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"mike joyce drummer" Discussed on Drum History
"But that's you know we're we're talking about rock music quite a lot. You know there. There are other styles of music. Were you think about the that that maybe have interesting insights into into what being a professional drummer was like in those days and Clyde stubblefield drummers of James Brown Jabo starks come to mind as a as a different sort of model especially when we start going back to that discussion that we were having about Where the drummer you know? Has Their place creatively in terms of songwriting in terms of authorship one thing that was really interesting when I was researching James Brown. And and his drummers was that I hadn't realized that by the mid nineteen sixties he typically employed between three and five drummers at any one time and according to interviews with some of those drummers the reason why is that Brown was interested in looking for unique beats and and unique performance style so he could tell on the one hand that there was something kind of close to the originality that we might attribute in the nineteen sixties to a really unique melody or lyric. The that that was also a feature of drumbeats as well. This comes back to like you know. Well why can't you copyright you for instance the drumbeat from from funky drummer which Clyde stubblefield could make an easy argument that that's like a composition in its own right and yet the credit of you know of any James Brown hit goes one hundred percent to to James Brown a very occasionally to one of his horn players? But never the drummer crucially. Now it's interesting. You know you have these different models of you know drummers either receiving a certain kind of credit you either for being you know an unprecedentedly. Powerful Drummer virtuosic drummer or exhibitions drummer but rarely do drummer get that recognition for contributions to to the song to composition to creating the artistic aesthetic of of those bands. At least in that time. You know things have changed a lot and we now sort of see the work of those drummers in a completely different light in the twenty century yeah they they now get. I think the tables have turned in and they're getting the recognition which was of denied to them for so long. But certainly you know in the nineteen seventies. It's interesting you think on on the one. Hand like to have been Keith. Moon or to have been John. Bonham must've been on top of the world rights. You were acknowledged as these incredible musicians playing these incredible pioneering bands. But you know when you read interviews with with those drummers they one of the reasons why they had huge amounts of trouble with substance abuse guess was due to low self esteem self destructive. Tendencies you at at being relegated to this sort of You know low status figure in these extremely famous bands right well and you just real. You read my mind like this. Seems like the era of and those two guys Keith Moon and John Bonham. Which both had they died way too young. You are a rock star. I don't know if there's I feel like they are like the The blueprint of what people think of when they think of a star with a capital are. It's like these guys are in. And it's not good but taking horse tranquilizers or whatever and passing out on your drums so they they went big and maybe that's because they are then on posters and kids rooms and they are seen more as these giant rockstars at. You're like so it's interesting what you're saying about low self esteem of. I'm not to page. I'm not the guy writings. I'm not Robert Plant which is name. That's and that's not me theorizing it. You know that's them on record in interview you know end in memoirs and biographies that have been written about them. You know that that really comes through and it's yeah it's it's incredibly tragic but they are sort of forced to live up to these particular stereotypes which were being formed around them and part of that is in a way like not taking the work that they did seriously right as opposed to the work that they're bandmates it. Yeah so to think too. They were both thirty. Two years old when they died is unbelievable to think about being so young. I mean you're thirty two years old. You're you're still. I mean you're barely an adult at that point really. It's just like to have lived and made such a giant contribution to the world of drumming and just disappeared so quickly is it's such a shame. Yeah I mean and and clearly. Their deaths were the result of of complicated circumstances. Yes you can't attribute it to to one single factor. But it's also it's undeniable that that self destructive substance abuse was was in both cases fueled at least in part by by feelings of inadequacy that were stemming from a belief that their bandmates were seen as the real artists will. They were just the drummer in that band and had to fulfil a certain a certain role within that. Yeah which was sort of impossible to live up to now. Get IT KINDA. Back to the working drummers theme that we have going on here. Is there any comment or any? Is there any information about how They would have been paid less. They would've been seen like Robert. Plant is probably making more money than John Bonham. Even though you know you see the song remains the same. And he's racing cars and doing you know. He has a nice big house and stuff but in that maybe he may be an extreme example. Because he's John Bonham but were they still like drummers general at that point I'm sure they were still probably paid less and didn't get writing credits