20 Episode results for "Moma"

Working at MoMA: How Does a Museum Store Marketer Do Her Job?

Slate's Working

48:10 min | 1 year ago

Working at MoMA: How Does a Museum Store Marketer Do Her Job?

"The. You're listening to working the show about what people do all day. I'm your host, Jordan Weisman. And today, we are going to be wrapping up our series on life inside New York's museum of modern art. And of course, we will be exiting through the gift shop as you must. Now. When you think of a museum store, what usually comes to mind, magnets books. Most paintings on them some sort of Trump's good moma's a little bit different though because on top of its normal gift shop it also runs the moment designed store, which has locations in New York in Japan and online retail operation and sells everything from kitchenware to Tron IX to I n furniture, and even Kano's and the idea behind it is that everything you find there is supposed to be example of truly great design. So to get a sense of how the upper works. I talked with Maggie Perry. She's the Newseum associate director of retail marketing, and she explained to me she sort of a quarterback for a lot of different things. She. Her hands all over different parts of the stores off rations conversation starts off the fishery about design store, and how it was created. But pretty soon you're gonna hear about maggie's quest to find the world's most perfectly crafted toilet brush among other things. It was a delightful chat. And I hope you enjoy. What's your name? Am what do you do? My name is Maggie berry. And I am the associate director of marketing for moment. Design store at the museum of modern. Art MoMA design store is it's the museum store. Right. Well, part of it's the museum store, and then part of it's the design store. Those things different the way we like to think about it is the store within the museum is a museum store that would act as a traditional museum. Shop is cells are reproductions. It sells postcards. It sells many publications about artists within the museum's collection. And then we have designed stores we have two in the city, and we also have designed stores licensed in Japan, and the design stores are something that's much more unique in different than your average museum gift shop it sells furniture. It sells lighting it sells design objects paper goods, jewelry accessories, and a whole slew of other objects that you wouldn't necessarily find a regular museum gift shop, and which of those operations is actually more important at MoMA, which is the one the kind of command your his attention. I mean, they both really command the attention. But I think we like to think of it as the design store, and you know, the store that we have in SoHo or the store that we have. Across the street from the museum is sometimes the first entry point for people to the museum modern art. So the museum has about three million visitors each year and are designed stores have over four million people come through its doors each year. So sometimes those act as an entry point to MoMA design stores. You mean, the ones that are in the city or in Japan, not in the museum itself that not they actual proper museum store that number is inclusive of people at the proper museum stores. So but still it's a lot of people people another way to ask question is of the two which ones cut the moneymaker like which one can you talk about that? The I hate to say, but they both make a ton of money for the museum. Our I guess as a single location the website stored up moment dot org, which is moment designed store online is the number one sales driver of all of the individual locations between SoHo the design store across the street from museum and the museum store the online sales. Yes. You guys are IRRI Taylor's now to yes, that's it very much. So you're part of the marketing team. Yes. So what does that actually mean marketings broad first of all it's marketing for both this physical stores as well as the website. And it's making sure that the customers are having the best experience while they're there that their understanding the product and understanding our unique value proposition as a marketing person, what specific kinds of responsibilities to have what what actually makes up your job. I like to think of myself a little bit as a quarterback. So I tied a lot of different people together. And so there will be a Colonel event idea. And I make sure that it's properly being executed untold in stores. I make sure that it has a home and its own voice online. I make sure that there are some times events supporting it that we're sending emails about it that were marketing and social media and really tying and bringing the products to life and all of what we call channels. So your roles to kind of touch all parts of a product coming in. In coming into the store and being sold in the store and being promoted from the store exactly one way to put it. So how do you pick the stuff or how do you find the stuff? Let's start there. How how do you actually source things for moma's design stores and museum store? Right. So we have a buying team that is comprised of maybe ten or twelve people, and they travel the world going to trade shows meeting with artists finding new designers. They are scouring crowd sourcing websites. And they are finding cool and unique products to bring into our design stores. So there's sort of an industry ecosystem. There's like a museum store like circuit. I wouldn't even call it specific to the museum store we are going to the same shows that major United States retailers are going to. It's it's not specifically to museum store design shows there is a Parisian show called obget, and you know, any major furniture or design. Taylor is showing up that object in Paris. And we are one of the many people that are visiting those trade shows, I think maybe I need to step back that more because you're saying you'll go to a furniture show when I was walking through earlier and just kind of perusing, I I think as electronics as I did lamps. So how'd you decide what kind of stuff you might sell at the store? So this is part of a bigger story of like why moment design store and the museum founded in nineteen twenty nine and in nineteen thirty to the museum started the first ever in the world architecture and design department. So never before. Then had a museum had a department dedicated to that and as a result of it. The museum started doing good design shows in the thirties. Forties and fifties or familiar with the design shows sort of maybe possibly, but please explain okay? So Edgar Kaufmann junior was a curator at the museum in the early years, and he would host design competitions where people like rand Charles Eames would sa-. Admit furniture designs based on a prompt that he had and then a manufacturer for big department stores in the United States with them produce these items. So it's actually where things like the Eames chair came about, right and key iconic lighting pieces so in the nineteen thirties forties and fifties. There were these design competitions. And there would be price tags on the products in the exhibitions that people could then by afterwards. So felt like a really natural fit for the museum to have a store to sell these products in and then once every x months kind of thing, and then in the nineteen eighties MoMA design store as a an idea, and a brand really came to life in the way that you know, it now but going back to the way we think in consider products for the design store, we look at a set of eight different filters, and they run the gamut is it an innovative function that the object uses is it innovative in design. Does it have an innovative technology is? It used for educational purposes. Does it relate to the museum's collection? Is that in the museum's collection? I'm not sure if you're aware, but we actually sell objects in our design stores that are part of moma's permanent collection. I was about to ask that specifically because you think of the typical museum store, and it's magnets, and mugs and scarves paintings and prints of the paintings that you've just walked through the galleries and seen, and obviously there's some of that mothers know, it's it is a museum store, but I'm wondering how how much of that is part of the mission is sort of like repurposing what you guys have in the permanent collection and kind of selling and reselling it. It's not the biggest focus, but if there's something in the museum's collection that we think is important to the story that we're trying to tell in the design store will absolutely bring it. And there's a good example right now, there's a show on Yugoslavian architecture in the museum, and there is a lounge chair in the show called the wrecks lounge. Chair that they brought in to show furniture design during that time period. And we brought that chair in to the design stores because it had a deep connection to what was happening in the museum. So it's not every piece in the design collection by no means, but it's important ones that makes sense towards a story that the museum is trying to tell but outside of the way of like, your typical coffee mug with an art reproduction on it. Right. We like to think that we're sort of elevating that a little bit. I think an another interesting thing about what makes like why MoMA design store too. And it sort of has to do with our point of view, right? You go to other stores, and they're going to have like a selection of mugs and a selection of magnets in selection of scarves. And that's not the way that we think about our sort man's? We sort of liked to think about the best single one piece with within any category. Right. And we're not going to you know, try and have every type of flatware or dish wear sitting in our store. We're going to find like the one that. Epitomizes the story that we're trying to tell or good design as an idea. And I I have to ask how do you decide how much flatware you're going to sell or how how many lamps you're going to sell like what how do you make that decision? So it really changes based on what we find. It's not like, we're like, you know, what you need to do X amount of money in sales for clocks this year. It's like how many great clocks do the buyers find in the marketplace. And you know, if the answer is none like, we won't have really great clocks one year. And if the answer is five great clocks, we're gonna make sure that they all tell a different story. Right. One's going to be a digital clock. One's going to be clock. That has a ball that floats that can be set to you know, a certain date. Let's say that you're counting down to December thirty first every day that ball will move until it reaches December thirty first. So we wouldn't have ten of the same clock. Are there certain kinds of things though that like us? No, you're running retail operation. They're going to sell you gotta have certain amount of. Like, it's their any categories like that. It's funny. Like right now a category that's on fire for us is organization. So like anything that has to do with homework innovation right now. We have this recycling bin that is a plastic version of a Brown paper bag and they're flying. And so it's like how do we capture that magic we need more organization pieces, but that's not how I are buying system works. It's like they're gonna look, and maybe they will find really great organization pieces that pit him is good design and check our boxes for design filters. But maybe they won't. And I think our business has to learn to be okay with that that like, you know, we're not looking at this like some mass retailer and able to develop a pro like, you know, we do develop our own products. But we're not doing it in the same way as you know, at crate and barrel war design within reach. So you send your buyers off into the world searching. And then they bring stuff back. They bring stuff back and. It is the most fun. I was going as where do you come into the picture? Yeah. So they go on their buying trips. And they're probably traveling four times a year. But there are two big seasons that they're buying for fall and spring and they come back and they organize all of their new products by buyer. So we have somebody that does all lighting and home furnishings, and home decor and kitchen and dating, and then we have another buyer that does all kids in technology. We have a buyer that does papers and prince, and we have another buyer that does personal accessories. So they come back from their trips, and they organize meetings of a little bit of a show Intel to some of the key retail stakeholders, and they're like, we found this water bottle, and it's or you a key retail stakeholder. But I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily say that about myself, but I'm in the room. So maybe I'm not like key retail stakeholder. But you know, I have a point of view and position on some of the stories that we're going to tell from these products, the finding term. They're the they come back. They've got their loot. They have their loot. And we do a first look pictures of lewd. I assume sometimes physical Lou to they actually they're not bringing a whole chair into the surprised. They've got the. They've got the should take you to our floor. But there's this like giant red classic chair sitting outside my desk right now that is like everybody that walks by has to touch it and sit in the chair, and it's something that we're looking to bring in for the spring season or usually test running that like what we test run all of the product that we bring into the store. So like, here's a really great story. I said to the tech buyer. I was like guys I'm having major clock issues. I used to have my clock built into my cable provider like it was part of the box. And then I got a new box. And there was no digital clock in every clock that I purchased was too bright. And I'm like, it's like I wake up in the middle of the night. And all I see is this light. And I was like you have to find a good alarm clock. And they went to market, and they found this like really brilliant alarm clock. That's dental, and you can set it from your phone and it connects to the alarm clock rather than like fussing with buttons. And they like came back in there like you need to test this and see if it's worthy for us to bring in. So they're not doing that. With just me. They're doing that. With people all over. I'm like, I need a really beautiful toilet brush. Right. Like the most random requests was at natural request mine. Yes, I'm very particular. Very specific aesthetic. Yeah. I mean, they're not that beautiful generally speaking, they're not well designed, but if we're if anybody's able to bring in a beautiful well designed to brush, it will be us done this yet more on the search on the Surya. So there's a chance at some point moments is going to sell toilet brush, maybe five anything to do with it. That's like very close Guggenheim's golden toilet. I think it'd be them. Okay. Wait. So you just kind of make personal request question. Your buyers is that everyone in the department does everybody in the department, but it gets them thinking, right? Our buyers one of the lenses that they're looking at is how we can solve problems for people. So if the retail staff were museum staff or stores societas like, you know, what we keep on having people come in asking for acts like how do we make that happen come to life? Our buyers are going to go out into the world and try and find it, but I'm sort of getting derailed my personal request for. Reminds me of sorta like hell editorial works to magazine. It's like someone has some personal issue with like, finance, or, you know, their kids or something and we're sitting around at slate and someone will throw it until like our chat room, and suddenly that becomes a story. It's the same sort of semi for. So that's kind of helped bring your clock or toilet brush issue. We'll suddenly turn into a merchandising mission. And I mean, this is maybe getting a little bit off topic. But sometimes we have these products, and like what happens in a meeting is. We're all riffing together and it comes to life in marketing material. So we have this shower cap that's called the shower cap. It has like four inches in the middle of it. And it's really innovative technology as far as like, the traditional shower cap goes that's been probably been around forever. And like, how do you innovate the shower? First of all, I probably don't wear shower cap, but I. The way it sits on your head. Like, you know, when you're like moving around, it doesn't come on. And I have like a generous amount of hair, and so like to try and keep that into a traditional shower cap is really hard work. So anyways, we're sitting in a meeting, and I tested this product. It's this shower cap keeps your hair up, and then when it hits the water normally on a regular plastic shower cap, you hear this like really terrible like water hitting plastic noise in the shower cap is very quiet when the water hits it, and I'm like, I love it for all these reasons than the team was like we need to put that all in an Email and say like, you know, Maggie our marketing guru loves the shower cap because of this and they flew out after we sent that he mil- I'm sort of a measuring the sham wild guy. That is a classier version way more elegant version of that. But you know, we do staff picky. Also ended up in the museum store or the design store. Exactly. A shower. Cap can end up there. A potentially a golden toilet brush. Definitely not golden one wouldn't be Trumpian a well-functioning one and also a beautiful chair that's been sold by that was part of a Yugoslavian architecture movement. So it's really sort of it's everything. Yeah. That's a good range rate there. So what are the factors? You're kind of weighing is there like a checklist you're going down? Or what is it? You're talking about. When you see the chair come in at I look we're looking at a bunch of different things, we're looking at functionality. We're talking about price relative to the object on we're talking about. Why MoMA, you know, if we're going to bring in this beautiful, piano. Like, why does it belong here, and what makes it special? So yes, it was a piano is. Yes. And it's amazing. It's a rolling Keila, piano. That is a electric piano, and it's very slim minimal beautiful piece of furniture. But the weight of the keys are really incredible that they feel very much like a. Piano. And it's priced at you know, four thousand dollars, and we like are they fly? And I think like the point about the four thousand dollar piece is like we can democratize good design at every price point. It doesn't always need to be a four thousand dollar piano. It can be. Inexpensive shower cap or ten dollar knife. That does a great job at spreading butter. I think that that's like just part of what makes us unique in different. So you're you're sitting around I guess you guys were trying to make a design case. Yeah. So we're trying to make a design case. Because the next thing that the buyers do is that is that the buyer making it to you guys. Or is it all of you? The buyers are making it to us. And then we're having conversations around it asking questions, but ultimately, it's up to the buyer like, you know, there's a really great. I don't know if I want to share this, but there's a inflatable banzai tree. That's like a banzai tree, but it's inflatable. And I just like I don't get this product. Right. I'm like, I don't get it. But the buyers really believe in this product, and they think is wonderful meditative. And like, you know, there's this idea that bonsai tree takes a long time to grow or that they die and like an inflatable banzai is like perennial. So you know, I will say like, I'm not sure it inflatable banzai and they got the final. They don't get the final word the. Curator's got the final word, and we'll get to that in a second interesting. But there is this like sneak peek that we're doing and we're seeing all the products for the first time, and then whatever's whittle down then goes to the museum curator's in the architecture and design department. We'll get back to the show in a second. But I work from our sponsor the right hire make a huge impact on your business. That's why it's so important to find the right person where do you find that individual? You can try posting on job for its. But can you really be sure they'll see the job? Instead, find them on Lincoln as the world's largest professional network people. 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I mean, do you guys test everything does everyone at the table test? Everything to all of you. There was a there was a spark. That's a product that MoMA designed itself real her sale. Yes. The Rahman sport. Yes. Okay. Did everyone eats soup with the sport? Everybody doesn't eat soup with the sport. But I'd say the key buyer is testing things out. And then it'll go to somebody specific like if there's somebody that's really interested in baking. They do a lot of like the cookware testing, right and our IT team for the museum. They do a lot of testing of the tech pieces because they're far more sophisticated in it than me, or, you know, a bunch of other people in the department goes around of testing the buyers may case y'all hash over it. And then the curator's come into the somehow. Yes. So then after you know, the buyers see the physical products in our space. We take a first look they collect the products for a review with curator's where they have the final say. On whether or not we bring products in based on their quality based on their originality. And so each buyer goes in separately with two of the architecture and design curator's, and they talk and ponder end hub consider all of the pieces that we bring him for the season. I'm one of those conversations. I mean, I think that they're generally like interesting conversations and people make the case. But at the end of the day of curator is like this doesn't make sense for our store, or you know, I think that this version of it is better they get the final say do the buyers just make the argument that listen, this might not be quite what you want design wise, but it's going to sell like mad, or like, this is is that acceptable argument that the basic retailing. I mean, maybe it's an acceptable argument. But oftentimes they'll go back and try and find more information to validate the case with the curator's Ohka how how picky are the curator's. They're not too picky. But they definitely help. How do they reject something? That's that's the specific question. I wonder they reject a Porsche. Of every single season. I guess I don't have off hand like a percentage right or how often do turn things get turned down or anything that you were rooting for that got turned down you remembered question. I have to think about that. I'm not sure some things that route root for will sometimes get turned down. But for various reasons like it'll cost too much to ship it in from Japan more. It's too big to fit in the store some things like that. One security has had their say what happens we solidify our plans for the assortment coming in the next season. And I'm a couple of things happened after that we build a catalog so MoMA design store sends a physical mail piece twice a year, we send three in the spring, and we send three in the fall plus a gift guide Cadillac that is marketing person. I assume that is a major focus for it's actually at the heart of a lot of what we do. Because it's the first time that we start collecting images of all of our products. It starts at. Like how much we place a purchase order for and how much we buy based on where it is in the catalog if it's on the cover of the catalog we're going to need to buy more than if it's tucked into the middle of the book on a quarter of a page. It starts our storytelling because we start gathering information about every single product. That's in the catalog to start telling stories in the product copy. It's starts the pricing conversation. How much we're going to retail things for but that really is the heart of planning for the season. And then at the same time, we rank all the products in terms of it's like how many thing is sale or how great you think it is score things by two values. One is it's quality the value. So how much it connects to the museum's mission? Right. If it's in the museum's collection or supernova, tive technology or is very press worthy. Right. It'll get a high quality of ranking. And then we do a quantitative ranking. So like how much we think we're going to drive out of this product and the things that have. A high quality of and a high quantitative get the most love from a marketing perspective, and then other things with a high qualitative, but maybe a little bit lower quantitative still get a lot of coverage. Because like, you know, that's the buzz worthy stuff that we think are important to the fabric of our story. And then the other pieces just, you know, round out, our sort -ment. So I'm kind of thinking of than New York magazine approval matrix. Yes, exactly right, hand corner. That's always like a hot item, right? You don't want any low. So the piano that I was talking about that probably started as, you know, more qualitative. And it was like what we thought we would drive financially for it. And then after we put it in the stores in like it just took off it kind of raised into a different quadrant. I have to ask about the piano. How did you convince people to buy an expensive musical instrument from the museum I play guitar bass, I do a little home recording. And I would never think to buy something from MoMA. How do you sell that as furniture is it as like a is it as they just put in your part and make it look nice it or are you saying that to musicians what is that? I think all three, but I think the most interesting story about it is how it became a part of our sort -ment. Okay. So are buying team was in Japan. They found the piano and Emmanuel the director of merchandising for the design store came back. I'm like we need to sell this Pia. No. And a portent person in the retail department was like this is really not right for us. Right. Are we gonna? Sell a four thousand dollar piano. And Emmanuel was like, yes, we are. And we should and it's important to you know, the story of moment designed store, and so we brought it in. And I think there are like first of all it's exclusive to us. So the musicians that are dialed into the the music world. They know that they can only find it at MoMA design store. I think people that are dwellers love piano because it has a slimmer profile, and it's really beautiful. So if you're living in a two bedroom, New York City apartment, having a grand piano, or even like, a regular standard piano is sort of a pipe dream your apartment. But the this rolling kilo piano is a little bit more accessible way for somebody to have that in their home. It's a little bit of an aesthetic play. It's actually there are some real musicians. Also by and the technology in it is brilliant. We had it in the museum. It was in a part of the museum for press preview that we did. And somebody from the finance team had heard about this PNO that we were about to bring it in. And he is trained as a classical pianist, and he was like can I come downstairs and play the piano, and he did and you had visitors for the museum stopping to listen to him play the piano because it just sounded so wonderful. So you just mentioned this press preview, which I just have to ask like, how do you actually market these items like we'll stick with Pano? What was the process there? The piano finds a home in our catalog, and I think the season that we launched the piano it was on like the third page of the catalog. It was half a page. So it had an important presence in our Cadillac. In addition. Into that each season. We have a press preview. We invite key press context the museum to touch and feel in play and understand all of our products that were bringing in for the seizure for the press that you're bringing into the store. I mean slate could come right. New York Times Wall Street Journal loggers a whole slew of press context com. Probably a hundred for the press preview and the idea is to get that on like their holiday gift guide, or what are you trying to get them? Excited about the products and understand what we have on offer. So when they're going to write an article about digital alarm clocks. They're thinking about the MoMA alarm clock. Was there press coverage of the piano was s kinds of press. Coverage who was writing about the piano, we had a ton of press hits for the the rob reporter familiar with rob report. Not so rob report featured the piano, the pianist featured in the goop gift guide that must be huge. Yeah. Was that? Like when you got when you got a goop it did that like cease sales, spike or sales been really high for the piano. So they've just continued since the goop gift pick the goop gift pick a lot of right to it. Yeah. But that's just one example of the press that we received on the piano. Okay. So you guys really do you work like normal marketing channels all that stuff at like a retailer retailer would. Yep. We'll give it Levin social media. It'll get a dedicated Email lines. It'll have. I've massive signing in the store talking about it's special benefits and features. It'll I believe that the piano when we launched it was featured in the window. So those are kind of how we treat marketing channels for some of the key products is the normal for a Newseum affiliated retail operation. Does do this does the Guggenheim do this kind of stuff or is that something a little unusual? I have had literally no idea. I actually don't know if the other museums hold press previews, but I think that also goes to like, we're not a traditional gift shop were designed store. So the way we treat. It would be more like a a larger scale retailer would do a press preview you guys partner with artists to produce goods. Yes. Those are some of our most exciting products right now, you've got a bunch of skateboards with polka dots on them from Kasuma is like in the also her pumpkins as well around the store. How does that come about? How do you? How do you strike that? Right. So it started with the pumpkin object. Qassam artists in the museum's collection. So we've always had a deep relationship with her. And she that she had a pretty big blockbuster Shogo around the country for a bit with mirrors and the pumpkin. So we started selling the Kasama pumpkins several years ago, and they were really strong sellers. People love the artists and they wanted to take home mental with her once visited the museum or by the memento online. So we we have this history of doing skate decks, and they sell really well because you know, some people are skating on the skate decks and other people are hanging in them on the their walls as art. So we had done skate decks with skate room for Andy Warhol, and we did our own Momo wholesale like MoMA will develop products too. So we developed Norris skateboards. And the next artists that we were thinking would be perfect for them was. Yeah. Yolk sama? So we contact with her studio, and she really trust MoMA design store to create wholesale products. Or you know developing. Sell products in our stores. So we took digital renderings of her work and the the team plied them to skate decks, and we had them manufacturer sample. We sent them to her studio in Japan for review and she received the skate decks, and she was like not happy with the way that the dots were distributed on the decks so unbeknownst to us. She painted over the Dexin white and painted over the Dexin yellow and then hand painted her dot motif on top of the the poor sample of decks, and when are buying team was in Japan to meet with her and her studio, they were like, this is exactly how we want the decks instead and handed hand painted Kasama decks back to the team to take back to the New York offices. So he could then go into Vellupillai skateboards. So for two months time. These decks were sitting at my desk like hand painted who Somma works that are now hanging in our store on fifty third street. It's also some good marketing copy, they're really. Right. We had kind of about that hype beast wrote about it. But I mean people were so excited by these handpainted skate decks, I mean, it was an original work mon- a moment design store product so her being picky plays. Well for your sales. Exactly I'm going to be the day we have to ship. Those skate decks back to her studio. Take them back. Right. Yeah. Do you ever? Get turned down by artists who has to work with sometimes it's not the right time for artists work with us or the idea of what we have to do with their product, isn't right. But I will say that we're in a unique position with MoMA, as you know, are home to be able to have the privilege to work with artists to develop some really exciting product that I think some use Iem don't have that same opportunity do artists say Naaman that's to corporate. But that's something. That's still happens in the artwork. Not that. I know of I mean, sometimes and artists will say we want you to have this. But we don't want it to be on your ecommerce site. We just wanna have it in stores. So there are some, you know, restrictions around it. But I do think that they're really excited to work with us. We create really cool products. Right. Like, we're not only doing art reproductions on mugs. We really try and think out of the box right now, we have Nahra bandaids that are really funny because a lot of his work has like, you know, people. With like bandages on his work. So the fact that we did a set of bandaids with NAR prints on them. Like, you know, I think it's a little bit more of the unexpected as far as art reproductions. You guys don't find a lot of skepticism towards just like SRI commerce from from the artists. Nestles you mentioned price before again. I I was perusing the store. There was one item that jumped out to me, and I just kinda need to get it story. There is a dandy lion. That is kind of frozen in a critic and has an LED light at the bottom. So it's a light up, Dan, align and its script as an object of art like an art object and sells for seven hundred ninety nine dollars. How does that come about? And like who's that for exactly right? So I guess to understand the LED dandelions JJ art, you need to understand the original dandelions on art. So we've been selling for several years this this dandelion, which is preserved in critic and the designer. It's a Japanese designer that was actually inspired by work in the museum's collection. And it was by designer called core Mata and this designer would put paper flowers into acrylic in Crete furniture out of it. So we have a piece in the museum's collection. That is by this artist rate designer and then the artists designer that created this object to art was like what if we could preserve a real flower. And so they did it with the dandelions and their handpicked and harvested every spring right copy. So that he picks dandelos. Yes. And then they're put into the acrylic. So it's a higher price point just the regular of Jada art at retails for three ninety five. And then he had the idea to take it to the next level and light it with LED light. So it could act as a night light. And so it's sort of glows, which you know, is definitely takes a little bit. Makes it a little bit less accessible, but it is absolutely beautiful in breathtaking. I definitely found myself staring. At it for a while at the store, not just at the price point. And I know I sound skeptical because frankly amimal skeptical, but it is it is interesting to look at it is like I wonder how do you get each the dandy lion seeds stay in place when you're sinking it in acrylic that process, and I see some sort of magic right magic something someone someone is figured out industrial process to do this. But I I guess what? I'm wondering how you decide how much an object art should sell for. So there's a cost to everything that we buy. And so if the cost coming from Japan for this hand picked and acrylic placed dandelions is, you know, a certain amount we have to think about the cost of getting that object from Japan to our warehouse in New Jersey. And then we need to talk about getting it to the stores and at the end of the day, we have a average margin that we try to meet, right? And so there's this margin that will ply and not everything falls to that margin. Right. Some things we. Take it on. But that's sort of how the pricing so there's there's an overall average margin, and you have to figure out how that's going to contribute. Is it like everything tries to roughly with a few exceptions stay within it. Or is it that you need everything collectively to sort of everything collectively needs to hit that margin. But the more things that are hitting that average margin the easier it is to do. Okay. So there's a cost to getting the the artist to hand pick the Dan to line. He's charged. I guess he is a contract with you guys where he wants a certain amount of money. So I mean, how do those art objects cell? So the original object art has been a part of our sort -ment for really long time. So that's probably an indicator to you that it holds its own, but all of the objects, you really, well, we have one that has a four leaf clover pressed into it. And at one point we had trouble keeping them in stock because the harvester and the grower of the four leaf clovers in France couldn't grow them fast enough for them to be preserved in the acrylic. There's a like a four leaf clover farm. Yes. In the south of France. That's. Precious. Right. So that one's a little bit better priced at sixty five dollars. You can you can mass produce the clovers, which is the whole point of the clovers. There you have to find them in the wild. That's that's totally undermine or you can preserve them and keep them on your bookshelf. We're taking a break from the interview for work one of our sponsors. Today's episode is brought to you by progressive insurance fun. Fact progressive customers can get up to six discounts in six minutes when they sign up for progressive auto insurance discounts for things like enrolling in automatic payments, ensuring more than one car going, paperless. And of course, you'll get even deeper discount if you're safe driver, plus if you bundle with your home or at renter's insurance, you can save an average of twelve percent. There are so many ways to save when you switch and once you're a customer progressive you'll get unmatched claim service with twenty four seven support online or by phone. It's why over eighteen million drivers trust progressive and why they've recently climbed to third largest auto insurer in the country. Get a quote online at progressive dot com. As little as six minutes and see how much you could be saving discounts not available in all states and situations. That's it for that. Now about to the interview. What about kitsch? This seems like the the constant challenge. With a museum store is some stuff is going to be catch. Right. Like is gonna verge on it. Do you guys talk about that? I think the way that we select product under these good design filters. Right. These eight filters lend themselves to weeding out the catch. There is always going to be like a funny quirky product in the store, but it's definitely not the at the heart of what we do. Okay. You mentioned that you guys designed the Rahman sport. Yes. That I feel like some people could feel like maybe we is kitsch. How does somebody need a really great Rahman's spoon? It's actually one of the Cup from I don't know where that specifically came from. But I can tell you a little bit about where some of our MoMA wholesale products. Come so part of our retail line is that we have a wholesale department that designs manufacturers products to sell in our retail stores, but also to stores throughout the world. So. So we have a collaboration with SBA the school visual arts, and they're MFA products of design students where every semester, they're given a prompt. So give me design solutions for the kitchen, and then all of the students in that course, will then create designs, and then we select manufacturer some of the winning designs from that. And we sell them in our stores and other retailers seldom. Let's go interesting. That's a great opportunity for an art school kid essentially or Zion school kid. Yes. And then they get royalties of any sales on products that they designed true. So the sport probably came all likelihood came from a design school. I don't know if the sport came from a design school, but it may have that's my best idea at it. I shouldn't make fun of sport to actually it is really striking. I will say that. It's you go online and check it out. You know, you touched upon the fact that we work with artists you design, really great, Nick, citing products. But we also create products tied to. To museum exhibitions. So we had the items is fashion modern exhibition last October through January, and we created like ten limited edition products specifically for that based on items that were in the exhibition, so it's not always necessarily working with the designer. But sometimes it's worth working with a manufacturer like new era. Their baseball caps were in the exhibition. So we worked with them on a moment. Exclusive baseball cap was the baseball. It was a Yankees cap because we're New York institution. And then it said MoMA on the side, and they performed amazingly for us. And we also worked with champion because there was a red champion hoodie in the exhibition, and we created a MoMA champion hoodie in celebration of it. So one of the interesting things, I you know, you've kind of mentioned and Paul Galloway when I talked to him. He mentioned the design department moments really interested in everyday items as well as the really high end architecture. Gene, you talked about that different price points. But is there ever kind of a worry that by stamping moma's name on something that's sort of inherently is making it a little bit more Bucci that that kind of undermines the point of normal baseball cap. I wouldn't say it's Bucci. But I think it's turning it on its head. Like, you're taking this urban street wear, and you're putting MoMA on it. I don't think it's boozy as much as it is the idea that everyday objects are part of our design collection, right and celebrating that to an extent you mentioned this you take a hit on items is that you're saying it's a lower margin. You don't ever sell anything for a loss? We I mean that that's the worst thing ever. But some items we just don't get as generous of margin on what are the items that you would decide are worth it. Like, what is an example of something? I think if something's exclusive to us, and that you can only find MoMA that's always an area were willing to maybe take a little bit more of a margin hat at tech products are inherently lower margins. Best buy. Yeah. So I think those are probably two examples I think it's also really important to keep in mind that every single purchase made MoMA design store goes back to support the museum's its programming -education programs in conservation. So we operate entirely as a nonprofit and everything that we make goes back into the museum. So it's important to keep those margins. I wasn't going to bring this up. I didn't run disparage another institution. But that's it is interesting that you mention that because the Metropolitan Museum famously has been losing money on its store, which is mind boggling to me like that somehow that you could run a retail operation, which is supposed to actually fund your mission and just like that become a money sink. So I I guess that leads me to another question, which is what happens if you guys don't hit your margin. I mean, you don't have shareholders exactly to get angry. But you do have the museum. Trustees and everyone so what happens they are financial goals and come hell or high water we try and make those so we don't take it lightly. If we're missing our numbers at all. And you know, we are I think at like as far as sales go where the one number one driver of revenue for the museum right before margins. So it's something that is important financial metric for the museum. We we take it really seriously when we operate our business where do you ever spend the majority of your time during the day like you get in on a Monday or Tuesday. What's what is actually on your plate? I have eight ton of meetings. If feels like I'm just in meetings, Monday through Friday, all Jay, I'm so I spent a lot of my time there like the catalog that you're talking about is at the is that the buyer meetings is it what is I mean, it's catalog it's the buyer meetings. It's calls with the various agencies that we work with were constantly collaborating with people across the museum. So I'm meeting with museum marketing museum press teams the membership team where else my spending might time. I think I mentioned earlier that I sort of act as a quarterback right like. There's an idea, and then I need to like pop it over to a bunch of different people to make a come to life. So I think a lot of it is briefing people in getting them up to speed on what we're working on prioritizing focusing on the question, I'm asking everyone at the end of these interviews is what their favourite piece of art at MoMA is. However, I think in your case Carol says, what's your favorite thing in the store love that Clinton. The I'll give you chance to market again, if you want I'm work here is about your about the art, but you can give. My favorite pieces store. I think is like a there's a group answer. So it's my coffee ritual right now, I'm using a French press that I got in the design store that I love for my coffee every morning. And then if it's a weekend, I put it in my ember mug, which is a mug that keeps my coffee warm at the perfect temperature that I like to drink it at it's seems like a kind of sharper image, kind of like the moment designs. So I love that when I'm at home. And then I have a travel coffee mug that I'm using that. I think is called the kick co and it has to openings and keeps my coffee really warm, but like third in my Tope bag, and it won't spill on my way to work, and it has like you can drink around all sides of the opening rather than like in a small specific whole if you bought a coffee Cup to go somewhere. Cool. Yeah. Okay. So you can do better coffee drinking through design is okay. So that might be a headline upcoming Email. I've missed my more lucrative. And then and the art I'd say right at this moment, my favorite piece of art in the museum is the contender series. Where the film department plays all of the contenders for the upcoming award season. So it's films that I can bring my friends to my family to and we can enjoy a great movie together at MoMA. It's just convenient very convenient. When we should send you the list of contenders. So good also good marketing. That's all right. Thanks so much for coming to talk. Really? Appreciate it. It's been really fun talking to you. That's it for this week's episode of working, and that brings us to the conclusion of our series on York's museum of modern art. I hope you enjoyed the show. I hope you enjoyed this season. I have a lot of fun putting it together. If you enjoyed it. Please leave us review at apple podcasts. If you've got questions comments further thoughts Email me at working at slate dot com, and that's working flight dot com. I sometimes respond a little bit late. But I always try to sponde- the producer. I'm working jesmyn, Molly. And this week I'm gonna finish off with two special. Thanks the first as always to Justin de right for the ad music. The second goes to Mark. I never got Mark last name. But he is the sound engineer. The museum of modern art who recorded most of these interviews, and he was an absolute joy to work with the total. Pro Mark you keep doing you. Anyway for the rest of you listening. We're going to be taking a couple of weeks off to get started on the next season. But hope you catch us next time. I'm working.

MoMA Japan museum of modern art United States New York museum marketing museum museum modern art Metropolitan Museum maggie Jordan Weisman New York City Lincoln Rahman sport associate director Cadillac IRRI Taylor Maggie Perry Maggie berry Paris
The Progression of Augmented and Virtual Reality with, Ankit Kumar, CTO of Ubiquity6

IT Visionaries

34:11 min | 11 months ago

The Progression of Augmented and Virtual Reality with, Ankit Kumar, CTO of Ubiquity6

"On this episode of it visionaries we sit down with an Kit Kumar CTO of ubiquity six. Whose mission is to unlock new ways for people to connect in physical spaces and kit in hosts invis- on take a deep dive into everything currently going on the computer vision? Industry specifically augmented and Virtual Reality and Kit Discusses Building a our technology and the complexity that goes was into it as well as businesses that can benefit from this type of technology. Enjoy this interview. It visionaries is created by the team at Michigan Dot. Org and brought to you by salesforce did you know that salesforce isn't just for sales. Using salesforce as an employee experience platform House make every employee across your organization more productive. Thanks to a common mobile first platform for getting work done faster. Find out more at salesforce dot com slash employee experience Welcome to another episode of it. Visionaries I mean phase on chief continents are here admission dot Org and we have special guest get what's going on. I'm good. How are you doing you know? It's just a brilliant day in Sunny San Francisco sitting high above the Baybridge right here at ubiquity. Six H Q. We're GONNA get into all things a are. The are what you're building founding the company but I had to get into technology technology even growing up. I was always into gadgets and Legos and things like that and my my dad is an engineer so I got into technology in the broad sense as young kid and I was always in a video game things like that. I think I've always been sort of interested interested in technology in the sense of like using science and math like understand the world so to speak but software technology was in college my Sophomore Year of college and when you started kind of working with the early days were you thinking about a are refocused focused on where you particularly excited about it. What would lead you to that early days of software technology not really Ar Vr? I got into software really as a sort of tool for math. I came by way of math in software. was just the next tool to like do math better more or less. So that's got me into a and computer vision. Broadly speaking a or VR. I think I got into significantly before by being intellect scifi movies in books and things like that and a little bit into my sort of journey with Tack Jack and a Computer Vision. I sort of realized that the two interests converge there and then I got really interested in Vr and kind of what you could do with graphics and sort of immersive experiences and things like that. How'd you meet your co-fund? My co-founder we. We've known each other. For a long time. Now we met Freshman Ashman Year of college. Oh I didn't know that. Yeah Oh that's he didn't share that with me. We actually lived together during college for a summer summer. After our sophomore year we lived together in San Francisco. Just actually right down the street from where we are now as crazy so When did the idea for war ubiquity? Six come like one was at first the inklings of that between the two The inklings of that must have happened in college. We were both both sort of into Saifi in like this sort of promised vision of the world however for on the future was at the time so the inklings must have started a while l. ago. I would say we. We sort of started thinking about the idea in earnest Maybe two years ago or so two and a half years ago talking about trends in and in the industry looking at smartphone pricing powers like a really major one that allows the server on device A. R. That is critical For the experience. And if you look at sort of the progress of computer vision as a software technology and the progress of hardware smartphone purchasing power. Being big one it became clear maybe three years ago. Maybe a little more depending on how you're extrapolating Ford that these kinds of experiences were were coming to like mobile devices which have larger penetration and And that sort of kind. What started the the real conversation but we must have been talking about this kind of effort since since college? So what was like in those kind of early conversations will ris talking talking about with the industry as a whole of like. Hey where's this going. What's the business need? Where do we fit into this? You know he was. Obviously an investor are to Houston a bunch of technologies. And what were you working on it so so at the time I have my experience was in like deep learning computer vision Asian. Actually I started as natural as Done into computer vision and at the time deep learning was just sort of a a new technology and all of the deep learning all of the ways the deep learning had been brought to market were around very large servers and like a big compute superpower environments and we were sort of looking at if we could shrink deep learning and run on very constrained devices so like things like a Gopro or like security cameras things like that so very even more constrained than a phone would be and that was sort of when that was sort of where it became clear to me like where processing power is going on founded on a small devices in and what was possible. So that was what I was working at the time and Andrzej was investing at Kleiner Perkins focused August on computer vision that kind of field and so what I was realizing Power and what he was seeing in the market about what people were trying to do. But not quite able to do at the time and kind of extrapolating Ford as to what this technology could do from a product perspective like what what the hell can impact people's lives how they could interact with sort of technology in the world in a different way I would say our our our companies not exactly like like an idea that no one has thought about before it. It's the idea has been around in like SCI FI rainbows As a book which I think Andre gave you the Um we're gonNA read after this. Yeah it's a book. This vision of the world has been around. It's not like we invented it from scratch right. It's a little bit more of a realization position that in fact that is possible now right and so looking at what the initial is trying to do looking at where technology is going was kind of genesis of this thought that maybe now is the time to speak. And that's and that's kind of how it started so flattered today with the company Would business use cases. Do you see In a are VR In this space because I think a lot of our listeners Sea Level leaders are kind of trying to like wait and figure out like where the heck a ours going. Maybe they're dip their toe with a few experiments here or there but with few exceptions certain people in retail and things like that but most most people are just kind of waiting to see what the business use cases are water using. Well I think the first from our perspective the first answer to that question is not necessarily a sort of B. Two B. use case like a business use case. It's more of a product for consumers to to us so from that perspective. We would like to expose this technology into the world in a way in which consumers are able to get value out of it just from pure sort of product perspective without having to go through like some other business to to get there. I think the long term it is likely that businesses will find value on our platform. And with this kind of with this technology. Broadly speaking and I think the first place that would be like a clear win would be businesses that have physical venues news so restaurants. Coffee shops offices Museums things like this where they're sort of valuable asset which is the business business itself the physical location and for one reason another. It is valuable to like augmented in some rich way right so that would be like the first this clear business use cases. I would say but really weird. We're focused on getting this out to the mass market as like a consumer product. So one of the things things Andrzej And I talked about. Was this idea that like you have if you have the ready player one world which is like totally separate world that is not our own whereas what you're her building is layers layers on top of how the physical world can be added to an experience from people all over the world. You did a a really cool multi user experience at SF Moma. Can you share Kinda like from at an experiential standpoint what that was like and then we can get into like what the tech was on that. Yeah so you're asking what the experience was out of the end user so the idea would that sort of preview. Let's say eh you would come into the Moma you'd have our APP and you would localized area. So now you're all in a sort of shared cord system looking at the same content Floating being in the Moma and at the time the moment was doing An exhibit on Rene agreed who's like a Belgian he's like this Belgian surrealist painter And so it kind of fit the arm. Pretty well like the surrealism of being put like a virtual floating rock. Let's say in a museum and so there are kind of two experiences that we did at the Moma one was what is essentially a sort of like an art piece essentially where we would what what you were. Seeing was three the art that was sort of agree. tean in nature in the Atrium of the moment. And you're seeing it in the same way as everyone else was and and there are some interaction. You could do where you would like Create a little balloon and go flying and you could see other people doing it. So you're sort of when you were sort of. Interacting with the art so to speak the other experience was was less about and it was more this idea of sort of adding to the moment like putting a virtual sculpture in in in the museum itself and so what is a sandbox experience where people could build sculptures cultures together and put selfies on it and things like that and the ad is persistent in the Moma like allegedly forever sort of thing or at least until someone else you know overrides it or whatever. The experience was but but the concept as you're building something together with other people that you might not have met before war just happened to also be in the Moma on our APP and that's like a persistent thing that you're building so would from a technology standpoint like what was under under the hood of anonymity. There's a lot of proprietors you can share but like what type of experiences obviously building for mobile obviously on desktop stop. People can experience it. You know if you're sitting in Brazil and you're on desktop Like water the different ways that people can experience that yes so you know from a technical perspective. They're they're sort of two phases so to speak so the first is when we went to the Moma and we captured the space face right and so we went there and this was us but it could have been any user in the future. It's not it's not a particularly difficult thing to do. All you need to the smartphone our phone and you essentially take a video of the space and you send it to our our back end in our back in turns that video or multiple videos if if desired into into kind of a single reconciled cornyn system thirty representation of the space of the moment and there are a number of things that through your representation sort of has with the the two kind of primary ones would be visualization so it's a pretty high fidelity representation And the ability to localize someone in that corner space later when when they're so that's kind of face. Now we have this sort of rich three D. representation of the Moma has some information has visualization localization. And things like this so now that we've sort of brought the Moma online into our virtual world let's say and then we put our the experiences we want in it so we would put the piece of talking about. We put the sandbox. These are sort of experiences are games that use will be able to play. Now we get to the second phase phase which is actually experiencing that content as a user right. And so like you're saying there are a number of ways you can experience it if you're not there if you live in Brazil or India or whatever ever and you want to take part in this event in this experience you can go with just a link right Link on the web. You the what you're looking at is that high fidelity representation taste of the space and you're interacting in. Ju just like anyone else. Who's there right and you're seeing the people who are there like avatars and things like this you can do the same in? VR similar concept If you're not there you can teleport interview. VR If you are there that's when the localization piece comes into play where you're in a they are and the critical thing that we need to do is kind of reconcile your local coordinate system. So what happens when you open up an ar APP is that you kind of start at zero zero zero of some corn system that has allocated for you at kind of on demand and of course that's not the same coordinate system of our representation of the space and that's what that's what I mean when I say localization it sort of reconciling. Where where you think you are in your corner system to where you are in our kind of persistent Shared across everyone. And so once you localize now you're in the same kind of experience contexts. Everyone now says the people who are in Vr the people who desktop you're all kind of interacting together and so basically you know if I'm watching from Brazil and you're physically in the Moma now we can have in a our experience. Where like I write you know Tonkin on the law and you're like hey what's up being vian and where we can both see it but also everyone else's has their phones in the Moma could also see? Yeah yeah that that's exactly right and and most importantly your sort of together in the same context which is the the Moma Ray if feels like you're actually there because the representations high enough fidelity right it's is not just like a it's not just sending a message on chat or something. You're actually an routes three D. Environment. That is one to one aligned with the Moma itself right right and so the changes. You're doing the like how you're changing. The the world is being reflected in the real world in the Moma right for the people in a are also for our listeners. Who Don't the moments the Museum of Modern Art this moment museum in San Francisco? It's it's great so compare you know this APP to other. Ar APPs like pokemon. Go or something like that we had Phil from The CTO of NIANTIC on here talking about pokemon go. Oh and how their goal is to get people actually outside in the world that leveraging. Ar Can you kind of like expand on like building these kind of worlds in our natural world rather than kind of building a a simulation. Yes so pokemon goes a great start and and I think they're kind of two critical differences. That hauer sort of trying to go further so go did a great job of sort of presenting presenting the US this idea that there is a virtual layer on top of the real world. It's Blue Pokemon is a poker slap here Jim etc but they're there to who kind of axes on which we're trying to. We're trying to improve that. So one is that we want our world to be much richer right so in pokemon go when you find a pokemon and you and someone next to you might be catching the same that pokemon. But they're different instances of the POKEMON right. It's not like I catch and it goes away away from for you. Got It right here. So the multi player aspect is not sort of in the same environment it sort of one step removed so if if it gets you moved fifty feet to the left right. It's not like we're seeing the same package you. It's moving around because I throw poker ball at it in his running away from me and you're seeing that happen happen. It's kind of like we're in two different copies of the same experience. Yeah we're not actually together right. So that's that's one way we WANNA make it much richer and the the only way that's possible is with the kind of localization technology. I'm talking about because the the critical piece that's missing. There's that when I opened a arm when you you open your zero zero zero in your understanding as am I and so. It's very hard without some globally consistent corner system to register both of us us to for us to see the same thing in the same place in like maintain the illusion of of a are right. So that's that's one piece is about the richness the other pieces about sort of in a sense empowering users to create this world so pokemon go is created by NIANTIC and they have made the world. What what they wanted to be we want users to go to make their own world whatever they wanted to be shared with other people right and so we're not coming at it from a sort of studio perspective building? Some triple a game that is engaged into a certain a subset of people that say like Pokemon we want to empower users to build the world himself. So if you WANNA play you know basketball in the Moma You can create an APP that builds basketball hoop and you know stand in the Moma and shoot hoops in whatever or you could play cricket Eh Madison Square Garden or whatever it is and once once we have the Moma sort of digitizing into our platform now. Many people can make layers of content tint on that kind of canvas so to speak the moment being the canvas And so even if you live in Brazil you can make an expense pants at the moment right. You don't have to actually go be there but we want we want users to be able to do that themself right so this this seems like it's extremely complex thing to build especially with the amount of different ways that user being essentially device agnostic Can you talk about building the technology in complexity that goes into this product specifically like what your team look like how do you. How do you organize around that And everything yes so. Broadly speaking the company three efforts from from a technical perspective. The first one is probably the the most key is the is the mapping the computer vision back in peace so so this part of the company will will kind of take as input from devices from users censor data that they're capturing is essentially video with associated Meta data like I'm you you in Exceleron or things like that and the goal is to turn that into a rich three representation of the space that they were in and that three to representation needs to be updateable will be updated because the world changes of course and we wanted to be as rich as possible right so the question is sort of what does richness mean there for us. I you know. I mentioned. Sort of high fidelity visualization of the space stability localized in later. There's also a lot of semantic understanding that we WANNA have have a better space so not just that you know there's there's some geometry in some areas but that in fact is a wall or a table or chair things like that that allows us to turn our three representation into a sort of usable cannabis for games experiences content. Broadly speaking for example. If if you take a capture sort of outside in in some park you might WanNa know as a developer later who's creating content for or that space that you know there's trees here and so you know make birds fly around in that area or something like that right. Yeah so I think from a kind of CORETEC side a lot of a are VR. Kind of as a whole is GonNa be around gaining more richness in that understanding space. So so you know. I think the industry in academia as a whole has sort of just scratched the surface of sort of what could be done with that with that data and sort of how rich we can make that understanding. So that's kind of the lowest level of stack building. The Blend Kansas next level is in creating content for those canvases so we mentioned the the previous the Moma we've mentioned things like avatars and real time experiences and things like that. There's a part of the company. That's sort of in that level. The SAC which is creating three D content right for users to interact with the final piece. Is what you just mentioned. which is that? We're across many platforms. Each platform has its own sort of application that acts essentially as a lens into our virtual world or are spaces aces right and that's the top of the stack that's the that's the entry way of a user and those applications kind of both serve as essentially run times for the content and lenses into our virtual world but also as you know more sort of standard social APP with users and profiles and following faults that stuff like that So those are the kind of three pieces because this sort of a significant amount of complexity in that stack the communication indication. Integration points between the pieces are kind of constantly changing and and the Cross team communication becomes very important. So that's been that's been one of the challenges that we've really focused on in terms of building this technology to be very clear about the layering of the system. And and where dependencies. Why have there been any things that surprised surprised you In the past couple years in building the product whether it's thank you know feedback from users or feedback from customers Or just kind of feedback from the team. One thing that's the prize me is kind of how important it feels even a little bit dumb to say no in a way like how important I'm just clarity is especially as a service or a set of services grow in scope to the point where it's just a complex thing. The difference is in productivity of individual teams when they have a very clear sense of where they live in the stack relative to other teams versus kind of working on a the feature set of features in within. The team is incredible. Actually and it's just sort of like the the more you spread out that kind of information and the more that it's clear to everyone how the pieces come together the better individual decisions people can make kind of day to day on a talk a little bit about kind of deep learning Not directly you know is applicable to what you're building now but you've worked on it in the past. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on kind of where deep learning is headed as an industry. Yeah I I think the the I answer that questions I think think this is. I think been shown out of the last five years is that there's a there's GonNa be. There is and will continue to be for some period of time a bit of a sort of inexorable march of deep learning taking over more and more traditionally like other related industries in fields. Let's say not the industries but like academic fields if you look at where deep learning was in twelve when the craze kind of started with with Crisi paper up until now it's sort of like deep learning just slowly kind of inching its way and solving more and more harder problems in kind have taken over more and more of the industry. I think they will continue to happen for some period of time I think in terms of like industry adoption of deep learning a lot of the sort of industry adoption deep learning seems to be more of almost like a software engineering problem now Not as much of a sort of research problem because in many any cases now it's it's really a sort of. How do you train these massive massive networks on massive massive data sets and kind of do that in a continuous way way and deploy kind of safely reliably and things like that because the the scale of data that we're working with now is incredible right and a lot of progress? Progress in the sort of top end of deep learning like pushing accuracy like one percent two percent cetera has been driven by the the ability to train on more data essentially and to do so an iterative on really really big. Networks better driven more by that than you know Algorithm ick invention now there's algorithm convention as well of course but but I think there's two axes in which deep learning is going to grow one is is like just better tooling and systems and processes to work with the data industry and the other being more Algorithm Eq. You know invention where we're applying deep learning to more problems statements. Two different kinds of problems kind of making small improvements here and there every once in a while a big improvement and I think the next sort of people in saying this for a while to be honest but is like genitive models and more easier ways to understand unstructured data which which we have a lot in the world but Yeah I think I think that's probably there's some there's some more recent work that is like doing better on this domain but people have been admittedly saying that for a while. Oh but that I think is like where do you planning will go from an economic sense but on on the industry perspective. I think it's a lot of like the tooling now. Deep learning versus five years goes Incredible Difference tensor flow Pie. Torch things like this are becoming very very mature working. Lots of days became more mature. How do you think kind of your previous roles Being a data science consultant have consulting company in doing research prepped you to be a CTO yes so. The data science consultancy stuff was was in college and I think that that was more than anything was more of a learning experience about entrepreneurship in general Rather than sort of tech itself Those does experience The the the research aspect of it has been I would say nowadays. I'm more of a generalist software person. Let's say than researcher. I I I do still really enjoy Research elements Keep up to date with with academia has As Best I can but nowadays. I'm pretty much A. I just love software building building things in general but the research angle I think is for me now is more of a way of thinking and like a a way of applying sort of a more the systematic view to problems and sort of trying to sell problems in a more step by step manner which is sort of like the has been drilled into me from college Collagen you know before I was doing stats in a I I was I was actually I my majors in math from from college and that's also like a very systematic way of thinking and I think that that is the part of that training that has stayed with me is just like how I approach problems. Do you think that you you know for any kind of folks out there. Any developers that are looking to build in a are in VR. Like we'll be your advice vice to those folks. Well I think one really important part is to realize the building. Ar Vr is and will be for awhile very closely tied to like building a game. So I believe that many of these experiences will not be like traditional games the way we think the Games today but from a technical perspective there they are and will be very similar for a long time to understand three D if done this kind of three rendering which is very different than the sort of. Let's say web rendering that a web developer might might realize they're both kinds of rendering but the but the tools in technology route. Three rendering is very very different. And you should go and try to understand that you can't really just work with it kind of as as a practitioner. If you want to really get into it so I would say go understand. Game Engines and game rendering three D rendering deeply and understand has three math and how to work with things in Three D.. Because that's that's what you're saying is three D. and three D.. Working in three D is a is is a bit of a mental shift for sure. So I'd say definitely like own that and realize that study accordingly other than that I would say you know. They're not that many like tried and true practices so like be willing to experiment a bit in like take the long way home. You talked about like you stay at keep up with the Joneses on on research and things like that would suffer you reading. What stuff do you encourage your team? developers that that you have for the what do you listen to why I read papers still When I find them on you know I'll I will find papers is on places like twitter and read blogs and things like that I don't there's not like a one place that I go to to keep up to date if If something's interesting I'll encourage the people on the team to read it. I don't have that much time nowadays to read like books which is a little bit unfortunate. I kind of spend my reading time on paper papers more or less but yeah I think it's important to stay up to date with the with the way the fields going because has there's so much progress and you can miss something like very quickly Even the sort of two plus years. We've been doing this this this company. The field has changed relatively relatively dramatically. And when you're working in a field with such high rate of progress it's you're you're very liable to get left behind right. Skin lightening around. These questions are fast and easy. Just like the lighting platform from salesforce SALESFORCE DOT COM slash employee experienced. Learn learn more about lightning-fast employee. Experience lightning round questions. Are you ready number one. WHAT APP on your phone is the most fun most fun our APP other than this cheating but for listeners? You as you go sign up at ubiquity. Six Dot Com Lincoln up in the show notes. Second favorite APP probably like I message the Messenger at the IRA favorite science fiction book or series. Probably Rainbow's end actually. which would you have a copy of I? Now now I'm GonNa read it Do you have favorite cookery to cook or eat probably I'm pretty simple when it comes to like pasta with chicken and Broccoli. How about favorite one day getaway in the bay area in the bay area? Well Sometimes I. I grew up in San Diego so sometimes I'll do a one to get away just back home. Great I'm going there next week. What would be your thing? You're most excited about for the future technology. I'm I'm pretty excited about wearable. Ar wearable technology. I kind of call anything wearable. A are broadly speaking but glasses like ambient being a are in rebel acknowledging. We'll be we'll be big shift best advice for first time. CTO Best Advice for first time CTO CTO realize that your job is not gonna be coating for that long. It's been awesome man. Thanks so much for for coming on. All of our listeners. Should check out ubiquity. Six Dot Com. Sign up going to be great. We're GONNA fall along super headed for. Ar and in everything. You're doing five shutouts anything's to plug nothing really to plug. Just go fix com also. They

Brazil San Francisco CTO salesforce Ar developer Ford Moma Kit Kumar CTO NIANTIC Moma Ray Michigan Dot basketball engineer Andrzej Baybridge Museum of Modern Art
NPR News: 03-13-2020 4AM ET

NPR News Now

04:39 min | 6 months ago

NPR News: 03-13-2020 4AM ET

"Live from NPR news in Washington. I'm Shay Stevens atop infectious disease. Expert is told a Congressional hearing that the US government cannot account for what could be thousands of new corona virus infections. Dr Anthony Fauci at the National Institutes of Health says other nations are doing a better job when it comes to testing for the disease. The system does not is not really geared to what we need right now. What you are asking for that is a failing and it is a family. Let's admit it found blames. The failing on delays getting test kits to public health lab. Sooner he says Moore Corona Virus Infections are likely in the US speaker. Nancy Pelosi Says House leaders are near agreement with the trump administration on a list of proposals to help families and businesses cope with corona virus including paid sick leave and Food Assistance Majority Leader Mitch. Mcconnell says the Senate plan one week recess as been cancelled so that lawmakers can keep working on a bipartisan. Emergency Response Bill in Ohio Governor. Mike DeWine is ordering all K. Through twelve students to take an extended three week spring break from member station W. O. S. U. Page Pflieger reports on reaction from some parents. They're the move. Is the most dramatic step. Ohio officials have taken so far shortly after the announcement. Melissa Nolan picked up her grandsons at sterling middle school on Columbus's west side. She says many kids here rely on school lunches and most parents have to work during the day. A lot of students don't have the resources that we have to take care of their kids so I think it's a little soon to be calling off school but I figured it was coming another parent. Says he'll have to take off work to look after his daughter but he's supportive of the governor's decision for NPR news. Impeach Pflieger Columbus as corona virus spreads throughout the New York Metropolitan Area Broadway Lincoln Center and Carnegie Hall. Have shut down down. The major art museums have announced that. They're closing as well more from Jeff London. The Museum of Modern Art. Moma and the Whitney Museum announced on Thursday evening that they'll be shutting down their operations on Friday following in the footsteps of the Metropolitan Museum of Art Moma closed. Its Main Museum in Manhattan Satellite Museum in Queens and two stores through March thirtieth. It's director Glenn. Lowry wrote quote. Nothing is more important to Moma than the health and safety of our community as it is more and more challenging to predict the impacts of the novel Corona Virus outbreak. We have decided to temporarily close Moma. The Whitney said it quote will continue to monitor the situation and assess the need for continued closure for NPR news. I'm Jeff London in New York on Asian markets shares closed sharply lower in premarket trading. Dow futures are up four percent this is NPR news. A federal judge has released Chelsea Manning from jail near Washington D. C. The former intelligence officer was detained last year for refusing to testify before a grand jury. That's now disbanded. Manning was imprisoned from two thousand ten until two thousand seventeen when President Obama commuted. Her sentence for sharing government secrets with wikileaks. The US military says it's carried out a series of air strikes targeting ronnback militia believed to be responsible for a rocket attack. That killed two. Us troops British soldier near Baghdad. A Pentagon statement says precision strikes aimed primarily at weapons facilities were used to target USA and coalition forces. It says five different sites were attacked commercial. Satellite Imagery shows what appears to be mass graves being dug near the epicenter of the Corona virus outbreak in Iran details from NPR shift from field. The images were taken on March. First by the company Max are and showed trenches dug into cemetery on the outskirts of the holy city of Qom. The Washington Post which broke the story also published social media posts in which a large number of bodies appear to be taken to the site. Comb is at the center of the outbreak in Iran which is one of the largest in the world. The country has reported over ten thousand cases and more than four hundred deaths so far but some feared the count may be even Higher Jeff Brumfield. Npr News Washington again in pre-market trading dow futures are up nearly four percent following Wall Street's worst trading day since the stock market crash of nineteen. Eighty-seven I'm Shay Stevens. Npr News in Washington.

