6 Episode results for "Millennium Seed Bank"
How Do Plants Get Their Freak On? With Dr. Alex Monro
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Save a seven hundred ninety six dollars on average gay your car insurance quote online and under seven seven minutes. That's like one exfoliating sash so visit progressive DOT com today to see how much you could be saving national average annual car insurance in savings by new customer survey to save with progressive in two thousand nineteen welcomes getting curious. I'm Jonathan Bennett. And every week I sit down for a forty minute conversation the brilliant expert to learn all about something that means curious. Today's episode joined by Botanist and Research Leader at the Royal Botanic Gardens. Cue Doctor Alex. It's been Rome where I ask him how you plan to get there. Hey curious this is Jonathan Vanessa. We are with Dr Alex Munro who is a botanist at the Royal Botanic Gardens so oh pitcher were kind of were inland and right. Yeah on the edge of London on the edge of London and we're Q.. Gardens which is is the world's the biggest time for gardens on research institute so it combines natural park like landscape with amazing collections of living plants and then a giant collection contrite a barren plants which for example going to study on. I think I just saw a tree that was from seventeen seventy five. Yeah Yeah. Yeah that's like. That was like the Boston Tea Party in the battle of Bunker Hill not to bring up a sore subject in the United Kingdom. You know but I think that was the same year. Yeah Yeah property like wow. That's old Q- Gardens has really been like a living breathing. Newseum for plants were where people can income view that you can see these big beautiful glass houses. They have like palm trees and I also saw this one glasshouse place it looks like mimics high-altitude. You Know Yeah Yeah. The pump. The Alpine House. How do you know why? Why does it MCI altitude? Yeah because they have to generate colder in the summer. Because it's too hot in the summer for it to Alpine and in the spring likes to come and get some of the early won't for they can kind of plants Flowering Sa- really nice greenhouse because they bring plants Johnson when they come into flower is always full of flowering. Things interest. Love that so when now and then there's also the sea bake thank which that is like so this is like a three hundred Acre like big rolling hilly Lakey like a Space within the seed bank is like not like that now. The State Bank is a volt for storing seat. And it's one of the probably only place in the world where we have A. I think it's ten twenty percent of the world's diversity of plants just a moment. Did you ever see panic room with jody foster. You're in the early two thousands and an christened earn Kristen Stewart. Kristen Stewart it's a classic. It reminds me of panic room but for are Basically so what's the importance of AC- bank like what are the. She's like. A vault with Tennessee. Yeah it gives so much in. The season sees the potential plants. When it's plotted out you can you can then so? That seat is protected and saved in conserved and habitats may be being destroyed by logging Farming or whatever and then in the future Tom. If you want to restore rescue species. They've become incredibly red. which low them? All you could tighten that seed germinates emanates it an implant it back where it came from or any seeds the sea bank or the plans extinct or any of them. Yeah really yeah you should go. That's incredible. Yeah so let now extinct in the wild or buying but yeah. That's that's really incredible. I do you know. We'll have not like plot question 'cause they know that's not your thing but do we know bill the State Bank. Yeah like how long has it been there and two thousand and says the Millennium Seed Bank. It was built to celebrate the MELANIA. Now Millennium is all in context and the title of the Millennium seed. Bank got it. And that's part or of gardens. Okay everything's coming into focus so now you Dr Monroe so like would yours minding your own business in the United Kingdom when you're a little and you realize you wanted to be a scientist on never really wanted to be a scientist. sloughing already wanted to explore ongoing forests locked being forest. None of is obsessed with wildlife on nature insects particular. Actually love windows. Three is the Ganz garden with a plastic bag on my hands and catch bumblebees and keep them in jam jars. which I think is probably rule but we actually did an episode on getting curious called to? How can we be less rude to be so up? I was very routes based okay. You're curious in our. You're getting curious when you were really at all. So how did your life lead you to being because you're at title because we love title and you got got several. You're a doctor. You're a botanist. Also daren't you like another EST- like isn't there like a like Tax are a taxonomic. Yes yeah aren't the two that questioning looking. You're getting credentials remote because you can't say no just say you'll the things end in ace bigamist or whatever. Oh No no in your when your doctor feel usually kind of fierce biologist or later so at the taxonomic taxonomy taxonomy Classify things so we kind of we say what they always identified them but we also describing identify new things. So if you think you've got a new species with with ones who say we think this is new. Then we describe it might friend really likes to name plants a lot will because they're a landmark fat Zia Japonica or something. Yeah what city. That's like something from Japan. Yeah yes japonica. Means Japan lie the some relationship shipped to Japan. Yeah so here is it juniper from Japan juniper sounds a little bit joining juniper is gone I why am I so basic. It sounds of Santa Phantom. We tend to have the to pasta. The name is of binomial genus and species. Suspicious changes like the group of things which we sable relates is to each other until the other things so that's the genus. Wait why is it more related to it. Another thing because free volition. Obviously everything is so. We'll write to each other and losing autism so rates each other obviously way more to each other than we are to grow so cute and funded. Think about that. We're all kind of related we. Oh yeah yeah condemnatory about that but volition as the major assumption behind evolution. which is the thing species so you have one species and then it splits into two species? The process got it. Yeah so taxonomic you had to learn all about all about like the the titles things evident yours is more about like discovering new things breath. Yeah that's my buddy because really WanNa know how you became one. Yeah okay yes under become one. Actually I wanted to be malicious kit to study insects and then when I went to university yeah I thought it's really bad idea to study your favorite subject so I fly allergy because I was an idiot. Am I just being clever but it was very sad now. If you humid you want to study in fact have moments when I think want is I do. It's never too late. You can go back. And it's not a literal well behaved he thinks if you felt like you could very old baby. I think it'd be really if you like. All of a sudden like through all of academia it's heels and we're like like no Dr Munro's GonNa go back and becoming etymologists now but anyway I did and I had this love for forest so that was kind of drive me ratings onto degree in biology college in three that. I did an expedition to Bolivia Amazon which was amazing. We spent two months champion the Amazon Cemented the fact that I wanted to work in tropical forests what was going on in the Bolivian Amazon forest. That so we would collecting trees were doing. It was already remotes unexplored area and it was very rich. In primates. I think is still the richest place in the world for primates with like twelve thirteen species of monkey forest worth Bolivia in relationship to Brazil. Aw next. Brazil hates North Northwest So then South America but it's like on the upper part of that yet Brasilia. Yes Amazon extends across into Bolivia Peru Ecuador Colombia interesting. Love that so you're that for two years like in your early twenties would not two months. We account for Afghans nineteen. Twenty Shit was totally not what was like. Were you aware of like. Did you have to like take any precautions. Like when y'all went there are like how to be careful of like yes we should have for. We relied students excited that collecting climbing up trees. You know kind of sixty foot trees but that nine yeah it was just a really it just the southern the amazing place so i. Your Undergrad was biology. Yeah so Fritz expedition. I kind of go segue into looking at forest Tropical Ecology assaulted world spiced in Manaus for a couple of years whereas the capsule of the of Brazilian state of Amazonas. And then I got really sick and then I had to drop out of that and then I came back to the UK. I spent quality time sick and then I got a job at the natural history. Museum is a Boston based And and then they just went on from that. Wow so then when you started guarded. I saw the coupons about five years ago. That's it give you like a full of yes. I spend coming from the Twentieth Museum as opposed to next and then I came here twenty years. I've been here for five years. That tells you that I'm the baby. Because the botanist is I know would would you look amazing so but so a botanist is somebody who studies plans. So you said he planted in the also studied like to to the classification of them. Yes I've asked the tax detects on posses like I think everything that studying plants in the way study migrate taxonomy say we studied the classification description plants. We exploration adventure supplants as well so. Isn't traveling still a big part of your job. Yeah Yeah so tell me about that. Yeah well sorry for every Five or six months away and a guy exploring saw some of the last five years. I've been doing that for twenty five years. So even when you're at the newseum you're probably from the Natural History Museum to the six hundred dollars. Fine Yeah so you always been like a scientist who's based in London and didn't have a perfect contradiction love for so love the wilderness. Bob Is born in London and grew up in London and we're probably died in London and I'm also London. I love that is unusual because it's not it's not obvious but it seems like a coup gardens. There's a very large scientific community. That's aw very much like you know. Dedicated to like all things. Plants totally so is about three hundred scientists of across the two sites and everyone is totally dedicated fascinated obsessed with will move only do how does how does that community interface with like a daily interaction action or like a outlook aren like sustainability climate. Change like how does you gardens. or how does anyone in any tips on. How like an how scientists are trying to be like like like? What do you do so we can all do well? I'm not sure we're better than anyone else. But we sunny really aware of. It is something that we talk about a locks in in two socially but also something we turn. We've into our work so what we're doing helping address climate change so we do a lot of conservation assessments. We look species in the current distributions. And how it'll be affected by changing climates for example coffee. It's been with the load. Welcome not will be in the will the white populations guy will they be wants out. Habitat can move into is because we're wiping out like parts of forest to grow coffee beans there. No no sorry. We looking to his coffee grows in mountainous areas in Ethiopia and as the climate changes the slots would they grow become too dry and was to move up because he gets warmer. And so what can can I move to the top of a mountain. Say they go nowhere to go and probably close harmony and so that's kind of really practical example but But we kind of look at that for many different plants which may be. Maybe they don't have any known uses but still we were important parts of our global ecosystem breath so when you would go out explain early when you currently got exploring like wha like have you been to like all the continent early fix when I've been to. I've been to Latin America by of been to Australia Africa. I've been African David. That doesn't Count Antioch. Yeah but then the work in China for example in southwest China in the Limestone Plateau. You have yeah what would you do with the plant over. There is amazing so they have this incredible ancien in cost landscape which is limestone been weathered by tropical rains kind of fifty six hundred million years. Incredible like shapes rocks and ready spiky. It's quite difficult for plants to survive on its retry and then really wet and re hall and then cold and so. I've been working on the national family. Which is actually my postal specialty? Shine is the sonic toothbrush. That gives you the same quality and features as high priced brushes for under fifty dollars and replacement. Brush heads for under five this award. Winning toothbrushes led by Oprah magazine People magazine and wired shine delivers confidence from ear to ear and takes care of your entire oral routine so you can have more brush strokes of edge genius shine toothbrushes. Have all the advanced features. You didn't know you needed. I'd like pressure sensing technology that alerts. When you're brushing too hard? 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I don't know if y'all knew that but we just took a really quick break because our illiberal scientists had a little phone cau- which I love the cow real we are. We can't help it that we're just doing like real podcast real world because a lot of time in a studio but right now in your office interest so you look back to getting curious. The doctor outs and route so you would. You would go exploring like in you've been to. We're talking about China now and it's cold in the limestone for some reason nettles ready pretty attracted to limestone especially weathered lines now that all because they never nellie ease yeah so it's a group of about two thousand species of plants in the mouth fifty. The GENERA Everything from small herbst icon of big trees really. Yeah and they have. I don't know what to say. They kind of normally the leaves of like like the nettle. Yeah and they have really small inconspicuous green flowers and they kind of the mice boring group plants. The the nine man I think of often to myself. So what's what's the most interesting thing about nettles interesting about nettles. I think it's the fact that the now you got me now. The me the most interesting stressing thing is the fact. They have incredible female flowers. So the actual female the tiny but incredibly intricate and beautiful and they looked ready specialized but the whole group will the whole family is wind. pollinated and so. I don't understand why they have sub specialized plows. Oh because they don't really did all 'cause I just like passively accepting pollen flying in the air so they should lose sign in my book the So I think that's kind of interesting. Okay what. I'm really glad that you brought up plant sacks and not me because I did want want to specifically ask about how plants reproduce how they do it. How do they look? What are the different types of how many different types of because isn't pollination essentially plant attacks are no clown sacks? Go plants is just so different in different. I mean just like totally non binary in that sense Lulu to put it in a while. Because they don't because they're not saying well he's not your thing we do. We get on tape record. Yeah Yeah Yeah. I've been sitting here this whole time. Sell because you know how like you were saying like they were all related right so yesterday. When I was thinking about this episode I was like I wonder like 'cause email questions I was like? It's like for the plans. Like what is like a daily life in terms of like if they were human like how do they have babies how they reproduce what would they're like little environment be like. How did they learn? How did they decide to do stuff? Could so sexy feels like the first thing to my mind. You know get help. It like chemical. They can a person and I'm still the big paw up and light. Yeah invest a massive amount and sex plants deal. Yeah go tremendous amount. Yeah they invest tremendous amounts and sacked. Yeah I love that if you look if you look at an oak tree at the moment is covered in like thousands hundreds of thousands or more flowers when it has fruits margin how many babies babies yeah he sees it produces so yes. O'hara what are the different types of pollination light camera production so the pollen is like the the semen man of the Peloton when various ways Just reproduce by taking same putting on the Nag. They reproducing lots of the different ways. Okay so sometimes they basically bits of them will fall off Form of sex reproduction. Sometimes the egg vic in the flower will just develop unfertilized into a healthy seat really. Yeah Yeah love that Komen. Who does that so old nettles do that? So you'll be working group. Apples growing caves in southwest. China seems to be a lot of them are. That's how they reproduce. Can you tell the the difference between Reproduce actually he cannot by looking at it you have to take some tissue and you have to basically see what's going on so so is that because like tell me more about that what it was a different case when they reproduce misquoted mixes a sexually you can look at the chromosomes. You can kind of tell other. There's only one is just that there's yeah so the short yet kind of shortcut to doing that is to in a measure the the white of the nucleus and then you can relate that to the size of the Jeanine relate back to their chromosome count so that's used quite a lot. What about like I mean? Obviously like snakes aren't plants that you know how like some named snakes Lizards Geckos can do that though was that. Is that a similar thing like just similar yeah similar yeah and then plus can also hybridize so they do tend to harmonize that really so well. They'll so like Basically a female of species will reproduce if a male of another species zoo. How many people they went five hits in my memory was any better? You never know what's going on up instead of getting curious. You know what I can see that. Yeah but the yeah must be the is not Aref nominee on. I'm that's some busted as well so it's not unique but then there's also like isn't there like bees taking the tall. There's all the different ways that they get the sperm from the from the Mao Pol to the female part of this win as as as mammals as any tons of different different things as tiny little micro insects. What's an example? But because isn't there like like what courses like. Rub Up against something like North Dakota and then they run around the line something. Yeah exactly. Yeah so he's pretty random in a way I mean some plots of Tailored the way that they do it so they try to particular particular species of bird or butterfly. That's what I want to know about you. Tell me about that. So you have lots of the whole group of plants which which like to control who takes the pollen. How did they know I think it's the Obviously Dustin Christ thing about evolution. You don't have to be smart evolved so you know bacteria revolt when there will be mostly not occupying you happy but have seen all thinking go to do this whole. Something's going to happen. So it's it's a process of reciprocal process between the two parties. So you have something punching something so you got something coming in eating the pollen and then for some reason the plant will change and if the Flemish get a bit deeper and so there's less things that can pull the night that long but then he turns out because they less things able to pull on that that plot the ones that can become more specialized because they something that no one else can get and then they'll pull the nights it and that's how they shape can develop. Does that make you. It's like the dumbing birds that have like the cloud longer than than hummingbirds big as long. They become more more way to each other. Except for the Hummingbird goofing like no one else can get the sugar by having these riots flosse after a long beak which is basically humming birds so that's the two sides of the Kind of two hundred vacations for going on evolution thirty and then and then to the plant. It means it's got a guaranteed pollinator. WHO's GonNa go from that individual of that species to another individual? The last species are not going to go from like. Can I tree to a nice easy going to be about useful plum because his pollens. But it's GonNa be wasted can be pretty sure the go-to another individual that same species in the La- pollen too so I said why tying and yes question they are so does one plant have like the both anatomies and yeah so it depends so so. That's the thing you know. Some of go go. Both sexes in the same flouts Kinda affects the amount of bisexual some plants by sexes but each section is in a separate flower that the separate flowers on the same individual. Joe Some things have got his Yes something can be. Both some things can change sex through time this Mahal Group of trees the when the small small they might be female when they become male. Really who the fake Fake families so like a mobry. I have a mobry Jay. My Garden Auden starts out female and then as soon as they got to set size of became mail. How do you know because the flawlessly different totally different so the male flowers that kind of look look look nothing like the female vows and this whole group of trees where this has been studied in some detail kind of makes sense when the trees ready tool if it's wind pollinated it does the time to produce now flowers pollen gets sent long distance on the wind? And when it's small it doesn't is producing the freeze. Maybe the free straightened bird sold in this case that would be so. Did I need to be being told us in such an advantage so then through is The first way of one of the waist you deliver you can deliver the seed so the seat is like I guess the embryo fossil so why did what is this whole evolution thing. She's such a big deal deal so okay so there is the pollination yeah then there is is that is all of the reproduction linked pollination bazars or some other kind in the plant world. That's like not pollination will you have the a sexual ones there's no pollination in in Moss's for example is way more complicated in Moss's and funds and I don't really want to explain that with time. My ferns is a green light. Yeah resorts hardly different. Struts Ada Duet. They can't do it differently for different life stages entrance insurance. That's like another episode of getting like a fern definitely talk to offend person. I can recommend their oldest health. Earns have already cool reproductive system independently working. I think so. Yeah we hope so. Now I want to know about actually think I want to know more about a plant reproductions actions than still a little confused. Now Okay so trees pollens everything Everything's reproducing sexually will be exchanging pollen. So it's like like us will be taking Steven and federalizing an egg. Like a whole group of plants can also the develop they don't have to receive the pollen so that basically it's like having sex of yourself writing wise in another things actually can pull night each of us some in some species the pollen from one flower can utilize allies itself. If you mentioned the sexual you could basically having sex with yourself and you'll producing offspring. I think you're more pan sexual when you're having sex with yourself because by just means that you're like yeah I feel like bisexual doesn't really apply here because really like you're having sex with yourself on your getting doubt everybody everybody because like you'll get down with the other boys that other girls would be down with yourself. I think they're paying more than you know what I'm saying. Everyone we clearly me trump. I also think it's like it's like it's difficult to recruit like totally unfair. But you know I do love to. You know it's human nature to compares. We can understand like what is happening. So because there's trees the sectors unrelated to Orissa tree. I totally get it but like how many different. What kinds of like how? Many what before genus family you mean it was about genes. Yeah Yeah So. How many families of plants is there is about four hundred thousand species vichy's plants on there in about three hundred fifty families so there's four family or above above family ego older? How many orders is a plant? Says there are no idea. I'm guessing like twenty something. Maybe move because water worrying me. I'm all removal and then how many well how many mammals knowing how many categories are things Elliott virus thing or is it like really interesting. Yeah I think I think so I guess for us what we come not so families and the general species on the global amount species of this four hundred thousand species which is fan in the millennium. CBS They have like a tenth of those or so in the thing is like twenty thousand species and here. There's like embiid Abud j the big buildings all the press. One we've got over seven million specimens here in this building and we must have about eighty percents of plant by versity citizen. This in these bills there must be extinct strike. Yeah yeah her show. Yeah Yeah can't even handle it okay. So there's pollination is how they is how were procreating reading. Some plants can either pollinate themselves and create seeds to become their own plants others. Do you know like they pollinate like other types of you've plants in the same species and then there's other ones that can cross hibernate thinkers I'd hybrids of a green big bushy plant that I think a lot of people like you know not thinking about hybrids. Yeah Yeah Yeah. So I think that makes sense 'cause yeast like spuds or something breaks off each. Yeah plus kind of do that as well. So you get bits of route breaking off like 'em criteria plants or branches at cutting Brompton the ground. That's kind of a little bit spotting. I'd say that was it's pretty much thought. Yeah so they thought way like is he said they can flashlights themselves. They can produce without any Asian is that common is that that's pretty common. I mean don't give like five trees in the United States in the United Kingdom. Honey did one of those trees as a holiday itself so you're asking tropical NEDAL specialists them. Why don't Altri? I think a lot of them can on this kind of just this plastic. You know they try different things in different situations. I'm sorry. For example the ones that confess allies themselves they actually put effort into not fertilizing themselves. Because I don't want because it's not doesn't make sense in the longtime right. You know you get the seats in the short term you producing sees whereas institution where he maybe wouldn't have the longtime you're not gonNA come increase you'll you'll diversity diversities reimplement Sexist basically about maintaining diversity. Yeah so okay but actually actually. That was such a gorgeous segue to an expert on. 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She's durable she's breathable. I really do on my casper mattress. Oh really give her a try. We love her. Get one hundred dollars towards select mattresses by visiting Casper Dot com slash curious in using curious at checkout that's casper dot com slash curious code curious terms and conditions apply. Hey what can getting curious this Jonathan Bad as we have Dr Alex Alex Munro so you are a tropical plant specialists who specializes in nettles in Amazon nettles in the world and that does in the world but you really like them as I due redone. Lump Zone Yeah. So what am I other questions. Curious found is like what about plants eat animals. Because isn't there some of those in the end the end. The Ham is on his third that Venus thing Venus beans flytrap. I'm not sure it's in the Amazon. So that the plants the animals tend to be in areas with souls radio ready pool and they want to get the nitrogen. We're the wet soil. So the the ground. Yeah so there's not a lot of nutrients and so they tend to be plants which grow where they want to get a protein From the protein in the end of the shunned forest. I must have some. I'm guessing denies not the most famous place for it southeast. The Southeast Asia's gone in died on the forest. You had the giant pitcher plants in Africa Asia. The pitcher play a North America as well. They are casinos. Yeah you got the. What's that wearing America's going books invokes flooded folks yeah And then basically that's like a plant poisons stuff at the bottom in legal. Yeah it was coming hours is decided much poisonous. It's basically slippery. In the thing falls a conch get out really shiny abusively economic waxy shiny office on a tries to clear out in the end gets exhausted. Drowns and then the liquid enzymes in it which will dissolve is over slowly. What's like the biggest animal plan can eat a whole? No making optimus known just like a little like a Judaica take a mouse now. It could do. I'm guessing could do like very small lizards possibly okay so a large fly or be. Maybe what about that one Hope this is like not not the short excluding I read about it linked to upgrade what that really stinky gigantic flower. Roughly roughly zero with that that there's emails biggest flower but that she does interesting so that's not eating insects eating as dean thinks of rotting meat on. It has the color to me. And it's join the flag be maybe a to fit across and it grows in Southeast Asian trip. Why does everything reading? I think it's Amazonean in Southeast Asia. Is that like a problem. In middle of America we think that like everything in the Amazon and the mice. Incredible Place Just unfortunately not for those things who knew okay. So what are your favorite other than nettles in the Amazon. Think the EPA fine so the plants which grew up up in the branches. The Melia. I'm civil kids on a stunning orchids on this particular family which isn't even actually called the arrowhead switch at the Swiss cheese. Plant email Monster era you probably have a a cool name for it. But it has a large leaf which is kind of very deep indentations glossies growing laws and office plunk into that. That family has tons of amazing species going after find sin in the Amazon. Listen what is We just episode on some of the deportations going on in the Amazon. What has been some plants that are having a hard time with just surviving in the face? Deportation in climate change. That was like what are you can kind of studying down nearly What's what's happening? So we do botanical inventory so normally looking at whilst there rather than not there That's optimistic way to see the Amazon is is one of the least explodes in collected places for plants in the world so we still know very little because you're like helping to figure out what the new things are. Yeah what's that basically there. Yeah tell me about that so so we we do collecting and then we bring the soft back here. We compare it void in reference collections collections. And in that way identify things which which we know a new lease not not nine wins like the last time you Identified like a new funding so I just came from Brazil actually in December I think was a bit of argument amongst officer. Whoever it was knew not what we discovered several things which we think new growing on this limestone blocks which was a tree in the custody apple family? You have custody apple. I don't know I'm not for sure not a plaque for North America and then I yeah I get it in supermarkets. Sometimes it's like a big freak about that big gray green color with lots of segments on the outside and it's a creamy white flesh inside delicious. No I don't think he's ever time. Yeah custard Apple. That sounds like fun contest. Had something so you know what was argument. 