20 Episode results for "Museum Of Natural"
Live From The New Mexico Museum of Natural History
"This week on the children's hour in a broadcast from the New Mexico Museum of Natural History Rian Science in Albuquerque we learn about the latest in fossil discoveries worldwide including an ice age armadillo found in New Mexico featuring musical guests Rowan and the Youth Jazz collaborative. It's all in an hour. The children's hour is produced by the Children's Hour Inc.. A nonprofit dedicated to producing high-quality Ludi kids public radio support provided by the friends of the children's hour learn more at children's our dot. Org meow Wolf is a proud supporter of the children's hour meow. Wolf believes that engaging educational content is one of the best ways to fuel a child's imagination and that's truly powerful thing. Stay tuned for in our case. What do you call l.. A. Dinosaur that wears a cowboy hat and boots. I don't know what age Iran is. Source the children's hour from on how in New Mexico <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> there <music> yeah <music> <music> Rohan in the Youth Jazz collaborative right here on the children's hour. We're are at the New Mexico Museum of Natural History and science. We are so delighted to be here. I am Katie stone with the children's hour right here in Albuquerque New Mexico and the New Mexico Museum of Natural History and science is a treasure here in Albuquerque for learning about fossils and natural L. history. We're GONNA find out all about it on the show. We're interviewing paleontologists and so much more so I I wanted to introduce everybody on the crew which let's start over here. Hello it's my hi. I'm Sienna Yellow Sally. Hi It's Miam- Hello Hi and my name is Evelyn hide seven hello. My name is Ruby Hi. My name is Katharina hello. My name is Daniel. Wow what a crew. Let's hear it for the crew. Everybody Hello Crew Hi. Lou Yes up here. We are broadcasting testing with a huge fan and there I would love to know more about this ban Rohan and the youth jazz collaborative. Can you give us an introduction and tell us who's up. There are the music director for the Youth Jazz collaborative. We have we have kids. This is a program for for kids twelve of eighteen middle schoolers and high schoolers. I'd like to introduce Roadmap Gypsy Piano and Josaia AH FIDEL ON PIANO vibraphone. I think you Isaiah Garcia on trumpet and Drums Zac Nunez on Bass Melissa Hinman on Vocals Ukulele and Percussion Grace Wilson on trombone. Tom and Hannah Wilson on clarinet. Well thanks guys. Grace also plays drums on the show today here at the museum <hes> we are going to be seeing for the very first time at a fossil that has never been on display before. We're GONNA learn all about it. This is an ice age fossil that was basically an Armadillo the size of a car hard to believe such animals existed but yes Rohan in the youth jazz collaborative. Can you play another one for us sure we're this is an original composition by on around the gypsy. It's called Mitre fantasy children's Sir <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> breath <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> give it up for Rohan McKinsey and the Youth Dad's collaborative the quite delighted to welcome back on the children's hour a longtime friend of the show but also a man who does a lot of heat. He Digs New Mexico like literally paleontologist Gary Morgan Welcome back to the children's hour so glad time in the studio now you get to show all your cool things to people all over here in the end the lobby hair so well Gary Moore when we have a lot of questions for you and the very first question is coming from our friend Evelyn Evelyn. Are you ready for your question. Why is Palin Child. Just we'll paleontologist study fossils but to simply we study ancient life so people study history they studied the history of people and we study the history of life on earth so and we do that through the study of fossils and it could be plants it could be dinosaurs could be our friend that flipped it on the giant armadillo that I'm GonNa talk about any other study of fossils history history of life. What is the difference between a paleontologist and an archaeologist. That's a good one. I get that all the time because not not to be disrespectful that I get it being get accused of being an archaeologist all the time mostly by reporters if we're out in the field and and it's a lot of archaeologists on my best friends are outlets. They study studied history of people culture. Archaeology is what archaeologists will dig up whatever archeological sites look at artifacts and things like that but they all relate to people were looking at as I said again plants and animals so not so you study the history of people the cultural a cultural anthropologists if you study plants animals fossils than your paleontologists. That's the difference okay so I have a question too. I was wondering do you find fossils just about everywhere in New Mexico New Mexico's terrific because we have a very diverse geology literally in the entire history of life. Not Everything is found in the all over the earth but last five hundred million years of time and we have really good fossils almost rocks of almost all those ages are represented in New Mexico so you have to know something about the geology about the rocks to know where to go. Do you WanNa find a dinosaur. You go one place you WanNa find a mammoth third one of these scripted on she goes somewhere else but anyhow. New Mexico is a great place for fossils. How deep are fossils are. How deep underground are fossils well? It really really varies a actually pretty much have to be on the surface for us to find them. We do a lot of what we call surveying. We'll go to an area where we think there are fossils and we walk around on the surfacing. We'll find like we found the bones of this eroding on the surface and then we dig and then sometimes we'll have a court we call chlorine. Sometimes they'll go very deep but for the most apart we tend to find things right on the surface they eroded out of rocks at the surface of the Earth Gary. Can you talk about the you brought out for the visual. Audience and we're certainly posting photos to radio on Instagram facebook and twitter but you brought out this never shown before fossil and it is quite a special guy now that looks like a toy that you're just as I realized through my career as a paleontologist not everybody's he's had comparative Anatomy classes in college so they have trouble going from a bone to what the animal looked like in life so I bought this at our gift shop. I'm not doc plugging the gift shop. I'm just saying that you'd go to any gift shop and a museum around the country and you'll find dinosaurs but only rarely do they have mammals. I study mammals. I'm not a dinosaur paleontology million dollars. You'll talk to Tom Williamson little bit who has a dinosaur paleontologist but any rate this animal was found south of Las cruces and it's actually a new discovery. That's that's an old discovery. I found this thing twenty years ago before. Most of the kids format to all the kids here in this audience were born. I didn't think it was much there was much to it. It looked a little scrap you so we made what we call a plaster jacket we use plaster and Burlap to chase the fossil to preserve it brought it back here and it sat in our Museum Storage Bridge Facility for twenty years until somebody needed a project we'd run out of projects and we have a fossil works lab right here. People volunteers will remove fossils Chirac's just about a month ago. The volunteers started working on this and all of a sudden. It was way way more interesting than I thought it was. It turns out to be the skeleton. Never baby flipped it on this. This is what an adult clipped down would look like if you multiply this by about forty times it would be about six feet long. Maybe three or four feet tall weigh about a tonne baby. No I'm sorry the adult the adult the baby is maybe not a baby sort of juvenile a youngster like a teenager they had a shell that was made out of bones very thick bones and you might wonder why haven't Armand it is an Armadillo I mean I'm just going to say for the listening audience. He's basically quickly showing us. Everybody loved bill but this giant lifted on is a relative of the living everybody's favourite folk critter the armadillo. You'll find that on the road in Texas all the time in Florida where I spent a lot of time. This is an animal. That's it's a mammal. It's originally from South America and the Glickman's sounds originally came from South America and that's a little bit of the story also how they got to New Mexico from South America but any rate these guys have a shell. That's actually made a bones so underneath what you see here which looks like maybe a material like our fingernails. There's bones and in fact he's getting more stuff his tray right now and there's a pattern pattern that pattern has helped tells us that this animal with bones this about an inch thick that formed a shell completely impervious your shell that was used for protecting against predators so these are called lifted on. We're talking to Gary Morgan. He's a paleontologist here. At the New Mexico Museum Ziam of Natural History and science year listening to the IT will be children's hour is produced by the children's hour incorporated a New Mexico Zico nonprofit dedicated to producing high quality kids public radio. You can find out more at children's our dot Org support provided by friends of the Children's fronts our <music> <music> <music> <music> row in the Youth Jazz collaborative. The children's hour we're broadcasting casting from the New Mexico Museum of Natural History and science here in Albuquerque New Mexico and with us on the show is is Gary Morgan. He is a paleontologist here at the museum and also joining us Dr Tom Williamson he is also a paleontologist kissed. Are you are a paleontologist curator. Something like that was your official title. Oh I'm a curator of paleontology just like every so we're both curator's and your doctor Tom. That's right okay. I'm so excited you're here. Gary just is revealing to us for the very first time a glimpse to don that has has never been shown before and it was discovered twenty years ago but never really explored until a month ago and here it is. It looks like an Armadillo Gary. Tell us about these creatures. When did they live? And where did they live so this one is about two million years old. We found it in a fossil site south of LAS cruces between Las cruces and the Mexican border but the group. I showed up about forty million years ago in South America so they've been around for a long time as I mentioned earlier their relatives types of Armadillos at B._U.. Are Living animal that would be most similar and then about. I'm going to say three million years ago. North America and South America at that time South America was an island incontinent. They became connected at Panama kind of where the Panama Canal is an animal's could go back and forth. It's called an inner change and these giant Lipid ons lumbering along somehow managed to walk all the way from South America to New Mexico and left their bones behind for us to find. Is it important to study paleontology alien technology well to me. It's important just to be able to understand what lived on earth before and a lot of these this glinted on you haven't seen one walking around their extinct so we are specialists in studying studying extinction and this is naturally occurring extinction but as we all know there's too many extinctions of living animals and plants going on today so we hope that maybe by studying the natural extinctions how those occurred maybe we can prevent extinctions of modern animals animals that we don't want to go extinct. We have a question here from an audience member. Yes please. How did you find this fossil in the ground so this was actually as I meant mentioned in my earlier it was right on the surface? That's how we found it. Whether it's a very well known fossil collector in fact his name is Paul Sealey. He's the one that found the best Ibiza and it's named in his honor found owned a couple bones on the surface of the Shell and he showed them to me and I recognize my thought is a baby flippant on for my experience and then we started digging and I made what I described that we used strips of burlap so can plaster to make cast around this thing to bring it back to the museum but really just a couple of little bones on the surface and from that point I used my experience variance to determine the I think looks like something interesting. We should take this back home. Is that what it takes scary to know if something is a fossil or just a boring question very commonly. How do you know this is a fossil at it's it's really just an experience you know where you are in other words? I know that geology so it's a certain certain age there's a certain kind of animal from my experience. I should be looking for so when I'm looking for these. I'm not looking for dinosaurs because the age of the Rock is wrong but the texture the size I used to shape are different from rocks and we do get people to bring in rocks of the identified all the time that they think are fossil so it it happens yes. How do you know how old it ladies well that that's where the geology comes in we study? Tom And I are both taken. Many geology courses at U._N._M.. And other places and you can buy certain air techniques geological techniques one is there's a geochemical technique where you can determine the age what we call the absolute age of volcanic rocks and if we find these volcanic rocks that are near some of our fossils that will tell us that say the dinosaurs are seventy five million years old because of the rocks. You can't really for the most part date the fossils themselves directly so you describe to the listeners at home what did on looked like sure so I had my little model here. His little model looks like a little model but it's funny. A lot of people have described this thing as looking like a tank. You know a giant land tortoise that you'd see zoo there reptiles but this is the mammal answer to the giant land tortoise so it had a big shell big dome Shell. They were as much as six or eight feet long there are three or four feet tall and weighed about a ton so they're very large animals. They're very slow. They had this big thick bony shell as armored armored Shell to protect them from predators because they couldn't escape they were too slow and the other thing is that they were not predators. They were that very tall teeth that indicates that they <unk> a coarse grasses and other things got a lot of grit in their diet so they were herbivores. Not Predators armadillos today the the grandchildren eh they are actually and there are some study that was done just recently. You may have heard of this. They're actually being able to now extract DNA. They called ancient d._n._A.. From fossils from bones primarily Gerald from the Ice Age they did this on clip it on from South America and they're very closely related to Armadillos in fact they nest so to speak within the family you you may know that there's probably ten or fifteen kinds of armadillos and South America not just we have won the night the nine banded armadillo Patagonian South America. They have fifteen kinds of armadillos but within that group Armadillos the lipid aunts fall out according to the ancient DNA Gary Morgan is a paleontologist here at the Natural History Museum. Thank you you for being with us on the children's hour. We're GONNA leave here for folks to look at for a minute and while we're talking to Gary Morgan about this did on it got me thinking about the the biggest I beast and for folks who are not dinosaur lovers like myself Dr Tom Williamson. Can you explain the Bist I beast yes so I'm a paleontologist like Gary but I tend to find fossils. That are quite a bit older so I'm looking at fossils from the late cretaceous. These are are about sixty five to seventy million years old and I collect these mostly up in northwestern New Mexico so back in the late nineteen ninety s <hes> I excavated the Bist I beast and we have a big animatronic. A big robot dinosaur. That's based on the best I beast real name of. It is Big Stock Iverson C._P._I.. So the Sealy I is based is because it was discovered by a volunteer we're here Paul. Sealy Misaki verster is kind of a Latin and Greek and Navajo words for destroyer from the badlands. It's fair to say it at this. animatronic beast is he's starting to come to life which means every thirty minutes he comes to life and you're GonNa hear that on the radio here in just a second <hes> Dr Williams and he really looks like a tyrannosaurus rex like what's the difference for those of us who are not you to know how that that's not a T.. Rex a t Iraq's is the biggest and the very last of the big tyrannosaur dinosaurs bestow he reverser the BIS type East lived about ten million years before forty racks and he's a he's a distant cousin so he's not only older. He lived alongside a bunch of other translators that are all related to transverse rex. He did not give rise to t rex. He's kind of an off branch and he's we say he's more primitive so he doesn't GonNa have a lot of the same features of T. Rex but he resembles T. rex a lot. He's just smaller. Have you found any real large. Fossils news of dinosaurs like the T. rex here in New Mexico. Yes t rex has been discovered in New Mexico. Probably the best specimen comes from of all places elephant butte reservoir so for non new Mexicans. This is a damning of the Rio Grande and SORTA southern New Mexico and it made for a huge you know kind of like a lake mead sort of Lake that people water ski and vote on Oh. My goodness here comes the best I beast you could hear it in the background and would you agree with Gary that even your discoveries are right on the surface or it seems like if you're discovering something hundreds of millions of years old we'd have to pig yeah all our discoveries made kind of the old fashioned way we walk around out in the badlands so we go to places where there's a lot of erosion you find that in in the Badlands New Mexico has lots of badlands and those are the perfect places to find dinosaur bones. I love it and can you talk a little bit. What about did you always love dinosaurs? Are you like one of those kids who loved dinosaurs so much and you thought I have to do this for the rest of my life. Or how did you come about being being a paleontologist. How does someone become a paleontologist? I loved dinosaurs. I'm a You're listening to the children's hour we are broadcasting from the New Mexico Museum of Natural History and science. Will we're GONNA come back with more educators worse in just a minute. This is Andrew Poly. Hey on the hugh grant to do keep a Saturday trouble up Dan. We can make it through got enough. How many times CBS things there's Aw hey you when the day's news came came Jason shattered between the Ah aw fish ah <music> loudest in Canada in two two three four thirty well aw also lead John blanding you know years ago. Eh Planning now the children will wake up Bob and the flies to get along without me. They'll say it really go it. I wish dinosaur back take on China <music> dinosaur to come back. I wanted to come back sat back down uh-huh the routes in the modern lovers. I'm little dinosaur before that. Tiny dinosaur is interim polly from a release called ear snacks and you're listening to the children's hour. I'm Katie stone and and here with a bunch of kids. We're going to interview next Mike Sanchez. He is a museum educator here at the New Mexico Museum of Natural History and science and we've got questions for you right off the Bat Mike Sanchez. Are you ready. Wonderful sounds good. Do you think you've found fossil. That's an excellent question. If you find a fossil you never know if it might turn out to be something very very important. What you do is if you find a fossil when you think it might be a backbone and might be a bone or something take a picture of it. Don't move it if you can help it and bring it to the attention of your local goal university or your local museum and let them know what you found interesting story little boy three years old was out in not too far from where we live here in Albuquerque and he found dinosaur eggshells and it turned turned out to be something very very important and so if he hadn't had his eyes on the ground and figured out exactly exactly where those were from. We would never know about those so so find something. Let somebody know all right. It's important the minute. A specimen is taken away from where it was found. It loses loses. Its scientific value and what it's all about. It's all about the science wait. WHY DOES IT LOSE. Its scientific value if you move it from where you found it. That's a great question the layers that they are in tell you something about when the fossil where what comes from age it is all this information if it's moved from that suddenly you lose that very very important information they do all kinds of interesting things with fossils even sometimes in jackets rockets they will not only get a G._P._S. point on it. They'll even put a compass on there and glued into the jacket so they know which way was north when the fossil was deposited posited after it's been found. Why do all those details matter like what direction the fossil was found. Why does that matter well. Every time we study a fossil we learn more and more and more about when the animal died about things that we never even knew kind of really interesting interesting is that somebody might be an asking asking a question twenty years from now that no one even thought about today and if we didn't have that information mation then that's stuff that has gone away. It's basically you lose it. Once you take something out of its context out of where the fossil was found or were was it suddenly it just no longer as you never even know what questions you might be asking one. Ask Twenty years. Here's down the way Mike Sanchez is a museum educator here at the New Mexico Museum of Natural History and science in Albuquerque and and telling us what to do if you think you've found a fossil I've just going to ask and you can just answer. My crew can just answer in a big yes or no. Do you think think you've ever found a fossil yeah. My Dad found petrified woods petrified wood. That's pretty cool. I think I found an alien fossil social and alien fossil. That's cool. I think you should you should take a picture of that and to show that in to your museum educators just like Mike Sanchez inches in the background rowing in the Youth Jazz collaborative. You're listening to children's museum in Albuquerque. It will be right <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> give it up a Rohan and the youth jazz is collaborative broadcasting from the New Mexico Museum of Natural History and science here in Albuquerque and there are there's an animatronic dinosaur right in front of us the beast and he's he's opening his mouth and closing his eyes and he sure looks alive. He's animatronic yen here around the children's hour we love to feature kids who are talented and that's why we would really love to hear something else from Rohan and the Youth Jazz collaborative and I think they're ready for us. I believe so they're getting in position and there's probably I don't know eight kids up there playing jazz just for us here at the museum and some of these tunes are original written by row and MC Jim Z.. Himself self and others are not but these kids practice a lot and you can tell so whenever you're ready Rohan in the youth jazz collaborative take it away. Staw <music> shy will <music> <music>. I spoke to because she grins. Souso mm-hmm <music>. Yeah <music> G <music> Rohan in the Youth Jazz collaborative. Wow can we give it up for them. We something something wow vocal Melissa fantastic wow. How old are you Melissa. Right now sixteen singing ever since I was in the second grade so yeah what of voice what an incredible voice you are listening to the children's. Are we're GONNA come back to more ruin in the youth jazz collaborative in just a minute and in the meantime. We thought we'd give you a little taste of this. This is Laurie Berkner. This is her classic but she decided to make this as a remix. Tell me what you think and we we we. We are the dinosaurs. Bill Orange Park part. It's time time <music> Saint Louis mm-hmm ed we we the we we aw sores were here and now they're gone. Nobody seen one for alone aw dolls on a sores Taran source rex. Isn't it interesting how the world has changed a source plants and some eight meet worms roots things that we don't <music> them imprisoning how the world is <music>. They do great very his tail award. Despite soliver his enemies will tell you <music> knows when he sees the animals mm-hmm sixty thousand dollars that this look like the <music> everyone hit the decks when they saw a rent a source left to his life always waiting for always always ready for a day or night sights so don't worry you'll never see them unless you go with your mom and dad to the museum 'cause dinosaurs with some lace. No one is sure nobody Birdie and find them. Many just their insurance <music> interesting how the world interesting how the World Enchaine <music> interesting how the world <music> <hes> that in the days of the dinosaurs when Durant Soroush rex was king and there were plans and insects to some of them had wings though the dragonfly was much bigger were then his wings were two feet across and the helped him stay well out of the way of Tirana service wrecks. The boss us back in the days deserve the dinosaurs Wednesday Zora sparked the round. They were big bugs buzzing up in the air. Bugs is on the ground though the cockroach men on appeal to you survival was his game and if you see I want to say that he looks just about the same it back in the days of Tinus owes two hundred million years ago and there were insects. We don't have now. Are you wondering how we know. Some of them were left behind behind pieces of them for us to five bosses. Tell the story to of the insects. The Earth wants new you back in the days of the dinosaurs when Theron source cracks was king. There were plants and insects to some of them. I'm good saying well. The cricket had lots to sing about. That's become very clear though the Dan he is still here <music>. Oh and some of them were behind pieces of us to fossils. Tell the story to you the insects the earth wants new <music> <music> <music>. You're listening to the children's hour in the background Rohan in the Youth Jazz collaborative many thanks to the New Mexico Museum of Natural History Rian Science in Albuquerque for hosting our show today special thanks to the museum educators deb Novak and Michael Sanchez Sanchez Paleontology creators Gary Mergen and Dr. Tom Williams the children's hour our is written and produced by Katie Stone with help from all of us kids on the crew. All of us on the kids crew and dress mm-hmm. Martinez provided are alive engineering and Jerry did Totta ran up Randa Board back at K._U.. And now we'll be back next week with another another edition of we're we're going to hear another one many many many things to Rohan and the Youth Jazz collaborative give it up for them. I hope you guys will play A._S.. Another one they're coming on with their last song. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you to our live audience. You guys are awesome and we'll catch you next week. For another edition of the Children's Children's hour <music> <music> <music> <music> yeah <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> the <music>. The children's hour is produced by the children's Hour Incorporated a New Mexico nonprofit dedicated to producing high high quality kids public radio support provided by the friends of the children's hour find out more at children's our dot Org there you can also find and our podcasts photos from the shows and our newsletter sign up meow. Wolf is a proud supporter of the children's hour meow. Wolf believes that engaging educational content is one of the best ways to fuel a child's imagination and that's truly a powerful thing y'all wolf dot COM com support also provided by the Albuquerque Community Foundations Infinite Gesture Fund our theme Music was written by C K Barlow Arlo. We'll be back next week with another addition of our kids.
Bugs Week Night Interview (8-16-2019)
"Chompers is produced by gamut and supported by good night's the number one night time underwear welcome back. It's time limpert shoppers your morning and night tooth brushing show tonight. Our jasmine is here with a special interview jasmine. Let's go thanks start brushing in the top of your mouth on one side and brush the inside outside and chewing side of each tooth to one the bugs week so we're talking to dr christine johnson who works at the american museum of natural history and she knows is a lot about thousands of different kinds of insects and arachnids insects for such small organisms. They're really incredibly powerful so so we ask dr christine some of your bug questions but i switch you're brushing to the other side of the top of your mouth and brush the molars in the way back okay so this question is from a kid name william and he asked <hes> how far do grasshoppers jump. That's a great question and grasshopper's can actually jump pretty far for their body size so they jumped between thirty inches and thirty eight inches in a dozen depend on the size of small grasshopper opera big grasshopper they can jump that far and that would be like a human jumping five stories up <hes> or like in three jumps a football field field switch to the bottom of your mouth pick aside and keep brushing this next question comes from a kid named kahlani and she asked just how do bees make honey so bs flyer to flowers they lap up nectar with their tongue when they come back to the nest they spit it up the nectar and they share it with another be in in the nest who then choose it and choose shoes for a bit and then that be passes that shoot up nectar to another be and through that process eventually they put it into comb in their honeycomb and then eventually you have money switch to the other side of the bottom of your mouth but don't brush too hard so do you have any advice for kids heads that think bugs are really cool and wanna learn more about bugs. I think one of the most important things to know is that insects are really really important for environment. They serve food for birds. They break down things that pass away. A lot of people are often afraid of insects but most insects are really beneficial on a lot of ways. That's that's it for chompers tonight. Special thanks to dr christine johnson aubrey miller and the american museum of natural history until next time three.
The Superpower of the Secret Names
"Hi, I'm Lindsay. And I'm Marshall welcome to tumble the show where we explore stories of science discovery. How do species get their names we're headed behind the scenes at the Smithsonian? National museum of natural history to meet a scientist with super naming superpowers. He's kind of see star superstar. And he's going to show us how he's discovered a named over fifty new species. Before we get going on this episode of tumble. We got some new patrons to thank Katherine in some water, Washington. Frankie Lowry Landau in Rita. Layton, Edman white who loves outer space and all things science Ahmad Tulloch, Alex and Helen to Haas Alicante Spain and Quinn also we want to wish happy birthday to elyssa who's turning eight on January sixteenth, Jake Seaver who's also turning eight on the seventeenth of January, and Sarah savage who wants to wish a happy day to all of the six seven and almost eight year olds and room. Twenty two Felicity Coughlan who's turning four on the first February layer Schwarzer who's also turning four on the fifth of February in our air who's turning seven on the six February. That's a lot of February birthdays, thanks to all of you into everyone who supports tumble on patriot. If you'd like to join these wonderful people and get a shoutout on your birthday, just go to patriot dot com slash Kumble. Podcast pledge the five dollar level or higher once again, that's patriot dot com slash tumble podcast Nelson. What to let you know that we are. So inspired by the support of our patrons. That were making a New Year's present. For all of our members on patriotic to find out more into vote on what the present will be go to patriot dot com slash tumbled cast and one more thing if your company is interested in sponsoring our show, please send an Email to sponsor at PR stuff. Oh archie. We asked our listeners what they would name a new species. And here's what five year old Frankie has the same species the Jack meal, and it has a body of Jaguar and hadn't tale of chameleon as took feathers when it's a baby can have a unicorn horn gets older and loses. New York zones. Pretty awesome. Is it a mammal is in a bird? Maybe it's all the above. I think it will completely turn our classification system on its head. That is for sure the unicorn part, I think especially is going to be confusing to scientists already gotten our walls out there. So what could be weird? I wonder what the scientific name of the Jag meal. Your would be. Reptilian unicorn is Jaguar. So who gets give species their proper scientific names when and why think about it 'cause we're about to start a journey to find out. If you ever get the chance to go to the Smithsonian national museum of natural history in Washington DC. You'll find incredible exhibits about fascinating science, but behind the walls of the exhibit. There's much much more. This Massoni is home to a collection of a hundred and forty five million scientific specimens less summer. We got to go behind closed doors with help from one of our favorite discovers of new species. So I'm Chris Ma and I'm a scientist here at the national museum of natural history. Chris is a sea star scientists that we featured in our season three episode. The surprising story of C star sticky feet. We met him at the giant squid kink in ocean hall any to this to his office. Yes. So we're looking at it's a table full of e kind of Derm specimens. Yeah. A big part of Chris's job is to discover new species of sea stars in this office is where it happens. But at first glance, you wouldn't really know it Chris's office was like would you describe it Marshall? Kind of cluttered like, you know, like in nutty, professor way. Cluttered with these stars sea stars all over the place. Go ahead. It's an office full of visual interest. There is a lot to photograph like tables full of plastic boxes Baggies in just imagine that if instead of being into whatever you were into your room gets messing, you just had a bunch of c star specimens every. My favorite part of his office was actually the star toys that he had collected from all over the world. So he kind of did have that like bedroom bureau situation going on. Here's a lot to see star toys. Kris told us that the reason he studied see stars actually had a lot to do with toys often hearkens back to my love of Batman, action figures and other types of things because I mean, what is what does the great thing about batmans as you get to see the same character. But they always have different accents. There's subzero Batman or there's stealth Batman or aqua back man or whatever crissy's see stars in the same way. As those action figures, they all have their own special powers. They're see stars that are more muscle attack see star and there's mud digging see stars. And then there's deep sea stars which hold their arms up in the water to feed on things, but they all have different. Tool kit and of Lucia Mary toolkit. So just like awkward not Batman has some kind of story behind why he owns an underwater bat suit each see star has a reason for being spiny or bumpy or even slimy. Trying to fight slimy cry. There's a lot of interesting stories that you know, you can learn from these animals and a lot of it's tied into what they look like the classification a lot of the relationship, and also, you know, I clicked action figures, so you know, that is that is a thing like one and collect all the stars. Well, it's a little different because see stars are animals, and I don't need to actually have them. And I sit on a giant collection at work. I mean, it kind of looks like you do. But I believe it or not I actually didn't collect most of these Chris has been on a few big ocean research expeditions. He's even dived in submersibles. But mostly he's the go-to cease star guy for everyone else. Other scientists sent him what they've collected from oceans around the world. And so what you're seeing on my desk the clutter if you will of specimens is actually a all of my data all of my work of scientists in data. I mean, certainly, I don't think of Baggies of sea stars. Yeah. To us and probably Marie condo. It was mess. But Chris could see something that we couldn't some of these are new species. You can't see it. But I'm holding bag with a new species of star that was collected from the Philippines. And so it's like getting a sneak peek at next season hottest new St. stars surprise. They are small in sand-colored. Wouldn't Chris says new? New species of sea star. It doesn't mean that they like just got invented or designed maybe fishermen have been seeing them, and they're part of the ocean for years. But nobody's effort properly studied them when I say, it's a new species, it's one that hasn't been previously known to science. So you don't just pull star out of the ocean and say look new species. Here we go everybody. This one's called Bob. Bob, see star species. It doesn't go like that at all. There's actually just a lot of paperwork involved. So you basically do the paperwork equivalent of that. I will take measurements. I will photo document than right technical description. And then eventually this will become part of a paper that I'll publish on new C start species that Bieber will be published in a scientific journal for other scientists to read and that means Chris gets the honor of discovering and naming the new C star. So that's one of those if you will superpowers that scientists like me have is that when we publish papers about new species. We also are the ones who give them the names. So he's basically a sea star action hero. Yeah. And Chris had plenty to show us outside of his office as well when we were done Gok, ING and photographing. He took us out to the main collection. We passed by rows and rows of huge steel cabinets. Chris stopped us in front of row four where there was a small table with a poster board covered with black and white photos of ship called the albatross. The Elbe trust was operated by the US fish commission it operated between eighteen eighty two to nineteen twenty one. And this was a ship that essentially was exploring the marine habitats. All around the Pacific that outdraws is how many of the star specimens ended up in the drawers behind the display. It was one of the first boats ever built for marine research went to Honolulu. It went to Japan, they went up to the north Pacific. The albatross had a team of scientists on board. It was their job to collect in document as much marine life as they possibly could. While they were travelling then everything they found. Found was packed up in shipped off to universities, and museums like the Smithsonian a lot of what they collected was brought here and became the core of the research collection that the scientists here work on today. So that means in this very room. We were standing in where the stars from the albatross expeditions of over one hundred years ago. But for example, we can look at some of the. Chris lettuce back into the cases and started opening up the drawers all of these drawers look at how many cease stars. There are it's just like it's like a confetti of tiny see stars fingle about your show, you essentially what's called the type collection many of the specimens collected by the albatross insent here where the first of their kind that had been discovered and described they said the standard for every other member of their species. And so this is where we keep those. These are kept for the entire history of science keeping them in one public place makes it possible for other scientists to come and study them and for us to see them to for example. I'm showing. Crispell the big plastic bag inventory. Inside was a bumpy Brown cease star long. We start called pies Astor Gigante s and I can see why it's it's huge. It's almost two feet across. But the thing is if you look at most of the species of of pies Astra gigantea today, they're not very big they're about hand sized. But they're not really large turns out the scientist named this very see star. We were looking at had found a giant. It'd be like aliens landed on earth, and they collected a human that was seven foot four like shack, and they called everyone giant ape things. And then they'd be surprised to find me. Yeah. But that's the way that discovering new species works. Whoever finds it first gets to name it using very fancy Latin words, even if their idea of the whole species is kinda wrong, which brings us to an obvious question. How do you get a species named after you? I think important question. You know, someone like me that's one way to do it. Tumbling gigantic. You could easily be anything from tumble Astor educate hor. The thing is that Latin is a deadline. So no one's creating new words in Latin. Some people are very by the book, and they go by descriptions other people like to name things after people. So it's like a personal style choice. Right. As long as you squeeze some Latin in there. So it's a personal stylist. Choices have any named after yourself. Oh, no. That's actually a big. No, no. It's sort of a professional way of saying that I'm a big egotistical maniac. So it's like not a good look. What you have to do is patiently wait around for a friend to discover new species, and then do that Brenda favor. So who has Chris named sea star species after there's one see star Madagascar calls Neo for Momo? It's named for one of Chris's favourite action heroes named at that is because there's a there's a show called go. Rhino in Japan. It's sort of like the very first Power Ranger show and the girl ranger this called Momo ranger. No mal is Japanese for pink and the girl ranger wears pink has a nice ring to it Neo for Dinah Momo. Think of it. I mean, it is super power really is to give things names, then they have for the rest of humanity, and these creatures have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years in some cases, and you get to come along and name them after your favorite TV character. Or maybe your best friend, or you know, like your favorite podcasts. Exactly. So let's ask our listeners. Now that you know, how the species name sausage gets made. How would you do it? Would you be by the book? Or would you get creative chooser type of animal species and look at their scientific names. See if you can spot the patterns, and then come up with your own ideas for some new species. Thanks. Dr Chris Ma research associate at this Massoni national museum of natural history. The Frankie and the jug Melia you can see marshalls photos from our visit to the Smithsonian including Chris's office on our blog at science podcast for kids dot com. More from our interview with Chris MAs available for patriot. Go to patriarch dot com slash tumble podcast to find out more. I'm Lindy Patterson. And I wrote and produced this show, I'm Marsha, and I made all of the music. Thanks for listening in join us next time for more stories of science discovery. Best robot ever dot com. Three P X.
66. From Extinct Monsters to Deep Time: A History of the Smithsonian Fossil Hall
"Welcome to museum. Archipelago. I'm UNLV. Sner. Museum archipelago guides you through the rocky landscape of museums. Each episode is never longer than fifteen minutes. So let's get started for. So all the res. This is the most visited room in the most visited science museum in the world. The east wing of the Smithsonian's, national museum of natural history in Washington DC. It's the fossil known more simply as the place with the dinosaurs. Today is just a few days after its twenty nineteen grand reopening for the past five years. The room was closed to visitors undergoing a massive renovation. The new gallery is called deep time after the concept of geologic time deep time, reflects our current best understanding of life on earth. The dinosaurs in the hall are presented. As part of the larger story of evolution the gallery is punctured by prominent black pillars marking extinction, events like the end Permian extinction. The end Cretaceous extinction that killed all non avian dinosaurs, and our devastation of life today, it might not seem like much geologic time. But this room has been welcoming visitors for over a hundred years over those years, the dinosaur bones and other fossils have remained at the center as the museum presentation around them has changed dramatically to keep up with our understanding of the world. You can measure the change by the different names of the hall through. Time. What is today, deep time I opened in nineteen eleven with a different name, the hall of extinct, monsters is this great Big Ben diem, classical space with a skylight three stories up. There is a handful of mounted skeletons of dinosaurs and other animals on pedestals mill floor some smaller fossil cases lining, the walls, and it was, it was very reflective of paleontology museums at the time in that tells us for concerned with to exotic me with classifying not forms of life. They were really concerned about say the behavior of those animals or the system. Stay fit into from its opening as the hall of extinct monsters in nineteen eleven to renovations in the nineteen sixties in nineteen eighty s to the new deep time gallery today. This miscellaneous fossil hall has answered life's biggest questions. This story is not just a story of life on this planet, but it's also the story of our changing understanding of how we fit into it today. We're going back in time through the nations of the fossil hall. With exhibitions developer. Ben miller. Hello. My name is Ben Miller. And I'm exhibitions developer at the field museum in Chicago before that I worked for the park commission in Maryland. I was putting together a site. They're called dinosaur park. And it's largely my career this points. Miller writes a blog about the history and artistry of paleontology exhibits in museums called fittingly, extinct, monsters dot net. When the hall of extinct, monsters opened in one thousand nine eleven the building, that is now the national museum of natural history was called the United States, national museum, the hall with various fossil scattered around the room, generally resembled, a classic cabinet of curiosity approach to exhibit design certainly Ziam workers at the time, ticker, late this Massoni, and they were considering exhibition says showrooms for the collections rather than having any particular public educational function. In other words, there was no overarching story. The exhibit wasn't telling the story of life. It was just saying here are some cool fossils. We found. It's always the first thing that is conceived together an exhibition today is what the story is. And at the time this was a showroom for the collections. There wasn't any kind of narrative that was considered. They were certainly adding new specimens, over the course of the first after twentieth century mic pleading the biggest thing in mayor the podcasts, the big dinosaur went in, in the early thirties. But the basic architecture in that space remain, pretty much the same just got more and more crowded diploma Casse remains in the hall to this day forming unimpressive set piece in deep time. The hall of extinct monsters persisted largely unchanged until nineteen sixty two when it was finally renovated, as part of a Smithsonian wide modernization project in the fifties and the early sixties the Smithsonian went through this modernization project, the US national museum in L V other compounds with the Smithsonian they were looking at overhauling all these older. Sibits and bring in more visitors Centric, focus to the spaces, so in the early sixties the dinosaur hall in the adjacent hall. Scott renovated this was a project led primarily, Mike, stand Carris, who was the exhibit designer at the time. She ended handed writing rewriting some of the label's reorganizing the different fossil sewer on display put them into a story that the general public would be able to follow moving through that space in the also changed the status quite a bit, which to be a bit of a downgrade. They took over the all this gorgeous neo-classical designed, the big skylight on the ceiling boarded up all the windows so dingy Brown, while awhile, carpeting yet. That's what the exhibition looked like the most politely to describe the dingy Brown, carpeting, would be or tone when doing the renovation workers realized that the largest mount diploma. Cas was too difficult to disassemble in move. So the new exhibit was designed around it. Still the exhibit was evolving. It was partially still based on taxonomy. So there is a room for reptiles a room for mammals room for fishes, but they were bringing in the story of life over time in the pollution of light overtime. So which organisms came, I, which came later there is a no progress was more in vogue at that time than you would really see in a modern take on history of life. The next set of renovations took place in the nineteen seventies in nineteen eighties. Those renovations known as the history of life, followed the evolutionary progression of fossils, plants and animals through time. So I think that turning point was in nineteen seventy four when they did all of ice, age mammals and the rise of man, and that exhibit was rather than being based on taxonomy or the structure of the collections, it was integrated story that drew on paleontology and anthropology in climatology, and geology, bringing in different curator's indifferent, experts, as well as I exhibit designers tell this cohesive collaborative story about the ice. Ages for like and had dovetailed a been with a reorganization of paleontologist, as a museum of the time into, what's now the department of paleobiology. So they were more interested in the, the life in evolution of these animals. I think everyone knew the time that, that was going to be the future that is sort of integrative approach telling a story about a particular point in time or bring together figuring narrative was going to be what exhibitions we're going to be in the future. That was sort of what drove the renovations throughout the whole east wing for the rest of the century and continued onto the spaces where the dinosaurs were around them eventually finished in nineteen Ninety-one with the agencies gallery and it wasn't always easy. There were some points of tension between the old guard. Curator is in the new professionalism and greater voices of authority in the project at the expeditious are always having, but ultimately people were seeing each exhibits is something existed more for the public rather than being a showroom for the collections. It's also the version of the exhibit that. Miller remembers visiting as a youngster growing up in the DC area. Now, sure, what I started going probably around nineteen ninety this was probably in the first dinosaur exhibit. I went to. So it was just a place to see dinosaurs. Didn't really have a point of comparison and got to know all those specimens, very well going to see them year after year after year. But I think was always very clear is that space was at the mercy of its history in that this has been a series of partial renovations over the course of decades decades it was very difficult to navigate. There was some type or doors, there were a lot of false walls. Boxing people in leading to dead ends in cul de sacs, and that was just the result of continuing to add new things and a new partial renovations to us face was really built for that the gallery was restricted in part by the story it was telling guiding visitors through time in a maze. Like fashion, making it difficult from a visitor flow perspective to go backwards. This was also the version of the gallery that Miller. Studied when later he worked as an intern at the Smithsonian. Right. I was I was working with the Elliott biology department and later with the education of our bents, and one of the things I was doing was vista research interviews with visitors air about how they understood history of life on earth. How they conceived of the great expanses of time, what they thought about the presentation of evolution the gallery in that sort of thing. I hope that, that little contribution. I made was was helpful in eventually conceiving, the hall this series of renovations from the nineteen seventies nineteen eighties lasted all the way to twenty fourteen when the hall was closed for the renovations that ultimately became deep time. What makes keep time so exciting was that it was by far the most complete renovation since the hall opened in nineteen eleven and that meant the possibility to completely we think fundamental assumptions about the way the story of life on earth was presented that. Meant stripping the entire gallery of the earth, tone, carpet, and clearing away the false walls, and cul de sacs that made the renovations in the nineteen eighty s so claustrophobic. So they had this opportunity to pay everything out and start over from the beginning, which is I'm very jealous of professional usually you're just building on decades and decades of what already exists in sort trying to fake news story in, but they were able to really start from from square one. What do we want people to think about when they think about it history of life on earth? And what they landed on was really wanted to bring the human story into that the show that we as people today were part of the pollution of life or not separate from it, and everything we see in the world today is something that has a story has roots in the in the long history. Indeed time as the exhibit is called the gallery does a good job of presenting amp genyk climate change against the backdrop of previous much slower chain. Ages the people who made the exhibit have made it hard sa-. Visit the museum without contemplating the climate crisis and our role in creating it project manager for deep time. Trevan stars says that while people come for the dinosaurs. They're going to get a lot more than dinosaurs. One of the exhibits, that helps visitors think on a deep timescale is an animated interactive media piece called your body through time. The piece illustrates early instances of characteristics found in our bodies like bilateral symmetry in lungs, and how they evolved in our ancestors, and the presentation of the fossils themselves is dynamic very much a departure from the tax nominal presentation when the room was simply the hall of extinct, monsters, I knew something that was important to the curator's was to show, the skeletons has animals. So they went through the process of desert relating, all mounted skeletons conserving them. Putting the bed together, imposes the show different kinds of behaviour notches eating. Killing each other, as you see a lot of newer rigs events, but they're doing things like sleeping, and guarding eggs. And there's even a mammoth in there. That's using its tusks to clear snow off the grass. So all sorts of really interesting behaviors said, bring new life to these features really show them as you know, living thinking being so Wentz existed. The reimagined exhibit is also ranged in reverse chronological order, visit start among the mammoths and ground sloths of more recent history and move backwards in time through increasingly alien versions of North America until ultimately encountering the earliest life this. We orientation also means visitors enter the gallery in the middle of a human caused massive extinction event already in progress. I think it's a it's a very novel approach to start in the present day and moved back. I think most exhibitions they've started with the origins of life and move forward. And it'll be really interesting to see how folks react to going back in time. Only from that perspective. I think it's very clever because you can put your big impressive ground Slavs in mass don's fronts and really show people, some really cool. Whereas if you start with your dreams of life, you're starting a room full of no really traumatic lights in rocks and hell scenes of what the earth look like then, and you're kind of hiding what the big show is gonna be your skeletons of dinosaurs, and so forth. So it'll be it'll be interesting to see how people respond to that. You can read Ben millers excellent paleontology exhibit design blog at extinct, monsters dot net. His latest post is an in-depth review of deep time, which I highly recommend reading before you. Visit the gallery deep time is now open to the public and if history is any guide, it will be for a while. Still don't hesitate to visit. As soon as you can. I play the very small role in the evolution of fossil hall. I was a member of the interactive media team prototyping exhibit, interactivity and building and coordinating. Some of the software, you'll see at the time in the latest episode of club archipelago I take you back in time to my first visit to the museum in twenty nine how I started working on the new gallery in twenty fourteen and what it was like to be in the empty room, while it was being renovated join club archipelago to get access to this episode and all club archipelago bonus episodes. Join today at patriot dot com slash museum archipelago, and you'll also get access to logo stickers and pins mailed straight to your door. This has been museum archipelago. You'll find a full transcript of this episode belong with show notes at museum, archipelago dot com. If this is your first show, don't forget to subscribe for free in your favorite podcasts player. Thanks for listening and next time. Bring a friend.
