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#245 In Memoriam 2018
Gilbert and Frank (aided by guest co-host Michael Weber) pay loving tribute to some of the artists and performers we lost in 2018, including John Mahoney, Barbara Harris, Tab Hunter, Margot Kidder and Bill Daily as well as former GGACP guests Ken Berry, Will Jordan, Charlotte Rae and Chuck McCann. Also in this episode: Laverne DeFazio makes good, Jerry Van Dyke breaks through, Burt Reynolds turns down 007 and Connie Sawyer opens for Sophie Tucker! PLUS: Marty Allen, war hero! The last surviving Munchkin! The magic of Ricky Jay! The villainy of Hal 9000! And Gilbert remembers his dear friend James Karen!This episode is brought to you by BlueChew (www.bluechew.com code: GILBERT).
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Sven was on a jury that sentenced a man named Paul Storey to death. He's regretted it ever since. Then, eight years later, Sven gets an email from Paul’s mother.The original article that Maurice Chammah reported with Sven about his experience on the jury: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/03/10/my-regrets-as-a-juror-who-sent-a-man-to-death-rowCreditsHeavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein.This episode was also produced by Stevie Lane, Peter Bresnan, and Kalila Holt.Editing by Jorge Just, with additional editing by Alex Blumberg.Special thanks Emily Condon, Maurice Chammah, Emanuele Berry, Caitlin Kenney, Jon-Mikel Tuttle-Gates, Amanda Marzullo, Mike Ware, Emily Fallis, Brian Reed, Sean Cole, Diane Wu, Christopher Swetala, Ira Glass, the rest of our friends at This American Life, and Jackie Cohen.The show was mixed by Bobby Lord. Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Michael Hearst, Blue Dot Sessions, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.
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After over a year lost in space, Mars Patel goes back to the beginning and finds himself in a wonderful new life that feels too good to be true. Stream the rest of seasons 2 & 3 over at http://pinna.fm Or, you can order all three seasons in a beautiful commemorative boxset, or season 3 by itself at: http://marspatel.com - You can also head straight over to our friends at CDBaby to pick up your copy. Follow the show on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Check out more great audio adventures at: http://bestrobotever.com Mars Patel is written, produced, and created by Benjamin Strouse, David Kreizman, Chris Tarry, and Jenny Turner Hall. Sound Design and Mixing: Chris Tarry Head Writer: David Kreizman Executive Producer: Benjamin Strouse Directed by Michelle Tattenbaum Music by Shawn Pierce and Chris Tarry Voice editing by Darian Newsome Additional writing by Nidhi Mehta. Associate Story producer: Rebecca Hanover Jaiya Chetram as Mars Patel, Natalie Mehl as Caddie, Kate Wolfson as JP, Wyatt Ralff as Toothpick, Carter Minor as Jonas, Rileigh McDonald as Julia, Mairead O’Neil as Aurora, Brandon Simms as Orion, Shane Epstein-Petrullo as Axel, Courtney Chu as Daisy, Fiona Kreizman as Epica, Michael Perilstein as Oliver Pruitt, Lipica Shah as Saira Patel, Ilana Ransom-Toeplitz as the computer, and Charlie Pollock as Mr. Q. Additional voices by Oliver Gould, Chloe Tarry, Oliver Kreizman, Sam Strouse, Logan Hall, Daniel Maloof, Emma Hankey, Eliana Brenden, Dash Kreizman, Jennifer Roszell, Graham Stevens, Alexa Ralph, Dina Perlman, Robbie Berry, and Tabitha Ginsberg.
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Aired 3 weeks ago 35:05
Berry Gordy, Jr.
In order to best align, our content, and our advertisers with your interests. We'd like to learn a little more about you. So please go to pod survey dot com slash masterclass. And take a quick anonymous survey once you've completed the survey you can enter to win and one hundred dollars Amazon gift card again, that's pod. Survey dot com slash M. A S T E R C L A S S. Thanks for your help. If you know the music of Diana Ross and the Supremes the Jackson Five the temptations, the four tops Gladys Knight and the pips smokey Robinson, Martha the Vendela 's Stevie Wonder today, just a few then, you know, berry Gordy junior. He was the man behind all those hits since he was the one who started Motown not just interested in selling black music to black people berry wanted to create popular music that everybody would love and he did just that before starting. Oh town. He did whatever he could to make a living selling pots and pans, boxing, working on similar line make cars, and then he tried writing songs that was his love. So how does it young kid from Detroit go on to create hits Ville USA and craft a legendary sound that is embraced all over the world. Everybody has a story. And there's something to be learned from every experience. Use your life as a class. This is masterclass with Motown founder berry Gordy. So I was selling black newspapers called the Michigan chronicle, Detroit people buy all my papers, and everything and I said, well, I've sold as many black papers as I can I'm like the number one seller here, I'm going to take these black papers into the white neighborhood because people are the same. I felt so I went down what would avenue Detroit downtown. And I saw more papers than I ever saw before. And was like incredible I'm gonna bring my little brother, and because we can make a fortune together. So I took him with the next week. And we saw no papers in the same white neighborhood. What would avenue downtown we so nothing? So I realized then that one black. It was cute to or threat to the neighborhood. Because no one spoke to I mean, it's like they saw us coming and they booed out of the way. So later when I go into the record company. My first few albums didn't input like faces on their the miracles albums called Mickey's monkey had picture of a big ape on there, then had ice brother's record. And it was with two white lovers at a beach. And then I had married wells record Cobb, I baby with a love letter in the mailbox, and they're all hit albums. And so that was a very good lesson learned so people can tell the book by its cover which made me realize all people are full of love all people are beautiful and the difference between us is so much less than the sameness. I'm from a family of eight. The boys were always clowns. We were always doing funny things putting on shows and acting and doing all kinds of stuff, and my mother was a schoolteacher and a scholar and my sisters were meaningful. And they did meaningful things. My father was a very very hard worker. And my idol was wanted to be a man like my father. He had muscles of still he works from sunup to sundown he provided for all of us and he killed rats. And I knew then I can never be a man by my father, and that had heard I wanted to be. A man so bad, and I was not that good in school. And I don't know why think it's because I was always trying to show off or do something different. For instance. My ABC's, I add trouble words, but I do them back with with the snap. And I would do it. Every time somebody asks me Z Y X WVU T S, occupy OEM. Okay. J h. Bang. You know, how it was like, hey, man. You know, he just said that spine vary. But we please say them front words say. Do I have to? But my sister had given me this poin- she said, you should read this because you may make some not your life. If you just help, you you wanna be man, you know, study this and the title was if by Roger Kipling, and it started off with if you can keep your head. When all about you, a losing theirs and blaming it on you. And if you can trust yourself, and augment doubt you but make them hours for their doubting too. I said, oh my goodness women. That's what's happening to me. It was the first time. I realized that I could be a man by doing mental things rather than working up to sun down and killing rats. I mean, which I could never do that the end of the poem. It said if you can feel the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run. Yours is the earth and everything in it. Which is more. You'll be a man my son. Oh my God. I could be a man just by my mind. It was just really a wonderful point for me. My mother and father had agreed to have six kids. And so I turn out to be the seventh. But they had this deal that they would each have turns naming the kid and every time it was my father's turn. It was a girl he begged her after six kids to have one more because that would be his pick. And he was hoping for boy and happy. To come along. But if they had stopped at six there would be no berry Gobi name berry Gordy Optima father. But I'm not wasn't because I was the chosen one. I had lived that life of feeling special. I'm junior. So I'm cool. You know, he waited for the seventh kid the name after himself. So there must have been that. So by the time, I heard the horrible news of I was not supposed to even be here. The diet been cast. You know, I was I was too cocky to confident I was still junior. You know, I was still berry go to junior. But it sorta let me know that while, you know, be cool the fellow you not that much but was a loving family. One of the greatest things that happened to me was being born and Gordy family that was the first thing because it was a family of people. And that's what I would later be a Motown as a family whenever Joe Louis fought. It was a holiday for black, folks. Because in those days for black man to fight for the world championship with. Man. I mean that was like unheard of. I was eight years old when Joe Louis knocked out match milling. And so we all listening to the radio family, and as he knocked him out four five six seven eight nine. He's out. It was pandemonium and everybody in the street was screaming lights were on. It was the biggest. Excitement I ever seen. All these black folks were just all over hang out windows running dancing, and it was just incredible. My mother and father were crying and looking up at them. And I'm saying what is going on in pop while you, you crying, you the strongest man in the world. What are you doing crying? You said Joe Louis was a hero of all the people, and it's black like me, see, my mother and father, cried and all these people if I could do something like that to make these mini comb. My goodness. I read a ways to my mother, and I wanna be I wanna be Joe Louis. You know, I wanna be Joe Louis. My husband is already Joe Louis. You just be the best berry Gordy junior. You can be and that will make me. So proud. I was a great fighter actually a good professional as started with amateurs. I wanted to be sugar. Ray robinson. I miss. Joe Louis was my hero for Sugar Ray became idle. I was in the midst of trying to make my mind music versus boxing, boxing music. I loved them both. But people would look down on me. Because when they said young man, what do you do? And I said I write songs, and it's I know, but what do you do? And so I saw these two posters, and there was stand can do Galveston on one. And then there was two boxers on another coaster the boxes were twenty three and look fifty and bandleader for fifteen twenty three and something clicked in my mind. Wait a minute. Then also, no girls ten days before fight. I'm what music to be my life. You know that? That's there's no question there. Once I decide I was proved box in the music music is my life. I started writing about everything paper clips faces boots. You know, the sky. I mean, I would write about tough, you know, I had seen this movie called a see you and my drains with Danny Thomas endorse day, and Danny Thomas was songwriter and Doris day admired her so much. So a wrote to song call you are you for doors day. You are you. That's all that matters to me, you are on only you can be a one eleven year and for the one that my heart burns for. Yes. You are you that makes you best of all I sent it off Doresday Hollywood. So. My father was a little bit concerned he said doors as not a little far fetched. And that's no. I know she'll data record it. And he says, well, if you're going to give up boxing, he was very disappointed because I had one all my fights many fights said, well, maybe you should get a job. You know, it hurt him to tell me that. But maybe you should get a job. So I did the automobile plant I went into originally to make money because I couldn't make it writing songs writing songs. No one heard of any songwriters ever making any money after I hear back from doors day for months, I took a job here. But I still was into music. So I was on a semi line. And I would work ahead of my step get in cars, and and get ahead, and then take time and write songs not see the cars coming in one door bare metal frame and not another door a. Brand new spanking car? I mean, just by the symbolize method and so loving music and being in music. I've felt that while I started my company I want that same thing. I want to an unknown artist kid a kid off the street come in one door, an unknown artist. And come out another brand new star. I got an opportunity to meet again in Jackie Wilson who worked with my sisters. They were camera girls and a club. He saying the song I was working on. It was a hit. And I was thrilled. But because quit my job. My wife who had three kids who never understood what I was doing. And why I was messing around with songs in the first place, divorced me. Even though I just bought a new house for the family after my saved up enough money to do that. I didn't have a place to stay because I had to leave did no where to go. And then know what to do. But I knew. That at least I know there's several people that loved him. But I knew that one that loved me. More than anything in the world. And that was my sister Gwynn, I went to her house with my bags. She said. Well, what's what's up? What's up not said? Well, you know, my wife's divorced me. And. And I don't even have a home. And so she said, well, why did you come here? And so I said, I don't know she said this you do you know, why you came here. And then I was coming tickled at the fact that she was like not taken in by mine. Sadness. She looked at me and said, you know, I get the food and said, I play the piano, I felt so much and terrorism is and I realized then how one was to be loved unconditionally. Wow. And I was feeling so thrilled and happy and sensitive about at great love that she had for me. And the words actually came very easily someone to care someone to share the only hours in moments of the spare to be loved to beloved over the failing to be loved. So it was easy. And of course, that became my big second hit with Jackie Wilson. So that's where the song came out. And all my songs were based on that same kind of principle. How I felt at the time, you know. And I wrote what I felt and I taught other people to write what they felt in L came back from you. Are you be who you are? And if you're a good person the world will share all of that. Jackie Wilson had another hit and hit and I became fairly well known as the right for Jackie Wilson. But I was not making any money at going to visit for myself borrowed money from family savings, which we had my sister Esther had set up and no one could get any money from there. But I really wanted to open up my own record company on what to do something. I always hear someone Jackie Wilson. And they say, yes, what he got to show for it. That's the point the point I asked for thousand dollars, they only gave me eight hundred and so I could start trying to go into business for myself. I've found a place on west grand boulevard that was a photo studio to the big windows in front which I loved and the garage I made into a recording studio we call studio a hits Ville USA was a place where hits will be made only hit snow flops. My job was to get the hits. And so we tried to create that assembly line approach and then. With them being a star in the music had to go through this quality control the same as in the factories. You know, you check this check that and so forth, and that seemed to work very, well, then we had artists development, which my sister's setup because they were models and they wanted the people to look good. And so they brought in this woman next in power, and she served his finishing school for them. Which had been on heard of we had a guy from the Paulo shot Charlie Atkins who came in to be the choreographer, and we had other people more king that was at the flame show bar when I saw Jackie Wilson. He came in to do the music comedy and stuff with the temptations and all these people, and we just had this family of people coming in all purposeful and all apart of this. So I had a relationship with every artist every producer every writer. I knew them, and