20 Episode results for "Michael Francke"
Trailer 2 | Who Killed Michael Francke?
"They got governor say organ there's a force that's missing the murder of a high official Hilda man watched him die. I mean it was getting really really scary in Michael Frankie was murdered. She needs shish you found more than a few snakes and a lot of them are still out there premiers October twenty fourth listen to murder and Oregon on the
A Little Extra Spring!
"Good evening blue jays fans and welcome to another lovely evening. Jaybird watching excuse the partial technical difficulties there. The internet is being a jerk for a moment so anyway tonight hoping to get a little spring in segued our favorite baseball players back but i brennan panicker an corsair. Mike co-host how are you fellas doing this week. So that being said. Let's get to the main topic. George springer is back. Can we even. Are we shocked. Is this allowed. Are we excited. What's going on brennan. You kick kicking off hughes your Superman crush over the over the winter. So i figure it's good start share share. Yeah it's like kinda like opening day again yesterday Especially because. I didn't see first game because i was driving during the course of the game. So just listen on. The radio shows actually see it in person his return. He didn't do much for whatever just his presence in line of alone just lengthens it like crazy. I mean you look at tonight's lineup and there's only really two dead spots throughout the entire thing and that's because we're in nationally park robbie ray has to hit stupid nationally rules. Yeah it's it's great back there but it just feel so much more complete of a return this time because he's actually playing in center field where he's supposed to be instead of just being a d. h. signals to me i know ought to be asked the question last week. When you're hosting. How confident are you. Will he be here to stay for the rest of the season. And i said hundred percent. He's in centerfield. He's running fine and he doesn't have a history of injuries. So i this is just Game what five. He's played so tonight would be gained six game six of through the rest of the season and hopefully it just sparks the the entire team a little bit and so far so good. Yup adam what say you. I look seeing him in a blue jays uniform. It was one of those. I have to see it to believe it kind of thing because we've been down this road before we've been down this road of seeing him in the lineup and then You know it's usually not exclusively at d. h. I don't think. I think yesterday was the first time in center field for the blue jays. So there you go The person being in the national league park and he's playing center field there today. I was more impressed with the notion. At least the reported notion that he went to montevideo and said hey one through four has been hitting pretty. Well put me in fifth. That's pretty cool especially for your one hundred fifty million dollar man Being the guy right now being the superstar of the team outside of laddy can only do good things offensively for this team and you can tell that there's a little bit of a little bit of the not to use the pun overly here but a little spring and their steps with him in the lineup. It's a confidence. So hopefully this can get the ball rolling and who knows maybe hobie fifth for the remainder of the year. I mean that'd be weird. No one predicted that with the way simeon has been has been hitting throughout the year even though he's been on slight downturn as recently. You can't complain and one through five. That is deadly even if you want to include grischuk at six. That's still deadly so not bad. I i'm really encouraged by this. And hopefully this can do a little bit more wonders. Their often set has been performing quite well to that point. I'm sure you both are watching the game right now. While with alvar blue jays fans and listeners. That are out right now. Helping the enjoy the game with us this evening bubba shut this laced a nice ball down the first baseline line. There's a nice one double arnold single. He ended up owning bingo double of versus kind of odd right so quick. Yeah just shows how fast the feeling out to that ball. But to that. Point of having george springer back. I thought that was amazing that he was disgusted. Total leadership role. You wanted him to be a role player on this team and be the guy just for the fact that he goes you know what wonder four solid and like you said just that a testament to be that guy and be the leader of this team. That we are needing. It's one thing to have the guys that are the bows and all that kind of company but these seasoned veterans than ones that know how to win they said something during last night's broadcasts that Boggle my mind a little bit not how bad the astros were at. The beginning of george springer is career. He is one like sixty five percent of the ball games. He's playing through his career. That's fricking nuts. I know the astros were literally godlike as far as record there for three seasons. But don't forget they were the complete opposite of that. What seemed like a five year. Stretch in springer was involved in that immensely. He was the guy that was coming up that was supposedly the face of the twenty nine thousand nine hundred world series champions right to know that we have that in this dug out into this lineup is going to be something of beauty. I think as far as the blue jays offense goes but gentlemen. I'm gonna oppose the next question to you on. This point is the spring in their step. Gonna turn into an igniter for this team. Adam i'm gonna let you go. I sure I wanna say. Yes i really do want to say yes but you know not to throw cold water on the celebration of spring being back boat. This team isn't hurting for offense. You can put up more runs but to me. That's just a cry for help to make sure there's a lot more run insurance for bullpen. That actually hasn't been performing that bad. Since the baltimore series tasker spent kid has been immensely better compared to literally literally ready to start the thing on fire and start all over last week based got how outside of I think thorens outing against baltimore. It hasn't been that bad but will it ignite them into a maybe a playoff push. I don't think so i think. You need a splash. Three deadline to really do that. But this doesn't hurt. Like i don't want to take anything away from this is not a bad thing. I just think i wouldn't even call it a net. Even i just think offense wasn't the problem here. I'm trying to circle around the problem of solving another way right. Yeah brennan. I'm i'm with you a hundred percent out and it's Yeah until the bullpen levels out a little bit and gets a little more consistent which to tyler chat with credit. He has a lot better last year. Saying that will be huge boost for this bullpen. Chat would gets back to even half of what he was before. He imploded there for a couple of weeks office. Find the rotation stabilized. And i don't want to bury the lead but we can credit a member of the rotation for that in a way more so towards the bottom half so yeah the team. It feels like they're right on the edge of being able to take off and go on a bit of a run with some of these weaker opponents. But it's kind of like. I got to see it to believe it in longer term to your point. Adam about meetings a splash of the deadline. A splash at the deadline. Probably could have the exact same fat getting too low and david price did. I'm not going to say they're going to pretty sure. The wreck was what forty two and eighteen after the trade deadline when they got to david price. That's on yeah sickly like never losing hockey or football in the nfl. So i'm not expecting that. But could expect. I don't know thirty five thirty five to forty wins. Maybe after something like that. They've thirty five as a second-half thing to look forward to. Even then it might not be enough to get them into wildcard but as long as they're competitive the second half of the season and you know what if they fall short a game or two maybe even three games back we can look back at the stretch where the bullpen collapsed in all that different kinds of stuff and blame it on there but the good thing is this team is not near end of its core or their it's window it's at the beginning of it so it could be a signal of good things to come for the following years as well. I guess i gotta give you segue points now because you were you were teasing blue jays fans with where we're going with this conversation next and the fact is before i do that. Is they wanna wrapping. You're putting other notes in on the george springer. Fun nine just looks good bluejeans jerseys at the plate right now. So that's the reason. I had to give everybody that you know he's up we're going to have the highlight everybody throughout the rest of this piece. Here i guess he's got one count on them with a guy on second and third who one nothing. It's gonna be one nothing on. The weirdest awkwardly played frigging ground ball. The first base is seen in right. So good fun stuff. Hey against trump to because of all the rolling around by the first baseman aguilera. Unfortunately he kind of like a weird dive for him to go out that one and fielding the ball behind him and come back those law but anyway. Hey to rbi's for george springer right so anyways on that note let's talk. Ross stripling guys over last few of the stat here from the last thirty nine innings. He is a point nine seven whip and he's back under four in those innings z. Iran actually just under three point. Five in those thirty nine innings. That's still is lumping in one rough. Start where he gives up four and runs to the boston red sox but he has been very good over. The last two starts against the yankees. The marlins is the other evening. Are we ready to jump on the train. Here that roster. Lynn is clearly figured out something from his french Shea sadly telling him tipping pitches or or what else is going on here. Brennan believe it's your turn around with the ross stripling fun. Yeah he's been their best starter. Since may twenty four th and that's by almost every single metric starting pitcher. He's been better than review. He's been better than robbie ray and it definitely is a result of those mechanical changes made because there was that one where he kind of started to make the mechanical changes. But they weren't fully like i don't know if he was fully adjusted to it or he just wasn't used to it yet and then that relief outing against the race when he came in and through seven amazing innings on that monday. I know the series are still disaster but that was the start of ross stripling turning it around and you know that's how the story that successful teams have throughout the course of his season when they do go on to make the playoffs and you could go back and look at a turning point and again. I think we a couple of us said this before. The season started when we were doing some crazy predictions. That maybe ross. Stripling can be this year's marco estrada i guy was trying to start it in the bullpen and he came into the rotation probably around the around the time when stripling started to turn things around but the whole concept or the whole point of that is to say it could be very similar impact right. Can i mean another topic. We're talking about later. Not to keep on burying the leader or anything like that but the injuries Taking it slow with some of the younger guys and whatnot like thomas hatch and others let stripling ride it out and he's been fantastic and credit where credit's due out rushing one of those guys back from the injury exactly exactly out of run with. Tell me what you think about this. Whole ross stripling thing. Are you feeling good feeling bad. No i'm not feel mad. I'm feeling pretty good in look talked about this When was it when his last bad outing against tampa bay when you're just saying he has one more and to prove it and heat to his credit he owned it. That's the thing like here accountability from players. You wanna hear players saying no. I haven't been playing well enough. I need to make some adjustments. And i'm not i think from what i read. He was tipping pitches was like his mouth movements. Yeah when it came to a breaking pitch they picked up on and baseball players are probably fantastic poker players. But i just think that you know when you had that sort of Stability in your rotation by and large hasn't really been an issue at all. We thought the starting rotation was going to be something that needed to be interesting. Turns out kinda doesn't At least for now there's enough pieces to that puzzle right now. That is piecing together properly yet. What i used to get that next piece yet. S- probably but we'll talk about that a little bit later in the show. So yeah yeah you know. It's wonderful that we have someone that can pitch at least six innings right. I would like to see him. Go seven he has yet to do it. Austin this resurgence or actually since entire season he hasn't done it. But you know with the way the bulletin i know we just gave him some some credit although small sample size being what it is I'd like to see the starter stretched out a little bit. There's a lead in their favor in a stripling can go. I don't know six and a third or even seven do it. I mean he. His his pitch count has been increasing He's been having his control there and the pictures looked good. Pitching with confidence and you could. You could have a lot worse. Happened when it comes to your rotation to say but i'm at the point right now today injury aside that i'd rather see stripling pitch than napier's same that's gonna be a fun conversation in a moment. You both are all over this agenda. Just hang all over and itself to that point. I want on one thing here. That i notice in some of these stat lines and stuff sure we remember that you know the conversation where you were deciding with the innings. And did he take a step back because he wasn't getting ashbury barely the first in in some of those things as far as his longevity in the stamina goes this is a guy that was getting buried with three or four inning runs right in the first inning and a few starts to that point where he's even worked his way out of that crevice to the point where he's giving. He's giving up ten hits in his last three starts five watts and ease. Meanwhile struck out to almost twenty guys. Yeah that's pretty good. That's pretty damn good in three starts so the fact that yeah okay. The last one was against miami but that wasn't even his best star. These wants one was against the yankees who at the time in last two three weeks about actually been one of the better teams in baseball. They've seen found something offensively at least. But i digress. Roster playing held them the basically jack and spot so that be dead knowing that. He's going to be now paired in that ballpark here conversation with robbie ray review perfect goal than we can hopefully mail in the last two guys and eventually we're going to matt's back who you just read before we went on the air tonight. Apparently he is going to be missing next. Start which was supposed to be tomorrow. And we're gonna move My anthony case. Yep yep friend the brother show but anyway it's that that is what it is. Honestly i think cake and get us some decent innings and the bullpen has luckily had a decent stretch here regardless of who's in it to actually recover and recoup a little bit because they haven't been having to worry about covering eight or nine innings instead of just you know running with the three or four the end of a ballgame in so closing on tripling before we talk fight. Yeah he's been great. Yeah it's incredible seeing in the velocities ticked up a little bit too. That's important to note and these guys and nowadays better control the breaking ball. He just set up the breaking ball to be that much more effective. And that's probably as best overall pitch teed up. Yeah exactly relying on that pitch. Yeah hundred percent and as fast command on it back earlier in the season so he's walking guys given up palmer and whatnot so now. It's great seats. Nice turnaround somebody needs to dig. Chase is actually full-on legit a coach sir. Some minor league baseball team of any kind right now because the fact that apparently he's pick that up from just watching roster bling on tv. You know what the hell come on and say you know you're doing something right when you get checked for foreign substances just a pretty thorough check to. They made them flip belt on everything it was just like what the heck is on and he didn't have a meltdown like max scherzer See what happened. i'm waiting to see the highlights on trevor bauer when they harass inevitably two guests So or it's gonna be something really weird where he brings like the one guy that brought the nail file with him. He tried throwing it away with the buyer watching him. You know he's like that clown pants down like sergio mountain last night it was. It was an announcer. I'll get to that in a ballgame or sunny slid into the be's really really hard in phnom in the midst of that obviously got pounded dirt down his pants and then he's starts on bucknell his pants right there i based on the backup all is steve lyons when he was announced so but anyway moving along. Let's talk about this weirdness. That has now become a suspension for our manager and a five game pending appeals. In good fun stuff minoa for the bean. All incident happened over the orioles series and the fact. That was what two home runs hitting the same inning. More or less blue jays went from being in a two to one trailing two two one two five one in like five seconds. It seemed like and. I don't know how well it was actually minoa targeting Who is the the guy plunked. I'm sorry i'm blanking. I'm michael francke account count l. franco so in the midst of that i couldn't tell if it was intent not intent. It's amazing to me that they went after the five games. I get why it did happen. After home runs that tends to be the main defining line of most of those objections for pitchers especially due to being balls but the fact that there's nobody warned about anything after the fact but then again there was no incident until then. So why how. How and why. What are you been warning anybody. There's a lot of weirdness to what's going on there but as far as it goes right now we we add john. Schneider is the manager last night for the whole game so good. I loved it here for that. John schneider fan. So preview of things move. So that's why adams all fancy here because it is quote in term managership placeholder so in all reality. What are you guys. Feel about the suspension jerker justified. I guess we'll be the best way of saying it from major league baseball's commissioner's office. Do you think there was something there or do we. Are we all reading into this. Whole thing with minoan. I think the big thing drew toward and was the fact that he didn't stand down every to throw it he. Kinda did the all right. Fine here we go and walks toward the back. One hundred percent deserved sorry. Blue jays fans one hundred percent deserved. I get it. You're competitive. I totally understand. And you wanna stare into the where you could say you're staring into the glove but you're staring at a player and it's pissing people off I know door got pissed but who cares was it was wonderful. I fly all same. Anders got pissed And you know. I it i get it. You're you're trying to show that you're you're not just as rookie that can get pushed around. I totally understand the narrative here. But you know that sequence that happened prior who you plunking that player you gave up. Those home runs dude. That was on you. You know that they didn't do anything. There was no taunting. There was no foul play in between the pitches or anything. No bad yeah. It was called for completely deserved. I don't know that can really. This is the flip side of it. I don't know that you can judge someone's mentality right can you. Judge intent is based on the body language after the fact that he threw out at. Yeah you're walking towards the plate. Most people that do it by accident. They sort of like dos the mound and they give a little hat tip to the player. Like hey my bad i mean. It seemed clear that it was going forum. You're not there yet do you're just not and maybe this is just me being boomer about things and whatever but to me. There's just no place for that because you know blue fence editor defending them. If you flip the roles you would be pissed. You would be passed in. You would be saying this. five game. Suspension is justified. I think we're in the ballpark. I'm lucky guys five games. But let's get this right to the point where he can get his next starred. In call a day it's great with the appeals processes that weird in convoluted and all that fun stuff like that so brennan picking up and run with it my friend. I'm on the complete opposite side of the both. I'll take we opposite side first of all. Let's add up all the pieces of this puzzle here. Yes manila guy who doesn't have very good control. We've seen that where he just loses a completely throughout the course of some of his starts already second of all. Michael franco is a seven hitter. Who's absolutely dog shit. He's terrible he's not a good player. Why would you wanna hit him. There was no intent behind that and that was part of the game was actually able to catch on saturday and i was watching with my friends. Who is over and we both looked at each other. Why is my ronco getting upset here. You're not very good. You're a senator. And there was no intent there. It was just a ball of got away from noah. It happens from time to time. And i so the part that we don't know because concede on the camera is if manila was the first one to say anything whether he just stared in michael francke which it ronco trip back at them and then have that whole thing. Start who knows. I think the suspension isn't necessarily coming from the fact of him hitting him. It's more so the fact that he got right. The jerry meals face after that and was yelling out have been clearly not happy with them. That's where i think it went wrong for alec manila. The part that pissed me off more was the fact that charlie didn't immediately get tossed right after him. Because we know that john gibbons would have done that right there and then charlie comes in and tells alec get out of here go into the dugout. You've got tossed. I got your back. Charlie did not have his back. And i know mike wilders pooh-poohing on the fact all the time when people are like. Why isn't charlie getting tossed. There's still an element of that that exists in baseball. Where players want to see your manager. Stick up for you and then if you both get tosco have a beer in the dugout after that or sorry in the in the clubhouse after that and just hang out actu- let that happen again but no i'm on the total opposite side. I don't think there was any intent. Michael francke is not a good baseball player unless minoa said something to entice them. A stair walk on down to first base with no intent. So i don't know. He walked right up to the plate and took his glove off. So the after franck said something though it was so whether it was mino- who said something to get a response from franco. That's the part. I don't know and i don't think any of us now because he just couldn't see my camera angles that they had by. I'm gonna guess it was a stair that led to franco saying something which then let me know was reaction versa guy. That's clearly past his prime. To offs unlike nolan ryan. Verse robin ventura. Almost and i don't know if i know i'm not talking blue jays hidden history here but that's famous in baseball lore nolan ryan just destroys a baseball in on rally mentor after all was after another a White sox and ventura. They both locked eyes and bang done next thing. You know. rob nolan ryan's got ventura had pounded so it. I just couldn't believe how all of a sudden they went from what it looked like lot to me least trail out of his hand to all benches cleared in like bang done. It was just very quick escalated. I literally turned away from the game. And i came back because i was cooking dinner. And all of a sudden i was like holy sh- nike's what happened. So you know what the part that i understand is why up brandon hyde so heated after that because then he was getting out in london to go after a member on the blue jays. And i think it was charlie. If you're manager. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Don't you want minority stake in the game. Because he just gave up bombs. Why would you want manila. God like they probably gonna end up winning the game and getting a few more runs off if he wasn't toss so i don't know what the hell set off brandon. Hide is what is defending. You know getting riled up for his team. Which is what people vocalizing charlie not. I'm sort of circumventing the conversation back to the managerial talk. I feel like that if that was schneider. He seems to have that fire in him. That would be like. Let's go just seems like a guy that would you don't want to get in a bar fight with. where's charley. Like i could take him. Take no i honestly in the midst of that. I was surprised that we didn't get more bonus. John schneider quicker or even the fact that fact you know charlie ran out there but the rest of the manager staff was obviously clearly worried about mop up duty and clete keeping everybody out of the middle you know but there's some certain guys in that dugout. Even managers are in other coaches would have assumed jumped in a fire rate there to the players but is what has as baseball. Unfortunately and i'm gonna give him lisa credit if he was thinking about maybe sending her a little chin music. You know home runs a say. Hey how you doing. I wouldn't have agreed to fricken going after the guy beating somebody but some of this hardnosed nosed maple pro. I didn't really pay attention. Was he right on the plate after the two sons are. I don't know i wasn't that that wasn't doing that kind of detective work. So he's like as far away hoping wouldn't get plunked or something. It was always behind him. And that's why. I think it was intentional. Because it wasn't like an inside pitch that like hit him near the chest area right up here. It was almost behind him. And that's a telltale sign respectfully disagree with you runnin. That's all sign that your your head hunting. And i just. I think it's just a case of a rookie getting frustrated after giving up two bombs right and you got give credit. Look the one thing. I took away from the orioles c series. Maybe this because it's the blue jays and they haven't been playing that well. The orioles has bad. As i thought they were no fat but like manzini and mullins is it was great naked. Hit man recently too. Yeah and mountcastle celebre and we've been seeing out of him this season too. I think he's gonna be their star player in the very near future. I think he could easily be their new trade manzini. He's is not. There is like that little bit further down the line where he comes in and really takes the team and puts on his shoulders but Then forget about severino there. He's always been a eastbound away destroy blue jays over the years. I think he has his only three home run game in his career against the blue jays. A couple of years and they were talking about the actually. That was because patent the van. We're talking about during the game. The other night that he was last orioles player to hit three home runs in a ballgame. The building blocks man. The orioles do have some nice building blocks. There's still probably two three years away but Goods offseason findings or if you good trades and they'll they'll be competitive again in a couple years but hopefully they can beat up on them this weekend. Speaking of trades. Although maybe who knows. So i wanna talk in this next piece guys unless you want out at anything last two that the brawl the lack thereof. No good merit the Once again per what. Kind of what. Adam was spin wheels on a little bit already. Nate pearson is found himself off back on the injured reserve. And it is once again. The groin injury. It's back it's lingering whatever it might be. It's worse than it was before they really get into that. But are you guys starting to lose the idea that here that maybe nate pearson is actually hard core. A sure thing win in the near term. Elise injuries is he helping us this year or even next year with all this stuff. And the fact that he can't seem to get consistent innings going to even when he is healthy to you know. Get to that next. Stop most of the reasons. I at least think that he was up. This year was lack of options and they were hoping to roll the dice and get something like they have gotten from. Alec manoa This situation Brennan had lose your turn start. Yeah it it sucks because all the injuries are taking away precious development time for them. And i think they would have hoped that he'd be back up in the bigs by this point but and he was even struggling down the miners to like the. Don't let's enough war solves. It's not like he went right back down there after that astros starting figured it out again. It's a little worrisome. For sure but i'm still not their trade him. This trade deadline i got. I gotta waited as long as possible at the kid and see if they can fix them. They waited it out as long as possible with. Kyle dre bec. Because that was their big piece at the time that the gopher holiday and i was on board with that because he had to try i mean or else the roy halladay trade was basically awash. They really didn't get anything from the holiday trade. And i know you drafted napier sin. That's right we're a couple of years. He contributed for a little while. But i know that i know that pearson was picked that for for leaving a free agency but still yeah you got to ride it out even longer and you know what even if it takes another year or two for him to finally establish himself. I'm fine with that. Because i think we've seen what he can do. And it's am tantalize again. Tough to pass a bonner move on from syria. Not pulling the ripcord yet. Bucknell see some improvement somehow. Def definitely like if he comes back in a couple of weeks and he starts putting together again and he comes up. And let's say he's hereafter the all star break in buffalo or if they're back playing in toronto just as leagues and he has a strong finish to his season. That's enough for me to be like. Yeah that's totally fine with me. Adam what do you think. I don't think that i'm off the pearson train. I'm sorry i again. I know people are going to be like. Oh fuck you out because everyone loves their prospects that are blue jays fans and i get it but i i'm in a position now sell high so high. We boehner's were up for daniel norris year we had in two thousand fifteen and we ended up trading them for david price in a package. Everyone loved him. You know living in a van cool. Spring training was great. Whatever any turn out to be nothing really. Nothing and i'm not saying pearson's going to be nothing. But once he this many injuries this frequently. It's an automatic red flag. And i think the blue jays would be wasting their time trying to force development and forced to force a role for him unless he can come out of this groin injury in have consistent innings and they bring them up as a bullpen piece. Fine but i don't see him as a starter he firm right now. We had this conversation. I think in the last year or the beginning of this year when we are asking ourselves if he was injury prone that he is i. I'm sort of at the point. Where i think he's going to be an injury prone pitcher and having logging numerous innings as a starter. If that's going to be his role and we're relying on them to pitch up to a hundred pitches that if he does solidify that rolling he constantly gets hurt. That's going to work at the blue jays detriment right and we can't hippie fishing for starters at this point so i'm at the point where if he's included for in a package for something substantial coming in return even if it's a rental at controversial but even if it's a rental starting pitcher in nate pearson is the centerpiece of it. I'm okay with it at this point. Yeah i'm starting to get more and more into your cool eight level there Adam desist mostly. Because i'm gonna throw a couple names out here as far as blue sky. Were supposed to be good and we didn't really get ever see the best to them. One of them. I don't know you know if you guys remember this name. Show we trade a shit on prospects for jason beret from the chicago. White sox bass pitchers in their system and the blue jays were hoping to get him. The land lineup there with clements hank ginn and company there that late part of the seasons right and it looked like things. We're going to be awesome. Kid had tons of talent and then he literally went on a three year binged where he just couldn't it was either the arm the leg head. I dunno whatever it was. It was a million things a laundry list of issues and he never got on the field for the blue jays outside like one relief. Start or something it was saying it miniscule the other one. I'm a throughout here. In is an offensive comparison but it was the same thing we were expecting. Great things for them and when the blue jays acquired him and it has never happened. Corey kaczynski yard stick. It was he did something to his knee that for the knee was quote unquote fix the hamstring. He blew out or something like that. It just literally was like a snowball effect down a hill. It just kept getting worse and worse and worse for them and i. I do think that this year is. Problem is literally to spend the It's been the growing problem all time. I don't think he ever got healthy and not trying to make excuses but he he had to hurry up and do something after that call up at the demotion and just had grind out. He's i don't vegan. Tell anybody or maybe he asked a big guy. I can handle it. They call me big nate. You know so. But i don't think he ever really was healthy any of the season outside spring training. And i think that's where we're seeing that he's just just like george springer. I just had to go back to the. I'll i have to finally get right to save my season and i think that's the step that right now right now. If that's what happens and he does save a season great. I'm all for it. He's going to be a great blue. I i still have a confidence that he's doing. A great major league pitcher bucknell with what's going on with the blue jays. I've gotten something out of alec manila eyebrow. I never expected him to be up the blue jays uniform at least at this point in the season. I don't think anybody in major league all fun or even goofing around with us on this show could have predicted that alec manoa would have been this successful at this point this season where you would have assumed that he would have been a break. In case of emergency situation for the season after the all star game would be what i would have put it if you had to so to that point. You've seen him step up. You've gotten ross. Stripling to be something salvageable and you still have stephen mats. And then obviously we have ray in review. So that's piecing together like we were saying it's taken a long time to get there but there's something to it right now if this is the tipping point for the blue jays getting the big guy that they need to. He is their number one prospect in their system regardless of all this stuff. That's going on every team in the baseball or foam at the mouth to get a guy at throws the ball this hard and thank you know what maybe the blue jays did something weird we can tweak is something can fix them. 'cause the talent is just so ridiculous he is still one of the top ten prospects in baseball regardless of all this injuries stuff and if that's the difference right now for like atom two analysts saying if that's the difference between the blue jays meanwhile push this thing over the now game on. I don't even care what happens. I agree yeah. Yeah i can't i look i don't want to belabor the point more but how many times we been foaming at the mouth when it comes to pitching prospects. How many times like iron sanchez came up. But it was only for like a year year and a half stroman was great. He's the last pitcher that the blue jays have developed at his actually panned out and he's playing for someone else. Before that doc. Rick ricky romero point you know a year for year. He had an all year. And that's it we we've been dealing with. Sean hush sean markham's in see souls and they're not players that you can you know tie around for an organization and i'm not saying this is like a organ maybe it is systematic. I don't know but when it comes to need pearson. I'm just not seeing the consistency. You can have all the talent in the world and sometimes it just doesn't translate the big league. He's he's borderline off. Quadruple a player right now. That's all i'm viewing them. I can get on board with the moving him. This deadline as long as as long as he gets something with control back like a marquez. A luis castillo. Something like that. Because if you don't move nate pearson and this continues into next year you're not even getting a rental next year because the value is down from where it was last year at this time and even at the beginning of this season it's down because of how inconsistent he's been at the bigly level in the injury so you're already kind of selling low on if you moved them this deadline you'd be selling even lower on. It doesn't improve next year if you make that decision to trade him then so right. Yeah i i just would be so terrified of him putting it together as soon as he leaves. Because we've seen this happen way too much and are about every with you on that part full heartedly in that. I'm like sixty forty that if we got the right thing right now on train them. Yeah so probably the big thing in my opinion watson the minor leagues and stuff like that. There's been a great resurgence of pitching in our minor league system. There is a lot going on outside of nate pearson alec mandela in this system and they're still might be even better things that khamis they still haven't seen eric pacino really back fall volume up all kinds of stuff but zac logo. Most republican no hitter the other night most blue. Things don't even know who he is. He is amazing. We haven't seen really what joing murray can do. There's these guys that are still in that ballpark of being promoted. That if you traded in eight pearson somebody slide in. That is probably in the ballpark of raw stripling. Currently that would probably be good enough to have anchoring the bottom of your rotation. that is the reason. I'm not terribly scared about it because we have re you under control. There's no way in hell. They're not gonna some fine away to keep robbie ray after how much good he's been doing bright and then you have stripling for i think another year of arbitration after this three is right there that you're talking about centering around your rotation you're going to need to other guys. So that other guys traded to is acquired. Through a trade with nate pearson. I'm fine with that because that's that's some team that's maybe one or two years away the big win for them getting somebody like pearson and we might get the guy that they don't really need right now but he's really damned good marquette's looking at you rockies get it over it if let me toss his back at uber and if you had the opportunity i know like the fear of him panning out elsewhere. It's always going to permeate but if you have a crystal ball and you said okay. Let's we always use max scherzer because you know maybe the nationals trade away only to resign in the offseason find them with the detroit connection he was so i really came out even more national right. If we if we trade for a max scherzer and crystal ball says we win a world series but nate pearson ends up being phenomenal for the nationals. Oh i'm totally taken. That of course take over baseball. Yeah i mean. I wouldn't want the guarantee of the world series. I mean obviously be great if they made the playoffs this year. But i need a world series of return. Live two thousand fifteen types thing like sort of highly since you take that god after the season back dana crisis gone to and we gave up everything. If everything goes through of what you just said with pearson he goes onto could have had max scherzer again for another six theaters. But maybe that's the thing like you take the bird in hand and who's to say that the blue jays don't outbid the nationals or any other team they have money who's to say that they can't even make david price and offer. That's the difference here. Like maybe they come aggressive that matter and say you know what african development for pitching saux so you can make this train. The firstly you know yeah you know. I just think that when you have the opportunity was using macs or again as an it'd be anybody. But i'm just at the point where i'm trusting my eye when it come in ears when it comes to the injuries what's successful. Pitcher that is lit up has gone through this many injuries this early in their minor league career. I can't think of any right. And maybe he's the anomaly. Maybe he's the one that breaks the mold but chances are he and mold comparison. How awesome did we think ryan rocky was gonna be yet years ago. Ream through our minor league system. Now he can't stay healthy and he's in our bullpen. It could be that same kind of story all over again. I don't think it will be just because of what really i think is going on with his unfortunate his groin. But it's it's that it's there and blue jays fans are aware things and if it's a difference getting like we were saying somebody we know that's good right now. I think that's the big kicker it's so it's tough. I mean where i am. And i totally respect where you guys are two on the different ends of the spectrum and no matter where blue fans fall on on the everybody out different opinions and there's a very valid case the end of the day to your point adam about the injuries. There is a reason why they wanted napier to make as delivery less violent because they could tell. The violence of his delivery was contributed to some injuries and maybe met messing around with his delivery has contributed to some more injuries as its gone along because he's had to change the way he's pitched his entire life so it's a. It's a tough situation with this kid right now because all it's there the like this right there one little things that can stay healthy and he can be that as that we want. You'll transit just won't happen. That's where it's so tough. And like i said i think the promise brennan right now. That is literally fifty fifty conversation. There's nothing it's gonna go either way and that's honestly why on completely happy either direction at that situation goes i. I truly think he's going to pan out. And i don't think that's going to be a problem for any major league baseball team. I will have to see it in a blue uniform but like we were talking about here if that's the difference in getting that key piece for the next couple of seasons to make us the playoff team and have it almost a little bit more regard than fifty fifty. Yes okay all right if it's marquez. Yes so that. I would do it this deadline. If it's i know castillo struggled this year we talked about him but again. He's another guy who you can get right back up there and be pearson as louise castio sell. Yeah i could be talked into that. Yeah for sure. So anyway before we go any further closing camps because i know that was a good one i like the healthy disagreement disagreeing with you for a second always disagree or agree segment every single week just to get the juices flowing a little bit. That was fun of the show. People tweet. I'll use read adam. You're getting your. Wwe stuff outright from l. Else going to be that guy crab seat belt hanging up usually where we're in the more the bowl ballpark stone. Cold steve austin drinking beer on the show. I guess you know you're gonna frigging brad heartened enough this mess with people right i'll sharpshooter. It's not like i i will. I knew you had them around their awesome by the way so talking trades and stuff and a guy that as far as we're going to segue here into another quick one here and i don't know if you guys have noticed it was a great article blue jay nation today of for a resurgent. Kevin smith mind you. This is a guy that has been literally on the top one hundred process. He was a former blue jays. Fourth round pick got off to an insane tear like fernando tatis flat junior level at the early stages of his minor league development. It was slightly not there. Were points where boba shot in. Kevin smith were being mentioned in the same conversations in lansing in vancouver to the obviously since. Then those who have went very very different path. Kevin smith has nearly fallen off the planet and even almost to the point where he's barely on the blue jays top. Thirty prospects bad regressed however keyword however right now he is batting two eighty six in the For the trenton slash buffalo thunder blue jays. So but he has been on an absolute tear over the last Plethora basis and. This is the big thing that he's finally got max doing. He's taking pitches. It's to the point where he's looking very similar. How and saute oscar hernandez at the plate flailing and everything or even as recent as this year randall. Grischuk is finally taking some pitches and letting the ball travel where he can just absolutely destroy it as what is going on for kevin smith. What do you think there is a place this season or in the very near future with the jordan. Roshan's the juniors and all that we have in our current lineup. For somebody like kevin smith in this wrote in this because right now he's more or less playing third base for the triple eighteen or is this. Another guy is lumped into that ballpark. Here with nate pearson. That pushes a trade over the top. What say you. Mr corsair trae century. There's all kinds of trade eight. You're putting them in a look at the middle unless he transitions to second and simion this team which that's just a lot of work. You busy visuals in probably back there next year. If he's not traded you have groshans already to at third probably season bows going to get an extension. It's just going to happen. Where are you going to put them so far this. He's been d. h. Third base and shortstop he has played a good amount of second base in his career as well right now he is basically kevin gio or joe panic so obviously we know that joe on me now kevin beija was not going anywhere unless he ended up getting traded for some reason. Joe panic however is he. Better than joe panic. Yeah i would meet my argument for now. He has a world series ring so to me. It's veteran presence for somebody with a possibly a good upside and if kevin smith is hot hand right now on that kind of thing. You have a barely major league contract with joe panic together here. Is he that piece. That takes you further or as kevin smith i guess is the more or less where the guys this article went from blue jays. Nation dot com. I just can't see him playing this year for the major league. I just don't see him being a blue jay this year. I if i'm being honest i'd rather keep espinel at third defensively ball room but he's clearly the best defensive third baseman. The blue jays have question but to me. I just don't see. I think this is just them. Trying to showcase what they have to people for trade offers. And when you have that much death in the system we've talked about this ad nauseam about you know the the conveyor belt of so much positional depth that this is what it's use for us so liquid is and liquidate rather to get assets for that can help better your major league team to make postseason run. And if kevin smith's a casualty. In that i don't really know anybody that's going to substantially miss him that much. Groshans knocking on the door especially kevin busier. Reclaim second base or the resigned simeon. An bobek has the extension which he probably will. There's your infield what do you what do you need. Kevin smith bore at this point. At that point we talked about this over the last like basically the inception of this show. How much middle infield talent can you really hort. Yeah i'm with you a hundred percent. I trade them immediately. Because i think a couple years ago i remember. We talked about this. I think adam it might have been joined full time or maybe it was a year that atkins was talking up. Kevin smith like crazy winter fest a couple years ago and he went onto slump crazy and that's of allow exactly which is terrible so now. He's kinda reclaimed that form that made them gush over him and to your point. There's so much other middle infield death right now. I'd rather ride with aspinall's well. I think he's the perfect twenty-fifth manner twenty six men on a bench kevin smith in a trade for sure and sell high on him. Because that was the whole debate that we're having was oscars breakout for real. Yes it was. They made a good choice. Keeping him and not trading was rowdies breakout for real clearly not is regressed back to the guy that he was a couple of seasons ago and they didn't sell you when they could've so hundred percent sell kevin smith and maybe maybe zach lowe is another arm that you can use as a high candidate because there's so many arms in the in the minor leagues right now that you can consider moving for for trade set so definitely he's a. He's a trade chip in my mind. Talk while you're at it too. There's going to be a catch. I really don't see how avoiding it. Because here's the other wildcard on that thing. Have you guys seen how gabrielle merano has been playing. Yes yeah out there on that point. We're talking about selling high right now. Then maybe not kirk. But i'd rather keep marino on the minor leagues to fully develop and have mcguire and sell geno. Like general to me is a net negative. I don't i have lost faith in him. Trade to is backing. Kirk reese mcguire. Split and janelle is the fine with it wasn't wasn't gabriel marino. Playing third base the other day or somewhere on the other being smart dude. Yeah yeah man. Yeah it's fantastic. This love hovers teller making these kids so that they can sell them high so absolutely worst case scenario where all of a sudden nobody left at third base and he can play third base around with that so But yeah. I tend to agree with you guys that he's deaf. It's a great story. Honestly i will give you the ballpark that he might be a better player to have than joe panic on our bench. But i agree with you. He's not not looking better than kevin visual. obviously santiago. Espinel has been doing a great job with the back to the point where he is obviously carrying his ridiculous winkles. It's very johnny mack to me. Just playing yes. As far as comparison level. So kevin smith does have insane league gold glove. He is like. I said a short stop by trade. He's been playing a ton of third base over the last season's obviously last year beyond the taxi squad and whatever he was doing but i agree and this is one of those situations that is insane coming out party for him. This season for the level of offense at allowing for him compared to the last couple of years of in his minor league career. I really hope they can make something out at one way or the other because he has been very talented and completely hit a roadblock and divine somebody to come out of that whole thing. Those are the players that usually are locked in for the rest of their career. You know roy halladay hit that brick wall came back monster things like that. You know usually hear those stories where they can completely derailed and they found it and everything's wonderful so it is what is let's talk really quick before the end of the episode. Here's where guy once again. I remark law. Because apparently i'm the blue jays are still up to nothing so we're good. Let's to series the orioles in the marlins. Blue jays did lose a good one to the frick in Orioles where they got a little dusted and things were continuing to look like the ship was sinking. Sorry lebron they found it and they came back the next game and they have carried that success since and into this evening wherever they are obviously playing right now with robbie ray and george springer evens back so boom but guys takeaways from those two series. Be like what scares you. What kind of things are we seeing going on here right now. And blue jays. Fandom debra either. Yeah yeah hot. They have saved their season by coming back and winning that game saturday because i turned it off after they hit the two home runs off manila and he got tossed. Screw this going hanging outside. It's a nice day at friends over so wanted to hang outside and whatnot. But what i checked and saw that they came back and tied at seven seven and took the lead. I'm like okay. That's the kind of win where you can hopefully start turning around your seasons like okay. We didn't drop even further below five hundred. We did lose the series to a team. We should be beating and star is on the horizon of coming back from injury So yeah we're able to right. The ship on saturday and win the series on sunday the bullpen has somewhat flattened out a little bit and gotten a little more consistent over the last which is good to see. Hopefully this is the sign of things to come off three facets of the blue jays the bullpen and the rotation and offs for the defense can come together and they can go on a little bit of iran before the all star break. Because we said last week when it was all doom and gloom. This is their chance to have a nice little run and get back in right before the all star break so. Yeah it was definitely worrisome. For a little bit that they were going to lose again that would have been what six straight losses and in pretty epic fashion in two games against the orioles. So yeah i think they may have saved their season and if they do go back on and get back into the race if they make the playoffs you never know you might go back and look at that comeback baltimore this past saturday as the turning point from the season be amazing so again watching i was asking myself are the blue jay especially after the loss in game one are the blue jays not as good as we thought or are the orioles better than we thought. I think it's a little bit of both and now that spring is back. I think that sort of lean towards the blue jays being better. Obviously but again. I walked away rather impressed with the orioles. But i also walked away. A impressed with the resiliency of the blue jays. Know that scuffle. We've talked about that. Might again bring some fire moving forward. Maybe i think that's more rookie growing pains but you know we already talked about that. To death the bullpen shown some life. I still would like to have some reinforcements and makes me uncomfortable. But at least romano looked pretty sharp again. Meza had some good stuff at various points. Thorne was a little bit rough chat would look pretty good They just need to to continue that trend and hopefully we see more april bullpen than the the may into june bullpen. I mean these are teams. You should be clamoring in should be clamoring to be in. Should be spanking right. The marlins up and coming. They're not that good. The orioles like we already evaluated them. These are games that are prime for the taking so take advantage of. And what are we got. I don't want to bury the lead but we got Baltimore and seattle coming in the next. Yeah those actually gonna run with the all those in buffalo Yeah no yeah. Yeah that's right. I knew the seattle was for the candidate candidate. Slash fourth of july celebrate. Go right so yeah you need. Go on this run. Take advantage of these. Sorry no no no good at a ten or eleven game homestand. See you gotta win almost every single one you need to take advantage against the teams that they're playing in that because there's gonna be a blue jays game for those it's not gonna be the yankees coming in for the series against the mariners to say. We usually invade the mayor ballpark. I'm not seeing them invading ours all regard especially with technical. Yeah was that acidy to faceting. Yup and that it's going to be benched. I'm still looking for tickets across number two. I'm ready to go and a half away from me. And i still am tickets. It's just insulting. So but to that point i think the the biggest takeaway was. Obviously the kitchen continued to work while this past week but the bullpen found enough to get going some of the things. That still shocked me though. How jekyll and hyde can patrick murphy. Ben in the one earning that he had he looked amazing for one batter than was rough. Rough amazing amazing and then got destroyed so i hope good things. Were patrick murphy. So but in all reality. He was part of their plans. I think so. I think they need to find a way to get these guys. Get back. But do your point remodel. Look good. And i think that's a big thing right. Now for the blue jays as far as getting some good quality innings out of the bullpen. And the fact that they can stretch it into those guys. The big bigger names in right now is key so going into next week. We are finishing up the series against the marlins tuesday night and we are once again be quote unquote not so bad baltimore orioles. According to what is by percents better. Than what i saw isn't in the ballpark. You did not as bad. They can hit their on your scouting radar mullins upset so and then we play the mariners That like i said that's going into the holiday weekend and whatnot so adam. How do you think this week's shape up as far as record and what the blue jays really look for this week or what are they gonna continue doing well. We already gave our predictions for the miami series right. I think we talked about that last week. So heading into tomorrow. Four games against the orioles. I'm going to be a little conservative about it. Because like i said they can. And this is a minor league ballpark. I'm gonna say three out of four nine. We're going to go a split rails that'd be embarrassing mariners. I'm going to what call up. Eases twenty nine hundred thirty s you gary. Cough candidate Just don't and again. I don't want to. I'm not trying to draw heavy mortars and stuff if anybody are from buffalo is going to candidates candidate game just know that it might not mean a lot to you guys but this means everything to people in canada so make some noise and just go get in wasted and make it just fun make sound like a home field advantage for god on you know. Just just have a great time and do it up and again. I'm not canadian. So i can't speak for it but i know going to a candidate game. Canada i know what this means to blue pants or just make it fun. So i'm gonna say three four two three go greg. Me of ron. Didn't you go to a candidate game once. Yeah said okay. i'm sorry. I thought you said i didn't hear that you did it. I thought it's not like you know about it. But my favorite was the weekend though. Because i actually went up for that candidate weekend where right holiday came back as affiliate for the first time l. unites the following day when he pitched yes kinda went boop gone when i was a good game. That's right we have mentioned that before so all right so. I'm an saint ballpark. That i think what's going to be a winning week and the needs to be a winning week. This is there's this could exactly be the make or break for the blue jays season and honestly guys. I really will be shocked if we look back at this week. At the end of the season and saw that minoa fight actually wasn't a catalyst start the ship regardless who was right and who was wrong. It was a fight that lets some asses off anyway. Picks the collect fellas last week brennan. You had was did you. Give your prediction. Spread sorry exit train as you guys gone right. So Brennan you had robbie ray app. You had the vladimir. And then i marcus semi and so we went. We went bigger. Went home last week. Jay stars all stars literally right there on the paper. So i guess the question is who really stood out they all had good weeks not robbie ray robbie ray was a little rough but i think this is. I think i think adam's gonna end up taking another one here is i. Don't think semi and detaining the last week to really make me think that he was better than vlad vlad dp simeon homered went saturday. First-pitch yeah yeah it was really the big highlight of the week right. It wasn't like he ran away with olive runaway week. Yeah and i. I was glad week even the past week too. But i think he's still ended up tattoo into in the i think so yeah. I'm kind of ballpark. That li literally beats me to home runs to one. I'd probably give it to vlad. I can't even think of yes. Simeon was a little bit pedestrian accel. Which is still a good week for him. For simeon's for the baltimore series he had Eighteen at bats. Three runs two hits. Yeah it's not that great to home runs. Is one walk strike so yeah. Not the not the greatest. I was a little actually pretty underwhelming with a one eleven batting average. So yeah yeah. It's like you're trying to find a way for us not to give it to you this week. Stop looking at numbers on just can really. What alert the media so to put that into perspective brandon. Because you had your off week with robbie ray stealing from chris. You're three wins a piece now. And i've been on if i follow any kind of my pacing. I better win this week. So is what it is but it's five to me to you both three and we have one gusts bonfire so resurgent five weeks ago in three and two for mr corsairs. Put him back in the running. That means that i get sick. I go adam. I was thinking about this. Can we make it a rule not to pick this person twice in a row cannot be rule. Because i'm all felt like we did that. Rule but i think everybody was falling anyway. There's oddly enough. It's not robbie ray. Yeah yeah he could guess wildcard All right so. I'm gonna go george springer on. I'll be honest. I was not thinking him but That was that's a good pick now. Think about it. Minor league ballpark george springer. Let's go totally boom craig. You can go well you technically would. Yeah go ahead okay Hundred and i think it will only get one start Between now in next week wednesday. Auriol's yeah i think that's a little bit of a call cheating but same time i'm expecting seven innings of maybe one or two runs and if they win that puts them near the front unless springer whoever you pick craig. This has an incredible week. So up for i knew. He has a chance to have a runaway week with the fact that he could just throw run one hitter over seven innings and just really awesome as it out right now i got. I'm really tempted to say reese mcguire to be a dick back. Talk about a hot hand in our lineup. He's the single everybody to death but still got in a win. Yeah yes oh. I'm gonna go i have. I have shot all season. So i'm gonna pull out this week and make sure he hopefully gets me back on the war here. How often been picked this year. I feel like not too. Many people have picked them actually brandon not picked him. Yeah i did. And maybe and that's why you sucked. I'm skinny kind of like three times of the front. Yeah swing path or he had a monster april. Didn't he have a really solid. It ever get april quietly good season and it's starting to get louder louder as then so it's not like it's been i think though has ever really had a tear where it's been like a week or two of just like holy shit this guy's carrying the team. It's just of like steady. The entire the entire vladi has been carrying out and then semi and has been on fire all season so in the midst of that. Bogut that you know. That's ridiculous one-two-three right there. I don't care how any way look at any baseball mind is gonna look at our one one through four right now. It'd be like wow t. Oscar has had more of a like kind of season than than than boas has springer can get hot then bowl can comfortably just cruise as like the fifth guy in the offensive. Just being steady and good like i. I saw the other day for over thirty years one hundred. Rbi and the third best season for a blue jay shortstop f. only behind twenty mantas two seasons. He's having himself a nice year. It's just been kind of quiet. And meanwhile to your point oscar hernandez has been all over our board so far for the picks that clicks. And he's putting gary. I'm the i'm just going to say. He's a very dzhokhar. Ask season together. It's not allowed. It's not bad it's just. Hey i'm driving and in the runs scoring a bunch of runs. It's been a solid season for day oscar hernandez so far. So yeah and that's hey. That's what every offense needs. You need that guy in the middle. That is just going to clean up. And that's exactly what he's doing right now. And he has been our best cleanup hitter for a couple years now. So i'm excited. So anyway on that fellas anything you want to add before we do the typical to collapse wooten ric flair. Yeah just a real quick close on that thing with a week left in june for the month of june thus far he's been he has a three thirteen batting average. Yeah she's pretty good with eight. Oh ps pretty good. That's quiet because i didn't i. If you were said that to me. I wanted to believe you but because at like kick just graduate crazy in the whole helmet thing but that's neither here nor there. Good that's what i'm saying. Just saying both good. I think they said he's actually scam. Munn shortstops in the league right now. The all star game. You might be doubled up by zander. Bogart's in boston fans but reality right now. I'd say that's justified zander. Bogart's has been pretty so plus de carrying the rest so. I still think it's going to be a boston. Blue jays infield for the all star break. This is going to be bogart's. I think on And vladic. I think it really is going to be that. i don't. i think you'd be hard pressed to find two people arguing that right now so anyway to that point blue jays fans. Thank you very much for listening in this evening as we did our four and a half innings of ball here on the show with you live there in the ball game and so you keep coming to you live thursdays or wednesdays depending on what off days falling what shout out to our friends at stadium seen who also love our podcast apparently being good friends with us and obviously go out and listen to everything. Stadium seen dot tv to their plethora. Programming and articles and whatnot is well also. We haven't prop this up guys but we do have a patriot account that we all completely forgot about you can still you know. Pay jump in and we'll have you as a guest on this show is actually the current offer. And i'm just going to say how. How have you not taking advantage of this and got out to blue jays nation with us and enjoy all this fun. We and i'm still gonna call you all out on the fact that apparently you're all enjoying this to nothing game so far that not chitchatting with us evening. There's been good points and whatnot but that's about it. So there was nobody on us are blasting us about trading night eight pearson in kevin smith. I feel like we gotta take that whole segment candidate into throw it out to the twitter verse this evening and see what it is. Come on. i'm looking at the headliner in instagram account at me. Oh at me clammy until next week you can find us wherever you get your podcasting pleasure. Ceram and gentlemen. Let's get going to collapse in ric flair. Let's go blue jays. Blue jays vaccinated our going along.
