4 Episode results for "Michelle Laura"
Mada Seghete, Co-Founder of Branch: Overcoming Failures and Turn Them Into Strength Of Building A Community In More Than 55 Cities Around The World
"Strong and independent woman is something to behold she pays. The bills buys own things and she doesn't let Amanda Factor. Stability are self confidence. She is a sold rich woman. Are you ready to be rich doing what you love beyond purpose and in control of your life again at for women love the Atwood podcast? We will open the talking about it. Mocked lines online getting recognition as leader and female entrepreneur. And also the athlete being fabulous having freedom and financial independence. It's time to own end loved the F. Word welcome to the show So my name is Michelle Laura. Today we have with a special guest and she sees a modest get to get And she's the CO founder of Brunch. Thanks for having me. This is great so tell us a little bit more about yourself. And how long have you been doing this? Yes so I am from Romania Romania from Romania Eastern Europe. I moved to the United States about sixteen years ago for college Worked over to the bunch of different things. I was a consultant suffer developer product manager and then one day. I decided I want to start a company so I started working my cofounders. Five years ago we had the ball three failed ideas in branches number four before so we started ranch a little bit over three years ago. Wow so when you say that brunches number four how lost journey like to beat number for I mean what? What didn't you give up? And why do you pursue? Well we we did give up on the previous idea Y We really wanted to build something. And one of the most important things you can build a startup. Founder is a team and we realized that you know we were very different. Scoff on their inveigh. Had very complementary skills so we decided to stay together and keep trying so we kept failing and try new things. Andbranch was going to be the last one. We even have this poster in the office that has a heart and says life remaining zero so when you play video games you know you always played you have when you have two lives. Three lives remaining. You're like oh whatever if I do the live nobile but when you have zero lives remaining you play very differently. So that's kind of how I was when we started branch. Were like this is our last life and we made it happen while I love the way you put gaming into the energy of the three lives two lives zero life but for a woman when you are growing your startup case several times how how do you define your and grow your influence some of obstacles. That probably you're faced. Yeah I mean it's interesting. I am actually probably the face of branch in many ways. I spend a lot more time. Evangelizing than my co founders. Do Alice. Yo focuses more on product and Mike is our CEO works on operation. So I ran the marketing team so I travel a lot and speak about branch The way I built influence is really to just getting to know things really in depth and writing about it trying to speak about things finding areas where I can become an expert and telling others about it so I think it's when I write articles I tried to never write. Things are superficial but go very in depth on certain areas And that's kind of trying to become a thought leader in The mobile world. So when you said that you want to become a thought leader always used to go deep also instead of learning about everything like learning a little bit about this and open about that. I tried to pick areas the for example. I do a lot of talks on vitality and referrals so I went in. I research a lot and I know a lot about how to make something viral so instead of going and knowing everything about how to promote your APP. I don't know that much about paid advertising but I know a lot of organic so I picked one area and then I just learned so much about it versus kind of trying to be a generalist y leads. Everyone has different leadership styles minus based on leading by example. So I think it's You know if there's things that no one else can do. I try to take more on than my teammates and I do my best to find ways that I can show people that I can work as hard or harder than them and Take on just as much as they do. And you know we were in some ways. I look at my. I'm part of a team. Yes I'm leading and I'm kind of setting the direction but I'm not just doing that. I'm also taking part of the pieces and doing some of the groundwork and that's kind of my style. I also try to I think I tried to be an empathetic leader. So I tried to understand what people are coming from and understand where they're going and why they're trying to achieve miss. Be Better about that. When you're growing this business right now. What are the some of the you know? Resources and tools that you use to grow So I lead the Marketing Team. So one of the ways. We grew awareness of branches by building these communities around the world we call the mobile growth communities and we have meet ups in fifty five these around the world while twenty. Five thousand people have come to our events. There has been community has been one of the tools we content marketing inc. It's been amazing for us. We write a lot so we've become experts in different areas. I have areas are that I like to ride the discipline. My team. The right about others and We get the people we get. We talk about problems in mobaric or system and We talk about solutions. When people read articles they learn about something they the pinpoint but also that how branch consumed up in point. So you prove to them that you know what you're talking about the show them numbers you research show examples of how others have done honestly. I haven't really if people don't want to listen to me and I go and buy make them like. I think that such a thing of people want to listen to me. I don't like kind of doesn't make sense if you WANNA listen to me means that I don't know my shit so I go up to them and I could visit the I know my shift. I'm just wondering how do you grow your community? So huge over fifty five cities said a big number. I mean how do you do that? well you put really good content so we have a recipe for to do house. We do successful meet UPS. We bring really interesting people to talk. We convinced them by wants to do a good event. You show people. I've done this great events. Come and check it out and it's easier to convince people to come And once you've done a good event people will come back. So and then they'll tell their friends about it so it's really about focusing on quality and putting the community. I saw not trying to oversell or not trying to you. Know we don't talk too much about branch or it's all about the need of the community not about our needs is a company And if you put a community I and try to understand why they're really. They're what they're trying to get out of it So we told to use them by THEM MEET UP DOT COM to promote our events and We communicate I mean we get everyone's email and we send emails but most of the interaction happens off line at the events that we we started so it happened offline before it goes online so when you are giving value what is what advice he can give a community out there one advice if they want to do community as well To really understand. What is the purpose of your community and what is the need? You're trying to solve so in our case we were going after mobile developers marketers. Who are trying to promote and grow their mobile APPs and really know how and we're looking for advice so we knew that that's what they're looking for so we. We made sure that we always been quality advice but it could be. Every community is different. So make sure you understand. They're actually need. Not what you your vision is for what they're they need. Not what you see Maine's cool. Do you have any advice for women who are sitting on the fence striking out on their own? Just just Just try it out. Anything fail the first time. It's okay just keep building. Don't be afraid to fail if you if you see that people don't want to product. Don't be humble. Don't think that you know better than your customers. And make sure that if you're getting if if you feel the market is telling you that your idea is not quite right. Don't be afraid to completely quit and start something new. We went from fitbit for dogs to photo-printing APPs to a printing as decay to linking for Mobile APP so we went to such different companies and such integrations to reach where we are today and we would have never gone here if we became Became attached to one of the failed projects that we had in the US and woman do you all this emotional failure. This came up. I think this year I know Very hard I'll be honest. I don't think I could have been able to fail to give up my co-founder Alex our CEO was a lot better than me at saying. Okay no this is not working and one of my biggest learnings from working with him has been to be able to go. Projects somewhat better now. Even even you know I I started something I was trying to competition failed when I'm not. I'm not afraid to say Again I think when I was younger it was very very hard for me So it's important. It's probably the biggest adviser for any entrepreneur art. Don't get too attached to an idea. Be Okay admitting that is failing star something new. Don't keep going someplace you might raise money and realize you ideas not quite working. You just keep going don't do it. Don't waste it. We started branch with money. Raised for a different ideas learn. That failure is just a step in the past success. There's the book that I highly recommend. Mindset Wow I'm not sure okay. So mindsets about To everyone has there's two different types of people want something have a Static mindset that some of the have a growth mindset so the only way you can grow is if you accept failure learn from it and become better So that's kind of the it just it's too. It's become more natural to me these days. It used to be hard because I think failure meant that. There's something wrong with me and now failure means that now I can be better. The next step would be better so it's just a change in my mindset. I don't have to cope anymore with a because I don't feel down or I fail. I'm happy that I failed and I have a a lesson. I LOVE EMPOWERING MOBILE DEVELOPERS. We empower them to our product which is deepening deploying. So it's a technology for developers. We I get to them. So they learn about branch through the content and I generate a women mostly men especially in the states but in other parts of the world is a lot more women went to one of our meath after Romania and we had this girls that were like building their own app so it depends So wherever they are men or women I love helping them grow their mobile presence and I was. We built up. We've we struggled so helping others. They have the stress I used to have. It's really amazing empowering. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so honored connected and I hope that I can continue to serve you as he built your dreams and if you love this episode and what you did rated five staff give us glowing review because we were helped more women around the world finding these full rich constant alone. You are strong together. We are unstoppable. Now shared this with every woman who meets because this is how we are changing the world one woman at a time as always get out of your comfort zone and go towards the droops always wanted to achieve for women who loved the F. Word being fabulous heavy freedom and financial independence. My dear saw rich women sending you my love and I'll speak to you soon. Bye for now.