US NPR NPR Moma Washington Shay Stevens Dr Anthony Fauci Ohio Jeff London Metropolitan Museum of Art Mom Iran Chelsea Manning Npr Museum of Modern Art National Institutes of Health Jeff Brumfield Whitney Museum Washington Post Pflieger Columbus Melissa Nolan
Holiday Gifting with Social Editor Chloe Malle

Vogue Podcast

12:49 min | 5 years ago

Holiday Gifting with Social Editor Chloe Malle

"Welcome to the vote podcast. I am you'll host Andre Leon. We all holiday spirit over here. Vogue this week excited for holiday travel spending time with family and friends, and of course, gifts giving and receiving gifts gifts and gifts as many of you may know, I love the holidays. But it's always stressful. Figuring out the most perfect gift for those in our list. In today's podcast. We're going to talk about gifts what to get who to give and my favorite gift this year. Khloe mall, vogue, social editor is here with me to talk about the best gifts for those on your list. We have both been pouring over the vote gift guys both online and in the December issue we've come up without top ten gifts. Khloe welcome. Thank you. Andrea very happy to be here ready. So we're gonna go to your categories. It's with the top of the list and tell us a little bit. Why chose that gifted? So my gift for him is actually could also work for food lover because my husband is a great cook. And I I love this DIY deluxe. Hot sauce cat. And I think that that would be a really exciting gift to receive on Christmas morning and that'll keep my husband busy for the whole day. And then we can try different kinds. Yes. You make six different hot sauces. There's multiple ingredients that you're giving in your kid. It's almost like a fragrance kit that used you're kid and instead it's for hot sauces. So you can adjust your level of spiciness depending on who likes what at what heat. So that what I was very excited about. So I think I'm going to order that. Immediately specialty in the kitchen specialize for me specialities, not burning things which is great speakers. That that's not the case for me. But he's very good at cooking sort of southern dishes. He does very good corn bread. Excellent grits. He's a big Sean Brock fan himself. He's from Virginia wonderful. Six months. I didn't even know you. I should have known. What congratulates very much? Oh my goodness. Well, Christmas, it'll be wonderful at your house with sightsee by my gift for her. You know, my mother is getting a new puppy. We've always loved Disney together. And I love this Olympia tan by Disney clutch, the lady and the tramp clutch. So I thought that combining her love of Disney and her new puppy that that would be appropriate gift gift for her. So I think I'm going to be getting that for her, and hopefully, the puppy will not eat it. I just saw your mother the other day on him in a fabulous movie directed by George Kuka, rich and famous. Yes, that was fabulous films. She was so wonderful in that she was playing southern author. I think. Shell cool. It's really good to look at that. Now with. Yes. And Hochner saucy seen an airplane. Good. My gift for kids. I have six nieces and nephews. So that's always my the most robust gifting category. For me. The hardest for me as my eleven year old niece because she has her own ideas about closed. She doesn't want to receive toys. It's sort of the preteen moment. And I love this idea of a make history time capsule. I remember when I was a kid you made a time capsule. It's still at our house in France or waiting to be uncovered. And this allows you it's sort of gives you all the ingredients you need to make it yourself. So I think I'm gonna get that for her. And then we can maybe do that together. Really, original fabulous. My two year old nephew Alfie is quite a superhero. And there's this make your own superhero. Cape that I thought was quite fabulous. And really would encourage superior. Okay. The burgeoning fashion designer and Greg. That that kit. I think will really go a long way, these sports fanatic. I think that it should be something for post sports because everyone is injuring themselves with their tents boot camps and mud runners and at cetera, you know, try triathlons so this role Powell this. It's almost a massage want, and it's very deeply, massages and needs your muscles. So that you can sort of lengthened all of the the tissue there. So I would get that for someone. It's splurge for a sports gadgets. But I think it would really go along. It's four hundred dollars for little last. I know. So you better hope that saving your your entire. So if you have aching back, you can't roll it on your back someone else doing four you. That's true. Be interesting. That's an extra cocoa. Great for tech obsessed. I think that over the holidays when you're with your family, you should detect and I would give someone a puzzle this sort of opposite. And this Alex Prager puzzle from the MoMA store, I thought really fabulous and crowd seeing. That's really fat. It's a crowd scene. It would be fun to do. It's perfect for the art lover for someone who has everything. Good. It's just having a small intimate gathering after dinner, you sit there, and you just do the puzzle have coming. The crowd scene, discreet. Pie in the sky to me that would be the Dominique and sell secret recipes because it's still to me a pint of sky idea to able to get a crow nut because you still have to wait in line for so many hours. So to actually be able to bake cronut really is a pie in the sky dream for me. So I think that that would be a good way to gift that for the world traveler, I love the Smiths and currency cases that have the two Dipper compartments, and it's really the best way to travel and to keep your euros in one and your dollars in the other, and you're not gonna pay your French taxi driver in dollars. He's not going to be happy and that just works. Well for everyone for pets. My dog Phyllis my mother's dog Phyllis my stepfather is Jewish and he believes that Phyllis has also Jewish and so they make these great chew toys from a company called COPA Judeh called chewy treats. And there's a sheep chew toy called Bah mitzvah. And and so I think. I will get Phyllis the bomb. It's ju- for for for Hanukkah, and I think she'll really be excited about she's about thirteen. So it's sort of. It's the right time for my gift on a budget. I think there's nothing lovelier than having hot chocolate over the holidays and this sue extra dark drinking chocolate from mouth is looks delicious. I would like to be drinking it immediately. So that would be my preference to an I think people will be very grateful grateful. Graceful Cloyd a fabulous. Now. What are you wanting Santa to bring you for Christmas? Well, that is an excellent question. Andre. You know, I love those on your hand, Mark bespoke pieces, I think that they're so fabulous. And I always give them as gifts. But it's the kind of thing you would never make for yourself or have done for yourself. So that would be a lovely thing to receive. Do you have your pet? Do you have any pets? No, I don't sadly, my building does not allow but Phyllis is. Yes. Exactly. Well, that's wonderful. So now, I tell me about your getting very very strange but on us, but I love the idea of giving and I love shopping. I actually love shopping part of experiences hunting down the right gift for the right person for a guy. I would be giving him a beautiful Puckett comb by Bri radio, and it comes little case. But I always think it's a good thing to give a guy a comb because guys don't they don't use them enough. And I was going to get the bid all I thought of something online that they had a vote Abid oil for something like thirty five dollars because guys are so messy with their beards. But they have careful, but none of the groom then people need to groom that being everyone's wearing their beards more sort of his beard looks better oil you'd better groom it so for her. I would of course, go very fascinating of a on Jacobs jacket. It's a blue jacket. It's very Christmas. There's nothing more special again girl a jacket. For christmas. A something of clothing and the best because it's just it's a statement jacket, and you're gonna go right on Christmas day with now for kids. I'm not especially in friends but kids, but therefore I would go with a big old stuff drafted rapid you can ride from the Hansa right under wrath in almost life size. And it's so cute. It's face got long eyelashes perfect for a little kid. I think that'd be lovely pets pets pets pets. Oh, of course. I would have to go for the ultimate thing. The Goya doggy bowl. I mean, remember Amy Spindler the late eighty spent of the New York Times we in Paris once and she went into going on and got that doggy bowl. Let me it's the classics design, and she came to a fashion show with Amy you've got a beautiful pocketbook. So you serious it's Donny Bola. She put it down. And she let her dog drink water from the double sided doggy bowl. I think that's wonderful. It's fabulous fabulous. It's awesome. The pets. Monogram that would be lovely guess the monogram was the next category fanatic. I would go for definitely the fabulous public schools silver jacket. If it's a girl guy is fabulous jacket. You know, the first base silver jacket. You know, something sparkley something an expected, and then we have food lover food food food lover listed Stilton cheese. It's fabulous. I would give a fabulous can of Clawson authentic, British blue Stilton cheese, and it comes in that corridor. Gorgeous, blue and Delft esque. Yes, wrapping container and I love Stilton cheese. I mean, I have a story about Hilton cheese. I hadn't been Olo Blahnik once come on the concord back in the day of friend of ours. When it's still cheese from England. And I bring that Stilton cheese on the concord, and he came on the Concorde with the Stilton cheese on his lap. And she was very very happy about that. So I was definitely get. So say would not allow that not today. The eighties. The TSA would be X Reagan examining and everything that's Stilton cheese would not arise and tech obsessed. Of course, would be the beats headsets so cool so silvery, and so wonderful sparkling pie in the sky is obviously a one truffle very very beautifully done in Alba talion trussell. It's done in a glass job with the white truffle or white truffle white truffle, it's rather expensive. But it's very unexpected gift. What surprise truffle that would be lovely to have especially if you're looking to Kim. And then we would go for the world traveler, my world traveler gift would be the books theory of bunch of books put out by Canterbury. Classic world cloud. Classic books there in beautiful crayon box colors, and you get a set of books of the classics. You get everything from uncle Tom to Harriet be from heavy beaches store to probably Austin, and I love the colors, and it looks like you would love to just put that book of your carry on. And then for the gift on the budget. I think this is fabulous. It would be Santamaria Novello, erred and mint water. What in the world, you would urban meant. What looks beauty the glass. Yes. Do you drink it? Or do you sprang comet Dukan within the cook it at two teaspoons of herb admit one to your dough for your butter biscuits. I just love the idea that's urban mid water. You know, who cares? Okay. Thank you Chloe so much Chloe. You wonderful. I love your gifts. I especially if the gift of giving you husband, the thoughts is Ford. He's going to be very happy with that. And I love all the gifts facilities. Oh, yes. Well, that's. Thiel mom for my will. All right. You so much merry Christmas to you saying that now do you have to be politically correct to say happy holidays? I don't know. Okay. Thank you Chloe. Well, my ultimate gift issue would be because I think it's a wonderful DEA fabulous gift and my different grace cottage and has finally issued a book grace thirty years and folk, and it is a must buy for every fashion love on your list. It's on sale now at Barney's and stores all over the world. And I think it was a fabulous fabulous fabulous gift. Be sure to go to the store and subscribe to the vote podcasts.

Phyllis Khloe mall Disney Andre Leon Chloe Virginia Andrea editor Amy Spindler concord Disney Sean Brock George Kuka Hochner MoMA
In Early May

Storynory

01:47 min | 5 months ago

In Early May

"In early May by bliss common. Hello this is Jonah. And I'd like to read a poem out today that I like to dedicate to my beautiful mother whose birthday is on the first of May in early May by Bliss Carman. Oh my deal. The world today is more lovely than a dream magic Kim's from faraway honed the woodland and the Stream Moma's in his rookie. Bad things that never can be sad story. Dogwood is in flower gleaming through the mystic woods. It is beauty's perfect. Our in the wild spring solitudes now the orchards. In full blow shut that petals white as snow. All the air is honey sweet with the lilacs white and red where the blossoming branches meet in Ann Arbor overhead and the Laden. Cherry Trees Murmell with the home of these. All the earth is fairy green and the sunlight filming gold full of ecstasy's on scene full of mysteries untold. Who WOULD NOT BE OUT OF DOOR NOW? The spring is here once more and that was in early. May by Bliss Common.

Bliss Carman Stream Moma Jonah Ann Arbor Kim
Cross

22 Hours: An American Nightmare

1:01:43 hr | 1 year ago

Cross

"We'd like to thank our sponsors for this episode could find a list of our sponsors and Promo codes from this week in the episode details available at Podcast One dot com previously on twenty two hours an American nightmare. We begin with rather big development from the trial of those suspected killer of the civil bill is family and their housekeeper. That man took the stand in his own trial. I mean it's a perfect puzzle piece. It fits right in I now but the thing is there's a way that makes me suspicious of that. You didn't know at died a year ago no Ma'am I don't have no I. I couldn't call air when I was locked up. I don't have a phone you had no idea no man. He's being called a major crime scene as homicide investigators examined a house that caught fire in Northwest D._C.. Crimes N._J._I._T.. People child inside on the floor right now does not have here that this was just a random crime hit kidney believe more than one person is responsible for the crime a wide reaching manhunt for Darren win stretching all the way to New York City had to be on a piece across how to his D._N._A.. Get into that House that I'm going to do what he did. A four people including including a ten year old boy is just beyond words they were brutalized and we saw the evidence that jury has just reached a verdict in the murder trial of Garin wins he was going to strike the American dream just by committee murder. This is is twenty two hours an American nightmare prosecutors said the reason that Salva Amy Phillips of opelousas and Vera Figueroa were murdered was pure greed Darren went wanted money and and he got it forty thousand dollars but if this crime was all about getting money. Shouldn't there be evidence that Darren went planned it. There isn't any it's one of those questions at his frustrated us through the trial and as we've worked on this podcast investigators pulled just about every search Darren win ever typed into a cellphone. We've already told you about some of those searches that took place after the murders but before the murders Darren search history seems normal to be honest searches for movies T._v.. Shows Music and cars. The spreadsheets of his searches were filled with queries for different kinds of luxury cars like Audis. B._M._W.'s Maserati asked and Martin's Range Rovers Chris Corvettes and yes porsche nine eleven turbos the same Macon model of the car. This of opelousas owned the same kind of car that was driven from their home after the murders and then later set on fire okay so we searched for cars but it's what he didn't search for the confounds US Darren went never search for this hopeless as address he never searched for directions to thirty two zero one woodland drive or even to the families neighborhood. He never searched for American ironworks works his old employer in the months leading up to the murders. He never even searched this hopeless name so how dare know where they lived. Yes he worked for Sava but that was years ago. Ask yourself this do you. You know the street address of the C._E._O.. Of Your Company what about the company you worked for ten years ago. There is nothing in Darren win search history nothing that we saw that offers an answer when Darren took the stand hand in his own defense he didn't deny he was at the Surplus House and May Twenty fifteen but he had a simple explanation for how he got there. He never had to search for the address because he was taken their Darren sat on the morning of May fourteenth hours before for the spotless house went up in flames his brother Durell went picked him up in a portion nine eleven turbo and drove him to woodland drive in this episode. We're going to continue delay out for you. What happened during daring cross examination as prosecutor? Laura Bach tried to poke holes in his testimony Darren took the stand and said he wasn't anywhere near the family's House on May thirteenth the day Amy Sava Phillips surplus and Vera Figaro taken hostage. He said he was staying at a friend's house at Ed's House we later learned Ed wasn't going to be taking the stand devout for his alibi. Ed was dead so he couldn't account for Darren whereabouts. During the twenty two hours victims were taken captive and then killed. We had to take Darren's word for it Darren testified. He left his phone in his minivan that he loaned his brothers so he was stuck at Ed's house waiting for for Durell to come back. That's the part of his story where we pick up. Laura box cross examination so I guess at what point is it too late to just get on a bus and go home. It wasn't it was actually I wouldn't say was a point but after the drinking I fell asleep a reminder. These are not actually the voices of Laura Balkan. Darren went our colleagues Lauren Larsen and Claude Jennings are reading from the DC Superior Court transcript right the drinking win. Did you start the drinking looking after i Costa five between close to five o'clock surround five o'clock start drinking I know derail was on his way back soon because he said between five and six figured by the time I finished. It's the first drink he would be outside. See take one drink of what it was vodka. I know it was white. I don't know exactly what kind of bucket was see. Sat there all day right yes ma'am what did you do after it would fix cars would just outside and hang out and just talk see you're hanging out with that right. Yes ma'am outside and everybody else yes ma'am well. WHO's everybody else? All this brand's comes and goes who are they tell us who they are. Omo these people man so the only person you can remember as Ed who's dead. Yes man all right so you sit outside with Ed and at five o'clock you take drink vodka. Yes ma'am and then what happens then we just have a conversation. I was waiting for the route to come back. What are you guys talking about talking about cars all right? You like cars right now. You know a lot about cars don't you. I know a lot about him. You wanted Nice cars. Didn't you yeah okay. I mean nothing wrong with one nice cars right. Moma couldn't afford them. Though could you know so drill doesn't come back. When do you start drinking some more? I was just hanging out and drinking waiting for derail who was on his way back. Yes man. Do you have any idea what time you went to sleep. No ma'am I just remember Ed telling me to lay on the couch for a minute and then it's one of those things were you does off and you're Kinda like oh goodness. I've been asleep for a couple of hours. Yes ma'am I woke up into place was Kinda Dart Okay and that's around one in the morning. He thought it was after one yes man okay and you knew that because why because there's a big clock right there in the living room sure and then you go back to sleep yes man okay. And how long did you sleep that time time. I got back up around after ten o'clock prior to that you didn't you know here anybody you know Kinda trying to wake you up or anything right no man. You didn't hear any loud strange noises while you're sleeping ma'am. I didn't hear anything okay nothing unusual right Moma no gunshots or anything like that Moma during this part of her cross. We weren't aren't sure why Laura Bach was asking Darren. If he'd heard any loud strange noises or gunshots while he was sleeping you learn sitting through hours of court testimony that attorneys often ask questions without giving them any context without signifying why they might right matter usually those little details that seem obscure at the time comeback into play later on so even though we didn't know anything about any loud strange noises at Ed's house and apparently Darren didn't either Laura Bach had something upper sleeve okay back to the cross examination and what happens when you wake up a wash my face and went outside and then what happens then a blue convertible porsche pulled up okay and it's not just a blue convertible Porsche. It's a special kind of Blue Porsche right. I saw convertible blue pours. I don't know what Kinda portion was when it pulls up you know it's a nine eleven turbo right. I know is a non eleven turbo. Oh you know that's an expensive car right. Yes ma'am you know it costs about six figures no ma'am you didn't know that are just know is not a regular car than anybody could own. You know it's not a regular car that anybody anybody could own by that you mean it's a very expensive car. Yes ma'am I would think in the same price range of a B._M._w.. Mercedes all right so the Blue Porsche pulls up and this is who's in the car. I didn't know who was in the car at first well at some point you figure it out right yeah. After he stepped out the car a realize it was derail. Now at this point Lauterbach zeroed in on the time when Darren said Durell drove up in the Porsche Porsche Darren said it was some time after ten in the morning. Why is that important you heard in trial you heard Claudia Alfaro the daughter of Vera Figueroa testify that she saw amy's Blue Porsche at nine thirty in the morning on May fourteenth eighteenth? You heard her testified that right. Yes ma'am remember Claudia testified. She and her dad went to woodland drive looking for Vera when she was waiting in the car. Claudia texted her husband a few pictures of a porsche part on the street so a you know that you can't say Durell pick you up before nine thirty right. It's gotTa be after ten. I'm telling you that because that's the truth I'm asking you. Did you hear her testify to that. Yes ma'am you also had the phone records about where it was. Sava of opelousas phone was bouncing off the Cell Towers is that right yes ma'am and again when we're talking about Savas of opelousas phone and we'll get to this we're talking about those rose to white iphones that you had on May fourteenth is that right. I Dunno where those phones come from really. You don't know that one of those phones are both of those founds belong to this of opelousas no man you haven't haven't figured that out yet no man and you did not know that we had the records showing inside of your phone you had typed twenty four and k about the location of the minivan. Yes man and you know all of that before coming in here with this timeline in terms of win it is Durell went just happens to show up at Ed's House on May fourteenth in this blue Porsche convertible. I didn't come up with that time. I ma'am I'm telling you the truth of what happened. You didn't come up with a timeline. I'm just telling you the truth of wind around actually showed up. You haven't been sitting over here writing time line. Tom Ana Wind Durell showed up. No you haven't been sitting here at this table writing time line throughout this trial right Automa- yes writing at time line Momo you haven't been sitting here taking notes on what the witnesses are saying writing at timeline. I'll take notes but not those Kinda knows no timeline nomo during the next court break judy pipe asked the judge if she'd clarified to the jury the Darren Wind had every right to hear all the evidence against him. It's a right and trying to the constitution. She argued it wasn't fair for Lauterbach to suggest his hearing other witnesses. Testify was somehow improper. Bach agreed Darren had the right to hear the evidence against I him as the defendant but she said she wanted to point out to the jury because of that when he took the witness stand it gave him the ability to craft his story around the evidence that was already presented. The judge agreed to say to the jurors to instruct them. The Darren wind had a constitutional right to be in the courtroom and to hear all the evidence against him and the trial resumed at this point in her cross examination Lauterbach starts to ask Darren about what he said happened when he arrived this hopeless. Let's House with Durell and when you to the House on Woodland Drive Durell parks the car according to you on the street in front of the house is that right yes ma'am and Durell goes up opens the door right. Yes ma'am not wearing gloves loves. Just unlocks the door right. I didn't notice nothing I just know. He ran in the door so he could have been wearing gloves now. He could have been or he might not. I didn't pay too much attention. Was He wearing gloves in the Porsche warsh. I wasn't paying attention. You wouldn't have noticed if he had big construction gloves on as he's driving I would yeah so. Was He wearing gloves when he's driving the Porsche. I can't remember if actually paid that much attention so you don't remember if he's wearing gloves no man no. You can't remember or no he wasn't. I can't remember if he was wearing gloves. I didn't pay that much attention so you didn't pay attention to whether he was wearing gloves in the Porsche. No Man you go up to the house. You don't know if he's wearing gloves when he gets to the house no man but he opens the door. Is that right. Yes ma'am and you think you're going there to go do thirty minutes worth of work. Is that right. Yes ma'am some pain him drywall. Yes man okay so you get there. You have to thirty minutes worth of work right. Yes man that's it yes ma'am and then hopefully at that point you can get your mini van and go home right. Yes Ma'am Okay and so you get in there and you decide to go have a seat in this sort of Nice receiving room right yes. The royal told me sit right here. That's what you do. When you go working somebody's house? That's what he told me to do. I'm asking that's what you did. Yes ma'am that's what I do okay and incomes Durell with this pizza box now. He definitely has gloves on you think right after he opened the box is when I noticed the gloves you don't even know that he had the gloves on when he he brought the box in when he can you repeat the question so you don't actually see him wearing gloves when he brings the box in when he brings in the box just explained to me how he brings the box in. Okay he went up the steps. I know he went up the steps because I hear the footprint he came back down with the box and he opened the box with the gloves and I say why are you holding the pizza. You're about to give me to eat with these dirty gloves and he's like. I'm just ready to work. He said I have the box. I'm not grabbing the pizza so he brings down a pizza box sits it on the table opens it up for you. Yes ma'am with these dirty gloves on yes ma'am and then what do you do took a slice and where's Durell darrow standing right there. He just stood there and watched you eat it well. I don't know if he was watching me. Eat It. That'd be Kinda creepy right. It'd be Kinda creepy. So what does he do. He just standing there talking to me what I was eating pizza. Does he stand there the whole time I think so yes my okay and while you're in the house don't hear any noises upstairs. Moma don't hear any chairs ears making any noises right no man no scratching on the floor. No Man don't hear any dogs either. Do you hear the dogs man. Oh you did hear dogs. Yes man okay. When when did you hear the dogs disturb Barkan? You heard barking. When did you hear the barking when I was sitting at the table? Oh when you're sitting at the table the whole time or just part of the time Hotan the whole time was allowed was quiet. The dog barks yeah the dog barks. I don't know if it was loud or but there was dogs barking I would say loud. Did they sound closer looser far away. They sounded like they was behind where I was sitting and I guess he just failed to mention that on direct judy pipe objected and the judge asked Laura to rephrase her question. I'm just asking. Did you mention that yesterday Monday. I can't recall. I don't think I was even asked the question. Will you were asked yesterday if you heard any noises and you said No. Do you remember that the question was if I heard any noise and okay a yes. I didn't mention that this actually seemed like a pretty big deal. We know the families to Chesapeake Bay retrievers ginger and bear. We're at the House of the time that Amy Sava Philip in Vero were killed when the wallpaper installer Donald Spence called nine on one he said he could hear the dogs inside but in the very detailed story Darren laid out for his lawyer of going to the House with his brother and sitting down in a fancy receiving room and eating that slice of pizza he never said anything about hearing dogs bark. Maybe he didn't think it was important. Maybe he forgot about the dogs or maybe he couldn't tell anymore. What was the truth and what was ally? This episode of twenty two hours is brought to you by lifetimes book to screen where the best sellers make the best movies from the best selling author of flowers flowers in the attic comes lifetime highly anticipated V. C. Andrews Five Part Movie Series Event Starting Saturday July twenty seventh at eight seven central the saga begins with Heaven Introducing the infamous Castille family the at least regarded of all the families living in poverty stricken foothills of the mountains of West Virginia. The eldest daughter Heaven was still the smartest girl in the backwards and determined to Redeem her family name heavens dreams become deferred after selfish father devices a scheme scheme to sell her and her siblings two different families and she has sent to live with her father's tormenting deranged ex-lover in her new home. 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The prospect top fuller POPs and fraudsters are only seventy nine cents each at Circle K. at a time when we participating locations Darren went is going up against D._C.'s top homicide prosecutor Lauterbach they both clearly have their own agenda. She's trying to get him to trip up and reveal holes in his story of what happened on May Thirteenth Fourteenth of Twenty Fifteen. He's trying to get out of this without incriminating himself. We pick up after daring testified. He ate the slice of pizza inside this of opelousas house he then said he went out to the Porsche to retrieve his phone and his brother Durell had told them to meet him around the side of the house in the garage. That's when to grounds workers. At the Australian ambassador's residence across the street saw a black man with dreadlocks and a string backpack slip under the garage door as it was opening. They said he never touched touch the door it seemingly opened four him and closed behind him. Now Mr went when you go into the garage at thirty two zero one woodland you actually go into the garage by yourself. Is that right yes man and when you go into the garage what time visit had to be around eleven eleven thirty I mean between like eleven forty five twelve o'clock. Okay is Durell in the garage. Yes man what's Terrell dealing. He's just standing there okay and then what happens and then he just hands me agreeing construction Beth and you just put it on yes man and he hands you a hard hat. Yes man and you just put it on. Yes ma'am no idea why at that point you know what I ask them okay so you put them on and then you ask him. Why am I putting these on? Why do I need it just to do some paint drywall in the house and it's at that point that you said he tells you will be less conspicuous perspicuous unloading the house? If you're wearing these things right yes matt bows terms but yes the point is you're not gonNA stand out as much if you're wearing construction best right yes ma'am because it will look like you're working on the house right yes ma'am and when he said to you about unloading the house you knew what he meant right. Yes man and you don't want any part of that. That's your testimony. Momo and you're upset right because I'm here to do some honest work not to steal from the house right. You're upset. Yes ma'am I mean your brothers. Just totally lie to you right well. Yes ma'am yeah. He told you this was honest. Work Right yes and he's lied. Hi De Right yes man and he got you into something that you weren't expecting right. Yes ma'am I'm not stealing right because that's not what you were up there to do right Moma and you took off that hard hat and us through through it on the ground right. Yes ma'am I was upset because you were angry right. Yes man and you stormed out of that garage right. Yes man yeah. How'd you get out? He opened the door. Oh he opened the door backup for you. Yes man as your storming out. I don't I couldn't open the garage door. He locked it so he opens up the big garage door for you know no. I was walking up there the garage door open and I kind of went our ducked under and winning. I'm asking you how you go out Laura box unrelenting cross examination was beginning to weaken Darren story. He said he just slipped into the garage got an argument with his brother and stormed out but it doesn't really make sense in his story Darren's refusing to do it as brother wants he throws the hard hat he so mad and when he turns to leave Darrelle helpfully opens the garage door for him and then as he walked away from the garage about five ten minutes later he said Durell drives up beside him in the Porsche. When he pulls up he said get in? I said no he said <hes> I'm taking you to your van and I get in so even though he's just ask you rob or burglarize a house you get in the car. Yes ma'am I wanted to get to my van and let's just talk for a moment about this car. You said it's in your mind. It's like a B._M._w.. Right I mean is just as expensive. Yes ma'am tell me this. You knew the Porsche wasn't Burrell's. Yes ma'am I knew it wasn't he. Just asked you to seal everything from these people's home right. Yes now and you decided to just get in the car with him because he said he'll take you to this fan right because I don't think nobody will be driving around in the stolen car really you didn't think he might drive around in a stolen car Moma according to you he lied to you about the fact that it was a legitimate job right. Yes ma'am according to you. He lied to you about why he needed your van right. Yes ma'am according to you. He lied to you when he said he was coming back to get you on May thirteenth right. Yes ma'am and according to you. He lied to you when he said he needed to take you there for thirty more minutes of work. Is that right yes ma'am. The youth thought that he would be totally really above board about this car that he was driving that he can't afford yes ma'am. I just wanted to get to my van. I never thought about from across the standpoint. You have to be aggressive enough that the person looked bad ad and looks guilty but you don't WanNa put them in a position where they look like they're being picked on vulnerable. You know like you don't want the jury to see them. As the victim that's audio of a calling me Jack on the day of Darren's cross examination and we bordered that and this other reporter agreed with me he kind of had the impression that her demeanor went a little bit over the top like she raised her voice a lot. She <hes> kind of repeated the same questions over and over again and she was a little hostile in how she asked the questions was boarding. I'm bullying and he was good a lot of that strategy got answer right like that interest from win that she wanted and got him to kind of like falter in his his storyline. We asked Glenn Kirschner about the strategy behind questioning a defendant. He's the former federal prosecutor who hired Laura Bach and led the homicide division at the DC U._S. Attorney's office. How do you do that? You know you want to show the jury that you're not buying the story but you also don't WanNa make them come across as sympathetic for any reason it's an art lot of science and everything that Laura does in court every question. She asks a defendant on cross-examination. She's aware of the impacted has on the jurors because that's what it's all about and yes jurors WanNa see you push a a an accused killer hard on the stand and test every aspect of his his or her story that they've just spit out on direct examination which you know was extremely rehearsed which you know was entirely exculpatory designed to get him off whether he committed the crime or not you know and one thing that I always argued to you might juries after a defendant chose to testify very few homicide emerged defendants choose to testify because it doesn't end well for them after we cross examine them but I tell every single juror jury you know ladies and Gentlemen when you saw the defendant chose to testify and he got up from where you've seen him sitting behind defense table for this entire trial any walked across the well of the courtroom and he sat his butt down on the witness chair. What did you expect him to say okay? You got me. I did it no he was going to have have to come up with some ridiculous explanation for all of the incriminating evidence why because he wants to get away with a crime he committed so jurors. WanNa see you go hard after defendants thereabouts certainly did that. Hey guys it's Elizabeth over at podcast one. I'm going to tell you about my experience and why I chose to get simplisafe system. I had the loveliest chairs on my porch. I was so excited to relax them this summer but one day I got home from work and they had been stolen which was so surprising to me. But did you know most break ins happened between six A._M.. And six P._M.. Right in the middle of the day and there are over two million burglaries reported every year. That's one every thirteen seconds and what's crazy. Crazy is that only one in five homes have home security. Maybe because most companies really don't make it easy. It can take forever to get set up. It's expensive and sometimes they have long contracts. 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In Amy's Blue Porsche nine eleven toward Prince George's County Maryland Darren said they ended up pulling into that parking lot near the the church in the Lafontaine Blue Shopping Center. That's where we pick up Laura box cross examination and just so we know and understand. You said that you were familiar with the area and that parking lot because you said your sister lives over there right yes ma'am my sister lives in the back in my brother brother lives across the street and your brother is your brother Stefan right. Yes man okay well. There's another reason you're familiar with that area right not to my knowledge right now. No Mr went who else used to live there. Oh me yes yeah you yes Ma'am Lord Bach than started describing that area around the parking lot the overgrown brush and weeds that was full of trash. There's a lot of let's call all at sketchy stuff. Maybe the goes on. Is that fair to say. I never really pay attention to what goes on there. You didn't ever see anybody. They're doing some illegal. Things sometimes no man you never saw anybody just kinda hanging out in that area people hangs out on the steps coming out of the walkway and in the church parking lot okay so people hang out in that area yeah people always hang out there all right drinking. Yes sometimes using drugs. I would assume so yes maybe even some prostitution every once in a while I see on that Jack and I had also noticed that tangled thicket when we went to visit the parking lot and spotted the charred patch asphalt where the Porsche was burned but during Laura box cross examination we couldn't really figure out why she was asking these questions about rumors of sketchy stuff. That apparently went on there so what happens when Durell gets to the parking lot with you in the fourche. He said he got a pick somebody up at five o'clock to get done what he needed to get done. He can't take me to my van anymore. Okay then what happens then I got pretty upset and stepped out of the Porsche and I thought a vest atom when you say pretty pretty upset. What do you mean by that of set to the fact is that I he was supposed to take me to my van second? Take me to a house where you're stealing stuff third. He brought me all the way to Maryland and back and I didn't get my van yet. So what happens at that point. The rail pulled off okay so you're standing there. You've thrown the vested him. Where do you go? I was about to walk over to the bus. Stop Okay and what happens as you're walking over there. I realized the rail hadn't given the keys to my van head. You asked him for them. No you asked him multiple times to take you to the minivan but you never bothered to ask for the keys because he yes man I'm asking yes or no. Is that what happened. Yes ma'am yes. Ma'am Darren testified earlier that when he realized she didn't have the keys he walked over to Annapolis Road and flagged down tow truck driver Darren said he paid the driver one hundred bucks wchs from the three hundred Durell given him and then road with the driver to twenty four K. streets in downtown D._C.. To get his van during the trip he sending texts and calling different people from the drivers phone including Durell but why did Darren have his van towed back to the parking lot. Laura Bach made it clear that didn't make sense and again. Why did you think Durell is going to be here because he's opposed to come back and pick somebody up? He said so. He said he was actually going to pick them up right here. Yes ma'am and this is the same Terrell who's lie D- What six seven times at this point yes man all right and Durell knows where your Father Dennis lives right. Yes do okay because that's his dad to. Yes Man Andrew L. easily could have just met you at your Dad's house right. Yes ma'am no reason why that van couldn't have been to- Dear Dad's house no man all right but instead of towing showing the van to your Dad's house you decide to have it towed to the very place where the poor starts burning with an hour is that right yes ma'am and the only reason you had your minivan towed you said is because you didn't have your keys right. Yes ma'am well. There's other reasons why you don't want to be driving unregistered minivan right. I mean the fact that's unregistered well right what happens when you're driving an unregistered minivans. Sometimes it's unregistered well yeah so you get pulled over right. Yes man you could stop by the police right yes man and when the police stop you. They don't just stop you. They look in your car right. Yes ma'am and if you've got any stuff that you've maybe just taken out of a house else. They might see it right. I understand that question well. If you've got stuff that you shouldn't have in your minivan. The police might see it if they stop it. Don't you think will the police will know what I should or should not have you don't think they would maybe recognize bloody clothes. Yes they would recognize bloody clothes okay so that would be the kind of stuff. You don't want the police to see I mean if you commit a crime. I wouldn't think so no the mystery of y Darren might have wanted it is van towed didn't seem so mysterious anymore. He couldn't risk getting pulled over for driving violation. The police might search his mini van or take it and arrest him and you are very very concerned about your minivan getting linked to thirty due to a one woodland drive. Is that right yes ma'am you had concerns that you might also be arrested. Is that right. Yes ma'am and you thought you might also be arrested because you're van could beat connected to that seeing yes ma and so that's why you felt the need to call Mr Ailing to have him help you burn your minivan. Is that right yes ma'am and you thought it could be connected to the fire. Yes ma'am because derail wasn't telling me anything an hour after that phone call to Mr Ailing asking him to help you burn the minivan. The minivan is burned right. Yes ma'am and think that's the time I'm not sure you don't remember that testimony. I can't remember the time it was burned. While you heard Mr Ailing testified that he talked are you at eleven sixteen on May fifteenth right yes Ma'am and you heard the Fire Department or the firefighter indicate that he responded to the scene of fifty I and frolic right around twelve thirty on May sixteenth right. Yes Ma so that's a little over an hour right yes ma'am but you didn't have anything to do with it. Moma and fifty I and frolic again. That's the same location it's less than a block away from where you worked for eight or nine years right. Yes ma'am and one of the things that you told us was that when you I saw the news that that house had caught on fire and those people have been killed. The ferry first thing that you'd looked up was how to beat a lie detector test. Do you remember that yes Ma'am and the reason you looked it up. was you're very I thought was. I'm going to have to lie to the police about this. Yes ma'am because my van was involved. They will be questioned me about my van. You're very first instinct was that you were GonNa lie to the police lease. Yes ma'am Darren went spent an entire day on the witness stand being grilled by Laura Bach. Several of the exchanges were uncomfortable to watch on T._V.. Big courtroom scenes are always dramatic and exciting but in real real life the exchanges were mostly about the minutia of the case. Sometimes they were awkward and they often fell short of the drama you'd expect but as she approached the end of cross examination the tension in the room began to ratchet up all right and we've already established published you went to the gym all the time right yes no. You're not gonNA have any problem overpowering a five foot eight-man are you. I was strong. I don't think so okay. You're not gonNA have any problem overpowering fifty seven year old female right right no ma'am. I don't think so you're not going to have any problem overpowering a five foot four hundred thirty eight pound woman right yes Ma and you can certainly overpower a ten year old boy. Is that right yes ma. You've lied to Vanessa Right. Yes man you've lied to your Father Dennis Right. Yes ma'am you've lied to your stepmother Pam Right yes man. You've lied to the police right lots of my stepmother. You didn't lie to your stepmother. I can't remember when I tell her la. You didn't lie to your stepmother about where you've been on May Fourteenth and may thirteenth we didn't have that I was having a conversation with my father. Oh so she was just overhearing it but it wasn't directly to her youth man you are not at home on May Thirteenth and May Fourteenth of Twenty fifteen is that right no man and you were at thirty two zero one woodland on May fourteenth no man on May fourteenth. You were at thirty two zero one woodland right. Yes ma'am yes man. You're the guy who's D._N._A.. is on the pizza crust right. Yes ma'am and you're the guy who's D._N._A.. is on the peace across because as you're the guy who's eating pizza in that house is that right yes man on May fourteenth. Yes man and just so everybody I guess is aware you're the guy who's wearing the construction vest. That's found in that burned up Porsche. Is that right. Yes ma'am and it's Your D._N._A.. On that construction vest right I would assume so yes Ma'am I was wearing the construction vests though probably yes man and your d._n._a.. is on it because you're wearing it right. Yes ma'am and you're wearing it at thirty. Two one woodland right. Yes man and your hair isn't a hard hat right. I'll know I'll put the hard hat on. I'll know WHO's hair. It is well. You're the one who put it on your head right. Yes man and you put it on your head inside of thirty two one woodland right yes man and that would certainly explain why your hair would be in the hard hat right. Yes ma'am because I had it on because you had it on at that location right youth man just like you had the knife knife at that location right noma just like you had your hair in that room with those three dead people in that location right noma your hair in the bed next to the bat you used to kill amy and Salva of opelousas isn't that right no oh man I don't have anything else your honor and with that Laura Bach ended her cross examination of Darren went no matter what you like to eat sun basket makes it easy they have Paleo conscious gluten free Mediterranean diabetes friendly and Vegan meal plans whatever you're in to choose from eighteen weekly recipes. It's everything you need to eat clean and healthy so put meal planning on autopilot with a special offer. Try mouth-watering Sun Basket dishes like Healthy Shrimp Pad Thai with Rice Noodles and sugar snap peas or Hawaiian logo with teriyaki chicken and fried eggs there just a few of eighteen weekly recipes. 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Listen for free on apple podcasts or your favorite podcast APP was it Darren's idea to take the stand in his own defense. We'll probably probably never know for certain that falls under attorney client privilege but from a defense attorneys perspective the decision was unusual in the murder case does how badly do not want to Clinton stand tried several murders and and I may have called one glance understand total in my entire career murder case that's Jason downs. He used to work with Judy pipe at the D._C.. Public Defender Service and is now in private practice. We asked him about the strategy of putting a defendant. Don't understand it's usually because it is so difficult to undergo. Cross examination doesn't matter if you telling the truth not getting cross examining is hard for anybody and so you don't want to put your clown to that that kind of pressure so I would I would go out of my way to keep my client off the stand in a general murder case if judy put her Klein on there was a very very good reason for it. It did answer some questions in this case having Darren take the stand. The end provided an alternative explanation for some of the evidence how his D._N._A. got on the pizza crust why he was going into this AF- opelousas garage when the witnesses saw him slip under the door and why he had no cell phone activity during the majority of those two days. If Darren didn't testify there wouldn't have been much of a defense case at all the prosecution's case lasted nearly a month the defense including Darren's Today's on the stand didn't even last week hearing Darren tell his side of the story gave jurors the opportunity to way to competing theories of the case yes the prosecution's narrative had gaps but so to Darren's parts of it really didn't stand up to scrutiny so we don't know well if it was his idea but whether he took the stand was completely up to Darren Judy well enough to know that she takes she's takes job so seriously that she would have had a very long conversation probably multiple conversations with with her client and told him the positives and negatives about testify and then because she takes job so seriously she would've left the decision to him because it's his decision has decision alone and she would not want to rob him that decision after Laura box cross examination judy pipe got a chance to ask her client a few more questions on redirect she started with one of Laura box attack lines Darren was fabricating his defense this fitting it around the timeline evidence collected by prosecutors the legal term for that kind of evidence that prosecutors have to turn over to defense attorneys is called discovery while Judy pipe maintained the Darren had the right to see the discovery she revealed reveal during one of those conferences at the bench that it was her practice in this case not to hand Darren the witness statements before they took the stand. We're not sure why she did this. Maybe it was to prevent him from being accused of fabricating defense based on the evidence but when she tried to clarify his motives and making a timeline. It didn't go very smoothly good afternoon Mr Win good afternoon now. The government has asked you a lot of questions about your knowledge about the evidence in this case. Do you remember those those questions. Yes ma'am okay. was there a whole lot of discovery in this case yes ma'am are we talking thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of discovery. Yes ma'am okay. Have you looked jat a lot of it. Just no okay. Have you looked at all of it. Noman okay we asked our content advisor Julia Ziglar to read Judy pipes part in the transcript and again our colleague Club Jennings is reading the part of Darren this this is all word for word from the DC Superior Court transcripts of the trial. Let's talk about statements from witnesses. The government asked you a lot of questions about that. Yes man. Are you aware that when witnesses go to the grand jury there's there's a transcript made alone burned the trial. Yes ma'am okay prior to this trial starting. Did anyone give you copies of those transcripts Momo. Did anybody read you copies of those transcripts no man. Did anyone sit there while you read copies of those transcripts noman did you eventually at some point read some of those transcripts yes man when when they was on the stand all of the transcripts that you have read are they for witnesses who have testified in this case <hes> confused by that question. I did say that weird. You've said you've read some witnesses transcripts right. Yes ma'am every transcript that you've read is that of a witness who took the stand in this case Noman okay you read transcripts of witnesses who did not testify a rare transcripts right. Ah read transcripts for witnesses. That didn't take the stand you read some who did not testify. Yes ma'am okay. When have you read those? I can't remember but it was a while back. Was it before or after this trial started before the trial started. Did you understand what I was asking you okay. I read the transcript for witnesses that did not testify but witnesses that testified. I didn't read anything okay. Do you understand what I'm saying. No I mean okay everybody that took the stand. Let me try this again. Okay we talked about before. Did you read any transcripts before four. This trial started Nomo okay once this trial started. Did you read some transcripts. Yes ma'am okay when I say take the stand people who were sitting in that same exact chair there that you are sitting in right just now. That's the transcripts that Iran okay. Have you read any transcripts of witnesses who did not sit in that seat where you are sitting noman. Has it been very long day for you Sir Sir yes Ma'am it's clear there was a lot of confusion between Darren went and his own attorney during her attempts to clarify for the jury how he accessed the evidence against him so eventually judy pipe just went right to the point. Are you trying trying to craft your testimony to match what the witnesses have said. In this trial Mr went noma. What are you trying to testify to just the way I remembered so when Misbach was asking you questions? Were you trying signed to be accurate with your answer's. Yes ma'am were you being a bit cautious with your words. Yes ma'am why because I know the government could take your words in twisted and turn into how best suits now judy pipe then in return to some specific questions lauck raised in her cross. Okay Misbach asked you questions about what you heard while you were in the house. Do you remember those questions yes ma'am. Do you remember her saying that. You never mentioned the dogs on direct. Yes man okay. Did I ask you about hearing dogs on direct Nomo so his that my fault yes ma'am okay. Did I ask you what you heard while you were in the house or did I ask ask you. Did you hear anyone upstairs. You asked me if I heard anyone upstairs okay if I had asked you. Did you hear anything in that house. What would your answer have been a hit? Dogs Misbach doc asked you a lot of questions about kind of your physical state back in May of Twenty fifteen. Do you remember those yes no. She asked you whether or not you could overpower people. Do you remember those questions uh-huh yes ma'am. Did you ever overpower anyone in May of Twenty fifteen nowhere. Did you overpower Sava Civil Bolus no man did you overpower amy Sevilla's Noman Phillips of opelousas Noman Vera Figueroa Noman. Did you ever see them while you were in the house at thirty two. Oh one woodland drive noma. Did you have anything to do with what happened to those people no. I don't have any further questions. Finally after two days on the witness stand Darren went stepped down and went to take a seat next to his attorneys attorneys after Darren's testimony the defense called a few more witnesses starting with Ed's neighbors judy pipe had to prove that Ed really did exist. They said yes they knew Ed and yes. He was the kind of guy who would work on your car for a few bucks. The kind of guy who would do pretty much anything for a few bucks and Yes ed was still very much dead as the defense was is preparing to wind down its case. Jack and I wondered what would come next legally. The next phase of the trial is what's called Rebuttal Prosecution can come back and call new witnesses but there's a catch prosecutors can only call witnesses. This is who can specifically refute points the defense brought up in its case so I was googling around and I was reading that sometimes the <hes> rebuttal phase is when the prosecution spring the surprise that's when they can do that before that they really can't this is another call between Jack and during the trial he said unlike discovery when the prosecution has to share what it has against the defense before the trial begins it does not have to reveal its plan for rebuttal but maybe they're holding something back in back pocket for the rebuttal like maybe they were playing this all along. I mean what's the surprise audibly the it seemed to us that Darren taking the stand would probably be the biggest surprise of the trial but there was one witness we hadn't heard from Durell went. We couldn't figure out why prosecutors hadn't called Durell already for one thing we knew going into the trial that that Durell was with Darren when he was arrested Durell had been taken into custody that night to and certainly that seemed relevant and during the defenses case when prosecutor Laura was cross examining Darren went we learned Durell had a larger role in the case. We thought what again this is law cross examining Darren. Now you know in this case that one of the things that you were provided with is the information that Durell provided to the government is that right yes man in when I say the information I mean interviews right. Yes ma'am well correction. I don't think there's a statement from derail. You didn't see the interview from the night that you guys were all arrested or that. You were all stopped noman. You're telling us you. I don't know that Durell gave us a statement that night. You're stopped. I have no no man you have no idea I know he the most I know he was supposed to be testifying. That's but I haven't seen interview you all right. When you say testifying against you I mean coming into the court against you? Yes ma'am duty pipe objected in the lawyers approached the judges bench. The judge flipped on the white noise machine again the transcript reads judy pipe argued prosecutors improperly taking advantage of having Darren on the stand to bring up Durell. She said her client wasn't aware what Durell told police and if prosecutors wanted to talk about what Durell did or didn't do they should've called him as a witness balk countered arguing Darren was trying to frame his brother because of what Durell had told police the judge allowed Lauterbach to continue and her next question questions spelled it all out. Let me try to ask it. I guess as direct as possible you know that Durell went took the police to a location in that block and pointed out a pile of burned debris in that area is that right no Roma and you know that he indicated that you are the one who burned that debris no man. You didn't know that no Ma'am you had no idea no man and you never saw any photographs photographs of burned debris not from minivan but another pile further down that block of burn debris yes Ma'am I saw those photographs you did see those photographs. Yes ma'am and you saw the evidence in those photographs yes chessman but you had no idea what it had to do with your case no man and you never you just kinda threw up your hands like oh well don't care I mean I know this is part of the case because my lawyer had it they wouldn't have nothing. That's not part of the case but you didn't know where that information was coming from. I mean it's coming from the government. You didn't know it was coming directly from your brother. Noma Laura Bach asked the judge to approach the witness stand. She walked up to Darren and handed him a photo. We got a copy later from prosecutors in it. You can see a small pile of ash and other blackened debris now to be clear. This is not at this hopeless house. It's not the same fire with Porsche was burned. It's not the fire were Darren's. Van was burned. There's a fourth fire in this case and it happened just down the road from where firefighters found Darren's burning minivan. It's clear from the photograph of the fourth fire scene. Something was burned there but you can't really tell what except if you zoom in on what looks like wires at the edges of the pile you can see their black zip ties like ZIP ties investigators believe we're used to restrain savas of opelousas. You've seen that photograph before right. Yes ma'am and you're telling us that you had no idea that information came from your brother. d'oro noma it turned out Darren's brother Durell had been cooperating with prosecutors he'd answered detectives questions and he'd lead them to a potential key piece of evidence. Now the question on everyone's mind was wears. Durell it on the next episode of twenty two hours in American nightmare the motive in the case being all about the money is not really explained by the brutality of the crime because forty grand while it means a lot of money but when you hear four people were killed and he left with forty grand. It's like well. That's it we change things up and go into the studio with a guest to answer your questions so far in this case but my brain goes to well. Where was where was Philip? When the intruder came in the twenty hours in American nightmare was written edited and produced by Jack Moore and me making clarity Julia Ziglar is our content advisor thanks to her Lauren Larsen and Claude Jennings for reading the testimony and thanks for listening? Don't forget to rate this podcast and subscribe. We have the full transcript of Darren's cross examination at twenty two hours podcast dot com where you can also see a map of locations mentioned this podcast send us feedback on the blog or on twitter at twenty two two hours pod music for this episode is haters hate by Ramon mess him cast of pods by Doug Maxwell and Spooks Ter- by Wayne Jones both available in the youtube audio library rhythmic pulse by Daniel Birch licensed under creative Commons by attribution four point -O International Twenty Two hours an American nightmare is a reduction of W._T._O.. P in Washington D._C.. What is the W._T._o.? Pierre Up. It's a free APP with everything you depend on W._T._o.. P for only on demand listen live anytime create custom news feeds and get breaking news traffic and weather learns that matter to you free on apple or android. Hey true crime fans. It'd be a true crime if he didn't listen to the Adam Corolla show see what I did there so when you need a little pallet cleanser from the tension of twenty two hours.