The Sleeper and the Bust Episode: 905 Biggest ADP Risers Since The Fall
"Hello welcome to episode. Nine five of the sleeper and the buzzed. it is tuesday march sixteenth. Heroes paul spor. Joined this morning by justin mason justin. Good morning sir. More than you don't. I'm quite well. It is straps a man. I mean i answer the last few times because we're in the midst of a draft. I'm either in the midst of one arm. Got one on deck. I just finished beat. Paul spores on friday and yesterday afternoon. So everything's everything's going. Well yeah. I have my beat justice league until got. I think another week after something like that so Still lost time to get in. If people wanna get in think there's still eight spots But yeah i want. What is the date and time of this. Three twenty eight at four. Pm acer came. So this yeah. It's a sunday afternoon. You know the one right before the start of the season. So i'm sure it'll fill Yeah no it definitely will. But we'll see if we can fill it with folks we know. Yeah yeah. that's more fun we. I've got a bill as you know in their years in mind yesterday. So he's my main partner last year in You know fan of the show Another guy who's a finnish show That reached out that wanted to play league against me. And i was like a unless you wanna play something hundred dollars main event this is. This is the only ominous your shot so I've just got the occ got tout wars this weekend and then two main events and i think done draft and so Get and But you know unless i get pulled into another draft which is when you get to always possible. Yeah yeah yeah it's it's darn near likely. Yeah billy was in the draft yesterday. Along with dusty wagner colin weather wax poll moderate tyrant couple people from twitter chat so we we had a nice win nice difficult group and unsurprisingly colin dustin dusty and billy in the chatter where in the top five along with me so you know as far as as far as the grading goes on the on the fantasy pros. They like they liked. Where where you're at and feel pretty good about both people's feelings. I was talking on Discord friends like nothing better than freshly drafted team. Because you don't hate it yet. He got all these all these dreams for your like how. I'm going to hate this at some. But how how's it gonna. How's it going to fail and disappoint me. Because you know that's going to happen 'cause we look at some teams in may and we're like how did they draft this crap but as it stands you know after you're drafting. Yeah yeah. I did hear but anyway we got plenty of news and notes and then we're going to talk about biggest. Adp movers in a different setup. Even doing the great market reports which are looking kind of micro at the moves as they're happening kind of weeks over week week over week. And i'm gonna be doing. We're doing something bigger here with its october. First through february twenty eighth is one group march march first march through march fifteen. How much are they moving. Basically in march verses that fall and winter market price that they had so just kind of taking Some of your work in in looking at the larger differences there so we'll do bigger mover biggest movers today because members down on thursday. Let's start with some news. Michael franco headed to baltimore. I would say to get locked in job but real rees is there and he has the lefty so. I'm reluctant to say that. It's a locked in job but played a lot. He kinda knows the lay of the land. He certainly has an opportunity to get a full time. Role is putting my count. Franck going you're born at all. It's definitely put him on my board. I mean and i know some people are like well you know. He's never quite lived up to the hyphen in that can through the true And he can still be a very usable player especially in like fifteen you know. Mix yep leagues immune you. The projections haven't really updated yet for the move to baltimore because i don't think it's funny. I don't think it's official official. Yeah but You know most of the project systems had him for half a season and like fifteen home runs. So you kind of give him. Maybe another two hundred plate appearances on top of the three forty that they were giving him. And you're looking at a guy who's gonna hit like to whom runs to fifty batting average In a pretty darn good place to hit and a lineup. That is kind of underrated. I don't think i agree of credit. So i agree. There's you know there's there's some capability there especially you know. Kind of the top half. They're starting they're starting to started putting together to where it's it can you can move a bit Especially in the summer in camden. That's the thing gave me a summer in camden with somebody In my lineup. And i'm i'm gonna feel pretty good about it you know. He's reached twenty two homers. Three different times. Twenty two or more He's put up some decent batting career to fifty two with some seventies in their wonder if camden might help that he was eight. Homers and seventy eight. Michael francke was back in twenty. Twenty twenty twenty all sixty games so you know agrees never lived up. And i'm somebody who's had expectations of him. I love a guy with his power doesn't strike out so i've been kind of waiting in open for some more but it hasn't come. I'm not sure that this is gonna foster breakout for my girlfriend going to baltimore but does bring them into fifteen t mixers like you said and that's enough for me to get him on the board and and take a look. I don't know that it's going to be a straight Tune with real ruis just because of how much experience my bronco has at kind of being the guy and so you know he doesn't have a platoon split either. He's he's damn near even nine points. That's nothing you know. That's that's basically doing the same first rights In fact the it favors the righties with nine seven. Thirty nine against them. Seven against lefties as solid So yeah he's kind of a solid average guy and adding him to the lineup. Smart by baltimore. I thas good good. Pick up there and doesn't see totally cancel out real or lease twenty seven and they kind of have some hopes for him. Yeah but i mean really is really struggled during spring. So i think that you know maybe raise gets kind of the first shot because franken needs kinda get up to speed and stuff but i think franco eventually nabs and i think that there's opportunities for him to play together with ruis whether it's Put mountcastle in the outfield. And release or franco at i. Actually i don't know if broncos ever played i i like to put guys i man spider i and h you know release. Yes there's options. There's some maneuverability that they both play bottom line. I'm putting frankovic board For fifteen years especially all right. The flavor of this spring training has been one. Bobby witt junior. And he is making noise and just an draft him twice Well okay. I know i know but this this is this is looking like totti's for me and i don't wanna miss out or at least the possibility i don't wanna say straightaway that set to us because we know that turned out and we know that ended up being up. There are some differences sherm based on where tattoos had gotten to prior to. This is probably the biggest difference. And do i really expect. Bobby witt junior to break cam. I don't but i think it's a worthy shot and then he can be my first cut I don't know that the the ladder third last player. He was last player. My my my draft yesterday. I don't know that there's such a good player out there that i have to get that taking him as a problem. I think i think he's a better bet than wander franco who generally goes earlier. And so i'm taking my shot on. What like i said with junior. He had reached double a. By that point and had eighty eight games there to show what he can do but but it were the same age so you know couple. Twenty year olds really just showing how great they are. I don't think it's impossible to bobby. Junior finds his way into the major leagues in april at some point. And if they can't get like a long term deal done and just take him from day one. He's playing so well that i think it's worth one year last two pigs that's all i'm saying i don't have a high percentage on this but i do think that you know three fifty five eighty p in the oh sees which are twelve teamers. I'm fine with that. I'm fine taking the shot at basically thirtieth rounder About bobby jillian his huge spring. I i love him long term. I think he is going to be a very very good player. And maybe even a stud at the major league level He's you know all the reports on him you know from from the guys like erick logging. Eggen who could have troll around the backfield's in arizona Have been just phenomenal. that he is You know got plenty of our. He's got speed He's his defense is going to be good enough where he sticks shore I think he's hit tool will be average which is fine for a power hitter So i do think long term. He's going to be a very very good fantasy player. I would caution people thinking that he's going to be up before july You know. I mean maybe june at the earliest i think part of the issue is going to be that you know. He did not get real gains last year because of geremek an the minor league system is the minor league games are going to be delayed. So they're going to have the alternate sites. These not going to get a chance that helps him or may be called up. 'cause he's playing against more closer to major league. I and i think maybe just you know if he's at the site still doing it two weeks in like all right. Let's just give me a shot here. I think maybe casey get off to a fast start would help. Because i think they're not you know they're not out of bounds as as fringed card to contend irs. Which i know is not a ringing endorsement. But i'm not trying to go over the top with it. I'm just saying have a ball club that could make some noise. You know unless three three three three seven nine six seven with three homers twenty seven at bats. I'm not here saying that. there's a big chance. Saying azure last picking a thirty round draft. The fact that there's even a chance merits the pick. Yeah i i. i'm not gonna do it in third round draft in a fifty round draft hold I could see doing it. And i mean if you got larger benches and your league than traditional league Then maybe that's a worthy gamble. And i think you know. I think this may be counterintuitive to some people. But i think i'd rather do it in a twelve team league than a fifteen league and think some people will through there's there's more players jaffna fifteen late. Yeah but there's less replacement value on a pool so if you do need to drop him because he doesn't come up or because your team just runs into problems you're gonna have a better pool players to pick from. Yeah i did. I did in twelve. And i mean i do it in a fifteen two. If it's late enough and people start driving him up obviously Appeal bag as long as it's in that Three fifty range of overall pick. You just can't tell me that. Like oh man you gotta get kiki hernandez jerks and profile. Those guys that went in the last round when i when i took wit. No i don't not in the twelve team like those players are fine I i've been known to take either of them. But i don't need them over the shot that. Why is the next time tease. And that's all we're looking at here because when totti's was popping off in spring i was kind of ignoring it so i'm not. I'm not making the same mistake here again. Just a arming myself. Just in case he might be. My first cut. Went might Bobby witt might be my first cut in that league without. He doesn't make it. I don't know that. I'm going to stick around and try to try to hold until whenever and then deal we gain over and then it's kim over yet but i just i just don't i mean he's never played above ricky ball Which is you know. A a bit troubling. I think they're going to want him to do some sort of progressions. Maybe the shirt or out aa. I would think too. Yeah and i think double as where he should start and if he goes one soto on that as is up in a couple of weeks. I'll hold him as long as i can. You know i. I just i just don't see why it's not worth taking the shot that he's the next big star here on On on the youth movement that we've seen in the league teams are less than they're one of the teams that's less afraid to call guys up. Look what they did with their pitching yet. They weren't competing in any capacity and they let jr answering or come up and they had good results with it. So i just think there's enough of a chance and it's a small chance that's the thing i grant that it is a very small chance but it is enough that it's worth doing it late because you might have the next time. And if there's a ten percent chance of that there's another. There's another mike Well michael francke the late night draft But there's another jerks and pro. Far on the wires that i can get so so why not is is really where i'm at with it and i can't. I haven't heard a good argument as to why not Scott kingery joey wendell thomas stella jonathan scope stalling. Castro lewis arise will dominate. I keep going like are they any different than key. Garin and is a jerk profile. Are you would. Are they not in that same group. I mean yeah. I see the argument. I don't think i would do it. I don't think it's i mean. Could it pay off huge absolutely But could it. Payoff was much more likely to not off at all. Absolutely so cares though there what the opportunity cost is the point on that. I think that has rarely especially legs in twelve team league. Where you've got the replacement value. Yengo get the jonathan scopes off the waiver wire To replace him so I'd say given the possible. Roi it doesn't make sense not to do it personally. That's rahmat and i know rookie ball and he wasn't very good in rookie ball. Bobby witt juniors who we're talking about. So listen i understand the odds. I i want to be clear that i do not think this is a high percentage play but the fact that it's a non zero is the point here move on we don't need to belabor it. I did expertly in showing how great of a decision that was. Let's talk cincy man because they've kinda guy who might before some things. Well it we got to fold. Here won their Their situation at short is not great bob to they've got a prospect of their own have more experience In the miners who wouldn't be out of bounds to kind of push forward here despite only playing at aa. And you know doing all right with it that could force an interesting move here so this week. They're gonna as far as it. Short and mike moustakas at third because their second baseman of the future at least in their is jonathan. India is having a hell of a spring. He's out of his mind. Three thirty one. Four eighty three thirty three four. Eighty one five seventy one in twenty one at bats with homer three walks six strikeouts in a steel big time prospect Who's really fallen off in. The prospect market a bit based on some lack of growth relative to his expectations. Johnson india was a number five overall but yet it was the fifth overall. Pick in two thousand eighteen. And he's now falling down to seventh in just the red system. When at this point he was expected to maybe like top ten in baseball. And i don't even think he's on the top one hundred. He's not so it's fallen. He's fallen off a bit. As far as how people i've seen him development and where he's at with everything. But i do wonder if maybe he's kind of getting some of that shine back or just a hot run bottom line is they're looking at some different things here. I think it's at least worth noting that that they're putting suarez back at short moose over at third and opening up the potential that they could do something like this. I don't know what the reds are doing. I mean in this is like this. Whole situation is weirdly. You'll any us. Warez should not be playing shortstop. And i know he's enlightening fine best life or best career best shape of his career. I can't even say it. It's so ridiculous i like. He was not a good shortstop in detroit. Defensively And now you're asking him years later to play it I think you've forgotten how to play. Shortstop i know but look at some of the got so many ground ball pitchers like i just saw a fray like this i drop lease castio and my ranks not like a time But i did And i i mean i like newstalk is moving back and got some more natural position for him I just don't understand like what the reds you're doing like they wanna hold down like cost and stuff like that but they're gonna promote they're going to potentially lose a year of eligibility or you use losing control on. India is twenty four when he saving that for you. How far out that is. yeah. I guess so. He's a college. Not i who has like kind of kind of developed a little slowly. They see some things here. That is isn't just a hot sample in spring. And maybe more some changes coming together to where he looks like the prospect that he was when they dropped in my. I loved him coming out of college. I thought jonathan and the absolute he was the first overall pick in many fantasy first year fancier apps including mine in tgi ex Which is an industry dynasty league That i've been rebuilding from whoever left in shambles. When i got it. I wanted the tigers to consider him at one overall agenda i was. I was that into jonathan india and it. It hasn't really gone that while he's got some decent. Wrc pause totals but realized his age where he was before expecting a lot more and those are those are walk. Inflated and i think that's his age showing where he's taking advantage of some of these younger pitchers because the production just wasn't particularly special power wise. So there's some flaws here but at twenty four. What are you worried about that. That seventh year. Yeah i guess that makes sense At the same time. Like i always find it. Funny like these situations where Fit like vannes communities like in love with the guy and falls out of love with the guy and then falls back in love with a guy. I don't think they fall back in love. I think they forget them. And that's the thing. I think saw like if you if you were on twitter yesterday which i'm sure you. You saw like a bunch of people like jonathan india season and six months ago. People like you said he's not on top hundred lists right now for fantasy. Some special cutoff that everyone after top one hundred list i know did fall off a little bit but i think there's still some. There's still some juice there no and i agree. I mean i don't wanna give a guy and he was a guy who was drafted very very highly largely based on his final season. Say that that was kind of the interesting thing that gave guys some positive. I wanna i wanna say james anderson was pretty much on it from the top saying like two thousand. Eighteen was his only good only good college. He was used pretty mediocre in sixteen. Seventeen Breaks through with eighteen going off and i don't think he's ever really been a fan Jason for a wire so that's always been in my head like and it made me peel back like because i really respected his opinions and he's better at this than i am and i'm not saying that i've gotten over on him now because india's knocking on the door. Maybe because we don't even know they might be honestly. India could be ancillary to all of this because they have cow farmer pennsylvania shot. They may be doing this for dee gordon to be quite they could move nixon zell back the second base dope and up another spot in that outfield. It's a little crowded so like i think it's it's not related. I and i wanna be clear on that and also wanna be clear that like don't go out and draft india everywhere. I'd rather take the bobby which shot. Even though india probably has a better chance of making it has quite the upside. No i don't think so either. I think india kind of profiles to me like a guy who is going to be at least initially is not gonna out of town. He he's shown already in the minor leagues that he's not a guy who is going to have like a thirty percent strikeout rate Is probably going to have a decent hit tool I don't know that there is a ton of power in this bat. But there's a little bit speed there so he's probably like a not one seventy fifteen fifteen. Die masako for like that. Yeah which is fine. Because like he's not going hurt you And he's gonna have third and second base eligibility Once he gained a second base eligibility and season which is always nice to be of moved guy for middle corner. Think he's like an interesting guy like he's definitely not someone unlikely to drive unless we have some sort of clarity Prior to the prior to my last few drafts that he's going to be up with the team. Yeah because i don't think he's a fantasy difference maker. Like i'm not speaking on him the way i am wit. Because even if he makes it and like i said there's a higher chance that jonathan india makes it in not a game changer. I know like. I am much rather have with or Franko or You know even. One gorman new i think is kind of a prospect that could be up early. That people aren't Talking about a ton. Like i. I think he's fine I think right now is the time to sell him dynasty. If you've got a dynasty leagues people starting to get excited especially if he makes the opening day line of roster like. That's the time to be like. Oh you want jonathan india. Look up like he's in cincinnati. It's a good lineup. Could hark like his back. Yeah kind of tap out. On the mac value You know. I don't know how much power i mean. We greet them out for fifty raw power. Like that's twenty home runs like sherry. It's really not super interesting even if he hits a ceiling But i do think he's kind of that low ceiling high floor type of guy that you know will probably be a an average shown above average accumulator in the inches. Yeah that's fair fair way to put it with jonathan india. He's adding little bit back to is a prospect flare with with with a decent spring here and a move that again isn't necessarily directly tied to him but would create that opening if they did want to say no want. Let's take a shot hear. If sars doesn't follow over two feet short. And i think he can avoid that fate. Then all of a sudden they're looking to india's warez moves as the as their infield there with the do do do do do do do. Oh got a little bit of breaking news. Napier's will not make the opening day roster eating his brain injury gamble than at anything so that's a parental one ranked him to. Yeah i i kind of. I kind of moved him. he's he's on way down on very highly owned players. Mind so now that the brutal all right well sorry. That's all right. I mean you hold them in as long as you can. I'm mostly draft. And so i'm not so. He's one of your fifty. I'm not maybe get some second half level of emmer or late later. Love probably getting dropped in in any league. I can't draw men. But yeah. But i think you know in fifty rounds. He's just kinda parked. Comes up in june like. Oh i have pearson. I forgot you know i. I definitely see something like that. But as far as redrafts go. I'm moving way down. He got him in. Let's see eight of heat team. Leagues already drafted. Take him or from kentucky. Also have a bunch of fromberg. Don't you i mean i don't have necessarily a bunch of fromberg okay. Okay then i thought he did. Let's see i've got fromberg in five of my eighteen links. Okay and into those five. I drafted him. Like in the last two rounds of your you've had taken the super discount on him the jeff pearson eight of your eighteen right. Yeah so this is. That's not good. A little. Bit of a bummer. All right it with my hunter harvey shares. Who we should take any other guy with two first names. Apparently apparently tanner scott locally in. That job wonder francke was sent out And again you know comparing him dusty. And i were comparing him and wit and i think again. I think wit is a much better. Pick them bronco. I don't even think frockcoats drafted in the twelfth teamer. I how long he hung on twelve team in f. Well i mean personally. I'm not drafting. Insult of what he's saying really for because i'm not driving with their either slow. Okay this last pig on a guy who has got the buzz and at least has an avenue there was never a chance at francke was gonna break cam and lengthy. There's a chance it's going to get up in april or may i just don't know man i get that. He is an elite prospect. I have nothing bad to say about his prospect status. This is all about the team that is on the way that organization runs in the fact that he's blocked to pretty severely. Like why would you and yet if he showed that if he was twenty two and ready than. I don't think it would matter as much. But there's it's so unnecessary to like force into the lineup. Right now with allow in adamas up the middle out of the outfield. But like just is absurd. You could. I mean. They love wendell. Though and taylor walls could be up before franco together. Walls will be up before from especially with this organization. Yes he's number. One prospect needs great but the organization that we have here twenty years old. Hasn't talked There's no chance. And again i. I know we're going to say i'm talking about both sides. My mouth with the whig franco thing. I'm talking about their situations. Specifically though and kc been more aggressive with prospects have an obvious opening at second base. I don't really think they're going to bring up from camp with them but at least there's a chance there was literally never chance that bronco could break camp literally zero. So how will you hold them in in in. Nfc when he's taken up one of your seven precious reserve spots. Yeah i mean. I think if you're drafting you've got a hold him and just hope that if this isn't like an aug situation rate or july situation when a passed the super to That being said like. I do think he's likely up at some point in. May it may be closer to memorial day than it is like you know right after a few weeks after they get the extra service time and i do think he's going to be really good once he's up And so i think he could be digi Mayhew light kind of. And so like i if people wanna hold him. That's your one stash. go ahead in. There are avenues for kind of playing time. You know demand. Choi shut down With an injury right now There was somebody else on the raise that was shut down recently for injuries. That i'm brett phillips Just went down with injury. Like there's there's some passive playing time. And i don't think you know who knows how long can cure. Meyer is going to be able to stay healthy Cassini never is Was playing center there. That's opening up. Anything for franck cart. Margot can play center. Okay i guess a lot of the outfield. And then what are they gonna put him at. Second 'cause the domiciles at short I do not know. I mean i. Just don't see it. I one moving lower around quite a bit and spur some third and everything so. This is one where i would love to be wrong. I want want franck in baseball as soon as possible. But with the setup that we have in in major league right now. I just don't see it. Just that's one of the reasons. Why i'm i've been kind of shying away from lake. Huron trapped and another reason with regards to taking him versus versus. Bobby witt is his eighty one hundred picks higher do fifty five to three so there at the same cost. Okay sure but it's not your last pick. It's two five in twelve team or that's that's like a real pig and twenty second pay. Here's a thing like with like i love prospects like francke who have like hit tool already down right shirt You know these guys can tend to kind of translate into more power As up to major league just because they hit the the barrel the ball so well How ever we have seen in recent seasons even with another top prospect of his ilk You know a guy who was projected be like. Hey this guy's gonna win the batting title in his rookie year based on his minor league. Numbers in vlad guerrero not hit for that kind of average in so Look i i think there is a little bit more out. I don't want to call it risks. I don't think he's going to be bat. Like i think he could still like even if he struggles a little bit. Probably hits to seventy two majors but like to project guy be able to hit three hundred right away. I think always a silly kind of Thought process that being said. I do think he's going to be very good and then he is gonna come pretty quickly once up. The question just becomes being in the ray system when his yup yup and that. That's that's the tough part for me again. I just i really want to i. I really want him to be up. And i want. I wish we had a system where this sort of guessing game wasn't Do but that's where we're at so anyway. I i want to be clear that. I think that there's a distinct difference between win franco based on price and organization. Set up there. Because i think it's easy. You're you're talking about your ass because you like one and not the other. I feel like we've explained why they're different. And i hope i hope that's that's that's for you dusty okay. I know you're listening. Text me right now. If you're listening how about that. I'm sending subliminal actually direct. Let's Let's talk about brennan rogers because you starting to get a little flavor of the month. Action here and drafts. And then he got a hamstring issue That was like out right back down the draft board but then only not so serious so first message after after the injury was bud. Black is encouraged by second message or second note. The rockies believe brian rodgers hamstring. Issue is not serious. So all good with brian rodgers. Moving forward. I mean us like this is interesting. Ki kinda snuck up on me. I did not necessarily think coming into this draft season like he was going to actually be the front runner for the second base job. Yeah it seems like he is of course. Why wouldn't you be. I mean i know. I know they. Actually they actually didn't have a way to block them this time with their. Not ogun mcmahon. The second cleared franson could play and ease outfield. I know but he can't play second I like he. He's definitely interesting when you look at the profs that pedigree and like he You know is a former third overall. Pick in two thousand fifteen. He was a top ten. Prospect rally top-five prospect on on majority of people's lists For a long time has struggled to stay healthy in to produce Even in some pretty hitter friendly environments That colorado has going throughout the minor leagues. I really don't know what to expect of him. you know colorado's obviously place and if you can't get five hundred plus plate appearances You know i think he's someone worth investing in But the also have other players that they can you know put your hamson like ryan mcmahon and they seem pretty set on hamson the outfield thomas harding article Back in late feb talking about you. Know he's pretty pretty set for center and sam hilliard's there but think happens a better bet right there They could you know. They could have mcmahon there. They have backups. Because there is still no timetable. Let's be clear. It's not like rogers back out there doing his thing there. There is no timetable but there was some big concern when it first happened. Now it's now not looked good You stealing a base. And that's the tally part like wasn't even into his slide and he just started stumbling and then grabbing at his hamstring in Emmy he walked under on the basis. Yet and i mean i don't think he was necessarily a guy that we were expecting. He speed isn't going to be a huge part of his game. Like no but. I was hoping for like seven to ten. Yeah i think that even that is aggressive. That's saying big because he got heard notoriety getting hurt. I think that was aggressive You know i mean. He has not stolen base. Sit in in a minor league game or major league game for that matter since two thousand eighteen will that's because He played just thirty seven games to play in twenty nineteen and the injuries. I think were like. Hey you don't need to run. But if he was fully healthy. I think he'd i think at least Swipes bags but yeah. He doesn't read our own speed scores. I i don't think he's i think he's maybe like a pro breath even prior to this is probably like a five stolen base guy And now it's probably closer to three like it's just chip in Fifteen to twenty homer awnings and learning in spring. And he's run. He's run twice. You've got caught both times but the idea that he was just if you're already running twice in ten games in spring maybe falsely but brennan rogers certainly sees himself as somebody who could have stone seven to ten so You know. I i disagree with where you were before the injury now. I think because he got hurt trying to steal and he's been caught both times. Maybe it's maybe it's yellow light or even a red light on him unless they send him. I mean i think he's probably like a twenty twenty homerun bat. Maybe a little bit more than that with like to sixty average like think about averages worked really pop off. Yeah and that's where. Sean has rica's go. I would take that but with gore's you with more because yeah because of get your help. And then he can lean on that park and do more damage particularly the batting average. And that's that's if you know things broke out in the twenty four year old prenton. Rogers really took a step forward bottom line is i still these draftable in all formats here based on this news. Because he's not particularly expensive and this will make him cheaper so that team forty ninth at second base and that's probably see where i've got them right now. It's thanking basis deep liking gonna put him over especially with the amstrong every thirty seven. Yeah but i mean the difference between thirty seven and apparently i ranked at the same ring. Two guys thirty two guys anyone's apparently i can't look math either the depth at second base There is no real superstar talent. Unless you can't let you an obvious superstars but there's a few stars but then it's a gigantic cluster of sameness. Yeah you could argue. You could feasibly argue from like eleven to two forty. Yeah i was gonna say you could probably argue in nineteen to forty nine I mean what what what you could tell marseille. And and even our boy. Nick zolak and chris taylor dylan more these guys that i have ahead of the nineteen. What do they really do that. that you know a guarantee. Hamson orion mcmahon brennan rogers. Autry come up with one of four five second baseman. I'm often waiting. Like i'll trying to get one of the top six which is lemay always. Field muncie lau out to. I like to go in there no busy. I got busy nine. Wow okay. I mean i don't. I'm not gonna argue that. Because i'm in did what's the difference between this show and jose. Altuve a and jest an era. And i think yeah. There's a top four for me And if i'm not getting one of those top four In albee's lemay humira field. Lau unlikely waiting. I mean the the exceptions to that are maximum seen in mike new stocks. Who have multi of of putting muncie there. Yeah so i. I'm typically waiting because there are just so many guys that i just really really like later And if i do pop on someone it's someone who's got you know triple eligibility tommy admin mcneil jimenez are eligible and civil lack. I mean second base is filled with guys who can play everywhere edmund and sollac yesterday and another kind of the same player but two of the same In my opinion good player a double double fantasy guy with a two seventy plus average upside. I'm here for that and they both play multiple spots so. Yeah that's where. I'm at their with brendan rodgers again. I still i think he's plenty draft. Still he wasn't expensive before this in this obviously will not raise his price Speaking of raising the price shohei ohtani. I've already got a couple shares. And i'm so glad because boy these last few weeks could be wild. With his prices he smacks to more. Homers is been looking good on the bum. I this is just kind of an open question. Where are you at on where you out on otani. 'cause we're actually going to get into a little bit more here. He is one of our big movers. So i guess you don't have to go too crazy on on your thoughts because we will finish the show with him in the The biggest adp movers. But are you encouraged by this. Let me ask you that. Absolutely and my. Sp ranks Which is the only spot of rank them because they don't do. Ut only ranks though. I because the big pool but i don't know that that's necessarily still ranking. Yeah you know. Got chris davis magog. Yeah i'd like to see the arguments on that one because the yeah that being said Yeah i moved him from seventy one of my starting pitcher ranks to fifty one forty eight so where we are closed. Yeah i mean. I knew that was going to be fine. I do an or it. Did i still do worry. A little bit about not necessarily the effectiveness of the pitching book. Just how long he can do it. i don't think that's unfair. I don't think it's unfair at all But having that bat backup. I know it's weird to consider that in an sp ranking a player. So you know. You're that's the weirdness of you know kind of where we're at with with these type of guys. But that's why i'm willing to push him up and and get otani because i have you know i have this ability to put him somewhere else. If one asset of of his game doesn't work and took him one fifty six yesterday and perfectly fine with that price. Yup i don't have a problem with the price. I think he still gonna be frustrating to us. I mean in It really depends on how the pitching does. Yeah are. i'm assuming you're gonna use them as a pitcher mostly or is it mostly has mostly as a pinch hitter. But then here's the thing you end up getting one of those situations where you're you draft some good pitching guys at the back. End the pop like my last. Two starters. Turnbull and mills. Let's say they just play at their ninetieth percentile. How great would that be. Wonderful and let. Let's say all of a sudden you're pitching looking really good man. But i could really use an infusion of pop than i am as a hitter and get four or five games a week like i understand that. It's if you don't deal with the headache. Don't draft him if you're not willing to manage him don't draft. I don't wanna say necessarily a headache. It's management if you don't want to deal with that management take off. You're bored i'm open to it because i think the upside is such. That can pay off huge. Yeah special in if you're playing daily moves leagues. Obviously he's got a way up yet. I mean he is conceivably a top seventy five pick. I don't tell you can white high. Yeah i think you can make the argument that he should be going inside. The top fifty in a In a daily moose league because daily loosely. He has the potential to be the number one overall player. Fantasy daily moves folks. Hit us up. If you've already drafted where where tony i don't have any daily moves leagues. He went of interest fifth round of the bar fleet draft and while that is a weekly moves league the who drafted him thought. We were playing daily because we had played daily previously. Okay and so. He took him in the fifth round. So you guys you guys way in busied him they're Oh that's a really interesting moving. Now that we're wikileaks. Were weekly like yeah. Dude you gotta gotta read the rules and i arena roles So but that being said I if it was daily. I have no problem with that. I would probably be wanting him as a hitter And then if the pitching does get to the point where like okay. He's actually pitching really well. He is pitching once a week And i need pitching then. I would probably start using him more as a pitcher. I think the interesting thing becomes you know of the u. t. Only guys. Like i think stanton has a shot get outfield eligibility. Yeah i think. I i would say more than shot. I think it's damn near certainty for the first month. Yeah so i think you can in a league like an f. b. c. draft boast in and otani where you can't draft for instance nelson cruz. No tony alvarez. Yeah or alvarez or even jd martinez so I think that becomes a really interesting pairing. Then get two guys with massive upsides. Now they're also massive downsides In you know. I don't know how much you wanna you know. Then be risky. Rest of the way but That could be really interesting. But yeah i think i'm using him as a hitter mostly because if they keep to the same schedule they did last year. Which was he pitched on sundays. He's not going to do that though. They've said that it's every six day of vegas because they're going to run a six man but it's not. He has the sunday game. It's just the rotation okay. Do not see that. So that's That's a little bit of bummer. Actually so actually think it's better because the tough part was especially on sunday. What if he got pushed and you got nothing now. You've got enough literally the well. I mean yeah if you're if you're thinking of as a pitcher then yeah for sure. Let's better so so yeah. I'm definitely not out. I have zero ish sheriff's eighteen leaves. You don't have anywhere. Wow i just the headache. I just didn't know i have to shares okay So let's see here. It's a zohar i mean if you look at like the actual for list of my player shares it's like the re- hundred people deep like just leave it. I believe it Mean you got a got him in my first draft to the season back in october And i took him in a draft champions league so both draft draft and holds And yeah so. I mean i'm not opposed to taking him. I don't know that it will happen again. Though just because the majority of my drafts left are huge. Money leagues and. I do think there is. I don't know that. I want to be dealing with a headache in those kind of leaks. Okay all right. Let's move on to some of our biggest. Adp moves and again. This is This is supposed to be in concert with the great work that you're doing with your watch Where i'm just kind of looking at a larger scope. The first set like where they're moving from is from a composite from october through february so basically winter spring me fall winter together versus march so for example i guy andrew von. He's plus eighty seven to two twenty two so that means that he was going three zero nine october. I in february twenty eighth. He's going to twenty two here in march so i think it's pretty clear what gets it. I think i'm over explaining it. But i just wanna make sure that i'm on the right track with everybody. So let's talk and giovan. There's been discussion as far as prospects go. He's probably the best one angling for a job of those who have never been in the majors before as there's been a lot of talk about how they see him as part of their twenty twenty one plans for sure recon definitely sees that as the case. That doesn't mean he's gonna break camp though to real investment. He's kicking button spring. Where do you come out on andrew. Von i really like andrew von Quite a bit Think he is going to be up. Very early I think there is a chance that we hear here in the next week or so that he signed a long term deal and then he breaks camp with the major league team if that happens whereas adp go. Oh god he's going to twenty two. Now i think he goes inside of the top fifty. That happens tomorrow draft tomorrow. You don't i'm saying you do now. Where do you draft him. I think i'm drafting him. Maybe like one seventy five ish. Okay so if he doesn't because before that you'd be out. I think i think the very first drafts after he gets signed if that happens with andrew von with this is not the salt speculation The price will be so but bananas. I think he'd go like way too high. Yeah i i think he would probably go. Hi because here's the thing like well. I i maintain this throughout The offseason like that. There's no position that i'm really that worried about in terms of depth one of the ones that a lot of other people kind of talk about is first base. Being you know a a show a position why disagree with you. Agree with that You know because you can get guys like joey votto waiting. You can get guys like well allow really want that Jet guys like he's use aguilar late. I do like carlos santana lake. I am definitely high. Man hey suzanne your he lasts. I ranked twenty probably a little too high. I think probably down a couple of spots. Because i haven't i haven't really been taking their and you know we. We've talked about this a lot on the show about battle testing your ranks. And then if you're really not taking is certain spot. I think you need to move him down to be honest with yourself and say you know what i'm not taking him there. Why would i expect others in my what i instruct others to do so should they use my my rankings. So a move your down a little bit i did. I did get him in a draft but He sits there like kinda sticks out like a sore thumb. Top my board for a good while. And i need to adjust that but yeah i actually come. Come out where you are with regards to first base being like. I'm okay you know i. I'd like to get a monster for sure and then put put my next guy. My jaren walsh my. Cj kroner talked about very much in the next one here josh bell. Roddy says maybe even andrew on at my ci. But if i financial situation where. I might go and ham on the outfield pitching and infield. And i don't get a first baseman for a little while i'll make jared wash my starter and the reason. I know this because i did it yesterday. Is literally my starter at first base in in the To eight and i'm okay with that. Let me tell you the southfield twelve team. You know what you think. As far as that goes Hang on one. I'm sorry taken too long all right. So i got brandon loud second story short ren third outfielders yelich l blackmon buxton hicks and My pitching go crazy. I'm pitching anything. But my my frontliners that i would have taken over a quality. A high quality first baseman. Gallon lynn johnson. I've made sure that. I got or key and in montage and that's an area where i still could've gotten maybe more of a mid tier that ended up with wall ship. I which. I'm very happy with. Because i don't think albert pools is forcing his way in the lineup. Nearly as much. I think that they all under i think everybody's on the same page right now with that and and the team is explained to him. Were still going to play you but you your cash a does not get you in the lineup. Every day to any degree whatsoever jaren walls needs an opportunity to see how real last year was so But yeah what do you think how that played out now wall specifically because it could have been a different guy if if you prefer we sled was this the team that you drafted three first basemen whereas like drafted walls. I think it was aguilar. It was walsh tellez. Okay and Just washington is. Actually i when i have okay so yeah i mean. I don't mind that i may. I loved her offense. Your offenses fire. It's it's great You know. I think you might run into problem. We're both walsh says are and you're not able to get The strong side. Yeah which is fine but So you know. I i probably would have preferred like joey votto or an error. What if i throw like a can hide. Ut and i have till as in walsh to actually play in a platoon yeah. That's probably need the schedule the workout for me. But i i you know i put. I put wash on the front side of the week. Because he's got three out of four righties and then hopefully the weekend would set up till has to honor three writings or even all three righties. And then i play him for the weekend because walsh getting to left. He's you know that's ideal scenario. I'm talking here. It never plays out that perfectly. But i felt fine taking one of the having those two as one of my first baseman Because even like i think brian anderson kind of fits. What you're talking about with joey von. Oh he's he's not at first space. But again i put him at ut. And then i have both till as an washed a figure out a first baseman. And that's exactly what i would do. I've done just play. Matchups with them until one of them can grab a fulltime role because injuries or just playing. You know playing time will will work itself out with that saw. I i do kind of like that set up you know as far as von goes i. I want to caution people like. I don't think he's gonna be a thirty home. Run high batting irish monster right away. Like what what what are you saying. I think he's probably like a two sixty five to seventy batting average guy with like above average power or like twenty five home runs And to sixty like. I think people are gonna if he does get the call to start the season Or signs a contract like like people are gonna go crazy. And i don't think that one i don't think he said profiles is a guy with like power and i don't necessarily know that it's reading while he's hit like three hundred spring training right now with six walks which is great Aches are a one to one trying to walk