'cause like some people like non out like today I think the Before it was new because it has redone usual flowers astonishes. Me Looks Different than they. Kind of think it's something which is already described but just the unusual form of it so they they think is some species which is nine. I'm not well known but nine from a couple of collections About a few hundred miles away I think maybe as a specialist in this family so he kind of. That's the one. That's the thing about exploration is you. You'll very often collecting things that you'll not the expert on so Nettles but I don't spend all my time collecting nettles. I'd like to everything and so when we do expeditions when not necessarily expo identifying but we have the expert expertise here not collections elections and also for many groups are no experts really yet tongues. Yeah for some of these groups of trees in the snow experts. Identify them. Do you think that that 'cause when we think about in history like plants have been so important to like doing is unlike aren't there like isn't Finland from Plan San Growing Melons town's kind have tons of the Mallon's you you wouldn't notice this fungus isn't a fungus implant are no that another one is GonNa be lighted on related WIG vice. It's a fungi who refunding closets are awesome. They answer to plans to green plants grow. Yeah but at least they interact with each other. Yeah the we do as well. We try reply fungi as well. Okay but wait back to Nelson. How many places do nettles left everywhere? We'll the tropical areas and most of the temperate regions like everything from tropics to to cool are all metals. Like kind of like that. Dark greenish color. Is there ever like different colored metals. That's not a bad question now more or less that color but little in summer bag big trays vicious things. Too small tiny little things of leaves a couple of millimeters long the CAPPELLI harmless. Tony Homeless Earth them like like poison ideas to the touch will some really nasty things. But they don't have a chemical who lowell Tie this thing is bad as one in New Zealand which is said to be able to paralyze. Course I have nine Davis is true by Gavin few gets stung by. You'll be in pain for what is done by Nedal mean You brush into it and the net list has of metals designs like hypodermic needles. So when you press them you kind of squeezing the needle and injects liquid into you see. We've completely buried. I believe no God. Yeah tell us more about that whole Latin nine for a night Janice article and whole family school education to commence is to irritate burt and a wide. But it sounds like ERC was late to irk. Someone I really like. You're being very irksome awesome. I Yeah I've heard that law. Sorry the said these needles. I mean this has if you look They look just like NATO like a the end of academic and when you brush inside the mechanical force of you touching the leaf on its resistance injects the contents and have a spoiled with the base of the hair and it gets injected into you and then contain various chemicals which will definitely contain various chemicals which will cozy rotation this thing naturally get in the US in here in Europe. I mean it's not pleasant wasn't online kind of not that big a deal. It goes off to a half outside but in Asia in Australia and New Zealand. There are some Wichai. You'll be in pain and for weeks from getting stung interesting. Then it'll have the has the properties Spread around the family. Howard's Netto relate late to like what like what else pop with Nedal like? Is it important like ingredient in anything I have to say. I am fascinated by them but they don't really have anything that's kind of life changing or well changing that just kind of interesting in right in the middle KUNA now. How exactly and they do lots of cool things and and they were studying conserving and protecting or the having earned nettles like becoming becoming like kind of like? Are they getting sad anywhere because of climate change. Yeah there's a whole couple of groups which live in very deep shade in kind of very wet in specific undisturbed environments and they suffer law from deforestation. When you open up the campaign against Houghton dry climate change to some extent as well as far as drawing now and because these things are just not used to giving moisture? How does that work like in deforestation if you like? Were you know like when deforestation happens like like a rainforest has like a very dense like multi layers of you know Breen Tyson. Yeah and so when when it comes in to get cleared because a lot of times it's getting cleared out for farmland right. Yeah I mean he's generally pretty bad farmlands the whole deforestation. The Amazon is is not it is completely crazy because the amazing thing about Amazon is currently rich forest and I'm big tool trees. Beautiful lingerie diverse suppose slowed wildlife. And it's a big. Juggling Act is going on this wife. A thin layer of soil and organic matter and in many places and so it juggles was the nutrients as nutrient cycling is really fast. And that's how things managed to grow when you look at this as an outsider. We've no understanding of how how things work you you think. Wow this must be really good These massive trees on that. But what will they do. They cut down the trees and they burn the land so the soul is gone the small amount of Seoul the whole kind of magical trick of recycling and keeping mistiming these nutrients moving. You've just destroyed it and then you just stopped with his really already olds Heidi weathered soils so what's nutrient cycling. So nutrient cycling is the White said supplants get there. You know they go out and hunt some cash things. Apart from the things by about as plants get the the sugar they competent they get from carbon dioxide in the air and they get some of the notch in that way as well they still need nutrients minerals. That's done free That harnessed the soil and then plant grows leave. We started fall off and insurance in that dead material then decompose schedule bump bacteria fungi. And what the ways back into the soil to be reabsorbed. That's the whole like corn getting planted one year and then soybeans the accident because they like put together. Yeah silence each other whatever. Yeah and in Europe like we have. We have the frost slight the freezing in the winter. which and liberates lots of minerals in the soil buysc Chrysler Pulse of neutrons in the tropics? Done half that you know you don't have a freezing. So all your nutrients have to be conserved. Is that you all the time slacking them. Yeah he can't really afford to just shot. CHARLEENA white and so plants have the ecosystem and the kind of not individual species but the whole system has is ask cycling things in a very dynamic way so those nutrients caps basically implying replay as much as possible in Europe. We don't have to do that because we have frost muscles much deeper and the Mnuchin rage but in the tropics when European films. I suppose came to the tropics. They Sylvia's lush forests and they assume that they were ready. Rich soil so cutting down. They'll grow Mazlan and then you grow up the festive crop of maize and and you're scratching your head thinking why why is this. What went Rahman's because of the way that they that they do it so deforestation in the Amazon is not brady suited agriculture? So right so he said the key things when you grow crops you basically take those nutrients insurance which ended up in the seats. Will the fruit of your eating. I knew tighten them away so they exit the system and that was a food. Yeah and then they exploded. Wherever so that? That's kind of attorney. Difference what happens in the system PRA was being cycled. And when you send you just taking nutrients out over time oversee you kind of you you deplete the system client quite quickly so when we were talking about sugar and how good their sugar. Isn't there something about like chlorophyll sugar yet knowing Chagos chlorophyll is a Is the Is chemical already. The the absorbed energy helps absorb the energy captured energy and sunlight's and then it gets really complicated or complex kind of set of reactions. That sugar is passed on converted into into the sugars. The taunts us so but chlorophyll does has to do with like okay. Because I don't know if you remember this movie with Adam Sandler and Billy Madison honey. He's in the science class and he's like chlorophyll more like bore Phil and I feel like it gave chlorophyll bad name so like what the fuck is chlorophyll deal. As I said it's the chemical is able to capture help help capture because it's a really complex system the chlorophyll is the is like a pigments. Kellyanne links yeah that'll have chlorophyll old all green plants. We see Clarkson his green because it's reflecting green light so this absorbing the green color but it's absolving The rest assigned to so much right and not my already mined the main but that's the amazing chemical yen enables you to harness slanting and and sunlight. So why when they deeply. If you're if you're clearing away I wonder why they were burning it first. 'cause we everything everything without thinking so Albatros what we do in how we die. Farming it for you in your evolved in Europe to the conditions in Europe and sustainable in many parts of Europe but it becomes a cultural thing and then you go somewhere else and it's part of your culture into rice. Castelo grow sweetcorn sweetcorn maize. So you go to another part of the world and you soul of impose this totally ill-suited approach to doing things okay and it doesn't work it doesn't work you have to get fertilizes and you have to keep hearing more mole forest. I'll Yeah Robin Stop and think. Why isn't it working taking? What could we do that works on none of that? We just continue talking away from Catalan landis suited for one. Isn't that like all corporate. It's like money it's like. Yeah like money also total lack of imagination and thought you know you just have to sit back and think about it. I mean you'd probably make much more money not doing that. I I often see Castle Thomason in Amazon. And they're doing it because it's a high status location. But they're not making much money so when you're talking about the Amazon not really being well suited for like a agriculture because of the nutrients out works like will so. How does Europe have a deeper soil but like the Amazons is more like just like you know Europe is like colder has like the whole frost thing? Yes associate replenished much. More may be moved anyway because they younger the Amazon was a quiet which means that the water flang freedom for much longer periods. And I've been losing you lose some nutrients in that way. Not the Amazon. Some of the has good soil. But uh it doesn't which is why when you clear forest newstalk rain across the habit for eighteen months or something and then you have to solve thinking about what else was to do with our side so again. nosing expertise can't help section. No no I should not now does he that another question I. I'm talking about the process in Europe like everywhere then. US A- well yes yeah prospect. Because it isn't like kind of like hibernate like they just kind of like yeah and then like the cold wake them up like what's that whole deal so the states have different mechanisms for waking up and different triggers. Sometimes it could be a frost if they wanna be germinating seen as the winter starts or it could be they wait for heat in the soil day length or fire. Some seats seeds recrossed fire to Gemini. It's my needs to be digested possibility of an animal. ooh What do that so I'm a few things it's either. I like mushrooms. Dorado brought to poop or something. No it's fun. Guess I could not in this kind of things. There's needs to be swallowed and passed out in poop and then that Germany from what I like. The poppy wasn't that from like from like isn't it. Looks like it's like triggered from like banging on it or something. I decided that undying on DAB. That's okay so great so germination nettles chlorophyll. It is not until so. This is the part in our recording. where it's like? Maybe your Amazon expert on Nettles and I didn't ask you anything about that and so just getting. Well what do you want. What do people wanting to know? It's like Yogi. has its toward the end of our recording. Like what do you think we should know about. I mean I thought it was a really interesting. When you're talking about the lack of imagination on figuring out how to kind of deal at the sustainability side? I think I'm botanist right. I'm not here to give Liesl tell anyone about economic development will arrest of it but I think he's pretty clear tongue we're like thousands of potential food crops and fruit crops outlet growing in the wild. We don't use for cultural reasons mainly and we could just use everything nothing in a lot of a lot more mentioned nation and it would be more sustainable probably economically productive and easy having said that. That really isn't my two main. I think the message I would like to get across from minded main is there are a lot of species of this four hundred thousand species of plant. Just imagine that that's a law. Each one of its own unique evolutionary history. Doing it signed thing and having some kind of specialization and the About ten percents of votes remain undiscovered. Hope it's a whole bits of Amazon. Never been explored explored botanically. So we was that is like a big big gaps on the map not just in the arms and other places as well. So there's still a little big skype for exploration ration- describing new species. We're kind of trying to keep up with destruction. We still we still trying to describe everything that's there is a school gets destroyed as is getting destroyed offer. It got destroyed one in some cases. Okay wait I normal. So when's the last time we discovered a new Nedal last year we described a new on from in beverly yet. We described some. We deal because so when you find one when you're exploring and then you bring it back because I do guys rental. DNA tests on the Nedal to make sure that it sometimes if it it looks very similar to something else when we're not quite sure we would is quite expensive to do DNA tests and We that have access for that but we do if something. We're not sure. Yeah we definitely do that. Do you ever like Compare like the toxins in milic. Irritating Chemicals Jillian winds have like different ones. I should do I kick myself sometimes now. I'm sure someone must be doing it. I've never I've never kind of got into that side of I'm still trying to get on top of describing everything and identifying all nine what it is in how it should be arranged in vacation. Do you ever get together like other fun. Little botanist who specialized in Nettles Lake with them like once a year or something. This is about three of us us really. There's three nettle expert Site site six racism retired in the seventies ones in these eighty s in in the seventies in this myself in this About maybe Fremaux so that often but we all know who we are. y'All if you're looking for some job tames it. Sounds like we need Ezra's up in here you know what I'm saying. Thank you so much pleasure. I had so much fun getting digs for having really appreciate that Christ's thank you. You've been listening to getting curious. Meets on my guest this week was Dr Alex. Munro you'll find links to work episode description of whatever you're listening to the show. Our theme music is free by Quin. Thank you so much for letting us day if you enjoyed. Our show introduced a friend and show them how to subscribe lease followers on Instagram and twitter twitter accurate the team. Yeah and we are officially on twitter yaws or social to run a curated by Emily Boston getting curious produced by me Julie. Korea Ray Ellis Chelsea Jacobsohn. Dan called Anderson and also produces the time. Let me just a minute hey.
Banking on Seed Vaults
"Today's episode is brought to you by the China brand a premium disposable tableware brand. That's all about celebrating moments of togetherness. Have you been connecting with family and friends in ways like never before the China brand provides durable trusted products that let you enjoy every moment of your get togethers, traditional or not. Plates bowls cups cutlery to go coffee cups. They've got you covered disposable means easy cleanup and uninterrupted connections with family and friends. China products are available wherever you buy your groceries including delivery or pick up. Why is it that we assume that technology and the Internet is just for White Dude? The Internet would be nothing with the contributions of women communities of color and other marginalized people get those same contributions. Go overlooked at raised until now. On my new podcast there are no girls. On the Internet, we're building monuments. All the ways that marginalized people have been using on the Internet to change the game since the very beginning. Listen to their inaugurals on the Internet on the iheartradio, APP, apple, podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. NEW EPISODES! Every Tuesday. Hello, and welcome to say reproduction if I heart radio I'm. And I'm Laurin Vogel Bomb and today we're talking about seed, banks or volts. Seed faults yeah. I'm into it. And this was inspired by recent episode, Lauren and I. NERD it out. I think as peaches for our love of gene banks, and after that we heard from a listener named Rene who works for the National Plant Germplasm System at the National Laboratory for Genetic Resources Preservation in Fort Collins very cool. Yeah, oh. Yes, I, I I love hearing from all humans, but when science humans. It's. It's perhaps particularly exciting because I'm like Oh man. A if it's not hate mail then we're vaguely doing our jobs. and. And be Yeah, yeah, I don't know I love it. When the science humans are interested in the cultural side and vice versa makes me happy. Yeah, yeah, and Rene did say. whenever? The the beautiful day when this pandemic is over, you can do tours. Cool yeah, so yeah, that's so awesome and definitely one of the that one day. Yeah? All right yes, and there there are quite a few see banks around the world. I'm sure a lot of do tours, so maybe where you are, they're still open. and seeping. Do come up a lot of our episodes so big topic big important topic when it comes to food, it certainly is which brings us to our question. Seed Banks. What are they? Well a seed bank is a place where seeds are kind of scientifically Tupperware for study or or other use using more words than that. type of bio repository where the seeds of plants are cryogenically frozen to maintain seed viability, like you could grow at later thus both preserving a genetic record of the evolution and the diversity of particular plants that humans use. And also preserving literally preserving those seeds, so that they could be revived to grow a plant in the future and. That brings us to a sub question which is. How. How. Well cryogenic freezing it is a process where you reduce the moisture in a fresh sample of a living thing, and then store it at a cold temperature. If you do it right and maintain that low temperature, you can later rewarm and rehydrate the sample, and in the case of seeds literally bring back to life or bring them back to the potential for life, which they have, yes like like you can germinate and grow a plant from seeds treated like this and the moisture staying in the low temperature. Thing are both key like a like you know what happens at foods when you stick them in the freezer how they can get like mushy sometimes when you warm back up, that's because water expands as it freezes. You know and it can burst cell walls. which you don't want if you want the thing to live again, so low moisture is good, and the low temperatures help prevent some chemical reactions from happening like know how a sesame seeds sunflower seeds that you forgot in the back of your cupboard. Taste off after a while. Yeah that's because fats degrade over time especially at warmer temperatures. And both low moisture in low temperature help prevent microbes from eating the samples. I'm simplifying, but that is basically why cryogenics helps second sub question. We have a second sub question are your second question? And it is. Why. Well a historically speaking, it's just interesting to see what plants have been like and how they've developed, but more practically, and the reason why seed banks exist really is that as farmers and researchers develop crops that have desirable traits for a particular time in place you know the the ability to grow in dryer or wetter conditions, or in a certain type of soil, or to resist some specific kind of Pester, pathogen, or for certain flavors or or I structural integrity so that you can you know ship the produce? Is. Whenever you do that, you're you're honing the genes of that plant, which is great for for the purpose that it's being bred for. Someone in the future might WanNa grow that planted different soil, condition, or with different flavors or for canning instead of shipping. Or maybe maybe home for those purposes turns out to make it vulnerable to new pests or pathogens that come around down the line. So having a record of a genetic strain, end of different holdings of that strain for other purposes on the farm, next store or across the world, it becomes extremely valuable. Because it lets you reintroduce genes that you have brought out of your strain. And this is especially important, an invaluable in these modern times for a couple of different reasons. First and perhaps most presently, because of the way that big commercial agriculture influenced by globalization and the industrial revolution. Changed the way we grew our crops. you know we we went from? Every farmer doing what worked best for them on a fairly small scale to these huge plantations where it's like you're, you're thinking of it like a like a factory The the farm becomes a factory where it's the most profitable to produce one type of one thing, and to produce the most of it that you can as reliably as you can and. And that's called monocropping, and it's great in that it helps you feed the plan. It's continually growing population especially when you're talking about staples like rice and wheat and corn, but it's also problematic for a bunch of reasons it tends to be less environmentally friendly because growing a bunch of different things together actually helps with soil, quality and pest control. But more directly pertinent to our conversation today. You've honed this plant down to one strain, and if you're a big enough producer, you're growing just this one strain all over the place and edging out your competitors and buying out other farms, and using their land to grow your strain to the point that other strains and that valuable genetic material that they contain can be lost, and this can happen for non capitalism related purposes well sometimes, this one strain is valuable to to too many. Many people just because of the wildly high yield that it produces under a range of conditions, but at any rate it's in the long run bad for all of us because like if one of those new pests or say a global change in climate crops up, it can ruin this crop, and it's bad for humanity like in that. That crop is part of our food supply, and it's important that we're able to keep eating food. It's the thing that we both enjoy and kind of need to do And it can be a really big problem. because to feed our growing population We may need to grow. In the next thirty years fifty percent, more food, animal, feed and biofuel than we currently do in order to support. Humanity on this planet. And we're not even truly supporting ourselves today. over one hundred million people worldwide are severely food insecure to say nothing of the millions and millions more who are food insecure at at less dire levels. And those are some pretty big numbers. Yeah so it's really cool. The seed banks preserve the genetic diversity of plants. In conclusion. Yes, that is still versions. And I should say here. That's not the only way to preserve genetic diversity and not all plants create seeds or or seeds that are amenable to this type of storage and there are all kinds of other ways to to preserve this stuff. Botanical Gardens collections of tissue samples collections of DNA and one of the downsides of see banks in particular is because the expression of genes in a growing plant depends on the environment. That plant is raised in Just preserving old seeds doesn't necessarily mean that we'll be able to get them to grow in strange new environments but. In general seed banks are just really good at what they do, and so they constitute about ninety percent of these types of conservation efforts around the world as of today. And that is a good segue into our number section. Yes, this from Nineteen Seventy two through twenty ten seven point, four million seed samples have been preserved in about one, thousand, seven, hundred and fifty seed banks globally. Of those samples about one point five to two million are thought to be unique. Oh unique. According to the Millennium seed bank one in five plants. He's he's faces extinction, which is another? Just kind of adding on why this is important yeah. And since the nineteen hundreds over ninety percent of fruit and vegetable, varieties, previously grown, have been lost, have gone extinct just for example in eighteen hundreds American apple farmers were growing some seven thousand one hundred varieties of apples and today. Only three hundred. Of those have survived extinction. Hoof. Yeah Yeah and we are a food show, and and a lot of the seeds preserved at these banks aren't necessarily food so there about two hundred and fifty thousand known plant species in the world, and about two hundred of those are cultivated for food but but among those there are hundreds of thousands of millions of varieties of these different things and so most of what is preserved in seed banks are food crops. There's a others that are animal, feed, or for biofuel, or or that are otherwise related to. We do like a look like wood for timber for construction and any other number of things but. A great number of them are are food plants. Yes, yes? And surprisingly long history of the. Yeah, yes, and we will get into that right after we get back from a quick break forward sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by starbucks and specifically by starbucks coffee with Golden Turmeric. We are both big fans of coffee. Aren't we Lauren Oh? Yes, absolutely, it certainly is what drives most of my life, but. But certainly this podcast, and now thanks to starbucks coffee with golden tumor. Eric, you can get the taste. You love blended with tumor, Ginger and cinnamon Yeah, all those good. A warm earthy flavors go so well with coffee. Get more from the Cup you love. Learn more about starbucks. Coffee with Golden Turmeric by visiting at home dot. starbucks DOT com slash more. This. Episode is brought to you by the China brand China is a premium disposable tableware brand. That's all about celebrating moments of togetherness. During these covid times I have been getting together with some friends they they've got backyard, and so my remain I have been going over for socially distanced dinner and a movie nights. They've set up a projector out back and yes. Disposable tableware has helped us do this safely and have a lot of fun while doing it. Yes, I have a friend who recently had. Had a barbecue, and he drew circles in chalk, every six feet, and people just showed up, but their own food and drinks and chatted, and it was so beautiful and lovely to have the China brand provides durable trusted products that let you enjoy every moment of your get togethers, traditional, or not cost quite products can work for any gathering, cut crystal plates and cups. Make, things, a little, extra, special and Comfort Cup hot cups to take coffee on your morning walks. Disposable tableware keeps things simple and makes cleanup easy. China products are available wherever you buy your groceries including delivery our pickup. Amer back. Thank you sponsor. Yes, thank you. So! By most accounts. The oldest recognised seed bank in the world is the Batalov Institute of Plant Industry, and it dates back to eighteen ninety four out of Saint Petersburg Russia and it was the brainchild of biologist Nikolai Vavilov. So he was a plant breeder, and because of that probably other things, he understood the importance of crop diversity, and he went on to map eight centers of crop diversity, which was really fascinating to read, but not specifically related to this. However you check it out. It Exist And Twenty. Six favalora wrote the centers of origin of cultivated plants. However. Bev came from wealth, and he wasn't exactly a friend of the Communist Party, and in one, thousand, nine, hundred forty, he was arrested and hit with treason and espionage charges. Yeah a really really tragic story, amazing thinker within all of this discussion about diversity of of crops, but A didn't didn't turn out so great for him. For eleven months he was tortured and interrogated when his trial finally arrived, he was found guilty in five minutes and sentenced to death by firing squad that later was changed to twenty years in prison, but avalon died of starvation within two years. and just the other side note about this place during World War Two researchers protected. The sees the seeds at the Vavilov Institute of plant industry from rats with, rods. And did not use them to feed thousands of starving soldiers. They protected the scene. It's they kept it up. Yeah, yeah. The idea of seed banks is way older than that, though at least going back to the sixteenth century, and probably even before of that, some people are you could. Include Gardens. Sharing cells in this whole conversation. Back Yeah two three thousand years ago to ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia so. Depending on where you live on that school of the hot. during the sixteenth, century, botanical gardens served as areas of academic study specifically for Medicinal Plants One of the first was the University of Pisa in Fifteen, forty, three and other Italian universities followed suit. Pretty soon after that. With colonization explores bring back new cross. We've talked about that all the time. For these gardens, not only were these plants used for study, but they were foundational for growing globalization of trade for products like chocolate and coffee. This is also when researchers and rower started experimenting with breeding crops to produce desirable traits are. I guess experimenting more in the like scientific way that we think of it. Right Oh this keys to our good see if we can see if we put them out there and if something good happens, yeah, of course of course, farmers had been doing that for literally ever yes, yes. In Eighteen fifty-eight Missouri Botanical Garden was established one of the First Botanical Gardens in the United States for colonists coming to the new world, see preservation was a top priority. Thomas Jefferson once said the greatest service which can be rendered to any country is to add a useful plant to its culture. That whole dude gosh that whole dude. During the civil war in eighteen, sixty two you, Congress established the Department of Agriculture for the purpose of gathering quote, new and valuable seeds and plants, and to distribute them among agriculturalist in eighteen, Ninety, eight, the USDA put into place, the Office of foreign seed and plant introduction. And twenty million packages were sent out a year to farmers in the nineteen forties, regional seed banks were established across the US focusing on specific crops like corn or potatoes, a decade later, a sort of national reserve of seeds was established in Fort Collins Colorado the history of seed banking starts in earnest in the nineteen sixties when governments, NGOs private and international organizations started investing heavily in conserving plant diversity with a particular focus on agricultural crops. And this this is what's called the Green Revolution in leading leading up to it. Of course, you had a lot of work in a in early like genetics that was like. Oh, genes are thing cool but specifically what's going on here? Is that by the late nineteen fifties? Researchers were looking at the growth of the global population along with the distribution of wealth among that population you know the the continued stratification of the very wealthy from the very poor with the population, just exploding land was becoming more scarce and therefore more expensive. And by the nineteen forties at end and up through the nineteen fifties. Researchers were increasingly aware, and and and warning that famine was going to kill hundreds of millions of people in developing areas of the world over the next two or three decades alone, because basically the the world had gotten to a point where the companies in the nation's the could afford to create solutions to famine. Didn't have the monetary or intellectual like like research science, incentive. To do so. And so on the whole they weren't. It's not to say that none of them were there. There was some early work by like the Rockefeller. Foundation, for example that was that was doing some out there, but but based partially on that a few international organizations were founded to help drive the creation of those solutions, and furthermore to incentivize them among among the wealthier nations and companies that. You know could could stand to to to profit from them or early research was in those