I talked to them, and I would. Critique their songs to enough we made hits they felt like they were coming into a magical place, and it did to not be magical. People would come to me to audition for me or to sing for me or something. The voice was one factor. The quality of the voice their showmanship and all that. But really who they were is people was much more important than me. And there were many people that had phenomenal voices and were great singers. But they weren't right for Motown. They weren't right for our family. And so people that came in that were right for the family who maybe had great voices, but weren't polished or weren't this that we knew that we win we win. And we did there are certain ingredients and knowing that a song is a hit. We tried to do songs that would affect us and affect everybody a song is very powerful thing. And somebody's mind, especially young people. And so I explained to all my people that we wanted to be a company that was responsible a songwriter has a responsibility. I think and I taught my people what a child here's he believes what he believes. He does he thinks. So we stayed away from songs that were attacking anybody. Because a lot of people will follow our songs, the song ideas and stuff like that. And so we stay with that purpose. But because I had such a democratic company. I would lose arguments when we get us on cloud nine is a good example because I said that was a drug record. And I didn't wanna put it out. And they outvoted me, and I was very very upset. And so I released it anyway, and it was our first Grammy. So and then somebody came to me afterward say well, it went his first Grammy. So how could it be so bad? And I said well it happened one in. So that was great. But still. I still think drug record. So I had written about three hits per Jackie Wilson, repeat to be loved and lonely tear drops. And I was sitting in Jackie Wilson's office working on songs. So Jackie listen, trying to figure out what I was gonna follow it up with and a group was auditioning for them for boys and a girl. Jackie Wilson's manager, stopped him and said you too much like the platters goodbye. And I thought they were really good, and I'm sitting there, and then they walked out dejected. So I rushed out to meet them. And I said, you know, Jackie Wilson's Magid. And like you. But I did you know and some okay said, so what were you? You know, you thought he I was additionally like he was I said, I'm very Gordy. And he said very gory who you re petite and to be loved. I said, yeah, I know I said so chose long. She said I did. And and so you got any more. And he said, oh, yeah. Yeah. You you wanna hear? Some more said, yes, I like to hear what you got. So he pulls out a notebook full of one hundred songs and look at them. And so he started singing them. I would hear the first part of them and whatever. And then I would say, okay. Okay. That's not good. Because of this this this or that could be better because of this this this and then he he went to the next song. Well, how about this? And then I kept going and telling him what was wrong each one. And he got more excited every time. I tell him something was wrong. His attitude was in credible because I would say what was wrong with it. But not say what but you can fix that that easy. You know, you got you're talking in first person here, and you're talking to the same person the next person, but you referring to them as a third person is if you're talking to somebody else, you poetry is brilliant. I never seen poetry like this. But you don't know how to write songs you go and listen to the radio and comeback. Think take all these things upset. And come back with with something you think you got. But then I forgot about him a week or so later he rushed into my office. So I got it. I got it. I listened to the radio. I did what you said. I got it man. And I said, well, what is he says the answer to the number one record on the radio? I listen to the radio and record called get a job. That's number one. And I got an answer to it. And then he big in the Senate walked all day to my retired. I was low. I just couldn't get hired so aside and a grocery store help us light. And we need some more Agata job, John. And I say, oh my goodness. You know, incredible. It's wonderful. He went on in saying it, and that was how we met. And I said that's a hit record. And I'm going to produce it, and I did and it was a hit record. And it was the starting of their career and hits. Phil berry wanted a family like atmosphere. He started what he called the quality control system meetings were held each week. And everybody could vote on what Buzek Motown would release. Everyone could bring in their favorite songs they'd worked on and put them up for a vote egos and job titles were checked at the door, even berries one of my. Philosophies of sayings was competition, breeds champions. We would compete on everything. I mean when we had this quality control meetings. We competed on the songs, and they knew in that quality control. Meaning that they were immune to any kind of repercussions of anything, and they could fight about things. And in my company, I created this whole atmosphere of of safety of ideas and thoughts because I was in charge. But I made logic the boss, and I encourage them to prove that that was true by attacking me anytime they felt because we were on equal ground there. And this needs meetings. We had major fights, you know, my records better than yours and put it up put it put him up there, baby. You know, be my guest. I would then say okay this record one here. And so this is the best record here. But if you had. One dollar, and you will Hungary. Would you buy this record or hot dog? People would say oh that record by far in them. I would say about the hot dog, you know, it worked very very well for a while. And then it had some trouble because sometime the competition got in the way of the love because everybody loved everybody else and people would sing on everybody's records from the Supremes was saying, oh Marvin Gay's records, and and Stevie would play for some people the modern would play drums on everybody worked together. But the love as overcome everything else you've got to really understand people in by listening. You'll get the really kind of love people because you know, where they're coming from. If you don't know them, you can't love them. If you can't communicate with them. You can't love them. The first artist to leave was Mary wells. She was our number one artist. And I always want it to handle a female singer. When mayor wells was leaving to come in her attorney came in met with me. And so I was shocked at that. And I said, what do you know what we do here? And I went under tell him this artist development this Charlotte Atkins who teaches choreography this. Maxine pot will finish his school. This this that and then we have all these producers at work with her. And she's got a number one record in the country right now. Don't you understand what we do for these people? And he says well, yes. But you know, you have all this control. And I said yes, but it's in their favor say look at what's happening here. This is a growing thing. This is something happening, and she is the forefront. She is our number one female singer right now. And he says, well, my advice to you is I understand what you're saying. But my. Vice gyms to Gordie is do half as much as you do for the artist. And then it's been you all the time telling them what you're doing because they don't know otherwise, they will never understand. And I say, yes. Maybe you don't understand. And they don't understand only go half as far, and I want them to go all the way because I love them. And I want them to go all the way. And if I did that then I would just not be happy with myself because it wouldn't work as well. He says I'm sorry. You feel that way? So thank you. It's nice knowing you, and she left the company when Mayer wells left it was such a sad day for me to shock. But I knew that that was a negative that I could make into a just a wonderful positive because at that time, I'll dishing these three young girls. And I thought they were really really good. And this lead singer had some of the biggest in pre is is and she was the force of the group. She had so much personality that the world thought she was flirting with them. I mean, she could seduce the world. And become the number one singer. I said what grade are you in and they said all seniors. And so we'll go back and come back when you graduate. Because the last thing I wanted to do is take somebody school. And so they said, well, okay. But can we come back after school and work with everybody else? And we just love it here. And I said, okay, fine. So we did that and even Diana during the summer vacation. She asked me if I had any other job for her anywhere. She would do anything. And so I let it work in my office. She would just so enthusiastic, but she would also go and record whether people and jail, the girls will come and they were just really into into the Motown. And so sometime later I decided that we would put all efforts on the Supremes they had gone like five years without having a hit our financial people. Of course, will why are you sticking with them because they good if we believe somebody's good if they don't get hit. It's awful not. There's I knew how good they were. And everybody else knew how good they were. So we never gave up on them. And then it just so happens at the Supremes had a record that became one of the top records in the country. Very fast calls where did I love go? And we would look enough to get them on the dick Clark caravan of stars. And they started out at the bottom. And after the tour was over what love go by the Supremes with was a number one record in the country. And I wanted to take them further after some initial success berry felt that the Supremes could become even bigger is dream was for them to be the number one vocal group. In the world. Instead of pop songs. He wanted Diana to take a risk and seeing some classic American standards songs like you're nobody till somebody loves you, which he would Li would introduce them to a whole new and much broader audience. The plan was to give these sons a trial run in England before coming back to the US today. Byu them on national TV we agreed that the first song that they would do would be your nobody. Somebody loves you in order to prepare themselves to come back and do it on national TV we tried out. The nobody somebody loves you in England. And we had our first major argument when we got the Manchester she had done it once and refuse to do it the second time because the audience didn't like it. And she didn't like it either. And one thing about Diana. She was always so concerned about her audience. I said I want you to do this because I want to get you in places like. The COPA Cabana in New York. And they said, they don't want girls people like they I know they want Sammy Davis JR. There's that and so forth, but they can only do standards, you can do standards and are in being and of stuff and blues and everything I said, so you all are great. And I want to expose you to these people, and I had this whole master plan for when we get back. We would just take it and sweep the world. But you first we gotta get national TV. But I could not explain anything to her that made sense to her. She refused to do it completely. I even told her look you're doing it here for a few hundred people you're going to do it back home for millions. You gotta do it. She said, I'm not. I said, okay. So I walked out and then my life left on my stomach. I mean because if she didn't do it I knew I could not manage him again, and my life was over. I heard her singing and the show. I couldn't believe that it was happening because I was so down and have to realize that she was really doing the song. It was like the happiest day of my life. And I realized how much I really did love this woman that was it was just it. And when I told are happy, I was she said, I did it for you. Well, it was Suzanne past grabbed me one day. And she said that was a kid group. You gotta see they're auditioning in the next room, and we'd just love them, and you gonna to love them. And I said, I don't have time. I in fact, I don't like kids group on on what kids group, you know. I've got David wonder who has a major entourage here. This mother he had a tutor and chaperone and a lot of people travel with him. So I said no lasting wants to kiss group. And so. She said, but you want your them. I said I won't I won't. And so she kind of drug me into the audition room. And when I saw this kid was doing on his stuff, and it was doing a James Brown thing. And he did twirl us split. And then she said you still like kids group, and I said, no, I don't get my camera. Get my cap. So when they got through I noticed he was doing his thing on stage. He was one kind of person he was like this master of what he was doing as a clear, and then when he got through he was very, quiet almost shy. But he he stared at me the other kids getting ready for next Hong they'd be playing with estimates. And Michael was always there, and he was staring at me really an innocent way. Watching every move. I made it everything and finally went to them. And and they say that you gonna sign this. 'cause I couldn't make up my mind because I was concerned that here's a kid who was about eight years old seven eight years old singing smokey song that seemed like he had been living for thirty years. So why the way we were saying this is an old man and the kids body because he's who's loving you better than smokey and smokey did up nominal job. But this kid was like. Something you know, he'd been here before and then after singing that we went back into the child mode until Suzanne that they're going to need something that kit with saying, so I just came up with kind of a melody of my own oh, baby. That the I that I say he's just saying something like that. And then we did the love you save, and I'll be there and that made history because there's no other group. I think for percents that is at first four records go to number one. So it was like a major feat, and they became the biggest thing Suzanne was responsible for dressing them up and she put him on the little hats and Sullivan show, and he used to complain to me about his childhood, and I'd say, you don't have such a bad, childhood, Michael. I mean, you're doing what you wanna do. And if people could have that same passion at an early age eight or nine and then do it for rest of their life. My goodness. You know? So that was Michael at its height. Motown's success was almost inconceivable in the years between nineteen sixty one to nineteen seventy-one. Motown had one hundred ten top ten billboard hits. But Motown was clearly much more than hit. It gave us some of the most talented musicians the world has ever seen. It was music that brought people together and made us all dance together. It truly did change the world. And the way we reacted to each other. And it all started with one man's vision to make music that move the hearts of everybody that listen to it. And that makes berry Gordy a master. My life's work is music. I have always loved it always wanted to produce it followed my dreams. My father's advice. And also, I learned from a lot of people. I think more. Town gave the world joy. I think it brought people together. And so many ways many of them loved Motown so much still do and they had marriage to mow time using kids to mow time music, and we were just doing music that we'd loved and I believed that all people would love this music and not just black people. It was all people. It's something that I believed in that fought for because my music was at one point two white for the black people in two bucks for the white people. And it was the atmosphere at Motown that cured everything because the love the love atmosphere of love. And that's what gave it the magic that it had then that it has today. And I will always have multimedia mic is music for everyone is music for. Everyone. I'm Oprah Winfrey. And you've been listening to masterclass the podcast. You can follow masterclass on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook, if you haven't already go to apple podcasts and subscribe rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another masterclass podcast own is bringing the biggest names of two thousand nineteen to your Sunday morning. This Sunday Academy Award nominee, Bradley Cooper. He's too much. Joy, you found joy in every. Yes, super soul Sunday eleven AM ten central on own.