like an on. Base percentage like monster especially at the price But like i don't. I don't think the power is quite wet. People maybe expect because he's such a high prospect at the first base position I think he's going to be a very very good player but he could grow into more power. Like i talked about earlier with franca. Like i like these guys who've got it tool down you know. And then he they can get more power from that I don't think he's a power monster quite yet at this point his career. You gotta get andrew von tobel a little bit interest in a guy who has a power monsters career at this point and stop saying he's asleep her he's not asleep this peak wide awake sleepers c. J. krone is no longer a sleeper folks. The second silent colorado share. And before that when we didn't even know if you had a job yet you could if you were just like. I'm cj krone guy and he's going to sign somewhere. I'll take him don't care where he lands and you kinda hell of a windfall with him going to colorado. But he's now up to one. Eighty eight draft pick. That's plus eighty-five from where he was. That's not a sleeper but also by the way. Don't mind that he's going up there. I actually. I'm in on this krone hype. I just want it to be tabbed properly. As to what it is. He's he was a non roster by. He's gonna make the team. He's going to be the first baseman. I mean i know it's the rockies so there's always a switch up possible of butter stupidity but he also happens to be having a strong spring as well. So where do you where do you come out drafting. Cj crow. Do you agree with that. Dr price. he's kind of sleeper. I hate you alive yeah. I'm fine with that draft price. But i think people need to be cautious especially the playing kind of nfc leagues of where. There's a lot more sharp people. either. I think he's. He's definitely a guy who's going to be really undervalued in In like your traditional home links and stuff like that. So and i think that's what the majority of people listening you're playing is playing at home leagues applying. Espn yacht. who's cbs stuff. Like up. and then he's gonna be very undervalued ironed him sixteenth. He'll still be cheap there. I mean if he is and that's great yeah asleep during your only then take advantage. But i'm just saying in the broader market i. He's not don't don't don't anticipate that he's going to be there. Like pick to get to the to hundreds because at one eight hundred average means he's going after that too but if you like crown i think he'd take at that adp and it's not too expensive going one seventy nine in online championships over the last two weeks And i think they'd sixteenth rounder. I've seen him mostly go in like the top one fifty And even higher than that like he. He's been going above. Josh bell in eric hosmer. I don't think that's necessarily a mistake. It's just not one that i'm hoping to get him at a huge discount and So i probably not an end up with him. I don't think i have a morning teams The like you said. It's it's hard to keep track so i just don't check. No i did not have one. Eight eight teams He's definitely a guy. Like i'll be looking at in the main event in my. Oc and stuff like that and tell oars Utah where's the place. I could probably actually jet him just because he it's an auction and so i don't have to worry about. This just always seems to be someone who is ready to pull the trigger in like the eighth ninth route. And i just. I don't know that i want to do that yet. I mean that's that's pretty high. That's pretty high there. I'm looking more at the the eighty eight eighty p. If it's i. I needed to be somewhere in that range If you're talking eighth ninth round you know stuck in ninth round twelve team radio homes. You almost get into the top one hundred at that point. Yeah i mean. I'm not going to push going there. I rate him sixteenth in. That's in front of reese hoskins in christian rocker and treatments. But it still behind. Josh bell. And eric hosmer. I think that fuels to me I'd much rather have bell and osmar Then go eat. Why would you rather have hosmer chrome god. No i mean. I i like i like eric hosmer. I think he gross. We're just gonna nor the changes. He made last urine. Yes pretty much. I mean i don't. I don't put a lot of stock into that As some transcended change eve. Okay even if. I grant that even if i grant that some of those changes are gonna stick still taking. Cj chrome in colorado do the proven thirty homer guy going to the best inning environment. The universe maybe. Maybe you're right. Maybe i do need to put him over. I'll give. I'll give some okay. I don't like eric. Hosmer has does stem lot from the way treated you. Because you know what epic guy. I will freely admit that my meyer caused up my ranks dare you you let porno movie mistreated. But he did make some changes and that's fair to point out plus twelve points on his fly ball rate last year to a career. High thirty four percent But when you see that sticks at it's legit because he thought he finally realized like yeah dude. I'm wow gee whiz that work out like it's almost. It's almost annoyance that with him like. Oh oh you found that that work did you. Come on that on your own eric. Good job finally doing it but yeah he did have a nice little power explosion. There to thirty one is so. I'm still taking krone over him. I don't have them far apart but for me. It's easily krone over us. I don't know that it's easily for me. But i i i dig. You're probably right. I probably should have grown fifteen hosmer sixty And some maybe there's a chance i look with chrome it just seems like the his. Adp is a runaway train. right now. it is it is and it's the colorado doing some Doing a lot of the damage there. I get it. I when playing in leagues like you're supposed to event like people are just gonna take their guys like they just don't care drought and i think he's gonna end up being like a top hundred draft pick and that a bit too much for me jake. All right. we're gonna have to pop through a few of these a little bit quicker. We're going to be here for two hours. Minimum miles straw plus eighty two to two thirty eight. That's as he looks to crystallize the starting centerfield job and he's speed guy My main question here is just. Are you taking him like do you believe stronghold this job and do you want to pay for that speed at the expense of virtually everything else but but primarily the the power like i know the answer is yes because you've expensive you know you're completely full craft but go ahead and answer. Let's see where you're at I the answer is yes. Depending on the situation. I'm in out of. His name was malik straw. Without do it for you. Do that would be so. That's an eighty grade was like sixty grade firm firm plus nate first name and just literally replacement level last name the most basic point that you can get a but malik straw. Ooh yeah. I mean. I take him in the first round That being said mean. It really comes down the roster construction when you get to that point draft. It's like how badly dean speed Because he's knocking. Offer a ton of anything l. Pow any in the batting average probably league average. So what's the what's the most homers. He's at anyone stop in his career from our straw hats. one yet. you're correct. You're correct one So you have to plan for this. And yes i will take these way out and say that gal straw could work. That could work. But people said that. With malik smith louis cal to i. Don't think that one does work because you're then really hurting batting average. It's he's supposed to. He's he's supposed to bring batting average to the table. I mean he doesn't strike out a lot. He actually takes washing time for like two fifty. Of course they do pretend systems like they only give vlad a good batting average in the literally. Nobody else yeah. I think if you're gonna you're gonna pair straw and gallo then you have to pair it with a third guy who's actually going to deliver somewhat of a guaranteed good batting average. You're supposed to get that at the front end in the draft though anyway. I'm talking about where they're actually being drafted in. I don't say what mayhew in gallo but like that's a different. You have to start that plan in the second or third round. Yeah and. I don't think this is necessarily i when when we say like this is something you a plan for. It comes in with people. Get the idea that like you come into. The draft of this plan is not necessarily that all. It's it's mean you can if you want. But i'm decision but that's what i think that's a poor decision if you're going i'm going to get alex smith you know pick you know me and my house. Sorry country calling again mile straw. I picked two hundred. You know the jumps. Adp another forty six. And make sure i get him And i need to make sure. I get my power and get my my My average early What's wrong with targeting. Him potential speed. Though i think he i think you i think he's great. God have highlighted on your sheet But i don't like entering a draft that lake for rabbit Going on god. I have to get him unless you're in an auction you say about every draft centric mon- no i don't i just hung up with him because i've got him since quite a bit cheaper. Yeah i've got him. So like i got him so much higher than adp. He just ends up on eleven of eighteen teams. Yeah as be sticking with you so But that being said like. I think it's going to run again. He seems his job lockdown I think he is probably surefire. Bet for twenty stolen bases and could easily get to thirty And maybe even more than that like week we could see a thirty five forty stolen bases from him there. Okay key is. Can you hang hang onto that walk right that he hadn't minors or they gonna attack him because they know that you can't really do any damage on them. Mile straw had a five percent walk right in eighty six plate appearances last year Double digits all throughout the miners. I think that's that's the key there. Be careful overrating that that walk there. Because i do think that he's going to be attacked. And if he shows that he can't hurt them pitchers will just continue to attack him in those walkways some risks to to pencilling in like thirty stolen bases from him. Like when you're i would do that because He is a guy could easily be replaced in season. Like if the astros you're doing well and the go okay. Our biggest weakness right now is mile. Straw should be a utility soup. Utility guy they'll go out and get someone at the deadline and then all of a sudden you know has your stolen base total. The project for him maybe goes down the tubes because you can't hold onto him at the abbey yet so i think he is a great supplement to others speed assets. You're gonna have on your team but don't make him like the centerpiece of your stolen strategy. That's fair that's fair. i would say that. Same thing with mousetraps strategy. Be careful for sure. I one of the big flavors of the spring training month if you will Has been tj antone or today as would say Issue this a little bit of a mild groin strain that kinda dampening here. He's bounced up. Seventy three picks to to seventy with a bullet by the way. I mean just people ready to take him anywhere. The injury sunny gray does give them an outlet to at least start in the rotation but now he has his own issue to deal with is tj. Someone you're drafting and if so what price are you paying and is it for starter or hybrid or anything get from t- d'antoni where do you come out with him He was a guy that i wasn't really paying attention to coming into drop season and I think that is clearly of venomous snakes. So in. I don't know why did identify him as a guy that Could be a tyler. Molly s later this year. Because i was so in on tyler molly on the same team to saints team so i can't really say and you can do that. Same transition where it's like. Oh he's he's he's bow paying pinball by oath is in the rotation and he's gonna stick. Yeah and i mean he has. Lorenzen has not looked good go. Nobody said disparage lorenzen. Here guy stick to your own. Lorenzen adds a rotation because wade my lease hurt. So yeah but i think that the fact that lorenzen has struggled. They've lost some Some pieces in this bullpen Or have pieces in the volt in their banged up on top of having lost guys trades or just defanged guys I think that like he. I think antone spotless rotation could be locked in the same way that tyler mali's got locked in last year and so i did not make him in my initial hundred and fifty Back in february my that went up this morning. i've got a mid ninety one. I believe And i think he'd make the argument. If it wasn't for the groin injury. That i probably would have put him higher of the skills i think. He's got a really interesting arsenal and You know a slider. That i think can be lead at time. So i'm yeah i i'm buying in. I think the groin injury may be keeps his price down where i can actually get him because i was afraid that all of a sudden he was going to be going win like in creeping towards the top two hundred. And that's not a price that i'd be willing to pay but i think he this keeps him in the three hundred ish area to seventy five to three hundred and i'll be buying price yet. That's kinda the thing like you never reprinted. But this is tamped down the little bit of the hype on and on antone. So if you want to get in. But you are worried about the skyrocketing price this might level it out a little big opportunity to jump in their love. The talent here definitely injury. But i mean we refer injury. I don't think that's ghoulish know i. Don't i know that they will happen. And so i just kind of let the chips fall. But i'm never like crow. Bust his leg right now. I'm just totally jake. But let's stay on the same team. Nick stenzel plus fifty five to twenty four again with the bullet. He's having a big spring. This looks like a man all we really need. Here's health and i say we need. That's been a big challenge for him. But like the talents in place. Ya feel the talent profiles place in all your betting on his health. I'm gonna take that gamble so often that i can spite the healthy season and get a superstar level fantasy player. Which is what i believe. Sell has the capability to be ten ninety three zero p s in spring like. I said it's killing it. He's really england to have that centerfield job. Unlock kind of in the back. Half of the lineup right now. But i don't think that that's set in stone either. And i do believe that he'll lead off against lefties. That's that's my guess So i'm in on the sell price and even in a bit higher to be honest but to twenty four is where he's at in march. How do you feel about sends out a love sans l. I mean and it is all about health for him and last year was the cova thing in Just been lucky. I think in terms of injuries so i mean. I don't think we need to go too deep into but i think a great i got him ranked as my fifty second fielder And i could easily see myself taking him a little bit higher magna push up to i. I don't think he is a guy who necessarily has a carrying stat and fantasy. But he's one of those guys that's gonna just give you all round production. I think he's gonna do well. And everything yeah like in. I love guys like that because the allow me more options later on in a draft you know if i got drafted miles draw then. I'm not drafting another stolen base guys that point. Like if i'm you know drafting a joey gallo really jeff sizing power the rest of the way nick sends zell gives me options later on You know he's is going later on the draft but Like to finish off my draft like of got a lot of different ways. I can go to address things. So i i liked nick sense a lot this year. Yeah it's hard not to The talent is absolutely there and if you believe like one. Seventy four is his men in march fifteenth round. I'm paying that all day. I'm even a little bit higher. I think i think i can bump them into the top one fifty of a twelve team league if it fits you know that'd be like really going out and getting him You don't necessarily have to do that. But if it came to that i would not jackson's i mean his projections. Having for eighteen home runs sixteen. Stolen bases or or thereabouts. Depending on what system. You're hundred twenty eight games too. That's the thing. And that's what i was going to get to is if he plays one hundred fifty. We're talking about a guy who's potentially like twenty five twenty five or close to it per game changing Jake mcgee is up. Fifty one spots to seventy. I think it's because of the opportunity to get saves. I guess just a quick thought on. Because i think this is the one we can kind of get through easily. How many of the saves do you think it gets. Because i know give capital likes to mix and match and this is a lefty and jake. Mcgee guys being righties there. Do you think it's makes them match. Can he hold the with any certainty. Howdy see the The closer situation. Playing out for your giants. I think it's going to be a muddled mess. But i think he's going to be the I don't want to play mary. i guess. I don't wanna see king of the mountain Because i don't think it's a mountain like he's he's like king of the mole hill so like probably leads the giants in saves this year but that could be with thirteen fifteen. Yeah yeah so I'm not worried that he's a lefty. They've got other lefties that are good in this bullpen I think he's probably gonna get the first shot. I think he should. I also think that gonna be times that You know really you know the the hurdle lineup comes up in the eight. And that's where he enters. It comes up in the seventh. And that's where enter so. I think it's going to be very frustrating. But he's going extremely late. Danielle got in round. Twenty six in tj fbi and I've seen him go right around there. In a bunch of drafts. I think that will continue to rise as as we're seeing but i still think he like as a closer three. I don't think you can go wrong there. Why not take a shot there and get some double digit saves. He has closing experience None of the other guys competing for that job do and i do think that that helps to a degree. We've seen it many a time. All right let's back back to the hitters. Aaron hicks clus forty three to forty getting some spring buzz. Do you know being healthy right now. And the report that is going to hit the third in that yankees lineup and look basically just say hickson all draft him but the fact that you also throw on some good news and he's kicking button spring looking healthy you son of a bitch. I'm in like i never don't fall for this so because it's not a again it's not about dallas. It's about health. And i know he's had repeated health issues. I understand those that. Carry a health concern with him. But he's forty three up to two forty. That's still a fair price. For me on aaron hicks. How about you and aaron boone. Says that they're looking at him as the number three hitter in this lineup. Yeah that's what i'm saying. That's the main thing i mean. He's sitting to ninety four four fifty five five eighty eight in spring. Right now I i mean this is hard because like i just i just don't trust the health. I don't That being said like i. I mean he could be. How much do you have to trust with that price. You don't i guess It's co covered in that price. I him be paul. Spores one is a bench in one as a as a starting outfielder. At least at least the way it stands right now. But i've got capable guys like i don't want to derail this into cannot combine. Say already bought them up earlier but he still freaking cheap. It's ridiculous he might lead off for oakland by the way. Just as a you know Matter of fact there so It's going twenty six or twenty seven in the last two weeks and online champions shopping even more empire. I'm here for it yet. Because then you start looking like the outfielders going behind him jock peterson. Who actually i do like outside your lie. Pure law Who i don't i'm not one hundred auchere. How much longer jock stays behind him with the spring that he's having. Yeah yeah i think he's drumming up quite a bit to alex. Cure love mitch. Haniger who can't say healthy like were these guys with question marks so Got to twenty nine yesterday afternoon. So it's right. Start of the twentieth round. Yep i think that's fine. I think it's better than a twelve team league where there is the replacement value if he does get hurt. I think i'd be less likely to draft him in fifteen league. Where if if he does go down feeling like oh will. Now i'm having to look at guys like I don't even know like i haven't done fifteen. Well actually hang on. Tj fbi let me go to tgif be is Wire real quick honestly. I don't wanna be like. Oh i'm stuck with no more misora. Like yeah mike taylor like you know. These are I mean the those are the kinds of guys that are available. You're you're right But stephen scotties on my tj fbi. That's one four. Finding an outfield. Kevin care myers there It's boring but it he'll be two. I okay. Maybe but lake. You're talking about the number three hitter. The yankees lineup gets on base as well as anybody in the league. And i'm just going to be interested in that in any at at this price. I'm taking him in fifteen teams to. I'm taking erin hayes anywhere. I just think he's sure he might get her crag. Only one percents strikeout rate occur. You know Thirteen percent walk right. Like i mean you know guy in who's hit and well and spring got power. He's got he's got some speed. He doesn't Utilize it on as pass the time. I don't think you will much this year. Now plays a four year. He could be like a twenty seven. Eight kinda guy buys a full year. Aaron hicks a scoring hundred ten runs. Yeah exactly and so like. He's going at least no way behind other guys that are kind of projected for those totals. So like i said in a place where there's a good replacement value. I think i'm in places where there's not great replacement value. I'm less likely to take the shot. Okay you mentioned jack peterson. he's next. Plus forty one or two fifty six again. This is directly related to his spring. There's there's buzz that he's gonna play fulltime. Actually don't think that is particularly good. I don't know that i used to advocate. Wanted him to get the opportunity against lefties to at least see but he's done so little against them in his career at this point. I almost think that hurts more. That the nominal runs in rabies. You'll get just by volume. I don't know that they're worth it when he has a one ninety one to sixty six three ten wine against lefties. It's three hundred eighty five plate appearances and like i understand that. Mathematically it takes like forty two years for her Platoon splits to be you know. Mathematically sound as far as something to bet on. I can't be convinced that there's a lot to the. There's any excitement to be derived from. Jack peterson facing lefties. I mean last time we talked about peterson. Kind of pushed back a little bit knows all like he hasn't gotten the chance and then after the episode i went into a little bit of digging. He's got a fair unflavored. Flavors in his career versus left easing just has not been able to produce that being said they are letting go against lefties like in there giving an art and he's succeeding in those opportunities to so i'm also the six point. Four opponent quality that baseball reference number to try to quantify what they're facing in spring Seven is double a five is high. So he's in between that level there for his five home runs and five hundred batting average. I love jock. Because he's a he's a low-key mlb the show superstar like even when he was lebron's to start the year. There's just something about his swing and his car. The way plays in the game. So i have very favorable outlook on john peterson in general but in fantasy i again. I don't know that these extra plate appearances are that great for the bottom line because they can make the average even worse. Love the power. I want him to do well. I don't think to fifty six is cost prohibitive. So i'm okay with the plus forty one up to that point i would take hicks over. Have known they're going right by each other. So that's why i don't talk. I mainly here. What i will say about the left e. situ him going up against lefties Kind of situation. there are only five lefties. I believe yet in that division and they also look after young kim. I will have an article on that. By the way. I'm division protecting rotations letters and writings. How wade miley who's probably probably not starting year in the yard you know. And he's garbage. Anyway we're talking stephen brault Were talking carbs. Ross on his own team no even burleson pittsburgh. She's still with trevor williams. Traveling left to confuse those and then drivelines writing or anything like a lot of lefties and call up. none of them are good in that division. Now they're not going to just be playing division this year but are playing allies medical gear games are so focusing on something like that does make some sense so i like john peterson this year. I've always liked listen. I'm never giving up on jack peterson. That's like doj i. I don't have a problem with that. i really don't. I don't think he's too expensive. I all saying that the extra left he played. Because there's going to be lefty relievers is gonna come out for those who are going gonna play. He's been batting average risk in the past. But he's pop and if you can plan for that pop take him. I would love to see him. Prove me wrong to in spike a big year against lefties to the love that as well so You know right right. There with aaron hicks both playing third are batboys batting third on a high quality team. Would you rather have hicks all right. Yeah yeah brother. Peterson's he's just shown much much better ability to have a good batting average and the lineup is better cubs won good line substantially better tie france plus forty one to two ninety and i guess i don't to keep saying with a bullet 'cause most of these guys are that's why they're these these all these ranks here but nothing has deterred folks if anything he's getting more believers and i believe you are i count myself among them. Do i count both of us. You france guy. I have not been a tie. france. I i'm starting to buy back in Or last conversation about him And some extra digging. That i did had me move him up. Quite a bit india. We talked about him literally just talked about him on the last episode that we did together so we don't have to get to here because he was a he's a spring training standout But the bottom line. Say that's all because i don't want to belabor it since we did just talk about him. Checkout nine zero. Three for more. Is that i think the batting average projections are way low on him and he. That's where he could really deliver something than the two eighty plus range with decent pop and and and and the playing time you know he kinda reminds me of and this is partly partly due to just the The name the name comparison but remember tie wigan tin and how good he was player that had like a last name with a country. Look you talking. About jeff italy. No tie wigan ten. He had those peak years. There was popping twenty homers. You know runs and rabies commensurate with how much playing time he was getting but he was regularly hitting two seventy five plus and bouncing around the field for you. And that's kind of what. I see for france there and it was always a really valuable fantasy point or their to plug in so does right come out with france. I think he's pretty much like jonathan scope. Like i like. And i think that is you know A totally fine player I think he is gonna play a fair amount So like i. And i've got him still like seven slots below scope. But i think you could easily say that you prefer france and i wouldn't have a problem with that so wow Yeah i don't think there's any issue to to taking tight france at this price or even higher. There's still some room to go up. And you're not over paying for france gavin locks plus forty two to eighteen. This is almost certainly tied to the kind of vote of confidence that he got from. Dave roberts who says i really see him as an everyday kind of guy and know we really want to get him in the lineup at that level and really get him playing where he's a regular part of this of this team and so i mean on that obviously and again. I think we got another prospect here who to eighteen. That's not a crazy price and you'll probably bump up even a bit more. But as long as you're kind of staying in that fifteenth rounder. Later for gavin walks. I think it's a worthy gamble skies a premium talent on the best team in baseball with skills for days so he hasn't had great major league sample so far. One hundred fifty one plate appearances of seventy-six wrc plus but it's one hundred and fifty one blind appearances spread across two seasons and multiple ups and downs. I put virtually no stock in it. Like i'm not worried. And so i. I'm pretty big on unlocks. I'm taking him in some spots for sure yes You been up and down draft season for me. Gave him lex. Because i took him Super early in my first draft Of the season and then regretted it for months because it was all you know. The more i dug into more i was like i love the talent i believe in his talent I think he could be a monster at the major league level. But i you know he had one postseason plate of your like was it like in. I think he was left off the world series roster like And so like. I was like well. If they don't trust him in the biggest spots really gonna give him a role And now that they've said like he's gonna make this team in you know. It seems likely that he could have a pretty large role I'm right back on the bandwagon. Like i'm you know in him. Targeting him drafts in Let's see in my second base ranks. I have him twenty. Three above gavin locks. But i i i. Right above tie france But again like i think there is reason to say one thousand nine hundred i was just about to say like i could easily put him nineteenth. Yeah i i really like him. And i'm just again. That's a shot i'm gonna take potentially spike something massive because a jonathan scope esque substance will be on the waiver wire especially twelve teamers fifteen teams different consideration. I i still take him though in those leagues because the potential upside of that of that The that ability could really be so much more impactful in deeply too. So it's like. I think there's reasons to take gavin locks in twelve and fifteen. There are different reasons but they both set up to say. Take this shawn premium prospect on the best team in baseball. Yes they have players who can play if he flops. But i don't believe that his early indications in the majors put him to be a flop in any capacity. I take those numbers in. And i see them but i do not say like oh this is this is very damaging to gavin lux's outlook. Nope not for me. I'm still giving a full shot to be a monster. I think he'd be like twenty five twelve. It's like a two sixty two seventy batting ribs and the and we're just putting like realistic project out there. Obviously with a guy like this it could be so so much more. Like you know three hundred. Twenty eight and fifteen with like i mean depending on he'd have to scale the lineup but the runs and rabies would depend on on where that is but if he's kicking butt like that then he is moving up right now sitting four seventeen in spring. Yeah i get a hit. Every day is just getting hit by the way. Welcome back to welcome back to spring. Training alex bregman or welcome to spring training. Here's jacob degrom for your first at-bat how about that. And he made it. Look silly seems just popping. One hundred one or two atom jacob degrom is going to be the number one overall pick in a lot of lakes as he should be and as i and i have my katie set with one a lot higher than i did. Four other drafts this year. I i have no problem doing that. I would have no problem taking there. I think we did kind of get through the shohei ohtani discussion there. When when we talked about the two homers. So i won't belabor that plus forty two one seventy six we talked about. I mean literally just earlier in this episode so they were going to go ahead and kinda cap at their unless you have a final thought on otani but i think we got to the bottom of that unless unless you got somethin' i think that's about it right. There's a yeah there's our biggest risers A few more media episodes here as as drafts are popping up left and right got the big weekends coming up next. This one in next for drafts. It's been a lot of fun. I stream both my tj fbi are both my be pulse. Four leagues which was really fun. I'm so excited man. I just can't wait to see you streaming yesterday on. Wfp show which was fun to pope pope in on. I'm pumped in on it all on it. I was gonna bishop in on it. But i've poked in on it instead. i'll be doing livestreams for My last route. So i will lie. Livestream mind tire towers auction I'm going live through my. Oh see and then. I'll be licensing both my main events itself so fun man and i. I think we've really found some audiences for too because i mean streaming drafts for a couple of years now. The first time. I did. I think i got like four. My twitch regulars who are kind of like oh. I know he played fantasy or whatever i'll hang out. Yesterday was popping. The chat was zooming people love in it given their thoughts. You know who to take next. And i was like i did want to be mean by was kind of like straightforward like. Hey guys. I told me find what you put in the chat. Who you think. I should take this that and the other taking the opinions though just so. We're clear like these fun guessing game for y'all to guess who i'm picking but i've got my game plan here and we're not crowd sourcing these pigs did you should crowdsource on you. Just let my one draft where i crowd source like every pick but it would need a time than one million but anyway let's go in and we'll talk on thursday piece
Ep 3 | Breaking Point
"Have you ever tried to explain this world children to help them understand why some people don't always act like good people for thirty years. Mr Rogers Rogers help children all of us understand the world. He taught us how to be good neighbors. I'm Carl Wallace. The host of finding Fred from fatherly and Transmitter Mania Ania to podcast about the spirit of Fred. Rogers Checkout Finding Fred on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Murderer and Oregon is a production of iheartradio. The Frankie's laid Mike Tourist but not their questions about his murder. Here's PAT from here to Santa Fe. The state had him in closed casket but they hit him at the Supreme Surpreme Court building for a day and then they had a fabulous service at the Cathedral in an internment at the National Cemetery in Santa Fe so there's quite a ceremony of quite a funeral filled up the cathedral and it was beautifully. Done place a couple of times a year and put some flowers on his grave. Because there's a Kansas boy and I also have allowed pictures mid-ranking budweisers at Santa Fe. National Cemetery over here in front of the Dome Billy. After the funeral Kevin returned to Florida but the official investigation nations seem to be going nowhere and Kevin began to Bristle at the lack of progress in so many months. Mike was that we knew that. But there you were so many rumors swirling around. The world is full of Kooks cranks and Pat Dye. Were were very vocal. Because because the resistance because of the kickback in the struggle. Just to get the report but to get any kind of answers to find out what was going on any time I questioned. Who is this person who is that? Why do you need to know that and it was just this constant bullshit? What or who are you? You're just as brother. We'll tell you who killed soon enough. Don't worth and that's how and why Phil got hooked up with the Frankie brothers. Here's pat only columns talk slim talk to there are so many different people involved in this thing at perch brain after war but they're all interconnected because this. It's an incestuous Sousse bunch of criminals down turns out. There's an incestuous a bunch of politicians and political officials such too and I think a lot of them had stuff that they needed to get cleaned up covered up. Pat Seemed to be the one who is speaking for the family so I got in touch with him. He started talking about discrepancies. The case so I said Pat tell me more and he said the guy needs to talk to about. That's my brother brother Kevin. He's the one who's up on that. So we started talking the first conversations where you could see. He was very wary. It must have been O.. Three three or four months into the investigation after the murder. They weren't being straight with him. I think that's the main thing there are other things involved. They're trying to get the autopsy but he wasn't getting information from them. They just kept sort of shining him on saying trust us. Don't interfere with the investigation and more or less just said screw. It and told me I could go ahead and write about the organized criminal. Check out this murdering again. Kevin's back in Florida. Feeling feeling beyond frustrated when a friend stopped by. He was with a local sheriff's department and brought along a depressing update or firm of mine. The show akin surest fervent fan. They're going over with the deal. He says we're not getting as you said. They put a query up there and they said there was nothing to offer other other agencies that it's all being handled in house then. He gave Kevin a newspaper article mentioning a woman he thought could help solve. Mike's Smarter along with Your Business Card gave me the skills number neighbors Jane Doe. That's what it said on the cart. He said you need to go talk to this Gal. She helped us with a Listening person's case Nancy was spot on found the guy I said how so. How did she find it? Is it sees a psyche and I said Yeah but while he was skeptical well he was also desperate and Kevin decided he had little to lose. I called her up and I said do criminal investigations and to say what's your name and I said Kevin you she said okay Forces about I said it's about a murder. It was very quiet for a few seconds. And she said one of your brothers and I said Said Yeah. Knock on the door and she's in Mugo and very colorful lively lady. He said you mentioned something about your brother being murdered regardless of what you believe or think about psychics Kevin Heaven. He kept detailed notes of what you're about to hear. And many parts of proven pertinent over the years said what time was he killed and so I said they're saying somewhere around seven o'clock and her knows she's got seven seven five written down and then eight eight thirty says. There's something wrong with these times. I don't know if this is the proper time that he was killed but something happened at seven o'clock and then something happened happened again later. One person inside two or three people outside and there was a plan if they knew your brothers schedule. They knew it was going to be at at this meeting. There are people that he trusted that he shouldn't have trusted. And those very people are having a meeting and you wouldn't believe this but they're meeting right now. She then went into very specific detail about place. Kevin would eventually visit much later. There is a big house overlooking a lake in the Scott Gates on the front and some kind of security sureties system looking down on it like cameras or something and they're meeting right now talking about this the the ones that were responsible possible for it and I see a rose. I don't know what it means. And then she said something that caught Kevin absolutely off guard. They've got somebody in custody right now. They think it might have done it but he didn't do it but he knows more than he should know. His name's John K something you. As soon as Kevin laughed. He called the state police officer investigating the murder. Lauren Glover asked him. I said you have somebody in custody right now. Now you said Yeah. ooh Hoo snitched it. We got a leak in this. Who told you about that? And I said I went to a psychic and she said that he had somebody buddy in custody right now John Kay he says see Kraus says did she tell you he did edit it. I said No. She said he'd probably didn't do it but he had some information about it. Um Hum Krause wouldn't just proves central figure Mike's murder but a tragic tragic one as well. Here's fell from an early age. It'd been beaten by his father. They would punish him when he was twelve years. Old Time to a chair and beat him till he was blue It's in in the record someplace. And so of course. He started stealing cars at an early age. Jonny Krause dead and He was notably disturbed. Kid I mean he. He was barely average intelligence. If if that and terribly disturbed Besides krause also new disturbingly specific and classified details about Michael Frankie's murder one of the most obvious things that Johnny crouse knew that he couldn't have known unless he'd been there was the nature of the Frankie's wounds one stabbed mark to the left arm probably defensive wound and the fatal wound wound to the heart. And it hadn't been released to the Public Jonny Krause knew that in addition to that he said frankly had come up on him when he was breaking into the car. He tried tried to get away. He couldn't Frankie was too strong. They struggled he had a knife he started slashing at him and then he stabbed him and he turned and ran towards the old hospital across the huge green lawn there and around the green generator which is exactly. What Hunt Shaker? The janitor the state cops I witness said he saw on Saker was that maintenance worker at the Dome building who initially was the only eyewitness to come forward back to Kevin? You said he turned because he heard something like a grunt sound or hurt sense like like somebody getting punched in the Gut and he turned around he saw two guys facing each other. That instant one turned and ran this way and the other one went back into the Dome building but Krauss wasn't even on anyone's radar for the murder or brought in because of that. He got arrested recipe for the morning after the murder. When this hit the news he told some of his cohorts was living in a flop house? There that really stopped in it and he had to get out of town. He confessed with mother. He confessed girlfriend and he confessed to his brother. He went in an and told his parole officers that he'd seen the murder but what he said and of course he later said we just made it up. which he did was that he'd seen five Mexicans actually cans with murder and then he chased them? He said for for about Two or three miles before they got away and then he dropped out of sight again and was rearrested lasted a couple of months later in central Oregon and brought back and questioned again. And that's when that's when he confessed tomorrow neck. Oh ooh Randy. Martin was an investigator for the Oregon. Justice Department. Here's Kevin investigator assisting with investigation. And that's where MARTINET got the confession he brought in a polyphony who is with the FBI. Flu Men Dan and did the polygraph instead of having the state police do the polygraph because he knew they were shipped he passed. The polly passed the polygraph. Here's fell confessed. The FBI colleague refer concluded. Dad Prowess was telling the truth. Tom mccollum was the private investigator. Who ultimately we work for the defense of another man? The one arrested for Mike's Murder. Here's his take on krause. The Justice Guy. The TACO doctor was kind of a neutral. I was investigator he wasn't with. DA's office wasn't with state police and they were all going in other directions so I kind of weighed that. In my opinion of what he had to say and he totally believes cross did some of the things that he said were things that nobody would've known physical things and the way that he described what he did. Pretty right on. I mean I had read the police reports my read his stuff so I knew nobody knew. Some of those details seem pretty interesting and certainly warranted us going and talking to him. So you're feeling Elaine. was that krause new things. He couldn't have known unless he had been at the scene of the murder yesterday. Red Awards think one. She gets away of blessed if the kill Pill Dublin suburb of knock nery has never been the same named after three children went missing and forest and only one case after Johnny Krause's confession fashion. He even took the cops on a ride to show them where they can find the bloody clothes. He ditched after the murder during that ride. He also suggested a bit of a detour detour. The police took him in a police car to show them where he had buried some clothes that he'd worn that night and as they were driving down a street park avenue. I think it's called Two blocks from the don't building which is where Michael Frankfort Krause said if you want to go see where the knife was. That killed. Mike Frankie go over to nine forty two Park Avenue Cross was headed to Buck burge's only for some reason the the cops didn't go. That's what Dale pending the car. Dan was then. Da overseeing the investigation and to state date cops and Steve Gorham crosses attorney and they couldn't take two minutes out of their drive to the penitentiary to stop by nine forty two park avenue. Just check it out once and occasionally really wanna go over there johnny. No I was getting can't Turco. You'll soon understand the indignation behind the frankie brothers laughter. But I I here's spills take on the man who lived at that address Buck Burgess. What's important about doc? Burgess is that he is a completely dissolute dissolute criminal. His first charge in California back when he was in his twenties was for the murder of a one year old child he eventually got aww with manslaughter. He'd done time for burglary for assault He's a pedophile. Most recently he served time in Colorado for us Sexually assaulting a young girl is a very dangerous guy he was on parole. Just like Jonny Krause was out on parole and he was living two blocks from the Dome Building. It's worth noting that when Jonny Krause started getting beyond the simple story that he stabbed stabbed cranky when Frankie caught him burglarizing his car he started bringing in. Buck Burgess his name and Johnny Cross used to hang out with Burgess. He was he was a real fringe character. Even in the underworld he would hang out in the bushes around Bucks House and he was back living with at the time. A woman named Elaine Elaine. Young who are Kevin eventually talk to when he came out to investigate on his own. This wasn't the first time. Buck Burgess. His name had come up in the investigation. And it won't be the last the morning January eighteenth when they were doing a circumstantial concentric search where they were going adding bigger and bigger circles looking for any kind of evidence they came across. Elaine a young van. With Buck Burgess at the wheel and questioned. What he was doing there took his name and all that information and he said that he does some and kids breaking into his house and he was trying to see if he could catch him? But Kevin Believes Burgess was more concerned about being caught by Mike contention is that the shit didn't go down the way it was supposed to win. He was waiting for the cops to come to his house. Here in case Jonny Krause gross dirt on our trip to the Dome Building we drove Buck purchases then house to get an idea of its proximity. Approximately to the location of Mike's Murder Nine forty two park avenue the building with the tramway camera there. So Buck is here. You can see his house directly straight through there so he's sitting here watching his own house and then when he pulled off. The police came back through here. The state police were doing the search. I think they resisted by Salem. Cops found a knife life with blood on it there and it was almost like an in your face type of deal and they figured that he left it but they couldn't prove came back. I I think of animal blood but in the scullery when they're taking krause out to were Kraus says that he buried the clothing a new war. Dale Pinson the car. Steve Gorham crosses attorney Kennecott chief of security for Department of Corrections. In the at a guy named Stubblefield it was his assistant. Mike fired stubblefield and he was rehired. After Mike Got Killed in bucks personal belongings. He had the the little contact list. Bob Kennecott home phone numbers in that too goddamn thing. When did that come out? It didn't come out because I I finally got to Elaine. After the trial and everything else and after buckhead left in absconded he left that behind. He's got bought Kennicutt home phone