20 Episode results for "Melissa Allison"

Borders Between Us

The Nod

38:06 min | 1 year ago

Borders Between Us

"Hey Al is Britney and Eric and we have got a pretty massive show update for you guys today. Yeah so as you may have already heard us. Just say the nowadays coming to the small screen when we launched as a daily show with the new streaming network qube in April. It's called the nod with Britney Eric that means soon you'll be able to see Britain. Me In living color every single day. Well Monday through Friday. Yeah each day. We'll continue telling the story is about blackness that you can't get anywhere else that means sitting down with your favorite celebrities debating whether new events are good or bad for the blacks playing games like six degrees of black separation and and so much more with that also means. Is that the nod. PODCAST is coming to an end. We have absolutely Sui loved making this podcast for the last two and a half years. But it's time for us to try something new and take the nod to the next level. Honestly we cannot wait to share. You guys that we've been cooking up. We still have two more episodes of the podcast left in their ones. You don't want to miss the final episode episode of the NOD podcast coming out January twenty seventh and as we are winding down the show. We wanted to give all of you the chance to ask US anything. So so tweet us at the non show or email us your ama questions at the nod at Gimblett Media Dot Com and if you WanNa stay updated about the latest I on the new visual daily version of the nod make sure to follow on twitter at the nod show if you aren't already or sign up for email updates at the nod God dot show from Gimblett media. This is denied a show about black culture from biggest fan. I'm the mayor getting. I am so very excited for everyone into here today story. It's a truly beautiful on about family. It's about the sacrifices that parents make in how they fall short and it's about how we feel infinite gratitude and resentment for the parents who gave us everything today. We're going to go on that journey with a friend of the show. UH-HUH SII t John Thomas Junior. He's a writer. Poet and radio producer here Gimblett and this is a piece he'd originally produced with the amazing audio folks folks over at Transom Dot Org and we're just so lucky to sharing it with us today say he was born in Sierra Leone and when he was eight years old his mom mom brought him to live with her in the states then when he was a teenager his mom got sick and she passed away. Sage struggle with how distant he felt from his mom. He's tried to work through it in his poetry over the years sites amazing writer. I know because when I hear his poetry I marvel at just how much he's willing linked to share. He loves her deeply personal poetry about his life and the world. Our story today is a blend of reporting and poetry but when he he tried to write about his relationship with his mom he struggled with the implications of what came out in his poetry. Here's why my room couldn't have been messing when she walked in. Maybe a stray socks dark out from underneath my bed. A goal from last night's dinner on the nightstand t shirt in front of the hamper jacket. Off Tangier everything just slightly out of place but it was disorganized enough that my mother shouted my name like the world was ending when I reached room. She didn't say a word is all the talking for months now. They had had become the color of the hallway light so yellow. It looked like she'd swallowed the bulb. She shuffled over towards me. She moves slower these days but her anger anger was still one of the healthiest things about her. It was the one thing the chemo hadn't taken away when my mother started yelling. I couldn't figure out why she so upset. I was sixteen in my room. Wasn't even that messy boy. My mother understood that I didn't was that her world was ending thing. She was running out of time had a few months best and if she hadn't gotten through to me yet. These small lessons of manhood like keeping your room Rome clean brushing your teeth applying deodorant on in the morning. If she was losing these tiny battles the what would happen to me. Who would help me become a man when she was gone? And what would my failure say about her. As a mother I could read between those lines. I just kept thinking my have room was not that messy. She talked and yell until I grew sick of her voice. I needed her to shut up. I don't remember what I said but I remember the shock that fell across her face when I said it like I gave her a glimpse of the disappointment I would become like I was no longer her son. She pursed her ellipse shuffled back to her room and shut the door behind her stock. Back Down the stairs I said to myself the words that would haunt me all these years percents I wish he would just die already and get it over with. I wish he would just die. I took a stand against my mother when she was at her. Lowest Abba Trade. Her and felt good about it. I finally planted my flag lack of rebellion against her in one but now ten years later I need to try and take that flag down and put away just months after she gave birth to me in Sierra Leone my mother was faced with a choice she could stay in Freetown with my father and they could raise their newborn together as a family or she could make one last trip to America. If she went to America she could renew her visa which was expiring in a few months she could work and she could start filling up unnecessary every paperwork to become a citizen at the time. It was clear to my parents that this choice made the most sense. Besides just a couple of years they thought off all the immigration documents will be approved and my father and I could join her in the states. They're the love between wife and her husband can be renewed and the bond between a mother and a son could be formed before son even spoke his first words in just a few short years. Our family can be reunited so when I was about one year old my mother left. She gets to be my father's name. SII T John Thomas Junior. She boarded a plane for America But by the time I'm three years old I'm still in Sierra Leone. My father throws me a birthday party in a photo. I'm just in a navy. Blue Mini suit a yellow dress shirt underneath tiny waistcoat. I'm snot nosed Justin smiling next to my birthday cake while other children dance around me doc at four years old I'm speaking I'm saying enough whereas now to be able to respond yes or no. My father is often pulling me away from and playtime and putting a phone up to my ear. The woman on the end of the phone asked me how school is going. If my father's taking good care of me I say yes. No whatever. We'll get back to my friends the fastest by the time. I'm five years old. I can understand understand what my father means when he says the woman on the end of the phone is your mother. I understand that it means something important that she's in America and that America is a good place to be but I don't understand how to feel about this woman. I don't remember meeting. How was she the same or different from all the women in Sierra Leone? Who have been helping helping my father to raise me at eight six? My father tells me she's coming to visit two months later. My mother walks through our doors and when I see her face for the first time. I'm not sure how to react. Surname is I mean. She has skin much lighter than mine in her smile as warm and bright the gold jewellery around her wrists arose of necklaces. Her sweet scent. She looks like a gift but a gift. That doesn't quite belong. Belong to me over the next two weeks. I spend almost every night in bed with my mother and father. I wake up within reach of both my parents for the first first time I can remember and I'm holding my mother the closest At seven my father tells me it's almost time the papers filed when our approved the flight would be purchased soon Mother was waiting eight years old aboard a plane for America. My mother had sacrificed eight years away from muscle this moment but it didn't look the way they expected. My papers were the only ones approved. Not My father's I'd be joining in her by be going alone. I take one last. Look my father. Before stepping onto the plane he smiles he waves. He would never join us The next eight years years I spent with my mother in America were not what I expected. Her smile was still bright but I rarely saw it and when she came home after long hours tending to the homes of White folks. My Mother didn't have the time or the patience to play with me to joke to make up for all the years we lost with each other. She had rented a Roman small apartment for the two of us and we shared the same bed again but most nights we slept on opposite ends. Thus can live in the West. And you're watching. I remember watching Disney channel admiring the white mothers whose only job seemed to be making their children happy. They don't stop the love. We'll make a deal. You come home when you're supposed to and from now on no bedtime our member. Begging my mother signed me up for sports hoping she would show up two games and yell obnoxiously things like. That's my boy but as she worked well into the night I walked walked home alone after games warmed up. Called food from the fridge sat in front of the television and wished I was white if I wanted her to be like the white moms on Disney channel the she wanted me to be like a young Barack Obama and the African kid who brought home straight as and would go on to be so successful he could save her from the night shift but the only thing I brought home from school was trouble. I stole a fought. I cheated on tests. I got into trouble because trouble gave me an identity. One one that was more interesting than the one. My mother had in mind for me. My mother and I always felt like we were not who we wanted each other to be. The only thing we had in common was that we were trying to survive in America. By the time I was fourteen. We've gotten word that my father the died back home and sixteen. I'm standing in the hallway with my mother again. She tells me she's found a lump a few months later she was gone to another poem. My mother for the first few years of my life. There was a voice on the other end of the line that I did not recognize. I heard it on my birthday. AH ON EDEN. Whenever I was sick the voice always seemed to call when there was something to celebrate or something that needed mending? It was my mother's voice. This reminding me that she was always there even when she wasn't. We held the whole relationship over the phone from dial tone to ring to the operator announcing that the credit was almost finished we talked on borrowed time trying to maintain connection ocean apart. Even though all she did was was asking me questions and all I did was answer. Yes or no brought me some small comfort. Her voice a few days after she died. I tried to call her. I laughed at myself when I picked up the phone. Was it that I had to say to this woman that made me foolish enough to forget that she was no longer longer here. I think I finally know the answer. I want to do what she did for me growing up. I want to ask her questions. That's what happened to the woman on the phone. Why were you so different in America was I- disappointment to you was I the reason you died? how you doing today. I'm good dangled. And maybe it's not too late to know what my mother would say. Santiago traveled back across the Ocean to to find out some working on this story about getting to know my mom a little bit more and Kind kind of working through the difficulties between me hers relationship but also Just trying to figure out who she was is outside of me and what what led to the short time the me and her hat together. Like what I think by now you know I have have. Maybe you don't but I have like a lot of regrets and things that I wish I could have said to her and things I wish would different between me and her I thought you might be one of the best people to help me work through some of that stuff because you knew her you want her. Aren't that far in age. And Yeah it is s. all the introduction engine. Okay don't and I'm sitting with my mother. Sister Cut Justice Uma. I like to call her. Auntie Cardi weren't when Hamas department on the West End of London. She sits up in bed. Arrests are back on a pile of pillows from almost any angle. Anti Cut. East face resembles ambles my mother's the smooth Brown cheekbones. How they rise all the way up to meet her small is when she smiles? How those is can command respect and invite that you win at the same damn time from this angle? Though her left side I see the only difference between her mother. A single gold tooth every every time she speaks at shines even though they share similar features ancelotti jokes that when they were younger people always said my mother was the pretty one and she agreed vay beautiful a woman that's Levin. Oh my gosh. She was classy. Everyone loves her people. All Oh my God. I'm telling you site your mom. She just came like flour when you look at her. What was your favorite feature about her? A smile has my when she's smile at you honestly you'll love He. Hey I'm Ben Sira I'm so you saw that. I did see that it wasn't hard to notice my mother's smile and radium beauty but it was hard to know the woman behind it. I had no idea what she was like growing up before America. They athletic she was sports. We have so many metals cops in our house just in her name. Would you guys sometimes talk about. They wanted to be when you grow up and like your aspirations and your hopes and dreams and yeah. I wanted to be lots of stuff. Because she was very intelligent tint to be secretary when she was about my age in her early twenties. My mother traveled to Europe. Spent holidays in. Switzerland attended school in England and earned her certificate as the secretary then she moved back home. Got Her dream job before marrying my father. This portrait my aunt was painting of a younger turn. It didn't quite match the mother I knew why wishy so reserved. What why? You're not the only ones who was like quiet STU Zeke. Id says my mother was always a kind of person who kept to herself even from her sisters but something about coming to America made her retreat even more into herself amid it was. It wasn't social all she he does was walk. Walk Walk Walk. Walk Home My mother and I could be in the same room and not say much to each other we could. You'd be listening to the same song that we both liked but never sing along together. Our distance may have been because she was tired and stressed from work. I got that but I still resented her besides back in Sierra Leone I was used to living with a parent who made me feel special. My father it was just different. He was he was a different person. I'm you know him like he was very likable. He was when he cares about you. His you know plays with you like he would take me to the beach every Sunday he would give me. He's spoiled me. Give me anything I ever wanted. And I just felt like the center of his world. It was unique. It was like the old. I've never experienced anything like that. And so when I think about him. I don't have any regrets. It's like even when he died. I was sad but I don't. I just feel so at peace with that your mother was just trying to to make you be a man everything she does for you with you was like I'm preparing for tomorrow. And she will tell me they found a man be man. I can't remember that Sade Latham now mind. Don't worry he's a man. Mohan says that was my mother's motto for raising me. But I wasn't a man. I was a boy in that young. It was hard to tell the difference between tough love and being pushed away so I ran straight into the arms of trouble a list of petty crimes. I committed growing up. There was a time I fought a kid over a bag of chips. The time I still see the mall so I could burn copies and raise money for new sneakers sneakers. The time I roam the streets with other kids who were searching for something. Their parents couldn't give we pop tires on parked cars for fun and call each other family. Then after I discovered what you could do with the cigarette lighter a can of axe body spray. My school had to punish me for bringing a weapon onto school. Brown's a flame thrower. I was expelled time. I felt more more of a disappointment to her than any any other time. As the time I felt like wow like I really am just not a good son and I'm not I'm not uh-huh just not ever going to get this right and I'm wondering I guess if she ever talk to you about. That never never aside. She had never took anything bad about you. See us nothing bad I got it was I just remember it being so bad like I will get suspended. I got expelled like it was like so bad. No listen appearance will discipline you the whole time she had said something's windows boys attack. You Aw me here. So I mean funeral service over the boys attacking me and I had forgotten all about this story during my tariff pissing. People off I had pissed off the wrong kid after school. He showed up to my house while my mom was at work I saw him do the peephole flanked by tune guys bigger than him but stepped out. Anyone fuck it the next thing. I knew I was eating size nine Nike boots and Air Forces as they stopped me out on my welcome Mat. After a few seconds of furious kicks and punches to micro DUB body. They ran away and I got up dust myself off and yelled something into the wind about hot. Get them back knowing damn well. I wouldn't and I went inside her days later. My mom asks me why was limping and I told her she asked if I was okay I said yes and we left it that after all the stress. I put her through. I didn't expect her the half sympathy for another one of my troubles and I thought she didn't but apparently she'd call on some. What would be saved? And you may have noticed Monte sometimes slips into Krio. She's doing that here. She saying the mother called her after the boys attack me it. She picked up the phone. Apparently my mom said to her some boys went and beat up saieed. I'm going to go see the head teacher today at Mississippi Bill Bill. It's Aleksey at my stomach has been knocks. The pain feels like giving birth to a child again. Trying to kill my child. I swear to God if those is boys touch my son again. I'll find a gun for them. Mine just laughed her off the way she's laughing with me now. He told her. If you find a gun for those boys they'll lock you up in that country. MOM said I don't care what ads I let them. Lock me up giving you a good base. It was so angry This call me completely by surprise. My mother was always angry at me because I gave her lots to be angry about but she was willing to pick up a gun and fight for me I've never seen the white moms on Disney channel. Do that But why would my mom hide that for me because it was all by herself and the children all by herself. My aunt says my mother wasn't the kind of person who laughed all the time or even told you what was on her mind and how much she loved you. She was the kind of person who thought hiding. Your emotions is the best way to protect the the people you love. Don't play. She does know out to dust cash that she said. My Mother didn't know how to dance. I'm serious she doesn't know how to dance Sometimes I wish I could just tell her like the reason I was doing all this stuff and I I just wish I could just tell her like I'm not bad. I'm not a bad kid. When she would talk to me and tell me the things that was how was destroyed my life basically and how was disappointing? Her I would. I would understand her. You know it's not like I couldn't understand what it's like. I was seeing myself through her eyes and I could see what she was saying. But but I just couldn't really translate that to my life because other things were more important you know like getting other kids to like me. At that age. She was like more important to me than listening to my mom. You know it was really it was. It was really hard for me that I that that I couldn't tell her that you know that I couldn't just tell her. I'm not doing this to hurt you. I just don't know what is going on with my life right now. And after the break saieed goes looking for closure from Gimblett a tale of two princes senses whose love and saved their kingdoms and the sorceress. Who could take it all away? It's a new beginning for all our people that's why it would be such a pity if it all came tumbling down. Don't worry I promise whatever happens. I'll keep you and this kingdom safe. All episodes of the two princes are out. Now follow and listen for free on spotify. My mother was buried in Sierra Leone. My papers weren't right so I couldn't attend the funeral. I could never visit the cemetery or kneel beside the headstone to forgive and be forgiven to make amends to sit in simply cry. They were just the photos of the funeral that I never kept in the poems I wrote. That never felt enough. Uh but in February of this year ten years after she died I went home and I saw her great for the first time. I didn't know what I would say to her. But as the tears began the only thing I could utter was. I'm sorry everything she'd worked for had finally come to pass. I had the good job Bob. The American passport the freedom to travel the world chase my dreams. Just she had when she was younger but I was too late. I know we don't always get to see the results of our sacrifices but I was sorry that she couldn't see me become the man she'd fought so hard to create. I was sorry I couldn't save her from the night shift from myself before we ran out of time. They don't have to be you. Don't say what do you want to give your mom at that age. Excuse me excited to play. Tend to be disturbing. Don't do that. She was just been hard on you for you to be better person. You understand you never. If you haven't done nothing okay Ed but like felt like my response is just feels like I was responsible for some things just feels like it feels like I couldn't stop something or I was supposed to make things better. I was the person she was grooming to be the person to help her. I I put her through so much stuff. I just felt like it was my fault. No site that was there. You didn't see she had never felt any only bad thing about you. Say No you a baby you a small. I don't say the big you haven't done nothing. Nothing wrong anywhere idol. She was just be for you to be. Ah A man for today does not your fault maybe on is right. It's perfectly normal molded as a teenager trouble is all I could afford to give my mother and her saying this. It almost frees me but I know I haven't told my aunt the whole truth. There's still one thing that hasn't let me go the thing. I couldn't even bring myself to ask my mother forgiveness for at her grave. There's one more thing that I feel like I need to say to you. I've never said this anyone before. I never told anyone this before. But this is the thing that happened and I think it was just me and her and and I I think I hadn't cleaned my room or like it was just like kind of messy and and I started to tell her about the rooms like yelling. She was like so mother's anger and the kind my anger start yelling back at her. I don't even know and the thing I said after the argument died. Just die because I can't do this anymore. I wish he would just die already. I wish he would just die. Do you think that thing that I said to myself where I felt like I was wishing my mom was dead. Do you you think that's something that she could forgive. Any mother could forgive. Side is how you felt. She had upsets you side if he even if he had said that she heard it is just what you feel like saying that moment site your last that Y'all L. moments waived forgiven plus to it will mean I've said about by things. Thank you might have been my is turning red or my voice beginning to crack. But she could tell I wasn't I'm convinced that my mother would have forgiven me so my aunt kept making her case. She told me a story about when she was young and angry at my mother was bad. MCAS site mom and her other sisters were going out. It will go into a thatt's out one. What some Quonsett I went to during the left's me when she found out that they'd left to go to the concert without her? She was so angry. She prayed that God but crashed their car. I sleep good for good meeting. People pick ax site. You can't believe they have the the oldest night when my mom got back home. She told the family they'd gotten into an accident. A pretty bad one. They call had flipped over on the way to the concert. Third and my grandma who had heard my aunt cursing her sisters earlier in the day immediately launched into yelling Auntie cutty chasing her around the house to beat her calling her which I did. It weirds as I laughed at. How ridiculous this whole scene must have been my getting her ass whipped for something that was obviously not real? I start to realize what she was trying to say in our family maybe every family we get pissed off and say things. We don't mean sometimes wish bad things on each other and if those things come to pass maybe somebody gives your name like which and punishes you or maybe you give yourself a name like ungrateful or disappointment and you spend years punishing yourself but in reality. I'm no more of a disappointment. The My aunt was a witch. It's obvious I know but if I couldn't hear from mother I needed to hear from her sister if I cut. He is capable of any magic doc. It's in her laughter the way she laughs at what I thought was my greatest regret the way she makes my shame vanish into thin air. Those all supposed to scoffs at me and tells me to go to sleep. She removes gold crown and crawls into bed. And I'm left feeling happier than I've ever felt about my mother. It borders between us. It's not just about forgiveness this. It's about sacrifice from the time I was born. You gave up so much of your own life to bring me to America and when I arrived I saw. Oh how that decision was still taking its toll on you on us. So I learned to make peace with your silence anger. I learned not to question it tonight right about it but ten years after your death I felt like I owed it to your sacrifices to tell the full story we. We weren't close by the time I met you in America. We were reunited. Yes but there were still borders between us. We didn't share displays of unconditional love love affection or forgiveness. Felt like we were immigrants to each other to people speaking different languages trying to make things work in a new country. You learning to dance from job to job travelling by bus and yellow taxi with nothing but tokens and lip balm in your purse finding ways to provide for the new eight year old child in your life trying to keep us on our feet long enough until dad could join. You must have been so lonely you you must have been disappointed with the way things turned out with how little you gained for sacrificing so much at the very least you needed to raise the man in me so tired of holding my tongue about the pressures of being a mother's last hope I let go and said the wrong thing at the wrong time but now I know I didn't know any better. Maybe neither of US did. But now I do know so. Some days I pick up my favorite photo smiling and put on one of your favorite songs that Eighties Lisa Stansfield track about finding the person you love a hold the small portrait of your face with both hands outstretched in front of me and I dance with you. You pretending always held each other this close that we always smiled at each other. This way that we never gave up Anything That story was borders between us and it was written and told by Saieed p John Thomas almost junior. We had so many things the things that was this transom radio special was produced by John Thomas Junior and me Jay Allison for the public radio website. TRANSOM DOT ORG in Woods Hole Massachusetts Music was by Bobby Lord and Timothy B. and the song you're listening to now is all around. The world ruled by Lisa Stansfield funding for this show came from the National Endowment for the Arts Arts and the supporters of transom to find out more about this show to see photographs and talk to the producers you can visit transom dot org where you'll also also find ideas tools and workshops for telling your own story special thanks to Digital Suma Hajer Suma teamer Remond Amami Kante Sherry Ricksen Lynn Levy and Gimblett media. Thomas King Brian Thomas and JOE TO T- John Thomas us. Thanks also to Milo Mason and Melissa Allison Vicky Merrick Samantha Brown Sydney Lewis Rob Rosenthal. And W you see a I and Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts. Every I don't know where she can be my baby. Be Him GonNa find us. She loved that.

America Sierra Leone US John Thomas Junior Disney Transom Dot Org Gimblett media Gimblett Media Dot Com Britney Eric writer Melissa Allison Vicky Merrick twitter Sui Lisa Stansfield Gimblett chemo Britain Ben Sira producer
Living With Murder: Part 2 (Rebroadcast)

The FRONTLINE Dispatch

41:00 min | 2 years ago

Living With Murder: Part 2 (Rebroadcast)

"I'm reading Aaronson executive producer of the PBS series frontline. And you're listening to the frontline dispatch this time, we continue our rebroadcast of living with murder. The frontline dispatch is made possible by the Abrahams foundation journalism initiative committed to excellence. If you haven't listened to the previous episode in the series. We hope you'll do. So now at the end of that episode reporter Samantha Brown was in conversation with Kemp asong Stor campus. What's known as juvenile lifer? Convicted of murder as a teen and sentenced to life in prison. But now he may be given a second chance Samantha's mother survived a violent crime committed by juvenile lifer. Who is also given a second chance as Samantha says she in campus earn unlikely. Up now in collaboration with the public radio website. Transcend daughter we bring you the second part of living with murder. A caution. This program contains descriptions violence, and may not be suitable for some listeners. Here's Samantha Brown. By June, two thousand seventeen Kemp asong stern. I had been talking for six months at the age of fifteen he and a co defendant were arrested for the murder of Andrew price campus has been in prison since then for thirty years. He was scheduled to go before a judge at the end of July to find out if his mandatory life without parole sentence would be reduced. I find myself in a precarious position in these conversations with campus over twenty years ago. My mother was the victim of violent crime the one you've heard about her attacker was Reginald McFadden a juvenile lifer out on parole. When McFadden was given a second chance he attacked my mother and murdered others at the time. I testified in front of a Senate Judiciary hearing in Harrisburg to make it more difficult for inmates to be given second chances now campus and thousands of others like him people who were sentenced to mandatory life without parole before they turned eighteen may be given just that. Campus is in a precarious situation to if things go his way, he could be set free on parole something he never thought was possible. If things don't go his way, he could remain in prison for much longer or for the rest of his life. I asked him what he thinks it will be like to go into Philadelphia for his resentencing hearing. Will it be the first time you're out in a van and driving and going into Philly in a long time? Kemba two thousand twelve everybody. Tell you this. And you haven't seen the full years, maybe decades, and you try and do the city and you see and people stand on corners waiting buses crossing the street kids with book bags and women carrying shopping bags pushing strollers, you know, it's just wow life. Never assumes. He's going home. And with good reason, he's guilty of a brutal first degree murder. It happened when campus and his codefendant Damian Brohm had been recruited to sell crack cocaine and Philadelphia with a drug gang called the shower posse. They were put in fortified houses and sold drugs through mail slots for hours on end campus made things worse by pocketing some of the drug money. He should have turned in after talking for a couple of months. I finally asked campus about the murder. You mean act the graphic of? No, I don't even mean the graphics of it. I just mean even. I guess I'm hoping that you'll tell me about that day. And what happened that you and Damian? Thought. That killing Andrew was what you needed to do. Campus begins to tell me, but it's obvious. It's not something. He likes to explain what I have to explain we don't then that would make everything else that I've been Sean explain I was too. Explain this part as well. But I just the more I'll go back to the Mon mom pulse by put doing. But I remember that. The damien. We win house together. We will hungry that dates campus Damian wanted out there were tired of not getting paid and not getting fed, but after stealing some of the drug money, they were afraid this was after all violent drug gang. They became paranoid campus said they began to think they might have to quote kill their way out and Joe came on that day. What makes it so hard to talk about this is because of? Who he was? No in hindsight. Was nothing like. You know, the rest of the dogs as have one minute last wasn't his fall. You didn't bring the food. I don't think he knew maybe he was told not to bring us. I don't know. But it wasn't didn't deserve. What happened? Thank you for juicy secures goodbyes. When Kemp is called me back before we continued. I asked how are you feel in campus? How is it for you to talk about this? It's difficult. I'm still thinking about it. You know, Angels' family eagle is you know, I think about it. Think about those folks I never thought, you know, I gotta be considered. I don't know how what caused the family. And I know that if I heard Reginald McFadden talking about what he did to my mom, I think it would send me through the roof. You know, I get it. I get it campus. And so even though campus describe to me what happened out of respect for the prices. I will tell you the rest of the crime. Kemba said at the height of their desperation and hunger and Joe price walked into the crack house with no food in hand. And no plan to bring them food anytime soon. Campus and Damian suspicion and anger escalated. They argued with Andro eventually it turned physical and then violent police records confirm. They strangled Andro with a wire tree cutter and stabbed him multiple times with what campus called Rambo knife. The boys then wrap seventeen year old Andro prices body in plastic and put him in the trunk of his car campus, Damian were arrested ten days later. The Philadelphia Inquirer reported that at the time of his death. And Joe had been missing from home for nineteen months when they got the news of Anjos murder. His family was heartbroken aero price. Andrew's father was so full of anguish. He almost didn't attend. His son's funeral a little over a year, later campus and Damien were tried for the crime. Kemp asong Stor Damian Brome, remember them. Well, Jack McMahon was the prosecutor who tried the case against Kempson Damian. I walked in there with that previous knowledge of what the case was all about. And then seeing this really to children sitting in there. You know, it had some effect on me. I mean, you know, and and you felt sorry for everybody involved in this case when you didn't feel sorry for the guys brought him down here and put him in that situation. But they weren't part of the case McMahon offered campus Damian a deal to plead guilty to third degree murder a likely sentence of ten to twenty years. The hope was the boys would give up information about the shower posse gang and in exchange. Avoid a mandatory life sentence campus said when the offer was made he couldn't fathom spending ten years of his life in prison, and so against the advice of their lawyers and their parents campus, Damian. Didn't take the deal they pled not guilty and opted to go to trial. I remember leaving that courtroom and look into those young men going, man. This is a waste. This is a real tragedy. A dead kid and two kids that are basically lives are thrown away. And it was just a. This ad moment at the time. Kemp asong Stor in deemed broom were sixteen and like most of the growing number of juvenile lifers, Pennsylvania, they were black and neither had any prior offenses. Death by incarceration, that's how campus and many others like him across the country. See the sentence you've been given sentenced to die in prison until that is the recent supreme court rulings that call mandatory life without parole sentences for juveniles cruel and unusual punishment rulings which you science to show that adults and brains aren't fully developed rulings, which require that juvenile lifers have the opportunity to show they have changed and restore their hope for life outside of prison. But these rulings have very large very different implications for victims for Bobby jam risk who's pregnant sister was murdered by her fifteen year old boyfriend over twenty years ago. No amount of transformation is enough whatever their crime, Liz, you can't just as miss their crime and say well that was twenty years ago, and they've changed and he's been a model prisoner, and he got his GED or whatever that doesn't change the fact that there are people they shouldn't be in society, regardless of whatever their record is in prison or whatever they've done since then they should be locked up. Bradley bridge has been a public defender in Philadelphia since nineteen Eighty-three his office represents hundreds of the juvenile lifers. Currently coming up for resentencing he sees things differently. This group of people although promised to be able to die in prison and having no particular reason to better themselves have people have gone on and gotten degrees. The misconducts draw. Yep. They are very very stable part of the prison, which is really interesting. I think it says something about humanity in a positive way beyond behavior. There's remorse which is something that I'm interested in. How do you know, if your client is remorseful? You look at the rise us see how they respond, and then you form an assessment the same way, you form an assessment about anybody in day to day life about whether they're telling you the truth. This population is actually generally quite remorseful deep googly almo- worked for the Pennsylvania department of corrections for over thirty five years before he retired. He was the superintendent of greater for prison where campuses now he has a more skeptical view. Here's what he says about many of the prisoners who showed deep regret for what they've done. Those are what the in makes us to refer to as the professional remorse. The guy. Is who express remorse for their sins? But of course, the inmates don't believe it. But so many of them I think really don't care much about what the impact of their actions have on other people. The professional remorse tres. Yeah. It's their job to express remorse for the criminal of the world. They're the apologists. I spoke to Dave Digal YoM. Oh, you know, who he is. Right. Yeah. He said that there's this term professional remorse. Have you heard that? Professional wash. I've never heard that term. But I I I know that means. Sarid? But that's the first time I've ever heard that term. What do you think it means? I guess would mean. They did they remorse is something manufacture something. That's rehearsed. You know what? I mean. Sam dislike and I've heard this over the years person while they're in prison. Extend decades change in lives. You know, stay out of trouble took advantage every program and every opportunity to better themselves, everything Jad one part of the punishment for us ac- supposed to accomplish which is rehabilitation and they might get before the parole. And then they might hear something like you're just trying to be nebula to you're trying to finish your way out of the situation. Yeah. I think there are a lot of people out here. Think that's the case that thank criminals are cons. Right, right. And I'm saying thing that's just sometimes people don't want you to do. They just want you to die. Sit down. And not tally. I know a guy only has one misconduct. Forty one years. I mean, that's who seeking. For forty one years. How do you know who actually is feeling remorse, and and verses people who just know what to say I've talked to people fan. I mean, one on one was sitting there talking and they start crying. No one out. Just knee. And now. You know? Go and city. Especially who knows what they're in prison for to have that formidable moment that we mall. They. Can't give them anything. I don't handle money out. My son nearly states. Not knowing that someone truly feels remorse trusting that? Someone really has changed. How do we know for sure how do we know? I wanted to talk with someone who I knew would understand the moral and practical balance of second chances. Do you still believe in second chances? I do. Yeah. I do not not really says something because I can say without any fear of contradiction that a decision I made that resulted in a second chance for a particular individual destroyed my political career. You might remember Mark single from part one of this series. He was the Lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania back in the early nineties on his way to be governor. He sat on the board of pardons that reviewed reginal mcfadden's application for commutation McFadden is the man who brutally attacked my mother murdered others. Mark single was the head of the board at the time. He along with three other members voted, yes. On mcfadden's application. I mean, I find myself in this position right now as I'm talking to campus. I hear I hear I hear all the work. He's done. I I mean this man has read about neuroscience. He wants to understand why he did what he did at fifteen and he's spent the last thirty years going over the first fifteen years of his life. And when I hear him speak. I hear remorse, and it moves me. And and yet. I think would I have felt the same way. If I talked to Reginald McFadden before he was released would I have heard from him what I'm hearing From Compass? How do you know the difference? How do you know? And I'm curious as a person who is in a position to grant mercy to give second chances and as a person who had a second chance. Go horribly wrong. What would you say to the people who are now in that position? First of all, I think it's important to acknowledge that we're not suckers, we're not chumps have to understand that as a public official. You have a duty to the people that sent you there to really develop your radar. So that you don't get taken in. It is easy to get seduced by somebody telling you good story. I think you have to develop that radar. Quickly. So that you can tell the difference. Now having said that it is astounding. And it is moving when you really do come across a case where somebody clearly has earned some consideration. I mean once they pass the crap test once once you're convinced that there are some merit here. We ought to be at least willing to hear them out. And listen and not just you know, narrow our eyes or walk around the bodies that are lost a society. We've got to open our eyes a little bit and be a little bit more compassionate. We have the anger and revenge down cold. Everybody's got that. But the mercy and the charity we need to develop that piece in equal amount. Hi, this is renewed again frontline's executive producer here at frontline. We've long been known for our documentary foams, but some stories like this one are just meant to be told an audio whatever the form though, we remain committed to the sort of tough fair and deeply reported journalism. You've come to expect from us to support the dispatch. Please go to our website, frontline, dispatch dot org and click donate. Thanks so much. If you've I'll you enjoy the stories or uring from the frontline dispatch, you should check out reveal reveals an innovative podcast brought to you by the center for investigative reporting NPR X frontline CR of collaborated on multiple important investigations over the years recently reveal launched a two part series called case cleared, it examines how police departments throughout the country handle sexual assault cases, you can find reveal on itunes radio public or anywhere. You get your podcast. Learn more at reveal news dot org. No. So can I ask you a question? I get what you're saying that that this that you aren't your worst act, but I imagine. You know, when a court says, you're guilty when you feel you're guilty when you know, you're guilty, which is what I hear you saying. And you're sent to prison for life. It must take a long time to begin to realize that there's the option that you are more than that. Guilty by outside. The courts means something different than when you when you finally save yourself, man, I'm guilty. But he say out loud. That's when it settled inch on a level. Do you? Remember that moment for you. Thank what started it, really. Statement. I read. Angels' fun. Campus was fifteen when he read a statement from aero price in the Philadelphia Inquirer. A statement. Aero prices said he doesn't remember ever making. The price narrow price Angeles funded fit. I feel rage at these two boys for the Justice innocent Anshu. It was just. Threat that he felt no. Deep down you'll innocent. You know on new wasn't. I mean, it's so it's so profound to me that this little missive comes to you from the father of of the boy that you killed. I just I just wonder you have one minute left. The most important thing. Phil. It was Shane. A real change. I felt so ashamed. Is this this man? Sanders. I felt shame. Thanks for using securi-. 'cause I. Most of the families that are coming before us now know that okay? There's a high or good likelihood that these individuals are going to get paroled. Jennifer storm is Pennsylvania's victim advocate. It's been her job. The job of her office to reach out to the hundreds of crime victims in the state to inform them about the supreme court decisions and to walk them through the realities and possible outcomes of the resentencing if there's one lesson to be learned about crime victims is that every victim experiences their experience uniquely, and it's really hard to paint a broad brush over in a tire population. When there's five hundred seventeen cases, and there are multiple victims and family members engage in these cases, and they're all experiencing differently. We have some people in the family who are at the very early stages of dealing with grief. We have some who are standing up in court saying release the offender, I forgive him. Andrew price campus victim came from a large Jamaican family. I went to see to Shiro price his youngest sibling about ten days before the resentencing, although she was only five or six at the time. She remembers when Andrew went missing, I know the my parents were concerned they were of course, looking for him in asking my other older siblings. If they had seen him in heard from him in such but it was like he was he vanished. They didn't know where he was until they found out. He had passed one of the things I'm aware of having lived through what happened to my mom is the way that trauma stays with a family, and I think it changes, and I think it's different for each individual family member. But I'm wondering how the trauma of what happened to Andro and the grief how that how that stayed in your family, and maybe how you witnessed it impacting the member. Of your family from what I've observed. I think that they kinda just soup rest the feelings. And and every time it's brought up it kind of rehashes those emotions, and then they suppress them again because they've gotten so used to just not really dealing with overall pain. And what about you how how has your relationship to it changed time if at all, and where do you stand with upcoming resentencing where I stand with the case, I think from reading about campus that if he gets a second chance, I would not oppose to it. And I wouldn't be said about it. I I I hope that he would take the second chance to make the best with his life and rectify, you know, the missed the the huge mistake that he may he took a life, and then life is no longer here never comes back. And I hope I just really hope that he is who he betrays itself. To be and I will eat usually do think. So because he had no idea knowing that he was going to be have a chance to be released. That's generous of you. It's honest. I'm just being honest. And so how how is your dad now? He's okay. It's just it's still a loss. And I think that even almost thirty years later that it's just tough still. Yeah. And especially from all this coming back up again. I just see the hurt. In the three days leading up to the resentencing campus. And I talk every day. I want to sleep last night. I think more. I was thinking about Mr. price. What he's gonna be their campus. And Mr. price have never been in the same room before Mr. price didn't attend the trial back in the eighties. I didn't think it was possible for this percents in him to become more important than when I heard he was coming. What? This is about. It's. I never knew how I would approach. I mean, physically you know, what I put head down hit a hand out for to handshake. At the I would have, you know, there's no annual is no script for this. Because this kind of thing ain't supposed to happen. I tried to interview Mr. price for the story. We spoke on the phone if you times, he was always, warm and polite. We even said a date for me to go see him in Texas. But ultimately he cancelled and then texted saying, I'm not trying to ignore you. But I don't want to relive this tragic incident. Again, it happens every time I talk about it. I can't wait for this to be over. It's Sunday July twenty third large group of supporters have gathered in downtown Philadelphia near the courthouse where campuses resentencing will happen. The next day. They're singing when lifers marching home again these are supporters of campus in people want to see an end to life without parole sentences for juveniles the local public radio station reported that there were a couple hundred people there many wearing orange t shirts that read either leave in a right to. Option. Campuses mother. Is there an uncle several aunts and cousins, they've come from Chicago, North Carolina, New York, even his grandmother from Trinidad is in town after gathering in a church the crowd takes to the streets. Marching with banners that read end death by incarceration and transformation. Not retribution. During. Too early. The next day and watched as it filled to capacity, and then overcapacity Chesley lights is an assistant district attorney and represented the case against campus at three sentencing, I think the process in the courtroom is particularly difficult because there's been a festive atmosphere on the defense side. And I understand why. Because you know, the defendant's family has waited for this day. And so it's jubilant, but it's it's such a I don't know I've had victims families who just felt it made all the more difficult because for them. This was a very somber occasion. And again, it made them feel like the whole focus was on the defendant and not on the actual crime many of the crimes that are coming up for resentencing. Now, you would look at and say these are brutal crimes, that's campuses lawyer, Doug, FOX, he and the firm he were. For have represented campus pro Bono since two thousand two they along with a mitigation specialist spent hundreds of hours preparing for the resentencing. So I fully understand. Victim's perspective on this. And so will the judges that? But that's not the issue. The issue is as this court said where were the juvenile offenders or they reprobate corrupt at this point or or they to be given a second chance because they were juvenile offenders. By the time Errol and tissue price arrived at the courtroom people had to be asked to move. So there was room for them near the front from what I could tell the prices were the only two not counting the DA SAF who accompanied them in who were there to represent Andro. Beside the courts to Naga for the Pennsylvania department of corrections does not allow these hearings to be recorded. But I witnessed it all from the front row of the jury box, which is where they put members of the press. If you had been there, you would have felt the hush in the courtroom and heard the shackles on campus hands and feet as he shuffled in. You would have seen Mr. price behind dark glasses fidgeting and folded over on himself determined to be there, but clearly uncomfortable then listened to the mitigating circumstances of campus. Childhood how his mom worked a lot. And he was left on his own that he witnessed violence inside and outside his home that he was depressed and tried to take his own life at fourteen you would have heard campuses mother describing him as the bridge in their family maintaining relationships with both the older and younger generations from inside prison, witnessed campuses aunt searching for the prices from the stance aying, we are linked. But by something that is not good. So on behalf of my family. We are sorry. And then heard former and current prison staff praise campus and his. Accomplishments? A college professor statement that campus is in prison, but he's not a prison. You would have watched as Shiro an arrow price each took the stand to shura talking about how difficult this was on her family how it divided her siblings and destroyed her parents marriage. You would have heard Mr. price say there's a victim here. That's never going to get released from where he is he's dead. And describe how his family blamed him for not going out and finding Joe when he ran away that he was supposed to fix it. But he couldn't that there's been no peace since this happened. How Andrew's mother died year and a half ago, Mr. price found some of Anjos clothes in her closet. You'd hear him say that he missed his wife that he missed knowing who is son would have been that. He missed his sons art. You would have watched campus rise when his time came and heard him asked the judge if he could turn and face the prices, which he did you would have heard him tell Mr. price with those words quoted in the newspaper meant to him the good things he saw Andro even under the terrible circumstances. They were in. You would have heard Kemp assay how sorry he was over an over as campus spoke. You would have seen Mr. price take off his dark glasses and looked directly at campus. And you would have heard to Shiro price say back to campus. I believe you. And finally the district attorney reminding everyone about the brutal details of the murder the strangling. The stabbing that Andrews body was left in the trunk of his car that will campus childhood may have been hard. It wasn't as hard as some other juvenile lifers that he came from a large and loving family that he was placed in gifted classes, she would point out problems and campuses prison record a prison riot. He was caught up in when he was seventeen accusations of salting guards in his twenty's trouble adjusting issues, she said that shouldn't be ignored issues. Campuses. Lawyer would dispute. And when all the arguments had been Mead. You would've watched as the judge got up to leave the courtroom. You would have sat waiting suspended in that room with Kemp Assange or in the price family with the feelings of inconsolable grief and loss and tragedy. And when the judge returned ten minutes later, you would have held your breath as resentenced Kemp. Asong Stor to thirty years to life because campus has already served thirty years. The new sentence makes them eligible to go in front of the parole board immediately his fate now in their hands. If all goes in his favor campus could be home by Christmas. When I spoke with tissue replace the next day. She said she was relieved it was over about a week later. She asked for campuses address, greater furred. She said she wanted to send him a letter. I continued to reach out to Mr. price talking about this isn't an easier for him. When I spoke to campus after his resentencing, he said that although the day felt like a right of passage. It also made him realize how nothing he can do we'll ever fix things really. As with most things that happened in court, not everyone was pleased with the outcome. If it had been up to Chesley light, see the district attorney. She says she would have delayed campuses possibility for parole by five more years. She stands on the side of caution. What we're trying to look at within these records. Are who are these people? Really? Who are they when they don't think it matters. You know in terms of it doesn't matter for getting out. Are you concerned that he'll refund not in a violent way? Absolutely not now. I do not think that he will Jennifer storm. Pennsylvania's victim advocate says of the current mood in Pennsylvania, and this juvenile lifer. Kind of climate it is release release release. I think in some instances, maybe more people than should be released in for Bobby Jim risk outcomes. Like campuses point to a possible future for the man who murdered her fifteen year old sister, and our unborn baby. I always tell people I have to wrap my head around the fact that depending on what happens when he has his hearing, I could literally be walking through a shopping mall and see the person that murdered my sister and her baby, you know, in the store by jeans like nothing ever happened. As of October two thousand seventeen one hundred sixty five juvenile lifers and Pennsylvania have been resentenced Eighty-one have been released, and according to the Pennsylvania department of corrections. No juvenile lifer released since reginal McFadden has re-offended. In case, you're wondering, Damian broom campuses co-defendant went before judge about a month after chemist it. He too got a reduced sentence of thirty years to life making him immediately. Eligible to go before the parole board the man who murdered Bobby Gemma's because pregnant sister was resentenced to thirty five years to life. He'll be eligible for parole in ten years. Campus, and I have been talking for nearly a year. Now, we've recorded over thirty five hours of our conversations with join from like this. Definitely people that I need. This kinda comes issue. Might need to be they themselves need to be a part of a conversation like this. But even if you weren't record this was just a personal conversation between you and night, and nobody knows about. But you it's it's it's. To me the to me too. Get ready to cut us. Okay. How about if we talk Friday morning? We're. Okay. All right. Take it easy to. The colour has enough. As of this recording campus is still at greater for prison. He's gone in front of the parole board any thinks it went. Well, he should receive their written decision any day now. I thought a lot about trust in my conversations with campus in how I can trust him. But I realize at this point that's not a question for campus. It's up to me. Campus, and I continue to talk to each other nearly every week. And we'll keep talking. This story was written reported by Samantha Brown. It was produced by Samantha in. Jay Allison in collaboration with the public radio website, transom dot org for PBS's frontline. The story was produced by Sophie mcken, Sophie is our series producer, Jamie York is our senior producer in our creative director and senior editor is j Allison j also does our audio mixing Andrew Mets is our managing editor Lauren as kin LA is our series story editor Amy gains, associate producer in our special counsel. Is Dale Cohen. Lisa plune helped with the fact checking our interns for the first season. Julia press and Dina Kleiner, thanks to Atlantic public media woods hole. Massachusetts into Melissa Allison music. In this episode comes from stellwagen symphony the frontline dispatches produced W B studios in Boston. Empowered by Pierre ex I'm Rini earns in frontline's, executive producer. And I hope you'll keep listening to the frontline dispatch. Also, check out more of a reporting on juvenile lifers, including our documentary foam, second chance, kids out our website, PBS dot org slash frontline. And please subscribe to the frontline dispatch. So you don't miss our next season. The frontline dispatch is made possible by the Abrahams foundation journalism initiative committed to excellence this episode received additional support from the National Endowment for the arts. Ex.

Joe price Reginald McFadden Pennsylvania murder Kempson Damian Andrew resentenced Kemp Samantha Brown Andrew price campus Andro executive producer Philadelphia resentencing campus Abrahams foundation Jennifer storm The Philadelphia Inquirer Kemp asong Stor first degree murder Shiro
Secret History of Peanut Butter: How One Woman Changed the FDA

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

53:12 min | 2 years ago

Secret History of Peanut Butter: How One Woman Changed the FDA

"Did you know that you can visit Bob's red mill in Milwaukee, Oregon, you can tour the mill shop at the whole grain store and bakery or eat at the restaurant. You'll also be able to try some of their great whole grain products. See their historical milling equipment and watch the modern factory in action. You might even see Bob there himself enjoying a bowl of oatmeal visiting with customers or playing the piano. If you can't make it to the mill, make sure to visit Bob's red milk dot com to explore the variety of great products they have to offer. Hi, this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading this week's podcast. You can go to our website milk street radio dot com for each week's recipe or one recommendations and also updates about her cooking school in live events at milk street. I hope that you enjoy this week's show. This is most your radio from Pierre PX your host Christopher Kimball. On today's show. I speak with Christy Clark about how one consumer crusader that's Ruthie. Desmond used the peanut butter controversy to change our food regulation system. A lot of what the FDA does now and what it was doing back in the time of these peanut butter wars was trying to figure out how many peanuts should there be in peanut butter, and should it be one hundred percent peanuts or if not been, where should the line be drawn? And that quickly becomes an existential question, even if you think it's a really simple question at the beginning. But before we dive into peanut butter and check in with reporters, Shane Sheely who visited the bus station Tel-Aviv to get great Filipino food. Shayna. How are you. I'm good. How are you? Good. Let's start in Tel Aviv on a Saturday afternoon, the Sabbath. There's a very large bus station two and a half million square feet there. Let's start to story there. Okay. So Saturdays and Tel Aviv are pretty slow days. Most people including foreign workers have a day off the day of rest. Public transportation shuts down. A lot of the shops are closed. People go to the beach and the bus station is pretty much shutdown except for the fourth floor which transforms into sort of a little Manila. There's a food market and it comes alive with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Filipino workers. I stepped in line and started talking to some of the women there. On Saturdays, manipulate units are coming here. You know, the IRA meeting, they're friends. Some, they are eating some Filipino delicacies the they are selling here. So women Filipina caregivers who have their day off. Basically, they get off work. They go home and they'll either start cooking Friday night or early Saturday morning, and they show up at the bus station around noon. They'll bring these like huge plastic Tupperware's filled with warm noodles and stir fries, vegetable dishes, little plastic containers, full of desserts, and they set up these tables in the hallway of the bus station. There's also produce markets so they sell produce that normally you don't get an Israel. So Qasaba route lemongrass different bitter gourds that you don't normally see in an Israeli grocery store. We'll all be like stocked up in the bus station, and they come not only to eat and to have these familiar foods. But they also come to hang out with friends and see relatives and people who they knew from the Philippines to see how their work is going into Chad about work and life in Israel and life away from their families. In the Philippines. It's good. It's like for us, fellow Filipinos. It's half full like happiness for us. Chabad. To give us relief. You know, from one week job that they were all people. So Shane, how did you come across a story in the first place? How did you find the fourth floor of the bus station? So I was reporting based in Jerusalem, and I spent a lot of time going back and forth from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and on Saturday nights. I would notice that the bus station just sort of had a different vibe. And so when I realized that there is Filipino market there, I started spending more and more time there. And what's so amazing to me is that these women, they live in a foreign country and they have a place that they can come together and taste something that's familiar. The a lot of them haven't been home in years and years. They're separated from their families. They're separated from their kids and all week long they have to eat is really food, which is so different from the food that they grow up with. And this is the one day that they can come and feel home and speak in there. Own language and eat the food that they grew up with everything. All most of the village Vina food. I love what have you eaten today? I eat -fensive and adults. And what do you, what will you eat for dessert? This Wookey it's wheat since I, the two mobile. It's beans, green beans, and these glutinous. Now, why Filipinos is there something particular about the Filipinos working in Israel for a particular reason? So Filipinos work as caregivers all over the Middle East and really all over the world. But specifically in the Middle East overseas, foreign workers which are called o. f. in the Philippines, they make up about ten percent of the Filipino population. And so that's that's pretty big. So in the late eighties, Israel made a policy to import migrant workers from developing countries and they came by the hundreds of thousands. A lot of these women haven't been back home in years. I have two kids ready. My younger one is only one year old. When I came here. I snapped easy. Breath for money. The point that by the whole family. So is this something at the bus station that just started or it's been going on for ten years or what it's been going on for years, and it's become sort of this main area where Filipinos come to congregate, spoke with two women Janette and Bailey. And they told me that the reason they come to eat this food here in the bus station is because they live with their employers, their employers keep kosher, so they can't cook pork in their employer's homes. And a lot of Filipino food is pork. Here's Bailey. Gotta love it in it would be close to the blue, doesn't one the Smith and also it's forbidden. So that's why they are coming here all the time. Then there's Yona lean. She works in far SABA, which is about an hour north of Tel Aviv. She's thirty eight years old. She's been in Israel for ten years. She came to Israel to work as a caregiver or admit appellate. She when I spoke to her, she was eating mummy, which is. It was described to me as sort of actually it was described to me in Hebrew as Morocco Auras, which means like soup with rice. It's sort of like get chicken soup. It's like comfort soup. And she said, when she comes to the fourth floor of the bus station, she feels like she's at home in the Philippines. Because we grow up from this. We know that pays every time you. So this is a bus station that has been transformed into a community center at the very least it may be something even more than that. So. So what? What's the bigger meaning here? It's not just food is not just companionship it's about a culture within a culture, right? Yeah. And I think you find this in America. You find this all over the world where people are living in a place that's really far away from home really far away from familiar comforts really far away from family to me, it's really incredible the way that people come together and build that for themselves. And I think that's what's happened inside the bus station. Shannon, thank you so much. Great story. It makes me wanna go to the fourth floor of the bus station Tel Aviv. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was reporter and producer, Shane, Sheila. You can subscribe and listen to radio. Anytime is podcast. New shows vailable every Friday and itunes or wherever you download our podcast, please subscribe and get all of our shows downloaded automatically right to your phone right now, my co host ceremony, and I will be taking some of your calls. Sarah is of course the star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television as well as author of the book home cooking one on one. Sarah, are you ready to go, Chris? I'm great. And I'm ready to go. Welcome to milk street who's calling. Hi, this is Brad Inman. Hi, Brad. How can we help you today? Yeah, I had a question regarding ingredients that are called to be graded and recipes. A lot of times it calls for things like onions or ginger, and it releases a lot of juices and I didn't know whether to include those juices or not. 'cause I kind of assume that's where all the flavor is, but at a lot of times they're also called for quick cooking methods, so it didn't really make sense. You mean if you're trying to Brown it, what's all that liquid doing in there? Right, exactly. What kind of recipes are you making? What nationality? Couple are Italian, but a lot of times it's with ginger, a lot of moisture comes out and stuff like stir fries, that sort of thing. Well, first of. Of all ginger, and also graded zest by the way because you get the essential oils. You definitely want to throw that out. And there's a little gadget called the kitchen IQ ginger, greater, which I love. It's a little plastic thing cost, fifteen or twenty bucks in the great ginger very quickly. What does it look like? Chris, green plastic. It's like an oval shape looks maybe five or six inches wide and has a little drawer the pulls out, oh, really capture all the juice and the grated ginger, and that's relent. Great. What's it's called kitchen IQ, ginger, grain. Okay. Now works great onions, I think when you giants or chopped onions there, so little liquid being given off I as the volume of onions, I don't think that's as big some recipes say degraded, oh, if you great, it sure you can great right over the bowl or right over the pan or wherever it's going. I would use it. Klute that liquid is long as you're not going to be watering down whatever you're doing like addressing. But if your heating and cooking the skill. Yes, it'll be fine. Absolutely. I'm not sure that. Well, that's no onion juice would have a lot of flavor. We've actually used that for a cure for salmon and fish. Sometimes on juice, I could see it in America. I would think it'd be there's pastes in a lot of cuisines where you make a pace that's a wet paste, and then you go ahead and saute it anyway. Save it. Yeah, by the way is I said with orange or lemon or lime zest, don't do that over the cutting board because the essential oils and up on the cutting board. And that's where a lot of the flavors so makes her use zest right over the bowl, wherever you agreements are gonna go use a microphone test or whatever do that right over the ball, and you won't lose those essential oils. Okay. Awesome. That sounds great. Yeah, usually use a micro plane for ginger and that just kinda makes a pulpy. No, that doesn't work. No, definitely has to look into. To that. Yeah, that's. That's definitely the better way to do it. Okay, great. There you go. Thank you for calling. All right. Thanks, Brad. Thank you so much. Welcome to mill street who's calling. This is Alex hauling from airport, New York. How can we help you? Well, on calling with a question about custard and custard pies, physically chest high, and then getting the pie to Seth and give that perfect silky texture. I've had two runs with a trying out a recipe. I haven't quite gotten the temperature. I don't think right and the timing, right. I've had it sort of seize up and turn into one solid mass. Fifty questions. I really pick like the most difficult thing. It's baking plus sugar, plus eggs plus Jerry. So what are we talking about? Just a basic custard pie or a particular kind the cranberry chest high with orange estimate. There's two cups of chopped cranberries in the pie, and then we've got eggs and butter milk and butter just hasn't set properly and say about three quarters of the top of the pile is solid. And then you had that really luxury so key custard at the bottom for like a quarter inch. The second time I made it was like from one minute to the next at once I'm gigli chew completely set an overcooked question. Did you take the pie out on the center was still jiggling? No. The instruction says the pie is done when the top is slightly puffed and has turned to light golden Brown, know what you need to do with any custard pie. Think might help is the center comfortable. Inches or so it should still jiggle because there's a lot of retained heat and carry over cooking. What's it comes out of the oven. If you want the perfect temperature when cooled, the center has to be undercooked and it will finish cooking outside of the oven. If you wait too, accuster pies, totally set. This often happens with cheesecake I was going to say cheesecake it happens. It happens with pecan pie. Other things you really have to under bake the center message, it will and then just jiggle aside holding onto an oven mitt, and then over the next fifteen or twenty minutes, it'll set up properly, but that will help the other thing. You have to check his course your oven temperature. But you know, you waited until it was fully set, which means it will be overcooked by the time it comes out Sarah, I agree. I agree. I think Chris, you're probably right. Quick question, how many eggs and how much buttermilk how much sugar, large eggs. One Cup of better idea, decrease the sugar a little bit. I took servers. Quarter and I used, you know, a little bit less than a Cup, and I thought the flavor was great, but I'm also wondering how much district play into this is extra. There's what happens on the college show like everything's fine to the five minutes into the on. And someone says, what all happened cooked it over my barbecue really hurt. Well, you're right. Sugar is high. Grow Skop at attracts moisture. It has a huge effect on something like a custard pie because the chemistry. So go back and use the original amount and take it out when it's jiggles in the center. If that works, then you know you solve that problem. Now the question is how much sugar you can take out, especially with the cranberries. I would think that could be a problem. You might have to add an extra egg, that's very delicate chemistry out. All right. I will certainly try that. So thank you both so much for your insight. Now. We'll see what happens now. Thank you. Bye-bye. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. If you have a cooking failure, a complaint or if you just want to try to stump us, give us a call. That number is eight, five, five, four to six, nine eight, four, three, eight, five, five, four to six, nine eight, four, three or Email us at questions at milk street, radio dot com. Welcome to milk street who's calling. One is Ryan. I live in Logan, Ohio. Hi Ryan. What is your question today? Well, my question is about Masa and next to him is -ation. We grew some of our own field corn last year. Wow. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. So we were trying to make Mafa at home and we did not have, I guess it's pickling line. So we were trying to use what ashes and we weren't really able to find a lot of good information. So I was wondering if you guys. At enhancers I go to Amazon and get the right stuff and get it to your door tomorrow. That's what I would do. I've heard about what is being used. The question is what kind of wood is. I mean, what do they do with it? I would go get the right stuff, but by the way I do have a question I soon it's very specific type of corn you're growing for this, right? It's a field corn to lots of kinds of feel corner. I mean, is this a right? That was another thing that came up. We grew and a talion variety. I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head, but I did notice the kernels look a little bit more like popcorn, but it's marketed as a Flint corn like something you would use for polenta or we've made corn bread with it and things like that. So that was another thought that I wondered if that would make it more difficult to make Masa with it. The colonels were a little bit smaller and point to kind of how popcorn is, you know you can buy. Masa. I mean, you you look, let me just understand this. You're doing this because it's an I perfectly agree with you. This is just a cool thing to want to try to do. Right, right. Yeah. I think it was an episode of fear is that they're talking about corn tortillas and how the flavor was better. If you've made it at home fresh compared to like using Masa Harina like the stuffy at the store that's dried. No, I I don't think we were saying, grow your own field corn, boiling. Mixture, pour it off, get rid of the hus-, boil it for four hours. I think we just meant that if you made your own mixture at home instead of buying them premade, here's a thought there. So wonderful RT's Noel accompanies that. Make Ritz and ground corn, not Anson mills as it's answering meals. So I wouldn't be surprised if you call the bands and mills and ask them what is the proportion that they wouldn't tell you and then call one of the companies and just order the Masa. And then I, this is going there and doing what to do once that would be my best gestion. Even though both of us were hippies back in the day, we weren't grinding around going back that Ryan. Thank you so much. Yeah, Ray question. I'll give it all. Yeah, I hope you find the answer. Listening to milk street radio. I'm host Christopher complain coming up next, my conversation with Christy Clark. I'll be chatting with her about the secret history of peanut butter after the break in. Now the modern kitchen is nothing. Like what I grew up with the choices of fixtures sinks. 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The other thing I noticed right away is that there is no quarter charging station. The battery is located inside and that's a really good idea. You also get a new brush head every three months, and a fresh brush head makes all the difference in by the way. It does a great job. In this case, smaller really is better. And quip also offers sonic vibrations to help clean, gently and thoroughly. That's why I love quip and why they're backed by over twenty thousand dental professionals. Quip starts at just twenty five dollars. And if you go to get quip dot com slash milk right now, you get your first refill pack for free with a quip, electric toothbrush. That's your first refill pack free at g. DT q. u. i. p. dot com. Slash m I l k. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball at the center of modern federal food. Regulations is one of America's favorite foods. Peanut butter in the nineteen fifties. Many companies were doctoring their recipes with untested additives, Ruth Desmond, Washington area. Homemaker decided to fight back and she changed the way. Food is regulated here in America reporter Chrissy Clark produced a three part series on the peanut butter wars for marketplace. And she's here today to tell us the story of the peanut butter grandma Chrissy how are you? I'm great. Thank you. So this all starts the late fifties. People are manufacturing peanut butter. That's not all peanuts, right? Yeah, often in significant amounts, not peanuts at one point in the nineteen fifties, right after Jif came out. These rumors started popping up that there were in certain batches of Jeff, at least only seventy five percent peanuts and then other. Spacious ingredients making up the difference. So is that the percentage is a problem or the quote, unquote, suspicious ingredients? What what if the rest of the ingredients were perfectly healthy, wonderful things? Does it really matter? Well, I think that is a big question that a lot of folks were debating at the time the the ingredient in question that I think raised a lot of alarm bells was crisco. There was actually in the the factory formula. At the Jif plant, it was up to twenty percent crisco in peanut butter and for some consumers. This was a shock and some folks described it as it was tantamount to having peanut flavored cold cream. John really doesn't hydrogenated vegetable doesn't sound like a great concept. So the consumer reaction was fairly substantial. Could you just tell us about it and how did it happen? Why did it happen and how upset where people? Yeah, will it all comes down to this one woman named Ruth Desmond who had started an organization a few years earlier in the fifties called the federation of homemakers. Here's Ruth Desmond's daughter, Janet swatter. She said, that's terrible. They want to make money industry by putting less and less peanuts in the peanut butter and its children that are eating these peanut butter sandwiches mostly. And here this just peanut flavored coal cream. Ruth Desmond was a homemaker herself a very spirited, very determined woman. And so she got really interested in this issue. She started reading up on a lot of the. Science just about food in general and food additives in general when her husband got sick with ladder cancer, and she was trying to figure out what had happened and wanted to be feeding him healthy food. This was a time in American history where food was really transforming that was after World War Two and the two biggest industries coming out of World War Two where the food industry and the chemical industry and they joined forces. And so there was a lot of stuff that was showing up in our foods that either people weren't aware that it was in there or if they did know they didn't know what it meant. And so one day when she was prowling the halls of the FDA she ran across this notice that mentioned that they were proposing a standardized definition for peanut butter. And when she discovered that, what had prompted this was that some peanut butter companies big peanut butter companies had put a lot of this hydrogenated veg. Oil into the jars of peanut butter that she was buying. She was shocked. So she had a newsletter that she would circulate among homemakers and a flood of consumer comments started coming into the FDA hundreds, literally hundreds of letters. Here's Janet. Again, he said, I will tell everything I will get all the facts, and I will blab it to everybody because everyone needs to be an informed. So she called herself on the Lert her and that's what she got. And that's what was in our newsletter, you know, telling people all the hearings and what was going on and the bills in congress. She put it in her newsletter and get the word. So one of the things you pointed out is that from the FDA's point of view, this was a labelling issue. In other words, if you're just honest about what's in it, it's okay and Ruth, I think, had a different point of view. She didn't want stuff other than peanuts peanut butter. So. The FDA still dealing with regulation in terms of truth in advertising in the label more so than what's actually in the bottle. Well, one of the big things that the FDA was tasked by congress with doing was promoting honesty and fair dealing in the interest of consumers when it came to food. And so that covers a lot of things. But one of those is that labels should be truthful and mislabeling something is a crime. And then there's also this idea of adulteration like don't be putting things into food to to change its content or to make it seem like it is something that it's not. Those are kind of broad and open to interpretation those terms, but a lot of what the FDA does now and what it was doing back in the time of these peanut butter wars was trying to figure out how to promote honesty and fair dealing in the interest of consumers when it came to these complicated and weedy question. Of how many peanuts should there be in peanut butter? And should it be one hundred percent peanuts? Or if not then where should the line be drawn? And that quickly becomes an existential question, even if you think it's a really simple question at the beginning. Well, it's a good point because you can't make much money selling commodity products, right? But you can. You can make money if you have a patented branded product that has a secret formula like coke or Kentucky Fried Chicken, right. I mean, that's the whole point of this is it adds value, makes it harder for people to compete against you. You can charge more money, right? Well, and for Jif, a consumer might see putting a lot of crisco into peanut butter as unadulterated in. But for Jeff, this was this was an innovation and this was their competitive advantage because there was this age old issue that peanut butter has right of it sticks to the roof of your mouth. It's really hard to stir if you have the old fashioned kind for peanut butter. Sellers, they kind of saw this as this this roadblock that was keeping peanut butter from becoming as popular as it could be because it took it took effort to have to figure out how to keep it spreadable or it would go rancid quickly. So when hydrogenated oils and partially hydrogenated oils came on the scene, there was this sense that they could make a smoother more spreadable product. And people seem to really like that. Let's play a clip from the series here. Never begin peanut butter until nineteen thirty three when any kind of here in grocery store. So you're something interesting. The food safety act nineteen hundred six was arsenic and hard candies. Copper sulfate and pickles turn green borax and lots of things. So that happened in the beginning of the twentieth century and now half a century later, we seem to be going through this whole thing again is that because of the advances in chemistry and science were now instead of just adding copper sulfate to make pickles, green people could do much more interesting things to create much more profitable product. Yeah, I was just reading about these looming fights at the FDA over the definitions of other foods, like meat, like what actually is meat. And as we've been reading those articles of, you know that now you can make meet based out of plant race to be right plant based me more humane meat. I think there are there are some folks, meat producers who are like, wait a minute, don't call that meet like you can. You can make it, but that's not meet. So yeah, we, we think of this in some ways as these these new fights that are happening because of the innovation that's happening right now. But every moment in history, there's been some sort of innovation and people been grappling with this since the fifties and before. So this is a fight. We're just going to continue to have because science muddies the definition between what is meat and what our eggs and that was something nobody had to fight about fifty years ago. There was no choice. Right, right. Yeah. So we keep coming up with new ways and it's balancing sort of innovation with precaution. So in the peanut butter wars, Ruth, Desmond and the federation of homemakers, one of the FDA to set a standard that peanut butter contains ninety five percent peanuts in the end. The standard was set at ninety percent. All right. Let's play a short clip from the end of your series where roofs call for caution regarding food additives resonates in a very real way in the last few years. Skippy and Jif have phased out partially. Hydrogenated oil because as Kevin Myers of Skippy explained to me partially hydrogenated oil has some level of trans fat. Trans fats are are implicated in artery potential artery clogging artery clogging that's linked to heart disease. So switching away from the partially hydrogenated, eliminating the trans fat possibility in the product was very important. I asked Kevin, if he thinks in retrospect, maybe the higher standard that Ruth Desmond and the FDA had originally called for the ninety, five percent peanuts would have been better so that the amount of partially hydrogenated oil and trans fats would have been limited in peanut butter. Long ago was becoming a twenty twenty hindsight of what has happened over the years. The limiting those to at least a a lower level probably would have been a good approach to have at that point in time. Yes, of course. Ruth Desmond's point. Was let's not wait for twenty twenty hindsight. Let's err on the side of precaution to begin with. So as they FDA's approach to this changed since then, you think or they're doing this the the same dance between the lobbyists and the FDA. I think the dance continues and consumers have gotten a lot more vocal. I think Ruth Desmond, what was what was so cool about the peanut butter grandma is that she was one of the first examples of really just sort of an everyday consumer. She wasn't a lawyer. She wasn't someone who was was trained to do this, but who started to pay attention and do her research and get really engaged in this process and wanted to carve out a space for the everyday consumers voice. Here's Ruth Desmond's daughter, Janet. Again, the others would sit quietly. They didn't talk. Mother did all the talking, but they would sit there and agree with everything and look very elegant and grandmotherly. And when the industry lawyers. Said something particularly enraging to the homemakers believes would give them a look. We used to call it the Harry eyeball. Do them at at at proper intervals? Yes. And what happened to Ruth Desmond? The peanut butter grandma that she go on and continue this life of consumer action. She went on to talk about different additives in baby food and various hormones that were put in in meets she was a lifelong consumer advocate, and she died in her eighties, and I think she was fighting up until the end. Thank you so much. That's a well. It's not an unusual story, but it's a good reminder that some things never change. Thank you so much. Of course. That was Christie Clarke, senior wealth and poverty correspondent marketplace. Her series on the peanut butter wars was originally produced for the uncertain. Our a podcast, she hosts for marketplace. You know, there's nothing new about adulterated foods from copper sulfate and pickles for bright green colored to using borax preservative food manufacturers have long delta rated foods to increase profits. But in today's era, there is a twist Panara. For example, once the FDA to define an egg as an egg, not is some processed version of acres. So finally, the food and restaurant industries see the profit motive in selling pure natural foods. So it's a bit early to declare victory, but at least one restaurant chain is acting like a good egg. Right now I'm heading into the kitchen milk street. The chat with Lynn Clark about this week's recipe. When are you? I'm great. Chris, not too long ago. We had a couple on our radio show me ruin vich. They have a restaurant in Vancouver called villages. They've had it for many years, and we enjoyed the interviews so much. We actually went there to cook with them. And one of the things we love is there yellow split pea curry. So we brought the recipe back here and you did some work with. So this is a great week night meal. It takes only about an hour. A lot of that is hands off time not allowed to prep to it. It has two components. We're going to simmer some yellow split peas in water with tumor, Eric, salt and Cayenne. And then the other part is the base of the curry, which is the masala Masao is just a bunch of spices essentially. That's right. So in this case, we start with onions Mira really stressed the importance of the onions here, and we cook them for about fifteen minutes until they're golden Brown. So that really adds a lot of sweetness to the dish. And we use a combination of fresh whole spices and ground spices. Here. So fresh salawah stems in ginger whole cumin, coriander in yellow mustard seeds, and then to Moroccan Cayenne. And that just gets cooked together for about thirty seconds till you can kind of smell those spices, nor I love about this is the here in America, vegetables and lagoons or kind of bland. They weren't like the centerpiece. All you have to do is look to India, for example. And then you have the spices and all of a sudden, this is as good as eating a steak. I mean, it has a tremendous amount of flavor. That's right. It's got a lot of flavor. It's a great vegetarian dish. We add a little bit of tomato at the end. Add those yellow split peas to the dish. Those are really thick and creamy. You serve it over rice with cucumber pickles and yogurt. You can as they do in visions restaurant, they add a fried egg on the top to make it kind of a more complete meal. But really, this is so flavorful and filling that you you don't really need. The frog is going to go on everything in about five years. So yellow split pea curry. It's main course dish for Tuesday night. Thank you, Lynn. You're welcome. Chris. I'm Christopher Kimball. You're listening to milk street radio coming up more of your culinary questions with my co host Sara Moulton after the. Here milk state, we just published our latest cookbook called Tuesday nights. These additions that for the big flavors of Saturday but are quick enough for mid week. Suppers Vietnamese. Meatball wraps Jinja soy steak. Paprika pork tenderloin. Perry period chicken thighs over photo pages with two hundred recipes all in full color in a beautiful hard bound edition. You can order your copy of most Tuesday nights for just twenty three ninety five thirty percent discount off the cover price of thirty five dollars. Please go to Tuesday nights book dot com. That's a thirty percent discount off the cover price at Tuesday night's book dot com. This is military radio. I'm your host Christopher Kimball. Now it's time to answer some questions from our listeners. I'm here with my co host Sara Moulton, Sarah, are you awake? Are you ready to go, Chris? I am ready to do this. Welcome mill who's calling. Hi. My name is Rachel. Hi, Rachel. How can we help you today? Well, I was purchasing, you know, recipes on various websites and I ran across a recipe on website. I like a lot that sort of specializes in sort of healthy, California style food, the called for Takao powder. And then when I looked at it, it seems like it's cocoa powder but not roasted and I couldn't quite figure out what the difference is in terms of tastes mostly. I mean, I read up and I, it's, I guess, people like they figure if it's cow, it has enzymes. They get killed off and the roasting process or something. Takao powders. Just cold pressed, cocoa beans that are not roasted as opposed to CoCo, which is roasted beans that are turned into powder. Of course, the fat is removed as well. I've looked it up actually. Once someone said, you have to use more Dutch process cocoa than cash cow powder because cap hat or may be stronger tasting, but I, I've never tested it. I would try one to one, but I would think the cold press is going to be stronger flavor. Yeah, I would imagine isn't that a good thing. Yeah. Experiment with it just for fun in please get back to us. We like the follow up. Okay. Well, I have some cacao powder in my pantry, so I will make something and let you know how it comes out. I will. Thanks. Bye bye. Welcome to milk street. Who do we have on the line? Brandon Heineken. Hi Brendan. How can we help you today? Hi. From green coffee beans from a friend of mine, and I just don't know what to do with them. I tried roast them 'cause that's what I needed to do. He didn't really know what to do either. So I tried to swirling run in pan for a while and they kind of started letting off these real papery skins sort of thing. And it seemed to go from green in color to burn. That's what they do. Chris, you've done this about ten years ago. I went through this whole process because I love coffee, and I bought a number of different roasters sort of popcorn Popper or the their air rated and they, they go up in the air and swirl around. I did the rotating drum roaster the more expensive one and here the problems. First of all, a lot of smoke. So you have to do it underneath a hood of some kind. City apartment. Secondly, I found that every batch of beans had a different roasting time and temperature, and so it's very complicated to get it. Roast Reich is otherwise some of them burn and some of them are green. It's problem. And then at the end of the day, I discovered that when I make coffee, it wasn't any better. Then actually was worse than beans. I could just buy at the local lamb or may place. So I think the problem is you need a professional expensive roasting machine to get even roasting, and you have to get the timing just right to get the roasting the flavor, right. And the good thing about Greenpeace's they hold, you know, they can keep them in the freezer or something for a long time. I never had much luck. These things are expensive and there's a huge amount of smoke given off. So I really wanted to make this work, but I just go well, yeah, I mean, and also the quality of the green beans you're buying. That's a different issue to south. I think buying roasted not. Round beans, and there's so many good suppliers out there right now. That's easy way to well unless Brennan kinda guy who likes to get involved in long projects, growth, one, that kind of stuff. I've only got a couple of pounds of these green beans. I don't think it's worth the investment. Go crazy. You didn't. Hoping to maybe do just sort of like in a pan or something. Hundred dollars and get a rose. After about the second hand, you know, popcorn Popper you know to thrift store, it might be worth it. I do find now versus ten years ago, my local place. There's like ten different kinds of beans, and you can get really good beans and make great coffee. The other thing I find is I like lighter rose light to medium roast getting the the roast, just right with these things is also a little tricky tricky. So anyway, there you go. Thank you so much. Okay, Brandon. Thanks for calling extra calling. There. This is mostly radio. I'm your host Christopher Kimball. Please give us a ring. The numbers eight, five, five, four to six ninety four three eight five five, four to six, nine eight, four, three or send us an Email at questions at milk street, radio dot com. Welcome to milk street who's calling. Hi, this is Dan Eoghan, Casey, how can we help you today? Okay. So you know, I love to be in the kitchen, love the cook. My one weakness I think is with desert the one problem that I have with desserts happens to deal with the frosting and the icing, the decoration presentation. All of that. I try a lot of recipes at home for my own frosting and icing, but they never seem to work for the icing. Tried that powdered sugar with milk and vanilla thing. It always comes out runny gloppy gooky and then I try the cream cheese. One in the mixer also doesn't look what happens to the cream cheese one. It never really become spreadable. Like I always even though I keep it at room temperature, I always feel like it's still clumps up and never has a great consistency. And the taste is always just not there. So how can I make really good frostings in ice things at home? I agree with you. Powdered sugar icing pretty off. Yeah, really? Sometimes you can like orange juice to it or something. But I, I don't orange. They never turn out now. I don't like him chocolate frosting always works nicely because the chocolate cools it sets up. I like it Italian meringue or Swiss meringue, which means you beat egg whites, and then you heat up sugar and get a sugar hot sugar syrup. Like at two thirty nine to forty, the temperature doesn't actually matter that much and then you drizzle it on the white center beating them in the mixer for about two three minutes. And that gets you a nice, fluffy frosting. That'll hold nicely just straight meringue a day or so. It's not that hard to do, but do you have another? No, I was just gonna say the boiled frosting which is sort of similar valves, egg whites, which is sugar water egg whites vanilla and cream of tartar. But the thing about the Italian. So you add the sugar syrup to the whites. There's also the Swiss where you heat up the sugar in f- whites in it about one sixty. Those are a little tricky. You want an easier recipe for frosting is sue. That's where I would prefer to start. Kind of build it. My confidence then start working with something a little bit more advanced, the cream cheese frosting though. That's gonna give you a good texture, and that's going to hold really well to. Okay. And I wonder if maybe that's more technique issue with me and not maybe really knowing how to work with my of a hand mixer or stand mixer standing exter- in what happened. You said it was just the texture was to stiffer. It's like the cream cheese still stayed kind of clumpy. How long did you leave the cream cheese at room temperature before you made the frosting? Maybe an hour to an hour and a half. Well, the only thing I can suggest is take the cream cheese out, cut it into pieces, not let it sit and let that sit at room temperature for hour and a half. I think it just feels sounds to me like the cream cheese was still too cold because that's what would happen if it was too cold or wooden, get smooth and a wooden beat up properly. But I would say that's your go-to frosting because that's easy. It'll hole. Old, you know, these Swiss them in Italian meringues. Don't hold the next day very well. They are. And they are tricky, can they are tricky and the powdered sugar thing is just I don't think it's just awful tastes pretty awful. So. I would go back to the cream cheese frosting. Is there Sarah's there Jean enersen book or some other book, Nick Mel, Jerry would be a good one. MA l. g. i. e. r. I try that. I think the cream cheese frosting is the way to go right temperature right temperature, right. Thank you for calling. Yes. Okay, bye bye. Bye. This is military radio. I'm Christopher Kimball right now. It's time for this week's milk street basic. This was supposed to basic is how to toast your spices in a Skillet, the Chinese way in China, they toast spices with salt. This makes it harder for the spices to burn because assault insulates spice isn't of course, the spices flavor the salt. So here's how it works. Combine the salt and use whole spices by the way from the recipes ingredient lists in a small skeleton and toast over medium heat until era Matic and the spices are lightly. Browned process in spice grinder. Then proceed as directed in the recipe accounting, of course, for the addition of the extra salt. Dr. Carol is professor of pediatrics at Indiana University school of medicine. Also a regular contributor to the times upshot com. Dr, Aaron, Carol, how are you? I'm good. How are you? Are you gonna brighten my day or dark in my day. I think it'll be a combination. So I thought we might talk about a recent study that appeared in the journal of the American Medical Association that is supposed to answer once and for all which was better for us or for losing weight, a low fat versus low carb diet and cut right to the chase. The answer is it just doesn't matter. This was a huge study of over six hundred people. All of whom were overweight or obese who were randomized pretty full year and you nutrition studies a full year is an eternity, but they were randomized for a full year either to be on a low fat diet or a low carbohydrate diet with the idea of being, let's just see once and for all which of these works better. And they had plenty of education. They had plenty of help. They stuck in these diets for a full year. There was lots of follow up to see if they were sticking to it. At the end of the day, they did differ significantly and what nutrients. They were eating. The low carb group was definitely lower in carbs. The low fat group was definitely lower in fats. And at the end of the day, the differences in the weight loss was was really not different at all. I mean, it was they both lost weight overall, which is great about five to six kilos double that to see how many pounds it is, but it didn't make a difference. And given how much people argue about what is the best diet, it is good to know that look, they both seem to work a little, but but that the really isn't a difference in that we shouldn't get so hung up on that. One of these nutrients is the bad thing for us, his anyone done a study of not what type of diet, but whether the entire notion of a diet is really practical in the long run. I mean, do people, you know, some of these TV shows they come back here later in the game back. A lot of the weight is a diet, something people can actually affectively stay on for a reasonable. Like five or ten years? Is anyone ever studied that up? They have and well, I mean, I should. I was going to say they have right up until you said five or ten years because five or ten years? No. I mean, like there's no. We just don't do those kinds of studies. This study was interesting in that at least it tried to go a little bit further. So the first thing they did was that they advised everyone to eat less processed foods. They emphasized whole foods. They emphasized better diets in general, and but they didn't tell anybody restrict your calories. They just were interested in saying, can you shift away from carbs or could you shift away from fats? But here's the interesting part all of them without being given the message of, let's let's reduce the number of cows at all of them reduce their calories by about five to six hundred calories per day, an intake, and that was just in the message of think about what you're eating trying to get away from processed foods, be a bit more mindful about it. So there's some confirming evidence that. Trying to get people to think perhaps about what they are eating to to try to be more mindful about what they're consuming to. Maybe even get away from processed foods tends to drive us to diets that also have fewer calories, and that might be the component that makes us lose weight. Isn't there some other elements of this though? Which is that being in a study when you have support in other words or your community where you're eating communally? Isn't that support really the essential ingredient in all of this releasing? Wait, not just being mindful, it's hard to be mindful on your own. So maybe I think that there was initial contact originally, and then it sort of drifted off and you could be corrected it is the part about being in the study that makes a difference. But I do think that you're, you've hit the nail on the head. It's got to be slow, steady change. It's gotta be, you know, what can you do? What will you stick to? And of course, I've, I've advocated for a long time. The best diet is the one you can stick to. Necessarily the one you read in a book, it's whatever you can sustain over the long term. That's going to be the best view in the same way that when people ask me, what's the best exercise routine? I said, the one you will do every day or five days a week for the rest of your life. Not not that there's one for everyone. I also want to point. There was one more fascinating part of this study because I'm sure some of the listeners might bend have this question the tip of their tongue. One of the interesting things about this study was they actually even went so far and looked at people's genes because there's a lot of fads these days that say, certain people because of their genes are predisposed to be better on a low carb or a low fat diet, and they have a few genes that they've already identified as this has something to do with insulin absorption or that this one has something to do something else that these people have the genes that predispose them to a low fat diet or predisposes them to low carb diet. And there's a lot of businesses tester jeans and try to pick the diet for you will they actually ran those genetic studies and then looked at whether those people were more likely to lose weight on the low fat or the low carb diet. And it also made no difference. At all. They even this idea that somehow our genes are involved and the we could identify what people will do better with low carbon, low fat. That's not proving to be true either. And so all this fancy science that we keep bringing into play to try to come up with some magic solution as to find an easy way for people to lose weight or pick the best diet for them. Yet none of it appears to work and that we probably still, once again, have to get back to simple basics of what are the changes you'll make that are simple in your life that you can sustain over the long term to try to get to a healthier way. Unfortunately, all of this always comes down to self control, right? Well, actually, I find that personally over time, I think it's also how much are you willing to cook for yourself? I'm often baffled by people that I see who are willing to put in an hour hour and a half in the day, driving to the gym, changing their clothes, working out, all of the idea that this is somehow going to make them lose weight. When all the studies in the world show that it's not exercise, but but nutrition that is weight loss. But if I say, why don't you cook for. Yourself. I have no time, and if they would spend half that time in the kitchen learning to make food for themselves, they probably could do a lot more towards getting to a healthy weight and a healthier diet than then all of this effort in other areas. Man. That's great. Don't exercise cook. There you go Dutch, Aaron, Carol. Thank you very much. Thank you. That's it for this week show. You can listen to our podcast and I tune Stitcher tuning. Google play for Spotify. Please remember to subscribe to the show, you'll automatically get every single show downloaded to your phone or tablet each week. If you'd like to learn more about milk street police head to one, seven, seven milk street dot com. There you can download each week's recipe subscribe to our magazine, watch our television show in order our new cookbook. We'll be back next week and thanks for listening. Christopher Kimble's milk street. Radio is produced by milk street in association with WGN h executive producer, Melissa vaulting producer tristen Tamimi associate producer, Carly helmet, Todd production assistant, Jackie Nowak, senior audio engineer Douglas sugar, senior audio editor Melissa Allison with help from Vicky Merrick and Sydney. Lewis audio mixing by Jay Allison at Atlantic public media production help Debbie paddock theme music by to Bob Crewe additional music by George Brandel Edlow Christopher Kimble's milk street. Radio is distributed by the public radio extinct.