AT#676 - Travel to La Rochelle, France
"I am a traveller episode six hundred and seventy six today the amateur traveler talks about muscles and u boats the bags back on a roll on their red it's real good pass board destination for French people and surrounding La Rochelle there's such places as Nantes which is on the border with Spain so it's a beautiful coastal Atlantic town still some cold Atlantic water which will touch on later I'd like to welcome the show Jacob Kell who's a luxury travel advisor at facilitate luxury dot com and Jacob has come to talk to us about insolent let's go to that a little more detail where are we going to start we're GONNA start in La Rochelle itself ready do you want to start someplace else I would start in Bordeaux welcome to the amateur traveler I'm your host Chris Christianson let's talk about lower shell dare to learn French I spent semester studying at the University of La Rochelle and that's when I really got to learn the language learn the culture and then Laura Shell in France Jacob Oh come to the show thanks Chris I'm glad to be here in what's your connection with lower show well it goes way back I originally studied inst- without some of the struggles that we might find elsewhere in France struggles well I really like to recommend Larochelle first time visitors to France I think it's the perfect city to provide an authentic cultural experience is a town that the musketeers were besieging because it was a Protestant town in a Catholic country but why should someone go to La Rochelle today hey I don't like to say struggles but France can be off putting or little intense first-timer the culture is rather closed off Harris is really what we're thinking about here goes to France it's about two hours from Bordeaux if you're familiar with Bordeaux and it's closer to Spain about an hour north of Beirut but it's particularly as part of Tin Ary it's best match with Bordeaux a Lotta people will want to go to Bordeaux the city for the history there and then of course get to explore what still today one of my favorite cities excellent and can you put it on the map for people who are not familiar with the city Lara shells on the Bay Biscayne it's on the West for yield array grits all of these towns are in close proximity and make for excellent day trips or stops and part of a larger itinerary why you can also spend some time in one of the itineraries I like to recommend is other flying into France or flying into niece and doing a long drive around the outer edges of France it's a beautiful way to see the country and Laura shells a highlight on the route that I recommend woman for us and Laura Show you can really spend probably a week in and around La Rochelle there's lots to see lots to do and great cities and islands near the wine region and Laura Shell is perfectly situated as more calm getaway it does get busy in the summer season it's popular yes okay Harris's to France as New York City is to us in terms of reputation excellent and what kind of I.. Terry would you a link to that which I'll put shuts and also in the lyrics of this episode so you're starting us in Bordeaux where a lot of people going anyway absolutely Bordeaux's obvious and I have to say that the first time I heard Laura Shell was probably in the movie the Three Musketeers or the former skit here is way back in the seventies or something like that breath and we have done another show on borough just for those of you who are listening so if you want more detail Umberto than we're going to cover here I will refer you to so easy to get to from Paris or elsewhere in France starting with Bordeaux obviously that's improved version of Paris for me it's a large city but it has this the same cultural diversity which is astounding but it's much more quiet it's astonishingly quiet I love Bordeaux says emme on is one of the most quaint small towns I've ever seen really romantic with the old stone streets and the buildings it's very tiny you can walk the whole thing and it's nothing but good food and boutiques with amazing wine and you mentioned the border was easy eighty but really my favorites village in terms of the wine experience which is what a lot of us are going to board o four he Saint Emmy on two and a half hours or so so you could fly but it might even just be faster depending on whether you're coming from the airport that you flew into or from the the city itself too Normandy down into the southern part of France and so spent the whole day on the train but across the whole country so that wasn't a big deal request it's a very walkable town the first highlights that you definitely GonNa see is the old harbour the old port this is surrounded by a street called K. dupree which is the road that runs along the poor there's a lot of restaurants faced two beautiful place to sit to eat on a train absolutely excellent I often recommend the train at yet and they're very pleasant in France last time I was in France we took it all the way from now local trains at that point excellent and when we get to Laura Shell what are we going to do so Larochelle is loaded but it's easy to people watch to look at the boats and this is the main area of law Rochelle and one of the biggest highlights consists of one of my favorites is called Lake Hetzel little bit upscale it's well regarded in the city very nice food later military fortifications the consists of three towers tour Saint Nikola towards the Lantern Tour de la Shan and these are it to get to an astonishing. I'm wrong I believe there's a high-speed train from Paris to Bordeaux yeah the TGV runs from Paris aboard. Oh I think you can do it in about it good for dining shopping the first one is called ru Saint John Perreault and so this is that's spot on that area's really easy and one of the best parts once you're there there's two streets that everyone should know right off Katy Perry which is that main road I was talking about and when you walk back it's an alleyway and this is where you're gonNA find a lot of really really great restaurants three towers and these were fortifications that date back we'll our show I think dates back to the twelfth century and these are a little bit between Cognac Brandy and wine okay it's still a wine but it's like a port they put additional alcohol in correct absolutely and then once you're in Bordeaux you can easily take the train to La Rochelle and that's going to be more of a local train or TV together okay no no TGV then you get on it conic of the city so when you see Laura Shell featured in publications are images this is this is what you see when you talk about this being it's a very fine sea salt that's produced in the region okay well and speaking of regional what should we order winner in all town a small harbour to I'm looking at an aerial picture of it in my impression I could walk around the whole harbor and well from one tower to the other in fifteen minutes or something like that other dish is muscles of course and there's a regional recipe for the Cheryl region which is where the region that the Russian L. as in it's called mood shell says and this is a cream white lines sauce those are two famous dishes when you talk about the being the region line I think you should try it's a very very local it's called Pino pin you it's really across another one is la Fleur de sale on the same road these are excellent dining options Florida's sell the flower of the Salt Yes okay even recommend where to go and enjoy the picnic does a couple of really beautiful spots in town to enjoy picnic or to just enjoy the scenery into take cheese is one specifically it's called shabby shoe regionally produced goat cheese and butter is also a big deal here okay so big Gary it's the modern department that Lara Scholla's in its from the ancient region of Aquitaine and was part of England for Rachelle I don't know anything about regional specialties in this particular part of France well my favorites oysters you gotta get some moisture really fresh museum worth checking out if you're into the war history and this is called the bunker walk the I would be ally and this is a street that runs along the beach but it's a residential street and there's a lot of when we're very close to Cognac okay so if you're into Cognac this is definitely a good time to try it in addition to those and were these famous oysters are harvested so a lot of the restaurants along the port you'll be able to get fresh officers they're absolutely delicious another very sweet okay again like okay got it the other two things you should know is that in this region defined the Casino du Bel Air on one end next to the beach it's a very nice area to see the homes and then there's a very large and it sits beneath ray Tom so it's quite small when you're in there is now a museum but it has some of the best preserved frescoes time during the plantation it's way back there in the twelfth century or so then the revolution happens and everything it's redivided up but okay we're not water oil there's two main varieties the first being yield array coming from ill d'auray and ill their own which is another Goulash it's on Rudy Dom and this was a bunker that was taken by is used by the Nazis correct term is there during World War Two the German submarines that go out and sink allied shipping and so it was finally liberated in May I wondered if that's you war too I saw that there was a siege of Rochelle okay got it so there's a unique history there and there's also region in general then and a will get a baguette or something like that for butter in traditional France fashions or something more specific in love Michelle Laura Shell had its boom of wealth during the triangular trade with a new world the triangular trade being the slave trade it was just trying to work out why someone would name it that but okay actually slurred to sell is a regional product okay well that answers my next question very well and I think you touched on this earlier with the French Protestants okay when the Protestants fled France really beautiful old homes that line the road and there's a large arc in the middle of it it's a really great place to visit this is not a history podcast you just a travel by somebody who loves history okay anything else we're going to try while we're in lower show there's one specific fortified commit to see yeah excellent what else are you gonNA recommend we see in large shell itself in my opinion France does museums absolutely wonderfully I'm not a big well and you talk about the World War Two history so Laura Shell being port city was used to house or harbor U-BOAT's whatever they so slaves to molasses to rum with a new world who in the Caribbean then mostly in the Caribbean and a little bit in the southern United States and fine art museum so we're talking classical art or more modern art now this is classical renaissance era paintings in just as you were talking about the port being used a harbor by the Nazis g go a little bit north of the city to have to drive there it's a short distance it's still considered Rochelle another really beautiful art museum that I love is music they bose art this is a smaller museum but it's stocked with about pope are called the Puck Pal Shah is a big beautiful park for exercising strolling relaxing wonderful place to stop for a picnic there is a link between Laura Shell in Charleston and I live in Charleston. Okay what is the link between Laura Show in Charleston this the you have me one thing I failed to mention which is a big site to see is that when you're in the old port and you look up against the wall of the Laura Shell there's The location where the Nazi u boats were stored I saw that that was still in existence that would be interesting for a history buff yes in the city that had been sitting perfectly preserved for seventy years interesting so it's an interesting sight to see and I learned French here in Charleston to the professors that taught me that but it's an uncommon quiet history excellent what else are we going to see in any other places we want to touch on some of the history from Laura show the most important parts we've gone over huguenots a lot of them fled to South Carolina the Humane Society of South Carolina's actually based here in Charleston and beautiful place to see excellent we've talked about art and history we've got people sorted out in terms of some restaurants to go to where the May was coming from in ally it is at the end of allergy mind there's a small memorial if I remember correctly was going to say buildings you'll find the gross or lodge which is the big clock tower that separates the buildings lining the Ports Liam guy but there's a couple in La Rochelle that I do recommend that I very much enjoyed the first one is the Musee Nouveau Monde Museum of the New World here you find yourself in the midst of it all and what I always recommend people is go get lost and see where those are the remnants of that sling of France a long time ago I did top picks I do WanNa mention an interesting dive bar it's an important part of the city is called logging yet not for everybody in a whole new space and you can start getting lost meandering streets it's it's one of the most walkable towns I can imagine and it's that we should make something we should find well we're in Laura Shell wondering the tiny streets I would make your way to the mayor's office in Nick I'm come and La Domi- is there something special about the month of May in Larochelle yes and this goes back to it's almost a thousand paintings and not big names but just really beautiful historical pieces that will into the maze of city streets behind them and so when you decide to walk into the city you walk underneath the gross or laws and now takes you laura shells easy perfect place to do that any other sites we wanNA see before we go out to some of the things that you're recommending outside of the city those are mine Loaded with everything from antique stores to more restaurants in typical French fashion is there a particular street you would head us down or a quest and Larochelle llanelli this is a beautiful building this is the central hub of the city and so if you make your way and Wine Cuban elites the three musketeers and then potash king as we go to La Rochelle in France it's more of a university hang out okay and now you have me intrigued with not for everybody there's a longer story there about we spent a lot of time there I spent a Lotta time indulging there with my Chinese friends okay in other words yes the whole island is now a UNESCO World Heritage Site it's very well protected what people do need to know if they are driving is there is a fee to use the bridge over very enjoyable place and then moving further outside of Laura Shell a little bit longer to the north Washington really wanted nothing to do with this young man who came over from France who was so young and such and yet he had training and he was ultimately very very useful to the revolution including helping get a sponsorship from France for the Revolution which definitely was you've hence the student hang out this is yeah this is where students hang out it's worth checking out it's worth trying one of the other streets there it very interesting figure I was eighteen when he came over to fight in the American revolution and at first my impression from the history I've read is that I wanted to mention is route Saint Nikola which is on the opposite side of the port from the previous street I suggested Ruth Roussy which he sailed to America with called her Miami what they have in Ross for is a replica of the original ship and it's relatively expensive might be around fifteen euros otherwise take the boss it's an elevated fair maybe around four euros you can get there easily mall port beautiful sites to see a lot of great restaurants fresh seafood this is a great day trip and if you're going during the summer to yield array enjoy the beaches of the island as fill up it's a popular vacation destination and if you're into biking it's Ab- it's more of a wind slosh fruit flavored concoction that's with bubbles spread through something okay and they bottle this up it's very expensive once you're on yield array this ounce called Saint Martin Derive Saint Melt on the right this is a nother quaint fishing village needed to win it I don't think he was responsible for it I wouldn't go that far but it certainly didn't hurt that he was fighting alongside the Americans absolutely beautiful islands to bike through the sand dunes are very well protected it's a gorgeous day trip that's what I'd recommend go for the day to build bray sh try or a gutsy pipe delanie real good Italian place okay well then let's leave the city where would you have us come I think Caparo and routine Nikola has several more great restaurants one of my favorite Italian places is actually located here if you need a break from friends stop should be ill day you'll to raise an island off the coast of lower show about a thirty minute drive connected by is it sunk called Ross four and if you are into American history and you're familiar with Monkey Lafayette the ship in which listing history actually where he finally comes back to the US as an older man after we had gone through a really rough time politically there was a time it was built in seventeen eighty that's a really cool thing to see if you ended the history recommend visiting rush for marketing is a mm-hmm when we were not all united in the US in terms of our politics if you can imagine Marquis de la Fayette came back as one of the last remaining men who fought in the revolution and if you go around to the US and you find a Lafayette Louisiana and Alofi at this Lafayette Park and all those things a lot of them would be into after him when he came back to the US as an older man and there was just a great celebration of him and threw him celebration of all those who fought next really fund drive that I did when I was living in Laura Shell was into the region of Dona and we have done another show when she was founded pretty short period of time until the revolution when it all got a little more complicated Oh yeah excellent worship there you go is another town a lot of smaller ones dotting the countryside one that is medieval at this point so it's a couple hours these are local trains definitely stay overnight in Beirut's so we mentioned this as being