20 Episode results for "Michael Goldfarb"

Wednesday 7 November

Monocle 24: Midori House

29:53 min | 3 years ago

Wednesday 7 November

"You're listening to Midori house. First broadcast on the seventh of November two thousand eighteen on monocle twenty four. Hello and welcome to Madari house coming to you live from studio one here in London. I'm Andrew moolah on today show, what CNN should be ashamed of itself having you work in for them. You are a rude. Terrible person. You shouldn't be working for CNN. Go ahead. President Donald Trump reacts to yesterday's midterm elections with his customary grace and self awareness. My guests Michael Goldfarb and Jacob power killers will be taking an extended look at what we learned yesterday. And what it might tell us about the second half of Trump's first term. That's coming up on the Dory. House on monocle twenty four. Welcome to Midori house. My guest today are Jacob para killers deputy head of the US and America's program Chatham house, and Michael Goldfarb, the journalists and broadcast welcome both. And as promised an extended look tonight at the first US midterm elections that anybody bother candidates unusually punk tilles citizens and friendless cranks has ever cared about. Not for the first or last time president Donald Trump's in addressing effect on politics has not had quite the outcome. He might have desired. The Trump has failed the vote as a big victory. This is a little like hailing Eric Trump as a future Nobel prize winning physicist. I e an active heroin optimism, though, Trump's Republicans consolidated their grip on the Senate. They did lose the house of representatives that press conference from which we played a clip at the top of the show is ongoing as far as it's possible to tell Trump has not yet started hurling the actual furniture at the assembled journalists. It does seem to be only a matter of time. Jacob does Donald Trump actually have any reason to celebrate. I think the the Senate is I mean, he has reason celebrate it's not unpredictable reason celebrate the Democrats did pretty well in the Senate relative to the number of races that were actually up for election. Relative to where those elections were being held many of them being in states that went for Trump just two years ago that said the looks like depending on the outcome in Montana. Arizona it looks as though Mitch McConnell will be commanding at least fifty two and possibly fifty three or at a stretch fifty four votes, which means that he will have an even freer hand to pass through nominees from Trump, whether those are future cabinet officials federal judicial appointments even potential next supreme court Justice. So that is a reason celebrate and if he's thinking in longer term since the twenty twenty and twenty twenty two cycles quite as rosy for the Republicans. It gives them a little bit more leeway. It means that the Democrats have to work that much. Harder to take back the Senate and potentially face a second term, President Trump with a unified Democratic Congress. But the house is a disaster for him. There's no sugar coating that on which subject Michael that is the one thing we do definitely know for sure is that the Republican party no longer control the house of representatives. How constrained does? I mean, obviously constrains any president. But this particular president how constrained is he likely to be by Democratic Congress. Well, it depends first of all let me put a caveat in on any outsor- here. It depends on if if the Democrats can get themselves together and had some big if. And and behave in a you know, like they have a backbone, and it's not clear, you know, what? I mean, Nancy Pelosi is the speaker of the house in coming in in theory. But she may face the challenge, she's seventy eight she knows more about where everybody's skeletons are hanging, and that's very useful. But you know, there has to be a changing of the guard. Sometimes having said that let me answer your question. Andrew the house, oh has become the battleground going back twenty five years to nineteen ninety four when Newt Gingrich and led the Republican charge on the contract with America congress. Most people listening to this probably still in grade school when that happened, but it has more than set the tone for the following quarter-century. They have accumulated power in the house to do two things in a really important one is subpoena. Power. And I can I can envision a sequence where Robert Mueller who who's been. You're not related. We are not no he has been decorous point during this election because he's a decorous kinda guy. He's a Republican of the old school Mueller will eventually produce his report the Democrats control the house now, they control all the committees. If there's a question about banking. You will see subpoenas about banking? If there's a question about Trump's relationship with the Russians you will see the foreign relations committee subpoena hang him about that. They will tie her up in more paper than Donald Trump's lawyers used to tie up people trying to get paid by Donald Trump back in the days when he was just a real estate developer. And that will be the story. I do believe if the next twenty four months, there is also another thing which has to be considered which is the Democrats now control the house of representatives appropriations bills the much. Money starts in the house, if he really wants money to finish the wall. He's got to get the Democrats to do it if he really wants money. Stop the wool come to start the. I if he really wants money to bail out all those farmers who voted for him and have now been screwed fifteen ways from Sunday because soybean prices have collapsed and the New York Times had a brilliant article forty eight hours ago about these mountains of soybeans in North Dakota that cannot be sold because of Trump's idiot tariff policy with China. So this is this is where I feel I should do the narrative voice and say, but Trump didn't care, but Trump didn't care and they voted for me they'd vote for him again tomorrow. And I and so when Trump says only two billion dollars to bail these guys out who are my voters. I certainly hope that the house appropriations committee says stick it where the sun don't shine sunshine can I fake sunshine. Can I just come in on the the first point there on the question of investigations because I don't disagree, but it actually a modulated somewhat because it's not just the Muller investigation. It's also been this is a target rich environment. You have. Fourteen separate investigations into Ryan. Zinke the interior secretary. You have ongoing questions about the at HHS secretary, Tom Price and his use of private jets. You have ongoing questions about the use of public funds by Scott Pruitt, former EPA administrator you have Jared Kushner security clearance, you have the secretary of commerce Wilbur Ross and his belated declarations of conflict of interest. And you know, and that's just off the top of my head. There are probably things in departments that have attracted no media attention whatsoever. Housing and urban development energy that have not been examined at all by either the press or by the relevant oversight committees. We should both fly back to Washington and see if we can get jobs as hill staffers. They obviously have to ramp up their staff there will be a lot of call for you. You know, it's interesting Jacob is that the this is obviously an it's not an exaggeration. It doesn't matter what your political persuasion. This is the most corrupt. Government since Warren G Harding's administration the teapot dome scandal, and you may if I'm not mistaken, and you can correct me. Warren G Harding's head exploded about three years into his term. And he had a massive stroke and died two new or did he I don't think he was looking at up. I don't think Harding Dodd enough. Snow? Harding died office Twenty-three and this. And that was why teapot dome didn't end up. Those. And those points go to Jacob. Well, no, I'm saying. Jacob to verify because he's young and his memory isn't anywhere near as cluttered as mine. And and you know, this is this is the my most optimistic point the day. He was elected. I am doubling down on the air, Monica listeners. I said he wouldn't he would make he wouldn't last two years. I'm having to reconsider and one of the reasons that I didn't think he'd make it two years. A Miller would get him or be his health would fail and having watched the performance just now on of this bizarre press conference, if he were to do a Warren Harding and have some kind of massive stroke. Would anyone be surprised I think it's a little bit? I personally rather not get into speculation about the president's health. Obviously there are real questions. They are given the his his previous medical care in the persona of his former personal doctor. That was the personal doctor who said that Trump was the healthiest person ever run for the presidency. You know that the doctor certainly wrote himself in wasn't dictated by Trump, and then recant Ted and now claims that his his record relating to Trump were confiscated by people working for Trump. Nevertheless, I don't think it's up. I don't think it's particularly helpful to speculate about the president's health, even though it is a legitimate interest of the national the national body politic. But I do think there is something very real about the effectiveness of an administration, which is going to be besieged on all sides, not just on questions of potential Russian collusion, but cabinet members, the president family the president's business interests the president's aids who's going to want to the presents going to want to clean house. He's gonna want to get rid of some of his his cabinet members. But who's going to want to go in under these conditions? Well, we come up with a partial answer to that as we move on a little bit because the American political cycle being what it is. Today has been pretty much the first day of campaigning for the twenty twenty election at which one of the offices up for grabs will be the oval one. We are still away off the point at which challenges for the presidency, formerly make themselves known, but Democratic Party strategist will already be scrambling through the Rune scattered by yesterday's vote in search of if not the actual candidate for the presidency in two thousand twenty then some idea of that candidate might look like Jacob as a Representative of that younger generation. Did you see anything especially in the new faces of which they were many elected yesterday, some of them very far from billion significant we have now the two youngest women ever to serve in congress. I two Muslim women. The first native American women. First gay governor has been elected in Colorado is there somewhere in their if not any of those actual people who will probably still be young for this two years from now. In fact, a couple of them constitutionally literally too young for this two years from now. But is there some really dear of the future of the Democratic Party? So there's a lot of speculation. About Beto Rourke who very narrowly lost the Texas Senate race who is a member of the house of representatives of three terms. I think so he wouldn't be the least experienced person ever to run for the presidency. He did energize the tough to come off a loss though to run for president ruling. And did it. I mean that was long time ago. I mean, it's it's she can very credibly spin the idea that he may Texas more competitive he brought victory to down ballot races to Texas. Democrats running in the house he contributed to the the wave in the house. And I think he has a pretty substantial supply of goodwill from both the more establishment and the more progressive wings of the party. So I wouldn't rule him out. I wouldn't necessarily rule him in either. I think the the person who sends out to me. I mean, I, you know, my view of it fundamentally hasn't changed. I still think you know, some combination of Booker Harris gillibrand possibly warrant although I would say she her chances have. Diminished in the last few weeks are probably likely to be in contention for but in club char from Minnesota state, which is vaguely quite democratic but not overwhelmingly so held democratic in two thousand sixteen when next door Wisconsin and next next door. Michigan did not but only by a fairly thin margin. She won her re election, overwhelmingly, she got huge votes in in rural counties. She's relatively progressive. There's a lot of speculation that I've been able to pick up today on her as a potential candidate. She's been relatively quiet, but I wouldn't be surprised if she's today reconsidering her her potential candidacy Manca we were talking earlier in the show about the opportunities. The Democrats are going to have to to gum Trump's administration up with inquiries and subpoenas and investigations, but won't should be the democratic party's actual priority. From now to two thousand and twenty do they need to be thinking in terms of taking down Donald Trump or presenting. A positive case for the Democratic Party. Can they hope to show up in twenty twenty and win by basically, just not being Donald Trump will this is the subject of a documentary did those reporting Tober, and they they face of the face a real dilemma here. So I might my basic view is. They need to par. Those two points are not they're not dissimilar because the base wants them to to really hold not just Donald Trump's feet to the fire, but the entire Republican party one of the things that I found really interesting, and I was in Georgia and Texas quite a bit of time and two of the races. I I was paying attention to candidates are met. They're still counting the votes. I mean, the votes have essentially been counted hundred percent of the votes cast yesterday have been counted. But now they have to open up all the postal ballots. And so on here's what I learned is that the energy in the party is incredibly progressive. And it's it's mostly it's not just the young. It's brought the young out, and that's good. But Bernie Sanders started doing that two years ago. What's important is that they sustain the leadership of the party sustains the idea that now that we've got this far we're not just going to go back to businesses usual in the house of representatives, which is why commented earlier about why Nancy Pelosi will face some kind of challenge about becoming speaker of the house up. She probably will win because she's actually good at at moving things around the legislature. But we'll see what happens. I think that. The Democrats dilemma is how you can be both on the attack against Donald Trump and the Republican party which is putting his back pocket, and how you can be putting your own agenda Ford, but these candidates Lucy MacBeth Gina Ortiz Jones, remember these names because even if they lose they will be figures in the party, they managed to talk about healthcare. They managed to talk about all those middle class. And I hate that term because what does middle class mean anymore. All those middle class concerns of you know, the social safety net has been shredded people voted for Donald Trump. They voted for Donald Trump because they really hated Hillary Clinton if there'd been a better candidate in two thousand sixteen preps Donald Trump would just be a joke for late night comedians. So I think that the Democrats really do have to keep double focus. Do you have to keep pushing really hard because the base wants punishment. There's no doubt about that. But. The base also wants to talk about real policies. And I think they can do it. I don't think it's an impossible dilemma and a final thought because Jacob wants to jump in is the best thing the most important one of the most important things I heard on that trip is a guy named Richard Parker who was the founding editor of mother Jones magazine, what fifty years ago, and now teaches at the Kennedy School, and he said, look the biggest thing they have to do is find someone who's authentic bento Rourke burst through because he was authentic Kamala Harris in the cavern hearings burst through into consciousness because they're authentic. That's what they need to find the one thing. I'd add that none of which I disagree with is that I think there might be some value in the Democrats having house, but not the Senate strategically because the people doing the investigating are Elijah Cummings Adam Schiff, these these long standing committee chair people and committee ranking members. None of whom with the possible exception of chef seem to have particular near-term presidential ambitions and someone like Cummings who's in his late sixties probably doesn't have presidential ambitions at all. They want to be a committee chairperson. Do the Java committee chairperson, maybe run for Senate at some point and that sort of? So there's kind of a natural separation between the parties rising stars in the Senate, the bookers and Harrises and gillibrand Zain club HR's and Bidault better or coup sort of doing his own thing a little bit. And then these these investigators so you can have on the one hand the the holding feet to the fire on the other hand, the advancing positive agenda. Now that assumes a certain degree of sophistication in the electorate and being able to disintegrate those two, but I've actually I actually think if you look at the the results and the sort of nuances and the results there is a fair degree fist in the electric. And you probably shouldn't underestimate that look we're going to take a short break. Now. You're listening to Madari house with. Me Andrew along with Jacob power killers. And Michael Goldfarb coming up up next. Indeed, the midterms in Florida the and finally state. Batman sitting opposite. You on the subway lost in another world or that smart women scribbling notes while having her flat white, well, here's what links listening to monocle twenty four Phya are free radio app. That simply and seamlessly lets you Choon in live. Download shows for later. Join meant just think you too could be settling back and joining cultural nourishment can form the Monaco arts review team briefed on the world that business with the entrepreneurs or just enjoying great music with the sessions at Midori house. Come on download the monocle twenty four out today. Dick on your headphones and having formed fun on the go monitor twenty four keeping an eye and ear on the road. You're back with Madari house with me, Andrew, Melissa. With me. I'm Michael Goldfarb and Jacob para killers now veteran contemplate is of American politics are long resigned to the caprices of Florida state, which has made a specialty of staging excruciatingly close races which often have an infuriatingly wanting to significance. Yesterday was no exception. The Senate race between incumbent Democrat Bill. Nelson Republican challenger Rick Scott appears to have been settled in favor of the latter by fewer voters than might have been distracted on route to the polls boy fight with an alligator the gubernatorial scrimp between Republican Ron Disentis and democrat, Andrew gillum. Also went the GOP's way by a tiny tiny mountain, but Floridians voted enthusiastically to restore voting rights to convicted felons who have served the sentence. Jacob rising above the obese jokes about Floridians, which I am as an Australian probably entitled to make nearly ten percent of Florida's voting population. Are rather were affected by this? So how big a deal could this be a future elections, unbelievably massive. So this is one point four million people in a state where I mean, I'm I'm old enough to remember two thousand and the presidential election decided in Florida by five hundred seventy one votes in the hanging chads, and that's not uncommon every national election info, virtually every national election, Florida since then has been decided by a margin measured to no more than five figures. There are a couple that were abroad arranged in that. But generally, speaking Florida's very closely divided state, and the this community of ex-felons, we're going to be Rian franchised is disproportionately African American Hispanic those are disproportionately democratic voting groups. So if I was a democratic strategist taking long view, I would say yes, bad that we lost the democratic. We lost the governor's race bad that we lost the Senate race, but the much bigger deal is Rian franchised in. In two thousand four I made a an hour long program called the mind of the south because the confederate mindset still frames far too much of it's the agenda center agenda, Saturn for too much of American politics. And I was in Tallahassee, and I went to an interview with one of Al Gore's team of lawyers locally, and he told me that you know, he he had urged Gortat just Amanda, total statewide recount don't don't concede you one. And then they put me in touch with a guy. I think is first name was Andrew, but his surname was Johnson. He was an African American and I went down to his church to meet him. He's a deacon of his church sang in the choir. He had gone to vote two thousand and been turned away. Why because his surname is Johnson, which is an extraordinarily common. Name amongst African Americans. And somebody said well you fell in. It's not me another Andrew Johnson may have been. What are the odds are? Yeah. John johnson. James johnson. You know, an and this was in a state that was decided by three figures couple of hundred votes. If you think of an he wasn't even a felon. If you think of the thousands of people were disenfranchised just because they're the same surname as a felon. I think that this will serve emitted make huge actually more than one point four million. I mean, yeah, it's possible. I mean, it's a very effective tool of voter suppression in the African American community, you know, if you have, you know, certain surnames common, you know, my last name is Goldfarb. I don't think anyone doubts. You know, what my ethnic background is. And if your surname is Johnson in in parts of of America. There's not a lot of doubt. And this is a really an it's pastime. Anyway, not even with voter suppression. You pay your debt? Science when I heard that. This was the law in Florida and in many other states besides. Dozen or also states that once you commit a felony your life, you pay your debt to society, and you should be able to be a citizen again. Okay. We'll finally tonight. We'll take a look at how these midterms affect the rest of the world, which possibly for the first time has paid any attention to the midterms. Well, nervous prognostication is that if President Trump finds himself stymied at homeboy hostile house of representatives. He may seek to express himself. Let's call it that abroad where any president does enjoy considerable if not familial executive powers is that a reasonable fear. Do you think I think it's a reasonable expectation? I I'm not sure so I think there's a scenario where Trump is more inspired to do risk to take risks to do things which are potentially very dangerous. But actually, I think that it's possible that the things that he will do by way of demonstra. Rating has continued power and relevance. Even when it's domestic agendas blocked, and his administration is being tied up in subpoenas are not necessarily things which will increase at least short-term risks. If you look at his big summit with Kim Jong UN, for example, which e. When you drill down into it. In terms of did it succeed in denuclearizing north create. Did it succeed in lessening long-term dangerous on the Korean peninsula? No, obviously. But the temperature of the sort of war rhetoric from Washington in particular, but concurrently from Pyongyang was dialed down significantly by Trump's apparently sincere belief that he had convinced Kim Jong UN to denuclearize. So I think there's a there is a version of this where Trump seeks to make deals he doesn't particularly pay attention to what those deals are. And again in the long term they may increase risk. But in the short term if it hurts war with Iran. That's probably a good thing. I'm not entirely sure I agree with you Jacob. We've got almost all the way through the show. We've agreed on every only competed for who gets to talk. I, but I worry about it is I I notice from afar dynamic in the White House that he is so easily. Attracted and basically board that. People within the inner circle can make policy on the hoof, and you have working as a national security adviser John Bolton is an extraordinarily dangerous fellow. And I my worry would be that. Well, Trump is fuming about Jim Acosta at CNN. And and you know, the the the subpoenas to see his tax records. Finally, because you know, the house is gonna wanna see those. He has addressed that at the press conference says he hasn't released these tax returns because the too complicated and people wouldn't understand. Oh, yeah. The because they're in Russian. Look. My worry is that there'd be freelancing going on. There are persistent reports that Jim Mattis who's who's the secretary of defense and seems to be one of the few vaguely sane people in the cabinet might be count. Or just finally had enough. Now, you know, and without Mattis to kind of confront, you know, a chicken hawk like John Bolton and say, you know, dude, we're not going to have a nuclear Throwdown with Iran, you could find pressures put in place and John Bolton is like Dick Cheney. I mean, he's a protege of Dick Cheney. He knows how to work the system. And so you have an absent minded president in one day, he wakes up, and there's a crisis that require may require military solution. That does have me worried. I have to say, I think that's a reasonable a reasonable supposition. I guess my point is more that I don't think Trump will intentionally create a war to distract think. That's pr-. Probably beyond him. I don't think he want. I think he is aware that that would almost certainly blowback against him. I think there's a real danger of miscalculation one of the the big dangers of the Trump administration has been that you don't have a coherent messaging. You have Natta saying the red line is here and pump Heo saying it's while maybe seventy five percent of where it is for Madison. Then Trump, you know, often the other direction entirely, and there's a certain degree of madman theory, where nobody really wants to test the US because they don't really know where the line is. But as people get inured to this, and you you begin to see risk taking behavior such as what Saudi Arabia has done not really necessarily punished then risks are taken more by external actors in the US may find itself in a crisis without the capacity to sorta strategically and coherently manage it. I guess I just don't think that Trump is as I say likely to in response to domestic pressures actually started war. I don't think that. Just just just finally Markel in in in about thirty seconds. Also, what really now should we expect from the next two years of Trump's administration will be more of the same? Yeah. I think it'll be much more of the same as the pressure piles on him. I think they'll be more public unraveling, and that sort of thing, and you know, I I've always said that it's a transactional relationship with the Republican party. They've got Mike Pence sitting there as vice president it's entirely possible that they just might urge him to go play golf on a permanent basis. Anything is possible. But is absolutely certain is it'll be a ratings hit that does bring us to the end of today's show, Michael Goldfarb and Jacob power killers. Thank you, both very much joining us up Matori house. The show was produced by Daniel Bates research by financial Augusta Pacheco and Gabriel de LA Sante a studio manage it was David Stevens music next nine hundred hundred entre preneurs, we've done you'll this more on the day's main stories on the daily at twenty two hundred with Paul. Those born a Midori house returns at the same time tomorrow eighteen hundred London I'm your host for that as well. I'm Andrew Miller. Thanks for listening.

President Donald Trump Jacob Trump Michael Goldfarb president Democrats Senate Representative Republican party Madari house Andrew Midori house Warren G Harding America Democratic Party CNN US congress Florida
Tuesday 12 February

Monocle 24: Midori House

30:50 min | 2 years ago

Tuesday 12 February

"You're listening to Midori house. First broadcast on the twelfth of February two thousand nineteen on monocle twenty four. I Lou and welcome to Midori house coming to you live from studio one here in London. I'm Juliette foster and on today show done deal sort of Democrats and Republicans we unagreed on funding the US Mexican border wall that avoids a partial government shutdown, but will Donald Trump's sign it off? Then every times on the votes against a deal. The risk of no deal increases. Gentlemen, talked about in the national interest. Yes, we should be acting in the national interest in the actual interest is in getting a deal agreed with this parliament is that true. All Britain's politicians using the Brexit crisis to resolve their own party differences at the expense of the nation. My guest, Michael Goldfarb, and Lance price will be discussing this. And the days are the top stories, including after Donald Trump supporter attacks BBC television cameraman at a campaign rally is it time for the world's politicians to wind down the anti media rhetoric all that plus. The. The other several. It's an east deputy prime minister gives the thumbs down to the country's Eurovision song. Contest entering is Matteo Salvini just tone deaf. Or does he have a problem with a singer called Mahmoud? That's ought to come here on Madari house with me shoot yet foster. Welcome to Dory. House. My guest today on Michael Goldfarb veteran journalist and broadcaster and launch price land is a political commentator also author of four books, including where power lies. He's also a former special adviser to Prime Minister, Tony burned. Also, a former news correspondent for TV. I remember reports. Very well. I do but gentlemen, thank you so much. Joining us welcome to the program. Now in a rare moment of bipartisanship, Democrats and Republicans put aside their differences to reach an agreement in principle of a funding the border wall between Mexico and the United States instead of the five point seven billion dollars demanded by President Donald Trump they proposed he should be given one point three hundred seventy five billion dollars. If the deal is approved federal agencies that were recently closed in the partial government shutdown. We'll have funding continued. The question now is whether Mr. Trump will sign the deal given his previous threats to call a national emergency. If he didn't get his wall money. So Michael Goldfarb has Trump being finally check mated or where reality now full seem to greenlight the dealer on my being stupidly optimistic. I've. You know, it all depends on how you define reality. In clearly Donald Trump to finds it in his own particular way. Which is of course, for lesser people who don't have a billion dollars in the Bank ticket to a rubber room, and and needles full of psychotropic drugs. I, you know, he'll spin it out as we're not sure first of all he said today after this tentative agreement was reached between Republicans and Democrats in both houses of congress that he wasn't sure whether he would sign it off nays Ville paid insofar as he's made to pay a price a political price for the first shutdown which lasted more than a month. And so his ratings begin to really go down. He's got a core group of about thirty five percent of the electorate that will stay with him. No matter what he does. And he's about down to that. I mean, people are fed up with it. I think that it's not clear, you know, this is all tinkering at the edges is still a bit. Billion plus dollars for some kind of, you know, something get it. I, you know, you some slats who can put up alone in the desert, and I hope he can actually come back after I finished yacking finished jacking talk a bit about about the border because I I've done a lot of reporting from the border and was there in October. And it's worth telling listeners what it's really like. Anyway, Trump will probably my guess is sign off on this. He doesn't want another shutdown. It's bad for him politically. And you know in the end, it's old limbo. I mean, this all this mighty will not get built. But it's an issue that is live for him. And that thirty five percent, and he can keep coming back and visiting it. And I think that actually suits him down to the ground. But I guess launch just picking up on this point about the challenge that he might actually be forced to grudgingly. Is that logic dictates? He should sign the deal. But having said that he's come from Pasa. He's been preening himself in front of his base. He's feeding pretty pumped up on a lot of adjoining. He's also quite volatile. Title. So that might actually persuade him to dig his heels in just for the sake of I guess, and he hasn't really he wanted to five point seven. No, indeed. I mean, Michael's much better qualified to want to the question the me, but looking at it from the outside, it seems to be that it's not really about a wall. It's about Donald Trump and his political base. And and it's about a dividing line with the Democrats, and he feels I'm sure that it worked for him in the last presidential election, and it won't trouble him in the slightest as far as I can see if the will hasn't been built come the twenty twenty election. He'd be delighted for it to be an issue again because it's a very stark dividing line in which he can stand there and say that he's defending national security. He's protecting the border against as he describes them criminals and terrorists, and rapists and whoever on the Middle East, according to Donald Trump's description of some of these. Yeah, go a little bit lost on the way. But yes. And. And he's, you know, the Democrats allow themselves to be put into a position where they are on the defensive in a sense of the traffic to the left right liberal, right wing divide. Trump Mayfield that he's got Democrats where he wants to some short term political benefits of the Democrats have oversea gained from it. But when it comes to a black and white horrible horrible presidential election campaign, which we can predict in twenty twenty then I is I suspect the Trump will be happy to have the wool unbuilt. Well. As it was with Warren, just eight seven clear that Donald Trump will be available to suit up for duty in twenty twenty maybe suiting up in an orange jumpsuit. I think that's being up domestic, but he may actually be been down in court by then now, I think that that he sees this. And I I'm actually my guess is Republican strategists. See this is yes, it's a stark difference. You know, we there is there are votes in the naked racist ploy. But it's a very short term ploy just to come back to to you know, the border the border region with Mexico, which was only officially settled. I mean, the final bits of the border weren't settled to like nineteen sixty four when Lyndon Johnson was president. There was still an island in the Rio ground not far from El Paso that needed to be it needed to be decided who's who's got this island. It's always been a very mixed in. It's been predominantly Hispanic even now the Republicans shoot themselves in the in both feet with, you know, a assault or shotgun because you know, the the core vote for the Republican party or small businessmen. So if you drive along the border, most of the small businesses are owned by people have Mexican ancestry. Some of them have been in the US for four or five generations, some of them have only been came over legally and established businesses and their children are the true legal residents. And it's based on a greater racism, and the thing is that it is mostly empty. It's an it's America's empty quarter. I drove for BBC World Service slants twenty years ago from Yuma Arizona on the border all the way to El Paso, staying close to the border as close as I could accept where its military land through some of the most inhospitable territory North America is nothing there. No one comes. Through there. The idea that you're going to build a wall. There is insane. And yet, it becomes part of this thing, we're going to keep the hordes away, and you know, in during the midterm election that was a thousand people marching up from Central America. Who who were they where did they go to? I'm still convinced that they were drummed up Hossa Bley by plaque up trying to to give the Republicans some kind of headlines. It's it's a mad situation and it strictly for electoral. And we're talking about here. Of course is the otics. Look, we we know what happened when Trump had to capitulate even though he denied that. He was he was giving him when the government departments were restarted, but it does appear that he was stung very badly to get very personally when you had right wing commentators who criticized him for this decision. Now, look Sean Hannity on Fox News again one of his biggest at Trump's biggest admirers. He's actually condemned this agreements, even though it hasn't officially come out into the war, so to speak, but what I'm getting out is how much of a home d- does the right wing the media, the commentators, the people who Trump really listens to how much sway will they have over his thinking on this. Well, we called afford to lose obviously needs to chain that part of the base because without on not part of the media support if you can call it that he's got at the moment because he's not going to garner anymore to his left. So he's only got the right to play too. And that is his electorate. So you know, he will be concerned about that. But he also have to weigh that up against and the damage that it does to his reputation and his ratings when for example, the shutdown. It becomes such an issue as it as it did in the state of the union address having to be postponed by a week as a result of it. And I think then when people when when voters are asked to weigh up and the position that he takes which he will continue to portray as being the strong man and standing up for middle class Americans little guy. And yeah. Way that up against the reputation for competence, of course, which every president needs it. If you see not to be doing his job, then not of damage him in a outside that thirty five percent. The extra fifteen percent or whatever it is needs to get. Okay. Let's move on to another subject, and we want to look at in. This course is Brexit. You can't get away from it. Really the purchase Prime Minister Theresa may has been updating parliament on her Brexit negotiation. She called an MP is to give them more time to push Brussels into agreeing. Her withdrawal deal whilst urging them to hold then of yet. As March the twenty ninth deadline for Britain's E U exit jaws closer, the political landscape has become ever more fractured talk of an early. General election has been ratcheted up along with rumors of a breakaway political party all of which begs the question, what is the point of Brexit is it about doing what's best for the country or perhaps using one of the most important issues in generation to settle political scores laws. Don't really know if it's fair to say that you've been stuck with the. System that she chosen it Tony in which case, very brave. But look, I mean is is it fair to say that Britain's political parties perhaps using Brexit to settle their own internal differences, and is it happening at the expense of the Cutler country because like it or not raw hardcore politics is coming into this and the way which perhaps is rather on settling. Yeah. I wouldn't describe it exactly what I would say is that Brexit and the result of the referendum, which the main political parties weren't expecting has exposed fissures within both of the main politics of always been the, but which the leaders of those parties have been able to suppress and control and contain in order to keep the coalition together, and they have to keep that the their respective coalitions together because they literally system that we have punishes divided parties and begs very difficult for new groupings of the kind that you alluded to to come through. But those divisions within the parties are now exposed. As never before over over Brexit and the real risk of one or both of the two main parties conservatives labour splintering is is there and the party is are staring that in the face. So when they make decisions about what the next tactical move should be over Brexit little taxes new strategy to tool that I can say on either side, and then they are being warned and by their party manages at both of them that if they take a step in the wrong direction, it could lead to split in the party. So you could easily have a situation whereby let's say, for example to reasonably were to move towards Labor's position on Brexit, which you could easily do and she could then have a majority in the house of Commons instead of being defeated by two hundred thirty votes, you could win by two hundred thirty votes, but should be dependent on labor votes that would spit her party because her right wing loonies would go off either split all nightlife as difficult for the group within the party the same. Happens on the other side on the labor side, if Jeremy Corbyn soon to facilitate Brexit, then there are quite substantial group of pro European labor people who are on the point already. Okay. Let's take this point of perception, Michael because as long as pointed out, look a lot of these divisions had already been there. And once euroscepticism was behind the hill. It wasn't really matter. Those individuals were confined with fringe. But now they're at the center, but how is it perceived by outsiders looking in outsiders like known non-parliamentary Ozora internet people living in the in the US or in or in whole what what is the the US few. Everything's easy except for Steve Bannon, who is you know, trots around the world and having lots of dinners with really odious people and encouraging them to be ethno-nationalist, you die in the ditch types, and we'll come onto Matteo's Salvini later in the program over Eurovision song gone. But look, you know, I I'm listening to Lansing and. This is. The nation. This is the society, and it's these petty petty awful awful career decisions that MP's are making, you know, about two months ago, you could come into who come into the studio. We'll be talking about second referendum. You know? And and there was you could tell that on the Tory side, and in the labor side there were prominent parliamentarians who were openly talking about the need to go back to the people and having a people's vote. Where are they today? What risk is Hilary Benn prominent labor MP taking with his career to stand up and say, look this is just not working now. And we've got under fifty days to get get something through on Brexit, and where is amber Rudd in and out of the cabinet. But where is amber Rudd to say, look, you know, this is a resigning matter for me. You're not doing this. Right. We are completely left a. Drift while these things go on and now and what happens in the vacuum. Yesterday. I was doing some Bundy tree somebody said June. I hear there's going to be a general election in June. Really really are you sure today? It's been brought forward to may. And I say really where is this coming from? These are all rumors that come out of Westminster. Don't you understand that? I think it's forty eight days today. I think it's forty eight days to to Briggs day. You know, let's not worry about what happens next that's worry about either a extending article fifty which is I still think the most likely outcome or be figuring out how we're going to, you know, get enough loopholes over. With the night's game. But there is a much bigger question as well. The Paul from whether we think that politicians writing in their own self interests of of of the country. It's what this does to British politics in the future. Because one of the biggest enemies of governments. When there are election is voter turnout voter apathy and given the way that the parties have conducted themselves, if this it really does big question, what is the point in voting for these people because the caliber of MP's that we have two notable exceptions. It's pretty poor. If we judge them on how they've handled the Brexit negotiations the whole process done real damage to the reputation of British politics. Of course, it has. And whether that's people looking in from outside who used to look on Britain inside might disagree with decisions of British governments took. But actually, we were pretty good at governing ourselves, and we were pretty competent, and we were pretty sensible, and we looked after producer interests globally. The fact that the British government is now. Set on calls and has been for more than two years, which it knows it self will weaken Britain, both economically and in terms of its influence in the world. But nobody's really Mitzi. That is such happy. Well, you know, if you look at the if you look at the full costs, if you look at the full costs the official government forecast come out, they all say that we've got to be a poor conference results. But that is the point that even though their own departments saying, look, this is a home the country. There is a denial on this. But to be fair to them for second. So the politicians wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't disagree with your view that we have a pretty second rates have not third-rate bunch at the moment compared to what the move had in the past. You shouldn't actually hold up to many Palestinians as as as magnificent. But anyway, what I would say is you do have the referendum result. Now the referendum took place only in order to solve the division problem in the conservative party. So that is why we had a referendum in the first place. But given that the people were given the opportunity to express view and did express view, then I don't think it's unprincipled of the government to seek to put that into practice, but they should be prepared to allow the public to look at the consequences. Now another detail of it. Now, we know exactly all we don't know. Exactly. But we know better what they what Britain's future outside the European Union would look like to to to give them another opportunity to express an opinion on it. But I would also say that those people like profoundly disagree with on the far right of the conservative part to the not just doing it out of self interest. They genuinely believe what they say. And the. Moderates do as well, they're just but the but the parliamentary arithmetic very hard for any of them to just want. Last quick point is to say that what what's been interesting is that this has been a process that's been going on in the conservative party's since. Margaret Thatcher was overthrown on this issue it among others. But this was the the sufficient condition to to have her removed from office. But what it's done is exposed the labor party. And and it's very clear that, you know, Jeremy corbin's whole thing's been I want to get a general election because two years ago at the general election labour had an unexpectedly good showing, but the fact that corporate has embraced Brexit now in such a way all of the current opinion polling shows that if there is a general election come may or June. I if that rumor has any credibility, it's labor that will pay the price and the Tories may well end up with an actual majority not a big majority, but an actual majority. Okay. Well, let's move on my guests on Michael. Father and lunch price because a supporter of the US President Donald Trump has attacked a BBC cameraman at a campaign, ready and L Paso, Texas. A man wearing a make-america-great-again cap pushed swore, it's Ron skins. And other news crews before being pulled away as the first time the prices had to deal with still t- for Mr. Trump supporters in the Boston, very recently that Mr. Trump has described the media as being enemies of the people and peddlers of fake news critics fear that if he doesn't tone down the rhetoric these confrontations cannot cheat get much worse. And in fairness, Michael Goldfarb. Mr. Trump isn't the only one who if you want to put it. Bluntly has it in for the press. You've got the likes of friendship Tapert one in Turkey. You've also got victim Auburn in Hungary. The list is endless. He may head out that list, please part of them. Arrival released crew elite for the wrong reasons of calls. Well, there's no comparison or one does doesn't wait for the crowd to you. Just put them in prison puts here they're more journalists in Turkish prisons than any other. Country in the world. I think I don't know about Orban's record. What he does is. He simply buys up the press, and then hands it to his cronies, and they just fire all the journalists who might report matters that don't reflect well on Victoria, don't get an objective price. You'll fed and official exactly. Whereas in America, it is quite dangerous. And and and it is also actually when I read about the BBC cameramen being roughed up this morning one. I was actually surprised that it doesn't happen. More often because things really do get ugly at those rallies. And it reminded me of something that happened to me in nineteen ninety eight I was covering the good the referendum process for the Good Friday agreement ratification process, and I went to Ballymena Northern Ireland, and Ian Paisley who was against the Good Friday agreement was holding a rally in in an auditorium. It wasn't probably about fifteen hundred people and he started the rally with that five minute. Diatribe against the foreign press. You know, the press they lie about us. We the good people of I mean, his usual thing. There was no mixing board at this rally. So I had to literally stand in front of Ian Paisley with my arm up in the air, and and my microphone attached, I work in radio, and he really worked the crowd up, and it and and a guy in the front row actually said and in a way that I wasn't frightened. But he did sound like you mean it kill them kill them, all and paisley hurt. It. I know he did because he then chilled the crowd out a guy like Trump who is without doubt. A skew skilled demagoguery at least four his base. They buy into his performance is capable of bringing eight thousand people to a frenzy of hatred. And this is what he does with the press. And that's why some sort of surprise that. It hasn't happened. More often the first time. Happened by the way, but it is a dreadful thing. And it's a dangerous thing because a mob shorelines has been in some scenes as well, they're pretty bloody ugly. It can get very Bruce to me that that was the experience that you went through northern we've seen, of course, what what happens at a Trump and the United Kingdom does seem pretty tame by comparison because you tend to have politicians criticizing the BBC, regardless of their political persuasions, they've all they've all had some criticism to make. But the general perception is that the the printed press in the United Kingdom tends to be very conservative leaning. But again, perhaps not as rabid, shall we say in pushing the line some some dog us as count Paul's where in the world. Yeah. I mean, that's that's a bit of generalization, obviously. But I don't think we should be too complacent about situation in the United Kingdom either. And the factors that populism breeds this kind of hostility towards the media wherever it. Arises and Brexit that we've been discussing is in its has opened the way in Britain to kind of populism on the streets. We haven't seen for a long time. So we've had a situation, and it's not just on the right? I mean, we we've had a situation where the BBC political editor had to have a bodyguard attending the labor party trolled. And and the attacks on line and the physical intimidation of journalists is at a level the moment in this country that I've never seen before in in in working in journalism for thirty five years. So we shouldn't be complacent about all we complacent. I think you're right to say that we generally feel that we conduct politics, and sort of decent decent way here. But we have to be on our guard all the time, and I'm put my hand up in the labor government that I worked for under. Tony blair. And Michael was there when when when Blair was in northern empathy for the of the Good Friday agreement we waged war on the press. It wasn't a physical wall. But Alice the Campbell mile boss spent most of his time deflecting criticism of the government onto criticism of the press. And he and he described it as a war on the press. Okay. Then let's move on to funnel part of the program. Say. Well, that was out of sound Mahmoud singing his way to glory Italy's. San Remo song festival with this victory. The twenty seven year old who performs onto the stage. Name Mahmoud will represent his country in May's Eurovision song contest. However, his success has not been welcomed by Italy's right-wing deputy prime minister Matteo Salvini criticize the jury for awarding him the prize for Salvini is not the song. That's the problem. But the singer who has Italian mother and an Egyptian father. So before we talk about that. I mean from that little burst of the song. Would you think of it his voice? Pretty dreary song. The ball of success at Eurovision, which will have to admit I religiously watch every year for reasons to come. To begin to explain vision party. Kasur? Yes. Mainly the Vicky out of proceedings into get very drunk and. But as the the ball of musical talent in Eurovision is pretty low and that one I'm sure will get the voter deserves the interesting things are pretty. The UK's version. But anyway, but Michael the Eurovision song contests. I it has called avoid the politics is always going to be like in north, but really Salvini out those that takes it to two different levels together. I mean to eighties frankly, racist knows his frankly racist, that's the point the and he he's close friends with Steve Bannon. About the song as yet. No. I I don't think it's his style. Italian pop music. Are you kidding me? Doesn't matter who's singing it. It's bad. You're listening to go to Italy for holiday whenever I have a few extra quitting my bucket. But I I never appreciate sitting in a bar enjoying a drink and listening to it talion pop music coming through. But look so Vini has is an ethnic nationalist. You know, this is a mic. He would regard this guy as mixed-race, and he's just going to be completely rude about it selfie would probably prefer Berlusoni to representivity has voice. He can sing food on on. Since Silvio to to the Eurovision content. I think he's missed the boats will not, but I mean, look we live in an age of conspiracy theories. There is one theory perhaps that may be Salvini to deliberately to boost mama's chances of winning. We all remember the bid lady from Austria. There was a lot of controversy about onto win. So it'd be a similar dynamic viewers hunters in Tel Aviv this year and the last time not lost time. But Israel, one with a transvestite singer Donner international Everton overturn years go very controversial. With Israel understand. I liked that so much. News that I believe the these rallies are choosing their and their entry deceiving. And and the whole favorite to win will be very controversial herself because she is Jewish mimics Arab styles and cultures. So. I mean, I just think that your vision is a piece of flan, we shouldn't treat it too seriously and the way in which gets dragged into politics, sometimes is regrettable and gives it far more credit than deserves. Although I have to say the last time that the UK won the Eurovision song. Contest was under. Tony blair. We've never once. Rest your case Katrina in the way, raccoon because I'm a skeptic head that we will get Neil because it will be the easy way of taking revenge. That's just might take guys. Thank you so much. We've come to the end of today show, Michael gold from on lunch price. Thank you for joining us hit and the Dory house. If you're wonderful insightful analysis, particularly about Eurovision lot. So we round your place in may for that party today show was produced by Marcus hippie. It was researched by Nando Gustavo Pacheco and Tereza anomaly studio manager was Kenya. Scarlet more music is coming up next nineteen hundred dollars is this week's premiere of Monaco on design, and we'll have more on the day's main stories on the monocle daily twenty two hundred Midori houses back at the same time tomorrow that is eighteen hundred London time. I'm Juliette foster goodbye.

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"What's the secret to a happy life for the answer? Join us in Madrid from Thursday, the twenty seventh to Saturday the twenty ninth of June for molecules fifth annual quality of life conference head to conference dot Monaco dot com for all the details and to buy your ticket monocle keeping an eye and here on the world. You're listening to Madeira house. First broadcast on the fourteenth of may twenty nineteen on monocle twenty four. Hello and welcome to Madari house coming to you live from studio one here in London. I'm Daniel beach on today's program. The wrecks it party led by right wing populace, Nigel Farage is polling. Very well ahead of the upcoming European elections. Those ones British politicians are just so thrilled to be taking part in my guess, Michael Goldfarb, and Robert FOX will be discussing what this means for Brexit negotiations and the future of the conservative and labour parties, and the president has made this clear, so as the secretary of state, we are not looking to get into a war with Iran. The US blaming around for apparent damage to four ships in the Gulf of a mon- we asked whether the incident will sink relations between Tehran and Washington. Plus we ask who may have been targeted after what's happened minutes. A vulnerability in its code allowed attackers to put Isreaeli spyware on users phones all that. Plus, the fun. Police have clamped down on boozing in the street in Tokyo, that's all to come on Midori house with me Danube h. Welcome to Midori house. My guess today. Our Michael Goldfarb veteran, journalist and broadcaster and Robert FOX defense editor for the London Evening. Standard. Welcome gentlemen. Book both back to the program intimidatory house. We're less than ten days away from European elections. Which Britain, of course, has been made to take part in the fault of politicians, of course, who agree on. Absolutely nothing that is around Brexit. And if you are to believe the latest opinion poll from the observer, Nigel Farraj, and his Brexit party are set to replicate. The good returns seen by his former party you Kip in previous ballots. The observer puts Brexit at thirty four percent of the vote more than both labour and the conservatives combined with the Tories on a dismal eleven percent. Michael how much has this shaken the Tories and the labour party? Well, I think it's certainly shaken the tours and the thing about the Tories is you'd think they'd be well, shake and after the less eighteen months, but this is a cone. Information for them that you know this. This has become the only issue in British politics, and they can't possibly win on it. And the idea is that their supporters are racing off to you. I mean, this is why we had the referendum in the first place last said if European elections everybody went off started going off to you get won't out. We won't out is what the right wing in this country's that thinks right wing isn't even the right terms. It robert. I mean, you just can't say it the nationalist strain in England to this nativist. That's a better word has become dominant in British politics in both major parties. That's be clear. It's less nativist in labor because it's led by you know, some old unreconstructed lefty who thinks somehow that the European Union is a capitalist plot against working people yet in his negotiations with Theresa. May he's insisting on uniformity of labor laws between the UK and EU. Once we leave because he understands that e you offers greater protection for working class people who have jobs as opposed to don't have dubs and yet he can't he can't see that dichotomy. It's a mess. Well for us as a good result from his Brexit party would force MP's to consider leaving the U without a deal, something they soundly rejected already. What do we think about that? Does that play into this narrative for you, Robert too? When. Real policy as opposed to politics and to the strange world of Nigel garage because it is really a truly fantastic world times. It's well dominance one point for the populist on the one hand, but he's no good at running things. He busts up every party. He's being in the party is largely about him as John gray said once in the garden in about ten days ago. He's the narcissists narcissist. I can just get my teeth run. But but the fact is. He is just we kommt I'm against I'm against this Michael spelled it that absolutely beautiful as to what everybody is again, it is this left behind rage, which is very worrying and rage goes with age too. Don't don't I know it and the this is this is part of the revolt. But the other part of your question is absolutely right. This is the strange death of Taurean gone. It's over for that party. It is to white. It's to middle aged it's to middle class. It's two male, and they beat they they've been warned that labor is fascinated labor is as as as Michael says that the most coherent group is McDonnell who is Graham shin. That is shameless mill who really is real ideolog sort of a former BBC director general Winchester, college one of the elite schools Baio color. Jogs food. But you know, I absolutely Pol Pot view of the world. He wants to go back to on Ozero the Italian say and in the middle. You've got Jeremy Kobe. I've got to get this one. I was listening to Jeremy Kuban and some of his closest supporters, and I wonder whether he's really bothered about whether UK or Britain if he ever comes to rule it should follow the path of nNcholas Maduro who Chavez it's really it is so unreal. Rumor can take that up with in the middle. You've got you've got the middle grind who have captured journalism and the media debate those one one and a half parties that are organized, but they're organized in a very base local level, and the Liberal Democrats and the greens at what is so interesting is this is not big written about oh commented on and should be. It's it's Tolstoy. Now, the beginning of Anna Karenina that happy families is happy the same way the world over. The I'm happy ones are unhappy in their each individual way at you watch in these elections, and we're not watching closely enough populism is doing in Europe. Like one of the I just wanted to make one last point about toys before we move onto populism in Europe. And that is Crispin blunt. There's this species for people who don't live in England are listening to this. There's this species of lifelong parliamentarians in the conservative party and Crispin blunt with perfect name is one of them. And today he actually said publicly that he expects that after the next general election because the other thing we haven't mentioned is Theresa May's possibilities or probabilities of reaching the autumn still is prime minister. She won't there will be a general election, and he was actually positing he that the Tories will hemorrhage so many votes to the Brexit party in general election that they would necessarily have to form a coalition with them to form the next governor. Now, if one of the most senior figures at the Tory backbenchers, and I'm talking about for a quarter of a century is saying, well, we're going to have to form coalition with Nigel Farraj is group. That is an extraordinary statement. I'm sorry shades of that is fine Morrison. Isn't it? It is absolutely trying to blunt comes from one of these families Michael's apps, you ride brigade of God's this sort of thing because of the word that came up when he mentioned one Crispin, quite well, and he absolutely exudes this aura of entitlement. And actually, that's the thing that social media everything else simply isn't buying and that is part of the genius. And there is a genius in the performance, the comedian della aspect of of whether he's Pirro or harlequin or whatever of Nigel Farraj, he's a brilliant performer at at at this of getting getting on UNESCO's touching the role nerve. And it's I said everybody everybody fed out if it wasn't a very. Light show. I do the stone Gohmert about this. But this is what you've got with Trump. It's you know, it's. The the death allergy of middle America. And and and so on and I follow my I think after general election. It is quite unpredictable as to what will happen. I don't think anyone can possibly. No. I don't think anybody knows. I mean, it's it's possible. Who I mean is it possible that Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't lead labor into a general election? If there's a total disaster in these European. I mean that is how an old for ably. Messed up politics are in this country, but you wanted, but you know, when you bring up the performance you've aspect of Nigel garage and the performance of aspect of Donald Trump, and you spend a lot of time in Italy. Robert, and you know, Matteo Salvini knows how to galvanize crowd Viktor Orban. I have reported from Hungary. And I know that when he goes on to. Television. He presents to Hungarians a kind of atavistic vision of what they should have been if the twentieth century hadn't been so cruel, destroying the Austria, Hungary and empire having them occupied by the Nazis, and then the Russians he seems much. It's all about the performance. And because they're the traditional ways of doing politics behind an ideology that leads to a policy that leads to. A program that you you present to the people and you find nice salesman. Like, Tony Blair. Or even Margaret Thatcher. She wasn't the greatest performer, but she was a good salesperson for a point of view. These people are both clowns as you say. Performing a tragedy. That's what's going on around. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly around Europe and in the United States. There is a new kind of figure that's coming through. And I'm surprised he hasn't had more in the serious. Prince more space is Tim tebow day in in the Netherlands. Who is I've flanking at though does. Because the other thing is that you can do this with his bogus conventional, and he has a whole theology based on on absolutely hard rightwing ee economics, which doesn't have much time for democracy funny. Oh thing that, but this kind of figure gives it sheen gives it a respectability, and this is what's going on. I think one of the dominant figures in Europe is going to be as Michael's already sprung. The name is going to be Matteo Salvini because my Taylor Savini is finding a way and he being not done over to the moment of saying the unpalatable with everybody believes, you know, challenging migrants say we can't go on with this with this kind of stuff. I think that you see. See again, initially. I know the European elections next week are going to be a huge opinion referendum this bound to be general election afterwards. And there I think Michael this. This isn't a method. I it isn't something that, you know, the point he headed common Terry at who's put together, you get people like firearm like they'll this but Bodet behind him or buying and you'll getting the the the background of the Trump team, but van are overeating international at me for goodness sake. What was Farraj doing appearing serially on the shock jock shows of Alex Jones? And we will see a lot of that. The the new populism is here. Funny enough, I think democracy and the parliamentary students in Britain are in grave danger. But I also think that the ho- cohesion of the European Union as well on that note for the record. I got two questions in. For those keeping score. We have to turn our attention now to the Middle East where US President Donald Trump is pointing the finger at a ran over alleged damage to four oil tankers anchored in the Gulf of Oman officials from Saudi Arabia say two of their tankers sustained quote, significant damage near the port of Giro just outside of the strait of Hormuz another tanker registered in Norway, fourth registered in the u a e US ally, the UI condemning the alleged attack off its coast while the Americans have been warning sailors of the potential for attacks already Iran borders, straight and is calling for a full investigation of its own accord, they've previously threatened to close the strait where a fifth of the world's oil passes through Robert what is the latest that. We know on this today. The the does seem to be some damage doesn't seem to have been substantial. So that's what's very interesting very load. Great great stuff, but they did it on detected which which is particularly interesting. But there is an addition to this. All right. So it's been breaking the story, and so has Societa d- press, and Reuters that Saudi Arabia says a drone tank, very primitive. Drones have been used to Laden with explosive to bomb two oil terminals, and they'll blaming this is Howdy Arabia. Not here on but that ally and clan the Hootie as of Yemen now, this is getting to be extremely interesting. If you've got who t- using very primitive drones and possibly being involved in very sophisticated packs. What the hell are you doing there with a huge great vulnerable aircraft carrier like ABRAHAM LINCOLN and sending a brand new ship the US Arlington which can carry six hundred thirty six US marines. I mean, where are we going with is we hear the clip off the top about the US definitely beefing up its presence. In the area. Is this a strange proxy war? We're seeing here what is this for a bit? So. Because you're young Daniel, and we know the monocle or young this as long as I've been a working adult. There's been tension with Iran going back to the nineteen Seventy-nine right Shen, the kidnapping fifty US diplomats. And then three years later. There was the his Bulla bombing of the US marine barracks. In beirut. The thing the largest loss of life actually in a single day probably between I think there may have been a day in the Vietnam war when there was a similar loss of life at case on may, Jack Kabo metallic and truck bomb, and they and and his bullets and Iranian client. We were talking about undetected little bombs being attached to big ships. There was the coal again. In just off the coast of the Emirates, look. And there's never been a war. There is this sick symbiotic relationship between the regime, the Craddock regime in Iran, and particularly conservative Republican governments in which. They come constantly to to the brink of war, and they never go to war. It's incidents without war shoot down an Iranian plane over the Gulf of the Persian Gulf the Gulf of Arabia, whichever side you prefer and then a year later in Germany Libya kills a bunch of soldiers in a terrorist attack on behalf. This is just one more incident. What makes it worrying and remember the Bush administration overthrew Saddam Hussein? And then within a year Iran was providing the I E DS that were killing American soldiers. They didn't invade Iran. What what is happening now and the only thing to worry about. But it doesn't worry me is that Trump is not as good at what he's doing essay Cheney and Rumsfeld and Bush were and they weren't. Very good at it. Because they messed up Iraq John Bolton. Who is it is living proof of how close American Britain is have come because you know in Britain. If you say go to Winchester and Bailey, all as shameless Milne, did then you're copped for the rest of your life to screw up the country. Even though you manifestly have no skills, it whatever you do. John Bolton is a graduate of Yale Law School, Saint Saint classes Hillary Clinton, by the way, and he's been comped through life ago. He got a degree from Yale Law. He must know what he's doing the national security adviser America doesn't know what he's doing. He can't even overthrow successfully. The Venezuelan dictator nNcholas Maduro. I can tell you because I've reported from Iran and from Venezuela. There's no comparison in these dictatorships Iran cannot be overthrown the way by sending an aircraft carrier all you can do is ratchet tension get lots of. Clicks on your right wing. News websites bump up the raiders at at Fox News. And that's what's going on. So I tend not to worry. I think Roberts worry. It's a dangerous way of boosting popularity. I think it's very worrying because you parallel parallel lines, don't meet, but they're all parallels with a weakish presidents will or intellectually weak in George W Bush and Rumsfeld Wolfowitz mothers running rings round him and being obsessed with Iraq because even with nine eleven within weeks. They were talking about, you know, the new really had to be done in Iraq at that very time. Bolton was still chattering away in whatever media. He could find saying that, you know, the real problem with Iran and Boten it seems from his latest pronouncements. Anyway, this year's pronouncements is heading four regime change goodness knows really. Why am I followed Michaels thought that that is non-strategic thinking you want to overthrow them? What are you going to replace them with and to what purpose, and the fact is if they really gotta go regime change, which Trump seems to be talking about half the time and this. Why the Israelis pulling back? It means ha occupation America, more or less has had a go at occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan and the equally disastrous look at today's New York Times full-page of Tory. The absolute disaster which everybody is turning and looking the other way in Afghanistan that's going on. Yes. Iran has a very firm grip on the Mukti regime in in in in Baghdad at the moment, if the Shiites got to come and take their place as as the relative majority it in the country, then you'll go together. I Iran women what we're looking at is a complete in illogic. Illogicality sorry to get that would it and the really interesting part of this is Bush himself, although he had Tony Blair, wasn't terribly. Good at allies. Trump is even worse. And it very interesting that one of the weakest though, quite bright foreign ministers in the European panoply. Jeremy hunt of the UK has said be careful we could be tripping into war, and I don't want to see the country committed to war by accident. Which was a message to his potty as much as to try to Trump Europe will not go along with Trump on this. And the people who really know it. Benjamin netanyahu. I'm glad to be uproot. And and that's I've been wagging my finger people can't see it because it's radio, and you can't see us. But look you mentioned he Trump is worse at allies than George Bush, and that's true. But there's one ally that we don't even think is an ally in that's Putin. And when I brought up Venezuela, very specifically. And and there is a connection between Iran and Venezuela in this way. Two weeks ago? It almost seemed as if there was going to be a coup to overthrow nNcholas. Maduro Guido was going to be installed. Trump had an hour and a half long phone call with Putin. He gave no readout of it Putin did. And basically Putin said no Madero is ours and Trump back down. He said what and tweeted, I don't know what what Joe what Mike Pompeo and John Bolton were saying their strong characters. But you know, we're not interested in doing this coup. Now, anyone who knows anything about the world knows that in Syria, Russia and Iran are propping up that regime, the regime of Bashar Al Assad anyone who's remotely knowledgeable at about geography realizes that you know, Iran and Russia our near neighbours separated by the Caspian Sea. And and, you know, former Soviet client states, I think that the main player here will have to be Putin. And if Putin says, you know enough, but no more I do believe that Donald Trump. I would probably say, okay and STAN John Bolton down because I don't think he pays attention to all of these Minuit, Michael detailer. I don't think Putin can for a millisecond contemplate regime change in Tehran. Because I think of the unsympathetic vibration to Mongol. A metaphor of physics that will go on through the throughout the Caucasus throw the stones. They are super a aware of this. But you'll quite right about Syria to that. This is the thing despite Netanyahu getting up and yelling and screaming that the Iranians are doing this bombing them and said, they mustn't be allowed to arm. Hezbollah Trump knows Putin knows. One knows that the Iranians are keeping Bashar Al Assad in power, and that really for the status quo at the moment suits, just about everybody all the outside players jets. We'll have to keep rolling on here and working. We're going to. We've we've mentioned it in Yahoo. A few times. But let's let's bring Israel into this this messy chat about. The Middle East. Let's look at what's at which has it has patched a vulnerability which allowed attackers to put Isreaeli spyware onto people's phones by ringing them up. This malicious code was developed by the secret of Isreaeli company NSO group with links to the military. I believe Robert you can you can clarify that. But this could be installed without people even knowing so what do we know about those who may have been targeted or or had this phone the realty. Well, it's not clear exactly who's been targeted on. Why one the wanted to get out of it? But this is just very very early days. MS? Oh, oh, it might have something to do with the military say to to to really be with by religious algorithms is the pope Catholic anybody involved in serious military tackle security tax, by way, in Israel is involved with the military. It is actually don't get me wrong. Eight as the military industrial state. I've toured Israel. I've actually been in an affiliate of of this company. And it was I watering they were showing us an exercise of a counter-terrorist exercise in accommodation Tel Aviv Haifa, or whatever and they were doing things jumping into people's Bobo phone messaging. I'm gonna take the name of very dear colleague in vain. I had Phil Johnson of the telegraph who is one of the outstanding home affairs in other words, interior ministry correspondence in in UK journalism in the last twenty five years. Hey said, look, you just would not be allowed to even begin to do this in either the US or the UK such as the state of of of of you the right to liberty and bedded. Privacy embedded in law. Don't the ready, Stu it. They are the world leaders. They have been at this for a very very long time for practically since my biotechnology cave made including planting infra targeted assassinations doctoring mobile phones would blow up in the unwitting re recipients face this is so, but we don't know where it takes us. It's punked of what we were talking about with with both stories, by the way, we have no idea where this technology. I is taking us a our and autonomous systems are the things in military security and homeland Brazilians that a gun to be out of human control or reasonable human control, if it's regime will regime, Theresa May, very very soon. It's not this is hypothetical. Yeah. I've seen it and it works. What what's interesting is first of all I deleted. What's up from my phone on the way down? Okay. I didn't realize, but apparently my mobile network had been down for seven hours. I thought I'd write this story. I knew we're gonna talk about it. Suddenly, I can't make a call out. I can't get online. So that these rallies saying about BB Netanyahu hit me through. What's that? So I took what that literally. I did I took what are you serious? I don't think they'd be worried about BB Netanyahu. They would they would be worried about us talking about the capability, and why it is a it finds a basic human and civil right in most western, and and it was it was a human rights lawyer, write human rights lawyer whose phone had been messed out. And and and that's how what's up found that they needed to do this patch. And but we don't know how many other people's phones have been. Infected? So Robert is right. The people who criticize Israel and Palestine just to slightly go off topic. What they forget is. Oh, well, if America didn't give Israel two billion dollars a year, then Israel couldn't defend itself. They don't get that. That's just research and development money from the Pentagon, the Israelis do it in Israel. They have developed systems that only geeks like us will read about that exist already. They then flog this stuff to to regimes that in theory have no relations diplomatically, they flopped it to the Saudis, even when Turkey and Israel were fighting over the mafia Marmara who how dare you. Stop this ship trying to sail into Gaza they were selling this stuff. This stuff is too good. If you're a strong, man, if you're trying to maintain control of your population, you want this stuff and. The Israelis have developed it in a very immoral very moral way. So that's part of the equation here. But again, this is stuff that's been known for a long time. I there's a guy the guy who said a Boeing Boeing, which is a popular website Corey doctoral about half a decade ago. He was telling me about stuff that they can switch your camera on in your laptop and watch you and God knows perhaps they do you're looking at pornography. You're looking at something you shouldn't they have a picture of your face doing it. They if they want to can do this. This is not new stuff. It's just the application the more and more. They do it. And let's face it coming back to Iran, just depended around. Do you remember Stuxnet who needs to send an aircraft carrier to Iran when the Israelis and American defense department's can stick a worm into you know, the computers that are being used to develop. A nuclear weapon and set them back five years come just say two things for please quickly one is that Israeli tougher market leaders and in going back to our earliest story in low level tactical drones they way way ahead. So we'll park that. But the interesting thing is the code the antidote this that I followed is with the Cosa Nostra, really the real cousin Australia, Sicily, where the was a semi literate. But absolutely brilliant leader in Corleone inevitably personal Prospero getting ninety and why they couldn't find him because they knew within two or three years of bible fangs being used in general that they were being listened to. And they switch them off, and he communicated, and he was only down the road from komo's Carleen, and he was an Abban beautifully converted in pizza because he used to send the laundry the pice men with the with these little be yet. These little these little written messages or verbal messages. And they realize that's how you how you get round. Technology by having no technology at a hell of a lot of organized crime still works leg that we shall leave. It there for today. Michael Goldfarb, and Robert FOX, thank you so much for joining me here on Midori house today show produced by Carlotta over Bella. Our studio manager Kenya. Scarlett, I'm Daniel beach. Thanks for listening.

Iran Hezbollah Trump Robert FOX Michael United States Britain Israel Nigel Farraj Brexit party Theresa May Putin England UK John Bolton Tories Europe America Michael Goldfarb Midori house
Tuesday 19 February

Monocle 24: Midori House

31:57 min | 2 years ago

Tuesday 19 February

"You're listening to Midori house. First broadcast on the nineteenth of February twenty nineteen on Monaco, twenty four. Hello and welcome to Madari house coming to you live from studio one here in London. I'm Daniel Bauge on today's show, sixteen states joined to sue the Trump administration over the president's move to ignore congress and fund his plan border wall with Mexico, my guests Isabel Hilton and Michael Goldfarb. We'll be discussing the latest and the day's other top stories, including China plans to create a new economic region to rival Silicon Valley which hinges on bringing Hong Kong and Macau closer to the mainland. We ask what it means for trade and the politics of those two regions, and we had to Brazil to unpack jog your boss narrows move to sack a high profile cabinet minister, very early into his presidency plus together you and I and our two thousand and sixteen campaign began the political revolution. Now, it is time to complete that revolution and implement the vision that we fought for. The field of contenders for the democratic presidential nomination grows ever larger with one very familiar Senator all that ahead on Midori house with me, Daniel beach. So welcome to Madari house. My guest today are Isabel Hilton editor of China dialogue, and Michael Goldfarb veteran journalist and broadcaster. Welcome both to the program. We begin by turning our attention to the US and the latest in a constitutional crisis where sixteen states have joined in a coalition to put forth a lawsuit over Donald Trump's plan to use emergency powers to pay for a border wall with Mexico. The lawsuit was filed in San Francisco and argues, the president does not have the power to divert funds because it is congress that in fact controls spending Trump declared the national emergency last week when lawmakers declined to give him the funding. He so desires presidents have declared states of emergency more than sixty times in the past forty years, but never after congress rejected funding for a particular policy. So Michael, New York and California have joined this lawsuit. Huge states. A lot of poll a lot of power is Donald Trump concerned about that. Well, he predicted this. For a man who's often wrong. He was actually writing this a stone. Astonishing piece of performance art last Friday, when he gave a press conference in the rose garden, he rambled on and explained he was going to do it. They were he was going to get sued. They'd soon the ninth circuit, which is a federal court located in San Francisco. I is a really interesting thing because. In my lifetime. America has gone through the looking glass completely when I was a kid people who were against civil rights voting rights for African Americans would say, the states, individual states have the right to make their own laws on these things she had this Cole of states rights, which was the rallying cry of the confederacy during the civil war. And so now, you have you have Trump in the form of you know, but an imperial like to be the emperor of president and the state's rights are the liberal states. They are saying, well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we as the states had expected certain monies from the federal government, which you are raiding to build this wall. That's not legal because this is money that's pledged from the federal budget already for us to internet drugs because that's at a state level as well as a federal level. Certain defense spending is dispersed at a state level. Not at. Federal level. So they're suing as I it may seem to listeners that that that's a bit, you know, abstract and not getting it the moral importance of saying, why don't you just don't build an eighteen hundred mile long wall on your southern border and against a non-existent immigration hoard. But in fact, the way to stop this is in the courts, and it is entirely likely that the ninth circuit will find for the states and put a block on the money that Trump needs to build this wall, and might well say it isn't a national emergency or call on the Trump administration to detail further. What is an emergency in this situation, which would be hard to prove since? In fact, there have been fewer people crossing illegally from Mexico into the United States in the in the last few years than at any time. So this looks set to go. Further. The ninth circuit will probably rule in favor of the state's villa. Ultimately appealed to the supreme court, and we'll see what happens. Well, it seems like a pretty serious measure Elizabeth which could possibly block action from Trump on the border wall for years if it's perhaps tied up in court. How do you see this playing out when I thinks his life is imitating us. I feel you to too key texts. One is the film vice which is tells the story of the concentration of in presidential hands. And and the other is the third season of house of cards in which president Frank Underwood. Does exactly this. He declares an emergency. He declares his unemployment program as you know, unemployment is an emergency. And he then raids the the the the budget which is intended to deal with natural disasters. So I think if you want to see how it's going to play out. I would go back and what season three again. And of course, it's challenged in court. But, you know, Donald Trump will never be a victim of the metoo movement is Frank Underwood was, you know. This is Kevin Spacey. Aren't they want in the same? Yeah. But I yes, this will hold it up. But I think that that isn't, you know, given the nobody out she wants this wall, except for a very small base that that still support Trump. He can present himself as the man who you know, is building the wall, but is stopped by these evil Democrats who don't care about rapists and drug dealers was he the president is her O'Kelly trying so politically it may not do him that much harm. I mean, I didn't think he's based follows the detail too closely. And the interesting thing is, of course, until the first week of January. He the congress was in both houses were in the hands of the Republicans. If they wanted to fund the wall, they would have done so, but they didn't because they know it's an idiot acquai- state of money. However, it does allow him to play and grandstand. And you know, he watches his boys his homeboys on Fox News sometimes infecting real time. You can hear what happens on Fox News, particularly the morning show and within ninety seconds a phrase is then tweeted out from the president. And I I don't know whether Murdoch is actually writing his tweets forum. It's pretty funny. Nobody subbing them. Certainly. Well, Michael, yo you alluded to it a little bit time and again, President Trump's undercuts his own message. And what is by many accounts, a crisis only in his rhetoric? Why does he continue to sell that message? And and how far will that go? Well. Look, you know, a a year ago had a piece in the New York Times. He humble bragged pointing at the Trump reminds me of a lot of guys used to my dad won't do a country club. And these guys who are captains of industry titans of real estate get drunk on Sunday after playing eighteen holes. And they put the world to rights and say you want to know how to deal with immigration in this country, you build a goddamn wall from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico, and that's exactly how they sound. And that's how he thinks. And in fact, after you know on Friday after he got on the helicopter, flew down tomorrow law, go to play golf, and you know, I honestly think think he goes back to it. Because it's what he thinks. You know, he I don't think he ever says anything he doesn't actually believe, you know, we can get into a funny conversation about the difference between belief and thought there's not much thought that goes on in his head. There's a lot of gut instinct, and I think he just act he keeps going back to it. Not just because he's stroking his base in a cynical political maneuver politicians lie to their base to keep them. Give them red meat, keep them active. I just think he honestly, let's be I just think he's a racist any thinks that America is under threat from an invasion of swarm of Brown people. And this is the only way to stop them. He sells pretty hooked on the call and response of the crowd. You know, that's that's his drug an econ stopped doing that. And when I mean, the wall came up because his aide said when he was come paining, you know, don't forget about immigration, and he kind of stumbled on the idea of Walden played. So well that he then became a self reinforcing trope and didn't think he can let it go because it gets a big feedback. Exactly. I he can't let it go. And it will. I mean, if he makes it to twenty twenty and we'll come onto that. And the very end of the show it will. It will hurt him definitively. But you know, it's it's a crazy waste of time. And in fact, this it's an entirely different subject. Why the Republicans let him get away with guys like Ted Cruz? Marco Rubio who are of Hispanic background. The Republican party has spent twenty five years desperately trying to undo it. It's bad image amongst America's growing Latino voting population. And this puts them back a full generation without a doubt. I think we could stay here for a while. But I wanna make sure we do get time for all the topics on today's show. So we will turn our attention now to China which has for years been working to expand its economy and global reach with its belt and road initiative. But now China has announced it will take aim at forging better ties between its own cities with a new economic region, including eleven cities along the Pearl River, delta the so-called greater bay. AM area was announced earlier this week with Beijing hoping to create a new tech hotbed by also bringing Macau and Hong Kong closer to the mainland that will be key. But perhaps worrisome for some is. But what is Beijing's actual plan? Well, this this has been under some intense discussions since two thousand and six which gives you an idea of the complications of it essentially in a one of China's success stories is in creating clusters said, they did it with industrial manufacturing, very good at organizing supply chains, etc. Now, they have to move into advanced technologies in a major way so Shenzhen we which used to be a fishing village. You know, thirty years ago is now the kind of epicenter of of Chinese advanced technologies, and they're trying to build the same kind of cluster in this region, which is already a highly productive and deficient. It's the most modern region of China if you like because it has been. Built in the last thirty years, and it's got it's got ten percent of for. It's got five percent of China's population. It produces already ten percent of GDP. So I think the two objectives one is to in further integrate, troublesome, Hong Kong and less troublesome Macau into the Chinese system and take advantage of Babs higher levels of trust in Hong Kong's rule of law and Hong Kong systems. Low levels of trust being quite common dealing with Chinese Legal Affairs. But then to make it a highly networked region by dint of building infrastructure, which they shouldn't really be doing already highly indebted, but they need an economic stimulus. So that building more high speed connections between these cities between Hong Kong and Macau, and and to undertake on Silicon Valley, essentially, that's the, you know, this is the declaration of war in Silicon Valley that is that is a big part of this. And and if we look at Hong Kong's, specifically, Michael, of course, this could be tricky. I imagine for the chief executive carry lamb there. But she's also already welcomed the prominent position the city would have in these plans and has mentioned it could help a housing shortage among other things, and there's there's talk that people could then start commuting to the mainland. So what do you make of these sort of closer ties for Hong Kong? Will I have to say because I've not been to Hong Kong, I feel a little bit on the outside. Side of this. You know in reading up for this bit of the conversation. You know, I was thinking, well, which comes first the chicken or the Silicon Valley wasn't centrally planned, it it kind of grew organically between the twin hubs of Berkeley and Stanford and San Francisco as own is the mid point actually, and it grew organically, and it's got to the point now where nobody can afford to live there even people who are being recruited by Google can't really afford to live there. I it seems to me that from my one visit into China that China will the government will be better at building infrastructure for the people they expect to move there. I don't know in terms of Hong Kong. Whether this will create a city that rivals the bay area for this particular kind of industry high-tech because again, you know, height comes back to the chicken or the if you build the city, can you then then suddenly decide tech occur or does high tech occur? And because it occurs at such a rapid pace you have to build a city fast around it. I want to pick up actually on that point. And something you already mentioned Isabel in that people might trust the the system and government and and way of life in Hong Kong, and we've had problems in China with wall way and people being curious about or concerned, I should say about tech coming from China. So so is is that part of this? Do you think you bring bringing them into the full? It's it's part. Well, while they already the headquarters is in Shenzhen. So in a sense you to Michael's point, and advanced technology has already developed in that region and the. The the whole bunch of six smaller cities, which you you much less well-known, which you know, which will be part of this plan, but the but the robot while we in the United States is germane as is the row abode said t e if you recall last year because both of them depend on US components, and when the United States put as a T E on on the banned list because the sanctions-busting in Iran, congress did it it shut down within four months and had to be revived by a telephone call from Shizhong pinned to Donald Trump who lifted the ban. So they're extremely aware that they are vulnerable to interruptions, in supply of key components from the United States and the way things are going right now, you know, it's not beyond. It's not beyond possibility that this might happen again. So there is a an exiled t to become much more self reliant. So you have this rightly anomalous situation in which is very. Much kind of out in front in a number of technologies, like facial recognition software, for example, or big data because there are no impediments to the collection of data in China. And you know, so you can kind of get get pretty advanced on that stuff. But in terms of building hardware, they still need components and they're anxious not to be vulnerable to the to the political head wins. That may well blow for some time. So I think there are lots of things behind this. The other thing is is the internationalization of the rim in be the Chinese currency, which certainly the city of London was hoping to play a major role in. But I think this is likely to be focused on on Hong Kong now because Hong Kong has expertise in in in those areas. So they're looking at all the things they need to be an advanced exporting kind of you know, economy and saying this is where we're going to put it. Michael China has had a slowing economy, and is dealing with the fallout, of course, with the trade war with the United States. But I is ball's Audrey mentioned this has been in the works for a while. But in a sense, it maybe it comes in good timing for them in trying to, you know, be very forward thinking and get their economy going. Well, yes, I suppose this is the thing about the Chinese economy. It is slowing down and people will say six and a half percent. Could be four percent. You can't trust the Chinese. Government's data on the size of its economy and the pace of its growth. But it's it is, you know, this is the joy of the centrally planned to Konami you can just kind of push into an area and say this is what we are going to do. And. It's also seems to be the nature of Chinese society that people don't push back and they carry on. Although you know, it just carry on. And we'll do go where the money goes. I don't know. Have been pushing back, of course, in one of the one of the, you know, bits of gritted in the machine of this of this plan seems to me how you integrate Hong Kong further with with gong don't because what we've seen in Hong Kong is increasing alienating certainly amongst young people since the umbrella movement, one of the sweeteners would appear to be that people will find it easier to go and work on the mainland. There's a lot of resentment between Hong native Hong Kong people in mainland common. Enjoy Hongkong facilities might be they medical or or educational. So it would appear that workers from Hong Kong who work on the mainland that children will be able to enjoy those social services which currently they're not allowed to. So they'll be some leveling up of of kind of benefits to Hong Kong people. But that won't stop people. In Hong Kong, saying hang on one country. Two systems was meant to keep a war between us and the mainland. And this is. Just lowering the barriers, and we become just another small part of Guangdong province is something. We will definitely be keeping an eye on here. You are listening to majority house here with me, Daniel beach, Isabel Hilton and Michael Goldfarb coming up next. We dig into the latest political turmoil in Brazil. Tired of seeing the same view tedious tourists, Holmes? Well, the monocle travel guide series has stopped off in thirty plus cities and counting in order to dispense advice on traveling like a local. From the finest Baltimore typical tear with a contact. Welcome to sweat or take a dip comprehensive guides packed with tips essays and Tippett's forgetting the very best from your destination. One travel guide series is published with gestalt. We've recently added Athens and Helsinki to the library with Humber can Chicago coming soon the Monaco travel guide series cities of fun. Let's explore. Still with me is a bell Hilton editor of China dialogue end. Michael Goldfarb veteran journalist and broadcaster we head now to Brazil where president John you're Bolsonaro has fired. A high-profile cabinet minister just six weeks after taking office Gustavo that Bianco was secretary general and known to be a key adviser for Bolsonaro the reasons for his departure is a scandal involving campaign financing is well how damaging is this for Bolsonaro arrows, very young presidency. I think it will come as an enormous surprise. I that to his supporters or his opponents, but the risk is running in the reason why this firing was so messy was the degree to which he might might not have benefited himself firm, the scum because after all, you know, Bibiana was that was a key figure in in the party. He was he chedda the party. He was a key figure in the campaign. And and what he was doing was siphoning off money to code orange candidates for reasons I have yet to uncover the candidates who either didn't exist to want seriously running so kind of public money was going into a black hole. And it remains to be seen where it's going now for your does some follow and big newspaper in some pow broke this story a little while ago. And then the initial reaction was to defend him. And I it seems reading between the lines. The boasts Naro was slightly vulnerable to the threat that you know, that that. If he fired his man his mind would take him down because he knows where the money went this was slightly complicated. By the fact that that both are himself was in hospital recovering from his from his injury. And his his two sons have been kind of running this particular show known as extremely abrasive characters. So so so relations got pretty techy. And the end of it was that having defended him they the that that he has stepped down. But but Bolsonaro himself has been obliged to put out a video thanking him for his service and saying what a fellow he was so so what all this suggests that there's a great deal more to come out. And I'm we'll be reading my folio too. Sump Paulo, quite eagerly over the next few days the excitement factor when it comes to Bolsonaro himself seems to be a bit more muted. Now the scandal, of course, playing its part. But after a shaky beginning, I is is this some way in some ways. Not surprising. You know? It isn't surprising. And I think that he probably had to had to act if only because the man who was ahead of him in all the polling up to polling day when he wasn't allowed to send his cabinet Lou who the disavowal disil- is in jail still for corruption. So you have to at least give some sense of equality. You know, we believe in the rule of law. I don't know. I I think that. He's a he's an example of, you know, twenty-first-century politics created on a wave of emotion gend up by social media, and you know, kind of irresponsible traditional media. So then where are his roots where due to his feet actually touch the ground, and he seems to be tumbling along. And we'll see you know, it depends I suppose on on the system itself how long he survives in this position. But he was getting ready Isabel who reads folio to some Paulo on a regular basis. Clearly and in the original language. The original language. Of course, you re you re Chinese and you read Portuguese. I sorta I can read Portuguese because I read Spanish. There should go. See that's a humble brags. I report because I've read Spanish, of course, which was necessary. So well, but anyway, just to come back to the point. I mean, you you'll know better about what what this. There was a reform an actual financial reform tax reform that he was getting ready to enact. The pensions reform, and that that that's, you know, it's the same problem in Italy, as you know, people being able to retire at some wonderful age that I long since passed and I'm not retired yet because I can't afford to because I don't get that kind of pension. And and this is this is why he had to do it isn't it because he had he had to make a strong statement about he'll tolerate no corruption because he's about to reach into everybody. Piggy Bank and say you can't retire at such and such an age, and we're reducing the amount of pension. You're going to get to keep it was the key part of his platform to to us. And if you look at at social security spending in Brazil, it is pretty much off the charts. And it goes eight goes overwhelmingly to effectively to state employees and teaches so it does need to. I'm almost certainly needs to get cut back. And of course, it's deeply unpopular thing to do. So so yes, it was it was a tricky moment. Let us finally moved today back to the US where vets. Trinh Senator Bernie Sanders has officially announced his second US presidential bid the seventy seven year olds. Vermont Senator became a political star back in two thousand sixteen when he narrowly lost a Hillary Clinton for the democratic nomination. He declared to his supporters. It was time to complete the quote political revolution. He started with many candidates in the field could Sanders stand out as he did back in two thousand sixteen or will it further splinter the Democrats who will need a United front to unseat Trump. Good move for Sanders or good move bad move for the Democrats. The last time I was on a said this, and I'll say it again for the next eight months, the most important thing, the Democrats should be doing is devoting all their energy to removing the clear and present danger. That's in the White House. The democrat who leads that. And is an if they're successful at it will be the nominee for president all of these people coming out of the woodwork. Now, they do it primarily because they're encouraged by their media advisers to do it because they're going to get money to get media. The media loves it because it gives them a horse race every day on days when there's really no news happening in Washington because it's grid-locked. So that's one part of the argument. The second thing to say is that currently leading the field by the most recent polling, Joe Biden, former vice president and Bernie Sanders, Joe Biden will be passed seventy five in twenty twenty Bernie will be seventy nine and I'm I'm going to make a bold prediction that neither man will be the nominee of the democratic morning. It's I mean, they may do well at the in the early stages because of name recognition, but it's not going to happen. The thing that Bernie Sanders did and which makes him a really important figure in American politics last five years is that he in challenging Hillary Clinton from what we would call the left. He completely redefined what was politically possible in America. And you know, it is no surprise that. The most well known new politician, America Alexandria. Oh, Cossio Cortez is actually approaches. Shea of Bernie her she got elected in New York City, basically running on his platform all over the country, young younger candidates, and particularly younger women have been braced this idea of democratic socialism. That was Bernie the question is having defined the territory. This is a terrific phrase from political blogger for Esquire Charlie Pierce today. Days having defined the territory does he own the real estate? He does not. And I don't think he will get to the finish line. And because he's a tough old Brooklyn guy. He's even though he's from Vermont. Now, it tough old Brooklyn guy. He won't go gracefully. But I don't see him getting the votes in the end he will have to consolidate behind a more progressive person. And although a lot of feminists blame him for, you know, attacking Hillary Clinton. My guess is he will end up consolidating behind one of the more prominent women who are who have already declared, and who are competent, and who could do very well in twenty twenty one of those sort of more leftist policies that that sort of split the Democrats in two thousand sixteen what do you think will happen going forward to on that platform? And where will we see a young star emerged perhaps is about? Absolutely true that he changed the conversation. He changed what it was the missile to talk about he absolutely normalized things like more substantial substantial minimum wage. I mean, he has completely transformed it, but if you look at congress and on on the wave of if you like Bernie Sanders enthusiasm, you have this new wave of of of lots of women and younger people in congress. And there's a very stark contrast between in the house of in in the house between the new wave and the and the older established, you know, legacy politicians, and he's he is in this anomalous position. Because it's absolutely right. He'll be seventy seven Joe Biden is not of the left and and will be in his seventies. But if you look at the reaction, for example to cuss, you'll Curtis's green new deal. It was very much kind of patting her on the head and saying, yes, we love the enthusiasm from the older from the older older party. Members who still sort of control the machine. So I think this a lot to play for in this. And there's a, you know, who's going to define the Democratic Party is going to be acted out through this campaign is it's not just, you know, the people who've been in congress long time. But also, you know, the the establishment press in Washington, they have long since stopped reporting news, these sort of just pass judgment on this. And that and they still think that the only way to win the presidency is to win it from the center, and then you have a guy like Donald Trump who is so anomalous and crude, and, you know, not from the center, he's not from the right from the authoritarian potential dictator wing, politics everywhere. And you think no, no, no, no, no, the younger voters who don't vote a lot, but her enthused now do want these basic changes. It's the new deal. The Franklin Roosevelt new. Deal brought to fruition Medicare for all. They like that idea. A better more affordable way to get higher education Bernie came out with that. And I think that there is actually much more enthusiasm. If your filter is the main the beltway press, I don't think you'd get the sense of the enthusiasm that is out there for this kind of politics. Maybe hang onto the nomination and run with a female vice I don't think so only because in the end, I don't like identity politics. But I think he just reads too much as a hate to say this way Brooklyn Jew, even though he's been in Vermont for fifty years, and I don't think America is ready to to elect a guy who's going to be eighty a year after he takes office. I just don't see it. We'll have to leave it there. Both that does bring us to the end of today show Isabel Hilton and Michael Goldfarb fantastic analysis as ever today show produced by. Nando goes to protect. Oh. And our studio manager was Kenya. Scarlett, I'm Daniel beach. Thank you so much for listening and goodbye.