grain, staples, corn, wheat, and rice, and a lot of work was put into creating these crop strains that could produce more food on less land. And it worked which is. as populations. Over the next few decades, cereal staple production tripled. With only increase in land use of thirty percent so. and that meant that that? Despite these growing populations, food, prices and hunger decreased. But but also encouraged ever larger use ever fewer strains of some of these crops. Right? The National Academy of Sciences compiled a report in Nineteen seventy-two about the vulnerability of US crops, and it found that seventy percent of the corn crop for example came from six varieties of corn. A study conducted in nineteen eighty-three found that since nineteen three as reported by the New Yorker quote, readily available varieties of cabbage dropped from five hundred and forty four to twenty eight carats, dropped from two hundred and eighty seven to twenty one cauliflower varieties fell from one hundred and fifty eight to nine and varieties of pears, fell from twenty, six, hundred and eighty, three to three, hundred and twenty six. Who though those are some pretty massive drops? Okay I, I did want to talk about those because I didn't know it was a real thing. I thought this was the Seinfeld joke. There's a whole joke inside. So the man and the. Program or the? Program was launched in Nineteen seventy-one. And it falls under the jurisdiction of UNESCO, and said its inception there now six hundred twenty one biospheres and one hundred seventeen countries and the goal, these biospheres is to use the relationship between humans and their environment in order to preserve resources. So the Seinfeld episode is one of my favorite very favorite. seinfeld upset. It's called the blast. They ass and George Jokes that Elaine was chosen to represent. New York and then the other newest biosphere. Experience, but I also got confused with something called Bio. Jill was that okay. Arizona so bio dome. Was a film. starring. polly shore. WAS NOT. It was not I mean it was the fictional film. I thought when I had this vision right head that it was like a cy five. Oh, no, no, this was like like. He gets like Kinda. Stack in the scientific experiment of a biosphere in like the researchers just have to deal with them. You seen this. I never saw this movie, but but in in looking it up i. have come to realize that that it had a cameo appearances from celebrities such as Kylie Minogue in rose McGowan. And also it was the first time that they that Ad Tenacious D. Appeared onscreen. As such together. Okay. None of this is making any sense to me I. My brain is like faltering to process this what this is! You gave me Louis Yati Dodd Donny Osmond. In Our last episode now I got today's D in Polish shore. The research dome. Yeah, it was, it was a kind of a whole cultural phenomenon that a lot of people were it was making big headlines in the nineteen nineties, because some some science humans, and some like non science humans would would either volunteer or be chosen or whatever to go, hang out like be sealed into these domes for awhile and Kinda of see what happened. Again But With more science on same page, okay? Wow I was not expecting tenacious. D reference to come up here. Neither was I. and I thought for a second. It might have been carrot top, not paulie shore, but oh gosh. Wow all right am I have to look this up? No sounds like the very nineties type of comedy movie. Yeah, from all the trailers I remember seeing. It was very slapstick, very goofy I think that e even like like middle. School High School Lauren felt somehow above this film. HR H. I still gotTa know I've got no. I did on the other side of this I. Think he's a tight nee, which is a movie I loved as a kid. That movie ends with. They find like Earth too, and it's basically a big seat belt. Like it has all those Oh. Yeah, I think there's some movie ends that way where they find like a backup earth and it has a yeah. and I suppose waterworld was also in a small way. Gosh about a very similar theme. Another Phil Cultural Touchstone I missed, but I have heard a lot about it. Oh Wow, oh, I hope that this is on your list of terrible movies. Because! It is truly a terrible movie. Hey and I. Feel like you would enjoy watching of it in. A very. Popcorn and and boxer wine kind of way. Oh! Enough said I am into it. He sold me. People are like watched excellent award-winning film. Watch this very bad movie, but you'll like it okay. There's like a lot of of of what are they called? Are they jetskis the things? Yeah I've seen the live action show at universal, so I got some kind of. Image in my head, they well. They used jet skis. How do I know if they actually do? Oh, yeah, no, they they use. They use a Lotta, jetskis. You know. No agriculture, but lots jetskis. That's what the film is basically about. So, they preserved the important thing the. Wow this. This was a cultural tangent. Iowa's not expecting to see bank episode. You're welcome, everyone. There's some a variety of things to try out there maybe if you're looking for entertainment. Yep. Something for everyone. Perhaps on a good thing, everyone but hey. Back to you. Yep We have the seed Savers Exchange which was founded in nineteen, seventy five, and their mission is to because they're still around today. conserve and promote America's culturally diverse but endangered food crop heritage for future generations by collecting growing and sharing heirloom seeds and plants. And nowadays they are one of the largest banks in north. America and they manage several see bank locations outside of their headquarters in Iowa. Then a the slow food movement, a very briefly began in the nineteen eighties, prescribing neo gastronomy, and at a slower more thoughtful approach to food, but an anti thousand three members of slow food international created the slow food foundation for biodiversity. The nineteen eighties also win community. Seed banks started popping up. The Convention on Biological Diversity took place in nineteen, ninety three, and then the millennium seed bank that we mentioned earlier located in wake hearst England the Millennium Seed Bank partnership was started by the Royal, Botanic Gardens in two thousand, and has gone on to preserve ten percent of wild plants CC's boasting over one billion seeds from one hundred thirty countries. There's twenty twenty goal was to be home to one fourth of the global bankable plants and I went on this whole like well, did they do it and I was trying to find it everywhere. I forgot still twenty twenty still progress. Assist believe it or not, it is still. Oh, Gosh ooh, so maybe we'll check back in. And, then in February, two thousand eight fall barred international seed vault, open up its doors for storage, and this is also known as the Doomsday Vault. Although the founder pretty much, he's known as the founder cary. Fowler Prefers Library of life. Which is also good? Also expert. They're both really nice. Yes, yes. So, okay, get this. This seed bank is located inside a frozen. Arctic Mountain in Norway. A location that can survive pretty much whatever is thrown at it from earthquakes to bombings It's meant to be this kind of global backup system. Seized provided from seed banks, all over the world are kept their black box. Protocols are used for these. The seed packages won't be opened or tested, and no one person knows all the vault codes required for entry. It is a serious place y'all and a really cool one literally oh sorry. It's kept negative. Eighteen degrees Celsius, but yes is built into this mountain in permafrost climate zone like eight hundred miles. That's thirteen hundred kilometers north of the Arctic Circle so that it hypothetically can keep cool, even if it loses power even for a long period of time a recent positive seeds include samples from the Cherokee nation seed bank. They have their own see bank as well including their oldest and most sacred corn variety, which like they brought with them on the trail of tears It's A. It's a it's a really. It's a really fascinating place and I think we could probably do an entire episode just on just on on on any of their like so many little seedlings of other episode ideas and here the but anyway. Yes and if you are really impatient, you WANNA. Know more about that right now. There is an interview with the founder on fresh air. Material Cool. Yeah, yeah, and it's. It's really interesting I think he said that. If you look up the closest town there to this seed bank, it's literally home to almost every like furthest northern bathroom for this northern bar. It's up there. It's up there. And just hearing the logistics of having people there and building fascinating. In recent years, awards have led to the destruction of see banks in Iraq Afghanistan and Syria with researchers, scrambling to establish new seed banks in their stead, and then hurricanes Maria have also been a problem. Yeah climate change in general has been adding wrinkles to the to the operation of seed banks back in two thousand seventeen melting permafrost flooded. Access tunnel at Fard Luckily, the water refroze before it got into actual vault, but yeah, they've spent some twenty million dollars over the past three years like water, proofing, everything and upgrading the cooling systems. because Yeah Yup? Yup It is very important and very fascinating. Stuff going on in this world of seed banks. Yeah Yeah. and although I didn't read anything specifically about it. Maybe I wasn't using the right search terms or I I just didn't look specifically for it, but I really wonder how much of a the fear of nuclear war and the the Cold War right played into the original development of seed banks and a and the conceptualization there. I would make a Lotta sense I like. I WANNA geography question. Just by why were they digging into this huge amount and putting stuff in there in eighth grade? Just by being like WH- around what time was this? Oh. Probably. Yeah. and. Certainly, there are a bunch of really we. We mentioned some of the big CBS in here, but there are a bunch of them doing really cool stuff and some of them are. Both global, but pretty specific to where they are. So. If you're interested, you can look that up there. There are a lot of them. Oh Yeah and if you have a particular. Interest in any one of them in really want to to hear US talk about it then right in and let us know yes, and speaking of we do have some listener mail for you. But first we've got one more quick break for word from our sponsor. Working from home. Comfort schools. On Me John with everything. We have going on right now. It's never been more important to sleep. We need while we sleep is a natural immune booster, and only the sleep number three sixty smart bends senses. Your movements automatically adjust your covered and support on both sides your sleep number setting so all those other things we're doing to stay healthy and happy well they'll work better tip. And now during the lowest prices of the season, the Queen Sleep number, three sixty four spot is only twelve ninety nine save four hundred dollars only for time to learn more go to sleepnumber dot com. Hey I'm andy. If you don't know me, it's probably because I'm not famous, but I did start. A men's grooming company called Harry's. The idea for Harry's came out of a frustrating experience I had buying razor blades. Most brands were overpriced over designed and out of touch at Harry's. Our approach is simple. Here's our secret. We make sharp durable blades and sell them at honest prices for as low as two dollars each. We care about quality so much that we do some crazy things like a world class German blade. Factory Factory, obsessing over every detail means we're confident and offering one hundred percent quality guarantee. Millions of guys have already made the switch to Harry's so thank you if you're one of them, and if you're not, we hope you give us a try with this special offer. Get a Harry starter set with a five blade. Razor waited handle, Shave Gel and travel cover offered just three bucks plus free shipping. Just go to Harrys. Dot Com and enter four four, four four at checkout. That's Harrys Dot com code, four, four, four four. Enjoy. And we're back. Thank you sponsor. Yes, thank you and Rebecca with. A. Dome. Okay okay. I thought it was so clear, but apparently. My my small closet space is the best can do. I was like. Is this a mushroom? We weren't talking about mushrooms, but I like mushrooms. Okay well. Yeah, which I'm sure. Is Dome adjacent? It's true sure. Yeah, thank you, thank you. And this first topic is the first listener mail fits in with A lot of what we've been talking about, but some stuff I wasn't even expecting us to talk about, but we did. Bobby route if I may suggest a topic food irradiation so. I worked at Sandia national lab as an Undergrad and while I was there the gamma irradiation facility was being used to radiate oranges for different companies and a huge lead line room with a huge cobalt sixty. Also we did experiments and undergrad where we would eat strawberries and compared them over two weeks than a month to non-irradiated strawberries. It was still fresh. I think people get really nervous about food irradiation, but it's a great way to keep food from spoiling without using pesticides and is used commercially so yes. Yes. I have enough asserted that. Allow Yeah Oh that that sounds that sounds super. Fascinating is not something I, particularly looked into before and also sounds like a terrific headache. that. Fun that I get the specific headache whenever I try to talk about radiation so good. So cool. I Genuinely is really really fascinating so yeah, adding it to the list, thank you. Stephanie wrote I have been a huge saver fan since the very first episode of foodstuff I love learning new tidbits of Food Trivia and your side tangents are always delightful. However, none delighted me quite as much as one you share during the funky green onion episode when I saw it. Come up in my queue. I thought to myself. ooh, I, wonder if they'll talk about far fetched, but my expectations were low, because I figured leaks were one of those. This needs zone episodes situations. When you started to bring pok. Mon I couldn't believe. Believe it? My wish is coming true. I have always thought farfetched and his leak. We're completely adorable I regularly refer to him as leak bird, which makes my husband roll his eyes every time and I like to imagine him using his leak to make himself soup at the end of a long day of battles, though I was a bit horrified to learn that the duck and the leak on its back both go into the soup in the original proverb, it was really cool to find out the inspiration behind one of my favorite POK Mon.. Okay. So many of you have written about this. Love we will be reading more of them over the coming. But. I have learned through. Some of these are a ton. Of Food based. POKEMON like a lot. And we are always happy to. Kansas and bring up pokemon. Yeah, whatever possibility? Super Producer Andrew? I'm counting on you. If we miss one. You've got to let us know. We are so happy to go on these tangents, and I saw myself when you brought it up. Completely Yeah yeah. Maybe We've gotten requests for like overall like for food of POK MON or like food and Pokemon, maybe because. It's it's a weird, little universe of with some strange things that you can eat and some strange. Yeah, strange critters so Apparently there's one. Poltergeist. And it's a pot of tea with poltergeist in it. Are you telling me? We gotTA talk about that. You can't give you that piece of information, not expecting to spend way too long researching. Yeah Oh. That's beautiful. Oh my heck okay? Yeah, just just the just. The the the different puns in different languages alone is enough to make me want to look into all of this. Yes. So okay to solid episode ideas right there. Yeah, yes, oh! Yes thank you so much, and we would love to hear from you listeners if you would like to email as you can, or email is hello at saver, pod, dot, com, or you can get in touch via social media. We are on Instagram facebook and twitter at saver pod, and we do hope to hear from you. Savor is production of iheartradio for more podcasts from my radio. You can visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thank you as always tour. Super. Producers. Dylan Fagin and Andrew Howard thanks to you for listening and we hope that lots market things are coming your way. Driver Brandon gone knows his way around the Nascar Track and the Las Vegas sports books on the gone recent podcast from these sin, these sports betting network friend in his joined by Vegas Racing Insider Jeff Motley to provide expert analysis that you can make your best bets on every- NASCAR race. They follow which drivers and teams have the best setups for the week ahead and compare results on every type of track, so you know who has the advantage coming into the race where to find the drivers with the best chances to win. Win as well as who may be worth a long shot wager before you place your bets on this weekend's race listened to the gone recent podcasts with Brandon. And Jeff's analysis of the driver's tracks, matchups and odds to give you their take on which teams have the best chances to win? The Gun Rayson podcast. We'll keep you entertained with insiders stories from the track giving you everything you need to increase your nascar betting I, q listen to and follow gone race on the iheartradio, APP, apple, podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
To Plant A Seed, with Better Than Human (ep. 110)
"It's almost here. This weekend is livestream for the cure. The fourth annual effort to raise money for cancer research. The goal. This year is ten thousand dollars. I'll be kicking off Saturday morning at ten. Am Three PM GMT by reading section of the your brain on facts book one of the topics that has never and will never be on the podcast. I know money is tight right now. I challenge each one of my listeners to donate one dollar for each person they can name that has struggled with cancer. Imagine how much good we could do. Altogether get all the information you need at livestream for the cure dot com in the early nineteen twenty s horticulture. Teacher Art Komen. Some students from the White River Agency school on the Fort. Apache Indian reservation decided to explore an abandoned sandstone cave deep in the cave safely nestled. On Natural Rock Ledge comb found a tiny ancient bottle inside a basket woven from strips of Yoga. When he tipped the bottle out into his hand right read watermelon. Seeds Poured Out. He took them home and planted them and was rewarded with freaks. That had not been seen for generations. Crook neck handled watermelons. My Name's moxy. And this is your brain on facts a seed is a little package of nutrients that sustains baby plant once it germinates okay seeds. You may be saying to yourself little things that come in a paper packet for a buck fifty how she going to make this interesting. No effort required it. All on my part there are more things on heaven and Earth Horatio than are dreamed of in your philosophy so let's start small. The smallest seeds in the world belong to orchids. They're not much bigger than a speck of dust. Literally only about fifty microns or five one hundredths of a millimeter across in terms. That are easier to visualize the finest human hair is about seventeen microns across also micron. Micrometer are the same thing. I just learned with orchids. It's all about quantity one particular. Tropical species can contain almost four million seeds per plant. Tiny and light is the way to go for orchids because their seeds are dispersed by the wind the lighter you are the farther you can go so the less likely you are to compete with the parent plant for resources. The seed coat for an orchid is only one cell thick and it traps air inside to make it like a tiny balloon around the soon to be plant which lets it travel even farther on the air and as a bonus allows them to float. Scientists have found seeds from a particular species hundreds of miles away from the parent plant. You'd be forgiven for thinking. Orchids must spread like Dandelions but orchids are EPA fights plants that grow on other usually a tree and the need Micronesia fungus for their roots finding the right tree and the right fungus severely limits. How many seeds will become new? Orchids hence the massive number and because the seeds are so tiny less of the parents. Plant resources has to go into making each one allowing it to make so many on the opposite side of the seed. Size spectrum is the coca demere. Coconut of the C. Found only in the Seychelles. An archipelago off the east coast of Africa. Coco de Mayor Palms produce the largest heaviest seeds in the world which also amusingly look like a shapely softic but from which they get their nickname. The love nut. How big are these thick boys up to a foot and a half or half a meter long and weighing as much as eighty eight pounds or forty kilos it takes six to ten years for the fruit containing the see to ripen? And once they dropped from the tree. Hopefully not on anyone. The seeds take another two years to germinate. The Cocoa Demere poems put far more resources into seed production than other palm trees. They're huge leaves. Also Act as rain funnels providing steady source of water and flushing nutrient rich organic material down to the base of the tree. We know how the seats got so big. But do we know why researchers think the dense shady conditions and a lack of animal seed dispersal informed their evolution. The seeds of their mainland cousins are spread by elephants. But you don't get elephants in the Seychelles when not relying on animals for dispersal. There's no need for the plant to keep it. Seeds at an edible size bona stacked avocado pits are so huge because they used to be distributed by prehistoric ground slots if only there was some way to tell the plants to get with the times for tiny new cocoa trees. Competition for sunlight is intense so huge seeds in more fuel to keep the young plants going until they can grow tall enough to get to the sun. Sadly and you can probably finish the sentence for me. The Cocoa Desire is endangered. Not only from the usual pollution and land clearing but because people keep taking the seeds home as souvenirs right now there are only about nine thousand cocoa. Dmitri's left one thing. There is more of thankfully our supporters over at Patriotair Dot com slash. Your brain on facts. Welcome and sincere. Thanks to lure light denise and Colton like all our members they are currently getting all of the perks of every level until the lockdown is lifted. Perks like a bonus mini episode about the second. Mgm Lion Jack. What makes him so special? Only members will know for sure. Thanks also to you sir. Lv's zero one to two for their five star review. Jan of a podcast. I honestly have no idea how I stumbled. Upon oxy's podcast plays so glad that I did. I'm currently listening to all the back episodes as I type. This all episodes are well researched well written and expertly delivered. Thank you very much for creating this podcast and thank you teekay. Four to one I mean L. BB's zero one. Two to remember of you'd like to hear your opinion read on the show. Leave a review on. You're listening APP of choice. We've touched on seed dispersal a it. It wouldn't matter how well-designed to see it was if it had no way to get where it was going. You're probably familiar with a few methods already. Some plants rely on the outside of animals. As anyone who's ever pulled burst from their pets coat or their socks can tell you. Many plants rely on their fruit being eaten by animals to move their seats around some plants. Their seats to be dropped as the animal eats but some are counting on them being dropped afterwards so these seeds have tough outer coat to protect them from the digestive process. Other seeds actually require digestion. In order to sprout the hard seeds of blackberries for example are designed to wake up from dormancy after being a braided by the grit in a bird's gizzard stomach acids and digestive enzymes. Break down the hard seed coat to make the seeds more permeable to water to help them sprout and of course being deposited in a steamy pile of fertilizer doesn't hurt anything either. Birds and mammals don't have the market cornered on C. Dispersal in South America. The took him palm actually relies on fish. A fruit eating fish take a moment to absorb that concept to comes grow in the largest freshwater wetland in the world in a Brazilian section of the Amazon Rainforest Annual Rainstorms. Lead the region. And that's when the to come palm drops its fruit and the Poku fish are waiting for those unfamiliar Poku or a giant cousin to the Parana with bizarre and unnecessary human looking teeth. Poku love the palm fruit so much that fishermen use it as bait. Scientists weren't completely sure if the Paku were really doing much to spread the seeds or if the fruit eating was just because over several seasons a team of college checked the guts about seventy fish and found that nearly three quarters of them had at least one seed in their digestive tract. One fish had more than one hundred and forty seats many of which were still intact meaning they would be able to sprout after the fish had pooped them out and the flood water had receded. The scientists also check the fee sees of other animals that live around the poems but no intact seats were found either. The pome fruit wasn't popular menu. Item or the seeds didn't survive the digestive tracts of terrestrial animals. This paragraph is going to take the same turn as the Copa co-ppemier. Humans are overfishing the Paku especially the biggest ones which are the ones that can eat and distribute the most seats if the pocket go that could spell real trouble for the two components that depend on them. Why rely on birds and fishes when you can have seed babies that fly equipped with parachutes or wings gliders helicopters a diverse group of plants have adapted for wind dispersal? Each tiny dandelions fruit has a feathery pompous to help it catch a breeze when you make a wish side note. Yellow Dandelions are the first major source of nectar for bees in many areas each spring. So please don't be in such a hurry to mow them. Wurley birds from the maple tree which are so fond. Toss in the air and watch spiral down. Our winged fruits called Samaras other seeds. Have papery edges and even full wings to help them. Disperse the seeds of the climbing. Also Mr Gordon of the Malaria Cappella go have a wingspan of five inches or twelve centimeter across animal. Seed dispersal may seem like a system in which the plants are a passive participant and the animals. The active one. There is a system in which the plants actually take the lead to tell you more about that. Please welcome my guests from the better than human podcast. I'm Jennifer and this is my sister and Co host also known as amber where here today to talk about. Mass feeding mass seating. Is Amber Google a little bit so professional. So say you're a tree and every year you produce the same amount of seeds. What kind of Trim I am? I pretty tree. It doesn't matter as long as you're the kind of tree that produce nutritious seeds that have a decent chance of surviving and thriving wherever they have to end up. So you're talking about something like an oak tree or an Acorn tree which are technically the same. Sure you're an acorn trade. You produce nuts or seeds that are so nutritious. Animals collect an LETHEM. Clicking can be a good thing for an acorn tree because say a squirrel picks up some of your seeds and they bury them later and then they forget about them. Because you know they're squirrels. Your been dispersed and buried. And now they're hidden ready to grow but if squirrel and other animals eat all of your seeds. And you've wasted all your energy making these seeds and you have no rewards and by rewards we meet in your DNA spreading so reproducing. Yep Reproduce ipod and all the effort to Lacey AIDS and I don't how little seedlings so if a tree you come up with this great idea. I'm going to make a ton of this year so many that. There's no possible way. The squirrels can eat all of them and they'll end up bearing a lot of them. That will grow into trees. But if you're the only tree that does us what's to say that they will just eat all of your seeds and not all the other tree seeds so it won't be beneficial for you and you've wasted even more energy producing more seeds than you needed to to counteract that you communicate to all the trees around you. Maybe you say. Hey this year. Why don't we make a lot of seeds so many that the squirrels simply cannot eat all of them? The trees in the area agree with you to produce an excessive amount of seeds and nuts during that season the animals in the area themselves which would cause an increase in their population. And of course they would end up leaving some seeds buried so it would be a little bit beneficial to you. However increased population. Squirrels does not seem beneficial over time. Because obviously if there's more squirrels there's more squirrels to eat your seeds but you tell your friends for the next year. Hey let's save energy this here and make only a few seeds. So how does that help? The trees by making less seeds the following year because a squirrel population has skyrocketed. And now there is no available food for that population so there will be a mass die off of the squirrels fast forward. Another year in the squirrel population is very small. So you end. The other trees don't have to spend a lot of energy producing seeds in order to reproduce. Because there's a limited number of animals around eat those seeds so I can just produce how many I one produced an average amount. Or what do I do? You could just produce an average amount or even a slightly less than average amount because there's not a lot of squirrels to eat all your proceeds. Okay that's mass seating in a nutshell pun intended. It works and it's awesome right. Well not for the squirrels because they get those massive explosion population they have all these babies and the next year. There's no food to feed them and they all die exactly. And what if the squirrels happen to learn to speak tree and they hear the trees? Having this conversation among themselves they'd have to know a lot of seeds were coming and this would encourage them to have a ton of babies and eat all your seeds and again it would be a giant waste but Ken squirrels understand tree language. Do Trees even understand tree language? Are they like ants? Maybe we're not sure. There's some studies to show that the animals might be able to predict when the trees are going to have a mass seating. But then there's also evidence to say that that doesn't happen so in other words we have no clue world understand. We're still not completely sure how the trees talk to each other fair point. I mean a lot of trees share the same root system. Well those are actually technically the same trae. Yeah Okay and then the problem comes up. What if one tree decided to be selfish and decided to not do what the trees did that year. So in the year of the mass seating they put out a low amount of seeds that year and then the year of the low squirrel population they put out a ton of feeds. They would be cheating the system and that gets into the Game Theory and the prisoner's dilemma. Which is interesting. But we don't have time for that true but maybe trees are better than human and they all the. I'll do it together. Mass seeding can be a way to manipulate the animal population that feeds on your seeds to advantage you as long as animal populations cannot predict what is going to happen and as long as all the other trees play along. That's really interesting. The trees can manipulate animals to their advantage. Really is this is better than human. This is your favorite comedy slash science. Podcast we discussed the best and worst of humanity and try to prove. Humans aren't the epitome of evolution. They showing how great awesome. Everything else in the universe's thanks. Ladies plants scattered their seats with a real bang by the right Glue Mediterranean Sea. There's a plant that disperses its seeds. Super Super Style. It's called completely maturely and in no way prurient or amusing squirting cucumber X. sure a fuzzy Erkin hanging from the talk of a flower stalk about a foot high when a squirting cucumber ripens the slightest vibration causes it to shoot off the stem spraying out seeds in a jet of Gu as much as twenty feet or six meters away. You really have to see it to believe it link in the show notes and on the website. It's an example of an unusual adaptation called rapid plant movement like a flytrap closed its jaws. Plants don't have muscles