the ancient area they just about drink beverages to be had but what you'll find in Cognac for example the world castle of Cognac and Chateau de the east of Bordeaux though South East Okay Yep when I picture rolling hills and fog and ducks chewier the water here is cold but I'm sure it's refreshing during the summer They Ritz is a fun double means castles where would I go in the region of lower shell I'd go into Cognac okay not just about drinking well is Beirut's that's another fun place this is where we would take the train from Rochelle pass through Bordeaux away and even for this out a little bit longer you can cross over into San Sebastian and Spain gins okay I'd recommend making appointments I recommend making an appointment that's my travel advisers side of me however I've done the of Aquitaine if I wanted to find my inner plan Tanit and a fine this history that I would find from that time period which Dan rivers this is where you're at it's shockingly quiets with really old Chateau's dotting the countryside you can cut through the Pyrenees I've had friends that have done this they loved it she really got a lot of options right in this location now is it possible dude do that continue south to Beirut's Bay riches a popular getaway for the British in France Beach Town beach down yes casinos on the Dordogne so if you're interested in more about what you're about to hear from Jacob consider that so you're driving to the east reception and I've had some of the best tastings ever doing justice where it's a normally a family that operates it and they'll sit is a day trip from lower shell or is it just seems more like an overnight by the time we get down here I would do in overnight because I'm probably taking a local train Berge Iraq which some of you who've heard of Cyrano diversion ACA might have heard of that town if you know nothing about it is one town the revolution who were no longer with them at the time so it's so easy for people to forget how close we were with the French Lanarkshire Cognac you've got to do some research there's a few different houses that will offer tastings by appointment or can I walk in some of them do set up a private tasting tour that's that's always a lot of fun and potentially gets US home easier at night that's the goal excellent is opposite before I've done it in one country driving along if you see a house a producer if they have signs which is the road around the harbour around the harbour I would be on a terrace of a restaurant I would be thanks I know a lot of the French wineries are just now starting to have tasting rooms at twenty years ago it was an unknown thing where can I do that tassels that Cognac would also make a great day trip from La Rochelle get out there in a couple hours and we're does one do czar lots this is another great place to visit and now I WANNA skip to the other side of Bordeaux further South Bordeaux in hand and I would be enjoying some fresh voices from ild array that's my ideal setting a relaxed I'll have to be standing Chris standing is optional standing as I would be seated on Katy Perry okay. La these are older medieval castles and Cognac and door dona as I previously mentioned are both dotted with the other places you want to hit before we get to some of our wrap up questions it sounds like we're we're starting to wind down here I think I've gotten a lot whereas we that's when you talk about the process so we've now gone past the wine process and now we're into distilling KAZ COGNAC is distilled wine zing evening in La Rochelle taking in the harbour taking in the three towers that our economy to the city and then down and pour out their product that you tasted they want to sell you something and I've been shown the whole process is an older gentleman Edwards what three words would use charming can authentic rich in history I believe that is not a third now this is a little Ritz and glamour here although you mentioned that we're on the Atlantic and the Mediterranean so the water here is air near sunset okay I'd be watching people stroll the K I'd have a glass of white Adler and sharing with us your love for France and specifically your love for La Rochelle Chris thanks so much I'm happy to be here in Spanish and then I was the small group of Americans at the time there's a good amount of bars that cater to the university crowd the Chinese students playing you know at the bar okay we're back at the student bar sure it's worth noting there are business drive up as long as you're working day drive up knock see who's there I've always had a warmer we're going to be tasting all day one of you should be drinking soft drinks but yeah or we get a driver tour yep exactly he's very proud of the new equipment that he had purchased took me in the back in showed me how he made it his daughter was the one pouring wine I was an incredible experience send them to our blog we keep periodic article goes on different locations and different topics related to travel and we publish one months what I don't have a way of selling those right now I think I may have used to like ten years ago but I think that service shut down that I was using Mary said I really enjoyed all the luxury dot com if we sent people over to facilitate luxury dot com to find your best post on Laura Shell where we're going to send them to facilitate a trip to love Rachelle or somewhere else in France specifically probably if you're looking for luxury absolutely excellent that's our specialty there's also ruts and museums that alcove springs and Marysville area I also wanted to mention Fort Riley still an active military base which houses dedic center of North America you mentioned trail ruts Fort Leonard has a detached part of the park which is Santa Fe trail ruts the Laura Shell is a university town the University of Rochelle is a big school and it's well known for its language programs this custom travel and we hand pick everything based around your personality and your interest well Jacob thanks so much for coming on amateur some of our wrap up questions here if I tell you you're standing in the prettiest spot in or around lower shell where you standing what are you looking at ago about law Rochelle that mentions a lot of the things that I talked about today so it's a great resource could've still tate luxury dot com click on blog so that's why I have a lot of Chinese students okay e. a lot of international students that come here to learn French Fairmont of Chinese Russian at least an American or two correct yes okay a double distilled I actually am reading that I did not in other words you're gonNA WANNA designated driver of your Nicodemus national historic site north of Hayes the only remaining western town established by African Americans during the reconstruction period things speaking of centers the geographic center of the forty eight states is in Lebanon Kansas so of their on private property is the g pitcher covering one of our area fly over states so thanks I should include a couple notes though you should mention that the Truman Library is temporarily closed the US Cavalry Museum the original stables are still there custer's house on the base is also a historic site one nps site not mentioned is who said I enjoy listening to the latest podcast you covered a lot spent a few weekends there this spring I know you can't mention everything but I thought I could
Inside the Houston surge
"Post reports is brought to you by Purina. PURINA cares about a clean future. That's why they have hundreds of recipes crafted without artificial flavors or preservatives on top of that they are committed to using more recyclable pet food packaging. Learn more. PURINA DOT com slash cares. From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this post reports I'm Martine powers. Friday July seventeen. For the past two months, Texans have forged a bond of unity and trust. Just as we united as one st to slow Cova Nineteen, we must also come together to begin rebuilding the lives in the livelihoods of our fellow Texas. Since Lawrence. Back in late, April Greg Abbott, the governor of Texas announced that he was beginning to reopen the state's economy so with my. New Executive Order. All retail stores, restaurants movie theaters and malls can reopen. May the first. And then same press conference he also talked about masks, and he put limits on. How much local leaders could actually enforce mask-wearing? We strongly recommend that everyone where mess. However. Is Not a mandate. Texas was one of the first states in the country to push forward with reopening at the economy, and they were doing this over the objections of public health experts. WHO said that it was way too soon. But for awhile it seemed like things were going okay until they weren't the moment memorial day around memorial. Day started coming around. That's when I was like. Oh here we go because you could see the beach parties. He can see Galveston already. See like all these different things posting certain people. You knew that's Kartik, Valeri, he's a doctor based in Houston and so is Brad Lemke and S. we followed trajectory, and we started seeing those cases rise. We knew it would. We just didn't know how quickly and how much and I think that started to accelerate again it really. Gave US pause since Memorial Day Texas has been staring down a second surge of Kobe's cases a surge that's much larger and longer than what they saw earlier in the spring. It's especially bad in Houston, which is part of Harris County County with the highest number of Kobe's cases and the state. In late June as numbers continued to spike, we wanted to hear what it was like for doctors trying to deal with this and for the past three weeks. We've been checking in with them over the phone. Four doctors at two of the largest hospitals in Houston Baylor Saint Luke's and Herman Memorial. These are huge hospitals that look a little mini downtown. They meet together. Together under one umbrella called TMC which is Texas. Medical Center. It's actually the largest medical complex in the world, so Texas medical. Center talks to all the all these directors unifies front for this area besides Dr Lori Dr. Lemke chief medical officer for also here. Dr Michele Lor I am a surgical intensive sent in Dr Bella Patel. I'm a pulmonary critical care physician. I started talking to these doctors on July first. Say Thursday! Friday today's Wednesday the Wednesday, sorry, sorry, yeah, so Wednesday this day, TMC reports one thousand, one, hundred, ninety, eight new Kobe cases in the Houston area. So. When did you start seeing more patients coming in for this surge? That's happening now this. Last week. Last week it started pretty much last Monday, we saw the trickle June twentieth to the twenty four th. We saw a nice incline on then from the twenty four to twenty six. We saw that step pattern where it's like exponential growth like how much of an increase per day in terms of the number of patients. For example if I talked to you about my hospital, which be provided for the first part of this serves like seventy five beds, right? We are at how more than more than half of that already up within a week so just in general you know we've got about within our healthcare system about four times as many patients as we did at maximum. Maybe three and a half to four times. Wow, that's a lot, so yeah, it's as a significant increase. At what percent capacity are you guys at right now? You have to think about it. In multiple different ways, there's complete physical capacity, and we're not even work anywhere close physical capacity, but just as you staff up as volumes increase, you know we are close to that staffed capacity, but as we surge, we bring in more staff at least from. My exposure, a lot of people here notice cared known frustrated. Thing is the first search sorta primed EST to know exactly what it would be like we as a hospital system where whole better prepared than we were in March. The thing that we personally looking which just like the rate rise of cases in New York City you. We thought this could be us, and so you. You know we're trying to prepare before that, but then really high speed preparation after that. It gave our nurses physicians. You know the opportunity to focus on learning to take care of these individuals I think the outcomes in New York City didn't have the advantage of learning from New York City they were doing it on the fly. We learned a ton of how best take care of these patients. April our peak or I search prior to that surge the way that at least my hospital prepared was we made it into orange, yellow and red to orange would be anywhere between zero and fifty ICU beds, and ninety to one fifty. Which you've called read that's that's our maximum capacity. We'd have to literally shift patients to like different remote parts of the hospital or a new hospital that they're building i. mean we were ready for that, but we were mentally preparing ourselves that if it did come to that, that's what would happen. So pointed you get to during that first surge, we got to the orange level, so we got up to the seventies, and that's the middle one the middle one. It was handleable like we had staffing for space for it. What are the types of patients that you are seeing? Come in when you think about the first surge? The patients that were coming in were older and sicker. The average ages were sixty five, and about sixty to sixty five percent of those were in the intensive care units. The second surge at least initially has been younger patients. Really there is, it's about ten years difference, and it kind of tells us that our elderly most vulnerable population staying at home to be cautious, but our younger populations are getting out about. Is your sense among doctors that you would like to see just you know for the health of your patients, and for the ability of the hospital to deal with this that you would like to see things close back at least for a little while while you kind of get through the second wave I think we're GONNA have to. Key certainly is not to open up. To the extent, the infections rise to out. Pace your hospital capacity. And Right now we've got the capacity you know in three weeks. We still hope we have. The capacity just depends on that trajectory. Six weeks from now if if we haven't turned the corner I think we're. We'll have to be very innovative to continue to take care of the patients. That's where we worry in, so we hope that we're able to scale back some of these social interactions. My opinion is that I. Just wish we waited till fourth of July, we could have used two months off just a little bit more time. And and what do you think should happen right now? So I think we've already started what we did three months ago again right now. We're back to square. One things are slowing down and shutting down and socially distancing again, but because mask thing man this gigantic debate about this mask I mean it's like okay. Are People Actually GonNa, listen or are they still going to find other ways to socialize like this is not a punishment. Not Nobody's trying to punish anyone. We're trying to attack each other. July second. TMC reports two thousand and eighty two new cova cases in the Houston. Area High Yeah Dr, Laura spoke with post reports producer ten multi. I mean I think we're like all so hopeful. Things are looking better both in the hospital and in normalized and then. Munich think started to get worse again and so. It's been hard at instead just to you know have. I guess it's like more like Like a frustration disappointment thing now things are getting worse again, and so that that part it's been hard. What's the atmosphere right now in the hospital? So I would say that there's mixed feelings you know from my end again I'm not in Kobe in right now and so I'm kind of on the fringes of the critical care experiences, not really dealing with Kobe patients and I think you know I guess I would say from overall attitude. See like it's like we're. We're holding together like a more of a stamina thing like we really got to keep up being careful with ourselves and. Our own protection and also just trudge through this take care of everyone. It's definitely a weird juxtaposition of feelings you know we're still all like really worried for own hills, especially as the circles of people getting sick at seems to get closer and closer to us. Both, in hassle out of the hospital. Also kind of trying to return back to normal joe some semblance of normal, so you're now just off of been few weeks now, but Do you expect that you might get called back in if things keep getting worse? Yes, Oh, I, am on A. Team of five people and right now. Working in just a regular surgical ICU take care, surgical patients but some of my surgery partners are actually going back to take care cove and patients in the next couple of weeks. Probably next on the lineup so once they're completed their weeks that they still need help. It'll probably be me going back there. When I speak to Houston doctors versus you know doctors at Mount Sinai from back in April. You guys are sent a lot more exhausted really. I. Am I mean I think that. We're all hopeful that we're going to get through this. It's not necessarily that it's the light at the end of the tunnel. Just that we're going to adapt and be able to figure this when out and you know. Maybe it is a long haul, but. Things are different in. It's just about getting you so that new different. Texans are resilient. We are tough and we are determined. Right around the time that Ted was talking to Dr Laura, Governor Abbott announced he was changing his mind about masks. Cova nineteen is not going away. In fact. Is Getting worse. That is why today. I am issuing a face covering requirement for all counties with more than twenty Cova cases. Now I know that wearing face covering is not the convenient thing do. But I also know. July third high. Until. TMC reports one thousand, eight, hundred nine new Cova cases in the Houston area. Today this morning was our highest volume that we've had across our system in on our campus and so so it's concerning and I worry about that being fourth of July weekend. Obviously, so thank goodness. We do have a mandatory masking order as of a few hours ago in the state of Texas. And that we've been trying to continue to educate our. Our public to make sure that they really do