Interviews Week Bug Scientist Christine Johnson Morning (7-3-2020)
"Good morning it's time for choppers, your morning and night tooth brushing show. It's interviews and today. We haven't interview where a French Jasmine went to talk to somebody. WHO's an expert on all things buggy. Jasmine takeaway. Start, brushing on the top of your mouth on one side, and make sure to brush the inside, outside and chewing side of each two. Three. Why? Brand. Dr Christine. Johnson works at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City where she takes care of their collection of insects and invertebrates. Shows kind of a bug expert, so we asked her your questions about bugs, while there are definitely a lot of bugs that do really cool stuff so switzer. You're brushing to the other side of the top of your mouth. And brush the molars in the way back to. Okay so you study insects and invertebrates, what is an invertebrate invertebrate means that an animal doesn't have backbone that brings me to a question from a kid named Mica and he asked do bugs have owns? No bugs do not have bones or insects do not have bones. Instead of having bones I haven't exo skeleton. We're a skeleton that's on the outside of the body, and it's tough and strong, and it holds all the organs inside the insect body together. But you're brushing to the bottom of your mouth and keep rushing. Okay so. This question comes from emory and she asked. Do Caterpillars have teeth? No caterpillars don't have teeth. They have instead sort of a mouth part like scissors. Take a little piece of the leaf Hunnam like scissors. CHUMP IT UP. Switch to the other side of the bottom of your mouth and brush those front teeth to. this question comes from Calvin. And he asked do any bugs jump really high or do a flip. There are lots of insects. Jump for example. Fleas jump pretty far pretty fast, but there's also an an to trap jaw, and that has these really powerful mandible than when they snapped their manuals together. They kind of flips them up in the air, and they can escape predators by flipping themselves up into the air. Jumpers today, but come back tonight for more answers from Dr Christine Johnson about bugs. Until then Dr Johnson. Send US off three to one. Chompers production of Gimblett media.
Ep. 274 - Hollow Trees = Habitat
"Hello, everyone and welcome to the indefens-, plants podcast the official podcast of in defense. PLANTS DOT COM. What's up? This is your host met welcome to the show. How's everyone doing this week today? We're talking about plants as habitat and not just any plants I'm talking about giant trees, specifically ones that are hollow. Now this podcast was inspired by national week which we're coming up on here and for the first time in a long time have been able to time a podcast with something going on in society at the time that it's happening, so this is exciting. Joining us. Today is Dr Andrew Surkov from the Florida Museum of Natural History. You will remember him from a previous episode on crowd Alaria and their mouths and Dr Larry Res An entomologist for the Florida Medical Tamale lab now among other things Dr Surkov is a moth, specialists and Dr Larry. Reeves is a mosquito specialist which is really confusing if you don't hear what we're about to talk about today. This'll podcast was inspired by a few survey ship by both of these scientists that hollow trees seem to offer really interesting habitat for different species of moths, mosquitoes, and I'm going to let them go into detail. Please do not fear. The hollow trees are not a breeding ground for disease carrying mosquitoes. We'll get into that more detail, but it is really cool to think about holidays. Especially in the context of habitat because I don't think dead trees, snags, hollow trees get the credit they deserve now. A lot of trees are highly. You'd actually be very surprised to know just how many in the surrounding landscape are hollowed out, and that's natural. That's something that trees do, and it's not necessarily bad for the tree, although some sort of rats can cause a lot of issues, but But generally the heart rot, the the rotting of the the dead wood on the inside is by that. Don't kill the tree and what's more, all of those nutrients go back into the soil underneath plenty of routes down there the trees can reabsorb some of what they had invested in all of that non photosynthetic tissue, but it also then creates a lot of habitat for different animals of course. Course you can grow thinking about holidays with raccoons in them or bats living in them, and that's really cool to think about because all of those animals are defecating, they're also giving back to the tree, but holidays are also habitat for a lot of other animals, and that's really what the crux of this is going to be about today and before you think that they're a danger to society. Society remember that physically speaking a hollow cylinder is more structurally sound, or at least more sturdy than solid cylinder, so hollow tree actually is better able to withstand the elements than the same tree. If it were completely solid all the way through I'm real excited for you to hear this discussion, but before we get to that, we have a message from the sponsor that made today's episode possible. Everyone defined yourselves looking for new skills these days. Maybe just WANNA learn how to cook or pick up a new language or maybe find out new ways to talk about climate change with people that aren't on board yet. That's why I'm so excited to bring you. The Great Courses Plus I love the great courses, plus because I don't have the time in money to devote to a whole new curriculum with great courses, plus can sit down anytime anywhere and listen to lectures from experts on a variety of topics lately I've been enjoying the course earth at the crossroads understanding the ecology of a changing planet. I know a lot about plants but I don't know a lot about things like the fossil fuel industry, climatology, the atmosphere, et, Cetera and with the great courses, plus it's bring me up to speed to make my arguments for the environment a lot stronger, and this is just one of the thousands of lectures available, covering everything from history to cooking biology business and so. So much more and like I said, all of them are presented by respected professors experts in their field. It's like going back to school, but you get to learn only what truly interest you and you don't have any pressure of homework, tests or grades, and the best part is. You're not going to go into debt doing it and with the great courses plus. PLUS APP. You can literally do this time anywhere like I said so, if you WANNA feed your curiosity and continue to learn, check out the great courses, plus and the best part is is for indefens- plants, listeners, you can get a whole month of access to all of their courses for free. That's an entire month of education for free, but you have to go. Go to the special URL. The great courses plus dot com slash the PD idea p stands for in defense plants. So that's the great courses plus dot com slash ideal P.. Go check it out because not only. Are you going to learn? It's also helping. Keep in defense of plants up and running. That's the great courses plus dot. com slash I, D oh. Alright right, that's enough. Outta me without further ADO. Here's my conversation with Dr Reeves in Dr Sir. I hope you enjoy. All Right Doctors Andrew. Surkov and Larry Reeves. Thank you so much for coming on the PODCAST. How about we start off by telling everyone obliterate about yourselves and what each of you does. Well I'm on Victor. I've been on this podcast before, but I look at the floor of the Museum of Natural History as the next major or Are I? AM, In many things about dogs are apology, but The packers. At a or And I'm Larry Reuse I. Am an entomologist with University of Florida. I got started with Lepidopterists, studying butterflies in the Philippines during my master's at Uf, and from there I went to. I got interested mosquitoes. On mosquitoes and now I work at the Florida Medical Technology lab as a faculty member. The lab is GonNa Valley University of Florida offsite research center that focuses almost entirely on mosquitoes but also a few other, medically important insects arthropods. Excellent. That's really exciting to have you both on, and we've got a lot to talk about today, but all of this really kind of centers around this being national moth week released. That was what got US started talking about this conversation today and you know I'm sorry. We don't have international or National Mosquito Week. You both sound like you've had some core in lepidopterists in work and I think it's really important to paint the picture that moths, of course, but all insects are very important, but we're celebrating this because a lot of boat were both of you. Study can actually function as pollinators correct there. There's really important pollination services both among moths and the mosquito tribe rape. That's right. That's correct. many mov one made while at night. Though when you Molin white flowers that probably means that they're catering to a mall. That's what Ma Bats white while and I think moths and mosquitoes are both kind of Unsung pollinators in part, because they're mostly active visiting flowers at night, but under said it was some of these white flowers, if you go out at night with a headlamp and ground and investigate some of these hours. You will often see Miskitos on nattering from the flowers, and potentially serving as all nighters down here in Vero Beach Dada mangled train, my backyard that bloomed back in January and went out, and it was just covered in mosquitoes, probably the the even more than Mas, probably the dominant insect that was visiting those hours, or was mosquitoes, and then also have some mosquitoes that service on eaters for certain workloads up in the Arctic, and in some cases they are to be exclusive or almost exclusive on honors of some of these orchids. Yeah I really like these conversations because you're pollination for good reason is getting a lot of attention today, and when we think about the services that pollination provides not only just our species, but you know the rest of the biosphere we need plans plants that the foundation and for flowering species pollination is where that all kind of starts the process anew, and it is great that people are getting fired up about bees. Getting fired up about butterflies, but I think both of your. Your study systems are super under appreciated in that context, but I think also carry a a big lion share of the pollination services just like you mentioned happening often at night out of sight out of mind sort of thing, and you know if we really care about insect declined biodiversity plant conservation. These are the sorts of areas. We need to really start pouring interest into because not just about you know saving our own but's. It's about keeping the ecosystem functioning as a whole. And I mean to go back to the mango tree. That I was mentioning I did some a little bit of homework. After the observations that I made on the mango flowers in my backyard, and just to kind of paint the point that you just mentioned it. It's like I found review let cover on a mango pollination by insects. In that review, there is a big table thing. Tongues of insect groups had been observed. Don Don mango trees and nowhere where. Where there moths or or mosquitoes It was almost exclude it was pretty much. Exclusively Diurnal pollinators so I think all of this nation that goes on at night other than the people that are really focused on studying it I I I think it. It kind of is out of our mind, just because we don't see it happening whereas with a butterfly or a, it's really easy to walk through your yard and the see one of those insects visiting flowers. Very true yeah I really really enjoy nowadays at my neighbors probably think I'm very strange, but we go out with headlamps at night to our garden, and we just start poking around just to Kinda. See what that night shift looks like, and it's really cool is under can maybe speak to. This is a lot of moths. At least make it easy on us because they have I. Shine when you get them in a headlamp, you see these little dots of light reflecting back at you, and that's a really great rate of find these organisms doing their thing. especially the Hawk moths there. There's a few species like the like the giant Hawk moth That's got such large is that if you weight when you initially see it, you might mistake for something like a capital should one of the nighthawks out that also have very high shine, but the their incredible is the. Yeah I absolutely love that group and it is a very lucky day at least here in suburbia when I get to see them, but I've done a lot of night hikes in places that are a little bit more wild in I mean. Sometimes they'll buzzy. You're like. Was that a nighthawk? Speaking of nightfall. Gold. The ORCAS the famous. That, the feature, or could see who may have been. Documented to be pollinated by Hawk moths. and. Cleaned the everglades Dr The issues I think people. are coming gold sort. Of course, if you can imagine the Cutolo, twelfth or It's made long so they another station for the nation that found exclusive demob. Along from all the. Law Yeah, it's amazing. I've seen those videos and it's. It's just so beautiful to Kinda. See these evolutionary. Marvel's playing out before your eyes, and of course that took a lot of work in a lot of effort on the part of the researchers to actually be able to observe and document that, but now that we have that I mean just describe it there. It's not even just the single system or you know with a couple players. There's variety out there and. And and again when we think about conserving biodiversity, the night shift, or these sort of unseen or underappreciated organisms, get the short shrift, because for whatever reason it's easier to communicate with things that you know people staying awake during the day and going out and seeing it's easier to kind of play on the sympathies, but a big thing here when it comes to talk about conservation of any organism is habitat and. It's not just about keeping food plants on the landscape or both of these organisms, whether it's mods or mosquitoes need habitat. They need places to rest into shelter. Correct were. Where can you expect in a traditional sort of setting whatever traditional means in this context what else do these organisms need other than food plants to be happy. Well for Ma for example, if you off during the day sometimes you hear them out and you see them. In maybe on a bar of the fee, but most you on see them and realize that fame more than one backyard. We'll have a thousand. Teaches Moss in games? And Where do they go in the bay? one of the things that I did. Ten years, so. When I walk by? Look like. All faiths image and there's an opening where speak my camera or my cell phone. WAS THEY I would think my Cam Cameron follow and take a picture and see what I can find. So. the doll I found under. Of Mark Inside the color both idealized A. Huge huge on the shape of habitat in every part whenever the. Yard and every four is that may or may not the, but in the fourth in the park, the mostly leaving Nathan the policy fucking. On probably every camp. Has a hole in five, and it's the big fan so. Bad about leach known berry lethal. One Bay on for example you're walking sticks made by on the look and on another occasion I found well convivial Mall Five We, come, see, right behind us. which wasn't? frumpy for my taxable somewhere ways would go away from life so. That the documents of the follow team would be affected to them, but what the price? They drove all the same. From there I kind of. mathematically that The follows of the pre while. and Dr Rio's. Have you experienced some of the things with mosquitoes in in hollow trees. As, so let me back up a little bit. Let's keep each mosquito species kind of has very different habits from the next one summer, diurnal or nocturnal, many of them -squitoes that we are bitten by in the day they're going off and resting at night and vice versa. The nocturnal mosquitoes. During the day. So, there are others kind of an assemblage of mosquito species that really liked to use these odd cavities or hollow logs, academies and trees, and if you have a any kind of poetry, though use these as diurnal resting sites, where they spend the daylight hours, and sometimes have aggregations of thousands of these of these, I think. Andrei has taken some incredible pictures showing thousands of mosquitoes all in this one individual tree, and one of the ways that we go about electing mosquitoes is to do is to build these traps kind of mimic these hollows in trees. We make a kind of a cylinder allot like kind of like a black trash. In we make these cylinders lay them on their sides in the woods and When we come back to them about twenty four hours later. They're often build with mosquitoes Some of the work that I have done hoaxes on blood bed, mosquitoes kind of drastic ark style, grunting mosquitoes that have taken a blood meal, and then extracting the blood meal age identify what animal they bet on, and so we can catch tons and tons of Mosquitos, using like carbon dioxide, as as a as a bait, but of course carbon dioxide is the is one of the compounds of mosquitoes are using to locate their hosts, so if we use a bait like that, we're only getting hosting mosquitoes that don't yet have a blood meal. So when we design these traps that mimic their hollow tree resting sites. We get these these mosquitoes that WANNA be. Like so soccer take on me all day retreat to these hollows in trees, and just kind of rest they while they, while they digest their blood meal, and so it's only the female mosquitoes that are taking the eating from live and so they they need that blood meal in order to produce viable eggs, so in order to produce eggs, the majority mosquito species must take a blood meal, and they use these sites as kind of these quiet humid, arresting sites where they can kind of digest their blood Neilan piece. Sounds When you put it in that context, it's like all the vampire movies saga, but still I mean this is an ecological process that is occurring has been occurring, but before we started this, we wanted to point out or make sure to point out that a majority of the mosquitoes that you're interacting with are really not biting us or danger to humans correct. Yeah, that's correct, so so there are about thirty five hundred mosquito species in the world. We've got eighty eighty almost ninety urine Florida and each each individual mosquito species is unique from the next We have some that are only feeding from frogs. Some that on frogs lizards some that feed only on birds. It's only above a smaller proportion of mosquitoes that are out there that are going to be brim humans and so. So at least with his hollow logs, most of this species that we're seeing in those logs are not the mosquitoes, the cause many problems for US misgivings also barium in their kind of choices of resting sites, and a lot of the human biting mosquitos like eighty s Agip die eighties. Pick this some of the really problematic species here in Florida They're not resting. Holidays are going down into the undergrowth and. Just kind of anywhere humid the big fine, but they. They don't seem to really visit. These darker tree hollows very much. That's good to know before anyone gets panicked and starts going out and cutting hollow trees. That would not be an effective way to reviews. -squitoes in your yard. Really want to reduce the mosquitos in your yard. The best thing to do is to eliminate their larval habitats so any standing water near yard If you're really looking for a way to reduce mosquitoes, go through your yard. Look for any standing water like any basis of a plant that are holding water. Those are places where Mosquitos and you can reduce reduce their numbers new yard by dumping those out good to know. Thanks for the little PSA, there. We needed to hear that. So as Dr Surkov mentioned you know you don't see how the trees as much or at least as frequently in sort of urban suburban areas where people live. But they're much more prevalent in probably far more common than most of us even realize in the wild, and it's really important, and I'm going to say this is sort of like a rhetorical question. Did both of you know that hollow trees? A hollow cylinder technically is far more structurally sound on physics level than a solid cylinder I do not know that yet by Lucan because I ever follow in my backyard and. I decided that the gave. Every no, you frequently trifle care you into cotton down. You'RE A. Follow maybe should come down. Again by looking for and suddenly, if the true and you know that from an Apple Pie. Metal fight. EPSOM the five that they feel some the video while our own bone Bloomberg's armful of the follow by the way. Yeah, and so again here we have a situation where we have structural habitat something that's very simple to provide as long as you keep trees on the landscape, and I see it all the time I walk around my neighborhood at night, or in the evenings, and you can see where trees were hollow, and people have filled them with either concrete or foam or something. It's like they they. They haven't quite figured out that if they maybe want to keep the tree, it's probably best just to let that go. And plus the rotting in and of itself returned some of those nutrients that were locked up in the hardwood, and it's it's IT'S A. A natural process in the life of a tree and I would bet that a lot of the big trees you go out into the woods and see all these ones that people get really excited about Many of them are hollow to just had a guest on talk about ancient trees, and they were saying it's really hard to estimate because every time they go in with a core They just meet a spot that goes, and it goes right into this hollow chamber within there. So this is a really important habitat, just in terms of structure alone in my hat's off to you Andrea for sticking your hand your head or your camera. into these areas I grew up with. A raccoon family and one of the hollow trees in my neighborhood and. Want WanNa do that with angry Mama in there. Yes I guess maybe have some of the golf was. Afraid from a wooden the. I. Thou-. What's the about the mile from there? There was a vital. Several. Other than I. Know counter any particular dangers. One. Fella my head Initially I was the EPA. Why though cameras? Lab and then we'll give you fifty. Feature. Inside and boom keenum. There a cell phone with a flat live. In. The follow. Your, no yeah, and it's pretty effective. Anti Predatory Defense there for the stick insects, but in thinking about both of your study systems I mean I don't think of either mosquitoes, or as being necessarily gregarious organisms by nature. I mean you'll see them in clumps, but I think to me it just seems more of like happenstance where they're living in in in the the resources. They're utilizing but. But both of you just outlined or or described a situation where you've seen mass congregations of single species in these tree hollows, and that's really really curious how that would come about i. mean you think of all the places these organisms could go, but yet they find these spots and a Lotta Times. It's often species specific aggregations to correct any insights as to how or why. Am that why I got banking. In that. When I covered the normally I own twelve mall inside. Follow of they all the same. Problem busy of finding twelve mall by the all of the. But probably of them being all, thank each is. Kinda mention the low. By. chump Then about the thousand the seizure of Moss and then even. So immediately hypothesize that made the decision. Davis and we know of course the under the April you go through the monarch in the most famous one and the last famous, but very ill allegations assure in public life with Alex of. About five. One clean but life. And that has been Sophie Memphis, fifty well Bob. The oldest fishes share some hormone that is they are all Kennedy defendant. Helped prophesized that Sunday night. That is involved the resolve them multiplying their. Signaled so the federal! The president case one of them and leave asking them alone and in this case. Moss love. The member of food on the knee they. Had the boat and the. Clear whether we knew any other examples of mom funded by that, so I did continue to investigate definitely at some point. Some. Of. Over four hundred mark in who of Bait, all huge saw them read all in some of camel. And that's where you saw the The mosquitoes as well right, Andre Yeah, and in the same. Way Back near, I found all on one occasion. gate of mosquitoes. They hear the same pieces I live. Author laid on whether they are. Was So when you and I went out to that to that tree, I think it was early spring or late winter, so there weren't too many mosquitoes, but the one we pulled out two species innocuous, Audrey mackey lattice and Hewlett's radicals, so I expect that the mosquitoes that you're seeing were primarily anopheles dramatic. And with with that mosquito I've heard anecdotally that they've. aggregations just like you described, but I've never seen anything in the literature about these large hundreds of anopheles mosquitoes. It's really we don't know enough about it and I do suspect that something is going on where these congregations. Something is attractive to that species auguring them in, and I'm not sure that it's simply that the arresting sight of kind of the most ideal in the in the area, so they all go there. It wouldn't surprise me at all. If there's some stimulus produced by thumbs that are beginning to form that agregation that attract more in, but we just don't know very much about it at all. So in the mall, usually and the most people. Come to the curve, the from chemical signal and becomes the on the male confidence because they are. They have the ceremony that allow them shoot him on the chemical signal. Jersey Jersey Ma in vain were shown the. There each's rare both males and females compete in. Thermo. and for. Example. Easier mouth in Alaska we don't know. Get the fact that they also have some chemicals. That they hyun, and then because I observed both males and females there and there's a making the. On whatever the chemical signal. As A. And signal and not the mate. While I mean this is so fascinating for so many different reasons. You know you've got this chemical ecology perspective as to what's queuing these organisms in, and does it suggest that you know different? Kinds of and mosquitoes have a far more complex chemical ecology for communication than we even currently sort of realized in terms of you know just the mating impetus, but then also this idea of safety in numbers I mean we feel it ourselves as a social primate, it good to be in large numbers, because it lessens the chance that you as an individual are going to be picked off, but then you have this whole idea of these trees kind of acting like making the analogy. With coral reefs where you have this big structural component of some sort of physical habitat that provides shelter provides a meeting place you know an area to congregate for a lot of different species and I'm sure you've mentioned stick. INSECTS MOSQUITOES MAS. I'm sure they're not alone. I think it's one of those things where the more people go poking around and looking the more we're gonNA. Find that this is a really major component of sort of the ecosystem health and providing habitat for a lot of different organisms, and then the question beyond that is just what are they doing in their up beyond just resting? Well. You don't broke up with the on gave April and camera phone number, and you can see the numbers of the mall increasing, but as you. For. More and more fighters up where? Rab Emphan and inside Assi Buckling Mop. Get Food and. Fly they bring that and they. are able to go through the whole of they elected May. have been caused without any problem by a single. Line of the scene easily bags and grabbed them. Those ramps being broken and repairs on the innovate by the five zero and of course I mentioned the King Fella my hand that. Very well fans anymo- and they can see. You from those the mosquitoes and often Soviet fighters and Roaches, and whatever else is in five of so if. In there, and I will not be surprised that some other vertebrae. Mammals probably go in and the on the insect. Album. So so, yes, we have to loop at. North Job I'm the MOM fantical multiple. Point of view, but I think we should. Definitely loop at. From system point of view and realized. or every. Like. Bake. Andre Agassi's a quick aside. Have you noticed in some of the spider webs inside of these hollow trees that there are occasionally these tiny flies that cling to the web's I. Don't know what they are, but they they seem like specialists of just hanging out in spider webs, like not not caught by spider. It's like literally be the spider webs, and it'll be like a serving of Christmas Christmas lights where there these. Guys that are just space smaller than mosquitoes spaced out along the along the length of the of line of Spider. spiders line. I haven't looked and the either of multi void them as as. Three, but I know look fine. Yet and keep an eye out, and there's some ause that I've seen doing this to not not in the numbers of these of these flies in particular I think this species was one of those litter Mazari Ridiculous Victoria I I've seen them hanging out in old spider webs on the sides of trees, where they look just like a small, a small piece of leaf that that's stuck on spiderweb. It's just interesting to keep an eye out for. Yeah I love the power of observation of just going out, maybe with a different question mind, but seeing these things in saying like us, there might be something to that, and then you know you see it enough. There could be a pattern there, and I'm thinking now of the flies. You just mentioned of an interview I did with Dr Haydock about pollination and Sarah PG and the mimicry of be stressful ramones to attract klepto parasitic flies I wonder if there might be something there with the spider providing these little flies may be a potential meal as killing whatever and eating whatever gets stuck in the web. Yeah I'd love to know more about this. It's something that's been as interested me, but I've never I never kind of stumbled onto anything that gave me an idea about who what what? These spies were still haven't been able to look any further into it. Hey Algorithm many things made to the of fiction, we know mob that prey on fiber There some months of play the. Fiber facts on them. They're Catholic actually fight there. Oh, no Ma that. Walked now. Getting off Germany table. Some MA in Florida, they. Cover them, my backyard by letting. Them, have over thirty months emerged from. Chase. Mark the gold off. The police walked and the places that. Caterpillars will. Young or Walk On so many many things that we maintain convert about. Even here in the United States match. Up. Yeah Yeah and again just screaming for people to get out there. Make these observations. You don't even need to be necessarily in a professional capacity. All you need is a camera and just some good note taking, and then you know connecting with people such as yourself saying hey, I saw this. Is there anything to it? You know maybe six out of ten times. There isn't something to it, but those four remaining. Remaining Times could be really significant. Ecological observations in his doctor pointed out you know, here is a whole ecosystem within the trunk of a hollow tree, and when you multiply the amount of trees out there the amount that's hollow vastly increases the amount of you know area physical area for different ecosystems be playing out, and like we live in this fragile universe, not to get too out there with it, but. You just see these. Predator prey dynamics, these sort of shelter food dynamics, playing out on different scales, and it just sounds more and more like these hollow trees really are kind of little mini universes in and of themselves, because on top of all that I'm glad he mentioned Roaches, and all these other things. There's probably a whole Arthur pride community that never comes out of these hollow logs, never sees the light of day just because that's where they've evolved to live permanently. Yet and you know so I expect also that these policies are are a little bit limited within an ecosystem so I I wonder what role that plays, and if there's if there's much competition or these sites I know that I'm always on the lookout for hollow trees, where I might find mosquitoes, and I know very few of them, so so it wouldn't surprise me if just these habitats are relatively rare with within odd ecosystems. At least you're in. Makes me. Think of like age of for us, too. Because you know a secondary or tertiary growth forest isn't going to be at the age where these trees are really at the rotting stage, or or truly hollowed out, so you wonder what's lost in the context of like deforestation and logging when they go after these large older forest bigger trees that sorta stuff I mean I, realized hollow trees. Don't have the board feet. They're looking for, but they're still destroyed oftentimes in the logging process. Yet giant warriors. I'm talking bump Oh. No, if you go back and look at all. Every one of them has a follow the. Of of the fire maintain. Right so the follow the team around the bar. That's ver- so yeah. Can under shave that equity from in the case of the mosque. Their mouth. But simple thing is some of the members of the genus, actually factually of anymore borrow they leave. With courses and our Medina's. To human capital Steve on some, gift. In those animal bars I didn't find any find feeding by the mob and mentioned inside the follow, but probably the behavior of. Going signed. Fee has evolved over millions of years and became. Vic Faculty or avoid credible. Fascinating and really these observations can only come from. Some familiarity I would see a month ago. That's cool and not know that, but it still again it comes down to the power of observation now. Is this something that you know Dr Reeves mentioned? Finding hollow trees can be difficult, or if they are hollow, even knowing that they are finding an entrance that's usable for study is a totally different question entirely, but it was this something where citizens science could really come into play any listeners that you know, have holiday and just want to make some observations and look I mean. Do you guys really appreciate that sort of stuff in the context of the science that you're doing? Absolutely, and and like you said before. Like most often some of the observations that are made and sent in there something that is well known and common, but but uh small small fraction of them are these entirely new things that can lead to really interesting research so I definitely encourage anyone who is finding anything that lazing of as interesting as search reach out to anyone who is a specialist in that particular field wonderful. I think that over the usage find each. Particularly I naturally by people can submit their of their Beijing Online. Don't have identified. Features! on become pure. Will look at your observations, and if they see something that they find interesting. If will find ways to a professional so Yes, I think that observing nature in your backyard. Is a great. Activity. Grateful folks but they do like that invasion. Are Fine the how many great foods today that we? Can You fool fool? Yeah, wonderful sentiments for everyone listening to hear because I mean both of this what we talked about with both of you started off as observations in a picture here a noticing this over there. And then look at all the questions we just came up within forty minutes of talking to one another, and obviously you're working diligently each and every day on a variety of projects, but just these observations alone created potentially many Grad school projects, many different careers worth of study interests that different scientists from people can kind of get involved in it again. It just comes down to paying attention getting out in nature, even if it's just in an urban lot or or a suburban backyard there so much unknown out there, and it just has to start with someone going Oh. That's cool. Wonder why yeah? So so I'm a huge proponent of natural history observation, both from the scientific perspective, and from an amateur perspective, just for a non scientist to be doing this I feel like it helps them become better connected to the ecology of of their surroundings, then if they are interested enough, then wording that information to scientists in really the real discoveries, and then among scientists to I. Think we're away from kind of these natural history observation based projects, and that we I just think we need to improve natural history observation all around within science and outside of science very true very true I can also tell you the public love. sort of. Commerce I was. The fried by how media. Of. Faith for. About the mosques and Gatien's inside the Polo team comes up and he couldn't be. Dr Typos of. Lord style from go back east of CLUMBER party over feet. And Fourth. In the felt that showed that the general public is quite the input the. Ecological, embiid basin and animals of action. And size dummy have to be applied. In. Fish back away from the say approach on the seed of something that is financial and national food for human missile just like. So I. think that when we learn more about. Around, even if they're not important for us in the Komi Fam-. Feel make the baggage. and some cultures all cultures. Jackson you culture for example really? Apple and I would love the fainting happening in the MIC, thank. You both I. Mean You said it perfectly there is the public is curious. People are curious in science. Really to me is just a disciplined extension of our curiosity about the natural world, and the great thing about being modern humans right now is our luxuries provide us with ample opportunity to kind of explore that curiosity to. Any degree really choose and again just having podcast like this have any semblance of success proof of what you just said there. If they're given the information in a way, that's interesting and compelling. You'd be surprised at what interest people it's not for lack of attention. It's not for lack of caring. It's just for lack of presentation and getting people engaged, and I think that's the bigger hurdle to get over. Here is just finding different ways to get people engaged, and you said it yourself with naturalist is a great way to do it, and just you know sharing these stories, encouraging people to go out and look and really kind of. Celebrating the fact that you can have these interactions with the public, both scientists, the non-scientists together. Yet by any. Lags of called on the. Ask POB and it was standing room only so many people incidentally. Presented to talk factory. You come out of their thinking. Wow, that so much more. People than I thought you. Know first of all, they're filthy. People in Bay Youth. Seafood Right, correct me if I'm wrong in Florida and only a few of them by humor, the other facets on some worm that you. Both them home very will come out on the occasion and there will. A shine, you'll be destined lag waiting for the therm. Come up and speak out so The bookkeeper can take a blog news from birth. The this fast. Thought so I could see. Who came for that fall, they eaten. Lobbing installed the subject. Of Me if I come from many many. Just kind of to evidence. The importance of natural history observations that the mosquito that feeds from these worms is is a great illustrate that so there is this mosquito here in Florida Urania. Farina like under said it's Hubbard in the is a brown mosquito, but it's covered in these like iridescent patches of Awsat buyer blue scales, so we had been trying to figure out what animals that mosquito fed on for a long time. It was really frustrating. We would go out and we could collect a bunch of these blood. Off Reina, but when we were so, the way we identified is one meals as we extract the and we do have UCR using vertebrate specific primers to amplify the vertebrate DNA barcodes so anytime. We would do that with mosquitoes. These is ers would bail and it was. It was really frustrating. We were kind of pulling our hair out trying to figure out what was going wrong and why why? We couldn't get an identification on his meals. So eventually I got really frustrated in the lab and I figured I would just go out and hang out with these mosquitoes at night and try to figure out what they were doing and what they were feeding from and down over by a really wonderful place river sticks south of Gainesville I encourage anyone in the Gainesville area, listening to go check the spot out if they're interested in seeing by adversity, we went out to that site and just hung out with these mosquitoes, and we found within congregations of them wondered what. What they were doing and by looking really close and taking steps, we could see that they were standing around kind of probing the MoD like spoon bills, and feeding from these from these worms, and so the whole reason that we can identify these hosts in the lab is because we were targeting vertebrate DNA when in fact they were feeding on analysts and turned out to be the first. The first known mosquito species to special is on a non vertebrate host. So so it was. It was really exciting, found that yeah! That's wild congratulations I mean. That's amazing it just again. Observation and just getting out and appreciating nature. You never know what's going to happen, but. This this whole tale here is really cool, because yeah, this is a plant focus podcast, but at the same time I'm an ecologist. I celebrate the fact that nature depends on all components of it working in operating in healthy ways, and how defined that can change from system to system, but this is such a good proof that even. Something as what would be a seemingly innocuous as a hollow log can provide habitat an into you know be the foundation of an entire ecosystem that most people don't even know exist, and we still have so much to learn about so thank you both for bringing this to my attention. If for talking to this talking to us about this today, this is really fascinating stuff, and if people want to keep their finger on, the pulse may be contact you with some of their observations. I'm sure you know this is not. Relegated to Florida? This probably happens a lot of other places. Where do you recommend people? Go to find out more about both of your work. I thought I wrote the the Museum of Natural Heat Sedan the or Florida Newseum of Mitchell. Fifty has rep site in the vehicle late to go and learn about George that down there. And other goods for. The for the Malaysian Department website Feature Teachers where you can find a lot laudable for mating of the unseen. Wonderful yet, so I'm faculty with the University of Florida Tamales Department of of course base down here, the Florida medical and small lab in addition to their websites active on social media, especially instagram where you can find me at bio-diverse Larry Nice. Very cool well I. Thank you both for talking with us today. This is really fascinating stuff again. Championing Natural History, get out there. Get exploring, but. Yet keep us posted. This is really cool work in a I can't wait to see what's over the horizon. Yeah. All right you both have A. Great Week in stay healthy out there. That! You do thanks. All right that's it for this episode. Pretty incredible stuff It definitely makes me look at trees in a whole different light, especially, if you're walking through a forest, just thinking about all of the available habitat that we don't readily recognized as habitat or have a hard time seeing for not looking in you know holes in trees which I. Don't find myself doing very often. School think about what could be in there. In how many different observations people can make around the country around the world? Really I mean there's a really untapped habitat source there that I think is desperately calling out for more surface I, think both of these scientists for taking time to talk with us this week. And if you check the show notes over at in defense, plants dot com slash podcast links to all of their relevant information. Make sure you're doing that with every episode to. That's where you can get all of the information from the amazing people that I get to talk with each every week. Please consider supporting this podcast, either by going and checking out the great courses, plus or becoming a Patriot over at Patriot, dot com slash indefensible plants. I do have one a shoutout to give to the latest producer on this podcast. A big shoutout producer Judy Judy went over to Patriot. Dot Com slash in defense plants and supported the show at the producer credit level. Level, so not only is judy. Getting this wonderful resume building title. She's also getting access to stickers and multiple mini. Bonus episodes egion every month, so if you WANNA be like judy and helped podcasts out. Go consider supporting us over at Patriotair Dot, com slash inoffensive plants. Thanks, Judy. It really helps make this podcast possible in keeps it free each and every week. Otherwise, hit the subscribe button and keep checking back in 'cause always great things over the horizon, but this is it for this week until next time. This is your host Matt signing out audio everyone.
Bugs Week Morning Interview (7-24-2020)
"Good morning it's time for choppers. Your morning and night tooth brushing show today. Our friend Jasmine is here with an interview Jasmine. Take it away. Thanks. Rushing on the top of your mouth on one side, and make sure brush the inside, outside and chewing side of each to. Three. It's bug's week, so we went to talk to someone who is an expert on all things buggy well. There are definitely a lot of bugs that do really cool stuff. Dr. Christine Johnson works at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City where she takes care of their collection of insects and invertebrates. Is Kind of a bug expert, so we asked her your questions about bugs. But first Switzer brushing to the other side of the top of your mouth. And Brush Molars in the way back to. Okay so you study insects and invertebrates? What is an invertebrate invertebrate means that an animal doesn't have a backbone that brings me to a question from a kid named Mica and he asked do bugs have bones? Bugs, do not have bones or insects do not have bones. Instead of having bones, they have an exoskeleton where a skeleton that's on the outside the body and it's tough and strong, and it holds all the the organs inside the insect body together. But you're brushing to the bottom of your mouth and keep rushing. Okay so this question comes from emory and she asked. Do Caterpillars have teeth? No caterpillars don't have teeth. They have instead sort of a mouth part like scissors, and they take a little piece of the leaf hud him like scissors, and they sort of chop it up. Switch to the other side of the bottom of your mouth and brush those front teeth to. This question comes from Calvin and he asked do. Any bugs jump really high or do a flip. There are lots of insects that jump for example. Fleas jump pretty far and pretty fast, but there's also an aunt trap jaw, and that has these really powerful mandible than when they snapped their mandible together. They kind of flips them up in the air, and they can escape predators by flipping themselves up into the air. Come back tonight for more answers from Dr Christine Johnson about bugs. Until ben Dr. Johnson send us all three. Chompers is a production of Gimblett media.
