilted with respect to the pope indicator. The on celebrates that is what produces the equation of time is what gives you this funny little graph. That shows the difference between clock time and Sundial time now. Okay. How does that relate to the solstice? Probably the easiest way for me to deal with this really out the Buke. Book Myself. Read so that you'll woods. Yeah. So. Okay. So if you Can think about. The. Chairman, just let me just really upset. So, says, why don't least to Berlin why? Why doesn't this bewildering set of dates coincide? That's what the ones who are just given reason has to do with the sun's bizarre behavior in running fast and slow. As described in the book you'll have to read. It's the good old equation of time again at certain times of the year, the interval between. Nunes. On successive days is slightly greater than twenty four hours of telling. And other times of the year, a slightly less the differences counseling one another out over the whole year. Nia, the southern summer solstice. The time between successive nunes. As thirty seconds less than twenty four hours. So. That's the the crucial part of this. Big Chunk. It. It's a lot of time. Yeah. So it's it's when the equation of time is the extreme. That difference and? Here's the crucial point that difference of a thirty seconds per day. Greater than the difference between the sunrise and Sunset Times on on successive days. and. So the equation of time becomes the dominant effect. The fact that that's changing more rapidly than you sunrise and Sunset Times on the result of that is to stagger the date. Of the earliest rise on sunset times on the SOLSTICES booksellers disease, not actually more pronounced in December in June because of the larger discrepancy between the solar. Day, and twenty, four, a clock Tyne, and here's another thing. It's less pronounced at high latitudes. So it was something I never noticed when I lived in the UK, latitude fifty five also whereas down here in Australia latitude. Thirty seventy, three, thirty, four in Sydney your at about thirty one in. About thirty two, I think in in the double. Its Greater daily change in the sunrise and Sunset Times, and this is the bottom line. If you were to plot tables of sunrise and Sunset Times they stone Sundial time rather than clock time the effect would disappear altogether. So it's all about the fact that the sun. Moves apparently moves around our skies. As seen with the Sundial is not a good timekeeper. So we never invented the clock we wouldn't have noticed. Yes. That's right. If we don't always relied on Sundays, we would notice. A Good time timekeepers. So it was really with the mechanical clock, the invention of the mechanical clog, the the idea of. Of the question of telling emerged. It's an excellent. It's not easy. So, go ahead. Now. My brain hurts just China. If possible to try and get my head around a bit if you asked me to explain it right now at odds collapse and ED good lack explaining it to your dad well, the best. Could is give him a copy of Weiser upside output personally. Jewish. Is the sales paged. Medicine. Great Question. I was. So as you spoke and explain to allow my thought was will wouldn't have Sundall always be seven minutes behind. In it's because of the travelling time of lots but. Sometimes don't take into account to toll. People dinner when I invented thousand no idea that there's somebody takes eight minutes to get here. Yeah. So all sorts of things to consider but don thanks for the question that it's an absolute ripper in a much more complex than I think you might have been anticipating. Now. Let's move onto our next question and comes from Brooke Pederson. now Bracha dropped an audio question down that we haven't been able to collect those. Siwa he very, very thoughtfully. Senate. To in text just in case and he said on a recent episode of Cosmos with Neil degrasse Tyson he says that we could set up a telescope in spice that uses the spice curvature of the Sun as a lens to view distant far off locations with extreme magnification a points to the question why we haven't done this yet as we have the technology do you know why we aren't doing this and do you know why at what kind of resolving power we would get Could we look at planets orbiting in the ANDROMEDA? Galaxy, for example, great podcast you too and I hope because forever pay US Fred I, you ever going to be able to guest on stargazing live again love seeing you on it. Last time Pederson I think also you last time to read. Well hopefully when stargazing live returns, it will do eventually. We'll see what happens. The time stargazing was couldn't be there because that was how she leading an eclipse in in south. America. That was last year. So that's why. I couldn't. Tell. Eclipse to way because I wanted to be on stargazing live just didn't work that way. Refer, to. The previous question. Exam. Okay. So This is an interesting. Certainly an idea that has been discussed fool. Why hasn't? Dumb, yet well, because it doesn't work. Not. As not as neatly untidily as a suggestion from Neil degrasse Tyson comes about about she say nappies. Of Cosmos the problem is an okay. You have gravitating body like like the Sun and first of all, it will be a lot easier to do this with the earth than the sun because the sun is a luminous object until he tried to if you're trying to use the space curvature to to bend the light from distant objects. You. Festival have to get rid of the light of the Sun One Way to do that is by means of an eclipse in that she how relatively was first Confirmed in one, thousand, nine, hundred, nineteen by total clips of the Selo. The I think the twenty fourth of. May. I, remember rightly. And so that was in a in a sense doing while this question, he's talking about they they look to the way the images of stars were moved away from the disk of the Sun by the gravitational coverage of the spice around the Sun. But the problem with well, that's okay. So let's get rid of this song because that's a terrible idea that sounds too luminous, but you might think about doing it with the earth. So. Or even the moon actually you the moon would distill space to some level. The would let you. Actually form an image a long way from the moon along the Axis between the moon and the object that you're looking at trying to study. But the difficulty is that it's not a lands as we think of it it's actually If you. If you think of the telescope, it's a bit like a spectacle lenses you know. Usually convection in the middle ticket in the middle of the than at the edge to make a comeback that's the basic form of Telescope Lens. Lands that would mimic the gravitational distortion of the sun is a different shape, and in fact, is more or less the shape of the bottom of the wine glass. Somewhere. I've got a broken off bottom of the wine glass which actually simulates very well watch. The imaging properties of an object in space. And it doesn't form an image of the kind that you can examine. microscopically to look details like planets orbiting thousand Andromeda galaxy what you get is what what is called? What is it cold of forgotten the name that's ridiculous. It'll come to me in a minute Piece of optical terminology. Way You've basically the the the the light forms accussed. and. Counter another name on the tip of my tongue never mind it doesn't matter. Timeframe. Sorry. Saying Andrew. To me all the time. Okay I've got it now. Forms a caustic. The technical name is a caustic curve image, and that is not the kind of image that you can magnify with. You know the kind of equipment in to look at planets around stars. The might be ways that you could do. that. You could modify that correcting lenses but. It actually becomes an engineering. Challenge, which is kind of. A on a hiding to nothing because the more. Engineering, you do to try and give yourself a proper image from the custody image that you get that you would get. Is actually quite serious stuff and in the end is a lot better to use a conventional telescope. Like You know the extremely large telescopes that are on the horizon. At the way, you can control the imaging properties at first hand. I'll come back to that in a second because I want to point out one of the other issues with trying to use a natural object as a as A. Telescope and that is that you've got to be you know you've gotta get the spacecraft to detect the image in the same direction are opposite the Athol whatever you look using your gravitational lens as the target that you're looking at so. You've got all the dynamics of that to cope with as well and just basically amounts to being a starter. So. Neil degrasse Tyson positing the question why we have done it yet has a lot of very sensible answers. If you want you send it to me, I'll tell you why w. yet because we don't have the technology absolutely not. Just one other aside on this. Is that yes, we do use this phenomenon for. The. Mike defecation of very distant galaxies. We use it all the time you enough to spoken about saying where you go the cluster of galaxies. and. Gravitational distortion lets you see all these strangely curved images which cost stakes exactly as described of much more distant galaxies and you can actually some level reconstruct goes images to to give you some sort of idea what's going on we? We actually had I think we talked about this with a with a ring of light at an Einstein ring that was reconstructed into image of his property galaxy. We've we've done that already. But this is an situations which are very different from using the sun or a planet as a telescope that you can point around the sky they're just taking advantage of. A natural alignment. The technology does exist to reconstruct the images, but it's a very poor resolution. Because, they know the difficulties quite high. So going back to what I was just saying. With. The extremely large telescopes and in particular, the European won the LT which will have a mirror thirty, nine meters in diameter that will have the resolving power. To, see the planets of stars in the andromeda Galaxy it's it's phenomenal. The level solution that you will get with that. Now, it's a very difficult. Problem to do that because. You've got A. Lot Out the light of the star before you can see a planet but at the You know extreme resolutions that we will get with these Lt's. That will actually let us explore. The stellar population of of galaxies like dromader. At close at close hand at least it will if there's one in the northern hemisphere, the TNT thirty meter telescope is the Northern Hemisphere. Equivalent of the of the European Southern, Observatory's down in Chile the Lt. That sadly held up at the moment because of issues with the location of the summit amount, of K., which. Is All to do with the traditional owners and it's a very, very difficult problem much more difficult than imaging starting different Calix. Planets in different galaxies, you know a problem that really has no easy answers. It might result in telescope being built elsewhere. Perhaps of LAPA on the island of power in the Canary which is. Not Quite as good as scientists. Monica. But still pretty good. I've got off the track there but. Regular telescopes who've got a lot to offer and You know the meteorite likewise in the radio spectrum will have very fine resolving. Because antennas spread over Lounge area, and so we don't need to worry too much about looking at gravitational lenses they're paying to deal with. And once in a while, we get a fortunate. Juxtaposition that let's see galaxies behind a cluster of galaxies. Let's get decent results from it, but it's not something I? Think you could use as a routine method of observing. They you go. Along to a short question. But a good question well, worth asking brock. Thank you so much we. It, and thank you everyone who sends in questions with starting to pull them up again But of course, as always if you'd like to send in a question, go to our website spice nuts podcast dot com, you can send it the traditional way through contact portal or you can click on the Tab and record you'll question just tell us who you away from and ask your question as long as you've got a microphone attached to your device that operates Will We will receive it and more than happy to they got through them and pick and choose which ones get put on the we can't do the Malays is just too many that we had a little drought, but that's certainly not the case Nabet. Cape him coming that's what we like. Fred that brings us to the end of what turned out to be lengthy episode that very, very good. Indeed. Thank you so much integrate hundred. Actually turned out to be lingering. Good. Well, never mind. It's all good stuff. Thank you very much. It's under for because we're approaching the summer solstice and now that. The length of our episodes is actually longer than I a p. That's what's happening. She'll be doing Sundial by this little number. Maybe. That's how tell the time on radio by the way. Thank you fred. We'll catch you next time. Sounds Great. Hundred. Say. Fred, Fred Watson Astronomer. Lodge here on the space and that's podcast and for me Andrew Dice. Clay. Thanks again for listening. Tell you friends say hi to your mom for me and we'll catch you on the next episode. To the spice nuts podcast. Subscribe to the podcast on Itunes and stitcher all your favorite podcast distributed. This is another quality podcast production. Dot Com. All Gin joints in all the towns in all the world. She walks into mine. Welcome to a new podcast for the movie lover and all of US high type is here host of the classic film. Club. On the Film Creek from International. Trade paper. Variety. A documentary filmmaker. And our programmed freaked me out sidebar series pistol. Hot from all, that of film frenetic, all my life I'm especially interested in looking at old navy classes through modernize and shining a light on listening treasures from past one, hundred, twenty, five years of Cinema Classic Film Club available by Apple podcast Google podcasts, spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from for more details. Join our facebook group just search for the Classic Film Club podcast group or visit our website at the classic film. Club. Dot Com. The Classic Film Club New FROM BITES DOT COM. CAST powers. Some of the world's best podcasts. Here's a show we recommend. Hi I'm Beth and I'm Sarah and where the hosts of pants, you politics where we've built a community around grace filled political conversations and we wanted to share the words of our listeners because they understand. Best. 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T+167: Phillip Hargrove, NASA Launch Services Program
"Hello and welcome to main engine cutoff I'm Anthony Colangelo back for a third time in a row with a special guest, there's not a lot of analyze -able news right now, that is my specialty, but there are ton of interesting people that I want to talk to, and they all happened to hit at the same time. So today we've got Philip Hargrove with us. He is a launch vehicle trajectory an analyst at NASA specifically. Launch. Services. program. And I'm I've been interesting to talk to somebody from LSP for a long time because it feels like one of those things. That's a little bit mystical to everyone on the outside they. They sit at this point between the NASA mission teams like Mars Twenty Twenty Perseverance Psyche Lucy, all the science missions that you know, end the launch providers that are flying those missions like, united. Launch Alliance like SPACEX and their work is really the point at which all that ties together So I've. I've been dying have somebody on the show to talk about this and I reached out to up and he was game. So we'RE GONNA be. Be talking a lot about those missions that they fly there. We're GONNA talk a lot about the nature of Work Lsp, and then my hobby horse will get into the polar orbit flights out. Of Cape, Canaveral that are coming up for SPACEX, they're going to be flying Southcom one B right now, it's slipped to. August. But sometime, in the next couple of months, they'll be flying to a polar orbit out of Cape Canaveral, which is really cool and something that hasn't happened in about sixty years before we get into the interview, I wanted just plug a couple of things. Tomorrow this coming on Wednesday July twenty ninth on Thursday July. Thirtieth. Moore's two, thousand, twenty perseverance is launching and I will be producing a livestream for my friend. Jake. Robbins. Martians podcast, it's going to be happening on the off nominal youtube page. So as confusing is that all is that's where all of our video stuff's going you dot com slash off nominal We're going to be hanging out about t minus forty the launches very early, the launches at seven, fifty, a m eastern time. So if you're up early head over to youtube and watch the stream, Jake's got a couple of guests lined up, I'll be behind the scenes pushing the buttons so that he can focus on the launch. It's GonNa be a good time. So come check us out on that topic off nominal I. I WanNa plug that show because we've been having a great couple of interviews lately on off nominal, a great couple of guests on for conversations, and there aren't many that are more fun than we just had on this past weekend, Richard Gary It. He is a longtime video game developer designer very story developer, and eventually flew to space up to the IRS for about a week back in two, thousand, eight, his father Owen Gary, it was an astronaut on Skylab and space shuttle. So we got into all sorts of stories with him about trips to the bottom of the ocean up to space we talk about. The commonalities there, the differences and he one time watched Soyuz from two hundred meters away which was Kinda. Crazy. So we've got into a ton of interesting stories. So head over to off nominal dot spaced check that one out. But for now, let's get into this conversation with Phillip and give them a call. Philip so much for joining me here for an episode of main engine cutoff. Welcome to the show. Thanks, thanks for having me. I'm really excited about this one. For a myriad of reasons, but also, I've been dying to talk to somebody about. Like launch trajectories in general, and specifically some of the cool ones that we're going to talk to talk about today. So I am pumped. For this, which is. This. Is the exact kind of nerdy topic that I think people listening to on this show. So. I feel you're a perfect fit for it. Good. Good. Yeah. It's a good day for it. I'm sure you saw on the interwebs that I was out there for the the Atlas Rollout to pad on I met my peach. You know gig nervous excitement right now. So it's a great time to talk about this kind of stuff. Yeah. There was the one video is that you tweeted out of you in the background of an interview walking around out near the pad, and it felt exactly like I would find myself randomly stumbling into an interview of the NASA administrator, the head of you'll you'LL A. Top scientists at NASA? Right? Fantastic. Moment there too. That is now captured on film for all of. Lincoln the show, it's worth a watch. Okay. Great for nothing else other than toy Bruno's epic mustache. Right, right at the I, I haven't seen it live so. Very, cool to see. So. Let's start off with some of your background and how you ended up at actually, you know what? Before we get there? Can you demystify NASA launch services a bit I think people probably see the name around. So before we end up to be talk about how you ended up there I would love to demystify what they launch services program is at. NASA, if you can give us a rundown on that. Sure, so feel free to interrupt and stop me if I'm if I'm blather on too long, but I, think there's a lot of ways to describe it. I've heard a lot of difference sort of metaphor is one of them is saying you know, hey, we're. We're Nastase insurance policy when it comes to launch. So that's one way to get it another way to look at it. Just you know we are Nastase people who know about commercial rockets. So we just provide a lot of insight and. UNDERSTANDING NASA teams who get involved with these commercial vehicles. So there's a really interesting history of you know in A. Not A. History expert, but you know there's a whole history of the way that NASA spacecraft got linked up with commercial vehicles in the past. But about twenty one