Hong Kong President Trump president United States Isabel Hilton America China congress Trump Trinh Senator Bernie Sanders Mexico Michael Goldfarb Michael Brazil Macau San Francisco Silicon Valley Washington federal government
Thursday 28 March

Monocle 24: Midori House

29:53 min | 2 years ago

Thursday 28 March

"You're listening to minority house. First broadcast on the twenty eighth of March two thousand nineteen monocle twenty four. Hello and welcome to Madari house coming to you live from studio one here in London. I'm Andrew Miller on today show in respect to day. Margaret Beckett's motion 'em confirmation Republic vote. The is two hundred sixty eight the news two hundred ninety five. Heavy what fresh hell is this part empty million in an apparently infinite series? My guests Michael Goldfarb, and Jonathan Fenby will be discussing Brexit and the day's other top stories including president Emmanuel Macron's ambitions for reforming France's civil service about which Francis civil services as enthused as might be expected. Russia admits it has sent soldiers to Venezuela but insists they won't be doing any actual soldier stuff and has a Russian poll obey cold Ukraine's election. That's coming up on the Dory. House on monocle twenty four right now. And welcome to Madari house. My guest today are the journalist and broad, customizable, Goldfarb and Jonathan Fenby chairman of China research and director of European political research at TES Lombard also author most recently of crucible on the making Val will opt to the second World War. Welcome both, and we will begin the risk of provoking screaming fits from listeners, guests and present her alike with Brexit. There was a time either as recently as lost monther as long as go as the dinosaurs. It's getting hard to tell when it was thought that as of right now, the UK would be a little over twenty four hours from leaving the European Union after yet another week even more bizarre than the previous week. This date has now been officially delayed to the twelfth of April or the twenty second of may or the liberty v of or timber. This follows last night's glorious fiasco in the house of Commons in which MP's were offered the chance to endorse eight different varieties of Brexit and chose none of them. And this followed the attempt. Resignation of Prime Minister Theresa may who may yet. Enter political mortalities the first leader ever to have tried to fall on their own sword. And mist Michael first of all is there really any point at this stage at the risk of preempting. The next few minutes of discussion of pretending that we understand at all what's now going on. No, we don't. Well. We know what will happen tomorrow sort of. They're there. Bold claim from. Well, no, there will be a vote tomorrow on the this famous. What is his cold M V, something or other meaning Vinnie will vote for withdrawal agree as opposed unmanning meaningful starting to do a lot of work. They're g anyway. So the speaker of the house berko it said, well, you know, you can't keep bringing this back because you're going to because you lose it wastes time, and there's a parliamentary precedent going back to sixteen four Jonathan Who Wasn't There. Then almost we'll we'll remind me if it wasn't six four hundred six three anyway. So what they've done is. They've completely rewritten emotion in which the how the house of Commons vote only on the withdrawal agreement not the political declaration, which is part of the overall package, and this is meant to in some ways substantially make it a different deal. She's still going to lose. Because what what's happened is. Her government is propped up by these ten members of parliament from the Democratic Unionist Party over the hardline part in the Northern Ireland. She's already bribed that party with a billion quid makes no difference. They are some of the most disloyal disreputable people. And I I met them back in the day when I used to cover Northern Ireland when there was still a conflict there. They're just awful people, and they will not vote for no matter what this gives cr- this gives courage to the those in the ER g the European research group Tory backbenchers not to vote for it. And of course, then they'll be labor who are trying to just completely bring down the government anyway and get a longer extension of article fifty have a you know election and enter the socialist fall Hala that Jeremy corbin's premiership will represent and we'll be talking about that every day on this program for the next ten years. So God knows they want. Bring down the government, but not in taking responsibility for a bad breaks themselves exact, which seems less and less viable opportunity. Jonathan to return briefly to what I think, we're calling M V three you you you have of course, I distinguished career as a newspaper editor you may will be there for familiar with the tactic of representing the same garbage several times over with the fourth paragraph swapped for the fifth and that this time you get past the editor. Are you buying on this occasion? Or or are are we to extend the metaphor further is at this point. The I forget how this was going to go. But at some point you're going to be end up throwing it teak, helping some house hackers. They scam it for the staircase. Well, I think as you say very dangerous to predict anything we're in such a chaotic situation, but I think the kind of if you might phrase it. So the antiterrorism may feeling is so enormous that this is going to dominates everything level rejection of her third time is most likely and the problem is that as it always has been throughout this whole process for the last month year, or so on is that this is all bound up with internal fighting in the conservative party, which now takes priority. It is a genuinely stu- sobering. Yet. Staggering thing to sit back every so often and contemplate literally all of this is happening because Boris Johnson monster. Prime minister. Yes, Patino, something it's been happening since nineteen ninety when Margaret, thanks. He's doing the lost three or four years though. That is basically what it comes to. I did have a similar thought, you know, because yesterday when Theresa May's announced after meeting with the nine hundred twenty two backbench committee of conservative parliamentarians that she would step aside. Once the deal was voted for pass my deal. I will resign. I mean. Immediately. The press came out with runners and writers and odds on who. And what and you know. And it's the same people who three years ago had the same odds on them. And you know, Michael g-o-v nice Boris Johnson. And Andrea let some couldn't command who's the another conservative party MP who wanted the job couldn't get the job. And they ended up landing it ended up landing on Theresa May's desk. And here we are three years of pain later, and it's the same bloody people yell at Michael is right in saying this goes back, a very very low way, at least to John Major forty years also. And I think this whole inability of the leadership to deal with the European question, and the internal rivalries within the conservative party have been one of the most destructive elements in British politics over that long period. We will move on because they will be doubtless poly because none of us have. Aclu on. So also because they will be your ample further opportunity to discuss this just before we do up until today, I've been asking Midori houseguests at the end of every such discussion, whether the UK would be in or out of the EU come twenty three hundred twenty ninth. Now, we do now know the answer to that question everybody who said no was right. The ones he said, yes, we will were wrong. I'm gonna start asking a slightly different question, which I'd like you both to ans- into new I Jonathan as briskly possibly can Brexit is it ever actually going to happen. Yes. I wish it will not. But I think it is. And you can see from the voting last night for the la- Ken Clarke motion on the customs union. It'll probably be a very very soft Brexit, which they say, maybe Bruno Brexit in only Markle, I'm inclined to agree with Jonathan. Yes. But I don't think it will happen. Even by may twenty second. I I think they're gonna. You have to find a way to keep Britain from having the election of EMMY peas and then extended for full year until they can figure out how to get can Clark's soft Brexit organized. That's that's all well worth staying alive for I think. The thing you can have the you can have the customs union, and then you can have another ever end them. This can go on for as long as I'm alive. Certainly. Let's look now at fronts the president of which Emmanuel Macron was elected on a promise of making substantial Multan ising reforms to various also fide elements of French politics and business so far at least he's thanks for. This has come principally in the form of legions of purple faced men in yellow vests, flinging, paving stones gendarmes, but Macron seems determined to continue next in his sights are Francis. Civil servants of Macron things should be perhaps one hundred and twenty thousand fewer and that the roughly four point three million who would be left should work rather harder for their tax payer funded salaries Jonathan first of all beating up on the civil services a I mean democratic can reelected politicians. Do this all the time it rarely goes over entirely badly Francis. Civil service. Really any more or less idle and inefficient than anybody else's? I would say broad. No. But for instance, that was a leaked survey in the guy who this week, which showed that three hundred thousand work less than thirty five hours a week of quite hill, author them considerably less. There are all kinds of perks on the side. And they'll say working thirty five hours a week. We are of course, they are in place. Desks or wherever. But for instance, at the culture ministry, they still have several weeks the a year in homage to Andrei mellow culture minister who died quite a few decades ago. It's fate Jonathan so. Reference. So yeah, there's a lot to do in cleaning up. But as Mike Hall may have bitten off another quite difficult reform to two Michael seven trades unions unsurprisingly coli for day of strikes on may the ninth. So if they can find anything in Paris, which is not already been smashed set fire to that's doubtless where they will be heading is Macron, I mean know, if that's the most predictable outcome that you could possibly imagine to anything French president Cy Young under foam civil service. They will will be massive demonstrations. So if we figured that out on show Macron was figured that out is is he picking this fight on purpose. My guess is he probably is. And may as may along with October tend to be the annual the months of lemon if the manifestations the strikes 'cause may get a May Day holiday anyway. It's very pleasant. Very pleasant. I don't know. I really don't during the civil service is it is I think from country to country people have the same view in times when all forms of employment are incredibly unstable people look at the civil servants and say, you know, you've got a pretty good. You're not you're not going to get fired. And it might be the time to try me. Other other people tried and other thing that is of interest. Is that for all the problems we've been reading about Gijon and trashing Paris as a spectator sport every Saturday. The French economy is doing actually surprisingly, well, it's grown at a larger clip. And there was one point six percent was in today's financial times. There was an article about about this taking on the civil service and one point six percent when it wasn't expected to grow that much this year. Inflation is low and tax receipts are up. I mean, if you're not going to if going to give it a go now when would you give it a go? Yeah. And also, I think Matt Cole who was elected. I mean, I fully election campaign. There was undoubtedly without being naive story about it. I think quite a broad feeling of it is time for reform in France. And he pushed through this with the railways they SNCF which is a civil service job, basically in many ways. And clearly now he wants to keep up the momentum. And the people around him think recalled that as being extremely important. They've got to keep up the five-year momentum during his first in order to lead onto a second. When usually say, the real dividends will show just to follow that up the Jonathan and given what Michael was saying about how there is something that does now seem I think quite privileged about a cell service career that it's, you know, it's it's it's reliable employees. Pays tolerably? Well as we've been learning quite quite reasonable conditions. Is it possible that Macron's making just a basic political calculation here just thinking, this is probably a good way to at least get some of the angry people in hives vests back on board because it's not likely that they are going to be terribly upset by this is it when it depends which civil servants who attack whether you're attacking the low paid so servants or the the the the the fat cats who have got excessive holiday seasons on if it's the second. Yes. The answer is yes to, you know, targeting public anger than, but what he's also got to deal with is this respect for the state letter in France, which is very important, and which is represented by the civil service, and you've had on French television over recent months, endless reports from the provinces about schools local offices, health centers, et cetera et cetera. All these elements of the state. Eight being closed down that arouses quite a lot of anger among executives of the people behind the June. Michael, do we perceive any indications at all that the French are warming to Macron in the slightest because the enthusiasm for him has it's always been slightly conditional mean lest we forget that he won an election because he was up against a, you know, a thoroughly obnoxious candidate in in in the second round marine Le Pen from the front Nacionale. He's he's approval ratings have not quite plummeted to the abysmal single digits of Francois relaunched. But is is the any sign at all that he's he's winning France over to, you know, I don't know. I I have a feeling these last few weeks. There's your own thing happened still going on. And I think they were everybody was caught off guard by the fierceness of the demonstrations. And what's happened? I think is that as they've continued including there's two kinds of Gijon the guys who come out to destroy shops in. And Paris and worse. Burn out the the guys who sell newspapers and Chiasso corner. That to you can do that. And then they're, you know, the people who are genuinely upset about s increase in fuel duty because it makes making a living impossible. He goes off on this round, the the country listening tour, he does what did you Jonathan was eight hours did eight hours on French radio? I think with leading intellectuals hundred of them, and he talked them to death. I mean, this is the sort of thing Tony Blair used to do with the press because they should go to Blair's press conferences, and after forty five minutes, he would say got any more questions guys and somebody would raise their hand and after an hour and a half anybody else, and he would have talked all the Fleet Street to nothingness. Yeah. And I I think Macron is doing that. And and probably will regain some popularity of the back of that. Okay. We're going to take a short break. Now. You're listening to Midori house with me under moola with Michael Goldfarb and Jonathan Fenby coming up next Russia. Sends military personnel. And a quick moment to a South American country whose leadership is embodied by the United States could possibly go wrong. Download the free monocle twenty four app today to tune in wherever in the world you happen to be whether you're catching up on the news on your daily commute enjoying a little cultural nourishment during your morning run or seeking some recipe inspiration around the kitchen table, the monocle twenty four allows you to tune in live or download your favorite shows to enjoy later. Get started by downloading the monocle twenty four up today. Monocle twenty four keeping an eye donaire on the world. You'll back with Madari house with me Andrew Melissa with me. I'll Jonathan Fenby an Michael Goldfarb in recent years. Russia has often favored a policy of denial. When asked if it has any idea who all these heavily-armed blokes called surgery and Boris are who've turned up in a country of Russia. So it's at least that refreshing that Moscow has admitted several dozen alleged Russian military personnel seen disembarking from Russian military aircraft in Caracas early. This week are in fact, Russian military Russia has hastened to stress however that this deployment is quote, not linked to the possibility of any military operations on quote. So Jonathan is linked to the possibility of any military operations, not military operations. I think it's military presence. And you may see there's a fine line between those I think Putin is willing to take an opportunity to make trouble, basically, which is something he likes doing very much. Indeed. And how. Jump on the Trump re administration will react to that is then the question, but I didn't think its military action. I didn't think we're in the which you alluded to earlier on the Cuban missile crisis. Why? On the subject of Trump and Russia, Michael Donald Trump has suggested that Russia should get out of Venezuela to its Russia has just in the last few minutes responded by accusing Trump of quote borsch on a global scale on quote. I don't know if that's a coded instruction or whether that whether that's just what they mean. I'm glad that flood. Amir fled to me Rovic is coming along to the never Trump way of speaking. You know, who knows what this show what that shadow players about. I mean, the the clear sense in this is a continuation of American policy towards what was I the Shevess regime is now the Madurai regime is best if they go. There's no easy way to do it. When there are these moments as there have been over the last fifteen years, I was I was in Venezuela at the end of one decade ago where the people funded look we can't take this anymore. You know, this is a potentially an extremely rich country with the largest proven oil reserves in the world is we keep saying everytime. We talk about it. They want to take advantage of current unrest. In fact, I was just checking I follow some people, but Twitter who are in Venezuela and having these rolling blackouts again in the major cities right now as we speak it state. Time there. So it doesn't make a difference except that it's hot and you can't put on air conditioning. There's no power. And there's this sense that the state has completely disintegrated except for the ability to use force against the people. I, you know at but the US has hamstrung because the people who most would want to be rid of majora don't want the US to invade. They don't want any violence. They want it to happen through the people and how you aid and and and make that happen. I don't know. And actually the presence of one hundred Russian military advisers, how many is the US leaving in Syria at the moment, it's been causing the same kind of headlines. I don't know. Why we right? I don't know why my colleagues our colleagues who's who cover these things full-time make such a big deal over one hundred people here forty people there. You know, what it is? It goes back to Vietnam war when America had one hundred advisers in Vietnam and then one day they had. Ten thousand advisors before you know, you had the Vietnam war. You know, one hundred advisers. Four hundred advisers in it live in in eastern, Syria. You know, these are not things I think that we have to get upset about this. This is true as you were saying earlier Jonathan it's a it's a presence. It's it's a flag flying expedition. I mean, that's basically as many people as you need to Romney flag up Opole. But. What what does happen if the hundred becomes two hundred becomes three hundred four hundred what if it's a thousand Russians in Venezuela at what point does it start to look like Russia might be quite serious about this? I think if you get a build up of the kind you're talking about and it steady incremental build up, and we get into the thousands than Trump Joan Boten Pompeo. And so we'll have to take this much more serious by then the jigs up. It was the may be too late that point an OC you've got in this the the Chinese presence sagoes. China has been a big big supporter was big support of the Shevess regime. An is still really invested in backing Maduro and the Venezuelan he's Venezuelan governor regime there and indeed has come out in support of the Russian action today on the grounds typically Chinese that Venezuela's a sovereign nation, which can invite anybody wants. On. That's it. Forget about who they are. Now. I think China an America one of the time when they're in deep into the trade talks that they wanna fight over Venezuela. But if escalated you could see that Michael it's a Christian feel like I've asked about Venezuela even more than I asked about Brexit. But did do you perceive any sense of a looming end game here? Do we know how this is going to shake out Ken Maduro just carry on doing this forever? You especially running up against, you know, really fundamental stuff like being unable to supply power to the people of his capital city. The capital city is you also correctly pointed out of what should be an extremely rich and prosperous country. I I have this feeling that. You know, and essentially, you pose the question terms of Brexit. We're just in this moment across the globe. Nobody wants to fight. Nobody wants to fight and nobody wants to break logjams. Nobody wants to do diplomacy, and we're kind of old frozen in a moment of extrordinary tension and anxiety in the case of Venezuela. I have no doubt that the kind of popular will that kept showbiz secure no longer exists for the chevelle Chevy STA regime. Madero isn't as popular that said until the army this is Latin America until the army comes out of its barracks against him. He is secure it doesn't hundred Russian advisors. Nothing the leading generals and colonels that's all he needs. And at the moment. That's what he's got. And you know, the president Guido who today while we're talking. There was some ruling that he can't hold public office for four years while he's the elected president of the country. He can hold office. If the if the army won't come out in support of Guido, then Medeiros secure it's that simple on just finally and quickly on this subject. Jonathan on the subject of the alternative, president Guido fungoides who is who is recognized as such by most of Latin America Europe, and the Americas, etc. He's calling full more protests. Is that is that gonna do any good? Or is that basically the only Shelton is locker at the most anything he can do given us Michael said that the forces still with Modesto the the the enforce. He has to do that he has to keep up pressure. And he has the hope that the the power blackouts all the the other privations, which are there in Venezuela will sap away support from door bit by bit. And the all may we'll wake up one day and say, hey, this guy's a lose. We'd better get with the winner. Okay. We'll finally tonight and continuing with the subject of possible Russian interference in the domestic affairs of other nations. A win in this Sunday's presidential election. Ukraine has been tipped by. A Russian polar bear named Bouillon. Currently resident of a zoo in KRAsnoyarsk invited to choose between three morsels of food attached to the three front runners of Ukraine's presidency or shoot specify pictures of the three front runners for Ukraine's presidency. Bouillon picked the incumbent Petru Pora Shinko. I I'm very fond of this Michael because this is a proper and finally story, and I it's genre. I'm a big fan all possible that this is a coming Soilbes stunt at some level or another. I'm frankly bit lost looking at Ukraine is to which of the candidates Russia would be schilling four probably the standup comic. Don't you? If you. Which stand up comics professional professional staff. Russia's certainly doesn't want Yulia Timoshenko who has a real Ukrainian nationalist that won't petro Pora shaneco because they think he's in the bucket of the US. No, I think they want the they want the guy who can crack jokes Wlodimierz Alinsky, Vladimir is Alinsky da. You know? Wasn't there? A World Cup to push. Yes. That's a long long history of this. If you want I can retail some of the top bits of it, please, please. Because the the bear has will Cup foam. But it cold cold the World Cup. Final wrong. Yeah. The the bear was among unhappy band who thought Croatia would pull off the upset now pool. The German Altemus predicted the world covered come right in twenty ten. It went full Spain loosen research controversial choice in fan tells me that Chinese monkey forecast Trump's win. But a Scottish goat who was put up to this. Got it wrong. Hillary Clinton would win. However, the goat did predict a victory for the the leave vote in the Brexit referendum. So in animals have got about as good record as a lot of commentators. We should get one on the show. The American magazine at some point Michael being spiny that used to run a stock picking column called beat the chimp. The idea was that actual stockbrokers would go up against an actual monkey picking stocks out of a hat. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I if you sit among key at tight rights, I it will come up with war and peace in the end you to wait two thousand years. Yes. To return to to to slightly more serious analysis of what's going to happen on Sunday because it is a big deal and Jolson shooed Wlodimierz Alinsky who is an actual comedian man that enough be elected president of Ukraine, how big a wildcard is that as far as I know in Michael produce follow this closely that I we don't know how he would fall flop or whatever the right word is or how far Putin would use it as an occasion to go back to where we were talking about earlier minutes Walea to send in the men in the little men in green uniforms, who who are of course, not Russian we going around. If you meet a guy named Sergei. No, definitely very very definitely not Russia that that that moment of clarity. Does bring us to the end off today show, Michael Goldfarb and Jonathan Fenby. Thanks for joining us up. Dory. House. The show was produced by Daniel Bates for such Fernando Augusta per second Rory. Good Drake, tedium manager, David Stevens music, next one thousand nine hundred. It's the urban is more on the day's main stories on the daily at twenty two hundred Madari house returns at the same time tomorrow eighteen hundred London obvio- host for that as well. I'm Andrew Mullah. Thank you for listening.

Jonathan Ukraine Michael Venezuela Emmanuel Macron Jonathan Fenby president Michael Goldfarb Brexit Theresa May United States Boris Johnson Madari house France Margaret Beckett UK European Union Prime minister Gijon
Edition 1903

Monocle 24: Midori House

29:52 min | 2 years ago

Edition 1903

"You're listening to Midori house. First broadcast on the twenty second of April two thousand nineteen monocle twenty four. Hello and welcome to Madari house coming to you live from studio while I'm here in London. I'm Andrew Mullah on today's show a state of emergency and a number of unanswered questions in Sri Lanka following yesterday's bombings. My guest Carol Walker, and Michael Goldfarb will be discussing this and the day's other top stories, including Ukraine's election of a comedian a professional one this time to its presidency Brexit, but we'll try to keep it short. And where is the balance between the right of protesters to protest and the right of everyone else to get where they're going. That's all to come on Dory. House on monocle twenty four. And welcome to Madari house. My guest today are the journalists Carol Walker and Michael Goldfarb? Welcome both, and we will start in Sri Lanka where at least two hundred ninety people are now confirmed dead and more than five hundred injured in yesterday's Easter Sunday suicide bombings of several churches and hotels in Colombo Negombo and Batticaloa another blast occurred today in Colombo as police attempted to disarm explosives in a van used by the attackers. No injuries have been reported. Another device has been diffused near Colombo airport. As we go to air. No claim of responsibility has been made those relentless government. Have blamed a hitherto little heralded jihadi outfit called national towel. He Jamaa twenty four people have been arrested though, details on who they are. Or why they were lifted scant? Michael first of all on that lack of a claim so far more than twenty four hours off to the bombings is that strange in the general context of large-scale terrorist attacks. Yes, and no, yes. Or no dur- during its heyday when there were lots ISIS had many wannabes and imitators around the world every time. There was an outrage in sub Saharan Africa, whatever somebody would say, we are ISIS, but they weren't necessarily. They were just self generated and one of the unknowns at this point, it is only about thirty six hours since the atrocity is how could he small local group this joy jemaat, which may talk. He'd Jamaa means that the heat is one God there is one God jamarcus parties was the party of one. God. On the radar, but not considered to be that big a threat carries out half a dozen massive bombings. So presumably they had outside help. And it's a question of whether there will be a claim now, I mean, it could be that that Botha Qaeda, and ISIS have reached a point there in their of Lucien where they don't feel the need to have media claims of responsibility. If indeed, you know, this is the the government says, this is who did it it looks like it, but they're still needs to bit more proof, frankly, Carol on that subject of them being on the writer, the worse real Anka's government has admitted that they were warnings about an attack a couple of weeks ago, though, the warnings did not worn anything on this scale. But no action was taken. Which is a well, you give them you have to give them some credit for actually admitting as much, but is this the kind of thing that once people get past the shock and the grief of the attack that they then start to focus some of that anger on the government, which is supposed to among many other things. Protect them from such things. Well, I'm just you have to consider the Pauling scale of these tanks. Six coordinated attacks on worshippers on one of the greatest Christian festivals of Easter mourners mown down tourists holiday makers in hotels there to enjoy themselves. I've been hearing on the way in an account of one man who's lost his wife and children. They were from the UK. And I think when you look at the scale of the bloodshed two hundred ninety people dead clearly at the moment, the country is still in a state of shock, and as you mentioned a state of emergency has been declared. But we do seem to be hearing more and more about the warnings. That were given a government minister has said that these were pulsed onto the police now what we don't know is precisely what the warnings were how specific they were. But clearly there were no there was no sense in which anyone was. Warned of this possible imminent attack. And there's as far as we're aware. No precautions were taken. So yes, certainly if indeed it emerges. There was intelligence that could have saved even some of the loss of life. Then clearly, I think they will be anger this. And it's interesting that the government is already suggesting that there may have to be an inquiry to find out exactly what was known in advance since since the end of the tunnel tiger insurgency in that civil war. Sri Lanka's fallen off. The blogosphere news front pages wasn't even the front pages at that point. But I mean, it's phone out of our consciousness, and I think one of the things that interests me is this idea that a minister in the government, not the leader of the government. Not the prime minister came out and said, well, we had a warning. And you begin to wonder well what what's the politics here are are there rival? Actions somebody trying to make somebody look bad. But the most interesting thing in these first twenty four hours, where facts are thin on the ground to me is that the one thing the government was able to do was to shut down Facebook shut down, Twitter and shut down all social media immediately. Because they said we we were concerned about rumors and untruths flying around. So they put this Sri Lanka is a country where people communicate on social media. And so immediately this happened. You couldn't get anything on Facebook. You couldn't hear rumors? Well, I mean, this could be good say rumors flying around. It was the Muslims who did it. And so suddenly, you have riots against passing Muslims in the street, or perhaps the government had something. It didn't want out there straight away, Carol deterrent to know, what to make of that last thing in particular, the restrictions on social media, which the Sri Lankan government crackdown on very quickly. Because it is the case that following. Any event especially in event like this an enormous amount of garbage start circulating extraordinarily quickly. And it's not even after a an especial atrocity like this in in the wake of the fire not Dom cathedral. For example, any number of DOT conspiracy theories took flight within minutes is this a response Wade likely to see more of from governments in future needs there. In fact, an argument in favor of it. Well, I think there is a very delicate line to be drawn hair. I think that instinctively there is a danger and trying to simply close off debate as soon as an atrocity of this scale has happened. Yes, you're right. There are all sorts of extraordinary and potentially dangerous conspiracy theorists who liked to get out there and can in in circumstances. Like this could potentially and flame tensions, but these media sites do have. Moderators? They are supposed to take down any kinds of posts which could be potentially that will flames don't the the alternative is going to close down all discussion of it. Are you going to stop newspapers putting out what they know about what warnings may have been given. I think that to suddenly start saying well as soon as something like this happens again, you stop all social media discussion of it smack somewhat of a rather repressive regime, and would be the sort of response that perhaps those perpetrating these kind of tax would like to invoke, I think in a free society. You cannot simply close down discussion of what may or may not have happened who may or who may not have been responsible. It is a fine line to be drawn. But my own view is that if you suddenly start saying, right? We're gonna shut down all discussion of this. That's a pretty dangerous route to go down. Well, let's move on. From that. They will be more on this story on tonight's daily at twenty two hundred show. We'll be looking at it in greater detail the rest of this week. But let's look now at Ukraine, it might reasonably be argued that the precedence of unqualified showbiz Yahoos beginning their career in politics with the highest offices of states, notably in the United States and Italy, not encouraging these warnings from the present have not disarray, the people of Ukraine who have elected and boy, a thumping majority. A new president who prepared for the job by pretending to be president in popular television program for load. Amir's Alinsky star of servant of the people. It was elected elected rather actual servant of the people with fully seventy three percent of the vote despite his lack of experience and indeed policies, Michael what could possibly go wrong. Well, it's going to, you know, this is like sugar these are like sugar house, you know, it, and he he will come into office. He's got you. He would say a mandate. He doesn't even have a political party. He only named his political party today when he woke up and said, oh, we'll call it by the name of my television show. Well, of course, Donald Trump should change the name of the Republicans to the apprentice. So he will do he will do eventually look. Well, we can make generalizations. I there's no doubt that in most of the democratic world much of the democratic west will say career politicians have had decades to to just wallow and ruin and sup at the trough of an of the public purse, and there's widespread discussed with them, and anyone who can come from out of the pack and have something new about him will or her we we await the first woman to do this will get purchase in because the democratic policies are just so aggravated, and you know, and Emmanuel Macron has to be considered part of this as well. I mean, he was nothing. It was thirty eight thirty nine years old. And then all of a sudden he burst through because he's young and fresh, and what are his policies? Oh, we're not sure. But he's a nice looking guy, and oh, we don't want to have marine lapenne is our president. Therefore, we vote Macron in Ukraine specifically, nobody was was happy was happy about Petra Porsche ankle. And he gets around when I when I I was spent much of less temper their and report making a program, not not about politics. But if it other stuff, you know, but I did talk politics while I was there, you Yulia Timoshenko or it's petro portion Gauguin were bored with this. They're both corrupt and here comes this guy. And he's fresh and he's gonna he's funny. And before you know, it you can get people behind you that would board. I think is important Carol. Why has it happened? And I think it explains a great deal that people especially in those wealthy orderly secure western policies. Have started demanding that on top of everything else. That politics entertain them. What is an extraordinary development e even in his? Very unprecedented political times in which we live. I think this is the first time we've had someone who is an ordinary citizen who is acting in the pot of someone who is propelled to the presidency of his country, despite a total lack of politics at the same time that is happening to him in real life. And I think he is a Petrie. Puerta shaneco, the ultimate embodiment of this anti political mood, which has grit not just Ukraine, but many other countries where people feel that there is this political leat, which is out of touch with their own concerns, which is failing to address the bread and butter issues, which they are confronting on a daily basis, and which is fundamentally corrupt one of the few messages that we got during this campaign was that Petra pushing co said that he. Would tackle the corruption in his country. Take on the oligarchs interesting given that he appears on TV station that is it self backed by an oligarch, but let's see how he goes one of President Trump's very potent messages walls that he was going to drain the swamp in Washington and people won't to hear those sorts of messages. Now, ultimately, he will be judged on whether in power he does make any difference whether he can tackle some of those fundamental points. And I think that will depend on who he manages to get on board. Does he actually have the guts in the power to try and drive the through, but he has been elected with over seventy percent of the vote. And that means he has got a big mandate for change. What's interesting in specific though about Ukraine as opposed to the other countries mentioned is this was not necessarily an Ethno nationalist vote. No. He won big everywhere except in one place except in the in the most antisemitic part of the country. I mean, we haven't mentioned the winners. Alinsky is is Jewish comedian. I mean, who's in America, it'd be at the borscht belt and the one place the one 'oblast region of the country that did not vote for him overwhelmingly was level blast witches where my my maternal. My paternal grandmother comes from and which is dear to my heart and leave is a lovely city. It is a beautiful wonderful a great place to visit and once traveled dollar goes much further in Levin than virtually any place in Europe. They can send me a check for that. I should've said Zalewski when I was talking about. I think it was previous. Cool is the is the new man on the block? Overturn this legacy from Porsche who himself also promised to tackle corruption and failed to deliver Zilenski. Go. At at the time of the my done the my Don rebellion exits five years ago. Now, you know, this was about the Ukrainian nationalism standing up against Russia at neighboring these and then Russia invaded. Now, you've got this new guys Alinsky. What is he going to do? I mean, a third of his country is occupied by Russian troops, the industrial heartland of the country, in fact, although it's in the pictures, you'd say it's in ruins he hasn't we have. We don't know what he's going to say what he has said he wants to have a new peace process and the Russians have already welcomed that will do the lessons are holding twenty four Ukrainian sailors for months now that they took off the, you know, coming out of the under the Black Sea, and they've annexed Crimea. And they are backing the troops in the east of the cut rebels in the east of the country so cow. He's gonna find a way through that without appeasing the Russians. Is a very big challenge. They will. Of course, be more on that story on our programs throughout the week. We are going to take a short break. Now. You're listening to Madari house with me Andrew Malulu with Michael Goldfarb and Carol Walker coming up next. There's no getting around at Brexit is still a thing. 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Subscriptions come with a free limited edition, monocle tote back with four bespoke subscription packages to choose from you decide what suits you and Joe lives down best. What are you waiting for? Visit monocle dot com. And subscribe today. You'll back with Madari house with me under Melissa with me, Michael Goldfarb and Carol Walker tomorrow British parliamentarians will return from their holidays holidays, which many weary voters might argue have not been nearly long enough. It has been Mercifully quiet on the Brexit front for a few weeks. Now since the most recent punting of a departure date for which the UK remains more or less entirely unprepared. As we approach the third anniversary of the vote to leave. The current departure date the on form don't bit too heavily on it is October thirty first more imminently. We have the glorious prospect of European elections next month which promised to be a goat. Rodeo of Rick quality, Carol. I it was struck me. When I realized we were talking about Brexit that it feels like something everyone's kind of lost interest in like, it was a huge dance craze. That was all the rage a few summers back and now everyone's like, oh, yeah. That was a remember that. Yeah. That was a, but we still have to talk about it. Don't. Well. Absolutely. I didn't have all. Had a brief Brexit. Breda Easter to resume got that extension out of the EU parliament, promptly packed up and went on holiday. I think much too many people's relief. But MP's back and many of the problems remain exactly as they were. Yes, there is this groundhog day sense of it about it all there is no way through the impasse that appears to have suddenly materialized during the past we can haul full so and if anything opinions on all sides are even more entrenched, and if anything the anger and frustration at Theresa May is growing and has grown when MP's return tomorrow. There will be moves to try to get changes to the leadership contest. So that she could be challenged within her own party. We know that chairman of the grassroots of the conservative party. On trying to call for a special convention so that they can try and change the rules. So that it will be easier to ouster from the leadership of her party. It's by no means clear, whether any of these maneuvers are actually going to work, but I think it is a sign of the huge frustration within her own party. Markle one exciting development on this front as we approach these a you elections, which are going to be an extraordinary circus, and I do recommend non-british listeners to to pay attention over the next few weeks, if they connoisseurs of political fast is the unveiling of the Brexit party the latest vehicle of Nigel Farraj, but in early polling for the EU elections. They are a decent stretch ahead of the field. And of course, we do have to remind ourselves at one of the reasons we got here was that the UK keep of which Najah frogs was leader at the time won the EU elections in two thousand fourteen could he do it again? It's possible. Because what one of the the the moments? It seemed interesting about two months ago, and you know, people who follow this from abroad should remember that British pundits. Even the best of them are party, pre, you know, eight his so infected the minds of the average not the average of of all British citizens, including me, they people lose all perspective. It was a moment though. This is going to be a big realignment of British politics and a dozen parliamentarians backbenchers some of whom had served on frontbench left and started a new party called Chook, which can change you. K change, you k and which makes it confusing because the first person to break away the most prominent one is a guy named Chuka a Muna who is actually not going to be leader. No, he's he's resisting taking on the crown. So they've had months absolute months to organize themselves in anticipation of these European elections because they wouldn't have done it. If they didn't think there was a very good chance of slowing the whole process down getting a further extension from the EU was cleared. There were plenty of signals coming out of Brussels. You can have more time. We we don't want a crash out take more time, but you have to hold these elections. So here you have Nigel Farraj over here. He's got one message me, I'm your guy. I and people are going to flock to him and vote for his party. Meanwhile, these dozen or so people are fighting with the green part, and they're fighting with the Liberal Democrats. And no one has figured out how to unify into a remain party, and that is an element in. How we got here. Because yes, the conservative party is overwhelmingly Brexit. The labour front bench is intellectually Brexit and trying to play both sides against the middle. And you have the sixteen million people who voted to remain who would love to vote in these European elections. For pro remain pro European members of the European parliament. And that vote is going to dissipate and people are so disgusted that even the most simple and basic issue these three or four remained parties cannot come together that yes to answer your question that was a long way round Nigel Farraj. It's going to do very well herself said in fact, still clinging to this idea that somehow the u k could avoid fighting these European Union elections if she can get her with rule hill. He's aiming that she's gonna come back and spearhead these talks with the opposition, which appear to begin absolutely no at some stage. She's going to have to admit she's gonna fight it. But many in her own party are already telling her that are simply not going to go out and campaign. Just before we move off this topic. I'm regenerating my stock end of Brexit item question, and I've been doing this frequently as the data shifted. I just want to a one or two word answer from each of you, Michael you first November first we still in we actually lift. Wolfgang Muench our of the financial times a man who puts the blue in blue Monday today wrote in you know, they've had it October thirty first that's it. And he doesn't expect. I don't expect that British politicians will have reached any conclusion. And Consequently, I I'm now thinking that. Yes. On November first we will not report of the European Union. Carol. I think it's brave to think that we will be ISIS. I have this feeling this costly feeling that November the first we could be back here talking about groundhog day once again into yet another extension to Brexit. I suspect you might be right. But finally, tonight's London has in recent days being beset by protests associated with the extinction rebellion movement and environmental activists outfit, though, the protests have been more or less. Good humid, and peaceful as has in general, the police response more than one thousand people have been arrested a few dozen of which have now been charged mostly for getting in the way of traffic, and or police while the protests have also it should be hoped attracted an amount of publicity to the 'cause they have also revived the debate about the extent to which protesters are entitled to disrupt people trying to live lives and get stuff done without being chanted or juggled at an Carol the strategy. They have admitted is trying to get as many people arrested as they possibly can. And all on that. At school. They are succeeding admirably. Does that strategy make any sense? Well, what's interesting is that this has been a very well organized protest. They did manage to occupy two of the main arteries three London, Waterloo bridge and Oxford circus for the best part of a week. Yes. To manage to do it in a good natured way, having yoga classes dancing with some of the policemen to the disgust of some of the right wing press. And they arrange themselves by having what they call arrestable 's. So that there are people there who are prepared to go off and be arrested as you say that number has now reached more than a thousand. So that when the police approach and say, right you need to move. You're going to be arrested people have an option that they can get out of the way if they don't want to get themselves into trouble with the police and others who are prepared to stick. It out literally stick it out many of them super glowing themselves to bridges and so on and they have through the extraordinary tactics. Got themselves a good deal of coverage. They've got themselves pictures or labor most of the front pages. And I've been hearing plenty of discussions about their aims of a radical change to the approach to the environment really big cuts to greenhouse gases effectively down to zero by twenty twenty five. So they have certainly sees the headlines, and as I understand it. There's now a debate going on within the movement about where they go to next Michael returns being increasingly textually pointed out by municipal authorities here in London is is consuming the time and energy of up to nine thousand police officers. We could probably be finding other things to do with their days. Is there a point not just with this with with any protest, which it does start to become somewhat self indulgent? Yeah. Yes. And and this particular issue, I mean surf day I've been around since Earth Day was first celebrated I was around. I was a teenager when they had the first human being in San Francisco. I wasn't there. But I saw the pictures and walking through parliament square last week. It was a bit of a throwback except people. Now have died there blue and purple instead of you know, wearing it the way they didn't nine hundred sixty seven, but you know, to what end this issue, people know, the climate is changing people know there've been may been meeting after meeting after meeting over decades to try and get what is essentially a Transglobal out. You know, no boundary can stop what's happening. And honestly for all of the energy. It would be join us if they targeted a bit better. Why why block Lund? Okay. So it's the week before Easter it's empty anyway. Nothing but tourists, well, that's gross. Generalization? I was here. But you know. Look what what good does it. Do. There are places. There is a lot more discussion on the environment over the last few. Sometime since the since the Perez courts since Trump took America out of the Paris accords. Carol lynn. Now. Talk about it's always been on the political agenda. But here's the point. How is it to be on the political agenda and the whole point of the Paris conference and everything else is that it has to be a global thing? And the point that it was I was getting to was, you know, why this why not just go to an office where climate denial climate change denial is funded from and superglue yourself there and have one hundred thousand people blocked the office pull the blue listening as you say that. And then when when the police come into arrest, they won't be as polite, and then you would have proper proper civil disobedience well on that film show that does bring us to the end of today show Carol Walker and Michael Goldfarb. Thank you for joining us at Midori house. It was produced by Tom whole research by finan. 'do Augusta Pacheco Julia Webster s Judea manage it was Cassie Galvan music next nine thousand nine hundred it's the culture show with Robert bound. There's more on the day's main stories on the daily at twenty two hundred Madari house returns at eighteen hundred London time tomorrow, I'm Andrew Mullah. Thanks for listening.

Michael Goldfarb Carol Ukraine Carol Walker European Union London Sri Lanka UK Madari house Donald Trump Brexit ISIS president Midori house conservative party Andrew Mullah Colombo Nigel Farraj
Edition 1913

Monocle 24: Midori House

29:17 min | 2 years ago

Edition 1913

"You're listening to Midori house. First broadcast on these six of may two thousand nine hundred nine on Monaco, twenty four. Welcome to Midori house coming to you live from studio. One here in London. I'm Judy foster and on today show nature in crisis. A UN report says a million animals and plants PC's face extinction as human activity threatens earth's natural life support systems. America says it will deploy an aircraft carrier and bomber task force to the Middle East after Washington accuses Iran of ramping up tensions in the area. My guess Samir shackle, and Michael Goldfarb will be discussing this Amodio as are the top stories including thirteen people have been killed and dozens of others injured after Taliban fighters launch an attack on the police station in northern Afghanistan. All that, plus these Sultan of Brunei does a u turn on enforcing laws making adultery and gay sex punishable with death by stoning that's all to come here on Midori house with me Juliet foster. I welcome to Midori house. My guest today are the journalist Samir shackle who writes for publications, including the guardian the new statesman and Deutsche Avella and the journalists Ambra caster, Michael Goldfarb say welcome both of you to the program. Now, a damning United Nations report says that increased human activity is threatening the existence of a million animal implant species, it goes onto our that nature is being destroyed at a rate ten to hundreds of times higher than the average over the last ten million years and that unless remedial action is taken humanity faces a future fresh water shortages and climate instability. Well, the report compiled over three years by a team of scientists and diplomats claims that agriculture and fishing are the primary cause of the crisis, Michael the extraordinary thing about this report is the tone because it is heavily strident. Very fatalistic something that we don't normally associate with you. And documents exactly it turns out that we are the media. You're we're that that with the media or did to get rid of the dinosaurs. We may well be doing to ourselves and to the planet. It's it's a abroad reported. And in fact, it's been trailed the idea of a million species of flora, and fauna disappearing is something that has been trailed already. I I really don't know how much. I mean, I guess the the purpose of the report is to sound an alarm, my problem with it is that the big organizations, the UN, and and various other. Climate groups that they negotiate various treaties. And so on have been sounding warnings for most of my belt live and while I'm convinced that younger people get it. We haven't passed that tipping point where the people in charge get it sufficiently to carrying on using the same verb get their act together. You know, this is a problem. But is it different this time around because it has joined the dull certainly not in a way that I Anthony media with because it's looks at the interrelationship between biodiversity climate and human wellbeing. The other fats is how it is very circular. Whereas newly reports have taught about environmental damage in terms of greenhouse gas emissions rising sea levels because of melting polarized caps and done the dangers to to to wildlife potable that sort of thing we'll. I mean, I think the problem is that the. The. The fact is that it's all connected, right? Fact is that the scale is enormous. The scale shows how borders mean really nothing. I mean, we're we're living in a time. Now where nationalism is reasserting itself in in geopolitics. And you realize wait a second. No, the and what it requires is a global political set of actions to begin it's not just a targets as the the Paris climate accords, which sort of are in place, but do they work? We don't know the US pulled out of them under Donald Trump. You know, the UN can put this out. But does the UN have the power to compel its membership to deal with this in and start to find practical solutions? No, the U N can can barely enforce a ceasefire in Syria. It certainly can't take a problem of this scale and say to China, you cannot do this in your development. After after centuries and centuries of impoverishment because of all the reasons we know colonialism, and so on now in the last fifty years, you have brought three hundred people who listening to understand this in the last fifty years three hundred million people in China, which is just a tiny tiny minority. But it's a minority of the population is essential. Have become middle class in the sense that I'm middle class or middle class and the population of America's through hundred million. So they didn't have brought twenty percent of their population, which is three hundred million people to a level of wealth where they want to consume as you and I want to. Because I I just do it as as a matter, of course. How are you going to legislate that take another example, I know Monaco is popular in Brazil, so Geijer Bolsonaro campaigned on enough of this not cutting down the Amazon forest. It is important for economic development. I'm going to take away these rules that for the last decade or fifteen years. We haven't been cutting down the forest at the rate react loan in that either because Donald Trump who who denies climate change when he he's cited as some as the climate change in Iran chief has as he's concerned, it's a myth that's been peddled by the Chinese to stunt American industry. And and how can you put me this is a very powerful weapon it which in an ideal world should work to push back against it. But I guess that there are those who say what it's not working it doesn't work. And and you know, but there's the flipside of it. And I think when we think about the problem, you know, you can you go back, right? There's a the guard. Sean's primary environmental correspondent columnist is a guy named George Mambi. He's got a huge following globally. My guess is some people listen to the program probably read him if not in the guardian they find his work somewhere else. Five ten years ago. He got up he decided Britain needed to be rewarded people who've been here. No. There aren't you know, they're the forests here don't really qualifies forests. You know, they aren't very big. And they're completely circumscribed this island used to be one enormous forest and over the period of civilised civilizing Britain trees were cut down famously to to build the Royal Navy in the middle of of of the second millennium. But, you know, agriculture cut down trees exactly what they're doing by the way in Brazil with the rainforest graze cattle, whatever. So he moved out to Wales which is a beautiful country, but is denuded of forest, and he bought a hilltop because he has he's got a bit of money, and he decided he would rewired he would plant saplings apparently his neighbors came to hate them. Because the only job out there is raising sheep. And is he wants he says. Rewired the island, and this will improve and take us back to where we should be to be in balance with nature. Now, if that's happening in such a local situation as Wales on the island of Britain modest sized island off the coast of Europe. Imagine the enormous arguments to be had with the communist party in Beijing. But then he's also that the report is also saying look it a lot of people's down to individual behavior. So for example, cutting down on our meat consumption simple. Follow three conomic if we eat less meat, then the actual meat farming doesn't have to be quite so intense. So, but therefore, you you take away the justification of the farming community to churn up all these forests and reclaim the land for grazing, etc. We've been through that. And in Indonesia, the halt been cold cutting down palms for Pomo. We're not gonna use palm oil to in food manufacturer to improve shelf life for two. Mall, Safai foods, you know. However, it's used food science is beyond me. But the other thing that and again, it comes back to the ins and outs and the ups and downs of this. When we look at the problem, if we ever get around to dealing with it, politically, I think people need to stop thinking of human beings as being separate observers of nature. We are of nature. We are. We are in many ways like a hive of bees or an anthill we have greater intellectual capacities. But if you stop for a second, our societies are simply expressions of the physical capacity, we have of thinking, and you know, until people get a grip on being part of nature as opposed to. We are a civilization and outside of it. The the problem will continue to grow Samir has been listening to this quite intention of I really want you to the comments on some of the MO much bolder thrust that we've been looking at because obviously your way that there's a little skepticism about this. Because what's it's all very well intentioned in terms of what the report is highlighted. It's also the the the worry that perhaps there it really. Mount much because of the divisions in the wall between politicians who don't believe in climate change science, and those who do but also as well, I think the thing which led talent is this idea that if resources become scarce Ralph within conflict being generated if you like by territorial ambitions, it's going to be generated by concerns about precious resources like water. Absolutely. I think I think in to kind of address your point about skepticism. I I think that it's quite notable that this report has involved scientists from so many countries and not just that. But we'll say intergovernmental agreement, and I think to have such a stock warning in a UN report, given the kind of constraints on those types of reports, and how many different people in how many different governments need to feed into it. I think that's quite significant. Of course, the kind of wholesale overhaul of systems it's needed to to take action. And that's called for is a whole other question. But I think the hope of the report writers will be that it might have the same kind of impact on changing. The discussion as the UN report that came out last year around climate change. It said we have twelve years to catastrophe, which again was unusually strong language for such a report, and that I think has played a really significant part in in in kind of changing the conversation, and at least placing climate change question higher up the political agenda than it has been previously. Of course, again, the wholesale changes is slow, but I think what the authors of this report will certainly be getting is the idea that that, you know, we don't have time to waste kind of debating with skeptics anymore. We need to take action on this stuff now. And as you say, it's feeding into a whole other series of human catastrophes conflict, which switches and so on, but the idea of people that she fighting over water because water is self is scarce. But also as well we're talking about this now, but do I feel that perhaps this this? This report might not have gone quite so much attention. Had it not been for this for tutors collision of circumstances. In other words, this is David Attenborough documentary. Coming after the extinction rebellion protests, the worldwide attention, which these drew will we be having this conversation at all. Yeah. I think when the UN comes out with a report of this scale. Yes. I mean UN reports have triggered, you know, as I said as I was saying earlier, you know, various attempts to come up with climate. Targets over the last twenty twenty five years, but it is for to it-it's, but it just because you bring up extinction rebellion. I'm still, you know, I my sympathies are with the kids who came out and did it, but you know, until the people take to the streets conform. You late a set of possible political solutions, they can't stand outside parliament. And basically say do something parliament can't even negotiate Britain out of European Union. After three years takes, you know, it does take it takes some thought as to what is doable here. And if it's a catastrophe that's unavoidable. If we don't get our act together in a dozen years that means there has to be some fairly strong political bullet points that can be handed up to the politicians, and then you can pressure. That's the way it works. I think that's true to an extent. Although I mean, the the kind of rates have change of scene from from climate changes escalated, so dramatically over the thirty lost thirty years, and you could argue that politicians having as they do the kind of benefit not not years and months, but decades of of advice from climate scientists and Moebius and so on I think collectively know exactly what to do really. And it's maybe not for the kind of twenty-something protesters to say, although I do think having a kind of spotlight on this issue is good having it higher the political agendas. Obviously good. But that I think there's a big difference between attention and the kind of wholesales systemic change we need. Okay. Let's move on now to the United States, which is planning to send an aircraft carrier under task force to the Middle East after it accused Iran of ramping up tensions in the area. The US national security adviser John Bolton said the move was in response to quote, a number of troubling and escalatory indications and warnings from Iran. Although he didn't say what they were missing. Tunes announcement comes just days after Ted on expressed its concern that US policy. Hawks could be looking to draw Donald Trump's administration into a wall say Michael John Bolton might want to war. But a wouldn't Donald Trump himself be reluctant to go down that route since his face certainly wouldn't like it, and it might be to higher risk to take as he's gearing up the twenty twenty election. Okay. Th there's an error in in in the way, you pose that question consistency. You think that there's consistency? He came to office saying, I these are useless wars were useless wars because somebody other than Donald Trump started them. But if Donald Trump starts it, then it's a useful war and to space will go with him are enough enough ranting here, here's the let me just come to recent reality last week. We saw an attempted coup in Venezuela. And there are clues in. There are coups, you know, and I know Venezuela reasonably well. And there's a country where probably. The population really do want the regime to go. They haven't got the means to do it. So here's this guy. Guido he says all right time to come out of the barracks. Did they come out of the barracks? Army? No, no. You think they if they can't organize a coup in Venezuela, which is just across the Caribbean from Florida, you tell me how they're going going to organize any kind of coup in a country eighty million people. With a fighting army that is well seasoned in. Well, tested. And they are almost geographically linked to Russia's fear of influence, Russia and Iran, get on Russia and Venezuela and regime get on this is not going to happen. And what Bolton is doing when he says side from the fact that the US navy announced it was sending these thing the ships into area on maneuvers six weeks ago. He's just playing to the base of the base. And this is this is the point isn't it because he talked about we indications or warnings without actually specify what they are. I mean, what do you think he's talking about these flimflam, I guess alone level? But yeah, it's absolutely. It's very unclear what he meant an his whole tone seems very provocative. In fact, the whole statement she seems just like a provocation just kind of ironic given that he's accusing the reins of some as yet unspecified provocation of their own. It's also highly unusual for national security advisor to make this. Kind of announcement. I mean, these kinds of big scale changes in deployment quite common. But typically, they might be announced by the Pentagon, and probably, you know, under planning for quite some time. And so it does seem like it's just a lot of a lot of hotter. I mean, this is a man who's on record from from before this role saying that the only way to stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons is to bomb them say it's kind of in keeping I think, but it's certainly a provocative statement provocative. Yes. But Michael their own has also said that America's putting things into place for accidents to happen. And that's the worrying thing that an era could lead to something much greater your that's always the case in one of the reasons that when I read about the Democrats thinking, well, maybe we shouldn't impeach try and get rid of Trump the yes, I firmly believe he'll be thrown out of office next year. When Americans get a chance to vote again. But every day that we wake up on this planet with Donald Trump is president. It's a possibility of an accident happening. And that is something to be worried about however in this case, I'm so old that I can remember, you know, when you're going back to the Reagan administration when they wanted to bomb Iran at the same time that they were rearming Iran in its war with Iraq and the conduit for rearming Iran was Israel, which wants to bomb, Iran. So it's an incredibly complicated and almost ridiculous situation. Adamant they from what Mike this head of history repeating itself decide this determination to bomb Iran because they're on the scene as a sponsor of international terrorism in the region. Yeah. I mean, of course, it's a long running along running tension. You know, of course, the US in around have been kind of at loggerheads for decades. And it's a real shame that the kind of agreement that was reached under Obama with a lot of hard work. You say has been pulled back from by the USO that it's worth nineteen that Iran and other European partners to the deal are still adhering to it. And I think that actually is an indication of why Iran probably wouldn't want to be provoking the US. You know, they don't want to dommage those relationships that they've worked hard to preserve with with other European significance to that deal. Okay. Well, you're listening to Midori house with me Juliette foster, I'm like Mira shackle. I'm Michael Goldfarb and coming up next thirteen people have been killed and dozens of others injured after Taliban fighters launch an attack on a police station in Milton Afghanistan. Very own monocle library is growing into a robust collection of well-turned out titles for an in depth look into our core theme of quality of life. Why not delve into our first ever book, the monocle guide to better living for any would be business leaders entre preneurs or even established companies in search of fresh ideas. There's the monocle guy to good business in how to make a nation among guide. We looked at the small end the big things that can help make our nation's work better and in the monocle to drinking and dining, we bypass the foam and the fuss uncover the makings of a truly great meal. Monaco's handsome books are published by our friends at Shelton in Berlin. And offer a world of new experiences between the covers so spruce up your shelves today. And by some of our titles online at Monaco dot com or from any good bookstore. Still with me on my guess, Samir shackle, and Michael Goldfarb, not least thirteen people have been killed and dozens wounded off ton of own fighters. Attacked a police headquarters in northern Afghanistan over the weekend. A suicide bomber driving a humvee loaded with explosives began the assault in the city of polygamy clashes between gunmen and security services, followed or the attack came days off to the town of bomb. Rejected a ceasefire offer by the country's government and backed by the United States and Samarra Afghanistan is one of those those subjects which it flits in and out of the western media News Radio, but we should never forget that. It is still a long way from a settled peace and that the ongoing volatility has wide implications for the region and beyond. Yeah. Absolutely. In fact, last year two thousand eighteen was the was the worst year for civilian casualties since records began of that type of STAN say. I think mayor around four thousand civilians killed and a further seven thousand injured. So it's kind of it certainly at the moment getting worse. Not better in the in the context of recent history, and the Taliban also control moorlands than they have any point since two thousand and one. So it's not it's not a kind of good picture on the ground. And I think the kind of confusing thing that can be when it does enter the western media. It's either stories like this which are reports of casualties attacks on Afghan forces or or whatever it is. Or it's talk about the peace talks in cutter, which the US Donna holding peace talks. Sorry. The US in the Taliban holding peace talks, the Afghan government's been shut out of them. But those kind of things running concurrently on the one hand, we get a little drip that pieces on the horizon on the other hand these casualties really ramping up or not. And I think that can be that can probably be quite confusing. And the interesting thing is we'll just picking up from something. That's. What was said just now Michael is that this. This is a group that time bomb, but has had its fair share of setbacks over the years, but then military capacity appears not have been diminished. Well in this is that they are fighting on a home match every week. And clearly their supply lines have not been cut off. We know that, you know, I in fact. Samir probably knows better than I, you know, the degree to which the situation doesn't really change much from year to year in that people go over the border into Pakistan that come back the other way, they know the mountains there's been a down of of American troops and coalition forces as we call them, and it seems as if the idea is to try to protect the capital Kabul as much as possible, and what happens in the rest of the countries what happens in the rest of the country is that true similar. I think that I think to an extent although actually that has been real ramping up with attacks by the Taliban in Kabul as well. And save seeing a lot of kind of foreigners including those working for big organizations leaving and no longer being based though. So I think it's kind of west near across the board. But certainly as in in many unstable and difficult to govern places. There is a focus on keeping the keeping Kabul safe. I think. Yeah. What I found. Interesting is just reading about this is Pakistan's own internal assessment because it says that I've gone to STAN could slide into civil war. So it's it's held back from that for the moment. Very briefly is Pakistan right in that assessment. And what's it gonna do for the country given that it's got something like two point five million registered and unregistered Afghan refugees living in the country. Yeah. Of course. I mean, it's a very very very intimately connected. Stan enough granison. But I think the Pakistani state doesn't speak with us single voice on this. They on the one hundred civilian government might express concerns about the impact of the of a renewed civil war, and I've gone Tucson. Which would undoubtedly have a huge impact on the other elements of the security forces are funding, the Taliban, and that's one of the things that's allowed them to keep going. So that's the kind of longstanding contradiction of Pakistani, Afghan policy. Okay. Let's move on to our final subject because these Sultan of Brunei has backed down on plans to enforce laws that would have punished adultery enga- sex with stoning to death on Sunday. He extended. Moratorium on the death penalty to cover the new legislation. Well, the sultan's you tone for those a global outcry over the north which included protests by ADA celebrities Elton, John and George Clooney who called for a boycott of luxury hotels owned by Brunei. We'll let the death penalty is still on the statute books. Certain crimes. No executions have been carried out in Brunei since nineteen fifty seven, and Michael I guess that. There's something rather ironic about these laws because they will part of general phasing in given that the sultans family had a reputation for being pretty wild in terms. It's lifestyle, particularly his brother here. Here. I was surprised when the one never hears about Brunei much, except when they pay for some stars to go out. And celebrate somebody's birthday in some insanely huge palace. So I was surprised to hear this. And because you know, I tend to pay attention to Syria rather than Brunei. I mean, perhaps there's some political dynamic that led him to do this that to keep more conservative elements in his Muslim population. Happy says, okay. Well, we'll we'll stone. We'll stone them to death. We'll stone homosexuals to debt. And then he gets the other side of it, which is global backlash against a country that you know, trying to be part of the global conversation, and perhaps a place where people go to visit. So I don't know without knowing the political dynamics that led to him doing this or could have just been he woke up one morning because. You know, people forget that we live in the twenty first century. But there are genuinely absolute monarchs, and whether it's Mohammed bin Salman as crown prince, but who has executive authority in row in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia or or the Sultan of Brunei. These are people who really have no no checks on them. And if they wake up one morning feeling we're gonna do something they do it. Let's take up. Walnuts. As mayor because they was one train of full-ti- toes about this quite some time ago that they set the term whoever coming team said, well, look, you know, the Celtics getting laziness seventies. And perhaps he's thinking about his legacy and his mortality. So what better way to actually address those issues by coming out with you also try to extraordinarily Jakonen Papp's? Yeah. I mean, I guess it's hard to know what his kind of psychology behind. It was what the what the reasons, but I think it certainly seems that he didn't unanticipated the level of international backlash. It's quite notable. That the statement saying they're not going to be imposing this law. He really still say in English oversee got the international community in mind. I neither calls among from Human Rights Watch. Another is that if the law was wasn't forced to personally sanctioned this alternate his family, which I'm sure would have had an effect too. But before we finish off. I think it's worth noting as well that the law hasn't been repealed have said they went and enforce it. But you lost touch. In the context of an absolute monarchy. I mean, there's absolutely no safeguards against that happening. Yeah. I guess the author absurdity is what is that? If you're going to live with or not he's Asian of adultery against somebody. You've got to catch them in the act if it's any substance that time in the habit of breaking into people's veterans. But what leave it the head because that brings us to be indoor today show, Samir shackle. I'm Michael Goldfarb. Thank you both for joining us here at Midori house and today's show was produced by Tom, and it was researched by Gustav, Pacheco and Julia Webster and as studio manager was David Stevens more music next nine thousand nine hundred hours. It is the Monica culture show with Robert bound, and we'll have more on the day's main stories on the daily at twenty two hundred Midori houses back at the same time tomorrow that is eighteen hundred London time. I'm Juliette foster goodbye.

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"You're listening to Midori house. First broadcast on the twenty first of January twenty nineteen on monocle twenty four. Hello and welcome to Madari house coming to you live from studio one here in London. I'm Daniel beach on today's show Donald Trump has new emulation to attack the media after a BuzzFeed report on the Russia investigation is dismissed by Robert Mueller himself as well as Trump's trumpeter in chief Rudy Giuliani yesterday. Buzzfeed published a story that was scandalous. It was horrible actually sued. They should be under investigation. They said the president in I states council someone ally. What they did yesterday. Faker will discuss it. My guest, Robert FOX and Michael Goldfarb. We'll be discussing what it means for Trump and the media and the day's other top stories, including a German arms dealer intends to sue the government over arms sales to Saudi Arabia is this one way for the west to curb support for the Saudi regime and the war in Yemen. And the World Economic Forum is set to open in Davos with a number of noted absences from the world of politics will it affect the agenda, and how much does Davos matter in the grand scheme of things we're here to dig into the serious topics with a bit of levity Alta Brighton. Your blue Monday here on Midori house with me, Daniel beach. Welcome to majority house. My guest today are Robert FOX defense editor for the London Evening Standard and author journalists Michael Goldfarb, welcome both to the program, gentlemen. The world economic form opens tomorrow in Davos with business and political leaders gathering for five days of planning discussion and networking high in the Swiss Alps, famed though Davos is for its high at ten dis this year, there are some conspicious absences from the form both UK Prime Minister Theresa may and US President Donald Trump to bog down with these shoes on the home front to attend French president Emmanuel Macron as well passing it over in parts. So he can continue his grand debate tour a series of speaking engagements around the country. He hopes will help him turn the political tide. Amidst the chalet Joan protest movement. It won't be a total. Ghost town. However, New Zealand's to send ardor n-. German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Japan's Shinzo Abbaye will be on hand. To discuss this year's theme. Globalization four point -o shaping global architecture in age of the fourth industrial revolution. Well. With all that's going on in the world. Robert, what do you make of that theme? Globalization four point. Oh. I think the word by one lead on to that is grind stand. The trouble is that these are very high profile thickness. The talk quite liked by television, set seven kind of television because of the setting and newspapers like of the financial times, the Wall Street Journal, actually, what you hear from the platform really has an effect on anything tool occasionally. And it's usually not a state Representative of Markle or whatever who says something who might say something interesting about the shaping of the world economy. And it's the kind of figure like on the one hand, George Soros or Jim O'Neill who invented the bricks. It's it it it. It's a jamboree. It's a get together. It's a shmooze party. But Mike I am going to steal his thunder. We were sitting in agreement. I gave him all my best linebacker some. I should have just attack hosting on face. It's actually a spook fast. Okay. And it's it's the networking. It's the background stuff. It's the shaping and moving and what the spooks will be talking about is the ghosts. Who are not at least. It's not. It's very interesting those that you named traum Bob MRs may or Macron now. Now, it's g and Putin. And then they will be really looking at what the hell that really up to well populism. You know, the downturn in the Chinese economy, so many things going on is this a good platform. Michael a chance to for you to steal some thunder back here as well. A good platform for business and politics together. My impression is actually very similar to rubbers because I've never been. Although, you know, I'm a I'm really disappointed because you know, that it is an event that that grew organically, not so organically, Klaus Fuchs halcion's Schwab, really wanted to make this be what it became and probably was really important about five years ago supplies where in a globalized world, Jeff these captains of industry, you have government. You know, where's the balance? I mean is the national governments still in charge of a nation's destiny or is it a banker in New York or London? But we know the answer. Anyone listening to this program knows the answer to that, you know, and it's the. Kind of place where you know to see. Jamie diamond on the floor as a delegate like me at at a press conference asking Angela Merkel question the visual on that is extraordinaire, and that's what they tried to create. But in an empty hole, I would have been happily gone, by the way, if if Claude Schwab had sent me a ticket and paid me a presidium I'd have happily been been a background person. But I mean before Robert interrupts me to come back to the point. I mean, the idea that of globalization four point -o anyone who's paid any attention to what's happened on the face of the earth. Geopolitically the last two years knows, you know, something that's not what we're about. We're facing don't say populism. Don't say nationalism were seeing a resurgence of ethnic hatred clothed in fascism, and let's not let's not make it. Nice populism. What does that mean? We're you see that people who have who have been left. Find grotesquely left behind by the very people whose lives are built around Davos are claiming something back and they're being egged on by people who actually would have gone to office as well. I mean, Steve Bannon would have gone to Davos, I mean, either when he was working in Hollywood when he's vehicles Mun sacks. He would have been Davos man, but he's been rejected. Now, he's trying to destroy that world. I wanted my I'm going to bring the foot night up. First thing that mmediately sprung to mind was conspiracies love the media immediate love conspiracies. And you're absolutely right about Douglas when it was a semi width thing. What's this really going on? They love that. Remember, the Bilderberg group at actually as they Bill. They are interesting and now very important look at the Munich security conference as the the Cobol ground da- grand down right word and other conflicts grew up at we were looking in the post Helsinki Final Act world. Everybody forgets. About the those police it principles that embraced for example. Then these things became important. But if I was on if it's globalization for whatever it is four point zero would don't put point note one. Somebody says what santio Panzer the world is divided into the haves and the have not have not. And that's why you need to start for to go what they're doing as you rightly identified Michael is to go into an old rubrics, globalization, the whole globalization proposition. Can we put it that came in immediately after the end of the Kobo, then we had nine eleven in the two connected within a decayed vanities blown people are worried about global light values now because it actually favors the hives who are seen as a minority against the increasing number of have nots, and you can talk development, economics and development. He conomic gurus like support Collio call you up the yin Yang. But people know that that's what's happening. We have sixty eight million refugees in the world, according to the UN and. Then the UN struggles to get together a global compact on by Gration says. We've got to find a third of a billion migrants who have no state and have no who don't know where to go. That's not where Davos is Gary that is where we see a dysfunctional Middle East, which is probably an oxymoron because it's always, you know, I it's it's always been that. And these are the things that should be addressed. And this is where actually it is. You know? Like, you know. It's economic stars on ice. Roberts. Absolutely, right. Yeah. It's four point. Oh, four point one four point two you wake up in the morning and dramatic is telling you download Mojave. I'm quite fine with the operating system. I've got, you know, don't tell me spend a whole day and probably end up losing half, my work installing new operating system that you've been shipping down the like me, we don't need that. Now, what if you have the money, and if you have the brains, and you know, it you can't be dismissive of the people who go they have money, and they do have brains that should be focusing on precisely these issues and working possibly in concert with the UN. But is the UN secretary general there who knows Emmys, particularly good UN secretary general I haven't seen mentioned. And that's another problem does seem. Does seem. Going on in the world with interest fading. And this and all the issues that that Robertson rally brought up about about the half and have nonsense. This then not as important a form as it used to be Michael t think, Well, I I think that look p people build their their lives around it. I mean, Donald Trump was going to lease screwed up and started this government shutdown. Steve Mnuchin is secretary of the treasury was going to go until just this weekend when Trump realized geez, you know, I've cancelled Nancy Pelosi's trip. I better cancel Steve Mnuchin strip to Davos, so they've done that you know, it has browned recognition considerably greater brand recognition than Bilderberg. I think Robert if they do, but you know, you can't have a couple of seasons of being so far off the main topic of conversation with in governments. Like, I say, it's, you know, here's business here's government, and they meet up in doubles. If you're going to be that far off the concerns of elected officials, then you're going to lose realm. Defense. So they better get it together. I guess for next year. I'm saying fascinating analysis. Both let's move on now to Saudi Arabia over the past year. The oil-rich kingdom has found itself. Increasingly in the spotlight following global indignation at the assassination of leading Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi inside the country's embassy in Turkey. The international community has taken notice of some of the kingdom's other equally egregious practices key among those has been the ongoing war in Yemen. The government heavily backed by the Saudis has been battling Iranian backed who the who the militias since two thousand fifteen and defense contractors the world over have been reaping the rewards of Saudi Arabia's wealth. While Donald Trump has resisted calls to limit arms sales to Saudi Arabia. Robert other countries have imposed embargoes yesterday. It was reported. A Germans weapons manufacturer plans to sue the German state for loss of revenue following just such an embargo. Does this have legs at all for you? How's legs, but it has very? Very cynical legs. And it's Ron Matale who very important in the building of tanks in western Europe. Not only for the brand lead the leopard to put by the Germans. But also the British have laughingly still as a time kindle street behind the challenger to. That's that's a bit nerdy. But it really touches. The whole point about Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is involved in this really breakneck policy, led by the crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman, which has three points and one is to prosecute this extraordinary wall in Yemen, which is disastrous it's leading not only to the distress of a country, but the title collapses Artie at in terms of humanitarian crises they're about to break new in new grants well-done, RIA. On that. The thing is very difficult is that actually the bombing campaign that's going on at the by Wynton actually that bummed Saana again today as as we speak simply couldn't happen without forget US. It's US flight controllers ground controllers target as trainers, practically driving, the planes and the Brits. And the French are not far behind not far behind them. The Germans aids egregious, it's it's causing distress. And in some ways, I would say it's a bit of a false perspective from the Saudis, but nobody does say's societies of the UA UAE. It's M B S ad Muhammad bin Zayid of a of the UAE, this is where we confront Iran because they have the Iranian proxies. Actually that is far too simplistic, and it is either to be generous. It is naive on the on the on their western backers. Or actually totally cynical from a business point cynical in in in in in in backing them the other thing, by the way, just to add in is cutter. And this this which come what comes around goes around if the way of confronting Iran, it, it's a totally disastrous and unpredictable path so much. So the regional path that in a way who's interested is to support Saudi Arabia confronting Iran. I just won't want to get Mike Mico is the Israelis the Israelis are given it giving up on that too wild unreliable hitherto allies, the US and the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. It is very serious this crisis doesn't get much traction at the moment because it's daily it's the daily distress of the people, and I think, you know, Chatham house. Which is a a federal that means. Be cynical slide by that. But a very important thing tank in the UK just on the road from here. Yemen, they think in terms of regional conflicts is the number one crisis in the world now as of January twenty twenty nine thousand eight so sorry, we started with Rheinmetall. Yes. It's a flag. It's a little red flag of a very very big problem behind it. So is that is this the idea that that a business wants to inject itself in in what the foreign policy may be? I mean Rheinmetall's also just bought a fifty percent stake in as combat vehicles division as well. So there are there are some ties here between Germany between Brexit, all kinds of translate. The the thing about the arms industry, which exists entirely. It's almost entirely subs. I it's it's this enclosed system in which we pay taxes a certain amount of our tax money goes to defense developing defense industries the defense industry. Than sell on surplus not for our defense. But they export defense stuff to wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia, and it it becomes it's not a free market kind of business. It is locked in to the government mechanics in each and every place. Now, I'm I'm just gonna guess your rob Robert is a defense correspondent generalist another general, Emma, generalist, your general. I am I come out. I command divisions. A command long division. I know how to do it. Let's say that Germany that Angela Merkel is has announced that she stepping aside. And I just think that the strong power politically in Germany is going to wobble a bit with. We know who her preferred successor is out of the Christian, Democrats, she she will face challenges from within the Christian Democratic party. Angela Merkel was very powerful. There might have been a time to it three years ago when Rheinmetall would never have dreamed of publicly saying we're going to sue you. 'cause you're screwing us out of X amount of money and the Americans will will take market share from us. So I think there's that dynamic as well. And whenever we talk about defence industries, just always remember that they are the true adjuncts of government. And you mentioned be a I mean, it comes out of so many different companies that have merged in merged in merged. British aerospace. And I I've been here for thirty five years. I can remember some of these mergers, you know, but it's always because the government needs to have as needed to have a a more streamlined industrial bureaucracy. So anyway, I mean, and then Robert brings up Yemen Yemen is we used to say two or three years ago Syria was like Spain in the nineteen thirties. But I do think that the much more at analogy is Yemen today where you are you have. The US Israel and Saudi Arabia now as a triumph it, and they really would like to provoke some kind of conflict with Iran. Meanwhile, the Iran is on the northern borders of Israel completely propping up Assad and in between and down in in Yemen. You have this population of people who were dirt poor they were dirt poor at the start of the war, and they're being destroyed truly destroyed and because of the danger of covering the war and because western newspapers here any we're talking basically in the Anglo American world were unwilling to put correspondents there. I know one woman terrific reporter who was there for five years ago. I own a Craig. L A free up very often regular front, and she she was she was there on on on the on a no-frills stringer contract. She was compelled to bear witness. Nobody else was down. Liz KENDALL as well, Michael. I slightly disagree with you on that point, you listener, friends, you can find out about Yemen. If you really want to it is out there. And that is why it is an absolute disgrace. And displacement and news where I slightly disagree. I'm not quarreling with you, Michael did I follow you. I think that the worm is going to turn on this actually the great public. I think the Brits the Brits are fed up with that told they have a thirty five billion actually forty forty five billion annual defense budget, and what's it for? It's not to keep Britain safe. And our jolly boys we've seen some very brave and exceptional service. Recently, the SAS officer in in the Nairobi shopping complex siege. Knee last week. No the predicate is support British defense industries be a van. I follow news. A man before his time. The late Robin Cook former foreign secretary, I think we are gonna get more and more ethical about this. We all fed up with having been brainwashed by this idea with threatened at every turn by the Russians the Chinese the Indonesia, and you may invent whatever you may. Yes, they are a threat of a sudden kind. So we have to spend an enormous amount of money on these arms. These arms industries can only work if we sell it to people like Saudi Arabia to bomb civilians in Yemen. Fascinating analysis, a Robert Ashkenazi just just briefly before we move on with the renewed interest in Yemen and concern about industry with Brexit. Is there a fine ethical line to walk there for for these contractors? Yes, yes. There is the the the the the problem is that. A British Aerospace could formally was is absolutely has been. So based on what it sells to the Middle East, particularly through the mama deal to to Saudi Arabia. And as we look at the as this thing goes on it will be time to call time on it as I think with for the UK, but the French and nowhere near it. And thank God that British of much more advanced on this. It's time to call to really call in question, the unilateral so-called a single British nuclear turn, which is going to cost way ahead of one hundred billion pounds. But that is not the argument. It is it even intellectually in deterrent terms in its own theology. I'm slightly useless. Still with me, Michael Goldfarb, and Robert FOX I want to turn our attention now to the us where the news arm of a website known for click Bank quizzes and viral videos is in hot water today late last week. Buzzfeed news reported President Donald Trump had instructed his lawyer Michael Cohen to lie in his testimony to congress about dealing with Russia over a possible Trump Tower in Moscow and BuzzFeed reports the Muller inquiry new this the reporters behind the story have written well received articles on this exact topic. But in this case, Robert Muller broke, nearly twenty months of silence in denying the news reports around this investigation, Donald Trump has seized on the denial saying it certain proof of what he likes to call the witch hunt by the liberal media against him. Michael. What do you make of the fact BuzzFeed is standing by its reporting? Well, this is this is one of these stories that. You wonder whether this is a black up you wonder, whether they just got ahead of ahead of themselves over their skis, the the Muller Muller spokesman's denial wasn't a total denial. So that they got some some things some this is not what we heard. We'll we'll wait and see eventually millers report will come out sooner rather than later. I woke up Friday early early for whatever reason just after the story dropped New York. And it was so shocking. I mean, everybody got it immediately. This was both feed they're supposed to feed the quiz site. And they broke away the news division as it were BuzzFeed news because they knew that people weren't taking them seriously. Because everybody thought it was about Dayton quizzes. These are serious journalists. One of them has a checkered past. Basically, they're saying the president of the United States super and perjury that's game setting much. Now Muller comes back by the end of the day says that's not true. The New York Times did not run with the story interestingly, and there's a lot of speculation in this is this is gossip, but, you know, reasonably informed speculation that the New York Times has its own sources in the Mueller office and also in in the southern district of New York, which is also investigating Trump. And they said hands off they got it there. There's stuff that's wrong in there. And my guess is. But we're seeing now is that as I say they got too far out over their skis. There are details in their report. That are incorrect we'll know more in two weeks time because Michael Cohen Trump's former lawyer and basically as bagman is going to be testifying in front of a house. Komo. Now that the Democrats control the house of representatives. They have subpoena power. They've subpoenaed him come and tell us what you know, they will put very pointed questions about this to Michael Cohen. So I think we all have to be a bit patient until that happens. But there's one of the thing and Roberts Ciampino novas. Come in. Most people listen to Monica will not remember this story. But I do because I do know people who are involved in it back in the early two thousands. CBS news reported this big deal that George W Bush was then president had gone AWOL during the Vietnam war. He had a very cushy physician in the air force reserve that was the way he got out of serving in Vietnam, and they had documents which proved he had not attended one of his weekend requirements, and it turned out the documents had been doctored. They were setup it was probably a black up from within the Bush Whitehouse because they knew the story because they thought they had it. But they didn't have it nailed down. They were susceptible to a piece of paper that came over the transom, and it turned out that it was a forgery. He I think BuzzFeed I was was soon as I saw the BuzzFeed news thing, and what over Twitter, and of course, everybody in Washington is up tweeting tweeting tweeting, and I started tweeting back. Just remember this just remember this. It may be you know, and probably like George Bush was a wall a couple of weekends. But it didn't matter it ruined Dan rathers career because on the specifics of this. He was wrong. And I worry that BuzzFeed made of got those few facts wrong. They've been set up and they have an and it's going to put a poll over whatever proper Miller says which is why Mueller came out so quickly. Well, interesting molars offers said that BuzzFeed characterization of documents and statements was inaccurate. We should point out that Cohen is in jail for lying to congress just unclear if the present president told him to do this but out of this Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani did say Trump was involved in discussions to build a skyscraper in Moscow throughout the presidential campaign at a time when he was calling for an end to economic sanctions against Russia questioning the legitimacy of NATO which. Putin loves to hate and seeking a deal to release hack democratic emails said to be stolen by Russia's. So Robert, did we get more clarity on this the things that are actually true out of this story that may be inaccurate or totally wrong. Well, that's why he's been so -ffective with coming up with the formula fake news, which works final Twitter. But when you really have to discuss the Hofei, which needs a slow tempo he'd need to drop your heartbeat. And you need a lot of investigation. This if anything we learned from the Watergate investigation, you know, will the president's plan. It was no by no means as electric and single source as doc within the in the movie, and of course, and even the book by by wouldn't Ben what is going on here. I think is that they have really got to deep into it. And I was saying to Michael before we came in abet for the didn't immediately strike is how close of the wolves getting to the sleigh. Led the by a nice suspect. They are this is what is worrying Mullah? I think that's why the scanned by what happened with bug BuzzFeed because you cannot put a millimeter fingernail wrong. I think it's wearing Jude Rudy Giuliani from various quotes that he has given what is the Trump relationship with with with Russia? We've had on the other side these incredible stories whether they're true or not I'm still not convinced by Trump into meeting with Putin Bundy that the interpreted TASR up her notes at at an and so on. But what does Putin really want? And there was a very very good short piece in the financial times. Wait by great, Putin and Trump watcher Edward loose in say just watch is the end game. And we know that that both great disrupters are the two great disruptors disruption of NATO, this is where actually Trump himself is boxed in because if he moves on NATO that that's when the tanks will move in on his lawn. Big time, I don't think this is going to be the conscious by late. But it's another thing. What is interesting is the maturity with which Mona has maneuvered on on this. But it is not came over by any manner of means yet fascinating from both of you. Thank you so much that does bring us to the end of today's show, Michael Goldfarb and Robert FOX today show produced by custom macho Larry research by Fernando Augusta per shekel and Martha LeBron our studio manager, David Stephen. Is there is more music next? And then at nine thousand nine hundred hours, it is the monocle culture show. We'll have more on the day's top news stories on the monocle daily with your host, Marcus hippie, twenty two hundred London time fourteen hundred in Los Angeles. But every house back tomorrow, I'm Daniel beach. Thank you for listening. And goodbye.