like animals do but they do have rigid cell walls. These can hold back pressure. And that's what's at work here. The squirting cucumbers explosion is a one time event powered by the release of pressure that builds up inside the fruit as it ripens and fills with liquid the squirting cucumber is related to the cucumbers in your salad and some gardeners plant them as novelty but do not eat them as they are poisonous. It's easy to stay safe from the squirting cucumber to stay safe from the South American dynamite tree. You need to stay about a hundred forty feet or forty five meters away from it. It seed cases are shaped like little decorative Pumpkins as they dry out the individual ridges holding the seeds. Start to shrivel. They shrink so much as they try. They break away from the central axis and suddenly the whole thing explodes with a bang like a gun shop. The inch long seeds fly out at speeds of around two hundred thirty feet or seventy meters per second. Despite this inherent danger some people do plant them as shade trees in the tropics. I guess you have take the bad with the good but how efficient. A method is an exploding Syed Case. Scientists choose high speed photography to measure the velocity and angles the seeds and found that the shape and angle of the seed. Capsules gives the seeds of maximum range to fly like startling little botanical frisbees. Speaking of Frisbees and other fun toys and Games thanks to Greenbrier Games donating prizes for the latest round of Trivia. It's getting increasingly hard to come up with questions. That are just the right level of difficult. So I- moving trivia to in every other week format when it's up you can find it at your brain on facts dot com slash trivia. We've done smallest biggest fastest. How about oldest seeds? Let me add one condition. Bear because archaeologists have found seeds with prehistoric animals and in cave dwellings. What is the oldest seed? That's actually germinated. I can't source seeds properly for more than a year so it really impresses me that Israeli scientists were able to sprout a date palm seed about two thousand years old that upsets the previous record holder. A Lotus found in a dry lake bed in China. I about seven hundred years. The date seed was one of several found in the nineteen sixties by archaeologists excavating Masada fortress in the Judean desert destroyed by the Romans. In seventy three CE in two thousand five three seats were planted. Lewis Bork Natural Medicine Research Center no reports as to why then and not sooner of the three. One seed germinated. It didn't just sprout. It grew three years later. The poem was a healthy three foot. Tall plant the team named the tree. Methuselah after the biblical figure said to have lived to the age of nine hundred and sixty nine when the tree was moved to a bigger pot at fifteen months the team retrieved fragments of the Shell and radiocarbon dating showed that it dates back to the time of Masada. It makes sense when you say that. The Dry desert conditions preserved the seeds. But how does that actually work? The lack of humidity reduces the generation of free radicals which caused oxidation and therefore damage. This just in Methuselah. The date tree is not the oldest viable seed plant. It's been beaten by thirty thousand years. A Russian team discovered seeds of Selene stint of Fila a flowering plant needed to Siberia buried by some Ice Age animal near the banks of the Kolyma River. Radiocarbon dating confirmed the seeds were thirty. Two thousand years old. The seats were found one hundred twenty four feet or thirty eight meters below the permafrost surrounded by layers of bones for mammoths bison and woolly rhinoceros. There were both mature and immature seeds. While the mature seeds were damaged. There was still viable plant material inside the immature seeds. The team extracted that material placed it in vials and successfully germinated the plants. The plants grew flowered and after a year created seeds of their own which is a sentence. I feel disproportionately happy to be reading. As the plants grew the researchers saw that the flowers of the ancestral plant where a slightly different shape from the modern style of Philip Flowers speaking of surprises being revealed. I've got one coming up for you. I'll be doing an unbalancing video soon. What could a podcast or be une? Boxing you my while ask. I won't say yet. But you'll have a chance to win one in the meantime op over to the social media at facebook and Instagram Dot com slash your brain on facts and twitter at brain on facts pod to answer all about the most convenient time for the livestream to take place. I'd like as many people as possible to have a chance to win. And while you're there remember that word of mouth when this case word of mouse is still the best way to help your favorite podcast. There are many organizations around the world who have taken up the banner of seed preservation thousand. In fact most of us have heard of the seed vault. It's Bart the cool looking tower. Sticking out of Norwegian mountain or the permafrost ensures that the seats are reserved without need for electricity incoming futurama reference behold the swallow bond global seed vault since two thousand eight. The vault is preserved of every known plant species in case of extinction. What Your Business bookie poke in about. Two seed Vault Guardian. Mankind's precious botanical heritage. There we just want to come in rummage out of it so okay. If you don't want to go quite so far north perhaps flight old blighty and visit the Millennium Seed Bank at Q. Gardens in London in two thousand nine they reached the goal of preserving and cataloging seeds from all of the. Uk's native plant species with the exception for things that don't store well they also work with a network of nearly one hundred other seed banks around the world to preserve species institute where they are and provide backup samples in case the specimens at one seed. Bank are compromised alongside the three attractive glass buildings which House the collection a laboratory and the public exhibits face and really is quite fetching. There are raised garden beds. Each an example threatened landscape in Britain. If there was a C- bank that looked like a nice day trip Q. Gardens would be it. It's not the most important seed bank though or the bank that has given its collection the most protection for that we have to go back to World War Two with an abrupt shift in tone. In September. Nineteen forty one. German forces began to push into Leningrad before and since called Saint Petersburg. They laid siege to the city choking off the supply of food and other necessities to the two million residents the siege of Leningrad. Didn't last a month or two or even six. The siege lasted nearly nine hundred days. Among the two million Soviet citizens struggling to survive were a group of scientists ready to make the ultimate sacrifice for the good a fan kind while they did their leader. Nikolai Vavilov a Russian geneticist and plant geographer. Lay dying in a Soviet prison. A thousand miles away. Savelov had traveled the world on what he called a mission for all humanity. He led one hundred and fifteen expeditions in sixty four countries to collect seeds of crop varieties and their wild ancestors based on his notes. Modern biologists following envelopes footsteps are able to document changes in the culture and physical landscape and the crop patterns in those places to study the Global Food Ecosystem. Vavilov conducted experiments in genetics to improve productivity for farmers he was one of the first scientists to really listen to farmers traditional farmers peasant farmers around the world and why they felt seed. Diversity was important in their fields says Gary Poll Novel Ethno Biologist and author of where our food comes from retracing Nikolai Vavilov quest to end famine. All of our notions about biological diversity and needing diversity of foods on our plates to keep us healthy sprung from his work eight years ago. That bluffs hope was that one day science could work with agriculture to increase each farms productivity and create plants could grow in any environment thus bringing an end to world hunger as Russia fought its way through revolutions anarchy and most importantly to Avalon of famine. He went about storing seeds at the Institute of Plant Industry in the Pavlov's experimental station the scientists they're collected thousands of varieties of fruits vegetables grains and tubers unlike swale Barbecue Gardens. Now the seeds and Pavlovsky weren't just sorta seeds but some were perpetuated as plants in the field. This is because some varieties don't breed true from seeds so they can't be stored as seeds to get the plants you want in the future. There was one obstacle in Vavilov sway to really but one was much greater threat that being Soviet Premier Joseph Stalin. The secondary threat was Stalin's favourite scientists trofim Lysenko Lysenko was a dangerously misinformed scientists rather than survival of the fittest where the genes that help an organism survive. Long enough to reproduce are the ones that get passed on. Lysenko believed that organisms could inherit traits that their parents acquire during their lifetime so instead of believing that the giraffe with the longest neck can reach food and live to have babies. He believed that the giraffe stretched its neck up. And so it's baby would have a longer neck because of it. He also believed that if you grafted a branch from desirable tree onto a less desirable tree. The base tree would improve. His theories about seeds and flowers were equally backwards. It was garbage science at best at worst. Well we don't need to speculate on that. We saw it happen. Crops failed under the now. Mandatory Lysenko Systems on the new collectivized farms which themselves Reduced Productivity. Lysenko's policies brought on famine. But he was in Stalin's favor and in the Soviet Union. That was all that mattered in August. Nineteen forty eight. The government outlawed the teaching of and research into Classic Mandalay N. genetics the P. Plant based genetics. We learn about in middle school. This disastrous government interference in the face of widely accepted science and the outcomes at brought our cold. The Lysenko effect a there was no way. Stalin's favourite scientists was going to take the fall for the famine so sullen singled out Vavilov who had been openly critical of Lysenko. He claimed Avalon was responsible for the famines because his process of carefully selecting the best of plants took too long to produce results. Vavilov was collecting seeds near the Russian border when he was arrested and subjected to seventeen hundred hours of savage interrogation World War Two was in full swing and it was impossible for his family to find out what had happened to him Vavilov. Who spent his life trying to end? Famine starved to death. In the Gulag back in Leningrad. Some scientists from the Institute of Plant Industry were able to get the bulk of the tuber collection and themselves to another location. Within the city a dozen of avalon scientists stayed behind to safeguard the seed collection. At first. It seemed as though they'd only have to contend with the marauding enemy troops breaching the city seeking to steal the seeds or simply destroy the building. The Red Army pushed the Germans back as long as they could. Nothing moved. In or out of the city Leningrad must die of starvation. Hitler declared in a speech in Munich. November eighth nineteen forty one as the siege dragged on the scientists then had to contend with protecting the seeds from their own starving countrymen. Food was rationed but once it ran out people eight anything they could to survive furman stray dogs leather sawdust and is so often happens in such dark hours. Some eight dead. Scientists barricaded themselves inside with hundreds of thousands of seeds a quarter of which were edible just as they are along with Rice and grain but they did not eat them. The scientists took turns guarding the storerooms and shifts even as they grew weaker even as they heard the Germans looting and destroying out in the streets. The only thing that mattered was guarding the collection. Safeguarding both the botanical. Past and future of mankind and the work of their fallen Vavilov one by one. The scientists began to die of starvation. Ooh One man died at his desk. Another died surrounded by bags of rice in the end. Nine of the twelve scientists did not live to see the end of the siege but not a single grain seed or tuber had been eaten according to author Navan. One of them said it was hard to wake up. It was hard to get on your feet and put on your clothes in the morning but no it was not hard to protect the seeds. Once you had your wits about you saving those seeds for future generations and helping the world recover after war was more important than any single person's comfort unlike many of the eighty five million deaths in World War Two those nine scientists lives. Were not wasted today. Many of the crops that we eat come from crossbreeding with varieties the scientists saved as much as eighty percent of all of the pre-collapse Soviet Union's fields were sown with varieties that originated in valves collection. It is a sad tale. I know but it is also an amazing one that so few of us here which is odd when you consider how many thousands of hours of World War Two documentaries there are and the world nearly lost Vavilov collection a second time in twenty ten the land it sits on was being sold to a developer. Who planned to build private homes on the site? The collection can't be moved. There are all sorts of complex legal and technical issues including quarantines the public called for the site to be preserved and in two thousand twelve. The Russian government took formal action to prevent the land from being conveyed to private buyers. And as far as I can find it still safely stamps. And that's where we run out of ideas at least for today. Back to the handle watermelon. Even if art com had wanted to know how old the seats he found were the technology to date them didn't yet exist of the two hundred seeds in the bottle only about twelve. That he planted germinated. They were unlike any watermelon. He had ever seen an oval shaped watermelon. That tapered at the end into a perfect handle. Possibly bread to make the plants easy transport but people wouldn't want to buy a weird looking Mellon. He figured so comb crossed them with modern melons. Still rogue handles would appear in his field. Luckily for variety comb shared some of the original seeds with a friend of his cliven Bundy bread the line faithfully and shared seeds with neighbors for thirty years. Bundy later gotten a dispute with the federal government over grazing. His cattle on public land. Got An standoff with them in two thousand fourteen and his son. Ayman took over the mall or National Wildlife Refuge in two thousand sixteen with a bunch of gun toting redneck cronies. But that's another show. Stay tuned for another podcast. You might enjoy remember. You can always find the sources and the script for the show at your brain on facts dot com. Thanks for spending part of Your Day with me. Stay SAFE. Are you in a top ten lists? What about pop culture or maybe? You're just a nerd like us. We've got a show for you loser. Hi I'm Nick I'm brandon. We're the host of the tennis podcast. A comedy and entertainment podcast covering a new top tennis every week including fun. Facts and Trivia. We've covered such as the top ten most popular ninety songs on spotify. The deadliest animals the worst. Us presidents leading causes of death. The best selling video game franchises most common murder methods. Okay are you going to give one? That doesn't about death. The deadliest jobs in America listen to these and countless other top ten list every Wednesday at POD DOT com. Or wherever you listen to podcasts top horror villains by. I think we're done here if you listen to this. Podcast is a good chance to you. We are the PODCAST. That's one zero S H by.
The Royal Eggplant Episode
"Are you excited for little fires everywhere on who? Well so are we. Which is why we made a whole podcast about it. Appropriately named little fires everywhere. The official PODCAST. My name's Jamie Loftus and along with show runner executive producer and head writer. Liz Tig lar- we're going to be taking you behind the scenes of the show every week so make sure to listen to little fires everywhere. The official podcast on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts and Stream. Who is little fires everywhere? Starring Reese Witherspoon and Carrie Washington now only on Hulu social distancing slows the spread of corona virus. So stay a minimum of six feet away from others and stay home if you can more info at Corona Virus Dot Gov. Let's all do our part because we're all Hashtag alone together. Brought to you by the Ad Council. Hello and welcome to savor production of iheartradio. I'm Anne Reese and I'm Laurin vocal bomb and today we're talking about eggplant. We are but I. I thought maybe we address the fact of our new recording situation. Yeah we've got we've got a fancy new studio and buy studio. I mean any and I are both in our closets. Yes you know. When I first moved in here I did intend for this cause it to be my office so old. It's worked out for me in a way you're fulfilling I'm not gonNA say a dream. Dream IS SHARP WORD. But but yeah you're fulfilling a desire. Yes yes so. So intention exactly Because it was my office and then it became a cause play closet and a book closet. I am right next to a window so if it sounds like a birdhouse apology. Yeah Yeah and and I'm I'm not like in my closet. I'm just facing my closet so I'm using like my like Edwardian morning gown as sound baffling there may or may not be cats that come and join us some point You know we're we're just we're just trying to keep each other and and everyone safe during this time of corona virus and yeah it's GONNA BE GREAT. It is and so. Is this episode about egg. Yeah so I. I grew up in a house. My Dad hated plant so no eggplant in the house but since I moved to Atlanta I've come to love Spicy Fried eggplant. That's in my favorite favorite things. How My my dad? Eggplant Parmesan is definitely one of the dishes. That my dad would make like at work never at home not going to go through that mess at home but but but make it work and bring home sometimes and that was delicious. But Yeah Oh I I love an eggplant I I love. I love it when it's like Nice. Silky and and I think we just grilled we grilled smeg plant a couple days ago. Oh did you uh-huh Nice. There was a lot of eggplant to be had when I was in China. That was a very popular dish. Stewed eggplants delicious delicious. Yeah but okay. Oh right yes. We're we're also. We're also working with each other like on skype so we can kind of see each other via delay. So if we sound like we're working with a slight delay that's why there's a reason for everything but okay. Let's guitar question plans. What is it? Oh well eggplant is a kind of spongy moist slightly bitter and earthy tasting fruit. Yes a fruit with tiny seeds in a thin glossy skin. It's like a like a more solid through tomato. That's been victim to a vegetable vampire Which just reminds me of Bonilla Again? But have you read? The bucket. People are asking. I have not read it. I I have some time now so get on it. I'll try to get you a copy. Oh Gosh Eggplant Yes yes. It is related to the tomato Both are members of the genus. At plant is the species selenium Mellon Gina potatoes are also in this genus and tobacco. It's in the nightshade family. And Gosh we should do an episode about poisons. He has beaten their edible. Sure you don't have to convince me Lauren. On board I really wanted to do like poison rabbit hole and and talk about nightshade a whole lot but didn't have time today. Subject for another episode. We will absolutely come back to it. Oh yes but he. Yeah Yeah there are a couple of other species in Lanham That are referred to as eggplants around the world. There are warm weather tropical plant in general and they grow on these Smallish soft stemmed shrubs usually like a meter or three feet. Tall broad green leaves that shade. These pretty flowers that come in shades of white purple and pink and then develop into fruits with skin in shades of white yellow green red and purple like all the way to Purple Black Sometimes spotted or striped and in shapes from Globes the size of a pea to a golf ball or tubes or other like oblong that can be about a foot long. We're about a third of a meter The inner flesh remains white though and we eat plants when they're still immature still soft because they go all like stringy when they're fully ripe wouldn't be good There used as vegetable. Some varieties are eaten raw in some places but most are cooked Whereupon that flesh gets sorta like a silky an extra soft almost creamy yeah An eggplant is eaten. All kinds of ways stuffed as Parmesan Babu baked sauteed. Fried stewed pickled grilled Moussaka Radha to a movie. You still haven't seen I said don't watch this. Oh we should scooby Doo on and of course on Netflix. Now so oh cool okay all right. I I mean hey. I've got a box of wine and plenty of time after this so her vet perfect. If you are looking to FRY eggplant specifically it does indeed help to salt it and press it before you do that because that draws out and then squeezes out moisture from that kind of spongy flesh although if you're prepared in other ways that's less necessary. I'm not totally sure about the whole lake. Salt helping with bitterness thing but Yeah yeah the eggplant goes by a bunch of different names Auber gene. Which is my favorite Guinea squash? Berge soul and melon gene. So where does the name eggplant come from? According to wonder opelousas it has to do with the shape of the eggplant in the seventeen. Hundreds when it was smaller and Whitish Yellowish so egg like. Yeah Yeah I saw that in multiple places But oddly enough by the eighteen nineties like like as century and a half later purple eggplants were apparently common enough that people had started using the term eggplant to mean like dark purple. So Oh wow yeah. And meanwhile Aberdeen comes from the Arabic term. Which is where many languages get there where it's four eggplant. Yes and now. Let's discuss the nutrition. Sure Yeah Plant has a whole bunch of fiber and a good smattering of kind of small amounts of vitamins minerals like vitamin C potassium. It'll it'll help fill you up but it definitely will not keep you going unless you pair it. With sources of fat and protein Issues can be pretty fatty because all that spongy fiber soaks up oil. You know. Watch your portion sizes. Nothing that has been Parmesan is particularly health. Food The the skins though are a good source of a number of compounds that our bodies can use to do good stuff any oxygen and stuff like that and anything. Fiber is good for helping control of blood sugar and cholesterol in the flesh does contain a. Kora genyk acid which can help reduce blood pressure. The leaves of most varieties should not be eaten because they can be toxic. Good things not to your But they are used medicinally in some places. I've read that they have a slight narcotic effect and the botanical genus. Name Lanham May in fact refer to the Soothing effect of the leaves when used topically and the whole plant has been and in some places still is used medicinally for all kinds of things. Science is looking into bodies are weird. More research needs to be done numbers wise China India Turkey Iran and Egypt. Make up about ninety percent of world. Eggplant production at China alone is like fifty seven percents And apparently in India it's referred to as the king of vegetables Perhaps it has like a cap where the stem connects to the fruit. That sort of looks like a crown Perhaps you sure totally totally or perhaps just because it's like inexpensive and well liked maybe both in Asia and the Mediterranean. It's considered one of the five most important vegetable crops and as of two thousand fourteen. Humans were producing some fifty million tons per year with a total value of over. Ten Billion Dollars The Guinness Record for the heaviest eggplant is a specimen from the UK that in two thousand eighteen at the national giant vegetables championships. Which is a thing. Which wow we need to go to clearly who'll But but yeah. This specimen weighed in at three point zero six kilos which is six pounds eleven ounces which is heavier than I was as a baby I would not wanna get hit or was the baby. Neither no neither. There's also a record on record setter dot com which is not a site that I have a lot of familiarity with but apparently you can just like submit records for whatever and you can challenge records for whatever there's a record on their for most eggplant passes between two people in thirty seconds and it is eighty three times. Ooh That's pretty impressive. Yeah right you're a field day. Did you have field day? Oh yeah yeah when the water balloon toss and you had to take a step back every time I very good yeah I was i. You probably wouldn't believe this about me but I am surprisingly good at throwing related. Like tossing related scary. Oh Yeah I don't know. Yeah maybe we can challenge this record and we need a record. Oh Gosh we do. Oh we could. I bet we could come up with all kinds of creative weird records I believe in. Y'All have any ideas right. Ed also The World Vegetable Center has seed samples from three cultivated and over thirty wild species of eggplant overall upwards of thirty two hundred samples collected from ninety countries So yeah there are a bunch of different varieties of eggplant out there In a bunch of different places that's true and perhaps because of that are leading up to that is history. Yes which we will get to right after we get back from a quick break for word from our sponsor Today's episode is brought to you by Grove collaborative. We talk about sustainability a lot here on favorite because what we do to. The environment affects our food supply and with all the convenience products and packaging out there in the world we humans create and consume a lot of plastic and although recycling plastic is great reducing. Our plastic use is better grove dot. Co offers products like sturdy stylish reasonable soap dispensers and sandwich bags plus plant based alternatives to plastic sponges and scrubbers but they offer all kinds of beauty products personal care products and cleaning products to keep your bathroom and kitchen stocked with more sustainable choices totally turned something that. I didn't generally have a lot of excitement of bows Cleaning and cleaning products and does something. That was simple and it made the prospect of cleaning my apartment a lot. Us Dante always fantastic for a limited time when you go to grove dot co slash saver. You'll get a free five piece cleaning set for Mrs Myers Grove in Crisp Sense. Like Mentor. Rose a thirty dollar value. Go to grow dot. Co Slash Saver to get this exclusive spring cleaning offer. That's grove dot co slash saver. Today's episode is brought to you in part by Amazon photos. A lifetime of photos can be a lot to organize on your phone from baby's first steps to first have school holidays birthdays. Last year's vacation to celebrate mother's Day Amazon photos helps you backup. Organiz print and relive your memories. Amazon photos offers free unlimited full resolution. Photo storage and five gigs of video storage. For All Amazon prime members not a prime member. No problem get five gigs of photos and videos. Personalized the background and screensavers with your photos on your fire TV or echo show to get started. Download the Amazon voters APP or visit Amazon Dot com slash photos? Use Code podcast. Fifteen to save fifteen percent on canvas prince photo books and more Amazon photos. Your memories remembered era back. Thank you sponsor. Yes thank you. So eggplants most likely originated in India China Thailand. Burma are somewhere else in Southeast Asia though its genetic descendants may have come from Africa Yeah that the working theory is that this wild selenium species from Africa end or the Middle East as selenium in canam income that as a Harry Potter. So you know it is funny and can tell them Salona them in kind of their. I cannot argue with your logic contest. Eggplants rain down from the so delicious and Badgley. Who'LL I it would stop me? I would be confused. Oh yeah you can totally jump me that way. Yeah and then I'd probably start picking up the eggplant stockpiling them share right delicious. They can be expensive anyway. Okay yes and Hardwood find. Whatever this thing. Whatever this thing was it was domesticated and ancient India Myanmar and China and became eggplant. An independent domestication may have happened later on in. What's now the Philippines but but yes instead of food most early documentation indicates it was mainly used medicinally arithmetic texts. Dating back to one hundred. Bc describes some of the believed health benefits of eggplant. The first known written direct record of Eggplant and Sanskrit literature took place in third century. See although a possible indirect reference might go back all the way to three hundred BC and as far back to fifty-nine ancient Chinese literature possibly referencing eggplants centuries of domestication documented by the ancient Chinese increased the weight and size of Eggplant and changed other traits. Like flesh and peel color prickliness and flavor documents botanical. Drawings follow the process from the seventh to the nineteenth centuries. See it's like really useful and helpful documented. Air prickliness is really interesting. Because a lot of wild species still do get like a lot of trickles Especially on the planet but sometimes on the fruit itself and so it's something that has been very specifically bred out of most domestic eggplants exactly beginning around the Sixth Century C. E. Merchants transported eggplant for trade along the Silk Road to Africa the Middle East and further west into Europe. But some evidence dating back to the second century see indicates that the eggplant was not unknown outside of Asia. Possibly carried by Alexander Grapes records show. It made it to Japan by the eighth century. Ce MEDIEVAL PERSIAN MEDICAL CAUTIONED. The use of eggplant warning. It could cause huge host of negative outcomes from leprosy to elephant. Titus two pimples insomnia some blood thickening and blackening however will. It wasn't all bad. I know this sounds a little little risky. But it wasn't all bad with proper preparation which I believed involves salting salting eggplant They claimed it that it could be beneficial. Oh so shrug shrug emoji. Eggplant has been a lot of art one piece in particular that caught our eye dates back to the thirteen hundred and depicts the believed Aphrodisiac Properties of the eggplant. It looks I really enjoyed that painting. The eggplant looks quite quite royal. Quite sight to behold during the fifteenth seventeenth centuries. Spanish brought the Eggplant to South America and it was recorded in Brazil by the middle of the eighteenth century in fifteen forty four herbalism. Matthew really wrote of the eggplants potential as an aphrodisiac translating to those that eat love. Apples and plants are receptive to flirting so he basically said if you eat these love apples. Which for eggplant. You're going to be open to possibilities. yeah. I think that most of this was a specifically about women. It was said that if women eat these things then they'll be more right receptive to flirtation right exactly other countries in Europe where the eggplant did not grow so well. Viewed eggplant a lot more suspiciously in fifteen ninety seven English herbalist Gerard wrote in Egypt and barbary. They used to eat the fruit of Malla insana boiled or roasted under ashes with oil vinegar and pepper as people used to eat mushrooms but I rather wish Englishman to content themselves with the meat and sauce of our own country than with the fruit and sauce. Eaten with such peril for doubtless. These apples have a mischievous quality views. Thereof is utterly to be forsaken therefore it is better to esteem this plant and have him in the garden for your pleasure. And the rarest thereof than of any virtue are good qualities yet known some racism there just a little bit is in a phobia. That's I mean yeah fine. Thank thank God. I do like being something being called having a mischievous quality eggplant I can just imagine it like sitting in my fruit bowl. A mischievous like Tortorella gets little moustachioed. Yeah and Malla Insana. Yeah that that translates to like insanity apple or like madness apple right yeah. Some countries in Europe referred to Eggplant as mad apples around this time and