9 Episode results for "Michael Kimmel"

Monocle Reads: Isabel Costello

Monocle 24: Meet the Writers

18:29 min | Last month

Monocle Reads: Isabel Costello

"Hello this is monica. Reads i- georgina godwin. And today my guest is isabel. Kasolo a british writer with a lifelong love of france having been nominated for numerous awards for short fiction writing. She released her first novel. Paris monaco more in two thousand sixteen her latest book sent follows. The females conflicting desires an intimate relationships isabelle. Welcome to monaco read. I wonder if you could start by telling us a little bit about yourself because you've worked in marketing and calms your book blogger. An interviewer of authors an aromatherapist. As well as a writer. How would you describe that extremely interesting. Portfolio career well. It's funny actually. George hearing you really all know realize that i had. I've had a portfolio career since before that became a thing really. It's been incredibly interesting and exciting and varied and in amongst all that. I took a lot of time off to raise my two sons who had grown up. Now everything i've done has contributed in some way. Obviously to who i am today and in particular is say that you know i mean. It's a kind of a frisbee that we have in the writing community that nothing is ever wasted. But i think not stephanie. True of life in general. And there's nothing about my life today that hasn't manifested itself in some shape or form. Yeah nora ephron everything is copy. Yeah she's right about that. Yeah listen you're also a francophile. Tell us about your relationship with franz. Well you're right. i'm a francophile. It's almost putting it to mildly. My mother was a french teacher and might go. Mother is french and two daughters. All either side of me in age and my oldest and lifelong friends and i had the good fortune to go to france. Most some of my childhood again before that was really a thing. My parents were not well off a tool so we were traveling on a shoestring campaign. But i go to just have a lot of exposure to france. The french language growing up. And i went on to study modern languages at uni. And it's it's something. I'm calm just simply would not be the same person without that too late my life and do you think that that love of france also influenced your desire to train as an aromatherapist. I wouldn't say so specifically what what led to found was me having this very acute sense of smell and it seemed to really kick him when i was expecting my first son. Who's now twenty three and of course. That's not unusual for pregnant women but it didn't seem to subside. The way usually does. And i'm not somebody who tends to go for things with all guns blazing so instead of just thinking. Oh that's nice. I decided to train as an aromatherapist at the toronto institute which is an amazing placed. Study and i was always more interested in the creative side. Then this sort of bodywork side that really fascinated me. So i think that definitely sort of laid the ground worth my subsequent passion for perfumery. I wonder how one starts putting together an attractive smell. I mean how do you layer it. How do you design it. What are you looking for when you're trying to come up with something. That appeals well. It ties in very nicely with with the process of the creative process of writing actually because sent his story. I don't just mean my book without name so the idea would be to kind of Talk to the person it's four if we're talking bespoke sent and it's kind of layering not only of the chemical substances which make up the the perfume but of memory association desires places because Perfume is very transporting as many of us have kind of found during the pandemic. It's sort of easy way to be somewhere else. It's an unbelievably complex process. And i think that's one of the reasons. The perfumery industry is quite sort of Shrouded in mystique and secrecy because obviously perfumes. Don't go around sharing that miss a bit like coca cola. Nobody's ever going to know the exact formula for for any of these things. I actually created my own bespoke fine fragrance some in the process of doing my research for this book. I'm what does it smell like well. It's it's name paranormal. After my first novel and i was kind of channeling that novel almost more than my own self when i created it because it's a different style too i normally go for. It's very sort of sexy and romantic. Scott term. rose narrowly some interesting synthetics. Because that's one of the things that was very interesting to me. Coming from the roma therapy background is to realize just how enormously important synthetics in modern femara and it's got some really lovely deeper notes like sandalwood which is a favorite of mine and a letter which is a good example of a synthetic because oversee. You know trying to get from leather. Wouldn't be much fun. You talk about sent being being very layered and your book sent also is very lead. It's very nuanced and well. It's it's really. It's really a sort of coming of age story. I wondered if you could expand on that. And just just tell us a little bit more about the novel the first person narrator centers the forty six year old michael kimmel teen whose having to face up to the almost inevitable end of her marriage long marriage to at well. He's a very successful businessman. And the trip for this Not uncommon is the lost child leaving home. And so she's in a state of you know kind of big turbulence already. And that's when her ex girlfriend from many many years before down in the south of france where she comes from just pops back in her life completely unexpectedly so i wanted to kind of really tap into with this novel was the this time of immense. You know turbulence and change that women do go through in the middle decades of our lives which despite the kind of Fat the biggest buyers meters of fiction all women over forty eight doesn't get to represented in fiction as often as i think should not and also was on a bit of a personal mission to kind of counter some of the stereotypes about you know quotation marks older the women many of which i simply don't recognize that was way more to it. I mean shakespeare competitive old age to a second childhood. And i think a lot of us find a midlife as women a bit like a sort of second adolescence. Not just hormonally but also in terms of the all. These changes that are going on. I mean in two thousand seventeen. Which is the year before. I sort of set to work on this book. I met up with several friends quite a few really people that i don't see more than once or twice a year. It was like every woman. I sat down to lunch or drink with was was in. The midst of a real crisis. Wouldn't be too strong a word really quite a few of them were guessing counseling. Wish they could. You know because there's so many issues that the crowd in you know with elderly parents. Children career Men pools marriage issues relationships. I should say and it's it's the law you know. And and therefore it's a awfully says mileage in totally and it's really only recently we've seen more and more people writing about menopause. This used to be pretty much tabu subjects. Yes right in just a piece last week. Interestingly in response to vena mccall's documentary. Which i thought was really excellent. I mean we do have to break down. Some of these bs and thought requires people to to be willing to speak out about it. Which is you know. It's not an easy task. A ravine in kind of quite personal stuff about yourself. I mean i was willing to. Because i think it's i think important at i mean since i wrote my first book which is also quite Intimate in its tone and themes. I've started have a completely different kind of conversation with the women and i think that people realize that i'm somebody that they can talk to. Who's not going to. I mean when you've written a novel about an affair with a man who seventeen years younger you know. It's fairly clear that you don't have the very censorious fees about stuff like that. And i think that some a lot of unnecessary loneliness and suffering comes from not being up to talk about all this stuff wishes. Also i think quite a british thing. I'm no though. I am british. The french side of my life has been so kind of almost dominant. Really that i think issues like sex sexuality that kind of thing Half a sort of strange almost forbidden or about them in anglophone culture which is not the case. I mean i think this is actually just part of life and it's much more healthy if we can just try and see that way. We're all of some kind of enormous. You know one mentionable elephant in the room. One of the themes of the novel is is choice. Really the choices that we make in the past for instance coming back to to affect our lives. Now yes one of my big interests as a writer on the person i guess is a you know what contributes to who we are. Now i mean. I've spent a lot of my own life kind of being fascinated by the idea of how it would feel to be someone else and parts of our from questions like. Can we ever really move forward from things that have happened in the post an all the things which contribute to us being who we are and finding yourself and finding your paul will that kind of thing is often presented as something which is for young people. But i see it as more of a kind of ongoing process because life throws curve booze and it's it is very fascinating to me. You know all the different things that make us the contribute to the way we change us people and do you think that age makes those choices easier to make. Yes no i mean with age. You have a track record. You may well have a complicated life setup or just a very established life setup. So i mean i think most people would say that they know themselves as they get older and something which seems to be a common theme amongst women as we get into malaysia and beyond that we are more forthright about what we want from life and in particular what we are not prepared to put up with. I'm encouraged to see the generation below me of women being a lot more assertive and not tolerating some of the stuff that maybe women. If my age did in the past i mean. I don't have any daughters. I have two sons. But i mean i when i see when i see young women taking stand on this stuff. That pleases me. Absolutely i wanted to talk a little bit about sexuality than an and how it changed speaking as you do to too many women in in my age bracket one thing i'm struck by and this of course is a theme in in your novel is a what i'm going to call late onset lesbianism but i'm also like you looking back at a generations. That are coming up now and seeing that they are so much more at ease with their sexuality and so i wonder if older women now becoming more fluid is something that they would have done anyway or if this is related. I'm very fascinated by all of this as i'm sure you've gathered. I think that human sexuality is house little ways being incredibly complicated. I mean why would it not be when every other aspect of human experiences. I'm reading of a compendium of queer writing through the ages at the moment literally like two and a half thousand years and it's it's quite amusing and fun because you know it's very clear all these all these complicated nuances of Sex gender etc desire have absolutely assisted as long as there have been people walking the earth. I personally think it's a great thing but some attitudes to this subject all loosening up and Yes i've read tons. I mean there's so much. Excellent non-fictional miss subject. And i've read a lot of it if i had time. I'm sure i would much more and sexual fluidity does appear to be more common in women and particularly as as we age and That is definitely something you know. I mean i've noticed that in myself. And also this. I suppose i mean you talk about a fifty or fifty plus knowing what we don't want and i suppose there's a danger of people becoming quite dogmatic but what happens in this book. I suppose is that russia. Who is the person that comes. Back is algierian so there are cultural differences their class differences. And this is an example. I suppose of of an older woman really allowing her mind to be opened up. Yes i would agree with that. I mean when clementina. Russia meets the age of twenty down in provence. That it's because they discover to their horror that that both involved with say man. I'm for awhile things kind of joke alone between the three of them and then he gets he gets pushed to the side. But it's not just is very emotional and sexual between clementine and russia. But it's more than that so you know. They are from different worlds and even though they they paul in very difficult circumstances and haven't seen each other for twenty five years that experiences. Some kind of seared into clementino on every level and clementine also has a gay son basketball. Who's just left us. Nineteen so you know. She's aware of you. Know i mean that kind of like i suppose stirs up some of her own issues from the past. I mean she's somebody who's worked very hard at kind of suppressing her true nature. I guess you could say. Because i mean does the line at the coast to the beginning of the book where she said. I'd i'd seem where love lead. My never wants to go there again so she. She deliberately marries. She knowingly marries the man that she doesn't love that will mr off jester self protection. And i mean you you. You describe clementine describes marriages this show. Were putting on the perfect exterior the very messy interior. Yes well. I think that's often the way i mean. I do personally believe that what we see of each other is visible. Exterior is just the tip of the iceberg. And i think that's probably one of the reasons i write. Certainly one of the reasons. I read because fiction. Is the autistic meeting. That really takes us deep into the consciousness of another person in a way that safe film and stage count in quite the same wife. Role that power yes you know. The vulnerability and human connection is something which interests me a lot. Because you don't really get one without the other and something. I've noticed since i started writing about this kind of thing is that i have become a lot less guarded emotionally in my own right and i'm not saying i haven't ever for a goal. She would kept quiet about a particular thing but the gifts spruyt may have far. Outweigh eat minor embarrassment. Or whatever and i think that that's really reflected in these times that we live in. I mean we've all had such a very weird last couple of eighteen months old. So whatever it's been where motion connection and vulnerability of really comes to the fore. Yes absolutely it's been very Revealing a for matters most to us. And i think a lot of people have been really surprised and i have found incredibly difficult not being able to see my friends especially my women friends and i. I realized that i had long sought of moving to franz which various reasons. I'm not sure will ever happen in a permanent sense that some now con realize. I actually couldn't be away from my friends. A neat them too much absolutely is about thank you so much. I think you've given us this. This glorious gift in the you transport us to france us to to think about our vulnerability and you give us a cracking good story to thank you. So much sent by isabel. Castillo is published by mas. Well press you've been listening to monica. Reads thanks to my producer nor a whole on research. Charlie film court. I'm georgina godwin. Thank you for listening.

france georgina godwin Kasolo monaco toronto institute Scott term michael kimmel nora ephron vena mccall isabelle isabel franz monica stephanie coca cola Paris George shakespeare clementina
Ep - 144 - DEBRA NEWELL FROM DIRTY JOHN

Reality Life with Kate Casey

1:14:30 hr | 2 years ago

Ep - 144 - DEBRA NEWELL FROM DIRTY JOHN

"This episode of reality. Life is brought to you in part by milk. Keep listening to discover how milk adds more to your day. Now, here's the show. Amazing cake. JC welcome back to another episode of reality life with key. Keep this week's episode is really special. There are three parts to this episode. The first part is an interview with Deborah Newell. And then the name's familiar to you, it's because in two thousand fourteen she fell for a man that she met online on an over-fifties single site. The romance turned into a nightmare documented in the six part podcast series, dirty John and most recently into a TV series of the same name on Bravo. Her ex John Mian attacked her daughter Tara in the parking lot of her apartment building two years ago. He stabbed her with a knife as he tried to force her into the trunk of his car, but she fought back and the altercation left him dead and put an end to a two year saga. I was really lucky to secure interview with Deborah. She asked me to do the interview with famed criminal behavior. Analyst Laura Richards, formerly of the new Scotland Yard because it was really important to her that we discuss coercive control, and she hoped that our experience can help other victims now as you will hear she is very soft spoken, and it takes some time to open up. I ask you to remember that this is all still pretty fresh to her this just happened two years ago. And she's as she explains she's really still trying to heal from the trauma. The second part of the episode is with my childhood friend, Michael Kimmel, who I asked to watch show on MTV called Lindsay Lohan beach club. And then the third part of the episode is with Steve Tate father of six from Utah. He reviews the season premiere of the bachelor a show, which he loves now have you ever met somebody? And you can't explain the connection that you have between you, well, that's kind of what happened with Steve. And there's kind of an inch. Interesting story behind it that we both tell in the beginning and the end of his segment, so please sit back and enjoy this episode. Happy new year ready for some big changes this year ring in the new year with a new hair care routine. Madison Reed is hair-color reinvented. Gorgeous salon-quality color delivered to your door for less than are ready for this less than twenty five dollars. I want you to think about all the money that you spend it every salon appointment that you had last year. Remember, it's two thousand nineteen now you don't have to choose between outdated box color or the time inexpensive, a salon crafted in Italy, by master colorist, Madison Reed is professional hair-color. You can easily do at home multi tonal ammonia free with ingredients. You can feel really good about find your perfect shade. Get an expert color consultation or take the color quiz at Madison dash re dot com. Reality life who Casey listeners get ten percent off plus free shipping on their first caller kit with code reality. That's code reality. Dirty. John is based on the life of John Mehan, a con artist and associated path from the podcast is hosted by Christopher offered in created by wondering and Los Angeles Times, it is a true crime story, and the journalist offered I heard of me, and when he learned that the police were investigating a possible murder in Newport Beach and upon investigating. He discovered a bizarre web of deceit and abuse. The main focus of the story is man's relationship with businesswoman. Debra Newell, whom he met Vienna. Internet dating site as well as her immediate and extended family me and himself was killed by Newell's youngest daughter Tara who acted in self defense when he tried to kill her on the rooftop parking lot of her apartment building on August tenth of twenty sixteen. I am very pleased to tell you that my featured guest this week our Deborah Newell played by Connie Britton in the acclaimed Bravo series, dirty, John and Laura Richards, a renowned criminal behavior psychologist. She has spent a decade looking at violent crime. Times new Scotland Yard she focuses on domestic violence, stalking sexual violence and risk assessment. She also founded Paladin, the world's first service for national stocking, advocacy and has helped draft domestic violence lawn England, she is also co host of another spectacular wondering podcast, and as you know, we're all in the wonder family, the podcast and the TV series has become a sensation. John was a conman. And Deborah was his prey, and this relationship was an example of emotional abuse, a form of domestic violence that many many women struggle to escape I suspect that part of the reason they're story is so compelling is because emotional abuse touches most people's lives while you may not personally have been a victim chances. Are you know, someone within two degrees of separation who was I I'd like to say, welcome to the show, Debra Mora? Hallway? Thank you for having us phone can lure can you? Kind of give us some perspective on abuse rates. Well, I mean controlled recently became a crime in England and well seven Scotland now in island, and so obviously one you identify something you make a crime, you can install to collect statistics on it. So it's difficult to may the expenses from the statistics, Elaine, of course, in America's most a crime yet. But Debra nyah heightened to change that. But it's very prevalent. And you know, she said probably within a few degrees separation. You'll find somebody who's experienced it across their life. Cool. So they might not cool it cost control. I'm not always the challenge that even now look at people tell stories about control cases, but they don't mention that time. And then for that for people just saying at the office someone who did some kind of bad things, but it was like a logical. It wasn't physical Dan for it wasn't so bad off to rule but abuse, you know, might spirit the women that I work with David lost two decades. They would tell me that the breezes fade and the bones. Will meant the psychological terrorism that they experience the thing that stays with them forever and not the challenge to identify unin. So the movie can talk about what control is needed. It sister teaching positive behavior that it's used by individuals, and it's primarily men who tried to exploit or dominate women and create K dependency to ensure onto domination. So they entrapped them. I mean, we'll might edge them out that life. So that they don't have freedom to choose won't. They do they see what they were the other thing about that Sean can say be used by pack traits them. And so this song's many people. So it's something that there are many behaviors is not just one and Deborah's case really does exemplify that and he used love boming, which is the the initial early days of the relationship when he did everything, right? He understood every Mead of Deborah's. And then he matched. He was too good to be true which experience when someone's too good to be true. That's exactly right. It's not a true. And that's what you have to question the behavior. So it can be difficult to spot initially and gas lighting form as caustic control, the the sort of reality distortion, where they might make you think you've lost your mind. You question you'll reality and they project so if they having an affair, and they're doing bad things, they tell you. That's what you're doing. And they accuse you, and that's all you're on the back foot constantly. So it's really a thought KOMO to cool game. And it can be very dangerous than its way. Women go Saudi more often than not tend to be murdered. So tell us a little bit. What we've learned about John Mehan? Well, Joe million-. I mean, certainly Deborah got to know him quite well, and so different sites to him in the early stages. Charm offensive when he's campaign with to make us in love with him on the same with many other women who stayed confused subsequent vein. So he's trade crawl is really understanding what a woman wants it. And then he would fulfil every one of those needs and wants and desires and Johm dot particularly. Well, he was to try to isolate debt grown thought the other women that he had relationships with. So that he could control on the thing with those who wants to, you know, questionably control is that they won't the isolation. So they have dot passing who to themselves and Johm through all Jim I own I'll Pocock through crime profile. We did an indirect pass novelty assessment. And then five go much deeper into Joan's background. I could psychological topsy where you know about someone's background. How they were broke out. You know, he we believe warfare psychopath that will now he was someone who had very empathy and fact. Probably no entity tool may remorse, and I wouldn't take any responsibility. He's action very manipulative very dangerous and he lived a parasitic lifestyle. He was always trying to live off the P crew, and it was very sexually promiscuous. So there was a little insensitive to twenty traits by coffee. He takes pretty much every bulk, and, you know, very dangerous as an individual, but savvy many professionals just didn't understand how dangerous he was. The show talks a little bit about his childhood. What do we know about it? It's seems to portray his own father as a con man as well probably a sociopath. How much of that is true? What do we know about his? His earlier life that can contribute to his behaviors. Right. A family member told up for merits to he was and that's where I always thought they knew him the best. And I mean, he had an if not excusing his who he went home to be. But it's understanding how he came to be passed them. And he's fought it was always teaching him. How the game on rip off, you know, whether it's a restaurant or whether it's insurance he was always been positively reinforced. That's how you get by in the world. And that's what you should do. And he's got she used him to do many scams. I mean, he just took it to the next level, and he took it to the next level because he realized actually he preyed on women on sesame women, then it's a much easier ruse in many ways, but you know, there was publi- and his background. There was abuse. That was you know, among his family. There were some things that when phone historically if he believes his accounts where he was a victim. And he's motherless his father because the domestic spent gentleman blames the mother, and so too often we do see that the the blame gets caught on the woman another individual who actually the father was having an affair. He was abusive and say she left him. But God who say tools that having you know, that he had relationships with the mafia. I mean, he was called to the mall and Joe Medusa use that tactic later on. So, you know, the young Joe meet and love from very early age. Unfortunately that to to scheme and scam and to take things from people and to dominate obe- dominated on always have the opera hand in the control. And that was how he lived his life and anyone who went against him. He would school. She us. You know, he would go off to the accusers. Go off to anybody. And that's why he was a a risk gonna change too many women who say to Moore and for some prep. Professionals than anybody else. He did to challenge if he saw his authority very dangerous manipulatives individual. He probably his dumb thaw more than what we have a really understand. No about did did you ever find? Or did anyone ever find a real correlation or connection between John and organized crime? Well, no, that's thirty organized crime. I mean, he gone to need, you know, Putin also drunks out post tools, and he understood that that side of things have to exploit I think sunny on some very serious questions to off about what happened to his brother because he was supplying drugs to to donny's brother and giving instructions on how to use it. And he's brought the guy. Now coroner's inquest said the they couldn't make that suggestion. But actually, you know, when you cook the emails and the material I think that would be a good case to make the the follow the all say died as was portrayed in in the Broadway show. Also, Jimmy him was left alone with him. So I think in terms of how many people did suffer pines, how many people, you know, all victims of jomie, John. I think it would be in the hundreds. Of course, women did come forward. I mean, the Debbie being say, great and courageous and cutting her story and. Many many women continued to come forward by myself, Deborah, and I think so many soc aims that they would pay Canadian. I'm not saying and blaming judgment is the thing that we need to change because it's actually leave pub traces behavior that we should really be looking at all questions about how they get away with these things settled on him. Why we don't challenge that behavior and hold them to account and how many times was he married just once or twice including Deborah two times. Yeah. Two times hand myself and has two daughters. Two daughters. Well known about and they may be others. I would miss apprised me if there while other women, so you know, these three children the known about from near lung from another and then the one of the nice things about the Bravo store. Bravo series is sort of explorers Depres childhood and a lot of people had asked me questions about if you could just sort of piece together your earlier life. So we kind of get a sense on how someone like John would prey and. Laura. This is a great question for you to is are there certain women or victims that someone like John pray look for prey on? Right. I mean, the update fast men that can give it a bit more of a background to channel two. I mean, Saudi Johm even did have a particular price on of a female that he went on. And you know, I think he's scanning through much still calm, and it would be different online dating sites. You know, later on it was much more about women who are attractive, but say who I'll find unsually went off an independent, and you know, he's power fix. The point of being a psychopath is one of the traits is the piracy life thaw. They attached to someone and showing drain them for everything. It's no just financial. So. Yeah. For meet him. He thought he had it but taking a victim pie. And I think the, you know, when we understand how pe- would come Vinson's vulnerabilities means many things it's not just about someone being vulnerable because they've been a previous victim of something. We will vote over when we look for long, and he would come across. On the first day thing silent tenses, and so into that passion, and it's almost like an option divvy up when someone's really into you, and they are tentative in that present may listen to everything you say for Jomo doing not because he was genuinely interested in wants to pooling luck. He was doing it to be able to use that information a late today to get him. What he wanted, you know? That's why when we look for love the sunny, some some tips and advice, but that people can up on foot come back for them. But, you know, Deborah in essence didn't do anything wrong other than she was looking for love light, many of us do online, and unfortunately, she went under the gaze of a nonspecific funk upon I know, but it's a fair question to ask is that. Debra had been married before she was a single woman, I know many people in the same age group. And sometimes we're we were we overlook things because we really want to have a companion and he clearly in the series, just as you mentioned used information against her like her brother in law killed her sister. Deborah, did you find that he was constantly like sort of peeling back layers of your life trying to find information use against you like your relationship with your father or your brother in law. Did he do that? Because I definitely have known like my own mom, married a sociopath. So that was something that my stepfather would do to my mom. He didn't use my dad because I have nothing but raping say about my dad, but he did you anything? About my past that he could turn around and. Yeah. And my children. Yes. But for the most part, I had a great childhood. I had a wonderful bad. So if anything I I I thought that in we're all great. And then you met him a two thousand fourteen you had a really quick sort of romance. You're so as to month romance, and then a wedding that you'd kept private from your kids when they can you give us a little bit more information about the timeline of when your kids kinda spoke up and they hired an investigator. And then when you started to realize what was what was happening. Well, there are little things along the way that I should have paid attention to. But I was falling in love and. So I did not pay attention to them. But the one thing that really stood out was I felt like why are you not trying to get to know my kids and that bothered me because I just wanted one big happy family, and then the investigation actually started. I think the beginning of the year, the foaming dear, but the investigated the PI had gone to China. So they think if the information right away. And everything happens about the same timing which was in March where they gave me the paper showed every new to me John had a bowel -struction along with. He was coming back surgery a couple of days later, so he ended up in the hospital for twenty three days. Why while I was able to look at a lot of the evidence or a lot of things about John of the sort of women of a certain age dating. I genuinely think that whenever we go looking for law online. No matter what age you, all you give chef all more information than you would denominate if you meant it on rely just the ball unfortunate. They're all predecessors on on my which they're all. And I hate from hundreds, you know, different victims on different online dating sites and up. You know, you four to me, you know, all being stalled. So this quest control. What is being sexual abuse nowadays predators fishing, those pool? And I think whenever we all, you know, into somebody we sometimes brush over the thing that doesn't fit with all what we wanted to see in his we can be going things. And I think that's part of human nature, which is why for me know, my vice of aging law, if you will say thing to tasting snowing and do your teeth diligence and check on what's being said, you know, and take your time to who you really invites in your life. You do that. When you buy a house, or when you make any big investment, and there's no bigger investment than who gave you a hawks in. You know, so you doing the checks and always trust in your instinct when something goes and looks Rome, they know what your instincts telling you and God had a very good instinct right from the start when he started bouncing on her bag, you know, date one that something was all but women in particular, we rationalize we'd get around the apologize. He gave opposable reason. He said, he I set, you know, he say sage. Her concern. And I've stayed away faith to people when someone shows you who they all the first time trusted. Well, there was a short wreck reconciliation, and I think that happens a lot of relationships to where they might say something that convinces you that you're as you mentioned like when someone gaslight you that you're the one that's crazy. Then you then you came to a point where you went into hiding so talk to me about that transition about when you the reconciliation, and then how you finally. Really cut the cord. Okay. Well, when he ended up in the hospital it was for twenty three days. I was looking through all the evidence. And one thing I did go visit him in the hospital. You my soft side. And being that I was married to him. I felt that I at least need to talk to him thanks to pay. But I put him in a hotel room. I did not stay with him in that hotel room. So that he could mend, but he shared with me that he wanted to show me all the evidence that he was the victim. And that if I listened to him he could prove everything and prove it to my children. So he had hired a lawyer. And we went to the office. And the lawyer said I wanna prove to you that John is innocent. He was brained. And so I was really into listened to John because again being married to him. And I was in love with them. I needed to hear jerem out when I wasn't getting the answers. He did eventually move back in with me when I was getting the answers, I started admit investigating myself during this timeframe I hired a private investigator. I hired forensic psychiatrist. I had to lawyers, and I really tried to get to know who I was dealing with because you just don't walk away. So it took time to do everything that I needed to do from. I had to fake it for quite some time. But I was changing counts. I was changing password. I was moving money. I was I had a nother phone. I in other words, I did. Everything I could just set myself up to where I could go into hiding knowing who this man was and that's what the golfing thing was really stoned because to dangerous time when someone tries to separate from an abuse up until just abuse request would be controlling psychopath. So the safety planning that w did not she was a with extensive hiring t- and making sure that she gets a paid herself in the right way. Which is a vice I would have given in this situation. And people forget the that's really what cats are safe enough. Why he went off to you know, the dourson? So some six women are still to mud pay separation. And it really is the most dangerous time majority of cases, in fact, most door to have control and store king. And that's why cool the much in mission that we really have an opportunity to try and raise it's an educated people because. Deb said econ just walk out the door with somebody who is not controlling like this so her instincts again was right on that. And that's why this case and very very differently from from what it could have been one of the things that I found so frustrating was in the story that you came to the police and told them what was going on. He they were he was essentially already stocking. And there wasn't much they could do. So there you're stuck you and your children. Waiting. I wasn't. So can you talk to me a little bit about that experience? Well, I went to four different PlayStation. I did not get anyone to listen to my story. One of them made me look like, I was an idiot. Basically, go home you guys go in through the board. And I said at that station four or five hours waiting to hopefully, tell some of my story, why was in hiding I also went up to a couple of policemen. Can you help me and nobody helped me, and then I went to Ghana beach plea. They did talk to me. But nothing was done. I went to court beach. Please again, talk to them nappy was done. And in the end, I went to hinder simply so I wasn't having. Help at all from any of the lease out there. About pops unconscionable to me that professional when it full maneuvering force protection when women are offering to help. And when they get spread and then not being believed in that being dismissed in the dangerous dangerous situations. And then ironically, it Debra being blamed why didn't you do anything? Well, she tried. She reached out through the right Hebrew. And actually law enforcement knew that this man was a danger. There was he had record record off the record felony stalking threats and made threats Taku to learn enforcement professionals. He was actually frightened of him. The why the Phnom bells went ringing when Deborah was going in Jacqueline. We're going into a pool. Joe Mehan is very very concerning. And that's why I became door enforcement training them. I spend a lotta time in classroom training them. On course, control and stalking today. Understand the dangerous signs, and they don't just dismiss fix in the not leave them. So, of course, we know that Tara. Was incredibly brave thought back then not a the apartment complex. I wanted to know number one like how was her health? Did she have any lasting health complications because of that attack? Sheen had PTSD and it still gets triggered. Yeah. Yeah. We have. We did send her away too often for about six months and get someone that actually dealt with PTSD and she came back, but all of the new stuff coming out right now with with a series is triggering it. How people want to know how how your relationship is with the girls. Now, have you has how was the healing process gone. We continue to heal. And we have our difficult days when we have our wonderful days and just the idea of dating again, just overwhelm you. How what is your what's your mindset now because it doesn't I mean when we all think about this? It wasn't that long ago. Right. I have not gone on eight. I feel that. There are good men out there and Batman, and if I were to date again, I would definitely go about it so differently. There are people that are listening to this interview right now, and they might be saying themselves the signs of coercive control there. There are signs there that I am a victim. And I don't know how to walk away your advice to those people who are suffering in silence right now. Well, first of all it was easier for me to walk away because I did not have children with him nor well, and I had the fun be able to set myself up. But a lot of these would think dumbs cannot just walk away. They're trapped. They're in a situation. And this is where I Greek third till you Laura what to do, you know, having children? We the puzzle museum Buzek can be the real challenge lobby tone. You story when you're putting huts and meet with him in Hama children. Even though she knew that he was a risk ousted the detective that she was talking to an in Ohio. So I think you know, in every case you have to take on it, say marriage. You know, in the case of the I work why not support victims and trying to ensure the in with your own minds acing, take your time due diligence fact, check incorporate and if something doesn't feel right off. Small question, you know, predators. Do you hide in plain sight, and they don't have to head. They can be good looting. They can be charming and charismatic, and that's the unfortunate thing always collect evidence if their emails or Fe toes, you know, make sure you teeth that keep the guy the few. The time date stamp when it happened in the city impact that it's having lease. So that you have that you can go on. The Dutch was checked this website as well many victims. Do I created a risk assessment tool for law enforcement in the UK cool to domestic abuse stuckey and harassment on the on abate risk model? And I divide the sets of questions victims. I have many families who sit down with their knocked ones and go through it. So get good prosecute by even the dash and two in food the plea. So he considered that we've thought checklist, but really take your time. You know, there's no rush to new things they need for world wind Romans when things really don't feel right off more questions about that. And and then an individualized too late. Now, the isolation is really the tool of the abuser with gas lighting, you know, whether they really do reality to store when you are the one that sought if you like your the problem and. Online other people against to it can be very lonely place. So I'd always say, please. Thank suffering silence. As the place that you can get to support sunny and the dash was check this website. That's a domestic abuse hotline and the state then set domestic abuse outline in the UK and the in the national talking because he Savas so that the world is daunting two-way cops across control and Deborah optimistic that we're going to change the way here in America on the documentary will get people talking about it control because it really can happen to anyone wouldn't that be great. If out of this you've both champion anti-stalking laws in the United States. It would be improving the stoking oil, but it will say claiming what I go to criminalise ation gap. Which is what happens pretty stooping pre seperation, the the known physical behaviors the psychological stuff, the psychological terrorism as I cool, it that's the stuff that I've really liked to see enshrined Moore because it should be a chronic the west thing that can happen. Women women, but lose competence. They they can use that children make news Joel that can leave everything on. It's very terrifying and frightening and lonely place when people don't understand what was happening to you. So I always say, please reach out support. We talked about cost control on numerous home. Call step aside. And in fact, you know, the teacher's pet which heavy Thomas talks about which is a case in Austria, the case of I'm been doing he disappeared seventy seven years ago that was all about control. So the moral pub cost stories we can. Tell that were relatable. And that's why I salute Deborah, you know, I'm gonna go to telling that story because it they a- courageous in doing so because they themselves up to being judged it stops in courts in women tell their own stories about what's going on. And not always what I use to change the rule in the UK fix times is using the victims voice at the center to challenge the status quo into best to protect victims. Well, I appreciate Debra you telling your story. I know it's not this has not been easy for you. I have just thank you very very quick questions. The first do you think that that intruder was real or setup the one that came in cheer Balbo island house? Do you think he set that up? I was that real I believe that Joe ended up. Investigating into it. I think he either sold drugs to her did drugs with her or spent time with her in prison somehow newer. Be. Yeah. He wanted to be watching me is when the whole thing about putting the cameras in the house Debra Clayton to him. I mean, I I would of cases and not felt very state. It didn't feel like a Roo stoking situation of a woman breaking in your brother-in-law, whatever happened to him to ever have to run into him. I have a different opinion than my mom. Did I felt that he used now that I know the term covers the control when I look back. He definitely did that with my sister in one of the reasons, I'm speaking out is because of my sister. She didn't have voice she didn't get to raise her children. She didn't get to meet her grandkids. She didn't have to fulfill her dreams in life, and I've had to run into a few times. And I just walk away. I it it makes me very uncomfortable. While I think that if you and Laura can champion some some policy changes in this country that that's a wonderful way to continue her legacy. That would be a great way to do it. I'm excited to tell everybody that oxygen will premiere a two hour documentary dirty. John the dirty truth on Monday January fourteenth at. Eight o'clock PM eastern Pacific. It is a companion to Bravo. Scripted anthology and the specials going to go beyond the articles in the podcast. And traces John means trail of manipulation it's going to feature exclusive interviews with former girlfriends, I really grateful to both of you for this interview. I think a lot of people are going to be touched by Laura will you tell everybody how they can find more information. Sunny game to the dust risk. Check this website the checklist that I'm going to be paid some author -chools this week on quest the control as well. With some advice and warning signs of gas lighting control and still king real crank price fall website as well. Of course, I have to mention wondering pod cough family, and we're going to be tool king with Deborah and Tonia next week. So we could see extra special episode that will air on the pod car. I pay them off on Instagram as well. You're Richard nine nine nine on Twitter as well. You're rich nine nine. Thank you guys. Both. I really appreciate Debra. Thank you for coming forward. And I'm sending my love to your family. Oh, thank you. Appreciate it. I love handbags are really do right now. I'm obsessing over a blue suede Gucci disco bag on posh, Mark. Do you guys know about posh Mark instead of buying new things you can shop for millions of closets across America. I'm not kidding. You all you have to do is download this free posh Mark app. 'push Mark carries women's kids and men's items tons of brands to shop from like, why a cell Tory Burch, you're not gonna believe the deals that you can find on posh, Mark. For example. I'm also I in right now, this YSL's zip wallet. You'd better not take it for me. It's about three hundred fifty dollars such a steel posh. Mark is the easiest way to buy and sell fashion items medium priority. Shipping is easy for both the seller and the buyer super fast shipping UC something that you want. You can make the seller and offer you can even share your posh Mark closet handled by telling you know, your friends and your family how to find you on the app listers of reality life with Casey get five dollars off their first purchase just enter the invite code reality five when you sign up that's invite. Code reality. Five. Michael Kimmel, and I have been friends I believe since kindergarten. He is a big time writer theater director lives in New York City. He's like big big time. And somehow I was able to convince him to watch Lindsay Lohan speech club, which airs Tuesdays at eight pm eastern time on MTV. Michael welcome to the show again. I'm so happy to be back. And I have to tell you. I secretly want to talk of nothing else. But Lindsay Lohan all the time. But I let me touch on your brother. Jimmy. Did you tell him that? I spoke about my crush on him when I was a child. I kid I did he turned the the red and laugh and then uncomfortably walked away. So good. I don't I don't know who I loved more Jimmy or your system. Orissa Orissa is superstar casting and a real ball. Buster you mentioned to me that there. There's a quality about Lindsay Lohan that does remind you of Marissa can you elaborate? Yet, Lindsay Lohan, and my sister, you can't tell if they're in their late thirty or there early sixties. Do we know how old she is? I think she thirty two. She's thirty two years old. She looks like somebody who has had eight children and lived in a shed with a Yuna bomber for like a good six months. She dresses like one of the one of the grandmothers. He never quite made it, but sort of relive their like the early days in the attic. Yes. I would like these like loss dresses, and I feel like she should have a cigarette holder, and she's always worked sunglasses like, it's it's very very odd. So Lindsay Lohan actress singer entrepreneur, let's use that term lightly. She's expanding her business empire as they say. I'm not really sure what this empire is with the launch of low hand beach house in economics, Greece. Apparently, she had some other club in Athens. The talk about that a lot in the club from what I understand from the Paris Hilton world is that they'll slap the name of a celebrity on a club for cachet. But it's not like they're actually giving a financial investment. So I would like to see some of the financials on this before we call this like an empire. And also it's a little telling that Lindsay Lohan had to go all the way to Greece to like Brando her empire. It's not like she's opening a club in Vegas or in LA. Now, it says the exclusive seaside destination serves as the backdrop as Lindsay manages eight American mbassador hired just to staff club and restaurant. She's a no nonsense boss and needs her team to come together to bring her vision to life her vision. Okay. Well, all right. So she's got this creative business partner partner named panels. And then she hired a bunch of Americans and their party promoters, bartenders hosts and waitresses they're like VIP hose. How familiar are you with the club life and these bottle service situations? I have in my younger days. I definitely went to one or two clubs in New York City. But they didn't I don't think it was the culture that it is now. And also, it all it was always that thing of like when you went to a place with bottle service for me with always like somebody's trying to convince you to spend four thousand dollars on a bottle of that salute. That never seemed like. That never seems like a like they had much consideration for my collagen when they would try and do that. And then they'll give you like containers of cranberry, juice and orange juice. And it's like, we'll isn't this like cutting you out of the equation. Why am I tip in you? You basically brought me to like a Ponderosa if you will situation where I need to make my own drinks. So really, why am I typically you what have you done for me? They're they're encouraging you to pay for the honor of being your own bartender. Lindsey talks a lot at this episode in this show about how these people better be working hard because it's her name. It's her brand. What is her brand? I had the exact same question because I was like why at this point. I don't know that you could do anymore damage to the brand than Lindsay. Lohan has already done. It's not like low hand, he's known for sort of this like, pristine, work environment and pious kind of attitude. Right. She's known for getting kicked off a film system being drunk and drugged up in a club being drunk and drugged up in a club is the low hand brain. I mean, it's very funny because it does it does seem like in all seriousness like she brought a group of immature children, surround her with that she can sort of remake herself as the responsible one. Good call. Good call. Good call. Yup. You're you're correct way to agree with you. Wishes. I I mean, hysterical because I I would argue that the you don't involve if you want to remake yourself as a serious business person in an entrepreneur, and you want to help these kids, and, you know, make sure that you're protecting your brand. I think the last thing I would do is sort of turn it into a reality show. And now the some of the staff members like the bisexual bartender, Mike said that celebrities come in. They wanna talk about the progress problems. You're essentially a therapist for these people are you you've really therapist. If you're bartending at a club in the middle of the night. And are these really celebrities are we talking like movie star? Or are we talking about somebody who appeared on an episode of trading spaces? Yeah. I mean, I don't know that Tom Cruise's sidling up to the bar and talking about his problems with Katie Holmes. There's a one guy who's got a unit brow. He brags about ice leaves with every waitress is that something we want to brag about in the year two thousand nineteen. I mean, I only if you're bragging about the number of times. He's Freddie be what what does she think about the staff meeting held in the middle of the night when everyone was wasted. And swimming naked in the pool. I I mean, I think it's a little bit of I frankly, I don't have what's love for any of, you know, put their all kids. These are all kids who are basically waiters and waitresses right like, and you gave them a house on the beach. And you've also given them twenty years of MTV shows that when you're in a house of the beach, you get wasted and do stupid stuff. Right. And so and and the show is going to be on EBay, which is the home of houses where you do stupid stuff drunkenly. Exactly. Right. And so they did that. And then they brought Lindsay and her business partner over who by the way, if you look at Lindsay and her business partner, don't they kind of remind you of like, the brother and sister that are the bad guys in like a bad movie. Right. Like, they're always kind of like he's sort of like twirling, his not as a thin mustache, and they show up at the beach house embrace these kids for doing. Doing exactly what I'm pretty sure off camera. They were pushing them to do the whole time. Do we'd again all all in service of making Lindsey look businesslike for the first time in her life at the party, the midnight. Staff meeting. Lindsey went through an average person questions and she was bothered because Gabby kept talking about herself. Gabby of course, with blue hair was wasted and Lindsey made a remark to her about you. Sure do like to talk a lot about yourself. And this is really about me. So we'll Gabby last long enough to stay on stuff for like a good week. I going back to the fact like Gabby, I think thing may come at like she nineteen years old. Let's put nineteen year old Gabby next to nineteen year old Lindsey and see who we ended up like better. She talked a lot about her mom and how proud she was to have this this club on the beach. Where is Dina Lu? Han is Lindsay Lohan actually Dina low hand is Dina low hand plane Lindsey in this show and Lindsay's actually buried in a cave. They can't bring Dina on because it would get confusing about who is older than two right? Will we see the other family members Ali on a Dakota, the, you know, the the other siblings. Oh god. I mean, don't you hope so right or having learned their lesson? Like, I I mean, I feel like that lo Han crowd has just been tried out. What about her father her father still round? Yes. He was married to Kate major who was a tabloid reporter. I think they had maybe two children. They're now going through tumultuous divorce. Michael low Hanan Lindsey seemed to have a ebbs and flows to the relationship. I'm going to say this. I could see Michael Lohan appearing and they're going to make one of the final episodes of the season Dina and Michael despite loathing each other for a good twenty five years flirting onset and knots like the real cliff-hanger will they get back together for the second season. I mean, I think this is Gina. I did. But she you have to discover like she doesn't know Michael is there, and then one of the VIP hosts comes over to Lindsey and like, oh someone in Cabana four wants to say hi to you and she walked over. And there's Michael like half in the bag sitting. It's a VIP table. I like that that really it. I'm going to qualify this. As a treadmill show was something you'd wanna watch it at the gym because the time will go by quickly, but not necessarily some that you're gonna DVR to watch with a glass of wine and a bolt nuts off. Do if you are feeling bad about your appearance at this moment in your life. Take a look, and I bet you closer to your age. Then Lindsey goes true. I salute that where can people track down you and information about the shows, you're working on? I'm on Twitter and K I M L. I'm on Facebook. Instagram, and I'm in New York City, you are next show. It's called I don't know what to say to you. It's musical. It's going to be opening in April in the rough draft festival, and I've number of shows opening throughout the country this year. So get funny on Twitter. Knew the choice looking for really cool apps, and I have a great one for you, Robin Hood is an investing app that lets you buy and sell stocks ETF's options and cryptos all commission free. They strive to make financial services work for everyone. Not just the wealthy. So if you wanna be an investor, and the whole thing seems totally overwhelming to you. This is the best op for you. 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So many times I get notes from people, and they say you've got a catch up with this person. They love the bachelor they love real housewives. They love in our pump roles. Well this week on Monday. A friend of mine Fernanda tag me on Instagram note to a gentleman named Steve Tate, a father of six in Utah and said you've got to have him on the show. So I wrote to him and asked if you to come on the show this week, and he thankfully said yes, turn to Tuesday, which was the eighth and I'm scrolling through my Instagram, and I come across a photo that he posted holding his beautiful, son. And it says that January seven three years ago his adorable son was diagnosed with a brain tumor, and I noticed that in the content of the payer within the paragraph. It says that his son's name was Hayes as you guys know, I have a daughter Hayes. So it immediately dawned on me that it was probably some sort of divine connection. So I. I wrote him and said, I'm looking at your picture, and I noted that we made a connection on January seventh. I just saw your picture and my daughter's name is Hayes. Steve welcome to the show. Thanks for having me on what what crazy couple of days. It's been getting to know you. It's awesome. So tell everybody a little bit about your story. Yeah. So as you mentioned from Salt Lake my wife, and I we had three kids, and we decided to go for or baby number four and to our pleasure. It was it became baby number four or five and six so I you know, I sat there as they pulled us we were having triplets, and as you can imagine I almost passed out. And you know, they had to come basically peel me off the floor and give me water, and I was basically going to have six kids. And so we had six kids in life life as as crazy as it was. It was amazing. Like once we got our system down. It was like like conveyor belt like we were like like a baby factory. And so we had him on this system and life was good. And then January seventh two thousand sixteen. We got the unexpected news that Hayes the youngest of triplets. Was diagnosed with a rare brain tumor he had a tumor that was taking up a third of his brain and up to leading up to this. The doctors had told us it was a virus that we went almost a month of doctors turning us away telling us we were over reacting, and he was just he was just you know, getting over a virus. And so, you know, finally are parental instincts. Took us to the point where we couldn't denied any further and we decided to drive drive up to the yarn. You know, basically, demand a cat scan. It was January seven two thousand sixteen. And that's when we got the those stating news from the physician one of which you never wanna hear the parent that your daughter son has has cancer. And so that's the as you mentioned that's kind of that that started this journey, and then we talked we went through six rounds of chemo. My wife lived at the hospital. So she'd lived with as the hospital, and when I say. Like to literally lived. I mean, it was he would come home for a week at a time, but every round of chemo was twenty five days. So she lived there with Hayes. I would obviously go to work feed. The the other kids at home get him dressed, pick them up the school. And then after work I drive a hospital. Switch my wife, so she could come home and visit the kids, and then I she back about eleven o'clock. And we we did we did that for about one hundred fifty days, and he was in remission for short little period of time. And then and then we celebrated Disneyland went to Newport. Life was great and on the drive home from Newport to Salt Lake City. He started throwing up again and to our door to our displeasure. And we we took him to the ER, I got home. And as we got the news that his cancer had returned. And it was unfortunately, more aggressive this time and within two weeks. We. Were sending our son home on hospice and he passed away December third two thousand sixteen. Was so sorry. And the weird thing is that we connected on Instagram when we realize, you know, the Hayes connection, and you asked me where I live, and I wrote to you and said, Newport Beach, California, and tell them how odd that is that connection. You know? I mean, that's so anyone that's fallen our store. You know, we shared our story. You know? I I grew up in Salt Lake. I was kind of I have played football at Utah. And so I was always public. I I was always kind of in the public eye because I'm a sports background. And so we we just shared our story and Instagram, and, you know, little did we know it would take this tired of new dimension where the world kind of gravitated rallied behind our story, and our son, and he touched so many lives. And so we would share the story and default kind of Newport was that point in which know Hades we took as on that trip to Disneyland. And we you know, we stayed at the Marriott there Newport. And you know, that's kind of our it's almost like become our second home. It's almost like are almost our sanctuary. So to speak for where we feel as close because there was you know, some moments there that we shared on the beach prior to impacting away that we're. Pretty pretty intimate. It was it was one of those kind of surreal moments of the dad and Hayes never could speak. You know, he was only twenty months when he passed away. So he was just learning to talk. But there were moments on that beach on Dabo island that we shared him. And I ended up writing a book about about my experience. But it was a robot of that a lot of those members took place in Newport. So that you know, that that another element to this new friendship that you and I have having countered suicide. So he said asked me where I lived. I said Newport Beach. He told me the story about the Balboa island bubble connection. I actually live about a mile from there. And then he sent me the most beautiful picture of his swing on the beach with three balloons, and my family had just been there this past weekend. So it I truly believe it's like a divine intervention where we are supposed to know each other your son Hayes reminds me so much of my own kids. I would have to think that there's he's got his hand in this like once us to meet so Steve's from Salt Lake City. I'm going to Park City next month. So our families are actually going to meet up and hang out. So long story short, Steve is my new friend, and I'm gonna post picture of Hayes and the picture of the balloons in my Facebook group and on my social media. And then I also want you guys at the end Steve's going to talk to you about where you can find his book. Please get a copy of his book and hear their story because it's really really incredible. So the bachelor it turns out, you're an enormous fan, which I so love because so many men watch the show and they pretend they don't and I salute you for standing up and saying that you are a real fan. What did you think that the three hour premiere that was on this week? A little disappointed that there was a there was a party in Park City, Utah without me. And that's that was to be honest. I thought. Goal that have in my life. That's probably right at the top of my list. Somehow, I did not get that opportunity. So first and foremost, I was disappointed. I wasn't invited. But look, let's be honest. Can we ever have enough bachelor? I mean, if it was four hours, I would be glued to the TV set. Right. Why the call? I mean, that's like nineteen eighty TV set who who watches TV sets. Anyways. The size of the point. I would be glued. If it was four hours long. My kids would be. Rampage in the house ranch second house, and I would just be sitting there glued to watching this go down. I think it could have been a lot less than three hours number one. I don't really care about any former contestants. I don't care if you guys had kids. I don't care what you're doing for a living anymore. Once that you're off the season. I don't wanna see you again. And that includes the couple that was from bachelor in paradise in the hot tub, they tried to trick people this week into believe in they're gonna nounce they were pregnant on the show first of all if you're in a hot tub, if you know anything about kids, which obviously these two numb nuts. Don't you wouldn't be roasting your baby in the hot tub. So nice one. I don't wanna see them on TV. I don't wanna see strangers proposing one of the couples the the woman was pregnant I'm like, well, it's not stretch of imagination to know that you're probably going to get a proposal. So my advice producers is next season cut out all the extra. Let's get to the nitty gritty we wanna see three crazy thirty crazy women and a guy who probably will never fully commit to them colts twenty six years old. He. Talked about being a chubby child. He played football. He's only had one serious relationship in that was with gymnast he enjoys a slim, pegged, pant and white sneakers without socks, what do you think about Colton? Do you think that he's actually a virgin first of all or do you think that he is using mystical today some sort of image for television? I don't think he's done the deed is that what you're asking Kate asking. That's what I'm asking. I needed a male perspective on that. So many of the contestants have blonde hair. Most of them are under the age of twenty seven you were married young. Do you think that the statistics are working in his favor to marry somebody like me who's twenty three years old still lives at home and has a mother who's in jail. Could he find? Could he find a wife in this crop of ladies? No, no. You know? Let's let's talk about Demi for a second like where she is. It. The best is the phone call with her mom who's in prison bless, her heart. She then goes on to say, how she hasn't dated a urgent since she was twelve and I put this on my story on my Instagram page like of all the things in life as a dad like that's a proud dad moment. Like all of the things in life. You never wanna hear come out of your daughter's mouth. It is. I'd say like putting the top of this is hey, dad I killed a person with an ice pick. And then the second one is. I haven't dated a virgin since I was twelve do you think that she was named after Demi Moore? One hundred percent. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There's no question. Cassie is seems to be a front runner sheep. Brought in after she was released from the limo. She brought a boxful of butterflies in the earlier moments of the show when she was introduced she explained that she was a twenty three year old speech pathologists and surfer from Huntington beach. Do we believe that she intends on keeping that career as a speech pathologist, or do we think once she was given the go to appear on the show that she closed up shop? I actually my sources my sources tell me. She's not even she's not even lease the licensed speech pathologists. What's? Nope. That's I'm that's what I'm gathering. I've got apparently, I didn't know this. I've got a an array of a speech pathologist at follow me and more than one reach out to me to to share the displeasure in the fact that she was using this as her choice of career when she in fact is not even license and speech pathology. God's getting good. I mean, that's yeah. There you go. That's the juice. Okay. There to pageant contestants one is from Alabama. The other is from I don't know some other state. Do you think that? North carolina. Of course, do you think that pageant contestants should be disqualified disqualified from the show, I can never trust a pageant winners answers, Alex came as a sloth. Do we think that it's still funny when people show up in costumes? No like, I once again, I think her. Who who gives that advice? Right. At one point. Like, don't you have some like dignity? Here. I am. I'm actually the one on on talking about the bachelor, and I'm the one telling people if they've got being any. But yet do don't you have some like pride is if there's no pride left in you're going on national TV, and you're going into the sloth like you've hit you said a pretty point in your life. How many times do you think I'll kiss contest? My how many of these tests since will Colton kiss. Oh, he won't. You mean by the time the show's done. Oh, he's gonna I'm saying it's north of fifteen no way did you notice on bathroom paradise whenever he kissed Tia? He never used his tongue. You know? I didn't. I didn't. I did not realize that. But you also, but they only had now he's got this plethora of women. So I think he's gonna take advantage of he's gonna he's gonna get some practice Hannah is twenty three she says, she's a content creator doesn't that just mean that she has an Instagram account? Yeah. That means she's the signing win to post a story versus window post. They a an actual postal, Catherine is a DJ. She looked sixty. She's got a her lips done for sure she says, she's a deejay. But further internet research has proven to me that she does not even the DJ. She's actually a real estate agent. Do you think that she's trying to get on the show because she feels like Colton is a potential husband or she's hoping to parlay this opportunity to become the next Paris Hilton of a Beezer? Why? I think she's one husband away from being than on on one of those real housewives shows as a dude what can you tell me if you were to be in his position, how important is the sequin dress when exiting the limo. Let's say one of these contestants gets out of that limo in yoga pants, and you know, a workout shirt does she still have a chance if juxtaposition juxtaposition with girls who were wearing sequined gowns for Macy's. But you're asking thirty five year old who has six kids. So I like the definition of for Vida is I want someone who's Baird I want someone who who has hit that can bear like five or six kids. Would it have been hard for you to remember all the contestants names and the final rose? Abso are you can. Yes. Absolutely. He he knows you know, seventy five percent of their names. There's no question, actually, that's probably high. I'd say he probably knows fifty percent of their name the ones that were leftover caroliina. Katie Alex Hannah Nika Caitlyn any Kirpa Heather a lease Asia, Courtney Cassie demean Nina Erica, Sydney, breach Angelique, Tracy, Nicole, and Catherine all the names of something like a boutique in Florida all those girls whose going to rise up and win his engagement ring. All right. So like, I said, I we got Hannah. The one that got the first rose there's there's two hands. So I still think I based on one my my prediction to start with. I thought I thought Hannah just on her picture. I thought it was someone that would go for I still think she has a great shot of being the one at the end, I actually think Cassie might be dark horse. I know you think that because she's from your neck of the woods hundred Huntington beach. Right. You're probably pulling for her. But I I think I'm still going to go with my my initial prediction. I think it'll be I think it's going to be miss Albama. I would like it to be required honest with you. I wanted to be demeaning, and here's why demeaning to me has a mother that's going to be released from jail soon for embezzlement. I want the crazy uncle who's had too much to drink and spill all the families during laundry, I want that I want parole officers. I want ankle bracelets where can people find you? Because they should know when you're watching the show live that you will do Instagram stories, which are hilarious. So where can people track you down? And then I also want you to tell people where they can find your book. So you can find me on my Instagram. That's at Tate twenty eight that's my alter ego. So yeah, follow me at Tate, twenty eight on Instagram. My book I wrote about our journey through through, you know, my with my son and through our our cancer battle, and you can find that book at at Barnes and noble at Amazon, and it's the it's called the twenty month legend, so you go into Masan, it's on Amazon Barnes and noble dot com. Simon and Schuster, but it's the twenty months legend, and it kind of takes you through. You know, it's it's very much who I am. There's a lot of there's comic relief in it. There's obviously some intimate moments that we shared, and then it it. You know, if all the things, you might say, why don't wanna read a book about, you know, this boy that that that passed away from cancer. But the biggest feedback I've gotten is. That as a parent, and is or someone who is who is in third losing a loved one. This story is kind of about hope and about kind of trying to find silver linings and in receiving the bad news. And then obviously, the devastation of losing Hayes. And it's it's more about living in kind of finding hope through through tragedy and trying to learn to to smile and laugh again and and to to live for him. But its shares are tire story and take you through. And I think the very least you'll my hope is that people find that perspective to be a better be a better person. A better mother better father. What do you hope is? He's is legacy. That's an amazing. You know, his legacy is is really through us. And that's that's one of the one of the hardest things to comprehend as a doubt. He was only twenty months old. So I think that honestly all the things that I've tried to kind of grass or try to wrap my head around the fact that he does not get to do all the things that you, and I get to do, you know, he his life was cut short at twenty months. And so the big part of us is is living for him. So, you know, part of what we do. Now, we started a foundation in his honor. It's called the hey tough foundation, and we actually help families and and kids that are battling child with cancer. And we everything from grants to providing health care healthcare costs. The unfortunate part that we do a lot of is we help families with funeral funeral costs. But we have in just a year and a half whereas over five hundred thousand dollars for families and. Last year, we gave over a hundred thousand dollars away through grants and provided either care packages or or some kind of financial systems to over one hundred families. So we've his legacy is gonna continue live on through the book through the foundation. And and and you know, it's kind of an honor to always talk about him. So that to me that's like the best thing having the on. And just allowing me a platform to talk about him and talk about you know, his his life and his his legacy and tell everybody when he's hit is because I love it. Yeah. So Hayes hint is exactly what what what we got yesterday. I mean that. So when I sat down into the hardest thing the hardest thing to do the dad is to receive the news that your child has cancer. But I say right up next to that is telling your other kids that their brother has cancer. And and then the the thing that tops, obviously, all of it is telling receiving the news that your son is gonna die. And then trying to realize that really that midst it's to your kids. You know, there's no book on how to tell your kids that that they're brothers gonna pass away. And asserts is as I tried to find ways in order for my kids to grieve in cope in one of the things we we decided to do was anytime that that there was a thing that either reminded us of of Hayes, or perhaps a moment that defies all. All reason kind of like, you know, you reach out saying, you have a daughter Hayes and you live in Newport. I mean, those are things that I think go above and beyond just a consequence. And so we call those Hayes hits, and I share a lot of those Hayes hints on on my screen page. And I'm telling you, there's been some amazing ones. And I you know, you can go back scroll through them. But I do I know that that through this that you know, Hayes is is is looking over us and that our loved ones are close and they interact with us. And sometimes it takes us sitting back and analyzing and realizing those those are how they speak to us in ways like that. So we call those Hayes hints. Well, again, I'm going to post his picture in the group and on my social media. So everybody can see his beautiful face. And I'm so glad that he brought us together. I'm too I know that he had a lot to do with it. And I appreciate it. This is a lot of fun talking bachelor and talking as to to my favorite things. Amazing cake JC, my great guests this week. Debra Newell, Laura, Richards, Michael Kimmel and Steve Tate. I want to remind you to go and subscribe to the show reality life with key Casey on itunes and to leave a five star review. You will also want to join the Facebook group reality life with Casey just put it in the search bar. So you could discuss this episode and other episodes and reality shows throughout the week. You can find me on Twitter at Kate. Casey. I like to tweet during shows and about shows during the week on Instagram. You can find me at at Cape, Casey, C A, and my website is love and knuckles dot com. Next week. I'm going to be talking about a whole new rubel shows have a great week. These days getting to the things that really matter in life can be tough with all the distractions and pressures out there. But at the end of the day, the things that matter that things that we really cherish are the simple ones and dairy milk is oftentimes a part of those moments milk is simple nutritious and fresh from the farm milk is part of moments that should never be taken. For granted. You know, a lot with a friend sharing a favorite recipe around the dinner table with friends or family or a comforting glass of dairy milk with cookies after school just this week. I made with my kids frozen hot chocolates, and coconut Cokie does using fresh dairy milk. Take a moment to savor the moments that really matter with milk today.