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The Ace of Cakes: Duff Goldman Bakes Up The Hogwarts Express

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

52:17 min | 1 year ago

The Ace of Cakes: Duff Goldman Bakes Up The Hogwarts Express

"No the modern kitchen is nothing like when I grew up with the choices of fixtures sinks lighting and major appliances are well overwhelming and. That's why whether you're planning your dream in kitchen or building your dream Home Ferguson. Bath kitchen enlightening gallery can help start by browsing the online inspiration. Gallery on Ferguson Showrooms Dot Com and then request an appointment with your local product expert and they work with designers builders and other trade professionals to meet your specifications while exceeding your expectations. VISIT FERGUSON SHOWROOMS DOT COM today to request your appointment. I this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading. This week's podcast. You can go DR website. One seven seven MILK STREET DOT COM to get recipes to stream or television show or to get our latest cookbook. Enjoy the show. This is most radio from corrects. I'm your host Christopher Kimball today. I'm chatting with Duff Goldman. Kevin Shop Charm city cakes Goldman and his crew take cake decorating to a whole new level when our kids like maybe we got a cake that was they cut out in like the silhouette of a little truck now parents and community. But I WANNA get a cement mixer truck and want to to actually spend and I want you to fill. Yeah that thing with Jelly beans that you push a button lifts jelly beans five newly okay. We can do that also coming up. We share a recipe for Ancho Chili. Chilli Sauce Aroha J.. Ken Lopez all digs into the science of no need does and now. It's my interview with so he Kim Chef and owner incident in Brooklyn. Kim's is new book is called Korean home cooking so he how are you. I'm really well thank you. You went to Barnard. I went to Columbia. Oh Hugh did and you worked with Dan Barbara Blue Hill and you have a Korean barbecue and carry Oak Restaurant So here's the question. Everybody everybody has. Is that if you have a karaoke restaurant to karaoke room. How many people are actually good singers? Like you have to listen right so so. Is this really in full time or are there some really good singers coming to the restaurant. There's some fabulous thing is but that was an absolute concern of mine so we basically said we definitely have to make sure whether there's good singers or bad singers out there that we make it sound proof so so there's some great singing back there but I you know I have to tell Elia. I've heard some pretty pretty amazing voices up there. That are not so nice to hear voices. Yeah yes so. There are places in the world South Korea being one of them. We're the American military. Obviously he's had a great presence and and things like spam and ice cream have become popular. So you actually have a recipe for homemade spam which. I'm not seeing any more so so talk to me. About spam spam spam the United States as the different image shall we say maybe spam and other places in the world sure so growing up in Korea. I lived there until the age of ten. They there was a lot of influence From the American culture by way of the the US Marine and army and in terms of food. And what's on the table for dinner. My mother would get a couple of cans of spam and she would Slice it up really thin and And sometimes simply pan fry it in batter of egg egg or she would take little dice of spam And put it in say Kimchi stew and so it was kind of ubiquitous but it was one tasted. I didn't enjoy and it just didn't quite in my opinion in my young opinion didn't fit really well too. What a traditional Korean dinner means means So as a as a grown adult you know and I knew the history of of our small country that is a peninsula. I understood exactly how it all sort of came together and fast forward to opening INSA. I'm a trained chef and you get to a certain age where you take certain things like. That's already processed and canned and jarred and made and you and you sort of tackle it on as a challenge as a professional challenge. Why can't we make a spam that that is better than spam that's deeply philosophical and also you know it's far basically that you making and you're steaming in a container owner and it actually was much easier than I thought it was going to be without all the additives that I feel like gets in the way you also have in your book this great photograph of of teach you how to Cook Rice? So how do you cook rice. And what is your basic method within knuckles in the water. The basic method is that you rinse the rice as you. Would you know when a view make rice and then you you cover the rice with enough water and so if you put your hand very flat get on top of the rice. The water should come right up to your knuckles now. If you have a really really giant hands it will not work but if you have relatively normal hands it does work. It does work and also it sort of relies on also cooking based on intuition and end And just really using your senses to know when something is done when something is is done right soy marinated seven-minute seven-minute eggs Talk about this. So that's just a fun way that I used to eat eggs when I was little. I do fess up up somewhere in the cookbook that I was a picky eater that they used to call me the egg monster kid on Shen. Because I wouldn't eat dinner lunch breakfast unless it had eggs on the table and We went to visit some family members in the south. And that's how they did it. They produce some amazing soy sauce. They made it themselves themselves and they just hard boil some eggs and then they just put it in there to color and it just gives it that you mommy just mommy packs snack basically But I I thought to do it. A soft soft boil because that Yoki tenderness it just goes so nicely so bond. Sean aren't essence a a series of plates. That's right mezzanine. Small plates but it is what it sort of the leading charge of a Korean dinner table. Bon John. I would I always like to say that that is sort of the fundamentals of Korean cooking. The Home Cook. You know whether it's a mother a dad cooking a meal for the family. You just make a whole bunch of Bon John. You know very much like Sunday how you would cook for. The rest of the meal is very similar to that. You take on these various projects and you have something that is pickled something that is say soy stewed. Something that is fresh like a you know watercress narmer something that is stir fried and they're basically to call them exactly. The side dishes is not correct because to me they're sort of center stage and so you would have like a plethora of choices of bunch on in the middle of the table. And then you have your individualize small bowl of rice and then you have your little stew or soup and then everything else is sort of is up for grabs so you share. The bond chance to is very much a communal dining experience. And I talk about how you could always tell like you know if mother has a favorite child because you know that mother mother would then take various bond. John sort of out of that child's region put it on that rice the showing love and favoritism and also bon. John is a way to to figure out if you're a special guest or not if they put out one or two or three. Then you know they're like you a little bit but if you put out the work saying like twelve plus little you know bond John's on the table then though you're being treated well so you said favouritism so with family with lots of kids was their favouritism with with the kids. Or you just mean a child versus adult. I would say favor to them. If you you know mostly I have three other siblings. So there's four of us. There's basically the three sisters. I'm the third of the girls and my my youngest brother is a boy and my grandma foreshore was show favoritism. Like if there's whole fish on the table you know she would like debone. The fish with their top six and put like a big hunk of meat on my brothers played in like she'll put it a little a bit but I still love her. There's still a little resentment there though I mean there's a little but I dedicate the book to my grandmother. You know she's she's of her times and I excuse it but if you were to come over for dinner I would make make twenty plus bunch on for you Chris. I'm looking for at least five. You'll get more again moving so you spend it's been a real pleasure and thank you for joining winning a son Millstream thank you so much for having meals a pleasure that was so he kim author of Creon home. Cooking radio's available anytime anywhere podcast. You can subscribe on Apple podcasts. Stitcher or wherever you get your podcast. Yes it's time to answer your cooking questions with my co-host Sara Moulton Series Of course starve Sara's weeknight meals on public television. Also the author of the Book Home Cooking Komo one Sarah. Are you ready to go. I am ready to take those questions. Walk into most street WHO's calling I'm Lane Abrahams. I'm fine thank you. How are you pretty good? How can we help you? Well the market that we go to often doesn't have the bread that we like so when they're on the shelf we buy it up and then for better for worse we get home. It goes right into the freezer first day of keeping. Then we need did it. We'd take a little bit of the freezer. Put into the frigerator where we use it when it comes out. There's often quite a bit of ice crystals inside the bag. Now I noted at that ice comes from the humidity from the bread but what I wonder is if I am to the east side of the bag. The bread ends up kind of dry but if I leave the is in the bag gets in the fridge it melts and it can make the bread soggy. So what's the right thing to do before you put the bread in the freezer. Take it out baggage. Came in and double wrap it tightly. I would be mice in plastic. Wrap in a beaver foil. How do you eat the bread? You just like take off chunks or do you slice it it sandwich bread. Oh you know you might even WanNa try popping in the oven just to reheat it a little bit not to cook it but just it's sort of restores restores its moisture making a sandwich. I know it's kind of a bother for making sample making lunches around the house. Ten Times twelve pushups heat up and then make the sandwich all right. There was just did caramelized onions for forty five minutes this weekend. I think that's a good thing. I -gree with Chris Rapid better. That's really the problem tightly in twice. Yeah twice yeah. We're just thinking come home from the market. I Wanna get everything put away. But that's a it'd be the right thing to you do. Yeah because there is air in that bag in between the loose baggy and the bread. And that's where you get all that moisture so we think isis more coming from the air rather than coming out of the bread read the moisture is coming out of the bread into the bag into the air and then crystallizing cow so we if you wrap it tightly. You're not going to get as much of that going back the day in the bread. Yes okay we'll try that and the make your sandwiches on toast. I do the same thing I do from Brady is the same thing you do because you buy teasing it. Only the last few days toasted for a sandwich and I think the toasting does help and you made fun of me. No I just heat the oven. Uh for twenty minutes I just throw it in a toast. Okay so so I can still make fun of you so double APP and you should be fine. We'll try that okay. All right thanks for calling. Thank you welcome to milk street. Who's is going? This is Gail Kovacs. How can we help you today? My husband is from Germany and recently went back to Germany and we had the experience in a wonderful wonderful restaurant. having Frankfort Green Sauce with Schnitzel dish and we both fell off with it and a lot of the herbs that are used just because they're apparently is at least seven each one are things that number one it never heard of. I don't know where to buy so I was hoping you might be able to help me with that. was just like a Salsa Verde it was olive oil with herbs. It's actually a fairly creamy sauce. My Wife's grandmother was Austrian and and she used to serve the sauce and it was based on a special meal. I believe actually flour and butter and then adding milk and I asked her if there was a salsa verde and she was quite indignant that actually had dairy. That's the way hurt she did. It wasn't a hot or cold sauce. I think it was room temperature. You had it on Schnitzel. Yes could have been a creme fresh take off but actually I think the issue we're talking about here are the herbs yet dillard's one of them In the needed Parsley chives pimpernel. Borish Cheryl Anne Sorelle. Let me ask you question what you liked about. The sauce was is what exactly the cream of it or the herb profile. Well that's interesting because the community of it and that slavery went well with the dish that we were served. We didn't know enough about what was in it to say that. Oh Jeez the barrage really made a difference. Yeah are there other herbs that are similar alert to that that are more generally available if we can't find these and if we can't find them locally are they available dry and could those be. Somehow some AH herbs two groups said of the Base Parsley Base Basil's Abass etc and then the sharper more pungent aromatic herbs. URBS Tarragon thyme deal also would be great. I think what's good about the sauces. There's a cream meanest to it but there's a sharpness to it as as well so I get parsley as a base is always a good start and two or three other more punch nerves. I would make it when you can go to farmers marketer when you grow it but I I wouldn't end up spending fifteen dollars on five packages of herbs from the supermarket right for the sorrel. Add Lemon juice for your cream. I would use creme fraiche which you can boil so you could heat it up throw in the fresh herbs maybe saute up some shallots or something I throw in the creme fraiche throw in the fresh herbs. CBS Add salt and pepper. And you might have something. That vaguely comes near to what you enjoyed okay. Well that's really helpful. Thank you so much okay and not dried or dried the rider care except for a few I think Rosemary and timer fine but this is all about fresh herbs so all right thank you for calling okay but the most radio if you have a great kitchen mystery. That's waiting to be solved. Give us a call. Eight five five four to six nine eight four three. That's eight five five five four two six nine eight four three or email us at questions at mill street radio DOT COM. Welcome to milk street. WHO's on the line? It's Kate calling from youthful southwest Florida. Hi Kate from southwest Florida. How can we help you today? Well I'll tell you realize blueberries at our house and we also smoothies. The thing is that when we put blueberries into smoothies almost immediately. It's a mixture gels and it's very unpleasant texture. So I don't know why that happens. It doesn't happen with other fruits and I also don't know how to fix it. That's happened to me with blueberries. Also well back when I was starting to cook in the seventies when you were just ten knows forty. I know I used to make this horrible desert living on a farm so I picked fresh berries and put them in a blender with some fruit and just whip it up and put that in a class of some kind of it was okay except the blueberries did really gel as opposed to raspberries or other things. So that's true. They contain a lot of Pectin. Are these really ripe blueberries or sort out of ripe blueberries carton. You really had a choice when you go to. The supermarket is just what it is the less ripe the fruit the more pectin. There isn't Senate actually now. We have to get to the solution part of the call. Sarah I know I've had luck re peering them so giving it the second shot you know. After it set up throw it back in the blender and do it again and maybe add a little extra liquid and see what happens. Is this a blueberry smoothie. Were the only fruit route other than let's say. Banana is blueberry or is this a mix of fruits. Are we often Ed Bananas. Yeah Yogurt well the other thing to do is it. Just mix it with one other fruit and use half as many blueberries that would solve that problem okay. Well 'cause I wondered if I could add acids maybe some lemon juice or something. Although I have a really we try that. I think it actually isn't GonNa Stop Joan I've made with buttermilk which is very acidic and it's still sets up so I think just blended get some more or use less of it like Christus suggested with more other fruits but if anything works would you please let us know. Kathy sure that would be so nice. Yeah yeah I I think a little more liquid but also give it another world in the food processor okay. I'll do that. Thanks so much guys okay and this is most your radio. I'm Christopher up next my interview in Pastry Chef and television personality Duff Goldman right after the break. How would you like to take a private cooking? Class in the likes of Gordon Ramsay Wolfgang Puck. Or maybe even Thomas Miss Keller or maybe you want to know something about comedy from Steve Martin or the art of magic from Penn and teller or maybe aboard were course on investigative journalism awesome. Well now you can online at your own pace using masterclass they have over sixty classes and new ones are added all the time. You can take classes on your phone. Tablet Apple Television Asian or computer and at approximately ten to fifteen minutes in length. masterclass lessons can fit into any schedule. Plus they have a thirty day money back guarantee when you sign up for an annual membership so I highly recommend that you check it out. Get Unlimited access to every master class and as a Christopher Kimble's most radio listen you get fifteen percent off the annual all access pass just go to masterclass dot com slash milk. One more time that's masterclass dot com slash. Josh M I L K for fifteen percent off masterclass. Most radio I'm Christopher Kimball. Deaf Goldman started started out as a graffiti artist and also a metal sculptor and then became a baker in two thousand two. He opened charm city cakes in Baltimore Maryland. His food network show ace of of cakes turned into a ten season. Hit Duff Reo. I'm doing really good. How `bout you good? I don't watch a lot of food. TV maybe that's true of a lot of people who do TV. I don't know but your stuff stands out man. I mean Pinball Machine K. Kung Fu Panda German shepherd hogwarts. Elvis a cat scan machine. I'll have to ask about that later. DNA Strand. That's pretty cool So you you started out cooking In Baltimore you went to the Culinary Institute of America. You worked at the French laundry. So wh what is it about cakes aches rather than savory cooking The clearly appeal to you. Well you know it's a good question I was actually actually my first sort of art. I was a graffiti artist. And then you know I couldn't do that anymore. Watch you're doing it right. Yeah yeah a couple a couple of times a couple of times so my mom and my my art teacher kind of got together. You have to do something. That's a little more legal a little less dangerous interest so I tried a bunch of different stuff. I eventually found metal. Sculpting was sort of my thing because it was the thing was it was like it still it was. It was still exciting. You know Kinda Kinda like Kinda like graffiti you know what I mean. It was still like this is cool. I could heard I could get burnt fun thing to do so. I was doing those things and so when I got to culinary school I took all the co theory that I that I learned doing graffiti and then all three d design that I learned doing mel sculpture. And it just made sense sakes just made sense. I was just sort of good at them. Let's go back to the graffiti so sure sure because I find that interesting. Is that just a function. I don't think it this is just a function of seeing your stuff on a subway car. Go by what's the attraction from purely artistic point of view what's really cool about about being a graffiti artist. Well I think back then if I had to sort of like give a reason for it back. I think that it's I the thing about graffiti is it's very competitive. You want your tag to be dope. You want your your murals to be dealt you want everything. It'd be amazing when other graffiti writers see your stuff like man. That guy is amazing right. That guy's really good. It's not really rebelling like you talked telegraphy ours. It's not about like sticking it to the man or doing what. You're not supposed to do anything like this is not what you do it That really doesn't come into it just so happens and that the best canvases for getting all over town and all over the city are trains. So how where would you paint on a train. There's a yard somewhere in the middle of the night. How did you figure that yeah? So there's there was a yard in braintree. I grew up on the Cape and Sandwich. So we'd go up to braintree break in paint trains hopefully be able to leave by the same holding offense that we made. Because if you're leaving any other way that means you're in the back of a cop car and you know because you are in the back of one if yeah yeah well sometimes they give you a choice you can either. You can either get arrested or this happened one time and I'll never do it again but you you can empty out all the paint you have on you onto yourself. What like yeah including in your face and your hair and everything and you just have to? You have to empty out all the paint that you have on yourself and then they'll let you leave you do that. You said you did that one. One one time time. One time it was the worst. It was the worst breathing in so much pain. It was super gross. I did kind of like the wild west man so you start charm city cakes in Baltimore and then you end up with a sub cakes. So is the better for the cake just a standard yellow. Oh cake mix of some kind that you've come up with or is it a more structural customized cake. Mix of some kind well. It's it's just a recipe but put that recipe is not made for being structure. It's not made for its firmness or anything like that. It's just made to taste good so so when you did a cat scan machine cake you could dig in eat. That cake and it would be delicious. What would be the point if it wasn't I want die and in what would be the point? Why do it you know like like you know you see a Lotta people they they you know they make like you know they're making things quote unquote cakes but it's is just styrofoam covered in modeling chocolate which is super cool and they're amazing artists? They're really great artists. But it's not a cake something you eat now there's also like like PVC pipe and motors and lasers and stuff. It's all part of it but at the end of the day. You're supposed to eat that thing so take me through the stages as of this you started with a regular cake when you were young. Probably right your family but what was the first step away into something more improvisational or something being more creative like it was funny like when I went to school I wanted to be like a hotshot pastry chef in New York City. You know what I mean like. I want to be banging pans and really cool restaurants cake. Decorating was not what I wanted to do. Like and Like even when we did it in school the teachers like Dude. If you're good that you should you should pursue it and I was like yeah. It's just I don't know just not for me now for me and then fast forward a little bit league worked at hotels or worked at restaurants trousers working all over the country. I moved back to Baltimore so I could be in a band and I got a job as a personal chef. You play Bass Bass so I got a job as a personal chef and then once my pants are really getting big enough that we were getting gigs. I quit that job and then to pay the rent. I'd start making cakes in apartment so I was selling cakes like I'm built a website stole a bunch of pictures from other awesome cake. Decorators put him on my website and and then and then every time somebody would call. Hey can I get that. That yellowcake with the with the Brown Stripe on it with the Blue Flower A- Gesher then I make it and then I take take the picture down that I stole and I put put up the picture of the one that actually made. I wasn't trying to like open a cake shop. I was just trying to you know. Pay The rent until I became rockstar. which was any day now any day? Now it's going to happen and it's still anytime any day now. So so how do you go okay. Now we're going to now. We're going to get any cakes again. So how do you take me through three or four sort of cool things. You figured out about making cakes like to make a huge cake. What is it you figured out? That took time to figure out. Measure the door of the van before indicate. What like dopes road in your garage right? Yes right exactly well. I don't know there's a couple couple things like one I think I honestly I think Mike my my coolest discovery I think was when when I figured out how to create hyper realistic wood. Grain on funding is that you're talking about the color or the actual grain itself just creating wood grain just creating would grain pattern on the outside of a cake. And how do you do. There's this way so so what you do is you know fond is mostly asleep. Sugar and sugar is hygroscopic. It's sucks up water and so we do you make whatever you know. Whatever color would've and then take a big wide soft paintbrush and you just get it on the cake just painted you go in the same direction you know just like if you were painting a house I know up and down opened up paint defense right same thing up and down up and down? You can't go side and then you get the whole cake wet and then you just chill you. Just sit there for like twenty five seconds and what happens is the sugar in funded starts second up the moisture out of the paint. So what happens is when the the sugar and the water mix it becomes kind of syrupy and sticky right. And you get this like super thin layer of stickiness on the outside of the Dan. You hit it again with the paintbrush and instead of being like a dislike really smooth action. Because you're painting something wet on top of something dry you're actually sliding sliding something sticky and as you're sliding something sticky depending on how much pressure using so you put like really light pressure. You're going to get a really lightweight grain. Little bit more pressure. And you're going to get sort of like a thicker looking grain like more with there would be like a not and then so by alternating and just you're regulating. How how hard you're pushing on the brush and how much time you've let the paint set? You can create any kind of wood grain. You want so you had the cake. Have the charm armstead cakes in Baltimore so with some strange requests from people coming into the store. Yeah totally so the cat scan one. You're talking about. There's not a lot of photographs of that one because because the guy that ordered it he wanted a patient stuck inside of it. which actually that you actually do that? Yeah Yeah but it was actually easier to do with the body in it because without the body we've done without the body to there's a whole there and so that's it's difficult to do creating a whole cake cake doesn't want to do that so you've got to figure out how to support a cake. That is not baked to be structural but his big to be delicious so do is it. Are there rules like you're not allowed to use like building a building foundation. Use Rebar right it. Can you use the equivalent of rebar. Doing a cake or everything has to be edible. Is there a rule you have to use things like you can like there are are people that are pure us out. There that are cakes are supposed to be cake in frosting. And that's it. That's all you're allowed to use and those people make you know cool looking cakes but when you say listen there are times when I need. PVC pipe or wood or styrofoam or metal or bolts. What's or you know a a housing for a transmission? You know those are all things that you know. When people are ordering cakes they want something super cool and things that have a motor in it that spins around super cool? Think about if you were a kid right like when our kids like maybe we got a cake that was like cut out in like the silhouette of a little truck. It would be cut out of a sheet cake. It'd be flat and be like Happy Birthday doc on the side of it now parents and come in and I wanNA get a cement. Thanks Chuck and I want the thing to actually spend and I want you to fill that thing with jelly beans so that you push a button and it lifts up jelly beans fall out of it and you're like okay. We can do that you know if I was a kid I gotTa dump truck that actually moved and then spilled jelly beans and to eat it. All that would be super cool. So Louis thing is let. Let's assume I don't know anything about making cakes and You come over for an hour and you're helping me out What are some other things you tell me about making cakes? You've learned. That would be helpful. Sure I think one is have a plan. It's really important Korneev plan. Write down what you're GONNA do. Maybe draw a little picture you know because most of the time if you just sit down with a bunch of frosting using in Katy Perry. I'm going to do this. It's just it looks okay. It looks okay but when you when you sit down to plan it out I feel like you tend to get more focused results. So is this a ellis. The of the decorations. What do you mean planet out? Yeah Yeah Yeah. You're just like okay. I'm going to put these hours here. I'M GONNA put this decoration here. I'M GONNA make discolor put this thing on top of it. You just have an idea of what it's GonNa in a look like before you start decorating cakes. Our Food and food supposed to be delicious right and foods off supposed to be beautiful but cakes. That is literally half of what you're doing is you're it's it's made to be looked at more so than food food. I mean now. Food is made to be instagram'd you know but like you know with case it's like you're really making something that is made to be looked at and that has to convey some sort of message something that somebody's trying to to say with the cake either happy wedding or happy birthday or happy anniversary or you're out of jail or whatever it is you know the cake has to sort of conveyed an idea of what whoever's giving into somebody to celebrate something you thought of one message to put on a cake welcome back. You're on parole. Okay Yeah I like dip your hand in the stream of consciousness. Yeah thank you so much. uh-huh oh thanks man. Thanks for that was pastry chef and television personality duff. Goldman no the most interesting part of Duff's life story is his career as a graffiti artist he wasn't rebelling. It's just the trains and underpasses presented him with the biggest possible possible canvases. Duff Goldman did pay the price however he was once caught and the police let him go if he simply poured paint all over himself. He did that once. And that's when he switched to baking after all it's legal and it tastes a lot better. Uh Right now. I'm heading into the kitchen street the chat with Catherine Smart about this week's recipe on show Chili Sauce Aurora Catherine Area Maria. I'm great Chris. How are you good? I just got back from Oaxaca and of course as soon as I go somewhere and come back again all excited and wanted to Bungee recipes. No thing I found was they. They had red sauces sauces or Malays depending and they were sort of the foundation of the cuisine. What was most interesting was it wasn't about heat? It was was about flavor. Chilies are there for flavor and these were not that hard to make so I thought we come back and make a red sauce Salsa Aroha here and see how hard would-be and to to make something that people could actually use it home in a variety of ways share crest so it is very easy. I will tell you that much. And the Salsa Aroha that we're making also really really versatile personal so we start by taking those Antilles and just toasting them up in a skillet takes just a couple of minutes till is dried poblano and it gets almost like a raisin e sweetness sweetness and deep flavor just talked about. It's not only the heat that we're going for so you toast that in a skillet. It's GonNa make your kitchen smell amazing. It's going to bring out all all the flavor and aroma and that Chile and we're also going to soak it just to soften it up a little bit so that it can incorporate easily into the salsa so what else is in the sauce. It's very simple Chris. You have those Ancho Chili some garlic shallot tomato and then we have a little bit of sugar and there is a little bit if he of course those Pablo's and the sugar really helps just cut through that. It sounds so simple. Are there any tricks to doing this to get the most flavor. Well the only trick really is that we throw everything in a blender so it's very simple everything gets nice and smooth release all the different different flavors. And then you're good to go and this can be used to top meets. You can marinade you can just dip your chips in it. Catherine thank you oncho chilies. Make red sauce awesome about fifteen minutes and you can use it in a dozen different ways. Thank you thanks Chris. You can give us recipe for Chili Sauce. Aroha at one seven the MILK STREET DOT com. I'm Christopher Street. Radio coming up next Jay Jake. Kenji Lopez all on the science behind. No name dose. We'll be right back if you enjoy most radio. Please take a moment to rate and review us on Apple podcasts or ever you get your podcasts. This helps other people find the show and also encourages them to listen. Thanks this is the most radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. Right now Sara Moulton. I will be taking more of your calls Sarah. Are you ready. I'm so ready. Welcome to milk street. WHO's calling this? Is Carl Taylor where you calling when I can. How can we help you? I am curious about about seeking sweet things like cakes. Quick breads using olive oil instead of butter. What kind of properties do I have to consider? If I'm going to switch first of all. There are a lot of Italian recipes call for oil or olive oil like there are olive oil cakes or olive oil sort. Would've bunk kicks so that's typical. You don't want to use a highly flavor extra virgin olive oil from Tuscany. Yeah you want like Pompeii and you want some sort of regular light olive oil. I use. It doesn't have a lot of flavor because otherwise it'll be overwhelming. You'll also find that an olive oil cake will be moisture melted altered butter and a cake. When cake cools hardens and actually gives you a drier texture than olive oil which will stay liquid room temperature? So you you get a better texture. The last thing we've noticed is general us about three quarters as much oil as you would butter but also it depends on whether the recipe called for melted butter cold butter a lot of times. The cold butter is in there. Because you're GONNA cream it and get Aaron it with the sugar. I would only use the olive oil. I want a recipe that had called for melted butter to begin with but I'm also curious. Are you trying to make healthier desserts as that is trying. I just saved the butter for things that really matters in. And you know maybe some every day muffins quick breads. We'll think about like carrot cake right now uses oil. But that's a very moist cake. You'll probably get better results. Actually this is an interesting call you get better moisture cakes with oil than the butter in general yes flavor but you get moisture K.. Right my feeling about dessert is make the real McCoy. Make it the best. It can and really enjoy hi. It don't try to make healthy. Why thanks Julia? Julia just walked into the she is my mentor. You Know Oh yeah but you do get a moisture product with oil and depending on what the function assuming it was melted. But I'm assuming it was melted butter. I agree with you yes. There is a good reason not not health related for oil right. So they're okay you're talking. What about quick breads or cakes or yes and if there is certain flavors like I noticed sometimes like chocolate banana bread? You know you can use olive oil because there's so many other flavors they you don't necessarily tastes oil cookie right exactly or sugar cookie. Yeah yeah so us. Three quarters as much and used a very neutral. Tell you so expensive robust. Yeah Yeah Use a light olive oil all right. Thanks Carl sticker by welcome to milk street. WHO's calling this is Jay? Hi where are you calling from. I'm calling from Covington Louisiana. How can we help you today? so we bought this house About a year and a half ago and It came with the plants that we weren't quite sure what it was at first and it's turned out to be Tabasco pepper plants. Oh It's a pretty well established one and so it's producing several pounds of a small peppers every year now and so I'm just trying figure out what all we can do. Because it's a law. I mean besides making your own hot sauce and going to business competing with Tabasco. Yeah absolutely well. What kind of food do you like and you like spicy food in general? Yeah we do they. Are you know you know really really spicy. So that's kind of where we're not quite sure what always do them and they're also really smalls. You could just throw alcohol like vodka or gin or something and then you'd end up with a spicy vic- vodka which you use in cooking in small amounts and you could die with just tournament to a powder also throw them in vinegar for that. Maga's Roma Vinegar and pickle calm. You could freeze them. Then do what would then of course do what within but use them in recipes down the road. I'm just saying you have a harvest. You got to do something with a quick before it all goes bad so you could do the things that Christian said plus just throw some in the freezer okay. I would have little pouches and give them all away. Well Yeah A. Here's your Christmas gift. Infused Vodka are Kinda like that. Yeah what about the vodka. They disappear Bruin. I was GonNa try something like that. That's going to work. And then you can just use a little tablespoon avant garde teaspoon with something saute or stir front front right okay. Great describe the plant AMIS like typical pepper plant. That may be a couple of feet high. Is that what it's like to be about cece Hi. It's probably four feet in diameter thirty two so as Tabasco sauce all made by the mcilhenny family. Yes is controlled. It's only Donald Avery Island. Yeah hot sauce. It's a fun place to visit. That's pretty cool. Yeah all right well give that a shot but harassed I'd love to see Tabasco plant. Thanks for calling. Thanks for calling. I appreciate it thank you. This is most your radio. Christopher Kimball it's time for this week's Milk Street basic basic for years of told home cooks to preheat oil in a pan before adding anything else now. The thought is that a hot pan and hot oil is crucial. You'll for properly searing and saw Tang hypo Elkin. Also Suva role in preventing sticking but there are times when a slower gentler approach is actually best a cold pan and cold oil or best for delicate fresh herbs and slowly drawing out flavors from spices. Call Doyle's also best for garlic and onion slowly. Heating eating them gives you more control over the process. Avoids burning and also provides better flavor and cold. Oil is not going to make onions oily. Roy Onions cannot absorb oil all since they are full of water. There's simply no place for that oil to go for more culinary chips. visit us at one. Seventy seven MILK STREET DOT DOT com next up will explore the world of Food Science J.. Kenji Lopez Alt- Kenji. How are you? I'm good how are you doing good so I'm ready to have my mind blown. So what's on your mind this. Well this is actually a subject. I think you're pretty familiar with the because you and I worked on this back in the two thousands I think today we you'll talk about no need dough always an interesting thing to come back to because it's so useful. Yeah that was now. Refreshment Markman wrote this up on the times and it was based on a recipe by Jim. Lahey right exactly. Yeah based on Jim. Lahey is no need though recipe recipe. I think you and I concluded that it's better to need the dill by hand for about a minute or two Because it gives you more consistent results well threat it. Did it did for our particular recipes and for people who don't know the concept you take your flour yeast your salt and your water and you just mix it all together until forms a homogeneous blob and then you cover the bowl and just let it sit at room temperature overnight and then the next thing you kind of folded shape it into a loaf and bake it and you don't need it at all all that we're kind of gets done for you and we can talk about the science of that and a little bit but it's a very easy way to make high quality sort of flavorful bread red with minimal work. I think what we found in our particular recipe was that a lot of home cooks had difficulty working with very wet does and these no need breads often call for a ton of water. You know seventy percent hydration something like that. So part of our parameters was that we wanted to use a slightly lower ratio and that meant that we actually had to do a little bit of needing by hand at the beginning Just to make sure that the water is really perfectly distributed throughout and you didn't end up with these dry streaks of flour in the finished bread. Yeah Yeah and I think also in terms of baking you got a more consistent rise with a slight needing If you didn't need sometimes it would be. It would rise unevenly unevenly so he's award consists yes I think that was the other reason. Yeah exactly so yeah so maybe we can talk about the size of how Nido Works and then sort of what cases you'd WanNa Wanna use it in and maybe even how to adopt existing recipes you have to become a no need method because it works for almost all kinds of breads and even batters so the basic science behind it. Is that when you're kneading dough so what you're really doing is you're creating gluten. which is the network of sort of interconnected protein molecules? So when you add water to your flower these proteins become activated debated and then as you need it around free. It's sort of an elastic network like a net. And that's the network that gives it structure so as the bread baked in the oven bubbles of water vapor and carbon urban dioxide. Let out by the East will sort of expand and then eventually as those bubbles thin enough they they heat up and they set. And that's what gives bread. It's sort of bubbly bubbly. Spongy texture. So the idea with no need though is that rather than building these Luton networks by Han- by through lots of physical effort. What you can do is you can let the rest overnight and there are enzymes that are naturally present in the flower that break down some of the protein into smaller pieces at the same time? You're yeast is down there. And it's producing bubbles of carbon dioxide and as those bubbles sort of expanding grow they do essentially all of the action of needing for you. It's a much slower process. So you end up developing justice much gluten you end up with a ball of dough that is really easy to work with. You know on on top of having already been needed for you resting Overnight also makes it easier to Brown the does so so you end up with more flavorful. Doing what's neat. Is that that method. Actually it applies to not just does that are leavened opened with yeast but it also applies to batters. I worked on a on a recipe for Yorkshire Pudding essentially a few years ago and one of the biggest revelations I had there was leading the batter overnight now now Yorkshire Pudding or pop overs recipes usually say half an hour or an hour right. That's the typical amount of time. So what happened when rested overnight so first of all it rises better. It definitely Brown's better and it gets more of a depth of flavour. Similar thing happens happens. I'm in this. I'm sure you've tried yourself with cookie batter so if you let chocolate chip cookie dough rest overnight as New York Times recommended a number of years back it makes it pretty pretty dramatic difference in how it tastes You get sort of more rich butterscotch e Brown flavor that way than if you just bake it fresh. This wouldn't work though with the baking powder powder baking Soda Levin would it because when they are in contact with liquid they start to react so like pancake. Hey batter doesn't get better after half an hour right. Pancake better does not get better after having a modern baking powder is double acting so you know releases gasoline when you first mixed with water but then it releases guys again as you heat it so you can still get some leavening out of there and you can kind of compensate by just adding extra but yeah it. It doesn't it doesn't exactly work for most baking powder being sort of recipes recipes but you know what is delicious is yeast did pancakes waffles. Which Adar's overnight if you want a translator existing recipe to no need recipe? What you WANNA news just calculate the moisture content in there? So that is you take the weight of the flour in the recipe and you figure out. What percentage of that is the weight of all the liquids that you're adding whether they be water or juice or eggs whatever it is you wanna get a ratio there so as long as the ratio of water to flower is at least around sixty five percenter so you can just mix everything together and let it rest overnight and it'll it'll bake up really nicely the next day? If it's any less than that then you want to do a little bit of minor needing just to get rid of all all the dry pockets of flour and then again just cover it let it rest and it works with it works with essentially anything it works with enrich does Brioche It it works with. What does it works? Almost any kind of you can think of as a hydration is right. It'll work so your next book is going to be Lazy. Man's bread evidently we. Yeah you know this. It's useful the no these things because there are times when I get the urge for pizza and it's like if you know I can make my pizza dough in the food processor and it'll come out and be ready in a few hours. Well that's Useful but I also know I can just take those same ingredients. Mix them up in a ball by hand and all the pizza the next day. So let's manage your time according to your schedule knowing these different techniques. Thanks for making do one last question. Yeah so what about letting stuff sit in the refrigerator. This is always a room temperature. This method so no need requires room temperature because in the refrigerator the dolby comes to stiff. So the east actually won't need it but what you're talking about is is cold fermenting right which is something you can do after your does already formed so whether you form it the stand mixer the food processor by hand or through a no need once the dough is formed you can take it. Put it in a ziplock bag throat in the fridge. Got An it'll it'll continue to improve approve over the course of about three days once once it starts to get four to five days old Usually you'll get off aromas it'll smell booze and it won't rise properly but it'll improve up to about three days does so fix it and forget it throwing the ball mix it up come back the next day. Then you could bake off your bread. Kenji particularly useful. I'm GonNa go home and make some pizza dough and have it tomorrow. Thank you all right. That was was J.. Kenji Lopez all tees chief culinary visor for Syria seats and also author of the Food Lab. No need bread was introduced in two thousand six six and New York Times article bitten. Who offered a recipe by Jim Lahey? At least that's what I thought but wikipedia says it was first described nineteen ninety ninety nine cookbook called no need to need by Suzanne dunaway. Other sources say that Nonni bread had already been known in Italy long before the late ninety s Jasper White. WHO's the author of New England? Cooking once told me that there's nothing new in the world food. Everything has already been tried somewhere. Some time everything everything old is new again. That's it for this week. Show if you tuned it too late or just WANNA listen again. Please download street radio and apple podcast. Hi Cast spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Please don't forget to subscribe to the show that way. You'll get every episode downloaded to your phone each week. If you went to learn more about milk street replace head to one seven seven MILLSTREAM DOT com. There you can find recipes subscriber magazine. Watch the new season television show or order our latest cookbook milk milk street Tuesday nights also facebook at Christopher Kimble's milk street on Instagram and twitter at one seventy seven milk street. We'll be back next week. Thanks as always for listening And Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is produced by Milk Streep in association with W. G. B. H. Executive Producer. Melissa Gino Cassini audio editor. Melissa Allison producer. Andy sensabaugh associate producer. Jackie NOLAAC Production Assistant Stephanie Code and production so help from Debbie Paddock senior audio engineer. Douglas sugar additional editing. From Vicky Merrick Sydney Lewis and Haley faker and audio mixing from Jay Allison at Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts. Be Music by Chubu crew additional music by George Brendel Ed la. 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BraveTart: Stella Parks Reimagines America's Favorite Sweets

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

52:31 min | 1 year ago

BraveTart: Stella Parks Reimagines America's Favorite Sweets

"My favorite family recipe. The one I make almost every Saturday morning or baking powder biscuits. They're light they're fluffy. And just twelve minutes in the oven. So to make sure that this recipe does turn out like fluffy. I've always used King Arthur flower. It has a higher protein content than most other flowers. It's never bleached in contains no chemicals. So my baking advice in this is one time I take my own advice is to use. King Arthur, high quality consistent, and it's a company that is employee owned. For more information about King Arthur flowers, please go to king. Arthur, flower dot com. Hi. This is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading this week's podcast, you can go to our website, one seven seven milk street dot com to get recipes to stream our television show or to get our latest cookbook, enjoy the show. This is most radio from PR Axum host Christopher Kimball. Yeah. So if you have fudged that you've made whether it's a successful, bachelor of failure, that you can chop it up and melted into hot milk, and it's like the best hot cocoa in the world. I was still a parks, pastry chef and author braved later on the show. Parks will give us a lesson in better baking, along with the real history of the chocolate chip cookie. But I, I chat with rose, Tucker and Matthew's. Sally, their Phil barbecue spans twelve countries including whole roasted marmot from Mongolia to hanging in all day pit barbecue from New Zealand. Matin rose welcomed to milk street. Thanks for having us. Your documentary barbecue goes all over the world, but some surprising places, obviously, South Africa Japan Australia, but the Philippines are way. Mongolia. I thought was interesting New Zealand. You know, let me just start with this question, given the amount of time and effort one goes to for certain barbecue, especially in New Zealand where you dig a hole heat up the metal the rocks, put it in cages full of food covered over a few hours there easier ways to get food on the table. So did you come away with his thinking that this really has little to do with the actual cooking and more about everything else surrounding it? Yeah. Absolutely. I when we started doing this film, we sort of fought to our selves. It's, it's a film about barbecue but really, it's not a film about barbecue. It's, it's all the reasons why people just have to gather around a fire and have stories and have a reason to bring a community together. So, you know, I think even when we're in South Africa, something, we learned was that often people will try and extend the time that takes to cook something just as an excuse to spend even more time with friends and in New Zealand. The food is almost like an afterthought. When it comes out at the end of the day, you eat it, and you enjoy it. But it's been that whole day long of laughing and talking and drinking the that's really the event, yet the traditional marry people have a concept of the final, which is the extended family, which when we when we were told we would be doing a hung with the with the family. I thought it would be five or ten people, but it ended up being forty or fifty so there's definitely any excuse to bring people together. So the hung as. H. A. N. G I. Right. Is that how you spell it? Yep. That's good. Can you just describe that process because I, I was watching it yesterday going like this is I mean, I like hard work, but this is hard work. Could you just describe what they do to make this happen? Show a traditional honky, which is what we witnessed is you, you go out, usually to your family's Mirai, which is like you'll tribal lands, and you go out and you have us the would say in the situation, we were filming they went out and they, they chainsaw down the wood. Brought it back to the campsite dug a giant hole which took, you know, a lot of time go to build a big fire. You gotta to let that fi get really really hot. And then just when it sort of all burnt down to really, really hot coals is when you put the rocks in and has to be crazy crazy hot because you need that heat to be out of cook the meat that then goes on top of the hot stones and the stories that they use. Well, actually, you know, we even learned that the that the temperatures raging, probably excessive afoul degrees. That's so hard that they actually have to try and find volcanic stones because if they use regular stone, they actually can can explode. Yeah, a lot of the guys will filming we've had horror stories of like exploding rocks. And one guy had a scar on his forehead from, you know. Rock flying out of the P and heating him, just above the eyes. So it's it can be a dangerous pasta as well. Okay. Now, let's go to say it's my favorite part Mongolia. So you know, I was busy. I was making some coffee or tea yesterday. And I was watching him computer and all of a sudden I say, a guy blowing into the neck hole. And I'm going. This can't be the same movie. So could you just describe what he was doing and why he was doing it? Absolutely soy. It's technique way you cut the head off the animal. It can be a mom. It can be a goat. They're the two that we featured in the film, the techniques, the same, basically, you want to maintain the skin intact, because that's begun going to become your cooking sec effectively. So when you see him inflating, the mom skin, what he's doing is checking for holes, because if there's any holes team's going to escape and it's not going to cook properly. So he he blows into the caucus it blows up like a balloon he'd squeezes it a little bit. You know, checking checking checking determines that it's good to go, then you get the meat and bones that have been cut up and they go back into that skin sack along with boiling hot rocks. So again, we've got hot rocks happening. So for second. So how do you having fee? Dress, the number of deer in my time, how do you possibly eviscerating clean out the animal just through the neck hole because you're gutting it? How do you do that? They peel that back. Yeah. Yes. So you skinning it back on it self. Yeah, so it with difficulty. And then you stitch-up that neck hole and the whole thing in flights with the steam inside. And while it's cooking from the inside out, you then blow torch it from the outside to burn off all the for and cook the skin from the outside. So let's talk about the Philippines, the whole roast pig. He was cooked over bed of coals. There was a long a stake through the through the pig, and it was rolled by hand back again worth constantly the whole time. Is that right? Yeah. So we focused on a single person who made Lech on in the Philippines, a guy code journey, and he was affected yet. Your backyard shift for Haya basically, Ed Ginny got some prepares the animal, and then cooked over called right there in, in the backyard, and he Han rolls it because that way he can vary very carefully control. What is quite a high degree of hate on it, and basically work towards the lucianne, crispy skin, which is what everybody looks forward to. He told us that if he takes a break for more than about twenty thirty seconds. He could he could ruin a whole day's work. So he would just sit there all by hand. He told me he's rolled three he could do to with his feet, and one hand and still smoke. A cigarette in the office is very, very impressed by his Dick's territory. I've done like sixty pound pigs. But I have to say the, the skin never got super crispy. So obviously, he knows. He was he was doing it for decades. Right. He'd been doing this a long time. Yeah. Yeah, he'd grown up. It's all he did. And apparently, the white works is, when you have the family celebration. There's an order to it, where the, the senior citizens, the, the grandmas and the Grandpa's get the I did of the crispy skin. And then if you're about twenty years old, you get bout last in line. So there's a bit of an order to it, and apparently, grandma's known for taking more than their fair share of the Krispies in so bit controversial somebody to look forward to in your old age, I suppose. Right. And some of the grilling was the people who are just grilling sausages, and I found those people as charming as the people who are working all day, right? Oh, yeah. Well, you, you talk about a stray leeann Bobby G, which is very little more than I sought yet sausage on a grew with a piece of bread. And some ketchup and some onions, maybe if you feeling fancy. This is in Australia. It's all about simplicity. I always joke that the, the real proper Ozzy barbecue is all about feeding one hundred people for one hundred dollars. You know quick easy. Get to the beer as quickly as possible. Yeah. Hundred dollars for one hundred people. I think that's a t-shirt. Right. Or that should be on the truck hundred dollars. So a project. This inevitably changes one, I would assume are you different now that you've been through this process? Yeah, I think we always say that when we started this film, we sort of had this hypothesis in, in native testing, and that was that there's more that brings the world together, then then drives at a pot and is very interesting because we sort of started shooting this film in about twenty s fifteen sixteen and the world has changed a lot just in the last few years. I it's a place at on the surface has a lot less tolerance and is sort of veering into some dangerous territory. But our experience of what we saw just visiting regular communities of regular people around the world. Just fooled us with a lot of hope the idea that people can do things so differently, and that on the surface cultures can seem so different. But when you drill down to it, the reason why the Mongolian family gathered around the boo dog. To eat, mom is exactly the same as why a bunch of all these outside a pub mistrial yet. Have a couple of snags on the Bobby, and so that was the hypothesis. We were hoping would be true and then to find it everywhere we looked with really reaffirming. Thanks guys. Man rose barbecue documentary really, really fascinating. And it also had a strong human interest to it wasn't just techniques. So thank you so much for your time, we pay hang on having. That was rose. Tucker, Matthew, Sally film is called Marvin. You can subscribe and listen to radio anytime as podcast. New shows are Friday on, I tunes Stitcher tuning Google plants. Spotify just subscribe and get all of our shows downloaded right to your phone. Right now. My co-host Sara Moulton I will be take your calls. Sarah is, of course, the star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television, also author of the book home cooking one oh one Sarah, are you ready? I am so ready. Chris welcome to most street has gone Janet king, Jimmy king. How are you? I'm good. How can we help you? I have a question about Honey. Okay. Okay. When I go to the grocery store, and I buy Honey in the little bear. It's usually real liquid and it stays that way. My son brings home local Honey, because he thinks it's good for allergies and it goes solid like right away. And I was just curious about the difference in how it's processed. And if that process changes the nutritional value of putting. For many years. And my Honey, also crystallized the way to fix that is the take the top off put it in the saucepan with water coming about half. Two thirds up the side and heat, the Huntington about one hundred sixty degrees. And that's when the crystals melt, he won't stop it. Re- crystallizing a few months later, but that'll solve the problem I think raw Honey is much better. I know in Vermont people talk about the fact that it will stop allergies. It's very good for you. The commercial stuff has been heeded. It's been pasteurized, which is what keeps it from crystallizing. It's been treated. I bought this shameful about a month ago, I went to the supermarket and I bought one of the little bear things. Explain one, because my wife was very upset because my real Honey was making sticky and making a mess. I thought, okay I'd make her happy. I tasted that it was garbage compared to. Yeah. No, it was just awful. So I think getting good local Honey is great. And just as I said, top off in water one sixty it'll melt the crystals. I agree with Chris just fell over. She agree with me. It's rare agree. I had to say it Janet, go ahead. I'm sorry. No, I sometimes feel like I'm getting Carol syrup at the grocery store. When I buy the bear in the hunting, because it's kind of, like, Honey. But I think the local does taste better. Yes. Like pancake syrup. Yeah. Which is not actually maple syrup. No. In also the taste of Honey varies. Obviously totally depending on the flowers at the time. So like a buckwheat, Honey and stuff is very strong. Some of its too strong, actually you might have a very strong tasting Honey, in a milder one, depending on. How you want to use it? But the real deal is much better than I. All right, Janet. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Take your. Welcome to milk street, who's calling? Hi, it's Jessica question about wheel temperature my husband, and I have an ongoing debate about the temperature of oil or butter to use whenever cooking on the stove, top, I like to like, leisurely chop say, my onions, and then throw them into a cold pan before heat them up. I think because they feel like that I have better controls the cooking process. But my husband thinks oil should be heated prior to adding anything to the pan. I think maybe to speed up the process. So my question is what if any the resulting of sex of starting temperature oiler the butter and what do you recommend for different dishes? Well, sort of depends on what you're trying to accomplish with onions I don't think it'd be terrible to start 'em too cold pan. But generally, I start something in a cold pan if I wanna pull out its flavor so like garlic. I always starting to cold pan onions, not so much just cook him low and slow and till they, you know, do what they're supposed to do. I get translucent and then get caramelized but. You know, obviously steak you don't want to start Nicole Panter vegetable, you don't start Nicole pan because the steak won't see or the vegetable get overcooked. So it sort of depends on what your end result is the other reason to heat up an oil, for example, in a pan is when the oil starts to smoke. You know, the pan is up to a saute temperature four hundred to four hundred fifty degrees. So if you're saute ING, you wanna Brown something, you always wanna bring the pinup if the pens three hundred degrees, you put a bunch of meat in it just gonna Stu steam. Yeah. So as Sarah said it depends on what you wanna do. But, you know, I agree with you about the unions. I cook onions starving, the Copan cook them, very low and slow. And also the other thing, I've found is that lower temperatures now other than searing, you're not gonna burn something quickly. It's more gentle way to cook. And I find it safer. And if you've got a phone call kid comes in this problem if using high heat two or three minutes on the ten it can be a disaster so things. Onions can cook for half an hour low and slow and it's actually better. I mean if you just see your onions quickly and don't let them get softened, and then, you know, Brown, they don't give you the same day flavor at all the same thing that makes you cry is the same thing that onions give you when you cook them low and slow, the sulfur compounds sort of breakdown, and develop this, great depth the flavor when you cook, low and slow, you know, I've never tried onions and Copan. But I think I will now someone else told me chef and Boston said, was Barbara Lynch actually she said, listen to the pan. Yeah. Because if you listen you can tell if things cooking at the right temperature, especially like onions. So it should be a very soft even sound right? But if you get sort of an angry San in the pan, you know that it's over and cook so high gentleness. And onions, I think a good thing, right? So not with me. So the answer is your husband's raw, isn't that fun? No, it sounds like we're actually both right, depending on what it, depending on what we're looking to do Sarah smiling, broadly, by the way, we all get very sort of. No, it all in the kitchen and I'm not I'm no innocent here. Either. It's important to just be open. If it were French trade. I know but if it works in the end, who cares and me. Okay. Thanks for calling. So you can cook your as low and slow. Don't worry better. Yes. And garlic, for sure starting to hold pan, right? Okay. Okay. Thank you, Jessica. Bye. Bye. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. If you have a cooking, failure or question, give us a ring anytime our number is eight five five four to six nine eight four three that number is eight five five four to six nine eight four three or send us the mail. A questions a street radio dot com. Welcome to milk street, who's on the line. Cory matthews. Hi, cory. What's your question? I am tragic, put my wife's favorite meal, and it is a spaghetti squash. And we just got back from the hospital. She just had a baby yesterday. And I want to. How exciting. Yeah, I thought this could be a really cool opportunity to be a first time caller and cook what you want. So the spaghetti squash is she likes is actually something that has a spice into called caravan and I've done a lot of research on this, and I can't find out where it is how to get it. If I could make it sounds like sort of a curry kind of spice. Right. Sounds like North Africa. Right. I mean, is it sort of have some warm spices in into it? Does it was dried fruit pistachio? Oh, hi nuts. Men, a lemon. Is this a name someone just made up for the spices? We found it at a restaurant. And it was delicious dish. Well, you know, it's interesting that spice combinations blends, even for zitar or Duca or other things. Every place has its own recipe. There's no consistency whatsoever. So you'd have to just lay 'round with around with it. Because different play. Bases. Have totally different ways of doing the blends. Was there a liquid in there, too? I mean, it was sort of, like spaghetti with liquid. It said on the menu, preserve lemon that could've been it. Definitely North Africa. North africa. Yeah. Was it spicy? It'll. Not so maybe Cardamom cumin cinnamon. Yeah. That's definitely be. I said that might be done. I'm thinking about it. Is there a balance as to what you use those three equal parts or very small amounts? Cloves tiny quarter, teaspoon, cinnamon, maybe double, the cloves, cardamon enclosed, small cinnamon twice as much I would say, and then cumin the most cumin them far the most did you try interviewing the chef? Not always a good idea. You can flatter them sometimes into giving you their secrets doesn't work with you. I'll tell you anything anything at all. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. How to start that conversation. Going say we just had a child. Yes. Used the child car and I wanna make something for my wife, as a special thing. And just wondering if you could give me some pointers and then just say, I promise I won't give it to anybody else. I'm just a home cook. And hopefully you'll flatter them into giving it to you dish up to be able to even get someone close to. It was it was quite nice. Sounds fabulous in congratulations. Yes, thank you very much. Appreciate your health. Okay. Okay. Corey pleasure. Thanks. You're listening to milk street radio. I'm your host Christopher Kimball coming up next my conversation with stolen parks about the science of baking and the secret history of conic American desserts. We'll be right back. You know, sleep experts will tell you that everybody needs a full eight hours of sleep. And that lack of sleep may indeed affect longevity. The also tell you that you can't get lost sleep back. So a good night's sleep is actually critical. And now is the perfect time to start sleeping well, with a sleep number bed during this Memorial Day sale, a Queen three sixty smart. Beds starts at just nine hundred ninety nine dollars. You know, to people never agree. And how firm mattress should be, but the sleep number three sixty smart beds, actually, solve this problem. Each person can choose their ideal firmness level in the beds, adjust automatically as you move during the night. So please come in during the Memorial Day sale, and save a thousand dollars on a new sleep number three, sixty special edition smart bed for temperature balancing comfort at an exceptional value. You'll only find sleepnumber at any of the five hundred seventy five sleepnumber stores nationwide. Find the one nearest you at sleepnumber dot com slash milk that sleepnumber dot. Com slash m I l k. This is most radio. I'm Christopher Kimball today. I was still a park. She's a pastry. Chef also, author of the new book brave tart part history and part cookbook brave tart reveals the stories and the science behind classic American desserts. Still, how are you? I'm good. I'm good. How are you doing? Chris good. So you graduated the CIA you worked as a pastry chef. And then you decided to move the Tokyo for six months. What, what did you do? I bet you were not a pastry. Chef in Tokyo. What did you do in Tokyo? No, I was I was enrolled in language school fulltime. I was hoping to one day work as a pastry chef there. But of course, that wouldn't really be possible without a thorough grasp of the language. So I enrolled in language school and that was tentatively my goal did not pan out, but I made it through two semesters forty hours a week. So that was a significant amount of, of language education, so brave tarred. You you're. Senior writer at series seats. Kenji Lopez alt- is your mentor. I guess, in some ways, and just talk about brave. Tar you have classic American desserts. You have classic American candies. You have classic American snacks like twinkies and stuff fig, Newton's, you can make it home, even have a recipe for rainbow sprinkles, which was interesting even had a recipe from McDonalds app or turnover. You can do at home. So what's the concept of the book for me? A lot of it has to do with taking a holistic approach to our experience of growing up in America, and really trying to honor both sides of that question, which for me means, you know, the kinds of pies and cakes, and cookies, that we would have at home, but also all of the snack foods that would be, you know, pretty ubiquitous at school or you know, on field trips or things that aren't made from scratch, and, you know, Proust's had his Madeline and I had Oreos, so. So to me, it was just very natural. But I think a lot of times, pastry chefs and food writers in general can kind of approach the types of snack foods as less than they're guilty pleasures, or they're kind of kitschy knockoffs. And if you look at the type of copycat recipes that you see online, or in books and a book store, they're very low brow. It's like, you know, Dr bub secret to snack cake heaven, and it's like it's not really a a technique oriented approach. So I wanted to, to find a way to make these types of desserts, accessible to the home cook. I'm going to describe your book differently. I think you went into this repertoire of American desserts with your eyes wide open, and you wanted to do the history. Right. Because most of these recipes star with some history, and you wanted to really find out where they came from, and this is a quote at the beginning food writers. Tell us that cheesecake. Dates back to inch increase, but give me a break. Some guy might have shopped globs of cheese, Honey into a kill, but unless he picked up cream cheese and Graham crackers at the Agra, he sure his Haiti's didn't bake cheesecake. So you have some attitude here, and you do great research. We were chatting earlier that I- propagated ally. You've now told me when I did a fanny farmer dinner years ago, I thought and I was told in the history books the Boston cream pie was invented at the Parker house in Boston, and your, your research found what? I found out that there there was no evidence for their ever being chocolate on a Boston cream pie until well into the nineteen thirties, and that by all accounts, it was an innovation that was brought on in advertisements from companies like general mills, and Pillsbury that they were using this as a way to kind of dress up an old standby and draw new attention to it. Did Ruth Wakefield really invent the chocolate chip cookie? What do you say? Certainly not. She did popularize them. She had a pretty incredible reach at the time that harass P was published. She had already but out a cookbook, the to- house, tried and true recipes, I think it was the chocolate chip cookies, didn't appear in until maybe the fourth edition. So she was already a well established cookbook, author and a presence in the culinary landscape. Her recipes would appear newspapers and stuff like that. So by partnering with Nestle and specifying a specific. Type of chocolate and having a well-tested recipe she got people making this type of cookie at home, and that's, that's no small feat, but long before her recipe was ever published. We have printed advertisements for chocolate chip cookies, being sold by the pound at supermarkets that had at least a inter state distribution level at Kroger. So we, we know they predate her. This is it's in the record books. It's fact now it's time for food fight, so apple pies. You know, I've always said this want to know if someone can cook to make an apple pie but your recipe, I will get your recipe says for you said some history, you said, if the apples, the filling it over one hundred ninety five degrees. They break down sort of turned apple sauce, which is pretty interesting. So you know, when you're is done by you using history thermometer. But you said you cook it sort of low and slow and the recipe says four hundred degrees for over an hour is that low and slow for the volume of apples. I think. It is. You know you could have a lower temperature with a smaller pie and be a different kind of result. There's like five pounds of apple pie or it starts out with, like, four four and a half pounds. Maybe as the starting way of the whole apples, so it's, it's a lot of apples. And, you know, the idea is just to keep the apples themselves below the boiling point so that they don't break down a lot of recipes you do cook the apples until they're juicy and bubbly, and that can work. Well, there's a lot of different ways to obviously make an apple pie. And there's a lot of completely valid approaches. But I like using tapioca starch, so the ratio of starch to sugar and fruit that I use does better with this kind of, like lower cooking temperature. That keeps the, the apples integrity intact. We're on radio, of course, but I'm gonna ask you to do something visual, which is frost, and decorated cake. So you layers of yellowcake or white cake. How do you get things even how do you froth? How do you not get cake crumbs into your frosting? What, what are some tricks for, for someone who, let's say, does this once a year for Perth day? Yes. So I always recommend leveling a cake with Sarah tonight. Trimming off the domes on top and for starters that clearly helps the, the cake stack up nice and level, you know, sometimes you see people if you don't do that. You think, oh, this isn't too bad. I'll just stack them up, but it's like the Princess and the p like the small subtle domain of that. I cake really exaggerates when the second cake is put on top and sometimes that can stressed the kickout and cause a crack because it's being bent more than it can really withstand. So let's do a bunch of quick questions and answers, there's some really cool stuff in your book. So what's the secret to a McDonald's apple turnover? Freeze dried apples. It's, it's a it's a cool way to both thicken and layer in more flavor into the pie. I just it's a pretty classic apple spice blend. But then to that I also add a generous amount of freeze dried apples that have been ground into a fine powder. And so these tiny little bits of apples will absorb moisture from the fresh apples in the filling and offset that liquid presence in the in the baked apple pie while also contributing a secondary layer of apple flavor, and it's, it's a pretty cool. Little trick homemade twinkie there. There's an odd ingredient in that recipe. I believe club soda. Yeah us, I think a lot of people are a little bit scared making chiffon style cakes at home or any type of, you know, whipped egg kind of cake, a foam. You'd people are afraid of deflating Ed or crushing it. And so instead of using water, which is a pretty traditional ingredient in any type of American chiffon cake is clipped, soda, and the, the bubbles in the carbonation in the fizz from that just kind of. To help ensure that if you over mix it by being a little rough with the spatula that the air cells that you've crushed through maybe a little bit of imprecise technique are kind of repopulated by the carbonation in the water. How do you turn fudge into hot cocoa? Yeah. So if you have fudged that you've made whether it's a successful bachelor of failure. It's essentially just a bunch of chocolate and milk and sugar. That's all in, like one concentrated packet, so you can chop it up and melt it into hot milk. And it's like the best hot cocoa in the world. That really caught my attention. There's an interesting ingredient in Blondie as well. Yeah. So maybe a double layer of interesting ingredients, I use white chocolate in my blonde days, a lot of blondes are entirely chocolate free. So in order to get the same kind of glossy crest and fudgy texture that we think of when a traditional chocolate brownie, I wanted to include white chocolate, and then to kind of up the ante since a lot of people have some complaints about the lack of flavor and white chocolate. I like to caramelized that why chocolate in the oven in the low oven to kind of help get some Browning going on in these kind of caramel notes snickerdoodles. Those are really hard to make. I think they're the hardest cookie to make because there's sort of light, and they collapse, easily is there some trick to, to making a snicker doodle with just the right texture? You're kind of putting all of your eggs in one basket with butter, because it has a uniform melting point. But when you introduce coconut oil you've got, like two multi points that happen and together in the cookie. They kind of create some interesting textures and some interesting spread that I find to be really nice together. So a lot of people say that the reason some people don't cook is fear of failure, right? Sort of that's the hurdle in baking. Let's times ten right because we're likely to fail in an oven, the you are the stove top are there two or three pieces of vic- give the people or swayed. Their concern about failure to get them into the kitchen and baking, I think first and foremost would be investing in a scale that really takes care of a lot of the problems that happen, because, you know, if you don't know how someone measures they're flour when you're following a recipe, that's written by volume. You're going to be out of luck or if you're if you're if you're relying on recipes that are strictly based on volume. It's it can be kind of a crap shoot. I feel like having a scale alone and working with recipes that are already based in way, is, is a lot laws question, what's the most amazing annoying difficult spectacular desert you've ever made? Oh, gosh. Homemade butter fingers hands down. No comparison. How do you make them? It's exactly like making croissants, except the dough is hard caramel, and the filling is peanut butter, so as you can imagine doesn't sound some possible. It's it's entirely possible, but it's it is very difficult. The, the hard caramel has to be very warm to work with it. So typically, this is a type of dessert, a professional pastry. Chef would make an an confectionery shop under a sugar lamp to keep the caramel like warm and fluid. And I was just kind of determined for some reason to crack this recipe for the home cook. And so, you, you make this caramel, and you like toss it in the oven keep it like a really low heat, like I don't know like one fifty or something just so it's like warm and pliable and a little bit fluid. And then you make kind of a filling of peanut butter and cornflakes cornflakes just kind of add a little bit of extra crunch, and the peanut butter is essentially, the primary flavoring and you lock it in just like he'd make Khorasan's you have a big rectangle of the hard caramel, and then on half of it, you put a big square of the peanut butter Cornflake mixture. And then you fold it in half, conceal the edges and the new heat it back up, and then roll it out. And then you. Doing folds interns. Exactly like making a croissant but you have to keep it really hot. And you have to work fast, and it's like an all day process, it takes forever. It's if you think croissants, take a long time. It's, it's even longer than that. And the result is kind of amazing, it's easily. Also the best thing that I've ever made. If you ever think about sending me at Christmas present that would be it. Sela parks brave. Tar great book, great research, real pro and the recipes look terrific. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. that was pastry. Chefs Stella parks or new book is called Braveheart iconic American desserts. You know, I always thought that the Parker house hotel had invented Boston cream pie in the late nineteenth century, since chocolate was relatively new inexpensive ingredients. Sponge cake filled with custard and drizzle with Kenosha was a special dessert. Indeed. Except, of course, this story is fake news. Berry searching Parker. House menus and local newspapers still parks didn't find one mention of this desert park's also discovered that Ruth Wakefield did not invent the chocolate chip cookie. So maybe it's true. Myth is more potent than history. It tastes better, too. Right now. I'm heading into the kitchen and milk street. The chat with Catherine smart about this week's recipe Austrian Plum cake. Katherine how are you and fine? Thanks. How are you? I'm good. You know, almost every summer, we go to Salzburg, because we have family, there, my wife does or mother actually grew up in Salzburg. There's a little cafe is not far from the hotel soccer right on the river and it has amazing desserts. I mean, ten layers fifteen layers he's towards just absolutely amazing. And the also have some more rustic cakes like a Plum cake, for example, and these are made often with rife lower or sort of darker flowers, there, yeasty, cakes, sometimes a little bit better for wintry days, but we thought we take that concept of a Plum cake simplify it and bring it back to milk street. So how did we get started so milk street? You want it to make this even simpler? And so instead of using a yeast cake like you had talked about Kris we decided to use baking powder as the lever, and we also increase the butter and used what's called the reverse creaming method. So rather than creaming, your butter and sugar together you actually coat the flower in the butter and that keeps gluten from developing to keep your cake, nice and tender. So then you just add the rest of the ingredients the eggs, etc to the bowl. That's right. So it's a pretty standard cake from there. You do want to make sure that you're using soften butter, because cold butter won't blend, well into those ingredients, which is really important when you're doing reverse creaming, and then, of course, we move onto the plums. So we're the plums, am I going to have to be like a pastry? Chef to do this, or can I just throw them in the battery what you don't need to be a pastry? Chef we're not that fussy Chris, you're gonna use about a pound in a quarter of plums, and you're gonna just quarter them and then arranged them on the batter in concentric circles, but you could use red plums, or black plums, just make sure that they're ripe, but not mushy because you don't want the cake to be too wet. So you're saying that I could do this, you could do this. So if I can do it, anybody can do it speaks in what a moderate oven for what forty five minutes with crests crest. It bakes at three twenty five for over an hour. And you just wanna make sure the batter is fully cooked. So when you test that the battery is done. You wanna make sure there's no wet crumbs that are cleaned to the toothpick. We did find that because of the top layer has a lot of plums in, it is sort of shields. The middle. Of the cake from the heat of the oven. See really have to thoroughly cook this. Otherwise, the inside is going to be undercooked. Right. That's right. Catherine thanks very much, Jim Plum cake brought home to milk street. It's no longer winter desert. It's actually great for summer. Thank you. Thanks, Chris, for the recipe for Australian Plum cake. Go to one seven seven milk street dot com. I'm Christopher Kimball listening to Millstream radio. Coming up more of your culinary questions and dilemmas with my co host Sara Moulton. We'll be right back. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. Now it's time to take some calls with my co host, Sara Moulton Sarah, are you ready? I think it's time to do this walk into milk street, who's gone. Hi, it's Helen. Hi Helen, where are you calling from I'm calling from orcas island, Washington? You know that is one of the most beautiful places. It looks like for Mont to me it has farms and rolling hills. And it's I'm jealous anyway. So how, how can we help you in the kitchen? I am. Wondering how the baking strips that you soak and put around your pan work. How does it keep a cake level? Well, what it really does is avoid the outside of the cake, over cooking, the evaporation, cools the outside. So cakes tend to cook from the outside in, and so the metal heats up and the outside of the cake rises and sets before the inside. So we will give you a more level cake because the outside's not going to rise faster than the center and you. Will end up with a more even cake. I've used them actually never use. I've never even heard of them. What? Yeah. I'm like, oh my goodness. I got to this ripe old age, and I it's like a sub sixty seventies thing. Yeah. No. I've used them. They were. You can Wilton cake decorating, I think, has I have to help the people like me, who just had never heard the place. It's just open call Amazon. You can. Out, Wilton cake, decorating. I'm evaporates and that cools down the outside very often, people cake promises center, rises more slowly, the outside rises and sets in the center has never rise as high anyway. They do work. Yeah. Pretty cool. Yep. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks. How was your thank you? Take care. Bye bye. You're listening to most radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. Give us a call anytime with your questions at eight five five four to six nine eight four three that number once again, is eight five five four to six nine eight four three or Email us at questions at mill street. Radio dot com. Welcome to milk street who's calling overseas Elizabeth from Nashua? New hampshire. Oh, hello? How can we help you? Well, I have a question on crabcakes, so's making after I mixed all the ingredients together it was very, very wet. It wouldn't hold together. So when I try to fry it, even it didn't hold together. And I'm wondering what I did wrong. Or what I could use to correct that problem of being so wet. Let's start with what did you put in there? Well, I put a crab made pound of that some crackers onions, bell pepper mayonnaise and one egg Worcestershire your show. Dry mustard. Lemon juice, half a lemon. Juice, and garlic powder salt and pepper. Limits suggest one thing for starts. I mean, a lot of people put, you know, a binder in sounds like you did to did you chill it after I had that problem. I did put it in the fridge and try it again the next day, and that didn't seem to help much and the only other thing that I use miracle whip what kinda cramp were you using it wasn't expensive was in a container that I got at the deli was the cramp itself, went I didn't think so. The onion in the green bell pepper was at chopped really fine. Well, it said to do that, but I don't shop anything very fun. Isn't that can be part of the problem, too? You've got these shanks that are not helping it to come together the mixture. So you might want to either leave them out or chop them really fine. Okay. My yes, Chris dying to weigh in will you have what four cups of filling, and you're done. Well, it sounds like one eight is not enough for buying. I would just add, I didn't egg, and I would try real mail. I don't know if miracle whip actually would have the same binding characteristics as real male. Right. I don't know what goes into. Miracle whip frankly neither doesn't have exit who knows. Oh, that's not. I, I would try real mayo and double the eggs to, to give that a shot. Because mayo in eggs should be a pretty good Pintor and how many crackers third of a Cup. That's not very much I would increase the crackers to half a Cup at an egg and use real mail. So a half a Cup of cracks, another egg and real maintenance. And I say put a few little crumbs or even panko on the outside, like shape them into a crabcakes in and just dip them quickly and panko, which will give a nice crust on the outside, and maybe help to hold them. Yeah. And I, I still think you should shape them into crabcakes in chilled them that way. Okay. See if that helps finely chopping. I agree. I mean, I made little Turkey burgers, sometimes. And if you don't get the ingredients really well chopped, they'll fill break it up. They'll break it up. So either leave them out or chop them finally or. Chopped onions are really wet, aren't they? Graded their wind finally chop. Not so much unless you're knife was really dull you know, you can great them and put them in a kitchen town. Squeeze him out and get the liquid. That's a good idea. Yeah, what a pleasure. It is to talk with you too much. Thank you so much for helping my pleasure. Thanks for calling. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball right now. It's time for this week's milk street, basic. We like to use kitchen, tools and lots of unorthodox way. So here for ways to use your whisk that maybe you haven't thought of I starring pasta whisk is the best tool for stirring, chubby, chunkier tiny, pasta, shapes that may otherwise stick together. The second is whisking couscous. We're in Tunisia a few months ago, we found out the secret to light couscous was too lightly oil, the hydrated pasta, administered vigorously with a large fine wired whisk makes all the difference in the world. Number three folding cake batter, you know, most recipes have used a spatula to blend the whipped eggs into the batter, but we prefer sticking with a whisk it does a far better job of actually blending the battery together without to flooding the volume of the eggs, by the way, a large Whiskas best and use it very gently to fold in the whites you're not actually whisking hot chocolate is another great tip. We recently visited Oaxaca and were served a very bowl tasting nut in vanilla flavored hot chocolate. The front, the top while in Mexico. They use wooden tool. Cold Mola Neo to frost the hot liquid. We found a whisk works just as well. There you go. Four ways to use a whisk you hadn't thought of. You can find out more and most radio dot com. Next up. It's Dan passion of the sport. Full, dan. How are you? I'm doing Well, Chris, how have you been pretty good? How much time have you spent in southern California, your big TV star? You must go to LA now and again. Yeah, fair amount of time doughnuts there. Yes. About an hour south of town. There's a, a lot of Mexican bakeries and they make terrific pastries including donuts. Yes, interesting. I have not been to those, but a couple years ago, I was driving around LA. And I'm ama- sucker for donuts or one of my favorite sweets, and I noticed that there are tons of mom and pop doughnut shops in L, A, L A, not a place that I associate with decadence, sweets. I think of LA is more like great Mexican food Asian food, and then maybe like we grass shots so great. I'm noticing all these independent mom and pop shops, and I and I love them, and I'm and I'm Gordon myself on donuts, and I started looking into it, and it turns out, there's a very interesting story that explains how LA came to be this way today. There are. Five thousand independent doughnut shops in California. No, yes. Really? Yes. Five thousand Dunkin donuts has had a very hard time breaking into the doughnut market there, because the stranglehold that these independent doughnut shops having their local communities and of those five thousand shops, ninety percent are owned by Cambodian Americans, what. Yes. And it all traces back to one guy, a guy named Ted noy, who came from Cambodia to LA in one thousand nine hundred seventy five in the early days of the chimera Rouge. And what would become the Cambodian genocide, and he opened a Donut shop, he saw, Don? He was he was pumping gas. And he saw Donut shop across the street. He tasted a donor for the first time he wanted to own his own business. He went into that doughnut shop. They gave him some tips on how to get started. He got trained in the business, and eventually opened his own shop, and he opened a second and third, and a fourth, and then he needed more people. He wanted to open more Donut shops, he needed more people to run them for him. And just at this time this. In Cambodia got much worse and scores of refugees began pouring into southern California and Ted noy and his wife, sponsored visas loan people money, set them up in the doughnut business taught them, the business taught them how to run a successful doughnut business, and it became a thing like they started helping their cousins, and aunts, and uncles. And then those people help their cousins, and friends, and it spread and spread to the point. That now you would be hard pressed to find a Cambodian American in southern California who doesn't have some connection to the doughnut business, and it's a great point of pride for the community. That's great story, but the story doesn't end there. Of course, nineteen seventy five Ted Neue arrives in LA by one thousand nine hundred eighty five he's making over one hundred thousand dollars a month in the Dona business. And then he had sort of more disposable income, leisure time he became addicted to gambling, and over a period of several years he lost everything and disappeared. This started out as a happy. Story. Now you're getting dark on me. So, so then what happened? It gets dark. Well, well, so this is the subject of a of a major two part odyssey podcasters that we did on the sport full called searching for the doughnut king, because Ted was known as the Donut king in his heyday, and I'll give you a little bit of a spoiler. We did find him. And it turns out that there's quite a story of redemption, and he has attempted to make amends for the people that he alienated, but he has a very complicated relationship with the Cambodian community because when he left is sort of, in disgrace, he, you know, he owed a lot of people money. But yet he felt like he done so much for the community as it was. There was some kind of bad feelings there, and he has just recently come back to southern California and attempted to make amends with the community and burnish his legacy, which is in itself, very interesting because now a lot of those original Cambodian doughnut makers, the original wave of refugees, they're retiring, and some of their kids are now they drew up in the US, their doctors, and lawyers and teachers, but. Some of them are taking over the doughnut shops, and trying to evolve them to the next level of sort of gourmet donuts. So I gotta ask the obvious question. How are the donuts? So I, I would divide them into two categories. There's the old school Cambodian own doughnut shops, which are very mom and pop shops. These are like the classic glazed crawlers chocolate. You know, maybe they'll do a red velvet nowadays. But it's like jelly powdered, you know, the classics and they're, they're served in the typical trademark southern California pink box. But some of the newer places, like for instance, in this episode of the sport for that went to a place called sweet retreat doughnuts in Long Beach, California, where a lot of the Cambodian American community is centered. And they do vegan doughnuts. They do fantastic. Flavours all kinds of different toppings, pistachio and, and blueberry, they made me a doughnut. There was like a sandwich. They sliced open a glazed yeast doughnut. The didn't have a hole in it, and they filled it with fresh with cream and fresh sliced strawberries, blew it was like a strawberry shortcake. Times a million man. That sounds good. So the, I'm so excited to see what the next generation of Cambodian American Donut makers are going to bring us just please no savory donuts. Keep him sweet. You're not a fan of the bacon. Maple bacon. That's all over the country. Now, please. No. Just I mean keep it simple. Keep it sweet. I agree. And I also kind of feel tell me what you think of this, Chris, I you know, the bacon ization of everything it's really kind of tired like bacon is good. It has its place. But, like if you're gonna put something savory on a Donut I can think of better things than bacon. Like, I mean, maybe some spiciness some heat with something sweet on a Donut could be nice does everything in the world have to get more complex with more choice. I mean there is something sweet. I say that specifically about the classics. I mean you know what? We'll celebrate with a jelly Donut. I'm going glazed crawler for me. I'm sending you a dozen bake filled donors. Dan, the Donut story. I'd like to know how it actually ends. But I guess we'll listen to your podcast. Thank you so much. Thanks, chris. Take care. That was Dan passion of the sport full podcast. Two thousand fifty poll as thousands of Americans which doughnuts, they prefer. And there were no surprise the winners. With glazed chalk lace in Boston creep, and the craziest winters featured rainbow sprinkles. But all that is about to change the doughnut revolution. Is here from the crow nut to the bright, purple terro rude doughnut served, why to the dead Elvis doughnut that offers bananas bacon, peanut butter and jelly. And of course, there's always the Donut go crazy. Burger finally Dunkin donuts meets dolls. That's it for this week show. If you tuned into late you can listen to our podcast and itunes, Stitcher tuning Google play or Spotify. Please remember to subscribe to the show, you'll automatically get every single show downloaded to your phone or tablet each week. To learn more about Millstreet, please go to one seven seven milk street dot com. There you can download each week's recipe subscribe to a magazine watch television show in order aren't cookbook we back next week. And thanks for listening. Kimble's milk street radio is produced by milk street in association with w h executive producer, Melissa ball. Dino senior audio editor Melissa. Allison producer, Andy, Sensabaugh, associate producer Jackie Nowak production, help from Debbie paddock senior audio engineer Douglas sugar. I just don't editing from Vicky, Merrick and Sydney. Lewis and audio mixing from Jay, Allison Atlantic public media in woods hole. Massachusetts, the music by to Bob Crow additional music by George Brennan, egg lawf- Christopher Kimble's, milk street radio is distributed by Pete artifacts.

