15 Episode results for "NASA Johnson Space"

Reach New Heights and Reveal the Unknown

Houston We Have a Podcast

47:36 min | 2 years ago

Reach New Heights and Reveal the Unknown

"Houston, we have a podcast, welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center episode sixty three reach new heights and reveal the unknown. I'm Gary Jordan w host today. So if your new show, we bring a NASA experts and talk about all the different parts of this space agency. And sometimes we get lucky enough to bring in some of our leaders here at NASA. So today we're talking with Jim Breitenstein and Mark Geier Mr Brian Stein is the thirteenth administrator of NASA sworn in an April twenty third twenty eighteen and Mr Geier is the twelfth director of the Johnson Space Center as of may twenty fifth twenty eighteen both very recent leaders. So a little bit about our administrator, Brian Stein's career in federal service began in the US navy flying the e, two c Hawkeye off the USS. ABRAHAM LINCOLN aircraft carrier. It was there. He flew combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan and crude more than nine thousand nine hundred flight hours and three hundred and thirty three carrier arrested landings. He later moved to the f. eighteen hornet and flew at the naval strike and air warfare center. The. Command to top gun after transitioning from active duty to the US navy, reserve Bronstein returned Tulsa Oklahoma to be the executive director of the Tulsa Erin Space Museum and planetarium, Brian Stein was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant Commander in two thousand twelve while flying missions in central and South America in support of America's war on drugs. Most recently, he transitioned to the one hundred thirty seven th special operations wing of the Oklahoma Air National Guard. Also in two thousand twelve, Brian Stein was elected to represent Oklahoma's first congressional district in the US house of representatives where he served on the Armed Services Committee and the science space and technology committee Geyer began his NASA career in nineteen ninety at NASA Johnson in the new business directorate he joined the international space station program in nineteen Ninety-four where he served a variety of roles until two thousand five, including chair of the space station, mission management team manager of the ISIS program integration office and NASA lead negotiator with Russia on space station requirements, plans and strategies from two thousand five to two thousand seven. Guyer served as deputy program manager of the constellation program. Before transitioning to manager of the Orion program position, he held until twenty fifteen under guys direction. Ryan was successfully tested in space in two thousand fourteen for the first time bringing NASA another step closer to sending astronauts to deep space destinations after supporting a Ryan guy or served as deputy center director at NASA Johnson until September twenty seventeen. In this role, he helped the center director managing broad range of human spaceflight activities, including the center's annual budget of approximately five point. One billion dollars from October twenty seventeen to may twenty eighteen Geyer served as the acting deputy associate administrator for technical for the human exploration and operations mission directorate at NASA headquarters in Washington. In this position, he was responsible for assisting the associated administrator in providing strategic direction for all aspects of Nasr's human spaceflight exploration missions. Born in Indianapolis, earned both his bachelor of science and massive science degrees and air. Now. Article and astronaut engineering from Purdue University in Indiana guy is now the director of NASA Johnson Space Center in this role guy or leads a workforce of approximately ten thousand civil servant and contractor employees at one of Nasr's largest installations in Houston, and the white sands test facility in Las Cruces New Mexico. Today I'm sitting down with are administered and Senate director to discuss this very exciting period were in for human spaceflight. We discussed NASA as a whole commercial crew, the commercialization of space and the mission and direction of America's space agency. So with no further delay, let's jump right ahead to our talk with NASA administrator, Jim Breitenstein, and director of the Johnson Space Center. Mark Geyer enjoy. County. Mark. We have. Jim and Mark. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. This is such an exciting day, but also just an exciting time for us here at the agency. So I appreciate you coming on today. Great to be here. So so just to sort of recap the events of today, we had vice President Mike Pence here to address some fantastic missions and opportunities that we have here at NASA to look forward to is less what I'm really mean. It's an exciting time. So if we can just give a quick summary, Jim, if you want to for what was said today. So it was it was his opportunity to come and lay out for the folks here at the Johnson Space Center, but also for everybody who works at NASA nationally. Really his vision for civil space for our journey back to the moon for commercializing low-earth, orbit for building Esa lesson Orion to get humans deeper into space than ever before and really get get the get NASA and its workforce enthused about the next chapter of humans and space. And so. I would I would say based on his his speech today, I think I think it was affected. I absolutely agree. And he was here at the Johnson Space Center because we do play an integral role. So Mark, what is what is the role of the Johnson Space Center and all this? So Johnson has in the past and still plays an incredible core role to human spaceflight? Uh-huh. So we do, of course, we do the obvious things. The astronauts are trained and picked and flown from here. We do operation, so we control the spacecraft and work with the crews here in mission operations. And then also we do design work like Orion programs, like a Ryan. We manage programs like space station, which ties the world together on an incredible program. Then we do human health and performance, which is part of seeing how the body behaves in space kind of ties to our work with astronauts. And then what what was great about the visit today? I think was he also visited the curation facility, which is where in the really in. United States. Whenever we bring samples back from other worlds, they come here to do to the Johnson Space Center. So that's a key piece. I think a lot of people forget that we do. Yeah, huge array of activities, a lot of dealing with research and sort of trying to understand what we need to know to go out further into space and then the actual technologies behind that Jim you were, you were appointed very recently here. So you've been when when you first came on, you said you recognize NASA as a family. Now that you've been here a couple months, do you feel like you're part of the family without question folks have been just so welcoming and nice. In fact, I had my family here at the Johnson Space Center just a couple of weeks ago and what an amazing opportunity for my kids to be able to interact with the brilliant folks that are here and really have have a chance to spend time with some of the smartest minds in our country. So yeah, it it has been. It has really felt like a family and having my family here. Really, I think solidified that. That's right. So. So you've been, you've been a proponent for spaceflight and and NASA just in general throughout your career. Now coming here and being part of NASA. When someone comes up to you now and says, what does NASA do? Knowing knowing kind of what we do from the inside. What do you say? We increase the awesome. That's what we do as we are a part of the federal government that works on really, really awesome things. And you know the my, my job as the NASA administrator is really focused on making sure that we're following through on the president's space policy directives. His first base policy directive is that we're going to the moon and we're going to go in a sustainable way. His second space policy directive is about regulation and enabling commercial partnerships. And of course, his third space policy directive is about space, situational awareness and space, traffic management. And of course, NASA plays a role and or will benefit from each of those. And so we're really. Putting together the architecture that that follows through on the president's directives and then watching. You know what the great workforce here does in enabling our missions to go forward in a really amazing way. So people say, you know, what is NASA do a lot of people. You know, you think about the history. There's a lot of awesomeness in the history, and you think about the space shuttles and the retirement of the space. Shuttle's people remember that remember those days going back to, you know, Gemini and Apollo and mercury before that. And of course they remember remember the space shuttle's. But at this point we're focused on getting American astronauts to launch on American rockets again from American soil for the first time since twenty eleven the retirement of the space shuttle's, and and so we're going to get there and look forward to being at the helm and all of that happens again. That's right. This is this is one of those exciting things that I was talking about from American soil again. So when we do want. To go through all of these exciting things right launching from American soil, this commercialization, this this deep space exploration. But I wanna know since since I have you here, what's your role as the administrator at NASA to make all this happen? So again, following through on the president's base policy directives and then ultimately guiding the agency as as you think about the policy and the and the directions that were the the directions that were taking, you know, the, you know, my my role is really guidance and I work a lot with the interagency, a lot of people think space and they think NASA, but for all of our commercial partners, a lot of them provide things in space that are licensed if you will, by the FAA office of commercial space, transportation when you think about, you know, remote sensing, imagery, all the all of that is licensed by the the Commerce Department, through through Noah. So so there there's a lot of activity in space, the department of defense, the intelligence community, the department of. Transportation, there's a lot of activity that isn't specific to NASA where we need interagency kind of collaboration. So I work with the agency. I also work as a former member of congress. I work on the hill to make sure that our, you know budget requirements are are being met to accomplish the objectives set forth by the president. And of course, by congress, they authorize, you know what we're supposed to be doing, and of course they appropriate the funds to accomplish those objectives. So you know, my goal is to make sure that we are within within the law that we're following through on the president's guidance and that at the end of the day, we're, we're heading the right direction. So with this guidance with with these directives, Mark win a Johnson Space Center, what are we doing to sort of take this path? So we have course, we're finishing the commercial crew vehicles in a part of our job at Johnson Space center's to be kind of the space. Crapped expert. So we're okay following along with their providers and following along in the design and checking the requirements. So we're getting into a certification part of that. Are we ready? You are these vehicles mean requirements ready, put our crews in them, and that's going to be essential because we're trying to basically operate the space station. Keep up the space station. And as Jim said, fly from US soil, get cut, the cut the cost down. So we'll keep part of that is finishing that part of the job. And then on space station, of course, we're doing research for how the human body behaves in long duration. And that's a key part of any exploration plan. Right? How how are we going to keep our crews safe and healthy for these long duration missions. So that's a big part that we're doing today. That applies the Nestle Esa Ryan as as I mentioned before, many times that we're ready almost ready to fly in twenty twenty. We'll be flying. And those are key missions that enable space policy directive. Number one going back to the moon because you need the kind of energy that SOS. Provides and the kind of systems that Orion provides to get a crew out past the moon. So those are going to be very visible things in the near term. And then really we've been working in for a while about what we're gonna do round the mood right now. We're gonna use this gateway to basically provide access to the moon, and so we're in the early stages, but Johnson plays a key role in in how that's gonna work and how that might come together. And we use our experience in how to partner with people both international and commercial to figure out the smartest ways to make that happen. So we have a lot a lot of pieces that were pulling together to help NASA implement that plan. When you think about the human physiology which Mark mentioned, that's one of the big reasons. The first space policy directive by the president is to go back to the moon. We know because of the great work done here at Johnson. We know what happens to human physiology in a microgravity environment. We know that you know your your bone mass will decrease by about one to three percent per month, and there are ways to mitigate against that, but, but there will be a degradation of the bone. Mass, we know that the heart will be decommissioned. We know that the narrow vestibular system gets thrown out a wack while you're in a microgravity environment when you come back to a gravity environment. So the question is, you know if we're going to send astronauts tomorrow, they're going to be in that microgravity environment for six, seven, eight, nine months. And once they're out Mars, there's no coming home for at least two years while the moon gives us an opportunity to to prove out, you know, can you know are? Are there are there ways that we can have an astronaut in a microgravity environment for six months and then send them to the moon and see if that reverses the effects like when you're in one sixth g which is the surface of the moon? Does that reverse the effects that you had in microgravity and if it does, then we would know that in one third g which is Mars it would probably also be effective. But the reality is we can't send astronauts for the first time. After being in a microgravity environment for seven months, put them on on the surface of another world and have them be perfect. They have to be perfect in order to stay alive for two years and proving that out at the moon is really the best way to do it. And so that's what space policy directive. One is all about as well as retiring the risk for a lot of the technologies and the capabilities. That's right. Yeah, that's one of the things. One of the nice things I think about the international space station is that it's so close. Two hundred and fifty miles sounds pretty far, but honestly, it's it's pretty close to home. If anything goes wrong, he could come back. It's the perfect place really to test a lot of these capabilities. And that's I think, where the commercial crew comes in right now, we're, we're doing the certification process. We're working with space exam, Boeing, very closely to provide us the capability for low to access to lower orbit, but it's not just that, right. We're talking about the space station. We're ending direct federal funding in twenty twenty-five building a lower orbit. Economy, something that's, I don't think been done before. What's so that's part of this directive, right? Is establishing an economy in space, so how are we doing that? It's a great question, and we're going to have to work through it. You can imagine there's all kinds of technologies and capabilities that have been developed already, and Mark has been really good about talking about how the space station. The international space station has really been a a key driver of enabling us to to commercialize lower orbit. If there is no space station, there would be no commercialization. And so it has been a very effective tool for building the space economy if you will. And now when you think about what the future holds, even experiments that are happening right now, you think about fiber optics being manufactured on the international space station, which could drive down the cost for an essence making not just America, but the world more connected. You think about the ability to produce pharmaceuticals in a microgravity environment where you can. Do things that you cannot do on earth. You think about taking adult stem cells and three d. printing human organs to increase the the, you know, the lives of of humans. All of these things are being developed right now with the support of NASA on the international space station. And each one of those things is a market unto itself, and there's so much more. All right. So what we want to make sure on another piece of this, you know, we talk about commercial crew. We're going to be launching commercial crew here in the next year. We're talking about the as as as we've talked about sending American astronauts on American rockets from American soil, all of that is fantastic. But these commercial crew providers in many, they have seats. They have. They have seven seats on their spacecraft, which means we could be flying tourists to the international space station. In other words, there's and I'm not saying we're going to do that. I'm saying that is an opportunity that we need to look at. Because there could be a day when we have not just tourists, but you know, different types of scientists, different types of even journalists flying to the international space station to share with the world kind of what's what's happening in in lower orbit. So there's all kinds of ways for the international space station to become more commercialized between now and two thousand two twenty twenty-five that seven years from now there's between now and then there's a lot that's going to change and it's not just the international space station that could be more commercialized. It would be other private habitat habitats in lower orbit that would be adding to that marketplace in lower orbit. So there's a lot of really exciting things happening what we want to make sure we do though and Mark and I have talked about this. We want to make sure that we're planning today for a future where we have no gaps in lower orbit. We, we don't want to have a day. When American astronauts are not their kids that are graduating from high school today have lived their entire lives with the human living and working in space. We wanna make sure that that happens, you know, eighteen years from now and then eighteen years from then there's no gap. And so that's really what we're working to achieve now. That's right. And it's already under work Mark. I know just recently the NASA research announcement came out. We selected companies to actually take a look specifically at this. What can we do? Right. So so what's going on there? Yeah, exactly. That's good. Great lead in. 'cause we're, you know, we NASA were smart people. We've been partnering with people for our whole our whole histories. Now we're asking people that are on the cutting edge of commercializing space in some are suppliers, some are creating demand side, so we ask them, what would you do? Right. Well, what do you think makes sense as a company that would enable you and what do you think Nastase doing that's stopping you? So let's talk about both of those and what are the things we can do as a as an agency to help. That because we, because Jim said, that's the goal we're trying to be an I liked the phrase, one of many customers. So how does that happen? That means these other folks need to be customers. These other folks need to have a reason to be in space. And so how do we enable that? So we're really casting a wide net asking people who have not just people who are thinking, but people will actually done commercial ideas in space and say, okay, how would it work? That's gonna put together a real plan. I think that's the key. Yeah, working and also be sustainable, something that's a business opportunity, something that you want people to come and participate in jock. Now it's it's an, it's something that commercial industries can profit from think we see when if if it got just add to that, we're seeing on station with the with the national lab and other things where it's not. It's not real real simple to start a company in space, right? It's not real real simple to start creating a product and space takes some help from NASA just to get up there and takes people with expertise about what happens. In space, and then it takes try a trial and error. So the national lab is a great example where we take people who are interested, who are are normal space folks that being space, all sorts of different companies. And then we give them talk about the opportunities. We time with people who have capabilities, we Lincoln with people who have money, say, hey, these people might be interested to because it seating that that's really really important. And I think what will the key was wave one when one of those takes off where somebody really starts making money in space, that'll be great for us. We just need to get out of the way because they're, they're going to be doing their thing. And that's really gonna help us reduce our fixed costs because they'll be buying services to for good. And then when that happens, then as Mark said, we'll, we will be what NASA will be one customer of many customers which drives down our price, but we'll also have a lot of providers when I say a lot of providers will have a lot of launch providers will have a lot of potentially commercial space stations that we can take our NASA astronauts to on commercial launch providers and then so if you have multiple providers and we are one of many customers, then they're competing on innovation. They're trying to do more in order to become a bigger. You know, they want us to be an even bigger customer so they're gonna compete on innovation. They're gonna compete on costs that means NASA can do more than it's ever done before. It also means that we're going to be able to take our resources from the tax payer and do things for which there is no commercial marketplace. We can fly to the moon on Esa less Orion, which right now there isn't a commercial capability there, and of course we can build the gateway. And the first gateway is about more. Access to more parts of the moon than ever before. And the second gateway is a deep space transport that takes us to Mars. So all of those capabilities are dependent on us commercializing low-earth or we don't wanna lose low-earth orbit. We just want it to be commercialized and then we can take our resources and do things where there is no commercial market yet we don't wanna lose. It goes back to your point in saying, continuing access, right? We still want to be a part of that. NASA says one of many customers, but also the access you know for for astronauts to and even for for private companies to to send people up there. And that's, that's actually moneymaking endeavor as well. But you know, while we're while we're also doing that. There's this this economy down there so we can focus on like you're saying exploration and this gateway thing. I don't think it's something we've touched on so much on the show so so we've what is gateway? What is this thing? So the idea is space policy directive. One says we're going to the moon. It also says that we're going to go sustainably. In other words. We're not gonna do flags and footprints again. But this time when we go to the moon, we're going to stay. So one of the ways to make sure that we don't come home is to put a space station around the moon for a very long period of time. And you know, it's going to have solar electric propulsion, which means very high specific impulse. In other words. Of the the fuel economy will be very, very high. So it can stay there for a long period of time, and it's in what's called a near rectilinear near rectilinear halo orbit, which means it's kind of balanced between earth or earth and the moon are, you know, the gravity wells of the two planetary bodies. So all of that being said, it can be there for a long, long time. And then what we need is we need reusability we we know what happens with reusable launch. The costs go down, access goes up. We need, you know, tugs between earth orbit and lunar orbit to be reusable. We need Landers that go from that gateway that space station in orbit around the minute. We need Landers to be reusable. All of that reusability is what makes everything sustainable. The other thing is important is when we go to the moon. We want to have access to every part of the moon, not just the Equatorial regions from nineteen sixty nine. When we first landed on the moon all the way up until two thousand eight thirty nine years. We believed that the moon was bone dry and in two thousand eight. And then a more in two thousand nine, we discovered that there's hundreds of billions of tons of water ice on the surface of the moon. Water ice represents water to drink, of course, but it also represents air to breathe and it represents rocket fuel hydrogen and oxygen ultimately when separated into its component parts and put into cryogenic form. That's that's rocket fuel. Now. Space policy directive. One signed by the president actually talks about utilizing the resources of the moon. So again, we wanna go sustainably. We want to not do flags and footprints. We want to be there to stay. We want to utilize the resources of of the moon, namely water ice for now, but it's also true and we don't know, but it's true that there could be, you know, platinum group metals on the surface of the moon, rare on earth. We call them rare earth metals, but they're really asteroid impacts from billions of years ago while the moon has the same, the same path that the moon has through this older system which which means that it probably impacted the same asteroid that the earth is impacted, which means there could be a lot could be trillions of dollars worth of platinum group metals on the surface of the moon, we don't know, but certainly we should find out and it should be the United States of America that finds out not somebody else. Yes. I like this idea of. Gateway, because basically what you're describing is is developing none of the space station and access, but also capability a flexible capabilities. So it it orbits the moon, but basically after that you can kind of decide it's it's all about exploration. Right? So as soon as he finds something new, you can, you know, let's go check that out. Let's go check that out. It's a neighboring this access. It's it's awesome time, and the thing that's going to take us there. Right is the space launch system. That's right. That an fact commercial partners as well. Oh, okay. I'll going to be open architecture. So whether people are docking or using the power of the gateway, you know, we, we want, we want our commercial partners to be able to build their own Landers. We want our our international partners to be able to build their own Landers the the goal here ultimately is for the United States of America to assume the lead and then enable our commercial and international partners to do more and and and be there for a very long period of time. So that we can learn scientifically more about the moon than we've ever known before. Like I said, we, I discovered water ice in two thousand eight. What else do we not know about the surface of moon? And I'm willing to bet there is a lot we don't know. And then ultimately, again, retiring the risk on a lot of these capabilities and technologies so that that gateway can be in the long run. The second gateway can be our deep space transport to to get us to Mars, and we want this entire architecture to be replicable like we wanna be able to take it to Mars, and that's that's the objective. Now, I know you know Mars and the moon are not the same. Mars has an atmosphere which makes entry descent and landing a little bit more challenging. But at the same time as much of that we can replicate we want to be able to to replicate for sure. Another thing you've been touching on is, is this idea of leadership. The idea of Americans leading this effort. So why is this important to this to this directive. So a lot of people don't realize the soft power capability of NASA. This is really, you know earlier? Yes. What do you do is the NASA administrator? Well, really about a month ago, I was at the Farnborough airshow in England meeting with the heads of space agencies from around the world and the the idea, you know, I was going to sell this new space policy directive that we're going to the moon and we're gonna do a sustainable architecture at the moon, and we want our commercial and international partners to join us in this effort. I thought I was going to have to do a hard sales pitch, and the reality is they're ready to go. It was really easy. They're saying to me, tell us what you need us to do, and we'll go sell our governments because we're ready. They've a lot of countries around the world have been waiting to go to the moon and they just needed, you know, the leader and that's who we are. We lead, you know you, you other thing, I think is important about NASA when relationships breakdown around the world. And of course you can probably tell that we've had a. Strained relationship recently with Russia. We're able to continue to cooperate on space related activities, civil space related activities, which has enabled us to do more enabled them to do more. And that's really a a line of communication that would not be available without NASA. So NASA represents an amazing opportunity for the United States of America to lead it represents a soft power capability and and really an open channel of communication when other channels fail. So so I know it's kind of along these lines of of American leadership and it's, it goes back to this idea of cooperation, right? It's something that we're doing right now market very familiar with it. Right. You've worked in the space station program for longtime you yourself were a leader to to actually work with Russia and make things happen. So describe how it's it's called an international space station. It's called that for a reason is because it's all of these nations coming together to make this thing this single idea possible. So how does that? How does that work this international quite a great lead in or tied to your previous question to because really it was NASA United States that said, hey, we want to do this space station, and, hey, we want to do this with other folks and then they came alongside and did it with us what to do that. So to lead, you know, to be a good leader one, you have to have a vision but to you also have to listen, right. You have to understand your partners common goals in. So unifying around common goals is really important, and that was a lot of what we did with the Russians in the early stage, you know, you, you set. Policy, but then you sit down across the table and talk about what drives them. Right? What's likely to enable support within their country for them to get the funding to do the things that that they need to do. And so a lot of that is you you find out that's what makes these kind of partnerships work so stations. The a big example of that, not just the Russians, but of course, European to Japanese Canadians and all of them have their own thing, right? They have their own thing that they're interested in their own thing that drives them in. So you're trying to find the common that still meets Nasr's in the United States is goal. So as Jim said, we're taking that experience then out to the moon because Orion has a European component, right? The European service module is a big piece of Orion, it's and that's a strategic decision to go partner with them to make that piece of Orion. So it's the beginning of us leading now into the next phase. And Jim said, also for the gateway, they'll be international and commercial partners as part of that too. So it's take. In that experience? I think we're learning better how to partner with commercial folks because they had their own things that drive them. Right. And and how do we find common common goals that that help them help their company but still line up with what we want as a nation. So it's a, it's a, it's a skill that not a lot of people have. It takes time to learn how to do it, but it's it's always exciting, and it's a big part I think is what's going to make a sustainable. As Jim said in the future, one of the challenges that you you kind of touched on is. Commercial partners are are one type of partnership. International partners are another type of partnership, and we want to enable commercial to join us as we develop our next generation of capabilities and they want to join us. The challenge is how how do you, if you're developing this architecture and you want commercial partnerships in it? How do you then include international partners as well. And so the idea would be, well, we bring in our commercial partners. They bring in their commercial partners, and then we partner at the agency level with all of our commercial partners kind of in the in the mix will. There are some countries that don't have commercial partners. They don't have commercial space capabilities. And in fact, I've met with one country in particular, who you know, told me that that they're not interested in commercial and the and the, you know, they're not real thrilled about our commercialization of space. And I said, we'll tell me, why is that? We can do more now than we've ever been able to do before. Why is that? And this. This particular person said, well, we don't have private capital in our country which kinda was eye opening for me. We don't. We don't have private capital. So to the extent we partner with some countries that have a different way of doing government and business. You know, we have to, we have to think carefully about how to how to include them in an era when we want commercialization and they're, they're not there yet and in some of these cases and I've talked to some countries, they're working really hard to develop a commercial capability that doesn't exist, which is also that's good to see. That's that's American leadership. That's NASA leadership that's going to enable us as humanity to do more than we've ever done before. That's wonderful. There's this sense of American inspiration as well because we've been working with with companies now our nation's four with the international space station for almost two decades now. Right? So so it's it's this constant cooperation that kind of gets the wheels turning and makes things work. But are you seeing a change in the landscape? Are you seeing that it's growing that more companies and more industry are wanting to take part in a space exploration and and even commercial space Mark? Yeah, yeah. I think you can see it in just the variation of the companies that are working on payloads and other things on space station companies that have grown up basically, really providing a capability. Nobody thought of before, like right, an airlock to than us to fly small satellites keeps ads right something that we didn't think about a lot now station, I think is the number one platform for launching the satellites into space. So things we hadn't thought of before companies are coming up with that. So. So the key is, as we've talked providing a framework where you can get that innovation right, getting enough framework that we make sure station is going to be okay, but then giving enough room so they can intimate and find niches that we would never have thought of before. So we're seeing that a lot of different way of doing business. Yeah, but there's also even beyond ASO. When you think about what's happening with communication architectures where it used to be in order to do over the rise in communication, you had to launch to geostationary orbit and the the satellites were five hundred million dollars and they were, you know, the size of of this table here. And now we're seeing constellations of thousands of satellites being launched into low-earth orbit that are the size of a a dishwasher. And that's going to enable low latency high throughput communications. In other words, it will meet the same standard as cell tower communications, your your cell phone will be able to work wherever you are in the world. You could be in in rural Alaska, or you could be in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and your cell phone will work from any of those locations which will connect. You know, there's still two thirds of the world. It's not connected well at that point, anybody who has a cell phone is now connected to the rest of the world. So those capabilities are being launched and there's half a dozen different companies that are launching those types of constellations into space. And each one of those companies will be able to benefit NASA. When you think about the the communication architecture that we need in space and ultimately the type of communication architecture that we're going to need around the moon and maybe even at Mars. So there's a lot of a lot of commercial capability being developed right now that's going to be tremendously valuable for for NASA, right capability opportunity, everything really. I know something else new is we're in this time now where where the administration is suggesting a space force, right? I actually had my mom text me and say, how does this affect you? Is that mean Nassar's going away? I feel like there's there's sort of a disconnect going on here. So how, how, how do you describe to those who are confused space force and NASA. Great question. Now. NASA does exploration and discovery and science. We do not do national security and defense. Of course, we, we do have an ability to do international relations and soft power leadership, those kind of things, but we don't get involved in the hard power activities of the country. Intentionally you go back to nineteen fifty eight. The creation of NASA Eisenhower was absolutely adamant that NASA not be part of the national security apparatus. So that's that's a good thing for our agency at the same time, the space force. When you think about what it is it's, it's really look at air force space command. They're responsible for organizing and training a cadre of professionals that can do space security activities. And then the space and missile systems center, which is another air force command is responsible for acquiring assets for space, defense, space, security. So you take those. Those components air force base command, and the space and missile systems center. And you take them out of the air force and you. You put them under a new secretary, a secretary of the space force, and you have a rep, have them represented on the joint chiefs of staff, and that in essence, because becomes your organize, train and equip function, which is all that a military services, military service is responsible for organizing training and equipping a cadre of professionals to fight in a certain domain. So all of that could be, in fact, the, you know, the plan is that that's, you know, it would. It would come really out of the air force. Now, the benefit of creating a separate forces than it has a line item that is equal to that of the air force and the navy and the army and the Marine Corps, and it doesn't have to compete against the air domain for resources. Don't get me wrong. It will have to still compete because the end of the day the the budget is only so big, but it will have its have the ability to. Pete on the same level as as the air force, the navy and the army. So all of that I think is is really what the space pours is all about. If you listen to what the vice president announced the number of weeks ago, he also said that they want to create a new combatant command. So the military service organizes trains and equips the cadre of professionals, but ultimately warfighting is done by what's called a a combatant command. In this case, it would be functional, combatant command. People are really familiar with what a geographic combatant command as geographic meaning like where in the world is it. So Centcom is in the Middle East people are familiar with Centcom or European command African command. There's the Pacific command all of these different geographic combatant commands. In this case, it would be a functional combatant command responsible for fighting and winning wars and space. The idea being, you know, NASA and our commercial partners and other commercial entities. We, you know, we have hundreds of Bill. Millions of dollars in space, hundreds of billions. Plus we have our astronauts and space, and so they general we need security. And what we have to do is we have to make sure that any potential adversary that we may have any potential adversary looks at the space domain and they see that there aren't going to get any kind of advantage by destroying it. They cannot win. There is no advantage. And in fact, if they tried, it wouldn't work. That's the goal. And if we can deter them from taking a war into space, then the rest of us, all of humanity can use space for our peaceful purposes, which is what ultimately we've been doing now since Nasr's creation in nineteen fifty eight. So as a member of congress, when I was in congress, I voted for the space force three times and it passed the full house of representatives and it passed in a strong bipartisan way. Got three hundred and forty four votes. And of course it went to the Senate and it didn't pass the Senate, but. There were strong bipartisan support in the house. The president has seen the same intelligence that we've seen in the congress, and he took it up a notch and said, we, we gotta get this done, and I think he's right. Awesome. In the meantime, NASA is is leading this cooperative exploration. That's exactly right. And so it's part of our, it's part of our vision is is reaching new heights and reveal the unknown. So as we're wrapping up into be conscious of your time, this meaning this reveal the unknown reached new heights. What does this mean to you? And we'll close with that. So it's it really. We are learning new things every day just since I've been the NASA administrator little over three months, we have discovered in these little over three months that Mars has a methane cycle that is perfectly in tune or keeps perfectly with the seasons of Mars, which doesn't guarantee you that there's life, but it increases the probability that there's life complex. Complex IV, what the compounds, organic, organic compounds have been found on Mars, which again doesn't guarantee life, but it increases the probability of life on we. We've also discovered now just maybe a couple of weeks ago, there's liquid water one and a half kilometers under the surface of Mars. Now that doesn't again guarantee life, but liquid water is a good. You need liquid water for life and the fact that it's one and a half kilometers underground means that it's going to be protected from the radiation environment of of deep space, which all of this adds up to say, is there life on Mars? We don't know, but we need to find out and to the extent that somebody finds life on a world that's not our own. It needs to be the United States of America. So that's what we're doing. We're making discoveries, you know, we're going to launch in the next three years. The James Webb space telescope and we're gonna see back to the very dawn of time caused. Mik Don the first light in the universe. We have ideas and models as to what the universe looked like when it was first created, but we know that those models are all wrong we need to. And so we're going to see it with with our own instruments. So the James Webb space telescope is not just gonna, look all the way back to the very first light in the universe. It's also going to see back all the way out to the edge of the universe where we have galaxies that are accelerating, you know, you know, as the universe expands, it's expanding at an ever increasing rate. The universes exceleron away from a point in the center, and that expansion ultimately is demonstrating that there's a force at work here that we don't understand. We talk about things like dark energy and dark matter things that we can't detect we can't interact with. But what we do know is that you know, we see its gravitational effects and and we see these galaxies accelerate. Eating at the edge of our universe to the speed of light. So they just disappear. Well, we're going to be able to look at all those. We're going to be able to see inside of other galaxies. We're going to be able to see within our own galaxy. We're going to be able to see planets around other stars and ultimately make determinations whether or not those planets have a heb irritable, kind of atmosphere wouldn't be able to to determine what if if these planets have atmospheres, what does atmospheres are composed of? And if there could be life there. So look Nasr's doing really amazing things. And every day we're making new discoveries and the the more capability that we're putting into space even right now that we're going to have so many new discoveries. We're not going to be able to, you know, communicate all of them fast enough, which is a really good problem to have. So we're learning more about more about our universe. Are we alone in the world? And these are these are important questions for us to answer. Wonderful Mark. Any final thoughts before we wrap up? I think there's some other things. About NASA that I know changed my life. You know, I remember the first pictures from mercury and Gemini about the earth from space, which change was no one had seen before, so it changed our whole idea. And then as Jim in an earlier speech today was talking about Apollo eight. And I remember seeing the earth come up over the limb of the moon and remembering what that felt like to see ourselves in the solar system. From a distance changed. Everybody's idea of kind of how important the earth was. Those were really changed our whole perception. I remember when Bob Cabana and Sergei creek off went together through the hatch of the of the node, the first time in space station, right joining together. So the I think those images along with the discoveries, those images I think can change the way we see ourselves in the world can be really, really important. And I think what this new exploration campaign we're going to see many more those things. That's wonderful. This obsession exciting time, Jim and Mark. Thank you so much for coming on the show and and sharing these wonderful insights. It's really a pleasure to talk to you today. Thank you. Thank you so much, Gary. Bring your. Hey, thanks for sticking around. I had a great conversation with our administrator and Senator director here at Johnson Space Center talked to Jim, Brian Stein, and Mark Geyer they're both on Twitter so you can follow them specifically if you would like on Twitter, it's at Jim, Brian Stein for our NASA administrator and it's at director. Mark g for our Senator director here at the Johnson Space Center. There are a lot of other NASA podcasts that you can listen to Houston. We have a podcast is one of them another out at headquarters is gravity assist hosted by Dr Jim green. We have NASA in Silicon Valley out of the Ames research center and then rocket ranch out at Kennedy Space Center in Florida. You can follow us on social media NASA as a whole agency to see what we're doing. Just across all of these different areas. NASA is on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram under at NASA. You can use the hashtag, ask NASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for this show Houston. We have a podcast just make sure to mention Houston. We have a podcast in their quest so we can. Find it. This episode was recorded on August twenty third twenty eighteen. Thanks to Alex Perryman Johnstone Pat Ryan. James Hartsfield Dylan Mathis and David bolt. Thanks to Matt Ryden and Johnny brick at necessa- quarters for helping this to come together. Thanks to Stephanie Custodio here at the Johnson Space Center also. And also thanks again to NASA administrator. Jim Breitenstein and Johnson Space Center director Mark Geyer for taking the time to come on the show. We'll be back next week.

NASA NASA Johnson Space Center Johnson Space Center NASA administrator Jim Breitenstein United States NASA Johnson Space Center Mark America president Nasr James Webb space telescope Tulsa Erin Space Museum administrator Kennedy Space Center Pat Ryan partner NASA Johnson Mark Geyer
Fighting Space Effects

Houston We Have a Podcast

56:31 min | 1 year ago

Fighting Space Effects

"In Houston we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson. Space Center episode one twenty-six Fighting Space Effects. I'm Gary Jordan. I'll be your host today on this. podcast we bring in the experts. Scientists engineers astronauts also. Let you know what's going on in the world of human spaceflight. This is part. Four of our six part series is on the human research program. Today we're going to focus on the human health countermeasures element one of the five teams at NASA Johnson Space Center working on finding the best methods ads and technology to support safe productive human space travel but more specifically seeking to understand the physiological effects of spaceflight the effects on astronaut health breath giving you further insight into human health. Countermeasures is Laura Bulwark Element Manager and Dr Peter Norsk Element scientist and a professor at the center dinner for Space Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine Together. They lead the group that lends biomedical expertise for the development and assessment in areas such as medical Standards Vehicle and space requirements and countermeasures. which are ways to preemptively fight? The effects of space for example exercising and all of this is has done to ensure crew health during all phases of flight and to prepare for missions deeper into space. So here we go the intricacies of what we're doing to fight the effects of space ace on human health with Laurel Wig and Dr Peter Norsk enjoy County Orange Laura and Peter. Thank you so much for coming on. Houston we have a podcast today. Thanks invited we're it's a pleasure to be here. Yeah me too thank you so today. We're GONNA be talking about human health countermeasures. Now I'm going to start right Bhai asking and this might be a stupid question. But what's a countermeasure. Countermeasures procedure own equipment to be used against the negative effects of spaceflight on the human body so an example is if she approved to fend fainting after spaceflight on the ground. You would have a you do something. In order to make the body resistance to gravity one example example is use the government that comprises lower part of the body and keeps fluid and blood in the upper part of the brains fused and you drink soda water order before landing. That's a countermeasure that consists of civil items. Okay so it's a way. It's a way of preventing something from happening or I guess a Response to some effect of spaceflight. Yeah in a negative hills effects or something that are fixed performance in a negative fashion for the mission okay so so would sitting on my butt and watching. TV All day a countermeasure to fight the amount of TV. I WANNA watch would be to work out every once in awhile. Yes okay all right. That's a that's the way I like to think. Oh you could you could because simply shut off the TV. And what are you trying to. Xavier kind of richer can have a certain protocol to it so you could have a certain exercise regime. Okay Yeah there you go all right so so to get into countermeasures fully. Understand what you do for this particular element of Human Research Let's go into your backgrounds. Laura why don't you start what's your what's your background and has it really to counteract for sure. I'm a mechanical engineer from University of Akron and I came to NASA as an intern working Shuttle Training Propulsion Asian and then Over time I changed to teach the International Space Station and with the project manager for developing the simulator emulator for the first I assessed crew and trained the second class for that I I S S crew. So it's been a long time so I really I appreciate spaceflight at operational aspects and I wanted to come to the human research program to get early in the program to really make a difference in changing things before the vehicles built before things are locked down. Okay yeah because when you said you were training crew so naturally you have that human human interaction when it comes to how people you know interpret how to train with certain things so you have that human element and incorporating that ahead of time naturally make sense hence right you wanna design something that maybe might not be or might instead of designing something that is the most efficient for what it is to do is the most efficient but with incorporating that human factor absolutely we with countermeasures. We don't think about just our specific element. We think about the big picture so we might think about human factors how that plays into the countermeasure So it's not just a physiological but physiological human factors together. Okay now Peter What how about you. What's your background well? I'm an Indie from the University of Copenhagen and But I actually started my space interest long before that when I was was ten years of age. Sixty three watching or actually listening to at that time John Glenn during his first orbits around the Earth and that inspired me for my who live and when I became an Md.. I looked up a certain research group in Denmark. There was only one space medicine because then markets more country so we were the only ones and I worked in that group and Carter became the leader of that group for many years before I came to NASA about nine years ago ago so before that I did the research on the space station before that on the Russian space station Mir and before that again on the shuttle so uh-huh Cardiovascular Research Understanding fundamentals of gravity and microgravity on could cartoon ESTA system very important research. So you did research on You have a kind of an understanding of what's happening to the human body in space and naturally you being part of the countermeasures. Part of things it's figuring out ways on how to counteract that yeah in Europe was more fundamental understanding the basic at your reputation of the cardiovascular system to to weightlessness So when I came to NASA it was more kind of using that knowledge as well as artificial article knowledge to counteract the negative health effects of space flight flight. So that's why I actually went to heaven more applied uproot. Okay now. It's worth mentioning Peter that you've been on the podcast before me. And he had a great discussion on what we were going to the hazards of human spaceflight. And we talked about exactly what you're talking about. How gravity affects the human body in space? I think the last and this might be an update. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are are now a professor at the Center for Space Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine. Alright well congratulations. Thank you very much. How do you split your time? How do you do professor and do Nassar Search or are they very much interwoven? Totally Okay and that's why it requires more work to because I have to do lectures and papers that I didn't indeed do before In my capacity as professor at Baylor call so medicine but I enjoy doing. It actually improves. My work at NASA administering scientifically to lower the economies our program project for you and here's compromise element in the human resource program. I'm learning the learning. beat the AKRONS and how things were but I think getting them. Yeah me too. I'm always learning Now let's let's get into it. Let's go into exactly as you guys are doing human health countermeasures. Laura what is this organization. What are you focusing on with it? Well Peter Nike Co lead the element Peter Peter Develops the scientific strategy so everything we do is based on sound scientific thought and principles and then We work together to turn those use in to An implementation plan and so the implementation is a little bit more in in mice. My side of things So he challenges me on a daily basis You know how to get the most science in with the research platform that we have available including the International Space Station but we have research platforms on the ground as well. Okay so let's go into the implementation a little bit more. What is it exactly that you are implementing? What are the things? You're focusing on to figure out what these countermeasures won't countermeasures. We need for successful spaceflight. So based on his scientific diffic- strategy. We put together something that might get for for example if the countermeasure is projected to be hardware than put together hardware validation. Dacian plan to make sure that the hardware will work. So we've got enough things in the schedule enough resources enough for the right skill sets pulling in so that at the end of the day when when it's time to deliver it to the right program the hardware or software or whatever. The countermeasure is it's gone through Rigorous Engineering Thought Process. Okay so Peter Lorre mentioned that the decisions made on what to implement. It has to be based on sound on science. So what how do you define that. What is the sound science That you're looking at the science is one of those miss mystic words. Swear by you can hide behind. Seem very clever and nobody understands what you actually means. Appeal use word ruinously many times. It just means knowledge you can trust. Let's so how do I gain notice I can trust. Meaning it's been all kinds of questions As to when you got this knowledge you measure it. What are the inaccuracies did you take? Isn't that into account. I mean take that into consideration and controlling for all the unknowns is good science so my job is to make sure that we are following the best practice of science. That's already been done in the United States particularly the emperor in the Western World Making sure that those procedures are used also at NASA at an adequate level even maybe and also making sure Oh that these best practices other being implemented into if something is is in an analog in this way and that's where Laura helps me making sure sure that is happening because she knows how to do that. I don't know that I know what the best practices. What kind of science and Christians? Who have to ask? She knows what can be done or not on how Oh to keep on schedule. That's very important to me because I'm always out of schedule. I don't keep the skills but she does and also making sure that you can actually fry this experiment on the ISS. If I wish to bring up an elephant instead of a mouse to to some things he will not possible then our last for having giraffes you you say no and then we end up with water so this is kind of the practical way of doing things at the medicine acting makes an excellent contribution to mhm so great science naturally that has to be done on the International Space Station. The the problem is the best science you know. We know it's my job to know how to do of that journal but how it is sometimes different because you have constraints doing eurospace lights also very operational. They're very many are known. Two other considerations The management system may not all engine young leadership system may not always know that you know be able to implement the best practices right. This is so we have to compromise and find out that it makes the whole thing worthwhile or not so. That's actually the most difficult decisions. Sometimes so Laura what are the constraints of spaceflight make maybe doing research on the International Space Station a little bit harder. But I think Peter alluded to it. there's you know size you know. Is it something that is. It's possible to do on the International Space Station you know. The weight The schedule we normally Have proposals about eighteen months before there's enough time time to work through the implementation There's also typically we don't think about a particular study we often are thinking of a series of studies and how they come come together to answer specific milestones. And so it's it's not just studied by study but is there enough. I think a lot of the implementation is. Is there enough time to get the research questions. We need answered while we have assess available. It's an important platform mm-hmm for long duration We need to make sure that the research gets done during the timeframe we have This important research platform. Yeah time time that the research platform will exist as a platform But I'm sure time is also a constraint when it comes to astronauts right. You're not the only ones trying to do. Research on the International Final Space Station. You have to make sure that it's going to be something that the astronauts will be able to conduct in their own very tight schedules Something I know is is a big constraint. So naturally you know you can't do a bunch of you can't do everything that you want on the International Space Station. Where else could you test? Some of the countermeasures was that you would like to do well. We have something called analogs and you were actually learned when I came to NASA headquarters kind of simulation models in Europe and we assimilate the effects of weightlessness by May for the major parts by using hit down Petra's understanding the body and shifting the flute reports by a slight tool of six down. And that is being used. Because you can do it for long durations north lungs on the Isis but maybe for sixty ninety days yes and It gives you a lot of the fix physiologically that you will see. During unloading in weightlessness there are limitations to the model but you can actually exploit those limitations in understanding the mechanisms. If you know what are the differences from that simulation model to actually what's happening happening in weightlessness and seeing differences in outcomes official article variables. So it's a good model hit out war. Immersion has also been used but only for short periods in Russia. They did it for you know. Floating war is actually being very much like weightlessness. And they've done it for a couple of weeks but it's a very difficult model because you can't measure many things on the water It's more difficult than doing it in space. Actually but but these are dry. Mercian is is a model whereby you are not getting wetter search but still much more complicated to do research being submerged in water. Either those dreamers sheet sheet protecting the body against the water. The more pressure on your body and So we have chosen to do the hit down a bit study as an analog. So what questions are you asking. In these analogues that specifically relate to count measures. We have selected official article systems that Russell -ceptable to honor loading so they'll be multiple skeletal system a muscle bone because you on road from feet to hit but you're still loaded actually from front to back but as Muslims than when you upright and walking and so if you are recumbent Inactive in a bitterest sitting morning with fruit juice you can simulate many of the aspects of demilitarization of the bones as well as atrophy of the muscles and then using certain certain exercise techniques in a hospital position on a treadmill will loading with springs. You can actually simply what's going on on the treadmill is says they up. I see how efficient countermeasures work and protect boone and model. So that's one thing that's very kind of big thing and we have been very successful with that but you have to taste it. Finally on Isis. After doing you are not a lot but you can prepare for it and you can prepare for the prescription to be tested on assists to say crew term time and then also Understanding the flu chief the magnitude of flu shift into the hit because as you probably well know and this is our top priority Roy t to understand why the increased pressure in the head of the fluids effect the eye and how to fix and the brain so We're doing that now. We can also do that in a bit reciting This is a very recent breakthrough actually since the last post cat. PODCAST and That we can create manifestations of the Those Acura changes court the space slide Associated Neuro Orkla Syndrome very complicated the Saints Syndrome. That is how to fix the I and the vision we can do that and bitterest and use it as a precursor to log force based on. Wow so okay now. What about and this? You're thinking about. You mentioned something. That's sort of recent From from aretha breakthrough is a big thing for us. Yeah because using analog saves time saves time on Isis and We can prepare else. Must Be Konami shooting then we could before. So let's talk about the time it takes to Put together an experiment. And ask the right questions. You know what's what's happening to the human body is naturally is a good one And you have that in space. So what's happening that process from going from that point what's happening to the process of. How can we mitigate this problem? How how can we fix it? What does that look like? Well you know. There's this how long it takes to get it. IMPLEMENTS ISIS is different issues. So the whole thing for whole experiment. Well I can We we there's experiment called the fluid shift which is understanding the relationship between the shift of fluids in microgravity microgravity and the closer you know the vision changes the side chains of the eye and the that started when I came in twenty eleven. We selected it. And it's just a bad thing is just about to be It's just been completed in data collection. Space it's not competed as the story yet so it takes apparently off to nine years before it's published I can give you an example. I did in an experiment self before it came to an as an into my employment NASA and they're starting two thousand and six and ended in fifteen fifteen as a publication again. Nine years it takes about nine years for full story. Wow it takes a long time. But it's not the same as on in laboratory work in a normal earthbound sitting It takes your but that's because of the the access to astronaut small limited. I think we can test. About how many Laura on an annual basis about two or three four or five maybe four. Sometimes it depends. How many sign up to do the experiment that particular? Sometimes it's he's a longtime sometimes i. It's difficult okay now. You mentioned astronaut signing up this is you know this is this might be actually if I forget if we've mentioned this recent podcast But you know you can't force astronauts to do everything that you want want them to do. So what does that process. Look like from when you have an idea when you have some experiment that you want to finally get up on the International Space Station and getting them. I'm to conduct the experiment. I all the research goes through and Review Board so they look at it and determine if it's reasonable if the risk because reasonable if the the sci-fi wanNA collect makes sense and is safe And then the After the research is selected by the human research program around To go to flight it is presented to the crew members for them to decide if they want to participate or not. Okay so when you have this review board. And you're you're looking at different experiments that you want to conduct have a lot of them. Already been done on the ground and tested in some capacity and you want to now move them up to up to spaceflight spaceflight or maybe their brand new. And it's something that's very interesting and they WANNA do they wanna fly. It will partly yes and partly If you take it one start again like the fluids shift with one of our highest. Prioritize starters It consists of civil sub studies with different Principal principal investigators free so we select three Papaya into one. So each of those two. You know the procedures measurements have been tested in a laboratory sitting. I'm very thoroughly by these investigators and this is actually the reason. They were selected. Probably because they have a lot of experience but what is new is to combine them and I use them in an analog sitting or in space and that is totally different from on earth and therefore it's new every time and is something. That's very exciting. The first time between when experiment and you actually have to count on having failure in the first couple of experiments in before it became routine for the whole system but usually voice they will We do have some setbacks. You know with equipment. That doesn't work at some point in time because it's a very tight schedule. You have to make sure this particular verbal at this particular time because they have everything set up minute by minute phases of five minute by minute basis. Something like that and if they fail they have to escape a compact to it hidden use. Elisa's time for doing it. Maybe so That postpones things to some degree or not very much. I've actually extremely impressive. How it works for NASA and space extremely impressive? I am still imprisoned and It's actually Because of what Lauren. Oren who team and everybody will that background actually do because they have the experience from minute case of implementation that it makes it possible and that is also why they push back on the sciences. Like me since we think we can do everything space and we can't So that's that intactness extremely extremely important for success all right. Well if you keep asking for elements Elephants is going to. It's going to go out. We gave up that one giraffe. You're yeah no is very interesting because the two five is a good model for the hunter standing extreme fluids used on earth because when the GIRAFFE doors. It's hit is in danger. Having branded the message has to use certain conditions order to avoid having to higher pressure in the brain we do have a small problem. Debate does exist. Waiters were too high pressure in the brain as well and we are concerned about the extradition of fluid into some brain structures as well as your and. That's what we're looking into is not the same as raffle cost model bliss just most extreme in that regard. So that's why we have actually looked in. We haven't done in started per se from NASA but people have we have looked into the data that's been done and already on derives in Africa to understand some of those so looking into some of the some of the past some of what we've learned from previous spaceflight and I I guess we can incorporate outside of spaceflight 'em how what we understand about these shifting fluids may be like you said other species that relate to to spaceflight. How have we grown grown through time? I think we improved tremendously. We are using a lot of clinical disease models investigations and patients in order to understand some of the syndromes spaceflight. It's not the same. Because astronauts extremely healthy they selected to be healthy and they go to space and see some of the same chances as patients. But it's not the same in in total because they are not sick. I mean even space totally healthy. But they had some of the same manifestations is brought fully one example in if you look into the eye changes the vision changes in space it actually was simple and for longtime it was the same. It resembles an increase patient. The brain certain patients is called IDIOPATHIC cranial hypertension so too high over pressure because so some fruit disturbances in the production of spinal through some INCR- some patients with increased. They do have vision. Changes also some of them so we we saw the same thing but it turns out that when you compare certain measures in during spaceflight with that patient. It's not the same. You and the manifestations also so little bit different in the yard so you have some similarities differences. We still use patient models to understand differences to understand the mechanisms of spaceflight. And I just tell you be surprised every time and we are still being surprised by what is actually happening in with the food distribution space which. We didn't know before just a few years before I'm talking right now so Spaceflight is unique in that regard so Laura when it comes to what I'm hearing. Is You know you can study fluid shifts but you have to do it from all of these different perspectives. Right you have to. You have to look at history the FBI maybe bring in other species and maybe if you look at all of these different angle something might surprise you along the way. So what is human health countermeasures. Doing doing to manage all of the driving forces that Peter keeps coming to you with any all. I WanNa do all of this research. What do you do to manage and prioritize? What's important and what we're GONNA GONNA focus on that that's an excellent question We look at strategic planning and not just Implementation of specific studies look at a series of studies and what we do is really novel. If you look around the world are there really is no place. That strategically takes a series of studies. This plans it out as a project with milestones That consider where do we go next. So we we have what we call decision points where we stop and think. Where do you WANNA go next? Based on the findings we have and then carve out a path forward There really is no place that I know of in the world that takes approach. That takes the scientific rigor and puts management milestone rigors with it so that we can deliver on time with validated countermeasures. And so that's one of the reasons I'm really excited to be in the human research program is because there's a a lot of excellent research done with an ah but really the steppingstone approach and putting all the resources together. In a very funneled way to produce real countermeasures is is something novel and and special that we have at NASA so it sounds like that integration combining these elements are really important to have that that those checks and balances of the science in the management aspects of things will really piqued my interest. Though is when you were saying that if you're looking further out right you can only plan so far because when it comes to science something might surprise you and you say you might have to carve out another path because something thing might come up and say this is very interesting. We should dedicate resources in the future to investigating this path and going down that way. So what does it. What does that like from the planning perspective perspective of planning and integrating all these things but doing it to certain point that has to include a certain amount of flexibility when it comes to discover new things yes we each year here we get a chance to to replan and again we have these decision points where we can stop and pause? Peter and other scientists can review all the scientific traffic findings and if this sumptious that went into our plan and our resources aren't valid anymore. We can bring that story forward that something that the Human Research Program Really encourages us to do is to be able to change our path at the science does surprise us or I should say when the science surprises us. Yeah so naturally being human health countermeasures. Where we're going through all the elements of human research program? You've mentioned human research program. We're going through all of these elements. They're not silent right right. You're not making your own decisions and going up your own little chain. There is cross talk with all of the other elements to make sure that everyone's in line and I think one of the more are interesting things that we've discovered at least talked about in some of these. Recent podcast is that you can come up with an idea for a countermeasure something. You may realized maybe we should implement this and this is the best way to counter these possible effects but then discovered that these countermeasures produce their own side side effects. And now you have to investigate those and make sure that it's not going to effect too too much downstream. So what does that like relationship wise with all of the other elements and making making sure that you're talking to one another and realizing the effects of these decisions we definitely have Integrated projects where we're working on a same goal with other elements. In fact. I was the element manager for human factors and behavioral performance and recently moved to human health. Countermeasures So we're definitely are well integrated and just like other managers have Done this cross training. We are familiar with the other areas. And then we organize Organiz these projects. I don't know if you want to mention the. CBS project is one of the scientific projects that we yeah. That's one very good. For example of integration with between his plans so we have three different disciplines being integrated in that product. One is all the more more work we are doing since immoral means the balanced system and the relationship between what you see what you feel balanced wise in the inner ear as that's what you feel from your limbs and muscles integrated into keeping balance. I mean walking as a human being. Shouldn't be possible when you look got it because it should be very just Thomas to one outside of back and forth because you're very long compared to the support of your feet but because since motor system and the nervous system system and recreations all the time in the balanced you can keep your parents all the time now. That's more difficult after spaceflight. So that's one issue. We have that you are totally confused like a drunk person. We've been doing during the two months after they hadn't been drinking. Just make sure but it looks like sometimes and therefore we want to mitigate that that's one exempt so that is now being integrated into research with everything that's going on the brain apart from that particular issue you know condition as well as perception and memory and things like that Behavior and so that combining those two piece of research and then we also So we we are looking into behavioral behavioral scientists as sensory motor and the cerebral structural changes of the brain in one part in order to understand our action between the different systems. So actually actually this very interesting for me. Because before I came to NASA I did never. I had never worked took over behavioral scientists psychologists and actually has a medical doctor. You don't really regard these people and then you come to NASA and you see the what they doing very very important potent for the brain function and for your balances so We work together now renovated very day by day basis. And there's a structure for that at Nazar so to do that. So that's created by the marriage like Laura and her colleagues with scientists would never invent scientists are very silent and very focused on their own performance. The ultimate selfish now this take out of the scientists at NASA by the management system. Making much better sign so I think everybody agrees. It's a good thing that you have to be forced to it sometimes terms and that works where will it actually limits resources being spent it makes more efficient. You have better sciences way but it's also it can be difficult at times to have people understanding how to work took it put. That's the tasks basement. So when you're working together and oh you are trying to come up with decisions for the future on what things to implement for spaceflight when it comes to human health countermeasures. What specific countermeasures countermeasures? Part do you actually take to the table and and try to enforce or what I what is your perspective to the table The perspective of Said You. You do the resource to understand I what's going on The next thing is what are the mechanisms. The search thing is based on that out biggest risk ask and then fourthly out of mitigated business sir and the mitigation is the treatment against the counter action of what that weightlessness business does to that system. So one example again issue have food shifts to the hit increase pressure in the eye. And you're not you're concerned about the vision changes changed but Permanent damage to the eye and some parts of the brain. You have to move the fruit back. How do you do that in space? Well one way of doing it is maybe a to draw back by some pressure lower body to keep the drawing the fruit back and maybe do that intermittently at some point in time maybe be enough or not. Enough to mitigate the effects of that those manifestations so that's a counter may be a box around the lower body that has to be delivered to NASA to fly in deep space to mitigate this issue if it appears in the person so that that's the that's what we that's one vision for. That is more complicated than that. Shopping things simple all the gum. and and the fluid loading after landing so people don't think because of the order static in Torrance It could be We have immune changes in space. WHEREAB- is the confined environment and stressful environment and uses changes to the immune and system? That makes More susceptible to infections and allergic reaction so he says too much an ethics performance. We have to mitigate that by nutritional nutritional countermeasures. Better Food Maybe some pharmacologically June. Some medication that is not harmful Aspirin actually hopes to the as well as some other medication and then also Changing the procedures the operational environment so the strays his fullness on each individual so things like that okay. I like the steps that you kind of laid out kind of figuring out. What's the problem understanding the mechanisms? You mentioned risks and it seems like one of the one of the biggest parts that this organization contributes to. Is that next part. Once you identify a risk identify identify. Maybe how impactful is to the success of the mission. This is where you start investigating. Well how can we counteract his two system. You're over the hills that that could pre- you have effects of Weightlessness Jong longtime can create some effects on maybe boone immunization that lasts forever and and then there's the two menu for a lifetime if you created invite so that's one health risk. There has to be vindicated for ethical reasons as well and then you have performance they commence performance at not not really health risk but make sure A dangerous mission because performance Tulu. And therefore you have to mitigate that also doing these at these different different types of countermeasures so the behavioral scientists are very concerned about performance and we are very concerned about the risk to health Tehelka. That's where the difference is okay. I would say with us into motor system and the balance disturbances is more performance oriented because you usually recover a couple of days. Soft landing on a printer surface. But I mean for those two first days you need to be able to do something in order if something happens when you land on Mars has to be able to get auto vehicle and interior space suit or something happens it immediately. And therefore to mitigate the okay so this is where this is where you're starting to understand where these different the elements are coming into play. We've already done. I think it was part. Two of this series was on the human factors and behavioral performance. You said they're they're trying to answer questions better trying to maximize the performance of these astronauts but it sounds like when it comes to this organization. It's more about making sure that they are going to be healthy throughout all the the performance. But you're correct. But also for for behavioral scientists. They also concerned. About of course the damage to the brain that may be held oriented. So yeah yeah so it does cost all So when it comes to Laura you you've mentioned some of the your your past experience with crew training and involving the crew and you there was there was elements of human factors there as well coming to human research program being so close to the science and things. How has your perspective changed? Since is that previous role and now looking at how the science is done From that end of things I think gained a lot of respect for scientific community munity. The way they approach things in it can take some some time in real thought to follow what they're processes are But it's very rigorous and so we have a human system report that's independent of the human research program and and what they do is help educate us. It's a team of doctors. Astronauts managers that help characterize for each of our risks what the likelihood of that risk occurring is and what the consequences for different types of missions And so they they color against our risk and that helps us prioritize for example when Peter was talking about the the San's Risk that is considered a red risk and therefore it is a high priority because because the likelihood and consequence is considered very serious And so I think we have a very rigorous Methodology Collagen for how we approach things how we prioritize them And installed these challenging questions for exploration. So yeah that. And that's a big key. Point is when you're categorizing identifying these risks you mentioned a couple of them but when you sounds like there's a red probably a yellow and green right those the other ones but when it's red that would and correct me if I'm wrong. Be a severe risk to the health of the astronaut and perhaps the success of the mission. Yes usually it's considered either under Operational mission impact or long-term health. I say okay. Yeah these distinctions are very important but you know it goes together. One example is city station of the muscles strings. If you don't exercise probably in space because you deactivated weighted by weightlessness that. That's a fixed both health and performance. We need to find our how strong to have to stay in order to perform well enough off you may actually accept some ticker tation to a certain level and defining that it's not easy but that's what we've been doing a long time and but also this pigment hills if you have too much of Tation the Muslim because then is very difficult to reestablish restraints. So if you get too far down people in wheelchairs of totally issues model you you would never be able to. We exercise them back to normal. So I mean that's both a hills and performance performance Aspects everything we do the first is performance. And then you have a fix on hills. Okay so if we're looking at the international space the station now. We have twenty years almost twenty years continuously of human habitations lot of experience when it comes to astronaut living and working in space for a long time so if we take a snapshot of today what countermeasures are in effect now to ensure the health of the crew when they're on six month missions aboard the International Space Station yes One is the exercise system on ISIS is very efficient. It works it protects born in Moscow pretty well and but the challenge is to have a smaller vehicle going into space. Because you can't use that big exercise system but it works so we know that we didn't know that maybe twenty years ago we didn't know that so we don't that now and we know what kind of doting to expose the body. Forty two in order to keep Boone Mosley intact at a little. That's acceptable and all one is the landing avoiding or mitigating gating fainting by the government and the food loading this has been totally quantified in detail. It has worked for a long time but we didn't quite know how well but now known roadworks off the laundry space light and That will be the Kara Metaphor or static intolerance in the future so these are very very strong countermeasures and then we have Konami so like we don't have it for the saints. which is the most important problem? We have right now but we have ideas that baby moving fluid from the body to the lower body using not a box but kind of developing developing a box into a portable structure in on the body of the conflict in space and still be foaming winning off with that on to kind of suet round the part of the body that was brought back on a continuous basis. So but that's vision. It hasn't been developed yet and Mitigating and counteracting the immune changes that missing space and we have improved a lot on that on is his without is this. What's the problem would still be probably one of the most important ones but now the kind of being degraded to a lower level because it turns out that the exercise system proceeded yes? We are using the food eating The medications that they have not using regularly for you all of that in combination mitigates many of the immune changes inches and has improved over time. That's been shown recently by elite scientists to crucial so. This is very promising but we still have some way to go in order to Megan forty efficient. And then you have. The sensory motor system has been totally characterized after fight so the balanced system. The the confusion the drunkenness described to this. They're not wrong. Don't drink and is is except the rumors on the Mir space station. But I don't think he's true they did smoke on me but it didn't drink so maybe a little bit but I assist we don't do that. And therefore so they are not performing that characterization tation of what systems affected to what degree how long it takes to compact to normal doing nothing has been extremely any of Albert falls to develop the right countermeasure and the communists and always actually also part of the exercise system and we still need to take some additional countermeasures in order to to make it more efficient. You know now what you need to preflight how to train people to have a better balanced system even after six months or more flight so that is a huge advantage for our future missions which we didn't have before the eyes out the Isis. I don't think it would be possible to go into deep space on. Mars with years of experience is not possible to do that. That is so important and it's actually really coming to light. Just how important important exercise is in all of this. When we're going through all of the countermeasures that are implemented right now exercise? You got the bone muscle check It helps a little little bit with the immune side of things check. I wouldn't have thought that one before But but countermeasures can come in all these different shapes and sizes you got the exercise naturally yes the whole the whole way that Astronauts live and work in space having exercise in the food and sleep and everything maybe isn't countermeasure by itself. You mentioned technology certain technology. Gee to help with making sure. They don't faint when they come back. which is huge right so Countermeasures can come in all different shapes. It's absolutely fascinating how that all works six and is implemented and I think the biggest takeaway here is the the fact that you and you mentioned this. Several Times Space Station was get all of this. Space was persecutor. All of this and it's it's been worthwhile to do this because it wouldn't have been possible to go into these laws without the space station. We still need it by the way we would like to use it more it. It's available at least twenty twenty-five but I think it needs to be extended beyond that because I have difficulties envisioning that we shouldn't have a platform permanently in orbit around the earth when we are preparing at the same time to go to the moon and Mars but is of course of two people that highly close platform is has been proven to be valuable of course So you know we have countermeasures that we know to work on the space station because we put them into put them into work now and they're they're keeping the astronauts pretty healthy. I'm remember I forget who talked to recently. It said that there are some instances where astronauts come back healthier than they are maybe stronger in a way because of how much work out which is pretty awesome I I know there's talk of of one year missions Because you know the one of the main things that may not be apparent from what we've described so far how important the International Space Station is but it's a test platform. It's a great way to test stuff real close so that when we do go to the moon to ultimately to Mars that we have a really good understanding think of what's happening to the human body so what additional insights might one year mission provide us well One big big question is rationing of space light and duration of being exposed to weightlessness. We know for six months. You Can Prevail Vale. UNMITIGATED WITH A lot of resources being used to do that. the Russians have had five persons as five individuals in space for one year old United States has had one close to one year. And then it's mostly six months. So are we. Experience will longer to raise. The flights in six months is very limited. And the research has been done is very limited The record was done by Valery. Polyakov in one thousand nine hundred eighty five when he landed in Kazakhstan after four hundred thirty eight days in space in one continuum and he did very well but here the exercise a lot and he's also medical doctor knows what to do not ought to do invite so that was successful as only one person and the testing afterwards probably also be limited compared to what we would like to do today so we are planning one year missions in ten saw picks In order to have strong statistical basis aces fall conclusions and doing many of the same experiments. We've been doing in the past during six months flight in order to see if adding six Mons John's will make things were if so could we be gate and counteracted with the current countermeasures is exercise efficient is immune chain still being improved fruit or will they be worse. What about the flu shifts? Will that be stay at the same level be improved away. We don't know that. And that is pivotal for preparing go for longer duration in deep space so it's duration and also creating a baseline for what we will later find signed and exploring deep space Because when people are going to the moon and Martha would be good longer longer to rations needs to be compared to doors orbit because the deep space radiation is added to that space which we don't have now indoors orbit so you see the effects of radiation and to ration- in combination nation at that time so we with one emissions around the earth creating a baseline for those tests. Okay so Laura how does The Countermeasures Element Human Health Countermeasures. How are we taking these ideas? These priorities that we have you know we really want to do. We want to test one year mission. we want to have all these analog studies that debt study human health. How do you take all of these ideas and implement plumet in the future both in the analog direction but then also ultimately in flight to test crew members for long periods of time we take all the scientific strategy and we make a pristine scientific strategy? That is understandable By the managers and then we start balancing it against the facilities that we have The money we have the skill set the research community we have and Have a pretty large spreadsheet And then we formulate a workable plan based on that until we oftentimes some back and forth Because we might have to make some compromises to the ideal science strategy she because of schedule pressures another schedule pressure. We have to Honor of course is to deliver on time so if something is needed needed for an artist mission if something is needed for a long duration mission we have to understand when those dates are and make sure we build a schedule that meets associates So it's a real partnership between the science and the management and that's why we're designed the way we are to kind of work together closely and put together something that's scientifically ideal but practical Are we looking at certain things for our. You know budgeting certain ideas is our efforts are elements towards more questions that we may want to answer on the moon with Artemis programme because maybe the countermeasures Kinda measures are good for microgravity the gravity Sherpa. Are they going on the moon where they translate nice is there that effort already in human health and countermeasures. Now I'll ask Peter to expand on this but he's already brought up the the radiation so with the shorter duration missions of course we lose duration. But we're going to gain some Radiation Information and will up have smaller is located more confined environments. So we'll be losing some some stressors Like duration but gaining other ones that that are important scientifically. Yeah one one big unknown when you mention the moon but you could also mention Mazas. Nick step that is to understand Lavar gravity on the moon and fix the human officially is not known is is is is virtually impossible to similarly that in in an Jean Miot on earth so The ideal thing would be to have youth center field in space being rotated at civil like the moonlight. I G. O.. The Martian Jeez that would be perfect for testing that without going there. Actually but it can't be done for technical reasons so we don't know that and therefore we need to do a lot of testing undoing the surface when that comes possible if as a donor base ever to do this and I guess will be in. The trend is to the end of the trainers and we will do testing to see if one six G with very low by the way protect somehow against leans the negative fix below the environment. So we don't know that and we don't know what the thresholds are for those protections and we don't know how Russian tea will work. That's the whole point. Three eight percent earth grabs you more than one third. So we don't know that and my guess would be that that the moon is very much like weightlessness us and there's actually some protection on Moss. That is good. Because it will decrease our resources for medicating some of the negative effects and that that makes it more possible to stay for a long time. I think that's a perception I. What did we don't know this Beulah guests and I can tell you every time I guess? I'm inquiry so we need to do the testing. This is where the good research comes into play. I think one of the thing that I took away from that which I find interesting is You know you talk about microgravity and we we talked about the for example exercise as being implemented as a countermeasure right now in microgravity. Sure you know exercise is probably we important. You said you're guessing is probably important on the moon but I think the word threshold came came up to my to my mind because maybe it's not quite the same you know because it's a lot of time dedication that much exercise. So at what point are you mitigating the effects but still being efficient in the way that you're doing exactly that's one of the questions we're asking you so it's an excellent question. We can't answer right now. We need to do some of the tastings we can simulate a during parabolic flight where you can find different intrinsic tourism and you can do it at these levels. But it's only for twenty seconds and it's preceded by Heidi levels that disturbs what. You're observing during the low delivers. But you can do something you can simulate in the war with certain kinds of loading you can delude people by using heus called articles. By the way I'll I'll go see us and But it's not optimal because then you don't have the flu if you do that and you'll do it on the war you have the flu pushes within your. Don't you have the resistance of the war. You don't so I mean it's not the same thing so we need to do testing on the moon and that's hopefully what will happen in. The twin is very exciting. Time Laura M Peter Thank you so much for coming on the podcast going into detail about human health. Encounter human health countermeasures Really a pleasure talking to you today. Thank you thanks for having us on a card. You're going to bring your own faith. Hey thanks for sticking looking around really good conversation. We had on human health countermeasures with Laura Hallway M Peter North today very interesting conversation really hope you enjoyed it. This is again. Our forth forth in our six part series on the human research program does a lot more to check out. You can find us on NASA DOT GOV slash podcast to check out us as well as are many other colleagues at NASA. Who are all doing podcasts? Right at that website. If you want to know what's going on in the human research program great website for that to NASA dot Gov Slash H. RPI repeat you can really get a breakdown of what they're doing and find out how to get involved in some of the research. We are on the NASA Johnson Space Center pages facebook twitter and Instagram. If you WANNA talk to US use the Hashtag ask NASA on your favorite platform to an idea for the show. Just make sure make sure to mention it is for Houston. We have a podcast. This episode episode was recorded on November Nineteenth Twenty nineteen. Thanks to Alex. Perriman Greg Weisman Pat Ryan nor Moran Belinda Toledo Jennifer Hernandez Brett Redden. Then Emily Maldon and the human research program team for helping to bring this all together and thanks again to Laura Ballwig's N._p._R.. Norsk for taking the time to come on the show. We'll be back next week.