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Shannon Faulkner & Sex Discrimination at The Citadel

You're Wrong About...

1:08:32 hr | 6 months ago

Shannon Faulkner & Sex Discrimination at The Citadel

"Couldn't be. I have like this face that like through no fault of my own. Just like permanently inquisitive. That's my life has been this way welcomed here wrong about the shower. We distract you from the horrible follies of today by talking about the horrible follies of yesteryear yesteryear follies. So's our favorite. Yeah yesterday i am michael. Hobbs i'm a reporter for the huffington post. I'm sarah marshall. I'm working on about the panic. And if you want to support the show. We're on patriotic at patriotair dot com slash about and. There's lots of other ways to support the show. And i'm speeding through again. Because i want to tell sarah about shannon faulkner. I'm so excited. So i texted you. I think like three weeks ago now. And i was like sarah. Do you know who. Or what shannon faulkner is and you said absolutely not and then i basically instructed you to treat shannon faulkner the way i treat jon benet ramsey which is funny because i have never told you my intentions Sewed they just know that. Someday i will relent and do it i. I don't know where this is going. And i know that you're very happy about that. I'm so excited. So i think it's important to cover shannon faulkner because she was one of the canonical maligned. Women of the nineteen nineties. But she was also double maligned because she was almost instantly and completely erased. Yeah she wasn't on any of the. Vh1 countdowns were you aware of this controversy over whether or not women could attend the citadel. Yeah i know that there was a military academy upstate. New york or something south carolina south carolina. All right. those are completely different places. Where i got that yeah. I know that that happened in the nineties. And i feel as if the concept of women in military academies and women. His women in the military feels to me like one of the issues that felt like it was really important and divisive in the ninety s. And i feel like. I grew up hearing a lot about. Yes oh my god she. I jane and iconic film. We spent years debating. This is one of the longest civil rights trials in us history. It's also one of the most expensive. I mean this to me is the progression that we're going to track in this episode and i think something really important about social change so shannon faulkner tries to get into the citadel. She can't get in because she's a woman. The case resolves itself in a very unsatisfying which we will get to and twenty five years later for the first time. The citadel has a female student body president. It's called something different because there's like special names for everything there. It's all military ish right. A journalist goes to this female student body president and says well what do you think about. Chen factor in this massive nationwide controversy. And this first female student body president says who shannon faulkner. Oh my so there's no shannon faulkner plaque and no kind that suggests that like the school has schools are so decisive in the lore that their students become adults. Fight believing you know. I mean the the spirit of thomas. Jefferson is like wandering around the grounds of uva. Right probably drunkenly and. there's also something i think about fighting for social justice where entrenched institutions. We'll fight and fight and fight and the minute they lose. They'll say oh. We always wanted to do this. It's not a big deal. And then of course. We erase entire fight and people who had their lives ruined. Those are the first people to go. So that's basically what this episode is about is how all of this happens to shannon. Well i'm so excited for this. Feels if i'm about to get on a slow dreadful roller coaster. It is dreadful but it does have a happy ending. Wow i'll just spoil it for you okay. Well not almost never happens. So we're going to start out with a scene. It is december of nineteen ninety-two shannon is in a social studies class. They are discussing a sports illustrated article. That is about hazing practices at this military school called the citadel We don't know a ton about shannon and her upbringing and what. She's like what we do know is she's popular. She's in the marching band. She plays sports. She's an excellent student. Her mom is a high school teacher. Her dad runs a fence building company. The author of the book about her called in glory shadow makes a big deal out of the fact that she was born prematurely and she sort of she was a fighter her whole life. Okay which honestly feels a little like a little projection to me like you don't have much to work with. I would be fine with never hearing another person described as a fighter. I know this is an extra prima susan faludi essay in the new yorker which is one of the best essays about this case. She says one could scrounge around in faulkner's childhood for the key to what made her take on the citadel. But there's little point in detailed inspection of family history because there's no real mystery here but his most striking about shine herself is that she's not particularly unusual. She reads novels by tom. Clancy and john grisham has worked at a local daycare. Center is partial. To places like bennigan's she wants a college education so she can support herself and have a career as a teacher or journalist. She hasn't yet decided which she might do. A stint in the military she might not. She's in many ways representative of the average striving lower middle-class teenage girl circa one thousand nine hundred four who intends to better herself and does not intend to achieve that betterment through a man in fact she is not a moment entertain such a possibility so this is something that comes up in a lot of the accounts of shannon when. She's a kid and also later on that she doesn't seem to give a shit what other people think. In contrast to a lot of the people that we've talked about on the show. She's actually very clear about what she wants. And very confident in asking for it. So there's times later when journalists will call her and be like. Hey can i do an interview with you. And she just said like no and hangs up the phone. That's great so as they're having this debate the class seizes on this weird detail about the citadel that there's only two all male military schools in america that are state funded these are public institutions that do not allow women. There's one in virginia. And there's one in south carolina the citadel and shannon immediately like my tax dollars are going to the school and i cannot attend. This just seems fundamentally like bullshit to me. Does she live in south carolina. Oh yeah i guess she would cause. Then that's why she's entitled to an education there she's powders ville south carolina which is sort of across the state the citadel in charleston and so this is december of her senior year and she sort of in the midst of applying for colleges for the following year. Two weeks later she goes to. The guidance counselor's office and she's applying to four colleges and so they fill out the first three applications and then shannon tells the guidance counselor i also want to apply to the citadel and the guidance counselors like but that's only open to men and shannon's like here's what i want you to do. She asks the guidance counselor to take all of her transcripts and all of the documents that the school has on her and white out all references to gender So instead of being on the women's volleyball team they white it out so it just says volleyball team. I love this i love. I know he's a running an experiment. She also gets the guidance counselor to write her recommendation letter with no pronouns. Nice since the guidance counselor right this very carefully. So it's like anything shannon puts shannon's mind to do very much about this kinds counselor and on this basis really cool. I loved it. All of the adults around her are like this is truly but also go for it. This is like trickster richness motivated by a sense of injustice. Yes when her mom hears about this plan. Apparently her mom just has classic shannon. She does this. It all seems like funding games until someone ends up a three year long civil rights lawsuit and also it turns out that at the citadel a couple years previously there had been a relatively well known football player named shannon. That's not a super uncommon boy's name so the people at the citadel c. this application from shannon faulkner day. Just assume well it's obviously a boy because why the hell would a woman ever apply here. Everybody knows that women aren't allowed in so on january. Twenty second of nineteen ninety-three shannon faulkner gets an acceptance letter. That says dear. Mr faulkner welcome to the citadel. Basically nice and so the high school where her mom teaches the assistant. Principal has a son who attends to citadel. Shannon's mom's start saying l. My daughter got into the citadel. Rumor of this goes through the high school then. The rumor ends up with this. Whatever sophomore at the citadel and so he is the one that then contacts like the board of the citadel and is like Do you guys know that you admitted a woman known no and so two weeks after she gets the acceptance letter she gets another letter revoking the acceptance It's written very quickly. They sent her a letter and they sent a separate letter in the same envelope to her mom basically scolding her. Why did you let your daughter do this. Oh my gosh. Adult and also shannon has now been accepted into the other three schools. I have no evidence for this but it is very possible that if the school hadn't revoked her admission shannon would've just gone to one of these other schools. If i were her my response would have been like cool. That's funny. I'll go to wherever else i applied but then if they revoke it. I'll be like you guys. Yeah so basically classics shannon. He goes through the yellow pages. She finds a civil rights lawyer. Like the super awesome lady who does like abortion cases and stuff and walks her through the whole thing and says do i have a case and the lawyers like yeah. I don't see why not. This is also the rare case of the maligned. Nineties woman who wasn't dragged into the spotlight by her bangs and so the first thing lawyer does is she calls a press conference and that attracts the aclu. Because remember how i mentioned. There's only one other military institute in the country that has publicly funded that doesn't allow women. Yes that school is called. Virginia military institute. And it's getting sued by the department of justice for not allowing women in and one of its main arguments is that there's no demand how male military institution from when it raised so the. Aclu is back against this idea that there's no demand from women to go to military institutions and here comes shannon who is demanding to attend a military institution and the aclu offers all of their legal services for free so by the time they actually filed a case in march of nineteen ninety-three. She has eight lawyers. It seems like a lot of big cases. Happen this way where it's like. You have a legal concept that you need to find a vehicle for yet and then the plaintiff is like this person who sort of the lack of the numbers game of american populations like embodies. The problems that you are trying to address yes and we often pretend that it's about this individual when it's very obviously about this larger issue and the president that it's going to set right and where they have to be like i volunteer as tribute yet. So what do you know about the citadel. Have you ever heard of this before this controversy. Yeah i've heard that word. I know that the citadel is a school that basically fought to keep women out. That's really all i know. It's also a very weird thing because people are gonna get mad at me for this but it's sort of marmi 'cause play west point and these other official military institutions that we have america are they have official relationship with the military it's like a pipeline into the military the citadel is just its own thing so only around a third of graduates end up going into the military. There's all of this sort of pomp and circumstance within the school like the students have these ranks sort of quasi-military rings. And there's this vocabulary that you have to use and you have to stand at attention and say sir and all this kind of stuff. But those are rules at the citadel. They're not officially linked up to the military. So it's interesting that the school is like silly and the lawsuit is kind of revealing their silliness in an uncomfortable way. Perhaps because we're like we can't allow women in because it would interfere with the importance of us pretending to be soldiers. Yes it's basically theater camp. So i read to histories of the citadel and most institutions in america. If you look into them have pretty rough history. Maybe has like the worst history i've ever seen. It's like a fucking. Snl sketch offensive can history be founded in eighteen. Twenty two to respond to a slave uprising. It's actually a bit of a you're wrong about. The uprising was organized by a guy named denmark. Visi the narrative was always that this was a sprawling plot of all these people and hundreds were involved and it was this massive conspiracy and when historians went back in the nineteen sixties to actually look at the primary documents. They found that it was basically just a bunch of rumors. It wasn't planned. They had no date. It was just something that they talked about as like. Wouldn't it be cool. If so academics now refer to it as a legal lynching where it was essentially just an excuse to execute denmark visa and his quote unquote co-conspirators. So that in itself is a really gross story but then what happened after was there. Were all these. Vigilante squads that wandered around charleston like burning down churches and the reason the citadel was founded was to train quote unquote citizen soldiers to prevent any future uprisings of enslaved peoples. Like that was the point. I see how like Leading a female student and the school would sully beautiful history. God you're right. I really was ready to be like. I don't know. Jesus eventually it turns into just a normal military college and then according to its graduates people at citadel fired the first shots of the civil war. I didn't really look into whether that was true or not. Just because it's like such a big part of the lower of the school that they're really proud of this project. Fi like is like that in itself is telling whether or not it's true right like either. It really happened or it didn't happen and they thought it would be cool if it did happen. Most history is like kind of made up but then it's more useful in revealing like who the people telling it are yes so over time the citadel becomes an increasingly closed loop it becomes more conservative over time because the more it drifts away from the general progressiveness of the country you know nineteen sixties protests etc. It pushes back. Against all of these things and overtime it starts to attract students that are interested in this sort of increasingly archaic lifestyle. As it's like four chan it is like it. It becomes this distillation chamber and also the alumni network. They also protect the school. So every once in a while an outsider sort of reform her will be appointed as the president and will try to institute reforms and then the entire alumni network threatens to pull donations. Oh there's also a series of scandals that make it even worse. So i'm gonna send you a photo. Okay we're looking at a photo of it. Looks like a high school or a threat of a guy who i gotta say has like young farmer in babe energy cisl. Looks like it was taken in the sixties the seventies because i'm seeing kind of what looks like allowed patterned tui- and he's got. Some thick lassus is sticky out ears. And he he looks just like a lovely and ungainly boy in a large man's body of seventeen or eighteen. This is harry de la roche. he is seventeen. When this is taken he ends up getting into the citadel and the minute he gets into the citadel he experiences this absurd system. they have of hazing cadets. It began as an explicit way to build solidarity and to build school spirit. So it used to be they would give you this history handbook of the school and you had to basically memorize it If you were a freshman you had to sort of stand at attention. And if an upperclassman came up to you who was the president of the school in nineteen twenty four. You'd have to say like norman poindexter or whatever and then they would correct you or not correct you build school spirit acapella with someone. You don't trust. I mean it seems very silly to me but also it was designed as something that would be sort of shared knowledge between students like a way of developing an inside language for people with in this institution. But so what happens is over time this hazing just becomes more and more brutal and also because it's a close loop whatever you experience as a freshman you're going to do to the freshman when you're a senior so the first week of school is known as hell week. And by the time. Harry gets there in nineteen seventy six. It's just like beatings and stuff. It's not creative. This is the most criticism. I i love what you're saying. Which is that obviously. It's horrible but also they're not even doing what they said they were doing right. What happens what what kind of stuff to kids have to endure. One of the things that happens to harry. Is they cut his shins with a razor blade. Poor shoe polish on them. They're like. I can't cut your face because you've got to go work the streets tonight. I mean a big thing is sort of keeping your shoes polish and keeping your uniform crisp and tight and so this i believe is a punishment for having scuffed shoes. Another big thing is technically upperclassmen. Have the right to take away food from fresh. Also if an upperclassman demands food you have to give it over so for weeks. Hairy just isn't eating because every time he sits down to eat in the cafeteria some upperclassmen comes and takes away his food. You know what's funny. Is that like when i was a teenager. I think this stuff didn't hit me as hard because i was like. I am basically in adult. And now that i see teenagers as children. I'm just like hauer adults condoning this an at various points. The teachers try to push back against us because the teachers like people are coming to class and they haven't eaten. They haven't slept how people learning anything again closed loop a lot of the adults that around a lot of the adults in the administration. They went to the school they build character and have not seen a problem. This is seen as an essential component of masculinity you have to experience abuse builds character. Working at a waffle house to those people can be escalate life. Nobody i think that the thing that we think of is masculinity is something that you basically need to be abused to become but that's not actually masculinity. i know it doesn't relate to being male. I guess relates to having been abused yet and we just confused the two so thanksgiving of his first year harry. He says that his mom has terminal cancer and he has to go home for thanksgiving early. He's lying just to get out of the school and once he gets home. He's sort of in. His head has decided he's not going to go back to the school. He's like. I can't take this anymore. Because his dad is like this military asshole he's got using harry. It's really terrible. He's not gonna let him quit. And so brace yourself. Harry delaroche murders his entire family. Oh yeah he kills his mom and his dad and his two brothers. Yeah because this is such a huge national story. At the time it contributes to the closed loop nature of the citadel because who wants to apply to a school where the hazing practices are so severe that they lead to an outcome. Like this. it's only going to be people who don't see the hazing as dealbreaker are specifically attracted by the hayes it This closed loop gets even worse in the nineteen eighties like everything. The school started allowing in black students in nineteen sixty six but it did so very quietly the school with never more than five or six percent black. What's their student body on. The whole is the thousands. How biggers two thousand students total. Oh that's small. So in nineteen eighty-six. There is a student in kevin smith who is black and this is super fucked up a bunch of upperclassmen that he's like not pulling his weight so as a quote unquote galactically. Large fucking quote marks prank. They dress up in klan robes and go into his room at night with a burning cross. Oh my god he is okay. Nothing really happens they sort of go in there and they shouted at him and his roommate. Who is white wakes up. And it's like you've got to be fucking kidding me get the fuck out here and like it just chaos a this also becomes a national story because it's fucking outrageous yeah. Kevin ends up quitting school pretty soon after because yes of course. Meanwhile all five of the kids who dressed up in klan robes as a quote unquote prank. End up graduating right. They're not given any major punishment. This is the kind of wonderful culture that a female student body might challenge. This can't like girls and they'll ruin everything. What's so fascinating about. This is that this also ends up reinforcing. The closed loop thing because what happens to minority enrollment after this black people basically start applying to the school. Because of course they do. Yeah if you have one hundred. Black students sprinkled into a culturally white institution. The culture can remain fundamentally the same. It seems like exactly. And i think there's this kind of cultural stereotype that as the country becomes more progressive all these conservative institutions. We'll sort of inevitably come along like be dragged by the tide of history or whatever but we tend to see is that a lot of these institutions actually become more conservative because they feel like they're the only ones left so by the one thousand nine hundred. Eighty s by the time shannon applies. It's actually like part of the school's identity that we're one of the last schools to not allow women like that's actually a huge draw for students and like a big part of the way that they think about themselves not acute look. It's not cute so next section. Were eventually going to talk about the court case. But there's about six months before the court case really happens all these sort of preliminary hearings and motions blah blah blah. What happens almost immediately after shannon files. The lawsuit is that she becomes a massive celebrity. Oh my she's on the news. She starts getting recognized at restaurants now. And what's amazing. Because i spent a lot of time on lexis nexis almost all the attention is negative. Yeah i feel like in the ninety s. There was what i would almost. Call a moral panic. It was like a low great moral panic about women. Invading masculine institutions yes and a huge percentage of the pushback came from win in really. This is a a letter to the new york times published in nineteen ninety-four as red the article. I wondered why any woman would want to spend her college years. At an institution like the citadel just to prove a point come on which she doesn't have to attend but there's so much of the discourse is like why is this pushy faking her way into the citadel when the citadel isn't somewhere where women need to be anyway well okay by that logic. It's a place where no one needs to be and it just shouldn't exist because maybe if that's the solution everyone's happiest with than fine. One of the notes that shannon gets his you homely feminist. I'm sorry for you. You have to force yourself on men to feel important. Women are the cruelest other women. Sometimes it's weird man. There's a fucking shocking letter to the editor new york times by a female world war two veteran and she ends the letter with. It's up to you. Men may harass women they don't harass ladies can guess fuck off has idiots and it's not your business men faulk pumpkins. The harassment has nothing to do with your quality of character. Miss wack lady shannon also starts to see t shirts around town one of them says the citadel. Nine thousand hundred fifty two bulldogs and one bitch. There's a billboard in charleston where somebody writes die shannon in big red paint and it stays up for a couple of days before they managed to take it down. Charleston should stick to ghost tours. This is from the susan faludi article about the super fucked up harassment of shannon and her parents at their house. Unseen hands have drained. The swimming pool delivered death threats painted epithets and towns across the clock board and turn wheelies through the flower beds. The gas tank on shannon's mother's car was pride. Open someone driving. A ford bronco. Mowed down the mailbox. Shannon's mother called the county sheriff's department about the vandalism but in anderson county which has been home to many citadel graduates. The deputy who arrived was not particularly helpful. Well if you're going to mess with the citadel you're just going to have to expect that was it. Oj twist a lot of it really feeds into this weird narrative that she's pushy and that also that she's a lesbian like it's very interesting to me. How quickly people at the time needed to call her a lesbian. that's relevant. that's a way to discredit someone. I guess is to call them. Gay shirt also. I'm sure lesbian would love to go to school with two thousand dick's like use your heads. Dummies this is actually shannon in an interview later. They're asking her about these rumors that she's a lesbian and she's like. Why would i go to a school full of men serious. She's actually pretty good at pushing back on this stuff. There's a reporter that sort of following her around on her daily. Whatever and somebody yells at her. You should be ashamed of yourself and shannon just immediately like tell me why the constitution does not apply to me and the person just like keeps walking away. It's funny because like the response to this as a she's getting hayes. Yes i america. That's good sir. Thank you so basically. I want to go through the court cases. There's a lot of weird. Back and forth that i'm going to skip. One of her lawyers says they thought us on every grain of sand. But i wanna talk about the arguments. Why women shouldn't be allowed into adult. You know this'll be fine because we're having a renaissance completely ridiculous legal arguments. So i'm excited. So there's basically three arguments the first and it sounds like i'm trolling. The first argument is that women are inferior to men. There's some very interesting legal scholarship. One of the people who actually testified on shannon's behalf has written a bunch of articles on the argument. Sydow makes his. Name's michael kimmel any points out that there's a difference in the law between gender discrimination and race discrimination because race discrimination. The underlying assumption is that there is no difference between the races whereas with gender discrimination. There is an underlying difference. So it's okay under certain circumstances to treat women differently than men right. I think you can say in broadway of on. The whole women are smaller than that. If you pick a random woman random man and the woman will tend to be smaller but then you got to lay push and push and push that until you elasticized it into the staying of lake women. Are these tiny weak little crunchy core with marshmallow around it. You know you dislike you extrapolate. Yeah fact that's a relevant to the thing you're trying to talk about to something that is claiming to be relevant right. I think a good contrast is that hooters has argued successfully in court that they're only gonna hire women because that's a central requirement of the job of working at hooters whereas police departments have argued unsuccessfully. For this yeah. A man can have breasts. Yes he couldn't flirt with with a straight customer and the same way so this was the main argument of the senate was basically women. Couldn't hack it. And they aren't able to be cadets at the citadel. It's funny to me that their argument that they're saying because of our wonderful special school women can't keep up and it's like i got news for you. Your school is defined basically by the amount of abuse yes that its students are supposed to withstand it. If you're making the argument that women are inferior at coping with abuse than like. I don't know. I feel like the county that legally. Yes i mean. This is literally their argument. So this is an excerpt from michael kimmel's article on this. The adversarial model to sit argued is only effective for males. The rat lined the barracks lifestyle their rigorous honor code. These were simply too much for women's purportedly fragile constitutions to bear women. The school claimed were not capable of the ferocity required to make the program. Work they are physically weaker more emotional and cannot take stress as well as men. What the school cited more than one hundred physical differences that resulted in a natural hierarchy between women and men with men of course at the top if admitted female cadets would break down crying and suffer psychological trauma from the rigors of the system. Oh so they're saying that they're male students are on traumatize. Their fight obviously fascinating. I think all these people need to be stopped. I also i love this. That one of the things that goes around is that the school has strict physical standards. So you have to be able to do forty five push-ups and sit-ups in two minutes and you have to be able to run two miles in sixteen minutes but then it's amazing about. These fitness requirements is the school only past those fitness requirements after shannon. Faulkner sued them. They're doing this specifically to keep shannon out. Come on you guys. You should've made your physical requirements like washes balls once a week and they'll be like you have no balls shannon. What would he be washing by. This is kind of a tangent but those sort of the literature on women being in fear of men led me to a bunch of old arguments that have been used throughout time for not allowing women into these educational institutions like uteruses row around their bodies and that makes them vulnerable literally. Listen to this fucking quote. What was the best selling book on. Higher education of the entire century sex and education from eighteen seventy three edward c clark harvard's first professor of education predicted that if women went to college their brains would grow heavier and their wombs would atrophy. Oh is it because the blood is going to the brain and the womb is naturally the first thing for the body to delegate. Is that his main evidence for this is the correlation between women who have college educations tend to have fewer children. That's because they're older when they start having children and probably they're more likely to have the means to practice birth control correlations not causation. My guy so the school's second which is slightly more convincing but still not that convincing is that women and men each have a right to go to single sex educational institutions and so shannon if she attends the citadel is depriving men of their right to be educated with other men so she's closing all the men's schools by attempting to enroll in this one. She's changing the fundamental nature of the education. that is being offered. There's actually they use the argument that it's a diversity in education argument that you should have there. You can go catholic school. You can go to a quaker school or you can go to male only school and so to maintain all of these choices. We can't dilute what is being offered like that is. The central argument. Didn't go to an all girls school. Yeah for five years. Okay how how do you feel about that. Hated it sucked really. I know that people have positive experiences at single sex schools. Because i'm not one of them. That's the thing. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. I did look into the empirical evidence on same sex education and there's an extremely consistent relationship between attending a single sex school especially girls only schools and better. Sat scores better grades. Better college admissions cetera. But what all of the research points out is that it's impossible to disentangle. The effect of the single sex nece from the fact that most single sex schools are private institutions to say that some like all girls high school in some posh suburb of chicago. Or whatever it's like. Eighty percent of our graduates go to college. It's like those are a bunch of like rich kids right probably would have gone to college anyway so you can't really say that it's like the fact that they went to school with a bunch of girls that made them successful. Yeah i mean something that i hear. A lot isn't like girls are more likely to speak up if there aren't boys in the classroom yes. I've always spoken up in the classroom. And i was in a girls school between the ages of eight and thirteen contributed to it. Who knows i mean in the literature. They they mentioned that some kids would really benefit from sort of single sex environment but also other kids really wouldn't and we don't have great ways of separating those kids and some kids would benefit her waldorf school and some goods would benefit. Yeah playing a lot of hockey and some kids would benefit from playing no sports anchors. Kids are different exactly so anyway. I mean i have no interest in lake trying to change the fact that they're single sex schools but essentially as a legal argument. We must protect the right of boys to go to same sex schools. It just doesn't really hold water legally especially considering it's a publicly funded school and there aren't any women's only military institutions. A lot of it comes down to the fact that if there was a citadel for women she would just go to that and it wouldn't really be discrimination right and so they're they're creating a situation where for the state of south carolina to then have to start a horrible women's military academy exactly so the third and final and kind of hilarious. Assist argument for defending citadel is allowing women will destroy the citadel. Why ever will into that. This is for michael kimmel article. One of the citadel's expert witnesses matter general josiah bunting. The third suggested that women would be a toxic kind of virus that would destroy the citadel thanks adolescent males benefit from being able to focus exclusively on the task at hand without the intrusion of any sexual tension. This is an institution for learning racism if we allow women who turned into a gentle sex comedy. Like porkies. I also love that sort of central to this argument. And you hear this in all of the discourse around. This is fucking showers. I feel like it can't be a moral panic. Showers are involved in nineteen ninety. Four times article weighing heaviest on the cadets. Mines was the preservation of the all male communal. Bathroom the sharing of these stalls showers install toilets is at the heart of the citadel. Experience according to more than one cadet. Okay my favorite thing about this. Is that these people have to like an legal language justify the absolutely bizarre and toxic culture. They've created this fool another defending as if it is like the most illustrious of traditions. I mean the shower thing. I think is actually interesting because to me. It illustrates the extent to which this isn't working for anyone a lot of the cadets when they're interviewed by journalists they'll say like if women are here we can't be intimate with each other and they're afraid of getting humiliated in front of a girl if they're getting yelled at by upperclassmen or forced to do push-ups or whatever they don't want a girl to see. I mean something. I wonder about a lot is like if you can't have physical affection like do you find closeness through fighting totally and conflict and like this hazing. It's very physical. Yeah it just feels like at every point the arguments against letting shannon in are just an argument against the school and this whole dumbs. It's like just be intimate with each other. Be friendly and nice form sustainable mature relationships. You can just do that. It's the most amazing self. Tell that these people are like listen. I'm fine with being abused. I don't want to be abused in front of a girl. And it's like why are you fine with it. Not in front of the head of the cadets he's interviewed by susan faludi and he says that not having women at the school makes them better at respecting women. It sounds like i'm summarizing that unfairly but his actual quote is the absence of women makes us understand them better in anesthetic kind of way. We appreciate them more because they are not here okay. I guess you can thank longingly of the idea. Women if you don't see much but like as they're so hostile to any kind of change that that really is what's wrong with them so one of my favorite things. Susan faludi goes to a gay club in charleston. And she asks around. Have you guys. Ever dated cadets in the citadel and so this is what she says she says in two visits to the treehouse. I only find to drag queens out of maybe a dozen who did not tell me of dating cadet and that was because those to the citadel men to emotional is easier the action like five seconds into any sexual encounter. Everything they've been repressing just comes spewing out of no it's like these closeted little eighteen year olds in these super homophobic environments babies but if there was a girl there it would everything. They cry whenever they saw. But so it's very. This kind of rhetoric is very interesting and a lot of people pointed out that this is another component of sort of reactionary movements or of majoritarian movements who are afraid of their way of life being threatened that the citadel is very traditional and our way of life is the best but also it's so fragile that the existence of one woman would completely destroy it. This is one of my favorite quotes. It's like tone it fucking down. This is from cather mangled book. She's talking to a cadet just sort of wandering around the campus lingering on the open quad. He fumbled for his words. If shannon faulkner came he said everything would change it would be like a world without gardens. He observed dejectedly if women were cadets. Then who would make things beautiful okay. It doesn't mean that every woman the entire country has to come to your school. You obviously don't have enough dorms for that. This has to be one of the cadets that data dragging but he was too emotional. Anyone can garden garden. Everyone speaking for the school that you have cited in this story. It sounds like they're just going through it. Is it also like the idea that if she were able to withstand this world lakewood render it unspeciifed. All ooh i hadn't thought about that but yes if they lose the sense of inherent superiority to most other human beings than like it will just ruin their lives. Yeah yeah yeah. Are you ready. For shannon to get to the citadel. Yes i have a picture for you. I assume they're going to give her a cute. Bob like an an officer and a gentleman. It's not clear to me. That i know what bob is is that bob. Yeah i would describe that as acute bob. It's like chin length pair with a big brett at the back. Like elaine so this is shannon going to her first day of school. I see a young woman of i assume eighteen. She's nineteen but this nineteen. He's got a rose. Pink t shirt and white shorts with like a very charlestoncounty luck. Very like high preppy. Yes i'm getting like. Clarissa quantico vibes. yes and she's being locked in to the citadel. It feels like a prison. It looks like they're going to let jake lose out fresh reference. I mean it's interesting prison because this is like a weird limbo two years for shannon wow in nineteen ninety-three so seven months after she applies to the school originally the cases winding its way through court. Again i'm not going to get to all the different details of the stays that are denied and the denies that our state and all that kind of stuff. A judge says the school has to let her in but doesn't have to let her in to the cadet ary okay. They only have to let her into classes like if she doesn't conduct. She has nothing to shower after. So we're safe. yes so shannon can attend classes. But she can't do anything else. She can't be on the yearbook. She can't join any sports teams. She can't be any clubs. There's parts of the campus that are only open to cadets and she cannot go. They're they're basically waiting for the state of south carolina to propose an equivalent military education for women but while that is being set up there's no justification for keeping her out of the school where a big sign around her neck that says shun. I mean basically of course everybody knows who she is so the first day of school. She sits down in biology class at eight. Am and the other students in her row. All move their seats like a girl. Yeah there's this super fucked up thing where she gets an a. In math and they have a standing thing at the end of every semester that all of the students who get as get invited to like a pizza party type of thing and then when shannon gets an a. They changed the rules so that the pizza party is only open to people who are majoring in math. You know a journalist interviews the head of the math department and he basically says it would just be awkward if she was there as we all want to talk about how much we hate her. This is why social change is hard is because the first person to do anything like it fucking is awkward to have a woman at a party but it's also pretty chicken shit too just like sorry. We have to fuck her over because they don't want to be weird for an evening. I don't know guys. Maybe it's good for you to learn how to behave when you're not in an attitude populated entirely by men because you're gonna have to do that like after this. It's also weird year because you know her kind of main activity now is appearing at court stuff. I mean being the plaintiff in one of these cases is really time consuming. She's living with one of her lawyers because he lives in charleston and her family's back and powders ville and now as we've talked about so many times on the show people do not make money being part of these cases like there's no salary associated with spending all of your time in court and so she works nights as a waitress at a wings. Place the one point of light in all of this is the first day of school. She gets flowers from the last surviving garden. Honor and there's a note that says shannon all good wishes from the mother and sister of citadel graduates exclamation point. Oh that's nice. I was really thinking that they were from dolly parton. But this is not even better so finally. In april of nineteen ninety-five a court rules that the citadel has to admit her as a cadet. The path is open for her to attend the citadel the following year but then it takes a couple of months for the senate to basically set up the logistics of having her live on campus. Because they've never had women living there before. And so they need like barracks and bathrooms and all this kind of stuff they originally. We're gonna have her sleep in the infirmary like the sort of like nurse bids but then there's no lock on the door and her lawyers have to be like are you kidding me like we're gonna need some security precautions. Yeah seriously got that woman. Behind like at least three bolts so eventually they have to set up like panic buttons and federal marshalls and security cameras. And all of that stuff takes time so she just ends up attending the citadel as a day student until the end of that school year and so two things happen during the summer before she attends the citadel for real the first thing is that the media attention on her quadruples. Because there's this big controversy over whether or knock. She's going to shave her head. Okay i know. Why is this a story. What has been national media necessary in this. Why does this caused an uptick. Like what's what's tell me about this. My theory is there's a huge appetite for stories in which sort of social justice crusaders members of minority groups. Overreact to small slights. The school makes all of the freshman shave their heads and shannon wants to go to the school therefore shannon should shave her head. Shannon is actually fine with this but her lawyers. They wanna fight this because west point all of these other military schools have been admitting women since the seventies they do not require women to shave their heads. They require women to just have hair. That doesn't touch their caller so her lawyers i think somewhat understandably like you're clearly doing this to humiliate something that is totally out of pattern so this then becomes this. Perfect narrative of women are oversensitive. And if you want to go to the school where you shave your head. Why are you now complaining. That they're making you shave your head. And so this launches a million articles that managed to overlook the sort of underlying issues. Should women be able to attend all male institutions and skip straight to women being oversensitive and they're demanding this thing that is completely ridiculous like that's the way that it gets framed of course but so a judge rules that shannon has to shave her head. Row fucking janet reno steps in at one point and writes a letter and then the judge relents and says okay. It's up to the school. We're just going to give the authority to the school. But then there's so much attention on the school at this point that they're like We're not gonna do it in the end so in the end they let her not shave her head like they. Just let her bob that you saw. They should get a camera and shave her head while she sings. I dreamed dream. Yes she also another reason. This summer is so bad. Is that as she starts. Showing up in the press again and photos is that shannon has visibly gained weight. She talks about these two years. She's not able to play sports. She's living with her fucking lawyer eventually. It's not going well and she moves back in with her parents so she's commuting long distances. She's hello stressed out. she's working. She talks about all the stress eating. I mean there are a lot of things that you can do as somebody in public life. You cannot be a woman who visibly gains weight. There starts to be bumper stickers that say save the males shave the whale. Oh what the fuck is wrong with people everything and in the nineties i think there was very little countervailing whole carol royse in mainstream america on the side of lake. Let's not attack women. Her weight gain is if they are murderers. The other thing that happens in this summer that i feel like we have to discuss. She is grocery shopping in charleston and a man comes up behind her and puts his arm around her chest and his other hand over her mouth and he whispered in her ear. I can't touch you while you're on that campus. But i can't get to your parents. I know a place where i can watch them. Burn and then he just like. He's gone as quickly as he came. Oh my god. I mean between the sort of everything else going on and being in the press. I mean she's just like on edge all the time and also like you know. The threat is so mark. That i also wanna take a moment to emphasize what that guy did as assault. Yes yeah and so on. August twelfth. nineteen ninety-five. She attends her first day as a cadet at the citadel. And i'm going to send you eight newspaper front page way Okay so this is the greenville news. Greenville south carolina and the headline. is she quits. Yeah and the sub head says something concerns caused shannon faulkner to leave citadel yep and then the caption for the photo is citadel. Cadet celebrate in the quadrangle of low barracks after shannon faulkner announced. She was something. Yeah well these okay. Simpson kenny piano. So after all of this two and a half year long legal battle everything that she's been through up to this point she only lasts one day The first day of school she goes. There's like registration things that she has to sign. Just go to the bookstore and get books. There's various logistical things that she has to do. And it's one hundred two degrees. There's like a lot of people on campus. He was the first day of school. So there's lots of people milling about and you know there's cameras there. There's press it just sort of like a sort of scene of general chaos for the first morning at some point during this morning. She's in a crowd on this campus. And she hears somebody whispering into her ear. The heat in charleston. Make some folks crazy. It can play tricks on your mind and she recognizes the voice. It's the guy from the grocery store. Yeah yeah so. Who knows if that's actually true right like this could be something you know that she's imagining or not. I mean to me. it's totally plausible. That it's the same guy or if it's a different guy that it's lake in a way the same guy because like any one of these men could like up and kill her her parents. That really feels like at this point. And i can see how she's just like fucking sick of this. Yeah she's as christ you know and so sort of an hour later. She tries to have lunch and she ends up puking she goes straight to the infirmary and she can't keep any food down for days like all. She drinks his gatorade. They have to help her to the bathroom like she can't move around on her own. It's sort of a mix of heat exhaustion and just this explosion of stress. It's basically her whole body is just shut down from everything building up over the last two years she stays there. You know. Tuesday it's wednesday. It's thursday and this is the first week of school and the whole kind of point of this first week is for everybody to bond with each other. There's all these logistical rules and here is her company. She's in and they're all doing all this stuff without her and by the time. Friday rolls around. She's just like fuck it. I'm gonna leave. And she notifies the school officials and the vp of the school. Says if you need to know the presses around. There's a back door if you need to go out the back door. And she says i'm going to walk out the way i came in with my head held high. What shannon says later. She's very consistent about this. She says she was becoming increasingly disillusioned with this entire process but her lawyers needed her to keep going for the court case. Because you need the president right like britney spears in the nineties yes. She talks about the night before first day of school. She gets in this like screaming match with the acl you. Because they want to sell bumper stickers. Not necessarily her face on them in some way alluding to her case. And she's like you're getting all this fame and like what's happened to my life. Since the beginning of this case yeah lawyers also understandably are like this is about something bigger than shannon and we need to open the door for all women and we need to push forward with this case and so just the incentives of the plaintiffs in these cases in the incentives of the lawyer's trying. These cases are just completely out of whack with each other. I think our legal system is really weird and it really relies on spectacle and. I think that's bad. I don't know i mean. I feel as if she has subjected herself to this hostility for this long to lake. Succeed in infiltrating this place and now she has and that was the goal. Yeah and also. It's been two and a half years since you read that application. I mean i keep thinking about you know. Where are you as a junior in college versus where you are as a freshman in college and you deserve to have a young adulthood. Yeah and also. She's been at the school for two years and people have not been particularly welcoming to her flight. Went is making up for all the awful stuff that they have like a really great art gallery or something rock climbing wall like dance through no and also says later that she had no idea what she was getting into. Never imagine to that like this thing is going to keep going this long. And also that it's going to be this big either when she filled out that trolley application even when she filed a lawsuit she never thought she was going to be getting recognized at her job. And you know death threats now. This is just a lot to put one person's shoulders especially a twenty year old. Yeah so we're gonna watch a clip pre two one. Go talk to shannon about her history-making struggle. Do you feel that you were naive in your approach to this whole situation. Do you feel you're naive. I was very night when i started this. Because i grew up in the believing in the american dream that i could do anything and be anything and then i discovered this type of discrimination and nineteen ninety three and i didn't believe that it still you wanted to get in there because you wanted to fight discrimination against women and wanted a good education for yourself. You knew that you were being set up so to speak as as this sort of bastion for women. I didn't realize at the time. I do hindsight fighting to get in. That was going to be a statement for yourself and you would be the first woman and all that comes along with that you wanted to say you can sit there and tell america never once dawned on you that you wouldn't be carrying the weight of what's going to come for every other woman after you. I don't you know. I understand the stress degree a military wife but i cannot believe in my heart of hearts that you truly wanted this badly as you portrayed it to the media that the citadel was the only place for you when you can after two days. Say i quit. You would not stay late in the military if you quit so quick easily. I believe that. I handled everything to my best ability. Best of your ability at this time at this time because it is it has taken two and a half years of hell of death. Threats of people vandalizing my parents home of people making threats against my parents about their jobs about everything. I i think i handled it just as good as i could have at this time at this time. What do you think that was intense. Man dude sucked. I know i know oprah's not a great listener. It's great you're talking oprah and you're like so this thing she's like so. I'm going to summarize what you just said to me. And then bank of stuff and act like you said it. It's not not really and she's like no but it is right right like and then someone from the audience insult to you. This is like a little slice of what fucking lexus. Nexus was like dude. This is the narrative that forms immediately afterwards is shannon let the side down shannon is making all women look bad faakye i know shannon is a bad feminist. She's a bad woman. Why couldn't she see it through so she so yes like men and women both hate her. Yes women hate her because she's making us look bad in front of the men. Men are going to use this to hate us even more and it's like why not be mad at the men. This is like that thing about like. There was so much crush around sally ride when she went into space because if she didn't do a good job than it was proof that women couldn't be in space and it was like she needed to prove that women could do something and it's like i really blame the society that creates this false idea that like a woman needs to prove that all women are able to do this or that and if she fails or accuses not to or whatever then that just means that women are deprived outright forever. I know the new york times publishes this entire article on basically how families feel weird about shannon faulkner quitting one of the opening paragraphs it says in chicago terry heartfelt there twenty four the day manager at casey's tavern said this just leaves the impression of female hysteria of women saying give me this. Give me this. And they can't take it. I'm tired of women like her representing my gender. She's no no. She demand the right to represent her genders. Who's me cokie roberts on. Abc says she has done a great. Disservice i mean you're gonna be a pioneer you gotta get on the covered wagon and go across the country and be a pioneer. A lot of those people died. Cokie fights cholera so right. After shannon leaves the citadel one of the main explanations for why she quit was that she was too out of shape to do the physical training which isn't true. there's a student quoted in catherine main goals book. He says the truth was right in front of everyone but nobody mentioned it because it didn't fit the popular theme. There is no doubt shannon was overweight but did anyone bother to investigate how many other knobs came to the citadel overweight as well in that class. Yeah did anyone bothered. Find out that you can graduate from the citadel and never meet those requirements that anyone bothered to take notice that all she did that morning was just knob stuff at the book. Store certainly not. The truth would have detracted from the clarity of the story being put forth. Yeah somehow shannon is the villain of all this rather than like the school being terrible and not allowing in women in the first place. Who is she's like she she sleeping this place. Is this reeling wounded animal. And then you know to prove that they're still above her on this imaginary and sexist hierarchy all these women who are trying to be not like other women are like our our our our our. It's not clear to me why it's so rare to find basic statements of solidarity from anybody. Whoa this is kind of a theme of the nineties. You know and i think like one of the themes of tonya harding's life is that everything happened for her at exactly the wrong time like late enough that there is this mass media apparatus that could make absolute mincemeat of her entire life but it was too early for there to be kind of voices questioning these mainstream assessments and also she wasn't really defended by mainstream feminism at the time because they're what we were living in this time of backlash right. Thank you did see a lot of really horrible. Takes by women about maligned women in the news. That were like well she just like. I'm not like her. We're not like her don't you. Just based on her yeah. I also think that there's something in the media to where i think men were also very terrible to her but like that's not as interesting of a story for the media true. Yeah if you read the letters to the editor that were published in various newspapers that you come across and lexis nexis. It feels like seventy five to eighty percent of them are from women and it does feel like there's a sort of man bites dog element to like. The women are to her. We'll but maybe it also feels like less cruel in a way because like it feels like you're not showing someone punching down. Yeah yeah this is a long quote. But i think very good. This is the end of susan. Faludi article this is the paradox. That shannon faulkner was trying in her way to counter. Women are only allowed to solidarity and spree decor of the women's movement when they are defeated a constant refrain of ms. faulkner's opponents was that she was a stalking horse. Feminism each of these women was accused of being upon in some grand and malevolent conspiracy. They weren't they fought alone but let them fail or proved to be only human and the women's movement must take the hit but his shannon faulkner stood before the press last week. She shared with us. Her feminist epiphany when generally doesn't dawn on most women until much later in life making a lone woman star is not the same as advancing women's equality in fact it is counterproductive. Faulkner said. I really hope that next year a whole group of women will be going in because maybe it would have been different if there had been other women with me. As i heard that remark it occurred to me that she had received a citadel education. After all she had grasped the only aspect of the citadel. Teaching that really matters there is strength in numbers solidarity counts This is so important for the structure of social movements. Right is that when somebody becomes a symbol of something. Everything lives or dies on the strength of that one symbol. Yeah it's like well you know we thought women having equality to men was cool but it turns out shannon faulkner got heat stroke but this one lady fucked it up for everybody forever so by levin and well. I feel like it's a story that like allows you to respond. Who it be like. I'm not a sexist. but this is going too far total and then to lake get. Your sexist is out without feeling like you are being sexist which a lot of people need to do. Yes apparently and so. I told you the story has a happy ending. You did almost exactly a year. After shannon drops out of the citadel the supreme court strikes down sex discrimination. it's called united states versus virginia. And they talk about it as basically brown v board of education for gender so like one. Wow like the newsies and yet she still remembered as like. Do not read the comments on the fucking clip. That i sent you by the way fuck. Everyone sleep the following year. There's four female. Cadets are admitted to the citadel two of them eventually dropout in sued the school for sexual harassment because of the fucked up shit that happened to them. I'll bet they do. And this is dark. The first graduate of the citadel. Her name is nancy mace and she's a republican congresswoman now and she ran donald trump's campaign in south carolina. There's a thing in two thousand eighteen. Where shannon is invited to the campus to give a talk and she refers to herself she says like in heart i will always consider myself a citadel alumni. Cool yes of course. She does whatever. And then nancy. Mace writes on facebook like we. Don't valorize failure. I don't have anything to do with her. She shouldn't be talking like that. She didn't get the ring. And it's like nancy. Just be nice. Oh i don't know me out. You're like man using facebook. As a forum for pettiness. I can't the citadel now has ten percent of admissions are women who they still have how we they do but they call it challenge week. Now pavelec softened. Oh they also. Apparently there's a citadel float at the charleston gay pride parade every year like. The school is sort of starting to thaw out that in a way. That's fostering salmonella. They're just doing this thing that institutions always do for the obviously. It's good to have women here. Obviously and it's like this is what you fought against for three years and twenty million dollars. Difference to history means indifference. To whose fault things are. I know also like people's as you can see is really often conflated with their lawyers and that's a real highlight of these these media kasai also. I know it's like these debates. Leave this residue. We remember shannon faulkner pushy and oversensitive. And she didn't want to shave her head. We remember all the stuff but then we forget the fact that she was fucking correct and the school is now saying that. That was the right decision and history and the law have proven her right and yet robbed her credit for any of it right and so another happy ending to the story is like shannon his fine so she ended up transferring to other colleges and graduating on time. There's an author pat conroy. Who wrote a bunch of really famous novels. Including the prince of tides who is a citadel graduate. And he quietly paid. For shannon's education awesome people flowers and pay for their college. This is like true allies. Yup yeah and she's now a seventh grade english teacher at school in greenville south carolina wall. She seems happy. She does these sort of where they now interviews. She talked to oprah again a couple of years later and she talks about how with frustrating. How she's been erased because people only remember the one week that she was at the citadel. They don't remember the two. And a half years of her life that she spent at the citadel and in courtroom and so i want to end with a shannon quote. This is from an interview that she gives to the ap in two thousand eighteen. They're asking her about her legacy. And how she feels about the fact of the citadel now has women going there shannon says every girl who walks in there whether she stays for one day or all four years. She has one. I love shannon. I know. I'm happy that i learned about this. Kiss for the sake of learning about it and i also feel like it's great object lesson and like if you're forcing someone to do something for the first time all by themselves than like think about why. Perhaps you might be attempting to doom. Her to failure the circumstances you're asking to succeed under yes and we don't like people that are seen to be pushing so the nineties were bad and people who pay for other people's college are dope paper. Some college college. Perhaps you can any woman who has been made fun of on a bumper sticker those people.