Darren Laura Bach Tom Ana Wind Durell Porsche opelousas Laura Dennis Right Salva Amy Phillips judy pipe Ed van Durell Vanessa Right Moma Mr Ailing Jack Lauterbach prosecutor
Working at MoMA: How Does a Collection Specialist Do His Job?

Slate's Working

44:36 min | 1 year ago

Working at MoMA: How Does a Collection Specialist Do His Job?

"The. You're listening to working the show about what people do all day. I'm your host, Jordan Weisman. And I am very excited to welcome you to a brand new season for the next ten episodes. We're going inside the museum of modern art, New York City. Now, I love museums. I only museum nut when I'm on vacation. I'll spend hours and hours and hours dragging my wife through museums wherever we are in the world, but the same time they are also sort of scariest institutions to me. I mean, how does a one hundred million dollar piece of canvas up on wall? So that bunch of people can just come by take selfies with every day. I I don't know. I don't know how that he's canvas ends up there, or at least I didn't really have an idea until I started doing these interviews with the folks at MoMA the museum very generously set me up with curator's exhibition designers and a security guard. So I could get a sense of how the ones and just how it all. Comes together. This is going to be a series for people who like are who'd like museums who you know, you go to the metropolitan near you. Go to Leuven, you're on vacation, Paris, you go to MoMA to go look at starry night, but aren't necessarily an obsessive or an expert. You're not reading art forum checking out auction results. This is a series for people who like looking at paintings and photography some of the people we talked to like, I said are going to have jobs. They you definitely think of when you hear the word museum like ureter or a security guard, and some of them are going to be people with jobs you've never ever heard of like Paul Galloway who I am talking. To today's episode all is a collection specialist at MoMA. What is it collection specialist? I'm not gonna spend too much time explaining that. I'm gonna let him explain that. But for now just sort of think of him as the nerve center as department we're going to go from there. I hope you enjoy. What's your name? And what do you do? My name is Paul Galloway. I'm the collection specialist for the department of architecture and design at MoMA. So before I ask you describe that a little bit more detail. What that actually means? I just want to tell listeners that polish shown up here with a long list of talking points. What's involved in his job? Which is actually the first time. I've ever seen a guest do this before is ever walked in. Just like, okay. I've got seven points about how I'm going to describe my work, which tells me either something about your personality or something about the job you do. So what exactly is a collection specialist? Right. So in my defense. It's also just sort of when people ask me what my job is. I often go a little glassy eyed and try to remember what do I do because it's can feel like really opposite things happening one minute after the other, but a collection specialist at MoMA. Very broadly. Speaking is the knowledge keeper they access point the kind of overall steward of the knowledge and information about the collection. So in architecture, and design my responsibility includes everything from acquisitions conservation cataloguing support exhibition research, framing loans research lecture, I serve on juries. And so it can it can really feel like those duties are really all over the place. Which is why I have to write them down. Working is brought to you by American Express. If you wanna business funding is essential. American Express offers eligible card members, flexible funding solutions business loans, the powerful backing of American Express don't do business without it. Visit American Express dot com slash business or details. We have a favorite ass. Our partner is conducting a survey and would be grateful for your help in answering a few questions, it will take less than ten minutes of your time and participation helps support our advertisers. Please go to slate. Listening dot com to complete the survey. Now, thank you. So I feel like a lot of this episode might turn into me trying to find a metaphor to kind of wrap all that together even possible. But so what you're describing their sounds a little bit like a little bit of like a database like human database sort of. And also, you're like end, you're the caretaker you're the gardener for the for this collection to think of myself as a shaman a shaman. Okay. I'll get a little bit of a shaman. Okay. So I think in order to understand job. I have to know what this collection is right. You know, most museums don't have an architecture and design department. So what is that? Yeah. There's there's only a handful in the United States that have them. Ours is the largest of these collections, and it's pretty broad so architecture is a broad field and design is an extremely broad field. So we have everything from drawings architecture for architecture. We have everything but the building itself, right? So we have drawings photographs models digital files. Cad drawings for design. It gets even more kind of all over the place. We have a helicopter. We have cars. We have an ice cream cone where you have graphic design posters printed. Ephemera? We've got software works video games. We've got the original doklam oh emoji. We've even got performance work to works performance architecture performance architecture. Yeah. There were multiple points in that list where I was like, wait what? Ice cream cone. We have an ice cream cone in storage. Just like it is we smushed one a few years ago. So I had to go and replace it. Luckily, Ben and Jerry's at Rockfeller center makes a really good ice cone. So I went down there and I purchased one. And I really wanted to change the credit line for the work gift of Paul Galloway because I spent fifty cents on this is fun fact, if you go to Ben and Jerry's you can ask for just the ice cream cone, and they will sell it to you for fifty cents important information. If you're starting if you or if you just are really into the cone and not the ice cream. Okay. So you've got everything from digital files to models of buildings to said emoji. Yeah. Including the original emoji that were released in nineteen ninety nine in Japan. And that's that a digital file is that like drying? What is that? It's digital files essentially, the image files that were used on the the cell phones at the time interesting. And so when you're storing that as a museum, you're not storing the only copy of those files. In the world, you're storing or are you we're storing a copy it's the same way if you have a photo collection. Odds are you don't have the only copy of a photo by Man Ray, or there's other copies of but you're storing your copy in your committing to taking care of that copy, everybody else's copies could get blown up. And then you are the source of record for these things. And then you, but then you're also storing cars as well in your cars, motorcycles, bicycles surfboards. We're does all this storage happen for like is there just a giant warehouse somewhere where where do you keep it all and is it altogether? Yeah. It's all together. The museum has storage onsite at the museum of modern, art and Manhattan. We also have a facility out in Long Island city slash Sunnyside, depending on where you draw the border that's called MoMA queens during the expansion in the early two thousand relocated the museum while they were expanding ten Gucci expansion. So that facility was MoMA for a couple of years and that. It has now been re purposed as exclusively storage and research facility. And I guess this is kind of the context that anybody would need to understand this. But you know, what you see them using? It's a little bit of an iceberg. Right. You're only seeing a little piece of the collection. That's there. Yes. And the rest of it is in these storage centers. And that's where you have to be. That's where you come in. Yeah. It's what you see on the wall is what we can have the space available to share with the public at that. Any anyone time? But that should always be seen as a story that it's being told by the curator's at that moment, there's thousands of stories that can be told with what's in in storage behind. So it's it's interesting that we're limited as to how much we can have out at any one moment, but we're still caretakers of everything else. And they're still that potential for stories and MoMA has also has a very active outgoing loan program. We've loan lend hundreds and hundreds of works every year to other museums partner with other museums to do stuff with our collection. So. Even though quite a lot is in storage that still a pretty active amount that stuff has a life, and it's used so to some extent, you're an archivist is another way if they in one way in one way to again to try and simplify, but didn't you said you also play a role and actually acquiring this stuff. Yeah. So did you play a role in Quiring the emoji? I did. Okay. That seems like a good example. So take me through where how did you acquire the emoji? So the project started with Michelle Miller Fisher and Pella Pella is our senior curator of design trying to think of some more humble masterpieces politic very influential show in the early two thousand called humble masterpieces that tried to look at some of the greatest example of design that happened in a very simple manner like that little pencil that you have gone on the classic yellow wouldn't pencils or the post it note, which seems like just a piece of paper, but actually three him engineering that kind of sticky stuff that releases was a real feat of engineering so this exhibition she did. Was meant to call attention to objects that we often take for granted. But actually have a very rich design process behind them. So they Michelle and Palo were trying to rethink this process and came up with one of them being the emoji. So I started working with them on this process, and we figured out where emoji came from. It was a really interesting thing to research and learn so they were originally released by a company called NT DOCOMO, which is kind of the Verizon wireless of Japan, gigantic telecom. So the process is I send an Email into the ether saying, hey, we want your stuff and then weeks go by and then I say, hey, hey, people, and they finally get a response from PR personnel. Like, what are you talking about? When when you sent an Email saying, I'm from MoMA, and I wanna add your piece or your work to my collection. Do you usually get a response? We usually get a response, thankfully, being a pretty well known museum does open some doors, but. When you're talking, and this is the same thing that we encountered when we acquired video games, you Email, Nintendo, or Sony and say you want to do this and their first response or doklam. Oh, the first response is always what do you wanna do what? They're that's confusion. Yeah. I I guess the question why do you want? What do you wanna copy of our game? Why do you want a copy of our of our emoji, especially when something is vastly obsolete? Right. You're talking about emoji from nineteen ninety nine. Nobody's using these things anymore. They have no monetary value to the company or what the same could be said of Sony when we're trying to choir a game from the late nineties that has no monetary value anymore. So you're talking you're trying to help them think of something as having cultural value that they're only used to framing a monetary sense. Right. So it it it often takes a while to sort of twist their brains around your essentially convincing them to take their own work. Seriously, these things especially in the digital world. These things have a life. Dan, they put them out. And then they're already onto the next thing. Right. The thing is and as long as it's still making the money, they're going to pay attention to it. But the moment is no longer making money. It's forgotten. Well, let me ask the philosophical question. Why doesn't matter? Why should they why doesn't matter? If MoMA has a copy of the file in their warehouse on their servers, the burry storing a digital fires a thumb drive somewhere. It's a digital file. Yeah. So why does it matter? If Mullah has file why does it matter if we have any our work? The point of a museum is to highlight certain cultural products that are worthy of great attention. Right. So it's our job to say look at this Cezanne or look at this work by Frank Lloyd Wright, these are really great monuments and chievements and human history, and we should be aware of the creativity. That's going on around us part of the mission of an architecture and design department is to bring forward things that we really take for granted things we use chair. Bears buildings are the most invisible of all we just use them. We don't stop actually look at them. So that takes even more work to make people focus on and look at and we found that the story of how emoji which are now. So embedded in our lives had a really fascinating origin story that we just felt the world should note. So they they can kind of think more critically about these things. And I guess to a large extent putting that file on your server or putting that ice cream cone in your house is making the statement. That's that's real. It's the action of doing it. That's you're saying it's your area. You guys are say, okay. This is an that that you're you're putting your stamp of approval or whatnot. Yeah. It's it's really try by using our loud megaphone because we we do have a loud voice and a very prominent voice. We can call attention to things that say, a smaller nonprofit or smaller institution. Just couldn't get as much attention on these things as we can. So you send the mail. I need you get a baffled response. And then you start trying to expose. To them. What you just explained to me? What do you do next how how did the process on fold? Well, so it was both talking to doklam and also talking to the original creator. She could talk could eat to who was the designer working at DOCOMO in the nineties when they were trying to create the system called I'm owed, which was really the first mobile internet on a cell phone in the late nineties in Japan. They were way ahead of us in terms of cell phone says sure, you know, so she could taco was helpful people. Don't komo. We're actually once we finally got them to think about what we were trying to do they were really on board. And then it just became a question of what does it mean for moment to own these things right, and which gets into some really interesting legal entanglements. And what does it mean to own digital file or intellectual property and international law? Applies to that all gets really fascinating for anybody. Who's interested in law and for everybody else, they'd probably eyes glazing over. Well, no, I can I I don't know if it's possible to give a elevator pitch. But what does it mean for moment to own that, vile? It means we have the right to use the file within the walls of the museum. We can show it. However, we choose and we can print it. We can blow it up. We can show it on screens. We can use the works as the curator's decide. Right. So there's no real restrictions on how these things are used and most crucially they can never be taken away from us. So in the same way that you do if there's a prewar painting from Germany, you're going to do very clear provenance research to make sure there's no like questionable ownership history because you can't bring something into the museum. If there's a chance that it could be taken away the same holds true with digital artifacts. So if it's a video game made by Sony, or if it's these emoji they need to come in. And we need to know that they can never be taken away. And it's what's interesting is that you could make a fair use claim right under US copyright law to do a lot of these things. But if you get into copyright law long enough, you'll quickly find out that the United States system is really idiot and not well Tae. Tailored to digital ownership of things. Right. So by creating kind of one to one arrangement with these companies, you get very clear what the museum can do with it. And it doesn't matter what copyright law does copyright law can change it can get better. It can get worse, but all of that's relevant because we have a very clear arrangement an agreement with these companies. So when the museum and the company are working out, this kind of arrangement what's your role on all at that point? What are you doing? I'm trying to make lawyers happy, which is I'm trying to make the MoMA lawyers happy, and I'm trying to make the IP lawyers at a big tech companies happy to at this point. I could have a second career in making lawyers feel warm and fuzzy about what they do. So are you sort of acting as almost negotiator is that going back and forth between and it's really both trying to understand the legal concerns of parties, both our side and the other side, but also trying to keep the discussion on the kind of what? Museum is trying to do with these things and to continue to frame the debate and negotiations of an around that will give the museum the most latitude and the most freedom and will really give us the best tools to honor the creators of these things to tell the story. Well, do you have any kind of a law background or I have zero law background? Okay. Because that's interesting because it seems like a lot of what you're doing is negotiating over legal rights. It's fun to learn on the job. Can is what was your background? Did you get into this? My background is actually in fine, art and drawing and painting art history. I had no background at all in architecture or design or contract negotiation or contract, negotiate. Is that common is that how people usually end up in collection specialist role. It's it really varies. So there's a collection specialist for each department at the museum and our roles. Do vary quite a lot and that has to do with the nature of our collection. My colleague and photography tasha is dealing with photographic prints and digital files and things like that as well. That's a very different kind of set of responsibilities and needs than say, I have or the colleague in film. Ashley. So it's really there is no like one clear are is the half to this is the is your colleague deals of photographic prints. Thinking more about like storage issues, and preventing it from the prints from yellowing kind of thing. There's there's conservation issues. There's acquisition this you loans and exhibitions we're called in as support for exhibitions and research. So it's I mean tasha is a walking dictionary for all things photography at the museum. This up sort of working is made possible by Comcast business. Business has always been driven by innovators entrepreneurs and disrupters people who've embrace change, but it can only happen with the right partners. That's why Comcast built the nation's largest gig speed network the network powering innovation, but you need more than speed. So Comcast businesses moving beyond beyond connecting business. Helping you provide better experience or customers and employees beyond network complexity zero touch one boss network solutions beyond the best for your money to the best for your business at an even greater value. The company that delivers unrelenting speed is also the company with smart technologies and advanced application beyond what any other provider provides Comcast business beyond fast. Take your business beyond at Comcast business dot com. That's Comcast business dot com today. Now, we're talking about you dealing with the emoji. Let's come back to the ice cream cone does that have all the same legal rigamarole. No cone and put that in the that's the nice thing about physical objects. When you have it you have it. So when we acquire things I often love it when we get a drawing because then it's like, okay, I've got this piece of paper. Here's a drawing done. Right. The session number on the back put it in storage. And that's simplifying. There are actually a lot of concerns for those things. So with the ice cream cone, this was part of the humble masterpieces show, and it included as I said post, it notes bandaids Eminem's sugar cubes and the ice cream cone, which is as you can imagine you take an ice cream cone and stick in storage for a few years, it's going to get brittle. So we went to go check on the storage because we periodically check on these things, and it had been smushed inside. It's very carefully packed topic and tissue paper. And but as I scream cones will do when they get seven years old it got smooshed. So we needed a replacement. How did you pick the specific cone what kind of comb was sugar cone or waffle waffle cone? Because all right. So the idea is that the waffle cone is actually one of those design objects whose history is kind of invisible we all sort of accept it is an innovation by Sergio much Uni in the I think it's the late nineteenth century, the kind of famous story runs out of cups and bowls for his ice cream. There's a waffle Dutch waffle maker nearby takes probably mangle in the story, by the way. He takes one twisted into corn like in an emergency. Dammit. I'll just screaming this thing Tada turns into a brilliant invention. So we've found in our research that the closest equivalent currently being made too much ice cream cone is that made by Bennie Jerry's. Oh, interesting. Eric keeping the traditional they're keeping the traditional. It's an extremely close to the original idea. And so your job is to make sure that you can go you can get it put it in sergeant that I mean, I guess most you can you can re I did a little beauty pageant thing. So we. Laid out like ten cones the people behind me in line Lima real thrilled with this. And I was like I don't know co number a 'cause it's got a little bit of malformed bottom. I go at Combe number. See did you explain this to the people in line? Yeah. They thought it was hilarious. This is the Ben and Jerry's people thought this was really fun. So yeah. I mean, I it's better than another scoop. I guess or it's more interesting. So you've got this really vast and varied collection that you're overseeing that you're shining. So I guess you also have to be an expert on actually how to store this stuff. Right. Yeah. We I work with a preparer name, Pamela, pope's, who's her duties ten more toward dealing with the physical nature of the things. How to store them properly how to handle them? I tend to be more than knowledge and thoughts shaman, and she's Oga. So she's actually you've got someone whose job is just to make sure that the car is not scratched that the ice is not smoke. That the that the designs for the building all, you know, kept in perpetuity, and then your jobs to know how I guess that's all being handled. What's going on and how to get it? Yeah. So we really kind of work in tandem on those kind of collection care needs. So you've got the collection care stuff, which you work with partner on you've got the acquisition stuff. And then like, what's the what are the other big buckets again loans? So we have a very rich outgoing loan program. Both exhibitions generated by other museums that they want to borrow something from us and also exhibitions generated in partnership with MoMA weeded to very large ones in the last year and a half or so we did one in Australia last year and also wanna fundation Louis Vitton and Paris, both of which took very large amounts of MoMA art works to these places. And in some cases, involved really complex projects like in Paris at the Louis Vuitton foundation. We for the first time installed a artwork that we acquired twenty fifteen which was a very large chunk. Of their original facade curtain wall of the UN secretary at building. Okay. So thirteen feet high and twelve feet wide massive the original like, aluminum and steel and glass skin of the building because they had to completely replace the curtain wall on the secretary. And we had it. You've just had that sitting in your warehouse since two thousand fifteen. Yeah. So it's like, how do you? How do you keep that thing very carefully because some of the classes very fragile? But the the bigger question was not so much. How do we keep it? It's how to show it because this thing is the skin of a building. But it doesn't stand up on its own. It's the skin it hangs onto a building. So we had to essentially create a kind of structure that can hang this things. So that people could see it and that involved working with architects and engineers trying to figure this out. So that was so when I say something like an outgoing loan. That's not just here's this drawing. It's often. All right here. We have these pieces of the United Nations building. How do we show them? And so it can be even. Alone can still be a very involved process. So again, tell me like when you were figuring that out what were you personally doing where you going back and forth between an architect to is. You know, coming up with the designs, or what was what was your role? My role was the kind of project manager. So I was working with our curator's. Our chief creator Martino steely, and Sean Anderson and other curator Barry bergdahl, former chief curator, and the engineering firm that we did the curtain wall, which is Heinsohn associates, very big curtain wall engineering firm in New York to kind of frame the debate as to how what is it? We want this object to tell this a piece of a building. How do we want to show this to people that will give them the clearest understanding of what it meant to be a Colonel the UN secretary, by the way, it was the first curtain wall building skyscraper in the United States. So it's really kind of sitting in between all of these different parties. Metal fabricators engineers architects curator's to kind of. Bring the project to fruition to to end that best speaks to and represents the ideas behind it when you are loaning artwork. Is it typically another institution comes to you and says, we know you have this in your collection. We would love to show it ourselves or this. There's some travelling show, or is it you proposing something to them so MoMA generally is the recipient of these things. Some museums are in the business of putting together big shows and kind of selling them to other institutions doesn't really do that so much which museums sort of do that or the Victorian Albert museum in London has a long history putting together incredible exhibitions that are meant to be toured and go around feature design museum, which is in Germany, there's and then other museums pay for the rights to to show that vision. So you're you're typically getting requests from other institutions, we're getting requests, the the two exhibitions we did recently in Australia and in Paris were kind of jointly organized between us than these borrowing institution. And so that was a little bit in between the two it's not exactly them coming to us. And it's on exactly generating it. It was sort of done together with these institutions and sume you're the one who's fielding a lot of those requests, I'm feeling all of your fielding all of their quests. So what typically are other institutions asking for from your guys? Well, it's interesting because you can imagine if you're talk to my colleague, Lilli, Goldberg and painting and sculpture, she probably gets a request for a demo day Avignon or starry night. Like every five minutes is that request ever. Get granted. No. Although I think starring I did go out because we organize co organized a Van Gogh show maybe ten years ago with the Van Gogh museum. Okay. And so they gave us a lot of their great stuff to do a show here. And in return, we had to give them some great stuff to do the show there. That's the only time I can think of lily would know if there's other times things ever walked out the door. But there's definitely a lot of works. Like, absolutely no way. And oftentimes because of conservation concerns, if we're really concerned if this thing gets moved, and when you travel in artwork, it's a lot of danger. But go down as there's not much. There's nothing you can do at that point. It's it's a fiery wreck that you can get another ice cream common. They can get that's that not another starry night. But for your collection, the the architecture and design what typically are other institutions asking for. So it's it tends to be things that are unique to us one of the things in a design collection as you have things that there's other copies of those objects. Right. There's several things that are very unique to moments collection. And the two biggest ones the archives that we are in charge of. So we have the archive Frank Lloyd Wright, which we co own and co care for with the Avery architectural library at Columbia University. So we get a lot of requests for Frank Lloyd Wright's stuff, and we also have the archive of Meese Vandross, the great German American architect. So those two get probably the bulk of all of our loan requests. Because if you wanna do show on me spend or Frank Lloyd Wright, there's nowhere else to go, but to MoMA so how to US or questrom institution. What are you looking for when they're asking about it? Well, we're looking for or is this a serious exhibition is this one that actually does something for the kind of our mission is to support scholarship and a public understanding of these architects and to celebrate critical thinking of them. So is this exhibition furthering that aim or is it just some puff piece that somebody wants to put inside their hotel or something like that? So is it a serious exhibition with series scholarship is it going to get a good amount of viewership. Probably not. Gonna win to a museum very rural environment that nobody's going to go to is this going to actually get some traction. And then also there are works safe to travel, and it's not to say that we only have big famous museums. We did a great alone to amaze exhibition this past spring at the McCormick art museum. Elmhurst Illinois, not a huge well-known museum, but they did a fantastic exhibition. So it was one we wanted to support. So it's really trying to gauge the quality of the exhibition the quality request quest the quality of the institution is a safe place. Or are they just like a shed somewhere in Long Island city? Is it gonna burn down? Is it going to burn down as a professional staff? There's many many factors that go into it. Are you the one making that decision on your own or you working with other people on staff to make that call? So it's I'm again, the kind of node that everything comes so I- liaise with colleagues registrar's department colleagues and the conservation department our chief curator, our senior curator, it's really all of these voices come together to make this decision. And so you all you huddle outside. Yeah. And then you you have to send the back, then I'm the one that either gets to give the happy news or break some hearts. That's that's really interesting to me though. So you're the person who a lot of the smaller museums around America are basically coming to and asking we would really like to show this. Yeah. And you have to be your responsible for getting everyone together to make that decision and being a little bit the gatekeeper. Yeah. Okay. Another shaman gatekeeper archivist. Yeah. I mean, it's it's really a collection specialist is kind of the person behind the scenes. Yeah. The the creators are the public face of the department. They're the ones creating zek submissions proposing works fact positions, and we're the ones making it actually happen. So you weren't designed person when you came into this role. What dreams in the first place? I've always been interested in art. I used to be an artist myself of been fascinated by art since I was a little kid grew up mostly in Oklahoma, and Texas, and when I was I think ten years old we moved to Fort Worth which has a jewel box of museum called the Kimbler museum, which happens to also be an architectural masterpiece. It's Louis Kahn's udub beautiful building. And it's kind of like the Frick. So you know, how the Frick has of small collection, but it has just one incredible artwork? After the other like, a really great Goya, a really great whole bind and over and over and the Kimble's election is kind of like that too. It's small, but really chockablock with fantastic stuff for for people who've enough million Frick aller in in New York has also in this beautiful old robber, baron mentioned pretty much the only good thing. This man didn't his life was leave this mansion mind to turn into a fabulous museum. And he rated. Europe for some amazing artworks. Well, well done. He also he survived being shot by socialists at one point just to give you a sense of how awful Robert baron. He was but anyway, we've forgotten all that great museum. So so you had kind of a collection like that. And that was kind of inspired you your younger. Yeah. And I think it was and I was always interested in architecture because of that building and it sat across a garden from Philip Johnson building as well. The aim and Carter so architecture was always a really big part of seeing these artworks if you ever go to the Kimball you'll very clearly see what I'm talking about. The galleries are very specifically designed with these kind of raised barrel vault roofs with this beautiful light diffusing system that comes down. So you you are very aware of the architecture while at the same time, they are architecture kind of disappears of virtually really beautiful way. It's truly one of the great buildings in the United States. So I I think that sort of continued my interest in art, I studied art and college and also in graduate school. And my first job in an art museum was at the museum of fine arts in Houston, actually, so which is a Meese Vandross building. So I've it's like this is fate. It's fate. And at every point I was more interested in the fine arts. Yeah. But architecture rearing its head again. And again, every place that I went to so how would you say that doing this job has kind of changed your view of the arts, and museums like, what has it changed the way think about them? It has because as an artist or an art history teacher, you are really sort of on one side of the the big industry of cultural production. Right. So you are an say a painter trying to get your painting sold or seen at a gallery or you're an art history teacher, and you're teaching students who may have no background in art. So you're kind of out there in the world, whereas a museum it's very much about taking are in and putting it in the storage facility or putting it on the wall. And so it's this kind of opposite end of it. And so in a way, it's you're getting to see how the sausage is made. Right. You're you're very aware of how exhibitions or put together that it's not some mysterious process that there's actually a lot of intellectual rigor that goes behind that why some are works quired, and others are not that there's a lot of complicated reasons for these things. So it's it's been fascinating to really see it from this institution. Perspective. As opposed to a more on the ground perspective. As of being a practicing artist or practicing art teacher, your the institution of museums. Y'all been dimissed because you're you're the one making it all work. Yeah. I think you see where institutions can be really great. And where we have a really positive and compelling impact on the world. And also how museums can become unfortunately, a little disconnected from the world. And the one of my own personal aims is to continue to force museum to try to re-engage in my own small way. Right. And how how can I continue this outreach to get the museum to engage with the world and engage with communities that it may not be engaging with as much as it should be is that because you're the person acting as sort of the face, or you're you're acting as inet gatekeeper role because of that and also partly because there are certain fields that I've taken a particular interest in video games is one. Now, I've I've lectured and. San francisco. I games calm in Cologne. Kind of talking about how art museums want to move into kind of cultural realm of video games. And really fascinating work. That's being done in that field. So since you ever see this part of the collection, you sort of have it sounds like you have a desire to evangelize it to say that. Yeah, I do. And it's this is again something that started with palace. She's like the fearless kind of blazer of trails, and it's one that I've been happy to sort of pick up and help with because it's it's one that I believe could be getting more attention and more focus. At Merrill, Lynch. It all starts with you. The you've always the last leave the U who hopes to be I retire. No matter what your priorities are your dedicated adviser provides one on one advice and guidance to help you live the life. You want subscribe to the Merrill Lynch perspectives podcast. Get a better understanding our changing world and how get impact your financial future. Listen as head of global research, Candace Browning chief investment strategist, Michael Hartnett and chief investment officer. Chris his e dive into fascinating subjects like why? Smaller American cities, driving economic growth and the good and bad affects of artificial intelligence subscribed today to the Merrill, Lynch perspectives podcasts. Investing in securities involve risks Merrill. Lynch makes available products and services offered by Merrill. Lynch Pierce Fenner and Smith, inC, vay, Merrill, Lynch. Global research is research produced by via the am L Inc. And or one of more of its billions genitive is registered broker dealer. And. Vestment advisor members essay IPC and wholly owned subsidiaries of Bank Corporation investment products, are not at the I c insured are not guaranteed and may lose value. You clearly have a love of architecture at this point. Again. I I don't think architectures the first thing that comes to mind when people typically think about art museum. So like, what goes into an architecture collection? Like, we talked about sort of like designs prints, but like what actually makes that up? I'll start with an anecdote which was the greatest question anybody's ever asked me at the museum because you'll be walking through the halls and somebody you've got your badge on and somebody will just ask you a question, whereas the bathrooms where do I get tickets for the films, and we try to be good customer service providers and try to help them even if you're busy in rushing to a meeting, but a lady stopped me and briefly was talking and she asked me 'cause she's all my badge architecture and design just said where do you keep the architecture, and that sort of blew my mind from it, and I thought wow. Where do we keep the architecture because she's right? We don't have architectures buildings that one curtain wall. We have that one with pieces of buildings have many pieces of buildings, but we don't have the things themselves. Right. So what we have is representations of buildings. Right. So the drawings that were made, and I would say I would wager more than half of architecture collection is a things that were never built. Maybe even things that were never even meant to be built. Right. It's sort of conceptual pieces or visionary pieces. So really if you're trying to make a representation of an idea. Right. That's ultimately, whether it's a drawing or photograph or a computer rendering or something it's really a representation of an idea. Right. And it's it's about helping the viewer kind of envisioned this place that exists in time and space and movement in in a field in a material whether that's a drawing or photograph or a model that is necessarily. More limiting than the actual thing. Do you ever have ideas for things that you would like to see collection and like go to the curator light try to put like, I guess you obviously think about it all day long. So I imagine there has has two point like, well, I running this added at this thing, and I do all the time. And sometimes they say, oh, that's pretty good. Visit I would get out of here. As they should. I mean, that's what that's what their job is. And I feel really fortunate to have worked with so many fantastic people at the museum. I mean, I often joke that I came to this position. I I wasn't hired as a collection specialist. I was hired as a catalog, but I wanted to catalog the catalog or is that your job is basically just to take this print and get who's the artist was the very basic cataloging information exhibition history provenance history in that kind of database stuff. So it's interesting that kind of like an entry level job at museum. It's an entry level job in say a curatorial department. Okay. But it was one that I was thrilled to get and it was really happy. But I came in with very little background in architecture and design, but I was really fortunate that my teachers in this world were Perry. Burg dollar chief curator at the time and Pella and Tonelli's to the greatest curator's of this field in the world. Right. So I have had the great privilege of having all these amazing people to work with. And I think that's really kind of led me to where I am now. Now where I feel comfortable actually going to them. And they encourage this kind of give and take all of our current chief caters Martinez dearly. And he loves this kind of give and take ideas. What do you think about this? What do you think about that? So we really all of bash these ideas around. So now that we think we've started to get our arms around what your job actually is. Maybe maybe begun begun to. I know there's I definitely haven't hit the docking. Yeah. I can see the list, but I'm just I'll put it away. But the I mean, how would you say you spend most of your time? What is what's taking up the majority of your day? I'm sure you are familiar with the scourge of Email. Yes, it's which the buckets are emailing about all day. Well, often my buckets our time zone based right because we do a lot of things with partners in Europe. So when I get in the first thing in the morning, it's who in Europe. Do I need to work 'cause I want to try to get something on their day. Right. So it's knockout anything tapping their with Europe. And then that's often the very first thing, I do when I get is knocked those out, and then so if there's like a loan exhibition there, you're dealing with Paris. Or what I'm yeah. I I've I want to try to get that done on the soon side. So that I stay on top of those things. And then as soon as that's off my plate, then I'll get into the more kind of brain intensive things. I'm I'm a morning person. So if I need to write something because I write for catalogs or things that go online. I like to do that in the morning because then I can close my internet browser put on headphones and opened Microsoft Word and just right and try to get that done. And then after noon than it just becomes a endless potpourri of meetings. And as you're being that node or you're talking about whatever those varies parts. Yeah. I think if the morning is my most productive time. What is your favorite peace at MoMA? What's your piece of art architecture? Whatever that's really hard question. I think this is slightly biased. But it's part of the building itself because we have to the the building of the museum of modern art has kind of evolved. And when might say metastasized over the years from its originally it was in a townhouse. And then it was the purpose built building in nineteen thirty nine, and then it expanded the fifties and sixties, and it's like we slowly mushroom out and keep growing into these different buildings. But since the fifties there. There's been this kind of access behind the museum that I think is one of the most precious spots in New York City, and that's the sculpture garden, which was designed by Philip Johnson and pulls in influences from all over the place. But is I think maybe the place I returned to again. And again as a place to call my brain down to just walk through to inhabit. Yes, I would say the sculpture that is also my mother's favourite. She's she lived in the city for twenty or forty years and every time she comes back. Now, she insists that we go to sculpture garden to see because it a she goat. She's a very popular lady wants to go and say, hi, friend. It's an it's, you know, the building itself or the garden itself might not seem like something in the collection, but we are still stewards of this place. It's incumbent on us to take care of it to we've got colleagues that are really passionate about the kind of plants that go in there the trees that are in. There got sick a few years ago, and I was really concerned about the trees, but they they. Recovered and they're doing great again. So it's it's I would probably say the sculpture garden. All right, ma'am. This has been a lot fun. Thanks so much. Sure. That's it for this week's episode of working. I hope you enjoyed the show. However, before I leave you tag on a little correction, you may have noticed that during our chat polish with the invention of the ice cream cone to Sergio Marchi owning a few days after we talked however emailed me very upset that he had misspoken and the actual inventor was Hello Archie Oni Sergio former CEO of the and pull them up because he's been working on a car related project. Recently, these things happened in any event if you show, please leave us a review at apple podcasts. And if you have any questions suggestions, Email me at working at slate dot com might producer. I'm working is the absolute indispensable jesmyn, Molly, and as a special thank you to Justin de right for the ad music. Jordan, Weisman come back. Join me next time for more working.

MoMA United States museum of modern art partner Paris Japan Paul Galloway chief curator MoMA the museum Frank Lloyd Wright Europe New York City Comcast Sony Long Island Jordan Weisman American Express word museum Bennie Jerry Philip Johnson
A KEY to SUCCESS

Anna Jelen The Time Expert Podcast

18:36 min | 1 year ago

A KEY to SUCCESS

"The time comes way just have to do it to sit down. And think don't do anything else, just sit on white foreign and thoughts will come no distractions. Just see. When was the last time you did this thought it would be a good reminder to do it again. I'm back in Sweden, the place where my harness and maybe can hear it the birds. I'm sitting in the garden and it's a lovely lovely, lovely day, still early in the morning. I cannot describe how beautiful, it is. It's paradise. And if you haven't been to this country, I will inspire you to come here and I would do this on my Instagram account on my stories, feel free to come and say, Hello there. For this week. I was share an older podcast which the one about this phenomenal key to success, which we might forget to do, sometimes wherever you are, and whatever you do plan, some time to sit down, and think alike, this, you're giving room and space for your thoughts, and it's like a massage for your brain. And I hope wherever you all that you get. So here we go. And joy, maybe your first instinct will be boring on that really boring, and you will skip this podcast. But I'll say stay tuned. Give it a chance. Because this topic could really make difference in your life because today I will talk about one of the keys to success if you do this, you will have a huge advantage to everyone who isn't doing it and. Warren buffett. He still does it. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. I'm back in your ear. I'm not yield and your time expert, someone who's always been a Daydreamer someone who loves to think, but also someone who sometimes just wants to observe, and there is when I think, less someone who loves to switch between the three thinking moats more bad this to come in this podcast. Do you want to know what's excess for people having common? Do you want to learn about the tool, which will help you in many, many long situations? And do you want to know what it takes to make a good decision? Yes. Well, then all welcome, you warmly today's epi served. Let's start with the story. It was a normal day at office, I was reading my emails and there, it was a male sent by a good friend of mine without a comment, just a link to an article by then I didn't know which impact this article would have on me. I clicked the link button. And the first thing I saw was a big picture of Warren Buffett one of the most successful, investors and business magnet and title was often, I just sit and think I, quote, he says, I insist on a lot of time being spent almost every day to just sit and think that is very uncommon in American business. I read and think so. I do more reading and thinking and make less impulse decisions than most people in business. I do it because I like this kind of life. I thought that was brilliant. I mean, it's the opposite of what we believe, is to be hard work to sit and think, and this man, does it and I read the article, I remember the conversation, I had with the woman who are interviewed about morning routines. Why morning routines? Because it's topic which has always interested me the morning time. How do people start today? The morning has magic in the air, and it's also time where can prepare yourself for the rest to come for many. It's the hour of power as Tony Robbins would say an I started to interview people about their morning routines. And she this woman, the same as Warren Buffett. I remember she said the first thing I'll do in the morning is to sit down and think would a Cup of tea thirty. To sixty minutes every day. It's my golden hour. It's the time where my thoughts, we show up, which have been Hayden. It's the time where new ideas show themselves. It's the time where I will find solutions for an existing problem. It's the time where I will understand what bothers me on a campy without it just to sit there and think it's a key for success. So that is why my call operators. Have to do it as well. And they can do it at work, this shocks many people like what you let them sit there for an hour and do nothing while the is exactly what the people think. No. But their brain machines are on. It's turning up there. And then they start to write the thoughts down. She compeletely. How many good thoughts have come up in those MoMA? Wants and how new products have been invented in this golden hour. And I'm sure that is why we are the best in this business area. That's what she said, after hearing this, and reading the article I wanted to experienced this. That's what I love to do just try that immediately. So I started doing it and I became so addicted to it that I started doing it as often I can not just in the morning. But for example, every time I would take the train, I don't have a car, you know, but I love them. But I do everything by public transportation. And it's fabulous because to look out the window seed landscape passing by and just listening to your inner thoughts. I love this feeling and they were right. It works. It still gets me so blahdy. Sighted, because it really works. I mean something so simple to sit down and think, and now you understand why I'm telling you the story of this woman or about the article of Warren Buffett because to sit down and think is freaking good tool. And I think that you should try as well. It may appear as a dull and uninteresting thing to do. But when suddenly ideas and solutions are appearing while Hello, it's worth a try, isn't it? Now, let me introduce you to three following topics, which we clearly help you to use this tool for your daily life, and believe me, it will catapult you into new level in your brain chapter one, the healthy brain chapter to what happens when you sit down and think and chapter three how to do it. There is always something to think about, don't you think it can be family or business related thoughts, but often, it's just all the stuff we still need to do our dis the thoughts which will make difference in your life, like, oh, I need to do day sent that, and blah, blah, blah. What do you think? How about trying to spend more time thinking about the big stuff about your vision on life about new ideas to boost your love life, about new ideas to make a difference at work about new tools for better communication with your colleagues or about trying to find a solution for an ongoing problem. Don't you think that these thoughts are making the difference? I mean, of course, to do laced thoughts normally daily thoughts. They shall have places while but not only them and not all. All the time, if you spend time thinking about the big thoughts that is when you will feel the variety in your life where you will actually feel time intensively, and where you go hell yes, that is good. These failing of thinking is a fabulous feeling and it's taking you out new fields. It's adventurous, now let's dig into it. Japa- won the healthy brain in order to keep a healthy brain. We need to be able to switch between three brain moats. Let me explain this once I visited a newer scientist and doctor I asked him about burnout, because at work started to have clients which weren't far away from a burnout and I needed to know more about it. And I will never forget what he said. He started talking about having a rest. However. Every functional system needs to have a break, and how this break often is automated. Let's take the heart as an example. It goes tension relaxation pension relaxation. It's automatic. You don't need to think about it. It goes on its own. He takes an athlete as another example, an athlete my train he spot off. But after that he gives recovery the same importance, and that is how you stay healthy and how you get the most out of your body now. Look at the brain, we need to do to same for our brains. But the thing is it is not automated here. We need to help and support our brain a little, he said there, all three modes our brain needs to experience the mode of full-throttle leaded work letty, brainstorm, let it find solutions. Learn new Lang. For example, or just learn something new just let it rumble. The opposite mode is to complete. Standstill, I slightly thoughts as possible, how well find a way yourself go out in nature star to meditate. Listen to music observe, a tree observe, a glass of water comb, your brain, and your thoughts, down, whatever. But find a way how to calm your brain annoying asked, and the third, he looked at me and said, that's the one in between those two moats where your brain is in normal thinking moat now. Listen good. When you learn to switch between those three moats the food throttle mod the Seton think moat onto standstill moat. You will have a good likelihood to keep a healthy, brain highly interesting. Don't you think too? Switch between the full throttle mode and the call. Download I'll talk a lot about this one on my latest or one of my latest episode called how to slow down and keep calm. But today today, I want to talk about this mode in between the sit down and think moat so chapter two what happens when you sit down and think. I know it's hard to understand the benefit of the sit down and think, thingy, because it might give you the feeling of doing nothing productive. But all yes, you are look now you are giving space to your thoughts and that's what we really needs to do give space to your thoughts. I mean just imagine that you are made by your thoughts, your thoughts are you or you are your thoughts, so let's give them some room. Let's make space for yourself. But also to sit and think mode is a very important process for our brain to experience. Though it still a big mysterious for all the scientists up until today. It is hard to explain what really scoring on in our brain, when we think, but one day, I've read something about the process of the brain doing the cleaning up, when we just sit and think, and, yes, our brain needs to have the space and time to clean up when it is doing that our brain is highly active. It's literally working on what we have been experienced in the last hours or days. It such stem, it gives them the importance, it needs and sorts them out when this is done now. Our mind is open for independent, mental association, them means our mind is now open and ready to decide to find solutions or two percent. New ideas, new thoughts. Total self. Reflection. But for this, we need to give the brain the time to clean it up since I've read this, I have this picture in my head when I sit and think that my brain is doing a recycle it separates waste from important stuff. And I need this to let it happen, just in order to keep a healthy brain to good side effect as that you might find solutions for a problem or that you will come up with different anew ideas. It's really worth it to give your brain this time. Chapter three how to do it now. It's up to you to experience all the exciting stuff. I you need to take your time to find a good place where you can sit down and think maybe it's in your kitchen. Maybe it's outside somewhere. Maybe it's the coffee place. Or maybe it's a very quiet place at nature. Just find this place second. When that is done, you need to find out when you should sit down and think when is the best time for you to do it. Maybe it's in the in the morning, maybe it's in the afternoon, maybe it's in the evening in the beginning tried different times. And like this, you will find out when it's easier for you. Third step ace take your time to sit down and think and make it a habit when you do it. Commit yourself to do it. Don't feel impatient. Now it is time for you to sit down and think nothing all that's all you have to do allow all your thoughts to show up even if they're just trying to tell you, hey, you shouldn't be doing this now tell them, thank you for showing up, but oh, yes, that is exactly what I do in right now I was sit here. And think even if you feel that there is nothing happening in this half hour or even more try to keep up with it. Because believe me, there is a lot of necessary things going on in your brain right now and you will do very good to your brain, and you will keep it healthy. It's always good to keep a paper and the pen next to you. Maybe we'll need to write something down. But usually, I just try to do this Indians and really allow my brain just to go the way it wants to go with. Without influencing. It's too much by writing things down. And yes, you guessed right? No mobile phone next to you, in this moment, the risk of a distraction is just to bake, and you will be a ride with added. And if your thoughts rather worrying, you or stressing, you try to accept it try to let them go gently, like a cloud passing by an otherwise if you suddenly feel that you start to understand, or to see clearer. Well, that is the result of just sitting there and thinking just suck this feeling aim because it's fabulous. A no matter what happens, no matter what your thoughts will be except all of them like this. My dear listener out there. You will be introduced by your own salts. Welcome to your life. We are at the end of this episode. And if you have stick to it until now and here, thank you. I'm very thankful that you are still around. It's another Postle piece I can give you for your life, and I hope you will enjoy the practice of just sitting down and thinking as usually takes a bit practice. And I really do hope that you'll enjoy it now. I'm wishing you a good week. A good time wherever you are out there for now take care until next week when RV back in your ear, again, by, and by the way, I'm talking about morning routines, and how much I love them. And that is why you can download a free program, which is on the have a good day program, and you can find that on WWW dot the time expert dot c h enjoy.