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At the movies with arch Enam is on. Now here we are the weekly entertainment fide cast featuring the returning hand Hornets. Your fill critic of the Washington Post. Just back from chip. Rocco film festival trip, and then the rest of us. Arch campbell. Movie guy, Mark stern. He's Nigel on the Tony Kornheiser show and we're back together. Again, we're all happy to be here. Welcome back from Toronto. And since you binged for a fortnight? Yes. Tell what is the headline from the Toronto film festival? What did we learn? The headline is there were a lot of good movies but not that many great ones. Oh, I had one transcendent day that started with if Beale street could talk, which is the new berry Jenkins movie. And then and moonlight the moonlight, the guy that did moonlight and ended with Roma from Alphonso quarrel. And those were probably the two strongest movies I saw there and they're both really poetic and Beale street is where they recorded all the RN v, but it's actually taken from James Baldwin novel, and it's about a black couple in New York. Just navigating their lives. Navigating intimacy navigating starting a family fam- their own families of origin. Policing, you know, it's it's set in the in the early seventies, but it's very resonant with a lot of things that are going on today. And like moonlight berry Jenkins tells the story and very visual way and a very emotional way. So it's not super talk. It's not super linear and seen. He really just immerses you into their experience in their lives and and the actors are gorgeous. I, it's a really sensuous experience and Roma's the same way Romo from Lonzo Koran inspired by his own upbringing in Mexico City also in the seventies. But he tells this in black and white with mostly non-professional actors playing the nannies of his of his sort of semi autobiographical family and very similar in terms of just observing life and it. Observing people reacting to their circumstances and having ups and downs, and tragedies, and triumphs, and they're both just deeply moving. I mean, they were really extrordinary role, Moses story of class or class. Yeah. I mean, it's the story of this. It was based on his real life. The woman who really took care of him when he was growing up and they're not a super wealthy family. It's like a middle class intellectual family, but they do have help. They have domestic help in their home. And so it's about the inner Twining of those spaces, you know, and how, how somebody who works for you over years does become a member of the family and the great love that exists between them. But it's also a family in crisis. The parents are going through a divorce and there's just a lot. There's a lot of politics ruling outside. So it's about a very small story and also a really big story all at once. And it's just absolutely exquisitely filmed and and just bursting with feeling they were both. It was interesting how they kind of talked to each other, you know, in terms of their style. Calls when while we're speaking of Roma, there is a sidebar that I think we need to talk about that I makes its talk to you about because Monday there was a front page story in the Washington Post this Oscar season with Roma streaming service faces a pivotal moment. And they go on to say that Roma which is clearly getting a lot of Oscar buzz distributed by Netflix, and they seem to indicate that this could be a turning point. And the way we view movies and see movies and think about me. Yeah. I mean, I, I went to the party with both Steve Stevens. I check wrote that peace and we were both at the party afterwards from after the Toronto premiere. It had just Rama had just won the Golden Lion in Venice, came to Toronto in spoke with. They have a very bright guy at net flicks. He's in charge of their film division. Scott stupor and he he comes from universal, which I think universal. If you look at their film slates over the last few years, universal has figured something out. They have those franchises like the mummy and all those sort of intellectual properties. They're trying to reboot and bring back, but they've also done. They've been very successful with one offs, you know, like like straight outta Compton. I can't bring some other titles to mind, but I think they have been very astute at identifying audiences that are niche, but that have a possibility of going wide. And I think he's bringing that same sensibility to. It's interesting to me that he's the guy at net flicks because it seems like they're, they're developing, you know, they're, they have so much money and so many people, you know, when I was in LA last Oscar season, I was interested in mudbound because mudbound was movie. And I was concerned that the animus toward net flicks because they don't necessarily feel like they need to open every movie in theaters. They'll often just go straight to streaming. Although they did open mudbound few theaters. I was afraid that that that that people's ambivalence animus about that policy would would ex- out mudbound well, it ended up getting four nominations which was really a victory. I think, you know, I mean, yes, they haven't won yet other than documentary, but I felt like that that people are. Of equally concerned about the policy, but they also want the money. They wanna be a part of this. They are funding. So many projects, I mean is so many great filmmakers that there's this kind of push me pull you tension going on that I find is really fascinating, but they will definitely bring Roma out in theaters. They haven't announced the the, the release schedule yet or the release strategy, but my sense from spa speaking with Scott and just commonsense basis. I mean, this is a movie that really wants to be seen on a big screen. But you know, the filmmakers point of view Alphonso said this to me too. When we chatted, you know, and Reese said the same thing about mudbound is they want their movies to be seen by as many people as possible and not everybody is close to big, you know, an AFI that can show a huge epic. So they're interested in getting their stories out. So it's going to be a delicate balance, but I do sense that there's a shift going on since you mentioned that this ticks off in me kicks off in me. Bradley Cooper brought a star is born to Washington for a q. and a. in a personal appearance and one of the things he insisted upon is that we watch it in an I max theater, I'll out and I think we received when we watched a star is born. We, I mean, meaning the Washington critics people in town. We probably got the best presentation will ever get of stars. If I saw it and I max in Toronto, I can't remember if it was I max or not, but it was. It was like going to a concert. Yeah, they cranked up the volume. Yeah, it's an experience. I mean, every time was at a positive thing for you. I, you know, I admire that that they insist on a state of the art presentation, and I thought it was a good presentation, not. He did a great job. I really do for his first outing as director. I know, except I don't like that. He said I wanted. I'm only direct now. I can't believe because you know, honestly, I think that was also his best performance. I do. I think that was probably his best per I little bit about him as an actor. I thought he did a great job and I admire his direction a lot. I think he's take choosing more and more interesting roles. I think he's just developing. It'd be like you really coming to your own right now is an act, go ahead and direct, but I would miss them if he's in front of the cameramen. Good. I thought he, you know, it's funny. I think maybe we spoke about this when I was in Toronto, but when I take notes and jotted down God, it sounds like he's channeling Sam, Elliott. And before. And then it turns out he was and it was for a very good reason for the character. And that's kind of that's a subtle nuance that I thought he did a really. It was smart, and he did a great job with both. Imitation imitation of the immigration. I thought it was very clever and well executed. I think he's really got a chance to win best director. He did and he was queuing aid by George Stephen, everything at the horns. Well, that never stopped me. Your point. I'm just saying he did some old school things particularly in his use of close ups. And so when George interviewed him, George didn't ask questions so much as complement him because I think George saw those old school things and really appreciated them. It has a sounds like it might have overcome your skepticism. You have been such a naysayer on this, you know, country Zinger depressed and the the, he's on the way down and I'm not a fan of that plot, but I think it's an important movie. I can't watch it. It's so good. Okay. All right. We should save it for when we have seen. So another thing allied to Toronto this week. Michael Moore came to town to the uptown theater Monday night to preview Fahrenheit, eleven nine, and it was, I think it was a fundraiser or a gathering of the groups that supported Bernie Sanders. So it was a thoroughly messy, disorganized event where we were told to get there at six thirty and the movie started at eight. Provide the refreshments resum worker. Some caviar. There was a lot of Putin around. Six thirty and eight o'clock. That's sounds shambolic that had you went to a presentation there for Barron height. I was at the world premiere. Yeah. So that happened anyway. I'm the words in the words of Forrest Gump, and that's all I have to say about this is not my, it was not, you know, honestly, and I'm going to be writing about this at some point. I was really disappointed with all the political docks, including this one. I thought it was speaking of shambolic. I mean, it's it's another Michael Moore, is it just too strident or the course? It strident and it's it's, it's it's cheap shots and cherry picking and all of it. I just, you know, it's interesting because there was also a Steve Bannon documentary of their from Earl Morris, and I went to a little dinner for Michael Moore before the screening, and he had mentioned that he had met Steve Bannon and I, you know, I said Steve, Steve Bannon wants to be you. I mean, you know, Steve Bannon when you're setting out to documentaries, I think you know, he says aero Morris was a role model. I think Michael Moore was more of a role model and the same things that I find our weaknesses and Bannon's films are the weaknesses in this one. You know, it's, it's. Selective is hyperbolic. I don't particularly agree with his premise, you know, just in terms of the content which is formally, I thought like it was all over the place. The premise is we shouldn't be complacent or the premises things are going. They're going to suspend disbands the twenty twenty election that that's where I'm thinking more about how he, you know, he, he sets it up is how did we get here, right? That's the question he sets out to answer and I'm not sure that his explanation of how we got here is one that I particularly agree with. I have liked a few things about him particularly over his career. I've always found him very entertaining, and I always find his character, right? Yes, in the film because he's playing enter important distinction. This is true, and I do like the fact that everyone of his films touches back on his hometown of Flint, Michigan and particularly this year with the. The water salt wish God Flint, which is still going on by the way, just tragic it is. I mean, do you agree that like when he, I mean, you know you can disagree or agree with Obama and his policies. But I mean, really, he literally says Obama pave the way for Trump and I think that's a little bit much. The good son. He's entertaining he. He's, he views the world through the lens of hometown, Flint, Michigan. On the other hand, he always manages to go one step too far. And of course, the worst was Charlton. Heston in the gun documentary, went Heston clearly was suffering from dementia and more. Put him on the air anyway. And in this case, he has a segment of about Donald Trump and his daughter. That is too much. It's too much. You know what I had says, heated and kinda black amount. It's not for me. I have seen a bunch of stuff bowling for Columbine. Obviously, Michael in me. But I Roger me, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's just not for me. You know, I, I missed the one on on. I knew I was not going to enjoy it. And if I go into it sort of with my combative stance, that's probably not how I need to go into. But he he brings that out and of course he does. And you know what's weird to me is Fahrenheit nine, eleven is this kind of wanted know did so. Well, it's still, I think the most commercially successful didn't move. How are these other than just preaching to acquire? That's going to be going to Michigan, I believe is still in office who caused the and. I really was for Trump exac. Well, that's his point though. That's why he wanted to know why. And that's why he's blaming Obama for being so tone deaf when the opportunity defame well, given that he has his own hobbyhorses that he won't. I mean, we can anyway, I don't want to get involved with. It was forty five minutes too long, and it started repeating itself. Yeah, I don't think working against not as best. I'm not as dumb as you, but but I don't think it's you're not saying Russia rush out and see this. I think the people who are gonna see it are gonna see, sure he's got his audience. He's got his audience and that's that, but not as best. So should we talk about the house with a clock in its walls that house. This house. J K Rowling kind of movie picking a vet James Komi testimony. When he said he was called into the Oval Office, came through the door next to the grandfather clock. Left through the door of the grandfather clock was like it was like a gym, communist. Just wanted like a little paperback book to appear. The magnifying glass, Jackson. Directed by ally Roth, who was made some of the most. We don't think of his kids move rob at all. But you know, it's got this wink, wink, nudge nudge of comedy to it, and a young orphans parents of are wiped out and his uncle sense him the two dollars to come to town and live with him in this spooky old house where. At night and Kate Blanchet is the woman next door. They reveal that they are both that she is a witch and he is a Warlock and they are fighting the good fight against a bad Warlock. And it's very cute. It's very funny. I would say there's like one little spark missing. There's one little, you know, I would like to see go one little. They don't quite catch the. You know the the JK Rowling magic, but they come close. So I thought it was very cute. It sounds like something families can go to and having and the, I'm always looking for that. You know, I love recommending stuff like that to people -absolutely in the timing of this. So this is mid September. This'll probably be out on on demand DVD right around the holidays. It sounds like this if you miss it. Now if you sit and you like it, it'd be thing. He come back and revisit with will family sitting around the the heart, the heart. I'm trying to check. I'm very good point. Marc g. rated PG because I may NC seventeen. Different. You saw blaze, which I see Blaise. I really am a fan of blaze even cost. Oh my goodness. What do you know the hawk assaults. Moster. God bless. I mean, I hope he does get nominated for first reformed that was quite a performance. Then he's in Jewish. Probably my favorite little rom- comes the year naked, which I can't talk enough about it just so bitter myself. I told you what happens? No. Well, I tell arts. I went to the, no, I went to a went to Silver Spring. I thought it was over spring and it was a gallery place. I'm there. I was like, darn it. I roll screenings screw done that before I hate it. I've done that, but no, I, I saw the trailer and I fell in love with it. You know, I love this movie and I can't wait to see four and I love him. I love and they're all adorable. So then. But here's the funny part Juliet naked about a couple of the man of whom Chris O'Dowd is obsessed with this Colt singer-songwriter who who disappeared from the scene, and he has a blog about him and he can't stop talking about him and collects his bootlegs. And so then so Ethan plays that guy plays the musician and the movie. But here ethan's making a movie about a very similar figure. This guy blaze Foley been immortalized in towns, but he was a good friend of Townes van Zandt. Listen to Williams's written this very famous song about him called drunken angel, you know? So for those of us who were in that world of that kind of music that Americana ease known to a lot of people vans in the zebra book skin telling blues, Yep, throat Pancho and lefty and musici- Austin. Wondering just the best musical, the greatest singer, Steve Earle said, he's the greatest American. Well, this is when he was still alive. Greatest American living songwriter stand on my in my cowboy boots on Bob Dylan's coffee table that any was really was. And I, I knew him a little bit. We had a very good mutual friend in New York. So when he would come to New York, we'd always go see him at the at the kettle of fish, and he was a lovely, lovely man, and he's portrayed in this movie by Charlie Sexton who's another Austin musician really gifted guitars. He goes out with Dylan a lot. He's been played with Dylan in the early two, thousands. He was kind of a child prodigy tar player. Handsome, handsome, man, and does a wonderful job as towns. And this musician named Ben Dickey who's from Arkansas now in Philadelphia. I think is making his big screen debut as blaze and it's a wonderful movie. It's it's, it's about his marriage to a woman named civil Rosen, who's played by Elliott shock hot, and it's kind of a, it's kind of a nostalgia piece about his up and come coming career and their marriage. And then finally, you know his his kind of his own of alcoholism and self destruction and tragic tragic death. And we should say that this is a feature. Exactly. Feels like a documentary. Well, no, it doesn't. It feels like a if you like a movie movie and Ethan, ethan's directed before, and he didn't speaking of documentaries. He did a wonderful documentary a few years ago called Seymour an introduction about a piano piano music teacher that is just exquisite. So he knows muse it. He has an affinity, I think, for musical stories, and it's just a wonderful movie. I really enjoyed a great job. The the hawk Assange continues and shall we discuss life itself, which I would that we saw that. Who cried. I cry. Occasionally. I want to check my my phone. Yeah. Boredom. Well. I don't want to say that. I don't wanna say that it was great. Arch was sitting all the way up in the nosebleed seats all the way in the back in the top room on the very far set your favorite place. It is my favorite's actually, yes. And favorite play we should talk about, I know because I go down in the in looking front section. Jelly, you're in the front always in the front. Yeah, I was not all the way in the front, but I was like four rose up from the front, you know? And I told archers my favorite I walked in sat down and the lights went out, right, get it. This. But in this case, because I was at the very top, it looked like I was watching television. Yes, from the guy that does this is us, yes. Yeah, yeah, I have never been able to get into this. I'm sure people are gasping full. You love it. Well, I cried too much and I had to stop watching it. I was crying every time I saw it, so I just thought I can't do this. I think he's got a nice storytelling touch, and I think he juggles a lot of plotlines adroitly. Yes, in this it is. Of emotional and is in and tries very hard to pull at your heartstrings. Yes, with some success and other, maybe just a little bit