they believed that eating them would possibly lead to insanity. And that's actually where we get that botanical name from Mellon Gina Derives from the Italian name for the plant Millan Zane which derives from Mala Insana so cool People were were wary of things that reminded them of a of the poisonous members of the nightshade family. Which I think is a little bit for but also CR tomatoes episode for so much more hilarity regarding all of that. Yes and where if you need another reason to check out? We're wolves if we look at art created post Renaissance in Europe. The art suggests a rise in eggplants popularity as determined by. It's more frequent depictions. I found an entire I think eighteen pages eighteen page paper just on the art with it from this time period. That's so cool. I know I I really enjoyed it. The plant though didn't make its way to the US market until the nineteen hundreds. Currently eggplant is one of the twenty nine key food crops being investigated by the Millennium Seed Bank and the Global Crop Diversity Trust for development of a climate change hardy varieties. They're they're doing this. By checking out the jeans and parent traits of wild relatives of all of the crops in question and seeing whether like crossbreeding or genetics could help create cultivars that will do well in these our changing climate conditions the first and it but it took awhile for eggplant. Really receive this attention because in some cultures. It's associated I. It's it's like A. It's like a poor person's food kind of thing so yeah. The first reference genome eggplant wasn't released until two thousand fourteen but they're they're working on it and now Emoji News. Yeah Yeah Y'all knew or get through episode without talking about the Eggplant Emoji we add to and we're going to be pretty tame and mature as we are known to be eating this but no no really we are. Yes yes so if you have kids around and don't want them to hear about the Eggplant Emoji Shenanigans because there are a lot of them. Here's your heads up heads up. Yeah okay. So for perhaps obvious reasons. We eggplant Emoji became synonymous with a penis and through that sex to the point. That in two thousand fifteen instagram band. Instagram banned the EGGPLANT EMOJI roof. I love this headline from I feast instagram. Banned the EGGPLANT Emoji Hashtag. Because we're all children pretty much and also. Hey I refused. If you're looking for a minor podcast beyond you're not at all minor show hot ones. I am so here and ready to embarrass myself me too. Absolutely twenty twenty thousand percent like Khalas. We will totally embarrassed ourselves regarding hot sauce and probably lots of other things so the straight we can go as a pair like this in the meantime while we're waiting for that email or call Yes instagram shutdown. Hashtag eggplant Friday for. It's not so. Pg thirteen nature and just to be clear. Instagram did not ban other emojis. The cleft peach the syringe the toilets in our guys especially here in the United States eggplants association with the Penis has been so solidified culturally rather than using similarly shaped emojis. Corn or bananas. People are using other takes on Eggplant Emoji like Hashtag Eggplant. Parm children delightful. I'm you know I I guess. Like like dirty minds Find a way like it's indeed have appreciated the many Late night talkshow jokes about it throughout the years. If you're looking if you're curious the history of the Eggplant emoji debuted in the US in two thousand. Ten introduced by the Unicorn Consortium and adopted a year later on iphones and very very quickly. The eggplant became a text. The reason it was adopted over seas is the source of many Thought provoking paper. There is plenty of ink has been spilled on the Internet about this. If you choose to go read it but if you don't if you don't want to go down that particular we've got the T. L. D. R. Some studies around Emoji found that around the world. Americans were definitely leading the way in the usage of the eggplant Emoji. So some think it's because culturally. We don't have that many associations with it. It's not super familiar. Not a super familiar thing here in the United States Yeah especially not a compared with the The the kind of short squat Italian eggplant and I have to be fair even seen Okay so I was in. I was in an A. K. Owens like a Japanese pub right And I ordered a dish of grilled eggplant and it was one of the the the longer dinner eggplants and it was definitely served in the most phallic way that I have ever had a dish served me that I'm not totally positive. That like the waitstaff. Punking US at this point. Because like Oh my goodness like like the like the skin was peeled back at one tip of it and there is definitely like to round objects placed towards the other end while like slices Like like like around like slices and there was a you know you know the little league like Benito Flake that in steam they kind of do the Wavy wavy which is on dishes yeah. Those were dotted around the base and the circular objects. So it's sort of like hair so that's so that's that happened pretty brazen. Yeah Yup. Yeah I haven't I my my my Google Fu Has not come up with any kind of official dish that is traditionally treated this way. But but also I think there's there's a different sense of humor around that kind of thing in in many segments of Japanese culture And a lot more comfort with just being like Oh man. Body parts are hilarious. Like that's that's great so anyway did it tastes good. You know. I wouldn't order it again. It was a little dry all right noted but but but yes we were talking about Emoji. The squatter kind of Italian version eggplant that that apparently is what is up on android phones and probably doesn't make any sense to y'all android users at all but right. Yeah I'm an Android user but I just I've never maybe I'll investigate after this. I'll say okay. I've never felt the need to use the plan EMOJI. I'll check into I'll just I'll report back. Okay well some others have said that maybe the angle of the emoji or the shape or the colored could be the reason why people just ran with this whatever. The case eggplant Friday was introduced in December. Twenty four th at only five months later said No. They put their foot down from that. We got the Hash Tag free. The ongoing it is ongoing debate in battle her. I also learned through this. Eggplant penis is a medical condition. Yup Yup it has been suggested that those in the medical community are even more confused perhaps the android users about why this is a thing that people are using shorthand for like sexy times. Yeah Being because yeah at play on. It refers to a penile fracture meeting that There's a tear in the tissue of the penis that can result in blood like pooling. And therefore like purple discoloration. It's not not particularly sexy. Times is what. I'm no so does not sound like sexy times at all. No so yeah. That's what we have to say that good as good a place as any to penile fractures. Yup Yup you never know you never know where the research is. GonNa take you It's true it's true but yeah we we do. We do have a little bit more for you. But first we've got one more quick break for weight from her sponsor Here's the thing saving money with. Geico is almost better than playing pickup basketball. 'cause there's always that guy who joins your game. He never passes the rock. He constantly bricks threes. And who completely hack you? And then put his hands up and say no foul no foul with GEICO. It's easy to switch and save on car insurance. No need to fake. An ANKLE SPRAIN. Because you're absolutely exhausted. So switch and save with GYCO. It's almost better than sports. It's a trying time. The challenges all of our basic assumptions. However one thing that brings us all together is our common humanity now more than ever teams must come together and work together to solve big challenges and Trello is here to help trello part of Atlassian collaborative sweet as an APP with an easy to understand visual format plus tons of features that make working with your team functional and just plain fun teens of all shapes and sizes and companies like Google fender and even costco all use Trello to collaborate. And get work done with Trello. You can work with your team wherever you are whether it's at home or in an office no matter what device. You're using computer tablet or phone Trello sinks across all of them so you can stay up to date on all the things your team cares about. Keep your workflow going from wherever you are with Trello try Trello for free and learn more at TRELLO DOT com. That's T. R. E. L. O. Dot Com trello DOT COM Amer back. Thank you sponsor yes. Thank you and we're tried to do like I don't know the kind of new to the EMOJI. World was trying to think of the EMOJI sound but is there if emoji falls noise but no one's there to hear it. Does it make a sound? I don't I'm now. I'm just picturing fallen Emoji in the woods and what that means for all of us see. This was really deep. Thought we didn't know it was going to bt but here we are or maybe it's because we've been inside weeks could be that. I would want who knows who knows. Nikki wrote I just finished your Medieval Times episode and I'm so excited to have an excuse to write in. I've been a fan since the very first food stuff episode Ohio. Hi My family revisiting. Myrtle beach in two thousand eighteen and took our daughter then four to medieval times. We even dressed up like a princess. She was so excited to be going to a castle for dinner and a show got a flag for our team and she cheered for our night and wave their flag enthusiastically the whole time when the night was writing around throwing roses into the crowd. I caught his eye. I swear he gave me a little nod then no fowler. I was annoyed however towards the end of the show the night and the Queen announced that my daughter was to be crowned the Queen of love and beauty. I will attach a picture below and she did. It was super cute. It was pretty late so my daughter looks a little bit but it was an on forgettable experience. Ever since when people ask us she's a princess she corrects them and says no. I'm Queen. She still has her little gal or little crown and sceptre that is so delightful. Yeah yes yeah yeah. No I am a Queen. You get it little girl. That's right great. Get it right address people by their proper titles right exactly the mall. We can do to be polite. Brian Roads although you guys don't sound like pancakes connoisseurs. Thank you for doing an episode on one of my favorite foods. I'm a lifelong pursuit of the perfect pancake. And I wanted to take this opportunity to share few secrets. I've picked up along the way. Be Aware that this could change your life. I add a bit of baking soda to the mix. Yes you heard that correctly in addition to baking powder at about a quarter teaspoon of soda. Second add a dash of vinegar to the milk. Then warm the milk in the microwave for about a minute before adding other wet ingredients these little tricks. Boosts the bubble count and make mixing go easier? A final trick is to use olive oil. As part of the wedding gradients. This will make the for lack of a better term more delicate as with all pancake recipes. Perfection requires some finesse in the stirring and grilling however this particular recipe will help ensure that your pancakes are fluffy. They will also be so tender. Almost fall off the fork. I considered hoarding the Sacred Knowledge. But I thought it was time to share my love of the only cake worthy of breakfast wishing you a happy pank experience in your future. Appreciate that sharing the sacred. Yes that is delightful. Thank you yeah. Maybe it's time maybe it's time for me to give it another go and redeem my pancake history. Hey you've got you've got time on your hands as long if you have flour in your house than I. Now is a great time to attempt pancakes. Maybe all documented go. Yes be scientific. That has never gone wrong before my lost buttermilk BISCUIT VIDEO. Ga- get your get your science goggles on. Get your get whatever form a lab coat you happen to have around. Yes all right. I'm into it. I'm into it before we close out. We did want to touch on since obviously a lot of us are staying inside in these uncertain times. Several of you listeners have written about what you're going through and thanking us for the show. So thank you for listening if any way we can. Yeah any sort of relief or distraction. We're happy to do that. Yeah Yeah and we did WANNA shout out our friend. Julius skinner who've had on the show and we've done a video with over at Route. Kitchens started a crowd sourced document of restaurants in Atlanta where you can buy gift cards so if you're trying to think of ways that you can support local businesses restaurants Farmers there a lot of ways other than you know buying stuff from the restaurant absolutely. Yeah I'm the document has a bunch of tabs where right and it's totally crowd source so people just been put again. I've put in a lot of yeah just restaurants that are still doing takeaway or that have a gofundme as for staff support or yeah where you can buy gift cards to use at a later time and date just to give them a little bit of revenue while they are closed to the public and yeah there's been. I I really want to do an episode. I didn't WanNa do it today because I wanted to have sort of a normal episode for us to concentrate on it and be for y'all to listen to And you know get get our minds off things for just a minute But but yeah I would. I would really love to episode about all of the different ways that this is impacting. Our our food world. It certainly impacting our show. Not just because we're both talking into racks of clothes right now but But you know like like we. Part of our show is is travel and eating at restaurants and I've been thinking so much about all of the beautiful beautiful people who have given us their time and their food over the past couple of years that we've been doing the travel in the interviews and just how they're doing and how their business is doing and Yeah so I don't know also maybe episodes about like comfort food. 'cause that would be nice only are like creative. I want to do some kind of macgyver. How Weird Ingredient. Let's find out. Oh Yeah Ooh yeah like what we found in our pantries and just be like hull. All right let's Today. You know what I found the Durian ice cream I bought years ago. Oh Gosh I'm too afraid to open it in my apartment but maybe try. Oh Man I would feel really bad if if you had to go through that by yourself. I mean. I'm sure it's delightful. I'm sure it's just fine slightly strange as far as like normal ice cream. Flavors go but I'm sure no one would have made it if it wasn't kind of delicious so I imagine it tastes good but it comes shrink wrapped for the smell. That's what I'm concerned about the. I think it'll be fine tasty but fu got small apartment here if I building get evacuated. I'm sure they would really appreciate that. Ice-cream sorry Choi Ice Cream so yeah there there's some we've got some ideas rolling around but we'll we'll be around and we'll be continuing produce content and we're thinking of all of you and we're still yes wanting those suggestions or emails. I know I posted a thing about. What are you all cooking last night in so many of you have emailed and that's fantastic so keep that stuff up. Please do yes. And if you would like to email us you can or email is. Hello at saver. Pod Dot Com. We are also on social media. You can find us on facebook twitter and Instagram at saver pod. We do hope to hear from you and we yes. We posting Any is really good at instagram stories. I'm too old to understand how they work. But but you're great at that and and I've been putting up some links to to stuff like Like like Julius spreadsheet and just other other useful information in these uncertain times so check us out. We hope to hear from you. Thanks as always to our super producers Andrew Howard and Dylan Fagin thanks to you for listening and we hope that lots more good things are coming your way Social distancing slows the spread of corona virus. So if you have a fever dry cough and shortness of breath call your healthcare provider before going in more info at Corona Virus Dot Gov. Let's all do our part because we're all Hashtag alone together. Brought to you by the Ad Council. Syria isn't a country whose name is often associated with hope these days but when. I travelled there in July of two thousand nineteen to a place in the northeast called Rhodesia. I didn't just find fear and violence. I found hope a group of brave feminist revolutionaries fighting to establish a more equitable society. You can hear what I learned there on. My New podcast series. The women's war listen to the women's war on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts.
Ep. 259 - Micropropagating Orchids at the Atlanta Botanical Garden
"The like more infants of plants each month. Well you're in luck in defense. Plants is now offering bonus mini episodes over at our patron page to find out how you can gain access to this bonus botanical content had on over Patriot dot com slash in defensive plants and consider becoming a patron and as always thank you for your continued support of independent plans together. We are helping cure plant around the world episode at a time. Hello everyone and welcome to the in. Defense Plants podcast. The official PODCAST OF IN DEFENSE OF PLANTS DOT COM. What's up this is your host Matt. How's everyone doing this week? He hanging in there. He's staying healthy. I certainly hope so but most of all hope you're getting outside and doing some gardening. It's a great way to relieve some of the anxiety that's facing us really as a global society right now. I can't recommend gardening enough so give it a shot if you're not doing it already. I think today's episode will help relieve even more anxiety. Because it's a really fascinating subject to talk about today. We're joined by Jason Ligand micro propagation in seat bank coordinator for the Atlanta Botanical Garden. Jason's got an incredible job. Growing orchids carnivorous plants in many other species of conservation concern with the inevitable goal of putting them back out into the environment to restore population integrity. For many of North America's rarest plant species Jason's going to show us the INS and outs of what it takes to micro propagate orchids and other plants. And it's one of those conversations that really gives me hope for the future something we could all use a little bit more of be. I don't WanNa keep you from that any longer without further ado. Here's my conversation with Jason. I hope you enjoy all right. Jason League in it is so awesome to have you on the podcast. How about we start off with a little bit about who you are in what it is you do. Okay yeah sure is great to be here. So I'm Jason. Logan and I am the micro propagation and seed bank coordinator at the Atlanta Botanical Garden That is a long title essentially to say that I grow and raise plants. So I'm kind of I think it myself is kind of a plant nursery. Essentially so where a lot of carnivorous plants and orchids and things get their start in the lab It's up to me to take care of those things actually see them grow up and then go out to the greenhouse than back out to the wild a lot of times. Yeah that's got to be a really refreshing feeling and in just an awesome. We satisfy career most of the time. But I'm curious. What brought you to this point. I mean where did you get into plants? Have you always been into gardening? Where did this all start for you so I would say that thinking back on it now? It makes sense why I ended up where I did but I grew up in the rule part of Waterloo South Carolina. It's a town of about two hundred people with no stop lights or anything like that and so a lot of times for fun and things my parents would just say go outside and so I would just go outside and just kind of wander around in the woods all those things and helped my mom with her garden and things that she had and so from a younger age are think back to it. I remember finding Hind cones and finding even Sunflower seeds and things and trying to get them to grow and I just found it fascinating to have the little terrariums inside of a little one liter bottle and things and so fast forward Whenever I went to college I studied environmental and Natural Resources at Clemson University the concentration in conservation biology. And that's whenever I really started to get more into the taxonomy and learning more about the plant anatomy and things like that so I think that that's really what got me into it. And while I was at Clemson I was fortunate enough to study abroad and Equatorial Guinea. I know I. It's the one Spanish speaking country in Africa and so we were on a volcanic island there and all the students had a chance to do an undergraduate research project and so they said to date most really. All students had only done work with the animals on the island and was like what about the plants so they were saying. Yeah well you can study begonias and impatience and orchids and everything is like what about just orchids the heads arguably the largest group of flowering plants. I think I'll have my workload cut out for me. So that's kind of where it started so I did a census for orchids in Moka Equatorial Guinea and came back and intern with the park service with an internship there and kind of fell into place here at the land of Tannock regard and taking care of a first as an assistant horticulturist for the orchids center and then moving into the conservation department. Wow what an excellent trajectory and yeah. It's one of those things that in hindsight it makes a ton of sense but it. It does that those pads seem to connect the right way Even whether or not you realize that at the time or not right. That's fantastic and so you know you mentioned that you're in a lab ended. It is interesting for people that don't realize what it takes to grow and propagate a lot of sensitive plant species like orchids. You think about growing things in a greenhouse setting up trays of soil planting seeds in the dirt. And in going from there but it gets a little more Trickier specific than that for the for the kind of work that you're doing most of the time right right right right so. I would say in the grand scheme of things. It's the same concept. We're still growing plants. But it's just kind of instead of the potting soil. Were just using of media and things instead so the outcome. I would say is exactly the same where we're trying to grow things and propagate them but we're doing it on a smaller scale and I think it would be good to point out especially with working micro propagation which is what we say that we do It's different than tissue culture and some other terms that may be out there. Okay and so for us. I think it's really important for listeners. To kind of know the difference between those two. Please tell us. Yeah yeah so I would say that what we do. Atlanta botanical garden has really micro propagation from seed so orchids themselves Typically have a symbiotic relationship with a fungus and so at some point in their life cycle usually associated with German nation. They actually feed on the Associated Fungi. That's in their roots and for us we have typically grown them a symbiotically so without life essentially so in the wild things they would associate with that microbial fungi. But in our lab regret things a symbiotically because if we did want to reintroduce it out into the wild. We didn't want to put any type of things that weren't there before back out and have a tat translocate any things that way. So whenever we're growing them ace symbolically. It's really important that we don't have any type of contaminants or anything like that in our lab setting whenever we're talking about seed micro propagation. It's important to know that yes is the same as in the greenhouse but how it varies from tissue culture is really about what you start with and what you end up with so whenever you think of tissue culture. It's actually going to be taking a bud or node or piece of a plan and you're going to be propagating it and you're going to come out with propagators that are genetically identical to what you started with. Okay whereas with spore and seed micro propagation. You're actually going to have a genetically distinct individual from what you started with Okay so it's the difference between cloning and sexual reproduction. Essentially right exactly exactly her okay. And there's a good reason to consider that because of the conservation aspect of your work. I mean it's one thing to clone a species to get it out to people that are just growing at his hobby but to properly conserve species. You have to consider all of that genetic diversity that you're either facilitating or potentially eliminating right of course of course and so for us. It really comes down to keeping a exceptional plant records. Essentially and so what that would really mean as we have really honed in on maternal line tracking whenever we're collecting seeds and then keeping track of those maternal lines as they're in the live and then putting them back out and so what that means with maternal line tracking think of one maternal line as one plant. So we're able to track which sees came from which planned and so we can always go back that way while so whenever were sampling for seeds to grow in our lab. We really keep track of each maternal line within one population. So that way whenever we collect the seeds grow them up we can still have a good genetic representation of what was there in that population yet and that it's impressive just to say right out of the gates. That level of recordkeeping is so impressive but so vital to the success of these projects but it also entails a lot of collaboration in at least a working together with people both in the field doing the collections. And then eventually into the lab. And then I'm guessing as soon as they get to the point where they can be reintroduced. This takes a lot of communication all throughout the process. Right definitely definitely. We like to say that conservation has a collaborative science and it is so true because we really depend on our dedicated volunteers and staff members and then partners as well different nonprofits and government agencies and things to actually be able to be out in the field collecting plants while they are in our lab and then actually helping us with the out planting of the same species as well Dang. And how far are you guys reaching in terms of where you're areas of interest for a lot of these plants are I mean we can go into more specifics on a little bit but isn't mostly centered around the southeast or you going farther out You know say past Georgia North Carolina. Those states yeah good question so typically we focus on the ones that are endemic to the southeastern us because we are based here in Atlanta Georgia. However a lot of times species don't obey political borders. So sometimes you'll get the same species that may occur and southern Florida but then also have a population and the Bahamas or in Cuba or somewhere like that and then also there are ones that we look at an order to have across comparison. Wet so species that may not be the same in Florida and the southeast as in South America but that same genus may occur in both areas and say how did the ones from outside of the southeast compared to ones of the same genus and things from other areas of the world. But right now I believe we have projects at Atlanta Botanical Garden that range all throughout the southeast so our plants and their distribution they go from Texas all the way over to Florida and up into North Carolina and Kentucky in that area and then internationally as well. The garden does touch on projects in Cuba. The Bahamas Puerto Rico and currently in Ecuador as well and we're actually starting new collaborations and some countries in Asia and then also back to Columbia as well so we have a pretty far reach right now for what we can do. Yeah that's really impressive. And I mean even just as focus on the southeast and area that is so rich in botanical diversity is task in and of itself but to have that collaboration in those partnerships really allows those those conservation dollars to go a lot farther. Yes it definitely does so for us. Especially we have a limited amount of staff and volunteers and paying serve in order to collect what we need to do the work. We need to get done at really. It's vital that we actually partner with these other people and a lot of times. They will raise awareness of other plants and things that we may not have had on our radar or we may have thought that it was the only thing that was important and then we realized that Oh multiple partners and people throughout the South East actually interested in the same species. Let's work collaboratively in order to make those dollars stretch as far as possible. Run on yes and it is having seen a little behind the scenes and talk to you and your colleagues throughout the last few years it is really impressive and Super Inspiring. But in thinking about what's going on in your lab when you're coming to work every day you know. This is a process that involves some planning and some effort And obviously a lot of sterile laboratory procedures. So why is it that you know we talked a little bit about what makes like orchid seeds very special? Why is it that these procedures have to be put into place? I mean why is it that the average garner can't just grab a bunch of orchid seeds? Sprinkle them in their backyard and boom. You have orchids. Why does it need this laboratory setting I think for us the best way to think of it as the level of record keeping that? We're trying to accomplish here. So I would say that if Someone Word Shoe stumble across a capsule of orchid seed and if that person wanted to plant them in their backyard they could however whenever it rains. Are you guaranteed to know that these dust like seeds or actually where you planted them and would you be able to identify which species you have growing in your backyard and things so a Lotta Times It comes down to that the level of record keeping that she wants to do and be able to scientifically track. How best to grow these species? So what we're really focusing on now is getting to a species. Specific Protocol for a lot of the orchids. That were working so a lot of times that would mean coming into the lab and actually seeing if one species one maternal line even is going to grow better on this media type versus that to see if we need to incubate it and the darker and the cold for eight weeks or ten weeks or sixteen weeks to optimize the grove and germination of that species so a lot of times it may not be as controlled in a greenhouse setting or even at a home setting our backyard. Setting so yeah. So that's what we're really trying to get towards and why we have to have such a controlled environment as because we're just trying to have one variable changed and that scientific method. Yeah Oh man. That's so cool to have brought that up and I never you know I so rarely go to that side of it but it does make so much sense. That you WANNA develop these protocols for species specific projects And then thinking about you know those little nuances that make species unique among themselves whenever people say like Oh now. Biology is all the same. It's neutral theory. It's like Baloney growing plants. They're all different but let's let's talk through the process a little bit more now. I mean you okay. You you show up to work. You have a capsule of work concedes sitting in front of you. What's next I mean. Where do you go from there? Sure sure so I will. Again reiterate that you can grow the orchid seeds symbiotically with that fungus. Or You could grow at. Ason biologically so I'll go more into detail. I about the ASEM biotic mattered. Because that's what we focus on mostly at our space so essentially if we were to get in the capsule of orchid seeds or if we were to get the already loose seeds in we would try to work as quickly as possible just to make sure that we're not losing any viability with that seed so that kind of comes first and foremost keeping good records and then working as quickly as possible because a lot of times just at ambient temperatures and things It may lose some viability so just keep in mind the whole process. We're not running through the lab but we are trying to work as efficiently as possible to get it so where to get it banked and so if we get in the seed we'd ideally want to do a viability tests and so obviously the most useful for me would be a germination tests which we're going to go into. Were essentially going to be planting it and to the TUB but another way to get that initial