everything they can decrease virus, but I think that the next few weeks are GonNa be very difficult because the number of cases continue to increase in Houston. What? At at what percent capacity are you all at now? Our, how would you describe the amount of patients that you're seeing and caring for right now versus like what you have prepared for as worse case scenario. Where clearly past what? We consider normal capacity if we weren't taking care of covid nineteen patients. In the medical ICU, US, we've actually doubled our MSU capacity which which now for next week were preparing to take over other parts of the hospital that have critical care and preparing beds there so right now every patient that comes into the e we can take care of and I certainly think that we will be even three weeks from now, but we will be stretching resources when you think about the next few weeks in next couple months. Obviously you're. You're worried that things are going to get worse. What do you see as the possible like best-case scenario, worst-case scenario of how you'll see these cases develop, and and that that total number change well one of the things. Clearly consider is how many of our healthcare providers or getting sick in the community and decreasing our ability to manage patients, so the worst case scenario is our healthcare. Workers Continue to acquire covid nineteen for various different sources. Most of them are actually from the community, just living in our environment. I worry about that balance of. Yes, we may have beds, but do we have enough? Healthcare providers to manage our patients So that's my worst case scenario when that balanced starts going. A little sideways? July fourth. TMC reports one, thousand, six, hundred and eighty, two new positive cases in the Houston area. My name is Kartik Blurry Brad Lamm Kim. Today Is July Ninth Two Thousand Twenty TMC reports. And three hundred nineteen new positive cases in the Houston area. The last we talked was about ten days ago I think. What has changed in the past ten days in terms of what you guys are dealing with. You know! We just had this kind of steamroll constant. Pressure of growth of COVID cases. You know compared to ten days ago. We probably have again. Another. Fifty percent I'm just going off memory now of Cova patients within our health system and throughout Houston. I gotta be honest with you. It's just a number of the our full right as people waiting, there's people being diverted to other yards or other urgent care centers. So, but the full er! We had pretty much in the entire medical center from eight days ago in the critical care units. Overall and TMC we boosted up from four hundred in overall medical center to now we're at six fifty. So that's a pretty start steep increase, so that statistically tells me the the number of critical care. Patients are increasing not as fast as they weren't surge one, but it's a steady slow incline. I mean it's still on. The road is still going, and it looks like it's still bristol climbing uphill. What are you seeing on? The the patient side in terms of the? Level of seriousness that people get when they have it, and also the the death rate that you guys are dealing with the good thing is that mortality is much lower and I think the reason is a few things. We've learned how to treat patients a little differently from the first time in. Length linked stays or a little bit shorter. Less than winning up in our intensive care units less of them are ending up on the ventilators. And, so that's good news. Another thing I'm personally seeing is in disccan. Just be anecdotal, but majority the Hispanic. Population I mean Jordan of my patients on my list or Hispanic. But Causation Association for that is I. Don't know I'm just telling you what I'm seeing. And then the other thing is received a lot more. Healthcare, workers clusters of healthcare workers, being affected than the previous with I search, so this is the weird thing and people are definitely looking into it right. There's a huge surveillance program I have to get tested every week. I got my tests back yesterday's negatives. That's another another front in the management of this. What has been the hardest moments of the last ten days right now. My services, basically this super specialized service in which the medical ICU doctors. Try to maximize oxygenation on these patients, and when they come to a point where they can't. They can't do anything with the machines. The ventilators and we started deciding who we put on ECM oh. And that's the extra corporeal membrane oxygenation. That's when we like. Take the blood out of your body could into a machine which gives you oxygen. And put it back in you so this procedure this process to put someone on Echo. It's not that easy is a highly complex procedure in which you know, we'd literally. Bypass your lungs and there's a Lotta complications that come from that. And certain patients cannot tolerate this so over time nationally there's been criteria set up on who can get it. WHO's eligible and is based on the various things right plus our own clinical judgement so it you know you make a decision, and then at that point, this gets heavy. This is why it's been crazy that. These patients are alone in this room and the only people around the healthcare workers. The nurses ourselves. Intents and We have two phone call to family. and tell them for example the hardest one was this patient we knew deteriorating an initially they were. He was conflict in our before, but he didn't really meet the criteria with you wanted to wait. Maximize radical keeping before we subjected him to echo, but the thing is after that happened. I was on this one of the phone calls and then. We told them that. You know they're not gonNA for this. And then you know the family wouldn't have to understand no matter what and how I explained to them like what you're, deny him this. I can't believe that you. Can you put him on this? Give them more oxygen, but you can't do it. Why aren't you doing? Why do you choose not to do in my? It's not me using not to do it about doing this on purpose is not. I'm not. You know I'm not a personal thing? I'm not I'm just trying to convey that. This is absolutely not a good idea to put him on it because. There's I mean it's not gonNA. Make a difference in the outcome and could potentially make things worse. It sounds Oh yeah. Oh, yeah, there's a lot more complications with that. Just getting on that machine can have major side effects are major complications, so it's not right, it's it's do no harm right. We don't want to harm the patient. Not that we have the technology we can use it. Yeah, what was he gonna arm the patient in that? It would that would be my clinical judgment, but thing is that when it's you and when is your family member? All scientific talk and all the crap I just said doesn't matter because that's your loved. One man, you know and all you're hearing, is that yes, there's something that can give them. Oxygen Disguise, not getting enough oxygen. FREAKING DAD MOM that's dealing with that and knowing and. that. No matter what you've done or how you try to explain it, but this family is in such despair because of the news, you just delivered, you know. And it's like you know it's it sucks. Really does that's there's no other word for it. How close do you think you are to the peak now? Depends on the model. You look at you, know I'm hopeful that this within the next two weeks. And then you see others that are less optimistic. In so that would put us into August sometimes. So now it's July ninth. You seen an uptick since like a week ago. And to what extent do you think that that is because people are still going out and doing like enjoying a holiday without being worried about pandemic. Next week by today, fourth of July impact should be starting to flare up K yesterday today. They should be starting. Hang symptoms if there are some dramatic a lot of symptomatic people out there, so they don't even know if they have the Rona you know. Let's say the people who are. Now is the time they would probably be come into matic. They'll probably brush it off for another few days. You know he nature then the moment are going to show. It can't smell their soap. They're going to cramp. Tested. So Joy Lemon, Don Words we'll see if it all. There's any effect from July fourth. My name is Bella veto and today's date. Is July tenth two thousand one? TMZ reports one thousand, six, hundred seven new positive cases in the Houston area. So far at least compared to a week or so ago, what are the kind of levers? You've had to press on to be able to absorb this this increase in the number of Kobe patience. We've started shutting down a lot of our elective surgeries to create more capacity, so we've taken to ice use that had covid. We've turned to more issue's into Cova, a receiving icy US We've taken other areas. The hospital and created were capacity for medical covid patients. We've even used our children's hospital and started taking younger adults in placing him there, so we can actually create more capacity, so we're using everything we can to try to increase more capacity and. And yet balanced the workforce that we have available to the number of vets, but we just still really hoping the curb is going to decline over the next week or so so we continue to stop having to expand every day. And what is your sense of how your colleagues are feeling about this and how? They're holding up now that they are in the middle of this. While you know I think we've had to use other colleagues, so we of the core people that core physicians and nurses that have been taking care of these patients. As we added units, we added other other help, so we recruited neuro, critical care and anesthesia critical care to help it. Some of the critically ill patients. We've asked for more volunteers for the hospital service, and so forth so I think that we've buffered the sharp line teams from being so stretched and so tired, so we're trying to maintain their level of not only attention, but energy and so forth. And so I think that they actually feel relieved that there's other teams now. Being activated to help take care of these patients so I. DO think that they're they're. They're showing resilience, but I think it's that same global. sadness that I think everyone feels of having to go through this. If you have been moving along the curve in the way that you all had predicted then if that continues, where will the peak be? And how soon will that be? All our predictions are the peak will be next week and perhaps the week after. We're hoping that in the next ten to fourteen days it will start declining and that a we will at least has declined through the month of. August before the fall comes. My name is Michelle Lord Today Is July Tenth Two thousand twenty. I ran into a CO worker yesterday in the locker room. And I just asked you know sort of her routine. How are you? And she stopped what she was doing, and she's like. This is tough and surly hard. You Know I. Go home. I can't do anything here at work. It's horrible. Everyone's just really not used to this being the new. Oh, this is the way things are kind of saying and I think that that's really gnawing at everyone in some ways than. Last time tonight talk. She had mentioned that the doctors in Houston seem really tired and I've been thinking about that statement a little bit since then. And I do I really think that that's true. in the beginning of this whole thing like March April when you know, things are just getting going. It was one of the things that seems way more surmountable like you know. We're GONNA. Get through this. Things are going to be okay. And when you were off of work like being quarantine was Kinda cool because you guys to do projects on your house, and there's all sorts of neat like online things to do now. It's like everybody's over the zoom. Happy Hour. Yeah, there's there's nothing cool about Corinthian. Anymore is nothing you know this whole. Being in the hospital and not really being able to see how things are going to resolve easily it is. It's getting very tiring. July fourteenth TMC reports two thousand, nine, hundred and sixty two new positive cases, the highest day by more than six hundred. or Another Day in the covert unit. and. It's full as ever. We have very large patients that we had to. Just integrate and. Now have to worry about. Moving images prone position. Be Difficult simultaneously we have another paycheck is. Nice to have another picture, he's not doing well. Families Talk To. Another day. Keeps going. All right. My name is Carter Hillary and today's Wednesday July fifteen. TMC reports two thousand, five, hundred and forty one new positive cases. So the last time we talked was six days ago and I actually I was gonNA look up now. The covid numbers for Tim Seaver Texas Medical Center. I mean it looks like over the last six days. It's basically been. Almost steady increase with like. Really big jumps from day to day in cove impatiens. Species in the ER, there's patients waiting to come in. We expanded to eight issues now so the next to going live by replacing within the next few weeks. How are you feeling about that? The thing I've noticed in the last six days I. Guess Because I didn't I've done a lot. More shifts were unable to auction it these patients. ICU At least I mean no matter what we do. Were unable to give them oxygen and I'm seeing. Young Obese people for example. Did they come in? We I mean mentally. It's horrible because I know where they're heading. This has become you. Sit there and you wait for things to go wrong because they will. End when they do you do everything you can play with the machines a little bit. Maybe some other medications you can think of rescue them, and then you sit back down and then you wake. It's like a marathon. Just keep going circles around the unit. Walk Around Eyeball Brooms I. Bother rooms and you just seed is constant turnover of more and more patients in the same predicament same situations. One success story is great like Yay. They're doing better Small victories. I think that's the most important thing to keep. In a unit I mean I'm GONNA be honest. You sound really tired. It's been. It's been a long week. I am married actually. What happens when somebody dies in the ICU? How does that process play out and then what happens after? If the patient codes and passes away. We do a complete neurological examination bioscience shy, and then we call time of death. And what is that like? It's I mean it's never right. Guy Story just ended or that person's story descended. That's where their loved ones you know. Nowadays it came in being the Damn Room. which is even worse, right that is. The most gut wrenching thing. They can't be there. Yeah, and some other patients but I do you know blocked my caller ID and facetime the wife for facetime months. Give it to them. When you make like a facetime call like that to a loved one of someone who has died. How do you even have that conversation for you? Set Up expectations. Sign out without much. They know already, and then you mentally prepare them. For the News and then you tell them news, he's got to be effective. No like false hopes southern. Up like. I'm sorry to tell you and I am very very sorry, but you know they pass usually. It's very rare that it happens after the passage usually before, and you have known that they are not going to be able to make it through the night or the next hour or the next few minutes is what's happening. And, of course, you can get emotion on the other side and you just gotTa be there with them through it. You just gotTa, you know. either. My name is Michelle. Laura. Today is July, Fifteenth Two thousand twenty. So I feel like I. have to go through a process even to get myself to the hospital these days. And, so you know spending some extra time. Having coffee is part of it, but even getting out of my car, sometimes at work is hard, and it takes me a few minutes. Ana I used to listen to NPR. My Way George and I've had to sometimes limit that because it makes me emotional. Sometimes, it's hard to listen to. Ideas spend a few minutes my car. I would say the beginning of work at the end of. just to get through and. Collect, my thoughts and Try to put on the optimism and positive energy that I need to get through the day or get to the evening with my family. Bradley Limpkey and it is July sixteenth. TMC reports two thousand, six, hundred and sixty one new positive cases. Doctors are still waiting to see whether the records spike after fourth of July will translate into even more hospitalizations throughout the rest of the month. Things could still get worse. So the total number of cases continue to grow in the in Harris County and surrounding areas. The number of hospitalizations have flattened a little bit. I guess it was just a few days that we hit another record. High number of new cases reported in Harris. County and The time line seems to coincide with July fourth. And when you have, those new cases reported than the concern. Is that they'll you know they're initially diagnosed and then within a week or two after that they'll become sick enough to be admitted to the hospital certain portion of them. So although we've we've had this slowing of admissions. And the kind of flattening of our senses has been again a optimistic sign. We just worry about what July fourth is going to do. Because again that will stress. The system began if we have a significant number of new cases needing to be admitted to the hospital. That same day we spoke to Dr Lung Kee. The State of Texas reported its highest single-day death count since the pandemic began. Point three, one fifty three. One six. Plus H man. The story was reported and produced by Ted. Muldoon and myself Martine powers. If you live in Houston, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the story and how your life has changed in the past few weeks. Send US an email at post reports at wash post dot com. Our executive producer is madly Cossiga our senior producer as Maggie. PENMAN are producers are Alexis de our Rena Flora's Lena, Muhammad Toward Murray Smith Rennie's for Nov key and Ted Muldoon who also composed our theme music. The Post Director of audio is just stall. I- Martine powers. We'll be back on Monday with more stories from the Washington Post.