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Inside Ottolenghis Food Empire: Tahini, Charred Eggplant and Green Shakshuka

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

52:58 min | 8 months ago

Inside Ottolenghis Food Empire: Tahini, Charred Eggplant and Green Shakshuka

"You know I found most to help. Change the way we cook. That means traveling the world to discover new techniques new ingredients new ways of thinking about food plus fresh flavor combinations and new ways to use spices. Right now we're making our online cooking school absolutely free to anyone who would like to join the food revolution you can choose from over. Doesn't classes from kitchen Improv. To the spice kitchen to milk street instant pot started free class today at one seven seven mill street dot com slash school one more time one seven seven milk street dot com slash school. Hi this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks downloading. This week's podcast. You can go to our website. One seven seven Milk Street Dot Com for recipes and culinary ideas from around the world. Now here's this week's show most radio for Exxon. Your host. Christopher Kimball today Sami. Tamimi Tara Wigley co-authors Palestine take us through a culinary tour of Palestine. The talk about the recipes. The people in what it's like working with Tom. Language I started my journey into the world of ten years ago. And I'm a complete clone. I said if I feel disloyal if I do anything other than eat kirk thing well it sounds like the way you talk about like. It sounds like a cult. It is a cold. It's Tahini and chapter eleven and olive oil and no one ever leaves we kind of people and also coming up. We make tenderloin with spoke Paprika and grant Barrett Martha Barnett explore hidden meanings behind nine words. But I it's my interview with food writer and top Chef Judge Gail Simmons gala walking industry. Thank you so much. I'm so thrilled to be here. You know when we read. People's autobiographies do research for the show. There's always one little thing that you pick up that just sort of really go out Your mother taught cooking. Classes in. This case was for husbands And your father dressed up as a French made to serve the food and I just thought you know okay. That's one of those little memories serve child. You'll never forget it really isn't it's really funny that you picked up on it because I've probably done ten thousand interviews since that book came out in two thousand twelve and you're the first person to ask about. It is the funniest memory and I have pictures in the book from that cooking class. My mother was an amazing cook and she was really ahead of her time. She was one of the few mom's doing tons of from scratch. Simple home cooking at a time when everyone else was discovering the microwave and so she taught a lot of the women in our neighborhood. The moms how to cook sort of weeknight food for your families or she would do it Chinese cooking class or an Italian cooking class but once a year she did a series of cooking classes for the husbands. And that was a big deal. I remember it being. It was like very Risque at the time you know it was like it was okay to cook and be a man and the end of their classes. All of the men would cook a big dinner for their wives and everyone would come to my house and this one year to go with the theme. I guess my father dressed up as a French made and served everyone. He was the server but I mean he was in like heels and fishnet stockings and French maid outfit the it was pre Internet and he probably didn't realize there was a photograph knocking around. Now he does. Now it's happening so you also worked for Jeffrey Stein Garden Vogue. The men who ate everything talk to me a little bit about his his Following a subject to it's illogical conclusion which I think is a pretty good description of Jeffrey Stein Garden. Jeffrey wrote for Vogue a regular column for thirty plus years and he really specialized in a single subject every month. Where he would you know? His his philosophy was do the most exhaustive research. You could do by any means necessary at a time when he had the magazine budget to do that and that meant that. If the topic was peaches here could get peaches flown in from all over the country all over the world and determine which is the best possible peach in the world or it could mean learning about northern. Thai curry pastes and flying to Thailand for a month and researching them and men coming back and hunting down the most ideal mortar and pestle. The adventures I went on with Jeffrey were outrageous. So we're going to move on now to television to top chef of course over people who were not real aficionados of the show. Just explain how what is a cooking challenge. How does it fundamentally work? Sure well on our show top chef. There's two challenges every episode. The first challenge is a quick challenge. We Call Them. Quick fires and the purpose of it is usually to highlight a very singular skill or a very singular type of cuisine or flavor combination or something. That's very focused. And they usually have a very short time to do it in thirty minutes to sixty minutes. And it's about thinking on your feet which is a very difficult thing to do when you are in an unfamiliar kitchen in the second half of the show is the elimination challenge every episode and that challenge is usually a much bigger challenge. It's usually plays out over the course of two. Sometimes three days cook Kentucky Derby Party for two hundred. Vip's using all local Kentucky ingredients for example. The that sounds like the kind of thing I wake up in three in the morning and just absolute. Yes what we joke but I really believe. It's true that because our chefs are cooking like that they forever will sleep with one eye open because they're constantly waiting for us to drop the next stressful bomb on them so to speak you've written about the different types of losers by that is people who who lost on top chef which. I thought was pretty interesting. Get four categories and you started with towering ego. So maybe you could just take us through some of those categories. Well you see patterns after so many years working on the show and there's a lot of different kinds of winners too. I was struck when I wrote about them. That everyone sort of you know well first of all going on in the first place takes ego being a chef takes ego but there's always the few who when their time comes to go. You know that towering ego is always the one who no matter what you say no matter the pieces that they aren't aware of no matter how good the other person's dish was. We made a mistake by eliminating them. We just don't understand their food. The category was the confessors. I which I thought was an unusual and interesting concept people who are just immediately. You know I did this wrong. I did that wrong ring. Yes and that happens all the time whether they actually lose or not. Sometimes it's when they win. Sometimes it's when they're in the middle but when we're interrogating them about their dish they immediately give up all of the flaws themselves. We barely have to say anything and they just it just pours out of them all the mistakes they made you know so it gives us more ammunition against them or sometimes for them and so we always tried to explain to them. You don't have to tell us we're only judging on what was in front of us. Okay so I'm going to write you a check for five million dollars and say Gail rate when that big great. That's awesome. That's all I want to say. And I want you to invent a new cooking. Show that has a contestant aspect to it what is it. That's not been done that you think would be a really great show million dollar question five dollars for that. You know Tom Coleco used to say to me. And I always use this. That people go to a restaurant for the food but they go back for the service and for the place and so at the end of the day. That's what you want. You want return customers so I feel like there could be a show really about that level of competition about the bigger experience of restaurants and what that magic fairy dust is that makes a restaurant. Great sell that very dust for a lot of money. If only I knew the magic potion to create it only do y'all Simmons thank you so much for being on Milk Street a real pleasure. It's such a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. That was Gail Simmons Culinary expert food writer and top chef judge right. Now. My co-host Sara Moulton and I will be answering your culinary questions. Sarah is the author of home cooking one on one also star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television so Chris now that I imagine you're spending quite a bit more time at home. Have you been experimenting with New Recipes? Yeah actually I've been spent three weeks trying to convert Caccia Recipe into a pizza recipe. And I finally nailed it about three days ago has got a nice crispy bottom crispy top and sort of area inside so I had to figure out how to turn that into a sort of thinner more crunchy pizza but I finally did in what I love is that you don't have to stretch the dough so wet you just put it in a pizza pan kind of stretches itself so amid really good pizza now. I don't have to roll it out. So tunnel spends Eureka. I love it. Well let's take some calls. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling this is Jennifer. Hi Jennifer where are you calling from? I'm calling from Wellesley Massachusetts lovely. How can we help you today? I have been doing more sheet. Baking recently and I've always been a fan of parchment paper for the cleanup and I started to feel like that. The roasting vegetables was more in uniform and that there was also less oil on the vegetables at the end I was wondering whether the parchment paper had some effect on that other than just making the Pant. Easier to clean afterwards well. It's somewhat of an installation. Obviously at keeps it from sticking. I believe you don't get quite the same caramels sation as you do when you have it on the naked sheet pan but I do agree that it just cooks more evenly get more even Browning ask for the less oil. That is interesting to me. Because where does it go? Yeah I was thinking that well this is just looking at you know. There's not science but looking at the panel. I take it out of the oven. I find that it's beating a little bit away from the pieces of vegetable. Well that's interesting. I guess that's also back to sort of the nonstick tippety of parchment that it just repels it somewhat. That's interesting I don't know Chris. What do you think you're right? The Persian papers just insulator which means less heat will be conducted from the metal pan to the food which will give you a more consistent result. But you don't get if you like little chart bits. You know really dark bits. I we do sweet potato. Yom's all time carrots. I kind of like the little bits that stick to the Pan because you get a range of different flavors from bidder to charge. Sweet your comment about beating interesting. Because I've noticed that too because sometimes I'll throw parchment paper down and I have seen that my guess is it just beats up because of the Persian paper. It's very surface and if it wasn't there it would just end up on the baking sheet. I don't think the vegetables themselves end up with less oil on them is my guess is just that you notice it more against the white piece of parchment than you would wanna charred fond strewn piece of metal but for consistency right. I mean it'll give you more consistent results if that's what you want but that would be you know a personal choice. I think as opposed to chart bits and the non-charter bits. Yeah I'd like it when you have to scrape the vegetables of the baking sheet just a little bit because it's more interesting but you know it depends what you like right. The first time I noticed it when I was roasted cauliflower and where I sort of like it to be a little bit more even although was still getting a little bit of Darker Brown on the top but there's also I've used sort of natural partial paper that's Brown and there's also that sort of nonstick parchment paper is really slick. Sometimes I use one. Sometimes I use the other. That might make a difference differences. Well the slick stuff probably insulates more. It's thicker and seems like it would transmit heedless well but yeah whatever you WanNa do you right. The cleanup is easier. There's nothing at this have done. You know three pounds of roasted sweet potatoes. That's called a big soak overnight. I'd say hoping you don't get up early in the morning right-leaning it's not your turn right. Turn right well Jennifer. Thanks for calling. Thanks for calling welcome. Thanks for taking my call. Sure Take Care Day. Bye Welcome Street. Who's calling hi? This is Pam from Dubuque Iowa. And how can we help you today? Well I am hoping that you can help me make Taichi at home. I Love Thai tea. I really can't have a lot of caffeine and I have found mixes online. But they're either kinda gross 'cause they got all this food coloring in them and none of them are DECAF. So you know it's got a really unique flavor that I can't figure out cardamom clearly is one of the ingredients star in US or anise pods would be probably their cloves. Anise and CARDAMOM. I think are the three things that they will use in that mix. You could fool around with combinations but Sarah. That's what I would think isn't it? There could be many many spices in there. But I would definitely agree with the Cardamom and the star anise and perhaps the cloves. But I've also seen cinnamon I've also seen Tamarin powder not that that's easy to find. I saw that somewhere and I wondered. I have tamarind paste in my fridge. yeah you could use that. I don't see my Tim Raines. One of the most wonderful things in the world. It is great for those people who don't know it's sort of citrusy and intense. Just seems flag tidied that you get your number restaurant but you know again. It's got a lot of caffeine in it. It's seems like it has this smokey flavor. The smoke is coming from the tea. Right did some gunpowder or whatever they're gonNA use. That's what the smoke comes from. I would think I just don't want us to taste like Chai which you know I make at home all the time. Yeah it's going to be similar to Chai probably but there is no recipe for Chai right China's teas so every recipes different but I think the cardamom and the star has probably will be the thing that support star innocent particular. I've also seen orange blossom water. Oh maybe the TAMARIND. In the orange blossom water would make a difference and of course we haven't mentioned the sweetened. Condensed milk and or the evaporated milk and then you put it all over crushed ice. Yeah yeah by the way on a side no. I don't know how much Tamarin pace you have sitting around. But if you soften some butter and use maybe four tablespoons of butter to one tablespoon at Tamarind paste and mixed that up and use that as a tamarind butter I actually make quick. Flat breads skillet sometimes for when I used to have people over dinner and I just brushed them with his Tamra butter and it may be the best thing I've ever seen in my life so if you have extra Tamarin sitting around making tamarind butter and it's just phenomenal. They could put almost anything. Yeah Wow yummy all right. That sounds really good. Well we'll try this you know. I've never put star innocent a Chai. Maybe that is that might be it. Yeah Okay All Right. Okay but police report back and let us know how it goes. What worked for you. I will think back by by this is most Radio Sarah. Ready to take your calls. Give us a ring at eight. Five five four two six nine eight four three one more time. Eight five five four two six nine eight four three or email us at questions at mill street radio DOT COM. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling. Hi My name's Alana. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. Where you calling from San Diego California? And how can we help you today? We took a trip a family trip to Paris two summers ago and stayed in the first round smart on our way to the metro from our hotel. We happen to walk past a blue on. Sri We saw something. They're called fissile shock a lot and it was the best thing we ate and Paris and I've tried different recipes but it just doesn't come close. I've never heard of fellow Shukali so this is a new one first of all. Let's just say a fee sale is a thin bag at and Baghdad is a very liendo. How did the chocolate appear? It was a crusty sweet beget lighter than a regular beget and sweeter and it was twisted. So that the chocolate chips were running throughout it. There was a definite twist to the bread chocolate burns if the temperature is high. You know if it's just naked and it sounds like this chocolate was somewhat naked. It wasn't insulated by the actual dough. So I'm sort of baffled Chris. I'M GONNA throw this one to you. I've spent some time at bakeries in Paris. I've never heard Facility Shukla but I would assume if when they twisted it if they put the chips or chunks using in those folds. You don't have a problem with burnt chocolate. So maybe it's just a typical sweet yeast dough similar to a baguette. But they just when they put the chocolate they just twisted sounds fairly straightforward. Sounds absolutely phenomenal so Chris. Don't you think this is something that the kitchen street needs to take on and see what they can do to develop it? Sarah Great Idea. We'll make it every morning for my breakfast for three weeks and Rhode Island and they will send you a sample yes please. We would be grateful. Twenty pounds heavier but really happy. Okay challenge accepted. Sarah will bake up some facility Chocolat. I love that We'll send you a recipe. If we come up with one they do take care. Thanks for calling. Thank you so much. You're listening to milk street radio up next. We hear from Sami. Tamimi and Tara Wigley co-authors Palestine a cookbook. That and more in just a moment to look forward to reading the news every morning over coffee but these days some finding better ways to start my day in fact. There's a lot of good news out there to compassionate people doing amazing things for others each and every day so when the new season of kind world you'll hear stories of people transforming their communities and changing the world through simple acts of kindness. Kind World wants to be your twenty twenty news counter programming. A podcast about how an act of kindness can actually transform lives. Subscribe to the new season of kind world. Now an apple or wherever you listen. This is mostly radio. I'm your host. Christopher Kimball right now. It's my interview. We Sami Tamimi and Tara. Weekly frequent collaborators of Yotam are also co author of the forthcoming Fallas. Stein a cookbook. Sami Antar welcome to milk street. Thank you very much so your book is called Palestine. Could you just define what that means Philistine? It means Palestine and I wanted to kind of choose something that relate to the place and to the people into the food for an English speaker when they look at Philistine. They don't really kind of get it but in the Arabic language does no P so they use F or B so when when you ask the Palestinian how the night's Palestine he would say fallas theme when I was in Galilee. There were some really classic dishes. Lugo was Akan Siniya math tool. But you're in your book which I love. You are taking those ideas. But it's a very fresh modern. Take on many of those dishes. Yeah I mean. It's quite interesting because when I started with Taro I had in mind. Classic Palestinians dishes But after a while in a process of making the the book and try the recipes. We decided that First of all. Who's GonNa Cook these dishes right? Do people have time to spend three days rolling? Vine leaves and stuff in jets and so are quite a lot of cookbooks. The moment in the market where they kind of have almost I mean. They are wonderful books in their own way. But they all have the same sets of Recipes and this is what we wanted to kind of avoid and do something a little bit. Different Fun but also something that you can rustle up The approach to the cooking squad. Easy if we try to keep that fine line between these two things very much at the forefront so for people who haven't got Palestinian Cooper this will be the we hope the definitive book for them and we'll have traditional Palestinian dishes but a semi says we will say want this to be a book. The people using on Monday night and cooking from so. Are you guys absolutely sick of Shakshuka at this point? I mean you just never want to see another rest before it or I know you have variations on that theme but is that just one of those things that is just enough already no. I'm not sick Franco's We still serve a very good sexual in our restaurants and they are often. You know the most popular dishes. I myself also do it at home crooked from time to because it's very easy to do quickly and you can feed to people up to twenty people and it doesn't. It's the same effort and it's really good frigerator as well like we've got a green. She couldn't burke I saw this. It's a great way to just chuck in any herbs lying around Also you know shook shook as the idea behind it is like whatever you have in the fridge you can actually just add to it eggs and it's lovely true if at either fatter. Tahini oh yeah so. Haiti's become this all purpose ingredient can drizzle it on eggplant and roasted. You can mix it with yogurt put into sauce or throw it in brownies. Or could you just talk about Tahini and how you think about and what you do with it. Maybe some ideas for using it that our listeners. Don't know about. I mean for me very few meals edition of a sprinkle of Teeny when I finished everyday with just a bit of chocolate. Tahini I have it on my toast. I have an imperative. I have it on ice cream. I have it on every single race vegetable as long as it's appropriate property. He should be as Ronnie and Creamy nutty. Is your best peanut butter. Say let's talk about eggplants eggplants one of the things it's not cooked here in the states very much cooked well yet. You know charge grilled eggplant. It's used all the time. Just talk to us about that. Because it's such a wonderful ingredient. I mean this is an ingredient that MEA NARA and all the family and all our kind of fans and people who follow the cookbooks. Love burned aubergine. What record or burnt eggplant. It's a very versatile it's a it people love it because it's it's quite meaty and Full of flavor and you can add it to almost every dish in in Palestine. I mean my my kids. Every morning they wake up and and The house is filled with the smell of burnt jeans. Because I have this Pavlovian reflex when I wake up in the morning and put on the kettle and then I just chuck to ever seen on the on the open flame. I think Clinton has something addictive and I I find it quite difficult. Go through a day without eating a neighbor gene. Well it's interesting that yeah people under it here in every recipe. I've seen like your respite. Whenever I mean you really cook it You throw a little Tahini on Broil it and herbs and it's Wonderful Spices. What are six things people should have on hand? They probably don't weasel of Aleppo chilly in in the book Ground Katamon is beautiful. Spice that's in We've got a fish spice mixes Paprika and grand Katamon and cumin and something else and cinnamon We'll spy data right now. Kitchen shelf should be complete. Without all all spice cumin to Murray. Why do cumin? Coriander seemed to be paired off so often. They'll have a natural affinity for each other. I find Cumin quite the earthly and savory and Grandes slightly sweeter and if you're not Kind of cautious the sometime clash and flavor but they both use got densely in in in the industry region which is delivered so you also went to a camp in Bethlehem and spent some time With a cook who gives cooking lessons Islam? She was she was her few times. And and She She lives in either refugee camp and she's go Lots of kids to if him Disabled she seen realized there was no provision for them in the camp or elsewhere and she started doing creek losses with with some friends of hers to tourists and people coming through and just running. This really thriving energetic business but yeah we met so many people doing such interesting cool things with food whether it's the kind of the seed or the producers or the distributors or the makers when you speak to an olive oil producer or distributor or the guy who's sitting under the tree guarding the military. It's not just about the olive say it's about land and identity so it's it's usually entwined in all the stories and recipes that go with that where Wade's so. There's a guy guarding the olive oil tree. You WANNA say spends more time with the street. And he does with his wife and It's a it's a very old tree and He's worried that One day he's going to leave it and the tree will disappear so he's just basically almost live underneath it. Which is very touching story. Really in the juxtaposition. Because he's this guy. He's got this down to his waist and Living this timeless timeless days but we walked away from him and the last thing you said to us was make sure you post all. Let me up on facebook and this tree was what seven hundred years old or some amazing. It was very old right. I think maybe different people say different numbers. We'll stick with very old but the hey sammy. I'm older than you man. So let's talk about semi. Let's talk about you. You grew up in east Jerusalem. Correct what was it like growing up there? And what was the food like? Yeah I mean I grew up in Very Foodie Family. Not in a sense of the modern food but they are kind of almost obsessed with food they would talk about food all the time and cook and eat and invite people and we had an open house where people just come in and go so. My mom used to cook a lot and she would always say you never know who's GonNa come. You know I don't we end up with somebody coming in and I can't really feed so I got that from as well for years. I used to cook like big meals for two people. And it's like what do you do with the rest And From a from a an early age five or six years old. I used to basically sneak into the kitchen because I wanted to see what's happening and what's cookie and It almost was like a secretive place. Where boys an unmanned on kind of Half part in kitchen so it was all women word and I was out so many times and two minutes later. I'll be back in the kitchen kind of trying to see what's happening. Food was really kind of center of every and food. What kind of Almost guide me all my life I. It's also what can kept me connected to the to the place and to the family and the people so tireless. Talk about your background. You started London moved to Ireland How does that connect to sort of the auto lanky family of cooking? I started My journey into the world of tennis just coming out for ten years ago and I'm and I'm a complete clone I said if I feel disloyal if I do anything other than eat cook or thing well. It sounds like the way you talk about. It sounds like a cult right. It is a cold air. We have we have the church Tahini and Shutt- and Lemons and no one ever leaves we kind of Adopt People. Stay with us if you start with a classic Palestinian Culinary Repertoire. We talked about earlier And now you clearly have taken a few steps to adapt it to make it useful for people as you said not. Everybody has three days to cook a dish Eventually you end up so many steps away from the origin that it no longer ties back in twenty or thirty years from now well not not so much because we stepped yeah A bit further but we stayed. What's the word recognizable and this narrative of stories and recipes recipes and stories and the link between the two and recipes? All like stories they get shared between people and in the sharing some things change and some things adopt but the core of the story stays the same and this is also a book. That's GONNA make. Samis sisters and family proud. That GonNa see this book and and see themselves recognize themselves. It's it's very Honest food is very connected to land. It's very healthy. It's Has got quite a lot of colorful vegetables and fruits and olive oil garlic Chili. Lots of their lots of herbs. Not Shelter Sahin so yeah it. Got All the right elements to please. You meant to make you happy to. You are kind of cooking and eating this type of well I just want to say. I've gone through with my sticky notes and put thirty five recipes on my absolutely essential lists Beautifully done Great recipes. I JUST WANNA congratulate both of you and thank you so much for being on Milk Street and it's been great. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us that was Sammy. Tummy me and Tara wiggly co-authors of the forthcoming fallacy a cookbook. It's time to chat with Clark about this week's recipes seared pork tenderloin was smoked. Paprika. Are you. I'm great Chris so today we're cooking with my favorite spice favorite. I had no idea smoked Paprika. Pimental it's one of those things that you just need a little bit of it in boom you go from good to great. I mean it's one of the things that Americans don't use very much but they should they. Should they confuse it with Paprika? Which has not really much flavor to it as more of a coloring spice I would say than a flavorful spice. Spanish kind is smoked has a ton of flavor the Spanish typically use it as a finishing sprinkle? So it's more of a raw application and we found when we went to Spain that cooking it actually dulls its flavor so you have to really treat it. Kinda gently and sometimes people use it with a leftover bread. Garlic like Jose Andres speaks a soup out of it the couple of tablespoons simple easy and you can take leftovers and turn them into great stuff so we're not doing all bread we're doing all we are so we're taking tenderloin and we're actually going to cook it. What is considered Allah launch? Which is a flat top Gretel? We're GONNA use a skillet here but what that really means is just cooking a piece of meat really hot and really fast so we take the tender line and cut it in half and then butterfly and pound it to about a quarter of an inch thick so that we really quick fast and when we put it in the pan. We're just seasoning it with salt at this point. I'm waiting for the pimental. Is that coming? It's coming so like I said we learned that cooking it too much really Dulles. It's flavor so we cook the pork almost all the way through and then we brush with this really great Paprika oil so it's Paprika with oil and Oregano and we brushed on right at the end and then it's literally just kind of kissed in the Pan and pulled off and then we brush it again with a little bit more. So we're getting kind of combination of cooking it blooming. It a little bit in the Pan with that raw application at the end. Did you say kissed becoming poetic linear poet. I didn't know that about you so start to finish. This is just a few minutes in a skillet so fast to handful of ingredients. Yeah it's great sounds great so seared pork tenderloin was spoke Paprika or conventional a great way to use despite that very few people do thank you want them. You can get this recipe for pork tenderloin with smoked Paprika at milk street radio DOT COM. This is mostly radio coming up. We discover the hidden meetings behind non-food words such as seersucker. We'll be right back if you're like me. You would give almost anything to get into the kitchen with Alice. Waters Aaron Franklin or Wolfgang Puck or maybe learn about managing risk from astronaut. Chris Hadfield the art of magic from Penn and teller. Or maybe the secrets of moviemaking. For Martin Scorsese. Now you can do all of this with masterclass an incredible online experience the offers the very top people in their fields they have over eighty classes and new ones are added all the time you can take classes on your phone tablet apple television or computer and approximately ten to fifty minutes in length. Masterclass lessons fit into any schedule. And you can take lessons at your own pace and what you learn is really priceless during my class with Carlos Santana. I learned how to think of the guitar. Something more than just notes in courts. It totally changed my approach to playing so by one annual masterclass all access pass for yourself and get one free to share Goto masterclass dot com slash milk to get started with his limited time offer. That's master class DOT COM slash. M I L K. I'm Christopher Kimball. You're listening to milk street. Radio Right now Sara Moulton. I will be answering a few more of your cooking questions. Welcome to milk street. Who's on the line. Hi this is will from outside of Philadelphia. How are you? I'm good how are you? I'm good thank you so much for having me on? How can we help you today? How question about cinnamon rolls when an I make them normally a shape and and place them in the pan today before and refrigerate them overnight and some of the recipes that I have say to them a room temperature before baking them. But when I do this there's a large amount of watery syrup that pool at the bottom of the pan. Why does that happen? And what can I do to prevent so when you make them you? Don't just put them in the fridge. You put them in the freezer. That's what you're saying. Well I've done both and both times I got. I mean there's maybe a cup or two of the Syrup that the bottom so much and I don't understand why does that it's white sugar use it. Cracked it's brown sugar okay. I think what's going on is that the sugar is just melting. How `bout par baking them just till they set up and then freezing them or refrigerating them and that way I think the sugar will sort of be set and you won't get that pooling and then just finish him off the second half of the way the next day. Now I'm going to let Chris weigh-in. I do have a question so you pull it out of the freezer and you take it out. What does it look like the second you take it out? Do you see any liquid in the pan or this is after some time. I there's a little bit of liquid independent but it seems to increase it sets and like I make the temperature with soften bar and put it in the fridge like what you know extracting moisture well. It's obviously the sugar. Sugar is hygroscopic. Which means it attracts water. In the only thing I can think of is committed the error when you take it out it's drawing moisture from the air. It's coming from the Freezer. Which is very dry and it's going into an environment that's very wet and moist relatively speaking so my guess is that sucking liquid from the error because that whole mixers pretty dried out from being in the freezer. I don't know whether if you use white sugar that would be better than using brown or mix the white and Brown but I doubt it. I think it's it's a sucking moisture out of the air as Sudan warming up. I think that's what's going on. Yeah I agree. I think it's just the sugar is the problem. But what do you think about par baking? I think that might be a nice solution. Maybe yeah I like that a lot. My only other idea was the recipes up in using you. Put some butter down first and then put a layer of brown sugar on top but I was thinking some recipes you make a paste of butter and sugar so I was wondering maybe that would affect you know the sugars bound up with something. Maybe when extract pull as much water in Try that's a good idea. I mean I know that when we've done it in our kitchen. We use soften butter on the dough and then put the sugar mixture on top but maybe mixing the butter and the sugar. Mike coated with fat. Which means it's probably not going to track much water when it comes out of the freezer refrigerator. It's probably good idea. Well we do us a favor and try it out and let us know how it goes. Yeah I can do that. Let us know because this has been a great question thanks. We'll take care all right. Thanks so much bye-bye this is most your radio. If you have a cooking question give us a call. Eight five five four two six nine eight four three. That's eight five five four two six nine eight four three or email us at questions at mill street radio DOT COM. Welcome Milk Street. Who's calling. Hi this is emily from area to Georgia. How can we help you? My husband and I A pig from a friend who was starting a pastured pork farm and I know with well raised and I was finished on Acorns but the problem is that the meat is super gamy. It's really strongly flavored. At least me unpleasantly so and many of the cuts have been it feels like almost as much fat as meat and I've got two and a half to three and a half pound brind ham hawks left and I just don't know what to do with them so I'm looking for advice say pastured pork. Exactly what does that mean? They were out on a farm. So they're feeding them corn meal usually degrade them up. Acorns would be fabulous and it also sounds since there's so much fat. They're getting a pretty rich diet. So my guess is. It's not the pasture so much as these are maybe older pigs. Do you know how big they were when they were slaughtered hundred? If they're older the meat will tend to be game. You're also fatter. Sounds to me like a bigger pig. That had a very rich diet of these smoked ham hawks or does Brian Ham. Hawks Jeff Bryant you know him. Hawks are great. Just the flavor a pot of beans or soup or stew or something else is just use one hawkin. It's just a great base deter you can turn water into stock essentially but cooking beans would be my go to USA. Sarah the one thing I was gonNA suggest which is what I always suggest with anything. That's Gamy Soak them in milk this if you want to eat them more straight up than just as a flavoring. Chris suggested. Just put them in a bag with some milk. Milk can really pull out bidder gamy unattractive strong strong flavors so. I'd give that a shot overnight. Twenty four hours. He talks have skin on them so the milk is going to do anything at all. You could even score the skin a bit to try to get some more of the liquid in there but you know. The hawks have some meat on them. Not Too much I would. You know we talk it. Most of the time about people cooking with water not stock and most places in the world use water. You Cook them in a couple of hours. You're going to make a stock. You'RE GONNA have a little bit of meat leftover when you're finished you. Just take the meat off the bone. Take the skin off. And then as I said that's the base for whatever you WANNA make a soup stew beans and I don't think the gaming is going to be overwhelming since you have one hawk and a bunch of water. Two or three quarters of water. How heavier how big are these hawks? They sound pretty big bear about who and a half to three and a half pounds. That's creator pound pig. That's a big animal so okay well that would be the best. I can think of anything else now. I'd I've still not going to give out the milk if she could score the skin somewhat to get the milk in there. Maybe I'll do one with a milk and one at the base of the sock. Yes and let us know please. This is a head to head contest so we need to. Yeah when you definitely call you back. I'll try to be on my shape that emily. Thanks thanks. Emily thank you jack into you this radio. Now it's time for this week's cooking tip from one of our listeners. Hi My name. Is Adolfo from New Orleans? I've eaten a lot of oil seafood in Louisiana but over-salted too spicy and overcook. Shrimp is all too common. Here's my tip on how to change. That puts a seafood boil. You like to use in the Department of Water. You can even make your own by using salt and pickling and other spices. This gives you control of the salt and heat next dropped shrimp in the water. Let Him Brian in the mixture for about thirty minutes bringing the pot to boil. Turn off the heat. Let them steep until just done perfect moral shrimp every time. If you'd like to share your own culinary tip on milk street radio please go to one seven seven street dot com slash radio tips next grant Barrett and Martha Barnett Their Co host of a way with words. The public radio show about language Greater Martha. What's on your mind this week? Well this week we're thinking about words that have foods tucked inside of them. They're hidden inside of these words. Would you like to hear some Yes give me an example. Okay let me give you an example of one of my favorite words of all time. The English word seersucker like the fabric. Yeah the fabric. Isn't that a glorious. We're just say seersucker. So the lightweight fabric that I might wear with a Straw boater. Yeah Yeah in the summertime to the Derby or something like that. I just have to admit to our audience that I have a seersucker suit you do. Yeah I'm a guy aware bow ties. What else are you gonNA wear in the summer? Well the next time you put on that seersucker suit. You can put it on happy in the knowledge that it actually comes from the names of two different foods. It goes all the way back to Persian words that literally mean milk and sugar. What how cool is that? And I'll tell you why. It's a reference to those alternately smooth and puckered surfaces. You know you have one line. That is as smooth as milk and another one. That's Kinda rough and bumpy like sugar. Over time it was it was in east India and it ended up in the English language and was also super cool. Is that the Sucker in. Seersucker is related to Other words that descended from the Indo European language so you get a Kara in Spanish meaning sugar. You also get sugar in English and you get care in German which is related to the name Zuckerberg which means Sugar Mountain. How cool is that so facebook is connected to seersucker? Lost me here so I get milk and sugar? Yeah but how do you get to a seersucker suit because that seems like a pretty Big Leap that is a really good question. Well I think the fabric was originally made In the places where people spoke Persian and it found its way into east India and Hindi and we picked it up there. Well that's great so the sucker part of seersucker is sounds so much like the word sugar can hear the similarity. Yes yes. Isn't that sweet? The seer doesn't sound anything like milk so that didn't travel to the European languages into English. Right sucker right. Its cognate with the Sanskrit word for milk but but yeah we don't we don't have a connection there but I just I just love seeing those images in seersucker can't top that but I have a hidden word for you. I have a word. Has Food Hidden inside of this? Is The music form. Zydeco CO music. Right Squeeze Ol- Dancing Louisiana East Texas the Good Times Roll Air. That's right so as far back as nineteen forty nine you can find zydeco mentioned in Prenton newspapers and albums and stuff and there was a song called Lee Cole. Song Pa Sallah which basically means the green beans ain't salted and it's a way of referring indirectly to the fact that times were tough and the wasn't any salt serve salted fat to add to the beans right so you didn't have any meat to green beans. Were plane and so. It's a kind of a fun rollicking tune you can actually find. Cj Chenier and playing it on Youtube can just listen to it. It's a fun song anyway. That name of that Song Lizzy Cole. Song Parsi corrupted sounds exotic coal zydeco and follows all these corruptions that very normal ways. That words are condenser contracted in the mouth to become the word Zydeco so the green beans basically turns into the word. Zydeco HAVE A. I can't wait to go. I listened to a migraine. Beans aren't salted. You need to translate it. Has My green beans ain't salty because it's really an earthy song it's really. It's hard time you know. I thought Gee was was a little dry live. You have made it very clear anything but you know people like Oh you do a show about language like thinking like cobwebs and grammarians the dark corner of the library and like quarter jackets with patches on the elbows thinking and the fact is that they're all these gorgeous picturesque images. Yes symposium hosie about Mark. Have a symposium glasses. Let's lift our glasses. Yeah the symposium is another of my favorite words because it goes back to Greek words that mean drinking together you know. The Sim is like like symphony. All these voices together symposium the podium in symposium is related to words like potion and potable and think about Plato's Symposium. Those guys were all sitting around talking about philosophy while they were drinking deep in their cups. Yes when I speak at a symposium I always like to mention that because it seems to put people at ease well philosophy and drinking always went together better. The evening went on Horn. Got More philosophical drink so to get back dead. Amal Aji it sounds like etymology is salty. That actually be your t-shirt for your show. Yeah salty stuff you know. There's more there than I thought. Oh it absolutely. That's got a little vinegar to it to create a Martha next time I see. Let's have a symposium like a plan that was grant Barrett Martha Barnett hosts of a way with words. Some food origin stories. Do Make Sense. Apple of my eye refers to a time when the people of the I was thought to be solid and in fact they called it the apple a piece of cake referred to a dance contest with the contestants the cakewalk and the winning couple received yes a cake but. I don't believe that they sandwich invented the Sandwich. Nobody had thought of putting meet between two slices of bread before the eighteenth century. I think it's time to call grant and Martha. That's it for this week's show you too later. One Binge listen every single episode. Please download military radio and apple podcasts. Spotify wherever you get your podcasts to learn more about Mel Street please go to one. Seven seven MILK STREET DOT com. There you can find recipes taken online cooking court's order our new cookbook milk street fast and slow. Instant pot cooking at the speed. Indeed you can also find us on facebook at Christopher Kim's street on instagram and twitter at one seven seven Oak Street. We'll be back next week with more food stories and thanks as always for listening. Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is produced by Bookstore in association with W Gbh B. Executive producer. Melissa Bongino Senior Audio Editor Melissa Allison Co Executive Producer. Anne sensabaugh associate producer. Jackie Nowak Production Assistant Sarah and production help dubbed powder senior audio engineer. David Goodman a digital editing from Vicky Merrick Sydney Lewis and Samantha Brown audio mixing from Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole Massachusetts theme music by two by Peru additional by George Bernard Igwe Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is distributed by Pete Artifacts.

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Inside the Mind of David Chang

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

53:32 min | 4 months ago

Inside the Mind of David Chang

"Hi this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading this week's podcast. You can go to our website one, seven, seven, Milk Street, dot com destroying our television show get our recipes or take our free online cooking classes enjoy the show. Most radio beer. Excellent host Christopher Kimmel. David Chang is well known for his rebellious persona, but he does admit that age has changed his priorities today he speaks with us about what it takes to manage a restaurant in why he is no longer concerned with being called a sellout. Selling out sometimes means getting older and more mature and you have to ask yourself am I holding onto my pride and my ego because I need to remain pure and independent and have my street cred and his my ego preventing my ability to better take care of my employees. And if that means, I'm a cell up then I'm a Selah. Also coming up grant Barrett and Martha Barnette tell us how certain foods contain cooking instructions right in their names. Later we share a recipe for the best dude beans. You'll ever make the first step today's my interview with Mark. Foresight about his book a short history of drunkenness. Mark Forsyth welcome to milk street. Thanks for having me on the show. Your book a short history of drunkenness. Did you originally set out to write a long history of drunkenness? Lung I sort of thought about it but I'm. Alone, history drunkenness would I think be a history of the entire world given the much of the Saadi on earth in all human history has drunk so am I thought, I'd just zoom in on various points and what was a wild West Saloon? Was the ancient Egyptian festival drunkenness. That sort of thing I'm a pick out little scenes and see the differences. So what was a wild west? Saloon really like I've always wondered I assume had nothing to do with what I've seen in the movies. largely, nothing's the first. Most disappointing thing is those wings saloon doors didn't exist which just ruins. Most of the Westerns I've ever seen though there is a an aspect which is actually very precisely. Correct. A lots of movies you know win sort of Clint Eastwood walks into the saloon and offered drink. The bomb just pulls him a drink and he chucks a coin on the bar and he never asks how much the drink cost and he never gets any change. That's actually completely historically accurate because what you would have is you'd have a two bit saloon usually there was a town to bit or four bits, saloons, four bits, the Nice ones the two big ones were very cheap and all the drinks cost two bits. So you could just throw your two bits on the bar and that would always pay for drinks, and that's why you still have that phrase of this is to town Accurate People did get very drunk out in the wild west Drinking whisky just because that was so much easier to transport and it known for a lot of it was fake whisky flavored with weird things like creosote. In one case I found the whole recipe book for how to fake various different kinds of drinks using wore alcohol. So you put in some cold tea some creosote some Roau. Little bit of sugar and it will take something like Whiskey, but it really would get close to killing you you ask the question the eternal question what happens when you give rats an open bar with the answer to that. Rat saw rats very amusing because there are lots of experiments where they've given open balls to animals. I can't help thinking that scientists have just giggling as they. I'm concoct these experiments. So chimpanzees, for example, just get drunk and stay drunk permanently but I'm rats do this very old thing of at the beginning they all just get drunk but then it forms into a routine and they drink basically twice a day they drink just before they feed which the Pera chief. And they drink just before they sleep which such as. The nightcap and then every four or five days in the rat colony they suddenly all up their alcohol intake. So they appear to be having little rat parties every few days I'm where they. Get, drunk together, and it sounds rather love in the human. But then there's a strange and much daca slide to it, which is that a colony has a very strict social structure from the the top male who's called the king rat down to the the the very low status males, and it's the low status males who drink the most they seem to drink out of stress they drink because they're miserable whereas the king racked is always a teetotaler. which is a bit similar, but it's very hard to say why they're doing because how much we are projecting onto the animals of our own human ideas. So for example, I mean. A fruit fly, which is a tiny little thing which has a brain at all. But we know that when a a male fruit fly is rejected by female, it opposites alcohol intake So seems to be drinking cure a broken heart, but that may just be some sort of strange projection. But it's lovely way way. So religion and drunkenness in in many cases goes together although not in in the western. Tradition. I guess. We'll we do of have Comedian one of the. Strange. Things about the history of wine and willing making is that wherever Christianity has gone, you've had to take wine in order to celebrate communion and of. That's why when all the conquistadors were landing on the on in American on the coast of California particularly, they had vines in that boats because they had to plant the vines so they could start making wine so they could convert the natives and then have a proper communion. So Emit meant quite seriously that things like converting is land became very hard because any way you have Christianity, you've got to have your wind supply somehow getting. As Techs, you mentioned as texts. More Hallucinogens, they did not like alcohol. You said that a priest who drank was killed. Yeah. The government official lost their job a regular person would have their head shaved in public. So why was alcohol not part of the Aztec culture a lot of the time if you if you're normal person you, you'd be strangled in public and if you were nobleman, you got strangled in private, which seemed like a weird advantage to being a noble It's quite odd to see how Aztec Culture worked with drinking. They definitely had beer. They definitely got drunk. They mentioned that drunkenness owner scale actually because there were four hundred sacred rabbits of drunkenness. So you measured you'll drunkenness on a rapid scale. You'd say I was seven rabbits drunk last night. So let's go to China. Seventeen, hundred BC. One of the emperor's drank a lot. I. Love. As he was happily drinking and writing his chancellor around like a horse when his chancellor became exhausted and collapse, the emperor had executed just the day in the life. A day in the life to Chinese emperors according to the once you got far enough back in history the emperor's become slightly mythological, and you can't work out to what extent existed, but there were two that was the first Chinese emperor had a wine lake. Built. So he could paddle around it in a little canoe and just sort of lead over the side and Drinking and a few generations. Later, you had another emperor who had a wine lake but this time he had a little island in the middle with a tree on which was hung with baked meats. So you kind of a bacon tree or something. So you get you paddle around on your Wine Lake and then pick bacon for tree. I just sounds awfully wonderful, but the Chinese had A. Troubled relationship with wine they. According to legend the the guy who invented wine, which was actually the will the white does come from China but the guy who invented wine showed it to a the first very wise emperor and he tasted and said, this is wonderful. Half the guy executed because it's too good and it will disorder in the world. True Also. Great. Pleasure. So fast forward to today. Do you see the history of alcohol still today affecting how we consume it and where we headed next with it? It's so hard to say where the trends are going. Now I will say that we will never copped drunkenness out of our lives. Now, we'll have cut out we need to say, cheers, we need to mock time and place and weddings and funerals New Year's and birthdays, and all these things we need alcohol and drunkenness specifically as as a kind of punctuation in our lives and I think that's part of being human and that will never ever go away. Mark Forsyth thanks for being on Milk Street. Thank you very much for having meal. There was mark foresight and Malla Gist and author of a short history of drunkenness. Coho Sara, Moulton she is, of course, the star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television also the author of home cooking. One one. Sarah Ready to go Chris. I. Am so prepared. Welcome to milk street WHO's calling. Hi, this is Josh from Chicago. Josh. I am doing fantastic good. Can we help you? Well. I'm calling because I am trying up my spice game. I of percents longtime had the typical spices, my salt, my peppers maybe on occasion and I'll go crazy now some dried oregano cumin. So I thought I would actually Kinda break the mold this year and try and. Build out that spice rack that's been for too long empty and I'm just trying to figure out. How does the guy? Kind of build out the spices and you know, where did they start and what are some of the more interesting spices that one should have in their repertoire? Well, I'll give you five or six prices I think you should. You mentioned cumin coriander. You should definitely have those I would have them ground and whole seeds a lot of recipes I use them whole or toast them hole in a skillet for a couple minutes and then grind them up and you get lots more flavors for Pepper Aleppo, pepper and Earth a pepper Aleppo is particularly useful. It's a little fruity it's hot. It's using a lot of recipes around the Middle East, a smoked Paprika you can use water old bread. In some garlic and make a soup with smoked Paprika that's great. Turmeric, assume you have around but make sure you have that and then to others SUPERMAC, which is used a lot in middle eastern cooking. And lasts would be Sichuan pepper corns because they give you that sort of numbing experience in the mouth, which is really unique and is used in a lot of cooking. So Cumin Coriander Cardamom Aleppo smoked Paprika Turmeric. Samak, Sichuan pepper corns that's more than five. But that's my list era josh what are you going to be cooking? Wall I traditionally, mostly students I'm trying to break out of that mold I'd have to suggestions, saute onions with some oil cook them an add the spices with the onions at the beginning to develop some flavor. So no matter what spices you us don't just throw everything and you can use a cult pan with coil and put the onions in and then add your cumin coriander whatever you want in developed after seven or eight minutes. Secondly when you're finished with your dish. Take a little bit of oil just like grapeseed oil could be your olive oil. Take, a little bit of spice like in Aleppo Pepper would work or you could use turmeric or whatever you want and infused stat on top of the stove just warm up the oil. With the pepper in it for a couple of minutes. And then drizzle it over each serving. When you serve it, it's called targets T. A. R.. K.. It's used in Indian cooking. Those two things should upper game substantially because you get a lot more flavor at the beginning and at the end, well, I agree with cooking things in oil and also finishing with spices as well but I would love for you to learn the flavor. Profile of each one of these spices. So I'd almost say take one at a time and cook and a little oil and taste it and see how you like it. This is a new concept for me a flavor profile. Well, this is wonderful. I'll now feel less intimidated when I walked down that spice file you should don't worry about charge yes throw your shoulders back Josh forward. Okay, thanks for all right. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, care. This is most your radio. If you have a cooking question, give us a call anytime that number is eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three, one, more time, eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three, or email questions at milk street radio DOT COM. Welcome Street is calling. High Howard. Breslow law calling is that the Howard Breslau that I know or is this different Howard Breslow is Chris? It's GonNa ask me really embarrassing question right I'm GonNa. Sit Back. Word how can we help you make it very difficult, Sarah Hello and do address it right to Chris put him on the high. Okay please. Get right to it a law has been swirling around recently about the proper way to grill meat. Much of this is come from meathead Goldwyn advocates roasting in an oven and then finishing on a grill and you put some science behind the meat grilling debate and put it to rest. there. Yeah Does this is a softball. Thank you. The theory is this. If you cook a steak or meet over very low heat, it's evenly cooked from the outside in so you have more rare or medium rare and whatever you're trying and achieve is meet had says, what happens is it's not the heat cooking the inside of the meat, it's the outside of the meat gets hot, and then that radiates heat to the inside of the me. So if you use high heat, the outside absorbs a lot of energy and gets overcooked. The time the inside comes up temperature. So you start with low heat, mostly Cook it, and then at the very last few minutes, you could a skillet or over high heat just to get a nice here. The other thing that happens is you get sort of turbo aging wants the me gets in that seventy, five, eighty degrees one, hundred range you actually get flavor. Development I've done applying taste where you can actually taste the difference. So if you put a thick stake in an oven for half an hour, forty minutes at two, hundred, fifty degrees, you are sort of aging the meat traditionally the reason I guess we all go to one of the reasons that many people have advocated for grilling is to see a win the juices. Searing does nothing to seal in the juice. It's not a bag of water leak out unless you see side, the only reason that liquid leaves is because the muscle proteins tightened they twist and they shorten in the water gets pushed out and that's an entirely a function of internal temperatures nothing to do with the outside at all. The other thing is you know if you cook chicken I do it over very low heat for a long period of time and you get a great browning on the crust. About what kind of chicken like spatchcock chicken on a girl okay. Cook very low heat and you will find me inside down skin side down both. Okay. Flip it. It turns out. You can get a great crust with low heat with time. Right and you don't have to worry about burning and you don't have to worry about flipping it constantly I think it's a great way to cook chicken as well. I like that. So yeah, fame temperature to fifty. Well, this'll be an outdoor I just put it on. Low on a grill men. To it. You can also have the gorilla medium high or the other thing you do is it's a three part gas grill to center is off the two sides are on medium high. You know you're almost roasting with indirect teens say. Great you didn't think he gets this much excitement. Did you know at this is exactly what I was hoping to get. I'm delighted to get this detailed answer started start a steak stake in two fifty and then finished on the grill or skillet. Thank you so much how our thoughts you. You're listening to. Radio up next chatting with David Chang host of Netflix's delicious. Also author of eat a peach we'll be right back. The more I cook the more I rethink how I cook for example, I often wonder why I have to turn the oven if I'm just cooking for two. And that's when I tried out the power xl air fryer grill. It's an Air Fryer, Grill Rotisserie convection oven pizza oven griddle deep Fryer, and toaster oven all in one. I started with a rotisserie chicken was juicy, crisp and super easy to do. In terms of frying and use his hot air nut oil, which is, of course, cleaner and healthier the power xl roomier than the typical air fryer. It also comes with a ton of accessories is the number one brand of Air Friars USA and the power xl comes with a ninety day money back guarantee right now they have an exclusive offer just for Milk Street listeners go to try power XL DOT COM and use promotion code M I L K you'll receive ten percents off plus free shipping and Free Cookbook T. R. Y. POW E. R. Excel Dot Com and use our promotion code. M I L K. One last time that's try power xl, dot com and use code M I L K. Radio I'm your host. Christopher Kimball. Right. Now, it's my interview with chef and Momofuku founder David Chang. David Welcome. To. Milk Street. Excited, to beyond thank you for having me. Love your memoir eat a peach You're a lot of interesting stuff in here but let me just start with this quote. You think Osaman. Salmon really wants to swim upstream and Die Question Park. They have no choice that's how I feel too. And I have to say reading a memoir. Like yours I wasn't really expecting those lines could you just explain what you mean by that? Yeah. I used that expression. A lot number one I think because I'm a avid fly fisherman. And I don't know oftentimes think like a fish, but I always ponder. Why would they swim upstream to go back to the place of their birth freshwater from the ocean and? Ultimately. Do something that's genetic coding. To reproduce and then die you know it's an incredibly in some ways sad and depressing thing but ultimately to. Could be seen as beautiful. But in some ways, it's how I sort of think about the existential sort of plight. That I sometimes think about my own life in that, you know you have to continue to move forward regardless of the circumstances and that's the only guarantee you have in life. Right? Is that you're going to die and I know that seems incredibly. Sad to think about but I sometimes think about it in a way. That's very refreshing. Gets my gets me moving. So let's start at the beginning you grew up in northern Virginia. Your father was from North Korea your mother from South Korea, you were golf prodigy, which I did not know in a very early age. But by the time you got to be with ten or eleven of the people started surpassing. You was that motivational for you was that difficult? You know sometimes I. Think about Chris and it's almost like gas lighting was even that good because I'd ever you know. Fulfilled as a prospect but I think about it then and I didn't really know what I was doing. And I was cocky little as a kid because I just one and I beat everybody but I don't think I ever grew to love it. It became something that I had to do. And you know burning out is a is a terrible feeling because I didn't have the mental experience or. Ability to understand why I wasn't good anymore. That wasn't that an easy to deal with. Also. Your Dad I there's a little detail I love memoirs. Is the details that matter you said, he was the kind of guy who would order his meal ahead of time in a restaurant and then ask for the check halfway through. That that just sounds like the antithesis of your approach to food. It is the antithesis and simultaneously imprinted a giant giant part of WHO I am simultaneously. Yeah it was. It was embarrassing he would call before. We would leave the house to go to a restaurant order ahead and we would be in and out in under sometimes twenty minutes. So you know it wasn't about enjoying the meal. It was simply just food to eat something delicious as quickly as possible and get out you know part of my career I think has been exploring what's absolutely necessary and dining to strip away some of the what might be nonsense or trivial things and I never thought about it until recently that wow, like my dad did leave that giant imprint on. You also talk a little bit about the the restaurant business. When you got started at Cafe, you said the amuse Bouche. had a rule and the rule was it had to be made from scraps. Had to be one bite it had to be incredibly delicious but they weren't gonNA spend any money on. Creating a separate prep for it. It was something you had to sort of create out of nothing. Is that true of a lot of restaurants or was that just there? Yeah. That's true for the most part I mean there were probably a handful of times where there was something I remember one day getting a base Gallup in. and. We made a dish that I've continue to riff on bass yellows with pineapple and Dashi. But Amuse Bouche for the restaurants that I've been in for the most part like I'd say, Ninety nine point nine percent of the time have always been. We're not buying you anything us what you have in the restaurant and be resourceful be creative. You have to make something out of nothing yet make it incredibly delicious and visually stunning. It becomes the of your existence but that kind of pressure. Proved, to be very fruitful for me. So okay. So you want to start your own restaurants and at a very young age. Yeah. You had a great concept which still maybe even more relevant today you're talking about. Japan I eat extraordinarily well in places that weren't punishingly expensive and I don't mean cheats you mean people who have an incredible devotion to craft but this was not the two hundred, fifty dollar a person meal and I just think that's a lovely concept. To, start a restaurant. Yes. It was a variety reasons as to why I started it but I think one of the main reasons why was I never thought I was going to be good enough to open up a fine dining restaurant but I at that time of my life I was fortunate enough that I traveled abroad and there was a good stretch where I thought I would be an ex PAT living somewhere in Asia and I was able to travel and I think that's probably the most important thing if you have the privilege and luxury to be able to see how other people eat. And from China and Japan and Korea in a little bit even in Europe specifically in Asia. I was blown away at just how well people would eat cheaply right even from the convenience store to how college students would eat but. There was a rich culture throughout Asia that I found was not only accessible and Populist, but it wasn't fast food. It was something that I know how to understand because it didn't exist in America that you could spend five dollars to ten dollars an avid beautiful meal. And it wasn't fast food. Well. So you opened the restaurant I I just love the so someone one of your customers ahead had your and your noodles said I've had this in Asia. If you think you're making Japanese food, I'm sorry you're sorely mistaken actually. I have to ask you have you ever been to Japan and so you re did I think in the first few months you rethought the menu and decided to do what you really wanted to do. I guess, well, you know that those first six months were brutal. We were certainly going to go out of business and you know we started off talking a little bit about ruminating on death and and how that can motivate you and. When you're faced with the prospect of going out of business and your business dying. You're like, okay. The things that I thought were important. Aren't that important the things that I thought that I couldn't do who cares right we're going to go out of business anyway and the best way I could describe. The pivotal moment for us was like we're not going to serve dumplings. For that back then I thought if you were going to serve noodles, you had to serve dumplings you had the fried rice and these were sort of steers typical side dishes of serving something in an noodle house. And then most people even won't what a noodle house was most people don't even know what a real ball rhyming. So I was like who cares you you have these ideas that you want to do but that's just too far fetched people they won't get it. And then when you find that, you have basically like two to three weeks of of money laugh you're like screw it. It's called motivate wishes try everything right? Who cares exactly. So you also talk about the reality, the restaurant business and you talk about every day you'd have climb a ladder to clean out the air conditioners, compressor vans because of a tree in the neighborhood that had some strange flower on it you know dealing with some pump and other problems. How much of the restaurant business is really not. Exploring your art is just the day to day cleaning out stuff and making sure the electricity works. Man. That is A. That is your entire life. Just. Dealing with the most idiotic things that are constantly breaking. It's hard to focus on actually cooking. Because, you're now responsible for the livelihoods of employees and your guests. You know maintaining building in New York City is incredibly difficult. So you find yourself you know. You just never have a moment of quiet. Because you're constantly fixing something. And then you finally richer point where you accept it. Like if you talk to a lot of restaurant owners that have been not necessarily successful, but they've endured it at some point, you stop fighting and complaining about the situation and you learn to sort of let it wash over you and realize that this is just part of reality now and you learn to accept it. And you learn to become better at dealing with it and the best way I could describe it as. You just sort of surrender to the idea and then you reach another level. Well. I think. Bill. Buford. Told me recently pointed that out to, but he said. You know twelve hours a day of doing the same repetitive task. At some point you get to the top of that hill right or the bottom. and. You start to love it. you start to love the repetition you start to love the work. Yeah, I mean. It's one of the reasons why we decided to choose the cover of the book, which is basically a riff on the myth as`sufficient. Existential absurdly stupid job. You could possibly do you spend twelve to fourteen hours a day making something that's going to disappear in the toilet. You know eight hours later on consumes it it's. It's so dumb. And yet we. Treat it. So seriously and I think that the reality is is at some point if you if you get it. It becomes like everything the the monotony the what I jokingly say is the stupidity of it becomes liberating and becomes like a weird metaphor for life where doing the work becomes the best part of your day because. When you step back and you really truly appreciate it. It's this job that. It's a little bit of sportsmanship. It's a little bit of teamwork. It's physical it science it's artistry. It's business and I have a hard time finding any other job that has that we have to like truly juggle all of those things. To, be great at it. A lot of people sell out in this business you you almost sold out to a fast food channel one point. You're right about a developer. I think who wanted to do business with you and you discovered deepen the contract that you'd have to take over one of his losing properties fix it. Is that. In Your Business is the idea of selling out. A problem and do you think people who do eventually sell out lose their soul in the business or you think that's the right endpoint. I've wrestled with that question selling out a lot in my life and I would argue that if I was a younger version of me and my early twenties, I'd say. This guy's sell out now right and you know what? Selling, out sometimes means getting older and more mature. Young and rebellious, and for me it was how do you always do better to take care of everybody and so much of our growth originally was trying to get healthcare for everybody you know and that was the thing is. When you have to ask yourself. Am I holding onto my pride and my ego because I need to remain pure and independent. And have my street cred and is my ego preventing my ability to better take care of my employees. And if that means I'm a sell up and I'm a sellout then so be it or even survive as a business or even survive as a business. Exactly. So things change for sure. Let's talk about you for a second you. You say you're method was a dangerous shortsighted combination of fear and fury. And you also talk about getting depressed. Are you at a stage now where you use outgrew all of that. In life now you have A. Kid and. You outgrown that period of your life whereas that's still with you. Know I don't think. I'm ever going to outgrow it. That is something that is. Going to be. With me. Forever. I still wrestle with all of these things. You know the default setting as it was. You. Know that's that's my. That's my duty. The challenge I present myself to make sure I try not to make the same mistakes and to grow and to be a better person to hold myself accountable and. To acknowledge my weaknesses an in an and. To be transparent. And I think that the only thing that's really been different Chris is. As I've gotten older, I'm more willing to share it with people in the people around me, and before when I was going through whatever trials and tribulations it felt like I was totally alone and while I still feel totally alone at times I know unequivocally now that there are people that in my worst moments will help me out. You knew Tony. You the book you've talked about. Having a series of meals when with him with just a a massive amount of food, he texted you after dinner and the texts said be a fool for love. I think I know what that means but what does that mean to you? You know again I think about that a lot too and I think Tony just was like. I think at the end of the day we all know what what makes us happy. But. We're freighter the repercussions of actually doing it. Whether it's out of fear or embarrassment or some kind of anxiety that whatever you actually want to do. In everything we want is on the other side of fear and I think that's what Tony was saying. Is. Whatever's in your head. That's preventing you from being happy. Or finding lover being more fulfilled. Just throw that away. David. A real real pleasure having you on Milk Street and I wish you all the best. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me on Chris. David Chang, founder of the. Restaurant Group also host of Netflix's ugly delicious. His new memoir is eat a peach. Chain commented that the only thing that is certain about life is death and the death in fact, refreshes ones appreciation for life. Chang is not alone. In ancient India corpses left exposed in charnel grounds. People actually witnessed decomposition vivid reminder of one's mortality. Stoicism a Greek School of Philosophy. Believe that everything was born to die a reminder to focus on what is truly important, which for them was spiritual progress. Yet. Not every, philosopher agrees. A sixteenth century philosopher. Montaigne. Use that obsessing over death is a bit like putting on her coat in summer because we'll need it at Christmas. But perhaps a modern writer urban yellow said it best although the physicality of death destroys us the idea of death saves us. Time to head into the kitchen milk street to chat with Lynn Clark about this week's recipe. MEXICANS BEANS WITH SALSA. FRESCA. Lynn how are you? I'm great Chris I always start these things by telling you where I went. I'm so lucky which you don't appreciate what I went to. Mexico City specifically to cook beans with a chef, his name Edwato Garcia he owns maximum restaurant in town. But he told me to meet him at the canal. It turns out mysterious. Well, it is a shushing. Milk goes a southern district of Mexico City which is surrounded by mountains and hundreds of years ago the. took a lake and built islands which was used for agriculture. So you essentially have a series of canals between the islands and the food was grown then by boat brought into the center of town, of course, you can't do that now because it's all built up, but the canal still exist you get on a barge early in the morning, it was cold and misty the very romantic and we motored up for about half an hour to one of these islands which he uses as sort of a cooking school is absolutely gorgeous and so we got there he used because Walea pottery pot over woodfire, of course, cooked beans for a couple of hours. Made, A. So Fredo and also made a salsa FRESCA and that was the meal. We have blue corn tortillas with it which were handmade right there. We forgot to bring spoons so we use the tortillas spoons. Got Pretty good at at work because a shovel and these enormous bottles of beer to go along with it as well. You know thousands of miles and up a canal barge to beans, and for good reason because these were absolutely phenomenal. So replicating that here we had to make I guess a few changes, right? We did. So Eduardo uses a very local pinto bean of really young Pinto bean the Pinto beans we were able to get access to really didn't live up to your memory of this magical voyage you took down the canal to the island so we had to substitute with a cranberry being. Very similar in terms of how it cooks up. It's really velvety inside very meaty being, and that's really important here because the bean is really the star of the show media's exactly the right adjective because it feels like a savory meat dish, almost the beans become meet. So the so Frito was slightly different rent it was it was kind of surprising to me. I've cooked a lot of Latin, American food and always use the. So frito is usually onion garlic tomato a little bit of Jalapeno or Guadagno chilly and you use that as the base of whatever you're making at Wierdo does it slightly differently which makes the most sense and adds it at the end. So all of those flavors are really nice and fresh and. Bright I'm surprised. They've never seen this before, but it was really like, of course you would add this at the end. Why wouldn't you want those flavors to be fresh there once in a while I have a culinary moment where I feel like a total idiot it does happen more frequently than to admit. But when he did that and I asked them, he said, well, that's because it tastes fresher if you had at the beginning, it would taste tired. So for forty years have been adding it at the beginning. This is one of those lessons you can take with you. Right it seems so obvious and then at the end at the SALSA FRESCA, which is a Ross also tomato red onion, Halpin Cilantro really again nice. Fresh flavors added to these stupid beans. So thousands of miles up a canal to an island beans with Edward. And this was just a fabulous day, and this is just a great dish Mexican beans, savory meaty, and the so Frito at the end of the SALSA FRESCA and a few tortillas to use a spoon why not and big bottles of beer and big bottles of beer actually referred to them in Spanish as turtles they're about as big as a large turtle just absolutely. Delicious. Thank you. You're welcome. You get this recipe for Mexican stewed beans with salsa, FRESCA AT MILK STREET RADIO DOT COM. You're listening to radio coming up grant Barrett and Martha Barney language lesson on food names, the double as cooking instructions that and more in just a moment. How would you like to learn to make homemade corn tortillas from Gabriella commerce or learn the essentials of French pastry techniques from Dominique on sell or maybe learn about guerrilla gardening from Ron Finlay, the art of negotiation from FBI Alumnus Chris Foss or maybe how to act from Helen Mirren or Samuel Jackson. masterclass is an online resource that offers the very top people in their fields. They have over eighty five classes with new classes at it all the time you can take classes on your phone tablet, apple television or computer, and approximately ten to fifteen minutes in length masterclass lessons fit into any schedule and you can take lessons at your own pace and what I've learned. Is absolutely priceless domonique on sell tubby more about how to bake a chocolate cake than I learned in over forty years a highly recommend you check it out get unlimited access to every masterclass and as milk street listener, you get fifteen percent off an annual membership. Go to masterclass dot com slash milk that's masterclass dot com slash M I L K for fifteen percent off. This is most radio I'm Christopher Kimball next up. Sara. Moulton I will be answering a few more of your cooking questions. Welcome to milk street WHO's calling. I'm Andrew Hi Amanda. Where are you calling from Blandon Pennsylvania? What can we do for you today? I have a question whenever I use candidate chick pea beans such as like in your Poon joppy recipe, I feel the need to squeeze off the outer skin tire you're putting in the pot. because. Like the skin is kind of loose already and I don't like that swimming in my final dish. was wondering, is this a normal process or my messing up the flavor of the dish? If you WANNA know how old somebody is you ask them if they move the outer skin there jake vs because I'm old enough not to care I just do not care. I. Make Homeless Without doing it never bother when you cook chick peas if you cook them with some baking soda in the water and you soaked them overnight, you're talking about can they will kind of fall off on their own anyway but I would say this is a matter of personal preference is definitely your press. Life is I don't have enough years left worry about. Time on my hands no. This is what you care about how you can do. You're not messing up the recipe by doing it. You're just taking a little more time, and if you're happy doing that, you should do it. Okay. Yeah. All right. Keep on squeezing. Yes. Please away or W.'s this because you don't like the way looks or you don't like it just looks feels gross the skins. Yes. Kind of looks gross. You have like just like that skin and. See it when it's canned chickpeas my start with the dry ones I don't usually have a problem with it, but just the canned ones are already kind of loose. So I just kind of bothers me a little bit. Again. The baking soda method tossed that can drain. Chickpeas Baking Soda and warm in the microwave briefly, and then you can roll them in a towel and that skin should come off. We got to rinse them in water. Yes. It's like hazelnuts the other bane of my existence. Is Use a big kitchen towels. You put the kitchen down put the hazelnut. So the chickpeas on it, cover it and just roll it back and forth, and that'll get rid of most of them. That next time. Okay. All right. Well, thanks for calling. Oh. Yes. Thank you. bye-bye. This is milk street radio. If you're looking to master a recipe or perhaps a technique, give us a ring. The number is eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three, that's eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three, or simply email us ask questions at Milk Street radio DOT COM. Welcome, to milk street WHO's calling. This is Joe Hi Mary Joe, where are you calling from? Minneapolis. Help you. Having problems with the blueberry recipe. It's a quick bread. You know and It's just it CA-. I cannot get it to not think in the middle and I've tried quite a few different things. But I'm thinking maybe it doesn't have enough listener in it. Originally, the recipe called for a cup of sugar and a cup of flour. So I reduce the amount of sugar thinking that might help. But that didn't seem to do it. I've tried a couple of different things but. I need some ideas. The recipe is so tasty. So what what else is in it? What are the other ingredients? The major radio? There's a four ounces of cream cheese. And I usually do about a cup of blueberries is an egg cup of flour. I three quarters, Cup of sugar half a stick of butter and then and then Baking powder and a quarter to the salt. When you use the, did you ever use the full cup of sugar and then reduced it to that change things when you reduce the sugar? It didn't I thought it would because it was kinda trying to read and I thought well, maybe it's got you know too much sugar or something in it, and it didn't seem to make a difference. It's still just doesn't seem to want to puff up I made every other kind of quick bread and I've never had a problem like this. It comes out. Okay. And Muffins but it's just not as moist as the loaf usually is. So my friend Gene Anderson wrote this cookbook called the doubleday cookbook. She had the section in there about what goes wrong with cakes and I seem to remember when you know about cakes collapsing in the center that it was usually either too much sugar you already sense that or too much fat. But I also had another question. However, you're not having this problem with your other quick breads. So it's probably not the issue which is, do you know that you're baking powder is fresh? Okay. So that's not I. Think you've nailed it I think there's not enough of cup of flour three Quarter Cup of sugar. You got a cup of blueberries. You've got cream cheese butter, six ounces of fat. Yeah I think you've got too much fat to flour would up the flower by at least a Quarter Cup or Third Cup. And see that does it. The reason the muffins not a problem is because you have less volume and therefore the structural work better than in a big loaf? Pan? But I think just too much fat in this to flower my. Tiny bit more flowery. Everything the same you're saying. I would give that a shot I think another quarter of Cup should solve it. Okay. That's got some numbers in my refrigerator. I'll give up tomorrow more okay and Mary Jo. Please let us know how it goes. we need to hear back did that work I mean if it doesn't work, then don't bother don't call us. Please do let us know because we like to know and we're rooting for you. All right. Thanks thanks for your help. This radio. Now it's time for some culinary inspiration from one of our listeners. Hi. My name is Stephanie and here are some tips per garlic. If the recipe calls from minced garlic, it's way easier to just it instead of cutting it and you end up with the same result. When you go to fry that minced garlic, put it into Penn Cold Oil, and then that way to heats up together and it won't burn as easily If you'd like to share your own cooking tip on most radio. Please go to one, seven, seven, Milk Street, dot, com slash radio tips. Next Up Grant Barrett. Martha. Barnette hosts of away with words. Grand Martha Welcome back to Milk Street Hi Chris. Hi, Chris. So which words are unique confound me with this week. Well, I've been thinking about the fact that the names of foods aren't arbitrary that they may sound unusual but some name simply contain cooking instructions inside the words themselves. I'm thinking of words like buoy. Base, for example, are you a buoy base fan I've actually had it in southern France yeah. I actually had it with my brother and he's allergic to shellfish. So I had two portions so it was. Very Lucky you for me. It's such a lovely sounding word right but it simply means literally boil then lower. It's got the cooking instructions built in right there in the word from French so. means boil right and then the base in there is like a base in English. A B A s e meaning to lower you have base yourself you lower. So so it's got the cuckney instructions right there in the name of the dish Yeah Yeah and. There are a lot of food names that simply mean to cut for example, the word Schnitzel from German comes from a root that means to cut and it's a relative of of words like Schneider in English and Snyder, which means tailor it has to do with cutting once again. Yeah and that's Suffolk so that Is a diminutive suffix, which kind of makes it small and cute, and it's the same suffix on the end of Bagel. Well, I know the Austrians Austrian particular things. Cute. Yeah. Yeah Thatta Cheese F., E. T. A. comes from a Greek word that simply means cutting and again it's related to the word Fettuccini which means ribbons is very picturesque. Right? Well, you'd expect the towns to be picturesque read I mean Oh they are oh, all those pasta names like Fowle, which means butterflies and UB leaky Sacchetti, which means navels Venus sacred navels were. Key soccer. I never heard of that. What's Leaky sacristy. Well, it's Tortellini actually is what we call Tortellini but they call it leaky sake, which is like umbilical. It's like your like your navel it's the sacred navels so much better than Tortellini a lot more sexy, right? Oh, that's good. What else do you have other words that have the food processing their name are words like pesto which literally means pounded it's it's a relative of pestle and Piston. Those pounding terms and couscous also comes from Arabic, a word that means pulverized. That's interesting. Is couscous is it is the opposite of pulverized it's taking. Flour enrolling it up with just a little bit of water into small pellets right So you're making something flower, your building it up you're not pulverizing. It's kind of interesting. Right yeah. It may have to do with the way you got the flour in the first place could be stepping back in time in the production process. So. Let's go back to the original one. We Abass tells you how to make it. I, think that would be fabulous book I mean. All the recipes have the direction the name of the recipe lovely concepts, some of the very long. Preheat the oven to seventy five. Grand Martha dishes the tell you something about how they're made. Right, in the title, thank you so much our pleasure. Thank you Chris. That was grant Barrett and Martha Barnett hosts, of way, with words. You know my favorite words are contra names, those awards that contain opposite meanings to clip to attach but it also need to cut off to sanction is to prove or penalize to bound is to tie up were to leap in the world of food garnish means to decorate, but it also means to take away as in garnish wages. So I think you could garnish someone's dinner plate by adding Parsley, or by taking away the mash potatoes who says that words don't mapped. That's it. For today if you tuned into later, one listen again, you can download and subscribe to Milk Street Radio on Apple PODCASTS spotify stitcher or wherever you find your podcasts to learn more about milk street. Please visit us at one seven, seven, Milk Street, dot com there. You can download each week recipe wash the latest season of television show order our latest cookbook milk street fast and slow instant pot cooking to speech you need. Can also find us on facebook Christopher Kimmel's milk street in on instagram and twitter at one, seventy, seven milk street. Before you go I want to congratulate Travis in on the recent marriage. Here's to a lifetime of joy and happiness around the table. Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio produced by Milk Street in association with W. G. B.. H. Executive. Producer. More Subagio. Senior audio editor, Melissa Allison Co Executive. Producer Anderson of off associate producer Jackie noack. Production Assistant Sarah Clap and production help from Debbie Paddock senior audio engineer David Goodman a digital editing from Vicky Merrick Sydney Lewis. But Samantha Brown, an audio mixing from Jay Allison at Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts theme music by Bob Crew Additional Music by George Bernard Agra. Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is distributed by Pete Arek.