Saudi Arabia President Donald Trump Yemen US Davos Michael BuzzFeed Robert Angela Merkel president Michael Goldfarb Russia Michael Cohen Trump Robert FOX Iran UK Michael Cohen Putin Bundy New York London
Assassinations

Power Corrupts

57:25 min | 2 years ago

Assassinations

"August fourth two thousand eighteen. Caracas venezuela. You're out on your Belka ni looking out at the military parade unfolding below. Nncholas Maduro, the dictator who helped wreck Venezuela's economy is giving a speech rallying the troops sprinkling in a bit of good old-fashioned defiant nationalism for good measure. Madero is wearing a neatly pressed black suit adorned with a splash of color from red blue and yellow military sash the colors of the Venezuelan flag. You look down and see columns of troops neatly aligned in row after row stretching into the distance on the wide boulevard below. It's a show of strength a symbol that if you stand up to the dictator, you'll be crushed. And then you start to hear an unfamiliar word a speck of black zooms closer in the sky growing larger as it approaches your apartment block. When it gets close enough, you see that it's a drone a bit bigger than most dinky novelty ones. You can buy it a gadget store, but still you figure it's got a camera on it. And I am the sky to fill me event, maybe something to produce a bit of slick propaganda for the dictator in the future. You don't think much of it as it flies toward the stage. And you also think little of it when you see another drone approach figuring. Well, it must just be to get to aerial angles, the same speech and the same parade. And then. Other NAMI in. Drone explodes bright balls of orange flame lighting up the daytime sky. And you have to wonder did you witness an assassination attempt? Or was it a carefully scripted explosion, that can give Venezuela's dictator the pretexts he needed to consolidate power and crackdown on his political rivals? I'm Brian Close. And you're listening to power corrupts, the podcast where we shine a light onto the hidden and often various forces that shape, our world. Brazil long as humans have been around we've been murdering each other and assassinations targeted killings of prominent people for political reasons are also as old as human history for thousands of years opportunistic ambitious ideologically driven people have tried to usurp power by killing the people who occupy the word assassin emerged in the eleventh century referring to an Islamic sect called the knees. Ariz the word SS in Arabic means principle foundation. Assassins were skilled fighters would use stealth tactics and targeted killings to protect religious principles today. We explore the fascinating heroin and tragic world assassinations across time and space, including the emperor assassins, of ancient, Rome, the Belgian loud, murder of democratic reformer in the Congo attempts to kill political leaders with drones retrofitted with explosives and jihadists and tyrants, trying to silence journalists from Iraq to Saudi Arabia and along the way, we'll look at how assassinations can help us get closer to resolve along standing debate. Over whether leaders shape history, or whether the forces of history shape leaders. Two thousand years ago, Agra Pena, the younger was born in ancient Rome. She was the younger sister of Caligula, an insane tyrant who slept all his sisters and made his horse. A high ranking console in the Roman government now Colella wasn't exactly the kind of guy, you'd want to have at dinner party when he hosted banquets. He would randomly proclaim to his guests, JoJo. I've just realized that I could snap my fingers and have all of your heads cut off what a charmer. Colella met his end the way that so many insane tyrants. Do he was assassinated? Then when I grow, Pena's, son, Nero became emperor, tired of his mom Boston route. So rather than say, telling her to stop a normal person would he plotted to kill her instead? I, he figured that he can get rid of her by transforming her bed into a sort of ancient death machine. So he rigged it up, so that when she got into bed for weight with tree, or a contraption that caused the seeming above her to collapse crushing her to death. But I Pena was really paranoid with good reason it must be said, and so she already had slaves tester bed every night. An unfortunate slave got into bed that evening, the ceiling collapsed, and he was crushed to death instead of her. Now Niro, wasn't one to give up. And he also wasn't one to let a good idea, go to waste. So he figured that the collapsing ceiling thing was a good idea. But only that implementation was a bit flawed. This time it would work. So he rigged up a self sinking boat, a boat for his mom that when she went out to see the ceiling of it would collapse and cause his mom to drown Tacitus explained, what happened when at a given signal the ceiling of the place, which was loaded with a quantity of lead, Fillion, and Correa's was crushed an instantly killed, and repeat and Aker oneal were protected by the projecting sides of the couch, which happened to be too strong to you under the weight. I think you'll agree that my dad does a pretty good Tacitus, but so now Agra Pena has been saved by one unfortunate. Slave and once-sturdy couch. And you'd think that Pena would have gotten the message she would have realized that maybe it's time to flee from her murderous son, but she just stayed put instead presumably looking up a lot more often than she used to. But Niro was stubborn. And he figured that the collapsing ceiling thing, well an elegant solution wasn't really worth the hassle any longer. So he just hired some good old fashioned assassins to beat his mom to death with clubs in her final words before they started clubbing, her Agra Pena asked the assassins to quote slight, my womb to stab her in the part of the body from which near okay? They obliged they stabbed her and she died. Assassinations Agra Pena's are different from the well known modern assasinations of people like John F. Kennedy in Dallas, Texas, three shots were fired up president, Kennedy's motorcade and downtown Dallas or Anwar Sadat in Egypt. Many assassinations are aimed at taking someone out of power. But with Pena, it was about silencing threat to power rather than killing someone who already wielded it. And our next story is in the same vein. A moving tragedy from the Iraq war, the story of an aspiring journalist who just wanted to be free to speak his mind and the people who decided that the easiest way to stop him from doing that was to kill him. Hi, Michael Goldfarb. And I'm the author of ultimate swore peace. He's not just the author of that excellent book. He's also a season journalist who has reported from twenty five countries and has produced award winning work for National Public Radio, the BBC and many other outlets. But this story is about his time in Iraq, and it begins, Michael arrived in Iraq to cover the start of the war looking for local fixer almost everybody who could speak good English, and or Beal had already been hired by the New York Times, we'll Street Journal, the American networks, but Michael ended up meeting the perfect man for the job by complete happenstance. His English was good. But it was extremely idiosyncratic was literally interviewing for the job. We knew the war was about to start. I had no translator. My job was to follow the overthrow of Saddam through someone who had suffered under Saddam, and I meet this guy in the lobby of a hotel, and in the middle of the interview, he says, do you know William Faulkner? I said, we'll not personally, but I know is work and we start talking about Fulton, and it turns out, he was a big fan of William Faulkner has I so my decided, look, I if, if his English is perfect, then at least we won't lack for conversation as we're running around looking for where the story is. So I hired him and it was clear almost immediately that he was the person I should be following meds. Life story was in a way a microcosm for the story of Iraq. He was both a product of a ruthless dictatorship and a man who hoped for real democracy. Sure was born in Iraq in nineteen fifty one it was a time when the country was coming out of its colonial era, and he came from a Kurdish family, mud hut village, and his father, basically, was a middleman hunt showing the sale of sheep. You see this all over Iraq, even today. You guys bring up a flock of sheep. They stand on the on the street corner, and they sell it off people cheap low sheep. It was an extremely bright guy. And so he got a good education went to university got involved in student politics like a lot of us, who were in college in the late sixties, many different kinds of politics. It was an Arab nationalist, communist Kurdish-nationalist. He was looking for something. Something. He found was exploring ideas, particularly through writing and indicator ship writing about new ideas is a dangerous thing to do. His application was as a journalist and poet, but you can't make a living doing that. And the state trained him in the sciences. And ultimately graduated with an advanced degree in anatomy and became a lecturer was forced to do his part for the Iraqi state to despite his disdain for it. He fought in the Iraq, Iran war, but over time he became bolder about criticizing Saddam's dictatorship as Saddam's regime to cold and became more and more oppressive into radical. He got involved in underground, politics, and was arrested in number of times, tortured, and the only reason he lived long enough for me to meet him. Was that Saddam's regime loved money more than it loved, and his wife's family had money? So what they would do is they'd arrest him, they tortured. And then they let the. Wife know that she could have him back, but for a price. And on the third or fourth time this happened. They said, next time we won't ask for money. And so he fled Mosul for what was by then the Kurdish safe area about fifty miles away in her Bill. And that's where we met literally the night, the Iraq war started. Michael an awesome covered the war together the American journalists and the Iraqi fixer who also became a subject of Michael's reporting, we've became friends for a lot of reasons not just because of the intensity and intimacy of covering conflict. Not just because as the days went by, and it became clear that Saddam was going to be overthrown. He opened up. And then, as the days went by and the collapse of the regime came closer, his excitement, I began to feel it at the end to dente five with it when the regime fell in mostly was no fighting for really that the Iraqi army just ran away. And as the regime collapsed, there was a pulp, -able sense of two competing forces, the chaos of a dictatorship dying and the hope of those off Ned who wanted to see democracy. Tickets place. The day we heard that the regime had just vanished in the night, we got into our car, and we drove over and what I saw was, what happens when there is no authority. I mean it was the purest kind of honor cake. It was like a movie that we would driving fastest, we could because to stand still was actually dangerous. Everybody had run into the state regime buildings and look for their names. It was everybody was spying on everybody else. And they just wanted to destroy everything while they could older people were just walking around in days. And we went to his old street, and when he turned up, he saw some of his friends and remember he'd been a lecturer in anatomy. So I mean most of his friends were decks, and there's a little hugs, and whatever that are shouting. And I was left out of the circle. So I pulled him on the show going on. He said they think this is a trick of Saddam. They still don't believe that he has fallen. I put your standing here said this is what what he's called dictator ISM, does to the mind, they'd been under it for so long. They trusted nothing that was out of the ordinary, it was all the trick to draw them out of their shells. And then they would get arrested and tortured. But it wasn't a trick Saddam really was gone and Ahmed's dream of writing about the ideas that would shape the new arrack started to more from a far fetched fantasy into an achievable reality. So he met with a series of American officials and propose starting a magazine an NGO that could work for sustainable democracy in Iraq, and they gave him money for democracy, building activities, write a weekly paper, political and cultural ideas, say whatever you like your free now and he took it by the horns, and he made a lot of enemies. So he started this weekly magazine, and he called it Bolitho basically, it's an Arabic word, which means not directed and it was a double edged pun no direction. Nobody tells me what? Right. I'm not directed to ride. But also, it's the state of affairs in Iraq. We don't know what we're doing. But as med wrote passionately, and candidly, he also pissed a lot of people off he criticized the jihadi groups for tearing apart, the country, he criticized the Americans for not having a plan to rebuild it, and criticize the Saddam loyalists, the Ba'ath party people from the old regime who had nearly killed him before and about this new, who was because these to arrest him, and tortured him. He was not capable of discretion is another thing. We did come. And I mean it's not that I'm indiscreet, but it's like if I see something that I know is just untruthful. I'll say that may explain why. I have no pension that I can't afford. You know, I it's not a good way to be in life. He had no political. Now's at all. So by the autumn of two thousand three Michael had left Iraq Ahmed had made a lot of enemies but was still plowing ahead to make his dream come true his goal. And this is heartbreaking. He wanted to make a center for the study of democracy and call it Freedom House, and they did he opened up something called Freedom House. But by then, the offended so many people in his newspaper that only a handful came to the opening. That awesome. Michael off med chatted over the phone. Several times op-ed told Michael to be careful to look after himself, despite the fact that Michael was now out of a media danger and was in Saudi Arabia off med was still in one of the most dangerous places on earth. I said, don't worry about me. I'm fine. I'm good. So you take care of yourself, and he said to me what they can do to me else, because I could hear in his voice that he knew it wasn't working. You know what his view was look, I spent my whole life running away or hiding now. I'm supposed to be free. I'm gonna be free. That's it. I gonna be free. He took a very Muslim view on fatalism. If it's my time, then it's my time. So I'm Tober twenty eighth. Two thousand three off med was working at his NGO, working away on his newspaper when he received a phone call. What happened was? The newspaper office was in this building in the old city. You came in from the street the went through a kind of atrium area was really dingy up back staircase. And in the back there were a couple of rooms, and that was the office. Basically, it was just him a computer. And this guy who was his bodyguard driver, whatever. And he told everybody, I have really poor signal there on my phone. And after the war, the Americans were as quickly as they could to get some kind of functioning phone system. But really you needed to go up on the roof and use a satellite phone. This was before the mobile system was put in place. And so he would tell people look coal on the mobile, I get very small signal, but I'll hear it beep. And then I'll go up on the roof. So one day he's sitting in the office, and here's the beep. He goes off to the roof. And while he was searching, the clouds for good signal. Somebody came up on the roof behind him and shot him in the back. And. Then took the sim card out of his phone. They did that to try to cover their tracks. But in Michael's book, he played sleuth and tried to figure out who was behind the assassination of his friend, so who do. My guess is that it was his chauffeur. And he was told to buy this combination of Botha's and jihadis, regardless of who pulled the trigger off med. Didn't die right away after he was shot. He was still alive. They took him down from the roof. They put him in the back of a taxi. They sat in the backseat he'd been shot in the back, he knew he was bleeding to death. But Ahmed struggle to stay alive was no longer about jihadists or Ba'athists, dictators or democracy. It was about traffic, basically, you get two and a half cars down the road. If you have somebody parked on one side, and somebody parked on the other room for half a car in the middle. And so you see this. It's kind of it was, like watching grains of sound. I mean I went down there, the year later and it took us half an hour to go. You know, not even half a mile house is only two miles away, took them forty five minutes to get there. He was pretty much dead by the time they arrived. Michael found out that the assassination had happened by reading the news and the headlines that prominent journalist killed in northern Iraq. No name. But I knew exactly who it was. And then I read the articles, my fears were confirmed Michael wishes that he had done more to get off med to tread more carefully to perhaps. He's a bit of strategic silence. Every so often, at least until the chaos and the violence died down didn't have to be that way. He could have gone back to our Bill. I mean, our Bill is fifty miles away. He could put out the newspaper he could have just shut up people told him go back. Leave mosul. It's not safe. I should've spoken to him more firmly told him that his country didn't need his martyrdom his country needed him alive. And you should showed up for bid and then come back into the game but off met story is also a story of the risks that local journalists take, and how in Michael's view, the American government didn't do enough to protect those who risked their lives to help the United States. It wasn't assassination. It wasn't just a murder. We go home. They stay that's where the dangerous. When we go home people from the defeated sides, suppose the Baath assists, remember, who you worked for the Americans. And we know where you live and we know who your wife is a word your son lives, and they live with this threat all the time. So in local journalists put themselves in harm's way, while working for American media outlets. They often hope or expect that America will have their back, but they rely on America not to be a guarantor but to be in their corner in some way that's not true anymore. Ahmed struggled against dictatorship. He died trying to support democracy. And for off meds, wife, his death can be traced back to the old regime, the people who abducted and tortured him for ransom. She said to me, they made his life, a misery. And then they finally killed him. When you think of assoiation, most people don't think of journalists of JFK or ABRAHAM LINCOLN or it's tra-, being or Anwar Sadat, and the assassination of political leaders is unique in a way, because by studying them, we can get a better sense of how much leaders matter driving history. Hi, I'm Ben Jones, the gun to professor of entrepreneurship at the Kellogg school of management, that's at Northwestern University, just outside Chicago. And professor Jones has been studying assassination attempts as a sort of natural experiment because there's an element of randomness to it. So there's a remarkable case where someone threw a live hand grenade at Ugandan leader, idiom mean, the apparently bounced off his chest, and kind of fell into the crab nearby exploded Ideon survived. And of course, you know, a famous cases John F Kennedy who shot him moving vehicle. He's there with Texas. Governor, John Conley? Conley? Here's the first shot turns his head. He is shot as well. But, you know, the bullet travels through much of his body ricocheting, his collarbone ribs, narrowly misses his heart and survives. Reagan narrowly survives. He shot the bullet goes to his party vascular system easily could have killed him. So, you know, it seems like the random path of the bullet whether the grenade explodes are essentially random events and thinking about that randomness of whether an attempt is made or whether a leader survives. It means assassinations can be useful to try to understand bigger questions about history and social sciences. That is has nations. Don't matter, very strongly, the view that countries are driven by broader forces than their national leaders, and actually, the national leader is, is relatively incidental, or really, just a Representative of the social forces of their time and expression of those forces, not some kind of independent actor who can really personally shape the direction of most of social science in the twentieth century has really been about social forces history is driven by technological changes by the preferences of large blocks of people and much less so by the idiosyncratic personalities that are leading these individual countries. So my colleague, Ben can I set out to try to understand whether that's the right view or whether you know, leaders might actually matter, a lot to the path that their nations to understand whether the path of nations is fragile to the individual personalities in charge. Of course, one of the problems with studying assassinate. Ones. What works what doesn't and why they fail is that it could be used by would be assassins, to get better at them. But that's why Ben is quick to point out that assassinations usually fail with disastrous consequences for the would be assassin, you know, if you think about advising facets a big lesson from this study would be, don't try, it, most assassination attempts are failures that being said, Ben has figured out some key facts about assassination attempts and most attempts. Fall into two categories guns and bumps. Accommodate the us is a gun and another common thing to use explosive device bomb bombs likely to kill bystanders, but they are less likely to kill the leader while guns are more likely to kill leaders that even there it's not common usually you miss at a wet. You can imagine that the assassin you know, if you're gonna fire weapon, that's putting you great risk of being caught, because you have to be on the scene during these assoiation attempt. If you leave a bomb, you don't have to be so close. And so it protects the Azin in some sense from the immediately being caught. However, it's less accurate as a method. But the really interesting thing about assassinations is that they seem to have more than effect when they happened in certain types of countries, their research suggests that democratic systems systems that have separation of powers checks and balances and robust institutions assassinations affect the trajectory of country less than they do in a -tarian regimes. That makes sense when you think about it the more that power is concentrated in one. Person, the more likely it is that killing that person will change things and most of the time it ends badly for everyone involved, perhaps, Omar said it best on the HBO series, the wire, you come at the king, you best, not miss, what we do see those talker sees that, you know, whether or not you kill the leader. Next bigger talker sees whether so much more authority invested in that individual leader. They really matter. And so what, what you find is that when you try to kill a leader you fail. And you fell most of the time the leader's gonna respond by tightening their thority. So in an autocratic regime, it's gonna push leaders to a more thorough -tarian stance. So in a sense, it backfires, you try you fail in it backfires when you succeed, we do see that autocrats autocracies tend to have a much higher probability of, of democratizing of moving to democracy when the leader dies, but it's rare that, that actually happens because it's rare that you succeed in the end. It's a really risky move. Move and one that is most likely to end with the leader surviving. The assassin being jailed tortured killed and the country going further down the path of authoritarian brutality. So really what it was hasn't get they create risk, and they're just, you know, they're more likely to create a small move towards more thorough terrorism balanced against the some small chance of moving towards democracy. So in that sense, it's a very risky thing to do. That risk of backfiring was on display recently in Venezuela, when a new kind of SAS ination attempt emerged. No, mika. That's the sound of Venezuela's dictator Nikolai Madero, giving a speech at a military parade video of the event allows us to recreate what happened commercial drone, the kind that you or I could go out and buy with the click of a button flies into view, and hovers above the crowd with a boom it explodes in an orange and yellow fireball high above its intended target Madero looks up, apparently startled, and his bodyguards begin to shield him from public view at that point fourteen seconds after the first explosion, a second drunk crashes into a nearby building falls out of the sky and explodes on the ground. I'm only I'm a policy fellow at the European Council on foreign relations where I work on drones and other new technologies in warfare. Her work helps antiquated the kinds of threats that can be posed by drones. And this is the nation attempt. I'm Douro didn't come as much of a surprise to her. We saw for the first time the use of commercially available drones fitted with some type of explosive being used as a tool for a terrorist attack, or more. Specifically, a high value assassinations, as nation of a political figure these kinds of attacks are something that a lot of researchers, including me have been expecting for quite a while. Remember what Ben Jones said before about bomb and gun attacks. Well, this is a new frontier of bomb attacks. That makes them more likely to succeed because you can pilot the bomb to its destination you start to Drome you fly the drone and you don't meet direct line of side, because you see what the drowsy so you can really fly near. Whoever you are targeting or trying to find the best target of opportunity while not actually seeing it yourself. These kinds of attacks are also worrying in how simple they are to attempt. But of course, it's also easy to screw it up flying drone relatively easy. But then again, it's also really easy to crash it. One of the first time I flew, my drone, I immediately into an apple tree, if there's a gush of wind. It's getting hard to steer. Ricca has to think carefully about what she discusses about her research because even though it's obvious that the sort of nightmare scenarios that she considers on a daily basis are important to think about. It's also obvious that discussing them to publicly could give would be assassins terrorists new ideas, you know, there's actually a discussion within the research community to what extent we should even suggest. What kind of scary things you can do with drones? I'm not gonna go into too much detail, but beyond the ethical concerns. There's also a level of uncertainty around this attack through. History. Dictators have been known to us security threats to the president as a pretext to crackdown on opposition. And while there's no clear evidence, either way, some serious, people have raised the possibility that the sheer incompetence of this attack with one drone blowing up high above the crowd and the other hitting a building and blowing up on the ground makes it more likely that this was staged. Thal Slava tax usually are great wage relative troops behind you. And so the reason why we thinking that this could have been a full flag, mainly is that it was so badly done. And so on successful, the Venezuelan I think interior ministry sats that they actually jammed the drones. That was the reason why the attack didn't succeed now as possible to JEM drones a little countries are working with those kind of thing, but this was a was a political rally somewhere in, in Caracas, and I personally would be really surprised to learn that the Venezuelan president troubles with drum jams all the time. So, again, this can be possible could be possible, but these elements make it feel almost too easy. It was too easy to fight back to attack the tech didn't succeed, so that could suggest that it wasn't deflect. Let's just assume this was a genuine attack for the purposes of the argument, what can be done about these kinds of attacks after all drones are new technology. They're cheap and they're pretty widespread. Maybe we are better equipped for them to be used as toys in a park, but were not yet ready for the risks that come with them being used as weapons for his ass nations. What do you do if a drone is flying? The president as anti Joan technology goes, I love the eagles. The eagles have been used by both the Dutch and the French police forces. And these are like actual eagles, births that have been trained to take down, you know, smaller hobbyist drones wrote drones kind of that. You and I by of Amazonian fly in a park, in fact that hasn't been successful as was hoped for numerous reasons. So they're bunch of other anti-drunk acknowledges that are being developed an already being used. Okay. So we can't just sit around and wait for the eagles to save us. So what else is on the table, the first kind of. Basket of possibilities to fight drones Connectik in that shooting down. Drones. That is actually not as the full Colt as you may think, especially when you thinking like shotgun type ammunition a drone close enough, you can shoot down on we've seen numerous cases of that in Iraq and Syria. But of course, you know, you can't be shooting in the year again, in central London was something like that. So that's not a system that works everywhere. And there's always an issue, of course, the -pective nece, because if you shut gone that works that's great. But some countries have had to use missiles, major missiles, sometimes shot from aircraft and you don't wanna have an f sixteen go up every time you see a drought shoot it down with a missile. So the Connecticut solution is possible in some circumstances, but not everywhere if you can't shoot it down and the eagles can't grab it in their talents. The maybe the next best thing is to try to jam the drone using electron equipment to take it down. So I. The idea is to jam the signal between the whoever's piloting drone the drone so that the drone was a signal and basically just hovers conto anything anymore or even take over the drums, take over the control of the drone then landed somewhere fly flied away. Of course, jamming comes with risks to, like, what else are you going to jam when you're trying to just focus on the drone quite often, if you gem signals you also jam the signals, and you don't wanna be jamming all of the wifi signal mobile phone signal in central, but maybe just maybe the machines will save us from themselves. Could we get some drones to turn on their brethren and attack their own kind? Instead, they're the news from Japan. I think Japan uses drones that carry nets that they send to basically catch other drugs, which, you know, seems to be working relatively well as well. But it is really difficult to square the circle of having something that down. Thanks to drone safely that is mobile enough for you to use it. You know, again, at a political rally, protecting a high level politician, something like that. And that is, you know, cheap enough and can be used in numerous times. We've come a long way from euros collapsing ceilings to drones loaded with c four plastic explosives. But the attempt on Medeiros not likely to be the last of its kind drones are here to stay and we'll need to have a debate about how to balance the fun. They bring a fly in them in a park with the risks they can bring to public safety and security of our leaders. It's also worth acknowledging that the West's hands are not clean when it comes to the twisted world of assassinations. Western governments have used targeted killings to advance geopolitical goals. Many times throughout history. And that tactic was particularly prominent during the Cold War when the United States and its NATO allies tended to see the globe, like a chessboard with pond in the third world the needed to keep from being taken over by the Soviet grandmasters. Would you victory? Patrice Lumumba and African nationalist, who rose to prominence as an advocate for national independence and self-determination in the colony of the Belgian Congo in central Africa, the colony which was affectively, the personal five dumb, and brutalises. Playground for king. Leopold of Belgium was transformed into a rubber producing machine and king Leopold ruled at like a ruthless tyrant. The Belgian Congo was where some of the worst atrocities of the colonial era were carried out. So it's perhaps unsurprising that figures like Lumumba were eager to chart their own path was. Long no rates by many Africans. And polluting a large segment of population of the Congo. Although at the same time, he was also hated more fiercely by many Africans feared his very intense nationalism that he developed that's Bruce coup. Click an emeritus professor of history of the university of Pennsylvania and the co author of death in the Congo murdering Patrice Lumumba when you hear recordings of woman doing speeches you can sense the fire of the lying, and his ability to communicate not only with the locals with lack population of Congo. But he also could hit a nerve with the colonialist that is the imperialist could see right away that this was a guy who would be fear, because he had a way with words that. Was just extrordinary in this period, Lumumba's or a Tory earned him a large following, and he began to be a powerful political player, and he rose to prominence even more as the Belgian Congo became independent changing its name to the Republic of the Congo in nineteen sixty Belgium's were forced to give up this jewel in their imperial, crown of this huge country in the center of Africa known at the time as the Belgian Congo, and shortly after the fledgling country obtained independence. Patrice Lumumba was elected as the prime minister in the first and arguably the only democratic election that has ever taken place in the country. And for the Limbaugh inauguration, the king of Belgium comes down to the Congo to make a speech, a speech that doesn't go down super well with the Congolese people or with Lumuma who sees it as extremely patronizing and condescending during this period he is so enraged by the condescension of the king that he rewrite his own acceptance speech, and then the nounce is an eloquent, French Belgians, and the role in the Congo and speaks of the future, the Mumba speech, infuriated, the king who threatened to leave at once it infuriated, other western colonial powers to who were clean onto the narrative that colonialism was a benevolent gift to Africa and Lumumba threatened that narrative, so that speech in a way set in motion series of events that prompted Belgium's government and other western powers to get rid of a Mumba once and for all. At the same time, because the Belgians had arranged the colonial system to only work with them in charge when they withdrew the country fell into chaotic dysfunction. What happens is that the country goes into collapse. I mean, you know, there's no electricity. There's no plumbing there. There are no police the Belgians use that chaos as a pretext to try to reassert themselves to try to make the case that they were truly necessary and should be brought back to rule once again, we're Munda is effectively deposed as prime minister. He's put on your house arrest at the time the American government didn't care that much about the Congo, it wasn't really even on their radar screen. This is the last year of the is now our administration, the United States these guys are not interested in Africa at all. No idea of even where the Congo is or who should be there or who runs the United States cared about the Cold War, and they were. Read that as the Congo's leadership went from white to black, the pond piece on the global American Soviet chessboard would switch sides to Lumumba was a danger for both the condo and the rest of the world in the sense that he was allowing the Soviets to come in. And we were certainly believed that was very good chance that they would take over control of the Congo. That's Larry Devlin, who was the CIA station chief based in the Congo at the time and for Devlin and the American government, it wasn't just about the risk of Soviet influence in the Congo. It was also about a geopolitical struggle within the west to strengthen NATO and for that Belgium was an important player in the eyes of the American administration. It's better to have your leadership in your come from Belgium, and how an even wassenberg than it is Africa. Come from France, Germany, or England. Want the small countries, one year side Belgium is a crucial member of NATO. Belgium, wanted American backing in the Congo an American help to get rid of a Mumba who they size of threat to their core interests in the country. So on top of American fears that the Soviet Union would control the Congo the Belgian government also issues threats to undermine NATO, if the American government doesn't take action and what you see is that fear that NATO will be undermined really disturbs the United States, and that point that the national Security Council does a u turn about the Congo. So at this point a series of assassination, plots are developed, some of them are a bit outlandish including one in which Larry Devlin that CIA station chief was given a tube of poison toothpaste to slip into mambas private residence in the hopes that he would brush his teeth and died. But the didn't quite do their homework with that one Congolese people at the time, didn't use toothbrushes toothpaste. They would clean their teeth with some kind of palm leaf, sort of hopper rightous overall. If you look. At the C I A maneuvers. It's like a keystone cops comedy. These guys are inefficient. They're not competent. They're incapable of one of the guys that they send out there to kill the Mumbai had a reputation as a lazy alcoholic, and when he gets to the Congo, what he does is to go to the chief, Dr in the capital and set up his life. They're drinking all day wall. But like Niro before the Belgians, eventually gave up with the elaborate schemes just arrested Lumumba strapped him into an airplane, flew to Elizabethville and brutally beat him and tortured him along with two associates. A few hours later. They were driven to an isolated area far away from any potential witnesses and lined up in front of a firing squad. One by one. They were put in front of a tree, and shot. The Belgian report coldly noted their time of death at between nine forty nine forty three pm. But that wasn't enough. They wanted to make sure that no gravesite would ever become a site of martyrdom for lumber and they dissolve them and hydrochloric acid. This is a procedure that takes a couple of days. What it means is that there, nobody's left, there's no place that people can go to say this is where it happened. This is the place that will become forever sacred to people looking to African nationalism. Lumumba's death, eventually pave the way for the reign of Mobutu say seco-, one of the most ruthless most corrupt dictators and African history. But he delivered what the American government wanted most a warm relationship with the west and a frosty relationship with the Soviet Union. Assassinations highlight how many people people who often just want to help their countries improve their countries, just get a little bit better and getting killed, and pursuit of ambition, and it's hard not to wonder how much better, the world might be if people like med or John F Kennedy were still alive, and that's the tragedy of assassinations. We'll never truly know what we lost. We're going to close today show on a more light hearted note with an assassination attempt from American history. But one that you probably know a lot less about not Lincoln or JFK, or Martin Luther King junior. This one is about an attempt to kill TR teddy Roosevelt. I am. Stacey Corey, a professor of history at that university in Ames Iowa. Stacy is an expert on the gilded age and the progressive era and she's written a series of fantastic books. One about Juliette, Gordon low the founder of the girl scouts one about Alice Roosevelt Longworth, and to about TR himself. Theodore Roosevelt, and you can tell him immediately. When you talk to Stacey not only that she knows her stuff, but that she's fascinated by Roosevelt. And so she's going to walk us through the events that led up to one of the most singularly bad ass moments in American history, just over one hundred years ago in nineteen twelve Theodore Roosevelt was absolutely America's most famous person by nineteen twelve. He was known around the globe. He was famous in Europe. He could pack auditoriums in every city in the United States of America. He was charismatic. He was known for not just his political ideas, but for the amazing life you lead he'd been an explore. He was a big game hunter. He was an author, he could speak to anyone on any topic. He had a near photographic memory. He was amazing in all kinds of ways. But. No, before I won't be thinking. The American people to govern themselves to rule themselves to. I believe. That's Roosevelt's voice speaking about his faith in American democracy. And it made sense that he had faith in the voters by nineteen twelve Roosevelt had already been president for nearly two terms been there done that Theodore Roosevelt, assume the presidency in nineteen. Oh, one after president McKinley had been assassinated. And so he governed from nineteen to one until nineteen o nine when his handpicked successor William Howard Taft took over. So we had all those years of, of Roosevelt, almost two full terms of Roosevelt and at the time, he had pledged that he would only serve those two terms he went before the public and made a pledge, and he said, he would honor the wise traditions, that by George Washington and serve only two terms. So he counted mckinlay's term as his own first term. What he regret making that statement? But when the nineteen twelve presidential election came into view, Roosevelt, changed, his tune Roosevelt, said that has that was in the ring, and he wanted to be the Republican nominee for president again. And when that didn't work out, he simply decided to form a new party. So he chose to both the party and he formed his own party. A third party call the Progressive Party nicknamed, the bull moose party was called the bull moose party because once was said to him. Hey, how're you feeling Colonel and he said as fit as a bull, moose, but for some Americans that decision was a betrayal of his earlier pledge not to seek a third term? John shrank was just one of many Americans who were deeply unhappy with Roselle for that. Jon Flemming shrank was born in Bismarck's, Germany in eighteen seventy six and he emigrated to America when he was nine years old. He drifted around a lot. He didn't have a steady job, shrank wrote a missive describing why this third term was so terrible. Also, it's probably worth mentioning here that shrank may or may not have been insane. But there was something else. Back on the fifty September in nineteen. Oh, one one day after McKinley. Died shrank had had a dream and his dream, he was standing over mckinlay's dead body, but then shrank watched as McKinley sat up in his coffin and pointed to a corner of the room. There was a shadowy someone in the corner in amongst robe, and shrank assumed, it would be mckinlay's murderer. But it wasn't. It was Theodore Roosevelt. And shrink. Listen, while the dead McKinley said to him, this is my murderer and nobody else of vengeance. My death. Then eleven years later to the day on the fifteenth of September nineteen twelve mckinlay's ghost returned to shrink in another dream event time, the ghost, apparently told shrank not let Roosevelt's sit on the president's chair, all of this is totally wacko, of course because Roosevelt didn't kill McKinley. But trank thought it made sense. And he decided to act on it. So strengh packed a suitcase gather some money and set out to find TR and avenge mckinlay's death. The first of course he had to buy gun. So he in New York City found a gun shop and found in the gun shop, a fourteen dollar Colt thirty eight pistol. He wanted to buy trick tried to buy the gun. He was asked for a permit and he didn't have one. And so the clerk at the gun store, said, oh, well, that's okay. I'll just remove this tiny, screw from the pistol. So the trigger won't work, but of course, strength wants a pistol, we're the trigger will work so strike the idea to show the clerk his ticket, because he said, look, I'm leaving the state of New York today. Anyway, here's my ticket seats dated. And at this point the clerk in the gun. Shop said, oh, well, that's fine. And he sold them the gun no permit. So now with the knowledge that the ghost was on his side, determined to stop teddy Roosevelt, from serving a third term, and quipped with a pistol shrank sets off to find and murder, the former president of the United States back on the campaign trail. It will take shrink about a month to track Roosevelt, down shrank will travel from New York to Charleston than to Atlanta to Birmingham. Back to Atlanta to Chattanooga to Evansville, Indiana to Chicago and finally shrank will get to Milwaukee on October fourteenth. Roosevelt was planning to hang out in his private train away from all the adoring crowds. But he gets persuaded to go have dinner at a hotel in Milwaukee. So he goes to the hotel, guilt. Patrick, which is today, the Hyatt Regency. So they have dinner there and it runs a bit late. But finally, to the delight of the crowd teddy Roosevelt, emerges, and decides to address the frenzied mass of supporters, it was eight ten pm. He had just gotten into the car to the cheers of a large crowd around him. So Roosevelt rose to acknowledge the people there waved his hat. And for one moment he was silhouetted against the streetlight. So from ten feet away shrank aimed, and as he was firing somebody in the crowd guy named Frank Buczkowski saw the gun and bumps rank. One of men guy named Elbert Martin who has historiographer. But wait. He was also a former football player saw the gun and leapt into the crowd, and on top of shrank, pinning him and making sure that shrank didn't get off a second shot Roosevelt, who was a hunter after all a soldier checked to see that he was not bleeding from the mouth, and once he found he was not bleeding from the mouth. He told the driver to take him to the Milwaukee auditorium, as a regionally planned. Yep. You heard that, right. He had just been shot in the chest with an actual bullet, and he just sort of shrugged and went off to make a campaign speech. And when he got there and began to deliver his speech, he uttered, one of the best lines in the history of American politics. I don't know whether you fully understand that I had been shot, but it takes more than that, to kill a bull moose. And then he spoke for ninety minutes. The toughness was absolutely part of Roosevelt's cultivated personal persona in Minnesota, where I'm from we have a saying and how to cope with the subzero temperatures that are common in winter, where a lot of layers, and Roosevelt seem to have taken that lesson to heart a lesson that may have saved his life. The bullet went through his heavy winter overcoat one hundred pages of paper because his speech was fifty pages long in folded in half. It went through his medal glasses case both running back. It went through his doubly folded suspenders, then it went through a suit coat his vest, his dress shirt in his woolen undershirt. Eight layers. It went through eight layers. Of course, Roosevelt went on to lose the nineteen twelve election. Woodrow Wilson was elected. So you might think that shrank felt pretty good about having accomplished his goal to ensure that nobody would serve a third term in the United States, and certainly not a Roosevelt shrank was found insane by a panel of five alienist or psychiatrist. And so the Milwaukee municipal court judge said, we're not gonna put you in jail, then we're gonna put you in the Saint asylum. So he lived out the rest of his life in an insane asylum in Wisconsin and strength died three years into Franklin Roosevelt's third, presidential term. From Niro, and I repeat to Maduro and drones assassinations have been a feature of human history. They have been used to topple tyrants. But also to kill fantastic and promising young leaders to silence brave journalists whose only crime was to tell the truth, we can, and should do our best to give public figures face violent threats, the protection that they need particularly democratic states. We also need to agree that the only acceptable way to remove somebody that we don't like from power is with ballots. Not bullets. Thanks. If you like the show, please rate, a review at wherever you listen to podcasts, and please tell your friends about it, too. It really helps more people. Find out about the show. This is written a narrative by me. Brian Close the executive producer was, George mcdonagh, Alex port Felix was the producer and sound editor. Theme music by Scott homes, next up, we're going to look the inner workings of the death penalty through the lens of someone unique. She's witness more executions in the United States than any other woman on the planet, roughly two hundred eighty times she watched and witnessed as an inmate was put to death, but a state of Texas had they just been able to file something that would have let him hang on for a little bit longer that he'd be alive today. Don't miss it goodbye. For now.

Iraq Theodore Roosevelt United States Michael Goldfarb president Congo Iraq Ahmed Niro John F. Kennedy Saddam Agra Pena Texas murder venezuela Agra Pena Patrice Lumumba America Belgium Caracas Mosul
Monday 11 February

Monocle 24: The Briefing

29:47 min | 2 years ago

Monday 11 February

"You are listening to the briefing. First broadcast on the eleventh of February two thousand nineteen article twenty form. Hello and welcome to the briefing coming to you live from studio one here. It's Batori house in London. I'm markus. He'd been coming up on today's program. This is a corrupt administration the most corrupt administration in living memory, and that we're going to insist on some accountability not get distracted and pulled off somewhere else. The Democrats Elizabeth, Warren assists. She wants to face Donald Trump in twenty twenty. We lost square that she has what it takes to become president. Plus, the UK signs a trade deal with Switzerland. But they're being to lethal procuress on economic agreements from Britain Scudder moments also. Feast reindeer reaches an agreements to buy French submarines, and we'll find out why motorists than ever before flocking to Laplante all thus right here on the briefing with me, eight pimp. Amy global Sharon to Elizabeth Warren have both throwing their hats into the ring to face Donald Trump in the twenty twenty US presidential election. I'm joined in the studio by the veteran US political commentator, Michael Goldfarb, Michael welcome to the program. So he started with a look at the situation the US democratic parties finding itself in at the moment. There is a lot of pressure to find someone who can stand up against Donald Trump. Well, I don't know who's putting the pressure on. Yeah. I mean, there's pressure to find someone to stand up against Donald Trump. The question is how is it being applied because everybody and his sister seems to be putting their hat in the ring as we say in America during the hat in the ring, I could be president is Huckabee president, and we already have, you know, eight nine ten people, and he think well, you can't be president. And it is only February of twenty nineteen the primaries don't start for another eleven months. Months? It's quickly. I wonder why everyone's so quick to get out there. What do you think? Why is that? Well, I don't know. I mean, I think two things one is that in two thousand sixteen Barak. Obama was finishing his second term and Hillary Clinton had expressed a very strong desire to run. And I think the field was pretty much cleared out for her and late in the late in the years. There wasn't this kind of competition late late in the game. Bernie Sanders wants Elizabeth Warren decided she wouldn't challenge Hillary from the left. So well, somebody's got at least put forward a case for more left wing Democratic Party. Anyway, so Hillary was cleared in and basically she was comped as as you would say to the presidency to the presidential nomination rather. And this time around they've decided nobody has a comp no one is a front runner. So everybody's giving it a shout and. And you have a field of some very competent potentially presidential people. I just think that they're missing a whole year of real politics in Washington because they're going to be busy running for the democratic nomination next year at the same time DC something positive in this situation considering that I guess the public the white public gets to learn very early on who walk into be running. Well, this I suppose it's a possibility. But let's look at the Republicans in in twenty fifteen twenty fifteen is the analogous here to twenty nine by the end of the year, they had close with they had seventeen people running for the presidential nomination. One of whom was Donald Trump. He was the one person who needed a lot of publicity because he'd never been in politics to be considered to be thought of in the presidential framework. The other fifteen sixteen people were people who'd been in politics a lifetime. And he cleared them out in about six weeks. Because he was so new and fresh now there isn't a new and fresh face in this group of people, they are all you know, politicians. Most of them are in the Senate Amy klobuchar who you mentioned in your intro. It has with Warren's been there for a couple of terms Kamla Harris from California Cory Booker, the former mayor of Newark, I think is now in the Senate. I mean, all of these people have been there and are serving senators, and they actually have a real job in front of them. But that's not I guess the way American politics work anymore. Well, those names we know so far who have thrown their hats into the ring. Do they have what it takes to stunned up against Donald Trump? Well, I think quite a few of them to actually I mean, you have to understand that at this point in his presidency. Donald Trump is basically down to his core group. Thirty five percent thirty five to thirty eight percent of of the electorate that will never leave him. So, you know, the the swing voters such as they are in particularly the old industrial states. And this is the story doesn't change in America, much, Ohio, Michigan Wisconsin who flipped from voting for Barack Obama to voting for Donald Trump are still in play. And there are candidates who will appeal to them what I think it will dominate certainly the punditry and the analysis of the mainstream media in America will be you know, centrist, Democrats versus those who were seen as being much more left wing. Like, Elizabeth Warren like Bernie Sanders who hasn't said, I'm not running Beto Rourke who hasn't said he's running, but who can call on a massive army of small donors who backed him in his Senate race who liked the way he's speaks. Kamala Harris has had a very good run. She made a real name for herself. On the judiciary committee questioning Brett Cavanaugh the supreme court nominee back last in the autumn. So I know that there are there are people. The thing is that there's too many people. And I think that the reason that they're all out there is goes back to money because money is now basically unlimited in America. And there's a lot of rich people who want to play the game they will back any candidate just to get their phone calls returned. How you what do you think? How well does those is to affronting for president work at the moment them? But I think I don't like it. I mean, if you if you think you end up with Donald Trump, you'd have to say gotta find a new system in some way. No, I think that. And this is just guessing because there are so many people who get their drive their income from running campaigns. They come into the arena, they come into the marketplace and say, look you have to start running a year and a half out from the nominating process. Otherwise, you don't stand a chance. So a lot of people who have in the back of their minds the thought, well, you know, I could I could do it. I mean, the democratic field is wide open, which is actually quite a good thing. And then you get a professional comes and says, well, it's January twenty nineteen. But if you aren't solid by the autumn, you'll never get a look in the primaries. So here you have a Senator got important work to do right in front of him or her. But he's listening to the guys paying a retainer to who says well, you better get into the game now and those so suddenly that's what they're doing. And I think that in that respect so long as there's that much money, and so many people earning good money out of advising candidates, then you're going to have this. And I you know, who knows in twenty twenty four you could end up with people declaring. In twenty twenty one thing I'm going to wreck for president. Takes three years to raise the money. I don't know. Just what do you think looking ahead to twenty twenty? Well, what would you think are going to be the frontier runners of the Democratic Party will I honestly think if Elizabeth Warren can overcome this blip. She's been claiming for years to be tap native, American blood and pretty clearly she doesn't and and and the Republicans are going to beat up on her on about that. I'd say, you know, who was the real front runner. Elizabeth Warren said this morning in response to Trump beating up on her that she wasn't even sure should be facing Trump and twenty twenty he may be otherwise engaged meaning in some kind of legal process. I think she may be onto something there. I think that whoever in this year of twenty nine thousand nine when Donald Trump is extremely vulnerable to a lot of legal stuff. That's going to come out over the next six months. Whoever makes the best impression. In televised hearings from the Senate or from the house of representatives will launch into the conversation. People are well out in front of their skis. I know you ski Marcus. So they're well out in front of their skis at this moment and people who are listening should remember that Michael Goldfarb? Thank you very much for joining us here in the briefing. It is twenty Twen ten in Hong Kong, forty intending. Helsinki twelve ten here in London and seventeen AM in New York City. Let's now continue with the latest business news the UK assigned a post Brexit trade deal with Switzerland. UN puts joins us from Bloomberg you and housing -nificant is this deal. Yeah. The UK has reached an agreement with Switzerland that will allow it to continue to trade without additional tariffs after it leaves the European Union. Now, the deal means the countries can avoid having to trade under WTO World Trade Organization terms. It also eliminates the vast majority of duties on goods traded between the UK and Switzerland. Critics have been quite a a tough on the UK tough on Liam Fox about progress made on trade deal saying the progress has been way too slow so far have been signed with Chile Israel. And that's. Mammoth of the global economy the Faeroe Islands. This is the biggest deal so far though Switzerland's the UK is tenth biggest trade partner and just under thirty three billion dollars a trade done between the two countries in twenty seventeen Liam Fox, the UK's industrial straight has been leaving process of trying to roll over e- you deals with countries around the world marrying or marrying that terms in new agreements for the UK. He's got about forty these agreements covering trade with seventy one different countries, which needs to be rolled over better progress seems to have been pretty slow so far. And it's unlikely that many these are going to be completed by March the twenty ninth. Well, you and could you bring us to up to day with the UK's Brexit negotiations? Where exactly are we now? Yeah. Less than six weeks until the UK. It leaves a UN. Theresa May has been trying to buy us off more time for her renegotiations with Brussels. She's been reaching out to the. Opposition labor party, the she wrote the to Jeremy Corbyn. He's proposed a twenty six February deadline for another vote in the UK parliament, assuming that Theresa May have something substantial to bring back to the parliaments. Theresa May questioning Jeremy wins demand for a permanent and comprehensive UK wide customs union with the EU he also wants as well as customs union. He wants a future say on European trade deals. She's questioned that. But she didn't entirely reject it that leaves with a little bit of room for maneuver, but it does risk enraging probe exit members of the conservative party. There's also been some trouble for Jeremy Corbyn in the labor party. It's reported that the letter he sends a Theresa May have been signed off by his Brexit spokesperson kiss Starmer about apparently was tweaked the last moments removing reference to a possible second referendum so both parties having a bit of Brexit. Trouble at the moment, and it has some breath. Exit trouble for the UK economy as well. This data out this morning show that the UK unexpectedly shrank in November. So in December by North Point four percents. Economists had expected the economy to be flat in December. So this slowdown looks like it's coming partly from businesses cutting investments consumer spending seems to be holding up. But busy getting something of the Brexit jitters. A thank you very much for that. And that was Bloomberg's UN pulled sent now here is what else we are keeping an eye on today. Topa military chief says the United States is just weeks away from beginning. The withdrawal of troops from Syria. General Joseph votes who oversees U S forces in the Middle East added that the timing rested on the situation in Syria where the US entourage allies have launched an assault against Islamic state militants football player whose detention in Thailand sparks an international outcry has been freed from jail after Bahrain withdrew its extradition request Hakim, I'll our be who is from baharan fled to a stray lean two thousand fourteen and to a scrawny his political asylum. He has been held in Bangkok since November at Bahrain's request. And as we have been hearing, the democratic Senator Amy klobuchar has announced that she is running for president in the twenty twenty election, the former prosecutor one praise for questioning of the supreme court Justice Brad Kavanagh during a recent confirmation hearing. Global jar enters a crowded field of democratic candidates. This is the briefing on monocle twenty four. The Australian government signed a major submarine deal with FRANZ. Let's get more on this with Karen Middleton at the Saturday paper. Karen, Australia is going to pay about fifty billion Australian dollars for twelve new military submarines how controversial has this steel beam? Well, these deals being about two years in the works. It was actually agreed in two thousand sixteen almost three years ago. There was a ten to process involving international bidders, Japan and Germany also bid for the submarines, but it was a French company that ultimately won them. It has been controversial because the astride in government put a lot of conditions on these contracts, particularly that the submarines had to be built in a strike Leah. Now, we don't have a sovereign shipbuilding industry in a strenuous. We've we've we've tried and had struggled a little, and so this is going to involve training and skilling up a starting workers to be able to build the submarines here in future war executives Australia, New submarines for. Well, the prime minister makes the point where an island nation where in part of the world where there are a number of potential flashpoints and that it's important to be able to patrol Aaron borders into. Fought on the oceans if necessary so he's a talking up. The fact that has journalists investing quite heavily in military hardware on the seas. There's also a new frigates program with thirty five billion dollars striving goal is being spent on new ships, and I will be built by the British. But in the case of the submarines as I say, it's the French, and they will some unhappiness, but tickly Japan that it was passed over for the submarine deal. When it thought it was going to secure it. So there's been some controversy some internationally diplomatically as well as the issue at harm about where that being built in the state of South Australia, and whether or not that was focused mostly on diplomatic on domestic politics onto onto what were the factors leading to the decision to actually buy those submarines from pros. Well, they decided that this design was the most applicable to astray Leah's military flake that they replacing some Collins class submarines that are in service at the moment have been for some years, but they have been troubles with the Collins class. I were plagued with we problems as well. And the one I guess biggest controversy about the design is that a strategy does not have nuclear powered vessels started continues to decline to have nuclear powered vessels and submarines were originally designed to be nuclear powered. So they have to be adapted and the minute. You start updating designs the cost goes up. So the controversy now aside from the tensions are how the tenders was were chosen and let ease the potential for cost blowout and for these to take a lot longer than they should. And we may see that. We don't get these submarines when we're expecting them Iran twenty thirty you mentioned already that submarines will actually be built himself, Australia hosting. Isn't that for area? Well, it's particularly important because South Australia's manufacturing industry has declined in recent years. It had a one stage a long time ago, a thriving car industry, but come is gradually have moved off shore, and that industry's had to close down and a lot of work that were in manufacturing there. I've had to look for other would. So the suggestion that there would now be shipbuilding industry might mean that some of those skills can be transferred on a larger scale, obviously to sheep building. And that the government the coalition government is hoping that that's going to translate to domestic political support where they're in a state where there are a little seats up for grabs. Entities an election year. So the government is hoping that it will do well out of that decision to make sure they're manufactured in South Australia. Holwell we'll still hold much will improve relations between Australian froze. Well, it seems to be pretty significant. It's a fifty billion dollar deal sterling dollar deal as you mentioned. And it is the prime minister in sauna miss agreement tonight was talking about the strong ties, and that this is the most significant corporation between the strategy and France since World War Two, and that that basis is a very important project to ustralia the beginnings of the manufacturing of the early stages of being done in France. But then then we transferred to a stroller into China starlings in net she building skill. So he is very much talking the relationship between Shirley in France and the the importance of that collaboration. Sorry back to the first World War. Not even the second mobile all for the back. So an important important stick between Australia and France on. What is the expected timeframe just finally went obvious new submarines come into being used? There was supposed to be being built by twenty thirty. But those who are skeptical about the timeframe in the capacity to do that A suggesting we might not see them coming that soon. And we may we'll be paying a lot more for them than we initially said, we would say there is some question Mark over the timeframe we met say them for a little while longer than that terror Middleton. Thank you very much. It's twenty minutes past the hour. You're listening to the briefing. We continue with the review some of today's newspapers. Now, I'm joined in the studio by monocle in our good afternoon. How are you today? Very good, Marcus. I have some good stories for you. Let starting full it some Paulo in Brazil, actually, the story chose the editorial of today, which is talking about the city of real and how in only two days markers. The city had three tragedies and the fully Dettori saying that all of them was mainly because of the inefficiency of the state, and I'm going to tell you which ones within there was I think there was a lot of rain in the days ago, where seven people died around the city, we also had a police peration in Favila in real where fourteen people had died of being one of the most deadly police oppressions. And finally, of course, the fire at the football training ground in Flamingo. So I mean, a lot of people say share those are tragedies. But then what they're saying here. No, especially the local. Government in Rio has been quite handled in a way, you know, the finances. So there's there's a problem here the state, so what exactly we made to change? Well, so many things are when you have a city where in the four of of the last five governors. They are either arrested or they have been accused of corruption. You see the little bit of an endemic problem in the city is very hard for the solution for that. That was your peak form fully Dessau Paulo. We continue with the Los Angeles Times. The next exactly is the main stories, of course, the Grammys that happened in the city last night. And again, I think the main focus of the of the awards was a fantastic year for female artist as you remember markers? Lest you was terrible. There's been a lot of criticism because of just being very very few female artists. They have been omitted the even have a little quote here. From the leash aquis apparently in two thousand five she was nominated for best song of the year. But then she lost John Mayer and actually Joe Marissa. Meyer said, you know, what I'm gonna give you half of my crime. And apparently he did. So would you give away half of your crummy? I generally Fink he cut his grandma in half and gave it to her. But, but I think she mentioned I women don't need how Grammy these days, especially this year's when Casey must grapes called the album of the year. We are excellent. Our golden hour, which makes his country and psychedelic as well. And have do a leap ahead. So many was very good. Grammy's actually say is a bit of a tired show, but this year it impress me little bit. What had changed? Well, I think that there's been more fun being a bit more open to New Jersey of music. It's a little bit. You know, less tired and a bit more open to what's happening though. The music today too. We have news from the UK next us you're holding the David telegraph more awards north as fans the Grammys with the Baptist happen happened yesterday. The only good thing as you can see there's a massive picture of leave your Komen should go the best actress award for her role in the favorite which have to say is the favorite of. I knows a lame joke not as lame as journalists jokes yesterday, which were felt quite flat. So the the award itself was quite boring, but it was very happy. The favourite gotta believe seven wards didn't win best film, though, Marcus there was Roma from from Sequeira on do you like buffed us in general to find them? Interesting every year. I mean, it is an important war. I'm not going to deny that. But I think little changes here and there, for example, no need for Cirque du Soleil to start the show. I mean this quite boring. I mean, you start to show and you just want to go to leave. What should they start with instead of Cirque du Soleil, a nice a nice stand up monologue from the host? Of course, they might change the script writers, you know, to get a little bit funnier, but a little bit puncher, Markus. That's my tip. Great feedback from our own fan. Lonzo gupta. Thank you very much. And finally today's program we're crossing over to Finland's Lapland is more popular with tourists than at any time in its history, Monaco sales correspondent Petrie also has most Petrie. Welcome to the program successful. We do have new figures. Now, they have been released. What do they tell us? Yes. Hi markets. So for the first time ever, the number of hotel stays in Lapland surpassed three million per year. Which is yes, it's an all time record. And a lot of that growth actually comes from foreign tourism the biggest tourist markets for planned are are the UK and France. And of course, a lot of tourists consul upland also because a fee Nares Asia strategy, so so they vote focused heavily on on bringing Chinese and Japanese and Korean tour to Europe and then on their way to Europe they sort of went to spend a couple of days in Finland. Lapland the growth of tourism in Finnish Lapland us being quite a success story there spaying a massive increase in in figures in the last say ten years. What do you think is behind this cries? I think it's first of all they've done an excellent job of on marketing. They've spent a lot on that. And they've also spend a lot on kind of new forms of marketing they brought brought in a lot of social media influencers. And also a lot of big names liberties, the Beckham's, leeann messy and the likes have spent their Christmas Lapland. So this is definitely raced awareness. But then I guess it's also people want to people all over Europe one to experience the real winter with with all the global warming going on you get so out of snow, and and it just feels like the real winter. All we see this in Helsinki this month as well. I have gathered of snow over there as well. What does this growth mean for Laplante? Then of course, very positive thing. Lapland tourism sector employs a lot of people. But the problem is that it's still very seasonal. So most of the tourist comes a lot planned during the winter months. They could still do with tourists also in the summer months. But then there's also talk about what this this growth meaningful Lapland as Europe's last sort of wilderness area, the Saami people who are Europe's last indigenous people, of course, inhabits a lot planned, and they have their own areas where they live and heard reindeer. So are we going to see husky safaris and snowmobile safaris crossing into the Saami land. And how how is that coexistence going to go villains? The host industry already realized how much potential Atlanta's. Yes. Yes, they have. So so last year there were a couple of new route. From from Europe flying to Lapland and this year. Turkish Airlines is opening a new route from eastern bul which is going to be a big boost. And then there was a bit of a slump after the financial crisis in in in the hospitality industry. But now in the past couple of years, or so we've seen a lot of more upscale boutique resorts pope up in in different areas of Lapland, you know, these glass igloos where you can watch the Northern Lights and cozy up next to the fireplace. How important is tourism? If you look at how dependence length at the moment is on foreign travellers, how important is tourism for the region. If you look at where the money comes from it's fairly big and the importance is growing. But you also have the kind of the indigenous livelihood. So you have the reindeer herders in Lapland and one interesting area that is talked about so much, and it's actually store. It's the story that I did for the Monaco. Winter weekly is car winter testing, you know, Lebanon is one of the places in the world where car companies come and test. They're they're going to winter capabilities and ice capabilities. That's that's a really big multi-million business. But of course, you know, these are next year's models and very secretive. So it's not talked about that much. But it's another key area. So three when he when he goes to yourself. I'm wondering besides going to say Hello to sunshine, his Kroto and taking your husky. Right. What else do enjoy doing the? That's definitely my favorite thing. Yeah. Northern Lights is really big thing for me personally, because you have these areas in Lapland where you know trouble. A couple of hours from the kind of the bigger towns and you really in the middle of nowhere, which means that there's no light pollution. You can really see all the stars in the sky, and then nice edition if you see the Northern Lights. But just yeah. That's my that's my favorite thing. I would say this kind of peace and quiet grapes from Monaco's men hills independently boots of their thank you very much. And that's all for this region of the briefing. It was produced by Reese, James and research to by joining Rorick, Drake. Restore the money. She was Kenya. Scholars the briefing is back tomorrow at the same time. And it's me Deyland and time seven AM in Toronto. Meanwhile, do join Juliet full stiffle today's edition of Midori. How's that is live as eighteen hundred London time thirteen hundred in New York, Marcus hip? Thanks policing by now.

Donald Trump UK Elizabeth Warren president UK Senator Amy klobuchar government London America US Switzerland Senate Europe Hillary Clinton Australia Lapland Michael Goldfarb Barack Obama France UN
Thursday 3 January

Monocle 24: The Briefing

31:39 min | 2 years ago

Thursday 3 January

"You're listening to the briefing. First broadcast on the third of January twenty nineteen on monocle twenty four. Live from London. This is the briefing on molecule twenty four. I'm Ben Ryland. Coming up Nancy Pelosi makes a formidable return to the political spotlight as the new US. Congress Dez down the president's demands full a border wold also a head if Xi Jinping thought either that Taiwan was about to slip permanently outside China's grasp all that. He was running out of time and that his attempts of fissile Rian vacation, simply not succeeded. Then I think he might get the Quant the former British diplomat. John Everard shares his insights on China's blunt warning against Taiwanese independence Loesser look at why an era by Cathay Pacific has given a few fortunate flies a late Christmas gift and. Grace hot don't. Fortunately, we have a real doctor. What you like some heroin? The new comedy homes and Watson has been universally panned by critics and cinema goes we'll consider how to handle a box office bomb. That's all the head on the briefing starting now. The sun is due to rise in Washington in approximately twenty seven minutes and with it a new US. Congress will be preparing for its first day on the job high on the agenda will the election of a new speaker with Nancy Pelosi, all but certain to take that title. I'm joined on the line by Amy pub associated fellow the US end America's program at Chatham house and former deputy homeland security adviser who Barack Obama Amy regardless of which side of the political fence one sits on it's hard to deny. The fact that Nancy Pelosi has inured what does seem like an eternity of toxicity from her political opponents, and yet here she is looking set for another comeback is this the morale boost that the Democrats needed. I think it is. I mean, she has a long history of working in the congress. She has a reputation as being a tough negotiator. But she's also pragmatic and she's known to be able to work across the aisle when it's necessary. So I think that she is the right person to lead the House Democrats is a navigator. What's going to be inevitably a tough road ahead? A lot of a lot of people have spoken of Nancy Pelosi's ability to reach across the aisle as as you as you put it there, but the Spurs the nature of reaching across the aisle has has really changed a lot over the past two years. Do how confident are you that her skills as as an aggressive as someone who can who can jump across the aisle, and and put herself in the shoes of her opponents others skills up to the challenge of what lies ahead in Washington? As it exists today. I'm confident in her skills to do that there's a different question as to whether it's in her political interest, or in the Democrats political interest to do that if the Democrats partner with Republicans are partner with Republicans in the house that's the best way for the president to enact whatever legislation. He might be looking to enact, frankly, it's the only way, but the only way I see that happening is where the issues are so much in the car. Common. Good perhaps on infrastructure, perhaps on something like even immigration reform that all parties can agree that they need to move forward. But because as you mentioned the toxicity in Washington, these days, it's difficult to imagine a scenario where people are going to want to look like, they're actually seating or compromising to the other side. I want to ask you about the appetite for politics in Washington at the moment because Pelosi is already said that President Trump should expect a different world will the woods. She used to the one that he enjoyed for the first two years of his presidency. Trump, of course, is noted by just about everyone for his love of fighting with. He's actually very good at it is a matter of opinion. But he certainly does enjoy getting dirty in the mud. What's what's Nancy, Pelosi's position like on the on the old fashioned style of politics is she one who is likely to maybe bend, her style to to match you take on Donald Trump's don't Trump's version of what politics should be or issue more likely to remain the state's woman as as we've seen in the past she's incredibly savvy, and I think she will be very good at figuring out. What are the best tactics? But she is dealing with a caucus that is coming from many many different perspectives. Is you know, the members who are going to take their seats today are, hey. Ailing from incredibly progressive districts, in some cases, and districts that have voted most most recently for Republicans. And so they're there representing a more conservative base. So her primary goal her primary challenge is making sure that her own party can coalesce around the issues that thinks she thinks will be the most important to American people in most important politically for the Democrats to accomplish in this congress Bosie was asked has been asked the Lord actually about the boat. Whoa. No surprises there. One of her responses to NBC news was quite us. She said among many other things we can go through the back and full. But no how many times can we say no to the funding for the border wall. Now, what's what's the amongst the American public at the moment for compromises politically? I mean, one might expect when it comes to the border wall almost all Democrats would be thinking. No, we can't possibly compromise on that. But he's that really limited to that board will issue. Do you think? Maybe potentially they could be an appetite full compromises politically between the parties on other issues is I think there is. But I mean, even with the border wall. I think it's important to recognize that the concept is very political. It's not that the Democrats are saying that they're against border security. In fact, they've put forward all sorts of alternatives. Vice president Pence put forward alternative that would have increased funding for border security. I think everyone recognizes that a wall is not actually a national security solution that if you're either desperate or criminal or terrorist someone else looking to do harm to the United States. A a wall is actually not a very effective measure so for the Democrats to compromise on funding to create a wall is not just bad politics. It just isn't good common sense. So I think that's where she's coming down. And she's offering alternatives that will make it difficult for the Republicans and for the president to say, no to just looking on the other side of politics, then because of course, we do have plenty of other. People making their way back to Washington one of those. We'll be Mitt Romney who seems to be setting himself up as not just an opponent of Trump, of course, within the Republican party. But as perhaps the voice of reason when it comes to opponents of the Democrats will he be one that the Democrats would need to keep their eye on as well, I think so I think the Republican party is divided at the moment. There are those who are just as frustrated as any democrat in terms of what the president's doing tactically in terms of his political rhetoric in terms of governing by tweet and they're looking for some serious alternatives. You can challenge Trump when it comes down to the presidential election. I would expect that Mitt Romney is positioning himself to do just that. I also think that he's a more to that in particular that category of Republicans he is a much more credible candidate. And so that whether that divides the ticket whether that how that plays out for Democrats. It'll certainly if you're talking about someone like Romney, it makes it more difficult to position. N- themselves as the common sense or good government alternative. Well, certainly we'll be one to watch the career of Mitt Romney, take many unexpected turns EMMY poeple have to leave it there. Thank you very much for joining us on the briefing. It's eight minutes pulse. Twelve here inland speech on Wednesday. Chinese premier Xi Jinping reiterated his determination to reunify Taiwan and China Beijing regards Taiwan as a breakaway province and over the past year has taken steps to apply pressure on the island nation under Chinese pressure. Taiwan's diplomatic relations have crumbled as allies switched to the Beijing line. Persia has also been building militarily during his speech. She refused to rule out the use of force should Taiwan. Fully declare independence will last night's edition of the Dory. House. My guests Joan Everard and Michael Goldfarb explored that topic and Jones dotted by telling me, what was covered in cheese speech. One thing that came out very from the speech was that if Taiwan does decay independence all hell will break loose and the onus references to refusal to ni-. Two of China's itself the right to use military force. If necessary loss of emollient words about Vaas possibilities of peace reinvigoration. Although he didn't explain how this was going to happen. But it was in general, a very tough speech. This was a a hardline speech by hardline leader with almost complete control China, and who I fear may want to make Taiwan or the over the absorption of Taiwan into China. Parties political legacy, not David I one what's really the driving innovation behind all of this. Because from the outset you can look at this end suspect will maybe here to signs who potentially warring sides, whether neither one of them have wants to escalate things too far. So we've got really an exercise of both sides really wanting to appear as though the quite tough, however, really also wanting to to maintain the status, quote, the Tonys on playing tough. I mean, sighing one speech was a model of moderation. Saying that she rejected the one country two systems approach that Beijing is touting. I mean, that's the one about Hong Kong who in their right mind is going to go for that at their own free will, but otherwise the whole ten of speech was considered Trie. No, it's Beijing the trying to raise the temperature is Beijing prepared to go over the top. And to actually I think those are probably is it came to it. If seem ping thought either that Taiwan was about to slip permanently outside China's gross all that he was running out of time, and that his attempts preschool reinvigoration has not succeeded. Then I think you might get the Quant Michael the Chinese president also reserve the right to use force. I mean that there is no more. There is no threat that's more blunt than not is them. No. And on this issue because I don't I don't know the Faris stole that. Well, and my my one of the big surprises of the one trip. I made to China was how many Taiwanese were there. I was. Giving a dog at Peking university in a meeting young people, and where you from and they were all from Taipei. I thought I thought I'm an American. I thought you guys didn't talk to each other the best restaurant. I went to in Beijing Taiwanese restaurant. Food's really good. My my questions more questions for John. It's like one is this just a bit of saber-rattling because there have been questions raised about the slackening growth still overwhelming growth of the Chinese economy is in the traditional sense of what I'm going to focus people on the possibilities of conflict offshore to stop them talking about the fact that the economy is slowing down. I guess is real or is this that sense? I don't want to make the whole world about Donald Trump. But pled Amir Putin has had some success reclaiming a significant chunk of the crane, and is this a sense of testing. America's resolve to come to the defense of Taiwan, which you know, back in in the Cold War days. It was an article of faith for Democrats and Republicans that they would regard the tag on Taiwan as an attack that needed to be met militarily by the US. I don't think it's the latter. I think that the loss thing this teaching ping wants right now is another disagreement with the United States having say he's got to trade war on and he's got this complex relationship with Donald Trump, whom he defines very difficult to handle sabre-rattling. Yes. There's there's a lot of that in the speech, particularly significant bigger amendment. He gave the speech on the fortieth anniversary of China be nice for the first time of forty years ago today. China extended what it regarded as the of French Taiwan said we will let's drop all the saber rattling and try to something out in those in that point of the Taiwanese who rejected the Chinese approach, but you would have expected. A fortieth anniversary speech of that kind of development to be much softer than what Jean ping achy came out with as I said, what it came out with was was going on blood-curdling John ever there with Michael Goldfarb. Speaking to me on us night's edition of Meduri house to hear the full program. Head to our website, monocle dot com or download the podcast. You're listening to the briefing now and look at what else is making news today. As Democrats seem control of the house of representatives for the first time today, they plan to adopt a Bill ending the federal shutdown without funding a wall along the Mexican border. The shutdown was triggered off to Donald Trump demoted five billion dollars volda wold, a cornerstone election pledge it's expected that today's proposed Bill will provide a starting point full further negotiations. A prosecutor in Saudi Arabia has cooled Felipe death penalty will five of the eleven suspects being held for the murder of Saudi journalist Jamal show. Jayme the killing which sent shockwaves around the world has been almost universally blamed on the Saudi government should the five suspects. Be executed eighties unlikely testimony will ever reach the wider world and South Korea's intelligence agency has revealed the defection of a senior North Korean diplomat. Joe song guild the acting North Korean ambassador to Italy vanished from the embassy. November. He is thought to be seeking asylum in an unidentified western country. This is the briefing. And it's a quarter past the hour now as older serving travelers no New Year's sales offer a great opportunity to pick up some cheap deals on flights earlier this week those shopping with Hong Kong flag carrier cafe Pacific go too far better deal than they might have ever dreamed of when the Ellen mistakenly listed floods with sixteen thousand dollars at around six hundred and seventy five dollars the business class flights run from Vietnam to the United States, and the the unlisted the tickets as soon as it became aware of era. It has promised to Ono those already bore. I'm joined now on the mine by L S Taylor. The Asia Finance editor at flight global else. What do you think they followed through on the promise on the flights? I think in this case, it really didn't cost them too much to go through admittedly. There's a bit of lost revenue there. But it's quite a big market between the United States and Vietnam, but it's mostly Eliza market. So there's not doesn't tend to be a lot of business travelers to go on there. So for them. I think it was sort of bidded to save face onto the fares rather than cancel the tickets some airlines to and in this case, it may even get them. A few more customers later down the line. It turns out some of these passengers do end up paying extra to fly business class later on admittedly that would be a lot of extra down the line. However, it don't seem that given some recent episodes that we've seen elsewhere in the market. Some airlines most seem to be particularly susceptible to dissolve does this kind of trade off actually make sense Pacific in given how bad episodes Ken blow up in the press. Yeah. I think we've seen with previous episodes at United particularly comes to mind that can work against nail on quite quickly. And so when something like this happens, a lot of them will just sort of take it on the chin and. Move forward. And though on the tickets, we have seen the US been the exception to that that Tom's where these kind of things have happened. I've gone ahead and canceled the tickets cheaper price, and then sort of offered tickets at a regular price. But, you know, carry his in Asia some in Europe where this has happened before often it just comes down to simple human error. They caught a we'll just wear the cost of that. And allow the passengers to fly as I've been ticketed. It's sort of hard to believe that human Eric can happen in willing in most companies now, but particularly in alien where everything is so automated, and there are so many systems designed to control just about everything is this sort of thing really simply down to human error. Simple. Someone putting the wrong number in somewhere. It can be part of the fierce set, but people call revenue manages who will look at individual floods and roots, and sort of set as a lot of it is automatically sit by different algorithms systems, but they can be manually adjusted up and down, and that can be changed a various things. So if you think about it, really what he's dealing with a big spreadsheet of a whole bunch of numbers with different fizz. And in this case different combinations of is because it's fuss going from Vietnam through Hong Kong, and then almost from there. You know, it's always the potential to input the wrong number into the there's always potential as well for there to be some form of industrial sabotage with that. But that seems to be rather Ray thinking, this guy's just been a bit of an Airbus somebody you mentioned a little earlier that they the cafe Pacific won't actually be losing that much from this Cathal, what are the margins like on these sorts of seats are they are they really going to be losing that much despite the fact that the the mistaken price hundred and seventy five dollars is very different number to sixteen thousand. Well, business class generally is a very profitable pod. The peration for most airlines, and it's sort of said that as long as business class cabin on a flood is full. Then it almost doesn't matter. How many passengers there audio in the back because the phase on business classes, you mentioned about sixteen thousand dollars in this instance, usually would cover most of the cost of the plot? And then some so it's one of these things way Oviously, not every state was sold at that point these revenue manages a lot of the job is to make sure that the people on these seats that basically people aren't paying the same phase of this. Som mix and whilst there's a bit of lost revenue in the in terms of cost. It's not that much different seeming some of these business clouds probably going to be going begging have gone to frequent flaws seeking to upgrade. There's actually not a lot of digital cost. That's being on there because that cost is being worn. Anyway, if the state is going empty. Well, lots of people choose to book their holidays in just as the new year is hitting. So I guess that's the lesson learned that's what I should have been doing. Let's tailor from flat global things joining us on the briefing. Just about the hit twenty one minutes past twelve here on the briefing time now for a look at today's newspapers with Monaco's Daphne Connie's Stephanie happy new year. Let's dive into the newspapers together. Wish we start happy. Van. So starting festival New York Times China's slump leads to drop in apple sales. So I pull has cut its revenue forecasts. So it's expectations essentially for is financial performance. It's the first time it's done this in sixteen years, and it's because of poor iphone sales in China. The article says that it's quite an unexpected development, and it reflects the slowing of China's economy, and of course, it attributes this partly to the trade wool that we're seeing between China and the US, that's you know, are consumers and businesses. One of things really interesting is what be the communists quoted in the piece monks. Andy from moody says he says that the iphone is something that everyone knows in buys, and if people aren't buying it, then that's a pretty good sign that the having a hard time. That's how big Apple's power is that it can be an indicator of an entire economies performance. And it's not clear whether this is a problem particular to apple for now or whether China's. Slowing economy will affect the tech giant's online absoulutely. It's interesting isn't he does refer to Apple's a bell. With widow fool the Chinese economy. It's fascinating to consider that a company can be dominant to actually give an accurate full cost of an intonations economy. Let alone a nation the size of of China of fascinating piece there in the front page of the New York Times today. Definitely take us. Elsewhere. What else have you found in the press the guardian? Hey with a festive image of the pope spinning a basketball in his index finger he's showing off his his skills at the Vatican. So Cuban circus visited the Vatican around twenty performance performers from the Guba danced, and they carried out various acrobatic moves and performances, and at the end of the performance, you know, they go to double thumbs up from from pope Francis. Who was captured? Hey as spinning spinning a bull. What what you didn't? Would. You don't really see here is that. Of course, he was aided Oviously by one of the performers who if you see the video on the ball before. And then just kind of clearly placed on on the folks finger, so he didn't have to do much of of this finding himself. It's a the the timing. Here is quite perfect. Does look as if the bowl is perfectly spinning upon the pope's finger long probably just a moment before he dropped the bowl. Exactly. Yeah. No. The the former Kuta straight officer. This whole thing was actually I watched the Vidgis sort of three seconds. But it was enough to make the pope look like an expert bowl spin. Well. Yeah. Symbolic of the year head perhaps full for the pipe. Let's let's hope let's hope not shall we belong quickly to one of the other papers today. Final one for today. I think the Toronto Star what have you found in the in the Toronto Star Stephanie sink store in the front page title is when you need to homes, but one roof so this piece is all about multigenerational living, which is becoming a bigger and bigger concept in the US and candidate seems so it's the idea that, you know, when when grandparents grow old, they'll come with their children, and you know, it's very common in Mediterranean and southern European cultures as well, you know, speaking for myself, we have a little house in the God and where my grandma lives. So, you know, it's very common to have the grandparents living with the rest of the family, and this is about the flex house. I did a bit of research and that tagline is one roof two homes one happy family. So it kind of claims to have this perfect balance between symmetry and privacy. So this develop. Her Marshall homes has has found a way to sort of incorporate small house within the main house so that grandparents can live with their children when they grow old and have new by do you don't have the term Greenwich flat. I've heard that exactly. Is that what you call it? A base is interesting because I recently interviewed eve behalf who's a designer in San Francisco, and he's actually designed these things granny annexes so this. Yeah, the prefabricated dwellings that you can just put a new garden and have your your family all any annoying teenagers is he says, you know, stay close enough, but still a little bit separate date in my younger years live in Greenwich flood which ironically enough belonged to my grandmother, we'll have to leave it there. Definitely. But thank you for taking through today's newspapers. This is the briefing. Finally today. The new comedy Holmes and Watson has earned it self a relatively rare place in film history. It's one of the few films to be released instruments with an approval rating on rotten tomatoes in the single digits. As rebroadcast, it's just nine percent. Now, it's always puzzling to consider how in age of big daughter and instant feedback films. This terrible can still make their way to a multiplex near you. But in this case, it does seem that these studios Sony was all too away on the Turkey. It had roasting in the oven. The critic Tara Judah joins me on the line. Now, Tara there are usually a few warning signs of an impending cinematic disaster one of which is often the lack of a preview screening. Yeah, I think it is always worrying if this press previous screening because obviously studios usually want to create a lot of high. Get a lot of good reviews for their films. So that the film is releasing into the world with good word of mouth good critical acclaim and a kind of ball to set itself out, but often what happens is when they know that the film's very good is that they either only preview it to a select handful of critics or they don't preview tool in the hope that it will kind of just I mean, they've spent the money on it. They're still going to release it just show in the cinemas. But maybe no one we'll talk about it. And they weren't kinda get that negative backlash which I think is fascinating because actually whether or not negative reviews have that much of an impact on big studio films. Secondly, a question where the jury is still out. It's not definitely said that about critical review will sink film specially if it's over kind of big studio budget if it's on a wide cinema release. I mean, this lots of ways of destroying film. I think one of the most interesting stories in terms of the way that distributors work. And when they know they've got a film that isn't very good is that. When I was living back in Australia and sex and the city to came out. I think and a fellow critic of mine who I won't name actually was blacklisted from going to the previous screenings of the distributor because they'd written about the event that the distributor had put on in order to kind of mosque the fact that the film wasn't very good so often they'll put on these very big preview events for some of these films that all terrible in the hopes that by inviting you and your friends and giving you lots of drinks and free goodies and movie swag. Maybe you'll just post the movie swag pictures of you with kind of you know, 'cause MOS and t shirts little pink, pink kind of women's packages. All something on your social media and not actually talk about how terrible the film was. Oh. You're bringing back some memories in data. I was going to relay my own anecdote dad, but you've just reminded me that perhaps would be blacklisted myself. So perhaps over time that, but it is interesting. The some of the other behind the scenes perhaps even quieter measures that studios can go to to try to address up that Turkey's I've noticed in the past that it's quite common studios to drastically recount film that they consider to be an inevitable disaster. It happened in nineteen Eighty-four. When Warner Brothers releasing a super goal, which was intended to reboot the superman franchise to the point where the film as a result. Didn't actually make sense similar thing happened to the vendors in nineteen Ninety-Eight note the mobile coming series, of course, but the film version of the classic British spy steering series. Now, both of those films are still now considered to be among the worst ever. So what do you think they go to that sort of effort to re cut an and reevaluate everything wouldn't make more sense to stop spending, your money and time on the film and just? But it out there and really let all the voters attack the Turkey. I suppose it's a question of whether Wendy's the point at which you accept that you've got to give up on a product. And you know, this high stakes people invest a lot of money and making these movies. So it's probably very difficult to kind of back off and let it be una think it's a sign that people won't to kind of keep saving these films. You have films that are in production nightmare for you know, years sometimes even decades that because people keep being assigned to the project, and then they change maybe the director or the lead the writer, even their films with multiple writers, and you can kind of see on the screen that it's gone through so many different hands and different. People have come in at different points to try and save it. And then it's often only when it gets to I guess the distribution. I mean, this is the other thing is with talking about big studios. These things put in place years in advance. So even though it might be that it takes years before the film is completed and then it actually gets distribution. They've. Already made those deals and they've made those promises so whether or not they can change all those things depends on the contracts. You might be able to change it from a wide release to a more limited release. You might be able to do some damage control. You might be able to cut a trailer that still looks pretty good. Even if the film was terrible. There are ways of getting around it. But I think it is really difficult once you've kind of committed to these projects, and once this lated, and you know, especially if from big bankable studios, they've just as part of the machine they've just got to kind of chain them out. Indeed. Indeed, it is a fascinating world the world of cinematic flops, and I can't actually recall the remake of psycho back. I think that was also nineteen ninety eight had absolutely fascinating trailer. But of course, the film itself turned out to be an absolute dissolved. But not that it seems to be hurting the career of will Ferrell. He's had zoo Len to to be witched a now, Holmes and Watson. And yet. It's still does seem as though people letting will Farrell make films, so perhaps it only hurts other. People such as a fait Dunaway who was in the Super Bowl back in nineteen eighty four and rarely heard again after that are Judah. Thank you for joining us. I'm afraid we will have to leave it there that brings us to the end of today's dishes of the briefing. It was produced by Augusta much lower and researched by your Lena fund. And Nick money's studio manager will Bill Ludi the briefing is back the very same time tomorrow. Daniel h is with you for today's edition of the Dory. House that is going live at eighteen hundred hit in London thirteen hundred if you're lucky enough to be listening in New York City. I'm Ben Ryland. That's the briefing by.