Shahidul Alam - Politics Cannot Be Separated from My Art
"You're listening to the H.. Photography podcast for over forty years being H has been the professional source photography video audio and more for your favorite Robert Gear News and reviews visited dot com or download the beach up to your iphone or android device. Now here's your host. Alan White's greetings things and welcome to the beach. Photography podcast our guest today as shah dual allom. He of course is a photo journalist. He's also the founder of a photo agency a photo academy and a photo festival in his native Bangladesh. He's a writer and educator writer activist and one of time magazines persons of the year for two thousand thousand eighteen. This time they got right show Dulas in New York to celebrate an exhibit of his photography at the Rubin Museum of Art. The show Schaja allom truth to power open on November eighth and will run until May fourth twenty twenty. It's a wonderful exhibit and provides a glimpse into his four decade career. We also I WANNA thank the Rubin Museum for inviting us to see the exhibit and we also welcome our second guest. Dr Lawrence Walsh Repeat Guest. Lorne is an author and a scholar. Her latest book is conversations on conflict. Photography a powerful exploration of public responses to photographic coverage of war and humanitarian crises. In the book she profiles none other than our guest today shadow alarm as well as many other photographers. And Editors Walsh also runs the photo journalism lab at the Nyu Gallatin School of individualized study and is director of lost roles America a National Archive of Photography and memory which he discussed is with us on a previous show. Welcome back okay. Before we start a little bit of background. China was born and raised in Dhaka. Bangladesh he studied in Liverpool Report and earned a PhD in chemistry from London University. All while taking up a newfound hobby photography he returned to Bangladesh in one thousand nine hundred four with the goal of using his photographic and public speaking skills to cover protest movements and advocate for social justice in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine. He helped to establish the award-winning DRIK. Picture Library and majority World Picture Agency and later the Path Shala South Asian Media Institute and Jobe Mila International National Photography Festival. His photographs have been published in the New York. Times Time Magazine and National Geographic and he's exhibited at the Museum of Modern Art the tate modern and the Pompidou Centre his book. My journey as a witness has been described as being the most important book ever written by a photographer. He's the recipient of Lucie Award and she'll Piccolo Award which is the highest cultural award given to Bangladeshi artists as well as the only person of color to have chaired the prestigious international jury of world. Press photo it is an honor to have you here on our show today. Delighted to be here. My first ARISS question is in. I'm opening this of the both of you. What are some concrete steps that could protect journalists from the kind of repercussions of free speech? That you've suffered or in order or to ensure that any detained journalists gets the attention needed to grant their release. I think what happened is a very clear indicator of what can be done Before I was arrested several very high profile people had been arrested in Bangladesh or sent abroad and exile title made ineffective in other ways and gotten gotten away with it in my case suddenly hold world protested tested. They were protesting the streets and people in Bangladesh to greater risk. It was more dangerous for them. I think the fact that you can mobilize people at that level. The the the public solidarity and that international networking is very much part of the resistance. But somebody who doesn't quite have the high the profile filed that you might Is it fair to say that. They're not going to get that kind of attention. And therefore they the release the came or is this something that Absolutely true I think which is why. I think sure we as photographers do what we do. But building those networks is part of the strategy. The one has to have if if one has made a choice of becoming an activist one is going to walk through through power. You recognize that they will be powerful enemies that he will pick up up along the way as we need to learn how to use a camera how to use words we also need to be able to recognize that that part of social activism listen is part of the deal sets up needed I think it also just goes beyond journalism. I think the public needs to better better understand the value of journalism. So that when we hear the President United States responding to legitimate legitimate reporting calling get fake news. We need to push back against that I mean the committee to Protect Journalists among other organizations has tracked and his telling us that imprisonments are at record highs and I think we have to listen to this and learn from other things also helped today my facebook will yesterday my facebook account got hacked. And it's something that's been happening when I got arrested. The police got hold of my laptop my mobile phones and they had access assist to all my social media. I be able to recover most of them twitter. Sadly of not Perhaps they can cont- intervene here but it's there are told. There's an active team dedicated to hacking me constantly. So you need to counter at many levels on really have a much broader brought a team working before going real quick just backup. We're talking about that. You were arrested Two thousand eighteen. Could you give the background of what led up to your arrest and what you were ceiling. Who'd you take off on the twenty ninth of July two students meme on Raji Were run over by bus force. It very sad but what it led to was a countrywide protests. And I feel it was because we were on a tinderbox People were enraged with the corruption nepotism with repression the looting of the banks all the things that are going going on and this is a spot that led to it now. People get hit by blesses every day in what was different about this event. It wasn't so much that it it was different. It was a that it happened when it did and be the response. The the minister lofted off He said exactly sent people get run over every day. What's the big deal? And that was really the thing that lit That enraged the people but what happened in return was actually very very interesting. The students took to policing the streets. I'm brought order into streets that we've never for had ordering. They found that ministers. Were driving around with unlicensed vehicles Policemen went around. Who didn't have driver's licenses? Awesome things like that and what they did was they ensured that ambulances got through. VIP's didn't if they didn't have the right authorization and they pointed pointed fingers to the government in the sense that if untrained students in the streets with zero resources can run the streets. Well what Mrs Got Mentoring so I was reporting on that and then the gut macaques turned violent. They started attacking the students. I was documenting that too. So that's when I got attacked on the fourth of August I got beaten. My Pin smashed up I continued reporting on the fifth of August. Two thousand eighteen. I gave an interview to Sarah. I was at that time alone in the flat talking to the BBC because because I was going to do a report for them falling day The doorbell rang. I answered the door and suddenly hold talk about. I don't really know but I'm told that around thirty security people came in. I know what happens in my luggage on because I was was alone in the flat. I want to make sure that I didn't go quietly so I made as much noise as I could. I resist it as much as I could. And perhaps that those extra minutes. It's that I gained was what saved my life. You're talking about being on facebook at that point and we were just talking about these out ideas of what about this idea of pressuring these giant organizations twitter as you mentioned and facebook to to do their part to ensure the safety give journalists that are using their platforms completely. I mean I think they are not only social media platforms their publishing platforms today And therefore they can be used used and abused and they are abused. What for me is very worrying is what I hear the fact that our government have relationships with some some of these big organizations where they are allowed the back door so in our case it's particularly worrying because very recently there's been these reports through Pegasus that activists have actually been targeted using surveillance technology? And this is one of my bones of contention. I mean wild. We have governments which talked about freedom and democracy. It's the same governments out of selling surveillance technology to my government which is preying on activists. Obviously it's alive question right now especially with facebook. Will they at some point down the road be legally responsible for user generated content because they are just a platform they are a publisher as well. I mean I think until then the cyber training for journalists is incredibly important because harassment. It happens And there aren't really there are organizations that are putting together guidelines and standards like echoes alliance. But there aren't a lot of there aren't international standards for cyber security standards it we can take a step backwards a little bit I wanted to ask a bit about your education and training in the hard sciences And maybe you can give a little bit of background on how that transition happened into photography. And where in your life at that point. The Role of activism played but Is there anything from that training that that you've kept with you all these years That affects or enables you photography or or something you utilize photojournalist. There's two segments to question. I'll split them up the first about how it happened. I'm from amid glass. Home and young men from middle class. Homes are expected to get respectable professions. which at least according to my parents outcasts a My Mom's proud doctors engineers lawyers whatever you know been. My mum discovered. I was going to be a photographer of a bride for a main concern mother. Why the same concerns so You know that's through so I got into university getting into united studied biochemistry and genetics at Liverpool University then I started my PhD Organic Chemistry. But while I was doing that I got involved with the Socialist Workers Party and it was while I was with them that I began to be the involved in race rights gay rights inequality issues and a whole range of things which were about social justice and at that time it was the political SOLIDARNOSC Movement for the Liberation of Poland. And I could see how they were using images to maximum effect and I thought hey this as a tool yeah I began to think does does Bangladesh need yet. Another research chemist. But I thought with a camera I could probably chief something something that would bring about a change so that was my conscious decision about doing what I was doing. And you but your thoughts always worked to go back to Bangladesh regardless of how easily. Yeah completely I mean that's home that continues to be my home. I'm out on bail. I still face potential jail sentence fourteen years. But that's where I'm GONNA go I have the options that But in terms of what it does I think it's not so much the the technical skills that you learn but the process the fact that you recognize problem solving that you have an Ireland ethical. Approach that you can deconstruct truck to situation reduce it to elements that are needed. You can identified the weak links you can identify the rate limiting steps. Those zero standard parameters that apply across the board on Education always has a value. What was your contact with Bangladesh while you're overseas And basically getting your education and everything else. How often do you go back? And did you monitor. It was going on it. 'cause there's something to be said about being able to step back look at the situation more globally but there's also value to be right up front and looking at it from a macro point of did you have a good balance or was it just hunch haunch. I didn't have a good balance. I'd left home when I was seventeen And this was before into that And I certainly didn't have the money to go back home in between so I he's working my way through. I was working as a laborer day. Labor trying to find my way through university but of course lettuce still existed and I stayed in touch watch what was very important for me was the fact that I been through this war of liberation and they were these people back there who had left behind I knew what so many people had sacrificed their lives for a pseudo. There was that hunger to go back and play my role. I stayed in touch obviously in whatever way I could but there was a gap. There were very very important. Transition is and because of that gap when I came back in nineteen ninety four and discovered that a general had taken over my country. I thought this is not the country we fought for on. It was imperative for me to bring it back back story that the camera that you first started shooting with with something you bought for a friend and is obviously I mean. This was while I was at university. Freddie Laker introduced Laker Airways. which is the budget airline You could get a flight from London to New York on what they call the sky train for ninety pounds. I thought you know I'm a poor student. This is my chance to go to the United States so I was about to buy that ticket and this friend of Mine Not University said the Dole is low the. US IS A good place to buy cameras. Why did you buy me one so I turned up? This was before being h I still found the cheap shops which sell good days and cameras coverage so I bought a new slogan. Sorry so I bought an the Nikkei fem a rickety tripod a flash cut deeping by an attempt. I hitched round the united. Those were the days. You could still each ser. So I hitched around the United United States and Canada took some pictures with me. I came back to London. My Mate didn't have the money to pay for the camera sites that I was very happy accident. I'd say Jason say so we're elements so learn. You written a book conversations on conflict photography and and so he is One of the people you profile. Can you maybe speak a little bit about the conversations that you had and maybe distinguish it a bit from some of the other photographers that you spoke to For the book. Sure so the book. It's a series of interviews with this photographers. Who've covered conflict around the world and then photo editors and then also I did interviews with major human rights and humanitarian organisations because they're leading funders and distributors distributors of Conflict Imagery in terms of distinguishing? The perspectives I mean. It was very important to me to have a diverse