years ago, the launch services program got started here at Kennedy Space Center where they really consolidated all the different efforts were happening around the country. So we had people who were focusing on analysis people who were doing more of the contracts side of things, people who were doing hardware, mechanical electrical avionics, types of things, and we really handle all of that now. So for so you know saying NASA has a spacecraft there. You know they know that somewhere down the pipeline, we're ready to launch this Mars rover. They say, okay, we're ready to start. Picking a rocket. They come to us, and we help them develop a requirement documents to send out through the launch vehicle providers, potential providers, and those those bidders make proposals. We evaluate those proposals in figure out which rocket is the best fit for a given mission and man You know we facilitate that procurement process in the routes normally about three years before launch refer about those three years we. Disarm are part of the integration team to. Put those pieces together so. I guess, my group specifically is a part of the analysis division where we Throw all the math at all the problems to make sure that things go the way they're supposed to go. There is the groups that analyze. You know structural loans and vibrations thermal, and all those kind of things electric. Like M. I. Electromechanical or of magnetism. Interference and things like bats My branch does or the flight dynamics branch. So we do software like controls in flight design. So I'm in the fight designed group and we analyze trajectories. So sometimes we are, you know just providing performance quotes to say, hey, based on our inside this vehicle has a certain amount of performance to a certain orbit or were actually doing an analysis to help the spacecraft anticipate when they're gonNA answer some light or or something like that. We stand up our own independent models in all of that is really just to support to support the NASA. Spacecraft. It's an awesome like you know it's a point where everything comes together between the science missions, the launch providers that are out there, and all of the other requirements that the mission entails. It's it's a really interesting spot as somebody who's a nerd about launch vehicles. It's like my ideal location because you get just the science emissions to be fun and interesting, but a lot of nerdiness about the launch vehicles themselves. So. It's cool and I like I like the way that you were talking about somebody historical stuff I want to dive into some of that, not only just historical stuff, but the actual interaction with those different ends. Of the process. But so let's talk a bit about how you ended up at launch services program. What was your path? To this group at Kennedy Space, Center. Sure. So I've been kind of an athlete since I was a little kid always wanted to be astronaut and everything like that. I was I was always interested in. You know the Science I. Remember my parents. Got Me this this huge binder of I. Think it was. It was more than one of these huge binder books with information about the planet. So they just had all these cool pictures and stuff. So I was always interested in that kind of stuff. So going into college. Is studied aerospace engineering because it had the word space in, it's not figure. That was right for me. Literally, that's that's what happened. I didn't really. Nothing else went into that decision was like, yeah, of course, this is the right major. So I got my bachelors and then I had a really cool internship. During Meyer is after my third year of Undergrad where I worked at J. P. JPL for I. Honor. And do some early thousands of mechanical engineering group and Super? Early. Studies. For the Europa. Actually Lander concepts Obviously, that's not the one that they're rolling with right now, they're working on the aerobic clippers. Yes. Yes. Yes. You re right now. They're gonNA, right now. To, work on some of that and I also to meet a bunch of the trajectory people because I had just taken my first orbit mechanics class. And I was like, Oh, I love this stuff. This is really cool. So that was when I really started to put myself on this path to. Pursue this type of work. So I went to Grad school to get a masters degree at University of Michigan. And they have an aerospace engineering program and a space systems engineering program. That's a little bit more project based. Saw, I get to work on some cubesats also in the early phases on the analytical end. So it was things like you know modeling the power that they would give from a solar cell if it was angled it a certain way on the set. So there's some stuff like that. Graduated, and I got a job at Northrop Grumman. Of Maryland's and I was working on. Some orbital analysis for D., M.? S. P., which is A. Defense. The Defense Meteorological Satellite Program? So that's the. Sun Synchronous. Approximately. Polar Orbiting Satellite Constellation where I was doing some since her analysis for that. But I really had my eye on written for NASA. So I was just. Looking out for whatever opportunities came up. With, the right job came up on USA jobs I applied in. This was the one that the one that bids I came down here about three and a half years ago. And is seems like you have a nice outside desk which I find totally crazy in the summer in Florida but. I'm you're taking. You're making the best of life out on. Space, coast. Will Not Anymore I I. Know I've just last week. I, moved it inside because it. It's too hot. But it was really nice a few months ago when I first moved it out there. I'm shocked, he made it this far into July like that as somebody who spent some time in Orlando It's painful heat at this time of the year. So I- props for surviving that long outside. I was pretty stubborn and obviously there's a lot of things going on you I just I just didn't want to spend I'm spending lot more signed in my apartment than I ever thought I would so just want it doesn't to switch things up a little bit. I've got a Nice Nice foldable desk here by window now. So. So for the. Let's start maybe from the payload end and the way that you integrate with the mission teams themselves You've mentioned that you'd get started with that team pretty early on in the process, you know years ahead of launch to to work with them on a lot of different phases of their flight. So what is the the team integration look like? Is it a handful of people from launch services program that integrates with the medical team or is it a pretty wide cross section of L. S. P. Three Life Cycle? Yeah. That's a good question. So it really depends on win in the mission. So for doing the sort of advance mission support, you know everything before we've procured the rocket, it may be sort of Have handpicked or just sort of Cherry pick like somebody will just come and ask you a question and say, Hey, I'm you know, I, guess a mission manager or an integration engineer or somebody will say, Hey, I'm working with people edge AP L. This mission they need to know about the performance with this inclination this altitude, you know, what can you tell me about this? So it'll be kind of a one off discussion. where it's really just a matter of being being the discipline expert for your discipline and being somebody who a person can come and ask you that question. But once we procure the vehicle, we actually start working with the launch vehicle. It is a, you know an established team where each at least each analytical discipline is going to have. Probably one person may be two people depending on the workload who will be the primaries for those missions and we have you know will be called in that. I guess put together the mission integration team. So it's a group Erica. KFC. There was a group at the launch legal. Company in there's people on the spacecraft side who? who worked with directly with the launch integration. So we have regular telecom where we talked about things, we have specific working groups. Or particular disciplines. So. Yeah. Does that answer the question? It does, yeah. I think one of my main questions and this might tie back to some of the historical way that Lsp came about is, why is this role something that NASA has grouped as one program that this integrates with the rest of the missions? Rather than having somebody like yourself, you know on the Lucy Team are on the Mars Twenty, twenty team I'm sure those people exist as well. But what is it that makes grouping all together in a? Certified Program beneficial to NASA as a whole. Right you know I i. wish I knew more about. What exactly made those decisions back in the nineties. There's probably others who get get answer that question a little bit better. But in terms of just the benefited provides to NASA, you know it's it's helpful to have people who are tracking these things day. By Day, we're working with the launch vehicle companies. Now, only while we're doing these missions, but really in everything that we're doing we we just maintain that insight. So for example, we do post-flight data analysis for every flight that they do. Because if if there's some pattern that creeps up, you know something is normally performing less You know like it's not performing up to expectations. We need to know that if we're about to you know, spends taxpayer dollars to buy this rocket for this for this vehicle. So we. Are, really, just buying down that risk who are reducing the risk that comes with procuring these launch vehicle services. Union. It exists outside of any given mission, right? So if some mission either is delayed or has its funding cut or the plans change that doesn't change the fact that you still need to be following the industry in the launch vehicles themselves So I guess it protects. Ebbs and flows of funding or any given. You know Mars is really hot right now, but maybe we'll be again someday. But you can work with any of that. Right and. Yet I think. It really depends on just kind of win like what the schedule is life for when you're doing more work verses forward were just sort of insight related. So obviously you know. With. The faith eggs in their startling launches, you know where we're following those all the time. So we have a group of people in my fight designed group, who just you know we rotate who does the post-flight for each starling blocks, but that's a lot of work GRANDPA. We automate tools, and yeah, we make it easier zoo to be able to process the data, but it's also just right now is a very interesting time in. The current day is one of the reasons why it is important to have a program, like lsp, because the people industry changing a lot, you know space x blue origin Vogue is on the is on the way as well. So things are changing in NASA needs to be aware of what's going on. So but the superior for. So on the launch provider side I, take it like you're saying, there's a lot of work that goes into mission agnostic looks into the launch service providers. I think LP is the one that certifies vehicles for the various classes of missions as well. Can you talk a little bit about that kind of general insight into the vehicles and what things you know you're paying attention to win any given launch service provider comes online or are talking about a new vehicle? You know we've mentioned. We've got a lot on the precipice here. So what sort of things and how how in the flow do you start looking towards Vulcan or or new? Glenn, and things like that. Rice Yeah, I mean, we I guess this is where my my limited knowledge. Will will come in just because I'm sort of in the analysis. World's mainly focus on the analytical side of things, and there's a lot of pieces did that I don't necessarily touch. But You know we have people who are involved very early on like when when the launch, when there are companies that are brand new. And they are at the PDR phase. The preliminary design says of their their vehicle and we know were providing. We made. Have some relationship with that company where we can provide support to? Help them. Do what they're trying to do because we WANNA make sure that Marshall Industry is thriving right. But we want that competition to be there. We want these companies to do well. So there's a variety of options that obviously drives the down for NASA So we're really there very early on in terms of the Beagle developments, and we do a lot of different things depending on what the what the processes are for that long service provider. So you know there's someone like you la who know at least the people I work with. Working with a lot of people that you allay for all of the twenty years and You know we may be. Tracking just the changes that they're making between atlas and. At was at Bogan of we may be. Doing, IV words independent verification validation work to. Make sure that their analysis tools are. Up to par I, guess we're providing that independent looks. which is something that all these companies look for. A. Be. Aerospace course somebody else. They're gonNA want that independent look to support the work that they're doing. So. Yeah. We're we're. Pretty, involved. Early on all the way until the point where we survive vehicle in selected for you the mission. So. Then once you make it through, you know you've matched a payload to a particular vehicle provider. Are you sort of a third party in that discussion between what the payload needs and what the provider needs or are you? WHO's calling the shots there, and what kind of role does L. S. P. play as you're in a phase where you're leading up to the launch in the last couple of months or years before launch, once you're really getting things ready to roll out to the launch pad. Yeah. It's. Because you ask the question is that. It makes sense why this is something that needs to be demystified because it it. It's almost mission by mission like there's different relationships with different people You know sometimes there's Aspects of the spacecraft design that are fixed in that. May drive a decision that the launch vehicle has to make or or something like that. So S. P. May come in and be part of of pushing the launch service provider to do something different than their normal process because we need it for this mission. So I mean obviously NASA, we're not their only customer, they have a lot of other customers. Who? Quite, frankly I guess I, say this respectfully possible, you know they may not be as needy as because they may have You know that's why we call. LSP. Insurance policy because you know we're not. We're not insuring our however many million billion dollars. The Rover is we're not insuring that. So we need to get off the ground safely. Get into orbit safely. So we may have more needs than their other customers so we may have to push them but it really is a collaborative effort like it's. I. Think a third party may be a good way to describe it because. You know sometimes, we are just sort of filtering the information that the spacecraft is trying to spend sin to the launch vehicle. Definitely, in the analysis world's is they may ask questions about Oh. How long is this? Burn? Be Your Long? Ill, they may have questions about the trajectory. may not be in line with. What the launch vehicle contractors doing at the time. So that's where we can set up our models and we can say, hey, based on our insight. This is what things are gonNA. Look like Again, it. It depends on kind of disciplined. You're talking about, but we We really are just you know one of this team of three entities that are all working towards the same goal of. Getting spacecraft's safely into space. Let's talk about some of the stuff that you're working on today got like you're saying you're out watching an atlas five out of the had. You worked on Mars twenty quite a bit. It's the hot mission right now. So what have you been up to on that mission and you know we're two days away from launch. If the schedule holds this point what can we look forward to on Thursday? Yes really exciting mission I. Mean. We're we're going tomorrow is it is really awesome net up. You mentioned earlier that you are the sort of Geek, with the face graft and the launch vehicle growing up in going through my education. I was really only on the spacecraft side. I didn't know anything about the launch vehicles at all until I got this job. So, there was kind of a learning curve sores just know understanding how you know what these launch trajectories look like in everything, but I join this mission. Almost, two years ago. I. Guess. It was in the fall twenty eighteen when I became the backup analyst for this mission and it's really just involves You know like I said being that's Being a member of the team to make sure things are are working I. Mean Jpl has models where they need to develop their targets to figure out exactly. You know the speed in the direction that the spacecraft needs to be going at a particular time in order to to get to Mars based on their, you know their space for and everything like that. So they have their models of the launch that they put together. And we sort of facilitate the process to make sure that that's in line with what the launch service with with what you L. A. is doing with their trajectory size. So you know we we set up models and we. Will Process the data that we receive. And do a lot of checks things that we're doing our checks between LAPD UCLA J. P. L. to make sure that everybody's getting the same numbers meeting, making sure that everything's meeting all the requirements and it's it's interesting for this mission because we're just working with a lot of data is the launch period opened on July seventeenth, and we had trajectories for about two our windows Maximum. Two hour window of a little bit less from the seventeenth up through a few days from now in the last ten or so days of the launch had. You know increasingly smaller launch periods, but that made the we had hundreds of directories to analyze five at five minute increments. So So sometimes, it's just been putting together scrimps to run the data and You know check all of the requirements. Simulate the trajectory against put together a pretty cool animation, the trajectory. For Our Launch Vehicle Readiness Review which was a couple of months ago votes a convinced man management that everything was on track. Lots of lots of really cool stuff. Lots of math really. Yeah. The the launch window stuff that's been really interesting to watch because there were a couple of slips, but there was a lot of news reports of. Oh. Actually, we can launch up to I, forget the specific dates, but it was like August tenth and fifteenth, and then I saw one article that at least said, we might be able to stretch to the seventeenth. And a lot of that sounded like once the final numbers came in on the payload mass and. The. Actual mass of Centaur. I read that they way every individual one because that changes a little bit So is that you know people within your team, maybe not you personally, but within the launch services program that rerunning all of the data based on what's coming back, and that's why you're able to manage the launch window. So close you know the fact that didn't know precisely when the launch window would close months ago, but we did in the last couple of weeks, is that up to your people like you? I mean. Definitely. Not Me individually, but I guess I'm just one one of the flies on the wall who may in and say one thing But yeah, there's that's exactly the kind of stuff that we were doing. So that's one of the interesting sort of nuances about this kind of work is that different technical disciplines look at different information. So throughout most of the launch integration time Or that life cycle, we just work with the sort of not to exceed numbers with NT numbers. So we say, okay, the Centaur Max wait is this spacecraft Max wait is this and we run our models based on that because. Of the day we need to know that the vehicle can handle the worst case. Performance scenario but then yeah, once they actually put together the vehicle in a way everything Yeah, I think I think you're right I. Don't remember exactly that the sense are came in a little lights or actually I know I know the spacecraft came in a little light? As in March twenty, twenty group stage in everything which from what I know is maybe