International Space Station NASA Laura Peter NASA Isis official NASA Johnson Space Center Boone Mosley professor United States International Final Space Stat Houston Konami Europe Gary Jordan University of Copenhagen scientist Space Medicine John Glenn
Welcome Home, Bob and Doug!

Houston We Have a Podcast

1:12:41 hr | 9 months ago

Welcome Home, Bob and Doug!

"Houston we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space. Center. Episode one fifty, nine welcome home Bob and Doug. I'm Gary Jordan and I'll be your host today on this podcast bring the experts, scientists, engineers, astronauts, ultimate. What's going on in the world of human spaceflight. Bob Bankin and Doug Hurley have returned to planet earth after sixty four days in orbit bacon in Hurley splashdown in the Gulf of Mexico off the coast of Pensacola Florida on the afternoon of August second twenty twenty concluding the demo to mission and making history as the first human landing and the commercial in commercially built and operated spacecraft. Their mission was to test the capabilities of the new commercial space vehicle the SPACEX crew dragon for regular transportation of crew to the International Space Station but they contributed a whole lot more than that on their mission during their sixty two days aboard the station, they dedicated more than one hundred hours to scientific investigation working on experiments like droplet formation, electrolysis measurement, and Earth observation. Benkin performed four spacewalks was station Commander Chris Cassidy to upgrade the station's power system among a number of other items, routing cables, and installing robotic storage equipment, and is now erected record holder for the number of spacewalks and among the top for total hours spacewalking. After landing in the Gulf, they were taken to shore by helicopter and immediately flew back to Houston there they were greeted by family and VIP's from NASA, and spacex all who contributed to the success of the mission. They were able to say a few words before departing for some much needed rest but we got to hear from them a few days later for a day. They shared some fascinating details and perspective about their mission. So on today's podcast, we're going to replay those moments for here. So here's a replay of the welcome ceremony at Ellington Field in Houston Texas on August second two thousand twenty just five hours after splashing down and the crew news conference two days later on August fourth. Enjoy. County. In this first segment here, the words from Doug Hurley than Bob Benkin immediately after landing in Houston this was followed by some comments from NASA Administrator Jim, Breitenstein, and SPACEX CEO and Chief Engineer Elon Musk. All right. We're not going to stand right now for those of you who have done this before you know it's not pleasant standing for a few hours after you get back five hours ago we were bobbing around in the Gulf of Mexico so. Feel like it's pretty good that we got this far in five hours but. I think the biggest thing that we would both like to talk about is just a thank. You Steven Kathy here in in Lan. This has been A. Quite an Odyssey, the last five, six, seven, eight years, five years since Bob and I started working on this program. And to be where we are now I. Crewed flight of dragon is just, unbelievable. We said it before just a tremendous privilege to be part of this program to be part of NASA and to. Spend two months on the International Space Station with the. One of the greatest. Officers, crewmates, astronauts, Chris Cassidy just was a real pleasure for both of us. And I'm Sir Bob we'll talk about the spacewalks but just to see those to work. Out on the International Space. Station. You're not going to see anything like that. Again just was it was just amazing to be part of that and then. You know the flight of. Dragon on Falcon and then the re entry today it's it's a lot that process. As I said, five hours ago we were in a spaceship bobbing around making prank satellite phone calls to whoever we could get hold of. which was kind of fun by the way. You can send him the bill for the sat phone. But anyway we really appreciate all of you. Coming to say, hi, and welcome back it's. It's a little bit overwhelming to to see everybody here considering the things that have gone on the last few months since we'd been. Off Planet. Thank you again for. Coming to say, hi. And hopefully, we'll be able to share a lot of this mission with you. In a few months hopefully if not sooner but thank you again. First of all, thank you for everybody who who came out today I know with all the challenges everybody's wearing a mask with the situation that we're in. It's not trivial. Get this many people here to try to close in celebrate what we've accomplished. I think for both Doug and I. The thing that we're most excited about having accomplished with this mission is written right on that sign where it says launch America and then of course, Land America today. as we went through our years as astronauts here at the Johnson Space Center we got to live through a big chunk of the shuttle era and A big chunk of the assembly of the space station. When the space shuttles retired Win Doug. took his final flight to wrap that up. I think it was a sad day for us at. There's something special about having that capability to launch and bring your own astronauts home and. We went through a lot of years without that capability and I think we're both super super proud have been just a small part of the team that accomplished bringing those spaceflights back to the Florida coast and bringing that capability back to. As Doug mentioned we had the luxury of having a just a a super crew on board the. International. Space Station with Chris Cassidy with Anatolian Yvonne Evade just took a wonderful care of us. I can't think of anything that we could have had more. In place and ready for us when we arrived then what Chris Setup for us and so we're we're extremely thankful for him in his work to make things look easy for us. You know we didn't have the full training template that was out there. We had an abbreviated flow and and got to take advantage of. An opportunity if you will to try to take space station as we accomplish this test mission and so. I think we're both really proud of that and happy that it didn't become a distraction. We're able to accomplish the test mission objectives and work through those kind of dragon certified and in some sense to be ready for our return home when the time came to do that. And so it all just worked out wonderfully and so. today when we got the wake up calls from our boys. Telling us a little bit about what they were looking forward to a which was coming home and Theo's case getting a new dog It was it was a wonderful morning and we very much appreciate it and so again i. think this kind of comes full circle took years to get here. We've brought the capability back to America and we came home safely to our families and it took a lot of people a lot of time to make that happen and so Two, Kathy. Thank you for that. Of course, you had Steve as your right hand man for the most recent history at least, and we definitely really appreciate the hard work that you all had to go through to ensure that the contractors in this case spacex seem really could understand NASA and what we needed to be able to have in place to have. Human spaceflight be safe and the way that we wanted to to operate it. And I, think for the SPACEX team, we couldn't have asked for a more wonderful team to work with. You know we definitely are are old dogs and like some of our old tricks because it's not always because lazy sometimes, it's because we did it before. We know an easy solution and we try to share that with folks, and that's really as we go forward to. Further. Activities. Whether it's an low-earth orbit to the moon or beyond we need to figure out the best way to share what NASA knows with a contractor team and help them be successful as possible and I think, maybe we weren't there five or six years ago. Of course. But by the time we launched and certainly by the time we returned I think there was a very tight knit relationship between the SPACEX team and our team, and we work together to accomplish what we accomplished. So with that I just WANNA. Thank you all for coming out today and celebrate Nisa this victory. With Doug and I and recognize our small part of what was accomplished. Thank you all. I've been told I'm not allowed to hold the microphone and that's really hard for me to do. But I'M GONNA take my mask off for just a few seconds here and just say thank you to everybody who participated in this Il. We just saw Bob and Doug and I think all of us are going to have memories now for the rest of our lives when they launched in fact, we'll have memories of the day that they didn't launch and then three days later coming back and doing the whole thing again, not knowing whether or not. They were going to go fifty fifty on the weather and then sure enough. The skies opened up and we were able to launch Bob and Doug. I want to say a few words just about what champions they are beyond just being the first crew to fly on dragging. It goes beyond that they knew that when they were doing this, it was a test. They also knew that they were going to be responsible for conducting a lot of operations on the international, space station for a period of months to include what ended up being four spacewalks. Spending that extended period of time on the International Space Station, and then flying back and amazingly coming off the jet just right now after being. Weightless for the last sixty, three days coming off jet sitting down and doing a public event. And I gotTa Tell You I've never flown into space but for me, that's that's not normally done. It's very difficult but they wanted to take that opportunity to connect with the American people on this momentous occasion and I can't say how? You just can't put into words how important this was for our country to have access to space again from our own soil. So again I know they left but congratulations to Bob and Doug and their families what an amazing day for the United States of America I would also say that what we just saw is the beginning of what will be a whole lot more activity in the future right. Now, when we talk about commercial crew, we're GonNa go for the Dragon we're GONNA go from development and operations. Of course, we're always GONNA learn and we're always going to modify but making that transition from development top. is going to be a challenge, but the NASA team is up for it. But it goes beyond that because we still have star liner and we need to get star liner. Fine. and. Then we've got to get a Ryan flying and we've got to get starship flying and we've gotTA. Get. What's head. A lot of stars. Absolutely. So look there is a lot to do in front of us, but here's what we know. We know that when members of Congress come together in a bipartisan way and they fund NASA amazing things can happen right now we have before the House and the Senate the biggest budget request in NASA's history in nominal dollars. By the way right now we have the biggest budget NASA has ever had in nominal dollars. Now, if you look at real dollars, Apollo might have. US beat by a little bit but we're heading the right direction and next year if we get the budget request that is before us right now next year, we're going to go up and order of magnitude, and that is necessary because today we're flying into lower orbit and in a few short years, we want to be flying to the moon and not just go once or twice but we want to go sustainably with a purpose. We're going to the moon sustainably. WE'RE GONNA learn how to. Live and work on another world for long periods of time, we're going to use the resources of the moon in order to live and work, and we're GONNA take all of that knowledge onto Mars that's what we're able to accomplish because of the bipartisan support we've had in the house and in the Senate for the budget that we have right now, and what I'm asking for our members of Congress to do is look at what we've done with what we have and if you fund us. At our budget requests level, we will be on the moon and we will be successfully on the moon with our commercial partners and with our international partners. So today was an amazing day. It was a historic day. It's been nine years since America launched and landed from its own soil, and yet here we are. But in the next step is we're going on to the moon and then onto Mars this is about momentum it starts today and finishes when we put an American flag on Mars. Alright I've got the honor to introduce somebody. Who we are very grateful for to help us accomplish this mission. I've said it before and I'll say it again. NASA seeks to be. One customer of many customers in a very robust commercial marketplace in lower orbit, and we want to have numerous providers that compete on cost and innovation safety and I will tell you there was a moment. Maybe, not even a year ago Kathy leaders. You can tell me how long ago it was when. We had some significant challenges. We might have had a few disagreements on parachutes. We might have had a maybe a disagreement on. You know maybe maybe we need to change the titanium and because of its reactively with. Nitrogen tetroxide and. I sent a tweet Ilan and I know you remember this? And since we've had a number of dialogues, I sent a tweet and I said that it's time to deliver and I tweeted at Elon Musk. And I wanNA tell you Alan. You responded absolutely. magnificently. And you have. In fact delivered you have delivered beyond anything any of his would've expected. And I will also say that all of the reports I'm getting from all of the teams on commercial crew is that this mission went as good as we could have hoped and we're so grateful for the team at SPACEX, the great team and NASA commercial crew program and all of the operators that helped us to get to this point. So I just WanNa say thank you Alon Musk the time is yours. Thanks Jim back. After these great words that were spoken. I I'm not sure I have much to add this. From. Bombing Dog Jim. But. I think what what does heralds really is fundamentally a new era in spaceflight a new era in space exploration where we're GonNa go to the moon, we're going to have a base on the moon. We're GONNA have send people to Mars have and make life multi planetary and I think this this day heralds a new age of space exploration. That's what it's all about. This is the result of incredible incredible amount of work. From. People at spacex people at NASA Hey Kathy. So much. Eighteen years. This has been eight eighteen years to. Finally fly people to to Overton back and. I mean I really came because I just wanted to. See bomb duck it's totally fresh. Like. Think goodness. Nothing, I. Like My. Like my entire adrenaline. Just dumped you know. Thank God. I'm not very religious, but I prayed for this one. Game. Thanks everyone. SPACEX, NASA. Ever. Everyone F. You know that that played a role in. In this, it's key suppliers. That that the incredible work. Thanks thanks gain and. I think, this is something that. The whole world can take. Some some pleasure in and and can really look at this as an achievement of humanity. and this you know these are difficult times when. You know there's there's not that much good news and I think this is one of those is one of those things that is universally good. No matter where you are on planet earth this is a good thing. And I hope it your day. Beg You. Next. Here is the news conference with and Hurley that occurred two days later, this was the first chance after splashdown for anyone to ask questions to them. So you'll hear the questions that were asked in real time while I moderated the conference, the crew answers quite a number of them and does a great job of describing on dragon and life aboard station. So here we go starting with initial remarks from Doug. Hurley. Well, it's great to talk to you today. We're just a couple days removed from splashdown off the coast of Florida near Pensacola. Excited to be back. We're already working through our. Exercise Rehabilitation Program to kind of get our earth legs back. We were lucky that we. We worked out pretty hard on space station and I think we both done pretty well up to this point. We're also lucky in the fact that we landed in some pretty smooth waters. Thanks to the weather folks. And so I think that helped a lot just. Incredibly, excited to be back incredibly excited the share the mission with all of you and another way and Just so proud of the SPACEX and NASA teams to get dragged through its first crude flight. flawlessly just. Almost. kind of speechless as far as how well the vehicle did and how how well the mission went. And all the things we did on board. With Chris, Cassidy Anatoly Novon. So glad to be back and. It's great to see how excited everybody was for our mission and follow it along, and we hope it brings a little bit of brightness to pretty tough twenty twenty. Thank, you Doug, we'll now hand it over to Bob. Bank? I think doug pretty much covered. Most of the things that either one of us would say about the mission itself I would just add that. It's a it's a humbling experience to be a part of what was accomplished with SPACEX vehicle just A. Team on the NASA side and this basic side to pull it all off it took years in the making I, think doug and I have been working at it for a good solid five years to get to this point and it's just. Awesome. To kind of see it to fruition, I, know that one of the things that were most proud of is is bringing launch capability back to the Florida coast back to America, and of course, landing safely at the end of all of that. So just a again humbled to be a part of a such an awesome team and odd by what they accomplished. Thanks to you both for those initial remarks well, now, open it up for questions. Let's start on our phone bridge I with the Gresh from the verge. Bob and Doug good to talk to you and congratulations on such a great launch leading up to this mission. The date of the launch was always so uncertain and you mentioned you would plan your life in increments of weeks or months at a time. So I'm I'm wondering how does it feel now after all that build up now that it's over and you have a little more certainty in your schedule again. Thanks. That's a good question that I don't know if certainties the right word at this point. I think for both of us, it still feels. Pretty Surreal and I know that's a little bit over but I don't know how to describe it. You know one minute you're bobbing in the Gulf of Mexico and less than two days later you're in a news conference so It's been a time to reflect and think about a lot of a lot of the things that went on in the lead up to the mission, the mission itself into the launch, the on orbit time the entry landing. But yet, we know we're done with the mission which you know we didn't even really know launch dates until just a few months before we launched we didn't know the duration of the mission until. A few weeks before we came home and so I guess it's Nice in that in that respect to be back with our family and our friends here at NASA. And working through. The post-flight activities that we have and they're pretty pretty well scheduled for the next few weeks for sure. In fact, there's a lot of stuff to do over the next few weeks. So we're hoping at some point just to take some time off and share a little more time with our families since they were the ones that really had to sacrifice over as Bob said over the last five years. Because we were, we were mostly in California, and we were mostly obviously the last two months in space. Next, we'll go to Andrea line filter from the. HOUSTON, chronicle. Welcome home. Stop. You gave a really great description of what it was like to launch in the cruiser. Again, I was hoping you could give us a similarly vivid account of what it was like to land. Thank you. Thank you Andrea the the landing was I would say it was more than what Duggan I expected. Things are always pretty smooth as you work through a Deorbit burn because of course, you're you're still in low-earth-orbit while you take that little bit of energy out that it takes to lower you into the atmosphere start the trip home. As we come descended through the atmosphere, I personally was surprised at just how quickly it all the events transpired. It, seemed like just a couple minutes later after the burn was complete, we could look out the windows and see the clouds rushing by it too much accelerated rate. One of the things we didn't have a lot of time to do during our time Dr Station with how busy we were was to really focus on the earth for an extended period of time and enduring flight dragging. We were able to do that and probably had a pretty good feel for the the rate that the earth was moving below us and we could definitely tell things we're picking up quick after we started that burn. Once, we descended a little bit into the atmosphere dragon really came alive it started to to fire thrusters and keep us pointed in the appropriate direction. The atmosphere starts to make noise you can. You can hear that rumble outside the vehicle and the vehicle tries to control. You feel a little bit of that Shimmy in your body and our bodies where much better attuned to the environment. So we could feel those small rolls and pitches in your eyes and all those little motions were things that we picked up on inside the vehicle as we descended through the atmosphere the thrusters were firing almost continuously and I think. This. The sound that that makes I did record some audio of it but it doesn't sound like a machine. It sounds like an animal coming through the atmosphere with all that all the puffs that are happening from the thrusters and the atmospheric noise it just continues to. Gain magnitude as you as you descend down through the atmosphere and I think we both really really noticed that aspect of things all the separation events from the trunk separation through the parachute firings were very much like getting hit in the back of the chair with a baseball bat, just a crack, and then you get some sort of a motion associated with that usually pretty light for the trunk separation but went the parachutes it was a pretty significant jolt. And a couple of jolts as you go through the disrobing of the parachutes as well and so. All the way down we were talking about it I think I took a line from MMA old movie that Doug and I were both familiar with at one point because under the g load of about four point two. I said run a gift from copy. You know much like I'd seen in an old movie that we watched because that was really the feeling that we had, and that's the best way to describe it if you've seen. An old movie that happened to have some guys. who'd been in a centrifuge? That's what we felt like. When the time came to splashdown I. Think we were watching the tinder, which is a GPS altimeter. So it's not super accurate everywhere that you're located in. So we got to. Below zero for altitude on that indicator, which was a little bit surprising and then we felt the splash and we saw it splash up over the windows. It was just a a great relief. I. Think for both of us at that point and I can't say enough about how well the SPACEX team trained us. They provided us some audio clips of what it was like inside the demo one vehicle so that we were familiar with all those sounds and. Reassuring is not quite the right word because we think of it more in technical technical terms as you know, pilots and engineers riding along with that vehicle. But when it performed as expected and we check off those events we were really really comfortable coming through the atmosphere even though help it felt like we were inside of an animal. Let's go to David curly from the discovery. Channel. Pop what a description welcome back to both of you I have a lot of technical questions but let's do the fun question and the Big Question Bob Did you leave something for Megan you don't have to tell me what it is. We'll spaceships leave it there. and. You said, you would talk about the historical meaning. Afterwards here we are big picture. What is this? Gentleman up. Well inside the vehicle you know it's it's not something we don't do. Is leave things behind we do our best to keep it in ship shape we did leave a patch. Inside the vehicle there's a demo one sticker that we added and we did give the ship a name endeavor, and I'm hopeful that they'll be able to keep both of those things as they go forward and at their their decal to the interior, of endeavor. For. Me From the historical aspect that I think they're certainly the first US crude vehicle sense the shuttle nine years ago. Certainly. Personally. It's it's significant because I was the last shuttle pilot and then the first Commander Dragon. And so that that's NEAT to think about. You know. And I certainly, maybe a year from now we'll. We'll think a lot more about it. I. Am More. It's more important to me is the is the historical aspect for NASA, and certainly for spacex say just were company that's only been around for a decade or a little more than that to to build a spaceship that takes crew into orbit and return them safely. Is that that part of the historical aspect for me is is probably most significant just. To be part of that for me is is also. By far the most important and one of the most incredible that I'll have from professional career. Just. To just share in that that journey that Odyssey, that. Endeavor as we as we named our ship. was just one of the true honors of my my entire life, but certainly, my professional career. Now go to Marcia done from Associated Press. Hi I'm wondering did did either of you realize real time that you were surrounded by pleasure boats filled with gawkers? Though soon after splashdown and if so were you concern and if if you were unaware of them were surprised to find that out afterward and Bob a real quick question Wednesday, the puppy arriving. Since Bob's got a a really important question to answer. I'll talk about the boaters. That we discussed. As a NASA space x group prior to one actually and. We certainly appreciate the folks wanting to participate in the event but. There are some safety aspects that I think you know as the administrator said, we'll have to take a look at it because it just can't can't happen like it did before. But certainly we we were not. An. It's mostly due to the kind of the way the windows looked after. After splashdown. So you know the the re entry. Is is a fairly dynamic event and you can see from you know just an overall view of the capsule. Reentry is a pretty demanding environment with the different. Scorch is on the vehicle and the windows were were not spared any of that. The look out the windows. You basically tell that it was daylight but very little out. So we didn't really see anything clearly out the windows until the SPACEX recovery crews got. Near us with the fast boats and then we could see a header to out the window. Yeah. I had absolutely no awareness of the the other flotilla that was out there until we were back on board. Go Searcher and in the medical facility. I just wouldn't add a little bit to that, which is you folks need to realize we were delayed with actually opening the hatch for an extended period while the teams really made sure that everything was clear and the vehicle was safe for us to exit and for them to get as many people as required to you know perform that extraction for us. So just a a word to the wise for folks who have ideas of upcoming that close again in the future that we take extreme precautions to make sure it is safe and. We do that for a reason, and hopefully, they'll appreciate that required really with US racecard operations. As far as the puppy goes, we're on a two week timeframe where we'll we need to teach my son a little bit about the things that are required to have a dog in the house and make sure he's comfortable with picking up his responsibilities associated with the dog then. I've done a lot of that with the phone from the space station over the last couple of months but now he's got to put his. In to get the dog bed in the right location and show me that he's ready to take on that responsibility and you know he's going to he's going to love that puppy and he's GonNa needs to bring him up right and so we're going to set him up for success. Otherwise It'll be my dog instead. Go to Robert Pearlman from space. I'm Bob and Doug, great to see you back on her. up until now after historic Nath I played like yours almost be given that something from the mission, the spacecraft or space would be headed to the Smithsonian. But given the commercial nature of your flight very little. Your missions equipment belongs to Napa and your spacecraft has already played the fly again. So we're up to you what would you like to see spacex donate to the national air and Space Museum or otherwise put on public display and might we see your son's agree to donate tremor? Well. They might make that agreement I'm sure they would request something trade I don't know at least a opportunity to go see where tremors at new home would actually be I think there's a lot of tremors out there as well at this point and so. I think that. could be that the marketplaces saturated with tremors. As, far as what I'd like to see donated I still think there's an opportunity for the history to play out and this capsule to still end up in the Smithsonian. Used and reused, and then find that permanent home spacex has done a wonderful job if you if you've ever visited or seen pictures inside the facility Darren Hawthorne, they do have hardware that they've flown or hardware that they've tested it and managed to put on public. Right, here we do have a here in Houston at the space center Houston they do have a first stage now that was used and it's it's nice to have that in full public view and I'm sure and confident that they are going to share pieces of the hardware with the public at large. To Hawthorne, there's a first stage a sitting right there on the corner of the property line there, and it's it's just awesome for people to see that hardware and be able to recognize it as as hardware that was used for for space missions and. Take a picture next to it and be a part of it, and so I know they'll do it, and if it was up to me I, think all this hardware has a home someplace in the future when it's used up, it's just not used up yet. Thank you we're going to switch to social media for just a second first of all, you folks from all over the world on twitter and facebook saying hello and congratulation Brazil England Canada Argentina the Netherlands all over the US just to name a few. But this seems to be a common theme this one's from Shinozuka. WHO GETS TO KEEP? Tremor I think we're probably GONNA go along the lines of I believe it's the NHL. Where the team that wins the Stanley Cup if familiar with that. Each member of the team gets to gets to have the Stanley Cup for a day or two and I think we'll probably work out something along those lines we just have. You know he spent some time at Bob's place and then he spent some time at our place and I think that's fair and then I. Think. At. Some point. Obviously, the boys will they're going to grow up and potentially outgrow trevor, and we'll figure out a good a good place for for tremor as well. Just like hopefully with endeavor and our suits in anything else that was associated with this mission it's just just a neat memory for Bob and is father's. To share this type of thing with our sons and We're just thankful that we were allowed to to take tremor with us and. And it's frankly just amazing to see the. Response, to tremor and how how much people enjoyed that part of the mission along with some of the other things. So we really appreciate appreciate that. Thank and thank folks for understanding that it was important to us. We'll take one more ask NASA question this one from Lien on facebook asking what's the first thing you eight after returning to Earth? Think for both of us. The first thing we it was the pizza that they had available on the jet that brought us back into Houston. So we had a pizza we we've done a lot of travel on the. Aircraft operation. Folks here at Johnson Space Center of aircraft over the last twenty years frankly whether it was thirty eight. Sore as we responded to cove it and use the larger airplanes to help us get from place to place from a training perspective and they always have a good plan for taking care of the crews that are on board and our landing day was no different than the other days they had us all hooked up and set up and. The pizza was waiting when we made it on board. Thank you. We'll now turn to the phone bridge starting with Eric Berger from ours, Technica. Hi Guys WanNa congratulate you on your your excellent timing. HOUSTON. In August is lovely If I'm asking a non tremor question were there any surprises during the mission it? All looks so smooth from the launch landing you know to US watching on the ground and it was it really that perfect like the vehicle perform that well or was there anything that happened like maybe went in a capsule on orbit and there was a funny odor or you know something that alarmed you during the two months you're up there or was it all just that smooth. Thank you. Frankly the the. Mission part of it. As well as the docked. Mission that we participated in expedition sixty three, but certainly the to mission. I personally expected there to be more. You know certainly not issues with the vehicle but some challenges or some things that were maybe not quite what we expected. I mean even on our shuttle flights we had things that happen on both of mine and I know you know Bob and I've talked a lot about his missions as well. They were things that happened that that were right out of a simulator A. Event and something that you certainly wouldn't have expected in a real flight but but my credit once again is to the the folks at SPACEX, the production folks the people that put endeavor together and then. Certainly are training folks. The. Went just like the simulators and Honestly from start to finish all the way, there was really no surprises and I think for me personally, I expected the entry to diverge somewhat by what we saw in the simulator and what I mean by that is as as a capsule. into thicker air the atmosphere. So somewhere around twenty k. down to maybe ten K.. Just prior to the drugs with. With, Dragon expected there to be some divergence in attitude control because it's a real tough problem for the ship as it gets into the thicker air to maintain perfect attitude and control, and at some point and design. This vehicle is for the drugs to come out potentially a little bit earlier than they normally would come out to kind of right vehicle. I fully expect that to happen and it did not vehicle was rock solid right up until the nominal drug deploy. Altitude and as Bob described, you could feel it. You knew exactly you felt the diesel you knew the drugs both worked, and then it was the same with the Maine's we felt the different stages of life and. Right to the impact in the water it was. We kind of had a feeling. It would be not as much as US landing as it was described to us but was going to be a pretty firm splashdown, and then you know how we bobbed even how we bobbed in the water and how the vehicle. Sat in the water. So. My compliments to space x and the commercial crew program and the vehicle performed exactly how it was supposed to and. You feel really good about crew one and what they should expect and what they should see when they fly their mission. Next is Chris Davenport from the Washington Post. Hey guys. Welcome back to see you two quick ones just looking for maybe Baba description of what it was like inside dragon when he was building that plasma was building when you cool what the was like and then maybe Doug if you could talk about how many call eight on the satphone and you called. Thanks. As we came through the atmosphere I, think we had a pretty good view out the window until the G. started building at least for me, my focus shifted towards the display content and the windows are down by our feet and so being able to look at those requires Kinda head motion and. Pushing your body around and so just didn't seem like the smartest thing to do you know as the vehicle was maneuvering and starting to put Jesus on to be turning our heads and trying to move around in the seats. At that point, we were trying to make sure that we were good and strapped in I do feel like I felt some warming of the capsule on the inside, and so the real notice was that when I did get a chance once the had come down to look out those windows again. Appeared as Doug described earlier, and so we kind of saw the clouds racing by and then the g load started to build up and we focused on. Monitoring the vehicle and. Paying attention to those small baubles that we could feel as it controlled the attitude and then There was not much to see out the windows by the time we had another chance to do it so. I think I'll just add I had an entry that was night entry and then a day entry and it's it's tough with shuttle even to see the plasma in the daytime, it's almost just this really thin pinkish hue that you could. In the front seats of the shuttle, you could pick up just very it was very difficult to see. So I certainly didn't expect with a full daytime entry like we had with Dragon, and then as Bob described the position of the windows relative to where we sit. Until the seats adjusted for the. The. Basically to get our heads more vertical than our fee. After we're under parachutes, you really have to work pretty hard. You just see out the windows and as far as your phone. Yeah that that probably was A. Pretty. Funny to hear that you haven't astronauts Colin whoever we can call but. There, there was a real reason for it. You, know Neko when he had his. Aboard onboard. So us they also have a phone where they're able to call folks but some of the numbers either weren't correct or weren't loaded. And as I think most people know in this day and age, we know very few phone numbers by heart like we used to know many years ago and so we wanted to. Get a test objective out of the way which was to call the the core station. At hawthorn and when we call to say, Hey, we would like to do that. They said standby and so we decided we would exercise our. Judgment and use the phone to call some other folks. So we called Anthony, I think at the at the Capcom Console the flight director console here and Hi. This is Bob and doug were in the ocean. And then we also called our. Wives who happen to be together I think they were here at mission control, and of course, they were excited and as all folks know. That have gone through this as a family member you're kind of helpless. Until you hear the voice of your of your loved one on the other end, and this was a great chance to reassure them that we were in the water we were. Okay. We were feeling good and then, and then at that point, we were still waiting on x, and so we just decided to call a few other people that we knew their phone numbers too and we got a hold of few but as anybody's ever used this APP phone. Sometimes they worked and sometimes they don't connect. So it was but it was a very successful test and we're confident that future cruises it. It's a good a good option for communication. Next is Stephen Clarke from spaceflight now. Guys Regulations on a successful mission and welcome back to Earth. Thanks for taking my question just wanted to you know this by all accounts was a very successful test flight. just based on your experiences can get One of the to comment on if you think crew dragon is ready to go for correlation missions to assess. Whether you're successful return. Thanks. I think both of us are in agreement No questions that the crew dragon. Once they finish the certification process, they do need to look at the data from our injury. You know it's not just the end users anecdotes of how well it performed. They will do a very thorough of you both on the SPACEX side of the NASA side to make sure that they're comfortable from crew perspective I think that it's a definitely ready to go. There are things that can be improved just like even with the final flight of the space shuttle I know Duggal tell you that there are. Things that could have been improved or what have been improved if flu one, thirty six, and so there'll be some things that will have some ideas about how we could make better to make things a little bit more comfortable or a little bit more efficient inside the vehicle for those crews. But from a group perspective I think we're we're perfectly comfortable saying a crew one is ready when they finished the engineering and analysis associate certification one thing I just like to add about that Bob and I talked many times over the last couple of years about the duration of the flight and for. A long part of that just you know the essentially the beginning of this year. It was going to be. The same length as the m one flight. So just a few days in space and I think. I personally feel a lot better even though there were some challenges dealing with the the duration of the flight and when when all that would come together. I certainly feel much better from from the crew, one perspective and subsequent flights of Having Dragon Dr Station for two months. Is a much better outcome for me. Then if we just been up there few days if you're asking the crew, one folks to be up therefore a full up. Six month ish type duration. I think they should have a lot more confidence that the vehicle does find. Mode Dr Station and there, and there wasn't anything that maybe wouldn't have been uncovered. Had We just been up there for just a few days? So I thought that was a much better outcome. We have genus Sinceri from ABC News Them. What mission would be on the big for you both next would you like to do? At least for me, I think in the short term is I transitioned to a support role. As you know, my wife is assigned to a SPACEX mission. We have a young son, and so I'll definitely be focused on making sure that her missions as successful as possible and support and her just as she did for me over the last five years with the uncertainty are launch dates and uncertainty in our return dates, I. It's definitely her turn to to focus on getting her mission accomplished while I take care about the things that need to be taken care of for our home life. Next is Elizabeth Howell from. Space Dot. com. welcomehome and wanted to know what kind of lessons learned or kind of advice that you would be getting to the crew one when they get ready to go. That's a great question. You know we have a tag up with those guys I believe early next week and I think we've mentioned before that we talked to them. Shortly after launch, and once we were docked just to kind of while it was all fresh in our memories. Data. Relay to all the things that we noticed or saw sounds and things that really can't be emulated very well in a simulator and things that would. That that would trigger you know any of the other. Training objectives that they're going through right now as they wrap up their and so. I think lessons learned they're always lesson learned. You know things that we did that maybe we could be more efficient about or that we learned that we thought maybe would work one way or. Maybe, better for another. But generally speaking I think it's more just relaying the experience and what we did in those particular situations and and also trying to. At least imagine what it would have been like to have four people in the vehicle rather than to we did some duct operation evaluations with four people and. We had Anatolian. Chris Act as the other two crew members and their vast experience in flying Soyuz spaceflight in general they had some great suggestions and we. We at the time, pass those things on in the debrief and and we'll definitely talk to the crew one folks about that as well. But. Yeah. There's a very formal process and then an informal process and we'll just try to pass on everything that we learned and what we think might work the best with a crew for. We have Joey Roulette from Reuters. and Bob I really appreciated that description of descending encouraging. You gave her earlier in the call and I was wondering, do you think there's anything SPACEX can or should do to make a crew dragons descent com or is that the way it should be and is that what you expected things? I think from a crew perspective you know really what's important is that you understand the events that the vehicles going to go through and know what to expect and so. The thing that I found most valuable having gone through that experience was something that the actually the launch team put together for us pulled together some asset video from both demo one and the abort test that they performed to show what the sounds and dragon were sync up with the video feed and so being able to watch that and hear the sounds and see what they corresponded to on the video from the outside tracking cameras that were in place was just invaluable from my perspective and really understanding what the vehicle was going to be going through and be comfortable as as we went through it and monitor it appropriately and so both Doug, and I, had confidence. Like we described earlier that you know the drugs had come out and they're reaping had happened according to schedule just based on being able to watch that video and hear the sounds and have it all sinked up. We just knew what to expect. This maybe sounds a little bit boring and I'm going to get probably some flack from talking about movie cliches again but. There's there's a movie groundhog day where they're sequencing through and everything predictable and for dynamic events like a spaceflight for asset and for entry, it really is invaluable as you try to control your body and come through that environment whether it's a g loading or it's the dynamics of pitchy on role moving around inside the vehicle knowing what to expect really sets you up for success to work your way through it and do anything that you might need to do in those dynamic situations and I think that that video that the space x team put together was just wonderful and. I. Watched it again on orbit and before we came home and I know. That will be in our list of things that we recommend to the crew. One guys if they haven't already watched it that that's something that they should of commit to memory and consider even having available on orbit. Next is Morgan Fall from business insider. I walk home and thanks so much for taking my question I'm wondering what you would like to be the partnership between Napa and going forward and what are you most excited about in this new era of human spaceflight. Thank you. Quali-, it's neat to see. SPACEX is. In competition to build the lunar, lander with two other companies. And we we've had as an agency. We've had a wonderful partnership with spacex from commercial cargo commercial crew and they just continue to. Work towards the goal of getting humanity out into the cosmos and it it's it's been a great relationship. It's been very beneficial for both spacex and for NASA and this once again, the success of DM to proves that it should be something that we should continue I'm excited. To see that happen it was it was a it was a lot of work to get from where we started five years ago now but. They're wonderful company to work with and they have some incredibly talented people. And I think there's plenty to come from the relationship that NASA and SPACEX have. From my perspective it really is critical that we continue to try to build on that relationship that Doug's referred to. It won't be appropriate if we take the next step, which is to restart with a different. NASA team in a different space x team, we really need to leverage those relationships continue with all the. Five. Years of experience that we have a figuring out the things that NASA can best share with spacex to make them as successful as quickly as possible that applies to all the partnerships that NASA sets up is figuring out the best way to communicate and share information is how we're GONNA cooperate to get to our objective and so I, just. Am really excited as we go forward that the relationships and the work that's the groundwork that's in place is going to be leveraged to accomplish even more great things in the future. Take one from Mark Roe from aviation week. Wondering what the primary question you're getting from your astronaut colleagues. Isn't what you're telling him about the experience. Actually we haven't had a ton of interaction with anybody given that you know when you get back from space you have pretty. Compromised Immune System to some degree. So we're taking every precaution that we can to try to stay away from. Most folks although there is. A lot of medical testing in rehabilitation that's going on, they'll be time to do. debriefs in I think as I mentioned before certainly with the crew. One folks. Coming up here pretty shortly. But yeah, we haven't seen a lot of them because we're just didn't in the stage of the pandemic where we're. We're still I think even the folks that are have gone to space are trying to distance and where masks those kinds of things. But we definitely know that there are a lot of questions. We've certainly got a lot of texts and emails and. Hopefully weekend describe everything from memory. That is pertinent and as Bob said SPACEX will certainly have a Stink video with audio for our assent, as well as our entry that that will be passed on for multiple crews for them to to us. I would say we're still in the face where Oliver astronaut colleagues aren't asking us for information. They now's not the time for that. They're asking us do we need anything or families well, taking care of are we in good shape and so that's their primary focus. Right now is you know taking care of the team, which is the astronaut office, and so I all the well wishes that come in are need anything is there don't climb a ladder, I'll change the light at your house. So all those sorts of things and it's just been wonderful how many folks have reached out to try to? Make sure that we're well taken care of after the mission that we we just went through and it's like that for every mission when crews comeback. Will now go to social media for a few more questions they're using. Hashtag, ask NASA this one comes from Natalie on twitter. What is the reconditioning process like to get reacquainted with gravity? We'll spend two hours every day with the. Strength and conditioning specialists, and it's essentially just a walk before you run literally. Type, process we do some stretching. We do some aerobic exercise. We do some lifting and some agility drills and it's it's you're pretty tired after the to our process and we just just started yesterday. So on day two. And it will continue for roughly forty five days and most most people really adjust in that time certainly before you get to forty five days, but it's a continuous process to get you right back to where you were preflight. We'll take one more from social media. One. From Leo on twitter what is the greatest lesson that a young person can learn from this mission especially in these challenging times? I think the greatest lesson folks can take from our experiences one of perseverance. Doug and I didn't get to this opportunity. This team didn't get to this success without years of hard effort. No challenges along the way doesn't build doing something complicated like developing new spacecraft and launching it developing new rocket, and then putting a spacecraft on top and launching it to the International Space Station is just a tremendous level of effort that's required to accomplish that and it's there are setbacks. Their challenges where you know rocket performance isn't what you expected or. Propulsion system on board a capsule isn't exactly everything that you thought it was and you have to adapt to those challenges and you have to overcome them and continue forward and maintain both optimism and paranoia as you go through that. Perseverance. So those are all normal things as you try to accomplish challenging task, and so I'm hopeful that are experienced the entire spacex teams experience and the NASA teams experience. One of just a the focused effort for an extended period of time you know can lead to just awesome results if you if you stay focused and so that message of perseverance is the one that I would want to share. Now, go back to the phone bridge starting with. Marina corn from. The Atlantic. Bob and Doug Welcome back what advice would you give to future crew dragon passengers who are not astronauts and a quick second question you've been close friends for years did your friendships survive this historic experience? All right. What advice where we give? The. Kind of the non-professional astronaut when they're flying on crew dragon. Purely that the SPACEX and NASA collaborated to build a tremendous vehicle that is very capable of the mission to go to and from low-earth-orbit safely. Comfortable vehicle. There are things that are just Aspect of flying in space that I think most folks don't quite realize or understand. There are times when it's uncomfortable there are times when. You, of course, you can't take a shower. Going to the bathroom is a challenge. But but I think in general. It's an outstanding vehicle and they should be excited to fly on board to get that experience if they're lucky enough to do it and. I. Think as far as our friendship, it certainly survived if anything it just got stronger being part of a crew with Chris Anatolia. Novon. it was just need to see the team developed. As Bob had mentioned before and I'm sure I did too. We known Chris for a long time I flew. With Chris On our first night together and. It. Was Really. NEAT. To see the expedition sixty, three crew develop and work through the last few months and. It was very, very rewarding and I think for me personally. I, maybe I didn't appreciate that aspect of it as much. You know going into the flight because I? Are Huge. Concern and challenge was was making sure DM to flew the way it ended up flying successfully and so. It was it was knee and just was such a huge advantage I think for Bob Knight. That, we are close friends that just the crew coordination part of it and Flying Dragon was almost via telepathy. Sometimes, we we didn't even have to say anything whether we were pointing at something or if we just. At that particular moment at that part of a display because that's what we knew would be the thing that was most important and. I just think that I know that doesn't necessarily always go into the selection process but I think in this case. When. We were selected to fly this mission together. It certainly gave us a distinct advantage over some crews and it was certainly very much appreciated by. Just as Doug said being able to add Chris to our friendship and. Anatoly Novon is is really how expedition sixty three worked out. You know it was US focused on the mission and Chris says the commander of the space station being able to shift into the support role when it came time for us to get docked and then us to shift into our support roles once we were on board the Space Station, of course, the spacewalks activities have various. Sink points where the kind of the leadership kind of moves around, and we were able to do that very seamlessly and. Part of that is you know related to just how close and how strong our friendships were kind of across the board. So and of course, when we came to the end of the mission and it was time to undock. Chris jump back into that support role again and helped us with the cargo transfer that we needed to put in place. Some of the powered playbook payload activities we just It was all very seamless folks understood what their responsibilities were able to cooperate and work together to make it all happen and get the mission done. So I would say you know our friendship is stronger and we added some folks to our circle as well. Mary Bender from cosmic perspective. Welcome Home Bob and Doug I wanna I thank you for sharing that with the on perseverance. you shared a lot of stunning images of earth while you were on station and I really enjoyed the perspective you gave with the caption that used and just wanted to ask what compelled you to share so much and what was your favorite location or feature to photograph. I. Think I think we can both answer that one. You know for me. I. Just. Every time you look out the window of the space station and and certainly. We didn't get the opportunity that I thought we were going to get you know based on the description of previous crew members we are time was. Used up a lot to make up for the fact that we were down to three crew members on the space station. Prior to US getting there and. And rightly. So the International Space Station program needed needed us to to work right off the bat, but the time that we did get to do that. The perspective that you have from low-earth orbit of our planet is just one of just complete awe of first of all, how beautiful the planet is and that there are no borders that you can see from space that the atmosphere. So thin and then literally every time you look out the window, you see something different and even more beautiful than the last thing you saw the last time you looked out the window and it's always different and. And maybe more. So this year than than in past years that that astronauts have taken photographs out the window. You know the the country the United. States and the world has been dealing with so much. Chaos and drama and pandemic, and all the things that have been going on in the world and. If it were me. Would make me feel better to see these pictures from space and so I, think we just felt like it was. A way to to maybe. Have Have Folks maybe have a distraction for a while and also to appreciate the planet been given you know is. Unique in that in that standpoint and as just beautiful to look at and it's I personally feel it's our obligation to share what we see because not everybody is going to go to space and. and to to just bring as much of the experience to everybody back on earth is something I. Thought was very, very important. I. Think for both of us, we didn't expect to have a longer duration mission. We expect to have just a few short days which would have really limited our opportunity to share the the station life aspects or the things that you can see from low earth orbit or from the Space Station with folks when we the opportunity for a longer mission I think we both wanted to take advantage of that. You know I think the earth below us a wonderful view just some amazing things to see I'm a little bit. I'm a physics train engineer background SORTA thing, and so I was really interested in the things that were examples of science or engineering or. Physics below us or above us that was happening and so whether it was light shimmering across the ocean surface or it was sunrises or sunset, and trying to figure out how to get a photo and share that. So that somebody else could have the same wonder that we have. When we get a chance to see at ourselves was what was really important to me. We had some interesting. conditions during the flight, we had a period of time where we were in continuous daylight. We got to do a spacewalk in continuous daylight, which was just A. Crazy to imagine you know being outside the entire time with with the sun up the entire time was just a strange thing to. Get your mind around and and we've got to have that experience. So as a part of that, I, think it took away the opportunities for us to get as many shots of the comment. Neo is that was. Rising kind of came in that same period. So we had too much light to be able to see it very much but. Just, all those things that you can see whether it's lightning or the city's at night or or look at the Milky Way and see the stars in the background or just see the glow of the earth and see that it is not dark even at night compared to the darkness of space. Just imagery that we wanted to share and maybe. Spark. Interest of the wonder that we were able to see whether it's a child or an adult that's out there so that In this year and years in the future folks can look at that and be inspired to have the kind of careers that we've had or chase a different dream than the one that we've chosen. Next is Irene clots from aviation week. Thank you. I realize you're still digesting all of this but if you if the decision work to you about win fly. Friends family other? non-professional astronaut. do you think that the system is maternal except or just for HAP- another two flight to have that kind of make them. That's a good question I think. If, we're me and it was a family member. Is Certainly, as Bob described, there's certification process at the that. That Endeavour has completed yet, and it will likely be weeks. And I think from my experience of flying fighters and testing fighters. A first flight. There's a lot of scrutiny on a first flight and there's a lot of work that goes into a first flight. But you can't let your guard down and you gotta take a look at the data. You've got to listen to the hardware and it's probably going to take a few flights. Because we certainly did our best and I think the teams did their best descript this flight to be a full up test flight but certainly things on dragon that could be tested more. And they're just for an example, we docked to the forward part of the space station. There's certainly the likelihood that dragon is going to have to dock two different docking port either the. Zenith. Zenith port that. Is Likely to be next for commercial vehicle and it may sound somewhat insignificant but it but it but it isn't, and so at all the software that needs to go in to the vehicle trajectory analysis and the things that they need to do in order to make. That possible and for our flight that was not possible the software hadn't been written yet to do those through that docking port. So just things like that. So I think it's GonNa take a few flights before. And I think that's prudent. Few flights before we can consider this vehicle completely tested and then as we all know. This space business like a lot of those technically challenging businesses. Is Not forgiving. So you the bigger thing to take a look at us to not let your guard down and don't just assume because the last flight went perfectly that the next flights go perfectly you have to you have to do that rigor and that analysis and that attention to detail, and you can't get complacent and you can never get complacent with with the space vehicle. That's all the time we have four questions today. Thanks to all who submitted questions and thanks to Bob in and Doug Hurley for taking the time to discuss this historic event demo to mission is part of NASA's commercial crew program. We have more mile dumps milestones coming up in the very near future. So for the latest please visit NASA, Dot Gov slash commercial crew. Thanks again for joining us that'll wrap up today's crew news conference. All mankind. The bring your. Hey thanks for sticking around I. Hope you joy enjoyed these replays of the welcome home ceremony and the crew news conference. They had some amazing comments during these fantastic and historical moments really after the mission and I'm glad to be sharing these moments with you today on the podcast we have more episodes of Houston. We have a podcast that you can listen to in no particular order at NASA dot Gov Slash podcasts. Some other podcasts here, NASA that you can check out while you go to that link, more milestones coming up for commercial crew program. The Demo to mission was to test and verify the capabilities of the SPACEX Dragon. We got the first operational flight coming up here soon later this year. So go to NASA DOT GOV slash commercial crew to see the latest updates there. We Houston we have a podcast or on the NASA Johnson Space Center pages, facebook twitter and instagram use the Hashtag. ASK NASA on a platform to submit an idea to show just make sure to mention it's for Houston we have podcast the audio for this podcast was recorded during the events on August second and August fourth two thousand twenty thanks to Alex Perryman Pat. Ryan. Moran Belinda Pluto and Jennifer Hernandez from the Houston, we have a podcast team. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you're listening to us on and tell us how we did. We'll be back next week.

spacex NASA Bob Doug Hurley SPACEX Space Station United States America Houston International Space Station Sir Bob Chris Cassidy Gulf Florida Johnson Space Center NASA Johnson Space Mexico Steven Kathy
Expanding the Market in Low-Earth Orbit

Houston We Have a Podcast

54:22 min | Last week

Expanding the Market in Low-Earth Orbit

"Houston we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast. The nasa johnson space center episode one ninety three expanding the market in low earth orbit. I'm pat ryan on this podcast. We talked with scientists. Engineers astronauts all kinds of experts about their part in america's space exploration program. Today we're going to take you inside another important aspect of the mission of the international space station from before the first element of the station was launched in nineteen ninety eight through the arrival of expedition. One to begin a continuous human habitation of space. That's now in. Its twenty first year. One of the international space station programs primary goals has been to promote the commercialization of space by creating a science laboratory in orbit and by being a reliable destination for years and years and yes by providing seed money for private development. The station has provided a goal that private companies could drive toward whether in making use of the facility for scientific research or in delivering payloads or in creating their own products a heck creating drone companies to help move private enterprise off of planet earth. And it's worked. This is the fourth in a series of nasa sponsored panel discussions in recognition of the twentieth anniversary of continuous human presence. On the station. We brought you the first ones. In february march and early april this time representatives of nasa and simple private companies discuss how the station has helped create a new era in space exploration. The moderator is nasa public affairs. Officer gary jordan. Who you've heard pier on the podcast. From time to time. He will introduce you to eight. Guests gathered at a virtual roundtable to provide some background and perspective about the development of commercial space and their thoughts about the next steps. Okay then here we go. You're going to have hello. Everyone thank you for joining us for this next installment in our series of panels and celebration of the twentieth anniversary of continuous human presence on the international space station. The station has been a critical test bed. For scientific research and technology development and low-earth orbit for the past two decades by the time we reached twenty years of continuous human habitation. More than three thousand experiments have been conducted involving forty two hundred researchers from eight hundred. Eight countries truly an international orbiting laboratory. What is is that. There is value in low-earth orbit and the future of operations in low-earth orbit lies with commercial companies commercial work done and low earth orbit is not new nasa has had long standing relationships with commercial companies. In fact many of our panel today represent those very companies. The international space station will play a critical role in nasr's goal to develop a robust economy of Robust commercial economy in low-earth orbit so on today's panel titled expanding the market in low earth orbit. We're going to explore the history and future of the commercialization of low-earth orbit with some of the most influential people leading these efforts so joining our esteemed panel. Today is mike reed international space station Business and development manager at nasa. John mulholland vice president and manager for the international space station program at boeing christine credits vice president of programs and partnerships for the international space station. Us national lab. Jeffrey manber chief executive officer officer and co founder at nanak rich bowling vice president of corporate advancement at tech shot fill mcallister director of commercial space flight nasa veggie read senior director of human spaceflight at spacex and then fan deputy manager of nasa commercial crew program. That you all for taking the time to discuss this topic today. mike read. I want to start with you. Sort of setting the context for what we're going to be talking about today talked about low-earth orbit in my introduction that that phrase quite a bit but let's start with what is lower orbit and what a special about that part of space for commercialization efforts. That's which close to her. The closest to their as opposed to geostationary which was twenty two thousand miles away. This could be as close as one hundred and fifty two hundred miles away. And that's the orbit space station in about two hundred and fifty miles h quick to get to. It's cheaper relatively to get to then your then. You're deeper space orbits and so that's that's a platform that the where we have space station where we do most of our research right now. It's also very expensive to get platforms into a much deeper space positioning and so therefore access to it is more expensive in the volume is incredibly limited. So i thought was talking about the international space station in particular. How is the international space station. A player in some of these commercialization efforts and then why is this commercialization effort at all important to nasa. Start with the second question. First because the the why do something seems to me always to set the stage for for how that there's a couple a truisms with with regard to nasa in in our need for space one is nasser. Always gonna have a need for a lower platform for crew proficiency and training for our fundamental and applied research and and critically for our advanced systems development for exploration program because things don't operate in space the same way they do in one g in years of operating in a lower over platform with the next gen system. We're not going to put that. In a database platform and entrusted. The the second thing is space station is going to be last. Us government funded funded and one hundred percent lead Platform in leo. It's just it's not tenable. It's it's not gonna there will not be another. Us government leo platform And so if we don't use station right now to enable the development of of not only the next generation platform but the use of that platform Supply-side is critical for our leo economy. You'd be working on our crew in cargo transportation. That's been going on for well over a decade and others on his panel are gonna discuss those on and more recently. We've also enabled the development of a commercially lead element to attach as a new module to i assess that can be used for for research and government as a customer. Not d customer. But that's only one half the way. Our economy is built up of the supply side and the demand side and right now the. Us government is virtually the only user of significance of of the platform. We pay virtually all of the cost. And that's simply not tenable going forward. We have to help enable other users of the leo platform to to see the day can actually do it and and the national app folks are gonna talk about that. 'cause they bring in not only non nasa flares but nongovernment players and and that's critical about two or three years ago. We kinda stopped to assess what we'd been doing over the last decade or or more in in what we were seeing was there weren't a lot of return customers tonight. Use that term loosely There were a lot of companies. Commercials is companies. That were doing research. But it wasn't a key element of their their commercial research plan and so we said why. Why why is that. And it's because it's it first of all they don't understand microgravity secondly it's expensive to adapter terrestrial research to to operate in a microgravity environment. So we we started a very focused project to enable scalable sustainable demand non nasty demand for a next generation platform using the space station while we have it and so Space station program started investing in a portfolio of in-space manufacturing project anything from retinal implants to bio printing to optical fibers exotic fibers Silicon carbide things like that that if if successful if you can prove that. They're orders of magnitude better than what you can do. In one g you could afford the cost of using space and all of the things that drive the cost for doing that so that that portfolio was migrating to a new leo commercialization office that the agency has stood up Agency actually adopted a very broad leo commercialization strategy over a year ago And so two. Bits and pieces to assess program had been working on for for years have now coalesced into a cohesive strategy and and that's pretty cool. I think what's also cool. Mike is that is that is really. We're talking about some of these. Recent efforts it. There's even a deeper history here. In fact the international space station. Ns a really have always had relationships with commercial companies John mulholland. I'm gonna pass it over to you. Boeing in particular has had an extensive history working with nasa notably companies work on the shuttle and the international space station. Can you describe the relationship. Between nasa and boeing specifically for the international space station. I mean i really think from a human spaceflight perspective. We've grown up with nasa we've been nastase partner on every. Us human spaceflight mission dating all the way back to mercury on isis particular. We've been asked as primary partners. Since nineteen eighty six when the irs s was still known as freedom working with nasa we designed and built most of us segments. We integrated the international partners. We've been nastase Primary partner throughout today The focus is on sustainment operations. Make sure operations are are safely performed an really importantly looking you. Now in the future capability restoration and enhancement. That's really going to set the stage to do research on. I assess Over the next decade or more and then payload integration pillar of integration is hugely important because that that returns the investment on the ice. As soon as you mentioned there's been over three thousand experiments than the date fantastic laboratory we're proud have been nasr's partner throughout and that partnership really has has been is a continuing thing right. What if you seen john in terms of the value just working on the international space station program with nasa From from boeing for so long what is the value that you have really seen with the international space station. I think you know. There's there's lots of of of streams of value. One is the international collaboration. And everything there. But but really what i think. The legacy of the iss is is gonna be is the research in discovery that we've had to date and we promised to to show in the future in just just a couple of examples of of research leads almost getting ready to be filled. It in a cure for duquesne's muscular dystrophy. That was but fundamentally developed because a research on the iss and just you know in the last month or so us. Scientists completed research on a potential cure for kimia so it between those manufacturing space. There's just so much promise everything that that we have done. Species all the discoveries we've made have been made under the influence of gravity. This is the first time that a national laboratories been dedicated to research without the the effects of gravity and we're seeing astounding results and let let solicit explore that a little bit the idea of the space station as a us national lab christine kratz at the top of this panel. I mentioned more than three thousand experiments conducted on the station. Thousands of researchers for more than a hundred different countries many of these experiments were conducted and performed were through the function of the international space station as a us national lab. Can you explain what that means. It's important sure. That's a great gary. Thanks for the question as you know. Congress opened up. The the national lab is it as a way for others around the world but us researchers especially to have access for non nasa research in and. Mike pointed out some of the things that nasa has helped foster but opening up to a broader group of researchers on earth to think about how they may may take that terrific asset that that we have in space and leverage it for their research was important that spans academics universities startup companies might mention the the optical implant that is coming out of lamp division from startup organization as well as working with industry partners merck pfizer. I'm sanofi recently and then others like adidas so so having companies have access to the space station required something that was kind of a non non nasa opportunity that gives us fifty percent of the up mass down mass plus sixty percent of the astronaut time and with more astronauts on board the station right now. That's more astronaut. Time that we're happy to have access to which is a lot partnerships until the partnerships that john mentioned important partnership with nasa foster that with us and help us collaborate together partnerships. With companies like boeing than have us concert the technology in space prize that created the opportunity for lamb division to put their their application into space partnerships with nsf. And and i h you also foster research like tissue chips in space that we work with and then the commercial service provider sa- in In jeffer- here today to talk about their efforts they provide access directly through their operations to go to the space station including stem other kinds of really interesting regenerative medicine. Research is going on and a partner couldn't go directly to their innovations in those commercials service providers access space station through our location. It's important just for the same things that might in. John mentioned previously which is really innovative efforts. That would not be possible without the access. Granted by congress in partnership with nasa access so some of the things mentioned here were muscular dystrophy. Leukemia research the regenerative medicine work. That's going on that may some day 'cause Allow us to have implantable organs. It's sounds far fetched but the direction to us. This is really an amazing innovative platform. And because as the access to these researchers have i guess it's according to say the sky's the limit but in fact it's amazing to see what people come up with. really excited to continue to work with nasa enter partners here to allow that access christine gave them so many fantastic examples of some of the Station have you any mentioned opening it up as a us lab in in two thousand and five or at least the the push from congress to do so have you seen an increase in participation demand from when you first started opening it up as us lab trying to get the word out that there is this orbiting laboratory that companies have access to. Have you seen an increase to where we are now. In twenty twenty absolutely the initial experiments were were fewer and further between because researchers were aware of the access and they we had not yet developed the platforms that the jeff enrich and other of our commercial service providers have created so over time. The words got now research become more and more complex because of the kindest learnings that they've had in again the commercial service provider's implementation partners have built platforms right on the station. And i'm sure that they'll talk about those more that allow people to de risk their research allowing for more and more creativity in more success in addition as we learn more those opportunities become more complex and so they take more astronaut time they take more more capabilities from From our partners and they've all risen to that and made those opportunities available. So i started here only two years ago and the types of things that i've seen from the tissue chips in space which you're gonna be a game changer. To things that ritchie talk about the bff and jeff we'll talk about his platforms. It's just amazing. Even in two years the changes we've seen in what's ahead for us. It's really exciting. I think that's the perfect segue to you jeff. mentioned longstanding relationships with with john mulholland. Not too long ago with boeing. Nanak has also been one of those long standing relationship with nasa with the us national abc. Can you talk about some of these break things. That christine was alluding to that. You've been performing a commercial company operating on the international space station gas. Thanks it's great to be here. Many friends You know when you look back on the international space station. It's not just the hardware that i'll talk about that. In the moment it's also a new system it's new partnerships between the private sector in the government and and and so probably one of the most important legacies at twenty years of the international space station is the public private partnerships in the maturing of. That is no better examples. And let's say the spacex northrop contracts and boeing contracts for cargo and crew with You know companies like manna racks. We've invested considerable money Into our hardware our platforms were ready to go as we record this sound space space x twenty one. Benji make sure that thing gets up there. We got out bishop airlock on there. And and that's a permanent addition to the space station that's privately funded And we worked in partnership with boeing. The on that and so the space station for me is is a lot of things. it's first stability. bipartisan support. You don't have bipartisan support. For much days and we have it for the international space station and that bipartisan support has given us the times to make these sort of investments to work out the the ecosystem this developing low-earth orbit at nanak we have customers from thirty countries as i said room vesting different platforms. We work everything from biopharm satellite deployment of deployments. We've deployed of two hundred eighty satellite from the space station. We've coordinative or one thousand projects a lot of folks in my office. Call them payloads with people outside. People like us don't know what it loads projects and every one of those has a dream and aspiration and now manner access recently announced that we're gonna be in the research business we're going to be. I think one of the first companies and that's in the industry to be supporting only searchers driving own Research an ad tech and bio pham and will use riches hardware and hardware jr everyone else's hardware and and so you see what ecosystem developing. So i i guess for me at iraq's for now eleven years into this journey and it's been wonderful to see the public private partnerships partnerships mature with nasa and other government agencies to see the customer base mature. They get more sophisticated now launching multiple times a year and it's really an exquisite sort of like clock and it works as one default and It's a delight to be now. The bishop airlock was one of those things that was mentioned christine alluded to jeff. You mentioned it a few times. I think it's a good model for for understanding. What a commercial facility operating in low-earth orbit is can you talk about that specific module that the nanna rex bishop airline. Shall we recognized early on that. The jackson airlock is wonderful. But we thought that there could be more business. More opportunity growed utilizations if there was a bigger airlock and we went to nasa and as usual unfortunately for finance wrecks we didn't ask for funding We said hey. If if we put up this airlock. I'll catch on mike at some point i'll think about asking for funding anyway We we We said hey. We're willing to invest in having a larger five times lodger along than anything that exists on the station and so we went ahead. We got with. Boeing got partners the tallus lenient others And we well so funded This airlock we now have enjoyed. Contracts with european space agency nasa with some commercial companies domestic and international Were scheduled as record this to go up on the next cargo ship from spacex. And so there. You have a wonderful example of a public private partnership where the private sector comes up with. The concept comes up with the with. The funding is based on the investment. The taxpayer has made you know over the last years and beyond in the international space station and frankly now masses coming in As a customer but pretty much a commercial customers Because they didn't they didn't fund us prior. They waited to see that we were moving along and and and so it's still a fragile market but couldn't be more excited by the bishop lock. It's going to be a permanent addition to the station and a great symbol for the growing maturity of ecosystem. Rich is another commercial company operating on the space station. Now through some of your work at tech shot. Can you describe some of the things you've been a part of and the value that you've seen low-earth-orbit sure so we were founded in eighty eight so some of our first payloads for onboard spatial missions. And if that's we I think we outright one payload most of what we were doing was building them. Turn turn them over to the agency in the station era that sort of Flipped and now we've developed Nearly a dozen payloads of so many different varieties payloads projects. It perhaps if maybe we should call him Miniature onboard station now and others are in pipeline ready for certification. Those things are Tools that enable research with fish. Plant cells Ho- animals We have an x ray machine from ice on board the station. Now and we've done one hundred and fifty six x rays of my so far One of the more interesting ones of those. A for the research team of a stage in lee and emily drew mainly mighty mice that i think a lot of people have heard about. We're proud to play a role net mighty mouse mighty mice research. That showed that some of the treatments. They gave those mice. The the muscle muscle wasting was not only a reduced but in some cases Soya animals were came back stronger from space than than when they went up. Obviously that has terrific Implications for long term space flight crews but also folks here on earth who have muscle wasting diseases and it could be a real game changer. Perhaps sort of the most important things that we've been apart of at a station but others are also Very exciting. we're getting ready to launch some squid on the space x twenty one and and so there's quite a wide variety of equipment that most of which we as sort of picks and shovels model where It's not our research. It's the research of our customers and we provide the whole ecosystem of what they need to to get some amazing results in space and microgravity as a way of sort of lifting the mask off of processes and allowing researchers to understand more about what's going on inside of a of a of a biological system. Sometimes it means that they need to go back in space and and In continue either research or Some some manipulation in on-orbit but a also it might mean that they've learned at something in microgravity than they they can apply and replicate on earth. Which also i think is is helpful to the industry Bit are payloads. Our projects are divided into a couple categories. One is what we do provide for those customers of ours But then the projects that we take on for ourselves with our internal Science team and those are related to things like what christina. Mike alluded to with our operator so the The tech shot revile fabrication facility which we developed in partnership with a company called script in orlando which it makes the world's finest Terrestrial three printers and The voucher is something that is A project of tech shots the researchers hours were doing the research internally now and occasionally bringing in outside investigators When it when it makes sense also we're cell factory shots In space manufacturing capability to be able to make all sorts of stem cells in space for for either self therapy's on earth or for research Bike byron customers can provide a source of cell manufacturing on orbit and last. They were working on a three d. metal printer for for the for the station as well that Hopefully we'll be able to prove prove its use to make aerospace grade things like titanium Which also will help Expiration crews going to deep space And even on the surface of mars but these technical accomplishments. I think are are definitely important. Bud jeff talked about just the the the infrastructure whether it's the technical infrastructure or just a policy of restructure that's been established and. I agree that. I think that that's going to be This this nasa democratization of space. Where i think. It has intentionally fostered entrepreneur participation. I think that's going to be regarded as one of the stations most important achievements and To me this kind of leadership in technology and enterprise in space seems to be a very american thing to do. Were excited to be a part of it. Rich you've explained so many fascinating types of research. And i think people listening may be surprised to hear just how many different areas there are material science biological science And some of them to get involved as well. Can you kind of draw some lines and to connect with some of our panelists. Today we have representative from us national lab from tex- shot. We have nasa. Can you talk about the relationships with tech with tech shy and with with all of these different that brings together for those. That may also wanna get involved right. So so first of all part of that intention alley that i mentioned which i think is not to be too quickly dismissed. I mean mike's office Mike's involved in in the commercialization station for a long time and he talked about how he seen an evolution of what works. And what a policies that nasa put in place to foster this so we work with mike office. We've got a space act. Agreement established years ago as i know jeff as well and so without without mike's office we couldn't do this We launch on Essentially every spacex cargo dragon and without at resupply capability especially that returning capability. We couldn't do what we wanna do. once we get into more of a production mode with Human tissue which again. I don't wanna give anyone the idea that this is happening Next year but it looks good. It looks promising and we need that return capability to bring those things. We manufacturer for patients a back to earth and christine mentioned the allocation and the fact that we can partner with the us national laboratory to Frankly not only do Manifesting but also we rely on them and and partner with them in just helping potential customers understand the value of microgravity They've got some tremendous resources on staff. That do a far better job than i do about explaining the evaluate benefits of microgravity to mature material science folks to to people in industry and in pharmaceutical companies. And for so many reasons. Re- rely on folks like christine national national lab And then even competitors Jeff and i. We don't compete in in every aspect. Certainly don't launch cubesats or things like that but i do still consider his success my success and success of the industry. This is frankly A small industry compared to so many others. And an i do cheer on the success of nasdaq's space tango a bio serving others Because we want to grow this guy we to we went to rally and and Bill demand For ourselves and right now that also means helping others bill demand for their products and services. So it's definitely an interdependent ecosystem right now. Thank you rich. You can really get a sense of just. All the commercial work happening in lower orbit. I think another really important piece of this puzzle is the transportation to and from lower. We're talking about what's happening on lower orbit. That transportation is another critical piece over the mass over the past many years. cargo has been delivered to station by way of commercial spacecraft. Now we're bringing on the next generation of human rated spacecraft's want shift gears from some of the work on international space station to these transportation capabilities. Benji read a wanna. Pass it i to you. We're not seem far. Removed from a huge milestone crew won the first rule tation flight on a commercial spacecraft. Just arrived at the international space station with four astronauts who will now call the station their home for the next six months first of all. Congratulations what incredible. Achievement for spacex Thank you very much. Thank you for having me on the panel today in in in you know always massive congratulations to space station itself in the program. All the partners involved in making it happen industry partners and nasa partners international partnership. But but yeah no. It's it's it's an amazing. Accomplishment represents the work of thousands of people Spacex and nasa join teams on dedication and sacrifice by them and their families to put off or You know the most exciting part is for those four crew members For victor mike shannon. And so we g and their dedication to to going up and living and working and doing all of the science and commercialization efforts that we have to do always a thank you to them and their families Trusting us in that transportation and bring bringing up there in bringing home safely So yeah you talk a lot about transportation. I think it kind of looking at the big picture And enriches a really good word intention. -ality spacex was founded in in continues to focus our our number. One mission is fundamentally to make life multi planetary And those are just words. That's the real deal. That's what we do so when you look at. That picture is okay. Well what does that mean. Well first of all the nearest planet mars what we have to do to make that happen. We've got to quit thousands of people on mars. We have to put thousands of tons of cargo on march and probably more right. Thousands tens of thousands hundreds thousand ultimately a self sustaining civilization on. Another planet is gonna look light. You know at least a million people and that sounds blowing probably to most people right. But but that's that's the reality is gonna cake. And that's the intention inch inch analogy. And that's the mission of spacex on. I think a lot of us we all really want to see is a future where you know. Humans are a spacefaring species were carrying. You know our our adventure are learning and our exploration of the stars And ended in again. This is exactly what we're seeing low-earth orbit and what we're seeing on the space station. That has benefits back home. You know back on the to a lot of terrestrial applications the how to do that you to his credit kind of a practical set of steps as you think the problem all eventually needed but thousands of people thousands of tons of cargo all the one another planet um and what are the barriers to that so you look at the barriers and you say well number one. I need the technology to do it number two. I need to drop the rice. The cost is the problem right. Kostas space is really the fundamental Limiting factor in the equation In this whole experiment of space exploration limiting factor is is. How much does it. How much does it cost per pound To get to get things up there because that cost not only is is a cost directly on your project bright but it's also it increases the cost of the project itself if you're going to spend you know thousands or millions of dollars for a launch Or to be a piece of a launch And and now you gotta worry. Well i'm going to police in one of these things up there and it's got gotta work. It's got to be perfect. And so you spend a lot of money in a lot of time making that one thing Were really really really well and have high reliability whereas when you look at like well how industries take off huddle economies takeoff terrestrial historically while a lot of times. It isn't because you bill one car right off. The line is going to build one car. It's going to be a perfect work forever. Will they built a lot of cars star with and there was a lot of people actually working any any invention or you know that you look around is actually a lot of people working in that and and a lot of different a lot of failures. That happened so how do you you wanna be able to drive that overall price down so there can be mini right. There has to be used using terms like ecosystem and and others that are very biologically based terms. But there's a good reason for that right. That's the way life works. Biology is a it's you know there's there's a ton of different options a huge diversity of opportunity And that's how you that's how you ultimately evolve in in in grow and that's what we have to do here too. So what do we face today. Go to the next step the problem. Well how do you drive down costs while the cost of transportation is the lack of reusability. Right if you if you have to build we always say it. But it's always worth repeating you get on that big jet airplane and if you had to fly across the country from new york los angeles and the new done with that flight and you push into the ocean. That's gonna be a pretty expensive set at tickets and so we started working. You know from the very beginning on. How do we re fly. Rockets how do we reuse those rockets and ultimately all of the pieces of the spacecraft. Everything that we can do. Huge partnership with nasa on the cost program The The original cargo transportation services program in the development. There we developed dragon on that program and we developed Falcon nine on that program Both of those are the falcon nine. Now of course is being used across many different unfamiliar different customers and and and for many different programs government and private And we see we see how that works together. We've flown dragon on now to the space station at home. Twenty times In that time at vulcan was developed has flown over one hundred times over sixty times. It's flown Which is rate on and it really kind of amazing we think about it just over the last few years so we're starting to see that started to drive down. Those prices ultimately the cost of space. Space transportation needs to be driven down by an order of magnitude bite. You know divide by ten and then divide by ten again. Probably two orders of magnitude to actually get to these goals. And we're gonna to get they're going to do that And then so so serving the station you talk about in one of the things that was mentioned was the bringing of things Is very very right. Goal forgoing multi planetary away and. Never come back right. We actually we want to be this like interchanges. This interchange of transportation And so this is the space station and the work we've been able to do with them and nasa all of these partners that we've been hearing from today and others is about that reading things up and bringing them home and being able to learn so from the beginning dragon was designed to fly lots of science. Lots of payloads to space station bringing home safely and And there's other partners out there who are also working on those technologies to And also from the beginning dragon was designed to build fly people and fly and maintain life in know biological Payloads if you will for like the light but we talked about the mice earlier And it's cool here. There's going to be squid on their On twenty one the cargo vehicle. Twenty one you know. There's a lot we've been actually been flying a lot of Biological argo for a long time on and and and maintaining environments even for non vallarta needed to a mondragon for many many flights for many years. And then yeah. Now call in culminating with our crew dragon Which is dragging to line. And then coming up this series. Twenty one this cargo twenty one flight Will also be on the first flight of of a dragon to that line. The first part ovarian that cited to bring up the anoraks docking area and That's going to be fantastic. We're super excited about that And said docking. You're airlock correctly But you know we just see this partnership continuing you know we're looking forward to. I love the fact that the crew one crew that went up. Just now they're gonna. They're spending the next few weeks getting oriented but spending a lotta time catching up a lot of the work that this station that needs to get done doing a lot of the science where And then getting ready for twenty one to show up which is going to just have a load of Of signs the ended. That's the big picture. That's where we're seeing things having that you described so well the ambition and the model that you're you're using to create this this commercial economy. That's really what talking about today. Economy and i know nasa goal is to be one of many customers right in a in a self sustaining robust economy. Where commercial partners are are in. Lower orbit for spacex. Can you talk about some of the ways that you are participating in in existing in this market right with with crew. One nasa was the customer spacex provided transportation so that nasa can have astronauts on board the station to conduct science. But we want to be one of many customers right so talk about how. The crew dragon will participate. In some of the ambitions nasa has put up like like private astronauts in the orbit economy company. Sure absolutely will very similar to what happened with falcon right again. We developed in nine as part of that Pops effort In for put dry into to take dragged into space station and now we again in vienna. Very good example. Nasa is one of many customers on the falcon nine rocket. And we're going to start seeing the same thing on dragon as well Dragging primarily has been space station home on it's also designed to do free flight And so so. Basically doing orbits in in lower or written in leo and you can stay up for a number of days or depending on the different activities that we can do. We can do Science In those in in love with orbit leeann carry payloads in the trunk in the back of dragon. For for non non pressurized cargo. We can carry lots and lots of cargo inside and we can carry people as you were as you were looting to And so there are many different options there right and then now we're also that were already seen another ecosystem of an economy right whether whether we're bringing people up on ourselves customers who are coming directly to us to be able to fly Dragonfly astronauts dragging private astronauts private spaceflight participants We can fly them and drag directly ourselves direct customers to us. We also provide those transportation services to a variety of other companies. That are that are you know. Essentially brokers who are putting together a whole plan. There are a number of people out there looking at different opportunities for private space stations or private elements of space stations. You know exactly what anoraks is doing. You're starting to look how to. How can we add to the space station as it is eventually. How can we create a commercial space stations in those those folks all need transportation services as well and in transportation for cargo for science. And of course people restaurants there are other nations that Very much want to be involved in space and they wanted to become spacefaring nations with their own astronauts and in another opportunity there Where they can they can actually now directly by a seat and buying opportunity to fly and and flying dragon so lost lots of things and sri. There's a lot going on and we're going to be excited to see a lot of it already starting to hear some of the announcements and talk about things like that and then as we move forward you know we've got to keep going. That ultimate goal is out there which is shared goal goal with nasa as we look at this commercialization leo and we look towards getting to the moon and getting to mars. And so we're building the starship do the same things and be fully reusable very sad in future ahead and loss of partners lost customers beyond nasa them. Benji was talking a lot about the crew. One and some of the ambitions air. We're talking about the crew dragon. This was part of nasa commercial crew program. Crew dragon is one of those vehicles. Boeing star liner is the other Can you talk about some of nasa goals by having this program and bringing up these capabilities for transportation. The absolutely you know as commercial crew program and it also is Sierras program you know the really transportation organizations with their overarching goal of helping to certify and fly rockets and spacecraft as safely as quickly as industry can do it so with these investments Know not only do we. Are we celebrating the twentieth anniversary of the internet space station which is a huge thing now. An expedition sixty four of the ice were also celebrating the ten year anniversary coming up in just about two weeks here for the first cots demo flight number one Which was just under ten years ago and since that time. Commercial industry partnered government completed thirty. Four progress supply missions to the space station as well as i just this year just in the last six months now uh spacex is accomplished to crewed missions and the ice s both the demo to now with crew once. So so yeah. It's been a tremendous accomplishment for these commercial government partnerships so Yeah so we're very much looking forward to spacex becoming a very regular Occupant of one of the two docking adapters up on space stations to and we're looking forward to going coming up in a matter of months so they should become a backup space stations. What working very hard to To ensure that everything's ready and they are very closely behind so it's it's really very exciting time so when you look back at just again in the big scheme of things for leo commercialization. Ten years to station was established ups right twenty years ago. Let's say schools established ten years ago. We started these commercial partnerships and and now nearly forty flights later We are continuing and going on to the next thing. Also with not only with spacex and six on the cargo side but off. Seared avodon coming up here. In the next year to quite the landscape phil phil on a pass to you. Mike read in the very beginning of this panel. Talked about some of the recent accomplishments and and Opening up the station for business. And some of the recent efforts for commercializing leo king. You talk through some of nasr's recent accomplishments accomplishments so far To support some of these commercialization efforts is shirt. So when i saw that i was going to be the last speaker michael. That's great concern just my comments. Accordingly the downside is that there's almost nothing more to say right everything everybody's covered something. I'm like okay rich said that mike said that Not sure what. I can add to that very good tapestry that i think everybody has laid out for for s Obviously we've had some some very recent successes with having the iss as this critical test bid to experiment and i use that word Literally and figuratively right actually doing research experiments but also Experimenting on what works. And what may not work in terms of economic activity in commercial activity on ice s end in low-earth orbit so Isis has been keep fat former really just seeing some traction. Now i think it has to do with the fact that we actually have human commercial space transportation now available Through the spacex dragon berry shortly thereafter. Star liner were seeing a lot of traction on private astronaut missions that go to the s and not only that just completely a private missions. That don't even go to the iss. There was a recent announcements by spacex in space adventure just to go in space and not to dock with isis and nasa will have nothing to do with that project. And that's exactly what we want to see And we've also seen some successes that on the demand side on what we're actually doing in the iss machines more commercial development projects. That are coming up to the i. S s so. So when i think of the overall sort of commercial leo development activity that we're doing The assess has obviously been critical test bed for that. So i think everybody. At nasa when we think of the assess we wanna give it the vulcan salute and say live long and prosper But this twentieth anniversary is an awesome celebration. But it's also a reminder that the i is not going to be around forever it could experience in unrecoverable anomaly at any time and so as amazing as it is. It's also a reminder that that is our inventors are single toehold to continuous human presence in low-earth orbit So it's my job to ensure that we do not have a gap for whenever the iss retires whenever that is and so when. I look back historically Benji event also mentioned it. We started with cargo and then we have crew commercial crew and i think our long term vision is then to have commercials estimations and once we have all three of those in lower orbit primarily driven by private sector Interests you have this self reinforcing Ecosystem i know views that were lot but i really think it applies here self sustaining and self-reinforcing and that's what that's what the commercially development program is all about We are looking at eventually having multiple space destinations again. The sort of tenuous nature of just having one platform up there as amazing as it is Reinforces that i think we need multiple destinations just like we have multiple commercial cargo capabilities and soon commercial crew capabilities. Having redundancy in having multiple capabilities is going to be key. And i think when we look at destinations. We've talked about all the different things that we can do. in low-earth-orbit. Not every destination is going to be good for every kind of application. So we could see sort of tailoring of this destination for this particular market. This destination for another different kinds of market. But you look overall and you'd have this sort of a rich tapestry capability redundancy that i think we all wanna take advantage of not just nasa as mike said we're gonna have continuous requirements in low-earth-orbit. We're going to be a good anchor. Customer were these capabilities but as we've said many times it's not just a cliche. We want to be one of many customers. So we're hopefully going to enable that capability to be sold to other customers do agree with benji completely. The key is cost as amazing as the iss is. we've always been conscious of cost with the isis. But it wasn't really developed with that as the primary driver had other things that we were trying to accomplish when you when you partner with the private sector they have a laser focus on cost and schedule and then you bring nastase experience with human spaceflight fifty years of human spaceflight and you put those together. It's a very very powerful combination and we saw it with cargo. We saw it with crude. And i want to bring those lessons learned with commercial space destinations. And make sure that they are online whenever the iss retires. I think once that happens. Nasa can then set its sights deeper and really allow the economic activity in low-earth-orbit to really take off phil. I think he said it so nicely. And i'm sorry for for making you the last speaker but but you said that you know we've covered so much man we. We talked about the international space station and some of the great work happening on board with a lot of our commercial Partners we talked about the transportation capabilities and phil you ended so nicely with under giving us understanding of what this framework you know what what is a robust ecosystem understanding sort of what that looks like in low earth orbit so i just like to end their and thank each and every one of your for taking part in today's discussion. What truly enlightening and fascinating discussion we had today. It's been an honor to host such an esteemed panel and chat with y'all today so for those listening and tuning and thank you so much. If you wanna know more about nassar's low-earth-orbit commercialization efforts visit nasa dot gov slash leo dash economy as always. You can follow us on facebook twitter instagram and other social platforms us and ask us questions. Using the hashtag ask nasa. Thanks so much for tuning in my own. Bring bunny when i got to nasa in the mid nineteen ninety s and the modules of the international space station. Were still being built. And there were days when you'd be forgiven for wondering when this whole thing was even going to get off the ground. The program goal of promoting commercialization of space and space research. Didn't seem like such a big deal. Now it's hard to imagine what the station would be like today if we didn't have the vital contributions from and participation by private companies including those represented in today's discussion and many many more as we move ahead in the artem is program looked to see how the lessons of the value of commercial partnerships is being applied to the next goals of space exploration others more to come on this celebration of the space station's twentieth anniversary. The next discussion focuses on the critical importance of the partnership built by the united states. A nasa and nations in space agencies from all around the world. That's coming up in a couple of weeks. I'll also remind you that you can go online to keep up with all things. Nasa app nasa dot gov and you can find the full catalog of all of our episodes by going to nasa dot gov slash podcast and scrolling to our name. You'll also find all the other. Cool nasa podcast. Right there at the same spot where you can find us. Nasa dot gov slash podcast. The panel discussion in this episode was recorded on november eighteenth. Twenty twenty thanks to alex perriman gary jordan nor moran belinda pulido and jennifer hernandez putting together the podcast and to the nasa jay c. external relations office for putting together this episode of the anniversary panel discussions. We'll be back next week.