number in their chief. Security Kennecott is in that car with Gourmet Dale Penn State police driver. While he was in there is he's he's got his ears on to tell the calcium. That's going on remember Scott mcallister. That was the assistant. Ag Mike was having trouble getting unused and Kraus. Says if you WANNA go by. The murderers house is at nine forty two park avenue. So bad is fuck burgess his house house and that's where Johnny craftsman go quite often. Elaine young used to come home from work. She worked up at one of the saw mills. She come home from work and Jonny Krause would be hiding in the bushes bushes here waiting for buck to get in and he'd never talked to her because she wasn't part of the group but he decided bushes and she'd go into the House. Say Hi Johnny and human saying anything. That kind of worship Pat. Frankie visited krause in prison hoping hoping to leave with answers about Mike's Murder I went to the penitentiary was across his lawyer and I had serious questions written out on the three five curry's rex showed krause through the glass. I didn't WanNA talk. I did want to record it when I was asking him what he was responding to and I asked him about eight or ten questions and indicated that he didn't do it but he knew who did and if he'd be willing to cooperate along those lines pat called all to fill with a bombshell Crou- shared these said of path. This goes beyond this goes to corrections. You're onto something. Pat told me I put that in the column it was after Phil Printed that allegation that the infamous car ride with Jonny Krause took place within the week. They'LL PAN PIN and a couple of cops took Jonny Krause out on an excursion. He said he'd he would show them where he buried his close at night and as they passed passed the house at nine forty two park avenue. This is just two blocks away from the Dome Building he pointed at the House and said if you want to know who did it or where the knife is. It's over there is pointing. Burgess has house and we have the transcript of this. This is what patent Kevin were ridiculing earlier. The man who claims to know who killed the head of corrections nations offers to take the police to the location of the murder weapon and they pass and that afternoon the record shows he. He came back and had a meeting with Deo pin and Sarah Moore who is the lead prosecutor on the case and said that he'd been approached by officials officials in corrections. Offered ten thousand dollars killed Frankie but had backed out of it and that someone else had them so all. This is going on behind the scenes and we don't know it until the records released sometime later after still wrote what an article alleging. The Corruption Krause had intimated to pat and confesses as much in greater detail to the investigators. Something incredible happens. CROUSE recounts his confession and is dropped as a suspect out of nowhere. It was on the news. You know the heater candidate. They've given him another polygraph. He passed saying he didn't do and Krause seems to have had incentive shortly after that Jonny Krause was eventually given immunity by the DA's office on condition that he not recant his recantation impatient. So it's not just that they didn't like his confession they didn't like the people his confession would ultimately lead to. That's what it looks like sure. Who is is Mike Pence? Who is Nancy Pelosi? They're two of the most powerful people in government today. But how they get their minds Sean Morrow and who who is the first podcast from now. This iheartradio I'll tell you the stories of the most important politicians in America and beyond through interviews with the reporters and experts. Who Know them and best? There is no aluminum. There's no deep state but the roar means people who is a cover everything from Senate majority leader leader Mitch McConnell's answering machine to Senator Elizabeth Warren's favorite junk food to where secretary of Education Betsy Devos husband went on their first date. WanNa know more tune in to who is on Tuesdays on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. It was around this time. Kevin Phil finally met in person What were your first impressions of one? Another is my dad was say we were Kinda Sniffen each other's ass. They quickly bonded over the issue. That interest in solving Mike Smarter seemed to be waning. Expected this uproar or an anger over my brother's murder instead of this. Shut the hell up. We'll take care of it. Don't worry where was the outrage and that's I've advert Goldschmidt about that. You know where is your fucking outrage. Why aren't you backing a reward fund? You're saying don't put a reward for him down the table. Why by with no response and you asked him that too in the paper? A why don't you do the reward fund and I never did Kevin had been instructed not to talk to the press but at this point he'd had enough and was sick following orders. I had to make a commitment made the commitment to fill because he had liked me and and they had not just once but repeatedly and then the the denial the autopsy report and saying that they couldn't trust us not not to leak the information as if we were at odds with them trying to solve the murder that we're going to do something to jeopardize today's idiotic and that's deal pen. Uh well that's what they accused him of later. Kevin finally went public with with his brother had told him that he was investigating is department that he discovered an organized criminal element that he's GonNa Clean House and they accused him of making ended up as if he would make up something to derail the investigation of his brothers case. I mean they set up a straw man so that they wouldn't have to deal with the basic question question which was was there. Corruption was Michael Frankie investigating corruption. which would have been easy enough to prove if they'd wanted to the rest of US could find evidence of it? Several people different papers. We're following it. And it was clear but they set up a straw man and they attacked Kevin for saying it and they tried to ruin and they did they thought. But what they didn't anticipate was Kevin would fight back through the relentlessness Nisa Bill Stanford who was continuing to write about the case for the Oregonian newspaper reporter Steve Jackson who is doing the same thing at the Statesman Journal oh creating a productive if somewhat competitive triangle to solve the case. I was constantly on the phone with either one of them all day. A- and it was Jackson I can tell you exactly what's going to come out of his mouth as soon as I get them online. Okay don't tell Stanford but and then he tells me something John Calls Fill is okay. Did you talk to Jackson says okay. Don't tell them I talk to you. But what did he say okay. Well don't tell him I told you this. I don't worry about that. But they kept lighting each other's fire. Here's Steve Jackson's since take go was the calmness And he did not by the the official explanation. At least you know he was questioning optioning some things and so I had some respect per pill early on as somebody who you know. At least he's not find the party line here and is asking some different questions. I recognized fairly early on that Kevin in particular was passing information from me talking talking to me and then talking to bill Because I would see this sort of pop up in those columns a little bit later and I knew he was down at Salem looking at some of this stuff but it evolved to a point of you know bill with comedy and asked what was going on in my investigation and we would talk and he would ask permission but he would run some of what I was doing. Almost as a sort of a preview of what was going to come out The statesman journal the next day. You'd have it in his column column back to Kevin So it was people that didn't take the Oregonian that were in the Salem area that would Z.. Jackson referring to of recent Columbine Phil Stanford benches that there was a drawing of the man. The pinstripe suit. They said on for six months. That's sketch the drawing. The man in the pinstripe suit which police initially chilly refused to release it. Become a huge piece. In the puzzle of Mike's Murder released a couple of others that were badly done and he could have been anyone but there was this other drawing that was circulating. And I call 'em today open the district attorney and I said why haven't you released it. He said well the law. Because it's just not very good. So what did I know but I kept calling and finally got in touch with her and she said Oh why not and so. She faxed it to me thirty minutes before my deadline to you know I had eleven thirty deadline for the column and I have the column already written but And I was going to have to go without the picture but I put it there. It was the this picture of Hispanic man well dressed. Well groomed mustache wearing the suit man in the pinstripe suit as with became known as and I finished with the picture at the bottom and they said who is this man breath and Phil would soon find himself a target to on a very public stage. That's what set off Goldsmith. And next thing I knew he was is holding the press conference and Radio reported called me. I was at my desk and played me the tape. I didn't know it was going to happen. He's saying issue issue after issue is in the paper And nobody has ever stopped to say. Where does this garbage come from? This is your impugning owning the character of the Oregon State police which is an independent investigation. Talk is cheap and so another conference press conferences conferences called vs. Suddenly you're being attacked by the governor of Oregon. Yeah Oh yeah. In a way it was sort of a heady experience you know as writing a column going toe to toe with the governor. They you know the reporter asked me for comment and I said I think the governor's getting bad advice. Well as it turns out it was at least that. I'm not sure that that's all of us but in the newsroom. Especially with my editors this had a huge effect because at the time Goldschmidt was the golden boy of Oregon Politics After these articles ran and Phil began to raise questions about the investigation and what the police were hiding. Da Dale Penn also turned to the oppress to discredit Kevin. Let's not forget that. They'll penn at the same time I was going along with his strategy and making statements to the press that He'd never even heard about this organized criminal element until he read about it in the paper. Meaning my column so In other words they were calling Kevin a liar and this was the beginning of their strategy. I guess to him as a disturbed distraught family member. Who's just gone over? The edge is making things up. I was twos foolish to realize that they were trying to make me feel like I was not so. I didn't go nuts because I realized that I was telling the truth. Therefore they couldn't guess liked. It was their only chance to discredit you. You for what you said about what your brother had been doing. When he was killed that he was investigating corruption? They had to attack you because they couldn't attack the evidence on on crushing and so they were lying from the beginning about that. I never said ANYTHING ABOUT IT TO KISS MY S. That's what they kept. Come the governor's office. I was using that as an excuse. To how dare Kevin Frankie say anything bad about the state police when they're the same people that clean this mess up the last time in eighty six And rearrange the Furniture Information Felon Kevin. Kevin would eventually uncover would clarify their confusion as to why retargeted. It's pretty clear. Now that by making him him the issue diverting attention from the real issue which was was Michael Frankie investigating corruption and even more to the point was there corruption in the correction system. That's what they had to avoid at all costs and that's why they went after Kevin. It's one of the more despicable things I've ever seen and going after a family member of a victim who is raising questions about his brother's murder. Sarah slate sounds like you guys are turning over stones and you found more than a few snakes. Yeah and and a lot of them are still out coming up on murdering Oregon town of Salem district back actress rank corruption Golden State of Oregon. It's gone defile anything's possible untethered. Evil you had somebody who was desperate enough to take the risk of killing the head of corrections you must have something really big time and tear. It was getting really really scary. Really bad. And he said he'd kill them and watch them die. And much of it would seem linked to the mysterious man in the construct suit murdering Oregon's hosted by Lauren Oren Bright Pacheco and Phil Stanford executive producers are no Brown Lauren. Break Pacheco and Phil Stanford supervising producer and lead editor. Is Taylor Sha coin. Sound design designed by Tristan. McNeil story editing. By Matt rental written by Phil Stanford Matt Riddle and Lauren Right GIECO music written and performed by the Diamond Street three players and mixed by Taylor's Aucoin with music supervision by Noah Brown murdering Oregon is a production
Introducing: Paper Ghosts
"A. Gruesome, discovery. Dining the last thing loggers widening interstate here in Connecticut. Every come on. But it certainly kissing. In. The local disappearing season of four young women. You've seen them tack to telephone. Poles on the Internet plastered on billboards the missing. I pray every day that we find Lisa. So he can go on. The murdered. She always told my mom on my twenty first birthday. I'm come by Dowse I'm going to be streaking you watch. Never? Never came. Unsolved cold. Cases. was. Marrying Josefina help us on a grave for many. A faded photograph on a piece of paper. The only thread of hope left. Peoper. Ghosts. I'm Ben William Phelps, an investigative journalist, true crime author in host of Paper Ghosts News investigative podcast from iheartradio for more than a decade I've been searching for the person or persons responsible for the abductions improbable murders of four missing girls in my knowing hometown. For over fifty years, each case has remained unsolved. I've spoken to anyone even remotely involved friends. Family neighbors detectives suspects you name it. But it wasn't until this past year that things took an unexpected. And after eleven years of investigating a breakthrough. Immediately just sat on the floor like somebody just punched me in the gut and then the tears just came in. In came. Answers, two decades, old questions in some closure these families have been searching for shirts. Jerry Tobacco's I know that that's the person that was there. I can describe what he's wearing I can smell them a mile away. Every day's like being lost in Imbo. Paper ghosts. Get it on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Introducing: Cadaver Gals
"Do you ever think about how you're going to die while okay. What a way to start the trailer gabby truly. I think i'm going to choke to death specifically on a cool ranch thereto. I'm definitely slipping in the shower. I'm for sure gonna die taking a selfie anyway. Hey i'm gabby. I'm taylor i'm nika and we're the host of a new podcast called gas. We're just three fun and flirty gals talking about all the fun and flirty ways that people expired like how three people died. Because of poodle in how. You shouldn't trust your ex boyfriend to help you get rid of body or how you could just be out boating with the boys in unison. Who knows we'll also find out about. All of nico's boyfriend sat is untrue. And we will find out the taylor's a horse girl i can gab. You the best one and okay gabby basically this. Podcast is kind of like sex in the city. If they only talked about dead people join us as being laughed but mostly crime in the face of death will also learn grow as people through the power of friendship so listen to cadavre gals for your weekly dose of death kit. Labral gals is a production of school of humans. And i heart radio out. December nine new episodes out on wednesdays. Listen to cadaver gals on iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast.
Introducing: Tomorrow's Monsters
"We all want to feel more. See fatheh leave long but brighter but what are the side effects will other repercussions when we give corporations direct access twat brains from iheartradio comes a mind. Bending new original sci-fi thriller. You see the plan is not just to launch a new product but to launch a whole new era starring john boyega mind apps software platform that fees directly to the human brain. And darren criss. It's a safe application with one very simple benefit. You never have to sleep again. Human trials. something happened he. Subjects will wait changed damaged and several people already into my brother. My something had to me in there to all of us. We all have more than one version ourselves. Sometimes it just takes the right stimulation to bring out the best one. Something kills his taken. Who are you. what are you something. Small and shrewd something does a sleep has speed sunday's field with pure hatred for the rest of us. Tomorrow's monsters from heart radio flint pitcher company psycho pictures and Productions also starring marley. Shelton clark greg and and gouge. Tomorrow's monsters coming february ninth to the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. Exposure one betty.
Ep 10 | Victims
"Hey this just in. It's officially fall. Means a lot of things to a lot of different people changing colors time to break out the pumpkins break out the football most most importantly break out my friends at truly hard seltzer truly has only one hundred calories but as five percent ab in only one gram of sugar. Sugar pour container. It's that can't miss drink of the seasons of pickup and try truly heart Seltzer today. Truly drink what you truly want murderer and Oregon production of iheartradio shortly after Michael Frankie's murder then reporter. The Eric Mason attended a press conference held by Governor Neil Goldschmidt at the time mason attributed goal Schmitz demeanor to Michael's murder Eric Recall's what it was like only later. Would we understand that. I think what was going on there. Was the governor thinking mild secrets grits might come rolling out of the closet. My own skeleton might be revealed here in the process of a murder happening right. You know in my inner circle and yeah. I think that might have been. Also part of how shellshocked Governor Goldschmidt was that morning was that he had his own deep dark secrets. And I wondered if there was more but you very look on his face received that money I'm Lauren Break Pacheco and this is martyring Oregon. We want to warn listeners. That some of the events and circumstances were about to cover involve sexual abuse of a minor but these details are crucial to fully fully understanding the narrative around Michael's murder on the surface. Neil Goldschmidt should have been eager to support a thorough investigation into the the murder of Michael. Frankie the newly hired head of corrections he personally recruited was dead murdered on state property but instead the governor went after members of the press for theories of corruption within the corrections department and dismiss the idea that Frankie's murder was anything more than random killing lang and he pushed back. Against the efforts of Mike's Brothers and Phil Stanford or really puzzled me at the time still puzzled me was why he had resisted so strenuously why he had resisted any real investigation into corruption in the prison system. First first of all the attacks Public attacks against me and Kevin whereas this garbage coming from but as we know now there was a great deal of talking his office. We have the memo Komo that shows that he wanted to keep the FBI out and he wanted to keep state Senate from investigating corruption in the prison system so why it didn't make any sense. Because has the corruption we were talking about had occurred before he'd become governor and he's a very smart politician only had to do was blame it on his predecessor Goldschmidt was by many accounts ineffective governor his economic reforms and policies brought the state out of a nearly decade-long recession and he passed worker's comp legislation and promoted children's literacy a second term victory was a given then he made a stunning joining announcement newspaper reporter. Jim Redden recalls that day. He unexpectedly announced. He was not going to run for reelection in the middle of his term term. And I was there at that press conference. He did it and it was a shock. I mean it was a stunning announcement. G Cole Press Conferences. And we didn't know what he was going to announce else was gonNA run for election. Nobody's said anything. Nobody even asked a question. I mean in. Turn around and walk out of the room. Here's Pulitzer Prize winning reporter for the Willamette Week. Nigel J. Quest There Portland in his twenties appointed by President. President Jimmy Carter we transportation sectors thirties. David Broder The Washington Post columnist. Who Sort of the leading national political columnist of the day had identified defied him and Bill Clinton and Governor Kean of New Jersey as sort of the three Democrats who might be president some point so it goes from it was really a at least for political insiders and national figure of Great Promise? He was widely expected to run for a second term in nineteen ninety and he did abruptly announce early in that year that he wasn't going to seek a second term. He was going through a divorce at the time and the press accounts time attributed needed left agreeable of uncertainty. Nobody was sure exactly why he wasn't going to run again and sort of remained an enduring mystery Oregon Oregon politics Y had this person who was a phenomenon in a very successful. Very effective politician. Just walked away in the prime official political life. Here's fell again Laura's odd for sure I mean he was a shoe in for a second term. The Public Blake explanation. Recall was that he was separating from his wife and he wanted to spare the children. You know you always have to be just a little little bit suspicious. Whenever a professional politician says he's resigning are dropping out of the race for the sake of the children Neil Goldschmidt secret. It turns out was pretty horrible one so I was supposed to find out what he'd been doing doing since he left office. And in the course of reporting on what he had done in the fourteen years since he left office I got a tip that there had been in an issue in his past involving a baby sitter and So that led me to try to find out what had happened back when he was Portland's mayor the Nineteen Seventy S. What Nigel uncovered was something beyond unexpected? It turned down that he had over a period of a number of years. That numbers sort of remains in dispute but at least three or four years Sexually abused the neighbor's daughter. The young woman was either thirteen or fourteen again. That number is in dispute as well when sexual abuse began but in either case she was well under the age of legal consent. So when we will. I'm a week. Broke that story in two thousand and four. It was a real bombshell because Goldschmidt. Although he had left politics this was the king-maker in Oregon. He was the most influential private citizen and state and many of the elected officials corporate officials goals in the state of their position either directly to him or indirectly to him so he had a sort of an unparalleled in Oregon Network of influence silence and so it was a major story at the time during his time. As Mayor of Portland Shortland Neil Goldschmidt was regularly committing statutory rape with the girl who was barely a teenager. The OREGONIAN caught wind of J. Quizzes reporting and attempted to get ahead of the story. With what seems an apparent spin margie. boulay was a columnist for the paper. At the time the Oregonian found out probably because Nigel Jay Quist contacted Goldschmidt to answer questions but the Oregonian found out will Emmett week was going going to break this story. And whether they wanted to beat them to the story or whether they wanted for some reason to print goldsmiths version. I who knows. But the Oregonian brought in Neil Goldschmidt to a meeting with a hand picked group of journalists and editors and Neil Goldschmidt arrived with a statement he read about his health and his heart problems quoted doctors. There's the impression a lot of people at the meeting was that he was on the brink of death seriously seriously ill and then. There was a brief mention mention of a relationship that Goldschmidt had had with a fourteen year old girl back when he was mayor of Portland and then the subject was returned to goldsmiths health. I I have heard a recording of that and I took notes. I was not allowed to keep it. I was not given a transcript. I just was allowed to sit down and listen to it when I was working on my story later but the reporters in the room were very respectful of him. They were very concerned about his health. I do not recall hearing anyone ellen asked questions about the relationship with a girl and if they did the questions were not of serious concern but the Oregonian and softball handling of Goldschmidt would elicit public outcry. After the Oregonian story ran in Wilmot Week story ran there was was huge public response. The OREGONIAN got a lot of negative response because the headline used in the very first story about Goldschmidt commits admission of a relationship was that he had had an affair quote unquote an affair and people were rightly rightly outraged that it had been depicted in the Oregonian as an affair win. It was child-sex-abuse it was rape of a child. Here's reporter Nigel. Jake was again. A lot of people were very Disgusted by his conduct in thought. It was terrible crime and we're very angry. There were also a lot of people who thought the story number should have been that it was history and that it was no longer under current or relevant in that there was no public purpose to be served by publication Throughout this podcast we've seen the victimization of people caught in the crosshairs of politics and corruption lives twisted or destroyed by those with great power and little accountability in two thousand and five market belay again interviewing interviewing the now grown woman who had been the underaged victim of Goldschmidt who was still one of the most powerful men in Oregon after the stories had broken a short period of time passed. And then I got a telephone call at the Oregonian from a woman about whom I had written in in the past is she had been the victim of a crime and she did not want the perpetrator to find her because the perpetrator had never been identified. And so I- protected her in the ways that I was able to do that. Ah using journalistic ethics in my own conscience. So she said I have a story for you. I am friends with Neil Goldschmidt victim and and she wants to tell her story but she doesn't trust anybody in the press and I told her that I thought she could trust you and she wants to meet you. Marquee met with Goldschmidt inspect them. Elizabeth Donham a name. She hesitates to us even now Elizabeth felt she could trust Marquis and agreed to be interviewed. She was forty two but she seemed older in some ways and younger in other ways. I believe that her emotional maturity stop the day. She became involved in a sexual relationship with the mayor of the town home. Her parents idolized. I'm not sure Sh. She was ever able to fully mature after that physically. She looked much older than her age. She was very unhappy with the way she had been portrayed but she was being being portrayed as someone who is a throwaway kid before he ever approached her and that wasn't true she was very very intelligent. She was a beautiful writer. Her she was insightful. She was generous. We had an agreement that she would call me because because she was traumatized because she had been used by so many people. The last thing I wanted to do was to use. He's her. It could be no one will ever believe this but the truth is I really didn't give a damn about getting a scoop. I just wanted her story to be told because when the story was written it was always from his perspective. Elizabeth grew up in close proximity to Goldschmidt and his inner circle which made her easy prey. Her parents were huge. Fans of Goldschmidt. They lived in the same neighborhood she even even said frequently that her parents idolized him and so she grew up idolizing him. Her parents she said worked on. Neil Goldschmidt S- campaigns campaigns for The city council end when he ran for mayor he was a frequent visitor to her childhood home. And that's where the abuse began. It was her mother's birthday party. She remembered it very clearly and Goldschmidt and she went down to the basement and there was sexual behavior behavior at that time she said and how old was she. She said she was thirteen and she was very clear about that. She said the sexual predatory behavior by him toward her from that point on continued on a regular basis. She and her friend told me that after school will in the afternoons they would go upstairs at Elizabeth's house and Senator Particular Window where you could see the street and they would watch for the mayor's driver's car that took him home every early evening and when the car drove by 'cause Goldschmidt lived in the neighborhood if the lights on the car flash. That meant that later that evening Goldschmidt would come to her home and late at night night. She would leave the door unlocked after her parents went to sleep and he would arrive and she would greet him and they would go down to the basement and have sex. He would rape her. He was mayor of Portland and flagrantly. Wielded that power her girlfriends From those years middle school junior high school Early high school when she was still before she dropped out so she could be more available to him to have sex during the day H. She told me her girlfriends said they saw him grope her. They saw him groping her breast in front of him. You heard that correctly. The young vulnerable girl dropped out of school so she could be sexually available to Goldschmidt at any time. She told me that she went to Saint Mary's Academy. Let me downtown. Because it was a couple of blocks from city hall and she would be more available to him that he had suggested that then. She told me that she dropped out of school so she could be more or available to him. He told her according to her You're so smart you don't need to go to school. I'll give you a reading list. So she was in City Hall a lot and even has he was stealing her childhood and innocence. Goldschmidt manipulated her with false promise of a future together. She believed for a long long time that it was an affair that he was in love with her. She told me that he said to her. He would marry her when his children children were older because he didn't want them to have a broken home while they were still in school. And Elizabeth couldn't even turn to her own family for help or protection. She told me the first person she told when she was fourteen or fifteen was her grandmother and her grandmother reacted as if it was a great honor. That's such a great man. Would Fall in love with you and have an affair with you. Then later her mother found out shortly after after that and she told me that her mother went on a bike ride with Neil Goldschmidt and said I understand. You're having sex with my daughter and he admitted it and she said do you think that's a good idea. And he said probably not and he said it would stop. But it didn't. It was is heartbreaking portrayal. A child knowingly subjected to abuse by the people who should have been protecting her problems. It's human nature to hate problems problems. But why is that after all problems inspire us to mend things. Ben Things make things better. That's why so many people work with IBM on everything from city. Traffic to ocean plastic new schools to new energy flight delays to food safety. SMART loves loves problems. Ibm Let's put smart to work visit. IBM DOT com slash. Smart to learn more Elizabeth got older. She began to fully comprehend. The damage. Goldschmidt had done to her. She got angry. She looked could her life and her life was in tatters and she wanted to make something of herself. She wanted to pull her life together. She did not have the skills to do that. She was too damaged and too sick really sick but she still wanted to try and she knew that she wasn't making it so she said she went went to him and said I need to get a degree. And that's when he began giving her money for tuition for the community. College in Seattle began pulling strings to get her accepted into places and she started telling people she started telling cops in bars. She'd be in a bar and she'd be drunken should start telling cops and some of those cops contacted me and told me that she did and it was getting back to him and she told me that she was given cash payments. This is long before the the attorney got involved. She was given cash payments is to pay her rent and to pay tuition to keep her in Seattle so she stopped telling people in Portland. That's what she told me eventually. Goldschmidt Schmidt's lawyers got involved. It was agreed that in exchange for her shattered life and silence. Elizabeth would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars Marquee boulay conducted most of her interviews with Elizabeth between two thousand five and two thousand seven but the Oregonian refused to published margie's articles without fully naming Elizabeth even though she was a rape victim and they kept demanding more sources and information even though it had already been extensively and meticulously researched by black. I couldn't understand why they were asking asking for more documentation. More witnesses more direct quotes more use of real names people who might have been willing to speak to me off the record or be quoted without names. I couldn't understand why they were making it so difficult for this story to be told because if you went back and read the early stories about Goldschmidt side of things they just printed his side. I could not figure out why they would not run the story without her name. Uh I later learned that. Several of the editors at the paper were close personal friends of Neil Goldschmidt S- and I believe that they we're trying to protect him. It's just my opinion. It wasn't until four years later in two thousand and eleven that the Oregonian finally published the story story and only after Elizabeth had died. I was told that she died of complications from her alcoholism but there are so many ways she could have died as a result of the emotional and physical crises. She endured she believed and I believed as a result of what Goldschmidt did to her Goldschmidt on the other hand did not seem to suffer substantial Daniel repercussions. He just walked away. I mean yeah. The public knew but his rich and powerful friends have stuck with him to this day. He owns a beautiful handful home in France. At least last I heard he still did. He owns a beautiful fabulous home in the hills of Portland. I'M NOT GONNA say. He got off Scot free. Because does his reputation was badly damaged but The statute of limitations had expired otherwise I doubt he would have come forward and admitted did the Oregonian or to anyone. So he could not be prosecuted. His wealthy and powerful friends stuck with him. They even gave him a party hardy to make him feel better. After the stories were first published which sickened me and made her cry. People continue to cover up up and not say what they knew because they had benefited from their ties to this powerful man who rewarded people kept a secret in my opinion and in her opinion opinion the fact remains Neil. Goldschmidt was only allowed to abuse Elizabeth Donham because multiple people around him. Were willing to look the other way. Some of them were indebted to him. Others had their own transgressions to hide. Here's Nigel Jaquith again. And I think the answer to why that could remain secret for so long as the influence on the power that Goldschmidt wielded so he had many proteges. Rotich as as I mentioned governor Cuomo Gosse was one but there are many who Marin states utilities he was close to everybody who mattered in Oregon and most of them were people who owed him something and who had risen with him so they both had a reason that they owed him something not to divulge hold his secret but they also I think perhaps in a more interesting fashion would be admitting something about themselves if the person to whom they owed so much was shown to be this flawed criminal. If you know essentially a child rapist what I would say about them if the person that gave them their starter or help their careers was a terrible person. Phil has another take. If as we know now all these people knew about it there were some who certainly didn't have goldsmiths best interests at heart that wanted to use him or to put it another way blackmail with this information and in fact. That's what I think is is probably the best explanation for why he was resisting. Any decent investigation of the Frankie murder at the time law enforcement the state police would have known about it. In fact I I think the Portland City police knew about the girl back when he was mayor is driver was signed by police intelligence. There's a reason why police departments do this So they report back on. What the mayor's doing in fact we know that the driver would drive past the girl's House and Blink the lights signal yes. Of course the Portland police knew it. And there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't have used it against him get raises to to get whatever they want so here he is. He's governor and once again his driver his security man Bernie Giusto. It's an officer with the state. Police do we really believe he wasn't reporting back to his bosses and there was something else one more thing that has come out That that came out in the press and was all over the newspapers at the same time. And this probably explains Twi Goldsmith was separating from his wife. At the time the driver was having an affair with Goldschmidt wife a great deal of publicity on that state police officer Sir who was his personal driver was also having an affair with goal Schmitz wife. Yes I mean. He's he's talked about it with me. He told me that Goldschmidt Wife told him that Goldschmidt was negotiating with the girl and her lawyers to keep your mouth shut. I also spoke with her roommate. Roommate and roommate told me that during this time Elizabeth would call down to the governor's Office get Goldschmidt on the phone and scream you write me you owe me. There was pressure on Goldsmith. Keep a lid on at this time. And would that have been the same time as the Michael Frankie Murder Investigation Only us at this point. We want to stress that we've reached out to Neil Goldschmidt Multiple Times Times by certified letter and voicemail for statement or interview and to the state. 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While it's hot in taste the best thing to happen to fried chicken since well fried chicken and then there was perhaps the most public victim of the murder and subsequent investigation other than Michael Frankie himself Frank Gable. At the time Jay Quizzes Goldschmidt Schmidt article was published in two thousand and five Frank Gable had been in prison for nearly fourteen years for a crime. He remained adamant he didn't commit. When Blaise article was published? It had been nearly twenty years but threw out gables incarceration. There was someone who wanted to make sure his story stayed on the public's radar no matter what Phil Stanford and gabled red fills articles in the Portland Tribune over the course of the years so exchanging letters back and forth. I came to see frank as a person who was much more than just someone who'd been wrong. Obviously he'd been wrongfully convicted. But here here was someone who is really suffering from the beginning. It was easy for me. You to empathize use overused word with Kevin and PAT. I talked to them and I I could see what they they were going through. But now I I was able to see frank as well and I'm sure it just kind of drove home that there were two lives here. That were lost. Mike lost all of his and frank was actively losing his life in prison. Oh to victims for sure. It was through their correspondence that Phil began to grasp how much gable had lost and the true extent of his suffering suffering as his life eroded in prison he's kept those letters which span decades December twenty seventh two thousand three. Hello there old friend. After these many years it almost feels like you and I are friends. I read and reread some of your articles. Dozens of times articles. I anyone I thought would listen to it or help me gain my freedom. But if you don't have the money you can't ever by an ear to hear there is now no question. He underlines underline that I can prove I did not do this crime Phil. I spent several years going over everything over and over. I can prove the state police and the DA's office knowingly knowingly set me up to wrongfully convicted me and use statements. They could've easily proven were not true in Gables. Desperation and in hopelessness during his fruitless appeals process is heart-wrenching. I feel completely in the dark on. What's going on that after fifteen years? Could this truly finally be the end of this insane nightmare. Oh God how I hope and pray it is Phil. No words can express what it's like to go through something like this. A former former matthews her and drug dealer Gable thought to clean up his life in prison told my homicide stop. Everything changed my life. I've done that. I've stayed clean and sober and life is better than ever. I will not let you and Kevin Down Phil I will make you all proud and glad you believed in me and fought Talbot. Life with new clarity gable also began to understand the the extent to which he was manipulated and set up. This case of mine proves tweets. We'll say anything the tweaker who made up all the lives against him. Of course the dog me so hard. Fill one minute. They had me crying the next mad and yelling then crying kept me up. All night is talking about how the when they first gave him the polygraphs you said they caught him. Line asking me questions like Frank. You were so spun out on drugs could you have done it and not remember. I told him hundreds of of times no way I did not do it. I was not there. I don't know who did it. Over and over sergeant. McCaffrey got so mad. Because I kept saying that that he choked me until I blacked out but I still not admit to something I did not do. It's only because I was raised so hard and had suffered so much as a boy they could not make me say something or admit something. I did not do because I am strong. In my heart. From years of abuse he wrote fell about his childhood. His background personal things about himself. Beyond the case and beyond his conviction gable was just a man. Wrongfully accused wasting away in prison. Bill would that sent him stamps and books. He even shared Gables prison address in one of his articles so people could send him Christmas cards. Dude are you insane. I started getting all these cards from people in one. How to clipping of your article you did and had my address in it? I honestly can't tell you how good it felt to get so many cards and words of support support. Thank you though. I'm very shy person. And after all I've endured tend to isolate a lot not trust people but I have started writing them all. Thank you note note. I'm not going to let what happened in the past. Hinder my life in any way. These people were kind enough to reach out and showed kindness to someone they don't know at all especially to a person in my situation but Phil's articles and public support couldn't change the relentlessly depressing in crushing reality a frank's life sentence. I just wonder Phil if it will ever end. I've been so depressed as of lately. Some guy hung himself several months ago. And that really bothered me a lot. You wonder if he had the better idea. It's all bothered me almost more than I can do her her. I'd never let another person die. Never stabbed someone like that. Never let someone just die or leave them hurt guest. That's what bothers me a lot. They have people thinking. I'm a piece of shit like that. You Know Phil what I really don't understand is how a system meant to bring justice. Allow a man to spend nineteen nineteen years. Now wrongfully convicted. How do the people of Oregon allow it because it really doesn't affect their life so who really gives us should anyway? They're going to dinner a movie campaign show on who honestly gives a damn about a guy like me who they don't know but soon gable would find a small seat of hope that would blossom into something much bigger on the next murder and Oregon. This case has been controversial from the start art. When Gable was arrested for the murder he claimed he was set up? I believe that I walked into a complicated drug ring and really don't know how complicated was until now and you think maybe see that drug ring had something to do with Frankie's murder. I believe so. Yes he has. Filed multiple appeals then a lawyer emerges willing to take on the nearly early impossible odds talked to he said Yeah. I cried like a baby. And I I said me too. Murdering Oregon this hosted by Lauren. Bright Pacheco Phil Stanford executive producers are Noah Brown Lorne Brad Pacheco and Phil Stanford supervising producer and lead editor. Is Taylor Chicagoland. Sound designed by Tristan McNeil story editing by Mao rental written written by Phil Stanford Matt Riddle and the One Bright Magenta music written and performed by the Diamond Street players and mixed by Taylor coin with music supervision by Noah Brown around additional music by tristen McNeil archival elements courtesy of Cagey Portland Oregon the station behind the podcast merge to kill murderer and Oregon production of iheartmedia situated on the beautiful cable beach mar is a spectacular resort destination. In the Bahamas with your choice of three oceanfront hotels the Grand Hyatt Hi IT S. LS and Rosewood. This is the place to find your perfect blend of luxury relaxation and a lot of fun. Whatever you're looking for you can find it at Baja Sal? Mar The Bahamas. 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"It's two thousand six. And emily at twenty one year old american as a retreat center in india immersed in a week long silent meditation. She climbs up to the roof of the retreat center. It's at four in the morning or so and wraps it a scarf or under her face and jumps off the building her death. I was shocked and confused when i heard this story. How can a spiritual practice. Meditation make you do that. Some would argue that through this meditation. Emily reached some sort of enlightenment. But if that's the case then what's the cost of enlightenment death. I'm carolyn slaughter the host of a new podcast called. A stray am also seeker. It's just about living in the light. Meaning the truth of who. You are a lot of people that will hear this. Podcast will be seekers. Don't go to india. Because this is a venus flytrap for your vulnerability after emily's tragic death. The media linked her to a phenomenon called india syndrome. A psychosis the befalls. Westerners in india on a spiritual quest. She's not alone in this diagnosis. In the podcast. I investigate the disappearances and deaths of other westerners who have gone astray. And what's been called the spiritual bermuda triangle. You know whether. It's a permanent loss of pat. Tom law oil. Whether you've lost them forever or you haven't or it's just a what is the lost is no evidence in the loss. If we go to col- today he's not gonna be the same person that left. So i like what is that. John even look like and to be honest. Maybe maybe it's better off. You don't call and my own class to investigate. Their disappearances has led me to some unexpected places. Identifying drowned bodies in the holy river ganges befriending a cannibal hunter and reexamining my own relationship to this idea of enlightenment. Were you offended by it at all. I am a little annoyed by it by the term and yes in rome to believe that as a gender definition of place. I feel as reckless and irresponsible. Stray examines the cost of spiritual awakening and asks. How far would you go for a nightmare. Astray is a production of school humans. An iheartradio listen to a stray launching. A march third on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever your podcasts.