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GSMC Book Review Podcast Episode 265: Interview with Michelle Cameron

GSMC Book Review Podcast

53:19 min | 10 months ago

GSMC Book Review Podcast Episode 265: Interview with Michelle Cameron

"Golden state media concepts. Bring you book review. Podcast i haven for bookworm of all ages and the whitest genres from mystery to memoirs. Romance to comedy. Fantasy to scifi. If you love to read this is a podcast for you. It's the golden state media concepts book. Review podcast hello and welcome to the tsmc booker. Podcast brought to by the gmc. Podcast network i am your host. Sarah and i am as always happy to be with you. I was just thinking about talking to my nieces on the phone. The other day they live in montana. All of my niece's no four of my nieces live in montana. One just moved to a oklahoma. But i was talking to the two younger ones who live in montana not in my hometown and they were talking about books. These two are ten and fifteen and we often talk about books when i talk to them on the phone or when we video chat. What whatever we're doing and these young women have opinions. They always have something to say about the books. They are reading which is awesome. I love that. I love hearing their take on the books It's just it's so fun especially when it's a book or a series of books that i have already read and youngest niece was breeding. I can't even remember. She was reading something the other day. shoot it anyway. Something that i had read and she had so many questions. And i was trying to remember back to when i had read that series in that book and it was just a lot of fun and then i have read books that they have recommended and so then we were able to chat about that. I don't know. I come from a family of readers and i just love it. My my older nieces love to read as well and well no my my second oldest needs is twenty and she told me the other day that she doesn't know how to read was talking about. She was just being a goofball. Apparently she's in a reading slump right now which is funny because she works at a library so at least you still surrounded by books. Even if she's in a reading slump she still has to work somewhere where they are books. But i just thought i would tell you once again. I love my family. I love my nieces. Have five nieces as you probably know. I have several adopted nieces who aren't necessarily mine by relation or anything. But i have multiple those and i actually have a couple nephews that followed that same category. I just just I'll think of as the word acquired which is quite right. I just acquired a new nephew adopted. Maybe a new nephew and He's he's a very sweet kid. He's actually the same age as my second oldest neat so he's about twenty and he lives in my hometown he has the best. He does everything with his hair. That i would like to do with my hair. All of the colors and changes in on a regular basis. And so i live vicariously through his hair dye choices any rate. I just singing about my nieces thinking about books. It's the book podcast. And so of course we are here to talk about books. We are here to talk about books by author. Michelle cameron who is my interview for this episode. We got together to chat recently about new book. It's called beyond the ghetto gates. It is historical fiction is set in the late. Eighteenth century Seventeen ninety six and seventeen ninety seven. It's a lot of fun. Because i got to learn something again. Like the recent world war. Two book history history novel. Excuse me historical fiction novel. That i read that i got to learn something new about world war two a couple of new things about world war two at any rate. This time i got to learn something new about nineteen million granted. I am not like an authority on napoleon or anything of that nature. But you know he. I know a little bits here and there at any rate It's called beyond the ghetto gates and here is the description from the back of the book. When french troops occupied the italian of kona freeing the city's jews from their repressive ghetto two very different cultures. Collide morell a young jewish maiden must choose between her duty and arranged marriage to a wealthy jewish merchant and her love for a dashing french catholic soldier. Meanwhile francesca a devout. Catholic must decide if she will honor her marriage vows to an abusive and murderous husband when he in meshes their family in the theft of a miracle portrait of the madonna. And that's it. That's all you get just enough to suck you into the intrigue and the interesting thing that i did not know about. Napoleon was That that first sentence when french troops occupy the italian port city of kona freeing. The city's jews from their repressive ghetto. That was napoleon doing. And it sounds so much more altruistic than what i expected from napoleon and i'll let michelle talk a little bit more about that in the interview because she explains kind of his motivations behind it but this is historical fiction. It's women's fiction and it's always fun for me to read Especially again if you are a regular listeners of the podcast that you know that was a history major with the women's studies minor and so for me women's history as always what fascinates me most so to learn about not only women in this time and this place but a jewish woman and a catholic woman and watching them try to navigate the world that they live in while doing so as women but also as a jewish woman and a catholic woman. You know those things come into play when you are learning about well those things come into play in any time in place but it was very interesting for me to read about them in this particular time and place so let's go ahead now and get to that interview again. The author is michelle cameron. The book is beyond the ghetto case. Hi michelle and welcome to the podcast. Thanks sarah i'm so glad to be here. I am so glad to have you here and we are going to be talking about your newest novel called beyond the ghetto gate before we get to the book though If you would please share a little bit about yourself that would be wonderful. Okay well I live in New jersey And i have two sons who are grown and flown as they say They both live and work in manhattan so not too far away although we haven't seen them nearly as much as we'd like due to the pandemic but fortunately they both can work from their apartment so that's a really good thing I am a in addition to being a writer. I'm director of the writers circle. We're a generally new jersey base Organization that teaches creative writing from for everyone from second graders on through. Obviously all of our classrooms now are virtual so we've actually expanded Both our students in our instructors beyond our local area. And that's been very interesting to do. So you know that's kind of me in a nutshell all right well The writer circle does sound very interesting whether virtual or not and i can only imagine that teaching Second graders the as your earliest group of creative. Writing has got to be a lot of fun and maybe a little bit challenging i. it's definitely challenging and i. I'm always very grateful. That isn't me who's doing it We have we have an instructor who is a children's author and has amazing energy. And he just does a phenomenal job with the little ones. And we're just very glad to let him do it Yes has their. Everyone has their gets and that is good So let's talk about the book again. It is called beyond the ghetto gates. Can you give an overview of that story absolutely so it takes place in Seventeen ninety six and ninety seven when a twenty six year old general. Napoleon bonaparte is charged To chase the austrians out of italy and this campaign Is that you know. It's sort of a second opening up a secondary front on the australian. He goes to a at one point during the campaign. He rides in the city of kona which is a harbor city South of van and he discovers there that there are Jews locked behind ghetto gates from sundown to sunrise every day And what he does is very dramatically. He dispatches it a group of jewish soldiers to demolish those gates and emancipated the jews that are locked behind those gates. He says he follows this up throughout italy. And so this is you know was basically the premise of story But of course it goes beyond the actual event You know. I have a jewish and a catholic A pair of women who are really affected by napoleon's actions. And you know it's basically their story on talon. Yeah and so. What was your initial inspiration to tell the story well. My previous novel took place during the middle ages and was really about the advent of anti-semitism in medieval europe and as such it was a really difficult novel to right. I mean there's encompass things like blood libel and the burning of books and the burning of jews locked behind in synagogues And so i was really looking for that. Very very rare thing. A jew joyous moments in jewish history. It's not that easy to find. Unfortunately but i was reading nonfiction book By an author by the name of michael goldfarb called Emancipation how freeing the jews from the ghetto led to Revolution and renaissance. And he depicted this scene that i just described of napoleon finding jews in ancona and demolishing the gates and reading. That i'm like here is definitely a novel here. And so that was that was the inspiration for the novel. I can imagine that Not the this is something about napoleon not everybody knows You know you have kind of a picture in your head of of napoleon and this particular act is not one that gets told in his story very often. It's really not been told in is story almost at all. I didn't know about it before i discovered Many many of the readers that i've spoken to said i've never heard this before And a lot of them wonder you know why napoleon was so sympathetic to the jews. And then i always say well. The answer is he really wasn't He's such an opportunist and he just saw that he was trying to sort of paint himself as a A real hero back in france and so he saw this as an opportunity to do One of the things that happened during the french revolution is that jews became citizens for the first time really millennia in europe and so I think he was sort of following that threat and said well. This is as i said. This is an opportunity. I can be a really good guy in doing this. But i don't think he has any innate sympathy for the jews and later on when he becomes emperor you know he'll he'll be very frustrated because the jews don't necessarily want to just be absorbed in the french citizenry So i think that he really he had his own agenda going on now see. that sounds more like napoleon. That's that that makes me see. I told you that she would explain it and that you know. There's a reason why. I thought whoa napoleon did that. And then yeah it made more sense once we talked about it so learn something new every day We are going to go ahead and take our first break of the podcast and when we come back more with michelle cameron so stay tuned. You're listening to the gmc book view. Podcast and i'll be right back. The gmc live than happiness. Podcast takes you on a journey of exploration. We'll discuss tried. And true methods alongside the latest trends of how to live your life to melissa happiest from psychology to meditation science to self help books the gs mc live unhappiness podcast. We'll help you to discover what makes you happy and how you can live live being the best you possible. Download the mc life and happiness. Podcast on itunes stitcher soundcloud. Google play or anywhere you bind podcasts. Just tying gsm see in the search bar. Welcome back to the gmc look protest. I am speaking today with author. Michelle cameron we are currently talking about her new historical fiction novel beyond the ghetto gates. Let's go ahead and turn gin to that interview now. In this case you you were were drawn to this time period because of looking for something that was a little more positive in terms of jewish history but normally when you sit down to write historical fiction do you start with a certain time or a certain or a certain location. How does that work for you. I think it's really Have been varied You know my first novel again during the middle ages I wrote that mainly because it was about A thirteenth century ancestor of mine. So that's what drew me to that one. This one i think it was very much. The the event itself story and i've always been fascinated by napoleon so that didn't hurt either so and i written actually another book which has not yet been published which takes place all the way back in the day. Baloney era So that you know. So i around in history but it's all except for my very first book. It's all been tied to jewish history. I think that's the common thing. And i noticed on your own when i was looking at your website Recently the that you say that you said something along the lines of. I'm not particularly religious but You know i'm still drawn to tell these stories. And of course with with judy is there is the religious aspect there's also the cultural aspect than the historical aspect so What what do you think has been drawing you to judeh history. I think a lot of it is because it is my history You know it's one of these things where My my parents moved me to israel. When i was a teenager. I got a very deep Dive into jewish history. Because i finished high school in israel. And that's part of the curriculum. So i think on one hand. I know a lot more than than this. Typical american Ju would know about the history of the jewish people. But also i simply feel like this belongs to me and a lot of ways whether i'm religious or not and a lot of teams that i talk about particularly the theme of assimilation versus safeguarding. Religious tradition is a team. That i think a lot of american jews. Resonate with you know. It's it's kinda the christmas problem. Do you have a tree. Don't you have a tree. What happens when you have relatives. Who celebrate christmas So it's it's That really very much Again as i said belongs to me so those are the things i read about. Yeah Thank you for that. I appreciate it. And i could just go off on a tangent in explore your teenage years in israel. I think it would be very interesting. i won't that's okay come back to. Yeah there's always stories that i want to be like. Oh let's talk about that for a half an hour. Wait you're recording a podcast. Stop that so as you mentioned. There are Two females in the characters in the book and one is jewish. One is catholic. The jewish woman's name is it mireya morale morale okay. I wasn't sure how the ellsworth pronounced so morell. And francesca you. Can you talk a little bit about each of them. And what about them that might resonate with readers. Sure absolutely So morale Is what I often term my feisty heroine And i have a problem with feisty heroine. She's very proactive faced with a dilemma. She wants to work in her father's workshop and to his legacy He makes Ca two boats. The singular tuba. These are these gorgeous illuminated. Jewish marriage certificates and In kona at this point in time was one of the Was the world's center of tuba making her mother and the city rabbi don't want to allow her to do that They want her to go the traditional route to marry well to marry someone wealthy that every mother wants to do that part of it and to you know raise children and be a good jewish housewife So wh one of the difficulties. I have in creating Authentic characters that will resonate with a twenty first century. readership is that they can't be too passive and morale and a lot of ways. Started out being much more passive. 'cause i was i was reaching more for the authenticity. And my data readers all told me no no no. She's gotta do more for herself. And so she evolved over many many revisions of the novel. So what i think resonates wiz current readers is that she does know what she wants. And even though she's blocked from doing it for a good portion of the novel She still has that hankering she. Has that longing to do the thing that she feels. is really her her deepest desire in terms of french. Half scott this is a very different situation. Francesca is very much trapped in a marriage that to an abusive husband to eventually becomes actually A murder and she feels an obligation to him because of what her The priests and the church is telling her that once married. There's there's no out you know. She can't divorce him. You know because being a devout catholic and she is very devout and that she's sort of told you have to help him. You have to do things for him. And so she struggles with that the other side of francesca into that she has been brought up to revile jews Again this was very common in this period of time and unfortunately often in our period of time as well And so again. She's been she's been taught by the priests by her society that are not to be trusted and then she meets a jewish soldier. And they you know she starts to question those beliefs and one of my deepest hopes for this novel is that you know people will read it understand more about the the jewish his story and understand more you know sort of goes through the same transformation that francesca does perhaps. Yeah and one thing that i i appreciate about historical fiction is a what you just said that that you can view a certain period and a certain way certain actions through the eyes of the characters they can kind of understand what was going on and why situations were as they were but I i wanted to touch back on what you said about morell. And and how. She was a feisty. She's a feisty character You know and it's so easy to take our twenty first century ideas of what she should do but the reality was that she was a young not only jewish but she was a woman. Let's seventeen ninety six and it very patriarchal and she was expected to behave a certain way. And she had to live within the confines of her surroundings. Even if she is fictional right no absolutely and she's she's faced with a real dilemma. Which is she she. falls for a Catholic french soldier And to the point where She considers running away with him And but she does feel duty toward her family. So there's definitely a struggle that goes on you know with that she's also Betrothed to marry a much older man And who's actually turns out to be best friends Father which again was not unusual in this period of time. If you read regency fiction a lot of times older men would marry me. Much younger women Be especially if they didn't have a male heir so there's a lot of Both internal and external struggle that that poor morale has to face right and each woman. Not only is she faced with The the strictures of the time from being a woman but each of them has to come to terms with their own Faith their religiosity. Because it is still there are still ideas of what women should be allowed to do in both judaism and catholicism You know you mentioned that. Francesca's in this terrible relationship but of course her priest is going to tell her. You know the bible says you have to be you know you have to submit your husband. There's all of these things you cannot. You know this is your lot. This is what god has given you And that can be. I think really hard for modern readers. Even though it's still those problems can still exist in modern times. You know absolutely absolutely and so. Yeah no so as i said they. Both they both struggled which. I think All right now that you listen to me babble. My way through that last question jeez. Let's go ahead and take another break. So we can recover from that babble fest stay tuned you're listening to the mc book review. Podcast and i'll be right back. Tired of searching the vast jungle of podcasts. Now listen close and here this out. There's a podcast network that covers just about everything that you've been searching. The golden state media concepts podcast narrower is here nothing less than our podcast blitz with endless hours of podcast covered from news sports fashion cooking entertainment fantasy football and so much more so stop lurking around and go straight out to the golden state media concepts podcast network guaranteed to that. Podcast is whatever it may be visit. Www dot jesus mc podcast dot com. Follow us facebook and twitter and download us on i tunes soundcloud and google play. Welcome back to. Gmc booker view podcast. Let's go ahead to see if i can get to the rest of the interview babble. Free well i am speaking with michelle. don't hold your breath but you know it could happen. It could be a miracle. Let's go ahead and see what happens. Absolutely how much research did you do for the book. Oh so much It's funny because i'm in the midst of researching the sequel. And it's just reminding me how much research goes into every one of the books that historical fiction that i right So yeah no. I mean i will. Obviously i own a lot of books about the period about you. Know napoleon himself about The dress and the food I love going to well. I love going to libraries and getting more books. I also love going to museums a mean. I'm again very fortunate to live outside of new york where you can go to The metropolitan museum for example and they have these gorgeous period rooms. And i wish they'd let me you know in there and be able to sit for hours that they never let me do that So rude yes. I know it's really terrible And then you know Our work and all of that So yes so. I do a tremendous amount of research and every once in a while there is a real surprise That that crops up and particularly in this novel there were two major surprises that contributed greatly to the plot of the book One of already mentioned which is The fact that and kona italy was the world's center of ca- tuba making these gorgeous marriage. Certificates i mean the Artisans of of ancona with the first ever. Illuminate them And they have this very distinctive shape which is called an arch which Was you know incredibly useful to me. Because i did travel to other cities You know throughout the process of researching the book federa And i would come upon an exhibit of jude ikea and see a a behind hanging on the wall and nine times out of ten It would be a ca- from an kona and i would recognize it of the shape but this gave morale kind of a home for you. Know her her personal passion The second surprise was that in the cathedral Up on one of the Three mountains that surround the harbor. There's this gorgeous cathedral There and they had a portrait of the virgin. Mary and francesca muratti is actually a real person who was the first to witness the miracle of this portrait turning head and crying Which finn uproar in in in kona and was repeated in several other cities throughout italy. At the time. The reason i say francesca was a real life. Person is that actually one of my students helped me find this document from the vatican which related the entire incident and There was also this lovely anecdote about how napoleon who was in the midst of looting the cathedral which she did all the way throughout italy. I mean this was just something he was doing Was you know encountered the portrait. And something he saw on it kind of spooked him and so he described that he lifted this gold cloth and threw it over the portrait. Which you know. You can't resist. If you're still novelists i mean that's story is just too good Yeah i will say that everything that happens to the portrait after that moment is completely invented so but again it was it was Research driven surprise. It helped me Tremendously with the plot. Yeah that's really cool. And actually you answered one of my. That was going to follow up with a question of have you traveled to ancona. And you said that you have. You've been there so Obviously spend in. Pre penn pandemic. d-. Sorry i had no actually no i. I've been other cities. A lot of my travel has to do with where where My family wants to go. I actually have not been to ancona. Although i'm dying to get their So a lot of what. I learned about an kinda i had to learn from Images from other people who traveled there. You know travel itineraries Internet gorgeous photos of it so Yeah no i'm. I'm hoping to get there but i will say one of the nicest things if somebody said to me as i was Talking with a book club and a woman mentioned she'd been there and she said i was remembering what it was like to walk up the steep Streak the whole time. I was reading it and i'm like thank goodness i must have gotten it right That's good. yeah. I mean at least in this day and age we have the internet google maps and all kinds of helpful a couple things. Even if we can't go everywhere we wanna go absolutely. Yeah you mentioned that you're working on the sequel now What can you say about the sequel without giving too much away if it ties in with this book or you know what can you say about it. Sure so. Napoleon is very odd thing immediately after this and the next two years. He takes us expeditions. This military expedition to egypt into israel again not history people know too much about And offense he faces his first defeat in auto in israel So both of the Both daniel and kristof will be part of the troop that accompany him to egypt and israel whereas you know Morale will be in correspondence with with daniel And so their stories will continue and there are some really interesting moments that happen both in terms of just napoleon Turned out to be very impatient during this campaign. that didn't work out for him too well. But also just in terms of The jewish side of the story where he actually Hinted at the establishment of a jewish state. If the jews in in israel in particular would help him which has been contested by historians Again sort of Is a fascinating story to explore in fiction. Yeah absolutely absolutely. I mean because you can imagine all kinds of ways at that. Conversation may have gone because we don't know within that conversation actually happened. No exactly exactly and Yeah so it's gonna. It's going to be a really interesting book to write and one of the nice things about this. One is that I did take a trip with my family. To israel having been to each but been to israel and so pilgrimage to a number of the places where napoleon had been. And i know that that's going to enrich the book tremendously. Was napoleon historical. Figure that you were interested in before you started researching for these books to a degree When i was fourteen years old my sister handed me a book by the name of disarray by annemarie salenko and this is actually a novel about the real life real-life i love who eventually becomes queen of sweden And so sort of my fascination with napoleon started there. I would say it lay dormant for many many years until again i. I started researching this book. But i will. I acknowledged as away you know in my authors note Very cool in terms of writing. When did you start writing and is it something that you've always wanted to do or something. You came to later in life. How does that work for you. So it was definitely something that i've wanted to do. I would say since the fourth grade When i remember writing and illustrating this odd little futuristic story you know very jetson ask And i think actually three three novels before Getting to my first book which is a verse novel about william shakespeare in the globe theatre. And i'm very very grateful that none of those three bucks ever got published. 'cause they were very much practice books but Winter would the third one which was based on It was a young adult novel about shakespeare in the globe theatre I was. I thought that was one was going to go. And when it didn't. I kinda gave up on writing for a while and i was brought back to it by my youngest son who himself is a gifted writer. And i'm he's actually the alex who the book is dedicated to Because from a very young age he he just would sit down and write. I mean he's such a born writer And so. I kind of looked at him. And i said well i term right for the joy of it. I don't have to write for publications. And so i started actually at that point writing poetry because with a young family poetry so much easier to to To write and complete something rather than a whole long novel and that's sort of what got me back into writing And then after the verse novel. I wrote The fruit of her hands which is medieval Novel and that one definitely needed to be a full novel. So that's kind of where. I got back to novel writing time for the last break of the podcast. When we come back michelle will be talking more about the writers circle that she mentioned at the beginning of the podcast. So stay tuned. You're listening to the gs mc book review podcast and i will be right back. The golden state media concepts travel. Podcast the show that gives you advice on everything. Travel weeks four places. You've always wanted to go as well as giving tips for traveling in those blazes. We'll give you buy s- on the best sites for travel. Tips information and discounts. Join us as we travel the explorer cultures and meet new people. The golden state media concepts travel. Podcast has got you covered. Download the gs mc travel. Podcast on itunes stitcher soundcloud. Google play or anywhere. You find podcasts. Just type gs mc in the search bar. Welcome back to the gmc book review. Podcast is speaking with other michelle cameron and as i said before the break. We're going to talk a little bit more about the writers circle. Ignore the fact. That when. I asked the question. I refer to it as the raiders group. It's a circle out a group. Let's return now to that interview then When did the writers group come into play in your career. So i was. I was working for a terrible terrible terrible day. Job And sort of sort of sneaking in Writing by getting up at four thirty in the morning to right and so After the fruit of her hands was published. I went and i taught At a different workshop invited to teach at a different workshop. And i realized how much i loved teaching about writing and so i came home after that and started to try and see you know what i could possibly do. And judith. Lindbergh had founded the writers circle about a year before and she was very much a one woman show at that point. So i sort of got together with her and said i'd love to join you and We did that And so i've been very fortunate to sort of build my life around what i called the writing life because either i'm teaching writing or i'm helping to run the writers circle or i'm doing my own writing very nice Sounds like a very inclusive and Immersive i don't think that's the right word. But you know maybe it's really lovely and i mean judy and i often look at each other and say would be working. Even though it's right exactly exactly do you Then from your own writing or from your teaching experience have advice for aspiring authors absolutely and want us to find other writers. I mean this helped me tremendously Because back when. I was getting back into writing. I would write things and sorta stick them in a drawer and i It was by meeting other writers and having some writing mentors That i really was encouraged to start to once again to try and get published i with the poetry and then with the the novels And so writing is such a solid terry act for the most part but and so many people don't understand why you would take so much time out of your your your day to do it but other writers understand and this is. I'm very proud of the the writing community that We've built with the writer circle and Hopefully this story. I'm not allowed to tell but we just got news. That two of our students are actually getting married. you which is like amazing But yeah no. I mean just finding other writers you know whether that be through through courses or whether that just be getting together with a group of other writers it just help so much Because it's something you love to do but other people just don't get it right unless you experience it. You don't always understand what goes into it. Yeah when you have the time to read for yourself and maybe you do and maybe you don't you do a lot of research but What authors genres are you drawn to for personal reading I can't fall asleep at night. Unless i read fiction. I just can't so. I'm constantly reading I'm very eclectic reader. But naturally you know the thing i gravitate towards the most is historical fiction so I will read you know As much as that as i can get my hands on i'm in. It's not really historical fiction. But i mean huge jane austen fan and one of the real pleasures is that A writing beyond the ghetto gates. Was that allowed myself to re read all of jane austen because of course it's that time period and that helped me you know. Just get a sense of the time. So yeah definitely historical fiction but like i said i i will read pretty much anything. Not a huge horror suspense fan but other than that. I read pretty much everything. Wow you sound like my book. Twin love jane austen not a huge horror. Fan need to read at night before. I go to sleep at We can be booked besties. We can't so. I know you have a website so if you can tell people where they can find your website and where they might be able to interact with you on social media. Sure so. my website is Michelle dash cameron dot com I have a twitter accounts. But i will say. I don't go on twitter as much as as a lot of other writers. But i am at at M cameron m. c. a. m. e. r. o. n. underscore writer. I'm much more on instagram and facebook. Instagram is all one word. Michelle cameron writer and my author page on facebook is Michelle cameron author. So there. you go all right easy enough. Thank you michelle. We've talked about a number of different things during our time together but is there anything that You had wanted to talk about the we haven't had a chance to before now Just i mean i've been doing A lot of zoom calls with with with book clubs with jewish organizations with non jewish organizations. I'm actually really excited. I'm gonna be going to an interface organization in so adelphia in. I believe it's in january. So i'm incredibly happy to zoom into any any of those And you know to To interact with with readers in that way and so that would be tremendous. And you you know. There is a contact form on my website to be able to get in touch with me. And so yeah. I've been really enjoying. Oh i bet yeah that sounds really fun Well thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me not only about beyond the ghetto gates but about some of your other novels as well. I really appreciate it. Well thank you so much. I've had you know. I my pleasure in in Speaking with you as well. So they there. I just love talking to authors. I know i say a lot. But it's true and when something is true you should say it. I love talking to authors and chatting with them about You know i know. I asked them all well read and and how they write and all those things but i genuinely find that stuff fascinating i. I seriously have more books on my tv. Our list than we'll ever get red. But i still like to know what other people are reading. I'm just nosey. That way and i you know i love talking with michelle and thank you again. Michelle for joining me on the podcast to talk about not only beyond the beyond the ghetto gates. But some of your other works as well again. I really enjoyed that. This is historical fiction. I enjoyed that. It is women's fiction that i learned something new about napoleon learned a little bit more about the napoleonic era. I actually realized that. I don't know a lot about napoleon. Just kind of the stuff that you learn in your world history class in college when you're a history major or when you're just taking a world history class you know kind of a the highlights. The the ups the downs the waterloo short man syndrome hand coke or not his co. buck in hand in his jacket all those things and so it was kind of fun to learn a little bit more about A character or not character historical. Figure that you do hear about a lot but maybe not in the detail that makes up a complex human being who did a lot more in his or her life then we learn about in our one hundred level world history classes necessarily so. Thank you michelle. Thank you as always to you my listeners. And as always if you're a fan of this podcast please do go ahead and leave us a review with that's written or five star fabulous when you leave the reviews because it helps get that podcast out to other book lovers. It's not so much about me. It's more about getting this. Podcast out to as many people who love books as we possibly can. So thank you for Writing reviews doing reviews all that good stuff. Also follow us on social media. I love to hear from listeners. So facebook twitter and instagram are your options for that. Please know that my instagram page is not nearly as pretty as michelle's instagram page. You should go visit her instagram page. Also because while but please do also follow are less colorful. Maybe i should step color game i. I'll do that. I will try to step up my color game our instagram account and make it a little more vibrant. How how's that sound if you'll come follow me anyway. Facebook twitter and instagram. Gmc book review. And please do leave comments. Tell me about the books that you're reading. Tell me about the books that you want to be reading. Tell me about books. That you think are overrated. Tell me about. Because you think are over hyped. Tell me about books that you will read ten times in a row or you know once a year all of those good things. I love to hear from listeners. I hope you will join me next time when i will be speaking with author anne crawford about her newest novel nope it's her second newest novel It is called Life in the hollywood lane and it talks about a young woman who moves to hollywood. That doesn't really even begin to cover everything that happens in this book. It's it's a lot more in th-then that but that'll maybe pique your interest. It's it's a hollywood story. And the voice of the protagonist trish is just hilarious and kind of reminds me of the voice in my own head so definitely join me on tuesdays. Podcast for that episode. Thank you again. I hope you have a great weekend. And i hope as always that you find plenty of time to get yourself in a good book. You've been listening to the golden state media concepts book review. Podcast part of the golden state media concepts podcast network. You can find this show and others like it at. Www dot g s mc podcasts dot com download. Our podcast on stitcher soundcloud and google. Play this type in gs mc to find all the shows from the golden state media concepts podcast network from movies to music from sports entertainment and even reared news. you can also follow us on twitter and on facebook. Thank you and we hope you have enjoyed today's program.

napoleon Michelle cameron francesca israel montana Michelle kona italy Collide morell twenty six year michael goldfarb morell mireya tsmc gates Napoleon Francesca google europe metropolitan museum
Wednesday 2 January

Monocle 24: Midori House

30:45 min | 2 years ago

Wednesday 2 January

"You're listening to house. First broadcast on the second of January twenty nineteen on monocle twenty four. Live from London. This is Midori house. I'm Ben Ryland on today's show the US gets a new congress tomorrow, but that government shutdown. Well, it looks at to roll on for a lot longer. Also ahead blows my mind that it took the killing of a Washington Post journalist for everyone to go. I guess he's really not a reformer. Meanwhile, every Muslim person, you know, was like, yeah. No shit. He's the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, the American comedian Hasan. Menage catches the eye of be Saudi government, but shoot net. Flicks have pulled his comedy series. Joining me full analysis of the former diplomat join Everard and the journalist Michael Goldfarb, plus China makes its plans for Taiwanese unification bluntly clear, and if you want New Year's resolution was to finally right that screenplay. Well, we'll tell you why twenty nine teen could be you'll year. That's. Oh, come on Midori house starting now. And welcome to the Dory. House. My guest today. John Everard, the former British diplomat who's held posts in Belarus, Uruguay and North Korea and Michael Goldfarb, an author and journalist based right here in London. Happy new year to you both and welcome to ALPHA's program for twenty nineteen as well on a day that also happens to Mark the conclusion of the one hundred and fifteenth US, congress the one hundred sixteenth congress will arrive tomorrow to a government in the midst of a shutdown as fiery debate continues of President Trump's plan for a border wall. I must say a plan. That's not looking too good at the moment. Michael. It's always a blame game isn't at one suspects. Trump thinks is all hurting the Democrats at the moment is Iran. Probably not I one of the things that happened in the last month of twenty eighteen is that a lot of key staff kind of just left. Left and they had basically checked out over the previous sixty days. So the last quarter. He's had no good advice. Not that he listens to much. Good advice. This was a fight. He didn't need to pick. The wall is this thing for his base. Everybody knows there's not going to be a wall. There might be new stretches of barrier and to shut the government down with a new democratic house of representatives coming in leg by woman now to Pelosi who actually knows how to use the legislative process to get what she wants. I think it's a fight. He didn't need. So what we're going to see over the next week? Or so is they'll be I mean haggling, and whether there's actually going to be some kind of funding. This is the critical thing that in a budget Bill continuing resolution to keep the government open. There will be money for funding the wall, my guess is there won't be as much as he wants. It'll be 'cause medic and they'll all get back. To work eventually. But for now, it's a useless waste of time. But then what's the Trump presidency in a word, a useless waste of time. Well, join ever I suspect the Donald Trump might say that there's no such thing as a bad fighter picking fights is really a hallmark of his leadership style. If you could call it that and at the moment, at least, he seems to be dictating the terms of the discussion, even if that discussion isn't necessarily a positive one is it baps still doing him some good to four Trump to be seen to be out there packing. Some punches. I don't think it's true that there's no such thing as about fighter bad fight is one in what you look stupid to your own base. And I think Trump runs a real risk of society that happening he has to deliver this wall. He's staked his political credibility on it. And every time he has these great Nuremburg style rallies. The base bay for the wa-. All they don't care. What it looks like whether it's a fact or anything it says, it's become iconic, which means the Nancy Pelosi, mice cut, right? I mean, Nancy pleasant knows all about how to use rules. She can hold into ransom. This is real power over the president. I think I agree that this was a fight. He didn't need to pick. I get very foolish to picket. Your and what's interesting is, you know, John Kelly who we've spoken about often over the last year and a half that he was actually the chief of staff in the White House gave an exit interview he left his post. I guess he left at the end of the year, but it gave an exit interview to the Los Angeles Times. And it was really interesting because they brought up the wall. And he said, well, really everyone knows there's not going to be all sympathy. Concrete structure, it's something that's out there. It's a political sat to the base, you know, to make it seem that we're going to keep all these dreadful illegal aliens out of our pure white country. So if your own chief of staff knows that it's not gonna. Happen. And probably Donald Trump knows. It's not going to happen. Why bother but that's just the way the guy roles, and he's got no effective check on him. So it'll be a loss. I think the other interesting thing that came out today was that Mitt Romney who was the Republicans nominee in twenty twelve Penn. This really, quite fiery editorial opinion piece in the Washington Post. He's just been elected to the Senate from Utah, and he really ripped Trump apart for being divisive and not doing the essentially presidential thing. Which of course, wouldn't be necessarily surprise coming from someone like Mitt Romney, however, deed read as if it were coming from someone certainly it was being said in the voice of someone who fancied himself a president. We know that Mitt Romney wants to be president. He's tried more than once. But it it has prompted some people to suspect that maybe he's giving it another go. I, you know, this is the thing. This is only day to twenty nineteen. I I don't think we should be talking about twenty twenty yet. Although let's face it. I mean in Washington, that's all they're talking about. It's as if twenty nine thousand nine is not going to happen. The assumption is that that Trump will be running for president. Again. They forgot about Robert Mueller. My present some evidence to the public that might lead to his being thrown out. And I do wonder if if part of the motivation for Rome news article was to say, look, you know, I will now take the place in the Senate that John McCain occupied. I will be the Republican who stands up to Trump and tries to bring some honor and decorum back to American politics. Well, I'm not sure it's about twenty twenty people have suggested that Romney's fancying himself. At least is the next Jeff flake, a pot of what he wrote in the Washington Post was that with the nation so divided resentful and angry presidential leadership in qualities of character. Indispensable, and it is in this province where the incumbents shortfall has been most glaring now Trump's rather characteristic response to that was I won big. And he didn't join ever a Trump's winning strategy. Here is to take politics and turning turn it into a bit of an entertainment vaudeville act is an enter. That's exactly what he's trying to do. He had just just make them laugh, and they'll still thinking about the the rather serious issues at the heart of what's being said here Ken Mitt Romney, perhaps take on Trump with something as old fashioned as politics. Yes. I think he probably can. But I think there's a broader issue here. You're right. I mean to Trump's first instinct is to reach his Ford evolve skit machine that works with his dedicated base. I mean, the people who come and cheer him at all his run his they just let this stuff up. His problem is that is no longer enough to keep the majority needs to keep governing. He needs to keep moderate Republicans at least acquiescence. If not enthusiastic about his his government amid Ron is a big hitter. Admit Romney comes out and says, this guy sucks, which is effectively what this op-ed says a lot of Republicans are going to read that and think and you can see step by set creep creep that Trump's control over the Republican party is slowly eroding is contracting back to his core base. And his core base is not enough. But how how far away does Trump's control of the Republican party need to to drift in order for the Republicans to feel as though they need to do something about this. Because that's really the the key question, isn't it? We've got a lot of Republicans who would fancy themselves as being able to do a much better job as president than than this current guy, can, but it would take a very special someone to actually step forward and say actually on the guy that can do it. I is very hard put numbers on this. But I think broadly the answers how does it needs further to drift not very far? We have a new slew of senators coming in. A lot. I mean Mitt Romney is not the only a member of the Senate with high political ambitions. And I think that him setting out a signal that he at least wants to put deep blue water between himself and President Trump. A lot of the others will start to think mitt may have a point here. Maybe I too need to set out a separate stole just my own political survival now when the ship goes down, and so when not an if these guys want to be swimming, exactly one of the interesting things is as the numbers drifted in towards the end of the year of of the the deep results of the midterm elections. The you the Democrats increase the number of their the amount of their overall vote by a factor of almost six million women who voted for Trump because it didn't like a lot of middle class. White women didn't like. Voted democrat this time around those things are all out there Miller will come and he will make his he will present his report and now because the Democrats have control of the house of representatives. They have control of the budget process. They will be have control of a subpoena process that allows them to do their own investigating of all manner of aspects of Trump's personal financial situation. And I do think that that what Mitt Romney is about clear blue water. And I'm sure that there's you know, courage is not a. Is not a feature of the contemporary Republican party. They found by luck. This guy who was able to ram through for them in a demagogic fashion their supreme court nominees and their tax cuts. Now, they've got a an economy that is going to be an inconsiderable difficulty be calls of this massive deficit that comes from those tax cuts. Anybody could have told them it would happen. And they've got what they need from him. And I think that they're, you know, if Mitt Romney thinks he can be the one to to at least plant a flag and say, you know, you can rally round me over here, and I will fight fine. I also think you know, I don't think impeachment is on the cards necessarily, but be because the Republicans have the majority in the Senate and the way the impeachment process works is Trump would be impeached in the house, and you'd be tried in the Senate. And if Mitt Romney is saying will, you know, if I can find ten of you to agree with me, and then we can go to the democratic senators then there is a possibility of impeachment. And then you can force resignation which is what happened with Richard Nixon. He was never tried or impeached, but the Republican leadership in the house in the Senate went to him and said, look if it comes to the Senate, we're going to impeach you. So he resigned, and I think that that is a scenario I can see happening over the next six to nine months just before we wrap up on on this speculation rather early speculation. As it always is when we talk about US politics on mitt Romney's potential presidential bid, one of his biggest flaws thinking back to the last time that he'd he tried to be president was that he's a very wealthy, man. He's a successful businessman. It was very hard to present Mitt Romney as a man of of the people. He was always coming across as a friend of a big business and of goals how times change now we have Donald Trump in the White House. But on one hand, Donald Trump does have a point when he presents Mitt Romney is someone who has tried to be president and has lost more than once. So he's going to have plenty of ammunition against. Mitt Romney, a why should this time be any different fold Mitt Romney washer we now? Look at him differently. Has Trump's election changed the political landscape to enough of a degree to make Mitt Romney somehow the sensible choice now I- sensible choice. Maybe I think yes. The political landscape has changed a great deal. I think that after Trump America will never be quite the same again. And I think to the Mitt Romney has changed. The man has learned quite a lot. If you read, you know, the tenor of his his recent remarks, not not refined. Just now just to the op-ed in the Washington Post talking about, but to I other speeches, and you compare them with Mitt Romney twenty twelve this modest come a long way. I think he's now much poor plausible presidential candidate. Well, let's move along now to China with the president over there has warned that Taiwan must accept that. The country will be reunited with China Xi Jinping made the comments during a speech. Talking forty years since the warming of relations between Beijing and Taipei. It's not surprising position for China to take. But John, what are we to gain from the tone here is the Chinese president simply setting the stage for twenty nine thousand nine or is he perhaps trying to extinguish any push for true independence before that actually takes place. I think the certainly the lotto quite possibly the former to he one thing that came out very clearly from the speech was that. If Taiwan does decay independence all hell will break loose and the ominous references to a refusal to deny to China's Zayas off the right to use military force. If necessary loss of emollient words about Vaas possibilities of peace reinvestigation. Although he didn't really explain how this was going to happen. But it was in general, a very tough speech. This was a a hard line speech by hardline leader with almost. Fleet control China, and who I fear may want to make Taiwan or the over three absorption of Taiwan into China part of his political legacy. Not to go, David. I one what's the what's really the driving motivation behind all of this. Because from the outset you can look at this end suspect will maybe here two signs who potentially warring sides, whether neither one of them perhaps wants to escalate things too far. So we've got really an exercise of both sides really wanting to appear as though they quite tough, however, really also wanting to to maintain the status quo. Neither side really wants to to be responsible for the spark that that creates everything that that's the launches everything into an eruption the Tonys on playing tough. I mean, tying one speech was a model of moderation saying that she rejected the one country two systems approach that Beijing is touting. I mean, that's the one that we bought a Hong Kong who in their right minds is going to go for that out the room free will but otherwise the the whole ten of us. Each was considered Trie. No, it's Beijing. The trying to raise the temperature is Beijing prepared to go over the top unto actually use military force. I think the answer's probably yes, if it came to it. If seating ping thought either that Taiwan was about to slip permanently outside China's grasp all that. He was running out of time and that his attempts puzzle reinvigoration, simply not succeeded. Then I think you might get the Quant Michael the Chinese president also reserve the right to use force. I mean that there is no more. There is no threat that's more blunt than not is them. No. And I on this issue because I don't I don't know the Faris stole that. Well, and my my one of the big surprises of the one trick by I have made to China was how many Taiwanese were there. I was giving adult at Peking university in a meeting young people and where you're from. And they were all from Taipei, and I don't. I don't. Well, I thought I thought I'm an American. I thought you guys didn't talk to each other the best restaurant. I went to in. Beijing was the Taiwanese restaurant. Food's really good, Mike. My question is I have more questions for John. It's like one is this just a bit of saber-rattling because there have been questions raised about the slackening growth. I mean, so overwhelming growth of the Chinese economy. I mean is this save rattling in the traditional sense of what I'm going to focus people on the possibilities of conflict offshore to stop them talking about the fact that the economy is slowing down is I guess is it real or is this that sense? I don't want to make the whole world about Donald Trump, but platinum year Putin has had some success reclaiming a significant chunk of the Ukraine, and is this a sense of testing America's resolve to. To come to the defense of Taiwan, which you know, back in in the Cold War days. It was an article of faith for Democrats and Republicans that they would regarding the tack on Taiwan as an attack that needed to be met militarily by the US. I don't think it's the latter. I think that the loss thing this Jinping wants right now is another disagreement with the United States having say he's got he's got a trade war on and he's got this crowded complex relationship with Donald Trump, whom he defines very difficult to handle sabre-rattling. Yes. There's there's a lot of that in the speech, particularly significant bigger. Remember, he gave the speech on the fortieth anniversary of China being nice for the first time forty years ago today. China extended what it regarded as the hand of French Taiwan said, you know, we will let's drop all the saber rattling and try to work something out in those in that point the Taiwanese who rejected the Chinese approach, but you would expect it a fortieth anniversary. Speech of that kind of development to be much softer than what's Jinping Archie came out with as I said what it came out with was was going on blood-curdling the Washington Post. John conducted analysis that found about seventy percent of Taiwanese people believe that their countries already independent. They don't see the country is being part of China at all Chinese unification is quite unpopular here. Even is a China were to take steps to to really to fully through on the threats that they've made that would really only be the stock wouldn't it. They'd have a massive hurdle to come to convince people that they were actually Chinese now, Ben this is trying to you don't convince people you shoot them. We will have to leave that particular topic of behind, but we've got plenty more to come. You're listening to Madari house. He with me, Ben Ryland, join Everard and Michael Goldfarb also here with the program today coming up next net. Flicks wades into controversy after it pulled an episode of a comedy series at the request of the Saudi. The government. And if you're looking to stage a play perhaps written in nineteen twenty three will perhaps adapt book into a musical. Well, twenty nineteen might be you'll year. We'll tell you why coming up next. California. Here we come molecule has arrived on the west coast, and you shop and bureau is open platform the design quarter in Culver city, that's home to one hundred boutique retail and culinary brands. If you're in town pop along to meet the team pick up the latest issue of the magazine and browse our exclusive collaborations from elegant stationary too, smart jackets, plus plenty in the way of print. Of course. Discover our range from furniture to fragrances courtesy of brands from the US and beyond intrigued and come and see us at anew LA outpost platform in Cova city. We look forward to meeting you there. Midori house here on Monaco twenty four. I'm Ben Ryland still with me. Join Everard and Michael Goldfarb. Netflix has made no secret of its plans for global domination of the streaming age. But the company is now finding the true cost of operating in some parts of the world. The streaming giant was forced to pull an episode of the standup comedy programme Patriot Act of its host has gone Menage mocked the Saudi effort to cover up the death of the journalist Jamal kashogi. Netflix says it does support on his freedom, but that it has to comply with local laws. Others however have expressed alarm at Netflix says decision such as Kashoggi's former editor at the Washington Post who called the decision outrageous now Michael companies take tough decisions when doing business in various parts of the world. Sometimes it is simply the cost of doing business. There is this particular case so unusual. That's a good question. But no, it's not. I mean, we've just been speaking about China. I mean, the the amount of bending over backwards that American companies that stream on the internet that sell high-tech, and in, you know, objects of desire due to get into the Chinese market is is shocking. I mean, there's they self-censor all the time in this case. But I think the problem is one how big a market of Saudi Arabia. You know, it's not that big and second, you know? It sets a bad precedent for the company not just in terms of you know, freedom of expression. But if you think of all the countries where it streams, I is it out of the question to think air Bolsonaro who was inaugurated, I guess today as president of Brazil might take exception to a documentary about the rain forest that he is going to open up again to loggers, and he might say, well, this is an insult to the people of Brazil into my government. What will Netflix do? Then. I mean, anybody listening can think of a local political issue in the country where they're listening and can think of how government might say, you know, we don't like this message, and you can't show it. So I think it's actually a bad precedent for Netflix, ladies and data bad president. I mean, I I would need to point out that Netflix already, of course, modifies much of its content full certain regions. The Netflix movie, Alex Strangelove is not available in Russia. Unsurprising? Considering it's a film about a teenager who comes out as gay, but film studios have been doing this forever. The actor Richard Gere is no longer cast in Hollywood movies, mostly because of his activism against China. Basically, if Richard Gere's in a movie, it will not be distributed in China, and that's a very important market for film studios now, and that's really just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to to that sort of thing. But this is not an unusual thing is it John. And basically when you're a big company like net Netflix or any of the major film studios working in Hollywood. You are basically asking the question, it's an existential one if we don't comply with certain requests, shall we put it that way in various parts of the world, then you do not operate there. And someone else does. Yes, I think net flicks is problem. Here was this more than request actually served legal document and face the agonizing decision of either continuing to sue the episode. The is so fend to the Saudis in the. In the face of the law, which in which case, you know, you you commit a criminal offence or. Sydney going along with with what the side is wanted. I'm putting it or I suppose alternatively saying, we're not prepared to have artistic integrity, compromising sway and closing down. Now. None of those easy choices. I don't know. How many subscriber to have a Saudi Arabia, but I suspect it's enough to to make the not want abandoned market completely. Also, you have to I mean, we're focusing on this one case you have to remember that there's been a lot of this going on in Netflix just library in Saudi Arabia. If you compare the number of films available to Netflix queues in Saudi Arabia with those available to Netflix uses in our two states is about one quarter of the number of films are available. Now, Netflix is haven't really produced next nation of this huge discrepancy. Maybe they've been served with multiple legal notices in the past. But it does look bit less off sensitive to new well it does. But then of course, if anyone's ever flown an airline if you've ever flown on a Middle Eastern airline. You've watched some of the movies that are available on their chances. Are you've watched an edited version of that movie? Without even realizing it is are we perhaps being a little bit too. Harsh on Netflix. Have we have we expected a little bit too much? I mean, it's it's nice to consider that Netflix might take a stand. But is it realistic to consider? They take a stand when when Twentieth Century Fox Warner Brothers. I mean, I think you make a fair point there. In fact, just now on John was talking. I was reminded of you know, in the days before the internet and the possibility of streaming, you know, it was the done thing by Hollywood studios to excise scenes in order to get films exhibited whether it was in Saudi Arabia. Whether it was in Russia, whether it was in western Europe. I mean, the, you know, well, a little old Manouche names that would take off the movies during the jury Nazi Germany, and and you know, I mean, gay themed certain religious stuff. So that's an old game that Hollywood has to play because it's a business I in an art second. But having said that what I think in the reason we're probably discussing it aside from the sheer size of. Net. Netflix is that the internet was about freedom and crossing borders, and ideas crossing borders or something that was in a sense sold to us as a kind of subversive thing and up to a point it was and then China started cutting off this should search engine, and you know, some other place cut off that search engine and suddenly it wasn't so free anymore. And I think what we're what we're looking at is. You know, that reality has caught up to the distribution of ideas on the internet. I'm won't even say content or the Netflix would call it content. You know, that we're losing that that promises long gone, and we're talking about Netflix. I guess because it's just sad to remember that the promise of the internet was everything would be across borders. And it's just not going to be the case the information superhighway, of course, has if you towards it does same. We are running out on an running out of time. But Finally, I would like to get to this final topic. Because it is quite good news. If you all like. Me and have decided that twenty nineteen will be the year when you finally stage that musical that's been hunting away at the back of your mind. Well, you might be in luck. Because for the first time in twenty one years, a large collection of works have been passed into the public domain following the expiration of the copyright. It means that many works that were first published in nineteen Twenty-three. They now be freely. Staged adapted watched all listen to without legal restrictions now that delay was due to an act that was passed in the US back in ninety eight that added twenty years to existing copyrights something that's apparently unlikely to have that happen again in the near future. John is that's a good thing. The these books will come out a corporate. Yes. That is a good thing. Let's get to excited. I mean international corporate law is a complete dog's dinner. For example, we have some of the works of the Christie have just about a copywriting. Actually, if you are a British Rita of the Christie. You still can't legally read those because. Under British law. The corporate ODI lapses seventy years after the death of the author not the publication of the work activities died in ninety seventy six so that's twenty forty six. You can't hall the soul your problem by going to New Zealand where the laps is twenty years. I'm in twenty twenty six you can read everything that Agatha Christie ever wrote. So you can play games around the different interpretations of copyright worldwide. It reaches with Surjit, for example of the moment, you can read some of the indoctrinations of Proust's work. But you can't yet read the French original for a few years to come. So you know, we get tied in knots. Yeah. Well, you know, I I'm going to. The the headline on all of this is Robert Frost's famous and short poem stopping by woods on a snow evening is one of these works that is now out of copyright. And I I'm been working on an opera based on this one eight line poem. I think I'm going to write it who's woods her these. I think I know he lives somewhere in the village though. And Ben might want to help me find a way. Much further down the road. I just came up with that idea when I was writing the script for tonight's show brick. No, no, I I think I think there will be a lot of adaptations. I mean since nobody's writing original work for Broadway anymore. There's going to be unfortunately, Sinclair Lewis, the these social realist, novelist of the twenties and thirties who's got a lot of work coming out now under this copyright changing. I don't know if I wanna see bap at the musical, you know. Well, that is the topic of my stage musical adaptation, but I have to say I was fairly excited. When I first read about this news, but John have rod you've managed to really dampen. Some of my hopes and dreams there on perhaps won't be making my musical here in Britain. I might have to head to New Zealand to work on that one. But indeed that does bring us to the end of today's program big things to I guess today. John Everard and Michael Goldfarb. Today's edition of Madari house was produced by Bill Ludi. It was researched by page Reynolds. And Nick money's I'll studio manager was Christie Evans. Stay tuned. Fulsome more music next at nineteen hundred hours. It's a brand new episode of our business program. The entrepreneurs with Daniel Bauge in the jam Madari house is back at the very same time tomorrow that's eighteen hundred he in London. I'm Ben Ryland. Thank you for listening.

President Trump Ken Mitt Romney Taiwan president Netflix government US John Washington Post Michael Goldfarb Saudi Arabia Trump Senate Ben Ryland John Everard Midori house Beijing Saudi government London
The Friday News Roundup for October 26, 2018

1A

1:28:28 hr | 3 years ago

The Friday News Roundup for October 26, 2018

"Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from internet essentials from Comcast. Connecting more than six million low income people to low cost high speed internet at home. So students are ready for homework class graduation and more. Now, they're ready for anything. This is one A. I'm Joshua Johnson. Visiting Georgia public broadcasting in Atlanta. It's hard not to think of what could have happened. If just one of the explosive devices mail to critics of President Trump had detonated this week. They did not injure any of their targets or even reach them. They were stopped by police bomb. Squads or intercepted at mail processing centers, and some of the people targeted are speaking out against these acts of politically motivated violence a few hours after a pipe bomb addressed to John Brennan, the former director of the CIA reached its destination. Brennan spoke to an audience in Austin, Texas. I recognize that there are a lot of raw emotions and feelings in this country and very strong feelings for individual political parties as well as individual politicians, but this country was founded upon the foundation of freedom and liberty liberty and freedom of speech and. If I and others being targeted because we're speaking out, and we're living up to our responsibilities as citizens, I think that's again is a very unfortunate turn of events before you listen to today's podcast, please bear in mind that it was recorded on Friday, October twenty six at ten A M eastern time to say in that. Because by the time, you hear this story could have moved which is why we also recommend you keep an ear on your local NPR member station and an eye on NPR dot org for the very latest. Thanks for listening. Support for NPR and the following message come from hinge hinges the dating app, that's great. At one thing setting you up on great dates, and they're not just saying that on hinge three out of four first dates lead to second dates. They are the number one mobile first dating app mentioned in the New York Times wedding section. So if you're looking for a BFF a job a pen pal or a hookup hinge isn't the place for you hinge is exclusively designed to get you out on great dates download hinge in the apple store or Google play. Hey, I'm Sam Sanders. I host an NPR show called it's been a minute. Every Friday on the show talk out the week of news because sometimes the best way to process everything going on right now is through good conversation. Download the show, and we'll process everything together. Joining us here at Georgia public broadcasting in Atlanta is Cathy Lohr journalist and former correspondent for NPR news, Kathy. Welcome to the roundout. Glad to be here. Joining us from GP in Macon, Georgia is Adam reduce a journalist in residence at Mercer university's center for collaborative journalism at an welcome. Joshua. Thanks for coming to Georgia and back at our home base in Washington is Eugene Scott a political reporter for the Washington Post. Eugene thanks for making time for us. Thanks for having me. We love to make time for your questions and thoughts about this week's big story. So E mail us one a at W A M U dot org. Comment on our Facebook page where you can also watch our video stream or tweet us at one eight let's start with this series of pipebombs that have been sent to high profile targets across the country before we dive in big caveat with a fast moving breaking story. Like this. What we know? And what we have confirmed debunked clarified is changing constantly it may change by the. Time. It's out of our mouths. So please be sure to keep an ear on your NPR member station for the very latest in an eye on NPR dot org. But for now, let's talk through what we know. On Tuesday, a pipe bomb was delivered to the mailbox of billionaire philanthropist. George soros. What initially seemed like a disturbing and potentially deadly out. What outlier got compounded through the week as more pipe bombs were mailed or sent by courriers all the targets were top democratic figures from LA to New York's Washington Hillary and Bill Clinton, Barack Obama Joe Biden Eric Holder, the former attorney general democratic California congresswoman, Maxine Waters, former CIA director, John Brennan and actor Robert deniro. He's been a very vocal critic of President Trump as have they all at a rally in Wisconsin. The president initially called for civility within the US. Reversed course, early yesterday morning blaming the news media for reporting, his often, incendiary statements and cited the coverage of his comments as the cause for this. Still unfolding situation. Cathy, Lohr, let me start with you before we get into politics of all this. Let's just talk about the nature of this kind of investigation. You were here in Atlanta back in nineteen Ninety-six when the bombings happened at Centennial Olympic Park with Eric Rudolph talk about what you saw that time. And how that might relate to the way we look this investigation. Well, first of all the Olympic park bombing was after a series of other smaller incidents, not some not so small that Eric Rudolph planted bombs at several clinics where abortions are performed and bombed a clinic in Birmingham, which ended up killing an officer and actually causing serious injury to one of the nurses there. But so these the thing about it is it took a a a longtime years for the federal authorities not to decide what the bombs were made of they could see and they would say there was a pattern. But to figure out who to tie them to where the materials came from. I think they're probably a lot better at it. Now, they have more ways to track it, and there is a bombing signature they use whether it's black powder or dine March something that's easy to to get to. So they have a lot of information. But again, once they even tracked down, Eric Rudolph at took five years, he flew and and fled into the woods in it took five years to to get him. Actually. Yeah. It's it's interesting. Eugene Scott that from the nine hundred ninety six Olympic park bombings to now. We were in a pre nine eleven world of time in a post nine eleven world. Now, the NYPD is has a well-deserved reputation of being a leader in these kinds of investigations Eugene where does this investigation stand right now in terms of figuring out what kinds of devices these were and who might have sent them. What it seems right now that investigators are being pretty tight lipped as far as what they're making publicly known in part because they want to prevent copycats from. A happening. And also they want to make sure that they're able to see if there are trends in threads that could reveal who is behind this right now. But but more than anything else there appear to be more questions than answers, and investigators are certainly trying to work with a political leaders to create a situation and environment intone where hopefully this does not continue in these things stop, especially as we head towards midterms yet. Eugene yesterday, the officials with NYPD and FBI and so forth were pretty necessarily tight lipped. It seems like we're beginning to get a picture of the pipe. The the roots that these pipebombs may have taken including a male facility in Miami Dade County is that right? Yes, certainly has that has been the case in especially as people have been focusing on the bomb sent to democratic lawmakers in Florida and fussy return address from Debbie Wasserman Schwartz a democratic lawmaker there as well. There's a lot of focus and attention on. What is happening in Florida answered some thought that investigating that state could provide more answers quickly. Let's talk about some of the comments that the president made this morning. The president tweeted very early this morning kind of in response to the political discourse around the suspicious packages. Just after midnight eastern time this morning. The president tweeted quote funny. How lowly rated CNN and others can criticize me at will even blaming me for the current spate of bombs and ridiculously comparing this to September eleventh in the Oklahoma City bombing yet when I criticize them they go wild and scream it's just not presidential unquote. What do we make of the rhetoric atoms surrounding V suspicious packages from the president and from elsewhere? Yeah. I mean, look it's pretty rich for President Trump of all people to criticize anyone for not maintaining standards of civility the are conducive to a peaceful. Public discourse. Right. It's pretty rich. But frankly, I also think it's pretty rich for cable news outlets to do the same. I think that they are complicit in a breakdown in civility and discourse in this country. Perhaps not as directly night is significantly as the president has been as of late night is acutely. But it's a factor. That said, I'm not even sure if any of this is the right conversation to be have having around these particular. Packages, which I think we don't even know if they actually were bombs a nonetheless, they're certainly devices or packages intended to terrorize people in an open society, it's pretty tough to control whether or not you're going to be the victim of violence or attempted terrorism. But it is up to all of us to decide whether or not we will be terrorized, and I think it's important that we don't especially perhaps those of us in the news media who have been the targets of some of these packages. I think it's important for us to not give one person one potentially one person whose motives, we don't understand. Too much power to terrorize us just as if a person from Saudi Arabia tries to applaud plane, we shouldn't freak out about everyone of Middle Eastern descent, and there's a giant class of civilizations between the Islamic world and the Judeo Christian world don't freak out try to keep it in perspective. It's one person. We'll find out more as investigators find out who it is. And what's going on Kathy had love to get your sense of the speculation on a potential motive. It seems kind of like this is a raw shot test for everyone's views on President Trump in a way. Those on the left say this is a natural consequence of the president's rhetoric. Those on the right say that it might be an activist on the left looking to smear conservatives and make President Trump look bad. We should not speculate. At least we on this program because we don't know we have no proof of this just yet. But I wonder Kathy if we just kind of take a moment to first of all be grateful for the people who just intercepted those bombs before anything really bad happened. And I think very grateful for that. Because whether we don't know or not what kind of damage they would have done, whether you know, they would have exploded. Although it's you know, pipebombs e no matter what they're made of or not a joke. I mean, it is it is a serious threat. It's intended to intimidate create fear. And I think it is intended to create fear among critics of President Trump. Also, just want to say one thing Joe Biden yesterday said at a speech, he gave words matter. And that is my feeling is that you know, he said this division this hatred. This ugliness has to end. And I really fall on that side Eugene any sense of how this might be playing out in terms of the campaign trail we are few weeks away from the mid terms. Of course. Well, we did see the. President condemned violence, and the divisiveness that exists in stop he had earlier this week well shortly after the first bombs, but as we all also have seen he's appeared to reverse that and social media, he has quite a few more stuff's to make before election day. He's been arguably the most effective get out the vote initiative that the GOP has right now. And so there'll be a lot of is watching to see how he continues to respond to this. Glad to get some of your responses to all this Michael tweeted, this is just this just further reinforces that people solely look for media that confirms they're already set beliefs. How do we break out of this and show people that those you disagree with are still human, Adam? Boy, I don't know I think the technologically enabled fracturing of media is a really released significant factor in the status of our public life right now. Now on the other hand. I'm not sure that it's the causal agent. It might be a corollary. I think that you know, we can talk all day about the norms of civic discourse breaking down but beneath that very real trend are actual substantive policy disagreements between Americans differences in fundamental values that are really really wide, and we're perhaps papered over for a lot of years by the media monoculture. And now we're able to see them for what they are. I am personally kind of amazed that more political violence doesn't happen in the United States, given the depth of these differences. I don't think it's just in how we talk and who were talking to and who we're listening to I think a lot of what we're experiencing here is about fundamental differences in what we believe to be important in life. And what we want government to do taffy. We had fundamental differences. Forever in what we believe in? But I think this increase in rhetoric, I think demonizing people making people your enemy making the news. The enemy of the people has made a difference. And I think that people don't generally talk to each other anymore. There's not enough people that go I mean because of because of my report I talked to everybody, but I will ask people did you vote. Why did you vote who did you vote for people? Don't talk anymore. They look at their phones, and they are in their little bubble and Eugene, I think it's important to note that and I don't know if you encounter this working for the Washington Post, but certainly I do on a program that's on NPR is that the people who comment on our show are not just our fans or critics. Listen to understand that idea about the division. But if you hate NPR so much how do you know, what we said on one eight to criticize us if you hate the Washington Post so much. How do you know, what was printed there to criticize it? Yeah. And quite frankly, I think that that behavior is exemplified most from the president himself. Who really hates CNN, but seems to watch a lot of it. And and I I'm blown away by how many people are engaging us who don't want us to do what it is that we're doing, and and it's unfortunate because I think we all need criticism. The media needs to be criticized we need to be held accountable. But we need to be criticized. Well, so that we can serve the public better. We're going to keep moving from the story again just a quick caution. As you listen to the coverage of the story over the weekend. Please just remember that the story is moving really really fast. We're going to try really hard not to jump to any conclusions about what has happened. There's already been some details of the story that have had have been clarified or walked back. So that's common in fast-moving. Breaking story like this keeping air on your NPR member station for the latest and an eye on NPR dot org. A few more of your comments before we move on Matt emailed. If Trump is responsible for the bombs are Democrats responsible for the shooter at the Republicans baseball team practice both. These statements are untrue. Believe Matt's referring to the the congressional baseball game. Which Republican congressman Steve Scalise of Louisiana was injured. Philip emailed the suspicious packages may have originated in Florida, but the perpetrator or perpetrators are not necessarily based there. The Unabomber lived in Montana, but traveled to Utah and the bay area to physically male his devices in order to deceive law enforcement. All right. Let's keep moving on with some other stories in this story continues to move in the next few minutes. We'll certainly let you know. But let's talk a little bit more about politics, particularly with President Trump. He was at a rally this week in Houston and he made headlines for a different set of remarks. Listen. Is a person that wants to blow to do. Well, frankly, not caring about our country so much, and you know, what we can learn it sort of became old fashioned. It's called a nationalist. And I say really we're not supposed to use that word. You know what I am? I'm a nationalist. Nothing. Eugene, Scott, I wonder if we can get to a clear definition of this term here. What exactly is a nationalist? I mean is this. I is it typically considered to be what President Trump says it is. No, and neither has globalist. According to President Trump to to be charitable, a nationalist is just someone who puts America first. But the reality is anyone with a historical context of nationalism knows that it is a worldview embraced on other rising that has led to, you know, genocide in violence, and separating people not like yourselves from spaces that would give them rights that we deem essential and important to human beings. And so Trump, you know, early in his campaign really distance himself from the term nationalists. When we saw Steve Bannon associated with it primarily because the the form of nationalism that was most familiar with. Bannon and the Breitbart community, what's that of white nationalism, which we've seen, you know, sweep Europe and even in hate groups in the states. And so it's it's been it's been deemed by most people to be problematic to see Trump embrace it while misrepresenting it put him on the receiving end of significant criticism. Adam Roussy, I'd love you to chime in on this. I know that you are a stickler and rightly so for precision in language, and I wonder what your take is on the use of the word nationalist versus say patriot, particularly because words, like nationalist often heard in phrases, like white nationalism globalist has -tations of being anti semitic. Give us parse the words parse the language for us here. I mean, I think you gene is already done a pretty good job of that. I'm a little bit mystified by this whole story. The the idea that for President Trump to say, hey, I'm a nationalist is remarkable is kind of nuts to me America. First. His secondary campaign slogan is a perfect crystallization of nationalism. It's for him to put a label on it is I think totally inconsequential. It would be like if President Trump got in front of a group of people and said, hey, my hair is kind of weird. Well, duh. We all know that I suppose it's sorta remarkable that you said it, but you know, it's it's it's a truth. That's right in front of us. I think a lot of why the comment has gotten the tension is that. Yes. As you gene said nationalism has really really bad track record in the twentieth century of leading genocide and world wars on the other hand. I don't I think that some people have been rounding nationalist up to. White nationalist. And that's a pretty big trip. Now, you could make a very cogent argument that President Trump is functionally a white nationalist in terms of his rhetoric in in terms of his policies. That's a that's an arguable point. But he didn't say, I'm a white nationalist. He said, I'm a nationalist. And he is manifestly. So I don't get why this is a big deal. A few of your comments about President Trump's word choices. Mary HALE emailed when Trump recently called for unity. He did. So in a tone that is clearly not his usual one. It is as if he was saying to his followers. I don't mean this. But they're making me say it, his actions and words soon after showed that he really didn't mean it Michael emailed. I've been hearing a lot about President Trump's rhetoric in regards to this bomb scare what about the calls for action by leading Democrats such as Maxine Waters, the chicken when they go low and harassed them in public crowd now on Tuesday at the White House, President Trump defended his remarks, here's what he said. So I'm proud. I'm proud of. Our country, and I am a nationalist. It's a word that hasn't been used too much. But I'm very proud. I think it should be brought back. I'm somebody that wants to help other countries of the world. But I also have to take a win to take care of our country. We cannot continue to allow ourselves to be duped on military and also duped on trade, Kathy, Laura, I wonder how much you buy into this kind of the word Smith of this word nationalist, Matt points out on our Facebook page. The definition of a nationalist is a person who advocates political independence for country. For instance, a Scottish, nationalist. I remember when John McCain campaign for president in two thousand eight covered his campaign when he came through south Florida, his slogan was country. I it's I think it's all part of that. Although, you know, in this day and age, you would think with the climate in this country, it it it's a little bit different to use the word, nationalist. But I think this place perfectly into Trump's strategy of revving up his base right before the midterms. And so he's people his base are wanting to hear America. I and this is what they're getting. And since we're talking definitions. I know that this is H E public radio trick, but I want to marry him Webster. I'm looking at it nationalism definition one loyalty and devotion to a nation, especially a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups that's the top definition of nationalism. Courtesy of Mariam and Webster, a group of several thousand Hon Durance are headed to the US border on foot and President Trump says he wants to stop them reports suggest he is weighing shutting down the southwestern border denying attempts from people seeking asylum from Central America. The Pentagon has a plan to deploy hundreds more troops to the border to help with security operations Eugene, I wonder what we make of this story, especially because it's coming right up close to the midterms depends on which tied of the owl. Your fall. Right. I mean, they are. There are conservatives. Who are alarmed I mean, this is one of the many issues that the president campaigned on when he announced that he wanted to lead this country back in June of twenty fifteen there are people on the left though, who of course, are concerned about, you know, immigrants coming to the US seeking asylum. But they want people to realize that they are still more than one thousand miles away that this is a community that it's not anywhere near the threat that the president suggests they are some of the unverified statements about Middle Eastern, you know, perhaps terrorists seeping into the crowd or whatnot. But. A bigger concern. I'm bigger question right now late it's pivot that we've seen reported in the Washington Post is that the president seems to be entertaining something somebody to like an executive order that would prevent these immigrants from coming to the US to seek asylum, which is in direct opposition to how things have worked in this area in the past. And so it's it's a very polarizing issue. I think if if he does that there's going to be well, they feel you is our and other groups are already working into a challenge to that. Because that's just not it is not the way that the US works, and they went we work with immigrants that are seeking asylum in this country. Also, there are a number of information leaks to move on from that story. Some information leaks that are still causing trouble for the Trump administration this week memo shared with the New York Times shows that the US department of health and human services is considering a change to the definition of the word sex under title nine secs under this change would be determined by one's genitalia at birth. That would roll back a change to federal law that many says more inclusive of transgender people the memo, according to the New York Times says that HHS will determine gender quote on a biological basis that is clear grounded in science objective and administrable, unquote. Adam this change in language, at least as I see it is not purely semantic. There is a difference between sex, which is an observable biological characteristic at birth and gender, which is an identity. That's the very meaning of what it is to be transgender to have one a person who sex at birth, and whose identity do not match this seems like he potentially big deal for US policy, and there's a further level of distinction here, which is that if we restrict our conversation to sex that is biology. Do we determine that sex is something that can be reassigned through surgery and hormone therapies, hormonal therapy is right? There's lots of American law that has recognized that concept that a person can actually change their biological sex through medical intervention, and there's a question as to what a policy like this would do to people who have done or intend to do something like that to say nothing of the sociological this phenomenon the social construct that is gender which only loosely correlates to biological sex. This is an other kind of frustrating story from Joshua because what we've got the the the root of this is a New York Times article about a leaked administration memo and the New York Times did not publish this leaked memo. They published an article about it that had a few direct quotes from it. And a lot of those direct quotes actually lacked either the word sex or gender the word sex or gender occur in the New York Times is owned copy. And I would love to see how those terms are. Used in the memo itself because the New York Times article almost team seemed to use them interchangeably in spots, and that was really confusing to me, and I would like to see if that's a confusion that is in the memo, or if it's a confusion that happened in the writing process over at the times, I'm sorry. I I guess I'm the media criticism guy. But that's I I don't I don't even know. What's what the story is yet? Because I haven't seen the memo and that frustrates me. You know, that's that's a worthwhile point Eugene. And I guess, you know, that's kind of the challenge of of reporting on both of these stories the immigrant caravan, which is still kind of a possibility the potential change the has policy, which I guess is a possibility because it's draft and also the president's tax plan, which will discuss momentarily that these are ideas that have been floated that may or may not be real yet. Absolutely. And I think one of the reactions we're seeing to these ideas, and I wrote about the transgender issue earlier this week is that many people are assuming the worst based. On what the president has administration have done in the past on issues related to transgender Americans LGBT Americans as a whole and emigrants. And so I think a lot of times people who have wanted to hear more from the administration and give the president the benefit of the doubt have felt like his critics have not been operating in good faith. But all his critics have is what has been said and done in the past. And a lot of times that it's put them in a position not to believe that whatever the president is trying to do in his vision of making America, great does not include their groups as well this week. The New York Times reported that Google protected three executives over the past decade after they were accused of sexual misconduct yesterday. Google CEO admitted that the company has had a sexual harassment problem. The company says it's fired forty eight employees in the last two years for sexual misconduct now, this topic is related to Monday's program. It's part of our series, the state, we're in and. We'd love your help this year a number of states debated so called me to legislation that would strengthen protections against sexual harassment. If you have been sexually harassed or abused and felt like the laws in your state did not protect you. What went wrong, or perhaps what did the laws in your state do? Right. Leave us voicemail. Eight five five two three six one. A one a Tennessee, California. Maryland, Illinois, Arizona and many other states passed new laws this year. What is your state done to protect you from sexual harassment or abuse or has the law? Let you down tell us your story. Eight five five two three six one a one a or you can use our app won a vox pop to send a radio quality audio file and to keep up to date on future, topics. We'll share some of your stories Monday when we wrap up our series, the state we're in on. On one A. Let's get back to the Friday news roundup conversation with Kathy Adam and Eugene Eugene, this is not the first time. The Trump administration has targeted the transgender community who's this ban on trans people serving in the military that's working its way through the courts of reality star. Caitlyn Jenner published in opinion piece this week in response to this proposed change in the definition of sex by HHS in the Washington Post. She wrote, quote, the reality is that the trans community is being relentlessly attacked by this president the leader of our nation has shown no regard for an already marginalized and struggling community. He has ignored our humanity. He is insulted our dignity. This is politics at its worst, unquote. Now Eugene we interviewed Caitlin Jenner on this program, some months ago, and she said that she knows that a lot of conservatives are not very trans friend Lee. But she appreciates at least being in the room and being able to talk to them about trans issues. I also had to push back on her a little bit because she knows that people in the room. Clearly do not want her there. What do you make of her comment? I mean, she can't be surprised by the president's actions on this. She just can't you know, it's been really fascinating. She is arguably one of the most visible transgender people in America and has actually been criticized significantly by the transgender rights community because she does not seem to be deeply informed about the political history that the community has been fighting for the idea that she likes to be at the table. Almost implies that no one has tried to be at the table before her. And and the the administration has been criticized by the broader community perhaps for not being a boat advocate of the transgender community and Jenner has been critiqued for appearing to have just noticed that one of the things I'm most fascinated by. I think this story right here reveals how people in. Different identity groups can listen to the same candidate and walk away with different things Jenner and road in that Washington Post op Ed that she back Trump because she heard him include LGBT communities and his speech at the Republican national convention. She saw people applaud and so she thought he would advance LGBT rights social conservatives voted for Trump because they believed he would reverse LGBT writes that perhaps went farther than they would have liked them to go in the Obama administration. So it's just one of those amazing moments about how different Americans here different things. Let me get to a few of your comments before we keep moving Kirk emailed. When was the meaning of gender change to reflect a psychological state rather than a physical identity gender has always been polite and more specific synonym for sex and his routinely used as such on birth certificates. It seems that what we're talking about here is more accurately described as sexual identity rather than gender itself. Kirk I'll take this one on. Actually, that's not correct. Your sexual identity has to do with the traction gender has to do with identity. Sexuality has to do with who you see yourself with gender has to do with who you see yourself as one more story related to the TQ community today. The remains of Matthew Shepard are settled in their final resting place at the Washington National cathedral shepherd was brutally murdered twenty years ago in the in October of nineteen ninety eight by men who targeted the twenty one year old university of Wyoming student for being gay. His death was a wakeup call for many Americans to violence against LGBTQ people today ceremony drew hundreds to the cathedral for musical event that included several of shepherds favorite songs, including imagine by John Lennon. Let's get to some more of your comments, including about the refugee care event. And to be clear. I think I'm spoke earlier and said that the caravan is a possibility the caravans real the true plan is real it is possible that the caravan might not get to the border by may have misspoke. When I brought that up. Brian emailed is this column of potential immigrants really such a big deal. It's not like they're trying to sneak in their coming up to knock on our door to ask for help sounds like they're following our rules and tweeted, can we please start calling the caravan what it is a group of refugees fleeing communities destroyed by two thousand nine military coup with which the US had a hand also want to acknowledge lots of your commenting on this idea of nationalism. Let me read a few of your comments there. Irrepressible youth tweeted a quote from George Orwell nationalism is hunger for power tempered by self deception. Daniel tweeted, why did Trump use the word nationalist instead of saying he was in America? And Matthew tweeted or Matt's tweeted, equating nationalism with white nationalism seems akin to the right rounding socialism up to Stalinism both sides are talking past each other more and more and demonizing their political opponents. Let's talk about economic policy. The president made a statement to reporters this week that he will propose a new ten percent tax cut for the middle class. The president was somewhat vague in his timing for this to happen. But said that quote will do the vote after the election, Cathy Lohr. I'd love to get your sense of what this means whether this was just something to say during the midterms or whether it seems the president really has a plan to continue making more tax cuts this I hate to say this. But I don't think he has plans. I think that it is playing to his base maybe trying to expand his base because the original tax cut that he promised. I don't think has helped middle-class people as was promised the first time. So maybe this is an effort to do. So it's an effort to get people. GOP voters out for this election in Adam. How do you see it? I I don't think that we should even be talking about it on a news program until there's something more substantive for us to talk about an actual policy. There's everything about this is just so unserious right now. And I think that if anything that we are playing into the president's political gambit by even acknowledging the existence of a plan that isn't even a plan to to to bring it back to what we were just discussing with the migrant caravan. Making its way through Central America. This is another place where I think the way that we are talking about it is inherently complicit in. In reinforcing, a really unrealistic and politically craven view of what's happening four thousand people marching from the northern triangle countries under us, Guatemala, and El Salvador through Mexico, hoping some of them hoping to reach the United States. This does not represent any kind of significant uptick in the number of people seeking refuge from these increasingly violent countries. They just happened to be in a big group. It's more or flex of a change in strategy among people trying to make that journey whereas previously they had tried to do it in small groups to try to not be noticed that made them vulnerable to all kinds of hazards along the way. And so there's a new strategy to try to go and openly and one big group. That's all that's going on here border patrol apprehended about one hundred fifty thousand people from the northern triangle countries in two thousand seventeen that's just the people that they caught right? This is not a significant number of people. And therefore, I'm not even sure that we should be talking about it that much. We should be talking about the broader phenomenon of migration from Central America and US complicity in destabilizing, those countries and causing the violence there in the first place both from from nine hundred eighty s proxy wars with Russia funding civil wars there to drug policy today. That's the bigger issue. The caravan is not the big issue. And I don't not sure we should be talking about it. I'm sorry. I just got us off track. I was going to say though, but but to me that's why we have to talk about it. We have to provide context we have to fact, check it. Because if we don't talk about it there, so many media outlets out there who have no sense of obligation to be responsible with how they communicate about these topics and just continue to spread lies and myths, and this is the problem. We're seeing right now with how media is consumed all social media Facebook in particular, and just so many things are being said that are completely untrue. And to your first point. I completely agree. We should acknowledge their. Is no plan even discussion and place for middle class tax cut. And that's from Republican lawmakers that's from White House aides and what the president's doing which we should say, it's he is actually acknowledging that the tax cut his his party originally passed did not work for middle income Americans. That's why he has to make this whole thing that that it's leaving Republicans very confused about what it is the president's talking about. And if we don't call that out, quite frankly, Republican conservative media will just continue to report that Trump's going to give you this thing that nobody even knows it's happening. It was mind blowing literally watching him say next week. Congress is going to do this thing that congress could not do because congress wasn't even in Washington. Session right now, we are in Georgia here GP in Atlanta. We'd be remiss to come to this wonderful state without talking about. It's fascinating race for governor democratic candidates Stacey Abrams met her Republican opponent Brian Kemp in a debate here. Gpk this week the race for governor. In Georgia is pretty tight at this point. Let's get some perspective from Greg blue Stein, political reporter for the Atlanta Journal constitution, he is traveling with Kemp campaign. Gregg, welcome to one A. Thanks. Were there any big highlights from the debate that we get a sense that either MS Abrahams or Mr. Kemp won that debate. And why they're playing a very distinct audiences basically this stage in the race. It's all about energizing their bases. And both of them were looking for ways to do exactly that Brian can push back on any sort of allegations that he's trying to suppress the vote and said he would not resign from office. And not only that he said he would continue to direct a state recount if that's needed between 'em and Dave Abrams talked about some of her core campaign promises including Medicaid expansion. It's your closing argument. And actually to be honest job opening argument to she's talked about Medicaid expansion from the moment, she got him the race last number down in Albany, Georgia. So that that's pretty much where we are in the race. And right now, they are Chris crashing the state going to places where they think they can energize their supporters the most and we should be clear the issue with camp resigning offices because Kemp is currently Georgia's secretary of state and secretaries of state oversee elect. So he is in an election. And also the state official who technically supposed to oversee the election that he is in now under Kemp's watch one hundred seven thousand voters were purged from the voting rolls last year for not voting in the previous election this year. Fifty three thousand voter applications were suspended seventy percent of those seven zero percent of those suspensions dealt with black voters last Friday and attendee in an event for Kemp called Georgia professionals for Kemp leaked this audio of the secretary of state, listen. We were on. Literally, millions of our they buy out. A lot of that request. A number of that which something that. Especially her by us the next day why? But. Vote can't. We got out all set I wonder Greg whether that leaked audio has had any impact on the campaign. This far. I think it has because it's been used by Abrahams campaign further mobilise her supporters. She says that's essentially Brian own words saying that he's concerned with democratic turnout Ryan campaign on a chance to talk to him about on the campaign trail, some more. He said this is not a gaffe. That's exactly what he was saying. He's actually been seeing variation is on the campaign trail, essentially that look Democrats are trying to get presidential medal turn out in these midterms elections. And if they do that Republicans don't do that they were cut your win. So he's trying to wrap up his supporters the same way, and they way this is this is this has been the race being tire last year and a half. Both these Kennedy's are speaking to their basis a lot of people in the in the middle who are sort of centrists might not have not how the home before we let you go, Greg. There was also some news about Stacey Abrams this week from her college years during her freshman year at Spelman college, which is a historically black all women's college back in nineteen Ninety-two. When Abrahams was at Spelman. She was photographed burn. What was at the time. Georgia's state flag and at the time. Georgia's state flag included the confederate battle flag. It's viewed obviously by many people to be a symbol of white supremacy. Abram says she stands by her actions, her campaign released a statement that read in part, quote, students engaged in the ultimately successful effort to change the flag, unquote. Greg has this had any kind of impact on voters reactions to her? Well, she's addressed as well at the debate on on Tuesday. It was one of the first questions that came up. And she says the same thing was a permited protesters peaceful and that eventually about a decade later resulted. It helps US Open to change the state flag. What we're seeing two more mostly though is sort of misinformation we're seeing headlines being bandied about about her burning the state flag without noting. It was the it was the confederate emblem not that you know, that she was protesting and not necessarily, you know, Georgia itself. And so her campaign is pushing back on that and remote. Ending folks the burning was was a protest of the confederate battle emblem other states like and not of Georgia as a whole. Greg bluestone political reporter for the Atlanta Journal constitution, Greg. Thanks for talking to us. Hey, things for one more story before we go this week. Starbucks opened its second cafe in the world for customers who are deaf or hard of hearing the location of the cafes in Washington near gala debt university which has been teaching deaf and hard of hearing students for more than one hundred fifty years, everyone who works at the cafe is fluent in American sign language now if you don't know any sign language, here's your sign language lesson for the week, stack your fists on top of one another now move your top fist in a circle over your bottom. Fist. That's the American. Sign language signed for coffee. All right. Take your right hand laid over your heart. Now move in a little circle that's the sign for please. One more take your right hand. Put the tips of your fingers near your mouth, and then lower your hand in front of you palm up almost like, you're presenting the palm of your hand. That's the sign for thank you. And we say thank you to Adam reduc-, a journalist and residents. Mercer university center for collaborative journalism out of thanks for talking to us. Hey, it was my pleasure. Eugene Scott political reporter at the Washington Post. Thanks Eugene, thanks for having me and journalists and former NPR correspondent, Kathy Lohr. Thanks, kathy. Great to be here. We'll dive into the international section of the Friday news roundup in just a moment. This episode is sponsored by curiosity stream. If you love documentaries than curiosity stream will be your new happy place from the founder of the Discovery Channel. Finally, a streaming service for nerds where you can binge. Watch shows on science history nature and more with over two thousand films and series and apps on most devices, there's truly something for everyone. Try it for thirty days free at curiosity stream dot com slash NPR and enter promo code NPR. This is Terry gross. The host a fresh air. We do long-form interviews with the people behind the best books. Pop culture journalism and more. So you can get to know the people whose work you love, you'll find fresh air on NPR one or wherever you get your podcast. Joining us to help make sense of this week's big stories from around the world is car and demerging reporter at the Washington Post who covers defense and foreign policy. She joins us from our home base in Washington car and welcome to the roundup. To be back. Joining us from NPR in New York is Ravi Unger. Wall managing editor at foreign policy magazine. Ravi. Welcome great to be back and joining us from the BBC in London is Michael Goldfarb. The host and creator of the podcast the first rough draft of history. Thanks for being with us. Michael. My pleasure. Let's talk about Saudi Arabia to start the round up. It again has changed its version of events as to what happened to journalists Jamal kashogi the country's public. Prosecutors said yesterday that Kashoggi's killing was actually premeditated. That's an about face for the Saudis previously. They claimed he was killed in an impromptu unexpected fistfight Jamal kashogi disappeared after walking into the Saudi consulate in Turkey more than three weeks ago. Saudi officials I claimed he left the consulate then they claimed he just vanished. Then he they claimed he was killed accidentally while resisting Saudi agents. Now, they've said that his killing was premeditated car and demerging. Why did the? Saudis change their story. Again. Why are they saying that this attack was premeditated? Well, that's the question, isn't it? Right. So if this is just what I'm sure the Saudi version is which is oh, we're investigating keep finding things out. Okay. That's one thing except for that really doesn't ring as plausible because they have been under enormous pressure and scrutiny and criticism from the United States for each of these explanations. They've put out as finite indefinitive. I that he left the conflict then that it was an accident. Now that it wasn't an accident. That's premeditated. The story keeps shifting and that is is reducing trust in the Saudi credibility and Saudi relationship. Frankly, the United States with every time the story shifts and changes, you have basically at this point, the vast majority almost everybody in the political strata of the, you know, the national government saying, look, we really think that this. This was clearly premeditated and orchestrated all the way up to the top of the Saudi Saudi government. You have an ask out to the president to basically take a look at every. All the way up to the crown prince and think about applying sanctions, and the one person has to be convinced about all this is President Trump who is also shifting frankly. He originally said, sir, I found the Saudi explanations credible and in the last week or so has been saying it doesn't really seem like it's passing the smell test anymore. But this the stakes are more than just the right and wrong about this case. I mean, the US Saudi relationship is is is a one that goes into security, it it has to do with geopolitical INC is it's worth hundreds of billions of dollars, and that's probably a low ball estimate. I mean, this is a and it's a bedrock of Trump's policy for the Middle East. So stakes are incredibly incredibly high and depending on how the president chooses to handle it. And depending on how many more pirouettes we see from the Saudi government. It could really be shaken by by the way this results. Now Ravi Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman made his first public comments about this case during a large investment. Conference this week. It's this conference that some refer to as DAV Ohs in the desert Davos being the city in Switzerland where the World Economic Forum takes place with extraordinarily rich people talking about the economy here is part of what the Saudi Crown prince said during this conference. This was a very very painful incident for all holidays. Also everybody in this planet. Was unnecessary. So the Rabiah will go on implement all necessary rules. I investigate deeply in order to achieve result. To bring to Justice those responsible for this heinous crime. And they will be put before called. There's no doubt that was Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin soman, you're listening to an interpreter, by the way. But those were his comments his first public comments about this case during that massive investment conference. That's come to be known as doves in the desert Revie, how likely is it that the crown prince himself knew about this attack. Well, all signs seem to point that something that was this big. That would be an operation conducted by several operatives inside the Saudi consulate whether they actually were people who were flown in as has been claimed by the Turks are whether they were rogue operatives as this how these once appeared to claim that now seemed to backtrack a little bit on either way all signs point to the fact that the crown prince would have had an inkling of it. And if all our would have ordered it. But if not any of those things he still comes out looking really bad because if this happened on his watch without him knowing anything that's just as bad. Surprising about those comments. He made at the conference two things really one is that he seemed to be dealing with this. And speaking of it almost as if it was at arm's length as if he's angry, but not that angry, and as if he wants to investigate, but really not that much because it has been three weeks already, and as we've been discussing they've kept changing their position. But the other thing that was surprising off to those comments is that he received a round of applause, and that is a sign of the people who were there, the investors at the conference, and they included the likes as we know many companies had pulled out many government officials from around the world had pulled out. But the ones who were there were all ones who needed a Saudi cooperation and investment you had Lebanon southern really a prime minister who was briefly kidnapped by the Saudis. You had Jordan's King Hussein who really needs investment from the Saudis as well. And you. Had Ron Khan of Pakistan, the new prime minister who before he went to this conference was asked why he was going and he said, quote, we're desperate and he came away with six billion dollars. Well, let's kind of when I'm wondering Michael Goldfarb in terms of the outcome of this. And whether this is as some have posited, a disaster for Saudi Arabia Michael emailed when considering what punishment if any to administer the Saudi Arabia? It is important to remember that Saudi Arabia is more than just a supplier of oil. We need the military bases in the region far more than we need their oil. Michael. What sense do you have of whether or not this is as some have put a disaster for Saudi Arabia. But I think that's getting way out in front of on skis. If you don't mind my saying, so and I think unless I'm wrong wasn't Treasury Secretary. Steve Mnuchin there. I believe so. You're saying that Ravi had listed some some foreign visitors. And it seems to me that that's the key one for American listeners. Look. Toe actually going back. I hate to cut you short Treasury Secretary was going to attend. But then announced last Thursday that he would not attend the copays. We ended up nuts. Right. Good. Because what's happening? I mean, what's happening is tight baritone and Turkey's drip-feeding bits and pieces and every time he drips a new piece of of the horror that happened in the Saudi consulate the the Saudis have to change their stories, and it's no surprise that. After CIA director, Jean the hassle visited a few days ago. And is reported to have heard the tape of the execution yet. Again, the Saudis are changing their story. But look I've been around a long time when it comes to Saudi Arabia reported from Saudi Arabia. In fact, my visa was arranged for me by Jamal kashogi who was working as the press attache in the Saudi embassy in two thousand and three when I was trying to get in and nobody gets into to report on their own in Saudi Arabia. It's closed place. People need something from Saudi Arabia. It can be basis it can be oil. And when you deal with Saudi Arabia. We we often see in in good reporting. It's kind of a futile kingdom, and there's some mediaeval aspect of it. The one thing I remember vividly from fifteen years ago is that it defined for me. What feudal is within the ruling family. Nothing gets him because they are truly absolute monarchs within Saudi Arabia. So it's you know, you have to take all this into account in the late eighties Britain. Sold a whole bunch of arms, and it was like a decades-long deal, and it and it was called the al-yamamah deal. And it was clear from the start that there were no payoffs to this member of the Royal family and pales to that member. And you know, and this was in. I guess the first trunch of weapons was sold in eighty five eighty six eighty seven and in two thousand four hundred five the the Serious Fraud Office finally started to investigate what was happening. And then it was killed by the government because you know, this is the way business is done when you deal with Saudi Arabia, you're dealing with a government. Unlike any other that we do a lot of business with so I my guess is that you know, they will try and wait this out for as long as they can they will hope that the Turks. Turkish government does not release the sound of Jamal being tortured to death and dismembered and. We'll and they can wait it out. And then six months from now, it will be I wouldn't say business as usual, but it will be business resumed. Darren emailed the US Saudi relationship. Make no mistake is a relationship of shared interests, not a relationship on shared values whatsoever. Brian emailed. Of course, it's deplorable that the Saudis murdered this journalist. Is it not also deplorable that we are profiting from the sale of weapons being used by the Saudis to kill Yemenis. Those are two things that we have discussed earlier in this week. We spent a whole hour on Yemen in this kind of proxy war taking place. There we discussed that this weekend. You'll find that conversation and every segments of every broadcast online at the one A dot org. That's the word the the number one the letter A dot org. The United Nations estimates the group of migrants heading on foot towards the US through Mexico currently has about seven thousand people travelling north that number fluctuates course, this group of migrants has become the target of President Trump and other Republicans during the upcoming midterms Carin, what do we know about the folks who are in this caravan who are they where did they come from? And what made them start heading for the US border. Well, for the most part they seem to be migrants that started off in Central America that have been moving up through Mexico that are heading to the US Border. And this is something that has been organized kind of make the point of the plight of the migrants that I have been trying to travel a very very long way to get to the US border, and are seeking to come to the United States for either reasons of economic attraction, or because they are fleeing some sort of threat, and this is sort of thing that happens every day unless organized fashion it's become though a weapon for the time. For for Trump to us in advance of the midterm elections. Say look at all these scary people coming towards our border. There might be middle easterners in there. You know, how do we know that they aren't bad people in that group, which is just to quote, his terminology us, and this is kind of poking at the that that the existing tension that exists in this country between people who are sympathetic toward the people who want to come to the United States for various reasons of personal safety and economic instability and everything else, and those people who think scary, outsiders, don't let them in this place real well with Trump's base Trump is trying to whip up his base in advance of the midterm elections because the Republicans need to hold on for dear life to make sure they keep the majorities in both houses of congress because house, especially seems like it's quite likely to flip to Democrats, and that will be a problematic for Trump in the last two years of his first term. So it is classic. It's a very emotional issue for people on both sides of this issue. And this is a classic politicking for. How it's being portrayed right now. In in on television on the is is we're what two weeks out last you mix away from the point at which everybody's going to cast their ballots feeling how they feel about you know, the issues that affect the country and how the president's grappling with them. Oh, hey before we continue talking about the caravan. I'm sorry. I forgot to clarify something earlier in what we were discussing Michael Goldfarb raised the point about Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, and we clarify that he did not attend the conference this so-called Davos in the desert that is true. But just to be clear. The Treasury Secretary did meet with Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman on Monday in Riyadh. He did not attend the conference. But he and the crown prince did meet one on one earlier this week on Monday. Just by way of clarification, roughly, president troops sent tr-. President Trump sent troops to the US Mexico border during the spring Defense Secretary James Mattis has authorized deploying eight hundred more troops to the southern. Order. Give us a sense of what role these troops might be expected to play there. And how that might factor into this whole saga regarding the caravan. Well, it really is as Karoon was pointing out a apply of sought to play into the political debate here in the United States about these migrants making their way to the to the United States, and the whole notion of securing the borders also is a strange one on this. Because I mean, if you look at who these migrants are and what they're escaping from. They are tired. They are hungry. They're escaping a countries like Honduras, and El Salvador and Guatemala where they're escaping violence. They are extremely poor. They as they are walking up north towards the United States of their agenda and their hopes and dreams quite clearly is to try and seek asylum in the United States why because they think that they could have better lives in the United States. They think that chill. Children would have better lives. And really there is no great testament to American soft power that you have essentially all around the world people who want to vote with their feet and come to the the United States and settle and have children and have better lives extensively. And so the troops are part of this larger Trumpian, and I guess Republican rhetoric to play into the the idea that the migrants who are coming are coming as sources of great danger. When in in fact, if you look at the pictures of who they are and how they're coming in. They are anything. But and I also do want to point out Karoon mentioned that President Trump alluded to the. Or mentioned that these migrants are Middle Eastern well for one there's actually no evidence that points to the fact that they could be Middle Eastern. But perhaps more importantly, he was using a Middle Eastern as a slur of sorts, which which we should we should just clarify vice President Mike Pence, it said that there it's possible that mixed in with these thousands of migrants from Central America. There may be a few dozen who were Middle Eastern. And might have, you know, nefarious aims for the country. That's exactly right. Thank you for the clarification that. But the point I was getting too was that the use of of of of Middle East, and as a slur is extremely dangerous because it it it it then tries to create the impression that being the least and means you're dangerous. So that you're a terrorist. And that too is a dangerous loaded way of looking at a as Karoon was pointing out again a movement that happens very often. You know migrants from from those parts of the world often try to make their way to the United States. And the reason why this has become a big thing right now numbering in the thousands is because it has been politicized here in the United States. Michael goldfarb? I wonder if we should be careful with the language we use to describe this large group of people a number of you have commented to us about that with these terminology including the use of the word migrant Maria rights. I am Honduran. I was born and raised in Honduras. I came to the US to study. And now, I live and work here. This quote, unquote, caravan is a cry for help a cry of desperation from my people who will risk their lives to escape the extreme poverty and violence that I know is real the are indeed refugees seeking refuge. Please don't blame them blame the corruption that has rotted the Honduran government, and Doug and Anthony tweet they are not migrants. They are asylum seekers words matter. Now, Michael merriam Webster is my go-to in terms of use the English language merriam Webster, defines a migrant as one who migrate such as a person who moves regularly in order to find work, especially in harvesting crops. A refugee is one that fleas, especially a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution. What do you make of the words that we're using to describe this John Joshua's as you've been talking about this? I suddenly had Woody Guthrie's old song about about a group of migrants being sent back to Mexico in the nineteen thirties and their plane crashed and they were called deportees. It's a beautiful song. You look it up and listeners should straight to YouTube after the show and give it a listen. There are many versions of it. Yeah. You, you know, look, I, and I do think that in this case there is a distinction. You know, we. Have a human wave coming out of sub Saharan Africa and the horn of Africa towards Europe, and it's had a stabilising effect on politics here as well. And I would identify most of these folks as has being migrants as opposed to people who come from countries which very much as a result of American policy not just in the nineteen eighties. But you know, going back, you know, well into the twentieth century where these small Central American countries were often just fiefdoms for United fruit company and other American concerns, and the political leadership was essentially put in place to favor these American businesses that you know, these folks really probably are refugees, particularly from Honduras where there's tremendous violence, and poverty, and what's required. A wise a wiser government in Washington. And for that matter in Mexico City would have. Tried to find some regional solution to making it safer improving the economic prospects in Honduras, El Salvador, wherever and I make the same argument over here. I mean, one of the things that we have here in Europe is we we see it as a European problem. We're being invaded or something like that. But you know, the Mediterranean, isn't that wide? It's not as wide as the Atlantic Ocean. And what's really required is a regional solution that reaches from the southern tier of Europe across to North Africa. And then deep across the Sahara to try and root out the organized by this point, it is all organized over here by gangs, and they recruit people say, what will you give us a thousand two thousand three thousand dollars in some village in northeastern Nigeria and we'll get you to Europe. And then they end up, you know, one hundred and fifty people in a boat trying to get across from Serta or. Tripoli to Italy, and you know, many die, and it's a criminal activity, and you have to use different words. I think for what's happening here in Europe. And what's happened with this March? I'm sorry. Hold on just one second. I just want to stick with Michael for one second. And then I'll get to you in just a moment KARN. I since you brought up the Mediterranean that gets to something that I wanted to ask you about. And let me bring up before. I forget it frankly because in Europe this anti immigrant mood resurfaced again from the leader of the Czech Republic. Who spoke to the guardian this week aren't dry Babich suggested that thousands of police officers should be on standby in the Mediterranean ready to guard Europe's borders, he said there are seven hundred thousand illegal migrants, they need to go home. Now last year there were six hundred thousand non EU citizens were found to illegally be present. In the European Union. That's down from a peak of more than two million in twenty fifteen but still quite a lot of people Matt emailed where does it say that anyone can enter any country without the permission of the government of said country. We choose the circumstances of entry Michael I can only imagine that it makes the rhetoric very different in Europe. In the US because as you mentioned for all the talk of a border wall here in Europe. It just seems physically so much more impossible to stop people from crossing borders. Well, we could because we have the Shing agreement in which twenty-seven not Britain. But the rest of the EU have open borders. Once you get in get in in Italy, or in Spain or in Greece has happened to, you know, in two thousand fifteen and that's an anomaly that was the that the Turkish government let every little the refugees from the war in Syria just kind of flock into Europe there were trying to score political points. And I fear that the check the check premise was doing the same thing, you know, two or three years ago when Italy did not have a populist right-wing government. But had you know, pretty kind of technocratic bog standard leftist, not even left us. Centrist government, they begged the European Union for concerted action to help them with you know. These thousands of people just turning up and having to you know, they've been kept on Sicily and on some of the southern islands off the coast of Italy and help came there. None. And now it's being exploited in a very hypocritical and cynical way by these new nationalist populous to take an office in the last two or three years. And you know, this has been a problem to that goes back for decades used to be that people just took the short the short ride from town Jere in Morocco over the straits to Gibraltar in southern Spain. I mean, that's you know, that's not a very far distance at all in. Now, we've got this other problem. But again, the main the main thing is that you have people who have nothing. You are coming from countries with very large families and often, you know, one son, it's usually amount will be selected, and, you know, everybody clubs together their money, you go if you can get in and get started than one you can wire money back to us and to you can establish residency. You know? And this is how the game is played. And it, you know, if politicians were serious in Europe, it could be dealt with the larger questions about in what you do with these countries south of big, you know, the big G seven countries, and how you ride the desire people is that that's a different question. Big one. Let me give Karna chance to chime in quickly before we keep going. I just want to interject on the terminology point just because I think the point that is important to to make which is that there is no perfect word. And we can't the reason that we don't use words like refugee in the situation. Like, one of your callers suggested is because the words have legal obligations behind them. And technically speaking when you're talking about somebody the act of fleeing. Okay, you can use sympathetic terms. But we were talking about the active coming into a country, which is what is really at issue right now, if these people have not been specifically persecuted for some sort of racial thing religious thing political beliefs and then like that technically. They're not a refugee, and if we use that term. It means the United States has to offer certain protections that we might not be ready and willing to offer asylum seekers is a better term migrant is a term that seems to be free from any sort of legal constraints, but we get into this debate. And we're talking about, you know, do you call immigrants illegal or undocumented in all of these things are problematic because they're not very very accurate, but just to make the point of why we don't use sometimes more sympathetic terminology. 'cause 'cause it it puts a legal burden on the United States that we're not ready to pick up yet. Before we keep going. We should talk a little bit about the ongoing worldwide debate over technology and privacy, Apple's CEO. Tim cook spoke at a European Union privacy conference in Brussels on Wednesday. He had some critical words for his competitors. Back in Silicon Valley. Listen, we had apple believe that privacy is a fundamental human, right? But we also recognize that not everyone sees it that why today that trade has exploded into a data industrial complex our own information from the everyday to the deeply personal is being weaponized against us with military efficiency. That's apple CEO. Tim cook. Speaking at a European Union privacy conference in Brussels on Wednesday. Cook also called for a comprehensive federal privacy law in the US similar to what exists in the European Union Ravi. Let me come to you. The the wonder what she think of the over. Hall. Message of Tim cook speech, the CEO of apple we heard him refer to the data industrial complex, which has been a phrase. It's been quoted fairly often in the days since he spoke kind of hearkening back to that idea of the military industrial complex of the prison industrial complex. What did you make of Cook's remarks? I thought these were really strong woods and coming from tech. See, oh, perhaps the strongest we've seen so far. Now, what he didn't say in that speech. Was he didn't mention Google. He didn't mention Facebook. And that's perhaps because I mean, well, he doesn't want to go that far. But but also because apple is a business is quite different from Google and Facebook apple doesn't it's not in the the ad tracking business the way Facebook and Google both. Aw. But I think what all of these companies know collectively is that whether they like it or not regulation of some for some form is on its way it's coming and so at some level of the other they have all endorsed g. EDP are which is Europe state at protection Bill, and I think they're beginning to imagine that some version of that will at some stage be implemented in the United States. And the only question there is what kind of language will be in that what it will entail. And and I think what cook has tried to do in this speech. Again, very strong words and his visit to Europe is to try and come out ahead of it knowing that this is going to happen anyway to try and appear to be one of the early tech supporters of potential data privacy laws in the United States. We should be clear also GDP are as the general data protection regulation. It's this e u area law that protects the privacy data privacy of individuals within the EU or even the export of their personal data outside the e u if you noticed in the last few months that a lot of the websites, you go to have had these pop up saying, hey, we use cookies on this website. We may be tracking your information click here to accept. That was those websites complying with GDP. Are that's why they all had to begin putting those pop-ups on those sites. Another story about privacy that caught our attention the British newspaper. The telegraph published an investigation on Tuesday into a wealthy businessman who was accused by multiple employees of racist and sexist mistreatment. The story had the headline the British metoo scandal which cannot be revealed. That's because the accused was granted an injunction against the newspaper to prevent it. From publishing his name. But then this happened at Britain's House of lords affiliates. Mud juicy on the parliamentary privilege to name Philip green as the individual in question, given that the media have been subject to an injunction, preventing publication of the full details of a story, which is clearly in the public interest. That was the voice of Lord Hain or baron Hain of Neath in. In the British house of lords using British parliamentary privilege to name, the billionaire at the center of this story. Michael Goldfarb, what's behind this? What makes this such a big deal? I it sounds like it's kind of an example, clear example of the very significant differences between free speech laws in the UK. And in the US will that's certainly part of it. Just what in this particular case? Have done Senate parliamentary privileges is pretty unique tool. You can say things in parliament that you can't say outside and not so for any libel actions, and Peter Hain was working he'd been approached by some of the women who had spoken to the daily. Telegraph this. This guy Philip green is a fairly typical contemporary entrepreneur. He was knighted by Tony Blair for services to retail. He set up a series of clothing shops over the decades and made himself very very wealthy. Indeed. And apparently he was just the kind of ball. She would expect he was a bully. Andy was he sexually harassed people and like Harvey Weinstein when when he settled up there were no disclosure clauses inserted into the settlements and the difference. Of course, is that in the US, the New York Times and the. New Yorker can report that Harvey Weinstein is this and that and the details who can't get because of these nondisclosure agreements. But at least we know his name and here in Britain. It's something else. Know moving to Michael Glenn. No because I could go on about this guy forever. And I. We appreciate that go ahead KARN. It's an interesting case, really. Because of the way that the British laws are structured to say to have that that this this question of which is the greater good here. Right. Because this is a the metoo movement is already been a question of can, you know, the the little guy or the little girl in this instance, you know, stand up against big powerful wealthy, usually male. I'm employer who's pulling things at doing things that they shouldn't be doing. But because of power and influence is able to get away with it. It kind of the perfect, and it's kind of the perfect at test ground. I see I guess to see what is what society kind of values. Protecting more. Is it the reputation of the accused in this way, where NDA's can be applied to newspapers that were never party to them. Or is it getting this out in the public space? And so there's like an extra level in the UK of determining how much of a national or international conversation. I guess this point all of this is going to be in terms of does one wrong done. Affect an entire society. And how should be sorted out? Right now here in the US, we are understandably focused on the midterm elections Brazilians are focused on a presidential election. They hit the polls on Sunday to choose between two radically different candidates in the second round of voting for non Doha. Dodd is on the left. Gyro scenario is on the right and Bolsonaro holds a lead in most polls, many expect him to win the election. Joining us now from Sao Paulo is Sarah Meslin who's Brazil correspondent for the economist. Sarah, welcome to one A. Grant her having me remind us about gyro Bolsonaro. He's been pretty controversial explain to us. Why? Well, what has been a congressman for her promo duct tape now and has really become famous lasts for any particular letters that that her more for as sort of three of French has common event and minorities and earn and and and that has given her this provocative reputation that a lot of people compare him to come. But in other ways. Very much of the staffing. Thank for acreage. So I it's sort of interesting. Say an outsider here on around sixty percent of Brazilians are kind of hoping shakes up and at the country back on track. So is that why he's so popular? I mean, you know, the Brazil has had a number of issues kind of cascading issues with corruption over the years is it just kind of his outsider status has clips any social misgivings. There may be about him. Remained popular for about a year now. So he's and happened the poll, but. Expecting that. It would be kind of more. But what we saw in the first round of the election. There were around in debate. But the prefers rejected the establishment. I mean, not not that more moderate. Voted out a lot of kind of a long time and on and on governors. How hot now for not? Oh. This guy on the left. Pernando have bad Representative of a party that governed Brazil for. Wow. That helps a lot of poverty. Of government was quite popular in also oversaw massive practice. No. Economic profession and Riley crime rate, which you know, have thought he. And look. Reject that. Ceremony's Lynn covering Brazil for the economists. And joining us from Sao Paulo, Sarah. We appreciate you talking to us. Thanks very much. Thank you. Let's talk about China. Now, China is being accused of holding hundreds of thousands of acres of Muslim minority group in internment camps and holding them without trial. The Chinese government is calling these camps voluntary re education schools, but news outlets like BBC news who are covering the story are crying foul. It's done some very deep investigative reporting on this and published some new information just this week BBC reporter, John sudworth tried to gather some more information and speak to people at part of the camps. Here is a piece of his reporter in Xinjiang. Displays of police might everywhere. But there's something hit. They don't want you to see. Fences all about it. Behind these blue steel wools in fullness school is what China calls of vocational training center. But it looks more like a prison. On the corner just outside the camp fence, we stopped to speak to a family. What are you guys doing some officials tried to stop his filming? But another intervenes. But let them speak. She says I asked who the visiting. My dad he replies. That's the BBC's. John sudworth reporting from gang China. The BBC also reported discovering an enormous prison like site near the city of Dublin Chang an hour from its provincial capital Ravi. I wonder if you could chime in on this, particularly what we know. Now about how the people detained in these voluntary reeducation schools are being treated, well, I mean, there's a whole bunch of reporting that is dribbling out of the last few months, and I think the BBC did an excellent job in putt because of the access that they got to some of the people who Des, but also because they had these satellite images that that showed before enough to pitches of how much these detention camps have actually expanded over the last few years, which really shows that this is a growing project in in in for for the week or people. And what we now know is that, you know, foam of prisoners from there have have been able to tell the world that they have been suffering, physical and psychological torture in those camps entire families have have disappeared from from that region. And and a lot of this is part of the Chinese states, quote re education programs as they're calling it. But it turns out that it is something far more insidious far more worrying because of the conditions that they keeping a lot of these people and deeply worrying story that we can't get enough reporting on noth- story out of China that caught our attention that may sound funny on first blush, but it's really quite serious. According to the White House. There are some good reasons for America to be worried about China. Here's vice president Pence speaking at the Hudson institute in Washington this month, China has initiated an unprecedented effort to influence American public opinion, the two thousand eighteen election's and the environment leading into the twenty twenty president. Elections to put it. Bluntly, President Trump's leadership is working. And China wants a different American president. So in light of that, you might be interested in reports that China and Russia have been listening to President Trump's calls the ones he makes on an unsecured phone that stores his contacts. President Trump dismissed the report in the New York Times he tweeted the story is quote, so incorrect, I do not have time here to correct it. I only use government phones and have only one seldom used government cell story is so wrong, unquote. Now, the New York Times also reported that security officials were only moderately concerned because according to the times, the president was not spilling secrets because he rarely digs into the details of intelligence that he shown and it's not well versed on the operational specifics of covert or military activities car, and this is one of those stories, and I know we're we gotta move on briefly. But this is one of those that sounds light hearted. But is really quite serious. There's just so many points that are kind of depressing. You hope that the press. It would take more close attention to the finer points. Details of the intelligence he receives because it affects the decisions that he makes effecting how the United States deals with everybody in the world. And then you know, that had to have the president lash out at the New York Times for being so wrong. Instead of maybe taking it seriously that perhaps there is a, you know, the threat here coming from the foreign nations that are adversaries at want to look in. And what we do being the primary issue, not the, you know, you're not using your telephone correctly. As being the primary insult is very typical of the way, the president has regarded stories in the media that paint him unfavourably, whether that's deservedly are undeservedly in his opinion. So this is all just kind of very familiar tropes. And yet you're talking about very serious stuff. If you have the two biggest adversary nations of the United States in the entire globe. Both listening in on what the president's privy to. He's privy to a lot. He basically has more security clearance than anybody else that could be very dangerous thing down the line. If this continues. But more story that caught our attention before we go the Titanic may set sail once again more than a century after the first ill-fated ocean liner sank killing more than fifteen hundred people. Clive Palmer who is an Australian businessman and politician says he wants to replicate the ship and its journey presumably avoiding any icebergs and packing, a few more life rafts would be interested to know whether or not any of you would take this ride personally. I'm not I'm not I'm not. But maybe you want. I don't know. Maybe you are more interested than I would. Well, that's the only reason why we did at car emerging reporter at the Washington Post. We appreciate you noticing. And we appreciate you joining us. Thanks karn. Good to be with you. Rub viagra. Wall managing editor at foreign policy magazine. Thank you rubbing, thanks very much and Michael Goldfarb host and creator of the podcast the first rough draft of history. Thanks, Michael, my pleasure to Josh. Thanks also to Georgia public broadcasting here in Atlanta, you'll find more of their great coverage. GP news dot org are digital team includes Catherine thinkin Gabrielle Healy are engineers Jake cherry, you can learn more about them and the rest of our staff at the one eight dot org slash staff. This program comes to you from W A M U part of American University. In Washington distributed by NPR until we meet again, I'm Joshua Johnson. Thanks for listening and enjoy your weekend. This is one. NPR podcasts are now available on every major platform checkout. All our shows at NPR dot org slash podcast. That's NPR dot org slash podcasts.