shannon shannon faulkner south carolina Susan faludi michael kimmel Aclu charleston jon benet ramsey america bennigan citadel Mr faulkner marmi volleyball sarah harry de la roche harry norman poindexter sarah marshall Harry delaroche
Episode 127:  Jess Hill with a Domestic Violence 101 Primer and What to Do About It

en(gender)ed

1:40:36 hr | 9 months ago

Episode 127: Jess Hill with a Domestic Violence 101 Primer and What to Do About It

"Either podcast listeners welcome to engendered the show that features stories that explore the systems, practices and policies that enable gender-based violence and oppression. And the solutions to end it. We used gender as a lens to understand power and oppression teach feminism and decolonized hearts and minds. One story at a time. Gender sponsored by Candu. It Spelled K. N. D. U. I T. and I'm your host Terry. You're in. This. Episode of the engendered podcast or guesses just hill an investigative journalist who's been researching and writing about domestic violence twenty fourteen we speak with just today about her book newly released in the US called. See what you made. Me Do the dangers of domestic abuse that we ignore explain away or refuse to see which offers primer on the gendered nature. Of Violence the ways in which society enables and excuses meal entitlement to power over and the normalization and a razor of men's violence against women in our media and Discourse Justin I also delve into a systems approach to confronting preventing abuse, including examining proposals for criminal justice reform such as women's policing the hi point model and a justice reinvestment model in Australia. Walk Jess. Terry so nice to have you back again, and you're the first guess that we've had on the show that's coming back and I wanted to make sure that our guests have an opportunity to be aware of the fact that your book that was released last year now is in the US. Yeah yet took ages to rewrite it too. So I do hope that it finds some raiders was about six months replacing every statistic replacing stories analysis you know. Let's get started with the book itself. Why did you have to rewrite it? I actually thought was perfect and I didn't understand why we need to have US statistics when this issue is so universal and crosses boundaries. Should've told my publisher now because I think that what my publisher was was wanting and they'll they'll pretty good like they left a lot of the content as as because as you saying, it's it's totally internationally relevant and it was written that in mind. But I think that what we wanted to do is make sure that when Americans were reading this that they didn't sort of thing all wow Australia has a really bad problem and because they want so many Americans districts in there somehow think that that problem did not apply in the same way in the states so I I didn't WanNa be that cognitive disconnect where you have to sort of imagine I will if it's that bad strike. May Be. It sump Llano in America just wanted it to raid as though it was written specifically for an American audience and I I figured that the time that it took to really personalize that was worth it. Okay. With regard to English speaking countries the US Canada. Britain Australia. What's the comparison in terms of the rates of domestic abuse I would think that because of our guns here that is probably more serious here than anywhere else. In and I haven't done the calculation in my head to scale like whether on parody it's assignment three women being killed every day in the states. This is one woman awake in Australia. So we said at like twenty one times the number of people being killed in Australia. United. Have Twenty, one times population we've got twenty, five, million, give or take. You've got over three hundred million. So yes, just on the back of the envelope that you definitely have a more intense homicide problem since vonts women act was introduced in the nineties. A great deal of domestic abuse actually did reduce a minute did have quite a reductive fix in states that bending credible. Funding Package and. A the galvanizing of the system into that one act. That's a terrible results that it's still that high end as racial away snot wrote about in her book visible bruises you know guns are absolutely at the center of it as you say and Australia, we had a massacre in ninety, ninety six. That was the worst we'd have had in Tasmania and our Prime Minister Saad put restrictions on guns immediately and guns were bought back. They were handed in was a lot of resistance from farmers and other people who were. Avid gun owners but it's dry just was absolutely resolute that this was not going to be something that we that we saw happen time and time again. But the NRA is so powerful in your country that it feels like no matter how bad the gets is very little movement on guns. Well I think that also is tied to you've mentioned, of course, Patriarchy and male entitlement, but also the intersection with capitalism, and so all of these vested economic interests are very powerful in the US and they certainly do have a lot of influence in terms of lobbying in terms and regulating and creating policy that gives them the freedom to continue to make profit at the expense of human life. Yeah and not only that it's really it's the it's that American eighth also individual freedoms and this idea that you know that's polite. So neatly into neoliberalism, which is about the the success of the individual, the freedom, an agency of the individual but more and more the expensive the group, and I think you know what? You often get a bit of stick from your neighbors up north in Canada is that the the general sense in Canada is much more of collective identity collective success whereas in America, the idea of collective success is it gets it gets misbranding has socialism. Yeah, and It's unfortunate because that tension between individualism and collectivism is actually obviously having lots of harm right now and exacerbating the gender impact of Covid in the US terms of people's willingness or rejection wearing masks. That's a huge problem, the masculinity issue coming out and being tied to asserting individual rights and liberties, and just you know when you talked about socialism to I mean, there's just a lack of understanding of what these concepts are. Also there's I think a right wing propaganda machine that's also fueling a lot of the misinformation. Hundred percent and it's a very I mean, really when you look at it, look at the coal Prince School of Patriarchy in the core is had the right to have power over a but really the cool the principles of masculinity, which is the highest, the highest expression. The Patriarchy is autonomy independence. The idea that one is separate from Abbas and one must pursue ends and goals with like malaria. Thought to you had affect other people, and then if you're thinking about how you affect other people that's like feminine or it's wake, which are unfortunately synonyms in being patriotic mindset and I think that that starts to you really see that expressed through the guns issue on said, he say that expressed through the reluctant absolute like resistance to wear to wear a mosque and worse to go to. Parties where you infect one another. Like. Type of I guess sickness at the core of American culture that appointing one better supreme, court justice or Fixing. Bits and paces is probably not going to resolve until there's a real reckoning with the extreme masculine this culture that America has and that's all decided that it's extremely macho extremely misogynous, but it's extremely separate and that whole thing of American. exceptionalism is wrapped up in that and interesting coming from Australia. Having. RELEASABLE KIA last year, and obviously releasing the book into America as an Australian is already difficult because like I'm coming from the colonies you. Whether I've got the interesting say takes a lot more moving up and an end. A time of it is just America is obviously going through a lot right now. So it's hard to get attention on anything but I really feel that that lack of importance of women's issues in the states and the lack of unity in an momentum around it. Now, Australia's got a divided domestic violence sector. It's got lots of things that a pretty characteristic of this of this type of work all around the world, but we have a lot of momentum here and there's a lot more people carrying about odds against women here and have been for the past five years whereas. An can think of the top of my head four or five journalists in country of twenty, five million also who specialize in reporting on that, and I can only think of that many in the states off the top of my head and I paid pretty close attention. So I find that astounding. And that lack of attention to women's issues and gender equality I think has been exacerbated with justice GINSBURG. Passing last Friday because there's been this huge increase of at least post online and social media and Of, online, groups popping up very quickly in response to quote unquote preserving her legacy. And and I have to say, well, I mean, obviously, I'm very sad that she's passed but maybe this will actually wake up some women to the fact that we don't have gender equality because we're such a pivotal point where the proposed candidate to replace her literally from like a cult like religion that was the inspiration for the handmaid's tale who believes that wives should defer to their husbands and make no decisions whatsoever. You know it's literally that much of a throwback to the dark ages. So it's sad that it takes this much to actually hopefully wake people up. To how close do you need to come to the brink anime watch from this distance with slightly restraint Hora and it's easy to watch other people's. Issues and problems we have with our on think we would do things differently, but we have a Lotta blind spots in Australia. So on knock climbing any sort of superiority he, it's very different when you've got that this type of physical distance from where it's all happening and mental distance look if anything if anything is needed to galvanize people to either come out to vote or to drag the people out to vote and that than if Ginsberg's death is what really makes the difference and get people energized about Biden in a why that may be. Just in terms of their philosophies and how they feel about him personally or politically I don't necessarily feel that energetic compared to someone like Santa's been like, thank God thank God. But I was saying to my husband likes. How many examples there where say for example, like a star, a situation like Germany was in nineteen, thirty two doesn't turn into nineteen thirty, three Germany doesn't turn into nineteen, thirty, nine Germany like how many examples in the world do we have all the country on the brink of absolutely descending into despotism where they just pull it back at the last minute? Many some you know this there's some example that in Latin America. Okay. Fingers crossed. Full. Full you're giving me some hope. So that with that, let's delve into some of the areas of your book that I'm GonNa be repetitive because the first time when we spoke, we didn't get a chance to talk about everything and this time I. Think we're going to try to go into the areas that we didn't touch upon more deeply. So the first is just the archetypes of an abuser, and if you could start there with describing the difference between a coercive controller and how you would define a regular domestic abuser. It was really difficult like we've talked before about the fact that it would be great if there was some sort of like objective test, you could give to abuse if people to really united say you've hit in his caravan years in that category. But as it is all, we can do observe behaviors inside a particular relationship and sort of come to. Conclusions based on those behaviors, but often someone might start off as as much more low grade sort of minor offender, and then in the next relationship, become a full on cost control law. So it's not like a particular type of people. It's more types of behaviors in terms of the relationship and what emerges inside that. So I'm really talk about. For want of a better term, it's not a perfect turn but I wanted to talk about those more low-grade offenders as insecure reactors, and basically what I mean by that is that not all perpetrators are enforcing these tight regimes of control and so these men who I would say at the low end of the power and control spectrum. Not completely subordinating apartments, but they are they do use emotional or physical abuse in order to gain power in the relationship and I might do that to get an advantage in an argument or. Get things that they feel they're entitled to to establish a an atmosphere in the relationship where it's easier for the partner justice sort of like compromise etc. But it's not coercive control in the sense that it is not the overarching architecture with so many different things as slotting into place, which will discuss in a moment to make the woman basically almost lose the sense of who they are. To feel absolutely trapped in a talk of abuse that really never switches off. So this insecure actors like one guy that I use as an example of this is called Nick who I met when he was on a a restraining order WHO's at just at the back end of a twelve month restraining order he'd been arrested after he shot his wife out of bed during an argument and. It was the first time he'd been physically violent towards her certainly didn't think of himself as an abuser and he actually said to the police I'm not a criminal as loading him into the police van and then when he got to the men's behavior change program, he really understood aw sorts of things the language I was using derogatory language that was abusive and basically where he Got Too was a sense that I really want to make amends I. Didn't realize that I was just spraying stop at my wife what effect it was having and I wanNA prove to her that I can be better. Now I can say just from the people that he interacts with WHO recommended I speak to him he was not sort of you know orchestrating a campaign of control of his. That doesn't mean that he wasn't causing great Hamad Trauma. I'm not suggesting that you know these guys who I put it in the insecure reactive category I'm not harmful or somehow just garden variety abuses they can end up killing Hamas. But they sort of more likely to be quite disarray regulated. They don't really they might have had violent backgrounds themselves. I got these issues around intimacy and they've never really learned how to communicate and they quite frustrated by that and so they lash out. So it's much more of a reactive type of violence or abuse. Whereas coercive control, this is the kind of controlling abuse. It's really rooted in historical imbalance of power, and what you're looking at is a campaign is either sub-conscious acquired avert on behalf of the perpetrator through which they're basically trying to create a patriarchy in miniature in the household to court Evan Stock. So they're not just using abuse to hurt accumulate departments in the moment as a way of like just gaining strategic advantage in a fight. Using particular techniques like ice isolation, gas, slotting, micromanagement of behavior, surveillance, degradation threats, inducing ability exhaustion through things like gas sliding, or juicing the into substance abuse keeping them awake at night all sorts of techniques which basically a road, the victims sensible Tony absolutely reduce her her area of freedom and basically end up almost replacing hookups perspective without of the Petrova. Because little things that happened within coercive control little things but pots of course of control can be enforcing trivial demands and even. Just that one pot of it when the woman is constantly having to second guess what her partner is going to ask for and then punish if it is not done been, it just makes sense. Almost vacate your own mind and try to see the world through the the perpetrator everything about who has control even down to in the cycle of violence. Top relationships with actually is a there are apologies and remorse that alternating punishments with rewards is actually part of the system of abuse. And I'm not saying that necessarily the perpetrator does that on purpose although some dudes actually very highly narcissistic or always says she pathak tops but even instinctively someone who wants to override someone else's autonomy knows they have to pull back occasion occasionally and remind that person that is a reason that they should stay with them. Like instinctively, they know that if they just abuse unrelentingly that that person's more likely to try to escape. So if you if you just occasionally show up as the person they fell in love with, you'll just keep that sort of hope spring alive enough to keep that person in the relationship and to keep them from saying what's really happening to them, and that's a book that basically course of Control as magicians working slot of hand drake's that make the abuse invisible and that's why I'm more than half of women who experienced this. Of course, it happens in same sex relationships to and to a minority of men in heterosexual relationships but more than half of women who experience I don't even know. That they being abused because they're so busy trying to figure out what on earth is happening because it's absolutely a lot of the time. It's Jekyll and Hyde talk behavior trying to figure out what can I fix in myself to stop this happening all what can I fix this person knew I love and who seems to have just like turn on a dime or is sorry different to who I I men scholley. There's a way to return that person to the way that used to be an while they're trying to figure that out. It's very difficult to Cape clear I on the fact that this person is actually ruining your life and endangering your life and Ben potentially a children's well. Is there a way I mean, I've had this conversation recently with several people who including Evan. with regard to quantify coercive of control given. The fact that we're not, we're not collecting data on it. Is there a way to actually put a number on it? Can we say at least with heterosexual relationships where there's abuse intimate partner violence that because of the impact of male violence against women in those relationships one hundred of percent of them are coercive controlling because there's a impact that exacerbates gender inequality is that is is there a way to say that or? They'd be different opinions on that I presently think that when we talk about course control and I really sort of anatomy, is it in the book into these eight techniques behaviors I think we have to sort of stay loyal to the the idea of the system. Of course, it controls obviously an oil abuse and is going to be controlling. And there is obviously going to be the impact of further gender equality, less financial independence for the woman at Cetera et Cetera. But when it comes to actual course control when I see someone who's engaging in actual of control versus someone who is other like has had a one off way they've been a bit of a shit. Her, you know some of the relationship they hit wants, but there's not the system where the women's like lost sense of who she is always she is being turned against her friends of turned against to told stop working or having her wages and benefits taken from her. I. Think there is even though it's all on the same spectrum and it's hot site where one ends in one begins I think that sometimes you can look at our relationship in guy now, that's not really cohesive control. That's that's a that's a shitty abusive relationship what what Michael Johnson would call situational couple violence, but it's not going to the extent of course control and it needs. A different response so I remember even had in in Somerset's that he did. He'd sort of estimated it to be about sixty to eighty percent of women who seek help have experienced coercive control. But an thinking you know if you speak anecdotally to the frontline services, they'll tell you that most of the women that they deal with described that same system that it is far fewer women coming in move just had someone who has been a bit of Shit and abusive on and off and as I say it is very difficult to be very clear about who is abusive on often the eyes of victim who is actually engaging in an ongoing system but. Generally speaking when women have to like actually Ray Chapa services and make that giant leap of trust to engage police would missy sector. Doing that because it's gotten pretty bad. So yeah, I would say that just from what I hear I think it's reasonable to assess that the vast majority of women who seek help experience course control. And when you used the term situational couple violence is that the same as high conflict? Yeah. I guess again, Gray area where it's like yet high conflict might come into that I think the way that Michael Johnson would define it is that there has got to be sound kind of violence expressed in not. So probably not just degrading comments or that sorts of things. But yeah, it's those you know really hideous relationships that Luke, some of the absolutely could co police to they may be like a serious physical incident assay. It can also escalate to homicide because it may be that something happens this very dis- regulated person absolutely overreacts in the moment and ends up killing their pop up. So it's not like it's not dangerous, but to put it this way. Seventy eight out of seventy, nine domestic homicides in the last two years in state that I live in new. South. Wales Australia had coercive control present before the homicide was committed. So ninety nine percent of those homicides were preceded by control and what we know is that coercive control is a the most dangerous foam abuse. It is just as much an indicator of future homicide as. Something like strangulation which is another sort of real precursor that we look for now. So when I see relationships that really predicated on control on domination on isolation and where the perpetrator especially when they same paranoid naty shamed easily humiliated, that's where I might my hackles really go up in that the big red flags to me of the most dangerous kind of relationship and perpetrator. The reason I asked about the situational couple violence is because one of the. Trying to debunk some of the myths around domestic abuse and. I think for the most part, most of the people that I am connected to in the advocacy community recognized that those are two distinct situations that when I was in domestic violence chaining the example that was given is the Michael Douglas Film, the war of the roses where we're both both people were vying for power, but there was no no sense of domination and intimidation and fear where one had a high hierarchy of power and and so that obviously led to both of them dying at the end of the film but that high conflict should not be conflated with domestic abuse and course of control where there's a power imbalance because anger management. May. Apply to situational couple violence or high conflict, but certainly not in power and control situation. So like couples counseling for a situational sort of situation, forbid of one of a better word. May Be. Appropriate As, you say because the power balance is not there, it's not necessarily being exploited by one person in a situation where the other partner is at a severe disadvantage and saw a absolutely the way you define is absolutely gills with what I understand the situational couple violence, sometimes high conflicts. terminologies used in the context of family court. So it sort of stories me in this the problem with these terms is they can mean different things to different people, but you know and I think that it's important to recognize also that some people will look at. And there is a heat or a slap or kick unless I will bet is domestic browns and not wrong that is an assault but each not on the same level as control and it would not be brought to say, for example, describe that as intimate terrorism, you know when people say we shouldn't call a domestic violence we shouldn't call it megabits we should call it intimate terrorism my all that captures coa control, but it doesn't capture situational violence and let's face it. If you're a police officer, you're dealing with birth. Bright. So in the one context, the situational couple violence might be considered domestic abuse from a legal perspective because there's the abuse laws, but it doesn't necessarily equate to domestic abuse from the understanding of the power imbalance. Exactly, and that's why we get these sort of miss ratings about so-called gender equality in domestic violence and we end you get to that dot us saying that women can be just as much violence or even just as much extreme violence as men obviously with lesser impact on the male victim because that saying imagine but because and this is what Michael worked. Out in the nineties is that the group that's claiming gender equality was looking at the surveys that really look at situational couple violence they count the hits in slaps in the kids but they don't get any context around what those acts main, what was the context and how severe was that hit or slap depending on what had happened before and what happened off. was that he will slab a warning shot at said if you do this again, I'll kill you a was it. I'm just like I'm just trying to get you away from me because you're you're annoying me you know like those very different context around a particular assault and a lot of the conflict tech scale surveys won't get the context around what that actual act meant and as you get as sort of gender equal results. But then you go to the police or the FBI or the women's services and what they dealing with much more is the women who seek help who have more overarching. Louis. Experienced have control and started that. So that fight between those two sort of areas between the gender equal people on the people that say it's predominantly male perpetrators that just using different data and say, it's not to say that the other daughter is wrong. Yes. They are counting the kicks in the slaps but as as one. Put it. A hit is not necessarily hit. There are all different ways in which hits main more depending on the language that has been established between the perpetrator and the victim tried of that hit. So yeah, I mean a Michael Kimmel who's done a lot of work on this he said this abstract perspective where you just count the hits in the slaps without putting any context around it's like saying you know between nineteen fourteen and nineteen eighteen millions of men died but failing to tell people that's because of. World War is just like they just happened to die. Right but there's a reason why so many men don at that time and that's what we don't get through the surveys is. What was the impacts of that of that Kinkel that slap? Basically. What you're saying is that the data of women's violence against men has been interpreted in a way where situational violence in coercive control are being conflicted. But if we look at it separately, the coercive control data supports that women are predominantly the victims of those kinds of abuse and that they are more severely harmed than men. Precisely and not to mention the fact, and this is what Johnson also pointed out and I found that this was the same in the Australian said `I result in our equivalent results, the personal safety survey, and that is that you know the way that they do these surveys is that they will go and speak to a person in Austin these questions directly have you experienced. Physical. Sexual. Violence in the last twelve months was that etc, and what are Michael Johnson pointed out is that you often see like non responders percentage of people who refused to respond to that survey. Any said that's why you've got the course control hiding because if you are a victim of course if control, it is usually absolutely implicit either you've been threatened not to say anything. Or your need to be loyal to the perpetrator would be that you would not answer questions from a stranger asking about that. So he's point was some of these surveys pickup on course of control situations at all and that you're going to pick up mostly just the situational couple violence and of course, I mean, it just sort I in the population situational couple violence is reasonably. Common people get in really souped up rows people get drunk people get high and they overreact in the situation but inside that relationship that every action that slap all that he may not actually be a really serious event or maybe that it's so serious that never happens again and it certainly not necessarily preceded by degradation and threats and isolation it could literally just ban overreaction all. The Great Light Ellen Pence said some of this type of situation violence literally may be sold if the substance abuse problem is solved like it may not be an attitudinal problem, it may actually be an addiction problem, which is still considered a radical position. Now, the idea that you would that you would take care of someone's problems and see if that alleviated the violence because it's it's it's GonNa, be much about their attitudes and then you know whether they misogynists so not. But this isn't really complex area and you've really got a look at the exact behaviors that you dealing in order to diagnose how to fix them. I think another issue that was mentioned in the data chapter was the fact that if the survey respondents didn't understand what course of control was and didn't grasp but there's there's a sense of connection that what they were experiencing was a form of abuse. They were not going to be able to respond in the affirmative and so that data wasn't being captured as well. Not to mention the fact that you know as been stopped points out loud in a lot of coercive control relationships. Physical is are the Mina or it doesn't occur at all, and certainly you can have some of the most horrific coercive if control relationships one document in the book between Biblical Jessica Nelson. After the baby was born, he forced her to sleep in the car with a newborn baby would only invite her back into the house. To do housework to have sex with him where he would travel interstate to golfing has sex with other women in return back with videos of him, doing that and make Jasmine Watch, and all of this was held together by his campaign of degradation in which he only referred to her as loss and tried to take the baby to do that and also threatened to kill her baby or have friends and family. If for example, when she was sleeping in the cost, she went to her mother's house. So in this story, there was very, very little physical violence until there was a major assault, but if she was surveyed. said in the last twelve months of experience physical sexual violence she would have said no because she hadn't. Right, and in the US, there's famously Laura Richards dirtyjohn podcast episode is a real story. There was no physical violence until the very end when there was an attack on the daughter. To kill obviously years and years of to psychological and emotional manipulation. Absolutely and that's the thing is that you know while there is about half women who don't even realized being abused on until the penny drops at some point. There are also equally a number of women who know exactly how dangerous that pepper trader is. Osso tracked because of the threats because of the feeling of the auto loss of dignity and self esteem that they won't be able to find a life outside of this or that even if they try something be harmed that you know that they love that those people know how dangerous they perpetrator is. But. They find it so hard to get help because in a lot of areas outside the UK, particularly a lot of those sorts behaviors and not criminalized if even if you're restricting your partners liberty taking their wages and benefits isolating them them in the House, etc there's very little recourse from the criminal justice system, and if you go to the police me too often the responses will we really can't do anything come back when he hits you I mean literally police say that and so you've got these women who are just like sitting ducks just waiting to some way to prove what they going through and knowing all the time just how dangerous that person is it's really acceptable. By the time, this interview comes out this video that I'm going to refer to. We'll have been released. Have you heard that an England there? They did a PSA on course of control and it's called timekeeper as a twenty minute PSA. Have you heard about that? I heard yeah was that made by? Chris gone one I think so. Yeah, I just got tagged in something about it but I'm not watched. It's amazing. I was able to get a copy and one part where there was an insinuation violence. It wasn't clear and I wish that they had taken that out because it was so powerful without it but there was a part in terms of the degradation where the abuser poured milk on the floor. And the the wife wipe it up, and then he would just keep pouring. You know she'd be on her knees wiping it up, and at some point you know he poured it on her head and none of those behaviors are all. Right. So if you were in that situation, you can't tell the police report milk on me. That sounds so innocuous. Exactly and that's the problem that you and because. A lot of victims, of course, have control a living in this state of confusion and contradiction an extreme threat trying to make handle tile of what is happening to them. It's really hard for the often to explain what is happening. So if someone came in from outside, walked into that sane and sore it without any alliance to either person that they would watch that and go oh, my God that's disgusting like she needs help ride but the person inside it is often rationalizing it. They may be trying to protect the feelings of the are making it look like it's not harming. Than they may be trying to protect their dignity by looking even like laughing through it all sorts of ways in which women are trying to make it. Okay to just make it so that it's not absolutely destroying the dignity incentive agency, not absolutely reducing them and where they can feel like that the that there's some sense of their resistance in May. It's very difficult for them to go into a police station and say, this is this this this happened because what really is threatening is the atmosphere and it's the particular look old the particular little thing that said and the woman knows. What that means but nobody else does. Yeah I did interview recently where I know so many protective mom. So I've heard all their stories and I'm myself am one and but each time when you hear a new story, you still go through the process of kind of assessing the story. Even. Though of course, I come with open mind and believing them and the the way that this survivor described her experience because it was so much about the gas lighting and questioning Kerr reality in her interpretation of it as she was explaining, it was like this meandering and then her last statement was, and then my feeling was just a great sense of empathy towards him and I thought, wow, that's exactly how I experienced it. Where you end up, you know where the abuser makes himself seem like the victim in your like confused about all of the things that you experience. It's not even that you're rationalizing at you're you don't know how to process it, and then the manipulation is that you make. He's the one who gets the attention. He's the one who's been victimized, and so that keeps in the relationship because because of that construct well, I think that you know victims are really women who experienced They're they're really highly tuned to the promise. Shame. And that feeling of shame in the room is unbearable not just for the perpetrator who may try displays by getting power over and and and projecting that shame and feeling of do gradation onto their partner. But the feeling of shame in the room is really unbearable for the victim as well. So you go to make that person. Feel like, oh, it wasn't so bad or I understand you're constantly women are socialized to repayments shame I mean that's that's how we that's how research were rewarded. Full being relational for being good in relationship for being the one to be able to fix the problems and to attend to the man who often you know too often these guys darn have. To Express that bigotry failings that aren't have close male friends, they may not have close relationships with family so that you have to play the pot not only all lava in Patna Mata best friend etcetera, and also just like someone on whom they can unleash all this frustration shame anger entitlement to POW. It's like you have to contain at all and a lot of women I think that you know. What we don't talk about enough in terms of what makes a woman vulnerable to being staying in a relationship like this is selfless empathy the actually it's the selfless empathy of women that and this is awful to think about, but it actually makes them more likely to want to be with someone. Once they start showing old as red flags to want to try to fix them it's just going spunk off. I don't want any bodies. And that's. What I've been really talking about with people in Australia is that you know as much as yes we've calls we want like young girls to be fully embodied in strength and empowered et Cetera but I know plenty of women who have who have actually felt themselves to be the stronger personal relationship in the best drink was what was going to fix it and they can almost get hubristic about it like. I alone will be out of fix the situation. So my thing is like what we really need to try to build into goals from a young age. So love to empathy from physician of self love not selflessness and an absolute allegiance to their own independence I totally agree with you, and that's actually why our next book in our book club for the engendered collective is Bell Hooks Book Communion About Cellphone. Such a genius on understand how during the whole May to movement and everything that has happened conversations around patriarchy. Where is billhooks? Why is she not just being relaunched onto the world stage? Is this mega superstock is before me when I read her books when I read things like the will to change, you know I'm like this is it. This is the closest to actual understanding actual honesty actual empathy with both men and women but what Patriach does to us both? It's just transcendent and it's better than anything else that I've read just wondering where is she? I totally agree like her her trilogy loves series IT Gift Everybody read that and followed it. Let's get to another myth before we get to interventions, which is what I want to talk about next this other myth that men who abuse you know have an anger management problem and and you pose to archetypes the pit bull and the Cobra. So can you talk about that? Yeah for want of better terms. As. Usual like every time that we have to describe this is really Inadequate and certainly I refrained from certainly labeling pepetrators covers people's because I think it's dehumanizing. That's probably actually where a lot of detritus hide behind that the humanizing language but I included the analysis of people uncovers in the book because I was trying to get to a sense of how have researches tried to illustrate the perpetrators not all the same. You know how they gone about this and so in the nineties, there were three psychology professors, doctors, John, Goldman and Neil Jacobson and they had this thing called the love lab. I know doing all sorts of research but they did a particularly such experiment on on what ended up being about sixty three also control. Is and hotness. So they actually connected both people in the Koppel to polygraph machines so that they could record hot rate respiration blood pressure, and then they also had a coating shameful certain language languages like it was a pretty hot takes setup, and then they got them into the lab and basically Austin defies which is a pretty extreme experiments and one that I'm show you would not get past ethics committee is now and so they would basically Kinda Kinda crunching the daughter on these sixty three couples and enemies couples the men had a history of controlling behavior. So it was clear that it was control that was that was at the core of this these dynamics. And what they found is that. About twenty percent of as men, instead of as they got more and more aggressive instead of the heart rate going up in the becoming more sweaty, all the physiological responses we expect. Their hot right actually went down the more aggressive I became in the lab and it actually drops to the point where internally they will more calm than when they've been asked to just sit and relax before they'll put in a lab and when they play the tapes of the this twenty percent of guys again again, what they found is that there was a particular. Type of response, these guys had that was different to the other eighty percent of men, and that was that they were observed to be more aggressive than more sadistic and they went from like zero to one hundred percent incredibly quickly and I guess that's why they call the Cobra is because it was the idea that they would odd shop and I would strike with really horrific. Proficiency and directness and what they had served as a studied these couples over time is that these men were more likely to be dangerous when they were about to be exposed but I didn't really have that much of an intimate attachment today partners. So they love a needed having someone to control, and I needed to set that up arrangement relationships but they weren't really that fast who that was by. Certainly were attached to the person once they had them because it's a lot of hogwash to get someone in that position, but it wasn't like they felt genuine sense of love for them, and then the other eighty percent of guys today they turn the pit bulls will much slow to anger but once they going, it was very hard to stop them and and of course, all the physiological responses what You'd expect as they got more aggressive that hot rights rose got sweaty sweatier etc and what they saw in the people's is that as opposed to the Cobra 's they were the top guys who were incredibly navy and attached to their partners very much describe as being passionately in love with authors but also boiling over resentment on any type of hatred towards them was like a type of hatred was. Artists for making them feel so vulnerable and the essentially as time went on, they observed these couples these guys with kind who would would more likely to store and potentially kill their partners off they'd left whereas the cobras is like more or less were pretty happy to let things go not all of them but like that would just move onto the next person it's just too hard to try to. Chase someone you don't really care about might as well, just go and find someone else. whereas. The People's will long-term much more. With much more dangerous interestingly, I think it was about three years later or several years later. Anyway, I looked at how many of these people were still together the so-called pit bulls in their wives a number of them had broken up and things were continuing in their own why there but not one of the Kaaba relationships have broken up and that's the sense that the women were absolutely terrified late because that point of leaving an exposure was the most dangerous point of all. So I think it's interesting in the sense that. These results really should be said have not been replicated novel labs and Dr Goldman said that is because of the labs haven't had the same equipment Cetera but this basic sort of dichotomy has been repeated in a Lotta typologies. Ami Holdsworth Monroe. Has the kind of like cold sociopathic type control la versus like the paranoid dismore fake. Type almost borderline personality disorder type of controller who is absolutely terrified that the partner is going to leave who is riddled with with shame and shoe who acts from that position of an absolute fear of humiliation and dumb retrial. That's why I. Thought even though that that hasn't been replicated incredible study in incredible tonight at twenty percent of these guys they hot right actually went down as they started attacking. But essentially, that's what we see more or less is that some may seem to be a bit of both and sound is absolutely that guy fit in that category at skype it's Agri. However. A judge trying to do that from the bench or a family report writer trying to do that in automating the two hours is a totally it's a very bad thing to believe that can do. Put it that way because it's very difficult to diagnose send. Even Amy Halts Monroe said she's really horrified when she sees judges using these typologies as a way to try to just like show. Guys. Onto here you're in this category you're in that category when they really saying only very little of their behavior. In terms of the cultural influences of these kinds of behaviors you know I. I wrote a piece earlier in the year where I referred to domestic abuse as having existed since the beginning of time. And one of my readers responded knows around it's actually not true is around. E C 'cause I was comparing racism and sexism. Sixteen nineteen in the US versus eight hundred. BC. You know still almost it almost since the beginning of time and it was interesting in your book how you described that current day domestic abuse actually had its cultural origins in Britain through the laws that regulated and were designed to protect marriage but not women, and so that was really interesting because I think it gives us hope that these social constructs they can be created, but they could also be dismantled. I opening as spending so much time riding the first nations chapter because it really gave me this entirely different perspective on the history of family violence, domestic abuse and how we've responded. But since Saif example is try and the United States would colonize and what sort of responses were prior to that as as best as we can understand, I mean, really there's always been a vulnerability to gender based violence and you see that in the storytelling and the midst and legends of. Bicycling all groups, and that includes indigenous strands who we can say with certainty that they've been here for at least sixty thousand years, and there's a story about the seven sisters who have to flee the sorcerer wadi narrow who's trying to write them who's led by his paintings is a very a very big role in that story and are various iterations of that story that is hold across stray by different nations. Essentially, what it tells us and we see the sort of like Yvonne Against Women's stories played out there often used as warnings as a sort of. Stories from mothers to Young Girls Grandmothers today granddaughters is that there has always been evolved ability to men's violence against women. It's about how you respond to that, and it's about what the group does in response to that. So say, for example, the talk response that I had was very much governed by the understanding that the health of the collective is the health of the individual is the. Health of the land that living in these all interconnected, and so they're law was very particular. It did not excuse the powerful at don't excuse the people with more influence that if a woman was raped or if a woman was abducted or if you know if a woman was abused, that is a particular response. So for example, when the British came in colonized Australia, something, that's very little talked about. Is that when they were often when they were massacres Elvin digital people by settlers along those masochists will preceded by an event that usually went like this. A white man came in abducted. An aboriginal woman will go took them away probably writes them, and then because there was absolutely no justice to be had for that white man, the traditional punishment would be made it out to him, which was often him to be killed. Over him to be attacked him to be speed whatever it was and the MEXICA would happen in response to that meeting out of traditional justice. So the line of sexual violence and how that affects mediated relationships trying to first nations and white settlers is absolutely critical to our understanding not only of colonization in how both nations will build. But also about the present day experience a family violence parthenon culture but also the the experience at first nations people have an what is really interesting because in the American book, really compare the experience of first nations women in states and in Australia what's fascinating and was completely surprising to me about north. America is that statistically speaking and this is an absolute. Anomaly, in crime stats, it's about ninety plus percent of native women, their perpetrators, domestic violence, non-native men, that's just shocking. So you can see in that statistic, what kind of systemic impunity has been built in, and you can also see a straight line from the sexual violence that was used against average on women and girls in the state's emphasis on native women and girls, and how that drawn a straight line through to the present day and what was so interesting to me as Australian because there's always been this talk about in our well family vol cultural for first nations people here as just how they do things, it's black love Blah Blah Blah was to Gar back in garlic is so. What did family vence look like in Britain before the toll ships carrying the settlers and what looked like was what the feminist amazing. Francis Powell called described as wife torture like she couldn't even describe it. His wife abused because she was like that does does not even stop to describe what's happening in these relationships and not only that you've got the extreme discipline towards children extreme sexual violence against children, children in situations of slavery. Once industrial capitalism gets going into the factories and that's the culture that arrived in Australia. It's the culture that was brought to North America, and actually you have both in North America and in this area you have jesuits missionaries, you have settlers expressing their astonishment at. How gently the first nations people were raising their children and then actually expressing their disgust at how little discipline is used and their response to that try to assimilate base children into whiteness was in Australia to remove them to adopt adopt them from their families, a move into white harms and trying them into domestic labor, and often physically sexually abused them, and in the states to move these netted children into boarding schools and literally marched them in military drills like that's all. That's the history of whiteness just like he's had to be wide, we going to abuse you. We're going to take away from the things that you love and we're gonNA Macho and military drills I mean that is a horrific. And it's not one certainly that high feel proud talk about that culture. We basically brought family violence. When I say we I signed my British ancestors brought family vaults was dry like an invasive pest. And it's the same story in north. America this is not something that well the British and the Spanish in civilized these poor savages it's like they had the model for how to raise children probably for how to deal with intimacy in a way that maintains these relations and dealt with sort of natural power imbalances that would try to emerge and wave Fox that up. I believe he used the term egalitarian hegemony to describe how an indigenous communities mill authority was balanced by women sovereignty over some realms and that actually that example that chapter reminded me of this story I read that my has shared with me in a previous. Showed about babboons in Kenya I. Don't know if you've heard about that but there was a case about twenty years ago where the most belligerent members of this community of babboons had fought to eat from this tourist garbage dump that had meet that was infected with bovine tuberculosis, and so what happened was the most aggressive belligerent members of that baboon community ended up dying and so the result was that you had a cultural swing towards pacifism that lasted for decades, and the idea was that the culture showed that behaviors and skills can be learned because of cultural norms that were set I mean if. BABBOONS can learn we count as well right, and so let's turn now to the interventions if we were to set cultural norms where the highest levels of coercion and violence like those exhibited by these babboons who died off were not acceptable and not tolerated or at least held accountable what would that look like and in your book you talked about several interventions that I wanted to delve into especially since in the context since you've published book last year, you've been very public about your support for criminalising course control. So I what does that mean in terms of criminalising course control what would that have as an impact? I think anytime you criminalize something you declare a socially unacceptable and so I think back to when we criminalize marital ripe, culturally the impact of that was to even give it a name was to say that when you say I, do you don't consent to having sex at whichever time your husband demands it. That was a revolution in itself to announce two women that consent is rolling as a rolling thing that. They can withdraw and give any time they feel that by saying Fitch. So I think that the declaration of what is socially unacceptable is somewhat separate to how that is enforced with is something that requires constant attention. So going back to the marital ripe issue, they'd be very very few prosecutions I'm sure of marital rape and we can have conversations about the fact that people are talking about right now is that. Inasmuch as the prosecution and conviction rates so low for sexual soul generally, it's almost as though it's been decriminalized, but there is a big gap between decriminalizing rape and just having a low conviction rates ride. So for me when we talk about the inadequacy of the justice system to respond to this, AH, not saying that is a separate conversation because it's not it's a conversation that needs to be had in tandem but I don't think that it means that we stop from declaring behaviors like control which tantamount torture as socially unacceptable through our legal statutes, how that Ben gets responded to will that's a matter of. Some people may say that a training regime of police and the judiciary and any other first responders as we've seen in. Scotland is a good place to start and that will improve the nature and quality of those responses from police and the judiciary. I kinda go for a more immediate and radical reform, and that is I advocate very strongly for a system of women's police station like gender-based policing not decided. This is not fill non binary trans male victims etcetera to us as well if they are in the situations but just a shorthand that called. Police stations for women they operate across Latin America and another countries across the world, and essentially they are a policing force. That is one hundred percent dedicated to policing family volunteer domestic abuse. So it is police who want to do that work who put into those positions for whom it career poff is made very clear all the way up to commissioner of that particular voice, and that is very important because of the moment police are virtually de incentivized to work on domestic violence but more to the point is these police stations because they're not about. Perpetrators and sells whatever you don't have this really intimidating environment where you walk into often gray called room with is like a plate of gloss between you and the police officer way you're almost already position does a threat. You have a warm house positioned in the neighborhood where this lovely artwork on the on the walls, it's brightly painted and where there is not only police but this social workers, this psychologists. Lawyers people to assist with financial aid. So it's a one stop shop. So let the family justice centers in the states, but with police with the very gender-based policing sort of response and with police who are absolutely a alert to the failure of the system more generally and who advocate and the people who come to them. Now, interestingly, in Argentina, two-thirds of the women who come to these playstations and there are hundreds of them across Argentina. Two thirds of the women do not seek a for the criminal justice response. So that don't take take it through the courts, etc. But what the police have the capacity to do in a situation is go to the house and have a chat. To the perpetrator, go to the House and delivering asked to order to the perpetrator go to the House and say if you don't stop offending, he's what's going to happen basically create a sense of visibility around the perpetrator but it is basically a spice in which women can come a time when they may not even be sure if something is like criminal or is even domestic abuse but they feel uncomfortable they feels a slightly unsafe they wanna talk someone about it and that's what is space there for them and they offer survival support groups. They also places to refer men to and they while the women there they've got children they'll literally have people care for the children while they. Do the police interview. It is absolutely one eighty degree difference from the General Police response where even the most empathic and dedicated police who are absolutely in the force to help domestic violence victims still have to operate in this incredibly masculine his culture where actually delivering a sort of response that victims need is actively discouraged because it takes too much time because their judgements on whether a victim is worthy or not of that time because we'll things misogyny white supremacy etcetera. So when I said to talk about I want to criminalize who has control I wanNA talk about a much more sophisticated response to domestic violence that includes challenging the way potentially, but we even consider policing it but I don't. Think that we have to white some perfect policing system in order to stop reconsidering how we consider domestic abuse to be a crime remembering also that win faults, victims and perpetrators going to the court system accomplished for America but certainly Prestia. But even if jail time is on the table, like jail time is not the only option depending on which state you're in. You can maybe a referral to a batterer intervention program. There may be a referral to substance abuse programs. It's basically getting that poetry data inside that system so that response can be delegated and it's not like well now got them inside the justice system. Now they're going to jail. There are different ways in which we. Can deal with that. Sometimes jail time may be the only response I mean like if you're talking about crimes that are so great were committed against the strategy. There'd be no question about whether or not. There was jail time. Sometimes, that is not necessarily only deterrent response but I think that you know are positionally prefer other models like focus deterrence end justice reinvestment when you try to intervene early but you get these people stepping forward early in the relationship not when it's already Sifi gone dangerous. So is so escalated that it's almost too late to intervene without their potentially bang greater levels of violence or the victims in danger of like a bank both out of the house in end. Facing a future of poverty as so many women are afraid all. So focused deterrence in North Carolina that you were referring to I had shared in your original book. I don't know if it was the fruitful chapter, but the section on focus deterrence because I felt like to me that was what restorative justice should look like because there was accountability I and there was respect for the agency of the perpetrator to make a choice and so the response. That I got from some people who work in the domestic abuse community was that it was quote unquote too harsh on the men on the perpetrators you saying your book like it's not for everyone. So I thought that's what you meant. So could you briefly just describe what is what is focused deterrence and what did you mean by it's not for everyone? Did you mean that it's too harsh? Remembering it's not for everyone but. articles deterrence I think is the exact opposite of harshness infected. It is appealing to the offenders rationality it saying we respect you enough to give you. The opportunity to stop doing what you're doing and we will help you will also help the person you're victimizing in your children too will help you to overcome this problem. We don't want to throw you in jail, but we know what you're doing you know does this is the first point is that we know what you're doing. So when those first that first report comes through of. Incident a whatever happens place go around. The daily is of people who have come to the attention of police, but the having committed an arrestable offence, right so they get a police visit then they get a lead, a challenge that they are now being monitored. If the danger is arrested, then he becomes a sailor style and so he get a visit from a detective either at home or in prison who would explain the consequences under this new model in which domestic violence had big been declared as the number one public safety dressed that we're going to be longer prison sentences, Hasha probation conditions, and so on. This is a chance to realize that. Actually the consequences for re-offending is going to be certain and swift there on loopholes to exploit the judiciary police, all of the different departments agencies working hand in hand, and so you need to realize that what happens now and the choices that you may now going to basically determine your future and is appealing to their rationality that if you want to stop offending you can then if it was the re-offended, that will move to the bay. And that meant that they needed to attend a public colon at the city hall and literally they would be as they were in this Cena describing the bulk in February twenty twelve that'd be set down the front. It's an open colon from the community can come in I'm first of all members of the community on the high point communities against violence would file in. So Baptist preaches moldable. Gang members and other community members would line up one of the and say declared that they were against violence and abuse but that we love and respect you and we want to help you. So the first message given was we believe in you, we want you to be bad that we want you back in the community, but we are against domestic violence and we're not putting up with it anymore than once they. Old filed out and said, you know we'll be here off woods if you want to talk to us than in would filed the law enforcement and so on that panel, you would have everyone from the chief of police to the local representatives from the FBI from Firearms Federal, Marshal Parole, etc, and one by one they would explain to these men how the loopholes have been closed and the new approach and then they. Would get a little at the end of that describing exactly what they already had on them. What kind of sentence might be attached to that and what the next steps were now that Leda was co written with the victim and all every step along the way, the victim would be consulted to make sure that what was being done was not going to provoke was not going to further endanger her or the children. and. So they knew that were doing this because I use this strategy on gun violence and on drugs in high point, and it certainly has been very successful against guns on in the states but they knew that there was a risk that they will going to provoke these guys by calling them out. But what so interesting was that the victim response was to say that them being called out in that environment was. Actually. Had Quantum made effect on a lot of these guys. Such to the point that I recently got in touch with the police in high point and they said, they haven't had to have a coal in to town hall for many years because actually the day and sales lists, warnings were enough to stop the abuse. Now, a whole part of the folks deterrence program is about maintaining visibility. So I don't want sort of the abuses to go underground in as Diet Kennedy who's The intellectual designer of therapists deterrence. The the worst possible outcome would bay that they get the sense that being watched, and so they drag the down to the basement and the caper there where she contacted anyone. So the visibility and having people sort of keeping an eye was really fundamental to this. What was really amazing a May is that the high point solution was done in absolute collaboration with the community so. They would. The hotpoint community groups and and all of these different representatives from various departments domestic violence community. The Justice Department would get together in like case, manage what had happened in the week prior, but it'll would also be an opportunity. Domestic violence advocates at that table educate everybody united they would these constant education sessions. Sessions, to get to know each other to build trust to explain to one another, why certain approaches didn't work to work together so that it didn't feel like once one one pot of the response monitoring doing really well, and then it was falling over in the next pot. So this was like a closed system and the effect they had on victimize Asian was amazing. But on domestic homicide, it was really stock. So intimate partner violence arrests were. Down by twenty percent within a few years as was the percentage of victims injured. But they went from having about three homicides per year in the six years before the strategy began, and then in the decade since it began, they have been nine. So the yearly average went down to about one. So it reduced by two-thirds and I think what was really telling about that is that the homicides it did happen I think only one of them. Had, actually been in touch with police. So one of them I think was a couple passing through town. There are other people who just didn't come see attention to police. But what they figured out is that we can make contact with this perpetrator. We think we can prevent domestic homicide, we can prevent them from killing their partner. To be clear, there's very Goldstein talks about the quincy solution and the idea that domestic abuse is very common I. in Quincy Massachusetts The study they're in the majority of the inmates in that prison, and so the idea was that if you can prevent domestic violence, you can prevent future crimes so that this investment in the community to prevent domestic violence reoccurrence is actually away to invest in the safety and wellbeing of the community long-term. and Vice Versa as well, and that's what's amazing about justice reinvestment as you sort of describing like where I really profiled that in Burke in Outback New South Wales Australia. The whole point was you. You want to identify the circuit breakers for young men particularly where you don't have them end up going the will want to jail. This is a town with a lot of fest nations people in and essentially the idea of going to juvenile prison to go into GV was just GonNa sail your friends. That's just what you did. You end up in that system because everyone does but. That in itself as we know, can generate a feature of abusiveness of future preparation Xetra like no one wants more guys to guys in jail and I certainly don't want that either like. But there's that sense that you've gotta have the deterrent at least present and I don't I've never seen anything suggested that his alternative to that criminal justice system deterrent but what I do see working. So well, walking book was they would look at case. So how are these kids ending up in juvenile detention and they actually collected the daughter were one of the major crimes being committed being committed why? What is making so that? Kids are out on the straight of Thomas, etc. One of the things I realize that there were heaps of driving offenses like in this town of is the highest level of driving offenses almost in the state and it was because they couldn't get their driver's license because there was no one meditates them, and so they just got someone to volunteer and I started volunteering to teach as young kids, and then because that became so popular. saw a group of off duty police officers volunteering teaches well, which for a community that was absolutely racked by violence and crime to have augie places actually offering to help aboriginal boys rather than just like lock them up arrest them was radical in itself. So they were able to look at all of these different ways in which you would stop someone becoming like losing their stake in belonging to society and going and going over into criminality and what I found. Long story short is that they also started intervening very directly with missing violence perpetrators in partnership with police, but would tight community late say you know we know you baiting Audie and we used to turn a blind eye this but we're not doing that anymore. But what can we do aboriginal man? There's a lot of intergenerational trauma of one particular guy was about getting him to deal with his grief and trauma that was like the first quarter of coal and over time someone who is getting a coal at every week for drunkenness and abuse they were no police call outs united as interventions were really working. But what they found was that not only did they reduce domestic violence. Victimization by about thirty seven percent, which is gigantic. They also increased other Marcus of success in the community like the number of kids who are graduating high school the number of suspensions from school dropped by seventy nine percent. There was always indications that that life in general in the town was improving and thus crime rates would dropping. So like anytime. I've looked at something see what works what reduces domestic homicide what reduces victimization it is always a hall of community and systems based response, which is decided that domestic violence does not operate in a vacuum. It is related to serve many different things and we need to be addressing all of them at once not necessarily just the violence. So to summarize what you're saying. Let me see if I can get this right. You you mentioned you know these term primary secondary and tertiary prevention. With primary prevention being stopping it before it starts. Right. So that's that's so is the combination of the carrot and the stick. So that is the justice reinvestment in the I guess the US equivalent would be defunding. The police re allocating money that would go to community policing towards economic development of the community's. Precisely and I actually did that in Texas like justice reinvestment the people in Burke found out about it through the program in Texas which was brought in by Republicans as they were about to build new prisons in all the rest of it. I, brought in the system of justice reinvestment they reallocated money that was Judah be spent on these new prisons, and for the first time in history, they started closing prisons in Texas. You know Texas of all places. So. If it can work in Texas, you can work anywhere because there is perhaps no other state in America. That is so insane about law and order and about enforcement. The secondary prevention which is preventing violence from escalating I would say, is the women's policing that you're suggesting where there's a model for basically a stick. And then the third aspect, the tertiary prevention, which is minimizing the impact of violence maybe as the high point model, which I would describe as basically a domestic violence intervention, which clearly works in abuse and Addiction Substance Abuse and addiction settings where like you said, it's about caring and respecting people have interventions because they care about the person not because they're trying to shame the person if they're doing it properly and then the overall overarching framework is criminalising coercive control, which brings all these three together because it's signaling to the public to society that we care about violence against women about coercive control, and we have this systems approach to preventing it, confronting it and minimizing it. Yeah and we're not waiting for an incident to occur, which may be the first time physical violence is used. It may also be the last time. It may be a homicide because let's face it. We all got stories from our local areas where there was no physical violence afford there was a really serious tack or domestic side and May, I, just don't know of any other kind of behavior that has been defined as torture that we have not criminalized. Way Even. Criminalize child neglect you know like that's on that same as the absence of a physical presence on, and we noticed the absolute damage that is done by that I. just I understand a lot of the reservations in terms of criminalising of control, but I haven't seen any of the fees materialize in the UK where it's already been criminalized even where it hasn't maybe been enforced as well as we'd hoped like in England and Wales. But in some way like Scotland, with the enforcement is pretty high, there were a thousand charges by the end of last year early had been operational since for about eight months. And Ninety six percent of being prosecuted where we are making the legislation around criminalising control more sophisticated, more responsive, more instructive to police officers easier for the judiciary to navigate is not sort of this a shoes hot pin down foam behavior that no one can really sort of place discreet incidents within it's actually not so hard to find as they do in Scotland to all more discreet incidents within the system of course, control that can indicate the control is present, Mike isolating from friends and family monitoring through online tools spyware. Threats to Hamal kill a child or pet criminal destruction to property or coercing on a victim to take substances. Or even coercing them to abuse their own children in order to prevent them from disclosing. This to the authorities. So they've been able in Scotland to really list the discreet incidents within the system of course, control the police to be looking for the justice system needs to be looking for an ads different to England wiles, and this is really really k. in England, you have to prove not only that the behavior would cause a reasonable person to assume it would cool someone fear Allama stress, but you have to prove that fear alarm. And distress was experienced by the victim. So you again, England, Wales, you're looking to the behavior of the victim to prove the behavior Petra in Scotland there is no nate prove the behavior of the victim in the court it is all about objectively is the behavior of this Petrova seen as socially unacceptable does it along with what we have criminalized regardless of how the victim has behaved because, and this is what I've heard from. Recently police officer I was talking to you know he says, you've got police going into situations making value judgments about whether the victim is worth their time because of how she's behaving she's resisting if she's abusing them when they get there he said Oughta go in there. And Make my decision based on does behavior I look at the behavior of the offender? Is That The Hague objectively bad is that something I can take action against an if so I will if the victim wants to stay with that offender, that's not my problem and that's not my issue I will do what I have to with the perpetrator in order to prosecute that behavior and I think it's really really important that we don't try to put the victim in the frame. Say. Unless, you behaved or responded in a certain way the we can't prove that fear Lomb distress was experienced because victims has been no will rationalize away fear Allama distress they will put on a happy face in order to keep their jobs they'll do that to protect their children. I. Mean You can't look to their behavior. It's like is the perpetrators behavior objectively bad good act on that and that's why I think one of the reasons why the Scottish response has been so much more successful. And it's you know it's it's natural to say that. A few years after you get the first legislation against criminal gets coercive controlling increment wiles you get more sophisticated responsibility is lighter because you can see what does or doesn't work. How do you prevent in the Scottish response male perpetrators from weaponising the law against their female victims by because just the concept of female perpetrators if a male perpetrator falsely accuses the woman of being the perpetrator and I've heard stories of defenders in New York, where there's an increasing number of weaponization of the law of the mandatory arrest laws against female victims alleging that they're the perpetrator and the men will beat themselves up or hit themselves with something called the police and the police will come and the woman might stop them from doing that or might be in such shock that they might appear to be the perpetrator. Well I think part of this I mean what we have as proof since twenty fifteen is that the gender nitric course control as reflected in the prosecution. So we have the vast vast majority of prosecutions being male to female with a very small percentage of female to Male, and then some I'd imagine same six in there but I haven't done the data on that. So it reflects what we understand about coercive control I would say that there is more danger of women being misidentified as the aggressive that when when early. Following an incident based response to domestic violence. So when you're only looking at one particular assaults but not invested in the context in which that may have happened or investigating what has happened in the like the previous year's months that relationship. Then yet you're more likely to be able to frame someone the more likely to be able to have police misunderstand violent resistance misidentified as as primary aggression. That's. I think what criminalising costs control changes is that the police have been there to investigate the entire off of the relationship and that's what the head of the lead for crime in Scotland said, this offense is groundbreaking because we finally have a reason to investigate everything that's gone on in that relationship and put the picture together. It is a far greater task on behalf of the the male perpetrator. To frame a woman over a long period of time, not thoroughly beyond some guys, and then to eradicate any evidence whatsoever of him doing signed to her during the main like whereas a guy to just as you say, scratch himself opening cold police. That's easy. In fact, as we saw happen so often they guy may have been choking woman she gives him defense as self he's got -fensive injuries on his face his arms, and he can get her arrested on that basis. or She's just been defending himself in both injuries and he gets to the door I. So I find that to be a much more precarious situation for the victims than been control of. Criminalising control. In the US context when we're talking about this movement towards in criminal justice reform towards quote unquote, defunding the police, it actually can be consistent. I'm assuming because money would be going towards justice reinvestment partly but also towards an opening up space and time and resources amongst the existing police force to actually expand their investigation into course of control if we were to criminalize it. Yeah I mean that's ideally luck I. think that it needs to be taken seriously within the police that actually this requires a good amount of time that there are multiple crimes being committed. I mean even when controls is not criminalized mean too often police going into what is a crime sane and not even just doing the basic investigation, not even taking photos of the area I'm looking at it forensically in the way that they would. If it was a stranger assault effort was breaking serve that basic policing in the basic attitude and approach police needs to be changed what we saw in Latin America because the police. Were you mentioned the handmaid's tale earlier? I mean that was the reality, the Argentinean women, for example, and for women across Latin. America where the police will actively engaged in kidnapping them in having them impregnated, you know disappearing them it was no way after the eighties after the fascist dictatorships ended the, you can have signed police responding to any kind of gender-based violence crime they were the perpetrators. So added that came this, you know radical reimagining, what would it be to put protection at the center of your response and that's what is radical. Those playstations not only that it is a one stop shop not only that it. Is actually a friendly and supportive atmosphere will into but that it is not just about enforcement, it's not about responding and just waiting for something to happen to respond to it's about prevention. So you know those women's police stations, their it is that they have to spend a certain amount of time on prevention so that he'd go out looking for women who are experiencing this. They go out and stand outside the churches they go into the hospitals and find people being admitted who's spoken about the fact that it's come from family violence they go to the churches where the minister is excusing domestic abuse and I go out. In a handout pamphlets on purpose on those front steps on I speak to the minister about it. You know what? I mean these proactive police at Christmas they go around the neighborhoods, the handout presence one academic year who did a three studying Argentina said was like nothing she'd was saying the these police costs would be driving around on people will be jumping up and waving at them. You know it's a totally different relationship with the community because what they're doing is number one protecting them. It's not about any we need to protect the state not protecting property. It's not about all the things the police are engaged with. Outweigh it is just a totally different response, but that still has only invested pals police only arresting powers, etc. But a just get rid of all the stuff that doesn't work. One last question before we go to our concluding engendered questionnaire, so I guess in the US context if we were to adopt the policing model, we would want to have women of color serving communities, of color. Absolutely, I, know that doesn't go without saying but I think that's absolutely fundamental that the problem we have in policing its assignment. Australia. Is it primarily a white supremacist outfit with some people of Color who are also setting within that but as we've seen writ lodged across the United States is that the response is that it is an incredibly watt masculine list environment in which. People of Color and women have to try to occupy the space they can but know too often probably get swept up in that culture and just have to acclimatise to it in order to be successful protect themselves not end up being prosecuted within force. So I think that broad lay we need to be absolutely changing the racial bounds and the gender balance policing full stop. Just for responding to domestic but responding to everything responding to communities they place. But particularly with gender-based policing, absolutely, you need to have the people who are protecting you understand the cultural environment in which you live and just understand the particularities in tots of. You're going to need you know I know that here in Australia first nations women like if you if you're having something like this in communities were a lot of first nations people like the. Of Place in those communities needs to be absolutely sensitive to the different needs, traditions and cultures of people they're responding to. So yeah I one hundred percent. All right well, we're at the point of our conversation where we ask every guest, a series of questions call the engendered questionnaire, and the first question is what is at stake in the struggle to end gender based violence and oppression Everything like you know literally everything and. I say that not in a Glib way but in a way that's really become clear to me more recently, and that is that is to think that our domestic violence climate change racism at Cetera that these rules separately shoes that we were all sort of in a little hobby halls trying to. Solve when actually they're all totally interconnected and as an ecologist gusts spiff who said in I used to think that solving climate change was about installing renewable energy, reducing emissions, and all the rest of what I didn't realize is this is a problem of values problem culture and that's what needs to change and it's the same with all of these separate seemingly separate issues absolutely interconnected i. mean a thing is what Western civilization has done has run the lie that all these we we will ride on separate stages and where first and foremost disconnected from. Nature, that we have dominion over nature, we just sort of extract what we need from that and then so that principle in carries into how we consider all of the various stages on which our lives play and all of the various issues that we think of these things disconnected when in fact, I-, intimately connected and progress in one area is often progress in Nevada. So long as becoming from that, you know values perspective and that's why I just talk incessantly about Patriarchy and the wrongheaded core belief that we have the we are entitled to have power over. So what people entitled to have power people call old people are talented. Have Tower of nightjar Patriarchy expresses itself as Powell Ova System, and it is basically frog marching off a cliff. It's like if it's not climate change that gets us it's BRECON animal virus because we've determined that we have unique power of nature and we're GONNA continue to go into more and more wild areas and can interact with more and more unpredictable viruses like this power over respective is actually killing us and I think you know you look at some of the really positive leadership examples around the world descend Arado in New Zealand. Is often sort of really for granted in this where she's not determining the successive country based on GDP anymore she's determining it by some what she calls a wellbeing index, which is like how the people actually doing forget about the economy and whether it's growing because we know the economy is growing and helping some and not even touching the sides of others to how that a reflection of a successful country. So it's really obvious. And it sort of feels like we're having to really slowly walkout way back to what indigenous people have known for tens of thousands of years, which is everything is interconnected. What you do to is what you do to yourself and where hopefully now as at mainstream culture starting to actually get a grip on that and I, hope we get a grip on it in time because if you listen to science like we don't have a lot of time to figure this out. What gives you hope. You know I i. think that what gives me hype and a what sustains me is talking to people like you terry like talking to anybody who's gone through. This is surviving in whatever way that is is advancing progressing is learning what it is to be a better human to come from self love and empathy in the face of highly. Systems that are in the ascendancy around the world I get by the hope from the various resistance movements and their power block Matt as Maitree. Movement. So powerful. So revolutionary SAR radical that's what I keep onset of hauling onto I also just think that. It's audit feel like I have the luxury of losing her. You know that's the people who have like underground bunkers and millions of dollars to protect themselves like I have. Hope because my three role I have to keep going even if everything is telling me that it's stupid is no hard at all that's not a place. I can leave in it's not a place that I could find happiness. And final question what can we do more of less of start or stop to end gender-based violence and oppression? We can put men in the spotlight or any perpetrator in the spotlight stop obsessing are victims, choices and behaviors and stop making perpetrators. Sought attending to them in whichever why that is required. Absolutely Cape the safety of victims for adults and kids in that same spotlight as A. As a corollary, but stop making perpetrators invisible. Stop sympathizing extensively with temperatures stop letting them off the hook as though that somehow better for them it's better for them. Actually we're doing men primarily right service by letting them get away with this behavior over and over again because so many of these men in normally ruining their partners in edge kids lost, but they're ruining their own lives. And it's just accountability. Is Not being tough on someone. It's not like treating them unfairly it's about making responsible for the homes they commit but then also saying, how can we help? Like let's try to bring you back into the fall to bring you back to a statement from which you might be able to have intimacy Karen. Log. That's what we should want men and not just like. Have them suspended in May situations where they're allowed to continue abusing day off today as though, it would just be too harsh to do anything different. Wise words. I want you to know that I've been doing a giveaway of your book or US version and to my collective members and. We plan on talking about it every week when we have our domestic violence awareness month community conversation. Every every Friday in October. So don't worry I'm going to be promoting this. I mean I. Don't know if you've know this but I think your book is the most important book and domestic violence and I've read. Hence. Cold. Thank you. I thank you again so much for being on the show. I. Wish you the most success in this book and getting this message out because I think you're brilliant in your ideas need to be heard and implemented. So thank you. Thank you, Terry. Thanks for listening to this episode of engendered the show is sponsored by candy, with Qa, appear base knowledge platform that connects social service providers in advice community learning you can join can do it QNA for free at Q. and A. Dot K. A. N. D. IT DOT COM I'd love to get your feedback in here any questions or suggestions you have for the show. Please email us at engendered podcast. Edgy Mail Dot Com with your questions.