the most shocking piece of data in this conversation that a spacecraft light. I saw multiple emails. They said, they said, wait what? We need to figure out what they did. Write a duplicate that every mission from here on out, right? Exactly. But his interesting because that actually has you know you don't necessarily want to come in light because if you come into light, you may invalidate certain pieces of data. So the groups who do structural analysis and vibrations are his dynamic loads at the best way to describe that if you have a lighter. Lighter spacecraft, you're gonNA have higher loads. So you know even though it's totally fine from my side from trajectory performance inside other people to look at it as well. So that's sort of interesting piece where you know the performance group says Great. We have this window, but then another group may still be an NCAA Oh. Yeah. But on this day you're accelerations are too high. So this is not a viable launch. Exactly, like you said, we were tracking those things. We have that information and we basically tweets the results that we had We. Develops. Launch of Windows on each individual day that no stacked up to Igla launch period You know those were based on a certain amount of propellant merging, which were based on certain weights. So once we get those final ways, we can tweak it and. See what the final final results are. So I, WanNa look forward a little bit to some things that are coming up Nasr's obviously quite busy these days with plenty of different programs. Does L. S. P. have anything to do with the ISAS programs or the program. Is there any any like crossover there or are you more focused on the NASA science missions that are dealing with external launch providers? The latter were mainly focused on those things. I. think There's there's a relationship obviously because. Is S S, ls are both evolving launches. was launched in general. I. Think There's relationships seen people that. Marshall, who were working on S., l.? S.. And even you know with commercial crew or other pieces of ice. Or other other parts of the International. Space Station program. Were involved but were are focused are branded. Butter is really the though science missions. So which ones are you looking forward to? We've got tons announced asteroids in all sorts of interesting places of an exa decade, or so what are what are you working on in the near future once we get beyond Mars twenty twenty here. So my next mission in actually it's funny when I started I, saw me one other guy who got hired into my same branch and we were both given emission. Once we started to be are sort of our first project and he was working on the Parker solar probe mission which lost a couple of years ago. Awesome Mission Delta four heavy. You know really cool. One of those sort of flagship missions in an office starting with J.. P. S. two, which is a Noah earth-orbiting satellite which is GONNA launch in a couple of years and. I. Guess I'll be. I can be big enough to admit that I was a little upset because earth orbiting weather satellite just didn't sound as exciting as you know Parker, solar pro going the mission to touch the sun. So I was a little upset of then it turned out that the GPS has to mission is getting really interesting because we're paired with This were now paired with this mission lofted with is a stands for the low-earth orbiting flight test of an inflatable decelerating. Basically. This big six meter diameter inflatable heat shield is going to be packed into a canister under the spacecraft. So we're GONNA, launch, JP two separated into its orbit, and then do a couple of Want sort of Rian, reorienting barn, and then do a Deorbit burn inflate. That's that flight test, and then they're going to do a bunch of reentry science on their way in So it's going to be really interesting mission in. It's been really fun to sort of you know model. Those difference trajectories figure out with trade space looks like and how we can really make those pieces fit seattle. Definitely looking forward to that. I also love the lucy emissions, skills, I, mean, those are the those of the asteroid missions. Those are the. Deep Space, really interesting trajectories. There's there secondary's on the psyche mission as well. One of them that's going to go to Mars and then one that's going to go to I. Think another asteroid. So it's like, yeah, one mission one vehicle is going to send. Spacecrafts Mars, and then a couple of two asteroids, one to another asteroid. So pretty interesting things going on the lofted one is really interesting. I've been looking forward to that one for a while. Now, it's been talked about for a long time, and then it finally got slated for launch. That's that's not just a typical secondary payload hitches a ride. There are a lot of unique requirements to that How did that don't get matched up with GPS to? Is there any particular? Was it a more of a performance or orbital regime kind of matching or is there something specific about the mission that makes it a nice pair? Really, I really good way to put it on the news, an orbital regime saying. So we that's that's really what happened a couple of years ago. It was really by first project where I was. I was kind of the primary analysts were. We had a conversation with headquarters where we were talking about. The possibility of matching these these missions together and You know we had to put together our models we had to work with the team. At Langley, who's is putting together lofted. We had to talk with them about what their orbit requirements are, and we have to make that fit. The J.. B. S. to mission because Judy as to who is going to about at eight, hundred, twenty, five kilometers, circular orbit, and The Loft spacecraft has a specific. Entry flight. Path Angle bossidy requirement for when he comes in and due to the geometry. There are some things that are not possible. So we had to do some really interesting work, I. Put together a million models. To make some of that stuff word. So I think I was fortunate because we don't often do that. Sort of early concept study type of work. because. This is a really unique mission is not like a regular. RIDESHARE or secondary payload is just going to kind of go I, whatever orbit the primary is going on. So yeah, this was definitely a a pretty unique one. I'm excited to see a launch to. And then the others that you're talking about that? Are you know farther out missions? are those things that come along as as a byproduct of the mission design from the science team or is it something that you know once you've selected launch providers? You can say, okay, we have a certain amount of payload leftover. Let's find some people that also WANNA fly to the same location. How how does that work out? So that's actually an active sort of question in the thing that NASA working on. So I was actually able to attend this this rideshare workshop back in February was right before you know everything with covid really started to say. Is through three days of workshops. It was great. No, it absolutely was was pretty interesting to hear a lot from the designs mission director, just the scientists on what they're trying to do. So people were asking exactly that question. How do we? Take advantage of the access performance. We often have on these base for us That's another sort of interesting historical comes in with L.. S.. P. That I heard from some of my co workers who've been around for longer than I have ever mentioning that the Delta Two. was really kind sweet spot. In terms of performance. It works really well for a lot of our size of our missions in in the orbit requirements that we add that. NASA had That's why he was called the workhorse for NASA. So it's kind of a medium class. Vigo fit really well for us as a customer. But now we're flying on Atlas Five, Falcon Nine. is its own sort of smaller class book. It's normally these larger class vehicles. So we often end up having a lot of excess performance that we want to make sure that we're maximizing that and doing it in a way that is Meeting the needs of the science community. So early NASA science, mission, directorate as indeed they're going to do that. They're going to figure out. What mission is GonNa work best with which primary So seems like they are looking at the orbit requirements that we have even before a vehicle is selected. They, ask us what the sort of performance range may be knowing that. You know there could potentially be three bidding vehicles. So there could be a big swath of A potential of potential. Performance cents. And then they will direct us to include a rideshare for emission. Now. That's one good way to use excess performance. Another good way to use excess performance is to do totally counter intuitive things like fly polar out of Cape Canaveral, which I'm very excited about to watch their. It's slipped until August at this point, but SPACEX has one coming up cellcom. One be that's GONNA head. A very strange trajectory out of the Cape and do a Dogleg and you fly over Cuba again and not drop a stage on Cuba like happened sixty years ago or something like that. I don't know that. Being commercial launch. You probably haven't had much interaction with that. But I'm sure like you said, you're going to have some work to do after that one launches. Is, that something that the team's going to be watching? Do you have any thoughts on this kind of crazy trajectory that SPACEX is gonNA attempt again? I mean the waves, you it as exactly. You know how I think about it. I'm just I'm picturing the. It's just so different. I, mean I've seen of enforcing it to see about forty launches out here since I've since I've been here a few years ago and they all pretty much do the same thing. Just go. He's but this one is gonNA is GonNa go eastern. Then it's GonNa, hang right? Pretty Sharp, which is going to be really interesting to see I'm not sure how far down range it'll be, but I'm definitely excited to watch. Watch it and yes, it is really interesting from a performance perspective that do we have that type of capability in? It's actually It's it's kind of on brand based on the way that space x is working with us You know even for a couple of missions we have coming up. So we have a mission, it's going to equitorial orbit from the Cape. So they're gonNA, they're gonNA launch eased in. They're gonNA hang sharp left once they hit the equator that is on on can't remember the name division I answer he. Yes is. How the CO People's. Battle. down. With. A. You're probably right. I'M GONNA. Go. With it. So, there's that men in the impace emission that we have coming up. I'm not sure what year it launches. It was just awarded to to SPACEX. I think a few months. Ago Maybe six or seven months ago. That sounds hands and that is also GonNa go to approximately, I? Think. It's a son sacredness. You know. So polar orbit. From eastern range as well So I assume we won't be doing the post late for that for the south on Monday mission because our analyst who's leading pace, he's GonNa be. Diving in was based to understand how this is gonNA work so. You have to send me his name. Right. Yeah. Definitely can do I think the cool thing for you know the knock on effect of that. As I talked about in the past, this was announced is that it opens up polar trajectories for launch vehicles that currently don't have a launch site at Vandenberg or anywhere else like that. So you know pending how things on the defense of side. New. Glenn might not have a launch site out there, but it's still means that you know when you have future missions coming up are going sun synchronous. That could be an option if they're interested in the same trajectory so I'm following it more from that aspect that. It opens up. You know tools for you to play with in the future as as missions combat that that require it so. Quite excited for that I'm kind of bummed. I can't come down and see it but. I guess I'll make up my launch launch time next year. Once everything is out. We'll awesome Philip. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you want to plug any anywhere? People should find you on the Internet if they WANNA follow along with your work down at the Cape. Sure So people can follow me on twitter at flight master, fill its flight master fil without an e because that name is too long has too many characters. I couldn't get it all in there. muffin sharing things I, love taking time lapses, launches when Iraq and drive out to to the causeway to see him. So at some of the content that will put out there. And if they listen in time to this this'll becoming out Wednesday morning recording. This Tuesday afternoon. If they're listening in time, you will be appearing on my friend, Jake Robbins livestream for more twenty twenties launch. Thursday morning real early, eastern time You're going to come on talk a little bit about believe your during the coast phase of the mission. So yes, so you won't won't be too early for me. To get A, we get off at the beginning of the launch window. I'll be talking about eight twenty. AM's hoping to lift off seven, fifty, Easter. Awesome. Felt. Thank you so much again for joining me and hope to talk to you soon. Great thank you. Thanks again to fill up for coming on the show was a pleasure talking with him, and I learned a ton as has been the pattern with our recent guests. So it's a great time to have people like him on smart people. I can convince to hang out with me for a while, but could not do it without all of your help out there. There are four, hundred and thirty, five of US supporting this show every single month over at main engine. Engine Cutoff Dot com slash support. If you like what I've got going on here, you want to see more of it, head over there and joined the crew that crew includes thirty nine executive producers who produced this episode of main engine cutoff. Thanks to Brandon Matthew Simon Lauren, Melissa Chris. Pat Matt George, Brad Ryan Nadeem, Donald Lee Chris Warren Bob Russell John Maurice Joel Yawn Grant David Eunice Rob Tim. Dodd the astronaut Frank Julian and lars from Agile Space Tommy. Seven anonymous executive producers thank you all so much for your support. You make this thing possible, and we've had a lot of good feedback lately on the headlines show over at managing cutoff, dot com slash support, a lot of people discovering that and realizing that it is a full blown podcast as our friend Tyler said a couple of shows back. So head over there, if you want all the headlines in your feet every week with A. A lot of thoughts for me and stories that don't quite make it here. So for all of that, there's a lot of monologue in the back end of the show and in the front end as well. Don't forget to check out off dot space for the conversation with Gary. It end tomorrow. If you're listening this time on Wednesday don't forget the checkout youtubecom slash off nominal for the Mars twenty twenty launch stream with Jake. But until next time, thanks for listening. Thanks for your support and I will talk to you soon.
LIVE - Elon Musk's SpaceX Crashes Rocket + Life on Mars
"If you're listening to this, you obviously, like podcast and you probably like music to on Spotify, you can listen to all of that. And what place for free. You don't need a premium account. Spotify has a huge catalog podcasts on every topic including the one you're listening to right now. Uh Spotify, you can follow your favorite podcast. So you never miss an episode. Download episodes to listen to offline wherever you are easily share what you're listening to with your friends via Spotify integrations with social media platforms like Instagram. So just search for space news pot on the Spotify app or browse podcasts in your library, tab, and follow me. So you never miss an episode of the space news pod. Spotify is the world's leading music streaming service. And now it can be your go-to for podcasts too. Hello. Welcome back to the space news pod live. I'm your host will Wallin on this episode. Going to be discussing some SpaceX news. Coming from. But I know I that's me. It's echoing through my through my browsers. Can you hear it? It was my parents go peep. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the space news. Pod. Today SpaceX landed. So rockets yesterday actually didn't land, one of the rockets. Caught part of a rocket in a net. Of all things they cut it in. But that wasn't just a normal net. The met was attached to a boat. And the boat of raced to catch this part of the rocket those Cohen, basically rocket. And. Because it caught it that was the first time those first time they've ever done it. And because it was the first time they celebrate it, and of course, everybody else celebrated as well. The side boosters made it down perfectly safe, their dual landing pads each rocket landed on one of those landing peds. It's. Absolutely amazing. What technology has done for the rocket business? Other center stage was supposed to be landing on their drone ship. Didn't really happen last night. The loss it about two thirty AM eastern time. So, unfortunately, I was dead asleep. I didn't get to see the launch live. But I did get to see the video replay SpaceX is YouTube channel, and I got the press releases and things like that. So. The middle section centerstage crashed and burned outside of their drone ship. Kind of blew up a lot. That's just say that kind of blew up a lot. But they did catch the nose cone of the net. That's phenomenal. That's amazing. And the most important part is that they watched all of their cargo into the orbits that they're supposed to go to might sale, the department of defense things. There was some NASA stuff scienc- things up there. The late sale. I was sorry. We're not taking any calls quite yet. I was forget, the turn that off when I start sorry about that. But thank you for calling in. So that was the thing last night. Dad all happened. That is really good news light Sella's out there in space, Bill Nye, the science guy, I got an Email from the planetary society today, Bill Nye this guy is super excited about what has happened with light sale. Nasa? Set those missions up to space, of course, and they said, this lodge was a true partnership across government in industry and it marked it incredible. I for the US air force space and missile systems center, the NASA missions aboard the falcon heavy also benefited from strong collaborations with industry academia, and other government organizations. They launched the enhanced tendom beacon experiment, which is to NASA. Cubesats. Also, they did the deep space atomic clock. This is pretty cool. Deep-space atomic clock is a toaster oven sized instrument. In a commercial, satellite that was released into low earth orbit last night. At twelve fifty four. I was asleep. I just fell asleep. Twelve fifty four AM. It couldn't make it to two thirty. I wanted to watch the launch pad. I couldn't make it so twelve fifty four AM adjust fell asleep. I just missed that one unique. Atomic clock will test a new way. That's Pacific time. So eastern time I fell asleep. The unique atomic clock will test a new way for spacecraft to navigate in deep space technology can make GPS like navigation possible at the moon and Mars, so we can have some GPS going on up in space in the cosmos on other planets. Sounds pretty interesting to me. I want to let you know that I'm streaming also live periscope, and on YouTube right now you can go to my Twitter account at space news pod in my YouTube account, same thing space news pod to want to watch it there. Anytime any where also the next thing the green propellant infusion mission? It deployed twelve fifty seven AM three minutes after the deep space, Tom o'clock. Ended immediately began to power on GPS will test a new propulsion system that runs on a high-performance in nontoxic spacecraft. Fuel technology could help propel constellations of small satellites in n beyond low earth orbit. Within a day of the mission of the, of the initial mission of launch operators will check out the small spacecraft will make sure that everything's working because if something's weird they can't go on with their tests one to two to three weeks after launch mission. Operators ensure that propulsion system heaters of thrusters are operating as expected. So let me just break this down for a second. When you launch