President Trump president Eugene Eugene United States NPR Washington Post Kathy Eugene Scott Kathy Adam Georgia America reporter Atlanta Facebook The New York Times Trump Michael Goldfarb Saudi Arabia Matt Joshua Johnson
The Unthinkable Olive Branch

Power Corrupts

58:55 min | 1 year ago

The Unthinkable Olive Branch

"Hello I'm Andrew Harrison host of the funke the brand new politics podcast from the make his vra maniacs if Yuletide of pointless punch and Judy shows and politics broadcasting than the punk is for years from digital disinformation climate change from the US presidential race to whatever autumn Goldman Satanic into. We look at the big issues with honesty. At the sense of human at the very beginning trump was suspicious. Bolton who because of his mustache politics of lockdown every Wednesday morning such the bunker on cast apple podcasts. Or wherever good podcasts off out when killers on the loose we often hear politicians. Police chiefs pledged that they will be brought to justice that usually means catching them putting them in prison and getting them off the streets. The idea is to accomplish two complementary goals but they should pay for their past crimes and this should be stopped from creating future harm to tossing them in jail usually accomplishes both it kills two birds with one stone but indulge me for a minute with an unrealistic thought experiment. Imagine you're on a flight? Thirty five thousand feet up in the sky and a police officer on board has an epiphany she somehow realizes that the serial killer that she's been chasing for months is actually the pilot of the plane with a sinking feeling. She also realizes that the serial killer pilot is the only person on board who can safely. Land the airplane. If she arrest the killer on the spot and removes him from the cockpit. The plane might crash killing everyone on board and suddenly your desire for immediate justice for making him pay for past crimes conflicts with your goal of preventing future harm that tension between seeking justice for past killings and preventing future harm is what we're focusing on today. That exact dilemma comes up time and again drain regime transitions particularly when a murderous dictatorship that has killed thousands or millions of people finally collapses or gets overthrown. How do you figure out? Who are the real Nazis for example as opposed to the people who said they were Nazis to get jobs? Do you just hold the Hitler's in the Goebbels of the world accountable or do you toss the millions of ordinary Nazi party members in jail too? Is it just the leader of the concentration camp who should be punished or the guard who stood watch as millions of people were murdered as well? And what do you do if some of the people that absolutely deserve to rot in jail are the only people in the country who know how to run the government? Should you get rid of them and try to quickly train up replacements or should you try to find a space in the new society for the monsters of the past regime? Brian Close. And you're listening to power corrupts PODCASTS. Where we shine a light under the hidden often various forces that shape our world. Today we'll speak to the man who is in charge of the entire country of Iraq for a year after the former regime collapsed and some war reporters who watched the country descend into chaos and violence. We'll meet Tunisian torture. Victim who arguably helped save his country's democracy by extending unthinkable olive branch the very same people who ordered his torture in the first place. But first we need to talk to one of the world's leading experts on denotes affiliation an esteemed historian who happens to be one of my colleagues here in London. My name is Mary fullbrook. I'm professor of German history at University College London UC L. Mary has written the book on postwar Germany. And how it came to terms with its Nazi past. Her Book has won Major Awards. And it's called reckonings legacies of Nazi persecution in the quest for justice in that book. Mary argues that the quest for justice has never been straightforward because of the sheer number of people who are involved in the Nazi System Festival. It explores the way in which millions became involved in the machinery of Nazi persecution. Many of them on the side of the perpetrators complicit perhaps not pulling the trigger but making machinery work about eight point. Five million Germans. Roughly ten percent of the population had been members of the Nazi party. Nazi related organizations also had huge memberships. Twenty five million in the German labour front seventeen million in the National Socialist People's Welfare Organization countless others in the League of German women and the Hitler youth millions of ordinary Germans had been involved in making Nazism work. What do you do with all these Nazis in postwar Germany and that question was even trickier than it appeared? There is a moment in the last couple of years of the war. Basically in the very early months after the end of the Second World War where even the allies con quite agree on whether they feel. It's collective guilt all drums by Germans or whether any some germs germs and if so how to identify them how to deal with them. There are many people who went along with Nazism. Someone genuinely enthusiastic. They sort of returned full employment national greatness all the stuff we know about but there were many many people who can formed out of a sense of powerlessness because they felt they had to deciding what to do about most senior. Nazis was much more straightforward. They were the worst of the worst and they had to be brought to justice in the allied trials trying to put on trial significant individuals who could be seen as representative of certain areas whether the assess the Gestapo the onslaught group in the death squads basically with a industry the army different areas of government. So some major attempts to find out who with significant institutions groups and individuals responsible the privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes against the peace of the world and poses a grave responsible with the wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish event so calculated so malignant than so devastating that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored because it cannot survive. They're being repeated but the trials only with some of the Nazi leadership. I think a lot of the really top Nazis would dead one way or another. They committed suicide at the end of the war or they escaped evaded justice and only a few were left to be sentenced the really talk Nazis and nobody really knew exactly what to do. One proposal called the Morgenthau plan suggested punishing Germany collectively by effectively destroying its industry but there was also a big worry that collective punishment could create a backlash or some destabilizing unrest. And there was the question over how much Germany needed to be transformed should allied military leaders rewrite the textbooks used in German schools. This is from an American newsreel. At the time after the last war German education was untouched today on actually dot from this been destroyed new textbooks prepared for German U under our direction not German. After the last war in the same state officials remained in office today and they Nazi is forever barred from having a problem. There was therefore a huge tension. Between Justice and pragmatism. Millions of people had been complicit in the worst crime in modern human history. Shouldn't they be punished? But could you really punish millions of people and even if you wanted to? How would you differentiate? Levels of guilt doesn't an accountant at Auschwitz bear more or less responsibility for those atrocities compared to say a senior military general who led Nazi troops into battle far away from the gas chambers. Those were the impossible questions that the allies had to face and the head to face them immediately and then there was the central question of deportation. Who should run the Post Nazi government because the people who are running during the war the people who knew how to run it? Who WERE TRAINED TO RUN IT? Well they were all Nazis at first. It's kind of getting all the Nazis out of the positions they've held holding them in internment camps deciding how to deal with them. But then there's a very very quick shift to let's rehabilitate the Nazis. Let's try to distinguish between those who are really criminally responsible. And those who are not so bad and I think what you get is in the first year or so. After the war. A variety of different approaches developing being improvised a little bit on the spot in some cases and changing very very quickly as the Cold War starts to emerge in. Maybe nine hundred forty seven. I think a real shift in policy with respect to which is the greater evil not`some the past or the threat of communism and the president for us. The Western allies are concerned so the pendulum shift away from punishment. It's swung toward leading people who did horrific horrible things. Just get away with it rather than cleansing Germany of Nazis. It's basically cleansing Nazis of the taint of Nazism and there were a lot of jokes about this. You go into a D. Not Certification Tribunal. You bring in lots of certificates from people who say you were always good Catholic. You only join. Be Sewer family man. You were nice to do. You gave a prisoner a piece of bread. All this kind of stuff and people used to joke can call these personal certificates. So you go into the tribunal. Wearing your brown shirts you'll Nazi brown-shirt a new go out wearing a starched white shirt personal washes whiter than white. So this is what happens with do not station in the western zones it basically means that most nominal Nazis just got back into society. Rehabilitated took up their former positions. There were blanket amnesties to any Nazi. Who was born after Nineteen nineteen? Who was less than twenty years? Old World War. Two started were deemed have been brainwashed so they weren't held accountable for anything they did disabled veterans were given a free pass to denounce affiliation certificates started getting sold on the black market as people could buy their exoneration and for those who are find. The fines were mostly to be paid in the local currency which had become effectively worthless. But interesting me. It was actually in the Soviet administered part of postwar Germany. In which more government officials were held accountable? And so what happens in the Soviet as you have huge turnover personnel? Eighty percent of teachers on new teachers trained up in just very short causes a huge turnover in the legal profession. The one area that there isn't much turnover on is the medical profession because it's extremely difficult to train people to locate your appendix accurately. Not even a good communist wants to go into surgery in another good communist poking around thinking I think the appendix is in here somewhere. I'll just a little to the left. And that's the rub whether it was in a zone administered by the Western allies or the Soviet zone. You couldn't just create doctors overnight but some of the doctors had done horrific things and many of them got away with it too. If you take for example just to take one area of Nazi crime. The so called euthanasia program t fall was killing people in Sanatoria who had mental and physical disabilities. And if you look at who is actually put on trial and found guilty in relation to that program very often. It is low level nurses. It's the people who would just doing the ward round handing out poisons poisons power does mixed in with foods to children who would then die over. The next two or three days is result. They were the ones who are found guilty but the doctor who had ordered it the doctor who had written the prescriptions for these poisons would just go away so many of the higher up people just got away with it or found ways of pretending they were too ill to stand trial or whatever. This became a frequent criticism of the denazification program. One of the current complaints in the late nineteen forties was the big fish. Were getting away with it. And it was the small fry who are being penalized. So a lot of people felt in the late forties that it was the little people who couldn't wangle away out. Innovate justices easily. Who really getting penalized and those slightly higher up. In positions of power and authority commanded the material and the cultural resources to evade justice to go underground for a few years to wait 'til do not certification die down. A bitter was in German hands. There are an awful lot of cases like that where people just disappear for awhile and then repair when they think it's safe to do so. But as the threat of communism loomed and pragmatism continued to override concerns for bringing perpetrators to justice. People began to argue that it was imperative to reinstate Nazis into positions of authority. I mean that was occupied redeem in late. Nine hundred forty five that the officers are empty in the internment camps are full. We need to change that and to get the place working gain. We need to get the people who know how to run it out of the internment camp back into their office so that was in the early nineteen fifties late forties early fifties. There's a real shift to amnesty getting big Nazis out of prison commuting. The sentences making their sentences much shorter releasing them very early. So you've got a lot of very serious people found guilty of Nazi War Crimes. Being let out after just a few years in prison and so what you get in one thousand nine hundred eighty s. West Germany is not merely the continuity of personnel. That was already happening. But actually arena. Sophistication of some professions and where it's particularly difficult in my view is in the judicial profession. More Nazi judges were in position in the late. Nineteen fifties this idea that you need to reinstate former officials in order to keep the government running is going to come back in a minute when we speak about the American led occupation of Iraq but for now suffice it to say that. Mary thinks this argument in the Nazi context was based on a false premise. People Still Say oh well we need these people back so that West Germany could go on run the economic miracle insult. I think myself that is nonsense. I think that argument really doesn't stand. Up to scrutiny. If you look at the nineteen fifties you find many people who would have been perfectly competent. Who were prevented from continuing in a civil service or a legal position whatever it might be in the nineteen thirties because they were socialist because they had a Jewish family background who excluded. And who would've willingly taken on? These jobs were appropriately trained and qualified and found though pushed out because the former Nazi who had been in there before was entitled to get his job back so it is not the case that West Germany could not have run without Apollo former Nazis. Running the show. It simply is not true if you look at East Germany where they didn't use former Nazis for all sorts. Things makes it quite clear that you can train up new specialists very very quickly if you've got the commitment to do that but even if you could train up replacements for government jobs there was an even more fundamental problem. How do you hold people accountable for mass murderer when the system was by design decentralized and when there were often no witnesses from the death camps left to testify against the perpetrators they wanted to insist? The digit always been a criminal offence to murder other people so they used the ordinary criminal law definition of what it was to murder. This meant individually motivated brutal excess sadistic violence and that doesn't work when you're talking about concentration camp guards who are just channeling people through a hundred thousand three hundred thousand into the gas chambers. So if you take The trials of the nineteen sixties one of the the major concentration camp trials that took place in West Germany in the nineteen sixties. One of the serious problems walls that people got away with very lenient sentences or acquitted because it couldn't be shown that they were personally motivated to murder just doing their job. Just obeying orders was not legally seen as murder that absurd legal definition created some infuriating outcomes in which mass murderers were effectively given a slap on the wrist and nowhere. Was that more true than with the attempt to trials of the people responsible for bell. Jets death camp in which roughly half a million Jews were murdered. One particularly striking example to me is the Belgian style. Eight guards on trial. Seven of them were acquitted because Belgium. That's one of the three major extermination camps. The so-called Reinhard Camps Belge at SOBIBOR Treblinka Bell. Shirt's there were only two survivors. And one was assassinated in the first year after the war in nineteen forty six. The other one came to give evidence at the trial but he couldn't give evidence that said. These goals were brutal. Horrible SADISTIC THUG. Some I saw them kill people outside the gas chambers which would have made them a murder so seven were acquitted the eighth. It was assumed because he held a high position of responsibility. Tae must have been also individually motivated. But he got an incredibly lenient sentence because the judge who seemed quite sympathetic towards his case first of all said will hit done some service in prison in East Germany for a different crime that being imprisoned in East Germany would be so terrible. You had more than fulfilled. Your criminal. Needs she'd done your bit but also just played it down. The Guy got in the end a total four years two years of which he was deemed to have served already two years but she still had to totaled up to five minutes in prison for each person that he was found guilty of having murdered in the end denazification was aimed at a lot of people but most perpetrators got away with their crimes in the battle. Between pragmatism injustice pragmatism often went out to some people will argue that that was necessary. And that even if you could of trained replacements for former Nazis that wholesale purge of German society would have created instability. Violence even return to war. We can never know if that counterfactual is remotely true or not but what we do know is that many of the monsters of World War. Two didn't end up paying in any serious way for their involvement in the Holocaust. Such leniency comes with its own risks. Not just in terms of the injustice of it but also because it might end up sending a message to future perpetrators that if enough people are involved in horrific crimes the nobody can be held accountable after the two thousand seventeen thousand eight global financial crisis. There was this idea of too big to fail that the banks responsible for the crash were so massive that you simply had to bail them out in order to keep the economy moving and when it comes to mass atrocities committed by regimes that collapse. There's a bit of a too big to jail mentality that comes into play instead. Then there's another issue whether you can have a one-size-fits-all approach to transitions. From murderous dictatorship to a flawed democracy would what worked or didn't work in Nazi Germany in the late nineteen forties. End Up playing out in the same way in Iraq in two thousand and three fellow citizens at this hour American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger on my orders coalition forces strike. My Name's Catherine Fil. I've been a foreign correspondent for the Times. For nearly twenty years I covered the war to overthrow Saddam in two thousand three as an UNIM- bedded reporter in northern Iraq. And that's Michael Goldfarb a reporter and the host of a great podcast that you should listen to. The podcast is called F. R. D. H. First rough draft of history anyway both Michael and Katherine Recovering Arrack when the two thousand three invasion began and so we were sort of just hanging around doing nothing until the regime collapsed in Baghdad. So essentially we were on a Kurdish front against SADDAM'S FORCES. But in fact the whole thing happened so quickly in three weeks that the American forces swept right up through the country and then after the regime collapsed in Baghdad it simply evaporated everywhere else and that included most Seoul the biggest city in northern Iraq. Second City of the country and it evaporated and there was virtually no way to ever restore some semblance of order. People need to remember the first eight or nine days of the war. The weather was terrible and so nothing happened. You couldn't fly and the army couldn't move then about ten days from the time. The sound storms dissipated the US got to Baghdad and then the regime collapsed so after month. Everything was pretty much done. I must've got there by five six days off to this shift. Saddam came down so it was very sick. There were lots of US troops everywhere but not enough to prevent looting if that was still going on. So there's this chaotic feel to restore order. The United States government delegated power to a new US administration in Iraq the so called Coalition Provisional Authority or C. P. Saddam Hussein's bloodthirsty regime just been toppled and there was a new sheriff in town that after this short break. A giant things about the twentieth. Century's that it's defined by information overload. But so much foots out. There is unverified untrustworthy or untrue. That's why more people should be expanding their knowledge with the great courses plus which offers valuable objective in-depth content from professors. Who really know their stuff and they have just about everything you could imagine from Darwinian evolution understanding emotional intelligence and for mastering chest to exploring exoplanets. I've been enjoying their course called investigating American presidents it puts presidential abuses of power into their historical context from Andrew. Johnson's impeachment to the scandals that plagued delicious grant and of course to Nixon's secret tapes. Learn about special counsels and presidential cover-ups all taught by former national security lawyer who is now professor at George Washington Law School sign up for the great courses plus today. I've arranged for corrupts listeners. To get a full month free and to get it you just need to visit the Special. You are L. for the show. Just go to the great courses plus dot com slash power. That's the great courses plus dot com slash power today. It's my honor to announce that Jerry Bremer agreed to become the presidential envoy to Iraq. Selecting Jerry Bremmer. Our country will be sending one of our best citizens. He's a man with enormous experience person. Who knows how to get things done? He's a can-do type person. Hi Ambassador Bremmer how are you? I'm fine how are you? I just wanted to check with you. Should I introduce you as Paul Bremmer? Jerry Bremmer What I usually go by his ambassador. Paul Bremer Jerry is really informal nickname that used mostly by my family and friends. Bush used it anyway. Get President can do it every once in early. Two Thousand and three ambassador. Bremmer a distinguished diplomat who served in Afghanistan Malawi Norway. The Netherlands and was later. The Chairman of the National Commission on terrorism. Got A call that would change his life and alter the lives of twenty five million Iraqis so I got a call from sick day. Rumsfeld's Office on a Wednesday and I don't remember the date. It must have been the end of April. Roughly asking me to come see room. The next day about a possible was not to find something in Iraq. I can't even remember if Rumsfeld's office said anything other than it was about a job in Iraq. It turned out it was the job in Iraq and as that two weeks went on and I got briefed by the CIA in the State Department and the Joint Chiefs. It became clear what the scope of it was going to be. Some in the press began calling Bremmer the American Viceroy of Iraq. He was the most senior American official in the country. He was working to implement Bush's strategy for Iraq but on a day by day basis. Bremmer called all the shots for a year. He effectively ran the country and one of the most pressing issues. He had to deal with was what to do. With all the people that had made Saddam Hussein's dictatorship work because as was the case with the Nazis. In nineteen forty-five there was an entire machinery wrapped up in Saddam's two Taliban state and that machinery was something called the Ba'ath party deep off of Keisha was an order that came back from a Coalition Provisional Authority under Paul Bremmer. The sort of the model for it was the denazification process that took place in nineteen forty five forty six forty seven forty eight really in postwar Germany. Because the Ba'ath Party was in fact founded during the war and was modelled on the Nazi party openly. Saddam never hit that that was his model but with such detail systems. How would you separate the true believers from the opportunistic followers? You had a society in which to prosper. You had to join the party now. The problem is that the Baath party which is like the Chinese Communist Party or Communist Party under the Soviet Union in order to have certain jobs you have to be a member of the Baath Party who is for Real Nazi who can't be converted back and who was just trying to get by and as Michael Argues. There's a reason why both the Nazis and the Baathists used a political party to try to control people because it worked. It isn't that somebody comes to the door. Put some Gundy your head and says sign on the dotted line. It's that you suddenly realize you know I'm not going to be able to keep my job. Nobody's going to hurt you. It's like three other people in your department have joined. Because that's the requirement what else is the requirement. Nothing do I have to go out and kill somebody. No okay. How join and that way you keep your job. Maybe kickbacks membership dues to the Baath Party and as was the case with the Nazis what to do with the big fish in the bath party was a no brainer. You had to go after them so the. Us military gave soldiers something to help them. Identify the worst of the worst. In Saddam's regime. The deck of cards were were the top members of Saddam's inner circle. And you will see the pictures of who was the ten of hearts and who was the Jack of diamonds and so on right the way up to the king of spades who I think was Saddam himself. That's kind of the American cowboy way of doing things it's like. Oh I killed this guy and I flipped the card on. I'm like yeah I'm GonNa take his carcass in and get the ten thousand dollar reward It was childish but the bigger debate over what to do with everyone else. If you needed to take off the regime's head how much of the body needed to go to an ambassador. Bremmer told me that the decision to get rid of the Ba'ath Party in its entirety had already been made and that the scope of the D. Bath affiliation process was dictated to him by people within the administration in particular from the Under Secretary of Defense at the time. Douglas Feith day before I left for Iraq. Feis handed me the draft debates vacation order saying this has been cleared through the interagency process. And we're getting ready to issue it so the D. Bath vacation was apparently and nobody's ever contradicted. That to me apparently was worked out through whatever the interagency process was and where their faith was in charge of it or somebody at the NFC. I don't know but the draft order was according to Fife worked out before I came in and even before that in April the military commanders had already decreed the death of Saddam's party. If you go back and look it. Tommy Franks freedom message of April tenth. Which was I think the day after Baghdad fell he outlawed the Ba'ath party he just flat outlawed it. I was still running my company at that point but the official debates affiliation order complete with the texts that explained how it will be done was signed by Paul Bremmer on May Sixteenth. Two thousand three came out. I remember very late on a Friday which must have been deliberates. Came out late for us to cover it in. The media came out on a day when no one was at their offices and it simply said that everyone who was a a certain level within the Baath party would be removed from their jobs. The order was short with six. Quick Bullet points bullet point number. Three said quote individuals holding positions in the top three layers of management in every National Government Ministry affiliated corporations and other government institutions universities and hospitals shall be interviewed for possible affiliation with the Ba'ath Party and subject to investigation for criminal conduct and risk to security for some critics of the Bush Administration. That went too far but in Bremer's view. The order was remarkable for its restraint. My approach was minimalist and if you take the denazification as the sort of model this order was much more narrowly drawn than denazification vacation order. It not only attacked leadership and very large percent of the body of the party. It also said that those people who were denazified if one can use the term they not only could not have government jobs. They couldn't be active in the economy. According to the best estimates that I ever saw the debates vacation was designed and affected only the top one percent of the Ba'ath party which itself was only ten percent of the population. I mean the numbers were twenty seven million Iraqis. Two million members of the Bath Party twenty thousand of whom were affected by advocation. So it's one tenth of one percent of the Iraqi population much more narrowly than that of course during Saddam's brutal dictatorship Iraqis couldn't freely express their opinions especially about politics so it was unclear exactly how they would react debate location. You know we started opinion polling in September. Two thousand three. We pulled about every three weeks or so from then till we left in June and June. Two Thousand Four. The debates decision never pulled less than ninety five percent approval rating never once. It was the single most popular decision. Now you can argue about. How good the polls are you gonNa be a lot of. You know if it's ninety five percent. Maybe we should say it's only ninety percent But it was the single most popular thing we did. Which tells you exactly how people felt about the bath party doctor saying well it's good. We've got all these people who were only there because they were in the Baath Party and so we'll be able to get rid of them but there were signs of trouble and we had other people saying this is a disaster. We'll have no management laughed and the structure and one of the places are member going to was an old air force headquarters people from the former military had to write that to find out what was going on. Were they going to get that? Pensions they needed and it was just chaos and nobody seemed to know what was going on. I was trying to take testimony from people got some stories and an old man came up with tugging at my sleeve. And he has my fixing is she? Barbara Bodine one of the officials in charge because nobody knew where to turn ambassador Bremmer understood. This chaos was a major threat to stability and so he gave himself a clause in the creation order that gave him discretion to keep people in their jobs if they were needed for some crucial skill. That nobody else had. Meanwhile our Senior advisors and coalition personnel who were sitting alongside ministers and all of the twenty five ministries had my encouragement and my authority to make recommendations back to me for exceptions. And as I said. I got scores of requests. You know somebody would say well. Muhammed is the only person in this Ministry of Transportation who knows how to organize the. Hey where's the list of people who are working for us? And what is their salary that you know? There's nobody else here. Who knows anything about it so we gotta have him even though he joined the party? We need exception. I approved every single sex requested. Reach me if you were on the ground and you got a limited number of soldiers and you've got a city of two million that doesn't have any electricity eighteen hours a day and the people who can keep it going are senior figures. What you do you have to say. Okay well fine. You cheap the power station bill. Do they really know what they're doing and where this is going to go? What's going to happen to these people and you feel who's in charge a. Who's going to put this country back together? You can't leave all turn American Authority but Bremmer knew that making good case by case judgments about who to purge and leave in place would be effectively impossible. I'm aware of how difficult it is to collect intelligence honest society which is closed off. You gotta remember. We'd had no embassy in Iraq. Since the first Gulf War there were there were not people wandering around talking to people secondly to the extent we had an intelligence collection capability on Iraq. It was totally focused quite appropriately on weapons of mass destruction. We didn't get that right but that's a separate issue. So United States government was certainly not going to be in my view and I set it at the time capable of making the fine distinctions about fellow Mohammed. We just talked about had an even more startling encounter with the real life impact around e bath affiliation and the challenge of trying to separate out the true believers from those who had happily participate in a democratic Iraq. If they were only given the chance I had a translator fixer. Who maybe two months into working with me admitted to me. The he had been a senior Air Force officer and he'd been in charge of the Anti aircraft batteries during the invasion. So days before working with me he'd been trying to shoot mark complaints out of the sky but he was quite willing to come over to the other side. His hesitation and telling mate was my reaction. There were countless cases. Like this of people who were in the Bath Party? Not Out of ideology but out of pragmatism. Many of them were purged. Put in the same category as the die hearts but the situation grew much worse when the coalition handed over control of the debate affiliation process to Iraq's fledgling government in the clock forward the Governing Council is the only body that there really was available and it was a mistake that I made to turn this over to the Governing Council which I did in November so six months later what I should have done is. I should have seen that. This was going to become too highly political. That had the effect of then turning politicians in in charge of making these decisions the requests for exceptions and they broadened the implementation quite significantly so it was a mistake. What I should have done was turned it over to a group of Iraqi lawyers or judges instead of turning it over to the Governing Council so asked Paul did that just mean. The debate affiliation became a pretext for people in power to settle scores to just get rid of people. They didn't like or to purge the governments of people who weren't part of the quote. Unquote right sect. Yes exactly and that's exactly what happened. That's exactly what and administered education came to me and said you know there are eleven thousand people working. I think the various universities that have lost their jobs and they're not all real believers and so forth and so and we had to then pull back the authority and reverse those decisions and at the same time a series of other. Things went wrong because of mistakes that were made but the American led administration what the Coalition Provisional Authority did after slightly chaotic start replacement of leadership. Was they started recruiting Americans to an extraordinary junior level. So you had kids straight out of college. I think at twenty six year old kid was able to restart. The Stock Exchange have no economic experience whatsoever. He was actually twenty four years old by the way. The whole thing spun out of Control. You had totally UNQUALIFIED AMERICANS. Who would be unqualified for a junior version of that job? In America never mind that total lack of experience or exposure to Iraqi culture and the result was deep resentment where there had been a sense of relief and at the same time the Iraqi army had been disbanded and that purge created new risks to Saddam had also distributed. He's numbers of weapons in the hope of getting the Iraqi people to resist the American invasion. Which was pretty ludicrous. They simply weren't weapons that you could resist an invading army with. They did turn out to be the kind of weapons with which you can then launch an insurgency you suddenly put a bunch of men. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of men in their late teens twenties early thirties out on the street. There's no economy to speak of. What are they going to do? And what they did was to launch a bloody insurgency an insurgency that would tear bodies apart but would also tear Iraq apart and some critics of the policy argue that it planted the seeds of even more violent extremism extremism. That were still coping with today. Islamic state could not have come about without deportation because the people that joined the insurgents. These missed insurgents informing what became isis. And what MR STA sized into Syria were commanders in the buff this regime. Who really were left with absolutely no possible future or rehabilitation in a new Iraq. And who won't it power? And so a means to turn against the new sheer overlord. He'd been put in place. The problem of course is that if ambassador Bremmer and the coalition had gone too far in the other direction that would have created its own set of issues. Do you just absolve everyone? In Saddam Hussein's regime for the mass atrocities committed. Do you let some true baptist believer stay in politics and just cross your fingers that they won't try to create an Iraq that's basically Saddam two point. Oh hindsight is always twenty twenty the criticism that is often lumped on the coalition provisional. Authority is in my view. Well-deserved there were serious mistakes and the justification for the war itself was based on bad information. But anyone who tries to tell you that leaders like Bremmer faced easy decisions in Iraq. Well that's just wrong. Nobody knew how it was going to turn out. But according to Michael Goldfarb one key bit of conventional wisdom is wrong. That Iraq was a failure and that it was always doomed to fail having had my cheeks doused with the tears of thankfully Iraqis in Mosul on the first day. Any of us were there. They were in a state of total disbelief. That it had really happened because it was a totalitarian regime if there had been more security if there had been more contingency planning if there had been a few mistakes avoided it is possible that Iraq could have turned out differently but was the debate of order flawed from the outset or was it just mismanaged once it was turned over to Iraqis who were keen to settle scores. I don't know those questions are going to occupy historians and political scientists who study Iraq for decades to come. But what is clear? Is that seventeen years later. Iraq is still scarred by decisions that were made in two thousand three We're going to end today with a truly inspiring story. Sometimes drain regime transitions extraordinary. People do extraordinary things and this next story is about the power of one man to save democracy at a time when it could have easily slipped back into dictatorship. Oh Hello Brian. How are you in two thousand thirteen? I lived in Tunisia in North Africa for a few months to do research. It was just a little bit after the Arab spring that had toppled the former dictator Ben Ali and in the course of my research. I met an astonishing person. Okay I'm Saito Shannon I'm currently. Mp In Tunisia in parliament for Johnny is a big Guy. He's tall with big white beard abroad. Smile and booming laugh. He grew up poor in Tunisia as a devout Muslim and at the time. Tunisia was a secular country so much so that the former president Habib Bourguiba was known for Drinking Orange Juice on TV during the fasting period of Ramadan. Just to show that he could so there wasn't really a place for Muslim politics in Tunisia. And whether that was a good thing or a bad thing it meant that the state had to be based on repression on keeping people in line in forcing people to bury their true beliefs and attitudes so for Johnny joined a group called Nada which means the awakening or the renaissance in Arabic. Many people. They don't know they think that it's an organization only now that is awful movement. During the dictatorship of President Jacob was forced underground at some point everybody was in jail for Johnny for his part wasn't in jail instead. He started to hatch a plot to overthrow the dictator with other Islamists. Who WANTED TO CHANGE IN TUNISIA? They decided to launch a coup d'etat to take over Tunisia and for Johnny says that it wasn't done because they were power hungry because it wasn't done for the sake of our anything goes to stop any potential civil war within Tunisia. It's impossible to know whether civil war was brewing or not but it was a volatile time in Tunisia Politics Brigada. The dictator was ill and that created new opportunities if you're going to oust dictator you're best off launching a coup when they're weak but that idea didn't occur only two for Johnny and his entourage assigned to plot against Ben. Ali Was Brighi Bas interior minister and seventeen hours before the plot that Johnny was involved with was supposed to launch Ben. Ali launched his own palace coup and took power for himself. And that meant that for Johnny was caught out and exposed. As Ben Ali moved to consolidate power. I've been arrested in coma seventeenth November. They came in about one o'clock in the early morning. Of course it took away stones by house children so they took me from my bed. The men took for Johnny to be tortured now. I've interviewed saieed about this three different times already and each time he tells me about it. It's just awful. I didn't WanNa retraumatize him by forcing him to relive it again so suffice to say it was unspeakably horrific. What happened to her? They beat him left him. Hanging from a metal rod for long periods of time tried to humiliate him just about every possible thing. That could make your skin crawl. They did that to him. Particularly on the first day of his detention. I've been a victim of torture. Of course it's about twenty four hours with fourteen four percents in each team who have been exhausted from touch me so you just told me about this before. The teams complained to him half jokingly that he was exhausting them with their torture and at some point they fractured part of his spine. Apart called L five s one as they beat him with an iron rod and for the harm has been done in the first twenty four hours. But they've been through about seven days of torture. Eventually Johnny was released from prison. He couldn't walk. He was confined to a wheelchair. They told me that it's good for everybody that you could pull that you can work. You can do anything about allies and then it's good for your family and good for us. According to them for Johnny knew he wasn't safe even if he wasn't in prison so he started plotting something else not a coup but in escape. The problem was that he figured that he would rouse suspicion if he tried to go through the Tunis airport in a wheelchair with his own passport so through wincing pain. He taught himself to just grit his teeth and walk fifty meters at a time without crutches just long enough to go through the security line without anyone becoming suspicious of who he really was. I tried to train myself to work. Even if paying for fifty meters he made it onto the flight. I went to London. I applied for political strategies tissues and he stayed in London for decades unable to return home because Tunisia was still ruled by the dictator. Who had tortured him so he waited until one day something happened. The Arab spring started in Tunisia. It's spread across the Middle East too but it also reverberated to London because it meant something decide for Johnny personally that he could go home and that's when he vowed that he would try to build a new Tunisia one. That wouldn't be home to dictators and wouldn't be home to torture. Dictatorship is in my opinion. It's like a disease that we have to get rid of and democracy must pervade. I think it's extremely important. That when you have your and a is how to have peace how to have democracy and how to set of the people that it's important to get of the cycles finance in two thousand thirteen around the time that I was in Tunis for my research the National Assembly was debating something called the immunization of the Revolution Law. The idea was to ban anyone from the former regime from the dictators old regime from running for office in the New Democratic Tunisia. Initially the draft seemed like it would just sail through but then more sober voices including for Janis started to warn. The Tunisia. Might end up going the way of Iraq after -cation if they follow through with the law so he urged restraint vigil level. I think it's extremely important to avoid noticing any cycle of teeth for that. You harm them money in charge the harm you when they are in charge. So it's probably my pick but it's extended posted to work for the future generations and future generations. You cannot leave the seeds of any host by hard about cheating two of each other that we have to pretend onto this a cycle so we have to to the future sade for Johnny was a key figure in ensuring that the law did not get implemented. It was a gamble. After all there was a risk that powerful figures from the old regime would try to return. Tunisia to its authoritarian past but for Johnny figured that democracy was more likely to put down lasting routes. If you didn't give a reason for powerful excluded people to try to rip it up right away and so he did something truly extraordinary. He pushed to allow people who had been complicit in torturing him to have a place in the new Tunisia Bishop overlook in my opinion there pains and what happened to them and that they have to take the lesson that what happened to me should reach anybody and never again in this context means that you have to get some forgiveness or at least to overlook this thing for the sake of the country and for the sake of the next generation and this is not the big big deal to do for the country. He may say that. It's not a big deal but it was. Tunisia isn't perfect today. It's democracy is still experiencing some serious growing pains but it is a democracy. Something that cannot be said of other countries from the Arab spring uprisings dignity freedoms and human rights are extremely extremely precious for any citizen into look and that the important thing is that how to serve the people have to make them to imbed. Life inevitably sounds without sacrificing literally the floor freedoms and dignity of any given citizens transition democratic transition. It's not very a joke. It's not really a game. It's very very painful. And so it is a multi dimensional fight. Continue five for the sake of a better country and the battle So is there a right answer to this question? It's really hard to say. It's likely that Tunisia's democratic transition succeeded because it was inclusive even people who helped to former dictator torture people excited for Johnny. It's possible that debate vacation was the right strategy for Iraq and that it was just implemented poorly wants. It became a tool to settle scores. But it's also possible the debate the foundation was just a bad idea from the start. We can't say for sure we can say. Is that being inclusive? Toward monsters from the past does create an injustice and a sense of impunity for the future on the other hand being exclusionary towards old regime figures creates the risk of cycles of violence and vindictiveness. So maybe there's no one-size-fits-all solution but I will close with one thought. When I was in Tunisia I met a man named Kamal Morgan. He worked on human rights issues earlier on in his career but later became Tunisia's minister of Defence and Minister of Foreign Affairs. Under ben Ali's dictatorship after the dictatorship fell or gene wanted to run for president and in the end he was allowed to do so a senior figure in the old regime allowed on the ballot in the New Democratic Tunisia. And you know what happened? He at one point two percent of the vote. Maybe just maybe. That was the most effective response. Tunisian people could have given as they sought to reject the old and bringing the new. Thanks for listening. Subscribe now and if you liked the show or learn something new please rate and review the podcast on whatever platform. You used to listen and I would really appreciate it if you'd be willing to post about power corrupts on your social media as well. We rely on word of mouth to get new listeners. Next episode we're going to meet a man who is known as the godfather of fake news. A man who has written fake stories that you've probably seen show up in your news feed on facebook. We're going to meet an American troll. The person's grandma who believe everything on the Internet because they don't understand it as that's our target audience don't Miss It. This episode was written and narrated by me. Brian close the executive producer. George Madonna who also did the sound theme music by Scott Homes and a special thanks to Tom. Bagley who contributed research for this episode. Goodbye for now

Iraq the Times C. P. Saddam Hussein Ba'ath party Germany Tunisia Paul Bremmer US president Nazi party East Germany Johnny Coalition Provisional Authorit Michael Goldfarb National Socialist People's We murder L. Mary Baghdad Saddam
The News Roundup For April 17, 2020