viability would be to use a tetris. Oem Test where you're actually staining it and then actually a viable tissue would stain red. He'd be able to look under a microscope and see if that embryo is actually red versus and you'd be able to see oh this percent viability of that maternal line. Oh this is eighty percent to start with fresh seed or oh this maternal. I only had twenty percent by ability to begin with so that is really important whenever you go forward. And you've sewn out your seed you wouldn't be really expecting to get one hundred percent germination from all of those seeds but you'd really only be expecting eighty percent or twenty percent respectively. Yeah so we like to go into that viability test. And then after we've done that we divide up the seed from that one line will actually store some for later and future viability tests and we'll go forward with the process and will actually start sowing in vitro so in vitro We talk about that. You may think of Enrico fertilization or something like that but for us in vitro it comes from Latin meaning in glass so essentially we are working and little baby food jars little stays so we're actually working. We're working to sew them in vitro and so what that starts with as after that viability tests and after we've bank some of the seed we're going to actually add a bleach solution to the seed and Adam tween which is essentially going to help break that surface tension because orchid seeds are hydrophobic and just kind of sit on top of the water and not really be cleaned. But again since we're growing them as symbiotically on this little track here we WANNA make sure there's nothing else in that container in vitro that would adversely affect the seed. So we're going to have a bleach solution and then that tween. That's going to really help that. Bleach a stick to the seed and clean and it really depends on how dark the seed coat is so the darker a seed coat is typically the longer you would have to wash it and that bleach solution and then the lighter that seat as the less time it would need but I would say on average. It's usually between I would say about seven minutes up to about twenty minutes and wants that seat is cleaned. Then we would actually a different methods to so it into the container but we typically air on the side of the funnel method and so it's kind of what it sounds like so we have autoclave which will sterilize Oliver Materials from now forward and all these process and will work inside of a lemon or flow hood which has a very fine filter in his pushing out sterile air and we'll have our autoclaves funnel and filter paper that will put up there. And we'll dump the washed seed and to that filter paper and then. Rinse it with sterilized water. So that way. It's as clean as possible. And we're trying to guarantee that no contaminants have gotten in from the air anything and then we will actually use that filter paper to wipe over the surface of the Auger. That's end the container and will disclose it up. Seal it label it and that seed is on. Its way to a symbiotic germination. So that's one method. Yeah that's incredible and I love how much you know having been behind the scenes at the lab and seeing the tours that you've given It is amazing. How much this kind of mirrors what you would see in like an epidemiology lab if anyone's ever had their throat swab and watch them put it on those issues. It is a very similar process. Which is why you want so much sterility. Bacteria and other things love to grow in those situations. Yeah exactly so again. Since we're growing them as symbolically Without that focus that it would usually associated with we have to supplement that nutrition. It would have been getting from the fungus with the nutrient rich media and so in that media. You're going to have a lot of sucrose at sometimes. Charcoal and other ingredients that bacteria viruses as raw familiar with these days in fungi would love to grow on. And so if you were to just take it out in the open air or God forbid cough into you see an array of different things kind of sprout there. So that's why we try to work as clean as possible as sterile as possible to kind of circumvent any contamination. There who a little nerve wracking sometimes Yeah I would say so I would say so I always because our our lab is at about a seventy degrees and things. It's a little chillier than I would like and so it typically causes my nose to run or but it makes me. It makes me a little paranoid about. Am I getting sick? Am I going to contaminate Lincoln but no but as scrutiny as pretty gratifying? The I would say once you actually start to see those seeds germinate and things. It's it's definitely worth it. Yeah you did show me a little vial of sort of later in the germination phase those protocols but for something coming out of such a tiny tiny seat I mean. I can't emphasize enough. How tiny orchids are. I mean what are those early days like Obviously varies from species to species. How long you have to wait to see anything? But you go through those protocols figure out what it wants. One of the early days of organ seed Germination. Look like yeah us. Oh after we've sown the seed that's when it's just a waiting game monetize if there isn't protocol is already established of it needing to be germinated in the dark or in cold a lot of times you don't know so. I'm very happy whenever in people who've come before me have figured out the protocols for how to grow a lot of these things so that I'm not starting from scratch and so you can kind of anticipate Oh. This person had to wait eight weeks. This person had to wait three months that way. You're not biting your nails two days in thinking. What have I done wrong? But a lot of times. What will happen as we so it and we wait so we know where to put it or we don't know where to put it will actually stratified in different ways to try to optimize that faster. Dermot nation and what we're really looking for as for that seed coat to break open. Essentially what will happen is that seed will swell with water? And then eventually it will break open and you'll see that protocol as you mentioned sprout and so that's kind of the first growth further orchid life stage and you will see a little looks like little green sphere that comes out and it has little rise avoids on it and then from that you'll actually see the first true leaf and first true route. Come out of it but as you said Yeah it really does depend on which species it is how long it takes But yeah that could. Just be different. Light cycles of being incubated and twelve hours of light or ten hours of light or sometimes completely in the dark or in the cold and things started to break some of that dormancy right because a lot of these again are from north. America guys have much milder winter down there than we do but nonetheless these plants would go through some sort of dormancy period. They don't want their seeds. Germinating right away and you have to respect that element of its natural history. Really exactly exactly and so I am working in an allow. But I'm glad that I have come from a background in horticulture and filled work and things as well so I can kind of see the picture holistically in order to not be so disconnected from what plant really needs what we're really trying to replicate in the lab is what nature has been doing for eons. Right the the best in sometimes harshest teacher but is this process similar. Then for say you know you showed me some Pine Lily seedlings and then you also had wikileaks. And you mentioned other carnivorous plants. Is this similar process. For other seeds that You're trying to micro propagate in a lab right so again with all of those other things. That aren't orchids. We would be growing them just as I described as symbolically because we're not expecting any association with fungi and yet it's very similar to it. We're going to surface their allies. The seed we'll go ahead and so it and then we will sit and wait a lot of times that variation would be really and the type of media that were putting it on and potentially the light cycle and then the timing that were waiting for those other species to germinate right on the Aso. It's just again thinking about where these plants come from. And what they're doing and kind of following in the footsteps of or maybe doing the experiments needed to create your own footsteps in that process. Ride Very Cool. And it's it's gotta be such a fun combination of tinkering in a lab doing experiments but also knowing that everything you're doing has massive implications for conservation of species. Oh yes so. It's it can be overwhelming to just think of what you're doing and that grand scheme of things. I really feel a grateful for my position and the team that I work with because we are literally saving the world's plans and we are directly hands on working with these rare and endangered species. And so what? We're doing as a department and a lot of our collaborators as well as we're really focusing on those globally and essentially state imperilled and critically imperilled species. And so if you were to look through the window at our lab you would really see a great representation of some of the most rare and endangered species right there. Yeah Yeah I mean I remember you handing me that vial of Pine Lily ceilings. And I'm like all right. This is already more than I've ever seen in the wild and climbing. That's gotta be as feeling you. You must experience on a daily basis is looking into these tiny vitals and going like wow That is so many rare plants in the palm of my hand. Oh Yes oh yes and again. Kind of the the reason why. We do micro propagation and seed banking. It's really it's a conservation strategy if yes you could drive out to the wild and try to show them out there and monitor them out there. But it's just more time efficient and cost efficient to have a lot more plants in a more concentrated area and being able to monitor them and actually change small variables and things as you're growing them and keep better records with a for sure. Yeah and again. Those records as you reiterated since the beginning of this talk are so vital to that conservation component but also thinking about time aspect of this and and you know as an orchid grower. I realize. Orchids do pretty much. Nothing with urgency. It is a slow burn. It's very rewarding. Burn so from say germination to getting them to a point where you could potentially pot them up or move them out to a potential reintroduction side. I mean sometimes I can take a bit of time right. Oh yes so I would say on average with our orchids in the live it would be about two to four years. I would say is how long they would stay in the lab. And obviously we're trying to work to expedite that process but sometimes you can't rush nature and it will just take it three months or longer. In order for things to even start to germinate and then once they've actually grown that next step is they don't stay in the same container. We have to actually do transfers and so open up the sterile containers and actually transfer them to successively larger container that they have space to grow and things. They're not too overcrowded. But yeah on average. It's about two to four years. They could stay in the lab and then after that we would want to harden it off in the greenhouse or at least one season before we would actually plant back out into the wild. Oh so yeah. There is multiple steps between what you do and then eventually getting out. Oh yes so. Yeah after they leave my hands they would go to the greenhouse at. We'll just monitor them there because if you think about it they've been spoiled to death in the lab and they have those ideal conditions or as close to it as possible to really give them the best growing environment and the best chance. But then they're going to have to go back out into the real world where they're going to be faced with all types of potential diseases potential past all of these things and so we don't have any control over at that point but we do try to stage it in a way so that they are protected and it's a logical progression whenever they go to the greenhouse and then of course once we plant them out into the wild were still going back and following up and monitoring them just to see how well they did as well. Yeah and now before we get into sort of that end of it thinking about success rates and whatnot You know we've we've talked that there. Is this other? Method this symbiotic raising these orchids per se with the the the the somatic fungus. They need in. I realized that is by no means what you specialize in How does that process differ? Obviously you're not sterilizing everything when you're trying to get them introduced with fungus and whatnot so we actually are. Oh so that yeah so we actually are going to do it the same way. So how symbiotic varies from the Ason? Biotic would be in what you unoccupied seed with. So you've already sewn it a symbiotically again to ensure that nothing else is in there because you only want to have that one. Variable of what specific fungi? You've introduced to it. And so how it varies is really an obtaining that fungus and you have to have a different media grown specifically for that fungal growth and want you have that fungus cultured. That's whenever you would take a sliver of that media with the fungus and you would put it into that plate that has the seed in it. And so that's the Big Difference. There is that there's that addition of that fungus at a later state but they've all been soon the same way as symbiotically and then you choose which fungus you would actually introduce with it. And it's a lot more complicated a lot of times because there are different taxonomic units that you can use to identify those microbial fungi but without genetic analysis. You don't know exactly which ones they are but again. It's not our specialty. There are other organizations leading the way and that but we are getting more into that just to look at a more holistic approach to habitat restoration augmentation and things as well. But I think that it's it's fascinating but essentially with that. You have to consider a lot of times the Mark Russell. Fungi are species specific. And then other times you'll have more generalists fungi. That may associate with several different species or possibly even different Genera as well and so. It's really important that we understand that interaction and things. But at this stage burgess trying to compare and seeing how that affects overall health and reintroduction of live species right and is it still kind of early days for any sort of conclusions to be drawn there or do you have some ideas that certain ones better than others I would say the the jury's still out and I would say that for us at the Atlanta Botanical Garden. We don't have any anything conclusive we're just in the very beginning stages of forming those partnerships and figuring out what our resources are and what species you really want to hone in on now. That's interesting it is cool to know that that sort of a forefront in the coming you know years decade or so and it's a lot of its ushered in by the advances that we've made in technology with genome sequencing and whatnot but kind of going back to something you hinted at earlier on in the conversation. Is this idea that you don't want to necessarily just willy nilly introduce things whether that be something we view as a beneficial somebody like a Microsoft fungus species. Or you know something up to a potential invasive plant species. We all know how bad that can go so that is a really interesting thing to consider. Is You know it's one of those situations where if a little bit of good more must be better but not always just because there is a mutualist in one region of the world. Doesn't it's going to behave or do good things in another region of the world and you want to avoid any unnecessary introductions right right right and so I think that that kind of really goes back to again. Our institutions role in the whole picture of it is if we can grow them and establish those protocols for Ason Biotic Germination and growth of the orchids. Then at a later date we could science to inoculate it. With the different fungi. Whether it be a generalist more species specific and then even if you think about a SPEC- specific fungus ones that have a larger range for example platoon thera Chapman or something that may range from the eastern coast to Texas and things they may not be the same fungus. That's going to be working with each of those plans. Different populations throughout its range. Yeah so more data required these things get complicated man a lot to consider thinking about that like you said it sometimes can feel overwhelming. I mean is like I don't know I don't know if I should be trusted with these. Well yes I guess I was GonNa let me. Let me rephrase that question is I guess so earlier the conversation you mentioned this idea that sometimes you have the fortune of building on what others have done before you. Maybe they've already figured out the protocol for the species but on other times you have to do your homework. You have to know something about the natural history and run experiments just to see what's going on so when you're faced a your day to day week to week SORTA operations there. Would you say it's more often? You're building on the work of others. You know there's a lot of protocols in place or is it more often that you have to do the experiments and figure things out. I guess what this comes down to his. Have we figured out most of the species you work with or other still many unknowns there are still many unknowns but I would say that most of what I'm doing is going to be built off of that scientific research this already been done and again we're just changing small things and just tweaking what's already been done in order to advance the field a little bit farther so I think the most exciting part about my job is going into the unknown Ed? It'll probably be what makes me go gray prematurely but it's really thinking about where we haven't gone before what haven't we solved. I believe we kind of have a little hitlist. Essentially of which species we really want to work with and we really want to nail down their protocol and it's time and time again that other organizations and our organization included have tried to grow and just haven't been successful with and those are really where we're trying to focus our research and our efforts in things because again we have a comfort zone of yes. We can grow this really well. Sometimes you may even say it's easy to grow but we're trying to grow it better and faster and we're trying to make those plants that are out planted last longer because we're not just trying to do it for our own benefit but we're really trying to do it for the benefit of the species and so yes. There's still a lot more unanswered questions about the ecology of orchids and how they fit in within their biomass and things. And so. That's really where we're trying to take our research to that next level and actually really see long term growth and sustainability of those populations run on and I love hearing sort of that excitement about challenge enjoying the process of it all but also knowing that you have the satisfaction of it being virtuous work. I mean there's no other way put it. This is really important for biodiversity for ecosystem health and it so nice to know that you get to play and do something good for the planet at the same time. Yeah there aren't enough jobs like that. Yeah unfortunately but you're lucky lucky to have one that is so in thinking about this. Obviously this comes down to the species level. I mean you're doing this on a species by species basis so in your experience in propagating orchids in doing work with the Atlanta Botanical Gardens. Out of me. Have there been some memorable species. I'm not GonNa ask you for your favorite because I know how difficult equity could be. But what are some species that Kinda stand out throughout this process in why Okay I would say that I could divide the into a few different categories for different reasons. I would say that some stand out because they're easy to groom. I like those those make my life a little easier so I would think of it on the on the genus level essentially. But if we're thinking about the different Genera out there some that are easier for us to grow would be things like pathway pendulums and fragment the different slipper orchids and I would say even things like Stanhope via from our Fuqua Orchid Center. We have a great species collection. There and I would really say a lot of times. It's because of the number of seeds we get so the ones like the pathway pedal homes and some of the failings and even though staint Hopi those are fun and relatively easy because we have a plethora of seed to work with so those are enjoyable. I would say but I would say other ones could be more memorable just because of their conservation value and things like that I will talk about the fragmented Kevorkian. That's when that has a beautiful purple flower. It's one that's very rare in cultivation and so being able to see those little seedlings growing up in their lab and remembering back to when I worked for the Hookah Orchids Center and we actually hand pollinated at a now. Actually seeing those grow up is really fulfilling so kind of being there long enough to see some of those capsules that I set on those organs. Come through the lab and things three and four years later is really gratifying And then other ones as we said would be the ones of conservation concern so the ones like the ghost orchid that I believe I showed you The ghost orchid is one. That's it's both enjoyable because it's relatively simple but then also just for its conservation concern. It's one of those leafless orchids of that's native to Florida and so that was just a nice easy one but also has conservation value. And of course we have quite a few of our potanin throats at manny. I an integral Labia and having area and Calico gone and things are ones that we work with and those just knowing their conservation value or just fun and fulfilling to see grow up. Yeah all good reasons. All great species to lucky now but it is. It is amazing to think about sort of the timeline. That plans work on. They work on a timescale that humans don't readily and especially a lot of the funding agencies. Don't readily kind of given to and so the fact that you've been there and been through different processes of growing plants in propagating them. That is such a unique perspective to get. And how often do people get to see like you said going from a capsule to a tiny seed to a protocol all the way up to plants that are now getting ready to make their way into a greenhouse or even potentially go back outside? I mean it is. It's gotTa bring so much closer to these species than if you were just kind of in there for a couple of years and then moving onto the next thing. Oh yes I I agree. I would like to think that. I'm not emotionally attached to these plants but I believe at some level I am but I think that's going to be true of anybody who goes into plant conservation is you do. Actually have that connection with what you're doing and I would say that that's true of everyone on my team. And everyone at the botanical garden as well who worked directly with these plans just gives you that deep appreciation to be working hands on with these species that are important. Yeah for sure again. Just having the inspiration of others with similar goals but different skill sets. The menu are really kind of in the heat of battle with this but with best possible players in this game. I like to think so. That's fantastic and then you know from the conservation standpoint. All of this gearing up to hopefully getting plants back out in the wild if their habitat still exists. And you know how much of a hand do you have in that process do or do you at least get to see some of the fruits of your labor going back out into the wild to to potentially reinvigorate a species. That might not be doing so hot. I I don't think they let me out of the lineup. No but I do actually get to get out some so other people on our team as you said with other specialties are really at the forefront of that habitat restoration working on that habitat level in order to augment that and this for example we have people on our team who are trained for prescribed. Burns and actually work with our partners for different state agencies in order to actually open up the canopy and cut down trees when needed and things let more sunlight end so there is that habitat restoration. That goes along with it. It's not I work on a more of a species specific level but I would say that our department though is really looking at those imperilled plants and their natural communities as a whole And I would say for for field work when I do get out of allowed. It would be for things like the seed collection trump's which I really enjoy so we for example. Last year we were funded through the Q. Foundation America and Center for Plant Conservation in order to go out and collect to priority species that are considered globally critically imperilled. So that was the TA- Limb Neom Alessia and dice arranger read forty on and we were able to go out into the field and you talked about. They're not working but again it was a seed collection trump which came through me and things because they needed to be banked And so yeah. That was really fun because as we were talking about there wasn't a protocol rarely emplaced for how to collect a win to collect and all of those things and so we use the Center for Plant Conservations Best Practices and we forward with collecting them that way and then getting them back in a timely manner and banking them and things but that was really fun to kind of be out there and strategize how to collect that representative genetic diversity from across its range at each site as well. That's fantastic in against so cool to be involved in all steps of the process from beginning to end really I think again it kind of it. It's really helpful for me to be there from the beginning through the end things just to kind of not so many changes of hand. I would say along the process. Having that consistency for the plants seems to be really awful yet and that is the point that I think doesn't get touched on. Enough is just how much turnover can damage projects like this even with the best intentions. I mean if you've got different people doing different things even if it's like little tweaks to their protocol You know like you said the fewer exchange enhance sometimes the better. It is in the long run for these plants so it is nice to see this sort of start to finish right and then again it. Harkens back to the partners for plant conservation and so really just making sure anyone interested in that habitat or that species and we kind of agree on the same outcome and things so that way it'll affect what steps we take to get there and she of the same goal right right and so looking ahead. I mean obviously you are in the thick of it. There's always more work to be done. But what are you excited about You know moving forward with some of the propagation work ou so I will say. I'm most excited about getting more into the symbiotic germination for orchids and then also those alternatives to micro propagation. So you have to have me back again for a whole interview about seed banking shirt because only lightly touched on it but essentially for me seed banking comes I. It's the most space efficient and usually cost efficient way to bank genetic diversity. And then if you can't do that because the seats don't allow for traditional seed banking. Then they're going to be alternatives to that and so right now even if you look at the Millennium Seed Bank and their website. You will see that only about sixty percent of the work. They've tested are actually Orthodox which means that they can be stored in a conventional seed bank whereas the other ones. You can't store in that way so one thing that I'm really excited about. As actually looking for other alternatives to that conventional seed bank storing it at negative twenty Celsius but instead looking into cryopreservation. So we're really going more into that. In order to preserve the pollen and then some of those non orthodox seeds as well a while. Yeah Okay so thank you for giving me another episode schedule you in for sure. Those are really exciting techniques and I love seeing technology being put to good use. It is often you think about some of these things a sort of leg nature in back to Earth but oftentimes technology can be very important tools in making this process far. More sustainable and far more doable. I guess in the long run right. And I think that's all about is really trying to be at the forefront of applying all of these innovative strategies in order to conserve plants. A little bit better excellent. What else do you have going on? I mean obviously you. You have a varied amount of interests. What else is going on in your life. Yeah so as if that weren't enough outside of the garden Also act in the right and things as well so just like you might actually trying to raise more awareness for plants and just that kind of intrinsic value of them so actually been writing series called platonic plants and it's just a short video format in order to bring more awareness to plants and actually connect people better with plans as you may realize in the midst of the pandemic one of the safe alternatives is getting back out into nature and things like that and so. I really am trying to focus. On writing episodes that people can really use in order to improve their. Id skills just learned. Quick facts about The plants that are around them out there. Oh that's fantastic in Is this something that you're not yet ready to release or is there a place people can go looking for it where we are with it so right now it would be on instagram? So it would be at botany blackout would be handle and there you'll see all the updates westwood. This little pandemic has put a wrench into plants. Still be coming out later. This year tastic while put up links to all the relevant stuff on the show notes for this episode. But Jason. Thank you for giving us a light into this incredible process of protecting plants. An insuring that at least these species will be around for future generations to appreciate enjoy. So thank you for all the work that you're doing. Thank you for talking with us today. Now it's my pleasure my pleasure and if anyone would like to follow up on the work that we're doing you can also follow the Atlanta Conservation and Research Department on Instagram at Atlanta. Bg Conservation as well fantastic. Make sure to link that one too. Sure wonderful we'll jason again. Thank you so much for talking with us. A Real Pleasure. My pleasure thank you. All right cheers rate. That's about it for this week. What an incredible job Jason has. It's really cool. And if you ever find yourself at the Atlanta Botanical Garden do what you can get on a tour of the micro propagation lab or at least walk through. Npr in the windows to see what that situation is all about. It's really cool to see. I think Jason for taking time out of his busy schedule to talk with us and I wish him all the best moving into the future with all of these incredible rare plants that he's working with for leaving today. I WANNA give a shout out to the latest producers on the show a big shoutout to Kendall inva- Bob. They went over to Patriot. Dot Com slash in defense plants in signed up at the producer credit levels? So they're getting all of the benefits that you could possibly get from our patriotic including all of those bonus episodes each and every month if you want to help support the show and ensure that it can keep coming out each and every week on a regular basis please consider signing over. A Patriot is the best way to give the show a future. I couldn't be doing it without these people. And I'm extremely fortunate that so many people are continuing to give to the show despite what's going on in the world right now so. Thank you very much to everyone who has donated showing their support. If you can't financially support the show I completely understand that the various tell your friends get other people to listen. Word of mouth is one of the best ways that podcast can grow but yeah keep tuning back in so many great things just over the reason. I say that agent every week but it's true I'm so excited for all the content to bring you each week but until then I hope you're saying safe I hope you're staying healthy in Yeah hanging their best. We can do right now. We're all in this together until next week. This is your host Matt signing up audio everyone.