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Vivian Howard at Home: Turnip Run Ups, Hand Pies and Southern Porridge

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

51:46 min | 8 months ago

Vivian Howard at Home: Turnip Run Ups, Hand Pies and Southern Porridge

"I wanted to tell you about a podcast really love. It's called Gastro Pot. It's about the science and history of food. It's also about the weird and wonderful things. We all eat every day. For example our New York City bagels better because of the water or the story of a former slave. Who taught Jack Daniel? How To make whisky? And then he became the country's first African American master distiller. Or maybe WANNA know why American mangoes tastes so bad. What that has to do with George W Bush and Harley Davidsons. They've got that covered to subscribe to gastropod. Wherever you get your podcasts. Hi this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading. This week's podcast. You can go to our website. One seven seven Milk Street Dot Com for recipes culinary ideas around the world and our latest cookbooks. Now here's this week's show. This is most radio from PX OAST Christopher. Today we're chatting with chef Vivian. Howard would discuss your latest television show somewhere south and the real meaning of settling down. We move so often for work and really let that dictate where we settle and maybe we should move for love and surround ourselves with with the people we care about. And I think that's really what I'm not brooded to the soil of deep run. I'm you know rooted to the people around me also coming up. We present a fresh take guacamole later. Then passion tells us about his family's age appropriate version of the cocktail party. The first we hear from Sean Rasping and Lucy Chinon. They're the CO founders of non-food accompany developing algae based foods including a protein bar called non bar shorter Lucy. Welcome to milk street. Hi You guys founded non-food and to summarize it you think that artificial flavors that don't mimic real world flavors is really or should be the future of food in some way. Could you elaborate on that? We think that can be a future. Food I think actually though the core of of non-food is really about using algae and making the most ecologically efficient food possible and they just allow for more creative possibilities. You can make food or flavor into a kind of art form of its own. So let's go back. You worked at soil and you developed a flavor called nectar if you were a flavor wrist but describe what that means in how does one come up with a quote unquote artificial flavor. What's the process? Yeah so for me. I in addition to studying flavor chemistry. I also am an artist. And that's how I got interested in flavor as kind of pushing it as an art form so in the case of nectar. It was kind of you could say a conceptual flavor or the concept was actually using the nasal behrmann which is a fair amount that honeybees use to navigate and they they mark food with it so if they find a nice field of clover flower they'll start releasing the nays Fairmont. Mon other bees in the area will smell that and they'll not be drawn to the food. But the fairmont itself is a molecule it has its own flavor its own smell. It's kind of a floral Somewhat citrus kind of note and so I basically just used that as the flavor for nectar. Lucy. Let's bring you in. Europe curator research an artist You once were asked the question. Why can't you just make an ALGAE BURGER RATE MIMIC? Something that exists using a different starting point. And that's not what you're up to. So what are you up to? Well one thing in terms of trying to introduce algae as like a more of a staple food for me now has become more focused on the issue of people not being used to that flavor profile and that was something that we started to have more insight on when we did sampling events and things like that for example when we sample the number. There'd be people that they didn't think he was any. It tastes like Brownie or Brownie with slightly like Marcia notes in it and then there were people that were just really just thought it was crazy. Some people say you know. I think it's like we. You could almost probably find consistent statistical portion of the population that is very averse to even the idea of trying something new so you were just talking about a bar that people tasted what was the name of the bar and what was in it. Yes so the number is a essentially. It's an algae-based protein bar or algebra's nutrition bar people say it tastes like Fig Newton maybe with some hints of loosen the algae kind of lends itself to more of a somewhat savory the savory side but then there's also a little bit Like kind of more spices. That are going a little bit in the Sweeter Direction Just awesome notes and yeah so by nine bar I unwrap it. Does it look like all the other bars out there or is it look totally different? It looks black bit different yet. If you look really closely it's actually dark green but It might as well be black because yeah just so dense in green calmer basically it has a lot of chlorophyll and optically. It makes it much darker. So let's talk about algae. Why algae why do you think it's the food of the future I mean in a nutshell. You can make the same amount of food. The same amount of nutrition with about one one hundredth of the resources of a comparable crop. So if you type of growing system that's called a closed photo by a reactor. It's basically just kind of like a series of either pipes or just some sort of container at the algae grows on you can grow it vertically and that means that you can use really just literally one percent of the amount of land that takes to grow something like corn or soy or another prompt And that also translates into you know one percent of the carbon emissions as well. And that's you know for us. That's a very important thing. I read that quote. It was the original source of food for all animals and then this really caught my eye produces most of the oxygen and the air we breathe today is that is that possible that right. Yeah that's correct People know about the you know the Amazon and trees they call it the kind of the lungs of the planet but trees produce you know a lot of oxygen but actually in terms of the weight and the photosynthetic metabolism algae that that produce most of it and so what is it you were trying to do with brand design. What what was your brand statement in terms of presenting to the public. Well we went for something. That's kind of clean and minimal. I guess but also a little bit intentionally strange or a little bit like embracing the slight oddity. I would say that's kind of that. Was Our vision for the first brand photo. Shoot that we did with people lounging around living room like doing e coban with like flower arrangements and stuff like that you know. It was the idea of a slightly Utopian near future. What would you do if you didn't have to work? And part of that was because people without protein bar activities. And not just something that you know you when your boss won't let you take a lunch break or something like that and we. We kind of thought about like what would it be? Like if food was very affordable because algae was being used and if maybe society overall was maybe making better choices than what could it look like? That was our mood board. Yeah so you guys are kind of fighting. I mean to go back to the term soil and this dystopia and future were you have this sort of you know unappealing foodstuff which hopefully not made from people but you are actively aggressively playing with that concept. You have a bar. That's almost black. You're just hoping that people embrace it as a wonderful stoep in future Yeah I think that Yeah we're definitely kind of having fun with those Sci Fi tropes and I would say that in in terms of like the actual food footprint of the world right now I think we want people to switch to algae so that there's not a dystopia. Utopia happens if people voluntarily switch to these much more ecologically efficient foods. The dystopia happens if if people don't yeah. We hope it doesn't ever come to that. Obviously well the next step for me is to go get a box of arm bars right. Now I'm going to have to try this and see what I think she has shown A. Lucy thank you so much. It's been a pleasure having milk street. Thank you thank you. That was sean respite. Lucy Chinon cofounders of non-food right. Now both I ready to solve your culinary mysteries. Sarah is of course the star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television. Also author of home cooking one on one so Chris Given that. We've all been stuck calm a lot and eating more meals than normal and perhaps you know extra time. Have you been doing making something that you normally wouldn't make you know? I've become extremely intimate with my freezer. A freezer used to be a place. Where foods went to die in my household they would go and then six months later. I that that was leftover chillier soup. I made you know six months ago. I actually very frequently go in and look. What's in the freezer and go? Oh I got to chuck roster I got chicken or I got portend one. Whatever I'll start with that or some chicken stock so that's really been my adventure and then secondly I'll cook something big once a week on a Sunday maybe beans whatever it is. Big Pork roasted And then you know keep eating it so this idea of having to have something different every day. I don't even mind eating the same STU three nights in a row. At this point I could just add a little bit of different herbs to it or whatever but yeah it's the way people should cook and the way I should have been cooking right up until now and so eleven. We all stylish rabbits I think. Well I think frugality makes the best food. Yes it's always the best food and so you know. I'm like all things in life I have to learn the same thing over and over again but maybe this will stick with me all right. Let's take the first call. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling I? This is Greg Greg. Where are you calling from today? I'm calling from New York. How can we help you today with all of my spare time which I have a lot of now Don't we all? Yeah it's crazy. Yeah I've been experimenting with Bagels the issue that I have is that I prefer dougherty show you know to me? It's just it's just a better flavor than East Bagel but you know it's time consuming and I don't WanNa have to wake up at like three in the morning to get them going so what my approach was is that I would. I make the dough and stretching and folded it as I do with my dreads and things and then I would shape the bagels and boil and bake them the next day but without the basket because they used baskets from my bread and that comes out well. They kind of wind up like hockey box instead of bagels. Put them in the fridge over night and I gotTa do the the day before so I'm looking at suggestion. Kinda had a name that I could do the sour dough aging and such the day before and then bake at the next day. You're going to want it in time for breakfast is what you're saying but I think most big recipes do exactly what you do. They make the dough they shape it. They let it sit in the fridge over night. They boil and then they bake it the next day I mean. I don't think that's unusual. Seen a lot of recipes to do that exactly. I'm not getting any sprained like playing. They're like these are taste really good but they're the which bread you know. So it's weird. Well how much of a resting time do they have? You make the dough and you said you shape them into the rounds before you put them in the fridge overnight is that correct and and then the next morning you take them out and let them come to room temperature before you boil them. I wonder what do you think Chris? There is a method. It's unserious which I go to La. Were they use a Japanese method where they cook flower water in a skillet? Let it cool. And then they use that when they go make the dough because base gelatin is the flour and it keeps them moisture. You know better the next day. I don't know if that solves the problem of holding the shape curve but I think it would give you a softer less of a hockey puck. I'm no expert. I'm bagels but that's the one that really stuck out to me as being kind of interesting cooked flower. You Cook a small part of the flour with water. You Cook it in a skillet briefly. Let it cool. Maybe have a couple of cups of flour. Company have flour and use that as a base and then then when you go ahead you add that to the dough when you're making the dough and that is a Japanese method turning out a very soft moist bread interesting. That might give you a better texture. Yeah I definitely would like to try that. I recently went to Japan and I noticed that a lot of their breads are soft and moist so I wonder if that's what I'm being when I was there. Go to series. Check it out. Yeah I'm GonNa try that X. Chrissa Take Sarah. Thank you take care. Okay bye-bye Walkin the Milk Street. Who's calling this is Laurie from Marblehead Massachusetts? How can we help you? I have a question about countertop storage for onions and potatoes so I understand that. It's important for onions and potatoes to be stored in a cool dry well ventilated area. I also not to keep them in close proximity because gases from the onions can accelerate potato sprouting. So my first question regarding this is stoneware. Obviously with a cover and ventilation holes better worse or the same as storing onions or potatoes and a cloth bag and further which cloth bag performs better linen burlap or cotton. What's your take. I store my onions in a linen bag. I just hanging on a hook. It works great. It has a hole in the top. Obviously and then a drawstring closure the bottoms you can first in first out right the body. I works fine. It should be breathable. You want airflow I think onions you can store just fine at room temperature. Potatoes however should be stored at forty two degrees this much cooler in the dark. And so you're much better off if you have a basement or a dark spot. It's cool I would not leave them just in your kitchen in a ball or a bag. I would put them somewhere out of the way you do not want sunlight and potatoes either. An apples though should be like thirty three degrees just above freezing. So apple's very called Potatoes dark and very cool and then onions. I think are fine at room temperature. Hanging a bag is great Okay well here's my conundrum. Live in an apartment is has limited wall space in the kitchen. I can't really hang anything. I do need to keep things out in a counter. What work arounds could I use? I don't have a small apartments not a huge apartment but I have around the corner from my kitchen. I have this table with a shelf underneath on the shelf underneath. I have a mesh basket with the onions. I had started putting them in a paper bag and at least it's down on the bottom shelf so and I leave the paper bag little bit open. You want some holes lead aeration and because it's the shelf down it's not an eyesore in the kitchen. Maybe you could do something like that. Yeah possibly possibly. And here's one other question lately. I've been sewing face masks. And for those to launder them. I got some Lingerie laundry bags which can go in the Washer and Dryer so those are Mesh. Yeah the trouble with the mashes it lets late in and you don't let the potato so I'd say for the onions. Fine not for the potatoes. Christie went away in. Yes I would say. It's not so much about ventilation which is more critical. The other things just about the right temperature and dark. If I lived in apartment and I didn't have a cool dark place. I probably would buy very small numbers at potatoes and used them up. I don't think it's a place where you're going to keep them around a lot correct. I would just buy what you need. I wouldn't buy a five pound bag. They're not going to store that well if it's not cool and if it's not dark yeah you'll get a week out of it though. A put potatoes in a bowl on top of the refrigerator. Did that but you know it was good for a week at least week or ten days so you have that much time has just two or three weeks. They're going to bed all right. Well thank you so much. Okay they are calling by. This is mostly radio. If you have a cooking question please give us a ring anytime. Eight five five four two six nine eight four three. That's eight five five four two six nine eight four three or email us at questions at Milk Street radio DOT COM. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling ballots from North Carolina? How can we help you Alex? I'll I'll give you the the brief summary until my family's relocation from New York City too suburban or Carolina. I was a Lifelong York. City resident and the food has generally been very good here in North Carolina. Blue having trouble finding decent Dumplings and pot stickers local restaurants neither my wife or I do much cooking and we therefore don't have much desire to attempt making their own dumplings but I have a theory that even below average frozen or restaurant made dumplings. We'll be improved significantly by keeping saw. We'd be grateful if you have any recommendations. On a flavorful dumpling sauce recipe. That can be prepared in bulk and can also be prepared easily just a few angry basic formula would be soya sauce. I mean first of all you should get really good starting ingredients here because lousy cheap supermarket. Soya sauces just not a pleasure so Soya sauce vinegar. You could use rice wine vinegar if you wanted a better choice would be black. Vinegar made with fermented grains sometimes also rice then a little bit of grated ginger garlic. Maybe although that means you can't keep it as long and the third thing that really the important thing might be a little chilly oil of some kinds of Chili oil. Soy Sauce Vinegar probably more soy sauce and vinegar two to one or you can experiment with that and then a little bit of Chiloe L. to taste toasted sesame. Oil is a fourth thing. Sometimes they put into these but those are the things I would try the other sauce. I keep around is fish sauce with lime juice and a little bit of sugar. That's a classic sauce. Those the things I would use Sarah. Yeah actually the first sauce you described is exactly what I would do but I have a question for Alex. The sauce that you loved so much from New York was it. Thick wasn't thin. Was it sweet within with definitely some Chili oil in there? Was there ginger in it? I do not positive though Haha. Well I think if you went with the what Chris had suggested which is what I would do. I think you'd be fine but let me just say one thing about toasted sesame oil. It goes rancid very quickly. So if you buy a bottle keep it in the fridge it will head South. Pretty fast you can buy now some amazing sauces tumbling sauces etc an. I almost never use a convenience food but when it comes to a sauce like this I would look in that direction. Okay all right. Well thanks yes. Thank you so much. You're you're listening to milk street radio up next. We're chatting Vivian. Howard about her new television show somewhere south that more in just a moment. This is mostly radio. I'm your host. Christopher Kimball right now. It's my interview with Vivian. Howard who new television show on. Pbs is called somewhere south. Vivian welcome back to Mow Street. Thank you thank you for having me. You were just one of my favorite interviews in the last year or so in part of it was because of your storytelling. But part of it is the stories themselves And we never talked about your family. Farm talked about growing up in deep run but so you grew tobacco and cotton. Just tell us a little bit about the form yes so I grew up on my parents tobacco forum and every summer. You know. That's what our summer was all about. It was tobacco. Season live fifty minutes from the beach and I never remember going to the beach until I was in like sixth grade. Because the whole family went to work topping and suckering and barring tobacco and that was what the summer was all about and then tobacco went away and you know started to go away in the late eighties early nineties. And and my parents transitioned and became hog farmers and they grow grain to feed the hogs primarily and so that's a whole nother look at agriculture. I'm I I'm a Unicorn in this world because I come from that sort of farming background but Have a farm to table restaurant and and have been a champion of small farmers. So I I kind of understand both worlds so when you win back. Back to North Carolina did was a family farm. Sold is still around. You live near it. Oh I live I live on it. I live across from the yeah on the House of the House I grew up in. And my my father is seventy nine years old and still gets up every morning at four thirty and goes out and does his what what he calls farming but what looks like to me is riding around in his pickup truck. Well that's called gentleman farming and Vermont. That's do I ride around and look at stuff right. You know so your new show. I watched a bunch episodes what I really like about. It is often start out kind of making fun of yourself for you. Were trying to make the hand pies. The apple pies in the first episode and there wasn't working and I love that because there's so many shows where everything comes out just right and everybody looks like an expert but you're starting out the the dough falls apart. The filling comes down. You have to go talk to other people to figure out how to do it right. Yeah I think that makes more compelling story when you see what is actually happening and when things are not tied up in a pretty little bow and and I I for one can't relate to perfection so I like to watch things that I can relate to and I think that we have tried to be mindful to have that be a big part of our storytelling. Both in life and in somewhere south. So when you do these shows you travel a lot. Of course you meet a lot of people. Was there a moment or two? The really surprised you. Maybe not just a culinary technique but something about the people you met. Yes I mean you know. We spent several days in Clarkston Georgia. And you know Clarkston Georgia is one of the most diverse square miles in the nation. And it's become a haven for refugees from all over the world and we spent a good amount of time with a group of female refugees from Burundi and went to a this woman's home and she was going to show us how to pound and then Cook Cassava leaves and this was further grains episode and so she pounds cassava leaves and then she makes this huge feast and we sit down to eat. And you know I. I hardly recognized any of the ingredients on the table but the way in which we were eating was so incredibly like what I would consider southern. We had this pod of stewed. Greens very highly seasoned stewed. Greens cooked for a long long. Tom We had as starch That was in her kitchen. It was food and in in my own it would have been corn bread starch to Sop up those Greens and then we had a platter of braised meat that was kind of messy looking but really delicious and it just it was so beautiful to see how our food traditions that we bring with. Us wherever we land how they're shaped by where we land and how that place where he land and settle how that's shaped by those food traditions and there were so many moments like that in making. This show was really a gift. You mentioned cooking out of in the Louis Book. What is it about her? That was so charming to you and so influential for me like I you know. I grew up in eastern North Carolina eating. What I thought was very boring. Unsophisticated FOOD A move to New York. I worked in a modern southern restaurant. There that celebrated the food of the port cities in the south. And I didn't see any of my food in that southern food and so when we moved back to eastern North Carolina to open the restaurants are still very much like didn't have mad respect for the food of eastern North Carolina. And the cooks. Here but Edna. Lewis's book you know. She celebrated the frugal farmer food and preservation and the simple foods that I grew up eating like I could see my family's table in hers and so it it gave it like validated eastern North Carolina. Food as cuisine or Agricultural rural food as cuisine and it just gave me the competence to celebrate it. You talked about porridge a lot. And I love the way you connected. Mill to grits to whole bunch of other things. And so when you think about porridge. What is Porridge to you? You know I think. Porridge is a cooked grain That absorbs many types of liquids. I think often it's a cracked grain. It's definitely Comfort food it's frugal food. It's morning food. Food at substance. Porridge is something that exists in every culture and every community. You said when you were a kid you had microwave grits with American cheese and crumbled sausage in a skeleton which you served your kids. I guess but I don't normally that that was their first instant grits and we were very transparent about that. I have to say okay so one of the things I love I know in Vermont. There's a lot of people use but of course in North Carolina. I think you are way way ahead of us and you mentioned Turnip run-ups and I was going like what is a turnip runoff. I did go look it up online. So what is eternal run up and what are some of the other expressions us. I wouldn't know about attorney. Run up as the second coming of a turnip plant or a mustard plant without an edible tapper. So it's confusing down here because we call a lot of things turnip Greens that are not actual turnips with the tap root. But the run-up looks like a little bit like Broccoli. Rob Has a little florette. And it's very tender and juicy and just has a very distinct early spring taste and it's kind of a delicacy of this region and talking about expressions that we have we have a lot of words around grains that don't make a lot of sense outside of this place but we call turnip Greens mustard greens. Any kind of stewing green. We CALL IT SALAD. And so people will go to the market and say they want a mess of salad and that means they're going to pick you know a little bit of hint pack a little bit of turn up a little bit of mustard because they're kind of mixing what they think will make the perfect pot of grains so. Tell me how to cook. Collars you mentioned eating collard sandwiches on the show and Gimmie three different ways to conserve. Well the traditional way that you know people in eastern North Carolina would cook them would be to start with a ham. Hawk smoked Ham Hawk and boil that for about an hour hour and a half and then add the collard leaves that the ribs have been cut out of and that was a really like classic way to stretch a little bit of meat across a plate. the Lombi Indians that we film with on the In the Greens episode they take. Collard leaves raw collard leaves and roll them up like a cigar. You would if you were shifting nodding basil or something and slice those leaves into very very thin like almost and then they will render some sausage in a pot and then stir fry the leaves in that sausage fat And I actually prefer them that way. and Vaughn says who is in that episode. She does collared. That are simmered in coconut milk. And you know so many ways to go beyond that even light with some green curry paste and ginger. But I think Collard Greens have been typecast as there's only one way to treat them but that's absolutely not trae hooking anywhere and you wanted to put dinner on the table quickly. Are there things you've learned as a professional chef is a home cook as the mom? Or there's some some ideas you might share with us about you know spending an hour to get a really great meal on the table. I think cooking a whole chicken on top of something you know sliced cauliflower or rice. The rice become so much more flavorful. Because it's cooking under the drippings of the chicken you can also actually do that with grits. Cooking chicken or chicken is on top of grits. In the oven you'll emerge with like cooked grips and tasty chicken and made the most of you know everything all your ingredients. Those are the two best examples chicken. I rice and chicken grits. I'm going to have to go through. They'll thank you. I've always wondered you know the old expression once they've seen Paris. You won't go back to the farm. I mean you went you. Saw New York went back to the family farm. Is there something you figured out or realized about going back home? You know when we're not west started considering coming back here. I said to my parents. It's like I don't know why you would have given me every opportunity in the book and believe that I would move back to deep run North Carolina you because I just didn't think that you know this place would be able to support the dreams that I had but what I like figure it out. Is that a really could not have done what I've done without my family in my backyard without my mom coming over to tell me that you know my hair looked awful on TV last night or that you know her. Dinner at the restaurant was too salty. You know I think that having my family close and having them in my life and in my presence has really Been a grounding force for for both me and my children and and have also learned. Is that place does not have to determine the quality the reach of your work. Let's assume you don't have a family farm. You don't have that place but you want some of the attributes of being rooted somewhere. Do you think it's possible to find a deep run? If you don't come from one I G I think you're deep. Run is wherever. You're your people that you love are and I think you know we move so often for work and really let that dictate where we settle and you know maybe we should move for love and surround ourselves with with the people we care about and I think that's really what I'm not related to the soil of deep run rooted to the people around me. So you've done so much is there. What's what's the thing you have not done or you is Vivian. Howard fulfiled person unfulfilled. Vivian is right now. I would really like to plant a garden and harvest tomato. I have never done that. What wait wait a minute? You've never grown tomatoes really. I've tried you know four years running planted tomatoes and I did get a few cherry tomatoes but I don't really think that counts when you're trying to know that doesn't know I've done for years. Decades of grown great son goals a little cherry tomatoes. I've never grown a great big tomato. I blamed Vermont because there's not enough hot days but it's probably me. I blame eastern North Carolina. But other people are able to do it here but there is something about a tobacco. Fungi and tomatoes. And and so. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. All of us filled tomato growers. Yeah we need to know exactly. But I'M GONNA give it a a real good this year. Vivian Howard would pleasure having you back and all the best. Thank you so much. It was my pleasure thank you that was the Howard chef and host of the television show. Somewhere South Vivian. Howard mentioned turn Lebron's. I had no idea what she was talking about. So I looked into some other southern food expressions. We'll a buggy is the thing you put your groceries in at the piggly wiggly Greens that have been killed have been wilted or cooked and poke salad is made from the young Greens. Poke we'd which are poisonous if not cooked properly. Of course there's also madder than a wet hen. Pretty is a peach. Hold Your Horses and Shush your mouth. The South holds onto its expressions and that is a modern reminder that the past lives on or as faulkner once wrote the past is never dead. It's not even past right now. I'm heading into the kitchen in milk. Street the chat with Catherine Smart about this week's recipe mashed Avocados with sesame and Chili gathering. However you today's Guacamole Day here at Milk Street We've been to Mexico to work with Dan Kennedy About Classic Central Mexican version which is very simple in Columbia. They take hard boiled eggs. Mash them in but in Gaza according to Yazmin conscious the author was tune. They do something quite different in what they do there. Well Chris. This version is Kinda crunchy spicy creamy and sister. See All at once now. Traditionally it's made with Su Mac and that is actually a dried berry. That adds a nice kind of citrusy. Bright note what we know that that can be a little bit difficult for people to find so we found that if you combine sweet Paprika cumin coriander and a little extra lemon juice you get a similar kind of kick so it has some other ingredients that are more typical garlic chili etc. But there's yogurt of this right. That's right Chris. There's some whole milk yogurt which adds a little Tang and some nice richness to it an olive oil and garlic and then we have to serve sesame seeds on top to give a little bit of so crunch Rats Right. It gives them a nice little bit of crunching ninety s. And then you actually drizzle the little more oil and some more of that spice blend Both and Paprika which makes beautiful presentation so if you're bored with Guacamole you've gotten to that point in your life you can try this. Gazan style from Yazmin. Connie it's really good. Thank you Catherine. Thanks to find the recipe for Mashed Avocado with sesame and Chili. Go to one seven MILK STREET DOT COM Listening to mystery radio coming up chat with Dan. Passionate about how to turn any old dinner into a fabulous cocktail party. We'll be right back This is mostly radio. I'm Christopher Kimball nextstep Sara Moulton. I will be taking a few more of your cooking questions. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling. I'm Cynthia from lawn talking to my two favorite people. Oh Car Day. How can we help you today? Cynthia well I have a question and it came out of another question that you got a while ago about whether a person should put their good. Chef's knives into the dishwasher you said of course no and then Sarah you threw out some kind of common at the end that said and remember. Don't use your knives on ceramic because it will all them and I thought what else does knives. I've got all kinds of Cooking things here glass marble plastic word. Which ones do I use? Don't dull my knives when I cut on them. Well think about how hard glass and marble are and the thing about a knife is it has a very delicate and so when you use it on a very hard surface like marble or glass or China. You are just smashing down that fine fine edge so you want to think about the texture chopping on and would is much better surface for knife as is plastic. I'm not really a big fan of plastic. I just don't like it either. Yeah it doesn't damage the way those other hard substances would so I would go with good old fashioned wooden cutting board or a plastic board. If that's what you already have the advantage of the plastic as you can throw them the dish washing machine. Of course you cannot do that with a wooden board but actually bacteria dies on would pretty quickly as long as you clean it with hot soapy water and let it dry. It should be fine and one other thing. I keep a separate cutting board for Dessert. Items for sweet items. Because I don't want any garlic and my strawberries if you know what I mean so good. Why and sometimes people have you know chefs might have different colored cutting boards for Meat Poultry Fish you. I don't have that much real estate so I do have one for sweet stuff in one for savory that really answers those questions thank you. I'd probably realized it was would but I have so many other ones and I just thought man ceramic I never thought of that but yeah okay I would add one thing about cutting boards I used would but I have an extra board that is polyethylene plastic that fits the dishwasher for poultry and meats especially poultry so. I don't want to use my wooden board for that so I will use applies to board throw in the dishwasher done. Sarah has a desert board Iva Poultry Board. There you go there you go. Yeah but that make sense Jack and Jill. Thank you guys thank you take care okay. Bye-bye this is most radio. Have a cooking question. Sereny probably have an answer. Please give us a ring at eight. Five five four two six nine eight four three. That's eight five five four two six nine eight four three or email us at questions and mill street radio DOT COM. Welcome to mill street. Who's calling? Hi It's Judy. Mcclintock from Arden Delaware. And how can we help you? I have a question about mayonnaise which I've been making for years but I wanted to ask you about this very famous sentence in the joy of cooking This is my old tattered copy. I'm reading it aloud to you. Do not try to make mayonnaise thunderstorms threatened or is in progress as it simply will not bind and I found that to be absolutely true and I was way way way now. Now I've heard this before I should. We just talked about it in the office of few months ago so give us a testimonial here. You've actually tried this during a thunderstorm. O Many Times Yeah. I use the blender recipe from the joy which is great. It works very well but it would just spin around in the blender just flopping around and the oil and the Vinegar and lemon juice. Whatever you were using. It's just never ever mixed understanding of emotions. Don't get why the ions in the atmosphere they electromagnetic radiation from a thunderstorm is going to change. Emulsifiers would have to be because some aspect of it has to do with positive and negative charges. Right it's sort of like why salt get sucked into protein and meat because of different charges. It must be true if you've tried it but I didn't think it had anything to do with positive and negative charges. Sarah do you have some now? I have nothing to add food to me. Well how many times have you actually done this thunderstorm? It didn't work. I tried it numerous times and it would even be you know if a thunderstorm was just threatening it would not bind absolutely not so about five or six times. I tried it and it absolutely didn't work out. That's that's empirical evidence right there. You know what this is really really interesting. My kitchen richer is on notice now. We're getting into thunderstorm season. He will try this right it up. We definitely have to test because you sound rational to me. Honest you seem data centric so thank you very much We're going to give that a shot and we're going to have to get back to you both The actual laboratory results and the science right. Yeah and chocolate. Both of you take care bye bye. This is most radio now. It's time for some culinary wisdom from one of our listeners by my name Israeli. And here's my tip for cooking asparagus when steaming asparagus at a very tiny amount of butter to the water. And it will fuse the SP- arrogance with the buttery taste much. Less butter needed this way than adding it afterwards. Do you like to share your own cooking tip on the street and radio. Please go to one. Seven seven milk street dot com slash radio tips Next up it's the unpredictable. Dan Passionate Dan punishment. What have you been up to lately? Well Chris let me tell you about Friday nights. Friday night for my wife growing up was Chabad. The Jewish Sabbath in my family's house growing up we were Jewish religion so for us. Friday night was what was called cocktail party. That was every night in my household was and I have very fond memories of cocktail party because my parents would have real cocktails my brother and I would get Shirley temples and dinner would be a bunch of mini hot dogs eaten in the Living Room. Or d'oeuvres style. That was dinner and so recently. I have decided to bring that tradition back in my own household on Saturday nights because now we do Friday night. Shebab dinner win. Was this just the way for your parents to get out of cooking a full dinner. That's really smart. It's very smart. Yes and now that I'm doing it with my own kids. I'm also realizing it's a great way to sort of empty out the fridge. They always did many hotdogs. But you cannot like any food you have in the fridge that kind of like you don't have enough to feed everyone who lives in your house as the entree but just take it up and cut it up and throw some toothpicks out and suddenly you have a cocktail party it becomes it's all those toothpicks. It's funny you say that because I I actually now. Now that I'm a parent I look back on my parents cocktail party nights and I think it was more like an excuse to start drinking as soon as they got home from work at semi turn it into a family activity. It's absolutely an excuse to drink more need less. That's the concept so we've started doing cocktail party Saturday nights in my house and I've added a new twist to the tradition in addition to emptying out the fridge and throwing all kinds of things out on the counter. We get dressed up in fancy clothes. So so you're actually wearing socks. Your pajamas are my fancy but yeah usually what I do. I just I wear jeans and like a Nice T. Shirt and I put a blazer on top of it. My daughters and my wife usually put on some kind of address really. Yeah and then I have cocktail umbrellas and put cocktail umbrellas and everyone's drinks including the kids drinks and it's a ton of fun and a great way to get rid of all different kinds of foods as I said you know so when one night it's meatballs and then it's hot dogs cut up. Could be chicken nuggets. It could be anything. You got some extra Stale Bread. Toasted up and put a spread on cheeses. Whatever you have in your fridge you can have a cocktail party. And it turns like an ordinary night at home with the people you live with into like a fun a fun event. Well also the Cole Porter Right you need the right music and then afterwards you have to watch my man Godfrey or something right. I mean some classic for my kids. We don't watch old time movies and said after dinner and after the cocktails and Hors d'oeuvres we do Karaoke Karaoke. Really Chris come on it. Wouldn't shock me to find that you were a closet. Karaoke fanatical no. Not If you had to carry oak like like your life is on the line. You Must Karaoke one song. What's on be somewhere over the rainbow? Obviously Okay and you have to hold and what. What would you serve at your at your cocktail party? What would be the food and the drink emptying out the fridge? Well I think you've hit on something from a culinary point of view which is here. You have all this bread right. People often have bred sitting around a lot of it still. So you toast it right and then you you schmear it so you can always put stuff in the food processor. Tako beans whatever you got slice up some onions so common vinegar for ten minutes to make anti stopping some Greens. I mean stuff on toast. That's where I would go and then you know you can connect with other people you can do like virtual hang out you know doesn't you can expand it beyond the people who live in your home if you want to so it's The cocktail party is limitless. And my kids are so into it. I think this is a tradition. It's going to be it's GONNA stick. I like this idea and another thing about this Chris is I often run into an issue. Because I'm the only person in my household who likes really spicy food. And so when I cook an entree I have my arsenal of hot sauces and I can spice up mine on my own with the cocktail party can put an all kinds of different dips your meats your cheeses and veggies and I can put up my spicy dips and I can alter the dipped item to dip ratio on a per by basis and get more or less beach time. So it's really like a whole. It's a culinary wonderland when you get the options to dip into hot sauces and all kinds of sauces on long Dan. This was started out as a heartwarming story about family traditions from one generation to the next and now it turns out is just about you getting the food you want in the right ratio of this is all about you man. I thought this was about family values. Well you know. Isn't that really any parents objective to bring those two things together? I mean I feel like that's like the parental singularity are you. Can you can hotels and children? Yeah yes I think if you as a parent can find a way to get the food you like. Get yourself a nice drink and make your kids happy. Then you are winning perfect. They're happy bartenders. Happy which is you right. And everybody's happy exactly take take it easy. That was Dan. Passionate host of the sport full food podcast growing up cocktail hour was a permanent fixture in the Kimble family at a very inappropriate age. I became the bartender old-fashioned during the winter and Gimblett in the summer. The bar was a small corner cupboard family and take the top was stained with bidders and machino juice it was a ritual away to transition from work to family and to review the news of the day. Dan Pashmina has revived this cultural tradition to include the kids without turning any of them into bartenders. That's it for today. If you tuned into later this listen again. You can download and subscribe to Milk Street Radio on Apple PODCASTS. Spotify or wherever you find your podcasts to learn more about milk street please go to one. Seven seven MILL STREET DOT com there. You can download each recipe washed the latest season ever. Tv Show where order our new cookbook. Milk STREET FAST AND SLOW. Instant pot cooking at the speed. You need you can also find us on facebook at Christopher Kimble's Milk Street and on instagram and twitter at one seven seven milk street. We'll be back next week. Thanks as always for listening. Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is produced by Street in association with W. G. B. H. Executive Producer Melissa Ball Genome Senior audio editor. Melissa Allison Co Executive Producer anisimov associate producer. Jackie noack production assistant. Sarah clack and production help from W. Paddock senior audio engineer. David Goodman additional editing from Vicky Merrick Sydney Lewis and Samantha Brown an audio mixing from Jay Allison at Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts theme music by Bob Crew. Additional Music by George Bernard Egg Loft Christopher Kimble's milk street radio is distributed by our acts.

Chris North Carolina Vivian Howard New York City Sarah clack Christopher Kimball Greens apple Vermont Lucy Chinon Milk Street Dot Com A. Lucy Jack Daniel Dan Europe Alex fairmont Sara Moulton Catherine Smart
The Mystery of the $13,500 Melon

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

51:46 min | 11 months ago

The Mystery of the $13,500 Melon

"Hi this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading. This week's podcast. You can go to our website. One seven seven street dot Com for recipes and culinary ideas from around the world. Now here's this week's show. This is most your radio here. Xm Your host Christopher. Today we investigate the world. Japan's luxury fruits journalist Bianca BOSC. She reveals that a mango can cost two thousand dollars expensive fruit. I think doesn't even begin to cut it. I mean these bear all but no relation to the fruit that we encounter at the Grocery Store. They are perfect specimens. They're almost like Barbie dolls. Compared to humans just flawless and everybody also coming up we re imagine the Spanish Tortilla and we reveal the best way to mellow raw onions. But I it's my interview with Nuno Mendes head chef at London's chiltern fires Mendes latest book. Mike Lisbon is a love letter to his hometown. Nuno how are you? Yeah very good thank you. Thank you for inviting me to show pleasure my pleasure I. Let's get the Lisbon you say. It's the oldest city in Europe. Yeah I mean it's it's it's been around for a while. It's it's one of the oldest cities and it's A city full of history You know a trading city. I mean you know a lot of the. The trading started in Lisbon from so a lot of the sailors. A lot of the ships left from Lisbon. They returned battles and so the goods there. Come in come in and stay in. Lisbon to people so it's very interesting city. I mean there's a Lotta history. There's a lot of. It's quite diverse. Quick Electric Goods Bustling. It's it's crammed luck in top of each other. It's all these like Really Amazing neighborhoods. Each neighborhood is they have their own street parties. They have their own identity. The almost compete against each other in terms of especially in the during the fish dish has got the best dancers has got the vista the best fish motifs so it's It's a pretty. It's a pretty bustling exciting fun city. I mean he goes on goes on all night as there's you know people start their day with with food and definitive they would food and just keeps going and it's it's an intensive funds city to live in so. I need to get there soon. I think you should yeah Baking you're famous for sweets. I guess a long time ago Medieval Times. Sugars were expensive. Suites were baked in monasteries. And convents but You talked about the custard Tart. Which is classic Portuguese? Desert GAUGES. Describe what that is the custard tart. Because it's basically is a is a laminated though puff pastry basically homemade puff pastry the you you roll and cut into little pin wheels news. Stretch over disallow little molds and you fill them up with the. It's almost like a special meal like a IT'S A. It's the best meal with lots of Egg yolks into it. You know would would the nets fragrance aromatics there and then you bake it very hard very quickly so what you get this really Nice crispy burnt crust on the outside but a really kind of gooey sort of creamy center and those who'd be available in a cafe. Is that where you find them? Yeah I mean you know literally you wake up in the morning you know. People don't really have a strong breakfast will have maybe some toast and You know there's not really tradition of teen the morning so they'll have a toast and simple coffee or maybe glass of milk or something like that and then they walked cafe in like around nine o'clock to go for coffee and then when he got to the cafes. I mean the array of cakes so you have the custom field. Donuts you have. The customer targets have Swedish. We too I mean a push. Prides itself will have twenty thirty varieties of of different pastries. Bread I know in Spain. Lots of other places all over Europe. Of course Old Bread is used in lots of ways. Like in a soup. Spain has that famous sort of garlic smoked paprika soup you also talk about breadth thick and soups But you have some interesting combinations launch row and cinnamon other things. Just just talk about bread is an ingredient in how you use it. I think you know the way we use bread. I mean we try to be resourceful with it and and obviously you know because of the fascination that we have for bread I mean we we like to use it at different stages like to use it. Obviously when it's fresh but then we're like when is dry in the we soak it we make Migas with it. Soak it in milk in the fried very hard with pork fat. You wanted to just explain what would migas are for people so Migas. It's old bread. That has been typically soaked in milk for a couple of hours. And then you squeeze all the milk cow and you fry it very hard with garlic pork fat aromatics and economic you know an array of different things. I mean that's the traditional. Typically you serve. Who like with with offcuts of pork and so quick heart clogging a dish. I also noticed you had some really interesting. Really Simple seuss. I'm GonNa make actually the tomato soup in your book This week but yeah I mean look look I mean the tomato soup is really I mean again. I grew up eating tomato soup for my grandmother's place And literally coming you know peak of summer or you know like you know when the tomatoes are really amazing. And they're just digits cooked very simply but the you know the pulpy select they're quite quite chunky and you know there's there's usually pork in there. There's usually a little bit of garlic. There's there's usually meant which is very interesting. I remember my grandma used to used to get a piece of old country bread from dealing TASIO. We used to rub it with a little bit of garlic and inputs a mint leaves from the garden. That you'd pick up on top of the poor the soup over this drizzle. Some olive oil. It's phenomenal super simple. But it's phenomenal. So I'm jumping out of my skin to go to Lisbon now. Okay so you're now in charge of for five minutes. You're in charge of the Chamber of Commerce of Lisbon. Okay I've just appointed you as President Obama garments. Do you just give us sixty seconds. Sales pitch for Lisbon. It's all I think it's all new in a sense you know it's it's such a unique feel about it. They can't believe it. It's not compared to anything in Europe or any of the city that that I've ever seen I mean the food is amazing. It's a. It's a beautiful. See to walk through and to discover I mean it's it's Scott Amazing. Amazing Histories got amazing. Monuments has got amazing artistic expression museums contemporary art. I mean it's hot. It's sunny you know you can. You can basically everywhere in Lisbon. You can sit outside an still new and fresh. He still feel like it's not. It's not something it's not always on. Instagram. It's not all over the magazine. You know it's getting a little bit more commissioner. But it's still fueled fresh. You just got the job. I just started the job as head of the Chamber of Yeah I I need to go there soon. No It's been a great pleasure. Thank you for joining US military. Thank you thank you very much. That was chef. Bruno's his latest book is entitled. My Lisbon a cookbook from Portugal's sitting flight. You radio is also podcast. Subscribe every new shows. Go up every Friday on Apple. Podcasts RADIO PUBLIC. Wherever you get your podcast time to open up the phone lines and take some calls on my co host. Sal Bolton series of course the star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television also the author of home cooking. Sarah good to see. Well Hello Chris. Let's open up the phone lines. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling I mean under ruth? Hi Amanda where are you calling from Blandon Pennsylvania? What can we do for you? Today has a question Whenever I use candidate chick pea beans such as like in your Poon joppy recipe. I feel the need to squeeze off the outer skin in the pot because like the skin is kind of loose already and I don't like that floating. My final dish was willing. Is this a normal process or my messing up the flavor of the dish? If you WANNA know how old somebody is you. Ask them if they move the skit in their chickpeas. Because I'm old enough not to care. I just care I make homeless without doing it. I never bother when you cook chick peas if you cook them with some baking soda in the water. You've soaked 'em overnight you're talking about. Can they will kind of fall off on their own anyway but I will say this is a matter of personal preference is definitely your press in my life. I don't have enough years left to worry about skin sunshine. Time on my hands. No this is what you care about how you can do. You're not messing up the recipe by doing it. You're just taking a little more time and if you're happy doing that you should do it. Okay yeah all right. Yeah look keep on squeezing. Yes we away or is this because you. You don't like the way it looks or you don't like it. Just looks feels gross the skins. Yeah it's kind of looks gross. You have like just like that skin and I only see. It wouldn't canned chickpeas my start with the dry ones. I don't usually have a problem with that but just the canned ones are already kind of loose so I just kind of bothers me a little bit again. The baking soda method. Toss that can drain chickpeas with some baking soda and warm in the microwave briefly. And then you you can roll him in towel and that skin should come off. You got to rinse them in. Water is like hazelnuts. The other bane of my existence I know is use a big kitchen towels. You put the kitchen towel down. Put The hazelnuts chickpeas on it. Cover it in this role back and forth and that'll get rid of most of them. Yeah next time okay. All right well thanks for Kali. Oh yes thank you. Bye-bye welcome to milk street. Who's on the line? Mary Brown from Stuart Florida. I'm so glad to talk with you. Hi Mary I have a problem. Oh no I cannot eat. No gluten wheat oats rye or barley. I have no problem giving up Pie cake. Cookies biscuits but a grilled cheese. I really miss so I WANNA know. What kind of flower can I use to make me some bread? So that don't have no gluten in it and I can have me a grilled cheese. Do you know the answer to that. Yes you can balk. Why didn't say it was a good answer? I use ask you if there is A. I'm now forgetting the brand. It's usually in the freezer gluten-free bread and they have four or five different types in one of them. I know this sounds strange. Has Chia seed in it see? Hi and actually we keep that around the house. Don't ask me why but when you toasted or if you cooked it with grilled cheese it has a really good texture to it. It's the only commercial bread. I found that I think is good is free the second thing can do is they do have gluten free flowers and mixes and they're very tricky because you need starch potato starch and corn starch and some other things to make them work. Mary were you planning on making your own bread or you just wanted to find bread. You could buy well. I looked at the free bread on the Internet and there was five kinds and none of them had a good review. So I said well I have to make my own but I'm GonNa try to one that Chris recommended with the Chia seed in it. That would save me a lot of. There's only three or four brands. They're usually in the freezer section and it's one of the major brands the only one don't remember seeing how it's GonNa come to you now you die. Ud's good to know. I'm GonNa remember that because I find when it's toasted it actually does have good texture texture and that's the problem pretty much recommend that well. Okay thank you so much. Thanks for Calling Mary my pleasure bye bye. You're listening to milk street radio if you have a question about using olive oil in your cake or salted butter at your pie crust. Give us a call. That's eight five five four two six nine eight four three one more time. Eight five five four two six nine eight four three or emails had questions Bill Street. Radio DOT COM. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling hi? This is Gail. How are you good? Where you calling from Cleveland Ohio area? Oh Yeah Bronxville Nice. How can we help you today? yes on a recent trip to Frankfurt. We were in and food court getting some breakfast on a whim. I picked up this thing that looked like a piece of retender slice of tort slightly under an inch high and it was full of hazelnuts and sides of it were all covered in a dark hot chocolate and it was absolutely delightful so I came home trying to figure out if I could find something like this and then I did find something. That's called a German nut corner which is in German Nna Second S. U. S. E. C. K. E. N. And that's more like a cookie. Do you know anything about these types of desserts. And how would I apply the dark chocolate? So is this a pastry crust which was then painted or dipped in chocolate on the outside. Is that right? I think it was more like a cake crust. Maybe like a cookie shortbread kind of thing but it seems more like a cake than a cookie texture of the Crossgar like a grain. Creston cheesecake or something. I would probably say more like a shortbread than a gram cracker but maybe grab prep. Would scribe it so it sounds like it's a pastry crust with not senate grant cookies and butter or ground up orioles which was grounded for IOS. Or there's this thing called famous wafers very thin. Chocolate wafers gale. Does that sound plausible or not so much. The chocolate was probably not so much. The concern on the crust is it was on how it was basically painted around the outside of three sides of the triangle on the wedge. I think you'd have to have been dipped. Yeah Yeah and then. What would you recommend for creating the dipping sauce? That would make a nice. I think tempered dark chocolate pure temper. Dark chocolate is your glaze on the outside. But you'd have to temper it to get that nice shine as for the inside. Was it like pecan. Pie with a little more grainy. This was more course and it probably was a combination of having some small finally ground hazelnuts in the actual dough and then having the hazelnut corser on the top. Well there are. The French have a Walnut Tartu. Which is unlike pecan Pie? It's mostly about the nuts. It's not about to sugar. That's a classic European approach. The name of this was new. Second was that the thing you found. That's as close as I can come. It was actually delightful however it's one of those experiences where the combination of food and the Environment. It was like we couldn't have had anything better. Gail I'm so glad thanks. Okay thank you. So much for taking a collared filet. Thank you this Radio Mr for Kim. Coming up next. We discuss Japan's high fruits with Bianca. Boss Ker right after the break. It's not news to me. That nine out of ten couples prefer a different mattress firmness. My wife prefers it firm. But I like it even firmer but the good news is the sleepnumber mattresses allow you to adjust both sides of the bed independently. Plus sleepnumber also provides partner snore and sleep. Iq technology by the way the bed also automatically adjust to keep you sleeping throughout the night and now scientists found that a good night's sleep. I need over. Eight hours is essential for skin repair blood circulation and some scientists also say longevity so go to sleepnumber store today to find out more about the science behind the bed. Discover Smart Effortless Comfort with the sleep number three sixty smart bed. This is not a bed. It's proven quality. Sleep coming now and save up to six hundred dollars on select sleep number three sixty smart beds for a limited time. Only at a sleep number store or at sleepnumber dot com slash. M I L K that sleepnumber dot com slash M. I L K. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball journalist. Bianca Bosca first encounter Japan's luxury fruit business at an upscale restaurant in Tokyo. At the end of a multicourse meal the chef presented desert which was just a single strawberry sitting very alone on a plate but from that moment. Bhaskar was sold on the notion of super fruits that cost a small fortune. Bianca how are you? I'm doing very well. How are you? Thanks so much for having me? We're talking about expensive fruits. A year ago I was in Tokyo was in the Takeshimaya. The basement where they have a big food court and I saw this melon with this beautiful packaging and it was twenty two thousand yen was almost you know one hundred ninety dollars something like that and I almost fell over in so you've had a similar experience so so what's going on so calling them expensive fruit. I think doesn't even begin to cut it. I mean these bear all but no relation to the fruit that we encounter at the Grocery Store. They are perfect specimens. They're almost like Barbie dolls. Compared to humans just flawless in every way I had my first experience with this actually with a single strawberry that I was served and it was like I tasted and color for the first time. It just blew my mind to bore no resemblance to any strawberry ever had and I had a similar experience to you where I was in the basement of these beautiful Tokyo department stores where a couple of floors down from these George dresses and handbags. You would find strawberries on a pedestal. And they would sell for maybe five dollars. Berry you can find the best for about five hundred dollars a berry There are mangoes that go for two thousand seven hundred dollars which is a total bargain. Compared to the grapes you can find a Japan for eleven thousand dollars. The pair of melons for twenty seven thousand dollars and these have a long history as it turns out in Japan But I agree for me. Initially it just was a big question of why well I I asked the question and my the person I was there to see. You said you give these gifts in this case. She was actually buying one because there was someone I believe in hospital and I said well if they're in the hospital can they eat the fruit and she said no no usually. It's the nurses and the doctors went up so they don't even get to eat it so I guess the concept is this is showing respect. It's a cultural way of honoring. Somebody is that right still a little bit more complicated than that. But that's a part of it. So this tradition of high end fruit really started with a company called Sunday Kia and they're still around Tokyo but they actually started in eighteen. Thirty four continuously in business. Many generations as a discount fruit-seller and then a very enterprising future descendant began to supply fruit to the Shogun this feudal government and from there moved into this high end fruit business and this was a really good market. It proved to be and because starting around the thirteenth or fourteenth century. There had been this tradition in Japan of giving fruit to solidify our relationship so A Samurai for example would give a fruit. Maybe a tangerine to their chief as a way of showing their loyalty. A neighbor might give a piece of fruit to another neighbor as a sign that they expect help with the harvest later on and so you can kind of think of these fruits almost like engagement rings. It could seem almost as arbitrary as paying a whole lot of money to put a rock on your hand right but it has a symbolic importance. There is also a second piece to this which is starting around the late eighteen hundreds or so there became this tradition of. What's known as Hus Sherry? Which is this kind of cachet of the first fruit or fish that you would get of the season and the idea. Was that if you bought that. Kind of first harvest the sort of like virginal fruit that this would taste better that it was kind of bragging rights and also that. If you ate it you would extend your life by seventy five days and so that actually continues today when you think about these records setting prices. Those melons Rochester any melons. They were these high end melons but they were also a Shihri. The were the first of the harvest. So how are they grown? How different is it than what I would expect? So let's take the example of the. Musk melon if someone hasn't seen them in a store they are just these beautiful specimens a lot of them. Have these kind of almost like old. Tv set antennas that sprout from their heads and they also wear these beautiful banners almost like Miss America sashes and they begin their lives for small planted dot in the ground but in seedbeds are planted in greenhouses have air conditioning and heat. This Day. Always the perfect temperature The farmers will initially do a first calling when the first buds begin to grow. And they'll take away any the scrawny buds then The farmers will actually hand pollinate them. So they're imagine kind of over grown human B.'s. Going AROUND WITH PAINTBRUSHES. To pollinate them then melons begin to grow. They become about fist size. And then they get an outfit so you get the melon actually tied to the branch so that it won't fall in any way you also get a hat so you get these sort of black cone shaped hats on top of them. They won't get sunburned and farmers will actually as a way to think of concentrating. I think helping to even out the sweetness Actually massage them. So they'll put on these white gloves and do vigorous massaging way with a hat with you with with calling the blossoms and the tying it up really. I mean well massaging best. Part of this is that it's called and I kid you not quote ball wiping that official term but You Know Lake Champion. Prizefighter is like massage is never going to hurt I guess and then eventually they are picked. Is this all intro? Are you just making this up or is this I? I'm having you know I. I get a little incredulous. When I can't envision this so that people white gloves out there massaging this. Okay appreciate your skepticism. Their videos of this online. You know maybe the answers that you and I are just. We haven't live now. There's an additional calling. That happens once. They're actually picked so. The melons are graded on a number of different criteria including their shape again. Hopefully they are perfectly spherical their sweetness which should be very high then they go to the market and they will pick what they consider the best of the fruit and really only sell that now is. This can't imagine too many other cultures doing this. I don't think Americans would be paying twenty seven thousand dollars for a pair of musk balance anytime soon. But we paid twenty seven thousand dollars for you know a fancy rock right talking about gauge the rock there is a difference DIRAC. Hopefully still there ten or twenty years later and the musk melon is. History is is that notion of something. That's highly prized. The disappears and goes away is the fleeting notion of this fruit. Which I actually find appealing in some way I was about to say. Think that on the one hand. There's something so beautiful about the willingness to and hurt yourself right. I mean these are expensive. Price tags to hurt yourself to provide something that is so temporal. Writers fleeting pleasure in fact. Actually think you know we do that of course with wine as well right. We'll spend thousands of dollars on a bottle of wine and they. That pleasure is fleeting. You destroy it by enjoying it There is also when I was at Takeshimaya. There was a the pints of strawberries for twenty five or thirty dollars and they actually gave out samples and they said that the strawberries were hybrids new hybrids. So I would assume in Japan as part of this industry. They're also refining the hybridization process to come up with better tasting fruit to. Yeah I mean I think that there are certainly when you even look at these. Musk melons right. Like they'll combine. Believe it's different cultivars some that are more resistant to one thing but others that you know bring that perfume and that intoxicating sort of texture. Let's say But going back to the significance of this I mean I remember so at the end of my interview this research I remember. You know puzzling over it. Until he actually came back to New York and went to the supermarket and confronted the grotesque figures. That are the melons that we eat. And you know it initially seemed totally bizarre and a necessary that you would care about the skin of the fruit. That you're just gonNA throw away at the end of it but I think that part of it is to know about the care the first of all went into this creation and on the second hand you know. Why shouldn't the things that we eat? Have a bit of artistry to them. I mean there's one farmer who describes himself as a melon craftsman. He describes what he does as a type of art. I me think about it. We do too often treat fruit and food as disposable right things go rotten. They become extra and there was something for me about elevating this very every day apple. Strawberry Melon you name it into. Its ultimate potential. That when I looked at the regular ugly Mellon I still saw that be ceautiful one in it and I think it's made me treat it with the preciousness that it deserves. Well maybe we should treat our way. We treat our kids. The may not always be pleasing but you do see the potential in them and there's a there's a different way of thinking about it so this fruit This stunningly expensive. Perfect fruit is just eating as raw fruits. Or do they actually do something with it. Why mess with the good thing? Yeah in general these are served. It's a sliver of Apple. It's a strawberry. That's cut in half you know no sugar. Nothing on it just very simple in all of its glory. How long ago were you in? Japan had this experience a about a year and a half or so ago. I think so eighteen months later. Has Your mind changed about anything about that experience? I don't know it's a question I mean. I think it's certainly not something that I crave. It's almost like this is the kind of food that has surpassed appetite. And it's almost more intellectually interesting. I mean I did at the end of this visit. Goto the fruit parlor that they have accompanying to the store and I- splurged on what I think was like a twenty two dollar fruit plate and the banana really knocked my socks off. I mean this banana was the most complex nutty layered mind-blowing banana that I'd ever had. And the musk melon was a bit of a disappointment. I'M NOT GONNA lie a little watery little mushy. Although cool to the just the perfect temperature and I will say that. It's something I continue to think about but it's not a craving that I have you know it's one of these foods that has sort of gone beyond the stomach in a strange way at least for me personally but you did say earlier though just to remind you when you ate that single strawberry you started to tasting color fireworks so so that that's a different experience in what you just described with the Moscow. That's true I mean if I could replicate but I you know I guess part of it is. Maybe I've taught myself not to have a craving for it because I know that I'm just going to be disappointed like I don't know where I would find that strawberry sort of this mystical experience. I mean even in New York which is an amazing food city. Where do I find a strawberry that tastes like color but the point is you never will again? That's that's the that's the sort of existential beauty of that experience. Right one off and now it's just memory but it's a great memory and it's a great memory years from now. I'll ask what happened to Bianca. You know. After after she tasted that strawberry was all down she. She never recovered her. Life was just a disappointment for that day. Hopefully not omit maybe may be. We're not quite sure yet. It's been a real pleasure It's a great story and Like to have you back again some day. Thank you thank you so much. That was journalist. Bianca Bosca her article for slate and roads and kingdoms is called. Why should abandon cost as much as a car? I visited Tokyo recently. Shocked at the Takeshimaya Food Court where there is in fact a large display of very expensive fruit. I found a melon for twenty two thousand yen which is just under two hundred bucks and a pint of strawberries was going for twenty five dollars so eagerly took a sample strawberry at it was in fact delicious although probably no match for a freshly picked bowl of old school wild strawberries. You know in Vermont. Neighbors balanced their debts by dropping off. Casseroles A quarter split water. Maybe by planting field in Tokyo. They give two hundred dollar melons. A Buck Dancer's choice. That means that every culture gets to choose their own form of psychic payback cold. Winter's Day in Vermont however I hope that my neighbor show up with the cord of wood and not the perfect Mellon. It's time to chat with Lynn Clark about this week's recipe potato and Eggplant Tortilla Hispaniola. Lynn how are you? I'm great Chris. Spanish tortilla todd cooking in a skillet on top of the stove takes just a few minutes served as a little squares where you can actually serve a slice for supper but you had something else in mind. You're going to add something else to this. Other than onion potato and eggs right. It's really simple so we didn't want to go too crazy here But we added eggplant. We had it this way. In Spain we really liked it. It added a little bit of extra flavor but it also added a little bit more substance to it So if you're GONNA use EGGPLANT HERE. We wanted to use Chinese eggplant or Japanese. Eggplant has a thinner skin Italian globe. Eggplant you can use those. You just have appeal it first so now instead of quick cooking for todd. I'M GONNA go cook eggplant for an hour. I'm getting nervous. I knew you were going to ask this so we knew we weren't going to be able to do that. Or You would definitely send us back to the kitchen so we started out cooking it over medium. Low Heat took about thirty minutes to get the vegetables we wanted. We wanted them really. Nice and Brown and caramelized added really nice sweetness to the Tortilla to speed it up. We put it over medium high heat but we cover it and what that does it allows the vegetables to cook through but allows them to get brown without burning. You don't cover it. There's too much. Evaporation and it will burn in the Big Question. Is How long does that take? That takes only ten minutes. Well that's okay. That's under my fifteen minutes. Time rule so the vegetables are in the pan that the potatoes and the eggplant then the eggs going. That's right so we have eggs parsley salt and pepper. That just gets over the top normally a Tortilla SPAGNUOLA. You'd have to flip it out of the PAN and put back in which is a little tricky if you're not used to doing that Ours we cook stove top Let it set on the bottom then. Transfer to the oven and that's where it finishes cooking so you don't have to turn it out and turn it back in there. It just all stay right in the skillet cheaters. Paradise exactly always cook the top end. The body works so instead of regular spinach tortilla which eggs onions and potato. We added Eggplant to make a little hardier but not more time consuming. Thank you Lynn. You're on Chris. You can get this recipe for potato eggplant Tortilla Espanola at one seven seven milk street dot com You're listening to millstream radio coming up. Dan Patch tried to teach me how to love buffets. We'll be right back. This is your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. Now it's time to hear from our listeners with my co-host Sara Moulton Sarah. Are you ready to go? I am ready to take those questions. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling this is Gary. I'm calling from Chevy Chase Maryland. Well how are you very good First of all I want to say a huge fan of your cooking shows for a lot of years and I I was really excited to see the Milk Street. Now is You know focusing more on cuisines from around the world. I'm especially excited for the recipes in Southeast Asia and I noticed that a lot of the recipes call for soccer. I'm Kinda novice with this and I was wondering if you could recommend any particular brands for cooking and if there's any substitutions I think it's very much like buying white wine in French cooking. You don't wanNA cooking wine or cooking Sokha. You want something you'd like to drink and the other thing about sake. I'm no expert but actually the fresher. The better is age. Well so yeah and so you just want somebody you want to drink. Now there's lots of different an infinite number of choices. Some very floral fruity summer very dry and some of them are very expensive. Some of their not. I'd find something you enjoy drinking. Just use that as you would for like a white wine for French cooking. Don't keep too much of around long time as age. Well on the bottle okay. Okay the great and there's no substitution at all that you'd recommend you couldn't swap out. Say Dry Wine. Yes you could. Well I was GonNa say I might do the Ol- Julia thing for move. Oh here we go dry white for moves. Yes as well it in the fridge it's a fortified wine. It certainly does not taste like sake but I think it would fine. You know there's also Mirren and Shushing the Chinese rice wine with a shushing is very much like Sherry for dark. It's very different. It's not light in now. Sounds like you can get sake so you might as well but you know Julia even used Vermouth as a substitute for white wine when she didn't have it. And you can use it by the way if you're steaming. Lot of recipes steamed fish. Kill it when you put some lemon slices or parsley stems underneath it. You might use half a cup of white wine or a cop in a skillet so if you wanted to use it up. That's a great way to steam salmon and ten or eleven minutes something like that. Okay thank you. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling hi? This is Josh from Chicago are you. I'm doing fantastic. Good help you well. I'm calling because I am trying up my spice game I For such a long time had the typical spices my saltzman peppers maybe on occasion. I'll go crazy now. Some dried Oregano cumin. So I thought I would actually Kinda break the mold this and try and build out that spice rack. That's been for too long empty and I'm just trying to figure out. How does the guy kind of build out the spices and you know whereas they start? And what are some of the more interesting spices that one should have in their repertoire? I'll give you five or six spices vices. I think you should get you mentioned cumin coriander. You should definitely have those. I would have them ground and whole seeds a lot of recipes. I use them whole or you toast them hole in a skillet for a couple minutes and then grind them up and you get lots more flavors for Pepper Aleppo pepper and earth pepper. Aleppo is particularly useful. It's a little fruity. It's hot. It's using a lot of recipes around the Middle East a smoked Paprika. You can use water old bread in some garlic and make a soup with smoked Paprika. That's great Turmeric I zoom. You have around but make sure you have that and then to others supermac which is a lemony and sour. At the same time. It's used a lot in middle eastern cooking and the last would be Sichuan pepper corns. Because they give you that sort of numbing experience in the mouth which is really unique is used. In a lot of cooking so cumin coriander cardamom Aleppo smoked Paprika Turmeric supermac Sichuan pepper corns. That's more than five. But that's my list Josh. What are you going to be? Cooking traditionally mostly dude. I'm trying to break out of that mold. I'd have to suggestions saute onions with some oil. Cook them and add the spices with the onions at the beginning to develop some flavor so no matter what us don't just throw everything in and you can use coal pan with coldwell. Put the onions in. And then add your cumin coriander whatever you want in developed after seven or eight minutes secondly when you're finished with your dish take a little bit of oil just like grapeseed oil could be olive oil. Take a little bit of Spice Like Aleppo. Pepper would work or you could use turmeric or whatever you want and infuse that on top of the stove just warm up the oil with the pepper in it for a couple of minutes and then drizzle it over each serving when you serve it. It's called Tarkett. T. A. R. K. It's used in Indian cooking. Those two things should up your game substantially because you get a lot more flavor at the beginning and at the end well I agree with cooking things in oil and also finishing spices as well but I would love you to learn the flavor profile of each one of these spices. So I'd almost say take one at a time and cooking little oil and taste it and see how you like it. This is a new concept for me. A flavor profile. Well this is wonderful. Well a lot of fun with this. All now feel less intimidated. When I walked down that spice file. You should don't worry about charge. Yes throw your shoulders back. Yes Josh look forward marshawn okay. Thanks for all right. Thank you thank you very much care by. You're listening to milk street radio. If you have a question give us a ring. Eight five five four two six nine eight four three. That's eight five five four two six nine eight four three or email us at questions at mill street radio DOT COM. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling hi? This is Mitch Gibbs from Phoenix. I Mitch how are you hi Mitch. I'm doing great. I am thrilled to talk to you. Guys and thankful for everything you do for home cooks and I'm hoping to enlist you or convert to my cause which is to do away with leaving tails on shrimp in dishes where it makes no sense. Meaning you're not a fan. Why do it am not if if it serves the purpose as a handle like a shrimp cocktail or a Fried Shrimp appetizer? It's great but I feel terrorized by shrimp cocktails in you know Jambalaya Pasta dishes. Things eaten with utensils and I have to make a decision between leaving delicious shrimp behind or mortifying my wife by getting messier and more hands on than appropriate when in public I get terrorized by a lot of things. But I'm I'm not sure this would make the top ten list but you know what yeah? I agree with YOU UNLESS SHRIMP COCKTAIL. Where the tail comes in handy like a drum. Probably it's left on is maybe partially for appearance but also because that last joint that last part of the shrimp is so hard to get off without pulling off all the meat. It's just frustrating. But you know what Mitch I've started doing. I've just started eating shell. I figured what the heck what the. Hey I just eat it with the that little bit of meat underneath so when you get a steak delete skin onto. Well that's different. It's not adjustable very digestible. I'm sitting here. Looking very healthy. Are night well. There is the the salt and pepper. Shrimp right where you do. Actually coat the outside. Then you eat the whole thing but it has to be a fairly thin show. Well this is true. Yeah Yeah my wife gives me look if I eat the tails as well? So maybe that's the issue but I've heard the appearance argument but it feels like it's just not diner centered now and I. I feel like removing the tales to that Person eating as a better experience. I think we're all in agreement here. This is one of the few times someone's called and Sarah have said thank you come by. Well do it your way. Yeah I'm with you. You can take that off your terrorism list. Tell you why that we agree with you. Yeah Wonderful Okay. Go for all right. This is the most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. It's time for this week's Milk Street basic. You know if you love onions and Burgers Salads Tacos like I do and you don't love their Akron Bite. Here's a quick tip. Salt them generously with kosher salt and then massage them with your fingers for just a minute. Wait ten minutes. And then served the salt softens the onions fibrous texture and mellows the sharpness of their flavor for more tips and ideas. Please visit us at one. Seventy-seven MILK STREET DOT COM. I'm Christopher Kimball. You're listening to milk street. Radio next up its regular contributor and troublemaker. Din Passionate Dan are you. I'm doing all right. Chris. Been I'm good you know. I'm always hesitant to ask. What do you have for me this week? Are you a big Fan of Buffets Chris? I love buffets? That's exactly what I expected you to say. Is that a result of your puritanical. New England upbringing while the two reasons The the reason that I would put forth publicly is that it is like a swimming pool. You know it's excess excessive display of wealth and food. The real reason is I can't ever make up my mind and so I always make terrible choices. End Up depressed to me well. That's Great Chris. Because I'm here to help you. I'm going to help you. Learn to love buffets. We're going to talk today about proper buffets strategy how to approach a buffet to get your money's worth to get deliciousness and to not feel incredibly gross and or like you've been ripped off okay step. One is what one of the most valuable lessons? My mother ever taught me in life survey the entire buffet. Before you start taking anything. That's the first thing. Now keep in mind that the buffet has been designed to trip you up. It has been designed to make as much money as possible off of you by getting you to spend as much money while eating the cheapest food possible. The first few things right next to the plates are going to be the cheapest filler. The rolls the giant Tub of Romaine Lettuce The the heaping barrel of rice. Look if you if you want rice fine get what you want but just just be aware you know. Just think about what you're doing and and survey all the options the first time through what you WanNa do is take little bits of a lot of different things. This is your your sampler course. Oh that's a good idea. You don't WanNa waste like you may have to chuck one or two things but we don't. We don't WanNa be excessive in food waste. So don't take tons of anything until you're sure that you like it. Take little bits of a lot of things you bring it back you snack. You taste you sample you pick. What are the best things here here? My two problems one is the most expensive food. Protein isn't necessarily the best right in other words. If you just go for for dollar value you may not be getting the best thing they serve and the second thing the real problem I think is when the Jello salad next to the chicken. Teriyaki your plate. It encourages unwanted bedfellows. I think you have to choose foods that in aggregate play well together. Is that a problem. I I think you're one hundred percent right. That's a very astute observation. Yes I think that we even. When you're picking your sampler course yes you need to think about what goes together on the plate. What's GonNa go together in your stomach? What what might go one after another right but I want to be clear. I'm not saying you should just go for the high dollar value items simply to get your money's worth like the goal of any meal is to seek pleasure so you should enjoy it and if what makes you happiest in the world as a giant bowl of white rice and Romain Lettuce then that's what you should eat but you probably shouldn't be paying forty dollars a person whatever it costs at a expensive buffet to eat that like. Just go and make that at home for fifty cents. What if there's twenty things in the buffet in one of them is spectacular? Okay should you just eat the best thing there and not try to eat the eight pretty good things? Should you focus on one or two dishes? If it turns out in your sampler those are the best yeah I eat. What's GonNa make you happy? But just don't you especially when you see so much food? I think some of us can get what the term is flummoxed by the paradox of choice we all think we want more options in life. But actually there's a lot of research shows that most of us don't and we like when other people make decisions for us which is why buffets can feel overwhelming. And so you grab your play and you feel overwhelmed and you just start taking the first foods that are in front of you and pretty soon you end up with play like what is this. It's not even really what I wanted. And it's not even like the special foods here and so you just need to. Maybe maybe just go sit in the corner. Do some breathing exercises meditate. A little bit. That's totally normal behavior at a buffet. And you know just gather yourself gathered your wits and then you go back into a nice relaxed you know. Maybe you sit for a minute. Don't run to the buffet race. It from an order a drink have a couple of sips of your drink get mentally prepared because you are about to face a great challenge. I think a great strategy but his standard the carving station for ten minutes with your plate outstretched just waiting to get a pound of meat and then you go sit. Yeah Yeah Yeah you'll also you know. The carving station is never I? It's always down in the middle so about half the people by the time they get their plates already full. Well the other thing is they only have one person carving and you have to wait in line for that. That's exactly right. They don't want that carving station to move too fast. Clearly you've thought this through before we go Your best experience at buffet was have you ever heard of the Nordic Lodge giant Viking lobster buffet they have all you can eat lobster so eight. I think like four lobsters and then I had a giant ice cream Sunday. And then just for good measure. One more lobster. That was a great day. What wasn't a great night? Pashmina advice on how to beat the odds at your local buffet. Thank you thanks. Chris. Take care of the spiteful. Dan Passionate and talks about his strategy for optimizing the buffet experience. Which brings me to the topic of choice. The buffet is the culinary world version of choice otherwise known as free will and here in America Free Wills is the preferred stated big now. The kitchen used to be the place where transform what little we had into an abundant life. The culinary rule was rob simple. Start with a little and turn it into a lot today. Maybe we have it backwards. We start with so much but end up with so little. That's it for this week. Show if you tuned in to later won a binge listen every single episode. You can download milk street radio on your favorite PODCAST APP to learn more about milk street. Visit us at one seven seven milk street dot com there. You can find recipes. Watch television. Show order our latest Cookbook Milk Street Tuesday nights. We'll be back next week with more food stories and thank support from listening. Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is produced five Milk Street in association with W GBH Executive Producer. Melissa Ball Gino senior audio editor. Melissa Allison Producer. Any sensabaugh associate producer. Jackie noack production. Help from Debbie Paddock senior audio engineer. Douglas sugar additional editing from Vicky Merrick and Sydney Lewis and audio mixing from J. Alson Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts theme music by two Zero Additional Music by George Brennan Egg Loft Christopher Kimble's milk street radio is distributed by P R X.