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Ubiquity6: Augmented Reality Platform with Ankit Kumar

Software Engineering Daily

57:31 min | 1 year ago

Ubiquity6: Augmented Reality Platform with Ankit Kumar

"Augmon? Reality glasses will one day. Let us walk through a world where the digital blends together with the physical three d objects will be rendered and superimposed onto our field vision, creating an environment for people to build applications that we can hardly dream up today. These augmented reality glasses are probably three to five years away from being ready for consumer use. But developers are already building augmented reality applications for smartphones. Using apple a our kit, Android, a our core. These augmented reality toolkits, use powerful smartphone processors and computer vision to give developers simple primitives for placing and manipulating three d objects. Most of these a our applications are made for a single phone and AR is useful for a single phone. For example, you could hold up your phone in front of an empty room and see on your phone how it would look if you had an eye Kia couch sitting in the middle of that room but shared August. Reality experiences can be much more exciting shared augmented reality can allow us to play a game of virtual basketball both controlling the game that is synchronized between us shared. A are would let me go to a restaurant and create a virtual billboard in front of the restaurant that only you would see when you walked up to the restaurant and held your phone in front of you. The next time you were at that restaurant. You BIC witty six is a company with the goal of enabling shared a our experiences on kit. Kumar is the co founder and CTO of ubiquity six he joins the show to explain why building shared a are is a challenging technical problem. It requires building a digital model of the real world and mapping that model to coordinates in space. So that users can reliably persist augmented reality objects that each other can see in this episode with on kit. We talk about computer vision digital mapping the increasing power. Our of phone processors and the potential of shared a are. We are conducting a listener survey. And if you are listening to the show, we would love to get your feedback. Go to suffer engineering daily dot com slash survey. And tell us what you like. And what you don't like about the show. You can also sign up for our newsletter by going to software engineering daily dot com slash newsletter. And if you are looking to advertise on software engineering daily, you can go to software engineering daily and click the advertise link at the bottom, you can reach out to me Jeff at software engineering daily dot com. We are looking for q one sponsors. And with that. Let's get on with this episode. This podcast is brought to you by wicks dot com. Build your website quickly with wicks wicks code unites design features with advanced code capabilities. So you can build data driven websites and professional web apps. Very quickly. 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To learn more about web development wherever you are in your developer career, you can discover video tutorials articles code snippets, API references and a lively forum where you can get advanced tips from wicks code experts. Check it out for yourself at wicks dot com slash S, E D, that's wicks dot com slash S. E D. You can get ten percent off your premium plan while developing a website quickly for the web to get that ten percent off the premium plan and support software engineering daily, go to wicks dot com slash S, E D And see what you can do with wicks code today. Kamar you're the co founder and CTO of ubiquity six welcome to software engineering daily. Thanks for having me. So augmented reality started working for smartphones in the last couple years and people have been thinking about augmented reality for a while. But it was not technically feasible. What are the technical changes that have recently made a are a possibility year? That's a good question. So the really two and one I would say is more is more the primary driver. So the primary driver I would say smartphone processing power. And so you see, for example, that a Archy doesn't work past the iphone success, or whatever it is. And that's primarily because there's not enough compute cycles on those earlier devices to support it so smartphone processing power has been sort of growing at a very fast rate, especially nowadays. I think we'll see. Even more sort of acceleration with respect to certain kinds of workloads. For example, many like device manufacturers are introducing these sort of specific neural engines, they'd be called. But ultimately, they're really just matrix multiply chips, and we'll see that excel rating, even more so smartphone processing powers is private critical one. I think and then of course, there are also algorithm and components that have been coming from a number of disciplines to support something like a are actually kind of both computer vision and more classical like robotics. And you know, what would be called slam vio give me more detail on the smartphone technology that has improved with respect to a are. Yes. So it's ultimately it would come down to the -bility of smartphones to implement a system like a ARCHE, which is ultimately would probably be called visual initial Adama Trie. And so or maybe it'd be called slam depending on who. You talked to and this is essentially a computer vision technique that is sort of constantly doing image processing every frame. So as the second to detect sort of key points or tracks or and features in the in the space, and then integrating that very tightly with the gyroscope, dick. So Ramadan in some cases. Like, the magnetometer as well to get a sense of where the phone is in six degree of freedom space frame to frame, so it's very high frequency. It's running sixty second or I think on Android thirty frames a second. And it's very compute intensive which is why if you run an app, for example, your phone is going to heat up probably eventually is going to use a lot of battery because it's really the phone is firing on all cylinders at the time. You sort of have the cameras stream active. You're doing a lot of compute, you're probably rendering things. So the GPA is being invoked. You are also kind of probably listening GPS and the sensors like it's still around or gyroscope. So really the the entire phone is being flexed at that. At that time. You mentioned a kit and Google also has a our core. So Eric it is for apple as an augmented reality developer. What problems do these augmented reality frameworks solve for you? They they both solve kind of the critical core piece, which is there are a lot of sort of systems built around them. And especially in Iowa, for example, Eric it is pretty deeply integrated with a scene kit, which is their three D authoring tool kit, I suppose, but really those sort of integrations are are just kind of sugar on top what the what the IRS Kate fundamentally is providing to you is opposed us of the camera of the phone at a very high frame rate. And then you use that pose estimate to sort of place, a virtual camera in some seen that you might have built in some other authoring tool, maybe not the ones that have been aggression like seeing kit, and ultimately, the kind of key critical piece that. It's providing is thirty or sixty f- estimates of of the cameras pose space, and pose means sort of both positionally so translation as well as rotations orientation in space. So the advancements that you're able to take advantage of at ubiquity six are not just around the hardware and the local software running on the smartphone. There's also advantages to deep learning algorithms that may be running in the cloud or maybe they get trained in the cloud. And they get deployed to your phone deep learning has advanced significantly recently. And this is improved computer vision. What are the computer vision algorithms that are involved in augmented reality? Yes. So just a note bit about what we do. So we do very little on the device we typically delegate to the device manufacturers for the device. A are as. Sort of describing and most of our work is done on the cloud. So you're right about that to answer your question of what is like in a are what is computer vision doing? So we kind of need to decouple or like split up a couple of things. So it kind of comes down to a question of like, what are the features that a are provides. Or what are the features involved in ASO? The core critical piece. I talked about before six degrees freedom high frequency tracking the slam. I'll talk about sort of where computer vision is used in in this in kind of this technique, and it's actually relatively small or it's relatively encapsulated. I would say in one part of the pipeline. But then you can start thinking about things like Ford facing cameras where Snapchat or a lot of apple kind of demos and stuff where you're sort of detecting faces and putting face masks on on faces. And that is a is also a are depending on. How you think of it as well as things like object detection and tracking image recognition? These things are sort of. I think all part of a sort of ecosystem of a our functionality where different absolutely use different subsets of them. I personally consider the core critical piece being the tracking aspect I'll start with that. So in the in that tracking part the high frequency sort of slam system where you're what the what the compute what the algorithm is doing alternately is building some representation of space and using that representation of space to very precisely tell where the camera is frame to frame. And so in this classically, this could be called s FM or reconstruction in the computer vision community in the robotics community and might be called visual inertial Adama domitory or slam. These are actually very similar algorithms. The computer vision side of it destructive emotion or reconstruction is typically thought of as images. Only and high compute availability. Whereas in the robotics, it would be images. But also censor censor data, like gyroscope, accelerometer, etc. And very high frequency so in in really both of these systems. I mean, there are different approaches. But broadly, speaking, the computer vision aspect is really just sort of detecting features in images and tracking them across frames and everything else is sort of an optimization problem. That's trying to do what amounts of sensor, fusion and integrate all of the different sensors like gyroscope accelerometer into some consistent formulation of like. Whereas how has this phone or this camera broadly, speaking moved over the last end frames and so in that in in that kind of regime where deep learning has helped a lot and where it will help is just in that core piece of finding key kind of. Three points in space, and then everything after that is sort of optimization and a lot of kind of geometric estimation and numerical methods that ultimately solve this. It's usually formulated as a big non linear optimization problem where computer vision was that kind of key core piece that formulated the problem at the beginning, but it's really only just detecting these kinds of points in space and matching them, so that's that's kind of the core part the other parts that I mentioned so like detecting your face extracting a mesh of your face. Detecting objects, tracking those image recognition, these are much more sort of core, full and Dan computer vision solutions, let's zoom out and talk about what you're building a high level. And then we'll come back to the engineering questions because there's a lot of detail there in the computer vision discussion, so ubiquity six your building shared a our experiences. Given exam. Title of an experience that you might wanna build. Yes. Sure. So I can talk about one that we've already done actually. So we did kind of a preview of the app at the SF MoMA a few months ago, and we we had to shared experiences there one was there kind of both in the public in these public spaces of this. If MoMA one was ultimately, something like an art exhibit where we put a bunch of sort of floating. So let me take a step back. So the exhibit at the time at the MoMA was mcgreevey this Belgian surrealist painter he has a famous painting of a pipe, and it says, this is not a pipe in French as an example. So he's a very surrealist painter. This was the exhibit at the time. And so it kind of fit this narrative quite well. And so one of the experiences was something like an art exhibit that was very mcgreevey themed, very surreal, and sort of looked around and kind of interact with other people a little bit Baltimore. You're kind of seeing the art. The other was a much. Interactive one, which is probably more similar to what we'll see on in the app, and we we basically put a big sort of sandbox that in the MoMA where you could place every person could place, little blocks and build on top of other people's blocks. And you know, you could basically pick a color of a block and place it, and so you're sort of collaboratively building a sculpture in the moment in a sense. And what you built would be persistent, and you kind of doing it with other people around you, and it sort of there in the MoMA in a person it resides there now, but that'd be an example of kind of a shared persistent AR experience. We are running an experiment to find out if suffering Jinying daily listeners are above average engineers at triple by dot com slash S E daily, you can take a quiz to help us. Gather data I took the quiz, and it covered a wide range of topics general programming ability little security a little system design. It was a nice short test to measure, how my practical engineering skills have changed since I started this podcast. I will admit that though, I've gotten better at talking about software engineering. I have definitely gotten worse at actually writing code and doing software engineering myself. But if you wanna take that quiz yourself, you can help us gather data and take that quiz at triple bite dot com slash S E daily, we have been running this experiment for a few weeks. And I'm happy to report that suffer. During daily listeners are absolutely crushing it so far. Triple bite has told me that everyone who is taking the test on average is three times more likely to be in their top bracket of quiz scores. And if you're looking for a job triple by is a great place to start your search fast tracks you at hundreds of top tech companies. Triple bite takes engineers seriously and does not waste their time. Which is what I try to do with software engineering daily myself, and I recommend checking out triple bite dot com slash S. E daily that's T R I P L E B Y T E dot com slash S E daily triple bite bite as in eight bits. Thanks to triple bike for being a sponsor of software. Engineering daily. We appreciate it. So this challenge of making a shared a our experience. This involves a lot of synchronization because you have different people who are holding their smartphones. And there's network partition issues people people smartphones have different performance, and you want the the a are experienced to be consistent among the different people who are using their phones in the same space. I know this is a difficult issue because we did a show awhile ago about the networking in like interactive mobile games in. This sounds don's pretty simple if similar if you have a a mobile fighting game, and there's a network partition, it can be really problematic because if your opponent just like hit you and your you had a network partition, and you you know, you dropped off network then you have no chance to defend yourself. So tell me about the networking. Challenges of trying to deliver on this spatial sharing a our experience. Yes, louis. So that's that's a very key point is the the networking or the multi player aspect of this. And you know, one of the reasons as we build our sort of continental content that we really try to build networking and multi play really deeply into the framework as a whole is that it's very important, especially in a are to have everything be in a sense, natively networked natively multi-player, and one of the reasons for that is ultimately, a are actually many games or entertainment, but a are in particular sort of trying to sell an allusion and the real world is multiplayer like the real world is network so to speak, and so you really need that networking piece to be solid to sort of sell the illusion that this is actually some content in this physical space in like it just is in the world. So the number can challenge is important. So firstly we decouple. People kind of the more traditional game networking stack. Which is the say make sure the virtual content is synchronize across all peers, we decoupled that question with the sort of a our networking, maybe concept, which is everyone should be in a consistent space right are consistent corner system. So let's talk about the the second one. I because it's a little it's a little simpler, I think in our back end we have a sort of consistent shared cornet system that refers to the space that some experience resides in. So in this case, it was let's say the the blocks building game in the MoMA that lives in some corner space, and the first step is all the peers needs to get localized in tracked by our back end in that corner space, so that they all kind of view space in the same in the same way, essentially. And so that is one kind of service that we have which is really kind. Of the owner of that services. The same owner of the mapping service in the sort of three D representation, computer vision, set of set of infrastructure, so that is sort of a very kind of encapsulate services says, you know, here's a kind of an identifier for coordinate space. Like, tell me where I am in it and do that often and keep me synchronized with respect to that space. That's a little simpler, in the sense that it's doesn't really need to be such high frequency because really if we only update so the first localization is very important. And then after that will update with much lower frequency because we rely on a our kit or the on device air corps, an Android. We relying on device tracking to kind of fill in the gaps between updates that we get from our persistent system because ultimately you can sort of back out from typically speaking, these AARP will report like absolute poses, relative to some origin. But you can always back out. How much the phone has moved from some previous up. Date to our court to are kind of consistent quantum space and composed that against where we think you were in our shared space. And now, we know where you are at this time. So that's a low frequency system. Really? So now you have all peers knowing where they are in this one shared corner space. And now we move onto the problem of synchronizing, the virtual content across all peers, and this is a much more traditional sort of game networking challenge. Where it's gotta be real time. It's got to be low latency, you have to be able to sort of, you know, you can't wait until the server acknowledges every action before you show it to the client because things will seem very very slow and sort of highlight and city, and so that's a much more kind of traditional game networking, stack, which we build very deeply into our sort of authoring tools in our content. So I can talk a little bit about like at a high level. How those things work. I actually think it's quite interesting. The way we do it. Well, there are number of different approaches to game. Working or to sort of this more fundamental problem, I suppose of synchronizing data across peers and one approach that I think is it's not exactly what we do. But I think it's very well. It's very similar, and it's also very easy to understand. And it's it's interesting as well as to think of to think of game or to think of the kind of propagation of state every frame in a game or some experience as if you think of it very functionally where every pier is sort of submitting actions to some stateless pure function reducer that actually implements the propagation of space. It's sort of reduces the problem of data synchronization to everyone having the same ordered list of these actions. And so first of all that makes the problem much simpler now, right? So everyone starts with the same state, right? This is a very common approach and something like starcraft or legal legends. Where like you start? You know, you find match and then everyone starts game. Right. So everyone starts with the same space. And then as long as everyone has everyone all the peers agree on the or. List of actions. Then everyone will arrive at the exact same kind of current state as long as the reducers are actually, pure and are deterministic, right. So that's kind of the high level approach, and they're a bunch of their bunch of additions that you need to make on top of that one thing is that typically speaking it's hard to get determine his them in games, especially if you're doing something like physics where just the floating point operations itself will lose you determine ISM, and then that can actually grow without bound relatively quickly. And so you need to have some kind of direct state synchronization for those pieces of data that are likely to be operated on a non deterministic way. If that makes sense so every once in a while, you send an update from like, some concept of master someone who has a thorny on that piece of data to all the peers to accept the story of the world that they're non deterministic compute has done on the state, and that that master in your setup is in the cloud, or do you have some kind? Like mesh networking or bluetooth setup. Or is it just a centralized master in the cloud for us right now. It's typically on the cloud. There are as you as you pointed out, there are approaches where it could be kind of like a peer to peer inactivity, where they're sort of one master, which is which is one of the piers, and it doesn't really realize that it's the master. But there's some issues with respect to cheating there or like one of the other upsides of having like an authoritative server, that's adjudicating these functions essentially as that you have control over like someone can maybe cheat locally. So like their local client thinks that they like winning. But the source of truth is like rejecting it for whatever reason. So we we have a massive the cloud. The idea of persistence, you want people to be able to place objects in augmented reality, and then have other people walk up to those objects at a later date, perhaps interact with them. Why is persistence? A hard problem persistence comes down. So the problem of persistence is part of the sort of mapping or computer vision side of the world. It's a hard problem for a number of reasons first because the environment changes often, and so, you know, for example, Android has the concept of cloud anchors. This is like an AR core feature where you can sort of take a representation of some space. Then a our core will host it in the cloud and someone else can localize against it. So now, you're on the same corner system, and those will only lasts for I think it's twenty four hours and part of the reason that that is a requirement is that the approach they've taken there is very sort of local in scope, so you kind of make an anchor as it's called on some areas a plane or or wall, or whatever it is. And that might change right. You come back twenty four hours later in my look, totally different. And now the other peer isn't going to be able to find it really and so- environments change kind of not just in terms. Actual items or whatever it is moving around. But also in terms of say like time of day will make the lighting change a lot or the seasons could change or whatever it is or could be darker could be light. And so in order to really solve the problem of persistence. You need to have a representation of space that is well first of all persistent so before in Africa, for example, before a our world maps where thing which is a relatively recent addition to the to the there was no concept of persistence in the first place, so arc it would run session a session and wants the sessions over then all of the sort of built up understanding of the spaces is essentially lost. Now, you can save a thing called air world map, which is very very useful. But it's kind of limited in scope, and basically because it's what comes out of the session that has running on the device and their limitations to what can be done on a device. And so that's kind of a long way of how how do we solve persistence is that we build much kind of high. Higher fidelity and more full representations of some space, and we do that by reconciling session date or censor data from a number of different devices into one consistent representation of the space that is more resilient to these changes is constantly updated. As people come back to the space and view, the content and that kind of lets us get around these issues of things changing or different times of day or sort of limitation than scope because fundamentally the system is the system is built to reconcile across multiple different kind of streams of sensor data, and that kind of captures a bunch of different conditions naturally. So one idea here is that if you have people who are messing around with augmented reality applications, they're walking around there, essentially waving their camera over the real world. You're picking up a location aware visualizations of the world location aware. Really aware visions of the world, and you can stitch these together we had done a few shows with map Larry that is doing something kind of similar where the people who are essentially crowd sourcing all of these smartphone images, and because they're positionally aware they can map Larry in the cloud can stitch all these together, and they can get basically a vision of the physical world who stitched together from these different phones. And then you can do all kinds of interesting things with that. Like, you can you can do do object segmentation. So that you can you can actually classify the objects that are in the real world. But let's let's talk a little bit about the stitching together process. So so people are taking these videos with their phone or they're just taking these images with their phone. And then these are getting passed to you in the cloud, and then you're getting a real time or you're getting a positionally aware mapping of the physical world. Is that what you're doing? Yeah. That's right. So it's the mapping portion is not kind of designed to necessarily be real time the localization and tracking portion is and so one way to think of it. So consider consider the fall in case. So you have a space say the MoMA map. So maybe we mapped, and maybe you mapped it when you set up the experience, whatever it is. Now, you have another kind of consumer coming into the space and tracking themselves in the space, or ultimately trying to view, this experiences hair content. So what's what's happening? There is that the this user is sending sensor data to our back end. And in real time. Our back end is reconciling that censor data against the three D representation of the space that we have at the time now as synchronous ly- the stream of sensor data that is coming in from that person is being stored. Elsewhere and later will will go into a cue to update the map. Up and keep it sort of up to date or more full or many times, it'll increase the spatial extent. Or or whatever it is. So the mapping portion the updating portion we would call it internally we call it the merging portion, that's that's happening. A synchronous Lii in order to sort of the goal of that as essentially keep the map or the space up-to-date and big the tracking portion, which is what you need to do when you actually want to view the content is having real time in the key criteria. The key kind of metric there will be latency. So tell me about that problem of stitching together images or videos to make a map of the real world. How the last I remember about? Well, just tell me about what's the state of the art in terms of the research or are are there. Well defined algorithms for doing that. Or you kind of at the cutting edge. Like, how hard of a problem is that today there are well defined? I would call them approaches or techniques. I mean algorithms fair enough there. Well-defined mature algorithms for what's called in. What would be called in the computer vision community structure from motion or reconstruction? The those would be used interchangeably and those typically take as input an unordered set of images. That's like the classical problem statement, given an unordered set of images oftentimes, the the techniques would be motivated by a desire to sort of take community photo collections from safe flicker or whatever and use those. So given an unordered set of images build the representation of of the three D space that sort of the classical problem statement, we have a slightly different problem statement, which is given a set of kind of sessions from devices build that three D representation of space. So the difference. There is well two things. One is we have video. So we have some temporal consistency that we can rely on which typically speaking SF, I'm can't and the second is that we have much more sensor data than just images we have gyroscope. We have accelerometer we have GPS. Magnetometer, and we also have a arcade estimates or a Arcor estimates. Which to from the perspective of our back end are just another probabilistic measurement coming from some sensor. So we have basically more data. And so our approach is something like a merging of SM techniques and slam techniques which typically do have that kind of sensor data to kind of get the best of both worlds in a sense. So how does it work? I mentioned earlier that there's really a very small part of it, which is computer vision. And really, the only computer vision part is detecting and sort of representing feature points in images. So you you take an image. You run a feature extractor which nowadays would often be deep learning. This is like one of the places that deep learning can really help them or reconstruction. Although the recent I mean, it's not interestingly enough, it's not a slam dunk. You know, it's not conclusive that deep learning is actually better for this. Right. Now. But I think it probably will be sooner or later. But so you take an image you extract, a bunch of features. You take a you use sort of matched those features against a bunch of other images or features that you've extracted from other images. And now, you're kind of in a non linear optimization geometric estimation world, there's really no more computer vision to happen. So now the process is an iterative one where you you sort of initialized the system with some some of the images you triangulate landmark so a landmark would be considered kind of like a point in space. So the idea is that every feature that you extracted from one of these images. So what does that feature? It's light emanating from some surface in space and kind of hitting the camera at that picks location. And so if you have to such detections of that surface, and there's enough baseline between the images in which they were observed you can try late where that point is in space. Right. So that's one of the key. They're kind of like. Like, I would say three maybe core sort of building blocks of reconstruction one is the feature extraction as I described one is trying to and the triangulation is just I mean, it's just typical triangulation where you have to kind of bearing vectors corresponding to these feature points that you've detected and you find where they match and space. So now, you have some some idea of where that surface was that generated the light that was that feature extraction that you found and then given that you can estimate where another image that saw that point you actually need like four or five of them. But you can estimate where another image was in space because it saw that point in a specific orientation on the on the image. And then you kind of this over and over and over kind of re-assimilating more images than retry angling, more landmarks, many more images until you've covered as much as you can. So it's a pretty it's a pretty amazing thing that these like, very, you know, basically, I just mentioned three sort of building blocks. One is. Feature extraction. One is triangulation and one is this. It would be called absolute pose estimation. Where you given the fact that you see certain like landmarks in space in a certain way on your image. This is where the image must be. That's the problem that that's to solve you can just kind of interest this over and over and over and recover. Very full three representation of space. There's one thing that I didn't mention there, which is what would be called bundle adjustment, which is at various points along this process. You kind of formulate this very big non their opposition problem and you solve in that'd be called bundle adjustment. And that problem is essentially if if you hypothesize that this image Saad this point at this location on the image. So you have a three point, and you have a to d picks location on the image where your computer vision system, essentially has told you that I observed that three point when you actually reproduced that three point into the images plane, given your current estimate of where? The images it won't match up perfectly. Right. It'll be a little bit off. And so there's a cost there. That'd be called like the reproduction air. And what you're trying to do is you're trying to minimize the sum of all those costs. So what I just described? There would probably be called classical incremental reconstruction. Now, what we have is a bunch of more sensor data gyroscope or GPS as I described. So the question is in that story, how can you integrate this new sensor data and the key kind of the key change? They're the key thing there is to formulate. So that big non linear optimization that. I just described is called bundle adjustment in the computer vision community, you can interpret all of those reproduction airs that I just mentioned as something like probabilistic measurements. So they're Gosse in measurement errors and now that bundle adjustment. Problem is really a special case of a more general probabilistic graphical model called the factor graph where you have a bunch of different measurements. That are that from which you derive a bunch of different errors that. Are basically the galaxy and like measurement error of like if the real thing is at this location, and I measured it at this location, and my measurement has this variance. Here's how much air that is. And so now, you have a principled way to add new kinds of those sorts of measurement errors. And now, you have a principle way to add new sensor, data, gyroscope, accelerometer, etc. Into this big non the optimization problem and solve it much better. So that's kind of what we do. Open shift is a coup Brunetti platform from red hat open shift takes the coober Netease container orchestration system and adds features. That let you build software. More quickly open shift includes service discovery CIC de built in monitoring and health management and scale ability with open shift you can avoid being locked into any of the particular large cloud providers. You can move your workloads easily between public and private cloud infrastructure as well as your own on Prem hardware, open shift from red hat gives you coober Netease without the complication security, log management container networking configuration management. You can focus on your application instead of complex coober netties issues. Open shift is open source technology built to enable everyone to. Launch their big ideas. Whether you're an engineer and a large enterprise or developer getting your start up off the ground. You can check out open shift from red hat by going to software engineering daily dot com slash red hat. That's software engineering daily dot com slash red hat. I remember the earliest shows I did about coober Netease and trying to understand its potential and what it was four. And I remember people saying that this is a platform for building platforms. So it's coober Netease was not meant to be used from raw coober Netease to have a platform as a service. It was meant as a lower level infrastructure piece to build platforms as a service on top of which is why open shift came into manifestation. So you can check it out by going to software engineering daily dot com slash red hat. And find out about open shift. It's worth reiterating. Here why is it important to have a map of the physical world that all of your users can agree on? Why is that important? Why is mapping the real world? So core to building an augmented reality world on top of that real world. Yes. So what you just mentioned that the end. There is exactly why you you want to align the virtual content on top of the real world. And if you want to support that kind of functionality you need to be you need to have some reference to which you can place virtual content and have that reference be fundamentally linked to the real world. And so if we don't agree on the coordinate system of the real world, or like where certain say building is in space than when I place content where I think that building is maybe for me, it's at ten ten ten or whatever. If in your corner space, you're corner spaces sort of translated and rotated. So you think it's like one two three. Then even though I wanted to put it at the building it's gonna show up in some random place for you. And the only way we can obviate. This problem is if we all agree that the buildings that ten ten ten this other thing is that five five five. And so if I put some virtual content at some location like that is that is not just some arbitrary coordinate system in some random three space. That's relative to where we agree the origin is which is some maybe street corner. Whatever it is or an office or a house or whatever it is. So given that algorithm mic description that you gave there's work to be done in implementing that and actually putting this into practice. Both putting it in the cloud building some data pipeline around doing all that ingesting all of the image data and stitching it together. Using all of those different algorithms you. -scribed tell me about the data pipeline the from ingest to to to processing that that mapping. Yes. So scaling scaling this. Algorithm is no easy task. And they're bunch of reasons for that one is the just quantity of the data that you're working with which is kind of what you're describing here. There are other problems. Also, like the way I described that problem is we'll have squared growth of complexity because you have to match these features across different images. Right. So as that number of images grows a lot like the number of matches. You would have to compete in a sense grows very quickly. So you need to that's just to say that there are sort of infrastructure scale ability challenges that we have to solve. But they're also algorithms scale ability challenges that we have to solve so US about the data pipeline. So we kind of ingest data from from phones in stream they're stored as kind of frame wise. In S three which is kind of like the source of truth of the of the data. And then essentially what what goes through the sort of compute pipeline broadly. Speaking are pointers to those kind of blobs, and then the important the important piece with respect to scale ability of of the algorithm is to kind of at all times break up the algorithm into into meaningful. But smaller chunks, and then have some reconciliation stage at the end or maybe not necessarily at the end. But in some sort of tree like structure, which would be a more traditional approach. So as the data goes through the pipeline, it's sort of clustered and split by way of our current estimates of the positions or like, the relative kind of structure of the data. And then those are those estimates are kind of constantly being updated by the by the pipeline itself. And so there's a sort of iterative approach there. If I recall if as if these problems weren't enough when I was talking to map. Airy it sounded like if you if you don't pay attention to to the costs or to like, how your data growth is going your costs can get completely out of control because you just have so much processing you're doing. Do. You have some is are there some bounds around like the context in which you're trying to solve this problem? Do you have like a testing ground or how are you constraining? The problem today before you know, before you're anywhere close to kind of launching it and getting to profitability. Yes. So as a very true point is that these workloads are very compute heavy and most things that run at the scale that we would hope to run at are much less compute heavy there much kind of more bend with heavy or whatever it is. But these are very very compute heavy in that takes it costs money to get CPU's. So that's a very fundamental part of the system that we think about. And a lot of the kind of algorithm. The challenges that I was mentioning around making sure the for example, that it doesn't grow squared which is obviously not going to not going to work are around sort of utilizing approximations where appropriate to bring down the amount of compute. We have to do to arrive at kind of very very close to the same solution, or or in many cases, sometimes it can be better, depending on depending on some properties of the data. But so we try to we try to limit the scope in an algorithm accents, which is the say like implement and design algorithms that fundamentally don't grow as kind of severely as the class the naive way would do. And the other thing is that as we're kind of in development now nowadays in sort of as we develop this these systems, we kind of focus on areas around the office, which is partly just for convenience. But also, partly the kind of limit the scope and kind of provide ourselves with a bit of a San. Box test this stuff out. And you know, I mentioned doing the preview at the MoMA. That was a great example. Because one thing is that we believed that a our experiences should generally speaking serve to bring out the venue in which they're in. So that's one of the real powers of AR is that it's in the real world. And so the MoMA being kind of like, a very interesting venue in the first place is in my opinion, a great place for a are. But the other thing was the moon was just around the street from our office at the time. So it's very convenient for us. And we need to do some of those things while we develop to sort of provide ourselves that sandbox to develop these systems, many of the people that you've hired I think including yourself, it seems like you were impacted by science fiction about augmented reality. What is it about those science fiction stories that are so compelling? Yeah. That's that's that's very true. So one of the big inspirations for the company, actually. When my co founder, and I were thinking about about the idea is is actually a book called rainbow's end by Verner veggie, which is a science fiction book, which is about sort of a future where a ours. Ubiquitous this kind of where the name comes from also this concept, ubiquitous AR, and everyone is sort of wearing or like has wearables where they kind of see this a our world overlaid on top of the real world that was a big sort of inspiration. So why is science fiction such a big thing? Well, I think that a lot of science fiction books and Verner vincis a great example. They're sort of a lot of a lot of it is about world building. So like like kind of constructing this science fiction world in which a lot of things are different or there's new technology or whatever it is. And I think oftentimes it's not necessarily about exactly how that world manifest itself in the story. But it's about the kind of promise of that world, or like what that world could allow in general, and I think. People want to build that because they have their own ideas of what could we do with such technology as you're pushing the bounds of what is possible today in a are. Are there any limitations that you're running up against where you're starting to think? Oh, man, maybe we need maybe this area of technology still needs to get a little bit better before we can realize our dreams. Are there any bottlenecks, you're sensing? Well, so there are two answers to the I think I think with respect to to what we consider kind of the core technology that would support the kinds of content that we wanna build now. And that we think are engaging enough in to to sort of support the kinds of traction that we want and the kinds of vision that we want to deploy I think in that regime, it the technology is mature enough. I think we're pretty confident in the current approaches that we're taking the academia's taking. And we feel pretty confident that those things will be delivered in a reliable way and inaccurate way it cetera. I think that if you look at if you think about the growth of this company as as we sort of succeed and grow and try to add new more and more novel features what that looks like as more and more understanding of space, and so there's a bunch of features or content. You can imagine that you could create if you had a much deeper understanding of space, and I think in that regime there are some bottlenecks or let's say like invention that needs to get done to really like solidly deliver on some of those promises or some of those features. I don't think those are necessary by any means to sort of deliver the vision that we want to deliver on kind of initially the core vision, let's say, but a lot of that is around the integration of low in my opinion. It will be solved by more and more integration of deep learning into the three D arena, which is not really happened to deeply. I mean recently. There's some really interesting approaches coming out of place, like deep mind for some of these ideas. But I think to really deliver on some of the much more Ford facing like long-term features or functionality that we want to provide especially around like really deeply understanding spaces. I think there might be some kind of fundamental invention that needs to happen where does deep learning fit into three d what three D modeling three d imagery. What are you talking about there? I'm talking about understanding three d space. So right now, the common uses of deep learning where it really shines and has sort of conclusively come out as like the the best approach would be kind of tutti images. So you pass a tutti image or list of duty, images and video cases? And the algorithm is looking spatially in the image. So tutti on the image plane, and then in some of these video based approaches it'd be temporarily as well. So it's looking temporarily across across images, there's not that. Many approaches yet on kind of giving deep learning so in that in those cases, the input to the algorithm is either an image, or let's say list of them an ordered list of images, there's not they're not that many techniques out yet or approaches that have really been proven out yet where the input is essentially what would be an unordered set of images where you know, their positions in space. So you have six hundred freedom pose understanding of each image in space, and that would allow the algorithm to do things like triangulation or or automated learn about the geometry like Jim metric concepts and then use those in it's sort of understanding of its operation and produce some prediction, or whatever it is. And so I think that that's actually a very very hard problem because what it comes down to how do you represent the geometric structure of an input to a network, which as I mentioned, there are some approaches that are kind of not very scalable because they build like these big sort of. Sweet volumes. And like the the memory usage is just insane. Or there's some approaches they're trying to do this in a more principled way. That are kind of new and quite promising. I would I would say, but it's not proven yet. If that makes sense. Yeah. So in terms of hardware, how does what you're working on? Well, I guess in terms of hardware and software. How does interminable where you're working on compared to what you believe to be in practice at places like magically or the hall O lens? How did the approaches differ? Well, I think one of the main ways they differ is in well in the problem statement, in many cases, so hardware companies or hod hardware platforms. Generally, speaking are trying to solve on device challenges so build a map or track or build a mesh or build a map or whatever. The problem may be on device in real time and use it as like constant feedback for the user as they're doing some experience. This is also. Oh, what the case do for what it's worth. And we are more in the sort of a synchronous cloud setting where what we wanna do is kind of reconcile a bunch of different device sessions into one consolidated representation of the space. And so it's it's a pretty fundamentally different problem statement. I would say like these devices, the the way the algorithms are set up and the way the the way the let's paradigm czar is that they'll essentially allocate every session a coordinate system that is origin where they opened up that or the device and then everything's relative to that coordinate system for us. It's it's different for us. The corner system is is the world is like GPS like there's some true coordinate system. Right. The world is on a real corner system. And we're trying to sort of ultimately understand that shared Cornyn system. Whereas the device SEK's typically speaking are trying to understand a local coordinate system. I mean, there's. Clarity's? Of course. Right. That's a big difference. So final question how long until the augmented reality glasses become a mainstream device or repeal. They're ready to use. And what are the bottle next to that happening? Well, first of all I would love for the come sooner rather than later because I'm very excited about that. I think that a are glasses are are not quite there yet. I don't I would predict something like three or five years. It's a bit of a shot in the dark for me. That's what I've heard from other people too. Yeah. Yeah. But to be fair that's just like a pretty safe thing to say. Sure. So what are the bottlenecks? Well, compute is a big issue because to support a are on the glasses as a mentioning some relatively powerful compute to power these algorithms, and you don't want to put them on the glasses itself because the bulky, and especially if like heats up then it's on your face when is heating up. So I would say form factor which is related to computers. A big issue. I also think that the displays are kind of a key technical piece that doesn't seem to be fully solved. I'm sure there are other bottlenecks as well. Especially around say battery. I mean, I think the hardware challenges is very significant still. And then on the software side. Well, you need you need to an image stream. That's coming from the glasses. You got to put a camera up there. I think it's primarily hardware. Okay. Well, it's been great talking to you walk it, and I'm really excited about what you're building. You are clearly doing something you're passionate about and you have the domain expertise to tackle that problem. So best of luck. Thank you. Thanks for having me. HP? One view is a foundation for building a software defined data center. HP one view integrates compute storage and networking resources across your data center and leverage is a unified API to enable IT to manage infrastructure as code deploy infrastructure faster, simplify life cycle maintenance for your servers. Give IT the ability to deliver infrastructure to developers as a service like the public cloud. Go to software engineering daily dot com slash HP to learn about how HP one view can improve your infrastructure operations HP. One view has easy integrations with Tara form. Coober Netease, Docker and more than thirty other infrastructure management tools. HP one view was recently named as CR ends enterprise software product of the year to learn more about how HP one view. 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Working at MoMA: How Does a Curator Do Her Job?

Slate's Working

1:14:19 hr | 1 year ago

Working at MoMA: How Does a Curator Do Her Job?