something into space, there's a lot that can go wrong. There's a lot of testing that you need to do in order. To get the things that you need done done to get the technology up and running, and to do the tests to make sure that it's fine. And it's not going to break eventually. So that's why it takes two to three weeks after the launch to. You know, make sure the some of the stuff works, they have to go through a ton of tests, a ton of bookwork, basically a ton of little steps in order to make sure that these propulsion systems, the heaters and the thrusters are operating as expected. During the first three months after launch of the green propellant infusion mission. They will demonstrate the performance of the spacecraft's. Thrusters GPA IM performs three lowering burns place. It in an elliptical orbit each time. GP IM gets closer to earth. One particular point in its orbit at throughout the mission. Secondary instruments aboard GP, measure space, weather, and test a system that continuously reports the spacecraft's position and velocity. Then about a year after launch, there's going to be some more stuff that happens with his Bishop because it's not just a quick. You know, Mancha said, lay get a couple of tests done, and then, you know, that's it a couple of weeks, a couple of months or whatever mission operators will come to final thruster burn to deplete the fuel tank a technical requirement for the end of the mission. Because when emission ends. This craft will burn up in the atmosphere, and they don't want extra propellant basically in the space craft, basically, they want to decommission it as much as possible. So they're going to burn off the rest of the fuel after twelve months in at about thirteen months after the launch the mission will completely end no more stuff that they have to do with it. So they can they can. Keep going, if they want they can change the mission of something really amazing happens. But usually they don't. Probably nine point nine nine nine nine nine nine nine ninety nine point nine percent of the time. They don't change the mission. But it's possible. So there's another mission from the space environment, testbeds, which is the US air force research laboratories, demonstration and scientific experiments. Holy cow. That's a lot of words what you guys think about this, the next time would you name something could you? Please make it easier to say it's all I'm asking NASA. That's all I'm asking air force for me. The guy that reports the news for you just name it something really quick. That's all I'm going to say about that. But they of course, they shorted out to DSM six but I can't just say DS X, because nobody knows what I'm talking about if I see them and. That's the less spare craft spacecraft to be released from the SpaceX rocket last night. The two three oh, four AM or six o'clock if he will eastern time. I was still dead asleep at six o'clock in the morning it on board the space, environmental testbeds. It's designed by GPO to measure spacecraft vibrations in four NASA experiments that make up the space environment SAT will study, how to better protect said, lights from space radiation by analyzing, the harsh environment of space near earth and testing various strategies to mitigate the impacts of that radiation. We are going to be sending people to the moon. In a couple of years in five years. These tests are super important. Because we need to know. Everything about radiation in between ourselves here on earth and the moon. And you know, the spacecraft that they'll be designing and developing engineering in the future. They need to be protected from these harmful radiation from the sun. And that means our astronauts will be. Protected from radiation as well. So three weeks after this launch S T turns on for checkout. Testing of all four experiments. Two months after launch anticipated start of scientific data collection. Two months after launches. They have to go through checks and balances make sure that everything works, right? Then they're going to start testing of all the four experiments. About twelve months after check in the mission ends that'll be the same thing. You know, they're going to deorbit it. It's to burn up in the atmosphere, but in all as teepee to delivered about two dozen satellites into three separate orbits above earth. Nastas Kennedy Space Center, engineers mentored, Florida, high school students who developed and built a cube set that launched on T P to. They said it was gratifying to see twenty four satellites launch at once space, weather instruments, science, cube stats cubesats will teach us how to better protect our valuable hardware, and astronauts, in space insights useful for upcoming artists program, and more. So that's the important part it there, these missions that they're sending out right now. They're going to protect astronauts, and space. Got to protect them from radiation. They're going to protect them from. You know. Little micro meteoroid 's that are going to be impacting and their space craft as they head out into space. That's what these missions are for just a bunch of little missions that make up the bigness of set of NASA of the artists program. And when NASA has a mission has prime mission of getting humans to the moon and if that mission does become successful. I really hope it does. Then, of course, these missions will all stack up everything that we learned from these little missions while stack up. They'll protect everybody that's on their way to the moon. Now, I also want to say if you have any questions if you have any comments just let me know, hit me up and chat because I'm here for you. And thank you for everybody on periscope this watching right now. Make sure to hit me up on chat comment on this thing and YouTube is well mixture to hit me up. I'm here for you. Now, I'm going to move on to something really, really cool. Magellan tv. They helped me out with the podcast, there sponsor of the podcast, and they are amazing. I was looking around for places to look to watch. I should say to watch documentaries, about space and science and tech humanity. And basically, you know, something like net flicks didn't really have what I wanted than have the deep dives into the actual science of the stuff. They might have one or two documentaries, about space or NASA, or something like that, or they might have a movie about it. But something I was it was really lacking was the hard science behind it in hard science made it compelling in fun to watch. So Jilin TV and myself hip partnered up to offer all of my listeners, two months for free of Magellan TV dot com. So if you go to magilla, TV dot com. Slash space news pod. Get two months for free. Check out all the documentaries on any device anywhere, anytime. No commercials. Check it out now. Magellan TV dot com slash space news pod. Hi everyone. I would've let you know about anchor dot FM. It's where I host by podcast in, I find that it's the easiest place to do that. And it gives you everything that you need in one place, for free, which you can start. Podcasting from your phone, or from your computer. You don't need special crazy equipment to start doing it. You can talk into your phone video, editing equipment that costs thousands of dollars to start a podcast, you can do it from anywhere in when you're done, recording your episode anchored at FM will distribute it. So it can be hard everywhere on Spotify. Apple podcast Google podcasts. Stitcher, every place podcasts can be heard in. You can make money with your podcast. It's pretty simple. There's no minimum listenership to start making money with anchor. So if you wanna make a little bit of money while having a cool podcast, while download the crap or go to anchor dot FM to get started. Did I watch all of the falcon heavy launch? I watched most of its long that it's four hours. All of it altogether is about four hours. But I, I watched launch, and I watched the landings and the not so great landing of the center core section that one was not very pretty, but it was light full in another way. It was catastrophic for the rocket rested. Peace center section. I think actually Elon Musk said something about rest in peace to the center section. He said rip center Ripa core or something like that on one of his tweets. Give me a little chuckle because he's just a normal genius. Meam guy that does happens to have a sweet rocket company. So. I watched most of it, and I watched the landings of the rockets that I watched the first deployments, and I was at that point, I was like, I watched a lot of this. Yeah. The that's all insulation. Know that's all the installation and. As far as I know, the white stuff, is that what you're talking about the kind of tumble weeded out of it. This nothing wrong with that. That's pretty normal. Yeah. I saw that too. And I was like, oh, I kind of had the setback for a second collect myself. Go it s just part of part of the process, because it's nothing weird is pretty normal said late deployments like that because there's stuff inside that, you know. Has to leak out and puts it gets really cold in space, so parts of the ship. It really cold and kind of float off into the distance. But yeah, everything was really cool. The landings. Oh, you know what? I saw man. You know what I saw today? I got to find this for you. I think you've really enjoyed this. There is a. Video. Let me find it for you. Of a guy that. Filmed the launch with a with a telescope. Is it? Whereas I found it. Today earlier in it's it's awesome. Video. He was really close. To the launch, but he wasn't close enough to, like, really. I it up. Let me find it for you, though. It's really, it's really neat and all other telescopic tracking masses. Spacex falcon heavy. Month's second. Let me get the link for you. Copy that link for you. And then I'll post it in chat, so everyone can see it. It's very cool. Sorry that's taking a little bit longer. Speaking of telescopes. How about the asteroid that was seen by telescope before blasted through the atmosphere. I've seen that one. When was this? Is this recently? I didn't get to see that one. Unfortunately. Yeah. Oh, it was recent. Okay. I'll check it out. I'll make sure to check it out for the show. So I can kind of. Report about and see what the heck was all about. I didn't get to see that one. Some of these things slip by me. I have a. From hawaii. Okay. Okay. I'll check it out. I love to do these shows because. I get I get to learn stuff, too, which is really cool like that. I wouldn't even know that was thing. I like to keep up on these kind of things. But there's just so much on that. I can't keep up with all of it. Now there's a. I got a media visory. For NASA, which is going to be happening June twenty seven Thursday, which is tomorrow at four o'clock PM eastern time. Nasa? Science live. It's a new announcement for a new solar system mission. I don't know what it is the host of the teleconference Bill be. Thomas. Zurbuchen bucci. So as the administrator of NASA science mission directorate, Laurie glaze director of NASA. Planetary science division crew neighbor lead program scientists for new frontiers, principal investigator of these selected mission. So I don't know anything. About this mission this coming up, but it says, NASA will announce a major new science mission to explore our solar system during the broadcast of NASA. Science live four o'clock eastern, Thursday, June twenty-seventh I got invited. So I'm going to be checking that out. I'll be calling in. I won't be visiting because that's pretty far away for, you know, for. Basically a mission announcement. It will be pretty cool, and it will be. Hopefully a mission to a moon of Saturn or Jupiter or I don't know. I'm not exactly sure what it'll be, but I'm gonna ask all the questions I can. So I might actually rebroadcast at as the broadcasting it. So we can talk about it, while it's happening. But I'm not sure if I can all have to ask them about that and see what the what the deal is. But, you know, this is my first real NASA call tomorrow. So, hopefully, I'll works well, and I. Don't sweat it. I'm okay with asking silly question here, and they're gonna make, of course, make my personalities be normal, because I listened to these NASA broadcast sometimes and the news reporters are really kind of. Kind of boring saying. Hello. This is John from data data space space news. Portal dot info. I would like to know why we are going to Pluto. Pretty boring stuff that's that they are not real people. A lot of really great people to be honest with you. They just want to be professional, and that's totally fine. I wanna be I wanna be invited back to these things. So what I call in tomorrow. I'll make sure to be as professional as possible. But also kind of put a spin on it. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do. I want I don't wanna do anything stupid and get kicked out. I don't plan on it, but. These things are pretty important, and I want to be invited to more of them. So probably going to be monotone tomorrow. So hopefully, I can get on the air in hopefully, my question gets asked and answered which would be really cool. So I don't know what this is about, but it's pretty big news. Fairly. It's got to be on. Their website Facebook live tube periscope in use dream. So should be deep space science is far as concert. It hopefully before hopefully, we send something. Maybe to Europa that would be really cool, if it's an announcement of new mission. Hopefully it's a, a life study mission for Europa or sell a disc or something like that. That'd be really interesting. But we don't get to know until they announce it. So the okay so this is like, background stuff. Basically, what I read to you is exactly what came in my Email. Like, here's this thing, we're going to announce here's what you have to do. You know, yadda yadda yadda. You gotta get all signed up and stuff. So I sent me an Email, and I said, hey, this is what I do. Of this. You know, I have a podcast and I'd like to be involved with this call, and they said cool. Sure, that was sent Senate at four o'clock. And I got it back an answer back at, like four thirty. So they're really quick about a very good about it. But I don't know anything that's going on. So the fact that I have no idea what's going on is kind of. It's kind of cool because I'm still in the dark. I'm still just like everybody else, but I also don't know what questions to ask. As a reporter I need to know what kind of questions to ask people before the actual event starts. I could ask something very broad like. Are we going to be looking for life with this mission? That would be a good would ask. Two new possible earth-like planets orbiting a star nearby. They keep finding these planets. And it's amazing. They're all over the place. I remember when. Those things were science fiction. You know, we watch a movie or TV show or something. And they've land on another planet someplace else planet b and c. Planet x. Yeah. And then you then you'd be like, oh, wow. There's other planets out there with other stuff. Isn't like us like Star Trek or whatever? And at the end of the day, those things, actually existed science fiction became science fact, we can't actually land on them, but we know that they're there, which is amazing. So. The fact that I don't know anything about this upcoming press conference, I think I'm going to have to have a broad question. I mean. Maybe. Maybe if we have if you have any ideas for a question a my by general question would be are we going to be searching for life with this experiment? That's my pretty general question, because that could cover a lot of bishops. We'll be we'll be will we be using technology in this experiment to discover life on other planets other worlds, I should say world, Sarah go? We will we be using technologies on this experiment? That will be able to discover life on other worlds there. I'm going to say I'm going to write it in script. So I don't freak out when I talked to. It doesn't ask all. A big deal. So I think that's probably asked that. And then they're gonna be like dude, listen, we just said, we're going to send a probe to the moon. Again, we're going to send a satellite around the moon. Now there's not gonna be any sort of life up there. Buddy. You're blacklisted you never come back. So, yeah, that, that would be pretty funny. You never get the invite again, buddy. There's a couple of things that I'd like to go over one over this one earlier today. I did a little quick podcast, but I kind of briefly touched on it space, I yell their original mission better sheet crash landed on the moon. That was the first lunar Lander from a private company. But they're not going to make another moon mission. There. She too is going to be different objectives. So people on Twitter were kind of freaking out about it. They were saying things like bear sheet their mission said this time, we will not go to the moon their sheets journey to the moon was already received as excess record-breaking journey. Instead, we will seek out another significant objective forbear. She to mortgage to come. So basically what they're saying. Hey, we already been to the moon. We wanna go someplace else, we've already proven we can get something to them. So why not? Why not just go someplace else? Go someplace else. Why don't you go to Mars? Is that what bear she too, is all about? And bear. She too, is going to the red planet. What will be the instruments? I reached out to space. I l nothing yet from those guys. Let me check this space dot com article for you to potentially earth. Like. Alien planets found around nearby star. Tica. Oh, yeah. Okay. I saw this one. Kinda sober. To sudden notice Tieger star, which is twelve point five light years from earth to look at awful lot like earth. And our neighbouring worlds, the researchers said to planets resemble the interplay of our solar system. They are only slightly heavier than earth, and are located in the so called habitable zone or water can be present in liquid form. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I saw that the other day very cool stuff now with announcements like this. You see there's always announcements of new planets like earth-like planets that. We kind of. Expect it to be something amazing. Right. Kind of expect it to be something huge and that there's earth-like planets with methane on them and oxygen and water and they're not a rocky planet. Bits been destroyed by the sun there in the habitable zone the Goldilocks zone, so to speak just perfect for humans to live on. If it's couple. You know, billion light years away. That's a pretty far distance. But this is twelve point five light years away. Not too far away, considering the massive space mass distance space in general of the universe is of the cosmos. But things like Pluto, write these little tiny planet twits little tiny objects of the clipper belt. We don't actually know. But they are we kind of have an idea. But when we send probes to them, they look completely different than what we thought they were Pluto. We thought for the longest time, which just a big hunk rock. Icy rock cold rock out in the middle of nowhere. We get pro p- to it. It's beautiful. It's got caller is little moon has a little thing orbiting it. What about these Exo planets that are twelve and a half light years away? We think right now they're in the habitable zone. They could have water on them. They could have possible life on them. And if we were to send a probe to these Exo planets, would we find? We barely. Know what's in our own solar system. So reaching out to these Exo planets that are millions of light years away. Tens of millions of light years away possibly or even a million layers, twelve point five light years away. That's hard to wrap your head around for a normal human being like myself. I'm just a normal person like you guys. I just love this. This is my passion for next cast an asteroid hit earth. Right after it was spotted by telescope. Holy cow. I'll have to check that one out for sure. So if you think about Exo planets, and you think about other sons. We can measure those things from our observatory from our scientists engineers with their smarty pants brains. They know how to do those things. I don't know how to do those things I know how to point a telescope. Jupiter. I know how to point a telescope at Saturn at bars in my backyard. I'm an amateur astronomer. I've also have had a passion for this for a very long time. What was the first planet you saw like with your telescope? Or with a telescope I should say. Because I know mine. Oh you use by. It's nice. Jupiter. Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. That was my first too. The funny thing is. I broke down and cried. In my in my driveway. Is about it was pretty late at night. I've never seen anything like that before in my life that I'm getting explain the scene to anybody out there. Who's never done this before. This is the feeling you get when you have your own telescope and you hear into the nothingness of the cosmos, you're looking up right now. You can see the stars. You can see the little twinkles of stars, and you see the solidity of the planets, which ones planet, you know, Schwantz stars because stars twinkle in the stars twinkle, because they're so far away in the atmosphere of the earth. Shimer's and make some. Shake twinkle. You look up. And you spot something that doesn't look like a star. It's a little bit different. Little bit more. Bright star and you need to point your telescope out. But you don't know how to do that. This is my own personal thing this what happened at a big big old telescope by first. Telescope was huge light bucket. Huge huge telescope. And I was pointing, I didn't know how to use the thing I just bought it off somebody for three hundred bucks. I was just I was new I was brain to all this. This telescope was a good deal for three hundred bucks. And I put it all together. The guy kinda showed me how to use it a little bit. He showed me, oh, we could probably see Jupiter in the middle of the day. And I kind of blew my mind that he would say that, that he would even say we could see Jupiter in the middle of the day when it was sunny outside. But we didn't get to because he couldn't find it the daylight. So I packed up the scope. Brought it back to my house. Set it up that night didn't see anything. Didn't I didn't know how to anything I looked at the moon a little bit. That was pretty amazing. But the moon is really bright because they didn't have filters. And then I was like, okay, I'm gonna go planet. Hunting, what can I look at? So I got an app for my phone star walk, by the way, that's a great app. If you wanna look up with a nice guy, actually know what you're looking at checkout star walk, awesome stuff. They are like spot on with really really cool visuals. And you get a lot of information if you tap on the planets. So I looked up this guy and I saw. Jupiter was this guy knows I could probably check that out. I could probably point my telescope over there. Look at it and see Jupiter. All of its wonder. No, not at all. That thing was hard to find. I couldn't find it for like three days. Hot did and hunted. Hunted. Couldn't figure it out. Like couldn't figure out my telescope. I didn't know if it was in focus. I didn't know anything about it. It was cold outside. It was becoming fall and about the fifth day in my driveway. On my very, very quiet street. I panned my telescope across the sky. Very slightly very slowly. I used a method where you pinpoint a couple stars in the new move a little bit of distance to the right or left, basically using the stars to navigate the sky. Slowly move my telescope over to the right as I did. Big blob blur zoom through my piece. I just saw something I didn't know what it was. But I knew I had to figure out what the hell that thing was. So I slowly slowly move my scope back in by inch centimeter-by-centimeter to the left to see if I could soom in see if I could get this thing in my piece. If I can see what this blob was. I had no idea what it was. And I found it. And the top of my scope. Was jupiter? The moment that I saw it. I had to take a deep breath. And I tried to focus the center of my scope. I knew that if I lost it, I probably wouldn't be able to get it again. It's moving, like those things are always moving to just so, you know, the planets are always moving. They're not still in the sky when you're zoomed in on them. It's hard to find them again. So I saw. I think it was more moons. The first day for the first thing when I got it centered in my scope. My eyes started watering. Because it's nothing like you've ever experienced in your life. For me. I'm passionate about this. When you explore that. By yourself. I was alone in the middle of the night. Nobody around. There's no noise at all. No cars. No people up. Nobody was awake. All the lights were off at every house. I was alone just myself in Jupiter. And it's for bones. Not sure, which would they were. I didn't check it afterwards. I, I was so taken aback by it. But the feeling that you get when you explore that it feels like you're the first person to ever see that. I discovered Jupiter for the first time. In this feeling of. Joy overwhelmed me and I stood in my driveway. Is teary I couldn't see Jupiter anymore because my eyes were so wet from tears and I had a wipe off the tears. In order to see Jupiter base. I didn't want it to go away. I stood out there from one thirty in the morning. Trying to find this thing until I finally found it until about three thirty four o'clock in the morning. And I was only gonna stay out for half an hour. Four o'clock in the morning rolls around. I didn't realize how late it was. I experienced it's an out of body experience. It's other worldly experience don't understand until you've done it. Lake. You're exactly right. You don't really get it through the renders the videos and documentaries. In the feeling that you get when you discover it, that's what it is. It's not about. Science at that point. It's not about. All the things you learned in a book. It's about the feeling you get when you discover something for the first time you feel like I felt like I was the first person to ever see this. Even though millions of people around the world have seen this million of time. So. The fact that it had that much of impact on my life, that I would continue pursuing this after doing that. It's it was mind-bending wasn't even my blowing it just changed my perception of life. From? Being on earth too. Understanding that we are just a tiny tiny piece of this puzzle. The fact that anybody can do this. You could go by telescope. Anytime you could go to frigging WalMart and buy binoculars. And you could look into the sky and you could see the craters of the moon in really good detail. Blake, there's got to be. There's gonna be voi- way more moments like that. Because saturn. Why saw Saturn? It was a similar experience. When I saw my first galaxy. The some Barreiro galaxy on accident. I wept like a little baby. I'm gonna live like one of those people, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna cry about something. I can handle my emotions. I'm not I'm not a tough guy. I'm not going to sit up here. You know, be big and buff and tough guy. Well, what I will tell you that it's life altering. There's something about seeing. Other. Says that exist that aren't this earth that art near you. Thousands of light years away. Things are. So far away. You can't comprehend it. And the things that are there, there's a plaque hole in the center of that galaxy. Is a black hole. The center of our galaxy. It's eating up. Everything around it. Siphoning it down. Into pinpoint. We don't know happens at that stuff. What happens to all of that mass, what happens to all the sons in all the planets in what was on those planets? To get sucked into a black hole. And those are the things that are in the galaxies that you get to see if you look at the night sky. It's absolutely incredible. If you've never been to a dark sky site. If you've never been to a place where there's no lights are out, you. Where it's completely pitch. Black. There's no words to explain that. There's a sense of serenity to sense of oneness is a sense of wonder showy. And just fulfillment, you'll never get. If you look up streetlights every night. It's imperative I believe, for humans to see the nice guy it to see what's out there to look up. Yeah. Like maybe there is something looking back at us. Maybe there's something up there that is just becoming. Aware that they are the only thing. I want to go to big bend in Texas to see the night sky and total darkness that would be amazing. I'd luckily have a nationally protected dark sky site, about forty five minutes, south of me in Pennsylvania. Near Coudersport Pennsylvania. It's called cherry springs. Cherry springs is great. It's about four miles up a mountain. Campground to have an observatory there, where actual is. It's like four domes that you can rent for the night and these domes you can put your telescope in camp in them. But it's protected for dark sky site. So you can't after nine o'clock at night. You can't run your car lights unless you leaving the park, you can't have a campfire. You can't have any of that stuff. It's protected. So basically, you can take your telescope down there anytime you want to any night, pull in turn off your car, and look up. You don't even have to have a telescope just go outside. You can just walk outside look up. After I get done with this podcast. I'm going to walk outside, and I'm going to look up in. I'm going to wonder what is up there? And. What are we going to discover next? Guessing about being here in Australia's being able to see the Milky Way. So clear and bright but America would have some fantastic spots. We do have fantastic spots. There's a lot of desert here. There's a lot of forests and a lot of open land. It's acceptable. In it's dark, there's a lot of places that aren't habit. But humans in America. I mean still around. But we don't live everywhere. Place where you can drive thirty miles and that's the car. Some mornings actually I live in the middle of a forest. The Northern Lights would be musing I live in the middle of a forest and I can literally drive some mornings or some nights, even if I go downtown tonight, I probably won't see another car. Because there's no four thousand people in my little town. It's great. It's amazing. It's the best place to do this. There's so much sky here. And the fact that I'm doing this for a living as a podcast, her, like every little bit counts from your support, like everything counts all the follows all the likes all the stars all this stuff counts. I'm living. I am live in the dream, I am not going to the night, that like this is I had a tough couple like four years like last four years. We're really, really tough. Didn't know what I was going to do with my career. My career sucked hated it. I was over it fifteen years in the same industry. I was a web developer. I still am. But I just take really small jobs just for the heck of it now. But I needed to figure out what I loved. And this is what I do. I love to. Help people get excited about science space, because I've always been passionate about it every single day of my life since I was a little kid the Apollo missions since the space, shuttle missions, all that stuff, very exciting to be very amazing that we can actually do that stuff. And the fact that we can see two black holes colliding. In the ripples of gravity from those black holes. Colliding. Hit the earth in. We can detect it. The fabric of space time is been jolted so hard that it bounces through our planet in our detectors. Can tell us that exists. We had an idea Stein had the idea that we're on a fabric space time, basically, we're if you put something I was like, if you put something in a trampoline on the trampoline, you put like a bowling ball, the middle of the trampoline. That's what. The universe. Like that's what gravity does. Books about astronomy. Are you talking hardcore strana me? Or are you talking like every day, kind of pick it up and put it down kind of strategy because new the grass Tyson has, let's see. What's, what's it called? I wanna make sure I get a right. Title, right? Astro-physics for people in a hurry. That's a really good one to be honest with you. Astrophysics for people in a hurry. It's on Amazon. I will link you right now. Get out kindle audio. I have the audio book. It's really great. I listened to sometimes that is a long URL. Yeah, that's. Yaro. That's a really great book, though. That was. Fabric of the cosmos. Check that out, who is this by Brian Greene. Get angry and do it. Yeah, Brian Greene's amazing straight up like anything. Brian Greene does amazing. Very cool. Very cool. Have to get that one. I, I have. Booker. Dr David warm flash is also pretty cool. He was on the podcasts let a while ago. I will send you a link to his book, which is pretty cool about. About the mood. We go in illustrated history, moon and illustrative history for ancient go. There we go. Cool. Dude co guy. Check that out. But that has, like, it's the history of everything me know about the bone. Not just like the moon landings not just like stuff. You dig out of the moon, not just moon rocks. But it's like how did humanity cigarette out that the moon is a thing. Like who figured it out, who figured out that it was an actual moon in, like a chunk of cheese? You know, those kind of things that we went to war is over the moon. We sent people to the Mon all that stuff is covered in that book as a really great book. The doctor has been on the podcast before, really cool guy like he's he has so much knowledge about the moon that I don't even know what to think when I talked to the guy, he does blows my mind and I want to have on the podcast again. So hopefully, we can get another one of these podcasts going with him sometime soon because. I'd really like to pick his brain about the new moon landing, and maybe the new era sheet to if we get some more information about that. That'd be really cool. Yeah. And I have to make sure that. He gets the plug is book. He didn't tell me that, but I want I want him to make a lot of money because he's a cool guy is like a super nice guy. So very knowledgeable. About the moon and about a lot of stuff to my keys doctor for a reason. You have a dark sky place. I'd like to visit and far northern started at the sky tire earthier the sky entire first time I've is it take telescope up their next time any suggestions for beginners telescope, actually, let me where is this just had a scope in mind? Where was it? I was just looking at the scope the other night. Beginners telescope. I can't remember where if I want, I closed that tab. There we go. This one is pretty good. For a beginning telescope. Let me get this to you two hundred dollars. Selous stran- are really great telescopes. That's what mine was. This is pretty good for a good beginner's telescope. Six inch. So it's not gonna give you views of the most amazing. Nebula and stuff like that. But you can get good views of the planets, and it's relatively inexpensive. I'm not sure what your budget is. But that's two hundred and twenty nine dollars. US. So that's a pretty good like starter scope, if you want to really get into this. But Ciller has a bunch of. Diffa bunch of beginners scopes. Let me check with one of them out for you because this is, you know, when people start talking about telescopes and. What you don't want to get something really small. You know, you don't want to get something that's like so small you won't be able to see anything because everybody wants to kind of see planets, right? Like everyone kind of wants to see Jupiter and Mars and things like that. So. There's good refractory. The power seeker. I think. Yeah. The power seekers not bad. This one's not bad. I'll be sending link to this then you can just kind of like look around. Check one so strong makes really great stuff. But the first scope. That one doesn't have. I don't think that went has a tripod. Yeah. I think it just comes with the scope, so you have to buy tripod separately stran- has. Has everything. So you can just go set it up, basically. And look at stuff. The first thing you should do is just pointed at the moon. Get a moon filter I that's important. Don't look at the Mon. Because I've done this don't look at the moon without a moon filter if anything, if anything us, like a piece of tissue or something over your eye piece. See that's cool to the power seeker. One fourteen. What that's like one hundred and something right? Yeah. About between one hundred hundred and fifty. Yeah. Yeah, that's it gets go. And it's a it's a good price for that scope. So, yeah, that's a good scope to start with Blake has got idea there. Check that one out too. But yeah, I would just say pointed at the moon figure out how to use you know because. Oh, yeah. There's planet filters. Moon filters nebula filters Eddie, any sort of gas. Right. So you can look in the nice guy, and you can see nebula, but that nebula has different gases so you can separate those gases. With the filters put on your telescope. So anybody out there that's going to be getting telescope? Don't go all out. Don't go all out and buy everything for right away. I'd say by moon filter. And like any planet filter that you can read up on that. You like I would say go for a Saturn Saturn's, beautiful thing to see. It's an amazing thing to see. It's another tear. Jerker Saturn's, one of those, like, okay, my life just changed again because it's beautiful and you get to see the rings and those things don't exist around the earth. But yeah. If you look at your telescope without a moon filter. For any long about a time. You will burn out your eyeball. It's really bright. You don't think the mood is really bright, but look through a telescope or even a pair of binoculars I will burn out. If you do for a long time that is bad as a son. But it's really think of the most blinding white light, you'll ever see any. Like how when you look at a light and then you look into darkness, you can still see that little circle or the little, little dot of light that you're just looking at. Of that. But brighter like the brightest you've ever seen. Plus, it's your whole lie. So I'll go blind for a little while. So. If you can't afford a filter for the moment. Get a piece of tissue. At least it put over your eye pace. Just diffuse some of that light a little bit. Do you have a camera for your telescope? No, I don't. I. Got to be. Honest with you. It's hard to get a mount for my scope, that's actually going to do anything. So I don't have one right now but I'm actually looking at to getting a new scope. So I can do Astro photography because I want to get into that field. And I think it would be amazing to be able to do podcasts from the field while I'm looking at these really insane things. Handle on traveling like how cool would that be because I plan on doing missions to Florida, but they send humans back to the. S falcon rocket in. November November fifteenth is the launch I believe that's their tentative launch date. So I'll be doing that. I have a gofundme be for it. Not coy up to par yet. The go fund me, it's just kind of like a placeholder probably should've updated that today. But whatever I'll do it tomorrow. So, yeah, that's gonna be happening in November. I think it's called. Let me see. Let me link it up. Real quick. Still needs a lot of information. So please don't. Please down. Think I'm holding out on you guys just haven't posted up yet have posted anything in their record a video to all that stuff. You know, make sure that it's proper and good before I actually like send it out to a bunch of people because right now, it's just I think it's how to like get to a rocket launcher whatever. So. It's funny at this point. But yeah, if you check that out, just, you know, thank you for checking it out. I don't expect anything. But I do I will be promoting it in the next, you know, next couple of episodes, probably. Just so I can start the ball rolling man because I'm on the list I'm on the NASA list. So I will be part of the process in the future. Of all these rocket launches. So that's cool. I also want us thank Magellan TV for all the support been really great helping me out a sponsoring the podcast. If you are interested in any sort of space, science, or tech. Movies, documentaries. They have fifteen hundred amazing documentaries on. Magellan TV. You go to Jalen TV dot com slash space news pod, and you can get your first two months for free. So just check it out. Go there, check it out. And then after that it's as low as four ninety nine per month and you can check it out on any. Any app any platform, smart TV compatible on your phones on tablets. There's no interruptions, no ads really high quality, HD ultra HD, four, K quality, new content all the time. I haven't even been able to keep up with so much stuff. So go to jail on TV dot com slash space news pod sign up because they help the tunnel so far awesome people to just awesome people to work with. So, yeah. Check those guys out. There's you know there's some more stuff coming up in the future for. I'm going to get into some stuff the musk tomorrow. Spacex Tesla's stuff gonna get into some stuff with other tesla competitors to so the tech part of this podcast. It's kind of rampant up a little bit Tesla's going to be doing something with batteries at all. Much guys know about tomorrow for now. I have to go to bed. It's about ten o'clock here. And this is been a really fun episode. I appreciate it. I appreciate all your guys. Follows if you like this podcast, please, give me a follow so you can check it out next time. And also, if you have any questions at all you could hit me up on Twitter anytime you want space news pod. Also Facebook space news pod, Instagram is space news pod than the number one. And I think that's about it for tonight. I appreciate everything you've done for me. And I will see you soon.