Ep 6 | Rooster
"Hey minion and we are excited to announce that we are releasing our own podcast series one fan interview the band in partnership with iheartradio. ARGH lady make sure to follow along each week as we choose one fan to come hang backstage and asks questions. Check out one fan to interview the band on the iheartradio APP Napa podcasts. Or wherever you get your chest. Murder in Oregon is a production of iheartradio Tim at video arcade and I thought he was the cutest most charming guy that hung out there and so pretty much right away he asked me out. Liz God love was tentative. ADDS girlfriend and mother of their son. They they met while they were both in high school and quickly spiraled into an intensely passionate dysfunctional and dangerous relationship. One that would end in a violent silence. Death I'm Lauren Pacheco and this is as murder in Oregon in our last episode. We learned that Tim Natividad also known as rooster was thought by many to be a likely suspect in the murder of Michael Frankie. We also learned earned his drug addiction propensity for violence and the twisted relationship. He had with Carrie Rothschild one in which he acted as a kind of broken guardian rescuing her from the drug fueled nightmare that was her mother's house and introducing her to a whole new nightmare of drug dealing dependence. It's and murder during that entire time. Natividad was also in a relationship with Liz. God love who started to see the evil behind is good looks almost immediately while like I said I thought he was handsome and pretty much our first date though. Oh He's showed a lot of jealousy we've doubled dated that night and he was super jealous of his own brother. His own brother was talking to me a little bit too. You much pissed him off. Started driving crazy in the car and yellow lettuce brother. Yeah this is my date. You have years back there. It really scared me but not enough to deny his attraction photos of Natividad show is strikingly handsome. Young man with dark hair and dark eyes didn't scare me away because Tim he always came over and called and he was just like over me and he was so nice in the the beginning you know he had the excuses. That is stupid. Brother China. Pick up on US data all the time and you know so. Put that to bed just sixteen and caught up in a crush lizzy Nord Red flags and refused to see the patterns. Natividad demonstrated from the beginning has abusive something that became much. More evident during the course of their relationship was young. Honestly the jealousy tend to display it on their first date continued and he quickly became possessive too young and inexperienced. Liz Mistook that intensity for I love. And when I would try to break up with him he wouldn't have it. No he would not have the no. I tried a few times and he would stab himself cut. His wrists was razors. Who Do all that in front of me? And then of course he tells me not to tell anyone but a lot of times my sister was there. Keep going to the bathroom and start cutting his wrists or I was at his mom and dad's house. He was in his bedroom cutting his wrists. He came to my work one evening and I noticed him in the lunchroom in the middle of the night it was really crowded and I noticed him watching me. Only God needs you get over here. You get downstairs now so I can fly downstairs after we get in his car he pulls out a big knife to start hacking himself in one squirting escorting everywhere saying he's going to kill me just stabbing himself so I get out of the car running and get hell place. com took him to the State Hospital for the night and he got up the next day. So that's how I lived with him. That's how it was. It was very scary aggressive but Natividad behavior wasn't just triggered by their relationship. This brother said that when they grew up in California early on he he was diagnosed schizophrenic. I don't know if that's true. I have no clue so the drugs could have been on drugs did it. And this was a similar pattern to it. Carry Rothschild experienced with Tim. His drug use led to Liz's drug use at Ed very young age. and Liz says it was spurred on by Thames own mother. His mom had turned US onto Chris. Tops speed early on like I think Seventeen than their little tiny pill that was like meth. It kept you up for hours and hours ours. Everybody was using them back then. I asked Liz about Tim's upbringing to gleam insight into his life and how he wound up in Oregon aside from drug use. Violent crimes seem to be part of this family. Like I say he did have his mom and Dad Six brothers and sisters. His Dad worked two jobs to support the family. The mother had a boyfriend my friend all the time on the side which disgusted and angered Tim. He didn't like of course his mom got into some serious trouble on California cornea and Tim like that. They had to move to Salem Oregon for her protection. She was in the witness protection program. Evidently she had delivered the money for the hit so she did some prison time for that. That's why they came to Oregon a few years into their violent and dysfunctional relationship. Liz found herself pregnant. And how did he react to that. He was happy he was fine with that. I was in shock. My God. Yeah he wanted onto eventually have another child with me. Her shock stemmed from the fact. She didn't think it was possible. In the first place he said there is no way shape or reform could ever have children. Never Tim said he was sterile. He was born with his intestines outside of stomach and he said that it had messed up his system for life that he was tested. And there's no way he could have children so he was happy when when I got pregnant signature and clearly anthony has his because I don't cheat on people and Anthony Looks a lot like his dad was Natividad. Faithful will no way no heck no. I learned later that he had a lot of girlfriends. I didn't know that see. I was at home taking care. The baby being a good girl while he was out selling drugs or whatever is doing I had no idea. He had other girlfriends mm-hmm after their son was born. Thames behavior continued downward spiral. Liz's sister. Becky was married to Vince. Taylor one of Tim's childhood friends who we spoke to in a previous episode. He was also a fellow member of the Kaiser Mafia the drug dealing in gang based in a nearby suburb of Salem. We lived right next door to each other. I lived above and they live below. It wasn't a quiet person. Everything was just going to hell after a while. You know and then you would start seeing Liz. Maybe had a bruise on her face or something like that you know at the time fence was living with his sister becky. Tim wouldn't allow Becky to come to my house. We lived in the same complex and he wouldn't allow me up there to visit a her. He just kept my family week for me. It was just odd if he leave and I needed food in the house I would sneak to store as fast as I could got. Caught wants pulling he. He pulled him at the same time. He was screaming at me. And it scared me. Sorry grabbed Anthony Aeneas star running toward my sister's house took a big set of keys through Sohar nailed me hard with the keys. My son in my arms sobbed and I think we call the police that night. I believe we always called the police because we went upstairs and lock the door and put furniture under the DOORKNOB. Kevin wouldn't come out eventually. Things got so bad that Liz her sister events made the decision to flee the state with her small son on. Here's fans I guarantee you know he's a lesson round. He was that far gone in his mind. You know he thought everybody everybody was a cop or trying to get him or trend. Woods questioning me I go what the hell are you doing. You know I mean things are weird. Wants to patch down to Mike Mike on your or anything like that. He was just he was gone. Tim Got extremely dangerous. We really dangerous holding knives to my throat. Certain Shokhin meow like the police were really. There's nothing they could do. I filed restraining orders. Tim would get locked up for the day and and get out. It'd be worse so they couldn't trust the restraining orders anymore. I called Tim's probation officer. I called the women's Crisis Center. They all said if you can and leave the state. So Vince in Becky said let's go. Let's get the heck out of there. We went to Colorado where we were or scared to death to be. They're looking for work. They're still afraid of Tim. Everyone was supposed to be quiet. Not till tomorrow as uh well one of my friends said. Tim went to my last place of employment and threatened her with the gun out on the front porch and said tell me where she's and she did so then my phone call was Tim's coming. He's coming to get you so forget scared. I may giggled today and it's just nerves some frustration it it just nothing was working. I didn't know what to do and less wasn't tape. It adds only target was threatening to kill me my family visits. I mean it was getting really really scary. Really bad. And he said he had killed the man who died just drugs and guns in his behavior. It was time for us to go. We had to go. We were scared for our lives. Married ears scared for her life and trapped by her fear. He'd harm her family. Liz returned to Thame Natividad behavior remained erratic back but it was after the time period of the Frankie murder. That things really hit a breaking point it was really super paranoid. Angry agree sad mad Alana crying and shaking and not letting me out of sight out letting me have have family over keeping the blinds shut and saying. Don't let anybody and do not answer the door if I'm here I'm not here. And he wanted to move to bend my house in those two weeks. He's telling me all this. He wanted to go to Hawaii so all these plans right away. Oh my God who was packing in the guns who's bringing guns in the house. A lot of machine guns pistols Hey everybody Noah Brown here executive producer of murdering Oregon and true crime is absolutely a passion of mine but occasionally you can get a little dark ark exploring all of these cases so an I need a break. Something of a mental pallet cleanser. I like to play a game. Called best means it is a challenging challenging puzzle problem solving game that also has a story. It engages your brain in a fun approachable way. It's fantastic for casual players of all ages. You can spend as much or as little time on the game as you'd like lately. I've been finding myself with a tiny bit of downtime needing to unwind and I'll play it maybe a couple of times a day I'm I think I'm at level twenty three but that's the thing it keeps updating adding new levels every single month so there's always new world to explore engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Download this five star rated mobile puzzle game on the apple APP store and Google play for free. That's friends without Out The our best fiends Jay bell a former detective for the Marion County Sheriff's department we members responding to a call during that time I was on the road and the NRA your car and I was assigned to make contact Economic Beers apartment house lancaster. It was ended up being the girlfriend of Natividad also known as Rooster Street. Name came downstairs and she told me that all four retires lash. And I'm looking at this and I'm thinking man lie you know that's pretty good knife to cut through sidewalls of four tires and there's no blood heating cut himself that concept. No evidence around the ground is just like they walk up and stuff down. So that's like one pope job and then she tells me the thing that threw me. She says I think Natividad did slash retire as we told me. She said I think he did that. She says we've been fighting a lot. And then she goes on a little further. Tell me he's got stolen forty. I five automatic in apartments right now and so I said well is there way I can get it. She says no because it would burn me and it would. He didn't probably the killer so backed off on nope. No maybe I could find something off the street to maybe do a warrant to get undertake and as before we we know about the two that out anything to do with any any suspicion of Frankie in fact I think it was. It was just a few days after Franken was murdered. If I'm crack her by this point timms abuse physical verbal and extremely effective. I felt worthless. Tim would tell Anthony Year. Mother's bitch ear. Mother is no good. Your mother's going to heaven. Sue the types of things he would say to my son his son. And when you have a violent drug addict in front of you telling you in showing you believe do you believe it. With every ounce of anything you haven't things deteriorated Syria rated to the point where listener came to check on her waiting until Tim wasn't at home and decided to take anthony fearing for his safety and and I opened the door I saw was her lateran and she saw the drugs in the guns and the knives in danger and took me and she said you're not getting back. No Way I understood. I understood it but tim did not and responded about as well as you might expect so so she had for two weeks and I was getting a lot of pressure from tim to he need a tattoo. Set is going to kill me and take you out to California and hide them underground no body Freddie whatever find him again and he said if he had to he would kill my sister Karen and her husband to go get anthony. I did give him. I could tell that my soul was dislike. I wanted to be done forever anymore but I got a burst of energy and wanted to protect my family so I ran grabbed the gun off the bed and was headed out. The door headed out my door which had a bunch of locks on it and I couldn't get it unlocked. I was terrified. Knew it was gonNA kill me. Grab that Diem done. The incessant violence the abuse and threats against her family and her son finally pushed Liz over the edge and when I heard him come up behind me a turned. We said Liz. But I'll tell you I snapped so weird because I didn't care anymore. I was ready. I told God you know I'm ready is going to kill me I worry just just please please please let my sister. Karen be the best mom to Anthony. You know saying my prayers. I felt dead and just felt felt like so hollow worthless. It's over over over and I couldn't tell you what snapped how I snapped can tell you I remember picturing how he was gonNA shoot everybody at sisters and then take my little guy was going to be scared to death on a shootout. He said he'd kill her in. The cop the follows him them to California. It was Oh hell no so I turned into Sean and a bunch and I can't believe it to be honest with. I can't believe it happened. I can't believe I didn't die. I actually shot him and two weeks after Michael Frankie's murder Tim Natividad. Ed was dead at Liz's trial. Her attorneys admitted multiple records of domestic abuse into evidence and several love. The cops who arrested Tim during those disturbances showed up to testify. Also on the stand was Liz's neighbor. who heard the sounds of Tim's violent went and abusive behavior firsthand? Oh my neighbor next door to us. I never met her in my life. Listen to it all night and all morning so she was there which was a shock to me and no idea she was on the stand and said I heard him clearly beat her that night and until her who was going to kill her killer family. I heard the gunshots. I heard it all before the trial. Liz spent spent three months in jail. But compared to the hell she'd been trapped in it was almost an escape ultimately I was acquitted. Thank God it just all came together. I talked to myself I looked at the jury and I said you know my attorneys can help. Tell the story. This is is how I lived. This is my proof. The restraining orders the police officers my friends and family women's crisis center. I mean I did everything they gotta was acquitted or my God God. I remember that day I was so oh free but I did still cry for a year because Tim had to die over all this. I cried Craig per year although I had my son and I wanted to be stable and I tried to be strong and stable for him had to get it out of my system and I went to my priest and confessed that I shot and killed him to save my life and he said that God forgives me. I felt really good. I ran into several of Tim's family members after this and they helped me tight and told me you that they understood to me. Had some anger issues and drug problems so they didn't hate me mm-hmm but after Thames death pieces that connected his timeline to Frankie's killing began to fall into place for Liz. Starting with a large sum of money he'd supposedly come into soon after Frankie's murder which meshes with an earlier story from Greg Johnson and that Natividad had received a payoff after Frankie's death. Tell me where the money came from. But he did come into money. We later found out that he hid it in the fan of the bathroom. The apartment were Tim died. There was a story that Tim's brother got forty thousand dollars out of the bathroom bit of money and I didn't know if it was a rumor that incident would have happened while Liz was in prison awaiting trial. I didn't know sister. Karen is the one that clean my apartment out when I went to jail and carrying goes. It's so weird. Less the apartment manager came in was yell L.. Let me for taking part the bathroom bit and I said I didn't do it. You know you leave me alone. I'm not taking their permanent part. And getting Elizabeth things out of here. I I call him that. Large sum along with Tim's taunts about having killed a man continued to haunt Liz. We really wanted to figure era. Who killed? He said he had killed someone. I believe. It was at my attorney's office when we realized there were two people that died and Michael Franken was one of them. Uh I remember vaguely seeing that on the news a whole bunch you know the the higher up was murdered and you see the police tape. You know an the whole of attention to it but then something happened. That did catch attention. The release of the sketch known as the man and the pinstripe suit and then the composite during the came out the newspaper and on the news to me in mice. My sister carrying it looked like Tim. We were shocked and said Oh my God it looks like ten. Interestingly enough as we've touched upon earlier that sketch barely made it into the paper. While I was calling around around trying to get the picture that I heard the state police were circulating among corrections employs. Trying to figure out who this man in the pinstripe suit was you know why wouldn't they release it to the press. If it was of interest to the state police wouldn't release it. I called Penn and he refused to he said now I I said why he said because it's not any good. This is not very good. Did he elaborate on what he meant by not good known Not to me. I personally didn't care whether it was good or bad. I wanted to get it so I kept calling and finally got a copy from Vinton when you first saw that sketch. What were your thoughts? Wow what a great drawing. What's really good and in fact it had been done by Joyce Brian Brennan who was one of the top three police artists in the country? It was excellent you when it comes to meet quality makes a huge difference in texture and taste and even though it might be better for you any environment a lot of higher quality meat you find in. The grocery store is just too expensive for most people's budget thankfully there's butcher box much. Your box believes everyone deserves access to high quality. Humanely source meet at an affordable price. That's why each month but your box. Ships curated selection of the finest cuts. Right to your home. Choose from one hundred percent grass fed and finish Ashby's free range organic chicken heritage pork wild caught Alaskan salmon and sugar and Nitrate Free Bacon. No antibiotics no added hormones loans. Just meet the way meet should be this black Friday. You can get butcher boxes. Ultimate steak sampler. That's a total of eight free stakes plus twenty dollars off your first box walks. Just go to butcher box dot com slash iheart or use Promo Code Iheart at checkout. That's butcher box dot com slash iheart or use Promo Code Iheart a checkout God. Kevin was back in Florida trying to pursue his brother's case with long distance. Phone own calls. which in those days meant racking up thousands of dollars and phone bills he'd been told by Governor Goldschmidt to direct his questions to Dale Penn.? The the district attorney assigned to Michael's case but pen and Kevin didn't exactly get along. He was a sniveling. mealy mouth wouldn't answer a question directly when I say mealy mouth in the first meeting that we had was with my brother in two in. The governor the Governor's reception office outside of his official office and I was requesting the copy of the autopsy report and address that request Goldman and he's a is the main to ask ask pointing to Dale Pen and they'll pay goes on this mealy mouth game and and I said is that a no and and then he couldn't even say no no Kevin felt he was fighting uphill battle with pen from the beginning especially over getting Mike's Autopsy. You finally they agreed to give me a copy of the autopsy report and he sent it to me in Florida and was four pages that was probably eighty percent blacked out. Redacted basically said Mike Frankie described him and that he died stab wound. Everything else blacked out. It wasn't just the Middle Finger. It was a smirking while a kick in the ribs. Here you go sucker. I guess the you know he's thinking is I'm thirty two hundred miles away. What am I gonNA do? But Kevin and his older brother Pat refused to to settle for the redacted report. They wouldn't settle for anything less than the complete autopsy even if they had to fight for. It here's Phil Show. They EH hired a lawyer. In Salem. Steve Classic has been with them. All this time to sue state officials to get an unredacted copy of the autopsy which which under Mara they were entitled to back to Kevin. We did finally get a full copy of the report but it was through through having to sue the state of Oregon and all the individuals involved including Dale Pin and the Government Goldschmidt and with peanut them to bring him into court to justify withholding the autopsy. Report when it's in the Oregon State Law it's called the Brady bill that the members of fame player entitled to a full copy of the autopsy report and any other medical information to have the district attorney and the head of the State both denying what's written into the law of the state of Oregon into the constitution and to have them plumped at just the arrogance of those fucking bastards is what grips me to this day. How could they? How dare just flaunting their authority Kevin Recalls the day? They finally received the report. We were Steve Classics Office. Three forty one St Street downtown Salem Oregon just a few blocks from the courthouse and Steve did picked above. But I guess from Dale Penn's office brought back to the office where bad my were waiting flown in for the Asian. Here's pat stay on getting the unredacted unredacted version. Or you're almost to the day I was up here and I got the full copy of took that to New York and set with Dr Michael Michael Baden who became famous years later the Oj Simpson case and he read the thing that got us calculator out and he told me that Mike probably didn't love more than about six six minutes that he was fully conscious about two minutes and losing consciousness after two minutes the because of the severity of the wound the nature of the wound that he he would not have survived even if he'd been in hospital it was through and through just destroyed or part of his heart during the time the family was fighting for the autopsy they were also getting numerous twisted and anonymous tips claiming that Mike had been mutilated or murdered by ritualistic torture that was months before they finally confirmed that there had been no ritual type it was purely defensive defensive wounds and attack ones and no other signs of mutilation but it took shit six months to get that so you're living with these movies in your mind the Trojans the feed fire that you don't want letting the first place so that was the first thing that I wanted out of the whole thing was to verify that Dale tell me the truth when he says there's snow mutilation because del pin had a tendency to lie and then to be able to identify the nature number and location of the ones and how the entry wounds made my sort of an angle and in part of the autopsy reported. There isn't mentioned of what you see when you see did the autopsy photos and there's obviously a picture that shows that make was identified. He got a pretty good wag the head the photos were the worse. Because I knew mice brains scenario running it a million miles an hour is he's bleeding out known as thinking this gamely that's Sharing the unredacted autopsy and photos of Mike with their parents was heartbreaking for the brothers seen scene two people in more pain in my life hurt. Have worried about my kids. That scares me if I ever had to get to. That I'd probably put a bullet my head And then adding the insult that they were only shared with Mike's Family under duress and with the threat when they were given this unredacted copy they were warned not to let it leak. If it leaked they would be prosecuted. That was the atmosphere at the time. That's incredible so. Pat Takes the autopsy back to Kansas City and shows it to the old man and they look look at it. They have questions since Dale pennant assured them that they'd they'd run it by the FBI. The old man called someone he knew. Clarence Clarence Kelly former director of the FBI who had also been chief of police in Kansas City and asked him about it and Kelly came back and said no they never talked to us. And that's when the old man's world sort of fell apart. He said they've been lying to us. They've been lying to us. It was as if not only killed his son. They sort of killed his faith in how things work out how the world works and he was crushed so dale ten. Uh told Michael Frankie's father that he had run the autopsy past the FBI and that never happened. That's what he found out. Yeah he apologized to me. said they'll pins been lying to me. He's been lying to us and it crushed. My Dad that that was a professional is the greatest generation. Thirty years in the army colonel. Full bird colonel is a man that put his trusted God and country and could not believe and I think he felt that. I was being in disrespectful when I was questioning authority. He was sad that I was right. Let's go back to revisit. The resistance to releasing the sketch of the man in the pinstripe suit which now in light of the autopsy and FBI issue seems more noteworthy. Why do you think you were met with resistance? That's another big puzzle here but it's such a strange inge place for them to lie. Sometimes you you have to figure out what's going on by the lies. They tell him that that that was definitely ally on pens part. It's almost as they were afraid that someone would see that sketch and recognize the person. Yeah that's about the only thing you can conclude Kevin Agrees bitched at him about not releasing the picture I said why won't you release it. He says it looks just looks like a lot of people. No and that's the problem. That was the problem when it came out. I looked at it and no. It doesn't look like a lot of people bits. Let's is certainly eliminates a lot of people and these are the rain and fills column was horrible. It was like a one inch facts from thirty years ago which you know like doing little pencil Batson thank so everybody that saw the column says it looks like Shit but but they were forced to put at the real one and once people. Well you've seen the real one looks like a photograph and that's when Liz and her sister stir saw the drawing of the man in the pinstripe suit. It looks like Tim Native at it did to me and my sister immediately immediately the woman who had lived with Natividad believes he was the man in the pinstripe suit. The rest is really nice. Sometimes he loved to dress really nice. It was coming together for me. Started coming together okay. Tim's claiming to have a lot of money. He became so paranoid and violent worse than ever before started collecting. Dot's for myself so liz went to the police. It's hard to remember exactly but I do recall frustration. Gratien guys I think Tim Kill Michael Franken. Need you to look into it. Tim always carried a knife. Tim had a huge knife collection action. Tim was violent. Tim told me he killed somebody. I think it's Michael Look at this composite dried. And how did the police react to to this bombshell. They laughed and said do. Can't convict a dead man. There's nothing we can do here. That seems a pretty odd response from the police particularly securely sense it could have led to the truth. Here's PAT steak longer than why was on. The more chance was whole thing. You're going to blow up in their face Komo or go away. And the easiest way to end the investigation into Michael Frankie's murder And make the whole thing go away find someone to pin the murder on a patsy On the next murder and Oregon an unlikely suspect is arrested. Saudi so many other folks that are probably. It's just didn't make sense and charged with the murder of Michael Frankie. Mike Kieron's a convict from the Idaho State Penitentiary attention claims Frank Gable told him he killed Frankie during a car burglary blindsiding everyone including Frank Gable. I walk into a complicated drug ring and really don't know how complicated it was. Until now murdering Oregon's hosted by Lauren Bright Pacheco and Phil Stanford executive producers are Noah Brown Lauren by Chico and Phil Stanford Supervising Producer and lead editor. Is Taylor chicane. Sound design by tristen McNeil story editing by marital written by Phil Stanford Matt Riddle and Lauren. Bright Pacheco music written and performed by the diamond street players and mixed by Taylor's Aucoin with music supervision by Nicole Brown additional music by tristen McNeil archival elements courtesy of K. G. W. in Portland Oregon the station behind behind the podcast urged to kill murdering Oregon. This production of iheartradio I'm Zoey Deutch. I'm Amanda Seals. Hey there I'm Bellamy young and today I'm GonNa talk about what I wore when I ought to for scandal. Welcome to what I wear when production of Glamour and iheartradio. I'm your host host Perry Samuelson each week. I'm sitting down with a woman. I find fascinating to talk about what she wore during a pivotal moment in her life. Listen to what were when on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts.
Ep 9 | Darkness
"The completely redesigned twenty twenty four explores the greatest exploration vehicle of all. Time won't take you to the moon or the bottom of the sea but those places have been explored already instead instead. It's going to take you on explorations that everyone can relate to but few have conquered like complicated interstates new towns on vacation or grocery store trips with cargo cargo space to haul everything you need or winding gravel roads to get to the birthday party for a kit in your son's fifth grade class. The all new twenty twenty four to explore the greatest just exploaration vehicle of all time. Murder and Oregon is a production of I heart. Radio in two thousand and four fifteen years after Michael Frankie's murder an astounding document one that could have aided greatly in frank cables defense was was discovered it was a sworn statement signed and witnessed on December eleventh nineteen ninety five months before gables trial but it was never presented in his defense or his subsequent appeal. In fact it was buried and forgotten box of evidence until it was unearthed Kevin Frankie the Linda. Parker interview was extremely tolerant and very very very very disturbing. When I read that I could did not believe that this was in existence at the time that frank was tried but it wasn't presented to the courts she was never called was goes beyond belief? Linda Parker was a former secretary and girlfriend of Scott mcallister. That's the former former Oregon assistant attorney general who some felt really ran the state's department of Corrections before Michael Frankie got there. We have a copy of that nineteen eighteen ninety sworn statement and it reveals more than a few very concerning skeletons and Scott mcallister's closet. I'm Laurin Brad Pacheco and this is martyring Oregon Hello I'm here to see Mr Gentleman Jim. Radin is a reporter for the Portland Tribune and one of Oregon's most seasoned journalists the in person. He's a jovial disposition that's balanced with a direct quizzical stare that peers out from behind dark mark wire rimmed glasses. Like Stanford Steve Jackson and Eric Mason. He's been covering the Frankie murder for three decades. Here's his take on Scott mcallister. Scott mcallister was a longtime department of Justice Attorney for the corrections division and he had been there assigned to them for quite a while and it. It had been practiced in the department the Justice to rotate attorneys. Because you don't want him getting too close to their agencies. They need to have that arming objective perspective but he stayed a long time. He's I guess he liked the work and it's possible that other attorneys just didn't WanNa do it because you're dealing with criminals all the time mm-hmm Radin like the other journalists and colleagues of Frankie. We've interviewed was aware of apparent issues. Scott mcallister she he and Michael Frankie got into some huge argument Shortly after Frankie arrived and shortly before he was murdered mcallister reassigned and quit. Left the Department of Justice and moved to Utah. Aw that's where mccallister would meet a woman named Linda Parker. She worked in adjoining system mcallister when she was hired by the Attorney General's Office in Utah. It wasn't long before she attracted mcallister's I and unwanted interference in her career. We were able to contact Parker. Who agreed read to speak with US under the condition? We not reveal her current name or state where she resides to. This Day remains deeply afraid of Scott. mcallister I was a paralegal for the attorney. General's office and we were housed at at the Department of Corrections. Right outside Scott Office. He was the inspector general and Dan worked for the Department of Corrections Solo. My first impression was he was arrogant and he was always always getting me to do things for the Department of Corrections as opposed to the office and then eventually he he had me transferred from the. AG's Office to the Inspector General's office without her knowledge or consent. Can't Linda was then thirty six and struggling through a difficult divorce mcallister. Quickly attempted to take advantage occur situation. He kept asking me how not necessarily on a date. He was always come for dinner or make dinner. Or you know stuff like that. I was at a really rough place at the time going. Being through a divorce I had a young daughter had worked since we hit adopted my daughter so it was my first job back opt in to the work field and I had a very low opinion of myself. I didn't think anybody would be interested in divorced. I single mom so in that sense it was an ego boost and initially. She didn't see mcallister as manipulative opportunist. And the two dated for about two months in the summer of nineteen eighty nine at the time for lack of a better explanation. I wasn't mature. Sure enough to see what was actually going on. But his true colors soon became apparent and or even on display Scott hit made a sign in Utah for his office door and it said the iceman Prince of darkness and and he was very proud of the nicknamed that he hit assigned to himself. I don't believe that he just came up with that when he moved to Utah. Aw that had been his attitude in Oregon and wherever else before Oregon. While Parker new mcallister had recently moved to Utah from Oregon. He was never clear as to why he said that he was offered a job. From the -secutive whatever of the Department of Corrections and that it was time for him to move and and once he was in Utah. mcallister transferred a loyal Oregon. Work Buddy to work with him in Utah Corrections and they socialized outside of work. There were a group of people over it Scott's house and he had brought another gentleman over to be the warden at a prison l. was the name he was a police officer earned Oregon and when Scott I brought him down to Utah he gave them the position of Director of Civil Litigation for the Inspector General's office so I don't know how the hierarchies are in the police field atop pretty damn good promotion. It was during one of their gatherings that Linda Parker. I heard talk of the Frankie murder neighbor talking about how they couldn't believe it was still l.. In the news there was a lot of laughing joking about it. The fact that he was such a low life they were trying thank depends something on Scott and his crew Scott had said that he may have to go back up to Oregon to take take care of some business man. It was a little bit more intense. What were your impressions about how mcallister Allaster felt about? Michael Frankie. It was a burden off of his back. That Michael was dead. Yes at some one point. mcallister complained about having to take a polygraph test. He said all he needed to do was take valium. Or some sort of Downer and met he could control his pulse and be any polygraph that was ever presented to he. He kept a variety of hills in his office. He was always taking something after. The polygraph Scott's He wouldn't have needed it. It could've snowed the guy without it and then I would ask him if he had anything to worry about and he said no there had been over a hundred forty incidents of violations and misconduct during his seventeen years in Oregon and and not one had ever been indicted him so he knew the ropes. He knew what to do. She had made the comment several different times James that he was well protected that nothing was tight diem here. Kevin and Pat Frankie discussing that polygraph. Only graph the district attorney. Dale Penn had Arranged a polygraph team quote unquote. Okay and I believe it was the local police state place in Utah They did it here no no they did it there here at his office. They sent up a list of questions to ask them and that was it. They didn't give them any background on the case. Any background on the individual Just a here the questions to ask him and followed protocol to ask them these questions and send us the results and according to Linda Parker. He took a sedative to dull. His responses cut off the Hisen and low peaks of his heart rate prior to the polygraph jeff and he was expecting a team from Oregon that come up and really grim and it didn't show up in fact I was just a local Utah authorities with a list of the three or five questions and he was bragging about how easy it was. He said he could have passed it without medication. Dole Parker but while mcallister may have been cavalier about the polygraph or being linked to wrongdoings he seemed very interested in Frank Gables trial. He was getting updates on the trial. What was going on what the news clippings had to say and later later it all made sense because he had a girlfriend and Oregon who was working with him Out The time her name grace and she would come down to this camp and on one of those visits she brought him down some boxes of stuff and in the beginning. I didn't know what we should the boxes you know that they had a lot of conversation and Alba's hills. Go to person for information like others loyal to mcallister. Grace would leave Oregon for Utah at the time. I thought it was odd that he hit brought so many people and put them in high up positions within the Department of Corrections and then when things started evolving and I started getting manipulated even more it was like all of these people were his minions I I mean if Scott told him to jump they would bow down and ask where and how high it was almost as if though they didn't have nope a mind of their own at the same time. mcallister was increasingly pressuring Linda into embracing an unusual relationship arrangement enjoyment and the concept of group. Sex what he had started making suggestions about starting a corporation and what this corporation was is he wanted multiple women So you would be the head of the corporation and everybody would live under one roof and at first it was an later confirmed what he was after was more like a Colt. So you would would pay in proportionately to this corporation and that would be for household expenses. So he wanted you know what three summer for some whatever it was it I I thought it was a real joke and I completely turned summa will then a couple of days later I go to work and I get this Bouquet of flowers on the desk and the card said. Here's to the corporation it'll be a beautiful corporation nice life. And that's when I started getting real nervous because also at that time he hid moved. Grace Dalla Alan from Oregon to become his right hand person and to entice Linda into this unconventional lifestyle. He implored Lord to use drugs and he gave her a box of tapes to watch pornographic tapes. He said that he wanted me to get comfortable. The bowl with the idea and mad after I watched I would know that there was nothing wrong with that type of activity so oh he left my apartment and I put the box in the closet. Never touched it again until I quit. Uh Five G. is changing business. 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And it's at this point in late July of Nineteen eighty-nine that Linda Parker overheard a conversation at Scott mcallister's home. It happened during a dinner gathering that was sort of a welcome party for GRACE'S MOVE TO UTAH. Scott Scott was talking to grace and herald. He said It was really stupid about about Frankie's murder because it was supposed to look like a suicide but was really hard might language fucked fucked up and Herald at the time looked at Scott Scott had said something to the effect. Everybody that knew him knew that he meaning Frankie never used the door. He was found laying in front of an so herald and Scott. I went on and was further conversing about it and Herald said that it was no rehearse because nobody light frankie anyway and now that Frankie was out of the picture herald could use the Oregon Department of corrections actions again as a reference. Because nobody would be there to soil his name. Scott just kept saying the the job was really. They couldn't get anything right if they tried. It was supposed to look like a suicide and they botched it and that's exactly what Linda Parker conveyed in her. Sworn statement signed in December of nineteen ninety five months before Frank Gables trial even began. But there's more as Linda tried to distance herself increasingly uncomfortable with mcallister his cohorts and to sexual demands. When I completely made it absolutely one hundred percent clear that that was not going to happen with me anyway? He transferred me from the executive offices to presented. The point of the mountain in their mail broke my world shattered. Once I started pulling away and didn't want anything to do with whatever's Scott. Wanted or how he was manipulating the others. That's when I started having problems comes in the mail room at the prison and shortly after that I left the department completely and I still had my my final paycheck and all of this is taken place in the beginning of ninety and mcallister's a-listers retaliation against Linda for rejecting him didn't end in the workplace. He contacted my ex husband and told him that he would work with him to have me claimed an unfit parent to take my child away from me and in in fact when we had a custody hearing in court he showed up in court to back. My ex-husband that's the dictatorial. Addictive nature of this finally. She'd had enough and fought back by suing Scott mcallister for sexual sexual harassment. When I brought a lawsuit against God and he was served with papers with the judges said that we could proceed with trial? The next morning I went to get into my car and all four tires were slashed. A few days later there was an envelope that was avert to my house and told me to drop the suit. Or you're dead. Uh a few days after that my apartment was broken into net was in the news. Because of Scott's Scot's position but he would have been the only person that knew where I lived. That could have told somebody to intimidate me. And if he can do something like that to a woman that doesn't have any power imagine what he could do with his his connections both with inmates and inside the prison system imagine what he can do to people that wrong him but the attempts to intimidate Parker into stopping hirsute didn't work. The judge hit found that there was more than enough evidence to back my allegations and he said that he was setting it over for trial L. and that afternoon my attorney got a call from risk management saying that they wanted to settle she would receive ninety ninety five thousand dollars from the state in an out of court settlement for the sexual harassment suit. She filed against mcallister and the Department of Corrections Inexpensive Taxpayer Tab from calendars indiscretions. But it was validation for Parker that proved to be that I was naught imagining all of this that I wasn't going crazy and remember that box of pornographic tapes that Scott mcallister gave to Linda She still had done the. US Attorney found out through the Department of Labor. That I had this box of information and so they asked me to bring it down so I took it down to him. And that's when I found out what all was in the box Was Children Women with women women with men it. He's like a for lack of a better word or g type environment and those tapes originated from a shocking king source the evidence for other cases in Oregon. That should have never left the state Scott. mcallister Allaster who've been amassing child. Pornography seized as evidence in Oregon cases. And he had transported across state lines after. I gave him my box. They did a search warrant on his apartment and may found more of the same stuff. Kevin Frankie says. Some of those tapes even still had evidence tags on them because they were taken from jail L. Pornography cases the FBI agent. That I talked to told me that. He had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of porno tapes. In uh-huh specially built case in a closet knows home. Linda Parker would serve as a witness in the child pornography case against mcallister ultimately he'd plead guilty to reduce charges while he lost his ability to practice in Utah. mcallister basically received a slap on the wrist for felony possession of child world pornography serving just seven days in jail during October of nineteen ninety. He was untouchable and I was so disappointed so so extremely disappointed. I think he lost his license per a few years but then when he moved out of state he was able to get it back again. And it's like he uses the law manipulates the law just like he uses human beings and manipulate late. Human Beans Scott. mcallister is still a practicing lawyer. Today we've reached out to him multiple times and he's ignored request for a statement or interview. We're grateful to Linda Parker for the courage. It took to share her story. I mean I'm sitting here thirty years years later. Just thinking about him and I'm sitting here shaky and I've tried so hard to take back control away from him and he relishes the misery that he brings to people he just absolutely relish is in and many believe Scott. mcallister has never been properly investigated in the murder of Michael Frankie. Here's Steve Jackson. The reporter who covered the Frankie case as it unfolded for the Statesman Journal you know if you look at my investigation It's sort of like a tree near the you know the trunk of the tree and that's just as the stuff we know And then there are branches from ten Scott. mcallister was on one of the branches and that the branch was is that if there was corruption in the prison system. If there was something that Michael Frankie was about to expose if he had some names and that sort of stuff That branch held. You Know Scott mcallister. They'll Neil Goldschmidt own. A number of people took Peterson. Dave collie right. Dick Peterson Dave. Cali were Michael Frankie's number two and three in command at the Department of Corrections. The two men who claimed they did a meticulous search search of the Dome building the night his body was found. So you have that branch and that were a viable branch to investigate and there were certainly things about out any and all of that branch including Scott mcallister in some of his behavior and some of the things you would hear from witnesses that would lead you to say okay. This is at least worth investigating and putting the bed and making sure that we've closed this chapter. Here's Phil Stamford's take a yeah for me. The big question is Twi Frank Gables. Defense didn't jump all over Linda. Parker's statement once they got and they had it just just like failure to get Natividad Krause into the trial while it could have made all the difference in the trial to get that sort of information but also the botched suicide is a missing piece of a puzzle that ties in some other elements that we already know. Yeah the the mcallister's very puzzling statement. Here what's so important about. It is is that he says they fucked up. It was supposed to look like a suicide. Well what is he talking about. It seems to dovetail with other information we habit from the two other department of corrections employees. who were also on the outs with Frankie? Dick Peterson. Who is the deputy director called Kevin? The morning of the murdering said. Your brother's been shot. Well he wasn't shot he was. He was stabbed of course and then Collie a collie another assistant director. who was with the Peterson that night to a supposedly searched the building and said he was afraid to go into Frankie's office because he'd find him dead? Created mcallister come up with with the idea that it was supposed to look like suicide. That would be a very interesting question for investigators to have asked him but of course they never even interviewed him. Do you think it's because because it would have hit too close to home which looks for even as many in the press were choosing to dismiss the possibility of corruption and people like mcallister as players in Frankie's murder as conspiracy theory they'll stanford refused to and was writing incessantly about it. That didn't sit well with the politically loyal factions at the paper. He was working for at the time. The Oregonian Oh yeah got into it with the newspaper Libro working for at the time they attack me in print while I was still employed there after the verdict it. It was an unusual experience. Let's say over the years I mean every time we'd bring it up again and take another run at them they would come back. The OREGONIAN had committed themselves to defending the state's case which was really defending the notion Russian. As as I see it that things like this couldn't happen in Oregon and Phil believes it was easier for the Oregonian and to attack him. Then accept the possibility that Michael Frankie could have been killed by corrupt officials and that an innocent man could have been found guilty of that murder by a corrupt system. It was very important to them whether they understood their their unconscious motivation or not. And I think a lot of was unconscious to to maintain what someone described once as presumption of regularity with without which life can become a little bit threatening. If you I think for a minute that you can't trust the people who are responsible for your health and safety. Then things are scary if you think start thinking that they are mind into another corrupt. That's frightening stuff and it's not that Phil was championing gables. Innocence from the start but he did feel his guilt was certainly certainly in question and that it was the job of journalism to ask questions. Most people I think very good reasons don't want want to entertain those beliefs. Unfortunately people in the news business need to entertain those possibilities anyway. And that's where I think. The Oregonian specifically particularly went so far astray I was raising questions instance because I certainly didn't know the answers at the beginning. It was years before I knew enough about the case to be able to say definitively that this guy is not guilty of anything you made up the charges against so who's in for the College Football playoff as fourteen teams battling back to back semifinal games first jalen hurts looks to cap off his college career with another title as the sooners square off with coach. Joe Borough and the unbeaten SEC champion Tigers number four Oklahoma uh-huh persis- number one LSU outside the chick filet peach bowl at four eastern then Dabo Sweet Trevor Lawrence and the unbeaten ACC champion Tigers. Begin their quest to repeat against Justin feels chase young and the undefeated big ten champion. Being book is number three Clemson the reigning national chance again defects versus number two state Justin fields in this offense can attack multiple ways. The police station Fiesta Bowl. At Eight Eastern the College Football Playoff Semifinals December twenty eighth on ESPN and streaming live on the ESPN ESPN APP Phil found himself increasingly at odds with the Oregonian and his his coworkers. There to the point he eventually had no choice but to leave. I'm sure the Frankie case figured into everything that happened but basically it was just a new editor coming in who decided that I did not have the proper respect for power and prestige. And I'm I'm sure she's right so soon as she got there she started pushing me out and I finally had enough. I quit during his seven years at the Oregonian. In addition to many any successes like his series on the happy face killer Stanford devoted eighty four columns to Frankie's murder and mentioned it in seventeen others totaling nearly early seventy thousand words. He wrote his last column for the Oregonian on April first. Nineteen ninety. Four saying he'd brought out of things to say and he took one last parting shotted his editors by mentioning Frankie quote. A lot of people. Think I'm nuts on the subject I don't unquote he left. The paper. peoper demoralized and reflective on the path that brought him to this point. This wasn't the first time a you had walked away from a job or are found yourself without one. As a matter of fact I if I was there for seven years which I think you added up That's probably the longest held a job in my life. But Yeah I dropped out of school. You didn't just drop out of college. You dropped out of darkness. Yeah And I went surfing in Hawaii for a couple years. Tried school again. Didn't like it any better than the first time. And then they'll created his own unique the unique education one oddly well-suited to an eventual career exposing corruption joined the army. When I got out of the Army I started writing for magazines in Washington? DC Look for all the WASHINGTONIAN magazine Washington Post magazine Columbia Journalism Review. You couple of three pieces for the New York Times magazine. I worked as a an aid for a congressman on the Armed Services Committee. So I'd become sort of a half ass expert expert on military matters. I I wrote a couple pieces. On nuclear strategy and weapons technology worked as an editor for political magazine in San Francisco and then a columnist for them and then I dropped out. I don't know what exactly I was thinking of the time I was after upsetting divorce. That might have had something to do with it. I was looking for something else and I found it In Miami I ended up working as a private investigator Detective Agency called intercept which I soon discovered was among other things a front for. Ci Drug Ryan Hopkins. That's sort of where I got my education of. How would would really work before it was all over the guy working for got killed and I ended up back in Washington? DC looking for jobs that were no longer available. Because I'd really gotten off the ladder her and turns out the only place my my. My reputation hadn't caught up with me was Oregon. I guess so. I got a job with the Oregonian as as a reporter and after about six months they mccollum and now Phil was no longer one. Meanwhile Frank Gable was still sitting sitting in prison and he remained there even after his two thousand and one post conviction trial which raised questions regarding his defense attorney. Bob Able one of the big issues in the post conviction. Trial was further able had incapacitated himself by drinking too much at the time and the judge would simply not allow any evidence. Other at this point Phil was working again as a private detective and writing. Books works on the history of corruption in Oregon but he never stopped digging into the Frankie murder or gables trial after about ten years. I got eight complete collection of all the records on the case. Got Him from Tom. maccallum the chief investigator for the defense and he had all these boxes. He was lugging around around. Thirty banker's boxes and they're in a boat house out on the river someplace. He didn't want him anymore. He said you want them. Yeah so I took him and I read them. Read them twice and it. It was clear to me that they didn't have a case. They had nothing nothing Almeida. He also had proof now in the form of official documents. Kevin Frankie was telling the truth the entire time. He had voiced concerns about corruption and the records reveal the official denial of that was more than just an oversight. But I also got you know from reading. These documents was finally an understanding of how they had. No case against Gable. Nothing there wasn't something that we didn't understand. There wasn't something they were holding back. They didn't have a case. His Gable was innocent so it gave you renewed purpose. It got me going again. It had seemed so impossible before everything seemed to be the against me and Kevin and here was proof that they'd been lying about something that was central to their case. This whole case they revealed killed themselves time and time again by the lies that they've told now armed with evidence that confirmed into suspicions about the Frankie investigation. Bill was ready to tackle it again at the time I was working at the Tribune and started writing about the case again. I did a series series on the case we had more documents including of course the officer's notebook tobacco what we were saying. Then in the summer of two thousand and four Frank Gable made a remarkable request. He told his attorneys turnover all the evidence to the brother of the man. He was convicted of killing Kevin. Frankie received saved boxes of evidence. Police reports and defense investigator interviews young after Kevin got his boxes as we would find out there. Were some missing pieces. That didn't didn't find in mind by now. Fills articles in the tribune has sparked renewed interest into Michael Frankie's murder and the last week ran an article titled The Murder Murder. That would not die. The tagline columnist Bill Stanford is obsessed with a decade old conspiracy theory. What if he's right? The author Nick Budnick did a really pretty good story on the case and for the first time at least in in the Portland media gave a Some sort of voice to the same questions that I've been raising. And so he ended the column Sane according to be saying well if I were still at with your donation I knew I wouldn't be writing about this. And the Oregonian didn't take too kindly. They had obviously been drawn into a position where they were defending the official version of the case. And you were calling them on it you. I'm quite sure that's the way they saw. Yeah and then. Kevin unearthed the sworn statement by and Linda Parker. Now the press knew that her statement was secured five months before Frank Gables trial and was never investigated by the police or used enables gables. Defense it sparked another round of coverage. Here's television reporter Eric Mason. There was this feeling of Finnick. -Ation that all of our suspicions really was based in something. Linda had a piece of the puzzle which included overhearing That the hit on Michael. Frankie was supposed to look a certain way and a botched the job I remember her being frightened. I remember thinking this is the woman who really doesn't want to be interviewed and is reluctant giving away the details thinking to herself. Perhaps she's doing the right the thing but says she doesn't want to risk her safety to do it so she was afraid of house absolutely. Yeah mm-hmm the Frankie murder was making headlines again and placing scrutiny on a newspaper consistently on board with the State's version of Frankie scaling the Oregonian in the attack back and boy did they ever and I had an attack. Any of the writers personally never did never they came back and with a a billed as an exhaustive. Be All end all investigate reinvestigation of the case. We'll revisit that article later but much. Let's just say in light of what we now. Now it's been proven a pretty large misstep for the Oregonian. Jim Redden was working with Phil at the Tribune at the time. Jerry Oregonian Oregonian publish what they claim to be the most extensive investigation into the Michael Frankie murder and they come to the conclusion that there's one person responsible and he's in prison already. Frank Gable. No question then you respond to it right. Mutual together really. It wasn't just that they were saying he he did it. He's the only person that did it. They're also repeating again the Just wasn't the corruption to justify looking at other things and we just knew that that was that was wrong. But according to Fill Stanford that Oregonian article wasn't hard hitting journalism it was hitting below the belt it it was actually just a regurgitation of the the state's case but what what made it particularly odious at the time name and today you know Almost fifteen years later was that the attacked me and Kevin. Personally I'm in the business. I write a column. They can attack me but they made Kevin out as someone who is so damaged by grief that he was fantasizing. All these conspiracies and as I pointed out at the time in my column this is breaking new grounds in journalism attacking a family member of a murder victim for raising questions about his brother's was murder and it is still one of the most despicable bits of journalism I have ever seen and and someday they will. I'll have to answer for or there will be curse. They live with for the rest of their corporate existence uh on the next murder and Oregon a shocking scandal involving the former governor and how she said she was thirteen eighteen and she was very clear about and the troubling way it's handled by those former paper the Oregonian it had been depicted in the Oregonian as an affair. A Win it was rape of child has possible ties to Neil Goldschmidt dude towards Mike Frankie's murder investigation. They wanted to use him or put another way. Blackmail with this information the murdering Oregon's hosted by Lauren. Bright Pacheco and Phil Stanford executive producers are no Brown Lauren. Brad Pacheco and Phil Stanford supervising producer and lead Ed ed dealership sound design by tristen McNeil story editing. By now own written by Phil Stanford Matt Riddle and Lauren. Bright Pacheco music written and performed by the Diamond Street players and mixed by Taylor coin with music supervision by Nicole Brown additional music by tristen McNeil archival archival elements courtesy of GW in Portland Oregon. The station behind the PODCAST Burge to kill murdering Oregon is a production of iheartradio. Uh Uh uh Dr Q.. Here from the new bear and Banjo podcast available now on the iheartradio radio APP or wherever you get podcast. Here is a sneak peek on the road back to Angola prison the four travellers came upon a wagon pulled by two old were or courses with a large figure wrapped in a prison blanket holding the reins as they pulled closer. They saw it. Was the man called bear support for Baron. Banjo comes from one. Medical was same day appointments convenient locations and twenty four seven virtual care one medical makes it easy to talk to your provider about anything visit one medical dot com to learn more.