"You're listening to working the show about what people do all day. I'm your host, Jordan Weisman. And I hope you enjoyed our bonus thanksgiving up sewed about holy Postles soup kitchen on Wednesday. But today we're getting back to our regularly scheduled programing with episode two of our series about the museum of modern art in New York City this week, you're going to meet Sarah, my Stor a curator and moments photography department. We had a pretty wide ranging discussion about picking new works the museum's collection coming up with 'exhibition ideas. The nuances of writing wall, text and just all sorts of other good stuff. But before letting the interview role I just want to explain head of time who I'm talking about. When I ask Sarah about the museum's trustees excuse by don't now, I think there's a chance some people might get a little confused at that point in the interview. Trustees are the people who sit on a museum board, and in general, they tend to be wealthy donors, and as you're going to learn one of curator's, many, many jobs is figuring out how to convince and control. These while Vokes into seeing the value of different works of art. I hope you enjoy. What's your name? And what do you do name is Sarah, my Stor, and I'm a curator in the department of photography here at MoMA? I think when you ask someone to list off jobs that amused. Siham curator's, probably the first one that comes to mind. But as I down kind of thought about this. I really have no idea what a curator actually does like I've been going to museums my whole life. I even worked in a museum briefly as doing basically checklists when I was in college. But somehow, I have no concept. Checklist. Good place to start this job, actually entails. So how how would you just kind of you know, in an elevator? Summarize like what kind of stuff you do? So I'd say as a museum curator, and there are other people who call themselves curator's of like food halls and stores and things like that. But a real thank you. So as a museum curator, I would say there are three large buckets that you could use to put what I do every day into I work on acquisitions, so that's acquiring works for the museum collection. I work on exhibitions and publications drawn from the collection, and and other places too. And then the third part is just sort of miscellany, maybe meaning research initiatives connected to the collection. Conservation efforts to care for the collection thinking about how it's. Image or stored or other things so sort of the third one is not a small bucket, but it's the grab bag. It's the grab bag we need a grappa. So over those three which takes up the most of your time, probably the grab bag, but it's no it's a fair. It's a pretty equal division. In other words, acquisitions take a lot of time both in terms of strategizing about what should you be acquiring? And then once you think of what you should be acquiring. It's a question of finding it negotiating for things like that how you're gonna pay for it. How are you going to care for it? Once it gets here. How are you going to get it here in the first place and then exhibitions publications take an enormous amount of time. And sometimes that's writing. Sometimes that's thinking about sequencing working with designers for books, and then the grab bag is sort of everything else, and that's pretty substantial what in your inbox, especially at a place. Like, mama. You have your fortunate that people care about what you think. And so that means that you're inboxes pretty full on a pretty regular basis. So let's start with acquisitions, okay? How do you decide that? There's a piece of art you want, and how do you go about getting it? Well, so we spend a lot of time establishing what we call strategic priorities, and what that means is we look at the collection. And this is my whole department. Not just me we look at the collection, and we say where are strengths where our weaknesses, and then what do we want to prioritize like what are we not have that we really want to have to tell the story of photography writ large. So sometimes those priorities, you just know them. You studied them you, you know, you certainly know certain chapter in art history is under represented in the collection. And sometimes it can be things like travel helps you discover something that you're like, wow. Wow. I never knew that existed. And now that I know it does I have to figure out a way to expand the history to write that into it. And so I've been fortunate to travel to South America, Fairmount. And I remember there's a group called the photo cynic club bandit aunt, which was like the money photo cynic club based in south Paulo. And at first I knew about one figure from it. And then I learned another, and then I learned there was a woman, and then and then all the sudden I was like, wow, this is a whole universe that just wasn't in any of the textbooks that I knew of you said you're trying to tell the story of Taga free at moment. What story is the department try because like you can't tell the entire is is the point to tell the entire story in the collection. Or what do you will? Maybe that maybe the word thus story. Maybe it's a problem of our article. I would say we try to tell stories in the multiple, and the, you know, those stories. As can have you want those stories to change to be responsive to the current moment. You want those stories to also be responsive to the whole history. And so partly what I love about photography is that it's not just the history of works that were meant to be framed and hang on museums or galleries, it's like photography is so messy and a morpheus and omnipresent that. In fact, what I love is that we collect snapshots, and we collect amateur work, and we collect scientific work in photojournalism, and fashion, and you know, when you're doing all of those things together, you're being true to some sense of what photography has been and maybe more because I guess, you know, at the start if otographer it wasn't even really considered art. It was considered science. It was and then you sort of became a novelty in those this Victorian Votto, and a collectible and keepsake, and and it was. The people were deaf to its artistic potential, and certainly some of the best ones that you have from the nineteenth century have an exquisite sense of composition or scale or texture. But but you're right. When I was a I was trying to think of I I wrote a chapter recently about nineteenth century American photography. And we ended up. I ended up calling it not necessarily art because it was as if art was kind of beside the point. And it was everything else that was making it so interesting does that make your job figuring out what to collect a little bit more difficult because it's not like you're just looking for great masters or under pre created masters. Yeah. A lot of what we look at. Maybe we don't even know who made it or maybe it doesn't even matter who made it. And so it doesn't I don't know if it makes my job more difficult per se, but it certainly changes the rules. Like, I don't think there are a lot of painting curator's at the museum who are acquiring on. Authored work. Working is brought to you by American Express. No matter what career path you choose. If you run a business. Funding is essential funding solutions for American Express can help with vendor payment financing American Express. Please your vendors and you pay American Express back up to ninety days later with a low fixed. They'll hope keep your career interesting. The powerful backing of American Express don't do business without it. Terms. Apply for details. Visit American Express dot com slash business. Where are you finding work? I guess I'm wondering because you know, you said you're sometimes I mean, you're you're looking for all these different types of photos, and some that might be where where are you going to to find stuff that you might acquire? So we're lucky people bring things to us and we travel a fair amount. And when you travel. Yeah. Brazil or anywhere. I was in Paris last week, and you travel in order to see things that don't come to you that you feel that you should be attentive to. But I know one of my favorite things is to go. There's a snapshot collector downtown, and he scours EBay and the flea markets, and he finds all these incredible snapshots. And then he makes it so easy for me. Because when he finds something really great he says come on down and check this out. And then I only have to go so far as to get on a subway. So that's not so hard. But does he like run a store is? He's he's an incredibly passionate and now seasoned collector who but is really focuses on snapshots. You've got like a secret weapon. A secret anonymous weapon. But you'd have to murder, right? Like, I wouldn't do that. But I would say actually what's great about him. Is that also if any other photography curator is listening to this all of them will know his name because he's very generous to all dementia, museums not just moma's. So so is that is that thing that a lot of photo carriers. Do kind of go looking around the internet firm aeges onto to is that part of it or well, I don't really look on the internet for things to acquire. Because it points to sort of one of the most fundamental things that I think people need to understand about photography, which is that a photographic image. Something that lives on your phone or on your computer screen or projected on wall. That's an image. Whereas photograph is an object. It has a scale materiality Assad and all of those things how big it is. How small it is what kind of paper it's printed on what are the stamps and the signatures all of those things tell you something about it. So if you think of a photograph as an object. It's harder to do it. It's harder. To know. What you're looking at when you're looking online that's important when you're collecting for historical purposes, I would say even contemporary purposes, you know, if we work in a museum, so we put things on view, and you're not collecting an idea, you're collecting an object. So it matters. What that object is it doesn't mean that you would discriminate against it. Because it's little or because it was made in Russia after the revolution is on super thin paper, or because it was in the New York Times picture, Morgan, it has tears and stamps and creases on it. So those flaws are that life that's evident in the object. Don't make it less interesting. But it means it matters that you actually see it. I know MoMA does collect pieces of digital design digital art do not collect any digital photos or you do or how does that work for you? We do collect digital things. And it's interesting to see now in the twenty first century like. Sometimes you're collecting digital thing as a record or an artifact or a way of extending the life of something that you know in a different medium. But sometimes also a work might be meant by an artist or maker to live digitally. And so when that's the case, then it still has a matter of like, how is this meant to live. So a digital image still or maybe think of it at an easier example for photography's, let's say a slide a slide still has a materiality. And even if you digitize that slide and you show that projected image. They're still something that you're collecting. And there are you know, really interesting artists who are making things that are digital. But they they still care how you encounter it or they think about that. Yeah. And so so if there is something that is just meant to be seen our screen. That's how you collected printed out, you know, size on a printer. However, then you. It that way. But it's part of you sort of hope that it matters to the maker. So Stephen shore in his retrospective. There were he's an incredible Instagram, and those pictures that he posts on Instagram are meant to be encountered in that way. And so we put ipads in the galleries to allow people to see those it you're not gonna print that out and put on I worry when it's like, oh, it doesn't matter. What scale it is what size, you know, what material takes like. Well, maybe it should once. You've decided you you want something you encounter that Brazilian photo. While traveling or you find that's nap shot. What do you do then? So we then we work on bringing it to the museum. Well, I should say before we work on bringing to the museum. Then I talked to my boss, and I say is this something we're interested in acquisition. Make sure he's on board. A formal like is there a form you fill out say blissfully, blissfully informal. No, it's just popping by his office. I mean, we talk about our priorities enough that if I'm bringing something to him. He we speak the same language, and I say, oh, I found this great opportunity. What do you think? So we we talk so much. It's quite informal at that stage. So if he gives it a green light. And usually, you know, it's a sign of nice department is like when you're enthusiastic about something that enthusiasm is mirrored by others. So once we say, okay, let's propose this for aquisitions. So one of the important things to know about a curator at least curator at MoMA is that we may propose something for acquisition, but it's not approved until the committee on photography approves it, and it won't go into the collection until the committee approves it. So we do a lot of steps in the interim to bring it to the museum to do research on it too. Presented at a meeting. But we don't actually officially acquire it until the committee approves it who's on that committee. Those are trustees collectors enthusiasts. We have. We have a great committee. It's about twenty five people, and they're tasked with the responsibility of approving all of our acquisitions, and so you have to kind of make a you have to come up with the case to them. Yes. So we we spend a lot of time thinking about how we're gonna make the case. And we write these little acquis. That's where it gets written. We right acquisition justifications, and but sometimes even bringing it here, you know, the import laws it's super important for the museum to bring things in properly. So that means that the value upon importation needs to match the insurance value and there's customs agents, and all this crazy crazy stuff business. Business and lots of people are, you know, I guess I'm sure this is true for all museums. But sometimes if someone from we, well, I don't wanna name too many names, but we sometimes acquire something from a country where let's say we haven't acquired something recently. And they're like, oh, no worries. I'll just bring it on the suitcase and drop it off. And you're like, no. He can't do traffic the photo who you know trafficking. So if that happens, we literally have to send it back, and then have it imported properly and that's happened before. Yeah. It sounds like mentally now we're we catch it before. So when anyone? Right. So now, especially if it's a new someone we haven't worked with before. We're like, okay, let's be super clear, and that seems like something that would be specific to photography in particularly because it's so easy to travel to vote was you're not gonna you're not gonna bring them o'day. And there's a great story of being wrapped around Elfriede bars. I'm Brenda, and what is this? This story. I've never heard it's not really my story to tell. But I'm I'm ninety also now, of course, we're I'm being on the record for those. But we somebody should fact check this. My understanding is that Alfred bar was in Russia and was trying to bring a Malevich's painting into the US. And that he literally wrapped it around his umbrella. And I'm pretty sure this is his white on white like the iconic. So you can unroll a canvas and bring it into the country. It's not that much bigger than a photograph. But. Those are the good, you know, those are the good old days bar was offered bar was the director of the museum the founding director of the museum. So it was within his, you know, if you wanted to bring it that way who's gonna tell him, no except for customs except for the United States government. Although I think certainly now even Glenn Lowry director. He would not bring a photograph. You bring a work of art to the museum rolled around and umbrella. Like, we we appreciate the doing it by the book is important. So when you're making this case to the committee are you doing like, you know, are are you getting up with a slide deck and making the presentation is this like your your pitch meeting like how does that work? So we have three acquisition meetings a year, and they're big deals. It's almost like we put on an exhibition three times a year. But in private spaces in the museum that nobody can see then we put it up one day, and we take down the next day, and we put up labels, and we frame things, and we put them on easels. And yes, we have. So all the works. Are there? That's really important to speak to that materiality. It's like it doesn't matter. If it's an idea it matters. What is it that we're actually acquiring? Although for an d sometimes that is an idea, but that's another story. So we get all this together. And then we sit down, and it's very formal, and we have nice snacks and Perrier and water. And we try to make the case for why. Each of these things is an essential addition to the museum collection, and whether it's a gift or purchase we need to say, why do we need this for the museum? And so you're doing three times a year. How many pieces will you be pitching at each one of those it varies, but it's usually over a hundred works per meeting now sometimes those might be twelve works by the same artists. So it's not quite as crazy as it seemed. That's just you just photography. Oh, well, and how many departments does him. There are six curatorial departments in the museum. They're all kind of pitching like that. Yeah. Where I mean, it painting and sculpture. Choirs fewer objects, but I- their budgets, a little higher than hers truth be told, but someone like a and d probably acquires about the same number of works that we do is the process any different when you're acquiring it worked from very famous artist. Like when you want a Richard avid, Don or Diana, RBIs versus those snapshots. You're talking about the process is the same. No matter what the nature of the work is sometimes with our committee. There's a level of base level of understanding. So they're you know, if we're proposing a Robert Frank photograph. Everybody knows who Robert Frank is. Everybody knows why it's important then it might become a case of like why this piece, but it's always a question of justification. You know, why why does the museum need this? I will say we're offered a really generous number of gifts that we declined because we think you know, what this isn't gonna live the most active life here that it could live. We have other examples by this artist that we. Think are more likely to go on the walls. So we we spent a fair amount of time really trying to say like what do we really need, and what do we want? And if something is going to live a better life somewhere else than we'll try to make sure that that happens the trustees play a big role in acquisitions, and I know that like for big ticket items often, they're play a very significant role. I guess do you ever find yourself having to lobby like individual trustees? There is that like a bit like kind of one on one type thing or is this. I mean, many of the most important acquisitions that I've for which I've been responsible absolutely have happened. Thanks to the generosity of one or a small handful of incredibly generous committee members or trustees. So let's say we want to acquire something. And I go to my boss, and I say, isn't this really great. You know, I think we should really have it for the collection. And he might say, I totally agree. But we don't have enough money for it. And so then he'll give me. A green light to go try to find that money for it. And if it's a trustee we make sure that we talked to our development office because they may be being asked for something else from someone else the museum if someone on our photo committee, and you know, I I call them. You can ask them the poor things. I call them a fair amount. And I say, hey, I've got this really exciting thing. You know, do you wanna come in? And take a look at some extent, you're trying to convince them to donate and say, hey, try to say, yeah. Would you please make it possible for this to be in the museum collection, and the small thing that we can offer in return is that their name would be on the wall able which seems they don't they don't do it for that. They they really do it. You know, because they think that whatever we're proposing. If we've persuaded them that it's important and unique. So their taste matters a lot for what a collection might look look like in the end so part of your role kind of trying to educate them or do you like try to talk to them and keep them abreast of what you're working on inbetween when you're actually trying to sell them on a specific. Absolutely. And also, we try to think of works that particular collectors might want to support. So, you know, you you develop a sense of what a committee members taste is. And then if you find something that you think is really great. And you're like, oh, they're really gonna love this either. It's a work by women artists. And this is someone who's always supported work by women artists or they really like nineteenth century things. And you hope that they like this nineteenth century thing. Also, probably helps when you're doing the like committee because then you can get them to lobby there there yet. The committee. You know, we they're there and the committee. So if something is fully funded, and we're presenting it to the committee. That's much different. Yeah. That makes it a little bit easier. Because where it's just makes it easier already funded. That's how often are you trying to poach a photo. You saw at another museum that happened. Never. Or is that? Well, we don't think of it as poach. To take out the guard. No, we we, you know, assure there are a lot of times when I'll walk through another museum, and I'll see something that you know, of Kali has acquired and I'll be like jealous jealous. But the nice thing is we I dunno these things tend to work out. You know, it's we do when there's a Perry photo is a photo fair and Paris that just happened. And it's when that happens, you certainly want to make sure that if there is a unique work that speaks to your acquisition priorities that you see it first and put it on reserve before colleagues and other museums do that, but there's a pretty good sense of collegiality in the field too. So, you know, every once in a while they'll be something where we want it. But if another museum gets it, it's like, well, at least it's well cared for their, you know, they'll love it to do you guys ever bid for things at auctions. It's. Rare. But it happens, and I occasionally I'm the one calling in the phone bid. And I find it honestly, the most nerve wracking part of my job because it's such a foreign universe. It really don't do it that often. But every once in a while something comes up and you're bidding, and you're listening in and we have great some of our committee members the people who approve our acquisitions they like coach me through it because they bid at auction all the time. So they like so you wanna be calm. You wanna wait until the bidding dies down. It's it's another universe is someone there like while you're on the phone chill chill. I could use that or I should like pills would have been helpful. But no the other thing is the auction houses their true pros. So when they know that you're a real novice, you know, it's about getting a good person on the other line who make sure that you really don't mess it up. But of course, you can't reveal to them like what you're ceiling is. So still nerve what you do they give you a ceiling, essentially, they say like you cannot. One hundred percent, there's a ceiling. So yes that actually to acquire something at auction. You have to get approval from the committee in advance to bid up to a certain amount. So even though that amount is confidential or known only to the curator's in the committee. No, I'm not allowed to just willy nilly go bidding for things at auction. But so typically, it sounds like, you know, you are finding things that are either and someone's private collection and your Cuaron in for the museum, or you're finding stuff that's not in a collection at all that sort of just floating out there in the other either. Well, it it's a lot of a lot of great photographs are with the families of the people who made them. So that's a great source of you know, I've met a lot of families in Brazil, for instance, who have the photographs that their other previous generations made and they've just been holding onto them because maybe they weren't worth that much or they didn't know what to do with them. So what's the? Reaction from family in. I mean are these people who live in Rio house Paul or I mean, it's a range. I would say sometimes you're talking to somebody and they've never heard of MoMA, and they couldn't care less. And they you know, it doesn't matter. But that so that's actually a little harder. I was gonna say what's the reaction? When you go to someone say, I'm from a museum in the United St. a large museum United States. And I want to look through your family photos to figure out if they're historically significant and maybe by them, well that sounds pretty daunting. We actually, you know, you try to be conscious of the fact that for those people who have heard of MoMA or no that museums exist, even if they don't know MoMA per se, although most of them do MoMA, you try not to go to them unless you have a pretty good sense that they know why would might be a good thing for a work by their in their family to come to the museum. So you're not, you know, and sometimes I'll go see work in Brazil where all say. This really ought to stay here. Like, this is a piece of your national heritage. It wouldn't even be right to bring it to the museum. You know? So I'm I'm really glad that the their private and public collections in Brazil that are taking care of the same material because we don't want to be taking things where they where they would live an active fertile life in their home country. You don't wanna be pillaging, right? Yeah. I feel we're talking about we've mentioned zone of times. Now, I just want to know a little bit more. Even though this isn't strictly. The nature it. He does tell me a little bit more about this kind of movement photography that you're research short super briefly. I there's a group called the photo Senate club ended on and they were a group of amateurs who are active in Brazil throughout a lot of the twentieth century. But I'm particularly interested in what they were doing between. Let's the mid nineteen forties to the mid nineteen sixties, and they made photographs that they then circulated internationally in these salons, and they salons went to Paris, and Japan and Paris and Tokyo, and they they're incredibly interesting works both in an experimental sense. And speaking to sort of a larger humanist moment, so these pictures circulated an incredible international network, and they were both humanist pictures of their family of the environment of their neighborhoods of their architecture. But they also had these great. Experimental impulses of using negative printing abstraction, and they basically are very well known, and they're very good scholars looking at this work in Brazil. But when I ask any of my other North American colleagues, it's like no one's ever heard of them the way, I was always taught photography in college back when a little time to vote on heard was that it was overwhelmingly Europe in American like west western like, not like Latin America. But it was it was it seemed to be where most of the focus was. So this would kind of counter that narrative, I think partly what the whole museum in the whole world right now, you realize that the narratives that you've been handed or kind of maybe grossly inadequate to think about the way our was made over the course of history. So how you go about filling out those gaps is super interesting, and whether one of the things I love about this photo Senate club group is that these amateurs were made. Making these incredibly experimental important works, but there were also pictures of like kittens and little babies with bows in their hair and cute girls smiling man something. Yeah. And you know, the the fact that these things can coexist side by side in the same group is super interesting to me as well. We've we've been taking pictures of kittens. And we'll always be taking pictures of kittens Cam. Yes. I mean now, I'm a dog person. Yes. Working is brought to you by American Express. No matter what career path you choose. If you run a business funding is central flexible funding solutions from American Express can help with vendor payment financing American Express. Please your vendors and you pay American Express back up to ninety days later with a low fixed. Hope keep your career interesting. The powerful backing of American Express don't do business without it. Terms. Apply for details. Visit American Express dot com slash business. Are you collecting these photos right now or researching suppose right now because you wanna put them in an exhibition or just because you want them in the collection to have on hand as sort of in storage. So we really try not to acquire things. Just so that they sit in storage. That's like a pretty core value. So yes, I do hope that with this and plan with this Brazilian material to do a book and an exhibition drawn from that that probably won't happen until twenty twenty at the earliest, so and that's in part because what I hope to bring to it is new scholarships sort of new perspectives on this work, and to make sure that for people who don't know it that they are given the apparatus to really understand it and understand its place where what's the work that you had to fight hardest or jump through the most hoops to acquire. So I think some of the MO. Most complicated. Acquisitions come from. When you're also trying to figure out precisely what it is that you want to be acquiring. And sometimes sketching that out you don't necessarily know what's the universe of work from which you can make a selection, and then if you can especially if there are language barriers and geographic barriers and things like that. You can have an acquisition that seems like a simple enough idea. But it's actually not always straightforward to say, this is the work by which this artist should be known in the museum's collection, human example. So let's say there's an artist named pas at oddities, and she's a fantastic photographer from Chile, and I traveled to Chile and saw these extrordinary photographs that she made there. But when you're there, you don't you're not just making an acquisition on the spot. You're you then you leave. Do you think? Okay. Those were mazing. But should I be I need to know everything else that might be available. So that I can make sure that what I saw is the right group. And then once you're sure that what she saw the right group you like, well, what does that actually mean? Can I afford it? How's it gonna get shipped? You know? So it can take months sometimes even years for an acquisition to come to fruition because of a whole bunch of slew of complications wrinkles. When once you've decided you want to choir something have you ever had to pitch it multiple times. I mean, almost everything I pitched multiple times rare. As the instance where you pitch something. I mean, it happens occasionally where you have just this incredible unique aquisition, and you pitch it to just the right person. And they say immediately. Yes, I, you know, I totally understand why you need that. And I wanna help. And when I say when you when I mean like to the committee or. That would be sort of fundraising to a committee member in advance that presentation to the committee, and you just go through. Okay. And does something ever go to the committee for like the vote, and it gets turned down and it comes back next year. Usually by the time it goes to the committee. We have sort of refined our argument enough, it, you know, it happens. And sometimes there's a lot of discussion. Why this why now why this print why not that Brent why this work not that? We're even why this artist, but usually that's part of like a healthy discussion and not so much a prelude to a rejection voca. So I guess this is four, but how often does something ever get rejected? Once you're at the or is it kind of it very rare by the time you get to the committee. You know, it can aspire a lot of fiery discussion, but actual permanent. Final rejection is is not that common. You've done fact three very uncommon. You've done. Replanning we try we try, you know, it's controversial. We've probably even talked to some of them in advance of the meeting to say, what are your thoughts about this? So this kind of Mitch McConnell's. It doesn't get a floor vote. Votes for it and help us. One time you'll ever be compared to which. That's that's that's interesting now, though is there a piece that. Yeah. Is there like one that got away piece that you've like I mean, they're finding after? Yeah. They're they're actually there are a lot. I feel like if you don't care enough about the things that you're seeing that if they go somewhere else, you're you feel ambivalent about it. Then you're probably not that good at your job. So, you know, whether it's something you see in a fair that there was this strawberry. Japanese postwar work that I saw in Paris last week that I would have done anything for it. And it wasn't available. And it's unique. And I I don't know who has it. But I'm keeping my eye out for it. And when I see it all always think that a little a little bit. But if it doesn't hurt I mean, it's a good rule of thumb, you know, when you're thinking of an acquisition, if if you think, oh, I wouldn't mind if the you know, Guggenheim or the. Whitney or the met had that on their walls and not us, then it's probably not worth pursuing. Whereas if you think oh, my gosh, every time I see that on the walls of another museum. I'm going to have a little piece of my heart taken out, then that's a good sign that you should try harder than it's worth it. That's worth making the pitch. So that brings us to the second bucket, which is exhibition. How do you start even you know, conceiving one? How do you? How do you get the idea for one? So exhibitions can come from really anything. Sometimes your fitting a particular need like the the museum will say, okay, we have this space in twenty twenty. We'd like to hear proposals from a mid, you know, from twenty modernist proposals. And so you'll think to yourself. Well, what hasn't been done what would be timely or important? And usually I think a lot of the more interesting ideas, come out of a really great work of art. You're excited to share. And see you think ok I wanna build a story around this what other voices what other works of art. Do. I wanna bring into it. You you try to get your idea clear enough that you then go to the we have what we call an exhibition committee, and that's full curator's from all departments and a few senior administrators, but like no one from marketing or development, no trustees. So it's really a wonderfully pure exchange of ideas between colleagues, and if you can convince your colleagues in the exhibition committee idea that your ideas worth doing than than that's good. And then it becomes scheduled. And then you really get to work on it. It sounds like you guys try to maintain kind of the equivalent journalism of like, a, you know, a iron or iron curtain wall between business, and edit sort of the idea you strive for I hear, you know, I talk. To a lot of colleagues at other museums who have to answer to focus groups and her put pressure on to sort of do exhibitions that speak to audience and one of the great things about working here is that a lot of our best ideas, the trustees and Glenn Lowry director. They really think it's the ideas that define who we are not necessarily the specific marketability of given project. And so that means that we do many exhibitions that don't necessarily. I mean, I can't say I've done a lot of oh, maybe any blockbusters people talk a lot because people talk a lot about. Now. Museums are dominated by blockbusters that is that. I mean, I think if you looked at moments program, usually we try to have an anchor exhibition one that we think will have broader appeal or interest or connection, but they're so so much of what we do from collection gallery. Installations to mid scale shows to that really. We have zero or close to zero commercial appeal and are more answering to you know, why do we look at our 'these days. How could we look at it differently? Well, how many how many exhibitions does MoMA have going at a time roughly the of and air all right now, we're in a period of construction. So it's a little bit constrained, but we have multiple spaces at multiple scales from individual galleries, and one of the things that I think I really love about the way, we install the collection. Now is that if you think of each gallery as its own mini exhibition those can be removed and inserted almost independent of what's around them. And so what that means our, you know, our poor frame shop our poor graphics department. What that means is that, you know, all of those really are little exhibitions, and they are all changing all the time. And that's you know, we're not gonna take starry night off view. But we are going to try to make the experience of coming into the galleries afresh one either. For people who live in New York and come here all the time. And so it gives us some flexibility to for scale for what you wanna do. You don't have to propose something it's going to be an entire floor. Yeah. You know, especially I think is a photo Curators. I like working in that sort of mid scale. I think it's super exciting to think about what's the tightest way. You could make this argument. How do you use the collection to expand idea without necessarily worrying about loans because the collection is pretty extrordinary? And so getting to use it and think about how it's displayed is like a thrill. So I want to jump off into kind of a detour for second. Because I again about to ask you about how you go about researching exponentially achieve approval, but what's your background? How did you end up a curator? I you know, what is what was your out fairly unusual background as a curator and that I came to photography from my middle school years as a practice. And it was only when I was in college that I decided, you know, this darker, isn't, you know, I don't think I wanna spend college in a dank basement. And so the darker did put on like the clash and just like work on developed like rinsing, the film and everything. So my high school darkroom was my favorite place to be and I spent every Saturday in high school in the dark room with three friends, and we lo I loved the chemicals. I loved the dark, and this is just. Great vinegar for people who've never been in a dark room because you know, millennials like, the it's very vinegary smell permeates the whole place, you know, and you have to like roll your film. Just right. And then you have to get your exposure. And you have to go back and forth between the dark and the light. And anyway, so I loved being in a dark room. But I guess I got to college. And I was like, I don't know. Maybe this isn't right. I had an internship at the Whitney, and there were two people in my college who were older than I was who really were like, you don't want to you know. I mean, truthfully. I was a terrible photographer when it all comes down to it. And they helped me see will you know, you could study photography as a branch of art history instead of making bad photographs, and that seemed pretty promising path. So then I became an art history. Major and I was hired right out of college to work here at MoMA oca-. And so you so you had this this academic focus and the ended up at the museum you kind of worked up sent. So a mask. Because you know, you're. As a curator. Your job is to research and make academic arguments to some extent. So that is your. I don't I don't like to think of myself as an anti intellectual because I don't have a PHD. But yes, the the research is, you know, it's so seductive like you when you want to know something well, and you work with a group of colleagues who don't accept that, you couldn't know something, or at least that you have to know what you can know. And whatever you can't. No, you also need to be able to explain why you can't know that. And you know, I work with incredible. You know, the research focus between all of my colleagues is a major preoccupation. So we have a research assistant in the department who when we were doing this door, they Alang book on her migrant mother photograph working with the librarians from the San Francisco public library tracking down the microfilm for the San Francisco news from March of nineteen thirty six so that we could read the articles. So that we could uncover the source of the captions for the. Pictures that are in the library of congress. It's like Iran, real good. Really search? Yes, here's research. Ores or crate digging. And you know, sometimes you really sometimes there's a detective aspect to it or looking at installation views of the world's fair in Paris in nineteen hundred and seeing win the very photographs that you're studying are when you find a good enough image of it, you can enlarge it and see how they were displayed there and also though research in terms of understanding arguments that have been made contemporary arguments, historically arguments, you know, you it's ignorance is no is not acceptable. So once you've gotten the exhibition approved, and you're gonna do it. How much do you actually know about the subject like have you basically given like an outline or how much is there to learn at that? It's a it's a real range. So, you know, a fair amount because you have to have been able to convince your colleagues that it's an idea worth pursuing. You know, every piece that is going to be in that exhibition or do you? Okay. You rarely you when you're when you proposed an act was an. Exhibition. Sometimes, you know, like this is the scope of this this suite of twelve works, and that's the exhibition idea. But a lot of times, you wait until it's approved to finalize the checklist to design the space because you wanna make sure you have they fit. Well, they worked together. So no, the approval of the exhibition is fairly early in the process. Usually is it sort of like, you know, what what's there is? Like, this is the story. We wanna tell here's the kind of stuff that might be in it. What it what you say? This is this is an exhibition. I think is worth doing. This is why we say why MoMA why? Now, why should this happen here? Why should we do this now and being able to answer those questions, usually you have an idea of this is the scale that it should be, you know, it couldn't be less than this. Because if I can't highlight the work of these photographers than than it won't make sense. But there, you know, there can be some. Alling around the edges, and sometimes some of the smaller research questions and curiosities are the ones that take the longest to solve. So you know, you're doing it. But you it takes a while to get there. And the committee is not going to care about the little small day trust, you know. I mean, we all trust one another. So once once you have a green light to do something you continue to talk about it with your boss and your colleagues, but it's not it's not usually no one's going to pick apart surveys. You've got your direction once you've got it approved. So what happens then what are you doing? So let's say one of the things that next edition. I worked on recently with a colleague named star figura and drawings and prints. It was called making space women artists and post-war abstraction. And so one of the hardest parts of that was getting the title approved. Now, that's not the hardest part. But it's true getting title that the museum you know, that we as curator's in the museum feel comfortable with. That's a big thing that we do that a lot of cooks in the kitchen kind of coming up with not too many. But but but opinions. And you know, in thoughtful cooks so cooks who think about marketing, you know, in a way that I don't that's not my job. But I care certainly want people. I want there to be a clarity to it and an elegance and all so once you have your idea, and you have the space that it's going to be in. Then you start thinking. Okay. Well, if this space divides neatly into roughly six other spaces, what's the organizing principle of each of those spaces what works speak to those organizing principles. Actually, I should say before you even try to map it onto the space as you say, what's the most important work that we want on view. Like, I did our this won't be an exhibition if this gets taken out, and so that exercise of saying, this is really what's most important helps you build galleries around those works. So then you say, okay, if this is the star of this what else would make a meaningful connection of works around those. And usually there's. Book going at the same time as there can be the one I'm describing right now making space did not have a book, it was just a collection exhibition. And so we had it's true when there's a book sometimes you've thought through some of these things in advance, and there's less a question of like how you would define the edges of it. Because you know, but this part of the fun of collection exhibition is that we own it all so you can really think broadly cast a wide net and even some decisions you make on the floor. You bring something and you say, oh, I love the so much. But gosh, it's really just too heavy. You know, it feels like a black hole at the center of the room. If everything's not in the collection. If it's you're getting stuff from on loan or whatnot. Are you the one who's going to be paddling or requesting or how does that work loans of photographs are a little bit easier than loans of some paintings where you know, Glenn Lowry can often be involved because if we're persuading colleague. Who has an important painting that they want to lend it to the museum, then sometimes we're leaving a big hole in their walls. And we have to help them figure that out of the charismatic megaphone of the museum whereas talking more like photographs no gallery. Now, I say I say this. Feels like love. The photographs. It's just that there. It is a medium of multiples. And that's partly what's interesting about it. It's not that. There aren't unique photographs and we will work very hard with our colleagues to get the right prince of the right images here. But there, but it's not instead it like series of well, yes. Well, my. But maybe the ones that we might be interested in maybe there is only one or two. So it it depends. But negotiating loans is certainly part of the story for sure is that ever kind of your personal connections with others shorter. Yeah. Our colleagues write to us, and they say of Sarah, you know, these six works would be so important to have our show you have the best print. This is a key part of the story that I wanna tell and then I have to negotiate with making sure that we don't need it for another purpose here trade like baseball cards or he does. He doesn't come down to that. Well, but it does you know, it's like trying to say, okay, we had this on view last year. So are conservative thinks that it should be rested. And we have another plan to have it on view in another couple years. So for conservation concerns. It can't be on. You know, there are things like that that happened in photography that don't happen with painting. The idea of a photo. I guess ask you because it can't be exposed to too much light right photos. Just sort of like a basketball or something showing on the side silk sheets. And all we do we say resting the photographs, and it means keeping it in a cold dark place and not letting anybody look at it. Yeah. That's and it has I guess and just otherwise it would turn yellow or fade out. Right. I mean, different processes have different stability in our conservative helps us sort of come up with guidelines. But yeah, usually want something's been on view for three months than it should rest for a year. That's like a general rule of them. So I got away from the process of actually doing. The exhibition, and I keep going down these kind of detours, but that's fine. Yeah. Right. It's all work. This is work detours. So it seems like a lot of work tomato put together a book while you're also putting together an exhibition about three at one. So how many people do you have kind of at your command doing that? Like, no one's at my command. How many colleagues I I'm I'm very lucky that here. I might have a one curatorial assistant who's working with me on a five year research initiative around the work of August saunder, and I have a twelve month. Intern working with me on the Brazilian modernist show, and I have another colleague who's working with me on the Francis. Benjamin Johnston Hampton album, which were those nineteen hundred Paris pictures, and I have another colleague who's working with me on the Dorothy Alang research. So there's there's kind of like a whole team of people, and maybe I'm on some and there's some overlap to some people are working on more than one project. But how long how long does it take for one of those research projects actually turned into an exhibition like it can be years? Yes, you'll have under start with the seed of something. This is something we're interested in at the museum and just keep working at until. Well, it depends on you know, a twelve month in turn is only here for a year. I had to marvelous research fellows who were here for a year each. So sometimes they come in the beginning of a project, sometimes they come in more in the middle, and you try to help articulate both in your own mind, and for their sake like what's a manage? You know, what can you solve a year? What can you or for some, you know, obviously, many colleagues are here for longer than that? So what's their contribution to this project and? At Merrill, Lynch. It all starts with you. The you've always the last to leave the U who hopes to be I retire. No matter what your priorities are your dedicated adviser provides one on one advice and guidance to help you live the life. You want subscribe to the Merrill, Lynch perspectives podcast and get a better understanding our changing world, and how could impact your financial future? 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Before you said that ideas for submissions, kind of just bubble up from whatever you guys are working on is it usually something does start as one of these long term research projects like you guys have your researchers looking into stuff, and then it kind of just hits like certain it gets ripe. It gets by the time. We have a research assistant working on something. It's already clear enough that it's going to be approved or. Yeah. That it that it's an idea that's worth prioritizing. So this sort of very early percolation is more, you know, having lunch with my boss or the other senior curatorial colleagues say like, this is really interesting to me these days or I've been thinking a lot about questions related to this. And then you'll start doing the research. And then then once you get to the point where it's like, okay. This is something that we can turn into you'll start assigning people to. Yeah. And then that can take years. So once you've gotten once you've. Gotten something approved potentially are still taking take years to make it work because you have to do that much. So and then finally that brings us back to actually executing. Right. So, you know, it's I mean, the fun parts are when you're like choosing the wall colors, and deciding on the framing and your installing the work is like the biggest thrill, you know, when you go to the floor, and the they bring up the preparers bring up a bin of works from the frame shop and you finally get to see like, oh my gosh. These are really gonna lay these out and see how they all live together in space. That's that's the moment. And that's your job is nearly done at that point. Right. Yes. Yeah. I mean, other than a few tours as say, so when is your win is your work with with an exhibition over is on opening day is that well it's opening day minus, you know, ongoing maintenance for the exhibition and tours we we try to help people. Enjoy the things that we put so much into. And so. Usually the day. It closes is really the end of it. What about the wall text? You. How is that? Is that all you or typically, but t the same team of people who help research it. So we all right while texts we all nobody signs any of them, which is a curious thing come to think of it because we also want those wall texts to have a point of view like we this. We don't like it. It's not like some omniscient. Something force is saying this matters. But it's really more helping of you're have a specific point of access into a work of art that they might not have otherwise had do you have are you also editing other people's while Tex we've been talking more and more as an institution about sort of the craft of writing and Lee Dickerson, and Sarah and have been convening as to sort of think about what does it mean to write about art and writing is different from being a curator. Although it's as super integral part of it. Because it's not enough to make things look great together. You want people to understand something about why put these things together and why they should care. Do you have any pet peeves as someone who has to write editor stuff because I mean descriptions on museum walls can be something. I am very very grateful that the museum demands a an attention to what the experience of reading a wall label would be and yes, I certainly walk through other museums other museums certain not ours where you feel like are you trying to be you know, OPEC about this. So we really it's a little bit about my object based interest in the medium is that I would rather write about something. And the museum would rather that I write about something specific to that maker or that work as opposed to some truism. About surrealism in you know, in a generic sense that could be true. So you're you're shooting like a little bit of history. A little bit of context. Not something weird villas awful. Yeah. And and I feel like, you know, they're something that speaks to a particular object. Whereas I think there can be a kind of general laziness of like, we you say something. And when I read a wall, here's what you wanna hear my pet peeve. When you read a wall able that could apply to any other number of works. You think you're come on? You know, give me something real. Are. There any words that you like ban. They can't like adjectives herbs that are just like you're like, no, I can't. I mean, what I would the really hard part is when you realize that you've been using a word too much, and you're like, so, you know, unadorned or something that you know, when you when you realize that I myself am guilty of relying on unblinking to myself. Oh my gosh. I've definitely said that one too many times it's like whenever I hear myself say I imagine when I'm relating to my recording of the show. Yeah. I've noticed that listeners starting you don't have the, you know us so yeah, we. We all moments, and you know, for me also I've grown up working here. So I see things that I may have written, you know, fifteen years ago, and I think to myself, gosh, not sure I should have gotten away with that. How much time does it take to write one of those? I mean, a good little wall able can take a long time. But if you've got our five hours today's a wall label shouldn't be more than an hour. Right. A line for us to come back. The no the wall able you where you wanna be with a wall able when you sit down to write as you think to yourself. Okay. Here's this object. And here's something I want someone to know about this object. So then yes, I agonized probably maybe an hour is not quite enough to describe how much agonize over it. But that's my problem. Now, a wall Abel's one idea that you try to take it. Well, but an essay, you know, it can be a longtime in I wrote an essay recently where I spent basically the month of August on it. And then I was assigned a really brilliant editor, and then pretty much spent much of the last month rewriting it to make it better. For a book for a book. So what about the what about the text that goes, you know, Gallard, what do you call that section tax or intro tax, depending on if it's because actually what frames your understanding of the arguments, those those take longer, but again by the time, you're writing that you write that fairly close to the end of the in other words, the idea for the exhibition should be clear in your mind. So when you're writing the intro tax. You may have written a book about it already. You may have written the individual wall labels. And you kind of know, what's the broader story? And we try moment to keep those pretty short. So that means that you have to be pretty disciplined about what you want to say. So how much of your time? Do you spend on books verses actually, you know, putting together the exhibitions like how how would you say your time is split between those probably the book it takes at least as much time in part. That's because. The books that I've been will love books. So I do spend a lot of time working on that in an exhibition can take different scales. Whereas the book, you know, our publications department a little bit like our exhibition committee meetings. If you have a really good idea. Our publications department finds a way to make it work at sort of the scale that you declare to be the best scale for that thing. So I spent a lot of time thinking about books, I also think as a photography curator. There's this wonderful historical relationship between reproducing photographs and books. And so I love thinking about how my work ties into that history. And so how many you just raw numbers how many exhibitions will you actually execute a year usually not more than one sometimes they bunch up because of other things you try to. It's a question of the optimal versus what has to happen for various reasons, but it's rare to work on more than one exhibition a year, but a publication sometimes you can be working on more than one of those met. Once I do you ever do a book outside an expedition or they do some do this Francis. Benjamin Johnston Hampton album book is I'm not doing an exhibition. It's really just a book, and that's going to be sold in the stores, and we sold on lot. Whereas I'm just pitch. My no hits. You can buy it on Amazon, you can buy in the MoMA bookstore MoMA has a distributor, and so they try to make sure that our books end up in all kinds of good places. Sometimes I sometimes I'll like I did a book once in a friend of mine sent me a picture from J crew that it was like on view as part of their display, and I was like I wonder how that ended up. There is it better for a curator to put out books or exhibition or as you have to do some combination of both what's better to have on your resume. I guess it depends on what job you're applying for. So I I think that probably, you know, a big prestigious six floor, meaning large loan exhibition with many works. That's probably you know, the can't get any better. But I personally am so fond of books that I'm happy for the currency that I'm trading in to be a dominated by books. It hasn't been a problem so far so photography. It seems like that maybe lends itself to because people I mean that it's a good medium. Right. And it's almost like the history of photographs and books is so rich that if you're kind of adding to that that feels like a super rewarding spot to be miscellany. We don't have to belabor it. But is if you describe it as miscellany, usually it's not a good sign. Yeah. What is what is that part of your miscellany? Let's just say that I think part of being accuser is also being a convener. So that's convening everyone from artists and collectors and galleries, and so a lot of what we do is trying to pay attention to those all of those the whole universe of people who have a stake in what we're doing here and so- miscellany is probably the worst way of describing it even though I know that was my word, but it means I talk a lot to, you know, people who control estates of artists or galleries are committee members, I talked to a lot of artists all the time. You know, sometimes they bring in work to show us what they're thinking about. And you know, if you close yourself off from all that miscellany, then you're really missing. It sounds like miscellaneous sort of networking around the art world and like getting to know all the players say, that's that's true. But it can also be something like a colleague is looking to do an exhibition of kittens. Let's not anyway, if they were I mean, it would be a hit talked about about total. I can only imagine what the reviews would be. But but who cares? But, you know, so it's even inside the museum colleagues sort of thinking of an idea, and they're like I've been thinking about this, and you know, or someone's traveling here from somewhere else around the world. And you think I want to make time to see you to talk to or a young person is looking for a job and they wanted to talk. So it's kind of networking, but maybe not necessarily for yourself. I guess networks, but it seems like a lot of your you said is you you get works from or you borrow works from colleagues, you know, or I guess if you wanna put on an exhibition of an artist's work it helps to. No, the artists Stephen just like on a fundamental level. I think the museum carves out time for us to do research in in the broadest sense, and it's through that idea of thinking about different ways of doing things which emerged from meeting people who were doing things in different ways from different places. And it's like if you want your mind to be expanded like the way that you've always done, it is in you know, inadequate or is just one way you have to spend time trying to understand how other people do things and see things. When you say that you mean like going and seeing other divisions or even talking to colleagues who are writers or philosophers or artists are curator from other countries. If you want to meet in artists because just like their Email him say, hey, I'm a curator for MoMA. Do you want to grab lunch? Pretty great. Yeah. Use have a free pass to me. I mean, I do I reflect on that every once in a while a lot I'm fortunate that most of the emails or calls that I make the I get a response. And I know that in the world that's not always the case say does anyone ever say, no, sure. Sure. Sure, they say, no, no. I I'm a curator MoMA, you could potentially have a exhibition here or like, I was like well or just like, I know, I know maybe they maybe somebody wouldn't say, no, you know, if I say, I'd like to meet you they say, no. But I I ask for a lot of things all the time to and you know. I think people say no, they're busy that they know it happens. The we try to have it be a no that comes after like, let's talk about it. Okay. Fine. No. What counts as an emergency for a curator and emergency. Okay. Well, an emergency as a work of art is at risk in Hannie way. So that's an emergency. We try to really have those never happened. But but. How does it work of art end up at risk? Let's say the temperature or humidity in a certain environment is no longer as stable as it was either promised to be if it's out on loan as an emergency. That's. This look like there's a very specific emergency or it happens. Tell me as a non Mus or detailed as possible. Well, let's just say the museum systems here are admirable. Like, we keep things at an incredibly stable temperature and humidity, the light levels and all of these things are set, but you send things out into the world. And you know, let's say you get a picture of something in you realize that there's a curtain that supposed to make a room dark. That's been pulled back. And that might mean that there's light full on sunlight, that's a problem. So you know, that that's an art emergency faded photographs before we do not like direct sunlight on photographs that is not that's not acceptable. At that point, you call and do you solve it, and you work with the conservators, and you work with the curator's and the registrar, and it all it all works out. But my ever something destroyed it another museum. Well, we've had things stolen of real loud. It was a while ago. I I did a project on the fiftieth anniversary. Of a exhibition that was here called new documents. And at the back of that book, we did stories from the archives because again, the research was so amazing that we thought let's tell some of these stories, and so one of the stories we told was that Diana artists, photographs which circulated in this traveling exhibition not once not twice, but three times and pictures of hers were stolen off the walls of these other museums. I mean crazy and one of them the our registrar is writing to her counterpart at these museums being like, you can't be so cavalier about this. You know, what what is the how do you policies for that? There's really there's some really great apology letters or financial. There's there's there's an insurance all you. But impart to make these exhibitions whole we had to write to Diana harvest and say, you know, the first time we say, I'm so sorry. This work has been stolen, and then you have to write her again. I'm so sorry. Another work of you. And then you really, and she oh, I wish I could remember the exact phrasing of it. But basically, she had an incredibly good natured response to these thefts saying, you know, I know, I should just be flattered you, I should just be flattered, but could we raise the insurance value beyond twenty five dollars or whatever it had been God. What year was this nineteen sixty? It's twenty inflation is ship. You know? So it was down. I guess. At that point the photo market never had been fair enough. So that's a great story. So that's okay. So that's like worse case. Yeah. That's pretty bad. I guess I would take the curtain over that. And another question I like to ask. But like, what's what's something? That is typically stressful for you like what is just like a daily stressor. Well, daily stressors are the overwhelming number of messages in my inbox. I would say as a daily threat like on. And I don't know because there are things I don't respond to and you're like, oh feels terrible. I hate that. Yes. That's funny. They are can't decide if it's better worse, not knowing. So that's a stress I would say, you know, trying to make sure that all of the things that you're working on or moving forward. You know, it's a lot. So you feel a little bit like a juggler the final question. I'm gonna be asking everybody. What is your favorite piece of art at MoMA? Oh, I resist this question so often, I honestly, I always say. Truly truly Bank your favorite baby. I I make I make a practice of you. It's going to be especially I really care about all of these believe their photos, so they can't get angry at you can't. Okay. Can't hurt their feelings. So I say my. But my my very, Mike urrent favorite. How about that favorite today? If I were to say, my current favourite, it's a photograph by this German-born Brazilian photographer named Gertrude assault chill, and it's called lines and tones, and it's a picture of two buildings in Sao Paulo and the space between them and one building is incredibly angular and the other has this delicious curve to it. And so you get a sense that it's both about the architecture the sort of burgeoning urbanism of Sao Paulo in nineteen fifty two. But she because she calls. It lines tones. You also understand that she's trying to say like, this is about something that transcends the place where it was made some physicality. Yeah, it's a really great picture is that up on the walls. No, sadly, but I hope it will be before too. I'd like to it's in our second volume of fatigue. Geography at MoMA. So you can see back to the books. There's been a lot of fun. Thanks so much. So much comes great. That's it for this week's episode of working. If you stayed with us that entire extra long episode. Thank you. You are one of our super fans, and I hope it was worth your time. And if it was please, please, please leave us a review at apple podcasts. If you have any thoughts questions, we'd like to encourage me to stick to the forty five minute range in the future us an Email at working at slate dot com. The producer on working is the indispensable jazzmen. Molly. Thank you to just be right for our Newsweek and join us next week for more MoMA.

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Working at MoMA: How Do an Art Handler and a Museum Registrar Do Their Jobs?

Slate's Working

50:26 min | 1 year ago

Working at MoMA: How Do an Art Handler and a Museum Registrar Do Their Jobs?

"You're listening to working the show about what people do all day. I'm your host, Jordan Weisman. And this week I'm continuing our series on the museum of modern art near city with another double interview, you're going to hear from Sarah would and Stephen Wheeler Sarah is a manager at moments are handling department. And Stephen is one of the museums registrars, registrars and art handlers are basically the logistic people of museums. They're responsible for tracking and transporting and inspecting and installing every single piece of art that comes in and out of the building essentially, they are the people entrusted with making sure that masterpieces where hundreds of millions of dollars move safely around the world. And it's really high stakes work, but they have a very good sense of humor about it. So I hope you enjoy. What are your names? And what do you do? So my name is Sarah would and I work at MoMA. And I am the assistant manager of art handling and preparation or something really long leg. Your formal, title and. Stephen wheeler. I'm a registrar specifically a collection of shar working with the architecture design department. Okay. So I feel like registrar is the less intuitively obvious job title, like art, handling that at least gives a museum novice some sense of what your department does. But what is a registrar? Right. So I usually preface it with art registrar. Sometimes feel dumb doing because it's two people who do what we do you feel like you're being redundant. But other people are like, oh, like the person who takes your money college. And you're like no to most people like most of my family has no idea. What I do really understand. We do most of them just think I travel a lot like they all just think I travel all the time, which is a very small portion of what we come across during various projects. But but if you're giving an elevator pitch version of it. If you're Bryant explain to your family quickly. Don't just get on airplanes for your job. What what is a registrar base? So. We're the caretakers of the artwork in that. We set up shipping creating the transportation in and around the museum like we get our cues, richer to'real or conservation or about what needs to go where and then we do, you know paperwork, and listen, that's the kind of stuff that we give to Sarah who disperses it to her team. And they're they're the ones that actually execute. The moves the hanging. So we kind of content him in that way. So it sounds like the two of you combined are sort of light and was like the internal UPS or like FedEx further museum is that like a good way to kind of like, you're the you're the office side, and you guys the, and Sarah, you're sort of the actual like physical managing the logistics side of it. Yeah, that's right. And we deal with the actual objects and the registrars deal with all of the like loan agreements. There's tons of paperwork or. Digital now. Hopefully, but condition reports that they do, but we really are. I guess if we're gonna go with like UPS analogy, nothing we're like the drivers and the people who unload the truck, and then the people who install it. And so, yeah, it's UPS. But then it becomes like something something else after I don't know if my UPS analogy, you a little skeptical of my UPS because I think it's so much like better and more interesting than that. Okay. We're gonna we're gonna. I don't know that. Yeah. I have to tell you. We're going to work on my crap. Now by the end of less crap. Let's okay. So let's let's like really concretely windy. You guys. Like winter you called into the process of getting divisions or loans done when you enter the scene. It sort of depends on what the project is like talking about a big huge exhibition that takes three four years of planning, you know, like Chertoff aerials working on that for a long time before any of us really hear about it. And then once it becomes like a solid program that we're going to go after, you know, then everyone starts to get involved. And you start getting information about where all the loans are gonna come from with the material like is it a collection show like so we have shows that are primarily loans like that come in from other institutions private lenders. Or we we do a lot of just collection show. Like on like, maybe like a per department level. Like you could go into a gallery, that's all photography from our collection. It's been curated around a certain idea or artists. And so that would be maybe a shorter timeframe a little bit. So, but once there's basically a show coming up at some point, you're going to be called say we have to actually start actually getting the stuff. Yeah. It's probably like six months year out like you start working on all these logistics like because we bring stuff in from all over the states all over the world trucking crating things are flying. It's there's a lot that goes into getting all that stuff in one room together that is the behind the scenes stuff. That's the heart of what we do is alone. Shogo like the more complicated. One sort of usually they are because we don't have direct experience with the objects ourselves with our collection, usually we've installed it at least once before. Four or somebody knows somethings buddy worked for the artist or somebody worked somewhere else and they've done it before. But if you are having a show of all loans that can be pretty complicated. But conversely, you usually have more time it's like a more structured plan because so many people are involved in all these legal issues. And okay. So that's fun and gnarly. So let's talk about let's talk about one of those shows. Okay. So what how does that start? Where do you start the process for getting this stuff to museum and taking care of it? Where's it begin sensually? Securities have picked out all of the material that they wanna bring in. They've really Stelter lists. And you know, kind of make some decisions about is. That piece worth it. We need it versus other piece that maybe cost a lot of money to make these things happen, and you have to do some costs saving measures at some level. That's interesting. It's cost money because of the shipping sheri-, y you. Insurance all the shipping. You're getting crates made for artworks that we don't even own. So that we can go get them transport them safely. Bring them to the museum. You know? So they're installed and everything goes perfectly are crates really expensive creates are really expensive. Yeah. Like, why is that? There's I mean, it's very custom job. Like, you're you're asking for them to make a nice strong box for whatever it is. Whether it's a painting or sculpture or some complicated, av installation where it's thousand pieces and after we put together once they're here. It's all custom fit. Yeah. And they also have like they essentially go on an airplane people's luggage. And they get moved around with forklift by guy who maybe you should talk to him about how John. I mean, they get driven around the airport. They could driven around out on the tarmac. They're pushed around sometimes they fall over at the airport. I mean, it's like as they're not always paying attention to decide up. Yeah. And they don't really care that you have a Picasso in there. Like, they they have like some chickens and some gloves, and then they have your Picasso, and they're all going on the airplane. So they have. So that's another part of the job that we do. And that is the part that like people hear about and think is fabulous is like we do travel with the art if it's something like a value. It's fragile the lender agreement will typically include like it has to have a career which is when we or conservation curatorial people go to the site pick the thing up and ride all the way back to here with it. It's like always in your sight. It's your your there when they're doing the forklift like you're the one that says like go slower don't raise it up that high like make sure you don't do this with it don't stack it. So you're there to be the kind of is and keep everything kosher. We've definitely kind of detour here. Interesting this detoro, especially since you brought up the causes falling over. So wait has never happened. Never happened. So now thinking of which culture, it must have been that was in the console show. You guys did. Yeah. We're all loans. That's pretty much a lot of. Yeah. Yeah. Mass majority are people at airports and our forklift drivers, generally conscientious. Absolutely. Nobody's they don't wanna mess up anybody's stuff, but things happen. But they're also moving massive amounts of stuff. It's amazing. When you go to these cargo holds like you just see humanity in like, a whole another way just pallets and pallets and boxes of paper towels computers, mice like not that kind of computer. Imagine a giant box full of animals, no animals actual. I've seen ills and that's all in the same warehouse being moved around as the artist coming through. Yeah. And because it's just a shipping warehouse for that your stuff is like so every airline has their own cargo area. And so whatever airline you're using you see all of their cargo when you're traveling with the art are you like riding in a cargo hold like, how are you said you have to have your eyes on it all the time. You you hang out. You're not in the cargo hold of their. Freezing say. Chilin? They're in a parka, right? Like a bag of chips. No, you you don't have your eyes on it to you as much as you come. You. Don't get on the plane until you're you see your cargo physically like you stand at the gate with an agent. You are watching your your freight go onto the airplane a soon as your crate or creates are on the plane. You get on the plane if you don't get on the plane and your stuff on the plane. They can't take off. Oh, interesting. So it's really these are just passenger flights like they're not. Special usually, they're not special airplanes are also cargo flights, which are no passengers just a couple of pilots and a bunch of stuff and usually maybe some horses. Yeah. This sounds like the beginning of a heist movie saying there's a there's a several hundred million dollar Picasso on this flight to New York and someone's going to try and get the plane or something right? So all of our crates like there's no nothing says MoMA on outside of the crates. Nothing says what's inside it's supposed to be a pretty anonymous thing. But then when you go into cargo, you realize nothing else looks like this like you can tell that. It's a pretty special box. Yeah. So the custom maids. Yeah, they should they should like make it look less special. Probably make it look like it's made out of cardboard or something. It's okay. So and this brings us back to where we started which is like you have to actually rainfall this. So who actually makes these boxes like what what are the companies that do that? Is it just like a box maker a barrel maker does this as a sideline or something there? Art, trading art. So that usually there. Yeah. Usually, they're an art transportation company who also makes crates, and they usually store are for people for collect private collectors. And in Europe, they actually have a different model where like one company does everything they do all of the coordination. They do the shipping they do customs. They're also the people that go to the museums. Do the the installation like the very like top down overall kind of the where here it's much more. Like we outsource to a trucking company. We outsource to creating company. Outsource to like freelance installers sometimes for various projects like this is a whole crane the scenes industry that's making the art actually move. No one real again, if you're a regular museum guard. Just don't really know about it. Yeah. I always think about the people that go to, you know, a very famous institution that has a very famous piece or two, and then the visitor goes they're expecting to see that peace, and it's not there. Yeah. And they're kind of like where to go, usually, it's maybe it's gone on loan to some show. Yeah. That's specifically about that artists. And it's a really important groundbreaking show to bring them all together. So it's worth taking that institution's masterpiece for the sake of the larger educational good because art flows between institutions are has to be some sort of network to make it happen to make it happen correctly and safely, and so people don't lose money because the cost fell over and broke, right? Like the amount of insurance that everybody has to it. Good causes harm. Has that ever happened to you in the industry there any examples of art that was severely damaged in transit? Yeah. I mean, it must it has to happen happen. You don't want it to happen? Obviously, try our jobs. Try everything we can to make sure things don't happen. But you know, like a big part of what you do or from. My fantasy point is like when we loan something or someone loans to us one of the first things that happens to it is it so you get it into your museum. You let it sit for twenty four hours in climate to kind of get acclimated to the temperature and humidity of the new space that it's in the new take it out of its crate, and you stare at it for like an hour and make sure nothing changed since the last time somebody saw it. And so the registers take these meticulous note. Let's take a tiny flashlight, and like scan everything and and make sure nothing happened because there's so much liability. Yeah. Writing on like did anything happen like nothing can change. That's more tedious part of it. He's like sitting there, and you're checking and you're like looking at every single corner. And when I mean like are you looking for like did a bit of pink scratched or like, drip Bor in transit? You're looking for stuff that could happen from it slowly timely just shaking for however long trip was because it's on a plane on a truck like there's so you're thinking about things getting dislodged or shifted maybe some surface. That's like a tricky. Like an aggregate surface. You're you wanna make sure nothing's fallen off. So you're looking for all those little things. And then you're also making a document that says this is how it entered the museum and our goal is to have a leave the museum in exactly the same shape. So there's lots of things that can happen during the course of being on view like we have thousands and thousands of visitors. Day that are in these spaces Chet. Gold security manager was telling me about how viewers logic just touched the art like at relate will go in pot the painting. They don't even believe it's the real thing. And then that's another part of what we do during the installation process is we walk around the galleries after it's done, and we're kind of like, all right? That thing needs a little extra protection. We're gonna put something in front of it that should have a platform a little bigger, you know, things that keep the artwork at arm's length as much as we can without you know, mucking up the visual. How do you make that call? Well, I mean, it's usually it's a kind of group decision sometimes lenders specify I want a security officer standing next to my skull. My sculpture twenty four hours a day, or I want stanchions or I want this. I want that a lot of artists don't want any of that stuff because detracts from the aesthetic it's not part of the work. And so they usually it's usually a a little bit of a push pull between. Art, handling and registrar and conservation usually on the side of let's try to make sure something bad doesn't happen. And the curator's artists kind of always want everything to look amazing all the time. But we know things happen bad things happen, so pathetically. We would put every single thing in giant plex box. About about having like just a tiny lake tunnel that people can walk through, and maybe they have to let cross their arms. They can't like actually deviate from this very tight path because it's so nerve wracking. So that's a tension though. The you're you guys are always on the side of safety, partly because you guys you're responsible for them getting it back to whoever owned it original exactly you don't want anything to ever happen. But if it got scratched or something kid touches, it you get into possible legal situations. And you don't wanna go down that road. So we just try to keep everything as safe as possible. So I was telling you guys on the phone a little bit about my very brief experience working at a museum like very very misbegotten the campus museum at northwestern. When I was figure out what I want do that myself, and I was basically handling checklists all day, and it wasn't so much that I thought that was, you know, boring or bad or anything it was that. I just knew that. I was not. A person you wanted handling checklists? And it was not the job. I was gonna screw something. Some truly piece was going to get lost in transit because something I left off. But I'm curious how much of your life is paperwork. How much of your guys lives is checklists seemed very important to Maynas a lot. We do. These shows these checklists I just got one today. Four hundred objects for show. Yeah. And you're just like, wow. It's a lot of stuff to keep track of, you know, everything from like a small ceramic bowl to a car are on the same artwork checklists. And you're like, okay. I got a really get through this. You gotta see what's located where you gotta make a list about what's going to go on that truck. What's going to go over here? What's in conservation already? And it's safe, and you have to just rake through and make sure you've processed every artwork. Can you're ready to do the next step and keep things moving with the goal of getting everything until the gallery on time. And how I mean like how many things are. I'm one of those list. It's like for large exhibition like how much how big can one of these lists get when they start. Yeah. I think I've seen some lists where they're like in the seven hundred range, which obviously is big, and they still need to do editing, and they they bring it down. But like four hundred is in the realm of like a couple of shows we've done for sure ebeth in something like this show. It's up now the Nauman show on the the portion that's at MoMA, you know, on the sixth floor. They're like area fourteen. Yes artworks, but it feels like yeah. So much because they're so big and involved, and they need space in between each other and his work. They'll talk to each other. Anyway, it's very interesting. Whereas you do a show about small photographs like you need a lot of photographs Philip room. Yeah. So it depends on the show. But I don't really so back to your checklist question. I got checklists from people like Steven and curator's conservation. But I'm really just looking. Like, I'm scanning I can skip over all the stuff that I feel like I understand. So I'm only looking for the things that I either haven't seen before or look hard to achieve or otherwise problematic. Like, oh, this one this one looks like it's battery powered like, we're going to talk about that. Like this one takes water. We're going to talk about that this one looks like it's going to break. This looks like it's already broken. So I'm really just scanning for future problems. So your art handling, but you're also art installation. So you're actually you're the one responsible for actually getting this stuff up on the wall. And getting it on display. I started out as in. Art handler because I didn't know what I was going to be. I didn't have a great plan. I had a. And no plan. So I started art installation. Because that's what people do, and I did that at a few different places. And then I ended up at MoMA as an art handler and then now system manager, so I don't actually do the installation anymore overseas. Yeah. What? So you said that that's what people do is that sort of like, a just a normal like, okay. Kind of next step out while I'm figuring out my life in the arts kind of jobbers. Yeah. Definitely. Well, I think that's how a lot of people start like our crew is vast majority artists practicing artists musicians dancers painters sculptors, photographers, the whole lot. And I think for a lot of people that something that they do it's day job. And then they do other stuff. They have this other thing that they do. But for a lot of people at ends up being more than that. And you can really make a career and you can like really develop like an expertise. That's pretty highly sought after. Actually in the world because you're you guys were just describing this whole industry that's sprouted up around it. I I guess I should ask. What is an art handler? It's literally you your maybe the only person or you along with conservation. You're the only people who can actually touch the art or should actually touch the art. That's the first most exciting thing that you realize when you start handling your like, I get to touch the are like I have always wanted to like just see this whatever it is do shop. And now, I'm like I get to carry it around. But so your job is to like help people like Steven do do their job. So he'll say like, oh like these crates came in yesterday, I need to open them up and do the condition report. And so the art handlers open the crates and unpack the artwork and set it up for condition reporting. And then once that's given the thumbs up, then we're the people who moved around where the people who install it. Install it pack it up again. So this crate comes in Steven you have to take a flashlight inspect every inch of it. But you're not allowed touchy layer hands on the thing. That's and that means your department has to have a hamblur there to actually do all that work because that responsible has been vested in your team. We touch it with meticulously. Sounds dirty. Sorry. Yes, I undress the do shop. Okay. I was I was gonna say the best part. I think for us is we have also have like an alcoholic loan program. And you know, we send our stuff out and you get assigned to it. Maybe you're gonna travel with it. And you're the one that does the report before it goes out, and like while we're having the crate mate and art Hanley's doing their thing. You spend like a solid day maybe two days with just like one amazing. You know Jackson Pollock and you're just staring at it like the entire day. 'cause you're looking at every little corner, you're looking at it and the overall, and you just I didn't study art or painting or anything. So it's like when you get to spend that much time with a single work just really get into it. You just start seeing stuff that you never noticed before. Calories can be hard to really take in art in a like amazing, quiet way. Sometimes when they're very busy, and you lose like personal connection. So like, I find that's the kind of really amazing part of our job is to have that in. Intimate relationship with that. Maybe other people don't get to have. Unfortunately, it sounds like you're actually required to get as up close and personal with a painting in a way that if I were to do that the museum Chet would be yelling to get the hell away from it. In you guys get to touch and hold it in your the only ones who are allowed to do it. But part of it is actually just you're physically moving the stuff. But then also the the art handlers, and they are handling tamer. You're getting up on the wall. Right. Yeah. That has to take kind of special expertise. You're not just hitting picture, you're installing installing and installing a painting is usually like one of the easiest things that you can do a lot of times if like with sculpture or three dimensional objects. You really like you really have to think about every possible thing that might go wrong. And so much thought has to go into how was it made? Like, how's it gonna stand up? How heavy is a what if it gets bumped into what if you know? And then you can't have it looked like it's wearing a straight jacket. So it's used to kind of all of this invisible. Precautionary stuff to make everything safe. But also look the way that we expect to look what's an example of an. Visible precautionary step that you might. I was just saying we were about to do it installation. With a lot of lake design objects like things like the forties and fifties that were part of a design project that the museum sponsored at one of the things we're going to hang on a wall is like a rake, and we need to hang it on the wall and mounted in a way that is like invisible, but also secure, and so we have some of the art handlers right now working on these really my new little bits of hardware that like sometimes they exist. Sometimes literally make them these mounting bits brackets and things that like just disappear. Like, nobody sees it. They don't even know how it's hanging on the wall because it's done. So. Yeah. It's not magic. But it's almost magic. I like that. It's like a good description of almost almost man. So part of it is to find a way to to make things safe without being I guess what? What does it mean for something? Like, it's straight Jack. I guess like what is what does that mean? You don't wanna step on the toes of the artists and ten men. That's another reason why it's really great to have creative people behind the scenes because everyone gets it like, they they know what it feels like to have made something, you know, it's like if somebody's answering their cell phone during your cello recital or something like you just don't want to intrude like it's not an thought that like putting the box around something or having guards standing hovering over right? It kind of thing that you're trying to avoid what's like another creative way. You guys get around the having to do that sort of thing. What's a not that? I'm asking you to. Security safe. Secret. I mean Stevens said earlier we try to create distance between the art and people for everyone's wellbeing, but also to keep the art safe. So that's usually the best way is if you can somehow just keep people a little bit further away, and that also usually gives enough kind of viewing space for the work. So you so you're not like literally tying down to a platform. But it's tricky I mean, and I think there's a lot of compromise. Like, I was saying the curator's have to compromise artists compromise. We also compromise. I guess you know, what's the progression? There said a lot of people make a career out of it. And it seems like so you then go up and kind of managing logistics part of it. Yeah. Or what are you doing? Our like, you could be me or you could be like a senior we have lead. Art handlers. Who have a lot of expertise in specific experience that is recognized within our institution. But literally every gallery every major gallery or museum has kind of a lead installer or like head. Art handler in the world, that's a lot of jobs, and usually those people have art backgrounds themselves, and like let's just thinking we know someone who's who becomes maybe like the head person at maybe an artist estate like that's a cool gig. 'cause you're the one that like maybe you worked with them while they were still alive and that person. Knows more about that person's working process and how they made the things more than anybody else does. And you know, now, you're the person that carries that forward and anytime that artist's work gets lint somewhere. You're definitely going to see that person because they're the authority on it. And you could easily end up in a spot like that. I mean for people who like probably, you know, didn't go to business like it's not so bad. But it does ruin museums for you can't you kind of can't I cannot go to museums Zilly Why's that because you were spoiled like I can walk around moment by myself, literally. And I don't wanna look at art with other people. That's so you when you talk about like the tunnel where someone has their arms around themselves. That's actually, your ideal viewing space. Yeah. You're telling me only for them for you. Whenever I go to museums. I find myself like with my hands behind my back and like staring intently, but I'm like, I feel like I'm sending signals to the security guards in the room. Like, I'm being very responsible. I know I'm one of the good ones. Yeah. You don't have to worry about me. I'm so the opposite. I'm because I'm like, I'm going gonna look at the brushstrokes. Let me I try to do what you're actually paid. Ever. They're staring at me because they know on the guy they worry. But I mean, if you if you really into it, and you're like into the process and the materials like I'm really into print making as well. And like you see print on here. Like, oh my God. Is that lithograph is that silkscreen? I can't wait till it's framed, and he's he's of get really close to it. And you're looking at it at a weird angle. And you're like just waiting for somebody to come yell at you. And in the privacy of MoMA, you are totally entitled to have museums been ruined for you to or are you are you not? I mean, I understand the sentiment sending I can look at like entities. Okay. With other people because you don't have those on some. Yeah. But I can't I can't to contemporary art, or even modern Arna. Can't it's been ruined for been runs. She's nothing's gonna compare to having the Pollick right there that you can. Yeah. Well, there's always the architecture of the other museums that you have to experience like a db can. Where it's like, it's it's as much about the space as it is about the arguments in the space. That's there's some other museums of gotten to go to over the years where you're just like this place is gorgeous. I think actually seeing all the exhibitions coming go. You actually get used to the idea that like it's here, and then it's gone. So it's like, it doesn't really matter. What the art is. Sometimes it's more about going to the police and enjoying like, I'm thinking of the Louisiana museum in Denmark. I think it is. It's just a gorgeous experience to go there. And it's like a Louisiana museum. It's called the Louisiana museum. Like, not by Louisiana. No, that's Louis. We offer very long time like as a registrar. What's like a pet peeve? What is something that? Like, drives you nuts in your job. Let it rip. Someone who deals with a lot of paperwork and a lot of legal stuff and probably lawyers. There have to be I don't know registrars tend to be very specific and like organized types. So when you are going through your lists or through spreadsheets and our database for me. It's like if I see one field that just like empty or one thing that just doesn't have a picture and the rest of them, do you're just like why I'm going to get fixed. Like, and you just kind of my one missing graphic in the spreadsheet. Yes. Like, you're just like why don't we have that data? We should definitely have that. Like, you know, could just be that information literally doesn't exist yet say you're very sensitive to flies in the Whiteman. Yeah. Yeah. We want everything to go really smoothly. You wanna make sure all the ducks are in the row, and there's always going to be things that happen. Like, we try to be very precise. And we have put in there's things you can't handle like we have tr-. Trucks going around the city coming to us taking stuff from us to other places you want everything to work out. But you know, sometimes they say they're going to get there too. They don't get there till seven at night because traffic and variations and you're like, you can't really control that. But it definitely creates havoc in your day when you're trying to work on something else. It also you're finding out that thing you thought it was just going to go off without a hitch all of a sudden become a big weird scenario cod. His I mean, you're the planet who's putting it all down this is going to happen. And so Sarah. What about you? What's a pet peeve? Feel like for handling there there there are couple of things that happen that are like the record just like scratch is like the needle across the record. When people tell you to be careful. Oh, yeah. Be careful. It's fragile thinks. Figured because you're paying me to carry it around and all, but so that's one thing. People will stand behind you. And be like is that are you? Sure, it's level. Can you just? Are you? Sure, it's level. Yeah. Yeah. If there's a painting on the wall, somebody's just guaranteed to be like, I don't think that's level. Everybody is just like on fire like everybody's just like in. We're like, okay. Take a breath. Suppress. We've never made shirts or anything. I mean, somebody's should me should put together a little like do's and don'ts for new curator's. Like do not ask. What else would be on that list? I want. No one here is that level level. You have to go in and get like just two peas them. You have to get the level or point. Well, it depends on who asks honestly, like if a curator asks you're going to have to get the level. Okay. Even if it's a new curator got it. Yeah. I think you're going to have to do that. Doesn't have standing who is like who's. I mean, I everybody probably has their own threshold. Honestly, like, I'm probably not getting level. Like, I'm not. Yeah. Like, yeah. It's level. It is. Okay. So what else is on that do's and don'ts list? What have I said already beat careful is that level is it level? I don't know. Okay. Supporter dangerous list. Yeah. I mean, I do you have to go back to work eventually. So there's the people telling you to do your job and be careful doing your job when that is your entire job is to be super grateful, and there's this fine line. I actually find our department's like worked together, which is we get all the information from the artist or the lender or the gallery about like how things was to be put together how it's supposed to look in the end like we get all that information. So we try to forward that to them in the course of the installation where it's like a dialogue. But sometimes it feels like like. Boston. You around Boston you. I'm just telling you what somebody else told me is the way it has to be a little shoot the messenger. Sometimes just like, well, there's a little bit of like an upstairs downstairs thing and like blue collar, white collar kind of is there. There's there's a little bit of a rub. And I think that you know, I don't blame. I don't blame everyone else. They're very jealous. We get to touch the art. They don't. So sometimes that comes out. About putting together. The that's interesting to me like the idea that art has just like it's got assembly instructions. Yeah. How complex does that? Get very. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's like you can tell the personality of the artist and how successful they are like how thorough their instructions and how complicated like fit takes eight to ten people to like put something together. This is somebody with a really big studio until the artists who immediately thinking of coons or something where it's like so big, and there's so much involved and putting it together like you might get into rigging. And they've already thought about it like they know that they're making something gigantic. So they've already thought through the process of like how it comes apart because you have to get into pieces that like I dunno go through doorways and stuff, you know. Sometimes you see an artwork and you're like where that's can't go anywhere like. Louise, bourgeois like spider like a giant one? I'm always like, I can't even imagine how that thing goes together. But it has to come apart. You know, these things fifty feet tall. Sometimes wait. So what is the most difficult to put together show you've personally had to deal with? I wanna say I didn't work on it. But was Picasso sculpture? Like completely bonkers. It wasn't big because it was or it was choreographed. The interesting, thank every breath. It was like nothing could go wrong. So nothing went wrong. Because you're just dealing with hordes and hordes of the most expensive are in the world that and it's indemnified, and it's like every artwork has a different courier. So all the scheduling had to which the registrars had did a great job of organizing shutout Shattuck's in the exhibition world shoutout to read hundreds of sculptures. And so each one of those pieces of work had its own handler who was coming in and overseeing essentially Inada museum is that when you say each one had a career coming occur. Yeah. Every every little tiny pipe, and every giant head was had someone with it to to literally everything, but more. But more than average. Yeah. I mean, some people brought multiple works. Yeah. Like different lenders had multiple works in the show and usually the careers, don't install so they come in. They they oversee the condition check. And and they see it installed. And then they leave. It's like there. The parents seeing that could go off the school. Yeah. They're bundled up. I mean, it's the same thing that we do go in the other way when we lend our stuff too big institution. We're doing the same job where we ride along with it. But we also make sure it gets installed to our standards. It's not right next to a doorway or in front of an air conditioning. Great or, you know, you're there to kind of look out for all those things which is we have the same reciprocal relationship with the artwork that comes in. There's people that have this request and you have to fight by that. I just remembered what the hardest show. The Kyle tough show. L tough. He's a living artist. He's German but lives here believe and was it last year. Within the past two years in living artists. Make it look you're already like in a different level of difficulty because they're they want to be there. And they want to be in charge. And they wanted sometimes to it in the middle of the night or alone or yeah, he just wants to install his stuff in the museum by himself. Yes. What's it's not the only one who's made such requests looking to work. Does he I don't know his work. Oh, he's really everything. He'd super interesting. He does ceramics. He does. He's drawing painting everything of just imagining a lone German meandering, the whole of MoMA language as simply as stuff did you allow him to do we try? We it was a super complicated show because lenders had to give permission essentially for him to handle the loans, which is atypical interesting. He had to get permission to handle his own work. Yeah. Because he doesn't own it anymore. It's such an interesting thing. Right. Like that. It's your art work. But now somebody else owns it. Yeah. And like they're psyched that they have this piece by this person. But at the same time, you might not want them to like say to you. I have an idea when like dunk your photograph in in water for this show or something like that could happen. And you're in this scenario, you gave your kid for adoption and the other guys out at your kid. You can't take back the. At that. Boy, do it. But I mean, he. Yeah. So we had to talk about like what what would he do? And when would he do it? And what if you needed help, and it really pointed out like how bureaucratic having a museum show is and but I feel like I feel pretty proud about. How we I think we successfully allowed him to have the show you on it while also maintaining our professional standards, but it was really hard to find a sweet spot in there and took a lot of talking and feeling it out, and it was uncomfortable. I think for everybody. But in the end, I think it was a great show. And I feel like he I hope I'm not wrong. I think he was happy. What kind of accord did you strike with him out to do this stuff? I think one thing that really helped is that he ended up really trusting the art handlers. The were on his show and he gained comfort and confidence in them through the process. And and then kind of his demands kind of all soft starter soft often at that point. So he wants he felt more comfortable in that people were like, we really just want you to have the best show. You can have literally no other goal. So, but I think it's there's always that line with a person who's doing a project or an installation of their stuff because they're probably more used to more free environment. Whereas like, we have a lot of constraints that are beyond all of us. And you know, we don't want to just have like a bunch of white cubes with like carefully hung art. We wanna have interesting dynamic installations like this. So we have to kind of back out from what we're sort of comfortable with which is like, you know, five things safely framed on a wall behind glass, and these artworks that are more involved like total rooms that have just been taken over by. Just a massive amount of objects. And they're like laying on each other or things that are just knew you talked to mackinac about the whole the got cut in the floor. And you're like nobody was ready for that. But you know, you make it work because it's going to be super interesting and great for the fewers when it's done. I guess this is something a lot of people have done this. I appreciate about. What makes me is interesting. But it's not just the therapist. How the arts presented and you guys have to constantly negotiate between doing it as interestingly as possible. And then also making sure it stays within the letter of legal actually, get the art there. And it's like that's kind of the tension that you're negotia and the new at the same time. It sounds like when you're doing a live artist half the job appears to be just getting their trust like convincing them that you're competent capable. Yeah. And often the curator has that relationship with the artist. And so that goes a long way and fostering that kind of goodwill like all of the planning and the build up is. The least fun most nerve wracking part. Once you're actually in the gallery installing with people. I think everyone feels better. That's when you can kind of just do the thing that you've been talking about doing for years. And so everybody's usually pretty good mood by then until asks whether it's level right until that last. Yeah. The final question, I'm asking everybody. What are your favorite pieces of art at MoMA for me? It's we have a nice little group of Duchamp that are usually on view. And what are they any? We have a lot. It's kind of embarrassment of riches, but we have like I really love fresh widow, which is like a window shaped object and three standard stoppages is good bicycle wheel. What is about the job that you'll much those are like when I was in college and studying art, history and art and kind of trying to figure out what kind of artist I was going to be I. Really gravitated to shop. And I felt like he is maybe the most influential artists for maybe my generation. I don't know. Now, you have to get to pick up, and I actually get to pick up, and I can see like how it's made. And I can see the on the window like the little knobs early. Push pins. You just don't know that when you're looking through your like history of art textbook. Then tile, it's like a different level wariness of what this stuff is made up. Yeah. And I think you get to really digest like how's it made in like what kind of person does that? So that's for me. I feel. The round bingo. The Gordon Matta Clark piece it's three sections of the exterior of house that he cut out in a nine part grid and insulation. We have is three of those like, so I went to architecture school and you're studying architecture, but they also teach you about our and like three relationship between the thing. So there's a couple of heroes, and he's definitely one of them. And so it's amazing to take the idea of just like part of a house, and you literally cut it out. And then you put it in the gallery floor, and all of a sudden, it's just this gorgeous thing and really just look at the materials of the siding, and you can part of it has we're the steps were on the inside that have been cut away. See this like the cross section of stairs. And there's a window that gets cut through halfway. It's just so dynamic, and it just it looks good. Everybody. Put it I have to register someone whose job is to inspect a piece of art for it being like mint condition, or at least the exact same conditioning comes in wouldn't like the wall of a house be sort of a nightmare for you. Well, you know, that's part of it is like it's nothing is in condition. Our Shabbat document, the existing condition to understand where it is like some we have posters that are one hundred years old they're like cracking and falling apart. And they've been creased before that just is the condition, but it's our job to note where those things are like like if it's missing a big chunk of paint. We've definitely noted that that's where that paint loss is and you keep an eye on it. Like, you don't want to get any worse. You don't necessarily want to repair it either. Because it's part of the artwork unless somebody does a bunch of research and figure out like, oh, actually, it's not supposed to be that way. And let's get that repaired or so you need to make sure the house is roughly or the the walls roughly in the shape it showed up in the house, the cut out wall. The of the. One story house does not actually have to be exactly it's it should be should be what it was when he found it. I mean, that's kind of the gist of his thing was like he takes old buildings and cuts holes in them. Cut them in half. Like splitting the most beautiful projects ever cut a house in half in jacked up part of it. So that it split down the middle. So you all you see is this sliver of light going from the bottom up. So I think at the top maybe it's a foot open, maybe. But I think it's only documented and like maybe a couple of videos and some photographs and the idea that the it doesn't exist anymore. I think is really beautiful idea that like he did this beautiful active our architecture, and then you documented, and then it's gone. And like, so the only thing that survives is these it happened. Yeah. It's a great selfie spot. Right. I just wanted to go back to your allergy. Oh, my crap analogy that I never really fixed. I think at this point. It's pretty clear vanden I like to think of us more like a strike force. No, not really military, maybe like ninjas or something like we have like parties like secret hidden talents. Yeah. No, art interests. I'll take that. That's a lot better than. UPS to that was that's not now. Sorry car. It's no staying in. If I say dumb things on the show. I keep my dumbest comments in the show. I try to make everyone else. Look good. Not that you guys needed any health. Anyway, thanks so much for coming on. This has been a lot of fun. That's it for this week's episode of working. I hope you enjoyed the show if you did please leave me a review at apple podcasts. And if you got questions or comments, I mean, Email at working at slate dot com V producer on working gentlemen, Molly. And as a special thank you to direct for the is catchy next week with our final episode in our series on the museum of modern, art any or exotic.