Nasa international space station boeing John mulholland spacex international space station united states christine nasa johnson space center Officer gary jordan mike reed boeing christine credits Jeffrey manber nanak rich bowling fill mcallister Mike jeff
NASA in Hollywood

Houston We Have a Podcast

1:29:17 hr | 2 years ago

NASA in Hollywood

"Houston. We have a podcast welcome to the official podcast. And the NASA Johnson Space Center, sixty eight NASA in Hollywood, I'm Gary Jordan and w host today. So if you're familiar with us, this is where we're bringing scientists engineers, astronauts all to let you know the coolest information, but what's going on right here. At nasa. We explore a lot of topics about human spaceflight and deep deep into all of these subjects, but NASA is not just scientists and engineers, it's full of all kinds of disciplines. And today, we're talking about a unique side of NASA with some very special guests today, we're bringing in Bob Jacobs, Burt Alrich and Bill Berry, Bob and Bill promise we didn't even plan that, but they are some pretty important people here at NASA based at our headquarters in Washington DC. So Bob Jacobs is the acting associate administrator of communications he's essentially in charge of communications and PR for the agency. Burt Alrich is the multimedia liaison, film, and TV collaborations. He oversees Nasr's engagement in film and television projects and. Is also responsible for the agency's identity, including the insignia the logo that you see when we think about NASA Bill Berry is necessary. Chief historian he's pretty much in charge of the history department of the entire agency. So for today's episode. I connected remotely with this. Power trio in Washington to talk about NASA in Hollywood have you noticed? How have there been so many space movies and shows lately a lot of times these guys are hands on with those movies, helping to make sure that they have all the right permissions and information and to make the movie the best that it can be and we'll get into detail about how that works. You may already know that the movie I man came out in theaters recently, the movie about Neil Armstrong, and the journey to the historic moon landing the creators and cast of that movie worked pretty closely with us here at NASA so close that they were actually here at the Johnson Space Center. Learn about our culture and to try to make the story of the moon landing as accurate as possible. They also visited the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Bob Jacobs, actually sat down with some of those folks from I man, including actors and actresses Ryan Gosling clarify, Patrick fugit, Lukas, Haas and Libya, Hamilton screenwriter, Josh singer, and author James Hansen and director Damian Chazelle. And the family of the historic NASA, astronauts, including Rick and Mark Armstrong and Bonnie white bear he discusses working closely with them and how their perspective change about human spaceflight. After researching this movie will play some clips during those interview on today's episode. So with no further delay list. Jump bread ahead to our talk with Bob Jacobs, Burt Alrich and Bill Berry and the cast and crew of the first man movie. Enjoy. County. Arctic. Bob Burton Bill. Thanks for joining me today on Houston. We have a podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Glad we're here. Very honored to be talking to all of you today. I actually can't believe that I'm talking to all three of you at the same time. This is this is pretty cool. But this is an interesting and unique topic for the show because first of all I didn't even think about bringing all of this together. But it's so important, especially now with all the movies coming out, and Bob, especially recently, you got to speak with the cast and crew the writers that director even of I man, and we're definitely going to get into that. But before we do I did want to start with sort of an overall approach how we're working with Hollywood how we're working with filmmakers, just in general and just why we're doing it in the first place. Bob, you have the best perspective. I think as the acting associated minister for communications, why are we doing this? Well, I figured just provides us another avenue through which we can tell NASA story. I I I think bird has. The the total here. I think last year was a record year with over one hundred and forty five documentaries and films. That's correct. I think it's one hundred forty three documentaries twenty-five features films and forty one TV programs. So so they give us, you know, they just give us extra avenues through which to tell our story on top of kind of the traditional means that we have to communicate across NASA with the website, news releases social media that sort of thing. So it's like a is it a different audience is that the is that the idea is just a different group of people to listen to this message. Well, it may be people who normally don't receive or or kind of built in to get a NASA message, you know, someone might go see the Martian just because of the topic. And because it's Matt Damon. And because it's an exciting movie, but don't realize or or don't necessarily follow Nassar know that we've got to Rovers around Mars, and we're about to put another Lander on Mars. Ars? So I it just gives us access to an additional audience. Yeah. And I think it's got to be important, right? Because Burt your title is literally multimedia liaison, film and TV collaborations. We have a person dedicated to working on this. And it sounds like it's for a good reason. How many hundred and forty three at this unbelievable in a single year? Yeah. I think the documentary world is really the better bread and butter of of how industry, but but features are really important too. I mean, we've had a real boon. I think in the last couple of years between the Martian Hidden Figures. And I man that we were all involved with those films have really propelled us forward. Also in the eyes of of of the film and TV communities. So how'd you choose how do, you know, which ones are the good ones to latch onto? You know? I I think there there are two things number one. I think it is subjective. It has to do with the quality of the director the the studio if they have a history, and there's this thing that we kind of look at each other and go is it, you know, is it feasible fiction. You know, the, and that's kind of that's kind of our guiding our guiding principle, and I if we believe that it isn't so far out there, and they've got a a legacy of of successful productions than it's something we may decide to get involved with, and I think historical productions are a lot easier in some ways because we have something to hone in on and that we can act really concentrate and trying to get it as right as we possibly can from our perspective. Of course, there's a lot of artistic license involved as well. But fiction is another thing. Like if with Seifi, I think that's another area that we do get involved with. But, but we are a little bit more careful about how we can actually hone in on on those subjects which are a little more really five fictional out there stuff. Yeah. I guess. So is it kind of that you want to you know, if you're going to work with someone and spend the time and resources to work with a company who's trying to make a film and tell the story to tie Nastase brand to in ultimately the. Nasa brand is a powerful thing. And something we kind of have to keep track of. So you want that to be Representative of what you want to protrayed NASA being is that kind of the idea, I think somewhat I mean, I think we don't want to be misleading to the public so short. We actually have our brand on something. It means that we're we're really involved. I mean, there are other movies like life where they created their own NASA logo where we weren't involved with that picture, but something like the Martian or Hidden Figures, and I man, of course, we were very much involved with and we did allow our logos to be used. And that's that historical part of thanks so Bill once once we see this historical feature coming up. What are you doing to help out and make sure that the history is well represented? I'm usually dreading when Bert appears doorway. Because there's a lot of work involved. You look at the the script. But. Dickey with the features that we've been doing lately, the big thing is that. Some respect for history in that. They don't go too far off to defend these things are not documentaries the feature films, and we have to keep that in mind that they're going to do some things with the time line or faxes stuff. The. Artistic spin on the story Hidden Figures was for example, their meticulous about details. But they the compressed about twenty years history into would appear to be two years took the civil rights changes that happen at Langley that stuff started happening nineteen forty three in nineteen sixty one. So so is that an acceptable thing for them to do that's one that we really sort of look at and we struggle within and Bob and Burton. I talk about that sort of stuff all of that. And the main thing is that these filmmakers are really receptive. I think when when you came in, for instance, with head Melfi, I think we gave you the script. And you're like do you really want me to go through? Yeah. Sure. That'd be great. So I think you had a crow with Ted, and and it ended up being a call that took many many, many hours, Bert came by and goes, I said burnt back all by comments on the script, and it was I commented on virtually every line in the script for Hidden Figures. The first version of the script that we saw. I said that the bird, and I thought well, I'm done with that. The fifth sale about three days later. My dory. Goes Ted wants to talk to you. Really because he's on the phone. Through and said says you got a couple of minutes ago you at four hours later, we we hung up. And then he called back the next day. So. And that happens across a lot of the films. I know when we had a number of issues with the first draft of first, man. And and we set up was Josh. Yeah. Josh Sanger, we set up. Josh with Michael Collins, Jim level, other people who who had a a real personal knowledge of Neil. So they could kind of touch on his personality some of which was missing from through those in those early drafts. And you know, I was looking back at emails, I think Josh was first in touch with us in December of fourteen. It's been a long long journey actually for I man, and they really tried to get it. Right. There were many rations of that scripting. Josh Josh, really knew his stuff. I mean, he was asking me questions that you know, it took a bit of research on my part for he largely to knew the answers to. But the the thing that I don't think he really got was the whole test pilot personality about how they can compartmentalizing so early. Early versions of the script sort of had Neil being coming up is very cold in a way. And and that's really wasn't as personality just that. He like like all these us focused, and it was able to compartmentalize it, and I think the the final version of movie does a much better job of showing, you know, the the the rounder parts of your personality and not just the, you know, the the sort of, you know, test pilot adaptations dealing with stress, so that's a hard thing to sort of to sort of. I dunno capture to to capture that sort of personality. So what are we doing on our end like are you going through old footage and transcripts in everything to really capture? And or or I don't know interviews about Neal's personality. How are we capturing this this personality trait on in history? Well, this one was unique in that all three of us had a relationship with Neil. That helps Fendt dated back decades in some instances. So, you know, so we had an idea going in. And I think that each of us felt a responsibility not necessarily to protect him. But there's not a lot of content out there about Neil. So those of us who knew him wanted to make sure that those personality elements were reflected, and then of course, where our experience fall short. They're still people out there who knew Neo from those early days. And that's why we set him up with people like Jim level and Mike Collins. So that's one of those artistic elements that you were talking about how to balance the history with the art that needs to be that needs to be a part of the storytelling. But you know, how do you decide? What's what do you? What do you want to explore in an artistic fashion, and what needs to be represented as as history while Ota? That's the writer director in perks in with at once the sizing what their vision of the film, isn't and clearly with I man they wanted to tell us store that's different from the typical story about the Apollo program and more get into the life of Neil Armstrong. And and how he, you know, dealt with the challenges in him and his family, and the other thing with that script is the first interational, we got I think Bob, you actually talked to Rick and Mark to sort of make sure that they knew that this picture was happening, and they were contact them. But we wanted to make sure that the family was also involved in. They were very much involved along the journey as well. Yeah. That's and this one was tough. I mean movies like, gravity or interstellar or the Martian, you know, there aren't family members who are who are alive, and it's not really dealing with the historic aspects of the agency and for us again kind of feeling a little protective of of Neal's legacy. You know, we wanted to make sure that the family was on board because that could have created all sorts of problems for us. If it was something that we supported in the family didn't or if you took it the other way, and it was something that the family did support and we didn't. So I think it was important for us to all get to a point that everyone felt good about what was being produced and the amazing about Josh to is that he worked with. I mean, I think Mike Collins looked at a script the had other astronauts, look at scripts and they helped him as he sort of you know, chipped away at. Trying to get as much of a reality as it could with the film, given the constraints of a film. Yeah. So that's that's the challenge, right? Is is understanding it. It sounds like there's a few extra steps when it comes to those historical features because you know, fiction is one thing and you want to represent the information accurately with the little artistic flair. But when it comes to real people in the real world. Yes, they need to absolutely be involved. You know, and and there's an interesting story with Hidden Figures that Bill try not to tell it also you can tell it, but it has to do with that scene where we're Katherine Johnson runs across the whites-only restrooms. And in the film has her walking across the parking lot. And. In reality that never happened to Katherine Johnson. She she the building that she worked in didn't have a segregated restroom most of the time. So, but that's actually happened to other people. So I think the movies true to the history in that. It deals with something that actually happened a real people, even if it didn't actually happen to Katherine Johnson. Yeah. Demise? Is where you know. Typically will flag things like that. I'm a script and say, hey, you know, do you you do realize this didn't really happen. And usually we'll have a nice conversation with the either the director of the writer or somebody about what you know. What's this mean in in? This is this within the bounds of what we consider acceptable. And normally those conversations are are very positive and productive in at. We've never had a problem with somebody say, no, we're we insist on doing this runway. And for that matter, you know, from our perspective, we also recognize it's a movie, it's you know, it's not a documentary. And so many people take it as fact, but we're serious about making sure it's not too far bounce. But but there's there's room for for some fuzz on the beach. And we've been trying some cases in more fictional scenarios like the Martian, Jim green are who was in charge of planetary science for NASA is now our chief scientists he worked a lot with Ridley on that script, and that's script. Basically had you know, had a dust storm on Mars, which was very violent, and it wasn't really characteristic of how it is like on Mars. So he suggested a lightning storm, but they didn't really want to do that. And you know, you have to understand that there is drama that sort of unfolding yet to respect that to a certain degree to find that balance. And I think even Andy we're was was pretty respectful of that. And understood that that was constraint in that it was not real he understood the science behind it. But. He did want that man versus we'll Anna no elements survival element to it. But let's let's go into the nitty gritty because I think this is interesting you're talking about working with the filmmakers themselves, mostly from sort of advisory perspective. You know, you you give them the information is is what it sounds like this actually didn't happen. And then you sort of work with them to actually determine how to tell that story. Tell tell me how it works someone someone submits the script, and then you, and then you start doing calls or you go out to the shoot. How's this work? No starts off that we we actually only get involved with with projects which have funding and distribution in place because we get so many requests that we have to prioritize those that will really have guaranteed audience. So that's the first sort of wrong that people have to get through and and they usually do with. That's why we've been able to sort of we've been very lucky we've been able to sort of pick at really wonderful projects. We're not able to do absolutely everything that comes our way. But we're able to. An awful lot. So we'll I get something for documentary at treatment or for a picture a script. And we'll we'll look at those and we'll vet that depending on the subject matter if its historical will bring it to Bill Berry. Bob looks at basically everything. And if it's if it's less, you know, something more about science or something we'll send it over to the scientists. And then they'll sort of look at it. And we'll go back and forth and have a discussion. And then based on that. I guess we kind of see what they want, you know, every project has its own life. I mean, they're they're all a little different. And sometimes they want to shoot on sight. Sometimes they don't sometimes they just want. You know, some of our assets to us to help them build sets or costumes. So it really runs the gamut. They all want to use the massive trainer though. Of course, doesn't exist anymore. But yeah. What's that one that that one? This thing where they. Spins around, multiple axes. And every now, and then we get an opportunity to influence it in and one of those stories is shark NATO. That's a good one. After after because shark NATO was one of those example, I I, you know, now, I think they're up to like shark NATO twenty two or something. But when shark NATO first came out, it was one of those interesting second screen events where it was as much about the online conversation as it was about the film and after shark NATO to Burton I got together. It's like, oh, we got a call the producers they've they they've done everything except with the sharks in space and sure enough the producers came up with something, and you know, that that was a case of, you know, you've got us a spend the seriousness, and and embrace the, you know, kind of the pop culture fun part of what we do. And so we ended up with shark NATO three with data David Hasselhoff as a shuttle commander as part of that. So it's it's a little bit of both. Sometimes it is though serious big projects that come in. And sometimes it's. Hey, let's call. So. And so in and see what what they think about the space or we develop a relationship ship like with Michael bay. I mean, he worked with us on Armageddon. And then later he came to us for transformers three and then again transformers five so we've been able to sort of nurture those relationships and people like to come back sometimes yet with with prominent voices in in filmmaking, too and all different all different voices. You know, whether it's serious whether it's action historical or shark NATO. If it's funny. Yeah. So yeah. No. But how how do you determine you know, it? It sounds like it sort of has this sort of barrier. This front line of defense. They come to you, and you decide whether or not you're going to pursue it. And then how much resources you want to put into it? Whether you're going to just do it advisory or whether you're going to go out. So how is that determined is it is it really subjective. Yeah. Well, it it depends on what they need. So basically if they need to shoot on sight, we usually do something called the space act agreement which is a reimbursable legal agreement. So then the government gets reimbursed for costs in crude incurred beyond something that would be like a normal media shoot for documentary. So so we make sure that's that's done in those those boxes are checked, and that's more bureaucratic and the studios are used to that going back and forth with us in our lawyers. And then we just kind of go full force. We try to get people technical experts like Bill Berry, and or or we'll we'll give our assets we have really a great team of Arcus that are out there. Being able to provide photo materials, and and and footage, and and and they just kind of go to town. Now, everyone is regardless of whether were involved or not with a production. Everyone does have access to our our our film, and and and footage archives irrespective of of of our level of involvement. So that's actually a nice thing to get back to taxpayers. Yeah. No, that's huge. I I'm personally get a lot of those requests, especially with historical space station stuff. And I think it's I think it's important to sort of deliver that, but then there's a lot of it. Especially on our side that has not been digitized yet, you know technology evolves. And we didn't start recording everything to digital up front, and it takes a lot of energy and time to to digitize everything, and that's really that's really hard, especially with with all the other stuff going on and all the other responsibilities and a lot of times the studios will will take that on for us. I you know, I can think any number of projects like an I max. And gosh what other? I mean. Also, just recently, we're working on a project with for CNN documentary on Apollo eleven and the folks behind documentary of worked out an arrangement with the national archives in with us to get is original copies as I can have non digitized material there digitizing it for their film. And then they'll give it back to us in digital format for our use later. So it's a works out to be a really nice exchange and we've worked on over eight productions, I think with with I max they've given us footage as well to use that they've put an I max format. I mean, it's a wonderful sort of back and forth that we're able to sort of. Yeah. Even with the resource constraints. You can come up with another way to meet objectives. I max wants footage. We want archive footage, and we can kind of share those resources that's very important to make those relationships work, you know, besides footage. Bert. I know like a big part of your job is is representing the NASA identity, and I know that's a big part of. Working with feature films as well slapping that NASA logo on different things. And even you know like you said working with other features that don't use the logo for whatever reason. So again, how is that determined? How does that process work again, we work again, I work with Bob on that? Because Bob overseas the use of the logo is well, I kind of designate a sort of work at hands on. But basically, we determine it based on on whether it's feasible whether they're we're not too misleading with the public, and then incidental uses also something that sometimes we're able to to sort of work on which means if it's on a suit or on a building. That's that's easier than any sort of branding use. We usually don't allow Brandon us like on the bottom of a promotional of a promotion for something. But we do allow, you know, another interesting story that that Burt me kick me for for sharing but with gravity. Yes. We we. We reached out when we heard that gravity was being made in when all the way up to. The vice president or the president of Sony and got a very nice polite. You know, no, thank you. We've got it. And so we we weren't involved in the production until the end in post production, and they decided that they they wanted to reach out to us and have us involved. And of course, during the production, all the all the low goes on the space suits were not the NASA insignia, and and they went back and digitize the NASA insignia once we decided that it was something that we wanted to be involved with their at the end. So, you know, a lot of times the directors will go in thinking. Yeah, we don't we don't need your help. When we've got this. And and we can still get involved at the back end. And that's that's huge, right? Because you're talking about we we talked about reviewing for scripts and coming for proposals. But it sounds like there's a lengthy process here where we're. Even involved sometimes in the post production process. Yeah. And then often in the release of something. So that also happens like with interstellar. For instance, we didn't really we weren't involved in the production itself. Then later, we did some outreach around it. And also the other thing is which is which is really quite wonderful is a lot of actors and directors are very much interested in space exploration when they sort of go into this area. And they're often a, you know there if we're interested to help us share our stories in the form of public service announcements or some social media and vignettes that can go out that sort of tell NASA story, and that's really a wonderful opportunity. Also for for NASA for the agency. Yeah, we had Andy we're do a number of education events, not just public communications Nastase cool events, but things that were specifically targeted for middle school students in high school students, and that was a relationship that didn't exist until we got involved with the movie. So so Bert sitting on a kind of an important point is that there's a lot of activity that happens. Even after the film is completed that gives us the opportunity to not only, you know share. The NASA is cool story about whatever the subjects are we want to discuss, but actually engage in stem activities that are so important to you know, kind of creating that next generation of explorer. Yeah. No, that's doesn't interesting point all the way through you know, beyond reviewing the footage post production. But also the communications of it. And this is a this is kind of an interesting line that we have to work because Bert, you even mentioned, you know, slapping, you can't just slap the NASA insignia on, you know, anything even especially promotions. So how do we how do we work with whenever we're communicating we're at where we're at this phase of of of sending the message out and getting people involved with stem. How do we balance the line? Between stem education and trying to evolve new students and get them involved in NASA and in science, and engineering. But then also making sure we're not endorsing anything or crossing too many lines where that would be unethical on our side. Correct. I think that's it is a fine balance. I mean there when it's looking to like, it's an endorsement, then our legal office intervenes on that the other times where you can actually have NASA be part of it without it, you know, endorsing because we're sharing a story. Our story in a way that's new and innovative, which is actually really good. It's it's never quite easy. The other thing that we do a lot with our logos are would be on merchandise. And it's crazy the amount of merchandise requests, we get to have the NASA Meatball. And now the NASA worm as well. We're we're permitting Dyson. It's like it's like a, you know, a triple whammy right now. I think. Yeah. There's a lot to it's it's interesting to find that balance. How are you doing it with with? I man now how how is that working? You mean in terms of logo user, branding or or just in general? Well, we we putting out some I mean Bob interviewed the cast, and we're doing some social media around that and and putting out various vignettes on that. And just generally we just kind of worked with them in a way that's also run by legal where we're able to socialize some things less other things. And and and that's a big thing. I mean, I I can't stress enough. How important social media is for the agency. I'm Bob oversees all of that too. So I don't know if you wanna talk about that. But I think we're more popular than ever I think like over one hundred seventy million followers, and it's it's it's just crazy. How how we're able to get out there through social media with you know, highlighting are great assets. Like, our our footage from from from missions. And our photos from missions. And just in general. No, it's it's interesting because we do because of I think the interest in NASA overall, we can reach out to engage pretty much with anyone. I mean, we've we've created conversations with not only the people who were involved in the film's. But people who also have you know, even more followers than we do. I think the last time I checked we had the fifty first most popular Twitter feed. You know, we've taken down to Kurt Ashi ins, and we we have we have to go. But, but you know, with Justin Bieber with Ariana GRANDE day with with other other people who who have even more followers than we do. And we're able to create conversations just because they're excited to be talking with NASA just as much as we are excited that someone who has, you know, those types of followers and aren't necessarily connected with spaceflight are interested in what we do. So is that how you define success? Then in our communications to involve as many people and get just get people talking about space and get involved with NASA. You know, that's a that's a real tough one measurement is always is always always hard. And and we've got you know, we all have the tools to see how many impressions we made. Or how many people we may have reached and and things of that nature. But a lot of it is so intangible in an immeasurable, you know, I'll do things like just walk along, you know, here in DC. I'll just walk along the the mall and see how many kids are wearing t shirts with the NASA logo on it. And in things that historically people may not notice, you know, in commercials any commercial that has something to do with with high tech in the future. Typically has a NASA launch in it in some shape, or fashion, you know, whether it's a a fast car or or or just something that they wanna represent the future in. There's usually something NASA related to it. I mean, I really do think that we we've become a part of the American fabric for lack of a better term, where where I think people just know that we're there, and we, you know, we've got a challenge to get them specific knowledge about you know, what it is that we're doing and why we're doing it like going to the moon and onto Mars and things of that nature. But but it is measurement measurement is hard. And I think it's one of those cases, you know, all each of us probably. We had some event in our lives that got us excited about space. You know, I'm I'm old enough that I'm an Apollo kid. So I was a when when Neil and buzz landed on the moon. So, you know, I think we're constantly trying to create. I know I am in the outreach activities that we do. I'm looking for whatever that next inspiration moment is for a kid who would who would say, oh, gee, I saw this and it had this impact on my life. And I wanted to do x y and z in in in stem fields or or specifically exploration or just because you know, they're excited to be a nerd, and and they, you know, they want to share that with other people, and I think that blends nicely to this next part? You're talking about this next. Big thing, you talked with the cast the writers the directors of first, man. Pretty recently. What was that? Like, I, you know, it's it's interesting to be a part of it because there is this churn of of Hollywood style reporters that that you typically see at at these types of events, you know, and and I almost felt up will I did a few times, you know, apologize to the stars. It's like, you know, I know this, you know, I know this is isn't something that you guys really look forward to really appreciate you taking the time. But but the thing that got me was that they were real, you know, I walked around with a pocketful of NASA. Meatball pens. Yeah. The the logo is we refer to it as the Meatball for those who who are aware of that. And and you know, I'd never seen actors more excited to receive a, you know, probably thirty five cent item in mass production to get a net NASA Meatball pen, and I remember handing it to Ryan Gosling. It's like you've probably seen more of this than than you wanna. He's like, no, I'm always happy to get something. Else? So so they were real, you know, when he had on that day, a denim jacket that had a huge NASA logo on the back of it. So I it was interesting to see that everyone was really engaged. They they weren't blowing it off because. Okay. I've got gotta sit through twenty-five interviews today. You know, when we rain when we got them talking about these these other things about NASA about exploration, and even about making the film. They seem to be genuinely interested in talking about it and Bill you were you were being interviewed. So, you know, you know, what the questions were like, yeah. It's it's an interesting prostate process when they do this sort of thing when they roll a movie out for the president media and immediate day like that lots and lots of people asking questions, but it's a great opportunity for us that that tell our side of the story. Yeah. And and the question I always get us the historian as well, how historically accurate is the movie, and I always have to. Some sort of answer to that that the that thing in my answer. Typically is okay. It's not a documentary. But within the bounds of telling you, really good story. It's you know. Hughes the facts, and the fact that they had, you know, a great writer who have really close attention to the facts director who is keen on the actress you're committed to it. And they had this whole panoply of advisers that Bob, and and Bert brought into the process, you know, former astronauts, and and family members who could who could advise them about the, you know, the the character of these people, and what things were really liked back. Then I think all of that had a huge positive impact on making the story. A better story and also more accurate from our perspective. But it was interesting. You can imagine if you could there are like five or six tenths out at the Kennedy center's press site, it's ninety four degrees with humidity with humidity about a thousand and a half percent. And they told us it's like, oh, well, you know, we'll be an air conditioned tens. And then I get. I get up to the first the power went out for a while. And the first thing that came to mind was a line in a movie where it's you know, you you have to fail down here. So you don't fail. But, but you know, they said they, oh, we'd have these air conditioned tents and got into the first tent to interview Ryan. And Claire and notice that these huge tubes of AC were pointed at the actors. The rest of the rest of us had nothing to be Bob is okay. And it was hot. You know, and it's hard enough talking to these people without sweating. So let's just add, you know, the Florida climate on top of that. It was just a hot miserable time. But everyone was really good about it. Yeah. That's good. And you said they were excited to right? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that you know, I Ryan Ryan Claire, I, you know, they they get a lot of the questions, and they get most of the attention and they gave good answers. But I really got to the childlike enthusiasm by the time. I got to, you know, the director Damian Chazelle just singer, you know. Patrick fugit. Yeah. And then Patrick off Lukas Haas though. Yeah. Those two were really really excited about playing the roles and really excited about space flight. So, but you know, it everyone was just genuinely thrilled. I think to to be involved with something that the that was related us. And it's really interesting too. Because some in some situations. I mean, look as hot Haas was at Kennedy Space Center meeting. Mike Collins, so to court stole met Buzz Aldrin there, and it was really interesting to sort of see the fictional person. And the real person together. Surreal. By the time. We had this this event at Kennedy Space Center front of media. We'd already had a relationship with the cast and the crew. Anyway, I mean, we brought them down Johnson before and and out the Kennedy. And so they did seen that something we'd talk before in and they were really into it. I remember we brought. Ryan Gosling through the Luna curation for Sony person. He was just amazed at you know, you know, getting to actually book rocks if upping around in his bunny suit there with all the rest of us know could tell who it was. But but he had a great time there. He got the pun on Xtra real spacesuit and try out some of that stuff and we walk them along the Saturn. Five Downer Johnson and. He asked a lot of really good questions about the about things that the clue showed that he was doing his homework. Well, I'm very curious to hear what they had to say. So, you know, why don't we bring in some of those questions that you were asking them we can start with the cast. We'll go with Ryan Gosling and Claire Foy together, then we have Patrick Fuji and Luke Lukas Haas. And then we'll and we'll wrap it up with Linda Hamilton at the end there. So let's let's start with that. And we'll come back and kind of discuss what they talked about. First off thanks for doing this, an easy one to doing a movie make you change the way, you think about the moon in any way because you look at it one way before and afterwards you thought while we've been there. Ryan's been. You know, we didn't actually go there. Right. I don't know if that's in the press notes, that's. That's. Yeah. I think this movie changed the way I think about a lot of things, you know. I realized how little I knew about all of it. And it was just. Cynic credible experience all the way round. I definitely look at it differently. Now. The windy. Are you doing? Looking out the window. From the film. It was very intimate. I mean, it everything was so powerful than so close. Was it hard to turn that off? After you finish the day's work. I mean, we, you know, did you were there days at okay, I've gotta go play with puppies or something. I mean because it was so much seriousness and much emotional intensity. Pardon me that was going on at the time. Let's case. Time. I felt very fulfilled in this film. I felt like and then I think when you go home it's easy to leave. The wet weather is because I think you don't take it home that he because you're not gonna for Arizona's off. It's going do wrong have changed that. I just felt that Lee guys. Well, can wait equal chance to kind of investigation and felt on dung when? Yeah. There was also the way that the film was structured in the way that we shot that just was such a momentum to it. There was always. You know, another challenge the next day to prepare for we started shooting just most of the the interactions between the family, and then we went onto the extra fifteen and then to the gym, and I ate, and then we ended with the whole thirteen in the in the main landing. So I mean, Paul in the in the moon landing. So it just was constantly escalating there was never an opportunity to really to stop. You know, we we just it was a it was a incredible opportunity. But if just felt like a great responsibility is it harder to play a role of someone of of historic figure. Now. Of course, you just coming off. The crown the Queen is still very much around for Neo. You've got, you know, of course, the family who is still there is a is it more challenging for someone who's real as opposed to a fictional character in a script or removing. He comes the different tangents. I find the challenge if I'm just playing fictional current facility. I'm making the right decision all the time. Whereas I feel you're paying somebody who has nip toys a knife. And you have to go on even if it's a fictional cartoon book. Can you have that kind of background? It means the least, you know, the facts of the state within e caught baldly. If your character limited. On choice. You have to stay kind of the reality of it. So I quite enjoyed quite enjoy knowing I can call date and then working within it. Would you go to the moon? Right. Did you fly? Okay. Guys. Bob jacobs. Nasa television, guys, thank you for doing. This. Tell me what did you learn about Nassar? You didn't know going into the project? Is there anything specific who you space fans to begin with? I was a big space fan. But I mean, it's a tough question because I learned so much. You know, there's a lot of specific things that I learned I mean. I wouldn't even know where to start. There's a lot. Yeah. I like I say this a lot that like I grew up in Utah with the very sort of traditional conventional perspective of NASA space exploration. But coming coming here and going to Houston and everything really gave me a look into like how the people think, and like what what the program sort of filter on problem solving life goal achievement that sort of thing is and and then also with the film. It's like what it took for the people of this era to actually accomplish the fees. Just fascinating fascinating stuff that I'd I'd never known before the one thing. I think that I learned is that sort of fascinates me. The most is at their Nasr's way of dissecting a problem, you know, and. Sort of that the thought process, as you know, as as you know, I can't I can't even describe it. Because it's so come all the things are so calm edited. And but what an amazing experiences. No, you were in full suit. I can't remember if you were in full soon at any time. But you are, you know, just the clothing does the setting help you get into character. Or could you do it? If you were just walloping around where you were. You know? The the clothing was very specific in particular way. Elliot, c dress was very sort of straight cut, you know, conventional reserved kind of kind of thing, and I honestly the closed like the pants really helped along like I had the high waisted, you know, pleated khakis, and that sort of thing, but you have the real cool. Yeah. Although the definite is based stuff was way. Yeah. I mean, you can't you literally you couldn't not like do it wrong. If you tried his. You're in it. You know, there's there's nothing you can do. You're stuck in that space. But it's it's it's a very weird experience. I mean, you can't you know, you can't scratching each is that sort of the the one thing that sits stepped out for whatever reason, I just have these issues and kind of move across Michael coffee. There's this not the mega do about it. You know? And you can't tell anyone issued for you. Because you know, they can't hear you all you hear is the the the wish of the air going into your helmet. But it it's you know, it's also really it's cool to look back at the at the photos of yourself is beautiful. I mean, these the the helmets and the way everything reflects off the glass, and I mean, it was it was just really cool. But whether with NASA, or you know, the Kadre of commercial companies that are coming online doing space exploration. If offer the opportunity, would you go? Yes. I absolutely would. Yeah. Absolutely. I in fact, I kind of hope. I probably will never have to. It'd be any big deal. Definitely. All right. Thank you. Did other view. Learn more about NASA. Once you got into it. Then you did going in. Obviously you had a lifetime agency. But was there? Anything new in for you space exploration for you before you got into the role. I, you know, I I had no idea honestly, how much it took to get to the move in how many sacrifices and lives and money in ingenuity went into it. And I I loved I love it the movie talks about this. And I loved the every mission the goal of kind of pushing beyond where we were on. And and that you have to fail in order to succeed in that was sort of in the ethos of NASA. John Orleans Mary. So, you know, it's interesting you said, especially Patrick FU and Lukas Haas were so excited. But it sounds like what really changed was their perspective and appreciation for what they do is almost like they took the role itself as a learning exercise. Like, oh, I didn't really realize that NASA do that. And it was important to understand what NASA does and how it operates in order to portray. Did you get a sense of that Bob? Yeah. I think that you know, one of the things. I worry sometimes that we dismiss what actors and directors and producers go through because we see them in a role, and we don't see all the homework that went into it before they actually played that role. So it's like, oh, why do they know they're they're an actor who was doing X Y Z. And and it's clear that everyone really did their homework. They whether they were into it at the beginning or not by the time, they got to it. They were really into it. Because you know, they got to see in learn so much about our history. And how we got from, you know, the then to now, and I think one of the things that the film captures really well is risk. And it's something that other films having a and they don't talk about it. I mean, it is a it is a story element. And you see played out in the film. But. There's a visual aspect that they capture in the execution of the missions that I don't think you really saw before. I think the closest one for me probably would have been Apollo thirteen. Just because of all the weightlessness that they shot their in. And they did that in this movie too. But there's a there. There's just something more. I I don't know how to explain it. And I don't want to give too much away for people who haven't seen it. But there is a the do address risk in a way that I think is is unique to this to this film. And I think that risk and maybe Bill you can speak a little bit more on. This is kinda why a lot of them, especially I was I was laughing real hard. When I heard Ryan to say, you know, you as do you want to go to the moon? He's like, no, he just said outright doesn't know. And I think it was it was not because he just wasn't interested. But I be I how I interpreted it was it was more of an understanding of how much risk goes into the. Space flights to understand the dangers the pressures of being an astronaut it's it's a lot to take on. Also, I think they built the real appreciation for just how much work goes into a mission like this. It's not like you. Yeah. You get picked to be an astronaut in the next day, you go climate space capsule Govind onto moon years and years of dedication to you know, an effort like that. And I think that. The the cast of this movie, but also other movies that were worked on usually come away with a a real appreciation for how hard all of us at NASA work to do whatever it is that our job is. And of course, particularly that shows unappointed end of the spirit, the astronauts, go do this. But, but they also see at the working level for other estimates how much effort goes into it. And now dedicated we are and how much we love what we do. I think the computer the computer graphics got to the point around gravity that it could accurately depict what human spaceflight is really light in a way that engages the public up until then, you know, we you saw a lot of SCI fi. And a lot of space movies. But, you know, Star Trek, for example, which everyone loves if they're not Star Wars saying and most of us around. Yeah. Most of us around here. What I call by Cy. We're where we like. But there's a lot that's taken for granted. You know, if you're on the start if you're on the enterprise, there's gravity there's air food magically appears they just transport themselves somewhere. And in a way that, you know, people grew up watching that just think that spaceflights easy. You know, it's it's it's so simple. We should be flying at you know, warp nine somewhere, and and the movies, I think the in in really through the work of bird, and I'm not just trying to Pat Burt on the back here with him sitting right next to me. But it's through that kind of work where producers and writers have found that there's a way to tell a realistic space expiration story. That's interesting that that can grab an audience, and I think that's been missing up until really the past decade and also wave receptive management. I mean that wants to take on these projects, which is really really great. I mean, we have. There's such enthusiasm around it, which is wonderful. And it's important to have that here too, which we do have. Yeah. And enthusiasm was a big part of it. You even talking about, you know, when you take on a big project like this you want to make sure the history is accurate, but you also wanted to make sure the family was supporting it too because it's a part of of Nessun people are real people are being represented here, and Bob you got to actually talk to some of the family members. How was that? You know, it's it's it was interesting. And like I said at the at the beginning, you know, it was important for to know that Rick and Mark Neil sons were supportive in at the time. Other mother Janet was alive. Unfortunately, she passed away from cancer before the film was was released. But I know Ryan had an opportunity to to speak with her. I know that was a regret of Clair's of not being able to speak with Janet before before Janet died. But, but it it was really interesting as Bert pointed out to have the actor and the person they're portraying in. Iraq. And you know, so we so we have, you know, for example, the actress who is playing Ed White's wife sitting next to Ed White's daughter, and and in kind of getting an understanding of, you know, for an actor sometimes it's the it's the promotion of the film, but for these people it was their lives and for her. She lost her father as part of the as part of the space program, and yet listen to her talk about and and be supportive of what it is that we're going to do in the future, really mental live. I mean, you you you just weren't ignoring it or playing it off because it was part of of Hollywood speak. You know, you you watch so much on television. And it's about who they're wearing or or all the superficial stuff of who their data. Eating and and and for us. It's very personal because these people were real, and and we just wanna make sure that they get it. Right. And it was again interesting to see the actors ABI, so not only respectful of the characters that they were playing. But again get so interested in the topic. And that's the beauty of this movie too. Because you see these people as human beings, and I think that the danger that happens when when you see these heroes that have gone up and done these amazing feats up in space. Is you think they're in bronze they're statues? But in reality, they're human beings. And that's the beauty of this movie. I think yeah. So let's let's jump ahead to those interviews you talked with Mark n Rick Armstrong, and then Bonnie white bear. Let's go ahead and jump to that. What makes you guys? So awesome. Thanks for doing this. You know, headed had an opportunity to film last night. The first time outside of kind of reviewing some of the scripts early on. What was it like for you guys viewing it kind of? I know you worked on it. But you know, when you're actually seeing it on the screen screen, and you actually lived it was what what were your feelings like that tone? Hill. Bob, I think you know, as like, you we we saw very early versions of the script and we've been involved with the project for for quite a while now. So so the the things that happened weren't so much surprise. I think what was what was surprising for me. Anyway, was the the strength that the performances and the music. I mean, those are things I did not I couldn't anticipate. But I felt that that those were just we're just tremendous would did you, you know, look at a scene and go. Well, our couch was like that or or no Mark really didn't do that to me. Well, actually, though the living room in the Reagan was fairy much like. Like it really was it was accurate. There was a scene that we had I hadn't seen before where I'm in my room with with mom in complaining that someone's best up my crayons and everything like that. And although that exact same didn't happen that kind of see happened all the time. That he always complaining. My door to keep them out. And doing that stuff. Was it was it? You know, a lot of the emotion to me, the film was very intimate very emotional throughout the entire thing. Was it was you guys live through that in reality? What was it like for you? I think this time we saw. Yeah. I agree with you. I think it is an an inside a sort of behind the curtain look at at what was going on at that time. And and I feel very good about the way our families portrayed. And and and the way the relationships in general are portrayed. I think it gives a a real nece to the that that that many people don't have a kind of they have this view of. A survey glamorous view of of things, and it was just which is people working hard trying to do their job. And and make the mission succeed. We're number of improvise scenes. Right out the house or in the pool or whatever that that. We didn't consult on really. But that I can remember anyway. But we're very like. Yeah. I remember stuff like that. I remember dad picking this up and. Stuff is somewhere chasing her up heightened seeking the house kind of stuff. You know us. There was somebody putting a wallet on his hand or something. We did all that kind of stuff. So they they somehow they tapped into that without us directly saying it really enjoyed seeing that, you know, after the seeing the film in speaking with you reckless last night. You know, I kind of touched on the you know to us. You know, Neil Armstrong is this conic character hero to us to you. It was mom and dad that you were dealing with. Was there any time that that it hits you who he was that this will he was an iconic hero figure known worldwide in really, I don't think it's ever really hit me. I mean, I I understand that it ought to. So I can work out that it should. But but I don't know that it ever has. And I'm not sure that it ever will it in the way that that you're describing and. Dad at home. And we were just a, you know, we were just a normal family. And and so that that never changed that way what that was true before that was true after that was that was a constant in our in our lives. And and I think that was very intentional on the part of our parents. Thank you. Congratulations on the film. Thank you. I think you guys were the hardest ones to think about how the interview because risk is a big theme in the film, and the film deals with it. I think in ways that other space movies haven't. So I was I was wondering both how how it impacted you when you were having to relive the transit tragedy over again and for you playing someone who is right next to. It certainly did bring bring up a lot of things and certainly tough times. But. Very very touched in proud and happy with how this was handled in. I think it was something that needed needed to be told, you know in. We all got there as a country. But there was a price that was paid. Then. But at the end of the day, we accomplished our mission, you still support expiration. I do. Yes. Yeah. You can definitely get a sense of the passion. And just you know, they they were kind of reflecting on their own lives as the film was happening. So yes that represented that representation is definitely important to the family. You know, I talked with Jim Brian Stein on on the podcast recently. Because when he first got here, he talked about the NASA family, and I feel like that something that even you know, I could definitely feel it here in Houston. I'm sure you feel it at headquarters. What is that? What is the NASA family? Do you guys feel it? Yeah. I think that's you know announcement. Well, my apologies for jumping in on that. But because there are two other people here. No shut up. But, but there really is this sense of wanting to be a part of something greater than. And and after the word van it's kind of open ended, and you know, we're not not to dismiss the work of of any other agency or any other corporation, you know, that instills that same type of spirit, but there's something about NASA that that just gets people excited. They wanna they wanna work together. They want to achieve something that hasn't been achieved before and in it does I think it it kind of brings everyone together. And there's a glue that holds people together like a family. Governor point is we take these annual surveys to see what we think about our jobs and and consistently. Nasa comes out as one of the best places to work in government year after year, I think largely because people love the mission here because then love what we do in excites them, not the people who work for department of agriculture are interested in their jobs. But I think people come to NASA with a real appreciation for the opportunities that they have the spend taxpayer dollars doing really interesting stuff that will make an impact on, you know, not not just our current world, but the future world, and and it really, you know, at the end of the day, it really sort of I think jazz is a lot of people, and and and be able to do that with other people who feel the same way. But yeah, that's that's the family feeling. I think in and I think we all benefit from that. And sometimes we really feel the family. You know, feeling the good family feeling around anniversay? Sary's as well when everyone's gathering together generations of people that have been at this agency that get together, and there's this sort of common bond, and I think you can't take that away. And I think it's really inherent here when you work here because there is an inner passion, and it's a very special place to be I've I've been doing I don't even know how many episodes of the podcast at this point. But just everyone I talked to it's it's such a pleasure because when I bring him in the booth, and I want to know the the information really, I I get to know a little bit about them. The the folks I'm interviewing and the people that are behind these missions. And I can tell you every single one of them are very passionate about what they're doing. And I think that's really important to kind of get across. And I think that's a good Bill. You mentioned, you know, make sure the taxpayers are getting what they want. I think working with these worth these filmmakers and accurately portraying NASA and making sure people kinda feel a part of it and understand the culture here is so important and working with the director screenplay. Screenplay writer, Josh singer and director Damian Chazelle, I think was a huge part of that. So so why don't we jump ahead to that interview? Bob. And then we'll come back and talk about how how telling this story is so important. When some what are you gonna approach for the script? Is it? You know? Oh my gosh. What a wonderful opportunity or. Oh my God. How do I tell the story of someone silicon it? It was both absolutely both. You know, it started with read engine Hansen's both. I man about Neil. And just sort of being amazed by realizing how much I didn't know, you know, I thought I had a rough handle on Neil Armstrong as an individual in the moon landing. But reading this book, I mean, I I there was so much about his life in about the mission itself that I just didn't know, and I was amazed to find out how how difficult this this mission. Really was you know, I think history has away maybe of of obvious skating. Some of those details, and you sort of look back fifty years Henson. Thank we'll these were superheroes, and they sort of accomplished. It was almost easy for them. And to see the sacrifice to see the cost to see the doubt and uncertainty and just the same commitment to a goal. That it took. I think was really inspiring. But it made me think everyone involved in the film feel a tremendous responsibility. You know, it's like these were real heroes. And you want to try to do them Justice. I was going to go there next. It's you know, is is there a different kind of weight tween a fictional film in something that is rooted in history. Absolutely. I mean, this was my first time doing a movie about history. There wasn't just not something that just came out with. And so I think yeah, I felt an ad in responsibility for sure. And and I think it was part of the reason why we we tried to we were so lucky to be able to just spend much time with possible with people who knew the reality people who knew Neal like his sons, Rick, and Mark, and and and his ex wife Janet other members of his family colleagues of his everyone NASA that we could talk to we were lucky enough to shoot here for a little bit. We were lucky enough to get to go to Houston a bunch and. Search there. Nasa really open its doors to us in a way, that was just tremendously generous of them. And without which I I don't think we would have been able to make the movie because if you can't do it authentically if you can't try to do it accurately felt like it wasn't worth doing it. At all. I think the thing that struck me in watching the film was both the capture of the human elements in the human drama in the intimacy and the emotion, but at the same time, the the hardware the risk. I mean, it was both this reality in special effects in reality. And in the human reality. I don't know if that makes sense or not. But hopefully, yet I mean that that that was actually kind of in many ways, the the goal was we sort of know we had two movies in a way we had the movie that was on the ground the family portrait, essentially of the Armstrong's at this incredible time in their life. And then of course, we had the space movie, we have the movies missions. And we wanted them to feel like the same movie. So we shot everything in the same documentary style, we were taking a lot of inspiration from documentaries. The period and archival footage. You know that the astronauts themselves shod in the life magazine, photography, the Armstrong's and other astronaut families at that time, you know, just a tremendous amount of resources visually that we had to just draw inspiration from. But we wanted the audience to feel like they were there. Whether it was in the house, or in the soul, like the audience themselves were, you know, right there in the rooms with Neil Janet right there in the capsule with Neil, and Dave Scott or Neilan, Mike, and buzz and. So again to get that. Right. You know, a took a lot of research, but but we were really lucky to have. Collaborator of mine. The production designer Nathan Crowley and Lena sand grain into the camera work and Mary's offerings into the costumes. Just everyone was so on the same page about board. It was he at this. Right. Did not just wing it it. So I think that helped a lot. Yes. Or no question, would you go? When I go to space, would you offer the opportunity, I would love to my worry is that why I might fear towards no is that I might just be too damn afraid. Fair enough. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You know, the first thing that came to mind when I heard that the two of you were doing this together was how you bridge the gap between a historian who is capturing the facts of what had happened and a screenwriter who's trying to plug into the emotion had how did you guys actually work it out? Well, we think that is such a good question that we actually talked about this onset in our publishing a book for the script is published. But then on the right hand side of the paid strips to look inside inside is a running conversation between Josh about what's over there on in the script because we had conversations about at all if there's something that's going to not be one hundred percent, historically, accuracy. We wanted to go ahead and admit to and explain to to the newer of the movie until reader of the book will why did we make that decision in a why why did we choose? Why couldn't we go with it? So it really is. If you read or book. You'll be able to see kind of the exchange that we had over the course of many months to sort of work out these issues. Yeah. I would say that, you know, the good news here was that both and I were pretty committed to giving very accurate representation both of the missions and also of the private life. Folks, you know, one of the more famous astronaut families. There there's been and so you know, we were committed to working with Jim to nominally, you know, take in China taking his as much of his book as we could which which is encyclopedia can incredible. But then also pushed beyond and and that meant sitting with Jim having Jim introduced us to folks, you know, whether it's Gina trying to who's an engineer. The only of tedium market wreck, you know, Janet in June meal sister. You know, freight Hughes Joe angle. Dave Scott ripped us apart in early drafts. This is really helpful. You know to say, okay. This isn't going to stand. If we wanted we really wanna meet meals bar. We're gonna have to up our game. And and you're very committed to that again, both in the personal and in the professional, and and Jim really was our our guide in terms of, you know, obviously, it's book is incredible. And then when you'll be on to help us reach out. So when he first get a project like this, especially with someone so conic so much written about him in history. So well known do you look at it is all my God. What a great opportunity or. Oh my God. What have I got myself into? Well, you know, you say well known since he's in all the history books, but not really well. He's known as this shadowy figure coming down the ladder and making saying these things things words, but really in terms of his personal story. And even a lot of things about his career from everything naval aviation test pilot years and then what happened to him afterwards. No, really terribly well known. And so I think what was really great about the film is that they they they understood what was new from my book, and they knew and they knew that needed needed to be an hands. And so it was it's this is a completely fresh look at Armstrong even people who live through, and we're we're live in watching TV. They really, you know, they got PR of explanations Armstrong's career, and they got like magazine coverage, but they didn't they didn't really get thought any story. What was going on inside personal like the book covered that in the movie really does. That was the amazing thing to me. About reading James how much was not knowing really to the wider public. You know, I mean Simpson himself most of his friends didn't know yet. Let alone the water public. You know, or that he had stepdaughter shortly before he joined project. Gemini, you know, the the fact that, you know, little facts, I would talk to mealy, you know, NASA historians, I would talk to about you know, mentioned Paul nickel on the fact that Declan recommend Neil for project. Gemini, you know, or the astronaut program in and they'd be. Where'd you get where's that from his puts Jim's book, but it's not widely known, you know, in in. I think that there is so much about this story that is surprising. You know, in terms of the journey, and how hard it was, you know, Jim, and I've talked about I feel like there's a little bit of a meta narrative the sugar coats, everything, you know, that it it seems like going to the moon was easy. It seems like these are superheroes. You did. It. Ordinary folks who work very, very, hard and sacrificed greatly. It wasn't easy at all. And frankly to me that's much more inspiring. And it makes me think oh, all those great things we want to try to achieve as as a civilization as nation. You know, it makes me feel like they are more. She was supposed to last because it makes me understand. No, it's not that they had some magic sauce back in the sixties. It's that they were willing to put in the work and to sacrifice both in terms of personal sacrifice personal cost. But also in terms of lives, and that's what we'll need to do. We wanted you know, cheap. Great things in future. Gentlemen. Thank you. So a huge part and Bill you touched on this a little bit was was going back and sort of working with them to flush out. You said this is this is not a documentary. This is not I it's different. It's a feature story, and they have a drama to tell. So you know, how do we when we're talking about the history? Where are you finding it? You know, what what what what sources are you pulling from to make sure that we're telling them right story. Of course, an had history program since the year afterwards founded history has been around since nineteen fifty nine. So we have a pretty good archive in addition to the national archives, which are collected anyway. But, but we have a pretty good, you know, instead of reference materials right on-site here. And we also have the advantage of lots of people that are working here a long time and knowing people who used to work here. So. League. And and other new former folks who worked here. So there is no end of of resources to the check facts on. And and and we. Question comes up we go where? To go where the data is. And and make sure it's presented appropriate to the the folks are asking the question and bills, really, really smart. I've I've made my living on behavior. Remember weird and random facts that no one else. All right trivia partners, secured nice thinking back, you know, especially we listed off a couple of movies, especially recently that we've been working with you mentioned interstellar mission mentioned the Martian. I think there's this sort of shift now, and I don't know if you guys can kind of sense the same thing, which is which is going more towards the responsibility of accuracy and making sure that accuracy even in fiction, you whether historical or fictional piece of work is is representing are you guys getting a sense of that that that that filmmakers and and documentary writers want even more accuracy than maybe in the past. You know, I it's interesting. I'm I'm seeing lines cross. And and I don't mean this in a a main way for some of the documentary producers, but I see I see documentaries leaning more toward the salacious and hyping. And the real in the film industry being able to portray it more accurately without the hype. And you know, and it's all about building an audience, and and and again, we're just really sensitive to it. Again, we kind of use this feasible fiction idea as our guide, and and we've just, you know, in the NFL boils down to how successful as the project going to be and with you know, when one one space film does. Well other studios are going. We can make money off that let's let's let's do a space film. And you know, so I, you know, clearly, it's it's a business and in the industry wants to do. Well, and I think we've been fortunate to benefit from from the interest in from the success of some of the earlier projects. I think that people sort of get into it. They become, you know, trivia geeks like the rest of us aren't getting interested in and they wanted to be as accurate as possible. So you you get set designers who want sets the look, right? And you've got customers who the pitcher of the clean room from the X date. So we want to make sure that the jackets cleaner looking right. And have the right logos onto back. We get all kinds of questions like that. All the time. Sometimes the appetite for this sort of information is insatiable. Framed figures. Fortunately, for me, the the the director started sending me questions, and I figured out that there are other people who knew the answers more than I did. And I was a firm them out the next thing, you know. Yeah. It'd be hearing back from. Director saying, hey, thanks for pointing us onto this guy. Because they put it this onto this guy who gave us answer about this other thing, and and pretty soon, I I'm convinced that at least Hidden Figures. Anyway, probably about a third of the people who work for NASA to answer the question for those guys all kinds of things all kinds of people and the David they wanted to rent with it. That's so curious. I I think I find it fascinating. That just maybe the shift. I like you say with the documentary stories and the feature stories, I think, that's that's fascinating. But just how accurate C itself, you know, you see a successful film that portrays accurate science and other filmmakers and writers look at that as a successful project and think ooh, I'm gonna make something like that. And then it spreads. You know? Now, you have spreading accurate information. I think I would define that as success on Nasr's part. You know, I think we also have a smarter audience, quite frankly, because there's there's some documentary content. That's that's generated from the industry because of cable television. I mean between discoveries national geographic's history channel's all these channels are looking for content and a lot although some do cross the line others try to tell the story as well. And I just think the public. Just gets smarter and smarter and gets more curious through this sort of, you know, informational exchange, and that's actually that's actually really good thing. I think. Yeah. Material for example, on the NASA website about your historical facts that it's really easy for people in the quickly. Fact, check something. Did that really happen? And it can actually look it up and find out and. I don't know whether that place a positive impact. But I think movie producers don't want their movie being criticized for fiddling with the truth. And so it's important to them to get as many details as accurate as possible, and the beauty of first man also is that it sort of dispelling, hopefully, helping to dispel the, you know, the conspiracy myth about the moon, and which has been fighting for many years, and we've had people that helped us out like Mythbusters and others to help sort of. I don't know if you want to talk about that Bob at all. Oh, yeah. No. That was you know, and and and it's interesting I've been at NASA long enough now that I see these these the the pendulum swing back and forth. And there was a I'm not going to dignify the network that aired the so-called documentary, but it challenged whether or not we actually landed on the moon. And as a conspiracy. And so we we had a conversation with the executive producer of at the time Mythbusters. And and said, you know, no one's really taken this on. If you guys are interested. Let us know. And they ended up doing I think it was a two hour premiere for one of the seasons taking on whether or not we really landed on the moon. And of course, concluded that we did but fast forward to two thousand eighteen I don't know how many people actually remember that broadcast. So it I it's it or things that we constantly deal with we'll hammer it flat for a little while. And then it'll come back, you know, one of the in one of the things that I find a little sad is for example, one of the other cable channels has, you know, the hidden inside NASA, untold story files or something crazy like that. And they they tell the story of Apollo ten where the space craft the command module and lunar module. Separated? And there was this weird tone, and it was could it be aliens? Could it be UFO's, and and people were running around trying to figure it out? Now once we got down to it. We realize that even Mike Collins dealt with it in in his in nineteen seventy four book, but at any rate people were running around trying to figure it out because we were getting media inquiries, and it was like, well, I'll just call and I picked up the phone and call Jean Cerdan. And gene was like. Well, I bet I know why you're calling and started going. So he he explained it to us. But you know, we're running into a time now where we're losing those those first generation of explorers, and we're not going to have them to go to anymore. So it it really is important to have people like Bill around in the work that the history offices do across the agency to capture it. Because again, we're just not going to be able to pick up the phone and call someone who walked on the moon to ask them the question. We've only got four left who've walked on the moon. And and you know, we we just have to capture their stories and continually find ways to keep those stories alive as we start leaning into what's next so people don't forget. Yeah. I feel like, you know, it's it's not it's going to be I I would I would think impossible to get everyone on board and say, Yup. Moon landing totally happened. And that is. Fact, and there's no questions about it. You know, I feel like conspiracies they're just they're just going to be out there. We have we have quite a few out there even now, but you know, I kind of wanted to start with this point. But I think it's a good place to end based on this conversation is what is the purpose of communicating here at NASA, Bob, especially from your perspective as the acting associated ministry of communications. Why do we need to communicate? Well, I think it's based in our founding documentation, where the original nineteen Fifty-eight space act says that we're going to share to the whitest practicable, and I don't know that anyone's ever used the word practicable in a sentence before. But it's in that document everything, but it's in that documentation in it's evolved where you know, the very essence of lying. Nasa was created was that in the Cold War? You know, the Soviet Union had a very closed off militaristic space program that was an open in NASA was founded as a civilian space agency and everything was going to be available in. I think historically we've done that from our triumphs. And our tragedies were very public. And and I think that's our role is to help facilitate that story and to help present it to the public. And and whether it's through the factual information that we do through our news releases and our scientific and technical findings and our missions or whether it's through movies, and documentaries. And and toys where LEGO is doing a series or collector. Figures where American Girl did a Hispanic explorer who wants to go to Mars one day. I mean, they all play a role in helping share what it is at the agency does. And and and to me, again, it's more than just sending a spacecraft to land on a point on another planet. You know, it kind of gets to addressing some of those fundamentally issues of humanity. You know, are we alone? Where did we come from? And where we going. You know is this survey of the species, or is this something that we do just because it's interesting and fun, and that's what great nations do. So again, that's that's kind of a long winded answer, but it gets too. I think the crux of why it is that we communicate in that is to share the story of of our future and where we're going. I think that is a beautiful summary. Bob Burt and Bill thank you so much. Coming on the podcast today. I really appreciate your time. Especially all three of you together and Bob special. Thanks to you for interviewing guests for first, man. And then actually bringing it here on the show, and we can actually have a discussion around. This was fascinating. So thank you again. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks for having us. Hey, thanks for sticking around. Today. We talked with Bob Jacobs Burt Alrich and Bill Berry and the cast and crew of the movie I man, so we appreciate them coming on. This is coming up in the middle of some of the fiftieth anniversary of the Apollo program and the missions that coincide with that you want to know some of the history and some cool things doing here at NASA. I've got a NASA dot gov slash specials slash Pala, fifty to learn more about what we're doing. Otherwise, you can check out some of our other podcast. We have all across the agency gravity cyst. Planetary science Nessin Silicon Valley from out in the Ames research center in California and rocket ranch. From the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. You can go to dot gov to find out more about what we're doing all across the agency. You can go to our social media sites are at NASA. Facebook Twitter, Instagram, use hashtag asset on your favorite platform. The show make sure to mention it's four he's podcast. This episode was recorded on Tober fifteenth twenty eighteen thanks to our experience. Pat, ryan. Moran. Jim wilson. Stephanie sheer Holtz Jason towns, and John Rick. Thanks to Jacobs Bertel Rick and Bill Berry for coming on the show today. And thanks to the actors and actresses Ryan Gosling clear, Patrick, Lucas, Haas and Libya, Hamilton screenwriter, Josh singer, author James Hansen director, Jamie Giselle in the family of the stork, astronauts, including Rick and Mark Armstrong and Bonnie white bear from the movie I man for taking some time to speak with us. Happy fiftieth anniversary to Ness program. We'll be back next week.