Bugs Week Morning Interview (8-16-2019)
"Chompers is produced by gimblett and supported by good night's the number one night time underwear good morning. It's time for choppers your morning and they tooth brushing show today our friend jasmine is here with an interview jasmine. Take it away. Thanks start brushing on the top of your mouth on one side and make sure to brush the inside outside and chewing side of each to three yeah. It's bugs week so we went to talk to someone who is an expert on all things buggy well. There are definitely a lot a lot of bugs that do really cool stuff. Dr christine johnson works at the american museum of natural history in new york city where she takes care of their collection of insects and invertebrates. She's kind of a bug expert so we asked her your questions about bugs but first switzer brushing into the other side of the top of your mouth and brush the molars in the way back to okay so you study insects and invertebrates what is an invertebrate invertebrate means that an animal doesn't have a backbone that brings me to a question from kim mica and he asked <hes> do bugs have bones. No bugs do not have bones or insects do not have bones. Instead of having bones haven't exo skeleton. We're a skeleton that's on the outside of the body and it's tough and strong and it holds all the organs inside the insect body together it was but you're brushing to the bottom of your mouth and keep rushing okay so this question comes from emory and she asked do caterpillars have teeth. I know caterpillars don't have teeth. They have instead sort of a mouth part like scissors they take a little piece of the leaf hunnam like scissors and they sort of chop it up switch to the other side of the bottom of your mouth and brush those front teeth to this question comes from calvin and he asked do any bugs jump really high or do a flip and there are lots of insects the jump for example fleas jump pretty far in pretty fast but there's also an an to trap jaw and that has these really powerful man doubles than when they snapped their manuals together they it kind of flips them up in the air and they can escape predators by flipping themselves up into the air chompers today but come back tonight for more answers from dr christine johnson about bugs until ben dr johnson send us aw three chompers is a production of gimblett media choppers is brought to you by good nights the number one night time underwear good night's delivers protection where children needed the most grownups one of the best things about being a kid is exploring the world around you climbing trees playing in dirt being worry free is the way to be but one thing that can shake your little explorer spirit as nighttime wetting even though it's totally normal waking up wet can put a damper on the day good night's believes that nighttime wedding shouldn't get in the way of childhood so grownups. Keep your kids dry and worry free with good night's nighttime underwear.
T-Rex at the Smithsonian
"Now for decades, one of the world's great museums has felt just a little inadequate, the Smithsonian in Washington DC didn't have in its collection. A tyrannosaurus Rex the most famous dinosaur all known literally as the tyrant lizard, king. Well, now it has after quite a journey his North America. Correspondent James Glen die. In the newly renovated Donoso hole at the Smithsonian national museum of natural history on Washington DC's famous mall. One sixty six million year old spaceman reigns. Supreme t Rick skeleton is dramatically poised to take the head of a hapless triceratops. This particular animal is found in nineteen eighty eight and it was found by Montana rancher was on a picnic with her family, and she saw just a little bit of the editor arm-bone sticking out. It was a bone of the T Rex that never been found before. That's cooked Johnson, the museum's director and chatting Knicks to the skeletons teeth H, one is about the size of a banana. Can you be a full blown top of the line American natural history museum without a T Rex? Well, that is something I think is not possible. When I joined this museum as director, we didn't have it to your accent. I wasn't the first person to the point that out, but it was something that I didn't want to open this exhibit that having to your ex here because this is the national museum. Mm, t Rex was first discovered early last century. It was once native to North America and vindicates now, the Smithsonian has been desperate to get its hands on one there's two ways to get a T Rex can buy one or you can find one. That's the bottom line, which I did the museum. Well, we spent a fair amount of money looking for one because actually cheaper to find them into by them. Find them into game out. It's not it's not inexpensive. But it'd be better to find your own. And we looked and looked looked, and we found pieces and parts. But when you looking for something as rare as a complete T Rex chances, you actually will find a relatively small, but buying one of the city, also substantially complete T, Rex's is complicated to sue a beautifully preserved lodge. Reynoso is still known by museum staff is the one that got away at an auction that exceeded all expectations in New York in nineteen Ninety-seven bidding started at half a million US dollars. The hammer dropped at seven point six million with commission on top Chicago's field. Museum was the. Lineup and his house, sue since but many paleontologists believe they have been the losers. Is it all Sam kneels felt that'll drastic pox fault? What happened that generally was because if you think about the discovery of shoe happened before Jurassic perk and the sale of sue happened after Jurassic Park, and that was an amazingly, beautiful fossil the skull was in one piece, and it was an exquisite thing when it went to auction. There were many many museums had dreams. What's your personal views about benefit these things to be found on public lands? They along to the nation. Well, United States is the only nation in the world that has dinosaurs, and where it is legal to sell dinosaurs. He other big Dennis are producing nations. And there's like six or seven of them own the dinosaurs the nations in the United States on private land. If there's a dinosaur to private land owner owns Dennis with the increase in the value of dinosaurs. Launched by the su- sale act. Actually has made it more difficult for professional intelligence museums to access private lands because dinosaurs are now money. They didn't used to be money. So this sunny changed tack slightly, and found a third way of getting a T Rex by working with another arm of the federal government, which already funds, most of the museum's costs and the land on, which this dinosaur was found is US army corps of engineers, because it's a reservoir managed by the army corps of the people do all the engineering and they had to Rex's from their property. Both of them were out there with the Rockies Montana. So we didn't want to take Montana's only directs the once they had to both the museum of the Rockies and the US army corps of engineers green benefit to promoting Montana, and the army corps of engineers in Washington DC, the specimen has now been dumped. The nation's t Rex Matthew Khurana is the museum's curator of Donna, Soria. It's important to us. I think that we call it the nation's T-rex because we really. We want people to feel like its they're controversial because there are the big ones, you know what, what what's going to think about that? One of the other new you can play t Rex's around. You know, our T Rex is not a T Rex of sutra Nakata's. It is. But, but our T Rex is not a T Rex of superlatives. It's not the oldest or the biggest or the youngest or the longest, but it has unique position of being everybody's T-rex thanks to the museum's -cation and the number of American tourists, we make a pilgrimage to Washington DC cook, Johnson believes the specimen could ultimately become the most visited horrendous Soros Rick's in the world. I've had T-rex described as a gateway drug. Can you explain that for kids? I actually think I coined that phrase. I think I did of kids really caught on. It's it really the ideas that kids love dinosaurs at a very early age. It gets them excited to go to Zia. Gms gets the meeting, scientists it gets them thinking about how fossils are found right now. We're hiring. The next generation of scientists, and many of the paleontologist, tell me look, I it was drastic parked to did it for me when I was a kid. So I'm seeing that generation come through now and there are a lot of them and every year we're finding something like fifty or sixty new species of dinosaurs, unknown to science, I opened a dentist or exhibit nineteen ninety-five and since then the number of known dinosaurs globally has more than doubled. So there's still lots of amazing stuff out there. Get out in the backyard and get digging. That was our North America. Correspondent James Glenda reporting.
Bugs Week Night Interview (7-24-2020)
"Welcome back. It's time for Chompers your morning and night tooth brushing show tonight. Our friend Jasmine is here with a special interview Jasmine. Let's go. Thanks. Start brushing in the top of your mouth on one side and brush the inside, outside and chewing side of each two. Three. Two. One. It's bugs week, so we're talking to Dr Christine. Johnson, who works at the American Museum of Natural History? And she knows a lot about thousands of different kinds of insects and arachnids insects for such small organisms. They're really incredibly powerful. So. We asked Dr Christine some of your bug questions, but I switch. You're brushing to the other side of the top of your mouth. And brush the molars in the way back. Okay so this question is from name William and he asked How far do grasshoppers jump? That's a great question and grasshopper's can actually jump pretty far for their body size. So they jumped between thirty inches and thirty eight inches deep in a dozen depend on the size of whether it's a small grasshopper. Grasshopper can jump that far, and that would be like a human jumping five stories up. Or like in three jumps a football field. Switched to the bottom of your mouth, pick aside and keep brushing. This next question comes from a kid named Kahlani and she asked. How do bees make honey? Bees flyer to flowers they lap up nectar with their tongue. When they come back to the nest, they spit up the nectar, and they share it with another be in in the nest, who then choose it? Choose it and choose it for a bit, and then that be passes that. Shoot up to another be and through that process eventually they put it into a comb in their honeycomb, and then eventually you have. Switch to the other side of the bottom of your mouth. But don't brush too hard. So. Do you have any advice for kids that think bugs are really cool and want to learn more about bugs. I think one of the most important things to know. Is that insects really really really important for environment? They serve as food for birds. They break down. things that pass away. A lot of people are often afraid of insects, but most insects are really beneficial on a lot of ways. That's it for chompers tonight. Special thanks to Dr Christine Johnson Aubrey Miller and the American Museum of Natural History until next time three. Chompers is a production of Gimblett media.
Acorn Woodpeckers Fight Long Bloody Territorial Wars
"Scientific American sixty seconds, science I'm. Any SNEAD. What you're hearing is worth. Woodpeckers a species called acorn packers. The birds fight long bloody battles over access to trees where these woodpeckers nest and store their food. You guessed it Acorns, the abilities, giant Ligon grannies, and these are. Basically on storage structures, but the store thousands of ACORNS every fall Sarah's with the Smithsonian national, Museum of Natural History in Bark and dead bars of trees they make individual holes in which the store one garnered a time and Some GRANITZ may have tens of thousands of holes, woodpeckers that hold high quality territory die others come to claim it for themselves. That's when the fighting began so. It's a lot of energy that they were in and that sort of as you how valuable big grants are for them. So they put in a lot of effort in the shark known for this big long term price. Bourbon is colleagues tracked acorn woodpeckers doing these power struggles the researchers observed to twelfth groups of birds sparring for a single territory typically with three or four birds pork lamb. Individual, birds May, fight more than ten hours a day for several days. We don't know that board last that long it's it's really really amazing. You have. You can imagine if you can imagine the. California. There's the big oak tree and you can just hear board calling a because they give very distinct. These WACKO WACKO calls when they're fighting each other. From. You can hear it from far away. There are so many boards calling and when you go closer, you'll see birds. Flying around pretty chaotically, there are birds washing so most. Coalitions will group together every now and then and sprouts spread out their wings on a prominent branch of the tree anshuman basically who they are that they are together but these conflicts often the violence the you see birds with big injuries in see bloodied feathers you can see is style boards with some injuries that are obviously fatal be seen boards, broken wings and also boards far the crown like fighting each other like like I often boards. Have Spears from out. So they can do a lot of damage to each other other woodpeckers flew in from up to three kilometers away just to watch the fighting and to Glean Social Information The studies in Journal current biology. The scientists say these battles reveal a lot about animals social behavior. If you often think of birds is not very intelligent animals, but we are discovering very quickly that we are not the only a busy busybody nosy super curious social animal. And boards are doing that all the time social complexity is something that's a multiple times in the animal kingdom and we are just one of them. Listening for scientific American sixty, seconds science I'm Anne sneed.
Fighting, Philosophy, and the Primal Mind, with Joe Rogan
"Turn your great idea into a reality with squarespace squarespace makes it easier than ever to launch your pass project. Whether you're showcasing your work or selling products of any kind with beautiful templates and the ability to customize just about anything you can easily make a beautiful website yourself. And if you get stuck squarespace spaces twenty four seven award winning customer support is there to help head to squarespace dot com slash start talk for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch use offer code star talk to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website, or domain. From the American Museum of natural history in New York City, and beaming all space, and this is startling were triumphs up alive. Welcome to the hall of the universe on your host, Neal, the grass Tyson your personal astrophysicists and tonight, we're featuring my interview with comedian and mixed. Martial artists commentator, Joe Rogan, explore the science fighting and the primal mind. So let's do this. Got my comedian co hosts this year's a made it says you welcome. Old-timer on the show that oh my gosh. Thank you and welcome. You tweeting at the sheer truth drank great Twitter handle right there. And also joining us is professor and author Jonathan gottschall Jonathan welcome back to the Dell to and your latest book. Professor, I love this professor in the cage. Why men fight and why we like to watch Joe Rogan blurbs your book. That's right. So he says here a fascinating story a great fucking book. Joe Rogan, you have see common. Joe more vocabulary available to him. That's one of his favorite words. So we'll be tapping your perspective and expertise tonight as we explore my interview, and I would not as podcast a few times. And what intrigues me is given all the rest of what he is and his profile. Here's a deep curiosity about the universe. So I asked Joe if any science teachers early on in his life may have helped kindle his Kuzmic curiosity as check it out. I had one science teacher when I was in seventh grade that probably changed my life. Really? Yeah. One science teacher for the better for the better. Yes, we have to say that the vector, correct? You're right. Yeah. He talked about the nature of the size of the universe. And I remember one class. We said if you want your brain to hurt just think about something that has no end think about the idea that you cannot see the end of space. You look above look up into the sky is goes on forever. And you think you can rationalize or even conceptualize forever. But just think about that. And I remember thinking about that so much after that. I was thinking about it years later years years later is because he was an intense guy. Everything we do we're in a room. It's this big that tall that wide. Yeah. There. Is a math come driving to San Diego. That's a distance everything. So much of our lives is contained by measurement. Yes. Yeah. And he in my small little mind at the time, he planted a seed, and that that seed was this concept that we take so often for granted the idea that above you is forever. And that that notion it's above and below is everywhere. And we're in this. I don't have to tell you. This this concept is it's it's so hard for us to wrap our minds around yet so ever-present, and we ignore it, we ignore it. And it's become a big part of my act of head several bits really this base that we that we ignore it. Or we don't even know to recognize it. Maybe it's so overwhelming that we choose to somehow or another put in the back of our mind people concentrate on weird things about life in. There's so many weird things about life. But the weirdest thing by far. Is that we're in space, and it's almost never discussed go through. Yeah. There's nothing around the earth. Above us is a thin layer of gas that protects us from rocks. That periodically slammed the planet and kill everything you finish. It is to earth with the skin of an apple is to the apple. Just to put punctuation on your usage of the word sin continue. I say there's a fireball floating in the sky. It's a million times bigger than earth. If you stare at it, you'll go blind is trying to give you cancer. And if it's not there, you get sad. Like, we're in a dream. Jonathan you teach storytelling as a science. And what do you think of his seventh grade teacher telling him this story about our place in the universe? Why? Why do you think it resonate was it because it was a story in a story form, or because just the facts were so mind blowing my feeling about that is that, you know, hopefully, all hadn't experienced like this for a teacher has sort of cracked US Open like the right of friendly almost violently to the whole wonder magic of a subject area as what happened to Joe there. You know, we had this experience where he saw that science is kind of magical kind of stirs the sole right? Sort of like art does or like, a great, you know, palmed us fills you with that sense of wonder and fills you with a sense of hod humility about your place, you know, in the universe and a good poem or a good other source of art. You can think about it years later just as he thought about the universe is six with you years later well in. His teams he was national taekwondo champion. Yes. And he then transitioned to a career as a stand up comedian, which continues to this day. And then he hosted offerings the TV reality show fear factor. And what was I was on NBC? I think that's where you stick your head inside of worms and stuff. It was like. Ooh. Ee horse penises to really. Yeah. That was the thing. Yeah. So you remember that? Oh, yes. You remember? You see something like that? You don't forget don't forget that. And now, he's hosted one of the top ten podcasts in the world. Go the Joe Rogan experience, and he discusses his experience in MMA fighting for Las Affi overall, physical and mental wellness, and I asked him what stirred him what motivated him to be so intense, and such a diversity of topics such check it out. I think in really started out with martial arts like martial arts is what really started me thinking, it's really really got me into psychology because I was very concerned with while. I was so nervous. And is there a way to combat that is their way to calm myself down before fights is this middle school high school high school? Yeah. I started fighting when I was fifteen and I did that pretty much every day in my life until I was twenty one twenty two and then I started doing standup comedy at twenty one. And I realized that twenty I realized I couldn't do both things. And I realize I did really wanna fight anymore. It's very concerned about brain damage was very concerned about I knew a bunch of people 'specially with kickboxing a bunch of people that were starting to show the effects slurring words and just absent my it's very scary. Very scary stuff. It's a ride you have to know when to get off, and you have to be really cautious about it. And so but martial arts being such a. Dangerous thing and an exciting thing in in in so many different ways, psychologically, physically demanding demands. So much of your discipline is so much of a management issue. Like managing the way my brain worked. I think that's really where I got most of my curiosity from. So it was disciplined structure. Yeah. Your life and some philosophy like book of five rings me to Musashi is still read a lot of ancient samurai work because they dealt with the most stressful thing possible a one on one sword fight with a person. So I felt like his philosophy in particular was a very relevant, and we don't want to certify I content. Yeah. It's pretty tad. It's not you're not behind a ridge line shooting bullets three yards. Yeah. And Masashi killed. I think it was like sixty men in combat and one oh one one on one combat with swords, sometimes he got bored. He didn't use a sortie more to us. An or from a boat. Yeah. He was a maniac. So this is your heroes. I mean, people aren't heroes killed. Well, let kill me was your face after he mentioned his heroes killing people. That's just weird. Yeah. Fixture. He is. Am I interviewing here? Yeah. So Johnson you actually joined cage fighting, Jim. So let me ask you is this from what you've experienced in the culture looking from the outside. And the inside is is fighting like a guy thing is a primal is Evelyn canary. Yes. So all I think that's all of women do fight. They're distinct minority though, still an overwhelmingly male thing, it's a male thing when you come to from comes sports fighting. It's a male thing when it comes to fist fighting in a bar as a male thing when it comes to murdering somebody. It's a male thing when it comes to genocidal warfare. So what's this? I've heard about the the the riddle of the dual. What is that the thrill of the dole is my my question about you know, that's in your book. Yeah. The question we have read about somebody like Alexander Hamilton or the smartest Merican whoever was who got himself killed in really stupid dual over nothing riddle, the dual is why would these really smart guys get themselves. Killed over nothing. And the answer is they weren't really fighting over nothing. They were fighting or something really important. They were fighting over honor, we call respect and back. Then this really had a lot of social currency honored was precious coin bought the best stuff in this thing where demand is this symbol of strengthen Khan and conquest that that's a little creepy to me that we stuck with this evolutionary baggage and Joe Rogan, his heroes are combinations of philosophers and samurai warriors. And he's got some strong feelings about the way the public idolizes celebrities instead of other roles that people have in society. Let's check it out. It's a hijacking of our human rewards system. And that's why we treat actors as if they're anything other than just entertainers. Right. It'd being they're just entertaining. It's fun. You go to the movies. It's great. You know, the guys piloting starship. He shooting at the bad guys. But all it is entertaining, but they get duped by themselves, and they start talking like as if their opinion is something of like extremes significance because of who they are. Because of their stature that they've achieved by pretending to be somebody. It's very strange, really. I mean, there's very few positions in life that are a little less relevant in terms of like the real world. Then someone who's completely faking being someone like you're not doing anything. Roic you're faking it all your everyone knows you're wearing makeup. There's a green screen behind you. It's all bullshit. And yet. People are treating it like it is one of the most important things they've ever seen. Everyone wears suits and ties with little bow ties. And they go to this award show to see who is the best of bullshitting who pretended the most effectively you had me convinced you or ABRAHAM LINCOLN, sir. That was amazing. And that's all it is. I mean, it's very very strange that that is treated as such an important part of our culture, whereas teachers are treated so insignificantly and so flippantly dismissed and the wages. They get in comparison. If you look. Thousands. Yeah, it's crazy. The the impact that a teacher can have on your life that should be one of the most valued and cherished positions in our culture. Jonathan. Do you agree that some hijacking of this primal reward system, your big up on a screen? You are the person who brought home the food, but really or not. But I would I would strongly disagree. Really? Yeah. I think that I think the reward system is responding appropriately the way it was designed to be. So we want to value our teachers. Yeah, highly, but we don't. So is that disconnect purely that teachers are not as good as storytellers as Hollywood there is something catastrophic and something very sad about the way that society undervalues as teachers so what what do you think we could do to give like teacher roles more value? I think we could give them the Lord's wanted paves do award shows just we do. I just created Wyan. Call the t tease and have little trophies can gives I want apples on top. Isn't that kid? Oh, that's cute. I made them you would lie. No that is really cute. So I want each of us to talk about the teacher. We would give a teacher too. Yeah. I probably give it to an English teacher having college. I'm David power who made me wanna be not only English teacher, but intellectual I wanted to be a scholar when I grew up after seeing him in class. That's beautiful. Yeah. It's beautiful. And I gave my t to professor Theresa Davis. Because she always had can't interoffice now is great. But also tra- candy enroll for. Yeah. For like herself bills for the students bells. She like really pushed me as a performer, and maybe really want to actually pursue this as a career, and you can give yours. I didn't have a single teacher in my life. It's a it was an amount them. Multiple teachers bits and pieces some here some there and some and they weren't really teachers. They would people I met in life educators for sure scientists. But they I I was not accountable to them the way a student is accountable to a teacher. So I but nonetheless they had expertise I've value and respective and I'm not done. And I I would make my my by my role models Alicarte staple them together. And the combination of the so that's how. Up next the physics of fighting Gwen stunt talk returns. We hear star talk love squarespace, and you can turn your dream into reality with squarespace squarespace makes it easier than ever to launch your passion project. Whether you're looking to start a new business, showcase your work published content sell products. What ever it is where space is the tool for you. And with beautiful templates created by world-class designers and the ability to customize just about anything with a few clicks, you can easily make a beautiful website yourself, take it from me, I made my website with squares base. And I could not be happier. I guarantee you will feel the same way. That's right. You heard me I said, I guarantee square spaces powerful ecommerce functionality lets you sell anything online and their analytics help you grow your site in real time. It never have to patch. Upgrade anything and they have an award winning twenty four seven customer support team. That will always be there to help you wait a minute. Maybe that's why they call it. Twenty four seven head to squares base dot com slash star talk right now for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch use offer code star talk to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website. Or don't mean that squarespace dot com slash star. Talk offer code star talk. Bringing me space inside head down to earth. You're listening to start talk. From the American dream of natural history right here in New York City, featuring my interview with type Cuando champion and you see commentator Joe Rogan, I asked Joe about the philosophy of the different teaching forms of martial arts. Let's check it out. When you're teaching people martial arts have you establish that sort of relationship between the master and the student people believe all kinds of nonsense. And so there's a lot of people out there. Teaching and demonstrating nonsense like death touches stunning people with. Over. Yeah. There's like three feet, and they believe back from the. Yeah. The spirit energy they sent in. That's most extreme example of it. But Brazilian jujitsu has bypassed that and Brazilian jujitsu is way more open minded, and if you came in, and you're a white bell. But you had an idea, and you said, okay, why don't I just try it this way to the instructor would go. Let me say try that out. Let me see it do it and okay, try then the person you are doing to can you resist? And then they would look at it. That's an impossible exchange. Yes in it would be impossible. You would never do that. You would never say. Why don't I do it this way but test? Yeah. Well, they know how to do it. They're gonna show you how to do it you need to learn the techniques properly, and you listen. And then you say, yes, sir. And that's it. That's the end of it. And you they're going to teach you the technique. But if you have some you never know, you know, what I mean jujitsu is such a broad language, and that I talk about it as a language because I think what martial arts really are is a way people exchange and in very much like a conversation and someone who has a larger vocabulary who understands what they're saying Moore, and who has a broader grasp of the concept as a whole will do better in a conversation than someone who has a limited grasp of the language. Only knows a few words, so it's very similar and jujitsu is a much much broader conversation than any of the other martial arts much more science based like. What what is affected? What is not when it's not affective chocolate aside. Don't keep trying to death touch. It doesn't work. Stands. Perfect. Pretty. After the interview did our. So Jonathan do you agree when he said jujitsu, the most scientific form of martial arts in the sense that it it can it can respond to experimental. I do I absolutely. And I think I would extend it to the major in general. I think Joe would to Nimeiry Jim really is sort of science laugh devoted to the consummate Jimmy. Yeah. Uh-huh. To the constant testing, the constant refinement of these martial arts posses and it works because it's a combat science. Whereas as Joe is suggesting traditional forms, the martial arts closer to combat religions always sort of dogmatic articles of faith that they abide by. So if you just walk in there as office, people know, not to kill you kill you, absolutely Mori until the new guy the big I and killing the little guy, it's actually fairly civilized environment. And the rules are pretty clear there's rules and codes of behavior. I locked in a novice. Let's take it easy on her because she's known anything at absolute. And then I would trick you. Comedy. What have you walk into a novice like Monday night? Open mic. Whatever. Right. I mean, you kind of have to there's. Yeah. If you end up stage already an expert like people could get scared and be like, oh, I need to write this perfectly before even get on stage. But you don't know if it's good or non till you get on stage and actually put in front of audience. So you do need to like. Yeah. So when I think of fighting this all about physics and force and leverage and and mechanical advantage. And so I asked Joe Rogan how much he thinks about physics during the fight while he's fighting just checking out. In the fight. You're not thinking much about anything the fight. You're you have to be as as possible. Yeah. But in training, it's very very important. It's all about physics. It's all about how you the right way to get leverage into technique. If you do a technique from this position is less effective than you do it from this position. And why oh your weight is lower your pushing off the back leg in this position. Do you get that extra thrust off the back leg, your turn your hip into it accentuates the power, but many are not thinking about it in terms of physics? They're just thinking, I guess this works better. Let me do it this. So they have to do more experimenting to find the sweet spot. But if you're thinking physics, you could bypass some of that testing because you know, what the Fokker is. And the way the especially center of mass all of this. So I'm just curious if more MMA people should be a taking physics classes. I think. Anything where you would be more aware of how to generate power or how to avoid of avoid the impact of something. That's also a big factor. I think that would most certainly help. But I think in terms of especially jitsu jujitsu is filled with nerds. Like if you go to class. Yeah. You would think it's going to be a bunch of thugs and big neck guys. No, it's mostly heard. Well, they have pretty thick necks because they're, you know, just constantly using your neck muscle, and you have to strengthen, but they're mostly nervous asan's. The best guys are very very intelligent. Nerd fast. That's quite a that's a great movie. So john. Let's let's explore some of the physics of fighting. Okay. You call the fist messenger. Yeah. That's very literary of you. What do you mean? When you think of that? Well, that came from my cage fighting professor professor Mark Schrader those actually his face. He called the fist messenger new ideas that that the body is generating a tremendous amount of force as you step into the punch as you turn your hips as you twist your shoulders, and if you're a big strong, fellow as a lot of these guys in the gym are a lot of energy, huge energy is being delivered and focused into the knuckles of that hand because they have a body behind the punch body and all that motion behind so not only the body, but generally in most sports speed matters. So if you throw a fast punch. The physics of it that I would think of is the higher Connecticut energy, and you wanna part Connecticut from your fist into the target could be your ribs or your face or whatever else. Right. So that tells me that you can't. Whereas your fist moving its fastest. Like here is it at the end it was probably somewhere in the middle. So it's probably uncomfortable distance. You'd have to be to have maximum sort of Connecticut energy transfer just thinking of my feet right now uncomfortable in terms of the danger, your yeah. Yeah. Lutely being punching range is a very dangerous place to be right, kicking range feels a little safer, but punching rate is very dangerous because order futile land guys can be ranged exactly head movement and the military they say because there's some there's some weaponry that if you're shooting at night, there's a visible fuss for tracer tracer. Yeah. And so we can know what you're hitting. But for every for tracer that comes out the enemy knows exactly where you're gonna right, right. So even though it helps you face it back. Trace it back to you. So it's not always there's always work in your favorite. Tell me about the gloves. No gloves debate. In other words, big fluffy pillow, right or like the old days. Well, gloves were added in the nineteenth century in any honest effort to make this more humane, and it backfired catastrophically most people think gloves make the sport safer, and they do make say the makers say for the hand make catastrophically more dangerous for the brain. Because once you armor that fist you make basically invulnerable to today, you turned into a brutal club, then control round with wild abandon with no consequences. Neil. Consequently their hand at all otherwise, you just be breaking your fist to pieces against people. School skulls are are heady strong, probably stronger than the bones of your hand much much. The global has to do is to bypass the brains, very formal formidable defences, the skull. And so it's it's been a real catastrophe. When we always find the skull. You don't find a little bones of the hand? Right. From makes it all the way, he's a little tiny, fine bones. Yeah. So compare now the effectiveness of a punch in kick. I would kinda rather be punched kicked my natively. I think this the one reason you might rather be kicked is more likely to miss your over six feet tall. My kick. My foot has to travel probably nine feet to get to your head. So kids are are worse if they land, but punches are easy easier to land. So let the actual data on this. And the last time I looked for years ago about eighty five percent of Cao's TKO's and professional cage fighting came back outs. Yes. Care not. So the most for the most serious head trauma came not from the elbows, not from the knees. Not from the feet from the hands. The most dangerous weapon in the sport is still armored hand because it's most acceptable to you. It's close and it's fast fast. When a when a kiss. Lands. The person can be real bad. It can be real very hard to land. Because I'm looking at the mass of the five. I mean, the mass of leg relatives of the arm. Yeah. There's no contest here the transfer film intimate full, and you're usually hitting them with the ship in the shin is one of the biggest densest bones in the body. So have you ever gotten knocked out cold? Yeah. Yeah. Once I did what did that? I've never been knocked out cold. I was barring this big heavyweight named Clark young Encarta. Always took it easy on me. But it was so big and strong that didn't really matter and one day, you know, I he knocked me out, and I just went away from minute. And I came right back. I didn't even know that I have been going on. I got up and kept trying to bar, and he just kind of grabbing hugged me and said, oh when you sleep there from oh, so it was very confusing. Gentle giant. He's nice guy. Yeah. Just kind of being buried my head and his Cleveland and. And become had in my head. That's how I like to fight with. Yeah. Very affectionate between guys actually it's kind of weird is all this kind of violence in abreast. They're trying to kill the end of the fight it dissolves into these very heartfelt, hugs, and congratulations or not. Join become friends actually fallen in love a little bit. By the end of that. We send our star talk senior science sidewalk. Correspondent, you know. We have one of these. Yes. Chuck nice to 'em mate. Jim here in New York City just to find a little bit more about the physics of fighting. Check out his dispatch. I'm here. Jake NYC school of mixed martial arts. And I'm standing here with Chris Moran. Who is a master of the physics of fighting. All right. Chris for we get into this. I want to let you know that I got some skills. So maybe I should show. You what I got? Okay. Got. But I'm gonna come at you for real. Okay. That's okay. I'm good warm. I go hold on. Right. All right here, we go. We're not playing paddock case fan. What's this? You on good. I'm sure. He go ready. Let's go. You know, what maybe maybe you should show me if you let me say, the, okay, please us go. So what happened? All right. So I had my hands up and why you were attacking me. I defending put a solid structure to your hand. Okay. Now, I'm gonna come in with overwhelming force now as take control of your neck of not bring you down using gravity and my body weight. So no put you in a submission. All my. All right. You go getting out and the name was science. Next. We explore the psychology of manliness when star talk return. My interview with medium, Joe Rogan podcast. The Joe Rogan experience plumbs the depths of his favorite topics, and they include hunting is check it out. I got into hunting because I had seen too many of these factory farming videos, and I decided that I was either going to come vegetarian or was going to be a hunter. And so that's how I get all my food. Now, I go on three or four hundred a year back freeze it. Yes. Hack it out of the freezer. Yeah. I that's why like elk because elk is like four hundred pounds of meat. So basically, I could eat it for a year. Then I got into archery. And I realize this is even more difficult way to do it because I literally have to get inside of you know, forty fifty yards. I can't you know, I can't I can't not that accurate outside of fifty sixty are shot a deer at sixty art stuff. Longest I've ever shot anything with the bone marrow. With a rifle that's easy with a rifle one hundred dollars. Nothing. Two hundred yards pretty easy. But with the bone marrow requires much more discipline, much more work, much more practice. I practice every day. And to me it is also a moving meditation why I'm concentrating on target. And i'm. Just drawing back looking at target in my yard. That is all that is on my mind. I'm just thinking about my shot process concentrate on the target and in doing that, I find that it just sort of slowly eases me down relaxes me from stress and pressure. So it's very much a discipline a martial art a meditation, and it's a way I get my food. So there's a lot of things to that. There's a lot of when I eat that food like if I cook an elk Stig cooked elk state last night. That's I've a deep attachment to that that was a screaming giant forest horse with trees growing out of its head running up a hill. And I shot it with an arrow and it's hard to do. It's very difficult to do. So I in my mind, I earned it. And there's a like an intense connection to my food that way. You written about how human evolution affects our behavior today. So is Joe tapping into this deep evolutionary crime oh urge by hunting zone food in modern time. I guess he must be. I mean, this is a this is a I don't know. It's one of the deepest oldest male commission. I guess being hunter I am. So not a hunter that I'm not really qualified to comment on what? So if hunting and fighting is sort of Manley, then Joe Rogan is the man's man's, man. Yeah. He's sort of cartoon almost so so I asked him about. The main leanness of hunting and fighting and being the man's, man. Check it out. You you do man sings. Well, you just caveman manifested in modern day. There's definitely some savages in my past for sure. But for me, those are just that I'm interested in all these things I find martial arts to be exhilarating and fascinated by and I find them to be extremely rewarding. A translation his academic interesting kicking people's ass. Yeah. But getting my ass kicked two. That's a big part of it to the the humility that comes from that. It's very important important one of the things that you get from jujitsu. Is you get strangled a lot? And you get humbled a lot. You know, there's there's a lot of people that I could call up right now. And I'd say, hey, you wanna go train, and I'll just go and get my ass kicked. And it's going to happen. A hundred percent of the time. There's people that I'm gonna kick their ass. One hundred percent of the time that I know call them up to I feel bad. What did he little ego boost? But I know plenty of people that fuck me up every day of the week a wake him up at three o'clock in the morning, and they choke me unconscious. It's just the way it is. It's there's no getting around that. And I think that that gives you a more honest understanding of where you fit in in the food chain. Hunting. I'm interested in that. I mean, archery interested in that I all these things that I pursue. I don't look at them and go all that's a manly thing. I wanna be manly. Let me go. Learn how to do some Manley shit. No. It's just entirely what I interested in. Want to be friends with Joe Rogan? Now, you just learned that he'd call people in the middle of the night. Just to either kick ass. We're get his ask, you know. Thank you. I get brench with my friends. Fight that also before he going I want to introduce this button in case things get to masculine for me. I'm just gonna hit it. I want you to scale it back to a little. So what are some of the traits that we we either stereotypically or biologically assigned to male behavior? Masculinity is is pretty much cultural. I mean, not away you go on the world. It's pretty much culturally defined in the same way there's variations, but it's very on theme. It's pretty simple masculinity is strength. And the thing when you say that masculinity is Frank starts reaching for that button. Because wait a second. What does that mean, femininity weakness? And no no one's suggesting now or you weren't saying that you're not insane. I'm gonna say that fan. So so so, but what it means to me is that? Women's gender identity. There is not threatened in any way by display of weakness. Whereas for a man, displaying weakness displaying, a cowardice is one of the most damaging things to the social reputation that's true for some males other meals. Don't have that at all. Are we saying they're not manly? Or if you picked those properties and said, I defined that to be manly. And not the peaceful man like Gandhi, why not pick all the peaceful men out there who have been against war against fighting against blood and budget and notice that they're male say that's mail because you do the experiment you go around from society to society, and you ask them what our men like. And they go down the list, and they tend to come up with strength terms. But in modern times to have even having the conversations kind of taboo, it is very dangerous. You just brought out the button, I'm already thank God. She's been been very. Simple about it. So for the you know, emotions of men that's different than the fighting part. Can lead to the other. But it is. But it is taboo subject, and I think what do we gain or lose by not having that conversation. Well, this this is I think it's very important. I think there is deep and stubborn biology to some of these worst aspects of male behavior, and it's uncomfortable thing. But we we need to face it. Because as a species not just as society, but as species we really need to get men to behave themselves better. Right. I mean, they know responsible for the worst stuff we just like the worst thing to happen to humanity to earth. Right. We don't need this. Primes them. Right. The most corrupt right? The most. And if you're not gonna face what the actual sources of those problems are how you ever gonna design solutions to correct them. Exactly. We'll up next. We'll have more of my interview with comedian podcast host. Star. This is start. The American Museum of natural history right here in New York City, featuring my interview with Joe Rogin and joke hosts a podcast that explores mental and physical wellness, and I asked him about sort of the health fad of sensory deprivation, check it out. I'm a big proponent of the sensory deprivation tank. I have one in my studio. Now at my new studio studio asks have you done it before? No, no, oh, you got nothing in principle against it. I just gotta do it. I just like making weird faces about it. With an odd sits on. I'm like my senses. Okay. Don't take him away from him. It's not taking anything away. What it's doing is. There's a a large tank, and it's filled up with water that's heated to ninety four degrees, which is roughly that of your skin, and then there's a thousand pounds of Epsom salts in there. So you float and you're half your body. Like if you sectioned your body in half half of it as underwater half, it is above because the density of the salt in the water, and you need that because you have really low fat content, and your muscles would sink otherwise that. But most people are going to sink, you know, unless you're in an ocean. I mean, if you really if you can float in the ocean without anything go to a doctor and get on a diet. This way too much fat in your body. But yeah, I'll sing like a rock so this tank with this warm water, that's filled with salt when you lay in it. You can't tell where the water is where the air is because it's all the same. So once he relaxed once you settle into your completely floating, your breathing. Your eyes are closed, but even if you open your eyes total darkness your ears, who's a coffin lid goes over. You is a big mind is like a meat locker shut this big giant doors of really big tank and you lie down in this thing. And in the absence of sensory input. Because you're hearing nothing you're seeing nothing feeling nothing. You feeling I think eating anything. No, your brain is like supercharge because you have access to so many more resources. What's the difference between that and someone who meditates to achieve similar internal I meditate in there? I think essentially it's meditation. I think that if we're having this conversation, so. Not only to go sensory deprived meditate on top of that. Yes. Yeah. So have you been to the surface of Mars in your in your mind while fit in this tank? Oh, I've had crazy experiences in the tank. The your brain produces psychedelic experiences on its own in the absence of sensory input over long periods of time. If you relaxed enough it's like layers onion peels back in peels back the beautiful thing about that. As if people that are curious about psychedelic experiences, but don't want to just try mushrooms. You can have psychedelic experience. That's completely natural end. It ends instantaneously the open the door. It's like this is too freaky. The open the door you get out, and it's just normal life. Yeah. Your brain in the absence of sensory input completely alone in the dark. Your brain starts you start tripping. Dreaming. It gets very weird. Joining us for a discussion of technology and mental wellness is clinical psychologist, leave Argos. Leo. Welcome to. I won't go. Thanks for joining us. So you use techniques like technology biofeedback to help patients so to train focus their minds is that a fair characterization of what you do. So are there proven mental health benefits to a sensory deprivation tank over as a kind of fad thing there's mixed an anecdotal evidence and were moving to this world of psycho physiology where where dressing the mind body simultaneously. So the idea of shifting physiology to shifting Masai colleges emerging in technical devices like sensory deprivation tanks. So these tools to organize senses trained, so that you can isolate or enhance or suppress exactly where we're using the noise to amplify the signal and the signal can be different depending on what type of performer you are in life. But there were a neurosurgeon, and you need to have a clear mind operating, you're an amendment fighter in need to have a clear my. You can access muscle memory it serves signal conserve different puncture, you treat athletes as well as others who are highly specialized in their talents. So what's going on in the brain, lots of times nations of the past and the future and not being very focused on the present. So the chemical I mean what what's happening chemically what often happens? It's called beta waves in the brain. I call them squirrels and they're running around and running around and keeping the brain very active as opposed to being more of a meditative or alpha like state, which is what the sensory deprivation tanks. Do. Okay. So these are distractions correct, but learning to control pieces of the physiology heart rate variability, for instance, allows you to gain control over your Coug nations your decision making the biggest nerve connects from the heart to the brain. So actually gaining control of your heart rhythms affects your brain functions. What next Joe had a question for me about the universe? Check it out. My number one question that have always had about the universe is do we think of the beginning of the universe? And then the potential end of the universe. We think of it that way because of our own biological limitations of birth and death. No, no, I'll tell you. Why? Why? All right. If you look at have a collection of books school textbooks that go back to and a half centuries. So you look at these strana me books and the mix of topics changes as we learn more about the universe. But none of the books talked about the universe as a thing that had a beginning middle or an end. It just wasn't even there. And then relativity comes up and Hubble discovers the expanding universe. Wait. We're expanding. That means yesterday we were smaller than we are today and the day before that we even smaller run that card back. Holy shit. There's a day when the whole universe was in one place beginning nobody thought about a beginning before that other than biblical beginnings. Nobody scientifically thought about it beginning. So there was no urge. There was no humid urge to wrap the universe in a tidy box with a beginning and an end. Sorry. Maybe there is such an urge. But we never even had the occasion to think about the universe in that way. Is that the data once the data came in there? It is. It's gotta beginning. And right now far as it looks like there is there will be no end. No, no, no discrete end. We will expand forever. What about the idea that it all will eventually contract back down some saying there's impossible? There's. Einstein's relativity allows that as one of the solutions to his acquaintance, but solutions to equations of the universe. Don't have to be with the actual universes about you wanna look at the parameters that control the actual universe. And when you do so we don't have enough mass to recaps the universe. So I'm so in other words, I can talk. I can toss a shoot for minute. Converse? All stars very nice grew up on this. So if I toss this up comes back. Okay. All right. That's universe has enough mass. So even those expanding is slowing down one day stopping and Rick Lansing, but there's a speed with which I can toss this. So that it will never come back the escape velocity of earth that seven miles per second. If I thought it seven for second earth will keep trying to on it. It'll still get slower, but it will get to Infinity before earth slows down to zero. The universe is expanding at escape velocity. It's never coming back. Thank you for your shoe, Dan. So Joe in addition to all the other things that intrigued him he's just thought deeply about the connection between wellness and our place in the universe. And I'm wondering we had to do your patients. Are they search of something bigger than themselves? If not religion than some spiritual activities where they just need a simple fix to get through their day connection is one of the most important and frequent and desires, I hear amongst all age groups from the speak to the speak really connect to what people as well as the motions. So there's a type of emotional relating restricted, and I see it often where people who can't let go then operate from subset of frequencies when they have this beautiful radiant emotional range. And so by being able to, cultivate, the Bill. To let go through alternative techniques. We've been talking about physiologically mediated century deprivation, if you meditation you let him out of the box. Able to feel the world more deeply feel emotions perceive other people's emotions and connecting richer way. Last clip, I asked Joe Rogan for his thoughts about the connection between physical and mental health just to try to Thai Bo on conversation that we've been having check it out. A poor physical state will affect your mental state it grinds on you. If your body is uncomfortable. If you feel sick everybody, really appreciates health and wellness when they get sick. So we'll miss is the combination of the mind gas. Yeah, I think so okay. It's a combination of vitality and clean mind, you know, or a healthy mind and how much of that. Do you get from supplements versus diet versus any kind of things you do just for mental piece? I think it's all combined into one big money Dala of facts. And it's always been very unfortunate that people have associated fitness and exercise with morons and meet heads because it's made people averse to exercise the dumb jock. Yeah. You don't wanna be that guy? You don't wanna go to the gym. You don't wanna be around those people those people that picked on you in high school. You shove? Give you the wedgie shocker. Yeah. So people bullying been physically accosting, right right now way. Brought. Yeah. Back then I was. Shuqing out of you. What I got bullied. It was violent. It wasn't. It wasn't like today. Right. But yeah. So the the idea that any of those things are separate. I think is that's an allusion. They're all connected, and even brilliant people who don't exercise, I think could benefit from it. I think the greatest minds that we have that don't exercise doing themselves deserves a really believe it's a mental and physical thing. But I was in college wrestled, a two hour workout each day from four to six you're a stud when you were young. I saw some pictures Jack. In the day. Look at those pictures and just go back to the. So a lot in tonight's episode. And and I will recognize confess that there's something primal to this element of combat, but I see primal things in other expressions of what it is to be human. Do you know anyone who doesn't enjoy a beautiful sunset? We all do why the sun is going away. It's gonna get cold in a few minutes. It's but somehow we all participate in a communal beautiful moment. Why don't we say that? That's primal. Why don't we say that taking a stroll in the park holding someone's hand primal? So I think of a future not have one as where we're all watching fights. I think future where our species comes together in ways where we find what we. We have in common. And celebrate that rather than under a microscope try to find what is different and fight each other. Because that is. You've been watching star talk. I've been your host Neal the grass has always been you to keep looking.