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Welcome to the Disgusting Food Museum

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

52:42 min | 1 year ago

Welcome to the Disgusting Food Museum

"Hi, this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading this week's podcast. You can go to our website, one seven seven milk street dot com for recipes culinary ideas around the world in our latest cookbooks. Now, here's this week show. This is most your radio from peer XM, your host, Christopher Kimball. Stinky, tofu fermented shark. Root beer is there something inherently revolting about these foods. Well today, we explore the complexities of disgust with clinical psychologist and curator Samuel west. Who says his work at the disgusting. Food museum is changed people's perspectives on what's disgusting. And what's not? And I started working with this exhibit cutting up durian fruit to give people samples, and I'm just like, it's just it's the smell is overwhelming. But now, let's say it's two months. Three months later. I can't smell the bad enduring. It's it's it's it's amazing. And I haven't tried to like during. Also coming up, Dr Eric Carol demystify alcohol calories, and we learn how to build a better Meatball in Belgium. But I it's my interview with food writer and stylus for Beckham pep ler. About her latest book, a pair of teeth cocktail hour, the French way. Rebecca, welcome to milk street. Thank you so much for having me. So I'm going to start with a dumb question your book is apparent teeth. Cocktail hour the French way. How is cocktail hour in France or Paris quite different than what it is here in America. Not a stupid question at all. Actually, quite a quite a great one. So the main difference between cocktail or French way versus cocktail hour. American way is the type of spirits that are used. So in France cocktail hour is actually the hour of appro or of a pair Tif, and it uses these usually low AB, not super high in alcohol and quite complex and flavor without the aim of getting you tip seed straight off the bat while in America, we kind of think of you know, we end our workday, and we go have a MARTINI or Manhattan earn grow near something that is kind of hard spirit. I here in France. It's more of a you Enger workday and begin your evening with something that opens your palate and opens the night and doesn't necessarily make you forget everything that happened prior to that. That's a good way. Or any of these things you would drink after dinner, or these are all entirely for the Pera Tif our before dinner. So I I think that putting a hard and fast rule, and when you should be drinking. These things is is a little silly mainly because what we talk about with epic chief is what we also talk about a lot with digest tease, which is bitter in agents that either open your palate in your stomach or help settle your stomach at the end of a meal. And so I've been I definitely like take out a bottle of my favorite pastiche and set it on the table with ice and water at the end of a meal and ends the meal just as well. As it starts, it Archer, French friends. Just disgusted by the typical American right? Yes. Yes. Yes. I know and all the rules. So let's do a few of the others quickly. Lillay, you know, back in the eighties in Paris refused. As and I went to restaurant a lamp and at the beginning, I ordered Lillay right? And. The waiter came over with a large class of bilk because obviously I had this pronounced it. And to the horror of of myself and everyone else in the small dining room. So the lay is not the milk. It is something else. What is it? How is it made? So lay is a fortified wine. Brandy is confused with fruits and peels and barks, and then it is strained and blended with local Bordeaux wines. So depending on which variety you're getting it's going to be white red or rose a and then aged and and then poured into a glass over ice and with the twists, and that's that's your life for you. Let's end with three really simple recipes for Goto apparent Teves. There was a bunch of them in the book white wine with cucumber basil an ice. For example. Why don't you pick the three you think are the easiest ones for people to remember that you love? Yeah. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna like find a way to circumvent only choosing three by choosing my first one as a perte shots. So it's basically a bunch of different shot recipes that are Blake small encapsulated little cocktails that you take in one, large sip. You could totally make them as like regular, pour drinks. But honestly, I think that they're more fun to take his shots. The second one is there's a cocktail called miss Scarlett in it's made with red version, which is made from unripe ind, unfermented wine, grapes. But it adds this like high acid super turt-. Almost citrus flavor without actually adding lemon or lime or orange to it. And so the scarlet combines red version you with a Sherry simple syrup some bidders atop of champagne, and what's your third? Favorite my third. You know, there's a one episode that we didn't get to talk about and that's pea comb, and it's it's a very classic friendship era chief it's actually not being imported to the states right now. So you do have to come to France. But it's like this like super thick dark molasses colored aperitif that tastes like kind of bitter burnt orange, and there's a cocktail in here. That's crazy. Simple. It's just peak home beer, which is P cone and beer. And you basically add a think it's a little under an ounce of p comb and top it with a light beer, like a truly like PBR pills ner or something. And it basically takes a cheap beer and makes it delicious you live in Paris. And you've written this book about a pair of teeth. Is there something you've learned which one here in the states could copy maybe about how the French like, they're a para Teves or how they use them socially, or from taste point of view. What are some of the take? Always you think in American audience might want to hear about. Yeah. I think that the the biggest takeaway that I have is that what we talked about at the beginning. You know, the idea of not so much ending your workday with a drink. But rather starting your evening and gathering with people you love either out in a cafe or in your home and taking a cocktail or a drink that isn't going to change so much your mental state. But rather the experience of it will shift the way you enter evening. You also use the term which I loved I don't know if translates into Frenchie said open the evening is that a term in French the root of Pera Tif actually comes from the Latin word that means to open. So it definitely yes. It definitely comes into play in the deepest root of the of the word. Rebecca, thank you so much. It's been a great pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. That was Rebecca hepler author of apparent teeth. Cocktail hour the French way. Right now, it's time to answer your culinary questions. Who went co host, Sara Moulton, Sarah's the author home cooking. One one also starved Sara's weeknight meals on public television. Ceremony. How are you? I'm good. And I'm ready to hear what people wanna know. Welcome to milk street, who's calling this is Lee in Oregon. How can we help you? I was calling because I'm struggling with quick breads. I'd love to make you know, pumpkin, bread, zucchini bread, the nanna bread. But I feel like I have really inconsistent results like when you cut into halfway through. It's almost like it's sinking in the middle. And I can't figure out if it's my oven or something that I'm doing. About thirty six questions for you. So you're go. Londoners? Yes. Usually mixed the baking soda and baking powder, and then use often use butter milk in the mix that's one, and you know that you're baking powder and baking soda or fresh. They haven't been around forever. Yes. So the buttermilk are you switching something four buttermilk like milk, or that's what the recipe calls for. That's it the recipes. Call for usually. Yeah. And I really liked buttermilk. So once the batter's made do you put it in the oven right away? Or is it sitting around? Now, I put it in right away is your oven been calibrated. Do you know it's accurate? I would say relatively I wonder if it's the pain you're using a light color pen of dark, color pan, male, pyrex pan, dark colored pants. Well, okay. Okay. I have a theory. Okay. Which is it may be that with dark pan which absorbs heat, and maybe your ovens a little hot the outside may be setting. And the sides may be setting before the interior is done is that possible. I course, that's. So I would like outside of Julie pretty good. It says I get closer to the center. And then I feel like when I pull out of the Evan. I can't really tell you want the inside to be cooked at the same time the outside is cooked right with a dark pan. You'll tend to get the outside cook facet absorbs heat absorbs seats, you might go to a lighter like goaltouch pans. I use for quick breads lo pans, I like those alive, reduce your oven. Because then the inside will be cooked by the time the rest of it's done or use a different kind of pan or try using light-colored pan. But in any case there's too much heat cooking the top and outside before the insides cooked now if I were the temperature I semi cook it longer, just yes. But that's only if you continue using the same dark pan, I see if you switch to the lighter colored pan than I would say follow the timing of the recipe and the temperature of the recipe. So what happens when you stick a straw or toothpick or something into the quick bread? The center. Does it come out clean Arum or you just press the top? I really touch the top. You know, I can kind of see when the cracks at the top of the bread. If it seems I would get those thin wooden dowels, not toothpicks. They're a little thicker and longer. You can buy them for almost nothing. Yeah. Because all the way to stick it right in the down in because what's probably happening is you're taking it out. But the center is still just a little laundry just may have to cook. It a little bit longer again. I was just lower oven. But you just don't you're under baking. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thank you for calling. Yeah. Appreciate hey. We're waiting for you. Thanks. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye. Welcome to milk street who's going. This is Jim from Underhill. Not how can we help you? I was actually hoping for book recommendation. I've heard you talk a lot about kind of food in historical context. And I would love to read like a comprehensive history of eating. Wow. Well, I just interviewed to people who wrote a book called a bite sized history of France, which was actually quite good. It's a little dense. It's not the easiest read. But had a lot of really interesting stuff about the salt wars and France because it was a commodity that was heavily taxed, and I would suggest that consider the fork by be Wilson. She's great. She's a really great writer uh. So I mean for food of Italy and France Waverley route. Yep. It's a really good one. But you know, what I wish everybody could find is the time life series foods of the world. They had a book for every region of the world. And then they had a little recipe book that went with it. And it gave you an. Overview, and then it gave you sort of the iconic recipes and for lot of countries, even though these books were written like twenty thirty forty a more fifty years ago, they Stiller's pretty true and give the history in the custom of each country. So if you could go to your library or find a culinary library that had the time life foods of the World Series. There's twenty three I think they're fantastic books, and you can sort of take it one country two time. There's also a whole series of books by Mark Lansky salt. Oh, yeah. Milk. He just did that for the show cod was another book cod was absolutely fabulous. I think cod is the best written food history. Book reads like a murder mystery. It's extremely well. Done marker Lansky Kurlansky as a terrific, right? Yeah. Look him up in your bookstore on Amazon, I would say any of the books. He's written about food history or just terrific. They're fun. I agreed. You sit down. For few hours and get through them. They're really good. All right so much. This is really helpful jammed. Take care Bye-bye. This is most your radio. Call us anytime with your kitchen questions at eight five five four to six nine eight four three that's eight five five four to six nine eight four three or Email us at questions at mill street radio dot com. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling our this is Loretta calling. Hi, loretta. We're so happy to be here. Hi where you calling from. I right now, I'm calling from the villages, Florida. And what can we help you with today? I have a question that has really been stumping me my family, especially it's holiday time loves homemade cinnamon buns. And I started making these about about forty some years ago, and I was just a beginner cook. And I just got really lucky with the topping. But one day I made them. And instead of the topping when I flip them over out of the oven and expecting to see this lovely. I dunno. Just wonderful topping and I was so disappointed. And then I tried all kinds of things and could never have a consistent. Good. Cinnamon roll come out of the oven. And so I stopped making them and my family's protesting. So here I am. So the question is what changed before you made? The first disastrous version of sticky buns was the same oven the same pant that anything different. Can my best of my recollection? Everything was the same. So your heating the butter the sugar and the corn syrup over sort of low heat on top of the stove to begin with. Yes. And it's fully dissolved dissolve it wouldn't be right now wouldn't be granular. But something happens in the oven. You had any other problem with the oven in recent memory now, I haven't you're giving me all the wrong answers here. Ryan. But here's here's the problem here. Tell us exactly what was in that topping, I know you've tried all sorts of solutions since then I believe it was like three quarters Cup of butter three quarters Cup of Brown sugar and about a quarter Cup of corn syrup something. I mean it came out. Right. So many times when I first started making this. I have another question is there any chance that you used a different brand of sugar than you had the first time or the many other things that could have been what happened was only Brown sugar was also white sugar. No, it was like domino Brown sugar. Maybe when the time when it went wrong, maybe it was the Storebrand. Well, that that is we sure in it that is where I'm going with this because I understood about white sugar that sometimes the store brand is different and behave differently than the, you know, the domino the one that we're used to. So that's all I'm wondering is because everything else. It's very mysterious. I think it could be the brand. Thing. I agree to was a sugar perfectly soft Brown sugar. Now, I can't sort it out because you know, Brown sugar as you know, is out quickly. So if the time you made it didn't come out that sugar was not perfectly soft. That would also be a problem might have an next time. You make it by a fresh bag. Not just open the bag for that recipe. And see what happens you much for giving me your time going to try this. And I show send an Email and let you know, how it you should absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Okay. Thank you very much. Criss? You're listening to milk street radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. Coming up my interview with San west curator of the disgusting food museum in malnourished Sweden. We'll be right back. So there you are standing in the baking section of your grocery store wondering whether there's a difference between brands of flour flour is flour. Right. Well, actually, no over many years of found that the brand of flour actually does make a difference. In fact, my go-to brand for decades has been King Arthur flower, and for good reason, it's made from high quality, we has great protein content, and it's never bleached. Unlike many other leading brands this of course, means you get consistent results in superior product. Whether it's cakes or breads or cookies so for more information and to see their complete line of products. Please go to king. Arthur flower dot com. Robin Hood is investing at the lets you buy and sell stocks ETF's options in cryptos all commission free. While other brokerages charge up the ten dollars for every trade. Robinhood doesn't charge any commission fees. So you can trade stocks and keep all of your prophets. Plus there is no account minimum deposit needed to get started. So you can start investing at any level. The simple intuitive design of robinhood makes investing easy for newcomers and experts alike view, easy to understand charts and market data and place a trade in just four taps on your smartphone. You can also use collections such as one hundred most popular with Robin Hood, you can learn how to invest in the market is you build your portfolio. Discover new stocks track your favorite companies and get custom notifications for price movements. So you never miss the right moment to invest Robin Hood is giving listeners of Christopher Kimble's milk street, a free stock like apple Ford or sprint to help you build your portfolio. Sign up at milk street. Eat dot robinhood dot com. This is the most your radio. I'm your host, Christopher Kimball. What is discussed in who gets to say. What's revolting, and what's not well clinical psychologist and curator Samuel west? Founded the disgusting food museum in malamute Sweden to reshape the way we think about this complex human emotion. Samuel welcome to milk street. Thank you. So we're just discussing the disgusting food museum before we get going. Just describe what that is. And how many exhibits and give us a couple of examples. Discussing food museum is a collection of about eighty different foods from around the world and to the items after foods they actually exists. It can't just be, you know, bacon flavored bubble gum or other novelty things and in one way or another. They're disgusting or thought to be disgusting by some some group or some people but a third of the foods real foods. So we have to replenish every day or every week some are videos, some are plastic replicas some of the sort of highlights of the museum would be one of them. One of my favorites is Kazumasa it's a cheese from Sardinia Italy. And it's it's a peck arena cheese that they leave out in the barn to allow the cheese flies lay their eggs in it. And then the larvae of this of this this fly starts eating the cheese in an reproducing. So crack open the. Cheese and eat the living larvae the excrement, which is sort of a soft cheese, and then whatever cheeses uneaten. So this is an Mel news Weeden. The tickets our vomit bags with a museum logo and some of these items. I just saw some of the samples I've actually tried, sir. Strumming which is that fermented herring. And a can we opened it at about a year ago at milk street inside which was static mistake. Everyone had to go out. I mean, this is one of the main reasons people gag or vomit at the museum, stinky tofu of had in my one. But I I have to say it, it tastes good is mel's awful, though. It does smell awful. But some of these things like Broza Guinea, pigs from South America, enduring the famous, stinky fruit from Thailand, there, many kinds some of which are actually pretty good. So here's my question. Are we really talking about? It's always disgusting in flavor or is discuss the social concept. So the short answer is yes disgust is can never be removed from the context. The long answer is that. Disgust is one of the six fundamental human emotion. So it's fundamental in that we all have it and universal in that, regardless of culture, or or where you live, and how you've grown up you have that innate emotion and the evolutionary function of disgust is to protect us from what could be harmful foods. So we have a natural reaction when something smells bad to go. Ooh. And you get that disgust of feeling which hopefully then helps you avoid those those foods so in the of of in our evolution. We've added on all kinds of extra dimensions to disgust such as moral disgust. Right. So if you think of lying corrupt politician, you can feel that sense of disgust towards a person or persons lifestyle, which has nothing to do with the original function of disgust, which is getting so in discussing food museum. I'm making this number up. But I think is about a fourth or third of the foods are not disgusting on smell taste visual basis, but more on a moral basis like Foy grop. So it's interesting, you you say that discussed was a survival instinct because it made you avoid foods that could kill you. But isn't disgust at this point, mostly cultural? Definitely we we like the foods that we are familiar with the foods that we've grown up with. So in the exhibit. We have root beer root beer, something. Most Americans would say, well, that's that's good stuff. Right. However, outside of the states people think it's disgusting. It tastes like mouthwash or toothpaste or somebody described as a dental surgery gone wrong. And and so if you're not familiar with root beer, you haven't grown up with you more most like an not find it disgusting. Same thing with chicken feet, like if you've grown up with chicken feet, and it's in his good stuff. And you eat it as a snack. Then you you enjoy it. Whereas if you if you're unfamiliar with it you look and go that's yucky. I think some disguised this is very interesting. Some disgust is purely a thought concept like Ronchi mountain oysters. Yeah. In Lebanon for breakfast. You can get sauteed goat testicles, which are actually if if before they tell you what it is you really taste their their love have. But it's just the idea. So some disgust is just purely idea based right obsolete. Like, you mentioned the que- the roasted Guinea pig. Peru Ecuador the I mean the meat is delicious the difference between eating pork or bacon from a regular pig or eating a roast. Guinea pig. It's all in your head. There is no if any if anything the Guinea pig should be less disgusting. I I've had roasted Guinea pig in Ecuador. What did you think? I hated it wasn't in your head. Or did you actually hate the taste? You know, why because there's not much meat on a Guinea pig. So wouldn't you get is a lot of bone? It's very gnarly, and it's very fatty it's fatty so a piece of bacon. I'm sorry piece of bacon is infinitely better. See that's what you would say. You're more familiar with eating bacon, and pork, you're right. If I growed up in Ecuador, I probably love it. You know, I'm looking at part of the list, and it occurs to me that like the roasted Guinea pig is a specialty in Ecuador, for example, right and stinky tofu in Taiwan is a special Duran. I mean, these are things that are beloved even well age, shark, my guess for some people in Iceland. These are things at one time or another were highly prized and very much part of the local culture. So are mostly how many of these things things that one culture puts on. Pedestal loves and the rest of the world just scratching their head is is that true. Yeah. I mean, I think that's pretty fair to because if you've grown up with stinky tofu, and you love eating it on this street, food and Taiwan. Then, you know, you're very well aware it's called stinky, tofu, you can smell it. So it's no surprise that. Somebody doesn't like stinky tofu and same thing goes for Duran as much as anybody can like Duri on it, it it the the fruit does smell it has a pungent odor. Well, smells, like a septic tank. It's must live. I've a little funny story about during though. When I started working with this exhibit. I'd be cutting up durian fruit to give people samples, and I'm just like it's just it's the smell is overwhelming. But now, let's say it's two months. Three months later. I can't smell the bat enduring, I it's it's as somebody just erased that negative reaction during it. And now, I can only smell the the fruity aromas the the savory parts of the fruit. It's it's it's it's amazing. And I I haven't tried to like durian. Well, here's what's going to happen about five years. You're going to have a dinner party Samuel west will have a dinner and you'll start with so strumming, then you'll have some to Guinea pigs and some fermented shark for dessert you go onto Duran. And you'll just be they the museums are going to change you. That's well, it's already I met my partner in this. Andrea he we talk about it all the time. How our perceptions of food, and what's good, and what's bad actually changes because of the exhibit. And if you look historically, we have changed our conceptions of disgust two examples of that one is the lobster, right? Which is also in the exhibit two three hundred years ago in on the New England coast, our Jillian. Yeah. Yeah. And they were they were con considered food for prisoners and slaves, and you know, in these this period of time lobsters become a luxury food until. Lobster hasn't changed. But now we like to eat it in a nice restaurant with Gusta champagne same thing happened with sushi. It's it's only thirty twenty thirty years ago. No one in this very few people in the states or in Europe would consider raw eating raw fish now. It's on every street corner. So we do change we can change our ideas of what's good and bad food. So I go to Sweden I go to Mel new, and I walk in the door of the disgusting food museum. What do I see? What's the experience? Like. Yeah. So I of course, you get your ticket, which is the vomit bag. I thought that was fun, and then you wonder through the exhibit and hopefully don't see it as a freak show of different strange foods and take the time to read the texts and understand what it's about. And then hopefully when you're walking past them foods that you actually enjoy the you'll go, whoa. What like like I mentioned through. Oh, what's what's that doing here? And then. When you're done checking out the exhibit, you go to the tasting bar, and we have about eight or ten whatever we happen to have in stock at the at the moment. A restaurant has attained specials. We have the daily disgusting specials. So then you get to taste about ten of the different different in which of those foods are most unpopular with popular with your clientele. Well, that's a good question. I mean, the the the fermented Chartres. The Icelandic rotten shark is the probably the the most disgusting thing at the tasting table. It tastes like I think it is like a. Mixture between ammonia and death. And it has a con see. The consistency is an I still list from somewhere. The consistency is a urine infested mattress. What was said to go back to that? For a moment. I did interview someone about this a year ago. They said that sharks reabsorbed their urine. I think that's true. Yeah. There's they live at great depths. And it's cold. They slow metabolism. They're caught as bycatch and is lending fishing industry. So instead of throwing them away. They dig a hole in the ground throw the shark in there that it wrought. And then it's it's all nice and tasty cut it up into little cubes. You have to wash it down with Icelandic aquavit called baron navene black death. It's a whole menu. Here. We we don't offer that I'll goes or poor guests at the museum have wash it down with water. What's number two on the list of of most hated food? Yeah. This this won't be surprising for any American listeners. But for the Swedes in Scandinavians. This is the pricing. We have a Swedish salty liquorice, I love. So we actually my wife buys bags of Swedish salty liquorice we eat that at home. I love in wise that because they it's it's got this ammonium chloride. I think it's called the the the gives the saltiness it's like a crystallized powder that coats, the Chris, I mean, my kids eat it. You know, candy. They eat it all the time. But if you try it for the first time in most, that's I that's actually the number one reason people not vomit, but they spit out into their tickets the vomit bags when they'd try this alternate Kirsch, and that that's the root beer of Sweden and like because everybody here loves it. But then they see it at the museum go. No, no, no. That's good. I'm like, but somebody else. Likes spicy rabbit heads. I saw that photograph that in the in the dead bat would just could you talk about the bat the the fruit. How's that prepared and served? It's a Poprad in different Pacific island nations. But this is from Guam, they they make a soup out of it. And apparently the soup Izzo. Tasty in improved that his tasty that the the bat is almost at least risked being becoming extinct. So you've learned a lot about what people don't like if flip this around if you learned something about what people do like is there. Some international preference for certain things that again is highly cultural. That's an excellent question. I'm all focused on the disgust. I don't give it. I don't give deliciousness much thought. One thing. That's this is this is universal where you tend to think of disgust and deliciousness as opposites on a line. Right. Right. But it's not so any given culture what's considered a delicacy luxury know the best of the best food. They have to offer is often very close to what's also disgusting. So we look at a choice. Tres Oeser is considered a delicacy. But a lot of people find always seems to be absolutely disgusting. Truffles delicious truffles are expensive one wonderful fungus. But a lot of people would say, no it smells like, stinky, socks. So we tend to think of it like, okay? It's either discussing delicious. When in fact, those two are very very close together. If you look at the actual foods in any culture. Samuel west. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. That was Samuel west curator and chief disgust Allah gist at the disgusting food museum and malnourished Sweden. Samya west claims that disgusting is a relative term based on cultural experience grasshoppers hawker, for example, or an everyday snack. Did not eaten on a dare. But does that mean that some things are not inherently more mouth-watering than others? French frizzy salad, for example, isn't that more appealing than what testicles or isn't a perfectly cooked Argentinean steak more appealing than can fermented fish from Sweden. My view is that familiarity and experience makes some foods more able to some cultures than others but for minute shark. No matter where you grew up is no cheeseburger. Coming up next. It's time to chat with Catherine smart about this week's recipe Belgian meatballs, Katherine how are you? I'm good. Chris, you know, most of our travel overseas is what you'd expect we go into someone's home. We cook with them. We bring a recipe back a bit of the culture as well. The history of the recipe in this case one of our editors who lives in Spain. His name is Albert went to Belgium and the ended up on a balcony throwing meatballs wrapped in foil to the crowd, which is part of the summer festival. Will we realize was what was inside? That foil was not an American football. It was a Belgian Meatball, of course. But it's a totally different animal totally different things. So what is the bell Jimmy ball? Chris a Belgian Meatball is a spice Meatball. So you're not gonna be simmering at intimate. Oh sauce. It has caraway breadcrumbs in it. It has all spice and nutmeg and dill. And then maybe most importantly, it's similar Donna sauce with Belgian beer and dried fruit. So this is sweet it's savory. It's a little larger than the typical Meatball. So. How do you make it is standard operating procedure is different? It is Chris, oh, I you're gonna mix together. Some of those caraway bread bits with milk. And then you mix in fifty fifty pork and beef. And then the seasonings that we talked about you want to let them chill for fifteen minutes to two hours, depending on how far ahead, you're planning. And then after we Brown them, we delays the pan with some onion and that beer, and then we add beef stock and prunes and you simmer that down into a really viscous like you said sort of sweet sour little bit bitter sauce. It's really quite nice. So you use the term meat bone prune of the thing, which I our listeners just decided not to listen. But it actually that sweet savory combinations, very milk street. I mean, it's really good. That's right. And I should back up Chris. So traditionally these are made with a concentrated fruit paste, we couldn't find that here. But by simmering, those prunes, and it'll be stock and blending it. We got a really similar flavor. Profile. One the things when I tasted it the textures incredibly light meatballs can be tough. These are not tough. That's right. They're very light. In fact, Chris when you're making these you don't want use tongs to move them in and out of the pan. You want to use a couple of spoons and be really delicate with them we carry through there. You have it. It's a Belgian meet bowl is larger than what we're used to. But it's lighter is well sweet savory. It is delicious. Thank you. You can get this recipe for Belgian meatballs and all of our recipes at one seven seven milk street dot com. This is milk street radio. I'm Christopher Kimball coming up Dr Aaron Carroll on the truth about calories in Oklahoma that after the break. If you enjoy most your radio, please take a moment to rate and review us on apple podcasts or ever you. Get your podcasts. This helps other people find the show and also encourages them to listen. Thanks. This is mostly radio. Christopher Kimball right now. It's time for Sarah. And I to answer your cooking questions. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling? Hi, this is Bloomberg from Queens, New York. How are you? I'm doing really well. How are you? Pretty good, Sarah. I'm very good when they show shoe still I still here. How can we help you? I have a question about baking cakes with all of Wilder's sputter, I baked orange blossom cake with olive oil, and I loved it. And I really like the texture how moist it was. And then. Yeah, then I think the Meyer lemon blunt cake and it called for a pound of butter. So I tried swapping out half a pound of the butter for six tablespoons of olive oil. And then I bumped the baking powder up by half a teaspoon. It turned out great. But then it makes me wonder why don't you see more recipes that call for both oil emperor. 'cause I think. Some people really just love that flavor of butter. I think that's it. But that's actually an interesting question though, because like carrot cake or other cakes like that use oil zucchini and oil as we all know at room temperatures liquid and butter is solid solid. And so well based cakes or moisture yes room temperature, and we'll probably hold longer to your question is if you used half butter and you whip the butter right with eggs for your wish sugar. And then. Yeah, I don't know. I think that's actually an excellent question. Another question too. If you don't mushroom insurance. What does the butter do for cake other than add flavor, but you know, oil and baking powder can't do. Well, if you do that creaming process, it's a form of air ration-. So it provides a light texture. I think that's what else brought her does. Unless it's melted butter. If you whip the butter with sugar, etc. You're just adding air. But what if I, you know bump up the baking powder when I use oil. Does it that kind of do what within butter does? Well, here's the thing. There's also the point of no return when you start tasting the baking powder that horrible sort of metallic taste. Okay. I don't think you'd wanna particularly in the lemon one take out all the butter. It sounds like you came up with the absolute right amount of butter and oil. Here's we should. We should all hang up. We should call. You and ask you can we subsitute? Some of the butter oil. You already figured you've called with an answer quite. Yeah. You did. You did. Here's the other thing. Oil is one hundred percent fat. Whereas butter is only one or about eighty somewhere in there because it's got milk solids and water. So, you know, oil is fattier, which would also, you know, have something to do with why it makes things very moist. And also oil is lighter in texture than butter. It's an interesting dance here some kids depend like pound cakes on whipping the butter butter and sugar for AirAsia traditional pancake wouldn't use baking powder other cakes or things like brownies one layer cakes very often don't use whipped butter to aerate. So in any recipe, that's not whipping the butter. I think you could substitute oil for the butter you slightly less oil than butter is what I would about three quarters. Yeah. Okay. And that would work. But if you're whipping the butter, I think what you did was absolutely right. Which is reduced. The butter behalf. And add slightly less than half again as much oil may be increased the baking powder a little bit. Which is what you did. Okay. So you should work for military. Yes, we need an opening yet. You're good. You're good looking for someone. I don't know that answer. That was pretty good. I like the way you improvise the came up perfectly. Joyce. Wow. You thanks recall. Thank you is. Excellent. All right. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling? My name is doc. So I the previous caller of pulling back kill you. How changes to my chocolate cake? Okay. Then first of all tell us about the original cake just to refresh our memories. And then tell us what happened after okay, I told you about award-winning chocolate cheesecake, and I wanted to know if I could make it a by using buttermilk. Okay. What terrible advice that we give you? It wasn't terrible by. Rides the milk. And it was fine. It tasted the same. It just answer. No, wait a minute. I think we mentioned though that because it's more acidic you would have to change the levon-ter amounts. So did you use more baking sun? Exact and I realized that I used at in my life because I live on a mountain. Oh, am I went to ki was originally at sea level? So I changed the leavening for that. But I did change it again. It's still was to dent, you know. I'm just a different broken don't fix it. Well. I agree. Yeah. I thoroughly agree. I'm so glad to hear from you again. Thank you for hearing for me again. It's always a pleasure to do. Because you're so knowledgeable in full. Thank you for calling. Thank you, take care. You listening to most radio if you have a culinary mystery. Give us a call at eight five five four to six nine eight four three one more time. Eight five five four to six nine eight four three or Email us at questions at milk street radio dot com. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling this is Karen in truth or consequences? New mexico. Are you serious that is the name of a place that is where we live. Yes, ma'am. Wow. Does that make you feel sort of uncertain every day? Well, keeps us on it. Cheese. Wow already. Then how can we help you today? I have these wonderful organically grown we raise. Pigs for consumption. Nice. I have two wonderful inch and a half thick pork chop with bone in. And I don't want them to be dry. I don't wanna ruin them. I'd like to heat a pan of tape panel with olive oil get it. Nice and hot. I would rub. The pork. I with my feets innings, and if I quickly fear those pork chops in a port wine and then throw it into the in at about. I would guess four hundred degrees. Would that finish cooking it on the inside? And I just don't want them to dry out. I do this was steaks chops. All the time start them in a two fifty oven on a baking pan. And I like to salt them. I let them sit for an hour. Half an hour, if you can both sides, kosher salt, bring them up to maybe one hundred and twenty hundred fifteen something like that. And then finish them quickly in a Skillet. So you sere last, and if you start that way, I find you get a lot of good taste development. You sort of turbo charging the meat. It's sort of like letting it age, and then you finish with the Sierra at the end if you see her at the beginning than the outside will tend to get overcooked Seyran at the end. I do it in dry Skillet or just a little bit oil. And then finish. If you wanna take the chops out and add the poor one in butter, etc. For sauce, right, Sarah. Right. I was going to ask you if you Bryant them and the simplest way to do it. You don't need a liquid Brian is to just salt them. I agree. With Chris like an hour head of time that would be hands down the most important thing. It's my last question is now if you want me to do the Brian yes, I can't. But with my seasoning. My rub my Rosemary would that be in the pan at the flashing or while it's in one hundred twenty India oven on it was divine. I think even when you season it with the salt, and you can put your seasoning mix on it at the same time because the salt will pull liquid out the liquid will go back into the shop. And so we'll all the flavorings from your rump. So it will be more deeply seasoned. I've been waiting to cook. This after speaking with you guys. So I'm really looking forward to it. And thank you, our pleasure. Thanks for calling. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Okay. Karen? Bye. Bye. I'm Christopher Kimball. And you're listening to milk street radio next up. It's doctor Erin Carroll who takes a different approach to thinking about diet and health. Carol. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. What's on your mind this week? I thought we went I talk about alcohol and specifically talk about the calories and alcohol because we usually spend too much time talking about, of course, the alcohol and alcohol, you know, I drink an old-fashioned most nights, and I once looked up, but I can't remember what it said. So maybe you can tell me. Well, it's worth. I mean, this is, you know, it's amazing to me because I watch people who are concerned about weight and how much they are eating, but I'm always sort of fascinated how we give pass sometimes to the calories in our beverages. And so the center for science and the public interest a couple months ago, actually, put out a piece where they were pretty rigorous and looking not only just sort of standard levels of alcohol, but also what are in many of the alcoholic drinks that people might buy restaurants. And so they started with light beer, which, you know, given the name you'd hope is low in calories and a lot of it is you get at the bottom. I think you have Budweiser select fifty-five which clocks in his bed about. What you would guess it to be fifty five calories. But there are light beers. Including Bud Light lime Michelob light. Sam Adams lake that are one hundred twenty calories each and you only need to drink a couple of those before you're getting into significant amount of calories. And if you go to fancy beers. I mean, if you have your imperial IPA's or victory gold monkey those can be two hundred fifty calories or more per beer. So again, if you have two of them, you basically get into calories of a Big Mac than I'm amazed. Sometimes again that how I will watch people would be very concerned about what they're eating, and, you know, absolutely shun the idea of having a fast food burger, but would have no trouble heaven too. Big beers at dinner on wind, of course has calories. Five ounce glass away once one hundred and Twenty-one calories reds one hundred and twenty-five. But again, that's only drink one. And that's only drink five ounces. So so let's get to bourbon my favorite alcohol. How much is an a bourbon so straight up. Liquor has fewer calories. If you have one and a half ounce. Drink of. Anything the straight, including bourbon, scotch whisky gin vodka. They're all generally fewer than one hundred galleries lookers go bit higher up to one sixty five. But you know, of course, if you turn liquor into mixed drink we throwing in simple syrup as you would be for for an old fashioned. Then you're just you're adding calories. So you know, could be probably more maybe one fifty ish. And again, if you're having one, and you know what you're doing. That's fine. The problem is, of course, lots of people have more than one it. Especially gets tricky with some drinks that granted I never knew existed. But if you go into a lot of chain restaurants, and you'll order, you know, one of their food fancy drinks. You can get really up there. Chilies ultimate fresh. Margarita has two hundred seventy calories Red Lobster has something. They call a lobster Rita, which I admit I've never had. But that's four hundred ten then if you top it out red Robin has an Irish beer, shake, which has Guinness chocolate syrup and cream that'll top yet at seven hundred eighty calories. You know, God forbid you have two of those. You've almost consumed your entire calorie count for the day. So a couple of six ounces glasses of wine could be two hundred fifty calories. Easily a premium beer could be two hundred fifty calories. So to beers for five hundred and a mixed drink like an old fashioned. Maybe one hundred fifty or sixty calories that sounds about. Right. And the real surprises are the. The specialty drinks at chain restaurants. Right. I also would say like I put the caution out there. If you're drinking craft beers. They can be surprisingly high in calories much more. So even than a mixed drink much more. So than a glass of wine, and if you again, if you're if you're just having to imperial IPA's dinner, you could rack up as much as, you know, a main course could be for many people. So you know, it's almost as if you're having an extra meal a day. So for people who are trying to watch what the eat and are concerned with how many calories, they're consuming. It's probably something they might wanna reconsider. What is the standard number of calories people should consume? I think it's different for men and women is men twenty three hundred or twenty seven hundred twenty seven hundred will be on the high side probably be lower, especially if you're trying to be more conscious eight twenty three hundred twenty two hundred. And of course, it is utterly dependent. Also on how big you are. And what size you are the idea that all men should be consuming the same number of. Calories is ridiculous depends. How active you are depends. What your weight is to begin with? But there are online calculators that can easily check that for women. It's less could be fifteen hundred eighteen hundred again, it's very going to be size dependent. When you say those numbers out loud. You know, the number of calories. You can get from a beer or two are significant. It's important when people are drinking not only to to watch the alcohol, but also to think twice about the calories. Is it true that a calorie is a calorie? In other words, the counting calories is directly related to wait. Or is it more complicated? I think it's more complicated than that. But there's still some truth to it. You know, very good careful metabolic studies have shown that you can figure out. How many calories you're burning day? And if the number of calories you consume is fewer than the number of calories, you're burning you're likely to lose weight. And if you do the opposite, you're likely to gain it. Well, see there is something simple in the world of diet. At some level of these meth, Dr Carol thank you watch those craft beers in those fancy cocktails at the chain restaurants. Thank you. Thank you. Dr Aaron Carroll. He's the professor of pediatrics at Indiana University school of medicine also regular contributor to the New York Times up show. That's it for this. We show if you tuned into later binge lists in every episode. You can download milk street radio on your favorite podcast app. To learn more about most reap please go to one seventy seven milk street dot com there you can find each week's recipe. Watch TV show. Order our latest cookbook milk street Tuesday nights. We'll be back next week with more food stories, and thanks, of course for listening. Christopher Campbell's milk street radio is produced by milk street in association with w GBH executive producer Melissa ball. Dino, senior audio editor Melissa Allison producer any sense of all associate producer Jackie Nowak. Production. Assistant Stephanie cone and production. Help from Debbie. Paddock senior audio engineer Douglas sugar additional editing from Vicky Merrick Sydney Lewis and Haley faker an audio mixing from Jay Allison at Atlantic public media in woods hole. Massachusetts the music by two. Buck crew additional music by George Brendel aglow. Christopher Kimble's milk street radio is distributed by p r ethics.

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Sundays with Sam: NYTs Sam Sifton Preaches on Sunday Supper

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

51:54 min | 9 months ago

Sundays with Sam: NYTs Sam Sifton Preaches on Sunday Supper

"I look forward to reading the news every morning over coffee but these days some finding better ways to start my day in fact. There's a lot of good news out there to compassionate people doing amazing things for others each and every day so when the new season of kind world you'll hear stories of people transforming their communities and changing the world through simple acts of kindness kind world wants to be your twenty twenty news counter programming. A podcast about how an act of kindness can actually transform lives. Subscribe to the new season of kind world now and apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen. This is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading. This week's podcast. You can go to our website. One seven Milk Street Dot Com for recipes culinary ideas around the world and our latest cookbooks. Now here's this week show. This is mostly radio host. Christopher Kimball today. We're exploring the traditions and foods of Sunday supper with the New York Times. Sam Sifted explains why. He's a fan of the controversial. Beer can chicken you why he loves. Easy DOT COM. What I need is delicious doc right now so I'm GONNA use a lot of all aside my duck into that olive oil a let it just bubble away on the stove until it's really well done and has rendered its fat and then I can use it right away or I can use it tomorrow. Also coming up weeks for the flavors of Sardinian herb soup and later Adam. Gopnik tells us why he thinks Montreal bagels or the best in the world. But first we hear from reporter Amy Goodman about cellar door bar in London than we once an underground public blue amy. Welcome to milk street. Thank you Chris. So this is story about underground bars in London. That are in abandoned. Victorian bathrooms among other things. So let's start with the Victorian London. Where were these bathrooms? What were they like? These bathrooms were built all over London sometime after eighteen fifty and it came about because in the mid nineteenth century of torrens used water closets. But there wasn't anything to us out in public so these were designed to be very discreet. They were black wrought iron which was typical of the era with steps going underground. Decelerate the bathrooms from civil society. So this particular place cellar door where is it? How do you access it just gives us a visual image of going to the cellar door? The cellar door is a place that you could easily walk past. It's just at the edge of the theater. District sort of bordering covent garden and the Strand. There's a pink flashing neon sign outside that says cellar door and just below that pink. Neon sign is a set of stairs going down on the diagonal taking into a subterranean bar. There's a red velvet curtain and I was immediately greeted by one of the CO owners Gordon Anderson. Goo Good evening. Welcome to the seller. Do we are a London? Premiered Cavalry and villas cocteau on a short tour? This won't take long. Will it so a couple of steps into the main Bob? We've sort of we say nineteen thirties. Berlin meets New York die. Boss staff are all kisses out in bow ties and jackets? We serve very much. Traditional cocktails we sell snuff suffers eight tobacco substitute that is ingested through the nose and get some very funny looks when we serve it We have barstools in shape lips. We'll have barstools shapes of tongues. Everything slightly different here to a normal par. Did he talk about the process from the beginning having found this place bidding on it coming up with plans for renovating it? It definitely went through a process of adaptation now in terms of the way the building was transformed. There was a lot to figure out. It was a gents toilet until about fifteen years ago. When the legislation fool disabilities changed. And because it's a basement people. A tests could not gain access to the toilet so the council moved that priority on providing public toilets to street level and so these basement toilets. Alzati closing so it was an asset for the council but obviously nobody wanted a sunken basement toilets until particularly my business partner. Paul Kohler came along. He he used to pass. It was boarded up covered in graffiti and looking very sore so he contacted the council and asked for permission to come have a look As soon as we walked in and saw this place complete with his white tiled walls issue rhinos toilets and Genesis Office. I knew and he knew we both wanted to do something here. So the big challenge is taking very small space and making the most of it. Exactly how did they do that? They used the magic of mirrors. So he'll be on inside. The main. We saw fifty four square meters surrounded by Murs. Make kids seem bigger. Some of the mirrors a faceted. So you don't see a direct image. You see a reflected image of a reflection if accents we have all sorts of low level lighting colored lighting lights which sent the floor because Haswell the irrational trough used to be. It's a little bit about smoke and mirrors. It's sort of like being in Vegas. You could easily lose track of time and have no idea what day it is so the obvious question is. Is there a public restroom in the cellar door now? They've gotten rid of the restroom determined into a pub so do they actually have a bathroom there. Well that's the best part of this far. Chris the bathrooms they had been on a trip. Paul Gordon to New York where they went into a bar that had this optical illusion on the bathroom door once inside the bathroom you could see outside the door so if you were inside the bathroom and didn't know you would think that everyone could see you. People who've not been to the BOB before get very nervous. People tend to crunch to cover whatever might be on show. We've had Arctic Asians when people are drunk. They think they've locked the door but they haven't so so the first time is is kind of a shock. So is this now spread throughout London. And there's hundreds and hundreds of these places being leased out. There aren't hundreds and hundreds of these former public lose being transformed because again these spaces are so tiny and if the layout isn't right it just doesn't work for anything but it's enough of a trend that we're definitely seeing more than a dozen of these around. The country being turned into interesting spaces. There's an art gallery for example. There's a members club. There's a hair salon you name it I think. In general the whole notion of repurposing vacant spaces has taken hold in the UK and more specifically with the use of former underground carriages from the London Tube. Many of these spaces are being used for restaurants for shops for startups workspaces. And actually lend themselves quite well. Because there's built in seating so a lot of this really works and I also think this speaks very much to the British spirit of make-do-and-mend. Let's not just throw something out because it doesn't work. Let's actually turn this into something else. That works repurposing. Building is actually a good idea from an environmental perspective. Also entrepreneurs are always trying to find something different for the public to do. The public are who is trying to find something different to do in. This age of social media can't wait so your friends what you found that they have heard of so you visit there. I assume you bellied up to the bar and had a drink. Well Chris. I didn't want to disappoint you by not doing research. So of course I. I hung out with a lovely Barney named Andre who made me one of their classic cocktails called London. Calling GonNa Calling Zeh where refreshing drink muddled with grapes and meant Poso. It has a bit of professional lemon juice honey syrup and very I would say infused in Botany Confused Gender Bitter twenty-four Thirty. So okay it's underground. They used to be a public lou but after a few minutes. Do you sort of forget all that. It's just being in a small bar or does this experience stay with you. It's really a very different place to be. It's really a very different place to be. But that's more because of what the CO owners have created. We're fun place to come down and have a cocktail so very easy. Places aren't conversation specifically with the backdrop. Pervan very common goal cabaret now on. I think fifth marriage with gay couples who met here. Mary's we have straight couples who've met here and got married in the evening when we full. You can't help but meet the person standing next to you in the U. K. We don't talk to strangers. You don't pick someone up at the bar so being forced into the same space together in such a tiny space. It lends itself to a much more social environment which is rather unique. Amy Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks Chris that was reporter Amy Right now. Sara Moulton to solve your culinary questions. Sarah is of course the star of serious weeknight meals on public television. Also author of the Book Home Cooking. One ON ONE SO SARAH. You've been at home. Of course doing probably more cooking than usual. Are you really sick of something at this point? You just can't do it anymore at the end of the road. I know actually because I had to cope with whatever I can find and you know so. That's sort of challenging. I'm going places I haven't gone before. Okay I have two pounds left of beef shoulder than I cooked in an instant pot and I have about half a pound of beans also did an instant pie with a nice kind of tomato. We broth other than putting them together in a soup in the other ideas. Well you could certainly turn them into a wonderful burrito filling or you could make some open faced pizzas mash up those beans and put them on top of Crisp Tortilla and then shred up that beef and put that on top and then put on some cheese and let it melt GonNa do. Let's get started. Yes let's do this. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling. Hi this is Dave calling from Deacon New York. Hi Dave from New York. How can we help you today? I like to buy whole chickens and tosses him in the House and had to take as many of the parts and using them as I can. I saved the skin. Schmaltz was taking neck and save that this restocking tips and things like that but I never know what to do with desserts and hearts and livers. I'm just looking for some ideas on not not wasting those parts as well. Good for you. And you shouldn't hearts and gizzards are terrific in stock. They add a ton of flavor. The one thing you don't want add is liver because Liverpool sort of make your stock muddy and bitter and I've got other thoughts about the other ingredients but let's start with the liver. It's so tasty just sauteed up all by itself. Do you like chicken. Livers haven't experimented with them all that much personally. Okay well let me tell you two things you can do. One is soak them in milk. You know for a couple of hours which sort of takes out some of the bitterness. Get Your Pan. Good and hot whatever pain you'RE GONNA use with some oil in it. And then dip them. In flour mixture flour and cornstarch season them first and then put them in the. Pan Knowing that you have to be careful because chicken liver spit like crazy and then just cooked until they're nicely golden on all sides and then you know sprinkle with fresh herbs or whatever you want and that's just straight up fried chicken livers another thing you can do is saute them. This is French and Chris is going to say why. Bother in a minute so I usually saute some shallots and add a little bit of port wine and then add that to the liberals when I'M COOKING THEM. Maybe a little chicken broth cook that down with delivers some time. Fresh thyme is yummy. And then you puree it. Put it through a sieve and then add some softened butter to it after it's cooled off and then put it in the fridge and you've got chicken liver Mousse which is so delicious on crackers and has a wonderful velvety texture. S for the hearts and gizzards. I would do the same diplomat flower seasonable. I saute them in the French off Adam to salads in like a free as salad with garlic lemon dressing but now. Let's hear what Chris S to say. I don't think it's silly as long as you invite me over for dinner. I think that's a terrific recipe. I'm I'm all for a man I would say dirty rice liver in you know a classic southern dish would be great There's also one of my favorite cookbooks Mediterranean street food by an ISA Illu. She has a recipe for Jerusalem. Mix and she grills the chicken offal with chicken and finish everything with. Tahini sauce or hot sauce and they call that Jerusalem. Mix So many possibilities. I think your idea of the trine. The great yeah absolutely does sound like some great options. Do they freeze like if I want to hang onto him for a while they do? Yeah go have with those interests. Thanks thanks a lot. I've got a lot of great ideas. Now try this is mostly radio. If you have a cooking question Sarah here to help. Give us a call anytime. The number eight five five four two six nine eight four three one more time. Eight five five four two six nine eight four three or citizen us an email and questions at mill street radio DOT COM. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling this is Daniel. Where are you calling from? I'm calling from Virginia how can we help you? It's actually a question I've been wrestling with for probably about ten or twelve years. One of the first things I learned to cook was scrambled eggs and my mom taught me how to do it in this particular way that she herself claimed to have developed over about thirty years. Or so. You know you scramble the eggs and you actually get the Pan. Pretty hot with generous amount of butter in there and then when it comes time to actually tip the eggs in and Cookham usually takes just about a minute. Because you know you haven't scorched the butter but it's probably just below grounding so the eggs really quick when I moved out and went to college. I saw my roommates. We're doing it low and slow. One thing I noticed about this method was that often leaves a significant amount of eggs stuck to the pan. What is the right way to cook eggs and I also want to make it? Clear that Whatever y'all say? I'm not changing the way I cook eggs for you. First thing is we have to announce one the milk street recipe of the month award because you cook eggs the same way we do. You're absolutely right of heat. Could fast the water in the eggs turns to steam? If you do it that way the only thing I would change. This is based on some research. I did into some Spanish recipes. Use Oil not butter and the reason is oil gets hotter than butter. I sell heat up faster and get to a higher temperature and won't burn or Brown and you will get more heat into the eggs faster which means more puffing in fluffier eggs now the French would use the double boiler method right. Sarah they cook it low and slow for ten or fifteen minutes and you probably have some cheese in IT and lots of cream and you get those little Kurds and it's velvety and it is also delicious. But that's a very different recipe. But I I'm with you when I cook to eggs for myself. It's twenty seconds minute. Eight inch carbon-steel skillet. So Sarah well no surprise here that I'm GonNA disagree a bit but I think actually both methods are right. I think that if you want very custody sort of creamy texture low and slow can help you get there. It's much smaller Kurds than doing it. Over higher temperature but I think either way the main thing is when the eggs are ready. They're ready for the high thing if Chris went beyond however many seconds then the egg starts to toughen. And it's just not a good thing so you need to do it quick and get it out and the other thing. I was going to say about the eggs. Sticking is when you do low and slow. You haven't sort of sealed to the Pan before you add the egg. You know like when you make an Omelet one of the things you do get that pan really hot and then add the oil and then add the egg and the pan is sort of sealed. So the egg doesn't stick but when you're doing low and slow there's no way the egg is not gonNA stick. I think my mom read y'All's olive oil egg recipe and tried it out. I very nearly disowned her over it but she said it was very good so maybe. I'll have to try well. You can start with oil in finish with butter. You know why not serious determined to get the butter way or another. You can't go wrong all right Daniel. Thank you good job. Okay thank you so much have me. You're listening to milk street radio up next chatting with the New York Times Sam Sifting about his new book. See You on Sunday. That and more after the break you know. I found him most read to help. Change the way we cook. That means traveling the world to discover new techniques new ingredients new ways of thinking about food plus fresh flavor combinations and new ways to use spices. Right now we're making our online cooking school absolutely free to anyone who would like to join the food revolution you can choose from over. Doesn't classes from kitchen Improv. To the spice kitchen to milk street instant pot start a free class today at one. Seven seven mill street dot com slash school one more time one seven seven milk street dot com slash school. This is most radio. I'm your host. Christopher Kimball right now. It's my interview with the food editor of The New York Times Sam System. His new book is called. See you on Sunday Sampson Sefton. Welcome to St. Thank you Chris. Good to be here. Let's talk about you when you were a kid. What kind of food was cooked? Who WAS COOKING IT Were there Sunday suppers in your household after a fashion? I think there were. I mean I grew up in one of those classic New York. Upper middle class homes of the seventies and eighties were both my parents worked and worked extensively. Nevertheless we tried. My mother tried hard and successfully to make sure that we ate dinner more often than not together and then weekends were spent parameter eating all over the city picking up different foodstuffs from amazing lunches and Sunday supper so traveling from little Italy for bread to the upper east side for him and cold cuts to Flatbush Brooklyn for Special Ginger Beers and we are rattled troppled station wagon and my dad drove around and we picked up amazing food. It was it was a great childhood for food as a restaurant critic. I think you and I actually went out to dinner with David Car And I just found that evening hard. So would you say that being a restaurant critic is sort of a sober profession which is kind of my take or is it more celebratory? The way most people who are not restaurant critics would like to imagine it. I think it's a very difficult job to complain about. Because it's so marvelous to be afforded the opportunity to eat out five six seven times a a week on the diamond the newspaper but on the other hand again really again with a far cry again with the steak again with the fish Bernez. I didn't really feel that it was a grind. I it was a job I I loved although was physically punishing but nor did I think that it was simply a party There's a job to be done in. The job is to figure out what it is that the chef and restaurant or trying to say And why it matters and and how it fits into where we are in the culture right now and where we're going and that part is really fun. That's a really interesting journalistic challenge that. I liked rising to even on those evenings when I thought again with the Ravioli. Okay let's move onto your book see when Sunday you right. There is a sacramental element to Sunday suppers. I thought that was an interesting slash curious. Comment well I think it's true. I I see that in the setting of the table. I see it in the welcoming of anyone who wants to come. I don't know that it strictly religious I don't know that it's strictly spiritual it's probably just ritualistic but I think toying with that idea of the sacrament especially When what you're doing is advocating for the service of food and wine And the administration of love makes it a certain degree of sense to me. You also explained it this way. You said quote people are lonely. They want to be part of something even when they can identify that longing the what is it. They want to be part of something bigger than themselves. They don't WanNa be. I think people all of us all of us even even the recluses don't really always WanNa be alone. All of us long on on some level for some degree of connection and that connection need not be a garrulous conversation. I cooked in a church for years for after service meals and I served plenty of people who just were perfectly content to to come get their food. Sit at a table with a bunch of kids talking and adults talking and not really say a word but Except a cup of Coffee. Enjoy the time. Come back the next week so I know it matters and I think it's not a bad way of living your life trying to feed others and help take away. That sense of loneliness wanted exist. You also Mary Cunningham did this to. She liked to relieve the anxiety about failure in the kitchen. And you write it failed. Dinner is as much as part of the journeys an exceptional meal. Each takes its place to be remembered by all involved according to its hilarity. Excellence which I kind of liked so we even if it doesn't turn out well so what yeah I think one of the greatest Sunday suppers cooked last couple of years involved me taking receipt of some dried beans from a tiny farm and central Maine. And I made this what I thought would be. This perfect dish of Boston baked beans and I cook these beans and I cook these beans and I kept cooking them and then my friends eventually came and we had to go into those beans and to this day we call. My friends has A. Maybe we should have those peddlers so this idea that you know here was a meal that I served with intention and love to my family and friends and the beans taste like little pebbles from the bottom of a stream because they just would not give up That's okay. I love that one of the joyous memories we can have is of that time that the beans just wouldn't soften you completely ruined my entire approach my entire approach to cooking others twenty four hours later if the food's terrible though totally have forgotten it what you're saying if it's bad enough they'll never forget. Yeah I lost for that. I love US listen. You have to embrace the spectacular failure. That's true okay. Let's get into some food Delaware Fried Chicken has bacon in it. I didn't know about this well. There's I use a little bacon two to flavor the cooking oil so you know it just seems to me. If you tell people like we're going to be cooking this fried chicken and Lard they. They've flip out right or they or they don't like the Lord they get in their supermarket because it's commodity pork but I do like a whisper of Porky nece in my frying oil. Frankly so what I do. When I'm when I'm heating oil slip a piece of Bacon in their pieces of Bacon in there and let them get crisp. I can use that. Bacon for anything from abilty tomorrow to a snack while I'm cooking all afternoon with with the Fried Chicken Okay let's have a food fight. Beer can chicken A friend of mine meathead Goldwyn. You probably know who he is here. We go. It's going to yell at you. About beer can chicken because Yup. The beer never gets to the boiling point and therefore this whole idea of steam and flavoring the bird and keeping a moist as he. He calls the chicken beer cozy. Because it's a thirty eight degree. Four pounds of beer cozy stick over your candidate. Yup and Samson would you say well I don't pick fights with guys named meathead But but I'll say this. I never said that liquid was going to Boil I do think that there is a degree of humidity. That comes off their. I've I've cooked enough of these things to know. That liquid is steaming when the bird is done but I think as as anything else is the fact that you're cooking the thing vertically and no part of it is touching pan well no exterior part of it is touching pan and therefore you're getting amazing. Browning and you end up with this Super Super Crisp scanning I use kind of version of that white barbecue sauce that you see northern Alabama paint on there at the end and so I ended up with this beautifully. Lacquered bird that I've roasted vertically That white barbecue sauce. I remember years ago there recipe. That is it sounds terrible but it is one of the best things in the world. Yeah I mean. One of the more underrated condiments in American cooking is man. He's frankly because that fat just melt so beautifully onto meet so in the case of beer can chicken. It provides this sort of gloss on the exterior with Salmon. I take manny's and mustard and make a mixture just spread that on the exterior the The fish and put it in a hot oven and it melts beautifully. Done that with bluefish. And it's it's just incredible. Little man is in your Coleslaw. Obviously is a great thing. Manny's on a piece of bread is a good sound. The cat in hat. Yeah I think you could probably go on for pages. I I'm easy DOT COM fee. What's an easy Kofi? Well dock fee right like if we're really GONNA make it we've patted the S- things dry. We've covered them with spices. We would allow them to air dry for a day. We Cook them in a in an incredibly low of in for very very very very very long time rendering the fat super carefully and then allowing the duck legs to sit in the hardening fat beneath our workshop benching in France and the cool air until we're ready to to eat them. It's a way to preserve doc in a complicated environment. That super beautiful that none of us happened to live in. So what I need is delicious doc right now so I'm GONNA use a lot of olive oil aside my duck into that olive oil. I'm going to let it just bubble away on the stove until it's really well done and has rendered all its fat and then I can use it right away or I can use tomorrow either way you talking about the east coast girl in Cambridge Here in Boston Chris. Leisure founded it and you mentioned his cornbread and I remember his. Cornbread is being very Sweden and almost like a desert. You have fonder memories of it than I do. Could you just talk about sweet cake? Like cornbread versus. Oh Yeah I would call the real thing. Y- I've been lit on fire for this recipe but as a you know as a child of Brooklyn who made his way to Cambridge to go to college. I worked at the harvest restaurant. I revered. Chris slesinger listener and spent all my money at these coast grill and the corn bread that was served at the restaurant. I've talked to Chris about this over the years it's essentially the that's on the back of the Jiffy breadbox made A little more swan and I add Frozen corn kernels or or fresh corn kernels to the to the mix as well It does come across a little sweeter than the kind that you ate in the deep South the correct place but it's a damn good corn bread and you know what he couldn't take it off the menu for a quarter century. So right it's pretty good so you're standing by it. I am standing by it. Okay so of all the Sunday suppers you've done is there one that just Sticks with you for some reason emotionally. Boy I gotTa Tell You Chris. I think these meals stick with me each one in different ways. But you're putting me on the spot so I'm going to remember a particular evening that saw my whole family. My brothers my mom our neighbors the whole chosen family and actual family together and I started it out with a message clams that I cooked In a big steamer and just to have everyone old people young people. Everyone kind of picking out of that same pot and dragging these steam clams through some broth and drawn butter and just laughing and talking with one another in true fellowship is something that will stick with me always saves. Then thank you for coming on the show. And it's been a great pleasure speaking likewise Chris. Thanks for having me Sifted is new. Book is called. See You on Sunday. A cookbook for family and friends sifting talks about writing around New York Station Wagon shopping with his dad for the best. Ginger beer fly buscher cold cuts on the upper east side and I agree shopping. Should be family ritual my by fish at the courthouse market vegetables. Russell's summer produce at farmers markets in Maine Vermont and Cambridge potatoes at Sheldon's farm meet at saboteurs and apples at Saratoga happens these days when travel is limited. I've come to realize that shopping is really about the people you meet lesson learned. I'll never complain about shopping. Again is time to chat with J M Harsh about this week's recipes or Dinnenn. Herb Soup with regular in White Beats Jam. How are you? I'm doing great? You in Sardinia not too long ago and before we get to the recipe just tell us a little bit about Sardinia and Sardinian cooking. Uso Sardinas an island off the western coast of Italy and you think island you think seafood and surely there's doesn't abundance out there. Well in Sardinia cuisine grew up with seafood. And that's because years of invaders drove the population inland for safety and so their cuisine evolved without seafood relying on produce a little bit of meat fair amount of dairy and grains and so the recipe. That really was your number one. Finding Sardenia was one. It's pronounced boot zoo. A which is an herb based soup with a little bit of Pasta and a little bit of me and what I loved about. This is a big bold bean soup that relies on fresh herbs tons of fresh herbs. In fact in some varieties have as many as fourteen fresh herbs to build big bold flavor. And that's just really impressed me so this concept of a lot of verbs something across the world. Not just exactly exactly you know. In the United States we think of herbs as a finishing touch garnish. Something for a little bit of flavor but elsewhere in the world including in the soup. They're used by the fistful. And they add tons of fresh vibrant flavor. And that's what we love about them. So is there anything particular about how you make the soup? That's unusual. He's actually. It's a very simple being. Sue the beans. Usually they start from dry beings. They soak them over in the night. They cook them with a little bit of Cheddar and adding tons of these herbs and Greens many of which are forged in Sardinia and they use a little bit of frugal which is the pellet shaped pasta of Sardinia and that not only as a nice chuminess to the soup but it also helps thicken the super. Little bit they finish it off with a little ricotta. Salata and that's about it any substitutions. We had to make from well from the forest. Fourteen fourteen forged. Herbs is a bit much to ask if an American home cook so we narrowed it down to what we felt with the most essential and frankly the easiest access here in the US. We brought it down to Parsley Rula and Tarragon. We also added fennel seeds which is not a traditional ingredient in Sardinia but wild fennel is and we want to replicate some of that flavor. So J. M. Thank you as Sardinian. Herb Soup with fried gala in white beans easy recipe and tons of flavor from the fresh herbs. Thank you thank you. You can get this recipe for Sardinian herb soup with fragrant and white beans at Milk Street. Radio DOT COM. You're listening to extreme radio coming up. Adam Gopnik on why he thinks the Montreal being well is better than any other who'd be ranked This is most radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. Next up Sara Moulton. I will be taking a few more of your cooking questions. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling hello? Christopher and Sarah this is deb from historic Williamsburg Virginia. Well hello you lucky person living there. How can we help you? So I have a couple of basic questions regarding buttermilk biscuits and but looks goons and I know that Christopher is a huge fan of buttermilk biscuit so I figured perhaps you could answer my question for me. I really liked the recipe. Where you melt the stick of butter and then you put it into a cup of buttermilk. And then you mix that loosely the dry ingredients and you use it a drop biscuit for buttermilk biscuit My first question is could. I use the same recipe for doing a laminated sheet style biscuit. Instead of dropping it could I actually fold it. Roll it out. No first of all you don't want the butter melted. You needed to be layered in there. The thing that happens in any laminated dough is when the heat hits it. The butter gives off steam. Which is what gives you that. Rise see don't want melted. The basic buttermilk biscuit recipe usually is two cups of flour and seven tablespoons of fat whether it's butter or Crisco or a combination and you put in a food processor and when the butter's very cold and you work it in like pipe pastry as Sarah said that will give you nation you get layers and your biscuit a little bit but James Beard had a very famous creative crispy where it went. I've made that many times where he just uses heavy cream. And that'll give you a very soft non limited more dense crumb. It's quite different either. Works fine if you want the lamb nations pull the biscuit apart. And they're sort of layers. You have to have butter. Yeah that's it okay. So that makes a lot of sense. So because I make buttermilk biscuit decided he wanted to bring some treats into work and he decided. I should be making scones instead so I took a look at the next radio going recipe and Greg is the technique where you have the cold. Us Shave And make it go into the flower but it doesn't seem like that recipe actually calls for any elimination. It's almost like drop biscuit recipe. So the question is could I use my melted butter in the butter milk and use that for sure but you'll again have the more dense crumb more cake like it's an interesting question because if you go to England and have tea at incredibly expensive hotel frowns? I mean they give you these little tiny American biscuits and they call them scones so I think the huge skull on talking about the American scone. Yes so the Americans grown but I do agree because scone started in England Scotland and then supposedly when they came to America and the South. They just call them. This gets instead but they're actually count so I am talking about the radio scam which ginger and chocolate that revenue basically put the cold butter. And so I'm wondering since at once not laminated. It's almost like a drought biscuit. Could melt the butter and put it in buttermilk and use that for the ginger scans to can but don't forget that recipe came from ten in bakery in Portland Maine and she loves fat. So just make sure you have the right fat content eighteen. Nabil's I remember. Yeah Oh thank you so much come fucking Christopher and Washington you regret thank you very much. Thank you great radio cooking question. Sarah and I can probably answer it. Please give us a ring. Eight five five four two six nine eight four three one more time. Eight five five four to six nine eight four three or simply email a set questions and mill street radio DOT COM. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling hi? This is Kevin from Tacoma Washington. Hi Kevin. How can we help you today or I want to say? It's super cool to be on the phone so thanks for taking my call. Thank you for calling. So my question is mind Father in law is hot sauce beaten. But he's on a medication now where he can't have nightshade though. I was wondering if you guys have any ideas as to how to make a nightshade free hot sauce. Well here's the thing about hot. So what was his favorite hot sauce or was it any hot sauce. He eats a lot of Mexican food. Okay he'll like Mexican and do you know what Chile that was based on? No okay. That's fine. Was it acidic as well yeah? Was it a little bit sweet as well for just a sick a little bit of sweetness but mostly okay because those are the three things I mean. Mainly it's chilly. But then you know generally there's a fair amount of acid and sometimes there's a fair amount of some kind of sweetness like Sharada much sweeter than others but people love it there other things that are hot such as black and white pepper corns that you could consider crushing in adding some vinegar kind in a little bit of sugar with. Sabi is very hot. The powdered stuff which actually isn't true. Asaba which is rise zone. That's very expensive and hard to find but the stuff we get in Sushi restaurants. That powder is very hot. You just it with some liquid and more obviously than you would just to make the paste hot mustard. A famous brand is Coleman's you know like they use. Sometimes in Chinese restaurants. The hot mustard could be the base of a sauce again. The powder the powdered. Excuse me that is absolutely what I meant and you know again adding some acid and some sugars that are playing around with the different combinations and then of course there's always ginger which is quite spicy and hot all by itself graded up and combined with a some acid so I would sort of play around with those and maybe some of them in combination Chris any thoughts. I think such pepper cords on rough. You mentioned those Changli. They're not hot. Yeah but tinguely lives right next door to their neighbors. Okay I mean that may do give you that sensory experience. People said that before and I find Szechuan. Pepper corns more aromatic than anything else and floral. But no no. I think you're right with Sabi Horse Radish horseradish. That could be pretty hot. Yeah combine that with a little vinegar a little sugar. I do find if you let it sit too long loses what you're talking about. You're talking about fresh horse rash if you get the bottle stuff. That's plenty hot. You could add just a little more vinegar to it to a tiny pinches sugar to make it come alive. I think all those are right. All right thanks. Thanks for calling bye-bye Radio now it's time for some culinary wisdom from one of our listeners. I my name is Anita and my crooking tip is about fine but usually the fun that forms on the side of a pan as a sauce or soup simmers and reduces in volume to retrieve that concentrated goodness turn up the heat and put a tight fitting lid on your pan. Wait ten minutes and the build up of steam the pan. We'll have loosened the residue on the size of the Pan and you can scrape it off with a rubber spatula and sturt into your sauce or soup. Thank you if you'd like to share your own cooking tip on Milk Street radio. Please go to one. Seven seven milk street dot COM SLASH RADIO TIPS NEXT UP. Its regular contributor. Adam Gopnik out of God nick. What's on your mind this week? Do you know where I come from. Chris. Do you know what my hometown is. Canada Canada is my home country. That's a big place. I don't know Toronto. I don't know I'm not sure. No I'm a Montreal. I come from Montreal and Montreal is one of the most winning cities famous for its hockey team famous for its French cuisine and famous perhaps above all for its bagels. And as. I'm sure you're aware there is an ongoing dispute of an enormously heated kind about the competing features of New York and Montreal bagels. Were you aware of this? No completely flat footed and surprised. Oh I'm delighted because then I get to introduce you to this great debate. Montreal bagels came to Montreal sometime right after the Second World War when immigrants coming from Romania believe in other places brought their bagel making techniques to Montreal and the Montreal Bagel is significantly and wonderfully different from the New York Bagel. The New York Bagel is a big boring puffy piece of bread and the Montreal. Bagel is a sweet boiled and very importantly would beg that is to say baked in would often low calorie delight that manages to combine two of. I think everyone's favorite flavors smokiness and sweetness in one simple piece of carbohydrate and is invariably decorated but densely decorated with a kind of half flick of the wrist densely decorated with either sesame seeds for white bagels. Poppy seeds for lack bagels. The Montreal Bagel is baked at two very particular places the sent via Bagel Bakery which is famous for being open. Twenty four hours a day. Three hundred sixty five days a year. The other wonderful bakery is the fairmount Bagel Bakery. I make regular trips to Montreal just in order to bring home bagels but there is now a war underway within Montreal about the future of the Bagel as I say the supremacy of the Montreal Bagel to the New York Bagel is something that I have tried to point out again and again to my friends. I have a good friend. A fellow named David Remnant. Whose name you may have heard who persists in the belief that a New York Bagel is actually a Bagel and I tried to explain to him through the evidence that a New York Bagel as I say just kind of Puffy Pretzel whereas Montreal Bagel is the real thing. The problem is that there's a new bylaw just brought in in Montreal to ban wood burning ovens from the entire city on pollution grounds. The great question then becomes can the Montreal Bagel survive the loss of the wood burning oven? How essential is the wood burning oven to the matchless effect of the Montreal Bagel? There is a worrying precedent in Montreal cuisine that suggests that maybe it will turn out to be utterly essential and that is the other great Montreal delicacy smoked meat. You've heard of smoke meat Shirley Horace. That's the Montreal version of what we call Pastrami them. Famous Temple of Montreal smoked meat is a place called Schwartz's and what they discovered when they finally started cleaning the place when it was bought by a syndicate of distinguished who loved it including Celine. Dion is that in plain Yiddish. It was the smuts that caused the savor. It was the accumulated Matz in the SMOKEHOUSE. That gave it its distinctive taste and now excellent though it is i. Don't think Schwartz to smoke. Me Is as good as it. Once was minus that accumulated Schmitz. So I am in a state of some panic. Well I mean the the alternative. Is You move the bakery to the suburbs? Right where the law no longer applies. Guess but part of the joy of the Montreal Bagel is the fact that it's baked on residential streets. Move into the suburbs. We have to ship it in to the center of town and you lose exactly that element of it. I'm puzzled about it. Actually a little bit because as you know is somebody who loves Paris. My other favorite breakfast toast is penn. Poland I was just going to mention well actually because the bakery in the sixth which has wood fired oven downstairs. You've probably been to. They actually bake very little of their goods. They're it's mostly done out near the airport exactly so the bread is made in a pristine modern factory but the store. They'll give you on. The tour of the Fourteenth Century Ovens exactly Pearland has made the compromise they have on the chefs. Medina a wood burning oven but it is. What should we call it? A potemkin Potemkin village. It's there for show into for the tourists and the vast quantities of Penn plan are made in a semi commercial bakery with the wonderful recipe out. Farther this may be the fate of the Montreal Bagel to be fabricated elsewhere and then sold in town with a little bit of smoke sort of applied ceremonially to make us continue to believe in it. Perhaps that's the fate of all breads is. There's a fate of all men. I hope that isn't the case. But certainly you're absolutely right. Plan is an indicator of what the future might bring for the Montreal Bagel. So let's see if I got this right your staff writer for magazine called The New Yorker. And you're going after the New York. Bagel is some second rate piece of bread. That doesn't even qualifies a Bagel. I you like tilting at windmills. Evidently I love tilly windmills. Don Quixote's my middle name windows. My whole life my crisis that the windmills of always one. Have you ever thought that? Maybe you don't WanNa win is the deep reflection of course not those of us who are of a what shall we it. Contemporary turn of mind. No we would rather think in lose corden confront actuality and win so Adam thank you you clearly find the New York Bagel a travesty of baking and the real deals in Montreal as long as it lasts. Thank you Adam as long as it lasts. That was that GOP nick staff writer for the New York got. Nick prefers bagels through Montreal over New York which begs the question about whether New York City. Water is the secret to great bagels. Here are the facts. New York City water contains relatively small natural deposits of calcium and magnesium making New York City Water. Some of the softness in the country which they say is good for bagels plus the Ph of the water. The acidity is around seven point two which is ideal for fermentation. Unfortunately side-by-side tastings have shown that when using the same recipe water quality makes difference others. Say That boiling bagels. I is actually the key to a New York Bagel. Not The water. So maybe it's the water. But maybe New Yorkers just know how to make really good bagels of course. If you're from Montreal Gopnik you would politely disagree. That's it for today tuned too late or just WANNA listen again. You can download and subscribe to Milk Street Radio on Apple PODCASTS. Spotify or ever. You find your podcasts to learn more about milk street please go to one. Seven seven Dot Com there. You download each week's recipe. Watch the latest season of a television show for order on New Cookbook Milk Street. Fast and slow instant pot cooking at the speed. You need you can also find us on. Facebook Christopher Kimball Milk Street on instagram and twitter at one seven seven milk street who be back next week and thanks as always for listening Christopher Columbus Milk Street radio produced by Milk Street in association with W GBH excecutive producer. Melissa Bongino Senior Audio Editor Melissa Allison Code Executive Producer. Anne sensabaugh associate producer. Jackie noack Production Assistant Sarah Class AND PRODUCTION HELP FROM DEBBIE. Paddock senior audio engineer. David Goodman a digital editing from Vicky merrick Sydney Lewis Samantha Brown an audio mixing from Jay Allison Atlantic public media in woods hole Massachusetts. The music by to Bob Crewe Additional Music by George Bernard egg loss. Christopher Kimble's milk street radio is by Pete Arnett Act.