MoMA Stephen Wheeler Sarah museum of modern art Steven Chet Stephen wheeler Louisiana museum Jordan Weisman Stephen FedEx assistant manager Bryant Chertoff Boston art Hanley Jackson Pollock Gordon Matta Clark Europe sheri
Podcast Ep33: May 10 2019

Trainer Talk - The Podcast

1:18:04 hr | 1 year ago

Podcast Ep33: May 10 2019

"This is trying to talk podcast. Brought to you by Sharon Gaskin of the trainers training company, and Megyn that test, you get that cost line over the next hour or so we'll discuss what we've been up to in our businesses top of my topics relevant trainers. A cool tool to use online and, and event to consider, of course, it wouldn't be trying to talk the poor cost without the dog walking digest. And we'll also cover this metres specific issues sent to us by you. You can contact us through Twitter on ads trying to talk poured or feel free to Email. Other Sharon, only if you've got a challenge you'd like us to cover. So why not sit back with the Cupper make that journey or chore? Go little bit quicker with a weekly inspiration developing your training business. Welcome. Okay. Welcome. This is trying to tell the podcast. We are on episode number thirty three and this week for your delight and delegation. I bring you three things about the number thirty three. It is the atomic number of arsenic. It's also according to the Newton scale the temperature which water boils and a new normal human spine has thirty three vertebrae when the bones that form the Cox IX, accounted individually. Thank you go. Well, you know, I really look forward to this every week because that's just learned say worked. Thirty seconds of the past. You say, that's that is one of the hallmarks of a really good trainer. Isn't it that within the first minute you'd learn something new? So there are I think, I think I've just called myself a really good trainer. So let's grow Sova of self kind of, you know patting on the back and tell me about your week Cheryl well the week. Well, we did the first thing to let everybody now is that we were very what's the word we would neglect, lavar GT's yesterday because we didn't record a podcast on Bank. Holiday moon day. Very good reason. Yes. I was that then. Hockey finals day. Leave. Everybody doesn't know that. But the first Bengal Dame as always the finals day for Hampshire hockey. So all the competitions Cup, competitions Trifu competitions plate competitions have been going on throughout the season. In addition to the normal leagues all the finals for both juniors and seniors and men and women play down on the first Bank, call in may and it takes rather lost vampires to social of that's out and a few upon managers as well. So I was one of the tournament on pie manages, along with a colleague of mine, and we both do I do assessment, and he does coaching for Hampshire empires, so between us, we sort of shared the load, if you like of making sure that all our empires were very happy and had what they need it and knew what was going on. And there were supposed to be it had potential to go very, very wrong, which I will come onto where we come to my week. But that's that's why we didn't record yesterday on Bank holiday Monday, they could face and let you are letting. Kind they choose day now. So we're recording on a Tuesday using the elite in swallow waste. We are it feels very weird. I have to say having having recorded so many in the morning on a Monday. It feels quite strange to be doing it towards the end of the day. Yeah. I quite like it the end of the day, it is. Yeah. Yeah. But I wouldn't suggest that because it will disrupt the schedule. On Mondays about enough as is. Between eleven and twelve thirty we'll have to go with that. So one of I've been up to this week. Yeah. This week next week. Whatever, since we last recorded not mention clients this way, they all seem to come together at one sunny hat bunches up night with by service found myself doing an awful lot sessions last week and spending a lot time with the MoMA soon Bill. That's okay. Because sir Kazan will write an alert work in the looking. So it's really nice. So that. So that's good. Then I also said, a loss of time as she would have seen from my news. Lex last week, a lot of time in energy just happen around. Nikki to been around with, with Facebook and social media and basically choose of trying to get my head around all the different changes the communal and all the research and visiting watching the gurus and is a failure so over sleigh in the carnival the I it's important to kick Suffolk speed and in two hundred thousand also too. So keep up with the times and all the rest of it. But after say by the end of it, I was kind of like, oh my God. Just Facebook actually really know what they're doing not, not one. Yeah. You too it before didn't we, you know, we sort of assume that the people that talk now what they're doing? But I've seen enough cases to know that. That's not always the case. Yeah, indeed survey. So very. So I think yeah. I think it is. We discussed many times on the podcast about what you might what the experts the guru. So to say about the algorithms, and all that kind of stuff give you an example. We talked about this morning that, you know, in this particular presentation that I saw the listed the, the post type of post on federal that you could put in your Facebook page, and you know, typically in percentage terms, which got the highest engagement, and no surprise video Taupin anything that was the next link and drive. Somebody wife from Facebook was bought some good advice. I thought, then I looked at my own insights on the Facebook page and some of my top performing. Posts a blog posts at take people page. Yeah, where's the logic the honor? I, I think this is this is one of the things I think, is dangerous about looking at these mass statistics because there's such a wide variety of different types of groups and pages and an activity on Facebook. I mean, there has to be with all the billions of users has the actually this is a good case in point of where these sources to statistics just are of no use to anybody tool, because it just there is so many different factors that go into it, you'd be much better off. I think if you were able to have a set of statistics from similar types of companies, or businesses or something like that. So you can get a bit more granular with it is it reminds me of when there was this huge push for people to stop putting out posts about the best times to post on Facebook and Twitter. And it's like, okay, what time zone as the person that's doing our infra graphic in clicked? Yeah. Yeah, it's got to be something that is relevant for you and your audience. So the best place to start is with your own starts, and then move on from there. Yeah. Yes. At the Ogden. Oh, so really by the end of the week, I was kind of ood. And be the book, you know the series. I mean not on the December newsletter. You know, there is no doubt that the lamb state is changing. It's almost like we were going to have to get used to the fact that we, we will be reaching smaller groups people, the doubts about that will kind of a good thing because it's all about, you know, quality relationships may he wants to be in a group on Facebook, ten thousand people. What is the point of fact in? Completely that was an think there is a normal people saying this to me about, you know, I think people are coming up with Roma circum in full circle, where people maybe back to the extra face like ships in this sort of picking up the phone and things like that, because the social media still fish, too, so crowded and it's also at the moment is so uncertain that, you know, maybe we should just we just got to look at things in a different wire thing I think you're absolute Russian. I think part of that is our, our propensity as human beings to kind of look at something that comes along. And, and in Dow it with the virtues of being the answer to everything. So social media suddenly was saying, we talked about this in the sorta three phases of social major, the second one, being it can be really good for business. But the trouble was, it will it's been lauded as the own so to all. Business issues. Proclamator -tunities, etcetera etcetera, Nicole season nights, everything has its place and everything has its uses a little bit like online training. And then I'm sure they'll be a few people that will be surprised to hear me say this, because a lot of sumptious get made about what I believe about online trading and face training. I don't hate face face training. It's bit like people saying that you don't like Facebook. Exactly just because you've made a particular decision to move part of your business away from Facebook doesn't mean that you automatically don't Facebook and for me, just because I've made the decision to make the majority of my business, online, and to really help people understand, wore online trading isn't what it can do doesn't mean I don't like face to face training love face to face training, but the people that say, oh, well, online training is the answer to everything. That's what training is going to look like in the future. Then the same people that were saying when TV came along radio was going to die riot that kind of attitude that just because it's new doesn't mean it replaces everything. Or it's the onset to everything it needs to sort of, you know, almost explode to settle down into the natural order of what it, actually. Yeah. Best there think that's where we are with social media? Yeah. Yeah. I did actually. One of those sort of I think it's a face. But live at share watched with the with Maui. Smith in about the, the Facebook Google. Am I did actually ask a question in the question the comment she did pick up on it, actually? And an I'm sedate. I'm a question was about. What is not clear with this whole Facebook with the emphasis oversee now gains Mulan groups, and, you know, private messaging and always comes to. You know what are we going to be able to can? We guarantee is the organic rich can be any different. That's what that's what I asked. And she kind of went, oh that's a really good question. Who do you know what the answer is have? No will probably not icon. It was that we are still in the situation where Facebook there's only so much space in the news feed. You know whatever they cheer speedway. There's some space. So everybody's competing for that slice city, probably is going to be pretty impossible for everybody to see everything that you post here that we all. So, yeah. Artem is true. But it comes back to what you're saying about actually surely, it's better to have smaller numbers of quality interactions. We have people. This sort of mass swathes of hundreds of tens of thousands of however many people who you know, just kind of on the periphery on the fringes of working with you. All listening to you and there can't be much mutual value in that. So I don't think but, you know, I mean that say died, I do have a product that is deliberately designed and will be pushed out in the next couple of months deliberately designed to, to be sort of mass market. Very light touch for, for me Connor thing, but it's part of a strategy is part of a bigger strategy. It's not it's not my business by any stretch the imagination so anyway, so yes that, that always Facebook's out by the end of the week, really. No book feeling a lot better informed than I was t- scooter. Nolan counterterrorist to just continue to keep an eye on things and see how things pan out. And then decide where where we. Yeah. Where we what would you go in fool, which lately, I'm not? So he can't be wrong county. Exactly the other thing that happened on the subjective. Statistics flowing in more. So the face to face relationships the still something brewing. Squirrel. We have leash should be able to reveal all next week with five will say move for now, I say this, this secret squirrel is is going really going on. Wrapped up this week, but didn't quite manage the steets won't people that we need to know. Exactly it'd be next week, but yeah, sure everybody's waiting baited breath. I'm sure they are. I think they'll be people false forwarding through the podcast going, where is it? Where's the about the secret quote secret squirrel now? That's a tongue. Twister secret squirrel. Deja today is also in bulk to up. Yeah, elite these of Ivan box on another couple offer trading programs because that's my thing this year. We know but developing myself in, yes. Well, that such stoked. I'm really really sticking, sir. I'm and yet, so I'm not going to be there. What they are. Because why on stay with the tell you how getting on with them as we as we trade, 'cause they might be some useful. Look at it. So everybody can all can all share it and legs loan. Yeah. I'm, I'm sure that will be the case. Definitely definitely excellent. Alright when lay so when. Well what an old week. It was so last week. I guess, really the there a couple of couple of big things to, to sort of talk about from from last week, two nights three big things, I guess, then to talk about from last week to which come into the duck booking digest firmly enough. The I will talk more about those when we get to that particular point. But one of them was that I had again, give a statement to the police. I know. So we'll talk about that bit later. The other one for as far as the talking digest is concerned is a scam had some dental trip to the vets, we can talk about that. And the effects of the anesthetic quite hilarious. But there we go. But the big thing for, for me last week, the I have been droning on and on about it. Yeah. H is was the I did finally did the tough mudder on Saturday? Yeah. Cheering weeping, and hollering and all the rest of it. Maybe the Sounders, some mud also they like that. Well, that would sound. Thing try to get your foot out the modern realizing issues still in it that kind of thing that did happen to one of our team. But yeah, it was ten miles and twenty-five obstacles around a course at Henley few highlights to bring from that were that the our team was kind of equally split between people that are done before people that hadn't. So that was really nice. The weather forecast was okay wasn't supposed to rain and then as we were going round, we have both rain and hail. And the hail came just as we were about she the first obstacle with electricity on it, which was fun. And the wind was. Oh my goodness. So, of course, once your wet from the washer obstacles, if you're standing in the wind, then you get cold from that, all in all an absolutely fabulous experience. But what we learned about half way round from somebody who spent in somebody else that had done loads of them was, the, the course that we were on walls, the Hillier I one that they have in the UK brilliant didn't know that before we started. There were a couple of really horrible hills in all my goodness, may, you know, I mean, I'm glad we did some hill training beforehand, but you sort of get halfway up and his, I if I stop now I'm not going further just have to keep going. But that was a Kayla. The obstacles themselves were were really good fun. The thing but actually made us more coal than anything else was because there was so many people going through the same time you had to Iran in between the obstacles. But then he had to queue for sort of ten to fifteen minutes, and it's great fun watching other people attempting, and some places achieving prices failing to get through some of the obstacles in that kind of thing, but that really goes quite cold. So you warm up running between styles and then he cool down again, whilst you waiting for, for your turn to go on the obstacle by which time your hands and your feet really code is I actually grip hold of anything pro. So, yeah, all of this, in the name of fun, right? It wasn't until I think it was not the must've been about five obstacles from the end, and one of our number hurts had a little bit before that. And I was just getting out of the obstacle. And I felt my right. Calf twinge a little bit and other all night. Please don't guy because I've I have previously hockey matches are pulled both cards one in one match one in another match. At the same time. But I thought, oh no keep going keep going, you know, only little white to go. It'll be fine. So I sort of stretched out and walk to off, and then the second from lost obstacle, which is what they call the merger horn way. It's a massive structure with a call go net going up one side and down the other. But you have to you have to get a, a sort of a bit of a boost. Get up to Sarah cargo net. And just as I got the boost up or not got my second nay on the tiny little alleged that was available. All my right after Saudi to Crump again, I call until this guys and you go people behind him people in front his, I'm holding everybody up. I'm not moving because on not being on this cargo net hundred feet up in the air or wherever is with Crump. You know, I've had to wait for that to subside. Luckily, it went away quite quickly and then I'll go some more again in my right ROY hamstring in the minibus on the on the way back. But I tell you, what, the sense of Cheesman the bruises hut random breezes. Coming up all over the place. I need probably can't see a little bit on mime showing. Sharon more right hand. There's a bruise. Yeah. Yeah. On just run into Blais on my hand on my little finger in the next finger knuckle. I, I have no idea. Why did to get a bruise there? But it just kind of was there. That's wish not sure whether that's come from. And I've got some Alexa, got picked up a pretty exhaust lump on my right shin failure the on. But you just you know you there you've trained for it, you, you just go through and do it. And the sense of cameraderie and teamwork and achievement alien debate was just superb. But all I did how this happened to all the fighters. They take it over us. We, it seems to be in bright glorious sunshine greedy bulls in that warm. It looks like it's a beautiful summer day. It was freezing cold, but we've done it. And we're, we're ready talking about, again, next year in warmer months. The say, yes, got my finish a t shirts. And I've got my very attractive orange. Headband. Which means that I get I get the bragging rights. It's a beautiful thing. I get bragging rights to say that I have completed tough mudder, but the thing, thank key, the thing more than anything else is that if you'd said to me, before I signed up for it, if you'd said to me, the I would be able to complete an obstacle course that was ten miles long with all of those hills. There's no wild believed you know way. So it just goes to prove the Moines, diaper matter on something like this is such an important thing. And I think part of it is having the sort of resilience that you need as a, as a freelance, trainer of business owner, you kind of develop that resilience, gene to. So. Yeah, but yeah, it was great. It's really good. So that was kind of the highlight biggest highlight of my week really getting that done. And then obviously, you know, being able to come up on Friday evening with a huge play of spunk bowl. Yes. Yes. And then had Chinese on Saturday night. When we go back. Oh, all these always food. I can eat because we can spend it all these calories here. Yeah. You know, just goes to show you know there's an important lesson. The lesson with the sir we really come do anything when our minds to it. It li- founding business. How, how often do you say could not eat, you know, that was those Ables? A while ago he moves to go saying, oh, we're not really Jen people, you know, could us when. Exactly, if I if I if I you know, how much gym session three times it's really really weird really weird and I still I catch myself saying, well, of course, I'm not a runner on all of this. I'm not of that. And I still don't think of myself as a runner, but I was also having a conversation with one of the other women on the team going. Oh, yeah. We should set up a running group, definitely for Jim warm. My having this conversation, I'm not a runner, this is ridiculous. But I've enjoyed the runs, I think I'm settled the post before, and it's I think it's a lot of it is about reframing the experience, that you're having in order to just make it something that for whatever reason is more palatable to, to you to go. I can do that. So, so that that was that was my week someday was a complete wipeout because. I don't think as much sorta words at all, actually, which is really good on. I think that actually is, as a direct result of the training, I've done beforehand. So even though I know from my statistics that I'm stronger and I know I'm fitter that I think was the biggest test of how much fitter and stronger, I am in the I recovered quickly from doing something like that, as opposed to still being sort of, you know, very creaky in our unable to move today. But yeah, it may be left for those in the gym near the Dyfi ever to not have to literally have to lean against the war with your taxable. Yes. Yes. Scott time. Yeah. Yeah. As part of SAS, trailing believe it. Having done all sets of that with very so the thing that was the. We said yes at the end of each set was was finishing off without the chalet. The kid over God, you. That was. There was some bloke CLYDE on the floor next to mid June. Something on a mat whatever, yeah. Smokes him. And I said reminds me why we do this again. I said, we pay the money for. Exactly, exactly. So fill fill that, sometimes in the invaders mating be. They want to hear the answers to the questions that we posed should I do this Beckham on Ginette. You know what the answer is? Yeah. It's so true. It's amazing. The deals that you do in your head. Isn't it? If I can just get to the end of this session that I'll do whatever. Yeah. Anyway. Exactly, exactly. Always feels better when it's over. Well, our so that was my wake say, maybe to took it mind. Yes. So this is top of mind was prompted by something that came up in one of my one to one mentoring sessions with one my clients, and, and we were talking about also so things. And she suddenly asked me a question I was like, okay that's not how it works. Well, no, she asked me a question about my business and said, you know, you've got this new, this new Thaksin and the other. What happy in your business and everything seems to be working fine and all the rest of it? So when do you stop trying to improve things for it? She said, you always seem to be coming up with these great ideas, and wanting to sort of change things and make things different Batum. I suppo- yes. And she said, so do you never just sometimes guy that set in officials everything's working fine to which my boss? No. In the slightest, but some critical thinking, actually did reflect on the after the war is ask business owners, Phelan's, trainers peop- with our businesses. He said a point when we should stop the continual quest to make things better. All, you know, is that healthiest unhealthy, a another example is, well, something that had couple of emails this week from people who had just they just join your service. I'm one of the questions I asked, I asked them in an Email. One of the Oto is formed, as they get is wipe joined and both answers to this question to people were completely identical. The buffs in lime. Bain darks. They had been doing a lot of associate worth won't take the company and the company had, you know that this the work dried up, and therefore they were joy dot because they put all their exit one basket. Yep. And I just saw this was shortly after at been asked a question by my client on I was thinking about whether we should stop trying to improve things. There's a good example of why we should because you know, you can't. I'd, my view is that you can never rest on your levels second. That's, that's what I believe, but it would be interesting to have been discussion about I agree that it would be interesting to have discussion about that. But I also agree with you about reading on your laurels. However, I think they're all they're all some sort of qualifications qualifying factors in that the can make a difference between how you feel about continuous improvement within your business. And I think one of those is whether or not, you are a business that is based around a continual service to people or business space around individual products. And what I mean by this is you have a membership community. Right. So that is something that will be subject to attrition, people leaving for all sorts of reasons. And you won't you people to, to come in, because somebody who wasn't to marketeer once set me. That marketing had been described him as leaky bucket. So you'll membership is luckily key bucket. There's going to always going to be a leak over few people here and there leave for whatever reason, you know, sometimes it sits because they, they've decided this isn't a life them. Sometimes they'll leave because their business priorities change. Sometimes they'll leave because they for whatever reason feel that they're not getting value out of it. Which is far as I'm concerned. It's completely bunkers. When it comes to, to the level of value that they get in training, talk, you know, obviously I'm biased about that. An off whatever circumstances have changed, for whatever reason on in any membership community, people are going to leave, and therefore you need to do work to bring new people in. So you can't just stop from that point of view or otherwise. You know, the, the logic would dictate the eventually will dwindle down to nothing. You'll membership will be nothing because people. Believing anyone chopping it up. So I think that is a key difference as opposed to freelance trainers, he don't have any kind of membership community that they're building up with what they're doing. They might have a client list, and I agree that it is not sensible as a business owner to put all your eggs in one basket, and to not be thinking about okay I have worked now. But what about the next three months, six months year? But I think overall people, and I was talking about this with you before we came on air, I mean, people fall into one of two camps. I think there are people who have a very definite end goal in mind, whether or not linked defined, what that is. And then there are people who for whom the, the process of doing what we're doing is something that we enjoy so much we're out of that kind of cycle of you do this until you retire. And then that's a different phase kind of thing all I can't imagine not working now. Now that's just how it feel at the moment. Yeah, I know that, that will always be the way, but I'm also saying to earlier, the I also think I've got another career in me. At some point, you know, the corporate career this is the freelance career on pretty confident, there's going to be something else going on at some point, what or when, but I'm open to that possibility. But the one thing that has completely shifted for me is the I no longer think about the concept of retirement and doing nothing as not working together in this equation. The opposite isn't working is doing nothing. Even though you know, I always thought before when I was in a corporate role, I was reach sixty get pension. Golf traveling world. You've got a cough this week. Not me. So, you know, that's that was how things work. That was the books. The everything was in was being because I happen to work for an organization. The had really good pension scheme and there were no penalties for retiring will at the time I joined wasn't early sixty. But then, as things changed society change turned out the sixty would be early to to retire. You know, that was the plan was to reach retirement age. Take my pension. Thank you very much at the time is the final salary pension scheme Saif. Thank you very much indeed. And then we're gonna troubling, and I'm not saying that's what I do might my job. So to speak as a retired person would be to travel now, having been in the three months lifestyle now for five years, four and a half, five years. It's actually I, I love what I do. And I love the process of doing this, and this is my life in my lifestyle and Bryan joy. I don't know. No. The wants to reach a point where I'm not doing this say. Yeah, I, I need to keep striving. I want to keep striving in my business to improve it to make it better to, to do I need to do a because I still need to pay the bills. You know, I'm not financially secure enough to say that say I've reached the point where like you don't have to do anything and the money will still come in, because, of course it won't. But at the same time, I don't know that I'm looking to reach the point where I don't have to worry about anything anymore because the money keeps rolling in and on. I see that quite all in some of the people that I follow in terms of digital marketing, in the, you know, they could've retired many, many years ago with the amount of money that they've made from their programs and all the rest, but they don't they keep going, the keep I keep trying to, to find something then again, like we were saying earlier before we started recording, I think that there are also two things that drive people like that one is the desire to keep making things better. But also is the fear that what's there isn't enough already. And, you know, I think anybody that has any kind of community has a or any kind of community worth its salt has a little bit of that kind of fear of, you know, I might doing enough is it the ROY thing. Is it what people want? Z is it the sort of thing is doing I wanted to do, which is to serve its members. And that's what a community is set up for us to is to serve its members, so, yeah, that, that was a very sort of roundabout. An we, we set this would be a discussion and cypher has been in monologue from me. But that's kind of where where that's how it fits together in my head. Yeah. Is the, you know, I don't I don't believe the I'm the sorta person that has a specific end goal in mind. And therefore the there isn't such a thing as a Finnish point. And it's not about a Finnish point. It's about the stuff I do on the way. Yeah. I mean as to two things to me. I mean warm constantly coming up with new ideas, and looking for ways to improve things is a way of keeping it fresh and keeping interested, and making sure that you still love it. Because if you are just do you know, I had China's trading company, ten years, and they're not ten years, a things of evolved to lots of different things. Yeah. Lost mistakes, and learn from the things that we haven't stayed the same, though. I think now is nice hotel. Over just to knee would be as interesting, if I was just doing the same thing you know, year in year out might as well be back in the job again. Oh, god. Well, that's the reason more redundancy. Exactly. So, so there is the restart. I think not, that's why it's important for us to keep to keep growing, and developing, and looking at ways to, to change businesses near the reason is what we just been talking about. No business is ever secure. Not look at the number of businesses this year. The, the big businesses have gone out of business business because times of change changing, you know, good. But to face the reason why the happened, this rebound is, is because tons of changing because, you know, face'll everybody fell in love with vice look because community invest of it than the hell out of luck with it because of the data the data still in this competition. Now, all of a sudden Facebook away can go to. Gonna minute should we, we really need to do something different? Otherwise, we might not be business very long and they all got, you know as, as big businesses you could possibly want to look at for not secure. So when you bring that down to our level to the Michael to the minot level. We can never say that we are things that go in so, well, we need to change it. I agree. I agree. And I think part of it is, well, is that we have a tendency is human beings, as well to sort of look at the surface level all of somebody else, and what they've gotten their business and not really see everything that has gone into the business, and how they've got to where they've got to and think, oh, you know, if, if I had that, you know, that would be enough for me, and I could you stop Coniston? And I think that is a truck that we've all folded into at some point is looking at another business that is in a different place from us further on from us were whatever it might be. And just not really properly fully comprehending would work is going into them getting to that level of their. Business. Full thinking will work bid on would have been. And, and I think you know, as you the, the more you are in business. The more you understand the it easy. A constant sort of wheel that you have to keep chatting in order to reach those levels. But when you get to that level, you realize all the levels that are beyond yes. So it's, it's a little bit like I'm going to bring it back to tough. Mudder. It's a little bit. Like when I first started training at the gym, the only deal of even running a kilometer at that point now, bearing in mind, I had already previously fee is previously completed a fitness test for more umpiring when on still empowering. So I knew there on there was a particular level of fitness, I can get to. And it was something like just shy of two kilometers in in, I think it was twelve minutes or less, something like that. And I knew I could get to that level of fitness. But then I injured myself and start training for a couple of years. And then I went to the gym, and the idea of running kilometer was just beyond me landowner five K ten K, let loan, ten miles with obstacles, but of course as I got better and got improved and push myself in realized then it wasn't just a question of love reached that level. That's enough. Now in, yes. Okay. Well, if I can do that. What else can I do on county myself? Making all sorts of stupid things can do. Can do ten miles tough mudder? There's no real reason why can do half marathon. Jill. No on the podcast now yet, but I can meditate lights. But it's just it's one of those things where you think actually this is not some distant, you know, in the future, mythical place. This is actually a possibility and I think bringing it back to business that we have these different stages of going through business when we're very new to running around business. It's all very fresh. Very daunting can be overwhelming. We need to get the basic foundations in place. If we are to survive, those first critical months and years, and then once we've done that, I think we, then realize, oh, actually, if I want to grow my business, not only do have to keep moving just to stand still that's the digital and the cliche, he got to keep moving just to stand still in order to innovate in order to grow, I have to put in this extra work, and that's where you get all the bits about working small to rather than harder. And all that. Kind of stuff, which is, again, this is actually the Suta conversation. I have with a lot of people about incorporating online into their business because online is about getting more box for the knowledge you have without actually having to put in more time 'cause your time is, is a one thing that is a finite resource in your business. So, you know, somebody sets me the other day on piper can remember this properly, but there, there are only a few ways in which you can grow your business. You either or increase your prophets so you either cut your costs. You put your prices up, or you do more. Right. And that's how you grow your business. And I just is struck me. As soon as I said, I got that size simple. Yes. Of course, is. So, you know, in that case, that's what I need to concentrate on in, in my business. If I want to make more money now. Yes. Owens, make more money because I, I would like to have more financial security behind me than I currently do have a number on now. I don't have a finite three point. Yeah. An easy question of every year. I've been in business non show. You found the same I have because I've had that year's worth of extra experience on then in a place to go. That's what's round the corner or what like to too strong for that. Let's try for that and the next year there's another corner and the next year, there's, there's another corner. And I don't mind that I think, if you, if you have a mindset that is where where's the point at which I can stop, please, then you need a very different business strategy to the one that you and I have for businesses. Yeah. No. I think you're right. And I think this sort of secret squirrel thing that she's going to be revealed. Doc to something that I have been thinking about. For while on now all of a sudden, it feels rights, do that you things that undoing this. We re still on this training and just taking things and pushing myself, you know, a little bit more Atma comfort zone and all that sorta still is because this feels right? Meet to do that. We just kind of reached that point where where we feel that, that there seems a little. Yeah. But it it is interesting. Guests for what we all say, you know, answer to the question should we ever stop growing business wanting to develop new things, etc. Is a resounding. No from length Ables lately completely naps lately. I mean we we talked last week, I think about how we both have sort of, you know, hundred mile hundred ideas day Connor thing here. It's not that many, but you think you, you are either the sorta person when you are in business, who does have all these sort of thoughts about how you can develop in how you can grow, how you can do this, or, you know, and if you all the sort of person that has all these different soils, even if you never actually bring them to action bring them fruit to fruition do anything about them. I think that indicates this natural. Prince teeter. No, you're not gonna reach the point of. Oh, that's where I stop is. Okay, fine, you, you will either move into something else. And when I talk about, you know, I think I'm going to have a career change. I don't necessarily think it's going to be a complete stop and shift. I think you'll just be a Morphing from one thing to to the. Whatever that other is I have no idea. But there, there are lots of things I'd like to try and experiment with new. I mean, maybe my stop point is to reach the point of having enough financial reserves behind me. The I can go on going to try. I what was the example, used underwater basket weaving? For years. See if I can make a go up. Don't good grief. Somebody's go to very loud, exhaustion, background. But, you know it's. I think he's is a sort of a hallmark if you like. If people who are destined for the freelance lifestyle is this plethora revived ideas and thoughts, an orca do this, or could do that or the other? It's not about thinking about what's the stop point? What's the point at which done that now get absolutely? And this is this is the beauty of having your business being a freelancer. I say this to my clients all the time. You know, this is your team ABC York, Chinses yoga's, nurse July. You shake it in what ever way you wanna shape it yet so important because if you don't do that he that recognized the opportunity and take it on board and just do whatever you want with her, you might as well just be back in the job. Yeah, yeah. Gibson leaving. And so never be afraid strike things. Never be afraid to experiment, and all that stuff because it's born. Nice to see where it takes completely might be surprised play. I think that, that's the, the one thing I love about running my I'm business. And and again, we've, we've touched on this subject before is the year. The possibilities really are endless. There's no there's no trial by committee as we were talking about last week. There's no gang of people sorta going. Oh. Well, we can't do that 'cause we tried that before you go business case together for that, if you're going to get any budget for it. Blahdy blahdy, blah is, it's just a question of. Okay, if I want to experiment, and try something and go in a particular direction with my business. I am free to do that. Now, the there might be some sensibilities around getting advice from people who've got more experience than I do. Or, or people who have, you know, goods trustworthy alternative view to, to put into the mix. No respite Baltimore. I'm responsible for further. Exploring those possibilities for looking for those opportunities for finding the different things that I could do that may or may not work and unsure, we've said on previous a previous podcast quite near the beginning, actually. I'm pretty confident. It was whereas talking about when people talk about failures mine, I struggle to think of any failures dot had of have plenty of stuff that hasn't worked yet. Don't consider them to be failures. I just consider them to be stuff that hasn't worked. Yeah. And that I think, is it big difference, about reframing something and just saying, you know, you've got to be prepared to try something and for it to not work in order to find the stuff that really does work. And again, I think that, that is the sign of a true entrepreneur, or somebody who is truly cut out for this lifestyle is prepared to, you know. Experiment, and have the don't work and go right. Not in work trust else. It's not a question of that didn't work, therefore my whole. Life is a failure. It just didn't work or something else. So they will. Yeah. All right. I wanna say that we've exhausted that often exhausted just from from. But as as listeners if you have any thoughts comments or commentary, the you would like to add into that, then you can get in touch with us on at traded took port the Twitter. Yes. Oh, yes. And, and we will be happy to enter into discourse with you. It might not be quite as many words on on Twitter as we've just expanded. Yeah. What? All right. Should we move onto the dog walking digest? Let's do. It's just a very a quick one from me this way because that you tail indeed. Boom, boom, Sharon and wash would be happy with that. Anyway, due to I would tell some day afternoon, I went out and very low moisture tillers. Yeah. Just started the war consumed dice been spending lots times completion stuff. And I just I'm so so took Jen on a different of we've been done before. Dan, by now have maybe not not direction for quite as long. I'm this is proof member ages ago. We were talking about dogs, get bored or more. Well, this is absolutely incontrovertible. What was that word incontrovertible proof? Yes. That dog's dig at Fordham won't because this is a dog. It's at the last few weeks, every walk in technology, imploding, alone on, oh, my gosh. She's getting old now. She's really slow plot. Plop, plop, plop, plop, took from this work for two hours, your different. Cheers. Snippet and you know having a little little swim. And then, you know religion shake up. Yeah. Okay. She's like I'm bored with excellent. Oh. Well, that's told you hasn't it, it was a new niece of life. Extrordinary. I mean scams the same when we've been why even if we've been away just for one walk. Yeah. The when we get back to Serie going down the road and into failed and across the Gulf course. And he's just oh my goodness. So much has changed. He's got to sniff everything and check every Bush, and all this other stuff is Dr may seriously an fatigue. They get bored. That's why you know you have to give them variety it. It's funny though, that they, they like the routine of when they're gonna get fed, and when you're going to be their way you're going to be an all the rest of it. But on the dog walk is when they want the variety. So there we. Yeah. There we say, just check the appraise your point. I think that's great fantastic. And Jim is currently in the room. She. He's yes. She's on the church lying down on the floor. The other side. It was now. Oh, bless her Kelly, would I'm sure yeah. She's an avid listener. She's, she's one of our talk for five to ten business shit. We would we ought to talk about that actually, the leaderboard. Yes. Definitely. Well, the leaderboard and the reason why the lead will came into question this week. So we'll remember that before the test. So they've got a little tease halfway through everybody on that one. So, yes, a my dog walking digest, well, well, well, anything explain. Yes. I think so. Well, I think part from anything else, I don't think we will keep our choose rating is child-friendly, like if the full deserve everything. So as regular listeners will know local to me is a huge park area. Cooled Queens Park that also happens to have a golf course. Plunked on top of it, and we get what I call go fists going around it, because it's municipal Gulf call so any member of the public in turn up and play, even though they have a little golf club attached to the local council facility and all the rest of it is kind of kind of run by the club. But kind of. Run by the council and, and, you know, I think it's just a big conspiracy for not to say responsibility frankly, that's a whole other story. So, so. Yes, so from time to time there are little tensions between dog walkers, and golfers. With gophers go fists thinking that they've got the right to go wherever they like him to be everybody out of their way and, and occasionally dog. Walkers, just not being very cognizant of the fact that there is golf being played on this golf course firmly enough, and they might want to look in case there were Gulf balls and go around so long as you're sensible more or less most of the time everybody reps along. However, a couple of Fridays ago, I had an unfortunate incident with the gentleman who is playing around on his own who decided that he was the most important person on the golf course that day and didn't take very kindly to the fact that I was getting too graphic in video evidence of his. Bullying behavior when he wasn't very happy about scam. Doing business on the golf course and holding him up for all of twenty seconds. Right. Are in this, this is the stupidity of the entire thing is this guy just got very, very wound up about the fact that he was being held up by bound twenty seconds wasn't listening to anything. I was saying earn I MO intention was to just get him on video. Yeah. Being as rude as he was being and to get a good shot of his face. So that I could report him to go clubbing. Casey was a member and they'd be able to do something about it. Anyway. Long story short this gentleman. It's not Jim gone out yet. She's, she's had the story ready. Story short. This gentleman took exception to, to me, filming filming him on my phone and actually physically assaulted me. It is close. The police have confirmed. It is close as salt now before anybody shopping, take a breath and all the rest of it, it was, it was probably the weakest form of assault that you probably have insofar as you can actually hear me laughing on the video, the he's being stupid as he was. But I have it on video, and reported it to the police as he do and show, the movie evidence and all the rest of it. And the reason that I'm able to talk about it now is that they did find the man concerned, and they charged him with salt and what's going to happen from this point forward is the t-, obviously realized that he'd been very, very silly as the police. That came to see me today, it he realized he's been a plonker. So they're going to make a recommendation that although he gets a caution on file eighties. Restorative restorative Justice process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is essentially where he basically has to apologize to my face earn and show contrition for, for being plonker, which I'm quite happy with, because, you know, I think that is one of the best ways to deal with bullies is to make them from top to the stupidity of their action and on wrong. The think that all of what I did, which was to, to report it, and my intention was to just say, hang on me. You don't get to bully people like no matter how bad the day you're having that is not a course of action that is open to you. So I should be quite happy with without the now Comey mobile little wall, incoming as the policeman. The can't see me today was quite quick, pointing us won't be awhile. But that's fine. You know, it's, it's, it's for me, as far as I'm concerned, it is the right outcome in that he wasn't stupid. He didn't try to NY as the police said, there's no way anybody could have in their right mind. Annoyed it because the was there on video, you know, I had hoped that he was probably a nice man, having a bad day. But say time. Staff, and they're still no excuse for treating another human being like that. And, and also, you know, some of these a lot of the people actually walk their dogs around there. And I think the few those people if they had been subject to the sorts of abuse. Verbal abuse, let alone the physical stuff the he was subjecting metoo that would have been awful for them just really truly horrible. And so as somebody that isn't naturally, overly affected by this sorta stuff is up to me to stand up to bullies like GoldenEye, I am not going to let you get away with that. So, yes. So I think that some all will be one well in the end and I can talk about it now as obviously the guy's been interviewed and has been cautioned, and they'll be record industry. I did check with the policeman who cannot talk about this or more calls now. He's like, yes, she can tell you what when we first came. With the idea for this section. Wasn't gonna be serious. This was it. On I but today, well I think there is still even though it's, it's not particularly savory and it's not something that, I think most people will ever experience as a dog owner or anything like that. I do think there is a business lesson in there, which is to stick true to your values and to and to stand up for, for what, you know, to be right. Because more often than not truth will out, even though it feels like it won't two ways. And, and, and that's I think part of the reason why I'm such a big believer in karma. What goes around comes around, and, you know, I, I don't think that calmer is necessarily a passive thing. So I've played my part here in making sure that somebody who was perhaps going down to Paul. That was not the most sensible has had that pulling up short moment of our God. What have I done? This is so stupid. Maybe that might prevent something else happening in the future. The had I not done. This might have happened. So very there's lesson own to funnier things on the dock walking. Oh, yeah. Having the snake I am. I'm really complement scam scout cut his teeth clean. So when he went to the vets resigned, you'll booster kennel cough, all that kind of stuff checkup that sort of thing, the vet examined his teeth. I think I mentioned this couple of weeks ago and said oh, you know, he could do with the teeth clean. Then that's not bad. I've had him for four years. It's the first time he is a bit of a chew or talked about the bones before and funding anybones for him and all that kind of stuff. But in order to do the proper clean and examination. And just in case there was a problem they had to do an extraction then used to give him a general anesthetic. So this is the first general that he's had since I've owned him. So it's a little bit worrying and sort of, you know, go to get in there and. Oh, that kind of stuff, even though logically, I knew he had to have had a general anaesthetic before because he's neutered. So he's us to have gone under before. And I know that they would have examined him and dogs trust, and all that kind of stuff. But still, you know, first time since he's been with me, and, and he's seventy Schnell. So, you know who knows. But what was lovely was that they asked do you want to phone call when he starts coming round from the anesthetic, and also? Yes, please. Thank you. So it's about hop us twelve or get the fine couse was lost Thursday. Got phone call to say we start come round is he's recovered really well from the setting, we just want to keep keep you for another couple of hours of olds and then you can bring him time. So I collected him to help us to costs three. Flex is he was still a little bit drowsy, but he was obviously quite pleased to be going home. But as soon as we go home, I think, because it was Thursday. And then all bits and pieces I had to get on with my work. I couldn't just sit with him. So one of the things I had to do was edit the podcast and get that out something one normally during the day he'd just be sleeping anyway. So it'd be fine. But for whatever reason he decided that he didn't want to lie down. He was just going to stand there. So as he's standing there. He's also still bit woozy. So he's trying to fall asleep, but he's trying to keep himself awake, but is back right leg, just kept slowly trips dig away from him. And he back up again. Chipping away from him. Again, every time I globe around he was just let just warm leg was just trying to detach yourself from the rest of funny. I'm so sorry, but that is hilarious. See I could tell by the time the evening walk came around. He was properly asking for food, and probably asking, and he was more or less back to normal and definitely back to normal the next day, and he's got a after take him in for checkup tomorrow morning, which is just a free sort of follow ups thing that they won't do just to make sure everything's okay, but I'm absolutely positive. He's fine. Because he's totally back to normal. Now not is normal food, and all that kind of stuff. They, they gave me one of these finger brush things and a little cheaper liver toothpaste. I it's a major for up a hill. Chew, it's there's absolutely no point in trying to do that. But just. It was just funny. So we go over over the general anaesthetic belittle, drift e leg. I. Degen had the same thing. But last year, when she had the team that she has you covered the smear about health miles take hours because the team so because she doesn't share Surgers berry in God near. The searching and it was so funny. What went through decide things about, you know, feeling worried wetting. Thank God head back. She when all the sofa of this is LA every night. So we have our dinner. She just makes his what she literally comes to live. And she me follows was the dishwasher, like I have you not listening tripping over she's like God. It's got to be a spaniel thing, my mum's. Coca Perisic say. Say recently. It the night you go to back to the vet when she had the teeth out and have the jevon on the subject. That is the only night in twelve years. Does she know politics additional while as she just literally, I elected to place off the table and the looks she looks at major? All that. So funny, does she try and lick the plates whilst being stuck in the dishwasher, if she can get away with it. She accident released. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be right. And I can hear likely. Yes. Still Cooper is actually the same sort of just stunned just slightly the background. And then as soon as he s you looking. I mean, oh man. Quick getting the so forgiveness sake own ously scam to do that. Because the dishwashers on the slippery kitchen floor. So that's fine. I'm sure he would if there was a rug there before. Oh, it's funny. Day. Right. There's nothing digest. Let's move onto our book of the week, which you talked about last week that you'd started new very excited about it. So do tell. Yes. Okay. So this is the second Hemi power one remain. There was talking last week, sort of reconnected with the book that she'd been the nine years ago. Yeah. Only and I didn't realize that she had recently been able, which is could businesses personal. Let me what a lovely title is. Yeah. Book is pig. Very pink is very indeed nice as well. Well, yeah it's, it's really a finished. It's great really good book. Title suggest really, it's all about succeeding in business, and enjoying your business because you're doing on your turn a log. So it's all about, you know, not really trying to date anybody else talks about comparison Itis to sit. Thing you know. Is about the emotional side being business owner, you know what makes you happy? Important name tear most. She talks about the emotional skills that are needed to run a business ought to look after our cells in order to look after business differently, does Nutley. Yes. So there's a crack head of chapter near the end of the book about volleyball yourself thought that was the best charter, the whole book, you know. And it just talk about the value place when yourself and all she also talks about the where Cuckney epidemic flee. I like that. The fact you know that isn't that pedantic sandwich. Read the nation out there. And she was sorta took about the facts you know how she deals we believe people's brains. Can I just any sentence? Yeah. And how if you're not careful can come really ever take Caridi. So get in the way that that was really interesting chat. So yes, so he's good. Did school could stuff August of highly recommended on? It'll be keeping his place on my bookshelf. With a pink cover with an obviously lovely fail like that. How could it not out? What would you market after ten at night? Good. Yeah. She needs me over next week. Get you nine dropper. Copy next week. Well, you see, we're going up in the world. That's what it is. In fact, with probably week we just about this, but will coming onto the cool tool that in a moment, where, we're starting to get requests in to, to mention different tools of ways quite, so, I think people clearly we have fall more influence. We actually do. Or I should I should move swiftly onto the cool tool and this week, we are talking about something, I know a lot of people know about any way, but just in case is to cooled canvas. I n VA which is website that gives you the opportunity to do sort of Photoshop, like graphics works. So to create infographics create Facebook group headers linked in profile headers touch up photos that kinda thing it gives you the ability to do that. But at a much reduced cost than what you would pay some night, Photoshop, which frankly is, is something the really if you're going to be doing a lot of graphics work, which I do that factor. Shop is worth an anon- Photoshop place, resell many, many times over with the amount use it. But if you're not a specially technically minded person, and you, you do. You need the ability to create some quite simple graphics for your business than canvas is really good option. And you can try it for free for thirty days and thereafter. You know there are a couple of payment options for it. Just scrolling down the patriot to see right, there we go. So I try free for thirty days or I think there's one, which is. Oh, yeah. So you do have a free forever plan. But there's a few sort of restrictions on what you get for that. All you can use camber for work or camber enterprise. I mean that's quarter a big one Bert, it gives you the options. He as a site to upload images, and then design using dragon drop style different ways of creating sort of images might need such as head. Is that kind of thing? So, so I think it's a cameras a tool itself is something that is really useful for for people and certainly when you first had the top trainer templates they were done in Campbell one day. So, so people aren't quite easy to go in and to update, what they needed to narrowed information, and that kind of stuff it last you to size and Reese is text and different colors and images on and create PDF's that kind of thing. So if. You want to just a simple PDF to have a lead, magnetic giveaway for people as an invitation for people to keep you their Email address that kind of saying or to share linked in then Campbell, be really good tool to do that with. They say they actually wrote to you didn't. They. Because they heard the in one of our very early poker. Step sites. We talked about mind Meister way back when we mind mapping to. And they've just sort of I think they've just launched this to called is called bubble maps. So we'll put the link in the show notes for your icon, find on their main website. I can only through the links they center, so put that in his 'cause well, but it says sort of illustrate your bigger is with a with a top notch bubble map from from Canada. But just looking at various pictures on here, it, it looks like just a sort of a more advanced version of words smart. So if you use PowerPoint all word an Yoon stand, the small taught functionality, in that, then it looks like a sort of a disturb mobile whistles version. So, yes, so well worth checking out, I would suggest. I'll be able to report back to campers they, hey, we each on the podcast. Most definitely unequality lessons listeners are going to give us five star reviews or veasley itchy rights, speaking, speaking of which one of the things that happened for us this week is that we're sort of starting to work in order in with Rachel authored member of team poker's, one of the things that she found out was the po- cost wards Pushpa cost would. And she said, oh, you know, worth some just getting a few votes for this just for exposure, mobility. Also, we, we put the call out having wage of every. And lots of wonderful people saying, Yep. Voted Dun, Dun, Dun, which is just truly wonderful. And thank you. If you are a listener who's done that forest, we very much pre sheet it. We had a few people saying, oh, I hope you win. I'm not sure we will. I think there are probably just a few pocus larger than us. In present still every vote is very much pressure to so we will put the link for that in the show notes as well. So that was good. And that was what we were leading to talking about Libor. Because we were saying to people all, you know, we definitely need our top five to ten listeners to thing for us on that one. I think what's wonderful is that you've had a number of people recently that sort of just surprised you by saying. Oh, yes, I've listened to the podcast are really Espy mainly basin, because that's one of the, the frustrations the podcast, isn't it that although we know how many people listen, we don't know who is, let's stay. Let's. Yeah. And so people are just just pop took somebody books place that try to live today. The first time and I talked to her on the phone and she said, oh, yeah. You know, I listen to you on the podcast week, really. L said he's in my network. I've known for a long time does some defined for something else. And yeah, I'm sending message instead of just for your Stacey service. I keep being reminded on the podcast that, that I should do. I should do that lesson. Delist. Do she said, I do this live. Just now. I'm big misnamed. I didn't brilliant because even though we can see on the stats. We have now post two thousand listens. Which is mazing. So we can see the numbers of people listening, but it still it doesn't feel quite real in that respect. But one of the things that was really lovely as well was when we were doing all this stuff around promotion for the poor costing voting was the I just had a quick. Nicole chains to, to see the ratings on there. We, we do. Indeed. Thank you. Gorgeous vistors have a number of five star reviews on there. We also have one person that's left one stop. But with no commenter expiration, which as far as I'm concerned, it's all fantasy to and credibility to the fact that you would not forever. Everybody that's fine. Couple of people whose names. I don't recognize who have put just some lovely commission already gorgeous things and saying, this is a guilty. Pleasure. I love this podcast. I listen to every week I really look forward to that kind of thing. Just all that. So nice that's as far as is unconcerned, I would say we in that respect. I went there to speak on your behalf as far as I'm concerned, I just have a nice chat with Mamane and it's just today. It's, it's that sort of thing that. For that to then translate into something that somebody looks forward to. Just really get. She doesn't it. It's amazing how you can the power of podcast. Really? Yeah. How you because you go somebody in your ear, you know every week. And telling you I think the best podcasts of those that are Cassation's Dillard, bit about people's lives, as well as the business. Yeah. This, this podcast, I listen to many tennis podcasts. But what was I really enjoy is called the body? It's basically by these guys two gay guys in Canada. And still, an basically than talking talking about tennis. But it's so funny. The things they talk of this Lakers best people do and the Beagles. You know, I'm on the streams and twist regents Coniston over the years. I just feel really got to know the. Yeah, then but we at shamed twist messages, Instagram messages. Now, of course, say, I was so good at it because, you know this business about Nikko into the master's. Yeah. Not going to let masters because we strayed win. It Ryan boom in the yeah. Yeah. Look the same week is times. I know I was like, okay Ryan, you've really should a chat the day. We. But what has made it even move of sing sing got it about the facts. I'm gonna miss. They're also really scared of telling. Day was like he's like he just pretend. Sharon gasket, you'd Ryan. Eight. That is a good strategy. Is it Kim on? Stupidly, good shit by the facts that on the podcast lex week, they were talking about Saturday would just pack for two weeks and committing Europe. Because this is the first time that the debit poma going. When I went on my go to believe that a set because I had to kiss him we could've Nestle might. Yeah. I know really o the moment of the nation, how you can active met these. Is. But we're at the point where we were quite conceivably a week ago dodging together. Here's I feel I know the Molyneaux me. Yes last. Absolutely is incredible. You're quite right. You podcast on social media together. Absolutely. And it has been TY thing you know, I think it would be slightly with, if you've just been listening to the podcast and then over some new said, hey, let's meet up in Romans. This is for four years. Exactly. I should. It's amazing. Yeah, it's true. Well, I mean I'm talking a little bit about this last week when, when I met up with somebody that, you know, I only met and spoken to with online in, any finally meet them in person. It's real pinch in just to make sure you're real person. And it does it kind of rounds out fleshes out somebody in your mind to actually meet them in real life because you have so much richness of information. More information about them as a person. So you've already established online, the, you know, you get on we going to be very excited here about your coffee with penny power next week with. Catch up on that one. The whites right. Yeah. We better. We better really where we're at an hour and a quarter again. Sorry listeners, your journey hasn't been overly delayed or has been laid enough or you enough housework. Once you're listening to this. Whatever is you choose to do. You're listening to the podcast. We are as ever very grateful for your company, and you patience with little rambles, my little rambles. So thank you very, much time do get in touch, trying to pulled on Twitter if you need to get in touch with us at all. But other than that, we will speak again next week. All right. Bye. Fine.