NASA Bob director Bob Burton Bill Neil Armstrong Ryan Gosling NASA Johnson Space Center Lukas Haas Ryan Ryan Claire NASA Bert Bob Jacobs Kennedy Space Center Bill Berry Josh Josh Katherine Johnson Hollywood Burt Alrich Florida
The NASA Worm

Houston We Have a Podcast

52:50 min | 10 months ago

The NASA Worm

"Houston we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space. Center episode one fifty four. The NASA worm I'm Gary Jordan, and I'll be your host today. On this podcast we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, astronauts even artists to let you know what's going on in the world if spaceflight. The worm is back now before you start practicing your dance moves. I'm talking about the NASA worm logo. You'd recognize it if you saw it. It's that Retro Looking logo where NASA A is spelled out and read. We call that one. The worm, and the blue one is called the meatball at least informally in the official NASA style guide. The meatball is called the insignia and the worm is called the logo type. The worm has been retired for almost thirty years and any official NASA product in that time has been branded with just the meatball. But just prior to the launch of Nasr's spacex Demo to mission in May, twenty, twenty NASA brought back the use of the worm, and it's now being used for select missions and products. The worm design is super famous, and even though it's been retired, it still very much part of pop culture. With a new era of human spaceflight upon us, the worm is making a comeback so to describe this logo type, and its history is the very man who designed it, Richard Dany it was he and his firm Dany Blackburn that was selected for NASA's rebranding. In the mid seventies, Richard is an extremely experienced and award winning graphic designer, and on this podcast he describes the journey from the worms creation to now and what it means for NASA future now that it's back. So, here we go the NASA worm logo type with Richard Dany. And Joy. Mark. Own. Richard Dany. Thank you so much for coming on Houston. We have a podcast today. Hey. It's great to be with you. Thanks for the invitation. What an honor to be talking to you! the person who invented such an iconic logo. I want to take it from really the very beginning really just a brief. Summary of your. Up to the time that you started working with NASA, just to understand who you are, and where you come from okay sounds fine. Well I have an unusual background so very briefly. Give you some of the history. I was born on a farm in Oklahoma and believe it or not nineteen thirty four well, let significant date because you know it's the middle of the Great Depression. And The overlay, which quite fierce was dustbowl Oklahoma, and frankly I don't recommend that. It's a start you know what I mean, but on the other hand it was a great beginning because everything when up from there. You know upwards. Youngest of four children and. Student and very involved in music. I play all the bands and even jazz quartet when. which is great, so we worked high school events and dances. We had no art but I drew constantly. So you know this? Was Early Warning what I was going to do with my life I think. And then we went on to college. of course attended. Oklahoma, State University. starting engineering, which was at something my folks wanted to do. at Ou, I I I didn't like it. Although I think it's played a great role, my career, frankly so I don't feel wasted time I switched to art. Because no design was offered it, Oklahoma state. I'd also had a jazz, quartet and college. Came within literally within a whisker pursuing. As a career I'm awfully glad that I chose design but it did know that those always you was not proper. background wasn't good enough, so one of my professors helped me. get located that used to Grad school so immediately on my graduation, drove straight out to UCLA has started specializing ended online. Thank God 'cause it all worked. Great And then the other caveat to this is. I began my freelance career in Dallas. in my entire six decade career as an independent practice for proud of that. So then on to New, York and nineteen sixty three. And that's when we really got involved in some of the really big stuff. Like, what what were some of the first things that you start tackling? Well we did Real life before NASA, it was you know I was freelancing, so I started anything I could get jackets in peripheral shop like that. However, we very quickly got into corporate work and And worked with people like US. Information Agency there in Washington General Dynamics. Kind of got me into this world of aerospace be. Ford Foundation Time Inc. Work for Westinghouse, and you know some really good names. So at that time the field was wide open and for someone like me to start freelance in New York, was almost unheard of, or you wouldn't do it today. Let me say that curious. It would be impossible. But. That was sort of the background You know and it all happened pretty fast I'm not to say it wasn't hard work, but it was. It was great. It was a lot of fun, too. So I mean it sounds like you got into the world of aerospace even early on in your career, but I'm I'm kind of curious. He said you are. You're drawing back in back in Oklahoma. What were those things that you were drawing? What were you interested in putting on Pretty interesting. That's a great question actually. I was drawing mostly cars. And I could have gone in that direction to automotive design I of course, I do planes to and and and athletes of the era of Budwood because local university, and so you know great, football teams, and I draw the athletes, but I think I just kept returning cars and I love them to. Would you know and real modern designs with people were thought were very ambitious and. Create stuff, but I mean. I think it was all pointed direction. You know it wasn't. It wasn't ver- exactly peripheral. It was really good very much, so see see. I can see maybe about that. Push for from your parents to go into engineering. But you said that just didn't work for you. It was you were more passionate about art. What was it? What was it about? Our May that lack thereof with an engineering that made you want to pursue the path that you did. Well you know you can college, and of course you can meet all the students, and and you become acquainted with what's being And, but always had the music and art that was really my thrust from time a little boy as say, carve stuff constantly always drawing so in college I became aware through other students what they were doing and I just thought they were having a lot better time than I was, and I did have quite a bit of ability I could paint. so I started looking into that program and I actually switched in my sophomore year and I was very happy for the rest of the college experience, but but I still wasn't meant to be an engineer, and what's fascinating about that is I won't get into this later, but I've worked with engineers and scientists a great deal of my career. It wasn't just Mansa and So you know it all fits I think when you have orientation, or it could have done that if the platform kind of thing you know, and it's a good place to start from a good launch pet if you will. Marry Nice I want to skip ahead to to NASA the kind of the base of of this is, is this logo but sort of give a little bit background for our listeners? We're talking about two logos that are the I guess identifiers of NASA. Can you describe what they are what they look like? Thirteen to marks for the agency there was only one then, and it was called a meatball affectionately call the meatball and blue sphere with kind of Chevron shaped in it a wedge shaped. With lips around and sprinkling of stars in the middle, so it's very allegorical sort of. Symbol? When we came in design when we saw the cross section of of. Of Work being done by all the centers we. We went the other way and decided we needed something very simple. That can anchor the whole program, but so the worm, which is also affectionate term now the logo type. it's a warm red logo with custom letters, which of course at one stroke letters suggesting. Technology propulsion lift and our intention was trying to see just the future. Without hyping it, you know and make it very very useful, and that's the way that worked out. So let's Let's dive a little bit into the history here. there there, there was a transition point you know from. We talked a lot on this podcast about just the Apollo missions, and if you were to watch any of those missions that that meatball that you're discussing, that was the logo that was the one that everyone was tied to, but around Was Nineteen. Seventy four was the time that you started coming in and and they were looking for a redesigned. Tell me a little bit about that. yeah, the Apollo Program, which by the way I was glued to the set all the time. So since I'm a little boy, I love flight and and then of course space exploration just hooked me completely, so I did follow the Apollo Program and was very involved before we got the call so to speak. but for the agency you know they? They were no easy headlines after Apollo. There was no publicity coming automatically. And is a very quiet time agency and I think they'd be very nervous. anxiously awaiting really shuttle program to kick in, and they're going to understand it because. It had been so easy with the Walter Cronkite. So the world you know hyping making happen of, but this is very quiet i. think is one of the reasons. That this program was initiated was to fill that void, but it wasn't. Designers ideas the national endowment of the arts. They created Any a short They created a program called Federal Design Improvement Program. and. They felt that federal graphics were very weak and behind, and of course that's true, so they took it upon themselves to do research missions on every agency and collect you know archival data and and everything that the agencies were doing evaluated and decided whether the agency should have resigned or not, and one of the very first one stay they wanted to attack was a NASA and the reason was it was such such a high profile, and so they wanted to if they could get an early victory with. NASA than ever. All the other agencies would follow, and of course that's that's exactly what happened. So that was that was a big deal. Then this. This was a very forward leaning at the time. So how did how did Dana and Blackburn gets elected? Well a Danish. Formed the fall before we got the call, and and that would have been a nineteen seventy-three day name. Blackburn was less than a year old. When we got the R., P. But my partner Bruce Blackburn had been with her. My guys, not rather famous firm, and he had recently designed the the US bicentennial symbol, while he was there and any was very very fond of that mark, and and I think to this day I believe. That was the main reason we made the shortlist. And it's interesting Gary that that. At that time because salsa, who they only about? Seven or eight firms? down the road. We did a number of other programs It just kept growing instrument geographically I mean geometrically so you know each time they almost doubled the number of candidates. They brought in to bid on jobs, but We were as I say we were all very early on and I think bicentennial the key. Wonderful now now when they did bring you on, I'm sure they had some visions of of what they wanted. What were those key elements? They wanted mentioned a few. They wanted to future. They wanted it. something about left What were those key elements? They wanted for this new for this new design. Well. It's interesting because I don't know that NASA. and I think they were fairly typical of those early agencies. I don't know that they felt they needed to redesign particularly though they knew they were, they were in a bit of trouble they. They certainly needed more publicity. symbolic kind of a high of some kind and so You know what what what? Any a wanted them after they looked at their. Dirk collateral archival work. They were shocked as we were, we saw it and we couldn't. Believe is coming out of the space agency. What had happened though I? Mean you know the centers were still independent? They yes, they were part of NASA, but they behave pretty much on their own they. They really weren't happy with anything that came out of Washington at that time. And it's funny because he to this very day. I know that there's very competitive and I get that I I think it's a good thing. Probably, but he was everything from funding on. You know focus they just. They all think they're wonderful and I think they are too so the net of that is that. The work was extremely a disparate and Messi. Low Standard, and the reason was. They didn't have a single graphic designer on staff of any of the centers, maybe JPL which exceptional work. Compared to the other centers, so is the wild west graphics and. Anything goes and so I think headquarters. Kinda got religion hurry unrealized that they had to pull all this together that they couldn't have ten or eleven centers, looking like you know disparate and and having their own family styles. Our job was really to pull it all together. I like to say one one agency. That was the mission. It went beyond aesthetics. It was really the goal organization to to try to Meld them from the old. Days you know into one asa, and that was a pretty big charge actually, and they can't be done just with graphics, but it can help. And that's what we were challenged to do. Now now, of course you started with that work, and you already mentioned some of the values that you wanted in this this new logos. Simplicity was one of them I know I know the one of the challenges with the meatball itself was there was problems reproducing and putting it onto things that having this simpler logo made. It made it a little easier to put on things that right. That's absolutely true of course the GPO? I can say this now because they did very substandard work at that time. And and and meatball didn't help because it was very complicated, and it was in multicolored and You know it it sometimes it reporters like a thumbprint. You know it just it couldn't be done. So and my should quickly add that I'm told I don't have personal experience to GPO does much better work today. Also the original meatball was a little more complicated than it is today, so it had more going on in. It made it even harder to reproduce. Though are we settled on? Month Of A honing? Our logo type. Making it more contemporary and anchor. Program so if you use across the board, all mediums and and Part of our presentation the show. publications form signing vehicles aircraft shuttle know. Even, exotic spacecraft. and that then that standards manual well, actually presentation was in the. Fall of seventy four. manual came out nineteen seventy five But that that was what we were trying to do was to. To create something that was would last a long time, and would anchor this all this disparate work It wasn't an easy task, but it was exciting because this just superagency. Which don't get me started. I'm just as excited about it today as it was back. Well well, this is curious you talk about the The the stakes here about this logo, but as I understand it. You presented one solution when you actually designed this. Is that right? Do. That's true and and that, and that was very controversial at the time. And and everybody would agree that it would be controversial today. In fact, most design firms present multiple, we still kind of adhere to the idea that there's a best solution and we show that I and more often than not client, says yes but that was very risky. That was different wasn't gardening our contract at all? We did about twenty five demonstrations at great time and expense. Showing what it would look like on everything, you know every two-dimensional, every three dimensional item that I just mentioned. Training vehicles aircraft shuttle. You know it and we played it out against. the backdrop to make it a true. All capped Cap P. Program. prior to that you know the meatball. I've been kind of like an ornamental stamp. You know I mean it was just applied to buy subcontractors now just by NASA course to everything that moved sticker on. So what we needed was You know family program that would bring it all together and make it work. We even used as a stem word I'm you're probably where had like NASA news? NASA information and and it really did extend it so beautifully and This is this is what happened And you know. That was the difference in the presentation. I think local. Itself was very controversial to the group. That we presented to. Boeing started out demonstrations, and you could see the difference in their receptiveness in the room you know. Very emotional because it's the first time they'd really seen what it could be. How expansive the program could be and how cohesive. You know so all one agency. That part of the story really is interesting. The reaction to this I'm sure you you have folks that have been there from the Apollo era that maybe were in love with this with the meatball and did not want to change. There was a little bit of a lot of pushback there and I know specifically two names that. Come to mind or that I that I found, James Fletcher and George Lowe had opinions of their own, just just the color scheme and all kinds of things. It was not a you know there's not a universally accepted thing. Knowing the session was certainly among the most interesting I've ever experienced in the six were extremely high. I think both of them being fantasy. As probably today would be the case they've used for things through that lens rather than an art or acidic lands. but but you know so. There's a lot of contracts no Dr Fletcher, and I say this and all generosity because. because. He's a great guy. We we did wonderful work with him over the years Just didn't get it. And I know when he when he saw the mark, and they came back. Dr Lowe was talking to me, said well. What do you think and he said well I think something's missing here and you know. What is that? He said well there. No Cross strokes the today's and Doctor said well, yes, so what's wrong I? Don't feel we're getting our money's worth, and you know the the fact is that. That's one view. It was pretty Barton, rendering you know, and now today you see just copied and over and over in my lecture say do thing on Copy Guy Culture. Thousands of marks are out there that imitate this, but so that was one thing the other thing was this warm. Read that we use which. I think doctors thought. They he commented that he thought would be more appropriate because space is blue. And then he was corrected by Dr Low saying no space is black. So there were a lot of things that we knew that they'd want blue. In fact, all of our early work was based on that color scheme. You know that Palette but we thought that The warm red was indicative of a Real Candle Agency and certainly as it was that. And so but but in the end we prevailed than they. They got the logic of it here again, sort of an engineering or tasting. Logic rather than just got. You know the static so You know it did work and we got the go-ahead to do the program. Well wonderful. Tell me about that now. I know like you talked. About are ready. You will lose too many elements of. How logo type would actually appear on certain things and this beautiful thing called the style guide so tell me about that process. Well the the Programs like this were done in the in the corporate world, but nothing really institutional world, and certainly nothing of this scale magnitude, so we were, we were adopting things that were very commonplace in in the corporate world, now is to create a a document. Style manual that would. Be used but I just everybody all staffers all the specialists and certainly inside and out the agency and NASA unique in that it had. Tons of subcontractors who were very important partners and they were used to doing whatever they wanted to, so we had to create a manual that was. Was Pretty not only well defined, but it was fairly strict in the sense. That you know that we had do's and don'ts and We're trying to prevent mistakes being made or on Bi as they say, both as and their contractors But. We also decided that we wanted to do a tour Oriel, and that's what made it a fairly substantial manual a little longer than most at the time. Where we did, we started with some publications design grids and just trotted amount. We found out. Without designers. They're going to need some fundamental help. That turned out to be very very. Good decision because the publications improve very quickly but in the manual then their specialty sections on everything that I mentioned from signing to you know aircraft to. Even. Did this shuttle in great detail and some of the spacecraft that were being just developed at the time you know and We were able to mark those things and apply it, so it's considered even to stay. Perhaps the most thorough manual and most understandable and I did a podcast just last week with A. Guy He said I read this thing. Front words backwards about three times as he was an engineer and he's I don't think I've ever found anything so easy. Understand also with guidance now today. We wouldn't put that much guidance into Emanuel because. Our world is more sophisticated. But that time it was something we needed to do, and it was very very helpful, I think. So, tell me about some of those elements. You're talking to a guy who unfortunately did not read it forwards and backwards three times. So, tell me about some of those things what were what were these elements? That were very helpful to others. Will. The most extreme might be that we. We spent on two years, not full time, but working off and on on business forms, because we had to work GPO and like that, so really about structuring with the whatever the printing techniques were at those times typesetting. and detailing it not only that simplifying and we were able to take forms across NASA which were just an enormous grouping and simplify them into too much fewer forms, thereby saving money and the language, which some people in insurance. We're simplifying documents that time. That's what we did, and so it wasn't really a design issue it was it was a detail and engineering, issue and We were able to get those down there much shorter. Christopher forms and save a great deal of money on that, which is never talked about much, but I think it's important. For Government on the other hand if you're talking about. Vehicle. the vehicles on every. Every center were different at that time, so they were able. You know a lot of them are just saying. The name of the center? But it was no connection to the the larger entity NASA. Headquarters so we. We signed out I. Mean we did plans for? The type of vehicle ground vehicle that they had as well as aircraft. Sometimes we had to go out and measure aircraft and really go into that level of detail so that the entire fleet. was. had one luck. It's really quite beautiful. of course the shuttle went through many machinations and That was feature in the book and in the end the the the scientists people who know how to make fly had a huge input and we were very secondary, because we weren't getting the way of success. You know what I mean. So All this stuff was Kinda back and forth and With a lot of cooperation with the staff and it was. It was really an interesting process. The manual itself. Was? In Ninety five and I would say it was about half complete, and then over the next ten years we did. I was external art director for those ten years. Or designed director proper term. And we added many supplements to it and expanded out to ninety pages or so, and then there were a lot of special projects to that had nothing to do with the manual. about eight years out we did. A publication called the manager's guide. to NASA graphic and it. It showed you know the the various mediums. We've been talking about here and I showed him in implementation or finish form. To show there was much sure programme and Very much In place. Now, I understand the worm You know we're talking about the the sort of mid seventies here for the rollout of that. It had a run of just about two decades. Can you tell me about that? That two decades span, and then when Dan Goldin comes in in the early nineties. Yeah sure well, those were pretty smooth times, and as I say we did. We ended up doing remember doing a poster series for high schools. Once called going to work in space. and and the theme was there was it was what was going on at the agency the time actually there was a lot of pressure on us to the agency to show that the money was being well spent, and that It wasn't being wasted on You know jet jockeys just lying around in up there, so We did quite a few things that were making this point about space technology for the benefit of Man on earth and You know so. That was kind of a mood of the time and we were. We were able to do that. Then of course, and as a matter of fact, it's it's not well known, but a new book is coming out. in about two months called the worm. And it is actually beautifully documents the entire Ernest, transit programs over those two decades. It's going to be quite a book. We will. We will talk about I'm sure about that reissue of our manual but this is yet another book, which if the manual was just the guidelines and that so like like a crazy? this new book done by same people Jesse read and Hamish mice. is called the worm, and if visually documents everything in place all their aircraft and shovels, and is going to be a beautiful book, and I'm sure it will sell something great too, so there was a lot of success. It was so much so that it was quiet I guess the. The the event you're referring to is Dan Goldin in nineteen, ninety-two. Resenting their program, it was thunderbolt really because there had been no build up to it. and in just one day. He did. Resent the program and ninety two, and of course we were Myself and my staff or crushed say the least but you know it was a major event in our professional world to no one could quite believe that this was so popular around the world I constantly. Furnished, stories, and and background visuals to publishers and editors and. And like around the world, and so it was very much entrenched. And it was a blindside to say the least and Of course it changed everything and but I never lost interest in space creation can. Follow. The NASA exploit so. You know because it's to me. It's still the most the greatest adventure we've come up with, and not just adventure, but pursuit. and I still feel that way about it, but but that's something that was just major in not just for our firm, but for for the world of design considered quite a radical things. Decision on his part. Yeah! You talked about how how this thing was so popular I. I see it even today. This this logo is is everywhere. It's it's coexisting with other brands and it's. It's just part of a of a pop culture. Thing did even see that early on when you first rolled out. It wasn't as a media certainly in the in the agency as you suggested the old guard much preferred the meatball ball and the younger staffers were very very fond of this program those same individuals have grown up to be flight director now, so that's really the story and I think that's A. kind of thrilling, but the popularity outside, and there was even greater got tremendous exposure due to these I mentioned Walter Cronkite but really all all the networks. Were quite fond of and we work with them. You know they'd like. This came across very telegenic i. mean you know they put the logo up and they say that's it. Everybody knew what was going on so so this was a wonderful thing, and they got free publicity, and they became more and more well known, and then around the world is so popular in Asia and. In Europe maybe even more so than America now today. In America and you've probably seen this whether it's peril or anything else. The young people take to like ducks to water. You know it's It's just extraordinary and as you. It's really a pop pop culture, but when you realize that Motion. Picture liked the Martian. They could've done anything they want, but what they did was. Take our our logo on Mak- alphabet. You know so that you had an extension of it. As an there, we are on Mars. You know well. There's actually going to happen in the future. It's not exactly fantasy. But it, but it really is something that happened very naturally and I. I can't fully explain it myself i. We've always been interested in doing timeless work as the category of designed. and and I think this is a very good example of it. You know it's just It's seems to get better with age. Yet talk talk about the the worm logo itself. We described it a little bit in the beginning, but But what do you think you you talked about a timeless design? And you were very particular about the simplicity, and about the the way that appeared on things I wanna get a better sense of just what makes a logo that maybe at first glance looks so simple I'm sure you've put a lot of work into it, but just just the thoughts around the worm logo that make it so popular and so captivating to so many. I don't think that that's entirely predictable. You know but We did it wrong. The bell and I think that what you have is something that survives. It's it's forty six years old now as we speak. And you know it's a long time by by standards of contemporary communication or marketing or branding most companies and organizations have changed or modified or Or screwed up whatever you might WANNA see. But they've done it many times, so you have generations of this thing. the fact that the charge here I think to work across. Ten eleven agencies with such. Incredibly different focuses and and disciplines and all. try to pull it together. That's what drove us towards. The simplicity, and Bruce Blackburn. My partner at the time was was very instrumental in working on this part of the program and that that was what we were trying to do was to keep honing it down where it. Would be extremely versatile may not look like it at first visit to simple, but you use it in so many ways and and then it would hold up for a long time We didn't have a timeframe in mind four decades or five. You know, but. But I think it's the cursive nature of it and the fact that the way it flows it has technology base to the. One stroke letters seem to have been a machine infected. I should mention there's also. Everything. Of course is the the pre digital age. You know so the entire manual. Not just the logo was all done by hand and you know, but it looks like there was science ball and. And Engineering? And the fact that it's held up is just a testament. To this kind of timeless attitude, which is, don't overdo it. Don't try to be too brazen. Don't don't be flashy. You know, make it work, and of course in that era is I just referred to it? It was kind of a time when the agency was really bearing down on budgets. And It's SORTA spoke to that matter of fact. I've been asked. Did Nixon having to do well. He was under Nixon. This all happened the program. But he didn't. Putting pressure on the only pressure was coming at that time was that. They didn't know that. You shooting for the stars and. SUV just flying around out there was a good approach or good marketing ploy. They wanted it to be simple, so that didn't look like. We're just fooling around out there. You know like I mentioned. Jackie's just having a great time. so that the whole idea of grounding it. In in something reasonable was at work. but that doesn't explain why. The kids love it so much today I don't know I'd say. In my book, My new vote. I've got a kitty car. You know it's got it on this side. you see all the sweat shirts is. We're liberating especially in Europe. it's kind of magical in a way because it is so simple. but You Know I. We met. I think you're aware we have this committee. Working Committee at NASA trying to. Find out how to extend it. Beyond the DM to us from SPACEX. And that's what we're looking at the same time. We're considering new kinds of merchandise is because the demand as the head of this. NASA said just yesterday they there. She gets twenty calls a day. From people around the world. One apply it to something. Especially go apparel. It's Kinda of like. Go figure, but anyway makes us proud. You have to be something something so captivating and I want I. Don't want to kind of switch gears to that. Just just how this? This This logo that you that you came up with in the seventies is is is still very prominent today, and you describe it so well. I wanted to focus first on this style guide. because this was something that I. Guess fell off the shelves for a while, but there was a big effort to bring it back. People really wanted to get their hands on it. Yeah and So this young publishing firm decided that. There was to give it a shot. You know and so they produced reproduction. Only five years ago. I guess. Not Try to reproduce the manual exactly as was and And then decided that they wanted to add a lot of really juicy material to it, so the reduce pays for page the entire manual. And then there were essays in and I wrote a introduction to the book. And and then we had that style. I mean that managers guide in the back and. Some incidental things done film. Some of the TV things that I designed and. You. Know it it it and they put it on kickstarter, so taken a chance. And Sing through the roof I mean it garnered over nine thousand backers than a million dollars almost. And It was astounding because it broke records for a book, and this is a design manual. This isn't even a book. So It showed that there's this tremendous appetite out there. for something really ended up being a landmark document And and really had some Gravitas to it, so not only ask. Then they brought it out and was tremendously successful. We're in our. Fifth. Stiff printing now, and it just keeps going. So. It's an exciting story in and of itself now the same young guys are for two at order they They're bringing out the worm and I can tell you. It's going to be a knockout so I I. It's a book that. Shows all the applications over the two two decades follow. So that we expect to be a winner also so then you have backed back books. And, they're designed to be companions. Almost it's very exciting for us. Intro to that one, too. Now? Richard You, you alluded to this a little bit earlier you know taking the worm past demo to the the spacex mission where we launched Bob and Doug here just recently, but this. This is a big story. The worm is back. You know we have this We had this period of time. From where Dan Goldin came in the early nineties to just now, we haven't been using the the NASA worm logo on it until really twenty twenty, and is making a comeback told me the story there. The outside world has been keeping it alive. On NASA. Stand I think that the the first hand from SPACEX was they were wanted me to confirm Nassar read which which I did that and I said, wait a minute. Something's up here and then. They told me that there's some really good. Things were coming so I was pretty much on guard that that they were. GonNa try to resurrect our image and it was done with the agencies prove or Maybe that that was a year and a half in the making, though they wasn't a cavalier decision we instituted committee at NASA and I don't want to talk to openly about it, but it's absolutely wonderful committee, working committee, which is has been charged to figure out how to use it past that original demonstration, where where they not only put it on the Rock, but of course on their tesla cars and the walkway and two capsule, and it was used very very beautiful and very extensively, so they said a standard that I think would be great for any other subcontractor, Boeing, or otherwise and for the agency itself, so that's committee is looking at Other ways to use the worm to coexist with the meatball, because it's not being disposed of as you, you know it's still the lead simple and I think we've been really quite successful than exciting adventure. It's a great committee and you know we're loving it and We made a presentation yesterday. It will go up to administrator very shortly. without giving a specific of it it it. It's purpose of course is to see how to make this work to expand the. Is that worm so that the public can? Become reacquainted with it, but get on board I frankly I think the results in great that we've been working on, and there's a lot of applications to merchandise and everything. It's kind of thrilling. it. It's very strong. And Powerful, and so I have high hopes for that. We'll see what happens but that's been activity and I can tell you that that You know it's been exciting to be involved again. 'cause I really had about thirty years off their. Now I've been consulting with that again, so it's been a thrill. Well. It sounded like you know in the beginning. Just just that little hint of Hey, what? What color red is this Your involvement was pretty minimal sort of in the beginning even before the role, but it sounds like you're pretty involved now. Are you're back? You're back with the worm. Well we will we are and I don't want to over. Inflate it but I can tell you. There's nothing like this has been a singular experience in my six decade career I. Mean that it's. Is So special and It's really an emotional subject for me and the whole idea of alliance again with the colleagues and very talented ones. It's just a tremendous fit. And it's a great feeling to be back in the fold and to be working. You know with with with colleagues. Such important work that I feel it's man as an endeavor right, but at the top of the list so You know to have that back. Obviously to have the worm back on the forefront. It's just A. It's a source of great pride. And and I don't mean that from an ego standpoint, but it's Exhilarating and so we we'll take it as it comes and do some some very good work I think and power this thing forward and maybe a lot of people happy. I. I am I'm telling him. Of Pride Right now, and and all and I just feel proud for you. Just It's got to be just a tremendous feeling and I'm and I'm and I'm definitely feeling it from you and I'm sure you have a sense just coming back into the fold you know. Taking it back to to the seventies, the reason you were brought on is because the agency, or maybe the National Endowment for the arts, or maybe some other factor was was pushing to to rebrand and to bring to bring this agency to bring other agencies into the future. Are, you. Are you getting that same sense now? Maybe it's. It's being brought back because this truly is, the truth is the next era of human spaceflight. It is and I I think it's easy enough to comprehend the reason. The public because they decided is manned spaceflight. You know you you lose the public when you just have robots and and the like now we're back into manned spaceflight. Public is going to try this again. And I think one of the rationales from their ministration on was the worm symbolized man, flight and space flight, and You know so it works that way, and it will conjure that up again. We had big lag in between, but I th I think it will represent representative well. And you know you can expect me to be a little prejudiced, but I try to be objective about it, too, and I think that there's there's a lot of good can come from it and then I, I do know from their actions. I've had from younger personnel over the years. That that they'll be a lot of support and even even at Johnson Space Center. That's why I'm so looking forward to coming down there. You know it's a it's a full circle thing, but I think it works for the agency. Well report I'm sure there's a lot of people listening to this podcast. I think I think we. We definitely have a lot of fans of of of space, and maybe engineers. Maybe scientists, but I'm sure there's some graphic designers out there someone who wants to kind of follow in your footsteps, so any words that you you may WanNa have for them that maybe want to follow in your in your path and do great things like you're doing. Well I've always been encouraged it and I continued do that. If anybody's interested, they have to. Pay attention to the space program they have to you know. Read everything that comes out. Find Out! What what? He's doing say close to that and and understand the. The core material you know what the agencies trying to do, and then apply the one thing I would would ask any. Designers not to do and that was. Don't try to more these symbols we have now into one Other people have already tried that and it doesn't doesn't work. So if there's going to be another symbol way down the road I just don't do that. Don't don't mess up to Marks which have out quite a legacy and history. Than both. And maybe there's a third symbol out there someplace I do suggested if our if our particular logo is forty six years old. They don't have good for another four decades. Well said Richard. Richard Danny thank you so much for coming on Houston. We have a podcast. What a pleasure talking to you today we shall the best. It's been great Jerry I. Appreciate it very much. A. Off. Hey thanks for sticking around super interesting conversation. We had with Richer Dany today. The Guy who designed the NASA Worm Logo I. Really Hope you enjoyed it. You like this podcast. We have a lot of other episodes. You can listen to them in no particular order at NASA dot Gov Slash podcast. You can find us there as well as the many other podcasts across all of NASA, you can talk to us on the NASA Johnson, space center pages of facebook. Twitter and Instagram just use the Hashtag ask NASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show, and just make sure to mention is for us. At Houston, we have a podcast. This episode was recorded on June twenty fifth twenty. Twenty thanks to Experiment Greg Weisman Pat Ryan nor Moran. Belinda Pluto Jennifer Lopez Rocky Lind and Chelsea Bart thanks again to Richard Dany for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you're listening to us on and tell us how we did. We'll be back next week.

NASA engineer Oklahoma Bruce Blackburn partner US Richard Dany Gary Jordan NASA Johnson Space SPACEX Houston Dan Goldin Richard Walter Cronkite York Europe. National Endowment SPACEX director Richard You
Artemis Launch Director

Houston We Have a Podcast

49:05 min | 11 hrs ago

Artemis Launch Director

"Houston we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast to the nasa johnson space center episode one ninety four artemis launched director. I'm pat ryan on this podcast. We talk with scientists engineers astronauts and other folks about their part in america's space exploration program. Today we're going to take another step in learning the details about the upcoming first flight of the artem program. Nasa's artemis program is focused on returning american astronauts to the moon through the use of the space launch system rocket the orion spacecraft the gateway lunar outpost a new lunar lander and the ground systems that support them all artemis is about going to the moon in a sustainable way. That is to go to the moon to stay and learn how to support astronauts in that environment in the process. Getting ourselves. Ready to go on from there to mars back in january. Gary kicked off a series by talking to the artemis mission manager mike seraphin to get us started understanding. What all is involved. And this week we take another step. When artemis one launches on the first test flight of the s. l. s. with orion atop that launch team will work under the direction of charlie blackwell thompson the launch director for the exploration ground systems program at the kennedy space center a veteran of more than thirty years in the business at kfc and nasr's first female launch director blackwell thomson started her career with boeing as a payload flight software engineer and worked as lead electrical engineer for multiple hubble space telescope missions before joining nasa as a test director in the launch and landing division in two thousand four working prelaunch processing tanking and launch countdown operations. We'll talk about the cool jobs on her resume. And what it's been like getting a new program up on its feet to return. American astronauts to the moon and the things that we should all be looking for when we watched that first artemis launch. Artem one lunch director. Charlie blackwell thompson here. We go county career when we're starting with a topic like artists. Something that's pretty new. I think it's important to make sure we understand what we're talking about and make sure that we don't leave people behind assuming that they know things that maybe we know. So charlie blackwell thompson tell me what is artemis and in. What is the goal of this new program. Well arnovitz is a really exciting program that we have here at nasa and it's all about returning our country to the moon and this time in a sustainable way where we can learn to live off of our home planet in preparation for other deep space destinations. And so you know. We are getting ready for humanities next great leap which is sending our astronauts tamar. So it's a really exciting program For us here in the near term and also for generations to come. That's a great and sinked explanation of it because sometimes some people wanted pretty it all up but it's that simple. It's were going to the moon to get ready to go beyond the moon trite at is right. Why why is going to the to the moon important. What are we going to be able to learn there that That we don't already know that we need to know. Well it it really is about learning You know with each exploration initiative. There comes scientific discovery. You know technology advancement and along with it. Just inspiring a whole new generation toward exploration in stem and so if we look back at apollo we're still learning from the samples that we collected during that program. And so if you kind of fast forward and think about all that we're going to learn as we move forward and we visit new destinations on the lunar surface that the arguments program as i understand it is is structured into a couple of big subgroups Can you give me the thumbnail. Explanation of what what those different components are that. Make up the artem as program. Absolutely so you know. We talked about art. Imus's about returning humanity to the moon will do that. You need an incredible launch vehicle and so our sister program esa less has been developing the flight hardware the flight elements that make up that very powerful rocket and likewise our sister program or ryan has been developing the spacecraft that will take our crews into deep space deeper than we've ever gone before and so while ryan sos or developing those flight capabilities. My home program. E g s has been busy developing the systems to support this flight hardware during the pre launch and the recovery phase. So we've been developing ground systems enhancing infrastructure all in preparation for this flight hardware and the processing of it the integration of it together the testing of it and then ultimately the watch of this arduous vehicle for the benefit of people who aren't aware s lss space launch system e. g. s. that your program that is exploration ground system. Tell be what's included in grad. Sounds like everything that doesn't fly pretty much everything that doesn't fly If i were to talk about the changes that we've made here The space shuttle program as an example One that's really near and dear to my heart is right. Here in the launch control center When you think about the work that exploration when i talk about the work that exploration ground systems has done i'll kind of touch on the different elements so a lot of the the facility assets and and some of the equipment that we use is Is from the shuttle program but the capabilities and the needs of this rocket and spacecraft are really different so in the launch control center we have modernized. The foreign rooms both fine ram one two and three firearm one and two are used on day of launch barnum one is our prime and and our launch capable firing room. If you've ever visited farm room one back during the shuttle program you may remember that. It had some apollo era blue furniture there. That's all been removed and replaced with more modern designs and along with it. Also a new suite of software the shuttle era software that we had the launch control center was was designed back in the seventies timeframe seventies and eighties. And so we've replaced that with newer computing capability and a suite of software. That we That is really designed specifically for the the sos rocket the space launch system rocket in the orion spacecraft. So here in my home facility A lot of changes have been made. But it's not limited to the Launch control center if we were to step over to the v. a. b. as another example using right vehicle assembly building that was our final integration point for shuttle so back during the shuttle program if we worked on the over in the processing facility and then we would roll it over and it would get integrated with the external tank and the boosters and the vehicle assembly building and get checked out and then we would go out to the pad for launch The baby is also our final integration. Point for the ornaments vehicle. But that's where you have your access your primary access to the vehicle in the vertical. And so if you think about the outer mold line of the shuttle how different that is from the vehicle that we have which is an inline vehicle that stands over three hundred feet tall. A rocket as people traditionally think of rockets. It's one long tube while the this case it's got some attachments but it doesn't look at all like a space shuttle correct. And so if you if you were to imagine you had a set of platforms in in the v. a. b. that extended out to give you access to the shuttle For y we point out that You mentioned a couple of times the being in the launch facility. That's where you're actually right now while we're talking then that's that's that sound we're hearing it is So we're talking. You were talking about the The facilities inside the v. a. b. that were there specifically for space shuttle of which i guess are you're gonna say are things that you don't need now right and so the access to the vehicle is really different and so the platforms that are over in the vehicle assembly building. That were there in the show. Era have all been removed. But they've been replaced with with new access platforms because the needs and the requirements for very different on the outer mold. Line shape of vehicle. And so there's been quite a few changes over in the vehicle building In the platform set that's available in the services that you provide to the rocket itself and the spacecraft and to those interface points with which they are provided so Quite a few changes over there. One of the other fairly significant changes is. That is the mobile launcher itself. The mobile launcher serves as our launch platform We utilize it in the v. a. b. it also serves as an interface point to the vehicle for critical services and And it rolls you know we roll it to the pad and it remains with the vehicle for launch so Some fairly significant changes in the vehicle assembly building likewise out at the pad you may recall that during apollo and shuttle we had a lot of of service structure that was in place there and then that's been removed. We have a clean pad concept that allows for reduced Operations and maintenance costs over the long term launch civility sits on the beach and so It's it's exposed in so we have found over time that the clean pad concept produces those costs and and And so helps with those operations and maintenance areas and so we have a clean patch. It looks really different than launch complex. Thirty nine b look during the shuttle era. Be less hardware out there. That's exposed to the elements absolutely completely and the dozen. So it's there's less out there to be degraded to buy them or to have to undergo costly repair correct correct and so there's been a lot of a lot of changes in the certainly last that but not least is our crawler transporter. It's been in service for very long time. We use it during apollo used during shuttle and we intend to use it during artists but it has gone through some upgrades to prepare it for the increased weight of this vehicle and we have certainly utilized several times as we have. Roll the mobile launcher out to the pad for various verification and validation testing that we've done over the last year or two so All of all of our gs see some of it is brand new because it supports the unique Requirement for the vehicle but some of the the infrastructure and maybe big pieces of hardware. They that folks will be familiar with back from the shuttle program. There's still in service. They've just been given a bit of an overhaul in is. Is that ground support ground. Yes i gotcha cool entirely. You are the the launch director in exploration ground systems. You're going to be the launch director for the first flight for artem one Tell me what the job means. What does it entail. Well the first thing it means to me is that. I'm really lucky really to have this amazing opportunity and to work with such an incredible group of people You know. I don't come along that often and to be at the beginning of a program that is going to take the first woman in the next man back to the moon is pretty special. Pretty special to me The responsibilities of the launch director is to make sure in the planning phase that we have the products the services the capabilities and our team is ready for launch. And those are pretty pretty broad descriptions. But when i talk about things like products it's it's the launch countdown procedure. It's developing the you know the steps the very specific steps that we will go through within our launch countdown for configuring the ground equipment configuring the flight vehicle check out the instruction manual the instruction manual And so we have to go put that together we have to establish the timelines. I mean we are working toward a launch window that that opens and we wanna be ready when that launch window opens and so we also want to make sure that our tom lawns put together and that we measure ourselves against those timelines as we go through launch because we have some areas where we can catch up but we also have some some areas for what we call critical path. Which is you know we really need to to do these things in a very specific order in a very specific timeline and so putting that that time line together it's awesome the development of our launch commit criteria which is the lowest with which we are go or no go on launch day and So those are the things. I talk about products. Those are some of the specific things. And i'm talking about When i when i speak about capabilities it's ensuring that our capabilities are in line with our day of launch needs and capabilities. Again is another really broad category. But it's things like you know then the nets that we talk on. We have to be able to talk to our team across a a number of different channels. Have to be able to talk to the flight control team. That's back at. Johnson has to be able to talk to the engineering design centers. And so it's it's ensuring that we have all of that capability in place for launch day. It's sometimes as simple. And that's a pretty complex capability. It's it's some simple capabilities to which are you know what the platforms so. We're running our electronic procedures on and do they allow us to to bury You know easily work our way through the steps and and buy them off and for our team to have visibility to that so it capabilities is a is a pretty big pretty big bucket that there's a lot of different things in that but it's ensuring that all that we need on launch day is in place and it's working for us it sounds like it's not just strictly in any communications capabilities but any sorts of systems that support the work that all of these people who are working the launch need in order to succeed to complete that job absolutely And then there's the team piece of course. Which is you know. is our team ready. So you know. Do we have our products in place so we have our software done. Do we have our procedures ready. But it's also is our team ready and so we have a suite of a training that we do with our team to ensure we do simulations very similar to what the flight control team does our very focused on the prelaunch phase. But we will go through our nation's a number of times with our lunch team to ensure that we're ready for a nominal launch countdown and we're also ready for any problems that may arise on On watch day and that we have the right what we call preplanned contingencies in place. But it's really a. What's our plan if this happened. How what what are we going to do if something goes wrong. Yes and can we get ourselves to go or nogo state. Are we done for the day when that when the problem arises or do we have. Do we have some things. We can go do some redundancy. We can employ some Some additional capability that allows us to go fly the vehicle. It sounds like you're talking about education. You're teaching everybody. Who's a member of that team to know everything about their particular area of expertise and then however one would work together to respond to something. That was unexpected. You know we're teaching each other We're we're all learning together as part of those those simulations in those training exerciser being the launch director responsible for the development of all of that sounds like a heck of a big responsibility. Tell me about how you got yourself ready to to take that up. Tell me about about your background. What was your professional path. That got you here absolutely Happy to share that. I came to kennedy space center as a senior in college. I was lucky enough to get an interview with With one of the contractors here at kfc that was responsible for the processing of payloads like hardware. And when i was in school. I haven't an engineering computer engineering major. In one of the one of the areas that i was interested in an in school was software. I didn't want wanna write toad. I knew that that was not my thing. But i was interested in testing it and in doing verification and validation and so i was lucky enough that in one of my interviews I had mentioned that. I wanted to do the suffer. Testing and and one of the contractors was looking for someone that was interested in doing sulfur testing. And so i got a call back. And they brought me here to kennedy space center and Absolute you know thrill to be here to be able to see the spatial orbiter. But when i walked in and it and it's not lost on me that it was fine room one which by the way where we're going gonna launch from but when i walked in farner one. The team was preparing space shuttle discovery for return to flight after challenger. And i i was just struck by the work that they were doing it to be part of that team. I wanted to earn myself. A seat in the room and and i was lucky enough over time to to do that and so i started. I was working in software. And and i did that for a couple years. I i moved up to to work on not just payload flight software but to on avionic systems on on payloads that that were flying in the space shuttle. I got to work on them off. Line in their avionics integration tests. And i got the come when they were installed in the space shuttle. I got the to come. And check out the communications and avionics interface between the payload systems and the and the orbiter systems to put your hands on the space shuttle. I did and also got to put my hands on the on the the payload flight hardware so i got an opportunity over the course of my career. I can't really believe how incredibly blessed i've been I got to work on hubble space telescope. i got to work. On the the servicing missions that followed the international space station assembly elements and awesome observatories game. Ray observatory some planetary missions. So just really had an you know. Each of them were different so it was always something to go learn and after i did that. For about fifteen years. I had an opportunity to move over to nasa in the civil servant workforce and become a test director and i took that opportunity and And that was a a huge change from from working in payloads and working in command and data handling electrical systems and moving over to the test richter office but it was a great opportunity for me to learn to to kind of look more broadly across shuttle processing and And so i did that. Until the shuttle program ended i became a certified launch certified nasa test director so i had an opportunity to launch from that position A number of times and and stayed either in the in td role or the chief into the role. Which is nasa test director or the assistant launched director role until the end of the program so had a lot of time in the in the firing room after shuttle ended i. I'd lead a division within the ground processing directorate and that was a lot of really good. Work gave me a lot of New skills but i was always call back to that firing room and always call back to the flight hardware and so Fears ago back in two thousand sixteen. I i got an opportunity to start helping our guests in twenty fifteen start helping with the launch planning for The artists vehicle and And so here. I am that. Do you have any good sense yet and granted you haven't actually launched an artemis mission but as you're getting ready for it do you have a sense of what being the artists launched director is significantly different than being the launch director for other kinds of of rockets or missions that launch at the space center I i would say that. The wall is is because i had a firsthand view. Although i did i wasn't a lot director in shadow. I assistant launched director but had a firsthand view of what the shuttle director did. And i would say it's it's similar not quite the same but if if i were to pick most similarity i would say very similar to the role of the shuttle launch director k. A few minutes ago you were started going through some of the The the process of what the artem is launch director preparing for the first mission of the kinds of things that you've had to do you're talking or were there other changes on ground systems. That that we hadn't gotten to yet there are other other things than besides the the and the The crawler transporter big changes. That you've made I would say those are the probably the biggest is that we have a mobile launcher that on provides a critical services. I didn't talk a whole lot about that. That was Repurpose from the constellation program. The biggest most visible changes are in the v. a. b. out at the pad and i would say in the logic control center but certainly across the center They're their changes within each of those major facilities that are very unique to support to this vehicle. I mean new when i talk about ground support equipment There is a suite of ground support equipment that has been either upgraded changed enhanced to support the needs of of this vehicle. When i talk about that it's everything from you. Know the purges on the vehicle to You know the the software in which we control certain functions It just across the board really significant changes because the needs of the vehicle are are quite different than what we had back. Shuttle and even in the cases where it may be similar in some of the equipment from shuttle had been around for a really long time and was really in need of upgrade either for obsolescence reasons. or or. Just you know maintainability reasons. You developing system. That is specific to the needs of the the rocket that you're launching the rocket in the spacecraft. That that you're launching bundle wade. As is the one launch director much involved in the development of the rocket and the spacecraft itself. I would say that our our sister programs less anna ryan are responsible for the development of the rocket in the spacecraft where the launch director comes in and is when we begin to talk about the launch operations and kinda keeping the end in mind. It's it's in that requirements development piece. I would say it's in formulating some of the capabilities. That that we need So we are involved. It's it's not our direct responsibility but certainly when we think about launching the vehicle we you know we have to think about what do we need. And what is the timeline in which we need to do this And so we are involved in those those design discussions and and decisions You know from a making an input for maybe it's for operability. Hey for launch. You know if we could do it this way This would be a great help to us. Because we are constrained you know by the time line or maybe by other work so it's really important to be a part of those discussions in the development phase because elsewise you get it and then you kinda gotta make do with with with what you have in terms of. This is what the work takes. So it's really a partnership between the operations team and the development team. The development team responsible developing the flight hardware. But the the operations team is you know is invested in providing the input of this makes it much easier for us on the ground in the prelaunch phase or in the launch phase. If we do you know solution. A versus solution. Be you to want them to develop a system that is hard to operate the first flight of artem the first artemis flight or the next flight is not gonna have any astronauts on board so are there significant developments in our differences in developing procedures for a flight with no astronauts as opposed to the subsequent flights which all will have people onboard. That's a great question There are differences. The the great thing is you know. We expect to get a really solid baseline from artists. One on what it takes to configure the ground what it takes to configure the esa less rocket the upper stage and orion to some degree From artists one and once we write those procedures. I'm a big fan of we right at once. We use it many times because once you write it and you use it and it arrayed on it. It's kind of working from a proven product. And so me. That's the great thing about utilizing our launch countdown procedures between artists one and artists too but they are absolutely differences. The most notable of course is when we close out the crew module so for when we have crew just like you see for some of the other vehicles And we saw shuttle is that after In the later part of our countdown for us and artem after we get finished with are tanking face the crew will go to the pad on. we'll have crew ingress. And then we will go through macho close out where we do contracts with the crew we finish out our work in the crew module and we began backing out closing the hatch and then leaving the pad in preparation for launch on artemis. One we don't have that work to do and so we're all about you know buying down schedule risk and technical risk as we go so we can close that crew module out before we ever tank vehicle and so we'll do that on artem one so that would be the biggest change between one and two is that you won't see that activity post tanking for artem. It's one we'll have the crew module buttoned up We will have closed out the the white room. We'll have closed the hatch before we ever leave the for tanking on arguments one. So that'll be a big difference For artemis to and it will certainly add some time into our timeline as well erbil or there's less things to do so the timeline will be a bit shorter for artemis one. That is correct. Let's talk more about artemis one Tell me i ve. Ai referred to the fact that they'll be no people on board. But you tell me what are the objectives of this first flight in the arnold program. He'll be objective of a arguments. One is we're building capability. We're building a capability to send people back to the moon and so armless one is about testing out some of those capabilities that we need before we in crew into space and one of the primary capabilities that we're testing out is the integrated vehicle and the performance and the capabilities of it. Because it'll be the first time that we have launched the sos rocket with the upper stage with the orion spacecraft into and be testing out that capability the other piece is is the The orion heat shield and how it performs as we go through reentry and so. I know that my flight director friends will probably talk to you. More about that When when you talk to them. But those are two of the big objectives as part of artemis one and then there's some other objectives related to to some payload activities and then of course the recovery of the orion spacecraft of the mission. So it's in in the simplistic terms for artemis one. It's about testing out critical capability that We will then. Once we know that that critical capability is in place and sound will be ready to put crew on artists to and then certainly Sending the the crew into deep space and checking out the the capability there of the spacecraft. And how it all performs with the crew interface and the additional systems air and then getting ready for artemis three and boots on the moon. So it's a it's an incremental approach for how we build this capability toward returning to the moon is the launch director particularly interested. In what happens after you get it off the ground responsibility more. It is At liftoff at booster ignition and lift off the launch director hands off to the essence like director and so from a are you directly involved The answer's no i'm not. Am i interested absolutely because we're all stakeholders in this and And you know we're it really is in some ways like your hand the baton to your partner you know you wanna hand in the best vehicle the most capable vehicle that you can and and likewise my flight director friends wanna hand that you know that vehicle back to the landing recovery director at the end and so we are all partners in this together and and you know certainly like the nation will be. I will be watching with intriguing wonder. Oh yeah As we go through the different phases of the mission. Help us all the rest of us who don't know yet help us understand what happens leading up to that launch Pick some point at you know a launch minus however far you want it to be an and give me the the story of of what's going to happen there around the kennedy space center and what sorts of of of events and milestones are going to happen as your team gets this vehicle. Ready to fly well So let's see. I could start at at any. At any point. I would say terms of i'm gonna say let's talk about maybe in the i'll talk about some visible pieces in a moment but if i were to say step back you know a a year maybe a year ish What are the things that we're doing here to get ready for launch. While some of it. I talked about already. But it's the it's in development. It's receiving the requirements from our flight element Sister programs that say here is the services here. The needs of this vehicle and so it is developing the the procedures. It's developing the software. It's developing everything that we need to put these flight elements together and to test them out to ensure that they're ready to go fly and that's that's not a small undertaking fairly significant Development effort in terms of the procedures in the software. And of course you have to you. Even if i would have back up before that before you get the flight hardware you know over the last many years we have been developing these capabilities here at kennedy space center for To support the ical and and it sometimes it's things you may not think about. I'll give an example We have out of the pad at launch And you've probably seen this in the past. But at t zero are in and around t zero during the absent Face very very close to being off the pad right. There's a there's a. There's an acoustic environment that is created by the the the booster emission. And and there's a big sound wave that kinda bounces off of the deck. If you will of the mobile launcher and one of the very simple ways that we mitigate that to to create any adverse effects of the vehicle is that we flood the deck with her. Sounds pretty simple. But there's actually a pretty specific timing sequence to that in when you wanna have that deck flooded with water if you flood it too soon. The water will have you know with. We'll have run off the sides and down through the trench and you won't really have the covering that you need. And so while that sounds simple and easy pay requires It requires testing and and so we had spent some amount of time kind of tuning. If you will the the start of the water And and kind of the timing of it because we want to have it just right and all that sounds pretty simple it. It turns out to be a number of different test to get it exactly where you wanted Relative to t zero. So there are many many many development efforts like that that have been ongoing for many years We're glad to be working our way through those and get them behind us. 'cause we're excited about this white hardware come into kennedy space center. I could imagine. I can imagine that it's it's of the you know the the more i learn the more i realize i don't know and you got to work through those steps. In order to figure out when is the right time to turn on the water and how much and from what directions and just as an example of the kinds of procedures that you've got to develop even if just by trial and error correct correct and so there's all that work that happens. I would say you know years before and probably not nearly as visible the same thing is true with the with the sauk warrior in the launch control center mean developing a new suite of software for brand new vehicle. While you're building the flight hardware at the same time you know comes with comes with some challenges and so You know we've been. We've been developing that software. Were just about to the finish line on it. And so you know. But that's one of those things that kinda happens that is maybe not as visible but but starts many years many years before but kind of bring bringing it back to what are the visible the visible pieces. That'll be maybe hear more in the near term is Couple of things I of course stages due to arrive here very soon. They have finished up green run testing. It was hugely successful Our team was in firing room. One following along during that testing activities call. It was It was amazing to see that stage run. The full duration see those engines lied and gimbal and And just run through that full duration run with something incredibly special and for me when the test was over and they were in a post cutoff. Say thing i couldn't help but think you know the next time those engines. Why launch day. So or test firings of them until then what's at those. There's no more no more testing of them until then there there. There is testing of the engines. But there's no more firing them okay. Good i didn't realize that that's that's interesting thing about as i watch the rector. I often have. I looked at things with the with a lens toward launch. So it's not uncommon for you know for me when i think about different milestones. I had the same thought during during hot fire Entering the wet dress activities. When i was thinking about you know the next time we take this vehicle. It's waitress day and and the time we take it after that is launched a and so we're you know we're really one tanking away from watch day and if i can when you refer to wet dress that's another step in the preparation of test run of a sort it is and and that's one of those when we talk about big milestones talked about core stage getting here. Which is the last piece of hardware for the artem est vehicle. It'll be the final piece so everything else is here at kennedy thinner. Yup and everything is in process Either intesting are in preparation face so When the when the core stage gets here very soon that'll be That's a a big deal for us and And then after he gets your maybe not quite as visible milestones will be the the integration of the hardware and the testing that follows in the va. Be i mean all very important test right. We begin to put the. The boosters are stacked up in the v. a. b. right now and just waiting and so the core stage will come. We'll get integrated with the boosters The upper stage will get integrated up on top. And then our orion up on top of that and there's a series of tests that we do prior to wh- prior to roll out for wet dress rehearsal but wet dress rehearsal. And the rollout for it. I think will be a really big and very visible mouse down for for us as enterprise because it means that the vehicle has been fully integrated the vehicle has been fully tested in the vehicle assembly building and we are ready to roll to the pad for wet dress rehearsal and what what dress rehearsal is is a wet dress rehearsal for launch a wet wet as opposed to dry. And i'm taking the that has to do with fuel. It does okay. The we will go through the loading profile for both core stage upper stage so we'll tank the vehicle we will go through the launch countdown operations. down to terminal count and then We will have a plan to cut off so we'll go Down to about Ten seconds in the countdown and then we'll call it a day but it will be an opportunity to go in a wet environment to do a dress rehearsal for launch. Okay as you As we get to. I'm i'm thinking ahead to the to the actual flight. I guess the excitement you want to think about that but you you said a moment ago that has launched director you. You actually hand off responsibility for the vehicle fairly soon. After it gets off the ground are are there any other responsibilities that your team has then all the way to the completion of the mission or is that all the responsibility of the flight control teams. It is the risk the flight phases the responsibility of the flight. Control team. now we are there to support them Because sometimes there are questions about you know. Did you see this on the ground. Or what did you guys up there. During testing and so we are part of the mission management team meetings that happened on a daily basis and so we are absolutely there to to support our flight control. teammates but In terms of the responsibility for the vehicle it resides with them that does exploration ground systems. Then come back into play on any given mission once vehicle returns when orion wisely dodson. It's actually there's a handle at the at the end of the mission so the flight control team is responsible For the landing operations but the recovery director who is exploration ground systems and that's in the listed jones She is responsible for the recovery of the spacecraft and the preparation of it to return here to kennedy After the mission is done in so melissa will have a team of of folks that will be ready to make those recovery operations and And i think she's drowsy planning to talk to her a little bit about that. But absolutely so we're kind of on the front end of the mission getting ready for launch and then on the back end of the mission as we covered the space craft and and bring it back here to kennedy for Processing and making ready for Any feature me so as we look ahead through this year toward You know as we get closer to win. Artem one is going to happen. What kind of milestones would you may be advised people to to keep an eye out for what what what big things are going to happen between now and then that are sending the message that we're we're getting closer is still happening and we're actually making progress here. Well i think the milestone of course stage arriving here at kennedy is a significant milestone for us Because it means not just to us but to everyone that is watching that all of the flight hardware has arrived here. It is here at the launch site and now it is in the final preparations for launch Likewise i think once the testing is done i think that rollout for launch very visible milestone. It's going to be an amazing sight when that vehicle rolls out of the vehicle. Assembly building. High bay number three. Make sure that it doesn't bump its head on the way out to head is a. It's a really tall vehicle. And i have watched the number rollout to the launch director. You're responsible for Directing the team and leading the team during those role operations and and i've seen number of vehicles roll past the the windows of the el-sisi on their ways the pad and i can't wait to see this one for the first time because it is going to be something incredibly special I i. I've been around a long time and It's something. I'm really looking forward to. Because i think it's going to be something that i haven't seen before in many haven't seen before in terms of just how stately this vehicle is going to look when it comes through those doors. It's also got a terrific of symbolic importance because of where it's going and what it's going to do at night charlie blackwell thompson. Thank you so much for helping us understand better. What's going on at the kennedy center. And what we what we'll see when it comes time for Artem to fly you're welcome. It's been my pleasure to be here today I hope you've got a sense that this is an incredible vehicle it's it's got an incredible mission. Were excited here at kennedy and You know. I feel extremely blessed to be a part of this. So thank you for letting me be a part of your afternoon in career. United kingdom things are coming together. More and more as a calendar moves closer and closer to the next launch for project artemis not happening as fast as some people would like of course but you can hear from the launch director at the folks on the ground are seeing progress in getting through the series of tests and in processing assembly. The podcast will be working on future episodes. That'll let us bring you more details about these future missions. You can always learn more. By going online. To nasa dot gov slash artemis or nasa dot gov slash moon to mars to keep up with developments and dig deep into the background. I can remind you too that you can go online to keep up with all things. Nasa at nasa dot gov be a good idea for you to follow us on facebook twitter and instagram. To when you go to those sites use the hashtag. Ask nasa to submit a question or suggest a topic for us. Just make sure to indicate that it's four. Houston we have a podcast. You can find the full catalog of all of our episodes. By going to nasa dot gov slash podcasts and scrolling to our name you can also find all the other good nasa podcast right there at the same spot. Nasa dot gov slash podcast. This episode was recorded on april fifteenth. Twenty twenty one. Thanks to alex. Pyramid gary jordan nor moran belinda pulido and jennifer hernandez for their help with the production to catherine hamilton. And tony romeo. For making the arrangements and charlie blackwell thompson for helping advance our education on the upcoming flight of project artists. We'll be back next week.

charlie blackwell thompson nasa kennedy space center nasa johnson space center mike seraphin exploration ground systems pro blackwell thomson Charlie blackwell thompson Launch control center kfc artem pat ryan Artem ryan nasr international space station as Ray observatory artemis Imus
Space City