too much. I love the cast a love on Oscar, Isaac Livia wild manual. Take in Libya cook is in it audio Livia? Yes. Antonio Bandera. Oh, man. Benning Samuel Jackson, f. some throwaway roles in it. It's all about an innocent about the connective tissue in our lives and inner is a theme about this. I thought about this origin, something that did speak to me how something terrible that happens in your life can lead to the most amazingly wonderful thing and it's can I bore you guys with my theory with my personal experience with this, you know, I was kicked out of high school, read up, kick them to toss out of boarding school. It was the most shameful embarrassing moment my life. Yeah, it really it haunts me to this Denmark, but it's we're gonna. I'm gonna show you how, sorry, they'll be south show you. And my best friend who was my roommate at boarding school because I get kicked out and I didn't go to jail or Harvard. I ended up going to Denison which is still doing school full screen. I would not have gone to the same college as my best friend from high school ended up room together all through college. So it roommates for like two or three years in boarding school all through college. Then I convinced him to move to Washington DC and we moved with live newsgroup house with me and him and four women. Now we, the one rule we had was that nobody can date each anybody in the house because we don't want it to blow up. So we live. We all live together for about three or four years. One of the women that live there and my best friend in Robertson Robertson mortgage. They fell in love the day. We moved out, they announced that they were dating horrible. They have three of the most beautiful children in the world cry at his fortieth birthday party surprise. Part of the invited another friend of ours climber. Okay. And he and they introduced her to their great friend Martha, they fell in love. They got married. They had a beautiful. Child. I can honestly draw this line of, I don't kick get kicked out none of those things happen. So I can say, movie movie, fix you up another one of their friends. But it's like if. So I look at San Francisco. No, no, no, no, no. But I look at this and I'm like, you know what? I do subscribe to this philosophy in life, but the thing about life itself is the bad things or so bad that I found it very difficult to get past those little manipulative. Yes, so bad and the payoff at the end. And I could see where they were coming little manipulate yet. It just the payoff didn't out balance likes the buffalo things in there is a, they touch on three generations. I admire. I think if you're going to talk about family talking about three generations is very important that moved me. It moved me as well. The way the film is constructed. It's a little bit of a non deterrent Tino and they've actually referenced him throughout the move. These beginning of the movie is done in chapters and there's a lot of like fresh bath, flashbacks and stuff from different perspectives and alternate stuff. And so I. I was very impressed with the way the movie was constructed and that idea that he's building on like you just talked about. Yeah, is from life. Yeah. I have a letter from my great grandmother describing her life, and they moved to Texas from Kentucky Fried act of the civil war. And when they got to the Red River, you know, she talks about the wagon thing and everything. Her mother would not get on the steamboat because she was afraid of it and they were supposed to settle in Galveston. And if they had, they would've all been killed the arm of nineteen hundred storm that happened in one thousand nine hundred ad. So I wouldn't be here. That kind of movie, isn't it? Yes. So it's it has been those kids wouldn't be there. They had a Grand Canyon. Reminding reminding me of that is that I can think of the title. I do love that when somebody says to adopt the kid, right? Yeah, she does. Right. And so I guess my take away from this and here's the thing I woke up and it was still on my mom. You guys are talking about it, but I don't listen. Go see audience, walked out kind of mix, and that's how I am. I mostly women in the audience. I'll probably watch it again just because I want to dive into some of the stuff they did. But again, the painful moments were almost to pain devastatingly devastating. You have to be older to get what he's talking about. Maybe maybe I am old, but you know, I think arch, but I think. Third of older older people. I think in my experience I have lots of friends in their eighties. They don't wanna see, you know, like they've lived through this stuff. Do not wanna pay good money and go and and feel sad. Like that's a delicate balance right there music or no, it's a wonderful life is certainly touches and musically there's a Bob Dylan threat that we've throughout the whole thing, which I probably should have played that song for us today. I'll just tipping my hand. It's not. It's not the soundtrack song of the day, but I did kind of like that and listen, I am a huge fan of Oscar Isaac and live your wild and their chemistry would you? Should you like their chemistry together? Yeah, I like her a lot. She's really good and he's having a one. He's he's been in a couple of dead movies lately, but I still love watching. I do dangers personality. Yeah, gotta have, yeah, Lewin, Dave. So let's see at the movies of we don't like Fahrenheit, eleven nine except icon. Of forgive it. We do like house with a clock in its walls. We recommend blaze, oh, and the children act. I didn't get it plug in for the children. I'd put a plug in for that. Emma. Thomson Stanley Tucci. Oh. British judge smart. Oh yes. It's an adaptation of the McEwan novel where those people MO Thompson instead of going. Yes. Young man. Stanley Tucci who I think is super talented. His name's gonna come up later in the show for me. For for those Brito files like me out there. Go see it. It's really fun. So mixed on the house, and there's a character named Nigel who's really funny. Mixed on life itself and positive on blaze and the children's act. And again, Hornets gets all the good ones. We get the crumbs from her table now it's an accident. I just couldn't make those screenings because for reasons into later, there are movies that I just I just decided I. Well, there's some though. It's like, okay, I don't want to, but you know what? Okay, I didn't wanna see mama. Mia to there, you don't wanna see crazy, rich, Asians, and people look at me with their jaws on the ground and tell them what are your favorite movies this year? And I list those two at the top of this. They're like, really? I'm like, I can't tell you walked out of their short narrowly happy and loves movies where you can follow in today's reviews at Washington Post dot com. I post reviews at arch Campbell dot net. Send us your thoughts to our Email address, which is at the movies, twenty two g mail. And we come to you from chatter the bar and restaurant, and Wisconsin and Jennifer in northwest Washington DC, where we are proud to chatter at chatter to great place to eat. It is please come by any by two dinners at once. Speaking of Jeter I've heard you chattering about your meeting with Jane fund bad. That's why I couldn't go to those screenings this week. I had a good excuse. Jane Fonda will rightly might get out of bonds school free now another up and comer. I think really hasn't. I think you've got it got what it takes. I'm gonna just say it right now we talking about, I'm going to get ahead of myself. You were talking about the show that she does with only rice and Frankie. My new mom loves that show. I was binging it. I should have been watching it all along because I've, I've interviewed lily Tomlin over the years and adore her, and I've been meaning to watch it. And then when I was new that I would be interviewing Jane Fonda, I thought this is it. I gotta watch it. And now it's so charming. It's just wonderful. It's so funny and smart documentary on her. And there's a documentary of the reason I was talking. There's an HBO documentary call, Jane Fonda in five, and it is. Is so wonderful. It's a woman named Susan lacy, who did the Steven Spielberg documentary or if you had a chance to catch up with that. She's so good at these are Tissot biographies, but with Fonda, it's really not an artistic. What she's done is it is in five acts and the first four all men. So the first chapters about her relationship with her father, and then it's the three husbands, Roger Vadym, and Tom Hayden and Ted Turner, and I thought God that's so weird because you know, but it's really a way to explore her becoming herself in the fifth chapters Jane. And it's really the story of how she came into her own as a woman and then as an artist. But mostly just as a human being, and it's a fascinating film and really emotional. You were talking about the importance of three generations. A lot of it is her process of looking back, not just at her own parents, but their parents and kind of what formed, what. Informed her childhood and her formative years, and then how that played out with her relationships with men, but also with Roan children. So there's deep emotional work going on in this movie as well as just hitting the high hitting the usual points of acting and activism and the things we know her for. But she's so revealing her family background, her childhood. It was tough, very, very, very, very tough, and she's incredibly candid about that and for and also very humane. I think about that in terms of just sort of understanding her parents, they did the best they could. They were flawed and it did have reverberations that were unfortunate. But you know, I think I can already hear half of our listeners calling her Hanoi Jane and I and I know that that's it'll harder for the rest of her days. She has apologized early and often for that. It's probably her biggest regret. She's apologized. I think quite elegantly for it, really and tick has taken full accountability responsibility for it. And I think that's another kind of. She's really shown at a time when accountability seems to be sure more important than ever. You know, she has fessed up to her own with steaks and owned them, and forged ahead and kind of built a whole new last act of her life. I find her to be really inspiring. When you say five acts though, I'm also thinking of her film career started up exactly new. Then she was a sex symbol, and then she morphed into this brilliant actress. That's right. The other few years ago I watched the shoot horses don't, and that was pivotal and they talk about this in that film. They don't really talk about are acting. And when I when I met, I met her in New York yesterday and I asked her, I said, you know, the one thing that this film doesn't really get into your craft, the dangerous. How did you become the dangerous personality? And she said, you know, it's easy for me to talk about everything except acting and she admitted that it's never been number one for her. She's taken long breaks when she married Ted Turner. She didn't think she'd ever. Act again, she didn't care. She didn't miss it and it was the same same when she was an activist with Hayden. She was interested in being an actor. You know, she was whatever acting she did exactly was to support the activism habit. And she said to this day, activism to find her more than acting. But on the other hand, she says she takes it more seriously than ever. And it really does come out with things like Gracie and Frankie. I think she's delivering great performances in that show. I mean, they're comedic, but they're coming from really grounded place of very very, it's not just light and fluffy. It's coming from a really deep place and she does this drop the documentary drops on Sunday and story about her. My little column with her is gonna come out tomorrow in the post. So it was a Emmys and cable and streaming. And I guess we should go onto the Emmys. I didn't see that either. So like I wanna hear I wanna just sit back and listen. I did not see the show because I was sitting in the uptown theater. Okay. Waiting for Michael show up. The only thing is Sandra didn't win, and I'm a little bit. Myth have not heard one good thing about that. Broadcast. Just tell you, I was, I forget what I was watching. I was watching something forgotten that it was on my cell phone star. Blowing up with one Tony Kornheiser and he was like, are you kidding me? This is the most atrocious show I've ever seen. He's like the guys were hosting and I forget their names. It's Colin Jost and I forget Michael Chang. They do. That sound live and I've seen them on life full at that. Okay. I don't watch. I disagree. I don't think they're great at that. That's just my opinion. But a lot of people are with you. I might be in shape Saturday Night Live, and that's the only part of that I watch. I'm not I, I'm not a huge fan of theirs, and this was not the platform for them. It was too dry and it was it was too timid and it just what I saw of it. The most entertaining thing were the accepts in speeches, Jeff Daniels headed terrific acceptance, speech, we thank his horse and everybody's. He said, no kids when you're out there and you get off the part and they say, can you ride a horse? Don't lie. 'cause they're going to put you on horses going to be the Kentucky Derby, this great speech about that. And it started off with Henry Winkler. He had a great Bill hater on. Yes, it was a great day for vary, which was terrific. Yeah, here's the awards game of thrones your your thing. One, outstanding drama. Although I would like to have seen the Americans, I would rather see in the Americans. Most people think Americans was going to Matthew. Reese one, which of these show the marvelous MRs Mazel Brian's lead actress in a drama. We wanted carry Russell yet, but it's clarify, I want for that. Sandra would have either one I was appointed, Jody calmer. Didn't get nominated. That's a scandal that it is. Oh, she's yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Mashing rise for the Americans. You mentioned him and Bill hater for berry and went Harry Winkler for berry and the assassination of Jeanene versus actually, which is one of bunch didn't. It. Girl. Maureen. That's right. Yes, very excited for standing limited series. I'm trying to find that on demand. I miss. I should have. I want to catch up with so weird because thinks that in the end, all the stuff is brilliant. But I was like, I lived through this like Chevy really watching dramatization of this. It was something that Ryan Murphy sprinkles his magic does. I know makes it like a something completely new nuances. You've never picked up on before. That was a bizarre story as ankle Cunanan. And yeah, it was just a weird. I remember that. So I'm hoping to catch up with so show itself was underwhelming bring the terrible EMMY show. What does this mean for the Oscars? Oh, 'cause last year at, you know, and the guy, the guy who won he won the producing EMMY for the Oscars and then propose right? It's almost like you know what you're doing to the show right now. The red with your proposal, which was aggressive, right? The us cours Oscars last year was also tear. I thought it was terrible too. Show, and then there's this hard to get these things. Right. And it's a sense to like to live. But it's also a television show, and those are very at. That's why I don't watch the Kennedy Center honors. It's got to be one of the other. It's like you're either creating an experience that's fun for the people in the room, or you're creating show. Television different things. I still have a problem and I love movies and a love actors directors and everything, but it's still like we're like the most fabulously wealthy people in the world, how great our way. And we Pat ourselves on the back. And I'm like, you know, there's a lot of people out there. They're doing really hard great work and there's no recognition and their way of acknowledging that is to do those patronizing skits with like normal people throw them and it's unseen. There's too many awards. And that's the other thing. That's just too many, you know. So what does this mean for the Oscars? They keep it shorter. I know they're on. They're on the hot seat. I mean, that's why they did this whole stupid thing with the popular if they wanna cut time out, then cut those skits. Skits also cut the songs. Your presentation because those all take up an entire segment and they do all that's five. I think that they do throughout it. It's always beautiful, but it's like, you know what? That some fact that we could trim from my and I'll say also they are. There's always a couple of montages that could their way way too much Chuck workman montage as much as anybody, but Chuck God bless seriously. He's great and companies. Great. But you know, shows we remember that Bob Hope helmed and Carson helm. They did a monologue and then we did the show because that was what it was, which is in wards. It's in a club basically, like a country club, it's like a private club? Yes, doing their own little ritual and we're eavesdropping on it. And now it was stage, but now it's been reversed in the cart before the horse. And now you know. Exactly. It's and it I would. You know, that's why people ask me g go the Oscars. I can't think of anything worse. I would hate to be in that room, I will or through all that stuff or it would just be torture. The only time you'll go is when my first movie is both you guys would be my guest. Good. All right, good. We go to the parties after. Absolutely, absolutely. Speaking of parties. I know you wanna talk about your visit to. Chance. And I've been gone so much. I haven't had a chance of the highlights of my summer this year. Ago and far away? No, I was always heard about it. I've loved me. This has been, I swear to God. It's been a bucket list item for me. The Chautauqua institution in upstate New York on beautiful lake Chautauqua this very storied place of learning of spiritual values and and sort of self improvement and learning and sharing ideas and recreation and being in nature. They have a summer program where they kind of dedicate a week to a subject. So it could be this year was Russia one week, and the week that I went up was for documentaries, they dedicated entire week documentaries. Ken burns came and spoke on the Monday, and then his writers and producers stayed on Tuesday and did some more lectures and talks. And then I got to deliver kind of the hump day speech on Wednesday. About kind of documentaries and about how I kind of took my book as a jumping off point about how do we watch them and and then did a couple of q and as with filmmakers the the next two days in this place, I sorta got it is a magical, beautiful exquisite place. I was greeted very warmly by Jeff and gave fallen, be Jeff soc- eel. They are loyal listeners. I'm sure they're listening right now. As a matter of fact, why have an Email from gay you? Do Mark just listed as podcast. My husband and I sent the box of that. All of you really the boxes Zingermann 's that's our favorite deli Arbor. But the box is just the box and we open it up and there's all kinds of wonderful things in there. And they sent a very lovely note land. So so gay, Jeff, thank you so love listening and thank you for doing. It was wonderful. It was really neat, we should. We should go up there. The movement goes back to the nineteenth century believe so I should know that typically, yes tonight, yes, and they're Chautauqua movement. It was national. There were Chautauqua events all over the country, but this is really the the load, the motherload and the the mothership, if you will, and it's just this quaint, beautiful cottages, beautiful built environments, gorgeous lake woods. It's kind of I don't even it's like summer camp for secular, you know, secular humanists