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The Costanza Method

Dads Outnumbered

34:16 min | 2 years ago

The Costanza Method

"They live from experimenting. Studio in Phoenix Arizona. It's Dad's outnumbered. Let's give a shout out to your hosts Glenn in Craig can be this week's episode of Dad's outnumbered I'm Glen your host and I'm joined today by our guest host. Mr Luis Caballero so welcome. How are you? I'm great thanks to have you with us Craig is also traveling the world with his family and not with us today so Which is fine. And you'll have great tales to tell us when we get when he gets back in a few weeks so we picked our guest host this week simply because he also isn't ads. Outnumbered when when talking with Craig. Craig has daughters that. Are you know ten years younger than mine? But the nice part is is were among kindred spirits here because his daughters are the same age as mine or just a little younger. So we're we're kind of at least in the same zone of talking about girls so you have to divers your daughter's seventeen and fourteen seventeen and fourteen fantastic so in yours are between a minor Twenty seventeen and sixty now in that gap So you've got seventeen and fourteen and there are three grades apart to set apart. Yeah the the three grades apart was Was By accident and then when it happened to be another three years later after our second daughter we decided to get a Dog. Got Of course to be outnumbered. We got a female female so you also have. Cats don't go. We have two female actively human wise and other species as well. So that's amazing because I have at least have a male dog but you only have a say your decision or just happen that way. That's a good question so both the cats were Purchased as I was traveling so I didn't have any say in the heard the dog on the other hand. We did the first dog. Lola which would have been my subsequent Third Daughters so you and actually Now you did you pick a boy name and a girl name or just. Oh Yeah you were sure that you were. Yes we had. Both boys and girls names We being Hispanic we. We kept them both Latin to an extent with The boys as well But and how many? How many names did you actually pick one each note? But in terms of the You had to list or Oh yeah what I'm saying. So when you first started out ten names or Debbie had about two or three and I had about two or three and did you have but you had a sense on what the number one draft pick was at that time we suggest sadly though our kids we thought we were being unique and super original with our names back in the O. Five era and now there's like ten of each of those underclass. It's always the thing. Is The the question you always get is the you know? I and I think you and I've talked before is that I love girls. I wouldn't have wanted any differently but it would you would. Would you treated them differently? If they were boys. I guess I know it's a silly question but I this point. I don't know because I try to treat them like from a- from a punishment standpoint from you know being being restrictive and and just being from a A Very US little tact you know I think I was. I tried to so they can get Thanksgiving and of course you know you know one of the questions you would ask me. What's the best advice I really do? Implore the George Costanza method do the absolute opposite of my instincts. And really note. I have to because my instincts and you gotta remember. I'm the youngest of five four boys with a very mean sister right in the middle but but I you know my instinct is to treat or them as I would say my brothers or my my parents would treat us and it's the actual wrong thing. I'm sure you've probably seen throughout the book because if I'm if I do one way it's wrong if I took another way. It's wrong. Yes he is amazing. It's gotTa be also tough like you mentioned to having families coming you probably are constantly having to find a middle ground somewhere well fortunately You know We've known each other My wife and I since literally six grade and you know we grew up down the street from each other so our families actually have known each other more. As long as you know we've been married or plus so it you know you would think some of the easiest things were Were you know or the hard things that people couples when they get together where the toughest punch no. It was the most common things that we had in common. That were the most difficult later in life but it was a good knowing that the families knew each other's backgrounds and we everybody knew everybody was actually Kinda Nice. That's good that's great and have you ever had to? Have your girls make a telephone call? Yes Oh yes. They shudder with If I want them to if this is so funny you say that If they really want it they will call and find out. Yeah right but it but it's a battle. It's a battle. I don't WanNa talk to a stranger. Good low yeah. I know it's a funny story last year. My daughter was studying in France and she's in college now right but And she said four years of high school French and one year of university French and we. I wanted to find out what the age was at a hotel. Sure no and I said I can call. Who doesn't speak barely any French or you can call right and she would not call and it was like so. I've got a call and struggle through broken French to find out if they'll accept someone under the last time you spoke French as nine hundred eighty five. That's always the way but we've all kind of dial back on our phone usage anyways which is which is a good thing so the you mentioned travel also is the. Have you ever taken like a single daughter? Just a daily daddy daughter. I think those are important so I think I've probably mentioned this to you. But my philosophy on travel is you know. I don't have a fancy car or you know. We don't do certain things that other other families probably would be considered as extravagant. We travel and so one thing my wife and I make sure we do have those experiences where we You know WanNa travel to a certain part of the region just with wife or just with me and we do it maybe once every two years or some great and But we do. Have you know we travel throughout the year? You've heard some of our travel Last father daughter One was with the oldest would down to she wanted to see this. Overwatch League Games Sport Oh yeah right right at the Burbank studios were Johnny Carson used to actually host actually and So the I said I'll be more than happy to take you but we're going to look at a couple of universities while we're down there as well so that USC UCLA UCSB CA- f- others but then spent the next day in this fascinating tournament. Were a bunch of kids are watching other kids play video games live gotta be designed at live right at live as one see? Are you looking at a big L. A. as you And I'll try to be cognizant of our listeners As you walk into the stadium with Her Majesty seating imagine a center stage area into the right. There is a row of Like a long desk with computers into the left. There's another row of desks along with computers. And each of the teams enter in a very dramatic high production value. Capes yet. No they're wearing jerseys number jerseys like they were athletes and so each team will sit on each side and then above them were. The long desk are is a multimedia screen that spans the breath of the wall. You're facing and so you get to see as they're playing through an each of them have their own view and he's like fifty screens on this. So yes I imagine five kids here five kids there say kids because they're all seventeen. Eighteen year old kids. Each kid has a screen that shows his view of the game and then they have a master view which shows how the overall the fighting it is. It is a sight to see. We're able to follow the action or absolutely but I didn't know what the point of me wanting to watch other kids play a game. Why did not I wanted to play in? But you know I'm sure your kids. They will watch youtube videos or other kids watching video games in commenting on it. It reminds me of that. Show Mystery Science. Yes thousand so that that was the old school version. Another quick topic also is the you like me had relocated for your work and your girls were at a tender age and I'm just curious from that. Standpoint IS THERE. Is there a best age or never good age you again? Having only move one time fortunately most my career in Texas where where where I lived. Everyone told me that sixth grade was a great age. With right right before you know the age because everyone's moving to a new school in everyone's getting new no good age then The younger one was I think in third grade or fourth grade at the time So it was hard Because of the crying yeah I think that's that's what got me. The most is because I don't know what to do with the crying crying. Yes I really. I don't want to sound insensitive but I truly don't back to the whole tough love being firm. We weren't allowed to cry. We weren't supposed to cry. If you're gonNA move Matt Mana or suck it up and just you know go or a new adventure view it as that and we'll make investment. You'll meet new friends everything. We tried everything right. Let Yeah I wasn't prepared for the the crying But I think within it within six months you know oh I got a friend of this person is talking about certain people if things became normal for them again right but It looking at it. Steve Wow six to seven years later I think the girls probably a half year probably would have been. I think Texas would have been a little different Growing up than here I think here in Arizona. You get kind of a west coast vibe where did not have that vibe so I think they're probably a little little bit. More may be laid back then they probably would have been in Texas. I certainly have changed You know the the you know the climate here is like why do you live in Phoenix? Well Georgia is climate. Yeah that's true in the end. The also I think they're now a able to adapt to things changed and things like that which well maybe your girls are able to change is a tough thing for us is is too but I'm saying in terms of never having gone outside of the community you grew up was bri raised. You know they I think they can be plopped into my kids plopped into an area. They're not comfortable with it but they can deal with it. I maybe you're right. Maybe I'm underestimating my kids but honestly the something about change that really and I thought it was general because every I'm not sure about your goals but every other parent on the block here went to the same thing that you know. I can't do this because it'll be different than I had before anything and so I'd I duNno I duNno change. Yeah it's not GonNa Mail Bag Mel. We also have another one. Just listen. We do an irregular episode called Herb segment called Mailbag. I just get your two cents here. This is one I hadn't sent this to you in order to from Clay Selection Klay from Nashville writes. My daughter will be taking the bus to and from school this fall. How do I teach her about stranger? Danger and being aware of her surroundings without making her too afraid and being paranoid. You know what that right way to get them to be aware of. You know Well I'd probably pass drink. Yeah I'm probably the worst person do that. Because I showed my stepbrother's the movie. Okay taught them the phrase. I will roundhouse kick you so okay. Fightback is a good fight back. You know there there. I was surprised honestly that his daughter probably doesn't already know about stranger danger because in elementary school. That is being touted very young. I it is and I think it's just the The now to the point to where she'd been driven to school. Yeah now there they just WanNa make sure sees well aware. Yeah absolutely you know. Don't talk to anybody don't know I think is one Traveling a pack. You know. Grab a little walk places. I think I think it's the basic rules that we were taught to that. I still are timeless minute. Walk with a crowd. Don't talk to anybody. Don't know someone brothers you run like Hell Ya Zigzag via bear runs allegations zigzag having JC you. But I think that's a common sense thing is just the talk define what a stranger is and then go from there. Got a point about adding. There's a stranger enter house. Yeah exactly that helps play. It does play. Good luck to you. Dr Early on the troll is amazing. how different this generation growing up to interact socially then. Yeah and and it's back to that non-confrontational something I wonder I truly wonder it again. Being a a pair outnumbered is it dot gender or is it. A boys boys the same age. Do they go through that to I? I honestly don't know I don't know either And I it you know it could be that. There are more boys probably. Don't pay as much. I'm stereotyping as much attention or could care less what somebody else. We're putting our view as grown boys younger boys and we don't know exactly I I do. I do wonder if a lot of the habits that I'm learning from. Our children of this generation are gender specific or cross cross gender. Yeah and I don't know and it's interesting I I've been So lately I've been involved in the theater company here for the and get spend more time with boys and girls and it is interesting. They are different species. There was a We had the quieter award ask so the day after there was zero awards. And it's it's more of a dinner than it right. The the one that we attended but the girls all dressed up to the nine seven beautiful outfits like basically a prom attire boys'll shorts. You know there was completely different sensibility. To wear their so and then they could care less and but they were happy to be there and the girls were happy to have them right It was very bizarre. How different it. Well Yeah I you know I see some of the grows at the high school and I'm I'm like you know how different were they or were we from them. I am you know but apparently were worlds apart from what I hear so I s It gets even down into the the days of the problem. We are up at your more than half of the attendees are going with other girl group girls and and is that because the The men are less men or at its but the dude you're going with a group of dudes. Yeah right right so you know they. Are they meeting up? Are they saying? Hey you want to go to prom with me. I'll meet you there. You know but because then on social media you see these proposals right right. I had yet to see one. I see yes. Yeah because it's all they all want to go with. A group of girls suggest and go to a house and get made up and then have pizza and then drive there together and then you can go to ihop effort. At least. They're still doing that to me again. Anecdotal but it's it seems to be if if one is a girlfriend a couple. Yeah that's antidote. Typically when they do it. It's rarely that I've never been out with you before yet. Invite you to the pro like when we were like. I don't know this girl from Nesh. I know I'm going to say hey. Would you mind going into the have any of you? Which hopefully some of the listeners will yes exactly all of our twelve thank you. I know you've got a high schooler and house driver's Ed going. Let's don't even know you're talking about so. This trend of I don't WANNA drive. Apparently is much larger than I anticipated. I you remember wanting to drive we were lined up today of our birthday It it it it. It takes a village with this. With my oldest. I've got the Owner of the driving school I've got a couple of parents helping me with some ideas And just to you know. I know I'm getting down to Bribery soon what's the point to where I needed just convinced her that legally responsible that she needs to leave the house went with a drivers license. But it's it's not an easy and of her. I would say you know the six friends as she hangs only to drive gone to rest on. I don't know about what what's your experience. Yeah it's about half drive and my daughter My oldest each one is like I said it's different. My oldest was driving to school for you know. She went to a different high school. Then my other two and so she had to drive there and got used to it. I I don't let him on the freeway until at least a year shares. Oh my middle daughter. Isn't freeway. Certified the Attica. She passed the test. I didn't think she would. She rallied. it was like you know went on for months eight nine months and then finally I thought. Oh she's never going to be able to do it. And then somehow she's just clicked it clicked and I think that's his nervous. You gotta get. I think is a dad. You have to be yet to feel comfort that they can handle. I think thing you always worry about is is one staying on the road but if something happens are they going to be able to react quickly enough and make a sensible choice and that is the one hundred percent true but let's dial it back a bit think about the influences of driving versus versus what they had? We we either art brothers. You're walking exactly a car for some reason. The iphone or the phone replaced the urge to draw. That's true as And if I if to the to the to almost a year the amount of kids who do want to drive versus don't WanNa drive. It's literally that transformation of win. The iphone really became part of. Why don't you WanNa go just drive of their? Why drive over there when I can just texture on my iphone and we can play a game on whatever on switches true that is that's a really interesting phenomenon where you're right it was. It was like okay. I can talk to somebody on the phone right which is other males not interested right girls but I Walk Right a bike somewhere and I'm humiliated right right age. Because they know I'm of age and then you end up the face timing that's done and so I don't know but we're working on it. I'm going to have to probably resort to the legally obligated stores. Your daughter is actually. I mean. Girls have been in sports over the years and your daughter is in synchronized right. Youngest daughter fantastic. And how did she get into that too? So both the girls swam and the road swimming and soccer. I was your soccer coach. I was I was and and swimming. Though they both fell into they really enjoyed the water. There were water babies So you know. Of course dad wants to be able to make it competitive. Let's get on a swim team. So we've their team back home and where they join here. We joined a local swim team as well and then As they were swimming some The pool that we normally were going to was going into repairs and we had to go to another pool. And that's where the synchro pool and the oldest one loved it because she was doing laps and she could hear her favorite songs being played Underwater the youngest one also did dance. She loves swimming. She loved dance. She loved the pageantry of the dance the makeup and everything so when when they the wife was there picking them up and she said hey mom. Can we watch this group? I don't know what they're supposed to be doing. But they're playing great music and and so they stayed for a little bit and that's how the love for secret when you merge dance and swimming together is what you get a synchronized swimming Super Competitive Your there's that commercial of competitive ribbon. Yes it was. It was one of those moments for me was like what am I watching? Everything is so subjective. You know scoring and everything but it is. The girls are just as competitive did cutthroat you know being in a Swim Synchro. Swim Circle. You get kicked punched physical closeness there that you know if you're in the wrong spot you're you know you get kicked in the throat or in the head or something and The amount of time those girls spent underwater versus above water during a routine amazing. Absolutely amazing and literally. They're underwater for a majority of the time. Yeah but they're getting a breadth and then there for a minute. Yeah and maybe not me but close to it. Seems like yeah yeah it is and then having to literally be synchronous and Movement Hinson dancing nothing to hold onto nothing to hold onto touch the bottom amazing and it's You know unlikely days past where you would be in three different sports right here yes. Sports are always an interesting thing where you get to you. Try Sport right either all in or not in it all so but it sounds like well wishing much success thank. We're GONNA do a Quick Dad's quiz let you know. I don't know the answers to these but we'll do it together and see how we score. Okay all right question. Number one is who invented father's Day The names are multiple choice. There Alvin Austin Sonora. Smart DODD or Julia Ward Howe. Sin Noah No from college and it's not the same person but gosh you caress fully during one thousand nine mother's Day sermon Sonora. Smart Dodd came up with the idea for father's Day as a way to honor her widowed father of six I would never. I just went with the name. It was a hundred percent gas on my bed which. Us President Made Father's Day a national holiday. Was it Calvin Coolidge Harry Truman or Richard Nixon? Truman everything happen with Truman. We're going to go with Truman wrong. Answer Sorry Cooler. Although father's Day was began and spokane Washington in one thousand nine ten it wasn't until Nineteen seventy-two said you'd Nixon signed a proclamation. So we were like one hundred year afterthought from a mother's Day mother's Day was founded on a whim kind of two right. Yeah but it was one hundred years. Yeah in two thousand and nine Charles. J sailor became the first male president of what Mothers Against Drunk Driving National Parent Teachers Association or the late J League Lecce. Let's go with little H. Okay and wrong answer. I. I wouldn't know either for the first time since it was formed The National Parent teachers the PTA elected a male president just alleged any officially took the helm in two thousand nine. Wow it's really making making strides. Aren't they glassy? I'm so happy about which famous researcher referred to Fatherhood as a biological necessity and social accident. Benjamin spock Margaret Mead or Charles Darwin. Let's go with Charles Darwin. All right and wrong answers. Sock was widely circulated. Quote is anthropologist. Margaret Mead Margaret made. Okay sorry this stuff one. What percentage of American children are raised in households without their biological fathers so house? Oh Yeah Oh yeah twelve percent twenty-three percent or thirty nine. I'M GONNA say Twenty Three. It has to be somewhat. I went in for for sure on. Get it. It's thirty nine. Thirty nine prophetic well again. Not THEIR BIOLOGICAL FATHER. That does it could be a step parent or another. Yeah Yeah Yeah but but still. That's did not know. Was that high I didn't either. That's amazing fathers from which country Spain's divorce? Yeah thank you. Fathers from which country spend the most amount of time with their children on average the United States the Netherlands Britain? I'd say the Netherlands. They always do my guest correct. That's right according to research conducted by Fatherhood Expert Stony Brook University sociologist. Michael Kimmel Dad's in the Netherlands. Spend twice as much time with their kids compared to American deaths twice which time British Papas put in forty percent more time than their paternal counterparts across the pond. Yeah more than USA that I believe yeah less TV less destroyed so which of the following famous DADS have the most kids. Jim Henson Mahatma Gandhi or Stephen King didn't know they were famous dance but I didn't either I'm GONNA go with. Let's do Stephen King Stephen King. That's an interesting one wrong answer. Sorry Jim Henson Gyms Jane at five children Just to let you know eight had five kids the at five kids. Yes okay gone have four sons and King History. Mci So in two thousand and eight. What percentage of American children younger than six eight dinner every night with dad so two thousand and eight percentage of American children younger than six ate dinner at every night which has got to be pretty small. Show every night stuff. Thirty three percent. Fifty four percent or seventy one percent. I would say thirty three my guest to wrong answer. If before interesting. Seventy one percent of American kids ate dinner every night with their dads in two thousand and two thousand eight. I find it hard to believe kids. Yeah no yeah right. Yeah I mean. It just seems highly unusual. How could it be when thirty nine percent nevermind I logically? Dads are a few more questions to go. We're not doing well right now. To write six wrong dissolute which major historic outnumbered we are? We've lost objectivity which major historical event institutionalized the family model of father as breadwinner and mother as caregiver So again one more time. Which major historical events institutionalize the family model of fathers breadwinner mother as caregiver and lightens men? The Industrial Revolution or world. War what I'd say the Industrial Revolution and the answer is correct. All right we got another one. Father spent more time at home Until that that event occurred so very good couple more questions to go. According to two thousand and nine British survey men gain how much weight during their partners pregnancies. Eight pounds fourteen pounds or twenty one pounds. I'd say eight eight is the answer wrong answer. Sorry it is. Fourteen dollars seems high but it does seem kilograms. Just let you throw over listening. Which of the following countries offers the most generous paternity leave the United States France or Sweden Sweden? The Swedes oddities we. Of course. Let's see here. They get at least two months off while earning up to eighty percent of their salaries at fantasma. That is a really the longer I M- around the more I get angry about that. The Census Bureau tallied up. How many stay at home? Dads there were in two thousand eight. This must be an older survey It's hard one hundred fifty four thousand five hundred fifty four thousand or one point five million. Stay at home. Dads import five million in two thousand eight. That had become answer. Only one hundred and fifty four now seems really small a lot of them were in Texas. All right okay. All right last question or at least last question that we're going to answer I as of two thousand seven. What percentage of working mothers earned more income than their husbands thirteen percent? Twenty five percent or forty one percent. I'd say I'M GONNA say forty-one percent at this point two thousand seven seven ten years ago or more than ten years ago. Yeah more household income than their partners. They earn more than their. I would say forty one and the answer. Sorry the answer's wrong. It's twenty five twenty five percent probably closer to forty now so fantastic our final score just to let you know Four correct eleven incorrect. I really do hope people are not taking advice. We don't know the answer number but that's all we have time for this week. I'd like to thank our host guest host. I think you did a stellar. Thank you much more interesting commentary than my other host. And he's great. He's great by the way I haven't met him but I do feel bad for his dog dog so so for children are very important is exactly and we'll get him on with you next time. He's a beer drinker as well. So thank you probably want to do. A being outnumbered try a path of Beers and international beer to make it really super. Actually that's interesting. It'd make an appeal to our listeners. From so until next time. Thank you and I know. Dej outnumbered was recorded at experimenting studios located in Phoenix Arizona. Please leave a message after the tone number.