Facebook business owner Twitter Sharon Gaskin Jim warm hockey Connor Jen Hampshire sir Kazan Cheryl golf MoMA Lex Nikki UK Megyn Alexa NY
WHEN SHOULD YOU QUIT YOUR JOB ?

Anna Jelen The Time Expert Podcast

22:23 min | 1 year ago

WHEN SHOULD YOU QUIT YOUR JOB ?

"Krone takes a seat at the bar. It's late at night. He doesn't care that he's the only customer. The bartender is already cleaning glasses but moves to Krohn and looks at him nothing new for him to see a broken man sitting at his ball what his head down low krone taps his fingers on the counter looking at a wall of bottles or can I get for you. What what you look like a whiskey man okay and that's what he gets lately? He has been discovering the city boss always a new one. He remembers the first night he couldn't sleep and KC and I went to a ball around the corner two hours later he was drunk and fell into bed and slept the next time he was lying awake in bed. He thought it shouldn't become a habit by he went again today. He tells himself it's just a face he would get out of it as soon as the problems at work of solved if does damn colleagues wouldn't be so annoying. He can't stand being around him anymore and he spas <unk> a catastrophic. He shakes his head. The bartender has been observing him Crowe looks at him. I'm your only customer. Why you always always glass took? The trade makes people nervous when about the just stance that at least bartender wisdom on me. I'm lost in space here you wanted to be you feel like you're supposed to be somewhere else. You said it well say you could snap your fingers and be wherever you wanted to be. I bet you still feel this way not in the right place. When did you get so hung up on where you'd rather be? You forget how to make the most way are you are. What are you telling me take a break from worrying about what you can't control yeah Reut liver little he puts the money on the counter empty glass would one gulp and leaves without a word typical backseat driver this bartender krone things to himself? He's in no mood to hear another wise advice so what for now he stands on the street. It's always busy even at night. He starts walking down streets pondering about life. He sees a couple laughing. Happy well good for them. That's not really what he experiences in his life but how can he would a crap job like he has but what could he do. Nothing it's not that easy to find another job and if those damn colleagues which is listen since about a year now he starting to have chronicle paints feeling depressed all because of his bloody job suddenly he stands in front of an old cinema cinema about three people standing in front of the cash desk. He looks at the poster showing the tonight. Movie Demolition never heard about this movie before but yeah why not demolition. Edition matches his state. It's the three a m show. He didn't know that this exists he looks at the others he wonders if they are also having sleeping problems one guy fixes him what and his geese he pays the ticket enters. This shabby owed cinema and takes a seat in the back row little did he know that this evening will change his future bye. My dear listeners out there. Welcome to another episode with me on the yield under time expert someone who wouldn't stay for too long in an unhappy job situation Brian. Why because I'm the time expert with time is precious and having the feeling of wasting my time is a new death for me? That's why I made a deal with myself. Concerning unhappy job op situation I remember was in the beginnings of my twenty s sitting in the office where I worked and I wrote down on paper three months three months to try to turn back the wheel to make the situation right. If I couldn't influence my lousy situation I would have to quit after three months of being unhappy in my job. That was the deal and today came where I declared to my job situation as non satisfying anymore. Did I quit after three months while I tell you in a bit now I'll take you back to the Shabby owed cinema where krone is watching the movie demolition and of course eras but you haven't met him yet. He's quite a for some reason I wanted to tell her things. I found myself mapping interface as I talked out. She got me talking about my wife. The movies over grown rests in his seat. His thoughts are spinning around in his head. He hadn't expected this. There were so many aspects in this movie. He just couldn't figure out what it all meant but there was something suddenly another guy sits down next to him. Did you like the movie. Krone startles looks at the Guy Moma some incomprehensible words and gets up and starts walking tour to exit. Do you like the movie. The guy asks again. Krone stops it was alright. The guy nuts cronies starting getting a bit annoyed by scully following him. What does he want from him anyway? It's time to go home. He walks away away and leaves the man standing behind back with thoughts in a movie still wondering what it is that struck him a taxi pulls over he gets in take me to hill road. They start doc driving the driver fumbles around with the radio. Krone has never heard this song before in his life until this evening remembers the scene in the movie demolition looks at the rear view mirror and meets the eyes of the taxi driver. Did you like the movie Oh man. It's the guy again has he followed him. Who all you crone asks? I'm Aris Crow looks at the taxi driver batch. He was wrong thinking he could get rid of the guy so he gave up so eras however I do. Did you like the movie well he goes when I watched it. The first time I thought he was only about las but then when I watched it again I understood that it is also about self expression and then when I watched it for the third time I also understood food. The most of the people are stuck in a giant. We Love Hamster without even realizing it so I asked myself am I in it and the answer was yes and I ask you are you in the big nasty. We love the hamster. A fixes crow watches him looking outside the flickering lights of the city passing by so what did you do when you realize that you were captured in the wheel of the hamster. I quit my job and I became a taxi driver. Oh and now you're out of the Hamster Wheel Awat. Maybe not I don't know but I feel better. It's all that matters in the first moment. You wouldn't think that two guys leckrone errors become friends because they are two of a different kind but sometimes is life brings us together to learn from each other and is what happened with those two guys two characters collide with each other on the one hand you have krone chronically unhappy happy and exhausted but doing nothing about it blaming orders all the time drifts away in his misery and is leading the precious time to pass without even blinking and then you have aris a guy who appears in your life when the time is right. You never know when he arrives. Sometimes he shows up for a moment and as quick as he came. He's also gone again. A was doesn't fear risks even though he you might be mistaken by he rates everything as an experience. They couldn't be more different than still a risk is never too far away from Krohn and with time krone can feel the impact impact. A rose has on him. They spend hours walking around in the city talking the most of the time they spend it in the taxi listening to music driving around and talking about life one day krone is on the way to meeting points but today is different. He notices a growing sense of curiosity. This observation flashes this krone and this my dear listeners. If this ever happens to you that you suddenly started noticing the increasing sense of curiosity that is when your life will change krone. Thrown starts to see things he has never noticed before he starts to see life and it's full of life. He walks down the road and it's everywhere a fire hydrant. Leaking seeking a kid is running a homeless guy sitting and shivering. A woman looks directly in his eyes smiling the first raindrop falling from the sky. The smoke is coming out from the chimney. He Si SI doll Dron can't wait to tell errors about this news insight but Amos doesn't show and not today often about a year later krone hands his boss. The letter of dismissal would a smile on his face. He walks out out of office half an hour later. He enters a bar. He plays himself at the bar counter and starts talking a little bit more than a year ago. You told me that I'm not and where I wanted to be at. I forget of making the most out of it and to take a break from the worries. I couldn't control and you said liver lately. I thought you were a narrow gance. No We'd all day at this moment airmont. I was just chronically miserable and I thought it was the fault of others. You have to understand that in my situation. I didn't even think that there could be places. I'd rather be a never felt like that. What did I realize that I was stuck in the same procedure every day stock in a monotone life no I didn't feel anything I was numb that night? When I was here I got to know heiress? He became my only best friends but as unexpected he appeared in my life he also disappeared mysteriously. He couldn't stand it when I sat in his taxi complaining about my job. Stop complaining. Despite emotions will eat you up from inside. Do something change something. In the beginning. I didn't Banaras this was all about the proper time for action. He believed that he was always the right time to take action but that it was crucial to know what for was it the right time for me to quit my job no but it was the right time for me to become a nice colleague that was when I started to read books about teamwork and communication. I saw that could still turn it around but to March had happened at the job. The wounds were too deep. Was it the right time to quit my job no still not because I was too afraid but it was the right time to start reading every job advertisement. which existed was it the right time to find a woman note because I was focusing on myself to become a better version of myself one day? I felt different. I remember I got out of Department when I felt. With this growing sense of curiosity I felt this deep state of euphoria. I couldn't wait to tell a rece- but that was the day he didn't show up for days. I was angry and sad add on for another week. I went to pop every night and drank myself into a coma. How could he leave me alone fucking bastard but I had changed the moment I was sober? I Yeah I knew that the opportune moment was here. It was the right moment. I felt deeply. I wasn't fearless but I knew it was the right moment to take responsibility and to do everyone WanNa favor and to quit my job and that was two hours ago my boss asked me and what are you going to do now. Do you know what I answered. The ball tender shook his head. I said I'm going to live a little my dear listener. Are you more like krone or like eras. Let me tell you a bit more back to different characters in this story because they are based on Crohn's and Cairo's these are ancient Greek words and they both re present time the best way to differentiate between krona's and criers is to see time as either a flowing river which carries us away Kronos or a quiet lake which we swimming Kyros we all experienced experienced Thomas both all the time in whatever we do in Kronos we are stressed in Cairo's we are refreshed and chronic smashes time in seconds minutes hours days Yays etc and this just a word which measures quantity of time Cairo smashes time in the best moments of life it measures the quality of time it does not matter minutes but it measures moments. It's the most beautiful right magical an opportune moments. Where are you living in the quantity of time or inequality of time? Look at the era. He lives the moment it's a risky game we agree suddenly he's just stare and suddenly just gone but he lives the moment and as I explained we live both Cronos the flowing river where we are driven and Kyros the lake with swimming but police my dear don't forget careless or Aeros if you instead think of him as a person if you are in an unhappy job situation think of him eras. Are you swimming in the lake and enjoying it as he does or are you floating in the river without control or are you already drowning be aware of the moments if you are in an unhappy chop situation before quitting start to create moments. Make colleagues might pay your boss drink. Take the one who earns INSTA- leased out for dinner. It's not all about your job. It's about the people you are around with. Be Aware that you can control so much more than you think. Remember was always called the little rebel. Bill because I always questioned the things didn't accept the decisions which were made at work and you can do this as well if you want to. It's your decision. If you want a little remind go and listen to the episode it called create. Your own rules my dear listener out there. Are you happy in your current job situation. I mean we all know that we spend a lot of time at work and that's why I believe that you should have a personal criteria to rate your job. Find out what it is for me. It was and still is very simple criteria number one. Can I implement implement or at least try to implement my ideas at work Creteria number two if I can't contribute to a good working climate anymore and my energy is disappearing in thin air. I might consider sitter changing department or job criteria number. Three is my job making me sick or making me feel good. I don't think one should quit the job too soon because we shouldn't shouldn't underestimate how much you can contribute to make your job position Abed the place and we shall remember that not everybody can just quit their job in some counties or circumstances. It's not that racy but but but but it's always possible only the consequences are different. Maybe today is the right time to ask yourself if you are living a little or if your job is taking all your energy. Are you happy with your job. Can you change things to the better and if yes are you doing it and how could alternative spe- we arrive at the end and there is one last question open the die follow my rules to quit my job after three months of unhappiness no because I tried to keep it up. I tried to turn the wheel around but in the end after more than six months I understood I was captured any limits and I wanted to realize my ideas so that's when I I quit my job. Did I know that it wouldn't be easier off towards with being independent no but I didn't care I had a little bit of errors in myself and just followed my instinct of totally and fully live my time. Do I regret it with all the ups and downs now not one second my dear listener wherever you all be wild and noise and take care of yourself and please whatever it means for you live by by. I'm by the way if there is anything you can do to support this podcast. I will ask you to share this podcast. Which is one person in your family friends or business network just one person maybe it's not this episode but another one unlock this together we will have an impact on another person and perhaps this person is going to look at time and life more differently and positively afterwards?

Krone Krohn Aris Crow Crowe Cairo Aeros Banaras Brian scully Abed Kronos Crohn Moma Amos coma INSTA Bill Yays Thomas
OBI interview with Bengals wide receiver Josh Malone

Cincy Jungle

06:58 min | 1 year ago

OBI interview with Bengals wide receiver Josh Malone

"<music> hey everyone it's anthony with the orange black insider bengals podcast enjoy this set of interviews recently done by our co host john on share in these interviews include hearing from the likes of bengals head coach zack taylor quarterback andy dalton running back trayvon williams wide receiver josh malone offensive lineman billy price and linebacker jermaine pratt. These interviews also feature other members of cincinnati bengals blogs and podcasts. This is the type of content we love to bring you and will continue to do so during the preseason. He's in regular season and offseason. Thanks for listening coach new offense <hes> he's been wealth no adjustment but everything's more fi- chemistry's well with the team and just looking forward to play you've been in on any of the pre-snap jet motion kind of stuff yet or is that been mostly cody course on the other guys. All involve is not just a few guys. Everybody's out there on the field. So how's your chemistry with andy that you're running with the ones with a._j. How good o._t. O._t. as a lot just a lot of rest with andy <hes> but i felt like our chemistry building very well. She'll be good even taking kick returns back as well. How's that been fun way back when but <hes> again missed it one of the biggest changes for you coming from your previous two years in the new offense offense by receivers they make more post nap is a tree snapped motion whereas one of the big differences on offense general your your individual responsibilities mortgages like hotel office is different is nothing like who's running in the past two years. You know everything's tighter heider movement. There's a lot of things you gotta use your eyes. You got to be smart. A lot of justice on the floor is just makes you think a little bit but not too much tighter. You mean the formations tighter like you're more convinced of. Most of the past two years have been alive so you coach back in the days you giving you any personal coaching you or your new arts. Here's coach. He's being the most health throughout near <hes> a lot. <hes> we always we see something you always walks up and tells him what he wants to improve on always gives me just little things to keep working right so and so this is your first year with an offense head coach this like hot-listing have your head coach like more involved in the offense. They're gonna play basis. Who've been great great. Great does william being evolved with the offense is always like really matters to him so <hes> that's one thing you don't wanna missile lost all his is there any like. Did you watch the rams offense. Exactly they're coming in. Oh you'll be. <hes> took a look at their offense. There's some similarities. We've got our own differences. We've got our own of offense is ages. You know the guys would office they they did and i believe you can do the same thing so so. It's the biggest improvement for you coming in and year three you've always had ed speed came into the league as a young guy in his third year now. What do you feel like you're doing best. I'll try to approve them run every year as mature and as a player moma more focusing <hes> taking care myself off the field and just how i've been to meetings and it just professionalism studying knows taking better notes and stuff like that big <hes> thing going into year three the first years so with the starters. Are you more specifically just like the excellent or you are also routine with the flanker i don't. I don't think he'd been sloppy. You guys like routine both sides of the formation one spot for the most part rotate. Both we all know every offense <hes> so <hes> wherever they put us we just going just blue cheese on offense to where we can learn everybody this so we really ran with us. We're talking to andy a little bit about when the play itself breaks down. You have to go off script a little bit and how there's been an emphasis on that. Is that something that's an adjustment for you. It sounds like it was something that was made an emphasis last year. Oh well issue vote. Play breaks down a lot so there's a lot of nasa's happening on a lasso fires the first years dose adjustment at you're too late now. You've just got this basically a second like play once again. You've been listening to one one in a series of recent bengals interviews courtesy of co host john sharon he recently spoke okay with members of the cincinnati bengals including head coach zack taylor quarterback andy dalton running back trayvon williams wide receiver josh malone malone offensive lineman billy price and linebacker jermaine pratt john was joined by other members of <hes> both since he jungle dot com as well as other bengals podcasts but this is a pretty exclusive set of interviews that we bring you on our podcast. We thank the cincinnati natty bengals for the opportunity to speak with all of these members of the team and we thank you for listening to this set of interviews will continue to bring you more of this type of material throughout the rest of the preseason regular season and into the offseason. Thanks for listening <music> yeah <music>.

andy dalton bengals cincinnati bengals zack taylor jermaine pratt josh malone billy price trayvon williams cincinnati cody anthony nasa rams moma william john sharon two years
261: Practical Tips and Mom Hacks From Physical Kitchness Chrissa Benson

The Wellness Mama Podcast

49:18 min | 1 year ago

261: Practical Tips and Mom Hacks From Physical Kitchness Chrissa Benson

"The. Bobby podcast. This episode is brought to you by one of my favorite people. Isa Harare, and her pelvic pain relief system. Let's be real second. Having the kids can be tough on your pelvic floor, and even if you haven't had a child, there, many things that can cause pelvic dysfunction or discomfort. If you have ever leaked urine as you laugh, cost cough, sneeze or jump. It may be a sign that your promise could use some, the good news is that these types of problems can be helped, and that is exactly why he says here. In fact, I can say thanks to ISA that after carrying six maybe I can jump on the trampoline with my kids or run around to play capture the flag or sneeze, when they bring home a cold without worrying about leaking. But I know many women who struggle with these activities. So if you ever have you have got to check out Isa's free masterclass which teaches things like. How to stop those extra bathroom trips also had to improve your posture, and to put the fire back in your sexy, and bring back ulaby with some easy stretches and movements that you can do anywhere, anytime she also explains why ky-ko's might actually be causing some of the problems or making them worse. And how to know if that is the case for you and what to do. Instead, even your doctor will be able to share this with you. And ISA has helped almost fifteen thousand women find relief and freedom. So again, claim your spot at her incredible free. Masterclass all about pelvic pain, at pelvic pain relief dot com forward slash he linked again. Pelvic pain relief dot com for slash healing. This episode is brought to you by butcher box which has been my source for high quality protein for years, but your box delivers healthy one hundred percent grasp bed and finished beef free range organic chicken and heritage report directly to your door on a monthly basis. All of their products are humanely, raised, and they are never, ever given antibiotics or hormones so you can feed them to your family. Knowing they're safe. It's so hard to find quality meat that you can trust and put your box is changing that they offer free shipping anywhere in the continental forty-eight United States. And right now they have a special mystery offer just for wellness podcast listener, and in fact, it's so good. I can't even tell you about it publicly. But if you go to butcher box dot com for its lash, wellness mama. You will save twenty dollars on your first box. Plus, find out with special mystery deal is that you can only unlock at that link. What's your box carries the highest quality organic pastured and grasping meats and their bacon is a favourite with my kids, I usually create our meal plans around our monthly butcher box border by adding tons of fresh veggies, from our local farmer's market, and we've always been really impressed impressed by the quality. So again, make sure to go to butcher box dot com forward slash while nece momma to get twenty dollars off your first box plus unlock the mystery special. Hello, and welcome to the MoMA podcast. I'm Katie from on this mama dot com and I'm here today with Kris Benson, who is the founder of physical fitness, which is an online health and wellness one-stop shop dedicated to helping busy women reduce the overall and that we all have, and living our best, healthiest lives, her mission is simple. It's to motivate women to take care of themselves so that they can take care of their families, and she has so much great advice for this because we all know, we're supposed to do those things, but it's so hard to actually make it happen, when your mom and I love her blog because she has such a unique mix of her truth talk, mom life humor, which she's amazing at and then things like simple, recipes meal, planning hacks, which she's a mazing at and effective home workouts. She has two boys ages two and four. And she's married to an active duty marine enact, we're gonna talk about it, but she raised them for entire year, while he was deployed, she loves pretending that she's a backup dancer for Bruno Mars and the master stepping on Legos our kids, leave on the floor. And owns too many pants to count. And I share both of those last two points with you. Krista, welcome, and thanks for being here. Thanks so much for having me, Katie. It isn't honor to be on your podcast. I am so excited to have you here and I love that you are, like, in the trenches real life, giving helpful tips for moms because I think you're so right there so much overwhelm. And mom's these days, we have so much on our plates, and feels times things just keep getting at it. And I know the rab- part of your mission is to empower moms to take care of themselves, and I also know as a mom, that's one of the hardest things to do. So I would love to hear your take on that. What is that look like for you, in a world, where everyone says you need to have self care, but there's also so much pressure on us all the time to do things where family in our spouse in the community, just everything. Right. I mean the biggest I think setback for for moms self-care. It's universal. It's we just don't have all the time in the day to do that. So although we really. We wanna make the self care thing priority. The problem is we just don't have the extra twenty thirty forty minutes in a day. And we all know we really need it, especially so glad that people are advocating for it more. But there's just seems to be no space in the day when we have to fulfill the needs within our families. But I think the real problem is when we don't reallocate our time for doing something that serves us, we get really burnt out, and for me personally short my kids or my spouse and mining Zaidi shoot through the roof and oftentimes, you can feel like paying of like this funk, or this gloom, even though we have these great lives in these kids. So I think since we can't add more time in our day, it really does circle back to reconfiguring allocation of time even if it's letting something go so we can have that just ten minutes. And when I talk about self care, I really think of it more as like soul food. I mean we can we traditionally think it as like the bubble bath with massage reading, which is great. And it can do wonder Suth. Booster mood. I really think self care is doing more about something that lights, your soul because when you're really in that kind of state, you can refresh kind of your who you are aside from just being mom all the time. We're serving everyone else in. So I really think it's about finding a passionate purpose aside, from our daily duties because we love our kids, and we love this gifted role that we have to be their mom. But I found that it wasn't until I started fulfilling a passion that I love to do that was totally non relatable to my purposes. A is when I felt like I was really taking care of myself, because my soul was full of the creativity in accomplishment that needed to be more chrissa than bomb. So I think giving ourselves yet more priority to do that just makes us better for a partner in our kids. So we aren't showing up on empty, and it doesn't have to be this long extreme thing. Everyday could just be five ten minutes just to do something that, that fulfills you a little bit more. I love that. You brought that up. The idea of getting lost in being a mom because I think it's so easy to do, especially when you have really young children, which you still have pretty young ones. They demand much time, rightfully they need so much. But you can kind of like forget yourself in that and, and just be like, everything you do is just revolving around being a mom. And that's something I used to have conversations even with my grandmother about before she passed away, just the changes that had happened, even in a couple of generations when it came to motherhood, and how when she had young kids, certainly, they're still all of the work that goes with babies and toddlers, but the just different societal perception about kids being eventually to go play on their own and not needing constant entertainment in supervision. And she had these things fulfilled her as a person, not just as a mom. And you know back then they had like dinner parties, and they went out on dates a lot more than I know a lot of us do today, but she also had hobbies and she would build things she had things that let her up that didn't just revolve around. Her kids? And I think that's so key. I love that. You found that as well. So I guess your blog is part of that outlet for you. But like chocolate about how you learned that. And what that journey was like the blood is, is most definitely the outlet, but that was that just a, what might passion was eventually lead to my business, then I feel so blessed that I can do what I love and what lights me up, but I found that after I had our first baby, we moved to a new city ahead, baby. And I was really excited to quit my corporate job and be stay at home. Mom, I was. So this is like such a dream, and I loved it, but heart of me felt like okay, what else can I do during the day? Like, I felt something like I needed more, I needed this, this other outlet aside from being mom and changing diapers. And I love to cook in. So I continue just tried to make great meals and found that that was a creative outlet for me. But. What ended up happening is? I was I was experimenting in cooking in balancing the mom tours and stuff, and my husband would come home. And I was so excited because that was like my accomplishment that I had done for the day, made this great meal, and he would lovingly eat it go. Yeah, it was good. And I'm like, what do you mean it was good? Like I laid over this Bill. Look, it was like my outlet, and I just I needed kind of more validation, and it wasn't even it wasn't even him. It was me that just like crave more. And so I quickly realized that I needed to put it in, in a blog needed to chronicle my journey cooking and healthy eating. And so I felt like I had something I could put out to the world villa -ccomplish in wasn't relying on like my husband's praised for dinner every night. And it just that's how it really volved. I had found my passion through that I went to bible studies within my church in we were talking about using your gifts that you were given. It was really hard. To try to figure that out in eventually came to me that cooking and living healthy and balancing the duties of a mom, especially for us as we move all over the country. And I don't really have a tribe because we're constantly relocating it was important to me to share that into hopefully help other women do the same. Yeah. I think that's amazing. And I don't wanna project on us. I'm gonna ask it as a question. But I know for me in that time when I was in the throes of the toddler years and motherhood was kind of all consuming. I also had that desire for something that was just mind that was outside of motherhood, but also felt really guilty about that. Like, as if motherhood alone should be fulfilling a flight. And I'm juries if you ran into that, as well, I think a lot of women at least I can speak for myself felt that. And I think that is also kind of specific to our generation a little bit. Like I don't think past generations worried about like, oh, why am I not completely fulfilled by just being a mom? But I'm curious if that was your experiences at all as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think I think social media is so great and it connects us. I think it can also give us false perception of what we should feel and there's no really one size fits all, I think some moms are fantastic at raising their kids in being seated hamams in the are fulfilled by that. And in some people need something else, along with it. And that's okay because we're not all is same, and I feel like we we're in this generation of like we have to do these Pinterest style birthday parties. And we have to be fulfilled in. We have to sell care in. There's always like keywords in these terms, but like I said, there's no one-size-fits-all approach in. So I'm really vulnerable sharing that on my social media because I realized once they started like kind of sharing the things that I feared I would be judged for that. I think everyone fears they might be judged for. I receive such an influx of messages in just thoughts from other moms that were like, yes. Thank you. The things that I feel, but I it's taboo to say, so I'm really all about, like a non judgmental approach to how you parent in how you live your life because everyone needs different things just like our kids need different things in her kids are totally different people. It's the same thing with motherhood. Yeah. Absolutely. I think yeah, you said it perfectly. And I know thinks things like social media. I remember for so many years, I would see everyone on on social media, who looked like they had it all together. And it was is leading because I felt like I think I'm the only mom who's not figured this out. Like, why am I feeling at everyone else has like their kids in their perfect clothing, who smile for photos, and like their house looks clean? And I think people you that kind of break that open and be like, look, it's real life. None of it's perfect. And of course, we all put our best foot forward quite often on social media. But I think it's so empowering to see other women being real. And speaking of being real, I think you are also uniquely qualified to speak to this, because your husband mentioned was an active duty marine, and I met you actually when he was deployed to Afghan ASEAN, and that was a, a thirteen month deployment. And so you raised a one year old a three year old on your own, and you didn't have, like a huge community of family support near you. So I think you have figured out the systems because you survived that so share with that yearbook. Like for you. You and how you were able to find some kind of balance between everything you had to juggle during that time. Balance is still is still a hard thing for me to master. It was then it still is. Now I'm still trying to figure it out. You know, my mind goes, I think one hundred twenty miles per hour, most of the day as many of our Stu, but during that time when he was deployed, I just remember so many moments of feeling overwhelmed, raising McCague's and running the business and managing household we don't have family nearby. Really don't have a lot of close friends since we like said, constantly move. So I wake up with these great intentions, like today, I'm going to be super patient. I'm not gonna raise my voice in literally twelve minutes later, my kids be up screaming and fighting in, I'd be barely out of bed myself. And I was losing my cool ready. Then I feel guilt in the night, hustle through the day by three pm. I was exhausted. It was just kind of nuts in. So after a few months, right after my husband left, I was I was really struggling in, so I realize, really. Had to prioritize my time in, in buckets, so that I could have kind of mental vision of how I was my life was playing out and I could feel more at ease with how I was spending my time in a how it's been time in what I was saying. Yes. When I say no to. And so I do this now. Like every so often right down. My three core values in terms of how I spend my time because that's like, the, the lack, I think, in most of our lives is, is mostly time in so every kind of phase might be changing a little bit. But it always usually revolves around family, my work, which is passionate and wellness in. So when I was solo parenting, my values were one was pursuing joy to was my career calling three was our health. And so when I broke that down, I just thought, okay, these kids are really demanding. I'm struggling, so I need to find something to pursue joy in. So that meant I let go literally all expectations, I left the house dirt. Earlier than I'd ever left before. I said, no to a lot of obligations in honestly, just really stopped carrying as much how I looked or how it went on public truth be told. And I just found ways to enjoy my kids in those heart ages that they were they were one in three at the time. So it meant spending evenings at the beach not carrying if my car was going to be a pit of San afterwards or not battling when they were wearing mismatched clothes or shoes on the feet, because those are things I would maybe prior of judged mom before, not, not as a mom may be prior to being a mom everything cash, your kids, look soda shoveled. But then I realized it just wasn't worth it. I, I needed to pick my battles in decide what we're teaching moments in what wasn't worth it? So I really had to make sure I made time for joy, even if it was messy and the second part of that core. Value is fulfilling my career passion. Just doing something that course let my soul and made me feel accomplished when I needed that will boost in the moments of despair, I felt often and creating healthy recipes in workouts for moms because that just fulfilled my purpose. In the last part of it was health because it's really really important to me. It's really important me that I'm staying active in working out, and that we're eating well, and so I always may times put a little work to plan ahead. So that was cooking nutritious meals. And it had just become ingrained in me that this was a court value. This is not negotiable that staying active in eating well was a part of the deal is part of our life in, so I will say it meant that. I said no to a lot. I said, no to a lot of work travel opportunities. I said, no to let of girlfriend gatherings. And I know that's also really important for self cared connection, but I knew I had to prioritize couldn't spread myself, too thin. So I said, no. To lot of asks that usually feel guilty about but I knew what I had to do to realistically take on what was priority to me without burning out anything that's really, really important. That is so key in so much of what you just said. I was sitting here like, yes. Absolutely. And especially a took me probably more like four or five kids to learn this, but about picking the battles and really like prioritizing, what hills, I was willing to die on, and I came to the exact same realization. It was like, you know, by number six, it was like if she can dress herself. I am not going to hear what it looks like because she dressed herself. And also, that's not a battle, I'm gonna fight, even as they get older. My husband I had those conversations like, what are the things that are truly actually important to us that we get across them or things that are part of our culture, family values, that do matter, the battles, we are gonna fight, and it wasn't things like what they wear or how they want their hairs of our sons wanna grow their hair out long. One of them is doing that right now. Then I'm not gonna fight that because it's his hair, he's almost thirteen and. Or, you know, my girls when die the tips of their hair purple, like that's not a battle that I'm gonna fight. Another key for me was learning not to do things for them that they could do themselves, because, especially in those toddler years, it was just so much easier to do everything because they're slow, and they would break dishes, like it was just a clumsy process. And so for longtime I was trying to do everything for everybody. In one of those key moments for me was making that switch to. I'm not going to do things for them once they're capable of doing it themselves, which means the most of them know, do their laundry, they do a lot in the kitchen. They help around the house and the will also a game changer for me as a started getting older, and I think you also highlighted such an important thing about saying no. And it's so hard to say, no, especially to those girlfriend trips or when people in your community ask you to do things to help, but that's sort to prioritize your family and your mental health into. No. And you mentioned that eating healthy is Hugh Treorchy for you. And I love if you. Share some practical tips for mom's on making health eating a priority in how you actually balance that with kids, especially when things are so busy. Yeah. I think that meal prep can be like this term that people automatically in their brains. Goping. Kate means hours of weekend batch cooking and cute little Tupperware with their section of meals. I just that's not realistic to me weekends are family time, which is one. Of course, my core values. So that's one hundred ten percent family. So I don't do ton of meal prepping what I do. Instead is I allocation like ten to fifteen minutes in the evening to do something that sets me up for clean cooking success the next day, so my kids will go to bed around seven thirty eight o'clock. This is just my time it could be anytime today. Really? But that's when I like chop veggies, or put together marinade or I'll remake breakfast or whatever. Because even just at ten minutes already puts you in a mode of planning ahead. You're not stuck the next day or dreading your. Gonna make for dinner and making that kind of the same ritual for me every evening, just it turns into a habit and it's just what you do. It's just what you're more likely to identify in new. And it's what we are. It's what you are, as a mom, so that you can take care of your family's health when what they're putting their body in. It doesn't feel like a chore when it just becomes so natural in. I don't think meal prep needs to be complicated. So, often we think like I'm dealing with the kids, and I have worked unable to stuff it can be just like throwing together aside for dinner or making a quick sauce or some random basics like pre making rice, or Tang veggie basis. Like, deuce read brussel sprouts rice, cauliflower, just having like basis, or sides, make a big difference, because then you can throw together meals on the fly, which just becomes easier and easier more you do it in. So it's those make ahead components. I tried to include in my life include a lot of like tips in my recipes in my meal planning guy. Because it really does help to shave off so much time. When you're cooking these real meals at home in it can really lessen that overwhelm when you're when you're managing your kids in your life, and you don't wanna make cooking this big bear that you have to tackle every night. Yes. Lutely curious. For more specifics on your food approach, especially with toddlers because that does seem to be such a pivotal age, for getting teaching them how to eat healthy. But also a time when you tend to run into them saying, no quite a bit. So what are some ways that you've got your kids to be on board with eating real food? I really started right away. And, and I kind of have this, this approach of it's maybe hard knocks somewhat, but this is what I this is what I give you and there's not making separa- meals, and there's a little bit of leeway were all, you know, make things that I know that kids will, like, but generally, we eat together as a family and my kids learned kind of the ground rules right away. But I know it's it can be easy to say that in it's really hard to execute. You have to be so consistent in can be really concerning. If your kids don't eat anything on their plates near, like, ripping your hair out, or if you have older kids that you may be didn't start right away, when they're in those toddler years, so I've few tricks that I've learned because my youngest was a notoriously picky eater to start. So it took a lot of trial and error, but eventually to see a pattern when I've make meals in the kids like those meals in one simple way was, I would to get them to eat veggies, per se was, I would roast the veggies or make them in a small teeny, tiny amount of natural sweetener in the oil that used to roast them, so like us a little pure maple syrup or raw, Honey. And it was like a really good trick to encourage my kids. Eat their veggies as opposed to hiding them and everything because I don't believe you should height hide foods to get your kids eat great food, but those kinda like that. Little sweet kick kind of made their taste buds. More apt to trying it in eventually, I just weaned off of that as they matured, another hack I have picky kids is to add fruit to protein. So I have a recipe on my website, these five ingredient Hawaiian chicken burgers than they have pineapple to bits incorporated into the ground chicken. And so the kids, it's a little sweet to get their protein do this with Chinese dishes with Mandarin oranges in the stir fry broccoli, and veggies, or have a Turkey Meatball recipe in this picky eater blueprint. I have that has, like blueberries folded into the meat and it's just those extra little nudges that'll help them. Get more experimental. Sometimes mama say will they'll, they'll pick out all veggies, and they only the fruit and that's can be really frustrating. The key is they were exposed to the meal in its entirety. You didn't hide the veggies. You didn't take them out because he knew they would like they're exposed. And that exposures really important for familiarity in making these meals that have the components of protein in healthy fats, in veggies in, in the norm. Athey continue to see on their plates and one that's tip that give kids if like all other methods have failed is given dips, or sauces for dunking because I don't know my kids love, finger food play in it and get in it. And so, having healthy options for sauces and dips can help kids, get released rental or at least try something new in, so I have a lot of these tips in meal hacking playbook, which is a free guide that have my website to just make meal prepping easier in healthier includes these kid-friendly tips to that's so awesome. In Mitchell linked on the show notes people can find it. It's so good. And all your recipes that I've ever tried are so good. Also, I think you highlighted some really important points when it comes to getting kids to eat in, especially the idea that like you provide the healthy food. And but also you're not like overly concerned with how much the eat them finishing what's on their plate. But more about the trying in developing this healthy pallet over time. I think that's something that's. It's really hard that I had to kind of break that habit. Because both my family and my husband's family came from this, like you have to finish the food on your plate type mentality or like, and then you can have dessert, which was like the bribe. And with our kids, we've shifted to being more like in our kitchen. There's a division of responsibility and Myers ability that I make sure we have healthy food in the house, or just food in the house. We don't have healthy food, but and that I cook it and your responsibility as as your ages is to listen to your body. No. When you're hungry and eat when you're hungry. And if you truly actually not hungry, and a mule I'm not going to stress or if you don't like the food, and you're gonna pretend you're not hungry. I'm not gonna stress about that because it's one meal, you're not gonna starve in five hours and there's going to be another meal with healthy options. And if you hours that you can choose from, and I think that's just such a mental like a mental load off to not be concerned or neurotic about, like making sure they get enough bites everything at any given time, and especially with kids. I think that balance is like over the long term, they're not gonna ever any meal. Eat a perfect ratio of protein fats. Carbs and get like every veggie they need. But they might like eat a ton of veggies at one meal, and then the next day they just wanna protein overtime at all balances out. And I think that's like what you're doing so important about keeping them in touch with their body and actually listening to it and not force-feeding anything. And as they get older years, probably aren't quite these ages yet, but I've also found getting them involved in the actual cooking and not just like helping them actually cooking was a huge key for us. So our kids know what the breakfast options are they make breakfast everyday on their own, and there's so much more likely to eat it when they made it, but now even the older ones can prepare dinner on their own, which was like a game changer. That was a wonderful dinner house when that started happening. I love that. You're building those building blocks early with your guys, I had to kind of shift back into that when they were with my older ones because I didn't know that when they were little. So you're doing the right way from the starting to love that went to circle back. I think we talked little bit about self care earlier. And you mentioned like those. Practices fill you up that are so food, and the, you know, things like bobble, Bassim assizes are great, but they're also really hard to fit in so can you give some tips for some simple and maybe not so long, self carotenes that can be worked in or how that works for you. Yeah. I love this topic, and I love what you share about not stressing about the food is so not worth the stress. Let's take out all the little tiny things. We don't need to stress about out of our lives, like, bleeds. It will just make things so much easier. But along with that you have five to ten minutes carotenes because we talked about this earlier that it's just it doesn't have to be this long lengthy process. So one of the things I discovered in working with women clients, in my membership is that no one was really looking at self cares a component for health and wellness, like everyone was really focused on getting in their workouts, and planning, healthy breakfast, and dinners training, say no to sweets in less than their sugar intake, an all that stuff. And that's great. But no one was really putting effort to give their soul. That food and fuel. And so I understand, it's it can be something doesn't seem as pressing as everything else in life, but it still very, very important for mental health. So I really promote induce myself created this five ten fifteen brainwork for them to start. And it's really just five minutes of self care, and then ten minutes of activity in fifteen minutes of meal prep like three to four days a week. That's where we kind of we kinda start because it's really easy. Quick thing to follow. So eventually, we increase the time in the repetition, but it's really just uses a base to start get into a groove. So in that five minutes of self care, eventually to ten minutes is just simple. Soul food, way not to get lost in the hustle hustle. And bustle, so for me that means waking up fifteen minutes earlier than everyone else, because that's really the only timing I can get it in during the day. So lately, actually, in a wake-up way earlier than my family, because I've gotten so used to that five. Minute self-care in the morning. But I loved it so much in it's become such a part of me, but that five ten minutes isn't overly ambitious, because we need to make it small enough to stick to so that you can create the habit in. It's in that super small window of time in the morning. I'll do anything that I feel called to do anything that I really need just the distress. Maybe it's like a daily devotional or I'll journal oftentimes for me lately, I'll just brain dump everything that is in my brain just throw it on a piece of paper. So I don't feel so anxious throughout the day it could be sometimes if it's nice. I'll sit outside the patio and just have coffee in peace, which is amazing for your soul. Just to have a Cup of coffee in listen to the birds, but it's just it's just you in it's a day that can completely change your outlook on the day and on your life. In that mindset, piece of just kinda putting your brain at rest is so important for how you show up in the world in how you show for your kids. And how you really view yourself in what you're doing in your life. It's, it's easy not to, to reflect because we are so busy like living in the now, but I've realized specially that year that has been was gone that reflection and that kind of inner peace was a hundred ten percent a game changer for me. So it's really important, even if it's just five ten minutes fit into that self care routine yet, for sure. This episode is brought to you by one of my favorite people. Isa Harare, and her pelvic pain relief system. Let's be real second. Having kids can be tough on your pelvic floor health. And even if you haven't had a child, there are many things that can cause pelvic dysfunction or discomfort if you have ever leaked urine as you laugh, cost cough, sneeze or jump it may be a sign that your poems could use some help. The good news is that these types of problems can be helped, and that is exactly what he says here. In fact, I can say thanks to ISA that after carrying six maybe I can jump on the trampoline by kids or run around to play capture the flag poor sneeze, when they bring home a cold without worrying about plinking, but I know many women who struggle with these activities. 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What your box carries the highest quality organic pastured and grasping meats and their bacon is a favourite with my kids. I usually create our meal plans around our monthly butcher box border by adding tons of fresh veggies, from our local farmer's market, and we've always been really impressed impressed by the quality. So again, make sure to go to butcher box dot com forward slash wellness. Mama to get twenty dollars off your first box plus unlock the mystery special. You also recently had a plug post about how things cravings and emotional, or stress eating is related to one thing, and it kinda ties him without. So can you talk a little bit more about that? And kind of walk us through that blog posts. And how we as moms can get a handle on that, which I think, is something we all struggle with. Yeah. I think we all do struggle with it. It's one of the biggest hurdles a feel like it comes with healthy living is like handling, the stress eatings in cravings and trying to eat cleaner, and it all circles back to that. Mindset, piece I really believe that because cravings are so often either response to emotion, or they're just autopilot habits like opening the baggage it's just eating them without really turning your brain onto think about what you're doing or why you're doing it in so to- women that they have to I identify the why of the craving so maybe it's stress may be UP messing. Maybe it's you're disappointed or your board. And that could really lead into this. Mindless habit. They formed for really no apparent reason. So figuring out that why will really help the strategy to turn your brain on turn that brain chip on force yourself to answer a few questions before you engage in things that you might later be. Like why did I do that? So I talk about, like, maybe it's a pattern interrupt. Maybe it's doing something completely different than you're used to your, your typical Goto routine when it comes to indulging craving or, or mindless eating as also figuring out your wife, you can create like a cue, or redirect to execute that pattern interrupts you, you can get to a place remaking, more mindful choices that are aligned with your goals. So it can really, really easy to say, like, we'll don't have the junk food in the house, or, you know, just just say, no, but I think it's more about like just turning the brain on getting some really Hughes going in really starting to tune into like what do I want in mind, going to be okay with this? Vision. And if you are a believe that I believe, you, you should because it's not about restricting it's just about turning that portion of brain being mindful of the choices that you're making so that you, can you can release show up in the next best way when you're trying to achieve a health or wellness goal. That's so great. And I also wanna talk about the fitness because you mentioned earlier, that's a big priority for you as well. And I knew you in relief, and I know that you maintain an amazing level of fitness like at all times. And I think that's also a struggle for lot of moms. So I love if you could change how you Aballah not, especially after having kids, especially essentially working full-time. What are some practical ways that you get that in, and then maintain your fitness? There is some tricks. I mean, I certainly don't have the time to headed Jim whenever wanted to or go to jog just because his nightside because now there's other people in the picture to care for. And that's okay, because it's changed. And we can still fit in working out with that having. To go somewhere or carve out like an hour for that fitness class. Oftentimes, it's just about really being super insanely resourceful and identifying the opportunities for actively in the changes, I think, as your kids are from babies toddlers to growing up and you can you can do it with them. You can do it while they're doing their own thing. And so it's changed for me, like when my when my little ones were little newborn babies, and they were in those carriers and your constantly bouncing them. I really thought I need to fit in actively here. Not only just so I can feel good about my, my body in stay active in stay strong, but really, like good for my mind because I it's so it's good to, to produce those endorphins and feel great. And so when they were in carriers, I would lunch down the hallway of our living room in bounce them in. I just felt like I'm doing something for me to, and it was just a part of my duty as a mom. But it's. Finding that mix of like okay identified an opportunity here. I'm going to do it. I do a lot of living remorse. Doubts or my kids are napping, or when they're playing because oftentimes get more workout doing these compound routines in the living room, meaning like multiple muscle groups, with zero Queant than I do going to the gym, and doing a warm up getting instruction cooling down, like it's all about getting like in and out for me. So I've been a group fitness instructor in teach bar. I love those workouts. So I just created combos on my own do those in fraction of time than I would at a class. And these are the kind of workouts that offer my membership site because I really do believe that we can bust out, these killer effective workouts intended, twenty minutes, like with or without kids in L, also, tell people that there are ways you can corporate your kids in workouts, you can play games with your kids, you can find treasures going on a hike but hide and seek in, you really kind of, like execute yourself when you're playing these heightened Zeke things it's just a silly. Things that you can multitask, in the time that you have that fit into those core values. So when my kids are taking a bath will do a tricep dips on the tub in it seems like I said it seems really silly. But it's a way that I feel like okay if check the box taking care of my body and billing my strength doing things that are for me, but I'm still also being a mom, and I'm still being fully present in so you can really do, both is just about finding that and getting really creative with the time that you have. Yeah, for sure I think that home component makes it so much more doable. Because you're right. Like how many actually have a couple of extra hours to go to gym every single day and do a very structured workout, but we can all fit in those little things, but we're being kids or cooking dinner, whatever and that makes it doable in those things do count. Like you said, I think that's so important to remember, I'd also like to circle back and talk about being real online. Because like I said that was a struggle for me for so long thinking everyone else had it all figured out. Because that's what it looks like online. And I think you do such a great job of sharing the real actual aspect of your life, and not in the, like HMO brag, like, oh, my houses, perfectly clean, except for this one basket of laundry. But like the actual real life sight of that. But I also know from my own experience, that social media can be cruel in there, sometimes be like backlash from stuff. So I'd love to hear kind of your experience with being vulnerable online. And if you've had any of that, that backlash or what you've learned from sharing that because I would love to see a movement of moms, like everyone listening, being more authentic Lee real on social media and giving each other permission to do that. Oh my gosh. Wouldn't that be amazing? I agree. Let's rally for that because we need it and I learned this very organically, how much we needed it. So it was crazy when my husband was gone. I felt they like deep depths of isolation. Really? And a lot of parenting hurdles in so it really propelled me to get really. Vulnerable insure my struggles in now. It's really just kind of how I remain business just show the real life because it's so important. I remember I, I'm pretty active on Instagram is is in as it was. But I remember one day, just feeling like I mean, I'll get real here. I had totally lost been cool on my kids in little there one in threes. Feel this like at anytime I think you lose your Cooley Phyllis men's guilt, but I'm like they're just babies but I was just my Cup was just so empty. And I remember just sitting on my kitchen, floor tears. I just felt so many raw feelings that I don't think you ever want to feel but you really didn't expect to feel as a mom. You didn't expect a feel like kind of negative feelings. You think it's gonna be all rosy rainbows, like social media kinda protrays it, and I was really not enjoying my days at all. I was just feeling this overwhelming intense guilt. And I felt really lost in the season in so I have desparation because I again felt so isolated. I just word vomited on on inside. Degrom stories. It just a needed to expel that emotion, because I felt like I was losing my mind and I shared how I was struggling, and that I feel like a monster mom and wasn't enjoying the season. I felt like I should in to my surprise. I was flooded with literally hundreds of direct messages within minutes of posting that story. And they were from other women seeing they felt the same way, but they were too scared to share it and the light bulb went off in my head. And I was like, why aren't we talking about this in? It doesn't mean we're not insanely grateful about, you know, these wonderful lives in these kids that we have but feeling these normal type of feelings in holding them in his really, really toxic. And so now I share the great times in life assured the not so great times, because that is real life. And I feel like if we can be open enough to get vulnerable in to not fear being judged. We can all help each other out, and we can be okay with. Not having altogether because that's that is the reality of it. All right. So we can rid ourselves in the expectations in the guilt are giving permission to say what I feel valid in. It's okay. And it's normal in, you know what? Just getting it off. My chest helps in feeling like not alone is important in to just say it all in, in to get out there. You can feel better, and you can show up better for your kids in improve on yourself. So it really surprised me that talking about the things I feared most being judged about. We're actually things that connected be most with a lot of people. And of course, I did receive some negative message, honestly, more way, more positive the negative in, but I feel like I, I had this gift now of a platform, and if I can use it in a way that helps other women, I'm gonna use it in, if I get negative responses because of it. That's okay because I feel like I'm helping more people than I'm offending in if those people do. Maybe don't like my approach to the real life, kind of talk than they, it's they don't have to follow me in. So I just feel really good about kind of giving that voice of like, hey, it's messy. And that's okay. So thrill important to me to keep that up in. I really feel like we should all do that. It will all be better in stronger and be more connected in the season. Yup. I think it's like you said it is a tough thing, but then it's also very freeing and I'm trying to get much better about this as well. Because for a lot of years, I did kind of censor went went on social media just because you wanna put your best foot forward. But I realized over time that it was creating this perception that wasn't completely real, because that's not what life actually looks like all the time. And I'm trying to like, really lean into that into be much more open vulnerable about the stuff, especially the hard stuff, and for me even that's a topic will be tackling soon on the podcast in probably a solo episode. I realized with my kids, especially as they're getting older. You know how all those talks with them about, you know, like sexual assault in, in knowing their boundaries, and making sure that they are safe in that way. And I realized for me like to get general from it, I was saying this to my daughters, and hoping that the that it stuck, but I wasn't showing them because to your point, I have this platform, which is a tremendous gift. And then I hope is helpful and can help people improve their lives in different ways. And I wasn't, you know, sharing those things on this platform that I had that could reach other people in realizing things like one in three women have been a victim of sexual assault, including me, and I've never really talked about it publicly. But instead of just telling my daughter's like it's okay to talk about these things if ever feel uncomfortable. If you've ever had one of these experiences come talk to me, I need to show them and make it. Okay. Like let's have these conversations. Let's get these things out in the open and make it okay to talk about them. So, whether it's the extreme end of things like that, or just day to day struggles of yes, motherhood is hard. And like somebody's actually kinda sucks and days. You're the. End of your rope and like you have the sawtooth like, oh, my gosh. Why was it even a good idea to have kids, this is so hard, and that's real. And so I love that. You do that. And I feel like you are such an inspiration in that way. And I think the more of us who do that. Hopefully, we make it okay to have these conversations so that we can all feel a little bit more real in those moments. Absolutely. It's so important love that you share that. And thank you for sharing that because then it's it's impactful is really really I think it's more impactful than any content that I create. It's just that sense of light connection and the more we share the more rural powered period. Yeah, absolutely. I think you're so good at it. And I can't believe our time is flying by so quickly. But a couple of questions I love to ask toward the end of our time together the first being there's a book or a couple of books that really impacted your life. And if so what they are I just learned how to read last year because I felt like that, that year of having kids like what's a book. I don't even know. But I Don. I don't I don't get to redesign often as I like, but I do have one book that really kind of impacted me and that is present over perfect by Shana renamed his last name. Sneak Newquest in risen really any particular moment in the book, it was overall the concept of man, I don't have to be perfect. My house does not have to be perfect. I don't have to look perfect. I just wanna be present. I wanna remember these times I wanna be I wanna be living this life that I have enjoying the, the things I've been given so that has just really put a profound impact on my life. I loved that one, I haven't ready is that to my list, but I love that president of a perfect. It's even a great title. And lastly is there a piece of advice that you'd like to leave with everybody listening today? I love telling women like just because a bent through I still experience it. We got us up under estimating ourselves underestimate yourself is just the number one reason for. Excuse discontentment in getting stuck and we all go through these trials and tribulations, but the beauty and all that is that we get this amazing gift of personal growth in resiliency, and the better we understand our ability to adapt in overcome in do great things in our lives just within our own little life bubble. The easier those times will be, and the better wise, we create ourselves. And in return, we create for our kids in our families, in love, it Christmas has been such a wonderful episode. He mentioned, some great resources on make sure we linked to them in the show, notes, also to your Instagram. So people can find you connect with you. But thank you for taking time away from your kiddos from your business to share today. This was wonderful. Thank you for having me. So awesome, Katie and things to all of you for listening. And I hope that you will join me again, on the next episode of the wellness mama podcast. If you're enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on I tunes for me doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families can benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time. And thanks as always for listening.

pelvic pain ISA United States Isa Isa Harare Bruno Mars Kris Benson ky-ko Bobby MoMA Katie Krista assault ASEAN founder San
European rover has better chance of discovering life than NASAs Mars 2020

SPACE NEWS POD

10:07 min | 1 year ago

European rover has better chance of discovering life than NASAs Mars 2020

"Hey, space news pod listeners if you wanna show your opinions give feedback or tell me what you're thinking said me, a voice message voice messages, earn easy way for you to send me audio the might end up in a future episode of the space news, pod voice messages are the latest feature from anchor the platform, I used to make this podcast if you have an idea for an episode if you want me to cover something, you can send me a voice message right now from wherever you're listening, just tap. The Lincoln my show notes. And I can't wait to hear from you to or listening to the space news pod. So that means you like podcasts and you probably like music too. So on Spotify, you can listen to all of those things, all your podcasts, and all of your music in one place, and you don't need a premium account. They have a huge catalog of podcasts on every topic including space news pod. You can follow your favorite podcast. He never miss episodes, download episodes into offline and easily share what you're listening to with your friends with Spotify integrations with. Social media platforms like Instagram. So just searched for space news pod on the Spotify. Browse podcasts in the your library tab and follow me. So you never miss an episode of space news pot. Spotify is the world's leading music streaming service. In now it can be your go-to for podcast, too. Hello. And welcome back to the space news pod. A daily podcast about space science and tech, I'm your host will Walden and in twenty twenty three Rovers one from the US want from Europe and one from China will leave earth and depart for the red planet of Mars to look for past in present life. And these Rovers are just going to go to Mars. They have in their mission directorate to bring back samples from the red planet to earth, which is going to be one of the most influential. Botches in landings in science experiments of human history. Parts of Mars directly from the regular of Mars will be returned to the planet earth. So scientists on earth with really sophisticated instruments can study, what's in the ground on Mars. So the Rovers will be sent up in twenty twenty in the land, though do science, and the cash, the, the samples for a return mission for Mars and are from Mars and the return to earth in twenty twenty eight if America in Europe come together and make the mission as success, but a project scientists on the east Rover Exo Mars that will land in twenty twenty one along with the American Chinese Rovers might be worth reconsidering, which samples would actually be the. The best valuable to send back to the scientists waiting on earth. And the scientists said Mars twenty twenty will acquire samples from the surface, where I n ising radiation is likely to have damaged any organic molecules, it is. Excellent Mars with its two meter depth drill in advance organics detection, instrumentation MoMA that has the best chance to make an import discovery regarding the possibility. The Mars may have harbored life in its distant past, if this proves to be the case, perhaps, we may need to rethink where they, we should not think of bringing back. Well selected subsurface samples rather than those collected by Mars twenty twenty in the bars twenty twenty Rover which is a NASA Rover. It has the ability to cash the samples that against, but Exo Mars does not have that capability for a return mission leader on and he goes on to say that requires a complicated. Yup. That weighs allot it would have been impossible to combine our present very capable payload with a sample caching system on the same Rover. In fact, Nasr's twenty twenty Rover his Pete a dear price to include the caching system, and that's compared to curiosities analytical firepower. So what they gave up an analytics and studying the actual surface of the planet Mars. They gained a caching system. So instead of doing the science on Mars itself, what they're doing is putting it away for a little while and they're using that space to harbor though samples, then they're going to return them to earth on the March twenty twenty Rover. And then George Vago goes on to say the point I am trying to make is that bringing back the right samples will make all the difference in this regard, Exo Mars will be super important are the samples collected at depth more interesting and better preserved. We think probably yes, in once we will have investigated this, perhaps it will be time to rethink what samples to bring back to earth. Or I'm gonna take a quick break. A little pause for the cause stick with me because I have more about exa Mars in March twenty twenty right after this. Hi everyone. I wanna let you know, about inker doubt FM as we're I host my podcast in, I find that it's the easiest place to do that. In a gives you everything you need in one place for free, which you can start. Podcasting from your phone, or from your computer. You don't need special crazy equipment to start doing it. You can talk into your phone, you'll need editing equipment that costs thousands of dollars to start a podcast, you can do it from anywhere in when you're done, recording your episode anchored at FM will distribute it. So it can be hard everywhere on Spotify. Apple podcast Google podcasts. Stitcher, every place. Podcasts can be heard, and you can make money with your podcast. It's pretty simple. There's no minimum listenership to start making money with anchor. So if you wanna make a little bit of money while having a cool podcast, while download the crap or go to anchor dot FM to get started so Nasr's curiosity. Rover is traveling around Mars right now. It's getting data. It's doing sampling in, it's doing all of this, in gale crater that Exo Mars. We'll be landing in axiom. Plenum in the Klay deposits are dated at four point one billion years old and curiosity is in the crater where it's only three point six billion years old. So excellent Mars is going to be in a place. It's much older than our curiosity is right now. So therefore it can search for life from past marks from a long time ago. You know. Another almost another billion years older than what curiosity is check in every now and that's the epoch from when Mars is surface was plentiful with liquid water systems. Exit Mars missions will be capable of securing many firsts the oldest site investigated on Mars, the first exploration of the Martian subsurface, the most accurate, geological inorganic composition determination, so far, and the best chance, yet to make bio signature detections on another planet, and the other thing than ex Amar's has going for it is that it has the longer drill. Then March twenty twenty Rover so it can dig down deeper and also get more samples from a longer period of time on the surface of Mars. So March twenty twenty is going to be a very important Rover. Exo Mars is also going to be a very impor-. Portent rover. We're not gonna have a battle about, which one is going to be more important because they're posted both important in their own specific ways. X Omar's, they want to bring stuff back to earth. So scientists on our planet here can actually do science with very, very complicated and technical specifications, on bars. You only have a certain amount of room to have scientific instrumentation and once it's there, that's all you have. And it could not, you know, it might not be the most up to date science stuff, because they build these things years in years in years before the launch, and this technology might be a little bit outdated. By the time the Mars Rover gets the cash of samples back to earth. So it's gonna come back and twenty twenty eight and by twenty twenty eight maybe technology will catch up. Maybe technology will move forward so much that the samples that we. Back, we may be able to find things that we weren't able to find when XL Mars is doing it science up there. So that being said, I'm excited about all these Landers and Rovers on Mars in the coming years. It's twenty twenty know we're launching that thing in twenty twenty so next year it has gone up. So if you like this kind of content mix sure to subscribe to this channel because I do this every single day and I want to say thank you for everybody who has subscribed at thank you to everybody, who's on our patriotic patriot dot com slash space. News podcast, it make this happen. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. Also. Thank you for taking the time out of your day. The spend a here with me on the space news pod on name is will Walden, and I will see you sued.