or something, but but not secular because there's a strong spiritual element executable, but it's just gorgeous. It was. It was really wonderful and I want to thank everybody for welcoming me. So warmly it was there were some little extras in the crowd. Oh, wow. Ooh. Did you speak with? Who did you q. a. i. q. Nate with Rebecca Kameda who did of wonderful. She did one of my favorite short documentaries call the God is the bigger Elvis about Dorothy Malone becoming a nun. Oh, that was an HBO. But then she did. I'm trying. I'm blanking on the name of the movies. It was up there. It was not nuclear homefront atomic homefront about radioactive waste in Missouri, the community's efforts to try to clean it up. It's absolutely stunning. She's a great filmmaker. And then grace Lee who did a wonderful documentary called American revolutionary, the grace Lee Boggs story about an activist in Detroit. And so we had to wonderful QNA sessions talking about their work and how they approach it, and they got to in everybody got to see their movies, alley McGraw. Was there, oh much was there because she had done a voice over of a movie about Mabel dodge Luhan. And so she came along with that film and we had a lot of fun and she talked about, I mean, gorgeous gorgeous. So we had a good time. It was really special. Speaking of that. We should mention our friend, Chuck Todd's documentary indeed is coming up in a couple of weeks, right? Second week in October. There's some good stuff there and the double exposure festival's coming to. There's a lot of action. Speaking of exposures Mark, what is our? What's our song of the day? I told arches I tell them every week you're gonna get this one. Right? And then I've flounder, let's take a couple of seconds, but I think you'll get it. Okay. Any guesses. Oh, come on. You gotta get it now. Right? Not for the people screaming at home? Yes, this is the same song WPRO p. in Cincinnati. Oh. Oh. I couldn't place it. I'm playing this because on September eighteenth nineteen seventy eight, which hard for me to believe forty years ago this week WKNO p television show made its debut. Wow, and there was a movie that came out right around the same time called FM which a lot of people thought FM was the precursor to w p, but they're actually as a lot of times thing happens, they were being produced at the same time and it's funny in the movie they the sales guy says the DJ's or we're going to sell army spots. You got the army is going to be an advertiser and the DJ's all say, we're not doing that man and they barricade the studio, and then the owner is out there and he sees the passion, the DJ so fires, the sales manager, and he says, don't worry, we won't have to run those commercials. Let me tell you folks something. I've worked in radio for an awfully time sales runs everything right. If they sell ads and you won't run it, you'll get fired rust me every single time. But the show, again is a guy that worked in radio. And I came to it late. I started in the late nineties, and but I knew a lot of people that worked in the seventies and eighties and this nail that from the sales manager, the news guide the the morning, Johnny doctor, Johnny fever, you know, all that stuff and Venus, Flytrap. They nailed the personalities for this sob- really and it's, it's, it's it's, you know, you can't really. I don't know, I, it wouldn't really translate today, but it's, you know, you go back. It's a slice of time that you go back and look at. So make me very sad because so much radio is automated and radio is not even remotely the same that used to be it all started when they said now big companies can own up like fifty million and so you lost the individuality from all these great radio stations cross the country. So that came in right after that happened. Everyone's like, well, you miss the big party Mark. It was really fun couple years ago, but it but you know, working radio, especially back then. I think it would have been great fun. Yeah. So it's just, you know, that was that was what we had today. Wow, signed an awful song by the way, probably tell you who did this because I'm supposed to provide critical commentary like MAC Davis or some. No, it's a Safra aqua or is it hold on music musical themes composed by Tom wells lyrics by series creator, Hugh wells Wilson performed by Steve Carlisle. It is the Pitta me in my mind of dreadful softball in the seventies. So there you go. So so what kind of Email are we get? Oh, we got a bunch emails here. Hold on. Where is all right. So this is from Joe Cecchi in I always get to pronounce this correctly. Is it done yet in or doing it in New Zealand? Waits me. We're just going to say from New Zealand, Joe, I apologize with done done some in high as they say there are new plots are, there are no new plots in Hollywood. Boy meets girl. Boy loses girl, boy gets girl back. I think you miss another. A star is born. Look alike. The great limelight with Charlie Chaplin player. Oh, of course. Showman helps young new incomes to a sad inning. You also talked about the couple. I read the Jack Lemmon bought the rights to the film because on us with art Carney, and they argued so much off stage. He didn't want any possibility. The Cardi would be on the film. I don't know if that's what I want to believe. It's true. Last week when you were gone, Jason freely was here and we started going through all the question was how many remakes of stars born? Have there been right? Of course we went to the one this year the one in seventy six fifty four thirty one thirty, seven, seven and then a nineteen thirty one. What price Hollywood. I said we may. Let's throw in the artist and Jason will hell. Let's throw in funny girl and throwing Thailand. And what did he throw in? It was time line. Well yeah, good, you know. So that's part of my original response to seen the trailer for the new story. And I'll say this all the time remix. Why are they doing it and when they do it right, you're like glad they did that. Well, and Cuper kind of references that in the movie when he says there's only twelve notes and it's how you play him. Right? I mean, that's same. Y'all. It's not. It's not the song, it's the singer or something like that. There's a scene where she's walking up a ramp early in the movie and she starts singing. But what she singing is the verse that leads into somewhere over the rainbow that that was my tribute as you tomorrow. God bless and you know, there's some. There's some little echoes share that. I admire. I think I think it's important that important move this from James MacGregor in Mandeville, Louisiana. Jan who call you Jimmy, even if nobody calls you Jimmy, Jimmy McGregor hearing you discuss both. Burt Reynolds and Christopher Reeve in last week show reminded me of a great under the radar movie from nineteen eighty eight called switching channels. In this cable news producer, star reporter and ex wife. Kathleen Turner isn't games Reeve who appears to be the model fiance until his debilitating, hilarious. Fear of heights comes into the picture all-stars. Incredible Henry Gibson as a convict do for electric chair, yada, yada. It's a really fun movie and you're probably saying, ooh, yeah, right about now is the memories flood anyway, love the show all the recommendations you guys provide every single week. Thank you. I appreciate I remember that movie, although I remember not thinking that it really reflected television news as I knew it, then that's the, but what's the one with with with Matthau and Jack Lemmon. Yourselves for cable news? No, no. It's a news because this is also the third time it's done. Oh, and limited. Oh yes. And I thought when you see Lemmon and Matthau you're like, I'm sorry. This is the one for me because it's just brilliant. The one with Kathleen Turner, Burt Reynolds. It's good. It's good, but it's it was kind of it was sort of the front page? Yes, I think that's, I think. Yeah, I think they've done that three times. Now Carol Burnett also in front page and his girl Friday front p. That's the one that most people I watched the original a few years ago because I have nothing to do sit on the couch and see what's on, and it's a little hard to watch nineteen thirty one at off Montjeu and. The guy who was in. O'Brien, what's his name? I don't know. Brian's Edmond O'Brien was when of your O'Brien, the never mind this. Not now I'm not gonna Pat O'Brien, Padova. Somebody said that Mark said, ROY in then. But it was Pat O'Brien O'Brien and add off Montjeu a little tough to watch though a little hard to watch nineteen thirty one. Think Friday's the dodgers. One, that's the tax, and that's what we got. Please folks. You got something to say you wanna ask a question comment when let us know about a movie, you think as ever please citizen Email Archana the mill earlier, but it's at the movies, twenty two at g mail dot com. Last year, I went up to Broadway to see the front page with Nathan lane, and, oh my God, it was that sounds like heaven. The cast just full of wonderful cameos John Goodman. Oh. I love the movies and everything, but there's nothing. Nothing. Nothing better than good live theater experience. I mean, there's just it's just magical when when it's magical goosebumps. What what should we recommend for this weekend? I've got one. I've got one. China's. This is from not that long ago. Believe it was Emma stone's coming out movie easier. I love these this making around again arming. Yeah, it's just very, it's very funny and I wanna pay and I love him stone and she's brilliant in this, but I wanna pay a special attention to Stanley Tucci and Patricia Clarkson who play her parents. They are so unbelievably great in this and the scene where they're going to watch a movie and Stanley Tucci sitting there with the two movies like is at the bucket list, or is it Rambo wanted to not Graham bucket list of this? What is what is the most important? It's going to be the bucket list hunting. After we watch this, we're gonna cross off the bucket list from our bucket, so damn good in a love Stanley Tucci, Kelly. Just great. So good one mar. Thank you. Love. I'm going to bring up Glenn Close in the wife just so that you won't forget that it is out there. Oh, yeah. You guys like this, right, wonderful piece of acting and and it will be wonderful to see her nominated for an Oscar for the wife. Green. Just remember that it's out there. I think just continuing the hawk Assange I'm gonna just do. I'll do a twofer. I'm gonna say, if you can get if Juliet naked is still maleable to see still around really do. Go is just good good time and then go see Blaise good and bask in the greatness of youth and hawk, oh, I need to recommend another movie. It might be a theater near you. I don't think it's here in DC, might be on demand where you are, but little Italy is out, and that's during my friend, Adam Ferrara. All right. So, yeah, it's it's like a modern takeoff on Romeo and Juliet. It opening here. I looked for. Ford. I didn't see around here, but I saw him tweet out that it's opening around the country in various places. So if you see it go see it supports a good guy, and it's funny, it's funny. Cool. So how should we. All right. I'll I, you know what you guys go. I I'm still working. You're giving me. Give me nothing. This thought I'd repeated. Don't worry. We won't have to run those commercial. Problem for this podcast currently. I will quote arch Campbell, not speaking of exposure. I forgot. I didn't write anything down. So I've come cropper yet again, I'm sorry that you. Back, I missed. I'm gonna go sincere on guy. I really missed you. So there.
At The Movies with Arch and Ann
Aired 7 months ago 81:15
56: Eric Berry is funding open source with CodeFund
Bang for change long is provided by fastly, learn more at facet com. We move fast and fix things here, change love because of roll bar, check them out at robot calm, and we're hosted on owed. Servers had Delano dot com. Slash change log. This episode of boundaries talk is brought by berry victory is a Harry marketplace that connects top tech talent with growing companies. And all candidates are fully vetted before appearing on the platform. Very, is also making Monday morning something to celebrate with a fresh batch of fully vetted candidates every Monday. If your startup or anyone looking to expand your teams, veterans matching algorithm will connect you with highly qualified tech sales and finance candidates. And they've also released a comprehensive tech salvia report for twenty eight team with insights are actual employee hiring for top technology positions in your city, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Washington DC us this report learn exactly how much software engineers getting paid. You could make the right offers when Bill your team and this report is available to you. A listener founder stock absolutely free had to veteran dot com slash founders talked to learn more and download report. Once again, that's very v. E r y dot com. Slash founders. Talk. Talk to covy Costa this podcast and editor in chief of change dot com. On this show, founders, CEO's and makers about their journey, their lessons learned and the behind the scenes of their company to Eric berry the code fund previously known as co-sponsor, which Eric started year ago in an effort to help sustain of source, albeit shut it down potential legal issues get hub, but was given new life. When he joined the team of consensus in get coin, we talked to the Baxter of his ideal arrogance of passion about funding open-source at the advertising being unapologetically focused on your mission, the value, honesty, openness, and the future direction of coat. We're talking about the funding open source that is the topic today show talk with Eric berry founder of code fund previously long, sir, Eric, how are you? Good. How you doing? It's a good day. I've actually been waiting believe this, but I've been waiting for this call. I've been wanting to have this conversation with you for a long time. Kleiber finally having, why is that? So I put this show on haggis about five years ago and I love the kind of conversations. I'm hoping we're about the half which is kind of like this leering of an onion revealing. So the details behind lessons learned and building a business, which is not easy, and I'm a fan of yours fan you're doing as as you probably know. And you know, I resume this show probably a few months ago after a five-year haggis and my passion is really digging into these kinds of stories. And so when I when I was bringing the show back and I made my list, your name is on it so go, I appreciate that. No, you guys have been a pretty big influence for me. So you know, mutual respect there for sure. Thank you. I took a drink my coffee because I need my any my juice to to make it through its two o'clock now. But that's when I take my second Cup of coffee. I don't know about you. I got my t right next to me and he go. So code sponsor was reasonable name. It's now code fund. We've got sort of a long journey to strap pass, but just a quick highlights, I'll cover them and you can fill in the blanks from I understand a year ago last month to eighth was when you begin your journey years, probably maybe that's the date of inception of code. I'm not sure what what the exact birthday really means and since then, you know you've had some issues with get hub. You've learned lots of lessons, eve change your business model. You've been acquired from what I understand from a consensus. What I wanna do for like tell that quick version the story to give some context listeners and the rewind back to the beginning to say, where did this begin for you? So help me fill in the kind of the t. l. DR over arching. We'll go. We'll go back in the past a bit. Yeah. I think the start off with maybe a little bit about me as a in who I am. I may. I'm a software developer. I've been doing development since the late nineties. I started off in started off in PHP and what the job and then and then ruby is where I was introduced to the whole open source world and his back in two thousand and eight since then I've pretty much clamped down on ruby for very long time, and anybody who's listening knows that the ruby communities pretty remarkable owner comes to when it comes to open source and and helping build tools for each other. And so I grew up. Professionally in this atmosphere where we're all giving each other. I had my heroes back then Remmy sharp. Of course. There's Tom Dale and and and you cats and and d. h. h of course, and a lot of people who are doing massive contributions to the community, and it was so fascinating to watch every single time that happened. It was just another tool in my tool belt, right? And and so I became very calm. Maybe comfortable is probably the right word. I became comfortable with with utilizing open source for my for my personal career growth. And I've been doing so for for very long time. And so back in July of last year I was working for a company. I wasn't too thrilled working there and I wanted to be able to start something on the side. And when I did that, I, I asked myself, what can I possibly provide? That's not out there. And and I, we had some ideas that might work might not work, but I thought about what what am I passionate about? And I'm passionate about open source and I have a background in marketing, so so the the whole idea kind of came out of it was I remember that I remember the day I was driving to work and it just hit me. I think I can marry the two and help open source continue to grow through through marketing and advertising, and once that idea clicked it, everything stems from that kind of fell right into place. My mind. It's interesting to two for one, of course, Romy sharp, huge influence remind DJ definitely, Tom del you. Huda cats significant contributions across all four of those people into the Java script and the Rubio systems, right? I remember reading Remy sharps blog way back in the day. I'm just thinking like, how does this person poor much in, you know, and then DJ's contribution to the real world with rails and Tom Donahue, two cats with ember. We've documented some of that. The only person you mentioned on that list that hasn't been on any of our podcast is Romy sharpish affects that. Yeah, definitely been Greg. I don't know how that happened, but I go your. I echo your list for sure. What's interesting is how you how you said, I, I know what a help have a heart for helping. I love this. I have experience in this in a one being open source, the other being marketing. How can I marry the two. And I think many people actually maybe take that perspective. They just dive into something the seems like you're a little bit more methodical by your by your process. Can you speak to that well, so speak to that. I wanna talk about kind of how developers view funding and open source for the most part. What I've seen across the board is developers, think funding comes from sponsorships and buttons to and stickers. Right. Exactly. So you see all these developers who are putting these pay buttons on their websites on their get Hubbard me's and hoping that they'll generate funding, and I'm sure we'll get into open collective, which is basically the super powered version of that, which works really well for certain cases, but, but most of the time, the way what I was saying was this money that was that everybody's fighting for everybody wants to get more money in the table, but it's all coming from this. This donation slash charity fund, which is always limited that funding is limited, and it's going to be the first. If it's coming from company, it's the first thing to go and anything gets tight. And typically developers are hoping that other developers will donate and in I've donated to some projects before, but again, then I turn around and