"Written and read by extra innings. Joe History you'll find a sixty five million year old tyrannosaurus rex under rolling the museum's Rotunda Aptly named Jersey Kong but without question Brownstone with sizeable basement and steep walk up the display includes on assuming plaque and bronze if not copper relief with the eye catching not only a century's worth of local lore but most celebrated national pastime Asian beyond the vibrant call of the Avian Wing or the lure of man so these are the layers of life the eroded sediments of time as I mentioned in nineteen forty one item from the Hudson Clipper New York Daily Star and the Syracuse Zephyr there is the account of Roger and Polycom the New England telephone company after a sequence of unsuccessful patches to a local sleep. They purchased the house at one twenty-one Hobart Street near Colby Point in nineteen thirty aren't tapestry above the kitchen door that reads just peachy a homey mark stealthy Mus skill vital to any door to door solicitor Roger Provided Nights. They played bridge at Putnam Hall the meeting place for the country's first couples only harper twin mysteries the each wilder eight minutes suspense as our drive out to Newark Bay or ship we island that is if they hadn't already Ichi then had they unearthed what appeared to be the bone of a human finger sticking up through the soil Davidson arrived on the scene shortly after his officers unburied the hand and forearm police exposed the complete skeletal remains of the eighteen seventy nine hoboken the three hundred and thirty batting average during the eighteen seventy seven seas led by the Kaiser to win the war another remembers a gang of keyed up boys after several days of excavation the police aided acts myths and the hoboken may it was third baseman the wall of no man or ball get by Duke Waldo Bill Abbie when everything was said and done authorities you're tired winslow. An owner said Barrington still clinging to his leather ledger containing as reported in the New Jersey Vanguard a talented group of Ragtag ball players from hoboken the eighteen seventy nine huskies were poised to dominate the division previously losch ended by the majors for packed ballparks wood and steel browser fields love of local amateurs who call themselves the huskies ball and a ringing chorus of crickets was calling them home early defense specialists that could swing a bat which he practiced in the saloons for pay Lucius Garrett an old soak covered I and always kept a nipper in his pocket hist ventures most notably the manufacturing of office desk with interchangeable as well as an expression of his passion for the game unfortunately organization the Hoboken Huskies unbeknownst to the players was on the brink Breeze out of the South West the team took to the diamond to prepare for their season opening the first nine we're in rare form and Lucius Garrett wasn't even sloshed and it was just after lunch when the winds picked up one eyewitness reported who caps atop their heads as far as I could tell the other teams followed suit shortly streetcar operator exclaimed a Flash Storm of Biblical proportions the Anomaly lasted ends up Jersey its effects would span over generations uh three of the formerly named Roger Kern Museum of Natural History and detailing educational in nature and simple but fair stipulation berty of Roger and polly Kern became a national historic landmark in nineteen sixty grown since purchasing the house in nineteen thirty seven one of the only homes history museum with dinosaur bones. Botany exhibits selective agreement which included a hefty one time undisclosed fee a figure juror would live out the rest of his days near his wife they're adored owner. Roger Kern as he stepped out onto the stoop each day new w Stratton Museum of natural history after the former governor engaged most visited natural history museums in New England their main rival I'm set in the university's iconic painted rock took a top seat in the standings claim their position and the race for the northeast pennant and a shot the title of most two of their New England glandular toads which despite their their contract stated that the toad would stay with the W Stratton Organization for ten years we'll diet with green leaves and carrots the toads blinky dot went Bailey county found a hot streak when they introduced their impressive exhibit on so the w stratton fought back by sabotaging their water fountains chili powder in the end the huskies despite most visited Natural History Museum in New England only to lose out Roger Kern passed away in Nineteen ninety-one and is stipulated across from the emergency exit next to the main floor bathrooms owned Berg with an introduction by Nicole seach and artwork by Adrian come or email us at contact dot casual Friday at gmail.com.
Smithsonian Museum and Zoo records the natural world as it collides with human civilisation
"The science show on Aren. Washington DC is packed with scientific institutions on a vast scale. And when there isn't a shutdown. They are a must visitor not least is the Smithsonian network. My name's Kirk Johnson. I'm the Sant director of the Sony national museum of natural history at the Washington DC National Mall. What is the extent of your collection? We have a remarkable collection. It's almost a hundred and fifty million objects the largest networks direction in the world by far is about twice as large the next largest one, and it represents the full spectrum from all living things on planet earth, all the minerals and fossils of planet earth and the human cultures on planet earth and looking after the must be a gigantic job. It's a vast job. We have a staff of hundreds of collection managers and curator's whose job it is to acquire the collections continue to grow them to take care of them to make sure they're used for scientific research public education. Is there any argument these days about to whether you know? The seventy threats to the natural world that collecting and doing systematics and other classification is somewhat nineteenth century, and you really ought to change that sort of thing to do something else in no way. The fact is that netra she museums have preserved what we as humans know and understand about the natural world, and we've collected them over the last several hundred years at the same time as human impact on the planet was increasing. We've basically collected the story of our planet as intersex with the growing humanity in civilize -ation, we need to keep collecting, and I can assure you that the actual impact on naturally systems from collecting miniscule compared to that related to agriculture habitat, destruction pollution and cetera. So we're really part of the solution and not part of the problem. And in fact, when these museums work rated the nineteenth century, they were aware that humans are having an impact it's one of the reasons they made the museums was to document our footprint on the planet as we were understanding what was in the planet. In other words, if you're doing. Doing the classifications naming of parts of such like, you can track the changes and the impact of the human activity. Exactly. And we know the planet has far more species that we've ever discovered we've maimed about two million things, but the probably about ten million things. So we're still in the basic discovery phase at the same time looking at what is the impact you community on the planet. I'm wanting a priorities. These days we are really doing the three branches. What our museum does one is to ten and grow the national collection to do scientific research. It's relevant to humanity and the natural world and three to share that with his large public as possible. And this year, we're opening the national hall of fossils on June eighth which is the story of life on earth an embeds humans within that story. So the story ends actually in the future not in the past. So well that look like when it's opened in three months time. We'll walk into gigantic hall. It's one thousand square feet. It has actual specimens of ancient animals and plants are. Arranged in a rough time line goes up through the recent ice ages and then into the origin of humans in theon human civilization and into our present dilemma, the twenty first century. How do we as humans survive the center without destroying the environments of the world, and well, keeping sustainable future alive for all the people on the planet one quick question. And you'll history who was Smithson James Smithson was an English chemist mineralogy st- who when he died willed his estate to the United States for the formation of an institution for the increase in diffusion of knowledge in Washington DC, and it was about five hundred thousand gold, crowns, and it was enough to start the Smithsonian Institution eighteen forty six and at the museum you'd be delighted to receive a strain visitors. Of course, we love us trillions cut Johnson Smithsonian museum of natural history. And then there is the zoo. I'm Steve Montfort. I'm the director of this Massoni national zoo and concert. Nation biology institute, the national zoo is in Washington DC right in the center of town. And that's the one you look after. Yes, sir. You were talking before about the scale of what you do could you just summit up for us? Sure. We have have zoo. If two million visitors that come way of four hundred species in two thousand animals, but beyond that, we have one of the largest research departments of any zoo in the world, and we focus on a spectrum of work from two individual animals in our care all the way to the work. We're doing to save them in the wild elephants. You mentioned, you know, elephants are at risk of extinction. Asian elephants are in great risk in the wild. There's fewer than fifty thousand animals left and many of them were used in logging activities in past years. And in the recent times, those animals have logging as been ceased and these animals four thousand more or less, unemployed Asian elephants, and they represent a treasure trove of biodiversity genetic diversity represented in those animals is very important. So we. I don't understand how we can rewire those animals, basically, create some social groups that can then be placed back into existing intact for systems. So we can not lose valuable genetics that they represent to their wealth counterparts. And so you'll mainly looking after the genetic heritage, you're not reviled in the meal solves well, actually, what we're doing these these animals some of them may have actually been wild animals at one time they have a very long lifespans decades ago. They may have been taken from the wild on. There are some that have been born in these camps in captivity. So really, we have to understand how do we take these groups of animals, and sort of reacclimated them to living in the wild in a way that they will survive and thrive when we do that. And what sort of scale that how many elephants have you dealt with in that sense. You know, we're really the well the effort is just beginning with something in the neighborhood of four thousand of these elephants now compared to only fifty thousand left that's a very large number. So we're really at the very beginning of understanding what that population represents genetically. And then trying to figure out what are the factors that we need to take into account that will lead to success? You know, when we're putting together, these are, very smart animals are social animals, you can't just throw them back into the wild. And hope for the best we need to be able to understand the social factors. How are we going to track them and make sure that they're successful? Once they're released some sort of work with other animals on the other round the world. Absolutely. We work in about thirty different countries. We have a staff around two hundred and fifty scientists that are working on everything from EMF IBI ns and avian species all the way up to elephants. So it's a very diverse portfolio. We work in thirty countries. A lot of work in Africa southeast Asia Latin America, how many people know that. I mean in the United States the extent of what you do not very many, people know that the Smithsonian does research at all much less that we have national zoo that's leading the world, and what we do people think of this Massoni, and as a cultural institution that houses Lincoln's hat and Dorothy, ruby slippers, and that sort of thing but in. Reality. We have the largest assemblage of biodiversity and conservation scientists of any institution in the world. If you look at our natural history museum, our environmental research center tropical research institute, and our zoo. It's quite an awesome, assemblage of intellectual strength. Congratulations. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much steeped Montfort is the director of the Smithsonian's national zoo. And he spoke of the trip last meeting in Washington DC just ended.
Are Cicadas The Only Ones Having a Hawt Gurl Summer? with Entomologist Dr. Jessica Ware
"Right now an ear of the neighborhood listened starring Paul Tomkins and Nicole Parker is out for free. Check out the first episode with Special Guests Maria. Laszewski wherever you get your podcasts for more follow at Your Wolf on social, media happy listening. You like podcasts right whether you listen occasionally or can't get through your day without them. There's great app you need to try. It's called Stitcher stitcher is a free APP for. android that's really easy to use from classic favorites to new hit shows from Oprah and Conan O'Brien as well as the best of true crime like cereal, and my favorite murder stitches home to all your favorite podcasts visit stitcher dot com to download stitcher for free today. Welcome to getting curious I'm Jonathan S and every week. I sit down for a forty minute conversation with a brilliant expert to learn all about something that makes me curious on today's episode, IV joined by Evolutionary biologist an analyst Dr Jessica Wear and Associate Curator at the American Museum of Natural History New, York and associate professor at the Richard Gilder graduates. Will I ask her? Are, bugs insects, the only ones having a hot girl summer. Hey welcome ticketed curious bed as ABS so excited for today's episode. There is a lot to digest and a lot across in the world, and sometimes you just need to get into that science, so you can just like keep learning. But just give yourself a bit of variety so with that being said it. Welcome Dr. Jessica where you are an entomologist, an evolutionary biologists, you're an associate curator of ODA and none hollow Matab insect at the American Museum of Natural History New York and you're an associate professor at the Richard. Gilder Graduate School, and this is also I think one of the most amazing things is your the also the VP elect of the intimate logical society of America and the President of the worldwide dragonfly association. You got credits on edits with the site accredits all caps lock like with some other pretty funds, too, so thank you so much for taking your time to talk to us. Dr Jessica where. Thank you for having me? I say if you call me and ask Me Talk About Dragon Visor, insects. In five seconds because I think talking about insects is whether the that's an most fun pastimes so I'm ready I'm excited. I can't wait so okay. This is kind of where this episode started from came from. This is why I wanted to have you on so I think you know we were all in quarantine. And then we started reading those articles about all this akitas coming up in Virginia and West, Virginia and that made me think about this time and nineteen ninety-six in Quincy Illinois like where I'm. I'm from and like my family had moved out to this farm, and I remember like the second week we got there. There was like there was two garages and this like the second garage as we so called, it was like covered in Cicadas, and there was an aide said that is one of the like the every seven year. Ones, but ever, but I lived there for like. You know another like while eleven. What's whatever time I lived there for like another? Like however many years till two thousand and four from ninety six, so yeah, eight years and I never saw them again, so then I read about these ones and I and I hear those e seven year ones, and then there's these seventy what what gives with these Takeda's. What are they? Why are they doing this like hibernation adjacent? Cousin of hibernation. I mean in a way. They are really amazing. Right because they do have evicted thirteen years or seventeen years. Maybe that's why you didn't see them. 'cause thirteen or seventeen There's no seven is no seven, but there are so. There's two kinds of CICADAS. There's the periodical ones that come out in these batches right? Where like you describe their everywhere you put you can shovel them up you know, and then there are annual ones. Ones and their annual ones come on every year so people's emotions get confused. I think about which ones that they have, but you can tell them apart because the periodical went they they all have the is Arabia I'd creatures but the periodical owens have red beady eyes so that there are a little bit smaller, so maybe those are probably the ones that you saw on your second garage. and it's a really. Really good strategy for them because they can avoid so they live underground as names, and they suck on SAF on plant juices is second roots and rootlets, and they moult five times to get larger and told soil temperatures around sixty four degrees. It signals a Q., and they all emerged at once, and they think that maybe the reason why they do this is so that that way they could just basically use satiafaction as As strategy, so they stuff the predators, birds, or whatever, and hopefully most of your brothers and sisters could eaten, and you don't, and you can mate. You know do what you need to do. They pass your genes onto the next generation, but coming out in such a huge number Only some of you are going to get eaten. Because eventually the predators are full right, and then the rest of you can mate lay eggs. And then you're in crawl into the ground and they gotta do. I'm okay. Wait. There's so much unpack their. Way I think before 'cause I we got to talk about success more curious that also you like because you're an apologist, which I think we learn on getting curious before in our episode about how can we BE LESSER TO BS? Is that basically you're studying like insects like analogy is like all things. Right yes, I like all into communion. Mostly specialty year can drag them Feis. Damsel flies and then termites and cockroaches, but. I have a graduate student that works on hits a hip Dr. the true bugs, only so all bugs or insects, but not all insects are bags rate, so it's just this one order that are bugs on either Grad student works on bugs so this. Way. All who. All insects would give that to me one more time. And also there's twenty. Seven or so twenty four, depending on who you talk to orders of insects. They're kind of these these boxes these bins which we've tried to group. Lake things with with another like things and one of them is called hippodrome, and they're called the true bags, and they're the only ones that actually bugs. All the other things that are insects are dragonflies or you know. Beetle, all Beatles or yeah or Anthony. Are Part of the bees, ants and wasps, but only the group. That's Metra are the true bags, so you can always impress entomologist if you say oh. Do you study insects or bags? And then they're like? Wow, that's a very good distinction. I can't believe that you know the difference between bugs in insects. It's good. It's a good party. So what are the distinctions what what makes one in the the other? Well all have an the their mouth parts that are designed for sacking so most of them sack plant juicy silom or plumb but. Some of them actually are modified to suck lead like assassin, bugs and things like that but so their mouth parts are like a little beak. It's called a rostrum, and it looks like a little pointy Straw and points down toward their belly, and they just stick it up and poke it into the. The, plant material, or in the case of things like bedbugs. They stick it to you. To get your your blood. So, a Hemmitt, trot is a bug. The insects are an insects or insects yet so him after kind of Eric kind of insect. The only true bug yet, the only true bugs. Order to be a bug, you have to like suck. It'd be bugs got a sack yet. No, you have to. You have these sucking mouth parts rostrum, dislike kind of beak with the straw that of points downwards towards your belly, your abdomen, and and you suck, either you know they. They've evolved over time to suck lots of different things, but I think the ancestor ancestral state, is it? They were drinking plant juices. But your favorite flash specialty is dragonfly. Damsel flies cockroaches, and WHO and termite, so people for a long time fat termites cockroaches were really different, but it turns out. Termites are dislike a fancy version of cockroaches that our social, so they had kings and Queens and workers and soldiers worked together in the colony, but they're really just. Cockroaches are just like a specialty version of Cockroach, so it kind of makes sense so cockroaches aren't so shaw. Elastic New York City cockroach-like. There's no sort of hierarchy there. They're just all on their own eaten stuff. Yeah, they're just living their lives. You know mating eating dispersing that with one goal in mind just passing on their genes, whereas in in colonies, like in the in things like termites they have altruism, they have collected behavior and sharing and group effort for a common goal in stuff like that, which the average caucuses and do. This is the thing I realized after interviewing scientists for some time to me because I'm so not a scientist for anyone listening. Listening like we're all just like. Oh, my Gosh, tell us everything, but then I'd be like sometimes. Scientists are like I. Really Am like all about this, but then like to me I'm like well honey. You can do all this stuff. 'cause like you're literally a doctor like yes. Oh, that's just so fascinating, but then I'm remembering that I was curious about Cicadas at now I want to hear about all the things that you like specialize west lies in, but then I also know that like I'm a journalist adjacent person I'm trying to learn about the kate. So basically I'm just having rhetorical by telling you about it so. So cicadas now because you also are an evolutionary biologist, which means that doesn't that mean that you study like evolution yelling? People who are into malicious really can approach it different angles and a lot of people who do into Melody de Pest Control. Protect food stores. You know we we like food. Brutus, good end pests also like food, and they wanna eat our crops, and so a lot of inch melody is dedicated to managing pests that would otherwise you know. Invade homes invade crops, and what have you, but those of us who are evolutionary biologists were kind of looking at insects from the different angle. We're not really trying to kill them. Necessarily we're trying to you know study. What's happened over the last four hundred or so million years? which is about how long we? We think there's been flying insects what's happened like what made them what made? There'd be so many different kinds of insects we think. Visit a over a million species of insects that have been described, but there might be million five, million, thirty million. A lot of people have suggested you know huge numbers of the potential number of and six that are out there, and so we kind of try and do look a little bit. You know, explore yourself. You know you travel around trying to describe me species what you can. And then for the ones that we do know about we tryin reconstruct what happened over there evolutionary history? What happened over the last? You know two hundred million years or so? Why do we have some species here? In other species in a different location wire. Something's in the tropic, and not in the Arctic or wires something near Chicken not tropics. Things like that. It's pretty so with. The I it? Yes, I'll give so a CICADAS so like and then like in the evolutionary sense, because the one cicadas like or reach adulthood in there like you know out, you know, it's swarm and everything, and eaten all the crops and stuff they fly right like don't CICADAS fly? Yes, AKITAS CICADAS fly they have very rigid and stiff wings. Their members of the in the group of insects have wings. and. There's three thousand species are so of CICADAS. There's a lot of difference what's how many are annual at how many are periodical? So we actually so there's three thousand species globally, but the periodical Windsor only in the United States which is mind blowing, right? They're only here in north. America are you sure? Are we sure I mean, but because because because you know how you're part of those people that bound the you found that one Chinese. You're the person who had to like say like Oh. Yeah, that's that one special beetle. In two thousand thirteen I was reading that on the Richmond the Roach so. Do you think that there's a chance that maybe? Someday they'll find out that there are cicadas like maybe that were hiding out like in like Chernobyl or like. Some rural part of Mongolia that we just haven't been to yet, or what about the Amazon? Well, it's true I mean we do find new species all the time I feel like sending huge like periodical cicadas where they come out in thousands and thousands, some human would have noted said like hey. Dec- analysis thousands of CICADAS right now I feel like we would have had some notes about it but still like new sort of the things Africa eating all the all the things right now. WHO's Lloyd's? Locust yeah, their close relatives just to hip JEB, but they're not him. After their a different group called Earth, Audra and those are all talk about cool. Those are really neat. Because they they they can either be. Swarming or they can not be swarming, and it depends on whether as juveniles there in crowded conditions, or if they're in solitary conditions, so if they're just eating their grass in schilling, not around a lot of other locus than they don't do this behavior, and they have green body, coloration but then if they. Are In large groups. If they're grown, you know or raise reared of someone who's done a lot of research on this, Oh, Jen Song! If ridden large groups our, it's very very dense than there was like a switch that turns on a black form, and they are Lucas like the ones that you hear about from the plagues that like swarm and. Being gracious appetites and dispersing, and it's a real problem. There's one of those what are those like. Events is going on right now and somewhere in Africa thinking it's like it's like really creating like a food. Threat like a food source. I don't know I, I literally just was reading about that like accidentally like yesterday completely unrelated to the prepar this interview. But do you know about that thing? Yeah, it's really very serious because it. Not only I mean like I, said you know. We are kind of competing with them for food sources, but even even just by That's the primary threat, but of course it's also just a giant nuisance. I mean there are like swarming. They're all people's houses. You Open your mouth. They're kind of you. Know flying. You know why. Why how did they get like that? Like the evolutionary standpoint like because it's like a natural disaster or whatever? How did they start in the county and with the guy that studied it? Like how? Why do sometimes they get all together? How does that even happen? Is it Kinda? Sakata is that? There's a concentration of a bunch of locust eggs well. Yeah, I think what happened is population density just gets higher. Higher and higher and higher until it reaches the threshold, and then they do this swarming behavior, so if you think about it from the perspective of the locus, it kind of makes sense right because if you're really densely packed, you kind of wanted to spurt soon spread out, and you're not gonna be competing and eating the same resources consuming in food, taking up all the same space so over long periods of. Of, evolutionary time that may have been a good strategy that you know if your population gets really really dense that you could have a switch that triggered to kind of move on and disperse I was trying to think of it from the perspective of what could have driven sector, because we always think of insects doing these things to us, but of course all of these things all of these behaviors evolved. Hundreds of millions of years or at least you know tens of millions of years before we got on the scene. Oh my God. That's so interesting to think about because we always think about how what they're doing to us. But really like bear just trying to live and like you know live their best Darwin like growing expanding life probably, but the next question of about to ask you. We'll take like thirty minutes to answer and I could literally talk to you forever. snitch up, often take a quick break, and we'll be right back with four doctor just after that. Ben and Jerry's three new non dairy. Frozen desserts are a new twist on beacon euphoria, so many non dairy flavors so little time Ben and Jerry's has three new non dairy. Frozen desserts made with sunflower butter. The Ben and Jerry's flavor gurus have taken a big leap this time. They're new non dairy flavors, or the perfect sweet treats for Vegans, Vegetarians and everyone in between. Check out the Ben and Jerry's sunflower butter lineup, and the whole non dairy family at Ben Jerry. Dot Com. That's B. E., N. J. E. R., R. Y. DOT COM. Doing more searching streaming these days, Hbo Max is a new streaming platform where all of HBO meets the Greatest Collection of movies and shows. It's all of HBO series Westworld. Insecure. At the Sopranos and blockbuster movies like crazy, Rich Asians, and a star is born together with timeless classics like wizard of Oz Casablanca, and the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. The most beloved TV honey friends Big Bang theory the fresh prince of Bel Air, Awesome Animation Rick and Morty Samurai Jack Boondocks superheroes and Super Villains from DC justice, League wonder woman suicide squad. Family favorites, Sesame Street looney tunes Scooby Doo. She's. They got it all in new Max originals for everyone love, life legendary, not too late with Elmo and all your favorites in one place for just fourteen ninety nine per month. Hbo Max has were here. They have legendary. Yes, lgbtq programming yes. Starts Dreaming Today. Download the APP visit. Hbo Max Dot. com to start your free trial. Free trial is for new customers, only restrictions apply. Hi I'm Paul F Tompkins I'm Nicole Parker and we have a podcast. It's outright now called the neighborhood listen. That's right on the neighborhood. Listen, we take real posts from neighborhood networking websites and use them for hilarious character Improv and we have very special guests like Karl Tart Tawny, newsome Mary Holland Nicole buyer, Bobby Moynihan Lauren lab guests, and many many more new episodes every Tuesday listen on Apple podcasts, stitcher, or wherever you listen to your pods, the neighborhood listen. This wasn't add about it. So, how do you get the rule? A locust investation plague or Keta. Like what's the life cycle that makes it end. Well. I mean with CICADAS event. I mean there's kind of like a time like they. All kind of emerge most of them are many of them are eaten Don't get eaten, they mate a lay eggs, the in kind of crevices of bark. And? Then the eggs hatch the NYMPHS drop down to the ground crawl under the ground, and then you don't see them again for either thirteen or seventeen years That's kind of how it ends right. It's kind of relatively people with climate change. It's becoming less predictable because some of them are emerging early. And what have you but with locus it? Really I mean the best thing you can do is is managed them with with. Integrated pest management. which could be a combination of biological control or insecticides, or what have you because you need to secure food for humans because without? Actually like a crisis at can lead to famine, but otherwise if left unchecked eventually, it will just die out on its own because Eventually there, many of them will die. the resources will be used up in the population numbers. Go down when the population numbers are low. They don't do the swarming behavior. Because then there's a switch psycho actually I got lots of space. There's not really anybody around me. And then they're in this other form, the green form, the non the non swarming form. I'm I. Didn't realize I was going to like struggle so much with talking about cicadas specifically, because I didn't know how curious I was about all the other bugs. There are that you know about so with locusts. How are how long do locusts live generally an? How Long Do CICADAS live? Generally like what's her life span of adulthood? Oh well. Any promotions accelerate spent of adulthood can be weeks or months on they're. Not that long even for dragonflies I mean they have one hot summer to do all the jobs. They have to find a mate. Make Babies. But I'm. All of these cases, they can have a much longer juvenile stage, so they go through these insects do. IS THEY EVERY? Months or years depending on the insect, they basically shed their skin and have a slightly larger version of themselves. For at least for these insects that we're talking about and so for dragonflies, for example they can be you know six weeks in the water or five years in the water, and then they emerged hers. Sakina 's especially the periodical ones periodical ones may be at molting. Every five years for seventeen years, and then they emerging have one hot summer to do all the jobs they have to do. You know mate, reproduce you know lay eggs at the Spurs, and the same with Lucas locates and of continually molting in juvenile stages until the adult stage within the adult stages are usually you know. One hot summers length the kind of get all the jobs does show them? So, all those bugs as we know them like CICADAS, locusts dragonflies. They never lived for like two years, or like what like there's not like some grand mommy or granddaddy are like maybe non binary dragonfly that is like three years old or a really old one. Will the are there multiple your all the multiple years old, but like the UB as if you were a teenager well no I mean as an adult I mean not the not the cicadas because i. get that that the CICADAS like when they're the little the little whatever they are on the ground. have to ask about that later. Because I'm curious what that is literally but. But there's never like an adult one the way that we know there's not like an adult dragonfly, or like an adult Takeda, or like an adult grasshopper, like none of them in their adult worms ever last more than a summer can I get a six month old grasshopper could I get a one year old CICADA, that like been thriving out in the wild for your as an adult, or no is always the summer. That's just how it is. Yeah. It's usually not not more than a few months. In a few cases where they found a no some Melissa, she found a Damsel fly with her colleagues in Columbia that had fungus growing on it, which means it probably was at least a few months old but it's kind of. Simmons can be hard to to guess how old they are. You can look at how tattered their wings are. Their wings kind of start getting shredded. Finley here in North America I mean they're not gonna live more than you know at least until October or so, because in New Jersey New York. It's GonNa. Get cold and then. The temperature will get him. So! Wait mold what was I thinking about? The mold growing wings I'm really shook by the wings getting tattered Dandenong to me, Oh. Yeah I was reading this other article when I was researching for this about like how I. I read so many articles. I can't remember which ones were about you. and which ones were just about insects, but The. There's evidence that like the dams applies in the dragonflies were the first things to fly like four hundred and million years ago. Yeah, that's but I didn't know what it. What is deal fly so I guess they still exist because your colleague bound when I guess I never heard of one. Where are they? What are they well? You probably have seen dragonflies and Damsel flies and just thought that. Maybe they were the same thing, so Jack, I have a prop, actually show you. This is a dragonfly right, and it's kind of stocky thick. Thick bodied, and usually they hold their wings out to the side when they land on something and downs of FIS not assure 'cause they're teeny tiny at. Oh, no, t tiny, but they're very slender. They have very slender bodies, which is why they're called Danza five 'cause, maybe sexism, maybe the patriarchy out a very slender abdomens, and they tend to hold their wings behind their back, and not all of them are blue, but in North America, often the ones that you see are blue in color. These like little thin blue things by water. Whereas dragonflies kind of stocky. They often fly, you know some dragonflies by really fast like thirty thirty five miles an hour as there for acts, which is this kind of chest part of their body at all muscle. You know it's just really really powerful flight muscle I'm flying. So you probably have the FIS as maybe just thought they were the same thing. This six thousand species of dragonflies Damsel FIS, three thousand dams applies around three, thousand, or so are dragonflies. And we find those all over the world. Found all over the world, and we had over three hundred in seventy, four, hundred four hundred species I think in North America so even New Jersey which I'm not from new. Jersey I'm from Canada, but I'VE GROWN TO LOVE NEW JERSEY, but New Jersey is not necessarily known for being. Nature's paradise, right? We have one hundred eight species year one, hundred, eighty eight. That's a lot I'm very impressed by New Jersey's dragonflies. I will say that I when I was filming in a Philadelphia Upper Queer I drove through New Jersey like twice a week going from New York City to Philadelphia obviously Philadelphia's in Pennsylvania, but you drive all the way through New Jersey and a absolutely beautiful state, that I never really got to see very much of an obviously on a highway, but still there's a lot of just like really beautiful. Marshy views and stuff that you would imagine there'd be a lot of a bug, so that's really interesting. Okay now the group the Y Y. We came so which I just I. Literally could talk to you for seventeen hours about bugs am am so shook, but I wanNA talk cicadas so. They're only in North America the periodic Owens, so that yeah, annual ones worldwide, but yeah, the periodical. You're only in North America and there's a woman named Chris Simon She's at University of Connecticut. She's in a lot of work. A her whole lab focuses on this group and she thinks that probably there was like one brood around ten thousand years or so ago. That just because of the end of the last glacial cycle. Because of. Forests kind of changed in composition in humans. You have modified for us. You know so. We can create our cities in our towns and stuff these. Population got isolated into these fifteen or so different broods that started. You know because of timing because of temperature at kind of diverge to have the seventeen year, which are mostly the ones that are in the northern part on the mid Atlantic, states are the seventeen year cicadas, and then there's the thirteen year cicadas which tend to be you know Alabama some of the southern southern parts of their range. So which ones do you think I? Because my hometown's kind of like right smack in the middle of Illinois, like north-south wise with them were on like the very western bit. So. It's like the middle like. Do you think it could have been either wine? Well? You know I don't actually know which one it is. That's in Illinois, but there is there's a website. It's called Magic Kedah, and you can look at the broods for your state and it will tell you the dates when they're going to be emerging the years like predicted ten years out like when you can see these, because it's actually like a hobby like a lot of entomologists and non entomologists like love to travel places to CD's emergencies, so they have these beautiful tables issue exactly where in each state each of the birds are as we. Got Okay so wait so then we were talking earlier about the life cycle. Like what's that whole thing like in the multi? Go from like one thing to the next like I don't. What are the life cycles of them like? Like baby nymph yet big NYMPH. What happened so? It's so neat because insects have two different ways of doing it right, so you? We think of things like the hungry Caterpillar right that is what's called a whole in metabolise insect. It has complete metamorphosis, so it goes in egg. Larva and PUPA and in adults so in the PUPA everything gets rearranged, and then they emerge as a butterfly. The Butterfly looks totally different than the pillar, but the things that we've been talking about like termites and cockroaches or CICADAS dragonflies. They don't have that type of of complete metamorphosis. Instead they have these like you, said an a and the nymph, and the nymph usually just looks like a small version of the adult and then they moult into A. Slightly larger skin a certain number of times, different sects different numbers of times until eventually they're the adult size, and then that's the final molten after they become an adult. They don't moult again. So the life cycle is can be really a funny If you have something this aquatic as a baby like dragonflies. DAMSEL PFIZER AQUATIC when they're when they're NYMPHS, so they swim around in the water. and they look really different from the adult, but technically they're still the same idea where it's an egg. nymph, no PUPA an an adult. Okay, so that's what I was because that is what was confusing me about because I was like okay Holum Fabulous I. Remember that word so basically the difference there is is that Nana mill non Halama Tabula S-. Ones or ones at basically like don't completely rearrange themselves and Holland metabolise ones are ones like butterflies. The caterpillars, yes, but basically, but the the Non Holum Tabula wants because that's I i. don't I've never seen a baby cicadas so basically the adult. CICADA once it finds a me and once the mom gets pregnant. It lays her. She lays the eggs in tree bark. Yes, so usually what happens, is insects fascinating right so they females and a lot of insects they can store sperm. It can store it for a period of time. So usually what happens is males will transfer sperm to a female, and then she'll do her magic ride. She'll get the sperm into the EG as it passes down the little slide her egg-laying device, and then she'll put the eggs into the bar and then the hang up there for awhile, and then the eggs hatch, and the nymphs kind of dropped to the ground, and then crawl into the earth, at some of the mix prosecutors, some of the tunnels from the maple boroughs. They're mostly drinking. They're only drinking Xilin. They're drinking fluid sat. So This is I don't know how real we WANNA. Get here when I WANNA get so fucking with y'all okay so. Anal? Secretions are just liquid right because they're unlike a liquid diet juice fast, so they're basically in these little like mud areas under the ground kind of being bathed in their emails decrease as they drink this up and that's their life for thirteen of seventeen. Year is really quick question because this is what I'm curious about because that's what I can't imagine, so the mom has the sperm in there and then her little baby. Obviously or whatever like pass through, and then it gets like it makes itself into little egg egos in the bar when the egg hatches and the nymph listed Nymph, because an adult cicadas looks like a what right so that's A. That's a very good point, so adults have wings. Maybe is they have these long wings and grasshopper. Well. Your legs I mean they're all in six six six legs, so they have six legs like a grasshopper, but they don't have a really big metropolitan, really big hind leg for being and indicators. CICADAS don't have that, so they just have kind of six spindly legs, but as juveniles. They do not look like that, so they do not have big wings. They don't have wing so instead. They actually are modified for their lifestyle. Right wouldn't make sense to have wings, and then crawl around under the earth because you're torn two. Tracks right so instead. Very very hard. EXOSKELETON and they have their front legs are modified for digging, so they have this kind of clause. That are spines they use can use to kind of dig into the ground and then they're very smooth over their back because they're just underneath and then when they emerge in their last mall. To the adult. That's when they you see them with the wings and. The Sakina, look the you know in. Let that you've used to seeing adult. So, did so did they always fall off the tree bark into the ground or juice, or do some crawl down, and some fall down, or is it kind of both I think it's kind of both I mean especially with the key in the case. The case of periodical cicadas it's frenzied right. And whatever works I think to get you into the soil so that you don't get eaten Do you know that probably is selected for whatever behavior gets you into the soil quickly after you emerge that you're not eaten by a Predator. I'll probably would be selected for natural selection. How can you can is a is a NYMPH Keta big enough for us to see like? Can you see it? Come out of the Bark and go down? No, I, mean nate. Maybe other people could, but they're very small. I don't have the best eyesight so small like the first in start which or the the thing that emerges from the egg. I in size are usually very very. Very, tiny so they'd be. It'd be hard to see I mean I guess it's also just unlikely that you would notice them, but certainly you will for sure be able to see the final one the one that crawls out of the ground that most to the adult, though sometimes see them. They're kind of Brown. Lucas may have a hunchback, and they'll be attached to tree, bark or Shrub. Seen that yes, I've I saw those covering trees, and it's just like their last shell, and then they must be like flying around, and you can see the seam in the back where they at kind of rips open, and they other body out when they do that I'm basically like their entire gut lining, and the lining of the Trachea, which is with which they breathe, it gets ripped out to systems. When you see those little shells, you see these whites. Anything's sticking out the back and that's what it is. It's like the inner part of their breathing. Apparatus has been ripped inside out as they can pull themselves out of this this juvenile state. into like a new breathing apparatus that got built on the inside that whole time, so they just don't need that old one. Yeah, and it just gets pushed out from the inside or something. Yes, just the lining of it, so the actual structure that you know the little tube is still there, but the lining of it is but get tripped out. What a way to go! Why can't even while not? No, WE'RE GONNA. Take a really quick break. We'll be right back with more Dr Square after that Oh. Let's Brisbane. And breathe how? About to get into any money state of mind. I'm Dr Imani Walker I've been practicing as a psychiatrist for over ten years. I know that so many of y'all don't know where to start when you WANNA. Talk about your mental health. State of mind, I'm going to have those conversations with you. Imani said of mind is out now so scribe now and Stitcher, apple, podcast, spotify or wherever you listen. About to get curious Jonathan. Doctor just wear. So yes, I have seen a lot of those bug. the last moult on trees, but would you also see those on the ground sometimes because they might emerge out of the ground to like with those be like on the top of the soil. Yes, sometimes you see them there because they've just that's just where they've chosen to emerge, but also some empty just fall off of the bark, or the Shrub, and then they land on the ground I'm I have kids in my kids? See them all the time the with that so they're definitely noticeable around the bottom part of the base of a tree. So then basically once they hatch, and they're adults like they're flying around CICADAS. They just have to find a mate. Reproduce. That's their goal is at one hot summer. They have to eat. Disputes. Find Most life has a goal of dispersal so that you can kind of mix genes, and what have you EAT disperse. Find a mate, do the. Mating part. And then lay eggs, and and then you can die. You know knowing that you passed your genes onto next generation, so they do this in like a kind of a neat way because Takeda's. How do you find a right? Like who? How do you find? A mate had when you're. You're a new CICADAS. You disengaged from the ground well one of the ways that they did. Did. It is with with noise, so we we think of CICADAS. People have been writing about kids since the eleonor since Omar or problem for, but that's what I remember reading in high school. You believe in talking about the song right you hear from Cicadas and that song actually has nothing to do with with us. The song is male singing to try and advertise their kind of. Sexual prowess their their genetic fitness, two females, so that that way females which can hear. They have tim that they can here with meals empty, can here. but females don't make noise. heels can pick up the sound, and if males able to call like especially if they call really hot times of the day, or for really long durations, the longer the call, the better. It's a sign right to sign a fitness because doing that really metabolic lakes offensive. Hard on your body and it's hard to do that when it's really hot, plus you risk you know drawing attention to yourself from predators and what have you so? It's risky game to do it, but if you can do it, and if you can do it well. Hey, that might mean that. If a female mates with you, her sons will also be able to do. Do that and they will also get a lot of mates so it's kind of like an advertisement like of how fit or how well the mail is so that females can use that as their criteria on to kind of figure out they can find to a makes it can go towards the sound. They can also figure out which made to go for. So then the once they had all the babies. We were talking a little bit about like their strategy. Unlike how many like the babies? There are, so that like you, you know hopefully don't get eaten like your brothers and sisters and I think I was so overwhelmed with how just all the buggery that I couldn't really talk about it yet, but now I'm just circling back. So, what was that all about? So they're either in the bark, or they're in the ground, but like birds and like other things would just WanNa come be like Yummy CICADAS. And eat all the eat like. Alec How do they bury like? Could you just go buy a tree? And like scoop shovel down in like Illinois or Minnesota or Missouri, Arkansas, and there'd be like a big old fuck and Brood of. CICADAS molten under there will they pretty deep but I mean they don't go deeper than the roots right because they need to be able to be feeding on the rootlets of the roots of the trees or shrubs. But I mean I think the things that are I, mean certainly they. They can be bit infected by toews. Also things can happen to them when they're in the ground, but it's when we think of them as as their Shoji for predators. We're thinking about them when they've emerged as adults because when they're in adult. Birds and other things will come into the materials including humans. I mean lots of people eat. they're tasty. If you fry them, they kind of Nutty so I mean they're. They're like a good food source, or at least a tasty foods I mean. I don't know how many you'd have to eat to get your recommended daily. For things but. A tasty food source so so their strategy of just kind of It's better to be in a buffet. Then be single sandwich sitting out there right because they're more likely that people will pick other items and not U.. S. is kind of the strategy using periodic in. Just like an end numbers like just because how much does like a mom like how much how much like a brood be will so females lay around four hundred eggs, so, but not all of them are going to survive to adulthood, but when it when the broods emerge I mean there are thousands and thousands of individuals come out like thousands and thousands is. It's like underestimating it. You know it's it's really really huge numbers. And they tend to be rather localized, so even though when you see them on the news or whatever it seems remarkable, but like in the State of New Jersey we have we have a couple of different broods, but when there's a brewed in northern New Jersey, that's emerged. I don't see them at my house near. Princeton, like I have to drive to northern New Jersey to see them, so the thousands and thousands because that's their kind of local range for that that route. So what's the one that's like really popping up in the news that we were reading about like a month ago or something? I thought it was like West Virginia maybe yet is when it's. It goes in West Virginia. Virginia North Carolina just three states at Sin this year, so I think normally we would have done is. We would have driven to see them as you know. Know Bug lovers, but because of the virus. You know we wouldn't be safe to do so but those are the ones I mean we've had a couple of years recently were routes that weren't supposed to emerge emerged early so we have one that's going to be coming up in New Jersey, and a few years, and I wonder why the timing is going to be like because. It's at. It's like a temperature threshold, so they have to Molt five periodical CICADAS. These five multi think and then when the temperature in their environment it is, I think sixty sixty five degrees I. Forget what the temperature is. The Nets acute to emerge as you know like with climate change. In a warming world. That clock is probably need to be recalibrated. Do we know like what that Q. is like? What is it in them that I would assume that like similar cue that like butterflies get to like? Go into a cocoon, or like a or like a dragon fire dance will fly gets to like what are those? Why do bugs know how to do that or insects know how to do that? I think for some insects are using light as a cue. You know in daylight as ACU-. insects are using temperature as Q. Afra- sure. Sometimes it's you know there's other cues in the environment or food reserves availability. That's also can be ACU-. at some of it might be hard wired, you know we're even in abundance of of food and and warm temperatures. Temperatures you know there are still going to censor still gonNA die. You know after a certain amount of time so it can be a combination of things. I think that they use but I think it's a testament to how you know. Four hundred million years of evolution has allowed insects to do a lot of very sophisticated beans right and telling time as well as they can you know, give or take for re for years? Going time like that is actually very remarkable, considering that their brains are not really not like our brain. They just have these kind of clusters of Ganglia clusters of nerves. But you're able to use this to actually do very very sophisticated things. I mean obviously you are an incredible scientist. You're so just. Brilliant in field and I guess I would love to take some time at the end I should've done at the beginning. I don't know why didn't just like I. I read a lot about like how you found this. You got to confirm the presence of this cockroach in new Jer- new. York New Jersey now. So what are some of like? What are just? I guess if you wanted to talk about like the chronological or the chronological, this of your career and kind of. Just like what are some of the high points in in the things that you've got to confirm or like your most exciting kind of stories from the Job Oh? That's a good question I of think like at the time. When you're doing a project, it always seems like it's the most fun when like look everybody project where I thought this one was very fun owned that again for each one seems like it's the most fun when so we've done a lot of work so dragonflies when I was first starting out, I can tell you this. I thought dragonflies or so pretty. They're so colorful like you can get any so many different kinds of them I'm sure every single dragonfly fact has already been discovered, so there's no sense in working on them. Because there's probably everything's already known and then when I went to Grad School, it turns out