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1:27:33 hr | 1 year ago

The News Roundup For April 17, 2020

"This is one A. I'M SASHA ENZYMES IN WASHINGTON. It's the news. Roundup President trump releases new federal guidelines for reopening the country in phases. He says it's up to governors and mayors to decide when to open businesses and schools based on the spread of the virus in their areas but without additional federal funds for widespread testing. Will this patchwork approach only allow the virus to spread further? The Department of Labor says twenty two million Americans have filed for unemployment in the past four weeks inflicting a toll on the labor force not seen since the Great Depression but three hundred and forty nine billion dollar. Federal Loan Program intended to help small businesses during the pandemic ran out of money. We'll congressional lawmakers put aside their differences and refund the paycheck protection program. Joining us to talk about the week's top. National Stories is Michael Goldfarb. He's the host of the first rough draft of history podcast. Michael thanks for joining us. My pleasure good to be here. Lisa Desjardins she's the correspondent with PBS. Newshour welcome back to one A. Lisa great to be here and David Gura. He's a correspondent with NBC News and anger on MSNBC. David thanks for being here happy here. Let's jump right in on Thursday. The White House outlined a plan to reopen the economy in three phases. Lisa tell us what is in that plan. Well the main one of the main headlines of this plan is the president is essentially GonNa let governors have wide latitude deciding what they put in place. When but this plan is three phases based on essentially whether your state has seen an increase or especially to a decrease in the number of cases over fourteen days so states that see a decrease in the cases over fourteen days the government is now recommending that in phase one. They can start allowing groups to meet in groups of ten people at a time. Restaurants can open with some social distancing but in that first phase schools would remain closed then face to if cases continue to go down in that state schools could reopen. Of course with some social distance seen schools would have to work out Those provisions you would see more social events and then in phase three you would have most things reopened however with continued recommendations at anyone who feels ill stays at home and that people practice increased health precautions. Here's part of what? President Trump said about the plan at the press conference Thursday. We are not opening all at once but one step at a time and some states will be able to open up sooner than others. Some states are not in the kind of trouble that others are in trump's head. It's up to governors and mayors to decide when to reopen their economies reversing his assertion earlier in the week that he had total authority. David how have governors responded to the plan so far all you heard the president say some governors and I think it highlights this tension that's been apparent from the beginning here between the public health interests the economic interests. And that's obviously something that's been really bothersome to. The president is all of this has has proceeded but there are a handful of governors who look at their states and the counts of illness. Their death count's there and see themselves as doing better. I guess you could say than some other states like the one that I'm in New York and want to move ahead here. See the sort of tension working out more and more in their favor. I think there's a lot to be determined here and what we saw. Yesterday was essentially twelve thirteen pages of a slide deck from the White House and the president's advisors indicating what they want to see happen. At least it has through that so well but it's unclear how all of this is going to be executed yet in this huge issue continues to be testing. And that's kind of been a through line throughout the course of this entire crisis and and certainly as the president has brought business leaders into the fold to hear what they have to say. I mean the big story this week was. He talked to a lot of CEOS who said. We really can't get back to work. We can't open up our businesses again until we know who has the disease and who doesn't and so as much as the president talks about the fact that we're doing more testing than we have been doing. Yes that's true but it's an issue of relativism until that's really right. It's hard to execute all of this so I think in these coming days coming weeks. It's going to be incumbent on the White House. On the president on his advisors to give more detail to sort of fill in some of the nuance that was missing from again that slide deck yesterday in presentation that that he and his advisors made Lisa. You heard David run through some of the things that were missing testing being one. You know the President's plan did not address difficult issues such as that. Tell us more about what wasn't in the plan. That's right. Testing is one that is that is the critical issue for that from corporate executives but also tracing its and there is a real political debate. There's a philosophical debate about whether this country wants to do the kind of tracing that has allowed some other countries contain the disease and start to reopen and in fact that didn't get a lot of headlines but Israel is that the CDC is now working with some census workers and trying to hire more to begin to do some disease tracing on behalf of this country So that is a critical part of the plan that it's not clear. Exactly how the country is going to handle their Israel disagreement on Capitol Hill over. How much we should trace when to start tracing. But that's part of the plan. That was not really delineated by the president. Lisa just to clarify something you said earlier. You said trump will let governors decide. Don't they decide regardless of trump? That's a really good catch. You're right The president had said that he believes he has the power to essentially tell this country when it can reopen or when it can shut down he he believes he has that power it from the White House perspective. He is not operating that power governors and many others including many other Republicans do not believe he has that power. So I think it's really more of a media battle right now than anything else switching gears also on Thursday. We learned that five point. Two million more people filed for unemployment benefits last week. Meaning more than twenty. Two million people have lost their jobs in the last month. Michael This is the worst unemployment situation since the Great Depression. Help US. Put these numbers in context. Well it's almost impossible to come up with because you know the Great Depression is almost ninety years ago. The within my lifetime there have been two moments when they've been real. Spasms of unemployment was in the recession of one thousand nine hundred eighty one and eighty two and in which at the number spiked To levels not seen since the Great Depression then of course in two thousand eight and the thing that makes this twenty two million which is absolutely unprecedented in the Great Depression. Yes at its peak. Unemployment was about twenty five percent but it took a couple of years to build to that from the Wall Street crushed by June twenty nine to nineteen thirty two. This has happened literally overnight. The thing that's most worrisome about this is that both in one thousand nine hundred eighty two and again in two thousand people didn't really get back to work. It took a long time for employment numbers to reach better levels or levels that were politically and economically sustainable. But people who lost their jobs went back to work with fewer protections. Earning less money and I think the best anecdotal evidence I can say is do a search and see how often the term gig economy was used before two thousand date now. Imagine twenty two million people have been thrown out of work in four weeks and imagine how long it's going to take to get them back to work and burning something like they were earning the day. They lost their jobs. And I that even more than the disease. This is the threat that faces American society. Going forward these numbers than expected to get worse next week. What do you think we can expect? Yes I mean. There's no reason to think that someone that that people will be hiring again. We've just been talking about the very loose outline for getting the country back to work. That was put forward yesterday. You know and it really was. David was describing. It was just a powerpoint presentation with nothing fixed until there's enough data gathered on the disease and it's progress through the population there. There's no safe way to really get things going and then this will continue for. It doesn't seem to me possible that this employment crisis won't continue for quite a while after the disease is world under control because yes people are Paul Krugman in fact wrote today that Say he expects savings will now increase because people have no place to go and spend their money and they're getting a little relief here in a little relief there. They'll get their unemployment checks but nevertheless there won't be some massive consumption binch in in the autumn. When we're all free to go out again people will not be willing to go out and buy a new truck. They won't necessarily this'll be catching up. They won't go after dinner a night or two nights a week. And so you're going to see UNEMPL- employment being very difficult situation for quite some time Bob. Emails from Greenbelt Maryland. When this latest stimulus bill was being debated there was a lot of talk about treasury secretary. Steve mnuchin having a half trillion dollars to us at his discretion. Can he use that to replenish the paycheck protection program for small businesses? And we'll get more into this in a bit Michael but quick response there. I hesitate to be absolutely sure about anything at this moment. Except the broad stroke and I would simply add this just as one more bit of historic information but eighteen months ago on my podcast. I interviewed Angus Deaton and down case the economics professors at Princeton University who had been studying inequality and they quote coined the phrase death of despair. Actually Michael Once you hold that thought for just a second because we want to hear that story but I do have to take a quick pause still to come the presumptive Democratic nominee for President Joe Biden who receives a major endorsements this week. We're speaking with Michael Goldfarb. Lisa Desjardins and David Gura. I'm Sasha Anti means you're listening to one A. from WMU and NPR this message comes from NPR sponsor. Legalzoom legalzoom makes it easy for Americans to set up their estate plans without leaving their homes. Don't know the difference between a last will or living trust. What about an advance? Health Care Directive. Legalzoom can help. They're not offer but you can get started quickly online and also get advice through their network of independent attorneys. Learn more about estate plans and how you can speak to an attorney for advice at legalzoom DOT COM if you're spending more time at home. Npr's pop culture hour is here to help from family friendly favorites to stream two recommendations. That will calm your nerves. You've got ideas what to watch what to read what to listen to for both old favorites and new arrivals pop culture happy hour from NPR listened and share with your friends. This is one A. I'm Sasha and Simon's we're talking about the week's top national stories with Michael Goldfarb the first rough draft of history podcast Lisa Desjardins with the PBS. Newshour and David Gura with NBC News and Msnbc as promised Michael. I want you to go ahead and finish your thought from earlier. Just quickly put the final framing of all of this discussion about job. Loss Angus Deaton announced. Case of pointed out that all of this takes back against takes place against an even more difficult background. Which is we're going through an epochal change in the nature of employment and what has happened in one thousand nine hundred eighty two and again in two thousand and eight is that employers. Use this opportunity one to you. Know get rid of workers but increasingly to automate and so there's no guarantee that the twenty two million forty filed will have jobs to go back to in the long run and that's something that we also have to consider and three hundred forty nine billion dollar small business. Loan program ran out of money this week. The Small Business Administration's paycheck protection program launched back on April third. The SBA said more than one point six million loan. Applications were approved before it stopped accepting new applications. Lisa can you remind us what this program is again absolutely? I've been covering this closely. This program perhaps more than any other was the way. Congress was hoping to avoid mass layoffs about forty eight percent of our workforce is in small businesses. So this idea was to float the payroll to borrow a phrase from Lindsey Graham float the payroll for small businesses for eight weeks. This is an unprecedented program where the federal government will cover your payroll your lease Andrew Utilities as much as you spend on that for eight weeks. It's targes alone but it becomes a grant and of course. This was wildly popular especially as we saw more and more small businesses lose their business and as you saw the three hundred forty. Nine billion dollars is now completely allotted over just fourteen days for some perspective. That's as much as the small business administration loaned out over the last fourteen years so it's an unprecedented amount of cash. But the problem is that that figure that you cited of. Who's gotten the money? One point six million of gone out. That's a lot of loans. However there are thirty million small businesses in this country. So it really does not address the problem and I know dozens and dozens of small businesses. That are waiting in line for these loans. Don't know if they got. It are worried that they will not get it and speak to the unemployment figures. Michael's talking about you asked. Will there go up next week. Yeah I feel that this program freezing will be part of those unemployment numbers going off going up. These small businesses were waiting for this money hoping to keep their employees on the payroll. Most of them now are not getting it. David is there more money coming. So many small businesses hope that that's the case so much of this policy was was targeted to keep intact so much as the government could these connections between employers and those employees who were laid off. That's really what. The design of the fiscal policy was was four. They would love nothing. More than to have more of this money available to them at least brings up that statistic. There were so many small businesses wanting for this money and attention that I've been looking at a lot this week between how quickly this needs to happen. How time is of the essence and then also just how long it takes for these things to play out customarily So how important. That policy is a result of that. We've seen the deliberations on Capitol Hill. How this has become political with Publican saying Democrats are unwilling to pass legislation. That would just increase the size of the pot or what would be available for lenders to give to Small Businesses Democrats making other demands on on how that money would be allocated. I think that the more that continues the more dispirited. Small Business owners are are going to get every economist. I talks to talks about the overriding century. Sense of urgency. That needs to happen at this point and the more gets bogged down in that kind of political morass. Look more. It's going to be dispiriting the more that it's going to it's going to lead perhaps to catastrophic results for for these small businesses. I'll say one thing just in light of what the president was saying yesterday. I mean he was speaking so much about the economy reopening and as I heard that I wondered about the the likelihood that there is going to be more money allocated here if his hope is and his expectations that the economy is GonNa flip back on and things are gonNA improve once again. I just wonder if that's going to resonate poorly with with lawmakers who who think that maybe the need for this program is going to be as acute as it was just a few days refu- weeks ago. I think that that would be incredibly worrisome. To a lot of small business owners and people around the country began receiving those twelve hundred dollar stimulus deposits in their bank accounts this week and those who don't have bank information on file the IRS is sending the money via check. Lisa tell US quickly. What was that deal with the name on the check because that caused a delay right? There's been I don't have this reporting personally but the Washington Post and I believe others are reporting that the president did mention at some point to the treasury secretary. The idea that his name could be on the check by federal law. That's not allowed but instead we understand that his name will accompany the check in some form. These are paper checks. Only other people are getting it by direct deposit This will be the first time ever that the president's name we'll see what the form looks like exactly has accompanied a disbursement from the irs. To tax payers interesting. Now let's get to some of the politics around Corona virus this week. Let's start with a move. President trump made on Tuesday today. I'm instructing my administration to halt funding of the World Health Organization while a review is conducted to assess the World Health Organization's role and severely mismanaging and covering up the spread of the corona virus. Everybody knows what's going on there. You're back in the hot seat. Lisa the president cut US funding to a United Nations special agency focused on public health during the worst public health crisis in a century. What's been the global response? Well there's been real concern. Globally the United States is the largest contributor to the World Health Fund the World Health Organization and it is an important contributor always has been a leading contributor and without that without that money especially in developing countries. There could be a real problem. There are questions on Capitol Hill. Democrats have questioned if he legally can pull back this money but it gets very complicated quickly. They're two different pots of money. One is the fees that are assessed every year for United States. Democrats say the. Us must pay those fees. The White House seems to disagree then. There is a voluntary contribution which is much more that the US also gives the WHO. There seems to be general agreement that the president can withhold that voluntary money. As if he wants so. We have to see exactly how this works. There is real concern on Capitol Hill and around the world that right now whatever. The questions are about the World Health Organization which both parties have. It's not the time to cut funding in the middle of a pandemic however the president feels differently. Why did the president make this? Move David. Well you know there there has been percolating for awhile now. suspicion in some circles that China was not forthcoming about how this virus began. And Lisa's. Saying I think that there is a desire among both parties among everyone to pinpoint what exactly happened in China where this disease. I came about You know I think there's an element of that him sort of succumbing to that scuttlebutt about what could have happened in the. Who do its job. I think another part of this is just the president's kind of historic distaste for dislike for multinational organizations and his his lack of appetite for contributing to some of the. Us has been contributing to those groups. I think what's interesting about this moment? And Lisa was alluding to this is this is an organization the WHO that at this very moment is involved in sophisticated work looking at this virus looking at potential vaccines for this virus. Doing really good important. Work is all of this progress. It's that organization was designed to do. Is this the time for us to be taking a retrospective look at what happened here? In other words. Stop or forestall what they're doing to have this small crisis this small political crisis about funding. You know perhaps have these conversations a bit later but I think what we're hearing from world leaders what we're hearing from public health leaders as well as that group does incredibly important work. Let's not ignore the fact that there may have been some problems here but again. This isn't the time that's likely isn't the time to sort of create the small tempest. That's going to that might might preclude them from doing what they need to be doing at this point in time and talking with David Gura from NBC News. Lisa Deja Dan from the PBS Newshour and Michael Goldfarb host of the first rough draft of history. Podcast Michael Let's talk about the domestic political fallout. How are Democrats pushing back against this? Move BY THE PRESIDENT. Legally and legislatively certainly legislatively. They tied up Tied up is infelicitous. They they have been holding as we as we've been talking about trying to get greater clarity about how the small business administration will disperse these personal paycheck guaranteed loans and that's important In other respects I'm not entirely sure most most of the the political news at moment coming from the Democratic Party. It seems to me and remember that I'm at a distance from Washington. Is You know they're finally trying to get some Forward Movement in their own presidential nominating process in terms of for example the WHO. I just to go back there for a second. I haven't seen any Democrats congressional Democrats making the point that you know throughout this crisis the president has been selecting groups to be the whipping boy of the week. At one point it was The Chinese government directly to the Chinese virus. His approval ratings went up amongst his supporters certainly Then it's the press is approval ratings. Go up now it's the. Who because he can tie them to China And I haven't seen any Democrats yet and I'm sure that that David and Lisa may have Knowledge of individuals who had pointing out the fact that you know whatever the. Who's position The intelligence services of the United States were briefing the president long before we even knew the words Corona virus covert nineteen. So it's not really for the. Who to be taking? The lead is for the president and his advisers and those who received those until the giants intelligence briefings to be speaking up about president. Trump now is enlisting the help of business leaders to speed up the opening of the US economy Washington. Post reported that the plan got off to a rocky start this week with many corporate executives pushing the White House to focus more on mass testing. So here comes that word again. Lisa trump has said mass. Testing isn't necessary to reopen the country. Do we know if these business leaders were able to change his mind? We don't know yet and I have to say in covering this president. You know it it. It could change today to. We could have a statement that goes one way and a statement. That goes the other way and this is why. It's a very big problem that Congress is not meeting cannot meet essentially right now because there were already was a political leadership vacuum that this country's had for some time is now a liberal leadership vacuum with the president. He is the President. He is his job to be the executive however there is not there are not as many voices from Congress that can lead. There are proposals for mass testing bills. Their ideas in Congress that they just can't have any momentum because Congress is technically not meeting right now. Democratic congressional leaders. Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer had a couple meetings this week with the Treasury Department. This comes as Congress is rushing to pass a second corona virus relief package David. What are the provisions? Democrats are trying to get into this bill. Get Democrat trying to fortify. The safety net Commander Pinning the economy. So much can At this point in time I was speaking just a little while ago about that particular paycheck Protection Act. And and and. How did the goal of that the pair prepare protect program? Rather was you know something that Democrats didn't WanNa see race that other things added to it I imagine Lisa's more specific more more familiar with the specific provisions of it. But I know that that something Democrats want is just a lot more support for those who've been marginalized by by what's happened here when it make sure that this isn't just something that is tailored for that program You know I think something of interest. This week is just sort of the breakdown in communication between the Democratic leadership in the White House and this has been a story. That's gone on for many months now but in this crisis we've seen once again that there is no regular communication between the House Speaker and the president of the United States. And that's something that in an interview. This week she downplayed. She said that every time there is a meeting between someone in her position in the United States an historic meeting. It's incredibly important But I think it's fair to say that in a crisis like that you would wanna see you would expect to see more regular dialogue and communication. Now there has been that between the Treasury Secretary and the speaker. I think that's of if you're looking for bright lights here in in sort of a bright spots here in the in the way that this crisis has unfolded that has become a fairly successful conduit. Maybe in an unexpected way I remember early on is that first fiscal bill was being hammered out. The Deputy Press Secretary Deputy Chief of staff to the House Speaker indicating how often those two leaders were on the phone with one another. I think it was like in one day to twenty or thirty times. So Gender optimism that these conversations continue at that level. But as we've seen time and time again with this administration the President can pivot pretty quickly and just going back to what you were talking about a moment to go the president talking to business leaders. There was just such an astonishing moment. I don't want to forget when the president had that briefing in the Rose Garden this week and he just began to read from a list of of executives of fortune five hundred companies and my colleagues had NBC reported how astonished and surprised so many of those executives that our colleagues were to see those names listed. We have been told that there was going to be this. Second Corona Virus Taskforce or council focused on the economy announced Tuesday of this week that never came to pass and instead there was this thing that was kind of created out of whole cloth by by the White House these groups would be advising the president that led some conference calls this week but I think it just highlights a bit of a break down here between the president and a group that he kind of relied on in the past and business leaders whom he knew in those respected. He wasn't able to to make that group come together in a way that he promised he would. Yeah that's a very interesting point now. It's not uncommon these days to have a side Gig but you wouldn't expect the president of the United States to have one. We will talk about that a little bit more in just a moment but first some celebrities and wealthy individuals are being roasted for tone-deaf posts on social media showing them quarantining in lavish surroundings billionaire. Entertainment Executive David Geffen for instance posted a photo of his yacht on instagram. As he waits out the pandemic well musician. John Mayer wrote a song a few weeks ago mocking the post while the parody song doesn't mention anyone by name mayor explained to his fans in a recent live concert online. What inspired him to come up with the Song David. Geffen who posted an instagram photo of himself on his boat saying he was isolated in the Grenadines. And I gotTa tell you. I don't know where the Grenadines are. The most offensive thing to me about this post is assuming that I know where the Grenadines are. And I don't know where the Grenadines Dr. Here's some of Mayor Song drone shot of my yacht more from our guest and from you in just a moment. Stay with us on a fifty feet. Six seven Dick's you can trap stretch your neck. See all the stuff around the I. Don't give a hick. 'cause I gotTa Shadow. It's out on owner. John Shattered. It sounded guy in the United States black people as a whole have less access to health care to education and job opportunities other groups but who do we even mean what we say black people who counts as black. It's a question this country has been trying to answer from the very beginning. Listen on. Npr's codes which podcast we're talking about the week's top headlines with Michael Goldfarb of the first rough draft of history. Podcast Lisa Desjardins with the PBS. Newshour and David Gura with NBC News and MSNBC. Now as I mentioned before side gigs not uncommon these days. But you wouldn't expect the president of the United States to have won. The New York Times reported this week. That president trump pitched the idea of hosting a talk radio show to take live calls from Americans wanting information about corona virus. He ultimately backed away from that idea. He decided he didn't want to compete with conservative. Radio host rush limbaugh switching gears. One industry being hit hard by corona virus is meat packing facilities across the country are seeing a spike in cases in Sioux Falls. South Dakota the. Cdc is investigating one of the largest outbreaks in the country. A smithfield foods meat. Packing plant has at least six hundred and forty four cases Michael. What's going on there? Well this is the way the disease works. It comes in clusters. And because there's no way of testing every American but there isn't enough testing of enough Americans you find that if one person is exposed and goes into this is why we socially isolate ourselves goes into an environment to work. Then he can be spreading the disease exponentially across a single eight hour shift. And this is and this is what happened in South Dakota how it got to South Dakota well. We were talking earlier in the hour about working backward since his take going out and asking people where they've been on behalf of the C. D. C. That's how it starts That and I think they'll be clusters like this in other places for awhile now. Something you may not have missed. These last few weeks was the sound of traffic. That's what it sounded like outside of Michigan's Capitol building Wednesday morning. Detroit News reporter. Beth Leblanc took the video of thousands of cars with homemade signs and honking horns to protest. That states stay at home order. The honking lasted eight hours. David what was the protest all about these took place in in lansing and there was a lot of frustration as you said. Just about the stay at home order. That's been put in place in Michigan by the Democratic governor that State Richard Burr who has defended that order And so you had members of these. Two big groups Michigan Conservative coalition the Michigan Freedom Fund showing up in their cars to honk and to protests. Got Out of their cars and there was a lot of concern just about that. The lack of respect for social distancing as as a result of all of this. But it goes back to what you're talking about at the top of the show again. I think this tension between the public health worry and the economic concern. A lot of people have you know I I. I'm unclear where this leads. I think it was dramatic. No from where I sit. It is it is. It is a treat in a way to be doing this. Show sort of barefooted from my apartment. That's possible in part by the fact that there really is no traffic here in Brooklyn where I live. And that's been one of the areas of this entire crisis. It's just how quiet New York City has been so that contrast is really stark. And I think that's one of the ways that that protest was sort of made effective or or made noticeable just the stark contrast that we had there but you asked earlier in the show just about the degree to which governors have been talking to the president about this and expressing their concern. I think you have that. You have some Republican governors. Who have been saying to the present. Their states are open and ready to open as the president said. Then you have a democratic governor like Gretchen. Whitmer profile has been raised in these recent weeks. Really standing fast and going back to the conversation that we had about meat-packing meat packing facilities. Things seem fine until they aren't and I think that that's going to be so interesting and so important to follow here in these coming weeks. There's going to be this. Push to reopen things. I have this fear that some businesses will open and then someone will get sick. And then that'll cause panic and another person will get sick in the business will close. I think there's a real risk that we enter kind of a vicious cycle as a result of this push to reopen businesses and. I think that's going to be against something to to really pay attention to. I think a lot of people I think. A lot of people share that fear that you just mentioned you also mentioned new. York face masks are now required to ride the subway or walk on a crowded sidewalk in New York City. Even to enter a store in Maryland or New Jersey. Lisa should we expect more states to implement orders like that? I think that's right but but I think what you've been getting not during this broadcast is that it is different in rural areas which are not seen as many cases yet it and then it will be in more urban and suburban areas. But that's right. I think even here in now the Virginia suburbs also happy that I can sit here and do this in jeans with your phone right because normally you would be right across from me. Here in the grocery stores requiring masks. Now those kinds of things I want to just one note about the meatpackers and the meat industry in this country. Something people has not gotten enough. Attention is that cattle producers in particular but also the hog industry as well has seen a very strange plummet in prices to get their animals to market and that might seem strange but one of the reasons is that processing plants have been shutting down so they're having trouble getting the beef processed on the front end even as there is increased demand on the back end. So they're sort of getting it from both sides and farmers are having a really difficult time in some areas. Prices are stabilizing a little bit in the last week. But as an example we've seen sort of the lowest amount of sales of cattle in ten years or one of the second lowest so it's very significant shift in that industry right now but there may be some hope earlier this week. We spoke with Dr. Ken Davis The C. O of New York's Mount Sinai Health System we've definitely reached a peak That peak we're plateauing and the question for us is the rate of decline. When will it really become quite noticeable but we definitely feel that we've turned the corner here? David is the worst over for New York. Everyone here hopes that that's the case. And we listen raptly to the governor every day when he has a press conference and shows the latest figures. Show that curve. I think there was some earlier this week that that was ticking down and then it picked up once again so we're still riding it but you hear from Ken Davis you hear from other health experts including the head of surgery at Columbia University. Who writes very good note to his colleagues. That's been published publicly every day. The things may have stabilized somewhat and as the president noted in his remarks yesterday. There were so many facilities that were created here in New York to deal with this crisis. That haven't been used and I think we're all in agreement. That's a good thing that those temporary beds at the Javits Center the Convention Center here in New York City haven't haven't been used. That said. I think people are still collectively holding their breath. And you mentioned masks. It was amazing to see how quickly people made maths found masks as you walk around my neighborhood you see. See Somebody without them. Yeah Yeah So. The governor yesterday said that we're GONNA go to May Fifteenth and see what happens then he doesn't. WanNa forecast beyond that my sense living here my sense from talking to people here. Is that the situation. Hasn't changed in that regard people are still very much on guard and worried and wondering about what's going to happen and talking to my friends who are doctors and emergency rooms across the country. I have a few of them. You know they tell me that. Their concern has an ebbed it all and while there might not be flawed if demand that they expected or feared. This is still a really grievous problem one. That could get worse so Again I think people are really still on guard here in New York and elsewhere switching gears. The New York Times published a story Sunday reporting a sexual assault allegation against presumptive Democratic presidential nominee. Joe Biden former Biden aid. Tara Reid described the assault in a podcast in late March Lisa. What did the New York Times find in its investigation of this allegation right? Lisa layered I think they spent over two weeks working on this story And in the end they leave the conclusions to the readers They did fine that Tara. Reid had to contemporaneous Friends of hers people that she knew who confirmed that she passed on some details of this story at the time to them now. This is a bit complicated. Might need time to unpack it at a different date but Tara Reid initially last year said that while she worked for the vice president then Senator Biden that you know he touched back of her neck that he essentially made her uncomfortable but she said that it didn't go past that then in the past month. She's now come out with public accusations. That are much more serious Basically saying that he four-stroke against a wall that even as she resisted that he essentially aged inappropriately used his fingers with her genitals. And that is. It is now an accusation of sexual assault. Okay so apparently. One anonymous person has confirmed that she said a story like this. Another has confirmed the New York Times that she said something traumatic happened. Those are anonymous sources however the Biden campaign says that the inconsistencies in her stories. Show that it's not true. They say every they're being very careful here. They're saying that accuser should be heard but they're saying that this story does not pass muster again. It's worth reading the entire New York Times profile and looking into it but they do not seem to draw hard conclusions here. They just lay out what they found. So Michael Does something like this. Go Away for Joe Biden for Joe Biden. It's really hard to say the fact that it breaks in the middle of the pandemic when this is all. We're really talking about If you're just going to be nakedly political about it say well than better now than any other time And and I also think that if this had happened in two thousand sixteen if he had challenged Hillary Clinton as I believe he wanted to It might have been more important. I don't know I think that you just have to look at the bigger pictures of what the politics are going to be in the autumn And I'm unless there's something a lot more here I don't know that this will have a lasting effect except out there in right wing. Talk Radio Land where people will be discussing the hypocrisy of liberals and me too and yet they've got a sexual harasser topping their ticket while we're on the campaign trail we should note. That Biden racked up some big endorsements this week Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and President Barack Obama Joe has the character and the experience to guide us through one of our darkest times and he'll us through a long recovery and I know he'll surround himself with good people experts scientists military officials who actually know how to run the government and care about doing a good job running the government. How much do these endorsements matter? Lisa herdal from Obama there too. Yeah and first of all that. Was this week that let's go the way these weeks. I know the I matter a great deal. Obviously we've known for some time that it was almost impossible for Bernie Sanders to overcome the momentum and the delegate gap that Joe Biden had so it might not change the outcome so much as it's very important for two reasons. One Biden needs that base to be electrical needs the sanders people. And you need the Obama people to really be excited and come out in November. Maybe more than any others Elizabeth. Warren is probably the next person that he needs with the most passionate base. The other reason is he needs to find a way to be kind of part the news and it's been hard for him to get that footing in this crisis because he he's does not have a leadership position now and he's tried to have he he cannot hold rallies but this was a way for him to show at least political strength within the Democratic Party and to get some attention David Senator Sanders and Warren previously battled Biden for the nomination. Do you think their endorsements will sway their supporters. What did they say no? I think it's likely that The pretty standard coming out the way that he did Differently than he did back in two thousand and sixteen is important. Picking up on what Lisa was saying. I mean you just can't help but do the counterfactual. Just imagine how this would have played out. If we didn't have what's happening now taking place kind of rallies that we would have seen the Biden campaign tried to engineer with Senator Bernie Sanders or Senator Elizabeth Warren who held out for so long before. She offered her endorsement or for president. Barack Obama I mean that was the crown jewel and something that he held onto held back on delivering for for a really long while. These would have been huge events in public spaces with a lot of people. I'm not sure that the resonances commensurate when these videos come out yes. A lot of people watched that video of President Obama. But I'm skeptical. That had the same effect that it would have. If this person at at a big event I do think that what it shows having these three leaders party leaders come out and do this. Is that the Party is coalescing around. Joe Biden and yes we'll be squabbling around the edges about you know. Is there enough alignment among the beliefs of Senator Sanders and former vice president? Joe Biden. I think that we heard good things. Democrats heard good things about the fact that Senator Sanders advisers and supporters are being involved in conversations about certain policy positions. But yeah it's certainly different. That's for sure so much to look for kind of these coming weeks and months. We've been talking with Michael Goldfarb. He's the host of the first rough draft of history. Podcast Lisa Desjardins. She's a correspondent with the PBS. Newshour David Gura correspondent with NBC News and an anchor on MSNBC. Thanks everyone for joining us today. We wouldn't be on the air without are amazing engineers one as lead audio engineer. Is Jake Cherry with help from Ben Privet and Rashad Young? Alien Humphries is the producer and editor of one a on demand. Gabriel Healey is our digital editor and Chris. Costano is our digital producer. Stay with us for the international section of our news. Roundup right after this. This is one A. Support for this podcast and the following message come from K. Bucks bound in support of the David Gilkey and Zaba Ulitsa Mono- Memorial Fund established to strengthen NPR's commitment to training and protecting journalists in high risk environments support for NPR comes from Newman's own foundation. Working to nourish the common good by donating all profits from Newman's own food products to charitable organizations that seek to make the world a better place. More information is available at Newman's own foundation dot org. This is one A. I'm Sasha and Simon's in Washington it's the international section of our news roundup before we introduce our panel a quick snapshot from around the World Wuhan where the virus emerged has revised its death toll up to just under four thousand. That's an increase of fifty percent. China says it has not been involved in a cover-up but French President Emmanuel Macron just joined those questioning China's handling of the outbreak much of Sweden remains open on Monday. Denmark will allow certain businesses to reopen including dentists driving schools in hair salons. And all told there have now been more than two million confirmed cases worldwide in one hundred and forty five thousand deaths due to corona virus. That's the big picture but to dig deeper. Let's welcome back to the Roundup Nina Maria. Pots director of global news coverage for Feature Story News Nina. Great to have you back. Thanks for having me. Emily Timken is here and sporting a shiny new title. Emily is now the. Us editor for the New Statesman. Emily congrats on your new job. All thank you so much and thank you for having me today and in New York. Daniel Kurtz Falen. Dan Is the executive editor for Foreign Affairs and the author of the China mission. George Marshall's unfinished war. Nineteen forty-five to nineteen forty seven. Welcome Dan thanks so much good to be here now. Microsoft Co Founder Bill Gates described the president trump president trump's decision this week to halt funding for World Health Organization. Quote as dangerous as it sounds. The International Agency is just the latest target and comes. After what's best described as mixed signals from the commander-in-chief? Daniela start with you. President trump is cutting the money the US sends to the WHOL for at least sixty days. Can he do that? So there is some dispute about How much of this money he controls and how much of it Congress is able has already appropriate and is thus able to send against his wishes but stepping back a bit in some ways. This is less about the. Who Than it is for Washington about China and the way that the US China competition has become really the defining dynamic of geopolitics and of US foreign policy so when trump is complaining about the? Who what he really wants to get at is his frustration with China. It's handling of the the virus stages so that's why he's doing it Nina. What impact could this have on the? Who separating the WHO's record as an institution the global impact of its work it's objective value as an international and to see whether it's properly equipped to lead the global fight against covert nineteen and separating all of that from as Dan says motives to that are currently propelling president trump. I mean I think it's weather remembering the. Who is not a government can't rule countries but it can guide and coordinate in the early days of this outbreak when the world thought we were only dealing with China the W. H. O. Arguably moved much faster than governments to identify the threat of contagion up. But it's true that for those of us that were covering Those early days it was definitely mystifying. Very striking that there was never any criticism for China's handling the outbreak. And we kept thinking you know given how to the window. Wise China coming in for so much praise. Wouldn't it be wise to show a little bit of caution? There are big questions over China's transparency and I think we get a very blurred picture on whether or not this is going to have immediate ramifications because there's still a not very much detail from the White House in terms of what it's planning to do we've got this sixty to ninety day review period clearly if the US also stops it's voluntary contributions to specific programs than we may see a significant a blow to the global leadership role played by the W. H. O. But I think there are big questions. Nina the WHO has been attacked particularly from the right as being far too easy on China. Is that fair? Well I mean I have to say that again from the very early days of the Wuhan outbreak those of us who were covering the W. H. O. I think we we did wonder why it was not the W. H. O. Was So sympathetic. Towards China given his previous record of burying figures especially around saws. Hiv in previous outbreaks So don't think it's unfair to question the. Who's political preference for China? In the early days it did seem to be sidling up to China and I think now with the release of this Wuhan Recount in which they've pushed the figures up by a neat sort of fifty percent. That's definitely raising eyebrows. Michael writes to us in an e mail. Please have your panel comment on the. Who's treatment of China to maintain its relationship with China the WHO has to tread a very fine line only seeking permitted information and complying with Chinese restrictions? Especially regarding Taiwan. I'm Lee. Did you want to address that? I mean thank you for the email Michael and it's a fair point again that China's misidentified whether or not this virus could spread hugh human transition. Certainly there. Is this the sort of viral interview with. Who official regarding you know where. He kind of skirted questions on Taiwan. But I think it's really important just to drive. Home for raiders. Sorry listeners that that the. Who is not the reason that trump is attacking the WHO trump's own mishandling of of this pandemic is the reason that he's attacking the WHO the United States and South Korea. This is almost like a tired thing to point out at this point but the US and South Korea reported their first case on the same day to the W. H. O. Trump spent the following month. Downplaying the threat of the virus crew. South Korea spent the following month doing trace and we can now see where the two countries are. So yes sure we can talk about the. Who we can talk about. Multilateral institutions in China we can talk about the role that trump pulling America back from these institutions. Plays as well but I think that it's important not to lose sight of as my co panelist said the transparent degree to which this is trump playing politics with a pandemic. Okay let's move on to Italy one of the first global epicenters of the corona virus this week. The European Union issued an apology for not doing enough to help Italy at the early stages of its outbreak. Here's what you commission. President Ursula von Der Lion said at a parliamentary debate on Thursday. Yes it is true that no one was really ready for this. It is also true that too many. We're not there on time when Italy needed a helping hand at the very beginning and Yes for that it is right that Europe as a whole offers a heartfelt apology but saying sorry only counts for something if it changes behavior emily how exactly did the EU Fail Italy. I mean the EU like much of the rest of the world was slow to realize the degree to which this was a problem and so Italy which was so hard hit early on at the beginning did not have the resources needed from this union which is meant to sort of it which is meant in part to step in and support the various nation states of which it is comprised but I think it should be noted now that although the EU correct as they are sharing between countries there are doctors travel between countries. An apology itself is going to be woefully insufficient if the EU does not figure out a financial solution to this and at the moment Italy is asking I shared debt relief right either in the form of Eurobonds or corona bonds and Germany. In particular has said no that that they do not support. That have sort of promise that they'll come up with some other solution unless that's solution is dramatic and progressive and adopted adopted rather soon. The sorry is going to ring hollow. I would think to Italians among others in Europe. Nina against the backdrop of brexit. Is this another sign that the EU project to struggling at the moment? I'm glad you mentioned brexit and I couldn't agree more With emily it really is a case of too little too late. I notice today that Italy has accepted the apology but one poll is showing eighty eight percent of. Italians feel very let down and it seems to have taken an epic crisis of epic proportions for the EU to to to give this rather late in the day apology. And it's something that a lot of something. Italian friends have been warning about for weeks even months that that backlash against the EU was was likely to to come soon and swiftly. And frankly a emily's says the real battle is now about to hit. Europe. Very hard that's over the US next seven-year budget finance ministers have agreed on a five hundred billion euro rescue package. The Italian government says it won't sign any plan that doesn't include shed debt among E U Nations. And we're beginning to see e you solidarity basically fall apart and this is after the EU mocked vilified unready disregarded UK sentiment about leaving over brexit. And you know you mentioned you solidarity but is it fair to say that there's a growing anti is feeling in Italy. I think certainly anecdotal evidence showing And you know some polling. The Italians feel very frustrated with the EU. And I think we we shouldn't forget the human side of this I mean. Italy is cautiously optimistic but painfully coming back to life opening its businesses putting livelihoods gradually contract. It's obviously not out of a very painful and traumatic episode and to have the EU kind of apologized. When in fact the real question is how financially is this European solidarity going to come together? It's not just about political statements. It's about the financial backing and how the EU copes with the survivor. The real way out of this crisis is actually going to be massive by individual governments spending on their own economic problems. So I think that solidarity is going to be very elusive we've talked about the EU and the WHO let's talk about the UN members of the United Nations. Security Council are trying to rally support for global ceasefire due to the corona virus. French President Emmanuel Macron said this week that he supports the plan and is hopeful that he can get Russia to agree as well Daniel. What's this all about so this started in March when the secretary general of the United Nations guitarist called for this immediate global ceasefire? And it's in one sense been been gaining momentum over the past the past few weeks you have various world leaders declaring their support for this global ceasefire but at the same time it comes amidst this tussle over. W. H. O. The sniping between the United States and China all of which is a reminder that in many ways these competitive dynamics is disarray. The system is much stronger than these better angels. Even when those better angels do with into action and what's what's more with the conflicts that are really playing out in the world today. They're not complex. That are being ordered by global leaders capitals and Beijing or Washington or Moscow or Paris. They're playing out on the ground and very complicated ways so even when you have leader saying that fighting should stop or worship stop. That doesn't mean that the antagonise on the ground are going to agree. So you had for example Saudi Arabia saying it and its allies would stop fighting in Yemen but very quickly those fighting on the ground said they weren't going to obey that ceasefire so even with this international action this move towards Some kind of global occur during this time of crisis. It's unlikely to have the effect on the ground that these leaders wanted to have emily. Russia isn't yet onboard. That's correct mccraw said yesterday in an interview that he is he believes that Putin will sign on the Russian diplomat. Oh sorry the spokesman Peskov I believe put out just the most Russian diplomatic statement which was oh our diplomats need to discuss and see how this will work before we can join but as Daniel says. Russia doesn't necessarily have control over every proxy that Russia has backed throughout like like the United States. Right does not necessarily have sort of control over the people who are actually waging war right now and further. I think it's important to note that Russia again like other countries does not necessarily own up to the Times that it does break. Treaties and agreements So you have Russia's still has admitted that it was behind the attempted murder of scrawl in the UK hasn't said that it was responsible for the downing of each seventeen over Ukraine. So you know I. It's fine for mcfaul to hope that Russia signs on it's fine for Russia to sign on. This is not an unworthy endeavor But as Daniel says these world leaders don't necessarily have control over the people who are actually waiting violence in the world and second they can sign the agreement. It doesn't mean that they'll abide by it. Let's put the focus more on some of the world's top individuals and assess how they've responded to the crisis New Zealand's prime minister just into our dern made this announcement on Wednesday. Today I can convince myself. Government ministers and public Suva's chief executives. We'll take a twenty percent pay-cut for the Knicks. Six months is we acknowledged New Zealanders. Who are reliant. On wage subsidies taking pay cuts and losing their jobs as a result of nine teens. Global pandemic are dern has also been praised for her response to the corona virus outbreak. That's included a month. Long shutdown starting March twenty fifth to April fourth On April Fourth New Zealand saw a consecutive drop in cases Nina. Why has she gotten so much praise? Well there's a separate conversation about female leadership. Supposedly the most competent countries are being led by women Germany Finland New Zealand. We just heard her as you mentioned there in that clip that she took a twenty percent. Pay-cut What's interesting is that She also shamed the opposition leader into taking one to. What's interesting about just send a Dan is that she's a rising star internationally but had domestic emerge until this crisis. She wasn't universally light. She emerged from a hung parliament situation but she is getting lueders for the way in which he's been very much in touch with the nation's she's been very practical down to Earth. I don't know if you've seen her fireside chance. Which when she announces this week lockdown. I mean. She's been doing them on facebook and she's the in her sweatpants taking questions from the public. I mean you really can't imagine a figure like Boris Johnson. President trump. Doing something like that. She's also championed the poor and she got the New Zealand banks to give people a six month mortgage holiday the other innovative thing about New Zealand. Which is worth mentioning is the word bubble has come into the lexicon. They've developed a system. Where essentially you move within your family bubble is your primarily primary bubble and then you have your work bubble and you don't step outside those bubbles which really allows for much more accurate contact tracing so they've had something like eleven deaths with five million people very low which by contrast Ustralia is much more of a microcosm of the US a lot of skepticism and delay in the beginning New Zealand really got together. Emily is New Zealand than new Norway. If you know what I mean it strikes me as doing more things right than wrong. I mean I I do know what you mean. I think that I think that in their handling of this crisis sure they can be the new but I. I think that what's important to note for American listeners because we'll see clips of just into order online of her like talking about how. Maybe the Easter Bunny can't come to kids houses this year. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't care about them being very warm and relatable and I think it's really easy to Jesse those viral moments over here not put them in context. It's the same with Lavar Ireland sort of. He's a doctor and it's going to work. The reason these leaders are getting praise is not for these one offs right. It's exactly as Nina said because they were very aggressive in realizing that this is serious intesting in tracing and so these sort of these sort of human moment help their image but but you know all of the eastern the and being a doctor in the world wouldn't I don't think have done much good if they had not really risen to the occasion that this pandemic presented. I'm talking with Emily Tamken. Us editor for the New Statesman Nina Maria pots director of global news coverage for Feature Story News. And Daniel Kurtz Falen executive editor of foreign affairs. Now someone else being rewarded for how he handled this moment is south. Korea's President Moon jae-in has governing party won parliamentary elections by a landslide on Wednesday. It was the first time in sixteen years that left leaning parties have won a majority in parliament. Now Daniel can this landslide victory for Moon. Jae-in be attributed to the way. His administration has handled corona virus to to a certain extent. That's true South Korea's in many ways emerging as the real model of what a good responsible quite looks like it learned as I think. Emily pointed out earlier first cases around the time the US did and move much more quickly to do things like ramp-up testing so it's sort of testing Lots and lots of people very very quickly. It used technology in very adept ways to do contact tracing to see who had interacted with with people who might have been infected so it has become the model of how other countries should respond and President. Moon has gotten a fair degree of credit for that. And it's worth pointing out that South Korea unlike some of the other cases that are held up in East Asia is a democracy so it's seen as in some ways a more useful model for countries like the United States or a place in Europe that are that are affected and that will redound to moons benefit just as it's going down to other leaders benefits when they move to responded crisis in in smart deducting quick ways. This is really kind of detested who these leaders are. As my my colleague the Council on Foreign Relations Tomboy says plagues. Tell us who we are. You see all of these leaders really. Ucf Herod their core characteristics. Really coming through more clearly than ever right now. Emily voter turnout for this. Election was also the highest. It's been for a parliamentary election in almost thirty years. Any idea why I mean I am not as South Korean politics experts to hesitate to speculate but one could see it as a sort of mandate on how well the government has done. Daniel feel free to weigh in here on the voter turnout. Just say one of the things that is important about the election. That just took place in. South Korea is that it gives us an example of how an election can and unfold smoothly and be managed effectively during a time of pandemic so as we look ahead to additional primary United States and potentially a November presidential election taking place with some walk down still in place or some degree of social distancing. Stolen place the steps that. South Korea Tokyo ensure that you can just having election but have it go smoothly and turn out. Rise really should be model that we should be paying close attention to. Let's get some good news from the UK. I've today left hospital after a week. In which the NHS has saved my life no question. It's hard to find words to express my debt. A grateful and healthier British Prime Minister. Boris Johnson was discharged from the hospital on Sunday after contracting covert Nineteen Johnson spent three nights in intensive care Nina while people are of course relieved that Johnson has recovered. Some have pointed out that though he's doing better the country he's leading is not a very good point. There's been some degree very tation among Boris. Critics that his health became the story and not the exploding death rate. That said he's still in recovery. Did seem genuinely to be touch and go when he was admitted. Very directly into hospital and then as you say into intensive CAM members of his team also got sick Matt Hancock the Minister of Health and also the country's chief medical officer He has said in the last twenty four hours at the UK is nearing the peak but is not passed it yet. Boris's condition was definitely both dramatic and alarming. Boris haters were very worried. Even about the prospect of losing the prime minister so it did unify the country momentarily but the UK government's response has been very controversial as you we know I mean. There's been a huge debate in the UK about why the government was cautiously optimistic at the beginning of this discussion overheard immunity delay in locking down then the surge infections in cases and deaths. It's all prompted a much more aggressive line of attack from the opposition. It's just extended the lockdown to another three three weeks so that still very tough guidelines in place in the has also been this scandal this mess over the twenty million dollars that they spend on Chinese testing kits which was supposedly going to be home testing kids and they of course arrived and didn't work after several weeks away. Britain's parliament is planning to restart proceedings next week. Virtually the proposed virtual parliament however would limit the amount of parliamentary work. That could take place which has raised concerns among some members of parliament about their ability to hold Boris Johnson's government accountable for its response to Cova Nineteen Daniel. Why are some members of parliament? Worried that they won't be able to hold Boris Johnson accountable over a virtual parliament in part a reflection of the unique dynamics within within the UK problem in the way that they're able to challenge their their prime minister but it's also reinforced by the way that Boris Johnson's personal health as he is coming out of the hospital and this has become the center of the story has really we. Some ways obscured the the larger policy questions for the United Kingdom. What limits on. Parliamentary work have been outlined in the proposal. You know I'm not sure about the the the details of of their return. Let's move on to Canada. Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau responded to calls to reopen the economy at a press conference on Wednesday with Spring. Coming people are looking outside wanting to get out wanting this to be over. I understand that it will be weeks more before we can seriously consider loosening. The restrictions Trudeau also said on Thursday that the US Canada border would not be reopening to non essential travel anytime soon despite initial plans to reopen the border on April nineteenth. Emily what's been Trudeau's response to the outbreak. Thus far Trudeau has gotten a lot of praise for his handling of the outbreak. I mean both domestically just because it's not as bad as it clearly here and also and that his wife got sick and then he was home with the kid also getting press conference so it was sort of To to true strength as a politician as much as pandemic Ken I will also say that whatever you think of Trudeau honestly telling the people that it is going to be weeks before. They can safely reopen the economy. Is you know not to be subjective here. But that's the responsible thing to do and yes earlier. Estimations were made about when people could travel when people could go back to work safely. They have been pushed back because reality has pushed him back. And I think that that's part of what people are looking for. In their world leaders right now is an honest assessment of the situation and I should add that. It's not just that it's nice outside. That's not the only reason that people in Canada or elsewhere want to go back to work. Obviously people are really suffering because of this. But that said He. I think I was reading through a statement and kind of not not to be partisan about this but was struck by the comparison between the way that he spoke about reopening the economy the way the president trump is spoken about reopening the economy. Here we'll speaking of president trump on Wednesday president trump said the. Us and Canada are doing well and that that border would be one of the first to reopen. Why is there such a disconnect about a time? Line Dan so there is this is characterized in some ways of the US response throughout this crisis both the eagerness of president trump to get things back to normal and get the economy moving again and also the faltering coordination with allies both within North America and also With European allies and other so trump has shown great eagerness to sometimes against the wishes of his public health officials move back towards trade and commerce in some degree of normalcy much more quickly than other leaders have and you've seen Trudeau be much more. Cautious even has trump has been much more eager to get the economy going again now earlier this week. The Washington Post report that from Brazil to Afghanistan to Salvador. It's not just local and central governments taking on the corona virus armed groups like the Taliban and ms thirteen are fighting back by distributing aid packages and enforcing lockdowns Nina. This isn't new armed. Groups often look for ways to exploit crises. But how important are these non-state actors well? It's a very good question. I think with any major crisis. He say comes. Opportunity the opportunity to politicize to galvanize your base. The opportunity to terrorize simply run the show especially in failing or failed states. I mean the parallel is how the Mafia revolt in southern Italy. And that's not just a historical point. Italian officials warning right now that the matthier is stepping into a corona virus hot zones offering their own loans cash handouts and trying to topple the grip of local authorities. I think the point that the post was making is that some of these terrorist groups and drug cartels a stepping in to run public policy. In some instances like the Taliban Afghanistan and in places like Brazil gangs of apparently been imposing curfews. I mean what's very striking about Brazil? And this throws back to the point that you were making earlier. Which is that. It's one of the so-called Ostrich Alliance countries that are whose leadership bearing bear burying their heads in the sand Brazil. Nicaragua Bellarusse Turkmenistan. Leaders ARE CORONA virus denies. So yeah. It's a significant development. Definitely one that Terrorist experts now observing just how these groups are stepping into the space left by corona virus. Dan Do we know if their efforts are different? More more targeted? I wonder how much impact they can have in places that are pretty lawless. It's a reminder that you know in the in the West states we often talk about these groups in terms of threats but a big part of their success on the ground has always been the way that they provide order. They step in where there's a security vacuum pack of public services. So you know this is. The part of the success of the Taliban has even of Isis when it had its its caliphate in Syria and Iraq and organized crime of course operates similarly so whenever there's no state it's an opportunity for militants and criminals to take on those roles and they have this kind of added opportunity here is needed pointed out to play this kind of robinhood role and that again is not anything new. It's been part of how both organized crime and militant groups have operated for a long time. But this really gives them kind of high profile opportunity to show that in a time when even states in the developing world even than the. Us in Europe are really struggling to take control the situation. If you imagine the pandemic really taking hold in some of these parts of developing world where states are already week. You can just imagine how difficult that situation will be. And how much of an opportunity that presents to all kinds of armed actors whether criminal groups are terrorists but what happened in El Salvador diverged from this a bit both the government and the powerful gang. Ms Thirteen instituted a curfew and a lockdown. Emily are there other examples of armed groups and governments? Having the same message. Yeah I mean you saw that. You've already mentioned Brazil. There was that message is going around sort of you know if the government won't step it we will which again provides ordering a place where where government has decided that. There doesn't need to be any because of the pandemic I also think I thought it was really interesting. This is slightly different from what we've been talking about that that the Islamic state was pretty early on to issue a travel advisory to the EU. What that suggested to me was that these organizations were in some cases taking this more seriously than governments. Were which is Daniel. In my opinion correctly said Gibbs it does give people a sense of not comfort exactly but of safety in order that the people who were elected to provide that had failed to do. Now here's another story that we're following this week. China moved one of its ships into Vietnam waters in the. Us State Department didn't like that in a memo. It accused China of quote exploiting the distraction vulnerability of other states to expand its unlawful claims in the South China Sea. Yes that distraction is the corona virus pandemic and if the story sounds familiar. That's because something similar happened last year. Vietnam spent months trailing that same Chinese vessel as it moved about close to shore Daniel. What's China up too so this is yet another reminder. That geopolitics doesn't stop anytime dubbing. It really accelerate so this has been a game playing out in the South China Sea for a decade or more with China Laying claim to a huge portion to see and then the other southeast. Asian states are rounded Vying for waters that. They think they should have control over. The other. Economically or access for military vessels and China has been for some time throwing more and more of its own weight into claiming those waters so in this case it has sent a government survey ship with a number of coast guard vessels around it into waters that are claimed by Vietnam Malaysia. And there is a stand off between the Chinese vessels and the Malaysian vessels. And this is something that China is going to continue doing in a time of pandemic or otherwise and you know again as a reminder that for all the all the talk of global leaders coming together and we'll ceasefires This is if anything an opportunity to seize momentum and sees advantage. Eric emails us in points out. China has been doing this for decades. Is that true Daniel. That's right and the activities have really ramped up over the last decade or two as China's become more powerful but it is claim these waters for several decades and people talk about the nine Dash Line which indicates the Chinese claims in the South China Sea. So it is aspire to have this control for a long time now has the power and the naval resources to really to really flex that power a new way Nina. Can you explain the importance of the South China Sea? Why China cares about it so much well at some a complex question and China has had those territorial aspirations for for many many years. I mean I think to John's point about how this is likely to continue. I mean what's very striking on a slightly different point of GDP figures out today showing that the Chinese economy has retreated by six point eight percent in the first three months of the year because of the corona virus. I suspect we weren't see less spending on military and of course how much China spends on its military and its military. Inspirations is contentious point. I think what's particularly interesting about the Chinese Narrative right now is how it's hijacked the propaganda narrative with its own domestic audience. I mean we saw the very beginning of the crisis a great deal of public anger and outrage at the government for its handling of the crisis in Wuhan demands for transparency sympathy for the doctors and the whistle blowers and that has really been been turned on. Its head and we're now seeing a public outraged by the foreign Foreign arrivals foreign new cases of course the borders have now closed to foreigners. But there's a great deal of mockery for the kind of West ineptitude and apathy. So I don't think that. That kind of nationalist support for expansion in the South China Sea is going to retreat anytime soon. Now we've been taking an outward look from the US learning about what's going on in other countries. Let's take a moment to talk about how other countries learn about us. One of those ways is through Voice of America or VOA government funded agency that broadcast news in forty seven languages across the globe in a memo sent out last Friday. The trump administration accused voa of quote amplifying Beijing's propaganda. The president continued the criticisms at Wednesday's press conference when he said that the quote things they say is disgusting towards our country needed Marie. What's behind those AC accusations? Well I mean the explosion. Wednesday was startling and Without wanting to kind of editorial is it did sound almost deranged and I think there is a question of whether or not president trump has gone too far. I think the problem for VOA is that it's not perhaps as widely or deeply appreciated within the US it's a bit like the BBC World Service and the public loves and knows NPR AND PBS but VOA's role in the world is perhaps underappreciated. Its charter though. Does govern independent coverage and that is laws so the question of whether or not president trump can Tampa with the OA and turn it into a suspect. He wants to do his own. Propaganda Channel. Overseas is a big question. I mean he may be able to do that if he gets in for a second time. He wants to put in place the head of the agency overseeing the O. A conservative filmmaker Michael Pack. Who's linked to Steve Bannon? And and really I think. The only person standing in the way of president trump tampering with. Voa's independence's is Amanda Bennett. Who is a career journalist and who is single handedly trying to protect the independence of view whose history is deeply entwined with the history of America's influence overseas. And of course the irony of all of this is that video itself has come under attack and suppression by hostile governments. Russia has pretty much blocked. Voa The Chinese are longtime who thought of as a vehicle of the government. So it is I think for people not familiar perhaps with VOA's story and its role in the world an extraordinary attempt by president trump to a to shape the way and his image. Emily can you talk about how you see this fitting in with trump's attitude towards the media in general like this was one of a number of attacks on the press this week. Right Right This was an I mean if it's a two things one if it's his on the media which are ceaseless but to it sort of points out of this Lehto same Wa attitude. That trump has right because even though the voice of America other countries some other countries don't like it in part because it it reports this very America it. It's does report out. In American view of the world and other countries have different language services. It does take on an American edge reporting those things. But that's that's not good enough right. It has to be trump's America so it's both yet again while this agency is trying to bring news and information to people as so many other media outlets are attack on the press but it also demonstrates that in his mind not to psychoanalyze the president but that his mind there is inflation or a belief that there should be a completion between representing the United States. And what's good for United States and representing trump and what's good for trump. We like to take a moment at the end of the news roundup to check with our journalists on what they're working on next Nina. I know that you are working on some coverage from Russia. This week is that right. That's right I mean we have Thirty four bureaus. Globally Russia is experiencing well festival under the Putin administration a huge turnaround u-turn and it's Reaction and response to the spread of the virus. It's now got the highest rising rate of infections in the world and I mean I was just going to to mention that as a news organization As a television news organization you know we're grappling with You know my grazing on US gathering a completely different Sort of beast and you know we deal with teams and Delhi and Mumbai. A trying to make sure that we're following safety precautions when we film. I mean filming. The world's biggest slum in Mumbai this week has been a challenge and in Russia where all journalists onto loud one hundred meters outside their door unless they have a dog. You can imagine that some of that reporting is Is Proving to be challenging? But but it's also been I think important to to bring kind of global context. It's I think is a network euros All of our journalists already trying to to cover the ground that they need to cover. It sounds good. Dan Thirty seconds. Tell us what's up with foreign affairs. Yeah if I can show for the magazine and we just put out an issue on climate change and in some ways this is an issue that is a little bit like global pandemics and not it is something that experts warn about for a long time and it takes a real focus from the author to do something about it. I guess if we can end on an optimistic note I would say there's always hope that the pandemic will remind us of why governments institutions and people need to come together at a counter these kinds of global problems whether climate change or global health threats before they before they hit before they become crises and just with a few seconds to go emily. What's going on with you? This new role must have exactly has is just brought in to this new role. It's part of the New Statesman at international expansion. So I'm sort of the US editor slash Washington correspondent. We have a new international homepage. There's a new world review newsletter so four readers of Global News. Who have or American news who perhaps not checked out the new states before Not to show for my own publication. But I would highly encourage you to do that now. My guest this week have been emily. Tamken US editor for the New Statesman. Daniel Kurtz failing executive editor for foreign affairs and Nina Maria pots director of global news coverage for Feature Story News. Thank you all so much and we do hope to see you again soon before we go our last act of kindness for the week today story comes from DNA in Charlotte North Carolina. I'm a pet sitter in Charlotte and sense the corona virus outbreak. I've lost about ninety to ninety five percent of my business but some of my very loyal and very kind clients have continued to pay me anyway regardless of the fact that I'm not actually taking care of their pets at this time It has helped me tremendously and I will never forget their kindness. is meant so much to me and my family during this really stressful time. Thank you so much for sharing that story Deanna. Now if you have an act of kindness to share we would love to hear from you to our number once again. Eight five five two three six one two one two. It can be anything from a street parade with six feet of distancing between the marchers to a surprise birthday party over zoom. We read and listen to every one of them. That number again is eight five five two three six one two one two. Our senior producers are Danielle night and page Osborne. The podcast is edited by Matthew Simonsen. A special shout out to our sound designer and engineer Jake Cherry. Who's been running? Today's entire show away from me from a safe social distance. This program comes to you from WMU part of American University in Washington distributed by NPR and Sasha. Antibodies have a great weekend. We hope you'll stay safe and thank you so much for listening. This is one eight.

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Wednesday 19 June

Monocle 24: The Briefing

58:35 min | 2 years ago

Wednesday 19 June

"You're listening to the briefing, first broadcast on the nineteenth of June two thousand nine thousand nine on monocle twenty four. Hello and welcome to the briefing coming to you live from studio one here at Madari house in London. I'm Andrew Miller coming up on today's program. I stand before you to officially launch my campaign for a second term as president of the United States, Donald Trump announces he is standing in next year's presidential election, should we expect the most divisive contest in US political history. Also head the candidates to replace Theresa May as the UK's prime minister, torque tough on the plans to leave the European Union. We must come out on the thirty first of October, because otherwise, I'm afraid we face a catastrophic loss of confidence in politics. We already kicked the can down the road twice, and I think the British people are getting thoroughly fed up. Plus, we'll have the latest on the sale of southern B's review, the talian newspapers, and find out why the western Balkans is so fond of Turkish soap operas. That's coming up right here on the briefing on monocle twenty four. And welcome to today's briefing with me and Ramallah. It's five hundred and three days until people in the United States vote in the next presidential election to nobody's surprise last night. President Donald Trump officially declared his intention to campaign to keep his job, announcing his bid for reelection in Florida. A key battleground state and handy for at least one of his golf courses is seventy eight minute. Speech was the by now familiar combination of boasts of Bula accomplishments assertions of abuse nonsense and invocations of imaginary enemies, all of which was Gidley who today that by the kind of people who turn up at these things he is some of what the president had to say. I stand before you to officially launch my campaign for a second term as president of the United States. Very historic because exactly for years ago this week, I announced my campaign for president of the United States. And it turned out to be more than just a political campaign. It turns out to be a great political movement because of you a great move. On joined with more on this by the author and broadcaster. Michael Goldfarb Michael measured against Trump's standards of all rhetorical. We'll say or anything unusual about Las nuts speech. No, this is a DJ doing his greatest hits. And fact, most of the rallies, that we've seen over the last couple of years since he actually one I've been a replay of the campaign, greatest hits except that now he can add say, well, I did this, and I did that and because I think people who support in Christ in his his relationship to the truth, they just buy it. They just love to hear it. I mean is there no indication at all? Even among that support base that people are getting tired of his stick. Or are they as you suggest as enthusiastic as people who are still buying tickets to see? I don't know the eagles or the Rolling Stones. Hey, actually, I haven't bought a ticket to see the Rolling Stones. Through my backout sitting on a backlist bench in a big stadium in Philadelphia. I said that's it for me in the stones. Listen. I it's a hard question to answer accurately, because if you look at national polls, what for other candidates seeking reelection would be a floor is his ceiling. He's always running between forty and forty two percent approval. So pretty clearly his supporters are as I christened them in two thousand sixteen unswayable. He can do anything. He as he wants it. I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose a vote because the people committed to voting for him are still the people committed to voting for him. What's interesting and I think it will if should think about this as there's for every action, there's an equal an opposite reaction except in the case of Trump and American politics. The reaction to him on the democratic side has actually stimulated things. It's very easy to forget. With Donald Trump because he dominates the news cycle so much, you know, the reality of what happened during the mid term of both last year. And that is that a substantial number of people who might have sat on their hands came out to vote, and they voted democrat. The Democrats did extremely well. And I think that so long as Trump continues to be who he is. And there's no sign that he will ever change then he will likely motivate democ- democratic voters who you know in two thousand and sixteen warrant so energize to come out and vote for whoever the Democrats nominate what do we glean if not from last night's speech necessarily than anything else, he said, would done recently about how he intends to fight this next election campaign? Will it be enough for him to just keep cranking out the old greatest hits and hoped that by a second fluky falls? Over the line in a few case state so easy going to have to come up with something new. I think that what you'll see is very interesting. Article in today's political online politics, political news from Washington, but Jack shaver who's their media cars funded. And he makes one of the most coaching points about Trump a bread which is for him. It's I mean he has no political ideology, his ideology is pay attention to me. So he is likely to be injecting himself into everything. The Democrats do if two new cycles go by without him being the most important thing being discussed. We'll put out a tweet about, I'm gonna bomb, Iran or, you know, I'm slapping tariffs on another ten countries. His political ideology is himself. And so, I think what he'll continue to do as a strategy is just invent things to keep bringing attention back to himself. So that, you know, as the Democrats intimate, look next week, there's going to be two debates with this twenty three large is twenty three people running for the democratic nomination, which in and of itself is insane and probably held struck, you know, they're going to be two debates with the, you know, half in one day, half in the other he will be nonstop tweeting to how all of this to call attention away from the Democrats are discussing towards himself. And I think that, that is his one and only ideology, it's also is only strategy. Michael goldfarb. Thank you, as always. Joining us you're listening to the briefing were now joined by monocle twenty fours. Ben Ryland with the day's news headlines. Thank you, Andrew, the UN's refugee agency has revealed that the number of people fleeing wall Perth. Persecution and conflict exceeded seventy million last year. It's the highest number in the agency's history. And the figure is also double the level. That was recorded twenty years ago. Canada's government has approved the expansion of the trans mountain project. It's thought that it could pose problems all the countries liberal prime minister, Justin, Trudeau in this year's general election, which will be Ford in part of the climate issues environmentalists fiercely oppose the project and the monocle. Minute reports on Berlin long history of low cost living following the German capital's decision to freeze rents on more than a million properties from next year cities across the country, watching the move closely for more on that story had over two molecule dot com and sign up to the monocle minute. Those are the day's headlines. Andrew. Thank you, Ben. Let's get the days latest business headlines now on joined by Bloomberg's Sandra Kilhof, sir. Andhra first of all, markets in the US and elsewhere, I guess, on hold today ahead of the meeting tonight of the Federal Reserve. What is everybody waiting for? Well, it communists are saying that the fed will probably hold interest rates steady when it comes to today's meeting, but what is really interesting is what they will say about fed rates going forward. Now futures are suggesting that the fed could cut rates ahead of September. Maybe even in the July meeting amid signs that we are seeing the US economy moderating a bit. Now, blueberry, can all make says that the federal and Powell will be Wookey very fine line. Today market sentiment is shifting toward rate cut, as soon as July, the fed might not be quite as ready to ease, but that will be very crucial to hear what he has to say this evening about that. We do know that they are expected to issue, a very dovish policy statement. We know that the all moving towards it. But the question is, will they look to hike rates as soon as markets are pricing in moving along to the UK reports suggesting. A declining in the employees in the inflation rate, rather here in the UK, which is occasionally thought of, as good news. But it's not good news, why this is happening now. Because it kind of comes amid a few signs of the economy, not doing too, well, basically CPI is back at the Bank of England target, it's back to percent. And that is ready to be good news for the Bank of England. They've go right decision tomorrow. So they'll be pleased to see that. But what is less good is that if you look at why it is? It's because of things like f s and new call prices, dropping, and that tells you a bit about the strength of the British consumer co inflation even slipped to one point seven percent. So it does kind of put a bit of concern when it comes to the strength of the British consumer, which we know is the driver of the economy at the same time winter, the labor market is very tight. Economic growth has been slowing quite aggressively because of Brexit uncertainty. So while low inflation does give the Bank of England a bit of breathing room. It doesn't necessarily mean it's good news. Is the any as far as anybody is able to tell Brexit factor to this? Good question. The thing is, is that as long as sterling is fooling, of course, inflation will rise because it just it just drives, the pri- drives prices of the and so to that, extent, there is an impact because studying is, is weaker. It's fallen from a one twenty-seven handle to about one twenty five one twenty six in the last couple of days, which means it's going to continue to remain in that week positioning against the Dollah until we get some set on Brexit an amid the Tory leadership race that's going to continue to weigh on studying because, for now we're not going to get any clarity until we know who the new leader is and whether he can could push through the Brexit deal all, whether it would indeed been. No deal breaks that more pressure on starting and that would again spike inflation. So, you know, yes, of course, inflation very much tied into Brexit foreign leeann just quickly one at least British institution, not struggling for cash right now is orchard university, as and this is. Thanks to the head of Blackstone group, it, this is Stephen Schwarzman. He's just donated one hundred and fifty million pounds to the university of Oxford, it's, it's large donation in, it's eight hundred year history and all of the money is going to, to new institute that will study the ethics of artificial intelligence something, that's watchmen says, is the major issue of I, h Sandra Kilhof Bloomberg. Thank you for joining us. You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four. Joining me now on the briefing for a look at the day's other big stories are, Carol Walker political analyst, and former BBC Westminster correspondent, and Tim Marshall forms gone us, diplomatic editor and author most recently of shadow play the inside story of Europe's lost war, and we will start here in the UK and the ongoing process of deciding the next leader of the conservative party, and therefore the next prime minister, another round of winnowing is due later today. The five remaining candidates took part in a live television debate on the BBC last night, answering questions from members of the general public. It is difficult to make a case that what unfolded was much of an advertisement for the five candidates, the BBC, or the general public Carol was anybody on the panel notably impressive. I think the short answer to that is no. Apparently, as they came in and took their seats on five high stools. They were all joking that they were like some boy band lineup. But I think the only screaming in the audience was from people with exhaust peration because there was a lot of posturing positioning, a lot of slogans. But I don't think we got any really clear detail from any of the five candidates on what their future vision for the country was, and crucially, how they were going to deliver bricks which is the overriding issue in this contest. Four of the five of all said that they think is absolutely crucial that the UK lease the EU by October the thirty first, which is the latest deadline, one of them, who's the new comer on the block Rory Stewart said he wants to revive Theresa May's deal, and if necessary he'd have a delay in order to try to get that through. But each of the candidates was so busy trying to make their own points and proclaim their own great, qualities that we didn't really get down to any of the nitty gritty to the debate itself in terms of format. It was a shambles wasn't it the highlight of the program was one of the candidates, ROY Stewart took his tough. That was it. That was one of the things that most people talked about afterwards. If you wanted a lesson in how not to do a political debate that was it wrong format, no audience. Dull questions and indulgences. It was one of the worst I've ever seen. I, I'm sorry, that your listeners have to intrude upon our private grief as we continue in this country, just to go on and on about this subject and move. No further forward, which is, as Carol said last night, we go no further forward in our priority of what's going on Carol. There has been the by now. Obligatory semi-scandal brewing over who was actually put on there to represent the general public Abdullah from Bristol turns out to have a history of entirely unsavory, social media, postings, which nobody spotted, and there's now some suggestions, another one of the members of the general public was, in fact, I labor party staffer. I mean how does. This possibly happen, given the BBC presumably has researchers that they don't spot. What anybody with a Twitter account is able to figure out in the matter of minutes afterwards. I think that they were so preoccupied with trying to make sure that they got the format. Right. And of course, because we had one of the rounds of voting only a couple of hours before the show went on air. There was a huge preoccupation with how many candidates they were going to be how they were going to do the lineup. How the format was gonna work out. They wanted to engage the general public. So we did have questioners from around the UK who popped up in various regional studios to ask their questions. But there was then no wider audience to follow up on those points. And make sure that the various candidates really answer. Okay. Lack producers are counted. The credits twelve produces I'm not going to make excuses. I think there was, obviously a, a lack of background checking that went on. But all I would say was in contrast to. Tim. I do think that each of the questioners had very valid very pointed questions to ask. I think the problem was that the questions were better than the answers. Yeah. Okay. I will grant you that the questions were better. On your question. I'm sorry. I mean, I'm not I don't want to attack the Bieb, great respect her of the BBC and your glowing role in it over the years. But this happens time, and again, from the BBC time under gain you get someone who comes on as an expert who get someone who comes on as a nurse, who comes on as a doctor, whatever. And then afterwards, you find out actually very brench member of a local political party who've actually been pushed onto that to be a member of the public. But in fact, what they're doing is coming from their political stance without telling anybody. And you thought for a program like this and national broadcast which they were hoping for a large audience. You'd have thought that twelve produces could at least have checked, the if these people are asking the questions. Who are they all I would say is that I think that there is a valid points. Clearly, the BBC should have done further checks to make sure that the people asking questions were genuinely there as individuals. With questions that they wanted to ask the future prime minister, but I don't think that those issues, which have been raised really are undermined the questions that they raised which are the sort of basic questions. What are you gonna do about Brexit? Do you think that words have an impact, which was the question that I've done a raised which was, obviously put Boris Johnson somewhat? I on the spot over some of his previous utterances. So I think that the questions that they raised were perfectly valid, although I accept that obviously, the BBC should have done a few more background checks. And you'd have thought by now that they would have learned that agreed or a couple of the questions. For example, there was one pertinent one about climate change. But the pertinent answer to it was no sorry, I can't give you a guarantee that will be carbon neutral by twenty thirty because it is actually in unfeasible, if we're going to sustain our economy. But none of the five were prepared to say, oh, absolutely. I can do that. In fact, its own reason it's on feasible very final quick for. On a related subject Carol. There are reports that today, the labor party will formally come out as pro second, referendum and pro remain. How likely is that to shift anything? I think we have to wait and see exactly what Jeremy Corbyn comes to voice has come under huge pressure from senior figures within his party. The deputy leader Tom Watson, many in the shadow cabinet as well as many of the members to shift, the up main opposition parties position to backing a second referendum on whatever deal, emerges and the party has been inching towards that. But we know that the reason it hasn't done. So, so far, is that Jeremy Corbyn himself and many of his key allies on that shuttle cabinet thing that if they did that it would be utterly disastrous in many of those more traditional working cloth seats in the north of England many of which? Voted very strongly to leave the EU. So a lot of speculation is going to shift. Let's just wait and see how far he actually does an all I would say, very briefly, as that all of those future contenders to be prime minister, I think the moment of feeling thankful that at the moment, they're gonna face Jeremy Corbyn, because the labor party has got its own huge problems over the whole Brexit process. Well, let's move on and look at the latest intentions between the US, and Iran specifically, how they relate to Europe, which is geographically and politically between the two. It is mostly the nations of Europe, which are trying to prop up the Iranian nuclear deal of two thousand fifteen which the US has already abandoned, and which Iran is threatening at least a partial exit from Tim, is there, in fact, a middle path that Europe can walk here or are they eventually going to have to pick Assad, or they're going to have to decide because the US pulled out last year. The sanctions American sanctions of kicked in. The Iranian economy is going down hill rapidly. The Europeans are still in it, and consequently are supposed to be abiding by their part of the nuclear deal, which is to do lots of good trade deals because if they do that they may fall Phalle of American sanctions, then not doing it. And the EU Philip bravado, was it always is said last year. We've got this new scheme, we'll go through a third party. We won't sell you something direct or buy something direct, but we'll do it through a third party. And consequently, we won't be selling. We won't fall foul of the sanctions. That was the idea. But they didn't do it. None of them have done it. So the rainy economies in four, so what are the Iranians supposed to do? What are they getting out of this deal? Nothing. So they say they're going to restart production of fishermen fishy on material, July, the eighth, I believe, is at that point, they will fall foul of the nuclear deal because they will be exceeding the amount, there amount allowed to produce once they fall and foul of that deal that point, the European. Say we'll we're pulling out as well Carol tons. The does the Europe. You, especially that is, which is not a small or insignificant organization. Does it actually in fact, have any leverage at all that, it, can it can bring to bear either on the United States or Iran? We'll look, I think the EU is very concerned that since the United States pulled out of that Dale since those sanctions were slapped on the Iranians that Iran is essentially being isolated further and further. And I think they are very worried about the dangers of a of a cornered Iran, which has got nowhere else to go on which plays into the hands of the hardliners within Iran. But I think it is very difficult for them as Tim has mentioned once you've got those American sanctions. The scope for the Europeans to continue any sorts of significant amounts of trade with Iran, a pretty limited anyway, and we now know that Iran has said that by the twenty seventh of June. It's going. To suppose the limit on the amount of enriched uranium. It's allowed to produce under that twenty fifteen deal if it does that the Europeans, essentially will have no choice because if Iran defaults on each side of the deal, the Europeans are think will be forced to have to accept well, if Iran's not gonna keep up its side of the bargain. Then we can't fulfill ours either. But I think it does make a difference to Iran, diplomatically, and on the wider world stage. We know that, for example, Angela Merkel, A and others. All keen to try to keep open this dialogue with Iran and at a time when tensions are increasing over the attacks in the Gulf of Oman. It's clearly a very precarious in a very dangerous situation, or just to expand on that thought into, if Europe does need to pick a side at some point, who's bluffed. Does it make more sense to call Washington's oughta runs runs? But it's not going to it's proba. Not going to come to a war, probably, but what's, what's going on? Is that all the stuff we've seen recently, the tankers being blown up the American alleged Americans allegedly reinforcing? Is actually signaling the signaling by both sides that they don't want to war. Now you might think that's counterproductive. Why would you blow up something? They say it wasn't them. Maybe it wasn't the Americans putting warships in. But actually when you look at what they've blown up they've blown up things that on board was cargo from the UAE and Saudi Arabia, not Americans and a Japanese tanker when Arbi was there to say, I don't care about your message from Trump signals signals signal. Coincidence, probably not come to the negotiating table. The Americans look the ABRAHAM LINCOLN was already on its way there, but they announced it with a massive fanfare, it was always going to go there for months. We've known the Lincoln would be there. But they announced it as if. Right, we're sending an aircraft carrier, the Iranians know this, and they know they're stigma Ling, watch it guys, these one and a half thousand troops, that have been reinforced. No seven hundred and fifty of them are already there. And the simply not mean to go home. So it's not one and a half thousand Iranians, read this and realized this is not. Preparation preparations for war. It's preparations for trying to get to the negotiating the problem is that there are hardliners on both sides that are pushing him towards war. When you're in that situation, things can go back very briefly this, too. Serious problems here one, I don't think that either side want to go to war, but it is an incident, they don't have a direct line of communication. There's no phone on the desk. Pickup, and somebody answers it. Consequently when you're talking about a matter of minutes of a military incident, it can go out of hand. Secondly, the Iranians have got a use it or lose it military equipment, if they fear this is about to escalate, and we know if the American strike first everything we've got is gone. They are tempted to use it. And that's why it's so dangerous. Okay. We'll finally to one of the greatest advances ever made by science vaccinations, which have enabled uncountable human beings to live vastly longer, and healthier and happier. Lives by sparing is the owners which wants routinely scythed down people by the million, regrettably, an inoculation. Against ignorance and credulity is yet to be developed with the result. That according to a new survey by the Wellcome Trust trust in vaccines is receding. Carol how earth did we get this is this is preposterous? It is quite extraordinary. When you look at the figures about certain countries where trust in vaccines, has fallen, and these are not impoverished are poorly Agron pursuit. They are quite the opposite. These are countries where some of the rumors based on totally discredited claims have circulated on the internet. I think combined somewhat with a situation, whereby people have stopped worrying about the disease is involved because they think they will ready been eliminated and then you see vaccination levels fooling it's interesting to see that some European countries such as Italy. Now have. Not just compulsory vaccination, but new rules, whereby. If your child has not been vaccinated if it's under six you not actually allowed to bring them in into school, and they only acted because the vaccination levels at Phoolan solo down to around eighty percent that there were increasing incidences of measles and it comes down to mistrust down to stories about how the big pharmaceutical companies are behind the vaccination program and still floating around this. These utterly discredited claims about the links between certain vaccines and things like autism. The figures are astonishing. It is almost inversely proportional. There is higher trust in vaccines in poorer and less educated countries is because those are the countries who can see well within living memory, what the difference, vaccines, make. And it's just that whole thing of comfortable, affluent people being complacent incredulous. There's a lot to do with that Pakistan, for example, which before I looked at the figures thought might be lower than say the UK eighty seven percent of people have trust despite the Taliban in many areas saying, oh, this is the law. Don't get vaccinated Egypt ninety seven percent. Trust you k- only seventy five percent trust in France. It's even lower than that. So why it is the two things you say, I think one people have seen her lives change to we are complacent and the social media campaigns are mostly in English. True enough. The they have been they're very slick social media campaign saying, this is going to kill your kids. The one aberration is Japan. Eighty eight percent of people do not trust vaccines, eighty eight percent of what the hell's that goes back to nineteen Ninety-three when the MR jab was banned in Japan, but they had had an unfortunate experience, but they put something wrong in it, which was then taken out and there were eight fraternities, but some of the memory the collective memory in Japan. Eighty eight percent. Of people do not trust vaccines. That's a real aberration, but overall in the developing world, it's incredibly trustworthy. But the problem is if the social media stuff spreads than the herd immunity, that we have starts to be damaged final quick thought on this one Carol because this, this is a question that journalists do have to address when you have a plurality of people believing stuff, which is just obviously not true. But they are choosing to believe nonetheless that it is what can actually be done about that. What is interesting that the health secretary here in the UK has said that he is going to consider legislation to force social media companies to take down false claims about the vaccination program now that's an idea how you police that policing the internet as we know is never very easy to achieve, and indeed even floating. The idea you have had. A bit of a backlash with people saying, well, look censorship of this is not the answer. You've got to combat these misplaced claims with the scientific evidence. How you combat it is always always difficult. How do you combat fake fake news? Of course, all the social media companies said that they are doing more to tackle fake news, generally, and where these claims clearly fall into that realm paps. They could be taken down. But I think the problem is that very often these kinds of rumors are just the sorts of things that do take hold on social media, and they feed into some of the, the new Russi's that there is amongst sophisticated parents, it's a big problem. And as Tim mentions if you reduce the amount of immunity, it then becomes a real risk to vulnerable children in schools in particular. Jerry worker and to Marshall, thank you both for joining us. You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four. You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four. An independent judiciary is, of course, a cornerstone of civilized governance. However, one does not need to look too far for evidence that the world's list, lists civilized, governments are increasingly wondering if an independent judiciary is something they can bypass all live without entirely the new edition of index on censorship. Quarterly magazine takes a look at this phenomenon and at how thorough -tarian governments are learning from each other one joined now by Rachel jolly, the Reuter of the peace and the editor of index on censorship magazine Rachel festival. What's an example of the kind of thing we're talking about here? Do you. When we first started researching yet. I thought we'll just identify a few places where they're supposed to win. Just right. Actually, it, it seems to be happening almost everywhere right now. You see the protests going on in Hong Kong. And, and that's very much linked to the people of Hong Kong thinking, they're going to get absorbed into the Chinese legal system, say. We can see that very much happening on a day-to-day basis. You've got what's happening in Hungary lot right now. So or buying has cried down on the media. He's managed to get control of most of the media now has turned his eyes towards the power of the judiciary. So we saw that the Hungarian government looked at introducing these new, admin courts which would have basically created a new stream of, of course, where the government would have had a lot more power, interestingly. He's just on a u-turn on that. And we believe that, that is under pressure from the EP the European parliamentary group that the, the Fidesz group is part of under concerns from that they that he might lose money and funding from the PNB pushed out he's, he's done a bit of a backtrack. But of course with Auburn, you never know what's going to happen. Next earn the there's always a tension between elected government and judiciary is indeed this supposed to be on the most timid credit constitute. That's, that's kind of how the system works is there for this phenomenon where discussing really anything new or is and is the reason why it's spreading? I think as, as previously discussed what we're saying is governments learning from each other around the world. And what's worrying about this is as we've seen with crackdowns on the media. Now, we're seeing with crackdowns on the independence of the Justice system. You, you look at a president or a government around the world. And they're seeing oh, that's happening over there. We could we could perhaps do that over here. And yes, there's a waste being this tension between the say the judiciary and the president or the prime minister the ruler of a country. But what, what, what is new about it is the punishment that comes afterwards. So, yes, prime ministers, or presidents might seek to put pressure on judges to go with a particular ruling, but if they don't, and they can they can, you know, the, the power that comes off is that they can. Get punished for moving moving in the direction. Government doesn't approve of so I think what we're seeing is a trend around the world where government seek to restrict the independence of the Justice system. I'm one of the things we're very interested in is how what the impact for the freedom of the media, therefore is because often if journalists don't have lawyers that will turn up for them in stand up for them in court, then they are very, very weakened. Well on that front, how big a factor in this. And ideally, how big a factor in resisting. This is public opinion because there is, of course, the fact that if there is anybody in the world that attracts even less sympathy, even journalists lawyers. That's why I think for many of us, we never think about the Justice system or what the law is the rule of law is what that actually means. I mean I was actually recently on a jury and, and that experience is being in a courtroom for three weeks. Made a huge difference to my understanding of how that works. And it was really interesting to me. So here, the members of the jury you paying really, really thoughtful in detailed about what was happening and, and really worrying about a miscarriage of Justice, and, and it starts to strike, you, you know, if this happened to me, I would want this amount of detail, I would want people to care this much about whether they were making the right or wrong decision. But I think for many of us, who haven't had that experience or haven't been to court or haven't seen a friend or family member, go to court. We just turned to take off for granted not care about it. And, and don't really value it for two is re do you perceive, any hope than that? If this is a global phenomenon of undermining of judiciaries, there might be a global backlash. You correctly note the protests against Hong in Hong Kong, which haven't just been sizable protests. They've been among literally, the largest gatherings of human beings ever assembled in history. But does that strike you as just a strange regional peculiarity or? Is too much to hope that we might start to see people understanding what importance, an independent judiciary plays? I think it depends if we see it if it's a, it's a slow erosion of our rights is quite hard to perceive, and that it might be easier for governments to take away piece by piece is different rights and for them to disappear without us as members of the public realizing what was happening, and I would I would like to feel the more and more people are going to be aware of this, but it is, it's a sorts of for many people kind of a theory or concept. And, and until you actually apply it to your life, or your values or what you want from your country. You can't necessarily work out. Why it's important. You say one particular thing to watch in terms of how your government wherever you are in the world behaves towards the judiciary's. Is there one boundary that you really don't want to see the move a step? I think what's really valuable in this country? Also in the US is, is the jury system and that the idea of having members of the public be part of a system that makes judgment. I think is really important. The access to judge to Justice where where places were Justice is just too expensive for most people to access. And we've seen some erosion of that in, in the UK in England and Wales where it's become more and more expensive for people to take cases to court in, they don't necessarily get their cost back in. That's some changes that were made back in two thousand twelve hundred thousand fourteen so it's, it's the access, and it's also where the leader of, of any country becomes, too. I think is becomes too close to those top of the Justice system, the judges, and as, as we've just seen in Brazil also Nora has just appointed a very senior judge. To one of his top political teams. I mean, we have to watch stuff like that. I think very carefully Rachel jolly from index on censorship. Thank you for joining us. You're listening to the briefing. You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four. Earlier this week, the fabled auction house souther B's dropped, the hammer on one of its biggest ever sales itself. Four three point seven billion US dollars. The bidder who waved, this amount was the French telecoms billionaire Patrick drhi, which means that both other bees. And its venerable rival Christie's on now. French owned draw. He's purchase returned southern bees to private ownership after thirty one years, the last few of them bumpy of listing on the new York Stock Exchange. I'm joined now by Georgina Adam editor at large of the art newspaper. Georgina never caught short, pasta certain point. Our anyone arrives at valuations for anything. But when you buy souther Bs for three point seven billion dollars. What are you getting your money? Well, of course, the interesting thing about Saturday's is it doesn't own any of the audit cells or very little what it is. It's an intermediary so it puts. Buyer and sell it together and takes a commission. So what he's getting in the sense is, is the people who go up and down in the lifts. I e the specialists who in our art world, pollens nowhere. The bodies buried. I e nowhere. The works of art can be found and match them up to prospective buyers, either in the auction process, which is what they're best known for. But also in private sales in which the deal is done behind closed doors. I mean, if this thought has occurred to me who hasn't just spent three point seven billion dollars on southern on. I'm sure it has occurred to Patrick dry heat, but also the bees and other auction houses of that ilk. Like Christie's most, obviously still the places the only places you can go for that sort of expertise. And for these sort of art purchases, has the high end up market, not being disrupted in the way that every other market seems to have been. Yeah. It's interesting because they haven't really. I mean you do at the very top. You've got the two Christie's, which is well ahead at the moment of southern bays. But they do handle most of the most expensive pictures that go to washin private sales is the other one of obviously that the real example is the Leonardo da Vinci, four hundred and fifty point three million dollars. It's extraordinary price, but there have been private transactions at about three hundred million dollars and those didn't necessarily even go through a dealer. They went through agents. Nevertheless, the top end of the market is dominated by Southeby's Christie's, we're looking out. So the bees in particular ROY has it been struggling in recent years, if especially if it does have that dominant place at the top of the art market? The problem is that we don't know, we don't know for Christie's because it's a private company, it publishes its own. It's turnover but not its profits. But with other bees, which is still a publicly quoted company until the end of this year. Patrick he is going to take it private. We do know that is actually not very profitable. And the reason is that they have in order to get these major consignments. They have to give away a lot of the money that they would make out of it. They make money out of the more average the more run-of-the-mill works about that they sell through the buyers and the vandals I take commission each way. But in order to get the really juicy consignments, which, of course, attracts other juicy consignments. They have to give to the vendor, they have to give away most of the most of the money, they would make, and this means that, you know that conditions not very good. So is project draw he saw the B's new owner betting. And it is a remarkably large bet on a resurgent art market standing. It's resurgent is extremely good at the Muhammad particularly at the top, Ed. So it it's quite interesting. It's quite clear why he's voted because he's a telecoms cable person and he's moving out of his lane here and going into some. Different and most people buy these auction houses because they are social trophy purchases their prestige in. He is apparently an art collector, although he certainly not a well known art collector. I have heard he collects Chagall the Russian artist he is part is really what he's got to friendships. Rarely nationality. So Chagall is, is quite often, collected by Jewish people. So that would sort of make her that would make sense. So did he buy it because he wants something prestigious did he buy it because he thinks he can make a lot of money with it. I don't think so. It's quite difficult at the moment. Make a lot of money with all these top auction houses. How much of that prestige associated with the bees? And I guess, with Christie's is a component of the value that people like buying things from southern bees, because they can then feel like they're the kind of person who buys things from southern news. Well, that's. Well, that's for. Yes, show that brand the brands and yes, people like the prestige of going in there like the sort of hoopla around the evening sales and that ticketed only you have to be have to get a ticket to come. It's quite exciting. You say millions changing hands, so it's quite seductive field. And perhaps, that's what that's what I honestly, don't know. I don't know Patrick jar. He, he comes with a little bit of a problematic reputation from France. He, he is, is quite aggressive businessman. He owned SF he owns SF air, which is a convenient French communications company, and he apparently Delattre cost-cutting, but he has promised or has said in communications that he's not going to change anything with solid phase. So I think that most of the people that can quite feel safe in their jobs. The moment at least Georgina Adam, thank you for joining us. You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four. And it's time now on the briefing to take a look at the morning newspapers joined in the studio by Monaco's culture editor Kiara Miller, who comes in with newspapers from. Well, partly from your homeland of Italy, but not exclusively for one's surprise. Isn't it? I was about to go all in on. Here's Kiara with the daisy, newspapers from Italy, and it's like no, it's not. I mean we can. In fact, I, I'd like to start with another public because my safe-space feel comfortable that. No, it's an interesting story. I think because Salvini VP traveled to the US, and this is a very remarkable thing because naturally, we all know that Salvini is going to take top spot in terms of media appearances and here is really almost treading on the PM's shoes by going, and presenting himself as basically the intellect intellectual in terms of this, this interaction and Leiper titles, on the fact that the White House is asking Italy in the form of Salvini to go ahead with a T, A P, whatever the cost now, the is the trans Adriatic pipeline pipeline gas, viaduct would connect alternately in. It's kind of full extension central Asia to Italy, specifically southern. In Italy, Portia and belong, part one. Yes, indeed. Let's say the crucial crucial part of it. I guess is the front front. There are no official obstacles do this pipeline being completed as yet, but they're all contrivances and potential obstacles. Rising around, I guess, environmental concerns, which could be raised in Italy by people, including environment minister, who is a figure of the movement five stars. Now, the reason why this is relevant is because the White House asking to do this whatever the cost is almost like encouraging them to upset the political balance, and basically saying, disregard your movement five stars all eyes and just do whatever it takes. And in taken to the extreme conclusions that could mean that they're encouraging them to guess. Ditch the all is corporal elections, and just take the power of themselves which is which everyone's trying to discredit at the moment, you know, Salvini is not in not. But it's kind of on the horizon as looming possibility could potentially happen. Look forward to three. Yeah. Moving on to the, the guardian the, the right here in the UK. It is. Of course, reflecting on as we did earlier in the program, last night's shambolic debate between the funny remaining conservative leadership candidates. Interesting. Obviously titles on Johnson's lucklustre performance. Mean the, the guardian being the guardian, we'll obviously be taking a very much none of the above view of this. Of course, it does specifically critical. I think of Johnson hall because of he was a no show where the previous debates, and also because no-show this one. Yes. And particularly vase of with regards to a lot of the questions, including the one about Islamophobia, mean very much talked about this morning in the UK media, but also really, in terms of kind of real preparations for a potential deal Brexit. Obviously, if you look at it telegraph, which I don't have with me right now. But and their version of events is very much that it was during Johnson. Grow as is now pretty much. But they also they also give credit, I guess, the telegraph due to Royce, ju it's Forman's, which is an interesting thing to do. But we'll see if by the end of the day, it will still be taking part in the next. We will. There is also a story in the guardian I believe it says we should be working lists. Yeah, well, it's interesting, basically, it's saying that Piz. I'm going to shift quickly to it right now. Just one day, the listeners are enjoying the authentic paper Asli, generally have in front of me and titles, just one day of paid work a week linked to better mental health now. I'm on the verge of spotting the floor with his plan on say the theory being that it was said that unemployment actually is banned for people's mental health of Slade of purpose, and etc. But what this, this research is proving trying to prove is that there is no real difference in the, the wellness of a person whether they're working one week or more than one day week so that the one week is just enough to feel purposeful card. You feel about apart from the erosion of your mental health caused by the fact, of course, don't have any money because you're working one day a week. Finally to pice. Yeah. I'm picks this paper because out of the ones that we do have editorial floor. Yeah. Yeah, it is actually quite lot. It's the only one to feature a picture, that's actually being distributions quite widely online, which is image of Greenland with dogs, kind of trudging through what pays and endless siege, obviously, ice melting, and my skull Spanish basically, suggests that the story is about the an alert from the you saying that the plans against climate change insufficient. And this is an image that was shot on the thirteenth of June. When I read about half of the ice sheet surface of Greenland melted quite rapidly, much more so than normal and definitely earlier than normal. It's normal for the chief green into melt during the summer, not quite as as dramatically. And I've read somewhere two billion tons of ice melted, not day and the temperature was twenty two degrees hired normal doesn't sound like the sort of thing that supposed to happen. Yes. That's why this pictures on the front of a newspaper. I think. Jaramillo. Thank you, as always for joining us. You're listening to the briefing. And finally today on the briefing news tudent of history, requires reminding the Balkans, have long served as a battlefield upon which innumerable protagonists have deployed a bewildering catalogue of weaponry. Those e guns are at present Mercifully silent war is being waged by other means if not means, which cloud von Clausewitz might of recognized Turkey is currently seeking to conquer hearts and minds across the Balkans via its soap, operas, which are attracting considerable audiences in. Serbia. Kosovo. Montenegro bosnia-herzegovina. Andy newly anointed north Macedonia, one joined down by monocle bull CNN's correspondent guide alone. Go is is this deliberate policy on Turkey's part or one of those happy accidents like the whole world, discovering, neighbors, and thinking much the bitter of moisture again can foc- for it. You know, there's a bit of both about it, Andrew and did people really think better of Australia after watching neighbors? Well, actually, I'm probably not best. Place to judge that I, I should be asking you that question. But I feel we would be deviating somewhat from the topic at hand, we will be deviating, someone the thing is, if we think about Turkey at the moment, we think about a country with just got a strong lead to put it mildly in one and you might suspect. Okay, this going to be a policy hair of soft power expansion in the neighborhood as it were. And the Balkans are certainly some whether Turkey considers its neighborhood, but the biggest success of any of these Turkish dramas or soap operas was one that Erdmann absolutely hated which was magnificent century, which is set your in the reign of Suleiman the magnificent in the sixteenth, century. And that was a massive hit all across the western Balkans, and many parts of the world was a huge television program got hundreds of millions of people watching that one didn't like it at all, because, you know, he said it wasn't portraying the ultimate empire in the right way. They people did enjoy it and people did. Sponde- to it. And this is in countries which perhaps didn't come on the receiving end of the Ottoman empire. In a way, they would have liked that was that the sort of happy, accident of you like, and one has been giving it a go bit more deliberately. There was a program called the last emperor, which he put out which caused a lot of controversy in Kosovo in particular, because that reminded people of some Turkish interference in domestic policy in Kosovo where they were asking for history textbooks to be rewritten to write out instances of Ottoman atrocities in Africa, ample. So people are aware of what's going on with the soft power game on what the seem to be doing is responding to the shows that they like rather than the shows that say the powers that be in Turkey, but like them to like. So is there a general line on Turkey that the soap operas project? No attending a tool and same way, if you go through the plots of a lot of these soap operas, they're exactly, as you would expect them to be the very soapy, indeed said, examp-. One of the biggest hits ran for five series from twenty five to twenty ten probably still in syndication as we speak was the full of leaves, which is about a family who move from the boonies into done bull and prompt against Vaudin all sorts of family dramas, which has the family falling apart at the seams. The hence the falling of the leaves that's archetypal stuff for a safe Popper multiple generations of the same family and the shenanigans they get into the affairs. They have their business deals that go wrong. People ended up in jail threatening to commit suicide all rest of it. It's there are things that, that anybody recognize but when you go down onto a sort of sociological level, when you look at what the sociologists have said about the appeal of these dramas, they say that they do appeal to a sense of what's being lost in the rush to maternity and many of these countries, they're recognizing in the Turkish soap operas some of the sort of a traditional family values, not just the patriots, but the. Matriarchs as well. And they also a lot of the things obviously, in this region in, you know this region. Well, Andrew, all similar in the western Balkans to how they aren't Turkey, so people are seeing things that they recognize. And so it's a bit of comfort food to be like literally metaphorically isn't weird, though, that they are ingesting comfort food from a Turkish source because obviously it depends where you are in the western Balkans. But the, the years of autumn and centuries. In fact, of Ottoman domination, I think it's fair to say a not recalled with wholehearted fondness. Nope. Any then ought and this is part of the irony. And this is why people I think this explains the reason that's Silliman the magnificent went down. Well of the magnificent century went down, well and the last emperor, which dealt with the events in the nineteenth century didn't go down so well at all. The people can see the difference between Walters. Trying to be revisionist. What is up? No call it soap washing. Just before we go, go do you have a particular favorite Turkish soap opera that you, would you would recommend twelve listeners, you will be stunned amazed. I have not spent an awful lot of time watching Turkish Cyprus, however, one, I like the sound of in a way of the original story of this is Bryant of his STAN bull, which is about, you know, man, from a wealthy well to do family, which wants him to marry similarly, wealthy person marriage for the advantage of the family. He then falls in love with an artist and marries her. And of course, shenanigans NCA. This is apparently based on the, the true story of nineteen seventies Turkish rockstar, who a woman who was married to a man in a similar station, and she actually gave up her career in order to, to pursue love that doesn't sound like a particularly happy ending today, but it's it's good source material for story. We will leave you to go back to your books that with that was the. Nichols balkans. Correspondent guy Delaunay just before we go a rep up of the day's headlines, the president of the United States. Donald Trump has formally launched his reelection campaign in Florida, the leader of the UK's opposition, labor party. Jeremy Corbyn is reportedly preparing to back, a second referendum and Canada's government has approved the expansion of the controversial trans mountain project and just breaking in the last few minutes, three Russians and Ukrainian have been charged over the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight in may seventeen in July twenty four teen that is all for this edition of the briefing. It was produced by Reese, James and Daniel Bauge and research, your lingo fan and Rory. Goodridge stadium today was Kenya skull at the briefing returns tomorrow at the same time midday London. I'm Andrew Miller. Thanks for listening.

United States UK prime minister Carol Walker Iran President Donald Trump Europe European Union BBC Andrew Miller editor Tim Marshall president Italy Theresa May Christie Washington Hong Kong
The Friday News Roundup for March 22, 2019