have my own projects and then who donates to me. So the question is, why are we approaching this problem from a charity funding source point of view when we could say, okay, well, why don't we tap into marketing budgets and say, and then all of a sudden that the the pockets, the depth of the pockets becomes infinite as long as those those marketers can actually see a return on their end, they'll keep on dishing out money. And so that's that was what that was. The reason why I decided that advertising was the way to go now. Now, of course, back then. I took a very naive approach. I'm like, well, you know where a few few things that that come to mind when I started. This is one I know that people don't like to change. I don't like to change developers. Don't like the change of change is tough and to be something that's adopted and I've had experience in the past, but for something I shall be adopted, it has to be where the amount of change is is is less than the amount of reward that comes from that change or the pain or the pain, right. The pain has to be greater than than the the change would that would be required to resolve it. So I knew that the best way to do this in my view in my now, you view was while let's stick ads on get hub. It's got a lot of us visibility. It's the first place. People tend to go to a say. This opens was project. Homepage, which is typically get page or the read me, which is the second probably the, you know, equal first second visible piece of an source project. Yeah. So I took this idea and I pitched it to a friend of mine, ten or Lindsey, and he is the person behind a react table and several other barely popular projects, and I asked him, I told him this idea of like, hey, what if I made a way for you to place an unobtrusive add on your get hub, your hub, read me, and then you'd get paid on a per click basis. And the unobtrusive part was so key. I'm a developer in the last thing I want to see a bunch of bagel banner ads on get hub. So the way it was designed was it was text only it looked different enough to not be deceiving, but similar enough to not be distracting, right? Which is a balance. It was a hard balance, but the people that I've talked to who sought most of the people that I point the ad out to have to. Say, I have to point it out. Now when you read it, it's very clearly an ad. Well, what we what, what we considered it, what I consider the time was more sponsorship. So. Sponsor, headse- name, cut sponsor. So I took a step back and I reached out and I said, I wonder if I can find an advertiser that's interested in in getting in front of the audience that that Tanner is generating. So Tanner has a pretty big audience of Java scrip- developers. I reached out to a couple of people just coke flat out cold called and said, hey, this is what I'm doing. Would you be interested and several several people said, yeah, let's give it a shot. And so that started in July and July think I paid out twenty dollars or something like that in in. To the developers, I think paid at the Tanner and one other guy, and then month after month at kept on increasing. So. In July had I think, only like five by repos that it was working with the application integrated directly with get hubs so that when you sign in a list, all of your public repositories then you can just select which ones you want to do and it'll generate a code for you to place. The way it worked was wasn't a coat. It was. It was a dynamic SVGA image. So that's that's how we got around no scripting on get hub is that that image when that request came in, the image would look at the request. It would know exactly what property that's for. It would find the proper advertiser for that property and then render on the fly. The ads script or the ad in SPG format, super inventive by the way. I mean, that's like you kind of gloss over quickly, but getting past the no scriptural inside of a get breed me or just remained general. I mean, that's that's pretty smart. Dude. I saw Jerry, I, I thought we were both taking the back and I was like, that's really inventive. Wow. I have far in between. I have some moments of the brilliant, great. Everything else is kind of like a. Yeah. So it worked really, really well. Now, there were some Gotcha to it. One is get hub uses an, I can't remember the name of it anymore because I haven't looked at it in so long, but they use a basically an anonymous her layer on their requests so that the headers that come in on any image request or actually they're all coming from get hubs server locations, and they don't pass any information as like if it's mobile, if it's anything. So that's that led to the decision to go cost per click over cost per thousand impressions or PM. Because if we went PM which would have been. More fair for the for the publishers for the for the developers, but because because we couldn't actually prevent fraud in that way, we, we decided and I say we allowed at the time, it was me, but eventually became a, we. I decided to to just do CPC cost per click. And it was a pretty flat rate. I would charge advertisers about a dollar a click which is well under what they're used to paying. And I would pay out anywhere between forty to fifty percent of at the time to the to the developer, the amount that you're having them pay is kind of shallow death at that point. Like it wasn't. I don't wanna mention competitors, just not. It's not the point. Just mentioning that you weren't the point. I'm trying to make that you weren't trying to be greedy. No, you were trying to find a way with the easiest way to enter this market that enables you to get some traction on both sides. Both the advertiser silent developer side. And the easiest way is to make accessible. Yeah. And when I started it, I didn't really have a an entrepreneur mindset in mind. I've been a part of businesses before I've owned a business before, but only as the developer and the business I've never actually had to deal with the financial side or anything like that. And as I was going throughout the months doing this, I was doing on the side in my own time, and I started realizing I really wanna do this full-time and I'm going to need to do this fulltime. It was putting a lot of a lot of pain on my family. I was getting up at four in the morning every day to work on it and working on late. So as putting in probably seventy hour weeks, you know, forty at work and thirty just on this and it got to the point where my my wife said, look, you have to choose either code sponsor or our family because this can't continue. And so part of the reason for the stress was that we weren't making enough money. And so initially we started off at a fifty percent share just a flat split between the developer and code sponsor, but I ended up pushing it back to forty percent so that code sponsored bringing sixty. And what I found is that we just weren't making enough money to become sustainable and it's interest. It's it's a hard thing to explain to people one when you're taking away something they had before, but to China, explain like this has to be a sustainable company in order for this whole thing to continue if I can't do this or if I can't keep this going, then everybody's being shut off. Nobody makes any money at all. And so that was a pretty rough time seeing that realization. That was right around October. I believe when we really star. To get some traction. What do you when you say traction? What do you? What do you consider traction at time? Can you kind of late to give us a bird's view of what trash then? I think that there was a there was a cycle of of interest that came in into a cut sponsor. So what happens? I would people look at that location and be a little wary, like is this for real? Are we really going to get paid? How does this work? And then I would pay people and then they would tweet about it. And once I tweet about, hey, I just made one hundred dollars with code sponsor. People got interested and there was that validation and now it happened month over months are always knew like within the first week, I would see a huge increase in new users because people who got paid, we're talking about. And I think about three months in, yeah, probably around September, September, October. We saw some really, really fantastic growth where and I'll just tell you in July I pay twenty dollars in August. I paid three hundred dollars to developers in September. I pay twenty five hundred, so so that was actually in September is when we saw serious growth. Then in October in October, I paid out thirty four hundred developers. So it was. It was pretty exciting. We're really excited. Unfortunately, the, you know, the Honeyman of all that kind of came to a close while I was at get hub universe. Yeah, this is. This is kind of an interesting next segment into this story which which was like, you know, obviously the last thing that. Get hub and potentially, as you even said yourself, developers would want is as in read me in making this 'cause not everybody has your your viewpoint of like making them not stand out in blend in, but not quite blend in the what we talked about earlier. None of has that viewpoint. So the position that that get took on this was like, you could be an enemy to their state in the fact that you're injecting unintended things. Dynamic ads essentially into one of their pretty read me's and you you, you became, you know, there's a conflict there, essentially. Can you breakdown maybe what happened and how that played out. So we had some really large properties really large repos using code sponsor at the time. One of the largest was singer sources. Awesome list. Right? And that I believe was the number one largest property on. On on get hub. It was generating at ton of traffic and. I went back and forth with singer, and we we tried to make the ad look good and fit right and not be obtrusive, but also still be affective. And what ended up happening is let me take a step back. I also wanted to show the world that. I had get hub support even though at the time I really didn't. And this is me being naive and scared. I was scared. I was scared a talk to get hub directly and say, hey, are you okay with me doing this? And I didn't, and I looked at their at their terms and at the time their terms weren't as clear as they as they became after after everything went down. So there was a little bit of a loophole and I thought, okay, I'm gonna comfortably, sit in this loophole, and I decided what better way to show the world that get hub supports, code sponsor, then to sponsor get hub universe. So I reached out to them. I said, hey, I'm interested in sponsoring gida universe. Would you be okay with that? They said, absolutely. I sent him a six thousand dollars and a logo, and that was it. And now we were on their website for frigate hubby in verse twenty seventeen fantastic. It was a huge boast for for people's trust in the system to make sure that they will continue to be supporting get paid. And so I took Tanner, who was, as I mentioned before, the first the first user and he helped he helped kind of brainstorm. A lot of a lot about cut sponsor wasn't the time I took him to to get hub universe with me. Having a great time. Getting to know people. I met Nadia Akbal. They're a fantastic person got to meet a whole bunch of people. It was a great opportunity to to try and connect with new advertisers on new sponsors for the for the platform. And then I, I remember getting an Email from singer, I think on day two. And in that Email, he said, hey, I just wanted you to be aware, get his asked me to pull the plug on code sponsor and read this, read the silver in the silver, and I thought, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? So immediately I went over to like the get hub support area. They had a support area, and I said, hey, this is who I am. I'm with code sponsor. Can I talk to somebody about this? And I got some crazy looks like, oh, you're the crazy person that's trying to tear down the ship or whatever it might. You know it was like a bad feeling that I got out that area. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, about Deepal. And so I was like. They, they didn't wanna talk to me. It came down. Look, we can't talk to you. You have to go through this channel. So Danner and I sat down, we drafted a big long Email explaining what we are, the reasoning that they wanted the pulled this because they claim that we were in ad platform. And even though we weren't technically platform, we showed a lot of signs of being an ad platform. We were trying to be a sponsor a away for sponsors to be able to fund projects. Now you gotta understand, open collective does let me let me talk about open collective for a moment because it is important here. First off, let me say I am a tremendous fan of open collective. I think that what they've done and are continuing to do and we'll do in the future is unbelievable for those who don't know what a collective is. It is a it is a non, I believe it's a not for profit organization that allows. Developer teams to generate funding for their projects where open collectible, receive the money, do the taxes, and then they will pay out based on a public requests. So if part of the team says, I want to spend money for stickers or I want to spend money for t shirts, I want to spend money to go to this conference or whatever. It might be that that's what that funding is for now as great as that is almost everybody that I've spoken to that participated with code sponsor the time did not want to do that. They didn't like the public nature of it. They didn't like not being able to spend money on what they wanted to spend money on. It's not fit. I can understand. It's not a fit for everybody. It's definitely a fit for some, but not for everybody. So open collective really focuses well on on on the aspect of enabling sponsorship directly code fund our code sponsor at the. Time was more of a way for advertisers to get money to those developers that don't wanna participate in open collective. So. When I received that, we drafted an Email and we sent it along explaining why we're not an ad platform and explaining steps that will take to move on. And we thought that was it. We thought, okay, I think it's handled. We'll wait. And then we waited and waited, and we waited and eventually I got eventually, I got response, and that led to a chain of more responses. Talk is brought to you by robot catch airs before users resolve. Here's a minutes of confidence. Roll bar is loved by developers, trust by enterprises. And most of all these robot here change law, you can roll bar tried today at no cost to, you know, credit cards required our listeners get access to the bootstrap plan with one hundred thousand vents for free for ninety days to get started, hit a robot com slash change. Eric, you're, you're waiting, you're waiting and you're getting a response from get up and. Here. You know, you get an understand the mentality that they had here. It was really frustrating for me because I tried to explain in these emails, look, this is the good that we're doing this. Why redoing it? I'm not doing this to be rich. I'm not doing this to make a big name for myself. I really just want to help developers get funding for open source. That's that should be part of our lives as open source developers, right? You're talking to somebody who should care about what you were cared about to. Right. Exactly right. Exactly. Now. In hindsight, I I understand where they're coming from, and and I'll get to that. So they got back to me and they said, look, we don't see any engagement directly between developers and advertisers developers and sponsors. That's why we don't. That's why you're not allowed on here. Okay. I can work with us, so I went, I got back in the code, change the system around to make sure that not only were advertisers being pre-selected by developers. So in the system originally, when you log in as a developer, you actually choose which advertisers you want to participate in funding your project. So what I did was I changed it so that the sponsors also had approve or disprove disapprove, which which. Developers they wanted to fund, so is very much a two way street. So I thought, okay, this is this. Is it. I announced that things are great. I, I. And then after that, I wrote back to to get out by said, this is what we did. Thank you for letting me know we're good now. No, we're not. No, we're not good. They write back. They said, no, no, you're not good this. This actually is really bad. Your ads are are still your your images. Still ads. What we, we only we don't want support that type of thing. So in in a last ditch effort, and this is this is a November in the last jeffer- I wrote back said, okay, look, you're not giving me any clear answers and they wouldn't. They said, and they clearly stated. It's not our job to tell you how to make this work as just our job to enforce the rules there enough. So I wrote back and I said, okay, tell you what I'm gonna change us up completely to essentially be exactly like open collective, but only service those projects that open that people don't qualify for open collective because open collector required a minimum of hundred stars at least two developers on the project, and it required a certain amount of. Well, I think I can't really speak for them, but at the time I talked to Pia multiple times. I spoke to her multiple times on the development of this. I even asked her late, are you okay if I mimic your style on get home? And she said, no problem. So I told that to, I wrote back. An Email to get her pleading with them saying, hey, this is our effort is why we're doing it, and here's what I can do, and you're already allowing it. So I'm just asking for permission to do the exact same thing that you're allowing them to do. I got an Email back from instead of their support. I got an Email back from their legal department and they said, we summarize, they basically said, look, we, it's our platform. We reserve the right to allow or disallow anything that we choose on our platform. We disallow you if you're not off of our platform by by December eighth, then we will be forced to take legal matters. That's not the kind of Email you want nose, not the kind of the pockets for sure, yeah. And here I am doing this on the side, losing money. I put in thirty thousand dollars of my own money into this trying to make it work. And even though I was taking a cut, it was nowhere near what it actually costs to do, including the sponsorship and the marketing materials and trying to build it up. So it was really, really hard. So in in November, I sent out an Email to everyone. I published an article called why funding open source is hard. I in that article, I detailed the growth and success of code fund or cut sponsor, and I explained why it's shutting down. And I basically said in in that in that blog post that I'm I'm stepping out I'm shutting down completely. Yeah. Now. It was so hard for me. So hard in family had a big part of it. I wasn't up for the fight, you know, you know, you can get kicked so many times and if you know the kick is coming, it's not as hard. But once you're after so many kicks and your family's saying, like, look, this is not going to work for us either. Then you you really start to rethink things. Yeah, we got to prioritize the important things in businesses. Great. All that good stuff, but family comes first a second, xactly understand your perspective there. So you ended this article this post very, very detailed post on hacker noon on medium. I don't even what the the impressions the readership was this particular post, but I know they got a pretty, you got one hundred thousand almost two thousand class, which is. What a big deal on medium and you ended up by saying I'm done, but yeah, but