my advisor. ME, straight and said. Are you kidding like? Nobody works dragging by Israeli is very few of us were contracted by rather. I should say so pretty much knows the sky's. The limit just knew what you're interested in it, so we've kind of slowly been working through the groups of dragonflies that are out there and trying to uncover their evolutionary history and each time we do that. It's exciting because you get to figure out their morphology year. There's one dragonfly disperses in has the whole world as its population. We've found out that it migrates we. We confirmed with genetics. migrates across the. The Globe and working on that was really exciting, but I kind of think I mean any of the projects have been have been rewarding because it always by. How did you find out about that one? How did you find that? They were all over the globe? Because like so the dragonflies fly over the ocean. Yeah, and so, what is death right? So what is death for insects in general but dragonflies? You know they have no tolerance to salt water, fresh water insects so you know. I got interested in it because I was studying. dragonflies and I got to go on a couple of collecting trips in every time I went somewhere. I caught this thing. I am African American and I'd never been to the continent of Africa before, and there was a worldwide dragonfly meeting there in the media and I was like so site you know for the culture to get to go and like catch African dragonflies. My hair is my people on this continent. And then the person that I caught was head Talla this thing this global wanderer, the I could get in New Jersey like in my driveway. How that's Oh? My Gosh, it's funny and then when I went to Australia. That was also the first dragged on private caught, and so then I just started making. Why is this everywhere and because it's so common? People had overlooked. I think because things that are really common. Aren't that exciting? Maybe the study, but actually the fact that it's so communist because it Kinda, bessis exciting thing and people had talked about it in the past you know people had written about it in the Mid Twentieth Century and people who lived in India, and in the mouth he had noticed that huge swarms of them would kind of show up at certain periods of time in the year but it was really fun to use genetics. Trying to confirm that because in order for jeans to be Shared Naughty bits have to. Track right like you have to share genetic information, somehow which means you have to be close enough to act on that in your detailing honey, yes? Yes because the ingredients amounts pass along the ingredients They have to be really close together, which means that the genetics kind of confirmed that whether we got them in south, America, or in Japan or in West Africa Australia. They were kind of sharing the same genetic pattern. You all of those. Pantelic dragonflies have the same genetic pattern. Yeah, and we just had a new a new paper on this, but we actually collaborated with a with a colleague in Canada where we looked at their. The wings of dragonflies are formed while they're in the water, but they're all just kind of crippled up in the in the nymph in the skin, and then when they emerge. than the wings kind of stretch out, and you see like a typical jacker by, but you can look at the dragonfly wing, and you can see where the origin was of that draft, because the hydrogen that's in the wings is from the H. Two O. in which they were maybe. You can see whether or not the guy that you caught whether it was born in that region or not, because the hydrogen actually weighs slightly different amounts depending on which part of the world you're in so anyways, we did the study and it turns out. Almost all the dragonflies tested were born in a different location than where we caught them, which means they are giving their moving? How they do it on planes, they just literally fly over the ocean. Do they hitch a ride? What is it I think they I mean they are just really good at taking advantage of wind, so they're not like butterflies flapping constantly. Glide you know they're? They're very very hip. Just kinda glide on the air and just coast you know over over the ocean from land, nasty landmass from rainy seasons rainy season. which I think is so neat. Okay boy, I think I interrupted you before I didn't mean to so what so you're studying? You're saying in the like. How did you start studying dragonflies? When you're adviser was like wait. No, no one said he's this. Like where were you? Were you in college studying? And analogy or were you why I wanted to do? Marine biology but I went to the university and I got turned onto insects and I. Loved it, and then this woman out bench. She had a project in Costa. Rica and she invited me to be her research assistant, so went to Costa. Rica and she worked on Damsel flies, and that was when I I sort of thought Oh. This would be so cool work on, but it's probably already done. You know that was kind of. Attitude and then I went to school to do biocontrol like to do crop management pass management because I thought well. You know we need to secure humans food crops. We need that everybody will be a human service. It'd be great society. There's always jobs in integrated pest management. degrade critical into had gone to university to Grad school to do that. and Ben I around that time I was like I. Just don't WanNa do this. Is Buzzer me I'd rather work on dragonflies, and luckily a with able to find an adviser there who was who work on dragonflies? And he was really encouraging Mike May and he said like he was one of the girl. No is a ton of unanswered questions for Dagenham fight, so you study them then that's what I did though it with your because it's like cockroaches, Damsel flies dragonflies, and then why can't remember the foreman? Termites what like? What are the ones that are like? Has Summer like cockroaches are typically not social bees. We learned on. How can we be less route to be like are super social, so then like. Hornets are those same social. Those have a colony. Yeah, there and then. I guess just like the ones that you study like which ones are social, which ones are like? Don't mess with me. I don't have any friends. DRAGONFLIES are Domi Alex your face 'cause they'll. They'll cannibalize other rabbis. They don't care at all. They will just eat anything every since they're lions, the lions of the air. Then cockroaches are mostly like not social but there is a group that like a sub social roads that lives in woods. And it kind of has overlapping generations, but it's not really. Technically Socialist just sub social. And then they were termites, and those are the only ones I study that are truly social, so they have kings, and Queens and workers ammend soldiers, but you learned about bees and their social for very different reasons, so the reason why termites you think the reason why they're social is because they consume cellulose. They consume what I'm. What products? But. They can't digest it, so they have to have these endo. Symbionese living their Hind Gut, breakdown this audience for them. So they would be like eating eating eating and not being able to get any nutrition. Unless you have these little things living in your vet, but every time they won't remember. We talked about like it rips your outlining out. Every time they moult, they lose that staff in their gut that just their food for them, so they have to recolonize. There was some way, but they don't have access to just random probiotic stores right so what they do is they go up to their nest mates, and they drink anal secretions It's called practice ultra flexes and they. Basically just imbibe this anal Jews from an estimate to re colonize their the flora and fauna that live in their gut so that way they can digest their food, so it wouldn't work if that was your strategy. If you weren't close to another termite, because you could mole and just be by yourself, and then Oh shit like you can't Get your. You know you're not going to be able to. It is food, so we think. Think that that made you one of the reasons that has driven them to have social behavior is this kind of need to kind of recolonize their got I mean there could be other reasons, too, and also they tend to overlap their inside of you know a park or whatever but certainly their diet and that need to their microbiome. Kinda sorted in order for them to get nutrition from their food. That's a big driver, so. Then what about the Damsel flies those those Killa Killa friend to or or those friendly with each other now they will they bay so as juveniles in the water, dragonflies and dams. If is actually eat vertebrates, they'll eat tadpoles. They'll eat fish small fish. They don't care. They will eat anything. as adults you know they eat all sorts of other insects to eat each other and there's even like a couple of photos where it shows some of the larger dragonflies that actually taken down a Hummingbird I've never seen that myself, but some people say that those photos are real. So they I mean they're. They're good at catching things in their their good eating things. They have these mouth. Parts are kind of doing map for its latest rebel. You know, bring the food in Poop it out the back you know at the end. That was actually my first job was looking the woman who I went to custody with I was looking at Hoop. I look at the Damn Flight POOP and tried to figure out what they were eating. Where was the PU? Well Jonathan sometimes you'd have dams of site poop. Do is it on trees or something, or did you just find on the ground or was? She worked on a specific kind that lives with with a juvenile stage lives in. Ramilia which is like a type of plant pineapples over Melia so not spiking at the top of. Water collects in between those leaves in Philly in the water. And so she was collecting the water in the poop was in the water. So what is the bucking nastiest bucking thing? You have ever seen studying bugs like what is like the? Have you just ever, but are you a scientist, so you don't get grossed out, but if you weren't a scientists like if you didn't have like your doctor like. Like. Like your pre, Dr Professionals Unlike win is like your like your inner child did like. fucking nasty, or is that never happened? No I'd say it happens all the time. I haven't all the time, so there's. A group of US I think out there who are entomologists who carry a secret shame because we actually are disgusted by members of insects and I'm one of them so I i. appreciate bedbugs so much I think they're fascinating. They have traumatic insemination. The males have a penis. Nice job, the female like very very interesting, but whenever I have seen one I feel like skin is crawling in, feel it. She and tone enjoy it and I have friends who have colonies has colonies feeds on his I'm I'm so impressed by him, but for me I just can't be around. Commend is house well now because of Covid. Yes, but normally he keeps them at. At the American museum and they're fine, and he is. He does always interesting work with their behavior. It's so cool and the scientists appreciate it, but as social you'll sick to my stomach or by bug social. Nope, how you said they just end up the skating job the girls. I can't even talk about our I'll be. I'll be talking about bedbugs for eighteen thousand dollars so so Babbel's earth. Have you ever seen something when you were like out like in the field doing stuff that was like super, gross or disgusting well I. Shouldn't say this because it's GonNa make it seem like I'm actually scared all the time because I do have another one. So you, you know. Whatever reason I kind of have a little bit of a bugaboo about Scorpions. They're not my favorite Iraq in imagine why their favorite records I know people who work on them, and they're really cool, but one time it was actually that first time I went to college with with Dan, and we were cutting down a Melia that was up in a tree solutions for cutting like this, and it was above my head and we've done this. This a bunch of times when we were always worried. That may be sneak inside, so we kind of rattled it a bit in no snake came out visit snake snake years. It comes out right away, so we're cutting these down like with his saw above my head, and she was just standing behind me, and she goes Jessica above you and I'm a cab. Looking right, but I don't see it as she's like. No, no, like like above you this discrepancies. I swear. There was like thirteen or fourteen Scorpions just came piling out of this. Falling all over me and I draw them. Amelia and I screamed and I thought like this I'm GonNa. Get sent a bunch of times I. Don't know what Scorpions these. Maybe there's insurance. I don't know what kind the are and I felt I felt bad. I still feel bad. What myself that I reacted that way, but honestly 'cause weather time I saw they were. They were pouring out of top me like your eyes are like focusing you see this kind of falling knew I. Don't know my hair's curly house ago. They're going to be all up for me. You know I didn't what you do. Did you pick any off? Did you get stung? Did they all just kind of bounce off? You see this is where I end up looking kind of foolish right, because of course it's. It's not like I got stung and I was fine and I took them off me. I think I had a Diane helped me. She never have just flicking them off me. I jumped up and down a bunch of times I ran around in circles, a bunch of times, crazy person, and then, and then that was it. I didn't get down at all so in the end I. Guess Maybe the Messages Scorpions. Aren't that bad? But for some reason even why seek about it? My stomach just goes nuts just making that. I. Think that's just so humans. There is like a psychology like all the do etymology ever study. Why is it that humans are just kind of naturally scared about bugs? Like what is that creepy crawly thing that we get when we think about him? Yeah, well, there's a woman Vanessa. She's at records in. She has a whole a psychologist and she she. She Studies. She brings babies in, and she exposes them to Scorpions or snakes, or whatever to see like when it is, and it's a learned behavior usually from from childhood, the you learn to be afraid of of insects and sisterly born with an inherent dislike of them so I don't know I might I sent him was my first full sentence was idol like nate? For snakes. I was really scared of snakes Blair. It was so disappointed. I I'm sorry, I guess I didn't realize that that scientists get disappointed in themselves in other people who would learn about things that they get grossed out by scary animals, but I guess that's more of the psychology of. Why do we think that's scary and I. I think that is a really interesting thing to think about. Like. Why do we have certain I I? Just that's not really a question I. Guess it's just interesting, so this is yogi recess. We finally made it. Also I just have to say like you're really just so incredible at I. Hope that this makes anyone else. Listening that is inspired by insects or wants to learn more in late chase their passions that you can have a really thriving career where you can do just that really like you know. And I think all there's just so many fields that are just so cool and so full of. Knowledge to be had that. We just don't even know about so I think that's so cool, but. By no question, it's your Yogi recess a MS or anything that we would be remissed to not mention about cicadas or Insects or or You. Or anything that you WANNA hit on that. We didn't get ahead on. It's your the floor is yours? Oh, that's exciting personal. Thank you for saying such. Nice things. I do think that. There should we should make more room for for different types of people in science. I think it's really cool to get you know I was said to my kids like. Oh, I'm worried with it for. A real square like I'm not a fun person and I do a bad rap for entomologists in my kids were like I'm who wouldn't think you're a square. You're of course, square all entomologist. Even my kids safe bed so hopefully. I can I can. I did a good rep for entomology, so the only other thing I think that's kind of cool about that we didn't talk about. That I feel like I would be remiss to not mention. Is that I'm? Males have to penises so unlike all the other insects that we've talked about you know. Male dragonflies actually have a secondary set of Genitalia at kind of near where their naval would be if you're between them in the proportion of human and so they do indirect sperm transfer like males basically. Have this, they Jackie late into the second peanuts, and then they use that second peanuts transfer the ingredients that the sperm to the female, and that's just so remarkable that they do that and. They also you know females can store sperm, so she makes multiple times, and then she can choose which sperm she uses so males don't want that right. They WanNa make sure that their sperm is what she uses. The fertilizer eggs, so the secondary peanuts is actually like little spoon, and it scrapes out the previous male's sperm, and then they deliver their own sperm so I mean when you pick dragging bison dams. Dams if I think that's what got me so interested in working with them, was this reproductive race right like females have all to store sperm, so they could make a choice over which male sperm the US within males of all this sills spoon to scrape out the previous male sperm, and so it's kind of like long term fight over who gets control. You know the genes that are used for this. For Mating so Kim, the girls conveyor about sperm like be scooped up once the boys secondary penis can't scoop it out or can. Scoop out the previous person sperm. It can always scoop it out and some heads. It looks like a little spoons, and hence it looks like a claw, and hence it looked like like like a spot can or something. and. They do it for like twenty minutes. I mean sometimes they're scraping for a very very long time and in the actual. ejaculation is much shorter, so but people still have. They don't always great at all of the sperm. Sometimes they also just displays US firms that just kind of porch, like with a ramming rod kind of pushed the sperm deep inside so that way. It's less likely that she'll use. It but I think that you know some some females are able to still make some type of choice over which sperm these as I think. It was last in first out kind of model, but That's not true that they're still. Females are able to choose as their strategy which makes sense right. She should be able to use whatever sperm. Is GonNa make her offspring the most fit that should be selected for by natural selection so. Dodger Jessica, where I am so grateful for your time I, feel like I learned so many things I just. Thank you so much this episode. Thank you, so thank you for having me. You've been listening to getting curious with me Jonathan. My guest this week was Dr. Jessica wear an associate curator at the American Museum of Natural History New York and an associate professor at the Richard Gilder graduates will she's also vp elect of the intimacy, logical society of America and the President of the worldwide dragonfly association. You'll find links to her work. In the episode. Description of whatever you're listening to the show on our theme. Music is freak by Quin thank you so much for letting us it. Have you enjoyed? Our Show introduced upright, and please show them how to subscribe. Follow US Instagram, twitter at curious with. Our socials are running curated by emily. bombeck getting curious produced by me. Erica ago Emily Bosick is Chelsea Jacobson and Colin Anderson.
Smithsonian's surprisingly Australian exhibit
"Well for museums around the world the Smithsonian brand in Washington. DC is considered the gold standard five million visitors stroll through the Carlos of the museum team of national of natural history every year one of them is the ABC's north. America correspondent David Lipson who recently stumbled upon a surprisingly Australian Ralian exhibit on a recent New York Times list of fifty two places around the world to go in twenty twenty Washington. DC came in at number one on that may come as a surprise to those who describe it as Canberra on steroids. Not Me all the sights and the newly buzzing nightlife shore but for me me. The museums run by the Smithsonian Institute of the clincher. The air and Space Museum Museum of Natural History Museum of National History Street to name a few all full of wonder and free thanks to an Englishman James Smithson who died almost two hundred years ago leaving behind a giant pile of money. Mike Lawrence is the Australian director for exhibits the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History visit and had never been to the United States So it was he who gave his inheritance to our government Back in the early years of the Nineteenth Century for the increase and diffusion of knowledge. it was fairly vague bequest. Our Congress debated for months and years. Did that mean to start a university city in fact even wants his own was founded. Nobody was entirely sure. What are broader mission was But it gave us the wherewithal to than Both sponsor expeditions Sponsor searches for specimens to sponsor scientists themselves and then to put some of our wonders on displays so so those displays today is a new exhibit uniquely Australian Sir Joseph Banks and triple team scientists and illustrators. That's a snippet from multi-screen immersive video show. That guides the museum go through the journey of the endeavor as it sailed into a body of water now known as botany bay you in April seventeen seventy I think banks felt like it was all his Christmases had come at once. The creative director of the exhibit is Cacique. You see maps that that for this palpable. This monster still on the map. They say I've never seen before and they're just thinking. Wow this. Is this incredible. This is so other worldly as you walk out from. The video showed slightly dazzled there sits a small somewhat unremarkable. Remarkable glass cabinet that took me by surprise inside a few drawings and a small bank Zia Branch and flower snatched from the Bush two hundred and fifty years ago and still perfectly preserved discovered by chance in the Smithsonian archives. What what was your reaction when you heard? was that specimen this in this very I couldn't believe it because you know the embassy staff brought down here to talk to you the Smithsonian and they said we've got Collections of plants from banks as well collection. I'm thinking really. That's just incredible tossed Marc Lawrence from the Smithsonian. How specimen came to be here in America? Well that's a mystery and I'd like to do some more investigation of it. Our guests is is just talking. To one of the curator's it was that so much of this came back to Britain and I imagine that because perhaps because of smithson coming from the UK and then as as the Smithsonian was sort of growing its collections. Probably made an appeal to collectors and Might have been a swap. Maybe we sent the Brits something thing in got something back either way. It's out of the volt and on full display now on the often. Feels like the poor stepchild here because it's not as dramatic as dinosaur bones or fish in pickle jars or something of that sort. They tend to be sort of. Did Dryden desiccated things and so to bring them To remind people oh of the kind of the beauty and the wonder and the enormous variety. I think it'll be just a delight for audiences just as it was for Joseph banks one of the original foreign correspondence respondents. That was the north. America correspondent David Lipson.
Ep. 251 - A Florida Moth Keeping Invasive Species in Check
"The like more infants of plants each month. Well you're in luck in defense. Plants is now offering bonus mini episodes over at our patriot. Page find out how you can gain access to this bonus. This botanical content had on over Patriot dot com slash in defense plants and consider becoming a patron and as always thank you for your continued support of independent plans. Together we are helping care plant Around the world one episode at a time. Hello everyone and welcome to the indefens- plans. podcast the official PODCAST BROADCAST OF INDEFENSIBLE PLANTS DOT COM. What's up this is your hose met welcome to the show? How's everyone doing this week today? We're talking about a change in many news. This is not a reference to any sort of restaurant that I liked but actually a species of moth native to Florida joining us to talk about. This is Dr Andrew Surkov. He's the collections. Actions Coordinator the McGuire Center for Lebed doctor in biodiversity at the Florida Museum of Natural History and among other things. He's studying interesting relationship between a moth a couple full of native species and some invasive plant species. The moth in question is the Bella moth and I can't think of a better common name for that. It is a beautiful little species and the larva feed on members of the PEA family in the genus crowed. Alaria now Florida has its own native species of Crow area and as we learned in last week's podcast Doug Lamey the vast majority of insects are specialized at some point on specific host plants. And this isn't really a case of these specialization. But rather other eight jump to an invasive hosts in the same genus alongside the native Cronulla area in Florida there are many invasive or naturalized species. She's and thanks to the fact that the law of the Belov like to eat such plants. They're actually keeping these invasive species in check it's a really interesting. Ecological scenario and Dr Surkov is a busy trying to understand it in more detail. So let's just jump right in without further ado. Here's my conversation with Dr Surkov. I hope you enjoy all right. Dr Andrew Surkov thank you so much for coming on the PODCAST. How about we start off with a little bit about who you are and what it is you do Well I'm collections coordinator at the McGuire Center Dope today and by diversity and the Florida. The Museum of natural. He's studying McGuire center was built about fifteen years ago to house one of the largest collections of butterflies and moths in the world. And the this is the only facility of its kind dedicated to studying a single older of inserts succe- so we have several million specimens and else we have a live exhibits of butterflies tropical butterflies but recalled bullet butterfly rainforest though. This is a very exciting place to Brooke. Yeah having visited once before it is is a fantastic center and your exhibits are exquisite. I highly recommend everyone go and check it out if they get the opportunity. But where did you first become interested in lepidopterists doctrines was this always interest of yours. Or is it something you Kinda came to later in your scientific career I've thought of as many people in our profession do do as a child may be on six years old. I started collecting insects by ten. I you all the scientific names of butterflies flies on the the place where Lebed which is in Moscow and the I knew most of the professional and amateur doctorates awesome and then with time I made that into my profession. So that's the short story it's great and now for are those listening that might not recognize lepidopterists word. We are of course talking about butterflies. Moths the day shift in the night. Shift so to speak. Although there are probably exceptions is to both of those sides of it but when did you begin to start specializing. I mean what was sort of the trajectory once you realized you wanted to work with these organisms in particular vache stimulus diverse and insects of course The most diverse group of organisms on the planet So initially I got interested. Trusted all the insects Media lies the just too many home down so I had to focus first. I narrowed down two thousand lead the doctor and then I realized well one hundred and sixty thousand described species of butterflies. Moths best plants to there. So so I've worked mostly reversal though I had Some interest in ave six professional interests embarrassing towards. It's for example who attack butterflies and moths so I have slept with them. That specialization. That's fantastic and I'm sure there's endless amounts. We could possibly talk about but in thinking about you know more recent research of yours and things you've been working on on lately you were kind of at the interface between Lebanon's n Mas in particular and their host plants. I mean you can't really talk about these organisms without bringing plants into the picture at some level correct absolutely so my interest in plants is all derived in but Sikua speeches off a butterfly or moth that feeds on it and so he simply became interested in interactions between the Bella moth youth that these are not six and the cut the ladder Orthodox plans because they present a fantastic model for understanding the complexities of interactions between host plants and the insects that feed on them And the specific species of moths. Bella moth has been very important in developing the field of chemical equality which is understanding the chemistry behind this interaction. That's fascinating and when you say the chemistry behind these interactions. What do you mean by that? And then we can kind of talk about why. The bill is a good system for studying this but I think most people think that butterflies moths as caterpillars. You just true on a plant heave as we do on Salads and get mutant south however that is not always the a case in fact in majority of cases there's a big complex interactions in the form of plans trying to defend themselves from Raum insects and insect strand to overcome that defense in the process. However sometimes in six developed a specialization that allows them to not on the over combine? Defenses over the plan. But they'll soon utilize the secondary plant compounds. The toxins full for their own. Biology and Bella. Moth is an exceptional example of this kind of interaction with Bella moth not only as caterpillars run out to Defeat the chemical defenses of their host plant but they also made their secondary plant compounds. The alkaloids of rapper box plants announced their own defense against predators and also they convert this chemicals into Fairmont's that they use for their intra facility communication meaning males appeal to females with the chemicals that they derive from the host plant. That is absolutely remarkable. End from an evolutionary standpoint. Your jaw has to hit the ground because like you said not only. Are they overcoming the defenses. They're using them for a variety of biological needs That's amazing to think about a plant trying to defend itself only to enter into this arms race this evolutionary visionary arms race with an organism net now absolutely requires it for his biology. Yes absolutely and if you think of a plant or or an insect as any presentative of its own kinds immediate family so to speak in this case we will talk about a genus. Genius may be of math and butterflies. You can see potential for specialization. Among plants and insects as it solved assault of this chemical warfare so there are about seven hundred species of rental box plans worldwide and the. There's a large number of mouth related to the Bella moth feed them them and Of course the excessively level and the defenses vary between this plants so what interests me is how this interaction and evolution within those groups plays out as a result of this warfare. Yeah fascinating questions to be thinking about and in your line of research I mean is there any indication education of how old this interaction might be if it's at the generic level with this. It must be something that's been happening for some time but we have any indication of when that might have started to sort of coalesce together if I had to guess. Broadly intensive means of years So the the crown nature of any genus of butterflies or moths. Oh plans has to be determined since we don't have very good fossil so hair records from the sounds as to Determined in the sort of Indiana way through building evolutionary nick tees and trying to analyze the rate of evolution of this organisms. And of course it's kind of a field that it quite debatable. Because we really don't know if a volusia happens in Bought some general of butterflies off. Aw evolving or diverging reviewing the jingles as long as thirty million years ago so that would be my I guess But suddenly New Orleans of years sure interesting things to think about their Just from sort of a detective story work but thinking about what these moths are doing is obviously involves some pretty interesting chemistry Howard. These criteria these rattled box plant defending themselves. What are these sorts of compounds? That the the These models have now evolved to depend on so closely this group of plans to rely on a group of compounds alkaloids loyd's I am specifically for rental books plants The main alkaloid is moniker to line. And the this is a compound found in many rental books plans But there are some other less known alkaloids Such as thick tabular line for example in some of the speeches and the way moths defend themselves us. They sequester all. Aw they collect those alkaloids as caterpillars and of course they defend themselves s caterpillars with those alkaloids but they also pass that this L. close to the next stage the pupil stage to adult stage and even to eggs So that is the sort of important part of their defense is not only being both to defend themselves as caterpillars is but also suggesting for defensive other stages amazing it is so cool to think that these organisms have through evolution. Russian figured out how to use the defense of a completely unrelated lineage of organisms in this case plants to defend and signal to one another. I mean I can understand why hi this would be such a fascinating field of science for you to be working in Yes oh Baseline search from reach beyond the stand. This interactions was done by one of the founders of Chemical Ecology in Cornell University. Tom Eisner where they maintained. The Bella. Moth in in Colon is and the conducted. All sorts of controlled experiments by being in Florida have a luxury of access to the populations of the Bella moth here in my own backyard and through a variety of different rental books plans so my interest roster is more what happens in nature. How do this moth evolved interactions with plants? And the one the reasons I use the word Vol- is because out. Fourteen speeches of Catholic area plans here in Florida. Fans have been interviews of us by a people for various reasons so we have actually good idea how long The mobile interactions been going on between the mosques and the plants while what a perfect system to be working in here but just back up for a second the important distinction you made there and again not to discredit any sort of lab work at all. But there is oftentimes a disconnect between what you can observe an artificial system like in a lab that you're controlling doing everything and probably not exposing them to normal cycles that would be exposed to outdoors using that framework to then go out into the field like you said in nature and see how this stuff actually playing out in the native range of the moths but also dealing with the introduction of other potential host plants. For this species there's A. There's a really important distinction to be made in the value of both sides of those work but to be able to really go outside and eventually studied this stuff in situ yes absolutely and for instance I can give you an example from my own work where I experimented with how how the moth develop on seeds of plants You move from reports that fed them versus leaves and seeds. It's very very beneficial for the development of course because they have on Youtube Anson them and of course calculus love also alkaloids. The thought might show better presented in seeds than the Nieves so Catholic lists temp to search out and destroy the seeds of Kurth lead their clancey When they get big enough and make holes in the Poulsen eat the seeds and the it showed that it was very beneficial official in the lab to the malls with seats? Moth came out larger and they developed foster however what I noticed is that takes depending on species of the host plant quite a long time for them to break through the port so what. I realized that the plants announced failed in the chemical warfare against moths. But than this thought. This mechanical warfare rarely two seeds into really tough pods and the caterpillars have to break through to get to the seeds and sometimes it takes them over an hour to just Scraping the surface of the ports in order to make the whole big enough and make their way into the port. And so when I tested just the same system but I gave some calculus pods that will open by me and others that are closed. It turns out that the lot of benefits for some of their glance Ra- lost for the calculators because it took them so much energy and so much time to break into the pods that up basically the lost all the time now now that would otherwise gain from feeding on seeds. Yeah I'm exhausted just thinking about the scenario but yet just to think of the trade offs in nuances that come about with evolution and like you said you're in a unique position down there because yes you do. Have these introduced species of Kroto area end. You have an idea of when that introduction happened so you can really use that as sort. Take time sequence to say. How're these caterpillars adapting or these MAS general adapting in the wild and so that has kind of been a major focus of yours since then correct? That is correct because listen to US plans they have different sinologist that means that they grow in different times than the native plants. They definitely have different Moore foliage sometimes very big plans with lots of codes and they can completely overrun any any habitat. They're growing compared to the native plans that out very modest plan so the moss benefited greatly as far as the population and Cincinnati. From all those introduced plans but at the same time. Chemistry of this traduced plants is different as well from the chemistry of native plants. So one of the quest obese questions is what happens to always chemical interactions that must have with plants Do they evolve as well delay there FAREMO's for example. Do they blow. glovas chemical defenses at seven so a lot of good questions to be asked there and the chemistry ones are the ones that stand out to me but I had never really thought about the phonology Legiti side of it in terms of emergence and seat availability and just food availability and how that might affect a moth that historically has been settled onto a couple apple species worth of their phonology that are probably closely time. So let's Kinda t some of these things apart from the chemistry perspective. What have you been finding well? One of the things that we found was that if we take some of the defense discharge from adult moth and running cage the moth immeditate that the mouth discharges this foaming liquid from behind his head and it's very nasty st tasting not the case Liquid and using the Predator bird or even the spider broke the mouth and the the mosque flies away. so by collecting was discharge analyzing its chemistry. And comparing airing it to the chemistry of plants on reach raise this moths. We found that Relation between chemical profiles of the off off and the plants So we could actually in a blind test Luca. The chemical profile of Moss and hypothesized is what clams they raised on or federal while that is remarkable but also really fascinating results when you're asking questions about pro evolution in arms races and so thinking about what you had mentioned earlier is how dependent these. Moths are on the chemistry of these plants. Both to defend themselves but also to signal to mates does that coincide with massive changes in population behavior in dynamics then definitely here in Las Florida than native plant completed in the fall is a very small plan. That's the girls in sort of sandy habitats proust from its roots. Earning the spring on March April. And that's when the moth begins to fly and begin to see caterpillars But that's his Nov.. The case at all rebe introduced plans that until US plants that produce use numerous seeds sprouted when the soil is saturated with water which is here round July August so we begin to see the moth in those habitats that thought dominated by exotic plants. We begin to see them in the fall. So wrath is one example example where the phonology of Mauve has changed of course density of the population has changed for Moss as well and the type of Tabin fats because the habitats that into US plants grow in a very different from wave native plants girl. Oh wow how and so anytime I hear these sorts of things I start thinking about population isolation and have you worked at all and trying to investigate how these moths raised seized on different species of criteria than interact with one another. Is that something. You're still trying to tease out. Yes we actually sequence to a number of genomes from the moth and multi found is a big complicated picture of operation of mosques in general and they found and throughout the new girl turns out that these moths migrate along and so when they destroy Laria in one place. They sort of migrate to another place and they have population structure definitely by this population. Structure does not called lost very long and I think is because of the ephemeral nature of those population sometimes The moth pitchy you too good at destroying all the seeds of their host land so sometimes I've seen patches of host plants that completely disappear as a result salt of moss activity but then not very far from that's lace in you. Population will emerge next year while that is pretty remarkable markle to think about especially from the plants perspective there it is trying to defend itself and then it not only gets into a big arms race with its potential burbot out of order but also his entire reproductive efforts sometimes staved off by the feeding of the moths offspring salutes. The in this case Acer Speak about the sort of applied side of things We can say this is a real success story. That hasn't been publicized widely when a native native insect kind of naturally became a very good control agents for you basic exotic plants because as I said some of the plants produce in two thousand seats each plan so Lance completely over on any particular habitats in Florida order. I've seen That's where s fis you can see this invasive cutler plan but then the mosque keep up pretty well with the destroying join with seeds and keeping plan some control. Jeez yeah talk about not publicizing something like this enough. I mean. We learn n ecology class or biology class often times the the success of invasive species is because our at least in part due to the fact that it's escaped its predators or herbivores in its native landscape by by coming to an area where it hasn't co evolved but just because there are relatives of Cronulla area on this continent and that these models have taken up shop at them. Yes you have this really interesting. In case where the host has changed or at least this species has jumped two different species within the genus curdle area And I think what's most interesting to me about that is you often think of specialists. Insects is kind of being stuck. You know we read about the specialist interactions in which you kind of have to plant certain plans to see these species show up now mind you. This is all within the same genus of host plant. But Yeah I think in terms of what you studying in an leapt adopter in ecology. General do see this happen a lot or is this kind of a really special case that you're observing. I don't think it's a particular special case. I think that host ships happen relatively oh too frequently in the course of vision. In fact I think that Host the sheets frequently lead to species because if you can imagine they accidentally coast shifts in the population can lead to change of chemistry just as we talked about Bella moth depending on the today productive in chemistry on the host plant. I can imagine that in other groups as well. This is what has been happening Bob. It just the field. That hasn't been studied very much. So I believe that most Just believes that allopathic sppreciation through isolation `isolation is the main mode of species in the of course says probably true for many vertebrates but for insects. Who are us? Oh dependent on their host plants and host plant chemistry. I host shift may be one of the modes of species. That just just hasn't been looked into enough. Yeah very interesting thoughts there in especially from people that are curious about the natural world like making observations or even see themselves going into science in general. That's a really good point to point out. There is oftentimes. These things are small. They're kind of OUTTA sight outta mind. I'm amazed by the amount of new species that are grabbed griped from Leaf minds so to speak in. Someone's backyard or just by looking around a part of the city. No one's looked at before but to think about all of these things that are going on out of sight outta mind and there's a lot of value out there for people going out making these observations. I know my partner. Sarah recently found a bunch of PUPA on her study species McBride Lia and Dan the the. Moths came out. She some town actually to your institution got them identified and it wasn't a new species of moth but it was the first time it had ever been recorded on that species. He's a mint. So there's so much room for discovery like this especially in the field of entomology and botany yes I absolutely agree and the their search surge groups Comes to mind Dan Jansen in Costa Rica where they go out and search plans for caterpillars invade year them through through an bar code resulting. DNA Barcode resulting adult butterflies mode. They found is that sometimes on the disguise of one van uptight Different species that hidden front biology different host plants association and even looking caterpillars Bob the resulting butterflies just luke identical or very similar and so a few years back then. Johnson published this paper hotel in the one where ray outlines ten species of beautiful butterfly nine signed. Genesis tapped. Is I think that In the stem different species grow old co occurring in the ultra small. Eddie Costa Aesthetic. That is amazing. So big shout out to the power of natural history. Observations combined with Scientific Ingraham in there is so much much yet to be discovered and and that has major conservation implications which we could you know talk about absurdum but in thinking about the system again going back to Kroll area and these Bella Moths you mentioned earlier in our conversation that there is a little bit of a trade off so when the plant certain chemical defenses. Don't seem to be deterring. You mentioned that those stiffened or toughened up pods. Ed's Ken slow. The caterpillars down waste a lot of their energy. I mean is there any indication that then comes on board. Even more strongly with these invasions is are these switches. Yes so what. The rigid we looked at three different plants. Wrong reach the cutlery. Feeding Mav Heuvel for the longest period of time. He shouldn't Africa. Could let it run sally to end the that's where this interaction originated originated mob between Moss and RAPA. Box Brown's the second one was local native to the four year How where this interaction is limited to the Bella moth and has been going on going for a long time and the second one was Spectaculars from Asia and this one had a very soft head car report cover so relooked at different says and what we found on that Caterpillar suddenly have easiest time going through Gets into the seeds of the Asian speeches and the hardest time breaking through through the plant fake copies which they toil the longest in Africa and here in Florida. It was somewhere in between. However there's another mold? Defense the the local clamp I think is implementing that his putting the seats Lee small pods and spreading those polls far far part so that any specific category not only has to work very hard to break through the port and get to the they also have too many times thanks and then the nitrogen contents of the seeds is not very high because they're full of water so basically a plant makes a Catholic calligraphy hard for those alkaloids incredible and this is that arms race part of the evolutionary story. Here the chemical defenses is worse circumvented by this group of Mas and now structural defenses are coming on board. That is amazing and I love the idea of just spreading out very very nutrient poor seeds over great space on a single plant that is from an evolutionary genetic perspective a genius strategy absolutely. I love working with the system and it proved to be actually excellent learning system. Elsa for the students The high school students and with on the Grad students at the university here and It is a great system to design at such project that can be done from which you can learn a lot about insect plant interactions within one semester. isky yeah that's a great in case to make here for these sorts of hands on learning experiences that are so vital to not only just supporting people's curiosity but getting people interested in familiar with how science it's plays out and this is why model systems are so important because not only are they really easy like you said or at least offer a lot of opportunities to do really good science on them. They're absolutely fascinating to think about from an ecological perspective and that's really what it comes down to at the end of the day is just introducing the world to ecological literacy literacy or at least an increasing it on some level and having systems that can be eloquent enough in and talked about in a way that is easy enough for people to understand. We really have to celebrate elaborate those in NB supporting them in all walks of science absolutely Thought of this. This is a beautiful mosque. So it's pretty the easy to get people attack to the system because by virtual being toxic predators through bribe bright red and black and white collars so that actually couch laws in making the system popular among students. John's maybe a little less compelling if it was a little brown off but still I think the proof in the pudding. The data speaks for itself out of curiosity how long have some of these. Invasive Crow area been in northern Florida about ended the years we in fact know the fairchild the Brag about talk bringing their one of the speeches and the introducing to his gardens have written records of those because hundred. CBS Ago people were much less sensitive as you can imagine to introducing things to floor. It was a great place to grow exotic plan so people who go on tours of collective systems of the world finding testing plans and bring them in but also some of the species are still grown commercially. For example some camp that Ledge said is still grown as a cover crop for green manure and has some potentials fiber as biofuel restore so we probably can date almost every major introduction But one that comes to mind is about nine nights comets while I mean that's again that is so important to have that information because he's here we have a century's worth of evolution occurring. And you know that you don't have to speculate about that. That is so important to have in these sorts of studies and from the mosque perspective. I'm guessing these last one hundred years of seeing an increase in its population. Just because there's now more species on the landscape over a wider time of the year you're and because of the disturbance in the monoculture status that some of these species can maintain often much higher abundance than what have naturally occurred. Had it just been the native curdle turtle area absolutely. I think the moth is the primary. been the whole interaction. I think they have bre. We don't know of course for sure but it's my guess that they were not very common moth. Judging by the distributional then eighteen discolsed one nice and so it has become amazingly obvious why this is such an interesting and consuming system to be working in. I mean there's so so many questions to be asked here but what is in the media future for you. I mean what are some of the next steps. You're taking with this research in. What kind of questions are you generating while of the things things that the Looking to is a how predators react to change of chemistry of a Mauve so we have been playing with some predators like jumping spiders for example and looking at how they react to the moths having different chemistry and because jumping spiders can overcome some of the defenses of their prey so this is one of the areas we looked at another. India is Actually what I mentioned already is appeal. Latian structure the Bella moth that quite berry about throughout their reign and show and they arrange if you take two sub species that are currently described goes from Argentina and they copulate sleep all the way to Canada during the summer occupying available habitats. An coach Larry by tropical moths large and so some bay interesting system from the population dynamics and from just basically microbe Aleutian on population level. So so we are looking at genetic of the boss and the way ability of the rink patents also offers an excellent model for or understanding. How the pattern forms in general in different species of butterflies moths so this a three main air is vets? I'm currency interested. That's great and this is why I love ecology so much is because the observation that these moths were. We're feeding on a different species of has opened up so many doors into evolution into Predator recognition into evolutionary arms races. I mean there's just endless questions to be asked just based on this one system and then you multiply that over. How many different interactions we have between any sort of organism in the plant community? They Ha you have picked a fascinating Rome of discovery to be working. Yes every time you answer one question. Tam New Pop Copa. So that is one of the beauties and the frustrations of our professional is that inquiry. Never ends in fact the number of research. Such projects multiplies well. At least you're never starved for ideas that something to say at least absolutely so if people want to find out more about your work with Bellona's incurred Alaria and just find out more about where you work at near research. In general handyman. They go looking in finding more about you well. One of the ways is to visit Florida. The Museum of Natural History website. you can search Bella Mov for example samples And you'll find some of the publications. They're both popular and of course One is always wiz. Welcome to visit our center. Google scholar is a good place to start if one wants to get into this far as science and I'm just the basically search keywords and Going success nature find the rental box plants and look for the moth flying around around and the caterpillars feeding them so fantastic and put a ball of the relevant links in the shown as this episode but Dr Circa thank you so much for introducing us to this incredible system and I think I speak for everyone listening when I say keep it up. You are discovering so many important things about the natural world by looking at these beautiful organisms in the way they interact. Thank you very much for having me on your podcast. Of course we'll have to get you back on to talk more about moths and plants. Thank you all right. Have a great day all right. That wraps up another fascinating conversation. Thank Dr Surkov for taking time out of his busy schedule to talk with us but it gives me hope that even when we're messing things up with environmental issues like invasive species that something can be done and that may be nature. has some solutions to the problems were created as always always go. Check the show notes for this episode. I put all of the relevant links up there but thank you for listening. Make sure you're following us on twitter instagram and facebook. And if you're looking to support support this podcasting keep it running from week to week. Consider checking out our patriotic kickbacks head on over to Patriotdepot DOT COM slash indefensible plans to learn more and I have a special special couple of shoutouts to the latest producers on our show. Big Shot up to Kaley an runaway goldfish. Both of them went over to Patriot and decided to support the podcast at the producer credit level which gets them access to everything including all of those bonus episodes. 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Episode 95: Which museum would win in a fight?