breath of voices in the book. I mean really what I wanted to do was give voice to the people who make and distribute this kind of imagery and I wrote a few essays that contextualized I realize it but I was looking at it from a an American or western point of view and thinking about how do we respond to images as of crisis or suffering war that come to us from far away so I wasn't looking at domestic conflicts And I with that in mind is the the history of photo. Journalism is more male the not and more Western than not so. This book was very conscious in saying. I WANNA speak with male and female practitioners. I WANNA be. I WANNA have western and non Western voices so the the anecdotes and experiences that the photographers relate late They carry some of these differences with them. I can speak to Shahidullah about what does it mean to be a local photographer. And what what were your experiences when you talk to me about the cyclone and what happened with coverage for New York Times And then I would ask similar questions of American carvers carvers to say. Well what does it mean for you to fly to somewhere in Africa. Document a famine or war so it was each interview is distinguished insofar as it. What is the role of conflict imagery from that one person's experiences and perspectives and because everyone brings is a different perspective? You get these. It's really a polyphony of voices and experiences and I I spoke to people who've been covering for up to forty years so it's kind of also also a history of the world Inside three hundred pages and and is it fair to say that we are seeing. Maybe a change toward toward A photo journalism that that that respects the locals who are doing you know who actually involved with the the event Previously photographers might have been flown in to cover Or is that something that still needs a lot of work. I think if we look back over the decades they're absolutely more more local photographers. Who are working? And there's a number of reasons for this The gear is is not as hard to get. We also have the rise of Citizen Journalism which opens a whole set of questions because then are you trained in the same journalistic standards that had news? Doing audience would expect. I still think there's a definite imbalance In terms of especially and Shahidul and I were talking about this who has the ability to get there. Let's say images for talking sheriff you images out through some of the most powerful media entities in the world I mean I think some of the wire services are working a lot more with local photographers but then that it opens a whole set of questions of Local photographers face greater risks. Any precautions if you have an American passport for you can leave a country if things go really wrong. It's a lot harder if you're the local Afghani photographer or the local Mexican photographer. uh-huh so I yeah I think there have been many strides forward and I think there's still quite a bit of work to be done that same note. Do you find that your experiences overseas with higher education and exposure to Europe and the United States is helping you go back now as opposed to somebody of equal skill to you who's never left Bangladesh. Who doesn't have the worldliness that you do have of course I think it's I'm here talking to you on today. Because of some of those connections there are perfectly competent. Great photographer out there is work is never been seen scene. One of the things we've done is built an archive and within that collected the work of great photographers whose work should be known and What many people do not know about for instances that the war of liberation of nine hundred seventy one was not only a seminal event in terms of world history but also seminal event in terms of welfare graphic history? The crates of photojournalism. Were there Mary Ellen. Mark David Bernez Don mcallen Bruno. BARBADE dipoto Ruggeri Abbass. Rashid thought GA percents. They ruled that yet. It's this typically collection of that work. There's never been an exhibit until we began collecting it. The this had never been assimilated and that has has many reasons. I mean I'm cynical. It's an at times and I think got independent at the wrong time. Gone Independence on the sixteenth of December. which it was just too close to Christmas? Well I mean in the middle of a war in Southeast Asia. Obviously you know this is before for the Internet digital and analog days page spreads and things are set up and it takes a lot of doing to dislodge Christmas. That's can we talk a little bit about but but the drik picture picture the library and and when you realize that was something that was kind of fundamental to the to the purpose that you were going for as opposed to just taking your own pictures and doing your best to get them out there. I I was having a show in Belfast And I was staying with friends in newry. which is a town close to Belfast? And they they didn't have big house. Oh so they had a little daughter Karina five year old And Corinna went to mom and dad's room to make room fun culture heater so I'm there I come in from the show one day and empty my pockets putting some coins on the table and Corinna standing in the doorway usually she runs up to me jumps to my op. We tell each other stories but that day she just stood there and I said what's the matter Carina. She says you got money. I said yes. Got Money and goes but but you're from Bangladesh. She could make it fit and got me thinking about the sort of social political cultural space within which a five year old throws up wishes incapable of seeing a Bangladeshi as anything other than an icon of poverty. And I got to think you know it has to do with who controls the narrative And there is this beautiful African expression. Rico's something like until the lions find their storytellers stories. Stories about hunting will always glorify hunter. I thought well it's about time the lines found storytellers. And I knew by. Then I'd work with with agencies overseas and I knew how the dissemination worked and I thought okay. We need to build up an agency but we decided not to open open it in the conventional spaces of Paris London New York but to set it up in Bangladesh. Because that's where photographers were. But they were challenges. Alan just to go with art as well as I say this way before internet or whatever so what. Many people don't realize we introduced email to Bangladesh in the early nineties. Because we having decided we would be in the backwaters. We then needed that light line. So we actually introduced email and built a south-south at south but globally through which could disseminate our oil. Okay we spoiled. We are definitely spoiled. Uh I was going through Lawrence Book and the Texas Amazing and the photographs are very very powerful. And you've been working on this project for about ten years now and you're looking at a lot of photographs of conflict and they're not always pretty and I'll open this question. Both of you have these pictures effect. You have to well you have to step back because it could really become powerful to look at this stuff. I just sitting here going through the book for ten minutes. I was moved. Good ways and bad ways you live with this. Do you need to take breaks from it. Or how do you process. All of us So the book was for years. But I've been working in this time on on this topic. Broadly conflict photography for about ten Yes I I have gotten more able to look at got some kind of quote unquote hard images and usually that means graphic or violent images and I I think of it akin to it's the way officer. A surgeon grows overtime rates. You start out as a medical student. At some point you have to do a dissection of a human body and I imagined that that is is very difficult the first time you have to put a scalpel to skin and I imagine it's difficult the second time and then it gets easier and easier and if I needed to have surgery I don't want want a surgeon who isn't capable of doing it in a very confident not squeamish way right. They have to get used to what they're doing. So in that sense MM-HMM I think there are some images that other people would find very graphic and it's easier for me to look at them some kinds of Like certain kinds of let's say a gunshot wound The images that for me never seem to lose that punch to the stomach are when I see pictures of children in enormous pain or severely malnourished or when I see pictures of children who are dead and the parents are somewhere in the frame of the of the in that same frame because the parents her almost always if not always the agony is is written into their faces. It's it's just seems the most devastating thing that could happen to someone so I find find those very they continue to be powerful images and I thought about this In putting together the book. There's a balance between some hard graphic imagery. There's there's beautiful images in this book as well there's beautifully serene images including one by Shahidullah. Where you have to understand it in context to realize actually this is very a very haunting the crossfire photograph so in terms of how do you deal with it? I think recognizing that images can be painful and talking. I mean I'd certainly we talk to colleagues and Photographer friends about I find that. Actually just talking about it and acknowledging it is helpful for me and unhelpful for others in. Because I don't want to in fact become numb to someone else's pain I don't WanNa ever get to a point where I can look at. Someone's his extreme suffering and say it doesn't matter to me anymore and you talked about that somewhat being seed for the book itself responses from students. Can you show them you know painful images and they just didn't want to bother. The entire book started because of an episode and one of my classes at. And why you where we were. It was of course on conflict imaging and ethics Until we were asking questions like what does it mean to look someone else's suffering and we were studying a famine that happened in Sudan in the early nineteen nineties and so the students read about the history of it there at about the political forces they looked at the photographic coverage of it and they read the critiques of the coverage and they came into class and I was just about to start the lecture and I put up the first image which was from their assigned work. And it's a photo is black and white. It's at A feeding center in Sudan and it shows a man who is severely severely emaciated you really skin and bones. And he's too weak to stand so he's crawling on the ground and I think it's a I think it's an image that Sh- really confronts you with what can happen into the human form like in a in a very terrible circumstance and so I was just about to start. Speaking in a student raised his hand and said professor. I know why you're putting that picture trope. It's such a Downer and I have plans tonight and I don't feel like I should be made to feel by looking at it. I have nothing to do with his suffering so the book then became a I I initially. I froze I didn't know what to do Because I'd never had students that it's not it's not even a required class like they all have elected to be in that class But I thought about his response more and more and it was actually after Having a conversation with the photographer friend who covers conflict around the world and telling him the anecdote and I thought he was going to say something. Like millennials are so selfish or that was so obnoxious and he said the opposite acid- he said. I'm not sure why you're surprised. It's not provocative. I hear this all the time so that was when I thought okay. Well if that is a response then the first question I was asking was then. What's the point of this kind of imagery and I personally think there is tremendous value to documenting conflict And so so then. The book became This endeavor to understand. How do you do this? We're speaking giving voice to the practitioners. How do you do this work? Why you you do this work? What successes and failures do you encounter? And I was very interested in continuing the line that had started in my classroom which was thinking about all the ethical all components of work. Especially when you're in settings that are in in some cases life or death in in your book you have. The photograph is picture in particular of the Boston. Marathon breath on bombing one of the survivors. Being wheeled off his foot is straight out and below the knee you just see. A Shin Bone sticking out and some muscle and the was published just cropped just before the knee because the editors thought that was just a little bit too graphic and a little bit. Two bloody How do you deal with that? I mean where do you draw a line. How do you push maybe just jump in here? Look at to say that I mean in your exhibit. There there are very few violent images. You're torturing conflict and war and social unrest Do you you feel. Do you find that it's necessary to show the abject violence in order to make the point you WanNa make an and over the years of seeing how your photos have been reacted to do you find one an or another doing more as it were well. Lauren was referring to a particular body. What called crossfire? Which is about extrajudicial killings and when I started doing the work I considered what should be the imagery because would showing more bodies Actually add to either our information or our response to it We decided to take a very different position position. They were tactical reasons as well. I mean in the sense. I live in work in a very repressive environment and I want to make sure that my work can a slip in That I can actually show my way. So we did extensive research And then we decided to produce images based on what we assumed would be the last site off the dying person but we did some certain things which contextualized for instance All the debts all the killings had taken place in at night. Several photograph was taken at at that point in time early as the morning. Whenever the killing taking place we talked to the family members who survived and he said well the first thing we saw with these torches being shown on my face so every picture has been lit by torchlight so there are very subtle things which it's only when you begin to deconstruct that image? You realize is that element within it but that show has until until now being the most successful show I've ever had including the fact that when the government closed it down we took the government to court and we we were able to get the show reopened it's been shown in major festivals being. It's been on the front cover of amnesty human rights. Watch and it. It has been a tool for activism for many people who've begun to use it. Now I remember having a conversation with Christian cajole I think it was in Barcelona where he was talking about how we were wondering whether had Eugene Smith Been Alive today he would. He would have photograph Pittsburgh the same as he did. Then we don't know for sure but I I would like to think that he would have