United States Texas Craig Phoenix Phoenix Arizona Harry Truman soccer Mr Luis Caballero Stephen King Lola George Costanza Debbie WanNa Charles Darwin youtube Glenn president
Moe Carrick: BraveSpace - WorkPlace

Leadership and Loyalty

59:23 min | 1 year ago

Moe Carrick: BraveSpace - WorkPlace

"Hi there. I'm Mo- Carrick. I'm a consultant, an author and a workplace provocateur I love helping leaders make their workplaces fit for the human beings that work there. My two books fit matters how to love your job and brave space workplace, making your company fit for human life are built around supporting you on your journey to go to work every day. Loving your job. Today? We're going to talk about a couple of different threads. One is really going to look at the midst of how to create an inclusive workforce, and in particular what that means in terms of Waas and what we have to like. In particular, also going to spend some time thinking about how we actually create connection why it matters at work and the ways we do it even in a virtual environment, which we is what the future holds, and lastly I can't wait to talk to a little bit about the seven needs that we bring to work. They're not what you think. Stay tuned. Congratulations, you're tuned into Dov, barons, leadership and loyalty show the number one podcast for fortune, five hundred executives, and those who are dedicated to creating a quantum leap in leadership, your host Dove Baron. He's an executive mentor to leaders like you a contributing writer for Entrepreneur magazine CEO World and he's been featured on CNN fox, CBS and many other notable sites. Dov Barron is an international business speaker who is named by magazine as one of the top one hundred leadership speakers to hire now over to Dov Baron. Welcome new friends, fans and fellow afficionados. Elise excellence, the thank you for joining us on this episode of leadership. Lousy tips for executives. Let me, ask you. What are you need to do to up level? You'll leadership. You impatient for the integration of AI. For many of those who are chomping at the bit to integrate. Believe it secure for the most unpredictable aspect of that business. Meaning people. But the answer is not I. It's people skills for the last ten or fifteen years I've been clearly stating that sub skills of the new bottom line companies, large and small, routinely brought to their knees by so-called soft stuff or people, problems and anyone knows tried to use them well. It can be a little difficult. So what exactly do you need to do to create an environment that will keep your people loyal? And how can we all get much better at those skills? While stay tuned because we're going to discover? Discover just that I'm your host dog, Baron, the Dragon and I'm here to assist you tapping into the one thing in your business that changes everything by transforming meaning into action. Find out more about me. Simply go to DAV BARON DOT COM. That's D Lovie, be a R., O. N., DOT, com, other way this episode obliged loyalty is brought to you in part by Meg cast. Imagine having your own industry magazine. What would that do your authority while whether you're a coach? A content expert on emerging brand. It's hard. Hard to stand out from the crowd, so what if there was a proven way to increase both Yo perceived authority and professional states in the eyes of your market and do it all at once. Well, this is your way to go from being invisible to getting meetings with anyone to find out more go to. Meg Cast Dot Co. that's M. A., G. C. A., S., T., dot, Co, or first time publishes create thriving magazine businesses all right, remember. You can also chat about this show or any past episodes by finding. Finding us in your facebook or Lincoln, you can simply go to look for those groups leadership on loyalty podcast. If you're a new listener, new view, thank you for joining us. STREP HIS ELVEN, we're about to go full Monty, as always you can find his on apple podcast, but if iheartradio wherever you June to guests. We always need your help me San Relevance. Please get over their rates. Review and subscribe to the show. If you're regulus a big, thank you to you for making as the number one podcast globally. Five hundred listless with a potential reach, two point five to four million listeners for every single show were on it angry to be cited by INC DOT COM as the number one podcast to make you a better leader again. Want to thank you for showing the show with everybody. You know all right. Let's strip it down. Let's dive right in. Said if you're in patient for the integration of anything is going to solve your people problems you definitely. Fooling yourself, there are many catastrophes that you have no control over. They tend to hit out of nowhere and send everyone scrambling. But there we're good adopting human beings and we have to. We change over. There are major catastrophes that are. You might think. Cumulative they happen over a long period of time. And when they create enough cultural weight, it can collapse your organization in the blink of an eye, companies, large and small. As I said regularly brought to their knees by these so-called soft skills, people problems. So, what does the research show the things that people need? From work, and how can you and I get way better on them? We'll stay tuned because you're about to discover just that our guest on this episode is more CHARAC now. Mo- once more. Is that how well people can work with leaders who actually give a crap about them? She consoles writes and speaks on the topic very often. She has helping average humans do. Superhuman things to create connections that matter at work which helps everyone bring the full self to work every single day. She's a regular blogger on these topics and related to people and work any. She is a contributor to the conscious company magazine. Maven House press released first book. Bestseller. Fit matches how to love your job. That was any twenty seventeen and her most recent book brave space was is creating workspaces that that are human life was released in two thousand and nineteen. Wait isn't gentlemen. Please put your hands together. Drove, Thank you thank you so good to be here. I'm glad to have you and it's took a while, but we're certainly glad to have you here. Where we always like to start on show is by saying that in a world of influences where everybody can shout out a big name who is someone that we might not know me. My even suspect who has been a major influence on you and on your leadership. Who someone WHO's sort of? Like maybe even behind the scenes. There's so many Dav, right? That's such a hard question, but I think great now. I'm really. Noticing the influence of actually my father, who's been deceased his name is Dan Lewis Cower. He's deceased for nearly thirty years, but I I have been thinking a lot about the influence that he had on me run how he how he lived his life, and how he showed up his partnerships I wrote a little bit about him in the forward to brace face, workplace and and his his courage, his willingness to show up in his own story Fully, has been really inspiring for me, so I'd say Darryl Dad Right now so is that the impact is is a showing up in your own story. Is that what it means for you? It is it. Is You know my dad was attacked? He had he was a man who was way ahead of his time. and he had a lot of challenges. Madonna was in recovery from alcoholism. He got sober when I was six and so i. I kind of grew up in a spiritual community of alcoholics anonymous and my dad really wants. He kind of began to heal himself. showed up in a really authentic way and I think what I see in leaders having the privilege of coaching leaders working with leaders in in many different organizations at the C. Suite at the board level It's often really hard for us all to show up fully and in times like this of course. Where there's so much ambiguity and turbulence I think in grounded in our confidence, being able to stand firmly rooted in who we are makes us really effective if we can do that and I think my dad was really skilled at that, that's awesome. Now you the title of the Book Brace Face. told us a little bit. Just first of all I know it's kind of a probably a question. Sunday thousand times, but just to give everybody context. Why did you choose that title Yeah it's a good question, we. I wanted a title that described what I was trying to help us. Do you know I wrote? My first book? Fit Matters to love your job with my co author Cammie, Dunaway, who's now the CMO Abdul Lingo and Mike Consulting. Practice has very much been focused on helping leaders created environment where they can really activate the full potential of their people, which is not that easy to do. Necessarily you know we're messy as human beings aren't really where we're not like machines where a lot more. Dynamic and a lot more. Fragile in a lot of ways but I-. Inserting for Title I wanted to keep this whole idea of fit workplace that fit for human live is Ben a piece of language that I really have liked around. How are we activating the people part of our business and originally I started thinking about the language. A safe space I'm sure you've heard about the research around social capital, creating psychological safety google did very seminal piece of research in twenty, fifteen called the aristotle project, and a really spent a lot of time with clients working on how to create that psychological safety, but at the same time in my work with leaders I've also come to see that we can't ever really guarantee safety. And as a facilitator of Brunei, Brown's work dared lead. We often talk about how there are no guarantees so I started playing around with that idea of how safe-space social capital what does it mean if we're actually brave knowing there are no guarantees so I sort of landed a great space. The interesting thing about the tidal was after we land on the title of the Book of course we started researching it. Make sure. Are there other books by this title? We discovered that the word was actually already used in the inclusion space in particular in. Student personnel. Environments for college campuses around creating braves faces in particular for the Trans Movement around Heterogeneity and and they had already coined that language for the same reason around. We can't guarantee safety, but we want our students to feel that they can be brave here, so we thought all. We like that word and decided to put in the title. It's interesting because you know I think that there's A. I mean very good. Friend of Mine wrote quite a famous book on safe-space. Follow the family business, world and You know that term is thrown around, but I I really want was enticing to me, was the title which was brave space because. I'm never been politically correct so I'm not going to be start right this moment. And the reason I like braves faces because we've become to fricken fragile. I mean I. think that we're. We're all looking for everybody else to protect dozen shove pushes accountant buds around us, and this book is asking us to be brave in spite of there, not being. A safe space as in guaranteed safe space, right you're. Important Yeah I. Love that and I think I think about this language that I use in the definition, which is that a braves face workplaces one where people can show up every day as they are both perfect and flawed. At do great things together because I don't think we actually show up every day. Perfectly we show up as best we can, but some days are better than others you know and I make an employer who's really trying to activate those hidden talents that there are people have has to create that kind of culture in that kind of community, and I love what you said about so much cotton padding so much political correctness so much be saying the right thing while things -iety around doing it right, which keeps us from innovation, sometimes it keeps keeps us from creativity keeps us from reaching across into different dynamic partnership, so good. I'm glad you liked the word I like it, too. I think one of our greatest challenges is. I get. I do get. The concept the. the premise of political correctness, I think it's destructive in his application because it's become now, everybody scatter saying the wrong thing to the wrong person as opposed to send. How would you like me to phrase that works for you? Which is actually eliciting right because I. don't care if you call me, man woman or or budgetary God I really don't care right. It's irrelevant to me, but for somebody else does matter, and that's fine. Then you can tell him and you can tell other people, but when we're all like you know. Should I say he she they may. Just, tell me what do you want and so as a result I mean you think about? Our relationships with the people were closest to. We're not politically correct. And, that's important I think. My closest friends, we say completely politically incorrect things to each other. That's all we know. We have a relationship and so this political correctness as a my mind has removed the bravery. is needed to potentially offend enough to say. Can we coastguard Deng Oh? Sure I'm sorry. I didn't realize okay. No problem and so that's why I really liked what you were saying about that is that is calling us to that. Yeah, yeah, a this expression venues comes to mind as you're talking around like am I? Am I willing to step in dog? Do like a man willing to do it wrong. In order to dot dot dot in order to do something we didn't think was possible in order to give you hard feedback in order to receive heartbeat back on my willing to really go there, and I think that's where it does require our courage, and requires us to be willing to be uncomfortable. Absolutely so I said at the beginning. There's a lot of people who are. Waiting for a I to come and solve all that problem. Comes to people, and and you actually start. Off with a great quote from Isaac Asimov. About humans, machines and I thought it was a very interesting place to stop, so tell us why you chose to stop with an Asimov by the way I interviewed. One of his Co. off very recently, so you know I like. Now. I see. Why did you choose to stop people book? You know appeal a book about dealing with these fragile human beings with with the colts from Isaac Asimov. Well, read the quote, please. World I had to look it up because I was trying to remember so it's from robot visions, and he says in a properly automated an educated world. Ben Machines may prove to be the true humanizing influence. It may be that machines will do the work that makes life possible, and that human beings will do all the other things that make life pleasant and worthwhile. I also love Asimov I. Love that quote me a quotas, the beginning of chapter two, which is titled Ai Machines and robots. Oh my you know sort of a tripping along in the wizard of Oz was my image there because I think that most leaders today. Are Aware that. Machination automation robotic technology is changing the world of the workforce I mean. There's not any study that I've seen that selling us that anything is. That is not gonNA happen, and it's going to take jobs right at already has and it's going to continue to take jobs as we get better at using using machines, but what I'm really come to see and experience and my client systems, and also in my own life is that that still leaves a huge amount of work that actually is uniquely human. Machines can do a lot automation and a I can do a lot. They can make wrote tasks faster. They can crunch Jan norm as of data that we never imagined they can alleviate the boredom and monotony for humans of having to sit there and hookup wire to wire. Be You know which we've done for the past hundred years, but what they can't do yet? Is Create Human Connection. They can't lead. They can't feel with which we call empathy. They can't navigate the nuances of the vulnerability of someone in a medical environment hearing bad news. They can't do the things that we as humans can do on an emotional and connection level. They can't. Do that because they're trained by humans, they're limited in that way around the limbic brain response. The fair Mona response around all the things that humans do that make us. Really really different than machines that I think as Asimov says here. What happens if machines automation in AI? Take on all that stuff. That actually kind of bogs down a little. And leaves us with that stuff. That's uniquely human that we can really really get good at even better than we've been out in the past and and I think that that's how I think of. It is like we free up this. For humanity, but we'd be ready for, don't we? We can't just be complacent and like field grief that jobs are being lost and fill them with machines without actually retraining our workforce around those things that humans really are best at doing. But you bring up something that is a cultural challenge. Not just at work of humans and that we don't like change right right, so we don't like change so. We like the we'll. We don't like change. We do like convenience, but we don't like to get to convenience by change. And that's that's an interesting dichotomy for human beings so. You know for things to change. To Change. And for things to get easier things to change, but you know. The luddites protested balloon You know wet and. People making a loom and then the Protested Electric Light in the streets and the LUDDITES will add protested the Internet, and they will always be luddites of some form. WHO WILL RESIST? And that doesn't change the fact that things are going to change. It just slows it down because I rem- I this conversation with somebody recently I I lived in the United Kingdom. In the seventy S. During the Threat Food A workweek three day workweek when the miners were on strike, because they were posing minds when the ship was were on strike, because they're closing down shipyards when the steelworkers around strike because the steelwork was going away, all those things have gone away. All of those the company did not for the country did not fall into the ocean. It reinvented itself, but with a ton of. On a resistance and a lot of Disgruntled individuals for a long time. Do you you know when your cultural work, how do you assist a lead the alitas in? Bringing that to to toe with people saying. I know it's difficult, but. Well, it's such an interesting question because you're tapping into of two threads there right one is the threat of the threat of change you know. How do we this change? Why do we resist change? And and and how do we move towards that new future for me? That's always about grief. It's always about what we have to let. Go of. You know the way we used to do it. I started my career. Believe it or not what? You probably would believe it, but I was a training specialists on a billing system I worked for a company called mccaw cellular, which was prior to they became cellular wine. They were bought by a t and T. But but Mukasa was started by Craig mccaw, who was early innovator in the in the cell space. When back when phones were still on adult analog, not digital. I'm dating myself here right, but I think that the. The dynamic of grief is what does it mean to let go of the way that it used to be? And when I worked at the call. My job I actually had the really fun. You'll get a kick out of this stuff. I had the pleasure of being one of the few people that implemented a computer program that was based on the computer system that Steve. Jobs designed when he was in between. It's apple gigs, so he founded next computing rate was black boxes. At next computers were implemented in one company was mccaw cellular, and I was a traitor on that billing system, and that was really powerful time because we were trying to train people how to use the system differently. It was a very different you I interface, and what I notice of course like most computer. Systems? People went through a parallel process. An as help as happens often people get the new technology on board, but they continue to. Use the old to make sure. That it all works, and then when the is finally ripped from them, they use sticky notes or their notebook, whatever to keep their old way of doing it, and it's about what will I lose. Will I lose my competence? Will I lose my sense of being able to do a good job? I will I lose efficiency and so I? Think we have to deal with that as we think about this dynamic of of the changes facing the workforce, so grief for me comes first the other thing that comes up for me. Is that in the arena? We're talking about around. Human connection around optimizing our workforce in terms of the employee experience I. Mean That's really what we're talking about. Turning people on, so they come to work every day at like on a ten scale, an eight or nine not like a two or three where the space to do that as a leader, I have to really know who I am. I have to really do some work about my. Motivations my drive, my desire, my capacity to have empathy to see and feel my employees and I think a lot of leaders arrive at leadership, not having done some of that personal work. They get promoted because they're good at their job. And then they land there and there they say Holy Heck. How do I do this and so I ended up spending a lot of time with leaders. On that? Personal Journey of what's my part in the story of activating activating the potential of the people around me and the processes around me because to do that. I have to be extremely self aware I have to be willing to be self, compassionate and so you know it sounds a bit woo, but it's pretty. Touchy feely this work of yourself. I think that's the distinction that most people don't understand is the leadership is touchy feely. We leadership is soft skills. Management isn't that's different. LEADERSHIP IS A. In the work that I've been doing with my clients. Especially since the pandemic sodded. Initially I reach out to all my leadership. People said you need me now more than ever like well. We don't have people. You need more than ever because you'll soft skills. I've gotta go up through the roof now not down. Up Unlike really yet because you know I just did an interview with a local radio station talking about a exactly about grief about how you know you don't think as a leader. You have to deal with grief what you do. If you have to lay off one hundred people the a your own survivor's guilt. The has. Grief of having to let go of some people. You might care about and the grief of change Oh. Don't go to the office. The grief of item get to to decompress for half an hour. My drive home. People are always so great the drive yet. Let's wait and see because there's no decompression from the bedroom. To the living room where the kids screaming, there's no decompression. And so how are you going to decompress and people like Oh my God? Who Never thought about that? Yeah, so? It's a very fast changing sister situation. We've got injured right now. No I know of. You know you and I both very aware. that. People don't leave jobs. They generally speaking leave bosses. We know that and there's all laxed work. We talked about being around creating a safe space. But we also need to reduce oxidative arrested. You outlined seven things. People need from work. I'd love to talk about those is I think it's GonNa give us sort of a grounding place for people to go to because. These are if you go to lead in any way shape or form. You've got to have him, so it's just walk through them if we can. Maybe we can come back into a couple of them for a bit more detail. Yeah, absolutely and I think since you and I talked last I've I've had this really interesting bid inside an awareness and I think. The pandemic has I think only illuminated even more my conviction about this, and that is that our needs of the workplace are very connected to our basic human needs just to get by the world than many people know best like maslow's hierarchy. And some of the needs that might co author book one, and then continuing in my research on my own have identified are very aligned with Mas- work, but there's also some pieces that I and other researchers are debunking of maslow's work that maybe are. not, necessarily don't exist on his hierarchy of needs, but exists in a different way I think because of our twenty four seven work environment, especially for professional level positions our. Identities. We're spending more time at work than we are really anywhere else. Which I think results in sort of collision of our basic human needs with our human needs from work, so here are the seven things that that are research points to the first one, and these are not in any particular order, except for the first one the first one we just referred to as to meet your basic requirements for life, and that's what you know. Maslo had that really at the bottom of his hierarchy around food shelter safety security fresh water. We this in relationship to our employer is about, can I? Do I have enough cash and non cash compensation in a capitalist environment to meet my basic needs and take care of my family, whatever that means to me and as long as two conditions exist. That one actually doesn't hold the first spot, but it does if these conditions exist and they are. One that were paid fairly, we call. It felt fair. Pay Right. We believe that we're being paid on the market. Well enough compared to others like us. The second is that we can meet our basic needs on that job. For Food, shelter, safety security, so if I'm at an entry level job here in the US for example, making twelve or thirteen dollars an hour, if I have a family, or even if I live lower I, may not be able to provide my basic needs, which means that that one stays in the number one spot until I can. But once I can, it drops to be one of the least primary for incoming generations which I think is really fascinating, because it's a shift to even in my lifetime. So the second one and this again the rest of these aren't really in any particular order, because they're temporarily relative based on our stage of life, but one of our needs of workers to be able to contribute in it killer, contributing to something that matters to. You know doing something that someone notices. You know it matters I can remember a first job that I had early on I was working as a janitor at a acute care, hospital and I. Got Trained to listened with one year how to use the chemicals white floors whatever I was I had moved to that town. Be Near my boyfriend I was in college, but about three weeks into my job. A woman on my watch I had cleaned her room should come in for gallbladder surgery and she died. And My boss his Pedro I. Remember Remember Him to this day. He asked to meet US me in another janitor from the floor, and said Hey I wanted to know Mrs so-and-so died, and she had come in for gall bladder surgery, but she concocted infection while she was here, and so I want to review with you how we use these chemicals, and in what order we clean the rooms to make sure that no one comes into the. The hospital gets an infection on our watch and whammo like at that moment, this kind of mundane entry level job for me in the summer became really meaningful, deeply meaningful, and I knew that you know what what I'm doing does make a difference to whether someone loses their mother, sister, daughter or friend over a routine procedure, and all these years later that story, still six of me because it helped me really get like I'm contributing something. So, it's not about only having your organization have let's say a social environmentally strong mission it also is. It's more importantly about. Do I feel like what I do matters. Subjective meeting, One of things, you'll hear me say even at the end of the show, which is the single The single unifying difference between mediocrity in greatness is a single monolithic meaning, and that feeling that you're part of something that matters in as you said you know I'm cleaning rooms. Who Cares I'm using chemicals cares. Oh! Some might die. If I don't do right all I can keep people alive. You know it's that old story of the bricklayer building bricks, and then what for on building a wall for the now? What are you doing building a cathedral of the? What are you doing? I'm saluting God, oh? Still doing breaks, but from a different place. Meaning yes, I think as employers, we sometimes lose sight of that. One of my favorite podcasts Shekar Dante hidden brain, and he has one called bullshit jobs, and he goes and interviews these people. To do about jobs where no one can tell them why they're doing them and it's moralizing. You know to not know. Why should I be following those things in that order Why does it make a difference? So to contribute is huge the third one. is about being seen and known. And this is around reducing anonymity. You know having someone. No, not necessarily the deep dirk details of our life, but our personal story a little bit to recognize Our Name. It matters so much it feels really good. My daughter, who's a young adult. She's nineteen when she was younger. Maybe sixteen, she got a first job and she was a dishwasher at a local restaurant. Here in my town and I noticed this kid. Kid who was having trouble in highschool, getting to class on time and near she was dealing with anxiety is a lot of children are young kids, today and out, but you got to work every downtime the whole summer. Masterman Day said. Tell me about this like you're doing such a good job getting to work on time, and you seem to really love it. And she said mom. The thing is they're expecting me. And I was like yeah, that's being seen. They knew her name. They needed her to come. At that time. It matters to us. After that for the fourth item, we have connection the need for human connection, and this is the one that I think we've debunked a little bit for Maslow's hierarchy because he had the need for human. Connection Kinda Midway up his pyramid as he called our love and belonging needs. But Brunei, Brown and Daniel Goldman and others have really move the need for human connection. Right down to the base It is important to us. Has Food Water Shelter Safety and security, and we bring that need because of how much time we spend at work. We bring that need right to work. and. VEDIC Murphy. WHO's our former surgeon general here in the US declared in I. It was in twenty. Fifteen that loneliness here in the US is an epidemic in suffer disproportionately from it. We have in the UK in two thousand eighteen. They appointed a new minister of parliament who. Whose job is to be the minister of Loneliness? Their single focus is to reduce isolation in our rural areas, so we have this underpinning of this drive to connect with other human beings as social needs, and we bring it to work. We don't where sign on our chests. It says we need it, but we might as well, but that's you know I wanNA address for. Just because I think. I've spoken so much about this. I think it's so vitally important. We know the latest research into addiction has nothing to do with all the crap we will fed about the war on drugs, and the truth of the matter is about connection and having a community and what we also know, side by side with that is millennials want to work in an environment where they feel. They have friends at work. Because millennials are brilliant in. They stopped this bullshit that the rest of dead, which was called work life balance. They understand it's nonsense. It doesn't. It doesn't exist, so you've gotTa have work. Life blend not means the friends are at work, and that doesn't that stops them from being lonely allows them to to have those things. So connection is it saves us from addiction. It allows us to communicate better and what we know is that the production level of people who have a best friend at work? Also the research shows goes up. I want to just pause for a moment that because that one is important one and he has why, because since the pandemic? People who've gone remote. Companies were we can't go remote, and then they just government. Oh, apparently you can turn an ocean liner on a dime, and we do also going to go out of business. And they had fourteen days twenty one of the most to turn that companies around and go remote many. Did I believe that. More than thirty percent of the workforce will not return to tune standard workplaces. The challenge with that is. Okay, you're home. You have a family. Now. You don't get the downtime that we talked about earlier. But for a lot of people who live alone and their community is at work. What do you see as the future of that piece? I. Think. It's a real issue to be honest. I mean I I'm seeing rising levels of anxiety and despondency from workers everywhere I can't even tell you dog. How many phone calls on on zoom calls where the chats open, and someone sends me a message you know. What would you say to someone like me? I'm worried about mental hall of I haven't seen another human in two months. I think it's a real challenge we. It's interesting to me because you know you've heard the fresh zoom fatigue. People getting some fatigue. I have my own theory. Now I'm not a brain research, but I think that part of why we're getting zoom fatigue is that we're? We're trying to get that emotional connection. That family based LIMBIC brain responses like I get you, so we're efforting on these calls to connect with each other. There are researchers and I. Know This from some of my Ted Experiences I. Heard a brilliant talk by Alex Generous who herself is on the autism spectrum and she talks about some researches PhD. Candidate that they're doing to create. RAMONES sensors through technology that will allow its particularly used for people on the as spectrum so because they have trouble sometimes translating the data coming in family to that naps motion and I've been thinking. Gosh, that'll be great technology for virtual workers, because it will help us to feel each other in addition to seeing each other, so I think that companies are GonNa have to find I'm thinking of them as sort of anchors or islands in the storm, virtual connection that does create some actual face to face connection, and some communities that both are alive through variety of digital experiences, but also some occasional. Occasional in person experiences I think it ups the primacy, the importance of having that occasionally we have this weekend. A couple of family members down from Washington and visited. We had a socially distant dinner, and we all commented about how it just was so wonderful after three months of not having dinner with friends to be in the same proximity and I don't know that we're ever going to be able to do without that completely but I think we can work around it a little bit creatively, and then kind of just honoring and acknowledging people need to have ways to connect at work. It's. It's it's very interesting to me. The research around what's happening what I'm seeing? And at the same time when I interview. millennials. The I have twenty six people on a millennial team that work with me and. And I was talking to the person runs that team and she said we didn't know it was called quarantine lifestyle, but we live that lifestyle and I go. What do you mean she goes? She Goes I. Only people I meet a through my computer i. mean everybody you know. She's just thirty. Runs International Business and she says. I you know I. Have My close friends who are in a Mike Immi-, geographic proximity, but the rest of them most of my friends she goes some of my closest friends. I've never physically met and I'm like. Wow, so that makes me. Makes me question. My presumption my own assumptions about. About connection. For her. It doesn't seem to be missing through this, so do you do? We Miss Connection in the form that it's and because we've only known in the phone minutes in, and we moved down the line. Two generations, not one so not not even Gen said, but the generation that comes after that and say. Do they meet in person at all? I don't know. I know. I'm seeing the impact on On boomers certainly on. gen-x absolutely! But maybe less on millennials and less still on Jen's ED, so it'd be. Gen Z. will be very interesting. Thing! It will be I agree and one of these I'm noticing. You've probably seen this, too. Is that a lot of it does have to do with how we connect my teams, a millennial team to and I and we're typically a remote team. This one person in my town, but the rest of us are remote and I noticed that they have a different way of connecting electronically. It's more frequent. It's in smaller bursts and they're more comfortable spending time just with out. Call it social. Social connecting questions, asking questions about personal life and having like you said sort of more of a blend between her. They really get energy from that, and I think some of it is also about how we do it. Are we asking those ambiguous personal questions facilitate connection instead of just zooming through our agenda, and then we go off the call you know, so. I think there is a lot to learn from the from the generations that have grown up on these digital platforms. I don't believe the need is going away, right? It's just a matter of how we have. We make it how it's that those. That's what I'm saying about. The presumptions of how it's met is what I think. We're going to be confronted with over the next ten years. Now I, think you're right, and here's another little side of it. While on Coburn, my mom is in her late eighties, and she's pretty tech savvy like I. have to give my mom, my mom a lot of credit like she uses or Iphone, and she text and stuff, but she's also learn how to use zoom on combet. And she talks to my sister who lives in New England three thousand miles away talk every day in that format, and I am noticing the reduction in isolation from my mom as an older person just through that technology and I see mental health benefits. Fair so I think that that's an interesting reverse. Uptick of of leveraging during Kobe's, so we agree that one super important, so the other couple that we have a one is our human need to learn in this was on rows hierarchy to right. He had self actualization, but it's really about just being better tomorrow than we were yesterday. You know we have a hunger to learn. The millennials get a bad rap because there's sometimes seen as you know, they want promotions before their. Their do I. Think the need of millennials is more around I. WanNa grow I WANNA learn. I want to be better. And I was and I think that it is a basic human need that we bring right into the workplace, and if as an employer I, don't have a plan, and not talking to my people about how they might grow here. They're not gonNA. Stay. You know you're not gonna stay with me because. They want to grow. The last two are feeling supported, and this is about this gets back to talking earlier about brave was safe in terms of the language I originally titled this one to feel safe at work. Going with this, you know this data we have. That makes us know that we need psychological safety, but. We can't guarantee and so I think of it as feeling supported to take risks. In particular what we need as members of teams is we wanna know someone has our back. Right and then our team or someone network is going to be there when we mess up right because taking risks were gonNA make mistakes. And so I think feeling supported means feeling supported for who authentically are knowing that we're not perfect, which means if we are stretching and growing, we may actually do it imperfectly sometimes, and we learn from that and I think that support is really really important, and then the last one, and this is another one that's changed a lot I. Think in my lifetime is the need to make our lives work. You know when I entered the workforce as a young baby. boomer I don't think. In my family ever asked me like. How's this job GonNa work in your life? They were just like. Go go work. Work your ass off. You know, do whatever? Now my children who are in their twenties and thirties. They're saying. I'm not so sure like can I still pursue my avocation? Can I be a musician can travel. Can I make can I work this work around my life and I think that that is growing. You know we see we see parents wanting to be caretakers in ways that are perhaps more attenuated to their children. We have people with hobbies at enliven them, and I think especially in the post recession economy, and I'm sure now in the post cove economy. We've got a reprioritising of the place that works fits in our lives, and so I think that need for our life to work to is just continuing to rise. If, it's interesting when you look at the the first thing you mentioned the last thing you mentioned because the first thing you mentioned as you know, have enough money. To Survive And then. So if I going to get work, but if I'm going to get work, I've got to have a life you know, and so this is the it's the top and bottom that is so vitally important because you know, we used to go out and to get a job in order to have a life and now what I love about millennials and even Jen's Etsuro now twenty years old. Saying! I want a life. How does this fit in my life and I know because I work with baby boomers who elitism like what is wrong with the young people's? Thank y'all. But I think that's the beautiful thing is that they understand this warm, and and that it is, it is, it is not a work life balance the work life blend that we've all got to sort of find a way to to to make work now we're coming towards the end of the show, and I know that one of the subjects. That is a hot subject for you. WanNa. Bring it in before we get a chance to finish. Because he is I mean aside from. We know that we're recording this. It'll go out late. I still think it's an important subject to bring up which is diversity and inclusion. I know it's an important subject for you and the work that you do. And it's. Diversity and inclusion subject matter is obviously bubbled to the surface during the black lives matter, protesters slash riots, et Cetera, but this is not just about I mean there's there's a very about about it by African. Americans is also very important patio. About a people who are non white, and then there's another group. which non binary and then there's another group which is women. Montana diesel women. You know. Even outside of the binary thing they might even just be white women, but that lack that horrible lack of balancing you see these pictures of. Of the Senate we see pitches of. Kit the committees that are working on this or that and the bloody group. That is saying you know we. We don't really care that much about women's health because there's no women in there. And Women on boards, Anelda like an Iceland in places like that, which was seeing a massive shift in in the Scandanavia in countries where there's a Mandatory to have women on the board and. When you look at all that, do you think I just want perspective in? This. This rise around black lives matter in the consideration of race. Do you think that's going to? Call for more. They, they they the ripple effect will call us for more women, or do you think the ripple effect will push that further out a make? It really ought important right now. Now thanks for asking that question that way. I really appreciate that an it to me. It's all connected, I agree and to me the thing that I keep coming back to as it relates to WHO's on the inside and who's on the outside, yes. And insider outsider status rides. All of this and I think that I'm very optimistic and I'm trying to be optimistic when I'm not despondent about what the black lives matter, movement will do for us around really getting really getting why it is that systems need to change so that they don't disproportionately benefits some in all right now. It's centered around black and white, and that's important, and it will send her on all the other dimensions of difference. The reality is and I. See it as I'm sure you do have. Is that organization? Simply do better. When they have not only diverse workforce at every level, but inclusive workforce's where people feel like they belong. And where it's equitable how I get power and status in that system. I think it'll as a white woman, a white middle-class Hetero normative. Able Body woman I'm aware that feminism in the last thirty forty five years has benefited me and other white women like me more than it has benefited women of Color Black Women and other. Racial diversity, and so I think that we've got this huge percentage of the population women of color who are gonNA rise. Air Those seats and I also think we're getting an upper ticking A. Finally maybe a blend of of the power structures, saying the insider group saying hey. We could we could we imagine that we could even be better with more inclusion, a wall and you know there's some powerful stuff coming up. You've probably seen it. There was a New York. Times article in the in the paper yesterday about women political leaders leading their countries during Kobe versus men. And some of the AIRTOURS, six of insider culture, which is white, male culture, which is adapt from White European culture has the tendency to be authoritarian authoritarian. Non Collaborative is is not playing out well in some of the male leaders of the countries that have suffered the most drink no-bid so. But some of the women leaders are doing much better so I think we have to look at that. We have to look at it in the face whipped. Say What does this mean for us and not just around men and women, but around the qualities of leadership that we no matter. and to say all right if you're a white male leader, what are you need to do to be more effective you know and then also. How do we make sure that we've got equity at the table with women and all that other dimensions difference so we have to do it. There was a there was some research done about about eight years ago. And it tested women in leadership roles, and and how they did. And overall, they did better. Than the men cross the board, but they the one place they they get far worse. was their refusal to create vision. was really fascinating so I dug into the research. which most people didn't they just up Madeleine? And the reason because they were asked well, why won't you create a vision and every woman lead? US said because it isn't mine to create Women were collaborative. They were being judged on a non collaborative. System, that was the old white male system, and and they were refusing to do that and it's interesting to me that in the last even five years call a collaborative. Leadership is so much greater. and. And as that accelerates I, you know my hopes for women in power. GO OFF! Because we so frigging need empathy in the workplace empathy in the world, not workplace, but in the world empathy compassion vulnerable things that you and I talked about in our previous conversation that we've been talking about long before. It became popular with Daniel Goldman of with even Bernie Brown who we both love. You know the this anybody who is bringing that to the spotlight. It's important, and that means worry were embryo by virtue of that. We have to embrace. Collaboration embraces diversity and inclusion. And this no way around that so. This has been a a wonderful conversation I. Really was so much more I could have gotten into with you however. I always like to. I'M GONNA. Give you a chance to tell our audience more about you and where you came from ad and how people can reach out to find out more about you and all your resources, but before I do that, I always like to ask. Can you share with us a single piece of. Practical advice something that I'll listen. Obvious can go and say okay. You can go do this today like get off your buck. Go do this now. What would it be? In context of what it is, you're sharing. Be Curious. Curious! Listen be curious asked people. How do you see it why you see if that way? Why does that matter? And really listen like I think right now. especially. I, think if we can be more curious, we will create better places that are fit for human life. So that's my mantra right now for myself to. That's awesome as you know, it's my sign off and. It's the. I believe I created another show out because I believe is the only way to save the world. Love won't do it because everybody is subjective, understanding of that communication won't do because with terrible asset. Can Be curious. We can all say I don't understand. Help me understand that which leads to empathy right because then we can feel. Know then we can feel with and by the way you were talking earlier Michael. Kimmel. Who wrote? Angry white men. He has his wonderful thing. He says in his Ted. Talk about men must benefit to from inclusion nothing. Mend that if it to. And I think what you're saying and what we're saying together around, be curious. Is that when we really are? In with each other without curiosity, it applets us all including white men right. It's not about anybody having to suffer or have less. It's about we all get to be more more connected more vibrant. You know more successful in ways that matter to us, so that's interesting full circle because what we sell out was this thing? With changes this the Greek for the fear of loss. And they I believe that one of the antidotes for the fear of loss is is not that you you're going to take away what people losing, but to show people the value of what getting. So it's not just I'm losing this. Okay. I have to deal with that grief, but what am I getting and and I think that a lot of. People. Who Look like me? White males just see the I've got to give up a piece of my pie and I'm losing something as opposed to. What can I gain? What am I getting out of this? And that's a very very important. So that was a great way to finish. Thank you. Know, please tell our. Tell our. Listeners. Can find more about you and all your wonderful resources awesome. Thank you so you can find man all the social on Instagram as Mobile Carragher Demo e I'm on facebook on linked in on twitter on my website is McCarrick Dot Com. We've a of funds specials right now. We just launched our love your job online class, which has a free tool kit I know that a lot of people are Outta work globally right? Right now and the toolkit offers just so many awesome resources to help you not jump from the frying pan of the fire, but really find a job that turns you on, and so I offer that to folks free they can find it on the website on the toolkit page, and I'd love to hear what people think and and to engage, so thank you so much. Thank you my pleasure in on having you. Thank you for all your shadow? It was a blessing I. appreciate it. And you're listening to remember. You can hang out with other conscious leaves and chat about this episode. You've been listening to any of our past episodes by going to either facebook or Lincoln groups just look for the leadership and loyalty of cast. It doesn't matter how successful you are. If your employees and your customers don't fully understand, when gives you a company meaning you're only working at a fraction of your capability to. To find out how you can hire me. Dove Baron a speaker of leadership strategy for Yourself Oldfield Organization. Simply go to DAV BARON DOT COM, that's do Wien B. A. R. O. N., DOT, com, because unified meaning, or as we call it finding your dragon fire is the one single monolithic difference between mediocrity and greatness, whole individuals and for companies. We will thank you for sharing this show with everybody. You're no. Next time stay curious. My friend stay curious about. How you could be curious. In the way that you interact with everyone, because there is a line between what you absolutely need just to survive and the life you want to live. And how do you bring those together? Because that's what we've been talking about on this show, we really appreciate it. I'm Sharon. I'm here to assist you typing NGO. Dragon fire to reach the next level of clarity, focused purpose and profit your business, your life and the leadership impact.