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Desperately Seeking Frances Secret Steak Sauce

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

52:19 min | 5 months ago

Desperately Seeking Frances Secret Steak Sauce

"Hi, this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading this week's podcast. You can go to our website one, seven, seven, Milk Street, dot com destroying our television show get our recipes or take our free online cooking classes enjoy the show. This is most your radio from. Pierre. XM Your host. Christopher. Kimball. A few anchovies butter dried parsley or maybe that was fresh thyme. For decades chefs have been trying to discover the recipe for France's most famous steak sauce. Today, we meet a lean in Pauline Gaudio, the family behind this secret sauce. We've heard so many. Things to what seem to so stood, I'm not afraid the only person who had the recipe was my mother and his brother and his sister, and they kept it secret. Also. Coming Up Alex News tells us why he thinks we should forget homemade sour dough and baked white bread instead later we make my new favorite snack Mexican sweetcorn cake. But first we hear from local Lonnie Alabama about southern inspired ice cream flavors. Look Alani. Welcome to most straight. Hi thank you for having me. You've had a really interesting backgrounds, New England culinary institute I know that well, in Vermont worked in L.. A. Pastry Chef worked with Ansi. Silverton. Opened, the hand, Pie, company, and then at a creamery in Nashville. You Love Ice Cream you've created you say three hundred flavors in the past four years. Let's start with the ice cream itself. Do you have some strong feelings about a base for ice cream that makes the best ice cream or do you think all ice creams are created? Equal? That no one's ever asked me that. So this is really great. I. They're not created equal because you have American hard style, which has no eggs you have custard, which has a percentage of a yoke and you have gelato. And you have ice cream base. So I took the ice cream base route, which is a standard milk cream, a joke sugar mixture, and that was sort of the base I had learned at Camp Manila and at Gray's restaurant, and so I just took that and more to into what I thought worked out but I had to learn a lot about how sugar. And fat play while they're frozen. So that's been I think the hardest part about it it's figuring out the ratio. So I have to ask at the outset you've married to things that normally don't go together right ice cream in history in this case African. American history. How did you decide to put those two things together in? Why did that make sense to you? So. My journey with ice cream has been very interesting because I didn't grow up eating a lot of it. When I did have it was very it was neapolitan flavor and then all of a sudden I found a Jeremiah Code, which is Tony Tipton Martin the beautiful book about two Hundred Years of African American cookbooks and I heard about it on my drive from Las Vegas to Nashville and it blew my mind that I didn't know about these books in culinary school or actually at any time and my culinary career. So the more I dug into southern food and the culture and just I, mean I grew up in the black culture it just made more sense. To me to incorporate these flavors. So now you have the recipes african-american recipes going way back how do you take those recipes and apply them to ice cream and actually design those flavors? It starts by finding something or just being inspired by something, and then I think how do we take this? And make it a flavor that will spark some sort of. Moment for someone and so sweet potato pie for me was something I grew up eating and the knowing okay. You can't just dump a potato into ice cream right? You have to break it down and think well, if I make the pie filling all baked pie filling and then to vitamix it down to a puree so that I can incorporate that into the ice cream. So it's silky smooth, and of course, it needs marshmallow and then it needs pecans and so it's like a game kind of it's like, how do you take this and put it into ice cream and savor these little bits of something that you would have had as a child or your grandmother would have cut for you. Peanuts and coke. Jolt tell that story because that's not something I knew anything about I had zero idea about it either I was going through I'll just randomly Google something or I'll be going through old magazines and it came up and I went home my gosh. What is this because Coca Cola bottle is delicious. Of. You know peanuts are like, Oh this is amazing and so getting the flavor of Coq Inc anti-semitism lot very easy because people know the carbon nation and the sugar content and that Vanilla, it's very specific and so that took a while to just it was a flat coke almost but it had that flavor and then I had to make something. Peanut like into it. So I made it is it called or Jay is that how you pronounce it offline Flavor, Yup? Yes. So I replaced the almonds with. And made that Syrup and added to the ice cream, and then it had this flavor and so when we put it out, a lot of people came in and they said, I, love that my parents eight that my grandpa had that he would drink the net. Can you know? They drink the neck of a coke and then fill it up with peanuts and so I couldn't believe that was an actual thing but it's it's a southern thing. Some of the flavors WanNa talk about years ago I was at Prince's hot chicken check. I did not order the hottest. But how do you turn hot chicken nationals hot chicken into ice cream. So that took an entire year so i. I think I had hot chicken maybe two years before we fully moved to the south and I remember having and I thought what is this amazing thing because I can take heat I mean the heat that they do. A little bit much so. I did some research and I was blown away by the story you know of princess hot chicken and how it came to fruition and so I thought well, ice cream that makes sense. So wait a minute. No, it doesn't. It doesn't make any sense at all. It's like I'm glad you did it. But how did you think about putting hot chicken and ice cream with because it was cooling and hot at the same time? Well, yeah I really fell in love with it I I thought there's GonNa. Be a way to incorporate the. This heat into it right And so I talked to a really close friend of mine. He said, why don't you use chicken skin and I went year? It's brilliant. So the recipe I have we deep fried the chicken skin we toss it in this beautiful bright orange red paste and then I, let steep overnight and then that's what did it and that's what pulled the flavor and then another friend said, why don't you just candy the chicken skin after you fry it and I said that's great too. So, we would write another round. Do the same steps and then candy and then cut that up into small bits, and then we folded it into the ice cream. It was. I think the reactions alone worth. Everything. So there was another one that seems the simplest mall Parmesan Flavor Way Parmesan. So the Parmesan is This beautiful dedication to Sarah Stell who has this free. Black female entrepreneur in eighteen forty in Nashville. Tennessee who had an ice cream. Saloon. And she was opened from eighteen forty to eighteen sixty, and after the civil war hit, the paper trail is gone. There's no we don't know what happened to her. We know that the saloon was closed up and that was it. So the Nashville Historical Society, they had a dinner. And they asked us to. Make a flavor for Sarah Style and I was just amazed that. Here I am making ice cream in Nashville. She was here and so I did some research and it came up that Parmesan and Rye bread were really popular flavors during that time and so I thought well, why not make Parmesan flavor and I did and I added a little black pepper to it and it was wild. So so in the eighteen forties and fifties, she was selling ice cream flavored with Parmesan. Yes she was and she was known as the Queen of ice cream back in the time people their rave reviews, their actual articles written about her ice cream. You know everyone thinks that history sort of goes forward but sometimes, it really goes backwards right I mean yes. One hundred fifty years ago doing Parmesan ice. Cream. For me, she's been a huge inspiration and there's a plaque with her name on it and downtown Nashville where her ice cream saloon used to be but it's just a very simple flavor with the most beautiful historical context. Look a lot of thank you so much for being on milk. Street you maybe rethink what good ice cream is. Thank you. Thank you. This has been so wonderful. Ice Cream maker local on yellow bonds the founder of Saturated Ice Cream in Nashville Tennessee? It's time to take some of your calls, my co-host Serum. Alton. Series, of course the star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television also author of home cooking one. Serra, our you. I'm great Chris and I think it's time to get to the phones open up the lines. Let's go. Welcome to mill street WHO's calling. Hi, this is Brendan High Brandon where you calling from. Fresno California. How can we help you today? Well, a question about making a strawberry cake. I've made it multiple times and the first few times that I've made it was delicious but the cake texture came out really dense and I was actually out of town and my mom's house making it again, and she only had a stand mixer that had instead of a paddle attachment all had. Attachment. And when I used that attachment I, don't know if it was that's or what happened but the came out. Perfect really nice and light and fluffy. So I'm just wondering could that have done something different or was there something else going on maybe that made it light and fluffy. What's the recipe? Are you beating whole eggs with sugar to starter? What are you doing? Yeah. Well I think that's the answer. The answer what did you used to use before you used a whisk just as spoon. Pal Panel attachment? Yeah. No, it's absolutely the whisk whisk incorporate more error. And this cake depends in part on incorporating into the whole eggs and the sugar, it is to get a nice light. Texture. The paddles good for batteries that don't really depend on incorporating a lot of hair, right? Especially when you have a high percentage of eggs that's sort of part of their role there is to add leavening. You know they just naturally without eleven or I imagine there's eleven in the recipe to. Yet baking. Powder. You using the right tool for the job. The risk for a paddle that's silly. Recipe calls for paddle. You know I don't know a Thing I was thinking was because it says to microwave the strawberries and then strain them, and then reduce them into Syrup and down to I think a quarter cup or whatever, and I was wondering maybe in the past if I didn't reduce the liquid enough and it was too much liquid could that have something to do with it or not or no? Is that just the not really I don't think it makes much of a difference. I mean, if you had a couple of quick versus a quarter that might make a difference but it sounds like you're talking about a tablespoon or two right difference. Yeah Down Yeah. It's the way the whisk the question is, do you have a stand mixer with whisk attachment? Oh Yeah I. Definitely do well. For now on, you should be yeah, that was an easy. I'm glad. Sure pleasure. Thanks for calling. Thank you very much. Welcome to milk street WHO's calling framers, Erica. Erica. Where are you calling from Bucks County Pennsylvania? We help you. I had a question about a vegetable hands that I made. It was one of the Gra tans where several different root vegetables were arranged very pretty in concentric circle and it looked really beautiful but the milk and cheese and the butter when I get separated. So it was kind of watery with the milk solids floating around in their. Problem we have experienced many times. A few questions are using russets for potatoes. She said just root vegetables were there potatoes in their good question I did include to Hoping that the starch might help. It was butternut squash. Breath it a sweet potato and some of the last size parsnips and what kind of dairy did you have? I had whole mill heavy cream and butter that I- simmered on a sauce ten just to bring it up to. The proportion of milk too heavy cream three cups home at one cup. Heavy cream. Cheese in IT kid on top Senate career and Peck Arena I would get rid of the milk or use much less milk the lower the fat of the dairy in a criterion dish the more likely you'll have separation. The other way to do it is use a chicken or beef stock or vegetable stock with some heavy cream that would also probably help aircraft cheese a peck arenas in age cheese and is not going to melt particularly well. So the fresher cheese the better it melts but I would think it's really a question of the milk. There's three parts to one. Part heavy cream in that maybe reverse at one part milk to three parts heavy cream or half. But the other thing is since you've got a preponderance of root vegetables that are low in starch including sweet potatoes, they don't have the same kind of starch that was the other issue there too. You know because they give off. Let me think about it. So I'm not saying you should get rid of the root vegetables. I agree with Chris I would up the cream and down the milk or do have cream have saved chicken broth vegetable, Broth You know if you WANNA use milk fine but you would almost make a special male thicken it. Because if you going to be my follow up, you could do that. If you WANNA use milk, make it turn it into a cream sauce I developed. Butter flour, and then I'd chicken stock and use that is to base that would be great difference between Avello A and a best seller, cream sauces, stock versus milk. So whatever you're looking for, they're looking for the indulgent variety maybe I. Get the milk Outta there man lose. Lose that milk a that would be the opposite to the advertising which has got milk lose the milk Lisa seem. Got Cream. Yeah there you go. I think. We get you all set. I. Think you're good to go. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks Erica. Thank you. This is most your radio. If you have cooking question, please give us a ring at eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three, that's eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three or email questions at mill street radio DOT COM. Welcome to milk street who's on the line. Hi It's Kathy in South West Florida Hi Caffeine in southwest Florida. How can we help you today? Well I talk to you a couple of weeks ago or so about my problem with blueberries. Yes let's just refresh the issue was that when you make blueberry smoothies, they just seem to be so thick they absolutely gel. Gel. So you're trying to figure out what to do, and so you went back to the drawing board and what happened. Well I tried. Chris. Suggestion was to just not care for that did not go over with my family when bit okay. That was had another suggestion which was used a higher proportion of other fruit blueberries I think I also yes. That I did not try. But what I did try was I. Let it sit in a blender until it was getting sick and then I swirled that again. And it broke it up and it did not reach out. Okay. That was my suggestion. I win one for me. We'll so okay. So not carrying wasn't the most brilliant. Doesn't sound like you either. nonce just like. Letting Gel and then whizzing it all over again did the trick exactly wonderful sort of like breaking cornstarch yeah. How'd you figure then I don't know well, and there you go. For you and I feel I feel. Yeah. And I got to try to care more. Okay. Thank you guys. Thank you. Bye. That's a that's a good one you. I guess in cooking very often. When thinks thicken we know if you disturbed them too much. thickened. Thing but I didn't think. Well it's like my father-in-law's theory was forced doesn't work apply MORE FORCE For left. Fixing cars. You're listening to radio up next for chatting with Journalists Rebecca Osmond about Francis top secret recipe for steak sauce. We'll be right back. Like many of you I've been working at home since March, my wife Melissa and I have two young kids one in three, and after watching frozen for the tenth time, we finally signed up for Kiko. Kiko started sending Koala crates. These are monthly project kits that are designed for two to four year. Olds are son Oliver fell in love with Dr Crate. He turned her eighteen month old ricky into his patient using the stethoscope had made together even ricky got into the act. You can choose from eight different crates from the panic crate for toddlers up through the Eureka create for kids over fourteen. You can build your own Ukulele or desk lamp, a walkie robot or even a Fluffy Alpaca Kiko is redefining play with hands on projects that build confidence creativity, and also critical thinking skills. There's something for every kid or kid at Heart Akiko get your first month free on select creates at Kiko Dot com slash milk. That's K- I W I, C O, dot, com slash M I L K. Most radio I'm your host. Christopher. Kimball right now it's my interview with journalist. Rebecca Roz about the world's most sought after secret steak sauce recipe. Rebecca. Welcome to most street. Hi, thanks for having me. we're talking about steak frites and a very particular place in Paris that serves that with a special sauce. So maybe you could start with the origin story. So the restaurant is called Rela- Denise Cote, and it's run by a family the genus disolve family the original was name Paul. Scholes today it's run by his daughter Ellen good yo and granddaughter budding video, and I had the opportunity to sit down with len and pauline at the restaurant and they told me about the origins. Here's what Ellen said. mopey who. My father was a wind and he dreamt of owning a restaurant and he said to my mother that, yeah he wanted to do it and her reply was. But how can you possibly want to have a restaurant? You don't even know how season salads us she's with. The. But while he was in Switzerland sold a lot of wine there and he went to a, you know just a small restaurant and they had this amazing stake in it had a sauce like no other that ever tasted before. So he asked the chef could have the recipe and the kindly gave it to him. So he made some modifications he went back to France did some test runs with his family got to what they thought was a really nice sauce and decided that that is what they're going to open a restaurant with and they were just going to serve as kind of a you know a new concept they just wanted to serve. One menu item which would be sirloin steak long coat is what you say in French with fresh fries a nice salad and the sauce. So he thought it was spot in the seventeenth. Paris. Let shoes. To a between. US, he was a local of the restaurant opposite. And he went to see the owner and told him Oh, I've bought the place opposite you and but owner told him Oh God you poor thing everybody fails that restaurant never works. What are you going to serve and his reply was well uncle goods and fries And the restaurant owner opposite told him people weren't going to go out to eat just for that but we opened in January nineteen, hundred nine. So we've been going strong for sixty one years. The first month was hard but now it's taken off. The only thing we changed was the paint she to. Him. So this was the first time. Someone had really opened a steak freight place inexpensive, very limited menu restaurant of that concept. Yeah. It was really the first one. So over time this sauce is actually been the subject of a lawsuit There are other people out there with a similar restaurant formula the biggest competitor mark owns be so. maybe talk about that place and his relationship to the original restaurant. So Mark Van Hove used to be a cook and thirty five years ago a friend of his who worked in the original related Denise Restaurant. Managed to get a hold of the recipe and gave it to mark Van Hove an. Chevy. Measure coolies angered young I had the recipe but I only have the ingredients not the weight of each of the ingredients. So. At first, I started at home in secret and not in restaurants away from prying eyes and it took me about fifty tries to get the right quantities for each of the ingredients and then the order of adding them into next as well. defended. Donna Bernardo so knowing how precious this gift was. He held onto it for. Years and years and years and waited until twenty ten when he decided that he had enough savings to. Invest in his own small chain restaurants at the time. Now, it's much bigger bistro Rachel. And he had a slogan that said essentially, if you like launch coats, you'll love bistro result. So that was sort of the base of lawsuit was whether the launcher code he was referring to the restaurant or as he is referring to cut of meat. Right. so He of course claims that he was referring to the cut of meat. All for me. The very beginning launched my restaurant chain onto a good family loft. But then got angry when they saw that they'd made twenty million euros and made forty million and that's when the sued I one except for a couple of small things and so I had to pay eighty thousand euros because one of our tag lines was if you like the ultimate good weight into you tried the fiscal. I wasn't referring to the auto quote restaurant is referring to the article dish, which is the most consumed dish in French restaurants. Kielbasa the underprivileged utilize to. Says told. Launch. A coat. It's very popular menu item in French restaurants, but there's a difference between Ulta coat and loans coat meaning Vermont. Likud and when you refer to onto a coat. I would say anyone who's even a bit of a food he knows you're talking about the original Lonzo Code, which is related these. So this brings up to issues. I is using the fame of an existing restaurant to launch your own chain. The other one is about whether you can copycat a recipe actually something that people own. Yeah. He doesn't deny that he's kind of proud of it in a way you know saying I saw. A business opportunity here and I took full advantage of it. You know when when my friend gave me this recipe that was nothing nothing illegal about that. Yeah but I think in the food world, the distinction is made. Yes, there's no such thing as an original recipe, right everything's been invented probably. But if you do something that gives you economic game based upon something somebody else's created that becomes an economic issue is not just an issue of of literary freedom. Right he has a hundred and thirty branches of his restaurant right now and he wants to expand. Meanwhile relate of these. You know they have their original in Paris. They have another one in London and one in New, York. But you know it it's really a small small group. So why why is it? So I mean okayed steak freight where it's a steak rise some desserts good wine probably listed on the wall somewhere. and has got to this butter sauce. It sounds lovely but it sounds pretty simple. Well, it is simple food but that sauces not simple at all people have tried to recreate it. For decades at one point loan, which is one of the biggest most popular newspapers in France claim that they discovered the recipe and you know the secret was over that's it and it turned out they hadn't not even close according to the owners. So you went obviously to the original related. So maybe we could do is to dive into what's in the sauce or what you've been told in the sauce. Well, I had to bring another. Quote Unquote expert to try and tasteless. Also I took along my foodie friend described him found swath. While I would say definitely butter. A. Salt, pepper. Capers I would I would guess. Herbs. Tarragon your Tarragon yeah. Jargon usually goes well with me. Chevy kind of cheating because I did read up about this. So what I've read is that there's also chicken stop. Maybe chicken, liver. Onion. Garlic but I think the main things are the anchovy. The herbs. And possibly took him. So have the original family, Aline Pauline have they actually tried the sauce from Bistro region? So fighting me, she took her cousin to his restaurant because she was just so curious when you know they had to try it if you go and taste the sauce I can tell you it's absolutely not the same at all just by the look of the suicide no, it's not the same ingredients and the taste is not the same no he he cannot have the recipe because the only person had the recipe was my mother and his brother and sister, and they kept it secrets. So, there's all the secrecy around the secret steak sauce. But I wonder whether mark does he keep his recipe under lock and key as well? Yes he definitely does. The secret sauce kept in this what he calls a lab in Bordeaux. she has gone. Quite big. You have to have an access card to get there and there are only two people you know the recipe of the myself and those two people have signed an NDA. Of course unfortunately, you can never be sure but I tried to choose people that I could trust and they are paid for it. We make five million euros in the lab because of the sources gold. ASSOC-. So they're all very tight lipped, and if any of them were to ever steal the recipe, I imagine there'd be quite a big lawsuit. comes. So after all these years. Is. The original family concerned about. Their business their sauce or they think they're just doing a great job and have nothing to worry about. The media emily are not concerned at all at least. That's what they told me when I spoke with them. I think it would be very complex to find out what's in the so's. We've heard so many. Things about what's in the sows that I'm not afraid and in in addition, it's the souls, but it's a lot of things around it that made the success of the restaurant. It's the the fact that you do find the same quality new plate for. The last sixteen years it's the atmosphere. It's everything that make it a success steel today. So at the end of the day, what's your takeaway in terms of knockoffs and the value of being true to your beliefs about what makes a good restaurant? I think. It being an entrepreneur thing and you WanNa, look to the restaurant industry you know Mark Van I'm sure he's a great. Great example decide you know he? He really took this kind of almost like a manufacturer style of. Opening so many restaurants and he's been quite successful at it that being said to me it's it's it's about the experience of going to the restaurant seeing Ellen Gaudio who is now in her I want to say late eighties, early nineties, and she's still sits there at the lunch service every single day. And watches from the side. Rebecca thank you so much for being on Milk Street and tell the story of the original stake free. Restaurant. Thank you. That was journalist Rebecca Rossmo. The recipe for steak sauce may be secret Paris but coca-cola has an older and we're famous secret respite. That formula was invented in eighteen eighty, six by nine Lanta pharmacists and did include cocaine from Coca Leaf extract as well as Colin nuts hence the name Coca Cola? It wasn't until nineteen twenty nine when all traces of cocaine were finally removed. However. The New York Times reported in one thousand, nine, hundred, eight coca-cola still contains coca leaf extracts provided by the step on company, but with cocaine removed. I searched the step on company website, but I couldn't find a single mention of coca leaves. So maybe that's still a half kept secret. The biggest secret evolve course would be the coca-cola's still contains cocaine, and maybe that explains why they sell one eight billion bottles per day. It's time to head into the kitchen and milk street the chat with Rano Je very about. This week's recipe Mexicans sweet corn cake. Rain how are you? I'm well, Chris Hey. So this is a story about a trip. I made recently to Mexico City, and it's a great example of when you travel you come across recipe that's totally unexpected but is by far the favorite recipe from your trip. And I was at the con market in Mexico City in all these markets of course have restaurants. This one was actually a very beautiful restaurant Coz Sina Daime Mama Adrianna. Luna is the chef. The owner has a huge bar and has this wonderful cooking area very well provisioned, and while we were waiting for her star cooking lesson, we were brought a slice of a corn cake and huge cup of coffee and after my second slice of cake because I. Liked it. So much. I was just amazed at has a texture between almost a sponge cake cornbread it's slightly savory, but it's slightly sweet is just an amazing recipe. So I got the recipe we brought it back and. I gave it to you. and. What did you do with it? Well. Here's the thing Chris what we discovered is that the corn in Mexico is much stature and less sweet than American corn. So at first, we had some trouble replicating that texture that you just mentioned that you love so much because that starchy a corn in Mexico gives the cake. It's light airy texture. So to adapt the recipe, we found that we had to add cornmeal cornstarch and yoga to the recipe to make it lighter and less dense. So. What we do is we stopped by cutting about a and a half of corn added to the blender along with cornmeal condensed milk, which is the only sweetness, which is why I like this recipe to and yogurt, and then after blending it, we let it sit in the blender for about ten minutes. So this is a blender recipe I. Think in Mexico I did ask the whole thing is made in a blender which also was incredibly appealing. Did we try frozen corn to or is this has to be fresh corn. So in this case, it does need to be fresh corn frozen is tempting because it's convenient, but it does make it very gummy. We can use white or yellow corn that's not a problem, but definitely not frozen. So you have the blunder liquid ingredients then what? So, wildly blender ingredients sitting for about those ten minutes. We whisked together the flour cornstarch baking powder and salt separately in a bowl, and then in the blender, we add whole eggs, egg yolks and oil, and the blend the rest of it poured into the dry ingredients, and then all of that goes into a cake pan into the oven forty five minutes later you have absolute delight. So this is I made this thing ten times now probably it takes ten minutes to throw together takes thirty forty minutes to bake. The. Cake is he will not last to the next day. It's one of the greatest snack cake recipes ever because it's simple to do. It just has a remarkable flavor and texture you can't replicate with anything else so. You can tell them a big fan. So that's why you should always travel recipes. You find something you didn't expect rainy. Thank you so much Mexican sweet corn cake one of my top five cakes of all time. Thank you. Thanks Chris. You can get this recipe for Mexican sweetcorn cake at. St Radio DOT COM. You're listening to. Radio coming up Alexander News tells us why he believes white bread is more important than sourdot in the journey of a home cook that and more in just a moment. This most Radio Christopher Kimball next up Sara Moulton I will answer a few more of your cooking questions. Welcome to milk street WHO's calling. Hi this is amy from Boston. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm a huge fan of the show. I work in stained dining and I'm recently tried some local sustainable fish from some fishermen in the area. One of the species was dogfish also known as Cape Stark and I try to prepare it in a bunch of different ways, but I couldn't get over that distinct. Shark Fish. Related. Flavor I'm wondering if you guys have any tips for potentially neutralizing that flavor or preparing dogfish in a way to make it more appealing in how would you describe that flavor? Eurico Ours is something you can't really repeat on the air. No I repeat it. You know there's a like a I guess it's. That'll enough on ammonia flavor associated with it and I think a lot of shark. Species have that flavor Do you know if it's very, very fresh when you buy it fresh, they brought it straight from the boat and prepared in front of lot. Well, I'm no expert on fishing but I think this is a problem of no urinary tract in the fish, right? I mean. It's sort of excreted through the skin and so I think this is a fish that needs to be gutted or feel dresses would say in Vermont blood chilled very quickly because you have that in the skinny. One thing we used to do at The last restaurant I worked at was anything that had an aroma and including some things that didn't but might eventually we would soak in milk and interesting Kinda like garlic I. Guess I haven't actually done that with garlic and this was prepared by chef. You know that knew what they were doing I just couldn't see how I could make other Americans like it. Did they got it in bleed it right after they caught it to you know yeah they supposedly prepared in a way that was Wrecked serving Don's fish I don't think they were soaking in milk so that might be a good step for give it a give it to take and trying to market it, give it a couple hours and then is prepared in a way that sort of hides its flavor like maybe better and fry it or something like that. You know. So it's There's other things going on. Yeah. Definitely. I'm to see become a more popular item in this might be another step we have to take to get it there right Well thanks for calling. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome to milk street. WHO's. Calling. My name is Teresa. Where are you calling from? I'm calling from eastern Washington into Kat Okay and how can we help you today? Well. I recently started making sorbets I'M Dealing with some allergies that I have to avoid being dairy, soy and corn. Bummer. Right. So I'd like to cut back on the amount of sugar that's used in this sorbet. Oh, sweet for our taste. So I'm wondering if I can do that without affecting the consistency and the sorbet one word vodka. I'm serious. or Jin but I mean. Yeah alcohol you can cut the sugar and alcohol it'll be smooth. There's some religious. Use the vodka. Okay. No corn. Syrup. No alcohol. Those are my right secrets. Yeah. It's a bit of a problem just because you don't get the right texture if you don't have the right amount of sugar, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. You're right. Though sorbets are achingly sweet. Old Jam recipes that were just so high in sugar. But sugar is hygroscopic. Tracks water, which means that it's going to get a much finer crystal. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it might have something to do with the crystallization of. Absolutely delicious frozen and you don't have to do anything to it is a banana. Because they taste like banana ice cream without anything added to them. They're delicious. You know I agree with Chris about the alcohol thing because you know alcohol keeps things softer. They don't freeze hard with the alcohol in it. So what amounts would I use for myself? I don't mind I I use the vodka in the pipe recipes that I I make. So if I wanted to do that how much vodka what using the, how much less could use I think the general ratio with sorbets is like four cups of fruit puree to one cup sugar. So Chris, how much vodka would you add to that? Take Out Quarter Cup sugar and add two tablespoons I. Think Vodka just park something like that. That shot okay. That will work might have to play with the numbers but. Yeah I made a Pumpkin sorbet and I made a orange survey that called for orange juice. And it was just too sweet. Well, it was okay for when I tasted it. Immediately after using my kitchenaid up before I, stuck it in the freezer again, it tastes very sweet and I did tone down once it was right older when things are frozen food tasteless less. The other thing to do to have a complete cheat is. Grenada, which is Chunky icy frozen fruit. Well okay. But at least you don't have to worry about it work fine. But I would try to tablespoons and cut the sugar by a Quarter Cup and see what happens I might work. Okay. We'll do. All right bye. This is most radio. If you have a cooking question, gathering eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three, that's eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three or email us at questions at milk. STREET RADIO DOT COM. Welcome to mill street WHO's calling? Kinda my name is Sharon Hi Sharon how are you? I'm fine. Thank you. How can we help you? Okay. So I found the recipe and calls for Carib molasses. This is a really exotic ingredient that I can't find anywhere locally and online. It's pretty expensive. Toes wondering substitute regular molasses or is there a doctor regular molasses to give it? Something like a Carib flavor well. Malaga's has chocolate flavor for obvious reasons dismayed made from Kara pods molasses is made by boiling down sugar as part of that process, which obviously has its own flavor depending on whether it's lighter dark right the recipes you're talking about called for character, just house for caramelizes. So I wondered if there was a work around. I would just use regular Melas and I promise tenders lighter molasses instead of got a different on. Different or here's another idea I'm assuming this is a middle. Eastern. Recipes that correct that is correct and use pomegranate molasses. That's very appropriate. Fabulous. Fabulous. Should you think the pomegranate molasses would be probably better than just using regularly. It's much more complex. It's gotTa sourness to it. It's got a BRIGHT NITSA RICHNESS IN FRUIT EAR. Yeah. It's sort of like little Sam Vinegar and that is rich and thick and. I think it's brighter. I think it's really if you want the world's Best Vinaigrette at about a teaspoon to your vinaigrette recipe. It's really. Yeah it's worth having, and the thing that said this is a Middle Eastern. It's appropriate symbol eastern ingredient. That's good job right mostly. Hey. Boy. Hey This is mostly radio. Now it's time for some culinary inspiration from one of our listeners. Hey. My name is Jalen from Cambridge. Massachusetts and my tip is when you have leftover butter wrappers when you take out a stick of butter to put it in your butter dish. But those butter irs plastic baggie in the freezer, and then you need to pick something increase hand, take out the butter wrappers and use them. And the accessories to make depend nice and smooth. If. You'd like to share your own cooking tips on most J. radio. Please go to one seven, seven milk street dot com slash radio temps. Next up it's mad. French food scientists at news. Alex you. I'm good. How are you? Good. How are things in in? Paris. Things that okay I would say I've been doing a bit too much instagram. I've been eating instagram too much lately stomach ache. Feel bad I feel bloated with all these pictures of. Bread everybody seems to be baking right so at a At a French, Bake your lovin. You. Always think if they're faking it I, think they are faking it. That's what I think. I I've got a belief that I wanNA share with you. I believe. That learning how to make any type of really basic yeast based whitebread. We'll have a way greater impact on your life. You'll if you'll home-cooked then learning how to make well. Yeah, I. Agree I mean also sourdot was used because that's all they had. That's it wasn't like Oh let's make sourdot sourdot was the only way to make bread before commercial east and now everyone put sour dough on a pedestal I I think sour dough is overwhelming for lots of foods anyway. I mean it's great but just a basic white bread is much more versatile, right? Yeah it's it's. That's the way things started for me. So I'm going to tell you a bit of my Stilian and how I got into bed making so It's probably the same case scenario in the US but infants people eat lose of bread but to be honest, they don't bake so much. Plenty Home Kooks that I know they'll be afraid of baking bread. As a kid growing in homes that was the case at my place, we didn't bake bread I got that you can't bake bread at home it has to be kept for proficient notes. Okay. So that's a bit sad but that is something I challenged when I grew up as cook. So I did what I do when I take a new recipe I just exploded I from a philosophical point of view I learn about yeast I learn about puffing times about the ingredients about different timings and the temperature and I thought well, it doesn't seem to be Hawk at science so I tried very simple bread. And I failed obviously a few times. But then at some point. It happened. I had my first. Real bread. And was white bread was just simple yeast based Sandwich bread. So it's soft. It's not a slap in the face of flavor. It's more like a conveyor belt that you would use for bread and butter for peanut butter, and Jelly for making sandwiches for all these stuff the way way way way way to people Harris eat peanut, butter, and Jelly. For you. Hey Peter Butter jellies, good stuff man I like it. I had it as a kid in the US and the bread I just baked was perfect for that. Then, then I discovered that so could be made at home. So I started. Documenting myself like many filling up my notebooks with. Values and portions and ingredients, and then I, started experimenting and to be honest the thing I remember the most about that period, it was really complicated to get to something I would be pleased with and at some point I almost thought about giving up I thought it's just too much work. Okay. Finally, I got something I could call Sarah. It looked beautiful in the picture on Instagram, and on on my social media and I was proud of it. You tasted great. Maybe not as good as the one I could find in a bakery but. Right now, I want to come back to how I felt when I begged my loaf of bread the white bread. I. Have to say I'm starting to feel like your therapist. I just want you are Chris this is Alex I news confess hundred books trick I'm always looking for these session with you. I don't even charge for it. That's amazing. That's the best part. Okay. So I remember how I felt with my white bread I felt a great amount of self esteem. I'm not even kidding with it. I had more confident and I thought well, this is me now I can do this and that is so use food as hong-kook. My soul didn't felt crushed and abusing wandered the way he'd has been why was learning how to make so Indiana I realized something sour the. Will make you look good. Why Brad instead of making you look good it will make you feel good. You will be better hong-kook. Let's place it simply. So you've. Essentially, saying, make some white sandwich bread and you'll be a happier more satisfied person. I think so and and you will stop believing in yourself the white bread road to happiness by Alex I news available soon everywhere. Alex that was inspirational. You found something you believe in. Now. You can eat it with peanut butter and Jelly, and Jedi. Looking up to me. Alex, thank you so much. Have a good one. Youtube host Alex I news. He's also the author of just two French guy cooking. Alexai News love to make white brain, which got me thinking about white foods. Many have a bad referee containing little nutrition and that includes white bread white rice, white potatoes, white sugar, and White Pasta. But you might ask what about cauliflower chicken breasts, navy beans, milk, and coconut. It's always what's inside the counts. That's for today. If you tuned into later listen again, you can download and subscribe to Milk Street radio and apple podcasts, spotify stitcher or you find your podcasts to learn more about milk street. Please go to one, seven, seven, Milk Street, dot com theory download each week's recipe watched the latest season of television show or or latest cookbook milk street fast and slow instant pot cooking at the speed you need. You can also find us on facebook at Christopher, Kimball Milk Street in on instagram and twitter at one, seven, seven street. We'll be back next week and thanks as always for listening. Christoper Kimble's Milk Street radio is produced by extreme in association with W. G. B. H. Executive Producer Melissa Bongino Senior Audio Editor Melissa Allison Co Executive Producer Andy sensabaugh associate producer Jackie noack. Production Assistant Sarah Clap and production help from Debbie Paddock senior audio engineer. David. 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Pasta Grannies: Lessons from Italys Pasta Masters

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

52:53 min | 1 year ago

Pasta Grannies: Lessons from Italys Pasta Masters

"Buttermilk pancakes Saturday tradition. In my house I always make them with. King Arthur flower the lack of bleaching the quality of the week makes fluffy tasty pancakes and by the way the higher protein content means. I can use their purpose flour even making bread so in my household of Arthur. It's not flower now. A special offer for Milk Street St Listeners. Please go to King Arthur flower dot com slash Milk Street to get twenty five percent of several of their great products for the holiday season. US Promotion Code. Mlk A. S. T. R. E.. Hi this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading. This week's podcast. You can go to our website. One seven seven seven Milk Street dot com to recipes to stream or television show or to get our latest cookbook. Enjoy the show This is extreme radio from peer Ex. Post Christopher Kimball today Robin Russell. Geyser tells us why she he asked perfect strangers to lunch and to a great surprise. Almost everyone accepted her invitation. I was at a Kentucky Fried Chicken and there was a man next to me ordering and I asked him the question and he began looking at me like I. It was a three headed something or other than it. Something shifted in him and he said Yeah. That would be also coming got ballots. I news attempts to make a one million layer puff pastry that we serve up Portuguese style. Sweet Potato Rolls I. It's my interview with Vicky Venison who travels across steadily in the search for pasta making grandma's from her Youtube Channel Pasta Granny's she recently published the Pasta Granny's cookbook Vicki welcome to milk street absolute pleasure to be talking to you. So few years ago You realized that some of the classic Classic Cooking Techniques Culinary History of Italy was being lost and you started to record non granny's Andy's making pasta question. What has changed in Italy in Italian homes so that some of these take Niks and recipes are not being continued The same changes that are happening everywhere else in the world Women are going out walk. TUCK and simply don't have the time and there is a continuing reliance on Nana to make Sunday lunch and that has served them well so far but I think the changes coming is over the next twenty years. What Nana will be making will be quite different to opt up to now So I thought let's capture it while it's still there and that's why I picked up the camera. Will Maybe Fifty Years American grandmothers will be making him a pasta. I and then we will be heating up. TV dinners. Yes I mean that would be fun. Wouldn't it is. That's that's one of the reasons for actually having the Youtube channel just to inspire people. I'm not expecting people to stop making pastor every day in the way that women have been doing but perhaps to find enjoyment in making passed a couple of times a month or once or twice a year. How do you go about filming this? Well I stopped by thinking king about where do I want to go in Italy And what pastors have I not filmed yet so I'm always on the lookout for mentions of obscure pastors STAS as well as the obvious ones of course because sometimes I forget that I haven't done Fettuccini for example so We decide that we want to go to Liguria. And I'm working with a woman called Liberty Giovanni and she's my granny finder and Libya and I work out who we think. We'll be good to contact. So that's often the organizers of food festivals the local council and also word of mouth One of the things as we often do is find on a train or a hotel receptionist and we say. Do you have a grandmother. That's always asking film film one segment a day or two segments day. Are we film two to three day. And there's Livia who comes house with me and then I have a cameraman Andrea. WHO's also Italian? And he's extremely good at eating pastor Which is important because the grandmothers are making the pastor? Sta For us not for Youtube not for the audience you know for us and so we have passed a three or four times a day. Yeah you'RE GONNA have a lot of listeners. There's really feeling terrible about your your job. So let's talk about some of the shapes the video. I just couldn't stop watching and I don't remember the name of this pasta but it was very very thin stretched pasta over a straw not best but but a circle and just going join like. I could not imagine how this woman was doing this. It was could you just describe it because it was. I couldn't take my eyes on. Isn't that a map. Pastor is called Sufi Lyndale And you only find it of from a town in Saudi Nicole Nuro. It's associated with the religious legis festival. And so you don't eat normally. I mean it's it's quite one of those mad things as you. Go to all that efforts you. You stretch the doe a a bit like Chinese noodles wheat noodles that you get sometimes and Having got all your strands you then sort of lay them over this. The special flat flat basket disc. It's quite large. Yes it is. These BOSCA DISC can be about seventy centimeters wide. So you'll stretching these These past strands over that disk and you layer it three times in different directions and you end up with these sort of like wool strands of wool. And then you break it up and you dissolve into mountain stock which you know is crackers. Because I sort of feel that it should be sort of left as works of art because it so extraordinary. Well you know when you watch someone cook once in a while you go. There's not enough time left for me me to ever figure out how to do this because you have to do that for a lot of years to get thyroid she made it look easy but it wasn't wasn't what are some of the other shapes that you found. Wow that were just things you didn't know about. They were pretty amazing. Yes I mean there is so many I mean one of the first ones I came across it was really obscure. Is something called pea. Zack which is a kind of dumpling. Type Pastor from north of Lake Zero so is practically into Switzerland's Switzerland and you is actually means baby's nappies charming. That's a great marketing. Chris Forty really. Why isn't very popular? And so you kind of it's like swatting. Close is the way that you fold them like you. When you're rapping old fashioned babies nappies over a child and That served up with lashings of butter. So that was one that was fun and and the other one I liked from that same area was the Luma Kelly Dillon do Kesse. which is the Duchess's snails and this was originally given to noble women after having had a baby? Yeah I think you said that It has cinnamon in it is is that yes very unusual or cinnamon. Not that unusual and Pasta. The cinema would have been hugely expensive expensive now. Of course it's business but It was believed that everything that went into this plate of of soup pastor and Roth was maximize is to Helping women recover from the ordeal of giving birth so so you've interviewed two hundred grandmothers what what surprises you. One of the things. I've really appreciated from interviewing over. Two hundred women is the advice for growing old which is to stay really active. All these women have been on their feet all their lives. No one ever sits down and watches television. That always busy busy busy And I think the theme that comes through is the frugality of these women. We've forgotten that about how to use every last little piece of of dough or meats and nothing goes away says all really precious. Is there a grandmother. You particularly remember For whatever reason you'd want to share with us I think one of the things that comes through for me and it's not necessarily a granny is family Omni life and the willingness to have a party at a drop of a hat whenever we go there. It's a celebration and we ended up being surrounded by friends and Family Family toasting grandmother and what she's made. I think that's fantastic. I think in terms of answering your question about particular granny's Janis I have to say that the CEO who's one hundred years old and still making pastor is my current favorite. But I I I find it very difficult to just say one. I think I love the mall. Well may you and I both be one hundred years old someday and still making pasta exactly Vicky thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure having you on thank you. That was Vicky Pattison. Her new book is Pasta. Granny's secrets to Italy's best home cooks right now. My Co Oh Ho Sara Moulton. I will be answering a few cooking questions. Sarah is of course the author of home cooking one on one also star Sara's weeknight meals on public television Sarah glad to see you. Thank you Chris. So let's open up the phone lines. Welcome welcome to milk street. Who's calling towers Lynn? Where you calling from okay? That's Chris Territory. Yeah any rate. How can we help you today? Well well I've had some problems getting jam to set. I Make Freezer Jim. And the last batch I made I split the peaches in half and had one batch. That's that's fine. And the other batch did not. There were slight differences between the two one and was half cinnamon half peach. Mango the other batch called for Vanilla being but I used to Bonilla Extract Act. And that's the batch that did not set it's gotta be because there was too much liquid. There was alcohol in the Vanilla extract. So I thought I would try gets more peaches a little while later and I thought I would get some vanilla beans so I went to the grocery store to get some sticker shock and I thought no I really want to figure it Out so I went ahead and bought them. I made another batch. In On my good heavens it was fabulous the flavor's really good that fine. How much of the Vanilla extract was call for the recipe? Well the recipe called for Vanilla. And I just substituted thinking that I could get away with that. Probably like somewhere more between a teaspoon and a tablespoon. You do a lot of boiling jam. So you're gonNA boil eighty ninety percent of that alcohol off. I don't think it was the venue I don't think it was was the vanilla. I have a lot of variance between badges and getting just the right temperature and this and that and the other thing. Let's also focus on the fact that you made a separate batch when you use is the actual vanilla beans. The peaches were different peaches. Maybe it'd different ripeness and maybe a different amount of liquid or using pectin to thicken sure. Yeah there two kinds. There's the regular box and there's the pink box one low sugar if you're making a lower sugar fruit jam. You need to use the low sugar pectin. One of them was explain it out his freezer Picton. So did you use different Pectin for different batches news. Yeah I just ripped whatever I had on. The shelf didn't work had different than the one that did work The first two batches had the same kind of packed and the Pectin in the box. And then the third batch had the Pectin from just US spoon it out. It's from a jar I would use the pectin use the second batch and try that with the liquid vanilla extract and see what happens. Yeah Chris have you worked with. There's a company Tony that makes the really designer vanilla extract it begins with an am Massey. Any they make vanilla bean paste. Good I'm not saying it's not expensive but it lasts a lot longer. It's a lot more affordable than than beans and it's a very nice product. Yeah that's an excellent. I talked to sit does make a difference anyway. Try the last batch with that Pectin and see what happens. Yeah thanks for calling. Thanks so much. Take Care bye-bye take care bye. Welcome to St. WHO's CON? Hi I'm Brendan from Fresno California. Carry you do well. You pretty good. I think we're both very good. Yes yes okay. How can we help you? I was just wondering about the nutritional content or readings on products for example. Like the can of Chichen Itza the sodium content is huge. It's like twelve hundred milligrams or something for one can of chicken coup. So does that change once you drain away all the packing liquid in the same thing with like like Bacon when you Cook Bacon you know just the calorie content change because you're you're draining away and you're just using the bacon well bill. I'm going to start with the Bacon because that's easier. They mean cooked Bacon. 'cause the fats in there when it's raw and then it's not in there when it's cooked. I do have a question question. Which is why would you look at the nutrition label on a big package of Bacon? Because I mean it is Bacon. Well I mean when you're when you're monitoring nutrition like I'm an athlete so I monitor my certain so I like to keep a close eye on that stuff silver okay. I think Sarah's right though. I think the leftover Greece and the pants not counted and as for canned chicken. I mean it certainly you drain it. But it's still GONNA be pretty high in sodium. Maybe you could rinse said. That's what I've been doing. I think improves flavor anyway. I was just generally curious to just labeling in general I mean that was just my example check in you know but just you know does it consider and even like garbanzo beans or kidney beans that kind of stuff because what if you poured into a super news the entire. Can you know or baking if you drop into the being. I render that that up and then just add the beans in in Portland water on top. Just Cook it all together and you leave the fat in there It's lucious well. I'll tell you what we don't know the answer. We will post it and our website when seventy seven MILK STREET DOT COM of question. Answer for them. We'll check it out and we'll posted take a couple of days. Yeah stumped you where do you get. It feels great. He says what does he get. You start giving out. We're going to win in money if they stump us but that's that was a good one. We'll post it on the website. Yes okay thanks thanks. Cool this radio. If you have a question give us a call at eight five five five four two six nine eight four three. That's eight five five four two six nine eight four three or email us at questions at mill street radio DOT COM. Welcome to milk street. WHO's calling hi? This is Kelly Kelly where you're calling from Green. How can we help you today? I have a question about pancakes aches. I like to make them in batches but then when I store them and reheat them they taste awful like they don't taste like anything. Storing them in the refrigerator freezing them. I've tried both but the freezer is usually worse but I would. Ideally like took them in the freezer. How do you reheat them? Then right now just in the microwave. I think you could freeze them. As long as they're well wrapped we stopped for just a second. Yeah you're doing this because you don't want my my kids love pancakes and you don't WanNa make everytime breakfast every day breakfast. Yeah well there's a cheap you know which choose you can buy a pancake. Mix where you add a little like an egg and milk in some of those actually pretty good so if you wanted not to go through the whole thing thing that would be a better solution terms of flavor and texture than reheating something. That's been frozen or refrigerated. So I know that's terrible cheat. That's the one time name where I think I give you my in premature to go out and buy something. I have leftover pancakes. How can I make them taste? Good okay well. That's the different. I would say. Put them in the freezer and then I would reheat them in the oven on parchment and put some foil over so that they don't dry out or at least Bacon flight three fifty. Okay now we're GONNA have a food fight. No and then uncover the after Kaneohe. Look the point. Is I know what this is like. You have four minutes to get breakfast. Just on the table they got to go to school. You gotta go to work to heat. An oven to three fifty takes fifteen minutes to I. When you get up? Make pancakes cakes. No I would say are experienced at Milk Street is popping them in a toaster is the best but I just think it's never going to be even close goes to freshly made fifty percent worse. We know maybe that's fine. Yes they don't mind. I don't think a microwave. I think we can agree on that. I say oven and brush the sheet pan with butter and then put them out she pen brush a little butter on top ooh yum. Now we're Talkin. I can respect Mrs Pancake Fisher pancakes every Saturday more. I know a freshly made. Pancake is a work of Art Kaley. Do what what you want with. I'll do it from a mix of fresh. Thanks for calling. Take you're listening to most of your radio up next. We're talking with Robin Russell. Geyser about her memoir open for lunch which details her life of sharing meals with complete strangers. That's coming up in just a moment in no. The modern kitchen is nothing like when I grew up with the choices of fixtures sinks lighting a major appliances are well overwhelming and. That's why whether you're planning your dream kitchen. Jenner building. Your Dream Home Ferguson. Bath kitchen enlightening gallery can help start by browsing the online inspiration. Gallery on Ferguson Showrooms Dot Com and then requested an appointment with your local product expert and they work with designers builders and other trade professionals to meet your specifications while exceeding your expectations. VISIT FERGUSON SHOWROOMS DOT COM today to request your appointment. How would you like to take a private cooking? Class from the likes of Gordon Ramsay. MCI Wolfgang Puck. Or maybe even Thomas Keller or maybe you want to know something about comedy from Steve Martin or the art of magic from Penn and teller or maybe aboard we're course on investigative journalism. Well now you can online at your own pace using masterclass they have over sixty classes and new ones are added all the time you can take classes classes on your phone tablet apple television or computer and at approximately ten to fifteen minutes. In length masterclass lessons can fit into any schedule. Plus they have a thirty day money back guarantee when you sign up for an annual membership so I highly recommend that you check it out get unlimited access to every master class and as a Christopher Kimble's milk street radio listener you get fifteen percent off the annual all access pass just go to masterclass dot com slash milk. One more time that's masterclass dot com slash. M I L K for fifteen percent off masterclass. This is most your radio. I'm your Host Christopher Kimball right now. It's my interview with Robin Russell. Geyser a writer and Certified Music Therapist Practitioner based in Asheville North Carolina. Robin welcome to Milk Street. Well thank you so much Chris. I loved your book open for lunch. Why don't you just give us the basic the concept of the book you invite people to lunch at the last minute standing in line at a casual restaurant of some kind? Yes that's exactly right About sixteen years ago there was someone in front of me and something moved me to say to her you know. Would you like to eat lunch with me. And she of course looked at me rather funny and then she said Oh okay and the stories that I have learned from perfect strangers over the lunch table have really moved me. And so the the book besides decides the stories of the Lunch people then turns out to my story because they teach me so much in their stories that tell my story while I was going to ask about that because as I was reading your book recently I started adding up all the things that have happened to you. Yes and it's quite I mean I don't mind bringing up because you wrote it down the book But young a young artist list them off young widowhood cancer before forty panic disorder prescription drug addiction surgical errors to serious car accidents. I is is quite a list and the obvious connection is you're trying to get some answers and maybe you get some of them through people at lunch absolutely sometimes You know life was pretty rough and I don't appear to be anyone who looks like that but the interior is is deep and has needed forgiveness health wellness Mus Looking for all of that in my life and so I would come away from these stories that that affected me deeply and and then the next thing you know my own story came alive as well and in this particular book I have really taken the dive. He is the book. Also about forgiving. Yourself for things you feel guilty about your situation life absolutely especially usually with my mother She and I use the word. Tangled had a tangled relationship. And you know she and my father married as as soon as he came back from World War Two they hardly knew each other. They had me while my dad was going to Ub for his engineering hiring degree and my mother was was Had already gotten hurt her degree and she was a singer and pianist and that was her calling well that ended in a when she started having children and she didn't ever really I think look at the life that she would have liked to live. I think about the times when I was younger and she would be a soloist singing. Let's say say she would be A paid solis singing something for the Messiah. And of course I was bored as all get out because I was nine years old and I thought oh I just can't wait but now that I've come to realize that that was a passion. She had I understand And Ken then forgive her for the way she was as a mother because she was never happy and I think there was also some depression but you know in those days so what you know you just keep on going you know. Both of US grew up in a generation where nobody would stop by like. Hey how you doing enjoying everything. Oh absolutely and I realized you know that particular time in history What did you do you got married? And you had kids and no one would have stopped and thought well do we. Do we really want to do this. You you know it was unheard of. So let's go back to your first lunch lady launch experience. I was Lois. You you were up in Near Saratoga Springs New York so your description which lavender gray hair thinning so her bauge scalp peek through no hatter boots data glasses with yellow. Plastic frames quilted Maroon car coat mint green polyester slacks. Her shoes were white type sneakers. So here's someone from from the outside you know nondescript But Y her. Why did you pick her? Something led me to ask her for lunch. Maybe I was lonely that day. The store or was not very crowded you know we were at Walmart of all places because that was the only game in town it was as it was sixteen miles away from where we lived in the ADIRONDACKS. Thanks and she was in line and and when I saw her face when she turned around I think there was something something in her. That looked distraught and I think there must have been something that day. That told me this woman woman was struggling and as it turns out that was absolutely true and so it was just amazing because I just kind of sat back and let her talk and when she left not only I think did she feel better but I did too in your book. You quote Oliver Sacks and other author a doctor of course well-known and he writes about peoples inner lives Quote gaping wounds engaged expression. So I gather you agree with doctor. Sax that people in their personal life have have a lot of tragedy And just about every one I have come encounter with is such a person and then I ask. The question who among us doesn't have things that go around in our lives or drag us down that we keep secret one of the remarkable things. I think a listener would immediately think about is known this person for an hour or two how could it. Why would someone open up so much to you in such a short amount of time? I really still don't know the answer. I think I'm safe. I'm not a family member. I'm not a doctor and people just open up a to me. I can't explain why I guess I'm non-threatening you gotTa have a little bit more than that. I'm sorry I think you're clearly somebody people enjoy talking to. Are there people who just managed to get through life with without any of the trials and tribulations or do we all have. It's hard to say I certainly would not want to make a you know a sweeping gesture but I would say that there are some people who have more happen to them than others and I think I'm one of them and because of that. I think I'm very tuned in to others who go through stuff and I can sense it yesterday. Yesterday we visited a ninety four year old woman at a nursing home and she began just pouring her heart out and And telling us how she was lonely and that her family didn't visit her as often as she wanted to. And all that. And she's been a friend for years and she said I'm sorry I didn't mean to dump on you and I said I am so glad that you feel comfortable doing that and continue to do that. And then she said I know you get it and so it's really neat to be a person who who hears that you've been doing this a long time And and and one might think the nothing surprises you at this point but have you in the last. I see your to been surprised by something that happened at a lunch. One thing I wanted to add Chris is that I have friends. As a result of these launches with whom I keep contact I was at a Kentucky Fried Chicken and I was ordering my lunch and and there was a man next to me ordering and I asked him the question and he began looking at me like I was a three headed something or other. And then he then it something shifted in him and he said Yeah that would be okay and he proceeded seeded to tell the most amazing story and the story stuck with me so much so I asked him if if I could use his story on my blog and he said yes so he and I get together for lunch and he he is now writing and he said you've changed my life. He said you have no idea how much you asking me for lunch. That day. Meant if you're standing in line a lunch line at a restaurant your conclusion will be just have no idea based on what people look like. What's going on inside is an odd to all talk to anybody And there'll be somebody in line and I'll just say you know if you're by yourself I am to. You WanNA eat lunch together. Robin Uh thank you so much for for being millstream spend a real honour. Well it's been my pleasure as well Chris. Thanks so much for contacting me. That was Robin. Russell Geyser. Her Memoir is called open for lunch It's time to head into the kitchen and milk street. The chat with Catherine Smart about this week's recipe Portuguese style. Dial Sweet Potato Rolls Catherine Harry you. Whatever editors Albert lives in Spain so he does a lot of European trips for us? He was Lisbon has been Portugal. He ordered a sandwich from a local cafe and what was interesting was not filling. It was the role and turn out to be sweet potato role with a really interesting in Texas. We brought it back the milk street. And what did we do. Well Chris. These roles are called Bolo Doco and they are so delicious like you said. They have a nice kind of delicate sweetness S.. From that sweet potato. And then we get the krom which is Kinda crispy and Chewy at the same time by using a really interesting cooking method so we start by probably boiling journals right as a basis for the doe. That's recoilless sweet potatoes but we actually season the water there. Boil de with a little bit of honey and some salts and some butter and that's because that water is going to be blended ended in with sweet potatoes to make a fine mash that will then go into the dry ingredients. But it's really important. You don't rush this step Chris you wanna let the sweet potatoes cool because they will kill the yeast if if you put screaming hot sweet potatoes so is this more like pizza dough with as one proof and is not a rise. Is that how this works. That's right crest. There's just the one proof so once you have your ingredients it's all mixed together. You shape the individual rounds so you can imagine. These are kind of like an English muffin. They're going to each individual sandwich. And then you cover it and let it it rise for about thirty minutes you want them to double in size baked in the oven. Or like a regular Brent. Well this is where it gets interesting so traditionally these are made totally on the stove top. I'm I'm like a skillet or griddle. We decided because we wanted to cook some all at the same time to Brown them on the outside and then finish them in an oven so this is a typical bread. Recipe in terms is a time was two or three hours. But it doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of actual active time. That's right you need a few hours set aside but it's not a lot of work and I'm telling you Chris Totally worthen often. Usually you say that about the food those good guy. That's why you work air so Portuguese sweet. Potato Rolls from Lisbon doesn't matter what you put inside of them because the roles themselves are so good. Thank you Catherine. Thanks Chris. You can get this recipe for Portuguese style. Sweet potato rolls at one seven seven MILK STREET DOT com. This is most your radio coming up. Alexai news tries to make a puff pastry with over one million layers. We'll be right back. com Thanksgiving is upon us in Hill Street. We want to offer you a few new ideas recipes and techniques for the holiday table. Please go to one. Seven seven milk street dot com slash Thanksgiving for for free access to our two thousand nineteen Thanksgiving roundup and happy Thanksgiving from everyone at Milk Street. I'm Christopher Kimball. You're listening to milk street. Radio up next Sara Moulton. I will solve a few more of your culinary mysteries. Welcome to milk straight. WHO's calling this? Is David Vogler Uglier from Winston Salem North Carolina David. How can we help you today? My question is what does that them gum. It has to do with biking or what affects does it have on you know. It's interesting because Sam you always saw as something listed in baked goods kids but I never really focused on it until the gluten free era came along. Because it's used a lot in gluten free cooking it provides elasticity in stickiness to does that. Don't have the gluten in them. Also it has. Many uses can stabilized suspensions. It's added to ice cream to prevent crystals from forming. And the cool thing about is is you don't have to heat it or chill at for it too thick and you just combine it with Liquid Frist. You want to add anything to that. Well it's a sort of a thickener stabilizer stabiliser outside of gluten free baking right. That's what it's sauces or anything like that. But yeah you see it if you look at the back of those bags that gluten-free flowers or mixes X.'s. It's one of those things along cornstarch and other stuff yeah. Does that. Answer your question David. When you mentioned the elasticity that the I'm baked biscuits. I started this sometime back. This to as a bit of a hobby and My family they sometimes the biscuits will come out a little dry and crumbly and I was wondering if that would help with the last his last equality now for biscuits. Do you remember your recipe two cups of flour. And how much fatty is QUARTER RECAP OF Vegetable Lard and Two tablespoons of butter I use of pastry cutter. But sometimes I'll do You're about right I use seven tablespoons total four butter in three of the Lord. But you might add an additional tablespoon. That would help. Yeah I was thinking the fat content. That might be the problem. Then use buttermilk or regular milk or buttermilk on I have and sometimes I'll hello heavy cream around I'll splash. You're heavy cream with the mill. Well you sound like you're a biscuit pro. My guess would be that you're probably measuring measuring the flower not weighing it. Correct to Cook sifter. Mom had when I was small and use it to cub up sifter and a flour. And what is it a four twenty-five oven for twelve minutes something like that. Yeah it sounds like you're doing everything right. I mean the only the reason they would be crumbling. They didn't have enough fat. But I just had an extra tablespoon or your over baking them the flower can differ also depending on the time of year. But you would just the liquid to get the right field Sisto so you can roll it out and cut it. I don't think you need anthem. Come I think no I don't either. I'd say just up the fat or fat and just make sure you don't over bake it. Yeah okay okay. Sounds like you're pro or David David. This is most radio. If you have a cooking question gives us a ring any time the numbers eight five five four two six nine four three. That's eight five five four two six nine eight four three or email questions at mill street radio DOT COM. Welcome to most street. WHO's calling? I'm born and where you calling from from bothell Washington. How can we help you? Well I have a little bit and then esoteric question for you guys. We are pretty close to the cafes. Take a Lotta lobster mushrooms around and I'm not sure what else to do with them. Other than risotto. Almost like enforce them suggestions from you guys reddish orange ones that are white and so the don't taste like lobsters now and they're fairly dense to once you cut them open enter large as big as like care and a half pounds piranha mushroom. Well no wonder you're at a loss as to what to do with with them if I had a ton of mushrooms I didn't know what to do with them. I do Duke Sell Right interesting. Because I don't usually go the French route. Sarah just popped right up out of overture so yes. It's a mixture where you chop mushrooms you sautee a few shallots and then you chop the mushrooms really fine quarter inch dice. And then add them to the shallots Cookham till they are basically give off all their liquid and then use them really a stuffing offing right. Yeah it stuffing you can put them with Omelets or anything else. The other thing you do is grill right. I mean if I would fire up the grill and you got a couple pounds of lobster mushrooms grill. Yeah yeah that idea for grilling once you grill a meat fish. Whatever your protein if you have enough charcoal on the grill or two gas grill always use that residual Joel heat to then grow vegetables? That's what I do onions peppers anything else. You might as well get more out of the Grill and mushrooms would certainly be one of the things you can do on the grill. It also seems like since they're so large and since they're so firm. It really makes a lot of sense to do that. They'll stay together and won't there meaty either media. They won't fall through the cracks because the question is the taste fairly bland or does it have a strong flavor. It's more on the brand side. Just just like a hint of seafood. I was wondering what you guys thought about maybe shredding them like with a bigger size shredder and doing some sort of I don't know can you. He like put them in like a soup. Somehow or will you could certainly put him in a soup like a mushroom soup. You know of lobster mushroom barley soup or something like that. I've tried them and I put them in Egg And then there was that. Oh I'm pretty much three trick pony right now other than you could do is what they do in Italy. I was recently in northern Italy and they fry mushrooms they portray the you know. This is the time of year the falls at time of year. They have so many they you know flour them and put them in hot oil. Will you can put them in a battery in batter and you can get rid of a lot of them that way. I mean they're really taste great. That would be a simple way to do it. The other thing you could do is just to slice them. Emma Saute am and then freeze them after. You've done that. And then just add them to soups and stews. Throughout the year. They freeze I guess they would if you have them. It's the problem I'm Lou with any vegetables. The amount of liquid so once you cook them and get rid of the excess liquid then they would freeze very nicely and they like fat. I imagine most mushrooms do so saw payment payment oil or butter until their tender ish. And then you know freeze them in batches and then you can use them that way. This time of year in the fall. How many pounds announced you end up with sprang like say the ten pounds pretty quickly? Yeah it's like give them away because it's just more than I can deal with I think grilling and shopping. Two dollar is something you can freeze would be great. Yeah once you come down or deep frying battered. Yeah thanks for calling yes. Thank you time for some cooking inspiration from one of our listeners. This is David Harrison in Rochester. New York I have a cooking tips. I use the tomato test to determine whether my knives are sharpened. Sharpen up some people try to use a serrated knife on a tornado which is fine and convenient but I like to use use my other knives as way of telling whether the knives are sharp enough for general use. If I can't cut a tomato with a regular non-separated knife I know he's trying to sharpen the Nice So that's my tip. Thank you bye. If you'd like to share your culinary hacker secret ingredient on milk street radio please go to one seventy seven military dot com slash radio tips next up. It's Mad French food scientists. Alex I news. Alex how are you. I'm I'm good. I'm good super 'cause I've been working with a puff pastry recently. No Really I. I did that once and I vowed out. I'd never do it again. So why would you not work with puff. Pastry professor is amazing. It's if any of the listeners familiar with it it's light and buttery laminated dough. That that we find in so many Swedes Dishes like is done of the just means that being a laminated composed of of layers in this case ultimately LEOs of both Liendo in layers of fatty in in my case. Just but I have a theory about the French in puff pastry. Come on shoot the French invented puff pastry to show how superior they are to every other culture because it's almost impossible to make. It is very hard. I'm on you just doing it because you can. That's right. I don't think it's that complicated to be honest. I think it's really time demanding. And the experiment have been conducting inducting very recently just pulled. My point takes a lot of time. But it's not that complicated one of the key specific of professors that it's crispy crispy it has to be crispy. Otherwise you're just not puff pastry and that an excess. So I thought what does the case come from it comes comes from the alternating layers and the stacking of them. But I thought could we just increase the kiss penis by increasing the number Ulvaeus so that sounds like kind of crazy idea but you went ahead and tried that and and so. How many years did you end up with? Oh hold on. Not so I I mean we need to be in pace with the soundtrack to make you experience. The sounds few pastry with me here. Okay I need is to be in place so this is a snappy sound because you need to know the differences snappy this not be yeah now if you stack a few eight years of snapping as you get some consciousness. Oh okay okay. Yeah and then. Further down the line if you want some perf- pastry delicacy deep. That's a deep one. That's deep one executive. So this is what I did first of all. Let me just do a quick super-quick wind back on how to make for phase three so it's like making the sandwich you take two layers of window and then a new squeeze a layer of butter in between. That's the starting point. And then you perform what is called a turn. You basically flattened that sandwich out and then folded on itself like a wallet so at the hotel. Obviously you only have three layers. You've got though but and though it burns India and stuff very interesting at at one turn. You've got three times. Three layers minus two because some fusing together that's seven layers togther alter and when you bake that it Scana burnt as well but it snappy now at to turn things start to get interesting you've got nineteen thin layers and you start to get a crispy feeling then exactly a Perth based refilling feel pastry feeling if if you know what I mean and starting from three towns of the way to sixty pounds you get the sound that you got. Initially you got the the puff pastry feeling that that very delegate light and sequenced kiss sp so three-term fifty five years for one hundred sixty three years of five dollars. Four hundred eighty seven and six thirty on one thousand four hundred fifty nine layers which is at six towns. Send US for French puff pastry so when you're talking about mill foy a thousand layers that's not high purple purple. You actually get over a thousand different layers right exactly. Thank you so much for these. Say That's beautiful I gave you. The numbers just is to show off but from mathematical point of view. It's exciting because this is not linear this is exponential right so so I thought what would it take to go to ten thousand layers to do one hundred thousand to a million layer puff pastry cook. Could I make make like the ultimate key spe- pastry at one million layer. So I did that I I just keep on folding keep on turning just gets me exciting so in other words you obviously don't go out very much anymore. I don't go out and I gave up on you've now ventured into the Dark Hall of Scoff. YEA here I came back down to Earth at the end of this experiment. It's not disappointing. But I think it needs to be stated. That's it's not worth it like at six towns in like the classic French pastry was really crispy but at uh eight hundred thousand. It started losing that clip. At ten towns in the door is not even crispy not even conscious. There's nothing like that lightly company and a twelve thousand even more disappointing. It feels like a cake in the end. You don't feel any layers anymore. Is that because with with the thinness at twelve or ten turns the butter and the dose of Mel Together. The really Oh yeah exactly. That's sad but you. You got it exactly right because all these layers. They'll just fused together and I just made that super time consuming cake. That did not even tasted that good. I will say well the obvious conclusion which I hate to say because it's in total support French cuisine. Which I like to make fun of occasionally is that six turns is actually the ideal so somebody had figured out that it's better than turns and tenders somebody had done this one hundred years ago and came up exactly the right number of turns right? Yes yes I agree with you but at the same time at three turns in. It's hard to tell the difference. I mean that pastry at three thousand so half half the amount of time needed for the six one. It's just very enjoyable. Why would we go above? Maybe four turns in. I mean I'm just talking about people who so still make their face three at home. I'm not sure this is like widely common do you. Do you make a face at home. You say no I think no I said I did. It was and realize you do I. Just yeah the the problem. Is the butter leaks out the site that keeping it in exactly the right shape Biz kind of difficult. But but I would say to you though that in classic French cooking in a professional kitchen which no one was making a puff pastry at home. Probably Ah The question of time was not an issue. Perfection was the issue not time soon but these days with today I wouldn't put my life normal but with a normal life you would definitely consider like having less work to do with that professor instantly getting some very very decent freezer. 'CAUSE at three turns in and that puff pastry is so much better than any commercial. Puff Pastry you can get your hands on. I swear I swear. Alexander News Scott Scott Theater. The twenty-first century I actually go try this now Yes I I'll do it for you. Thank you thank you so much. Thank you very much. That was youtube host. Alex I news. He's also the author of just a French guy cooking Earlier in the show Vicki Benson talked about her YouTube Channel Pasta Granny's recently in Bologna and cooked with half a dozen no-name on a Italian grandmothers. They fried dough. They rolled out huge sheets of pasta by hand in May thousands of Tortellini in Savino just outside of Bologna spent in the morning with a trio of Noni. It was suggested that I give one a kiss on the cheek which I did. Then the second one wanted to kiss and the third one wanted to kisses as they say that Samora That's it for this week's show if you tuned to later went to binge listen every single episode and you can download no extreme radio on your favorite podcast APP to learn more about millstreet. Please go to one seven seven milk street dot com there. You can find her recipes. Watch the new season of our TV show in order our latest cookbook. The new rules recipes. That will change the way you cook. We'll be back next week with more food stories and thanks as always for listening Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is produced by Milk Street in association with W. G. B. H. Executive Producer Assert Melissa Bongino senior audio editor. Melissa Allison producer. Andy sensabaugh associate producer. Jackie noack production assistant Japanese cone production and help w paddock senior audio engineer. David Goodman additional editing from Vicky Merrick Sydney Lewis and Samantha Brown and audio mixing from Jay Allison an avalanche public media and words Home Massacusetts theme music by Tube Crew. Additional Music by George Bernard Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is distributed by P R art.

Milk Street Chris US Christopher Kimball Italy Bacon Youtube Sarah Robin Russell Sara Moulton Lisbon Alex I Andy sensabaugh Vicki Benson Christopher Kimble David David Livia professor King Arthur King Arthur
The $180 Bottle of Water

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

51:12 min | 1 year ago

The $180 Bottle of Water

"Buttermilk pancakes or Saturday tradition in my house. I always make them with King. Arthur flower the lack of bleaching the quality of the week makes fluffy tasty pancakes and by the way the higher protein content means. I can use their all purpose flour even making bread so in my household of King Arthur. It's not flower. Dow A special offer for most listeners please go to King Arthur flower dot com slash Milk Street to get twenty five percent of several of their great products for the holiday season US promotion code. Mlk S. T. R. E. T. hi this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading this week's podcast you can go to our website one seven seven. Luke Street Dot Com for recipes and culinary ideas from around the world now here's this week's show and this radio from PX. I'm your host Christopher Compete water. It's no longer just a commodity. It's now a celebrity beverage. Today we chat with journalists. Dave's true about the Berkeley Springs international water tasting competition also about the troubling future of this precious resource from the research that I've seen there's concern that there will be a lot of people who simply will not have access to water how a a twenty twenty one hundred or something there might be nations fighting wars over water also coming up we share recipe for coconut milk rice pudding and Dan Pashmina S. one of the most pressing questions at one time. Should the pizza Emoji have pepperoni on it but I it's my interview with filmmaker David Gale. He's the director of the two thousand eleven hit documentary. Jiro Dreams of Sushi also the creator of the Netflix Docu series chef's table his latest Netflix series street food exports the rich street food culture of nine Asian cities David Welcome to milk street. Thank you for having me. You've had the career that I've always wanted. Did you did some sci-fi the Lazarus effect Jiro Dreams of Sushi probably my absolute favorite food documentary of all time now. You're doing wing street food then chefs table lots of things Jiro dreams of Sushi cutting yeah. I see a question about that that has of course how they massage gosh the octopus for forty five minutes and this incredible amount of attention to detail. Was that a story about his relationships with his sons and the people around him or is that a story about food well. I think that the journey of making it was was quite a revelation to myself. The other people I was working with because in our initial research and development we thought we were GonNa make a movie about about Sushi and about the art of Sushi and the different styles of making Sushi but what we found was that a much more compelling story is about a family and about people and then in the conflict of the film really comes from the sacrifice and the cost that it takes to devote yourself to that level I mean there's a moment in the film injured James of Sushi when we're are interviewing zero sons and they they say that it was like there was a stranger living in the House that would leave very early in the morning and come back very late at night and they would never see that person and that was their father you know I I think that there is a certain kind of is a trade off you know and that devotion require sacrifice and I think that's one of the things that makes it. It's such an interesting film traveled the world for chefs table interviewing lots of different chefs in different countries so you came across some some interesting moments too. I mean there's so much you know. one of the most memorable experiences and shooting chefs table was was filming filming our episode with the South Korean Buddhist nun John Kwan camp. Who is you know she's. She's a remarkable chef but she doesn't even call herself a chef. She's just a a non and she cooks and it's totally Vegan but it's totally delicious and so when I went to out to go shoot that episode. I thought that I was going to have a very very healthy experience kind of spiritual experience. Just eating okay. I'm going to eat Vegan for two weeks while we're shooting this thing and we start shooting on the first today and it's wonderful and we have this incredible lunch that John Kwan and her fellow nuns have prepared and it's so satisfying and delicious and unique and so when they invite us to come I'm back for dinner I say of course but then the leader of our uh in the South Korean contingent of our crew pulls me aside and and he says you know Koreans. We don't like temple food. We don't eat. It's an okay where would you like to eat and so of course they take us to a barbecue place you know and it's just you know it's Korean barbecue and so the rules of the temple cuisine you know meet of course no animal products walks and no garlic no onions of any kind because these kind of flavors they linger on the Palate and they create a sensation of increased hunger which can be distracting to meditation adaptation and then of course you're not supposed to drink but here we are in South Korea shooting this episode we're at a beef restaurant eating tons of beef with lots of garlic and drinking beers and stuff and the next day we come in to do the interview and she immediately could smell it all on us you know even after shower and it's like okay we smelled a very heightened senses and so she has no judgment but she was just laughing and being like Oh. You had the opposite of what you had for lunch and so. I thought that it was quite funny in Wall Street food. It seems to me you're getting deeper into the part of cooking. I love one examples in Seoul woman named Joe who's preparing and selling knife cut noodles and marketplace. Her husband got into debt and she had to go to work to pay for her kids education. Is that a different. You see that as a very different kind of series than chef's table or is just a simple extension of it well in street food. You know we found that the street food vendors have have very intense stories with oftentimes much higher stakes than the stories of our chef's chef's table and you know a lot of the street food vendors are cooking not because they want to or because they wanted to follow the glamorous life of being a chef which is really a a new concept in street food. They're often doing it justice survive or they're doing it because they want to continue the legacy of their ancestors. You know if they've even if they're the fourth or fifth generation you know cooking they they they take a certain pride in being able to continue that legacy and the other kind of interesting thing about street food food is that we really look at the city because street food is so closely integrated into the city that it is culturally. These vendors are there. They're part of the fabric of the culture in in every morning. People are going to work there stopping at the street food vendor. They're stopping at another one at lunch. That's probably near their office and they may be stopping at a third place on their way home. Tom and that's their everyday lives and there's kind of a social component to that where people in the neighborhood or hanging out and getting a bite outside at street food place and so there's that there's that element to it and then the history of these cities the events that took place in these in the city's very in the climates and the farmers and things like that these all have a huge effect on what they're cooking and we found that to be quite interesting as well. Let's step way way back and look at the arc that was fine dining right they were French restaurants in the sixties and seventies in New York then the American cuisine sort of took over everyone define that we have celebrity chefs. Now we have a move I think as you pointed out street food to just focusing on the greedy and something Simpler d do you see this as all part of a curve a natural progression and if so to what end to where where are we headed with us well. I think the the large curve the other big change in cooking comes from in France Nouvelle cuisine. You know the the traditional French cooking with so much about the technique technique and covering the food completely with sauce and so the product was less important than the technique and I think that the a big change in Nouvelle cuisine in France was that focusing on a delicious product and then leading all of the technique the sauce whatever it is it's all about elevating the inherent flavor within that product beat a meat vegetable fish whenever and I think that that is the progression of cooking Wolfgang Puck said something really interesting when I was talking to him recently and he was saying that you know my job. The job of the chef is to get the best ingredients and then to not the sounds like to to make yeah and so I think that that is that's the truth is it's respect for the farmers respect for the ingredients that you're getting and then you're cooking should be in service of that product product and not to cover it up with your artifice. David. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure having you a mystery all right. Thank you so much for That was filmmaker. David Gale Crater netflixing chefs table and also street food is time for my co host. Oh ceremony to answer your cooking questions series of course the author of home cooking one one in star of Sara's weeknight deals on public television Sara what's up. I'm good Chris but I have a very important question for you. What what is the recipe that you most hate to make that somebody says. Oh would you whip up a blip and you're like oh. I don't WanNa do that. That doesn't exist. I mean a Mac GonNa. Make Puff Pastry your or anything like that anytime any time soon but you mean or something people would actually asked me to me. I'm talking about Gen wasps on that one yeah well. The the problem was is the American sponge cake. Cake is an easier more foolproof better recipe. Jen was was designed to annoy American history. We absolutely agree on that one so there we go. We agree now. I think we take a call down with was welcome to milk street. Who's calling yes hello. This is Judy calling from Princeton New Jersey. Hi Judy my question for you today. I've got limited storage space for stockpots limited freezer space for you know holding large volumes of liquids so I'm wondering about the wisdom of making a vegetable stock and using the full complement of you know herbs and vegetables but only enough water to cover which you know maybe half two thirds of the water preparing it freezing it and then deluding backup doing the math to dilute it back up. I use it for soups and other uses kitchen. I think in general you probably don't WanNa start with less water but Sarah. You're a stock master. You know there's he says because I'm French trained and I still believe in making stock. If you make just a stock the normal way and you keep the bones covered with liquid even if you've cooked it for however long you're going to do it three four hours and you strain it. It's still going to be pretty weak. I almost always take my stock. Strain my stock and reduce it. Boil it down even just us to use it for soup because I find it pretty watery but if you simmer gently and it's really no big deal. You don't have to stand over it. You can take it all the way down till it's bouncy like car Jello. I mean that's even beyond the gloss and it will stay in your refrigerator for weeks and weeks and weeks. You don't even need to freeze it. Because what makes things go bad is all that liquid and once you get rid of most of that liquid down to the gelatin. It really keeps pretty well but if if you do WANNA freeze it just reduce it down till it coats the back of a spoon it's pretty thick and then you can put it in the freezer and smaller amounts and then you have just throw it in and add some liquid to oh. I actually just learned something from you. What not not the first time oh well I didn't know that the GEL if you produce it essentially to gelatin it can hold for weeks the fleas in your fridge and the fridge yeah now and I think it's worthwhile just thrown a tiny teaspoon in some water and it's so good and so much depth the flavor. It's just gold old. Oh I love that we actually answered. Somebody's question well. Thank you thank you. I feel firmly about this one so there we go to wonder Pat Fun with this yeah. Thank you so much. Call Gloss you said o'clock yeah very good. Thank you both alright. Welcome to milk street. WHO's calling hi. This is Steph. I'm calling from down on Cape Cod beautiful there it is it sounds like you're having a particularly beautiful day. It's always a beautiful day to bake on Cape. Cod sounds like that might be your question. Is it related to baking it. Is I have only ever use a hand mixer and a few weeks ago I was making a batch of whoopie pies and my hand mixer died so I got a stand mixer and and my I bake was more what be pies but something went very wrong because they cake batter sickened up so much that it really turned into more of a cookie dough which had never happened before so my only thought was I must have over beaten. The batter are two very traditional whoopie pie that I've used a lot before it's flower in Cocoa Baking Soda Salt Butter Crisco so brown sugar egg and Vanilla and then some milk and you start by creaming the butter and Chris go with the sugar. Yes you do the butter the shortening brown sugar beet that and then you add the egg and the Vanilla and beat it a little more and then you have your flour our next year with your cocoa and Soda and then you add that and the milk and a couple of stages and just beat it to combined you might have over beaten eaten at an early stage in the creaming process is what I'm thinking to begin with was at that early. Do you think in the process couldn't even started there. Yeah Oh dear okay okay the thing about stand mixers do they are very strong and you have to just figure out because the temptation is to just take him up to a high speed so so. Do you think you started at a lower speed or do you think you just tried to do. I think maybe three WANNA get up to half because I thought ooh. That's going to be you too far and I know that my butter was was room. Temperature were using the paddle attachment or the whisk attachment. I this is my first time using get so I actually started with the whisk for about twenty seconds and I realized nothing was happening so I moved over and use the paddle for the whistle yeah. If you're gonNA cream butter you need to use a whisk at the pedal attachment is for a batter but for creaming butter so you should have stayed with a whisk once you had the sugar due to the butter and the Chris going it should have been okay but also back to if butters too soft you see then it sort of starts to melt. Nowhere is going to get incorporated yeah so that's part part of the problem to use the whiskey and also don't let the butter get too warm. It's great now. Do you have any other tips. I should keep in mind to tips for you one one is you know sometimes with small amount of ingredients as you pointed out the whist doesn't actually hit the bottom of the bowl so slightly unscrew the bowl and hold it up a little bit yeah and do that yeah and if you're butter is too cold. Get a kitchen towel. Put it under hot water. Bring it out and wrap it around the bottom half of the bowl ooh ooh and that'll heat up the butter a little bit and that'll make cream faster yeah. You're going to have fun with that. Stand mixer well. Thank you very much. Okay Take Care Bye hi. This is most radio at the Thanksgiving table. If you wonder why marshmallows go with sweet potatoes. Will you might want to give us a ring. Our number's eight five five four to six nine eight four three. That's eight five four two six nine eight four three or email questions and most state radio DOT COM walk into milk street WHO's calling. This is Jesse Gordon. How are you. Where are you calling from? I'm calling from Jerusalem Israel and I'm fine. How can we help you. I kings me recipes. He's and I've been confused about garlic. Some of them say you should use garlic press or a micro plane or mandolin or something Christmas salt salt and I'm wondering are these just things that recipe writings put him to entertain US different. I love the way that's a great question because I think over the years of advocated nine different preparation methods and you're right. It's just a matter of personal preference or what people are used is to the basic. Rule is the more you mash it. The stronger the flavor as you damage the cells and so the less you mess with the milder the Flavor so oh my two favorite things to do are a smashed peel clove and you put that in the oil and then before you serve you take it out so it just this flavors the oil so just use whole close essentially the other is slicing the cloves and then frying them in oil and those slices are they're also good Sarah. What do you do. I don't use a garlic press anymore. I've rarely minced garlic because I don't want the really really strong flavor. I actually still doom commits it but I started in cold oil and gently heated up because you know he'd also sort of calms down the garlic's bite. A strongest garlic is is raw minced garlic so you know if you cook it. It takes it and the finer it's minced more intense it will be but I liked the garlic flavor but I liked Mello at a bit by starting cold oil which means that you won't Burnett and bring it up well. This interesting isn't it. You know I was learning to cook back in a eighteen twenty S. I used to minced garlic and put it in hot oil. Yeah we all did and you know after thirty seconds it burned was started to burn so I think cold hold oil for onions too early yeah that makes sense start on using coal oil and then very gently cooked them and therefore you don't have to watch the POD and you you don't get burning. You'll see what do you do. You do what you just advice and the other thing is for a cold roasted. Garlic like is really wonderful and it's very mellow and sort of buttery hero. There's been a different flavor tastes differently rose yes of course it's more mellow. It's sweeter leader. Garlic gets sweet just like onions do if they're cooked low and slow the other thing about garlic. That sort of fun is at this restaurant. I used to work at we would take. The roasted garlic closed close and use them to thicken the sauce. Throw it into a blender so that stuff the roasted in the oven. We'd squeeze into a blender with some of the sauce that we hadn't thickened you you know so it just be like stock and flavorings whatever that you've cooked meat in and then you throw it into blender period and the garlic with thicket and you can also take garlic a whole head removed the loose papery outside cut the top quarter off and throw that into Super Stu Cook it for an hour or two and then when you're finished with the skin you have the paper stuffs off but the Skins on oh take it out with tongs and then squeeze it back into the Super Stu yes and so you get the inner meet of the garlic which is very soft and mellow and Sarah just mentioned using that for us but you can also use it to flavor soup and stew right. It's good trick right yeah. That's a really good trick. We use that a lot well. Thanks for calling thank you. Thank you bye bye. I I'm Christopher Kimball and you're listening to milk street radio up next we chat with journalist. David stroup about the Academy Awards of Water and also the future of this precious resource. That's coming up in just a moment this radio. I'm your host Christopher Kimball. When journalists Dave stroup visited the Berkeley Springs international water tasting competition he ended up being a judge and he tasted seventy eight different waters including municipal bottled purified bottled carbonated and bottled sparkling the the question soon became. How do you judge beverage that is in its ideal form tasteless. Dave welcome to milk street glad to be here Chris. I was a kid. I I remember the first bottles of water showing up the supermarket and I thought that's a stupid idea. Ben Wrong about many things we're talking about an industry that might be almost three hundred billion dollars by twenty twenty so let's let's jump into this industry. You went to the Academy Awards of water. What is it where is it held and what happens so it's an annual water tasting competition in Berkeley Springs West Virginia. It's a cute kind of quaint little town probably about little over an hour's drive from Washington. DC and then the you know there's the in Berkeley Springs which is where the event is hosted. Its right next to you. The warm spring in the town where also George Washington was rumored to have bathed when he visited Berkeley Springs. It's they call it. The world's world's longest running and largest water tasting competition water bottlers municipal waters all sorts of people send in their water to be judged just by a panel of judges that do a blind tasting and then they award medals for the water. It's quite like a like a wine tasting but for water. There's usually over one hundred entrance every year and it's been going since the nineteen eighties so. Y- you've been there twice once as an observer once as a judge Y why did you I go down there. Well you know I I heard about it from a friend of mine. Who mentioned there's this crazy thing that happens every year in West Virginia and and you know the idea just on its face sounded so absurd that I wanted to check it out and wanted to see what exactly that means is. It is goofy as it sounds owns. So how many different waters does one judge have to taste in the course of this over seventy. I know in wine tastings their protocols the things you're supposed to do and not do what are the rules of tasting water. I assume just like wine. There must be some some system. Yes there is there. There is a system. The waters are presented in identical stemmed glasses. There served at room temperature which told enhances the taste. You're you're not supposed to eat or drink anything within thirty minutes of doing the tasting you're not supposed to wear perfume or smoke cigarettes ahead of time and and you are allowed to reach for some water crackers sort of as a pallet cleanser in between waters which also has the added benefit. I was told to kind of replenish the sodium sodium in your mouth because when you're drinking so many different waters your mouth can actually interestingly enough start to feel dry in wine tastings depending on what you're tasting. You're looking for a variety of specific things. Are you looking for an absence of flavor and water. Are you looking for a mineralogy or it depends on what what category of water you're tasting. Wh What are you trying to find I would say it's extraordinarily difficult to judge waters on taste and we we're given some instructions ahead of time that you are kind of looking for the absence of things you're looking for the absence of any sort of off pudding taste which is left kind of L. defined a sort of you'll know it when you taste it so I think yeah the the best of the water's at least that would score the highest per the rubric we were given what would be the ones that have kind of an unremarkable flavor so some of these. I I noticed the Frequency H. Two O. from Australia. There's a a little bit hyper described by its manufacturer as a synthesis of wisdom in evolution alive with a pulse of the university. Excuse me put through a two stage. Kinetic energy process infused with the frequency of love. I mean really there is a a nonsense factor actor to some of this right. Yes absolutely I mean I. I read that same description and I can't tell you what half of that means and the other her half. I'm sure means nothing in this was a blind tasting so I did taste that water through the course of the day I don't know if it was one of the ones that I scored high or not but certainly I was not sipping water and and and as a swirled it in my mouth could tell that it was vibrating at the frequency of love as hard as I tried to to determine that I was unable. I don't quite know what the frequency of love is but anyway so. Let's step back why this interest. Is there a bigger picture here about drinking water because in many places let's say in West Virginia and other things there is no drinking water is is that part of the story right here. Yeah I mean what stuck out to me was just this contrast between water is a luxury good. Water is something that can cost you know one hundred and eighty dollars dollars a bottle versus. These towns not that far from Berkley Spring Way Way Way Way Way Way Way stop you. Did you say one hundred and eighty dollars a bottle. Yes yes it for seven hundred and fifty milliliters of water hundred hundred dollars. What brands is that. I believe that was either. The the glacier water from melting wanting icebergs or it could have been the the water that was infused with love. Those were both I think to the most expensive bottles at Berkeley Springs. I am in the wrong business. So Oh so drinking water in that part of the world is a problem right. Yeah there you know there's all these towns throughout the West Virginia and other states that have I've had especially the collapse of coal mining you know where you know a coal mine provided everything for a town the mind then shuts down and all of the utilities ladies that were operated by this mind company begin to deteriorate and shut down and their dozens of these towns in West Virginia that still have people living there but have no water utility and there's no one maintaining the water utility and then you have towns that have to drink bottled water because they have no municipal water so the a coal mine shuts down a lot of the population leaves to find work and there just aren't enough. There's not enough infrastructure and people they're left to continue things like municipal municipal water correct to invest in the infrastructure to bring them into some sort of water system especially because they are often rather remote locations the cost would be would be extraordinary and in the state. Unfortunately you know isn't investing in that in in in probably won't so what's the long term outlook. The long-term outlook is that bottled OUGHTA water will be supplying an ever increasing percentage of our drinking water over the next hundred years well. Unfortunately I think the outlook is is probably a bit more dire for them that from the research that I've seen there's concern that there will be a lot of people who simply will not have access to water men that may mean you know cities having to relocate things of that nature especially with climate change you know there was a presenter at Berkeley Springs who want talked about how by twenty twenty one hundred or something thing there might be nations fighting wars over water now. I don't take a view that maybe that dire but it's hard to say that it could be sustainable for towns to exist on bottled water now but when you say one of the speakers said by twenty one hundred countries might go to war over water that's because they're just is is not enough off ground water to supply the population yes it. We're talking about especially with the effects of climate change areas that that would have you know rain for example bowl. You know the climate has changed. The weather has changed the existing groundwater is maybe harder and harder to find or more expensive to find or places that had had water coming in from MHM somewhere else as the supply begins to dwindled It's harder to get water to those areas so so you now are more educated consumer that comes to to water yeah and I've learned you look at it giants like Nestle and and the controversy that has arisen in some places where they're they're pumping spring water to be bottled and then to be sold and then often to be given in some cases you know as emergency relief to people who don't have tap water and it really does make you think about about where all all this comes from in that it's not it's not free. It's not you know it is a a limited resource. Wh wh where did the big manufacturers like coke and Pepsi these the big distributors. Where do they get their water. Did they get it from municipal supplies. They get it from an actual spring. Where do they get it from. It's usually a combination of both but they do get a lot of water from municipal water. The labels will say where the sources so I don't I have I got a promise so a big big distributor of water brand goes into you know Hartford Connecticut or whatever and says okay. We're we're going to suck up. You Know Oh so much water and pay the water bill that that concept just seems so alien to me that you're not starting with a high quality source of water here starting with something something that's been processed through municipal water supply and putting in a plastic bottle and charging fair amount of money for it. Yes yes. It's it's a matter you know in that case. It comes down pretty much to convenience the world strange place so so what about you say oh I live in Washington. DC just drink water out of the TAP. How do you know that waters okay. There are some reports that you can access the EPA does put out some you you know reports on on water systems and their quality but in the vast majority of places in America. Thankfully you know there. There is is safe drinking water but there are just far too many places You don't have to look too far in the headlines. Flint still has issues with access to water in even in Washington. DC FOR EXAMPLE WE'VE had problems in the past with lead in the water often due to decaying infrastructure. Are you going back next year to their tasting. I would like to go back. It's a very interesting event. I don't think I would ever want to drink seventy two hours three hours again but it it is it is something to see especially at the end they have this thing called the water rush where they build this elaborate display out of all the bottled water that wasn't used up in tasting you know usually places will send a couple of cases of water and they create this kind of fancy display in the middle of the floor in the ballroom and then at the end of the night after the winners or read they invite the audience to come and demolish the display and take with them however many bottles of water they can gather in their arms and you'll see families with young children rushing towards this display loading up canvas bags with with water and dragging them out to their cars. Some people bring suitcases and fill. Oh them with bottled water. It's I wouldn't call it that fun. It was more a little kind of a little dark. Actually watching people not really fight each other but compete for these bottles of water well. At least nothing got thrown out. If I were you next year I'd step up to a hard cider tastier coffee tasting pinger champagne tasting. I mean there are other kinds of tastings yes when I walked away from that. I said I don't ever WANNA. Drink another glass of water. Dave thank you so much. It's been a pleasure having you on milk street thank you it's wonderful to be here. That was writer. Dave stroup article Michael published Anita's entitled the Gulf War inside the world's largest water tasting competition as a kid in Vermont. When I was hang being the field down by the Batten Kill River Charlie Bentley he's the local farmer would walk me over to a fresh spring that trickled down a small rock embankment and we took turns drink and the water was cold pure and had the faint taste of firm. When there wasn't a spring nearby we've wanted Chuck coldwater meant and stuck it in a nearby stream to keep it cool doc jump into the Green River and really hot days. The water was so cold you couldn't think with all you can do to fight the current hanging onto. Moss covered rocks six water. We drank it bathe in it gained on and then when fishing it was free pure and ours the take now you buy a bottle. Charlie Bentley used to say ain't that something right now heading into the kitchen and milk folks read the chat with Lynn Clark about this recipe coconut Rice Pudding Lynn. How are you? I'm great Chris. I love rice pudding. I'm not afraid to say that radio mm-hmm there's baked or stove top milk half and half cream water different kinds of rice different kinds of flavorings. I'm at the point where I'm looking for something. Little more adult adult not too much not too sweet. I don't WanNa be overly mushy. Texture like real pudding and so we looked to southwest India to find a style that we actually really like we did so. This is an area called Carolina. It's on the coast of India little bit tropical there so there's a lot of coconuts there and they. I use coconut milk in their pudding. This sounds really nice flavor but it also is slightly less sweet than some of the other rice puddings you might find in India some use jaggery which is in unrefined brown sugar very very sweet some use date molasses and then there are some that use less sugar like Orange Orange Blossom rosewater flavors. We were trying to get something that was kind of in the middle there but it's not just coconut milk. We use a lot of water to so. It isn't overwhelmingly coconut. That's right we use both and you want to make sure that you're using full-fat coconut milk. You're not the light stuff you might find at the supermarket. That will make this whole mixture much too watery. Sorry so just a Bosma rice which is typical there. That's what you would use typically in India but we found that we preferred in our Borio Rice here. Sometimes rice pudding can be a little bit more she. We're trying to avoid that the boreal Rice's really dense so it really holds up well when we put this in the oven so it's a rice pudding with the emphasis on the rice exactly so this goes in the oven bakes. Do you finish it with something or all. The flavors go in the beginning. Some of the flavor is gonNA. Go right into the pot so we stirred together the sugar the salt and we add some cardamom and that's GonNa give some of those floral notes than we combine the coconut milk in the water in the Dutch oven. Kevin bring that to a boil add in the rice the sugar and a little bit of Orange Zest again that floral flavor that we're going for and then we bake it in the oven for about fifteen eighteen minutes and then it comes out and how do we finish so it comes out of the oven we finish it with a little bit of Vanilla. We do that at the end because we don't want to lose that flavor during that fifty minutes of cooking meantime you can serve this warm and sprinkle it with some pistachios and a little bit more of that ground cardamom so although I'm not grownup residents I saw were kind of grown up rice pudding with some interesting flavors but not too sweet exactly. It's a kind of perfect grownup pudding in thank you very much. You're welcome Chris. You can find this recipe and all of our recipes at one seven seven milk street dot com and this is mostly radio. I'm Christopher Kimball coming up in Pacman. I take a good hard look at food emojis. We'll be right back. I'm Christopher Kimball. You're listening to milk street radio up next molten. I will be answering a few more of your cooking questions. Welcome to st WHO's calling hi. This is tracy from Phoenix CENEX. How can we help you and our household. We use a lot of bone in skin on chicken thighs. I train them of excess getting fat and put the trimmings in the freezer hoping that someday I can figure out how to make Schmaltz and so my questions are can I make Schmaltz with ease he's and if so how what is the best way to store Schmaltz and what are some uses for Schmaltz. I know you touched on this fairly recently in another call but I thought I would develop the topic a little more. Do you want to say which Malta's Schmaltz is just fat so in this case you can check fat the frozen thousand skins and fat chopped up into pieces. Put it in a skillet or medium size pant with a little bit of water is you don't want it to Brown and then cook it very low low and slow for an hour or two until it's fully melted and then you can freeze it in ice cube trays or however you want to do it and just use it as you would. Let's say olive oil or butter and it's easy to do the key is not the Brown darnold. That's interesting. I sort of beg to differ because if you want those Yummy crispy rebus which are the skin crispy crackling. S- cracklins chicken crackling you cook it really low and slow until the skin is crispy be so the skin will get Golden Brown. I would recommend doing that. You don't want Flav dark. Well no not Dr Schwartz but light Golden Brown is fine. Sometimes people add some saute onions cook it in the Schmaltz to add some extra flavor when I did leave. Florida used to do that all the time. I use almost one par water to parts fat. I was my formula. I just covered. I don't even measure because you eventually simmer off all the water. I would say that I believe Schmaltz has lower smoke point point than most other fat so that's one thing to keep in mind. You know maybe seriou stake in it is not the best idea but I would freeze it also the way you just suggested or keep it in the fridge probably keep for a week or two. It's so easy to do but you feel so good making your own. Schmoldt Yummy yeah then you can use the chicken cracklins like in a salad like croutons or something or on top of a simpler Stu Crisp topic until this right now but Sarah's smiling. I'm getting hungry just thinking about it or tossing it with Pasta. You know like breadcrumbs it would be so yummy well wonderful. Sarah and Chris. Thank you so much for the call or pleasure thank you and I welcome to milk street. WHO's calling hi. This is Paul. Hey Paul. Where are you calling from. I'm calling from Sunnyvale California. So how can we help you so I have a strange issue. I made a country Apple Goulette and just simple ingredients apples lemon juice a little bit of butter and then effort was cooked. I glazed it with a low sugar April Jim after a couple of days of eating it. I put it in the refrigerator. I had wrapped in Tinfoil to keep it warm until we had our first serving. I just left it in tin. Foil about for three or four days into their fifth grader. I noticed that the thick aluminum foil had thousands and of pin holes in it but I didn't realize was April jam being direct contact with aluminum foil would have have this reaction and I just don't understand it. It's not acidic. Now you mentioned it. I have had that exact thing happened and this this is with a chart. I put on a cardboard round. Not on a metal pan with aluminum foil on the top in wasn't really asked I will. I guess a fruit. Jim Does have some acidity in it. It's free jam has some acidity some acidity. You said you tossed the apples with lemon juice so no more than about half of eleven yeah but even so there could be. I do know that aluminum reacts with acid and there must have been enough acid hair if you have a fruit pie and there is no custard or cream or anything in it. Don't put it in the fridge. Don't cover it. Leave it around it because you know you're going to create a moist environment with it being being covered in the fridge and the crisis going to get soggy and I just would say next time covered with plastic and if you need to cover it at all if you're worried about the bugs getting adding to it because you've got that apricot jam on there which is sort of like a seal and leave it out. Don't put it in the fridge so there's four really fat mice sitting were you. If you're worried about I I wouldn't not use aluminum foil. I just think make sure you don't use it near anything. That's remotely had this many many times when covering desserts and I've seen it gets discolored on the inside. It's really nasty so I just use plastic wrap and I agree with you. I don't refrigerated desert analysts cuts custard or cream filling and I also put it in a on a cardboard around and get it out of metal which also helps because sometimes the metal flavor seems to get into the desert. I hear you do you have any thoughts as to why no. I don't have any sauce. Actually the apricot jam goes on top so any lemon juice would have been buried by the apricot jam and it was a healthy amount onder so there's asset was the one that was in contact with the aluminum is acid. Maybe maybe Mary's acid in crazy thing yeah. Maybe sugar reacts with Aluminum Salt. Does yeah so maybe sugar I do know. It's happened in many times. That's why I stopped using excellent very good. Thank you guys for doing a great job on TV. An entire family watches folks your show that they're really excellent. Thank you take care. I'm Christopher Kimball. You're listening to milk street radio now. It's time for some culinary inspiration from one of our listeners. Hi My name is Tan Summers. My daughter-in-law Joanne showed me how to Cook eggplant so that it doesn't turn into mash cut the eggplant into one inch rounds rush with olive oil and sprinkle with a little salt then roast in the oven at four headed degrees for about one half hour. The eggplant should get dark and caramelized almost burned that may brown faster in the bottom depending on your pan once cooked the eggplant can be cut into chunks and added to other ingredients. You've cooked normal way for dishes. Such as bank on Bartha were just stir in the planet could yet another five to ten minutes so the eggplant soaks up the flavor. If you'd like to share your own culinary hacker secret ingredient extreme radio please go to one seven seven milk street three dot com slash radio tips one more time one seven seven milk street dot com slash radio tips. ooh Nextel puts the unpredictable on censored Dan Passionate Dan. How are you feeling Pretty Jovial. Today you and I don't text were much Chris when I big texting buddies but I imagine that when you text your the kind of person he who uses a lot like us the letter R. Instead of are in the letter you instead of why why ou and you use a lot of emojis like very silly yeah terminology is is that about right when I text and my wife points this out. I text one word. Yes thank okay got it. I'm not a big no. I'm not an expansive Texter when I texted my kids occasionally. I use an Emoji or what are some of your favorite Goto. emojis birthday hat had cake. one of my kids is really into animals for career so there's plenty of those are obviously if I'm making something for dinner with talking to my kids that comes into play. They have plenty of fish and other things so right right. Have you ever used the pizza. Emoji never really well. There's there's a bit of a pizza emoji controversy brewing on the Internet that I would love to get your take on okay you. You may not have noticed this. Don't use it but the pizza EMOJI has pepperoni Oni on it. It's a slice of pizza with pepperoni on it right. What do you think of that. The controversy is not obvious to you No. It's not well first of all. Do you know how emojis come to be Chris. No I don't actually they don't just appear if you if you think that there should be an Emoji in the world you have to you make an application to the unit code consortium and you have to show them that it's in use and you have to explain that it's going to be compatible and there's a demand Dan for that. It'll be used and every year they add a certain number of emojis and so there's a process at once they added their certain guidelines that all the different companies have to abide by their depiction of this Emoji and so it is a pretty regimented pretty official process and the issue is that when they say that the Pizza Emoji has I said pepperoni on it it becomes the definitional representation of that food for the entire world and some people are upset about the idea of Pepperoni pizza possibly doubly becoming the default pizza. If it is the representation of pizza in Emoji Form Chi Chi does point out that if one word to he's still read a newspaper which most people don't do the notion of whether Pepperoni is the ideal form of pizza would not be on the front page or anywhere in the front section as being something worthy of real consideration. We do have a few other issues to deal with before we get to this one perhaps but people worked up about it. Chris so one argument is the pepperoni pizzas a problem because it's created the ride about pizza but the contrary argument is that emojis are very small and without the PEPPERONI DOTS on there. It's hard to each other a slice of pizza. When it's small it looks like a triangle of cheese and so the pepperoni distinguishes it probably a real neopolitan pizza you know little basil melted Mozzarella tomato sauce. That's probably fairly identifiable. I agree so is that the camp that your aunt tell the folks in the red at message forums the Chris Kimball has taken a stand. Thanks a lot pal. Is this about okay. There are two issues is pepperoni pizza. The ideal form of that particular food group or is pepperoni pizza not sufficiently inclusive because many people don't Wanna eat meat on their Pete's or because just it's. It's not the original. Oh that's fair. Actually I think I agree. The PEPPERONI. Pizza should not be representative of pizza as a category all all right. I'll send a note to the message forms. They're going to be very happy Chris. You may find a few of them outside your house when you wake up in the morning but and they will be happy to see you and they may. I point out Mr Cashman. You have not come down one side of the other since you brought this up. I think it's incumbent on you to have an opinion. You got me Chris. That's fair. You know I'm torn learned because I agree with you that I'm troubled by the idea of pepperoni pizza becoming the default type of pizza because as much as I love pepperoni Johny Pizza it should not be the default but I'm also very concerned with sort of communication and practicality and the idea of the emoji being difficult to decipher without Perroni concerns me because I feel like an emojis job is to communicate something specific and you know Chris when an Emoji is not clear it becomes misinterpreted you know and and we don't need to talk at length about what happens when the Peach Eggplant Emoji get together but those emojis emojis have been miss or reinterpreted by modern culture and that's fine. I'm judging that but if I was a teacher and eggplant enthusiasts I might be upset and I don't know what how the pizza could be misinterpreted but the pepperoni makes it pretty clear Dan Passion on the Pizza Emoji. Should it contain pepperoni or not thank you. Dan Thanks Chris that was Dan Passion of the sport. Dan Pattern brought up emojis and so I wondered about their true meaning some of course have hidden meanings such as the octopus which means cuddly is it because of all those arms they manicure. Emoji means that you're not bothered by what was said about you. The croissant oddly enough indicates that you're anti Brexit but the PEPPERONI PIZZA MoD goal is the real surprise it means I love you. I guess that nothing says love like a slice of pizza. That's it for this. We show if you tune into later. When a binge lists in every single episode you can download no street radio on your favorite PODCAST CAST APP to learn more about street. Please go to one seven seven mill street dot com there. You can find our recipes. Watch the new season of our television show or order latest ages cookbook the millstream cookbook back next week with more food stories and thanks so much for listening Sir Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is produced by Milk Street in association with W. G. B. H. Executive Producer Melissa Dino Senior Audio Editor Melissa Allison Producer Anne sensabaugh associate producer Jackie Nolaac Production Assistant Stephanie Cone and Production Help From W. Paddock senior audio engineer Douglas sugar additional editing from Vicky Merrick Sydney Lewis and Haley faker and audio mixing from Jay Allison awesome at Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts be music by Chubu crew additional music by George Brendel egg loft. Christopher Kimble's milk look street radio is distributed by P art