1A

1:26:41 hr | 2 years ago

The Friday News Roundup for March 22, 2019

"Support for NPR and the following message come from Dulles International Airport with the highest on time takeoff percentage of any airport on the east coast. I a d means I'm already departing more at fly Dulles dot com slash fast. Hey there. It's joshua. Just a quick note before we start the show. A lot of news has broken today, and is still breaking the Friday, news roundup, of course, was recorded earlier. So we discussed a lot of what's been happening, but not everything. So to stay up to date on the very latest. You should keep an ear out on your NPR member station or go online to NPR dot org. Thanks. This is one A. Happy friday. I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington if you're eager to read Robert Muller's report on the Russia investigation, you're not alone. And the president apparently thinks you should read it this week. Mr. Trump said that he supports publishing the special counsel's findings. He also disparaged the report as ridiculous. Rumors of the reports impending release have been making the rounds for weeks. Now who knows it could come out while we're on the air today, which would probably send our panelists running out of the studio to get back to their day jobs at light speed. So let's get to the stories that did make news right away. Just in case joining us here in the studio is Jackie Kucinich, the Washington bureau chief of the Daily Beast. Jackie welcome to one A. Thanks for having me. Also, this new to the roundup is Evan McMorris Santoro, a correspondent for vice news tonight on HBO. Evan welcome. Thanks so much and returning to our table is NPR politics reporter, Danielle Kurtz, LeBron Daniel. Good to see you. Let's set the mullahs report aside for a moment and start with Boeing multiple reports suggest that Boeing is now under investigation by the department of Justice and the FBI sources told CNN the Justice Department's investigation began after a Boeing seven thirty-seven max jet crashed in Indonesia last October all one hundred eighty nine souls on board were lost less than five months after that a second seven thirty seven max crashed in Ethiopia taking one hundred fifty seven souls. So sources tell the Seattle times that that is when the FBI jumped on board the investigation, Danielle let me start with you. If the Justice department has been investigating this plane since last year, what does that mean, particularly since the US was one of the last countries to ground the fleet of seven thirty sevens after this month's crash, that's a really big deal. And there's a lot about this investigation and the possible the possibility of a criminal. Investigation that really sets this apart from other plane crashes a criminal investigation of the Seattle times has been doing some great reporting on this. A criminal investigation is pretty rare. Now, what they're investigating is the certification process and the department of transportation, led by Elaine Chao also is doing an audit, which is also relatively unusual in these sorts of cases. So, yeah, this is a big deal and one other thing is that once again Seattle times reporting, they found that the FAA had been saying, you know, we don't have enough funds. We don't have enough resources to do our own safety checks safety assessments on these new airplanes. So they've been handing some of this off to Boeing, for example in some of these new planes. So you can bet that that is going to be a really big vein of this is the FAA saying the DOJ saying, okay, FAA, why were you doing this? Why didn't you handle some of this yourself Evan? That's exactly what I was going to point to you with. I mean, we did have a larger conversation this week. The FAA, but that is one of the big threads in this story about how the FAA works. What the FAA delegates to airlines and whether the relationship between the two is too cozy or if it is appropriately distant to give proper oversight. Yeah. I mean, I had the shadow times in my smartphone. Full of notes before coming in today on the fact that the air the airline manufacturers airplane manufacturers are self investigating themselves and working with the government on it people need to go and read the story. It's absolutely amazing. The way this works in the spirit of recapping. I look at all of this in kind of a broader picture, which is in the past couple of weeks. We've learned that college admissions are completely phony lie completely totally hacked air airline manufacturers. They investigate themselves. Not to mention everything else. We've learned about all sorts of other stuff in the past couple of years. This is a situation where we know when I'm out and about doing my reporting and people I talk to are. Skeptical of institutions, especially ones in this city here in Washington. This is why they are because planes have gone down. And we find out that, oh, we'll the FAA in Boeing they work together in the end Boeing said, hey, the plane's fine. Then after it's over with now the government steps in to do investigations, by the way. Daniel I forgot to ask you whether the department of Justice has confirmed anything that the Seattle times has reported or have they just kinda stay quiet on as I understand it. They've stayed quiet on this. Yeah. Now, Jackie speaking of investigations, the Pentagon's inspector general has launched an ethics probe into Patrick Shanahan. He's the acting secretary of defense Shanahan worked at Boeing for more than thirty years after he before he took his job at the Pentagon. What's this probe about? And and what should we make of it so far, well it's looking into whether he was you're promoting promoting planes that Boeing made instead over those made by Boeing competitor, Lockheed Martin and saying. Positive things about planes that were made by Lockheed Martin now Shanahan has welcomed this probe as public officials tend to do, but it, but it is significant that they're looking into this. And you know, we also need to mention there hasn't been a head of the FAA. I mean, there's an acting FAA administrator. Now, finally, there's someone nominated, but this agency has been acting without a permanent head and another thing. I wanted to mention as congress starts to look into this. Are Lachlan marquee over at on the Daily Beast found that in February Boeing donated are gave more money than they ever have in one month to members of congress eight hundred and twenty seven thousand dollars in one month. Now, this is before this latest crash. However, that's never an accident. Right. They don't they don't just, you know, something like fifteen million dollars in lobbying last year. Like like, they're number ten in the top ten lobbying. I mean, this is the thing is is all gonna move it or congress now. And when you're watching these members of congress, the actual committee, the Senate transportation committee that will be taking this issue up. Their staff director is a former Boeing lobbyist just the whole thing is kind of like, I just feel like we're really peeling the lid off of something people need to be thinking a lot about when it comes to Washington works. Right. Well, and on top of what you said earlier, those really smart points you made on people's lack of trust in institutions on top of that. You just add the very basic fact that Boeing is such a huge federal contractor. I mean. Right. Just seems like there are so many lines like pieces of yarn. You can put on your cork board here between the government and Boeing Danielle with regards to these hearings. What do we expect to come out of them? Are there any specific questions that senators have said that they will raise from these hearings? I mean, once again, I think you can bet that they are going to ask about the certification process why and also the safety assessment process, why was bowing involved in this so heavily. But I mean, the FAA is also going to come forward. It is not just the head of Boeing. So I would imagine there would also be questions about why other countries were ahead of the United States and saying all right? We're not gonna fly these Boeing jets that have been involved in two crashes. It is not you not lost on me the impact of Boeing for. Sure. Jackie. I mean when you land at Washington National airport when you're driving away from the airport. You look across the street, and there's a big building that says Boeing in huge letters. So the political. Heft of this company. How does that play into the investigation? One would hope that the political half of Boeing wouldn't stand in the way of of safety of air safety. And that's what I think what the FAA has been intimating that it can investigate this without worrying about how much money Boeing spends on the hill, right again, one would hope, and but you find when there's this much of a microscope when it's an involves public safety. You have a lot of speechifying about the independence of congress. But will I mean, and we would hope that and there's going to be a lot of public pressure to make sure that you know, legislators and the FAA get to the bottom of what happened here. But once these as Evans said once the lid starts being pulled from this. Sometimes people won't like what they see. So I think these investigate these these hearings are going to be very important, and we should keep an eye on how much money Boeing starts kicking in. And how who their lobbyists are talking to this is all public information? And I know we're going to be keeping an eye on it. One of our listeners on our website, the one eight dot org. Writes, it costs them billions in the short term hurt their reputation and put their company's long-term prospects at risk regulations saves money and lives that was also one of the discussions that came out this week in terms of the scope of the FAA, and it's changed over the years. Well, yeah, I mean, I want to be clear on the fact that I can't speak for my colleagues here, but I'm not an aviation reporter or expert. The actual the nature of this plane. American Airlines have backed this plane, the FAA is back this plane. They're still there a lot of questions about what actually happened with the plane. All I can talk about is what what happens now with how this becomes politicised. It's now political issue, right? Every politician wants a piece of it every wants to make their point. And as we look through that process. We have to look at the fact that this is a massive defense contractor as we've mentioned that has massive lobbying power regulation, you know, d- US sort of these companies don't want their planes. If all of this guy, nobody wants that to happen. But what we're learning? Now, are the are the practicalities of how this government is dealing with these massive corporations with that push pull that we have in this country endlessly between letting capitalist run free and letting regulators hold them back. I just wanted to add I think we're also going to know how closely they're looking into this. As to who they're talking to pilot unions people would have. In complaining about these planes before these things happened to supreme court stories caught our eye this week, the so-called DC sniper may yet face life in prison without parole now that the supreme court will reconsider his case. Leybold Malveaux took part in a series of attacks back in two thousand to ten people were killed in the Washington metro area. At the time Malveaux was seventeen and justices ruled that mandatory life sentences without parole for miners were unconstitutional. Also this week Justice Clarence Thomas spoke during oral arguments for the first time in three years. His question was about the case of Curtis flowers. A death row inmate featured in the podcast in the dark flowers has been tried in Mississippi for the same crime six times to ended in hung juries and three convictions were thrown out because of prosecutorial misconduct at issue is whether the sixth trial, another conviction should also be thrown out over. Over attempts to weed out black. Jurors Justice Thomas asked what flowers defense attorneys did to reject whites during jury selection. Let's talk about a few environmental stories that made news this week starting with the flooding across parts of the midwest. A number of governors have declared states of emergencies, including in Nebraska, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Missouri Iowa's governor has issued a disaster proclamation. What sense do we have Danielle of the scope of these floods a lot of people are saying that these are absolutely historic. Yeah. I mean in a word huge, and I got to say, I'm from Iowa and talking to my parents back home. My dad is actually a farmer, and I hear a lot about like, listen, it's March, which means it is about planting season in Iowa and Nebraska for corn and soybeans, which of course, are massive exports massive and massive things that we sell in the country from those states. So those farmers have already been hit by tariffs. And now on top of that. They are hit by this act of God, which really could hurt their yields zero and their sales this year, so economically. It's huge. I mean, and even leaving that aside last I checked there were four deaths related to these Nebraska's saying it's losing one point three billion dollars from these floods Iowa will also lose a lot of money. It's absolutely Gorgon. John Jackie Noah has said that we have an unprecedented spring flood season on the way, we're up to twenty five states could endure serious flooding climate change is a hot button issue, particularly going into twenty twenty hate to make a human disaster about politics too much. But considering what we're ramping up for. It's kind of impossible not to right. And I think when you talk to farmers and correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't really I feel like most farmers don't debate climate change. Just is a thing. I mean, it's a thing. They have to deal with it depends on where you are. But it depends. But yeah, I mean a fair number. Yeah. Have to contend with the fact that the weather has changed a lot over their lifetimes. Right. And so. It's not. And you know, you already mentioned that. A lot of these folks have already been hit by the tariffs. And that's something that I'm talking politically both the representatives from those areas and the president is going to have to contend with going into twenty twenty and not only that I mean there have been subsidies for a lot of these farmers who have been hit by tariffs. And when you talk to senators from those areas, they say that farmers don't want government money. They wanna be able to sell their product and make it themselves, but they feel like they have to take it. So will there be more money? Appropriated to these places that have been hit by the floods most likely, and again, this is something that congress is going to have to contend with and largely those up for reelection in two thousand twenty are going to have to explain also something that I think voters are going to have to contend with on one level or another new tastes writes on Twitter. When do we start taking responsibility for climate change? Why don't we take measures to use renewable resources? When will we end our quest for big SUV's? Why are we always? Waiting for the government to tell us the interesting to see how these kinds of natural disasters affect the electric going into twenty twenty. Well, this is a real rubber meets the road moment in terms of the political conversation that we're having I did a story with farmers for vice news tonight on HBO seven thirty pm weeknights like like, I did it. I did it last year. And it was about farmers who are going through intense, psychological stress because of the decline in this case dairy prices that farmers having the sort of form these ad hoc support groups to try to keep it from killing themselves. I mean, there's a lot of really tough stuff going on in the farm country right now. And suicide support you aside support groups in in this case, Wisconsin to try to prevent people from, you know, you're alone on your out in your farm. The prices are going nowhere. There's no money. I mean part of this flooding story than Nebraska agriculture department says that over the past five years farmers in that state have lost. Sixty percent of their income. I mean, we're talking about huge huge economic problems. But on the other hand, those same farmers that I was talking to in the middle of this time where you know, they can talk about tariffs hurting their bottom line and climate change and everything else they love this president, and they love their publican party. I mean, I I was just in Iowa not from IO, but I'll just in Iowa this week doing a story, and it was in Davenport, Iowa following democratic candidates in downtown Davenport. I ran into a guy who saw me interviewing people and pulled me aside that, hey, I'm a Trump supporter, but I don't want to tell anybody in here. And I'm kind of feeling not that great about him anymore. I don't know. And fifteen minutes down the road is the world's largest truckstop on eighty. It's called and everybody in. There was wearing a Trump Donald Trump hat, and they're perfectly happy to do it. This is a real question for Democrats and for the rest of the rails going forward. Right. Is that if you're a former losing sixty percent of your income, but you also really don't like what Illinois mar said, right? What do you do? And nobody. Has any idea what people are going to do yet? And that's really what the Democrats have to worry about in the mid west with regards to the human aspect of this Ron on Facebook writes, why does it matter? What the reason is we're probably past the point of stopping this rolling disaster. It's all about mitigation. Now, isn't it Daniel? Yeah. And having to add to what Evan said one thing that I'm interested in is. I was just on the campaign trail in New Hampshire following that will work around. And prior to that I was following Bernie Sanders through New York, and Chicago, and why I say that is that I've seen these candidates the say, their usual, applause lines. But the line that overwhelmingly every time gets among the biggest applause, if not the biggest applause at any rally or any stop is about climate change Democrats at least democratic primary voters are very fired up about this. But the interesting thing is going to be go out to Iowa watched the Iowa primary voters and the non primary voters, maybe the more moderate islands like some of those farmers or more conservative islands. I guess and see how do they feel about it does that appeal to them or do they just shrug it off as you know? Part of a culture war or something like that another environmental story that caught our attention this week. And Obama era appointed federal judge has ruled that the bureau of land management, which is part of the department of interior has broken the law. The ruling on Tuesday said the violation happened when the bureau failed to thoroughly assess the impact of oil and gas leasing in Wyoming, the judge temporarily blocked drilling on three hundred thousand acres of land in Wyoming now Jackie Kucinich, this is a temporary block. But this case is is significant it's kind of bringing the climate change argument into federal policy in federal regulation. They the politics that we've seen played out across the country. I think are going to also play out here, you have the governor of Wyoming. Mark Gordon saying that they might appeal this decision. He's and you have they're talking a lot about jobs. You have Senator Barosso from Wyoming saying that this is blocking people from you know, gay. Employment. So again, you have the environment pitted against potential jobs, and that is going to be lens through you know, that partisans see this through just talking cheer politics, and don't you feel like as long as I conversation is jobs versus the environment. The people talking about the jobs are on the better side of that argument depends on what you're talking to you. I mean, that's an issue that this is about is that like when you're talking about a situation like this drilling issue, and is actually an Obama era lease that that that that the that the judge said the problem with the lease was at it didn't take into account the climate change potential from the actual carbon removed from the ground and burned. Right. Which is which is something that environmental been talking about for a long time. They wanna leave stuff on the ground to keep it from being burned off. But is, but if the argument is nobody gets a job because because because we don't drill. It's a very tough argument to have right. I mean, we talked when you're caller the smart reader wrote in about this. This is really the difficulty is that the Democrats to make it. So they're not talking about there's no jobs here. They talk about all the jobs, you're going to get because you don't drill that stuff Atla ground, although then yell it is worth noting. We were in Colorado earlier this month in Greeley, Colorado, which is the heart of oil and gas country, we aired part of our conversation from there. Just this week. And if you talk to people who work in oil and gas, which was a significant contingent of the audience at this event bay take a great deal of pride in doing an honest day's work for an honest day's wage in working for an industry that the nation needs because we're not ready to go all renewable yet at all. We're not even close and also working in an industry that from their perspective has gone farther toward being more ecologically friendly. So that its environmental footprint is smaller now than it's ever than it's ever been. So it's not as black and white when you look on the ground, right? Yeah. And I mean, they're right. I imagined they have this feeling of haven't gone far enough. Well, it depends on which ecologist you ask about we'll go even farther, but this job needs to sell exist. Right. But this speaking of jobs, though, I mean, this kind of pivot off of what Evan was saying is that this is the very tough rhetorical turn that Democrats are trying to make here with for example, the green new deal is. Trying to tell voters listen we need to stop climate change. But also that doesn't necessarily that doesn't mean fewer jobs. In fact, it can mean more jobs now how convincing that's being is. Once again, hyper polarizing, I think it's hard to find a an issue out there right now or a proposal, I suppose that is more that makes voters either more super excited or super angry and yelling than the green new deal right now. Crystal wrote on our Facebook page, I am also from Iowa and speaking to my parents back home getting political they were Trump supporters. They were hit by the tariffs for their crops. They're dealing with climate change. But they are still avid Trump supporters. Let's talk about the White House. The administration this week homeland security secretary Kirchen Nielsen has been spending time at a border patrol station in mcallen, Texas, right on the US Mexico border at a press conference yesterday. She said the US was being forced to release immigrants coming into the country because of a lack of. Of detention space. Now, Jackie some immigration lawyers have argued that the Trump administration is releasing undocumented immigrants for political reasons. The secretary says that it's resourceful related who's like what we read from. This is either. Right. Are they both right? I think it's I mean it I don't know the answer to your question. Honestly, I it is this is an issue that's become so polarizing in this country in terms of what the administration is doing. I mean the ACLU filed a complaint yesterday. I think saying that. Detainees that have religious beliefs aren't having those honored. There are complaints every day in terms of how detainees are being treated. So and then you have you know, the administration making their arguments. So I think I I can't answer your question right now to be perfectly honest that is wonderfully honest answer. That that's kinda sums it up. We'll we'll beyond that Evans secretary. Nielsen also called on congress to enact new immigration laws to give homeland security more resources to deal with border issues. Maybe this is another question that doesn't have an answer. But I wonder where we stand now. And I'll give it to you have. And this is how we how we as the new guy right in terms of where congress stands on immigration policy. I mean, the the border wall was super galvanizing and kind of forced everyone into corners. But in terms of the more granular aspects of policy what now where are we? Well, if you go to congress, and you yell into an open hallway, do you support border security everybody in that hallway yell back? Yes. What does that mean? I don't know. What is it going to offices and ask them what that means one by one you get a million different answers. Right. I mean. A lot of this stuff is not that controversial too long ago. Right. The idea. Okay. So we're going to, you know, put some more security on the border. We wanna make sure the borders. You know, things we don't want coming across you aren't coming across. We have you can look at the things that are coming in. But now, it's such a political football that it's very difficult for anybody to have any kind of on honest conversation about it, really. I mean, I do feel like the Democrats put forward their ideas, and they're for border security ideas. But they're not the wall or whatever. And meanwhile, when we're talking about with Jackie was just stumped by I'm also stumped by this answerable question. This is a question of people who are not even criminals are like imprisoned there like guests of the United States, and we can't figure out how to treat those people. So it's very intractable right now. All I can say is from what I heard on the campaign trail this week in the pre in the previous week. Democrats are kind of leaning away from talking a whole ton about border security the way I heard them talking that the that the democratic candidates. We're talking more about compassion more about why people actually do make this trek, especially we're talking about these young unaccompanied minors, and why they might, you know, their parents might send them from Honduras to walk all the way to the United States. That's a slight rhetorical shift its anecdotal. I don't have enough information to say it's happening all over the place. But these candidates are not doing what they were doing before. If you think about like Obama, for example, leaning very heavily into border security in the hopes that that brings the more conservatives to their side, they're saying, look, there's this is humanitarian crisis. Most people are good people. We do the right thing and stand by them. And that's not the kind of thing that brings people together side, although Danielle with regards to congress there might be a time peg for this because we're in budget season. So that might be one of these moments where we do get a little expression from at least some members of congress of what they want. Homeland security to have or not have with regard to the border. Right. I mean, I guess in terms of the budget. It's like you asking Jackie and Evan is. Okay. So should the should ice should DHS have more funds to be able to handle all of these immigrants who are coming in because why are these immigrants being released well the customs and border patrol saying that it's because they don't have they don't have the space for them it lay. There's just overcrowding. So if you ask members of congress, hey, appropriate these funds. I think the the question, of course, is and once again, I have to say, I don't know what's going to happen. But the question is well that money be used for for like two lock more people up. I think you'd have plenty of members of congress who would say, no, thank you. Now, if it's to deal with more immigration cases, more asylum cases, for example, which I don't know if the Trump administration would propose that. But I imagine you would have people say, yes. So it's all about the what the money is for if not necessarily the amount of money. Let's talk a bit about a comment that the president made and for reasons that. Seem a little unclear he renewed his attacks on the late. Senator John McCain. He was speaking to workers at a tank manufacturing plant in Lima, Ohio. I've never liked him much hasn't been for me. I've really probably never will. That was President Trump speaking in Lima, Ohio Jackie why would the president say this? Where do I begin? So it it it. It is clear. The president doesn't like John McCain. He associates now, John McCain with the Steele dossier because of a report that you know, McCain was given this and he gave it to the FBI. And because of that the president now thinks that John McCain was trying to locate him. So I, you know, I I don't know that there's a lot of political thought that goes into the president slamming John McCain, the reports that you know, he thinks it galvanizes the base. There are lots of things that galvanize the president's base. The base is going to be with the president no matter what. So and his staff has asked him to stop doing this. You've even seen members of congress this week start speaking out. I mean, congressman John sorry, excuse me. Senator Johnny Isakson from Georgia is not known for being a firebrand by any stretch of the imagination. And yet he went on NPR this week in Georgia. I believe. So to speak out against what the president is doing and to defend John McCain, you had congressman Crenshaw tweet stop talking about John McCain, Lindsey Graham who was the John McCain's best friend was more tepid. But, you know, ask the president to stop talking about John McCain's really uncomfortable for Republicans when the president does this. But this is just this is a grievance that the president will not let go, and I think he thinks John McCain dad the last word, and he can't let go I will say this. It is now my new life goal to upset a president from beyond the grave, right? John McCain is this going within. We got within you build the right life together. Kind of an afterlife goal not an afterlife goal box business. You had you had. Maria maria. Oh, thank you very much say, you know, he can't punch back. John. Mccain cannot punch back from beyond the grave. What is the president doing? Well, but the other narrative through this Danielle in terms of punching back has to do with Republicans who said nothing about the former Ohio governor, John casick blasted the president on Twitter and on TV he is. Now, a political analyst on CNN. And here is what governor case it said about why he sought members of congress were reluctant to condemn President Trump careerism over leadership. You know, I'm in office. I want to stay in office. I kinda like it. You know, I'm a United States Senator I'm like a Flamingo. I get the flap around and be important, and sometimes you can be addicted to a job like that like AFL Mingo around, it's it's vivid. But I do take his point Daniel this idea that the president might be opposing the president even on something that just is kind of an off handed. You know, were Mark might be politically threatening. 'cause it might. Well. Yeah. And I mean, it's fitting that John casick political analyst said that, you know, criticizing his colleagues who are still politicians. So I mean, yeah. I mean, you you saw this in the range of responses people had right? Like Johnny is accent. I believe there were used was deplorable Joni Ernst, the Senator Republican Senator from Iowa, likewise, criticized Trump, but then you had this middle ground of Republicans who they didn't say nothing, but they just went on Twitter. For example, had said John McCain was a great guy. He was a hero but didn't act, but these senators didn't actually say anything against President Trump this. I mean, this is a golden oldie of Trumpy though, you think back, right? Well, sure is the first time in Trump's campaign for president that everybody thought it was over it was in Iowa when he seeing next to Franklin's, and he says I like people who didn't get captured. Every reporter every Republican was like he's done. He's doomed. And of course, you went on to win most of the primaries, and then the White House. So I think not to like say, it's a profile encouraged not stand up for John McCain here. But like the fact is Trump has proven over and over and over again, they're Republicans are not going to leave him if he attacks John McCain, well, and even beyond that Cecchi, I think, you know, during the the latter part of Senator McCain's life, he kind of represented the old school Republican party. And also the old school Senate when he gave that speech where he called for return to regular order and try to get his colleagues to ignore the pundits on cable news that that something about the Senator and particularly in his funeral which nearly everyone who spoke kind of alluded to one way or another held him up as an example of the way Washington used to be for better or worse. But that's kind of what he stood for. And that's what the president ran against. Now. I think it was more personal with the president. And John McCain. I don't think that's the only reason and. There was a lot of John McCain's funeral that was a direct rebuke of the president the president wasn't invited to John McCain's funeral. So I think that grievance runs deep. I think the biggest difference. Now is that I mean, John McCain was alive, he could defend himself, or you know, brush off what the president says it's now that you know, he's been gone seven months and the president is still attacking him not only for his health care vote. But also for for the the the thumbs down, but also for you know, his involvement, I guess with the the Steele dossier, speaking of presidential fused Daniel. There's one other that we wanted to touch on very briefly that the president has kind of been all over George Conway. The husband of one of his top aides, Heli Conway. Boeing seven thirty seven max eight. Yeah. What what is this about? And and does it matter in the scheme of things now. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry answer the second part for no, really. I mean, this is kind of an ongoing storyline about Kellyanne Conway being a fierce supporter of the president and one of his most let's say effective kind of media defenders. And then George Conway her husband being very vocal about his dislike of the president, and it becoming increasingly a public flashpoint. Right. And I I wanna be clear like I forgive me for being flip. I was just telling Jackie before we came in the studio like, I don't even know what to say about this because listen, it doesn't matter. I mean in the grand scheme of the problems facing this country. That's what I mean. No, it doesn't. But I mean it does show. It does show. Just how intense the faultlines are with this president. It's just it feels a little bit odd. Maybe even gross to watch a couple's marital spats be public. But yes, what has been going on? Is that Kellyanne Conway, of course, spokeswoman for the president is always out there defending him and George Conway her husband is constantly on Twitter lately, he has been questioning the president's mental fitness to hold this office. It's. I gotta be honest. I don't know what else to say about it strikes me as it strikes me as honestly kind of picky unit. I don't know if it's really that big of a deal, it shows just kind of at a broader sense it shows the ability of the president to ignore this to ignore to ignore a slight. And yes, this is the husband of one of his top aides. But if he didn't elevate it it would be, you know, Washington speak. It's the fact that the president is elevating it and addressing it makes makes it more of a national issue. Frankly, not a national issue in terms that that's going to affect anybody. But he's elevated him. So that we're talking about it instead of it just being sort of a Twitter thing. Yeah. So let's try sand effect. Shoot destroys end. Yeah. This is a I don't remember the story. Exactly. But the it's the the term for the phenomenon where something bad happens, and or something potentially embarrassing in your life happens and you talk and in in Utah. Talk about it, and that directs attention towards it in a way that you don't want it to or like, you try to keep people away from a topic. And that just brings more attention to the topic is the best is staying very good. Is that is exactly what happens every week with this guy. Let's shift gears from that to the other big speculation in Washington. It's the one we alluded to at the beginning of the program, and we don't want to ignore it. We should touch on it a bit because the speculation has grown for months over when special counsel Robert Muller's report into the two thousand sixteen election will finally be released it could be any day. Now, it could be any moment. It could have already come out. We don't know. But at a press conference on Wednesday, the president weighed in on whether the report should be made available to the public. Here's part of what he said, I just one one of the greatest elections of all time. They shouldn't. It's even you will admit that and now apps somebody writing a report that never got vote. It's called the modern report. So explain that because my voters don't get it. And I don't get it. Now at the same time. Let it come out. Let people see that's up to the attorney general a very good attorney general's very highly respective, and we'll see what happens, but it's sort of interesting that a man out of the blue just right to report that's President Trump speaking on Wednesday. Evan would we make of the president's apparent endorsement of this report? Well, I don't think he endorsement of its publication. I'm sorry. Oh, well, I don't think he has much choice. This thing is going to come out one way or another right? It's gonna be very complicated and convoluted way comes out and also I mean, just to you know, to look back in the sands of time a bit. You know, the Ken Starr report came out against Bill Clinton, and he stayed president. I mean, we don't know what this report is going to say, we don't we don't do. We don't know what they're gonna do. We do know that aren't enough votes in the United States. Senator moved this president from office the FBI the impeachment process at this point. I mean, we've something really remarkable have to happen. So look he's gonna have to suffer through this new cycle. No matter what. Why say I don't want it. I mean, he say whatever he wants. But I'm just saying like doesn't history says he can weather this. And Trump definitely believes that he can we also should Jackie that the report is not designed to just be dropped the public like there's a process that report is intended to go through. I right. I mean, so the attorney general will decide you know, what what what is released and the White House will also try to get things redacted that they will say is is part of privilege. But I to Evans point, I think if this didn't come out if the president tried to bury it that would be an issue that would be what are you hiding, and we should also note things don't end with the Muller report. There are several congressional investigations going on. I can't imagine that Muller won't be in front of one of these committees. At one point talking about the report there are I think three congressional committees. I can think of that have ongoing investigations this doesn't end. This is the beginning. Once this report is released, right? Daniel what do we know about the attorney general stance on what to do with the Mola report? Once he gets it does has he said anything about making it public. So he was asked in his William bar. The attorney general was asking his confirmation hearings. Will you make this report public flat out? I'm paraphrasing here, and he didn't commit to saying. Yes, he has said he believe his wording was something. The effect of as much of it as I can. But we don't know one hundred percent for sure what he's going to make public and we should be clear. He doesn't have to make the report. Now, that's not part of the deal. There are certain. There are rules put in place that sort of outline what he has to put in this report the sort of. Here's who were charging. Here's who we're not hear the whys and wherefores of it. But we don't exactly know we, but he does have a fair amount of discretion as I understand it on this. Yeah. Duino why this round of speculation has kicked up? I mean, I've been seeing the phrase any day now on cable news for like the last twenty four hours. Why do people here in DC seem to think that it's imminent? Well, when it comes to Washington is read with Jackie's reporters say, and then I say. Quarterback sandy wrote a great piece a week or two ago about how many times the Miller report released has been imminent. It's a fundraiser definitely read it. I mean, look it sounds to me like if you liked Muller anticipation coverage. Just wait till you have did we see the whole report coverage. I mean, it sounds like we got chirons for days on this thing still coming shop. I what I will say as we do have the occasional breadcrumbs that hints that it's coming soon. Right, for example. And I'm plugging my colleagues work shamelessly here. My colleague Carrie Johnson NPR recently reported that Andrew Weisman one of the top prosecutors involved in this recently said that he's leaving soon. He's going to go teach at NYU. So I mean, it's that kind of thing that feeds this speculation that like, oh, well, maybe they don't need this guy anymore. Maybe he's about done in a warning. Sweet tea leaves. Oh, yes. But it's not that this comes out of nowhere. You know? There's just reporters. Get these bits and pieces and everybody tries to look at the puzzle. It's just the extrapolation that kind of gets people into almost definitely molars wearing a hat yesterday. You know, what that means? It was cold. Interesting take. Usually at the end of the show. The kicker is the funny part, I could just leave it to the three to finish this line of logic. I don't need to read these last few pages. Go ahead. Jackie go to the gym. Oh. No, no, no. I'm going to shift gears and give you one more story that has nothing to do with politics, or maybe everything to do with politics. There is a fake cow who has been the focus of a lawsuit this week from publican congressman Devin Nunes of California, his beef get it is with a fake Twitter account maimed Devin Nunes cow it's at Devon count. The account's creator takes delight in insulting Nunez and other conservatives and the congressman is suing for defamation. But the lawsuits impact might have backfired the parody account now has six hundred fifteen thousand followers that is two hundred thousand more followers than newness account has one last story that is pretty cheesy. Scientists in Switzerland, performed a unique dairy experiment. They played music into cheese that is aging to see how the tunes might affect the taste. They held a contest for which John recreated, the tastiest one Led Zeppelin versus Mozart versus a tribe called quest. And of course, hip hop one. Because if you wanna make anything delicious, it's got to be funky NPR, political reporter Daniel Daniel, thanks for being with us. Thank you. Jackie Kucinich, the Washington bureau chief for the Daily Beast. Thanks, jackie. Thank you very much and Evan McMorris Santoro correspondent for vice news tonight on HBO Evan. Thanks very much. This is really fun. Great show. Thanks. We'll dive into the international section of the Friday news roundup in just a moment. Stay close. Pay attention. It's not hard to dislike Bill or you can take out. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from legalzoom business owners can count on legalzoom for legal advice and no surprises over two million. Business owners have trusted legalzoom for LLC's escorts and db as they've built a network of independent attorneys available in all fifty states and legal zoom provides complete transparency with upfront pricing and customer reviews to bring you peace of mind. More information is available at legalzoom dot com slash NPR on the new episode of invisibility our relationship to uncertainty. What do you do when you have no idea? What to do? Maybe everything that. We've thought was right is wrong. Maybe reliving life upside down. I I don't know that's up next on invisibility. This is one A. Happy friday. I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington. President Trump's signaled a major foreign policy shift endorsing Israel sovereignty over the Golan Heights. He made that surprise endorsement yesterday on Twitter six days after a brutal attack on two mosques in New Zealand. It's government announced a ban on military style assault weapons. The EU. Granted Britain's prime minister a brief extension to the Briggs deadline with some conditions. Brazil's new president made a visit to the White House where the so-called Trump of the tropics received glowing praise from our president. And Pepe the pig. Took some heat in London plenty to discuss today in the Friday news roundup joining us in studio to discuss it is Courtney QB national security and military reporter for NBC news, Courtney good to see you again. Thanks for having me Franko or Dona White House correspondent for McClatchy with a focus on immigration and foreign policy. Franco, welcome great to be here. And joining us from London, Michael. Goldfarb the host of the podcast first rough draft of history. Michael welcome back to the roundup pleasure to be here. Let's begin with Israel and that tweet from the president. Here's what he posted on Twitter yesterday, quote after fifty two years, it is time for the United States to fully recognize Israel sovereignty over the Golan Heights, which is of critical strategic and security importance to the state of Israel and regional stability unquote, before we get to the import of that tweet Courtney QB just explained the goal on heights to us. What is it? Where is it? Why does it matter? Okay. So this is a small area along Israel's northern border with Syria. It's sort of a plateau it sits slightly higher. They history was it was captured by Israel from Syria at the end of the six day war in nineteen sixty seven Israel began to settle the area. Some of the Syrian Arabs fled some stayed behind Syria. Tried to retake it from Israel and nineteen seventy three. And despite the fact that they. Early military took a lot of casualties. They were actually able to thwart the attempt and hold onto it the following year. They agreed to an armistice that led to a UN observer force being along the armistice line. That's been in place since then fast forward to nineteen Eighty-one. Israel annexed the Golan Heights in in a move that was not recognized internationally and remains not recognized by the international community. It now is about half Syrian mainly Druze sect the religion and about half Isreaeli. So at this point, there's there's a to UN resolution Security Council resolutions that declare that it is not Israeli owned in administrated administered territory, but since nineteen Eighty-one they have claimed it as an annex location for them. So who actually controls the Golan Heights now it so the people who are in favor of President Trump's move of saying that that Israel is in charge of it would argue that in fact this. This is just something that has been an accepted fact that Israel has been in charge of it. But the reality is according to the UN, and according to the vast majority of this of the world of nations around the world, it is is really occupied territory. But what's what's interesting, President Trump? He's in that tweet. He was right in that. This is this region this area does hold a very strategic importance to the Israelis as I mentioned. It's a plateau it sits somewhat. Hi, it's it's right along the border with Syria it borders Syria, and because it sits somewhat height actually holds a military strategic value to them. They can Israel can literally see into Syria, and it it has a natural buffer zone to to any kind of military force that might want to invade Israel from Syria. And this, of course, comes at a time where Iran is just so dug in the ground on the ground in Syria that that that's an important value to Israel right now. Michael Goldfarb, I wanted to get your take also on that. The tweet where he referred to strategic insecurity importance to the state of Israel and to regional stability. What do you make of that part of a tweet regional stability. Well, there is no regional stability. Actually, the Golan has been about a staple as it had as he gets in that part of the world, there's a fascinating article by Steven cook and foreign policy this week, noting that, you know, really, it's an announcement about something that's kind of defacto accepted around the region that this is, you know, Israel's annexation may not be legal. But that Israel is not going to be pushed off. So that there the other reason for this is of course, you know, President Trump is doing his good friend, Prime Minister Benjamin to not Benjamin Netanyahu was solitaire. There's an election in Israel and a couple of weeks and being on Yahoo. Enthusiastically tweeted about this is a miracle. This is a miracle. He's doing. Him a favor by stating the obvious at a time when it wasn't really in dispute. And you know, what's interesting. I just like to add in is that in the New York Times right up of this. I saw quote from cyb Erica, who's the veteran Palestinian Authority peace negotiator. I mean, he's been at this for decades. And why he still is added as opposed. Some new generation is another question, but he says it'll be certain destabilization and bloodshed in our region because of this, and you think, you know, in Syria and in Yemen. There are real wars going on there's already tremendous destabilization. And so it's more. It's more about electoral politics, both in the US where Donald Trump consolidates his his connections with a conservative leaning American Jewish community, and it's about Netanyahu getting electoral benefit because many Israelis like the idea that there's an American president who seems to be so very close and interested in Israel with regards to that election wan to emailed is anyone really surprised by Trump's pronouncement that Israel has sovereignty over the Golan Heights. It's his buddy BB Netanyahu is in a tough battle for re election and Donald is doing everything he can to help him. Is it any coincidence? That Netanyahu is coming to the White House next week ahead of the April election. Well, Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did speak at a joint press conference alongside secretary of state, Mike Pompeo and Netanyahu called the move by president. Trump a miracle. You did it again. I recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital moves the US embassy here, then he pulled out of the disastrous Iran, really. But now he did something of equal stark importance. That's rarely Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu speaking at a joint press conference with secretary of state, Mike, Pompeo, Franko or Donas. What do you make the argument that the president is just doing this to help prop up Netanyahu ahead of this election next month? I mean, I I agree with with much of what Michael was saying that this was a solid for Netanyahu. I've been talking about sources for weeks about how Trump was, you know, watching this watching this election being very interested. And there was a lot of speculation about what could this administration do to help Netanyahu in an appropriate manner? Look, historically, the United States presidents have kind of stayed out of foreign elections like this. But Trump is no ordinary president. Let's also remember that it was not that long ago that we put when we put when he announced pulling troops out of Syria on Netanyahu in Israel were very very concerned. This is a dramatic turn of events. It's it's a huge favor. And you heard it there when Yang who said he did it again the longer clip. He, you know, it's you could hear it in his voice in the pod. It was amazing. You combine that with moving the embassy to Jerusalem, there's so much that President Trump has. Done on to help Netanyahu. You mentioned the visit next week by Netanyahu. The that is going to be seen as a campaign stop. This is a life raft for Netanyahu really really endanger of losing Courtney. There's another aspect of this worth talking about and Richard Haass, who's the head of the council on foreign relations referred to it today in his interview on NPR's morning edition. Here's part of what he said. Well, whatever little chance the United States to be an effective, honest broker and to try to negotiate any peace between Israelis and the Palestinians. I think that's essentially eliminated. That was Richard Haass, the head of the council on foreign relations, speaking on morning edition. What about that assessment? This idea that the US can no longer be considered an honest broker after this. Well, so part of that is because this comes right before the expected release or announcement of the administration's plan for Middle East peace. They expect the expectation is that that was going to come out after the is the elections in Israel and a couple of weeks. You know, I. I think one reason that so many people are questioning and critical of the timing of this announcement is that there was no obvious inflection point. You know, Michael mentioned that there hasn't there's not been some tensions that have been overflowing in the area. There's they're worse talks between Israel and cereal for some time about what was going to happen in the Golan Heights. But they broke down when the series of a war began eight years ago. So there was no obvious turning point. That was coming decision point that was looming that led to this which is leading so many people to look at this and say, well what's coming. It's the Israeli elections. We have Netanyahu's a very close friend of President Trump, and of you know, first son-in-law, Jared Kushner who faces a starkly strongly contested race. He's running against a popular former army chief Benny Ganz, and it comes at a time where he also may be facing indictment charges of bribery fraud and breach of trust. And you know, as Michael mentioned, he the President Trump really did him a solid. What everyone forgets though, is that this is actually one of the tweets. From President Trump that really has no practical impact, you know. It's not there's no it's not like the US has made any kind of change in law. This is the president tweeting something that at this point doesn't have any actual stick behind it or juice behind it. Besides him announcing that the administration is backing this Michael would love you to respond to Richard who emailed you're missing the value of the Golan Heights until nine hundred sixty seven Syria kept firing down on Israel from the Golan Heights. And had a commanding view of the upper Galilee Israel is now able to avoid Syrian aggression from Golan Heights, Michael what do you make of that? I mean, Richard is right and historical sense. And we should point out to listeners who don't know the geography, I mean, it is a very short drive from the top of the Golan to Damascus. And it's a matter of forty or fifty miles. Courtney can correct me if I'm wrong on that. And it, but the last time I did a big piece from Israel with the start of the second intifada. I was told by pretty left wing Isreaeli that the real reason they like the go on is that it's been planted over with vineyards in the the really good. Israeli wine comes from the Golan region. That's why is never going to get it back. I mean what I what I think is important to remember is that since. There was the the victory in nineteen Seventy-three when Israel was caught on the back foot in the kipper war, and then by the end of the decade, Egypt and then Jordan made separate peace with Israel. And I don't think that Syria on its own has ever been in a position to retake the Golan Heights, which is why it kind of, you know, Israel next it, but it was kind of defacto as I said earlier, and I don't think that there's Richard should remember that there's no likelihood of Syria coming at anytime soon. I mean, Israel's interest at the moment in Syria is in monitoring Iran's involvement in the Syrian civil war. And we also often forget because you know, some America Centric that you know, the big player now in that civil war is not America. It's the Soviet Union and BB Netanyahu is on the phone with fled. Amir Putin a lot as well. He's not just in touch with Donald Trump. And Jared Kushner, so I it's quite complex. But I don't think that Syria has been any kind of threat to retake the Golan to be in a position to rain shells down on Galileo is the as they did at one point. But that was forty five fifty years ago. One more piece of this. Israel's story that I wanted to touch on before we move on and talk about what's been going on in New Zealand secretary state might pump pale made some striking comments in an interview with the Christian broadcasting network. A reporter from CBS news asked the secretary if it was possible that God raised up President Trump to help save the Jewish people from what the reporter referred to as the Iranian menace Pompeo replied that as a Christian. He believed that could be possible. He said, quote, I am confident that the Lord is at work here, unquote. And they also made a comparison to the story of Queen Esther in the bible, Frank. Ordonio donas. What do we make of this? I mean Pompeo entitled to his religious beliefs. But what about that? I mean pump HALE is entitled to his religious beliefs. He has very strong religious beliefs. I mean, when I do think we should note the audience this was a Christian broadcasting or the audience was speaking to an audience who who also has very strong religious beliefs. And this is not as as as eye catching an ear opening that this could be, you know, this is Pompeo's background. He often invokes his his religion, his Christianity and the work. He does he is among a leading cabinet members. He who who sit down every week with Mike Pence and others in bible study. I think it's every Wednesday. They get together. And they don't they talk about. How President Trump often speaks about God. This is also I just want to know, this is something that the administration has embraced Sarah Sanders. Just just a couple. Months ago, she talked about in a similar type questions she mentioned that God wanted Donald Trump to be president. And this is so this is something that, you know, they they are not afraid to invoke the Lord when talking about their duty here. Although I gotta say Courtney it is a leading question that the reporter. I mean, he asked is possible that God raised up Trump. I mean, if you how no it's impossible that God picked out like what what else was he going to say. Yeah. I mean, he will keep the reporter pushed him in a direction that it kind of hard to veer anymore. But I will say Pompeo kind of grabbed it and kept running with it. And so, you know, and, but we have to keep in mind unit as Franco was saying, this is not this does not divert from where we know Mike Pompeo as a Christian as a strong man of strong Christian faith. I think the reason that it's so jarring to us is because we in this country have such a strong separation of church and state that to hear something like that. Even the notion floated that President Trump was raised up by God to become the president of the United States to push aggression back on Iranian aggression, is it's unusual for this country. Let's shift gears to another story from around the world that's had our attention. It's been a week since a mass shooting lift fifty people did in New Zealand. It's prime minister just into Arden announced that New Zealand is making some big changes today. I'm announcing that New Zealand will ban all military style. Seamy automatic weapons. We will also ban all assault rifles. We will ban old KAI, capacity magazines. We will ban all paths with the ability to convert seeming automatic or any other type of firearm into a military style. Seamy automatic weapon we will ban pats at who's a firearm to Gina right seamy, automatic automatic or close to automatic gunfire and short every semi automatic weapon used in the terrorist attack on Friday will be banned in this country. It's about all of us. It's in the national interest. And it's about safety that was New Zealand's Prime minister to to ardor novice national Ben's still needs to be approved by parliament, but New Zealand's largest opposition party has already promised to support. This measure, Michael Goldfarb. I wonder what your sense of is of how this will play out, particularly because the opposition is on board. And there's also the practical matter. Of how the ban will work in terms of getting these weapons and weapon parts out of people's hands. But I think first of all it's possible in a country like New Zealand, which is small doesn't have fifty state with certain rights under a constitution to make their own gun laws doesn't have an NRA. And you know, I it seems likely they're the reporting that I've seen from New Zealand. We get quite a bit of it here. Because it's you know, it's part of the British Commonwealth. Indicates to me that, you know, people live out in the Bush and to have semiautomatic weapons not so much to to shoot other human beings. But because it's a pretty wild country down there. If you're a farmer out in the middle of nowhere, you might occasionally need one of these things they understand that there's a need to get rid of them. We had a similar thing here, by the way in Britain thirty odd years ago, there was an attack on an elementary school in Scotland in a place called Dunblane and within a fortnight. The gun laws were changed parliament had one of its rare moments of unanimity and everybody came together. It's possible. Parliamentary system to say, you know, what we're taking these kinds of weapons off the streets. Pistols, you got to register them and keep them in a gun club. It it's like that. You can't do that in the United States. And by the way, Andy Murray, the tennis champion just by chance wasn't in Dunblane elementary school that day when I think about twenty of his classmates or slaughtered. So it's it's an extraordinary story. But you know, it's not something I think that's easily done in the United States. It also I think have revealed some political fault lines Franco in New Zealand Australia. There's a Senator in Australia named Fraser ending who's under fire after blaming the New Zealand attack on Muslim immigration is a far, right? Politician is refused to back down refused to apologize for the statement in which he said, quote, the real cause of bloodshed on New Zealand. Streets today is the immigration program which allowed Muslim fanatics to migrate to New Zealand in the first place on quote, his comments may be a bit extreme. But how much does he represent a view among Australians is he saying something that some folks are thinking, but just don't say out loud. I mean, I don't think I can say specifically about how much his feelings represent those in Australia specifically, but there is no question that that this these feelings are something that are spreading across the globe in the United States in Europe. The prime minister talked about some of the anger against Muslims and other, you know, the nationalism that is spreading across the global continent. What I find interesting as Michael says how different it is there to the United States. There's certainly seems to be an effort to take steps in that part of the world well here in on our side. Of the globe. It is so difficult to make any move whatsoever. I think it was six days before they're passing laws to enact gun control. Here. We couldn't do it after sandy hook. We couldn't do it after park land. I mean, there's so many different examples, and we still seem to be at a stalemate. It is worth noting Courtney that the backlash to the statement was basically instantaneous a seventeen year old named William Connelly upon hearing this cracked and egg on Senator endings head at a protest rally. He was immediately smacked and then pinned to the ground by a group of endings, far, right? Supporters one of whom later referred to the Christ Church shooting as karma. So feels like there's the Connally was brought in by the police use later released, but there's been quite a bit of cultural and political fallout from this kind of exposed some things that I think some folks would rather not have to talk about Connelly who's now being referred to as eg boy and has sort of become a bit of a cult hero. And I have to say I watched the video of this. Opening and I was struck by how calm he stayed. He held a can of cell phone up and took video of himself doing it and Saint perfectly call them the whole time. I I recommend that that the listeners Google it and look at the video, but I was candidly, I was struck. He was a seventeen year old kid who did this. And but the Australian Senator spun around and punched him and then kept going after him, which I mean, it candidly that surprise me. I mean, I think the thing that's really struck me about this everything that's happened since this horrible massacre in New Zealand in Christchurch last week is that is how it stands in such stark contrast to how this is handled in the United States. You know, Michael and Franco both mentioned there's no NRA there. It's a smaller country. But what I was particularly struck by the prime minister was the confidence with which she made these comments. She said we will now banned these weapons New Zealand, maybe a small country, but it has a very low percentage of residents who registered their guns who registered their weapons the estimates. Are it's less. Than five percent or actually registered. So the idea that she feels that through buyback programs and whatnot that she can actually take care of this problem that she has that confidence. It just shows a level of leadership that I think has been has been very impressive. But from people around the world, let's talk Brexit. It has been delayed. I'm sorry my line. No. I did. I hear you grown. Just now if he didn't I did know. No. I did. Well, I'm sorry, but we have to because it's been delayed. We don't know for. How would you know? But for how long really has it been delayed. Remember in two thousand sixteen the UK voted to leave the European Union. And last night the EU agreed to extend next week's deadline a week from today was supposed to be the day that Britain would split from the EU. This issue is paralyzed the country ever since millions of people still just don't know if this divorce ends in a deal or with Britain storming out of the house with the kids screaming, Michael Goldfarb. What is your sense of what this delay does for the Brexit process now? Well, the the general spin down from last night's meeting in Brussels Theresa May having had a very rugged week in parliament flew over to Brussels to lay out her plan. One more time nothing new nothing new, and you know, it is really remarkable Joshua that you know. Here's the prime minister of Great Britain. She's overseas business in in what they still call. The mother of all parliaments, it's the world's fifth or sixth largest economy, depending on how you measure. And it's total anarchy. There is no leadership. There's nothing the political classes, totally empty and bereft. She goes over there. They presents her usual. Whatever I was gonna say a bad word. I won't take you yourself censoring. Thank you. Well, it's it's an it's an anglicism for testicles. And I think a lot of listeners on what word I'm using. And you know, it's like basically after speaking for ninety minutes, she was invited to leave the room and the heads of government of the twenty-seven other members of the European Union hashed it out for her. She hasn't asked for an extension. They said we'll give you an extension you need. At least this much time. We understand till April twelfth if you haven't got your deal through then you have you know, then it's a crash out. If you do get your deal through then through through parliament, you have six weeks to the end of may. And then Angela Merkel added, but you know, if you really want to just rescind article fifty which is the notice you send to the EU to say, we are withdrawing we as a nation of withdrawing from the European Union. You can have a year. It's okay. We don't mind they took over essentially. And so now here we are. And we have a new crash. I shout date which is April twelfth. Thank you very much to the other twenty-seven leaders. And meanwhile, as I speak to there is a petition at the government has a website, we can set up a petition in which as I speak to you more than three million people have now asked the government to rescind article fifty and think it over again, they have no plan the withdrawal agreement which is all it is just as these are the terms under which we withdraw. It isn't a new free trade deal with Britain's largest market rashes the other twenty-seven countries on the other side of the channel is is has not even been negotiated yet. So the there's a possibility of reset I said when this happened two and a half years ago that it's an e you negotiation it'll go pass the deadline. It's gonna go pass the deadline at least two or three weeks. The problem is and I say this to everybody listening to America if you live here, and I now hold dual citizenship. It is. A nightmare. Because you always assume even if you have a crazy president that at least the rest of the government is going to function nothing is functioning at a governmental level here. And it's a very strange sensation to live through this kind of you know, anarchy in the air around you. Yeah. And it is worth noting Franko speaking of presidents and his family's Donald Trump junior wrote an opinion piece for a big newspaper in the UK saying essentially, you should have listened to my dad. Yes, it was very it was very interesting. It was very unclear what? Specifically, the advice that Don jR, was saying that President Trump I gave to may. But certainly, you know, it's fascinating watching how the Trump told him his son has kind of aligned Trump's kind of campaign in and kind of drive into world politics and kind of aligned with the Brexit movement and the fight again. The establishment an efforts to silence the voices of of those whose need to be heard. And you know, I think I think the the the administration, particularly Don, jR, is going to continue to be heard on this much more to discuss as we continue the Friday news roundup with Franko or Dona of McClatchy Courtney QB of NBC news and Michael Goldfarb. The host of first rough draft of history prime minister may repeat at her belief that this deal is the best way forward. She also after saying that got a little pushback from her predecessor, Tony Blair. We'll tell you what she said. And what he said, and we'll get some more of what you have to say sticklers. What's unique about the human experience? And what we all have in common. I'm guy Roz every week on Ted radio hour, we go on a journey to the big ideas, emotions and discoveries that fill all of us with wonder find it on NPR one or wherever you get your podcasts. Back now to the Friday news roundup with Franco Donas, Courtney QB, and Michael Goldfarb, let's wrap up with Brexit. And then keep moving on Wednesday Prime Minister Theresa May repeated her belief that her deal was the best way forward and she berated members of parliament who spent months attacking her plan MRs may made this direct appeal to her country. Listen, you the public have had enough you'll Todd of the infighting you'll Todd of the political games and the arcane procedural rows. Todd then NP's talking about nothing else. But Brexit, you won't this stage of the Brexit process to be over and done with. I agree. I'm on your. Aside, then former British Prime Minister, Tony Blair leapt to the defence of those lawmakers Blair thinks Brexit would be a disaster for the UK. He said parliament was doing its job and said Theresa May's deal is lousy and needs to be rejected Theresa May's saying to the British people if you back my deal, all is Brexit. A thing would go away. We'd have closure of the argument. We know we'll say through to a nice few isn't right. It's not what would happen her deal resolves nothing. And what the NPR doing is actually what they should do that looking at the detail, and they say northern islands of mess and the future relationships have mystery. And why are we going to push the country down this pop. It's not in the country's interests coordinate. QB? I wonder what we expect to happen between now and this new deadline. I mean, you know, parliament is kind of in uncharted territory. What's next? So I mean, one of the things I think a lot of people including it sounds like former prime minister player are looking for is. For Theresa to for Theresa May who in her defense. She she inherited a really tough situation here. Right. And when she came in on this, but they're looking for her to show, some kind of leadership to actually come to some sort of a deal that people can agree to, you know, I think that's why the criticism of her in the past week or so has really reached higher levels is that people are really looking to her for leadership, and she makes this speech, he addresses the country on Wednesday and says, no, I'm frustrated like you are I want an end to this. But without really offering any kind of solution to the problems one more story out of Europe it caught our attention, and it has to do with the CEO of Volkswagen. Herbert dece? He's under scrutiny for some language. He used during a management meeting. According to a person who says they were present at that meeting. Dece said at some point and say in German, Abe, it mocked fry. Or prophets will set you free. Those of you who know your holocaust. History. Probably immediately thought of the phrase are bite mocked fry work will set you free. Those were the words that were inscribed over the gates at the entrance to Auschwitz, Michael Goldfarb. What? Boy, you know. I mean is this kind of a piece with what Herbert visas reputation is. I'm not sure how to contextualized this in terms of Volkswagen. This comes out of left field. It comes comes out of left field comes out of. I don't know. It comes out of a kind of. I think you know, I'm a I'm not going to give the guy the guy that benefit of the doubt. Okay. And say that he was making a kind of joke that no CEO of a major International Automobile manufacturer or any major international concern should ever make in public. Yes. Our bike month. Fry I think probably everybody listening to this program seen a photo of the gates to. How Schwartz has knows what it means. And may have in other context said the, you know, made a joke out of, you know, dropping the are by and just thinking mocked the fry. Okay. But it is it is also something that don't think if these people media-training anymore, but I also think that it has to do with the fact that the further away from the horror of the holocaust. We get the this kind of. I dunno mundane a fine of the horror. I've just joined a word they're making it ordinary. So that people to joke he was wrong. And he's been excoriated for it. And. I think that's where I'd like to leave it Franko. I just like to build on what Michael said, I mean, not only is this kind of thing that you would not expect any CEO. This is not the kind of thing you want from the CEO of Volkswagen specifically considering the history that Volkswagen has it was founded in nineteen thirty seven under Hitler's rule. This is very very sensitive. They have had to have special memorial events to provide support for people who were hurt who are part of Volkswagen's early history. They used to use slave labor from concentration camps. This is extremely extremely delicate. This is fire. Let's move to Africa where cyclone isci powerful. Tropical storm is devastated. Parts of Mozambique's Imbaba way and Malawi hundreds of people have been killed an estimated fifteen thousand still need rescue in Malawi alone. The UN says. Has eighty thousand people have been reported displaced Jamie looser, who's the emergency operations manager for the Red Cross has called this. The worst humanitarian crisis in Mozambique's history. We will continue to follow this story. And we'll bring this back to you on the round up as the relief effort continues. Let's shift gears to Brazil, whose president was in Washington this week Giro Bolsonaro praised President Trump and call the US and Brazil in his words, the two most promising democracies in the western hemisphere. May I say that Brazil and the United States stand side by side in their efforts to ensure liberties and respect to traditional family lifestyles respect to God, our creator like he's the gender ideology, politically correct added to its end against fake news. That was Brazilian president scenario speaking through an interpreter worth noting that President Trump and smiled and told reporters he was very proud to hear Bolsonaro use the term fake news. Franko were done. Yes. Bolsonaro has been furred to as the Trump of the tropics. Tell us why. Yeah, he has been and he hasn't shied away from that Bolsonaro has made no secret of his affinity for Trump. He copied if I could use that word many of the phrases that President Trump used in his own two thousand sixteen campaign. Everybody remembers America first Bolsonaro used Brazil, first Bolsonaro and his team particularly his son seen as kind of a disciple of Stephen Bannon. They actually had Stephen Bannon. The former chief advisor campaign adviser for President Trump over to the embassy for a special dinner, and they see themselves as kind of an extension of the movement that Trump and ban and kind of pushed in the fight against globalization. We were just talking about Brexit. These are very similar similar issues. N. And frankly, these are two this is a dramatic turn of events in in the hemisphere. Brazil and United States to the biggest the biggest economic powers in the United States for over a decade. They had been at odd ends there'd been very sensitive relationship for those two countries. Now to be kind of aligned is really is really interesting and also part of Balsam hours appeal was some of his more conservative social views at least among his political supporters. You heard him mention specifically respect traditional family lifestyles respect to God against the gender ideology and politically correct attitudes. So that was a shift as well. No, absolutely. I mean, he he has not hesitated at all at like Trump. He is considered a disruptor who has raised a lot of questions about human rights of gay rights. He has really he has really shocked the. Tire hemisphere in gotten the attention of everybody. And it will be fascinating to see where this goes because as you pointed out Trump is a huge fan of Bolsonaro. He's very flattered of these comments of Trump's in the tropics that use of fake news. And we could see a lot of talk about a potential free trade agreement in the future. Courtney President Trump also suggested that he might make Brazil a NATO ally during this visit I don't think he has the power to do that first of all, but why even say it? Yeah. I mean, he he he I he said he might make them a major non-nato ally, which would give the country some preferential treatment specifically when it comes to foreign military sales and some technology purchases and transfers, but I think he even after he said, it realized that what he was saying was not really possible that he didn't have that thority. When I first heard it, I thought well, the president has a fundamental misunderstanding of what NATO is because it's the North Atlantic Treaty organization. It's it's it's a it's a grouping of European countries that. That based on its charter nineteen forty-nine which I went back and looked at after he said this because I thought well, maybe they can invite countries from South America around the world. Article ten of the of the the the treaty the Washington treaty actually says it it's for European countries. So every member would actually have to amend article ten and then agree to allow Brazil in which given the the president Bolsonaro 's anti-democratic comments in his attacks and democratic institutions that doesn't seem plausible that that would happen. What I what I found particularly interesting about that entire press conference in all the coverage about that. Was it really reinforced the premium that President Trump puts on personal relationships, and how flattery really goes such a long way in opening doors with President Trump and how president Boston really has learned how to do that and has mastered it with President Trump one more story we wanted to talk about. And usually the story that we leave is the kicker is just a few seconds the show, but we know that there are quite a few of you who want to talk about this. Especially those of you who are parents, this might sound familiar. Make wish of coast pepper his little coin. I wish I wish I wish don't tell us. What you're wishing for. Okay. Very good clan eastern. We always come true. Yes. Good. That's prepa pig. Very popular with the preschoolers. But this week. She drew the ire of a group of grownups the London fire brigade. It tweeted an accusation against the children's show of using sexist language in an episode called the fire engine. Now, the show reportedly used the word firemen instead of firefighter and that set off a firestorm on Twitter. Some parents came to peppis defense, they pointed out that the show's language may be out dated. But the Pepe stories have included depictions of female firefighters, including peppis own mummy pig Franko, and Courtney I understand you have children who watch Pepe pig. I am very up on pop culture. But preschoolers are not my demographic. So you're going to have to help me with this Franko. First of all is this. Why is Pepe pig? A thing you're asking me to get into the mind. My. Four year old and seven year old kid, and I'm not sure that I can do it on this one. But I will say that the accents are so cute. And they're so adorable and pigs liked to jump around in mud. I mean, how how is that not appealing in fun, and frankly for my family, it's it's there's a lot of parallels. Peppis the older girl the younger, Boy, George it's just kind of perfect for my children because I have the same demographics. We should know. By the way, this is a British animated series that airs here in the US on Nick junior and on other networks around the world, Courtney you have some different feelings about pep pay has twin for year old boys who because of Pepe pig. You say tomato instead of tomato. They cannot pass up a muddy puddle as they call them because Pepe love and her and her brother a little brother loved to jump in muddy puddles and grandfather. And her grandfather, I can literally blame Pepe pig for some of my children. Behavior because they watch it so often I fall asleep at night with the theme song in my head. Yeah. I mean, I I found this whole thing fascinating. Because this this Twitter fight, you know, well, girls can be firefighters. We don't call them firemen and everything I mean, my children have picked up tons of bad behavior from Pepe. And I think the reason it really resonates with little kids is it's very simply drawn. They use a these very simple language, and the themes are very simple everything about it is perfect for a four year old. And it's perfect to drive a parent. We've only got a few seconds left. But is this a British controversy? You wanna stay out of in Orlando. Well, listen, I just wanted to say that my kid was so precocious she couldn't be bothered with Pepe and she has a natural British accent just thirteen last night. I took her to see follies at the national theatre, and she was really engaged with all the discussion of divorce. She's very precocious. She's way past Pepe pay. Michael Goldfarb, hosted the podcast first rough draft of history. Michael, thanks for spending the hour with us pleasure. Franko Donas White House correspondent for McClatchy. Thanks franko. Thanks for having me, an NBC national security and military reporter, Courtney QB Courtney. Thanks very much. Hank stash won a senior team is Lindsay foster Thomas Daniel night and the niece couture. This episode was edited by Miranda full more to learn more about them and the rest of our team. Visit the one eight dot org slash staff. Remember to send us you'll reviews of us. How many stars out of five and why eight five five two three six one eight one eight this. Program comes to you from W AMU part of American University. In Washington distributed by NPR until we meet again, I'm Joshua Johnson. Thank you so much for watching and enjoy your weekend. This is one A. Support for NPR and the following message. Come from the seventh annual charm city bluegrass festival with the bridge deer tick steep canyon, Rangers and the Jeff Austin band, April twenty six and twenty seventh at Baltimore's druid Hill Park tickets at charm city, bluegrass dot com.

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The Friday News Roundup for July 5, 2019

1A

1:32:11 hr | 2 years ago

The Friday News Roundup for July 5, 2019

"Support for this podcast and the following message come from google from connecticut california from mississippi tim minnesota millions of businesses are using google tools to grow online learn how google is supporting businesses in your state at google dot com slash economic impact this is what i i'm todd's infra joshua johnson in washington joshua will be back with you on one day is a holiday week in the united states but still lots of news to talk about justin amash says audio's his republican party the printer start rolling on the new census forms with only one question missing a certain flag falls flat for nike in the car rolled loses a legend with us to catch up on all the week's news helpless digest the biggest stories those and more susan glasser staff writer for the new yorker and the global affairs analyst for cnn susan great have you here thanks so much for being josh kraushaar is also here he's political editor at national journal josh welcome back great to be here todd anita kumar is here white house correspondent in associate editor at politico frequent guest on the roundup anita welcome back thank gang's it's all here in the studio it's great to have you all i wanna start with immigration there were a lot of news on many fronts it seems like every week there's a lot of news on several fronts with immigration in this country let's start down at the border 'em propublica reported ported a secret facebook group for customs and border patrol agents this week it's called i'm ten fifteen now ten fifteen is agent code for alien in custody that's a border patrol agents call an alien in custody a ten fifteen in this group is been around has around ninety five hundred members who shared photo shopped images of people like congresswoman alexandria casio cortez members also called latino lawmakers who would soon visit detention facilities hose and scum buckets posts showed indifference to the death of one detained migrant and the sheep and the cb p has announced that it would open an investigation into this facebook group susan what do we know exactly about this facebook group what exactly the languages being trafficked on it and how many border agents are actually part of it well i think you're you're introduction suggested the scale and scope of this which is enormous if you think about how many people have signed up as members and therefore exposed used to this kind of language what struck me in the news accounts of this the the existence of this face booker said it was known to the leadership for quite some time this is not something that is a brand new offense but in fact a problem problem that has been known about for a long time an i think at the fear right and the reason that's resonating so much with people is the question of is this part of a broader culture of lack of accountability inside the agency right there's always going to be examples of a regrettable speech the question is a what if anything is done about it so number one as you pointed out ninety five hundred members you're talking about a large large number of people exposed to this number two a what are the procedures if any and what is it tell you about the leadership of this remember we're in a moment right now where president trump has made immigration almost the singular focus of his domestic policy agenda at this moment in u s and yet there's been a series of leadership a turnovers a a lack of any confirmed existing leadership at the major agencies inside dhs dhs itself that are responsible for overseeing the so when an offense like the facebook group comes out who's really in charge jerry brown has posted this on facebook i wish i could be confident as that the cbp management will do anything i am not confident of that brandon judd is the president of the national border patrol council that's the labor union represents you us border patrol staff in agents the people who are at question here on this facebook group use on morning edition where he asked the public not paint all of the border patrol with the same brush those comments at those individuals state it they're absolutely solutely one hundred percent inappropriate but to paint v entire border patrol with the same brush 'em due to what three individuals did is absolutely irresponsible nine thousand five hundred people part of this facebook page it was three people at the identified in those three people must be held accountable for what they did anita kumar brandon judd of the border patrol union says a couple of bad apples that's the bottom line here this is not systemic this is not border patrol wide a couple of bad apples there's an investigation now what exactly does that investigation into well i mean he's right about there's a few people but have the scope of thousands of people being members i think is something that they're gonna have to look at well we don't know exactly what they're going to do what they are going to look at it and we are gonna probably hear something since it's been such a public issue i mean i think the the situation is a susan said is that president trump has has with all these immigration related agencies and even the department of homeland security not had a permanent permanent people in charge now the president likes to have people that are temporary people that definitely are not confirmed impart because he feels like he has more power and authority over them but the problem is there is no sort of accountability you know people will say this is the trump administration but this is gone back several years and it's thousands of people so and it's career people too so it's not it's clearly not a trump thing but people will play in it as it goes it goes further to be idea this theme that we've seen more and more of which is the dehumanizing of people who come across the border whether that's for politics and political parties americans themselves or in a government agency whether it's three people over three thousand people how those people those humans who come across the border are viewed by those who were apprehending him we got this from beth on facebook i keep hearing him say things like action will be taken but i've never once heard those who posted disgusting and offensive content will be fired a josh immigration is hyper polarized right now that's not a surprise we talk about it all the time on this show and we should how does this informed the political debate around the border around detention which we're gonna talk about the culture starts at the top and i don't think it's a coincidence at the president used is very dehumanizing rhetoric news is a very polarizing rhetoric when talking about migrants when talking about illegal immigrants and you look at the this facebook book page and you have have even a few people without any criticism internally a joking about the death of migrants in the republican party was once known for compassionate conservatism and there's a notable lack of compassion a when you hear rhetoric from trump's republican party these days the politics on immigration those very complicated because you have polarization on both sides you you have a republican party that is focused on border security that molins money for a wall that really wants to take a tough stance on illegal immigration and then you have a descendant progressive wing of the democratic party that wants to you know decriminalize illegal immigration wants to a you know a lot of republicans call it open borders and there's not a lot of middle ground on immigration you could see why when you have an issue that's about values and not about self interest that both parties are so far apart and how they view the same situation well here's another thing that will inform this very debate and lawmakers visited the border a lot of what propublica there reported on this facebook group within anticipation of lawmakers visiting alexandria casio cortez was one of the lawmakers who did is it she immediately took to twitter after her tour of detention facilities at the border to say the she felt unsafe during that visit she also said she saw migrants drinking from toilets in detention the cb p has flatly denied that accusation but susan what do we know about the facilities the lawmakers toured these questions come up week after week about exactly how migrants they're being treated we see a lot of downplaying by the by border patrol and customs lot of downplaying by the administration but it seems like witness after witness who goes there reports something very different well that's right a you know this a facility in florida florida that the homestead facility i believe a you know is one that a number of democratic members of congress have gone to they come out with horrifying reports they've talked about people who were behind a glass walls that were holding up notes begging for help there was one account that i found sort of a chilling and kind of notable of a group of children who were encountered by be members of congress who said how could we help you a an a you know you're certainly seeing enormous overcrowding crowding you're seeing reports of a grownup an children who are starving who are very hungry a lack of access to sanitary facilities a just an extraordinary things if this was being written about in any other country what would be the take way of it and so again but just to go to the politics 'cause i think that's very important why are we talking about this so much right now that is what president trump by design a from the beginning he has a perception that he's winning on this issue even have us talking about it even have a democrats criticizing him he believes that benefit him a certainly the turn to the left in response to a largely one could argue a kind of a crisis of the administration's own making has been something that republicans have welcomed when you saw in the democratic debates over two nights earlier a late last month you saw democrats essentially saying a we would give healthcare we will give access to illegal immigrants we wouldn't punish them a ticket to republicans that embroider and adds to the narrative of democrats is being in charge of a in being in favor of open borders likely be a campaign ad windows hand just no question number one it will be a campaign i but number two again i'm struck by the fact that this is a crisis of are dysfunctional politically making remembered at the big picture here with that immigration and illegal immigration was going down a in the aftermath of the two thousand eight financial crisis a when donald trump came to office talking about immigration there wasn't a crisis a through a series of a a politically confrontations including most recently a funding crisis that was the stated argument remember remember it's only been a couple of weeks but that was the argument about why so many children were being held in such appalling conditions in texas was well be a appropriation hasn't come through a to take care of these children in the money came throwing will see that actually makes a difference it's good to talk about the politics of this after a short break i wanna get back to conditions in those detention facilities there were more news this week before we take a quick break a susan mentioned politics and needed democrats control the house they have the power to really change any of this besides rhetorically no they don't because obviously the republicans control the senate and even when both party when one party controls both chambers they cannot solve the immigration problem and they haven't through a the trump administration the obama administration the bush administration it is something that's very difficult and with with divided government it's just not gonna happen will talk more about detention at the border after this short break it's the friday news roundup on one day were wrapping up the week with susan glasser staff writer at the new yorker anita kumar white house correspondent an associate editor at politico end josh kraushaar politically editor at national journal i'm todd's will look you're listening to one eight w m u and npr support for this podcast and the following message come from google veteran mitch founded skinny stakes maple syrup and he's showing that small businesses can do big things mitchell started making syrup from a few trees in his wisconsin backyard and now connecting with customers worldwide with help from google tools skinny stakes is one of millions of small businesses using google to grow learn how google is helping businesses in your state at google dot com slash economic impact no matter what you've got planned you need a song of the summer this week on npr's pop culture happy hour we are rounding up experts from npr music we will play a ton of songs to lift your spirits and he's might even find your next favorite artist that's npr's pop culture happy hour listen subscribe now it's one eight it's the friday news roundup i'm todd's willik there was some more good news on the economy this morning as usa employers added two hundred and twenty four thousand jobs that's well above the pace that a lot of forecasters had been expecting the monthly snapshot for june from the labor department showed unemployment rising slightly to three point seven percent let's press on with the rest of the news on the news roundup a reminder are guest this week susan glasser staff writer at the new yorker global affairs analyst list cnn just cross our politically editor at national journal politicos white house correspondent anita kumar is here as well i wanna return to detention at the southern border of the united states because they were more data actual data this week from the usa government department of homeland security's office of inspector general issued a report on tuesday urging immediate action to address overcrowding in squalid conditions in detention facilities at the border this report finds that more than thirty percent of children are being held longer than seventy two hours allowed under the floor is agreement that sets that sets the standard for how we treat minors in custody at the border children also had no access to clothing changes or showers even though they may be detained up to two weeks there the facilities did not offer hot meals there were many many other findings as well detainees begging to be released one inspectors visited them adult detainees with no place to polite down in detention having to stand up and crowded sells a new place to lie down on the floor in other cases if they could lie down on the floor no beds concrete floors where detainees in the united states had asleep susan glasser these findings they don't come from politicians they don't come from partitions they don't confirm warrior's any immigration fight they come from the inspector general well that's right this is our own government a you know attempting to hold itself accountable an you know you mentioned those findings i think there's certain numbness that comes from having so many outrageous but i'm haunted by these images of these a detention facilities that they released along with this investigation which which document in a powerful way exactly what those words are telling us for example there is a photograph that was released it shows a portrait of a cell so overcrowded and a group of men a standing in front of you realize they can't sit down it looks like a subway rider lutely there's too many people there they can't sleep this is what is the description of every human rights nightmare in what were you thinking of in other countries around the world so how did this happen in the united states in twenty nine teen who is accountable for it and what is gonna happen as a result of this if we weren't so so enmeshed in a partisan end divided situation this would be the only story that we would be talking we got this tweet from jcb when people realize the conditions in detention facilities mirror those in our own prisons this is not a new development but a business plan josh to to to the point why isn't there universal outrage to this there's there's outrage and some corners of politics of course there's outrage on social media outrage from some politicians why isn't there universal outrage were talking about children in an in adults in overcrowded conditions you can't sit down the sad reality is that were so tribal were so partisan that even outrageous conditions at these at these camps are responding to win along partisan lines but the reality is that the the the the conditions in in in in these camps and he's holding facilities is largely out of bureaucratic morass you have a you have an infrastructure that hasn't kept up with if the level of migration you have eight hundred thousand asylum cases that are pending it takes an average of seven hundred days to process each case and you had a a a pickup in the level of migration in the last year or two and you also have the rules in these facilities you can only hold you're only supposed to be able to hold the migrants were seventy two hours many of them have been there for over a month so some of this you know they're they're certainly partisan reasons fervor people take the positions they do but some of this is just the sheer slowness of of of the bureaucracy i need it seems like there's two things going on here when you look at this there is in overcrowding crisis at the border joshes right there are there are people coming over the border in numbers the system cannot handle the overcrowding alongside that something we talked about before the break the dehumanization of people who come into this country seems like at least tacitly the policy from the top of the government of this country is the dehumanization dehumanisation of these people those two things go alongside one another don't they yes i mean we are hearing is josh mentioned that rhetoric that we've been hearing for the last couple of years but let let me tell you what republicans inter at least republicans close to the to the president's say about this they say will see we told you that there was a crisis there is a crisis at the southern border and this is the this is the result of that so if you had listened to us in general we had said we wouldn't be in this situation now obviously that's not the case this has been going on while there are they have not come up with solutions to solve all these problems but that is what's going on is it has become so black and white when it's really not right there's there's you didn't solve it here's here's what's happened yeah i i just i think it's important to note that some of this actually is by design of administration okay so this is not just like oh my goodness all these people came in we simply were overwhelmed okay so there's a calculated a not just politically but policy decision and series of decisions by the trump white house to escalate the conflict in hope in some ways of producing exactly the political response that we're seeing right now for example the president has consistently an and truthfully said that the policy of family separation was one that originated in nearby minutes that is not correct why are they saying that well first administration lied and said there was no such policy last year then they said okay well were ending it then they said well where reconsidering starting at an by the way it was started by the obama administration will be answer is is that there is a policy decision to a aggressively ratchet up a every kind of enforcement in action possible while at the same time there were made these resource constraints and too many people in the facility so if you change thee a policy metric right you say were going to hold more people for a longer time because we're gonna be getting tough at the same time you don't have more resources into that's when you actually are producing more overcrowding and more of these a human rights filing for we move on from immigration because there is so much news this week like every week i wanna hit on one more story briefly needed department of homeland security said notices is immigrants this week ordering them to pay fines for nearly half a million dollars in some cases were failing to follow deportation orders that's controversial is it legal what's the policy yeah apparently it is but it's not you it's a very rare thing that's done and obviously these people cannot pay these amounts these exorbitant amount of money this is another tactic by the trump white house to basically say a you know basically looking back president trump you've seen seen all these changes are dhs and all these agencies he is incredibly frustrated but he has not been able to solve the crisis or at least do what he said he would do clearly not solving their prices but just take some of these actions he said he what he said he would do that in twenty sixteen and they're looking at everything possible now to try to get tough on immigration and this is just another way they kind of do that let's take it back to washington dc we are after all on the tail end of a holiday it's sort of a clause i holiday this friday friday a lot of people probably you're taking the four day week there were quite a few departures from tradition in the fourth of july celebrations in washington dc user two hundred and forty third birthday president trump had his controversial salute to america kind of tacked onto the public fireworks display on the national mall roped off section for the president's friends in donors some military hardware on display some tanks and flyovers with military jets so josh in the end how did it go down there a lot of consternation ahead of time well i i think this was a classic trump in that this administration tried to project chaos you had had read of worry that this speech was going to be all about trump and it wouldn't honor the principles of our country in the founding of our country you know in reality if you look at the text of of the president's speech last night it's a patriotic speech that any any precedent could have given a he he referenced the heroism of civil rights activists suffragettes it was and i ordered a tribute to the military so look at some the tactics some of the practices of having a cordoned off section to donors of having tanks on on the national mall i think there were just two of them in the end you know that that was a little bit abnormal but in the grand scheme of things i think a lot of opposition worked itself up on something that will forget about it in a couple of days just maybe as the president wanted maybe all by his design wha amuse ellie you spoke the protesters and attendees here in washington dc down in the mall including this woman who just became a citizen along with her son diminishing my action we got this email from jill in alabama if the president wants to showcase appropriate weapons of destruction he should have displayed played muskets end cannons spoken about america's determination just throw off the yoga teacher any america works best when were all working together an anita jill's critique there a lot of people had which is the president's been having event if he wants to it seemed like his tactics were designed to divide at least at first maybe in the end if you read the speech you would have said well like i said that's okay nobody expected it from him 'em people some people forget about the weapons in the flyover she said this is just supposed to bring everybody together there shouldn't be this etched around the four well by the mere fact that he put you're right the speech in in patriotic speech but the fact that he put himself in there right it was designed to put himself in there he was the center of attention he gave the speech he made the fireworks longer he he brought the weapons out there you know so it was all about him when when other presidents have done that so that's the number one thing he did want it about him this this is a president who who wanted it to be about him he's running for reelection he wants to be out there but you're exactly right if he didn't want to divide he knows how divided this country is he wouldn't have done that in the first place how much do we know about the cost in the final analysis or do we we we don't yet a we have seen different numbers but there's all sorts of contradictions on what's gonna what's gonna be the tab for this controversial fourth of july here in washington dc a little bit of controversy around certain republican meanwhile sorry sorry former republican no longer a republican his name is justin amash he is he's from michigan from rural michigan as he made headlines oh a couple of months ago maybe six weeks ago he became the only republican in congress to support bringing impeachment proceedings seatings against president trump after he read the muller report well justin amash is now officially quit the republican party he made that announcement on independence day maybe his own independence day get it drawing higher from the president who tweeted told his followers the justin amash is quote a total loser josh you follow republicans closely why is justin amash leading the party why not stay in the fold in fight it out well one major reason is that he would likely have lost eight republican primary because the new rule of of republican politics is if you speak critically of president trump you're support will will diminish overnight we we we saw that with mark sanford a congressman from south carolina who lost a primary to a more pro trump a challenger injured and we saw that with jeff flake bob corker in in the last election a he was only pulling it seventeen percent in the republican primary and according to a recent poll a so this is a partly in in in in reality to the politicals a fundamental in his district but you know this is someone who is always a libertarian republican he's someone who stood by his principles no matter how unpopular they were in at one point in time he was the person viewed as sort of a right wing extremist he was a vote voted against giving federal workers back pay after the shutdown he he with someone who didn't wanna support government assistance to the flint residents after the water crisis because he doesn't believe in government spending a local projects you're saying is he's not leading to become a democrat he's not gonna be supported by the democrats are either so this is a guy who stands by his principles no matter the consequences in this case he was willing to speak out against trump will willing to support impeachment hearings and i i don't know if he has a career in the republican party or or and end all mixture road to republican party headquarters these days is littered with they politically carcasses of people who did not get behind president trump and you looked at some of the names jeff flake bob corker sanford of south carolina justin amash still survives because he's still a member of congress but he might be the next one will let's stay in congress for a couple of minutes because there is a long battle on the house side at least among the democratic majority to get their hands on those tax returns that belong to president trump took a significant step forward this week here's another congressman this is dale kilty he's a democratic member of the house ways and means committee he's on cnn talking about why his party is now suing t i r s in the treasury department to get those tax returns were not gonna let this go i think the chairman has handled the way that he should we are now in court in it's going to be up to the courts of the terminal quickly they move i hope they move with some hayes because this is a serious question anita how did we get here well there are a lot of people saying democrats saying that the chairman didn't go fast enough right were already in july if he had started this process earlier then perhaps they would have a chance of getting the tax return sooner if they if they win a there a lot of people that are worried that the tax returns if they get them won't come nearly fast enough may not even come before before the president faces this is reelection twenty twenty so were at a point where as you know the trump administration various ways has said it is not gonna cooperate with house democrats and so this is one of those times where the the house democrats have gone to court there's actually gonna be a lot of those times but there is a big divide in the democratic party about whether they should have moved faster well here's another one of those times when they're going to court the trump administration announced earlier in the week they would not press ahead with plans to add a citizenship question to the twenty twenty census that was after the supreme court rejected the white house his bid to include that question but then the president tweeted something very different he said it's so important for our country that the very simple and basic are you a citizen of the united states question be allowed to be asked in the twenty twenty census department of commerce in the department of justice are working very hard on this even on the fourth of july end quote susan glasser the government said were not going to do this the supreme court said you can't end in a tweet out of the white house seems to have tossed everything into disarray well it's a it's a classic example of a trump era chaos generated by tweet this is a a new factor in american government obviously we've never had the present united states a publicly not only making policy but contradicting his own officials including the commerce secretary himself a who had said that the the census would proceed without the question a an a so it's it's a new dynamic there was a i think something that's destined to go down in the annals a as eighty eight classic of this john row when a government where called to account in an emergency conference call by the maryland judge supervising this case a said essentially i have no idea what's going on i'm trying very hard as i'm sure you understand ascertain what exactly are policy is a there were lots of commentary on twitter saying we are all that government lawyer at this point we none of us know what the policy is a this is needless to say not exit not at all and example of exactly what chief justice john roberts was trying to addressing his a ruling for the majority on the supreme court which is to say where is the lack of where is de deliberative due process where is the administrative decision making that gives us a legitimate rationale for this obviously a tweet is not really a deliberative process in that government lawyer trying to figure out along with everyone else what was going on we got this correction from june who puts me right justin amash is not from rural michigan he's from the grand rapids metro area thank you june i got that wrong were gonna take a short break my guest susan glasser josh kraushaar anita kumar but before we take a quick pause were gonna join those who this week carved out a new path singer patti labelle no really a new path patti labelle now has her very own street in her hometown of philadelphia stretch of broad street that was renamed patti labelle away during the ceremony on tuesday so the next time you're in philly remember wind down the windows and sing a little bit of hayes sister hayes is just so sister flow sister little bit of that believe who when i support for npr and the following message come from rockies rockies rv everyday flat for life on the go stylish versatile fully machine washable and they go with everything from yoga pants to dresses and skirts best of well there's zero breaking period thanks to their woven design seamlessly crafted from recycled water bottles plus rockies always come with free shipping and free returns and exchanges find out why buzzfeed called them there forever shoes at rocky's dot com slash slash one day if you love this show then checkout life kit tools to help you get it together think of it as that friend who always had great advice on everything from how to invest to how great workout subscribed to life kit all guys to episodes on every topic all in one place find it in apple podcasts or at npr dot org slash life kit it's the friday news roundup susan glasser easier josh kraushaar is here anita kumar is here from politico and if you're listening in the car to us right now you're most likely experiencing the influence of a man named lee iacocca he died on tuesdays in his home in california he was ninety four years old i have coco is the face of the detroit auto industry in the postwar era he was a celebrity dirty ceo in this country who first became well known in nineteen sixty four is the man behind the famous ford mustang well after leaving ford iacocca went to chrysler where he helped save that company from bankruptcy in what's remembered as one of the most remarkable turnaround around in business history when the company was struggling he cut his salary to a dollar a year we i cook who is a team player and he became the face of chrysler on tv commercials where he appealed directly to the american driver usually ending with the signature catchphrase you don't agree though the best prices ever made a very fast america as offer at essential price and i'm in the wrong business all one more thing if you can't find a better car fire usa audio industry certainly looks a lot different than when lee iacocca was at the helm and when he took over chrysler knowing his quite taken his places that celebrities ceo in josh you told me in the brakes at lee iacocca once had political aspirations people wanted him to run for president he was sobel of it in the mid to late eighties that there was talk about recruiting him to run for president in in in shades of of donald trump's campaign he ashley was a very successful businessmen at the time they american auto industry is really struggling again against japan when andy reid reinvigorated chrysler he made it a competitor once again and he is beloved in american auto a notice of the very fact those boxy terrible american cars of the seventies were not selling in the quality is awful and lee coca knew they couldn't compete with japanese cars and he helped turn that around well let's move onto another iconic american company making news yet again as they tend to do nike has dropped a pair of kicks that featured the betsy ross flag flag this week that designed detail triggered a huge amount of pushback and after that backlash was the backlash to the backlash 'em susan what is happening here with nike back in the news again why exactly you're people upset on the other side of this issue well you know i mean welcome to the culture war circa twenty nineteen it makes you nostalgic anyway frizzy a the the trade wars of the nineteen eighties which by the way just connect these two conversations you know lee iacocca america andy the struggles of american auto industry in the nineteen eighties were a profound politically influence it seems to me on donald trump and if you notice he's still obsessed with the use of national power in paris in particular in defense of america's auto industry it occupies on outsized ties place in his politically imagination i think because he was so shaped by those fates of the nineteen eighties we still talk about japan and germany as ripping america off an as you know that his big threat that he often deployed against both japan andy european paean union which really means germany is to impose tariffs on their auto industry's biggest a ham that almost synonymous with national power and when he says that it really does feel like the eighties we have clashed with japan on technology for thirty or forty you're right i was just a kid in in in high school that you remember like a very a protection is lawmakers on capitol hill taking sledgehammers the japanese made technology so that was sort of the nineteen eighties version of the politicization of business now here we are flash short in twenty nineteen where you have these politicals fights over a essentially a identity politics history race and culture a being played out in the realm of a business and that i think is what's going on with these at the betsy ross flag on the nike sneakers you have a call and capper nick nfl player complaining about this saying essentially this is a reminder of a time a when slavery was prevalent among the original thirteen states and then as you said there's backlash the backlash so now you have a outrage conservatives a embracing they used this flag and and i have to tell you for me i as i imagine for a lot of people it's just it's just overall a turnoff a at a time of such crisis is really what people wanna be talking about you know i feel like a there's a little bit of days yahu here i mean boy is nike love being at the center of controversy this keeps happening well that's a good point in each time it does it feels less and less like an accident anita i do the show before guested for josh and a couple of times ago there was a nike colin capper nick controversy now i don't take away from calling capper nick sincerity in his politics of course he's sincere but this is corporate america and here we are what do we talking about nike hey there's a lot of companies that would say they don't wanna be involved they would just not even go out there and he leans in yeah they kept clearly decided that controversy is good all publicity is good publicity right so they're out there i mean it must have obviously cost them they produced issue and sent it to senate around the country home maybe the publicity pace so i don't know how it works well they're clearly one of the companies we have today that is not shying away from josh do we need to be a little more media savvy in the next time there's a nike controversy around a pair of shoes or or some kind of culture war flash point i feel like i've been here before i'm starting to feel like a little bit of a tool to nike visit pollute politically lesson to be learned which is that the base matters the average voter rights in if you pulled the country and ask what they thought about the capper nick controversy i would bet that overwhelming numbers of americans would be against nike nike's purposes by trying to inculcate their brand with younger consumers with african american consumers they think this is a a a net asset to them this isn't about what they were trying to be idealistic this is about just pure corporate greed corporated trying to make a buck and they think it's better to play to their base then it is the place to be entire country but regardless of nike's politics and that's their business i think it behooves all of us to remember a what josh says which this is about the bottom line every time you get riled up about one of these controversies on any side of it who are you helping maybe you're helping nike i i don't know something to think about it but i wanna stay in the sports world because it's great american news from over the pond in england let's talk about tennis let's talk about wimbledon let's talk about women's tennis on the grass corey goff is a name that you're gonna be hearing a lot more about she's better noticed cocoa she roared into wimbledon this week in the cocoa trained folks shows no signs of slowing down anytime soon here she is obviously i literally got my dream dre so i'm just super happy i was able to pull it out today she played played amazing animals as just super nice and she's always been nice a couple of times i met her who is cocoa talking about susan glasser who did she beat the chiefs speaking of so reverently there while she's talking about the legendary the one and only venus williams a an you know this seems like a a moment in a way of handing over passing of the torch whatever you will have it between two incredible american a sports figures women's tennis is you know been enriched as as we all know by the the williams sisters a an and here you have this incredible kind of fifteen year old fee nom a tennis especially a women's tennis has long been the province of super talented teenagers a i'm old enough to remember a back in the nineteen eighties were talking about the nineteen eighties in tracy austin i believe with a sixteen year old superstar a winning usa open a say which one of those you know great moments a in women's tennis and it reminds us that a you know there's something to feel good about 'em cocoa defeated mcglynn rebar cova an venus williams you mentioned continue advancing now the williams sisters they changed the face of this game both in america in the world we talk about venus williams her sister serena if you wanna compare the two sisters and even greater champion arguably the greatest athlete in american history we have that fight hard to compare them how important was it do you think 'em for venus williams defeat at wimbledon dictum at the hands of another young black female player another rising fee nom on american seen who i guess you could argue this the the the williams sisters set the table for her i mean she warships them that's who she came up idolizing that's exactly right look sports is is is often a young person's game a an it's been an incredible period of dominance up for not one but two william sister so i think that it's it's a key moment a you know tennis was historically a not as much of a black sport until so the williams sisters a you know of course there was a legendary arthur ash in men's tennis but i think it it just speaks to this being thank goodness at a different era in are sports and in public life let's return to immigration because were getting a lot of a listener in her comments in an people responding to a discussion on that i mentioned at the top of the show how i guess how quickly this debate continues to move in this country in one sense and need a quick leaning in another sense it goes nowhere we talk about comprehensive immigration reform which hasn't had a serious consideration in congress since you could argue two thousand nine the last time a serious effort it reformers on tap democrats who are running for president seemed to be veering pretty far to the left at this point in the primary were pretty clear the president is going to make a huge central theme of his reelection campaign that border those people coming in closing the border the country is full where does all this head well both parties are divided on this issue and that's the problem right as i mentioned earlier even when one party controls both chambers of commerce and even the white house they can't get anything done and the reason is the republican party is divided on how to handle this issue and the democrats are divided so while you hear the president on one hand and you hear the democrats running for president of the other hand let's remember that the democrats that are running don't represent every democrat and and the president doesn't represent every republican the problem is when you sit down and you deal with something so complicated and there's so many different issues on immigration it's not just one piece it's not just the border it's not just asylum there's so many different pieces they'll come up with fifty different answers and they just cannot rectify that they can't come to terms on that so we're gonna hear about this for the next year and a half it this election may be about immigration but they're still really no future here in no immediate future are they gonna solve this problem here's what goes to the division the need is talking about constance emails us trump likes outrageous conditions in which migrants were held migrants were held he actually said and i'm paraphrasing here if they don't like the conditions in detention they should stay home that's how the president answered his administration its treatment of migrants but penny tweets this i'm a democrat but i cannot support open borders we need comprehensive reform we cannot absorb the world's poor in josh a lot of people watch that democratic debate watch democratic hands go up when a reporter asked would you be for decriminalizing criminalizing illegal crossing the border and some hands went up and they said oh republicans are salivating at that response because the average american voter i suppose the average american white voter does not like that yeah this is an issue where neither party is responding to the majority of voters and he irony is that we've had comprehensive immigration reform proposals go through congress had public support behind a lot of the key proposals behind it but couldn't get a pass through through through republican controlled house most recently so so this is this is the state of our politics you have a an energized base on both sides that really control the dialogue and can't obstruct a compromise is a an end of gridlock you you have this this this gridlock which is very real human consequences at the border susan well i think i wanted to point out at your a treat or commenter made a action important point about the administration a looking to achieve in some ways exactly this outrageous a warning to people that was the stated a interest in the original family separation policy by the trump administration the president was a believer any idea that essentially ratcheting up the pressure doing something so outrageous as separate children from their families might be the deterrence it's that they needed in order to shut down this flow of migrants from central america so that would actually the stated a goal in some ways of the family separation policy as far as the democrats go i think josh is making very important point that both parties at this this point are being pulled farther and farther to represent their own base is a you know immigration didn't used to be so hyper charge in recently a fascinating conversation with former very senior official in the bush administration here's a what if president bush george w bush was a supporter of comprehensive immigration reform as where many leading republicans at the time along with democrats what if he had chosen to begin his second term after he was reelected in two thousand four what if you start a two thousand five not with the doomed push a to a reinvent a entitlements for the next century which didn't go anywhere but we comprehensive immigration reform it likely would have passed and we might not be where we are right now and i would also like to say when people say you're pulled further and further thereby you're base to a large extent in politics you're not a victim of you're base you create you're base keep that in mind the next time you see a politician poll one one direction or another by their base well i wanna end quickly on some great america news hopefully coming from france this weekend fief of world cup final is on is on at eleven am eastern u s women are in the mix one of the best team i mean for me the best the best of their i dunno whatever they're very different that's why richard usa feels like our year this just feels like are you happy the girl never lacked super josh is it our year it sure feels like it in the victory over a britain to the one was made sweeter by alex morgan in one of the star players on the soccer team overbill sip of the fee of britain in the control room emotion out of it i wanna say they're playing the netherlands sunday meghan ripping slated to be back she didn't play in game against england she's she's the star player on the uss team but this is gonna be a i think a high point in in in in americans were all rooting for team usa facing off against the netherlands on sunday don't miss it it's gonna be phenomenal making her pino back on the field it's just it just couldn't be more exciting well i wanna thank you all for being here and before we go i wanna send a little bit of condolence out to people who spirits might be a little bit down that's because bourbon distillers had a tough year they're contending with the economic consequences of president's trade war after doing very good business the last few years whiskey exports slowed in twenty eighteen after a trading partners introduced retaliatory tariffs after twenty five percent on america's whiskey well this week a fire at a gym being warehouse in kentucky destroyed about forty five thousand barrels of bourbon word among insiders is the lightning may have been the cause the good news no one was hurt in despite the fire the loss accounted for just one percent of jim beam total inventory there is still plenty of bourbon just go around in america enfor everyone here at the table if that you're saying some people need is looking at me sideways she's a bourbon person i wanna thank you all for being here susan glasser josh kraushaar anita kumar politico thank you all for being here in one of these digital team is catherine thinking gabby healy arlene engineer is jake cherry with technical support from josephine near and i will turn to international news on the friday news roundup right after this support for this podcast and the following message come from the walton family foundation where opportunity takes root more information is available at walton family foundation dot org support for this podcast and the following message come from american jewish world service working together for more than thirty years to build a more just and equitable world learn more at aj ws dot rg this is one eight i'm todd's willik infra joshua johnson in washington a lot has been happening around the world this week protesters smash up the parliament in hong kong in korea president trump crosses a line and they exact rowlett his daughter at the g twenty seems to have crossed another line this time in japan there's change at the top of the european union and the central bank an important developments in libya incident will get to as well joining me international friday news roundup in the studio is ron nixon easy international investigations editor for these associated press and he's author of selling apart hide south africa's global propaganda war ron thank you for being here that you're having me great to have you know maria pot is also here she is director global news coverage at feature story news in the marina great to see you again good to be joining us on the line from the bbc in london is michael goldfarb he's the host of the first round draft of history podcast michael great to have you thanks it's good to be back always good to talk to you a gang i wanna start in hong kong were there were a lot of news some of it a little bit bewildering from protests there had been months of protest it culminated this week with more civil unrest there protesters this week stormed into the legislative assembly chamber we spray cans and metal bars in other weapons it's what might happen next it has a lot of very many people around china around hong kong very nervous nina remind us what is this all about and why has it reached this point where previously peaceful protests at least for the most part seemed to be tipping into violence well i mean this latest round of protests on july first which a foul on the anniversary of the nineteen ninety seven handover father a ton of hong kong to china from britain and it is rudy signified i think the latest test for carry lyme a in bustle chief executive of hong kong on so she jinping in china should also be said the demonstrations shaping up now for this sunday violence violence is expected and significantly these mass demonstrations on sunday happening on the counter loons side of the bay so nuts on hong kong island and not significant because the streets there little more compact a does a the possibility of grace of violence is harder to control a one thing that hasn't been talked about much in the press reports in the media coverage a is to what extent there have been vanik a main non chinese agitators up pushing these protests a over the edge towards sort of uncontrollable violence which of course gives beijing unexcused a crackdown quite heavily police are preparing for these demonstrations on sunday another thing isn't being talked about much is whether whether or not the triads will will show up for these demonstrations on the reports at the giants were in for some private started pushing it and they lost a reminder sean run if you could try odds are well tryouts a criminal gangs you know the the the have a network across china as as well and very active in hong kong so it's certainly a test of the carry lyme i think i did hong kong is soon to turn itself into a self governing democracy is somewhat naive on their idea and the notion that carry lyme but it's within powell to resign or crackdown i mean she ready is a in beijing times the decision for her boss xi jinping to make a you know in terms of what happens on future ron within the protest movement itself it's leaderless which is apparently one of its virtues he doesn't have a charismatic leader a youth movement a youth movement if you will but reports in addition these last couple of weeks that there are divides running through the ranks of the protesters some people supported this raid on the legislative assembly simply a lot of people did not end it may go to the point that nina's raising about potential government agitators in sort of dividing the ranks of give us a sense of where this goes in the next week's irma it's hard to protect predict dick where it goes but i think this is indicative of what happens to social movements because when you first start off everybody is against something but the longer it goes you also start to see these fishers between the groups who have different different objectives different goals different things that they want to accomplish in i think that that's what's happening here because there are people who were peacefully protest in who are against the violence that that's happening because they think it's and it leads to a greater crackdown by they they chinese government in in beijing there are so people who are somewhere in between who understand they anger a that that people have that that smashed up the legislature but but don't necessarily want to a to to do that themselves so i think again you know this is sort of indicative of what happens to social movements i mean you saw this in the arab spring hang up particularly in egypt to where everybody was against something and then as you start to move forward the fishers happened michael goldfarb your in london a if you go back far enough in history and you don't have to go too far back you might lay some of their responsibility for this not at the feet in beijing but at the feet in london in the uk government that made hong kong colony i mean the the antecedents of this conflict go back to where you're sitting well yeah but if i could just chime in on on what ron was just saying it goes but we still this in nineteen sixty eight in america when you see the civil rights movement began to fragment and after kings non violent approach to gaining civil rights for african americans wasn't fast enough for some people it seems to be an inherent quality in youth fled capitalism independence movement but movements against oppression movements wants to guarantee abroad idea democracy you know what's happened here of course is that you know i suppose worry i covered this ren pr back in nineteen ninety seven when we up handover took place in the negotiations since that led up to thirty one china to policies will rule in hong kong's they'd be western style democratic set up here with free markets while oh just over the border in the people's republic if they would have influence and so on i think the the which you'll find out is that these agreement was based on a certain amount of goodwill in good faith of britain at the moment is just in no position internationally to you know put its feet down and then geopolitical sense and say you were not honoring the agreement a vision pain you're you're just not doing it and we have behind us you know an array of western alliance alliances and we will have to me could bring this power to bear its economic power 'em you know hong kong is an economic lee powerful entity in and of itself and it may actually save it mastery save the former mark holiday maxi save the city because you know china at this moment needs to have an in a financial center just off at southern valley that the world trusts and can do business with so i think that's an important thing the problem of course for britain is that you know the foreign secretary jeremy hunt he is one of two people who is in the finals to replace theresa may as prime minister i won't say the name of the other person was like man i i promise you a producer i wouldn't and i you know he he's he can't do anything britain's about to leave you can't even go the european union and say look we need to know forcefully say to presidency that you know they approach you're taking in hong kong at the moment is not a good one and we require it to be a free and independent economic entity he can't do that now so britain is actually in a in a pretty difficult place in hong kong people are in a difficult place if they thought britain would be able to help the mountain well michael let's stay in china because you are in london you are at the bbc right now in the bbc is reporting that china is systematically domestically separating muslim children from their families from their homes and their face while simultaneously building boarding schools to educate and house them or should i say reeducate this appears to be another attempt to suppress a predominantly muslim ethnic group the leaders who we've heard so much about in the far west of china a bring us up to speed on these reports they were hearing michael with this this was actually a student report to see today because the turkish leader a prison erta one is actually in beijing he may he may have flown back to turkey by now and he's been reportedly saying some pretty extraordinary things of you know that you know the leaders aren't being oppressed in this sort of thing because he needs to be a turkey needs to be part of the belt and road initiative it's gonna be a western terminals and so he he's saying the right things while he's on this visit and the bbc has come up with this really shocking report about children being separated from parents i guess autocrats chinese down we have autocrats american style when it comes to separating children i i it's the one report it's possible by the way for reporters to get regular contact with what's happening in schengen province which is where the weavers lives but there does seem to be forcible rape education and you know this isn't a it's very difficult to figure out what's the upside of all of this is all right michael hold the line 'cause i wanna make sure we get renan cut yeah just want to add some of my colleagues a particularly one of my colleagues dot king has done a lot of reporting on this a an i think what what what you see happening here is a long term plan by china for social control because a just by cracking down in the region and tried to do this and and the the regular schools the parents were still teaching their kids is the language and the culture and things that whole but in this way you you separate them from their parents they don't have the opportunity to do that in in as you appoint before you're you're really educating these kids you know because they're being taught mandarin there no opportunity for the parents to come in in bolster their culture and language at at home so it it seems to be a really long term plan a by the chinese to stifle consent in that area putting the brakes on their cultural continuity right we've seen tactics like this in many many places the united states and canada education of of native a first nations children in canada in australia's well the chinese were taking a page it seems let's go to north korea and in some ways after this week it seems like a year ago that the president's crossed a line in north korea but it was only a couple of days ago he became the first sitting usa president to do this stuff because that is a great on a lot of progress on sunday in front of the world's press president donald trump cross over from south korea to north korea to meet north korea's leader kim jong hoon on his own turf to talked about restarting negotiations on nuclear agreement but on wednesday after the united states sent a letter urging united nations member countries descend back there north three in workers the north korean mission to the u n said washington was quote more and more hell bent on the style acts against pyongyang more rhetoric out of north create a new number at what should we take away from this photo a moment at the border was it is spontaneous as the president's says it was he says i was standing there in in in leader kim said step over and i said i use i she said he'd be honored and i did and that was it more calculated in that what should we draw from this because of the rest of us this is the first time in history big deal while the surreal optics of that meeting on this past weekend i think if one had a crystal full looking into the next two years or five years i mean one big question i would love to know is whether or not this president president trump a you know looking back at this time whether he would have been you know in america needed that rudy broke through north korea's obama a coke snows correct out of it saw isolation but he achieved a paving the way towards denuclearization or did he will we look back and think he created regional chaos of the lead to be unleashing of a nuclear war i mean i think one of the key points to is that if turns out to be a one time a trump presidency north korea has a lot to lose in terms of this summit this many summits a it was the first sign of a breakthrough in some time so in that sense it was a political victory be a full president trump i think i think one of the things that's key piece of this is is china and china's relationship boats in north korea and president trump was some speculation that in the trade war between u s in china ending deteriorating racing relations between beijing and washington that xi jinping a as a concession might have offered to help u s with north korea and this was radius swiping the face of beijing president trump basically segmenting to china he doesn't need beijing dang to do business with kim jong un michael goldfarb there wouldn't be optics and the photo off which looked very nice it's it's better to see to leaders of enemy country shaking hands and smiling than it is to see them rattling sabres at one another i suppose but the downside for many analysts of this photo op present trump stepping across the border into north korea what is that it was the photo op kim wanted in the united states gave it up gave him something he wanted in exchange free exactly nothing yeah well you know what's interesting i i'm gonna challenge the way you framed the question a little talk because it seems to me that at this point in his presidency we understand rican say that you know donald trump hasn't changed his his habits all that much means a real estate guy and you could just as easily see him you know outside some brownfield side just before grant groundbreaking and he's talking to the you know his fellow developer mr kim from be koreanamerican association andy says we're gonna build a great building here he doesn't have the money lined up he's got nothing in place but he's got a great photo op and he walks away and you know this is how we do business you know for decades you know there's nothing behind it and i think it's it's time to start looking at his actions particularly in foreign policy as an extension of the way he did business is a real estate mogul 'em and i think that these optics are offer him and i think the speed with which north korea was back on hostile mode in terms of its pronouncements is proof of that and i am very curious know perhaps nina knows you know when a i think the president's we'd go to career or did kim go to beijing in the last couple of weeks and yeah they jay he yeah yeah and what what on earth were they talking about this happened so quickly i have the answer to that raised u n n michael to your point about the president's handling of foreign policy in the same way he might handle a groundbreaking of course it almost goes without saying but i have to say it at the stakes are so very much higher in this case enron meanwhile even if michael is completely right the president is conducting foreign policy with all of v emptiness of a ribbon cutting ribbon cutting ceremony for casino somewhere there are people in the administration who are still trying to do the work of diplomacy there are people any apparatus even though it's haphazard perhaps are still trying to do the work and i've seen a lot of very smart endless you now say be idea of the big deal denuclearization for normalization gone that was gone in the last round we reported on several months ago it's now back to where we were before incremental ism and gradual tried to get freezes or little tiny tidbits on each side to try to get a better player i think that's that's that's where of leads the careers within state department are and looking at not this graying deal but if we can give you something you give up something a because as you saw what they did the rhetoric coming from north korea you know they are not about to just give up their nuclear programs for nothing a deer being hit with crippling sanctions 'em in that's their biggest focus is that well you gotta do something about these these sanctions and the fear is that the president might give up something bigger like you know easing sanctions for something that i just incremental a promise from the north to say he got a great deal something a deal from them right greatest deal ever so often it seems to me when it's time to move on to another high stakes topic from north korea that topic is iran an it always seems now in american diplomacy in foreign policy as soon as we're done talking about one very scary point we talk about these other so let's go to around because in the years since president trump chose to pull the united states out of the multi nation iran nuclear deal tensions of course between iran and the u s has escalated we've seen tensions on the lower level in the persian gulf downing of u s drones threats of threats of retaliatory strikes a threats against other shipping this morning reported a in the persian gulf but iran now inching closer towards building the capacity at least for nuclear clear weapons announcing that it will exceed de enrich uranium enrichment limits under the deal because the uss pulled out of the deal why should we stick to these limits when sanctions continue maria what do we know about iran's actual intentions here not only only with busting me uranium limits but the small bore stuff di di gunboats in the gulf the downing of drones the needle pricks all over the place sitter raising the temperature well i i actually just wanted to mention quite a significant development this week which was the british seizure of this oil ship off the coast of japan rules because that is important in that it's the first time you has taken a publicly aggressive a sort of taking publicly aggressive action against iran that's always been a question about how seriously you takes us sanctions in terms of the usa administrations positioning on iran a you know the concern is obviously president trump is seeing every possible legal avenue you just see what military action could be taken at loose made the point in the financial times this week which i thought was really interesting is it in the seeming allies in assuming that this is going to be one time a trump presidency making a un pulling the state but if it turns out be a two time trump presidency a they're all going to be loses angie cannot reset time you cannot go back in time and it seemed when we come out of the presidency that we will be back where we were and going back to your point about iran's the missions where it wants to go with its intentions be implication is the iran doesn't want to negotiate with with this you as president and that will will sister's house the next one up but there is no going back in you know in eighteen months time we could be witnessing a full scale wall between the usa and iran a european countries need to be watching law honda i think to to break some ground on michael do you have the same fears in iran as you do in north korea that the president president is conducting diplomacy like one of his deals an nfc answer is yes what about the european allies who were these other part of this equation 'em are are are sanctions were still on and they're they're not yeah well it's it's interesting because they're so part they're still signatories to be a chick poa as they actually agreement 'em so their application of sanctions i mean they're they're sort of the tricks in between 'em and there there has been tension about the british seizure by the way i mean the spanish spanish have said look you know this you took his off to a broader which i think is there's an end you know so there's already tension with in a in intramural within either too i think they're to actually very different situations ends because north korea actually has a weapon so you're dealing with someone who actually can use it they have delivery systems that can hit a crucial american ally japan and quite possibly the west coast but i think that that's an exaggeration direction with iran it's a different thing in one of the things that often happens in the view from here from where i'm sitting in london is the the the one of the key players is left out of the conversation in washington and i'm speaking of russia iran isn't wind with russia in a deep embrace in syria iran is in twined by geography with russia it is a mere five hundred miles from russia's main pain west coast port on the caspian sea to iran's a main port on the southern edge of the caspian sea and russia has a great deal to say about how far iran will go in terms of you know it's just kind of tit for tat you know you you ratchet up sanctions were going to shoot a drone down that we think is in our airspace that kind of thing i suppose the danger is you know if if there's miscommunication but i think more than the european union i think you really have to look at what the russian dynamic is in terms of the iranian situation ron on 'em resident trump responded to 'em you announcement from iranian president ruhani sing it they will enrich uranium he says and this is on on twitter ron has just issued a new warning ruhani says they will enrich uranium to any amount we want if there is no nuclear deal be careful with the threats iran they come back to bite you like nobody has been bitten before just a tweet 'em i don't know how much it tells us about actual american foreign policy we keep hearing this worry that we may be headed toward but that last sentence does reid like a threat in the senate tried unsuccessfully last week to passing amendment requiring president trump ask congress before taking any military action but i think we've seen these kinds of threats before from from president trump and and i think there was this feeling that we would have some type of armed conflict we're luther on a which i don't believe that to be the case i i think that the diplomats full match or trying their best to avert any of this in that there's a lot of them will will say you cannot take the president's treat this as policy a an end to arise for i think iran target it's not really the usa their their target in in terms of trying to influence what's going on is europe mean they're trying to saying look you guys need to do something because you know we have abided by by this agreement that we all agree to you as pulled out of this i mean you guys have allies with e u s you need to do something but it's unclear exactly what the european countries connection can do in what common leverage they can muster against instead united against or where let's say west united states will ron ron i wanna trade on your expertise you're expertise in sudan because there is a big agreement military and opposition leaders announced today they've reached an agreement to share power until elections take place and about three years were talking about a terrible civil war in sudan this deal came after protests that led to the ouster of longtime resident omar all the sheer thee military leader crackdown in a deadly attack on protesters last month it's been awful situation of some light now in this awful situation how does this power sharing deal worth this this appears to be a pretty major step forward in in a in sudan a because either there was hope after they the the sheer was removed from office a you know people in the streets a celebrating but then as you mentioned you have the crackdown and so there is less off you know less optimism about what what happened 'em end so i think now with this i think they call it the sovereign council that will be set up where you would have a belief five members of the civilian a firm civilians in five military people in in one person that is chosen by by both of them that will govern the country for three years or a little bit more and they will take turns a sharing power sharing the leadership so that's a major step i think they the key here though is can they pull it off you know i think the agreement is is is great and i think everybody agrees that that is great but the key is pulling it off kid they actually do this ad kid they agree on the people who would actually take leadership of this council and then the following question you maria may be if all of that is accomplished as ron is describing can the deal hold for any significant amount of time while i think that that is absolute be cool to the to the future of a suit on as we've seen in south sudan attempts to reach a peace deal of stolz and a and a on and ongoing basis that's been ethnic violence you know we're in a period of relative peace now because it's finally a peace deal was struck there are plenty of us sudanese refugees now in south sudan a you know the region is oversee dealing with all kinds of different challenges you know buddha violence ethnic violence as a first case of a boner was found on the border with d r c a just lost it this week so you know i don't know what to say ready i mean by share share what happens to him whether he's been active behind the scenes is a real question it's it's great news of course it there's been some kind of mediation process and then agreement reached the african union involved in the future of suit on but i think is wrong says it's early days and it has the united states been if any help here we've been completely in the background i i'm not even sure if you us role here how if there's been one that's constructive to my knowledge it's been technical a ways away the state department x but so busy taking an a row but i think as far as this administration's priorities concerns suit on is not one of them i wanna go northwest into libya where an airstrike hit a migrant detention center outside of the capitol on tuesday night leaving according to reports it lists at least fifty three people dead one hundred and thirty wounded they attack at a hangar used to detain mostly african migrants captured by libyan authorities nigerian detainee osman moosa survived attack he spoke jeff ross twentyfour once new in to help people are throwing this is before this this is into those we we know is willing to help when i did before was we'll have fending fellow to do anything to make matters worse in libya united nations says it received reports the guards fired on migrants fleeing that bond building just days later a boat carrying migrants trying to reach europe from libya sank off the coast of neighboring tunisia only three of the eighty six people on board survived that thinking ron do we know who's responsible for that air strike on the migrant detention center we do what motivated me do it it's a it their strike was done by the libyan national army which is led by i general khalifa halftime who is engaged in eight battle for control of the country with the government of national the government of national record which is you an internationally recognized government of a libya a in so his goal is to take over a de entirety of libya because since kit doctor he was removed livia has just broken down there is no central government a an it is critical 'em trends for country for migrants coming up through various from various african countries trying to get to to europe but because there is no central government these detention centers are run by militias a and so this particular at a detention center according to these the libya national army they were trying to hit the detention center they were trying the hit one of the militias though is in the same neighborhood a they don't deny that it was hit they just said that it was not their their intent and do we know anything about their tactics that would go to a motivation in other words is that claim credible how do they had a history of of bombing detention centers where they have a reason to wanna murder migrants not to my knowledge and again this that doesn't mean they have it but not to my knowledge that they have targeted these detention centers because you know again the detention detention centers are places where these african migrants are held an there these are folks who they the libyan government has trying to keep from going to europe but also to return those folks home so they're not a it's not like these are welcoming center the short for for people there but i feel strongly on this you sort of more moral culpability needs to come under scrutiny steel with libya that it's been two years in the making which i demand libya a but retains a migrants on that side of the mediterranean shore in a in an effort to stop them from voting boats people smugglers and a making the precarious johnny a two to one europe i mean it's been catastrophic i think a real questions around a weather on that policy is basically proving to be a death sentence for refugees and you know there's been significant reporting on on a boat and he has done to to pressure the countries along that ram of the mediterranean sea keep migrants in detention camps a on those shows moral code and other countries to but i think europe's role in all of this needs a castle screws in a michael come along with me to afghanistan because i need your help first situation there where the taliban said they were responsible for a major attack on monday in kabul where a car bomb in a gun battle killed roughly forty people including schoolchildren injured a hundred people more an awful full attack it came as negotiators from the united states in the taliban met for peace talks encounter in an interview that aired monday night president trump told tucker carlson of fox news that he'd like to get u s troops out of afghanistan but he said it's not easy we've reduced the force very substantially in afghanistan which a i don't talk about very much and that's okay juicy getting out entirely i'll tell you the problem is like i would like to just get up the problem is it it just seems to be a lab terrorist the same cycle at the harvard upstairs michael gopher why would the taliban take credit for this attack in the middle of winter supposed to be negotiations for the future of the country the taliban well i look the taliban will continue to apply pressure on both sides that's how they have always operated they don't lay down weapons for a period of negotiation which is sort of what we've come to expect the taliban taliban always applies pressure the taliban is perhaps not a centrally controlled as it just we might assume it is because we say the taliban there may be factions within and i think that may well have been the situation and we don't know know what the local situation is on the ground in kabul because there could be tensions have been building up and and affection decides what we're gonna do this now while everybody's in cutter having a talk this is how how how the world goes michael the president made a remark there and his fox news comments that stood out he said you don't hear about it much we don't talk about it much and that's okay the president's right we don't hear much from him on afghanistan we don't hear much from democrats in congress congress or democrats on the campaign trail and yes it's true americans tend to not be incredibly concerned with foreign policy at the same time it seems likely upper echelons of this country are not focus there in maybe just want us out well troops have keep everything they try and reduce troops something happens they can't get rid of all of them and yes i mean i think i think there were still colleagues based in afghanistan but how often do they get on there how often did they get in the papers and there is a dynamic which we sometimes forget it you know if there is no pressure coming up through journalism reporting to people and people saying she's you gotta do something about this then policymakers in washington may not feel quite the same pressure to deal with the situation and you know i'm sitting here looking at the clock not because i'm in a hurry to go but look at the number of crises we have already discussed indy and we still got another what ten minutes to talk now that's a lot of work for the state department to be getting on with it's a lot of focus for the administration to be trying to focus on and let's face it the reporting porting domestically is it this is not a white house which has a lot of focus so it becomes a real problem 'em you know what is i'd like to go back if if we made just to what nino was saying about libya and the european union i mean this is actually the source of the migrant crisis has so destabilized the political equilibrium of europe just as you know it's kind of destabilized politics in america donald on the southern border you know these are the crises the people look up look at more closely taught and so afghanistan which has been going on for us since two thousand and one that's almost twenty years you know it's like the forever warned it gets promoting the longest war in american history even though it seems like it's at a very low level at least for the united states now a war nonetheless well crisis around the world calls her leadership around the world we look to swag leaders to handle these crisis crises into exact diplomacy on our adversaries to keep the violence at a minimum did we ever count on chief diplomat ivanka trump handily matters for the united states and i ask it because it's been a very significant week for many women on the world stage but let's talk about ivanka who gave some rather awkward footage to the world press a lot of means were generating when the president's daughter started trying to engage with world leaders at the g twenty nina maria what was ivanka trump doing at the g twenty end did she knows that she was gonna generate all those means good question with this week the hashtag unwanted ivanka a whiz whiz born i mean the body language you have various body language experts coming out to examine the way in which she conducted herself they could moments in which she superimposing imposed a cell phone conversations at the g twenty of the videos i i think the real concern is that this whole incident wasn't just all could it could have damaged american diplomacy and if you'll standing in beijing or a frankly even north korea a un saying ivanka trump wading into discussions with world leaders the question is what is she doing there and of course the balance of power that may be that she herself or her father is lining up a lightning her up to be a possibly a next president's i would make one point about ivanka trump which is we spent the week laughing at that incident and her parents at the g twenty we spent a lot of time laughing at president trump's twenty sixteen when the prospect of him becoming president just seemed obscure and completely surreal we're not laughing anymore point well taken michael goldfarb if your premise that the president's conduct world affairs like a ribbon cutting ceremony at a casino then the corollary is why not why not have ivanka there in the photo off why not have her mingling with president's foreign countries get her in there even though she doesn't have experience on the world stage why not well you know it's it's funny so justice question when i started the podcast it was just before a trump won the election and i was gonna do something else with with first round draft of history ended up being always almost about trump and i put together a panel including a my friend meena i'll i'll raby whose the editor of the national which comes out about dobie and she said that donald trump is gonna do incredibly credibly well we're v arab rulers in the middle east because he brings his family into it and this is the way they've always done business in the middle east you know if you wanna talk to the king then you speak to his son and i think there is we do laugh but you know they're i think they're sexually that is something that is very clear now to world leaders certainly in the middle eastern perhaps elsewhere that if you want to get president trump's ear your better best of having a stablishment relationship with jared kushner or now as we see with ivanka because they actually get his ear whereas you know a a white house full of high priced at a high price people like john bolton don't have his ear and that is a very important point to make we can laugh i mean is rice who we shouldn't laugh too loud there may actually be method here it may not be traditional and it may not be effective in the long run but for the moment this is the method well i wanna raise another name the name of aka trump is not new to americans here's unnamed it might be new maria just new on the world stage talking about powerful women a in front of the world ursel yvonne it ursula underline line pardon me is a long time close ally of germany's chancellor merkel and she's emerge from the shadow is a person that many people have not heard before she's now nominated as the new president of the european commission who is she she's a german defense minister start in fact i'm gonna michael has i stains and she obstain from that vote because she had issues with a coalition resisting that nomination a e u lawmakers is well are extremely cross a with her nomination m v they were marathon negotiations lost it at least forty eight hours in brussels this week i mean nice from my perspective is a woman to see you know sunny christina god and the and the surprise nomination the defense minister you know it's it's it's great to see women nominated i think that it's we still got a way to go before a iser those nominations are in endorsed and sunny lawmakers i think was thrown on a sunny on articulated quite a degree of anger a the the nominations that they would have opted for one of the photos that we saw on twitter and instagram of ivanka trump among many people she rubbed elbows west during the week was christine lagarde you just mentioned she somebody plenty of people have gotten to know over the years she's charity international monetary fund since twenty eleven and she's now taking over as the president of the european central bank a very powerful position it's been noted that we now have another lawyer in charge of another very powerful bank of course they're gonna be giving attention and to her for being the first woman to league easy be of course but but she she very much part of the status quo at the easy be what can europeans expect from her christine god is you know how a tenure jeff has been somewhat controversial and you know she's she's a known entity on the global stage and is deemed safe pair of hands and i and i think and unpredictable times of of market uncertainty in europe you know it seems that a safe powerhouses what the european central bank needs and you know it's not a bonus she's the woman but she doesn't come without her incessantly she's indeed in in one of these things decreasing does have to offer or is this conversation about powerful women on the world stage and she talked about it on the daily show trevor noah on comedy central about the question of why men are still paid more women in twenty nineteen she addressed this directly this is a complete waste of time waste of energy and waste of resources so women have to be given the same opportunities but given the same salary and have the same exactly right as men christine lagarde taking over the european central bank with a message indeed indeed well i wanna thank my guest for being here fifty international edition of the friday news roundup michael goldfarb host of the first rough draft of history podcast you are there in london michael thank you so much my pleasure new maria pots director of global news coverage feature story news new maria thank you thank you enron nixon international investigations editor at these associated press author of the book selling apart hide south africa's global propaganda war thanks to you ron thank you and before i leave you let's give a note to u s women's world soccer in france they've been crushing it during the women's world cup dominating each round they blew past eight determined england early in the week sorry to our executive producer report allman who's in england fan of tv audience here and they united states north of seven million making it the most watched soccer game on english language tv since the men's world cup final uss play the dutch this weekend and when you're watching them ask yourself this are you watching just a team or are you watching a movement i'm gonna say it's the ladder go team usa the game is on sunday at i believe eleven am show get up had you're coffee sleep late and then put on your kid because usa women are in the final of the world cup i wanna thank you all for joining us one eight senior team or lindsey foster thomas daniel night denise couture this episode was edited by miranda fillmore this program comes to you from w m u part of american university in washington is distributed by npr joshua will be back with you on monday until we