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Ep - 143 - HUGH ACHESON FROM TOP CHEF AND TOP CHEF MASTERS

Reality Life with Kate Casey

1:00:32 hr | 2 years ago

Ep - 143 - HUGH ACHESON FROM TOP CHEF AND TOP CHEF MASTERS

"This episode of reality. Life is brought to you in part by milk. Keep listening to discover how milk ads Mortier day. Now. Here's the show. Amazing cake JC welcome back to another episode of reality life with Casey, I hope that you guys had a great holiday happy new year. I know this is probably going to be a shock to all of you. But I was home on New Year's Eve with my husband, and my kids they drink sparkling cider and imitated me, which was pretty funny. My resolution this year is to get out more. I feel like I'm scrolling through Instagram all the time and everybody is going to fund parties and doing fun things. So listen invite me to stuff, I I'd love an invite over for dinner for cocktails for karaoke. Whatever it is if you're in the area, let me know, and maybe I'll actually leave my house that would be fun. This week's episode. I'm really excited about Hugh atchison is from top chef masters and top chef he's got a really interesting career. And he gives some great inside scoop about what it's like onset of top. Chef now I do. Believe that there are two kinds of people in this world, those that have waited tables, and those that have not I think it is imperative for every young person to spend a little bit of time working in a restaurant. It is so hard. I have to say that it is really hard. And it really teaches you how horrible people can be and how wonderful people can be. I worked in restaurants when I was in college. So the first place, I work was tortilla coz, which is Tex-Mex place on the hill on Capitol Hill in Washington DC, very famous so a lot of senators representatives came by and in the first job that I had I was the host. And so inevitably somebody would call me and during the lunchtime Russian say while I gotta tell you that Senator Bob ause on his way over so he's going to need a four top. And there's like a line on the door. And I took great joy in telling them that they basically can go screw off. I don't care what state they're from. But they're not enough tables. They really wanted to pull their weight to get you know, some chips and saw. Elsa. And we had a catering manager. Her name was candy con she was really strange and always had wrinkled clothes. And then I became a bartender, and I got fired because it gave a free pitcher of Margaritas frozen. Strawberry Margaritas to another restaurants bartender. The manager dawn fired me used to wear this one of those bracelets that said, what would Jesus do, and it really, you know, upset me for quite a while. And then I thought about you know, what would Jesus Jesus would do Don he'd given free pitcher of Margaritas especially to a fellow bartender who you know, will bring business to your bar. So you stews you lose who who what are you doing? Now, Don like to know that then I worked Tony Joe's on the waterfront and Georgetown. If you're ever in Georgetown, you probably know it, my friend, Tim Ryan, and I would play this game called celebrity where we were so bored. We would look at the people who were at the restaurant. And try to pick out who they look like in terms of d'appel ganger for celebrities, and that would be my pants, but the most cruel thing that we would do is that when new servers would join the restaurant staff we made up a fake birthday song and dance and told them that that was restaurant policy. So if one of your customers says it's their birthday, this is what you need to do to celebrate it. So I probably going to help for that. Now that I asked Andrew Rubin who I met at preschool our kids from preschool together, he's Sterckele the guy watches so much reality TV, you guys would love him. He reviews instant hotel. This is a great new show on Netflix. And know that you're looking for new shows all the time you're going to basically watch all the episodes and like two days. So the series follows homeowners who have transformed their homes in DOE tells and are individually judged by each other to receive the highest score with the winner winning ultimate prize, which you find out is to go to America and stay in a VR. Oh, so it's a really good show. I want you to watch that. And then I've been watching real housewives of New Jersey, which by the way, it's getting much better than it has been in the last couple seasons and Daniel stop is just a bit player on the show. Now, she's just like a friend of the show. She was the one in the first season the Theresa flipped out about and through the table. She had that book that was written about her. Anyway, she got married. Lead to some former baseball player named Marty and the wedding is a destination wedding in Vinnie. Now, it's her third wedding. I need to know what you guys think about this. If it's your third, weddings? Should you have nine bridesmaids matching dresses, should you have a bachelorette party? Should you be registering for gifts? I think it's pretty ridiculous wanted to know what you think also the woman clearly went off the rails. She screamed at everyone. She had them wear these matching bridal squad onesie bathing suits, and then had did a photo shoot. And then yelled at them that they weren't model material. So yeah, again, I think it was a little outta line. And wanna know what you guys think I pretty sure everyone caught us all from the beginning that thought marriage wouldn't last I think it ended up lasting eight weeks. And it made me think of my phone first wedding. Remember, I got married when I was like twenty three years old it lasted like year and a half. I went to college. I met a guy that was in the ceremonial guard. Through my best friend, Dan. So it was in the military, and we got married and spent almost no time together, and it didn't last long but out of it. I got a bunch of awesome friends who lived in the town of Virginia Beach with me. But anyway, the wedding is was it disaster. And I wrote an article about it. I'm gonna posted in the Facebook group. So you can read it if you've ever had a disastrous first first marriage you and understand it was a shit show from the beginning. Let's just put it this by Mike groom's brother, tried to strangle him at the rehearsal dinner. I didn't even want to hang out with the groom at my own wedding reception. Like a kept avoiding him. Also, my sister. Megan she eloped two weeks before and she brought her own photo album to the wedding. I mean, it was a disaster of after proportions. So look for that in the Facebook group, the article about my first one. So anyway, the reason I bring this up is that I was fascinated by the wedding. It was a real disaster Julie era, Danielle stopped wedding. So I tracked down Julius Michael who did her hair and all the bridesmaids and Priscilla who did her make all their makeup to. They're the ones that you always see in the background when they show like behind the scenes of reunions or watch what happens live there like the makeup hair team. So I tracked them down to ask them what was really happening that weekend that wedding weekend. Because it was quite an episode. Remember, it's so important to subscribe to the show into leave an IT tunes review. Please make sure you do that. So please enjoy this week's episode here we go. I'm so excited. I get stuck to Hugh Jackson. He is chef author. He's a TV personality a top chef masters competitor turned top chef judge. He is in six time James beard nominee to time James beard Ord winner, unless you've won some more. And I'm not sure of you're an author. You're often the owner and had chef of five restaurants in the south and huge advocate for supporting communities by eating locally grown food, which everybody appreciates tell me a little bit about you. I know that you were born and raised in Ottawa Canada. You're the youngest of four kids only boy at h fifteen you begin to work in restaurants after school tell me a little bit about how your love for cooking began and how your career sort of took off. You know is kind of raised by a single father and with three older sisters, and it's a my family is very economic family. A lot of go getter, very smart people with a lot of PHD's and things like that. And I was bit of the black sheep. So just I started cooking when I was quitting a quick young age and after school starting at fourteen fifteen go in and work in restaurants. And I just happened to get a lot of really good experience over the time. And and is just always felt like a place that I belonged, and I felt comfortable in and could excel and in a place where I didn't really seem to have the focus for school at much rather skip classes and go play snooker and things like that. And then how did you sort of work your way up? You know, he'd Kohner world is slow and working your way up. So, you know, it was a show or a young line cook and dishwasher and things like that. And then eventually became a sous chef, and I moved to Montreal and worked at a very reputable restaurant that I think is no longer there. Now but Cup win enough. They which was on Saint Laurent Montreal and the move back to Ottawa and worked across the river and hulk back at a very fine dining French restaurant called Alpay bushy, and just, you know, never went to cooking school, but was trained by a lot of amazing chefs throughout the years and just got a lot of very professional aptitude at a pretty young age. You know, it wasn't. They weren't the pirate. Lead kitchens? They were very brigade system. Very regimented. French kitchens, did you ever feel like anyone gave you a hard time because you're soft taught? No. I mean, I I think that the. I think the that we've learned that over the years that the culinary school's are bit of an industry themselves and some of them can do great work and teach people the right skills and other ones have a hard time getting people ready for an industry that takes a long time to really break into and and develop an experienced to lead a kitchen, and you know, it's kind of a slow roll, and in becoming a chef in the old school and people come out of culinary school with these days and think that they're just ready to be a chef right out of the gate, and it's usually not the case. So now, I never felt that way though. And this style of cooking that you you started with. Many of the restaurants that you have now sort of have a certain flair to them is that the the kind of cooking that you begin with or that sort of change over your career. Are they gonna change is still every day? I think that positioning yourself as a learner in life is really important and read a lot and travel and pick up different ideas over time, but it's always been based and very much a cooking from the Larder of the community in which I'm in. But guided by principles of French, no talion, food and technique. But you know, I've lived in the American South for well over twenty years now. So I cook from the larger of the American South, but tinged with very much French concepts and technique and talian, wherewithal and nourishment. So so in two thousand ten you competed on Bravo's top chef masters, and then returned as a judge on top. Chef tell me a little bit about how that came to fruition. The opportunity to work on TV. You know? It's funny. Bravo calming number tons to be possibly on top chef, and it always kind of turn them down. And I was getting a little bit more press. And kind of we had a number of years under a belt at five and ten my first restaurant. So they called finally with the offer of top chef masters, and at that point in time, I felt like a little bit more time to give to it. There's also a big difference between top chef and top chef masters top chef masters dearly departed, but was really meant to be raising money for charities. So it didn't look as sort of selfish is doing it for your own winning and of whatever grandiose award was, and it seemed like a little bit less of a risk to your to your career. If you didn't weren't portrayed. Well and things like that. It was already at a certain mantle, and it it's also a lot less stressful because they're not following. Round in your dorm or anything like that where you're where you're staying. We all had our own hotel rooms, and we're all older more established chefs overall. So it was it was great to do it, and it was fun to compete, and I learned very early on in the run of the show that the more. I said that was acerbically witty would probably be used because a lot of them. Just stuck their head down. Cooked and car does love and love them to death, though, only talked about his wife and children over and over again. But that was his one sound bite Tracy deserted en doesn't really speak Mary. Sue just wants to make tamales and. Yeah, so it was good. I found an opportunity to talk a lot and cook a lot of food. And it was a lot of fun. Great experience. G keep in touch with the people that you worked with on. Not I show. Yeah. Number of them. I do I'm very very close with Namie Pomeroy and very close, Tracy dessert. I and Mary sue Milliken and a lot of us work as each other's in the same circles, whether it be food festivals, but more so Mary sue, and Tracy are very involved with a lot of politics food and sustainability issues whether it be with no kid hungry or the beard foundation or the serve see watch and things like that that so we see each other different conferences, the retributive that tell me about when they asked you to come back as a judge is that a difficult transition to go from contestant to judge. You know, they asked me to come back and judge serve they little to my knowledge. They were kind of trying me out on a show. That's no longer with us called top chef just as earth. It's and Gail Simmons was hosting it. And they have me on with a bunch of real housewives people in the Bravo. Bravo contingent. They often do that. So and I remember eating more suites. And I think I've ever had in my life and where they going into they disgusting shock. A some of them are good. Some of them are really gross. I'm not my thing. So, but it did well on that and how fun with it. And then they you know, they had a opening to really become a regular judge on top chef. And so that was the entrance to that. I did that for a number of years and now really don't do much with with it much anymore. They got Graham Elliot doing it now. And I go on once in a while as a guest judge or things like that. But you know, once you're on TV in this modern world of ours. You're always on somebody's DVR on a service and a streaming service. So it doesn't matter. You know, it's a I'm thankful for T. TV is also accounted for about two percent of by working wife. So I'm prideful all of it. But it's not the majority of what I've done, but isn't it? Incredible. That just having not opportunity on TV you open. You open yourself up to a whole new audience. So even though the television show makes up two percent of. Your career. Does it astound? You what it did in terms of visibility? It doesn't it doesn't it become, you know, book becomes a bigger business card than when you're just a chef and TV becomes a huge business card. The follows up after that. And it just increases your reach. And and what you can do. But most important to me is an increases my ability to hopefully, make change within them in my community or working with wholesome wave and no kid hungry. Have an impact on lobbying on the hill, or whatever it be for, you know, saving snap funds and things like that in the in the farm Bill, and and so as long as it has that impact I'm happy to be very proud of it, if it's just about, you know, Twitter, followers and things like that. And I think it's a little misplaced idea of success. So people really wanted to know kind of some inside baseball stuff about being on top shop. Okay. So did you have a favorite chef Tess? Esten and a favorite dish. E probably not a favorite dish overall. I think that. Mylan an effort what season my was in. She made some phenomenal food and was just always an amazing a Boolean presence. And I think half of the success being success on top. Chef is how you carrier self and and really make it work. I think, but there's there number of people like that who've done really, well, I always liked Paul Keyes food a lot the first in a show in of quickfire challenge. He produced a plate of food that was just phenomenally intricate and beautiful yet. So simple. And it was a trout that was just barely cooked and seasoned with a simple vinaigrette and a couple of vegetables on it. But it was just he just nailed the technique of it in. I think that that's, you know, those are the times when you're like, wow. That's that's really amazing can the contestants think about recipes beforehand or is everything. Off the cuff. Everything's pretty off the cuff. I mean, you're working with the knowledge base of what you have in your head. I remember older seasons of top chef when people used to get in trouble for having cookbooks and things like that and their little dorm rooms, but you know, I think that to a great degree. That's that's that emphasis has past. And, but you know, a lot of it's just cooking off the cuff and mixing ingredients that you're comfortable with and in. But you're gonna always be most successful with stuff you've pretty much cooked before and can put a twist on to fit the occasion. How can the judge is adequately judged the food once they've been sitting under hot lights for a little while. You know, the taken into account. We're told that, you know, not you don't take it into account on digger Dacian of something that's beyond the control of the contestant of the chef, you know, if something came out, and it's a little on the lukewarm side management sitting for twenty minutes. That's not really their problem. So you look beyond that. But, you know, something heavily heavily salted to the point of air than that didn't happen. Under a heat lamp it happened before in the production of the dish or or something just completely burned and and wrong. That's the same type of thing. They really do if make it pretty efficient that the food gets to the tasting judge pretty quickly. So what are you? Tom pot note. What are all the judges doing while the chefs are preparing their dishes. Tom's on his phone. Podcast getting makeup Gaels cracking jokes. And I'm just waiting. What foods do you hate? Not many really. I'm not a huge fan of some OPEL things, you know. But but then again, I do I mean a love a really beautiful. You know, sauteed, lames brains and things like that. But they're a couple of things. I don't really like I hate marzipan. That's a left field. But I really really marzipan is the devil. What? So what is the one recipe that can Mark great? Chef I think it's simple things record technical prowess and understanding of food. It's roasting chicken or it's cooking perfect steak. And it's how those are season than in the processes and technique behind nailing the outcome. I think cooking fish with a perfectly crisp skin is is something that takes good acumen natural serve chef talent. I think making a really balanced salad dressing and things like that. So it's often serve chef aptitude really lies in a lot of perfectly done simple things that Americans do everyday, but often don't do very well like me, what is your most favorite ingredient to us. I think you know, there's so many things I mean, I think that the American palates have changed so much that we want big flavors now, so chillies and vinegar and high acid foods big spice complexity, those type of things Markle out of the food that I think we're we're going to words in the food that I love to cook. What what would people be surprised to know about the show offscreen? I mean, just the abundance of hands and people that takes to make that show is beyond belief. It's huge now. I mean, there's over two hundred people working on an episode each time, and there's you know, eight cameras and a coronary team now of like four or five people. It's just a beast of production. So I mean, I think that you know, you look at a Finnish show and sometimes you'd think oh, there's probably like five people behind the booth or whatever. And it's just like, no, it's a lot more people than that. Now or do you want to throat punch picky eaters? No, I'm kind of a bit of a pacifist so throat punching is just not cool. I think that peaky eaters or if you're a chef and you get concerned, an anxiety prone about people asking you for gluten free this and Ed white that then you're in the wrong business at the wrong time of of the millennium because it's just your business, and you need to deliver food that people wanna eat my last question is what she ate for breakfast. What did I eat for breakfast eight some granola and really nice cappuccino? Okay. That sounds good. Now, I want you to tell everybody a little bit about seed life skills because I think this is a fantastic idea. Yeah. It's a really it's it's a simple premise is that we've kind of lost our way with home economics curriculum in public schools across the country. So in watching my kids go to school and I have two daughters, and they went through who MAC, and or what's called family and consumer sciences now, I just noticed a bit of a sort of revisionist idea of of what that curriculum was looking like. And so we got down and figured out that we could create our own curriculum and injured into the schools, and so it resides online, and it's a free curriculum that any school public private or whatever can download but see life skills dot org is the address and the Earl where you can get that. And really what it is is. It's just a contemporary action of basic necessities skills. It's urban home steadying for every kid because to me it's like, well, we can change the world by school gardens and better school cafeterias, but nobody was really teaching kids to cook. So if you can teach a kid poaching egg and not recipes, but just technique based ideas, and if you can teach them how to roast chicken and processed carrots properly and make vinaigrette from scratch and make rice, that's not minute rice. Then maybe we quip humans and citizens with the wherewithal that they learn these skills in grades six seven eight, but they get to the most difficult terms in life when they're on twenty and they come in Kana mutt. Mutter under their breath that I got this. I can do this. I can feed my family, and my people and myself without resorting to something exponentially more expensive or unhealthy for you. So it's just kind of re-equipping humans with skills that have kind of been lost throughout the last generation. How can people track you down like find more information about all all of your books about your restaurants? Yeah. I'm I tweet a lot and I'm on Instagram a fair bit. So that's at Hugh Jackson, all spelled out. And then I've got a website. You can follow the restaurants, and it's got a little shop where I sell kind of my doodle prints and things like that. And that's Hugh latches dot com. These days getting into the things that really matter in life can be tough, especially with all the distractions and pressures in your life. Your job managing your family going to school. But at the end of the day, the things that matter the things that we really cherish are the symbol ones. At dairy milk is often a big part of those moments one of my favorite things to do with my kids is to make homemade ice cream. We make batches of chocolate and vanilla using wholesome dairy milk. We make an effort to find milk from local southern California farms, and my kids also love to make milkshakes made with dairy milk and Oreo cookies, what are your families like to do with your dairy milk? Milk is simple nutritious and fresh from the farm milk is part of moments that shouldn't be taken for granted, you know, a lot with a friend sharing a favorite recipe around the dinner table with your friends or family. We're just a comforting glass of milk and cookies after school take a moment to savor the moments that really matter with milk today. Think about all of your friends who don't color their hair. It's pretty hard to do. Right because most women color their hair. That's why you should think about Madison Reed. It's a company that's really revolutionizing the way women color their hair. It's a company that the founder Eimi air it named after her daughter see for decades women had two options that they wanted to color their hair, they could use an outdated at home hair-color or they could go to a really expensive salon. So aiming created Madison Reed because she believes women deserve better than the status quo the reinventing the way that women color their hair because they're giving them the quality of salon color, the convenience and Ford -bility of an at home hair-color, and in Monja free formula with ingredients that you really can feel good about you can look like you just walked out of salon. Join hundreds of thousands of women who've tried and really loved Madison Reed. Find your perfect shade. At Madison dash re dot com. Madison Reed would like to honor reality life of Casey listeners with ten percent off plus free shipping on their first color kit with promo code reality. That's. Code reality. Interwoven and I met when our kids went to preschool together he's in real estate and the loving father of three boys with his gorgeous wife gala. I found a show that I've asked you to watch. And you ended up loving this show for everybody it's called instant hotel. It's an Australian reality series on Netflix. So the series follows homeowners who've transform their homes into hotels and are individually judged by each other to receive the highest scores with the winner to win and ultimate prize. At the show is hosted by Luke Jacobs. The winning team gets an all expense patriots to a super swanky short term rental and sunny LA a rental owned by one of the as they explain over and over again the biggest stars in Hollywood. So there are five couples. There's mother and daughter team, babe and bond, I from Bondi Beach. She named her daughter after where they live. I. Not the beach that much. That's like living in Nashville. Indie mean your kid Nashville? It's a little bit weird. Okay. There's the fussy couple rent and LeRoy the gay couple from Port Douglas. They're super bitchy. But I I love them. Okay. Then there's a golden the Queen of mean the Queen of mean indeed. Okay. The high school sweethearts, Mark and Janine they are from the south part of Australia in wine country. They've got a unique home. It's fifties retro and the funniest part about it is it's an American fifties retro theme. But they've never actually been to America visit ever do America. But he's imported all this stuff for on their pretty amazing. And it was pretty amazing. I don't know if I would have stayed there though, because there were only two bedrooms that had combination eight people so they had to sleep next to the dining room table. Well, one of the things I wanted to touch on with this. But we haven't really introduced everybody is that, you know, the tough thing is you've got, you know, in this in this case, you have four couples that are all strangers thing there. And so anytime there's like people they're sleeping in common areas. That's not really ideal. However, you know, when you're never going to be renting one of these places with strangers. So you always renting what friends or family or or something that affects that part of the yeoman's up to take out of their judge them is that is a good point. Then there's newlyweds salmon James from Byron bay. They are they've been married about a year. She's a yoga teacher, I think he fixes pipes. But they live in this beautiful property that they like to call north Byron bay which apparently is absolutely nowhere near Byron bay. Totally thirty kilometers away from Byron bay, which is like a thirty minute drive. And in the last couple is a married couple Adam and Cathy they've live in in a town. I swear to God called Humpty doo in the northern my favorite couple, by the way in the northern territory. They live in a huge tropical oasis, and they are the first couple that displays their short term rental. So basically, this is kind of like it's a cross between net. Flicks is stay here, which is like an Airbnb renovation show and survivor because these five teams off to compete against each other to see who has the very best like V VR B O rental. An each episode is following these teams as they stay at the fifths rental spot. So people get quite nasty once they hear how other people have ripped apart their home, you know, whether or not they've enjoyed the amenities and the local activities, so let's say the first couple in the northern territory. They don't really have. Any local attractions, so people would rip them apart, and they would rip apart another couple because they have terrible sheets. Like, for example, g you wanna stay at someone's home. That has a bed outfitted with black sheets. I would not want to. That's just me. Well, it sounds gross. So gross one of them one of them. Did it actually they didn't. So first of all I have to say, I watched the show with my kids, and they were surprisingly super into it. My daughter was cracking me because she is has working knowledge now about the monetary system. So it was cracking me up. Like, the kid has has no idea how much things cost in the world. But started out of an opinion about how much they were charging like she said that fifteen hundred dollar is fifteen hundred dollars is way too much for that place. Mom, they should be charging eight hundred dollars. I was like who the hell are you like what I have to say it makes you want to go to Australia. I definitely want to book a trip to bond, I beach after this did, you know, anything say. I would stay. In forty hours. I would stay there. I think I would stay there. And I would stay in the the luxury palace that is the newlyweds parents home, even though I have to say for people that want to watch that there's one episode where they go to the newlywed couples home, and they live what they call a five minute walk to the beach. And I think that anybody who has us like a a booking through online reservations for booking hotel. Will appreciate it because people lie hotels lie. So they said it's a five minute walk and they had to walk through like this. I wouldn't have done it. I don't I don't think I'm like that. I I wouldn't have done it like the funny thing is though they were locked that sort of cross over the first one and everybody waited through the swamp instead of walking along logs. I would've tried to take the balancing act and risked falling oh across the lugs. But then the rest of them, you could see they were walking through these mosquito and tested us, gross gross. My daughter kept screaming at the television. Why aren't you walking? Why are you walking resident? So I didn't like that either. If you've ever been on a trip tried to put a trip and have berated the person that helped you choose the spot. You will appreciate the show. Also, they're all characters they're all they all end up. Be oh, you need to other the the stars of the show differ, Humpty doo, Humpty doo, go that company where they actually. Yeah. They ended up being my favorite. So tell me who your favorite couple was and. This your favorite like a favorite clip of the show. So people will want to watch it. Okay. So can I just describe it? And I describe all five couples in my own wet. Yes. All right. So the first couple of house so episode wanted the Humpty doo house, and this guy nice friendly guy. He's really kind of like a, you know, just a just a, you know, nice guy that you love to kinda hang out with. I love that. They send you to go to local attractions and the local attraction, the Humpty doo hotel would use where he sent them is like a place that you can go grab a drink, which is basically like a dive bar, but or maybe it's like grabbing a drink it like, you know, the somewhere deep south in Alabama at some, you know, hick type bar, which is fine which leads me to market Janine. Mark has a full blown mullet and owns it. And I love every second of Mark to Mark is marketing and been married thirty seven years the from wine country, and they're the ones that have that, you know, unique flair of a house. It's really got a museum. Liam of California or US nineteen fifties diner at a collected everything from from Coca Cola to, you know, the the what do you want to call it? Did you boxes to you name it for fifties, flared diner? But that mullet he goes in that in the Humpty doo, you hotel, which is not a bar, and literally just says, you know, what screw all these people were here. I'm gonna go and sit and get we'll go local sits down with a beer and just starts chatting away a love him to death. Then you got salmon James who I wanted to say they were the most normal. Like, I said one you think oh this is like they're a good looking couple from Byron bay. They must be amazing. You know, she's pretty he's, you know, decent looking looks like a surfer whatever turns out later. They're actually sticks in the mud. They want to go to bed early every night. They don't drink which is fine. If people don't drink, but you know, part of it was getting to know everybody. They just really sticks in the mud. And they and then obviously gets to you by episode three when you find out that they're action not from Byron bay at all yet. They claim to be then you have babe. Barden mother daughter combo who are stuck up they act privilege. You know, Bonnie's the worst. She's actually, you know, you you you wanna hate it actually by watching the show, but they have the best entrance ever when they're trying to find this place in Humpty doo. And they're they they're looking all over the place because it can barely read a map. And maybe it's hard to find good look kind of hard to find. And then she ended up doing three point turn the next thing. You know, the cars hanging off a ledge, and they really like out of Tacoma and take his truck out. And like rap something around, you know, the car to pull it out of the I mean out of the ravine that she basically backed into. I mean, it was the best entrance ever and explained everything about it. And then you got Britain, LeRoy, who again, we're once it was actually paid who had described. Leroy's being the Queen of knee to couples Brenton LeRoy and babe him Bondi where like getting and I guess too quickly. What do they have? It was babe. We know one of my favorite quotes from her is she was like kind of I think angry at at Brent, LeRoy. And she goes don't think I won't remember this. I have a memory like a steel trap. Wait. I lost my train of thought. I mean, it was it was perfect. It was you know. And then anyhow, I think they all they all were characters in themselves. Babe in Bondi, remind me of that show, Catherine Kim that that that show that they had on for a little bit. They're quite funny together, and they have great one liners, and they have this really weird flat in Bondi Beach where all the artwork is a Barbie dolls. It's really like you gotta watch it. But I thought it was a stellar show. I liked some of these homes are like putting lipstick on a guerilla. I mean, you're like why would anybody stay there? But for anybody that's ever traveled. This is right up. Your alley. Would you give this show like a five star four star three star? Four star. I think I would definitely recommend people watching it if you like anything home and garden TV like this is right up. That alley. You know, if you're, you know, into house hunter type stuff or whatever it might be like, I don't really entertaining. I would definitely need probably watch the next. I know the next five get to the kind of the second finalist. And then I think there's two more episodes after that they decide between the final is this five and the second side. So I would watch, you know, the next seven episodes just to see who gets to go and stain Leonardo dicaprio's on. He's funny. I took the kids tip Baskin Robbins, and they ended up talking to the girl that works behind the counter, and she told me she never watches reality shows. And then I told her I'm watching the show on Netflix called instant hotel. She said, oh, I just finished the second season. So yeah, I so for people that don't really watch that many shows you'd be surprised how much you might actually get into the show. So I highly recommend. Show. Well, thank you. Appreciate it. No problem anytime. Did you know that one of my great obsessions our clutches? I think there's just no better birthday gift than acute clutch bag. And now, I'm using the posh Mark apt to at my clutch collection. Did you knew that posh? Mark Harry's women kids and months items, you can find a ton of brands to shop from for example. I am always on the hunt. I should know Tory. Burch even J crew assessories, and I can find them all on posh, Mark. You're not going to believe the deals that you can find on posh, Mark. I mean, a Louis Vitton speedy bag for only three hundred dollars. Are you kidding me? Like insane deals. Posh Merck is the easiest way to buy and sell fashion items. Shipping is easy for both the seller and the buyer, which is a big deal, and they've got super fast shipping. You see something you want? You can make the seller and offer you can even share your posh. Mark closet handle by telling your friends and family how to find you on the app. So this is what I wanted to do listeners of reality life with Casey get five dollars off your very first purchase just enter the invite code reality five when you sign up that's invite co. Owed reality five. Celebrities. Rely on Julius Michael to help them create their glamorous style. His signature looks can be seen on TV and it red carpet events for coast to coast and internationally Priscilla destroy is a professional and celebrity makeup artist. She's best known for her consistent work as the main makeup artists for various reality stars and on TV and movie sets. Welcome to the show. Okay. Happy new year. Okay. I have asked Julius and Priscilla to help me review. This week's episode real housewives of New Jersey. Now, you guys may have seen them in the background since they were responsible for the looks of the bride, and at least some of the bridesmaid's. Okay. Let's go back to the beginning. Guys. Margaret, Melissa and improbably Theresa Danielle's. Biggest nemesis of the last decade. We're asked to be bridesmaids in what no one coined the wedding of two thousand eighteen when you were asked to be in charge of the bridal looks were you aware that it would be for the worst ride Scylla in American television history. Most people don't have big weddings for their after their first wedding. They don't and also most women are not bridesmaids over the age of twenty six. So it is jarring to see a crazy bride and nine bridesmaids when you're over a certain age, am I wrong. I don't think you're wrong her thing. But I think then yell has been looking for love many many years when she met her when she met Marty. As he fell mob. And she got that this is an really just going by like knowing her. I don't think she -ffected turn out the way did and this was like her dream wedding. I think I'll fly sea apt everyone being Harada party. I don't think you know. I don't think she wanted to like a parade of old ladies as those who are friends were at the time. And that's what she wanted the one part like in Danielle's defense again, like how Julius just mentioned to you. You know, she is a beautiful woman. And I don't think that the way it fanned out where her full intentions courts have go. However with that said, you know, I try to in that moment if we were to remind back, I kept asking Juliet, and we're gonna laugh at this. But I kept saying Juliet are they really getting married. Julius the twilight zone by what is happening. And he went to like, all right? Like we were. It was crazy. But you know, with sudden and heard the fan anybody again being familiar with the bridal industry destination, weddings are Schrafft's beyond a whole different level. So add cameras to that. And and how. Live. You know, the way I feel she was a, and I maybe sympathizing a little more than all the viewers out there. But it was a lot to take on and in such a small amount of time. So when she asked Margaret to wear a bathing suit and got mad at her for not wearing pants. Do you think it was fair to ask all of them to wear bikinis? When you know that are bathing suits, when you know, some of your bridesmaids are not comfortable in a bathing suit. I mean again for me I'll jump in. But again, this is something I've been ride quite so, you know, again in those situations when you have a bridesmaid when you're acting that person. They're they're things that come with being a bridesmaid there's roles I'd come with it. And it's also being a player, you I think, you know, in their in their situation with them being a little bit older, maybe not loving every part of their body. You know, except with Theresa who is doing fitness competitions in the midst of it. You know, I mean, I would be a little bit more easy going and accommodating in that sense, but I again witness many bribes not take crap from their bribe. Maze. When they're crazy though. That's like a fifth. I'm on the fence about that, you know. Okay. Well, let's say you're in a wedding and someone shoe to carry a parasol and you have to wear like a night neon. Green body suit. Are you up for the job? I mean, I'm a you can ask you. I'm up for anything. You can't always, you know, control everyone else's insecurities and more at the end of the day. You want that day to be happy and you want to avoid as much as possible. So in that case Danielle was not or that she was about what she wanted. And we're going to do whatever she had to get that. I'll tell you. If somebody is seventy keeps to me instead where this bridal squad Leotard, and then walk on the beach. I'd say I'm out like, God bless have a great marriage. But we're not doing it on my watch. If you were my man of honor would you wear dress from me on my third leading. If I got married, you'll if you sing no are you left with I friend. I mean, oh, my honestly, I would do what I have to do if it's not my dad, and I'm fat, and I had like that. But still asked me to wear body to. I would what sites did we miss like, what would have been epic television that we may have missed out on. Why television? You miss me calling through. Quote, Julius in in the moment of violence after Daniels meltdown, and they were all gathering for a photo. Julius said Teresa, you cannot be that dumb. And that was definitely not making it the camera. What was that in reference to? Gain y'all with genuine, very, hi, Sean. It's a moment we would trying to get all the girls in order for photo. And Danielle was a little, you know, above and beyond because we had to do, you know, the girl knows their hair wide. So we had to take pine to do them. And she just was very basic control, the the the inevitable, which wasn't really controlled at the moment. And so she her being the way he was Theresa made a comment and goes Kenya thick I have right here. And like Julius just like at a point that everybody would just like take the moment of silence and run with it. And and so he gave that calm. Ethic at the moment. We were all dying. Turn on question. You can't really be that dumb. Like the lady finally calm down those photo. And you're worried about one string of their come on there were some fights. So that led up to a lot like there was a lot of stuff, you know, with Marty Ciragan. There was a lot of a lot of comfort there. A lot of accusations, which you saw bits and pieces of them to why she was marrying Marty and all that stuff, and you know, they didn't sleep in the room together. They will come on things I wouldn't normally play out on someone nation wedding. So the Josip mardi out for some pre wedding cocktails because Marty was not allowed to have a bachelor party Danielle claims Margaret cetera up by hiring strippers for her bachelorette party and allowing them to lift her in the air like Dan, dirty dancing, aerial pose. Now, why did you do? You know, why Danielle felt like Margaret would be embarrassing her having strippers that our bachelorette party. I don't think that anything that Margaret in that in not chelation when was intentional. I didn't you know. I wasn't aware of Danielle feeling that way, but I know Margaret, and I know that Margaret is a girl that's a bowl of fun. And I don't think she would do anything in pension. I think a bachelor party is exactly what you witnessed how it should go down. I mean, we should be the lucky to be on some faith that are bachelorette party or even have. Exactly. Okay. Then I'll take a couple of guys sitting on my face. It'll be fine. The moment. As you mentioned the chose took mardi out for cocktails. Now, they told him they thought he was pussy whipped. And that he lacked balls Joe Margaret's husband, even took it one stuff further and spill the beans about forty five thousand dollar wedding gown. Danielle had bragged about secretly charging to Marty's black card Marty said that the reason he was into Danielle was because she was a challenge and she was hot. There's always the better choice of words, depending on who you are speaking about so keep speaking of Dan dob as a challenging challen, but he's looking forward to I might reconsider that type of talent. So I think it's of words in the delivery on grew. They're thinking about because I don't know if anybody would wanna take on Dobbs challenge. Exactly what day. Then, you know, Joe came back to the hotel he walked into a glass door. He's tripped and fell. Joe is the life of the party. He's a ball on the day of the wedding. As we saw Danielle was going mental because half, the women did not have their hair blow dried Julius give it to me straight. What happened with the emails? Okay. Hopefully, why is on me. This is what's the downfall of my my distance within you know, became know, what happened with me and Melissa had worked out armed blue. Dr visuals together before we got the original plan was I was going to blow Melissa or out Friday night and Saturday, I would just curl her. What happened was the Addis the photo shoot which threw a wrench into the time slots for Friday's. So I never got to blow out on Friday me and her trying to figure out what how did you look battery? Then yell was trying to get everyone hair done that was in the broad party, and the scheduling, you just got really chaotic, Melissa. I told Melissa let me finish here, and I'll come to your room. I'm listening came walking. When her never went a little bit. Free stuff. Then Margaret, and I tried to tell being ill. They'll learning about Margaret hairs quick, you know, we'll get it done calm down. And it's just yeah. Blew up. It did look like in the Bahrain right in wrestling. You throwing you fill in the dark. I mean on the. No. You know, what it was everything? He said, yes. Like, that's that's how it went down. But did on concert. All Danielle was definitely I think there was little animosity because she naturally had some tension that had built over time with her and Margaret and just by not excluding only Margaret she had to take it out on the rest of the team as to why, you know, with tension about to why we were even doing that to be honest. You know, there was a lot like she wanted to make sure because we do you know, Julius has been Melissa for years. I've been with Theresa for years. So you know, these women their priority. These our girls we've been with them for a long time there, but why loyalty there and so being it wasn't their day. And it was now, but then yell had, you know, started using Julius benign. There would familiar little tension with old control thing copying that. All kind of you know, tornado into some of what you saw. What didn't air that? We would love to know. And once again, I default on that. I mean as far as like, the like, I know there was a little bit of drama with by Danielle getting very you'll get very very, hi, Sean about somebody intentionally moving her veil somewhere and that caused a get it. It was like Magnus. And then I don't even know. I remember at one point it was like being blamed on one of the cameraman blank out by. I don't I don't know where that they'll let or who moves it. But that was definitely something that I can remember being an issue, right? Like someone intentionally. Wow. You know, like, yeah. But like she made it very clear in a prior episode where she was like, I don't wanna feel. She made that comment. You know, I don't wanna feel like the dog over the bone or something, and you know, that was really on top of everything that was going on between her and Marty personally, and then just trying to make the wedding the what they wanted it to be and then all the drama with, you know, would filming show and everything it was all funneled up into seventy two hours. So now that the marriage has been dissolved do you think that she married for love to get enough coverage in the episode to be considered a full time cast member or she just wanted to refer furnish your home with new assessories from z gallery. Well, I don't think that that's like, I don't know like that being her home. It would bear home. You know? I want to the break that I like I mean, I'm like fro Danielle right now, I have to say, then you'll have amazing taste. I will say that her homeless furnish from ziegfeld every and it may not you know, she made. Well, I'm not saying I'm just saying did she did she want to get married? So she could get some new stuff for house because it didn't last very long. This is the stuff that the viewer. You have the benefit you have to remember this. You guys have the benefit of knowing all these players intimately, and we don't. So we're on the outside watching. So all of us are getting did this person really marry for love or do. They want to be on the episode of the TV or did they just wanna get new assessories for their house? We have no idea because we don't know any of these people personally, you're right. You're absolutely right about that. I think that you know, I think thing L it's probably a mix of both. I think wanted to come back is obvious. I mean that she doesn't deny that didn't want to be on the casting know honestly hippie a CAF members. She really is good. She's good TV despite whatever flaws. She and everyone else has she really does make good TV wait think this marriage mardi just to be on the show. No. I think she married Marty because she wanted to be married. I think I. Here. I think. That be taking care of you know, there are a lot of things that go on that. No one knows. I mean, I I I don't want to be involved in her divorce her relationship, but not everything she says true kinda. Right. Yeah. Stephen spitting. She was sitting in my lawn, and she was in crying before. And and I've read a message that he sent her and I was like, wow. Correct. Yeah. I and I can watch for that as well. And also like having some heart to hearts like Julius than I definitely have hearts together. There was I truly believe a lotta love there. And I think that it was intended to go the right way. And I think that everyone died in over their head because in the beginning like even the location of the wedding which a couple of times. So, you know, I think that just again, it's no different than what happens on a on again being in the bridal industry. These these things do happen. And I feel like it was more magnified because it is a show at the same time that's taking place, but I feel like all the emotions and and the marriage was real. And there was love there. And I think that you can't possibly like the way it is. Now to me is very bad. It's very it's disgusting. And there's a lot of mean things out there. But I feel like they're. Can't be that hate if there wasn't about passion. So I don't know if that makes sense anyone, but you can't hate somebody or defies them. If you never loved them in the first place thought that it would work, you know, like you said earlier in their, you know, there I didn't think logging we're going to send us, wait. I didn't think mardi is going to send us a Ben Moshe for refined that cry airplanes. So if people want to track you guys down so that you can help them with their looks. Where can they fight as Rodel except for bridal? Where can they how did it tracked? You. Michael one or on Facebook. Julia Michael and on Twitter Facebook, and they could visit me at my earning. Yeah. When you're in New York, I'm visit and and Priscilla will come in. And we could do a makeover on. Yeah. Greek impacting, you an and I'm also on social media. Oh, I was in fam- on their at MS missing Sola and WI fi on Instagram where you can go up on my first and last name anywhere. We'll come up with all the island. You can contrast right through there have my website as well. So and I. So. Amazing kate. I think my great guests this week. Hugh Jackson, Andrew Rovan and Julius and Priscilla again. Subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. You can go to my website love and knuckles dot com. You can find my Facebook group if you go to the search button and put in reality life with Kate Casey. You will not wanna miss out on all the stuff that we talk about all week. You can find me on Twitter at at Cape. Casey. I like to tweet during shows and about shows, and I'm always looking for guests. So if you wanna get some scoop on one of the shows that I'm trying to track down potential guests for you need to be on, Twitter and my Instagram, which you don't wanna miss out on is at Kate. Casey CA now next week. I've got two special episodes coming one is with Deborah Newell from dirty, John and Laura Richards from true crime profile both wondering shows, we're going to talk about dirty, John. And then I'm arranging another episode about reviews of different reality shows and one of those. Reviews is going to be Lindsey Lowe hands new show on MTV called Lindsey Lowe hands beach club, and my friend from kindergarten Michael Kimmel who is a big time theater director in New York City is reviewing it. We've already been talking about it because they did like a pre show. This is what I will tell you Lindsay. Lohan looks like she's already had two facelifts, and she's probably not even forty years old yet, she has smokers voice. She's like so skinny she's like a rail and all of these young millennials are talking about how she's an icon, and they're all going to work at this resort in Greece. It's like Vander pump rules adjacent. It's gonna be a good show. So try to watch that prep show before the season one episode premieres this coming next week. So have a great week.

Theresa Danielle Julius Michael Marty Ciragan Joe Margaret Netflix Mark Harry Casey Dan dob baseball Byron bay Humpty doo New Jersey Melissa Bravo Tony Joe James beard Hugh Jackson Andrew Rubin America Australia
Liz Plank: "A new vision for mindful masculinity"

Recode Decode

59:37 min | 1 year ago

Liz Plank: "A new vision for mindful masculinity"