found a different way of telling the story. Because the landscape the media landscape is shifted the language of choice Sir and Shakespeare and Dickens and Salman Rushdie an entity. Roy are all very very very different each appropriate for a particular point in time yet as photographers. We've often felt that bb purist and this is the only way hey to render and produce image the fact that people respond differently that the environment is different is something we need to respond to to come back to your. Oh question about What is happening? I think what drives me. It's the knowledge that while we hear sitting in this lovely studio it'd be an H.. There are people dying there that are people being disappeared. There are people facing horrendous consequences for standing up for their rights. Her and while that is happening this is not an academic exercise. It is not an exhibition or a project of some sort. This is about people's lives and if that's the case that keeps you the adrenaline I think just on that point though I mean the questions that you're asking Alan Alan. Those are some of the things that I really wanted. An it comes up a lot in the section of interviews with the photo editors right what is too graphic and how do you define defined quote unquote. Too graphic are you giving more dignity to let's say the American victim versus the black or brown body from another part of the world how you're treating the subjects in the photographs And these kinds of questions of what we see and what we don't see so that's all kind of connected to the question you raise as before and in terms of graphic imagery you know the photograph of The victims named from the Boston Marathon bombing is Jeff Bauman and it really. He is a very graphic photograph And if one of your goals is as a news entity is to get people to engage with to look at the image and read about it with with very graphic imagery you do run the risk of revulsion. It's too much and people then and you've lost your news reader. I I personally think there are times when The the very graphic image should still be taken right and it may not. We need to be published in the newspaper but The interview. Let's say with Human Rights Watch talks about this. Or there's a photograph by Ron Haviv in the the book. The picture of ethnic cleansing mates it's para-military standing over the bodies of executed civilians. And it's a photograph that will that one was published quite widely. But it's also a photograph that came back later on to be used to prosecute to indict in prosecute criminals. And I think in that sense sometimes. The graphic imagery The graphic imagery. That isn't let's say used. Initially as journalism can be used as evidence in courts of law conscience Kupuna Reno which photograph if you're referring to him and also about your sh the show crossfire and this idea that you know the the viewer needs to understand the context and therefore is engaged more with this the series and therefore it might be more effective simply because they are engaged as opposed to that very graphic image that they may look for a second look away you know what I I mean. So obviously the viewers key to any kind of activism to go beyond that and and I speak as an activist activists. You know. I'm not trying to produce the perfect image I'm trying to produce the most effective image And at the end of the day it is not merely the image but how it is used on with crossfire for instance. We've had it in conventional magazines that British Journal of Photography and other traditional photographic outlets. But it's also going to museums. It's gone to galleries. It's it's been used by activists in the streets streets and it's been used on the cover of amnesty and Human Rights Watch so that multiplicity of use is not something that lends itself off to every image and perhaps certain images are better able to overcome those barriers. I also I I I just I found it so fascinating and I think it's really worth pointing out That because the book covers the history of the world I worked for the fact Checker To to fact everything we learned in the process that after he duels crow show crossfire was up in Bangladesh. The number of extrajudicial show killings by this killing force went down shine a light question. Russian that has slightly do this These newspapers traditional even online news agencies are are the most effective way still For underrepresented stories to be told you spoke about a show at a mosque and You have a museum and obviously there many now uh nontraditional. Let's say ways to get images out there even a poster on a street that somebody carrying. Do you think that the were kind of over this this kind kind of the mass. Let's say mass journalism Is it still effective is still useful for the types of stories that you want to tell. I don't think there is one answer. I I think that in itself is what needs to. You need to take every situation and work best to it. And I think we need that plurality. Not You know. The online space. Is the traditional spaces social media word of mouth. All of that are valid Some but better in certain situations than others I I work in an environment where let's say in Bangladesh for instance. The printed newspaper is still increasing circulation. which is exactly the opposite of what's happening out here and it will change? There will be a time when that will shift but until it does I will recognize the imminent. Will your photos or photos of your colleagues that you respect who are working in these these stories. Will they find their way into into a Bangladeshi newspaper. That will depend very much upon what what how we've arranged to it because some of of it is not even about the newspaper. This you may know of this various famous Pulitzer winning picture of Michelle Laura of the banning of the Biharis in Bangladesh. Now Russia Talukdar. One of our photographers also took a very strong picture that time he never published it because publishing it would be equivalent to signing his own death warrant. The people who did the banting was still very much in control. It was only in Nineteen ninety-three three twenty two years later. I was able to convince him that it was now safe to publish that picture. So those are part of what happens you you know you. You need to negotiate that space. But I think one of the things where we have lost out as photography's we to solarge extent have felt that the photograph images all there is to it. I think many other things happen to happen. Be Around contextualising. It is important. I I think it's vital that photography writers I think we I still retailers need to find multiple ways of telling stories of engaging and once we're able to do that our work then becomes so much more usable by by the media itself. It's when it's a uni-polar in a Polish single image standing on its own it has limited potential when we were at the museum earlier. EU brought up Sunday. It was kind of interesting where you will be putting a show in a mosque. And you're getting a lot of pushback about that and the way you explained things to them change these things around. Can you go over that again. Because I thought that was very amazingly very tactically us will I I live and work in Bangladesh where many many people think fed graphs are haram. You know For instance if there's a funeral the photographs will be turned a ten round because it's not considered proper for photographs to be there in religious situation. I had chosen synagogues and churches and temples at never shown in a mosque. Because was it was considered impossible to and I'm very conscious off Islamaphobia of xenophobia and the perceptions about Islam and I want to dress that at the same time I also wanted places like musk's to become known for what their true the potential is So the first challenge was convincing the mosque that I can show work in it. It's a very beautiful must by the way at one dollar kind of what your tech Designed by a woman land is to mate donated by her grandmother so those elements to it as well And I took photographs but before he nice started taking photographs. I spoke to the mosque committee until them why I wanted to do it and I reminded them mm of how Prophet Mohammad had used his. Musk the fact that his mosque in Medina was an education center. A Cultural Center into a community center A hospital it sheltered women met state dignitaries in the mosque but there it was an art troupe from Abyssinia who came and said to the Prophet where can be show. We have no place to show our work and he said show it. In My mosque it became a gallery. If during the prophets time ago a musket have such a wonderfully diverse range of usage. Why have you reduced? And it's not just for true from us. It's true of places of prayer. In a sense I think religion and has been reduced to very clinical actions about which have to do with praying and proselytizing and older set of things whereas it is part out of human life and be forgotten that so that is a show. I'm now trying to show. Wildest Ruben shows going on perhaps in moss around the country speaking of the show. Can we talk a little bit about that. And how you organize that you mentioned that It is organized as a kind of trilogy. Is that true or really one show within within not aspect. I mean it. I don't know if it's what I expected. Necessarily the whole show. I mean there's kind of a retrospective aspect But there's also you're dealing with certain particular stories within this. Can you talk a little bit about a couple of those The Ruben show it's billed as a retrospective. There's only so much you can show so there. There are significant chapters which are not there for instance crossfire. But what we've tried to do a a two things. One is look at the trajectory of my attempt for social justice which is underpinned underpins the entire show but also the various vocabularies that I've tried to us from traditional black and white photo repertoire as Magnum and other agencies would have done to find out conceptual chill work and places where I've ensured that the politics of my work is embedded within the artwork itself because one of the things that had happened happened in the very first body of work which I did which is called the struggle for democracy I was looking at politics The resistance to generally shot and there is a sequence of pictures which are about a flood that take place it was them biggest flooding in a century. An juxtaposed without is these are the photographs of wedding a hugely opulent wedding. That had taken place. It was the daughter very powerful minister now. The juxtaposition the position made it very stock. Here was this wedding taking place out of time with the nation is really under those floods That made it difficult because that was what scared off my sponsors versa and I stopped getting out. None of the galleries would be prepared to show the work. So that ah led to a whole different set of things towards you a lesson yes we built gallery. You know. It's it's looked at politics with appea- but also Class divides gender shoes environmental issues military occupation a whole range of things but covered. It did not work but later on I've looked at things like disappearance Be talked about the crossfire. Show the The show about the culpeper culpeper Chuck Norris Indigenous. A woman who was picked up at the military on the twelfth of June nineteen. Ninety six works for me was very significant because we had fought our war for the right to speak our language yet within our own nation. Be Denying other people to speak. There's that for me would so staggering. The word indigenous is something that cannot be used. It's is being banned by our Constitution. You cannot use the word indigenous in English so I began on the twelfth of June two thousand thirteen gene and the next two years on the twelfth of June producing a new body of work. The first body I did was using forensic technology technology to look look at what I considered the silent witnesses so I collected objects along the path of a last journey and photograph in the clarify. This was the young woman who was disappeared. She she was. She was picked up by the military on the night of the twelfth of June nineteen ninety six and what was her offense. She was an activist. She wanted rights for her people. Okay a so on. The investigation is still ongoing going. I thought well if you've got to do an investigation. What do you do right at the beginning? You do the forensic study the words of bungalows like me and the military were taken into account for the Bihari Voices. Whenever heard so? I thought I would interrogate the silent. Witnesses and it's. It's work that I did in initially in Bangladesh than in Britain Germany eventually in Australia And produce those High magnification images through fluorescent photography. I then did other body of work where I tried to show the person and we were talking earlier on about how you felt that there was actually a person then Dan yes I still WANNA go back. I'm I'm convinced there was somebody. I don't care what you see. On the next body of work was about the champions Champions of culpable the people who've carried on the fight which includes my partner which includes Sara Hussain. WHO's the lawyer who who stood up for me one of his jail on CIDER gourock again? Someone who I've been working with for a long time class. What sorry to interrupt up at the the motivation to take on this story in this manner with the forensic photography styling was as something that you felt was born from the story itself or was it something that you said you know what I this is something? I'd like to do as a photographer. I'd like to investigate in this terms and use a different set of skills. Well my my partner actually asked me a very pertinent question She said let me ask you a silly question. Isn't it all in the imagination you say. Of course it was in my imagination but I felt through that imagination. I could unlock some doors. AUSE and there were two things I wanted to do. One point out that the process of investigation was flawed seriously flawed. But also. Here's a person and there are no photographs of this woman This has happened at when I was doing the work had happened. What Sixteen years ago seventeen years ago you know. What am I going to photograph seventeen years after the event and I thought there are still people? There are still objects that can speak to me and of course as a photographer. I need something visual so I need to find a visual way of rendering story story. So that's how I began then. I thought the other challenges we need to bring her live. This is a woman who is flesh and blood who was picked away taken away from us. This is my sister who no longer exists. I need to bring back by sister. So the next body of work which is where you thought that she was there she is. I'm sorry so in that sense I've been success with the third one which was on the straw mats actually had to do with a broader range of issues because we have now begun a campaign called no more as the name