BTS #24 Angus of The Real Seed Co. on The New Taxonomy for Landrace Cultivars (EDITED)
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Only podcast you can do that. At Patriotair Dot com slash about cannabis. Everybody's Jason Curious about canvas podcast. Just want to give you a brief introduction to this episode because I think it will provide a little more context going into it. That hopefully will help you. One understand the content of the episode. A little better. And hopefully we'll help you appreciate some of that content a little more as well. So in this episode I'm speaking with Angus of the real seed company again for the second time on the podcast. And if you haven't heard our first episode. We first spoken episode. Three of the podcast and we spoke all about cannabis taxonomy in the twin biodiversity of cannabis varieties and the illusion of genetic diversity among modern cannabis hybrids and fast forward a little bit of time. A paper came out in this year. Twenty twenty that directly addressed these issues and that paper is called a classification of endangered high. Thc Cannabis domesticates and their wild relatives by John mcparland and Ernest Small. So we both read this paper. Were emailing each other. Had all sorts of ideas. We're really excited. And we decided to get together for a podcast up so to talk through our thoughts about the the paper after two the episode after we recorded it we both realized that one we failed to even mention the title of the paper we were talking about were and then We also didn't really summarize a lot of key points of the paper until about halfway through our conversation and so we a little worried that anyone listening. That's coming in from With no context that they might get a little lost so just a minute or two here. I'm going to very very quickly. Summarize what this paper presents and then I'll leave you to the episode to listen to US talk about it so in this paper which I'll repeat the title again it's a classification of endangered high. Thc Cannabis domestic. It's and their wild relatives within this paper. Mcpartlin and small present. A TEX nominal model for cannabis away of categorizing cannabis that consists of one species cannabis sativa two subspecies sativa and Indica Cannabis Sativa subspecies Sativa Cannabis Sativa subspecies Indika and within the subspecies. Indika all of the high. Thc varieties of cannabis fit within their among several varieties. The subspecies indika contains four primary varieties. That have been identified so far and within our extended conversation. You'll hear that we have some ideas. How there could possibly be more varieties? But these four varieties of cannabis sativa subspecies indica are as follows variety. Indika which would be most similar to what we colloquially refer to as Sativa is be true South Asian domesticates that have narrow leaflets with a leaflet linked to with ratio of greater than six which means that the link is at least six times that of the with and then we have variety. Himalayan this which would be kind of the wild type version of these indicators. Then we have righty AFGHANICA which would be Kinda true Central Asian domesticates and what we locally would of refer to as indicates and these would be plants that have leaflet linked to with ratios of less than six so these leaflets are wider and broader. And then we have variety aspirin which is kind of the wild type version of these afghanica plants and basically this paper proves presents a botanical key for identifying these plants in the hope that by being able to organize these plants in identify them we might be able to preserve the genetics and ultimately preserve some of. This joined. Alling biodiversity and really. This paper is a call to action for people to really start wrapping their heads around how to talk. Categorize these plants so that we can get to the project of saving this biodiversity so in a nutshell. That's what's going on with this paper We're not gonNA talk much about Cannabis Sativa subspecies Sativa But if you really want to know the drill down on that it's basically Two varieties of subspecies sativa their sativa and spontaneity. Espontaneo would be what most people would refer to as Rudra. I'm not going to get into the details of that read. The paper read the supplementary material that goes along with mcparland smalls paper in. It'll expand more on that but our focus is really on subspecies Indika and these high. Thc landrace cannabis varieties. So that's that's pretty much it. And as far as how this relates to the cannabis you're going to get into dispensary as Angus will say in the episode It means very little. All of the cannabis that's in the medical markets and adult use. Markets are all extreme hybrids. And this whole idea of differentiating indica. Sativa and everything. It doesn't even make sense in that context So that's a summary of the context for this once again. The paper that we're talking about is a classification of endangered high. Thc Cannabis domestic gets in their wild relatives by John mcparland and earn a small. I recommend you look back paper up and read it before listening to this episode if possible and also go back and listen to episode three of the curious about canvas podcast. Rican here the first conversation that Angus and I had about landrace cannabis varieties And biodiversity and all that and with that I will lead to the episode so thanks so much for tuning in and as always stay curious. You're listening to Jason. A curious about canvas podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in once again at today. I'm really really stoked. I am joined with one of my early guests and friends that was able to talk to you. At the earned the early days of the podcast angus from the real seat company. Thanks so much for being willing to come back on. We've got some exciting stuff to talk about It's great to be. Yes exciting paper this so yeah looking forward to yes so what? We're going to be talking about today. Relates to our first conversation that we had Which is all about Why first conversation went in a lot of directions but Talking about cannabis taxonomy. So there's a paper that came out just this year By John mcpartlin and earn a small. Both of whom we talked about in our first conversation and specifically this relates to Landrace varieties of cannabis and Talks about the importance of preserving those genetic so This is really come around full circle. And I'll go ahead and prepare people say that between the actual paper and the supplemental material. There's about one hundred fifty pages worth of material the centrally a book but Angus. What before we get into the nitty gritty details of what was present here and My thoughts in your thoughts and kind of how it meshes with your experience in the field. what were your initial impressions upon reading this paper? Safari taxonomy goes. My instincts is always being to defer to the experts as far as I can see on a small Israeli the taxonomic to defer to. He's some specializes in an all kinds of different places. But he's been publishing about it since the early seventies legislation is based on his work So I was fascinated to see that he has come round to the view that the two main domestic domestic the to the tweet. Sort of Genesis who've sub-species Indika now do merit formal recognition this As varieties in a stricter botanical sense. And you know they. They've done between mcparland more done the work to justify that clearly. They've been looking at Harry collections. All around the world it seems and I think they say about one thousand one hundred different accessions. They've they've looked at and yet clearly satisfied that this is justified. And this is more than just sort of pedantic exercises actually quite important to get people to stop taking conservation of these plant seriously if you look on the genesys database. I think there are about one thousand four hundred accessions of that kind of a sativa. The species in NJ banks around the world but out of those as I forget the exact number but it's a piddling amount this full role. Something accessions of sub-species indicator. I mean it's ridiculous five. I'm sorry five right. Yeah so this is a serious situation. I mean this is an incredibly important plants. And it's it's it's a. I think they actually understate how critically endangered it has mostly what they talk about sort of anecdotal examples of people. Introducing Hyper Non Chino hybrid most of the examples. They gave a from the seventies and eighties so an mostly Simpson folk people bringing. They talk about one guy. I forget his name. Who is who says some Mexican seats to Afghanistan in the in the early seventies and then they they mentioned that I think Chanaka someone talks about bringing them Afghan landrace in the pool in the eighties but I don't talk about. This is the whole seed industry with the online online seat industry. And if you look at the the shipping lists of your average dot show seed company. It would make for horrifying reading. I mean the the the online sort of Internet commerce is just arriving in places like India and Southeast Asia So I I I mean. I'm just like some huge business park to the type of in Hyderabad India. I think so there will get up for on on coming to India so in the next couple of years. God knows what's going to happen. I mean it's it's something you already started people shipping hybrid seats into India and places. But I mean we're we're looking at a time and it's Yeah it's a serious situation so this part of getting people to take it seriously. I think it's quite important parts of it to persuade. Some people like the Millennium Seed Bank. And so and so you've got one one accession of Cannabis. I think it's Yeah they looked at a lot of different factors because she's changed so they they looked at not just morphology not just Chemical profiles but also genetics and when they looked at chemical profiles they focused on tacb ratios because concentration can be influenced by all sorts of factors. So that doesn't really make sense to focus on concentration but THC CBD ratios are more genetically controlled. So they focused on that. They also looked at Turpin Lloyd's which I thought was great And we'll talk more about that in a minute. But they notice patterns around How certain varieties seem to lack key Types of turpin turbines. That gives them their characteristic. Smells that people. Throughout you know Millennia have have noticed as cannabis has been evolving and changing That in certain areas of the world canvas seems to be more sweet in other areas of the world canvas seems to be more skunk. And you know Bets are things so they they kind of honed in on that But I'll kind of pass it off to you if you want to kind of explain The new tax And particularly also. I'm interested to hear how this has affected your work in collecting these land restraints. Because what I noticed. Was you immediately after this paper? Went Out Tried to provide clarity around your seed catalog to help. People understand what you're seeds would be classified as under the new model You know to the best of your ability which I thought was a very Very cool thing to do. I didn't notice any other companies doing that I still haven't noticed. Any other is actually doing it. And especially as quickly as implemented that change so you mind explaining what's changed and And what do people really need to take away from this? If they're really interested in trying to understand the differences in these varieties and the new names that they're gonNA see under website and that's sort of thing. Yeah I mean I've tried and myself Layman's way to apply that new formal Tax To what I've collected And it and it's tricky because the areas I've been to an a no well Such as Pakistan for example writes at the intersection of where Indika meat. So I mean just to just just to give the actual names The wild the wild type Central Asian populations the wild type of putative ancestral populations that cooling via aspirations and then the wild type South Asian populations calling him a Himalayan sis and the the meeting points of those two is more or less somewhere around the Kunar river which separates Afghanistan and Pakistan. Now in my experience up in the mountains in northern Pakistan. Most of what we've seen the volume lances. That's not to say there on the aspirin type that is in with the the eight. Lancia late stories is the term bland late leaves classics. That have indicate shapes. I'm sure they are up into trouble because I know other people have seen them up there. But what I experienced back in two thousand and seven when I was there in Pakistan. It made me very confused because I'm not a botanist. So what I was looking at this whole industry thing. It doesn't make sense to me but that's because I was in Pakistan whether these two types of plan meat so I was saying a lot of intermediate I was saying a lot of intermediate type domestic kits which she she seemed to be. Didn't seem to fit neatly into this. This collectible Indica Sativa thing and of course the reason for that is. This is basically a zone of maximum diversity for for sub-species Indika and a lot. I after a couple of years it dawned on me as much as Clark mentions in his work The domesticates hybrids between land races. In fact many land races probably most land races are hybrids between. Landrace is but what you have in some way like trial in in Yakking Valley. Which is the upper reaches of the river? I if you grow seeds from there you'll see a whole spectrum within one landrace as it were. You'll you'll see these big sativa type plants. You'll see these old indica-type plants with the classic indicated leaflets and this is going out one accession of seats. You understand so you village like patron gods in in your couldn't which is the famous Chiara's producing you take one batch of seeds from one former that you grow them out you'll see a whole range of variation and that's because these pay it to be hybrids between nine rices and you'll also see very very big for me too tall plants within the Qatari leaflets. And not being honest. I was baffled by this. Of course if I was a botanist I realized that what I'm looking at is Is is clearly a hybrid population and it but this is nothing new. If you look at the list of accession on the supplementary material for this new study you'll see that they were seeing these intermediate forms from accessions back in the nineteenth century and an even by was finding them so he collected plants in. What's now called Nuristan which is also just down just down if you if you follow the Kunar River from its source in your couldn't down through to trial into Afghanistan you get to this place Nuristan. Which was called Cafe Stan? And and in one of his accessions I think it was a domestic from nor stan was clearly an intermediate. is clearly a hybrid between an indicate domestic to domestic as you'd expect because this is the frontier between these two populations from Central Asia and South Asia. So yeah now now. It will make sense to me puzzled. And also the other thing I'd screwed up was I was relying too heavily. On April of by Bobby lobster counts of his own material and he and he's notoriously inconsistent and he changes his mind about things and he hedges on things. And you'll have one idea at one point and another another point but I assumed because he said in his forget if it's the nineteen twenty nine or the One thousand nine hundred twenty four account anyway in his earliest accounts of his expedition. He he says I hadn't seen these UPLANDS Lonzo late as an indika leaflets. Anywhere else in Afghanistan except for in the Kanawha Valley. Wed what he's growing cannabis now. He was wrong. Of course people probably would grind kind of around but he also growing in the his accessions from northern Afghanistan. When they were out by Sarah Cova they actually did show indica-type leafless so when I looked at his own tables and stuff in his paper he was he was saying all the only the only the only plants listed as having broad leaflets with the Chinese ones making length measurements for the Afghan Afghan. Landrace is the doesn't mention anything about the wisdom of the leafless and all the shape well he does mention something about the shape. He says he claims nothing else. Had these plans lately Nathan. Actually when when mccollum went and looked in the area He he In the Vale of Barium he found the Lo and behold that she did have the classic indicate leaflet shape. Just decide what we're talking about. The shapes small apartments have full Mo- system for establishing what an Indika leaflet shape and involves measuring the fan leaves as I called a at the base of the in fluorescence. You you look at the central leaflet and then you take a measurement of the whitest points of that leaflets and how far the on the leaflets. So they do a ratio basically. I six to one or something anyway. I'm anything involving numbers completely throws. Maye but they've got a formal basis for establishing Wasser. What the ratio is yeah? It's IT'S A. I got the paper here just to refresh my memory. It's the The link over the width is usually greater than six. So over six to one that ratio of Linked to with for a canvas not subspecies Indika yet. Anyway I mean it's it it's it's sort of I think a lot of people in the back of their mind when they when they were looking at smalls previous system where you just lump Indika Culture Jen's and sativa call to Jen's into this one subspecies indicate INDIKA. They also have a niggling which is the the arguments as well supposed interference. Indica Sativa as opposed domesticates. So the the the conservative only small original argument was that both domestic. It's so they're not meriting that married former classification varieties of their own. But I was thinking well this this leaflets shape that leaflet his surely not something that people of selected for its surely negative of natural selection of of something that's happened independent independence of humans. Now I mean 'cause there are many other traits of of sativa cult agendas and Indika Jensen clearly are the results of of Of Human selection such as Afghan has plants have these resin glands that very easily detach from the Braxton from the leaf. And that's clearly something that's been favored by centuries of sitting sitting hashish for example. I mean there's as many other aspects of it but clearly indicate human involvement. But anyway you know this is. This is finally solve the puzzle for me. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Mcparland had already Pointed out I think back in like two thousand eleven or something longtime ago now He pointed out that our vernacular needed to change in that. It would make more sense to call these things Afghanica. But now it's really getting into more formalized way where you can actually apply dichotomies key and identify these things. And then what we refer to as Sativa plants are now considered These this variety of Indika and then Between those we have the domesticated of versions of those and the quote unquote wild type versions of those so just to just to kind of make sure that we synthesize all that in case anyone listening has gotten confused at all the drug type varieties. You've got four varieties. The two main ones to pay attention to is what used to think of. As indika should be formerly called Cannabis Sativa subspecies Indika Variety Afghanica. And then what we normally talk about locally a sativa you should think of Cannabis Sativa subspecies Indika variety. Indika just stop you. Sorry but the crucial thing is. Is that this. This old applies only to authentic land. Races like yes. Yes yes yes. None of this applies to Indica Sativa. As as as you you buy the coffee shops the dime will you know in a in a dispensary in America because we'll Miss Sutton all of Hybrids if these two full varieties so this is only applying to Asian populations Yeah sorry to interrupt you piano very very very important. Point to note That's something I wanted to get into. Because in our first conversation we talked about how most of the cannabis that the majority of people in the world are exposed to Has such little diversity at all allusion of diversity and I was really pleased to see that may Portland and small called that out. And they explicitly talk about that All of this cannabis flooding around that. Yeah the work locally calling indicates a TV in the dispensaries usually that's only Defined off of You know the TCCB D ratio or someone. Subjective experience they list. I love that they list example of AK47 example of a strain that has won both the Sativa category and the indika category in Some of these competitions Be An excellent point. I mean anything anyone. Listening that Is getting cannabis from a dispensary and the hear people talk about indicates all of that is? I mean it's just noise really Because these plants have been hybridize so much. Especially because a prohibition You know has really driven that To a huge extent. Also just beyond prohibition just for hundreds thousands of years the way that humans have selected these plants we've lead ended up Harbored izing them to the point that there's no meaningful distinction between them when it comes to this level of formal categorization and everything The hope is an the that they do sort of Hedge on this in the paper. The hope is that there are still nine races out there and I might experience I think points to that still being authentic landrace as populations out there that do still merit full recognition and a representative of authentic domesticates. So that's another question and I interrupted you before you got to with the the uncessary putative ancestral of aspirin. Which is the virus Briamah? Which is the the wild type populations that say wild type because it way to solve head John? Weather as a truly operational indigenous still or whether that representative of the mixing between domestic and and aboriginal populations this aspiration the Himalayan says and the you know the the big question is the true aboriginal population still left. An small Portland are hopeful that they might they might be places in South Asia for example where you might still have the virus that hasn't been affected by exchange of pollen with domesticated populations. If there are probably somewhere way in the far northeast of India. I ruined shop. Asha somewhere but is far as the night doesn't have much of a history of cultivation as for Virus Burma the ancestral indika while type relations. I think it's pretty unlikely that you're going to find true. Aboriginal populations of an and the reason for this is the again. If you look at that Amazing Matt you see it going from the Tian Shan up on north of northwest China. Cutting down through the pioneers down through the Afghan Hindu Kush Where they have the accessions of this far pariah type plant all of those regions regions. Where that's been kind of cultivation for Millennia so the likelihood of That being true true aboriginal on a pure populations of Varas Roy Moore is pretty limited. The site goes for the For the Indian lab from Indian Kashmir down through a Macho and Khan pool all the way down through into secure minutes of Baton Pretty Much. All of those regions have hissed very long history of cultivation. Going back at least to and thousand years so the chance of that being a wild type plants the trudy aboriginal this is you know that hasn't happened yet. Exchanges of genetics with domesticates is very very small indeed. That sort of brings me to some criticism. What questions I have about some of that paper. But maybe we can leave that 'til later but just to say I mean I thought it might be worse kind of sort of zooming out a bit just because I know from my experiences is very difficult to conceptualize this rather to sort of understand. This will without contextualising it. So I mean this this whole process of the creation of south as it were. This goes back sort of fifty seven million years or so. When India wasn't even parts of Eurasia? It was drifting off the coast of Australia somewhere. And then it. It kind of floated in and smashed into Sumatra smashed into Burma and then eventually fifty seven million years ago or fifty million years ago actually smashed into Tibet. And then again this huge price of the Himalayas and the Tibetan plateau lifting then this this caused this radical change in the climates of Eurasia of Central Asia and resulted in the creation of a stat climate on the other side of the Himalayas in places. Like Ching Ching Hai which is northeastern Xinjiang. This this was what then caused I'm cannabis wished that this point exist to diverge from its nearest ancestor. Hillis that the hub. And so that. That's that's sort of put this in context and then when we're talking about humans humans didn't even exist at this point. We didn't come into the story until the very very very tiny fraction of it. He so so so so humans on even featuring this yet and so from from Shanghai. Which is it's once will amdo so north northeastern Tibet and this is A step climate. You've got created to from from that. Interestingly it appears that kind of this kind of headed off Westwood's I probably the seeds in the stomach birds migrating and this kind of thing. Anyway Phosphor would another forty million years six million or so years ago you find. Cannabis suddenly appears on the Western step over near Europe and it was considerably late to that eventually ended up in China proper. And I'M GONNA have to check my night six. I remember when it was but it first appears in China. Oh by the way just just to clarify. It was twenty seven point eight million years ago that kind of diverged from the hub. Yeah okay six point three million years ago. It's made it across to Europe as in Europe in the sense of the western step so it was kind of Ukraine Russia types at a very southern and southern Russia Barry and then a two point six million years ago when you I find it's in China proper in a Ningxia. So humid went by the time humans rock up into Eurasia sort of sixty thousand or one hundred thousand years ago six years ago kind of is across much of Eurasia except for Southeast Asia. But you know this again. Fits INTO PHILLIPS PICTURE? Cannabis was probably domesticated several different sites. Because it's certainly was available to be domesticated at different sites it across Eurasia. But yeah so that. Is it some sort of context but again when we're talking about actual domestication? That's even later still. This is what we're into the Holocene now kind of ten thousand years ago when it could even possibly have happened. But there's no evidence really happening until I mean you get to some fines from Japan about an if I can just switch to now because I find it hard to think in thousand years ago once we get into this so so the beginning of domestication of of food crops and stuff. We're talking ten thousand in the vans and stuff and similarly in China. But you don't see any kind of doesn't really get any indication that there's no evidence yet of being domesticated properly until sort of let me check but I think it's like in in in the in over in the sort of Towards Europe it's talking about kind of three thousand the issue that kind of point. That's that's that's some some domesticated pollen probably. It's with the young neier culture there. Sorry go back like twenty seven hundred. Bc I know is one number. Yeah where they a and I. I think it's been put. I'm sure it goes further back than that as far as what we have actual pretty good evidence for. Yeah we know we can go as far back as three thousand B C. Yeah it's Yeah you're right it's That's the fines in in young show in in China by which sort of Of the young shall culture sorry in China which they've got definitely clearly domesticated seats but even Nisus kind of tricky because That was suddenly. A condom hunter-gatherers themselves probably onto sleeping domesticating cannabis. Because of the type of to is. It was really well suited to that. 'cause the because it naturally grows on them kind of a nitrogen rich soils next to Rivers and stuff and that was it natural environment it tended to lights to grow so when people would have been hunting and drinking and stuff they probably would have picked up. Plants hunter-gatherers picked up plants and then transported them back to their camps where then would have found already favorable environment in kind of rubbish heaps in around you know where people were crapping and stuff so already have this unconscious Process of people bringing back the types of plants. They like to the Living Areas So one of the radiology findings from Japan of eight thousand BC. Interestingly the seats have no clear wild traits they appear to be partly domesticated. So you already this kind of likely to have this sort of unconscious domestication. And and that that traits of the sleeping domesticated goes with the seeds staying inside the employer. Essence is a which is nutty that process take centuries for A crop A wild plum that's being cultivated become a proper domesticated as an lose traits that process itself. Take Century. So yeah. I'm sure you're right. It actual domestication is likely to been happening a lot earlier than the actual evidence we have for it right. Yeah and and something I wanna you know point out to. Is this this whole idea of You know trying to figure out if there any Examples of true aboriginal cannabis. You know still in existence This is something that doesn't just affect cannabis. This is something that You know a mcpartlin. A small point out that this is an issue affecting All domesticated plants that. We have today that there are very few domesticated crops that we work with now that we can go and and see know a specimen of the true aboriginal type that would later be turn artificially selected into what we see now shifting gears just a little bit something I wanted to ask you about. I wanted to see if something at your experience with land races there so they they mentioned So we mentioned at the very beginning that one of the things that they examined were teens. Turpin Lloyd content and Organoleptic characteristics of these landrace varieties of cannabis and in the paper. They say that South Asian land is often smell or sweet whereas Central Asian land races. Give off an accurate or skunk aroma. And they're basing that off of some Robert Cox work in the in the eighties. Has that been your experience that that distinction is is that strong that if you find land races from South Asia they're going to be sweeter than those you find from Central Asia that that'd be skunk. I mean I know the you. We mentioned in our last conversation that cannabis grown in these different areas of Asia are used for different purposes and they have different organic traits and things that some you prefer to You know extract the resins and use separately whereas others like the Ganga of Fridays. That you know you would just roll up in smoke in the joints. And they'll be pleasurable and flavorful. So I wanted to ask you about that how that matches your experience. Well Yeah I. I was slightly concerned when I when I thought through earlier one of the states at the extent to which he just stunned a smoke Barth Gone Ika in the Afghan plans as but because I have friends who who cultivate these landrace as we've been getting from Afghanistan and Pakistan. Do Smoking that way and say it's very nice so I I don't have the accents which I've been any way so empirically investigated this stuff. Mostly what I'm doing connecting and talking to people and reading books and stuff. I'm not in a position to grow these plants myself. I rely on feedback from customers and stuff. So I'd say it's a it's a very haphazard of getting a picture of it but certainly the those particular toppings but alcohol set out alcohol. That's definitely something those skunk aromas are definitely something that in my experiences associated with central-asian when I say centralized being sort of as the Hindu Kush basically in my experience of the Hindu Kush is purely an to trial and then being in power and getting a Afghan and hashish from the Pakistani Hindu. Kush and stuff whilst I was there and being trump says friends of mine like Lucas. Eventually Aniston and other friends who work with who who who know the area have contacts in the area so I haven't sort of unlike Lucas is one of the people who collects for me. I haven't supports around in fields and stuff and smell the plants and things but yeah everything was saying in terms of what we've collected it. Fits that pattern? Absolutely the One thing that the The size a also a lot of what we were seeing. It doesn't pay we have. We've got pure Veronica's from from from the sessions that we got from the we will half a lot of what seem to be an Var into Kafka hybrids so the domestic. The Afghan sows cool. Mazaar-i-sharif will Missouri Obamacare It appears to be a very large blunt in which A one extreme variation on the website has can have very Sativa tight knit flights and be very tall and other other extreme from the same accession you can have extremely Indyk type. Arsenic appliance. So an how exactly the Var Indika Genetics or even. Maybe not. Maybe they're maybe this inferences from hemp cultivation in his stan hyper diced know. We don't we don't know yet but this is another question in my mind about the The patent they paint with the Forest Brian and volume length system this reproductive barrier between the two of them It's clearly made that case for that with the accessions but I wonder to what extent what extent is. It's the case that it seems to me. The violence is can survive the on that northern extent. There's some indication of that in in the accessions they've vandalized but you know it's The question is can aspirin paraina so across south southwards. A bet one example from From Kulu valley which suggests that it can but I wonder where can I mentioned about secularity? So what extent I don't know what I wonder is can the see what you might have is tip plasticity. So you know this. Genetic forest rations as they sort of moved on was into India. Perhaps they just themselves differently. I excite expressed themselves in a more lance. This way I mean that seems to you. What's happened when you when people have introduced hybrid genetics into into Milan or in the modern era? Is they end up to the planning? And and with with its. I don't want to understand what how much of a bad thing that is the diversity but the fina typically. They expressed themselves in a in a way that's appropriate to the to the climate. But I like wrestling. What you're asking me you just touched on something that In the paper they talk about and in in my book I mentioned. But just how quickly cannabis plant no matter how domesticated it may be? How quickly can naturalise to whatever location? It's in and start to exhibit While type traits which makes all of this work that much more complicated but Within forty and fifty generations of of cannabis plant. You can have it. Dramatically changed. How expressing itself going going in one direction that we know that from a domestic to Awadh Site Sina Type Right. How long it takes to go from a wild type phenotype to a domestic. Because I have. She's but but yeah it's it's very I mean I've seen For example someone Who who who put some of the Lebanese we got from Bekaa Valley which incidentally is definitely a place. Lebanon where you've had a lot of hybridization going on quite possibly between a Hem and between Veronica I'm between for Africa speaking to people in Spike into a in Lebanon who site that was definitely a particular individual they can name names. Who bought Afghans seats to Lebanon in the Seventy S Similarly another friend of mine talks about bringing 'em balcony genetics. From stone to to the Pakistani indie Kushner seventies and knows the names but anyway so these are definitely high hybrid since at least the thirteenth century had hybridization between land races and we. I- customer growing out Lebanese a very humid environment Against my voice but anyway with growing out an exhibit CDs extremely narrow makes sense. Yeah Yeah and Whereas other people in new riding them in sorts of places like southern Spain in a very dry climate and up in the mountains expressing these much more sort of Afghanistan's leaflets. So instantaneous KENO typic- plasticity A. It's what you'd expect from a plan that's evolved high up in the mountains where you have these extremely changeable climates Yeah exactly and and to anyone listening in case we haven't made it super clear because there's a lot of things sometimes. We have in our minds that might not quite catch onto that that climatic difference the reason it's going to influence the not just leave structure below also like node links and that sort of thing that if you're in a very humid environment the plant needs to breathe so that it doesn't get moldy and you know get attacked by a fungal pathogens and that sort of thing whereas in drier climates plants can afford to be more dense much more leaf tissue and everything Because they don't have that selective pressure against them the May like so slow transpiration rates and yes things an and the Yes or no no. Yeah I just wanted to make sure that was clear. 