as you're saying but but financially probably not covered as much as you know Mick Jagger and Keith Richards right yeah well. I think that the the key thing is that they're separate revenues revenue stream publishing rights versus Bam profit. So there wasn't a sort of set model for any of these bands you. The band's management in any of these cases with set up legal agreements between the different members of the band. Look at the different revenue streams say from live performance on the one hand record sales on the other merchandise or songwriting and then divvy prophets up accordingly but and it's a it's difficult to make generalizations about like you know how how drummers fared across the board because those agreements were there wasn't a standard set of agreements in terms of how to how to share profits so famously in In some bands from the nineteen eighties onwards like you to and you to Rem Ban Prophets were were divided equally. But when I'm when I'm trying to Make an argument about I. Guess in terms of songwriting is that that sort of agreement had to be made deliberately to counter a built in inequality. Yeah Yeah that's ingrained in. How songwriting credit and copyright traditionally worked I don't know if any drummers who are in bands that are listening to this will encounter similar situation to To myself but I know when I was playing in a band and we were first registering our songs with the British equivalent of of ace gap. And be a lie. And you dividing up which songwriting credits went. Where we asked for advice on this and the advice that we were given by professional working for one of these royalty collection agencies. Was You know whoever writes the melody and the top line? Nick is the songwriter right. Yeah and many lawsuits famously. Deal with the the drummer being Basically getting the short end of the stick on these types of agreements So if you move on into for instance the nineteen eighties. There's a very famous and well documented case between Mike Joyce Drummer for the Smiths and Morrissey Marr. Where he sues them for for profits that the that the band was making and at the time the the profit split between the four members of the smiths were forty percent for more c forty percent for Johnny Marr. Ten percent for Roy Moore on Bass and ten percent for for Joyce on drums. You know. That's not a prophet split that we can say all bands operated like that but it wouldn't have been unusual. Yeah sure right and so of Joyce then hands to come back at the end of the nineteen eighties and this is completely different from From songwriting splits right and it wasn't claiming a lawsuit against songwriting credits. He was he was talking about profit. Split of the band And so he takes a more. Marta Cortin and Morsi famously shows up in court testifying that in terms of the smiths output Joyce and Rourke on Drums and bass were just session. Musicians at the famous quote was that was that they were as replaceable as the parts of a lawnmower. Oh my God yeah come on. That's not but this. But despite that testimony the judge ruled in favor of Joyce good yeah recognizing that that was like an inaccurate account by Morrissey Morsi who he also described as being And I think this is a quote truculent and unreliable so you. I think that that case is illustrative of how it worked for a lot of drummers playing in bands in the nineteen seventy s and nineteen eighty s There there were basically mechanisms in the system of remunerating musicians for their work. That that went against the the favor of drummers in a lot of cases gosh well well I think and we'll move forward here because we have we have still you know fifty years ago or forty years ago but I think it's worth noting to and I've talked about it a lot. We've talked about a lot in different episodes but about how Ringo and let's say Charlie. But really ringo made drumming extremely popular with young kids. And then that may Ludwig blow up. And I think the same can be said about John Bonham. Guys were then. As far as gear goes were becoming superstars in the world of drummers as premier. You think of Keith Moon. So yeah they drove the growth of the drum kit manufacturing industry yes and the maiden Japan market basically started. Because they said. Oh my God. We need to create these these off. Brand Ludwig and expand on that so global expansion with drummers thanks to Ringo and everyone else Charlie Keith. Everyone yeah one hundred percent. There's definitely accounts from Ludwig but also interesting like you manufacturing companies the Ringo Never went close to gretch saying that basically after nineteen sixty four in that appearance on the television show they had to double production or triple production and keep their factories open. Twenty four hours a night to to meet demand and with all of that demand and companies. Not being able to expand quickly enough. It did open this gap in the market for new companies coming from Japan in particular like parole like Tom like Yamaha exactly By the end of the nineteen sixties to to start creating drums to to meet that growing demand An interesting like new creating their own of innovations in the process. Right when we think about Those classic Yamaha Recording Custom Kits. With this you know beautiful black lacquer finish right you that absolutely stems from Yamaha having their previous history and making upright pianos. Yeah wow that's interesting. Yeah Yeah and so. They have all these. You know interesting. Innovative manufacturing techniques. That were being used. You know for for other instruments that then starting to to drums and.