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I Cooked for Stevie Wonder: Makini Howell Redefines Vegan

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

51:16 min | 10 months ago

I Cooked for Stevie Wonder: Makini Howell Redefines Vegan

"No the modern kitchen is nothing like when I grew up with the choices of fixtures sink sliding and major appliances are well overwhelming and. That's why whether you're planning your dream kitchen or building your dream Home Ferguson. Bath kitchen enlightening gallery can help start browsing the online inspiration. Gallery on Ferguson. Showrooms Dot Com and then request an appointment with your local product expert and they work with designers builders and other trade professionals to meet your specifications while exceeding your expectations. Visit FERGUSON SHOWROOMS DOT COM today to request your appointment. Hi this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading. This week's podcast. You can go to our website. One seven seven Milk Street Dot Com for recipes culinary ideas around the world and our latest cookbooks. Now here's this week's show. This is most radio from PX. I'm your host. Christopher Kimball the two thousand fifteen chef mckinney. Howell took a sabbatical from Vegan Food Empire to cook for Stevie wonder on tour today. We discuss her unique take on beacon cooking and what she learned during her year on the road. Oh I learned how to cook. I learned how to be a really good cook. I was chef when I left here and I was a little bit fancy but after I left that tour. I could teach you how to be Vegan for the rest of your life. If that's what you want to having all of the good things of life also coming up Gopnik and I discuss food and literature and we learned Croatias secret to perfect cabbage rolls. But I it's my interview with historian and writer. Naughty Bernstein Nadia welcome to mostly thank you so much for having me. Chris. We're talking about one of my favorite topics. Which is the food industry in America? Going back to the beginning of synthetic flavors in the nineteenth century. So let's get into the weird history. Kastoria him I don't know if I pronounced that proper but I read that I always fell off my chair. So this comes from a beaver and beavers were hunted. I thought because the beaver hats but I guess for this what is Kastoria. Where does it come from? And how is he is? Okay so let me tell you about how I found out about this ingredient when I first started writing about and talking about the history of of artificial flavors. I'd sometimes get this weird question from somebody. In the audience somebody raised their hand. And say is fake vanilla actually beaver but and and the first time. I heard it. I was a little taken aback. I was like No but I looked into it a bit and the thing. That's being called beaver. But is an ingredient called CA- story him. That isn't actually derived from the beaver anal gland but from gland next to the anal gland so near but but not quite but and important distinction. We might be important to sanction and beavers. Use It to To mark their territory and for other beaver ish things But it has long been an important ingredient in perfumery as other animal. Musk's have been and there's a lot of overlap between perfumery and flavors so historically it's very expensive ingredient you know once I figured this out this part of the perfume part of the story. I started answering. The question of is faithful reliever but with no beaver but is way too expensive to be used in fake vanilla by then. Was it used for a while for that? Well I started looking a little bit deeper into the history of vanilla flavors especially before the pure food and drug act and I saw that sometimes. Musk would be listed as an ingredient. Not specifically beaver. Musk musk a small amount. And then I started talking to flavor US especially older flavors about this and one flavor is told me He had trained at one of the big flavor. Houses in the nineteen seventy s flavor by the crafts people really who who build the artificial flavors or the natural flavors The flavor additives in foods and beverages. He was a novice and the flavors who he was training under made him prepare. Kastoria extract as part of one of the routine tasks of learning how to do it and so he got kind of this tray of Beaver glandular sacs and he had to turn them into an extract. This is what they do. The New Guy Right now your first day he. Here's here's some beaver sacks we want you to extract the the compound his his the master flavors training him said I. Had you do that to see if you had the heart of a flavor rest? So when it was used in flavors which was rarely it was used in really small quantities just kind of to add a certain nuance maybe to the very best vanilla flavorings certain Genet Sekwa. Yeah so I think it was also used some terms in raspberry flavorings But what I found was that in the eighties. It's it almost stopped being used entirely. In fact I couldn't find anybody who had any memory of ever using it who worked in the industry for the reason that in the eighties. A bunch of the big food and beverage companies started striving to make their products. Kosher is not kosher many things but it not kosher okay. So let's fast forward to today's world where artificial is a real problem for a lot of food manufacturers? You mentioned That trick. Cereal tried to switch to natural colors and ditch the high fructose corn Syrup and that really didn't work out too well for them. They got really dull colors. So what is the industry doing now that they've created you know three or four thousand artificial flavors and colors and now a lot of consumers want products. That don't have them. It really depends on the on the case anybody. Who's gone to a supermarket within the past? Five years has almost certainly notice that all kinds of familiar brands now are proclaiming. Nothing heard official rate no artificial flavors even things where it just seems so ridiculous like natural cheetos right. So what are all natural cheetos? What does that mean well? I can't really answer that. In fact nobody can natural flavors are defined right? If you look on an ingredient list and you see an item that says natural. Flavors there's actually you can go to the code of federal regulations and you can read what that means. It means fruits leaves skins seeds from natural. Yes exactly and artificial. Is Everything else? But there's a lot of ingredients that kind of straddle the line or ways of processing that kind of straddle the line a major class action court case recently In the past ten or so years has been about orange juice. Tropicana orange juice. It's is it a one hundred percent juice. Well it is but it's actually juice that's been re combined with flavor packs right of so basically. It's been everything in it comes from orange juice but it's been processed to a degree that some consumers claim that it no longer counts as a natural product. So so the the conundrum here is what is natural because as you said it may all be derived from a plant or from a fruit. But there's a lot of processing going on so it may be natural but it's heavily processed. The second thing is if a Cheeto is natural doesn't mean it's good for you know it's still a cheeto which probably is not very good for you so there's a lot of complexity here in terms of if the consumer wants to eat foods that are good for them just because it's natural is no guarantee that's good for you right right absolutely while the definition of natural is still sort of up in the air it carries so much cultural meaning we associate it with the kinds of images that you see on the front of packages of foods that call themselves natural right pastoral groves and this kind of harmlessness and this kind of good for you ness right you you. Can you feel safe assuming that something natural is good for you and also good for the planet and I think that when you look at the way that the kind of environmental cost for instance of relying on an all natural food chain or things that kind of reasonably fall into what we consider natural that costs might be much higher than using processing technologies are ingredients that we might consider synthetic so? There's always a kind of balance here now. Do you thank you so much for being on Milk Street I. I don't know how you feel about artificial but I know more about it. Thank you so much thank you. This is really fun. That was not a steam cheese currently working in book based on her dissertation recounting the history of flavors science and the flavor industry. Now My co-host ceremony. I will be taking a few of your culinary questions. Sarah is of course the author of Home Cooking WanNa one also star Sara's weeknight meals on public television Sarah before you over the phone lines. Here's my question. You're a French cook or trained French. All the mothers sauces. You'll learn right in cooking school and in restaurants do us any of those anymore or or any adaptation of those. Well I absolutely make their nays all the time. That's a you know a take off on holidays. That's not a mother sauce. But it's a variation of a mother and I also make mayonnaise. I like those two very much. I guess that's about it. I make Marinara but that's not the mother's sauce Italian. I think I knew the answer that but now stand. Take some calls. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling hi this is Samantha from Sacramento. How are you good? How are you doing? I'm doing great? How can we help you? Okay well I love to sour dough and Davor gave me a salary that was telling that over thirty years old. It makes good pancakes. It's just not that funky. I'm pretty disciplined. I'm wondering if these are safe. Way To make a Salad Steiner funkier the first thing which are not gonna WanNa hear is. Maybe you shouldn't use that sour dough starter all sour dough starters different right so they all have different flavors so you just happen to have one that maybe he's not funky enough for you so you could start all over again. There are a few things we've learned though which does make Sour dough funkier. Different flowers like whole grains flowers whole-wheat awry will give you more flavor because of the complex carbohydrates in them. If you don't feed your sour dough as often it makes it a little more sick and a little funkier is like you know you have a dog that needs to lose weight feed them as much and also the liquid rises to the top with a starter is really sour. So if you really WanNa make the starter more sour. Mix that right back in the only thing. That's typical of bread. Baking is the slower the ferment more flavors developed so and I make pizza dough for example. It'll sit in the fridge for three days. Then I'll take it out and let a warm up for a couple of hours when you take out part of that sour dough the starter and you make a new recipe when you make the new recipe if you give it three days or two days in the fridge then take it out and let it finish rising that long period of slow fermenting. Slow fermenting is a way of building flavor. So those are a few things but ultimately you could just go by star and you might like the Flavor and Sarah's I'm completely out of my league here I have to be honest. I've never made sour dough bread. I don't know all the INS and outs well another place. You know one other suggestion I make is I said. Some people were down from King. Arthur flower in Vermont. They have hotlines there with people who actually know. A lot about yeah. They're fantastic so I would also call them but that's a different starter. Would be the first thing I would do. Just to see if you like it. But the long ferment and using some more complex flowers like oh we ride cetera. That will add a lot of flavor. Yeah perfect make sure. It's not been sitting there at room temperature for months though. Right FLOWER FLOWER. Do go bad. Go off pretty granted. Yeah so you WANNA make sure. It's okay okay. That's good to know so I was wrong in assuming that since the starter is so old that it would be funky. I could get a new one. That's funkier possibly well. Sara does our like people will have a personality so it just depends on the starter yet. Try New one all right Samantha. Okay for pleasure. That's an honor to talk to you. Vote by walking street. Who's calling my name is Jill. Hi Jill where you calling from? I'm calling from Crown Point Indiana which is near Chicago. Thanks for taking my call pleasure. How can we help you? My question concerns the quality of sugars. You and Sarah Talk frequently about the quality of spices and definitely the quality of a flowers but nobody ever really talks about sugar and when you go into store. The price of the sugar from the local vendors usually half the price from what you would call. I don't know the quality vendor which in this in the Midwest is going to be domino. Is there really a difference? That's an excellent question. I remember when I got started in the nineteen seventies. It was a big controversy about beet. Sugar versus cane sugar and so. I bought sugar cane sugar and couldn't tell the difference in banking then. I started using palm sugar and coconut sugar and sort of unrefined sugar like at whole foods for example they don't sell domino. They sell something that's less refined and I use that all the time in baking by weight And I find there's no difference in my baking so the short answer is if you're talking about white process sugar. I don't think you're gonNA find a difference in your baking however for flavor reasons. Coconut sugar other kinds of sugar. Palm sugar those. Add a lot of flavor and they're nice substitute for light and dark brown sugar for example. But I don't believe and I know there's some studies have been done on this that the brand white sugar matters and baking right. I don't think one is more hygroscopic. That is it a attracts liquid. More than another. I think it's pretty much the same. Yeah I think what is pretty true is domino is cane sugar and most of the rest of the stuff is beat. I haven't noticed any difference myself. I'm pretty sure that most bakers do not care. I'm not the kind of Baker who's going to make you know the whip's on top of things. I just baked bread and cookies. And the occasional cake and brownies and things and you know you go out of your way to buy the good stuff and I just stared at the two kinds of sugar and just wondered Does this make a difference? So let me ask the question. You intrigue me with this coconut and palm sugar when you say it's got more flavor and it can for light or dark. Sugar have fewer calories of sugar. I'm diabetic so this is the difference. My can answer that question. I would doubt has less. Okay I use it my coffee. For example I just has a lot more flavor. It's very dark brown. It tends to be a little finer. I don't know what the Calorie Count is. Okay thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it. Thanks for calling thank you bye bye bye bye. This is most of your radio if you have a question and give us a call anytime eight five five four two six nine eight four three eight five five four two six nine eight four three or email us at questions at Milk Street radio DOT COM welcome mill street. Who's calling this is deb From Wilburton -Chusetts. How can we help you? My mother's British. When I was a child we would wait for the Christmas package to come from our Nan. And it always had one of those green cans of Lyle's Golden Syrup which endured we would put it on oatmeal and sometimes my mom would make a golden pudding which is basically you know steamed cake with pool of Golden Syrup at the bottom which we all loved so now we can find goldens here pretty easily and I like to substitute it for Corn Syrup. Different recipes like the millionaire's shortbread which type of making long before I knew it was called millionaire's shortbread Caramel corn. And things like that. So I'm wondering if there's anything. I should be aware of when substituting that in terms of the temperature of the Syrup or it's liquid base or anything like that or any other suggestions for it. We have substituted that Golden Syrup for Corn Syrup A number of things like caramel and stuff that are a little dicey but it worked out fine. The one product. I've used here steen's cane syrup which comes in a yellow can which I think is probably closer to Golden Syrup. Yeah I'm not a fan of Corn Syrup. I don't think it has much flavor. I think you're way ahead of the game by using Golden Syrup. We don't know of any situation where like even making marshmallows. It would make a difference right sir. Well all I would say is that. Because Corn Syrup is made from corn. And lyles is made from sugarcane. And I think it's a little darker in color and the little more has more flavor than Corn Syrup. Really doesn't have any. It's more of sort of molasses butterscotch flavour. Because it's a little darker sometimes. It might be hard to tell whether something is done because it's going to be darker anyway because of the lyles that's in there. I'd say that'd be the only problem that I see no problem. As a matter of fact I'd rather us. Sales Steen's cane syrup is probably the same thing I've ever worked with Steen's instead from the south. Yeah I've heard online. I think your way out of the game. Yeah Yeah. I don't think there's a problem I don't either. It certainly did the right flavor profile that we really love. And Yeah I love butterscotch okay. Well that seems a reasonable then. Don't look at any changes. Thank you very much to worry if I if you're listening to the radio. Next we hear from chef mckinney Howell about cooking and her year on the road with Stevie wonder that in more in just a moment this is mostly radio. I'm your host. Christopher Kimball right now. It's my interview with mckean howl. She was raised in a Vegan family. That's been vegan food business. Since the nineteen seventies her seattle-based restaurants and shops include plum Bistro also sugarplum. In two thousand fifteen. She was stevie wonder chef for his songs in the key of Life Tour Bikini. Welcome to milk straight. Thank you for having me. So is a former menswear designer. You obviously think about color and I love this quote about food. You said there's a lot of color in food but you have to look for it. So is part of making. This food appear delicious inviting the color. And how you present it. Well I have a theory on food like music or anything else that you put yourself into doing. I think that mediums like food or representation of the individual and if you look for the brightness and the delicious of life you can find Matt and plants and you can then replicate that on the plate. So you know there's a potato or there's Yemen there's a sweet potato in this purple sweet potato and there's I mean there's so much variety that you just have to look for it and represent it well and I believe that you should do that in anything you do. I was a designer like that. I think that music is like that. I think that when you know when people are truly popular in music their music represents who they truly are and I think when you create food that touches people's soul it really represents who you truly are and what you feel about it whether it's bright or exciting or crave -able or addictive or those are all facets of the individual that is making the thing I think so. Here you are with restaurants and food trucks and you're in the process of opening a dessert place all of a sudden stevie wonder comes to you and says hey. Join me on tour. Was that a tough decision or that was a snap decision but by the time he came in. I had already built quite a good foundation for the business. So it wasn't as trepidation is just trying to open a store and then leaving although it still you know it. The decision did I did have to wait and I only had about three days but I do think that the reward was worth it. You know you you just don't know you have to you gotta try and you gotTa try knowing that you're willing to risk it messing up but I I felt like I should try and I'm so glad that I did so by ten years ago. I actually catered grateful dead concert this obviously after Jerry died and I have to say the experience of the ban was lovely very different than I thought. It's not that glamorous being behind the scenes on tour you find the same thing when you were catering for Stevie wonder that was not my experience. My experience was amazing. First of all his personal chef so I was on a very small team. I was on a team with him and four other men. I was on an all male team I was. The next youngest person was like seventeen years older than me so there were a different. They were a different generation. And they I mean you know Stevie wonder saying Martin Luther King. He Sang on the march on Washington. He saying the happy birthday song he say so he came from a different generation of people. And so back to what I was saying about when you create music how it comes from inside of you everywhere that he sings when every song that you've ever heard is truly him everything that you hear about his love for humanity and how we should be as humans. That's truly him and that's truly how he treats everyone so. It was an eye opening experience in that I got to see America through the eyes of a black American that loves this country that has fought for this country in so many ways for so many years and so when you travel with someone like that that means so much to so many people erases color. It ERASES GENDER. And you see you see what we actually all hope is there. Let's talk about you. You write or talk about. We were too far in. We were Vegan. We were home schooled. So you started out life early deeply embedded in the Vegan philosophy right. Yes and is that something that you ever wavered from or that's just been part of your life so long. That's just a central tentative. How you view food and cooking living. It's been a part of my life so long that it is essential tenant You know it's when you're a kid and you're like when I get grandma and do what I WANNA do. My Mom told me what to do. But then when you get grow do you like. Oh well actually. She had a better idea so what my parents gave me. Was this thing like twenty years ahead of anybody else having it and so now as I am cooking in the world I people don't really know what to do with plants but Baleno Gen Z. Those guys refuse to eat anything that has a face and there's so many of them in there they're looking for something that's good and it's such a support generation no rally behind you. They just want something and so many people are so loss as to how to provide it and so having this thing it would have been I I. I realized a long time ago but I see now. What an advantage. My parents gave me by giving me this. This thing this idea of this plant based Diet in these restaurant concepts and how you can turn this into familiar cultural American food. What do you think about the Burger replacements out there? Do you think that's that's something that's here to stay and is a good idea or not? I don't know how long the meat replacement is going to stay. I do think that it's a good idea because I think that what the Meat Replacement Burger does for people is it gives them some familiar substance. That helps them to step into veganism a little bit easier is an entry point. Yeah it gives them away to understand veganism versus going from. Can you imagine? I don't know if your immediate or not. Can you imagine like enjoying steaks all the time? And then somebody telling you oh no you actually have to be raw for the next however long you're going to go into shock bodies getting shot. You're GONNA really want that steak but if you have you know a variety of things that can help you get where you're going it's going to be easier for you to make that transition and so. I think that all of the things that are exist inside of the plant based world are necessary. Yes I do now. You said I think that Stevie wonder had been Vegan for just a couple years before. You started cooking for him did you. What did you learn about your art cooking for him? Did you know I learned how to Cook? I learned how to be a really good cook. I was a chef when I left here and I was a little bit. Fancy thought ups. Doing I learned how to care for someone. And you learn how to cook when you are on a tour like that. Especially when you're an individual's personal chef so I had to cook breakfast lunch. Dinner snacks beverages and tease. After I left that tour I could teach you how to be Vegan for the rest of your life. If that's what you wanted having all of the good things of life like you know French toast for breakfast or scrambles for breakfast or you know. I did all different types of Tofu's in Satan's in grains and the gums for dinner. And when you have to cook for somebody every day you really understand how to create variety and a satisfying meal every day. It's like having you know. I guess I guess I don't have one yet but I would assume it's like when you have a family and you cook every day you know it's fuel and so it has to taste good in has to feel good has to hit the spot in a pastor has to be all of those things a few recipes you mentioned bacon. Vinaigrette what is Bacon Ish Vinaigrette? Mean it's a smoke. Tofu Bacon So we take Tofu when we smoke and we call it a a bacon and then I make a addressing with vinegar stone ground mustard some fresher jobs. So it's like a smokey. You also mentioned Hillside quickey sandwiches that your mother created those Tofu sandwiches so my mom created the first Tofu. Sandwich in the natural food market here in the northwest When we were little we she home schooled us and we worked in our family business and it was. We had to deliver sandwiches. We were the earthy crunchy. Let's assume you're talking to someone who's not a Vegan or vegetarian but is thinking about in that direction. Do you have a couple of things you could say to people about how you would put together a plant based dinner fairly quickly. Well you know. I think we over think veganism. I think that all of the things that make regular food good also mink plant based food good so you have to make sure that you have enough salt fat acid heat. You have to make sure that you know it's juicy enough it saucy enough and if you know how to Cook Stop Thinking about it as like Oh my God. I have to Cook Vegan food. Just start thinking about what are the elements that you could replace? Say for instance. Something isn't basic spaghetti and meatballs. If you already make a killer sauce you know all you have to do is replace. The meatballs with platinum replaced the cheese with a plant cheese and boom. You gotTa Vegan dish. So don't over think it and don't try to make it too fancy or something that you wouldn't eat like I had this Celery Root Hash and I was like that taste terrible in your regular life. So why would you give that to be as a Vegan okay like? Don't give the Vegan something that you would not eat in your real life. Think about the things that are good to you every day and start to think about the replacements and if you think about it. Most people eat vegan carrot. Most people eat vegan potatoes. Most people you know there are things that I really love about. You is your Vegan with attitude. I mean you go like would I eat this celery root normally no? Why would you not know that in turn are not high my listeners favorite things? They're not high on anybody's list. They don't taste good not to be doubted. The lowly celery root. But you gotta you gotta you puree with like potatoes right and then it's GonNa add some fat and it's it's a nice dish right absolutely. Yeah you gotta get rid of bitter taste but don't just give personal bowl of celery root hatch. Good good for you. You've made it very clear that the rest trump is can be held. It's very tough. Yes gone looking back. What have you learned from? This is this where all these things necessary trials. You just had to get through to become successful at this or maybe you would have taken a different path. So I think when you have a crazy idea to change the world you do have to go through adversity and I and I honestly think that in a few years hopefully will change our opinion on veganism. It'll it'll point. Be Insane that we ever thought that it was not okay to be largely plant based because what are we doing to our planet like we all have to live here together and so. I think that the way that things are occurring to us today about some of our thoughts it will occur to a shortly about how we think about what we eat. Katie what a pleasure having you on mill street Maybe someday we'll sit down and have a meal thank you. I hope so that was mckanie. Howell owner and a chef at several seattle-based restaurants and shops including plum bistro plum chopped and sugar plum in two thousand thirteen. She published a cookbook titled Plum Gratifying Vegan dishes from Seattle's Plum Bistro. Stevie WONDER LIKE COMFORT. Foods while touring which made me wonder what other musicians have stockton their dressings so according to taste of home magazine. Carrie underwood has three types of Justin bieber goes for Bread Deli meats and Swedish fish beyond see loves baked chicken. Well seasoned with garlic. It's Guinness for Will Ferrell. Right Kerry goes for wine and gatorade hopefully not mixed and Lady Gaga asked for non smelly non sweaty cheese plus roast chicken and Guacamole. The last time I was backstage all I got was a cup of tea and an old power bar so maybe I need to take singing. Lists time ahead into the kitchen. Milk Street the chat with J M Hirsch about this week's recipe. Paprika pork stuffed cabbage. Jim How're you doing? Great so this is a story about. Zagreb? I guess because you were just there I was there nineteen seventy-one one little bit before you were born. I was changing trains so I think I had some blood sausage in my backpack. You seem to fare better. You actually had a good meal. So what did we had to look? Because in Croatia meat is not so much food as a full frontal assault. But with little digging I did find Sarma. Which is the Croatian version of a stuffed cabbage leaf? But it's nothing like any cabbage leaf. I've ever had these were tender and Tangy leaves that we're not robbery like I'm used to here and the filling was meaty and rich and had tons of Paprika and it and it also had the same tanks that was on the outside and the cabbage leaf sell. It was a completely different experience of these pickled cabbage leaves Tangy. What does that mean exactly? They're fermented and actually what they do. Is they year long? Fermentation of whole heads of green cabbage. And then they take those leaves they pay them off. They stuffed them in the cook them in a very paprika rich sauce. Incredible so if you go to someone's home there's a big cabbage barrel debasement exactly. And so why is the filling also Tangy so what they do? Is they chop up a little bit of that cabbage mixed in with the rice and the ground pork and then they stopped that and then they use even more of that dyestuff cabbage in the sauce itself. So since we don't pick a whole heads of cabinet we do not know. What was our Goto fixer? Actually it was an easy fix. We take just like they. Do we take the whole head of green cabbage and we simmer it in seasoned water with vinegar and the vinegar does send it gives you that kind of Tangy flavor but it also helps break down the leaves that they're nice and tender when you wrap so this is the classic casserole off the leaves put them in a baking dish in the oven is pretty much. Yeah I mean with a whole lot of sweet pepper Reeker Reuse almost four tablespoons for the whole recipe and we pre cook. The Rice a little bit so that it cooks in the same time as the rest of it and again. The real distinguishing factor. That was those cabbage leaves. Tenderizer them. You give them a really tangy flavor and they are fantastic. Any sauce with us. Yep It's again it's using some the cabbage just like we learned in Croatia with a lot of Paprika and some of the water that we used to cook the rice gets got some Nice starchiest. Dickens up cooks so direct from Zagreb. You had a better culinary experience than fifty years later. Paprika pork stuffed cabbage. Thank you Jim. Thank you. You can get this recipe for Paprika pork stuffed cabbage at milk street. Radio DOT COM. This is most radio coming up Adam. Gopnik reveals J. D. Salinger's recipe for popcorn salt and more favorite foods from our literary heroes. We'll be right back. I'm Christopher Kimball. And you're listening to MILL STREET RADIO UP NEXT SARA Moulton. I will be answering a few more of your cooking questions. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling my name is Kevin Gray. And where are you calling from Kevin? I'm calling from Lagrange Kentucky. How can we help you today? Well I've a question that involves something which would seem rather simple which is hot water. My question is my wife when she is cooking and she's an excellent cook but when she has a recipe that needs hot or warm water especially warm water. What she'll do is use water directly from the TAP. And I have a question about that because I've had the drain hot water heater before and I see all this stuff at the form them all that crunchy stuff so I guess. My question is because you know hot. Water heaters have sacrificial magnesium and odors golfers. Crunchy stuff in them. Just doing this. Get into the food. We noticeably changed the face of the water. Yes well not just that. It's just not as healthy. I mean it sort of depends on your pipes and where you live. And what's going on but Hot Water dissolves contaminants more quickly than cold water. So No. I think you're right and that she should not be using the hot water she should get cold water and then heated up. Chris. You're right the hot water heater. If you've ever drained one and I have a scary is very scary and so you're better off with cold water. We've also done. I've done tests years ago where we were making bread and using bottled water versus tap water. And we could actually tell the difference in some breads that being said if you know once a month us half a cup of warm water. It's not gonNA hurt anybody but in general agree you WANNA use start with water or use bottled water. If it's something where water is going to be important part of the recipe. Yeah or filter water. Yes I always wondered about that and I thought well I'll ask the question of you guys. Actually I have a question for you. My wife is also very good. Cook and the question is how do you get your significant other to change something they do in the kitchen and they actually change getting word that you do have a psychological? He's got an advantage here in that he can ask us and what we say matters to his wife whereas what you say. Your wife doesn't matter at all. That's absolutely time sorry. We have to find a different expert for you. Say No I've got I can say Kevin I call Kevin and he said you should use a walk for this recipe. Not a scam. And she'll say who the heck is I'll just say Kevin's the extra walk expert. Okay okay thanks for that. Okay all right take care bye bye. How do I mean he doesn't Cook Now? I know you're married so you have. Yeah does little fights yeah. He does things that are annoying. So you obviously have to pick your fights but do have a psychological approach the worse. It's very very indirect. Yeah so you know like one of the things he does collect the New York Times and they pile up in pile up in pile up in you know maybe one day. I'll sort of accidentally knocked them over when I walk. I and he'll notice very so you know things like that but you don't do things like someone once told me that leaving piles and newspapers around a fire hazard. No that would not work. Yeah anyway moving on next call. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling hi this is Marilyn. I live in Mesa Arizona. How can we help you? I started making candies and I wanted to use up some leftover Milton chocolate and it had a white is shawn disappeared when melted it but reappears when it cooled and my question is what is it. Is it bad for you? It's cocoa butter crystals which ended up on the surface because the chocolate was stored in too cool or too hot a location. You can just eat it Eric. Garner too hot too hot. And of course. So don't put in the fridge but keep it in a cool dry place you can melted and use it in a Brownie for example or a cake are okay but for dipping for example. That's not gonNA work. Because as the melted chocolate cools the fat structures changed permanently and those crystals are going to reappear. It's fine for baking a cake. Okay it's not poisonous harmful to eat. You could actually sometimes. I have a bar of chocolate and I'm baking and I notice it's white and then I can just eat it. That's good news. Yeah strictly visual that too. So don't worry about the thing. Is You know those beautiful bon-bons you get an a chocolate store where the chocolate seems to snap when you bite into it. That's been tempered this whole process and the thing about chocolate. That's got the blue monitors. It's not bad for you but it's GonNa have that bloom and also it's not going to have that snap that you want. You could get regular chocolate and temperate yourself before you use it to dip into as a matter of fact Jacques Torres. Who's a wonderful chocolatier? He has a method for tempering chocolate in a microwave ruin. Yeah that's really pretty cool so you might have since we're talking about. You Might WanNa just google it and find it and try it sometime yourself to seek since it sounds like you're gonna make chocolate candies again. In which case you're going to want it to be tempered just so it looks nice but just to boil it down to the simplest google tempering chocolate in the microwave. Jacques Torres T. O. R. E. S. And he's so much fun to watch anyway. I think Sarah has a little thing for Torah. Well he's such sweetie pathetic accent. It gets you Jackson Maryland. Thanks for calling. Don't worry about the White Blue Care. Take Care Okay bye radio. Now's time for this week's cooking tip from one of our listeners. Hello this is Debbie from Littleton. Colorado and I'm calling to recommend keep the ingredient vital week blue ten on your pantry shelves. You can order this online but you can usually find it in the grocery store. Bob's red mill makes and it's usually in the baking news. I'll right next to the gluten free item. You can change all purpose flour into bread power with pink median by just adding to retreat teaspoon to a cup of all purpose flour. It also is very helpful in whole grain. Baking helping goes types of breads to rise better. So it's great ingredients and I recommend you keep Don. Thanks bye-bye if you like to share your own culinary hacker secret ingredient milk street radio. Please go to one seven seven dot com slash radio tips next. Let's find out what Adam Gopnik is thinking about this week. Adam Gopnik How are you? I am very well? Christopher how are you I'm good? I'm always alert for a new way of looking at the world. After I speak with you well let me try and take you down previously untried and path. This all began for me when I discovered J. D. Salinger's favorite recipe for popcorn salt. Now you know J D Salinger. Of course we are the author of Catcher in the Rye and the glass family stories and countless other classics. Who famously locked himself away. Almost as a hermit in New Hampshire for the last forty years of his life forbidding any Fans and in fact stopping publishing entirely because he was so fed up with the world but his son. Matthew organized a little show of Salinger artifacts at the New York Public Library and I Huge Salinger fan wandered in the see. What was there and of the many things that were there. Letters to S J Perelman the original draft of Catcher in the Rye. The thing that caught my eye given my preoccupations was his recipe for popcorn. Salt and it was pinned up there. Typed out and so being the man I am. I came home and decided that the next time we had popcorn with a movie we would try J. D. Salinger's popcorn saw would you like to know Christopher what is in J. D. Salinger's popcorns anything fermented in? It was free of that was so beautiful about as it was so kind of pure and home me and available. It has garlic salt. It has a little bit of curry powder. It has Marjoram. It has dill. Oh in a little Paprika Paprika curry deal margarine and garlic powder so I pulled all these things together being such salinger fan and is sprinkled it on our popcorn and we sat down to watch football game and you know what J. D. Salinger's popcorn salt has the same wonderful qualities as J. D. Salinger's pros. It's surprising it scintillating. It has an undercurrent of wit. And it's profoundly pleasing. I've never had better popcorn salt really. This made me think about the whole wider area of what we might call taste by association meaning food and drink. We enjoy in large part because it reminds us of something we've read and admired somewhere along the way. I'm sure you've had experiences like that or favorite recipes. That are strongly associated with particular reading voice tres with Dickens. Of course right. Pickwick papers yeah that would be right there. One of my favorites I realized as I scoured these things is James. Bond's breakfast do you remember James Bond? Breakfast yes I do softball boiled egg Scottish Marmalade in black coffee exactly right. I'm so impressed. Chris chemics coffee which the nineteen fifties was very prestigious. And I remember as a kid ten or eleven year old reading those novels for the first time that was by far the most vivid image that the novel's gave I was too young to really care about the bond girls but I remember James. Bond's breakfast thinking about some other ones that have affected. My Proust's Madeleine is probably the most famous single thing eaten in the history of literature but more memorable still are the meals that his characters swan no dead. Eat at the restaurant La Luz which is still in business in Paris. I have gone back to La Luz exactly in order just to try and be a page out of proosed for a night. Another one that appeals. To me is I don't know if you recall this at all the seed cakes. That the hobbits no yes. Throughout the Lord of the rings there's lots of feasting in Lord of the Rings but the only thing that really resonate for me was his idea of these appealing. Little seed. Cakes. You sort of eat for elevensies on your way someplace else and I never actually got a seed cake until I was spending a day reporting at that. Wonderful restaurants Saint John in London. Run by Ferguson. And he stopped at eleven to have seen cakes and they were every bit as good as I thought they might possibly be. And what struck me that? All of these things have in common the things that we actually remember literature tend not to be the ones that are the most obviously celebrated not the ones that are punctuated to be great like Babette's feast for Instance in Isaac Dennison. Now the ones that we really remember all popcorn salt. They're all things that we eaten passing not things that we focus on the whole image of this gifted hermetic super gifted super hermetic writer sitting down to watch hitchcock movies. Because that's what he loved. Best of all simply composing this popcorn salt for his family reassured me of the deep underlying humanity of J. D. Salinger's imagination. You really saying it's almost throw away foods in these novels that tell you more about the character than let's say Babette's feast where it's at the center. I remember my favorite food in in Fleming bond. Was He orders for dessert. An alligator pear. Yes that said so much about bond. He would not eat sweets right but he had alligator pear for dessert. And that little detail told you more about bond than the shaken not stirred Chris. It's so astonishing that you mentioned that because one of my other favorite moments in bond was when he orders at one point for dessert. Exactly because as you say. He doesn't eat normal sweet. Tea Orders. Pineapple sliced pineapple and I thought that was the epitome of elegance right for alligator pear pineapple. Dessert it's exactly those kinds of sideways. Throwaway things that live most brightly. I think in our imaginations it. We should just leave with my favorite comment from the Casino Royale with Daniel Craig. He orders a Martini in the bartender. Says Shaken or stirred and he says do I look like I care. A great update. They were trying to relaunch the bond character as a rougher crew more relatable to use that Arbel word character and that's the way they came up renouncing his previous drink. I'll still have bonds breakfast before I'll have bonds Martini. I totally Adam Gopnik. Thank you so much pleasure to talk. That was Adam. Gopnik staff writer for the New York. That's it for this week. Show if you tuned into later WANNA binge lists in every single episode. Please download next radio on Apple PODCASTS. Fight or wherever you find your podcast to learn more about milk street. Please go to one seven seven milk street dot com there. You can find over recipes browser online store. Order our latest cookbook. The new rules recipes. That will change the way you cook. You can also find us on facebook at Christopher Kimble's milk street on instagram and twitter at one seven seven milk street. We back next week with more food stories and thanks as always ballistic. Christopher Kimble's Milk Street radio is produced by Bookstore in association with W. G. B. H. Executive Producer. Melissa Bettino Senior Audio Editor. Melissa Allison Co Executive Producer Andersons boss. Associate producer. Jackie noack production assistant. Sarah Clap and production help from Debbie. Paddock senior audio engineer. David Goodman a digital editing from Vicky Merrick Sydney Lewisham Anthem Brown an audio mixing from Jay Allison at Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts theme music by Tube Crew Additional Music by George Agla Christopher. Kimble's Milk Street. Radio is distributed by Pete our acts.

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Cork Dorks: Inside the High-Stakes World of Sommeliers

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

51:13 min | 1 year ago

Cork Dorks: Inside the High-Stakes World of Sommeliers

"Hi this is christopher kimball before we get to this week. Show i wanna tell you about a special bonus episode. We added to the feed earlier. This week is from an episode episode of the sport with dan passion and it's a deep dive into hibachi from botches invention in the nineteen sixties by showman to how hibachi chefs learn all those crazy roese tricks to why the asian stereotypes of botchy chef sometimes assumed can be problematic so take a listen. The episode is called. Wia botchy is complicated now. Here's this week's show radio from your host. Christopher kimball and journalists bianca oscar spent eighteen months training to taste smell and serve wine to discover the secret world of elite some liaise from their strict rules. Don't poor hosts before before guests. Don't block the label with your hand to what really goes on in a michelin star restaurant what i found really fascinating and forever changed. The way that i eat out at restaurants was the preparation that the somali as do going into the floor to understand the guests. They're serving that evening. They attempt to google everyone before they come into the restaurant. They keep extensive logs on what you drank. What you do what you spend end. I mean i think a lot of us walk into the restaurant thinking that we're about to evaluate that evening that restaurant especially at the higher end is judging you way more than you are judging that we discuss ooh beating the pursuit of culinary perfection with alex news editorial director james hirsch tells elsa about his trip to cambodia. We learned how to cook not just seasoned with peppers but i i visit wolves fish a wholesale marketing boston to me follow haida haida bala grew up in brazil soccer star became to the states after an injury where he found unexpected fame cutting fish his popular instagram account features kabbalah flying one hundred pound fish in just minutes okay so you're a major league fish cutter. Let me put tair way. What are we gonna do today so after scale the fish i'm gonna do a quick wash. Which out so i i go right here. The caller could hear bonzo. Were here sides. I'll okay. I'm impressed. Believe any meter here the head off. That's amazing so you're not wasting any major nothing. So how long would it take someone to do what you just did. Do a well. Take months to get to the point. You can make just a few cuts and get off cleanly. I've been there for like fifty years every day okay. I'm i'm called <hes>. Let's head to the office his co. So now we're up at the office wolves fish. It's forty forty degrees warmer which is a good thing gonna cup of tea so let's start at the beginning. You were professional soccer player. You're seventeen years old did that for a few years injury sort of ended that career so what's it like being a seventeen year old soccer star brazil that must be just. It's a strange experience was was everything from it was my life. I stopped school to play soccer. Everybody is going to be a professional soccer player in our right there and then you transitioned to something totally different as they say yeah after injury and soccer is really devastated thirty two million so my dad sending me ta with some friends to leave in connecticut for a couple of months to clear my mind so then i end up like finding job i the seafood rational. That's where everything started now you. Are you know a world class fish cutter so you get in really early in the morning. I would assume what what time do you get in usually three o'clock in the morning. So how do you figure out whether you want to buy fish. You're selling to the top restaurants. It's all about the freshness. It'll be piece of the talcott and check the caller hall or the tail is a legal fees from the town as she liked that the like him so interesting so by that came. Check everything liked life. The <hes> the the caller the really fresh you can see still bloody and and the texture you're looking for some note you in fact you know to lean is all ball taste of the chef the way how they like it so let's say tomorrow you said to me okay michelle three thirty in the shop in cutting room. What are what are the really beginner. Rookie mistakes we own was learning to cut fish. <hes> my buzzer say be careful. Don't don't go to hollywood chainsaw it because you you are afraid to cut the fish. You make a lot of sort of circular. You've take defeat his all like a wave lives lights on my oh wait a minute the professional they cut right through can make one long smooth cut long move make sure blades really sharp and that's it so your soccer career ended a long time ago. So do you ever watch the world cup anymore or you. You're just done with soccer or are you still like i could say it's on the blood but especially for the over. I got another pressure now. You you still eat fish at home. Wonder if your day ever yourself every single day i received a whole fish vala thank you now. I know a little bit more about cutting up fish and control a lot more than i do. Thank you thank you very much quickly. It was my pleasure to have you and who master fish cutter and the director of product quality. The wholesale fish fish-market wolf's fish. Most of your radio is available anytime anywhere as podcast you can subscribe on apple podcasts tune in or wherever you get podcasts right now my co-host ceremonial trying to solve your culinary mysteries. Sarah is of course star sara's weeknight meals on public television. Also the the author of home cooking wanna one sarah how are you doing. I'm good chris but you know. I have a burning question for you about burning your dinner. No no no i want to know. What is your favorite cocktail. Oh it's the old fashioned that was no that was simple. I made a lot of them. I've gone through like ten to one every night not every night but many nights no. There's a lot of secrets. I'll just give them to you quickly. Okay shaken with ice. Is you really wanna chill town. Okay i use sort of unrefined sugar cubes which i think are much better than simple syrup which i don't like and and then i've tried maybe twenty different kinds of bidders. I've tried chocolate. Bidders charged cardamom bidders they tried. I use a combination of regular bidders in khartoum bidders in it and two ounces of bourbon to one or two small cubes of sugar a little bit of water because i find looting the alcohol content. A little bit is helpful. Oh and then bidders shake it and then strain it and then the ice cubes have to be just the right size. Wow besides that. I really don't care. I don't think you cared aired. I opened the floodgates and the other thing you can make a whisky sour which turns out to be two ounces of bourbon a third of an ounce of lemon juice and half the amount of simple syrup a- and that's a for the summer version okay got it any time left for grassi. Thank you for tuning in radio. Let's take a question. Welcome to milk street. Who's going hi. I'm ultra high elsa. Where are you calling from. I'm from sharon vermont. I'm gonna like this call right away. It could help you for the past. Two years. I've entered cookies into the world's fair. <hes> king arthur flower contests you and for all all three years i have won a ribbon and i want to keep my streak up this time round and want my neighbors to be original but not too exotic in order to keep it familiar hillier so tell us about the cookies you one ribbons four. What did you make we're given a simple draw cookie recipe and are allowed slash like encouraged to add her own flavors and ideas to it and i've added different kinds of chocolate and nuts doc and dried fruit into them in the past. Well one thing you might do is maple candy some nuts. That's obviously the appropriate for the flavoring if you can see them in a skillet in other words give them a sugar coating and then maybe chop and put them into the cookie. Maybe put one one half walnut or whatever on top that would be cool a maple butter of some kind as a sort of frosting. I don't know if you're allowed to do that would be great butternut vermont thing as well candy being nuts with maple syrup be really interesting if it doesn't have to be for mind if if you wanna go crazy they're all those wonderful spices that people in vermont of never used before leading me you know lots of cookies around the world use turmeric for example some really interesting stuff you could add that you can put an herb or something a little savory into a cookie to sort of balance the sugar but i i think candy ing nuts using maple sugar are probably that would be great idea something. Everyone would like what tends to win yeah. Are they looking for familiar. Things or the sort. Sort of outliers tend to win the stranger combinations. I would say a bit more traditional. Which is why i don't wanna go to exotic with my you know another thing you might wanna think about is taking a combination that we all know is tried and true like picnics moore's or some other combo oh that we all love and desserts and try to incorporate that somehow into your there's something you might try still a parks cookbook. Braveheart tarts brave wonder tarts. She has a lot of great classic american like cookies and things with recipes to do them at home so i would definitely awfully get a copy of that book. She's riffing baker. She's redone some of the like you can make newton's yourself but you should look at that because she has tons as of really good ideas for things that are really classically american. Which is where you want to be here. Not my stupid tumor cookie i._d. By brave tart that's a really good idea l. sa- ah help you take some of these ideas but will you also let us know how you do get back to us. Thanks so much for calling great to talk to. You really good luck for yeah. Take care also fi all right. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling. This is pamela freeland hi pamela. Where are you calling from. I'm calling from venice florida. How can we help you today. I love to cook. I have a well-stocked kitchen and i was making a yeast bread recently and i went to make it and i have three different loaf pan. I have a glass pan metal pan at a dark metal. I suppose like a non stick. Pan what i'm wondering is do i need all three little pass or if i get down to one which one should i keep the lighter metal one would be my choice the trouble with dark medals at tends to shoe darken. The crust and glass is not the best conductor of heat. It's good for pies because then you can see when the pie is cooked through oh but my choice absolutely would be you said you do have a lighter metal one i do yes that would be the one that i would keep. That's what i say chris. I don't care let me explain my answer. You could adjust well first of all. I think gold touch or something like in between light and dark is the one the hat which i like a lot but you're right darker pan the metal will retain more heat but you can adjust the oven temperature for that you can certainly bake an darker pan but overall all i think a lighter pan is probably the easiest and you're unlikely to have problems with that but you can use all use pyrex for years and it works works. To how much would you reduce the temperature fused it for darker pan twenty five degrees and for the glass what would you do. They always talk about reducing the temperature. I don't bother reducing it at all. I think retains heat well but i've never found it to be a big difference but dark pan. The risk you get is obviously over browning the outside side right so you might be a little bit but yeah a lighter general's probably the best and make sure it's heavy duty like somebody's little heavier but i think sara's advice is pretty good all right okay there. We go perfect. I had one other real quick ones. You're good. I the same thing with sheep pens. I has house <hes> dark nonstick sheet pan. I have a cookie sheet pan. I've got a air cushioned one and then i've got my favorite is just a light metal one. Is there a preference in sheet pans. Yeah don't use a sheep pen a half baking sheet which is rimmed. I have like six or seven of those and they're very heavy duty and their cost twelve bucks each. I use them for roasting chicken. Use them for cookies. I use them for anything and everything and i've tried to kushner ones insulator ones tonight. They don't think they cookie through. I'm not a fan either. Cookies end up mushy yeah. I thought i would be a fan but i i wasn't so you sound like you're serious baker well. I'm a serious cook actually back in culinary school at age seventy really good for you. What's the name of the school. I'm at kaiser university in florida in their culinary program. I'm actually not working on a degree. I'm taking all their cooking and baking classes and go. What i'd really like to do is teach children to cook. That's a great good for you. It's really great. Wow you're an inspiration. Well thank you for calling. Thank you you and good luck with that. That's exciting. Yes oh it is thanks so much. This is most j. radio. If you have a cooking question or need to resolve a culinary debate give serene eight five five four two six nine four three. That's eight five five four two six nine eight four three or email us at questions and milky radio dot com welcome milk street. Who's calling hi. This is mel hernandez from san antonio texas. How can we help you. Every question about specialists okay the family. Has this cooking certain foods. Sometimes i'm not able to get all the food on the spatula at once say cooking pancakes or example easy. <hes> and it's not like it's stuck to this gillet or anything else but <hes> am i using the spatula correctly is correct protocol to use those or should i get one one of the bigger ones that you see at the the restaurants use the chefs would use or something. Are you cooking on a griddle or in a skillet sometimes a great deal of mostly the skillet griddle. You can use anything anything you want because you've got the room but in a skillet i think the trick is you mentioned not being able to flip the food may because a specialist to narrow but the bigger problem is is getting an in flipping just one pancake at a time not to or flipping one of the eggs and not too thin edge spatulas. There's sometimes called fish. Spatulas was they have very thin edges and there are also angled institue. Were you can sort of vertically come down and then under the food instead of having they come in horizontally which i think is important and they come in different widths and they also come with silicon edge. If you have a nonstick skillet so a thin edge fish spatulas what i use as much as possible especially when you have a crowded skillet and it's about precision that's really the question is just to flip over what you want get. It flipped in then so it flips properly and put back in the right place. I mean sarah. I agree. I love i think the one that i have currently made by lampson <music>. The best thing about them is that they're flexible so you can sort of really and they're very thin. Sue can really slide under whatever it is. You're doing and i agree with chris. There's sort of a medium medium width. I imagine you can get thicker or thinner but they worked for everything. I use them for. Everything absolutely find the really big classic special. It'd be too clumsy yeah to why why inflexible inflexible you needed to be flex anybody who's inflexible. I can't freddie particularly anybody in this room. They don't call me a fish bachelor yeah so and they only 'cause you know ten or twenty asks me to all right. They were called. Thanks for calling welcome to milk street. Who's calling sandy hi sandy. Where are you calling from. I'm calling from palm harbor florida. What can we help you with today. Thank you so much for taking my call. I just admire you both so much and i'm just really grateful that you do this to give opportunity to ask these questions so thank you so much. Thank you for having a question yeah. My question has to do with garlic garlic. You know i've always been told that you're supposed to never cook garlic at a high heat so you don't burn it and get a bitter taste yet. I come across so many recipes off the top of my head. There's like certain sheet pan recipe where they're telling you the mix everything with garlic and then you're blasting it and a high heat in the oven and i'm i'm just wondering. Is there a way to cook garlic on a higher heat without getting better well. Let me ask you a question. This particular recipe was the garlic clean. Kohl cloves wasn't minced wasn't sliced while minced doesn't sound that doesn't sound like a good idea. I agree with your gut. What was tossed last with what protein chicken or i would guess it would be chicken. That's normally what it is on that type of recipe gonna cook it yeah well. I think the garlic would burn by the time the chicken was done. I mean if you'd said whole cloves and let's say they were sort of tucked underneath the chicken or something probably they would have survived the ordeal but generally. I don't cook garlic at a high heat. I'm with you. I usually started you know she'd pin. You can't help it or i might add it later to the a sheet pan. You can add things to the sheet pan in stages. There's no you know rule that you have to put it all in at once all the vegetables all right now. We have a recipe sabih. We called trae baked chicken. Its name we got from nigel lawson. You put chicken parts on a baking tray and put garlic whole close use appealed. How close in the middle was some herbs and stuff and you can roast it along with the chicken. They won't burn roasting a whole headed garlic. You'll get a nice buttery. Creamy the skin or take it out of the skin. It's totally peeled. Close okay. There's not a whole head and then when you take the chicken off you had some water to the pan a fewer herbs lemon the juice and you can actually whisked on the pan with the chicken juices and it makes a wonderful sauce so as long as the clove is whole you're okay but once once you mentioned you're absolutely right you do not want to use high heat in general high heat and garlics a bad idea. Yeah i agree yeah okay. Oh that's a great idea yeah that sounds delicious that sauce with the garlic and the lemon and so forth. I'll have to try that and just keep my garlic. Oh yeah and the great thing is as those juices exude from the chicken. Is you bake it. That's the basis of your sauce in all can be done on the sheep panel that simple. It's great great well sandy. Thanks for calling thank you so much. Take care percents by by listening to mostly radio. I'm christopher kimball up next next. We discovered the secret world of wine service with journalist bianca bosco that in just a moment hello. This is most your radio. I'm your host christopher. Kimball journalists bianco bosco didn't think much about wine until she discovered hidden universe of elite wind service with its own rules in idiosyncrasies. She went on to spend eighteen months investigating this world in also training to become a certified sommelier. Tell me inner book cork dork bosca recounts her journey from shadowing sommelier at michelin star institutions to our own restaurant gigs to her stint as guest the judge in a master sommelier competition bianca how are you. I'm doing very well. How about you good so. Let's start with the super. Super bowl of wine tastings or somali competitions is called top som- you went to it. Where's it held in. What is the competition about so the competition listen. At least when i was there was held in california wine country and it was a pretty excruciating test of of the sommeliers skills there was a theory section so being tested on all sorts of insane wine minutia a blind tasting hastings section and then test of service which basically involve judges being the most obnoxious guests they possibly could be to test the sommeliers metal people do this partially for fun but more because for top sommeliers these exams are away to prove themselves within the industry and also prepare air for the kind of great ultimate title of the sommelier world which is the court of master sommeliers master suddenly exam so so here's a question i've had in this section where you're trying to identify wine. <hes> one of the people you were with says quote. This is malone reload dominated blend from the right bank of the bordeaux from the village of sentimentally all. I'm it turns out. It was from medoc about twenty miles away on the other side of the river. So did you come away thinking that actually these people are very good at identifying winds in a blind tasting or that. It's well. It's random. They're very good at identifying wines at a blind tasting which is not to say that they always get it right. I mean let's step back from and talk about just how challenging blind tasting is a badgen. The your sat down in front of let's say four glasses of wine and now your job is informant. It's per glass to figure out what grape was made with. How was it made what year was it made and where was it may not like country but think some tiny plot of land the size of central park right and what's made in particularly difficult about that is that in order to be good at this first of all you have to trust senses that were not used to trusting right taste and smell. I mean humans himself elsa delicate sensory ecosystems if you will and so for a summary gay this task can be thrown off by something as simple as maybe a a half hour less sleep that they got the night before their nose a little dry from the plane. The altitude people talk about the weather changing their ability to get the aromas in the wine not to mention stress right. These people are here. Their reputations are on the line. <hes> it's an incredibly stressful experience to go under an all of that can really throw things out of line. Let's get to the next part of the top. Some test where you actually serving wine to a table and the table is is made up of judges trying to make it as difficult as possible to test the patients in social skills of the somalias so yes essentially essentially the same way as for the service portion of this competition have a very limited time window in which they have to complete a certain number of tasks for a table able and move between different tables and so you know imagine these guests are chatty. They're curious. They're annoying. You know they're asking all sorts of detail questions. About where did this one come from who made it. What would you recommend you know. It's really <hes> there's a judge that you know to try and throw the people off their game would essentially dig his finger into his nose and just pick his nose rush really you know because the thing is about service and the role of sommeliers and the restaurant is it's not just about the mechanics of executing certain tasks right. It is also about the theater of dining. It's about this illusion of elegance of ease of fluidity and all of that is what these judges are really challenging challenging to see that when all really hits the fan. Can you still be decant and poor that old aboard. Oh well you quote from your book. <hes> this is your following. Someone called morgan <hes> when he poured a taste madeira for the master somali at my table a splash of wine hit the rim of the glass us the entire table grew silent and not a single person morgan included breathed as we watch the fat juicy brown droplet role as if in slow motion seven of the outside of the rim along glasses side and down the stem so a drop of wine that escapes the bowl. The glass is a disaster yeah. I think i described it as a turn on a wedding dress i mean it's that awkward and ugly and bad i mean it was one of the more painful things i've ever seen happen online world and there's lots of rules here that the average person is not aware of don't poor men before women don't poor host before guests. Don't block the labor and so there's a whole underworld of rules and regulations around wind service absolutely don't touch yourself yourself. Don't touch the table. Don't touch geck's don't touch the bowl of the wine glass and leave your nasty fingerprints all over it and i will say that initially none one of these made sense to me i mean i was in the process of mastering these so that i could actually take the court of somalia's certified. Someone gave exam and i i didn't get i mean i really was like does it. Matter if i'm pouring you open-handed versus backhanded does clockwise counterclockwise really make a difference and what i found. Is that in some cases. I think that these rules do exist for practical reasons. You know like keeping your thumb champagne cork. It's sherman champagne. Corks can erupted twenty twenty to thirty miles per hour. They can be a bit of a loaded weapon and then there are other ones that are less practical and more symbolic right where it is about out more the the atmosphere that you're creating. It's about the sort of sense that you're conveying to the diner and i think that that is no less important. You know i think that that even if you as a diner don't know that your server should pour that wine open-handed meaning palms facing you as in the back of their hand you we feel that extra effort that care as they do so so let's go into the world of restaurants where you spent some time it per se you said that they were known for bringing ballet dancers to teach the staff how to move or george george hands out guidelines on lipstick color jewelry style nail color at cetera cetera. No fragrance strong smelling shampoos. What are some of the inside rules and tricks. These restaurants use when training and presenting their staff. I mean you sort of named it but i think that what i found really fascinating forever changed. The way that i eat out at restaurants was the preparation that the sommeliers do going into the floor not only about their personal appearance and odor but to understand the guests. They're serving that evening. I i mean i think a lot of us walk into the restaurant thinking that we're about to evaluate it that evening. That restaurant especially at the higher end is judging you way more than you are judging coaching them so for example. If you're a really attractive couple you get a better table. Potentially i was i did a stodgy at a two michelin star a restaurant where the maitre d' described to me having to quote unquote dress the room and so yeah there was an absolutely stunning couple you know he was scruffy and his leather leather jackets. She was as tall thin blond. You know he really wanted to put them in a in a very central table to. I guess make them. I'm kind of this decoration part of the experience part of the atmosphere part of again the theater a fine dining. If you were a guest at the higher end restaurants they attempt attempt to google everyone before they come into the restaurant they keep extensive logs on what on what you do what you spend <hes> you could would be labeled a wine p._x. Which is short for palsson extraordinaire. If you spend a whole lot of money you might be p._x. Which is passed son tinkler mall mall extraordinaire. You could be a s. o. e. short for sense of entitlement or if you throw temper tantrums you might be labeled an h. W. c. which means handle with care <hes> and there's a whole shorthand that essentially is logged and then when the table is seated printed out for the servers the summarize summarize the captains to actually understand how to treat that guest so what about advice for people listening to this show shallow about ordering wine at a restaurant most people and i include myself in this when they go to a restaurant they really have no idea what they're doing and the reason is. There's so many the things to know vintage. Continent place of origin left bank right bank. It's just too much information. So how do you bridge that gap because for most people people you know it's like i. I don't know but i know what i like. I don't know why but i know what i like. I would argue that if you're starting with memorizing grape varieties an aging laws. You're starting from the wrong place. I think that in order to have a really healthy empowered relationship with wine you need to back up up and start with the senses. You know think about smelling wine. I know that when i started i could stick my nose into a glass of wine on a really good day. Tell you that i was smelling wine. These somalis they could stick their nose into the glass and they can smell peach and charcoal and graphite and some of that is b s but some of it isn't and some of it it comes from just having built these sense memories from basically taking the time to learn in the same way. We learned the color green or blue. What does a strawberry smell like what is cracked cracked. Black pepper smell like an any of us can do that right. I remember training also with a master perfumer who said to describe the smell of everything that i sniff in the course of vidale starting with my shampoo in the morning and my mouth wash at night so that would be my first recommendation before you start knowing where the lar- is versus burgundy. What what does a raspberry smell like internalize that and the second thing is i think understanding the way that tastes really function on your tongue when we put his acid feel like how much does that make make you drool do. Do you think a five hundred dollar bottle of wine can ever be worth five hundred dollars or is this mythology definitely so. I mean look a five hundred dollar. Bottle of wine is not fifty times better than ten dollar bottle of wine. I mean there's no like direct math that you can make i do you think that five dollars buys you a lot more between ten and fifteen and fifteen and twenty than it does obviously between four hundred fifty and four four hundred fifty five you know i think that beyond a certain point i think when you get beyond three figures the price is very much about branding and very much about supply supply and demand. So what do you buy. I mean if you go out to dinner. Is there a sweet spot for you. Because you know a lot about wine yeah my i mean my approach is really look. I think that there are some wines where you're paying for the brand right like when i go out to eat i often by winds from sicily i love reds and whites from mm sicily and in general you can get a much better value for that because it's a little bit more of an unknown quantity than say tuscany or winds from berlow. It's so interesting you say that because my i came to that conclusion a few years ago with a friend of mine who's in the wine business and for twenty bucks you can buy terrific rick winds from sicily. Oh absolutely one of the things i learned when i was working as a seller out when i first started sort of how a by the glass wine list is put it together <hes> a lot of by the glass wine lists have with some ways call gimme winds this sort of name brand your california chardonnays or new zealand so venial blanks california cabs that people know they recognize and they look at them. They see them and they say give it to me. I don't care how much they cost but in general what i think it's on wireless. Let's if you wanna find a good value and drink well by the wine that you've never heard of from the region. You can't pronounce the grape. You don't know because oftentimes there because someone really loved it so your journalists. You went down the rabbit hole of somalia's and wine. Was this something that always appealed to you or you. Just thought it was a good story wine was well. Let's just say sounds like you know a good deal about wine. <hes> so maybe maybe you spent your saturday nights picking out ones from burgundy versus beaujolais but i spent mind picking out wines from a bottle versus. A box didn't really know the difference. Instead thought maybe there was one and i didn't really care until i discovered this world of quirks and so what really drew me in was was i mean first of all i've always been obsessed with obsession and if you've ever sat down next to you know at a dinner party next to someone who loves wine you know that they are maniacs right completely lee obsessed <hes> and i was also intrigued by you know the sensory abilities like i at the time was working as the tech editor at the huffington post and i felt like my life is one of sensory deprivation where there's was this world of sensory cultivation and i wanted to know what i was missing. You know why wine why people spend all this time and money and energy on it and so yeah i quit my job and started training to become assimiliate and i didn't know that i would fall in love with it. I didn't know that i would become obsessed by the end but as you can probably tell. I certainly have become so bianca. Thank you so much for being millstream. Thank you so much for having me that was journalists. Bianca bosca her book is called cork door a winfield adventure among the obsessive sommeliers big bottle hunters and rogue scientists who taught me to live for taste but much like someone as a good example of the art of deception in the service of entertainment hard work that allows wonder under percent of reality it is indistinguishable from magic ricky jay the consummate card shark could throw playing cards and watermelons or did you poker even after her. He allowed you to switch cards with him. J just like restaurants outwardly projected sense of engaging reality while shielding the customer from the chaos and the manipulation hippie relation that actually goes on behind the scenes and that's why sommeliers are in fact magicians the understand that the finding is all about appearances. Take time to chat with james hirsch about this week's recipe stir fried black pepper chicken with green beans jim how are you. I'm doing great you went to cambodia recently moved far flung trip to date and you came back and all you could talk about will capricorn yeah. Could you please explain why you went ten thousand miles and came back and talked about pepper. Pepper does not interest me in the slightest like most people people. I consider it salts kind of obligatory plus one on the table. You throw it on because you were in the habit of throwing on and that's about it well in cambodia. They treated far art differently in cambodia. Black pepper isn't just a seasoning you use it the table that you cook with and you cook with it copiously and and it doesn't just have a flavor and aroma which we're familiar with but it has a texture because they never grind it really finally they grind exceedingly coarsely and so it has a real presence presence in every dish and i'm telling you they put it like by the tablespoon into each dish per serving. I was blown away and of course my first thought was well. This is going to be an edible and it wasn't it's really quite balanced and the pepper unlike chili peppers which have kind of a lingering black pepper coins actually have more of a fiery pop op and it's very i it doesn't persist in your mouth and so you can tolerate it a lot that i was really surprised by how much i loved so are these pepper corns exactly the same tele cherry something we would have here or as part of the secret of the recipe. It's different proper well if you ask him boden's. Of course they're going to tell you that. Only the pepper corns grown in the kampot region of of cambodia are the true the best and so on and so forth but we use you know conventional pepper corns here when we were replicating the dishes and they worked just fine. I mean the camp. Current current are lovely and delicious so i assume that there's something in this dish. Whatever it is other than pepper corns there are so we were introduced to a dish pan pot chicken and this is basically a stir fry where you're combining chicken and carrots and green beings with three tablespoons of coarsely asli crushed black pepper and it's very simple survey comes together very quickly we toast the pepper corns and a dry skillet to kind of bring out some more of their nuance more of their flavor and deepen it a bit and we're balancing all that pepper with some lime juice which is by the way classic cambodian combination is lime juice and black pepper and you throw it together. It's on the table and thirty minutes. This is very simple so just tell me one more time three tablespoons of the right path not too much not too much and again because you're keeping it really course and there's so much of it. It actually almost ads like a bread crumb consistency to the dish. It adds that texture as well as the flavor and the aroma. You're really surprised me how good it was. I'm going to have to trust you so jam. You went to cambodia came back with cambodian white pepper chicken with green beans with three tablespoons of pepper returns sounds. There's like a must try. Thank you thank you you can find this recipe and all of our recipes at one seven. Seven milk speak dot com <music>. You're you're listening to milk street radio coming up. We discussed the past president future of sous vide alex. I news we'll be right. This is most of your radio. I'm christopher kimball now. It's time for some culinary inspiration action from one of our listeners. My name is martha and my tip is that old or overwrite bananas <music> candy made into banana jam. The method is the same as for any jam you chop up the fruit cook it poured into jar. You can add other ingredients like raisins reasons or spices and a pinch of salt enhances flavors but you shouldn't need to add any more sugar so this is good with yogurt on ice cream and crepe some pancakes with peanut butter on sandwiches or you can just out of the jar. Thank you if you'd like to share share your own culinary tip on most radio. Please go to one seven seven milk street. Dot com slash radio tim's one more time one seven seven milk street dot com slash nice radio tips next up. It's mad french food scientists alex. I news alex how are you. I'm good. How are you this. I'm good what's going on in paris this week. So this week i want to take you guys on a trip down memory lane the old fashioned but i just want to remember the moment fifteen years ago when i was young and foolish but already into food food so back then i made an experiment in my kitchen because i had heard rumors about a high-tech yet low temp cooking technique that promised to deliver perfectly cooked steaks every time the problem was it was only used by hand full of wealthy michelin star chef chef and passionate food geeks at that time still. I wanted to give it a try myself so i took a primitive very effective approach to what you guys might have identified as succeed. Oh yes you do now do do. Yes we do so so back. Then used a cheap high school kirk on keep warm the mode i hope to switch and i place a basic you random woman joined site ident- shove the steak inside a plastic bag out there and plays the whole thing inside and basically for about an hour every time i would see the temperature going being above one twenty two degrees fahrenheit. That's my medium rare. I would flick that switch off and on just bring it down and then turn it back on back doing so i was maintaining a stable temperature so putting the the life of my appliance at risk for scher indian india and long story short i got myself at perfectly cooked steak extremely tender and pinkish red all the way through inside that was my first first encounter with suveyed and that genuinely blew my mind now did did did did you sere the steak afterwards or or now now yes i did see a steak but but it was just the first time for me to to experience such perfection now fast forward to today the date fifteen years later succeed is not only are complicated are result or by nails. I mean many cooks. They use it. It's easy to available. It's inexpensive suspensive from michelin star chef. Dealing with thousand dollars complicated unavailable to the public equipment. You can now buy a super legit immersion evidence later. That's the nickname soviet fall under eighty bucks. Most of them interact with smartphone. An app is taking care of the temperature for you. You don't have to do anything no start and wait for perfection to be delivered. I'm not sure exactly what's your opinion on soviet case. I hate it. Absolutely you know why i hate it. I hate him because when i cook i cook. I want to smell the food. I want to mess surround with the food. I want to ask you. Put it in a plastic bag and you go watch for an hour. I mean come on. That's no no but i i love cooking as well. I love touching the food but i'm also the leader of of of an online community of home cooks who are scared gail and daily fight sometimes the cooking the kitchen is daunting to them and i think this appliance in its defense is going to bring unloads of people in the kitchen people who were too afraid of ruining expensive kits of meat of dedicate fields fish and for that. I think it's good think of your winkle. You'll nabeel mum. All these guys can now perfectly cooked a steak every time now. I will just slightly go in your direction. I hope so because i'm starting to lose faith in the french modern french view please don't now. Let's just fast fast forward to the future ten years fifteen years from now. These appliance has been widely accepted. Soviet is now as available as microwave of an every household. One is not even cool anymore. How can you cook. If you don't have a suvit you just eat cold salad now. Since <music> severe produces nothing shot of perfection remember we can now assume that at this age all stakes will be created equal cool all or just cooked perfect now. The question is what happens to your brain when all you have ever known in in your life is perfection excellent question. I think the world perfection itself becomes a meaningless stakes are not perfect anymore. Komo what makes it perfect by definition is the existence of non suffolk stakes are no risk anymore no surprises in this this future. I think we might have become a bunch of harmless sociopath. How i can't i am no idea where we're gonna go from su vida sociopaths obviously obviously homeless mainly because we don't have teeth no more the meat meaty so tender. We don't need them now. Usually when cooking something you seal the food afterwards you said so yourself in in the beginning just to give it a slight slight amount of texture at least but you know what in this future since we are not excited anymore. We just get it out of the bag. It's tender and we eat it like this soft and flaccid and that's it. We basically killed the state. We killed yeah the motion now. Don't get me wrong wrong. I am not against soviet. I don't wanna be that guy. You know the the guy with the thing on his head and just seeing the <unk> is upon us you may you may want to be me exactly. I don't wanna be you think su- i succeed still is a great option especially if it allows you you to spend more time with the ones you love if it brings you in the kitchen. If it gets the fee out of you that's a great appliance in this case but if you only use severe in the pursuit of the ubiquitous and vastly overrated beth fiction these days i don't know i think we should work on on acceptance more than defection. Instead cooking is not about perfection. It's about cooking show and and you don't know exactly what you're gonna. Turn out every time. It's like living in a perfect world with perfect weather every day too. It's why i don't live in san pig bad weather right. It's part of life. It makes sense and that's why. I chose to live in palace. I love the thrill of waking up in the morning and just knowing if i need my boots on all my flips so we we both thanks can be useful in the kitchen as a tool but cooking should represent the human condition and the human condition has nothing to do with perfection is i know this is the thing that i remember every morning when i look at myself in the in the middle yeah yeah well. I've been looking at myself in the mirror long longer than you have alex. Thank you so much. The culinary arts and perfection is that misguided goal and i think we both agree. Thank you. Thank you <music>. That was you to host alex news. He's also the author of just two french guy cooked. Sous vide is just the latest technology to invade our kitchens pressure cooker. The crock pot the instant pot but i would ask whether fix it and forget it represents. The very best cooking has to offer in oaxaca for example pressure cookers used to cook tough meet before the dishes finished in the sauce on top of the stove skill the sounds and smells cooking really essential to what makes cooking pleasurable sociable convenience always comes price aw that's it for today. If you tune in later and listen again you can download and subscribe to most radio wherever you find your podcasts to learn more about milk street. Please go to one seven awesome. No street dot com there. You can download each week's recipe taken online cooking class or order our latest cookbook milk street tuesday nights. You can also find us on facebook at christopher kimble's milk street in on instagram and twitter at one seven seven street. We'll be back next week and thanks of course for listening. <music> <music> <music> christopher campbell's milk street radio is produced by milk street in association with w. G. b. h. Executive producer melissa gino senior editor melissa allison producer andy sensabaugh associate associate producer jackie nolaac production assistant stephanie cone and production help from debbie paddock senior audio engineer douglas sugar additional editing from vicky merrick sydney lewis and haley faker and audio mixing jay allison at atlantic public media in woods hole massachusetts. The music nick by chubu crew additional music by george brendel agok christopher kimble's milk street radio is distributed by p r in a.