Ep 4 | Corruption
"So impeachment Polish. Right if you want to know W T.F is going on right now. I've got just the podcast for you. I'm haze Brown a reporter and editor at Buzzfeed News and the host of impeachment today a daily podcast produced in partnership with iheartradio radio in just ten to fifteen minutes every weekday morning. I'll catch you up on. What just happened with the help of other buzzfeed news reporters to figure out what it all means and give you the context they need understand? WTO is really going on right now. Listen and subscribe to impeachment today on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen previously on murder in Oregon six forty five pm on January Seventeenth Nineteen eighty-nine the night before he was to present the findings of his investigation. Michael Frankie walked out of the Dome Building Headquarters Quarters of the Oregon Department of Corrections. Forty minutes later. Elise clawson found his car with the driver's side door open. I went out the front step mm-hmm and his car was open an I heart adding because I couldn't see him and I had this really creepy Felim After a four hour search his body was found outside the office buildings north entrance. He had been stabbed in the heart and was lying in a pool with his own blood and the glass he shattered trying to get back inside. It was a public official who discovered corruption in his own department and night before where he was to address the Legislative Committee on this very subject. He was stabbed in the heart in front of the building where he worked corrections was made up of literally the family members and ex wife a wife a cousin an uncle a brother a sister and they basically interlocked and protected each there had been in issues in the prison system that he discovered and wanted to remedy I think he made a number of people in the department uncomfortable. Probably the head of pherson Scott mcallister. Who was the AG lawyer who had for the previous twelve or thirteen years in the signed corrections? Yeah and so. That's the third member of the collection of Department of Corrections officers on the outs with Frankie a week after the murder. The police held a press conference and announced. They were interested in talking with a man who had been seen in. The Dome building quickly became known as the man and the pinstripe suit pinstripe suit supposed to disarm them give them in his office and make it look like a suicide. I went to a psychic. And she said that he had somebody in custody right now named John K. It says it's krause. She said he'd probably didn't do it but he had some information about it. They didn't like the people his confession ultimately lead to. That's what it looks like for sure. Murder and Oregon the production of iheartradio outward appearances at the time of Michael Frankie's murder. Then governor. Neil Goldschmidt was Oregon's Oregon's golden boy. He inherited broken correction system but hired. Michael Frankie and made strides improving the department's reputation which was tarnished by the eighty-six investigation. He seemingly had nothing to lose by pursuing. Mike's Killer so why would he resist. Well that was the the big question I mean for all anyone knew he was completely clean he. He had been the golden boy of Oregon politics for years since he ran as a very young young handsome candidate for mayor and was even considered a likely candidate for president. People talked about him being the first Jewish President and here. He was governor resisting. My requests. Another requests in the media for more attention to the eighty-six Investigation Asian and the possibility that Michael Frankie was investigating corruption in his department. And I couldn't figure it out because he's a smart politician politician besides everything else and he hadn't come into office until after the eighty sixth investigation or eighty six cover up as I think of it now. It didn't make any sense. I couldn't figure out what was going on because he could have easily tacked it onto onto a mess. He already inherited. Oh absolutely he could have blamed it on his predecessor. The yeah it happened under the previous administration but there was no way anybody would have been prepared for the reason why no one thought there was a problem except me I guess and then there would be a huge huge problem. We would learn later that he had a great deal to cover. Uh Lauren Brad. Pacheco and this is murder and Oregon. Uh Uh so if gold Schmitz and action was a mystery. What's clear now is Salem? Oregon were heavily riddled with crime corruption. Chuck side served as a state representative and Oregon's legislature from one thousand nine hundred eighty four to eighty nine. He grew up and into power in in Salim's political system and according to him corruption has a long colorful history in the area. Payoffs you know. Basically the politicians knew who did get not to get those days and it wasn't literally the good old boy system that that worked for many many many many many years. Well what I came home from college seven people that ran the town and they came to me is my dad's friendships with them and said. Hey We want you on the school okay. Let me I was on the school board. Within two two weeks there was just an opportunity for Adler is everything's politic. Everything's so oh as chuck talked us through Oregon's checkered past. He gave us a tour of his beautifully restored. Historical office building. It's in downtown Salem. Not far from the Dome Building and has been utilized for many purposes over the years it was once a masonic lodge and even has a floor that it served as a booze friendly ballroom. During prohibition complete with an antique pump organ just like the one salems elite class would have danced to go back in the nineteen thirties so the bar was up here original bar still there. But this is where the organ was inside this little mezzanine and of course that's where the slot machines were and you had a little stair on the other side of this wall before it was remodeled with. That was where the guard was. So Oh yeah. Yeah and you didn't touch them. Because they were so powerful that everybody belong to a Masonic Lodge. They had a lot of weight when it came to getting getting people. Elected and chuck sides on political career. Path wasn't too far off from that sort of model according to Chuck Doc. He didn't choose politics as much as politics chose him after eight years on the school board. I was asked to run for the House of Representatives. Those oh same good old boys the ones who ran the town and so quickly installed chuck onto the school board. They also pushed for his election to the states. House of Representatives resentatives. That's where he really started to get a firsthand look into the structure of power in Oregon. We had a governor name. The Neil Goldschmidt Goldschmidt Neal was the type of person like bill. Clinton you go into a room and you just could follow him out and our first episode. We talked to bed about what Mike Frankie walked into on the heels of the nineteen eighty-six investigation into corruption with an Oregon's prisons Chuck exide's actually watched it unfold the hookers. Everybody were out on Portland. Road which is highway ninety nine and the truckers were funding the prostitutes and all that started that was normal but it was very low key and he did not until I started when I got elected I started riding around with the city police. I learned more about my city than I ever knew in terms of where things were done. No other stuff. It was also extremely segregated. Ed Salem did not allow minorities to live here. Even in the fifties they were told by no uncertain terms. You're got to get out of here by by sundown. Sundown so in a big school high school. There was two blacks and stuff like that. That was happening that I never saw. Aw but it was controlled by six or seven people and things were put up with but there were some situations nations that were beyond that systems power to contain. If Goldschmidt I thought at the time was clean then uh obvious even then that Marion County that state government county government was anything but I mean the two previous. Da's I had had been pushed out of office wanted to go to prison for dipping into public funds and giving out large amounts of confiscated weapons to his buddies and the second one was pushed out of office in mid term over a domestic assault report. Here's chuck sides take to get into the Dick van. Dyke dykes on Chris. was the DA in town and he was an up and comer and basically was going to be the next governor. Has he had that Christmas. A Lot. Like Goldsmith all that stuff. Chris beat up his girlfriend and she filed police charges and instantly Salihi copies of that. Got Out because the Republicans didn't want him running for governor. He was candidate but it knocked him out. Because because of that whole scandal we have a copy of that police report and while the charges against Van Dyke were later dropped the political damage which was down. Here's bill and so. He left an eighty-three and each of these changes in the DA's Office for sort of Palace coups away and they'll pan ended up there's a DA in about eighty five. Remember Dale Penn.. He was the district attorney who oversaw that Nineteen eighty-six LBJ investigation into corruption within corrections. As well as the investigation into Michael Frankie's murder both during a time when the social atmosphere in Salem could be characterized characterized as rather steamy and CD the entire scene. Down there was overheated it was the eighties. It was coke. The Professional Class Meth for the rest of the population and the rest of the population included. Lots and lots of ex-cons unconscious on parole Salem by law at that time had all the prisons and so that naturally drew all the families families there When when he got out on parole they would often stay in that area so it was a strange culture that included all the public officials and bureaucrats on one hand and a large criminal population on the other? So that kind of culture that kind of environment where you had ex-cons mingling side by side with the people who are supposed to be policing them that sounds like like the perfect recipe for corruption. Well it it certainly made it much easier especially if you if you understand crop shen as a part of the system system so when it comes to meet quality makes a huge difference in texture and taste and even though it might be better for you and the environment a lot of the higher air-quality meet you find at. The grocery store is just too expensive for most people's budget thankfully there's butcher box which your box believes. Everyone deserves. Access to high-quality equality humanely sourced meet at an affordable price. That's why each month which are box ships. A curated selection of the finest cuts right to your home. Choose from one hundred. Two percent grass-fed and finished beef. Free range organic chicken heritage pork wild caught Alaskan salmon and sugar and Nitrate Free Bacon. No antibiotics no. Oh no added hormones. Just meet the way meet should be and right now you can get two pounds of ground beef and to Pack Bacon absolutely free plus twenty dollars colors off your first box when you visit which are box dot com slash iheart or use the Promo Code Iheart at checkout. That's butcher box dot com slash slash iheart or use the Promo Code Iheart at checkout Salem in the nineteen eighties Didn't exactly sound like mayberry multiple people. We interviewed referenced variations of Sex Drug and hot TUB fueled atmosphere here. Here's chuck sides again down. The block was a company called key title longer exists but key titled added a Beautiful Women Working for them and they got into a partnership for fun parties. And that type thing. This guy named Scott mcallister who you've heard it worked for the Attorney General's office Had photos of those. It was the the naked hot tub stuff but it was really relieving tensions after work and obviously honestly there is the relationships and everything but I was totally naive until Michael and then all of a sudden this stuff came out and The cons the new it and these subcultures and communities even formed inside the prisons where corruption like water also found its way and likely with even less resistance. There's a culture immediately inside the prisons both all sides staff and the cons and that type of I used to find it fascinating as you met everybody. This serial killer called the I five bandit humid dia downs. Diane downs is notorious Oregon postal worker. Who murdered her young daughter and attempted to kill her two other children in the nineteen nineties at first sure she claimed the kids were shot during an attempted carjacking then she showed up to trial shockingly and noticeably pregnant met these people live sitting this close? But it's just characters like that you find the prison and Chuck says prisons at the time. Didn't exactly put the cell in celebrate There was a lot of sex going on. And you would take your walkie talkies in those days or whatever you WanNa call him and there was a a couple beeps sounds. It went out net. It was a supervisor in the area. Common Straight now. Let's let's get back to someone. Chuck sides mentioned Scott mcallister. That's the assistant. Ag Michael was having trouble removing and his name will keep coming up. And these girls and hot tubs. mcallister apparently had photocells is by. Guess there is a number knbr people there I mean but he was part of the attorney. General's office that weighs what they were doing. So there was that little cold out there that Every large community both private and public. You'll find side there's said because we're all centers But he'll find fighting and you'll find sex After moving to sail in the nineteen seventy four and Jim Hill built an impressive career in law and politics before serving two terms as the state's treasurer. Her he was an assistant attorney. General a state representative and state senator. He also filled. LBJ's vacant seat. Who passed after the eighty-sixth investigation and hell would have heard from the same prison guards? The same inmates and the same officials who reported corruption the first time time and I remember when one of the conclusions out of the investigation. was that the corrections institutions. Each each one of them was run like a fiefdom and and so that was always something That that was out there. I again you. Can you talk about corrections whenever you're in close proximity to unlawful people. You're always concerned about in. Hell says a stubborn naievety was firmly ingrained in the state can't see this was a time and when people felt that all the bad things that happen everywhere else in the country. That can't happen in Oregon. You know we're above and we're you're better than that but once Michael was was murdered. Obviously that changed. Everything but hill was well aware aware of an ongoing pattern of corruption particularly in corrections including the fire which was arson for insurance purposes. Well we knew about the fire and I'm going far back in my memory banks now but I remember there was discussion that some people had now for example donated things to corrections for the inmates and that the inmates work mark getting them and that correction personnels taking them those things for themselves or selling or whatever time went on us I started the put things together and this is just my impression. This is my opinion that there were prominent people in the community that were involved in illegal activity and that that had had to go into the presence. That's what makes sense. I mean can't be so naive as to think that drugs don't get it in the prison and Dan. I just started to get the impression for people to want to take the risk of killing the head of corrections. There was something very big that was being hidden and it could have included a variety of people from a a variety of social classes. Who'd long profited from illegal activities you know in a lot of communities you find that when you have the usual thing serve prostitution gambling those kinds of things? Sometimes there are prominent people in the community. Who have a connection to that? However when you start talking about drugs the anti goes up tremendously because number one? You're talking about a lot out of money and you are also starting to get connected with some very dangerous people who and will do what's necessary to protect and then there were the law officers themselves. The people on the ground Jay Boutwell was a detective in the Marion County Sheriff's department more than two decades of experience and firsthand knowledge of rampant corruption. Well I know after I got into investigation I determined terminent found out that it was more corruption in this town. People knew we're understaffed. Some people are not qualified and we got dirty car show. I wouldn't Harvard Damn. Don't get dirty cops dirty town. Boutwell says many of his fellow fellow police officers were more interested in women than in doing police work with girls in the office other clerks in the all. It didn't matter if they were to marry. Damn yeah they do it anyway. I don't think there is one dam on. That would allow my wife to ever ride to you. Know what the talk. I know what they do but there was that kind of stuck on prostitution going just reading. Your nose didn't want to do anything with the gambling. Same thing one of the guys. Who are there was a former Oregon state place affected? You argue state look. It must've been curated yet because like I told people you know I didn't come here for money. I came here because I hate crowds. I just got better in person. Boutwell has a wiry restrained energy at crackles with intensity. Even now he's the SORTA guy you don't WanNa Cross and the type of guy you want on your side. That's why was known as don't screw with him because above your head. It's easy to understand how he got his nickname last. Nice when I got the name mad dog and nothing better than corruption we took on the game and then we took on the pasta too and that prostitution was something else for years. There was a network of Prostitute House and you are known as a rub massage parlors and Word was he had worked at for many years. Trying to make a prostitution case but for some reason couldn't undo it well in about six weeks between the whole county out nick rush in twelve maybe fourteen besides bars we got and the man I was after after the king many more support corners and lizzy inside actual owner insulate himself by her and all these other people so the first one we took down was French quarter and in there. We arrested members Salems Ethics Committee. So that's kind of how that went down and it went down with meticulous surveillance. They put a guard inside which was for US undercover and he was a former army the intelligence officer so he was taking notes so we got politicians. We've got two attorneys. We got doctors lawyers. bigshots people awesome Oregon State. Or even here you got police officers. That were transported offers from other cities here. Doing things of this nature was out and out prostitution. The bad thing was because of who we had in there is it goes to day open for prosecution. He was the district attorney. And because who it was in there he didn't take it so he's over to Jesus Mrs where it gets really interesting because The case was never prosecuted. Dude was we say it was on the carpet. And that's what they basically did but we had judge in there you know namely got with Slower Balance Lauper said Surkhet the era we got a nervous not believe Boutwell says in addition to the high level bolt face names they ensnared it was also so an airtight slam dunk case. We had out out the Rico in Cook Dinner Ako on it because of what was going on with these big people were Rico. Stands stands for racketeer influenced and corrupt organizations a federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties for acts performed as part of an ongoing doing criminal organization. All kinds of criminal activity is going on drugs. You name it was there. We had paper trails. I witnessed confessions by the Johns. I the prostitutes positive I need. There's no way in heck. He lost that case they gave an over the visa. Lee's office Bam's this under the dirt. Nobody wants to talk about. Did you ever question that yet. It while we were told that they were gonNA take take because we're going to work pan. He was kind of closed mouth. Everybody was closed mouth about it. You know doing well. It was something that they didn't want in the news and the more stories about well shared the more. I was reminded of something Phil once told me. Salem was right. A big sweater and thread of yarn had pop loose and they couldn't afford to pull on it because the whole thing might come apart back about well. Well there's a string artists and said I work that I know has the same people in it and they were one of those things where the same thing that was at the time that Kris Kris Van Dyke left and left Michael Brown as the district attorney acting totally election. I dress guy the former tale supreme court and I took him her several counts of a juvenile rape rape and sex crime. Eleven year old girl. All over series of these people all got the same same thing all tied to get it just like a sweater and apparently doing drugs also bonded did the social levels of Salem at the time everyone was doing drugs bars. In the city the coke bars where Jonathan's in the black angus us. The gender stare would have talked to me about how they they preferred to be tipped little bundles of cocaine and with the lobbyists the politicians politicians all the lawyers hanging out at these places. Everyone was into it. Kevin even told me that in the bathroom there was a special area sat. Sat up just to do coke in Jonathan's yeah there was a mirror and everyone knew it was an open secret and I've I talked to people who did coke with judges with politicians of course it was accepted and and it was immediately compromising. That's the problem. That's that's the problem. 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DOT COM Promo Code. IHEART tonal be your strongest a man we will only refer to you by his first name. Robert had a front row seat to those compromised. He was eighteen when he was hired to basically show for a guy named Ron Spears who who managed an auto repair shop in Salem that provided more than just auto service start off driving him to work sometimes. Sometimes it's a comeback about noon. Sometimes they'd show up pick them up and I'd have to wait an hour hour and a half I stand around. Let's see what was going on and I didn't really say much. They're working on a lot of State and county vehicles had parking on the roof so it started started off a couple of weeks of that and then the evening we'd drive around in pickups as he put it he'd be picking up cash wrong was very proud of his welding skills and he'd had me look at a car some of the old county and state cars. They eh back then see if you can find the compartment where he goes. Okay look the back so I look in the back. I tried carpet doc. And everything. Then he'd showed me in thirty seconds he'd have a department open so he custom fit these cars with hidden compartments. Yeah and a lot of the cars have the a little cage in the back so these were corrections vehicles that were used to transport inmates. I assume warm on the times when he's mixing in his beer with his foods and he'd he'd talk a lot Taking him in the prison they have their own auto shop in there. They know when it's coming the guards. No one it's coming. said they were transporting drugs into the prison official vehicles including the District Attorney's Attorney's office One lady that he was having a thing with she always hover car down there and he would place Round cylinder thing head because she was down there a lot especially if they're after hours You know they'd kiss and all that and she was put. I think she was doing the same thing. He was speed in the morning at night. And she worked at the District Attorney's grass uh-huh uh-huh sure all these CD stories sound salacious. But but Phil Who's written four books on corruption says. These sort of situations are as American as Apple Pie. Well I think it's probably a fairly typical of a lot of cities at the time. My First Book Portland confidential was about Portland back in the fifties when the old style payoff system was enforce. It was actually part of city government in Portland in most major cities across the country. At the end of the month the police captains sends and head of the vice squad would go out to the major vice operators and collect what was due Based on the number of car tables number prostitutes and and so forth and then divvied it up to the city council. The mayor and other certain high-ranking police officials my last book was about a suppressed vice scandal in Portland Linden the seventies which is more like what was going on insane on at the time at that time in Portland. The Narcotics Squad was actually putting drug dealers to work for them. They bust them but they wouldn't take them in rest them. They just put them to work. Time and time again and They would take large percentage of the deal that they would take drugs off the street from other drug dealers and I give them to their favorite drug dealers. They put them back on the street. So that's the sort of thing that was going on in Salem. It wasn't that unusual. The drug money is so big it is hard to resist and inevitably. You're going to have narcotics cops who would fall into it. And there are a number of dirty narcotics cops and Salem there but beyond that even those who don't become corrupt are compromised just because because of the very nature of drug enforcement the only way they can do it since it's basically a crime that neither side is going to report art. The other four is to team up with half the drug dealers usually after they busted them and get them to turn in their competition. It's instantly compromising. Housing is very often leads to corruption. was there an organized drug dealing group or gang in Salem. Several it's big business. Major part did the economy in Salem anyplace else and so you had a number of people cooking math. They had to have their distribution systems. People bringing in cocaine heroin one and of course then marijuana was illegal that was a big part of it too and one of them of course was what we call the Kaiser. Mafia bunch of guys who'd grown up together other in the attached suburb of Kaiser started in high school dealing drugs breaking into places getting all sorts of trouble but then figuring out how to stay out of it that strategy apparently included paying off the local cops some of whom they'd grown up and gone to school with and cultivating cultivating business connections. That reached behind bars. Vince Taylor ran with the Kaiser Mafia just a group of guys that consider themselves untouchable. You know with a lot of money. A lot of stuff and they were running Kaiser Innocence. Where you know if you didn't buy from them then you better have an excuse? Why you don't buy from the mayor asks them if it's okay to get it somewhere else? You know stuff like that and their drug dealing territory also included the prisons. Yes Oh oh definitely. One of the members of the Kaiser Mafia was Taylor's childhood friend. A guy named Tim Natividad who was also known own as rooster he someone whole heavily figure into multiple facets theories about Mike Frankie's murder a good looking guy with dark hair dark eyes and symmetrical features but even as a kid natividad came with a past Met Him two days after he he got here. I think he came here on. What witness protection program pay thing? His mom became instantly friends with them. I mean I don't know when they act was but I mean like in in the eighties and then ten started using trucks major personnel change. He was one person is that I can think give. This should have never ever got involved in that kind of thing because he was a totally different person. Go into people's House and you know they money and he would get crazy you you know I mean God for Twenty Dollars Owes you twenty dollars unit. beat him to death. You know I mean it's kind of ridiculous. He was very violent. I mean he probably has gone on me at least in my lifetime. Ten Times and two of the Times pulled the trigger but it misfired. You know didn't shoot so and Tim got a reputation and many including officials and corrections knew he was violent. And do you think that it's possible. That Cam Killed Michael Frankie I do I do if an almost guaranteed that why I just believe he did because he did a lot of crazy stuff that no one knew about and then have a huge amount of money you know and and what I heard but you know. I can't tell you this preserved but that he was paid to do you know by prison. People were involved and were were stressing frankie coming out with some crazy stuff you know it would ended their job career and everything. You know Tim he was capable of doing that. And Funny how he got killed with the knife. And that was tim's main thing he always had multiple knives on him always had one in his hand with the blade out always always always I can't ever say for for sure but I would say he If anybody in this whole world would be the one responsible for that now uh on the next episode of murder and Oregon Corruption Russian and drug shatter families. That was at home taking care of the baby girl while he was out selling drugs. Instigating violence WHO's terrified Knew he was gonNA kill me and grabbed him done and evil. He had shot and killed him her boyfriend or husband. She just started screaming all tied the same man and possibly to the murder of Michael Murder Organs hosted by Lauren Bright Pacheco Phil Stanford executive producers are no Brown Lauren. Bright Pacheco and Phil Stanford supervising supervising producer and lead editor. Is Taylor coin. Sound design by Tristen McNeil Story Editing by Matt Riddle written by Phil Stanford Matt Riddle and warned Warren Bright Pachuca music written and performed by the Diamond Street players and mixed by Taylor's Aucoin with music supervision by Noah Brown additional music by Tristen macneil murdering organism production of Iheartradio only getting pulled over for buzzed. Driving could cost you around ten thousand dollars in fines. Legal fees and increased insurance rates. Nothing kills a buzz like getting pulled over for buzzed driving because buzzed driving is drunk. Driving brought to you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Ad Council.
Ep 11 | Habeas Corpus
"Available now from Iheart a new series presented by t mobile for business. The restless ones join me. Jonathan Strickland as I explore the coming technological revolution evolution with the restless leaders who stand right on the cutting edge. They know there is a better way to get things done and they are ready. Curious excited cited for the next technological innovation to unlock their vision of the future in each episode. We'll learn more from the restless ones themselves and dive deep into how the Five G. Gee Revolution could enable their teams to thrive. The restless ones is now available on the iheartradio APP. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. Murdering Oregon Oregon is production of iheartradio for thirty years. Now the murder of Michael Frankie has cast a dark shadow over the state of Oregon and it's institutions. He was a good and decent man. A former prosecutor and judge hired just the year before or to serve as director of the state's Corrections Department and he was stabbed to death on the night of January Seventeenth Nineteen eighty-nine outside the office building where he worked in Salem known as the Dome building much of what happened. That night remains a mystery. Frank Gable a twenty nine year. Old petty thief in small-time drug dealer was arrested for the murder about a year later journalist and author Phil Stanford has been investigating the Frankie murder for three decades. It was not an accident it was not a car burglary gone. Dad is a public official who discovered corruption in his own and department. Heads are GONNA roll. He was about ready to demote or fire some of his his top aides. He'd already gotten rid of one. A lawyer who'd I've been working there for over a decade the night before he was to address the Legislative Committee on this very subject. He was stabbed in the heart in front of the building. In pro he worked. It was a cover up from the beginning. They couldn't afford to even look at the people who might have done it so they selected a patsy and they made up the evidence against him put him on trial and got a conviction. Sounds a bit for more than thirty years. Gable has adamantly maintained his innocence and to this day much about the Frankie murder investigation and gables subsequent arrest still remained shrouded in secrecy but a few things do seem clear. The investigation into Michael Staff was little more than a cover for up the corruption. Michael Frankie uncovered and the individuals tied to that corruption. And possibly Mike's murder has not been properly. They pursued which is why for the past ten episodes of murder and Oregon. We've been asking the question who killed Michael Frankie I'm Lauren Brad. Pacheco and this is murdering Oregon. Uh Uh in the morning of January eighteenth nineteen eighty nine. Kevin was working at his construction company in Florida when he got the call and he was already suspicious before that. Oh yeah a couple of weeks before. He's had a phone conversation in with. Mike and Mike told him that he discovered an organized criminal element in his department and he was going to be cleaning house and initially told by. Dick Peterson send. Mike was shot when in fact he was stabbed. Yeah the Peterson. Deputy Director of Oregon Corrections tells Kevin that is better. Mike has been shot shot. Here's Michael Frankie's younger brother. Kevin was going through my mind. I think is probably what goes through. Everybody's mind when you get Tragic event is that I knew in my heart that I would get out here and somebody would tell me. It's a big mistake mistake. It was somebody else makes okay. He's over here. The person on the patio with somebody else. Just of my thinking and feeling Mussa's overwhelming grief and sadness. Kevin immediately flew to Oregon. As did his older brother Pat remember seeing pep looked like he just said the way to the world. Oh you could lose this hug. Each other to all I said was true. And then when Dan Kevin gets out to Oregon he is interviewed initially by detective. Lauren Glover right yeah. I think it's that morning at the John. Golden MM long glover was a state police officer. Who was one of the principal investigators in Frankie murder? I assume that glover asked the expected acted questions that you would ask in a murder situation right to Mike. Have any drug habits drinking habits Avenue Gambling Habits Do you know if he was having affairs with anybody. They tell you this. Tell you that and I said no what he told me was that he had uncovered an organized the criminal element and it kind of went over his head and we know this because years later we got. The officers notes is that his brother was running into problems with his top staff. And then the frankie brothers went with the police to Mike's House to get clothing for the funeral for my body audie and what they saw there was pretty amazing. Here's pat the oldest frankie brother. We went up to his house his wife and I are her dead Dad. More Butter Kevin Police to pick up closing for the funeral people. There was a forty five caliber Albert pistol than the beds that had been under his pillow and twelve gauge state. Ride gun leaning against the sliding glass door that opened out onto the deck and The deck sidewalk down below were littered with hundreds and hundreds of spent twelve gauge shotgun shells. You've been out there doing the walk practicing with twelve gauge. It isn't a normal activity. I don't think I don't think that's it would piss owner my pillow not only would. It seem that Mike was concerned for his safety. But the state's official narrative of the murder as a corroborate on bad just didn't make sense well one much of a robbery because he still had his wallet he's still has has watch what was missing his briefcase and in that briefcase would have been floppy disks. That's what we have to assume. Yes there was also unusual activity at the Dome building the day after his body was found. and which would have been a Saturday reported seeing a number I. I think it's twenty three or something like that. Burn bags of the print outs. That had been gathered up over the weekend. There were twenty three trash bags full of papers that were carried out of somewhere our suspect some of it came out of his office and they were all shredded. The Frankie family was assured the investigation was a top priority and mm cautioned not to talk to the press but Kevin in particular remained skeptic. Call from day one. I didn't believe that somebody of course they're stealing something at Mike's Glove compartment and killed the whole scenario. Everything just seemed seemed absolutely wrong because of what I knew about my brother the fact that he would grab somebody who does who in their right mind thinks that might gives a shit about anything. They're gonNA steal out of his car seriously. After the funeral Kevin went back to Florida and back to his business business spending most of his time trying to conduct a long distance investigation which was very difficult because he really didn't have any contacts back in Salem. He was just calling blind in the corrections department. A phone book and then a witness came forward. Shortly after Kevin got back to Florida state. Eight police held a press conference and said they had witnessed. It was maintenance person who turned out was a janitor named wing hunts acre. You said he saw two the people he turned because he heard something like a grunt sound or hurt sound like somebody getting punched in the gut and he turned around. He saw Guys facing each other at that instant one turned and ran this way and the other one went back into the Dome Building. The two men he described was taller than the other then. One turned around and ran from the Dome building across the big green field field there towards the state hospital the other one turned around and walked back to the don't build any sudden leisurely at the time but what strikes me here is. It's very odd. Is that the one who turned and ran was noticeably taller than the one who turned and walked back to the Dome Building. Michael Frankie was about six three or six four which means that the guy who turned and ran he was as tall as an NBA basketball player. It doesn't make any sense it doesn't fit. Let's about a week. After the murder. The police held a press conference and announced. They were interested in talking with a man who had been seen in. Don't building the night of the murder key was seen in the Dome Building. It's six thirty which was about an hour. After the building had been locked to the a public he was wearing a dark suit and and women thought it was a pinstripe suit. He's quickly became known as the man and the pinstripe suit the now the thought that there was a guy inside the building and a guy outside. The building is also interesting in light of the fact that we know that. The the number three in command under Mike's Department. Dave Cawley said that he was afraid to go. Check Mike's Office us. Because he was afraid he'd find him dead from a suicide correct I would call his WHO's the guy in the pinstripe suit and is stabbing him the best thing? I think it was planned that he was supposed to be suicide. Pinstripe suit as opposed to disarm him get him in his office and either take him somewhere and kill them at home or having to do with the suicide hair and make it look like a suicide. I don't know if they knew that he always used the north portico door instead of the main entry door because pinstripe suit we've seen at the main entry door going back and forth and not here came out here and the objective was to kill him and and now he's getting loose and you have to stop him than the shit. Hits the fan after months with no information Kevin's back and Florida and feeling in desperate when he gets an unusual tip. Yeah a friend. Hanjin the newspaper article about a psychic. Who'd help the local police and said might as well try so Kevin gave her recall and they got together? She said that they've got somebody in custody right now. They think that he might have done it but he. It didn't do it but he knows more than he should now. His name's John McKay. Something called Glover and I asked him. I said you have somebody in custody right now. You said Yeah Oud who snitched. We got a leak in this. Who told you about that? And I said I went to a psychic. And she said that he had somebody in custody right now. John K says its seat France. One of the most obvious things that Jonny Krause knew that he couldn't have known unless he'd been there was the nature of Frankie's he's wounds one established to the left arm probably defensive wounded and the fatal wound to the heart. Johnny Cross knew that it it hadn't been released to the public but in addition to that he described the scene. They said frankly had come up on him when he was breaking into the car. He tried to get away. He couldn't Frankie was too strong. They struggled he had a knife still trying to get away he started slashing at him and then he stabbed him Out of him and he turned and ran towards the old hospital across the huge green lawn there and around around the green generator which is exactly what Hunziker the janitor. The state cops I witness said he saw that Kevin. Mike's brother Pat Frankie would visit Jonny Krause imprison looking for answers and I went to the penitentiary was krause's lawyer sure and I had a series of questions written out on the three five cars that I showed Krause Uzi glass. I didn't WanNA talk. I did want record it when I was asking. What David responding to and about eight or ten questions and indicated that he didn't do it but he knew did and if he'd be willing to along those lines? Pat called fill with a bombshell crowd shared. These said pad this goes to corrections. You're onto something. Pat told me I put that mccollum everybody. Everybody Noah Brown hair executive producer of murdering Oregon and true crime is absolutely a passion of mine but occasionally you can get a little dark exploring all of these cases so an. I need a break. Something of a mental pallet cleanser. I liked to play a game called best means. It is a challenging puzzle problem solving solving game. That also has a story. It engages your brain in a fun approachable way. It's fantastic for casual players of all ages. You can spend as much sure as little time on the game is you'd like lately. I've been finding myself with a tiny bit of downtime or do you need to unwind and I'll play it maybe a couple times a day. I'm I think I'm at level twenty three three but that's the thing it keeps updating adding new levels every single month so there's always new worlds to explore engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons ends of cute characters. Download this five star rated mobile puzzle game on the apple APP store and Google play for free. That's friends without the our best fiends. After Johnny Krause's confession he even took cops on a ride to show them where they could find the bloody clothes. He ditched after for the murder during that ride. Krause also suggested a bit of a detour. The police took him in the police car to show them. Where are he had buried some clothes that he'd worn that night and as they were driving down Park Avenue two blocks from the Dome Building which is where Michael Frank? Thank you worked. Krause said if you WANNA go see where the knife was that killed back. Frankie go over to nine forty two park avenue. And that's what Dale Pen in the car and to state cops and crosses attorney and they couldn't take two minutes out of their drive to the penitentiary to stop by nine forty two park avenue. Just check it around and that afternoon the record shows he came back and headed meeting with breath they open and Serra more who has done the lead prosecutor on the case and said that he'd been approached by two officials in corrections since offer. Ten Thousand Dollars Killed Frankie but had backed out of it and that someone else had done it so all this is going on behind the scenes and we don't know it until the wreckage cajole release sometime later but what we do know. Is that shortly after that. Jonny Krause was dropped as a suspect and in fact eventually given community by the DA's office on condition that he not recant his recantation. So it's that they didn't like his confession. They didn't like the people his confession would ultimately lead to. That's what it looks like for sure. By now. Kevin was done taking orders from the folks behind the official investigation and gifts fill the green light to report on the corruption. He knew his brother was investigating Phil. L. Does and includes a copy of police sketch he's tracked down. It's of the man and the pinstripe suit and then Governor Neil Goldschmidt retaliates against both Phil Kevin. That's what set off Goldschmidt. Next thing I knew he was holding a press conference. He's saying issue after the issue is in the paper and nobody has ever stopped to say. Where does this garbage? Come from your impugning. The character of the Oregon State police which is an independent investigation held another press conference called. Vs After that Goldsmiths Office and the prosecutor deal pen start attacking. Kevin saying there is no evidence at all that members of the Frankie family said anything about this organized criminal element in their initial interviews with the State Koch which of course was not true. Even as the official investigation pushed the narrative of a car burglary gone bad there was another development that pointed a very different direction. An inmate named Conrad Garcia came forward with shocking the allegations about six months after Michael Frankie's murder. He goes to his counselor in prison and tells the counselor He knows something about the murder. He says he was approached by Tim Natividad to do the murder and he knows that Scott mcallister. The prison lawyer arranged is their record of that. I pulled up the report by Lawrence Conrad's counselor and it says this is what the Task Force wrote from his report. Laurent's was interviewing inmate Garcia concerning institutional matter during the conversation Asian Garcia told. Iran's Mr Frankie was killed by Timothy David Natividad. This was arranged by Scott mcallister. So that's the information they had. Conrad stated that Tim Natividad killed. Mike Frankie and that Scott mcallister had put him up to it and he told that to his counselor John Lawrence gave that information into the state police via the tip lines tip sheets to the state police. Investigators regarding Mike's murder and we spoke to two women extremely involved and familiar with Timothy Natividad also known as rooster and both believed he was violent volatile and and very capable of murder. Here's Carrie Rothschild. who was barely eighteen? When she was trafficked by her mother to Natividad a drug dealer Carey was even with Natividad when another murder was committed or some gunshots and the door opened and somebody in the other room had shot one of the people that is with and killed him and he he had them over his shoulder? And I've I've had nightmares about this day forever but He's carrying hiring them. You know. And then he takes them out side and puts them in a trunk of a car and I won't with him in the ban and I helped him unfortunately clean up the block because it was on him and he looked at me and said we'll never ever speak of this again and are so scared carries mother malady. Holiday was large amounts of drugs into the prison with the obvious protection and knowledge of people in power. She's moving being a Lotta drugs into the joint. She's going into visit three times a day seven days a week which is unheard of. You've got to have some sort love connection there to get in that many visits. You're not allowed that many that often unless your name doesn't go into visitation records so you must have known somebody that could get you in with that documenting your visit carry recalls corrections guards and officials officials coming to her house to visit her mother melody who was desperate to get her fourth husband Conrad Garcia out of prison when not to come to our house. Usually he would come alone and he came to our house on a couple of different occasions with different people one one time he came with who I believe Scott mcallister and then the other time he came with someone who I believe is the guard from from the prison. They pulled up in government vehicles and I only know that now from working in the field the federal law lives this God love was Natividad. Living girlfriend gave birth to his son and was often on the receiving end his violent mood swings. I'm got extremely dangerous holding knives to my throat to choke in meow and like the police were really. There's there's nothing they could do. I filed restraining orders. Tim would get locked up for the day out. It'd be worse. And she says Natividad. Dad became increasingly unhinged. After Michael Frankie's murder was really super paranoid. Angry sad mad and all the emotions were like a lot of crying and shaking and not letting me out of sight not letting me go to the store out leading letting me have family over keeping the blinds shut and saying. Don't let anybody do not answer the door. If I'm here I'm not here. You don't don't ever let anybody know him here. He wanted to move to bend by house in those two weeks. He's telling me all this he wanted to go to Hawaii. So you get all these big plans right away. Two weeks after Mike's Murder Liz would shoot tim to death in self defense dance. Then months later she would see the police. Drying of the man in the pinstripe suit the composite during that came out in the newspaper and on the news looked to me in my my sister carrying. It looked like Tim Jerry. You so really. We were shocked and said Oh my God so she went to in a place as I said you guys think Tim Kill Michael Franken need you to look into it. Tim always carried a knife. Tim The huge knife collection. Tim was violent. Tim told me he killed somebody. And I think it's Michael Look at this composite drying and I laughed and said do can't convicted man. There's nothing we can do here And tem Natividad is never pursued as a suspect no despite what Conrad Garcia told his counselor that he'd been approached by Actividad to do the murderer and and that he thought that Scott mcallister was behind it. They never really pursued that. No they never did. Why do you think one obvious possibility? They couldn't have investigated him without investigating mcallister and they obviously did not want to investigate journalist and so is about this time. The investigation started zeroing lenient on small time. Drug dealer named Frank Gable just completely out of the blue. They had no physical evidence connecting him with the crowd. Try and how did they build their case around him. So what they did was to talk to motley collection of ex cons jail birds who had serious sentences in some cases hanging over their heads and get them to make up stories about gable. They used lie detector tests polygraphs to shape the testimony. And just about every case. I got the phone call at home on April ninth the morning of April night and it was kept didn't Dennis Donald on the line. He stated his purpose for the call was student for me that they had indicted trank gable for the Burger order. My and I said you gotta be Shit and they said well. Why are you calling me? 