"All world changing innovation starts with trailblazers people with ideas just enough to work go deeper into the history and exciting future of industry Disruptions that shape our lives and unexpected ways with the trailblazers podcast from Dell Technologies bestselling author Walter Isaacson alone with extraordinary guests will explore or the people end tech. That are moving for. Listen to trailblazers wherever you get your podcasts or at Dell technologies dot com slash trailblazers hi. I'm Megan and I produced Nice. Try from curbed a podcast about utopia a place that is perfect and does not exist. I hosted by Avery trauman. The season starts in Jamestown with the first permanent English settlement in North America and ends in the fictional her land a world with no men in sight. Nice try has been recommended as a must-listen by the New York Times The New Yorker esquire vulture time and more apple podcasts. Even named it one of the top podcast of twenty nineteen but don't just take their word for it. Check it out for yourself. The entire season is available. Now find find out more and binge it on apple podcast spotify or your favorite podcast APP. Hi I'm Carey Swisher editor at large ARECO. You may know me as someone who is toxic masculinity had side effects but in my spare time. I'm just a reporter and you're listening to Rico decode a podcast about power change and the people you need to know around. The tech industry were part of the box media. PODCAST network today in the Red Chair. Is Liz plank. A journalist here. Vox Media. Who hosts the show considerate on facebook facebook and Co hosted the podcast divided states of women? She's also the author of a new book called for the love of men a New Vision for mindful masculinity. Okay wow that is liz handful of names gotta say we love to talk about so introduce yourself you we worked together. Ah I'm your fan girl I see you somewhere. Yeah ox off as I just have paralysis. Do I ignore you properly. Yes you do walk in mind and it makes me feel very special. Could and like I'm one of the Chosen One. Yeah I'm a huge fan number one on my on other aimless okay so I hope I ignore you properly because I was in my sister. Who is that you know I? I don't have assisted. All these people is interesting can can we. I was saying something to someone and they're like. Oh let's let's have your staff meet my Steph your meeting my staff cares wishers Your team on the PODCASTS. who works on stuff like that but but none of them are my assistant store? Often do anything for me like that Solicit what your background. You started off at Mike or which is now gone on our had eh media now very now. Owner of New York magazine has of this Martin. That's means I am going to be double the trouble which is great timing so So anyway so go into your background. Did you started off. How did you get to Mike and Explain Mike for People who don't remember absolutely trying to forget it? Yes so I have a dream. My masters in London In gender theory and then I gender theory in gender yes so I have always been sort of a gender nerd in very interested in that field and I I started college is that which yes I did. I was a women's studies major and International Development Major for the money. I joke Then I moved to Seattle undisclosed economics To do a master's there and that's where actually the first time I wrote an article. It was twenty five Olympics. They're going to have female boxing for the very first time at the Olympics. And they wanted to force the women to wear skirts in the ring and they Justified this because they wanted those female athletes to look quote elegant and so I tweeted out to thirty nine. You know twitter followers. I can't believe how outrageous says and I'm always been an athlete and I was a boxing at the time and so it was very angry about that started a petition. wrote an article got published in the Huffington Post and then that was again a yes I cannot believe this. Exactly look EXAC- well it's pretty. I mean for for everything. The HUFFINGTON post you know is known for now. It was the first place that I was able to write and yeah I didn't get paid but I was just a student. At the time I was a research assistant You just ranked fairly shaky right and I and I was. I opened my eyes because at the time I was like Oh maybe I'll do a PhD. Maybe I'll go work in government and then I was like. Oh Wow this. Social media thing is a thing Oh and by the way the decision was overturned. The campaign was successful and so I moved to New York Mark. I started working as an intern of that. Ten employees at Mike and I was a feminist blogger. That was my officially my mic was a media company that was founded by Jacor was and Chris all check they were at the time sort of this idea of conservative in a Democrat coming together and it was a company formed by millennials so so the concept concept was at the time and I remember having the millennials. Don't read any different than regular people argue about this. Because he was saying money's wanted differently. I'm like Do they. I mean slightly differently. Obviously you know quicker faster kind of thing but the idea of snack contents. Some of it was quite good and it just was building tire company on him. Run it was sort of problematic right and I mean what happened is we all built this around the facebook model twenty thirteen. We're getting all these US and and we built I you know AH build the video team there and we had a very successful Video series called flip the script. We got thirty three million views. Are I talk about that. Because that's sort of just popped onto onto the scene and it's happened several times. There was one company that. CBS bought They had Wall Street something or other they get popular. Don't actually is interesting but you flip. The script was very suddenly like whoa new ways to deliver video and information to be fresh and exciting and I know it sounds crazy but there was a show called Old West fifty seven years ago from CBS or one of them and they had all the young reporters in one of them was someone who's not young anymore but he was really funny that all the young reporters look at the beginning of the of the show. was people running down the street to the newsroom. At that's their that's their version of young Maurice Safer. You don't want him to do that but because he had hip but but it was funny. Run Down and get to the newsroom where he put on like who does that. I remember being a younger run down the news into Washington noodle lately did have what. What do you think worked flipped the screws? It really did get like you got some. You've got some interviews and everything like that. What do you think was the appeal of it? I think on a personal level. I'd never done video before I'd never done digital video before and we really approach this As as beginners and I was working though with a production team that was amazing. An incredibly talented would come from box. Actually that was the whole story at the time You you know Regina Same phone as Billy Disney. Still my some of my closest friends and collaborators. They were just brilliant and the great thing too was that Mike was a jungle It was with all the difficulties of the media at the time going in there felt like going to high school and being given projects and being like just run with it right right and we will give you care do yes. I was given a lot of creative freedom to tell stories in a in a sort of strange curious way sometimes and and especially talk about really serious topics like racism As phobia sexism in a way. That was funny in a way that didn't make people sort of the whole point of everything I do is really to disarm armed people and instead of running away from conversations that they really need to be talking about making it accessible and comfortable and maybe fun we'll race is ever let's be clear or not but neither phobia of course but the the converse you're trying to do it in a way that was it was interesting too. It was always. It's interesting to watch. I remember thinking these are interesting and then you have hired by. Vox I did. Yes between sixteen election I created the show with Joe Pose Ner Called Two thousand sixteen and our view with the Prime Minister of Canada were started. Oh thank you so much. Thank into the cafe. We were right now but Yeah there's a lot a lot of change and Yeah we we did at my land which is a Montreal owned restaurant in the East village and yeah before I even knew how the printers worked. I remember to write this article about our interview. Being interrupted by why people begging him to run for president bidding the prime minister to run for president. And Yeah that was the first of many episodes where we were on the campaign trail I was able to go to Trump Tower and ask donald trump questions and and really I think have a pivotal perspective on the election. And again we got to do some pretty wacky things that that a lot of people didn't feel that they could take a risk writing. And then you start the show Aimed at women. Yes so explain that so you were doing that. And then you did The podcast divided states of women and and consider it was had a lot of those topics. Yes both of the last shows that at vox media have really been again in in the interest I think of these difficult conversations that we're having is to to not just be insider bubble and to be talking with other progressives about how they feel or really you you know reaching out across the aisle that sort of super basic cliche saying but but that actually is is incredibly important right now so divisive women I co hosted this. What he thought Herzog a really good friend of mine? Who's Republican and we sort of would have conversations about a ton of things and release the view ex exactly and we start realizing why I would maybe Having these conversations and maybe if we were able to have these conversations would encourage other people as well and so and then it turned into a comcast video series which was superfund of traveling across the country and even in our last episode going Iceland Where I tried to go save man and They did not want to be saved for talking Lena Day like parental leave all the welfare. Yeah that comes with living in this country on earth so And then yeah considerate. It was sort of a you know a follow up to that show with facebook. Who is again interested in hosting these civil quote conversations and we just close out with Cory Booker are coming into the studio doing a talk with us? The microwave challenge. You've heard about that later. What I wanted one hundred percent I wanted to challenge? Challenge is perfect for you okay. Great Perfect I'm not going to challenge. I did one time. I did the ice bucket. You did Jennifer beals got Joe it okay. Can I ask you only general deals. Will I listened to and I felt bad after. He's not a challenge challenged. You're okay. Gotcha you explain your challenges. What is new straight face challenges basically after make you laugh so you stare straight into the camera and you were not to laugh or smile smile and I do all kinds? It's just a tick tock turn Well I thought that that's how we could end the talk with Lynn breaking the FI. You being like so you own all their data and me. I feel like that's on brand. Okay but all right so to speak. No we're not GONNA do that. No no trek leave here. I'm taking my son to get his driver's license. That's what I'm doing. That's the Louis Challenge. Can he actually passed. His driving. Test is his his physical drive. Get this up so And then the other challenge from sorry The microwave challenge. So that's where you basically it's I would have to show you but you lean on your hand and you're sitting on the ground and you turn your hand hand. Your entire body starts moving and with the angle of the camera. It looks like you're you're just on a microwave trey and I did it with Cory Booker's up with this. This crowd knows what presidential candidates do please like. The Bill Clinton ever has been Clinton answered questions about his underwear. It's gone downhill gone downhill. But I okay sure. Yeah I'M GONNA I'm GonNa leave you to that okay. Those questions. I'm not GONNA do those. I did not get people to judge to do a challenge. That's why we need you. You all right. So here's the deal so you did these things but you're you you even ongoing thematically parts of your yours has been towards around Gender yes politics politics essentially politics gender issues and stuff like that. So what got you to write. The book was the yeah so impetus look I. This was I started writing this book for years ago. So this was pre trump pre The world was Very different I was literally having Raymond with my sister and The East village in we're looking at the menu you and She was an you know. A man exact woman you the next book the next book why. I'm just teasing. That was a joke. People that you're that you're so witty. I never knowing the menu were having difficulties with our our lives. Like you know every effort working woman on and then exactly the ones they're stuck in that orientation and and so my sister saying I wish I wish we could just make a menu. Choose a man you know. Make a man of the noodles shoes no intimacy issues and you know Very very comfortable with powerful women and all this stuff and we start laughing. We're like Oh yeah. There should be guidebooks how to be a man and then I say the woman should write it because men are always telling us what to do. Do we all laugh and then I just have this sort of light bulb moment. Oh that's that's a book that I should write as I'm writing the book I'm reporting. I'm researching I'm speaking to men about this topic. The entire framework of the book actually changed so the idea had a spicy Rahman was how to be a man a woman's Guide and it was there was a sex chapter. Stopped doing this. We hate when you do that because it was but kind of like a woke version was again. Not Fins is in thirty days exactly and so then but again as I'm talking to man I'm realizing Oh. Wow you are hurting us because you are hurting and I started basically approaching the interesting thing because I think that all the time two sons. Yeah so I know a lot about that right but matt go ahead but not that men are victims. Bullets go through the left lane. You're thinking on that well. The Patriarchy hurts. Everybody Rain Right. That's something something that Bell hooks You know has been saying for years and has written about and there's a lot of scholarship about it but when you look at the mainstream conversation around feminism it's mostly based on this idea of how are women being hurt by the Jerky Howard men hurting women and of course those things are true right. You can't find a single woman who's not been asked assaulted. You know some form of trauma due to a man in her life and that is all real. The thing that I didn't know and didn't understand understand having had a mass an entire academic Sort of you know career if you want to call it in gender theory is that I never read a book about. Oh Man I was never assigned a course well how to raise boys. I'm trying Jack couple books around parenting. I have them all right but when did that they come to you that. There's no need to protect boys because I think there's so many books out there again. There's a mentioned conversation about how we need to protect girls all the things you need to protect girls from right but there isn't as much of a conversation about how we need to protect boys and we don't it's sunny. There's a lot of parenting very hard about raising raising men. In in as you know my theory is lesbian should raise all the band. But I wouldn't go into great idea. They are woke and masculine at the same time. Really quite interesting. Not all of them teasing but But I remember thinking about it quite a lot because of a messaging and how I was thinking of not their pain necessarily Zarrella. But how could they be better man and you know what's interesting about couples. I date women and came out as queer. While I was writing the book. I learned the most about men when I started dating. Women learn so much about the shit. Basically that I had the you know the predetermined rules that I was bringing into the power dynamics I was bringing into And my relationships I interviewed therapist For the book and I said what's number one problem that women have in relationships with Matinee instr- couples and they say. Oh they they don't. They're not sort of enough. They're don't you don't say what they need and I said wasn't a more problem for men And then it's basically that they try and fix and they don't listen So when there are female partner comes to them with an issue you. They're they're causing trying to fix it for her and she doesn't need them to fix it for her. She just needs to listen and ask you know gay man she said. It's it's a lot of internalized homophobia in all of that is is really difficult in those relationships and asked what about you know. Gay Women And she said those are actually the easiest couples just personality issues. There's no and again and this is not to say that there are no issues in lesbian couples. Eto there yes but it's pretty interesting that when you have two women don't you know there's something interesting that happens when so you don't have this patriarchal internalized idea of what masculinity is feminine. Easy is and and I didn't realize until I went on this chivalry diet and yeah I started this dating in a different way. How much of these power dynamics were corrupting my own relationship? And that I wasn't saying what I needed. Because you know the guy was I don't know paying for the check. And it has a a radical feminists who grew up in a feminine household. I never thought that these things were affecting me but they were right okay so you decided to write this book. You decided to do it so when we get back around talking about how you did it because what's really interesting is how people go through Process can you do a lot of research here. I was expecting a very different book. So none of these books. Of course sure you know yeah Blah Blah Blah Blah. Yes absolutely and I am extremely data focused night love when we get back talk about that and more with Liz plank. She's she's a journalist. Who wrote a new book for Vox Media? It was new book called for the love of men a New Vision for mindful masculinity she is going to define mindful masculinity to me and toxic masculinity when we get back after a quick break. This episode is sponsored by masterclass masterclass offers more than seventy classes taught by the masters themselves with subjects ranging from Poker Violin. If you're searching for a perfect holiday gift right now you should consider masterclass. Their classes like writing and humor with David Sedaris. sedaris one of my favorite people chest with Gary Casper. I cannot play chess and the class. 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Who took an innovative route to the public markets? A direct listing from New York Stock Exchange. It's just one way or the NYSE and its parent intercontinental exchange create new ways for entrepreneurs to take next bold step without direct listed companies. Get all the benefits of going public without the capital raise liquidity. What did he for early? Investors Currency for mergers and acquisitions brand visibility and access to the world's best network of companies the New York Stock Exchange. You bring it to life. We we bring to market visit. NYSE DOT com slash direct listing to obtain resources to explore NYSE direct listing. We're here with Liz plank. She is a vox media. Journalists who also has written a new book called for the love of men a New Vision for mindful masculinity. So you're here. He interested in this. This is a a is it a guidebook you call a guidebook for men or how would you. I think it's a it's a resource. It's a tool and what I tell a lot of you know. I've had criticism from your. I'm aiming it at men and I was told. No Man is going to read this book by several publishers. And what I'm seeing. Is that a lot of men are buying it. But but I'm also really created this book so that women can give it to them in their lives they don't have to do the emotional Labor That so many women are doing in their relationships with and and So it's a it's a it's a place to start and build your own conversation around masculinity and it's just it's the tip of the iceberg because yes we talk about raising raising boys in in parenting Books and there is not to say that no one has ever talked about masculinity but what I found is that there's a lot more comfort uh-huh right talking about how we raise girls free from gender ratio to there's a ton but one thing you know perfect examples when I give talks I'll often start the talk by saying you know who here has ever told their daughter that she can do anything that a boy can do and everyone probably raises their hand right. It's two thousand nineteen. A lot of parents are proud to say you know encourage her to go into engineering veneer into coding and be like quote unquote bad ass right. It makes her bad ass to do those manly kind of traditional things and say okay who here's told their son that he can do anything that a girl can I do and then suddenly I have you there in what way what was I can't because you're not good enough. Maybe I try hard and perhaps you achieve the heights right tastic that I met. I said you must notice it. Parents aren't comfortable with that. I mean I spoke to parents who were extremely progressive. And we're saying Oh yeah my daughter and wanted to be a big feminist using you know the word feminist and then you know my son was holding a bouquet of flowers. You know. I told him don't do that. You know and they think that they're protecting. It's interesting because when you run into several different times to focus on my kids. One is understanding of their a position which I don't want them either at the same time. There could be a lot of too much of that but I do like was walking with one of my sons. Both my sons are quite tall and big Wasted he's did a very tall and big donor and they were. We were walking in the street and I kept looking behind me and my my son was like what are you doing. And I'm like well. I could get raped or like I'm watching Ching for my safety and then I thought Oh my God you don't even think of it like every day your life. You can walk around pretty certain you're not going to get attacked. You know it's not in your calculation you might get attacked but it. It was an interesting thing and I realize other people don't have the experience you do walk through the world and that was a good moment and then the other time is when When when my youngest son was in school well and he liked the color pink he did you know and he did? And then he didn't and we lived in San Francisco Very Progressive School and I was fascinated and I wasn't like made made that big a deal of it but it was interesting to me was tracking how pervasive society changed chips. I tried everything like India. Loves the color pink and orange and you know and you should like if you like it and I've saved the hat. Actually which is interesting. That had he used to like to was thinking it was interesting. I didn't particularly want. If you didn't WANNA wear it. I wasn't gonNA make him wear makeup makeup GEICO social point about it with him or bang over there with it but it was really fascinating to watch or we can't watch prince videos anymore. We can't do this and it was really leave fascinating. Where are you getting these messages? Because I'm not giving. I'm not giving you any messages at all. I wasn't even doing the other ones. And so it was fascinating sedating and then once you put them on they would like them. Oh totally which was interesting. And that's where this conversation gets interesting right so we talked to boys and say don't be the aggressor don't be the perpetrator perpetrator of violence. And the vast majority of perpetrators of violence in America and across the world are male. Yeah the vast majority of victims of violence are also male right right so there's don't the perpetrator don't be violent but the thing that we don't often acknowledge is how there's violence between men That men when they are dealing with pain don't only hurt women in their lives. We know that you know the single greatest threat to the woman's basically her male partner There's there's a lot of domestic acid violence that happens towards women. There's also a lot of violence happens against other men and then it's men hurting themselves. We have a just horrific a Suicide epidemic happening in this country. And we have that suicide epidemic. This happening in the worst way in places in you know in trump's America rain in places where we're seeing particularly white man you know want to elect the man that they feel like they can't be anymore this idealized masculinity right of this guy who's rich rich and sleeps with porn stars. And is this tough you know. Alpha asking lane hyper masculine. Sort of symbol And so I find that the point of entry into these conversations has often been the masculinity is the problem and I'm more interested in a conversation where masculinity is a solution where we we can have conversations about yes. Don't be danger to other people but also how are you collateral damage in this patriarchal masculinity. We want to put a pin in the victims. Because they're not comparing like compare in and I don't want to harp on that but it's the dangers are much fire for women in terms of suicide in and things like that but and also especially stuff online you know the effect of on concert and bullying and things like that but men suffer from it absolutely. I mean but the that's a little bit about the idea of and we'll get to meet to and stuff like that in a second but okay so mascot the idea mescaline toxic masculine and mindful Mac. Define those for me. So so I had the word toxic lenny. One hundred seventy four times in my book and I ten days before my book went to print mitre was super thrilled that I came to her and I said I want to take out the word toxic out out of the book and she said no way and said. I need to do that because I had this conversation with. David Hogg That I was this is really lurking. Exactly the the leader of the You know one of the leaders of of the park movement and so I asked him what. What's the connection between toxic masculinity and gun violence and he looked at me and he said I don't think you should use that word and then I was like Whoa Eh and he said I know what you mean when you use that word? But they don't know what you mean right word pointing to this idea of something to something's wrong exactly and the people who are not afraid of that word probably don't even need this book. The people who actually do need this book and we're doing the most harm either to others or to themselves Will be turned off by that book because of all of the propaganda. That's out there and so I wanted to come up with with a positive term and frame this conversation again in in in a positive way in the way that we frame the conversation around you know feminism in workplace. We didn't say you have something toxic about your feminine about the way that your woman we said. Yes and there are news Yeah Women Are I. I mean this is a whole other part of this conversation of how women also interviewed. Tommy Laron some conservatives and how they play into all of this so women are not necessarily. I was on a show with her which I did a favor for Steve Health. How I wanted to reach a car? I was thinking I'm GonNa go full as being on this lady. I'm not gonNA besides her being just dumb like that. was that was most defensive part but the I just was like I was like. I'm going to kill you Steve. I really it was Matt Stevens. It just get off to in a room and I gave her the death stare. I think she's I don't know Do you have a a lot to say whatever so anyway Yeah talks amazingly little. Tammy Long Tommy actually. There's a Typo in the book where she's called. Tom And that was not on purpose but great if that has to change. I'll be great store. That would be great story. Yeah anyway go ahead Sunni way up you know no toxic. That's going to change. We need a better term so I prefer the word idealized masculinity because I think that it is. We're approaching again this conversation in the the same way that we approach feminism where we say you've taken on a lot of these assumptions or these roles that you might want to keep right. I Love Pink. I'm wearing pink right now. I'M GONNA keep that even though I probably was thrown a you know this caller in a million different ways as a child I I'm going to keep on to that. Don't want to hold onto the fact that I'm constantly doubting myself in meetings things and that I'm not asking for a promotion or that. I feel insecure. I don't WanNa hold onto that so I think that it's the same conversation that we need to have with men. I think a lot of men engage in bad behavior that they don't want engage in and one of the ways that this really came across from me is Michael Kimmel. Does a million talks around. The country talks to so many different. What about this? And he does this sort of exercise with them where he says. What's a good man? Just throw out things so they start to hang standing up for the little guy being protecting the people that I love and being there for the purple that I love being dependable being loyal and then he says okay. What's a real man and that's when they start shouting get laid they dominate? Get Him Win at all costs. These vary right violent aggressive definitions of being a man and and what really came across me about. When when I heard that exercise was there are a lot of men who want to be good but they are corrupted by society that rewards them when they're bad? Well it's interesting because you know when you talk to you know venture capitalist in Silicon Valley and others. I was just with one when they were talking about something. I think a lot when we did the Ellen Pao coverage which is really interesting is every woman who we did a heavy amount of coverage on recode which I thought was critically important. Yeah but most of the women all of them had a story eight stories of sexual harassment. Some of them very minor. Some of them you know it was it was it was a sliding scale of awful essentially and all of the men came up to me and said I had no no I D and I. That's terrible like they wanted to do something in a meeting and they didn't have the tools so it was an I sort of. This is really interesting. Why don't these good they call them Goodman? No and why do these women not tell them. And why don't they ask Amazon's whole because Patriarchy is a pyramid scheme patriarchy. Is it tells you this is what you're going to get if you ascribe to all of these not ideals and these behaviors and then you're going to get rewarded for that one percents man do right. Donald Trump became president being the most vile version of being of of of what a man can be in our society. Did Sean Spicer get rewarded. Boarded did SCARAMUCCI right in his greentop on dancing with the stars it truly is remarkable. And you know I really wanted happy. Though I don't know do you think I think he's. He looked happy. I was trying to say. Should I am on right and no one knew what to do. Because it's so to me so sad and and he was receiving he was a respected. Did figure it. I mean in the Republican Party and he used the army. He's just really had. This stature made me not amongst progresses is but in the political world and now he's on the stars with Miranda from the office like she's not even like the best account on the office. It's really To me I think he looked good but the go ahead go he did. It must not work in the worst place on earth. Good dancing and I wanted this book to be have intersection like did you like did you watch them dance just like anyone who tries to dance. I'm I'm with down with any. Don't want to talk with me killing me no. I like watching me dancing anyway. Move along you're never gonNA get me dancing publicly anyway. I don't believe in public dance. Version of footloose footloose media. Would you could veer into though is being mocked for the idea of like woke masculinity which can be you know Seattle or San Francisco L.. Mary's you know a very like woke bro. But isn't really woking the you know what that's hard to do and then on the other side you have sort of Jordan Peterson Angle. Of what that thing. That's a whole thing and then there's the there was there was the men's movement where they would go and be manly with each other itself so there's all kinds of conflicting things but I think it's a very hard of it when I think about diversity when people talk about this. It's not just women that are being packed is people of Color. Our and men who don't WanNa behave like that forced into the behavior and I was always thinking of those because I was not as the most important part of the equation of fixing but that it was like there's a lot of men you're leaving out of of the techie image and stuff like that. At least right I mean you know what's interesting is that I dated those you know guys who wear this looks like D. Shirt on Instagram And then treat you like shit and private right and so that was really the worst. I learned the hard way. And you know what would have been great. is instead of promoting. How much of an ally? He has to the women in his his life and getting cookies for that if he had examined his own masculinity and the way that he again I mean this is like private but he would you go to control and manipulate and he acted kind of almost as a manager in my life and that's because he needed to be in control of of what I was doing in order to feel like a man and He needed to be in control of her finances Because he needed to feel like a man him wearing this. Amnesty shirt looks like dinar remarkably. Make my life better under But him examining how gender has impacted him and this is really again. A lot of people might say. Well you're putting all this attention on man many victims. Why you're doing this women are so why are you putting the get all the attention so I think that they get the intention in all the wrong ways? There are getting the attention when they do horrible things. And there's this horrible. Will you know when you look at Jordan Peterson Tucker Carlson. There's this Tung. Young men are lining up for Jordan. Peterson he the most bestselling Canadian author of all time. Did you know who else is Canadian. Maxwell Margaret Atwood. He has sold more books in them. Combined that is staggering. And this is the part where I'm interested in an art. Do you think that men who fall prey to the alright Jordan Peterson and worked in their lazy. He's not the I mean he would he. He people in the outright thinks he's it's like all right Tom Do you think that those young isolated men right that even Steve Bannon admit minute to this right. That's how he built Breitbart. He used to work at a video game company and he said these isolated young men. We need to capitalize on them. They're looking looking gesture looking for goods and she gets to in cells exactly. Do you think that those victims because I would argue that they are Okay victims. I don't know I think. Unlike other people I take the time to read Jordan yes and so I see the appeal like I remember seeing the appeal of Donald trump by peel. Lots of ways. I try I'm not trying to be empathetic. People vote for him. I think they're wrong in many ways but I always almost because he liked to do an Ala carte version of this. And you don't don't have. Nobody is Alec hard as far as I can tell you when I knew Donald Trump's gonna get elected and this is also a star so I went to one of his last rallies and Pennsylvania. Nya with box. Only two women seventy eight. Ten women had an unfavorable view of Donald Trump. And we kept braiding that statistic over and over again Cable News and everything so I asked women. Voting voting for Thomas said seven out of ten women have an unfavorable view of Donald Trump. What would you tell women to vote for him? And this one woman looked at me and she said I think that's seven out of ten. Women have an unfavorable view of a lot of men. Yeah and that didn't make me sad for women and made me sad for men. That's when I knew our standard for men so low right that we are going to elect the again the most vile version and for your standard if we had a positive conversation around masculinity maybe we were recognized that most men want that to well. It was interesting when the was the stuff. Came Out What was interesting about that? Is I remember all my friends. Most of them are quite effeminate Not all of them but it was We're like we're GONNA get him on this. I'm like no no don't attack on this one and I was like be careful how you attack because you're telling women women who have Shitty boyfriends that they're stupid like for putting up with it and I was like don't you're insulting. Women put up with a lot of shit and they continue to. And that's a whole ball of wax to unravel in this society. But for sure you're not attacking him because he doesn't care but these women do and it was interesting. It was interesting any when we get back here and talk more about about what mindful masculinity means when we get back with Liz plank. WHO has a new book on the topic? Hi this this is Christian. I want to tell you about a new podcast from Ozzy. Called the future of ex post face. slesinger talks through the narrative. Like why the next privacy battle the over your your personal productivity score or white gamers are set to become prized employees or why laziness may get US promoted. It's not really a show about trends is all about what we can do right now. How to prepare for what's to come? Get ahead of your own future and subscribe to the future of X.. From Ozzy for free on apple podcasts. spotify or your favorite podcast APP. Hi this is Kara. Swisher host of recode decode. It's been an incredible two thousand nineteen for our show and we recently been honored with awards by Ad Week. They named Rico decode the best technology podcast of the year. And the podcast of two thousand nineteen over all so if you I haven't checked this out yet. There's never been a better time to start on Rico decode I interview people you need to know in tech and beyond about power change and big ideas some of my guests in two thousand nine hundred nine have included Edward Snowden Nancy Pelosi Ronan Farrow Meghan Piano and Kathy Griffin. You can find some of our favorite episodes at. Vox Dot com Tom Slash decode. That's Rico decode an award winning podcast that you should check out today. Thanks and happy holidays. We're we're here with Liz plank. As she is a journal Vox Media. it's a new book called for the love of men a new vision of mindful masculinity I think we all sort of know what talks masculine and he looks like with the Metoo. You cover the me too. Where are we with that now? From your perspective. Oh my Gosh We entered or seige-like I think they do And Look I think this is an incredible movement. It has made such a difference personally in my life personally my family And women that I know who are survivors. And I want this even to keep growing. I also want this movement to be gender neutral. So I've been in in brooms. I've been in rooms. I literally went to at times up. amazing dinner and like every other feminist There's a room full of women who are incredible magical and who are saying incredibly important things and then there's two guys in the back of the room that we think at the end And we say thank you to the male allies room. And it's you know some guys numbers boyfriend and then like a cousin and they go thumbs up and we go take it to the guys and then they go sure That that doesn't sound like a good strategy that doesn't sound like an effective way to reach men And so that is also. It was part of the reason for writing the book because I I just was looking inside these rooms. I said we get it. We totally get it. We're actually it's actually insulting to have to go on cable news over over and over and over again or to go on panels over and over and Oregon for women to waste their time and energy explaining why sexism as bad we all have experienced harassment or assault or immersion of this so I want this to be gender neutral because they think that first of all again a lot of people who are not women are victims are gender non binary people who are victims TMZ Trans people who are more likely to victims victims. There are men who are victims. I think Terry crews for example talking about his experience as a survivor and his experience an agent exactly in the industry again this power. These power dynamics it was incredibly important but if you notice there were a lot of men who are very uncomfortable comfortable with what he said and particularly because he is this sort of several uh Alpha Alpha Masculinity and so he you know you can look it up i. I don't want to name names because which I'm over that but there are many very famous man who have gone on the record. Humiliating him for doing that. And I think we need to examine that is extremely important. Anywhere from the victims. Thing is the idea of how you make a mindful because the word mindful certainly loaded. Yeah the second part is that who are you because one of the things that I think should be calm has been Critical of not you necessarily but like a lot of white ladies telling men had act like this is not a. It's not a mixed racial lines. There are all kinds generalize or age line stuff like that and part of I think the criticism of the me too movement again. This you know or of the conversation that we have around sexual assault. What is this sort of punitive this idea that if you put all these men in prison we're GONNA somehow solve the problem which women of color people of color no that that is? You know. We're not we're not achieving in any way a better society. If you put more people in jail we actually need to get people out of there and so I I agree. That's a white women tend to perhaps not having trouble. Well there's a whole rich and poor absolutely and that's why all colour absolutely and that's why I really want this to be intersectional. It's absolutely vital adult. This conversation starts him an intersectional perspective. I have these VIGNETTES Across the book with men who quote unquote don't fit into the definition of idealized masculinity. I I start with Thomas. Page may be who's incredibly thoughtful writer and author on all things masculinity who happens to be trans I have an interview with. DRC CHARRINGTON who is is gay black in a wheelchair at the intersection. Of all these different identities I also interviewed my friend Nico who is actually Indigenous and he talks about this cross violence right that indigenous men are not benefiting from any of the rewards of the Patriarchy and he talked about how avenue the most helmet. Yes marginalized and indigenous manner actually experiencing higher levels of violence from white women to In terms of reproductive You Oh you know freedom. And that's why again this conversation. Not just around the me too around abortion rights. I mean I've challenged man who are running for president to say how they have benefited from abortion rights or reproductive justice in this country because we can be sure that there's a man standing on that stage who is able to stand on that stage because his partner was able to space they they were able to space how many children they want and space them according to their lives and so we've had Wendy Davis. We've had Jackie Speier. We've had female politicians go. Oh publicly with incredibly private vulnerable stories of their own abortions and where Mike Sally. Excuse me yes there you go. So where the stories stories about men. Why aren't they if the right to choose? Has Benefited millions of women. Unless one guy did all of that it's also benefited millions of men. And so so I think that we really benefit everyone benefits from making this conversation around feminism. Gender equality me to sexual assault abortion to really making these conversations gender-neutral here. We have a president is just like the for narcissistic yes post and toxically. It's not even enough to encompass what's happening. Yeah I mean imagine if Donald Trump had gone to therapy never the entire. I don't think it's possible. What if his a father had gone to therapy? I is hard and bordering on I mean right so I don't think it's I think there's some people just had people get there and it's not a phone call or anything else I think it's a function of some people are but that's still the model right. What does it say like here? You have a book. Tiny about mindful masculine. And the person who's running our country's mindful would not be the first word that would pop for sure I think that as in many respects not just in terms of masculinity and gender in terms of obviously his positions on race on I mean Trans Issues Sexual Orientation I mean everything that he stands for and against is giving us a really good backdrop about a you know where we wanna go as the society. But it's not him like everyone's always like he's not the problem but you know we put a mirror to like that's what it looks like for whatever group you marginalized me and Dan and I know I get the Oh everyone's whining but one of the things I talk about with Tekle awed reason why twitter's and safe because the people who designed it never were unsafe so it's a very very simple frame not men or women the people who designed it never happened and then let us look at the statistics of these companies. Do you know what we have to do. Then we have to talk about trickle down down Dick Right we have to talk about coming back to you. Can you can attribute that to me. I don't write a trickle down economics. Economic the poll that the Ridge want to implement these policies making the poor thing that they're gonna get something out of it they don't Donald Trump wants you to think that his model masculinity is the model that men you will get rewarded that if you act this way you don't right. We have nowadays interested. They're gonNA get these next. I mean truly We're going to see that house of cards fall apart art but no just Giuliani. I don't know about well. Yeah I mean I don't even want to try and make predictions writes But we will all be watching this but we have to talk about how these policies again coming back to. I mean this is dying of Whiteness Right. John Muscles entire book is about this about the ways that all of us are hurt by these policies by trump but white men are particularly particularly really hurting as a result of these policies. So if you look at again. The case of suicide. The gaze of men life expectancy Jordan Peterson and these outright movements are are built. I mean I see it in my all of my mentions they say feminism's not necessary. Men Don't live as long as women. Do you know why men don't live as long as women. Because we don't live in gender equal societies because as of the Patriarchy if you go to Iceland. It's the place in Europe. The country in Europe that has the smallest gendered life expectancy so men actually live longer in societies that the gender equal men live longer and feminine societies. You know what the antidote to male suicide is women working so cross history when we've looked at economic downtrodden way. Look at recessions when we look at when things are bad. There's a direct correlation with men unfortunately committing suicide and dying from suicide. Because if you're only thing the the only thing that you're good at in society is being the provider which is by the way still the definition you ask every man can ask your male producer number one thing that they say because they don't have anything else to say which makes me so sad right. Why is that the only thing that you think that you have purpose in life? It's interesting I I just my son about this. He's more comfortable being being not the provider. What did he say he's like? I'd make an excellent wife. I said you great color is going to see and I don't know if you make an excellent hospice. Yes interesting thinks he. Interestingly was talking about that men die sooner this is and I am trying to get him to the. He's just joined the debate club. which I think it'll be interesting for him to understand how to argue? Do you properly. But one of the things is. Why don't you think that is like what do you think? The reasons are barely laid out in in the book. Because I against against all my mentioned so I die so we should not worry. That's the payment at the end and those that don't die yes lose their On dancing dancing with no no not estrogen Just you lose men lose testosterone and women Kinda yes I mean equal yes and therein allies about to Saas Toronto saucer on. There's hardly any studies again coming back to the the need for a positive conversation around masculinity I could hardly any studies that were had positive framing about the benefits of of testosterone all of the academic research or the vast majority of it is focused. On what how it makes you lie more makes you steal more high makes you more violent testosterone. It does make you seek status so there is this thing where to Sasha. Ron Is correlated with me. Basically people who have seeking more status it is not correlated with violence. If you take out two straight out of a sex offender if you could literally cutoff He's not more likely to to to not go out and rape again there are. There's a wealth of research and data out there and we have so many lies about men in our society because there's a lot of pop science around it just the narrative the narrative which is really interesting and I find it one thing I will push back. I don't think it goes away and I think people list narrative is probably the strongest. Ah Except for hating the other And being at fear base things I think Humanity this narrative between government is quite quite. Oh permit tractable. Yes and that's why it's so important for us to have this conversation to dispel the myth that there's a gender war that's not women versus man and I was always I believe that Billie Jean King Bobby Riggs EP. Every everything it does. But we've created those differences. Differences gender is actually made up And Sex even is sure biological bits a spectrum too we if you look again coming back to data and people can dig into it if they read the book but if you look at us as children the brain is a Unisex Oregon right. We're actually fundamentally very similar. That's more differences amongst you and me as women than and there are between a man and a woman in our society. If you generalize those differences we create this differences were shirt we give a lot of importance to gender. Was the first question that you ask someone when they tell you they're pregnant right. I was a boy girl right. These gender reveal parties which are insane. People I'm sorry I'm not but I can take responsibility For I'm just about to have another baby so my my girlfriend's pregnant and I did a girl but nonetheless. Here's the deal so excited by the they were like you can have a gender reveal bill. Mike would even eat at what time of course I had a genre reveal party party. I don't if I'm GONNA have a kid I needed to bank in. All of them are tinge. I'm having all the kids are perfect I can come over and visit lots accused talk about masculinity So yeah we're obsessed with gender. We we really if if you meet someone and you can't figure out if they're a woman or a man you're gonNA talk about it. A lot of kids dress differently. Insure I'm sure it definitely bothered. It's even bothers people which is interesting was much more easier to do that. It's still you can see discomfort The other part is the when you do have kids there are I think about this nature. It's the nature versus nurture thing but there is nature things. Sure absolutely. There's you know and I I I a hesitate to say it doesn't. There are not differences with aggression with. I don't have a girl yet so I don't see and I do. You think I happen to be more aggressive girl. I was little but it was interesting raising boys because there's definite Things that I think are nate. Churn Churn Right yes so I'm obviously not saying that we're all there's no difference between size I kept thinking like the Strip sure And and yet those differences I absolutely exist. But what we're seeing is that there's a fundamental shift. I mean you know and you again zone. The buckman psychologists was wooden. We'll notice these differences. You know from from seven or eight years old The way that we again raise boys and girls Bentley just really creates these huge differences. And when when you examine things and you take away all of you know the environment they were raised in and all those differences like and one thing I just want to end on or I don't know this but But so the the the gender gap in education isn't perfect example. We do have these very big differences in the way the girls performance. Cool in Boise School. Do you know where gender gap completely disappears. We're in resource resource heavy environments so enrich schools Boys and girls basically do the same in poorer and more marginalized communities the gender gap really widens and so to me. This again opens up the importance of having a conversation about how boys need support right. There's so many parents who literally believe that. Giving boys support is bad for them. The you have to rough in toughen them up right if you give them too much. You're you're coddling them and you're going to make them feel safe right there. You know the interesting. Yeah exactly and we don't have feminine. Things is all rooted in Misogyny. And because we don't like you know that's why we're comfortable with girls acting like boys boys acting like girls because we fundamentally lamented believe that what is masculine is superior in more acceptable and so we have to highlight that we have to value women in our side which value the feminine and the collaborative empathetic. Thank these quote unquote traditional feminine qualities. And we have to let everyone be whoever can I swear they wanna be very right So at least I'll never say it again. Don't tell him I said that I I really think. And this is fundamentally mindful masculinity means consciously approaching approaching your gender. It's like Murray Condo for your gender. Just go in there. See what you want. It's does this spark joyful. You does this pink Thomas Bar Jewelry yes it does. I want to keep wearing pink. Does societal pressures. There's a million. There's a million but we create them right. These things we invented and for the larger society. If a I think they get your and get shot foot rates it's badly but we've changed. Those things ragged girls used to get shit for you know doing things that they now can do and we have different different role models. You have different movies. We have different books right the same thing for boys when he the same thing for everyone. We need everyone to have a full way of expressing themselves in the world and and again I keep bringing him to end but your questions are so good so the best way it was it was explained to me was by one of the psychologists who did the guidelines were looking at how we were approaching men in terms of clinicians and psychologists and he said genders like a Swiss army knife. So you have a bunch of tools you have if you have the magazine Corkscrew. And it's not this conversation around a masculinity is not about taking away. Some of the tools is about adding more giving more ways for boys to express other things than through aggression and violence. I think the boys ended up to your point showing more aggression and violence. Because that's the only way that they can really express themselves a lot of grown men are you. How are you feeling there either? Angry angry or not angry. There's not sad point. They get fewer emotions. And that's you know to say that men are inherently less Emotional have less S. of desire and gone anyways crazy. They're gonNA find intimacy in ways that they can and often it means yeah not great. Yeah it's interesting. I spent my boys so funny. Everyone's like oh now. That was our teens. They don't talk to you. I'm like Oh my God. I wish my boys talked to molest them. I don't always. I love it very explicit. Their emotional you don't fight you. I don't want to quash sort of There are some of the stuff I don't want them to have to be anything. We try very hard absolutely no pick take with you. I mean I'm not but it's hard for them for sure when any of them cry they definitely have a problem with it. We're not crying family but we're relatively It's interesting it's an interesting question when you go forward but it's it's well worth reading knowing knowing about it. It's an interesting book I was surprised by it. I thought it would be more pop. You know I'm not a big pop science sane but Is it really worth reading. It's an interesting book. I'm GonNa see if I can get my sons to read it. We'll see the color on the color on the book will work for them really yellow and blue no gender. No it's not it's not really Alina. Should it be darker like black number. I don't know insane like I don't know how they market those Body washes demand putting steel and they just is going for like one of the old spice ones. Where did they come wolf? Yes take what they make fun of my son's Yeah that's get the wolf. Bain versus sister flirty currently looking forward to buying clothes for a little girl and say I know because they're all horrible. Yeah they are going to dress her on in just celine Dion gender-neutral line. You Know Pinos doing it. There's all kinds of people can Canadian. Yeah I'M GONNA candidate tonight. You are going to Toronto seriously. Yes what do live pivot with with such seven and man's got Galloway. Oh well bring it up bring it up going up here. They're doing a live okay. We're GONNA be talking about your friend. Justin Trudeau Brownstown. You'll explain that to me later and we're GONNA talk about a lot of things When we get up there we're going to? We're very excited saying anyway. Thank you so much Liz Liz plank. She has written a book called for the love of men a new vision of mindful masculinity. I recommend despite the word mindful that you read it anyway. Thank you for coming on the show. You can follow me on twitter. Akara Swisher my executive producer. Eric Anderson is Airi'q America. My producer Johnson is at hey hey. Es J. lives where can people find you online. They can find me gentle. Yes gender-neutral feminist. Sorry Wildlife I I'll take it again so feminist ambulance on Instagram seagrams on twitter I'm Lis- plank on talk. You know cares favorites. Stop the madness and hoping I'm waiting like fifteen minutes so it goes away so that'll be great you think. Oh hello. You're not you're young lady so you don't know how these things go. Mice means nice to meet hundreds of these things. Peach would've that lasts Jan.. I and I do Yo- there were so many so many so many someday facebook. Yes if you like this episode. We really appreciate it if you you shared it with a friend anyway thank YOU MS. Make sure to check out our other. PODCASTS recode media pivot and land of the giants just search for them in your podcasting App of choice thanks also to our editor Joel Ravi. Thanks for listening to this episode of Rico decode the off next week for the holidays not my choice but on Monday. We'll be sharing an episode of another. Vox podcast in this feet. And I think you'll really I like it so keep an eye out for that. We'll have one more episode this year. which will come out on Monday? December thirtieth until then happy holidays to all of you and thank you for a wonderful two thousand nineteen nineteen.

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Part One: The Birth of the Manosphere