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The News Roundup for December 27, 2019

1A

1:27:26 hr | 1 year ago

The News Roundup for December 27, 2019

"This is one A.. I'm Indira Lakhshman on in Washington. Renton it may be the holidays but the news never takes a break on Capitol Hill Tis. The season for impeachment majority leader. Nancy Pelosi Z.. And Senate Majority Leader Mitch. McConnell have dug in their respective heels amid questions about where the articles of impeachment will go from the House with Democratic Democratic and Republican leaders at an impasse paralyzed like holiday revellers in a post Christmas sugar slump. President trump interrupted his Christmas vacation in at his resort and mar-a-lago to rail against his impeachment. We have a perfect case. I say it again. We have a perfect case. They had no case all right. Well we are joined today to talk about the impeachment choir inquiry and the rest of the week's top news with Michael Wilner. A White House correspondent with mcclatchy Michael. Welcome the Alexandra. Jaffe reports on politics for the Associated Press Alexandra always a pleasure. Thanks for having me and And even McKEN congressional correspondent with spectrum news and she's joining us from NPR in New York Eva. Welcome to one A.. All right thanks so much for for having me back. Let's start off with you Michael. This time. Last Friday the House of Representatives voted to impeach president. Donald Trump with a vote. That split mostly along party aligns a week later House majority leader. Nancy Pelosi is refusing to send those articles of impeachment to the Senate where Democrats say a fair trial is impossible label unless rules are outlined. I for witnesses. Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch. McConnell says his party will decide whether to call witnesses and the rules will be. She's apparently believes that she can tell us how to run the trial. Look what I've been advocating to senator. Schumer is exactly the same same way. We had all the Clinton impeachment twenty years ago which he voted for you. Listen to the opening arguments. You have a written question period and at that point in the Clinton trial we had a decision about which witnesses to call and as you can imagine that was a pretty partisan an exercise. But we didn't let the partisan part of it keep us from getting started. So all I'm doing is say what was good enough for. President Clinton is good enough for president trump. Aw that was Senate Majority Leader Mitch. McConnell speaking on Fox and friends so Michael Why after impeaching the President did Democrats not now want to send send those same articles of impeachment to the Senate well Indira for for a host of reasons Obviously McConnell is drawing a comparison Civic Clinton impeachment trial but of course the The vote in the house in Nineteen Ninety Eight followed followed an exhaustive investigation Led by a you know obviously can can star in the house Ahead an opportunity to call Witnesses obviously that was not the case this time and you have In fact one of the two articles of impeachment Peach Mint against President trump is obstruction of congress. So you have the house speaker now calling For guarantees before she sends those the articles That there there's going to be an opportunity to hear from those additional witnesses that The Democrats obviously considered to be material To due to case all right so Alexandra Jaffe Senate Democratic Minority Leader Chuck Schumer spoke to reporters earlier this week demanding that the trump administration release more documents and witnesses ahead of the Senate trial. It's hard to imagine a trial. Not having documents and witnesses. If it doesn't have documents and witnesses it's GONNA seem to. Most of the American people that it is a sham trial that echoes Nancy. Pelosi to tweeted out on Monday quote. The House cannot choose our impeachment managers until we know what sort of trial the Senate will conduct. President trump blocked his own witnesses and documents from the House and from the American people on phone complaints about the house process on quote quote. Alex does she have a point. Well I mean I think she she has a point and that's why she's holding up the process but at the same time Schumer suggesting that this this process will go forward without any witnesses a bit of hyperbole We have heard from folks on Capitol Hill that they expect. Some sort of compromise will be reached that some witnesses will be heard. The question really is who. Because Schumer has emphasized he wants to see a few specific witnesses stand trial in in the Senate. Those include Mulvaney They include John Bolton And a few others and he he also reiterated that that Request after these new emails came out earlier this week revealing that ninety minutes after that infamous sort of conversation between president trump and the Ukrainian president A White White House appointee called for the aid to Ukraine to be halted. So he's he's basically said you know there's more evidence that we need more People to testify. It's just a matter of who both Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer Agree to testify And that's still up in the air one of our listeners. Jim writes to us. Take take the politics out of impeachment and the bare bones process is that the house is trying to force the Senate to have a presidential election. Either what's your response to that. And the Republican contention that this is a sham trial yeah. Republicans have maintained that this is a political process rather than a judicial one when I asked Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell on the hill last week if he would be able to be an impartial partial juror Given his comments about coordinating closely with the White House And sort of there being no daylight between them. He said that he's very very frankly. He's not going to be an impartial jer. And so this is the position that at least some Republicans have adopted. This is more political than anything thing else we did. See this week US Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska come out and say that. She was uncomfortable with leader McConnell language and that she does want it to be more of a fair process but she also admonished the house for how quickly that they moved to get to this Impeachment so I think that that will be a perennial argument. The this is more political than anything. Nothing else I'm glad you brought up Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska. Let's listen to what she had to say speaking to CNN on Wednesday and fairness. When I heard that I was disturbed to me it means that we have to take that step back from being hand hand in glove with the defense and so I I heard what leader McConnell had said I happen to think that that has further confused the process so either Senator Murkowski's these comments here do they signal some pent up pressure within the GOP to break ranks. Or is this just one senator. WHO's always been willing to go her own way? Yeah Yeah I think I think this is. I think that it's important to listen to Senator Murkowski but I don't know if it's going to be instructive of how other Republicans Where they'll go? It might be actually a little false hope for Democrats. We've seen moderate Republicans like Senator Susan Collins of Maine sort of come out and have these really perform displays of of of expressing concern. But that doesn't necessarily translate to the bucking the party It's important to note of many years ago. Twenty years ago during the Clinton Impeachment Collins voted to acquit Clinton in large part because he was a popular president and she made up sort of a large episode about saying that she had grave misgivings with but ultimately didn't didn't volt to remove him. And so I think we might see a lot of that again. We'll hurts decision in the house. A moderate Republican in the house his dish Susan actually might be more more instructive about where Republicans will go. We have to remember that they arguably are more afraid to go up against trump more afraid of the political political consequences of a single tweet. I think more so than Democrats are of their political leadership so one of our listeners. Joshua tweets is there a constitutional constitutional basis on which Nancy Pelosi can withhold. The articles of impeachment. Is there any basis that would compel her to pass them along and and And Tammy Asks Can Mitch. McConnell be brought up on obstruction of justice for refusing to call certain witnesses. So Michael. What's next does the Senate need the House of Representatives to send them the articles of impeachment or could McConnell bring them up himself or just ignore them It's a good question. One one of the Democratic Witnesses constitutional scholars in the house impeachment inquiry That testified before that judiciary committee has come out out and said that in fact the president's not actually impeached until They send the articles over to the Senate. That's a minority view. But there is some gray area in terms of constitutional jurisprudence if you will One thing is clear that there is not going to be a Senate the trial until Pelosi sends those articles over and there doesn't seem to be a clear mechanism for her Forcing Curtis send them and really quickly. Is there a deadline by which the trial has to go forward or can the stalemate be indefinite I don't believe that there is a deadline. Alright that's mcclatchy Michael Wilner. We're also speaking with Alexandra. Jaffe of the Associated Press and Eva McKenzie Spectrum News. I'm dear Lakhshman. Executive Produce Executive editor are at the Pulitzer Center. I'm glad to be with you. You're listening to one A. from W. Amu an NPR. Stay close breath support for this podcast and the following message come from Uber. Uber is committed to safety and to continuously raising the bar to help make safer for journeys for everyone for starters. All drivers are background checked before their first ride and screened on an ongoing basis and now uber has introduced a brand new new safety feature called ride check which attacked a trip goes unusually off course and check in to provide support to learn more about Uber's commitment to safety visit Uber Dot com slash safety. Did you get a smart speaker for a gift over the holidays. Well consider it the gift that keeps on giving right because it can help you keep up with the news just say play. NPR to hear your local NPR station. And all your favorite. NPR shows as well. This is one A. I'm Indira Lakhshman on we're we're rounding up the week's top headlines across the US with mcclatchy Michael Wilner Alexandra Jaffe of the Associated Press and even McKEN of spectrum news so we left Taufa Alex talking about whether there's any deadline by which the impeachment trial has to move from the house to the Senate. Tell us what you know. So there doesn't appear to be any constitutional national imperative to get this sort of moving Right now it's A. It's a question of politics. Does it make more sense for Democrats to hold onto these impeachment Proceedings in stole things. Because they're putting pressure on Donald trump piece set out of a number of tweets suggesting that the pressure of you know not finalizing this is this procedure is getting to him or does it hurt Democrats in that. They'll be seen as creating turning this this effort into purely a political effort And also you consider this will keep a number of democratic senators running for president off of the campaign trail so could also affect the twenty twenty presidential race so so right now I think Democrats look at this having some of the leverage first of all nothing was gonNA happen over the congressional recess to begin with so they didn't have to figure this out until they all come back in in January But it it's a matter of whether they think that they can continue to put pressure on Donald trump by extending and delaying the procedures. And Right now. They appear to think so Eva There's some new evidence that could complicate the White House's case government emails obtained by the Center for Public Integrity Hegarty which is a non-partisan investigative. Newsroom show the trump administration ordered a hold on military aid to Ukraine less than two hours after after that now infamous July phone call between president trump and Ukrainian President Vladimir's Alinsky walk us through these emails. who were they from? And what are they they about. Yeah they're from a senior White House official at the NBA Michael Duffy. He's a former state legislator republican state legislator in Ohio and essentially. He requested a pause on military aid to Ukraine to the DOD and Said this was the should be kept closely held to those who need to know and it just casts more suspicion on the entire episode sold and gives ammunition and fuel to Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer who says that. These emails highlight the significance of having additional witnesses additional documents. I think that this is why Senate Majority Leader Mitch. McConnell and Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina two of the president's allies want the Senate trial to happen quickly because the more that comes out there is has the potential for this to become increasingly problematic for the president and increasingly difficult to defend this entire. Not only the phone call all but all of these surrounding events but as time elapses it also could become harder and harder for Democrats to defend holding up the articles right speaker. Pelosi said that this impeachment and if it were to happen it did happen. It had to happen before Christmas. She was intended. She wanted wanted to be quick and so If if that is the case then how much of it is really an emergency if the house continues to hold onto these articles. Let's take stock of what some of our listeners are saying. Brian Writes Nancy. Pelosi is right to be cautious ashes about the Senate Mitch. McConnell has zero credibility in no scruples whatsoever says this listener. The MERRICK garland obstruction. He's referring to Obama's nominee for the Supreme Court who never was given a hearing the stonewalling of democratic judicial appointments the ramming through of Republican judicial appointments and McConnell's own admission that he's in lockstep with the president to name. Just a few reasons. Danny writes it would be nice if Republicans ends which show some exculpatory evidence instead of whining. About how unfair it is to the president. They're the ones making partisan otherwise they'd follow the constitutional `institutional rules that are laid out for this specific situation and Rio tweets us. How long can speaker Pelosi retain those articles those of impeachment for whatever reason as long as the House Speaker holds the articles the Senate Cantu quit and therefore trump can't use the excuse? I've I've been acquitted. I did nothing wrong on his campaign on my campaign right so Michael. Is there something to that to the idea that maybe she's holding on on to the articles of impeachment somewhat for political reasons. Because she knows that it'll go to the Senate and he'll be he'll be able to say I got off. I was acquitted certainly The moment that POLISI sends those articles over to the Senate is the moment that Democrats essentially lose control over this process They will no longer have a aside from their impeachment. Managers who will make requests of the chief justice will preside over the trial Aside from that they they will not have Control over the procedure To to the prior point on Republicans providing exculpatory evidence for the president. I didn't I don't think that that is their strategy. I think it's been their strategy from the beginning. I think a lot of these facts are baked in including these center for a public integrity emails showing Alum Bi a communications correct. Thank you The hold on the hold on aid. I don't think any of these factors have actually changed Move the needle if you will in terms of Public support For or against impeachment much less support within the Republican Party for this President I think all the basic facts underlying this impeachment process are are out there and we're GONNA continue to get a pieces of information. Bits of color that add to the story. But we but we're not necessarily going into unless John Bolton testifies the former National Security Council can get Major new revelations. Well let's talk about that. Let's talk about the public support for or against impeachment. I'm really curious you know where it was a week ago before he was impeached. And how has that changed changed since he was impeached. Alex you WanNa go first. It hasn't much Most polls have shown. Public support has been pretty static. Typically it's a thin majority the in favor of impeaching but not in favor of removing the president and that has not changed over the course of these proceedings and it's been interesting getting out of Washington and reporting on and you know what folks who are involved in this day to day. Feel about this. I was in Iowa last weekend at a town hall for Congresswoman Cindy Acne. She's running in a trump district. She she One in two thousand eighteen by just about two percentage points less than fifty percent. So it's a tough race. Nobody brought up impeachment Not even Republicans and showed up to this town hall to speak about impeachment. When I left the town hall and went down the street in the district I was hearing nonstop? Republicans basically saying this is a waste of time. I wish they would focus because on things that actually affect me in my life And that's things that I've heard in Wisconsin and other states that I visited so outside of. DC You know. We're talking about the political implications of this. But I I the sense I get is that most Americans are a little bit exhausted by the nonstop news not following day-to-day and this isn't going to make an impact one way or another other very quickly. Michael I know you have some polls in front of you of Of where the American people are. Just give us some of those figures. So were there at well This this is A compilation by five thirty eight. Which shows us that? Eighty two point seven percent of Democrats Support removal of the president. Nine nine point five percent of Republicans and forty two percent of independence. which is the number to watch When you're looking at some of these you know swing swing state or rather moderate Republicans As well as of course swing state And Swing district members from the polling and political news website fivethirtyeight which also when you put those numbers together it turns out that about forty eight percent of the American public overall supports impeachment about forty seven percent doesn't according to the numbers that fivethirtyeight hat which was remarkably consistent throughout throughout this process. And keep in mind. We've been having all this all this witness testimony. All this evidence come out over the course of The impeachment inquiry and it interest has not changed. Even I want to ask you about some of our listener comments Michael tweets is it the Senate's fault that the House did an incomplete investigation. Russian representative Adam. Schiff he's of course. The Democratic Chairman of the Intelligence Committee opted not to pursue his subpoenas by using being the courts and Brandon tweets dust. I keep hearing from my Republican friends. That trump did the same thing as Joe Biden in terms of asking asking for favors of a foreign government. That is factually untrue. But why do they keep floating this conspiracy. Can you talk to both of those comments. Well both both of those arguments I think are Well our have. Both of those arguments are Republican talking points. We've heard them time and in time again. Well the house rush this process and have they had waited for these subpoenas and waited for the courts to weigh in then they would have perhaps gotten the witnesses that they they wanted to give them a more fuller picture of what happened with Ukraine Adam Schiff said that that was not going to be their strategy. They they weren't going to wait months and months and months and so now it is up to the Senate to decide if they can make a decision based on what they have or would it would be important for them to hear from the people closest to the president so I think based on how you feel about this entire tire episode you'll make a decision on that component one way or the other in terms of sort of a vice. The argument that Vice President Biden did the same the thing we know that that is inaccurate. But there is this video of him that his been well circulated among conservative news outlets out of context. The video is very misleading. Of course a former vice president biden was talking about in that video. What was the US policy at the time was to have that district attorney removed not for the personal benefit of him or his son Hunter Biden but that was in lockstep with what not only the? US wanted but countries around the world. And so but you know absent. Its context just watching that video jio alone. It does sort of fuel this this Republican talking point. Let's get a couple. More comments from our listeners Matt tweets as long as Republicans ends have the majority. It isn't wrong to push for what they want in the Senate but ultimately were all dug in this move angers Republicans and emboldens Democrats mkx rats and nothing is getting better. Mike writes trump and several Republican. Legislators are declaring the Democrats hate the president and hate Republicans and that means that Democrats hate you. The American people has any Republican expressed alarm or any caution action at all about using that kind of incendiary language. Alex well I think with respect to impeachment the only Republican that we've really seen speak out. It is Lisa Murkowski and to some extent Mitt Romney He has been a voice of dissent on sort of how Republicans have overall handled this But you know they don't necessarily surly of track record of changing their overall leadership strategy in in the Republican conference in if you look at it a majority of Republicans in the Senate probably. I agree with a lot of these tactics. And a lot of these. This rhetoric A few more senators to watch though are those in tough states up for reelection in twenty twenty We're talking about. Oh you know Martha mcsally in Arizona. Cory Gardner in Colorado who are facing potentially tough races and are going to be in a tough spot if their party keeps sort of obstructing in what what. Democrats are calling a fair trial so we start seeing them speak out then. We may see a shift in tone and tactics from the Republican Party. All right well one of our listeners. WHO calls himself self? RV A dad tweets. It's frustrating to continue to hear the idea. That impeachment is taking priority over the business of passing laws and running the country when more than three three hundred bills have been passed by the House and the Senate has only taken up a fraction of them. So I think his point is that actually the Senate is not doing in business with the house anyway. So impeachment is not the issue the issue is the Senate doesn't WanNa take up house bills. Of course that's because the house is now run by the Democrats and and Speaker of the House. Nancy Pelosi the Senate still run by Republicans and Mitch McConnell All right well. Let's step away from Capitol Hill and check in. On the rest of America. Erica Boeing has fired. Its CEO less than a month after the company was forced to discontinue production on the seven. Thirty seven Max aircraft that once bestselling selling plane was involved in two deadly crashes and has been grounded by regulators since March. Michael Stu Mos daughter Samira was among the three three hundred and forty six people killed in those crashes and he spoke to. NPR's all things considered on Tuesday. We they blew all my family they kill Samya in. We're starting to figure out why but I do know that when you have the things that we now know they knew if you are a manufacturing facturing CEO and you find these things are going on in your plan. You fix it now. You go in you clean house. You put in systems to detect the stuff before it gets out of an you do not sweep it under the rug. It is bad management and it kills people in this case. That was Michael Studio. whose daughter was killed? In one of the two Boeing thirty seven seven thirty seven crashes last year so Michael is it. A surprise that the Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg was forced out or is it a surprise that he lasted this long. That's a good question The it was a fraud choice for Boeing and obviously of six hundred companies that better within the supply chain of the of this aircraft model All of the number of jobs that are affected by whatever. Whatever decision that Boeing makes bleeding a billion Dollars a month Simply in this holding pattern if you will over our The seven thirty seven Mac so this was a difficult decision for any CEO to make But obviously The company came to the conclusion that this requires a change in leadership. Eva will talk about this more after the break but briefly just tell us the name of the new CEO and something short about about what we know about him. He is his name. Is David Calhoun. It seems as though that the Priority well actually. I want to say Byu report about Tom. Mullen bird you know. In this political climate he was becoming a symbol of corporate greed. I don't know if that necessarily fair to ascribe that to just one person but but it is what it is and that's what he was viewed as publicly. And so that's why they made this change but it's hard to see how this new CEO is going to complicate that that image he is a Republican donor For a long time so hard to see how he'll be able to to to change that image but it seems like bones priority more than anything is to get the seven thirty seven Max back up in the air. That's even kind of spectrum news. We're also speaking with mcclatchy. latches Michael Wilner and Alexandra Jaffe of the AP. I'm endear Lakhshman. We'll have much more in a moment. Stay with US support for. NPR comes from Newman's own foundation working to nourish the common good by donating all profits from Newman's own food products to charitable creditable organizations. That seek to make the world a better place. More information is available at Newman's own foundation dot org. Hey there it's Joshua thanks for listening thing to the one a podcast. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a rating so that other people can find the show to thanks when you travel to a new place. Sometimes it doesn't just change where you are. It changes who you are next on. NPR's code switch a story about travel and transformation. Listen soon and subscribe. This is Indira Lakhshman. So we were talking about the Boeing. CEO being ousted and replaced and and some of our listeners. Have thoughts here Erin. Rights I bet Boeing as wishing they had recommended to the airlines that pilots get training on the seven thirty seven. Max Ax which is what should have happened. In the first place as click and clack used to say in the end the stingy person pays the most she's of course referring to click and clack who were the hosts of that wonderful vintage. NPR program out of W. B. U. R. IN BOSTON. Car Talk Although I think that part of the problem here was is that the the planes. That crash actually didn't have a backup system so it wasn't just about the training was also about the extra money that Boeing was charging for a specific civic. Backup system that planes. Outside of the United States some countries who were trying to save money had not spent that extra money for garland another listener points out the CEO of Boeing. Getting almost forty million dollars for leaving after all these people have died. So Alex tell us. If the problem is the culture at Boeing as Michael Stu Mo who we listened to whose daughter was killed in one of those crashes says and not the CEO himself then we'll his ouster actually make a difference. Well that's the question. I think that I Listener got to an issue with Boeing. That's been ongoing ongoing. which is this question of whether they have sort of focused on profits over safety And this new. CEO that they've elevated David Calhoun who was the board chairman. It has sort of a background in private equity which has a number of people wondering whether he's going to be focusing on the wrong things. Some former Boeing executives has said have said that the The company needs to refocus on engineering and get back to sort of its prowess an engineering to regain its former status and that elevating a guy who is known for focusing on Prophet may not be the best sort of face to do that Some of worried that it's it's really a situation of optics that he will be a better spokesman the Paseo th that has resigned It remains to be seen. What sort of changes spoiling takes place? This is just a first step but you know needless to say there are concerns about the new CEO. So let's turn to some political fault lines that were exposed this week within the Evangelical Community last week Christianity Today the magazine gene started by iconic preacher billy. Graham published an editorial decrying president trump as immoral and calling for his removal from office. The editorial editorial sent shockwaves throughout the Evangelical Community This Week Rival Publication Christian Post countered with its own editorial defending vending trump and accusing Christianity. Today of being run by elites not everyone the Christian Post agreed a lead editor resigned Zayn in protest over his publications defense of the president. So Eva is this just a rivalry between two publications or does the dispute dispute exposed a rift in how at least white evangelicals feel about trump. Right I think this reveal the broader question. I think now how the conversation is what does it mean to be an evangelical Some powerful as powerful comment that Christianity to Daya Daya said in response to the backlash that I think is worth mentioning. They said we write for a readership of one. God is our tower let the whirlwind Wind come and so there is a at least that was the editorial in which they said. The president was immoral and should be removed from office. Exactly and they're standing standing by that Editorial and so I think that the the larger question is what does your faith in practice. Look like I think it's noteworthy earthy the both of the op eds even though they've provoked this worthy conversation They didn't really include anything about race into uh-huh or any of the dog whistle language that we've heard in the in this era in the trump era as part of the conversation and so that that should be questioned You know president trump has made a comment earlier this year saying that democratic data congresswoman should go back to where they came from there was also a lot of concern after they were remembering to democratic congresswoman of color in that case right and then the comment in the wake of Charlottesville that there are very fine people on both sides. Why isn't that part of the conversation? We're talking about Christian values news and what it means to be an evangelical why is it sort of just limited to just the events surrounding impeachment. And so this I think think is something that not only invalid. evangelicals are going to be washing but people of faith all over the country and even briefly do non white evangelicals have a different view of Donald Trump. I think so. Certainly the the people of Color of faith and I've spoken to I think that the trump had met lord the the trump administration and more so his campaign has made At least a an effort Some great reporting and political about their effort effort to engage black voters. But I'm not so sure that that's translating in the Black Evangelical Community I I haven't seen sort sort of any any examples of that permeating in a real way and so then you have to ask yourself. Is that more sort of for people of People who aren't of color so all right folks who were uncomfortable with some of the rhetoric is that more about making them comfortable like. Oh look we're reaching out and more so a genuine less russell of a genuine effort to really engage a people of Color in the campaign. Michael a recent poll from the Public Religion Research Institute found around seventy seven percent of white evangelical. Protestants approve of the president. How vital are they to his base absolutely vital and if you ask the trump hmm campaign they'll say that they think they're going to increase their margin On a with respect to the Evangelical Vote in two thousand twenty but Here's another poll released just this week from politico and morning consult That said that forty three percent of evangelical voters would approve approve removal of the president from office. So the idea that very high number one would expect if there's such high approval of him right then. NJIT evangelical And to be clear a plurality still according to this poll Support his Support the president but the idea that the campaign can can simply take for granted Their votes Is is simply not the case and Entering this next election we should remember that in two thousand sixteen There were many questions over the president's morality and his fitness for office within that community. I think we're going to revisit that discussion and twenty twenty. We'll see whether it has the same or different result of course After four years in office Alex Jaffe Michigan's Attorney General has now backtracked. Don a statement that had announced a halt in the two year criminal investigation into Michigan State. University's handling of complaints made against now convicted victims sex offender. Larry Nassar a former campus physician and team doctor for USA gymnastics the initial statement from the AG said the investigation was suspended spended an AG. Dan Nestle now says that that was misleading that the investigation is at an impasse. But it's ongoing. Remind us what Larry Nassar was convicted victim for and what this separate investigation is about short. He was convicted for sexually molesting And a number of US gymnastics six women and one man and one man and also having Child pornography and so the the jail sentence he's facing essentially life in jail at this point So it's not necessarily a matter of you know his future and what's going to happen to him. This is more an investigation into into who knew what and whether there was any sort of cover up going on at Msu and so the issue at hand is the office was looking to get access to six thousand in documents. They were hoping to waive attorney-client privilege taxes those documents as they investigate you know the the internal workings in Msu but AH ATTORNEYS FOR THE UNIVERSITY ARE REFUSING to release those because they say that it could Undermine lawsuit going on that's involved in you know it's a case that the university has made against insurance to try to get the money to pay back these victims of Nassar So at this point. We're not quite sure what will happen next. Obviously the office is trying to go forward with this. They'd also like to Interview the interim president after the previous president vent resigned to is not being cooperative at this point but I think to your point the fact that the AG said you know this investigation isn't over. I'm still looking for answers suggests that we'll we'll see quite a bit more to come even let me ask you. MSU's governing board has actually dropped. Its own review into Nassar. Apparently apparently a move that has infuriated his victims. What is going on at Msu? Why wouldn't they just want to investigate? What campus officials might have known admit to any tailings adopt new policies? And move on. Well I think that there's some confusion on that because they they then said the communications director then so that was an error that they haven't dropped it that that it's not an impasse. It was more precise to say that it was suspended. Did I would say that. This entire episode sort of illustrates as in a lot of pearls. that it takes time right. It takes years to really get to at the bottom of what what happened. In these instances and even though the national conversation shifts there there is still a lot of have a lot of concern especially among the people closest to it that the truth ultimately comes to light and it's worth noting that the investigation that that is going on by by the AG's office has already resulted in believe three Prosecutions against three former school officials. Lots more could come out of this and it's why they're or not dropping it due to the obstruction from the school right the fact that Msu is holding back six thousand documents though makes you wonder why they wouldn't WanNa just sh- you know use is the disinfectant of sunlight get out there any problems and That might have been an announced proudly new policies and move forward right. I I mean it's hard not to say that the suggests there was some sort of cover up going on that they don't want they want to wash their hands of or or not to be revealed publicly. So we'll we'll see if those those documents are released and if any clarity is is possible. Ms Us President says that he's actually focusing on the results of investigations. That have already been done. So they are saying that they are not actually STU spending their investigation but focusing on on what they already know turning briefly to a troubling topic especially during the holiday season homelessness is up across America for a third year in a row. That's according to a new report report from the US Department of Housing which blames the uptick on the State of California. So Michael What does homelessness look like in California -Fornia Hud says it's up sixteen percent in the golden state just this year. That's a double digit. Surge what is behind the increase We'll well certainly if you ask the trump administration which is preparing a A paper White Paper paper essentially for the president recommending Some sort of a federal executive action with respect to the homeless crisis crisis in California. It has to do with You know liberal housing policies. That's what they essentially blame it on If you ask California's governor her Gavin NEWSOM. He'll say that They need more funding from the federal government to to to alleviate this crisis which she's not forthcoming so this is actually one of many fronts in California's battle with the trump administration and the president seems nice to have latched onto this as an opportunity to criticize California's government End To Lombardo them obviously other fronts include the EPA's gays fight with California over fuel efficiency standards and several other aspects of the climate change battle. But this is the this is an important important issue. Both for California and increasingly for the trump administration briefly. Alex how does the Homelessness Situation in California compared to the rest of the country is homelessness business on the rise or decline across the US in a number of states on the decline So the fact that the increase in California created sort of Nationwide Increase in and homelessness tells you how sort of significant is in that state And there are studies showing that it's actually you know Californians that are contributing contributing to this. It isn't folks coming in from out of state it's California issue so it's something that could take you know federal and State Corporation to address. Well that's something something that we should get a lot more time to talk about in the New Year and since this is the last news roundup of Twenty nineteen. We wanted to do something a little different to round out the year. We WanNa know from the three of you. What are the important national news stories that we should be paying attention to for the coming year of Peach men and the election of course but which stories should be on our radar but keep getting shoved off the front pages? Even you start well I would say. Provisions within the Patriot Act are up to be reauthorized in March. That is a massive surveillance bill. The largest of our generation Parts of it were quietly. reauthorized is in November while we were in the midst of impeachment and I think that's very very critical. Democrats said that they would have better leverage to negotiate eight over this in March but this involves our civil liberties it enables the government to access phone records on millions of Americans among other other provisions. Okay we'll keep. We'll keep an eye on that Michael. election interference. Not If but WHO. And how whether it'll be espionage influence election infrastructure. Meddling Alex Jaffe and personal privacy when it comes to tech companies. There's been some pressure on tech companies to update date their policies. But I think we're GONNA see more scrutiny on that going forward and it'll be interesting to see how the big tech companies respond that's Alex Jaffe of the AP Michael Wilner of mcclatchy. She uneven McKEN of spectrum news. Thank you all for your time. Today are lead audio engineer. Is Jake Cherry Gabrielle. Healy Chris Costano. And Saline Humphries Produce One as digital and on demand content. You can learn more about the team at the one A.. Dot Org will dive into the International. Our of the news round ended up in just a moment. Stay close support for this podcast and the following message come from the Walton Family Family Foundation where opportunity takes root more information is available at Walton Family Foundation Dot Org support for this podcast and the following following. Message come from the American Jewish World Service working together for more than thirty years to build a more just equitable world. Learn more at age. AWS ASKS DOT Org. This is one A.. I'm endear Lakhshman on in Washington. This week people. Around the world celebrated Christmas Hanukkah Kwanzaa and more more but even the holidays can't stop. The News. Protests continue to rock France India and Iran the US is weighing a total troop withdrawal from from West Africa and for the first time in more than forty years. Cuba now has a president and a prime minister joining us for the last Global News. Roundup of of twenty nine thousand nine hundred. Michael Goldfarb is the host of the first rough draft of history podcast. He joins us from BBC studios in London. Michael always a pleasure. It's a pleasure to speak with you. Indira Tom Goodman is a reporter with the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation. He joins me here in the studio. Welcome to Thanh answer and also in studio. Elizabeth Kennedy is Deputy International Editor with the associated. Press Elizabeth great to have you on. Thanks so much. So let's start with West Africa Elizabeth. I know you were based in Africa for the associated. Press varies currently a significant American military presence deployed. They're aimed at countering terrorist groups such as Boko Haram. But this week the New York Times reported that Defense Secretary Mark Esper- is planning to pull back troops from the region region. It's part of the Pentagon's shift of Focus and resources away from so-called endless wars on terror and toward monitoring our biggest adversaries including Russia and China. The Time said a decision on scaling back. Our presence in West Africa is expected in January. So Elizabeth tell us more about what American forces are doing doing in West Africa. And what would the decision to rollback our presence. There mean for the region. US troops are there to essentially train in assessed west West African security forces to suppress Islamist groups. There you know in this drawdown perhaps is a knock on effect of an ambush two years ago in Nizhny Zsa that killed For US soldiers. This really made Americans think we ha- you know. There are American troops in Africa. What they're dying? It became a little bit of a political hot potato and certainly it became a talking point for trump. WHO has tried to make a point of saying he wants to bring? US S. troops home and he wants to end these endless wars and there are some risks involved in this for sure For one it could allow these Islamist groups to of of course fester but it's also providing opportunity in some ways to you know to some of us some of US foes like China and Russia to sort of make nick inroads in terms of influence and Africa. So we'll be certainly watching not play out If the US does pull out. Elizabeth you mentioned this year In fact the Pentagon just recently completed a one hundred ten million dollar drone base in. Does that suggest that the Pentagon wants to get. US boots is off the ground and conduct anti-terror operations remotely from Las Vegas or wherever. They're controlling the drones. Yes I think that It is very important. I'm I'm for for us. Policy and for the trump administration and administration to be able to say that they're bringing troops. Home are getting troops out of their drones. Are Risky the and you know as we have seen from other conflicts and that they can be quite indiscriminate and it doesn't necessarily allow the US to collect intelligence on the ground But that is certainly One Way to do it. Michael President Trump took office with a promise to end America's long running wars. But we still have the same number of troops overseas roughly as when he took office. How do you see a pullback from West Africa fitting into administrations larger military military strategy and shifting now towards monitoring great powers like China and Russia How do you see that working out will as always we with this particular administration? You're never sure if This is freelancing by Secretary Cabinet secretary because because maybe he can't get a meeting with the boss just has decided to do this Whether there are some overall strategic view about how to deploy American troops oops I mean we should also remember in talking about West Africa that there's a considerable amount of fighting being done by French forces Much of West Africa is Francophone Francophone and the Foreign Legion is there. And a variety of other special forces units of the French army in fact think President Macron has visited the troops there from time to time. And you know it is entirely possible that there's been some coordination that The ideal the French can handle this. We don't need eight to have boots on the ground but there's also concern I mean In in today's Times here in London there's a note of Concern from the the British Ministry of Defence because there are also British troops in in the region as well. It's not just America out there and there is concerned that you know the US pulls all all the way back from west Africa it does make things extremely difficult for Just keeping the Jihadists at bay. I mean they're out there in the Suhel all the Elizabeth probably been close. And you see that you know they they can operate it whether there was action in Burkina Foucault Today. So so it's it's a simmering conflict zone and you know one would hope that that the US isn't pulling back Willy Nilly without at least coordinating a bit with its Western allies. Who still have soldiers there? Netanyahu I WANNA go back to this question of confronting China and Russia and whether taking troops oops out of West Africa would actually allow us to do that. In and in what way and related to that going into the twenty twenty election are we likely need to see more. US troops being pulled out elsewhere in the world and more focus on Russia and China. Who I'm sure I I know there are fears in the intelligence community could intend to interfere with our election once again? I think the issue is that we have few conflicting strategies on the one hand. If you listen to president trump he wants to end what he calls these Indus wars and bring the troops back home. The Pentagon would like to shift the troops from A. M. Barra's that they see as unwinnable or just going on endlessly without really many resulted speak up and shift them to 'em same regions or conflicts that could evolve further down the road such as Issues I will involve China as the main power there or Russia. Things that as we saw in the Syrian example basically when the United States isn't there there is no vacuum. Basically Russia is waiting being on the sidelines and was step in and in the same could happen also in west Africa in. We're talking about a small number of troops that are being considered The the pulled out right now several hundreds maybe five hundred more from Asia Molly but there is an importance of having troops on the ground. American can troops in the carry much more weight than their than their numbers. So even five hundred. American troops are a significant presence. They bring with them. The I intelligence logistics and the knowledge that America is involved in this Im- and fighting theater whereas once they're out it's open for everyone including putting the Russians all right while meanwhile in South Central Africa the US ambassador to Zambia. Daniel foot was recalled from his position. Following an escalating leading conflict with Zambia's president over gay rights. It started when Zambian President Edgar Longo defended a recent court decision to sentence a gay couple all to prison for fifteen years. We assume no homosexuality. Why should you say to be related if we allow it? I've seen only a little premature frowning. Even animals don't do it the. US Ambassador then criticized both the court decision and the President Lagos comments and his support for the decision Elizabeth. Tell us what happened next well. The ambassador was particularly Combative on this issue of gay rights and also on corruption. It's important that these two things In some ways are paired. They happened at the same time. the the US ambassador accused. Top officials in Zambia of stealing public funds. As well as you know jailing this gay couple in Zambia. They've really made a point of saying you know making a point of the LGBT Q.. Issue and saying this is the the reason why we want him gone and in a way that could be a way for them to basically get the support. Of the people in Zambia. It's a conservative Christian country. That is not necessarily a controversial issue the corruption issue however which foot also talked about could be quite controversial in Zambia. So so you think it was more of the corruption issue that got him recalled than the dispute over gay rights. Certainly could be There is a lot of talk about how you know. Really it was doc. Was the talk about the corruption and really calling out the corruption very in a very strong way he basically saying essentially you know. The Zambians are stealing public. Look funds and being a U. S. diplomat in a country as a two way street. There he saying that he couldn't even get a meeting with the president despite this. US Aid So there are a lot of issues at play there. So where do we go next on. US Mba relations and just briefly. EXPLAIN TO US why they're strategically important. Zambia is that you know again again. It's one of these Places in Africa where. US influence is very important You know America's global footprint is large and under the trump administration. There's been You know great retrenchment of diplomacy. So it's important for for the US to have a to have a footprint there but it's also You know where we go now is very difficult because you know the State Department has said. It's basically untenable now to have the. US diplomat there. So I'd like to turn to Saudi Arabian Natanz where a criminal court on Monday sentenced five men to death for the murder of Washington Post journalist. Jamal Kashogi three others were sent to prison. Three more were acquitted. One one person who was not held responsible for the murder is Saudi Arabian crown. Prince Mohammad bin Salman and his top aides who were implicated in in reports. Done both by the C. I.. A. And the United Nations Western media and human rights groups have denounced the verdict as a mockery of justice a laughable verdict predict so. Tell US Natanz. What do we know about the men who were sentenced to death or imprisoned if anything because as far as I know this trial was done in secret we know very little? There was no transparency in this whole legal process. It will the entire image trial was behind closed doors and we don't have a good sense of why why the these people were convicted exactly who they are in. Basically what we do know is that these were the lower level people who actually executed that the murder and the m. a. m. then their attempts to get rid of the body of it Jomaa sugary the people above them in a close advisor to who am Hamad bin Salman the consul general in Istanbul. These people were basically acquitted and had nothing to do with it and of course Mohammed bin Salman himself wasn't on trial and bears no responsibility. According to the Saudis to what happened in the embassy at the the time so basically I think there's a western consensus except for the United States that this was a cover up that they caught the hitman but not the masterminds as the UN representatives said afterwards and the in the Saudis. Hope that this will end the whole affair. They can return to their normal relationship with the world and with the United States and without the royal family in taking any blame for it. Well you mentioned that U N Special Rapporteur for extrajudicial killings. Her name is Agnes Calamar and she called the whole thing a travesty of justice she was referring going to both UN NCAA reports that did say that. The crown prince orchestrated or mastermind the murder and she's calling on investigators to look into the involvement involvement of the prince in the death. Here's part of what she told. NBC News about the verdict so far the reporting and the information formation provided by various authorities focused on on different individuals. I want to really insist that the responsibility of the state of Saudi Arabia is engaged into execution and there has been no demonstration that the state itself of Saudi Arabia as accepted responsibility for the killings. What needs to be investigated is the extent to which the crown prince knew or should have known of what would have happened? HAPPENED TO MR casualty with directly or indirectly incited the killing where they're e- acted without. What do diligence whether it could have prevented the execution when it when Domitian started and failed to do so so Michael I want to ask you given that Mohammed bin Salman is in line for the Saudi thrown in a country where the royal family is all powerful? How realistic is it? What this U Glenn? Special Rapporteur is calling for. Is it even conceivable. That the royal family or the government could face any justice in this case. No No. It's it's never been conceivable. And and the Washington Post for whom Jamal Khashoggi was writing Klum at the time of his murder. is has. It's done Yeoman. More to keep the story alive in Washington constant references from the opinion page editors about what's happened what to expect that. At some point there will be an honest reckoning and justice as you and I and an NPR listeners would think of it for Jamal. Crucial Jude's just unthinkable. I mean this is a futile kingdom. The crown prince wields kind of political power. That you know went out went out of fashion in much of the world centuries ago and there's no reason to think that he will ever that he will ever be put in a position position where he has to say. This is what I knew and I I regret it. And in a sense of my my recollection and somebody on the panel. Correct me. If I'm wrong. Is that shortly. After the murder of Jamaica Shoji his sons were were dragged out for a photo op in Riyadh Where they accepted accepted blood money by which means the sons of Jamal Kashogi and they were forced to do that? Photo exact exactly that. That was a photo of you. Know whatever forgiveness or anything and I think that you know that's the way the world works and I think sometimes when we talk about Saudi Arabia. It's very difficult to wrap our minds around. Just how this country operates because at one level because of the oil wealth and and you know the presence of the upper echelons of the Saudi Saudi Royal Family in our in our national life in Washington. You think well it's sort of like ours except you know it's a monarchy it isn't it's something entirely entirely different and people when the read about Saudi Arabia needs to remember that while Mohammed bin Salman is a close ally of White House. Insiders including luding jared Kushner President Trump's son in law and senior advisor and one of our listeners. Martha commented on facebook. This is a classic example of the US US looking the other way due to the benefits from the offending country. Money speaks louder than the screams of fellow. Human beings being tortured murdered and quietly disposed of all in the name of capitalism so Elizabeth. How has the White House responded to this verdict and is there any thought that? US policy might change now that this prosecution has actually been done even if NBS himself has not been held responsible. Well trump himself has conceded that he does not want this to upend the U. S. Saudi relationship. So there is no particular chicken sign that trump wants this to you. Know upend the Saudis by a lot of weapons. You know. There's a lots of implications for the global oil supply but Congress. Chris has been a bit the. US Congress has been bit stronger. This is the one place really were. Republicans have shown that they will sort of break with trump is in the foreign policy he space but this verdict in Saudi Arabia's suggests that this was an accidental or a last minute murder all evidence to the contrary including the presence of a bone saw which is one of the more chilling details so the question going forward meaning that this case trial in Saudi Arabia. which by the way we didn't have any access to in any diplomats who were there We're told that they were not allowed to repeat anything. That happened You know you're trying to say that. All the evidence that has been collected intelligence agencies and the United Nations show the opposite that it was a premeditated murder down to the people involved carrying a bone saw saw into the consulate with them right. So so as you're Listener mentioned it will be interesting to see if this trial will provide you know a pretext or cover for for the international community to continue on with business as usual for Saudi Arabia Or if there will be changes in their posture toward the kingdom and Elizabeth. Is there anything that the UN or any other international body can actually do about investigating M B s are holding him accountable. It's very difficult colt to to do that. This is a you know don't country. It's very hard to to provide that kind of investigation. I will say that the the wife of Kashogi I'm is calling for them not to execute these people saying that they have evidence That should be that should come out. So that's one way but we'll we'll see what happens in the in the next few weeks as this goes forward alright so elsewhere in the Middle East Saudi Arabia's arch rivals in Iran have reimposed an Internet blackout across several provinces ahead of services to mourn. Protesters killed last month. Natanz remind us why these protests are happening basically because of fuel. The prices have gone up dramatically in Iran around this struggling with the international sanctions led by the United States. After a May the trump administration ministration decided to break out of the IM- a nuclear agreement and reimposing sanctions and Iranians are starting to feel that and the fuel prices were basically the the last straw that led people out to the streets in massive protests across the country and the response of the regime was very tough talking. There's no credible information from there. But the numbers of people the protesters killed by the authorities ranges from three hundred fifteen hundred and there's very limited it access and that explains why they run ins in a so important for them to block the Internet because that's basically the only way for the word to know about what's going on there. These short videos from the scenes in the protests are very effective and that's why Iran before in the last rounder of protests. And now again. They're basically shutting down the Internet in order to stop these videos from leaving around and also to make it harder for the Iranians to organize for these protests. So Michael Wilda protesters be deterred by this Internet blackout or are they going to continue demonstrating I think you have to look at. Ah The local angle hair made. You don't need the Internet to go into the streets in protest and protest not just about the fuel price. That was as you know an ignition point. Take the metaphor all the way. It was throwing match on on oil lying about on the street. I mean the economy. Automate has been shrinking with shrinking before the sanctions Took hold and more than anything. No this is not the first time that people have come out in the street. They seem to come out regularly every ten years in Iran. But the real thing that's got people agitated is the amount of time the regime has spent involved in foreign adventures Shire's And this takes money as well. So the the attempt by the regime to set up a you know a Shia Crescent as we call it in the West from You know Iran going through Iraq and Syria and all the way into Lebanon. is Domestic politics doesn't necessarily approve of it. And you know and it carries on. I mean just over the last twenty four hours the next door in Iraq A new prime minister was suggested to the president of Iraq Barham Saleh. Who is a Kurdish politician? And he said no no this is. This is an Iranian choice. It's not an the Iraqi choice. I will resign rather than a point. Your the Iraqi parliament's choice of this politician who is a pre approved proved by Iran. So the the people in Iran are very very upset about this. They want their they want the regime to pay attention attention to domestic issues and the protesting. I believe will continue with or without the Internet because the anger for is that intense and there is a generation that's grown up since the last set of demonstrations in two thousand nine if you were a ten year old in two thousand and nine now you're twenty maybe a university. Maybe you're jobless what is your future. So you're into the street Netanyahu I WANNA turn to another story in the news. which is that Israeli prime minister? Benjamin Netanyahu has held onto his leadership of the Likud party after a vote. Yesterday Netanyahu will lead his party. In general elections scheduled pulled from March the third election in twelve months and although he won by a landslide against his party challenger Gideon SAR. This was the most serious serious party challenged. He's faced since two thousand and five. What does that say about? Netanyahu's for the general election in three months will first first of all it says that the members of the cooed party are willing to forgive and forget That all im- whatever Netanyahu has done on and there's been indicted for bribery and breach of trust 'em all these well-documented cases which have been deliberated in the prosecution for years. Basically don't penetrate the the base of Netanyahu within the Likud party. He won seventy five to twenty five percent margin basically and he controls the party which means that basically Israel is headed another stalemate in the next elections Israel will go all in March for general elections a third time within just over a year in the first two elections didn't result in any IM- coalition action. That could be presented as IM- could take over and basically with how as the head of the Likud were probably going to see more of the same that he could isn't expected to grow in the in the next elections neither are their rivals. The bigger blue and white party they will not sit in a coalition edition of a national unity government with Netanyahu as head of his party and therefore we're heading testament. Well I do want to ask you. Will these charges affect his popularity celerity in any serious way. And how will he fare in the election but also let's remind our listeners that Netanyahu was indicted on corruption charges last month. What's the latest on that? What's very long process right now? Netanyahu basically Netanyahu sees these elections as his get out of jail ticket to that his last chance that if he's a sitting prime minister he can't be imprisoned for corruption actually can but he has an option an of gaining some kind of immunity from the Knesset from Israel's parliament and that's his next move he hopes to win the elections to have a majority to pass some kind of an immunity mm unity In law or to provide him with personal immunity from these charges and that would basically take care of his legal problems. It's it's a long shot but he's trying that in any case the legal proceedings are going to be very long in. We're talking about a trial that may start in a year from now would probably probably go back and forth to the Supreme Court on issues of evidence that some people say that it will be six to seven years until the whole appeal processes done chances chances for the general election in March pretty much as they were before of being tied with Bennigan's the head of the blue and white party and with none of them having the the base either on the right or on the center left to form their own coalition. And of course this time he was able to do so but by a hair's breadth breath Do you see it potentially going the other way in March. It's hard to see right now There's really public hasn't shifted much. If anything will happen it might be some kind of an external issue such as a flare up on the Gaza border or on the northern border which might make raise either coalesce behind the Netanyahu now or look for another Another option there but right now it doesn't seem as if voters are shifting from one site to another Michael. I WANNA come to you about Cuba briefly where president. Miguel Diaz Canal appointed a prime minister. This week it's the first time there's been a prime minister in Cuba. In more than forty years the position was reinstated under a new constitution passed earlier this year. So Michael I briefly. What can you tell us about the new Prime Minister Manuel NATO cruise? Well Monroe cruise was until recently the tourism minister. And it's an interesting jump up from tourism to being the prime minister but before that he was lieutenant. Colonel in the military What's interesting is that the the last person was prime minister Actually was Fidel himself and then he did away with the position maybe because he had too many hats to wear who needed a prime minister. When you were the maximum chief of the country anyway And he's been appointed and I think this is just an example of the steps that The Cuban government is trying to show the world of getting to some kind of more like other governments in in and so on as emerges from the Castro. Yeah I mean now that we have the end of the Castro brothers leadership. Does this signify a return to normal politics constitution skit. Let's get some free and fair elections in there and some you know constitution constitutional guarantees of separation of powers. And all that sort of thing and Raul Oh Castro is still alive and the one thing we know about this particular kind the kinds of dictatorships run by families is it so long as this one of the founders is still alive then the power center that he commands is still going to be significant. So I think it's just interesting that they have chosen to make this. It seems to me a bit like gesture politics and the reporting that I've seen doesn't delineate any particular Competencies I'm sorry I cover the e you allot and competencies is a big word over here and it doesn't it doesn't it. What's he supposed to do? It's not entirely clear air. He's been appointed great for the first time since nineteen seventy seven There will be a prime minister of Cuba Someone for diplomats to say hello to when they go to visit all right well. Christmas in Paris struck a tragic note this week for the first time in more than two hundred years Christmas Mass was not held at the Notre Tr Dom Cathedral the iconic house of worship is still recovering from a fire that devastated the building back in April the blaze release toxic lead dust in the area and the Cathedral may not be restored for years Parisians also faced another Christmas time. Irregularity transit workers entered their fourth fourth week of strikes over president. Emmanuel macron's proposed changes to French. Pensions Micro had called for a holiday truce but to no avail. Thousands of trains were cancelled or delayed leaving many in France with no way to travel home for the holidays. It's not just transit workers protesting all all public center sector. Employees in France would be affected including the Paris opera ballerinas who staged a public outdoor Swan Lake performance to drum up for their cause. You can watch that video actually on our twitter page on one A.. So Natasha remind us what Macron John is trying to do with French. Pensions and how does this. Strike fit into Francis broader economic tensions. That began with these yellow vests protests more than a year ago basically Francis is dealing with the same issues that most of the Western world is in terms of pensions in the fact that they look ahead and we see that the current pension plans are are unsustainable and that basically you'll face a generation that cannot 'em cannot afford living in after retirement because these plans are unsustainable and macron wants to consolidate all the different there about forty pension plans in the Air France to consolidate them to one and to raise the retirement age to sixty four may sound like a reasonable symbol. Step but a lot of people will get hurt by that and you mentioned the opera about arenas in they said you know in our profession we retire tire in the early forties because of the specific physical needs of our job. We can't go on stage at the age of sixty four. While would this mean for us. There's a lot of fear and a lot of insecurity and that's basically what's driving out the streets that of course also resonates with the protests. We've seen earlier earlier this year. That kind of conveyed. The angst of people in the periphery that they weren't getting the attention. The services and the Economic Opportunities as people living in the bigger cities Elizabeth. I want to turn to India. You were based in India's well for the AP Over there protests continued this week over a controversial new citizenship law backed by Prime Minister. Narendra Modi protesters say the law discriminates against Muslim awesome immigrants from three majority Muslim countries. How does this law fit into Modi's agenda and tell us a little bit more about these protests? How how many people have died? The fear is that Modi is trying to turn India into a Hindu state and marginalize Muslims. That is the big picture that is what's in many ways driving. Having these protests this law would create an easier path to citizenship for every single major. You know South Asian faith except for Muslims and you know India's foundation is secular so this is seen as a real affront. The protests have been backed them. The Muslim population in India is so large. It's larger than some. You know Muslim only countries. As a matter of fact there are a few hundred million Muslims in India. Right that's the largest minority group and it's it's a it's a huge population. The protests have been a real challenge to mody at least twenty people have died but as we saw in Iran and in other countries. The government has restricted access to the Internet. So it's very difficult to really see the extent of it. I think looking forward the real real key to these protests engaging how significant they are going forward and how much of a threat to mody they are is that it's not just Muslims who are protesting. It's people I'm from across faiths and that is a problem for mody if we continue to see that trend that a a real cross section of Indian society is protesting staying at a time when the economy is sputtering. That could really pose a serious problem to Modi. WHO's already having? I'm wondering about the death toll because students is that many universities including Hindu students as you point out have been protesting this as an attack on the very foundation of India's you say as a secular state so it's not just about at the two hundred million Muslims in India. It's about the idea of India. Is there enough outcry over the law and the deaths of these demonstrators. Some of whom are you know. Teenagers or young college students that could possibly reverse the citizenship law while the High Court will hear a challenge in January. So we'll see what happens there right now. It does seem like the government was in certain ways unprepared for the extent and the breadth of these of these protests. So again you know the the the coming weeks are really important in terms of you know how many people come out and what happens in terms of these protests so again if we keep seeing you know a pretty broad cross section of of protesters come out than motive will really have to Find a way to solve this problem. All right also this week deadly Bush. Bush fires raged across across several states in Australia. Claiming two lives as firefighters. Were working to put the fires out. The prime minister was on vacation and citizens weren't weren't happy. Prime Minister Scott Morrison apologized on Sunday for his absence during this environmental crisis. Here's part of what he told reporters in Sydney after his return nine obviously returned from leaving that is caused some great anxiety in Astrid Jeannie and acknowledged that the time ever again a and you had the benefit of hindsight than would have made different decisions. I'm sure Australians Fair minded and understand that when you make a promise promise to your kids you try and tape it. But as prime minister you have other responsibilities and I accept that accept criticism and that's why Jillian. I agreed that it was important that I return particularly weekly off to the terrible tragedies that we saw Light light this week Michael Goldfarb. The Australian government has been criticized for climate policies in in the midst of these fires and historic heatwaves which scientists have connected to climate change. So what is the government doing to address climate change the formula that question in droves laughing because it is I hate to use perfect climate. Change Storm this happened against backdrop of Decision by the government to open up coal mining on there's massive coal deposits of every kind of deposits in in in the middle of Australia but in northern Australia in northern Queensland which is weird? They grow a lot of the the Graze their cattle. There's a massive coalfield just underground and the government has gone all in just before he went off for vacation. He said we're going to strip mine this area. We're going to sell our coal because you know we've got it and that's the climate change isn't real it's a hoax. And then he goes off to to Hawaii and gets caught there with his Surfer wear and while the southern part of the country catches fire in an unprecedented precedent. Way And these in the brushfires around Sydney the these fires are extraordinary and the only thing that makes makes it less less spectacular than say when you have these had fires in California a couple of years ago around Santa Rosa is that the population of the area of of the blue. Blue Mountains isn't so great so if only twenty thousand people are made homeless by this extraordinary fire then it doesn't catch the same kind of headlines Headlines But really Australia the current Australian government. It's I think it's the Liberal Party. But that doesn't mean they're liberal. They're actually conservative. Doesn't doesn't isn't agree with climate science and they're happy to dig up the coal and and sell it on to whoever wants to burn coal for energy. Well a problem not it just Australia but also where in the world of course disagreements over climate science and politicians whom it doesn't serve all right well. The Global News Twenty nineteen was relentless. And we don't expect any slowdown in twenty twenty. But we want to do something a little different and ask our guest today. What are some of the most important perhaps undercover international stories that they think our listeners should pay extra attention to in twenty twenty Elizabeth? I'll start with you. Tell me about some of the the best work that AP has done this year. That you think hasn't gotten the attention on the global stage and one of those stories that you know. How should we be watching how they follow in twenty twenty four I think a really key story that? AP has just done with a partnership with the Pulitzer Center has been a look at the global opioid crisis. There's been a lot of coverage about how thousands of people are dying and rich countries. Just sort of a wash in these highly addicted did painkillers but in poor countries like Rwanda where AP sent a team of reporters people are literally writhing in pain without access to these. What kinds of drugs that that are key to helping people Survive and just deal with horrible Cancer and all all of these diseases so ap really nice sensitive. Look at that I would also of course like the migrant crisis is not something that's going away in twenty twenty or beyond so so those are the two nother series that AP did with support from the Pulitzer Center So encouraging listeners to look at some of the big in depth series that may not have caught. Got Your attention at Tom. What's your big story for twenty twenty? We should watch you should watch everything And basically we even if you look at our conversation today. There's so many issues that the world ignore ignore as we touched on West Africa and they slam Incursions there we talked about the the rule in a AH Saudi Arabia. We didn't even mention Yemen. There's so many issues that the world ignores. I'd like to suggest one that we deal with. Maybe as an American issue but we should look at it. I thinking broader sense and that's the role of Internet companies in the high tech companies. And what will happen to them. In the next year it seems to be moving ahead in the chorus forest. And which in two thousand twenty. Maybe the year in which these companies will be forced to become accountable whether it's because of things we see in the American Political System System with Warren Congress but also on the world stage these attempts it to use or abuse social media in In countries like Russia it to block them in places like Iran or to bypass them and China. All these issues in will keep on playing a role and and since this is probably the strongest factor. That's impacting the world. I think we should keep an eye on Michael in the few moments we have left quickly. What's your one story? We should watch in twenty twenty. Well I know you're probably on board with you. Think brexit's over but it's not and the brakes we withdrawal agreement will will go into effect effect at the end of January to negotiate a trade deal. And you know for us over here in London. The big story remains what happens in November in twenty twenty in the United States. Because so much has been predicated on. Does he get a second term. Just trump get a second term because if he does then all kinds of adjustments I have to be made. I think a lot of a lot of leaders are saying we can make another ten months. We got this far. We can get till November but if Donald Trump is reelected than I think you you everybody should pay attention to see how the world reacts to that and I promise we will keep our eyes on Brexit. Michael Goldfarb is host of the first rough draft of history. podcast cast thank you so much Natanz. Gutman is a reporter with Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation. Matan always a pleasure. Elizabeth Kennedy is Deputy International Editor with the associated. Press great to have you on our podcast is produced by Miranda full more and Matthews Simonsen won a senior producers or Danielle night and page Osborne. This program comes to you from W. Amu part of American University in Washington DC distributed by NPR. Until we meet again. I'm Indira Lachman on executive editor at the Pulitzer Center. Thank you so much for listening and happy New Year everyone. This is one A. The.

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