'cause I was expected that if there was a cold that it be calling from the DA's office and he said we flipped a coin. And I lost convinced. There was more to his brother's murder. Kevin picked up and moved to Oregon. He wasn't exactly welcomed the very first night that I was is an wargin. I got my tire slashed. Then I got a note saying Welcome to Oregon or go home placed on the windshield. The Salem Elem and state police would try to make his life. A living hell and they'd go beyond verbal harassment. Snap verbal when there's a gun pointing in your Temple mm-hmm and that happened on several occasions one in particular that nearly turned deadly sat there wondering if I was gonNA. NFC The windshield blow out before my brain said All kinds of weird things are coming into my head and kept watching the cats in my rear view mirror and that they had the shining in the mirror here and I could see about five cops back there. In the meantime meantime Gables. Trials said. Yeah the lawyer assigned to Gables case Bob able was hardly capable of handling such a big important complex complex case. He was on the skids himself as a lawyer and he was a heavy drinker. Besides in fact his own defense team was so concerned that he wasn't prepared for Gables trial that they approached the judge at the time with a former ladder asking to postpone the trial judge West a letter saying just add and nothing came up at trial went forward. Here's local television reporter. Eric Mason. I I think all of us realize there was nothing really connected. Frank Gable to this crime and that the people who had told the story that and had become informants and stitches against Frank Gable. They were all professional liars. They they were all people who'd made serious big deals before their lives with prosecutors and understood the system the way it worked jody and and shorty harden were supposedly the state's star witnesses only eye-witnesses after they got their stories straight they claim to have. I've been in a car at the Dome Building on the night of the murder and to have seen the murder but their testimony contradicted the only reliable witness the state had on. The stand aren't on soccer right on Saker. Who saw the two men in front of the Dome Building would have also seen the car that Jodi and shorty were in in but there was no car there and in the trial this this is a pretty good example of how incompetent able was? He didn't even try to point this contradiction contradiction out and the jury was never told about. Johnny Krause's confession and Tim nativities name was never even mentioned. You know the drill had no idea that someone else had confessed to the crime Tom. McCallum was the lead investigator for Frank Gables. Defense when I came back Frank Denmark come up. He didn't WANNA come. You scared and didn't WANNA come up in here. The verdicts six nine down for about half an hour. I said there's no with Hick inside your guilty. And that's the way I felt and so with absolutely no physical evidence connecting him to the scene of the crime and only the perjured testimony of several so-called material witnesses witnesses. Frank Gable was convicted of the murder of Michael Franken sentenced to life without parole. They even asked for the death penalty. Which is today the final evil here is that they knowing that they had made up the case against this man within after he was convicted? Try to kill him and so begins Frank Gables long legal battle to prove his innocence. This case has been controversial from the start. When Gable was arrested for the murder he claimed he was set up? I believe that I walked into a complicated drug ring and really don't know how complicated it was until so now you think maybe that had something to do with Frankie's murder. I believe so yes. He has filed multiple appeals. Today the judge ruled the trial coordinator. Frankie filed a handwritten Habeas Corpus petition in two thousand seven that Latin term literally translates to produce the body it's a legal recourse where person can report supposed- unlawful imprisonment and ask for the chance to judge determine whether or not the detention and was legal it was truly frank's last chance and would prove the beginning to an uphill battle for his freedom after reading fell L. Stanford's columns gable Kanta correspond with fell. The letters were heart Felton personnel in them gables mood wavered at times between hope hope and despair September seventh. Two thousand eleven fell. Glad to hear from you all is okay on this end. That's prison can be. I guess been a little little crazy here. Guy Got Stabbed Fifty Times heard. He's on life support. Prison is so full of violence. No words can express how I hated in here Phil. It's been such a long road not much else really just trying the best. I can to continue to deal with this nightmare so overwhelming at times. Sometimes I just pray. The gods he's fit to bring justice in the near future Amen. So tire filled. Aw Take Care. While he was in prison. Gable was moved around repeatedly. He got transferred to Kansas to be near his sister. Who's ill and So that explains the last one but the the transfers before that I think some of them were just punitive punitive. I mean Kevin Kevin believes he was transferred to the particular prison in California just because it was so dangerous and they they would have been more than happy to have him get killed things. Turning point when Gables plight caught the attention of a federal public defender now brown. They continue to get things done. I just wish it would be faster. They don't understand that it's been twenty two and a half years. I've been locked up and that any chance to have a family is slipping away always pictured myself with a wife several kids on a ranch and join fishing and hunting with my kids riding horses etc.. I've got nothing that fifty two years old in prison. ISN wrongfully convicted. And why do you travel to recover from heartbreak to trace your DNA in to escape the Internet. I'm povey residing. I traveled for for the four hour lunches. I'm Jaylen Gerber. I travel for the ancient ruins and future relics. We are the globetrotting founders of the beloved travel website Fathom and our new podcast way way to go explorers all the reasons we travel every episode features a tale from an interesting travel. But these are not your average what I did on my summer vacation. Stories travel is all about wonder mishap and discovery on this show. You'll meet an actress in rural Kenya explaining the INS and outs of safe sex. A graffiti artist tagging his way around the islands of Southeast Dacia our producer arranging a high fashion photo. Shoot in the desert with puppies. Listen to a way to go on the iheartradio APP on Apple. PODCAST wherever you get your podcast on October seventeenth two thousand fourteen. Eighteen Brown filed amended version of Gable's original petition for writ of Habeas Corpus this time with the proclamation of innocence along with a one one hundred eighty nine page supporting legal brief it was an astronomical task. First of all she and her investigators contacted all the material witnesses and got them to. Recant admitted up their testimony. She was using phone records. She put together an airtight. At for Frank on the night of the murder at the time of the murder this could have been done before it was really a brilliant piece of investigation and argumentation. The one thing that impressed me so much was in one of the appendices of her report was a picture they had found in the state. Police evidence lockers Michael Frankie's Whiteboard the whiteboard. He was using with his staff. The night of the murder they were having a meeting. Talking about. The talk was going to give you the next morning to the Legislative Committee and on the Whiteboard the last entry was the the the the fire in the shed was obviously going to be. The last item on his speech was the most important thing he was going to leave. The legislators with and the Asiad fire was arson and for insurance purposes which cost the state of Oregon. Well over a million dollars yes and it was final proof that yes. He was investigating corruption. This is what the state had been fighting against so long the idea that he could possibly have been investigating corruption. Here was the proof of it. Finally the photographic proof of it. Here's Nigel J. Quiz Pulitzer Prize winning reporter for the Willamette Week. I think the federal public defender's office did an amazing job of tracking down a disparate group of people and getting them to tell something probably close from the the truth and they told in nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety-one and you know that it's very heartening to see that now brown in particular Nelin her colleagues were willing to put that kind of those kind of resources into a guy that nobody cared about. I mean you know those few reporters who are kind of obsessed with this case and then a small coterie of people cared about frank cable but nobody really cared about cable and and for them to invest vests all that time and all that shoe leather into getting those people to recant so pretty amazing piece of of Work Brown also brought up the confession of Krause being omitted from evidence as well as Natividad by forbidding the defense from presenting the jury with evidence of Third Party guilt along with other glaring violations of Gables Constitutional Rights Brown made the case. That not only did Frank Gable not commit the murder but he was completely innocent of the crime for Phil Stanford. The petition was an impressive presentation of the argument. Frank Gable had been arguing all along. I realized reading in these letters from Gable. He understood he'd been reading the case for years and he understood that as he says in the letters here they knowingly set me up they knowingly joinly made up the evidence against me they knowingly obscured and confused the evidence on my alibi he understood it and he was sitting there locked up in one of the worst prisons in the country. Life Without Parole really without much. Hope at that point sending me letters saying we need to investigate this. We need to investigate that. It wasn't until the federal public defender. No Brown presented her brilliant study of the case the abuse Corpus petition to the court. And I had a chance to read that that I I must say for the first time I really understood the case I mean it's absolutely brilliant and the analysis is good. The evidence is also brilliantly presented is quite innocent and here is the proof. Steve Jackson covered gables initial trial for the Statesman Journal. Here's his take on public defender. Nell Brown's petition. I'll al I talked to her at one point and sees admiriable and that you know she went to bat for Franken and did her job. And that's the sort of you know attorney so you want to have on your side you know we should all get to have that sort of a an attorney on our side on April Eighteenth two thousand nineteen US magistrate. Judge John Kosta delivered his ruling but just today a federal judge ruled. He must be released from custody on less the state of Oregon decides to retry him within ninety ninety days. He has filed multiple appeals. Today the judge ruled the trial court messed up by not allowing evidence. The showed another person had actually admitted to the crime. What what struck me? Most of course was the judge's statement that given the evidence that was available then and new evidence that had been brought it forward. No reasonable juror would vote to prank able. Here's reporter for the Portland Tribune. Tim Robbins thoughts. Why they prosecute Jonny Krause when he made the confession even even though he recanted it? You know the one professionally made had sufficient detail to convince a cost that you know it should have been interim evidence. Why did I did not prosecute him and then Salon Gable? I have no idea. And I don't know that we'll ever know that For Kevin Franken Phil Stanford. After nearly thirty years news of the ruling in francs paver was beyond emotional. Here's a voicemail voicemail. Kevin left me that night. Lauren this Kevin Oh man own second round. I've ever quite sources bike and this is. I don't know what to say. Here's foul I got an email from Jim Redden he. He was the one who'd done the best job of keeping up with Nell and and she had sent him an email. Saying Gable wins. I mean that's her way of doing it. She didn't say we won. And I it still didn't really hit me and at some point I forgot just what it was it hit me and and I could feel my tears. Squeezing out of my is And of course I talked to and And he said Yeah. I cried like a baby and I said the METOO After Judge Kostas Decision Kevin received a letter from frank dispersal the emotions. I feel may two rulings awesome but as I told my rain it's raining. His wife then stabbed ebbed mattress being cut shot. I'm afraid I can't hold a job in the free world broken man. I'm willing to fight and overcome it. I'm still John. Prisons still scared to believe it can finally be over. I May Balk at Free State. Run wrongfully convicted me. What to see Phil Thiel and I'll be stuck in here for? Who knows how long so tell them? Getting dressed up out to leave Hobie uncertain now able to believe this this is truly over. CEO Soon Frank Freedom After thirty years on Friday fifty nine year old Frank Gable will walk out of prison now Oregon's Department of Justice has ninety days to either release gable or retrial. Frank Cable did walk out of prison into the arms of his wife on June twenty eighth two thousand nineteen but the joy of Franks thanks. Newfound freedom was short lived. The State of Oregon appealed the decision the next month. The Oregon Department of Justice is appealing. Saying it believes gable. Gable remains a danger to the Public Kevin. Frankie thinks the state is running out of options and excuses. The state's not gonNA win their appeal. Marion County is not going to retrain. That they can drag this appeal ad for years and they don't have a case against him period. They have no witnesses. They have no evidence. They've now we have an open case coming up on. The final episode of Murder Oregon. Loose ends are tied. People were never satisfied with salt mustache five today and we present the pressing issues that remain. There's a letter there is that I knew your brother was killed because he knew you too much anew. Stepping on toes to call out the people who now who killed Michael Frankie Murdering Oregon's hosted by Lauren Bright Pacheco GEICO and Phil Stanford executive producers are no Brown Lauren. Brad Pacheco and Phil Stanford Supervising Producer and lead editor. Is Taylor Chicago. Sound design by Tristen. I in McNeil story. Editing by marital written by Phil Stanford Matt Riddle and the one bright project of music written and performed by the Diamond Street players and mixed by Taylor's or coin with music supervision by Noah Brown additional music by tristen McNeil archival elements courtesy of K. G. W. in Portland Portland Oregon the station behind the podcast urge to kill. Murdering Oregon is a production of iheartradio. In what is it that makes us human connects us now. Remember texting my husband videos of her saying like I found the perfect dog. What what are those moments that turn the ordinary into extraordinary and I saw him and I just went? That's my kid like he's mine. I'm Callin Bov host of the new podcast love. What Matters Chris Presents your story? Shares real stories of love and compassion from real people all over the nation. Listen subscribe on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Trailer Drop | Somebody
"I want to tell you about a new investigative podcast called somebody it's hosted by Chapelle Wells, who for the past four years has been investigating the murder of her twenty two year old son, Courtney. Police according was shot in his car and drove to a nearby station in Chicago where police officers did everything they could to help him, but the official story didn't line up. Became suspicious and went. Detectives wouldn't release video footage of the police encounter. Pearl teamed up with journalists to investigate what they found shocked her the new podcast somebody chronicles Sha Pearls Journey to learn the truth about her son's murder. It's a story about trost race and the police in one of America's largest cities. From the invisible institute, the intercept and Topic Studios in association with Tender Foot TV. Somebody is available right now. Listen to somebody on the iheartradio APP, apple, podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Check out this clip, and while you listen search somebody in your podcast APP make sure you subscribes. You can get new episodes every Tuesday. We are. The average black family trying to fight against the huge city. Everywhere we tired. We hear the doors getting slammed in our faith. My name is Pearl Wealth. They, want you to stop fighting. They give A. Child is dead and just move on I. can't can't do. This is the story of my son Courtney. Copeland. Two Thousand Fifteen is the biggest here of my life. He was a good child. He loved his family with them. A ladies man, even with Artie and his grandmother he got that smiled food I just remembered thinking to myself like. Where does he all this energy from? Chance, the rapper according to Copeland was. A good friend of mine. In Twenty Sixteen, he wound up with a bullet in his back outside of Chicago, police station Did this to. Yourself in. Ask forgiveness from God, and it's the story of my search for the truth, so we would would flyers and we were on the radio. This anybody can help us get answers. You WanNa know what? Did you see anybody running? How many shots not s stuff was axed? Along the way I teamed up with journalists, and we took this case to a whole new level, okay. Shots fired the broad. I was working emergency room, and I remember him specifically been handcuffed to the bed. What do you do with this information? None? This makes this to me where the guy. Sense. This is a podcast about trust and the police. A rhyme her back in highschool. Here to protect us. Who protects us from you? This is somebody a CO production of the visible institute. The inner south and Topic Studios in association with Kinder- foot TV. So. This is somebody's child. Somebody deserves the know what happened I deserve to know what happened to my mind. Coming soon, March thirty first.
"I don't think that you know everything about child. Because there's nothing that they're not telling you. I knew that this is going on. And i would have went out there and brought much child back afrika. Hardy was murdered in two thousand fourteen. It seemed completely random. But it wasn't. It was part of a pattern today. Indiana police say that seven women found murdered over the last few days may be victims of serial killer. They weren't even looking and seven women died. I at least knew that there was a serial killer active in gary. I was assigned to do a really interesting story and i needed the uniform. Crime report included on. That cd was a file. I had never heard of what it was was line after line of individual murders. The i thought i had was. Could we teach a computer to identify connected cases to find serial killings from iheart radio and tender for tv this his algorithm a podcast investigating a modern serial killer and how he could have been stopped. The bodies some of them found concealed abandoned homes had been there for months. They're not paying attention to. This story has the potential to change. How homicides are investigated all across the country. Her lana work dated have time for They'd still believe that he has a trail of bodies from texas. All the way to here indiana that will you know many women. He's actually keynote. I think gary police department should be looking at some of those old cases. They still may have a killer out there. Al them launches june fifteenth. Listen and subscribe on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ep 5 | Depravity
"I'm Katie couric and I'm back with my new podcast next question with Katie couric. Next question aims to make sense of our chaotic complicated gated an ever changing world one question at a time. I look forward to figuring this all out together. Listen to next question with Katie couric on the iheartradio. JIO APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast murderer and Oregon is a production of iheartradio After Mike Frankie Staff gossip and the Drug and crime community linked to men to Jonny Krause who actually confessed to the murder and ten Natividad In our last episode Natividad Childhood Friend. Vince Taylor said he believed Tim could easily have been the man who killed Frankie. And he wasn't the only one there were a number of people in the underworld who right away thought that Natividad had been involved. I'll one of them was Greg Johnson. His name was he was one of the inmates who came forward in the eighty. Six investigation and He he's back out on the streets in the drug business again. Greg Johnson I met Timothy Natividad in the Salem drug scene in the early eighties. In nineteen eighty. Three Johnson was jailed for robbery charges. Essentially taking the rap for Natividad locking in their association and when Johnson was released nineteen eighty-six. The two reconnected the morning. After Frankie murderer his drug partner John Bray was driving down the street Going home from work release and and Greg hailed him. Got Him to drive into a parking lot there. In roths and grace told me Greg Johnson was squatting he was he was obviously scared and had taken and a lot of math and he told him that he had picked up. Tim Natividad the night before At the Dome Building and and and that's all break could get out of them but it was clear he said that and John's was trying to tell him he knows something about the murder. Online right Pacheco and this is modern Oregon. Nigel J quiz is a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative investigative reporter who writes for the Willamette Week in Portland. He's a tall lean man with a direct intellectual way about him that mirrors his meticulous reporting in two thousand seven Natividad drug. Buddy Greg Johnson reached out to Ni- Joel from Portland jail claiming to have information about. Who Killed Michael Frankie I was skeptical as you would be. But he said enough to make me willing to go see him and he had enough information Russian enough specific details and a good enough story that I think I went and saw him four times. He said that he had often served as muscle. Missile or backup for that he would come to drug deals with a gun. And sort of be the enforcer and Natividad had asked him to drive him to the office. Wherever Mike are Frank was killed? It's called the Dome Building. And that he later picked Natividad up and it also had driven him to another location in Salem. Subsequently the data received an envelope full of cash and the man Johnson claims deliver that envelope of cash in Oregon Department of Corrections official and and not just any official actually the warden at the Oregon State prison which was then the largest prison in the state so his story was fit into a narrative. errative that many people had speculated about which was that Frankie's murder was not a car pro gun bad as it has been portrayed by law enforcement but was a contract killing work straighted by corrupt prison officials. who were threatened by Micra Frankie eastbound a story plausible plausible again? I couldn't prove it because key players are dead so the question was. What did Greg Johnson have to gain gain by coming forward with the story when I talked to him he was facing twenty year sentence and his stated motivation was in the nineteen eighties in Nineteen eighty-six? I believe he had been a witness in a corruption proceeding against senior department of Corrections officials. He had basically said. Here's what I saw. These guys corrupt just to remind her. That's the same nineteen ninety-six investigation into corruption within corrections. So Johnson said since Nineteen eighty-six he'd considered himself a marked man for speaking out against that corruption. But why would he come forward with this. Let's two decades later. What did he have to lose then? He said he knew that. Department of corrections officials had ordered micro. Michael Frankie's murder. So he thought he was w vulnerable so his view was he's going to do twenty years in the Oregon State. Prison system is a marked man Dan for two reasons. He's unlikely to survive so at the time he had spoken to me. He had oriented to be an administrative segregation and people people call it the whole in other words he wanted to be separated from the from the mainstream prison population. So stated motivation. We'll see one of service time in another state where where he was not under the thumb possible retribution of people that he thought were groped. Whether you believe Greg Johnson or not like Mike Vince Taylor Association between Tim Natividad and Michael's murder and another connection tying Natividad to the murder would soon come forward. Conrad go see is very unusual characters. Obviously intelligent is his artistic at least at one point in his life he was quite out of control. At this time he'd been serving. I think eleven years for a knife point rake. He was due to get out on parole in fact he was scheduled for release on parole. Roll week before the murder then about six months after Michael Frank is murdered. He goes to his counselor in prison and tells the counselor that he knows something about the murder. He says he was approached by Tim Natividad to do the murderer and he knows that Scott mcallister. The the prison lawyer arranged it is their record of that. I pulled up the report by Lawrence Conrad's Counselor Osler and it says this is what the Task Force wrote from his report. Lawrence was interviewing Garcia concerning institutional matter during the conversation conversation Garcia told. Iran's this to Frankie was killed by Timothy David Natividad. This was arranged by Scott mcallister. So that's the information information they had. Wow now the police have an official memo from someone in corrections that they just can't ignore counselor Laurent's then does what he's required to do and he writes short memorandum on what Conrad is told him. Senate to the Frankie Task Force which of course creates a problem problem for them. Because it's now part of the public record and they can't pretend it doesn't exist so they they send one of the lead detectives Ken Procedure to talk to Conrad. Conrad and it's clear from report that they're not really much interested in talking about Natividad and he doesn't even ask about mcallister. The the lead detective on the Task Force doesn't even ask Conrad Garcia about it or if he did he shouldn't read anything about it. Got His report here to nothing about mcallister callister. So then what happens to Natividad as a suspect in the investigation at that point drop in. That's pretty much. The End of native dad bad as far as the official investigation goes. That's incredible the camp pursue him without pursuing mcallister. So when it comes to meet quality makes a huge difference in texture and taste and even though it might be better for you and the environment a lot of the higher quality meat you find at. The grocery store is just too expensive for most people's budget thankfully there's butcher box. What's what's your box believes? Everyone deserves access to high-quality humanely sourced. Meet at an affordable price. That's why each month which are box. Ships curated selection of the finest. It cuts right to your home. Choose from one hundred percent grass-fed and finished beef. Free range organic chicken heritage pork wild caught Alaskan salmon and sugar and Nitrate Rape Free Bacon. No antibiotics no added hormones. Just meet the way meet should be and right now you can get two pounds of ground beef and two packs of beacon absolutely free plus twenty dollars off your first box when you visit butcher box dot com slash iheart or use the Promo Code Iheart at checkout. That's butcher box dot com slash iheart or use the Promo Code Iheart at Checkout Conrad Garcia's his name comes up in connection with another Salam criminal when it comes to theories about Mike Smarter. Buck Burgess. Remember that name. That's the guy who who lived the house near the Dome Building. The same Guy Jonny Krause. The man who confessed to Mike Smarter than recanted said was involved. Here's Kevin Charles. James Belden Buster Aka Buck Burgess Aka bear a teddy bear multiple convictions actions and according to Kevin Burgess was also charged with murder. Serve time for manslaughter. In California where he killed a baby Numerous robberies assaults assault in the prison Ear Inn Oregon. He was a person of interest back in the New Mexico prison. Riots was a major shed disturb or from what I understand and he was an inmate down there along. I think about forty or fifty other inmates from Oregon Oregon ship down there because of overcrowding in the organ system he's formally family married to Military Garcia Melody. Darlene Rothschild was her maiden name Melody was subsequently married to Conrad Garcia Seiu. WHO's an inmate doing time at the Oregon State Penitentiary? Conrad Nick Garcia. DOC purchases cellmate. ooh Melody and the drugs turn out to be a common thread that connects them. All while melody passed a few years ago we spoke with her daughter. Carrie who was subjected to her mother's drug dealing abuse and depravity My name is Kerry Rothschild. I am the daughter of Melody. Rothschild's elds Garcia Burgess. I don't know honestly melody. Rothschild Burgess then Garcia. My mother's I think fourth and fifth husband were inmates. Instead of Dayton she married people she's married to eight times James. The death certificate was a nightmare I handled that Kerry and her siblings had been raised in an upper middle-class home in Utah. Aw until her mother abruptly decided to divorce their father and moved to Oregon to marry burgess a distant cousin that's when their lives and mother really really began to downhill spiral. My mom was on methamphetamines. She was using them with. IV Drug. Use and I and they're often laced with different things and There were people that were doing heroin. They're as well And I don't believe she was really into heroine. Her primary job was crane because what they called it at that time and you but there were all sorts of drugs around us in person. Carry a slim and delicate she. Apparently we inherited her. Striking looks from her mother and her refined features are very much in keeping with her regal last name but she projects a toughness and uneasiness about about her that reflects her abusive upbringing. It was just a nightmare. The whole thing was a nightmare. It was just complete insanity My mom was is just not a mother we were. I don't really know like as far as My sister and brother and I there was no will sense of family. My mom was just completely doing everything. And anything you know for her own self for visitation herb life. Completely involved getting up and going to the prison she literally would do her makeup in the morning and go do prison visitation. Come back back and do our make up and go to the prison again and that was absolutely the center of her life like that was social. Go to the prison two times a day to visit one of her husband's at the time he was always neck. That's always what I remember was always neck progress Garcia and actually. Actually the whole thing was she was completely insanely obsessed with it. It was that was her entire life. Was I gotta get him out. It was all she talked about was Nikomas conspiracy about getting him out and you're either with her against her and that was it Aside from visiting the man she was obsessed with melodies other. Perhaps main purpose was moving drugs into the prison and contraband out. I know she was bringing drugs and I know she was getting jewelry. So those would be the two things I would say and when I say jewelry I mean it was always gold and Different kinds of jewels in jewelry so And bringing drugs in and it would be in balloons and different things melody would even take carrying her siblings to the prison for twisted family. Family visits especially the beginning. She wanted us to embrace nicky as our Stepdad. Actually she wanted us to call him dad and things like bad so he was young. He was his oldest my oldest sister. Young good looking guy softspoken really looking back. I see like He. He came across as a really nice guy who's very well mannered Gentle you know. It was like like crawl upon his laughing. Love your daddy melodies. Multiple daily visits to the prison would obviously obviously raised red flags and violated visitation protocol. But it was allowed to happen and it happened openly when we're at the prison. It seemed like she knew knew everyone worked there. She did have a few people. She knew she was talking to them. But she had been going to the prison for visitation visitation. so He'd be like you stay right here and walk up and talk to people and she had a way about her though. She never inferior like she knew what she was doing while we were there. Here's Kevin Steak. She's moving a Lotta drugs into the joint. She's going into visit three times a day seven days a week which is unheard of. You've got to have some some sort of connection there to get in that many visits. You're not allowed that many that often unless your name doesn't go in the visitation records so you must have known somebody that could get you in with that documenting your visit. Look back now and like remember. She didn't seem scared door and they I remember her having to go into the bathroom. And I think that's what they did. is they put stuff in the bathroom. And then the inmate would go in the bathroom and get it and you know. Put it in there. But or mouth or wherever melodies interaction with prisoners and corrections officials wasn't limited to presents and carries home soon deteriorated into a disturbing flop house due to overcrowding in the prisons inmates would be given periodic passes and they'd wind up crashing at melodies place to vary physically reconnect with their weiser girlfriends. They would do conjugal visits House Your House. Yes so while they're getting out on pass to a to do whatever job. It was to trade for an early early parole release. Their wives would be able to meet them at our house and see them that died or nights while they we were out nobody would be the wiser. Yep and according to Kevin Prisoner passes were also passed out. TABOR's the people that were involved could get inmates out anytime at their leisure their permission permission slip getting signed from that from the maximum security prison. It got to be pretty bad on there and I remember or one guy that he was a biker that most people would not talk to this guy he came in. He looked at our house. He looked at our fridge. He saw nothing in there. He looked at me and he said I'm taking you to the store to get some groceries. He fills his saddlebags with groceries. We got back on his bike and came back. I think that's all. He said the whole time that he was at our house. There were some scary people. I I think I probably shouldn't have gone on his motorcycle. You know like I think back but like he probably wasn't Arabia's abuser. You know His priorities Alex. Do Ahead. Su Twenty four seven hundred people coming out of your constantly and they're like Australia your hair fucking talking. They're ruining things stealing they're doing drugs. There's needles I mean it's horrible mm-hmm. When was the last time you watched your home movies if you're like most there's a box in your closet of videotapes film reels and photos? That don't get watched worse. They're degrading reading. Hi I'm nick and I'm Adam. Ten years ago we started legacy box to help families convert their aging media to digital. Here's how it works. Filled legacy box with your camcorder tapes. CBS Film reels and photos. We professionally digitize and send them back on. DVD's thumb drives or the cloud ready to watch and share legacy box is the world's largest most trusted hosted home movie and photo digitize her over four hundred fifty thousand families abuse legacy box and we've been featured on Good Morning America Rachel Ray and the today show dust off those recorded moments elements and preserve your family's history so it can be easily passed down for generations experienced peace of mind and enjoy reliving the glory days or your legacy box today visit legacybox dot com slash forty and for a limited time. Get forty percents off your order. That's legacybox dot com slash forty for forty percent off legacybox dot dot com slash. Forty Kerry would have been barely thirteen when her older sister Christy fled the dysfunctional chaos carry lost her protector and the room they shared when a move to another house left her with no space of her own own sounds weird but all of a sudden my bedroom became under the kitchen table. Just took blankets piled them over. They made a bedroom for myself under there. Because that was the only space I have. I could create to have like privacy so that was my my bedroom so seems weird but tracy had a bedroom because she had now to kids can't hear remember the situation choice around the house eventually got so dangerous. That Melody Finally decided to send Carrie away. She sent me away because she said that they were trafficking kids. It's and she was trying to keep me safe and so I laughed and of all the places melody could have sent carry including her biological father's Functional Home Melody Chose Conrad Garcia's mother. It was so weird. I look back on my dad's awesome. So I'm in Hell's Bird California with a Jehovah witness in like a liberal area. Where are there like teaching sex education? And she won't sign off on me being able to participate and I'm like coming from this totally lake. AAC interesting situation like where things were not exactly on -servative but Carrie had grown up around the type of people. Her Mom surrounded herself with and at that point was using drugs herself so she willingly returned to the dysfunction. She knew I remember calling my mom and she's it's like better get back now. You know you sent me away and then Eventually I ended up getting on a I was a greyhound. Bus asked me and that's really when Tim got in. I got in my life right around there that tem or roosters carry calls him. Is Tim Natividad. Tim became one of the main suppliers of melodies these drugs and he was a frequent visitor to the house but he wasn't like the usual criminals that hung around he was well-dressed. Good looking you know. had good dope. I mean he was just a completely different situation. Wasn't coming over to just like come. Hang about how you have purpose. When he came there was a businessman does definitely businessman Kerry would barely have been a teenager at this point and the dashing being Natividad stuck out because of his looks and his companions? When not come to our house usually he would come alone and he came to our house on a couple of different occasions with different people? One time he came with WHO I believe Scott mcallister And then the other time he came with someone who I believe is the guard from the prison. They pulled art in government vehicles. And I only know that now from working in the field of federal lines seeing government vehicles knowing you know well we know that she definitely recognized a guard from the prison who she'd seen visitors desk so that is the person who had to allow her mother melody to go back and forth breath several times a day into the prison you know in and out of the prison carrying drugs. That was the major game that was being played here beyond that why other state cars would have been there. I don't know except that. Obviously you can't deal drugs that openly into a prison without protection show at some point or another corrections officials state police officials are involved. She specifically did know in have detailed conversations for stations with people Scott mcallister. He came with Tim and they had conversations and my mom was very much like talk. Talk Talk and she wouldn't shut up. My mom wouldn't shut up. She was like a conspiracy theorist trump crazy. She couldn't keep anything quiet. Hit I questioned. Fill about carries recollection of the players. Involved she also believes that she. We saw Scott mcallister in her house. Did she mention that to you. Oh Yeah. She said that she saw his picture in the paper and she said Oh yeah I remember him. He was in our house at this point. We want to stress that we have attempted to reach reach out to Scott mcallister and others mentioned in this podcast multiple times via phone email and certified letter requesting an interview and or statement regarding guarding the murder of Michael Frankie to this date. No one has agreed to our requests but Carrie is adamant that correction officials polls were in and out of her home visiting her mother. Did you know what they were talking about. I would try to avoid it as much as possible but she would always always just blab her mouth about everything and we have this phone call. Oh had this call. They're going to call and we're going to go in. We're GONNA have a call and when they come we're going to be in there you know and I just didn't pay attention to at all but it was the big deal that I know a big deal. It was also around this time. That melody began to treat carry like currency a possession. She could trade read for drugs and money and this is how carrying Tim's arrangement began. That was really when I started getting involved with him and he has started coming around and And then he would just take me away take me away and then I remember. I was really intrigued. Him His always on his motorcycle motorcycle or and fan a fancy car and it was. You know I'm much preferred to be there. You know like hated being my mom's uh-huh it was just way better but then it was always like I needed to shut up when I was around people that he was with and I was okay with that like I was much much happier. Dear doing that then being at my mom's house fourteen he's Twenty twenty something twenty three twenty two. I don't even know. What kind of relationship did you guys have? So I guess this is the weird thing is that like. I don't know like I think that. She thought that she was going to be selling me for socks. And at the time I was still virgin you know and when I went with him you know at first it was really really tense and Her remember him coming around at first and he had gotten and Clemencia taking like tolls for Clemencia at one point he is like are. Are you like good with the smells like I'm I've never done this in. He was like what if her in. And I'm like Oh and maybe it was carries innocence or her young age age or just pity but Tim Natividad did something decent. He didn't push up on me at all and then he's like I a patient for you to come with me and I'm like oh I think at that point. I was just like everything. Huge like sunken heinous. Like on the. Take Care of you. In a very heartbreaking way ten became more of a caretaker right to carry than her own mother. Jim Feel you be trail from the person who's supposed to protect you. But but are you paying my mom again and again he never ever made me be them never was really confusing. You know I thought I was in love with him you know. He bought me jewelry. He meant truth. Fed Kerry's home life was so unbearable that to her time spent with Natividad was just better by comparison even when he would take her along on drug deals and worse I'd go with him and I would be quiet and I would look if you didn't want me to look. They did a lot of really bad things. You know a lot of really bad things. He was really confusing and he was always really really good to me. Who is really really difficult to sort out? Hard turned wins but he's characters so conflicted. He he was really conflict of person. Hear him like fighting. People other room follows Louis how to be like a big mobster as much of a caretaker. Natividad may have I've been and despite carries fondness for him. He was dragging her into extremely dangerous situations. I remember one time. We literally like picked up kilos of stuff and I just was with him and I'm literally like I was so so high because the method Moore crank whatever. It was so strong that I was like wound up and I just didn't know what I was doing. And I'm literally like lifting lifting kilos like I didn't know there accused but I'm just helping load them into shorties van like so many of them a quick aside Shorty shorty harden a drug dealing cohort of Natividad. Who will also figure into the Frankie murder? Trial Back to carry and Natividad Dad. Who's moving so much? I mean probably like fifty and I wouldn't shut up because I was so high and I mean I was a young girl anyways we saw wouldn't shut up but I just was so spun out. All I wanted was to not be at home. So that's all I wanted was really to go with him because it was better. Carrie would witness natividad irrational violent side. Firsthand we were at a house in. I don't even know where it was. I was too young to drive and I didn't know exactly where but we would go places and there'd be dealings or whatever they're doing I don't know I would never ask. I was outside. I would wait if I needed to wait in the car. The van or in the kitchen or whatever time I was sitting even at a table with a woman and he was in another room and there was a lot of shouting and then there were some gunshots than the door opened. And somebody in the other room conversely I don't know if him had shot one of the people as with killed him and he had over his shoulder and I'm pretty sure it was the woman that I'm sitting sitting with her boyfriend or husband and she just starts screaming and I'm I've had nightmares about this day forever but He takes them out and put some in a trunk of a car and then we drove in a short van and we took off and drove away and I went with him and I tim unfortunately clean up the blood in the van because it was on him the ban he looked at me and said we'll never ever speak of this again and I was so scared from the day now and sometime after that is when someone supposedly taps Tim Natividad to have one of his prison connections. Kill Michael Frankie while out on a pass. Here's Kevin the idea that they would get somebody out of the joint to do. The murder seems a little overwhelming. I guess to the average person but you have to realize that you know guys like mcallister. CALLISTER had been in and out of that prison thousands of times and had a key to every passageway every booby hatch in in the entire joint and there's hundreds of them and he was very familiar and very comfortable in prison and for years. You've been able to have this this relationship with some of the inmates that you'd be able to profit from those relationships so it has no stretch of the imagination that if you want somebody to commit mid a criminal act where would you go to the farm that grows the criminal acts but the prison and that you could take that person out and they had had the perfect Galibier to commit the crime and get back in and who's GonNa be the wiser so he had access to let anybody in or out that he wanted at any time you could go in and out at his leisure and he could take anybody out with them at his leisure and take him back at his leisure. Sounds like a pretty foolproof alibi. By if people think you're in prison and two pretty good alibi. Even if that were the case in terms of Conrad Garcia none of that would have been necessary because Garcia was already scheduled to be paroled the week before my Frankie Nice murdered. It was almost a little too convenient. Conrad felt like he was getting set up and he he got scared so he got himself into trouble that got him putting the whole just a few weeks before the murder he was going to be the guy years after Michael's murder when the theories regarding Tim Natividad and Scott. mcallister began to emerge. Kevin wanted to speak to Conrad Garcia face to face to confirmed the things he'd heard so we tracked him down at a halfway house in Portland. I went up there and asked the guy liked me. Conrad see it and he. When you're my name is that I don't know if he wants to talk to you because I know what you're here And he went and talked to Conrad and Conrad came out and he said let's go sit down. I got some things to tell you. You know you expect a pretty rough character but he seemed like a very muscular and a Bob obviously bid on in the weight room a lot. He said that he felt guilty. That Mike was dead that he could have prevented if if he'd opened his mouth sooner and he started crying and I started crying to see him crying and he apologized to me that he didn't stop it. He said you're a good man and he shouldn't have died and I could have prevented. I didn't I said how could you have prevented it. And he said would. I told the police everything that I could have told them. I I knew specifically that Tim Natividad wanted me to kill Mike. Frankie not just a big guy with corrections it whoa specifically On the next murder in Oregon another woman blinked with Tim Natividad reveals his obsession with his weapon of choice. Tell all tim huge knife collection with controlling in her timothy threatening to kill me fairly and with murder I told God I'm ready Ready murdering Oregon's hosted by Lauren Bright Pacheco and Phil Stanford executive producers are no Brown. Lauren by Chaco and Phil Stanford Supervising Producer and lead editor. Is Taylor Chicagoan. Sound design by Tristan. McNeil story editing. By Matt Riddle written by Phil Stanford Matt Riddle and Lauren. Bright Pacheco music written and performed by the Diamond Street players and mixed by Taylor's or coin with music supervision by Nicole Brown additional music by tristen McNeil. Murdering Oregon is a production iheartradio Josh mates from Dateline. Do you need your true crime. Fix on the go. They'd line episodes. Those are now available in podcasts. You can listen in the car or on the beach or wherever the summer. Takes you mysteries with a twist from dateline. Subscribe now so you don't miss an episode.