Spotify Rovers Mars twenty twenty XL Mars Nasr twenty twenty Rover Walden Europe gale crater twenty twenty American Chinese Rovers MoMA George Vago NASA US Landers Apple Amar
Things That Should Scare You More Than Momo

What Next | Daily News and Analysis

13:42 min | 1 year ago

Things That Should Scare You More Than Momo

"The. Invited. Taylor ends from the Atlantic magazine to come into our offices and watch this video with me. Yeah. I saw this before. Mall gonna kill you. So what happens in this video to physically? There's this little girl. She's really cute. She's swaying back and forth. And she's singing this song. Like mama's gonna kill you. If you see hill in the hallway see will kill you, mama. Momon isu- kill you. That's it. This little girl. She looks like she's in a school uniform. She's clutching a stuffed animal, I think it's a great FOX with the big pink bow on it. This is my six year old almost seven year old daughter. That knows all the words to the song because she has seen it on YouTube. And then the mom kind of filming pulls away, and is basically like this is the warning to all parents, tell your children not to listen. That's right. We know that Momo can't hurt you. Right. That's right. I mean, when I even as I cannot help it role is at this point. I have all these crazy messages from parents this week telling me like Nomo is real she actually hacked my child's Facebook page, and it's like, no, she there's that's not even a thing over the last few months Momo has become a kind of internet boogeyman a creepy face spliced into YouTube videos for kids with bulging eyes, a stretched out smile. Pictured a little girl from the ring with exaggerated features parents in some of these videos, avoid dares kids to harm themselves or harm others. They call it the Momo challenge I've seen these types of videos for over a year since it first went viral over a year and a half ago about you publish an article basically saying MoMA was a hoax. Yeah. Well, it's I mean, it's an urban legend might be a better word for it. It's not real. It's like slender man or something. Tillers Momo's hoax because there isn't any evidence that kids are actually following Momo's instructions just a lot of freaked out. Parents it's crazy. How many people just flat out will not leave it or they not believe that. It's a whole not believe that it's a hoax and not believe that. There aren't you know, hundreds of children committing suicide over this like there's just no way to tell them that it's not real. And they'll say like I have sources inside Google. And I'm like, I actually do have sources I I actually talked to YouTube on regular races. It's my entire beat. And I'm telling you, this isn't real. And by the way, here's the Genesis of it, and they don't wanna hear it. But even though the Momo challenge isn't real Taylor says the fear that animates it that is, you know, it's sort of like it's ten pm where your children, you know, what I mean? But it's like, it's mpm. Like, do you know, what your children are watching on YouTube? It's actually like this evil creature. That's trying to get them to. Commit suicide just a stranger dangerous stranger danger. Exactly. And I think it also kind of explains parents fear of these platforms, which actually aren't affair is in very real tangible ways. On today's show. Tillers can explain how this internet phenomenon was born and what it reveals about. What should actually scare us? When we go online. I'm Mary Harris. You're listening to what next stay with us. Can we talk about dinner most of us want to do dinner better? I do then real life happens you work late you run into traffic, you run into some last minute errands. That's why there's gobble gobble is the meal prep delivery service designed for real life. It's easy. It's delicious and it only takes fifteen minutes. Yeah. You heard that? Right. No planning. No shopping. No even prepping the meal, you just unpack the kit. Put it all together and enjoy it gobbles menus include low carb vegetarian gluten and dairy free options. You can get great meals like a Baja shrimp bowl with black beans and keen wa or Moroccan chicken tender, gene with almond apricot Pearl. Couscous delicious. See what a difference gobbles gonna make for your dinner routine. They're offering our listeners a fantastic limited time deal six meals for just thirty six bucks, plus free shipping. That's dinner for two for three nights for just thirty six bucks. Good or special. You are Al gobbled dot com slash next. That's gobble dot com slash what next. Who is Momo described? The sculpture like what it looks like to me was a sculpture created by Japanese artist for this sort of like horror sculpture gallery exhibit in two thousand sixteen the sculpture is this woman's face. That's kind of like it's like you took the corners of her mouth and pulled them up to her is almost it's this like very big grin. She's got bulging kind of like fish is like her eyes are almost coming out of their sockets. And she's got this really strung out like hair like very like wet greasy kind of hair matted to her head. When did when did this statue becomes something bigger? So the sculpture was displayed in this gallery and twenty sixteen people started taking Instagram photos of it. It's a very creepy and disturbing sculpture so people screen shot at those photos and shared it on Reddit, the Reddit creepy, which is a huge bread at where people just share creepy. Images fr. From there. People kind of took the image and ascribed urban legends and creepy stories to it. Has sort of taken this place as the boogeyman on all of these different tech platforms, and it kind of manifest itself in whatever tech platform, you know, kids are kind of most using or there's most fear around, you know. Heston what's up in some countries where that's sort of the prevalent place a lot of kids are spending time. And also, that's where a lot of this like dangerous content seems to be coming from. You know, what's up has been used to spread really terrible viral fake news, that's resulted in a lot of bad things. So, you know, it's also come to fruition on Facebook in countries where Facebook is more the dominant platform that's more where people's identity lives Facebook, what's been YouTube or all three massive platforms that there are genuinely good reasons to fear these platforms. Yeah, what's interesting is that you say this is a hoax, but this idea of boogeyman on YouTube or Facebook, or what's up, it's pointing to real problems. Yeah. Well, so that's what makes it. So tricky, and I would say it's more of a trolls in a hoax in the sense that like it's a real sculpture. It's a real scary thing. I guess it's just the narrative around it is what's the hoax the narrative around it? Like the fact that there is some challenge that kids. They're killing themselves over right? And you're saying that there are probably also videos to yeah. No most placed into them. So this is what makes it so complicated. To is that there are videos with spliced in problematic content. Like, that's something that trolls deal out on YouTube. You'll see like a pep of the pig. Video with some person joking about suicide spliced in the middle or whatever, and that is to mess with people in Faulk with people and fuck with parents and fog with kids, and by the way, like a lot of these, you know, there was a lot of reporting on this last year too. But a lot of these algorithms generated content for YouTube kids and kids content is disturbing in really dark and twisted ways. So, you know, there is the sort of like valid reason to be scared about what your kid is watching on YouTube Momo, I mean Momo is spliced into like people started spicing her into videos and playing on his challenge. Once the idea of the challenge was already a thing. Like, it's something that trolls are doing. There's no actual Momo challenge is like the motivation is the Hoke. Yeah. The motivation like you can point to this. Image and be like, it's real. It's like, yeah. It's a real scary picture, but the narrative around it is fake the narrative that there's some challenge that all of these kids are doing that any children have died as a result of this. Like all of that is just part of the broader sort of urban legend and the hoax around one. What's interesting to me? You said this in your reporting is that local news has really become the driving engine of this story. I looked up an article that's tracking all the local news stories about the Momo challenge Utah which Sacramento tons of local news stores. Also lately, different always some small smattering of reporting one was mostly an interview with a five year old. I just wanna say five year olds are not coherent people to interview, and you cannot trust five year old a five year old will tell you a million things and half of them won't be fantasies. If you interview a five year old are you aware of the MO much and their mother or parent has been talking to them at the moment challenge. Like, they can come up with the whole thing. You cannot trust interviews with five year old. And by the way, none of these five year olds are killing themselves. There's simply no crop rated reports of that. I mean, the sourcing on some of these local news stories is just truly insane. You seem really really upset about this. I it makes me so mad. It's frustrating because like with a situation like Momo, it makes me want to defend YouTube like in some ways, which is crazy, but YouTube is really problematic, and I think it's hard because it's like in one sense you want this bad stuff to be called out. And you want parents to hold these platforms accountable. But instead they're freaking out about some stupid viral Tonj. It's not a real thing. Can you tell me like a real ghost story about the internet that parents should be freaked out? Yup. Parents should be freaked out about like all of the other ways that that that internet is manipulating their children and manipulating them. I mean, just the fact that you know, YouTube algorithms have repeatedly shown that it can radicalize people that it takes. Times as often as one click two clicks to get to you know, extremely racist problematic conspiracy theories misogynist content stuff, that's exposing probably children and also many adults to really terrible beliefs hoaxes like flatter type stuff, and that these these kind of fringe beliefs in an extremist beliefs are becoming more normalized because these platforms are promoting this content, normalizing it like that is actually degrading society. That's the kind of stuff they should be worried about you know, like what is this stuff? That's actually, maybe seemingly like seems to be okay. That my kids are watching. It's not like some bogeyman thing. Like, it's usually like suddenly your child's Nazi because they've been led down some YouTube Robert whole, the algorithm is the real Momo. That's true. I would I would say, yes. The problem is algorithm. Beauty perpetuates that like people will share engage with something because it's extremist and YouTube takes that as a positive sign and shows you more of it or links it to more benign videos, make sense. So why have an? I noticed this. I mean, you spend more time on YouTube, and you will you'll eventually I would say eighty percent of the time be led down a problematic rabbit hole has YouTube done anything right here. Well, I give you credit for responding directly and immediately to the MoMA thing and kind of trying to quell parents fear and say that it's not real I wish that they would come out so strongly against other problematic stuff on there their form. I wish that instead of saying like, you know, yes, we're working with some of the stuff that they would. They would actually try to drive off a lot of the like hate, and racism and sexism, and like really bad stuff that gets promoted on on YouTube an or some of these conspiracy theories that are causing people to act out. I mean, a lot of the like human on pizza gate type stuff proliferates on YouTube YouTube, doesn't, you know, get involved in any of it this week the artist who created the sculpture that is Momo or started Momo can't really assign. It any like causing effects. He destroyed it or said he has destroyed it and made a big public statement that Momo is dead children. Don't worry is that the end of the stone j-, I love it. Because that's like how every horror movies starts is like you through at a doll. And then it comes back. When he said that I was just like, oh my God. This is just going to be like Momo phase two next year. She like comes up from the trash can so more moment to come is what you're thinking. I mean, I think this type of like format that MoMA has followed is only getting more and more aggressive, and I think I it's kind of makes me fear for our future. But I hope everyone can be a little bit more skeptical next time. Taylor ends. Thank you for walking me through the memo challenge. Thank you assure having me. Taylor ends writes about technology for the Atlantic. All right. That's the show. What next is hosted by me, Mary Harris and produced by Mary Wilson, Jason deletion and Anna Martin who true story. Facetime me over the weekend. While we're working on the show ended up having a long conversation with my daughter who is four going on five today Anna sums up the entire exchange. This way five year olds are not coherent people to interview, and you cannot trust a five year old talk to you tomorrow.

YouTube Momo Momo Taylor Tillers Momo Facebook MoMA Atlantic magazine FOX Mary Harris isu Google Instagram Reddit Nomo Facetime Heston Faulk Utah
AP One Minute Headlines Oct 23 2018 05:00 (EDT)

AP Radio News

02:00 min | 2 years ago

AP One Minute Headlines Oct 23 2018 05:00 (EDT)

"Luzi is Ron Don from my is about it. Ooh, somebody. Abbad fun. Somebody. Alexa play hits from Queen. Okay. With Amazon music of all, you need get tens of millions of songs, download the Amazon music app today, Trump and immigration. I'm Ed Donahue with AP news minute as a caravan of migrant moves through Mexico. Headed to the US border President Trump told the crowd in Houston. Immigration laws must change the Democrats, sing. I got a call today. Guy said, you know, we really do need the well. When he sees those people pouring up to got to have all the president said, Democrats are blade killing and hurting innocent Americans, democrat immigration policies, poisonous drugs, and MS thirteen to pour into our country in Las Vegas MoMA President. Barack Obama says, Republicans are dividing the country's addressing the challenges that exist. They, they exploited some of the history that we have in this country of. Racial and ethnic and religious divisions Turkey's president is expected to announce today, details of the country's investigation into the killing of Saudi writer. Jamal kashogi. I'm Ed Donahue. From producer j.j Abrams exer- calling overlord, but thrilling combination of action and horror. And now it's ninety three percent fresh on rotten tomatoes, overlord radar in theaters, and I max November ninth directed by Julius Avery.

president Ed Donahue Trump Amazon Mexico j.j Abrams Barack Obama Ron Don Alexa Julius Avery Guy Luzi Jamal kashogi Las Vegas AP Queen Turkey producer MoMA Houston
Meeting Elizabeth Diller

Monocle 24: Section D

26:31 min | 1 year ago

Meeting Elizabeth Diller

"This is a monocle on design monocle weekly show dedicated to the best in architecture industrial, design, graphics, and fashion. I'm Josh venit. Coming up today in this case, I feel like we touched a nerve a global nerve if you will we sit down for an in depth interview with the fated New York based architect, Elizabeth Diller. We discuss why Dylan nearly became a dentist how her role in the Highline project propelled head wjm, and why Arctic endeavors will always have a place at her practice all that coming up right here on monocle on design on monocle twenty four with me. Josh venit. Do stay tuned. Despite admitting to being exhausted from her latest project, the shed in New York, Elizabeth dinner currently has other projects on the go from the UK to China and Brazil back in the US have practice Dillard's cathedra Renfro greatest hits of included LA's Broden museum and the institute of contemporary art in Boston, not to mention the much aped and adored Highline in Manhattan, Monaco's, America's editor at large Ed Stocker stopped by Elizabeth Diller studio in New York's Chelsea to delve a little deeper into the architects beginnings, I wanna rewind now take it back to the beginning. Not quite, but did you know you wanted to be an architect from young age? Was there any sort of architecture in your family handed? It come about. No, my parents are actually holocaust survivors. We lived in Europe. I was born in Poland. And we immigrated here when I was a kid, and I had a very class upbring. Game. My parents really started from scratch here as laborers, and it's the immigrants story. They just wanted to better life for their kids, and my mom sort of had to career paths plotted out for me, one was being an architect and the other one was dentistry, and between those I actually just sort of put them together identified architecture with root canal, and all the things that I hated, you know, around going to the dentist, but I always had a passion for art. And I wanted to be a filmmaker or multimedia artist and went to reunion and studied there and really my whole life had been making things. So there's some point in my career at could union, I decided to take a class in architecture. And it's sort of drew me. And I don't know what it was. But it wasn't necessarily about coming out of school to be a professional architect at all. It was about the discourse. It was about. A way of thinking. So I was able to channel my serve creative energies into thinking about space and program and conventions of the every day, and then just one thing led to another and we had some opportunities to build ideas in physical space and some permanently. And we just got drawn more into architecture realizing that is possible to actually construct ideas rather than what I had thought before which was intellectually bankrupt. That was the preconception I had so I'm happy today as I sort of our career in our studio has been Morphing all the time, we're taking on bigger and bigger challenges all over the world. But at the same time this independent work continues to happen. They're always two or three independent projects that are self generated that are going on in the studio where we need to raise money, we need to convince people. To do things sometimes by commission, but very often by just the desire to execute something in public space. I mean, tell me about that I feel the studio really does approach everything in such a multi disciplinary way, and you very much have a foot in the arts world, still uneven. You know, you're working designing with prod. I mean, they seem to be a lot going on. Do you think you're different in a way in the fact that you still like to do all these things they're on always, you know, profit making you're still interested in stuff that's just in a way for the greater good or for arts in general, totally. I think that we are different. I think recognized specially as the founding partners in the studio are wired that way, and we will always continue to do independent experiments. One of the most recent that came off is the my long opera on the high line. We decided after having worked on the Highland. So many years and seeing the huge transformation and some for the good in some not for the good lots of gentrification that we really wanted to make kind of creative response like a post occupancy response to it. So we decided to do this performance piece. It had to be an opera and it had to take on this upper attic project and content which is the transformation of the city and the misaligned rhythms of its inhabitants. That was the idea. And so this piece was for one thousand singers that were dispersed all along the mile and a half of the high line with an audience that was basically wandering through promenading through from start to the end and leaning into hear these individual voices with beautiful micro stories about how their lives have changed with the transformation rapid transformation of the city, not necessarily. About that specific site. But generally about gentrification of New York, I was there. It was incredible. I mean, there were so many great little touches even the lights in the caps that the singers will wearing sort of luminated their faces to people who were cleaning windows in the buildings as you walked along the highlight. I mean, we've talked about the Highland, but we haven't really about the high line because you know, this is in many ways sort of project ready catapulted the studio to international fame. All you surprise looking back. Now, just how many other cities around the globe of sort of referenced it and wanted to copier and just really how much of a reaction. It's had one totally surprised. And to I'm thrilled by it. You know, in many cases, I would feel like well, no, that's like I would feel very possessive of a project and vic-. It repeated everywhere I would feel somehow. That it's an appropriate. But in this case, I feel like we touched a nerve a global nerve if you will today in our culture were very fixed or screens, and somehow imagine that public life doesn't matter out in physical space, but it does and the success of the high line in and of itself. The original Highland is proof that people still want to come out into public space and do something as old fashioned as walking and sitting in because after all you can't do much there. You can't really ride a bike. Where you can't bring a dog. You can't throw a frisbee, you basically walk and sit and it's turned out to be such a hit because urbanites don't actually understand the notion of doing nothing, you know. And I think it's like an invention for them. Wow. There's a place where I'm not working or burning calories or you know, being productive. It's a place to. Do nothing. And I think that that spurred has really really caught on up kind of moment in parentheses away from everything seeing New York from a different perspective. But where it really hit that nerve was the sort of desire to be in public space because of privatization of space public space is being eaten up all the time. And it's up to policymakers all over the world to protect public space really for the use of the public. And even if it means rethinking spent infrastructure rather than destroying it. So this is a very sustainable approach to city building is the fact that you starting to projects from London to China to Russia. I'm beyond is that because you're running out of space New York is it because you just want to take the studio overseas and try new places, what's the sort of motivational. Is it the fact that you? You've been so successful these days that you have requests coming in from all corners of the globe. I think it's the latter. You know, the fact that we have done all this work in New York and continuous have MoMA to open later this year. It's really unusual because most architects in their own cities. Don't see that kind of success. Usually, you don't get to do anything in your own city, you get invited. Elsewhere, you build a reputation and then sometime when you're in your eighties out of some kind of feel of guilt or something like that you get invited back to do something in your own city in New York, we have had the incredible fortune. We were sort of beneficiaries in the Bloomberg administration. That was very progressive to do projects like Lincoln centre and the high line and Columbia University. We're doing several projects there and moment and other projects and installations all over. So we have been extremely lucky to be able to transform our own city. And I think that's. What made people pay attention because maybe ten fifteen years ago when we try to get work. Elsewhere it was harder. Because we didn't have the worked back it up. You know, we started rather late because we had an art practice for the first fifteen years. So it helps to have that work behind you. But now we're in a strange time of new nationalism. So it's a little harder to actually get that work. So while easier because we have a reputation it's harder because these various countries are experiencing. A kind of inward focus, less international more empowering, the architects in their own countries, which is, you know, not necessarily a bad thing. But nevertheless, we are building in Rio were starting a project and Budapest right now, we're doing two new projects in London were gonna open to projects in China. And it's going to keep going. I hope. Architect, Elizabeth Diller. There will have more of that interview. Coming up a little later in the show. Stay tuned because next went off to survey her practices latest, building, the shed do come in Monaco's may issue is designed special hit help you. Choose the elements that will make your residents feel like a perfect home in our review of the very best in class in the design industry. We drop into ES brand new colorful headquarters catch some time with busy city build when he mass and hitch a ride on a bow house bus elsewhere issue. We spend a day with Spain's Guardia Seville to make sense of the role of the country's oldest police force. My nationalism is a heated topic. We also the if it's all engines go for let trick militaire. Now survey we the world's most interesting developments from Sydney to hotel him in city. Find out a great recipe. Co living the coaches section. We finally come clean admit that. Sometimes it really is. Okay. Judge a book by its cover, especially if it was created by one of the world's best jacket designers. Also in issue, we meet the entrepreneurs churning out new ideas for Melbourne's, vintage milk vase and stay the night in a neoclassical pilot site Monaco's may issue is on newsstands now. Get your copy today or subscribe, monocle dot com. New York real estate development. Hudson yards have taken a battering from the press of light. But not. So the shed a shell like aunt center in New York, which is located within the same development built on city land on the western flanks of Manhattan. It's a project by Dila skiff Ideo in Renfro that's drawn both praise and criticism since it opened earlier in April Monaco's, add stock took a visit and his his report shed. We'll have it all theater music dance. Film galleries performance space. You name it will be here. Hell to describe Dillard's ca Phidias and Renfro 's newest building the shed it actually brings together three building structures. But conversely, it also drives not to be building tool on not in the conventional sense. Anyway. Although it has its own independent form the shed is also connected to a shimmering residential tower built by the Fum alongside Rockwell group. The tradeoff being able to bring into being the big Apple's newest coach will center next to it. The shed pro pass starts with an eight storey rectangular block that juts out from the highrise before connecting to half down shell like structure. That shell as you might expect is what makes the shed such standout. It's futuristic and refuses to blend in with the temples of luxury living and high end retail that have sprung up around it. It's a shame perhaps that it's located quite so close to Thomas Heatherwick glinting Berlin's climate scopes, have vessel detracting from the impact slightly architecture, though. It's not just the boldness of the structure made of EFT a corrosion resistant plastic that maintains its Bojan curves, thanks to add pumped through its three layers. It's also a feat of engineering from the precision still shaping the frame. That was overseen by Italian chimney lie. To the fact that the structure is set on John wells on tracks that run on the outside of. The building. Meaning that the whole thing can either stay where it is a rollback and nest as everyone who works on the project insists on cooling it close to the sheds permanent rectangular form, and it still being tweet despite opening to the public and the stone of eight. The said then pushes the limits of a building. Because everything about it suggests a freedom of form and flexibility when for the extended it provides a Voss performance space, cool coot, but as nothing is permanently voted down seating arrangements and the state's position can be shifted around. The recent standing dominated soundtrack of America performances will no doubt be very different to be York's zany rival for her sold out may shows late in the summer with promise the first open at concert when the show is nesting windows and blinds designed to be raised off the ground easily in order to allow to seamlessly take place. So we hope anyway. The programming. So far has shown a similar willingness to be flexible overseen by autism director, Alex puts formerly of the UK's, Manchester international festival, and then why sees Park Avenue armory, a current fifty minute before that brings together musicians Steve Reich of oh pot and German painter Gerhard Richter sums it up with view is standing in one room. Looking at the colorful repetitive patterns of large. Rick to works on the wolves before sing is in the center of the room starts before walking around the space. Once that ends the crowd flows into the adjoining gallery and take seats for performance and film. Indoor outdoor seated standing show will more intimate gallery, performance Dillard's and Renfro have helped show a stackable slide -able and very democratic new coach hop for the city. Cool in New York. I'm Ed stock. We have back with second part of the interview with Elizabeth Diller now Monaco's Ed stock started by asking her what it felt like to finally unveiled a shed earlier this month and her thoughts on the criticism. It's from certain circles, it's amazing after eleven years of invention persuasion, and very very hard work that we finally open to the public, and it's such a joyful opening with all these fantastic activities happening in the building. Which is why the whole building was imagined in the first place. Some of the media has been quite negative about Hudson yards, and sort of what it represents full New York. How have you found herring? Reactions like that. So I expected the press it's a very massive development. But it allowed us to have this unique opportunity. To do a true experiment. We had a piece of property that was open on three sides, and we could actually control the fourth and we had some open space next to us. So we could truly exploit space in New York, and the shed sits on sovereign land. It's owned by the city will be protected by the city, and the shed in itself has total free reign. It does not have really anything to do with the commercial development. So while that development is a backdrop, it's exactly the thing that allowed us to be opportunistic and get what we want in terms of property and infrastructure and adjacent property. So we affectively tripled our footprint. None of the actual space of the fixed building or the shed needs to be used in support of anything. It is totally used for cultural public space. I might add that it'll though Hudson ya. Has been referred to fool. The no point one send the new times also said that the shed could be for the other nineteen nine point nine percent. So how does that make you feel that it's being viewed as this democratic institution and have you been happy with the initial cultural programming in the opening first few weeks. Yeah, I think that the shed was always conceived as a democratic welcoming place, and it was meant to build new audiences and not the same standard audience that you would necessarily get to the Brooklyn academy of music or to Lincoln center or to MoMA, and this intention is supported really by the programming. So it's not just the building that feels democratic the programming has been really supportive of all of our efforts. So the the initial programming has been supportive of this Alex puts the artistic director and CEO has envisioned a kind of complex puzzle. Of programming in four dimensions. And there are multiple things happening in the building. At once one of the really great programming ideas came from Steve McQueen, the director of twelve years, a slave and the program is five nights of concerts of the history of African American music and family tree, basically of the roots in seventeenth century coming all the way up to our current time and the artists that are just emerging. So all of the performers were young performers that many people would not know, most of us don't know and were just introduced to them, and they had to pick a lineage back and find their own routes and sing that. So for five nights we heard multiple singers new singers brought to the stage I wanted to this idea of not decidedly not playing it safe. I feel that maybe in the sued does from the blood building to the shed, which is this. You know? Building that really does stand out doesn't blah into surroundings. It's defiant has always been something using let's important that you need to. I guess have a strong sense of identity and not be afraid to take some risks. What most of the projects said, we do our sort of experiments, and it's kind of volving agenda the ler building. For example, we wanted to make a building out of the site that it's on which is a lake. So we wanted to make a building out of water. It's made a thirty five thousand fog nozzles that are basically there's a system that pumps the water from the lake filters. And then shoots it out of these high pressure nozzles, and you come into the structure, which is floating over the leg. And it's like, a cloud, and you get lost in it. And you can't be dependent on vision as the master sense. And you have this white noise sh of the nozzles, and it's a very transporting experience. But we wanted to make this cloud. That's inhabitable. We didn't know how to do it. And so we jumped in and we said we figured out we brought in a lot of smart people around us engineers, and agriculture fog specialists and water treatment specialists and so forth, and we built this thing which was a tremendous success. But along the way we discovered like this thing that we hadn't thought of that lake Lake Michigan cell was actually polluted and needed extra filtration. Otherwise, the entire population of Switzerland would get Lee generis disease. And of course, we figured it out. And we worked with again with smart people to figure out how to filter the water properly, and like most of our projects we sort of jump out of an airplane. And we're not sure we're holding onto a parachute. And on the way down we hope to open it and have a soft landing. So the shed is another example. So our projects are very much propelled by concepts ideas that often require unusual means and out of naievety and of sheer desire, and passion, we will these things into happening. Does it get easier? The more well known in the more international Pete, you have to take risks in a way. I think we have a little bit more street cred than we had when we started. But still each project is a challenge in itself. And we keep looking for the next challenge, which is going to be always a little harder than the last one. I think is just in our nature. Let's focus in to finish on New York City. Is that something if you could wave a magic wand, and you were to do just one more project in New York City. What would it be? Okay. The magic wand. And would be to make all the ground floor lobbies of all the buildings in New York public space one utopian vision. Public space. That's continuous and unstoppable through all of New York. No, I'm basis Atto. Then at all I will try to pull it off. It's been a pleasure. As always speaking to you. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you that was Elizabeth Diller speaking to Monaco's, America's editor at large at stock in New York. With regret. That's all the time. We have on today's show. Don't forget. If you need a little more design minded inspiration. You can subscribe to this show fantastic named system podcast monocle on design Xtra which is available. Each does die. You could also pick up a copy of the latest issue of the magazine, which is available at all. Self-respecting news towns, Monaco dot com. Monico on design was produced by deafening Condie's edited. By the patient Christie Evans. I'm Josh Bennett. Thank you very much for this. I could buy.

Manhattan Elizabeth Diller New York City Dillard Hudson America China Poland Monaco US Josh venit UK Europe editor Renfro London Dylan MoMA New York
"The Art of Mistakes and Miscalculations" - TDS Podcast

The Digital Story

33:41 min | 1 year ago

"The Art of Mistakes and Miscalculations" - TDS Podcast

"<music> this vigil story podcast number seven one <music> august twentieth two thousand nineteen. Today's theme is the art of mistakes and miscalculations. I'm derek story. Mistakes are sometimes in the eye of the beholder off center. Subject may be viewed by one person as a poor composition sent in seen as dynamic by another after visiting the exhibition. Don't talk in the art of mistakes at san francisco museum of modern art. I have five techniques that can be dazzling to some folks in head-scratching to others tune in and see which camp you fall fall into so this was a terrific exhibit at moma and i sort of stumbled on when i was there to see something else and i discovered this exhibit and it really blew my mind. There were many of my favorite photographers there dorothea laying stieglitz and so forth and the show really was taking the concepts that <hes> photographers i had held as rules steadfast rules for so long now of course this was quite a while ago. This was in the early days of photography. <hes> when these rules were established and then following generations of photographers who said <hes> you know things have changed our tools of change our aesthetic aesthetic has changed and maybe those rules are meant to be broken and that's what this was all about and that's what i'm going to talk about in the first story of today's podcast so i wanna start by reading you the opening text to this exhibit at s._f. Moment because i think it frames the conversation i'm very well here. We go in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries proscriptive text by self-proclaimed photography experts proliferated in amateur manuals and periodicals. The next generation saw the rise of photographers who challenged these rules and and strictures pairing modernist images by artists including men ray florence henry and lease at modell with historical documents. This exhibition examines the shifting definitions of good and bad photography while considering how taste evolved during in this transformative period for the medium pretty good stuff <hes> and you know that evolution continue so they're taking <hes> a slice of time right here for this you know evolving away from early twentieth century but you know we're going through it right now and what's so so interesting to me as we go over. These different points is event. What was challenging. Then is still alive live in challenging today in other words as much as things have changed in photography so many things have not so. Let's this will make a lot more sense to you. Once i get into five of these techniques that i call could be wonderful okay and oh oh by the way this show runs at san francisco moma through december first so if you're in the city i highly recommend visiting the museum of modern art anyway in seeing this show in particular. It's well worth your time is a delightful afternoon great place to hang out good food. They're great great coffee. I mean you just you just wanna be there. Okay just want to be all right so let's get in to these five techniques. That could be wonderful wonderful. That could be wonderful all right here we go. I one off framing framing so in the early days of photography tripods were required because of the low sensitivity of the photo medium another who really slow glass or film or whatever it happened to be because the cameras were on a tripod then those compositions they tended to be squared up and you know very realistic and perfect perfect in terms of you know all the lines being perpendicular and all that good stuff as film speeds increased and hand held photography became more common so did composing mistakes and victories for that matter and what i mean by that is is so now now we're holding the camera's not on a tripod so yes sometimes we get things lined up perfectly but sometimes we're holding the camera as were lining things up. We accidentally press the shutter. Sometimes we're just terrible lining things up for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it is we're not trying to line things up so taking the camera off the tripod which was the big move then really lead to some of this off framing framing now my favorite offering image well. I have a number of them but one of my favorites. I should say and you should definitely look this up. I i may go ahead and put it in the show notes. He may hop over there and take a look at it. It's easy to find its by dorothea lying in is called little little man stepping off a cable car and i just love this shot because in the upper left hand corner <hes> she has basically the guys feet and legs and you could see that he's stepping off something and then by the title you know that it's a cable car but it's up in the upper left tang corner so you don't have the rest of his body and you have kind of this is open space up below him which is perfect right because the energy is flowing from the upper for corner down downwards. He needs space the land so to speak and it would be considered a mistake at one point in photography history in at a later date this wonderful dynamic image now. I think what's interesting is that if we stood there are in the museum and by the way this shot is there at the moma if we stood there's museum and asked people as it came buying. What do you think of the shot. I think some people would go. I love the shot. This is really interesting and is fresh in a steinem eq and it has this great energy but i would guarantee you that other people would go well. She missed she mess. I don't know what what happened. Did she moved the camera when she was getting ready to take the picture. Whatever where is the rest of the man. He's not there. All all i can see is his feet so so and i swear you would get plenty of those two so my point being that you know this notion that one person's mistake is another person's success off framing. I think is one of the most interesting and dynamic versions of this <music> conflict or this tension. I should say <hes> in terms of composition all right. Here's another one reflections and <hes> here's <hes> here's kind of the thinking behind this one reflection so shop windows for example can be perplexing for photographers right and and this is something you would have read and one of those early manuals or periodicals. If you shoot straight on you see yourself in the picture yet from an angle the surrounding environment appears in the shot so you know maybe the the street and the cars are you know people walking by all that kind of stuff when you shoot it from an angle so many books recommended that you avoid the situation altogether right because basically unsolvable unsolvable and even if you put a polarize earlier on <hes> that cuts down reflections it may or may not get rid of them all together depending on all all the angles that you're working with here then next generation more adventurous photographers began to integrate these reflections is into their compositions by doing so they're able to show really two realities at once right so there's the reality of you know. What's what's through the window. Let's say someone sipping their coffee in a coffee shop and then a second reality which might be something happening on the street to say that a couple was kissing on the street so you you catch these two things in the person drinking the coffee. Maybe looking the other way which i think ideally that's what i would want in the composition. I would really want the the one reality person not engaged with the second reality not at all and so the person sipping coffee would be looking one way the couple kissing out on the street would be over here on on the different side right and you'd have all of this in one frame happening at once so obviously you can probably figure out. Which can't i fall into here because i i think this is wonderful. This is dynamic and interesting and the fact that you get a two for one <hes> especially for street photography. I think is wonderful and it just cracks me up that there was a time when you know there was no vision so to speak you know concerning those what you could do with reflections and you were just merely trying to get rid of them so that was another one. These are all from the show right. I'm putting my own stint on them but <hes> each of these mistakes were featured at the show and then they have examples of these mistakes of which of course are successes for for many of us all right. Here's the next one motion blur motion blur so the standard advice was to prevent motion blur by you know using a faster film or better lighting allowing you to increase the shutter speed to stop it to prevent it okay so so yeah so if you wanna get rid of okay this one there are times when you do want to get rid of motion blur the time that it bothers me. The most is when i'm photographing people who are speaking the same auditorium in the the light is low and i don't want to use a flash for various reasons in their gesturing a lot in their hand. Has that motion blur okay. That is an instance where i don't want the motion kimbler right because you know those blurry hand is distracting especially if you're you're shooting. Someone's like you know president of the university or something like that. You don't want them having gene a blurry hand so you have to wait until they hold that gesture for a second grabbed the shot then so the hand is a moving because unless you want to jack up the i._s._o. To you know lord knows what but <hes> generally speaking you wait for that that moment so that's an instance where you don't want motion blur however there are times when motion blur is interesting and can be very artistic artists later on discovered that dabbler could actually convey motion in indicate speed so for instance a little bit emotion blur with a a cyclist pedaling by line then suddenly you go wow that feels like he's going fast right. You have that sense of speed that you wouldn't have if you just froze the shot in other words if you shot the cyclist pedaling by with a really fast shutter speed in u. Froze everything you might get a an interesting shot depending on you know the position of everything in the in the frame but you wouldn't have that sense of motion and sometimes you want that sense of motion and that's this were that blur comes into place now what i saw at the show i thought was even more interesting in that motion. Blur was used on portrait's threats sometimes to convey an emotional state in these sometimes were unsettling right because the emotional state usually really was not a happy emotional state so they would have someone <hes> you know with kind of darkish lighting and in maybe their expression was troubled hold and then they would have them moving their head and they would use a slower shutter speed and the camera would record kind of that that movement that motion back and forth and then that really made it feel like that they were distressed or struggling or you know there was something going on and it was interesting how it could convey so much emotion just by adding this blur. I think motion blur is a very interesting technique and it's something that i think that if you if you can master if you can master when you want motion and when you don't and really think about and i would say the cyclists being a great example really thinking about what you want to convey then that's very powerful i mean you are in control of your medium in that situation and then taking it another step to we start to use it to convey other things such such as emotional state that was fascinating to me so i thought motion blur was a great example of something that could be a mistake or really really a a satisfying image another one. This is number four distortion so photographers in the early days were instructed not to position an arm or hand or leg closer to the lands than the other parts of the body because of the distortion that would en- long gate or in large that body part and you know. This is something that i'm still very mindful of today especially with portraits so for instance. If you're photographing a woman with a sleeveless blouse <hes> you do not generally want her to have one shoulder closest to the lands ends because that'll make that arm you know that's closest to the camera look bigger than it really is and she's probably not gonna like that very much unless she is super thin so yeah that's something that i still think about make sure that there's an a hand too close to the lands or an arm or even lake causing that that distortion causing causing that enlargement that we don't want but it was interesting <hes> to look at images where artists also use this to really play with the image and a one-shot that jumps out at me is where it was someone had a man had his legs stretched out an interesting shoes on so the photographer was positioned at the foot and right and then the man was trailing off in the distance there in his feet were a very dominant in the frame because they were closest to the camera and i was looking at the shot and it was very interesting interesting it was dynamic and then they also had the depth of field trail off a little bit as as we went back so his face and the rest of his body wasn't as sharp as the feet that were right there in the foreground in that were also enlarged and so there are some very creative uses uses of this distortion that i thought were fascinating and it's funny because i had fallen into the camp most of the time of where i'm trying to avoid this. It's more like the situation i was talking about earlier for portraits and so forth and it really hasn't dawned on me that i could use this camera affect creatively and this is something now that i'm going to look for in you know in play with a little bit sometimes because i liked some of the shots where where they were using distortion <hes> as part of an engaging composition the fifth one is a lens flare and by the way there are more than five. I'm picking five of my favorites here but the fifth one was lens flare and photographers were cautioned about pointing their lenses in the directions of strong in light sources such as a bright lamp or the sun because it increase the chances of lens flare and of course lens flare does all sorts of things it <hes> decreases contrast sometimes like we'll bounce around within the lands. You know disrupting the composition. Sometimes you just have this overly glo we corner of the frame <hes> because of it you know all sorts of stuff happens so the instructional books are talking about how to prevent lens flare by easing into into by by shading the land so that light is indirectly falling on and i would say also that the other thing that was going on then is at the coatings on the lenses were not nearly as good as the cody on the lenses that we have today and so the effect of lens flare could be even more devastating unintentional lens flare more devastating than what we would experience with today's <hes> coated optics that that being said then art photographers embraced orlands flair because it had this really unpredictable nature to it and <hes> you could have the same shot you have the same composition and just be moving the camera low that plane with lens flare and end up with ten different versions of that shot every one of them different than the one before and after so then suddenly people start playing with lens flare thirty eager to see how it turned out in the film days of course you had to wait until the film went through processing you know before you you found what you had now of of course you know we can look on the back l._c._d. And see ooh. That's kind of cool. I'm going to move a little bit more this way or a little bit more. That way lens flare in some situations i really like i think think it is interesting. My approach to this is that if i'm not doing something artistic or creative if i'm really trying to capture a scene <hes> <hes> as it appears to my eye then i try to avoid lens flare. Try to stay away from it however especially on some portrait's and for some reason for me me on high school senior portraits in particular <hes> i like it. Sometimes i really like a little bit of lens flare coming in from one side and then you you know that that youthful face maybe a pleasant expression that exuberance with it all just kind of really works together and and so when approach might be to shoot it straight without the lense flare you know get get that series and then take off the lens hood or or reposition the subject a little bit and really play with lens flare and shoot another series with it and then i could see offering you know the best of of both versions you know in the final set of images. I think lens flare is fun. It's and i think part of the joy of lens flare is it's unpredictable 'table nature and boy sometimes though when when you hit it you hit it big time so the bottom line here other than these specific techniques says that you know photography is an ever evolving medium and and i really want to caution against following the rules too closely because the rules change the rules change and you know the rules are based on a set of ideas in the static you know all sorts of stuff and if the next generation or if another group of people don't necessarily embrace those principles than the rules make no sense wants to them right. They're gonna why you falling his roles. I don't i don't like those shots anyway. They're boring to me or or whatever it happens to be so. I think that we have to continue to challenge ourselves to keep an open mind to reexamine the rules that were following and maybe to break them every now and then you know just to see what we come up with this show. I thought did a great job of reminding all of us of that. If you don't get at the c. the show i hope that this spot here did the job in terms of getting to think a bit more about the mistakes and miscalculations that <unk> happening photography sometimes wonderful sometimes. They're not but you gotta get in the mix and see what happened. Are you interested in what happens behind the scenes and podcasting well. If you want to know if you wanna know all the ins and outs of what it takes to to create a podcast to publish podcast and you know to promote and hopefully get some advertising revenue from a podcast. I have a workshop online workshop coming up <hes> in october in november of two dates in october november called podcast skills sales and you can sign up for it at the nimble photographer dot com. All you have to do is go to w._w._w. Dot the nimmo photographer dot com click on workshops and both of them will be right there. One is on october twelfth. The other is on november ninth and i am going to take you all through everything that i can think of any way that it takes a producer podcasts something. I know a little bit about all right so if you're fascinated if you're interested if you're thinking about starting your own podcast sign up sign up for this thing join me i guarantee you will learn a lot and you'll you'll have fun as long speaking of podcast. How do you listen to your podcast and this is this kind of came to me. The other day and i created a poll on our inner circle but what i did was i opened it up to everyone says it was open to the public in this poll is titled. How do you listen to your podcast. Then i put the different ways to listen. They're you know apple. Podcast google play music doc overcast spotify. You know pied being i listed a bunch of them there and then inviting people to come over and and say okay i listened to the say this podcast through apple music and then someone else would go. Hey i've been using overcast for years. I still use overcast. That's that's how i listen and you just have to click the box and you can see what everyone else has done and then another fun part is that a lot of people are commenting as well so then you get some comments about how they consume their podcast. I think it's one of those interesting sort of like. I didn't know that like for instance so far no-one has selected google play music for the way that they listen to podcasts and when google announced that they were going to you know start supporting podcasts. I thought serve a big deal. I made sure digital story was there and so far not one person has said that they listen to this a show that way. That's the kind of stuff that you find out if you're interested. I have a link in the show notes. Just click on it. How do you listen to your podcast. Go over participate like i said it's open to everyone. It's kind of fun. I'm going to close it. <hes> this friday and then i'll publish the results alfred stieglitz five random dumps so this was also from the show joe at the san francisco moma and so you know they had some of the stuff that i had talked about earlier but then they also had this packard that had twelve random don't now now twelve as a few too many for me and i liked some of them better than others so i i will alford's list down to five and i do think that these five are interesting and <hes> this is from his photographic topics number seven january nineteen o nine january nineteen o nine when he published these twelve ounce here are five of the twelve right here and they're they're very interesting and of course alfred stieglitz. I believe he married georgia akif or at least they were definitely an item for a long time one of the pioneers ears of modern photography very interesting fellow all right here we go number. One don't believe you must be pictorial. Photographer bad pictorial photography like bad art. Painting is a crime number two. Don't plagiarize if you can help. It can't give you any real pleasure to know yourself akin to a thief. I i'm smiling during some of these the wording being alone. Is you just wonderful right so that was the second one here's the third one don't believe you became an artist. The instant you received a gift kodak on christmas morning is great. Don't believe he became an artist the instant you received a gift kodak on christmas morning <hes>. I know that doesn't apply to any of us but we do know some folks that it applies to right okay. Here's the fourth one don't don't believe that experts are born. They are the results of hard work and not chore words. Were ever written right all right so that was the fourth one here's the fifth one don't go through life with your eyes closed. Even though you may have chosen photography as your vocation the machine may see it for you but it's i is dead your i should furnish it with life but don't believe that all open is c- see seeing needs practice just like photography itself interesting <hes> that one's very interesting to. I'm going to read it again just because don't go through life with your eyes closed. Even though you may have chosen photography as your vocation the machine may see for you but it's i is dead your i should furnish it with life but don't believe that all is c- seen needs practice just dislike photography itself good stuff there. I think that fifth one sums up a lot of things for me. L. and there is the p._s. By the way so he did the twelve and then there's this p._s. Don't believe i claim any originality for the above random remarks okay so that is our friend alfred stieglitz from san francisco museum of modern art and the show photography graffiti art in the state. Thank you so much alford for those words of wisdom. Try lincoln in learning free for thirty days. You know there's been this interesting thing going on for me as an online trainer and for a lot of people who started with lynda dot com back back in the day have many titles with them and then lynda dot com was bought by lincoln learned and then microsoft bought lincoln learning and lincoln learning space ace now contains all the stuff from linda plus. All sorts of additional business oriented training topics so it's very very robust. It is the online training of the future for folks that have been in this ecosystem lynda dot com still around however over over time it will be phased out. All of my stuff is right now on both linked and learning and lynda dot com however linked and learning as the path to the future so i thought okay i'm going to start letting folks know about linked in learning because that just makes more sense and i want people to follow me. I want people to follow the other creatives that are on there and <hes> i think the creative sector lincoln learning needs as much support port as possible because the marketing emphasis right now for lincoln learnings more business less creative so i thought hey let's get you know as many creative takeover there and especially people who follow creative instructors. Let's get them over to linked and learning and <hes> so that those numbers go up so so you can try lincoln learning free for thirty days. I have a tile on all the pages of digital story. Just put that on there saying just click on that and that will take you over to the page where you can start your thirty day free trial. I believe the pricing if you go on and subscribe the pricing scene is the same as it was for lynda dot com you get access to thirteen thousand plus expert led courses and you can watch as many as you want. There's no limit and doesn't a new courses are added each week across business. Tech and creative can watch any time on your computer or phone you can easily access and watch courses from your desktop his top mobile device outs are available for i._o._s. And android some of the courses you can earn a certificate when you complete the course many of the courses have exercise sir size files and quizzes and things like that and if you download the mobile app you can have offline viewing just like you can with net flicks and so you can watch the courses this on lincoln learning without internet connection so you could watch a course y you're traveling from the east coast to the west coast or something like that oh flying over the pond into europe or over to asia so you can download courses and actually get smart while you're traveling those worth taking alexa if you haven't done any online training training for a while and you want to you know increase your chops here. Click on the title is on all the pages of digital story. <hes> checkout linked learning free for thirty days check out my courses for sure capture one pro photos for mac o._s. luminaries on their all sorts of good stuff and all all the other support the creative sector but also hey take a look at the business stuff too and let me know what you think right on a little bit of virtual camera club news for small big thanks to our inner circle members of the folks that help keep the lights on here at the digital story and the nimble photographer ghafur by the way i have a new nimble photographer artists interview <hes> going up here <hes> within the next week so stay tuned for that that is made possible also by inner circle members if you wanna find out more about being an inner circle member and you want support the show and support the endeavors of this photography geography community just click on the tile on all the pages of the digital story are patriot on tile there you know be part of the inner circle and i think our members so much for their support also we have be an h. and amazon tiles on all the pages of the digital story. If you're going to buy some photography equipment something we talk about here if you click their first then go ahead and <hes> find what you want on the sites that helps support the show and also have a new tile on the site for or audio equipment to for those of you that are audio files <hes> musicians and so forth and finally be sure to visit our friends at red river paper for all of your inkjet supply needs. They have everything they have the tutorials they have the paper they have the supplies they have the enthusiasm awesome which i think is very important and they can help you become the artists that you want to be red river paper longest running supporter of the digital story. They have a great facebook page at facebook. Dot com slash red river paper right. It's going to do for me this week. I'm heading off to photoshop world. You're gonna be there and you want to say. Hey the send me a note the contact form on the number of the <unk> for this he would get together for a cup of coffee. I'm going to be looking for all sorts of interesting stuff there. I've got some great stories for next week. Come back and join me in tilden have a great week bye bye now <music>.

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