"The food for was what if we had nine lives blooded pits ups or if money through on trees if redid nappy back then absurd absurd. Medical everybody and welcome to absurd hypotheticals. The show where we overthink dumb questions. So you don't have to. I'm your host markets later and I'm joined here today by Chris. E and Ben Storms. Say Hi guys. Hey Chris Hey I'm Ben guys. I'm excited for today. Because we're ripping off a movie. That's how we are going to be good for well past. That movie is night at the museum so our question today is which museum would win in a fight. So basically how we're GONNA do. This is not museum style the exhibits in your museum that you chosen come to life and you send that museum army to our good old battlegrounds at Central Park. And they're going to figure out. Which Museum has the best stuff to win in a fight? Yeah because we've done fight episodes in the in the past in usually it's like superpowers or abilities of characters. Usually it makes more sense than this. Yeah usually makes more sense but instead I guess the abilities are just exhibits that we have well. I mean we've gotten our abilities from the random superpower wicky so they may not necessarily make sense in the past but basically you have an exhibit if you have you know models or skeletons or I guess live exhibits to think. There's some some creative liberties that we can take with like how these exhibits come to life right. Basically it's like how I think the movie would interpret this Right so I'll start because I want one from music from the movie. Which is the American Museum of Natural History? Really is specifically that one. Yeah specifically that one. I didn't know that never actually side also say a moment where I didn't either and I had a moment where I couldn't remember. It was Ben Store or Nicholas Cage Ziam and I really wish Nicholas Cage Museum. I would watch the hell out of that movie. National Treasure Neither Museum Crossover. Yeah coming soon. Two theaters near you. Once they hear about it here on this podcast so one thing. I realized I was researching this the be careful about the name of your museum when Kind Kinda generic like the Museum of Natural History because I definitely had a bunch of stuff written down. That was for the Wrong Museum of Natural History. This whole thing for Dippy the caucus. Which is a brontosaurus skeleton? That is in the Museum of Natural History in London. I also learned that. It's actually not a real skeleton. It's a cast of skeleton in Pittsburgh without kind of interesting that they copy pasted it into their museum but then what I liked about. It was just like you know. It's like the big centerpiece in their main hall. Because obviously is huge. And they're like yeah. We're replacing this with a with a blue L. Skelton which is fine that we purchased for two hundred and fifty pounds in eighteen ninety. That checks out better. I was like two hundred fifty pounds like that's a donation right like just like and then eighteen ninety and I guess it's just they had a big blue whale skeleton like stored for one hundred and thirty years and now it's time to break out this dusty old bad boy said this guy up. How do you? How do you store that crates? I think they groom big imagining. It was put together because you have to put together man. I wish I had watched one of those specials where they show how the museums actually store all their things because like only like a fraction of what a museum has actually ever on display like the conservation efforts. There's like that's like the bulk of it. It's just that scene from the end Nova Lost Ark Right Like a giant warehouse full crates. Yeah like that. I think I don't know I didn't watch the special so I don't actually have a good idea of what they do all their shit. That's on display. But I think we all use what was on display for our answers. So what's in our actual natural history museum correct one after I delete build the bad stuff. First and foremost I think. Think of is dinosaur skeletons and we got. Luckily the big old he wrecks the biggest bats dinosaur forty feet long fun fact about t rex's just to Kinda give general value. How strongly are I like that? In a little bit I watched. They referred to t REX's as probably stealth predators which seems a pretty impressive. That is forty feet long. And you know it's just giant feet and mammoth giant feet and mouth. Rex Plus a tail. Not so much in the arms department but one thing I did learn that is I think a good metric is the teeth. The T rex are actually fairly stout and blunt because they don't so much as biped through things as much as they bit things so hard their prey with literally explode. That's amazing so that's that's one started with three foot exploded. Mouth t rex skeleton among just a plethora of other dinosaur skeletons we got the which is like a Brontosaurus but smaller We had the STEGOSAURUS. Triceratops we got the Veloce Raptors. We got like half a dozen other ones. I don't I couldn't remember and didn't care about But their biggest dinosaur skeleton is literally just called the Titanic Sore. It is a one hundred. Twelve foot long sorrow pod. Looks like a Brontosaurus but is bigger than abroad disorders. It is the biggest land animal every one that Ben covered in our dinosaur episode. Or not you trying the dreadnought right. Yes which is very similar inside. The titanic sore but had cool name so yeah. I was like I knew it was a cool name. I don't think it was that cool name. Though so dinosaur skeletons out the Wazoo and currently exhibiting at the Museum Natural History is the exhibit t rex the ultimate Predator so addition to the skeleton. They have a life size model of what the T. Rex would have looked like skin and bones and all and also a whole little family form to show is development cycle. So there's a four year. Old T rex like a young so. I have all the skeletons. Plus live family t rex. So you guys are GonNa have to deal with but does whereas all they have. They got some other stuff. One of the most famous ones is. Of course they have a giant Blue Whale A LIFE-SIZE BLUE WHALE MODEL. That's hanging from the ceiling in there. ocean display areas. Is that going to be useful in our our venue down here is ninety four feet long but not super useful even in the water. Because they also have a model of a giant squid that's fighting a sperm whale. The sperm whale is just ahead from was more dangerous world. Blue Whale because it's predatory but it's just the head of it so I'm not counting that but the giant squid is all there so if doing water combat I think the giants squids better than the Blue Whale. Generally we did. We say that we're in central park yet. Did we not know we haven't so I guess setting the State? I'm not I think I did mention it. In any case we're in touch with all our fight episodes. We like to stage. Our fights in central park conveniently. My Museum is right across the street from it. That's not why we chose it. It's just seems to have the perfect mix of like land water rocks and you know trees and buildings around it. I guess it just a nice battleground if we found so. That's where we're eventually going to be fighting art museums but beyond that. There's this Infinite Exhibit Museum. There's literally I have Lions and Tigers and bears an offense and bison and primates of all types. I got some more skeletons in their advanced mammals with what they call the exhibit But there I got the mammoth the mastodon and the giant ground sloth who giant crowns law which doesn't sound that intimidating until you're actually twenty feet tall and then it's just like Oh that's if you just skill things up big enough kinda crazy is says it. Just a normal swath. That's twenty feet tall basically. Yes if it's the one I'm thinking if they actually have one at one of the museums where Harvard and it's terrifying it's scary looking google giant ground sloth will fuck you up slowly and the last thing maybe. I don't know slow it would be. I think it was more of a normal speed animal compared to our slots that we have now the last Gallatin. I think I'm GONNA mention here. Is I just thought it was fun? Because it will pair well with Some of the human exhibits is the stages of evolutionary horses. So they had like a kind of timescale of Horse. Hilton's from throughout history said like six different levels of evolution which I thought would be Kinda funny image of dislike these weird forces running down the street. So that's kind of the animals and the dinosaurs. We got some other stuff here too. I think the general of my forces is the giant statue of Teddy Roosevelt. That's out in front. You mean Robin Williams Williams. Yeah it looks like Teddy's about ten foot tall at least in the statute so he's the big one but then you're also gonna need you lieutenants and luckily there's a whole exhibition hall. Teddy Roosevelt In all different stages of life so we got a least four more Teddy Roosevelt's go round to lead forces. I don't know how handy they will be compared to the dinosaurs. Enlisted here we also have a lot of human exhibits of human through history plan with an Indians Africans Pacific Islanders Asian Central Americans etc etc etc. Some less useful exhibits the the minerals exhibits all of gems. Almost we introduce some. You know funding your armies overtime type scenarios. I don't think I'm going to be worrying about those. So basically what I have is just the most giant animal army spearheaded by giant dinosaur skeletons and led by Teddy Roosevelt. The Teddy Roosevelt's blessing have here. Is the last exhibit that has not to do with animals or people or dinosaurs or rocks is the space part of the museum. I forget what? It's called up ahead the planetarium the Hayden Hayden something. The big thing is the Hayden sphere so basically this huge room and in the middle of the room is big sphere. That is there. I Max Theater like Three D. Planetarium Imax theatre. But what they did is they. Turn the outside of it into an exhibit and it's basically the Colt size scales the universe and the way a bit works as as Big Grace. Fear the middle and then as you walk around the hallways around. They'll have models of different things and be like. Hey if this is you know the earth the fear that you're looking at the middle of this eighty seven foot diameter sphere is what the size of the sun and so while the hidden sphere itself. The beginning. Football isn't anything consistent. Not using it as a as a as a fighting feature because it's not really anything except a little big circle. Object the things around it would represent what they are and I was like. Oh they fucked up because one of the little models about the size of the baseball is a son so it was like. Hey let's find out what happens if you have a a baseball side son in your hand and what. That's going to do to the math here so I just went real basic. 'cause there's a million ways you you can try and convert son into baseball but I did it by volume so if you take the volume of the sun energy output and divide that by the volume ratio of it to a baseball. That baseball baseball is going to produce point. Zero zero zero five watts of energy. Which would be like the equivalent of taking straight hit of moonlight to the face? So out I got this year to measurement I was like Oh my God what am I gonNa? Five point zero zero zero five watts. It turns out this comes up when people ask why solar panels don't work off moonlight and because that's how much energy square meter produces so if you are by an open window at nighttime that that light exposure is going to be the equivalent of was radiating off this Little baseball son. That said it would be very very hot too. Don't touch it. It's just not going to like blow up everything immediately. But that's kind of what I got. The baseline heared set pretty high bar bar. Yeah Chris what was what did you pick so I picked the Museum of Science in Boston. 'cause all of us are from Boston and I'm sure I know I've been there. I've I'm sure both view of two. Yep I have it's cool. It is a museum so I started out by looking at some of the more typical staff stuff that up. Marcus has in his museum so I did have some dinosaurs. Probably not as many as you. But I had They had to displays of triceratops skeletons and then they have Like a full body T. Rex inside like free flesh and bones and they also have one outside. So there's two t rex us there so dinosaurs are pretty good. I guess not compared to you but still pretty good. I mean we we have. We have the the two big T rex is from. Both of our sides may counter each other. Cancel each other out. But you have a t rex family so I don't know by now you're not fighting for your four year. Old T rex who is admittedly still big but not quite as And there was a some sort of flying dinosaur and Mary but I didn't. I couldn't figure out what kind of dinosaur was. 'cause there's no lake. I was on my information on like zoomed in Google maps. Things is their website. Wasn't that great but Y- There's some sort of flying dinosaur and they're two So those are the dinosaurs and then I also had animals. There's like whole animal section and there are a lot of animals not all of them are useful for fights but I had the typical. I had lions tigers. Embarrassed like you Ben. What he didn't say. Oh my also confused. While you're waiting you know I knew one hundred percent he was looking for. They are also cougars and Fox's Cheetahs wolves leopards booths and then they had some some birds do that falcons and als- stuff like that and then there is one one model of I guess. They have like a giant grasshopper. So the grasshoppers like he's like a five foot tall grasshopper and like ten foot long does just approximation but is really big grasshopper at really know that much about grasshoppers I think a big grasshopper would be scary. It would be scary effective. Probably not well. They jump right up. I think you'll be proportional. I think we we tackle how we how we scale up the BUG to. I know we've we've done before scaling up. Bugs doesn't really work right the way that muscles work. But I don't Know Yeah. I have a giant grasshopper. That's the main point. Salient point here is that I have. In addition dollars. Animals theory was like a hunting room. It was called the Kobe Trophy Room. I guess it was like a donation from a guy named Francis. Thomas Colby Her Thompson Colby Francis Thompson. Colby and he was like really big into hunting. I guess so. This room has like a bunch of animal heads which aren't really useful but also in this room there were guns in there. So governor useful Thurgood. They're mainly like hunting rifles so but but they are guns and then getting to somewhat some of the more like scientists stuff because this is a science museum. I mean the those animals are Scienc- stuff but they have like a live show in the Museum of science called just lightning exclamation point. And that's what it's called in this live demonstration. They have like a really big vander graph generator. Which is just like the way it works. I guess is these motor that does like motor inside that rubs against a rod in that like a charge on the surface of the generator and then they can like if they put a grounding rod next to it then they can like make lightning bolt. Shoot out of it. It's it's the big slyke. Donut shape metal thing. Stick that you've seen all the the show. Shoot lightning out. Yeah it's like a globe on a stick sort of and the one that they have is actually the world's largest Aaron slated one so it's a really big one looking a little more into vendor graph generators they tend to be Like it is really high voltage but they tend to be low current which usually means. It's not really that dangerous. I'm not entirely sure of. This is dangerous or not. I went to the show. It is dangerous. I don't know if it would straight out kill. You don't know how we feel. It is but being in that room and like hearing it. It's loud loud. It's loud and Spooky and they do take decent safety precautions. He they have like Metal Rod in front of the audience to that the electric goes to those instead the audience. And there's like they have a demonstration where there's a guy in a Faraday cage which is the cage like car surrounded and metal so that he stays in the cage and the lightning travels through the cage instead of him and the they like demonstrate how see works yes it a cage. This isn't a specific thing cage. Being struck by lightning is technically faraday much. Yeah yes that one's is dangerous and they also have a bunch of Tesla coils in there and I guess. Tesla coils are considered like generally more dangerous and vendor graph generators on. They're not as big as as the vendor graph that they have but they have like multiple TESLA COILS. So we have things that can shoot. Lightning bolts inner. Scary that way So that can be useful. There's also another live. Demonstration called super cold science where they demonstrated the effects of liquid nitrogen on different gases and other materials and things. So I figured I could probably use that in some sort of weapon or something. I don't know exactly how I'm GONNA use it. But like liquid nitrogen seems like it'd be useful and then they add a section with robots. So they have some robots. Some of them didn't look that useful but they did have the Cheetah two which was made by from Emma. Mit she to just like a running robot that can run and jump and stuff. Oh the really creepy one. That's like on four legs. They're a bunch of really creepy ones. I don't think it's the one you're thinking that's Boston dynamics. Yeah I think that's the famous creepy. One Yeah Yeah. The those ones a little less creepy this was more. Dopey this one looks a bit. Dopey again I don't know how effective it would be in a fight because it's not designed to fight but it can like run and jump and stuff and they also had another robot type that they had was. Robo be developed at Harvard so they I don't know exactly what the Robo abuse do but I assume they're they're flying little things and I don't know how many they have but if there's swarms with them then they could be useful. They are apparently autonomous flying. Micro robots yeah. They measure about half the size of a paper clip and way less than one tenth of Graham. There was a black mirror. Episode centered around Robo Bees and the roby's killing people so potential there if we if we start making some morally ambiguous choices maybe we are comically punished by the Robo Bs and then there was a section dedicated to humans called the hall of Human Life and for some reason in the human life they had more bs like normal bees. I don't know why but I have normal beast to and then More fitting to the section. They had like models of human skeletons and Lake Model. Showing off like how the muscles in the human body are and stuff so I have human muscle skeleton model things. I don't have like a full. A fully skinned human by headache muscle human. So have those congrats. Could there actually be useful because they can use the guns and stuff and the guns are useless? Have nobody can use them. But I have muscle. Human Steve's them did you have a whole of people what called the hall of Human Life. But they only they don't have fully skinned people. Oh that's unfortunate and in this Hoffman. Life they also have a human brain on display. And I I feel like I can make this like my commander I this can be like the guy that's the brain that's in charge of everything delegating and everything but it's just rain break. This is smart asset to be smart brain. It's it's like the example in every science fiction movie so asked You and then at the Museum Munich science there have been some like movie related exhibits have been like Lord of the rings and Hey Potter at include those two because those are both traveling exhibits and they travel from museum to museum. I didn't think that counted but there was one exhibit called the Science Behind Pixar and this is also a traveling exhibit but the thing is mute. The museum science helped create this exhibit. They like had a hand in developing it so I felt like I could count this one. Yeah Oh Count. It and the point of this exhibit was to like show the process of the of animation. How IT WORKS. So he showed like the modeling of characters and like the rigging and lighting just all the different aspects of animation. And that's kind of irrelevant to this like this fight. But what is relevant is that. They had statues of their characters on the floor. So bad statues of like buzz. They had Mike and Sully from monsters yanked it. Wally the Dorey is really really hoping this is before we started recreating said that. I told you guys. I almost got really lucky. But then I didn't and that was because I was hoping they'd had some incredible and they didn't. Oh yeah that would have been good. They had some of the incredible deals. They would have been good or like like big hero. Six they didn't have any big curious. Either well figure six is not Pixar. Oh that wasn't right. Here's the question is does a full-sized buzz light year. That came to life buzz. Lot Your infection. Or Buzz let your. It's yeah yeah okay. So light up on his wrist sully from monsters INC could be useful. He's a Jam Monster. And then they also so they did have a character from the incredible. It was edna mode. Well you'll be stylish. Yeah we stylish. But she's actually like she's an inventor says she can like in the movies she made their the costumes and the were like bulletproof in fire. Provide Nestle thanks will. She'll provide those for my team but she could probably operate all like the Tesla coils liquid nitrogen weapon stuff. That's fair okay. That works and she might. She might create a suit for your skinless people her own Saturday. Just looking at them right. Yeah so that's basically had I guess everything that markets had accept less and then and then a few extra cool things here and there so Ben What Museum did you look at so I win little different. I went with Art Museum specifically the Solomon R Guggenheim Museum. Which is what you think of somewhere says the Guggenheim that one. There are a couple other Guggenheim. Museum's says well there's one in Venice that has actually come up previously on this show in episode one one. I stole Guggenheim taken back. And there's also one in a bill in northern Spain and actually building one Abu Dhabi without winstone development. But I just use the was that was it the The GUGGENHEIM in New York City. Which ones sort of awkward thing about it was that really what they focus on. Who can high is like impressionist post. Curly modern and contemporary art. And you wind up with a lot of things that are sort of more in the style of like Picasso or Jackson pollock and a little less formed in a way that would be helpful for a combat scenario now in my opinion. I'm a fan of this kind of art but maybe the best choice power to Hawaii. I think you're so a couple of good good hits in here but a lot of it is pretty abstract. You sound like you're regretting. Their DECISION NOT ENTIRELY. I think Alison like his buzz. Light Year. Is Andy's house of Museums. You're definitely the house of. It's funny. I was actually going to come to that. Because there are a lot of sculptures at the Guggenheim but a lot of them are kind of like partially formed human ask figures or things like that or dislike geometric shapes in three dimensions and stuff and literally the exact description I was gonna use was the scenes insists house and toy story where the toys are like a crawling towards them. I can only imagine the one with the robot spider lakes and bald head. Yeah Picture Right. Now we'll get to that But there are some that are more like Jim. Generally human one example I have is on. There is an exhibit by Pabo at Hummer who is a Polish artist who basically made there was like a traveling guggenheim thing in Berlin and people who are who are like working at the Guggenheim. It's like that. He made plaster cast their faces and that amount of the metal frames extruded plastic over them to make them look human ask so as eighteen different like human sized metal frame with plastic and then sort of realistic plaster faces sculptures which are kind of terrifying. And vaguely terminator. Ask but obviously not that strong. I mental frame statues. It'll be better than like a person right. Yeah it's it's it's relevant. Those are the ones I think would be. You know. Not Sort of like awkwardly rolling around on the ground trying to get anywhere. Were those of the more sort of standard s type things but there are other things as well. They're obviously a lot of all these statues lined up and gave the charge order just happened just fall down on no doubt so there are also there obviously a lot of paintings and photographs and things at the Guggenheim. We side work like an like Harry Potter. Where the the things and the pain you would paintings would come to life and be able to move around but not actually believe the painting right for the most part. They're useless really going. Get as you can get any sort of strategy from what I'm or something so there are some there may be useful there. Is the soldier drinks by Marc chagall and artilleryman by on Russo? Which are they're soldiers? They probably have some sort of knowledge of combat so they could help lead. Wait IS PAINTING. Called soldier drinks or his air soldiery called Drinks. No no the paint is called the soldier it down so we don't listen to all his advice because he is drinking but probably most useful there is there was an installation call up the ghost of Mohammad Bin Qasim By a bunny ebeidi which was Mohammed bin. Qassim was general for an Islamic Caliphate in the early eighth century who who invaded Persia at the time. So he would actually probably have some relevant information. So got that going for you less useful photographs paintings. There's one called Keith from Guinea shelter by Elizabeth Peyton which is supported or Keith Richards to have any questions for Keith Richards from the rolling stones. Just knock yourself out there. You've got that going for you. He can provide the soundtrack exactly. Yeah maybe useful. There is the Don twenty-first-century portrait by Doug as Gordon and fleet parental which is a series of portraits of settings most famously known for headbutting. Dude during the two thousand six World Cup so I mean soccer is kind of like war and he headbutted do so. Maybe he has some insights. I don't know he'll instruct here. Soldiers to head but people yeah. I think he's actually a coach now too so he has some tactics and whatnot. There's some stuff there. It could actually better by my choice of five Teddy Roosevelt. They're out of the actual. The actual like exhibit. I think would make a real real difference for the Guggenheim one. This is actually the reason I picked the Guggenheim and I found it. Marcus knows this before we even brought up. We talk this question before before I realized this was the next question. It was installation by Sunyani and Panyu called. Can't help myself. I'm going to put a link and so you guys can see US markets. I think is already seen it but Chris is not and this is basically. I don't know how actually useful will be but I just want to talk about it. 'cause it was super cool. I want to figure out a way to talk about on the show before we even got to this question so here we are basically these guys. They took a robotic arm. The USA like make cars and stuff. Put a shovel on the front gave it computer vision and surrounded with a viscous red fluid looks sort of unnervingly like blood and then that fluid spreads out and the cameras on it basically when when it sees it past a certain point away from the center. It moves a shovel around and pulls the liquid back. And it's really cool actually. It's one of those things where you know people rag on hot and our lot but this is actually pretty awesome. Once again no idea how useful it actually is but it is a robotic arm which are dangerous so you know put you got that clean on blood it can see you know so you got that going for it. I mean the narrative in my head is that it just murdered somebody and it's like Oh God oh God got nobody. That's very much like definitely why they choose read. I think I think that's why it shows ray because it's it's very blood like is. It looks very much like flood. Yeah so it's very cool. You should listener. You should look it off and and find that yours is pretty awesome. Was it called again? It is called can't help myself by Sun Yang and Penghu. If you just Google can't help myself. Guggenheim YOU'LL IT. But now things. I think we definitely more more directly useful. I'll start out with a sculpture by a Jeff. Koons called puppy and it was based on a small wooden sculpture. A terrier that he made and ninety one was like a twenty inch tall Interior chose the terrier because he thought it would be disarming non-threatening regardless of the scale and then a test it. He made a forty foot tall stainless steel terrier that is covered in living flowering plants. I'll put up a picture. Forty feet is big. Forty feet is pretty big. Is that the biggest thing we have probably the biggest thing we have. No Marcus was one hundred ten foot man. It's not you're right. Yeah we both have forty foot t rexes. Oh yeah so I will argue also that stainless steel steel rolled stainless steel terrier birthday. Here it's going to go to the terrier be of a family of t-rex he wanted to see. There's there as puppy. It's it's more plants than I imagined. Well it's basically steal covered implants right. It's it is non-threatening it is non-threatening. It is also a forty foot tall. Tina's it's hard to explain. This is not what I imagined. It kind of looks like just someone if someone made a like a hedge sculpture were like a dog. It's kind of what looks like but there many types of dogs some dogs threatening this does not yet terriers are not a more threatening. Breed is not threatening looking dog and also the colors of all. The flowers are very variable. Very fallish color goes like from green to pink to white to red to yellow over and browns dislike right. It's a met it. It's it's a mess but not in a bad in art way but just not what my brain expanded way for things that do look more threatening and speaking of Sids Sids Spider toy in toy story. We a mom on by Louise Bourgeois which is a thirty foot tall bronze slash marble slab. Steel Spider looks ripped out of like an alien movie. Oh it's very sharp and spindly. Yeah that would be useful for you. It's the it's the daddy long legs spider with where the legs stabbing like needle metal needles. Damn I thinks yeah so. We got that which is fun. It is just Yasser the giant metal pal spider. So it's pretty cool not not great to look at hunger. Keep on moving seems irresponsible to leave it outside right real and then finally. I don't know exactly the best way to two wheeled this but I do know there is. There is a lake in central park and I do think I might be able to have some some water superiority because I have a boat. That's also giants army knife. This this is knife ship one by class. Oldenburg and Coo Jay van Bruggen. It is a giants army knife. I don't know the exact dimensions. I know that the the Max Height which I believe is probably the tip of the corkscrew other the blaze blades. Open up like mechanically. So I don't know if it's the tip of the blade if it goes all the way up the typically corkscrew there for the Max Height is thirty one feet eight inches pro. Sorry is forty feet long. It is there. I was wrong. Yes it was a forty foot long. Oh wait but that's not the maximum. Oh it looks about forty feet long. Just forty feet long with the blades extended. Oh the blades can extend out to increase its length because that would destroy all the walls in the place right but they do so. It wasn't originally. It was actually just played in Italy and they actually actually like works as a boat so I had out on the water and I know the blades do extend mechanically. They're supposed to be some sort of symbolism or not man. I don't think so I here's my take on the. Here's my on this piece of art. Some guy needed to create a piece of art real quick and was looking around at the Shit on his desk. And he's like Swiss army knife and he's fiddling with and he's like wait a minute let's make out of this and then got paid to make it forty feet big so so apparently. Yeah so so. This is apparently part of the course of the night which is a two-day multimedia multi-ethnic land waters spectacle also human performers that he did and Venice and also include an eighteen foot wide Espresso Cup and saucer and house ball. Twelve foot diameter ball to its various pieces of foam furniture. Rebound knife ship. One was the dramatic finale. The performance so yeah. It's just a giant says army knife that's also boat. I don't think the Dopey I can't imagine and now the grand finale and then there's like little. I'm pretty sure it was. All that was sort of the intent was that it was sort of goofy and weird even the name of it knife ship. One sounds like a parody. Bit Is he was definitely. This was kind of his pitch deck was was just doing weird. Weird stuff art right. That's kind of what I have. Oh there is actually one the thing I have it. It's an art installation by MEG. Webster called Kono Disown which is Italian for cone of salt. It's a six foot tall cone of salt. That's it I was waiting for. I'll have picture across slugs off the list of my Nashville Exhibit Museum. I can find the picture hold on I had. I didn't apparently Don't really need to see a six Pokhara Saul. I mean the viewers can't see a six salt will but to me like well. That's a lot of salt. I mean I wanted this paste there. We go. Hey it's going to salt rate. Exactly what is more impressive advertise big? It's a big cone of salt. It's very coney. Perfect cone of salt. It's really actually impress. Is this is horrible? Because not only. Is it boring? Start with the boring picture looking at. Nobody else can see it. Imagine a cone of salt. Okay we have established our teams. We've established our battleground. Where do we want to start here on deciding? Who is going to win this fight? Who's kind of tough to mean? There's a lot going on arguing lot of participants should we? Let's hear what the dinosaurs I guess your Cerro the. Let's start with the elephant in the room. Which is the elephants? Were scared of the dinosaurs. So you're dinosaurs probably end up canceling out my dinosaurs. So I don't have anymore. Yeah I think the big is I think the big thing is the big thing. There's there's a hundred and twelve foot dinosaurs the big one every all the mid sized forty foot dinosaurs have competition So the question is so on my side. We got T rexes. We got the to t REX's Christie's got to t rex's I would think you're terrier could probably is probably the Kuno to quit equating things. And cancelling them off his left with. Maybe I don't know that how we typically do it. We typically don't have more than one thing in a fight. I almost think the terrier cancel out the dinosaur. I think a forty foot tall stainless steel dog is the equivalent of one hundred and two hundred? Ten foot bone dinosaur. How big was this spider Thirty feet feet is a spider was lot sharper. Yeah the spider. I don't exactly know how I would fight the spider spiders alive. I think that's your strongest. Contender is a spider spider. As really strong because like all of my thing on your things are like living organisms. That are at like fleshy. Yeah all my things are fleshing bone. What you're saying is that none of things are nightmare beasts from hell whereas I clearly have one of those and then depend on your feelings on stainless steel dogs. I mean I guess. What's the wind condition here is? Is it last thing standing? I mean gas right. I guess that's what has to be right. So what could defeat the thirty foot metallic spider? I don't know like what the effect of liquid nitrogen would be on was. What kind is stainless steel Bronze marble and steel bronze marble and steel. I don't really know that. Much about liquid nitrogen how it affects metals and it makes them cold in. Tell you I'd think it would make them more brittle metals become brittle at temperatures much warmer than liquid nitrogen temperatures. Yeah so there's a so you have a chance there it's GonNa be it's GonNa be a los accessory. I think just because you will have to get to the spider with mustard best mode to get their Edna writing dinosaur. Probably you said you have some have flying dinosaur of he ever find any sort. Also have the bees. I don't know if we can somehow use those probably not. Those are very small Abel. Carry three grabbed nitrogen. I'm pretty sure. Three grams is like twice as heavy as they are. And I guess to Nigeria. Just freeze them anyway. Yes also because they're probably the same material I that's the big the big issue that you have is that yet to figure out a way to use liquid nitrogen before you can use it right. I mean at nut and mix it into a big pot. How how do you like deploy though right like dump it well it? I think we have to find Edna's limitation send. Because can't she build new stuff? Can't you build weapons not only gonNA take days? You can't invent a thing but she can operate all your things. Okay so can. She makes something that can fire the liquid nitrogen. Do you need anything more than like a bucket or like a fire extinguisher? Know something that can propel. Yeah like where you need. Some sort of gun. You need something that can contain. It also can release at pressure right. Well Yeah She's. She has experienced working with like temperature resistant. Things if you have a liquid nitrogen that you probably have one of those things. She made frozen suit. That's fair actually has actually a compelling argument all right so if Edna can fly on dinosaur. Oh here's a problem. Fund in Flight PTERODACTYLS SKELETON HAS AERODYNAMIC. He's not a skeleton. It was the model was the flushing park. Okay it wasn't just shelton okay cool. I guess it wasn't like pterodactyl size. So but also edna mode is not a big person. How NOT PTERODACTYL SIZE? We talking here. I mean still beg- is is like person size I guess That's a tougher sell. I she's she's Lil little a little bigger than a person but not like giant So I think it's GonNa be tough to get her high enough to avoid attacks from a thirty foot spider. How fast spider do you think I was just thinking that? I really don't WanNa think about it moving. Personally I mean it's not like bulky right like it's pretty it looks like it would got imagine it now. I hate it. I'm trying to maybe acquainted to just the speed of normal spider. Well that's terrifying. That's not good not good. I guess I imagine a move like a movie monster where it goes right. It's not incredibly fast. Yeah it doesn't skid her as loom. Yeah Okay I have my new plan. I have my plan now. I figured it out. I am actually gonNA use my stupid hall of minimal because I can get my people on my on. My Titanic Soroush. I can get them to land on the spiders back. Where really doesn't have much mobility because it is daddy long legs style and then they can start sawing through the legs with their harder. They're harder diamonds and minerals and gems take awhile ultimately. Do I have enough things that I can like? Battle of Hof Style. Harpoon tow cable the legs around so that one looks less likely tesla coil dies use magnetic fields to create its electricity. I don't know if that if I could apply that to the the metal spider. Somehow I don't know how that works. So one thing I can't remember is bronze. Magnetic bronze non magnetic and marble is non magnetic. He said they're stealing there though. Right yeah so not all of magnetic out know what proportion of each like material is right. I do want to say that that. I'm pretty sure that that puppy has got to be taken some head by lessons from the Dan and go to the needs of your big old or stop. Okay so I guess I definitely definitely can take down skeletons. Yeah it's going to be a race of Ken. I get enough big. Can I get enough crap onto your spider right all my things big enough to get onto the thirty foot spider are dead right You said your your little son thing is going to be hot. If you touch your right how hot you think well it will be the temperature of the sun. It be five thousand. Nine Hundred Seventy Kelvin. Wherever the fuck it is less the service it's hotter in the mid somehow Touch it to the spider and melted specials out of ways. How are you GONNA move there? Yeah this kind of thing if I could trick the spider into walking into it. Maybe the Tour de loved the Sun something to do with orbit. I say the sun is a non like yes I could in my head I go. Who Energy blast the Sun that through the spider and everything is wonderful. But I just can't physically figure out how to move the high of its hide behind the Sun. It's it's small spider behind me. Yeah everyone hide behind this baseball. I'll bury the side of the cone of salt trying to think if there's anything super hot at the Museum of Science I feel like there should be but I don't remember seeing anything I mean. I think we have semi reasonable Gershon. Yeah they're past victory against the spider. If the spires don't take a lot of our resources and that it does give benowitz percent which is not expected. Yes but we started. Thank you for spider now. Lead my life forever. The giant giant Pooch. I'm a little less worried about the giant pooch it is big and strong metal but I just feel like I have enough things of scale that I could like run at it that eventually. They would eventually like like dented. The point that it can't really do anything. It's kind of the idea young. How many elephants want you to send like not that many I have lots of elephants and bites is big. I don't know I think I understand it is. It's hard to find when the metal things are dead rape so we got. We got these two things. The two big question marks I think that will have to. By percentage at the end of the are the Big Medal. Guys anything down a level. That's going to be that we need to talk about like there is nice ship one the naval battle be interesting thing ever. I think a well when it's on top of the water beds I think I could capsize it. Points corkscrew down game set match has changed direction. I would say the blue whale would fairly easily capsize about half its size. I could just freeze all the water. Just not held liquid nitrogen. I don't have that much. Liquid nitrogen have like one reasonable size. Container micromanaging. I don't know we only had like VAT there like if if this was in the Movie Museum of Science and that Kinda manifest as like super cold room. I don't think that's how it works. I think it's of however you haven't seen movie have you. I've seen clips. Oh here's another way that we could get it could happen. Is that you know. What am I big dinosaurs? Just pick up the spider and throw it in the water thoroughly. Kill it though. There's comes out of the water okay. Scratching thin the whales squish. It rides out on the knife boat. We've lost the plot. Let's regret I guess what? What important question. What did the Tesla Coil? Good against anything. All of is steph not seems good anything. That's like organic living life. Would it be going against skeletons? Maybe not the skeletons but all your flesh things okay so only suffer generally the smaller anything within the nervous system the nervous system yes album like basically once my big dinosaur skeletons are gone. Tesla coils of pretty effective defensively. I think the only thing the only thing I got going for me. I thanked despite all my giant skeletons is that is just sheer numbers. Where I do have like. I say I have lied to tigers bears. I have like you know. There's displays six elephants and there's a display of like you know five and like you know a savannah see with a whole bunch of them. Have the numbers listed all those animals that I had? I basically have one of all of those with the exception of bears. I have several bears. We and how many how many how many lakes spider have I'm counting appears to be eight. Which is accurate to real spiders? Yes eight eight legs because I got. I have the six stages of evolutionary horses so I could send six people with roques grab six of the lakes. My God if you're if you're spider and impales a horse and the horse gets stuck then then the leg is useless now. I don't know if I'd go so far as useless but I was. I was thinking. Draw and double quartering the spider. But I don't have quite enough. I'm sure having enough animals you could ride but only six ages evolutionary bone horses. I don't know if I would want to send flesh and blood animals out against big spider. That seems a little sad right. Skeletons can go explode. But I don't WanNa have like a you know a bear getting stabbed by that thing on my conscious not good all right. So what should we try to? Should we try to wrap it up and put things into percent? I think so. I think we're at that point percentage is going to be tricky on this one. It is going to be just be how we feel about how we feel about space in general. Yeah So I think Ben is the front runner. I think Benza front runner. It's it's an the taken down the spider and the dog. It's like every if it was if it was just the spider. Just the dog. I don't think it'd be that problem by need. A lot of resources for each of them does Teddy. This Teddy General Roosevelt get any bonuses for big game hunting. Oh Man U's blowing this thing wide open. He specializes it. Does I think you do get you to get some some bonuses? Let's say I think I think it's safe to say forty percent of the time the nightmare spider and the dog. Just just you know. Brush off the attacks and just spend their time stopping everything. They are horrible and massive and made of metal. Yuck that seems fair. Yeah the other the time they get resolved you know whether it takes all most of our forces or we get lucky at which point Ben. What's the back of after those two things that you have? The painting arm robot asked the arm robot and a knife ship one and then the team of of metal and metal sculpture dudes and then various other like impressionist sculpture. Okay I'M GONNA give you than forty two percent. Yeah that's fair because I think after those two Based on just what percentage of being Christmas forces are left. You're going to have tough. Yeah I agree we. There's also the corn assault. You consider the cone of salt. Oh sorry forty one percent so then if the big male ones get dealt with me and I it's kind of. I think I have an advantage on Christmas thing but the coils are still problem that I have higher quality things but you have more things. Alava is depend on whether like the big dinosaurs are still standing. Yeah and I think of the spider gets killed. Odds are that most of the time. I'll have the bigger dinosaurs left I kind of want to split it. Like sixty forty six. The sixty forty after the sixty forty give to bed. I think that the Robo BS could like we didn't really talk about them but I do think they could do a good amount of damage if they like fly inside dinosaur or something. I don't I really don't think so. I don't know I'm just thinking of the black mayor. So that's what they didn't really small man. They weigh less than one tenth of a gram. Yeah but that just means they can get into small places like doing one at dinosaurs brain five dinosaurs nose into its brain. I don't think it's going to be able to do anything. Like as even have like metal parts. It's all like plastics that contract Christie. Would you WANNA have a soft plastic in your brain? I mean no fight. I don't think it's necessarily work. I'm on team but I don't think that the bees do anything also if it comes down to the bees the they're not going to be relevant against the numbers like meek being Eucharist. We have armies of animals attacking each other. That is true was thinking they could get into your big dinosaur. Kill your biggest dinosaur. So you don't have that anymore. I don't think that's GonNa work but I have a lot of dinosaur. You killed you. Kill the one twelve footer and I have like seven forty foot dinosaurs a giant slot and a mammoth and the Mastodon here. I'm going to keep talking until I remember. Senator you've been hired like high tech Steph though but in in the in the sake of mercy and science I gonNa like that so if we to sixty forty splits and we give Ben two percent chance with his leftovers. The final tally is our well then is going to be the winner with forty percents already know. There's no drama there. I get thirty five percent and Chris gets twenty three percent of more even fights. We've had yeah I I disagree. Whatever always disagree. I feel bad saying those percentages. What would you tell? Your argument was big. Robot ARE GONNA TAKE DOWN. I thank you and me are more even than that. I think where like pretty even I mean. Sixty forty is pretty even sixty forty. It's pretty even. I have at least five to six times more animals than you do but I have all the like. The electrical stuff is very dangerous and I like like nitrogen. We don't know how much liquid nitrogen have. But I feel like it's more than just like one container of liquid nitrogen and that's all fine and good but like if a bears attacking you liquid nitrogen only does so much but there's a lot electricity Trista. He'll kill you instantly. Well okay. That's not true. We just how deadly it is but if an army if twelve animals charge it at once and two of them get zapped. I guess I don't know exactly. How deadly Tesla coils are but I think they are pretty deadly. They are but it's kind of a I like they have to charge up right like you're GONNA get one shock off now. You can get a lot of shocks like in the show that they do. They play like a song with Tesla coils and they have a bunch of notes plane after each other right but that's also going to be a lot lower powering to actually do damage. So as the host the PUCK and the one with absolute dominion over all that you hear the percentage of shall remain as they are ben and I points forty-two percent with the Guggenheim me. In second place. Thirty five percent with the American history at with the what of the words own order. American Museum of Natural History Chris. With the Boston Museum of Science Twenty three percent or argue about it more in the behind the scenes. Oh Yeah we'll just guarantee you can. You can go into your bees again and they'll try and listen to that time. Okay Chris yes we. We just didn't absolute museums. So it's all about the learning today but sometimes too much knowledge is a bad thing. So would you rather read the spoiler alerts before every movie or read the last chapter of the book before You Start Chapter One I watch way more movies than I read books. I agree with that sentiment. I also that sentiment disregarding that I think it's actually clearly reading the lash out for the book because like not all this is going to be in the last chapter right. Exactly you'll know you'll know how things end and sometimes not even that because some last chapters are weird. But like you'll know the endpoint but not how you got there. Whereas with the spoiler warning you will know you know like every twist to through you know through them. Usually if it's a spoiler warning it's like highlighting the the big things right in the you'll notice like all of the all of the plot basically all the important things so the only thing I'm thinking about on the other side of the coin is that one when I go and read a book. It's a lot more commitment that I'm spoiling for myself. Like alk go see a movie and I can. I can enjoy a movie even if I know what's going to happen. I remarked movies all the time as lot more of the sensory experience of watching the movie the book is like entirely cerebral. And if I'm going to spend weeks or a month or whatever reading a novel I really don't WanNa know the endpoint. If I'm reading a story for the first time I do think if you know the spoiler the ending you can still enjoy something. Even even of his book you can still enjoy like watching them. Set it up and figuring out how they set it up. Oh there's there's there's still be things to enjoy but it it. It sucks like one thing that gets me in reading a book or something is because you have to create the images these characters for yourself get to put more effort to helping your own characters when you read and if I read in the last chapter that like a character dies and started like that character. I'm GonNa like just socially distanced myself from a emotional emphasis myself from that character to the book. And I'm really just not gonNA enjoy that character as much because I don't WanNa make that attachment before they die because I am emotionally fragile. It's not the same for movies no like I said the move commit like. Yeah it spoils from I. Don't watch a Lotta movies either but I can more easily. Just be along for the ride in a movie. Then be along the writing a book because again you have to commit reading the book. If I knew shelter probably finished I we read a lot of books anymore. Probably stop reading a bunch. I don't think I was watching movies too. Like with regards to movies on. My movies are like crazy. Asian Action Movies. Give abouts pointers there. That's not why I'm here size. That's a good point although also like movies that are a little more you know like the twist is a decent part of it. So I don't know I still think it's the book but I can only the argument. I think it's a pretty easy choice. I think most people that use the book. I think most people will choose the book because I think most people watch a lot more moves in the region. Yeah I think if you read and watch movies at a I'm going to use the term lizzy comparable rate ethics. It's closer I enjoy myself. A good book not that. I read too many but I think I would rather the movie get spoiled plus. I don't have to watch then I can just like be up on the pop. Culture references have to watch the movies also like the last chapter of a book. It's just like everything's already been resolved and it's just all happy now. We don't see how it got resolved It's where I feel like. It's actually not bad long time. Yeah yeah that's true like the last ever can be can be something that's not relevant see could get lucky but I don't Wanna I don't WanNa play those odds I'm going to go. I'd rather get movies and that's just where I'm at Landon. I I would rather read the last chapter the book. I think yes. Aim You guys can be wrong once again. This the part of the show where I ask for stuff. This is episode ninety five. We are quickly quickly quickly approaching one hundred episode in which we are doing one hundred hypothetical questions in one hundred minutes. That's a lot of questions so we need questions from you. The listener please send US questions sinister them now. Because we record in the future this will be your actual last week to submit a question if it is not submitted by the end of this week and the end of the month. Now it may it is. We will have recorded the hundredth episode already by the time episode. Ninety six comes out so please please. Please send them now. Don't sit on it. I'm sure we would love to answer it. If also push it might not be an object we might do a whole episode on who knows but we will be super grateful to get your questions. Send them to are either by email absurd hypothetical Jima dot com a tweet them at us That's GONNA BE AT ABSURD HYPE H. Y. T. E. hype Our facebook page absurd hypotheticals or any other way that you can mash again contact with us if you have a secret fourth way so go ahead and go through any challenged like and because we are so grateful for questions that we get. We are going to reward you. Chris. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that? We are going to reward you with a free audiobook. So I have I have a book that I wrote called. Serial CORTEX and it is a sci Fi crime thriller about homicide detectives. They go inside the mind of a serial killer and they invest less chapter. Hasn't written it yet also. I don't think it apply because there's an audio book fair all right so But yeah if if this sounds like something you're interested in reading slash listening to then in when you send us a question in the emails. Say Code please at the very end and I'll send you a code. Yeah and you get a free book and you can and you can start watching like even though Christian denied us that enjoyment. But I've read so Chris Looks Pretty frigging good. It's not his first Rodeo and it will be fantastic. I'm sure as always feel free to hop onto Patriot and subscribe there for just a dollar. A month get access to her behind the scenes episodes. Where would you all sorts of crazy things? We're going to be doing a practice. Run of of this hundred episode on there. So the town's interesting to you check it out. Oh yeah worry find out. If it's what been promising for months we'll work at all and then Kinda committed pretty hard to this and man. That could be a disaster on his earlier this practice. But that's okay if you WanNa Watch our whole podcast concept crash and burn. It'll cost you a dollar but in any case next week's episode is free every Monday. It's free and you can join us when we answer the following question. What if you could perfectly train bats