Ep 2 | Discrepancies
"In a future ravaged by climate change and fossil fuel dependency a special heuristic horror and intrigue each short-form episode drags the listener through our media saturated and doyle each on the iheartradio APP apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast I told you that Mike was annot hostage personality and he told me in one thousand nine hundred seventy six the story about the assistant attorney general they were transport boxes what they would call us some shit like that if people was in front and the guy was in back and they pulled a knife on Mike and put it to stroke in the car you got my Wallet Fakih Yes driving Mike Frankie jumped from a moving vehicle to avoid becoming a victim it's Susan with a knife at his throat if you kill me or cut me at least I've got a chance way of you do anything and everything to get out of the situation regardless that's where the mic Frankie Ism came in because you don't know if the son of a vicious except Mike gives us shit about anything there steel out of a state car because Michael Frank is very physical and he knew how to handle himself but to me that's given Mike size that something would have gotten dented whether he was big Molise Clawson Mike's Assistant Director told me she was instructed to go to the I said everything looks exactly the way it did this afternoon lunch breath Michael in his car this afternoon and at least you know whatever I check out and this is murdering Oregon I can remember very close growing up a lot of stuff together ran away together committed two blocks up to a water tower could see the house anymore we got scared went home play ball together and it was a huge neighbor this is after the war the energy of bounded and the Frankie household but both parents were quick to reel it in which really gets on your dad's got a mess to clean up what against Christ pat by Kevin and Mike was Jesus Christ tent Mike Breath in his mind would have to go through the step category because he was so enraged it's also easy to see where Mike's Voice Guy and trustworthy loyal helpful friendly courteous certainly didn't support him and his good friend with his friend bulldog was his name getting no beef with so he goes away to college second year I think he came ever drink hard liquor he sucked drinking hard liquor ago no consuming tasks him on the shoulder and says aren't you Mike Franken he turned around this report defined Russell serve the beginning of the West it's cowboy country well Yeah Patten Mike not Kevin Edge by climate change and fossil fuel dependency especially gentle world's largest oil corporation each short-form episode drags listener through our media saturated world inspired by underwater apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast in the early reports of Mike's murder that much more glaring Kevin Remembers Persson told me on the phone when I was in Florida that he'd been shot I would trigger a memory about something Mike told Kevin over the phone when discussing his worked for him and I said why don't you just fire him and he says I can't fire me doesn't work for me as for shadowed the tone for the investigation according to fell Stanford once Kevin got out there he called him and then Peterson never returned to call and he was GonNa get Phil also explains the office dynamic and makeup within the Department Frankie had already informed others that he didn't another very significant member of the corrections department replaced and and we're talking about Scott mcallister who was the AG lawyer who had department of Corrections officers on the outs with Frankie comes through what Dan I talked about first morning I got in here and identify berm of corrections Scott mcallister is a key player and Scott was our Assistant AG and Russia I have confidence in his recommendation something to that effect he was not out more loyal to him and the old boys system than Frankie especially I think he made a number of people in the department uncomfortable probably the head of there's up until then and it wasn't probably going to be the case for him Dave had a very strong grasp on that kind of information those kind of details uncomfortable feeling about Dick Peterson I didn't have a lot of confidence in Oh of course now but he always from former state representative chuck sides the tourists through the prison was so in side the prison I saw Khodr inside doing if he got a stair from some it harsher terms that I described and we go back to walking expecting to find Mike Spotty that night just not where it wound up there was supposed and that he finds out that he's dead that he was shot when he wanted Cali with him as a witness and he walked into the Dome building expecting to is no bike there and there's no blood cranny going all the way up to the third floor yet they missed Mike just that the window hadn't been broken out and they're broken pieces of glasses in that rule they tried to call Dave Collie who was assistant director in charge of a financial matters turns sure and he came in you have to remember Collie was the last guy in the eight thirty nine something like that and it's sort of remarkable he went to see if he was there it's hard to explain why his explanation Michael Frankie had committed suicide he was distraught Pietersen decrease from came by the Dome Golden and it was pretty stoic he came into my office and thank his wife to the airport today she's Leaving me and I wish we were in the same session because I think he was gonna be in the Senate testifying and I was going to be in the is to practice with him later that day I did at the end of the day when I was done on went in but back to the meticulous search story which local television reporter Eric Mason searches have been made several times all over the building and for some strange rushed through the glass and tried to open the door with his own hand and Kevin takes issue ooh kind of odd but at least Clawson offers another you were walking up the main front steps you couldn't see what was on to come forward in in this case was a janitor by the name order January seventeenth he had just gotten off work and had left into his left about forty feet down and sounded like someone had across the field they're the grounds a tour of the old Salem Hospital and some real problems right off the top because first of all hunts Acre this guy would have been NBA quality but more than that the second for P. wasn't staggering he didn't seem to be any sort of distress to try they got hunt sacred to say that he was walking briskly back to the the Dome Building but but it wasn't Michael Frankie plus the hottest podcast of the last year the Ron Burgundy podcast disgrace link and podcasts over two hundred eighty thousand podcasts all easy to find and free to soon after the murder of another mysterious figure emerged the night of the murder too many specifics but they said he was a eh olive skin and he was seeing in the Dome building at six when he turned a corner and there was a woman who worked in personnel surprise because she'd he went that direction he was wearing a dark suit and women thought it was a pinstripe the murder after it was locked and no one knows who he is surely which brings us first thing what was planned planned that he was supposed I don't know if they knew that he always used the North Portico doors of the main entry oh him and now he's getting loose and have to stop him could have been stabbed in plain sight his car which was parked in a spot reserved the patent. Kevin agreed to take me there so I could see it in person you brothers the Dome Building has become a memorial for Mike and the Department of corrections candles and a framed plaque that reads in memory of Oregon Department of Corrections take a look at that it's gorgeous dedicated statue's Reese and Sarah Kane lamp we left one year with because throughs don't governed by we make the memorial in open lease clause in came out over here saw his sitting open side door claiming made sense that he would have already been up there yes on blood splatter evidence and he also invented the fingerprint rush system city blood spatters that started right about where the clean that car and the top Kooning sport gaining tips came in about possible killers and at least two involved mention of right here one hundred fifty feet I don't agree even one drop of blood this was cordoned off and then everything became the guard who found the body went up and immediately came here in waiting for the cops crash unit came from the Fire Department and there was work then they had to wait for the state police crime lab truck I think when that decision was made then you eliminate being able the money and watch were still on his person his briefcase in computer us four legged mouse what he would have had and what he did had a they would have held the meat of the corruption investigation and they weren't he's he added down in Florida when he came to visit in fact it also had room that if chill amounts of office paperwork which seems to have disappeared too there shredded and apparently they were shredded the day after Mike Spotty and I think he called somebody and it got reported why do they go in tentative chuck sides is still bothered by a conversation he had with Mike weeks before remark well at least it wasn't a gun he goes you don't understand a nice far dangerous and a he was taken out exactly like that and that was the ironic thing that happened aw standard questions you ever seen anything Mike have any drug habits my needed stuff like that dude but kind of drugs did recreational drug steady ebb not only would state police officer Lauren Glover and pitted because of it absolutely Dale Pearman glover both denied the family being didn't raise her concerns you didn't raise your concerns and yet there was concerns that he was targeted absolutely and it wasn't until we up three days later to talk to Renfro who is the head about the organized criminal element and that he had to clean house and identifies got four days Shen ignored that when he finally got Mike's Autopsy all the arrogance that those fucking bastards is what grips me to this day insist use a bunch of criminals political uh-huh frappes with a disturbing passed Akkad producers are no Brown Law Rep gieco and Phil Stanford supervising producer music written and performed by the Diamond Street players and mixed by Taylor Sha coin with If you want to know deputy going on right now well I've got just the podcast for eighteen minutes every weekday morning I'll catch you up on what just happened with the help of other buzzfeed eight on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen.
Introducing Good Assassins: Hunting The Butcher
"It was to find the guitar. Trial second find him not feeling the true story of an israeli spies undercover mission to hunt down a savage nazi murderer. Twenty years after world war. Two hunting the butcher. He had this special characteristic of being able to dive into a person who was supposed to be his inside inside. Meal held the record for most false identities. Something like one hundred sixty over the course of his career. He could become almost anyone. Herbert tucker's was a mass murderer. He helped hitless forces killed thirty thousand men women and children. The survivors gave him a name after the war. The butcher of latvia mission simple to arrange the death of one man it was not a mission for one it was a mission for six million. Who's another reason for the mission. It's something that. I found almost unbelievable a part of history that seems so bizarre to me. Couldn't have been real but in nineteen sixty. Four israelis decided it. Herbert sucres had to die when he was given the mission. It was like reopening a book. The unfinished story of his parents and their fate. During the war there was a final chapter to be written. Listen to hunting the butcher for free on the hawk radio app. Wherever you get your podcasts. Joined the hunt.
Ep 1 | The Murder
"When it comes to sports history doesn't change or does it come find out we're against them as they achieved their title of best of the best iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts fell is it okay if I ask you a few more questions I am the newspaper columnist who branded Jespersen the happy face killer he on this story the one thousand nine hundred nine murder of Michael Frankie who is the director the highest levels of politics and power it's never been solved public official who discovered corruption in his own department and he was stabbed in the heart in front of the building where he worked and they made up the evidence against him put him on trial Norm Brad Pacheco and this as a columnist for the Oregonian mini called Ville obsessed the word obsessions kind of funny anyway I mean it I I will plead guilty to that two option he writes about bill once told me he prefers the company of criminals to politicians security president was in Santa Fe and Mike Liz with the AG's office Mike Fell Kevin projects the weariness and frustration of thirty years spent trying house fight the frames of his wire rimmed glasses he looks a lot like pictures of Mike I in Howell and John Wayne and he's always holding a fat cigar whether it's lit also I didn't have a lot of interaction with Kevin but Mike and our very close Michael was a high school football star and wound up with a half scholarship to Kansas University so that's how he wound up in New Mexico original law school gave him a full scholarship was living Stephen Law School according to Pat Mike was offered a job at a under drug interdiction program which interacted with all the states that border At the time Mike Frankie moved to New Mexico the and overrun with cockroaches and mice food was inadequate and prison officials a US and what followed was one of those violent prison riots in US history Armao from anywhere we started talking about these was horrifying torture brutal killings men pushed the inmates were breaking out of prison to get away from the most unspeakable his six inches of blood and gets in the dormitory where the the inmates dead and over two hundred injured twelve officers have been Civilian inside the president of the National Guard took the prison over body parts he had a pair of Lucozzi boots at his house that it's just stained with blood and his permanent reminder of the the lesson they taught he had a family room that he had gone desperate he kept his handgun Smith and Wesson forty four magnum on the top of that and his pager Turgeau and but there were constant reminder of that was listen to fix the problems that caused it moving onto the attorney general's office where he grams he felt that education was the path of prison to break the cycle occasion of the college ribbon cutting was after he had moved up here to it's driven to improve corrections regardless of the obstacles Toco corrections in the state of Oregon was experiencing its own difficulties how's the eighty-six investigation when a local state senator. Lb appeared to have an investigation well the state police didn't have much choice the governor was one per se stealing a cow nother for taking tools and that was the purpose of the investigation just to sweep it under the rug and instead of one cow there was out of the prison drug dealers in the prison protected prison officials using they're they're brilliant solution was to let some of the prisoners out for week and let other people use their bunks houses and so around the prison there were a number of stover all of that you know what's clear is that after the state police negation hadn't gotten to the bottom of the rampant corruption in the corrections department Fast forward a year there's a new governor impeachment for a living and it's hard for me to keep up sometimes with all the news around trump's impeachment wild historical moment everyday I'm talking to buzzfeed news reporters who've been following understand W. T. F. is really going on right now listen and subscribe Neil Goldschmidt it mayor of Portland very very gifted guy that's today he's an affable businessman with a booming laugh and tons of stories about Oregon's lost the next election so he came home and was hired by Nike and decided to run for governor when he won the election he did a pretty Armenta crashes and one of the biggest problems like the mob corrections a cousin an uncle a brother sister and they basically interlocked and protected adds to Goldschmidt knew he had to do something about corrections and Mexico corrections department by taking the mob leaders and putting them in isolation overwhelmed by overcrowding and corruption. Here's fell Neil word of prison warden you you see in the movies he was a lawyer he was a former judge the same guards the same inmates he's getting the same information tim needed fixing he wasn't given the full picture he didn't know wrist reasons dealers didn't work out there was just a whole of reason assistant director Elise Clawson who recalls their first meeting with the governor Mycosis they're listening kind of like oh well us as someone who was until she aspects and Hill Mike Frankie was a transplant very impressive guy very capable L. dignified black man which is worth saying in Oregon because there are very few it was the head of the Legislative Committee that Frankie was supposed to were the person who still cared we had a real sense of fold and so it was really very exciting former representative chuck sides I can't change people can detain them if they want to change they changed everything the justice system you can put all the effort and money you want to into the catch basin and the punishment families child abuse substance abuse parenting skills that optimism was ill-fated quit support his job became increasingly difficult and began
Ep 7 | Patsy
"Hi this is celebrity acting coach Tracey Moore and I have a brand new podcast. The spirited actor my clients include BUSTA rhymes fifty cent la La Anthony and Cardi Cardi B.. Just to name a few ever thought to yourself. How can I learn the craft of acting and break into the business well each week? I'll talk to industry guests like casting. Directors agents agents directors producers and celebrity guests. So join me on the spirited actor podcast each week on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast. Cast Murderer and Oregon is a production of iheartradio previously on murder in Oregon as a columnist for the Oregonian in the Portland Tribune in more than one hundred columns about Michael Frankie's murder here's a public official discovered corruption. His own department the night before he was to address the Legislative Committee on this very subject. He was stabbed in the heart in front of the building where he worked. I think he made a number of people in the department uncomfortable. Probably the head of business. Stick Peterson Scott mcallister. Who is the AG lawyer who had for the previous twelve or thirteen years then assigned corrections? That's the third member of Department of Corrections officers on the out with with rank after Phil wrote an article alleging the corruption and Krause had intimated to pat and confesses as much in greater detail to the investigators krause recant his confession and distrupt as a suspect out out of nowhere. They didn't like the people his confession would ultimately lead to. That's what it looks like a week. After the murder. The police held a press conference. French announced they were interested in talking with a man who had been seen in the Dome building quickly became known as the man and the pinstripe suit. Conrad go see at six months after Michael Frankie's murdered. He goes to his counselor in prison and tells the counselor that he knows something about the murdering says about it says he was approached by Tim Natividad to do the murder and he knows that Scott mcallister. The prison royer arranged uh-huh. Tim always carried a knife. Tim with a huge knife collection. Tim was violent told me he killed somebody in. I think it's Michael Look at this composite. Drying they laughed and said you can't convicted man. There's nothing we can do By August of nineteen eighty. Nine Jonny Krause. The man who confessed is to the murder of Michael Frankie then recanted had been dropped as a suspect in the investigation. That's when an internal memo landed on the desk of then Governor Neil Goldschmidt that would raise some serious concerns about the investigation into Michael Frankie's murder. This was something we didn't find out till some years later. Actually we didn't know about it at the time but as the heat was building up on the Frankie case because they had dropped krause and they had nothing else in sight or so. Are we thought Governor Neil Goldschmidt S- legal aid wrote him a long memo on how to handle all this pressure. That was building up. There's a political problem for them and it is very revealing. We've obtained a copy of that memo and in light of what we now know. There are sections that are at Asked concerning here's some excerpts. Nothing in Michael Frankie's files or elsewhere. The memo says indicate he was working on anything other within his pressing budget problems. And Mike's Family made no mention of the much reported phone call about Organiz criminal activity when they had their initial interviews computers with the police. But we know that's not true. Yes yes we we also would later find out for law officers notes that in fact the Dave Kevin got out here to Oregon after after his brother's death He told the police about this. And then he called again from Santa Fe from Mike's funeral to reiterate the morale goes on the Frankie family's activities and the presence of Phil Stanford ensure that the issue will continue to receive attention by the press and public until some decisive step is taken to resolve solve it so they just want it to go away all they do indeed Lauren Pitch Account and this is murdering Oregon another key takeaway from that memo to Goldschmidt. Goldschmidt was the idea that an FBI investigation wasn't exactly welcomed by the Oregon state government. I know from my own interviews at the time the FBI was interested in getting into this. They didn't make it public but certainly Goldschmidt and his people knew it and they did not want the FBI to investigate corruption down. There was there resistance to the FBI stepping into the investigation. It's how to get rid of this problem. It is also possible that you could get federal assistance but I believe it is crucial not to turn this into an FBI investigation if you went any assurance that it will stay within the bounds arms. You have set if you want any assurance that it will stay within the bounds. You have sat. What does that mean? Well it meant something to the person who's writing the memo and it meant something to Goldschmidt even when we finally got this memo When it finally became public public it wasn't clear what were the bounds that Goldsmith had set? What were his reasons for not wanting an investigation? That's that's the question. It sounds sounds like he wanted something contained and then eight months later in April of nineteen ninety seemingly out out of nowhere. A small time drug dealer from Salem named Frank Gable is arrested and charged with the murder of Michael. Frankie Frank Gable has found himself a key figure in the Michael Frankie murder investigation. He says he didn't do it. He is currently serving a year sentence in the coups county. Jail for assaulting his wife life but others say he's done much worse than beat his wife Might Kieron's convict from the Idaho State Penitentiary Claims Frank Gable told him he killed Frankie during during a car burglary. Remember at this point Jonny Krause had already confessed. Knowledge of the murder recanted his confession and and was granted immunity to not recant. His recantation Liz. God love also had gone to the police with her belief. Tim Natividad was the man the pinstripe suit and could have killed Frankie only to have them laugh and say they couldn't convict a dead man Frank Gables name came out of nowhere even to the three journalists most heavily involved in the case Phil Stanford TV reporter. Eric Mason and Steve Jackson at the Statesman Journal. Here's Jackson Gable wasn't on my radar at all at that time at by. I just time I was already having difficulties with the way the investigation was handled. And Jackson found the arrest of gable oddly convenient for the the police the only one that was really pursued was the easy one for the please Basan some guy who had basically no support no money. We know friends people going to turn on him. He was sort of an outsider even cut group. He was an easy target us. An easy target with with not many resources sources to call on to protect themselves. Here's fills take the time. No one knew what to think I mean Gabel was a completely new name out there and all of a sudden the state police are promoting him as their prime suspect even now now. It's something of a mystery how they picked him and it appears that it all happened in about may of eighty nine just as krause was does this appearing as a suspect this is when cross started talking about possible connections to corrections officials. Gable was out so clearly confused S.. Two what was happening to him and struggled to articulate. What is accusers could possibly gain by pinning the murder on him here? He is at an interview at the time of his arrest. They believe it's because a lot of people like Kerns and several other. Inmates are jumping on the bandwagon thinking. Well we can get our charges dropped. You know. Point the finger gable. We'll get get our charges job so my name keeps coming up. The Mike Cairns Gable spoke of in that interview was another of Salems usual usual suspects who happened to be at the Marion county lockup. When police arrested Gable he was the first in our rogues gallery of criminals used to try and tie gable? The killing was the first one to go public and say that Gable had confessed to him he would later go public and say he made off which of course he did. That's how it got started. And then they State police started finding other so-called witnesses who would say that gable confessed to them but according to gable he had a solid alibi and one. That didn't exactly xactly paint him. As a saint he claimed to be busily committing an entirely different crime. At the time of Mike's Murder I was a friend of mine's house named Chris. Real real os with him and two other girls. I didn't leave my home. I believe until at least eight o'clock that night and I went from there to a friend of mine's house and delivered some drugs and then went to his house and spent the rest of that evening there and came home about five that morning so fifty two days away from finishing a sentence for an unrelated domestic abuse charge Frank Gable now feared he was going to be charged with with Michael Frankie's murder been so scared each day. You don't know if you're getting out fifty two days or if you're going to get put the death penalty for a crime. You didn't commit you know so. Yeah I'm scared more scared I've ever been in my life. I believe that I walked into a complicated drug. Bring in really. Don't know how complicated it was until now and it will get even more complicated and even more perplexing there was never never any physical evidence linking gable to the murder his cellmates false accusation along with the testimony from characters entwined and Salems underworld were the only quote unquote evidence. The police had to go on. who were the people who came forward as the state's witnesses Well they did not come forward that the police selected them and help them manufacture the stories. They wanted using lie detector tests. That's one of the more remarkable things about about about this case than other way lie detector tests were used to shake testimony the two star witnesses for the state from the beginning where Jodi swinging the engine and shorty hardened. Jody was a seventeen year old runaway. Who'd been in and out of Hillcrest? The girls school certainly certainly part of the weaker scene there. Shorty hardens names. Come up before. He was friends with Tim Natividad. They ran in the same drug dealing circle. Yes they did business together. Shorty and Jodi would become the state star witnesses Lincoln Gabel to the murder after twenty-three polygraphs grass. It took them that long to get Jodi to tell the story they wanted. Jodi story was that Gable had by the way she hadn't net until about six months later had driven her to the building that night and while she was at the Dome building she called Shorty to come pick corrupt. They didn't have cell phones in those days so she had to walk a distance to a payphone. which the police were? By the way we're never able to find or dente fi and and The story is that Just before the murder occurred shirty drove up in his Mustang parked there. Jody got into his car. Shorty said he saw Frankie coming out of the Though don't building yelling at Gable who was in the car at the time he got to the car gable. Lunged out of the car and stabbed Frankie. Shorty said he started his car and in and Jodi drove off into the night. The state didn't seem to mind signed the version. Jody and shorty settled upon contradicted the account of the only eyewitness on record Wayne Hunt Sacher the maintenance man who had seen scene two men interacting night frankie was murdered. They put all these made up witnesses in front of the grand jury including jody I and a shortage of course in fact they even allowed jody shortly to meet privately in a room before the grand jury so they can get their stories straight and they did and the testified that they had been there at the don't building on the night of the murder and seeing the murder testimony at then coerced. They threatened her. She finally came up with the story that she was present when he stabbed. Michael Frankie Shorty was is a local tough guy. Done business with Tim Natividad he was deeply entrenched in in the Salem on underworld made multiple deals with the cops along the way and they got him to testify against Gable to and Kevin says great effort went into bringing shorty heart and an Dan and getting him on board. There was a very very big Police presence in Renton shorty down for a parole violation city of Salem. Cops Dan at least helicopter and they are tracked. They hit state. Police suspended him down and he was doing his best to get right. I think he ran over a large like a ten foot fence or something like that and tour attended into sand or some nonsense anyway. They eventually caught him. Tuck them to Salem hospitalized surgery and as it was coming out of surgery he said he was the states next. No you dollar baby. Holy do is hang rap on on a murder rap on frank cable. It became a pattern. Here's Tom maccallum. The lead investigator for Gables Defense. Shorty already in Jodie's lineup of all the people that they did all the polygraphs around sort of develop their testimony. Uh they're all druggies. Do everything was was pretty crazy. Here's fails take but several months later. Jodi spoke with Tom mccollum. Who is the lead investigator for the defense and confessed that she made up the story she wasn't there wasn't it wasn't what happened? She also talked to Steve Jackson at the Salem paper and then she took off the state police went after her her and arrested her and brought her back and put her in jail so she tried to flee town so she wouldn't have to testify or should do jody and shorty warrant alone own and feeling pressured by the State Police. I was at my desk. The OREGONIAN got a call from a prison guard in Clark County jail which is just right across the river in in Vancouver Washington and he said you won't believe this but I've got a guy over here who says the State Police are pressuring him to make up a story about gable. You WanNa come over talk to him I said Oh yeah so I went over there. And there's this guy guest. He's in his twenties and says they want me to say that Gable confessed to the murder He didn't that he went on to say he'd already been convicted on drug charges and they were really pressuring him this. US Attorney had charged him with violation of federal gun laws which would add another decade or so to his sentence and so he says Gessler says to me. What am I supposed to do? What's the guy supposed to do? All of which could explain gables shock and confusion being targeted local television reporter. Eric Mason was one of the reporters who spoke to gable following his arrest. They do you remember how you found out that Frank Gable was arrested. I think it was the press conference. That deal Penn had in my thinking. King was wow. There's so many other folks that are probably yet. That's the last person I want to show you know. It didn't make sense the idea that he was the alone. Assailant of Michael. Frankie just there was more to it than that. Obviously there were smarter than that. He just looked like like a kid. That would ever get close to Mike Frankie after being up close to Mike Frankie and seeing him play basketball and meeting him on the steps capital to do it interview with him and it seemed like a mismatch. Frank Gable was thin and spindly and looked like someone who had been on math and and just didn't look physically strong enough to take on a guy like my frankie. It just doesn't make sense. When Mason sat down with Gable after his arrest I he just didn't get the feeling this was a murderer and he'd interviewed a number of them was at Oregon State penitentiary? And I believe leave my first few interviews around the phone with frank gave all and the little bell goes off in my head that says this person is telling me the truth. He just was the wrong guy. It didn't look like a guy that I was interviewing. That was responsible for the crime. His body language didn't reveal it his I Didn't reveal it. His presence didn't reveal it. You got the feeling that he was a guy who doesn't involve math involved in small time in crime and certainly had a problem with his wife but a guy that was not a person who was a natural born car. You're at all everybody Noel. Around here. Executive producer of murder in Oregon and true crime is absolutely a passion of mine but occasionally you can get a little dark exploring all of these cases so in. I need a break. Something of a mental pallet cleanser. I like to play a game. Called Best. Fiends is a challenging puzzle problem solving game name. That also has a story. It engages your brain in a fun approachable way. It's fantastic for casual players of all ages. You can spend as much or as little all time on the game. Is You'd like lately. I've been finding myself with a tiny bit of downtime or Newington wine and I'll play it maybe a couple times a day. I'm I think I'm at level twenty three but that's the thing it keeps updating adding new levels every single month so there's always new worlds to explore. Engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Download this five star rated mobile puzzle game on the apple APP store and Google play for free. That's friends without the our best fiends. Meanwhile Kevin Frankie is back at his home in Florida. Battling the issues of trying to keep interest going in his brother's murder from from long distance. So it was just constantly poking the bear trying to keep the thing going and keep it in the face of the public ears of the public. Do a video shoots from a station down in Florida where I'd get in front of the blue screen and do the remote shots and things like that so everybody was getting to know me and getting no pet and the visibility of the Frankie brothers the media led to a nickname with certain members of the press. I don't know who coined the term the cranky brothers but we became the cranky brothers to the press and I liked Goldschmidt paying a net group. Didn't get it. Yeah we were crazy pissed off. That nickname didn't bother them. The anonymous calls in rumors circling around. Mike's Murder did rumors that you hear from phone calls that you get that. You don't know who it is so I'd get calls remembers. You know your brother mutilated. His heart was removed. Weird Weird Shit. I had one letter. That was Michael Skilled as part of a satanic ritual and this was carved in his chest and Blah Blah Blah Blah. And I'd send this tomb and they said we can't comment on it at the same time. The estate continued to push the narrative that gable was the killer after months of back and forth phone calls and over a year. Since his brother's murder Kevin got a call from the police. Captain heading up the investigation. Got The phone call at home on April ninth. The morning of April ninth going to say it was around seven or eight o'clock in the morning and it was Captain Dennis donal on the line and he stated his purpose with the call student for me that they had indicted trank gable for the Burger. My said something to the effect that you gotta be shitting me. Why are you calling me instead of 'cause I was expecting that if there was a call that it become the DA's office and he sad eh? We flipped a coin. And I lost. So that's how they chose to tell the brother of a murder victim that someone one had been indicted in the crime And Kevin was far from convinced date indicted the right man. Those are going to become Out there for the trial and he's had no. You don't need to do that. You know put yourself through that your family and all that you'll get contemporaneous updates from Everybody here that what you know. Why didn't he want me to come out there for the trial and I said I'm going to be coming out there anyway? And there's this long paused and they said Rob. There's nothing. I can do to dissuade you. And he said anyway. Don't try to contact me. I'm going on vacation a week later. Kevin would decide to leave Florida altogether. Never anything to stay in Florida for so an August sixteenth of nineteen ninety. He set out again again for the town where his brother was brutally murdered on the way he stopped by Prairie Village Kansas to visit for his mother's birthday it was the first time he'd seen his parents since Michael Staff as he walked up the path to his childhood home he was greeted by his overjoyed mother and it was beautiful summer morning. I was tired to sell shoes for Soroush Mile. Man Come Out of the front door and they didn't know it's going to be there. Bhalla Mega Baby. Should I was here. skipped down the stairs like that years. It's good to see them and I told them I was thinking about going to Oregon and they were trying to talk me out of it anyway. I left the next day. And the entire trip Kevin's thoughts were on Mike and his accused killer. The time I seventy West came up I was there and and Western Colorado opened up before me into Utah and Washington the Sun go down going up into Idaho and coming down. The Columbia River Gorge in Oregon the middle of the night pitch black and then dawn in Portland Oregon. Seven o'clock doctoral into town and it was like blanket here. I was but certain people seem to know. Kevin was there too and didn't exactly Ackley give him a warm. Welcome the very first night. Did I was in Oregon. I got my tires slashed and then I got a note saying in your welcome to Oregon. Now go home was placed on the the windshield and it wouldn't end there. I started to feel like like I was being watched. I started paying attention to that night. Started saying the same cars and the same people and stop and they would go away and then they'd find me again and did do it does make you feel a little nuts. But despite this Salem is work heaven would remain gene determined to solve his brother's murder no matter what and one of the first people he got into touch with was television reporter. Eric Mason. I'm doing an interview with Kevin Right away a within a few days of income into town he has no word stay and he's trying to find a place to stay and I say you know. Listen I'll do anything to try to help help you so I think he did at one point campau overnight in the office until I could find something to you know stay with permanently. Mason's office became a sort of bunker for Kevin to pour through all the interviews and press conferences inferences involving Mike's Investigation and gables indictment to the other video equipment. There is in the interviews with Scott. mcallister that has emphasised allowed the bullshit that Goldschmidt was bouncing off the walls and likening us. My brother Pat and myself to in one he added cut doubt but he said he's like hysterical female. It was just another in a line of statements and insults like the cranky brothers used to try to discredit discredit. Kevin and pats efforts he. I remember early on that. Kevin had the level of suspicion in his mind and that would put cops on edge and that he was not always suspicious of the people that surrounded Mike in the prison system he he was also very suspicious of the people that were investigating his brother's murder and he made that really clear early on and didn't pulling punches that he wanted some some level of oversight and that any reporter that was going to take extra time to go digging. He was going to try to help them with what was going on with the with with the investigation and Kevin turned to the press for that oversight and to help him draw attention to what he considered serious flaws in the investigation allegation. The Steve Jackson was on top. Of every day from the Statesman journal Phil Stanford had a column that he could push the limits of journalism into opinion. Really far with some really speculative and Phil Stepford. Actually I think brought the ire of his and you know colleagues at the Oregon. I mean he kept a lot of it coming and a good degree of content within the Ballpark of what is possible when corruptions going gone but fill quickly finding himself at odds with his own paper over his columns on the Frankie investigation. Well the pushback was coming not from my immediate superior but from the news operation and the news editor who is Supporting a couple of they basically inept reporters who had been assigned to cover the Franken case but were instead just carrying water for the state police and the district attorney so every time I raised questions about the case. They felt that they were being criticized. I think in eventually and very soon they started dropping things into their news stories about me very strange. It was very strained and Phil was one of several prominent journalists raising questions. Here's Eric Mason again. So there were questions about the way that the DA was handling things and with witnesses. That was Steve Jackson's specialty. Here Steve Jackson. That's what troubles me. The boast about a lot of the case. I think the prosecution was myopic and they settled on this is this is what happened. And we're going to do everything we can't crew. This is what happened. Not that something happened. And we're going to gather the evidence and see what makes sense and what we can prove and they all seem dead set on avoiding the possibility that corruption within corrections could've led to Michael Frankie's murder or examining the staff members. He was at odds odds. Were at the time of his death including Scott mcallister. The Assistant AG. He told Kevin he wanted removed. Here's Eric Mason. Odd On. That was a question. What was it about Scott mcallister? That irked a brand new corrections director from New Mexico so bad he didn't WanNa go on vacation with him. There would later be talk about that vacation. A team building ski trip that Michael Frankie went on shortly after joining corrections in Oregon Frankie. An avid skier was looking forward to the work retreat. But for some reason abruptly not left years later Eric Mason would interview Mike Frankie's then secretary about his hasty return from that trip. Whatever we make said was is within a day of Mike arriving something had upset him so much that he wanted to get right back on the road for Oregon either either on a plane or in a rental car to get him back as quickly as possible because he didn't want anything to do with the people who were on? That ski trip was mcallister on that ski train the S. and that actually would he returns. It is clear to the inner circle their corrections that Mike wanted wanted Scott mcallister. Not to be the attorney for the corrections division. Any longer mason's pursuit of the case led him to tend to tip. It adds axe Liz. God love who as we spoke about last episode had come forward to the police with information she believed pointed to Natividad as has the potential murderer and basically dismissed. She was del Of the main character inside the world of Michael Frankie. You know I had a flow chart in my office with photographs Tim to the dad and Liz Gabow were on my chart right away. Yeah career this at first. LIZ DIDN'T WANNA go public with the information and was even cautioned by authorities. Not to so you and your her lawyer make the decision to go public. We didn't why you know we just wanted the truth to come out. We needed closure Michael needed justice and we just we did. We had just a feeling that was tim. That must've been like a difficult decision. You had just been through a really traumatic experience. Traumatic is right. It was. It was tough I was really scared but also also drawn strong leader to do it to talk about it since Kevin was spending so much time at Eric's office and new Liz was a person of interest. In his brother's there's case he went to her attorney's office to observe that interview. Eric was there in Lisbon and her sister. Karen was there and I was there and we introduced each other. They were going to back shoot lives so that they could just see the profile on TV. And and of course I can see everything. The camera could see the face old specials and things like that Eric Mason conducted the interview while Kevin looked on. Liz laid everything out on the line about her belief that Tim Natividad the father of her child and man she killed in self-defence was the man in the pinstripe suit suit. Michael Frankie's potential killer. I think that that really pushed a lot of buttons and not in a good way it. It made a lot of people extremely uncomfortable that I was sitting there talking with lose lose now coming out with information about Natividad activity. Kevin immediately saw something in Liz. That struck a chord with him. I knew the pain that she had taught and then she was feeling in the absolute horror that she went through with the murder and the trial in the accusations the bullshit basically and I could identify with that as he listened to. Liz Tell Her story. Kevin found more and more to identify with. I was is shocked that the system the state police the District Attorney's office the governor's people in the governor himself. Elf would take exception to me and my brother Pat having more than a casual interest in the murder of with my brother. For Christ's sake and to just chew off is going into your own business. We'll take care of it. We'll let you know if we find anything. So so you had that on top of the grieving and You know just a blood new fallen bullshit that I can relate to lose weight. You're so Kevin asked her out for dinner. The traumatized ex girlfriend and killer of his brothers likely murderer you stop and think about got it on my God. The two of us you know what we had gone through here. We are together on a date. He's like you know he wanted into spend more time with me and I did him and it grew pretty quickly but really we leaned on each other and it was very very nice. I didn't get any pushback. I Pat Morita. Said something like a share. You Okay and you're doing the right thing. They they pat new. Mirella knows me enough to know that I knew where I was stepping. And you know I didn't fall under this thing is as applying Eddie and that date ultimately it turned into what's now and nearly thirty year marriage. Despite the many obstacles they had to overcome while we make a great team and he makes me laugh every single day. He's funny yeah kids dogs and the cats and parrots and you know the whole thing is it's fun but all all of that came much later after Liz's interview with Mason Kevin continued to pursue his own interviews with people. He believed to be connected to his brother's brother's murder. Not Believing Frank Gable. Who would soon stand trial to be involved? That was leading Kevin deeply into salems criminal element it was also leading him into a very acrimonious and increasingly targeted relationship with the police followed. I thought that there was a chance that I could get pulled over on a side street or something like that. The byline would be Steve Reach for a gun. He did something stupid. Felt threatened that sort of nonsense. Police had taken to more than verbally. Threatening in Kevin will not verbal when there's a gun pointing in your temple happened. Several several occasions Kevin says has he was constantly being followed by state police cars and felt like he and Liz were endanger. It got so bad. They considered packing up and leaving town for good. There was is One time State police car pulls up next to me is over in front of me and slows down real slow and then another one suddenly appears out of a sidestreet in his next to me. And then there's one behind me and Liz goes us. Oh Shit pulled over or curb and a gas station and got around on the other side of the other direction. And they couldn't get off to pursue me but it was just a little. We know your type of ship. It seems they were sending Kevin a message judge. They wanted him gone. Hey I'm andy you might remember me though I'm still I'm not famous so maybe not. I'm the guy who started a men's grooming company called Harry's millions of guys have tried our products. We asked a few of them. Why and here's what they said? I'm Eric I'm Max ex. I'm Bob and we shave with Harry's the blades are about two dollars each and they're delivered straight to my door. I tend to be pretty picky when it comes to razors. 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There was an officer's advisory on the law law enforcement data system stating he could be armed and dangerous said officer safety advisory That the EH subject individual approach with caution something to that effect Down to carry weapons and regarding a assassin's rifle with a high powered scope in the trunk of his car. A gun that Kevin didn't have it gives basically any cop the wherewithal wherewithal to take you out if he if he's a dirty cap and there was also you know great possibility. Because that officer safety safety advisory that was anybody's opportunity to take my head off and say yeah we told you he had necessities rifle and he was armed. The all purpose was to give me the hell out of town I think and then it all came to a head. It seemed the Salem and state police were no longer content with mere intimidation. One night after drinking at a local bar with his friend John Bray things escalated. WERE COMING DOWN Centre Street. In Salem by the deck end in there was a Salem cockpit pulled out and started following me and then there was another one one and then suddenly. There's a state cap and Marion County cut. I think there were till six cars. Five cop cars in this white t bird and They're follow me down centre street and I only lived about a block east of Corden road right off centre under street and they let me up right as I got to. The stop sign kept going stopped a Corden road and the sirens came on then they will open it up. They kept pursued even as Kevin near his home. I pulled in right in front of where we lived and the console and behind me and all their lights are going on which way closer and and that was when they got on the PA system and gave me the orders to let me see your hands and exit the vehicle. And get on your knees. And I don't get a my niece. I sat there waiting for just wondering if I was going to see the windshield. Blow out before my brain's all kinds of weird things coming into my head and there was a guy sitting over to my right and I kept watching the cops. In my review Mir because they had the the light shining in the outside mirror here so redirected to sign the light back towards them and I had the my other Mir over here that I had so I could wash and see. Can I could see about five cops back there. And I saw a couple with shotguns and I saw the restaurant there in guns out I said Shan. Who is that guy took actor right? And he says it's fucking heart and heart was Oregon State Police Heart in Lauren. Glover used to do all the criminal investigations at the joint right. And he's got a shotgun right gun pointed in the window and that's when I really really really got scared. Yeah I did and then Louis came out and started yelling Kevin. What the Hell's going on John Sir Sir? father-in-law comes out of the House for Shug. And he says what the Hell's going on down there so all these people are coming down and and heart is looking looking around and he's screaming. Liz Get back in the house. How many witnesses? Everybody in the world and his brother and all the lights are coming on over at John's House and Dan this when they threw me in the back of the car and slam the door on my feet and searched the car and didn't find anything illegal. Obviously because there wasn't anything illegal on what grounds to say they were doing this. They said that they had gotten a report that I had threatened somebody with a gun and I said Said who wouldn't tell me and I tried to get the police report news. Anonymous tip phoned in that I had threatened somebody with Agai- on the only thing I could figure is probably fucking heart. Phoned it in and then joined the parade. Because he was probably given them coordinators or or where what's lodged phoned in from a payphone. Everybody was coming out and they wouldn't have been searched occurred. John was named John face-down out on the grass and boom they just disappeared. Guy said that'd be careful. Go on on the next murder in Oregon the state mounts baffling murder trial based on questionable. Witnesses told different stories sixteen different times. You can't rely on anybody testimony tests for natural a severely compromised defense team. If I was going to pick think an attorney to handle that case I would have picked civil on your people I in some of the shocking for offer stunt did not make sense. Murdering Oregon is hosted by Lauren. In Bright Pacheco and Phil Stanford executive producers are no Brown. Lauren by Pacheco and Phil Stanford Supervising Producer and lead editor. Is Taylor Sha coin. Sound designed signed by Tristan. McNeil story editing by marital written by Phil Stanford Matt Riddle and Lauren. Bright Jekyll music written and performed by the Diamond Street players and mixed by Taylor's Aucoin with music supervision by Noah Brown additional music by Tristan McNeil archival elements courtesy of K. G. W. W in Portland Oregon the station behind the podcast urge to kill. Murdering Oregon is a production of I. Heart Radio Are you a fan of pop culture. Are you up on game. Do you know the vibes. If not the ballers show podcast just to see if you keeping you in the know with the latest your favorite celebrities kind event and providing free games listeners. In need okay. burs with your favorite Ethiopian Su Solo and the key for Bryson. Now make sure you check out brand new podcast. baller show podcast available now. The iheartradio APP on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you get joe pack has.