Behind the Bastards

1:45:10 hr | 5 months ago

Part One: The Birth of the Manosphere

"My name is rita k. I am ellen bernstein brodsky. This is your grandmother. What's the matter with. Yo l and is a podcast about the relationship between grandmothers and grandchildren as would've said who wouldn't have wanted a jewish grab. Sometimes she accidentally livestreams like who's going to tell her up. Just hearing about this. Listen to call your grandmother on the iheartradio app apple podcasts or wherever you get filled by debts. Do you love a good story fantastic. Because each episode of storytime feature some of your favorite creators from youtube tiktok red and beyond sharing their most hilarious horrifying and cringe inducing stories. Peaking in i realized that she is talking to the doll head. Every week. I your host will mcfadden deliver a hot fresh tasty tale directly to your ear buds. And you don't even have to tip you. Listen storytime every wednesday on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to behind the bastards. The podcast where jamie loftus has just admitted to dogfighting jamie. How do you respond to these allegations that you made that you have dogs that fight i said i have. I have no dug in. And i didn't say that i have you have a dog in this fight that implies you have a job in another fight which implies you're a dog fighter jamie we're not gonna let these allegations go away. This isn't this isn't dropping being dog fighter and having a dog that fights and has a a revenue stream independent of me. That involves you know fighting on the weekends get. How would you describe. Plays your direct relationship to the dogfighting industry. Jamie how it okay I guess let me be perfectly clear. My dogfights right my fights but it's because is because he's aggressive and he's got some strong opinions. I don't personally benefit from and in fact it is taking my career actively my dog fighting career. Well controversial stances from jamie loftus e. Dogfighting i am robert evans. And this is behind the bastards podcast where he talked about the worst people in all of history. How are you doing in this february. Jin wary march day You know not great. I've started reading. Kathy cartoons. That is a horrible sign for your mental health. I really think that is. That is simple that i've hit some sort of all but i don't know what it is. And here's the thing i'm laughing you're laughing. I'm i see ac. i laugh. that's where i met. I think you and i might be on. Might be on a similar similar mental track right now because i have recently gotten back into reading the comics that i read as a kid. I've been going through the old. Calvin hobbes's some the old trotz. Yeah the classics. The classics no one ever actually had a problem. They just thought they did. I think i might get back into bloom county. I've been missing. I've been missing. May my weird eighties comedy lot. Making fun of donald trump in the old bloom. County's it's true. There's there's a. I've been Got my week really devolve into lolita ended and unlike out can do whatever i want and it turns out whatever i want is reading kathy comics for three straight days You know there's a whole week in kathy comics where she just went to see the big every day in the comic she just kept going and she loved the big chill and she campaigned for dukakis. That's what i learned about kathy. This week is e- all heartbreaking. Well jay you're tragic journey with. Kathy is actually a perfect ledin for our subject today. as i as i stated you know we're gonna be doing some book episodes and you and i are going to get into a real terrible book But not today today. We're going to talk about the manas veer. Oh no that's exactly can't be was afraid. Hooper exactly what kathy was about listeners. Some light one out of jamie's is when robert. This is going shatter pond myself up with candy three days. And you just take what i've got. I've earned Okay what is what is the man's fear sounds fucking spine we get to that. I'm going to explain why we're talking about this today before we get into the book that you and i are gonna talk about later this week. So on january twenty first twenty twenty one a non binary transfer him Twitter personality named lily. Simpson posted a tweet that went so viral. It inspired a whole bunch of articles in think pieces It's got something like a quarter of million shares. The tweet consisted of four images the cover of a book titled the sigma mail. What women really want now. The cover of this book features a man in a suit with a medieval sword as the cover art now naked that image were several screengrabs listing the five male archetypes which according to those screengrabs or according to those image macro or whatever Ranged from alpha males to omega males. Now i think pretty much everyone i know i know jamie. You're gonna hate this episode so much. Well okay the. This episode is revenge for the things that i imagine. You would have said if i told you that. Nestor mock knows. Nickname really met daddy. I guess i shouldn't yeah. I i do not forgive you and if i feel that there's enough. I'm just going to insert daddy's where they don't exist as a cautionary measure. What i had to to save christmas. I understand that it's the rest of my life. So you cindy lou who have the. Most people are familiar with the concept of alpha males. Right the idea that some men are inherent. There's a small cadre of mindanao inherently dominant. In that they're the they're the most attractive to women and all that stuff now so that was there were in this. This tweet that lewis simpson put out. There is like an image that signal book. There is an image of like the list of all the different kinds of males And then there was an image of a pure amid chart labeling what it called soc the socio sexual hierarchy now pyramid has alpha at the top and omega at the bottom and it goes through all the different kinds of males and then outside the pyramid next alpha is the sigma mail with the explaining texts the sigma and alpha are equal the sigma sits outside the hierarchy by his own choice. This is the money and of course on the other side of this pyramid is accrued clip art of a wolf because is he really appear. There is not an american wolf sitting right next to you. Got to be a wolf. It's a shame what's been done to the wolf. We'll be talking about that today too. So the last yeah. The last image in the lease tweet is the best A screen grab of a youtube video titled how to become sigma mail. The rarest male type like sounds like a great act of public service by liberty. Yeah lillies willy's wonderful and this was wonderful tweet That they put together Now that the video that that screengrabs from was host on the show channel it has a hundred and thirty seven thousand views to date in the portion of the paused video. We see. there's an image of keanu reeves as john wick next to the text rarest male tight which is not strictly untrue interest. That's an unfair appropriation of keanu reeves. Is wholesome image king who it is and i think part of why keanu reeves is so magnetic is that he has never spent a single section of his life wondering what hierarchy of male he counts s. He's simply exists. I used to sell kiana array of sudoku puzzles tear. It's my favorite fact. I've i had another friend who works. Who worked at the barnes and noble in santa monica who also sold books to kiana ribs. Reader he's a lovely man. I also interviewed once the guy who does. He's a guy who does like gun training for a hollywood films. Like training movie like action movie stars and how to use guns on screen and stuff and he's worked with kanye a lot And everybody loves galleries. Everybody who works carries loves them. I've never heard a bad thing about kyoto. I hate that kid. Evil the rarest melts bail type. And i have a feeling that has that has nothing to do with. Haven't seen the john with movies. Are they talking about john. Lewis john wick. Of course okay. Yeah they're talking about john wick as the sigma male who stands outside the male hierarchy. So what the fuck is going on with. The sigma male nonsense. We're going to talk about that. The unreadable book that we're going to read on thursday is about the sigma mail. It's the book that lily featured in their tweet. Oh yes but today. I think we should lay some groundwork in the tweet. That lily posted. They asked what the fuck is going on with men Now lillies to video yet. Great question and lilies done a youtube video on this which a lincoln the show notes titled signals into the manno sphere. It's quite good Today though i wanna go back further And i wanna talk about the groundwork that created what serious reach. Researchers really do call. The man owes fear. This is a term that like people have published peer reviewed studies about this thing In the man fear is in short. The chunk of the internet dominated by an increasingly toxic galaxy of male supremacists So we're gonna talk about where all of this comes from and how this like testosterone ladle jumble with idiocy has turned into something that inspired terrorist attacks. That have killed dozens. We're going to start. Yeah it's always it always is. They're not gonna take a terrorist attack the kill dozens not out there. I know i know. But i let it. I just i want listeners. Bring it up the first time that we knew several beautiful. This look at this. Look at this. If you wanted to show us your new toys you just show it to. I just enjoy holding it. It's made by curtis howland of freehill blades. You should check him out on on the graham. He's not play. I just wanted to know your phone. That trap loftus free to bring it up. I i i know. Jamie a little spoiler for where we're going. i was peacocking all episodes. Yeah i was peacocking. And i started the episode by nagging you about dogfighting. That's true first of all. I'm just trapped down. I didn't even notice. He's pulled a knife on me yet. Again there okay. Well there's like little inscriptions on it. It's cool rob. I'm going to start taxing you. Kathy cartoons. I feel like they would improve your day to day. jamie loftus. Are you ready to take a journey into the manno sphere. Yes segma- take me. We'll we're going to start as we nearly always start when we're talking about horrible things that lead to mass death with capitalism because before the man is fear before the internet we had the men's liberation movement now The based being liberated from well the this was actually a pretty reasonable social movement started in the nineteen sixties with the vietnam war and the growing counterculture in it existed within that space is a critique of traditional male gender roles in the capitalist united states. The first generation raised by world war. Two veterans had grown up in a world where men were expected to be breadwinners and women were expected to be domestic servants and the men of the men's liberation movement saw this toxic right The idea that you know like obviously men had a lot more in still do. Have a lot more privileged. But it's still bad for into just be expected you're only value is to produce money right Absolutely that's that's toxic thing and that's kind of what the men's liberation movement was reacting to and in fact it was tied with second wave feminism and both of them were like pretty pretty tightly interwoven and in in and not then robert. This is literally where kathy comes in. This were kathy starts. It kinda starts in nineteen seventy six. She's firmly in this place. She's winning her own bread and It's a problem. Yeah and so. In the in the sixties you get kind of the the birth of the men's liberation movement And researchers becky causton and michael kimmel explained quote. This is and this is talking about kind of how these guys thought. If men were imprisoned in the home than men were exiled from the home turned into. Solis robotic workers in harness to a masculine mystique. So that they're only capacity for nurturing through their wallets so yeah this is pretty reasonable. You know and that's like a lose lose to the classic loosely as where a woman is not allowed to validate themselves work if they choose and then then the man has the additional pressure it is loses. And it's also like you know women aren't validated as as being capable having a professional life but also men are aren't aren't validated as being capable of nurturing. You know that's that's that's a toxic thing. As well perhaps actively encouraged to not do it for the lead urge to drink high balls and talk about the war in dark voices until they pass out drunk on the couch. that's Yeah that's base-level daddy. Culture daddy cope baby so again. Men's liberation movement started out pretty reasonable place. A justified reaction to the in human realities of what a lotta people would call capitalism's golden age and then in nineteen seventy starting around nineteen seventy-three that golden age came to an end. Inflation soared employment plummeted gas prices skyrocketed upwards and political corruption. Grew more in your face than it had ever been before president. Jimmy carter coming to power hot off. The heels of the guy who pardoned nixon described the national mood as a sort of general malays Now during this period new movement the men's rights movement branched off from men's liberation and this was not as positive thing emmett a quote from a study titled from pick up artists to in sells a data driven. Sketch of the man spear. I was serious story. this guy. it's a. It's a really good study quoting. This new branch saw the problem Experienced as stemming more from feminism and women empowerment than oppressive gender roles. So called men's rights activists would focus on men's issues such as health problems military conscription divorce and custody laws in this new ideology. Women's liberation would be inflicting on men. The worst of both worlds in the movement sympathetic tone turned to anger so starts out as hey this whole system's fucked up it's unfair to men and women and we support women in their quest for liberation and we also have to liberate ourselves and then capitalism stops working in the same way. And there's less money and there's less opportunity and suddenly a lot of these guys are like. Oh fuck the problem is that women are getting rights right. Okay so this This is like the mid seventies energy seventy win this released. This process starts. But obviously it's so we're just going to pivot to Blade on women for the failures of capitalism hail. Yeah i like that. Oh jamie let me tell you. When i realized i could just blame women for the failures. Capitalism suddenly capitalism way easier. You don't need to blame you know it's it's something that you feel like you. It's just a direct person to yell at their capitalism isn't a person and people hate that and it's it's it's incredibly powerful and incredibly difficult to fight whereas a bunch of women who don't have the same employment opportunities as men way easier to fight than capitalism. Let me tell literally men are choosing to fight. Kathy i'm site. People were like instead of fighting capitalism. Let's oppress kathy. Specific impression oppressed kathy. That's right so many of the figures at the forefront of the men's rights movements. Were once people who had been associated with second wave feminism warren farrell. For example him ins group within the national organization for women he then in nineteen ninety-three wrote the myth of male power. This was a foundational text from his rights activists and it claimed that men not women were systematically disadvantaged in modern society. Feroz work is generally seen as like simplistic and insensitive and inaccurate and ocean and also the foundational texts of what we now know as the men's rights movement so the that need to be more oppressed. Yeah yeah yeah and it definitely like feral starts on the side of women's liberation and then makes a real real jagged shift Which is cool. It's cool how that works. Love that so it's not coincidental. Obviously that economic collapse in contraction Led to an awful lot of men going from a fairly healthy attitude like men should be liberated in so should women in instead like now. There's less money fuck women. Their way. don't have money In this basic true trend would hold true for forever really Obviously i do when i we're not talking about a jewelry. Admit when we talk about the men's rights movement we talk about any of this stuff. We're talking about A very vocal subculture And i don't wanna like a race. The men who continued to be like. Hey there's problems that men face society and they're tied to the problems that women face we have to like. I'm not trying to the whole center. Capitalism i will say that kathy's boyfriend irving does sound like he would believe in this sort of bullshit though. Oh fucking irving let me tell you. I've never read the. I know i hope listen. Wait till i started texting you. Kathy comics nonstop. You'll hate irving in two minutes. Oh jamie i am so excited to be texted. Kathy comics non-serb that will be. That will be much better than your panicked text about where your dog is in the night. Because he's gone off to fight again just it would just be nice to get a text of where he's fighting that's all i'm saying. Well he i haven't seen amid any of the dogfights ido to tent. Now he's jay. He's jv so historian. Barbara ehrenreich actually puts the first break with traditional fifties ideas of manhood much earlier than this period in the mid nineteen fifties Rather than being tied to any social movement or counterculture And she likes so. There's obviously there's this Men's liberation which turns into the men's rights movement but the first big kind of social break from the traditional expectations of manhood. That has kind of evolved during the early nineteen. Hundreds started in the early nineteen fifties in its credited with two hue hefner Oh yeah thanks okay. we're talk. we're talking hugh than this is. This is what barbara ehrenreich argues. So hugh had gotten married at age. Twenty two which was honestly kind of old to get married Sharon he's too young to get married would be my opinion You know but he was in the in the same situation of millions of other men in his generation and he regretted getting married. You felt like you've gotten gotten hitch too early and he hadn't had enough sexual experience and that's perfectly valid right to get pressured into marrying too early Where he goes with a is less valid in nineteen fifty three creates playboy magazine which was aimed at men like him who sought a life more liberating than the expected. Job to wife. Two kids degrade pipeline Now again obviously you had a few points here. nineteen fifties coacher was toxic in every single way But he didn't just like say like hey men should have know consider other options for their lifestyles. He took the tack that is becoming increasingly familiar of blaming women. The unreasonable constraints society placed on the first issue of playboy included an article. Warning men of gold digging women. Barbara ehrenreich writes it was a no holds barred attack on the whole concept of alimony and secondary on money hungry women in general entitled miss gold digger of nineteen fifty three the beginning playboy loved women. Large-breasted long-legged young women anyway and hated wives. So yeah i've i've read that article before Yeah i Hugh hefner is such a frustrating figure where it's like like many of the menu. They start from a valid point of frustration. Which is the expectation. Society is putting on them is unfair but then they're like but here. Here's my solution Naked underage girls that you have to pay for And a bunch of stories about how are under served by society between the and so it just becomes such a dissonant message immediately and spoiler alert. It stays that way and it's not a a wildly different process that you can. You can honestly see with a lot of antisemitism where people start from like. Oh hey finances fucked up. Oh hey capitalism's actually like really bad in an unfair in an unequal. And it's like okay. Okay okay and it's because of the jews. Okay now you see keep you zip targeted You district complete misfire right away. Yeah the first issue of playboy is a fucking weird ass document. That just shows you so much because it's like even in the mission statement the parts of the playboy mission statement that you're like i see where they're going with us and then by the end They've already deviated into hell. And then i have to call people seventy years later to ask what everyone's teddy sizes it's not fair. It's not like i got answers. And that's what that's my eight dollars an hour. Jimmy loftus flame famed playboys So hefner provided young men of the postwar era with kind of the first popular alternative view of masculinity when that was independent of a wife or a family focused unfortunately around the acquisition of objects So just like your independent of. You're a complete person without having a family and being a breadwinner which is a good way to view things. It's like you're an independent you. If you if you don't have a family and a wife you can have like nice furniture in nice liquor in stereo systems and stuff One of hefner's big major innovation not an innovations a weird way to say one of the major things introduced to society was the concept of the bachelor pad. Which is you know like nice house. That's just your places. Do bring women to in filled with things that you have acquired for money in his book. It came from something awful which is wonderful. David baron notes quote this heff. Narian vision of manhood was still tied to Achievement like the breadwinner vision of manhood. It encouraged conformity in merely changed the system of rewards. So you have the men's liberation movement which is very anti or at least critical of capitalism. You have hefner's vision of kind of new masculinity which is fun fundamentally dovetailing into capitalism. Yeah casually anti-women. Yeah it's sierra. Whatever you're expressing your expressing your masculinity through active participation and capitalism. So it's like well. We're lost. And i feel like there's similar you know it's frustrating because again it's like you could easily draw a similar line To to women as well of like how. There's such a pressure to participate in capitalism. Look a certain way. Certain thing. Do all this stuff. That is part of my. I don't know like that. Yeah of my myriad issues was second way feminism. A lot of it is just like let us participate in capitalism undisturbed. And it's like well we really fighting here. What's going on. And i think you could. Also you can see some kind of broadly similar in their structure things happening within kind of trans exclusionary radical feminism to. Yeah which. I have not done enough research on To get into more here. But i i definitely some similarities on what i knew. No so by the late nineteen seventies. You have this distinct. Men's rights ideology starting to form and has settled into a well-developed pattern of blaming women for the constraints that men face under american capitalism. A large chunk of the growing movement had been inspired by the objectification of not just women but life itself. Seeing the only reasonable path for them is a series of conquests. Both financial in sexual. This would all feed into the culture of reagan era greed and corruption in the nineteen eighties now alongside this period. A lot of other things were happening of course but one of them was an explosion in cartoons movies and popular fiction aimed at children and set in fantastic worlds. The media of the nineteen eighties and nineties in particular is still dominant today. And some of the most influential pieces of media that were created in the decade or so before two thousand and one We're like aimed at children and also aimed at like selling kids things. and it's it's your former. Is your blah blah. Yeah yeah bay properties and properties. Why the kind of the saudi culture that we're mired in today is so big as that like the fifteen years or so of media that that that we're talking about right now is what came right before. September eleventh and everything has just gotten worse since september eleventh pretty consistently. So it's this like is not only people's childhood but it. It's a lot of this stuff like hearkens back to a time. When for example the average person had some level of hope that things could get better for them economically. You know Yeah so the people who had their childhoods in the nineteen eighties and nineties in particular would grow up to face a tougher and less hopeful world than their parents. The boomers would gone. Were the dreams of even modest. Financial security careers became gigs. The future seemed to erode from underneath many people. Some of them chose to handle this by retreating back into the warm worlds of fantasy. That had voted their youth now. This phenomenon was first recognized named in japan in two distinct but related social. Phenomenon's the kiko maury or turning inward is a term used to describe young adults who reacted to the difficulty of adult life and financial stagnation by pulling away from society in isolating themselves in their homes or in their parents homes now the other phenomenon that japan like japanese sociology. Whatever kind of started to name around this period seventies aid really like the eighties eighties nineties. We're called a taco now david. Dale baron writes quote two factors that created the taco. The i was the same expansion of leisure marketing children that had occurred in the united states in the early eighties. Japanese homes filled with vcr's and tv's previous generations had faced the austerity and deprivation of war but postwar consumers found themselves with disposable income for an ever expanding market recreation and entertainment products as in the united states fantasy worlds designed to enthrall children and convince them to acquire a set of plastic toys and tapes flooded the market in japan. It began with a giant robot. Craze many children learn to gratify their existence through self-centered consumption of commercialized media as they grew older. Their world view inhabits grew with them. The second factor was unique to japan though. Eventually similar dynamics would spread to the united states. Japanese children of the eighties were called the bean sprout generation because they grew quickly and tall in postwar prosperity. Like br bean sprouts but were strangely. Substance lewis as the american model of the postwar. Corporate state was imported to japan. Japanese kids fell into the machine. The counterculture had protested in nineteen sixty four. They were flattened out into machine. Parts reduced to facts and figures ranked by computerized tests and then assigned a place in the hierarchy. According to their usefulness represented by the degrees they received this way of operating was not all that different from the preceding fascist system in which individuals subsumed themselves into the greater collective hierarchy of the state it also dovetailed with the japanese belief that hard work difficult experiences and sometimes even suffering often administered by an authority figure. Were good for the soul and so parents as i was pushed students to succeed in ways that were considered extreme to americans in the eighties. Though eventually as competition increased such practices would be imported to the united states. Hey robbery do you know what else is good for the soul. Someone else's getting imported into the united states opie products and services. That support this podcast. I see also good. Are they also good for this No we do not sell anything. That's good for the soul. I believe the soul is a cancer upon the human race in must be eliminated. Death to the soul is the behind the bastards motto and the motto of all of our sponsors. A i thought i was Fuck around and find trout. But okay i think we. I think we both agreed that our our corporate motto was death to the human soul. I like it. it's catchy. There is a lot of people are going to get on board Produce rob evans here in after a really rough couple of years. I'm sure a lot of you are looking to save money and one of the best ways you can do. That is by switching your wireless service to mint mobile. They're the first company. The sell premium wireless service online only mint mobile that you maximize your savings with plans. Starting just fifteen bucks a month. 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Probably not getting any easier and we could all use a little bit of help. Both meeting our goals with difficulty in relationships. Trouble sleeping trouble with trauma. I think we all have a lot of trauma these days with. Better help you. Just fill out a questionnaire and in forty eight hours. They'll have you with your own licensed therapist. It's not a crisis line. it's not self help. It secure online professional. Counseling better is committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches. So it's easy and free to change counselors if you need and of course not only is it more affordable than traditional off. Line counseling but financial aid is available visit better h e l p dot com slash behind enjoying the over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced. Better health professional. That's better h. E l p dot com slash behind phil. We're back for back. We're it's so weird the The otaga the phrase. Oh talkie has only become familiar to me in the last several months because it comes up a lot with allah lita stuff. Yeah and i think it's it's it's it's an important subject to study a lot of people. Say you can't generalize it too much to the us. But i think that a lot of what's happening here is is especially what's happened within like the outright four chan folks is very similar and i don't think you have to think japan which is kind of a few years ahead of the trend And it's all you know all of this everything we're talking about today. All this toxicity is a reaction to capitalism And it's a reaction to capitalism that gives people something to either due to numb the pain of capitalism or something to blame rather than acknowledged the flaws of capitalism which is one of the most brilliant aspects of capitalism as a sentence. I read a fucking essay a couple years ago. Where a day i think. It was a data researcher mathematician. Somebody who knew more math than me was was making the argument that global capital is functionally artificial intelligence because it it acts in defends itself in ways that imply some sort of some sort of gestalt intelligence at act acting within the system of capital and watching the way in which criticisms of capitalism and its flaws are deflected because of how people are able to find other groups to blame other things to rage at It's there's a lot of. I think back to that. S a lot when i watch. I don't know all of this shit Anyway that's neither here nor there. We'll talk about galaxy brains. I wanna know more. Yeah i'll try to find the sea again. We'll talk about one of these days jamie so a lot of what happened to the taco obviously sounds familiar. What we've seen fortune and read it. Due to large chunks of a whole generation one ranger difference would be that to the best of my knowledge. Most analyses of otahuhu coacher tend to focus on 'isolation and not for example the violent rage that these people exercise upon the world as a result of their isolation I'm certainly not saying that. Being no talk it was the same. As being like into four chan or a internet nazi or whatever but similar social pressures led to the creation of all of these these these classifications people or whatever. You wanna call it. Interested this is all like relatively new info to me. Yeah yeah it stuff. I've been like thinking about in a disorganized fashion for years In the book it came from something awful kind of helped me put some of this into a little bit more order but like my my research on h. in and stuff which is what got me. Famous in the first place is was was kind of preceding from this. It's it's definitely. I grew up on the internet. I'll talk about that more later. It it's it's been. It's been weird to watch. This happen so obviously shown. Us was a few years behind japan in this phenomenon but it can same factors where it work in this part of the world the first warning signs that something was terribly wrong Actually start a terribly wrong. Was going to lead to like really violent anti-women a terrorist movement right. The first kind of warning signs that the in movement was coming actually started in canada We're gonna talk about mark levin mark levin mark levin. Have you heard of the head of aeko. You should not have you heard of the ecole polytechnique attack. Yes i have heard of that. Yeah that he's the guy who did it. So mark levin was born in nineteen sixty four to an algerian father and a canadian mother. His dad was abusive to his mother in towards women in general and he bounced out of the picture when mark was young Mark actually changed his name to mark levin out of hatred for his father as a child. Mark was intelligent but withdrawn. He had difficulties making friends or even connecting with family members. His mom was a single parent and did not have a lot of time for the family. She was working all at the time. And this is also something that that mark grew up. Very angry about He had a younger sister who mocked him relentlessly for his acne and he repeatedly fantasized about her violent death march hobbies. Yup marks hobbies is a boy included shooting pigeons with an air rifle and reading about eight hitler who he grew to admire. Very we need to talk about. Kevin always always come back to hitler. It's the same thing. This has never emphasize. It's not emphasized. When people talk about cole polytechnic. It's not emphasized with columbine kids that they were like super fucking into hitler. You know it. it's a it's a pretty big mistake or like big detail to repeatedly gloss over. I agree yeah i just all of the all of the shit i had to here in elementary school after columbine about how like it was the result of bullying like no they were fucking nuts but okay they they continued like pretty consistently well into the two thousand. Ten's will that whole the empathized with with the school shooter be. Yeah yeah no. Actually what needs to be done as young men need to be called on violent and antisocial and particularly anti-women behavior because there's a lot of conversations that could be had about gun control. But you know what if you stopped if you if you took guns away from men with a history of domestic violence or anti-women violence you would take guns away from about half of mass shooters 'cause 'cause like half of them have histories of violence towards women including the guy who shot up the the health clinic Recently yes had had an arrest for domestic violence keeps happening. Seems like it's the number one predictor of whether or not somebody will do violence in public is if they hit women. People should do something about that. Some of them. Just start podcast. Some of them. Just start podcast and it's great. Ted cruz is proposing that We take guns away from people who have been investigated for domestic terrorism which is like number one. How do you define an investigation. That's not like you're talking about taking away someone's constitutional right because They've been investigated. Not convicted of something. And it's a great way for ted cruz to suggest something that doesn't involve taking guns away from domestic abuser. Interesting way to deflect from the people who vote for him yeah so Sorry we're getting off topic so we're talking about mark levin In nineteen eighty one. When mark was seventeen he attempted to join the canadian armed forces. Mark would later write that. They determined he was antisocial. Refused to accept him. The canadian military would later say that he was interviewed assessed and found to be unsuitable in nineteen eighty two. His family moved and leppin started a two year pre university course in engineering. He got a job as a custodian at the hospital where his mom worked. He was quiet and withdrawn at one point falling madly in love with a coworker but never working up the courage to talk to her. He got his own apartment and applied for admission at the ecole polytechnic which had a prestigious engineering programs like an engineering school. He was accepted provided he complete two courses and he didn't take those courses. He was rejected twice in all from the school. Marks acquaintances noted that through the nineteen eighties. He began to express a repeated and heated dislike for feminists raged. That women were allowed be cops in particular and felt that they should be forced to stay at home caring for their families his stated that he desperately wanted a girlfriend but seem to be unable to actually talk to women when he did interact with women he tended to boss them around in an attempt to show them how smart he was see. That's a great way for them to not point out your acne. Yep got some notes mark. yeah Mark was fired from the hospital. Yeah he was fired from the hospital where he worked for being angry and unreliable. He initially planned to shoot up his former workplace in revenge but after he was turned down by a coal polytechnic. Second time in nineteen eighty nine. He decided to focus his rage on the college. In particularly it's feminist. Because even though they had given him clear instructions about what he needed to do to get accepted and he'd failed to do those things. He blamed the fact that he hadn't gotten into school on feminists because women were taking up. All the engineering slots rightly have gone to him. If weren't those women yeah. Yeah i know this argument. Not a thing that's ever happened again. On december sixth nineteen eighty nine. He walked into the montreal engineering school's campus with a semiautomatic rifle into hunting knife from the guardian quote. Natalie provost was twenty three when leptin shot her four bullets from his legally obtained rifle entered her body and changed her life forever. Leppin had entered her classroom. Incent the fifty men and nine women to opposite sides of the room. Then he ordered into leave. He told us that we were there. Because he was against feminists she told the guardian. I answered back. We are not feminists. We are just engineering students. And if you wanna study at polytechnic you just have to apply. And you'll be welcomed. And then he shot. Six of the nine women in that room were killed. Jesus fucking christ. Yeah it's pretty bad jamie pretty bad. By the time leptons rampage was over. He had killed fourteen women and injured fourteen. Other people including four men. He then killed himself for many years. The shooting has been kind of just written off as a mass shooting. right in canada instituted some gun control legislation as a result of this. But it did not stop a the anti-women terrorists by the most recent one. Was alex minassian. Two or three years ago killed ten people in a van ramming where he was aiming at women But we're we'll keep talking about this subject. Oh good so yeah it was. It was kind of taken as like this. Is this was an ex inexplicably. Deranged man with a gun who is choosing to like Kill strangers and kill kill women But it was. It was seen as just kind of like a mass shooting. The reality as is made clear by leppin suicide note. Is that the cole. Polytechnic attack was the very first in cell terrorist attack. And i'm going to quote from his manifesto now. The feminists always enraged me. They wanted to keep the advantage of the advantages of women. Eg cheaper insurance extended maternity. Leave preceded by preventative. Leave et cetera. While season for themselves those of men thus it is an obvious truth that if the olympic games were removed the men women distinction there would be women only in the graceful events so the feminists are not fighting to remove that barrier. They are so opportunistic that they do not neglect profit from the knowledge accumulated by men through the ages. They always try to misrepresent them every time they can. Thus the other day i heard they were honoring the canadian men and women who fought at the frontline during the world wars. How can you explain that since women were not authorized to go to the front line. Will we hear of caesar's female legion at legions and female galley slaves. Who of course took up fifty percent of the ranks of history. Though they never existed a real koss belly. So hollywood. he's saying there. He's he's don't i mean i do but i but Yeah it's all very frustrating. First of all that's male figure skater erasure and needed. It is And i got i just. Yeah how quickly. It escalates to women participate strictly participating in a in an activity they were once you know more limited and barred from with this like grand scheme to displays. Men is too so. I mean whatever you hear you hear it all the time but it never sounds a to g in check and i think there's a few things that are worth noting there one of them. Is that the initial lines by him. We wrote where he was like. Women are trying to. They only want to the only way to change the things that don't benefit them about society they don't wanna give up all their advantages. And that's what like the the the men's rights activists of the seventies were arguing right That's one more in farrell. Who wrote the myth of male power was arguing. So he's he's not coming at this from out of nowhere right. These same social movements exist in candidate in mark influenced by them and he's in about by debates about feminism and in canada And and obviously in the united states because canada's you know basically are are are low brother Women in their damn maternity lead and there. Dan maternity leave. What do they get maternity leave. And not me which actually is a great question. Men should get maternity leave with the et. Yes valid thing but like it's the answer isn't kill women over it. Yeah yeah it's it's again this thing of yes. There's a very valid critique of american style capitalism in particular because other capitalist countries are not as irrational about this as we are where it's like yeah husbands or fathers should should be. Yes and like yes. Why why can't you just me a self. Yeah maybe maybe whenever a couple has a kid regardless of what their sex or gender is they should get six months off of work because as a society. We should note that. It's important to spend that time with your child and more valuable to do that. Then continue to create value under capitalism. And it would lead to healthier children and a healthier society and thus is worth it for us to all Pay a little bit in order to make that possible. Maybe i think you're take lee's loose. I think you're taking things too far. That's enactment that maybe a healthy culture would make that call leaving the zoom america not america. We will never do the healthy thing. So mark's note makes it clear that he started entertaining thoughts of serious violence against women about seven years before the shooting. So if you're looking at this guy's path to radicalization it's about a seven year journey which is slow. I mean it can happen. Fuck yeah thanks to the internet. There's a lot to say about how much the internet has sped this up. You look at some of the cuban on people who've been engaged in violence and it's like. They got an accused six weeks before they kidnapped their kids and drove across the country. Raider you know. But in the pre internet days obviously there were not massive online. Communities of mayo rights advocates are anti-feminist advocates and mark was mostly left alone to stew in his hatred He was also relatively unable to spread his hateful philosophy to an accepting community but still public reaction to a coal polytechnic. Made it clear that there existed significant support for his actions. Even then a psychiatrist at the hotel dieu. Hospital in quebec was quoted as saying that leppin was as innocent as his victims and himself a victim of an increasingly mercilus society Expand on that. My perhaps this man who shot twenty eight people is as much a victim as the twenty eight people. He shots but that is such a. I mean i'm not surprised at all but that was the attitude then because that was the attitude for a long time after that it's the attitude a lot of people have now. Yeah a right wing. Terrorist like are all the articles coming out about. How a bunch of the capital rioters had Or insurrections wherever you wanna call him. Had a head headache. Recent financial difficulties right even though if you actually look at. Most of their financial problems came from not paying taxes on the businesses that they ran because they've right-wing shitheads but very frustrating. No let's blame. I blame i blame anything else. Any anything but number one the individuals and also the ideologies that are heavily supported by large segments of our society who make huge amounts of money supporting that cheering on that it anyway so that all takes us in to the nineteen nineties right. this happens. Nineteen eighty nine very early days of of what would become the internet. We get into the nineteen nineties and increasing numbers of young men are increasingly online. And i was one of these young men. I spent most of the late. I mean i was a child in the night. He's but. I spent most of the late nineties in the early. Audits as i would. I i think i can honestly say one of the very first. Terminally online young men What the all of my socializing All of my free time. that was not spent. You know play in war hammer or whatever. Dnd was was spent various online communities like early forums and message boards. You're you're on the boards. I was up on tons. Aborts all about the boards run on the board online. I absolutely will not talk about most of them but one of the something which started in nineteen ninety nine. There were some that. I was on before that I can tell you that. In my experience i didn't i don't recall encountering a lot of open violent hatred of women and fantasies of violence against them. Obviously there was a ton of misogyny and most of which i did not recognize his massage at the time because that was the culture that i was raised in yet. I didn't run into people fantasizing about murdering women because they couldn't get a date right like that saying had not was not at least not common yet. What was common were stories of sexual frustration and feelings of hopelessness about the idea of finding a girlfriend. A common mean back then was there are no girls on the internet which was largely inspired by a couple of facts number one. A lot of men pretended to be women online. Obviously at the time we said that like a lot of creepy guys pretend to be women I have as just kind of based on some of the people that i've met Particularly some of the trans people. That i've met. I've become aware more recently that a lot of that was like people who would later realized they were trans. Kind of starting to experiment with with with with that identity Obviously at the time which is like a lot of guys are pretending to be ladies is kind of how you fourteen year old me and a bunch of other people on the internet interpreted it and the other aspect of the whole. There are no girls on the internet. Thing was that there weren't a lot of girls on the internet A late was a lot of it was like most of the communities i was in were made up of a lot of isolated young male nerds who played way too many video games And kind of had trouble imagining that many women would enjoy the same internet. they did And obviously they they may have been right. It was pretty objectify in misogynistic in a lot of also great. Great podcast by Brigitta there are no report brought guests by time. There are no girls on the internet. It it is weird. Because it's like i remember i didn't spend a lotta time on forums as a kid for the remember like what four walls just to know too busy you know like having friends and doing activities kind of No but but i didn't spend it. But i do remember like when when the option online was to try to find a forum for something you are interested. I remember like going to some and then being immediately like scared off by how people were talking there and then you either have to assume whatever the child online thing in assume a false identity and do the same thing and like match the energy or you. Just you're like well. I guess i can't get this. Like series of unfortunate events. Forum is scary. And i have to leave. Yeah i guess. I will give a little detail about one of the two. Big one of them was something awful which was in a lot of ways tasha And also objectively healthier and more responsibly. Run than any major social media service today. True fair like no they banned. Nazis ended saying. Yeah that's put in their defense. They banned banned. Nazis and it costs money to join right. There was a consequence. Yeah not that. They were comprehensive her perfect at doing that but it was a thing they did. Better than twitter did Yes that is true. So the other and i think this is why because i think a lot about why i didn't kind of wind up in getting pulled into more like hard right stuff because i was definitely had there was a point which could have been you know i grew up. Very conservative is still love guns and knives And you can stop playing them on. I will not something the knife. I'm surrounded by firearms as often as i can be I enjoy a lot of like kind of stereotypically male things and aesthetics and i also was a huge isolated nerd growing up so like yeah in. Could've i think there are a number of reasons it. Didn't you know some of them come to my family. There's a lot of strong women in my family and that was always like a thing I grew up around but obviously that could have gone the other way too. 'cause i had a lot of angel momma over shit Now the other thing. I you know i had some good friends who were not a toxic creeps but i think a big part of it is that the other set of online communities that i i i spent time in one of them was like a master of orion three which went being a terrible video game but a forum dedicated to that game and win. The game turned out to suck a bunch of friends. I met there brought me over to their other weird online community. Which was like. I think you would call them like like furry dragon fetishes type people now. the notion of like a a discussion and role playing forum him. Any there were a lot of women on it And women who would very gently call me on ship And i i i. As i've gotten older. Yeah maybe if. I'd never run into that. I would've wound up in a lot more toxic communities as opposed to these Pretty mature people in their thirties. Who just had a weird thing for dragons but were fairly with european lucky. That's really. I wish that more fourteen year old boys instead of You know just feeding each other. Garbage day Just had a nice conversation with a with a thoughtful. Furry yeah i've been. I've also been you know steered towards a more nuanced and thoughtful opinion online by by a furry in their thirty s. i. I like genuinely strongly agree. That was a joke. Yeah i i. I oh i oh i i need. Cut a check to the community. 'cause i've learned So as the years went on a chunk of my generation was raised informs like something awful and later four chan Which which sprang out of something awful fully formed like theme from zeus 's head And you know these communities. The men in these communities often rarely talked to women Or any owner fina. Yeah four chan is is the athena the athena of racism but yeah we need new. Wait i'll i'll think of a different one for that. Continue so A lot of yeah. These communities all had a lot of very online young men who were very easy prey for a new gripped that burst onto the scene in two thousand and five pickup artistry Yeah I love that we're heading into the years of tucker max. Yeah the game and jay bullshit. Yeah and i. i don't know. I think also may be part of the resign. Didn't get as much into it. Is that by kind of two thousand and four or five. The split between four chain and something awful made for something awful of the healthier. You know Because a lot of people went to the chance you know the ugliness on something awful not trying to whitewash that either but it was definitely a healthier place to be a young man. Fucking fortune Yeah again lower. So the inciting incident for the of infection of pickup artistry on these communities of of lonely and increasingly bitter young men was neil. Strauss's two thousand five bestseller the game which is basically the story of journalist who got drawn into the world of pickup artists who are men who treat dating kind of like an engineering problem right. If you read a lot of pickup artistry stuff they treat it like picking up women is like. It's an issue of numbers and repetition learning repeatable. Tactics like do math. So she won't even notice she won't even notice Yeah like tactics like nagging. Which is insulting a woman in a way that isn't an insult but undermines your confidence and makes her want to impress you In the game also introduced the world to peacocking which would thereafter ruin the fedora for. Everyone told the knife on four hundred times and episode to neal's legacy felt strongly. Soom what. I like the fedora hold on. I'm a cowboy brand the adora. Oh that's fun. well you really are in texas. i love. I love cowboy hats. They're great hats. Look nobody's anyway. I found an exceptional two dozen nineteen article in the guardian on pickup artists. by seyran. Gail in it she writes i went to university. Two years after the game was published and watched its influence spread like a virus through the men in my ear. I don't think. I went on a night out in two thousand seven without some drunk rugby player. Trying to negbi. Yeah now in. That article which i really recommend. Searing gail quotes. Dr rachel o.'neil from warwick university who writes about masculinity seduction from an academic standpoint. She says of pickup artistry. The basic premise of all seduction teaching and practice is that interactions between men and women are subject to certain underlying principles. That once understood can be readily manipulated. This is an impoverished view of sex and relationships in which intimacy is less something to be experienced for its own sake and more something to be achieved for other ends impoverished view of sex and relationships. that that that that hits yeah Very much so now. I think this quote explains pretty well. Why pete pickup artist tactics took off like a rocket among strictly extremely online communities. Made up mostly of gamers right. All of the guy is in these in these very insular. Online communities played way too many video games driving with by two thousand five or so we've been world of warcraft. Was the big one fully. As i was going to say is like the the like game of fighing game. Affi- exactly nece is a of fucking galaxy brain level rift like and just implying that it whatever they i mean. That's any implying that the tools are within your reach. You just need to do. Abc and you can replicate Raw human joy. It's you know if you're maybe it's different for kids now just the way. I grew up socializing. Mostly in video games. Informs not spending a tremendous amount of time Having friendships with women The act of like being appealing to women Of of you know going out and trying to find someone can seem like an incomprehensible task. You know If you're out hanging out on the chance or something awful and you're spending all of your free time grieving people on wow You're you're also not going to be spending time in the kind of spaces where you can gradually gain more and more experience right kind of being appealing to in flirting with other human beings as a learning process. Right it's a. It's a thing that you learn how to do. And if you're spending all of your time on forums in participating in raids and stuff maybe you don't get as much experience doing that I have a question Because okay so. I feel like i had experiences online in more. Probably female heavier forums where there would sometimes be like. I would want to have a certain kind of social interaction but but the forum is so already bogged down and it sounds kind of like the same thing of like the the forum or the media. You're consuming is already so bogged down in telling you that that is going to be really hard for you to do that. You're like creating an additional obstacle to having a basic social interaction because you're surrounded by people who have tried it and say that it's impossible and so i created additional obstacles where social obstacles already existed. Because i'm like well. Everyone in this forum seems to reinforce that this is something that is not easy to do so may as well not even attempt to do it does. Yeah yeah yeah. It's a hard thing to do anyway. Kind of learning how to have romantic relationships. You know like that's a that's a difficult process And it's made harder by a lot of the self reinforcing habits that are pushed in these communities a lot of the attitudes and ideas right like these just being told like well. It's never going to happen anyway. Like yeah i know yeah. That's that's kind of where this is all leading a and you know i. Yes so the reason. That pickup artistry really appeals to these people. Is that for this community of like very online frustrated. Gamers these pickup artists are basically saying. Hey there's a set of cheat codes for fucking right like that's that's that's the gist abyss like there. Are these replicable things. You can do like pushing pushing. Aba and it will make women sleep with you so obviously a lot of young nerdy men got all on board shit. You know Now pickup artistry has existed in some form as an industry for more than half a century but the advent of the internet and the introduction of pickup artistry to online communities changed things in dark and terrible ways from seyran gaels article quote with the advent of the internet elements of the pickup artists communities ideology hardened into something darker it paved the way for other masculine is self help formations to emerge such as jordan. Peterson's twelve rules for life says. He'll peterson canadian. Academic salinas publish bestselling self help tome in two thousand eighteen and is a critic of feminism. It also counteracts masculine. His factions such as the in cell movement and men's rights activists this globalized network of pickup artists. Men's rights activist in cells. All emerged out of the same primordial sludge. And that's kind of like that's what we're talking about this sort of lake this again. Gestalt mass of impulses in frustration and Media and An anger turned inward that spews a few different communities. But right now you've got pick up artists who had existed for quite a while Coming into this community of increasingly frustrated and basically all male nerds and this this winds up kind of laying the groundwork for gamergater addition to a number of other players. That would come as a gamer gate was when i was in college. And what a bad time to be talking to young men at parties real bad can can consecutive that one. I think again about like why didn't turn out this way. I i was talking about like playing too much row as a thing. But i honestly think the the people that i met on. Wow where another reason why. I didn't get pulled into this. Because i was. I was a huge nerd. I was on a role playing servers. So we were like always in character so Attracted a lot more incredibly nerdy late really like not just like one play video games nerdy but one of escape into a fantasy world and so there were actually a lot of women on the servers. The services on it and the communities that i was with including like women in their thirties and forties who i formed friendships with and who again helped me. Not turn out that toxic totally. Yeah with the more. I think about it. The more i am really in debt to a lot of Very nice older women on the internet Who very patiently explained things about adult to me. that's beautiful. I i feel like yeah. It's it's a very. I don't know whatever it's such a crapshoot being online. Shoot right but you can turn out some some good shit. I don't know yeah it. It makes me want to revisit sites where it's like you find even just like one or two people who were like. Oh that's a normal person living healthily like and what a nice thing to see online. I don't know i used to be obsessed with this woman from portland. Took shitty pictures under digital camera. And i was like. Oh this is going to be me. Someday i'm going to have a sony power shot and your pictures of balloons and like jamie. I believe get a sony. Power shot one day. I really think. I could take a picture of a balloon with a sony power shot. I'm not quite there. But i'll get there. Someone listening has sony power shot and by god. I think we'll get it to you jamie and on that note. It's it's time for. It's time for an outbreak robert. Speaking of sony power shot mark capitalism into your wallet with these ads. Robert evans from behind the bastards here and speaking of bastards. There's a lot of them out there looking to get a hold of your identity and make money off of it about one. In five americans have been affected in some way identity theft and no matter how secure you are online. What you're doing may not be as private or safe as you think it is. 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We're back and reminiscing about the days. When cameras were things that existed independent of phones. Imagine the dark ages still so all of this stuff. We've been talking about today like all of these different kinds of social movements which are sort of tap dancing around each other in the in the primordial sludge of the internet these it all started to metastasized into something truly dark by around two thousand ten. The process was early yet. The men's rights movement was still fairly small cells. Weren't really a thing. But in early network of misogynists thought leaders were already laying the ground for what would become gamer gate and many the horrors. That would come later. One of these thought leaders was a fella named theodore beale alias. Vox dei born in nineteen sixty eight. Bill is the son of former world. Net daily writer and convicted tax evader evader robert. The son wound up even further right than the father and he was quickly deemed too extreme for world net news daily or world net daily which is basically a half step shy of outright. Fascism at this point violence reached prominence as prominence as a science fiction author and also as a nazi over the years. he has praised toya shooter. Andres breivik denied the moon landing and the holocaust and written for the anti-women website return of kings which was vehicle for the prominent pickup artists and now christian fascist ruby. What a hat trick exciting right and we're seeing now. We're seeing like the pickup artist. Kind of like vox. Dei is a big outright field. figure right. We're seeing the pickup artists in the all. Right like they all kind of come together in like bradley. 'cause reuss started out as a very traditional pickup artist writing books about fucking women in foreign countries and also admitting in those books to raping women on a number of occasions Sounds like tucker max. He sounds like tiger max Except for i don't know what tucker tucker. Max i think just has a family now Rush has now like a hardcore christian fascists who believes that people should be executed for extramarital sex. So it's he's ed quite a journey. Only shed also literally lives in his mom's basement. Well that's not reinforcing. A negative stereotype about menu. Living their mother's basement with living in your mom's basement but it's funny that he does two things can be true. Tucker max is a ghost writer now. He no longer writes under his own name. He just goes throat. He goes wrote. Tiffany haddish as memoir which is a detail. I find very strange but it is true. What now the weirdest fucking thing. That is the weirdest fucking thing anyways. I'm going to go back to forgetting that. He exists that he ever existed. Yes i names are scary min. Also tucker's practiced we need. Max is either that you know. Yeah i i guess i would need to be sold on. A max with tankers mixes come on. But they're all technically maxine there so Vox dei theodore. Beale got his start in punditry by attacking prominent atheists like richard dawkins And he seems to be one of many fascists who were really radicalized by nine eleven He spent much of the early. He was against the war in iraq and afghanistan because he was like against you know for the same reason a lot of folks on the right words. Same reason trump was but as kind of those things turned more into wars against islam. He started really supporting the idea of a war of extermination against islam. So is issues with iraq and afghanistan is that we weren't going over there to kill muslims. You know no war for oil war to kill muslims. That's that's the door beal. You'll life this jamie. Theodore is also a member of mensa and brags regularly that his his over deceased threshold. Wow i'm honestly surprised. It took bends at this long to come into the mix. I'm sure came in earlier. This is the first time my research led me to bring our. I'm sure someone shouted that in my face at one point. I just didn't remember. It's my tiny woman's brain. It's your yeah Not gonna quote that line from anchorman again. Anyway Vox dei. As he is known professionally intersects with a man sphere in a number of ways but probably most significantly as a major architect of the alpha beta in of course sigma hierarchy. She is in fact. The inventor of the concept of the sigma mail as best as i can determine But before we get into that. I think we should talk a little bit. About where the idea of alpha males come from in the first place. Are we going to talk about wolf. We are super gonna talk about nice. Pallet cleanser never did anything wrong. They're incapable of doing anything wrong. Just waltz level way better than men. People want one of those those shirts with three wolves howling at the moon. I never had the confidence to wear one. That's three will see. And we made fun of likely mocked curry's in the early odds we mocked the people who were brave enough to wear a three wolf moon shirt tragedy when when they were like the furry as the bravest and best among us. It's it's like it's like it's like the romans killing jesus. We always kill those who wanna teach us a better way. It's true register. Tragic in nineteen forty seven. Rudolf schinkel an an an animal. Behavioral list published a paper titled expressions studies on wolves where he coined the term alpha to describe social relationships. He observed between captive wolves in switzerland. Sue basil schenker was working to establish what he termed the sociology of the wolf and he identified new primary wolves leading the captive pack. That he studied was a male lead wolf and the other was a head female bitch he wrote a bitch and a dog is top. Animals carry through their rank order and as single individuals of the society. They form a pair between them. There is no question of status and argument concerning rink. Even though small fictions of another type jealousy are not common by incessant control and repression of all types of competition within the same sex. Both of these alpha animals defend their social position. Now k. It's interesting that me this form. So much of the basis of like men's rights ideology when shankar's partake is saying first off that like well men and women are equal will society. There's a top man in a top women and there's no issues of status between them their dominant. There's two outfits it's this it's always that shit though. It's like the same thing with like. I q stuff where it's like the foundational document that people are declaring their surpremacy on states in the document. That like i was not fixed. And and you're wrong if you try to fix it but they're cod. That's so depressing. It's literally in the in the document. Got it okay. Yeah no the concept of the alpha wolf was born as the result of this paper And now schinkel was. I think a good scientists. There's obviously he winds up being wrong and a lot of ways but he's you know it's nineteen forty seven. He's doing he's doing the best he can And he did not make any comparisons to human social relationships in his paper However repeatedly draw conclusions about domestic dogs based on captives waltz for decades schenker's work was basically the only word most people could find on worse on wolf behavior. His findings were backed up in nineteen seventy when wildlife biologist default mech published the wolf the ecology and behavior of an endangered species. That we now know that all of this research was fundamentally flawed schinkel and were studying and drawing conclusions about wolves held in captivity. And as you might guess from you know prisons incarcerating. A bunch of animals situation wildly different from their natural environment. Do they to differently. Yeah yeah they do not have the same sang in emec himself is one of the primary voices challenging his old research because he and other his other colleagues started carrying out more research on the dynamics of wild wolf packs obviously learned that they had been wrong. I'm going to quote from a write up on the concept of the alpha wolf as a top dog ruling. A group of similar aged compatriots mec rights in the nineteen ninety. Nine paper is particularly misleading. Met notes that earlier papers. Such as mw fox's socio ecological implications of individual differences in wolf litters published in behavior and nineteen seventy-one examined the potential of individual cubs to become alpha's implying that the wolves would someday live in packs in which they would become alpha and others would be subordinate pack members. However mick explains his studies of wild wolves found that wolves live in families to parents along with their younger cubs will do not have an innate sense of rank. They are not born leaders or borne followers. The alpha's are simply what we would call an what we would call in any other. Social group parrots the offspring fo. The parents is naturally as they would in any other species. No one has. One role is leader of the pack. The parents may assert dominance over the offspring by virtue of being the parents. This is so it's always like okay. I the misunderstanding that they hate group is built off is strictly accomplished by not reading the original document and then the original document is proved to have been false anyways. But it's like it. It just doesn't matter it doesn't matter it doesn't matter because they're interesting wolf fact. Though i didn't know that it isn't equal fact and mechta. His credit has spent decades railing against his outdated where he's keeps trying to get his publisher to pull his nineteen seventy book from publication. But it's a very popular because of weirdos who were obsessed with the idea of the alpha male and his publisher refuses to stop selling it a fucking exhausting problem have a. He's just trying to be the scientists he can. You know changes wanted to strap a gopro to a wolf on you and you made it fucking weird. You made it about people fucking. Why did you do that. He was just trying to understand wolves he just wanted to go pro ana wolf's head and all of a sudden it has to do with wyatt teenage boys and getting fog. Yeah like jesus. I think we can all agree. That science was a mistake. I blame i blame. I don't blame capitalism. i don't blame. Men's rights activists. I blame science in the printing. Chris get gutenberg if berg hadn't started fucking around. Maybe wouldn't have this problem. Yeah i'm going. Go back in time and beat them to death with a giant letter. A exactly exactly you see at the end credits of the movie. Like a is lying in his blood and the old detective pulls it away and sees that. It's it's made a printing on the surface of the of the cobblestones. He's like my god. The printing press happens anyway and anyway really making progress screenplay here like yeah this. Thank you for involving me in the workshop process. Oh yeah always jimmy. So meccas tried to get his book polled but it keeps being sold to people like vox dei. Who again in the mid ought started using it to draw conclusions about human social dynamics in idea of the alpha male. Obviously the man knows. Fear did not invent the concept of the alpha male that term has been used for decades usually as a generic term for loud and socially dominant man with a man owes feared did was take that basic concept and codify it into something that started to resemble a religion it started with misinterpret on four chan and similar spots all lamenting the sex. That alpha's were supposedly having and part of the appeal of pickup. Artistry is that it was going to give these betas the tool to attract women and become alpha's themselves right like that's and again. The man is fear. Two thousand ten doesn't really exist but it's starting to be born in this period. You're starting to get these kind of amorphous. Groups of frustrated young men forming ideologies And vox day is a big part of that in two thousand ten. He writes a post on his popular blog. That went beyond the simple alpha beta dichotomy. His work here was partly a reaction to the fact that five years into the mainstream of pickup artistry. A lot of men were finding that it didn't work Rather than wonder if maybe it's because it was toxic bullshit now the virus must state. They decided that this was because the alpha beta thing is an immutable hierarchy literally carved into the bones of human males and so pick up. Mystery isn't a con because it teaches men how to you know it. It fundamentally shallow and toxic view of male female interactions that most women simply have no desire to be a part of. It's wrong because you can't if you're a beta you're doomed i. Yeah it couldn't be that the approach is insulting and people. Don't okay all right so we're gi jamie. We're we're really to reach and it's weird because this is like i dunno. It's we're like any like when i was in high school and it's like you can sort of start to notice when this shit starts picking up in like high school into college so many from vox stays article this is where the sigma mayo comes from his best as i can tell quote and this is him laying out the different types of man alpha the tall good looking guy who was the center of male and female attention the classic star of the football team. Who is dating the prettiest cheerleader. The successful business executive with beautiful stylish wife all the women are attracted to him. All the men want to be him or his friend at a social gathering like a party. He's usually the loud guy telling self flattering stories to whom several attractive women are. listening with. big interested is alpha's are only interested in women to the extent that they exist for the alba's gratification physical and psychological beta the good looking guys who weren't as uniformly attractive were dominated dominant as the alpha but are nevertheless confident attractive to women. Do well with them at the party. They are the loud guy friends. Who should up with the alcohol and who are flirting with tier one women in pairing up with the tier. Two women betas tend to a genuinely like women and view them at a somewhat optimistic manner. But they don't have total illusions about them either delta the normal guys they can't attract most the most attractive women usually aim for the second tier women with very limited success and stubbornly resist paying attention to all of the third tier women who are reasonably in their league. This is ironic because delta's would almost always be happier with their closest female equivalents when a delta does manage to land a second tier woman he is constantly afraid that she will lose interest in him and so he will not infrequently drive her into the very loss of interest fierce by his nonstop dancing attention upon her. This is the vast majority of men in a social setting these are. The men clustered together in groups egypt. The making the occasional foray towards various goggles of women before beating a hasty retreat when direct contact and engaged responses are not forthcoming delta's into put the female sex on pedestals and have overly optimistic expectations of them. If a man talks about his better half or as an inveterate white knight he's probably a delta. they like women but find them confusing and are a little afraid of them. Gamut hold this. I think is like organizing women like they're the del taco trick. Cravings menu is scary as fuck of course but we we talked about in the we work article how it should be legal. Hit people in the brick with in the face with a brick if they express a desire to be the world's first trillionaire president of the world. You say either of those things. That's brick right. That's okay anyone should be able to hit you right in the face with a brick. I anna start talking about the tears of women that exist. That's a bricken that has ads. And you won't do it again there. I'd say god. Yeah whenever whatever. Women are organized like a drive through menu. that's a red flag and also you have to wonder like where on this like hierarchy does the person who's sitting in the corner of a party making this shit up like what is is that sigma. What does that. Yeah he's hoping foxy digging for in. Yeah i mean you know jamie. I think a lot about how could improve society and i. I would like it if we would take the resources and a lot of the the the very skilled sort of individual investigators who exist within the fbi and turn them into whose whole goal is to find people saying she this both online and in real life. And you have this network of agents who are just always looking for this and when something like this comes up they just walk up and punch you right in the fucking face. Why that's that. That's what imagine if that's what the fbi did. They just sought out men say in the just one punch right in the jaw in everyone would know if a guy in a suit comes up and socks you in the job. That dude was saying some bullshit right we would be able to trust. We need to make a whole group of trustworthy of b. i. Agents this sounds need to find a bunch of chad's jamie a bunch of real chance. Here's a thing whenever. I see the cartoon of becky. No wait that becky. It looks exactly like me. And i get mad. I'm sorry jamie. I'm literally the ganger of that cartoon. I know your pain I yeah. I know it's it doesn't feel good to look like the cartoon i'll say that it doesn't i have to finish fox day okay. The gama's the outsiders the unusual ones the unattractive and all too often the bitter often intelligent reliably unsuccessful with women and not uncommonly all but invisible to them the gamma between placing on pedestals in hating the entire sex mostly depending on whether an attractive women happened to notice his existence or not that day. These are the guys who obsess over individual women for extended periods of time. Gama's supply the ranks of stalkers psycho. Jealous ex boyfriends and the authors of excruciatingly narcissistic doggerel in the unlikely event. They are at the party. They are either in the corner muttering darkly about the behavior of everyone else there sometimes to themselves. Gama's tend to have a worship hate relationship with women which is directly tied to their current situation. Yeah and then there's omega male is way to put that Okay and then of course he names the sigma males which are are men who are not part of the hierarchy. 'cause they consciously standout cited but they're equal to alpha's they're the lone wolf right. That's that's that that's the job. Johor yeah john wick didn't exist yet but yes. That's that's clearly. How box day. And i think you get the feeling box debuts himself as as a sigma mail of course yeah and for sigma males are inherently attractive. Like two women but they don't they don't seek women's approval Because god that thing. It's incredible you. Bears wrote here midday unless you stand outside it and Of course women are not going to see you. If you're standing away from the pyramid. So i think that makes sense. Wow how embarrassing for him. He wrote that down he wrote. He wrote that down on the whole ass. Internet it's there forever now. He wrote that down. Wow okay for thousands of tragically online young men. Here's a failure. At pickup artist techniques led to rage i to the system they believed to con them into believing the alpha beta hierarchy was not a strict caste system. Some of these red pill men formed an online community named p you a hate dot com pick up. Artists hate dot com as founded to mock attack pickup artists which isn't necessarily ignoble goal. But the men who made it were coming from the perspective of believing that only office with a very specific bone structure could possibly attract women by of this happens other places online. Where insoles gathered. They'll take pictures though. Photoshop pictures of themselves into like how what would what it would take to make them into an alpha and like you'll get eight one of the phrases you hear a lot. Is that like the only difference between you know. An alpha and ended delta is a couple of millimeters of bone and like that. It's so unfair right. That nature's played this cruel joke on them that they will never ever ever be able to be with a woman because they their bone structure isn't quite right and her bone structure is a gateway to so to infinity. Phonology to nazism. Yes and it's also like one of the things that's most frustrating about it. Is that like all of like it. It's not it's not actually that they don't think they could ever find women for some of them. It is but for most of them like when you hear what they're saying is that i don't have a chance to get with a woman who looks like the heavily airbrushed in photoshop models in. I have a right to that right. Which is like acting entitled to something that doesn't even exist in the first place. Yeah and it's like the theodore beale stuff is like well i don't want it to your three women. I want to cheer one woman and like even the tier three women don't like me and like they all get to fuck with if i do get a tier one woman. She's just gonna be waiting until she can fuck someone else because they can ever be like. We need a. It's in its jordan. Peterson intersects this shit. Right when he started talking about like we need to find a way to Have the government enforce monogamy because otherwise. You're going to be creating all these violent men because they won't be able to get find women to have sex with Because the women. It's it's it's one of the ways. In which peterson saying the same shit as the in cells. Because he's he's like the insoles are like well. Women will always just try to fuck all of the chad that they can have no desire the only reason they would fuck anyone who isn't a an alpha is if that person has money and then they're just going to cheat on him every chance that they get Because their their animals and peterson is a little bit more like restrained than that. But he's basically like the in terrorist attacks are coming up with the fact that these men because women are so hyper gama's right having sex like because a small number of very attractive men are having sex with all of the women. There's no women for these these Unattractive men to have sex with. And that's where all these shooters are coming from it. So the government needs to enforce monogamy like that's jordan shit. Yeah i mean isn't it doesn't jordan peterson. Currently dying of eating too much meat like much like it's funny. Because i look at a lot of these pictures of these insults. Take themselves and for everyone. I know a ton of guys who look like you or who you would even consider less good looking than you who have a lot of sexual relationships that are very fulfilling. You know why because they're interesting talented people who are nice and who care about other people and listen to them and don't try to game affi- every relationship and it turns out that matters more than your bone structure lake. Yeah it god i mean. It's like whatever it's so demonstrably true that it feels like silly to even say out loud but like traditionally attractive men. Who do this shit. No one wants to fuck them or someone wants to get to know that person. It's it's it's a behavioral thing. I don't know the the the reach people will do to that. Makes small behavioral adjustments that are critical of their own behavior They will literally kill people. It's wild amazing because like yeah you know just kind of from from coming up for a long time and sort of like the poly community I know a lot of guys who are like very charming and very good at Being romantic and you know what the number one thing they all have in common is is that they're really good cooks and that they're very good at providing something that is both attractive and pleasureable like it makes them more pleasant to be around. They've make wonderful food which is also them exhibiting of fact that they care about the other people that they're nervous behavior goes nurture taylor original thing. We're talking about from the sixties of layup. Oh god bone structure shower and learn how to cook. It'll take you further literally. Take a shower like out. Take a shower You know it may not. It won't get perfect but it'll help will. He's a missed. You'll be healthier. Because learn how to cook i in my experience it has never hurt to log out and take a shower. No matter who you are it's amazing because like one of the communities that kind of forms in the twos and thirteen fourteen. Fifteen is a the mig towels min going their own way. Just like forgot about. Yeah we're gonna talk about him a lot but like their men mostly divorced men who were really angry at women have decided that sex because women are inherently toxic and trying to steal for men men should separate themselves entirely from women and the only way like the branch like pash. Okay that's what i thought. And they have. I've spent a lot of time in their communities to and they will share recipes. And my god jamie. It has always the saddest thing on the fucking often just popping a frozen chicken breast into the oven insulting it. it's heartbreaking. I cannot cook for shit that yeah. That's wow wow it's amazing So yeah as we were talking about like all of these red hildmann Former community called p. way. Hey pick pickup artist hate Because they get angry that pick up artistry techniques. Don't work for them. And in the spring of two thousand thirteen an angry young man named elliot rodger found. Pe- away hate dot com. Yep yep in a manifesto he later. Wrote roger noted that. Npa hate he had found a forum full of men who are starved of sex. Just like me what. He read their confirmed many of the theories. I had about how wicked degenerate women really are. I can't not go into the ben. Shapiro voiced by starting. That's like i feel like that's kind of a when i was trying to get earlier of being surrounded by confirmation bias like before you will even try something you're being told by a million other people that it's not going to be possible and don't try and here's something else you should do that scary instead yip now. Yes through pea away. Hate red elliot. Rodger discovered the red pill constitution which was written by a group of men who came to be known as in cells. He deliberately copied from them in his manifesto when he wrote quote there. Is something mentally wrong with the way. Women's brains are wired. They are incapable of reason or thinking rationally in. They're incapable of that because they don't recognize that. Elliot rodger is the greatest guy ever damn classic supreme gentlemen elliot rodger women do not liking elliot rodger. And that's on. I the reason he thought he was. The supreme gentlemen and women had to be mentally ill for not falling in love with him is because he had fallen i into all this pickup artistry bullshit right he done all of the pickup artist techniques. You know he he done all of these things that we're supposed to buy unseen ribbit or exactly. But the acting as they were supposed to do that must mean. Women are irrational. Yeah he is seeing them as. Npc's you know. Yeah like yeah. They've they had. I mean that all whatever. Yes i had a fucking screaming match with my college boyfriend over. Npc behavior That god continue and the case of elliott. If i remember correctly he basically went through the entire checklist. He did. The he the fancy clothes situation. Yeah we're gonna talk about that. Yeah so he had tried to attract women by acting in his words. Cocky and arrogant might have a note for you. There elliott down other men as betas. When this did not work he complained. Men shouldn't have to look and act like big animalistic beasts to get women the fact that women still prioritize brute strength just shows that their minds haven't fully evolved acting what women want onto them based on no evidence okay. Cool cool cool yeah. Women are not drawn to indicators of evolutionary fitness. if they were they'd be all over me all right. We're just going to let that go. 'cause i can't make heads or tails i know eliot. Jesus christ elliott spent. His dad was like a hollywood producer. Alliot spent a huge amount of the scholarship. That yeah on fancy clothing. In order to picot this quote from one of his posts gives you an indicator of how he probably came across when he was flirting with women. And jamie i might vomit reading this. So i do apologize if that happens and we have to pause this moment. I'm down to watch a vomit. Thank you never insult the style of elliot rodger. I'm the most stylish person in the world. Look at my profile pic. That's just one of my fabulous outfits. The sweater and wearing in the picture is five hundred dollars from neiman. Marcus guided a job. Blue line marquess. He wrote in his youtube videos. Talked like if you if if you were trying to script like the worst man in the world for a tv show or something tab the villain and you wrote them the way elliot rodgers spoke and wrote about like his own thoughts. No one would believe you. It stayed up. Yeah it's like it's fucking cartoonish. I i honestly. I don't know that much elliot rodger because i just i don't know when when all that shit was going on i just remember actively trying to not learn anything about him if i could possibly help it Because there was so much information. I think that was also a time where it was the first wave of like. Let's stop giving all these fucking people so much airtime and i was. But i don't know. I mean elliot rodger i mean. Yeah he's such a fucking cartoon shows that even men who hated women could hate elliot rodger and not see any of his stuff a lot. I know but but even i'm i'm thinking of like i don't know even guys guys. I knew at that time. Who had very misogynist outlooks and attitudes who had no problem being like. Oh look at elliot rodger. He's such a fucking loser which he is. But but not also not recognizing that a lot of you know what elliot rodgers core. Belief system was was reflected in their behavior. So yeah he believed a lot of the things you did. He just was way too weird. And yeah just fucking a lose your. There's much of a loser for two for any. Yeah it he was. I don't know this is probably a mistake to word at this way jamie. But i'm gonna do it for comedy. Elliot rodger never popped his cherry but his manifesto popped my manifesto cherry. Because i think his was the first manifesto regular not no. That's that's in there forever evac internet. Now i really am like having like flashbacks to talking to young men around the time of elliot rodger and it was like just not a good time just not a good time at all to know talking to men my own age and this is the same year. That gamergater happens right twenty thirteen. yeah Through thirteen right right. He was a little bit before Right in that time so from. Pa hate dot com. Roger found the alone sub reddit an early online home for in insult. He found the shot. dot com. Who's congregated around threads with titles like it upsets me seeing all the hot babes. I can't have sex with communities. Many increasingly radicalized in cells celebrated the actions of george so dini those nine after writing about being constantly rejected by women so dini went on a shooting spree. He killed three women and injured nine more going so dini became a shorthand term. For what many of the in cells around roger wanted to do and you all know the next part of the story on the end of may twenty third. Two thousand fourteen elliot. Rodger went on a killing spree in isla vista california murdering six and injuring fourteen. His manifesto became a foundational document for the insult movement and inspired multiple deadly. Rampage is over the next seven years. I feel like this also was one of those things that really put a highlight on the meat because the media only talks about him. They didn't talk about your eight. Yeah i mean a lot of friends who were. Uc santa barbara at the time of this and that was one of the things that was it. It was highlighted so much in the you as a result of how it was highlighted. How prominent this guy became in cell. Stop saying going. So dean started saying going yar or just like e. r. as elliot rodger as as a code for going on a shooting spree to kill a bunch of women and there have been four or five in cell mass killings and a number of at least one of them is involved a guy just renting van in plowing it into crowds of men and women. Obviously men always wound up also getting attacked by these which you could kind of link back to the early men's liberation movement and the fact that all of this misogyny is also a deadly threat to men like you know like it's it's it's comprehensively a poison. It's good stuff Super row boy car. Well what i mean. It's it's always a dark time by a. That was a dark time to be talking to twenty year. old man yacht. Good yup in. That jamie is more or less where we are now There's more the man was fear of course. Is the mid towels gamer gate winds up kind of intersecting with this in a number of ways You can learn more about the manas fear in about all of this this poison and how it continues to this day on the wonderful blog. We hunted the mammoth We're terrell has done a great job for years of documenting the stuff. The title of his blog is based off of thing. These guys would keep saying about like women. Basically women s because our ancestors hunted mammoths fourth proven fervent. So jamie i think this provides us with enough context to begin our exploration of the sigma mail. And we're gonna talk about that book on thursday. I love it so do i. Jamie plug well. This is brought up a bunch of bad memories. i guess you can It's always michael can always Foamy on twitter dot com. Where i'm trying to be as little as possible Jamie left his help. You can listen to lead a podcast. And i would recommend highly recommend and where robert is giving the performance of a lifetime leading weekend and week out and i would recommend the kathy cartoons. I recommend jamie just as a person i also. I'd recommend i'd recommend robert. I end i would. I don't know about the knife. I haven't met very good. It's nice is a fourth presence in in would feel wrong not to address made curtis holland of free free weights. Just just incredible stuff is not paid me. I have just paid him a lot of money. But i'm just in love with knives so fight toxic masculinity buying a knife and stat. Nope okay so we're starting we're rolling. Are we already recording notes so official. Hey guys it's brian. Baumgartner maybe you've heard my podcast. An oral history of the office where we go deep into the making of the show now. Well you can go even deeper. That's what she said. Because i am sharing my full length. Conversations with the cast and crew of the office. Listen to the office. Deep dive on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you hear people have a podcast. I'm janine rubinstein. Host of people every day a new podcast from iheartradio an people. There's people magazine this visit. Join me every weekday for a look at the stories driving the people newsroom. Their names sound really good together. So that's important first job right wild and styles. We'll have the latest from hollywood exclusive interviews. Take off my nail now. We're minka walk around naked and introduce you to people who are making a difference in their communities when talk about the permanent changes that biden's brains we kind of that conversation down. We say there's an impact but we don't talk about a listen and subscribe at apple podcast on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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