'cause we mentioned several times about varieties moving into like the monsoon areas. All these different things. I just WanNa make sure that anybody listening. In case they hadn't quite piece that together yet that they understand why the morphology is going to be affected by those climates. And and what you just talked about about You know These varieties being moved around. I I thought it was really cool. How the paper in one paragraph talks about I mean it's cool in a academic intellectual sense. It's devastating and another level but Talking about how People would brag about how they brought the example. I'm looking here. Is They brought Mexican gold into Afghanistan in the early seventies and how they What was the other one that they were bringing central? Asian Land Races and South Asia In the seventies in Nepal in the eighties and Jamaica and Thailand and This It's it's interesting. How OUR PERSPECTIVES? Change the bore. We learned that at one time that seemed like a really awesome exciting thing to do taking land races from one place and bringing them to another place and seeing what they do together and now we're looking at that band like. Oh Jeez what have we done? You know. Sort of thing of You know we've we've so heavily contaminated These gene pools with other land races. And I think that's something that Sometimes people that aren't in so involved in in all this work It can sometimes be harder to appreciate because someone might think like well. He take to land races together. Like you know you've got these interesting genetics and you'll get something else interesting So I could see why in the seventies with the understanding that we had at the time That was exciting But now looking back and seeing these things Mexican Gold Panama read all these other strains that were so popular in the sixties and seventies that thing got cross bred in Afghanistan these critical regions. I mean the thing I'd say with the Afghan one is the only reliable source. They quote that a rival that buys learn. His name is the guy who claims he did it. Pietri the one who they quotes is also talking about. I'm sure it's just a guy who'd read that book. He's not he's not as anecdotally from what hold is is not a reliable character but then the The An Italian guy who also talks about it. But I don't know what I don't want. The Italian academic was basing his opinions on it. I mean th the reason I say that is because since nineteen seventy-nine. There's no way it's highly highly unlikely people being bringing that type of plant into Afghanistan because it's just it's more being off limits so in a sense that the disaster that's happened in from from minded perspective is a good thing to cannabis because it's sort of kept it away from not type of phenomenon put. Yeah I mean what I've seen in the pool. A one session we got from that From a a hashish producer. Who Wish it it it it it. I wouldn't say shows any obvious. Signs of Afghan contamination sons of. It doesn't have toppings or anything like that but it does have mockingly large Meves but yeah I I. My my sense is that there's still a substantial zones of central and South Asia and even Southeast Asia where it's still possible to get pure land racism and small apartments instead of at the end. They say optimistic that we hope that is the case and I. I hope they right in my experience suggests that right but of course I'm I'm I'm judging from unseated perspective and also have a financial incentive to solve presents it that way obviously. I'm biased toward bias towards presenting it in that perspective but honestly I would say this dispassionately as I can. My my sense is they are. There are still populations unaffected. And of course they're all away from the the places where I go and also just a continued thought Laos which is very efficient sense required chief economist of Philander races that I'm was off limits for a substantial period of nineteen seventy five until the late nineties. It didn't really start and up to tourism although I have spoken to one smuggler from the sort of ties stick day. Who says the Frank did introduce Hyper genetics into central Laos at one point for a commercial great but my my sense is from having lifted up because I lived that for four or five years. I didn't see any obvious. Signs of of foreign hybrids at nothing struck me as being very obviously contaminated by them. Everything I was seeing An the way the economy itself sort of worked with the commercial. Christ it it it was. It's very isolated by and large from from the type of person. He's going to do that. It's not to say that people have NGO workers and stuff who who lived that and people who have managed to get into the tourism ministry. I know that people were did bring hybrid stuff into grow gardens and things because you can get away with it in house and you can do it within the law now. They liberalized that you can have six garden now. It doesn't matter because no one gives it possible it's it's a yeah that allow friends of mine would talk about. Saf rang. You saw wrong is like a foreign. Sorry I'm western Western. Ganga people even knew about what it is but it doesn't do very well let because it's just a particularly bad climate for if anything that's got remotely sort of Genetics gets absolutely savaged. Whereas you know the the local land rises they've put lit up to to being grown there. So if you're a commercial grow why would you want to screw up with that kind of stuff if you can rate if you can grab a failed of the local landrace But Yeah I mean I'm I'm an optimist insofar as I think is possible within the next couple of years at least Representatives original land races. An landrace is that may have also been affected some degree but the still was collecting. Absolutely I mean I think that's an important takeaway from all of this. Is that even if we have trouble finding uncontaminated You know sources of some of these land races what does exist. In whatever level of contamination it exists is still worth preserving still worth collecting because of the contamination issue is going to just continue and get worse and worse and worse. Hybridization is going to continue and whatever can be captured now regardless is important but to begin to Rap Conversation because I think that's a a really good Segue how is this research going to affect the real seed company going forward? Is it going to affect Areas that you target Varieties that you target any of that. How how does all of this information affect the way you're thinking about the company Yeah I mean it's always in my mind I'm sort of wondering myself where makes sense to guy next Everything Woods other other people who are actually from these places during the collecting as much as I can say that. I'm I'm not flying around so much dumping tons of carbon in the time an was I not having to do this. Huge sort slugs across the months at a time which is awesome in many ways huge privilege but also extremely hot. What makes it quite difficult to to to to do at the same time anyway? I saw there are areas that I don't know anyone in the ams thinking flexing on parts of the Nepali layer and parts of northeast India that I'd like to have more of and also we were hoping earlier this year to to collect across parts of India itself southern India the covid nineteen thing happened and completely up but but but many of these some traditional Indian gadget domestic. It's a very important in In India is more linked into Internet commerce so this more MO- hybrid genetics. Going in the You know the chances of finding a finding the real thing is getting lower and lower focus there and wild type plant from northeast India or a a a something. I'm particularly keen to get hold of and generally we're moving more towards collecting a while. Type seats It was something that was always of interest that was sort of financial incentive to it but I think as sort of level of understanding amongst aficionados a significant increase than what will get more of those and I'm also keen to get hold of Southeast Asian Hemp Land Racism. Hoping Friends of mine can help me get hold of them and basically everywhere interest but I would like to Gawk in Central Asia because I haven't been to Tajikistan an isis which a hugely important I just have no idea to what extent it's feasible to collect seats there. I have no idea what the law is on that kind of thing so I don't know anyone married that's another hugely consequential place A as as this study has demonstrated for ancestral indika populations. I wish I could go to Xinjiang. But that's not happening. Complete Disaster Zayn I know well and that's another part of this puzzle to is. You've got this. These other dynamics at play. It's not like you can just wander in and collect seeds from plants. You've there are. There are all sorts of conflicts going on and economic devastation. All sorts of really really hard things that that affect this work something. I really appreciated On your social media that I wanted to give you a chance to briefly talk about is how the real sea company is working to try to support some of the locals. Um that are in some of the areas that That you've been sourcing seed from that. You know before the podcast started. We're talking about how Covid nineteen stuff obviously defecting every body but The media is not really shining much attention on a lot of these communities that are Really getting hit hard by this. That don't have the resources that a lot of Countries might have or a lot of the Privilege that a lot of the places have To you know so anyway. I know that you've been doing food. Drops or helping With supporting some of these food drops that have been happening in some of the local villages and other places where some of your work touches said. You might speaking a little bit to that. And if there's any way that any listeners can Offer their own support. Help support some of these families That are being affected Economically or you know sick or don't have access to food. You know all these sort of things That are very much connected to all of this work and the cannabis plant Let them know how they can get involved with that? Well yes sure I mean this was something. I'm conscious of in terms of collecting the seats. Because you could. If you have Ryan Facet of portray what I'm doing is the former colonial plunder in some ways because I'm going and taking from these places and make money out of it and I was always of that so I wanted to find ways to get money back to people who actually from these communities so one way I've done is just to actually get them to do the collecting and to give them a generous percentage of the retail price of what of what we sell the seeds but another another way. I have friends in money at these prices. Been visiting you know many years Who Work in NGO outfits who all just individuals who want to help that community so in the case of trial for example that was From the one thousand nine hundred eighty three to the seventies was a major center of hashish production in the Hindu Kush after Xinjiang shutdown but then in nineteen seventy nine ish I believe it was The Pakistani government suddenly became bryce strict about production in that particular area and started to very heavily. Enforce prohibition relative to how much had done before and what was promised that atrocities that up in your Kernan places that they would provide them with an alternative source of income which you know they never actually sort of make good on that promise so this is left communities that would otherwise have been making money out of commercial production in a pretty bad situation essentially what you have now is that must most families get half the main source of income from that Kids walking down in the cities like the shower and his about Nelson. They'll send money home when they have it. But of course with the lockdown them and a lot of people have lost their there. And so you actually do have the poor families up into a small scale subsistence farmers. So they're in a very precarious situation just in terms of having enough food to get through the crisis. So yeah I have friends. I'm in many years I've been sending You know to help them to food drops to families and I want to people and instagram. If they wanted to contribute site if people are interested they can email me or or follow instagram at the real sea company. And and I just dropped me dark message and I'll send them away to the they can send money to me because I know a lot of people are nervous about sending money to Pakistan or don't wants to have to pay for the transfer fees or nonsense of money Graham where you have to provide all your passport details and stuff so they can just pay POW me money. Basically and I'll send it to my friend and he'll he'll do the food drops he's been sending me lots of photos of him hauling bags of rice to families and stuff and I it is genuinely Radi I can. I can tell you sincerely appreciated by people that extremely grateful for an 'cause I need it. It's not just a yen. It puts things into perspective. I think for people that live in places like the United States or the UK or any of these. You know more wealthy areas. That you know I I look around and I see people here in the United States complaining about what's going on with stay at home orders. And all these things they they act as if they're so negatively affected and in some ways sure they are. I mean they're mental health problems all sorts of other things with people having to be stuck at home with job insecurity and everything. But the people that we're talking about right now are experiencing a totally other level of challenge With this issue I think hope my hope ensuring the story and and I'm going to be talking about this more my own instagram. Try to get people pointed towards us. I hope that it helps people. Kinda stop a little bit and think about what they're complaining about and what their actual situation is in life compared to to others around the world because we get so caught up in our narrow tunnel vision of of a life that sometimes we forget that you know when stuff like this happens. I mean there are people that literally have no food like like we can still if we need to go to a grocery store and get food. Yeah we've gotta wear masks and do all these different things and take precautions but we're still able to get food There are places in the world that don't have that luxury And so bringing attention to that is something I I feel very I don't know very led to do think it's a very important thing and I really appreciate the fact that you're trying to do that work. Oh Yeah I mean it's a it's a nation but it it feels good to be. It's a privilege and a way to be able to help people in feels good to see how it for me. It will fit into the bigger picture in which these These communities these margin FRY marginalized rural communities. The communities have kept these laundries going straight. For prohibition despite the efforts of the Pakistani government to wipeout cultivation in young people still did grow grow in between them as crops. They grew up in the mountains they did. They did maintain these land races. That the people who've who've kept these ancient highly diverse populations going this time. They're the people who growing the plants that all I'm wooden hybrids based upon us daily. Once once we return to normality and put an end to prohibition which is happening it's happening in the poll and it's slowly happening entitled these. These communities will benefit once again from from cannabis in the way that they should have been a lifeline to them. Through prohibition but of in many cases forced the plan up into these more obscure places in some in some cases it just going in these places like roper and recommend balcon and so on but anyway I these these people if anyone deserves to have fair cuts out of the the money to be made from cannabis off people who should be getting it it as a natural justice to to try and some of the benefit back towards is people's yes I mean and the such an important thing that I've been thinking more and more about lately is Social Equity Piece. You know how you have. People that have been doing. The work for long periods of time to ensure that cannabis has gotten to where it is now and so. How do you ensure that those people that really deserve to profit off of an economy that includes cannabis? How do you ensure they actually get in on on that? And you know in the United States. The one of the big problems with legalisation. That's happened here. Is You look at the prisons. And you look at the. You know who's been jailed for cannabis over the years in the United States and There aren't I mean there are by nonprofits and stuff their efforts but there isn't a strong voice in the federal government yet about trying to release these people from prison or expunged records ensure that they're able to actually participate in the economy that they've actually contributed to supporting to get it to this point. You know so far and you also see that that predominantly affects people of Color Just the way that racism has also affected the application of cannabis laws And so this the social equity piece I think is really important anyone listening. I think it's something that we really need to start thinking about and talking about a lot more because these dominoes are gonNA fall fast when they do. Legalization is happening all over the world and as its as it happens one place. More PLACES. Viewed as an acceptable thing to do and there's influence happening Especially when you see the money involved in everything So we're going through this massive change and we run the risk of really you know to put it very bluntly really screwing over the people that deserve to really benefit the most from this that have been suffering in various ways or taking enormous risks to get things to where they are now so Yeah a lot of lot of pieces to this but even beyond just the humanitarian side the social equity piece of of what you're trying to do to ensure that these people are able to be active participants in the economy and and begin to benefit the way that they deserve is is excellent so Thanks for that and hopefully anyone listening will really take that to heart and think more carefully about about that dynamic can just because I I know you wanting to join us but just a second I think with with land races that there is potential for T to find a solution to what you're talking about which is the something akin to what they have in the EU with the Appalachian Control this Which applied to various types of liquor and cheese all kinds of things? I'm essentially for example First Class NAPOLETANO hashish It cannot be people that the real thing. If it's produced with the real landrace from saybrook somewhere in in recommen- roper so you know it's essentially a combination of the t the terroir damn timing and the plant itself the landrace itself so the way. I see that that that should be a solution that there is a potential solution to to safeguard these communities rights to these plants and these products A means of in any way sort of suggest. There isn't huge room for improvement of these land races and that you can have of in in Nepal which is incidentally is as far as the Sunday has already legalized everything. So you could have projects in some way like rookie. Moroka where you have One branch of it is I am the maintaining the land rice in its in. Its full Other isn't actually improving. The landrace inbreeding in stabilising Sutton Carts heuristic and producing a plant. That can compete with the best modern hybrids in in in whatever carts ristic's you want and you can ensure these these products authentic a another interest minus is t and. I lived in Taiwan for many years and From what I know of what they're doing in the TR tsn these various Taiwanese State funded state run projects that talking about using stuff like What's Crypto cryptocurrencies? Yeah but not the currencies but the actual sort of the blockchain technology. And that's it yeah. I don't I read a few studies about it and I had friends who were discussing it but a real problem they have in some way like Taiwan is that they have had this fantastic tyrod. Amazing cultivars us to have incredibly high quality tea produced in the mountains. That but the problem is that they're also having the market flooded by Vietnamese tea which can be surprising. Vietnamese illness And but it's very difficult for Taiwanese owned companies markets and know if you're getting the real single but that talking about using blockchain technologies and and this kind of thing to ensure that the supply it you know they they know that this is the real the real deal basically right. Yvonne Basically have like a validated ledger to work with so that. There's yeah yeah exactly. Yeah so this is these are things up pondering about I mean. I'm I'm at living but that to me. Seems like a a route ahead and there must be some kind of way that you can use this. This type of scenario describes to ensure the only Real Nepali cherishes is is sold as Nepali Taras and and the same the same the same communities in Humboldt communities in New York state and and so on have been hit very hard by prohibition in an minutes and not being served well by legalization that you can use this kind of terroir control type system to ensure the fantasy and sort of economic justice redressing the wrongs of probation. So exactly yeah I know that I know that I think it's Medicinal genomics uses Blockchain technology to Handle the ledgers involved with the Genetic sequencing but they do cannabis plants to try to Basically ensure that like once they've analyze something and assigned it a unique. Id obviously the New Orleans strain names or anything. They have these just very confusing to series of letters and numbers that is like the unique code for that sample of genetics and that as that moves around databases or whatever they can Use blockchain technology to ensure the integrity of that and it's a way of ensuring that basically third party can't come in and manipulate things in some way That within You know sabotage the efforts of breeders and that sort of thing so I agree with you and I think that blockchain technology the way you're talking about using it I think it's going to spread throughout Agriculture and nursery plants in general. Because this is something that it affects roses. It affects grapes. You know all these different things that you need to be able to As a as a breeder able to protect yourself if you're introducing an new genetics and their traditionally have been these registries For nursery plants and crops. And things like that but like it just pointed out. They can be manipulated. They can be fudged by other parties. That's worth they're not necessarily totally protected. They're sort of a trust placed into them But integrating things like blockchain. Technology can eliminate the need trust altogether. You just know based on the way that it's designed and the way structure That everything is is safe from Manipulation and that the the information being shared is traceable in true. I want some Portland and smooth. What do I see him? It's going to be the next Study in a nice start looking at the contemporary accessions. Perhaps that combined with the genetic analysis and stuff can actually prove that are authentic. And what's what's not what has been hybridize with hybrids. Hasn't it's going to be very complicated because as as we free touched on many land races hybrids of land racist probably all land rights as a heart's races. But some some going you know some as with like low anti cancer plants hybrids happened many hundreds of years ago summer rates since the seventies late Lebanese landrace in Bekaa Valley. But I mean it'll be tricky and as far beyond my so ken but I imagine if they can do that and establish what's what's what's authentic and what's not an and you can. You can combine that with all these other ways of ensuring los anticipate. I think that's what I'm looking for now. I think that's why more people are getting interested in Landrace. This is because we're all looking for anticipate these days and is distinctly lacking in so many places you know and that's true on just like a philosophical level we are. We're at the stage where we're so tired of artificiality and are looking for authenticity. In so so many levels An cannabis is definitely one of those Well before we totally sign off. I want to give you a moment. If there's anything we haven't touched on that you wanted to to make sure to highlight or if not And just go ahead and let folks know how to learn more about the real seed company. You know you've got your blog Assume that anyone listening to this has heard our first interview so You know you've got the real sea company also got exceeds You've got your Log reshare a lot of your thoughts on on these issues whereas as well as linking to conversations like this that we have So I'll just kinda hand over the platform to you. If there's anything related anything we've talked about that. You feel like gap we need to touch on. We can do that Otherwise we'll go ahead and wrap things up and let people know how to Support you and find you. Yes sorry that was a that was a real delay on the line just there. I'm sure you can fix it all in the ad. But yeah yeah there. It sort of specific aspects of some of the supplementary material of this study that that I'm still pondering that I briefly mentioned like the the question of exactly how old or need the classic Guanzhou Landrace is It's maybe it's just a pus. An obsession of mine. I have I think they. They misrepresents some of the studies that they've used suggesting that John Racist Go back to the thirteenth century. I if you look at the the academic moyle impelled. I think his name is I've I've managed to find the papers and I think they've just misread what he said. He says there's not much evidence for that. Basically you don't see the the name Gangetic until the sixteenth century. Really done Gica about things but dating these texts. He's talking about is notoriously difficult so yet but my my theory is the creation of these types of high potency high. Thc South Asian landrace is something that really was catalyzed by the introduction of tobacco in the practice of smoking them with tobacco you to have kind of smoking oversee going way back at least to it to two and half years at least and you have pipes for smoking in that. They've found in Africa because smoking pipes goes way way back in Africa as well. We'll the pipes and stuff. It's it's extremely old. But they've found cannabis smoked in pipes in Africa in the sort of I think. It's the Thirteen tree ish kind of era. So and how far back do you like kilims? Go and that sort of thing I mean. That's I mean it's it's it's one of those things rather like the diffusion of cannabis in and those sort of Talking many flair hybridization of land racist. It's extremely hot. What's going on what action what's coming from? Where is it backwards and forwards? It's all my son. He Bites be likely to be a highly complicated picture of in both directions but My my theory is that that's a Tobacco was the key factor in in in in India that drove the selection pregnancy. Because if you look at say Garcia Portuguese Sephardic Jew he. He was in power in the in in the early fifteen hundreds. He doesn't talk about Ganji at all. You'd think if there was gadget that he would have at least picks up on him and he was a botanist. He just talks he talks about Bong and likewise you thank you. Don't see this time. Ganj until at least the sixteenth century. It doesn't really seem to get going until much later than that. That's a that's a guy called Thomas. Bowery who was a British much who was he was trading across the bad thing goal between Sumatra and India and he knew the commodities that are extremely well and he's a very reliable source. If you if you read all his stuff he seems to be on the money with pretty much. Everything and he He he he says the in India in sixteen seventy what they grew in India was among and he's very clear that bang is a different plant from Ganj. And that sort of fits with my understanding of this would be is Bong itself as as a word people keep saying. It's a Hindi word. It is a Hindi. Would it's in Hindi but it goes back to sort of five hundred BC Iranian middle middle. Tajuddin they quit but it's a very very old wet. It can apply to deteriorate to hand vein to kind of this if you're like okay. If you're looking at early Indian texts like the atop of Ada may volume there. And of course everyone likes to think that's Kinda and may maybe it's kind of this but we don't know for sure it could be any number of plants and I keep getting distracted onto different points but the points might of Pitcher I is is. The long is suddenly in India as in cannabis as sort of a central Asian type way of using cannabis is already in India suddenly by the eleventh century. It starts this time bang starts to appear in medical tax not kind of thing and this Guy Morel impelled who McCartan small refer to. He's clear that Eleventh Century Really Thirteenth Century as a sort of points at which you can say. Yes if they're talking about buying in this tax talking about cannabis I it's clear by that. Point is a thing in India. You see them early. Muslims in the eleventh century. Sort of talk about may be Fumigation. Type use of cannabis in temples based on you talk about using it to get stoned but you don't really have a definitively talking about buying until the thirteenth century which we discussed in the previous podcast. Was this very important. Point whichever explosion of Central Asia of hashish hush she sieving technique goes across into the Middle East. Suddenly you kind of is everywhere. People are getting stoned everywhere. All across North Africa and seems to be a right crucial points in India as well. And it's an alternate Muslim cultures establishing itself in India so Indians certain types of is going to hate me for this because it's basically sort of suggesting that the Muslims introduced cannabis to India with it the the ads for actually bowery. This guy in the late seventeenth century is saying all you have in India as equals accrued type of plant with large leaves. That's Bong whereas Ganges school coming from Sumatra in a place called at j just a very significant place on the northwest tip of Sumatra which was sort of trading point very prosperous in places like What's now bowed here and Thailand? And sort of linking through the bengals fruits. And what's now Calcutta the mountain west coast and you know a major trade rate but he barry's Klay saying Jonjo was coming from Sumatra. All they had in in India was bang. Bang was very cheap product. That Guanzhou was much sought after the Sumatran Gun. You said it was much addicting. Wien Ary as in people with smoking a bit and having a night on the town and anyway it was. It was much more expensive. It was much more expensive products at so many multiples of the price of bank. So my hunch is we should pay attention to what Barry says is properly answer because he should know I mean this guy was he was. That's make money. He was trading. He knew what the products were because he was. He was taking advantage of the disparities in spices and this prices of Isis type of stuff to make living and he was based out there for a long long time. Now it's not to say the Indians didn't develop under it. 'cause Indians were based in that show and they were probably growing. It is possible that they sort of May well be united. The earliest sort of censor of creation of these things was actually at this practice of selecting for potentcy and and creating what we now think of a you know this seedless product and that links with what you were saying about the Aromas of these types of South Asian nine races now. Lamar himself not noted that they smelled like tobacco. Now that's the case with Janin's Guanzhou has this very tobacco. We kind of aroma as loud and certain types of tie have this. Quite tobacco splendid fruity scents. And when it's pretty good it's sweeter but of course that's sweet sativa characteristics. That's something that's going to require. A lot of selective pressure as with good t and not type stuff very high levels of the amino acids and stuff that are responsible that type of thing as far as I understand it. Now that may well be a sign up deterioration of quality since the seventies. So I haven't I have seen it in good tien stuff. It's well I mostly seen of herbal aromas tobacco types of tobacco a romance. The you tend to find in sprint tropical Ganga but it was something that was blended with tobacco very early on and smoked and I think that highly addictive kind of combination of tobacco and Cavanaugh. It's is what really catalyzed this to become a commodity that was traded for from in from Central Asia into India and from Southeast Asia across to India and so on the demand for because it's around the same time that Barry was ready tobacco established itself as a crop in India. And it's that same time that the becks and actually probably Tajiks were were first recorded as as as introducing into Iran this practice of smoking with tobacco interesting. Wow Yeah so all comes down to splits. Yeah yes populism children's and bungs and everyone everyone in might sprints in all these parts they all smoking tobacco everyone. Does this very very seldom you meet someone who smokes pier and I like to smoke here when people see you smoke. Bloody how you want to smoke at are going to get too high. You know they they Everyone likes smoking with tobacco. You know. It's very addictive combination fascinating. Yeah that's something that personally. I've I've never really enjoyed the tobacco addition Sometimes it can. Yeah just really not not sit well with me. I can't do dissonance. I don't WanNA smoke something. I'm GONNA have to worry that it's going to give me cancer. Just what's the point anyway? Right yeah I know yeah I mean yeah sometimes it will mean depending on which this funny because sometimes I do smoke cigars. I like tobacco cigars. Usually a few times a few times a year but So I can handle tobacco for some reason. That mixture with cannabis is so prone to giving me the spins. And I don't know it's something that I just I'm like I don't don't mess with that. But agreement it. I think it's thirty eight thirty so of feeling you get from as well it just it it it. It takes the edge off the bus as well. I think it. Yeah and particularly you know. A lot of Indian show for example. Isn't always that potent it? That's again that's another whole issue. The the type of use of traditional use in in India is some is a tonic. It some good books on this people weren't necessarily smoking to get high. They were smoking to take the edge off very hard labor difficult lifestyles like being a wandering ascetic. Neither enough saying they weren't necessarily looking to to get wasted. They were actually looking to make life a bit easier. So that's another hell compensation and the Super Super Fascinating. All these cultural differences between how people relate to canvas so so fascinating. I love every time we get together and talk always so fascinating because I can always trust that. Our conversations are going to go in directions. I don't expect but that are super super fascinating So that's just another another one of those mis a pleasure to be able to sort of run for especially after having read. Read these papers because my mind is full of ideas and unfortunately Mike listen to me talking about it. Sometimes there's limits she can talk to talk about. It was only what she understands. What I'm talking about on Rudy appreciates it is is is a privilege. It's really good fun. Yeah and definitely. I've I've really enjoyed it and if You know as usual. The invitation has always out there if anything. Pops in your mind That we didn't go into that. You want to dive into later. don't hesitate to. Lemiux always enjoy our conversations and our listeners seemed to enjoy him or are less interviews. One of the most popular it is the most popular episode That we've done Yeah it's it was actually really cool on YouTube Someone commented and they said I I was. I was really humbled by this. They said just like The landrace strains that need to be collected and preserved conversations between these two people need to be collected and preserved. It was Super Super Nice. I really appreciate it so anyway. I need to wrap this up and go on but it was a really good pleasure connecting with you again As always and I'm sure we'll have more talk about soon and I know just like we've alluded to I know mcparland and small have more up their sleeves. They'RE GONNA be coming down the pipeline and the next if not really soon within the next few years. I'm sure we'll see More elaborations on the scheme and I. It's funny Our first interview. I asked you if you had to pick the tax if you had pick a Texan article model to go with even though we know that none of them are good enough. Which one would you choose and you said well how really like small and Cronquist and the way that they Handled things and so. It's so funny that jump forward you know from the seventies from when small cronquist I You know published Their papers on that. You know you jump ahead to twenty twenty and we've got mcparland small coming together and you know. Essentially taking what they had started and just elaborating it into a more cohesive scheme based on on what we know now so Seems like we were on the right track so anyway for everyone listening or Wa are watching the audio gramma. This on Youtube Thanks so much for for tuning in with us. I'm sure we'll have more share with you soon. but if you WANNA learn more about the real seat company go to the real seat company DOT COM Also a quick seeds dot com K. W. I k. seeds DOT COM Find that we've got the story behind that name I think in the last episode but you can find angus there. It's got great content and you know there are a lot of see providers out there but I don't I don't know if I've ever told the story about how you and I connected which might be kind of worth while to throw in here at the very end but the way that Amazon I got connected was I posted online. A timeline of cannabis taxonomy that I was using for Some of my Seminars and stuff and does a bit in there about Some of the work that Vavilov particularly had done and You commented on there and you're like I don't I don't know if this is quite right and we got into this Very civilized discussion. About our disagreements about trying to understand what was going on with taxonomy here which then led to well. Do you WanNa come on the podcast. And we'll just talk about it and it just it was A. I don't know it's it's really nice when you meet somebody that can Disagree or criticize in a In a very respectful and professional way and and then that led me to look into the real company. And all of the work that you do and I just I continue to be impressed by your dedication to try to get the facts right. Try to understand what we know. Share it with people. And when something's wrong you don't hesitate to say. Hey I was wrong about this or I made changes to this I said this at this time. But now I think this That's unfortunately a rare trait and a lot of a lot of folks these days. But it's something that I Really really appreciate. And that's that's how came together. And how these these discussions got started so let us cool to to share that and I appreciate you being one. They give up so much of your time. I said this wouldn't be a three hour interview but here we are at two hours. Forty minutes So collectively we've got five hours of content just just between you and me talking but I really appreciate you being willing to carve out the time and do this again. It's it's been awesome. Well thanks so much Jason. Thanks awesome all right. Everybody if you WANNA learn more about curious about canvas as usual it can go to see a sea. Podcast DOT com also as an aside on a win. This will come out but I am working on finishing up the second edition of about cannabis book. This paper is large reason of why? I have not released the second edition yet because I got it. Pretty much ready to go and then this paper dropped. I was like well now. I have to rewrite my whole chapter on taxonomy to include all of this and there's so much good info here so That has been delayed. But it's still coming so probably by a late summer or early fall The second edition of that book will Will hit shelves so be on the lookout for that? And if you want to support the work that I'm doing with these conversations and and some of the candidates education work that I'm doing at large Please head on over to Patriotdepot DOT com slash curious about cannabis and you can become a a member a patron and basically on that platform. I try to release episodes as quickly as I get them. Edited so that patrons get access. There's also bits and pieces of conversations that don't always make it in the final episodes and I Sometimes we'll package those up and released those two members to thank you for the support and there's other ways. I'm trying to figure out ways to to thank everyone. That's been supporting the work that I've been doing so far. So thanks thank star patrons and if you're interested in that check that out. Otherwise find curious about cannabis on social media on facebook instagram twitter or YouTube. And with that. Thanks so much for tuning in and I'll catch you next time. Take it easy and stay curious. Bye-bye you want to learn more about canvas? You can check out the curious about this book available now on Amazon Dot Com and other online. The curious about canvas podcast is presented by natural learning enterprises a science education company dedicated to the enhancement of public scientific literacy through education about the natural world. Curious about cannabis is just one of several learning initiatives produced by natural learning enterprises to learn more go to www dot natural learning enterprises dot com or connect with me on facebook instagram or twitter.