suggests suggests these are things we think society should not tolerate and we began it with south work about the government accidents that are taking place in Bangladesh. We didn't in confident Chatman. We've continued with crossfire. And all these other things so in that particular story we want to include something about the garment industry within the work and the process of doing the work itself was significant. Because something had happened very early on when I showed that I work doc on struggled for democracy you know the there's a wedding pictures and there's a flood pitches and everyone turns it down. There was a magazine that published a review. You might get out of that work. Interestingly the owner of the magazine was the wife of the minister. I thought what's going on. Here this is this this minister critiquing and whatever his wife does and it was a beautiful review. But then you take a step back and you find in the review. They talk about the artistry by work. DOC The compositions subtlety the strength of my blackened mind photography completely obliterating the political hunter. They're going to an art show. We'll exactly exactly and this is the trap that B. Find Ourselves in you can be your Nice. Little artists will give you some funding will give you a nice gallery. Will you'll have a great show. Let's leave the politics out of it. And I decided I would ensure that my politics could not be separated from art and in this final work. Queer eye produce the work in a manner where the fire that burned. Those villages is used to burn those Straw mats. The carbon a not straw-mat is my pixel an entire process also involves the garment industry in older set of things. So when you look at that image in China understand that image you take all of that political background in you know. As we mentioned earlier you spent a couple of months in jail last year. And it's almost a almost a year to the day since your release I guess this is kind of a big question that I'll break down into a couple of things how was it to be in some sense. The focus of the news the story of the News as opposed to somebody covering the news How did that work for you And how was it to not be able able to document with a camera in the time that you were in jail or even the time afterwards. I'm assuming took a little bit to get your gear back somehow or get it new gear and then obviously maybe a year later any any kind of stop the second question. I When I was a student you you had money problems? Have Money Problems There's were analog days yet to buy me a protest film it was expensive cameras expensive today but at that time the actual actual film itself So I used to go round taking pictures without film in my camera. I would take pictures all day. I've done that and of course you went as you need to. uh-huh gymnast needs to train himself or herself. A musician need to do the vocals do you you practice the cords. This is part of the gymnastics photography needs to do you look at images you breathe images. Look Imagine the images that you've missed out and all those side would go around all day taking pictures without single film. Now that when I began my work I did these stories on the missing on the disappeared. Now photography's very good at rendering. What is in front of the visual? It's not as good at photographing the missing the invisible It's not a natural medium for photographing what is absent. But it can be done and I. I was doing that for some time. While it's jail. The camera itself was missing so then I had to find a way of. How do I tell the story when it's not there itself? The two things I did the I had nothing and to do with me. I managed to convince Not I own my own together. With other prisoners we may able to convince the warden's to allow paint brushes and paint and the prisoners painted murals. Eighty five huge murals. It's like a museum inside the jail it's dramatic But I began to use words. I I mean I do right by. I interviewed extensively while I was there. I made copious notes but when I came out I started working with my niece. Sophia Kareem as an architect to producing three D models off Off The the Jalen of the situations I've been in based on my memory. We decided not to do it from architectural drawings Google maps but use my memory which is a more focus On that that Amorphous Nature I felt was part of it because this these two artists talking to one another models are very exacting. I was looking at them and I'm surprised to hear you. It's from your memory. It looks like they were taken from actual line drawings of the plans. That are very interesting. Things in there. For instance there are the sparrows I used to feed and that was what I had. The sparrows were free. They had flight. They were outside And I I started feeding them and we didn't have anything there so fellow prisoners smuggled in cardboard boxes which I cut up to make a little platform for them and I would save a little a bit of my breakfast for the sparrows and they come in and fleet inside. I took down the mosquito net from my window to allow them in. I I was preventive. PUT UP WITH MOSQUITO BITES. I have my sparrow friend so there are those little details but all of that is there and there is for instance another element which is me collecting flies because my partner would come every day other people would come really. It's the people outside who suffered a lot more than I did. I think but they would bring me things. I had nothing to give back side would collect flowers in the morning and give them those flowers. That was my gift back. That is also part of the show. Wonderful I didn't answer the other bit. No I did. Yeah I think you and I mean well maybe just this this idea of the media looking back at you as opposed to around July. And I've been doing this for a very very long time. So over. The years is Built bug eyed students across the globe. public speaker I write. I take pictures. I work at many levels and part of that I think resulted in in this very widely orchestrated very powerful movement I thought it was people. Power is fantastic. You know show of People Power but in terms of having the spotlight on me. It's true that spotlight was on me. But I look at everything I do as part of my social activism a a now that the spotlight was in me I decided I would use that spotlight and I my being here. Today is part of that because what I'm also talking talking about is not me as such but what I represent and I think through this today. You know your viewers out there. We'll know about what is happening in Bangladesh and for me one of the questions to ask it not merely what my Bangladeshi government is doing but what international governments during the fact that you sell weapons to my government the fact that you sell surveillance equipment to my government on not despite bite the rhetoric of democracy and freedom. Most foreign governments have far more interested in working with applying dictator than a messy. Democracy is something thing I want to remind the average citizens and I believe the onus is upon you to ask those hard questions to your government to ensure that your tax money isn't used the wrong way good points I will say on that exact note one of the things that I worked very hard to do in the book especially in these essays as by me which are trying to describe what is the contemporary landscape of journalism but also What are some of the critical questions we as viewers should be asking asking of images? It is one of my hopes that someone who reads the book will then be able to look at a photograph and not just say. I'm seeing suffering in Yemen or I'm seeing suffering in whatever location. It is where the picture was taken but will then ask the question. Chen of and what role do I play in this home connected to the yeah exactly Maybe just to take a little different direction What camera do you use with your favorite Lens? What what what do you find important about The gear use anything. I use the camera have with me. Okay all right phone. These phone wasn't in fact within the show. You had an iphone. Yes I I use it quite a lot. I use it extensively in fact a lot of the reporting I was doing. I was doing with my iphones at that time the reporting for which I went to jail wis because of my iphone photography That was for a practical reason. You know we it meant I could work at a level which perhaps would be less under the great more under the radar got phone. Yeah But of course I still got caught out Decrepit got smashed. I got beaten up and I continue. She needs to work what the police have today on my iphones and my macbook pro. They didn't know you get another one. I Guess I uh-huh you've been doing this for forty years. Can you point anything concrete. That's come as positive that you'd say okay. I know that my work made aide. This happened made this positive change. Can you point to anything in particular. Hala Corey referred to something very tiny. I left home in seventeen seventeen. I came back when I was twenty nine. I didn't really know my parents as adults and I wanted to know them. These were very special people but I knew it was going to be very difficult. I'd lived a very independent life and here I was twenty nine year old living at home. You know there's gotTa that'd be problem so there were problems but one of the things I hadn't anticipated was in middle class homes in Bangladesh. You have home help. NOPE and there was a young boy. Called Meson who used to clean the rooms babies to watch television And we would sit there and and what television. He would sit outside the room to television through the door. Not Very far away but politically socially miles apart. One of things we've done is we've used our calendar for activism as well whereas calendars before we used had. I used to have pretty pictures. Flowers landscape pretty women. We decided to use social documentary as the content of calendar. An an I in in the calendar I think it was in one thousand nine hundred. Eighty eight published a picture of musone watching TV. I give a copy to Meson. I gave a couple of my mother over the next day. Meson satisfied that trump to TV with us a very tiny think perhaps but very succinct and may may very tough and it was your parents that do you think that it was and this is maybe a broader question than this situation but was there the awareness. It just wasn't there until the photo was shown to them or the photo itself. Force them to kind of re to say you know what I I have to. I have to address this. Does it fish. No it's a motor. I mean we are surrounded each one of us have so many prejudices and biases which we are not aware of overlooked only when we confronted by it and here here was a a very liberated educated Progressive Woman Who's being confronted by WHO own son About what was happening thing in her home every day and this is going to lead me to. I guess maybe our last questions with you spoke of people who are disappeared or people came back to Bangladesh but then they lost their voice voice You are middle class man. Who Studied Chemistry? What why do you still have your voice? Why are you able to go back? Time meantime again and speak and create institutions. That will continue to speak. I think firstly I'm not alone I mean I am physically here talking. But there risk a huge group of people around me and it's a collective struggle one of the things I began to. It was a conscious decision to make as a photographer I got into photography because I wanted social change and I had to think of how best that social change might be affected. Certainly through photography and writing was one one but I felt if you've got to fight a war you need warriors and you need to build warriors so I the agency was a platform on which Sean through which we could work. I set up the school so they were now. There are so many other young bright photography's from Manga. They doing work. Then I set up the festival itself and while I'm not a politician I am engaged in politics and I. I have two areas of interest in three areas of intervention media education and culture and I ensure that with that tripod I exert pressure sure upon the political spacesuit politicians cannot get away what they used to getting away with and in terms of having the voice I think it is a collective voice yes and sure this is a phenomenal movement. You know they were over a dozen Nobel laureates world celebrities campaigning for me but there were people people on the ground and people in Bangladesh taking uterus to be doing it and I don't think this is my voice. I think it is our voice. I'm just happy that I'm able to carry it. Okay then a wrap of a fascinating show if I may say so myself and speaking shows we'd like to remind everybody that Shadow allom truth to power will be on exhibit at the Rubin Museum of Art. That's here in New York City through May fourth twenty twenty. The museum is located at one fifty West Seventeenth Street which is just down the street. From one of the original locations of being h photo Daulat listeners would like to catch up on more of your work which websites instagram. Where could they go to see more of your work? Dot Com three three dot net. That's my own site in the agency but I also run a blog shade. The News Dot Com So those would be good but there is the show coming up at the Vienna Next month in the later this month in thirteen thirty in London. And we'll have all of this information in our show notes And as a book should be buying looking at you should now have arrived at the Rubin on Steidl which is fabulous publisher of books. Folks I mean Hera came to a festival in March. He said I wanted to your book. I said you know I've got a show at Rubin in November Says Keeping The manuscript is August. I'll give you a book. And he did it was I just came from going in and the work incredibly hard all shifts weekends and I've just been told that the book has physically arrived. It's called the tide will turn it's edited by. Vj Shot but it also has a beautiful letter by the great writer around the Roy. Okay all right Lauren. Your new book is conversations on conflict. The target fee and it's available now right. Yes it's been out since early October. Okay and I was just flipping through the early and it's it's a powerful book that I definitely want to go back and Revisit Fisher. Thank you really really good and if people want to catch up on more of what you're up to can they go to Lauren. Walsh DOT COM easy. Okay and again all this will be our show notes as well Lauren. Welcome back against against always great having you as a guest here Shell pleasure honor having you here in our studio It was a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much this you again. Some type LIMP. Are you not a regular subscribe to our show. If not all you have to do is head. On over to apple podcast Google podcast stitcher overcast or spotify and sign up. It's absolutely free. Tell Them L.. Sent you In the meantime My name is Alan Whites and on behalf of Jason and John Fine. Thank you so much tuning into today