Houston We Have a Podcast

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Space City

"Houston. We have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA. Johnson Space Center episode eighty-five space city. I'm Pat Ryan on this podcast. We talk with scientists engineers, astronauts, lots of other folks about their part in America's space exploration program today, we're focusing on how the presence of one NASA field center here in Houston impacts the community in which it resides and vice versa. When president Kennedy said his moon landing goal back in nineteen sixty one NASA decided that the group that was leading human spaceflight efforts needed its own location. The requirements were that it'd be at least a thousand acres in a moderate climate with established electric and water utilities close to commercial jet service and two water transport that could accommodate large barges that it have an established industrial complex with available labor because two institutes of higher education and have a cult. Literally attractive community the site that ultimately was selected was twenty five miles southeast of downtown Houston, which in the nineteen sixty cents has had a population of nine hundred thirty eight thousand people just a little behind Baltimore. And about sixty thousand ahead of Cleveland. The site actually wasn't even inside the Houston city limits a map from nineteen sixty one shows that the only things interesting enough in the immediate area to be marked were county park and the Houston girl scout camp, which was located pretty much where I'm sitting today. It was a thousand acres of land that had been donated by the unbel- oil company to Rice University, which the school was leasing out to graze cattle, and which it was willing to make available to the government to bring what was then known as the manned spacecraft center to Houston. The people started working in leased office and laboratory space all over town while the buildings were built. The new center officially opened in September nineteen sixty three eighteen months before the first man flight of the Gemini program things around here have changed a lot since then joining me to talk about the relationship between NASA and the local community in Houston are Cindy dewey's the president and CEO of the clear lake area chamber of commerce, William Harris, president and CEO of space center, Houston and Bob Mitchell, president of the bay area Houston economic partnership. So here we go. County. Mark. We have on. Let me start by asking each one of you to give me an elevator pitch about what your argon is Asian is and the role in this community outreach medically. Let's start with Cindy dewey's. Okay. Well, I am the presidency of the clear lake area chamber of commerce, and we started in one thousand nine hundred sixty two with the Seabrook business community and the Kemah business community wanting to start a business organization membership organization because the government was coming manned space Flight Center was being built and they felt like they needed to get their act together. And so the chamber of commerce started in those communities two years later league city joined the business community of league city joined that effort, and they became the clear lake chamber of commerce based on the name of the lake and then as the community grew and more cities formed that went around the lake and we now represent nine different cities in portions of two counties, and we have about nine hundred members. And as I said, we're business. Organization are focuses on on economic development, and advocacy and with that though networking str- has formed because people want to do business with people they know like interest and so joining the chamber of commerce and having a common goal with other members helps you to get to know, folks and build your business network. So in a nutshell, that's what the is all about terrific. William Harris, basically Houston is what well space center. Houston is dynamic learning destination. We are a science center the focus on space exploration, specifically interpreting human space exploration and also the official visitor's center for NASA Johnson Space Center, so we came about about twenty six or so years ago as the outcome of the various NASA research centres talking about how to better manage visitors because it used to be you could just walk onto the facility at NASA Johnson Space Center, go into any kind of laboratory or area, but we now live in a post nine eleven world where you have to manage visitors who come into your facilities, particularly secure federal. Facility. And so we have grown to be the top destination in Houston for out of town. Visitors welcoming over one point one million visitors a year, and we're continuing to grow we recently gone through extensive strategic planning process to really look at how do we manage that growth because we're kind of busting at the seams of the number of people coming through an imperative think it's a reflection of the public's renewed interest in space exploration excitement about what's going on. We also offer very robust education programming. It's a major area of growth in service to the community. We now welcome over two hundred and fifty thousand youth educators on field trips every year, and that that number is continuing to expand we offer classes for people of all ages. One of our best known one is called space center university, which is a one week deep engineering immersion for visitors ages eleven through college. And so based on your academic level. You have an incredible. In the course of the week to understand what goes into working in the space program. I did not know that space center. Houston was the top visitor destination of the whole area. Yes. Yeah. We receive more out of town visitors than any other destination and the Houston region historical note before there was space in Houston, the visitor's center was right here in this room where we are sitting today in this seems to be where space capsules were on display where I came when I was nine interesting Bob Mitchell the bay area Houston economic partnership. Thank you the beer Houston. Economic partnership is a five oh, one C six nonprofit organization. We just started our forty third year. We're completely member driven organization that we have about two hundred seventy members thirteen cities fund us to counties Hairston Galveston county Puerta Houston, Houston airport system. We have forty three aerospace companies that that remembers the organization of at twenty two financial institutions about sixteen healthcare. Situtions, but six specially chemical companies we have some brokers some developers is that tell everybody, you gotta have view lawyers. Very little retail. We have some retail like minute press. And and my flooring America who've been members since the beginning of the organization, what we do is we recruit companies to the region, maybe from North, Texas, Texas, or may be from Alaska, maybe anywhere, we recruit companies here, we do a lot of retention work. Retentions defined a about a lot of the work that I do for the Johnson Space Center is is I tell people I can say thing and ask for things that they can't ask for themselves. So do a lot of retention work. And then off the other thing is expansion projects. We recently have worked expansion projects. Konica was the five hundred million dollar expansion project lend episode was at one point two billion dollar expansion projects. What does that mean? These companies are global they can do work anywhere in the world. They can expand their operations anywhere there. Global global companies to do it here. Absolutely. So what we do is. We give them a reason what we do. We put financial packages together based on incentives, maybe from the city from the county from the state workforce training dollars. Pull all that together. Abatements and say here, this is we'll give you this. If you if you do that five hundred million dollar expansion project here. Tell me narrow it down for me. Just a little and tell me how you do that work that is directly with NASA and the Johnson Space Center on on a regular basis. Well, what's a month with the Senator director in have been meeting with the Senate director since be Cal? And we go over issues that that they have in. I try to find a way to to help him out. Basically what it is. And of course, I worked very closely with Debbie Connor notorial Sanchez, a number of people within the nessa. Yeah. And those are those people who lead the external relations officer ac- today. Can you give me an example or two of what sort of things does the NASA Johnson Space Center? Look to you to assist them with to help the federal government to make sure that they're fully funded in their budgets. I work on the budgets, quite often. In again, you know, as a NASA contractor or a NASA employee. You can't ask for money. But that doesn't mean I can't ask for my. So I'm I'm that mechanism. That helps them you know, to get to receive the funding that they need in in the right programs. Cindy, and in your case, how does the chamber of commerce working with Nassan and JSE also have Debbie Kander on our board. And where she reports to our board once a month. So she brings us news from NASA what's going on at J A C, specifically JC. And so we keep abreast of what's going on in that area. But we also I go to annually on a trip that bay actually started and organized as citizens for space exploration. And that is a trip to Washington DC where we take about one hundred folks and or bay up organizers I've. And I'm fortunate to be involved in that nasty participate in that. And that is just going around and talking to our congressmen and our senators about the importance of space expirations, specifically human space exploration. And how that it? It drives his an economic driver for these communities and for the entire US. And so it's important with to our economy, but it's important to the citizens of our country was. And. That one particular trip we started twenty four years ago, and we started because the international space station passed by one vote. It's right at that time, we took six travelers from Houston and visited seven offices in Washington DC last year, we took one hundred again at started in Houston last year alone. We took one hundred and four travelers visited four hundred and four offices. These are actual scheduled set down meetings. They're not walk in and hit him a piece of paper, we schedule these meetings prior to getting their four hundred and four we visited eighty one percent of the house. Seventy nine percent of the Senate to talk about the importance of NASA in the innovation technology that the American people get from it. And we don't talk specifically about JSE. We talk about NASA in the importance of NASA to America. It does is it is human spaceflight a hard sell on Capitol Hill. Absolutely. Not I will I will say twelve years ago. It was a bit of a hard sale. We were able to meet with about seventy or eighty. But as as we grow on this program we've met with. Foreign four last year is truly truly one of the very few issues in Washington that is bipartisan we received support from the democratic side just as well as we receive it from the Republican says there's there's no division. It's they're very supportive. The folks come in there, and we're from the community, it's business. It's the business community some industry, but mostly it is people that live and work and have jobs businesses because of community like like ours because necessary here, and so it's important for them to go and express to congress. My business depends on that facility, or my I have a business because I'm doing business with an ASA. And so they listen to that that message, and they see how important it is to the economy. But they also see how important it is to just human beings race. Well, the complex that is really the work. We do at space center Houston because as the general public, and you're elected officials are gonna respond to what their constituents as important to them. And really space is the great frontier. And I think it appeals to people of all ages and nations, and so we're able to inform them around what's going on. Currently our main charges interpreting what's happening. Space exploration specifically through now. John Johnson Space Center. And so I think it's a great compliment. So are we often hold briefings? We allow Alexis officials to come in and he'll community meetings about to hear from their constituents on all topics. But it gives them a chance to actually see our exhibits, and I have an opportunity to impart messaging around what's happening in space exploration and whites value and important to to our community. It seems pretty clear what space center Houston's day to day interaction is with JSE's. You said that's the official visitor's center. That's correct on the upside for us because every visitor centre has slightly different structure. We're also five a one c three nonprofit. So we're independent. And so we have a Tommy but to facilitate good communication with Jesse six board members are executive from Johnson Space Center. So they keep us informed around where the latest programs initiatives priorities. So we're imparting correct information or the latest information to the public. But when stations occur like the recent government shutdown the furlough it we can still function. We're we're not in some of our sister visitors centers that were run through the federal agency actually closed or did not have access to facilities as we did. Cindy's commented moment ago about how when you you're you're you carrying the message of business people and citizens to congress saying that this thing that you've got going on in Arctic community is important. And that was a major thing at the time that NASA came to this area more than, you know, fifty five fifty seven years ago, or now for contrast any one of you give me a sense of what this part of the world was like in nineteen sixty one when the federal government decided that they were going to establish a NASA center here where they're at the time was nothing. Listen to kick that off you've been here. You've been here longer than me a little bit longer. I I know a little bit more about it. It was mostly a fishing and farming and ranching community. You know, there was there was lots of pasture land. There was of course, access to the bay and access to the Gulf. And so it was a great for that. And so there wasn't a lot of industry here. There was in fact, we were in Austin last week and went into an office, and they had a map of Harris County from the late eighteen hundreds and it was fascinating to see our area because it had names instead of towns that this was Sarah deals ranch. And this was another Rancho is fascinating to see what it was. It was a lot of nothing as a beautiful. But, but there was no there wasn't a clear Lake City. There wasn't you know, a league city, which is still growing and by leaps and bounds. And so that's kind of a fun part of our history. And folks love to hear that they love to hear what what was it like in the sixties here. And it was all. All new and everybody was new and so you've formed a family Texas family because people came from all over and you didn't there there weren't any clicks because nobody came from anywhere. Yeah. They all come together. That's right. That's right. So let's just go back to that to that period of time it at that time there was about nine hundred sixty or seventy thousand people in the entire Houston area. Today. There's five point five million. Now, if you just look at our area the area that we're responsible for they have is responsible for it actually goes from the beltway Easter payroll in east west to the ship channel all the way to Galveston bay that area that's bay area in that area loan today. There's eight hundred thousand people that's how many we represented the bare almost as much as the in the city of Houston proper in nineteen sixty absolutely. So things have changed. And I will say that if you get right down to it is I is I tell people JSE's, heart and soul of this region. Jaycees what started this region that is where that's why we have eight hundred thousand people in this region. Now, of course other industries grown, but without JSE. You would not have had that that was going to be my my question. Whether it was. Fair to say that the putting the Johnson Space Center. Here was the main driver of this development. The only driver, right? The driver. I've always felt that was true. I've lived in the area since the middle sixties. I always felt that that was true. But I haven't done the research or to to know it for a fact, but you know, the thought that I should I, you know, maybe there's something else that was a little responsible. And I shouldn't just assume. But this is what this is what made it what it is. I would take it. It's a Louis step further and say that if you look at the number of engineers and the Houston region, no other place, the state of Texas has that many engineers it all started right at the Justice space center. If you look at every industry that we have it's high tech. You look at the old energy healthcare. Nasa specially chemical all high tech jobs all recording engineers to exceed. So I can say that it would start right here. The oil industry use. Also centred here and a lot of the development not maybe right here. But nearby is is connected to that. Right. Sure. I mean, one of the biggest exit on feels that they the biggest Exxon field that they had for many many years right here in France. Would let's go get. That's why they call it. The prince with development. I did do a little research and said the friends would field is centered roughly at the Gulf freeway in Dixie farm road, which at the time was not in the city of Houston. Either does JSE wasn't in the city of Houston, but the oil company Exxon Mobil, made a large percentage of its money back in those days from right up the road here. Well, let me tell you a little little history at at the time when we built the Johnson Space Center. The Johnson Space Center was in the city of Pasadena. Okay. Okay. So there was negotiations that were held behind the scenes between the mayor Pasadena and the mayor of Houston because NASA when they landed on the moon they wanted to say Houston. And the deal was made they made Lance wop. Houston took took over the Johnson Space Center in Pasadena took all took over armone by you that was the land swap, which has how nature preserve right? Just on the other side of the road. That's how NASA ended up in Houston or Jhansi. They didn't want to say pets. Nothing. Not. Do do negotiations. It was more dentistry -able Houston. You. I'm sorry. You were going to say now. No, you weren't. That's passing. I didn't. I didn't know about the land. Swap. That's interesting. You made reference of a couple of minutes ago to clearly city and in Bob to two friends would development for people who are not in the Houston area. Those names may not mean much, but those are residential developments here in the region also responsible as a result of NASA coming to the Houston area. Right. And I my family moved here in nineteen seventy four and everyone on our street work for an ethics and for my dad who worked for UPS the man next door that worked for one of the chemical companies and the man across the street who was a preacher. And so everyone else worked for NASA. Everyone else worked for NASA. And so they they had to have a place to live. So Nassau bay was built because the folks were coming here to work, and they needed homes a Lago the same way, and then friends would development developed an area called clear Lake City was annexed by Houston a few years later. And so that area was here because Naseer and folks needed homes if you go back. Go back, and you just you talk about the homes and areas that have been built up whenever JC for establish here. Nassau bay was the first home homes were built their ninety five percent of the engineers and astronauts at worked at the Johnson Space Center worked or lived in Nassau bay. And again for people who are not from the area, Nassau obeys right out the right across the street. Absolutely. So, but if you look at it today there's about fifteen or sixteen percent. And then you look over friends would is somewhere in the twenty seven percent rains. Look leaks cities about thirty one percent. So yes, it's NASA has creator Johnson's patients created these all these communities to, you know, over the years, and but clearly there needed to be homes for people to live in. But there needed to be all the other attendant construction and development to support all those two right? The road NASA road one that which is five FM five twenty eight was named from our first chairman of the board. He named it NASA road one. And so he had nothing to do with. He was from Seabrook and was in the fishing community or or industry, and but they were here and we needed to have a roadway there. And so he named it NASA road one good, Margaret. This is smart fishermen. Some of the areas of trying to change the name of it lately, right slightly big and thick. They can call it NASA Parkway won't, but we'll always be necessary. Has the the development of the area and economic developments that have come from that had that has risen and fallen with the with the space program over the years. Yes. And no, okay. So if you go back to let's just say the shuttle program, we we had about eighteen thousand employees here. They're worked space program today. We've got Morand off around thirteen five. So yet dropped but was very unique about the NASA. When when the shuttle retired the constellation was cancelled the there was about forty two hundred people that got laid off. And what we did is we worked very hard with state of Texas to transition the NASA engineers into other industry clusters. I went to the state of Texas and said, you know, we need we need help. We want to keep these people in Houston. We don't wanna lose this brain power. We don't need the brain drain. We need to keep them. And what we did people said. Well, they're they're going to face engineers will they were electoral engineers, they were ten years. I they were. Yes. Software development engineers, they just love the space program and went into the space program. So their skills are marketable, and what we were able to do. There was no downturn in the in the real estate market. Eighty eight percent of the people that got laid off got jobs in the Houston area where it was especially chemical healthcare. There was like nine hundred went to the medical center. There's a number of them went to energy. So the idea for people to think that we we went way down after that the housing market did not go down in this region at all. Does space center Houston CEO of rise and fall of visitors related to what happens at the Johnson Space Center. Well, I think it's more NASA overall. So it's the public interest and space in and what's transpiring, and when the shuttle program retired that also had an impact near gonna station because there was there was a view that is NASA shutting down is it no longer functioning and said that all the visitors centers, experienced downturn in attendance, and probably the most dramatic one was Kennedy because they're hallmark is going for launches, and they weren't launches taking place any longer, and they actually had a a nearly fifty percent drop in -tendance in our case, we needed a refresher exhibits and really pivot back to being dynamic learning destination. You're gonna nation had drifted more toward an attraction and having more entertainment type content. And so with the change we've actually seen a huge up, spike in attendance, and really the turning point for us was acquiring. Appendi- plaza the seven forty seven the shuttle carrier five and the high fidelity replica the shuttle, and that we we experienced increase of attendance by nearly two hundred thousand people, and when you're and we've been able to sustain that and grow it beyond that point. And you've been able to be pretty confident that that's why that's the relation that. Absolutely. I think well the other the other thing, and this is something we're really emphasizing is honestly people have enough stuff or things and what the priority in life now with our experiences. And so they we the priority for for visitors experiences. They want to have a carry experience. They want to get behind the scenes they wanted to stand how things function and one of the unique experiences here you really get behind the scenes at Johnson Space Center. We have the ability to take you into the working facilities and labs more. So than any other NASA center visitor center, and I think that's why we've experienced such a surge. People want to understand how do you train astronauts, and where the challenges of living in space, and how are we going to send? Humans to other celestial bodies like Mars. So those are the kind of questions we received from our visitors earlier you referred to how before space center Houston. Visitors could just come up here and park in the curb and and walk around that they can't do anymore. But as you mentioned your facility is bringing people on site talk talk about where weird they can go on site. What can they see? Absolutely. So now, it's managed, of course. And we because of security and access and also volume of visitors because we are at one point one million visitors a year, you could not have that volume of people just walking around the campus Ajaz bay on. It would be really disruptive. I wouldn't have a place to park. Yes. That's true. Exactly. And so we offer can have levels of experiences for someone who comes the general guests to space center, Houston, you can take a tram to see the mockup facility where there is a high fidelity replica, the international space station that's used for. Training and developing solutions their challenges on station. There's a whole area that used to have shuttle and at this. Now the robotics lab where they're developing robot five Valkyrie, you know, the must've danced humanoid independent humanoid robot in the world who's going to support missions with astronauts in the future, and where the also meant to our high school robotics programs. So there's a lot of community outreach. That happens to Johnson. We also will take you to see the Saturn five building in the center and five currently is the most powerful rocket is probably will be either next most powerful rockets coming along with space launch system as a less but currently saddened five which took astronauts to the moon, and we have one that's made from real components. Unlike the other two that are on display so you get up and close in understand what it took to get away from earth's gravitational pull and go all the way to the moon. Just how big it is. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's a shock was the first time. I went to stood next to just how big it is. And then on I really busy periods. We arrange special tours of the neutral buoyancy lab over Ellington airport. So we'll take us over to see again how astronauts chain in a water to prepare for Extravehicular activities or spacewalks. And that's very exciting. Because it's one of the largest indoor pools in the world, and you actually see again full-scale replica station in Seattle often training from the viewing area. And so there are a couple of facilities. We'll take you to as well, depending on excessively one challenge faces this is a working laboratory it's a working facility, and sometimes we can't get access to things. So there is a key international space station control room, and we can take guests interviewing area most times unless there's something going on that they don't want any disruption or distraction. We also to the Ryan training room. Because that is when Nasr's top priorities now is a big eight. Project and returning humans to orbit the moon and using that as a base to travel deeper into space. So we're being interpreted that as well the presence of the Johnson Space Center here clearly brings in federal budget dollars that that fund what's going on. But JSE also generates a lot of partnerships with other kinds of businesses. It's not just civil servants. It's other people that are working here. Cindy, Bob, William give me a sense of what other kind of partnerships have grown up in this area. What other kind of businesses have thrived in this area? Because NASA was here. Well, our chamber is made up of a lot of small businesses and mostly small business. We have fortune five hundred companies the we have flooring companies printing companies Bob mentioned my flooring America as as a member of bay hip. They're also member of our chamber, and they're one of the flooring contractors for NASA. And they are you know of. Small business doing business in commercial, but also residential and and have a great contract with the Johnson Space Center. So I think minimum press has a great contract with with space center, Houston. So it's even the small businesses. And in fact, next week, we're doing a workshop on how to do business with the federal government. And so it's very important to our members on how do I get, you know, how do I have that kind of access and so our small business development centers putting that on? Easy to do. I'm the federal sure it is. And we're going to find that out next week. That's why you have to do workshops on it. Right. Okay. You'd be a couple of Zambales as well. The Johnson Space Center partners with UTM be down Galveston for some human factors. Studies. That's the university of Texas medical branch through medical school and hospital in Galveston. They have a long term relationship with them. They have a very long-term relationship with the Baylor. College of medicine in the Texas medical center were they doing in fact, doing studies on the Kelly brothers some genetic studies right him, and then you look at the pumps and pipes where they partnered with the oil industry and healthcare industry to to look do crossover within each industry cluster because if you for example, if you look at the old industry, they have pumps they have pipes look at heart business. The cardiac business they have pumps in your heart, and they have pipes and believe it or not some of the some of the same calculator. That they usually oilfield using the healthcare industry they discovered that about eight or nine years ago. So we were able to get the aerospace community now involved in that as well. So you have the pumps in pipe. So there's there's a lot of partnerships. Most recently in the last five years, we created an organization called Patek. Then what we do is we find companies outside the gates that could use facilities in inside the gates did because they offer things here that you don't offer anywhere else in the world use facilities. Nasa facilities. Onsite Lanc like the test labs a number of the test labs, you have companies that need that service. They can't get it anywhere else with doing instead of coming here and having to negotiate with JSE bureaucracy, which would normally take seriously if your small business already take you six months to get in to really easy. Well is now it is now because once we created beta beta has space act agreement with Johnson Space Center and all of our contractors. So the companies go to bay tech. And within three days, you could be doing work one Johnson Space Center. We've so we took it from seriously six to nine month process down to three days, and we have a number of companies every year that come in and utilize these facilities. Well, something I'd I'd like to add onto that which I think is really important is increasingly NASA is open to the public helping to come up with solutions to challenges. And there is a tremendous amount of tech transfer or knowledge transfer from innovations space exploration that benefit society every day. We have a major gallery space center Houston on the international space station, and where we interpret and convey insights investigations that are taking place that have -application benefit life on earth. In fact, there's a great publication called benefits to humanity. That's available through NASA dot gov online, and they're literally thousands of examples of scientific insights that are are creating products and benefits. I think you know, you talk about that Wayland. L industry healthcare. They're all kinds of transfer of knowledge is taking place from research international space station to life on earth. So for example, we now have an our website something called the innovation challenge gateway where we're doing community science projects. So we're the actually the LA partner with the next space robotics challenge, and this is a really fun story. So we partnered with NASA on the last space robotics challenge that actually had cash prizes associated with it. I and it was to come up with five program solutions for rubbing up five rebel Corey. And so it was a worldwide challenge if you're US citizen or resident you qualify for a cash price. There were teams from all over the world that submitted applications, we narrowed it down in partnership with NASA. Ten semifinalists we brought them to Houston to space center, Houston. And then we took it another step where we had those teams mentor high school robotics teams and held the competition on the floor to the general public had experience it and the person who went three we had a team from a premier lodge. University MIT and a couple of others so incredibly qualified people who are working on this virtual challenge. The person who went through the five challenges was a stay at home dad from southern California who brought his six-year-old son who worked as an independent coder as a consultant. And so his insights and not been used to develop these protocols for Valkyrie. So we're now doing the next space robotics challenge, and again, it's going to be open to the general public Amer Jimmy, a number of other community challenges, and the public has been so interested in this and so engaged in and it's just it's not of the Houston region as people from across the nation and around the world that I actually have somebody fulltime has dedicated to these community challenges. But again, it's a way that anyone can participate in coming up with solutions that are going to benefit society. Ultimately, in some way. That's nice. I I remember in it's been three four years ago. Now, I remember that the neutral buoyancy laboratory that you referred to before was making an effort to let it be no. Known outside the gates that the NBL was available for companies that needed to do big testing. If things you could bring up mockup and drop it in the pool and and do testing, very accurately evolved at there was a number of companies, but probably the one I want to talk about most is the oilfield industry. They need to train their workers, if if there's a helicopter crash how to get out of the helicopter, right? And so they they started that process at the envy L had his mock helicopter in everyday they would train, you know, fifteen or twenty or thirty workers in this helicopter to to learn if the helicopter crashed into the water how to get out of the flipped left how to get out fifth. Right. Had to get out of it knows how to get out. And it was it was an incredible project that they operate for quite some time. Yeah. And they can do that a lot more efficiently than they could if they took a helicopter out here to the lake and which which is basically what they were doing had with. Those companies doing. Yeah. That's yeah. Do you see a big growth or a big change in things? When NASA Johnson Space Center start new programs. The commercial crew program is is getting off as just gotten off the ground. The first test flight was was here. Just a couple of weeks ago, Orion is is in development. Do you see any any effect of have? Although how those new programs turn into more business in the area. I think absolutely depending on what it is, for example with gateway Johnson's been identified as the site for integration for that teacher Spacelab. And I know you're referring to the plan to build this lab near the moon cracked. Yeah. That's right. I I know when company that's immediately hiring for hundred staff. I mean, they're they're trying to fill now right now. That's like a media just as a first step. And so that is like if you will have one upon the effect in this area because when you are awarded. A big project through NASA, it has great ramifications across industries, of course, the core. Scientists and engineers, but it means more housing. It means more retail in the area means families are going to be locating relocating potentially and enrolling in the school system. So it really has affect across the entire community. So absolutely. There's a great impact. I just add to that it. I believe we've turned the corner on that it has been very challenging in the recent past on getting new programs here at the Johnson Space Center. But I really believe starting with the gateway we we've turned the corner on that. So I'm excited about the opportunity that we we're going to be the home of integration for that. And in a sense having long term successful programs that were centered here prohibited new programs from coming. We were still flying. Shuttles for this long. As we were we're still we are still flying, the international space station, and it doesn't leave as much room for for new stuff and new people without a whole bunch of new government funding. True. You look back at the budget. You know, you go back six years ago or budget was about sixteen point five billion the entire federal budget for today. It's twenty one point five the Johnson Space Center when flying the shuttle or budget was. About seven point two billion dollars a year goes through went through the Johnson Space Center today. It's about four point six billion that goes through the Johnson Space Center of that four point six billion about one point two billion in salaries alone. So it's pretty solid. Yeah. When NASA has big events, you know, shorter term impact. But when there are big events here like announcing commercial crew assignments or something like that does that show up. A does that show up for businesses in the area? I would say probably does. I mean, I I don't know that I've ever thought about it in that way. But of course, I mean, we have an expanding economy and businesses are still moving here that have nothing to do with being a technology company or being I mean, look at the growth at bay brick mall and realty real estate. And and you're constantly seeing some of the older facilities being torn down with new brand new strip centers or whatever going up, and so obviously, there's a strong. They're still a strong economy here and part of it is the diversity of the of the area. But it's still we're very proud to say where the home of the Johnson Space Center, our country's astronauts, and I travel for the chamber of commerce nationwide or statewide, and whenever whereas clear lake will that is the home of the Johnson Space Center. Oh, really? Oh. So it does it. There's a sense of pride for for that identification. You know, the commercial crew announced, but I think fix our economy. A little bit differently. Okay. That process has been going on for a couple of years before they make that official announcement when they make that official Nelson. They hold it here in the media shows up that benefits the entire Houston area. That's that's when people say, oh my gosh. Nasa is open. They are. They are doing Bizet. They are working it helps it got to help with William over at the space center Houston because it gets people excited about the space program. So I think that think from that's where we benefit the most is when they make those announcements of media comes out, they talk about it people get excited in that that to me is the biggest benefit I think that's a really good point because we work very closely with visit. He's ten in the greater convention visitors bureau, and we, and that's helping he's ten attract more big conventions and professional meetings and things of that nature, and then we become a top destination for an event or other tour or some other experience associated with that convention or that business meeting that might be taking place here. We're all very focused right now. And you know. Have the the big convention of oil producers the world summit in oil is coming up really soon. You know, we're bidding for other major events. It helped us secure Super Bowl in a couple of years ago. Those are these are all factors in. And so the fact that we have a NASA center here in a major visitor center where you can come in experiences space program is a big a big, plus I mean, the whole Super Bowl fifty one was themed around space exploration. Yes. I was I was going to was going to ask you about that Nasr's here. So the giant visitors center is here, and it's now the number one visitors attraction in this region. Does eat your presence there. Help other visitors attractions in the area and contribute to to other things coming in just because space center Houston is there. I think absolutely asked and I see us as part of the the larger community, and we really are more. So than ever trying to collaborate with other organizations in town. You know, one of our top priorities. Spacing are Houston is diversity equity inclusion accessibility. And so we're really striving to be as acceptable to everyone in the region. We're actually the first Saint center in the world that's been certified as an autism service center. And that meant that are facility went through a complete review that we all are staff with training and testing, and we have special support features like quiet rooms and kids families can check out who have someone on the autism spectrum. That's just one example of many, we're I'm at MIT. That's a thing. I didn't even know was thing. Yeah. Well, it's sadly autism is very prevalent and even more so in our society, so. How do we be acceptable to everyone and welcoming or entity organization for everyone? So we've been partnering with dogs for the blind where they actually trained seeing eye dogs in our facility during peak days. So the dogs are accustomed to large numbers of people coming through work the offer special camp in overnights for all kinds of groups, including bluestar family coaster families in working with all types of associations and clubs as well. Just to give everyone a opportunity to come together in community. And because space is such a great platform to learn about all aspects of society. And and all I could Emmett curious I've had I nephew in boy scouts used to go overnight campout its base enter. Yeah, we do badges for girl scouts and boy scouts. And you mentioned the Super Bowl. And I think maybe a lot of people wouldn't connect the Super Bowl in Houston. Having anything to do with NASA? But it was a plan those there was definitely a plan. And I will tell you I'll talk to a lot of people in different cities. And they I think NFL till you that Houston was probably the best one this location. They've had in two hundred fifteen years simply because of what NASA did. Yeah. With their exhibits. It was it was a huge draw. Huge. I mean, I can't explain to William you might be. I think it's important to have a sense of place where ever you go, especially for big sporting events or any kind of convention, so and we have world petroleum congress coming which I detail. A little bit earlier that'll probably be thinking very much around the NASA and the space program that was the case for Super Bowl. But you want people to have a sense of place where you go, and that's a that's a major part of our identity here in Houston. It is basically. And space is already. You can see it everywhere is gearing up for the fiftieth anniversary of the moon landing. How do you imagine? That is or is it already having an impact right here in this community. Various down in the style, Jake. And so they like that that history, and that that memory of that, we're we've gone through pictures and looked at stuff in it. And so we've themed some of our events epicurious evening that we have in January at space center, Houston that was themed after Apollo's fiftieth anniversary, we've our parade with the moon and and included the logo for that. And so it's an exciting time. And and makes people people remember, and and appreciate what they did. I mean, what those folks did that never been done before. And so I think it has a great impact and especially in this area when people feel so close to it. Whether they lived here or were part of it at all they still feel close to that. I think absolutely we as you can imagine we are doing major TV and we're collaborating with headquarters and the other visitor centers, my belief is that Houston will be like nears even New York on July twentieth. This is everyone's going to be focused, and we have put together. A major calendar of programming in activity. We're working actually very closely with organizations across the city with Houston. I visit Houston promotional agencies of the city of Houston and linking to a national calendar that NASA has posted as well. But we're really in in Houston focusing on the whole summer recalling it space city summer and have programming happening, and you can go to our website to learn more. We have a calendar where those things posted. So we have everything from our thought leaders series where we're bringing in luminaries from the Apollo program to we're doing a space onscreen series. So every month for showing feature film. So we showed in January last man on the moon and did a panel with Jean's daughter and his first wife that given insider perspective, and what transpired we showed the right stuff last month, showing Hidden Figures next Friday as space center, Houston, but I do want to focus on that period in July, which I think is going to be so exciting here where beginning on launch day. The sixteenth of July. We have a panel with. Fourteen or sorry, roundtables fourteen to the flight controllers from the Apollo era who are all going to talk about aspects of their experiences. We're going to have all kinds of events and programs. The the really the huge day, of course is going to be the twentieth. Which was the day. We landed on the moon and took the first steps in the great thing is the first steps for mid afternoon on a Saturday central time. So we're going to have a countdown experience and then in the evening about nine fifty eight PM as when Neil Armstrong, you know, had the first boot on the surface of the moon, and we're actually planning a huge concert and festival that day. And then we're also at the close on splashdown, which is really important Johnson. Because we the people here did not relaxed until the astronauts were safely back on earth out of the capsule on the deck of the carrier. And so we're going to big sixty themed party on the twenty four th on splashdown day. So those are just a highlight of the few things we're doing we're also is mentioned in forget to ask you again. What's the web? Oh space, center dot org. So just if you Google or put in your browser space center, Houston, we'll come up, and you can go to our calendar section and learn more, but they're going to be things happening all over the city on the twentieth. Discovery green is going to be showing the new documentary. Apollo eleven. The museum of natural sciences has interpretive domes that they're going to have all over the city. We're actually reaching out to surrounding communities that have agreed to be part of the celebration that day. So we'll have a lot happening here. They're going to be celebrations happening throughout the Houston region. Are there? Bad aspects of the area being so reliant and having prospered so much from the government being here. Oh, I'd say no we have such a diversified economy here. Now, we really do need. It all started with the Justice bay center. But it's not one hundred percent reliant. Absolutely not. I would say our economy here. Now today believe it or not is somewhere around twenty two or twenty three percent reliant on jumps baiser. That's that's seems like a small number. It is. But it's it's the heart and soul is what drives it. I something. I'd like to add I totally agree with that that it's become much more diversified. Which is a is a good thing. But the space program now works in partnership with so many entities. And I think the Genesis of the commercial sector was a natural thing, you know, Houston now has the innovation quarter of the logical quarter along the spine of the city along the the tramline and Johnson Space Center is working very closely with that. Initiative. And so because there's so much innovation that happens here and also much knowledge transfer that can that can stimulate new businesses. So we're really keep a key part of that. I mean space center Houston has just established a partnership with the university of Houston, and with sensuous into college and workforce development because we don't have enough people here in science, and engineering, and we're constantly having to recruit people from other areas, but we could homegrown more of those qualified individuals. And so we're really we're looking at how can we improve the pool increase the pool of local talent. What aspects of the relationship? Am I not see and we talked about what other what other important things are going on here because Naseer? Well, go back and talk about spaceport. We created the spaceport about five years ago. I went to mayor needs Parker suggested to her that she goes through the process of creating a space port, and she looked at me like I was crazy because an east. I'm not talking about launching rockets. I'm talking about supersonic travel air travel. I'm talking about going from from Houston to New York and forty minutes and going from Houston to England two and a half hours. Those those those planes are being designed developed a we're better to do it than in Houston Houston. We're an international city. There's only one city in United States of America has more embarrassing than we do. And this New York, and they beat us by five five we are an international city. So, and we are we would be when I told her I said, we would be the only spaceport in an MSA the other spaceport there's ten of them located all around the US, but all of them are not in an MSA there on the right on the coast there in the desert. During west Texas there in south Texas where better than right here? So she she went through the process, we got with Merrill, d as at Houston airport system. He is a bulldog. He got it done in about two and a half years. Spent we spent a lot of money to get it done. But we are growing the spaceport. And how does that designation at in its at Ellington air force roaches? A few miles up the road from JSE. What does that designation mean is going to happen there? That means that the planes can take off and land in travel at supersonic travel over the Gulf right now you can't fly over the years. But that's quickly. Changing NASA has created a new plane that has a low boom effect that we had tested over the gal and Galveston this past year it pass it flying colors, and that's the next step to completing that the those type of aircraft and be able to fly over the continental United States supersonic travel. No, what you have to you have to be spaceport in order to launch and land supersonic travel near craft nice. What about pride people around here care about the fact that Nasr's here? I absolutely. I mean, we're Texans. Right. We're we're very proud of this region and what it's done for for the community. But again, it goes back to the heart and soul, and it's really grown the city of Houston into what it is. It really has. And so many folks came here they weren't from here. They came here. And they're still here. They retired here. They stayed in this community because it's a great community and it honors the NASA tradition the J C tradition. And and I think that why would they why would they say here for their families? Not here. I think the other measure of that is you look at the recognition. So if you go to any of the big sporting events, there's always a Nassan I would the Astros of the rockets or the Texans radios the rodeo. Yeah, you can go on and on with the example of rodeo. Here's a readiness tonight there. So there is a recognition, and and those organizations would not hold those those nights if they didn't know the public would embrace it the public care and are passionate about it. And they're really proud of that this is the home of NASA center. William Cindy bump, thank you for sharing your expertise on this very interesting conversation, inviting us up Tunde. All mankind. Bring your. Myspace. If you wanna learn more about NASA in the Houston area, we've posted links to our guests organizations. Also, check out NASA dot gov slash Johnson. For information on JSE. You can go online to keep up with all things. Nasa at NASA dot gov. It would also be good for you to follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. You will thank me when you go to those sites you can use the hashtag ask NASA to submit a question or suggest a topic for us please indicate that it's for Houston. We have a podcast you can find the full catalog of all of our episodes by going to NASA dot gov slash podcasts. When you do that. Please check out the other cool NASA podcast that you can find their like welcome to the rocket ranch on a mission. Nasa in Silicon Valley, there are more. They're all available right there in the same spot where you can find us. Nasa dot gov slash podcast. This podcast was recorded March thirteenth twenty nineteen. Thanks to Alex Perryman. Gary joy. Jordan and Nora Moran for their part in the production to Debbie Kander for suggesting the topic. And to our guests, Cindy dewey's, William Harris and Bob Mitchell, we'll be back next week.

NASA Johnson Space Center Houston Johnson Space Center NASA Johnson Space Center NASA Johnson space Flight Center Texas space center university JSE Cindy dewey John Johnson Space Center president and CEO chamber of commerce America Bob Mitchell official William Harris
Preparing For Mars

Houston We Have a Podcast

46:29 min | 1 year ago

Preparing For Mars

"Houston we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center episode. One forty two preparing from ours. I'm Gary Jordan. I'll be your host today on this. Podcast we bring in the experts. Scientists engineers astronauts also. Let you know what's going on. In the world of human spaceflight we have nearly twenty years of continuous human presence on the International Space Station. That's nearly twenty years of studying the human body understanding systems and fine-tuning operations for how to conduct human spaceflight missions not to mention the decades of human spaceflight missions and experienced before that a lot has changed over time based on what we've learned a lot of questions have come up that are important to understanding how things will change when traveling to Mars. You might think that's a lot of experience already. So why don't we just go to Mars? It's hard to imagine. Just how hard Mars is. It requires near absolute perfection and any deviation may be a risk to the safety of the humans on board or the success of the mission so the question is are we ready. You can even ask. How ready are we? Luckily we have an organization right here at the NASA Johnson Space Center and all across the agency looking at what we have and what we need to make Mars mission successful Michelle Rucker is a Mars. Integration lead at Johnson Space Center for the Mars Integration Group. A team that spans across all of NASA. She's a thirty-three year veteran of NASA joining in the aftermath of the space shuttle Challenger accident and supporting the investigation by conducting booster material tests and analysis. She has participated in a range of exciting projects such as the International Space Station. Environmental Control and life support systems hyper impact research spacesuit and spacewalking tools space station exercise equipment system engineering and Orion crew exploration vehicle testing and verification. She currently leads. The Mars. Integration Group developing crude Mars mission concepts. She holds two patents and has authored numerous technical publications so on today's podcast. Michelle goes over the details of what we know what we have what we need and how. Nasa's artist program That will establish sustainable. Human presence on the moon will help inform and fine tune the ideal mission structure for a Mars mission. And I hope you like this topic because there's going to be a lot more this month kicks off monthly episodes that are all about a Mars mission. And we'll call it to Mars monthly over the next few months or maybe even the next year we'll dive deep into the various elements. We discussed today with Michelle so here. We go preparing for a human mission to Mars with Michelle Rucker Enjoy County owners have the show rucker. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. Thanks for having me so. This is an interesting topic. I'm really excited. Talk about how. We're preparing for Mars. There's a lot to consider. It seems like it's a pretty small group. Doing it. Want to get a little bit of sense of your background though to understand what has to go into the people that are actively thinking about what we need for Mars. What's your background? So I was born in Alaska So extreme environments don't scare me the first requirement for for thinking about Moore's I went to school here in Houston at Rice University. I've got a couple of engineering degrees in mechanical engineering I started my career at the White Sands Test Facility in New Mexico with NASA. Yeah if you're familiar with Whitesands we do all the fun hazardous testing stuff out there. So that means blowing stuff up and setting it on fire and shooting micrometeorites at it so I spent the first part of my career trying to destroy spacecraft But at some point you you get tired of that and you want to start creating So I transferred here to Johnson Worked on the space station with the life. Support Systems I did stints with the exercise equipment. That was that was one of the funnest jobs I did. Oh I Also worked Constellation Program for both the altar project in the Orion project and then When the Constellation Program wound down I started doing exploration for the first time. So I'm relatively new compared to some of the folks who've been working about Working on Mars for years now I've only been doing Mars work for maybe the last eight or nine years. That's still significant. But I think what's important is you have a you have that breadth of experience. He did a little bit of this. A little bit of that space stations. Really important that we're GONNA fold that into today story a little bit so I think that's that's really good background to have they say your new eight or nine experiences. That's eight eight or nine eight or nine years. That's a lot of experience to me So just from what you've learned in your eight or nine years thinking even just all the way back to when we first started here at NASA thinking about Mars missions and what we need for Mars missions. What were we thinking about so Mars? Missions are the history within NASA. Sort of interesting Only a few weeks after the Apollo eleven landing Werner von Braun put together a proposal for Mars mission essentially taking the the lunar hardware that he'd just developed successfully for the moon and supersizing it and go into Mars So that was that was an initial proposal At the time the agency was books on moon when the when the Apollo Room wound down NASA focused a little bit more on on low-earth orbit so the shuttle and station era. We were a little bit closer to home But even during that period there was a A small office here at Johnson Space Center across the agency there were there were small groups working on some of the Mars technologies thinking about some of the mission concepts To Me Moore's is a system engineering problems as much as anything We know how do most of the individual pieces? That's how do you put it all together into a single mission concept to be successful. I see and that's where some of the work you're doing is coming in. It's taking all those separate pieces and and thinking about them inactivity putting them into what we're thinking about. Now what the what? Resources and technologies we have now but thinking just further ahead and way further out. Yes so taking the technologies we have Looking at whether we need to supplement those new technologies Do we need to extend the technology is a little bit more Thing about operations operations have changed a lot over the years. Now we've got the commercial players involved in. That's an exciting new development So so things have become a little bit more streamlined Some of the things The way we did business Even for procurements Back in the shuttle and station days were developing new and faster techniques for doing procurement. So that's that's exciting as well okay. So let's go right into it thinking about those challenges for Mars. The things that are going through your brain all the time. What are we thinking about when it comes to what's what to do? What to integrate Into a Mars mission. So what's interesting about about human spaceflight is the entirety of human spaceflight has literally revolved around the earth Everything that we did with the moon moon revolves around the earth Everything we did with the the space station was shuttle we all it was all revolving around the earth. In order to get to Mars. We have to change their coordinate frame of reference we have to start thinking about revolving around the Sun so first we have to chase Mars around the sun to catch it and once we get there. Earth wasn't where we left it so we've got a chase earth back around the sun to get home again so it's a it's A. It's a bigger scope problem than the types of missions that we've been focused on so the challenges. I like to break into really sort of three pieces. There's the getting there the living there in the coming home so you really stepped through the. Let's do a pieces so the getting there. So the the Trajectory guys like to say that it's two thousand times farther that's like the Odom eter reading to get to Mars and back versus trying to get to the moon and back And again that's because both earth and Mars are moving so it's not just a straight line there straight-line back you've got to chase these planets around the Sun So so two thousand times farther than than the moon. It only took us a few days to get to the moon. You can go to the moon and back in a week to get to Mars and back that is it's a little bit different How long it takes the transit time as a function of when you go were the planets are relative to each other at the time that you leave and what kind of ride your writing in But typically we're talking two to three year mission duration so that's a much longer mission duration than the types even even the longest expeditions. We've done space station to date. It's only been a year So these are very long missions that we're looking at so long duration mission engineered a lot of stuff. You need a lot of food and you get a lot of oxygen spare parts. A lot of consumable parts And that means we need to launch a lot of stuff from Earth or we need to figure out a way to either make it or find it somewhere either at our destination or or on the way once we get tomorrow orbit will need to land a fairly large payload to date the largest thing. We've landed on. Mars is the curiosity rover. That's about one metric ton the smallest human rated vehicles. We've we've been able to squeeze we're looking at cruise of maybe four people crew of four still probably require about a twenty ton twenty metric ton landers was twenty times as big as anything we've landed previously and Unlike Earth Mars doesn't have a a nice thick atmosphere where we can use it to to help. Slow down so so are entered descent and landing is challenging the other problem with Mars Global Dust Storms. You may have read about the Opportunity rover unfortunately yeah met with with the tragic end with the district in two thousand eighteen. I believe So dust storms can obscure the landing site Swiss. Another thing we need technologies. That would be able to deal with that Or we need to plan. You have good weather prediction and build a plan around doors so once you once you get there and land. Then they're still living there so in some ways. Mars is a lot like home. There's a day-night cycle on Moore's Days a little bit longer a Mars. It's about twenty four hours thirty seven minutes Got Mountains Valleys I've seen photos that. The rovers have taken. It looks just like the the desert southwest and someplace. Oh lots of beautiful vistas It had seasons so Martian years is about twice as long as an earth year but it does have seasons on a balmy summer day can be as warm as eighty degrees so in some ways. Mars is attractive because it seems hospitable. Also exotic let's get to moons Phobos and Demos If you're under Greek mythology they were the Twin sons of aries. I believe There it'd be moons but I've always thought it was. Kinda cool that if you were sitting on the Martian surface looking up at the night sky the moon moons cross each other in orbit which is chemical. Wow that would be a site that would be pretty neat but Mars is also challenging. So let's get reduced. Gravity humans are used to one g Mars is reduced. A few weighed one hundred pounds on earth. You'd only weigh about thirty eight pounds on Mars but because there is gravity the challenges that carrying around a big heavy spacesuit becomes more problematic word about that too much in the ISS days because with microgravity a big bulky space it wasn't really a problem But then I assess. You don't really walk. You use your hands to translate around So so our space suits will need to be redesigned for planetary surface once again on the surface that humans are GonNa need a lot of power can upload those selfish right Bush got life. Support Communication Mobility Whatever science we're going to do the surface so we'll probably need a lot of power The conventional wisdom is. We'LL LEARN SPACE. We just use solar But Mars is a little bit further from the Sun. Earth's there's there's a reduced solar energy there the other problems the storms dust storm. That's what happened with opportunity. The storm knocked out the solar energy and opportunity. Didn't make it so. We need to look at some alternative sources for power and it can get cold in some places in some seasons So pretty extreme environment so now for finished up our mission on Mars ready to come home All of the Mars missions to date Oliver Robotic missions have been one way fares. We've never actually tried to launch anything from Moore's so Mars does have a lower gravity so getting something off. The surface of Mars would be easier than getting something off the surface of of earth but still estimate about seven kilograms of propellant. For every one kilogram of mass. We're trying to get into orbit Each crew member is going to be. You know maybe one hundred kilograms. So you're talking about a lot of propellant We've estimated up to thirty eight metric tonnes for four crew science equipment. And they're so. That begs the question of do we bring all that propellant from Earth? And then try to land it Or do we figure out a way to make propellant? There are some interesting questions once you get back into space. Get in your transport. Come back to Earth. You've got the the earth re entry problem you about eleven kilometers per second. I re entry back into Earth. That's what Ryan that's the challenge. Ryan was was designed over So so those are the challenges and all of those taken together could be daunting if you were trying to start from scratch to solve challenges But the cool thing about what NASA has been doing over ever since von Braun. I propose Mars is. We've been whittling away at these challenges piece by piece so we don't have to start from scratch a lot of the projects that you may have heard about. Recently optimists the Human Landing System Gateway Plus I assess shuttle experience Some of the NBA suit development work. That's been going on. All of that will contribute to helping. Us solve some of these challenges. That's significant. That's a lot of consideration. I mean that was what you just described right there. That little packet was the was the Mars mission. It was getting there. It was living there. It was coming back. It was in those three those three sections and it's I'm smiling over here. You can't see it because we're on the podcast smiling but I mean it you make it sound like an and that's it and that's what we need to do but I know it's so hard. There's a lot of challenges that are associated with this in terms of what we're investigating. Let's kind of dive a little bit deeper into some of these challenges. Starting with getting there I I pulled out a couple of key elements and as you were going there. You know you're like Oh that's a challenge but I know it's like it's a really big challenge. So one of them was just distance. Just being far away is just makes everything so much more complicated because with being far away comes you have communication delays You're talking about Significant amount of energy to get there a significant amount of time to get there and then the positions like at. You did mention this. The positions of Mars and earth have to be in such a way that meet the requirements to actually go catch up with Mars. That's all very significant things. It's pretty astonishing that there are smart guys. You can calculate precisely where earth and Mars will be at any given instant in time with such phenomenal accuracy. It it still amazes me We actually rely on We we've got a team here at Johnson. The Maya Team. That does a lot of trajectory analysis. We also use some folks at Langley Research Center that do trajectory analysis. And also we've got some team members at the Glenn Research Center that help us with that So yeah we we spend a Lotta time trying to figure out exactly who's where when I assess if you run out of something. Pretty easy to resupply it If you're halfway to Moore's a little bit harder you can't really get supply on demand so you have to Do a lot of logistics analysis. Predict exactly what you'll need when you need it. One of the cool projects were working on right now with ISS. We're talking to them about Using I assess to help her. Find some of our logistics models They do really good tracking of what goes up and down but because they have on demand They don't have to necessarily predict very far in advance. We'll have to predict out up to two or three years in advance So one of the things we're doing is talking to them about. Let's let's start developing models to predict what you'll need on ISS and then we'll look at and see how close we came to that So we're using ISS today as a way to help refine some of the tools that will need for Mars later interesting. You're you're almost. It's Kinda like over planning. You know like like you're you're not just resupplying what you need on the space station because you mentioned it's your time constraints aren't as drastic as Mars. So let's just pretend that we're you know we're have to model what we need what we will need what we're going to run out of for the next two years so I s is the perfect place to practice that we're also using I assess As a we're in discussions with I assess to us Returning crew members as a as a Mars analog so after six months in microgravity on ISS physically. They'll be at about the same condition as a crew. That's about to land on Mars So we've been working with the Human Research Program to develop some experiments where returning isis crew members would do. Some simple tasks nothing. That would be dangerous for them but but just to try to understand what we what the crew could be expected to do on Mars Would obviously try to automate as much as we can But if the crew needed to go do an emergency eva to go repair something for example. The question is how soon after landing. Would they be able to do it after having spent six months on? Iss there's an enormous crew of people here on earth that greets the returning crew and you know picks them up and carries them where they need to go and doesn't let them Do Anything strenuous for the first few days. They won't have that. Opportunity Omar so they could potentially be asked to do things That they would never be asked to do here on earth So we want to understand what the capabilities will be Are there countermeasures? We can use to try to make sure that their In in good enough physical condition. Strong enough With good enough balance to be able to to do Not Necessarily strenuous things. Put things that could be dangerous. If you are far away from a doctor You lose your balance and fall for example and Yes we we. We try to try to think ahead to those sorts of things and use the the available programs that we have emplaced today. Sort of piggy back on those where we can interesting. So it's like you're you're trying to you're using crew members returning to the planet as a way to think about if astronauts were on a very long journey to Mars. In you said was like nine ish months to get there again. Depends on when you when which opportunity exactly when you leave. The planets are strategic propulsion system. That you're using. That's an important distinction But just I mean regardless. Sounds like it's going to be a relatively long time about what we're doing now on this space station give or take So when you land I guess what the what the human is going to be able to do what we can do to try to counter measures. We can put in place to see how we can maybe help them get ready to do something. Another thing that's coming to. My mind is technology to maybe support. Maybe holding them in place for a little longer. Life Support Systems and and the necessary provisions. So that maybe if during the recovery phase they just need to wait it out. Maybe they have that ability. Because I know I mean I've I've been out to Kazakhstan. I've I've carried an astronaut and I know they are just like I mean but they put right to work right so they have to do these these these tests that you're saying right now they have to do these tests to see to test performed so they're out there moving but they are. They are dizzy their dizzying there. They've had a long journey in their bodies are adjusting so modeling. That weren't that's one of the unknowns is So here on Earth we. They don't have to get up and do anything right away. There's a crew there to help them One of the things we want to know is how soon could they safely get up and do certain tasks without risk So that's that's exciting area of of research that were were partnering with HP on Back on the transit questions. How long does it take to get their center? One of the things that we're looking at is can we minimize either? How much propellant it takes to get to Mars and back or the transit time or both So we're looking at a range of of new technologies Electric propulsion is an interesting one. So the the gateway is it will be using solar electric propulsion. Those electric thrusters are interest. we sort of see that as the evolutionary path for the the Mars system so get way essentially becomes our our test bed for for for that PROPO- system gateway also there does forces outside Earth's protective Protection so so it will give us some deep space Experience with In in a in a harsher environment than a little bit closer earth The radiation and so on Long duration missions that that was one of the challenge because of the during the the distance. Tomorrow back Looking at long durations. Iss has already given us the long duration human exposure to spaceflight. So we have a much better understanding of that then back at the time. When Warner von Ron I propose more mission Isis has also given us a lot of long duration equipment experience. We understand You know the meantime between failure and certain types of of systems We're looking at regenerative systems Trying to be more self sufficient so so I assist has done a lot for for the Mars concepts The new commercial partnerships that some of the launch capabilities. That we have available now that von Braun didn't have If we do need to launch a lot of propellant to get to Mars We have more options now than than we used to have. So that's exciting Being able to land large payloads on Mars were developing and testing Several different technologies might. My personal favorite is the hypersonic inflatable. Aerodynamic deceleration acronym is the hired That's a pretty cool system to be able to use the the The big giant inflatable that gives you enough surface area to help. Slow down your payload before you you know Mars giving gateway will do for us is I always say that. Lunar Landers coming going from gateway to the lunar surface will look very similar operationally to Mars landers coming and going to the deep space transport so gateway will offer an opportunity Gateway paired with the human landing system will offer a lot of relevant operational experience that will be directly applicable to what we wanted to more on the the living their challenges We already have a lot of experience with with microgravity which we need for the transit leg of the mission from our shuttle at night says experience But the artists program will give us some Some reduced gravity Lunar gravity experience on the surface of the moon that will have some applicability for example spacesuits won't need to develop a planetary suit for the moon Something that you can walk around in the hip joints boots that we use on. Iss are not really appropriate for walking around in a dusty environment so that that's something that we'll get from the ornaments program and then Surface power we're looking at a couple of options Oversight just over sizing the solar arrays More surface area is one way to go. Another way to go is a compact fusion. Power System The our space Our our technology mission directorate is looking at at some alternative power sources to to solar that are that are of interest to us. The moon is cold. Industy dislike Mars will be so that gives us Especially during the lunar night gets pretty cold so artists will give us a lot of experience with the extreme environments and then On the the coming home again. We're looking at. We're looking to human landing system. The the lunar asset element may be directly applicable getting from the the lunar surface. Backup Gateway Is Not unlike getting from the Mars surface? Backup to Mars orbit so We're looking to that program for some Maybe some get ahead on on a Mars asset vehicle and then of course wants to get back to to Earth Orbit or Cisco Inter Space Orion is already solved the problem of of getting the humans back to the ground again so that we check that off of our to do list we just rely on on a Ryan so a lot of the challenges have been whittled away or have been at least whittled back enough that they're within reach now for us to to use for Mars. Yeah I pulled out a couple of them because you went through Those those same three key areas getting there and living there and then coming back. I was thinking about things that were either. We either have or are working on right now. Regenerative light support was one that I pulled out because I know that's an important part of living and working on the space station which we've been doing for almost twenty years now And developing those technologies. That's just something that we have a lot of data a lot of experience with and is going to be needed for for Mars mission. Something that we that we have but the one thing I was really looking forward to is all this artist. Stuff that you're talking about. You're talking about all these technologies that are helping us get to the moon. Yes but in a sense. There's a lot of applications and important applications for a Mars mission. That was one thing I think was. It can't be on really understated because we talked about how hard Mars is but this artists as almost a practice for Mars and preparation for Mars and data data gathering for Mars. That's really important right now. We're thinking of the moon is our is our test bed. Yeah we will obviously the cheapest place to test. These things is on earth and we will test as much as we can on earth. I'm sure my friends it at the White Sands test facility excited about doing a lot of hazards testing out there so we will test as much as we can earth But at some point you gotta get some relevant space experience There's only so much you can do in microgravity microgravity helps us test the transit leg. But it doesn't really do much for the planetary piece of it The Moon gives us that it gives us operational experience a lot of materials reliability experience We're pretty excited about a battle. The testing that we can do on the moon. Yeah now you're the the group you're in and the work that you're doing is mainly is it informing is it advising is actively thinking and writing down requirements for what you think we'll need for a Mars mission or what. We think we should be working on now to prepare for Mars mission. We're not quite to the point of reading requirement okay With well with one potential exception. So we've got the habitat Broad area announcement the effort. That's going on That was a procurement to look at an in-space Habitat which would Potentially have applicability as the deep space transport habitat so so that is one specific procurement where very high level requirements have been defined A. We're not quite to the point of defining requirements for many of the other systems yet But we are developing concepts Concepts of operations Being able to jump into requirements should go pretty quick when we're ready to to pull the trigger okay but you're thinking about at least the elements that you'll need and we went. We went through a lot of them. You just mentioned a habitat. I mean one of the main parts of journey to Mars is the actual journey to Mars is getting there so there's going to be some form of a vehicle transportation technology whatever to actually trains it from Earth to Mars from Mars to Earth so thinking about what we might need to what that may look like what will need to consider. Because it's a long time it's going to be a long time So thinking about those things ahead of time is really important and then another part that I pulled out besides your three thinking about the technology we have now in our testing thinking about the technologies that are coming up. for Artists another part that I pulled out was and this is a very important part. The Human Element Thinking about what what a person is going to have to deal with and you already talked about the landing it considering a landing from the International Space Station from low-earth orbit having that be a model For what a Mars mission would look like it. Sounds like there's a lot of human components for artists as well correct. Yeah our our team We are so lucky Don Pettit has been assigned as our our crypt. Wow and he is. He's so awesome. Haven't ever googled his his Iss Youtube Videos. He is there. He is fun to work with so Saddam's been involved with us Yes we have been doing. A lot of thinking about the human systems Most of the a lot of the Mars focus over the last few years was with the science with the with the rovers the robotic missions the science missions The human missions are completely different The science missions have taught us a lot about Mars about the conditions on Mars. What we can expect on Mars and That is extremely valuable to help us design for human systems. But the you know the the curiosity just a few watts of power doesn't really need very much power Humans are GonNA kilowatts of power. So it's Once you put the humans in the system and you start trying to Run Life Support Systems and You know just the level of safety requirements that that you need to be sure you need to have a plan. B. Plan C. I always give my friends at at. Jpl HARD TIME. Because they're robots They don't need Food or water or bathrooms and the human systems. Humans will need all of those things so there's a whole new level of stuff that has to has to be thought about for the human missions that the robotic missions never really had to worry about It draws power once you have more power. You need more thermal control Once you have more thermal control more power. That's more structural mass. So these things tend to snowball a little bit and that's why our systems into being much bigger than the robotic systems are People always ask well why not just send robots then when I just send robots we do. We really need to send humans That is a debate that will ridge for the ages What the scientists will tell you. Is that the humans can do in a day what it would take the robots to do a year or more to deal So so yes. There's a compelling reason to send the humans humans can make real time decisions Humans can fix things that break When poor opportunity got caught in the dust storm and the and the solar arrays were. Were covered There was nobody that addressed them off. So unless you've thought through that and plan for that contingency with the Ro- robotics that's the kind of thing that if a if a we'll get stuck somewhere the humans can get out and deal with that whereas the robots can't so High I can understand both sides of the argument I happen to work on the human spaceflight side so I'm a little bit. More predisposed to that side is short but I think maybe you might have a better appreciation than most for maybe living on earth and what earth has to offer and things that maybe people don't consider when they think rush why. Why are we not on Mars right? Now let's go. Let's go to Mars. You know it's it's really hard because there's a lot of things that we're doing right here on earth that are just we don't even recognize. Our conveniences are just there you know if I was thinking one thing I was thinking about when you were talking about a journey to Mars and the distances and bringing things with you. I just did a road trip to Florida. It took me seventeen hours and yes. I packed the car full of waters and snacks. But I stopped for coffee for bathroom for you. Know just to take a break because I could and I could get out of my vehicle and I can kind of get more provisions and I can use other facilities and then I could get back in that vehicle and I can keep driving. But that's not. It's not a luxury for journey to. Mars. I'm sure you have a better appreciation than most of this so being from Alaska a have a very good position. So the reason I'm from Alaska Is Because back in the fifties the US government was trying to encourage more people to move to Alaska trying to open up The economy there and One of the challenges of getting Alaska was. It was really far away and there weren't a lot of gas stations on the way and nobody could really carry that much gas to get all the way to Alaska so they offered homestead opportunities to folks who were willing to set up gas stations and My maternal grandmother moved to Alaska. Set up a gas station near near Palmer. And that's why my family was in Alaska so for me. It doesn't bother me at all to think about eventually setting up waypoints between here and Mars to refill vehicles. I know some people are overwhelmed by the sheer difficulty of that. It's hard and it's dangerous and it is but probably no more daunting than it was to my grandmother to Alaska With a couple of our kids and until And setting up a gas station out in the in the wilderness of time so So yeah it's it's hard but there are people here on earth who are up for that challenge. You definitely have a better appreciation. It's even in your family. Just just working on this and thinking about Myers and all the challenges that have to be answered and thought about before we actually go there but thinking about some of the things that are in the near future for artists and some of the answers that we might get some of the questions that we might continue to. That might continue to come up and we might have to learn. What are you most excited about for this near future? Going to the moon and thinking about some of the things that we might be able to answer for Mars mission there. I spent most of my career working with shuttle and Space Station And those were really fun programs to work with. We were launching humans pretty often and we were doing lots of interesting things Going to the moon is a whole different set of challenges at some of the same challenges as your state. You suffer launch people. They're still danger and risk in the things above that But getting landing on the moon. That's a whole different set of challenges than just going up to space station working on the moon that's a whole different set of challenges To me that's that's the most exciting. It's the unknown unknowns. The things we don't know about We learned a lot with Apollo up but those were very short missions Being able to stay a little bit longer on the Moon Which is probably what will need to be able to do for Mars What does give us a lot of information? And we'll we'll learn what doesn't work and I think that is almost as valuable as as designing things that you hope work knowing what doesn't work is pretty important. That's incredible Michelle Rucker. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. Thank you so much. Music came to bring your long. Hey thanks for listening. We have some bonus content for you at the end of the show. So Hang Tight. I the credits. This episode was recorded on January eighth. Twenty twenty thanks to Alex Perriman Pat Ryan nor Moran Belinda Lido and Jennifer Hernandez thanks again to rucker for taking the time to come on the show. Hope you like this topic because there's going to be a lot more this month. Kicks off monthly episodes. All about a Mars mission will call it Mars monthly and over the next few months maybe even a year we dive deep into the various elements discussed with Michelle. Today last month NASA released a new podcast Nastase curious universe. Our Universe is a wild and wonderful place in this podcast. You'll join NASA astronauts scientists and engineers on a new adventure each week. Take a listen before an astronaut ever sets foot aboard the space station. They have to train somewhere. You might not expect. This isn't just any old swimming pool. It's the neutral buoyancy lab located at Nasr's Johnson Space Center in Houston Texas. This special pool contains six point. Two MILLION GALLONS OF WATER ENOUGH TO FIT NINE. Olympic sized pools inside. It's where astronauts. Like nick come to train so the pool is this gigantic pool. It's two hundred feet long. It's one hundred feet wide and it's forty feet deep. It is enormous. It's still not big enough to fit the entire space station in it. But it fits full-scale large chunks of the station so that we can practice and that's our training ground. The Pool is where astronauts I get acquainted with the armor that protects them from space their space suits and that can be. Its own challenge. First thing you've got to suit up it can take about forty five minutes and the assistance of multiple suit technicians to get the soon on checking to make sure that every piece is fitted in working properly from the helmet locking into place to the gloves sitting around every finger have to learn how to use the space suit. Because it's not like wearing clothes. It's it's constraining and limit some of the things you can do. It's fatiguing because of the pressure of having it stiff and so you have to learn how to how to use it and that takes that takes hours underwater getting to know your spacesuit once you have the suit on and it's been double and triple checked you can prepare to enter the neutral buoyancy lab. Even though you're not out in space just yet the pool will simulate what you might feel once you're out there. Why because being underwater simulates weightlessness the neutral buoyancy lab? Is there to train us? Because that's one of the places are one of the ways that we can try to simulate being weightless so that idea of neutral buoyancy it's called neutral buoyancy because when you're in water and you don't sink but also you don't float you're completely neutral. It's like you're hovering in place and so it feels as though I'm weightless and I can maneuver myself around the outside of the of the space station and have the experience of working in a weightless environment and so we're constantly trying to to balance out the weight of an object with its buoyancy so that things just float in front of you weights and flotation devices are carefully combined to let astronauts feel what it's like to be weightless in space when an astronaut training in the pool their backpack the primary life support. Subsystem is filled with air. They can breeze an instruments that monitor their health. You've gotta get everything straight because once you go underwater. That's all you've got or the tools you took with you and you're GONNA be down there for six hours. That's about the amount of time it takes for a space walk in actual space once. You're in the pool. Waterproof instructions are attached to your arm and rehearse the space. Walk as if you're doing the real thing before we get started on that if we can just got that out the whole time. A team of people is watching every movement of your practice spacewalk. They monitor the pressure inside a suit and the temperature and the test director is making sure that the whole process is going according to plan good teamwork there so our need to float a little bit higher on this in alignment trained scuba divers. Guide you around a replica of the outside of the International Space Station here. We're lying down here. Having this full size mockup of the space station underwater allows us to to essentially memorize where every handrail is where every handhold is. And if I'm going to work in a particular location on orbit I will have seen that and understand that location on the ground. If you like this clip you can check out the full episode at NASA Dot Gov Slash. Podcasts curious universe is right at top. Make sure he's described to get the latest. They have a new episode coming out on Monday. Thanks for sticking with us to the end. Give us a rating on whatever platform. You're listening to us on and tell us how did we'll be back with a new episode of Houston. We have a podcast next week.