you weren't. But I wasn't now, so I wasn't because. It didn't make sense to completely shut it off. I did shut down the platform. I stopped tracking, but I still had developers who trusted me and relied on me to help them get funding. And I had a good friend Mike Smith who I believe, you know, over it roll bar who's now get prime. And Mike, I asked my said, are you willing to stick with me? And what I can do is you keep providing funding for all of these top performing sites, and he looks at him as top performing. I look at him as like, knitting. The most funding I said, will you continue to provide funding for them? And I will just take a fifteen percent cut, and that will essentially make it so that we can still do the tracking. We're still running through a tracker, but I didn't eat any of the money. The money was literally just to help the server room. Right? He said he said, absolutely. So he had no issue. That. So I paid out in December. I paid all the remaining money to all of the people that I money to, which came to almost five thousand dollars. And then I had an extra thousand dollars of nickel and dime all of the other publishers that are all of the other developers that didn't make enough money to to receive that payout. So I, I made a lump sum donation of thousand dollars to the h. one organization for fighting human trafficking and other blog post listing every single developer that participated as donor in that donation because it wasn't my money. It was. It was I didn't consider it my money. I didn't want it. So I so December I talked to a buddy of mine in pretty Freddie Shelton and I asked my said, hey, are you interested in code sponsor? Got all these contracts that up. I got Mike here. Would you like to take it over? Sure, absolutely. So he did and he, he, he kept it going for a month all the way through early January. And in that time I was kind of going to this point in my life where I hate my job, I, I need to find purpose. I've found true purpose in funding open source, but I need to be able to go somewhere that that I can do that and get paid for it. And that's what I did. I over the over the course of three months. I've been talking to Kevin walkie who is the CEO and founder of a get coin. And get coin is a product that helps developers get paid to contribute to open source funding through bounties. We became friends over the months and he offered me a job to come work at it coin, which I accepted. Once I got to get coin, I thought, no, I wonder if I can just pick up where left off and bring code fun back in or coat sponsor back in. So I reached out to Freddie. I said, how's it going. I said, would you be willing to sell me back the company? And he did. I gave him some money for the company, and then I brought it in as just my contribution to get coin at just here's me, here's what I can bring to the table. I don't want any money for it. They paid a few of the expenses that I had for the for the product, but but all in all it was like coat code, sponsor, joins get coin as sister companies, but they're basically one company now because we're all getting our paycheck from the same same company and all that stuff. But my role at that point became make this work, help people through ethical advertising. Resilience is somehow you made it through what Seth Godin describes. It's still probably a dip for you, but there's a portion of a dip there, right? Like the hard part is, is. All the hurdles that come up along the way to to having the ability to do it a long term. I'm not sure what get quince funding is another part of consensus. I'm sure they got a lot of resources to to level you out and whatnot. But I mean, you got new license now you got licensed to to keep trying, which which to entrepreneurs like? Yes. Give me more time at the same time. You're not damaging your relationship with your family. Yup. Which has got to be the most important thing of all that, right? Oh, by far? Yeah, absolutely. By far get coin, get coin enabled, and I, I'm forever indebted to Kevin for this get coin enabled the rebirth you could say of of of Cote sponsor, and it was I, I have to mention. Part of part of, I think part of the reason why. I served through all these kicks to the groin is there's a guy I meet every every Tuesday has name is Mark, you and and we, he, he's an entrepreneur Hughes, just really busy, busy guy. And he told me as we're going, he kept saying, like, look for the next punch look for, look for the next kick. It's coming. It's coming. That's what this is all about. So I was kind of coached to to to be prepared to be kicked and to be prepared to have these failures and not and not collapse under them. So it was almost like, oh, okay. Well, I know the next one's coming. It's probably gonna be within a month. Okay. These are the likely this is likely what it's going to be. And then I kind of mentally prepare for. It allows me to get on further that that was a huge, huge help, but then things got a little bit easier in in January. I started started with consensus in January, like you said. Immediately went out to this insane retreat for the whole company. They flew the whole company somewhere, and we had this week long retreat and I realized like, I'm not in Kansas anymore. Diff- things are different. Now there's difference when when you're in a place that actually has money. So what that bought me was the ability to focus on the developer focus on the problem which is funding open source and trying to help build that solution. So the pivot that I decided to do and say, okay, we're no longer even going to bother trying with get get hub and. In hindsight, knowing that they were in the process of being purchased by Microsoft and they didn't want to through any type of crazy craziness into that deal or any any type of wild card. They didn't want a wild card to be visible in that sell. This is my view. It totally makes sense now that I know that they were selling Microsoft, why they didn't want anything to do with me. Yeah, an-and I accept that. I accept that completely. I also accept the fact that they couldn't tell me at the time and so you know, look, I'm good with it. Now I still love get hub. All my codes on get hub. All the code is open source for for code fund. That's all on get hub and but it allowed me to focus more on on the developers. That's what I did. So by month, we continue to grow and we're still continuing to grow. We are on websites right now such as j has been with Remmy sharp material. You why nuxie j. s were on ruby lower were on probably fifteen pretty highly popular websites right now. And the what's really cool about this is not only do I get a send them checks every month, and now I'm paying up the seventy percent, seventy percent of whatever revenue comes in goes to them up to. So not only is that amazing, but. Partially it's the reason the reason why they chose us over the other guy. I'm kind of curious here you now saying this is say the term websites, so pretty high traffic websites. Jay spins one of them a couple of just mentioned there. Where is the developer in this? What is the relationship with code fund now kinda stumbled a couple of times and co-sponsor code fund. That's because you've had these identity changes over time, so, but where's the developer currently in the code fund system? How do you help the developer now right now, what I do is I look for websites that are humidity servicing whether it be an application that developers use for free, whether it be blogs or articles or newsletters that service the community. But any developer who was putting their time towards. Making life better for other developers. I looked to help, and so I reached out Remmy. I reached out to Olivia over at a material. I reached out to Michael Levitt over at regular. I reached out all these people because these are websites that I'm familiar with. I know they're working hard to service the community. So I asked them, I said, hey, would you like to participate? And a lotta times they say, no, but every now and then they say, yeah, site bring the men. They create an account. They can see near real time what their what their money is coming in and and we pay them every month. I just try and keep them happy because Chris thinking of the open source who's who's thinking of the maintainers. Right? Everybody's thinking about the code and what can the co do for me and what all that stuff. But who's thinking of the maintain her? And I think of an example. It's a sad example. The story of Jack Luchik Lucas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we've had two times. Yeah, so he creates this. This insanely incredible bootstrap competitor called semantic UI. He's the only guy maintaining it and this thing explodes forty thousand stars on get up, right? We is it to use it as our as the UI component system for our back end to just make an adamant so much easier to deal with. 'cause. Oh yeah, who wants to design and like build their own Adleman. It's sort of pointless which you want to focus on the design for the customer facing sides of things. Not so much your sides could experience. But mean Jack made it easy for us to do that with Mickey Medicare. Right? Exactly. Late last year in December, I actually have a quota. You don't mind me sharing? Sure. Please. He said on December twenty. First of last year, he said after having spent about three years of my life trying to make open source work with part-time proprietary work or just plain being broke. I don't think I know of any other way that seems reasonable without compromising the software. Unfortunately, it means I have to push back into element until I can find the means of financing to sustain it. It's it's it's a frustrating thing and I saw the anger in in the issues I was I I've I've been following semantic you I for a long time and I know that he was overwhelmed at one time. I actually calculated to myself. Okay. Well, he has let me see at the time when last year he had about five hundred eighty issues. So I thought, okay. Well, what if it takes thirty minutes per issue to solve and what if he charges seventy five dollars per issue and calculated, it was something like forty thousand dollars like it. Get him out of the hole, and I think that's wrong. But just off of my memory as a lot of money to like the he's giving up now this is not money that he can make. This is money that he's not going to make that he's going to give up because he has to spend that time doing that versus other work that might make money. Right. So again, I wanna keep people's eyes on the maintain her, and that's what code code fund is no code. I should probably explain code fund. How has it changed as it changed in its makeup since co-sponsor because I mean for me, I'm playing kits to so explain to me. So when when when coach sponsor became part of get coin, the thing that always bothered me once we moved away from get hub is that we're not really doing sponsorships anymore. And in fact, I think the name sponsor could be deceiving when used on an ad platform which we embraced and became in January. So I decided, well, let's rename it. Let's make it fit more of the get coin brands. So we renamed its code fund. Our website is now code fund dot IO, and we rebranded the logo a little bit to to look more like coins. But anyway, I believe that our our goal is more about funding code versus sponsoring coat. So you say that. Not many people maintain her, and you got this example of Jack Jack leads who is doing great work on to make you I and it's a shame to be that deep into a project and be a single maintain have really no financial way out as he had said without changing the model of the way that you deliver this source project, and there's many people out there who decide to do like side kick. For example, psychics. I pro- my parents denigrate job with that. There's different ways you can go about things and not as you said earlier the same with with Pia that you there's not one way to do everything, not everybody who wants to do up source wants to make a community version a pro version. Right? And so you are is trying to find a way to match people who can receive value from exposing their brand audience and those who don't want to change their business model or their inquiry. Model of producing their open source work. You wanna find some sort of like, you know, 'harmonious way to connect both. Right. Is that where you're at right now? One hundred percent. In fact, I, I gave a talk at a conference the ruby hack conference back in April. And in that talk, I actually defined how how developers rules need to change in order to to really increase funding in open source. Now, any developer that comes in the first thing, the easiest, the easiest thing to do would be to add a button to their repo and say, hey, donate money if you're using this very easy, but the likelihood of any return on that as next to nil kency Dods, which he's a fantastic, fantastic person. We both know creative cross end and many, many, many wonderful libraries. He had those buttons on his on every one of his projects per year, and he didn't receive. One donation, not one, so I- visualize in this talk, I visualized a graph that's essentially an exponential curve. And on the bottom part of the graph is is amount of money. I'm sorry, the bottom part of graph is the amount of money that you can receive potential earnings and on the left part of graph going up is the amount of change that a developer's required to perform in order to make that happen. And you mentioned the entrepreneur, which there's a lot of money to be made in that onto preneurs side of open source. If that's the way you wanna go. It's been proven with side kick in. It's been proven with many other libraries, but at the end of the day, he got to be unicorn to pull that off. You really have to know how to market yourself, how to advertise, how to build a company, how to create a business model. It's going to turn a profit and how to maintain like both sides of the free and for cost of this. Project and on top of that, your project has to be popular enough to justify that type of thing. Kind of middle ground that I've found is. Is support. Now, a good example that I, that I show as trailblazer trailblazer is a, it's like a framework that sits on top of rails that changes things around and makes it a little bit more want to save her boasts. I go to travel as if you want to find out what they do, but go to their website. And I see three things that there's a premium support. There is a book. They sell a book and they are sending out stickers. They're doing a lot of marketing and support for that, and they're, I'm sure they're getting pretty decent money doing that. They're not seeing Mike para money, but they're still seeing money. But again, it comes back to what is a developer wanna do? Do you want to be a support person? Do you want right books? You wanna start a business with this ordeal, just want to continue building, open sourced. And unfortunately, I don't see a lot of ways aside from licensing software or advertising that will let you continue acting as you have always before and still make a decent amount of money back. Yeah, anytime like so this example of going back to Jack's manicure, he just wants to be able to to produce and maintain the open source, not add one more layer which is support or whatever else might take to develop some sort of revenue stream like ee. Don't wanna take the current load plus something right to support it, like he just wants to be able to deliver the great project and sustain it in such a hard nut to crack. It really is. I mean. Mentioned, clicked of, they have their ways so many you I may fit. There may not patron is trying to get into this game as well. You got, you know, you got get coin, which is funding issues, right? Whole different kind of model, but there's all sorts of different ways. You can sort of like wrap this up and there's no easy road. Yeah, everyone has their pros and cons, and some of you have to find out which one fits you? Nutty Egbahl has a really good, really good. Read me get hub called the lemonade stand. I refer to it often and there. If you are interested in funding open source, that's a great place to start. You'll see all the pros and cons of all these different ways of doing it. I think the biggest thing that developers I would like developers to know is that it's okay to get paid for open source. It's you're not. It's not something that you have to give away and it means a less if you get paid, it is okay to get paid. The question is what avenues data go to get paid and what options are there out there. So I strongly urge anybody who's interested in this not only the check out code fund, but also to go around and like, look at the different ways that you can do it. There's so many different ways to generate funding for your open source. It just what fits your personality. The best. So I have some pretty awesome news share. We are now partner with goalie if you've never searched hacker news piece spring, medium, twitch, or even product hunt than you experience the results of Galil search API and expend or content. We knew that one day would have to either roller on search, Lucien of post press. We can partner with I'll. Yeah, and I'm happy to report the phase one of our search is now Powerball. Goalie able to fine-tune are indexing gain insights from search patterns in analytics. We can create custom career roles to influence ranking behavior as well as improve our search experienced by adding synonyms and alternative corrections queries. Sure. We build search ourselves, but that would mean we would be busy doing that instead of shipping shows like listen to right now. Thanks for friends at goalie for working with us ten shots for linked to get started for free or learn more by heading to ugly dot com. The the funding model for open source, Eric is is a moving target, right? Like since day one, which is just a portion of the journey of trying to sustainable source like your day. One was a year ago, at least with this project to try to find some sort of sustainable way to help develop. There's find a consistent revenue stream that can help them just do one thing which is produced and support and sustain their current project, not at other layers to fund revenue malls. That's a moving target. Would you say? Absolutely. It's it's unfortunate about the scenario with ghetto, but as you've mentioned, Tilly. Understandable. I look at some of the past and some of the directions you've taken an undisclosed curious. There's some laid out in this latest post from you, which is, you know, greatly put whatever earned over the past year funding open source and you kind of outline various things. You've done lessons, learned, mistakes. What our core lessons learned for you in this process that is either not post there or not yet that you can share a think mentioning the ones on the post I, I wrote this when I was very much deepen. Reminiscing about the past year. Don't even realize it's been a year and all of a sudden somebody on Facebook or somebody on Lincoln's at, hey, congrats on one year. Oh my gosh. It's been a year. So to touch on these, I think the most important to me. So when I started the business off and over the over the past over the past year, I think one of the things that I'm most proud of is is the honesty. The honesty that I've been able to approach now, digital advertising is kind of messy, dirty, yucky thing. It can be and advertisers that I've talked to over the past where I basically open up my data. And I say, here you could see exactly what we're doing. This is my overall click through rate here are all of my publishers and I'm working with, here's how much money we've made his company this month. And this is how much money were giving back to developers