Liftoff 93: Budget Season
"From your friends really FM brought to you this week by euro and worse base. Let's is four nightly show where you don't have to be a rocket. Scientist understand the latest news about space and related subjects. My name is Steven hack, and I'm joined as always by my co-host. Jason snow. Oh, it's me. Well, there buddy, I was afraid I've always afraid that you're going to somebody else's name. And then I'm not going to be on the show anymore. That's very rude because I'm sitting right here. Yeah. Yeah. We have some bad news for you. Please come in and shut the door behind you, please. Yeah. Fired during a podcast, probably not the first time probably not the first time, but we have time for this nonsense. We don't have the preflight checklist is full. The topics are full. We got we got NASA budget stuff. We win saw a movie and also things are flying into space and coming back to earth. Just like there's lot's going on. So shall we begin prefect, which is our backer name for the preflight checklist. Let's do it you start with the commercial crew demo one flight. Yeah. Spacex demo one actually happened. Which means we are one step closer to having commercial crew really happen where American astronauts will lift off from an American space pad in a rocket Bill by American company, which would be those things some of those things have never happened before. And some of those things have not happened for a very. Long time because US access to space right now. Everybody's access to space outside of China. I guess is through the Soyuz. So space is crew dragon was launched without people in it. They did have a a mannequin named Ripley sitting in one of the chairs with lots of sensors and stuff because they want to test of what the what the jeez are everything that what a human would experience in that scenario. They also had a stuffed about like a plenty of planet earth. Yes. That was loosely tethered to one of the chairs, and they referred to it as the zero gravity indicator. And basically it was why don't we put something in the capsule little float? So that we can have video of thing floating and say look there in space that something adorable which is always a win super durable. It was it was kidnapped by the way, it is still on the space station. They didn't send it back in the capsule. When when this. Group comes back the current group. That's up there. They will bring it back with and probably bring it back to NASA or space x one of those late night launch. I watched it live because it was on like eleven forty or something PM, you presumably up the next morning and said, hey, he did it actually was in Chicago for work, and I woke up as like, oh, I wonder if that happened, and you know, looking at space Twitter's. Yes. Followed along several hours later, I did watch some highlights on YouTube, and you put this in here. You beat me to this, Google, doc. It felt strangely. Like normal SpaceX launch like it like kind of the same vibe to it. Yeah. I told Lauren I'm gonna stay up and watch the space launch. She's like, well, I'm not okay. Good. Right. Like, some of us will stay up till midnight to watch spaceships and others of us won't and those people don't listen to this podcast. I so I was really excited and it's like. Oh, you know, it's shot me inside. And this is going to be totally different. You know, this is the the crew dragon and all that. And the fact is having watched a dozen or more SpaceX launches at this point it other than the knowledge that this is where people are going to ride on this thing. It was a SpaceX launch. Right. Like, they counted down. I mean, the the TV broadcast they merged. There were people from NASA and SpaceX hosting together at all phases of this mission. Which was kind of funny to see people we see in sort of like NASA, TV videos, and people we see on the space x videos, and now they're all together kind of collaborating that was kinda fun. But otherwise like, yeah, SpaceX launch they had the cheering people in Hawthorne, and the rock went up and the I came back in the first age landed on the drone ship and the. You know, and the second stage was flying off into orbit and the crew dragon was deployed, and like that was you know, it was it was very much a usual. Spacex launch other than knowing what it means. Right. So launch it and said they dock this with the space station. It's not immediate has got to catch up to the station. And then for a while it's sort of flying behind and below it and the the check everything out, and then they do their approach and everything was successful. The docked station crew entered removed the Plessey friend and called them his own. They Dopp did him. I'm gonna go with not stolen adopted. That's nice kidnap kidnapped. They unloaded. The there was there was real cargo. They unloaded and loaded. It back up over the course of time. It was about day later that they docked and docking. So it's different process. It's fascinating about like with the Soyuz. News ones. Apparently, you know, they basically come close to the station, and they grab it with the robot arm the candidate arm, and they attach it, and this is a totally different procedure. Where crew dragon is able to dock itself automats adequately. And it's tach to a different docking port. It's actually where the space shuttle docked. And then they've attached funny story Steven actually as a little aside here. So that you have to have an adapter. It's like like getting a for your computer to get an adapter, right? Because the space shuttle adapter was built for the space shuttle, and what they did is they they built an adapter for this new standard that was agreed upon its international docking standard and right now, I think the only two spacecraft that are using it. Our crew dragon and the the Boeing star liner right for commercial crew. But theoretically, it could be a standard, and maybe they'll use it on the lunar gate. Way station, if they do that, this international docking standard. So they had to build an adapter that goes from the shuttle doc to this new docking standard, so they built one and they put it on SpaceX flight to the space station, and you remember what happened next. Blew up it. Yes. So the one that's there. Now, I have I've actually seen when I was part of the necessary thing for that space that they lost twenty fifteen. Oh, we have one on the rocket. And here's the other one we're building. So we have two of them. And turns out they needed a second. That's the one that's up there now, and that's what they to. So they did this automatic docking thing, which was pretty cool. It's it's very slow. Like if you wanted to get up at three in the morning and watch it it took several hours because it gets close. And then they did a bunch of tests where they were actually like radioing commands from the space station to it to get it to be closer. And then to give back off because this is all part of this sort of check out is can we the crew is incapacitated. Can we commanded? And you know, how do we make sure that all works safely, and they did all of that. It took a while before they got to the point where they did the soft capture. And then they get the little clamps that are little hooks that come out and they do the hard capture. And then they wait a little longer. And then they you know, they opened up the two hatches, and then they they have little masks on because they want to be sure that the air. And there hasn't been you know, that weird stuff hasn't come out and materials and made it toxic. And it's a long process, which is why I wanted to there's a YouTube channel called sign news. And I'm very impressed with whoever is behind that channel because they took like four hours of really boring for most of it live video of the docking and also the undocking, and and splashdown and in a very short amount of time after the undocking like when I got up that morning because that was at four in the morning, they didn't get up to that. There was a fifteen minute long video. I want to say that showed all the highlights of the entire thing. And I thought this is a great find because it was an appropriate. Like it was way too long for somebody who doesn't care about space. Right. But for me, it was like the perfect link because it was fifteen minutes, but it was all interesting stuff. F-? So I'll put a link to one of those in the in the show notes for this episode. But I was impressed by that. That was a it made it much more entertaining because it is a slow process to do anything in space, basically as an incredibly slow process. So thanks to the people who are making the cut down versions that are, you know, they have to watch the whole thing. And then they they send us the highlights. I appreciate that. That's a good use of YouTube. It is and the thing spice down in the Atlantic, which we spoke about an right? Apollo nine mission is something that has done in a really long time. The Pacific has been the prefers black down the -cation, but it did come down in the Atlantic. And there was some concern for SpaceX from Elon Musk. So I don't know how strong of a concern it was about during the re entry under parachuting. If the thing was gonna wobble any and. It actually watched that part live the the reentry and the parachute into the splashdown, and it all looked buttery smooth. I don't think they had any issues with that at all. So this is a a good Ford. Step for commercial crew. No doubt about it. Sounds like sounds like they are obviously gonna analyze all the data and look at the space craft and all the things they need to do to me to make sure that there isn't something there because this is a test flight, right? Whole ideas that you're analyzing all of this. But so far it sounds pretty good. And after the the splashdown and all of that, you know, they immediately started talking about how Breitenstein the NASA administrator, basically immediately said we're hoping to get people to the space station this year. Like that is that is you know, if all goes well now that this is back. There's this feeling like we can we can make this happen, which is not to say that there aren't beyond just checking out all the data and making sure that it's all good. There's more to do because there's actually another potential. Quite spectacular test that has to run that is I think June is what they're targeting now for this. And this is the next thing that needs to happen between now and giving the crude launch by the end of the year, and it's gonna take this existing capsule. The crew dragon that was just at the space station, and they're gonna put it on the top of falcon nine and they're going to launch it and at the moment of maximum dynamic pressure. So max q. They're going to do an inflight aboard. And the idea here is that's the they want confidence in the fact that if there's a problem at any point in the launch that they can pop the top off the rocket basically and get the astronauts back safely on the ground or anyway in the water, and so they're going to do that. So that's that's sort of the next launch event that will happen for commercial crew for for SpaceX commercial crew. And maybe for all commercial crew. I it seems like Boeing is falling behind, but that is cleared then basically they are on their way to being able to do a crude launch to the international space station. They first test flight the demo to by the end of the year. Inflight abort is really important as we learned just not that long ago with so us. Yeah. So he was had their their inflight abort where they had to the ballistic return and all that. And that was the to two well, the Astro Macau's Moniz Haganah veg, Ken, we're going to the and they ended up landing back in Kazakhstan. And it's funny to mention them because coming up in a couple of days, we record this. They're going to a different soya's mission. Went in the meantime, but and they're the ones who are at the I S right now, but they that crew along with Christina coke. Who's a third member of the crew that wasn't there on their on their last one where they had the aboard mission. They're going up in a couple of days on March fourteenth to the international space station. So that is the those those guys know the importance of being able to do a abort during a launch when something goes wrong. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it they would have been in trouble. Otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. Because they had you know, it didn't I guess one of the stages didn't didn't gauge properly from the previous stage or something like that the computer sought and just said this is it, and that's what SpaceX is going to do with their next thing is like make sure that all these aboard systems. They've done some inflow they've done some aboard test before. But I it sounds like this is the big one for them is this last implied poor test. So we have a lot of budget stuff to talk about. But this next story happened sort of before the the budget new cycle started and concerning the Europe clipper. So this came from NASA science mission directorate about the instruments of aboard the Europe clipper, and they're making some changes, aren't they? Yeah. It's so Thomas Brooklyn is the head of the science mission directorate at NASA. And they've got this instrument. That's on the euro clipper, which is a one of the things we talk about. And we'll talk about later like all the stuff that's going on in in space. Potentially in the next decade. And there's a lot. There's potentially the next decade could be pretty amazing in terms of all the different things going on. But there's not as much planetary, you know, being discussed planetary missions. And we've talked about that on this show before. One of the big ones is zero clipper, which we've talked about how there was a a congressman Charlie Culbertson in Houston who is on the budget committee in the house of representatives and made sure that he funded that that the final budgets that got passed always had funding for Europa missions. And it has gotten to the point where Europe a clipper is this mission. That's going to launch in the early part of the twenty twenties and go to Jupiter and analyze Europa because it's a potential place where there could be life because of the big liquid water oceans that are underneath its icy surface. That's great one of the things they wanted to do was they had this instrument called ice MAG, which of course, has an acronym, which is inter characterization of Europa using magnetized Matry. Sure. Right. And it was getting more and more expensive. And they basically put their put a Mark on it put their eye on it and said, we we to watch this because this is getting out of control. And if and if it's going to be too expensive, we we're going to just kill it. And that's what happened in the last week is that they basically said we're gonna kill this broken said, we're not going to do this instrument because it's it's out of control. It's going to be too expensive. And basically said let's find a cheaper simpler instrument that will measure. Or the magnetic fields. So they're going to go to a simple magnetometer. And it's an interesting idea because this is always one of these things we talked about that with with the James Webb space telescope to is like at what point are, you are you dealing with a sunk cost at what point are you thinking? Well, you know, I spent so much money on this that we should keep spending. And that's always a challenge with these space missions is do you? When do you say this is not working out? And I don't know enough about the history of ice MAG to to make a judgment there. But it sounds like like zoo broken and the the the science mission directorate have made a call like this is not going to work like this is going to end up. We think this is going to be way too expensive and keep escalating cost and we're not willing to do that. So we're going to we're gonna kill this instrument. So there are a bunch of other things actually potentially have been changed at Europa clipper as part of the the proposed budget from the administration, of course, Europa as a perfect example of how things that get proposed by the administration are not necessarily one ends up in the final budget because all the ropes stuff is basically got an added by the house under Culbertson. So you're clipper which could be like the flagship planetary sciences mission from the US in the next decade, undergoing some changes for sure. I wanted to bring up this story, I came across about a lunar samples from the later Apollo missions. So we all know that they came back with moon rocks and dust and all these samples, and it turns out that someone had the idea in the seventies to say, hey, look, let's keep some of these samples perfectly sealed uncontaminated for future generations to study with the thought being that the technology that they have turns out fifty years from then could be drastically bear than what we have here in the seventies. And if we preserve some of the stuff than future generations, can maybe learn more about the lunar surface than what we could gather today, which is an incredible piece of forethought. I think and a really interesting little chapter of Apollo that. I wasn't super familiar with. But turns out that NASA has selected nine teams to study these samples and they include rocks from Apollo fifteen sixteen and seventeen which have never been exposed to earth's atmosphere. So they were collected on the lunar surface and basically put into these big sample tubes that are completely sealed. Shut and they have been there ever since stored and watched over very carefully by NASA. And this now time to open them. So these nineteen are going to work on these different samples. One sample is actually the only core samples. This isn't just you know, scooping up from the surface, but actually getting under the surface little bit from what's believed to be a little bit of a landslide deposit. So potentially other types of material than in the other samples the only one like that and it was sealed for future use. And it's Rick was reading brought up a good point that. Apollo captured. A very limited sample set from the lunar surface. Right. They didn't. The the amount of moon left unexplored as massive compared to what the astronauts walked around on whether they collected from and even with the lunar Rover in later missions their scope as far as how far they could travel was really pretty limited and in the year since then we know a lot more about the lunar surface about rocks and minerals that are there that we have not collected. But it's it's this is kind of. A way to think about what we're gonna talk about next about future. Lunar exploration that there's going to be a lot more potentially sample returns and the material used from the moon in all sorts of ways, especially when you talk about industry and everything and this kind of feels like a bridge from the Apollo missions to the future. We're going to look at these samples and learn more and right on the cusp of potentially a huge growth of knowledge in this area. It's amazing to think that they are still samples that are basically untouched either frozen or in a vacuum container since in the nearly fifty years ago heart believe, and I did have that moment where I thought what you said about this being a bridge. Like what some point if I've got a can of moon rocks. That's on touched. They're going to start bringing back more room moon rocks. So it would be it would be silly to keep this can of moon rocks around and. Touched because. Well, no, we can't because when we get more because eventually there will be more. Like once you're once you're a little more convinced that there will be moon rocks and other samples returned in in the next decade. Then maybe it's a little bit easier to crack that thing. Open and use modern technology to analyze it. I think that's fair. Yeah. Including volatile which the volatile part is the most interesting part is the idea that since it's been kept this way, we may be able to detect things in it that that the moon rocks. That were just kind of like putting a bag or going to all the bottles kind of burn off. And that something in a vacuum container. We can we can see the stuff that's in place on the materials that are in place on the moon. But are not maybe in our other samples with modern tech school. That's story. I had not seen that. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah. You bet. All right. So let's get to the budget. But I do until about our first sponsor. Sure. Yes. But will the budget is very interesting. But before that, let me tell you something else that is interesting in it is. Zero Eero can let you build a wifi system perfectly tailored to your house. I know I've done that here. Stephen have you done that to a have done that. Yep. Yep. So we live in a high end with world, you need a lot of internet things. 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That's erode dot com slash lift off and the code liftoff. Thank you ero- for filling our houses with WI fi. And supporting liftoff and Oliver Latham. Budget-time jason. Oh, boy, everyone looks forward to. It's it's hard to believe that this event only last year you and I both attended. But hardly only been a year. Wow. Okay. So some high level stuff this is the propose administration budget for NASA. This is not been approved by congress, lots of things in here will change and thank you. And I both have some feelings about some things that may change as we work away through this. But this is sort of the starting point for the twenty twenty NASA budget looking at twenty one billion dollars. Once again, this is more than NASA itself requested from the administration. They ministration and say, oh, you really want? This number administration can impose its will on acid through these budgetary figures. Out of the twenty one billion roughly half is lunar focused under the I guess newly rebranded moon to Mars program. So I have linked this in the show notes. It's this fancy landing page of NASA talking about the next decade of work to get to the moon and then into the twenty thirties going to Mars. So this is another conceptualization of the same thing. We've been talking about forever on the show. You know? Yeah. Here Mike Pence or Jim Breitenstein talking about NASA. They they always phrase it as we're going to go back to the moon and then on to Mars go back to the moon as a part of learning about the things that are going to take tomorrow. That's that's the way that this is being pitched is not, you know, let's not bother going to Mars. We're gonna go to the moon instead, which is another way that people could phrase this. But they're like, no that's not what. What we're thinking? We're thinking we're gonna go to the moon first. And then using what we learned there tomorrow, so moon to Mars is there is there marketing slogan for this. Sure. So by twenty twenty eight this is what this budget and this plan says will be accomplished to Orion SOS test flights with five operational flights. That's a little more than eighteen months apart twelve eighteen months apart, which is kind of the cadence where we're hearing from NASA now about how often they will fly and SOS rocket the assembly of the lunar gateway is now listed in the mid twenty twenty s so a little bigger than it was freezing. We'll get to in a second fourteen commercial lunar logistics flights. Ten commercial lunar payload services flights a robotic lunar Rover landing and a demonstration of a reasonable lunar ascent vehicle and then finally capping it off a crude landing on the moon by twenty twenty eight. It's a lot of stuff. It's a lot of dozen there. That's pretty ambitious. It's a it's a it's a great list. Right. But it is a lot going on there. None of which we will see in the next what at least two plus years. Yeah. I mean out of this is the most visible. I think but this other stuff like the commercial side of it. Falcon heavy is already here and operational. Falcon heavy would be used for some of this. We can assume especially for the gateway. We've got a fly pretty big components. But yeah, I feel like this isn't quite we're not gonna be into this for another twenty four months or so. The lunar landing. Bit is interesting. There's several things going on here is one point five billion for a public private development for set reusable piloted lunar Lander. So unlike the Landers of the Apollo era, which were not reusable in any things very much English designed actually where couldn't deal with the atmosphere earth, very different approach here. And I think one that is better in our modern age have reasonable spacecraft. Yeah. I I would imagine that they wouldn't be reusable to earth. I would imagine that they would be reusable to gateway back. Yes. Yeah. Think you'd have a very lightweight thing that never needs to see an atmosphere, but instead of Apollo which the the descent stage that they left behind on the Lam. That this thing would be able to land. And then, you know, ascend all as part of one piece and go back up to gateway which when you think about it is a pretty cool idea that you could go back and forth multiple times. Basically, you've got the you got the car there that you can take down to the moon whenever you need to from the from the from the gateway station that instead of having to do this whole process to go to the moon and then land, and then come back home that you could park that vehicle at the gateway station, and and refuel, it may be and and reuse it that would be interesting now, there's like maintenance questions and stuff, which is also kind of fascinating do you maintain that thing around gateway and have do some like moon will or not move walks some VA's around gateway to make sure that it's all still working. Okay. How do you do that? That's a fascinating thing reusable Lander. But. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting idea definitely the budget. Also includes solar and propulsion modules for gateway and kind of getting gateway ready for astronauts visiting by twenty twenty four which is five years only five years away. Coming up quick. Yeah. It's really interesting. It's basically we've talked about it before. But it's the international space station project move to the moon, essentially, which we're going to build another with partners and Canada's already on board and his talk about like, a European module and all of that of launching these modules and the semblance them in lunar orbit and having a presence in lunar orbit, which is that stay that's quite a thing. That's that's quite a thing. They're national space station is in this budget as well though, so one point four five billion for ongoing operations. And this unlike previous budget documents does not mention an in date for station. So all that talk. We went through the last couple of years about, you know, commercial into these taking it over decommissioning it or turning into something new. That's budget seems leave that a little more open ended. And I still think there are a lot of questions around. What is the future and the end of life look for the international space station. But for now seems like it's going to be business as usual and lower orbit. I think nobody wants to turn the lights out on continuous human. Residency in space. The space station has had people in it since I think the year two thousand continuously. And I think there's nobody in a position of political authority that wants to be the one who is who is saying let's retreat, which is I feel like this is how you do it. This is how you shut down. The international space station is by building a moon station. Right. And then you're like, well, we're not in the either the ISS gets turned into something different. Or even if you do shut it down or take it apart. You're not retreating from space because you've got something else going on right now. There's not a lot else going on in terms of space programs outside of China suppose, which has got doing its own thing that isn't about the the ISS. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. So we'll see how that goes. You know, there there have been conversations about how long the station can last as ages. And as what happens if things start to break down that are not easily fixable orbit. But so far those have not transpired yet. Right. And is there a role in the assess as a spur space station if we also have a space station around the moon? I mean, depending on how it's envisioned it may be useful to have a transfer point essentially where the vehicles that you use to get back and forth between the moon and the earth are not the same vehicles that you use to get up from the earth to orbit like, it's it depends on how you do it you it could be structured in a way where the ISS is actually a useful place to load crew to take them from earth to the moon and reuse that spaceship as well. You gotta get fuel. That's a challenge. She's still gotta get fuel up there. But I don't know. It's it's an interesting question. But I do think fundamentally nobody wants to turn the lights out on the ISS when there's no real replacement for it or alternate to it. Yeah. I think you're right. So let's talk about some things that don't come out. So well in this budget NASA science divisions. Overall proposal calls for a six hundred million dollar cut. This is across a bunch of different programs and earth sciences divisions. But continued widdling away of this by this ministration. Just disappointing say the least. Our friend w I is back. Remember last year in the budget? There was a big push to postpone or even cancel or somehow. Sometimes how this happens is postponed so bad it is canceled. This budget. Does that again with the fine print of you? Don't get any funding until the James Webb is in service. So it puts pressure on NASA to finish that first before moving onto the the next telescope. I remember last year. There's a big outcry about this. I think they're already is again about this this particular cut. Yeah. It's it's it's one of the decayed Broussard priorities of the scientific community. It's a it's an important project. The administration doesn't wanna fund I think I think that the administration is basically saying you need to you need to get the James Webb. We're not gonna pay for two of these telescope project simultaneously. So you're just gonna have to delay this until you get the James Webb up, but it is an important instrument, and it's a high scientific priority. And as we saw last year in the end, congress would not. Would not take it, and it's a different congress now, but still congress would not would not accept this. That w I got put back in. So it may yet be saved. But once again, they're trying to kill it. Yeah. So speaking of James Webb and Europe clipper before both see slight increases again despite ongoing issues, but James Webb and the instrumentation changes with the clipper both of those missions are moving forward in this budget. So. There James Webb is just gonna happen. Eventually, I suppose to keep working on it. It also adds funds for the Mars sample return mission. So this is a several part mission where the Mars twenty twenty Rover would gather samples for a future return mission. And that's what this budget funds is that second stage of that were those samples come back to two part thing. It's been spoken about for a long time. And I think it's fantastic that it gets funded in this budget. Yeah. It's a it's a good sign. Yeah. Because March twenty twenty is going to gather the rocks. My neighbors. My neighbor's daughter actually was an intern JPL and worked on that project the sample return. But then you have to somebody get the samples and then launch them back to Mars orbit. And then go from Mars back to earth, which is a lot of steps. But they're continuing to push it. And I like the fact that Mars twenty twenty starting it out like they are they are going to collect samples. Yeah. We talk about moon moon rocks marris samples because all of the instruments. We have. There are great. But they're not the same as instruments. We have back on if we could get some samples, but that requires yes, you gotta pick it up you gonna fire rocket off the surface of Mars back to Mars orbit which we've never done and then back to earth, which we've never done. So it's a lot. It's a lot. But I think it's I think it's exciting. There is no money for the office of stem engagement, Josh again, again, which I find infuriating again. I just. This is one of those things, right? Where we have to remember NASA federal agency and its budget is dictated by politics and politicians, and I just can't stand behind that decision in any way. But moving on before having aneurysm. We need to talk about the LS, which means it's time for the S L S segment space launch system segment explaining geopolitics, mechanical systems, engineering achievements, news and trivia, I think at the song. Oh, man. I mean, it's sort of sat. Okay. I'll do. I'll segma-. That sums it up pretty. Pretty nice. So there's a lot going on here. And I think I've done my best. I did a lot of reading. And I think I've got all the details straight. So the budget makes changes to the SOS roadmaps unnecess- next big rocket. It was it has been designed from the beginning to have multiple blocks. So this was a rocket that was not going to to roll off the assembly line in its final form they were going to be several generations of this rocket each one more capable than the previous one both in terms of payload capability, but also reach as far as how how far we could get that payload away from earth, and these stages are called blocks had blocked one block one b and then block to buck one coming. I, and that's what we've been taught when we've been talking about the first SOS. The the EM one that uncrupulous Alesa Ryan mission. We're talking about a block one rocket the first version of it that is now slated for the early twenty twenties. So that's a little bit of slip and not surprising. There were stories leading up to the budget talking about that coming down the the way so early twenties now for that flight. The block one is more powerful than what's currently available, but not by a huge amount. So the block one can carry ninety five ninety five metric tons into low earth orbit. For comparison. The falcon heavy is about sixty four. So it is it can lift more than the falcon heavy, but you see there. You know, they're not. And the BF are we'll close that gap pretty much block one b was going to add what was called the exploration upper stage. So a second stage of the rocket that was going to increase its carrying capacity to hundred thirty metric tonnes, which is a lot of a lot more capability in terms of building things like the lunar gateway as far as outer solar system. Exploration. You can lift heavier spacecraft and move them more quickly than any other rocket belt is a big deal. The one b is really like where in my opinion was gonna come into its own and really stand apart from these commercial vehicles and give NASA. A more diverse set of tools and more diverse vehicles to choose from when planning missions. And here's where we get to the sad song news is that the expiration upper stay. Age is effectively on hold for the for an unknown amount of time the budget. Instead, I'm quoting from Lord gresh focuses on the program on the completion of the initial version of the ls and supporting a reliable an Orion annual flight cadence. So again, looking at twenty twenty eight moon to Mars thing trying to launch this thing in a block wing configuration at least once a year as missions require and to do that NASA. Feels like the expiration upper stages needs to be kicked down the road. Some. And it to me it raises a lot of questions about Esa lesson about the program. It puts commercial partners on way more even playing ground with the SOS when when Nassar's looking at what vehicle to us for future missions. Yes. And I wanted to mention specifically one of those changes that I- I- foreshadowed earlier is Europa clipper was legally attached at some point by some act of congress to launching on LS and in the budget proposal. They're proposing Europa clipper launch on a commercial rocket, which is basically it's falcon heavy, and that's that's a big change. Right. Because that's that's yet another reduction in what is being asked of the reasons for us to exist. Get a lot shorter without block one be coming online. Yeah. It was going to this is the direct to the moon. This is the this is the bigger than the Saturn five. Like, this is the the big one. And it's the reason that the LS that's the justification for the for a while. Now, as you know, one b is going to really change the game here. Yeah. Which is good because the broiler block one is the only slightly more has only more a little more lifting capacity than a couple other rockets that are out there. So why does this exist other than as we've said many times here other than as a political project that again, this is also an administration proposal, and you know, the Senator from Alabama wants them to build big rockets and Huntsville Joran that may they may not have a choice. Yeah. I think out of everything in this budget. This is the it's going to be changed the most I don't know if block one b will be put back in and something else gets taken out. But. I feel like they're going to be unhappy with this this time line change. Another factor here though to tobacco second talking about as the less against its commercial rivals estimated cost about a billion dollars per launch. The falcon heavy is like ninety million. And it's easier to absorb that cost. If this Ryan do something that no other rocket can do, but that margin is much smaller. If NASA just has a block one vehicle, and they don't have that additional capacity. And you know, I know I haven't been like the world's most strident SOS fan, but I've really struggled a view any of this in a good light. Again, I grew with you. I think congress is going to change this. But this does reflect to a degree the view of the administration and Nasr's administration. And that's that really says something powerful, I think about the future of this vehicle. Yeah. I think they're re between the lines here. There's the politics of this in terms of people. Eating to us senators wanting them to build rockets in their home states and things like that. I do think there that this administration, especially is really high on commercial crew and on commercial space in general and partnerships with commercial entities, and the idea that they could use U L A, and and Boeing and SpaceX and all these partners. And then they look at us a lesson. It's like this the old the old way this is the old school, and again a lot of money been spent. So there's the sunk cost question fallacy there. But you know, I think this administration, especially as a conservative Republican administration looks at this and says, why do we have a big government project to do something instead of working with commercial partners? So that because because, you know, implicit in that argument is that the commercial partners are going to be more efficient than a