NASA Johnson Space Center International Space Station Mars Integration Group Johnson Space Center Moore ISS Werner von Braun Houston Michelle Rucker Alex Perriman Pat Ryan NASA Johnson Space Center White Sands Test Facility Alaska rovers Gary Jordan Johnson official NASA
Small Steps, Giant Leaps: Episode 35, Launch America

Small Steps, Giant Leaps

29:59 min | 1 year ago

Small Steps, Giant Leaps: Episode 35, Launch America

"We are getting ready to launch astronauts against so that responsibility is huge masses. Add high level of insight into every aspect of this ensure like grew safety. I was talking to my grandmother recently. Telling her what I do and what we're doing and she said you know you're making history and it's it's just somewhere. Don't take about that it's true. Welcome back to small steps giant leaps a NASA apple knowledge services podcast at taps into project experiences to share best practices lessons learned and novel ideas. I'm Tina nunnelee. The countdown to launch America is on as preparations continue for the first launch of American astronauts on an American rocket from American soil. Since twenty eleven NASA astronauts Bob Banken and Doug Hurley will fly on this space x crew dragon spacecraft for the Demo to mission which is scheduled to lift off may twenty seventh for an extended. Stay at the International Space Station today. On the podcast joined by the three NASA chief engineers on the commercial crew program. We'll discuss key takeaways from the work so far the technically diverse team. That's making this happen. Benefits of shared accountability and much more. Let's start with brief introductions? Good morning this is Stephen Sullivan. On the commercial crew. Chief Engineer for the program with NASA for thirty four years so been doing Working with commercial crew for the last ten from the beginning when we was a a concept Worked our way through the requirements phase. All the way up into flight high. And I'm Chris Lugo Service the Commercial Crew Program spacecraft Chief Engineer. I'm also Sullivan's deputy of did NASA Johnson Space Center. Houston for about thirty years. Now Good Morning. I'm Deborah Crane on the commercial crew program chief engineer for the launch vehicles and I come from a propulsion engineering background and I worked shuttle at Kennedy Space Center. And I've been at Marshall Space Flight Center for thirteen years. Welcome to all of you. We are so glad to have you on the podcast today with launch fast approaching. What's getting most of your attention? I'll start off with that one As we get closer and closer to actually flying launching crew and as you integrate hardware in preparation for that flight you do incur. Some non conform. Mrs Is just a natural part of the whole process and that requires your assessment for everything that happens to make sure that you are safe to either to us as is need to do something to correct that and also as we go forward there are other flights that are going on with vehicles that are similar to ours that are going to be using for the upcoming crude flight and so we do have to assess any anomalies that occur during testing in preparation for that flight or any anomalies that occur during flight and we have to. I suppose to make sure that there is no crossover application to our vehicles. And if there is how do we mitigate that concern so that is definitely getting our attention right now as you kind of get on the fast track towards that launch things do happen that require your assessment Pretty much on a daily basis things could occur so it does keep us busy. I think a primary Play THAT WE'RE DOING. Us closing out towards launches in the verification space is the evidence or substantiation that the design met the requirements that NASA completing all the independent assessment and verification independent modeling. So where reclosing it out in. A single verification can be over one hundred thousand pages of evidence or analysis backs up a design so We're going through an army of engineers. Smaller managers are going through all the Fairfax that the providers SPACEX has given us. And we're just checking. Make sure that all the evidence is another key factor. We have to look at is all the individual risk. We try to close out the risk or eliminate the risk wherever possible. But that's not always possible so there. There are some risks that the program has to accept in engineering team builds. A story with light rationale brings that forward in our spend a lot of time getting those final risk closed out or at least accepted for this flight and then another key aspect is to step back and look at all the risk. We've accepted over the years. In what is the aggregate risk? Did we an accepting risk in one area. Did we create a stacked risk in another area? And so it's important to step back and understand that a roles and responsibilities different with the commercial crew program I think the roles and responsibilities are to Samaan refer crew. It's split up a little bit differently than the traditional NASA programs so the shared assurance model. There's a tremendous trust in partnership. With both bombs SPACEX Boeing. So this design. They truly own this design. This is all their work or really checking Making sure they're in compliance with what we would expect for requirements. So there's a a tremendous stress. Were looking for the same commitment to flight crew safety that would be on a traditional NASA program making sure that human spaceflight cultures instilled into into all aspects of the manufacturing the processing and the clothes out of the design so Let's see the rosenstone ability very close down uniform an perspective week. We practiced a risk based approach. I think that's been traditionally done on most programs too so I'm really focusing on this critical items that could cause a loss of a crew or causa catastrophic failure so really digging deep to try look at the designs in the assessments and try to give the program management the best read on where we take. The risk is of the design so we put a lot of feedback into Design reviews we try to show areas of non-compliance early. So we can try to get to design augmented or corrected and in the direction that we want to go and I want to add to as chief engineer I think our roles and responsibility really has not changed because we still work through technical issues with engineering teams in we find resolutions or assessment and as Chris mentioned earlier the the risk in the aggregate risk. Susan engineer we still have to assess the technical risk in. What does that mean how we communicate that to the program into management one of the challenges that we have had? That's a little bit different is that we've got existing vehicle safe of the launch vehicles. We've got existing designs that we are assessing against NASA design and construction standards so that has been a challenge because rather than having those standards that you design to were saying how existing design fits within those pre existing standards and then our commercial providers also have put together what we're calling their alternate standards so they take our requirements and how they propose to meet the intent of those requirements and then our team has to suggest that so. That's that's a little bit different than what we've technically done. Or as far sequentially done relative to those standards and we've got a diverse team. We've got a diverse team of technical experts that must assess all of those standards against you got Materials and processes. You've got your safety factors. You got your mechanisms avionics and software. So you've got quite a technical divers team that has to assess existing designs or even be able to provide some of their influence into what needs to be modified to those designs. What are your thoughts on the approach? That's been taken with commercial crew. And how it compares or contrasts with the traditional approach. Yes one of the one of the biggest differences is the small footprint on the NASA side traditionally neces- teams were much larger with an oversight role. And now we have more of an insight. Roller were digging into the partners. Getting an understanding of how they're operating But not same same type of role that we've had in the past so with that small footprint are really relying on that shared assurance model. But what we've seen as as the program progressed. Is that although that plan to have that initial small footprint was out there. The overall NASA management team had different expectations than that original plan. And that's been a challenge as we get closer to launch thinking that we've had a similar large footprint trying to dig into these partners that we haven't had overall has been a challenge to get the management team to understand and in addition to that crew program. We use hazard reports so as a process to ensure that we've got risk mitigation efforts that they're implemented and that we've got proper controls in place to minimize those hazards that have been identified for for all the various systems of our vehicles as well as operation of the vehicles. So that's a little different approach and we've had hazards before but we use that to leverage to ensure we put proper controls and design maybe modifications in place to address those hazards with commercial partners. They both have very unique ways to approach the design and development so they challenged the requirements. A little bit more. They wouldn't understand the basis where they were derived and why they're levied on them and so it was a little bit of more challenging on the requirements side. They bright embrace new technology or new non-traditional purchase in their designs across the board. And that's actually forced kind of NASA pool experts from across the agency in the different NASA. Saturday centers I think there's more utilization of what we call the Engineering Safety Center the NFC. So it's a group of technical fellows that are disciplined experts and it's really forced to sue actually additional testing your understanding of the physics. That's going on or chemistry of a new approach. Or maybe a methodology that the partners using so So in a lot of places use a non kind of non traditional spaceflight things that we haven't had experience with so in the end of the day I think It ends up being the traditional approach. So I think all that evidence were talking to beginning on vacations as under hundreds thousands of pages of substantiation ends up getting you there to design clothes out ensuring that the design has done correct. What are some of the key lessons learned so far key lessons learned? There's so many big and hours on key lessons learned so you know if I was giving advice to someone kind of falling on in a similar type of program leading the NASA standards In the beginning Headquarters lead all the NASA standards in what they call meets the intent so traditionally we go with that meets standard like after meet us specific NASA standard but meets. The intent causes you to have a dialogue with the provider early on to try to figure out expectations. So there's been cases where There's things in our standards are guidelines that are challenging in their rightly challenge. Some of them have been actually found to be an error. So things that were done in the seventies testing that was done in the seventies or eighties. And now you're looking back at and some things are actually done wrong. So getting those NASA standards on meet Santana getting that dialogue across design team is super important. I think the second thing early on in the in the design phase is getting we call season two engineers these NASA engineers that have a lot of experience and I'm hands on type of design. You know they're they're very Knowledgeable disciplined they do their own analysis and work in. India can have a dialogue. That's based in data. In fact on the design our shortcomings are other ways of doing the design so kinder- seasoned engineers into the partner. Getting them as close as you can't responsible engineer doing. The design has big benefit at the end. I think probably the third biggest lesson learned is don't design something that you can't analyze. There's a lot of ways to do any of the purchase in spaceflight type designs. But if you don't really have a way of analyzing it really forces you into a lot of empirical testing so Making sure that you when you're you look at how you're going to close out and qualified that design type of Analysis needs to be put into it. If you can't answer a lot of the basic questions at the beginning is GonNa Force you into a very expensive lengthy test program that prove out that design Steve Harada key points there. specially with requirements and verification development. It's really key to to understand as early as you can. And if there's any disconnects partners interpretation of the requirements that we did spend a lot of time trying to get that clear up front always found as the designs matured that how we thought they were going to ply the pirates and how the requirements actually implemented run always the same getting those disconnects resolved later resulted challenges. Since so if you can try and make sure that covered in especially the verification aspects of it early at a really help another key thing to think about is with what the new partners are encouraging them to expand the way. We're doing business changes the way we're doing business in so there are some things that are unique to human spaceflight in. It's important to pay attention to how that new technology is being used or even if it's an existing system design tuck technology that may be being used different than it was in the past like higher operating pressures ramp rates than previous experience. Those are key areas the pit attention to make sure that you really understand really qualify. That really qualified. That has the systems mature. Another thing to pay attention to how the vehicles operated versus maybe helps qualified. You make sure that we're not getting outside of those limits and I think Stephen Kristof touched on a lot of what I'm going to bring up. But as far as how NASA how we assess adaptive designs in vehicles versus Accepting design is an already established design. And yet we've got with. It's already mentioned we've got a small team and a lot of our experts in different areas are working both vehicles so I think as far as lessons learned in and as far as timelines coming up to as we're getting ready for launch that we've got A small team. That's working very hard. They're very dedicated but they're working on both vehicles somewhat in a way song painlessly. So we've got to be cognizant of data as we go forward as a lesson learned to make sure that we do have a team that is aligned with the agency's goals and also that's aligned technically and also that we've got an allocation how we how a utilize their efforts strategically as we go forward. Have you felt a different sense of responsibility? Working with this new model for human spaceflight? I'd stay to some extent. I feel like we have more responsibility because we have such a smaller team. So they're more or people have to more on their shoulders. I guess good way to said I have to agree with Chris. I think it's a greater responsibility again. Work in two different commercial partners Simultaneously with different designs with a small team and also the fact that we are getting ready to launch. Astronauts against that responsibility is huge. And it's been a long time coming that we have this opportunity to do so so I do think that we have a greater responsibility right now. Not only from a NASA agency perspective but from the American public perspective. Other unique aspect of the commercial partnership is that unlike previous designs for NASA on Vehicle. The partners own the vehicle in so we have to be aware of the proprietary nature of these commercial designs. And that that does put more challenges on the team. Both in collaboration and how we share the data. That has been something that we've had learned to deal with are there benefits of shared accountability? That we haven't highlighted. I think shared accountability. You kind of gives you the opportunity kind of the share. The culture at that that NASA has been really traditionally been doing since the Mercury Apollo Shovel said allows you to spread that culture of Of digging deep on the designs understanding your your your limits in your qualifications and in all the physics going onto the design so I think it allows to kind of the the spread that culture a little deeper across the commercial sector so I think this shared accountability model has worked. I think Both partners have full accountability and responsibility for their designs. And then Nassar's add a high level of insight into every aspect of this designed insurer Flight Crew Safety. I think there has been a cultural shift within NASA Tutu. Adopt this approach. I think we've found ways to make it efficient. I think also. I think it's good to question. The requirements and to really assess their applicable and also to be able to to identify efficiencies in our approach and develop may be new methods to our approach and strategies and to be able to accommodate working with the smaller team and still try to make that progress. So definitely I think there have been benefits to this and I know other programs are looking at us as far as okay. What did you do? How did you accomplish this? What lessons fabu learn from this approach that we can apply in the future? Also think it's helped us. Maybe break down. Some of the walls within NASA so as a young engineer growing up in the Engineering Organization. I didn't have a lot of interaction with the operations teams and the estimate teams feel like in this year accountability approach. We've become this a team that you have to work together. We're counting on each other to do our part together as we don't have the people to do by ourselves. Let's talk more about the team. Chris how would you describe the team dynamics of the commercial crew program? Now what I'd like to tell people is I get to work with world experts everyday. Were really working with a great team of been impressed with NASA and the partners. How smart the team is. It's it's incredible. Amount of expertise said is out there that we're able to draw on an unfortunate every day to work with a team had been so diligent in tracking down all the issues burning down risk can the dedication. They've had to get us to where we are. Today is incredible. I have to add to what Chris did say about the dedicated team. And they are very excited Both NASA team and our commercial partners. You can feel that excitement that they are getting ready to do something new within the space program so it it's it's it's a great environment to be working in and I've had some of my team members say. This is the best team that I've ever worked for because of that excitement and because of what they're they're looking forward to. The team works great together and we have seen how our teams have had direct influences on each other in a positive way. So it's it's an awesome environment to be working in and it's a great team to work working with Steve. Your thoughts on working with this team with both the partner. And the NASA teams have a very dedicated workforce that works many late hours going through the designs and try and influence Kinda dot com and then also going into substantiate and getting the right evidence for closure of these designs so we can have a safe flight for their group coming up so I think we have a world class team so I'm really appreciate all the hard work of the NASA teams on its spread across probably four or five centers in really appreciate them all hours that have been put into a commercial crew and this team has faced some challenges along the way some external challenges right. We've actually whether two different hurricanes right. I think it's three now with a major flood in Houston. So we've had cases where on center was such shutdown and the other center was still operating. We've had at least two government shutdowns and now the the Cova Isolation so IT'S BEEN INCREDIBLE. How the team has been able to weather all that and bring in fact too that we are multi-centre. Now you've got US three on this podcast worth three different centers so how we integrate the communication amongst all. That has been a challenge. But we've also been able to adapt to that. So I think that says a lot to the determination of the team and and the program to to make all this work and how and also the creativity how we address these challenges and how we can still work through all these also been great getting to know the first crew They're not just anonymous astronauts. They're not just. Co workers are often friends Some of the first cruise in my scout troop. And so it's just. It's nice to have that connection. Could add to the crew the first crew Bob and Doug. They've been at the commercial providers for meetings. They visited the centers. So there's more of a personal connection to the crew and the crew going to know the team the team getting to know the crew so I think that when you go back to the responsibility side of it. We know the people that were going to be launching More on a personal basis. You know have a beer with them or go out. Have a celebration with them. So there's lots of opportunities to interact directly with. The astronaut crew has technical diversity. Bene- a difference maker yet technical diversity. We can't throw that term around a little bit so so especially in the beginning of commercial crew a very small team of folks trying to get into the designs work with the the both partners and understanding which way they're are going to go so you had to go across the center and grab the wherever you can get the resource and you would pick the best person for the job that would represent NASA. Are that discipline to the partner so can have to kind of earn your way a little bit in on on your technical capability yet to show that the experience and the designs and you can come in with data numbers in analysis approach. So you have to try to convince them that technical divers he that willingness to go across the centers to go pull in Experts it could be a spacecraft Designer out at Marshall for propulsion helping the JC guys on the space craft side. It could come in from different angles could be bringing in the NFC folks into the into their with tech disciplines but having that technical diversity the ability to go across the centers in get the right technical expert at the right time. The other part is when you bring together when you have a problem and you bring a diverse group of folks. Different backgrounds perhaps perhaps have been launching expendable rockets for thirty years or perhaps have been doing ground systems. Would you bring them together? And you start talking the technical problem that you deal with mid you get a lot more solutions you get a lot more diverse approaches on how you might tackle that problem so think technical divers. She's been super key to Commercial Cruise Success on the NASA team and trying to work your way through the problems. I agree with Steve and also to add a technical diversity even within NASA. You've got your NASA civil servants in your contractors that have worked many different programs. No scientific programs human rated program so to bring their perspectives. I think is key to solving some of these technical issues that we are dealing with and not only NASA but within our commercial providers as well. They have different approaches to technical solution. So I think it's healthy to be able to try to solve a problem and you bring in different approaches and then you're able to learn from each other and you assess those approaches and you come to think a better solution in the long run so definitely technical diversity is key and different perspectives different backgrounds different strategies and approaches to. I think is something that you want to encourage in any program to be able to look at other options of how you can approach a solution. How have the commercial crew partners transformed the way we do? Business from the commercial crew provider's perspective. They own their vehicles and we have input into their design and their operations. So it's a little different than NASA owning having a contract own vehicles so we work more and collaborative environment and we look more at how we can be efficient with the people that we have to support the commercial crew providers. I agree with Debra so I I think this point right now it feels like a traditional NASA a Design clothes out really going through hours and hours of verifications reviews of analysis reclosing outer independent assessments and are independent modeling. That was done and so so right. Now it's fair feeling very traditional so we're checking our procedures. Were going down our fault detection. Isolation recovery aspects of the design. So at this point. It's feeling like a traditional NASA design. I want to add something to Steve coz ultimately we are looking at safety and that's the ultimate goal from both the NASA their commercial providers is we want to ensure their vehicles are safe a launch vehicles and space crafts so we can transport crew. What would you say is the biggest takeaway from the work? So far I would say the biggest takeaway from the work so far is both space x team. And the NASA team they're very excited the launch crew from US soil with an American spacecraft. I think We can definitely see the passion on on both sides of or human spaceflight and I see a strong commitment to flight crew safety and ensuring that Duggan Bob get a a great ride going up and down to isis and to add onto that to pride the entire team the NASA and the commercial provider. We're all very proud to be working this program and to be looking towards the goals of NASA and the United States to be able to launch astronauts again. So everybody's just very proud. I'm very proud to be working with this. Very dedicated and very talented team on the NASA side and the commercial provider was talking to my grandmother recently. In telling you what I do and what we're doing and she said you know you're making history in Don't think about but it's true and I think a big takeaway is this. These two partners both spacex Boeing. They are having the First Commercial Sector Uman rated spacecraft Contra vehicle design so this is new territory hopefully it will enable old bit. More growth in the market may be immune spaceflight. I'd branch out beyond the government's very hopeful that this commercial sector will start taking off. This has been so much fun and so interesting. Thank you to all three of you for joining us today. On the PODCAST. Thank you Deana. Thank you always crude. Step back and take about the cool stuff we're doing. You can learn more about the cool stuff. Nasa and its commercial partners doing via links on our website at apple dot NASA dot Gov Slash podcast. Steve Chris and Deborah's BIOS and a show transcripts are also available on the site. If you haven't already subscribe to the PODCAST. We invite you to take a moment to do that. And please share the podcast with your friends and colleagues as always listening to small steps giant leaps.

NASA partner NASA Steve Chris NASA Johnson Space Center Commercial Crew Program engineer Chief Engineer Steve Houston Marshall Space Flight Center Deborah Crane Duggan Bob Kennedy Space Center International Space Station apple America Stephen Sullivan Tina nunnelee Chris Lugo
Pathways

Houston We Have a Podcast

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Pathways

"Houston. We have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA. Johnson Space Center episode Eighty-six pathways. Gary Jordan, your host today on this podcast. We bring in the experts NASA, scientists engineers and astronauts, also at you know, the coolest information about what's going on right here at NASA. But experts have to start somewhere a lot of experts spent their whole careers. Here's coming in his students landing the fulltime offer and learning side by side with veterans until they themselves become the experts. So today, we're talking about a program near and dear to my heart the pathways internship program near and dear to me because I was once a pathways intern no expert, though, I'm getting there at a high level. This is a program where you are employed by NASA directly as a student you spend a few semesters maybe few summers or wha- one or more centers across the US. And then if you prove yourself you'll into full-time gig with NASA. So today we're talking with Jonathan Abbari and Alexis Vance Jonathan runs the show as the program manager for the pathways program. He himself was once a co-op. Pathways intern which used to be co ops. We'll get into that. But Alexis Vance is currently an intern in the crew and thermal systems division. She has a pretty good perspective on what it's like to be a student and Anassa intern now in two thousand nineteen so with no further delay. Let's go right ahead to our talk with Mr Jonathan Abbari and miss Alexis fans. Enjoy. County. We have. Jonathan alexis. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today to talk about the pathways, internships, something very near and dear to my heart. Yeah. Thanks for having us. All right. So what's nice about this episode is we were all or now currently are pathways interns at some point in our lives. So let's start with just where we came from. You know, I think. It's important to sort of go back and say, you know, there's there's certain minimum requirements that you can have to to get into the pathways internship. But you know, I think we all have sort of a unique story not everyone is the same so Jonathan where did you come from? Sure. So so my journey with NASA began actually whenever I was in high school. I went to a local high school in the Houston area and one of the opportunities that was available was like a high school internship with NASA were I my senior year of high school. I went to school for the morning and then for four hours in the afternoon, I actually came to GNC to to support the mission out here. And so it was a really great experience. After that. I actually ended up moving into the college version of that program. And then from there applied to the pathways internship program. And was fortunately accepted for that. And tried out a few different organizations during that stint and. Ultimately was given a fulltime offer for employment upon graduation from my undergrad degree. So it's been a really really cool were really cool road. The the pipeline of the student programs has been really exceptional as well for me. And and that's what's been really kind of cool seeing that that is something that continues to this day with the outreach programs that NASA Johnson Space Center offers to the country really helps us in sourcing an applicant pool that that builds in a group that's ready to do the mission. That's that's available for us here JSE. That's awesome. So so you were lucky enough to be local like you you were you grew up in Houston. Correct. So how did you said you went to a high school program just within highschool? How'd you hear about it was a friends or just a pamphlet? It was actually through one of my teachers nice. Yeah. That seems to be that seems to be a good way to get in. Alexis you were the same way. Right. You got to teach your actually recommend like all you should do this. Yes. And actually, a NASA employees themselves who knew about the program reached out to me on recommended that I apply for it. Yeah. Like, what was it? You know, you just this was not in school though. Right. This was a program. No, yes. This is this is not through school. This was kind of an outside activity that I was participating in. So my NASA journey didn't actually start until I was in college and my freshman year. I got involved in a lot of aerospace research my school and ended up joining a design team for a NASA -cation projects challenge called Mike g next and every year, they put out these design challenges and ask college students to design tools for spacewalks. And I got involved the competition team or guests a challenge team, my freshman year, and I led the team my sophomore year and through that they asked me to apply for the program. We get to work with divers in the NBL. And also a few other NASA engineers, that's how I became familiar with it. Nice. So what made you interested in airspace front? Just was a plane. Was it space so studying chemical engineering? Being aerospace isn't the traditional route. My older brother is an air force academy graduate and is served in the air force. And so that kind of piqued my interest at first, but really of always kind of had a fascination with planes and more specifically with NASA spaceflight. Yeah. It's just an interesting thing overall. But then you you go into those challenges. Right. And you get to really dive into the not just studying the material in reading, it's it's actually doing it's building stuff and testing it out. That's always pretty cool. Right. Yeah. I always love a good engineering jolly typically when you take away gravity everything. It's a lot harder. Yes. Absolutely. We have ways to do that here too. Cool programs with it's it's I think it's the what's it called air bearing floor or something like that. They like pump air it's like hockey table pretty much an air hockey table, but they pump air through a floor and basically simulate microgravity in a two D environment. Because you can't really is hard to do simulate that sort of thing on earth, which is one g everywhere. But it's pretty cool. Jonathon, you were were you under nearing as well. Or are you more business side? Actually, I was on the business side. So I was going to university of Houston studying business administration. And so in that I actually rotated to more of our business focused organizations here on site as a pathway intern started off in the procurement organization, and then I moved over to working in public affairs organization a good one for a summer. Yeah. That was super fun. And then I also went to the office of our chief financial officer, and then also human resources. Okay. So you that was. Very diverse sort of tour. So that's that's actually part of the of the co-op program pathways internship program, which we can get into. But this is it it's not a one time deal. You don't just like go check out one area. And then peace out the pathways internship is a rotational program. So you go to NASA in one area, come back another semester or summer and your checking on multiple things. So why did you want to do something so diverse? Why'd you go to all these different actors. You know, some of my mentors had mentioned to me that now is the time to kind of try out a lot of different things and really try to find your dream job. So I was really fortunate that that that's how the program was designed, and it gave me a chance to try out different organizations, experienced different organizational cultures different organizational processes so that at the end of the day whenever I got close to graduation. I was in a place where I could confidently accept a full time position in a place where I knew that I was gonna love. Okay. That's pretty important because you know, you can you could probably make a good guess on where you want to be. But this is sort of like a trial. You get to you get the sample. It's like going to an ice cream store. But for jobs where you sample. You could say that. That's exactly right, especially in engineering or flight ops. When you when you come in as an engineering student. There's so many opportunities in NASA that you don't even know about and by rotating, it really helps you find the best fit. You can be happy with which to are you on right now. I'm on my I work tour. Okay. I'm in the engineering directorate, Oregon crude thermal systems and active thermal systems is that so crew in thermal systems is the individuals who will decide our space suits designed spacewalk tools, and they also do our compete regulation within station and a lot of the other vehicles. So is it mostly designing is mostly testing is it mostly paperwork. So I really like my branch that I'm in right now because we do a lot of designing and testing great now. Yeah. The cool stuff right now. I work on a flight project that we are hoping to fly on station in two years. And so what we do right now is. A lot of designing test doing the test setup and actually building art test stand, and then conducting it figuring out what changes we need to make. So that's pretty fun from an intern perspective because you're not like when you think about an internship, you can kind of get unlucky and just get coffee, or or, you know, they don't give you enough work or something. But it sounds like they're just they're putting you into the mix of things they're they're giving you a good experience. That's exactly right. We have a lot of work to do especially with sort of the new missions. That have been announced with our goal of going to the moon now using that to go on to Mars. There's so much work to do that. I don't think it ever asked me to go get coffee. There's a lot to be done in a lot of hands on work. And so I really liked the fact that I get the opportunity to practice those skills, especially in school developing those technical skills. I didn't have as much of an opportunity to do that. So I've had to do a lot of of learning on the job here. And I will say what I hear from students in general is that that's their number one biggest surprise whenever. They join NASA is I didn't realize I was going to be given so much responsibility. And and we do have a lot of a lot of really cool meaningful projects that students are assigned. And I mean, these are these are projects that might be going up in flight. And right, but the really cool thing is, you know, with all that responsibility. We also have a large support network that are there for the students. So each student is assigned a mentor, and maybe a few mentors for various projects. So that they can make sure that they are successful in the in the work that they're given. Seems like this mentor. Ship thing is a common theme here because it seems like you just just getting into the program for both of you. It was someone recommending the program to you is someone saying this is something you should do. And you taking them as a mentor and their advice and saying, yes, I'm going to pursue this. There seems to be a pretty important part not only of just getting here. But then once you're here to maintain those sort of relationships is there a mentor once you're here. Yes. So Alexis you could probably talk about the mentors that you've had so far. Oh, you have a mentor ideal I have several. So when we are assigned to our organization we receive a mentor in the organization mine is higher up in branch management. So for each of the projects that I work on also kind of mentor in those projects really anyone in the branch. You'll be happy to take you on. Teach you everything they know. So there's kind of an unlimited supply of mentors. But having a couple has really helped me learn not only what we do at NASA. But what we do we need to. Organizations in what my career might look like Longtre because they've had the experience a lot of them have been previous members of the intern program where before when it was the co-op program. So they know what it's like, they know what rotating is like, and they often have a lot of connections and other places and NASA, I find that a lot especially the folks who have been through the program turn into a fulltime. They're the ones who are most passionate about being. I know what it's like to be that pathways intern. I'm going to make sure that intern has the best experience possible. I could see that across the board. You said, you're you're an engineering. I'm sure you know, that you're not you're not here alone. Right. There's there's a decent sized group here for this semester. How many how many students are here right now. Sure. So so this spring we have about sixty students that are coming from all across the country to work here for this spring semester in the summertime that number will double, and, you know, we'll get over one hundred folks that are going to be here as pathways interns. And then in the fall time frame, it's it'll go back to. Sixty. How are you guys? I guess close to sixty sixty cops. Yes. So we had a bit of a unique experience that most cops don't get in that at the start when we were supposed to start our term. It was still furlough. So we had about two weeks where we got to kind of bond. We got a lot of extra bonding time one of a couple of the interns. We went on a trip to one of the national parks in that time. So we started out having experienced the other. But yeah, I'm close to many of the interns. We all have committees that we serve on both professional and social and they're a couple of those video committee, which I'm sure you're familiar with. And we spent a lot of time outside at work working on those projects, there's a really rich intern culture in a lot of traditions in history that kind of brings us together go through that's a big part of it. Yeah. I mean, you're definitely integrated into the work. I could say that like, I I I can definitely speak to that. Whenever I was here. I was I was part of everything that my mentor was a part of like Gary come along, you know, in every organization that I was a part of. And and like you're saying I mean, I'm actually kind of jealous that you had that much bonding time right up front where it was just like what what's, you know, all get together and do stuff together. That's awesome. And that's one thing. That's great about. Intern culture is is when when you're here. I mean, I feel like it is a strong group. I forget how many was in my first class. I think about fifty but we all hang out. It was it was fantastic. And that's how the program is designed as everybody starts on the same day with orientational and the kind of go through that as a as a cohort. And so what you see from semester to semester is a group of students that are coming from all sorts of places down to Houston where they don't have any homework. So nice nights and weekends. I mean, they're doing road trips exploring the Houston area exploring, you know, Texas and. And just having a lot of fun together. I find that that actually you end up building a strong relationship with Texas and with with coming here knowing that all your friends are going to be here that you're going to have a friend base. Because a lot of when you're talking about students coming in. It's not it's not all like you Jonathan where you were already in the Houston area. And let's just go down the street. I'm not exactly sure where in the Houston area, you're from, but I came from Pennsylvania. So I had to leave a lot behind. I am my road trip to get here was about twenty four hours. It was we we made a thing out of it. But it was really fun. But I knew when I was coming here fulltime accepting the full time position was that much easier because we had explored a lot of Houston because I knew I was having a refrain creep here. I'm sure you you're kind of thinking the same thing Lexus, right? When you first come here, especially if you're not from Houston you off millions of Texas. It's a lot of like it's a lot similar to your freshman year in college that you don't know anyone you're kind of scared. The Johnson Space Center is a is a big place, and I can be overwhelming if you. Don't have a group or friends to support you in that. But yeah, we've definitely bonded a lot. We do go on some road trips. There's a group of interns that drove to see the Cretan launch a couple of weeks ago. Nice. We really become more of a close knit community. It's definitely made the transition to kind of moving and living in a new place. A lot easier. And I think that makes a pretty again, not only just a bond, but a strong bond with with coming here. Because I think I mean on the Jonathan if you know the statistics, but I know just personally anecdotally, a lot of my friends, we're here for a long haul. You know, where we're here, and we're going to stay here because of the community. Yeah. That's one of the really cool things about the program is that it's our primary mechanism for fulltime hiring so impermanent hiring about fifty percent of our total centers. Hiring comes from pathways conversions to full-time and our offer rate for the pathways in terms that are graduating each year are between ninety to ninety five percent annually. And so it's a really good statistic for us because the folks that are coming into the program, they are getting jobs upon graduation, and they're getting jobs in places that they're going to want to stay in for for years to come. You know, part of that is due to the fact that they're bonding with each other another big pieces. That they're kind of bonding with Jay ac- in general. I mean, so many opportunities for the students to to kind of lift their heads up and see what is available across JSE. In addition to the rotations. We do have tours of different facilities that the students can go on. We have different lectures that the students can attend where the here from current managers and astronauts and just NASA legends, and those kinds of folks and Alexis, I think you're actually working on that committee, correct? I'm on the toys and lectures committee. It's one of our professional developed committees that the interns have. So I was able to schedule a couple of tours. We're going to do tour of the Aries lab where they process the moon rocks. And we also have a lot of great lectures, come in because a lot of the senior level staff and also several prominent figures at NASA were also wants members of the intern program. So they really love giving back I will to reach out to ginger Kerrick talk her before as well as gene Kranz he'll be coming to speak to us next week. So we're all very excited. Very cool. Yeah. I've had ginger Kerrick on the podcast before she is. She is a wonderful person. And and I think I went to everyone her lectures when I when I was a student. I I was I was here for three tours like like most like most students, and I think I went every single year because she's just a fascinating person. And again, those people can inspire you not just ginger, but like everyone that that gets up there. Everyone has a different story. A different unique perspective. And it's it's it's amazing. I think we also had Chris craft one year, which was absolutely fascinating. We had gene Kranz as well. I kind of wanted to backtrack a little bit because before beginning to the nitty gritties of just what the pathways internship is all about you were talking about, you know, we're talking about fifty students. You're talking about a turnover of ninety five percent of the students that come that are offered the fulltime job take it. And and that's that's huge. But I think a lot of that is because of the students themselves. It's very selective process. Healing you only get a couple at a time a couple dozen shirt. But but they're they're off. Eighty talented people. So if you are looking for someone to say, yes, I'm going to offer you a pathways internship here at NASA. What are you looking for in a student? That's a really good question. And you're right. It's it's a highly competitive process. We have we have announcements that are open twice a year. And in those announcements, we get thousands of applicastions that come through, you know, each each cycle in the spring and the fall were were whittling that down to about forty five students that were selecting. So it it definitely gets very competitive. And I get that question a lot, you know, what are some of the things that set me apart from the rest of the candidate pool. And you know, the answer probably isn't as surprising as you might think, you know, here at NASA we rely on on every single employee to contribute as offensively as they can to make the mission happen. And so, you know, teamwork is something that's really important to us. We we look for folks that can work. Well in teams, we look for folks that are well rounded have leadership capabilities. You know, we we want folks that have the ability to set goals and chief them as an intern. There's there's also a really important piece in being willing to learn there. I mean there there's a lot of stuff that that you will be learning as an intern. And so being able to kind of put yourself in a learning mode is really really important, and you can do that in a lot of different ways. You know, we don't just focus on technical excellence, which is also another big piece of of what we need here. But we we ensure that we have a well rounded student altogether. So getting experiences through extracurriculars through other part time jobs through school projects, you know, class projects and things like that. That's really what I see where I see student shine in and how they kind of sell themselves in the abilities that they possess. Best and how they would make how they would fit with NASA. Okay. Yeah. Always, you know, taking on taking on new responsibilities willing to learn new things and explore kind of expand their knowledge. I definitely feel good about myself Alexis, you have to feel good just based on that description right there because you guess what? So tell me what you did before before you came to NASA to sort of do exactly what Jonathan was saying. Well, outside of the NASA program that I participated in. I was very active in the leadership in my university. I was involved in our student Senate student council in order to gain those non technical more interpersonal and communication skills. Kind of helped me to learn teamwork and technical wise I participated in several research programs. I'm a chemical engineering student, but I worked primarily in aerospace research got to work with several professors university kind of to diversify. My skills. So I think the combination of those really helps and even before college, I got a lot of presentational skills interview skills through speech and debate back in my high school, and that is one of the skills that you don't know who's going to be incredibly important to you as you go on. But the pathways interview scary to be honest and getting practice in that was very helpful. And being able to communicate confidently very important skills. Are remember taking the call or for or scheduling, the call for the pathways interview? I think it was a couple rounds. But I remember pacing around my apartment while I was on the phone, and you know, I've been doing the same thing at the time was was looking up different interview skills. And I remember, you know, I was I was talking you. Yes. I think I think it was you and now might have been Brian Grant actually who interviewed me, but and was asking me a couple of questions, and I gave my answer in the night. Just heard silence. I was like, okay. So I so I kept talking, and then I heard silence as I or have them like I'm gonna keep talking. So I just did that. And then eventually they jumped in and said, thank you very much. You know, if we're if we're if you hear silence after your answer, we're just we're just writing some notes down. I'm like oh, thank God. I exactly the I know the feeling I just remember being so nervous. Just like all that wasn't good enough. I need to I need to keep talking Anita. Give them more examples stuff like that. And what we try to do in. The interview process is help your best to come out. And we we don't want the nerves to affect who you really are as a person. Right. And what I will say is that one of the things that will come out regardless is your passion for NASA. And that's something that you can't really fake. That's something. That's really really important to us because you know, the destination might be, you know, the moon today Mars in a few years. But who knows where we might go, you know, decades from now and that passion for what we do is going to be really really important as we continue to kind of unfold what the future of NASA looks like for years to come is a fantastic mission. It's it's one that. I'm Devon passionate about getting behind. You know, put traveling into space. That is awesome. Yes. I'm here. Let's do this before for the pathways internship, though. Let's let's kinda get into the nitty gritty. So so what's it all about? I guess we'll start with it transition to the pathways program. We've been kind of interchanging here just in this conversation between pathways and co op I think it was in the middle of that transition when I came on. I think it was just like the very first year of pathways in two thousand twelve right? Sure. So the this program dates back to the sixties where it was known as the co op program cooperative education program and most recently in twenty twelve the president actually created the pathways programs across all the federal government. So it kind of standardized the nomenclature pathways intern. So we transitioned from the word co op too now pathways in turn those are synonymous. But you still hear the word coop quite a bit. Because a lot of the folks that are fulltime now, actually. Came through that program as co ops. So, you know, old habits die hard. But, but yeah, so the pathways program whenever it was created actually covers three different programs as the intern component, which is for students. There's the recent graduate program, which is for individuals who have graduated within the past two years, and there's the presidential management fellows program, which is a program managed from our office of personnel management. Okay. So a lot of a lot of different programs. Okay. And then yeah, I know there's we work in our office two extra relations office we had the internship program as well. Dowling was. Yeah, that's a little bit different. But we don't have to get into that. We'll just talk about bath ways right now. So how about today, you know? What's what what does the pathways internship? Look like, let's say you you've done your interview, they say, yes, you got a fulltime job. Now, you're coming on. You know, what's what what are you in for? Yes. So what we do is. We place you for your first work tour in an organization that kind of aligns with your interests based on. The interview. And after that after that semester, you actually get to pick where you go for for future, work tours. So again, kind of that process of finding your dream job. Undergraduate students work minimum of three work tours, so three semesters. And so that could be two long semesters like a spring or a fall, and then one summer, and then on the business side undergraduates are are responsible for doing three work tours. They can do two summers instead of the two long semesters graduate students are also accepted into the program. They only have to to work to work towards before graduation. But we have both technical and nontechnical folks are technical folks comprise about seventy five percent of our total intern population in our business folks are about twenty five percent, okay. And hit a technical. Meaning that's your that's your stem sort of major scientists. That's your engineers said. Well, I guess you. You can go into more detail, what sorts of students student degrees. Are you looking for? That's a good question. So primarily we look for aerospace engineering or nautical engineering, mechanical engineering, computer, science, computer, engineering software engineering, but the list can go on. And sometimes we do see additional engineers as well. So like, Alexis your chemical engineering major. We we seek those majors as well as material science materials engineering and really the the basis for the degree requirements is is made on the hiring capability that we have at the entry level for those kinds of positions. So if your degree isn't listed there. It doesn't mean that we don't do that type of work. It just means at the entry level for this program, we're focusing in other areas, but I will say a lot of folks that do have the question, you know, my my degree wasn't listed on on that announcement. In USA jobs. I tell them. Hey, there are there are so many contractors out here that might possess the same type of degree that that you do, you know, they they also have internship programs as well that may allow you to to come to JC and work in supporting the mission in the same way that we do on the on the pathways intern side. Okay. So there's more opportunities just besides two pathways inch. If you want to work at NASA. But there's the pathways has you can look at these majors. You said USA jobs. Yes. So we we use USA jobs as our exclusive vehicle for accepting applications what you can actually do now is go into USA jobs dot gov. You can set up your profile and then build your resume there. And you can actually set up an alert that will notify you when our positions open up, and what I will say is that our our announcements do have cutoffs. So because we received thousands of applicants, you know through throughout. That process we institute off. So that once a certain number of applications have been received that announcement actually closes at ten fifty nine central time PM that evening. And so what I tell students is in order to guarantee that your application will be received by the cutoff apply that first day to make sure. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, it's it's an online process, and it's it's it is a few months that they're open that the opportunities is open for for USA jobs. Oh, actually, it's we usually reach all of our cutoffs the very first day that the announcements open. So you know in one day, we will get two thousand advocation 's. Okay. So so, yeah, that's why I think it's really important to go ahead and be proactive in setting up the alert that will notify you whenever those positions become available. But I will give you a little bit of insider information, we typically we typically have our postings open up in. Early February and early September every year. Okay. Block those off on your calendar. When did you apply I went through the application process about a year ago? So last spring and very much what Jonathan was talking about in applying on the first day is important. So they'll normally release the announcement that they say the application will be open in x number of days or it will open up then. And once you you see that announcement you start putting together and building your resume Ingathering references and making sure everything about your application is correct. So that when it does open all you have to do is push sent and you've already applied. So I did that process last spring and then after learning about the pathways program and getting into the pathways program. I helped several of my friends apply at my university in the fall when they open knowing what the application was process, the knowing what the application process was like nice. Okay. Make friends. Yeah. I now have a friend who join me down. Who who can help you out with the process, and and I will say one word of advice also is to read those announcements in their entirety because each announcement is different. We typically have between, you know, four to six announcements that are open up in the February timeframe, and then in the September timeframe each announcements can have specific requirements. So one announcement might be focused where a requirement is that you are pursuing an aerospace engineering degree another announcement might be that you're pursuing a mechanical engineering degree. So make sure that you're applying to the announcement that matches your qualifications either based on degree or or the like another thing is because our program requires you to rotate for multiple work tours, and you have to alternate between going to school full time and working at a JC full-time. Your graduation date has to be no later or are no earlier than one year from the closing day of the announcement. And the reason for that is so that you can actually have enough time left in school to still be able to do. Those work tours that we were car that we require in our program. Okay. So you have to think about your graduation. You're I know I applied when I was a sophomore. I think my first semester of sophomore year. And then I was able to easily fit in three tours. I did the two summers. Like you were saying, but I I applied early. What what you're are you in? Now, I am in my junior year. I applied my sophomore year. And I'm actually not going to be at school for kind of a whole year spot space. I'm working this semester. I'm also working next semester. So that time building my tours in. Yeah. I think that's pretty standard right is isolated my graduation by semester. I think you said a year. So yeah, I think that's pretty standard. Worth it. Yeah. Absolutely. And you only have to have thirty semester hours under your belt at the time of the application in order to be eligible for the position one of the things that I will say is that if for some reason, you aren't selected for the first time, you apply I have heard so many stories of people applying multiple times, and then, you know, sometimes two three times sometimes more. And then, you know, maybe maybe getting it after that. Yeah. So if if NASA really is where you want to be, you know, continued to to apply and keep doing the things like you're saying, right? So we talked a little bit about going above and beyond. What you had to do. You were in whatever the student Senate. You said, yeah, you were in all these different kinds of extracurricular stuff, which I think is super important, but Jonathan bare minimum. What are you? What are you looking for to actually just even to just pass the first round of your we're going to look at this resume? Sure. So bare minimum. I the first thing is US citizenship. The next thing is that you have. To be a student so enrolled in an accredited etiquette educational institution. We're looking for folks that are pursuing a bachelor's degree or higher students have to be at least half time enrolled at the time of applicants and maintain in role meant the GPA requirement is a two point nine so that and again, this is just minimum requirements, and then there's the graduation date of no earlier than one year from the closing date of the announcement and then requirements for degrees. And those will vary based on the announcement that folks are applying to okay. All right. So so that's just that's just as get past the first round. But then you have to beat out the other two thousand applicants, and that's really tough, especially whenever all you're going based off of as a resume at that point. Right. So one of the things that I will say is when it comes to the USA jobs resume it's going to be a resume. Unlike the normal resume that you would probab-. Ably expect to to give at at any other company. What what we're looking for is a resume that showcases your experiences. So the the USA jobs resume allows you to write kind of a narrative about your story. You know, what kinds of experiences have you had in school, you know, in in work in an extracurricular 's and that gives you a chance to kind of tell us about you and in in a creative way. And so that's what we're kind of looking for one of the things that I tell students is to utilize the car method C A R. So any of your experiences talk about the the the challenge, which is the c- talk about the challenge that was in front of you talk about the action. That's the a that the action that you took in that situation. And then result is the are. So give the result show me what you're accomplishments were based on the actions that you took in that challenge. And that's a really great way to kind of showcase your abilities through the resume. One of the thing that I have seen folks do is is use whatever fields are available in the resume system to their advantage. So there's one spot that says additional information people have gotten so creative with that. Sometimes they list awards sometimes they list other kinds of interests that you know, that they've been a part of and sometimes those those things that I've seen in additional information section really kind of piqued my interest with. Wow, this person might be kind of that. Well, rounded person that we're looking for. Yeah. That's awesome. So that's that's not only to, you know, make it alarm and make sure you're one of the first ones applying, but to take your time and put your heart and soul into that application. Really? Right. You know, really try to make yourself unique. That's really it. That's what it sounds like make yourself unique make yourself look valuable like you when you when you come to NASA, you will provide value to nessa there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff that you can put into this resume. That's very interesting. Yeah. That application format especially putting in your resume isn't exactly what you think it would be. You. Don't upload a document. You have to manually put in everything and failed all the fields. And I remember I was so nervous about standing out. All the qualified candidates. I think I maxed out the word limit. Every single feel made sure that I was getting much information as possible in there. Requirement. Jonathan's like, please. But that's as long as you put the ideas. You don't have to you have to go lengthy. But you just have to make sure that your your personality, heart and soul this reflected into it. Yeah. I mean, there are some people that sometimes missed the Mark by just putting a lot of fluff in their resume. We're looking for quality content. So one of the things that I would recommend also have a have a a career counselor have one of your peers, maybe professors, take a look at your resume, and and and provide you with feedback on on kind of what they're seeing from what they're reading. So how how are we getting the word out about Goto USA jobs in apply for the pathways internship? What's the what's the recruiting process for for pathways? Sure. So we use a lot of different avenues to try to reach as as many folks as we can our employees. Our biggest ambassadors here at USC. And so we utilize our employee networks to reach out to their networks. So that we can cast a very wide met. In addition to that, we have employee resource groups that exist onsite here at the Johnson Space Center that have particular interest in in various groups, you know, across the country with respect to recruiting and on boarding. And so we definitely are are working in partnership with them to ensure that that we are reaching out to to those targeted groups as well, you know, through their networks, but we try to do as much as we can to cast that wide net right now, we have one hundred and fifty students that are come from over eighty different schools and about seventy six percent of those students are from outside the state of Texas and Texas is pretty big, right? So we are really proud of our really national reach students that come from all the way north, you know, Alaska and Puerto Rico and everywhere in between. And so, you know, we're we're. Glad to be able to have the luxury of having the best and the brightest apply, and and go through the interview and selection process such that we are able to find people like Alexis who can kind of hit the ground running that first day and really contribute in a in a really positive way to to the mission as really important. I know, you know, during my class of forty fifty whatever it was. I mean, I was friends with folks from all over, and it was really cool just to see the diversity at the applicants to not just location, but just just from all walks of life, and it just made that experience just that much more meaningful. I think diversity is pretty important thing for that. Because yet all the different perspectives. Not only the talent not only the degrees. But you just get different perspectives that you bring here and really just improves the overall culture. And that's what's really cool. Is that no matter what your interests are? You'll probably find somebody that might have the same kind of interest or might be in the same phase of life or. You know, might might have some kind of experience that you have had in the past as well. So during orientation, we go around the room and just do a little intro. You know, name university fun fact, and that kind of thing, and yeah, we have we have so many fun facts for folks that have have either been in the military or have pilots lot of pilots. That's cool. A lot of skydivers a lot of folks that play instruments, and and you know, there's so many other things that make each person unique. But also connected. They just really cool to kind of see how it all plays out for each cohort every semester. Yeah. Exactly. I'm sure you're like, I know for me personally, the friends that I made during the co-op program. I am still friends with today. And we hang out all the time. It's it's a it's a bond that kind of continues you find your your best friends, but they're from again all over an and with all kinds of different interests. But you still. Find a way to connect. And that's one of the things about Johnson Space Center. I think is what makes us what makes NASA one of the best. What makes NASA the best place to work in the federal government? You know, based on that that survey that goes out every year is the fact that we are doing life together as a community we worked together. But we also, you know, were were spending time with each other after work. I I am like you Gary, and that I have seen my peer group of of pathways interns. You know, it's been it's been, you know, fifteen years since I was in the program. But my peers, we've we we've gone through like marriages, we've gone through having kids, and you know, just life things that have been really cool to do it with folks that you have been bonded with from. You know, really really early time in your life. It's one of my favorite things about the program. We all come from like, you said a variety of different places. But now that we're all here role here because we want to support the mission we wake up every day knowing that we have one of the best jobs in the world. And hopefully, we'll get to all be here for the long run. And so already making those bonds and connections, and knowing that these are going to be our appears for a long time. It's been great. But that's a fantastic ways. Arap this just to establish. What off wasn't it say awful my gosh. Awesome community. This is it was is truly incredible. I'm very proud to be a part of it. I'm sure there is a lot more information that you can find about the program all the nitty gritty details. You know, there's I I wanted to have so many questions about, you know, just when I was co-op, you know, the questions like, you know, do I have to bring a car, and where am I supposed to live? Where can we find some of these questions Jonathan? Sure. So so the one thing that I will say is that we've been primarily talking about the pathways intern program here at the Johnson Space Center the pathways program exists across NASA as an agency. So there are ten NASA centers that that have opportunities available for pathways interns, each center kind of does things a little bit differently. So I would I would refer you to each centers specific pathways website. For for information Johnson Space center's pathways website is pathways dot J, ac- dot NASA dot gov, and that actually has a lot of information about kind of what we talked about the tour schedule requirements the program policies, the the FAQ's, and and the like, so I would encourage those of you that are interested in learning more about the program to visit that website, again, it's pathways dot J. A C dot NASA dot gov. Perfect. And we'll reiterate that at the end and. In terms of housing and learning more about what you should do before you come. If you're accepted into the program. We have a committee that helps with housing the insurance here, and they have a website, which is space city housing dot com. And you can go on that. And find place to live once you're accepted in terms of cars and driving. I'm not from Texas so driving in Houston it. I I come from Oklahoma state. A little town of Stillwater can be a little bit scary, especially when you can drive ten hours and still be in Texas. That's bring a car. But if you have to carpool every everyday a lot of the interns live together. So it's it's doable. And we have of course, the lovely bikes around ESE a lot of people bike to work as well. That's awesome. Yeah. Get those those steps in. Well, I guess. Minutes in exercise minutes. All right guys that was a fantastic overview of pathways. I was glad to have you both here because we're all pathways interns are at one point, you know, and even now saying the perspective of twenty nine thousand nine just how competitive it is to me and you're trying to beat out two thousand applicants, but it's that's why we get some of the best of the best in this way is the best place to work. So thank you for coming on and sharing these stories. Thank you so much. Thank you. John bring your. Hey, thanks for sticking around. So Jonathan Bari Senate multiple times at the end. But one more time just in case you missed it. Go to pathways dot J, ac- dot NASA dot gov to figure out all the information about what we talked about. And some more about the pathways internship program. And how to apply otherwise you can listen to some of our other episodes on Houston. We have a podcast we have one where we talked about another education program called microgravity university. You can check that one out. Otherwise, we have a lot of other NASA podcasts on NASA Doug of slash podcast. Follow the Johnson Space Center and all the cool stuff. We're doing here at on Facebook, Instagram and Instagram and Twitter. We also have a student's page NASA. JC students that's on Facebook. And on Twitter this podcast was recorded on March twentieth. Twenty nineteen thanks to Alex Perryman. Norm. Ran and Pat Ryan and thanks again to Mr Jonathan Bari and miss Alexis. Vance for coming on the show. We'll be back next week.

NASA intern Alexis Vance Jonathan Jonathan alexis Houston US Texas Johnson Space Center Gary Jordan Johnson Space Center NASA Johnson Space Center Alexis Vance JSE program manager Mr Jonathan Abbari university of Houston federal government Houston.
Running a Space Center

NASACast Audio

1:03:57 hr | 8 months ago

Running a Space Center

"HOUSTON. We have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space. Center episode one, Sixty, one running space center. I'm Gary Jordan and I'll be your host today on this podcast we bring in the experts scientists, engineers, astronauts all to let you know what's going on in the world of human spaceflight for almost sixty years NASA's Lyndon B Johnson Space Center in Houston has led the United States and the world. On, a continuing adventure of human exploration discovery and achievement Johnson is on seventeen hundred acres of land and boasts workforce of nearly ten thousand, and it takes a lot to run the center especially. Now, it's an interesting time where the majority of the centers workforce is on a Telework Status House the center keeping everyone safe during the coronavirus pandemic we're on the Gulf side of Texas. So what happens if a hurricane comes our way? The same folks that help with these scenarios help to keep the Johnson Space Center running the director itself is called the center operations and they deal with everything from utilities to logistics. Security Environmental Services Sustainability efforts to the quote unquote other stuff like dealing with fire ants and parking. At the helm of these efforts are Joel Walker and Linda's Bueller director of center operations and the emergency manager. Respectively on today's episode, we're GONNA. Learn just how all of these things come together. So here we go running. Johnson Space, center with Joel, Walker and Linda's Bueller. And Joy. WanNa, time. County. Out. there. Joel and Linda thanks so much for coming on to podcast. Today. Thanks Gary, thanks for having us. Thank you. I'm excited to talk about the operations of the center. We discuss human spaceflight quite a bit. Going out into space and saying all of that works but I think it's just as fascinating to see how you have to run the space center. That's actually leading some of these these efforts like the International Space Station like the Orion program there's a lot of big programs here and it's going to be very interesting to figure how this works mission control. Very interesting stuff when I get a better understanding I of who were talking to and who are the people that are leading these efforts. Joe Why don't we start with you a little bit about yourself what you do here at the Center I grew up in east Tennessee, in Knoxville went to University of Tennessee. CO-OP with Kennedy Space Center. That's how I got started with NASA. Worked there for three or four years transferred to Goddard space lots in Maryland. Worked in the DC area for a couple years and then moved to Houston been here ever since. My background is logistics, what they would call supply chain management now. and then I'll leave the team of one hundred civil servants. And Probably I don't know five, six hundred contractors depending on what we have going on. managing the center every day kind of like sitting manager's job. Except that also the police chief. the landlord and other things. I love that description it is Kinda like a city though isn't it Johnson Space Series pretty big. I remember when I first came here. One of the first things that surprised me was it size the fact that when you get past the gates, you have traffic lights that that you have to go through. It is kind of like the little town. Yeah it's Kinda self-contained We we get some utilities from offside, but we produce of our own power about half of it. So yeah, it's a lot of about the same elements of the city to. Lyndon, I have to give everybody a desk and a chair air conditioning and make sure the grass is cut and take care of the roads and all all the kind of basic services that help make you productive every day I'm very curious to get into what those protective services are but Linda I, WanNa gets a little bit better. What's What's your background? So I have grown up in Texas I'm. A second generation employees, my dad was a in the orbiter projects office and I am the emergency manager JSE. So like Joel said, as a city, we have city services so I'm the one that plans firm urgency's and also helps respond to emerging six. Very big and that sexually one of the big topics I wanted to address today was We're we're kind of in the middle of hurricane season and just understanding how you prepared this city, the Johnson Space Center four hurricanes. Hurricane Preparedness Very interesting to get into but first. Let's. Lay the land for just what we're talking about here. I'm sure there are people who are listening that have no idea what the Johnson Space Center looks like and we are describing it as a city just what all that means as part of what this is this community. So so Joel give us an overview of what the Johnson Space Center is what what facilities, what what elements make up the Johnson Space Center. Really it's It's Kinda four places. the the main sides about sixteen hundred acres. but we also operate Five Cents Test Facility in Las cruces New Mexico that's a part of Johnson Space Center. It's a small site where we do hazardous testing and stuff they operate for for my purposes they operate kind of independently their own little little town. but we have Ellington Field Ellison airport. We have our aircraft operations on one side of the runway and on the other side of the runway, we have our our big pool for space station operations, the neutral buoyancy lab. Those Operate at the airport. It's about five miles away from us. and then the main part of the campus is. A couple, of. Hundred buildings. The central part looks like a college campus if you will you know kind of a central area with ponds and and greenspace. outlying areas which are like logistics facilities. some testing facilities, things like that kind of sit on the fringe is. and when we were built when we first started in the early sixties, there was very, very little infrastructure around Johnson Space, center so while we. Don't have buildings on all of our land be Kinda protected 'cause that's where we would do if you expansion or. Operations so you know we we kinda started with sixteen hundred acres. We've held onto it, and then the city has grown around US immensely. So we kinda protect your own if you will. Yeah Johnson has an interesting history. I've gotten brief glimpse glimpses of it. I think it was purchased from think was rice. University back in the late fifties early sixties and was this. You know this this plot of Land Sixteen, hundred Acre plot of land. But around it there really wasn't much to what we know now is the clear lake area. Yeah that's true. We had You know we one of the one of the big factors was we have clear lake which allowed us to have barge operations and make big articles in we wanted to be close to the water. but there wasn't any housing nearby and as Johnson Space Center was being built. Elements of as it started to form where in downtown Houston Week is you know twenty miles away. In various parts of other small towns around us we eventually consolidated. At the site built. but there wasn't any housing really for. All employees that sprung up and you know a couple of years. So the area around us has really developed a lot in the past. Forty years to to support human spaceflight. Very. Much. So so when we're talking about. The operations of the center of this piece of land and you talked about the? Not just this this main one that I'm talking about but also Ellington field also neutral buoyancy laboratory and whitesands. What is it exactly that you're looking after? What does it mean to operate all of these different locations. Well. We're like other cyber like a college campus would be We have our own utility plants. We have two of them onsite about three months I we have. What we call a central plant. And that's that's pumping out of our cold air cold water steam, and all those kinds of utilities are buildings. we have, auxiliary plant that's Kinda augment that. Have backup power for mission, control we. have. huge plant. That's that's dedicated to our mission control operations as a backup power. So everything else kind of goes down. The backup power plant. Would come online and Power Mission Control. Recently. The. Last couple of three years added a combined heat and power plant. Because essentially what we used to do is bring in all of our power like an electrician from site. And then we distribute turn it into the air conditioning and whatever else we turned it into and distribute that all our buildings. And now we can produce with these to turbine engines. We essentially produce our own power for about seventy percent of the site. we turn our our waste into steam and and use that to augment our bowlers. For a hot water and Team steam and things like that and we distribute that thing you know one of the things that that is a little different about us is we have a tunnel system. It's our central plants to our central campus. All the distribution of those utilities goes underground in tunnels system about three and a half miles. Of. Tunnels underneath that's what I call underneath the space program. it it. It's. It's more stable because it doesn't get affected by high winds and some of the things you know whether. You just have to watch out for the flooding. So we we try to protect it very careful but with flooding when we have high water And I know that's one of those things that we in Houston Texas, always have to be aware of the flooding and I'm sure there's a number of other things. So Celinda when you're looking at the Johnson Space Center Ellington Field Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory and maybe even whitesands as the emergency manager what are you looking after for all of these sites? So as an emergency manager, we try to to plan and mitigates away from any hazards that we possibly can. So a lot of our work goes into planning and not necessarily. Responding to emergencies because we try to avoid the emergencies. So, for flooding we put in a lot of efforts to mitigate flooding for the tunnels. For example, we have a flood plan that allowed us to put in some automatic floodgates that will. Protect the tunnel from flooding. If we end up with high water in the tunnel areas, these floodgates will be automatically triggered to kind of rise up in clothes as the water gets higher, and we've also got some floodgates in several of our buildings mission control building, and and things like that to keep it from. From, affecting. The infrastructure. Whitesands we don't have to worry so much about flooding in white fans but extreme each and things like that and we have a team. I've emergency management out there that I work closely with. Very nice and I know. You mentioned the the the integrity of the buildings themselves I know flooding is definitely one of those things that you definitely have to watch out for but we do have the the buildings themselves I believe correct me if I'm wrong joey mentioned backup power can be one thing to support the mission control. Center. But I know the building itself I, believe is actually built to withstand high winds and and basically take a beating for a lot of the elements that could be thrown at it. Yeah, we we we have Standards that we build our buildings to it started off in the sixties with black ninety mile per hour winds. A roof needed to be able to handle that and now that believe we've we've upped that like one ten. But it's essentially a category two storm. And You know we've got a lot smarter about Bad weather if he will I as you know, we're we're flat were just like perfectly flat. We're like eighteen feet above sea level on one side of the center, and you go all the way to the other side of this center. Not Think you're like twenty, one eight. So were were right on clear lake, which is right on. which feeds into Galveston. Into the Gulf of Mexico. So so while you know being close to a barge dock is awesome. When you have a storm? Water cannon gets pushed up into you and then Houston. All the drainage for Houston kind of flows down our way. So when he gets full, it starts you know coming downstream to us. So we've we've. You know we always talked about hurricanes as wind events and and how do we? We stand a wind event a lot of times. It's the water it's It's trouble for you. We are right now building a new emergency operations center. which always stand cat five storm. It's essentially a an office building during the day. But. When we get into hurricanes, it will be a place where teams and to go with hot for the law because under current operations if it gets really bad anything above a category two storm. we don't feel comfortable leaving people on sight. See That's interesting. That's balanced between Joel, what you're thinking of as operating the center and Linda just being having that sense of not just reacting to emergencies but preparing for them. I know in terms of the big list, Joel that you win over in the beginning of of the things that you look after as the city manager and the police chief and all that. One of them are the facilities and looking after new construction you have of course, these facilities meant for emergencies something to withstand cat five. But I know we're also doing a lot of sustainability efforts. A lot of the buildings we have on-site our lead certified What are some of those efforts like? Well, it We're building all nasty as we've our standard. Now for a new building is LEED silver, which is kind of You, know you WANNA have all the energy savings things incorporated into the building. You WANNA oriented a certain way you want to operate as a certain way. Or, energy savings for comfort. So we we were doing all of our new buildings kind of this new way. But on the maintenance side, you gotta think of our maintenance personnel. the way I like to think of it is they have to be able to operate on a nineteen sixty five. Mustang. And they also have to be able to drive a new tesla. Right. So it's a real mix and and One of the things that we've done is we reuse buildings a lot we We'll take a in lieu of building a brand new building. We'll take a building and we'll modify it, and some of those modifications had taken not team sixty five building and turn it into a lead building. so that CAN BE A. Great. Way To you keep the same location, you keep the. all the vantage is you have of the older building and then you just kinda upgrade it all the new standards with all the systems and everything and we've we've done that a lot. There's a lot of lottery us as we've gone through, you know Apollo to shuttle. Space Station to be you know all the new programs and stuff. We have not. You know you don't you don't rebuild Johnson Space Center every time a new program comes you got to be flexible and adapt and reuse and and be able to change what you have to meet what the new programs needs are. That's right and I and now I can take full advantage of some of these efforts you're talking about Joel because I work in building two and building two is well, actually it might have been the first building that was constructed the Johnson. Space. Center. But now it's lead gold is one of those new renovation efforts. Yeah that was our first effort at renovating one delete standards. We learned a lot and in fact. The construction of folks in the Houston area, it was one of the first buildings. In the area. To to get renovated into breen into agreeing LEED standards. We also have. A The first platinum building in Massa, which is the highest. Athlete Standard. So we've done a lot of a lot of work like that. It helps US downstream as we're doing maintenance and as we're operating the building is cheaper and it's really Really Nice. It's it's it's a great thing to do what does it take to become leed platinum what sorts of things do you have to have what sorts of capabilities of the building? Oh it's it involves the landscaping you know you're trying to do low maintenance landscaping. You're trying to. Do Solar hot water. Your your systems that bring outside area and treat it in a certain way so that you don't you use as much energy. Materials you build it out of our. recycled materials. In back to your construction process has to recycle any waste they have. the way you orient the building the view you know windows, the way that the building works. So there's there's a lot to it. There's a lot of you get points. You know it's like a checklist Thousand things that give you points and you go through and try to incorporate all these. energy. Saving. And recycling systems in a building. And you get enough points you certified platinum. It's a big deal. That's a lot of work for sure. Now, Linda, I'm GONNA, toss it over to you because I'm thinking you get all these energy saving things for the facility, of course, looking at that sustainability factor. But I know you mentioned a couple facilities and capabilities of Johnson, space center floodgates and and wind resistant buildings What are some of those features of space center that you're looking at not just for buildings but just the the Center For Emergency, preparedness. So like Joel said with having our utilities, underground helps a lot when it comes to win event. So we don't have to worry as much about sustainable power during window vents, and in fact, we tend to do better than our neighbors usually when it comes to keeping power during storms. we we also don't sacrifice any safety or emergency equipment or Anything like that. When we the League buildings, in fact, most of the new buildings they're incorporating mass notification systems into the buildings. So in the newer buildings are this emergency dispatchers can actually speak over an intercom to the occupants of certain buildings. So as we're building these new buildings were taking the newer technology into consideration and trying to leverage that against the league capabilities and make sure that we have a good tight system to help make sure that our folks are safe. And that blends in very nicely to the next topic which you're talking about emergency responders, some of the capabilities of not only emergency response but also. I guess I don't know if this folds into security and then some of the medical personnel we have on-site. Yes, we actually have our own an ambulance crew that it is there during the day during working hours during the regular workweek and so emergency dispatchers dispatch our security folks are everyone's folks and we have fire protection services on site as well. But they're kind of the first line of Defense We send them out when we have automatic fire alarms in buildings or reports of smoke. And so our dispatch center dispatches just like a small city. They would dispatch fire security and medical personnel to any type of event that happens at jse about that. Now, Joel part of the security is You know actual having security guards a believed the entire perimeter of the Johnson Space. Center is fenced in. So some of the security measures that you have to look after. Yes. So we do you have to have a badge to get onsite or you have to be invited and get bad. and they're screening. Like, you would think of maybe at a military base or something like that. and and then there's a coal kind of infrastructure. Involved around that you know how have you have you do that? How. Do you issue on how you ran them? how do you check them? And so you have kind of. Security. So, you know I can have a visitor demain office That's one thing having a visitor go into mission control quite another thing. And so just even even a regular employee will have. To what they need on site they won't necessarily have access to every place on the site right so you you're trying to make it a little bit. Tougher tighter as you go into the most more critical areas. Go we try to keep everybody you know? while you go a lot of places you know everybody doing work and everybody's got you know special Labra. special operations even in buildings, we have like holidays. IF I go over there I have accidents I can go in, but I gotta pay attention because they may be operating overhead crane. Or doing specific training that day so. We try to to to manage that through security security handles. Communication Security they handle the the people security and then they do you know you know traffic patrols. Parking, tickets. Some of the more normal mundane stuff we try be prepared. If something Big happens you know we're kind of the first line of Defense but a lot of it is what you might think about it in the city if you had to be censored intercity. Another body was invited. I love that. Yeah. There's the security is absolutely essential I know even even today you have just twenty, four, seven security around. Around the Johnson based on her and and the gates open and closed just depending on the time of day I'm going through my list of different operations here and and one that I think sticks out that's possibly unique to. The Johnson Space Center compared to a lot of other offices. What makes running space center? A space center is the environmental and Hazardous Chemicals side of things there's You you got a lot of biology here at the Johnson space here you got You know you're dealing with rockets some of those elements. Lyndale. Tossed it over to you. Because I think there is emergency responses to. Hazardous Chemicals plan for for Johnson Space. Center. Definitely one of one of the more fun things about my job is I get to work with the very diverse group of people from different organizations, and we have a very close relationships with the folks in our health and human. Performance Directorate and Occupational Health. And they're the ones that are kind of the of the kingdom for hazardous material. And so they have databases of hazardous materials. We work closely with our Safety Directorate, Mission Mission Safety and Quality Assurance strength to to make sure that that folks are following the proper procedures when when they argue hazard hazardous materials or hazardous equipment and We spent a lot of time as emergency management like I said, a lot of its upfront work so we try to. Avoid the emergencies. So there's a lot of pre-planning that goes into hazardous operations and when hazardous chemicals are are used but we do have plans in place should something go wrong and we have a close relationship with both the Houston. Fire. Department. In your simply department and we run exercising exercises and drills to make sure that that we're ready and able to respond should something happen. Linda even gives me a hard time because we have all the you think of city you have all the industrial chemicals to run the plant and sometimes it's you know it's like having a pool in your backyard. The chemicals you have You have to maintain them, maintain them in a certain way. So they don't lead the soul and all that kind of fun stuff. But it at the planet. JSE. Take about how big we are sometimes, it's the chemicals. Okay. But the amount of the chemical you have. To make a whole different story. So lots of lots of backup plans about what we do lots of. drainage systems containment systems a lot of things like that that that happened just with running the city itself. Yeah. It's. So it's so interesting I wanted to focus on some of those. Some of those things that you. Now you talked about the preparedness four, these hazardous chemicals, but I'm trying to think of specific. Examples at the Johnson Space Center I know one. Is We. Have a very large thermal vacuum chamber and I believe there are some you know. Not, I guess facilities but also chemicals that have to. Be Carefully worked with to make that thing run. So Joe a little bit about what that thermal vacuum chamber is and then some of the ways that we have to deal with these hazardous chemicals. Well. It's a it's a vacuum chamber that that you can put a spacecraft in and. Simulates like outer space right pulls a vacuum on it you can take it down to and I don't know the. Technical words but really, really really really really cold. So so what you're trying to do is test the spacecraft to know that all the things are going to work. Once it gets launched and gets out to it's proper location. uses a lot of liquid nitrogen, and so we have to look over all the things that. Go into that operation the engineering director, it would be the organization that operates a test. And and maintains the chamber itself that the systems inside the chamber, we would maintain the building. And cognizant over with safety over the hazards and all the stuff that goes into that. So we have to work with the whole team. It's not. You know there's emergency response is great but you hope to is not to have an emergency response so. You Know Linda will coordinate all these plans that they've ever wanted to find out what what exactly is going on and how they mitigate now hazards, and how are they operating it, and what ours is that test GonNa be and watching over it, and how do they plan and all that Kind of putting it together. So before you ever start operation, you know what they'll do if it goes wrong and and she does plans on top of plan. So she has. She has a plan for what you do if it goes wrong and a plan for what you do is the plan that you put in place goes wrong also. So lots of lots of contingency planning. To make sure that we're prepared for whatever happens. Fascinating now, Lynn. Linda. That means you must be involved with I guess a lot of the testing that use a lot of these hazardous chemicals, a lot of these special facilities on Johnson Space. Center I guess this can extend to Whitesands as well and some of the other facilities you're. As, part of the planning process and your your mindset, your your value add is you're thinking about the emergency responses if this were to go bad. This is how we respond this how respond as a backup to the backup to that back that's your. That's your role in some of these critical space tests. That's true. I like the tell folks I'm kind of liaison between all the different responding groups like I said, we work closely with health and human performance and safety and H FD and HP, and so I'm kind of the one above everyone kind of making sure that we're looking at all the different pieces and looking at the big. And and then putting all those little details together. A love it. Joel you said, you had a background in. In Logistics and supply chain management and I know one of the. Capabilities going away from emergency response and procedures for a second the. Items and and services. Makeup Center operations are logistics. So you're talking the shipping receiving you're talking the vehicles you're talking the storage that's all under center operations right? Yeah, it is and it's it's kind of one of those Background. Services if you think about it, you know. you know I need copy paper for my printer. or I've got to go downtown and I need to get. To See, if I could borrow a car. Lots, of the other stuff that comes in just for the industrial planet comes through logistics. They also kind of track our property. You know we maintain a property system to make sure we don't lose anything and to make sure that we're tracking their assets, they operate system for us, and then when you want to get rid of something if you've got a Piece of equipment that's outdated. Now you're replacing it it's the it's the logistics organization that comes and gets it, and then process is through an an excess system to make sure we either recycling. or able to sell it and get some value out of it. So they manage all that kind of stuff force number warehouses they do furniture office moves some of the new furniture repair furniture to do a lot of things like that. That are supportive of me keeping working at my office uninterrupted. And then on top of just the the in the office, you're also managing outside the office you're are you looking after the? Facility as a whole lawn the mall. Area. As. Well as I have here as an other stuff item, some of the wild animals that are on site. Yeah we do It's a Muslim. We like some of them. We don't like so much. But But you know we have you know big open space and it's of Pristine Probably half are senators kind of pristine. Texas. Prairie. We have lots of animals and were On. One of our borders is the arm and. Nature Center, which is. A protected habitat for wild animals. But. You know. The favorite one everybody has is our dear we have two hundred and seventy five roughly deer on our side. They'll be quiet during the day and you can see them in the field and stuff, and if you ever come out on a weekend or at night they're just walking down our streets and trying to use the crosswalks and do the proper thing. Aware, and everybody loves a deer but with the deer come snakes, possums, skunks. Cats. Counties. lots of luck to her even lots of about animals that you might not think. So it's kind of We have a wildlife biologist on site and We, we brought one on site. Because we were having more and more kind of people wild animal. Interactions. So so we had this wildlife biologists and tries to. Operate our wildlife if you will maintain them. Control. Them. in a way that it's consistent congruent with what would with our physical operations we don't. Want somebody to get hurt or bid or and every now, and then As you could imagine, dear, I'll hit by a car doesn't happen very frequently. Need somebody on site to take care of that. and make sure we're doing the right thing. But they also kind of consult with this August, we're talking about building a new building. Or we do bird counts on site we a rookery on side. So we have. within the Texas? What's it called Linda the Texas Gulf coast flyway. Migration Pass. For northern birds went down to Mexico for the winter and so we're kind of a stopover point. And so we try to keep the bird window collisions down and all that kind of stuff. So it is it is interesting at times. It's kind of aggravating. I have been in a was in a meeting with our center director one day when one of the secretaries knocked in the door interrupted called me out into the sweet. And I thought boy this must be really important. It was because there was a bat in the suite flying this week and I'm not sure why she thought I was a great person to take care of it. Other than I do our wildlife biologist, this phone number. We. Got Him cornered in office and we had the right people come up and take care of it. So we try to keep interactions down and we try to. We don't feed our wildlife and do that kind of thing we try to peacefully coexist, but it's but it's great. You know you see you're in an urban area. And you come to work, and then you feel like You're in. Half of a nature preserve and a half of space center. Great. Joy It's a I'M Taking, a snapshot of everything that we've talked about so far just the things that you manage I mean it's just incredibly diverse. The utilities you're talking about powering the center you're talking about buildings, security emergency management logistics for. Shipping and and vehicles, and now we're we're here talking about animals. Just what an incredibly diverse director it to be a part of. It what are the things? I really like about the the job I have I have a short attention span. So you know some people want to be a nuclear physicist and what I. Really hone in on a specific technicality and our directorate is a little bit of everything. And I laugh and tell somebody you know somebody asked me. A about a certain function or certain things sometimes I'll say, well, it's essentially if you can't think of somebody else on site who has that special? Team. It probably belongs to center up someplace. It's my it's my job to take care of it. So we do take care of you know very known specific things and then a lot of our job is and whatever else shows up. There you go and the other stuff duties as assigned edge it. That's right. I wanNA I. WanNa take this moment to get into just where we are today One of the part of the reason I want to have you guys on was not only to talk about all this great and diverse thing that what takes to run a space center, just the the landscape of where we are today. To items that come up are prepared for hurricanes just something that is an annual thing everybody on the center is always looking out for hurricanes and looking at. You know this the safety of everyone on the center and making sure that everything's GonNa run smoothly and now we're in this interesting time of covid nineteen and how that's and how that's affecting center operations. So Linda, I want to start with you with some of the hurricane. Preparedness and operations just some of the considerations when it comes to specifically during the hurricane season, what you're gearing up for and how you prepare everyone of the center to get prepared for this this time of year. So, yes. hurricane season is one of the busiest times of my job because like I said a lot of what I do is planning and preparation and planning for hurricanes that is one of our. Most expected disasters, such jse, and something we can't control. So what we try to do is make sure that we have a robust plan in place. And we encourage folks to plan personally I know that's Been Pretty on folks minds especially with the pandemic about how to plan during a pandemic and and I would say that Folks really need to think ahead. Have a plan consider that the pandemic is probably going to change what your plan may have been last year or the year before a lot of the shelters in the area are operating differently they're trying to Limit, a number of folks keep up the social distancing protocols. So I would say, have a plan, write it down. Make sure your family is all involved in the planning process. Make sure you have someone outside of the danger zone. That's contact. That kind of knows what your plan is when you enacted where you're headed. If you're staying at home and that way you have someone outside of the disaster area that that folks can contact. with with a pandemic A. Water becomes key and I think a lot of folks are often surprised that when you lose power, you often lose running water and so if you're new to the area, it's not just about suffering through no air conditioning and no power, you may not have running water during an emergency so. All those things should be taken into consideration. If if you have young children or elderly you need to take the fact that you may not have running water into consideration even just keeping enough water on hand during the emergency We, we tell people took plan for seventy two hours without help from the outside world and in Houston that that's a lot of water to drink. We recommend a gallon per person and per pet per day. So. That's what pretty quickly if you have a larger household Food. Seventy two hours worth of food. We caution folks that emergency services from. Fire departments will not necessarily be available. We've had incidences in Hurricane Ike. For example, there were several structures in Galveston that burnt to the ground in four feet of water. Because of electrical shortages that caused fires and with four feet of water Obviously. Emergency personnel, we're not able to get the structure. So so things like that or definitely you WanNa, take all that into consideration when you're making your plan for our plan for the center. WE'VE GOT PREPARATION PRETTY DOWN PAT we've worked really hard at that over the years and. In the time of the pandemic I think we've talked about this in the town halls, but we would not expect. General employees to have to come back on site to save office space. If you have a particular lab or something that's up and running, or you're worried about lab equipment that would be something that you may WanNa work through your management to make sure that those things are safe. But for the general employees, we're not, GONNA ask folks to come back on site just to safe office space. Joel and I are actually part of A. Team. That manages the hurricane away from the center. So for very large hurricanes we. Are plans to relocate We've got a plan in place to go to the round rock area and can set up a mobile command post out there that allows us to. Keep. Our websites running and make emergency notifications if necessary we were Security. Folks I. I R. D folks and Public Affairs folks with us so We we have a tie in back to human resources as well. So so we we make sure that we have the right team. They're available to keep the center up to date on what's happening. Our emergency management website JC SOS DOT COM is not a behind the NASA firewall. So folks can get to that and and see what's going on the status of the center. And our emergency notification System does not run on JC servers either. So if our power goes down at JC, we can still send notifications to focus on their personal devices and and to to their work emails and things like that. So we so we basically recommend as part of preparation. To, go in as an employee and check your emergency contact information a lot of elements here. There's there's preparation on the personal side this preparation on the center side, and then also communication is just one of those critical things making sure that everyone is prepared. So if you do need to for whatever reason relocate to the round rock area. That you're notifying the right people and then everybody's safely traveling from one place to the other just a massive responsibility. To look after when you're talking about hurricane preparedness, one of those things I living in that Gulf coast area. That is true and it's like I said, it's always on her mind as as most of you probably know this is a hyperactive season. This year, we've actually got to areas of interest that we're monitoring in the Atlantic We are lucky enough to have a meteorologist on-site ch- spaceflight meteorology group that we work very closely with to Taylor, forecasts to pinpoint to JC, Ellington and Sonny Carter. So so we've got you know very very up to date information about the weather and how it may affect us and we take that into consideration when we execute our plans. Perfect now moving moving past the preparedness phase, let's take a look at a certain case study. In that case study being Harvey This is one where you know preparedness turns into action comes to reacting to a storm, and this one is definitely on the minds of every individual who's lived in Houston and live through this. This storm is just how much it affects daily life. So the lessons learned from. Harvey. Some of the actions we took and some of the actions that we will take in the future. Harvey. Was a little bit different for us. You know normally. We would see storm coming We'd have a certain time line. Decide Okay we need to release employees the average the average employees Michigan travel would make. A Call Independent what they need to do, and then we would keep like sixty five. facilities for people on on site is right out team and those people would stay was a cat a cat one storm would stay through the storm and then be the kind of the first responders for. damage control, and trying to keep the plant up and running. If we can Harvey was a little bit of a different animal because. It it was a hurricane, but it didn't JSC right didn't hit Houston. It hits south of us, significantly but we got the rain. So on Harvey Oh like a day before it was supposed to hit and I think it was Corpus Christi or a Little Bit South Dakota Chris Christie. And we're talking about a lot of rain and one of my facilities, my facilities division she was supposed to go on vacation and just said hey look. This is making me a little bit nervous. Yeah. But we're not going to get the winds. We're not gonNA. Get this that we could get some rain. So he said. That he would he wanted to stay on site and just. And keep you know four or five people live in. just in case something they because we do have you know things like we've leaks and that kind of stuff you said I I just want to keep a small team just in case we get some roof leaks out of it. So that five person, team essentially became I write outgrew and we had some other operations that are ongoing that we did not evacuate. So we just Kinda went into a weekend saying this is going to be Rainy flooding kind of weekend and it turned out so much more. So that five six person team. And whoever else happened to be working at the time where essentially stuck for a couple of days we had James. Webb space. Telescope was under testing and It could not be it was in that big chamber. We were talking about earlier and you you you. Couldn't turn the test off and back on was a you know three or four months test. So so we essentially had that kind of operate the site with the people that we had on sisal people you had an issue control had to say. the people in facilities there were there stayed people that were insecurity state. And so whoever came on shift was unfortunate enough to come on shift when the storm started or stopped for about three days. So it was a little bit. Different force than we had we did okay with the flooding part on site. We had some building some of our lower smaller buildings get some water in them that the The amount of rain. really just it just so roofs and we had lots and lots and lots of. The leaks. So so essentially what you had on site was. five or six additional people to what you've had on a third shift. And a band of rain would come through. And then are you know facilities? Folks would say, Hey, look we got. Big Leaks you know we got the. Leaves impact in a drain over in a certain area so that that Rain event would come through you get maybe an hour. between bands, they would run over fix that problem I didn't take shelter again for the next band come through and went on for about three days. It was we got you know essentially a year's worth of rainfall in a weekend. So, it was anything that could flood flood the tunnel stay dry but telesystems worked well, system was talking about that worked well. but you know just getting around even giving. The people that were working on James Webb Space Telescope. They were in a hotel across the street. So it kind of became. For them, you know one group would be headed worked maybe a ten hour shift and we would call them and say if you WANNA change shifts, there's about a thirty minute window completed. We can get you over to the hotel and get the next shift back to operate how long that they have to operate. So they on immoral that we had and things like that. So it was interesting having these. Scientists a lot of them were from Goddard Spaceflight Center in Maryland. And You know they came down to do a certain thing on a certain plan. And say, wow, I never thought I would be stuck in a building eating military rations while I was testing a futuristic spacecraft. Just. Yeah. Just the that's that's what you have to deal with when you're when you're running the space centre. How about that? It's just. Like you said, I, wanted to pick this case buddy studies specifically because it was just it was an historic storm. Would just the of rain at broad and just the the action plan is just something that It's interesting to prepare for something that beats a lot of historic records. Definitely. Be Historic records that we don't WanNa beat again on the national weather. Service actually had to create a new color for their charts as the amount of rain that we saw in that short period of time they didn't have it color. So they added a kind of like the pink that they now call pink to their charts and it's about fifty. Plus rain range so that that was definitely something. We don't see again, but it did make us look at our hurricane pointed and the way our plan was triggered prior to Harvey. Way To plan was triggered like Joel says, we typically have about sixty folks of stay on site to to handle facilities damage during the storm and immediately after the storm. Since hurricane plan wasn't triggered in full where we only had that small skeleton crew and they did a phenomenal job but obviously, very fatiguing with that short staffs. So we've actually rewritten are hurricane plans to remove the triggers being tropical storm force winds, and now we have multiple triggers basically at the discretion of stole and the Center Director and spaceflight meteorology group input that will allow us to trigger those plans and get more help for those folks that stay on. The. Go. Ahead. Well. I was just GonNa say in what Linda said there was key to we have plans on top of plans. And provides a great structure. But. The folks that you have on those teams they've got to be creative they got to be flexible and it is a time where you you know it's all hands on deck and you do whatever you is you have to do you're not looking. At somebody's job description at that point, you're just finding somebody that can do that job and figure out You know whatever unknown comes at Ya you gotta deal with it. You know the. This is just one of those things that it's. It's just it's just an interesting thing that you have to prepare for. When you're running space center is is Mother Nature just come knocking at your door and changing the whole way that normal operations run and that's the time that we're in right now with with this covid nineteen pandemic, you know we talked about how how the the space centre looks. So different during Harvey, you know all of us were working from home at the time 'cause none of us could actually drive onto the center I at the time was living right off of Buffalo Bayou which was enormously flooded, and I was basically trapped in my apartment building. But now we're living in a time where we're living in a global pandemic and were back at that telework status. So Joel. Pass it over to you. What is life at the Johnson Space Center or operations at the Johnson Space Center during a global pandemic. Well you know we're operating the space station. So we don't and we operate twenty, four seven so we don't. Completely. Clothes unless you're in that kind of extreme hurricane scenario where everybody's having evacuate the area. So. So what we've done is we have a senior staff group. Looks at all of our operations. So we've we've deemed some stuff essential and critical. And so we're so I would say were. fifteen percent staffed onside for the folks that have to come in and do mission control and keep the plant running and do some of our critical operations because we're. What we? you know we had the dragon flight and landing. and all that under a pandemic, and then what we've had to do is everybody else got couple days to prepare to transition to work from home. And when we first started it was. Okay. So is this going to be a week at home? It's IT'S GONNA be two weeks. You know you really didn't know and there's just Kinda gone on and on and on. So I, think we've been extremely successful and. Being able to transition to this new way of doing business and keep things moving as well as we have. we haven't. We haven't I haven't heard a lot of talk about all these schedules slipping and that kind of stuff you know we tend to be. if you if you really need to be on site to do something specifically. Then, you can but don't do things that you don't need to be done onsite but a good example for my organization we have some construction it was critical that just continuing. I would have a person that was would do quality assessment of that construction. in the past, they would walk down from there. They they do other paperwork walk down from their office. Inspect construction side ball back up their office and write your report kind of thing. now, they're doing all the prep work from home. They come on site for a couple of hours and do their inspection, and then they leave again 'cause we don't want to put anybody else. On site. you know we wanNA keep that load as as small as a as we can. So that critical folks can still have their spatial distancing. and and we don't crowd things. So I I think we've been really really good at it. Everybody's learning to. these video chats and all this kinda stuff from home. It's it's been. It's been a it's. It's been a crash course. telework. It really has an and I think the the length of time as you said has just gone on and on and on. That's been I. think the most surprising is just because we've had periods of time where we had to work from home before Harvey was just one of those things. But you know as a couple of days and then we were in the storm passed the water levels. Succeeded and then we were and then we're right back on site doing our normal thing. But this is just it's a it's a completely new way of business and You know one of the ways that we're monitoring this one of the ways that we keep people safe is by. Putting the center itself at a stage level. and. It's it's kind of teleworking stage and I think it's a really good model for looking at the pandemic and making sure that we're assessing the pandemic for the local area and how it affects the people on site. So. Joel Little Bit about how the center stage level works for for cove nineteen. Well it so So we have the critical central folks on site doing what they have to physically today. And we're looking at you know when did we start bringing back a bigger population and how do we? How do we? Have we how do we stage that you know that everybody at one time? is it in phases so we've gone through and defied tasks. You know what? What are the next set of tasks that we would like to see done onsite? What are the next set of people we like to say we're trying to kind of. phase out. So maybe it's twenty percent. comes and they work for a couple of weeks and maybe we had twenty percent more they work for a couple of weeks and we try to do that. So on the back end would be the folks that. That are whose job function is workout work suitable. Put it that way maybe more administrative. Or they have some other issue A health condition where they're not comfortable coming back yet kind of thing, and so we're trying to phase phase this. So it's not a big shock at once it's not going to be a on Monday, all these things happen and and and since we have astronaut health that we look after we got a lot of doctors on site and so we have. Our. health and Human Performance Directorate. is looking at all the different metrics that are out there and looking at having play together how you know the national metrics in the state metrics and local metrics. are positively rates and hospital capacity and you know number of people. In the hospital itself. Cases and all these things how that stuff plays together they look at it fine detail and they brief are are pandemic response group and we and we look at how that plays. For you know, will we be comfortable enough with first set of the next stage of folks coming back on site and so I think we're a little ways away from it. and and you know. It's kind of like a hurricane. You never know which way it's going. Schools are starting back up and You know things are happening community is that going to drive up the cases or drive up the hospitalizations or is this you know are are we starting to see the tail end of this thing? I think anybody's going to be super comfortable that we get a vaccine but we'll be able to bring more people on site as as the Pandemic receipts a little bit we're making in the meantime we're we're making office changes where logistics is getting supplies we've. you know hand sanitizers mass. We're doing lots of procedures doing lots of communication with boats about here's how we want you to work. Here's what we'll do talk to us if you're uncomfortable what you know, what makes you uncomfortable what? What else can we do? So we had a lot of new rules in place that'll be in place when we start back. And a not a lot of new things that folks will have to do different behaviors will have to change. That we're trying to be as planned for as we possibly can be so. So it's a smooth transition back the right people at the right time. Now. Now Linda how some of the emergency responses and how emergency management has changed under covid nineteen we talked about a lot of people working from home. So just how how things have changed how that landscape has shifted for covid nineteen. Well our dispatch center has gotten a little bit of relief from regular call. because. There aren't as many folks on site to to have emergencies but really are our landscape hasn't changed terribly much like I said the the number of incidences for. Regular quote emergencies on site ambulance calls a fire alarm calls. Those kind of things have been down because there are less people working. But we were able to do our wide hurricane exercise remotely with folks teleworking sent communications out to the JSE population. To test our emergency notification system Um. We've been looking at our pandemic plan like Joel said, we have a plan for everything. We do have a pandemic plan was in place before covert, and we're using lessons learned from our response to take another look at that plan and updated as necessary. So so really just kind of business as usual for emergency management. But I'll tell you I think it is going to have to write a couple more chapters on our didn't plan. On so long you know we had just like everybody else I had you know more information, more information, more information what causes it? What help you know what's the thing to do what not to do, and that has changed so much through the course of this pandemic that you know we're continually learning about a better way to do stuff or what not be better protection for somebody. So there's been a ton of education as we've been going through there. So they're gonNA be a lot of lessons aren't. Well I'll tell you what I think. You know we definitely as as an employee here I thank you both for your work fare keeping the for keeping the center safe I'd. Feel comfortable with the way. Things are done working from home joey mentioned administrative I. I can get a lot of my work done from home and I'm sure that's the case for a lot of individuals and and you it's it shows with just what we've accomplished even during the pandemic Julia mentioned. You mentioned the dragon mission the Demo to mission and landing both under pandemic, and we did it successfully. So a lot of great stuff happening to Joel and Linda very much appreciate your time coming on. HOUSTON. We have a podcast what a wonderfully diverse topic today that the Directorate of Center operations and all the things you do all the things you have to prepare for a really appreciate your time today. Thank you very much. Thanks for having us. Thank you for having us. Taylor On. Him. Hey thanks for sticking around really interesting conversation. We had today with Joe Walker inland spoiler thanks for joining us and learning more about the Johnson Space Center it's been an interesting time So it's good to see the inside scoop of what's going on there. You can check out more episodes of our podcast using we have a podcast were on NASA, Dot Gov Slash podcast. You can click on us. There's also a few other podcasts that are across the whole agency. You can check out some of their episodes as well. If you want to know more about what's going on at the Johnson Space Center specifically, you can go to NASA Dot Gov. Slash Johnson do you WanNa talk to us at the Houston we have a podcast you can visit us at the Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, twitter and instagram use the Hashtag national on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show. Just make sure to mention it's for Houston we have a podcast. This episode was recorded on August Seventeenth Twenty twenty. Thanks to Alex Perriman Pat Ryan Nor Moran Belinda Toledo Jennifer Hernandez an jenny nuts thanks again Joe Walker and Linda's Bueller for taking the time to come on the show give us a rating and feedback whatever platform you're listening to us on and tell us what you think of the show. We'll be back next. Week.