The Illusion of Free Will, with Sam Harris
"The universe is filled with secrets mysteries leaving this with many questions to be answered. We find ourselves searching for those answers because the very fabric of space scientists, society, you're converging here for the first time. Oh, once you, what do you think. Briefs data to grandma's house. Get loud. The whole of the universe. I'm your host, Neal, the graph Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, and tonight we're going to deep questions about the human mind featuring my interview with neuroscientist and author Sam Harris picked his brain on everything from free will, to religion to psychedelic drugs to the mystery of consciousness. So let's do this. Tonight, comedian Godfrey. The man known as Godfrey guests tweeting comedian, Godfrey median got there do's. All right. You've appeared in zoo, Lander, Jess, who steal still house labor to enter to come home. Doc, what everybody had candy. Was it a lose your Cam? I was just on a on a rooftop extolling the virtues of cosmic perspective. Of course. Stolley. Of course, we thanks for being here on starts. Pleasure. I feel honored more and this shows about neuroscience. So we have joining us Andrew Newberg physician at Jefferson university. Thanks for coming down for this. And your pioneers in the field of neuro theology. Did you pull that one out of here? Yes. I'm a neuro comedian. What does the Noor neuro theologist. So what we're doing is we're, we're studying the brain when people are engaged in religious and spiritual practices and trying to learn about how the brain helps us to be religious and spiritual. Okay. We'll author several books in one of my here. How enlightenment changes your brain. That's right. That's right. So we're going to lean heavily on your expertise. Okay, entire show go for us. So just like you and as a neuroscientist we've got Tim Harris who has a huge background in neuro science and likes topics like spirituality and religion. And I sat down recently with Sam. I caught up with him in LA and we discussed free will and the there's an assumption. We all have that. We control our own choices. That's a big assumption, but the neuroscientists have been testing this. Okay. And Sam Harris among them, say free will is an illusion well rather than a reality. So let's check it out. When you look at the scientific details, we know that for instance, a a voluntary motor action is preceded by neuro anatomical events that we can detect with EG or with FM or I, which tree seed your conscious awareness of having made a decision. So at a moment where you subjectively think you're still making up your mind and you're still free to choose door number one versus number two we can detect with now with very high probability that you're going for door number two at in precisely an interval where you think you you, you're still just figuring it out, right? So that's a fairly stark insult to this company with retention of of having free will completely. Yeah. Yeah. But what I would say is that even if nothing precedes your choice except your choice, so let's say, let's say you're thought I'm gonna go for door number two, right? Let's say that is the. I 'cause there's nothing. There's there's no neuro chemistry we need to talk about for prior to that. Let's just say that that's even the action of yours, your immortal soul, right? That is just integrated with the brain somehow and pulling the strings that thought that the fact that emerges rather than some other thought we go. Number one, the fact that it is active, all of that is absolutely mysterious, right? Like simply can't think thought before you think it. It just brings into view right, and it's spring into view is totally compatible with a lack of freedom and a wet, no matter how you you massage the physics, whether it's pure, determined as them or determine plus some randomness. Neither of those dials gives you free will. So Andrew, wow. This is an insult to. He, I think he confused himself. So injury which camper you win in this illusion of free will. I do think that we have free will, but I think that the biggest question that we have to answer is how are we defining it? What do we mean when we say we have free will, I think when Sam is talking about it, he has the sense that they're sort of like this person that says, I'm going to raise my arm, and then I raised my arm, but a lot of the way our brain works is that our will kind of happens naturally when when I'm talking what I'm saying, I don't think about what I'm going to say before. I say it just comes out and in that regard that mystery that he's talking about, I think that's really where the will is. The problem is when you actually try to find it when you're looking at a scientific way of looking for, it gets pretty hard to find because you can find all these other things going on these neural connections and all this stuff going on in the environment that affects the way we make a decision for you think you've got free will when you own jokes? Yeah, free, will I listen all this mystery to the brain stuff, right? Here's the reason why even sound and confused when he was talking about the free world. Pause. Yeah, so it's none. Wait a minute. You don't think thought before you thinking. Even we're looking like. Because I really believe all this is because we have all these mysteries to the brain, right? You say we use ten percent of our brains. Let me tell you why. This is my comedic take comedia- Logist here because you're using your brain to study. So ain't going to give you nothing else. That's why there's the mystery. 'cause you have to use the brain to study. That's right. Unless we find some outside entity to study it, it's not going to happen. So it's always going to be ten percent and how do we know it's ten percent? Because the brain is telling us to say ten percent. How about that. The idea that we only use ten percent of her brain is a complete falsehood. From the very beginning. I think the statement was we only know what ten percent of our brain does, and that immediately got misinterpreted as we only use ten percent of our brain and we so want that to be true, especially in schools, teachers talking to their kids that there was no force to undo that lie fair. Yeah, I think so. I mean, we in many ways, you know, when we do a brain scan, the whole brain is on all the neurons firing, but but guess what? What we're aware of is actually a very small amount, but I like the idea that if the brain is studying the brain gotta use some of the brain to study the brain, some of that brain can't be what the brain is otherwise talking. We're sort of. Sort of followed that? Yes. Harris references of decisions that preceded the action by a few tenths of a second right in the brain. And why does it matter at all when that decision is made with the time delay as well? I mean, the argument there was one or two very small studies actually that showed that right before somebody made a conscious choice to push a button that there was actively in the brain, and the argument there is that well, there's something in our pre conscious or unconscious mind that's helping us to make our decision, and we're not really conscious of doing it. But I think again, it gets back to sort of how define it if we're really talking about all the different parts of who we are that make our decisions than that could be part of the way we actually make our decision. This is how the brain works, how the brain where we're always in this kind of reciprocal interaction with what's going on in the world around us. So it's there's never really a place to find that moment where we make a decision. It's very hard because our decisions are being made all the time. So we really need a lot more research before. I think we can finally. Say we do, we don't have free. Well, if we assume for now that humans Sam Harris interview. So let's go along with his with his claims that we do not have free will I asked him about the ethical implications of that if in fact we're not in control of our own decisions, something else. Let's check it out. I think there are some moral lugers that we can cut through once we realize it free will doesn't make any sense. And the moment you notice that no-one pick their parents, no one pick their genes. No one picked the world into which they were born. So Hitler didn't make himself right. Hitler was made by the universe. He lives made by, you know, he, as you know, is stardust plus all of the influences of society. And so and so when you look at Hitler as a four year old boy, you, you don't look at him as the true author of his evil. You look at this rather unlucky for for your old boy who is destined to become the most evil person we can name, right so and if you, if you could intercede at that point, if there was a cure for human evil, right? If we understood psychopathy or you know. I don't know what his actual diagnosis was, but you know if we understood that the Hitler form of evil well enough, we would just cure that boy, right? You'd give him if you knew that there's not enough, oh, late in the diet. Could predispose someone to that kind of evil? Well, then you would you would be negligent not to give the full eight and even and this is true at every stage along the way and it no point does he suddenly become in that in that life continuum? Does he suddenly become magically culpable for everything right at no point, does he become the author of himself? And if you again, if even at the at the age of fifty, let's say, we catch Hitler in his bunker and he's now the the true author of the greatest act of the evil. We we can imagine, but what happens there? If we scan his brain. Now, you know, this is an acronym, but though we put them in a brain scanner and find that he's got some enormous tumor in the approach. Kriat spot that could explain his behavior, right? I mean, you take the example of Charles Whitman is the classic example of a person who was a mass murderer is one of the first mass shooter who killed. I think fourteen people at the university of Texas. So he had a clear blast OMO pressing on his Meg delight with he actually what's amazing little bit means, but it sounds bad. Yeah, hit a big, big brain tumor. You know, in the right spot that would would you would expect undermined his impulse control and give him these experiences of rage that he was. He was complaining about. He actually in his suicide. Note, he asked for his brain autopsy so that doctors could explain why he was doing all this, right? So he he had insight into his problem. This is not me what he was saying. This is this is I'm a victim of my biology and it turns out he was. And my argument is that the more we understand the brain, the more we understand the neuro physiology of everything about us that we care about love and hate and things like evil right condition like psychopathy. The more week, the more those descriptions of cause and effect will be sculpt Dory. The more it will be like finding Charles Whitman's brain tumor. And if there were a cure for it, you would just give the cure. So Andrew, will we cure even one day? I certainly hope so. That'd be great to be able to do that. But you know, part of the problem is and he kind of mentioned that there are so many factors and there's billions and billions of neurons and billions and billions of connections in the brain that it's gonna be very hard. I mean, sometimes it's obvious, you know, sometimes it somebody does have a tumor or something going on in their brain and you say, let's remove it and then they change their behaviors. But for the majority of people, especially people who do a lot of evil stuff, it's hard to find the exact in the brain but progresses. And so I think in his last reference, he was thinking of the tours metaphor for knowing in the future, what is making someone evil. So so let me ask a moral question. So trawls women, right? Let's say he was not killed on the roof of the tower, university of Texas, and they find the tumor. They operate remove the tumor. Now he's just fine. Right? Does he get prosecuted for killing the fourteen people? Well. He would get prosecuted, but he would probably make the argument that he masking. I've been involved in these trials. Can you you'd probably prosecute them and if you. I'm asking you a neuroscientist. We just cured this guy of some of a heinous act, right? He's not capable of that ever again, does he go to jail prove to be that he never can do it again. If you can show to me that that was leaning on his dealer, but dealer dangerous and now he's not dangerous and we have confidence enough in your field. Right? So a cert that as expert testimony, I don't know if I would have that confidence. You should go to jail. He's prove you kill these people. He did going, but he might. He maybe he won't remember. So what? To what extent should we be held responsible for actions if we victims of our own neuro psychology? Well, again, I to me, I think we still have a certain degree of responsibility because it's also how we deal with all of those other environmental aspects. And so when you look at Hitler for examples as and as an example? Yeah, he had a lot of genes in various issues that went into what made him who is shoes issue. Issue. He was a little hateful. The most issue is person. Yes, absolutely. But I think part of the question is, how did he handle those issues? And is there some aspect of his own will that that led him down a really horrible path. Whereas other people who have been brought up in similar kinds of situations, wind up doing things like well, coming up Sam Harris will explain why he thinks science can answer questions of morality when star talk return. From the American Museum of natural history right here in New York City. The my recent interview with neuroscientist and floss ver Sam Harris. We discussed the idea of the science of morality. Let's check it out. When you're talking about economics and sociology and psychology and genetics, you're talking the talk of science, right? And what I say is that. Once you realize that that morality questions of good and evil, and right and wrong should be thought of in terms of human wellbeing and the wellbeing of conscious Morjane which itself is not a controversial place to start that conversation, except people will then make the move. Who are you to say that Hugh that, well, the wellbeing of conscious Dems is the basis of of morality, right? Because people will say no, morality relates to what God wants right now. I think actually the people who say that the people say that the the, the, the fundamentalist religious person who says that, you know this life means nothing. It's just a matter of whether you get into paradise or or or hell. That person is still talking about the wellbeing of conscious systems here. She'd just imagined that the real dividends are are earned after this life. So Andrew, is it? Is it debate or is it controversial where we get our morality from? Are we hardwired for it? But I think there's certainly parts of our brain that help us to feel moral. I mean, when we have very basic ways of looking at the world is being good or bad, I mean, that's survival instinct and us to be able to make sure that we go to good things and avoid bad things. And so right away, we sort of look at what's good and what's bad, and that begins to form our morality. Then when you add in our bigger brains and our -bility to think about things abstractly and be able to bring in our emotions to all these different questions, we use that good and bad to help us figure things out tomorrow I can decide what's good for me, but it might not be good for you allow generally we just morality by how others fare relative to your actions and your decisions. All right. Well, I think one of the, you know, when when Sam is talking about the wellbeing of people, you know, that's a bit of a arbitrary concept, and you know what is the right way to think it really when you think about what science would actually ask us to, do you think about theory of evolution? The idea. Of us trying to sort of be able to survive, adapt and be more effective than the next person than I'm actually not going to be all that moral unless it's to my benefit. Surely science at some level can inform morality defined it. Well, I think so. I mean, I think we can certainly look to science as a way of helping us understand the parts of our brain that that do help us to be moral on the other hand in when everybody whenever anybody says to me, we should turn to science to help us be moral. I asked him how many scientists do you actually know? Because when you look at scientists, they're every bit as crazy and Asti as everybody else. Every bit as. How many scientists. So so are you suggesting we should just leave these moral questions to religion? Well, this is why I love the field of neuro theology because I think it really is something that is requires a hybrid requires science, but it also requires a religious and philosophical approaches to understanding. A very complex question is not a simple way of answering. The reason I asked that is in, you know, plenty of parts of the bible of the Judeo Christian bible. The plenty parts there is like, whoa, I'm not going to do that. That's pretty messed up right there. Right? You know, look at this retaliation look, I mean, so the whole book both books are not entirely sources of conduct. We would consider moral today, right. Well, and so you have to cherry pick it. You have to cherry pick that involves some other place which you're making a decision from. Exactly, exactly. And that's why I think you really need all of these different parts working together. You can't just look at religion. You can't just look at science, but he needs to look at them together. So I ask Sam Harris about what he felt was the origin of religion. In culture. He's got his own views on this. This check it out. I view religion in general. As I attempted science, it's a first attempt at telling a story about what's going on with the world. Yeah, I think it's simply because we don't have a truly scientific and and easily available conversation about the the far end of the continuum of human wellbeing and and spiritual experience, quote, spiritual experience to capture that your attention at that point. So then the only only language to go to the only books you find in the bookstore are books which to one degree or another trade in superstition and mythology. And so they could be, you know, traditional religious books or new age philosophy that's just, you know, picking and choosing among traditions. But I think if we had a truly honest, you know, positive psychology, which was which was built out all the areas that we, we needed out to capture. You know, the deepest experiences of compassion and our moral commitments to one another, and also, you know, mystical psychedelic experiences. You know the rare moments in life that that that shatter people's egos. In good ways. I think the temptation to go back to the the, the cemetery of dead gods and resurrect them, I think is would be hard to find. So Andrew yet another one of your books magically appeared in front of me why God won't go away. And so the plenty of atheists in the world by who you, what are you talking about here? But I think the number is growing absolute. So you say, why won't Gago? Why will go away as fast as people thought, what? What's the? What's the feces here? We'll see how things go. But I think that what we're talking about here is that the way our brain is set up the way our brain works is very compatible with the way people believe in experience religion, spirituality in God and be until our brain undergo some kind of huge change. We're going to be able to hold onto these ideas when when Sam is talking about religion in that clip, he's he's talking about a kind of God. We verge was the God of the gaps. You know, that helps us explain the world explain we're lightning comes from or where a hurricane comes from sense of the world. It makes sense early scientific time. Yeah, and that is a part of how religions involved, but but I think far more. When people you ask people about their religions, it's the experience that they have the experience of God. And that's something that isn't answering a question about the world. It's something that they feel and they they experienced very deeply. And again, as long as our brain is able to experience that, then it's going to be hard for that kind of belief system to go. Okay. What does Noor science say about religious experiences? Well, when it comes to the religious experiences, you know, sometimes people thought, well, maybe there's just a spiritual part of the brain this little God part of the brain. But it turns out that when you look at the richness and diversity of these experiences, the emotions, they vote the the visions that people have the the sounds that people here. It actually turns out based on our brain scan studies that it really is the entire brain. And of course, since the brain is connected to the body, it seems to be our entire selves which is involved in having these religious experiences. I'm sorry visions. So when. Yeah. So when a preacher said, you know the other day, God told me. So that means real well. I don't know about that particular. Jesus deal. The sent me a text. Sit me a smiley face. Part of part of the question a lot. A lot of people who will say, well, how can people believe in something when there's no evidence, but that that depends on how you define evidence. When when we look at evidence in biomedical paradigm, we wanna randomized double blind placebo controlled trial, but that's different than what a philosopher things evidence or a physicist things as evidence or Phelan things as evidence. So when people say, if you go to church and you say, do you have evidence that God is in your life? A lot of the people there will say, absolutely Sam hairs referenced the the graveyard of dead gods. So clearly some gods have gone away gone away. No one is worshiping Poseidon you know? So God's do come and go, yeah. Well, and you know, some people who are religious also have to realize that religions change in involved too, and the way people do Christianity today the way people do Judaism, Islam today, very different than what was done a thousand years ago or two thousand years ago. So those legends have evolved in change, and certainly we have gotten away from some of these more. Individual gods like were and and some of the ones that are involved in our days of the week. In fact, almost to protect what we think of as a modern religion, the those sets of God's we refer to as mythology right, rather than just religion, right? But clearly was Greek religion, Roman religion. That's what it what. What next we're gonna explore the science of meditating when star talk. Here's what I love about SimpliSafe home security SimpliSafe is ready for anything that gets thrown at it. If a storm takes out your power, simply safe is ready. If an intruder cuts, your phone line simply safe is ready. 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He studied meditation in Nepal, and so I ask him about any insights he might have gleaned from that experience. Let's check it out. What you can get in Buddhism in particular is and don't get me wrong Buddhism is, you know, has all the trappings of a religion. There's a lot of a lot there that that isn't, you know scientifically valid, but you can find a very pure and modern and and perfectly secular recipe for just training attention on on itself. And on basically Lert you learning how to perform an attention based experiment in the laboratory of your own mind and discover more and more about what human consciousness is like based on direct observation. And how does this manifest if you never meditated, how different would you be in front of me right now? Yeah. Well, I mean, you might not notice. It might again, these are internal changes, so it's not totally obvious, but one is just the difference between suffering and not suffering one. The one thing you get out of meditation as you begin to understand. And the mechanics of your own suffering more and more from the first person side and you can. You can actually just relax in ways that you couldn't otherwise be able to relax. You can cease to suffer necessarily. You can. You can cease to worry about things that you would otherwise just be just totally hijacked by. So we end drafted ask you what is meditation and how does it work on the brain? Well, there's actually a lot of different kinds of meditation, but one of the most common ones, one of the ones that Sam is talking about is where you bring your concentration, you focus on a sacred object on that will word on an image like a candle thing. Yeah. And as you do that, you actually use what's called your funnel. It's right behind your head. It increases the activity because you're concentrating on it. But if you just do that, it's it's so simple, but as you do it other things start to happen, your funnel helps to control your emotions. So your motion start to settle down and you feel more calm, relaxed, less stressed. And we also noticed that there's changes going on in the back of the brain and area bring called the parietal lobe, which actually helps to create our sense of self and has that quiets down. We begin to lose our sense of self that sense of becoming one with the universe, becoming one with God, whatever the particular experiences. So focusing on one thing, I thought it was a try not to focus on anything. Well, that's a different kind of meditation. And so some people actually are trying to clear their mind thoughts or allow whatever thoughts to happen. This is mindfulness the Lao, whatever thoughts pop into your head is. Okay. And then you just kind of focus on it and then let it go. Yeah, one of the goals of Buddhism as I understand it is to achieve some levels of enlightenment, right. So can you tell me about that? Sure, absolutely. So enlightenment is a, you know, when we talk about the big e we talk about the big e enlightenment experiences which where the person is completely transformed by that. And of course you know, we all have these experiences what we call the little e enlightenment experiences because we have that little aha moment we understand how to solve a problem how to how to figure something out at work with a relationship. Now you said it changes your brain, it changes your brain in what way? So, well, the mazing thing about enlightenment experiences is that even though they might last moment it can change the entire way. Somebody thinks changes the different parts of your brain, your emotional parts of your brain, the abstract thought process of your brain, and you suddenly come to a whole new way of thinking about the world. And that's something we don't really understand how it happens from a neuroscientist perspective because normally we think that the brain changes slowly over time, we learn mathematics through all the grades, and we kind of. Develop it slowly. You don't just, you know, suddenly understand how to tactless. Whereas with this, it's like suddenly you get it for the very first time, and it's a very, very powerful life-changing transforming experience. I remember finally learning certain tenets of calculus right in in an instant. Yeah. And with that counters enlightment I would call those the small e enlightenment experiences. They changed the willing to. Right? Because the big experiences change you. They change everything that you are gonna thing about. Exactly. Neil seems like a meditative guy. I don't think you're about the universe. You're a man of the universe. I lead us in the meditation. Don't you think. You think the meditation. Or something, and and and I just see pictures of people, meditating, you know, you go. How do that way? It's a way why can event away. Okay. Every there we go. Okay. So close your eyes. Imagine you're rising up offer surface. You look down. You see the city from whence UK lift up above the class. He see the continent take shape earth. Seeds in front of you. You on a journey towards the sun before you get there, you pass Venus and you glad that we're not under a runaway greenhouse effect the way venuses where it's nine hundred degrees Fahrenheit. Has mercury. The fastest moving planet named for the Roman God, mercury the fastest moving God. You keep going and you reach the surface of the sun. And six thousand degrees you've Apor is. Your spirit, energy, dissipates across the solar system. Becoming one with the cops. Oh, the baby Ryan. You have bad? No. Good. 'cause you at one with the cost vaporizing? Oh, ooh. Awesome. Science journalist, Robert Reich also wrote a book on this topic, and it's called why Buddhism is true science and philosophy of meditation and enlightenment. And I think we've got Robert on video call right now. Robert, you, there you go a low here. Here. Thank you for having me. So it's a pretty bowl title saying Buddhism is true. So could you, could you explain not not only that it's true, not only that it's true but, but why it's true. So it's even bolder than that. Okay. Tell me why it's true. The short answer to that question is that we were created by natural selection, and here's what I mean by that Buddhism has long had a kind of diagnosis of the human condition and implied in that is a view of human nature. There's certain claims about human nature made by Buddhism. You know, humans are prone to suffering. Happiness doesn't last gratification evaporates and also Buddhist claim that humans don't always see the world. Clearly. In fact, we're prone to certain allusions, and I think for starters, both of those claims are born out by the modern understanding of how natural selection shape the human mind. The fact is that our happiness was not high on natural selections agenda, and if suffering helped ancestors get genes in the next generation, if not seeing clearly need. Having specific allusions about themselves of the world helped him get genes into the next generation. Then natural selection would favour suffering Andalusian and is that is a philosophy of our evolutionary past. It's an accurate description of what human evolution produced. It's an accurate diagnosis of our problem. I think the the thing it adds is a prescription. It tells you not only what the problem is, but what to do about it and meditation as part of that prescription was a scientist at heart. We don't know much about the Buddha per se. I would say, we know even less about him than we know about Jesus or Muhammad, but it is safe to say that early Buddhism, the thought that kind of accumulated more than two millennia go and much of which is certainly attributed to him was if not scientific, informal, since very rational Listrik. And there was a respect for certain kind of evidence. A lot of the evidence was introspective evidence that people meditating and observing how their minds worked, and then arguing about what that meant coming up with you of human psychology and philosophy. But it was very prescient philosophy, I think much much of it has been born out by modern psychology Bob. Thank thanks for this insight that you've had to this. All right. Coming up. We're going to take a trip into the science of psychedelic experiences when star talk return. Store more science of the mind and author neuroscientist Sam Harris has written about using the Delic drugs to explore the nature of his own mind, and I asked him about that experience, check it out. The brain barely works at all without disruptions. And now he add chemicals to it. This takes you farther away from it, objective reality that scientists bent so long and so many centuries trying to decode and the farther away you are from dejected reality. I cannot then declare that somehow I'm more in tune with the universe, right? What I think it's, I mean, the one problem is that we have this word one-word drugs that covers his vast class of substances that have very different effects of that. I think are good drugs and bad drugs drugs that are interesting and drugs that should go near LSD that separates you from an objective reality more than sort of most things and well it does. It does and it doesn't say it depends on what your experiences analysis you can have. I would say on many of these drugs on many psychedelics, you can have an experience that is more coincident with what you at the end of the day should would think is true. Scientifically. And you can have experience of just, you know, that's that is just classic case of clinical, the psychosocial and anything in between. So so it's it's the problem with drugs is they are. They're very blunt instruments, and there's it's very haphazard what you get. You don't know what experience you're gonna have until you have it. I mean, I found them in the beginning very useful in that they prove to me that it was possible to have a very different experience in the world, and I was tending and that consciousness, and the brain are perturb -able and plastic to agree that I hadn't expected. But I think something like meditation absent the perfectly targeted drug that we don't yet have that has no other affects that. We don't want mental training is a much more easily governed way to to approach these things. And I, and the other thing is that the the insights that I think are most valuable don't need to be married to the the pyrotechnics. Of vast changes in consciousness that you get with with psychedelics. It's like the the, the deeper insights, for instance, you know, free will is an illusion or that the the ego doesn't exist. That's two sides of the same coin. The sense that you're not actually riding around in your head as a as a subject that separate from your body that can be had in ordinary waking consciousness. Andrew, are there any similarities between being under the influence of a psychedelic drug and what might happen under deep meditation or in a spiritual experience because they're all changes in the brain. Right. Well, I mean, there are some similarities and differences that one of the things that's interesting. We have served hundreds of people who have had experiences both naturally, and then also under psychedelic drugs. And interestingly descrip-, are you handing them psychedelic drugs in your Lodo? They've already had the experience come hot, but they're all. Yeah. How did you sign up for you? I can't reveal this information crackheads from saying. I'm ready would experiment. Are some studies being done where they actually are giving them psychedelic drugs, and they're getting a lot of people to sign up for him. And but but interestingly, I mean they actually described these experiences as in many ways every bit of spiritual and every bit as transformative as people who've had the more natural. It's now agree with Sam that that meditation is a more specific approach with drugs he dumped, you don't know what's going to happen. And and I think ultimately, when you do talk about some of the more profound implications like free will and consciousness, oftentimes we see that a little bit more with the spiritual experiences with meditation, but the drug induced experiences are very interesting, and as a neuroscientist part of I'm fascinated by them as neuro theologian. Why I'm fascinated by them is we know where they go, you know, we can say, okay, well, this drug is going to the serotonin system or this drug is going to some other part of the brain, and we can see exactly how they happen. Could you explain just for take a few moments to describe the. Differences between the well-known psychedelic drugs, so mushrooms and LSD just tells what's different about them? Well, actually a lot of them are are Syra Tonen related, so LSD and suicide, and they actually activate some of these Syra tone and receptors in the brain which part of the visual system in part of what creed, all those very weird allusions and experiences. The people can have. There are other receptors in the regions. I mean, hallucinations word for that. I thought I knew it. People get. But other ones, I mean, there's there's something called MD receptors. There's the opiate receptors, there's there's cannabinoid receptors for along. Okay. So each of these drugs target, the different receptors. Yeah, and they can. They can all elicit different kinds of experiences depending on the circumstance. Well, we've come to the part of our show called cosmic queries. Where we take questions for fan base across the internet and the listening on the topic of neuro science. Christopher Nichols from Vancouver, British Columbia is DMC actually releasing your brain just prior to death. We don't know, never been studied and there's no evidence that it is, but some people think it is accounting for people having their life flash before they're right. I would say that died under steamroller. I can imagine various data where nothing is happening right now do not reflect on your life. Damn just dead. Okay. The reason is, is that the people who have the different experiences under GMT have certain similarities to near death experiences, which is a common experience that people do suspicion the case, and there's an entire short story that explores this phenomenon and into incident at our creek. Oh, you know, is that right? It's a. Our creek bridge. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a confederate soldier ready to be hanged in the morning and by the union soldiers waiting for sunrise and they put the noose on him and he like lives his life. But you don't know that is just you think he escapes the news and and then gone. He's gone all the happened like seconds. Very cool. That is part of that experience. Is that life that life review that happens in seconds off your whole life flashing before you literally does happen for people. All right. Coming up more on the science of mind. When start off continue. LEGO Technic is more than just bricks. It's real life built with moving parts, realistic models that are challenging and fun. Some legal Technic sets have real working gears electric Motors, even pneumatics. This is advanced as it gets. If you're a car, loving, petrol head, get your fix with one of LEGO Technics awesome motor sport built or see a life size Technic supercar. If you dig big hydraulic machines, put your skills to work with the Volvo wheel loader or Technic dozer set. Of course I play with my daughter and she absolutely loves it. What a great way to actually get your kids to understand some of the tenets of engineering not to mention, super, super fun. If you build for power and speed than you need to visit LEGO dot com slash Technic to find your next Technic build and. See how LEGO recently built a life drivable supercar out of Technic parts. That's LEGO dot com. Slash t. e. c. h. m. is see LEGO Technic build for real. This is star talk. Start off from the American Museum of natural history featuring my interview with neuroscientist Sam Arrison and I asked him about the mystery of human consciousness. Check it out. There's nothing about a brain when you look at it as a physical system that suggests that the lights are on, it's just the consciousness even exists. And there's nothing. There's nothing I, it's just I don't think there ever will be anything so may be an emergent phenomenon that cannot be reduced is it's totally invisible. It's not only it's not just that is emerging and it be we. We can talk about the merits of reducing things one way or the other. But here it's like if you talk about a physical system that has an emergent property, let's say the brittleness of physical substance that isn't brittleness is an emergent property of how atoms are bound in some kind of lattice structure, but you can understand the higher level property in terms of the lower ones and and even perhaps predicted and nothing is lost. When you move from the brittleness of glass to then talk. About its molecules. That's explanatory and our intuitions run through and all that that works. But the move from, you know, having three pounds of of porridge essentially in your head that is, you know, electrically charge and network together in a way moving from that to our subjective inner lives right in the fact that that it's like something to be what we are, that's a move that is highly unintuitive. Andrew, you guys have been in this business for a long time. You and your ancestral grain brethren. Why can't you figure all this out? I think the biggest problem is that when it comes to consciousness, we're in it. You know, we're trying to figure something from the inside out and that's where the problem really resides. So we can never really somehow jump outside of our consciousness to be able to look at it and to really understand it was not because y'all just aren't smart enough. Well, that's part of the. Defined consciousness conscious is really the ability for us to be aware of the world around us and for us to be aware of the fact that we're aware so do we have to actually understand consciousness to then create it in a I, for example, I official. Artificial intelligence. You know, it's certainly would help, but it's also possible we could stumble upon it accidentally too. So I asked Sam Harris, what happens the day, artificial intelligence. Achieves consciousness because he, you know, he's fought about this, check it out. Create an AI robot, and then I shoot it. Is that murder if his conscious it is? Yeah, I mean that that's that's the issue with because space exploration, we say, don't send humans because we wanna come back and we have to be supported and we don't want to die risky frontier. SpaceX portion. So send a robot. Yeah. And if these robots have sufficiently high AI and we named them, then if we don't plan to bring them back and we know this in advance, we don't tell the robot that's murder. And if we build something that we think is conscious will, then we have an ethical obligation to not. Okay. I kind of feel the same way, but I don't know how we how that will actually play out on the frontier space exploration when we start sending robots. Yeah, have their own kind of personality and and attitude. And well, my concern is that we will build robots that have all that personality and attitude and may say they're conscious and we will never know we'll, we will still not understand the action. Basis of consciousness, and we'll just cease to find it a compelling question, though they'll be advertising their consciousness and everything they do and say notice. And yet we just won't know. But the intellectual problem is a moral problem because if we don't know whether the things conscious, we don't know whether we're building something that can suffer. So how does consciousness play into your research when all these other bits are plugging into it, the the meditation, the the discussions of morality? What is the goal of all this? I think the ultimate goal is knowledge and understanding and part of why I've always been fascinated studying these experiences. Lightman spiritual experiences is because they represent an altered state of consciousness. And in fact, we were talking a little while ago about you'd have to kind of get outside of conscious conscious to really look at it. Those are the experiences where people actually say that they actually say that they get outside of their consciousness and and it goes back to your earlier question to that. I think ultimately, we have to find a way of merging science with our consciousness with our ability to sort of reflect on ourselves and use our brain scans and do all of that together. If we're going to truly understand understand what it means, how it works, whether it can be an an another machine that we could build. These are the fundamental questions about who we are. Human beings. And to me, this is what makes neuroscience earthy oncology, the study of consciousness so exciting because we're really just scratching the surface really don't fully understand all these things and just like exploring the universe out there. We have an internal universe that we really need to try to do our best to explore and understand. Well, if I may offer some parting thoughts. I- professionally an astrophysicist, I look up. For living when I'm not looking up, I'm thinking. For a living. And when I've heard religious people share with me. Their experiences. They're very private experiences with whatever may have been the daddy that they worshiped. Their eyes are lip. They can even. Get emotional shed, a tear tear of joy. And I think to myself, has it ever happened to me. No, not in that context. But something similar. I've gone on pilgrimages to mountaintops where their root their telescopes sitting at the summit and there in the telescope alone in a dome. Trained on the universe, communing with the cosmos. And I just think to myself, I'm looking to the center of the Milky Way galaxy and light emitted from a star thirty thousand light years away has been traveling for thirty thousand years, moving through the vacuum of space, and it lands in my telescope in my detector and I use that information to deuce the nature of this universe. For me, that's a spiritual experience connecting with the cosmos. And I wonder if what I feel while that's happening is lighting up the same parts of my brain as what gets lit up. When someone is having a religious experience. I don't know. Let's how I feel. And for me, that's a cosmic perspective. You've been watching. Your host, your personal. Big you to keep looking up. Gallileo to orange now that you've finished listening to this episode. We've got another great episode for you, but first a little bit of history. Two things happened in October nineteen, fifty eight. The first was that NASA was founded on October first. The second on October. Fifth later that week are very o.'neil digress. Tyson was born, why not celebrate both? Birthdays by listening to, let's make America smart ago the future of Massa hosted by meal, the grass ties and featuring Dr Ellen still fan, the former chief scientist at NASA and yours truly meals. Futuristic Kojo's Chuck nice to listen, visit star, talk radio dot net, future of NASA or search. Let's make America smart. Again, the future of NASA, wherever you listen to podcasts.