big government bureaucracy. And there's lots of reasons. Is way more complicated than that? And some of this has to do also with you know, what rockets are human rated and not in terms of safety. But but I could see people in the current administration especially looking at. I mean, it's not even a hard argument right to say, well, this a billion and this cost ninety million. There we go, right? Like, it's. So it's it's so stark contrast there. So I believe that they are really thinking, positively about commercial partnerships, especially given what they've done with space x and our continued to SpaceX and Boeing and other partners. And and so I think they've got some skepticism about this, and I would go so far as to say that vessel s hadn't had billions of dollars pumped into it already. It would be probably more severe of like just shutting it down. But, but I do think there is are on the on the prize in one level, which is that I think they feel more confident in block one b being able to take people to the moon or tomorrow's than they are the, you know, the the rocket that Ilan Musk's mocking up in Texas. Right. I think I think that there's a hedge here because they want that Mars exploration to happen. And they want that moon exploration to happen. And you know, if you're not confident that a commercial. Partner is going to be able to do it. Then maybe you you keep this up, but it's a very expensive hedge against companies that have had pretty good track records and would be happy to take your money in order to build you the thing that you want build all that spot on early. Do. I think this out of all of this will be the most interesting to watch moving forward. Oh, yeah. Congress gets their hands on this. And of course, the the larger budget is going to be fascinating because it's fascinating when it's the congress of the same party as the president. They still go back and forth about this stuff. And don't give last year's budget. Did not give the administration wanna want. It. Even though it was all Republicans. And now you've got one of the one of the houses of of has representatives in this case is possessed by the other party. So it's going to be the whole budget process is going to be much more fiercely contended and debated and all that it will be interesting to see where the space stuff is like sliding sliding in like through the back door. They're like how'd that work out because it's not going to be where the big arguments are going to be. So I think that sums up where the budget is. There's a ton of stuff in there. I feel like we've done. A pretty good job pulling the highlights, but there's a lot to it. And as as this thing grinds forward, we will. We'll stay in touch with it and see what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. All right as promised because there wasn't enough going on you and I both saw Apollo eleven. But before we get into our review until you about our second sponsor, this liftoff is brought to you by squarespace. Make your next move squarespace Illitch easily create a website for your next idea, and you can have that website parked a unique Demet name and using award winning templates. Maybe when create an online store, or maybe you need a portfolio to show off your work, or maybe you want to be like Jason and start writing a blog score spices. The all in one platform that lets you do just that there's nothing to install there's no patches to worry about. And they're no upgrades needed. You'll have to worry about becoming some sort of webs over Adleman because squarespace simply got it covered award winning twenty four seven customer support. If you need any help they allow you to quickly and easily grab unique Demet name at all those award templates or beautifully designed for you to show off your. Great ideas is a true story. Just this weekend. I helped a friend of mine he's got a new business, and he just need a simple little website to send people he's working with with some contact information and a little bit of copy about what this new company's going to do and something that I really like about square spaces. They have image search built in. So he needed some imagery based around this new company, and he didn't have any stock photos yet. And there were bunch of free ones available. You can just search right within the squarespace editor. And you can even purchase them through your squarespace account. If you need an image that has a price tag associated with one of those little things that make squarespace joy to use their plans start at just twelve dollars a month, but you can start a trial with no credit card required by going to squarespace dot com slash liftoff. We decide to sign up the offer code liftoff to get ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain and to show support for liftoff once again that squares. Base dot com. Us lift off and the lift off to get ten percent off your first purchase thank squarespace for their support of this show. Squarespace. Make your next move. Make your next website. Okay. Apollo eleven. We both saw it in. I max which. Yeah. Totally the way to see this movie. If if it's still showing around you an I max. It was incredible. So we spoke about this last episode. I think a little bit about this film. But it uses a lot of original, what's all original. But a lot of rare footage that hasn't really seen the light of day before and a lot of that was shot and like really large format back of the day. So it's really crisp and is beautiful looking footage. But I had missed in our previous conversation was Apollo eleven. Is unlike really any other Apollo documentary or even space document ever seen in that. There is no there's no backbone through the movie forward by narration. So there's not. We are interviewing gene Cernan about this thing. And then we cut to footage of gene Cernan doing that thing or we're talking to someone who worked in the in the firing room. And then we cut to footage of the launch. And it is all except for a few motion graphics, which I think have done really, well, it's all original like footage from the time and the footage and the audio tell the story there's not a threat of narration through it and. That seems nearly impossible to me because you think about the structure of these movies and Apollo eleven just bypasses all of it. I think it's a lot stronger for it. They're movies without narrators that I've seen that. But you're right that the there's usually a through line, and there's some interviews of things that it's what happened later, and there is nothing in this movie. Basically that isn't. In terms of the footage. They're using from nineteen sixty nine other than as you said, these sort of very simple, title overlays and very basic graphics that look like asteroids to me, it's still triangles and squares little lines. And yeah, actual asteroids the video game with very simple lines and all of that. And it's all from nineteen sixty nine and the music itself apparently was composed. It's a really great score entirely with instruments that were available in nineteen sixty nine. So it's got like militarize and other weird electric instruments from the sixties because he wanted to feel like a document from the from nineteen sixty-nine and even those graphics. So they have one showing how the command service module, separates and spins around and pulls the lunar module out of the upper stage. And while that's going on the audio under it is period. Audio talking about the maneuver rice, not someone coming in and breaking in and saying, oh, hey, this is how this worked. You're seeing how as they're talking about it. Yeah. It's it's mostly Walter Cronkite. There's a little I noticed a little Jules Bergman as well from ABC. But they've got some of that narration essentially that is from newscasters it's mostly not it's mostly Capcom and audio recorded on the various spacecraft or at mission control. So it's not just all radio either. There's stuff that's recorded in the room and various places and was put on a tape somewhere and was pulled out for this along with all this footage. Which was apparently there was like one some of the footage was. In a movie in nineteen seventy-one that nobody saw, and that's it, and we can get into it because their stuff in here that you have never seen about this. You think if there was anything that's been done to death. It's been Apollo eleven and not now it's been done to death. Now. Now they've because this is completely. There's just completely new stuff in here. Which is pretty amazing. Yeah. That film was called moonwalk one article about it in the show notes. It just didn't do anything. Hardly. No, nobody nobody refers to it. Now and says, well, you can find this footage in moonwalk one. Like, it just is has disappeared. But that's it. Like most of this footage has never been seen before. Like, literally, they were taking it out of the national archives and cleaning it up and scanning it in to make this thing. And a lot of it was seventy millimeter, basically, sixty five millimeters something like that. But it's like, it's huge. It's large format its way higher quality than what many movies are shot on. And and some of the footage, especially a prelaunch when they're getting their space suits and their role in the the Saturn five out to the pad is just spectacular on a big screen. And then for me, the audio was the other part of it is that this movie tries very hard to amp up the audio. And so it's rumbling. And and is very impressive. The music score really helps with that too. I will say there are few moments where it was very clear to me. And I think Stephen you, and I are broken for this now because we do podcasts that we do audio editing. There are few moments early on whether stuff like they're getting low loaded the Astro van or while they're putting on their space, suits and stuff where it was very clear to me that that was all a recreation of the sound that they didn't have sound from that. So like the moment that really broke it for me, this I love this movie. But forgive me, this is my big complaint about it. They load into the Astro van and you can hear every step. They take as they put their their little booties onto the back of their little boots onto the back of the Astro van. You can hear that go clunk clunk clunk, as there are people around and applause and all that like, that's no that was all made up like, and I almost would have. I personally I would have preferred a little more Verity there and just not had the sound. But I guess why I get why they did it because they want you completely engaged in this. You were there and the pictures are spectacular. But it did it took me out of it a little bit because I was like there's no way that that's real audio. This is fake audio and you can tell kind. Because their scenes where people are talking, and you can't hear them. But you can hear kind of rumbling in the background like other people are talking, and that's that's footage where they couldn't match the audio. Once they get into the the launch control is like that the launch control room is really like that. Once they get into mission control that all I'm not saying it goes away. It probably is still there. But it's invisible because they do a very good job of matching all this footage that they got with recordings from mission control where there's audio of the people talking on the loop. And they that's all matched. So that you're actually hearing them talk, which is pretty great. And was I cannot even imagine how much work that was to catalogue all of that material and get the moment where that guy says that thing and find the audio of it, and sink it up, but they did it. They did it there 'cause early on. I was like, you know, that rumble of the deep bass rumble as they rule it out to the pad. Was invented for this movie? Probably almost certainly, but it is spectacular and immersive. Yeah. This Rolling Stone. Article says they had twenty they unearthed twenty thousand hours of audio from mission control the. Yeah. The the human power to go through all of that and a catalog it because it's not just it's not. We when we research are Apollo we found some of this stuff, but we don't we're just kinda like scooping up. What's online, but like they recorded not just the Capcom like not just the radio, but they recorded the internal loops, and there's audio recordings made in these rooms, there's audio recordings on the spacecraft. So like at one point in Apollo eleven when they're behind the moon. I think when they're about to do their trans lunar injection. Maybe it might happen. Both times, you know, they're behind the moon. So they have to do this burn when they're out of touch with the earth. So there's no radio contact, but there's a recorder running in the spacecraft. And so we hear the astronauts, and we see some film that they're shooting when they're cut off from the rest of the world. And so there's lots of material that's not just the radio calls, and then they they apparently went through all of that. Which is it's a huge amount. Yeah. My my takeaway from especially that section was you know, you, and I we have seen except for moonwalk one. We've seen basically everything that's out there on this. There was so much of this. That was new to me. And I was so knows you go into these things. And he okay. This is kind of like a remix of what all these things have been. But I really think Apollo eleven stands apart from the other works because all of this time went into it to to find this stuff and to bring it back to life. You know to some of it to lie for the first time, and it really pays off one thing. I absolutely love. There are several scenes where filmmakers use a split screen effect. So this is mostly once the mission has started because the sixty five millimeter film. That's all here. Right. So like these beautiful shots of the outside of the Saturn. Five one looking up at the at the lawn service tower, and it's. It's a little like. Nauseating all much as such high details like you're standing under it. Whoa. Okay. Got feel like there, but moving to the space craft the quality goes down, and they to accommodate for that in certain scenes, they do a lot of split screen. But there's one where they're going around the room for calling the go Nogo, I think for trans lunar injection, and they basically every every person they call out they have a block of video of that person that actual human being who on the tapes has go they add them to this video mosaic. And I think it does a really nice job of surfacing, the work of so many people who we may have just heard their voice in a previous film, or if you listen to some of this archive footage like on Nasr's website, but the filmmakers found the footage of the of the person saying that and married the two and it. What this movie did for me, something that didn't expect made the Apollo program feel much bigger than these other films do often you just think about the Capcom and the astronauts, and maybe their backup crew, and like, you know? Mission directors. But you don't really get the sense of oh, there were hundreds of people in this room and other rooms were hundreds more people are doing things and this film surfaces. All that. And a way that I really felt refreshing. Yeah. It is at the end the there's that shot of them like the astronauts visiting the people like all the people who worked on the project that is makes that point really dramatically that this is this was an enormous effort. Yeah. I mean, this is the to me this this feels like it's the almost the definitive history documentary about Apollo eleven the mission. Right. It's not going to tell you. It's don't have the interviews. It's not going to reflect on how how took for them to get there. It is all about the the, you know, the days that the mission went on. But in that way, it is it drills down so deep it is definitive. It's so. Dramatic right. Like, obviously this place over many days. But it it takes you to the points of drama. It's like that YouTube channel I mentioned earlier like it makes it so you're watching you feel like you've gone on the whole mission as you when you are at the end of the film because it takes you from the start to the finish. And it takes you through all the really important moments. And the I wanted to mention the the part of it that blew me away the one bit of footage that I could not believe I was seeing like, okay, Neil Armstrong setting foot on the moon is arguably the most famous moment in human history. Like, it's up there. It's up there. It may be the the biggest single thing that people have ever done or a person has ever done and this movies like, oh, yeah. Here's a buzz Aldrin's view. You from inside the limb looking out the window as he steps off from his camera that nobody in fifty years has ever seen. Just like there it is. And that's what they show you is like you're in. You're in the land with buzz looking out the window watching Neil standing at the bottom rating back. Okay. I'm going to do this. And then stepping off and saying, you know, giant for man jailing for mankind or you know, the one small step for man one gently for mankind. Got it wrong. Oh, well, he got it wrong too. But like, it's we're in the lamb with and I thought to myself have I ever seen this before? And then I read the article it's like, no nobody seen it before. Nobody knows. They've never used that clip that was shot by Buzz Aldrin from inside when he stepped out. It's like it's amazing like there there are several other moments that were kind of like that. But that was the moment. I was like I cannot believe what I'm seeing here. It's incredible. And it's sort of. Amazing to me how much of this got. I don't know about lost. But sort of misplaced over the years. You know, the people were just, you know, people were tired of it like there was a lot of stuff that was done. And then it's gotta be like after a while. I off people probably assume that everything had been done and not everybody knew about this stuff. And you know, went what is the when is there a call for Apollo eleven nostalgia or history. And you know, and it turns out it's the fiftieth anniversary of Apollo eleven is win. This is this was finally finally the time. But it is it is mind boggling to think like those lunar samples that we talked about earlier that some of the stuff just sat there waiting to be rediscovered for almost fifty years. Go see it. Yes. Thumbs up from the liftoff cast. Maybe not personally. But it's good is not it is it is. I think it will keep people entertained. I was that was my trepidation of going into. It is like I'm going to sit here and watch for a couple of hours footage from Apollo eleven. Can't pause. It can't eat a sandwich while I could've brought a sandwich in with something. I'm like is it. I hope this is entertaining. It was super entertaining. Yeah. The hallway even a couple of hours, it's like ninety three minutes long or something. So if Lou by I don't even know how long it is. I assume all movies are two and a half hours long now. But it's it's it's really good. And I made a trek to an I max, but it's now playing regular theaters too. But it is I think it's worth seeing on the big screen with sound system. If you if you're thinking could I wait and watch this when it's just a doc on my TV, you could if you miss it in theaters you should. But if you get a chance, especially to see it on a big screen with the big sound. I would say do it because it is quite a fun experience. Yeah. I've really enjoyed it. I think that does it for this week. I think so live up to for our Apollo eleven episode, Stephen. Can't make any promises it will be. But it is coming up soon. But we have one more to do before. Then we do we do we do. Yeah. Apollo politician will be the end of may. So it's coming up. In the meantime, you can find a bunch of links of we spoke about including a whole bunch articles about the budget that go into a lot more detail them. We did you can find those at relay dot FM slash liftoff slash ninety three while you're there, you can check out a link to our blog where we post links things in between episodes that is there in the sidebar, and you can find us on Twitter, you can find Jason as j Snell. You can find me there as I s h till our next for Jason say goodbye, goodbye audios. Audios?