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Recycling Water and Air

Houston We Have a Podcast

42:05 min | 1 year ago

Recycling Water and Air

"Houston we have a podcast welcome to the official podcast of the nasa johnson space center episode one zero five recycling water and air. I'm gary jordan. Knob your host today. On this podcast we bring experts nasa scientists engineers astronauts. I'll tell you know the coolest information about what's going on right here. Nasa so a while back in february we spoke to john lewis the manager of the orion environmental control and life support systems and we talked about how a ryan is specifically designed to provide a livable double reliable environment for travel through a harsh deep-space environment well a little closer to home. The international space station relies on these systems which we call eclipse systems and you'll hear that a lot during this episode these systems sustain a livable environment for crewmembers staying in low-earth orbit for a long period of time. There's a lot of elements that go into an ecosystem. The parts of the space station where astronauts live have an atmospheric pressure of fourteen point seven psi about the same as earth at sea level level <hes> for the crew but also then four sensitive equipment stored on the station. It's a mixed air environment of nitrogen and oxygen again like on earth and there are systems for scrubbing every exhale of c._o. Two replacing it with more breathable oxygen which is very important. There's also some systems that pull in water from every available source urine sweat it even just humidity or a national breath and then recycles it into potable or drinkable water reclaiming ninety percent of the water used at this point. There's another system for splitting water into breathable air and another for turning air into water. What the ideas to maximize the finite and very limited resources sources available. This includes partially closed loop system to reuse and recycle these resources for exploration to other worlds. They will need to be more reliable either easier to maintain an even more efficient and then designing these systems that good is going to be very very challenging so today we talking more in depth about these systems on the international space station with our guest laura shaw the international space station program lead for <unk> exploration life support systems man that is a complicated title but laura goes into what's on board the station now and how we're improving these for the sake of exploration which is a term we use a lot during <hes> this episode so really it just means exploring beyond low-earth orbit exploring other worlds very important for for the international space station being used to test all of these systems and this is a very exciting topic so when no further delay let's head to our talk with miss lower shaw enjoy. It's time county. We have asked the laura. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk about environmental control systems on the space station morning. <hes> you know when when when just a couple of weeks ago when we did an interview on on this subject it was just my job to basically set up the interview in and listen but it was just absolutely fascinating. You know there's it seems fairly simple. You know when you're on the space station. There's going to be stuff that keeps the astronauts alive and healthy. Which is you know very normal but but what it takes to to do that is multiple systems and it's it can get a little bit complicated so i'm glad that you can come on to talk about this and it kind of wanted to start there. Just what what is it called eclipse and i and i feel like it's inevitable. We're going to say eclipse a bunch of times but his environmental control and life support systems. Basically you know making a habitable habitable space in this tin cannabis of the spacecraft. <hes> you know what what is it what is an environmental control and life sports system right. It's what you you said. It's it's <hes> creating a habitable environment so what i like to sort of <hes> compare it to is creating a small planet on this inside the spacecraft one that can support the humans and so <hes> we have to. We have to create this environment that makes them comfortable. I obviously keeps them alive. I was next the minimum <hes> so so we create an atmosphere they can breathe create good clean water they drink we provide bathroom facilities <hes> <hes> so and and we remove contaminants from the air that they that they plus their equipment generate so that we can keep their the quality clean so it's so so you know and and going into that there are multiple components of this right so what what what does it take to keep a crew member alive in space. It's it's it's the pressure. It's the air composition. It's a like you said scrubbing the air. What does that mean. Why do we have to scrub the air. So what are the different components are as as you said we need an atmosphere so we need structure to to hold the air in <hes> and it needs to be at the right pressure so that the cruise lungs can function normally and it has to be at the right concentration of oxygen and nitrogen <hes> so that again so that the cruise body knows what to do with it <hes> we need to scrub out the things that are waste products so carbon dioxide site is the most major of those and people are probably familiar with the apollo thirteen <hes> issue with the c._o. Two scrubber had you know they they. They ran out of cartridges. They had to moc mockup the square peg in a round hole issue. That's what we're dealing with. You know we're still dealing with obviously carbon dioxide being removed from the atmosphere so <hes> so that's a very key <hes> contaminant to be removed and then there are also trace contaminants. We call them so some formaldehyde things at the crew themselves actually off gas. Yes we actually humans. Give some some <hes> products and then they're closed their equipment. Their hygiene products things like that will will give off <hes> ten minutes that we need to remove so that they have good clean atmosphere to breathe <hes> so that's for the most part the era virtualization system and then we have the water recovery recovery water processing system so we we start with the bathroom function so we've got facilities for both liquid and solid human waste collection and then we take the the urine from the crew and we <hes> there's a lot of water held up in that so we can't continue to resupply water. It's very heavy. It's expensive to launch equipment to space so we <hes> process the urine with a distiller and we remove <hes> the good water from there and then we use another system to combine the distillation product product and the humidity condensate which is crew <hes> exhaled breath has a lot of humidity in it as well sweat we collect all of that <hes> and we process that to potable water and it's very it sounds gross but it's actually very clean water we actually we monitor. Its quality continuously <hes> to make sure that it's it's good you know for crew to drink and and they seem to like it. You know i i heard that <hes> and and you can probably confirm that this is true. If the the potable water the water that the the astronauts are drinking on space station is actually relatively cleaner than average water that we drink on her. Yes yeah that is awesome and it's coming from urine which is especially especially important. <hes> i believe you're in is actually the the largest source of recycled water is that right that is right about half about half okay so but it's yeah the rest of it is from multiple sources including some of our as we'll talk about later regenerative systems that recover some some some water <hes> from the air. We'll talk about later yeah yeah so so the basics of of a successful environmental control system on the space station is dealing with <unk> air water for the most part yes for the most part right yeah okay so so before we get into an i'm kinda wanted to go into detail of all of these systems and exactly what they're doing but before we do that you you know. This is where we are now. Obviously we're we're we're i would say. We're fairly good at it. We're fairly good at sustaining this environment in space. Yeah i mean we've had crew onboard s almost twenty years continuously so <hes> yes we've gotten good at it the hard part regenerative piece where it will talk about his been up there for about ten years and we it's. It's difficult difficult. There's a lot of <hes> fluids flowing from one system to the other. There are a lot of challenges there but we've learned a lot and that's going to help us. <hes> both continue operating branding i assassin then onto the next thing out of of low-earth orbit to the next to the moon or mars or wherever we go interesting so so ten years so so there's there's a there's a starting point. Obviously we had to start somewhere where where did the international space station start and then how to devolve to to get to that regenerative system to ted here right so when we initially launched the modules to you space <hes> there were no less support systems initially and so we relied on at the time the space shuttle which brought up the u._s. modules <hes> and then as we added modules those also came with the life support systems so that was the point in time where we could actually have permanent habitation of the space station was when we added those life support court systems. The first ones were for the most part the things that are what we call a quick time to effect so the c._o. Two were device. You need to remove that <hes> quickly again. It has to be continuous or oscar can be affected very quickly. <hes> and i would say we gotta supply oxygen. We did that with tanks for a very long time mostly from the shuttle as a a resupply vehicle <hes> so we added co two removal oxygen supply and then temperature and humidity control. That's another aspect we didn't talk about by. The way is comfortable. Atmosphere part of living in a house is having a controlled environment so good temperature. That's really comfortable and humidity levels that are comfortable so it's another aspect so we added those to the i._s._s. <hes> to make things comfortable crew and they were living and then we evolved to the water processor the urine processor <hes> the oxygen generation system that creates oxygen from water <hes> and then we had some additional will talk about this body which which takes <hes> takes in co two and hydrogen and creates water out of it so <hes> <hes> that's how we that's kind of how evolved yeah so yeah. There's there's a lot that we want to talk about obviously because there's a lot of elements to this so so let's just get right into it and i think one of the most important elements that you that you know that right up front and especially when we talk to john lewis about the orion systems which is a much smaller cabin and how they have to do with that. One of the first things that you have to consider cetera is getting rid of that c._o. Two yes so how does that work now. How do we get rid of carbon dioxide on space dish. <hes> we use endorsement beds leads with a material called zeolite that is has a strong desire to absorb co two so we've got we've got the zeolite material packed in a abed and we flew air through it basically before that we take out a little bit of the water because it the zeolite affected by water negatively so we pass the air with c._o. Go through these beds and that zeolite just grabs onto the c._o. Two and then the comes back out and it's lower co two and that's how we scrub the atmosphere of <hes> of the c._o. Two filter basically but the problem is you're gonna fill that filter up and so to get rid of that <hes> to get rid of it on that filter we actually expose musil temperature we expose these beds to vacuum and that actually or low pressure and that drives the c o two off of the zeolite and we want it to space space or we use it to process further further on in regenerative system <hes> and so there are two of these beds and one of them is always removing the c._o. Two and one of them is always he's getting rid of it and defending it overboard so to to the processor so there's always one of them. They're they're out a phase right into their. There's one of them. That's always absorbing <hes> the c._o. Two from the atmosphere are they in the same place of the space station. Yes so there are yes each of the we have two two full systems because it's such an important function <hes> it's called the cedar other carbon dioxide removal assembly. There are two one of them's in node three and one of them's in the u._s. Lab <hes> yes. Each of those cedras has two beds inside of it that are out of phase and operating to continue continue to absorb versus these or get rid of that that c._o. Two i see so so they're basically next to each other ones on the inside this one getting rid of the c._o. Two and at the same time there's another one <hes> just venting venting an off switch and then they switch yeah because it's basically like cleaning the filter essentially okay <hes> yeah. How does that work is that is that an automatic thing. Is that something that needs crew. Re <hes> interaction or no the system has a controller attached with it to it that that <hes> it knows what to do and win so it switches between those beds on a planned basis automatically okay okay <hes> these these these beds that have <hes> zeolite zeolite zeolite <hes> do they need to be switched out every once in a while just kind of like a dirty dirty filter so yes we've <hes> we've learned a lot about these beds over time <hes> they they clog with some particulate. We'd get some dust just coming off of the zeolite material so we've had to replace the beds <hes> periodically to to regain the function and this is an area. We're focusing on for improvements for exploration <hes> because it's such a key important area. Oh okay what sorts of it what sorts of improvements need to be made for ex <hes> we're looking at some alternate materials inside those beds that don't have that issue i mentioned <hes> we are also looking at that same material and just containing the <hes> the dust a little bit better or reducing it by geometry's of zeolite things like that <hes> just learned a lot about the details of these systems and you know little little little tweaks you can make that make the operation more efficient more reliable <hes> so just a better better system to take to take far away from earth which is a lot you. You know a lot harder to to do. You have a lot of spears with you. Yeah not not thinking about better systems. I think i think one of them. If i'm not mistaken is called thermal amine scrubber yeah okay so so what is the is this exploration technology. It is in fact. It's on its way to i._s._s. Right now ngo eleven <hes> yes. It is a mean based instead of zeolite zeolite. The media that removes co two is called a mean in a mean bead <hes> and so it's a similar type setup where it has the two beds actually has four beds. It's <hes> but they're smaller and so they're they're instead of just to going back and forth. There's four going back and forth faster it just may maybe maybe a little bit more efficient. I say we're going to find out <hes> but but yes so that one <hes> we're we're. We're going to test it and we're gonna see. Does it have any other of these similar types of concerns the you mean beads are the same as in the orion c._o. Two removal device oh really yeah so so this goes back to your point about you know the the international space station as a as a test-ban right you know like when we were thinking about exploring even further out you know we're talking about this gateway. We're talking about lunar exploration while we have the international space station. Let's check check out some of these important things just like for example carbon dioxide scrubbing which is one of the most important elements of keeping crew members live in space and test out this possibly more efficient technology. That's what you're saying. We're gonna we're gonna check it out. What's the better we're going to fly. It and we're gonna turn it on and we're gonna see what happens. We're also going to fly to other technologies. <hes> um that are a bit different. One of them is just like that. Cedric i mentioned but but improved <hes> and we're going to test those as well and then. We'll have a lot of data to make a good choice for <hes>. I'm for expiration perfect perfect and that's you said that's coming up right now. I mean we're recording this in what april now and <hes> at this time april eighteenth the north of prominence on its wait space station so by the time we released this yeah we'll we'll see we'll see what else they will be operating by that point very very interesting. Now this is again. Just one element of the environmental control is is carbon dioxide scrubbing. You said there was a couple of elements that get up there. I want to skip ahead to. I think one of one of the things that everybody wants to know about. Is you talk about recycling urine on the space station. This is a huge thing and it's it's not you know urine is just about half the story. There's other sources of water that it's recycling into potable drinkable water so what is the system this water reclamation system right so it takes <hes>. We have a microgravity compatible toilet. That's it's where it all begins which is harder than it sounds. You know you know how ground toilet works right uses gravity heavily we don't have that so we use air to entrain to pull the urine down into hoes and then we've got a rotary separator that spinning and it separates <hes> the liquid from the gas and that's very important in a for pumps and things like that that's one of the challenges of microgravity in general is having liquids and gases in the same place they don't you know on earth. You got like a carbonated beverage. Let's say those bubbles rise and they go into the atmosphere and they're gone. What does it work in space. They just sit there and they just stay together so so you got to actively separate them and that's what the toilet really. That's the heart of the toilet is disputing separator that separates out so anyway we get the urine and and we've pre-treated it because we wanted to keep it from growing fungus and things like that very important yup to keep everything viable so we send that to the urine processor and that uses as i mentioned mentioned same problem here though we're trying to basically distill off good water and leave behind all the stuff hard to do in space so we use again rotation we use a rotary stiller using vapor compression distillation which basically means <hes> were distilling at low pressures and high temperatures. Basically it's used on the ground to <hes> but we we've used it. We've modified it to be this rotary version. <hes> anyway it it it <hes> puts the urine on this surface of this rotating drum. That's what the urine processor does and then the heat mix it evaporate and then we collect the humidity which is fairly clean at that that point not drinkable but fairly clean condense it and we send it to the next stage processor the brine which is the salt. They're left behind all the stuff <hes> we right now. Now we put it into storage containers. We're going to work on that for expiration to get more water out of that that brian. We got a new system that will fly early twenty twenty two i._s._s. and will demonstrate a brian processor. It'll it'll remove the residual water. That's in that brian so we can also process that the further further stay processing okay so a couple and that's that yucky stuff so the yucky stuff instead of going straight to storage which i guess would be discarded discarded discard today as yet would go. I guess through another system and squeeze out just a little bit more water. That's right okay yeah right now and this is a technology that has been improving approving a constantly over the years <hes> four reclaiming that water for getting as much water out of this thing as possible potable water something you could turn into something usable and i think we're at ninety percent now. Yes total water recovery. I assess has ninety percent okay and so ten percent is getting dumped overboard and so that's that's not good enough for mars. We'd like to do for mars. Transit ends at mission. We'd like to do closer to ninety eight percent and that just means we take a lot less resupply water with us as i mentioned earlier waters very heavy and so we want to recycle as much which is we can <hes> so okay yeah right now the the situation for for the for the yucky stuff you take the stuff that gets it goes you said a storage container and then we're the crew puts them on a cargo vehicle and sends it away. Yeah it comes down as with the rest of the trash. She gets burned up in the atmosphere. Okay now. There's water in there. We want to get that back. That's right yeah. That's that's the key getting that extra eight percent <hes> so so again. This is just for water reclamation ninety percent of the water of reclaiming that water water <hes> urine. This processor you're talking about is is just a small part of the story whereas all the other water coming from and put back in as i mentioned we <hes> you have to perform humidity control in the in the modules to make sure it's comfortable for the crew and also needs to be at a certain level for the equipment so we don't have any issues there <hes> so <hes> it comes from the cruise the cruise byproducts so their breath. They're sweat <hes> we've also got payloads that create humidity <hes> we've got stored water that some of the water comes through the bag and comes into the atmosphere so we've gotta make sure we control that and and then the body a process which will talk about <hes> creates water creates water at the elementary level and then we actually process it again to <hes> to potable water yeah drinking. That's a huge part of the story so so back to humidity yeah. I though i'm guessing there's a there's a central area where where that takes place where it's at sexually taking away the humidity and turning it putting it back into the water system is a fans to bring all the humidity yes <hes>. We actually have a one of these. It's called condensing heat exchanger so it uses low temperature cooling water across a metal surface which if you've ever had a you know cold drink on a table in houston or anywhere else <hes> in the summer right. It's gonna condense on the outside. It's the same idea it's you know water from the atmosphere condenses on those surfaces because the the do point locally is is at a level that it's gonna condense so we basically we we <hes> we condense the water on these services and then we again rotary separator because we've got aaron liquid at the same location we suck it out with a rotary separator in then we put that in it's an tubes send that to the water processor okay and is that is that the other half the humidity. Yes okay for the most part yes yes. It's your in in its distill it and then we've got that basically the humidity condensate collected anything else in the air. All those things together are called wastewater wastewater and we process the wastewater in the water processor. Okay now on top of this was less go into <unk> now this pulling the existing water any source of currently existing while their urine and humidity and sweat and all this stuff bring it back in recycling it and getting ready for a drink against subodh ta though is a system of actually recreating water from different sources. How does that work okay so we start with back to seattle removal briefly <hes> we instead of venting dot c._o. Two to space we use it. We compressed we we pull on it with a compressor and put it into a tank. 'cause we save it and then somebody takes co two. It also takes takes hydrogen. That's generated in the oxygen generator and we'll talk about that. There's a there's a part of the oxygen generator. That's hydrogen so we take hydrogen and c._o. Two and there's a catalyst inside the saliva that combines those two together and the product is methane and water so you're literally taking c. You know carbon oxygen hydrogen mixing them up and you get you know c h four which is methane and h. Two o. and that's how that's how that that works so the methane today is vented overboard as well <hes> but it could be potentially used as fuel for future spacecraft. We also might try the process it further to improve the efficiency of the body a process but that water is then sent also part of the wastewater that gets processed to potable wow and this is a part of the system or is this just a test element at this point. This is a part of this system. We don't count on it <hes> as far as our water our supply we we make sure we've got enough in our stores <hes> just in case but it is it is it had been running for many years. We actually brought it down about a year ago. We had some <hes> it was older. It had run for a while. We wanted to learn from it so brought it down. We tore it apart. We're learning all kinds of things from it. We're going to upgrade it. We're gonna makes design changes. <hes> reflect that also to test it for expiration purposes okay yeah and this and the does that include the oh you know put the methane part of actually potentially using their or we just still focusing on the water part. We're looking into the methane part as well. It's a different system kim. I say it'll be next to this body yeah yeah. It sounds like everything's kind of feeding off of each other right. You're pulling from the c._o. Two scrubber to get a little bit of that oxygen. That's the important part from <hes> from the oxygen generation which you know obviously you need the oxygen in the air but that hydrogen right now mix it all together so so the idea is to close the loop as much as possible civil society. Don't waste anything. Everything has a purpose that is awesome and even yeah even the methane to why you know ejecting it now but sure that could be that could be definitely something to us all right. Let's go to the oxygen generation then <hes> you know this is we skipped over that part but it's important hydrogen being fed in for this about the system but how does the oxygen itself get generated yep so <hes> this takes the potable water that we've created from the the water recycling <hes> we feed that a to a set of a specifically a stack of electrolysis cells. This is the opposite of a fuel cell so it takes water in we feed it energy electricity and it basically splits open the hydrogen the water into hydrogen and oxygen and so the oxygen goes into the cabin even for crew to breathe and the hydrogen gets separated from the water and then the hydrogen is sent to this body or vented if somebody either like like today it's not there while we're fixing those problems rosalie simple then i mean the oxygen is coming from water. Yes yeah that's it so where's the nitrogen come from <hes> you mean in the atmosphere the nitrogen trajan and right now we supply nitrogen and tanks. There's no real way to generate you know nitrogen from any other source so yeah we've we fly high pressure nitrogen in tanks that then we just bleed off slowly as we need it. The atmosphere at it's for the most part c. level type <hes> atmosphere competition. We're at fourteen point seven psi by about seventy percent nitrogen twenty twenty nine percent issue <hes> oxygen there you go yeah and that's and that's important for this seventy percent nitrogen twenty percent oxygen seventy nine percent okay okay and then the rest of it's just trace c._o. Two and other trace could get a little stuff yeah yeah. This is th that's important for the the health of the crew right. You know we one hundred percent oxygen. I don't i think we would we would want for something continuously habit right and that has to do with i think a lot of safety concerns right exactly right <hes>. We've learned throughout history that we don't want pure oxygen in a spacecraft. It's it can be flammable right any little mistake with any electrical device. A spark of some kind could ignite pure oxygen right so we keep it we keep it at atmospheric levels like we have on the ground for the most part yeah now those those nitrogen well. How how often are we are resupplying the nitrogen <hes> it depends. Are you said we also use it in a couple of systems to you know flesh things out if we need. It's very nitrogenous inert. It doesn't react with things so we can use it to flush. Flush something out if it's hazardous or whatever <hes> so we were. We supply a couple times a year. Okay on on these cargo vehicles like n._g._o. Eleven for example would be a type the vehicle that would resupply nitrogen. Yeah is is nitrogen a topic of discussion for for exploration to <hes>. I think we would likely <hes> <hes> resupply with tanks again. Just have a storage of it sitting there ready to to be introduced when needed yeah because it's not like the you know this closed loop system where you using other elements. We're talking hydrogen oxygen for the most part. You got a little bit of methane but yeah nitrogen of its own. That's interesting <hes> so how how 'bout <hes> right now we're talking about almost closed loop systems and we're talking about mainly the importance of air and water in this environment and maintaining those we're getting to that ninety percent but what about you know the is nitrogen is one thing seems like that needs to be resupplied but the water. How often do we need to resupply that. <hes> it's also variable variable that's exactly right and also i is challenging because we have different crew sizes is in the crew changes and then you know some drink more than others <hes> we might have more payloads using water than we had before so it really does vary same kind of thing a couple times a year. We fly several tanks to resupply <hes> our water system and we've got a new system on board. That's automating some of that water management. <hes> that's coming online soon. <hes> that will it just allows us to manage from the ground where the water is and <hes> it helps up zero it will help a lot yes so the idea idea for for exploration as as efficient as possible so you don't really have to rely on resupply at least as much it. Probably you know over time. Eventually you're going to need to restock and even with nitrogen nitrogen is just going to be something you need to. You need to think about <hes> but yeah yeah. It's a basically limit that use what you have to as an maximize is that use. It seems like a lot of this actually can be used. Can you be used here on earth to waste resources when you can recycle them is is their applications to earth as well. Oh absolutely absolutely across nasa right. We we have a lot of earth applications for the things we do. Oh yeah that rotary compression distillation we talked about is used <hes> in third world countries where they don't have clean water. It's it's used in some of these standalone. <hes> water processors that that help you know villages and whatnot in africa cetera. <hes> had this clean water source so <hes> yes. There's definitely applications. It's not as <hes> it's not. It doesn't pay well to process. You're an old way to potable on the ground people times. They'll oh you know take urine and processed to a certain state and then it can be released into the rivers and streams and then we go pull rivers and streams and process that to <hes> potable water so oh let the earth do a little bit of helping us yeah yeah yeah definitely <hes> <hes> that actually reminds me. I think there was there was a part of the spot ta system where you know we're we're actually taking these elements and creating water but i think there was a part where the the water itself that is being created is not quite drinkable at the or potable at at that point. It needs to go through mixed with some other water as well as at right yeah. We've chosen to go that route it. <hes> we as i mentioned we verify verify the quality we check the quality regularly if we were to take the body water and make it portable directly we have to check that quality all the time <hes> and it just isn't worth worth the extra overhead that we've had to add with different sensors and things to drink it directly. It also helps dilute the wastewater a little bit meaning. The contaminant level is a little bit lower which makes makes it easier for the water processor to <hes> to operate so so you know going back to the idea of the international space station asian being a testbed being a place to to not only just maximized the efficiency of these systems. You know we've been increasing that reclamation right now. We're trying to get to ninety eight percent for for exploration what are is. It seems like we've gone over a lot of these elements ready. We want to improve the carbon dioxide scrubbing being. We want to improve the water reclamation. You know what what are the elements we need. Give give us like a picture of the elements. We need for a successful life support system for exploration okay <hes> i think as you mentioned it's it's closing that loop as much as possible muscle to utilize all the available resources that we can and keep those in a loop you know not lose those in trash or or or whatnot so that is a that's a key because then you're you mentioned you know it's hard to resupply to mars. You basically have to take everything with you if you don't have it. You don't have it right. You're six to nine months ons two years away from earth so you gotta have it <hes> so that we want to <hes> reduce the reliance on you know taking stored water and gas. We want to increase the reliability reliability and that's a big area as well because that drives spares and how many you have to take if you're <hes> c._o. Two removal device continues to break use. We need to continue to fix parts. You don't have you only have so many. I should say so <hes> and we've seen <hes> we've gathered a lot of data on assess about this reliability liability concern and that's an area. We're really focusing on trying to improve <hes> for expiration and that's what we intend to test on. I._s._s. is run them for run. These devices like that thermal amine scrubber for years. If possible to learn how does it not only. How does it perform functionally. How how well does it remove c._o. Two but but also how do those components operate <hes> for a long period of time in the right environment in microgravity being continuously operated right. It's that that's the idea around. The idea is is tested now. <hes> see how how it works for years so that way when you go to other planets. It's going to work for years which is going to be the length of those missions. That's right yeah you can't turn around and if something breaks you gotta go to the shop you know traveling back to the international space station now. How are we with the reliability. How often do we have to you know fix all these different components this this co two the oxygen generation the water reclamation. What's maintenance like <hes>. It's a tell you it's it's been higher than we were hoping for as far as the the amount that we had to replace and that's why we're trying to address these issues <hes> <hes> particularly the c._o. Two removal device has been been a little bit has required more maintenance than we were hoping for and that's why we've got those three different technologies that we're testing <hes> because we want to be more reliable fix that dust issue issue. I talked about that really has caused a lot of trouble and we didn't see it on the ground. We tested it for a good time. It's just it just behaves differently in space with the micro gravity environment etc so that's why testing on i assess is so critical yeah yeah exactly yeah because you you can try all you want down here on earth but it's not until you actually get into microgravity. You actually realized some of these. Distances are differences. Sometimes you just gotta do it. The other aspect of our as a testbed is that you talked about how you know c._o. Oh to flows from the device to the body a hydrogen cones from the oxygen generator to the severity those connections those <hes> you know the fluid flowing from one to the other means that that contaminants if they happen to be you know hold up with this yo to for example the carbon dioxide can go with it and that can cause issues to the downstream systems. We've seen a little bit of that in our experience and that's also what we're really trying to learn from and and fixed at least at least characterized so we can plan for it so that's it's really critical to is everything operating together in the same place the same environment that is as close as we can get to mars type mission. That's what our international space station laboratory testbed yeah. That's why we we test all of these different elements. You know it's it's it's so funny. <hes> there's a couple of things. First of all on the ground has to be my favorite phrase for for talking about space stuff because only a nasa do with us on the ground. This is just oh. I'm not talking about stuff in and space r. e. r. on earth by the way i'm talking about stuff in space so i have to specify yes this thing that's taking place on the planet earth one of my favorite things <hes> but it's also funny you're talking about how these just little things like like contaminants in the pipes and the way these things it's almost like taking an exam and if you don't get one hundred fail that's kind of what we're dealing with here improving that reliability getting that hundred percent on that exam for for making the system pretty much perfect right ask to be because we're crews relying on it survive. That's the difference i think when it comes to exploring it and sustainable presences presence on different planets planets and the moon is we touch and go thing is one because he just bring tanks of whatever you need and you just use it for a couple of days. You're gone but sustaining that presence. That's really where it gets real tough. So what are we are. We are we taking some of this technology our working with the with the gateway program from the international space station and trying to take this and see what it's like on the on the lunar orbiting platform absolutely just like we you know the i is a is a you know it came from our experience in apollo and shuttle in the same way gateway is gonna take experience from the i._s._s. right and we're going to inform their decision in making what systems go there <hes> you know and and how we operate them <hes>. We're gonna learn from our experience yeah yeah. There's a lot lots. Come a lot of work to be done in the future and you know as as as as we have the international space station. Let's use it to the maximum as much as we can possibly possibly use it. There's there's benefits on the ground like you were mentioning. There's on the ground there yup <hes> there's benefits to going further out into space so it's just absolutely fascinating. This was a fantastic overview of the environmental control systems all these different components that need to work together perfectly <hes> <hes> to to really come together either one. I think that i missed on and i wanna make sure we cover before we wrap up today. You mentioned that you know he humidity control you mentioned the air and stuff like that temperature was when i think we just sort of glossed over was the system to to really maintain that nice comfortable temperature in space. Okay we <hes> we use <hes> these <hes> liquid cooling loops <hes> which are basically a series of pipes with cold fluid in it <hes> we use. There's an external loop on the i._s._s. Plus an internal meaning there are tubes outside the space station. They contain a more hazardous fluid. That's much better at conducting heat <hes> and then there's an internal <hes> set of pipes hypes that use it. There's actually water just treated water so we don't get microbial growth <hes> but that's internal to the vehicle <hes> where the crew is and that actually interfaces says with <hes> different systems to take heat away so all the processes we talked about the water processor toilet all that stuff generates heat right as as part of the process and so we have to get rid of that heat a lot of it is through these cold tubes <hes> some of it is just heat radiates into the atmosphere and so from there we actually we use that same condensing heat exchanger that only does it remove humidity it removes heat as well <hes> so <hes> so in crew can select what temperature they they want. It's it's kind of your thermostat at home. I like seventy two. You might like seventy four actually told the opposite but but you know you can pick what you want and the system control to that temperature so crooked turn down there temperature when they're sleeping and they can turn it back up during the day. They happened to gold summit. Tell me if i'm interpreting this right. The temperature sure control system is mostly about removing heat. Yes okay yes. Oh this. The the station runs hot with everything running so we just basically a getting rid of it right. See that's interesting because like space can get cold at times but i guess it's just a systems and just the way that you know that that works. That's how you have to control the temperature. Space itself is cold and so that's useful thing we can. We actually radiate that heat off into space and so that's how it leaves the space station there you go right if we didn't do anything that physician would get too hot and it wouldn't it wouldn't work. It would be very uncomfortable. Yeah they <hes>. I think it's seventy two seventy four very very comfortable temperature. I know i would it'd be very comfortable there too. I think that does hit everything though so laura thank you so much for going over this this was an excellent snapshot at what it takes to to sustain the a human presence in space and was impressive especially about the international space station and is as been going strong for for very very long time which is very important whenever whenever we take this technology and go somewhere else we know what we have to do. We're getting better and better all the time so thanks for going over this. I really appreciate it. Thank you in a aw. Hey thanks for sticking around so we talked with miss laura about <hes> the life support systems aboard the international space station and what's being tested for traveling even further out into space. We've talked about environmental control and life support before <hes> on episode seventy nine livable space base with john lewis and you can see how these systems are just a little bit different by listening to that episode <hes> talking specifically about the systems aboard ryan. We also had an interesting in conversation with stan love for episode fifty. Three episode was called. Mars is hard. Here's why and he addressed the life support systems for exploration and exploring mars as as well as a bunch of other reasons that makes deep space exploration so difficult <hes> check out what we're doing on the international space station nasa dot gov slash i._s._s. also the international national space station pages of facebook twitter instagram and if you have a question about any of these topics use the hashtag ask nasa on your favorite platform and use houston we have a podcast in your question to submit minute right here to the show so this episode was recorded on april eighteenth two thousand nineteen thanks to alex perryman nor moran and pat ryan thanks to atalanta cameron for helping hoping with today's questions and thanks to lure shaw for coming on the show. We'll be back next week.

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Expedition 1

NASACast Audio

1:10:25 hr | 6 months ago

Expedition 1

"HOUSTON, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space. Center episode one, Sixty, eight expedition one I'm Gary Jordan and I'll be your host today on this podcast we bring in the experts scientists, engineers astronauts to let you know what's going on in the world of human spaceflight twenty years ago on November second, two, thousand, a crew of three space ferrers arrived at the International Space Station with the mission to bring the new orbital complex to life we call these missions expeditions and the crew was expedition one. The trio was NASA's William Shepherd Commander of Expedition One and Russian cosmonaut Sergei Krikalev and Yuri Zenko both seasoned veterans of long duration missions aboard the Russian space station Mir that was an orbit. These three spent a hundred and thirty six days aboard the Space Station and set the course for what would be an unbroken streak of human presence in space. We, like to tout. If you're at this point younger than twenty, you've never lived in a world where there haven't been humans in space at any given point in your life. To get to that point where human started inhabiting the Space Station was not an easy thing. So to tell the full story of Expedition One, we have William Shepherd goes by SHEP. He was a manager of the Space Station Program, a seasoned veteran and space and the commander of Expedition One to the station. We talk about what it took to get to expedition one, the mission itself and how the Space Station has grown into what it is today. So here we go expedition one with Bill Shepherd. Enjoy. County. Court. Chef thanks for coming on Houston we have a podcast today. Appreciate your time. Yeah. Happy to be with the all my all my friends at NASA. there. And I wanted to start with this. We're taking a snapshot here where we are twenty years past when you first arrived on the International Space Station and set the course for continuous human presence. What are your initial thoughts right off the bat of achieving this milestone? Well, I'm kind of amazed that between NASA and hall the International Partners that we frankly that we've got gun Many many people at the outset of the International Space Station program. decided it was mission impossible and it was never going to happen but The team has proved them wrong. Well, that's perfect. Well, let's take a deep dive then Feel like you're the perfect person to talk to about this, just just diving into exactly that what were those obstacles that made it seem like mission impossible. So let's start with the landscape of of NASA and international partnerships in the early ninety s when we were just kind of getting the International Space Station program and the thought of what would be the international space station up and running. Well, the idea for space station is not at all new. certainly even before world. War Two people were talking about. Humans traveling in space and what we would do there And I think von Braun had many sketches There Are Walt Disney shows on rockets going to space stations, but really it got off the ground if you will. both in the US and in the Soviet Union with manned laboratories we had skylab. And then the Russians had a number of sal, you space stations, and then eventually one that they called Mir President Reagan. Started Space Station. Freedom. and. This was in the early in the middle of the eighties. And by Nineteen Ninety two. the administration's had changed and The problem was that NASA had spent almost eleven billion dollars on space station freedom. and. It had taken Eight years in not one pound of flight hardware was to show for it, and so congress was really upset. With the Space Agency, and was getting ready to cancel the program. So really ISS. International Space Station Program. Was a big change that that pulled the iron out of the fire and reorganized things and. That's Cata Pass that we started on twenty years ago, and that's where we are today. Well, let's talk about some of those original plans you mentioned space station freedom. There are a number of other space stations. That were actually flying at that time Mir included Let's take a dive into the shuttle program and the original plans for shuttle. As a as a vehicle to construct things like space stations. All NASA space shuttle was actually something the NASA promoting even before the end of. The Apollo Missions I think John Young was on the moon talking about. What a great thing a space shuttle would be an encouraging. The politicians to support it. but one of the purposes of the shuttle was to be able to build large things in or orbit. So besides carrying astronauts space and doing experiments and ev as in robotics and whatnot. One of the main reasons why we needed a space shuttle was so we can build big stuff in orbit and It was kind of in competition with the Russians. Didn't know what the Russians were GonNa do they eventually built their own? space shuttle and flew one time. But that was the landscape and I think You know to me There was a lot of celebration and ceremony around the retiring the shuttles and the ones that got transported to the museums. But for me that was really sad. Stories of days because this was the end of. at least United States astronauts. Flying into space and coming back in a vehicle that had wings on it that could land like an airplane I I still think that's a tremendous capability and we've pretty much given that up. And and think about what it accomplished. You know even even before the International Space Station launched its first element we did have. Cooperation with this space station that you're talking about Mir the Russian space station where we had. An opportunity to work together with. Russia doing the shuttle Mir program and not only using the shuttle but also understanding the operations I guess behind long duration spaceflight on Mir. If you look back, even President Kennedy in the earliest days of. Our human spaceflight effort talked about. The political and diplomatic benefit of working with the Soviets on space. And Apollo Soyuz in nineteen seventy five was a result of that and It took us a while after that another two decades to really get. close to the Russian Federation and work together on space. Station. But. I think it's a very healthy thing for NASA for the country to be doing. We'll talk about those years I think around this time you were the International Space Station Program Manager You had a lot of oversight into you know this cooperation us and Russia to go from this idea of freedom International Space Station or space station freedom to this Cooperative International Space Station can you talk about some of those years? Well my original. Assignment from. The national administrator was to be on A. Basically. Study team that would look at what is the What, what's The executability? If you will the freedom program and if if it needed to look like something else what would that be? And I had I was a member of about ten men team and we studied that for about a month. And made recommendations. This was all Being driven by directives from the Clinton administration to figure out. What what was Nastase Future with the freedom program and and what were they going to do After the draft this study was over then I was the program manager basically handling several changes to what NASA was doing was. We were bringing the Russian Federation hint to the International. Space Station Partnership, which is a big deal the partnership had been formed. about six years earlier by international agreements. With the Canadian Space Agency, the European, Space Agency and the there are other involvements with the. There is some involvement with the Italian aerospace industry B- That group was already up and running and was initially very opposed to bring yet another partner end because in part. This would diminish everybody's availability for astronauts and research time on space electrical power, and you know all of those things that you've got to do to have a collaborative expedition or environment in orbit. So there was a lot of negativity Among the established partners to bring the Russians in. the Russians themselves. Were very difficult to deal with And that because they are or were bad people, but you have to look at space from a Russian standpoint. They launched the first satellite into space. And the first man to fly in space the first woman to fly in space they did the first facebook. They were the first to look at the back side of the. Moon. And there were quite a number of. Technological I if the Russians claim and they. To their from their point of view that they looked at the United States US Americans is coming in behind. their successes and trying to take some of the credit for it and I. Think There's some merit to that I. Mean we certainly. Approach doing space from from different directions. Technically but Russians are very proud. They've got a very strong legacy in the early days of. Humans. In space and I think initially, we did not the the Americans in particular. we did not respect that or appreciate that maybe as. As strongly, as we might assume, that was you know getting that getting behind that passed that was a big deal. In addition, there several of the things that were happening one was that budget for the. Space Station it was going to be called at that time. was quite constrained The design of freedom had to be changed. For a number of reasons, it was too expensive. The assembly of the components had a lot of risk in it that we wanted to take out. We had Russian components that we had to. Integrate With this partnership that we had to manage and we had a complete. Restructuring of the Space Station program on the US side altogether NASA had ridden. Four prime contracts to various companies. In the United States to carry out freedom. And this was in the process of being condensed to a single prime contract. some of the contractors were not going to. Maintain the work content that they had originally won in the previous contract they're unhappy about that. And in addition Space Station program was going to be headquartered at one particular place in the country and there was a lot of. Arm Wrestling about where and which. Center or entity what's going to be in charge of that and ended up being Houston I was very happy about that because I was living in Houston but. these are some of the dynamics were going on at the time. Very respected Japanese partner who was In a lot of these discussions of the. Initial space. Station, partnership came up to me one day and he said Shop This is nineteen ninety early nineteen ninety-three. He said Shep You guys are doing your sixth redesign of the space station. You're changing the contract around you chopping pieces of the hardware off you're running short on money and you're. Changing the contract all around and you're moving headquarters to Houston. I don't think you're GONNA make it. And that was that was preseason guy and that was his expert opinion in the middle of Nineteen ninety-three and so I didn't say anything to him. I didn't want to be disrespectful but. I thought to myself I thought you know we've got. A real legacy of of how to do hard things at NASA. They've got a great team working on this and Just stand by we're going to show you that this can get done. Shed there seems to be just. Insurmountable odds against actually making this thing work. So how how did you navigate through all of these obstacles? What? How did you integrate with the international park partners with Russia to actually make the international? Space. Station. Become a thing. I don't think it's a simple answer. I think a lot of people. Own Parts of that story I I do think that One of things that it was really important was I stepped down from being a program manager 'cause I. The program manager has over splutter responsibilities to do A lot of the congressional liaison keep the funding for the program headed in the right direction. hand holding for a lot of. Higher Level forums, and I wanted to do the more focused on the technical work. So I was like what took on the role as a deputy program manager to do that? But That said. We started having pretty aggressive exchanges. Groups of people in Moscow talking to our Russian counterparts and having Russians in Houston and I think that was really the thing that made The. International Space Station? Program go. The, Russians. Came in Pan certainly did things differently than what we did. But but in the end The design and how was implemented. Added a Lotta Capability to the station and I'm probably jumping ahead. We can talk about this later in the podcast. But nobody at the time realized that how important having? multiple countries, multiple launch assets that could. Support, the station in orbit and had. Particularly, the the Columbia. Disaster we would not have a space station if the Russians were not able to fly crews and material up to the ISS and I I, I. Don't think we specifically foresaw that in nineteen ninety-three. But the fact that many countries. The Europeans the Japanese and the Russians in particular could have an opportunity to launch to the station on their own. That was a big part of our design. So Oh Station has. Even as a program, it had a lot of moving parts it's hard to. Cover it all you know in a short discussion. Well we can. We can zoom in on on hardware because I think one of the things you mentioned with some of the early years is we were doing a lot of studies on on designing what would be a space station, but never had any hardware to show for it so. During the space station, there were that there was that development process of the initial hardware of the international space. Station. I know there's there's components like to. Those Aria was a joint effort How about some of those those early space station, hardware, designs, and processes But I think you have to back up one step and think about his there a culture or philosophy that says. not only what you design, but y you design it the way you do, and that was really the most interesting thing to me our. Previous. Freedom. design. was dependent. On. Some Hurley Assembly flights were we didn't have a lot of Cooling. Communications Electric Power. Other capability and gradually the station build out in those utilities if you will. became more robust, but several of the aspects of this support. To keep the station alive. had. If you will allow technical risks that they were gonNA survive. The period before we had redundancy. The Russians on the other hand designed. smaller. Modules they weren't in essence all. Up. Vehicles. And when they launched it, it had life support in had environmental control. It had fire suppression detect computers. And radios, it had solar-powered had thermal control had docking mechanisms all that stuff. So The analogy would be to. Having a house that you're building in the United States or the US side of the partnership. We lay the foundation and we'd get the the studs in. And frame everything out put the roof on and. Months into the construction you might have a place. You could roll out a cot. Sleep. And the the Russian approach was. Cleared the driveway and pull the winnebago up and you know open the door and those are two really different approaches to doing. you know human capable facilities in orbit. And I think there's a lot of merit to their Russian approach frankly. is maybe a bit simpler so. I guess around this time, you talked about stepping down from program manager at what point did you start gearing up for training for what would be the first expedition? Nine hundred ninety six the first crew. It was determined by. The program management talking to the space agencies in the various countries. that. At that time this summer of ninety six, the launch was supposed to be nineteen, Ninety, eight somewhere. In everybody was assuming that the training was going to be a year and a half or so maybe a little bit longer and that was historical reference from what it would take the train shuttle crews and what the Russians normally would do for their Soyuz training. So midnight nineteen, Ninety six, it was decided that naming a crew to go to the station would basically start driving. The the training folks to get their training mature. And know get started with crew training. So we got named They WANNA was. Believed was sometime in the fall of nineteen, ninety six. And we started our training essentially that winter. And it turned out that due to delays and hardware launch schedules. The crew did not ended up flying until almost the end of two thousand. So our training flow was About four years plus a little bit about twice what we had originally intended. Very. Tedious If you're training but you don't know when you're GONNA fly it's somewhat akin to crawling over broken glass once in a while but But we all understood that this was a developmental thing and nothing was going to be perfect and If I can say patients had to be somewhat of a virtue. I did have the pleasure of having Kathy Bolt on this podcast to talk about training and how it's evolved over time and she did mention training the expedition one crew, and one of the things she mentioned when you talked about being tedious one of the things you mentioned was There was this idea to train you to the system level to train you to know the whole International Space Station inside, and now how to switch all the buttons and and how everything worked in that training evolved over time because to a more general. Approach since the space station for the most part could be controlled from the ground. Did you did you find that some of those some of that tedious training was just knowing like every system on the space station inside out. Well I I WANNA commend. Kathy and all the people who worked on expedition one in particular. Did a great job training. But I think the reality that was Not. The. Easiest critic to train and that. Was True for a couple of reasons one was. particularly, Sergei curricula who was a enter engineer and he was basically our flight engineer on board. Both he and I had been in Italy involved in mirror to and all the nuts and bolts of the US side of the. ISS program so we knew a lot about the hardware. And so. The other thing was we knew when we flew. That although the the ideal case was the ground could do everything the reality was that they were not going to be able to. because. Particularly really in our flay. We only had direct communications line of sight. From the to the ground, and we had to have a ground station relay. Hold the calm to Houston or Moscow. So this meant that her coverage was not gonna be anything like. What we have now on ISS or what we were used to. On spatial with the tedious relay satellite. So we had periods we were GONNA have periods on it. Sometimes four to six hours long. Where we weren't talking anybody and nobody on the ground could see what was happening on. ICS. So with that in mind you got to step back and say, well, am I going to wait for the ground? Tell me what to do when something Something big is up for my going to figure out. What I have to do the interim and Try and you know prevent it from getting worse or fix it make it better. So we were pretty hard over that. The right way for us to train has the first crew in probably the early crews up there was to know as much as we could about everything because the chances were good then in a big crunch up there. We were going to be on her own. That's that's why we did. Very very critical thing to to be able to do for sure I wanna take a step back. And Zoom in on the fact that this is the first expedition, which means you are going to be up in space for much longer than some previous previous shuttle missions. So Expedition One was one hundred and thirty six days. Let's take a step back to your shuttle missions and talk about what they were like, and then how that compared to expedition one you have three listed for U. S. T. S. twenty-seven forty one and fifty to your experiences on those. Well they're all different flights. Twenty seven, forty, one, we're we're, pretty, short. up and down flights. Twenty seven high inclination permitted defense mission. The idea was to launch. swing the orbit around two fifty, seven degrees inclination fifty, seven degrees. And then as soon as we're ready put an object out into orbit and check it out and come back home. So. It was a great mission but. Almost stay up by the time you are. Really accustomed to where to look to see the ground and what the food was going to be like you were getting ready to land and come home sorta. The same thing on us he has forty one our big mission there was a planetary probe. built by the Europeans called Ulysses. that was A. Launch. Ulysses pretty interesting object at Carry the. Inertial upper stages and went to a trajectory that Senate over the back of Jupiter. And did that to give it an adjustment to its orbital inclination where it would fly. down in the Southern Hemisphere of the. Solar system and fly over the South Pole the sun. but again, Short mission up and down in a couple of days. Has It's fifty to launch day. Laser reflector satellite, but did about a week and a half of materials experiments, but that was pretty much it. So in contrast. To Russian crewmates Sergei in particular at spent a year. In, orbit on the Mir he was the. The Soviet cosmonaut who launched and came down a year later without a country because in the meantime. The Soviet Union had gone away and the Russian Federation than setup. So in your had experience on the mirror as well. So My Position has a low time flyer was not something that the Russians were particularly happy with. Well, then let let's talk about expedition one nine. Let's let's Let's zoom in on the training there I. Think what's one of the major differences is the vehicle that's GonNa take you to and from orbit all of your previous flights were on the space shuttle. Now, you're getting ready to learn everything about the Russian Soyuz. The Russians. Have had the Soyuz spacecraft since the sixties. And they had a legacy of training quite a number of foreign cosmonauts or astronauts from different countries has guests to ride on the Soyuz. So the mode of their training was that the Americans that showed up to work on space. Station. Where is it or there was started? On, a training floor that. Basically. saw them as guest cosmonauts. And we had a big problem with that because we said look we're going to be up there. We're not going to be in contact with the ground all the time limited number of crew and we've got a no no way What happens when this button doesn't work but maybe Y is something is. Impeding it or what's behind the bandler? What's going on at this thing needs to know or do to make it work and this is not really a Russian. Train their cosmonauts. But we said Hey This is a new ballgame and this is the way we wanna do it and. After many many battles with the training staff and The program managers we we? Made that happen and so You know big thing about training and Russia and for the Soyuz in particular was. All the Russian training. Wasn't Russian. We had lesson plans that were translated to English, and we initially started down the road saying, okay, we can. Sit there and with an interpreter looking at the translated script for the training, we can get what we need to get but. Soon became obvious. So we need to be really proficient in Russian so. Everybody from the US side that was training for Isis in Russia learned Russian and it had some other benefit and the big one was. Many of the people who were in the training flow as instructors had involvement in the Russian space program that went back. Ten Twenty thirty years. There were people there who had worked on sputnik and who had trained Erie Garin, and so these people were walking encyclopedias for. How the Russians did things and I thought you know I could talk to these people with interpreters but I really, WANNA. Know what they're thinking about why they're doing something a certain way I have to be able to talk to him in Russian. So that's what we did and it was not an easy part of training but it was necessary I think in hindsight I think everybody's really glad. That we were able to do that because it gave us a necessary insight into. How this other space entity? Works and thinks. And it's very interesting because all the astronauts I talked to today right before their launches. And I'm talking in the past couple of years. They always talk about you know Russian training. We're still doing it that a lot of them say it is one of the harder parts about training a lot of them with tech backgrounds able to understand that a little bit easier than maybe the Russian language. But still a very valuable part of what it is to be an expedition astronaut even today. One of the things that came out of that before we leave the language issue. It made me think of. How would I approach this? If, I was Japanese or if I was an Italian or The many other countries that want to be involved with helping to crew the station and I'm going you know for somebody who's Who doesn't have English or Russians the first language? It's it's double heart and I'm going. There's got to be a way that we can bridge that. With controls and displays and training material diagrams explain if you will what the crew has to deal with in such a way that. The need for complete. Textual understanding and what you're doing is reduced. and. So we created a graphic environment that's used on the ground using training us on displays on the space station. and today is is really part of how station is operated. And it was designed at the time to be. Somewhat. Universal. So people ask me. Once in a while they say shop well. One Hundred Years from now what do you? What do you think people will remember about the International Space Station? I say well. If. We're if we're really lucky they will. They will remember having heard the name but not much else about it. But I think one thing that will endure is this approach to having multinational crews who have to travel in space and do pretty complex things. This. kind of human interface is something that I think we started. I think it's GonNa last for a long time. Sarah Cool I wanna I wanNA jump over to. Your expedition and talk about the journey there. Because because now we're here twenty years later from from when you were getting ready. To launch. Talk about your experience I guess after training in biking or preparing for, launch. Well I would say it's not too different than what the US and American astronauts do between Houston and the Cape and the shuttle launches. you go down to bike and you're about three weeks before your launch for a practice countdown. And then. About five days before you fly, you show up again you know final checks and vehicle. The castle gets me to the booster rocket that goes out to the PAD. And then the launch countdown starts and. Morning of October thirty first get up early in the morning. Get a bite to eat. jumping the bus, go down to the Assembly area where we getting space suits and get those checked out. Take the bus out to the pad and get on the rockets so that That whole process was. I wouldn't say it's familiar but the the sequence and the steps involved were were very understandable to the Americans their I'd say the only difference really was. The Russians had set the the launch date and the liftoff time. About Four months in advance three or four months in advance. And that did not change. So we got out biking. kind of on the high desert very flat terrain almost no vegetation. This is. The middle of the fall you get up early in the morning and it's kind of kind of misty and foggy, and then the fog Kinda glisten a little bit. But at ten thirty in the morning, there was still about two hundred foot ceiling means you go two hundred feet up and you're up in the clouds nobody can see what's going on. The. Russians push the button lit the fuse. We launched boom up into the clouds away we went. Shuttle never would have flown in those conditions so You know that. I I think that says a lot about differences in how the to space cultures operate. Now about that right in the Soyuz. That was your first launch on a Soyuz vehicle. How did that compare shuttle? Nothing really bad. Say about it. I, think there's a lot of goodness in the vehicle and the castle itself there abort regimes. Where you can stop doing what you're doing and get to a safe place. They're they're really pretty good. the rocket itself I think when we flew. Soya's which is also called the booster rocket the Soyuz launcher. Had Been to the pad that we flew on and they had four, hundred, sixty one. Successful launches without a failure. or at least a fair threatened the crew and you know those are pretty good numbers and so Despite the fact that the inside of the vehicles extremely cramped. The couches are quite uncomfortable. The suits are obtained the but essentially new. -Absolutely. But you gotta ask yourself do you want do you what comfort or do you want robustness and reliability? I think for most people? That's an easy choice. That's right now was a longer journey I guess compared to what we're seeing nowadays with A. Six hour rendezvous you're were orbiting the earth for two days before actually rendezvous with the International Space Station and finally getting ready to enter. Can you describe that journey? That was historically how the Russians plan there. Launch. Dynamics. If you will we were launching in the plane of the station. But well behind it and below it in every route that we go around because we're we're. Circling they're somewhat faster were gradually catching up when we get within striking distance the last day we do little little burn. Zip Up to the station and doc I, think that was a consequence of. The the ability of the Russians to have really good knowledge. Of were the Soyuz vehicle was and where the target vehicle was and what the potential errors could be. And so Driving around in orbit to do docking burns up a fair amount of fuel. You only have so much. So I think they were. Initially, very conservative about how they plan their flights. up until about maybe six years ago. that was the way they did it but then they started doing rapid rendezvous within four to six hours to catching up. It's just a little different play. it. It takes more precision, but somehow the Russians were able to change that. Now. When you actually docked to the International Space Station, this was going to be the first I. Guess A. Term Crew you had yet stf eighty eight before that visit the International Space Station but what were some of those things you had to do to get the space station ready for continuous human habitation? Well the docking was automatic was controlled by Mission Control Moscow I'm sure that. People have seen the videotapes of the down link and all that we drive into a docking cone. And In, once we get the hook. So the probe in the right spot in the cone couples which get flipped and the to. rings of the spacecraft get made it together and sealed So We open the hatch we check the pressure everything's good open the hatch One of my first job was to sample the. Composition the atmosphere make sure nothing toxic was in there. in surrogate were running around with checklists. There was stuff that they had to do, but I guess the biggest. Panic if you will that we had on our First Day docked was. We alive precedent that was scheduled for. About, three or four at the end of our day, but three or four hours after we had docked. and. It required getting a television camera out getting some lights wearing everything up during everything on. Assembling in the service module looking at the camera and then doing live down like to Moscow and we could not find. The cord that we needed to hook the camera. To the port where it was going to be on the radio system just frantic for. About an hour looking for the Dang thing and we finally got it. Done but that was that was pressure. Well. You know you talked about going through the hatch and getting everything prepared. But what was going through my mind is actually entering through the hatch now I know. Today we see Cruz being welcomed by crew members that are already on board station since we do have continuous presence but you being the Ones on board to start this continuous presence. Did you do anything special any sort of ceremony? Any any words even just between each other to really recognize that moment of entering the station for the first time Not, really. We did ask we were on the phone with Mr Cop Taboos head of the Russian Space Agency and Mr Goldman who was a necessary administrator they're both in mission control in Moscow. And each Each Russian crew that flew on a stage, the space station. Had Had their own call sign and it was generally one that stayed with various astronauts cosmonauts rather during their career. So. One astronaut would they're usually astronomical names like Mars or mercury or something like that? And you're it gets Inca who was the. Commander if you will for the the Soyuz capsule. His Russian. Call sign was Iran. and. One of the choices was going to be that during the mission, our expedition was going to be referred to as Iran. And your would be Iran one and circe would be who run to and I was probably going to be run three. And I did not like that for a couple reasons. So we kind of jumped the gun. and asked if we could use the radio call. Sign, Alpha. Space Station Alpha. And the the ground was Kinda apoplectic they said, okay for the President Radio Call Sign we'll call you that and That was a little bit of hubbub about that, and I think that that finally went away six or eight missions later, but people don't realize that. Not, all words in English translate well into Russian, and the same thing is true with the Russian words. To English and Ron Is the name of the planet Uranus, and so I saw that as probably public relations minefield that we didn't want to go in. Well. Let's talk about the. You're the first expedition. So I keep relating to the space station as I. Know it today, we're in a period of utilization the the mission is research. But I'm sure in the early years, your mission was getting station ready for research and getting it. There's Assembly efforts. Especially in the beginning years, and of course, you had to activate the space station get ready for future crews. Can you talk about some of your mission objectives in your multi-month stay? Exactly that we had initial work to. Get the oxygen generation system of the bigger tissue was the carbon dioxide removal system that. That had some hiccups getting started We had a number of systems that did not cower up correctly. Some of them had components that we're inoperable or one in particular multi ten connector pins were but. The work that we had for expedition one was troubleshooting all that and inserting tabby into slot B. will and we were all very hands on guys, and that's what we thought. We were GONNA be doing on orbit. We're very happy to be in orbit doing all that because that's what we trained for. So that was a really rewarding part of The I certainly the first half of our expedition I gotta say one thing about that. we we were told, and at least three times a day I can remember. Where we had come in and that particular piece of hardware was not functional or something is broken or wasn't working the way it was supposed to. And we say, okay fine what what's the grounds plan to fix this? And the Capcom would say, okay space station. We'll get back to you on that in about a day. Later, we'd get the read from the ground and they would say well, we've got that got the plan to fix. Whatever that thing is it's broken in and we said, okay, Great. What is it and they said, well, we're sending up spare as we said, great. When are they going to get here? She was. Six months after you guys leave and we said Whoa. So In all those cases that I can remember. after a couple of days, we have a discussion with Moscow or Houston and the discussion would be. Hey we see that console or that component it's up and running now can you can you give us Any words on what's going on and we would say look, we spent the last three days Sharon that thing apart at night trying to figure out why it wouldn't work and fixing it. And the ground would say, well, where did you get the procedure to do that and where did you get the spare parts where where'd you get the tools or you know who told you? You could do that? And we said, Hey, well, we figured we couldn't make it any worse. So we try to fix it and we did. And, we could break it again if you guys want to break it and. Say No no, just just keep running. and. The thing about that was with we were constantly. Going back and forth with the ground on. Essentially what the capability of the crew was. And I it Kinda got down to. Try not to be too restrictive. You know let us do some thinking about what we can and can't do. Try Not to get ahead of us on this and I. Think. That's Probably. Not something they do a Lotta Today on station 'cause it's so mature but. When we go back to the moon I'll guarantee it's going to be doing an awful lot of that in the question is, how do we learn? Where and how to be able to do that without making things worse and that's one of the big questions for the future we've got to have people who have the mindset. Yeah that that mindset of autonomy I know I know definitely talked about. Not only for the moon which I'm sure it will be implemented but from Mars whenever just like you had experienced on expedition one where you had several hours of communication gaps there's going to be significant communications delays for Mars mission, and so that level of autonomy and the crew being able to solve problems real time. Without the help of the of the ground is absolutely. Something to consider. What I think. If there's one comment that I would have. I have not seen enough of that. Thinking if you will on how NASA is planning to go back to the moon I think maybe don't need it for the moon. for the outset to do lunar exploration but we certainly need to be good at it when we start talking about going to Mars and practicing that on a moon mission is the way to go. Zooming back to expedition one for just a second. You talked about some of your mission objectives but I'm I'm curious about life As I mentioned before the station and as I know it today very big lots of space lots of lots of food, lots of things to do exercise equipment. And they've been doing it for twenty years. So it's it's It's very much routine. But what was life like four the first long duration crew aboard this? Spacecraft. Well it. It. It had a routine to which we liked Initially. We really constrained because we can only get in service module that gradually as we were able to add more power and open the note up, we got the lab brought on board. It got to be really expensive and life got pretty good because. You know we had a routine we marched through the day and. Things were really good I've gotta say that One of the things that a couple of things really surprised me though. One was. I was in the middle of the service module. We got the note opened up were running around doing something mill the day. Late morning and I'm. Gliding over the viewpoint and service module, which is facing nadir looking down the earth. And we're going over the mouth of the Mediterranean straight-set Gibraltar and this is. The third time, maybe that morning that we had been in that neck of the earth. Since we woke up and I looked over two year who was over by the Galley where all the food is. I said, we have any more coffee over there. And he was rifling through the coffee packs to see what was there and I thought about it and I said, you know. I. I'm looking at the most fantastic view probably anybody ever has at this moment on the planet, and all I can think about is you know, is there another cup of coffee in the Galley? And it struck me. How normal. Being in this really abnormal situation had become an on going. Wow. This is really surprising. I saw that A lot on our flight and I've seen many crews after us in their on-orbit discussions and their debrief. Exactly. The same thing. It's incredible. How adaptive? Humans are and how quickly these completely bizarre. Circumstances become routine. Now I hear that all the time just how how this life on board becomes routine. And and just you know this view, you see it because you're circling the earth. Sixteen Times a day so it so it does become very regular thing. Still you know amazing to think about from from here on the ground especially for those of us who have not had that view. But just. Just an appreciation for for the ability to adapt. As you're saying, you know the space should now I as I said, can you not only do you get used to it but you you have You have so many amenities I guess on the station. Now you have you, you have your own place to sleep. You have you have a sort of a dinner table where everybody can get together and eat off of the same dinner table. What was what were some of those elements of life on station with only three modules? Where were you sleeping? Where were you? Where were you eating together? Didn't seem like you had a lot of room to spare. Well. Surrogate and I were in the service module. Sleep quarters little rooms in the back end of A. Service Magic Yuri had eary's. He chose to bunk out I in the Soyuz he slept in his Soyuz couch, which was kind of his command chair You're in zero gravity as long as you're not banging into stuff, it really doesn't matter where he asleep because your body position is is kind of this slightly contracted relaxed position. Both Sergei and I had these little sleeping bags you kind of Zip yourself up in it. So you're not banging around but quite comfortable. You already had a seatbelt. He put that on the way we went we did not have a kitchen table. and. This was a big issue with ground because we thought we were told we trained and we thought we come up and we'd find the kitchen table in a bag or a box or something we talked to the ground after we can buy a couple days after we can't on said Hey soup the Russian. Center was Where's our kitchen table I said well, we we left off the flight because we had Stojan weight problems and we'll send it up to you and we said, okay fine. When's it can show up and again it was Oh yeah. Six months after you guys get there. So for about. Three weeks. We had a stealth project and we took. Parts off of if they if you will shipping containers came up in the Progress cargo ship. They were these aluminum racks and bars. And we build our own kitchen table out of scrap and again the ground went nuts but. Not to be a very workable arrangement second expedition accused liked it a lot and I thought. Actually from a design standpoint because it was a little bit smaller than the big kitchen table that was originally designed that it was a little more workable wasn't in a way as much but. That got D- manifested win the Big Table came up and I think that. That piece of hardware is in the museum somewhere. But again it's it's A. It's a question of letting the cruise kind of a gap to their own space. To build on that a little bit more. Every crew. I've seen on station. That? Get to the point where they. See themselves in an environment. That's really not part of the earth anymore at least for a couple months and that's a really important kind of mental construct has to how astronauts see themselves in relation to her. Now you mentioned you when you were talking to the ground, you said Oh that's not gonna come for six months was that the arrival of the one Oh to crew the the space shuttle that arrived and what else did they bring? Well. Actually the table came after the one or two crew. So I think the six months might the table showing up might have been the at the end of their expedition but? One or two brought up the. MP L. The The. Italian logistics module that Italian Space Agency was providing and That was also Susan Helms Tim Vass, and commander Yuri USA Jeff, and we spent a week with them on orbit. people outside Hook and stuff up and then Jim and Susan I. Guess It'd spacewalk or two. And then When we do these docked events with a shuttle because of the. Reduced. Pressure. That's the shuttle has to be at for the as we generally have the hatches closed. So it's. Shuttle Docks. You have some initial meeting grade than a couple of days of hatches closed and we open the hatches up on the as or done so. If, very hectic time lot of running around moving. Bags and cargo. Get any MP L. M. A.. But It was great to see. All these people that we had worked and trained with for years, and now they're up on orbit and. We're going to get on discovery close the hatch go home. Now one thing before you went home that I believe it was it was you who instituted this was a tradition that still carried on today. Handing over command of the International Space Station you as the first commander that change of command ceremony with a bell and handing over of I think it was a key. That was started by you and there was inspired by your time in the navy. Is that right? Yes I and. It was something that we had talked about both with the Russian cosmonauts, the other astronauts in in Houston that we wanted to do Simply, because we had to control centers. At that point, we have four now. Have Five I'm not sure but the WHO. was in charge of the space station in later years in in in the modern era. definitely gets. Passed around from country to country, and even you know nationality nationalities whereas a station commander. So anticipating that we thought you know The navy has a long tradition of doing this and it's the Royal Navy in the UK the Russian Navy does the US. Navy does it then. You have the school ceremony where he say, okay fine. Here's the crew and we're gonNa tell you something and here's the new guy who's in charge and how. He's GonNa do, and so it's a chain of command and we thought that was a really important. cultural thing to introduce to the space station. I think at first the Russians were gone there scratching their heads saying. What are these Americans doing now? But? I think today. they and the Canadians the Japanese Europeans really like it because. It really sets the tone for the next phase of station operations and how it's going to be run. Now when you came home, you came home on the space shuttle and this was a little bit different for you in that. The tiny spent in space was much longer than you had previously on your other shuttle missions. How're you feeling when you came back? Now that you had spent so much time in your space, your your body adjusting to one g after a long expedition. I. I had a really good experience I. Don't really know why I always spent a Lotta time. hunter days. On orbit. getting what exercise we could We had a little jungle gym there we worked on the was new that really seemed to be beneficial. My experience coming back after I assess flight. was probably as good as my shorter shuttle flights and I I felt really good. I did not have Any particular Uneasiness you know nervous tubular issues or anything like that. Has has a little experiment. Day After we got back the morning after the day we had landed. we were gonNA pile into van. How in the parking lot get the Kennedy Space Center we're going to go somewhere for some kind of test. And when you're. Walking around to do these things you have. A flight surgeon right with you and maybe one or two other handlers just in case you start going wildly they'll. They'll catch you. And I I've felt pretty good and so we're out in the parking lot. And I, talked to my flight document said the Terry and he was going to drive the vantage Tara. Let me Let me try driving the van. Oldest him on his head since Sunday morning and it's like six o'clock in the lobby in the lot outside the. Building at KFC, there's nobody in the parking lot. There's no cars in the parking lot. And he says, okay but just take it really. So I got I got in the car driving around really slowly I could turn really slowly. Didn't like breaking abruptly but. It was easy on the controls it was. Okay. and. Then I did that for about three or four minutes I stopped got out. And I thought to myself. This is the kind of thing that we're. GonNa we're GONNA be doing when we go to Mars and we have a long journey, we're going to be weightless. We have a landing. We're all GONNA pile out and we're GONNA be in rovers and things like that and I thought about that I said to myself we can do this. That's big. That's that's berry big. That means that. You know as we're shaping what that's going to look like that. That little experiment you did it in the parking lot might actually prove useful as to as to how humans can perform on another surface. You know we've learned so. Not Well documented but I think that's the kind of stuff. That's right. You know we learned so much just from the International Space, station just pass yours I. Know I know you retired from NASA in two thousand one but taking a look at the whole space station program after your mission. Going from starting in two thousand now here we are twenty twenty. You know what do you take away from the experienced of what you've seen maybe from the outside of what we have our what value the International Space Station throughout these past twenty years has brought us. But I think people Maybe. Have not experienced or don't remember. What pay technical and programmatic and possibly disc diplomatic challenge the space station really was. In the fact that we're able to do it I don't think the state space stations had a major technical casually that I'm more of since we launched we had what sixty three expeditions on there that have all been very successful We have multiple ways to get to the station now So you gotta step back and say. Well. What does this really mean in terms of? the future what you know, what what does this say about what's next and I say well. If we'RE GONNA go. Past. The moon out to Mars, and maybe other places, asteroids and things like that. The character of how we will do this it's going to have several aspects. One is the vehicles that we send and they're probably going to be more than one of them are going to be very big they're going to be. Such a size that they can't be symbol on the ground in launched in a single lift, we don't have the boosters that are going to have enough power. So they're going to have to be assembled in orbit with. Ada In robotics and they're gonNA have to combine the resources of more than just one country because the the expense of Mars mission is not something. Any single country's GONNA be able to afford nor would they have all the technology and capability that will be required? And so if you look at. International Space Station. It's really a blueprint for how to do this. So I think all those questions there behind us. Does just an incredible thing to think about the space station not only for informing. Exploration plans for talking about the moon we're talking about. Mars and. Of International. Cooperation. Is is really thanks to the Space Station Program I. Know One thing we're looking forward to in the near future you talk about multiple ways to get to the space station. Now, that's an era of commercialization with commercial crew and I know there's efforts to commercialize low-earth-orbit and thinking about what else is going to be low-earth-orbit in the future and it'll be thanks to the space station that's informing some of those commercial enterprises Do you think there's there's value there to space station as a platform to help build an economy in low-earth-orbit? Well I. Think it's a big question that hinges on What what do Commercial. Operations really are commercial enterprises. What do they look like I? Think it's hard to have. A. Commercial Market. When Nastase the only customer it kind of stretches the question of is it really commercial event If, we were able to. Find some material invent or develop something that could only be done in St Louis had tremendous value either in the space based economy or back here on earth then I think you'd see commercial space really take off. Everybody's very optimistic that we are going to find something like that. I know that if we if we don't look for then we're not gonNA find. Now thinking about that, you know you gotTa make sure that Nastas just the only customer that we're one of many customers and we're also looking at exploration. We've got this artist program and that's going to inform our exploration plans from Mars. How do you see Nasr's role for the future? said. Open question right now I would like to see NASA. Take a strong role and leading the technology development and organizing the architecture for our we're GONNA do Lunar Exploration and certainly Mars Expeditions I. think that's the right place for. NASA. The one negative comment that I would have is the. Were NASA as a political animal if you will, and we tend to have a great periods of very robust development and operations, and then a stand down for a decade or two before we do the next big thing we did that in the Moon Program we did that shuttle were. Probably going to do that when space stations. Pass, passed its peak and getting ready for some sort of disposition I don't think gets a very healthy way to. Have a robust space capable organization. If we could change that for the better I think it'd be a tremendous thing. I absolutely believe that too bill shepherd. Thank you so much for coming on Houston. We have a podcast and sharing. The history of what it took to get to expedition one year experience there, and then what you helped shape for twenty continuous years on board. The International Space Station. I very much appreciate your time. To be with you and your audience. Thank you. took. The bring. Your. Hey. Thanks for sticking around. Hope you enjoy this conversation with ship as much as I. Did we've been putting together a collection of episodes about the international, space, station, and celebration of the twentieth anniversary of continuous human presence. Go check us out at NASA DOT GOV slash podcast. You can click on us used to we have podcast and off to the side, we have a collection of space station episodes you can listen to them in no particular order. This has been a very dynamic time for the International Space Station this month and we got a lot more coming up checkout NASA DOT GOV for the latest launch and landing schedule of crews going up and down to and from the International Space Station. You could talk to us at Houston. We have a podcast at the NASA Johnson Space Center pages of facebook twitter and Instagram is the Hashtag ask NASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show just make sure to mention it's for us at Houston, a podcast. This episode was recorded on August Fourteenth Twenty twenty thanks to Alex Perriman, Pat Ryan Nor Moran Belinda, Toledo and Jennifer Hernandez things again to Bill Shepherd for taking the time to come on the show. We'll be back next week.