and and all this stuff I've been so so open and honest with them. And I think that's that's paid off a lot. Don't do it to pay it off, but. I don't. I'm not. I'm not a good poker player. I and I'm a developer. So things you know, lodge logic. Logically, in my mind, if I'm open and honest with them, then they will appreciate it and work with me or they will say, okay, thank you for being open and honest, you've given me enough information to know that this won't work for me, but I think if you in the future, never is anybody said, oh, they're so open and honest. I'm going to take advantage of this and and see if I can. You know I- whatever it might be and that's, that's something that I've just been really proud of. I continue to be proud of. In in in all openness on staff posted what our earnings was for last month July. We had two point four million impressions, average clicks rate, a point, three, three percent. We had seventy two hundred dollars come in the door and forty. Four hundred dollars went right back out to developers so we we may twenty one hundred dollars in profit. Again, we're far far far from being able to support myself and the developer. The works for me works with me, but we're in the right direction and we're making a difference. So far in a whole code fund has generated over thirty six thousand dollars for open source. We I have literally been able to pay out thirty six thousand dollars over the last year to developers all over the world. And that is just such such an amazing feeling for me and the best part is like I know I'm just the very beginning. It's going to grow. When it's going to grow and it's gonna grow heart of, I think part of the reason why I was able to to be able to pivot and not topple is because of the mission. I look at some companies, missions and their mission is to make revenue, or I want everybody to use this brand of soap or whatever. And that stuff to to me is not very important, but having a mission that actually has true meaning such as how can we help fund open source? How can we help get money to people in as long as that is that is the the raw that I hold onto that is the goal posts that I'm aiming at. It's really easy to make decisions. And every decision that I've had to make like, well, how's this gonna? Help open source, but is okay, great. If not definitely not going to do it. What's good to have that as checker to your final litmus test is, you know, like you say in this post and we have a similar one. Like does it enrich the lives of developers like that's our mission as we decide to sponsors or produce new shows or go to conferences or just in any way change or or redesign house in the works. We ask ourselves that question which is doesn't enrich the lives of developers. And your question is similar, but does it help fund open source and if it doesn't don't do it. Yeah. And I might have to to append to that too because I should say, does it ethically help fund up source? I like that because you know, I'm sure that you had people come to you and say, hey, Adam, I, I love your podcast. I'd love to sponsor it. Will you sponsor it? And they're no XYZ. See company that has nothing to do with advertisers at all. We've had two. We've had to say no to some some people, for sure people who will come to us and say, well, we'll sponsor your show if we can get somebody on the show or something like that, and it was like, that's just not how we operate right as we don't do that. We don't pay to play all of the, you know, all of the continent. Our shows is native content like we sought it out or were truly interested in the story is not because somebody pays us to be on here. Our sponsors are different. That's the point and we do a great job of sharing their message and understanding their brand story in caring how we should help them communicate their message developers audience. That's part of what we do. That's our value add, but those are paid content is not. And on that note, I gotta say, I don't. I don't know who the sponsors are for this Pacific podcast, but one of them roll bar. Thank you. I personally think each and every one of those sponsors for this podcast being recorded right now. I appreciate it. You guys are the reason this can happen. Thank you. So so back to ethics. The last thing that I pointed out and that really has kind of been a part of who I've been in what code code fund has been since day. One cut sponsor is ethical. And what I mean by that is we saw a big fan of Eric culture. Yeah, and he he's, of course, the genius behind read the dogs. He and I had a conversation with him early early early on back in July. I had this idea. I wanted to run it by him. He was kind enough to talk to me about it. He he gave me some great advice, but at the end of the day, I was able to take what he created, which is ethical advertising, apply it to to advertise across the board. And so that includes no tracking, no cookies. We don't do any remarketing and we don't sell data. We don't do profiling and all of our ads are are on topic. All of our ads are relevant to the audience and we don't. All of our ads are unobtrusive. They're not in your face very subtle there, but they're. Beautiful and not, you know, they're, they're good. They should be something that you that's not distracting when you're when you're doing a site. And then finally in February, I decided that if we're really going to, if we really are gonna be who we say we are, we got to open source and actually got a credit to you and to Jared. You guys. I didn't realize we've talked off and on over the past year, but I didn't realize early on that you had that all of your software is open source, and I thought, wow, that's, that's awesome. Yeah. So I, I took your advice, I followed your lead and I open sourced at all. Now. I- Jared, and I went back and forth little bit because I might have open source it and copied some verbiage that Jared wrote. He said, don't do that. But. I've since corrected, but no, nothing but respect for you guys. And I think it led me to make a really good choice by open sourcing are our stuff. But the best part is that you know the whole blockchain thing talks about trust less where you don't need people advertising so dirty. But when you say our whole advertising platform is open source and these are claims and you can go verify, it becomes a lot easier to trust or not in required trust on that. Yeah, let's it's easy you know to to get out of the box because there's certain stigmas that are that are squashed out the box by saying, you know, we fall these patterns or quotas up and sores. These are guidelines, whatever they might be in. Oh, you credit us on the open sourcing part. We just put the baton up and hope people follow us and we're falling others to like we're just leading leaders phone the followers because I think it's the way to go. We dreamt of being able to when we we. The built the CMS that now powers change dot com. Our dream was to be able to make sure it was open source because we felt like, gosh, we've been covering open sources, two thousand nine like open source moves fast. We're just trying to keep up and help everybody to. And we could not in any way, go beyond tumbler were press, which was our first few platforms and build our own and not make it up and source because it wasn't about feeling competitors that it was about. Kim, we start a conversation in came. We establish trust came, we invite a community in. There's so many benefits that we see because of it. And if we kept it close source where we be, what would that would that be like at silly? So. So, yeah, so ethical advertising is certainly an interesting perspective. It's been the DNA of you since the beginning. Right? Something else you said they're just kind of glossed over a little bit. Was you've been unapologetically focused on the mission? Yeah. And you kind of go into to some some details there. Specifically, you know with that Michigan minded means that if the game changes you're willing to change with it, like you mentioned earlier being the pivot, not topple if you say here in in in bowl, the mission, not the product is our lighthouse, and that means that if for some reason the way you generate funding source developers in the future changes from an advertising platform to something else you're willing to follow. Is that right? Yeah, not only willing to follow it. I think I'd be willing to follow it gleefully. Nobody likes ads. I don't like cats us. Developers were the ones writing adblocker. So I get that. It's not the ideal solution, and I know there are bunch of different solutions. But right now that to me is the most effective way to bring funding to open source where everybody's happy for the most part, if that changes and something comes out, that will will make a better impact more of them. Yeah, we'll we'll be on top of that. I'm a big fan of the brave browser and the basic attention token, I think that's wonderful. I'm a big fan of the the deco network which is fighting to make it possible for for developers to easily license their software. I'm a huge fan of tied lift who is focusing really hard on providing an ongoing salary towards maintainers and building up a maintainers pool. So there's a whole bunch of efforts going on. That's all solving the. Same problem. We're on the same team. We might be doing different tactics tactics to to make it happen, but we're all on the same team and that's really comforting to know that. I think what's interesting too, is that because the overarching theme of this is obviously diving deep into your story, but it's, you know, how do we fund open source in fun? What? What are the ways you can? And and I think what I've learned to this conversation is that there's just not way right. And there's there's many, many ways as you mentioned that you and your relationship and your friendship with Pia is not predicated on your the, the competitive conflict that your businesses your for profit or your, you know your missions with your businesses have like because of that there isn't a change in your relationship in like you still can be friendly. You can still have respect for one other and there's many many ways to solve the problem of funding open source. Yeah. I guess what was a little unclear to me and maybe still. Clear is cow code fund sits inside of get coin or consensus. Does it operate? Because you've said you in a developer in we a couple times, and I'm trying to track how that applies and pay us. Is it a Thomas? Is a by itself? Is a party get coin? It's is it a sub product? You know how, how? What is the state of code fund right now as it pertains to get coin or even consensus at large. So legally could fund does not exist as an entity as a legal entity. Anymore code fund is literally a product one of many products by get coin worship going through a little bit of a branding crisis without right now, we're trying to figure out what that means. So your confusion, actually my confusion as well knife. Okay. We talked to Kevin right on the chains lug as well. You know, when we first heard to get clean, we thought was actually a coin in a little while to travel the say, okay, so this is about, you know, funding issues through crypto currencies because consensus is essentially very bullish on the crypto currency markets, you know, specifically theorem, right, right. So code fund is this weird. This weird thing that just showed up in this consensus mesh that has absolutely nothing to do with blockchain. And I've, I've often asked myself, why am I here? What are we doing here? Because it doesn't make any sense as far as promoting blockchain or making that building that economy or ecosystem. However, as as time goes on, finding that code fun actually fits in really well with it because it's a built-in tool for promoting and advertising internal other other spokes, what they call within within consensus, but also it it. It will open up opportunities for developers who don't know anything about blockchain of element to start getting involved. And so some of our ads were running right now are introducing people very, very slightly into like, hey, are you interested in blockchain development? Are you interested in learning this. Come here, they're, they're wanting help. They're they're wanting to get people involved. So there is some mixed there, but yet it it is a little bit of a weird thing where hopefully going to have an answer for that question later this year. Right now. To really like TLD are at code fund is literally just a product of get coin and get coin, has a bounty product, and that's what get Quinn is known for as their bounties product. And code fund is the is the ad slash revenue arm of get coin as always curious about how to play out because I can see how they interconnect, and I was very happy for you when I heard about this announcement. But at the same time I was like, so is it by itself? Is it is sub product? Like how does it fit in? And I wasn't really sure, but I'm a huge finicky coin as well. Like I think the the interesting way you fund issues through bounties, especially bounties funded by cryptocurrencies is really an interesting process because I mean, this is sky's the limit, you know, but you know, you've got this whole web three. You've got these hurdles and, and I've heard Kevin say we're in for the long haul. You know, this is not, you know, next year or the year after. Her trying to solve this problem. So the long tails what you are focusing on? I think it does make sense. You know, in the short term could fund. Oddly fits, but in a long tail it very tightly fits if I have my vision on correctly for what you're doing, I think you're right. I think you're exactly right. Close. What I like asking this one. I didn't prepare you for it. So if if for some reason you don't got the fort. No worries. I got a backup, but you know what's something that super-secret for you. Forget coin for code fund for consensus with something that super-secret that not many or no one knows about that. You can tease or share your on the show today. Not imagine it. One of the things that we did. I think integrations is going to be a huge part of the future of code fund. And the reason I say that is because developers don't want to this far as I've seen developers, I wanted to go and like go over here and set this up copy over here. Injector script here in all this stuff just to be able to get paid. The direction that I would like to take code fund is more of a an API driven platform that other applications can integrate into an provide ethical advertising for their users. So for example, later this year we will be doing a full native integration with code sandbox that I owe. Uh-huh. What that means is on cut sandbox, you'll be able to click on your preferences. Click on integrations, click on code fund, and then it'll set you up an account automatically. And then you can optionally add an ethical add to your shares, whether it be on your website or your embeds, and then you as the developer, we'll get paid for those. We have another integration coming and November, and so this is being put together by our good friends over at nuts. J s. Sebastian, and Alex Chilton to genius brothers created Knox, and they are back when I started announcing that there were issues with get hub. I think in December Sebastian, and his brother decided, I think that we can help, Eric. I think we can help coat sponsor by creating away for a by creating away for for actual repos to get funding. So right now, that's the biggest problem. I can't fund repos directly because unless that repo has a website, it can't happen. So in the next few months, they're launching a tool that will integrate directly with get get hub, and it should allow near should allow. For us to be able to help a lot more people very quickly. Integrations is an interesting perspective Khotan box. Our code sandboxes actually. If that works out, you've got to prove model to easily go to the code pens or anywhere else where people are sharing their code and you're giving the individuals who are actually sharing examples of moving the needle of change in or how things are done. Right? You know this really interesting potentially in glitch or other commodities sites that essentially say, here's my stuff, and if it gets enough eyeballs you give that person ability to to integrate ethical advertising. I think Bry you really gotta go back to Eric ocher and buy some dinner or take him out on vacation at someone or something because that's the that's the with that is the underlying DNA. It's going to be very difficult to to question you. You know what I mean? Yeah. Motives. Yeah. And yeah. And since they like I'm a developer, I I, I make good enough money, you know, quote, unquote, good noth- money. I'm, I'm a, I'm a privileged white male living in a rich town and. Utah. I I, that I'm privileged. I'm not doing this for the money. I just want to make a difference and help people, and I want to remove the eye out of the whole thing and eventually make this to be something that belongs to the community. It because I think that's really the adoption. The adoption of code fund or any solution that that's gonna come about has to be adopted. The only way I think a will be adopted is if it is completely open, an ethical and and and maintain that way. Where it's been fun going through your story. There's definitely there's parts I knew parts. I didn't know part. I was really curious about in in a I'm just left with one a ton of respect and excitement for your future. The work you're doing with bitcoin and consensus and particularly upping open source developers, find ways to sustainably get funding for their work that doesn't require them to do tons of change or change at all, really to how they're doing day to day work. And that's, that's just an amazing mission. So any any final thoughts or closing advice you shared before we close out? Manley my appreciation for the community. Once I started entering this world of of funding open source and helping find solutions. I've, I've found so many amazing people and so many so many. So many amazing efforts towards towards this goal. I guess one thing I should share and I'm not sure when this will be released, but in October, we are going to be at the sustain summit in October. And that is a one day event that where a bunch of people will be there to discuss how to help continue sustaining open source, and if you can make it, I hope you make it if you can't. I hope you follow up. They're currently looking for sponsorship right now as well. So there's a sponsor page there. And if you're there, I look forward to seeing you also I will be at get hub universe. We are sponsoring again. Back in the door. They let let me back in the door of nice under the name Git coin, so get coin as sponsor. And yet we will be there and code fund will be very well represented represented, come get your t-shirts, swag, and. If you if you want to hear any more details come talk. It certainly leads into the focused on the mission like you, you'll keep knocking to do. I like that. That's right. Resiliency as best you mentioned sustained sustain, assess dot org. Love Pia in everybody else involved in that conference. We won't be able to not sure we're gonna be able to make it there this year being in Linda's little harder for us, but we, we don't have plans yet, but we had an idea that we haven't begin excuse on for us to send one person. So you might even see us there but now. So that's where we met last year where we met. That's right. But Eric, thank you so much your mission. I appreciate it. Stay in touch. We love you here. We can't can't think enough for this mission and it was so much fun to on the show. Thank you. Thank you. Hyper shit. All right. 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