Making Stuff, with Adam Savage
"From the American Museum of natural history in New York City, and beaming all space and. This is startling. Science up. Colli. This is startled. I'm your host Neal the grass Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, and we're coming to you from my office at the eight and planetarium of the American Museum of natural history right here in New York City co host today. Chuck nice Neil, always good to be here at the cosmic crib who we making a sandwich with here. We've seen him before we have. We did the one, the only the inimitable Adam Savage back. Thank you. Very third star talk. It's been too long since I've been it's been too long. We enjoyed your last visit, and I feel like we're lifelong friends, even though we've only had a few times together it feels like culturally. We're we actually. Yeah. We bounce a lot hope. The cultural VIN diagram has quite the area where you too old, and that creates the friendship even without individual time to see what you're doing. And I think that's awesome. Cool man. So we've got you actually have a new book. I do. How about your book, what you saying you have? I, I'll do the talking about your okay. Okay. Okay. That looks better doesn't it? That is. That's called public relations when he talks about his book. It's Brad, it's. Brag about it. It's public relations. Go. What did you think of my? So every tools a hammer, great title and this, you know, my, my favorite picture, and here is a lot of interesting pictures like you and your workshop. And you're my favorite is the stuff that you dumped out of your backpack. Oh, but then neatly organized, which is cool. I like seeing what's it? And I like John hodgman's comment. He said, this is a map of his brain. Nice. I thought that was a very good comment that feel like venturing into that unknown territory for some people you don't wanna go there. Right. But for Adam Savage. Yeah, you wanna see what have what would drought? What's been driving him his whole life? That is so funny. Some people you don't wanna go there. Just my wife left her. She journals and it was journals, the journal was on the bed. No. You did not know I'm laying on the bed, and watching TV the journalist sitting right there. She comes in the room. She goes on my left my journal, but she goes you didn't read it. Did you want to know what's going on? Any parts of what is happening in your wife said, I didn't read my journal, does not bode well, what movie in exists in which someone read someone else's journal in all turned out. Great. Ainhoa movie about that used to my twin boys used to like sitting there. Bunk beds and talk every night. And my mom was like, what are they talking about? I don't know. That's their private moment. I'm not gonna listen. I don't wanna know let them have their moments. I wanna know what's on in his head. And so does our fan base? Now that is so true because I have their quest. This is a Kuzma queries edition of star talk. And we just solicited our fan base questions. No Dade land in the lap of Adam Savage about just making stuff. Yeah. And so, so I haven't seen them, you Chuck review them just review in them and Adam having seen him. So let's got. Yeah. And these and as usual, we always start with a patriot patriot because they support us for that low, we well know where we're that high supporters, I wanna be a member patriots. So that I could get my questions answered. You can actually donate to pay, John and then ask yourself a, that's I get on that list. That's what I will do myself. That would be funny. Oh, this is biking, bird says, hey, Adam, we've all heard of examples of items or procedures, getting discovered by accident microwaves penicillin, even chocolate chip cookies through all of your different experiments, was there an outcome or product that was produced that was applied to another test, or maybe even applications outside of the show. And this kind of Diddy invented. It was a long way it was a long walk around the block. That was a whole offramp exempted. The cloverleaf exact it back on. I have a question, but an autograph biographical story I. Actually, there's a word for that incites serendipity. Okay. Yes. A great word. There was a moment. I can't think of anything we invented by accident, but I do remember Lear on discovery. We are on Hawaii, doing on Mythbusters shooting duct tape island, and this was the conceit Jamie, and I get stranded on Jimmy or co-host from from so Jamie, Hyneman, and I get stranded on a deserted island at all we have is a palette of several hundred rolls of duct tape. What do we do? That's so so, so macgyver tuned into this episode. Right. That more things to do with duct tape. Zach. Okay. We made shelter. We've we actually made traps and caught chickens. We ended up making a twenty one foot long outrigger, canoe at with which we were able to get past the breakwater of the north shore of wa who. But there was a moment when Jamie was asked to make a still for distilling. Clean water. Sorry. Freshwater. From the saltwater. And so he was digging into the beach to make a whole and the procedure is you dig into the beach, make a whole it's going to be a kind of a damp hole on the beach. And you let sit in some plastic with Iraq in the middle and as water condenses from salt water collects on the inside of the membrane you've put you can catch it in a Cup and drink fresh water. However, Jamie noticed that when he dug in and tasted just the water that was being filtered through the sand that it was much less brackish salty. And so he got really excited about the idea that the sand of the beach itself was filtering the water. Interesting. And we explained that this was a whole episode about duct tape, and while this was really interesting. It really didn't fit within our narrative. Right. But he kept insisting until we ended up shooting this whole sequence with Jamie, which I think we put on the web, because that was the most interesting part of that day for him was the idea that the sand filtered, the salt out, but this is a classic thing of Jamie going. This is the thing, I'm interested in we're saying. That's not what the episodes about, like I don't care about what you're saying making knew about this. And now I love on my water gritty. Just a little bit of. All of my water out of my boot. Thank you. Cool story. Great story great story. This is John coal from Facebook who says between star talk and attested YouTube channel. I am in heaven. Hello, adam. How do you get over the makers equivalent of writer's block who? Great. Coal. You are thinking, my friend. So do you walk into your garage and say, I don't know when I'm gonna put together today totally. But more than that, I also hit moments where I spent a whole day assembling something, and realized that I've ascend assembled at Cairo backwards, and that I have to take the whole. Mikhail left braids on your hands are Cairo Chuck explain up so sorry. Chuck, what is Cairo? It's the it's, it's the mirror image without the mirror. Nice, ooh, that, that was way better than where you were going. The way to word. Something that is the mirror image of itself. Right. And then you hold them together in their mirror images and our meal acids are have one Cairo and the all have the same for all life on earth. And when we found amino acids in asteroids, we found that they were fifty fifty ooh of both Karalis. So we knew that it didn't care. And there wasn't one life form because aren't alive, yet that overran the other. So our Karalis the one Khairallah D in the whole world. And there's suspicions that if there was another life form with the other rally of our molecules that you wouldn't be able to metabolize them if you laugh because the, the molecules together together might not even be able to taste it, right. Oh, that's cool. And they would probably be like a guy, one half of his face will be black. Would be white. I'm really angry and sweet. And he's right. Exact. But simply of making whenever you have two parts that are Chiral. It can be a devilishly difficult assembly problem because everything looks very similar. But the order of operations is very precise. Tetris was kind of like that to, to the pieces of mirror, opposite other. Right. So regularly, and making you hit a spot where you three tetris so's thinking of you. So you, you hit a spot where you've screwed something up and you feel I feel really dejected about it. And I don't feel like moving forward. I don't feel like undoing the five hours of work. I've just done. Well, and I'm I'm angry. I'm pissed off. I feel sad about it. Funny, because I feel the same way, whenever put anything together from Kia. It's it's table upside down. Yes. Absolutely ripe for that kind of screwing up. But go ahead. Well, so how does everything fit in a flat box? Anyway. It is some this should not be able to fit in a flat. Balk. The Yankee a car. There's a, there's a line from a Mary Carr, who wrote liar's club wrote about about what she does what writer's block. And she says, if I can't think about what to write. I sit at my desk and a copywriters I love in longhand because my fidelity at the desk is to be writing, whether it's my own writing or not what size. It's a beautiful exercise take that to heart in the shop. If I can't think of what to make organize something in my shop, a drawer shelf a been I take something and I had just it because so you do shop time. No might wanna shop time, and I do so much more time than I ever did before because I realized, it's a deep part of that whole process of prepping the shop and prepping myself for the work. I do a little bit something like that. I have a book called the greatest wits of all time, and their phrases out of letters and correspondence from people that have extrordinary wit and I just read it that was awesome juxtaposition of words phrases or rhythm. And that just sort of. Rebaptized as me into a mood, right? That I then say okay, I'm ready. I feel like. That. So do you ever suffer writer's block me? No, no. I go through this exercise. Have a lot of books written by writers, who, like writing about writing also about whatever else they wrote about, right? That sentence. Very. Want to write this? And there's one sentence that I think I uttered this in our last recording a sentence from the great Gatsby this, this is a sense. Why new, I still have not become a great writer, and maybe never will. Oh, wow. Okay. I have to hear this now in his blue gardens. Men and girls came and went like moths. Amid the whispers, the champagne and the stars. That's a great. I read. That's why I am not anomalous gas. And he is reminded of one of my favorite pets from the great Gatsby his party. Yeah, you're. That's, that's, that's like a perfect simile put plus you mentioned and went off just as a mid very elegant, the whispers of the champagne and the stars in credit. You know, I didn't come here to feel inadequate. And yet and yet here we. So what are we saying? Reminds me of this line from Chandler where his hero Marlow is sitting in a waiting room for too long. And he describes the time passing us, the minutes tiptoed by their fingers to their lips. Lovling. Okay. So I have one, it's a quote from father seriously. What the hell are you still doing here? Out of the basement. That's talk every other. All right. All right. Here we go. Let's move on. We got we got Adam here because he's got a new book. Yeah. We would have them anyway, without the book make that clear. Okay. But he's made available to us by Simon and Schuster. Okay. For free. Right. He was like in New York doing media, and I guess we can't as media you do do. Yeah. Nice handle that every tools a hammer life is what you make it. I see what he did there. Yeah. Very cool, right? Right. So to every tools a hammer, actually those sound like something, Donald Trump would say, though I'm just saying. You know, the phrase of mine, he's grabbed his I reject your reality and substitute, my own. Very nice. That's a quote from you. That is actually quoted. No. He hasn't. Okay. I love it. All right. Let's take Mitch marris, who comes to with the words with the names today, because their regular name, regular regular racist. Can you get I can get along? I'm just letting you know. All right. But you're right. That is it's extremely, what do you call it presumptive? Here we go. Mitch Mars from Instagram. Ms Mars from Instagram wants to know this, what is the most important tool ever invented. That's for the both of you what an interesting little question. Very simple, little question. But very interesting. I'll answer for it because I want him to bring closure. Yeah. So, so when I was younger, I said, well, this crescent wrench is really useful, right? Because you can adjust it and, and then I discovered the miter saw. No, no, no, no. The, the vice grip, vice grip. And I so I've done gonna heaven vise-grip and then and then you got better than vice grip. Yes. The most important tool is money to pay somebody. Became important to. Plumbing? I'm gonna hire a plumber. It's going to be my tool kit for that. That you may have just answered the question. Okay. I have to say in the circle light travel in crescent. Wrench is known as a nut corner around her and the vice groups are known as the professional nut corner rounder. Okay. They can mess up. Don't get me wrong. I love both your Hex and removing the edges to until. Point around her. I, I to go to the simplest, I mean, one of the six simple machines, the lever, I feel like the ability to move heavy objects with, with the mechanical advantage and the lever, the lever the deliver exists before the wheel or any rollers to me, is our communities, who said, give me a lever and a place to stand and I can move the world think he's leaving. He just give me a place to stand. Give me a place over. He I think he was describing the course. But I'm saying he that was implicit. Give me a lever Anna place just Kimmy of San and I can move the world beautiful. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Next question. All right. Good stuff. Okay. Lever. I'll give you a lever reliever. Hey we go. Next question is the next question from wom-? One woman shop one woman. Shop will move shop. Yes, some problematic. Brain injury. Right. What can produce high Neilan Adam, you guys are both my heroes, which would you say, we'll be the more important for the future of invention. Good old-fashioned, mechanical know how or advances in material science, I e inventing, a new type of suspension bridge that is stronger and lighter versus discovering, stronger and lighter titanium alloy. Okay. We're in time to answer that. Oh. When you go. More when we come back the makers dishes cosmic. This episode of star talk radio is brought to you by my radar, the world's most popular radar weather app with over thirty five million downloads with the my radar at you get instant access to the weather around you keeping you ahead of the storm. And now with my radars at Vance rain alerts they'll notify you when the rain will stop and start down to the minute with accuracy crazy enough to patent. Download my radar for free today for is Android and windows. Bringing these space inside down to earth. You're listening to start talk. Back star talk, Adam Savage, the one and only missed busters fame and he's he's running on his own making stuff. He's got a new book out called every tools a hammer life is what you make it see what he did there that he did that. I got Chuck nice with me. Yes, we're doing 'cause Macquarie's before we went to break, we had a question from wamu shop who says. Hi Neilan Adam, you guys are both my heroes. Which would you say will be the more important for the future of invention? Good old fashioned mechanical how or advancements in material science good, old fashioned mechanical know how we are always going to be advancing a material science. And there will sometimes be things that we cannot replicate. Because we lose technology or we forget a process. But as long as we have a deep foundation and mechanical knowledge in making things in the and the roots of the physics of putting stuff together, we can utilize those advances, and we can adjust to the changes in the available materials. As they come. Wow. Great kind of agree with. I'm agreeing fifty percent. Oh, okay. I I'm, I'm into material science. It is one of the most under appreciated unheralded branches of science in this world. Okay. All right. If you go back fifty years. Hardly any I'm, I'm not bragging about this advance. I'm just citing it as a difference in our lives fifty years hardly, anything was made of plastic correct and almost everything is made a plastic today and it's working out. Great for many things. If you don't have to throw it away. Okay. It's the plastic is stronger. It's more reliable than other materials and you can mold it and just think of the things that having simple, quote standard mechanical knowledge would is. So what that, look what this material can do with their, their materials now that have memory of shape they once had. Okay, so you can deform leave on then you'd like wet hit and then it goes back to the previous shape. Got nothing nothing in your lab. Nothing in your garage is ready for that, but, but within the one is better than the other mechanical knowledge can push humanity forward. On its own whereas material science can't necessarily good materials. You don't need the mechanical. Into the material is south totally. Me and the author gone. We actually. So as an aside, we just I just finished a new show for the science channel called savage builds in which I built absurd things every week in the first episode, we made a suit of iron man armor in three D printed. Titanium speaking of material science, I discovered that when you three D print titanium, you can attenuate its grain structure, so that it is far stronger than normal, titanium because he will give it these super tight little crystalline grand closer. Yeah. Wow. Where we're except that makes denser seems to be in this case. No. It's still forty five percent weight of steel. Okay. Okay. Stronger storm may denser, you would lose some of the value of being right? Yeah. No, this stuff was amazing. We had potato chip than pieces. They were bulletproof bullets slid right off of this minute. Is this something that was already discovered? Using three D printer titanium in their jet engines. Right now, absolutely. No. That you've found for yourself. I was warmer out, right? There's an amazing engineering school called the Colorado school of mines. Yes. Everyone knows those are incredible. And I worked directly with them and their additive manufacturing department. Okay. So he just figured out a brilliant, new material to make armor for nights. Six hundred years late. That's great. I can't wait to see what new material. It's coming down the pipe. And what how that might transform how we live, I think about that all the time. Yeah. All right. All right. Excellent question once again from our listening audience, and just just for the point of we trance we transitioned from cheap. It's made of plastic to this made a plastic fine. I don't have any problem the last forever, right? That with that, that happened in, we're about the same age that happened in our lifetime it did. Okay. I totally great. Just just one smack you down to just the octave gone will decide this. Okay. Zimmer note, the I'm sure they do. And there's a lot of you have see fan. Ven diagram is. Right now. There's a guy calculator and quays. All right now, this is Mike, okay? This is Mike poo mocking mocking making pump making. I don't know. Okay. Mike's these people, I think they're just grew up with you. Really, they're like, Chuck, we're going to just make up names. All right. We got Mr. savage. What is something that you would think will be possible to build in the future? That is now considered science fiction. Very great question. Broom temperature superconducting. Wow. While you went for a big one now I'm really excited about the speaking of material science. I'm really excited phen- came back that back to me. That's true. Cereal science. All right. So, so, so so, so that's your, that's your. That's my answer room. Temperature superconductor is going to be I believe it will happen in our lifetime. I think that. And what's that happens? Will we actually be able to have, you know, spaceships that stop and hover and I don't know way? At least we'll be actually will probably one of the things will learn significant amount about is the is our brains is with the processing power of our brains. There's a I feel like as computers, become more powerful. They're going. Become a real interesting window into consciousness and sentence. And what it is to think about the thinker. Nice. I hadn't quite put her to put that way. But now that I have I agree one hundred percent because it's hard for the brain to study itself. But if we make computers that are becoming better better approximations of our brain now, we have something we can study. And so we would ask them Totta come to an understanding of our brain simply by making our computers that much more complex, possibly one day achieving consciousness themselves and becoming overlords. I think if we ever made a machine conscious the first thing it's going to say to us as what did you do? True. All right. Next question. All right. Cool could house Macquarie's version talk. Let's see. Now, here's somebody, he calls himself or herself. The dragon horde of dice dragon horn of day. You go. Momma, probably did not give that person that name. No. But I think it's I think our name is Kate because it says at Kate Nater. Okay. Hey for Adam since I know you do 'cause play what is the most complex mechanical prop costume you've ever tried to build like a prop or costume that had no moving parts or could collapse expand or something that you may have tried to just recreate? Did you make transformers proud ever? Oh, gosh. No, I have not done a transformers costume a few years ago. I've been obsessed with armor since nineteen Eighty-one when I went and saw caliber with my ex caliber. Five favorite films amazing. And then I learned disturbingly. Yeah. The fact you're about to tell me go ahead. Oh, really? No, no. Maybe not. I don't know. The fact please hammer private conversation with my man there. Okay. So Excalibur and the early nineteen eighties. John Berman, early film, that had Patrick Stewart in Patrick Stewart Liam niece, Liam Neeson's in and abriel burn. And so is Helen Mirren Helen, they're all in his movie. Okay. It's, it's the story told. So thank you much later. I realized I think half the reason why I like the movie was because of the soundtrack. Oh, is very powerful Wagner area n-, and that which is not Wagner, incomes from Carmina, Burana, very emotional, energetic music that you just feeling every scene. And I thought to myself, maybe the movies, not so good. But the music was amazing. And that completely compensated for it. I watched it recently, it's still super campy, and still really impressively great. Let did you watch it on mute? Subtitles try that and not a play control. Chuck. Okay. So what's your aunt? So I've been obsessed with armor since then, and I actually when I was a junior in high school in nineteen eighty four I went to build a suit of armor out of roofing. Aluminum with my dad and warrant to school on Halloween and passed out of heat. Exhaustion in third period. Zola. Pst just up north at sleepy hollow high school, aunts, your Twitter handle. Don't try this exactly. And at home years ago, I called up Terry English who's master armor that built all the armor for Excalibur. He lives in the southern tip of England and Cornwall. And I went to his studio couple summers ago and spent ten days embedded with him as a system while he and I wanna practice me a suit of king Arthur's armor, from scallops apprentice wasn't imprinting, and he made me, my lifetime goal suit of armor of Arthur's armor, from Excalibur pretty intense. It was so intense. It was amazing. He lives in this incredible of overgrown, shop in Cornwall. He's so he is you in England yet. There's only one per continent. I, I don't know. That was my favorite mechanical prop construction, but it was not it was not electron IQ, or anything else chemical hammering aluminum all day chant chain mail, and everything. Yeah. Yup, absolutely. Wow. That's pretty wild. Man. That had congratulations on that. Have it. How do you get through TSA? I actually I when I whatever they were known back then. No, I made I actually took it to New Zealand last year to make a little film, with Peter Jackson about it where demon terrace. My arm off. We called it a farewell to arms. Weird real quickly here. I carried armor with me. I was thinking this is this is priceless. To me. I can't really ensure this. So I checked it as luggage, with a GPS transceiver in my luggage. So I could monitor it being loaded onto my plane. That's pretty well felt if the airline was going to tell me they couldn't find it. I wanted to know that I could find goes down. They can't find blackbox. Holloway. Oh idea, why all these people are dead. But we do have an awesome. Oh my God. Thank do. Wow. Man. That's, that's pretty wow. You're far weaker than I ever. Wait a minute. Yes, you are making home movies. Occasionally for those who didn't know the Lord of the rings series was mostly filmed in New Zealand checks. Jackson was inspired to one of the key inspirations from in making Lord of the rings was Excalibur. So I'm not the only one who likes counter top five movies film, but other four really weird. Not that, but that's in there. That's sweet. Okay. I can't say it's one of my favorite. Okay. I'm I'm not cool enough. Help. Here we go. They're one of the things these five movies like the only five movies I've ever not only seen zillion times, but sat through the director's narration Ariza right threat, Chris comics objectors, commentary. Because you have to like the movie so much that they don't even need to watch this next iteration of it. And here's somebody just talk through it. Yup. Nice. That was well, you've also seen it that many times that's part, that's, that's how you earn the director's cut at that point. Exactly. Yeah. Right. I gotta know what are the other form. Yeah. I do. Really? Yeah. Because if that's if that's part of the top five there's four. The movies number one record number one, the matrix. Okay. That's I remember to all that jazz without okay? Yeah. That's a good one. Roy Scheider sort of playing Vaas. Okay, three the conversation. Such good. Now. Oh. Four couple o- the conversation conversation. Four two toss up between conversation with the man and the woman. Yes. Okay. Movin moving. Conversation. And then there's probably a toss up here. But the what's I story mazing that's great. And, and then x caliber, I think is fifth out of those five I look, I say, there's at least nine films in my top. That's good top five lists actually can go quantum and. Dimension that you've got timelines on your on your. So this five are so unlike each other, and there's what an eclectic mix really weird. But I totally so I used to dance. Okay. So hence, the Fosse have you done dancing with the stars. No. That's, that's so I love. Is okay. On joe. When I was dancing. No one was publishing books and other. I don't need to dance anyone. Okay. So, so. You love you love. Nobody. Okay. But people have come a long land. Okay. Okay. All right. So, so there's that and I, I wrote a column for magazine under the pen name of Merlin. So I have extra interest in Merlin or Therion legends and I have the Mallory book in valium. You know. So there's that matrix, of course is the makeshift one. Of course. Obviously has to be there to other movies. And the conversation which is so so well done at mazing and no explosions. There's no chase scenes. It was a story well done. And so, so there I am. Hey those are my five now. Listen. So there you go people now you know what you're doing. Netflixing chill with meals. That's weird list. What a weird list. Story is New York. It's, it's the city. It's I'm half Puerto Rican. My mother's name is frontier Seattle Tyson. That's her name, west side story is such a masterpiece and a masterpiece masterpiece masterpiece. And while I don't know how to compose music, if I ever could I'm imagining that I could compose the music. Story. Wow. That's where I'm thinking. That's what I would reach for and that would be your north star. That was my. That'd be my north star. I like beautiful. He's beautiful Adam more when we come back of the makers Bishen of cosmic queries. Hey star talk fans. When was the last time you visited the redesigned star talk shop online? We've added our first star talk local enamel pen, plus three new cosmic bracelets, one from ours, one for the dark side of the moon and one four wait for it the light side, plus, we restocked, all of our official star talk shirts including our. Let's make America smart again. Neil and Bill dropping science and our star talk universe observatory shirts, just click on the shop tab at star. Talk radio dot net. And visit the star talk shop to order your official star talk merchandise today. Unlocking the secrets of your world everything orbiting around it. This is story. Back for our third and final segment, and I don't want this show too. Omaker cosmic queries. Addition with Adam Savage who make stuff every tools, a hammer life is what you make it. And this is, you know, it's, it's a it's a window into your brain. Oh, yeah, there's some organized. The fact your photos in it. Thanks to think your publisher for agreeing to the. Always agree to put pictures in their tons into the manuscript after we were after we had the manuscript prove they said okay, so you're responsible for all the permissions. Oh, wimps. When it comes to that. Get me started. Yeah. So, so definitely so next question what was that? All right. This was main from Minnesota who said as a builder. I remember failed projects more than the successes. So tell me about failures relative to successive. We talk about this a lot. These days, failures are really popular word and Silicon Valley says, you know, build fast and break things we talked about educating kids, we talked about teaching them how to fail and I have a particular take on this, because I think failures of fine word whether it's a version of that from the nineties eighties, which was shocking when we first heard it was. If it ain't broke break it break it. Yes. So that way you might invent something better than the thing. You had before. And just because it worked doesn't mean it's the best version of what it could indeed end up with a lot of broken. That's not created always. All right. So we don't really mean failure wrong turns on the path to get to a success are not failures there, simply iterations, and I I'm here and it's not a euphemism or anything. Oh my, my, my smells like one what I wanna preach is that both science and art are ater it of processes that include tons of wrong turns in the wrong turns out lives, they're part of that process, and we go up the path, like okay, this isn't the past. So let's go back to the fork and continue down another path. And see if that's the path, and so, yes, I also remember my failures more than my success, because that's where I learned the failures or the, the, the failures the wrong turns, I took to get to the right turns are the are the places that I learned the most about myself about how to build things about how to recover from those moments, you'll say about rocket launch failures that they're not failures that just experiments. Rich data. It's always the guy says my experiment was a failure. No scientists says no, the design a negative result is actually useful information. Publishable information. We, we don't have you have to say that when somebody else's paying for. But all of our I was just reading an article the other day about how, how journals publishing journals, don't highlight. No results. They don't value it in the. Yeah. Yeah. We should. It's a problem. That's true. I never thought of that. But yeah, there is a great deal of normal use whatnot today tells the next person what this is what I did. It didn't work out. And now I don't have to waste time going down that because I increase that is equally as important. No. That makes a lot of has a new hero of the recent months who may have been responsible for sending us down the wrong because his his his his mantra was failure is not an option. This was from Apollo thirteen and this is a gene Kranz. And so it failures not an option. And then became America, we're not going to fail. And then we lost track of the value of failure. We lost. The most surprising thing I learned from doing Mythbusters for thirteen years, was, what how surprisingly creative the scientific discipline is, and how it MIR's the creative discipline to me conducting and building experimental methodologies is every bit as creatively satisfying as making a sculpture painting, painting or writing a agree hundred percent. But I think it's better when you call it a wrong turn the way you put it that way. Because if you think about it just from the from a standpoint, everybody can identify drivers. They reiver's standpoint when you make a wrong term how many times have you done that and discovered something that you really like mechanical gardens? Oh, my God is the sole of stand up comedy. Oh, absolutely. Right. Gatorade, interim always every joke. Even listen is the same process. Even when the joke works s you go back and try to crack it open and see how it works, even better works. No. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. Wow. Lane. What a great question. You're a hero lane. That's what you are. You are. All right. This is Chris goes to the park. Thank you, Chris. Alright. Thanks, chris. He's. Hey Arum, are there any inventions, your team created on Mythbusters that you have kept or that you might still use today? PS. Love your show. Growing up inspired me to study engineering now engineer do. Oh, ooh. Oh, always to hear. There's nothing that we kept from the public on Mythbusters, except for one thing who carry grand Tori, Santa question. Do you mean? Is there something you may not miss that the public never saw or something? Something we came up with, or that we discovered on Mythbusters that we have somehow kept from the public eye. It's not how I read he met. I like that. The or anything that you event or came up that you're like, wow, this is so good. I'm actually gonna put it to use in my life. Right. That's how I read it. Yeah. Wow. Yes. I mean, I really it was the more the process of telling the stories on Mythbusters. Wait. That's not as interesting question as when you thought of. Hey, Tori were testing the Kerry, sorry, my co-host Mythbusters, Kari. Byron, tori. Belay chain grant Imahara. They were testing a story that involved, a commonly available, commonly available material that is close to a description as I'm going to get and its explosive properties and what they determined with this. Use case scenario was so spectacularly terrifyingly explosive that we agreed to destroy the foot of the explanation and never tell how he got to that. And I thank you for that. Yeah. No bomb squads the world over. No. What we figured out on our own right? And are thankful that we've decided not to put that in the episode. So, yeah, it's like engineer Ben just founded on. Cotton balls chewing. Gum could actually bring down the World Trade Center. Like what? Yeah. No. That's crazy. Yeah. So, so the answer's yes, yes. So you quarantine that information did and just sit to hell with it. The world doesn't need it will not be better for this bit of knowledge between us. What was the what was what was the material just between you and I? All right. I don't want to know beyond because I'm I can't be trusted. I write this is ring a milley, who says, how do you create new things that haven't before been thought of, in other words, what is your process for creative discovery? You know, is there any process that says, you know what boom, I don't know if there's I don't know if it's reasonable to think about something as I want to make something that's never been thought of. I don't think we have that the choice to, to sequester an invention or build or something creative into a category before it's been made and everything we made is based on everything that we've seen. So just as is it Newton, it said, we stand on the shoulders of giants, just as Newton says that we, we all do, it's called farther than others. It is because I stood on the shoulders of giants who've come before me, and that is one of the greatest descriptions of culture that. Anyone's ever Penn? That's exactly what's happening when I was, you know, when I was seventeen I saw alien it took me, five years to get the aesthetic of HR Giger out of my system, I had to recapitulate the aesthetics that he was doing because I found it so powerful until I kind of understood it that recapitulation. So that person is what he HR designed the alien we all. Like we all Turkey as e German designed all of the creatures and alien technology from the original movie alien, which Ridley Scott's first science fiction on, of course, with Sigourney Weaver, Sigourney Weaver, Tom Skerritt, hating Stanton. One of that's one of my top five an amazing film. I mean, it's got the core film, not a science fiction movie. But my my issue with it was at the alien still had like a mouth jaw teeth. But he had a mouth in a mouth. Pretty creative. No, no. I'm just thinking most life forms on earth. Do not have a mouth and teeth like trees and worms and butterflies and this sort of thing. So I if you're gonna have a complete alien you should be more creative than even that. Like the blob nineteen Fifty-eight Steve McQueen movie. Yes. That's got. No bones. Nothing. It's. Terrifying, blah, blah completely terrifying. And it would eat your blood suck your blood, and you know, in the blob, I land, color it was who's transparent. It only turn red after eight is first victim. Yes, you didn't know that. I didn't know that. I know. And it can come through the vents into the fifth. Yeah. So that to me that's creativity. Yeah. Okay. So I, I don't think that you can say to yourself, I wanna think of something that's never been thought. I think you have to just keep on thinking, what do I what do I want that doesn't exist? What do I want to make extent that, that I can't obtain or I can't get? Also, your urges are guiding your creativity totally. Oh, absolutely at that. Actually. That's what this book is to me. It's a permission slip to everyone to follow those weird urges, I call them secret thrill. So you shouldn't titled it follow your weird urgent. Bestseller. Check too. That's a damn good time to cover. Throw it on the I know what I'm signing in your book. So, so we have to go into lightning round, okay? Okay. Okay. I need from you sound bite answers gray. Are you ready? Chuck go here we go. This is Libya weights from Instagram. She wants to know how long does it take to usually come up with truly new idea. That is impossible to quantify next go. Canas liquors. What's the longest shortest time? It took you to come up with a new idea. Oh. The res fully quantified range between one minute and seventeen hours. Okay. Good you go Alex out of his ass. Sorry we were looking for today. Wrong answer. Go. We go connects Canessa liquor. Where that does I think somebody made what is your most unique out of left field? Inspiration that has ever happened to you or even surprised you that is we're Where'd you find inspiration, a place that you never thought you would good. Oh, wow. I'm I'm going to need time to think about that one. I don't have a soundbite after the end of the show. Okay. Here we go Julie for let me re we're that question. Maybe it's the same question. Among all your sources of inspiration. What has been the most fertile? Reading, actually always reading about the first experiment of something that was discovered. Breeding Fizeau speed of light experiment is so thrilling. Okay. Wow. What a great answer. The even better question sorry in Doppler Fizeau. It's a late nineteenth century early. He calculated the speed of light with a clockwork and mirrors. Okay. Very next day we go. This is Juliet from NBC is or from says, if you had unlimited resources and time, what would you Bill O build a spaceship, and I go to the moon, and then go to Mars limited resources at material yet, totally, I would start some interplanetary exploration. Beautiful love it office. I love that. All right. Last question. I don't think we have time we go final reflections. Chuck give me your final reflection. I am going to now pursue my weird urge. I am really happy. Don't go for permission to do so. Okay. Okay. Adam. Got this book, presumably the still stuff in you. That's not in this book, otherwise by the book, and we don't have to ever watch you again. Not in the book that we carry with us. Oh, wow. That all human beings really want to do is tell each other stories, and it's, it's that's science and art. It's how we understand the universe even if the storytelling is how to build something indeed, who like it. Very nice. So what I'd like to think if I can add to an earlier question about creativity to have thought to see what everyone else has seen, and think, what no one else is thought. That's a commonly invoked definition of genius. But maybe it's not genius that we're honoring their maybe it's hard work where you have a lot of dangling thoughts within you because you've read a lot of books, you've seen a lot of movies. You've spoken to a lot of people you've done a lot of tinkering, and they're sitting there waiting in your head. And then you walk. Amid all of these dangling parts and he'd say, give me two bits of that one part of that wind, part of this, 'cause they're vailable to you to draw from and out of that comes a brand new idea, a grant brand new object a brand new concept. So I think the people who are cited as the great inventors geniuses of the world are simply those who have more bits and pieces in their lives. Waiting to be assembled into something new. I totally agree. Very beautiful that you agree. 'cause I pull that from the cosmic perspective. Adam, thanks for being on star talk, Chuck, as always, always my man. You've been listening to possibly even watching this episode of star talk featuring Adam Savage, formerly of Mythbusters, and he just making stuff and he's got a science channel program. I can't wait to catch the name of it again. Savage built savage bills. Nice so angry. May June twelve twelve. Summer two thousand nineteen science shell. I've been your host Neal egress, and as always, I bid you to keep looking up.