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Humans in Space

Houston We Have a Podcast

1:10:08 hr | 1 year ago

Humans in Space

"He Houston we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center episode one twenty-three humans in space. I'm Gary Jordan. I'll be your host today on this. podcast we bring in the experts scientists engineers and astronauts all to let you know what's going on in the world of human spaceflight human spaceflight. We talk about added a lot but that human element in front is a very important piece of the puzzle it can make travelling through space a lot more complicated. What with redundant systems that Pesky ski little thing called Light Support and that heightened element of risk but in the end a human can lean on curiosity and discovery space exploration to do so much more and best of all share the experience that many of us can only dream of a lot of work at NASA goes into understanding the human element in human spaceflight? In fact there's a program right here at at the Johnson Space Center that focuses on just that it's called the human research program longtime listeners. May recognize this program. From many of the episodes we've done in the past namely the series the five hazards of human spaceflight episodes fifty. Sixth through sixty one for those interested. But there's a lot more to the program and it can be organized into different elements or areas areas of focus. So for these next six episodes. We're going to dive deep into the work being done to understand what exactly happens to the human body in space because there's so much more work that goes was behind that then you might think physiology how humans interact with machines. Human behavior involves analogs on the ground or like pretend spaceflight in a sense like habitats it also involves other Massa centers universities and international organizations and all of this work helps us to be successful in space. Ace Informs US now on the International Space Station and informs us on what we can expect on the moon for NASA's artem program for traveling to Mars and it shows what we can learn earned can be shared and pulled into other areas other than human spaceflight for the benefit of humankind so here to give an overview on everything human research program is Dr Gen fogarty. She's the chief scientist of the program and today she describes the history of human research the disciplines within the programs and why we're focusing on these particular elements so here we go the history and elements of human research at NASA with Dr John Fogerty Enjoy monotype county. We asked and John Fogarty. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. Well thanks for having means pleasure to be here. We talk a lot about human spaceflights and today. We're GONNA talk about that very first word human. It's a very big part of it and there's a lot that goes into it so we're really going to have you. Have you break it down and I'm excited for you to do that for us. Yeah my pleasure. I mean that's what I do for a living. I'm always excited about when you have a long history in human rights. Let's let's go through your your biography. Tell me Tell me how this all came about for for your is a bit of a winding road. I'm really glad I ended up and and when I talk to young people today I kinda give them the perspective that anything is possible. You know it's taking on challenges and opportunities and keeping your mind open Along the way so I've always been interested in medicine and human health and how people say well and how people get sick and how we fix them. That was since I my earliest memories as a kid I was never shy of injuries or blood or any of that I was. I had three brothers so there was plenty of blood and guts. All right So yeah it was does my passion from just don't even have memory of it just felt really intrinsic so always saw saw any kind of education that expand on that so when it came time to make decisions about college premed was definitely the the track of choice But then really understanding what premed was kind of you know the reality of finances. And what was I going to get there and do all these things and it was actually first generation. Shen College in my parents were children of immigrants. And so kind of how you face learning how to do these things and accomplish these tasks so didn't get a whole lot guidance. You know and I think some of the takes a lot of support to to overcome these things but a lot of different people manage well anyway kind of winding road so did biology is Undergrad with a a minor in chemistry did really well in college. I was really like being a student loved to read so getting grades wasn't hard but applying it is the key And then it comes to the decision about graduate school where you'RE GONNA go. What are you GonNa do and when I was struggling a little bit And Kinda you know. He's kid is trying to stretch their wings and figure out what to do. I decided I'm from New Jersey. I decided to leave and Kind of came West. All the way to Texas ended up applying getting accepted to new Texas Am College of Medicine But to the PhD program. So I really was fascinated with the research side. How medicine becomes medicine? Like how do we know to do things we you know how. How do those things had a new treatments? Come about Where do they come from? And how do we understand the human body so spent five years up there. Working in department of cardiovascular the Vascular Physiology Medical Physiology completed my degree and this is really where the turning point was with space. I was aware of it. Really understood airspace. Medicine to my brothers are in the Air Force My parents worked for the FAA. So I understood like aviation general aviation and things like that and understood kind of hypocrisy and when people went to altitude. ooh That was just kind of common discussion across the dinner table about pulling. Jeez what are called g LoC which is Gravity induced loss subconscious consciousness. So one fighter pilots pull really high dis or you can even feel them in your car. You take a steep. Turn at a high rate of speed some polling you they can take up to eight. Geez you know pull in different maneuvers and they learn how to stress and strain against it and they wear protective suits so understanding those kind of stressors on the human and how you survive 'em so all along along the way I was doing my work in a lab by a gentleman named Dr Mike Dope in Dr Dell dot funding from NASA For an experiment and it was is actually in Colombia. One Oh seven so my first experience was getting ready Because we had a certain technique we did. It wasn't the same work. I did from a steady perspective. But ah the way you prepare. These vessels studied the cardiovascular system was something I specialized in and was good at so he said. Do you WanNa come with me over to Kennedy and work on this program a message like let's take a couple months and go do that. So we moved essentially his entire lab over to Kennedy Space Center. And of course we're prepared For our experiments when the animals return them on a seven but unfortunately one of seven was one of the vehicles that had did not return next Columbia accident so I spent a couple of months on south there because one of the things that happens was they lead. Seal the doors for all the labs so all equipment was locked in a bunch of people had to go back to Texas him and kind of resume their lives. But because I was is in a post doc position I had some latitude so I stayed there and Just started reading and learning about more about NASA and kind of maybe there was a place place for me there so I started looking for jobs And about six months later I applied and got a job with a local contractor the time it was widely now it's Ktar life sciences finances and Started working in medical risk management on the cardiovascular side supporting space medicine so that was kind of my entree into NASA what what a career path you were already at NASA. When you're thinking maybe I should pursue something? You're you're doing some research at the Cape Right. Well Yeah and and for me it was you know. Maybe I knowing how NASA has worked different centers at that point becoming familiar because the grant came from a program that was out of Ames research center. I thought well maybe that's where you know my skill set woodwork best but one of the opportunities came up and clearly I was only two and a half hours up the road and Texas. Am that came down and interviewed and luckily enough got to work at Johnson Space Center which is the manned space flight center and My work that I did for my dissertation was very human. Relevant was on cardiovascular disease in people and how to get past those blockages in your arteries and build new vessels so I had a lot of background in doing medically applicable research and that really was beneficial to space medicine at the time So I worked with the flight surgeons and with the chief medical officer on kind of selection standards and kind of when medical risks came up and people were being treated. What does that mean to the mission profile? I spent about twelve years working in the medical side of operations and also worked for what's called the health and Medical Technical Authority. Cardi so with your background. In how the cardiovascular system works in the human body what was particularly interesting. What questions were you looking into when you were just starting to get into this world of human spaceflight is one where I I? Kind of. My skill set really played into is a thing called orthotic intolerant and so it was happening. When crew members return this goes all the way back actually to Apollo Not Quite Mercury Gemini and we try to understand why those why that is true. True But the longer you spend in space your body really does a good job at adapting to it. And it's not and I'll probably expand upon spend for later because it's super interesting and I think Is it a little bit of a different take than what people have heard before about space flight but this adaptation is not only perfectly normal perfectly weekly appropriate where it where it creates a challenge is when you want to change environments very quickly so when you wanna go from microgravity and being in space to coming back actor Earth on the order of hours after being in one of those domains for a long period of time your body's going to have to another adaptation and sometimes the amount of time it takes you to adjust is what makes understanding what is the vehicle have to provide the person? What is the person capable of that space where we have to do research to be able to describe describe? How do you keep that person? Safe and healthy while their bodies re-adapting so again kind of Apollo Skylab Definitely during shuttle is where we saw a lot of examples when people come back to Earth after being in space for a while and then they go to stand up. There's a couple of things going on Definitely your nor of a steeler system that Oregon in the middle ear makes you little dizzy. So you gotta learn. We're up is again and and understand what gravity is to you but the other thing is your blood vessels actually Chile decided to maybe not do their job the same way in your lower body and that blood should be coming up to your head and heart and your lungs kind of sinks down to your lower body and fills your legs And it's really hard to get it pumped back up. So it causes this thing called or the static intolerance where it when you stand up your heart rate will get really high. Your blood pressure starts to drop eventually if unsupported or you don't do something about it. You pass out. Same thing happens to me in the gym when I tried to do squats. Yeah exactly for the same reason. You are collecting a bunch of blood and your lower body where you have a bunch of big muscles and it's no longer accessible to the upper part of your body so that's why when you stand end up out of a squat like your is kind of get that tunnel vision. Yeah Yeah and you know like Oh if I don't do something I'm going down so you need to start walking all the muscle pump. So you use your muscles to push against blood vessels to push that blood back to your heart. which gets it to your head to your? So it's the way your body is actually designed to manage the fact that if you're not getting good blood flow to your brain when you're upright your body lays itself horizontal where there's no gradient where your heart doesn't have to work very hard to get it from one side to the other because it's all in the same plane The issue is why it's happening. So what you're describing with squat is pretty normal and you know to move the other thing is dehydration could be factored into it. If you're working not really hard you need more volume you need more plaza volume unity at water into your system into your blitz by but really it's about sequestering that blood hiding it more or less in in your muscles and sometimes it actually goes out of the muscles in the blood vessels into the tissue and that's called third spacing and the only way to get that you can't get that volume back into to your your blood supply that comes out through its call your lymph addicts and it'll be made into your any kind of lost. So when criminals came back and they discovered that a couple of them they were again. You're measuring blood pressure. You're measuring heart rate. You see these signs. Tell you that the static you know. They're not going to do well on their own right where they need garment it. Just I mentioned before with The high performance jet pilots an external four. So instead of you walking like if you don't have the ability to cause it might be a small volume or you don't have have any place to walk to if your muscles can't contract the suit presses on you so g suits fill up. They usually air bladders and you can crank up the pressure using Odile to say how much millimeters of Mercury pressure do. I want to apply to those muscles which also applies to the blood vessels to keep that column of blood going up to your head and heart so we actually have used g suits on the crew members Since the Apollo era who was a well known air force solution to Having a hydro static gradient that was pulling away from the head and the heart The issue is that it's it's meant really for you not to be walking around in there. They're not usually designed to be ambulatory. They're meant to be seated. And just what a pilot is So that we've had trouble translating them to something that really works for walking being now the Russians have a solution which is called the CANTATA And it's a very practical solution. So you have fabric that has leasing down the side and you can imagine. They like pair air bike shorts. That come up along your hips up to your waist. And then there's also a segment that's on your calves. And you can customize the tightness by the by the how tight you lace lease them so it's just a real practical solution squeezing the fluids upwards. Yes is GONNA keep that column of blood. It won't allow it to expand. It's really hard to tie them tight enough that you get active contraction but it's just not going to allow it to come out more So it's an external support like a girdle type effect And it's been very successful and we actually are members. Use them when they fly on the Soyuz capsule And we've done experiments with them to understand. Can we quantify how. Well they work work Then the nicest part about them is that they are customizable at the tiny. Wear them one of the changes that happens in crew members is called chicken can lake so when they go on orbit there lower body does get smaller. They have a little bit of muscle muscle atrophy but actually lose just a lot of blood volume outta their lower body So when you were only measure in fit somebody for a decent before they left it would be the wrong size. When they returned it would be too loose? Wow see much change there. Is that much. Saint it returns to like preflight within a week or so. But that doesn't help you on land. You need when you need it. You need it what I'm hearing What you're describing when it comes to what's happening to the human body in space is these extreme environments put a lot of stress on the human body of the human body adapts APPs But there's a lot of changes and so a lot of work at NASA and other places when it comes to human spaceflight is developing technologies to maybe to help mitigate some of these issues and that may be just one example but really. It's it's trying to identify what exactly is happening. Seems like we're still looking into that right. It's it's it's been an endeavour to characterize because the complexity is people respond so differently Right when you think about the uniqueness of each individual what state how they they start How much change occurs in what direction in what system? So when you talk about the musculoskeletal system talk about the cardiovascular system talk about the central nervous system talk about the GI system. So I talk a lot of times when I did give lectures I call them. dials like if you imagine each one of those systems being dial across a table where you got to control them or you watch them change. Then you'd say okay. In what combination do I turn some of these dials so that that person has the best outcome like all those dials add up or potentially multiply together to equal the sum of its parts in the whole is actually as stated typically greater than the sum of its parts rate. You could just try to measure each one very isolated and think you can add them up and get the answer and and guess what Biology Full Jerry. Wouldn't it be nice if there was one solution to fit all yes. That's not the way humans work right so a lot of our work Ends up going across cross many human so you hear a lot about especially with you know the recent. Ev was two women it was well. How different are women? What what are we making? Sure we understand hand Across both sexes across multiple heritage's races and backgrounds. Sounds of any sort that you can imagine that influence lifestyle factors that would change potentially outcomes and also the experience base that you come in with so you talk about working out on at the gym So we have you know requirements for people to be healthy. Of course you know you think about the astronauts and their robust human beings that are intelligent. People that dedicate themselves to this endeavor so they're very invested in their health and wellbeing so they take an active role in being very healthy individuals. But even when you work out you could be squatting. The same as another person hadn't have very different outcome. She'll like why do I put on muscle but this person doesn't and how come I can't get rid of that body fat and when you're in my lifetime really much and then you see how complicated is when you add on dietary factors supplements or you know you hear a different fad diets that come out and say one works for one person and one doesn't for another like what is causing the difference between these people and that's when you get into olmecs whether it be genomics epigenetics were proteome exceeded the oh mix go on and on and on right now but it's really understanding someone at a very molecular level to know if that is a key to understanding what's the better outcome so in addition to all the work that we do that characterizes the biology and physiology were also so moving into the domain of characterizing people on a molecular level and you kind of have to think of it as a puzzle that you don't have the picture sure in front of you. You have a lot of pieces and you don't have the edges S- every time we get a piece of information that's about characterizing or measuring something you say okay. How do do these pieces linked together? Do they relate to each other and do they affect a dial. So it's for me as a chief scientist. It's it's really looking everybody. Who Works for NASA funded by NASA and? Actually we even go beyond that. 'cause we rely on terrestrial research who are studying humans to give us clues about just humans percents because a lot of what we do is yes. You mentioned space has a lot of stressors And a Lotta needs to those. Pardon me. Those are challenges right and even the case as of exercise you intentionally go and stress your body right. That's when we perceive stress to be a positive event and so there are a lot of conditions where your body Eddie is responding to that stress and the next time the reason you build muscle was because you broke it down you caused a little bit of damage and your body says all right. I'M GONNA repair myself and put a little extra down because the next time you come back and do that. I want to be prepared for it. And that's actually how you lay muscle fiber and get stronger and larger and if you keep on adding load and keep on adding reps or do different types of intensity intensity you change the stressor. Your body has to continue to respond so in our case you have people who have done that for their lives going into space flight and now in some ways please we take away stress so going into microgravity is removing a signal and now the body is like trying to consider. We'll do. I continue to invest in this thing when you used to load me your bones and muscles in particular or do I kind of pull back on that investment because my energy is spent better elsewhere and so the other kind of throwdown term used sometimes is the energy. The human body is the most energy efficient machine known to man. It will stop investing in things if you stop demanding of it right when you demand of it. It'll go put energy in over here and sometimes that makes a process. We're not very fond of you. Know in our lifestyles here on earth like with the rate of cardiovascular disease like why why is that you know. Where's that coming from? What are we exposing ourselves to? Or what do we. Why are we inducing that process and you look down at at this point? They're like well. We look ETA. The foods we eat and the types of foods we eat and the things that are in the foods we eat. But how does your liver. Respon- what what have we set off in your liver. Which makes the lipids that aren't so good for your blood? Vessels was your liver responding that way. So it's understanding cause and effect between a stressor and a response and then saying is that somewhere where we need to interfere or or is there a different location. It makes sense to kind of interfere with the process so in spaceflight people say oh you know we wanNA stop bone loss and we WANNA to stop muscle loss and we want to start. I understand where that comes from that. You know that resistance to change thinking that's how we keep them healthy but in all honesty you got allow allow you got to be willing to think that change is not all bad. It's about does the change. Allow the person to accomplish the task. They need to accomplish. So are they a strong enough to do the job when they get where they need to go. So in the concept of doing Mars exploration after spending six to nine months in transit probably in microgravity like. They are today on the space station. You're going to see changes. Do we have them in a position. On the day they land on Mars to be healthy and well L. enough to take care of themselves recover because it's going to be a rough landing and they're going to have to transition but then are they strong enough to deal with. What's it's three gravity? Threes of gravity. Will they be strong enough and healthy enough so then we talk about you. Know Risk for injury whether it be fracture or you know muscle injuries stories. If they need to go off and do work so he say how. Do we measure change over time. And then how does that change match to the expectation and the outcome at the end. which for us is? This is being healthy and well to to live and work on Mars for some unknown period of time. You know we haven't quite gotten that data at rest right so what. I'm what I'm hearing is. There's there's a lot of different fields a lot of different considerations when it comes to human research I'm here a little bit of overlap to between human research and space and human research on the ground And how this can be applied to even our own lives so I wanted to take a step back and go through the history of Human Research Program and what we've been doing it NASA that's led up to this point and how it's organized now to tackle all of these problems and all of these different areas that you started with. Let's go back in history. Let's let's take take a look at human research Through the beginning of when we started looking at it in the early tons of NASA yeah and even in the fifties fifty six years years ago When you talk about the program that was was in place which was mainly medical to support the astronauts? Whether it'd be gem Ni- Mercury Apollo there. There were lots of unknowns. It was a very scary time There was lots of hypotheses about what may or may not happen and it was really Mercury and Gemini that set the stage for when you you put someone and even the Russian attempts at seeing just survival. You know there were questions about could swallow my gravity Thinking about because the concept it's up to was in not different than we think of it. Today is being almost upside down. Yeah Right. Could you swallow against pressure gradient or force that was in a different direction or lack before you know it was just very confusing. And we didn't have a good way to simulate it so the the people who went before us had a lot of unknowns. You couldn't have told. Hold them what to expect. Really it was about them telling you what they what they experienced. There were some animal said ahead you hear about the famous dogs and monkeys that went and survived they they ultimately may not have but not because of my gravity. You know there are other problems with the vehicle or the way it came back But I would say the the premier medical side and the data that was collected elected during Apollo where they did biomedical monitoring Really set the stage for like. Well what was your blood pressure doing. What was your heart rate doing? What was your body temperature doing And when did it change change and why and a lot of it had to do with psychological stress. I mean when you talk about the moon landing itself and kind of just adjusting to that first time that lander was coming down and they talk about the heart rates It it just told us a lot about well. It was a very normal response to something. That was pretty scary at the time right Very low fuel They're getting call outs about how close they were to the ground and having put that land or down the Apollo Eleven Lane so when you hear that audio recording e you You yourself as a listener could get high heart rate you can feel this stress and pressure that was going on But we started to learn a lot about what happened. That was completely normal. People were able to eat people were able to sleep. The questions were did we make it comfortable for them. Did we make it reasonable for them to live and work in that environment or did we cause more stress than just being in space. And that's part of the work we do now. So we don't add exercise but As that evolved from that that Apollo Biomedical Program Graham the agency started formulate something that was a little bit more struggle structured which was called the bio astronautics roadmap in through Skylab which actually was has a dedicated life science mission and the biomedical results of Skylab which there are several books on you really start to learn about people being space for longer periods of time and dedicated. Study of the human. The body They even flu physicians for that purpose and they went up incrementally longer missions over the three Skylab so it was thirty to sixty to ninety days ultimately gently as they spent in space Tried different modalities of exercise to see how that would work and interestingly enough the Skylab crewmembers either maintained or gained weight and and they were more fit based on the exercise testing when they came back before they left well so when you think about the human ability to respond and rise to the challenge orange if you give the body of it will respond. Microgravity was not an impediment to that but now is about understanding as missions changed and vehicle exchange in the missions of those vehicle change. If you're not dedicated for studying the human body and just working on it full time maybe you're going to have some changes that are are not negative but you're gonNA have a decrease in body weight or a decrease in muscle mass and it wasn't because the body couldn't do the opposite it was just we didn't provide the stressors just because you're competing interests Moving into the shuttle era. You know those missions were about fourteen days or less We had several. That were called extended duration ration- Orbiters and one of them was more than one was extended duration orbital medical project Ideo. MP and there's actually several books on that that talk about all all of the biomedical research that was done on shuttle But again shuttle the way we talk about it is like a sprint. Two week missions maybe seventeen nineteen day missions but packed full of operations A lot of it was science at the time but a lot of it was construction could have been launching. Satellites could have been fixing telescopes. oops come in constructing the International Space Station so when you are working full-time eating and exercising take a backseat. Dislike in your everyday it life. So we started seeing people lose weight and their body composition change a little bit even in a two week period and we could measure it. And that's really when we started discovering things like like the worth of static intolerance because we had a lot more people flying we had men and women flying and they were dedicated toward operations and so the human need it can took a little bit of a back seat so That led to a lot of understanding about what we were capable of doing. Depending on how you designed operations silence of the mission in two thousand when they launched Space Station the idea was these people. Were going up and going up for longer durations. At the time time it was probably more like four months three four months not quite the six months more that we're doing now But that's a marathon compared to shuttle And so you really had to understand. Where are we going with expectations on the human and where we providing what the human needed overtime to still be healthy and functional perform perform? Well given that they had a mission to do and even during Shuttle I came to NASA in two thousand four So early part heart of ISS the evolution. I've seen in in the International Space Station at finishing construction now in its utilization fees but also how we think think of managing the crew in their health and wellbeing both physically and psychologically over time is sustain them over very long whereas essentially deployments. So it's it's evolved the way we do our science The way we're trying to study the human plus the techniques have become more and more modernized as terrestrial techniques have of of course But it's with that I on expiration because we're using that platform I says Mars Ford. Say if you do six which is why we're asking for a year you're on station like we did with Scott Kelly and Macau Gordyenko because time course understanding the change over time is incredibly important for us to be able to predict other time courses because really being asked for mission to Mars being anywhere from twenty four to thirty six months depending how long they actually stay on the Martian surface and those are really unprecedented. Oh yeah durations exposures so if we want to have any confidence in what we're predicting we need experience and and really some some solid data throughout the mission maybe expand on that a little bit than we did before. Because the most Mr robust measures you can do a really pre post when we get them back on earth you know you think about big machines like MRI invasive procedures where. They're a little bit more risk to the person you want to make sure you have a sterile environment So on space station or in any even on shadow we tend to do things that are very minimal very as much noninvasive as possible to keep the risk down to the person to the mission but you really struggle for good. What's called time course data from a science perspective so we're trying to fill in those gaps in the middle and not just rely on pre post? We need a lot more data in the middle Data's good that's why we have. The space station is a great place for that. A lot of people going going up so a lot of data sets You mentioned two thousand. Four was when you came to NASA. I think that was about the same time. HR P started the human research program program. So we you mentioned. There's you've seen a fundamental shift in the way that we we approach long duration spaceflight and the priorities of people in space. Tell me how that progressed. From from when you came on with space maybe specifically the human research program but really really focusing on that progression. What were the things questions we were asking king and then filling in the gaps for? Yes it was a a real fortunate time because I saw both sides of it even though it was the tail end of what was called the buyer astronaut roadmap. So you're right. It was about two thousand four that had a lot to do with development of Constellation and and how the agency was reorganizing itself to support constellation Asian which was of course Orion and SOS at the time and a bit of a different structure So the concept was with buyers genetic roadmap that the mandate was very very broad It was a lot about doing excellent science. Excellent Excellent Study of the human but it didn't quite have the mandate to be very Mission oriented with the concept of Mars mission. Only it was. It was a little more open than that So it didn't have that applied mandate and with the formation of constellation the restructure kind of within the agency There was a shift toward needing a more more dedicated applied human research program so they did actually stand up in around two thousand four two thousand five we did a lot of work to develop the content content and kind of down select. What needed to be focused on which resulted in kind of the risks? That you'll see today articulated and human research program in the Human Research Roadmap But it was quite a process through a lot of boards. A lot of vetting A lot of external oversight of how those decisions were made different priorities Um but it did ultimately kind of segue itself into the human research program in the elements That you see today. I think there's we've done some collapsing because we understand the integrated nature of things but it was broken out to represent the five major disciplines That we thought existed at the time signed could cover the content that would lead towards more applied results so that our focus is producing results that actually translate into an operational regional impact. And as you mentioned before it could be technology could be a way to monitor. Something is definitely going to have to be the evidence base to interpret what you measure and then The idea of actionable What came out of this? That means we take what action for the individual and and then on top of it we also crossover responsible for the medical architecture which says when you can measure something you can interpret it and you know what action to take you better have the medical system to do it. So what do you pre pack. How do you send someone with a medical system when when they do need care and you can document that how do you make make sure that care? Is there for them to have. Because you already had to know that ahead of time. Yeah there's a lot of The way you're saying this is structured. There's a lot of practicality there's a lot of preparedness repaired nece versus. Maybe I'll delisted approach where you know you have to fit it into operation. So how can we best make that efficient. Yeah that's exactly right so so let's go into how you talk about five elements that's that makes up. What are the five focus areas of human research program so right now we have Human Factors and behavioral performance. And that that is one that is collapsed group from the the early start of the human research program so And there's there's a lot of overlap when you think about the psychological underpinnings of how someone is managing their environment and their well being in in an environment. So when you think about where you live and work here on Earth you've got a lot of latitude to probably change your environment so you you could reorganize your office. You can reorganize your home. You can add and subtract furniture if you know in certain cases if you're dissatisfied with your location particularly your home you you can go buy in your office but you make do but you get. You've got some freedom to to alter your space to suit yourself and if you don't don't you actually have some recourse to probably go make something else happen in the case of spaceflight Once that vehicle was designed in those decisions are made aide pretty much. There's no latitude to make a lot of changes in accommodation stuck of any real significance. Sure yes you can put different things up on the wall and you might be able to to move some stuff slightly. But in general it is a fixed location and it's definitely a fixed volume in the volumes. You're talking about are incredibly small uh-huh Station actually right now is a very large volume with respect to what we think. The future exploration volumes will be so we we make sure sure people understand that. It is a national laboratory dedicated to a science. But it's not as isolated or confined as as one may think But having said that the human human factors behavioral performance also studies psychological health and wellbeing The emotional health the psychosocial health because the idea is I mentioned before the word deployment in the Department of Defense and military deployments. We very much recognize the stressors that go along with being far away from family. Having Limited communication and understanding the trials and tribulations are going on back at home. And you can't help you know those feelings and your family feeling like I can't. I don't have access to. You're not there for for me. Well for F- restaurants it's very much the same paradigm so we can learn a lot from each other in that arena but we have different circumstances in that we can't bring someone back from deployment Tori easily Especially on exploration missions. It's actually not an option at all. Once they burned from ours they will have to go to Mars to return So there's there's no option of terminating that mission early physics physics but preparing someone in the family for those expectations and knowing how to handle them in the idea of communication will become harder and harder that communication delay is only going to grow and make it impossible to have a real time conversation. So how do you manage the the psychological health of someone when they're going through that process and what tools do they need to manage that And what kind of avenues can we give them. That like. We call them before countermeasures relief so that they have some connection back to home because even in the most extreme case not only are they gonNA lose communication but they will lose site of the planet earth. Yeah that's right. And there's lots of concerns about that eventuality is starting to make sense. Why these are intertwined right? The human and machine integration but also that that psychology that mental state of being in space and being in this space craft you can see why those intertwined yeah because vehicles going to have to compensate in a lot of ways so when we talk about some of the countermeasures being augmented reality or virtual reality well those are all great ideas and we test them and there's a lot going here on earth you know particularly particularly in the entertainment community about what those things bring to the table and how you use them. There's a lot going on with training people with them. Immersing you in an environment before you actually go there see you have the a different level of experience training but we have to go. As far as writing requirements that tell vehicle designers what that means to have them on board you know not even from a physical manifestation. That's one element. But how do you move data. How do you give it proper power? You make it available for four people or six people or whatever. The number is going to be very specific needs. That we have to articulate. Because if we don't do that it's not just going to be there by accident. It has to be either very intentionally and by design so the level of detail. We have to come up with to to express to the designers and the planners what that means and then the operational use of it you know when when do people when is it most benefit them. How do they get access to it? so those are very much intertwined. I think it's working quite well. That's that's one of the elements and I know you're going to deep dive into those and Extraordinary work going on for sure. We work in a lot of different venues to try to really tease. He's out some of the different stressors so some interesting work in Antarctica Moscow actually here at Johnson Space Center so we don't turn down an opportunity to study. Eddie exploration in isolation for sure for our listeners. Stay tuned because we're GONNA take a deep dive into each of these elements. I think the the next one is The one I have at least on my sheet is exploration medical capability. Yes Oh before. We talked about that medical system of the future. Those are the folks responsible for understanding of all the data coming out of our program out of terrestrial medicine Pretty much any way where we can get it like. How do we envision the medical system of the future because right now Most of the time as people receive medicine it's a very personal and in-person experience rate. You go to a doctor at a minimum. You talk on the phone but normally sleep you go physically to the office to interface with someone or physically hospital Remotely and on on Space Station. We have things such as telemedicine so we use a lot of devices such ultrasound that can take images we got video or can look at crew members and watch them do a procedure we can talk to them about their symptoms You can get a sense the color of their skin and how their eyes look and you can have one crew member. Examine the other commemorative to give us that kind of physical report And Telemedicine can work really well because a lot of that data comes down and will go to the specialists to interpret and provide care in the future because of the communication delay. Telemedicine won't work. It's just not practical. There's no way to communicate. You're talking in the the best case scenario in Mars orbit. It's twenty minutes each way for a piece of information mation to move so forty minutes round trip to communicate a word or two or sentence back and forth that's typed not spoken in some cases depending where the orbits orbits are the sun can completely block us and for many weeks to months we could have total blackout of calm. So there's some different strategies saying maybe you can get around that but it's it's he's not going to be less than forty minutes. Give me a lot more than forty minutes to ping signal off at different satellites deployed but the reality was telemedicine. Isn't gonNA work. So how do we give not only the physical tools to do medicine but the decision support. How do you give crew members and one of them you know based on our Standards Standards and recommendations will be trained physician. But you can't rule out that the physician won't become ill so you're still going to need a lot of decision support. And what does that mean. So that's often like you know people might go to web. MD or wherever to read up. You know whatever resource you can get on the web but we want to create Kind kind of the ultimate in a decision support tool that gives them the best evidence based so when they enter symptoms or describe a problem that themselves or another crew member is having having. It can bring up kind of a differential diagnosis that they can walk through so they can understand. Well what test do I do next to narrow down what problem we're having in. What is the ultimate treatment? It all also has to be connected to the medical kit the idea of well we if we're going to give advice on what treatment. We should have that treatment even with us. You know suggesting taking something that you don't have with you doesn't do anybody any good so we're also going to have to have inventory management to understand what's there and there's a lot of different solutions lucians to this. I mean even potentially people WanNa talk about Three d printing of of medications. And that's all very good and synthesizing stuff. Real time is very interesting but that also uses a lot of resources purses and you and you have to take a lot of raw materials. So part of our job is to quantify the different options Tests the different options and the swear you station as a national in a lab say maybe two to trouble shoot some things but then explain. It's called trade space. You're gonNA take a band aid or you're going to take Ibuprofen or if you're going to take a different different medication. They all have to be compared to one another. About how often would we use them. How much benefit you get from them you know? How many outcomes is this impact? How much do we have take per person for the crew so the expiration medical capabilities folks Ingest a lot of data. They also do a lot of modeling and probable probable probabilistic risk assessment And those are data Hungary tools that we just have to keep pouring more and more data into and we have to partner with groups That are collecting data such as the FDA and I h and other entities that we might find that are interested in working with us. We do a lot at conferences to talk about. WHO's got data out there? That can help us really sharpen kind of what does it mean to be human And how do these decisions support. Tools evolve. 'cause they're actually more and more common and even in hospitals and In the office space to give doctors kind of them real time feedback on especially when they're looking at something unusual and they have to do a try to do a rapid diagnosis. There are definitely some decision support tools evolving out there and even something like hear a lot about IBM Watson right SMART in-house not connected to the Internet. And Yeah and that'll be our case in terms of we could in the background upload new and different stuff And it would be vetted. That's the other part of this that we don't do anything Amos not validated. So it takes a lot of work to say. We're very confident and comfortable. That this is actually the data that we think is Really really the data that should go and inform the crew versus a lot of folks. Say Well why don't you do cutting edge or that you know. This is the newest journal article that came out and I was like well. That's great now. We get to see the test of time you know. It has to be redone. Someone else has to independently verify that those are accurate results before we would kind of really injust them. Yeah maybe reliability is more a concern but it sounds like what are they really comes down to is deep. Space Exploration has a lot of constraints. If you could you can bring everything he wanted and have instant communication. But that's not the case. Yeah and it comes down to and when we say vehicle I think it conjures up car plane what people are used to and and kind of the paradigm the name of being able to get more or different along the way and for the Mars mission. That's not the case whatsoever. You can't even do resupply you can pre deploy and catch up to something but you you still had to to prospectively determine what that stuff was you sent so I always describe. It now is like you know. We're really building an exit planet. We're not really building a vehicle. Wow Wow that's an interesting way to think of it because I think it's it kind of makes you step back in like if I had to think about all the air water. Oxygen Food nutrients all the medical like. That's a much bigger undertaking than the concept of a vehicle to me anyway. Yeah absolutely Let's go to the next one next one's countermeasures. Human Health countermeasures here so so this is really where the physiology the deep dive into human physiology. That change over time that characterizing how the human body adapts to spaceflight in what what direction do these systems go. And why and if we need a countermeasure how do we develop them And the other part of this is contested countermeasure. You definitely are looking for the outcome of interest like you'll have a hypothesis. Let's just take something very tangible in terms of muscle loss. So we're GONNA. They do resist of exercise. Because we know that loading skeletal muscle will at least maintain skeletal muscle volume and strength So our hypothesis would be if we he can load somebody one hour a day. You know with so many pounds or force you know we could achieve that but what we also have to make sure as we're looking at that and testing Matt hypothesis that we look on the other side which is what risks could we be causing by doing the countermeasure so your body does changing spaces. I said one of the things you hear about a lot. Is People Welcome back taller. I think is tweeted about two inches or something. Yeah it ends up. Being a couple couple of centimeters can be can be as much as an interest. So and what's interesting is every day and night our body goes through a lengthening and shortening process. So at night while you're laying down your spine kind of expanding and unloads food and you are a little taller in the morning when you stand up then you are when you go to bed at night because you compress yourself because you're vertical and gravity and you got squishy stuff between each of your Vertebra on the disks and your body kind of settles down and you go through this kind of cyclic. Nature's that's a very normal process for your spine but when crew members go into space flight. It's not only laying down but we said slightly head down would be kind of the feeling anyway. So your body gets unloaded for long periods of time while your spine not only along long eats but it actually straightens and there's been a lot of reports of back pain over decades now of spaceflight. This really couldn't understand. Why well we think we finally figured it out and that as the spine straightens all the muscles and ligaments that allow your your spine to be in your spine to be in an s shape? Well when it's straighter than the s shape. Those ligaments now are being stretched muscles being stretched in a way. That's pretty uncomfortable. Why you're adapting? Well when you exercise. If we were to load somebody on their shoulders shoulders like in a squat and now your spine is no longer. That s shape is now more straight. We have a little potential for having me think a risk to the in injury to your disks or your vertebra interest. So we would carefully load somebody or change the way you would hold the Bar And we designed exercise equipment of course so we could take into consideration that change because we wanna get the benefit of the countermeasure and minimize or eliminate any risk. So we're often. I think we talk about a lot more on earth when we talk about medications. You you talk about the reason you're taking the medication the effective reason and then the side effects and you're like how much side effects my willing to tolerate to get the benefit so each countermeasure has to be looked tat in that way so we have to make sure we pay attention to not only what we wanted it to do what we thought it was going to do but the things. We didn't understand like the unintended consequences. So that element is really designed to look across all those things. Yeah you need that deep focus. Because he's not just okay. Yeah we're going to resist exercise because it goes a little bit deeper than that. Yeah and if we're GONNA do it how do you do it safely to maximize benefit and minimize risk So yeah that's really what they do. And it's a very broad portfolio Yosi gastrointestinal immune cardiovascular. Yeah so there are an exciting group and they've got a lot of breath and depth for shit. I can't wait to talk to him. We'll we'll take a deep dive with them to Next one is research operations and integration. Yeah that is our implementing arms so one of the interesting parts of the work we do do is doing. Science in space is incredibly challenging. You're probably not gonNA have most of the tools you're traditionally used to having at your bedside if you're a wet scientist pissed So this is the group of experts that really get us to the point where we can fly in experiment and we have confidence that the experiment will produce results. We we can interpret. So here's talk about Really like a type two error. which is you know getting a false negative Those are things you really really want to avoid like. I just didn't do measurements correctly and I missed the signal False positives are another one but those you can you can design to test for so so but this group is really a specialist and saying how do we if development of hardware How do we make it space flight worthy? How do we test it to owned a space now? How do we launch it already? Right procedure so that the crew can operate it and deploy it. Sometimes it's medical testing like Veena puncture. How do you take blood blood sample from yourself for each other? They do the training for that They are also very helpful in managing blood volume. So lots of people right now I mentioned diving into the molecular ocular. World and Omega Omega relies on things like blood as a large staple of their resources to do their experiments so We have have limits on how much blood we can take from each remember per month so they kind of what we call it racking in sacking We look across. WHO's in WHO's in the flight cue for blood volume volume What are the priorities? What are the objectives and kind of have to decide how the blood volume is used? They also designed the tubes or certify the tubes to fly. We can't just fly any any type two that you might get when you go get blood taken your local flat amongst So they really do everything from the full life cycle of of experimentation. They come in very early in projects and do feasability so they tell us you know. Can this be flown this way. How much modification? How much hardware has to be built? they do deflate Q.. And they also do what are called informed consent briefings of the crew because they're all test subjects they volunteer for our science So they pretty much coordinate all that all they. I also coordinate the data streams back to the investigators said they can receive their data and they help us manage. What are called data sharing? You know before you mentioned. Data is good well. Well it's even better when you don't have to be the one who collects it you just get to share you know someone else's getting pleasant makes him the data more valuable And keeps the burden off of say the crew from collecting the same thing ten times so they work really hard at finding those types of efficiencies so that we are as like as least least invasive and is least obtrusive to the crew so because they have other science they have to do they have other operations they have to do and they don't want their blood taken all the time not all the time but they understand that the bodily fluids are precious resource Especially in to make the best use out of them is a great way to put it the job. Definitely on that. And that's that's a big job Let's wrap it up with Space Radiation this is another big one right. Yeah so space radiation it is an interesting element element And not my background. I've had to learn a lot about it in the past couple of years more deeply than ever so when I was on the operation side it really was about safe days in space and we we have a space radiation analysis group. That monitor space weather has a lot to do with solar cycle And there are different types of radiation in space some that we don't really have to deal with with here on earth because we're protected by the magnetosphere and the International Space Station has a pretty significant level of protection as well not as good as we do But it's not like deep space will be so that's a whole different animal for sure from Radiation Perspective so the space radiation actually before became an element. Nature was a program element actually when I talked about the bio astronautic roadmap. It actually was this other program. Element wasn't quite a big program P. S. program but it has had its own life and it was really dedicated using a earth-based Simulator at Department of Energy Facility that we use at Brookhaven National Laboratory And a variety of experiments what is the biological impact of these things that are called heavy heavy ions which again are the particle said. Don't make it through our atmosphere and kind of affect us so we don't really have any earth-based data to sell us. What is the biological relevance but there are lots of unknowns about we do understand humans and radiation from the Gamma and x Ray perspective? Yeah yeah those are A large resource of that data tells US epidemiologically. What happens like after Hiroshima and Nagasaki has been a refugee reference populations appellations where what happens to these teams? If they survive it when do the different disease processes start to take place and how severe this disease processes so the big one that's always discussed as cancer right and that's a very common and and you can see that mental connection between something damaging managing your body in that way and turning a cell to a direction where it proliferates in an uncontrolled manner and becomes cancerous source So there's there's there's a lot to be concerned about but we are learning more and more about how we study it to be honest Recently we just had advances made at the facility where they can can do what's called G.. CR which is lactic cosmic rays a simulation of it. And that means you can run a complex series of these heavy ion beams in your experiment experiment which is more similar? Similar SIM- similar. Yes yes more similar to deep space ace radiation than ever before but we're really excited about some opportunities with gateway and the lunar opportunities to characterize in an in designed experiments to study space radiation there that will give us the opportunity to validate all the work we've done on the ground To be able to make stronger. Conclusions inclusions The key thing there is understanding potential countermeasures So we work actually with a lot of folks who do use radiation as a source of therapy For Cancer Treatments so particularly Proton therapy is of interest to us because the ideas they need and and want to cure you of your cancer today and they may use radiation to do that but that may inadvertently give you a different cancer later in your life because it'll damage tissue in the surrounding ending area so they want to prevent that in the future as well. The medical community does so they are actually studying a lot of treatments that you would give it the tiny receive that radiation therapy be to protect the healthy tissue. So it's one of those again just like we have that tension and have to struggle with choices of today about effects of tomorrow so we we are learning a lot from then on a biological level. How can we protect people in general from radiation damage? So I think we've made some progress there but we're going to continue to invest in that element will have. Don't some definitely some interesting. Yeah I'm I'm definitely seeing. Why there are these elements weather organized? The way they are. And why you need such depth You need those checks and balances right because you come up with solution because you need to make sure that that's a good solution. You mentioned the radiation example. You mentioned the the countermeasure example. When you're doing those workouts you don't want those negative effects Moving to risks. You know where we're talking about how to what happens to the Human Eamon Body. We want to understand that we want to develop countermeasures for that to protect the humans and make them successful ultimately but I know there are these risks that human that are identified. And there's a number thirty three risks that's identified for human spaceflight. We'll have to go through all thirty three but in general. What do they tell us what what do they they provide for the US understanding what questions to ask when doing human research? Yes I think it is exactly that you know it. It is a framework work to help us get our arms around the human system within human spaceflight. So there's a lot of debate and there has been for decades actually More decades than you and I have been around for about these risks and even when I mention the BIOS Janata Grid Map my very first meeting I went to Newly newly minted employee was by astronaut. murden meeting in the whole thing was about what was called lumping splitting so when you have these risks. When you're going to talk about about the human you can always group them in different ways or you can split the mounts to be more and more sensitive or specific and there's always groups groups of thought that will pull you in one way or the other but eventually in order to get some work done you kind of have to consensus on a format that we're just going to agree to uh-huh disagreements aside and say OK given the lumping in this building that's gone on? Do these represent holistically away that we can get at the totality of the human in to know if we're good to go to exploration mission or not so based on that evolution from bio astronautics roadmap to the human research program was already that down down select process and I kind of mentioned a lot of vetting had gone on a lot of external review had gone on that said that these really represented the biological systems in their totality totality and that underneath each of those risks are many risk factors. That if you really look at you like okay I can see how one almost every risk risk is linked to one or more other risks going back to even your countermeasure statement that there's no one thing in your body when you think about the dials that if you turned it slightly that you wouldn't be turning in another dial that you'd better be keeping your eye So it's again. There's a lot of potential there for someone else to have a different perspective in articulate them differently differently but I think the consensus is that those represent the best holistic approach to covering the human system within spaceflight We do structure them. I'm in a way that we use probabilistic risk assessment and Another board process that gives us a likelihood and consequence and that's really where they get their priority ranking and that says there's so much we either don't know about this thing and the consequences could be so severe that it's going to get what's called a red and that really at this point from the the human research program and the agency. Perspectives red is very typically communicated. Not unlike anyone else who's uses red which stop it is a no go like this risk is not in a posture. That's acceptable and we have a lot of work to do to get this into an acceptable risk posture. So that we can fly So you'll see a group of red like if you go to the H. P. website it's a very transparent document that we use and then there's a group that are yellow and those are caution. Those either say that we haven't completely mitigated it it were. We don't know enough about it to mitigate it completely we've got open questions but it's not in the area of catastrophic outcomes that were saying that it's a no go. Oh it's just. There's a lot of caution to be used there. And then we have risks that we think we've characterize enough. And we know good mitigation strategies that we call in green and those are ones that we've kind of deprioritize and I don't want to kind of mischaracterize him and it's not that we actually don't do work on them Because they're involved with the other risks but they are not the primary target of reducing any further a byproduct of a really good countermeasure for a red or a yellow could make green even better header. You'd WanNa make sure going back to your earlier statement. You don't want to inadvertently turn a green yellow or green red by countermeasure that you injected another area and so we're we're constantly looking across the risks whenever we alter one and remember. We're doing this on paper right now but there is usually dated to tell you the cross talk between tween risks and you really have to pay attention to that and there have been occasions where we would design or we would look for work that was designed To kind of pull without that kind of detail that helped us understand better. The Cross talk between risk. Because I'm not so obvious Particularly in areas that are continually emerging like the immune system And the microbiome of course which doesn't sit neatly in any one element 'cause it's present throughout the body. can affect multiple systems it can be affected by multiple stumps so it doesn't seem to have a starter finish Is just always in the mix so it has to be assessed. Even when you're doing things you wouldn't have anticipated. So if you're doing understanding psychological stress you would went on a measure the immune system in the microbiome If you think you're going to give a nutritional supplement matt and improve the microbiome you probably should measure output of behavior Yeah they're linked and there's more and more data territially to talk about behavioral disorders and the microbiome treatments of the microbiome. That have been very impactful to those behavioral disorders. And it's very unexpected. They don't they can't tell you how. Oh but that's one. Where correlation is so strong it it it is verging on causality? They just can't pinpoint the mechanism And there is is a thing called the gut brain axis to pay attention to so how your mind works and how your your Gi tract works vice versa. So they again probably hinges on the microbiome and a lot of messaging whether it be chemical messages or hormonal messages but they are definitely communicating with each other and so any interventions that we do our test have to look at all those systems simultaneously. And that's the power of getting samples and sharing data That we don't have to stand up a unique protocol for an experiment but we can make sure that we have a standard protocol. Its use to give us a good reference point and that's something. We instituted pretty recently only which was called standard measures for that particular effort and it said we can gain a lot of efficiency this way and we can also give a really good backstop of data of anyone undoing. Anything experimental So I think that's how the risks have been approached we review them annually And we work with another board called the Human System Rhys Board. That has a lot of what we call stakeholders here. A lot of people have a voice at the table to weigh in on the evidence base. And and how we're are calculating that likelihood by consequence and whether we're doing more worker different work so it's a very active part of our program and it really determines kind of our priorities and and how we go after the the work that we do when we make our research announcements there is so much to human research. I cannot wait to peel back the layers but JEN. What excites you about the future? Just everything we've talked about. You know looking back even looking back on all the human research since you came here and two thousand four and what has progressed with human research just in that time and then looking forward to particularly artists in the near future here and what we can look forward to for human research on the moon. I think it went. What's so exciting? is every time we discover. Discover anything about the human body points to the amazing resilience robustness of the human condition Given the right raw materials the right support system The right consideration We're pretty amazing species And I think we can rise to almost any challenge. I haven't seen one and yet so I just think that to find the data and see the data really help us you know. Zero in on how to enable the crew of the future in the the diversity of crew that can go you know the no limits and that the some of the best outcomes have come from the most diverse participants So I think it's broken down all kinds of barriers and preconceived notions about who's fit for spaceflight and WHO's not So artists artists is opening up the window to deep space research for us That will give us a lot more confidence and ability to gain those insights about questions. We've we've not been able to answer here on earth because we just can't simulate that environment We're trying to be really smart about it. I mean artists initially is going out as a very lean effort. uh-huh leaning people the first woman and the next man in two thousand twenty four. I mean it's a full court. Press to accomplish that to get a lander and sent module that we don't have them so all all resources are being put into accomplish that task so we want to be on board. We want to be a great partner. We try to do things as so. Our keywords are autonomous light in lean that's what our requirements are and that's how we operate and kind of how am od which is our mission operations director. It's trained like your fly so we do science like we WANNA fly. You know you have to have a vision for how this thing will come together in the end you know what is that how how will it. How will it manifest? Because that needs to be in your mind as you're designing your way you get there because otherwise go a bit astray we have folks who WanNa do you know large devices and everybody wants their own countermeasure and you're like this. This will not be an active operational solution. So it's really integrating all those complex complex challenges and results and going back to that picture where I don't have the puzzle box in front of me the each time you get a new piece. It's really exciting. To go back to the table and say where does this fit. What does it tell me about the other pieces? I have here because it may cause a whole shift that I couldn't have anticipated We do a lot of work in the Antarctic. That's been a real resource of some eye-opening opening isolation and confinement studies So it's been pretty exciting to see how that's played a role and that goes back again to the immune system and things that look very much like station. We have human data from station and we can find very similar human responses down the Antarctic and people didn't expect that so some of it's not about being spaceflight late per se. It's about being that challenge that stressful environment and the human condition. So it's been interesting equalizer along the away but in Artem Assia definitely the challenge ahead of us And it is definitely a Mars forward activity for us. Wonderful Jim Fogarty. This was a wonderful wonderful overview of all the human research history current future on everything human research talking to you today. Pleasure be here. Thank you very much. The only Hey thanks for sticking around really good conversation. We had with Dr Jen fogarty today but the overview of human research in space space the history. The future and everything in between this is the first of a six part series on the human research program has five more to go. And we're going to dive deep into do those elements. So I hope you stick around for those next five episodes. You can find us on NASA dot Gov Slash podcasts along with many other NASA podcasts. That are out there. And if you really want to dive dive deep into human research right now. You just can't wait for us or you want to take part in some of the human research. That's being done all across NASA across the world. Really we'll get into that and over the next five episodes. Let's go to NASA DOT GOV slash. HP Houston we have a podcast is on social media. We usually post on the Johnson Space Center Pages facebook book twitter and Instagram. Use the HASHTAG. Ask Nessa on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show. If you'd like to have a topic come on. Just make sure to mention his for Houston. We have a podcast. This episode was recorded on November Eighteenth. Twenty nineteen thanks to our experiment Pat Ryan nor Moran Olinda Toledo Bredon. Emily Maldon and the Human Research Program team team for helping to bring this altogether and thanks again to Dr Jen fogarty for taking the time to come on the show. We'll be back next week.

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