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The Ace of Cakes: Duff Goldman Bakes Up The Hogwarts Express

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

51:59 min | 2 years ago

The Ace of Cakes: Duff Goldman Bakes Up The Hogwarts Express

"Hi, this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading this week's podcast. You can go to our website milk street radio dot com for each recipe or one recommendations and updates about her cooking school and live events at milk street. Here's this week show. This is most rate radio from the I'm your host Christopher Kimball today, I'm chatting with Duff Goldman at a shop charm city, cakes Goldman and his crew take cake decorating to a whole new level. When you and our kids like, maybe we got a cake that was like cut out in like the silhouette of like a little truck now parents and community, but I wanna get a cement mixer Chuck. And I want the thing to actually spend. And I want you to fill that thing with jelly beans. So that you push a button, and it lifts up and jelly beans. Fall out of it. Really? Okay. We can do that. Also coming up, we share a recipe for oncho chili salsa Aroha J Kenji Lopez I'll digs into the science of. No neat does. And now, it's my interview with so he Kim chef and owner insa in Brooklyn Kim's new book is called Korean home cooking. So he how are you? I'm really well. Thank you. You went to Barnard. I went to Columbia. Oh, you did. And you worked with Dan, Barbara at blue hill, and you have a Korean barbecue and carry oak restaurant. So here's the question. Everybody has is that if you have a karaoke restaurant release to karaoke room. How many people are actually good singers? Like you have to listen stuff. Right. So so is this really most of the time or are there? Some really good singers coming to the restaurant there, some fabulous things. But that was an absolute concern of mine. So we basically said we definitely have to make sure whether there's good singers of bad singers out there that we make it sound proof. So so there's some great singing back there. But I you know, I have to tell you. I've heard some pretty pretty pretty amazing voices out there that are not so nice to hear. Amazing. Yes. So their places in the world, South Korea being one of them wear the American military, obviously had a great presence in and things like spam and ice cream have become popular. So you actually have a recipe for homemade spam, which I've not seen before. So so talk to me about spam. Because spam spin the United States as a different image, shall we say than maybe spam and other places in the world. Sure. So growing up in Korea. I lived there until the age of ten they there was a lot of influence from the American culture, by way of the the US marine and army and in terms of food, and what's on the table for dinner. My mother would get you know couple of cans of spam. And she would slice it up really thin. And and sometimes just simply pan fry it in a batter of egg or she would take little dice of spam. And put it in say kimchi stew, and so it was kind of you big witness, but it was one taste that I didn't enjoy and it just didn't quite in my opinion, in my young opinion didn't fit really well too. What a traditional Korean dinner means. So as as as a grown adult when I knew the history of of our small country that is a peninsula. I understood exactly how it all sort of came together and fast forward. To opening insa, I'm trained chef and you get to a certain age where you take certain things like that's already processed and canned and jarred and made, and you and you sort of tackle it on as a challenge as a professional challenge. Why can't we make a spam? That is better than spam. That's deeply philosophical. And also, you know, it's far basically that you making and your steaming in a container, and it actually was much easier than I thought it was going to be without all the additives that I feel like gets in the way you also have in your book this great photograph of teach you how to cook rice. So how do you cook rice? And we'll what is your basic method with the knuckles in the water. The basic method is that you rinse the rice as you would you know, whenever you make rice. And then you you cover the rice with enough water. And so if you put your hand, very flat on top of the rice the water should come right up to your knuckles. Now, if you have really really giant hands. It will not work. But if you have relatively normal hands. It does work it does work and also it sort of relies on also cooking based on intuition. And and just really using your senses to know when something is done when something is is done right soil marinated, seven-minute eggs talk about this. So that's just a fun way that I used to eat eggs when I was little I do fess up somewhere in the cookbook that I was a picky eater. And that they used to call me the monster kit on Gibson because I wouldn't eat dinner lunch breakfast, unless ahead eggs on the table. And we went to visit some family members in the south. And that's how they did it they produce some amazing soya sauce. They made it themselves, and they just hard boil some eggs, and then they just put it in there to color, and it just gives it that Amami. You know, it's just mommy packs snack, basically. But I thought to do it a soft soft boil because the yoki tenderness it just goes so nicely so bond, Sean aren't essence a series of messy plates. That's right MS as small plates, but it is what it sort of the leading charge of a Korean dinner table. Bon john. I would I always like to say that that is sort of the fundamentals of Korean cooking, the home cook, you know, whether it's a mother a dad cooking meal for the family. You just make a whole bunch of bond. John, you know, very much like Sunday how you would cook for the rest of the meal is very similar to that. You take on these various projects, and you have something that is pickled something that is safe. Soy's stewed something that is fresh like a, you know, watercress Nomore something that is stir fried, and they're basically to call them. Exactly side dishes is not correct. Because to me, they're sort of center stage. And so you would have like a plethora of choices of bunch on in the middle of the table. And then you have your individualize small bowl of rice. And then you have your little stew or shoop. And then everything else is sort of is up for grabs. So you share the bond John so is very much a communal dining experience. And and I talk about how you could always tell like, you know, a mother has a favorite child because you know, that mother would then take various Bon Chon sort of out of that child's region put it on that rice, the showing love and favouritism and also bunch on is a way to to figure out if you're a special guests or not like if they put out one or two or three then. You know, they're like you a little bit. But if you put out the work saying like twelve plus little bond challenge on the table. Then though, you're being treated well. So you said favoritism so with the family with lots of kids was their favouritism with the kids or you just mean a child versus adult. I would say favor to them if you know, mostly I have three other siblings. So there's four of us. There's basically three sisters. I'm the third of the girls. And my my youngest brother is a boy, and my grandma the foreshore was show, favoritism like if there's whole fish on the table, you know, she would like debone the fish with their top six and put like a big hunk of like on my brothers played in like, she'll put a little bit. But I still love her. There's a little there's still a little resentment there though. I mean, there's a little resentment. But I dedicate the book to my grandmother, you know, she's she's of her times. And I I excuse it. But if he were to come over for dinner, I would make twenty plus bunch on Chris. I'm looking at least five you'll get more. Yes. So you spend it's been a real pleasure. And thank you for joining a son Millstream. Thank you so much for having me, a pleasure. That was so he Kim author of Creon home cooking. St. radios available anytime anywhere, it's podcast. You can subscribe on apple podcasts at your were ever. You get your podcasts. It's time to answer your cooking questions with my co-host, Sara Moulton series. Of course, the star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television. Also, the author of the book, home cooking one. Oh one. Sarah. Are you ready to go? I am ready to take those questions. Welcome to most street who's calling I'm lane Abrahams. How are you? I'm fine. Thank you. How are you? Pretty good. How can we help you? Well, the market that we go to often doesn't have the bread that. We like. So when it's there on the shelf, we buy it up. And then for better for worse. We get home. It goes right into the freezer. I they've keeping than we need it. We take a loaf out of the freezer put into the frigerator where we use it. But when it comes out there's often quite a bit of ice crystals inside the bag now, I know that that ice comes from the humidity from the bread. But what I wonder is if I am to the out of the bag the bread ends up kinda dry. But if I leave the is in the bag gets in the fridge it melts, and it can make the bread soggy. So what's the right thing to do before you put the bread in the freezer, take it out of the bag came in double wrap it tightly? I would be my suggestion plastic wrap in foil. How do you eat the bread? You just like take off chunks or do you slice? It. It sandwich bread. Oh, you know, you might even want to try popping it in the oven. Just to reheat. It a little bit not to cook it, but just it's sort of restores its moisture nobody's making sandwich. I know. That's kind of a bother for making Sam making lunch around the house. Ten times do twelve pushups heat up and then make the sandwich. All right. All right. There was who just did caramelized onions for forty five minutes this weekend. I think that's a good thing. I agree with Chris rapid better. That's really the problem tightly in twice. Yeah. Twice. We're just thinking come home from the market. I wanted to get everything put away. But if that's a difference be the right thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. Because there is air in that bag in between the loose baggy and the bread. And that's where you get all that moisture. So we think with ISIS more coming from the air rather than coming out of the bread the moisture is coming out of the bread into the bag into the air in the next crystallizing now. So if you wrap it tightly, you're not going to get as much of that going racial day in the bread just Britain. Okay. We'll try that. And the make your sandwiches on toast. I do the same thing. I do free. Some Brady I've the same thing you do because you by artisanal it only lasts a few do toasted for a sandwich. And I think the toasting does help and you made fun of me. No. I just I don't heat the oven up for twenty minutes. I just throw it in a toast. Okay. So I can still make fun of you. So double wrap you should be fine. We'll try that. Okay. All right. Thanks for calling take care. Thank you. Welcome to milk street, who's calling scale Kovac. How can we help you today? My husband is from Germany and recently, we went back to Germany, and we had the experience in a wonderful. Restaurant having Frankfort green sauce with schnitzel dish. And we both fell in love with it. You know, a lot of the herbs that are used because apparently is at least seven in each one are things that number one. It never heard of. I don't know where to buy. So I was hoping you might be able to help me with that was just like a salsa Verde. It was all avoid or oil with Erbil. It's actually a fairly creamy sauce. My wife's grandmother was Austrian and she used to serve the sauce, and it was based on a bench. Mel I believe actually, flowering barbequed, and then adding milk, and I asked her if it was a salsa Verde, and she was quite indignant that actually had dairy. That's the way hurts. She did. It was a hot or cold sauce. I think it was room temperature you headed on schnitzel. Yes. It could have been a crimp fresh take off. But actually, I think the issue we're talking about here are the herbs. Yeah. Dillard's one of them in the needed parsley. Chives Pimpernel Borish sherve and sorelle. Let me ask you question. What you liked about the sauce was what exactly the cream of it or the herb profile? Well, that's interesting because certainly the community of it. And the flavor went well with the dish that we were served. We didn't know enough about what was in it to say that. Oh, gee, the barrage really made a difference. Yeah. Are there other herbs that are similar to that that are more generally available? If we can't find these, and if we can't find them locally are they available dry and could those be somehow some try. Herbs. Two groups sort of the base parsley is a base Basil's obey cetera. And then the sharper more pungent aromatic herbs tarragon time deal. Also would be great. I think what's good about the sauces. There's a cream meanest to it. But this sharpness to it as well. So I would just get parsley. As a base is always a good start and had two or three. Other more pungent herbs. I would make it when you can go to farmers market or you grow it. But I wouldn't end up spending fifteen dollars on five packages of herbs from the supermarket right for the sorrel, add lemon juice for your cream. I would use crimp fresh which you can boil. So you could heat it up throw in the fresh herbs. Maybe saute up some shallots or something. I throw in the crash throw in the fresh herbs add salt and pepper. And you might have something that vaguely comes near to what you enjoyed. Okay. Well, that's really helpful. Thank you so much. Okay. And not. Dryden Dryden writer care except for a few. I think Rosemary and time or fine. But this is all about fresh herbs. So all right. Thank you Gail going. Okay. But they. This is most your radio if you have a great kitchen mystery that's waiting to be solved. Give us a call eight five five four to six nine eight four three that's eight five five four to six nine eight four three or Email us at questions at mill street radio dot com. Welcome to milk street. Who's on the line? I it's Kate calling from youthful southwest, Florida. Hi, Kate from southwest, Florida. How can we help you today? Well, I'll tell you. We have blueberries that are half. And we also smoothies. The thing is that when we put blueberries enter smoothies almost immediately the mixture gels, and it's very unpleasant texture. So I don't know why that happens. It doesn't happen with other fruits, and I also don't know how to fix it. Now that's happened to me with blueberries also back when I was starting to cook in the seventies. When you were just ten sporting though. Sporting though, I used to make this horrible desert was living on a farm. So I picked fresh berries and put them in a blender with some fruit and just whip it up and put that in a class of some kind. It was okay, except the blueberries did really gel as opposed to raspberries or other things. So I think that's true. They contain a lot of pectin are these really ripe blueberries or sort of ripe blueberries just add a carton. He had a choice when you go to the supermarket is just what it is. Well, I think the less ripe the fruit the more pectin there, isn't it actually. Now, we have to get to the solution part of the call, Sarah. I know I've had luck. We peering them. So giving it a second shot. You know after it set up throw it back in the blender and do it again, and maybe add a little extra liquid and see what happens is this a blueberry smoothie were the only fruit of let's say banana is blueberry or is this a mix of fruits. Are we often add bananas? Yeah. Yogurt. Well. The other thing to do is just mix it with one other fruit and use half as many blueberries, I would solve that problem because I wondered if I could add S's, maybe some lemon, juice or something. Although I haven't really tried that I think it actually isn't gonna stop Joan I've made with buttermilk, which is very acidic, and it's still sets up. So I think just blended some more or use less of it like Christus suggested with more other fruits. But if anything works, would you please let us know, Kathy. Sure. That would be so nice. Yeah. Yeah. I think a little more liquid. But also give it another world in the food processor. Okay. I'll do that. Thanks so much you guys. Okay. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher king up next. My interview and pastry chef and television personality Duff Goldman right after the break. No, the modern kitchen is nothing like when I grew up with the choices of fixtures thinks lighting a major appliances are well overwhelming, and that's why whether you're planning your dream kitchen or building your dream home. Ferguson bath kitchen enlightening gallery can help start by browsing the online inspiration gallery on Ferguson showrooms dot com and then request an appointment with your local product expert, and they worked with designers, builders and other trade professionals to meet your specifications while exceeding your expectations. Visit Ferguson showrooms dot com today to request your appointment. Robin Hood is investing at the lets you buy and sell stocks ETF's options and cryptos all commission free. While other brokerages charge up the ten dollars for every trade. Robinhood doesn't charge any commission fees. So you can trade stocks and keep all of your profits. Plus there is no account minimum deposit needed to get started. So you can start investing at any level. The simple intuitive design of robinhood makes investing easy for newcomers and experts alike view, easy to understand charts and market data and place a trait in just four taps on your smartphone. You can also use collections such as one hundred most popular with Robin Hood, you can learn how to invest in the market is you build your portfolio. Discover new stocks track your favorite companies and get custom notifications for price movements. So you've never missed the right moment to invest Robin Hood is giving listeners of Christopher Kimble's milk street, a free stock like apple Ford or sprint to help you build your portfolio. Sign up at milk street. Dot Robin, Hood dot com. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball deaf. Goldman started out as a graffiti artist and also a metal sculptor, and then became a Baker in two thousand two he opened charm city cakes in Baltimore, Maryland, his food network show ace of cakes turned into a ten season hit Duff REO doing really good. How about you? Good. I don't watch a lot of food TV maybe that's true of a lot of people who do food TV. I don't know. But your stuff stands out, man. I mean pinball machine K kung FU panda German shepherd, Hogwarts Elvis, a cat scan machine. I'll have to ask about that later. DNA strand. That's pretty cool. So you you started out cooking in Baltimore. You went to culinary is to America you worked at the French laundry. So wh what is it about cakes rather than savory cooking? The clearly appeal to you. Well, you know, it's a question on. I was actually my first sort of art. I was a graffiti artist, and then I couldn't do that anymore. As watch you're doing it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. A couple times. So my mom, and my my art teacher kind of got together. You know, they were you have to do something that's a little more legal a little less dangerous. So I tried to bunch of different stuff. And I eventually found metal sculpting was sort of my thing because it was the thing was it was like it still it was it was still exciting. You know, kind of like kind of like feta, you know, what I mean? It was still like, whoa. This is cool. I could get hurt. I could get burnt, you know, it was like a fun thing to do. So I was doing those things. And so when I got to culinary school. I took all the co theory that I then I learned doing graffiti and all the three d design that I learned doing Mel sculpture, and it just made sense cakes. Just made sense. I was just sort of good at them. Let's go back to the graffiti. So sure sure because I find that interesting is that just a function. I don't think it is. Is it just the function of seeing your stuff on a subway car? Go by what's the attraction from an purely artistic point of view? What's really cool about being? Graffiti ours. Well, I think back then if I had to sort of like give a reason for it back. I think that it's the thing about graffiti is it's very competitive. You know, you want your tag to be dope. You want your your murals to be dope. You want everything to be amazing? So when other graffiti writers, see your stuff like man that guy is amazing. Right. That guy's really good. It's not really rebelling. Like you talked to larger feet ours. It's not about like sticking it to the man or doing what you're not supposed to do or anything. Like, that's not why you do it that really doesn't come into it. Just so happens that the best canvases for getting all over town and all over the city are trains, so how where would you paint on a train? There's a yard somewhere in the middle of the night. How did you figure that? Yes. So there's there was a yard in Braintree. I grew up on Cape and sandwich. So we'd go to Braintree break. In paint trains, hopefully, be able to leave by the same hole in the fence that we made because if you're leaving any other way that means you're in the back of a cop car. And you know, because you are in the back of one if. Yeah. Yeah. Well, sometimes they give you a choice like you can either you can either get arrested or this happened one time, and I'll never do it again. But you you can empty out all the paint that you have on you onto yourself. What like, yeah. Including like your face, and your hair and everything, and you just have to you have to empty out all the paint that you have on yourself. And then they'll let you leave as you do that. You said you did that one one one time one time it was the worst. It was the worst. I'm breathing in so much pain, super gross. That's kind of like the wild west, man. So start charm city cakes in Baltimore. And then you end up with a cakes. So is the better for the cake, just a standard yellow cake? Mix of some kind that you've come up with or is it a more structural customized cake mix of some kind. Well, it's it's just a recipe, but that recipe is not made for being structured. It's not made for its firmness or anything like that. It's just made to taste good. So so when you did a cat scan machine cake, you could dig in eat that cake, and it would be delicious. What would be the point? If it wasn't. I walked I I agree. But I knew that would be the point. Why do it, you know, like what like, you know, you see a lot of people? They, you know, they make like, you know, they're making things quote unquote cakes, but it's just styrofoam covered a modeling chocolate, which is super cool, and they're amazing artists. They're really great. Artists. But it's not a cake a cake, something you eat. Okay. Now, there's also like PVC pipe and Motors and lasers and stuff. That's all part of it. But at the end of the day, you're supposed to eat that thing. So take me through the stages of this. You started with a regular cake when you were young probably right your family. What was the first step away into something more improvisational or something more creative? I mean like it was funny. Like when I went to Connor school. I wanted to be like a hotshot pastry. Chef in New York City. You know, what I mean like I wanted to like, you know, be bang pans, and, you know, really cool restaurants cake decorating was not what I wanted to do like. And like, even when we did it in school, the teachers like, dude, you're good at that. You should you should pursue it. And I was like, yeah. It's down. I don't know. Just not for me now for me and then fast forward a little bit like worked at hotels worked at restaurants is working all over the country. I moved back to Baltimore. So I competed band, and I got a job as a personal show you play bass play base. So I got a job as a personal chef. And then once my bands are really getting big enough that we were getting gigs. I quit that job. And then to pay the rent. I'd started making cakes my -partment. So I was a selling cakes. Like, I'm built a website was I stole a bunch of pictures from other awesome cake decorators put him on my website. And then and then anytime somebody. You would call like, hey, can I get that that yellowcake with the with the Brown stripe on it with the blue flower? Gadget are and then I make it. And then I take the picture down then I stole. And I put put up the picture of the one that actually made, you know, I wasn't trying to like open a cake shop, I was just trying to like, you know, pay the rent until I became rockstar which was any day now any day now, it's going to happen. And it's still. Right. Any day now. So how do you go? Okay. Now, we're gonna now we're going to get any cakes again. So how do you take me through three or four sort of cool things you figured out about making cakes like to make a huge cake? What is it you figured out that took time to figure out? Measure the door of the van before you, go the cake. It's like don't vote in your garage, right? Yes. Exactly. Well, I don't know there's a couple of things like one, I think, I honestly, I think Mike my my coolest discovery, I think was when I figured out how to create hyper realistic would grain on funding is talking about the color or the actual grain of self just creating would grain just creating a wood grain pattern on the outside of a cake. And how do you do? There's just a way. So so what you do is. You know fund is mostly sugar and sugar is high gross Skopje sucks up water. And so we do is you you make whatever, you know, whatever color would. And then take a big wide soft paintbrush, and you just get it on the cake, just paint. It you go in the same direction. You know, just like if you were painting a house up and down. It opened on you know, paint. Right. Same thing up and down up down. You can't go side to side. And then you get the whole cake wet, and then you just chill you just sit there for like twenty five seconds. And what happens is the sugar in funded starts sucking up the moisture out of the pain. So what happens is when the the sugar and the water mix, it becomes kind of syrupy and sticky. Right. And you get this like super thin layer of stickiness on the outside of the K. Then you hit it again with the paintbrush and instead of being like a dislike really smooth action because you're painting something wet on top of something dry. You're actually sliding something sticky. And as you're sliding something sticky, depending on how much pressure using. So he put like really light pressure. You're going to get a really light would grain put a little bit more pressure. And you're going to get sort of like a thicker looking grain like more with there would be like a not. And then so by alternating and just you're regulating how hard you're pushing. On the brush, and how much time you've let the paint set you can create any kind of wood grain you want. So you had the cake have the charm city cakes and Baltimore, so we were this some sort of strange requests from people coming into the store yet. Totally. So, you know, the cat scan one you're talking about there's not a lot of photographs of that one because the guy that ordered it. He wanted a patient stuck inside of it. Which actually that you actually do that. Yeah. But it was actually easier to do with the body in it because without the body we've done one without the body to there's a whole there. And so that's difficult to do creating a hole in a cake cake doesn't want to do that. So you got to figure out how to support, you know, a cake that is not baked to be structural. But as baked to be delicious. So do is it are there. Rules, like you're not allowed to use like building a building or foundation, use rebar. Right. Can you use the equivalent of rebar and doing a Keiko everything has to be edible? Is there a rule all you have to use things like rebar like you can like there are people that are purists out there that are like cakes are supposed to be cake in frosting, and that's it? That's all you're allowed to use. And those people make you know, cool looking case. But when you say, listen there are times when I need PVC pipe or. Wood or styrofoam or metal or bolts, or you know, a housing for transmission? You know, those are all things that you know, when people are ordering cakes. They want something super cool and things that have a motor in it that spins around super cool think about if you were a kid, right? Like when you and our kids like, maybe we got a cake that was like cut out in like the silhouette of like a little truck. It would be cut out of a it be flat. It'd be like happy birthday Duff on the side of it now parents and come in, and I wanna get a cement mixer Chuck. And I want the thing to actually spin. And I want you to fill that thing with jelly bean. So that you push the button, and it lifts up and jelly beans. Fall out of it. And you're like, okay, we can do that, you know, because if I was a kid, and I got a dump truck that actually moved and then spilled jelly beans out the back of it and got to eat it all that would be super cool. So last thing is let let's assume I don't know anything about making cakes and you come over. For an hour. And you're helping me out. What are some of the things you tell me about making cakes? You've learned that would be helpful. Sure, I think one is have a plan. It's really important to have a plan. You know, you got. You know, you got right down. What you're gonna do maybe draw a little picture, you know, because. Most of the time if you just sit down with a bunch of frosting in cake going, okay, I'm going to do this. It just it looks. Okay. It looks. Okay. But when you when you sit down you plan it out, I feel like you tend to get more focused results. So is this an illustration of the of the decorations? Why would you mean planet? Yeah. Yeah. You're just like, okay. I'm going to put these flowers here. I'm going to put this decoration here. I'm gonna make discolor I'm gonna put this thing on top of it just have an idea of what it's gonna look like before you start decorating cakes. Our food and food supposed to be delicious right and supposed to be beautiful. But cakes debt is literally half of what you're doing you. You know, you're it's it's made to be looked at more. So than food food. I mean now be food is made to be Instagram'd, you know. But like case, it's like, you're really making something that has made to be looked at and that. Has to convey, some sort of message something that somebody's trying to say with the cake, either happy wedding or happy birthday or happy anniversary or you're out of jail, or whatever it is. You know, the cake has to sort of convey that idea of whoever's giving into somebody to celebrate something you thought of one message to put on a cake. Welcome back. You're on parole. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Grain like dip your hand in the stream of consciousness. Thank you so much. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Thanks. That was pastry. Chef and television personality Duff Goldman. No, the most interesting part of Duff's. Life story is his career as graffiti artist he wasn't rebelling. It's just the trains and underpasses presented him with the biggest possible campuses. Duff? Goldman did pay the price. However, he was once caught and the police let him go if he simply poured paint all over himself. He did that once. And that's when he switched to baking after all, it's legal, and it tastes a lot better. Right now, I'm heading into the kitchen of milk street. The chat with Catherine smart about this week's recipe on show, chili salsa rope, Katherine how are you? I'm great Chris. How are you? Good. I just got back from Oaxaca. And of course, as soon as I go somewhere and come back and get excited and wanted to a bunch of recipes the thing, I found was they had red sauces sauces or Malays depending, and they were sort of the foundation of the cuisine. What was most interesting was it wasn't about heat. It was about flavored chilies are there for flavor. And these were not that hard to make. So I thought we come back and make a red sauce salsa Rojo here and see how hard it would be and to to make something that people could actually use it home in a variety of ways share, Chris. So it is very easy. I will tell you that much and the salsa Rojo that we're making is also really really versatile. So we start by taking those anto tilles and just toasting them up in a Skillet takes just a couple of minutes. Woodson. Ancho chili answer Tilley is a dried poblano, and it gets almost like a raisin e sweetness and deep flavor. Just like you talked about it's not only the heat that we're going for. So you toast that in a Skillet? It's gonna make your kitchen smell amazing. It's going to bring out all the flavor and aroma and that Chile, and then we're also going to soak it just to soften it up a little bit. So that it can incorporate easily into the salsa. So what else is in the sauce? It's very simple. Chris you have those ancho Chiles some garlic shallot tomato. And then we have a little bit of sugar, and there is a little bit of heat. Of course in those poblano is and the sugar really helps just cut through that. It sounds so simple dirty tricks to doing this to get the most flavor. Well, the only trick really is that we throw everything in a blender. So it's very simple. Everything gets nice and smooth release all the different flavors, and then you're good to go. And this can be used to top meets you can marinate you can just dip your chips in it. Thank you. Andrea chilies make red sauce in about fifteen minutes, and you can use it in a dozen different ways. Thank you. Thanks. Chris. You can get this recipe for oncho chili salsa robot at one seven seven milk street dot com. Christopher Kimball milk street radio coming up next shake Kenji all on the science behind. No. We'll be right back. This is most radio. I'm Christopher Kimball right now. Sarah Moulton, I will be taking more of your calls. Sarah. Are you ready? I'm sell ready. Welcome street calling. This is Carla Kayla calling from when I on ROY. How can we help you? I am curious about feeding sweet things like, hey, cts quick breads using olive oil instead of butter what kind of properties do I have to consider if I'm gonna switch. First of all there are a lot of Italian recipes, the call for oil or all voile, like they're all of will cakes olive oil sort of bunk ache. So that's typical you don't wanna use a highly flavored extroversion well from Tuscany. Yeah. You want like upon pay you want some sort of regular light olive oil. I use it doesn't have a lot of flavor because otherwise it will be overwhelming. You also find that an olive oil cake will be moisture melted, butter and a cake when the cake, cools hardens and actually gives you a drier texture than olive oil, which will stay liquid room temperature. So. You get a better texture. The last thing we've noticed is general us about three quarters as much oil as you would butter. But also depends on whether the recipe called for melted, butter or cold butter. Yes. A lot of times the cold butters in there because you're going to cremate and get Aaron with the sugar. I would only use the olive oil on a recipe that had called for melted butter to begin with. But I'm also curious are you trying to make healthier desserts is that it? Trying to say the butter for things that really matters in. And you know, maybe some every day muffins quick breads. Carrick right us oil. But that's a very moist cake, you'll probably get better results. Actually, this is an interesting call you get better moisture cakes with oil than butter general. Yes, you don't flavor, but you get moisture, right? My feeling about dessert is make the real McCoy make it the best can and really enjoy it. Don't try to make them healthy. Why thanks Julia. How trial just walked into the? Well, she is my mentor. You know, but you do get moisture product with oil depending on what the function assuming it was melted assume it was melted butter. I agree with you. Yes. There is a good reason not health related for oil. Right. So there you're talking about quick breads or bunk aches or that kind of? And if there is certain flavors like I noticed sometimes like chocolate banana bread, you know, you can use all because there's so many other flavors that you don't necessarily pay soil. Right. Exactly or sugar cookie. Yeah. Yeah. So us three quarters as much and used a very neutral oil tell you so expensive grow bust, you use a light olive oil. All right. Okay. Okay. Thanks, Carl stickier by. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling this is Jay high chair where you calling from only from Covington, Louisiana. How can we help you today? So we bought this house about a year and a half ago, and it came with the plants that we were quite sure what it was at first, and it's turned out to be Tabasco pepper plants. Oh, pretty well established one. And so it's producing several pounds of small peppers every year now. And so I'm just trying to figure out what all we can do with this. 'cause it's a lot besides making your own hot sauce and going to business competing with Tabasco. Yeah. -solutely well, what kind of food? Do you like and you like spicy food in general? Yeah, we do. They are, you know, you know, really really spicy. So that's kind of where we're not quite sure what always do them, and they're also really small. Calls. You could just throw them in L call like vodka or gin or something. And then you'd end up with a spicy vodka which you use in cooking in small amounts and you could dry tournament to a powder. Also, throw them in vinegar for that Magath Roman vinegar and pickle you could freeze them. I mean, then do what was then. Of course, do what within but use them in recipes down the road. I'm just saying you have a harvest you gotta do something with a quick before it all goes bad. So you could do the things that Christus said plus just throw some in the freezer. I would have cute little pouches and give them all away. Well, yeah. Here's how you mentioned friends, and is your Christmas gift make this infused vodka or your Spock is like that. What about the vodka? Do some beer Brune. I was gonna try something like that. That's going gonna work, and then you can just use a little tablespoon of government spoon with something. Saute stir fry right? Okay. Great. Describe the plan to me is like a typical pepper plant that may be a couple of feet high is that what it's like to be about three feet high. It's probably four feet in diameter plant to so Tabasco sauce all made by the mcilhenny family. They do it. All yes. It's controlled it's only Donald Avery island. Yeah. Everything else sauce. Yeah. It's a fun place to visit. That's pretty. Yeah. All right. Well, give that a shot, but I'd love to see Tabasco plant. Thanks for calling. Thanks for calling. Thank you. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. It's time for this week's milk street. Basic. For years of told home cooks to preheat oil in a pan before adding anything else. Now, the fought is a hot pan in hot oil is crucial for properly searing and saute Hypo Elkin also Suva role in preventing sticking, but there are times when a slower gentler approach is actually best a coal and cold oil or best for delicate fresh herbs and slowly drawing out flavors from spices coils also best for garlic in onion, slowly heating him gives you more control over the process avoids burning and also provides better flavor and cold oil is not going to make onions oily ROY onions cannot absorb oil since they are full of water through simply no place for that oil to go for more culinary chips. Visit us at one seventy seven milk street dot com. Next up will explore the world of food science, which Kenji Lopez alt-. Kenji? How are you? I'm good. How you doing good? So I'm ready to have my mind blown. So what what's on your mind? Well, this is actually a subject, I think you're pretty familiar with because you and I worked on this back in the two thousands. I think today we'll talk about no need ddo. Always an interesting thing to come back to because it's so useful. That was now refreshment or that was Mark bitten men wrote this up on the times, and it was based on a recipe, by Jim Lahey. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Base based on Jim Lahey is no need dove recipe. And I think you and I concluded that it's better to need the dill by hand for about a minute or two because it gives you more consistent results. Right. It did it did for our particular recipes, and for people who don't know, the concept, you take your flower, your yeast, your salt and your water, and you just mix it all together until forms a sort of homogeneous blob, and then you cover the bowl and just let it sit at room temperature overnight. And then the next to you kind of folded and shape it into a loaf and bake it, and you don't have to need it at all all that. We're kind of gets done for you. And we can talk about the science of that and a little bit. But it's a very easy way to make high quality sort of flavorful bread with minimal work. I think what we found in our particular. The recipe was that a lot of home cooks had difficulty working with very wet does. And these no need breads often call for a ton of water, you know, seventy percent hydration something like that. So part of our parameters was that we wanted to use a slightly lower hydration dough, and that meant that we actually had to do a little bit of needing by hand at the beginning. Just to make sure that the water is really perfectly distributed throughout and you didn't end up with these sort of dry streaks of flour in the Finnish bread. Yeah. I think also in terms of baking, you got a more consistent rise with a slight needing if you didn't need sometimes it would be it would rise on evenly. So he's a war consist. Yes, I think that was the other reason. Yeah. Exactly. So. Yeah. So maybe we can talk a little bit about the signs of how Nonni works, and then sort of what cases you'd wanna use it in. And maybe even how to adapt existing recipes. You have to become a no need method because it works for almost all kinds of breads and even batters. So the basic science behind it is that when you're kneading dough what you're really doing is you're creating gluten which. Is the network of sort of interconnected protein molecules? So when you add water to your flower these proteins become activated. And then as you need it around free. It's sort of an elastic network like a net, and that's the network that gives it structure, so as the bread in the oven bubbles of water, vapor and carbon dioxide let by the east we'll sort of expand. And then eventually as those bubbles get thin enough. They they heat up and they set, and that's what gives bread it's sort of bubbly spongy texture. So the idea with no need though, is that rather than building these Luton networks by hand through lots of physical effort what you can do is you can let the rest overnight. And there are enzymes that are naturally present. In the flower that break down some of the protein into smaller pieces at the same time. You're yeast is down there, and it's producing bubbles of carbon dioxide and as those bubbles sort of expanding grow. They do essentially all of the action of needing for you. It's it's a much slower process, but you end up developing just as much gluten you end up with a ball. Dough that is really easy to work with on top of having already been needed for you resting overnight. Also makes it easier to Brown the does. So so you end up with a more flavorful. What's neat is that that method actually it applies to not just does that are leavened with yeast, but it also applies to batters. I worked on a on a recipe for Yorkshire pudding overs, essentially a few years ago, and one of the biggest revelations I had there was letting the batter rest overnight now now Yorkshire pudding or pop overs recipes usually say half an hour or an hour. Right. That's the typical amount of time. So what happened when you rested overnight? So first of all it rises better it definitely Brown's better. And it gets more of a depth of flavour similar thing happens, and this I'm sure you've tried yourself with cookie batter. So if you let chocolate chip cookie dough rest overnight as the New York Times recommended a number of years back. It makes it pretty dramatic difference in how it tastes. You get a sort of more rich. Butterscotch e Brown flavor that way than if you just bake it fresh this wouldn't work though with the baking powder baking soda Levin would it because when they are in contact with liquid. They start to react. So like pancake batter doesn't get better after half an hour. Right. Panky better does not get better. After having modern baking powder is double acting so releases gas when you first mixed with water, but then releases gas again as you heat it. So you can still get some leavening out of there, and you can kind of compensate by just adding extra. But yeah, it doesn't it doesn't exactly work for most baking powder being sort of recipes. But you know, what is delicious is yeast did pancakes waffles, which overnight if you wanna translator existing recipe to no need recipe. What you wanna do just calculate the moisture content in there? So that is you take the weight of the flour in the recipe, and you figure out what percentage of that is the weight of all the liquids that you're adding whether they be water or juice, or eggs, or whatever it is. You wanna get? A ratio there. So as long as the ratio of water to flour is at least around sixty five percent, or so you can just mix everything together and let it rest overnight, and it'll it'll bake up really nicely. The next day if it's any less than that. Then you want to do a little bit of minor needing just to get rid of all the dry pockets of flour. And then again, just cover it. Let it rest and it works. It works with essentially anything it works with enrich does like brioche. It works with a bag. Does a worse almost any kind of dough? You can think of long as hydration is right. It'll work. So your next book is going to be lazy man's bread. Evidently, we. It's useful to know these things because there are times when I just get the urge for pizza, and it's like if you know, I can make my pizza dough in the food processor, and it'll come out in reading a few hours. Well, that's useful. But I also know I can just take the same ingredients mix them up in a bull by hand. And all of the next day. So let's sort of manage your time. According to your schedule knowing these different techniques for making dough one last question. Yeah. So what about letting stuff sit in the refrigerator? This is always a room temperature this method. So no need requires room temperature because in the refrigerator, though becomes too stiff so they used actually won't need it. But what you're talking about is cold for mentoring, which is something you can do after your does already form. So whether you form it in the stand mixer food processor by hand or through no need once. The dough is formed you can take it put it in as a block bag throw it in the fridge got. And it'll it'll continue to improve over the course of about three days or so once once it starts to get four to five days old, usually you'll get sort of offer Roma's it'll smell booze. And it won't rise properly. But it'll improve up to about three days. Most does so fix it. And forget it throwing the bowl mix. It come back. The next day. Then you could make off your bread Kenji, particularly useful. I'm gonna go home and makes them pizza dough and have it tomorrow. Thank you. All right. Jake Kenji Lopez all tees chief culinary visor for Syria seats, and also author of the food lab. No need bread was introduced in two thousand six and New York Times article by Mark bitten who offered a recipe by Jim laid at least that's what I thought. Well, Wikipedia says it was first described nineteen ninety nine cookbook called no need to need by Suzanne Dunaway. Other sources say that Nonni bread had already been known in Italy long before the late nineties Jesper white. Who's the author of New England cooking once told me that there's nothing new in the World Food. Everything has already been tried somewhere. Some time everything old is new again. That's it for this week show if you tune into lighters wanna listen again, please download milk street radio and apple podcast Spotify. Wherever you get your podcast. Please don't forget to subscribe to the show that way you'll get every episode downloaded to your phone each week. If you wanna learn more about milk street, please head to one seven seven milk street dot com there you can find recipes. Subscribe to a magazine watch the new season for television show or order latest cookbook milk street, Tuesday nights. We're also on Facebook. Christopher Kimble's milk street on Instagram and Twitter at one seventy seven milk street. We'll be back next week. Thanks as always for listening. Christopher kindles milk street radio is produced by milk street in association with w h executive producer, Melissa balti-. Now senior audio editor Melissa Allison producer any sense of off associate producer Jackie Noack production. Assistant Stephanie cone and production. Help from Debbie. Paddock senior audio engineer Douglas sugar additional editing from Vicky Merrick said Lewis and Haley faker and audio mixing from J F Atlantic public media in woods hole. 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Duff Goldman Christopher Kimball Kenji Lopez Chris Sarah Moulton Baltimore apple Bon john Kim chef United States Christopher Kimble Barnard South Korea Korea Robin Hood Christus Jim Lahey Nonni New York Times
Wine Label Revolution: Goodbye Chateau, Hello Dancing Frog!

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

50:56 min | 2 years ago

Wine Label Revolution: Goodbye Chateau, Hello Dancing Frog!

"Hi, this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading this week's podcast. You can go to our website milk street radio dot com for each recipe or one recommendations and updates about her cooking school and live events at milk street. Here's this week show. This is most your radio from Pierre Rex I'm your host, Christopher Kimball. If you go to a dinner party, the wine label might be the only labeled object on the table. Nothing else would have a packaging or label, but the wind and the wine labels, their people. They gravitate pick it up maybe during a lull in the conversation. They'll just spin it around, and it's just something to get people talking. That was an excerpt from her story with reporter Andre so Hera, he explores the science of wine labels, and how a new wave of designs may be influencing. What consumers are drinking right now. It's my interview with restaurateur in ward winning opera singer Alexander Smalls. He's been called the father of southern revival cooking. He's teamed up with j j Johnson to explore afro Asian cooking in their new book between Harlem and heaven. Alexandra. How are you? When I'm great good morning. Good morning. Let's start at the beginning this book between Harlem and heaven has an interesting premise and the premises. You want to go out and cook like your grandmother? But in this case, you're talking about it very different culinary heritage than I think I've ever experienced before. And the notion is that after the civil war in America, a lot of workers came from Asia, and they were migrant workers and their cooking mixed with the African American experience, and you had this sort of hybrid of west Africa America, India, the far east, and that's that's an interesting notion. I've never considered that. So is there a big tradition in the African American culinary history of mixing the far east in India with the cooking of west Africa. And then the cooking of. The south. Well, let me say that. That's certainly a part of the story. But actually, it's even deeper and Fahd reaching than that, this is really a celebration of the food of the African diaspora how through slavery Africa change, the global culinary conversation. It has been a concentrated effort to follow the slave route of the five continents. Where slaves were found even dating back as far as China the song dynasty in the fifteen hundred. It's really about probably a dark and somewhat horrific part of our history that I went looking for the silver lining through culture and culinary experience. So I was talking about how the cooking in America change as a result of the diaspora. You're also saying it worked in reverse that they'd also changed the conversation around the world. Yes. Yes. She has. Interestingly enough, the part that you highlight it, essentially when slavery was abolished, you know, we had a lot of migrant workers from China and India Asia to come and do many of the jobs that African slaves did more concentrated Lii in the Caribbean. You know, places like Jamaica where you had more of a Chinese implants and Trinidad Tobago where there was a strong Indian influx. And you know, this whole concept of organic fusion that happened culturally and culinary was really extrordinary. Yeah. I thought it was made. It's almost mind-blowing because you you put things together. I never would have thought. I mean, you have you know, Joel off which is the chicken onion dish from Senegal suey, and Debbie sort of the meat on a stick that are grilled or west Africa Rahman, Don. Well, if you think about Brazil, for example, the largest population of Africans outside of Africa in Brazil, coincidentally, the largest population of Japanese, that's Japan are in Brazil. I'm four years, and and and there in lies a coming together of culinary highlights. So let's talk about Harlem a little bit back in the twenties thirties when there was a real Rene Saenz of culture there. There was a lot of little details in your book, which I really found interesting. Sugarhill could just tell us what? Sugarhill was in Harlem the place. Haarlem was an interesting collective of various folks from the African diaspora, particularly as you mentioned during the renaissance, but out of that sort of renaissance, you know, you had extrordinary influences in culinary influences from the diaspora all over the world. You also had this. Collision of art and music that came together. And it wasn't interesting time for African American writers who were being featured in finding their voices. And of course, Holum was a fire with with jazz. I mean, I had the opportunity with my business partner, which at Parsons some six years ago to reopen minton's playhouse, which essentially was the birthplace of bebop bebop was one of those crazy music concepts that seem to have no boundaries. It was a hot belly of aliveness if you will and blackness and and elevation and a very exciting time and Harlem support it that whole thing. So you had neighborhoods like sugar hill where a lot of the elite African Americans lived and posture a climate of prosperity and an excitement and interest. It was really a hot time in the city of Harlem, it just seems like such a wonderful time in place. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. The recipes. So here's my here's my for. I'm gonna ask you a tough question. Now your corn bread recipe. And I I've been yelled at by many southern cooks who say do not put sugar in my corn bread. Right. And that's the difference between the south and the north if some in Boston, you eat corn bread is like dessert, but you've got a bunch of sugar in your cormorant. So is that a New York City corn bread? Is that the corn bread? Your grandmother used to make what wise they're sugar in your corporate. This is my first question. Well, interestingly enough, I have as many recipes for corn bread as I have socks, and I have a lot of socks. And it stems again from organic, cultural infusions and people, for example, my grandmother on. My father's side would have never put sugar in a corn. Pratt coming from the low country. Charleston Beaufort in the Gulf islands on the other hand, my grandmother, and my mother who come from upcountry had no problem with sugar corn bread also has its own history. Going from a almost corn bread pound cake to corn bread that was made totally with no flour. But all corn meal and no Shogo. So we put in the book because the whole idea is not to create authentic traditional recipes. But rather? Sort of interpretation of recipes of of the diaspora, and this particular coin bed was well received at the restaurant. So we went with that recipe, but I can give you some more. Socks to Iran. There's another recipe, you, you you Guinea hen you used cinnamon, which is very typical in lots of places. Cinnamon is often used with meat, but I at sounded like a really interesting recipe to that experience comes from a north African experience Morocco, Tunisia, even as far up as Lebanese when I was in college. I had these Lebanese friends who always put cinnamon and their fried chicken. And it was curious to me, and they trace their roots back to North Africa. And so in studying the son of the spice highways of North Africa. And those influences the spices that from India Asia that now are alive and well in South Africa cinnamon was used with poetry in interesting ways. And I thought it translated very well. To prod Guinea hen, and of course, the Guinea hen is a west African bird, the French captured, and essentially we associate the French with Guinea hen more than we do Africa. So it was important to me to bring it back not so much as an exotic feature, but something that was an is a big pot of the west African culinary experience. So you've obviously talked about two things we talked about two things music and cooking, and the obviously go together in your mind, and they go together for a lot of people. How do they go together? Well, you know. I would say music and food are the soundtracks of my life, and I've kind of created a life in the container of those two artistic disciplines. You know, when you come up, and you grow up in a small town, you essentially get from one meal thinking about the next in my family, our lives evolved around those three meals a day and the preparation of them, and we also because my grandfather was a city farmer. He had a half acre backyard that was turned into a garden every spring and often I would I would work in that garden, and I would sing because singing made me very happy, and I was happy child. So I was able to take all of that and continue evolving as an adult, and I still sing and cook. Telecom house. Nicola? That was Alexander Smalls author of Harlem and heaven, you can subscribe, listen to most radio anytime typecast new shows are able on Friday, and I tuned Stitcher tuning Google play and Spotify. Just subscribe and get all of our shows downloaded right to your phone. Right now. My co host Sara Moulton, I will be taking your calls. Sarah is of course, the star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television. Also, author of the book home cooking one a one Sarah are you awake? Are you ready to go? Chris. I am ready to do this. Welcome to milk street. Who's gone? Yes. This is Elizabeth chilling has stopped injure yet done in very Middlebury is not far from my farm. Lovely town, by the way. Yes. Well, I have a question for you. I've been trying to serve toast for at cocktails, which I find far nicer than nibbles than crackers for nibbles. But I been totally unsuccessful in making the toast in advance on I read online the two toasted. And then you put it in a bag and suck up the excess air with straw. I've tried that it works for half an hour, then the toast, always becomes limping unpleasant. And I've tried this with all kinds of bread, and I would very much like to know what you have to say in this topic sucking out the. Okay. That's a new one on me. Well is like Brusca you could use three fifty oven sliced bread brush with olive oil salts little pepper. Maybe some spice if you like put in the oven on Iraq on a baking tray and let it get really Brown. And that way, you'll really dry it out. Oh, the toaster is not going to get enough of the moisture out. Certainly try that or do a whole bunch. If you thinking more brisket just do a whole bunch in the oven soon before the guests arrive, and maybe you don't brand quite as much, but a long slow moderate oven. We'll get rid of more moisture than a toaster. I just say leave it, I'm covered even I mean, what's the problem with doing that? What do you think if use the oven method leaving uncovered? Yeah. Yeah. Have you been doing it in the toaster? I've been putting it under the broiler because I don't have a Tuesday the tiny kitchen. That's not going to the Heat's too high. You're not going to have enough time to get to the center of the bread to really evaporate the moisture. Right. So helpful. Thank you. Okay. By the way, I agree with you. I think homemade toast is really nice so good for you. Great. Thank you Bye-bye. All right. Thank you. Welcome to milk street. Who's on the line? Hi, this is Alyssa from Sydney, New York. Hi Elissa from Sydney. How can we help you today? I have a question about scallions. I have a couple of recipes that I use quite often that have scallions is one of the ingredients. But when I'm working to the recipe, they never identify which part of the skelly into us. So how do I know which part to use? Lemme ask you what nationality recipe as one's a Middle Eastern recipe with philophical and the other one that I make quite a bit is a Thai chicken pizza. So the scallions are topping. So put on in the end, you know, I generally feel like a the white is a little more pungent and does better with little bit of cooking to sort of tame it the greens for me. I usually chop them and finish with it. You know, they're sort of more grassy not that. They don't have a little bit of a peppery bite. Chris. What do you think? The whites. I would definitely cook a little bit. I mean, there was a great story about a cooking school teacher. Who Murray Cunningham? Yes, I once a month. She's to give a free cooking class just to keep her hand in the game. And she asked a student of this question and sometimes referred to as green onions skies. And the students said they always threw away the white part because the recipe said green fleshy thought they just referred to the top. So it's a very good question. I think the whites are usually used for some cooking, and the greens can be used as a topping later or not have to be looked when I write a recipe, I always indicate and when I worked at gourmet we did to say whites with, you know, half inch of the light green part or we'd say whites and greens or just the white. So that's bad recipe writing to and that was my other part of the question once you I think answered, but when you talk about the greens I wondering if like the light green. Part versus the darker green part which is kinda dryer if that would make a difference as well as it just whatever's closest to the white is going to have the most strong flavor. Yes. Are very dark and slightly withered and dry. I would just cut those off though, make sure that they're in good shape. In terms of the flavor profile. I'd say moving from the bottom to the top that the white is going to be the most pungent, and then the light green will be slightly less. So and then the top part is more of a grassy sort of peppery onion taste. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks elissa. This is mostly radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. If you have a cooking failure question or a complaint, or if you just want to try to stump us, give us a ring at eight five five four to six ninety four three that's eight five five four to six ninety four three or to send us an Email. We'd love to hear from you at questions at most g radio dot com. Welcome to milk street. Who's calling? This is Linda from Los Gaddis, California. How are you? Hi. I'm fine. Good. How can we help you? I was at a dinner party and the person served Olympia, gene. And it was really delicious. So I was thinking about buying it Titian cooker in looking over the internet. There are many models. But several of the reviewers said that they had a real problem with them cracking. Even though they soak them and used to heat diffuser, they still cracked and my question is is it worth spending seventy five dollars and something that could possibly crack. And is there a way to avoid the cracking? I noticed you have one in your store. I mean, doesn't crack if you follow the directions you could use it in a low oven. Yeah. Probably would be safer than putting it on the stove stove that would probably alleviate any potential cracking. I think the real question is does it cook better or not the theory is the shape collects moisture in the top which comes back down on the food earth and wear in general, I know that Jose Andres, for example, the chef out of Washington loves cooking earth, and where he just feels good about it. And also, I think it retains heat more evenly. So if you're going to cook, somebody low and slow and wears a nice way to cook with the gentler way to cook. So yeah, I like it, but you can certainly use a Dutch oven. You can do that. I mean, that's fine. I haven't cooked a lot inattention. I have used earth aware though to say do a chicken in the oven. But I do it in the oven. Just because it makes me nervous. But let me ask you question. Linda in your taste memory was this lamb like really over the top and different in some way. There were several other things in with it. So it was I think he had some apricots in sweet. So it was a little bit on the sweet side. And everybody's a dinner party was raving about how delicious it was. Maybe because the flavors were so intertwined. Morocco a few years ago, and I took a lesson touching cookery. And what I found. Interesting was that the individual flavors of the spices, the preserve eleven and the olives everything stayed intact and separate during the cooking. And so what you got at the end was not a fusion it was more of individual flavors staying Dejan jer etcetera remaining individual. And so how tasted it what I tasted with a lot of different things at one time. And that's why when this particular cook made it he didn't saute the onions he cooked them for maybe two minutes and oil in the bottom of the pan through the chicken and the chicken was not Brown. So there's no development of fond or you mommy, like, you would infringe cooking. That's why Sarah's looking at me frowning, but because they want to keep those individual components. So one of the things about touching do like is that it gives you lots of different things going on your mouth or one time rather than sort of a classic beef stew. Lamb to where everything's fusion cooking sort of the opposite. Okay. But using Sweden save recourse, which they do in many towns, obviously. Two. I noticed that some are glazed inside. And some are not glazed does that make a difference? I've seen or glazed on the outside not on the inside and most earth unware cookery is not glazed on the inside. Like, the ones Jose has. I would prefer to use. When knock glazed on the inside. Personally, you always worry about the paint used in the clays. Right. Whether or not you by Tashin, you can certainly make attention to prep is relatively easy. Go for. Thank you, very, much pleasure. Okay. Linda. Thanks. Thank you. You're listening to mostly radio. I'm Christopher Kimmel coming up next my conversation with Andre so harra. I'll be speaking with him about wine labels will be right back. No. The modern kitchen is nothing like what I grew up with the choices of fixtures lighting, major places are well overwhelming. And that's why whether you're planning your dream kitchen or building your dream home. Ferguson bath kitchen lighting gallery can help. Start by browsing the online inspiration gallery on Ferguson show, rooms dot com. And then request an appointment with your local product expert, and they work with designers, builders and other trade professionals to meet your specifications, well exceeding your expectations. Visit Ferguson showrooms dot com today to request your appointment. This is most your radio, Christopher Kimball. Does the design of a wine label influence how you buy whine this week? I chat with Andre so Hera, who's researched wine labels wine stores and how people actually purchase wine. You spend some time on the subject of wine labels, how to companies decide on the design. How people who walk into a wine store select the wines based on the label, and perhaps even how lame Ling has changed the industry. So why do we care about one labels? Well, I think we care because oftentimes a lot of go into wine stores. We we look at a giant wall full of labels full of designs. And we just make a guess we don't know what exactly we're looking at. We maybe we don't know much about the vintage a lot of us are are uneducated wine buyers, but enthusiastic wine drinkers, and it it just hit me that you know, we all had had to become kind of accidental design critics when deciding what wind by and I just wanted to find out more about what was going on behind those labels. What exactly was going on in in the minds of the people making them and in the minds of the people buying it. So the average consumer walks into a store that sells wine. What do they do? Do. They ask. Ask for help. They don't wanna talk to people. They just look at labels. How do they make a decision? Well, I think that, you know, ink totally when I spoke to people I knew and kind of watched people I knew fine wine. I also spoke to a wine buyer at a large store here in New York and a lot of people. They don't ask for help. They feel a little intimidated asking for help the me they can't even pronounce the name of the wine. They're interested in or the name the wind the bottle. So they'll they'll look for something in a price point. They like and they'll look for some kind label. It speaks to them. And they'll grab it. They'll hope for the best. So how does the label speak to them? I mean, what is it? They look like the colors the design the name of the grape. Or, you know, the the blend country of origin. Does all of that matter? None of it matters. Well, that's that's I think kind of exactly where the tension lies right now between these new designers, and these kind of old school winemakers and y. Unlabelled designers. It's because it's the Cy DEA that it's backed up by at least one or two studies that said that, you know, baby boomers were much more interested in information labels, labels that talked about the vintage and the country of origin and millennials are much. We're interested in a label. The kind of told a story that kind of made them feel a certain way because what I would say is that oftentimes you don't know what you're drinking. You don't know. What what something tastes like? But you know, what something looks like. And you kind of interpreted as an old label with a a Chateau on it and a cream colored label with a script. Does that say that it's something is classic and something is authentic. Or does this say something stodgy and old and unintrusive? So these their new labels and old labels. And I guess there's an art to making wine label so you spoke to a similar way turn label designer gyco. Andre MAC, and what did he have to say about what a wine label needs to do. Yeah. Andre. Amac is a fascinating guy because he worked at per se in New York, he is has this kind of culinary and finding background, and he he became a winemaker and his approach because he said when I spoke to him he said something to the effect of that would cost like twenty five thousand dollars to commission label, and he he told me at that time, I didn't have twenty five thousand dollars for my entire enterprise. And so what he did was that he just designed his own labels, and you just designed labels that kind of just spoke to him that we're fund that were playful that we're minimalist and for him the approach was that he's trying to communicate these labels stark. They're black and white. They seem simple too simple. But the that he he wanted people to say, oh, these labels are simple. But all of my work and effort is going into the wine, and the other thing he was thinking about with labels in contrast to the the chateau's and the scripts and the cream colored seals was this idea that like he wants something that pops off the shelf that he understands. That people are just going there scanning, and he wants something that they can grab. And he's hoping that his labels. Do do that. Here's what he told me. You know, interesting thing about labels. I was selling wine in Chinatown with a sales rep, and they have these huge Chinese, weddings. But they didn't taste any of the wine. So we showed up with the bag for the wine. We don't taste the wine. He goes we want to take a bottle, and they have this huge wall. And they put all the wine up on this wall. And the bride comes in the groom come in. And they choose wine from this wall. And I remember talking the guys I I'm to tell you something serious because Joe labels. They look they probably won't buy because they cheap. They want something with a shot with fancy labels. And so those people were judging something off label that looked like it was expensive and maybe was crap because they're still shopping on price point. But at least the label of good. Whereas my whole thing is the opposite approach like we wanna make really good wine and not so good labels. So. Oh, you interviewed a wine store owner and showed her sort of, you know, newfangled label design and what she say. Yes. So what I did was I I asked learn Asensio, she's a head wind buyer Astra winning spirits, and I showed her a label from this company called barrel and ink and just a backup barrel and inker are doing their California based company that are pairing winemakers with graphic designers and the that the graphic designer would make their own interpretation on a label. I spoke to the head of barrel and ink Corey Miller and one of the designers Eric Myrna, and he has a label for wine and the label says, rain or shine. You're always on my side. And it's just in these big splashy letters, these pinks and these bulky, bouncy letters, and so showed it to Lorenzo to see kind of what he was interested in the store that she works at there's much more traditional labels, much more conservative, and she just dismiss it out of hand. Is that a wine? Awful awful. Is it the color of the it's everything? I mean, I didn't think it was a wine. I thought it might be. I don't know some mixers something like that. It's it's yeah. It's not for me. I'm I'm very traditional in my look to I do carry some outlandish labels. But I draw the line when this looks very kitschy too. And it almost looks like it was a brand that was made for export. That doesn't really have any sort of compelling story, rain or shine. I mean, what on earth is that? So I think you've found the wine cellars preferred traditional labels, but how do they feel about labels in general? I mean, it's just there to give you the information you need to make a decision or does the design of a label have any impact from their point of view on how to choose one. Well, it's definitely something that I don't know if I would say it's conflict, but it's certainly attention because yes, they need that label to give them the information. Maybe they don't have a previous relationship with the wind buyers on the that information about the location, and the vintage and many other things but wine buyers also just have to be about what the label looks like on the shelf. And when I was at a big wine store Esther went and spirits. Yeah. Absolutely. They were worried about how can I sell this wine? How can I get people to pick it up and buy it and not have to hand sell it to them when what lorraina told me was that, you know, sometimes people's eyes glaze over and they said, all right? I just want the wind, and I want to get in and get out and go to my dinner party here. Llerena? Well, ideally, I wanna wine that has some sort of a history or story, and it can be a new winery. But there better be something. Interesting for me to be able to tell my customer. I don't need kids. I don't need cupcakes. I don't need you know, puppy dogs on the front label. I need something that's relevant and kind of respectful the winery. It's coming from. There's been some talk about the emotional wine label what you're trying to convey. Is there something particular about wine emotionally trying to convey as opposed to a bar of chocolate? A Cup of coffee bottle of milk is a trust. Is it excitement is at flavor is it sourcing is use is a scarce commodity. It's rare when they design labels. They have specific emotional impact in mine of certain kind. I do think wine labels do have an emotional impact. And I think that it's for a couple of reasons one, you know, as I was researching this world of line. I just found that theme over and over again about trust and about how much people are worried about being deceived by whine or being just just almost tricked by whether a wine is good or not whether it's worth the price. What's really in? It can you really taste these things. And there's almost the joke. Stereotype of the the the Somalia, you know, detecting notes of things or hints of of flavors that the regular drinker. Just has no idea what that's about. And so I think that the label does play into that, especially newer labels. Which are I think we're labels are kind of coating, and they're kind of hinting and winking at this idea that you know, wine should not be this high flute and thing, but can be something that can be simple and straightforward, and that's maybe emotional peel as if to say, I'm with you. I'm I understand what you want. And I'm not here to trick you so so another words confidence. Yeah. Trump's. Yeah. Confidence and trust. I guess the other element of it is just that. When I spoke to Corey Miller, and Eric Myrna vich there, you know, he's done graphic design projects for Google and Facebook and other companies, and I think that a modern designers, you know, very openly understand that the the mood that you're in the the way that you approach something from the visual aspect is going to influence how you consume it. How you enjoy it. And that makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, I think about you know, if you go to a dinner party the wine label might be the only labeled object on the table. Nothing else would have a packaging or label. But the wine in the wine labels, their people. They grab it. They pick it up maybe during a lull in the conversation. They'll just spin it around, and it's just something to get people talking, and you have some tape from Eric Myrna vich, let's hear that. Now, if this was ever on a table that I wanted this to be allowed enough and a dark room that who ever was sitting in the table next to you. It would bring their attention. It would bring attention to your friends surrounded by the table, and maybe even your your server so after going through this and the design in consumer buying habits, etc. What was the one thing that really surprised you the most one thing that I thought was really interesting was just how these two different groups. And granted there their groups that have vested interest. You know, just just the kind. Of battle that they're locked in. Because for wine buyers who know the world of European wines. Well, and they respect tradition, and they, you know, they have a certain worldview in their head, these modern labels are marketing gimmick. So if they see a really off base label, they'll just throw it with the labels that have cupcakes on them, the labels had a puppy dogs on them. And then for the people who are trying to break the mold who are modernists. It's exactly the opposite. It's those labels with the chateau's and the script and the cream colored seals those are the things that are tricking you. So just seeing the fact that you're looking at two very separate things. And you're seeing the same logic applied to the opposite of them. I thought that was so interesting another thing that I thought was so interesting. There's this wine, and it's called biotic frog. And it's just this absurd. Like, cartoon wine. It would almost looks like a cartoon from a comic book, and it's this big silly frog on the label and the one two hundred fifty dollars, and when I spoke dramatic about it. He said. Something. So interesting said if that wine cost twenty five dollars to one would ever buy it, everyone who was a gimmick, and it's absurd, but because that wine cost two hundred fifty dollars you've got consumers who know? Well, this you know, these people must have a lot of confidence in their wine to put something so bold absurd on it. And I don't know something about that. That's absurd frog. And the two hundred fifty dollars sticker is just it just sticks out to me well heeled saying the teak this this, right? If it doesn't sell double the price. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. That was producer Andres O'Hara. Boeing wine is like buying shoes by mill you never know if they're going to fit so consumers rely on other clues to make a bind decision. The wine store clerk, the new wine. And of course, the label that makes me think that buying wine is like speed dating. You have so little time together so much information. So maybe buying the wine with the big frog on the label is not such a bad idea after all. Right now, heading the kitchen milk street, the chat with editorial director, James Hirsch about this week's recipe jam how are you? All right. How are you? You got back from Rome recently. And you brought back some great pasta recipes catch you peppy carbonaro, which you also came back with a recipe where they turn broccoli into pasta sauce, which sounds I don't know unappealing. Interesting slice dubious. What's going on? Yeah. You know, broccoli sauces, a hard, sell, and to be honest when I down it didn't strike me that I was eating broccoli sauce. It looked like pesto bright green light. It looked rich coated the pasta. Really well. And it looked nothing like, broccoli, frankly. And then I took a bite, and it was light. It was bright. It was fresh and it tasted of broccoli. But it wasn't heavy like you expect with broccoli. And it was a completely different way of goading pass. It was delicious. So the obvious question is in Rome. There broccoli may be tastier than the broccoli here. Right. Well, I. No that. So what was different was that? They were using a part of the broccoli that we usually don't ever even see never mind. Use the broccoli leaves. They were blanche ING those and then directing them to make the sauce now here in the United States. The leaves are stripped off before the broccoli ever gets to the grocery store. And so our work around was using the stocks because we found that if we peel the stocks and blanche them in period, then we got that same sort of light flavor and the same sort of creamy texture, but you don't get a lot of color. No. We did have to find a work around for that. And because we lose some of the freshness of flavor and color when we get rid of leaves. And so the work around was actually pretty simple, baby. Spinach leaves blanche them for about twenty seconds. And then throw them in the blender with the broccoli stocks gave us that color and flavor back, so broccoli stocks. Brockley leaves some pasta cooking water is about it in a cheese. Little bit of hot pepper came together. Fast. Little lemon zest brighten the flavors, and that's so while you're cooking the pasta. You can make broccoli sauce jam. Thank you very much weight to use broccoli at home. On pasta. Thanks, and you can find this recipe at one seventy seven milk streak dot com. I'm Christopher Kimball. Inya listening to milks being radio coming up more of your culinary questions to my co host Sarah Bolton, we'll be right back. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball right now time to take some calls with my beloved co host remote and Sarah ready. I'm so ready. Chris welcome to milk street. Who's calling? Hi, this is Elizabeth dripping springs. Hello, elizabeth. How can we help you? So I have a question about being dried beans, right? Well, I one of the people who had become obsessed with my insta- pot. And I love the idea pressure cooking being but every time I look it up the debate of whether or not be keeps coming up. So I want to know your opinion on both digital and cooking value of do. We still be fully cooked him or not. Yes. Well, women. No. The only reason to soak beans if you're using a pressure cooker is that I will use two tablespoons assault, and they cups a water Cup of beans, and you will have taste your beans because the salt will get into the beans and you'll have more flavor. It will not affect because the pressure cooker does such a great job with beans. Under high pressure is not really gonna affect the texture that much. So you Sarah's giving me doesn't the salt help to soften the skin to. Yeah. It does. But in a pressure cooker pressure. Does a great job. So you can get away with it. And the whole point. It's not soaking. You're saying the pressure cooker waivers so much better. When you true, you're going to get much more player with salt. So it really I mean, it's very quick with the pressure cooker. But if you soak them, they only take forty seven minutes now, you know, if you haven't soaked him, they take about twenty to thirty five minutes and the pressure. Yes. Really? Absolutely. No. Yes. That's crazy. I know and I'll tell you. Here's the interesting thing is also it depends on where you get your beans, and how strong they've been hanging out because if you've got a bag of beans that sat and you may not know, even if you pick it up at a supermarket how long it's been sitting there if those beings have sat there for a year, they could take so much longer. So anytime, I see chart of how long dried beans take to cook. Whether it's traditionally or in a pressure cooker, I just don't believe it. You just have to try it out your short answer to her simple question is for flavor purposes. It's better to soak them in to tables was the salt cups of water overnight. But in terms of texture you can get away with an appreciator. Yes. You. That apply to all kinds of dry beans black. Yes. And as I'm sure you know, you have to add some oil to the water. So that it doesn't jam up the drainage spot. Yeah. So there you go salting and soaking overnights usually really makes it I think it makes a huge difference. Elizabeth thank you so much Lisbeth. Thank you. Okay. You're listening to mostly radio. I'm Christopher Kimball. Give us a ring any time at eight five five four to six nine eight four three one more time a five five four to six ninety four three or citizen Email questions at mill street radio dot com. Hello who's calling and how can we help you? My name's Dominic from Chicago. Hi, Dominic from Chicago by questions, I've been using the better than yon for, you know, better than blend chicken base whenever recipe calls for, you know, a sauce or to glaze a pan. You know, I just been microwaving the amount of water I need and then whisking in the bedroom. Bouillon and my question was I was wondering if I could use substitute me so paste instead because it's in the refrigerator usually right next to it. And they only use it when it's called for and recipes, which isn't that often? I think so too three kinds there's sort of the white me, so which is a little sweeter and lighter. There's a mid range of Brown paste, which is mid bodied. And then there's a very dark dark red meat, so paced, you can find they also go up and saltiness, and you doing something with be for example, you might use the color. Yeah. But I think that's a great idea. It's like an instant Hamami bomb too. And we do that with soups stews me. So as base hot water water. I think everybody should be using me. So more recipe calls for like just glazing the pan, which chicken stuck. It's not gonna alter in by the way, the better than billions what I use. I love it because it stays fresh 'fridgerator. You don't have to throw out the box or the can after us half of it. The chicken base. I think is very good. But you could use me. So absolutely sure would keep in mind, though, the saltiness factor. So don't add a lot of other salt to the recipe because the media will add a fair amount of salt. I'm going to try it for the next couple of weeks and try out the different styles because the very different, but they're all good. All right. Thanks for calling. Thank you very much. This is radio. I'm your host Christopher Kimball right now. It's time for this week's Millstreet basic. On a recent trip to car Senegal discovered. Rough. That's our f it's a mix of parsley scallions, garlic salt lime juice incest with the added punch of Habanero peppers. Roth can be used straight as garnish for roasted or grilled meats as stuffing for fish tossed with blanche sauteed or roasted vegetables or blended into vinaigrette for salad to make Roth use a food processor at two cups flatly parsley for chopped scallions to peeled, garlic. Cloves habanero. Chili stemmed and seeded one teaspoon. Graded lime zest and a quarter Cup lime juice process until smooth for salad dressing at a quarter Cup of neutral oil. You can find this recipe at milk street radio dot com. Next up speak with Stephen news about a very simple topic, which is wine closures, Steven. How are you? Good. Chris. I see a multiplicity of bottles and singularity of glasses. Well, yeah. This is going to be kind of dry run. You might say Chris because you don't really get to taste much wine in the segment terrific. We go any talk about wine closures and closure systems. And this is something that I get questions about all the time in the one corner at from GIO, most of the wines are sealed with natural cook. But there are some exceptions and customers want to know mainly whether the way that the bottle is sealed has anything to do with the quality of wine in the bottle so school over the options here that winemakers have to close bottles. Let me ask you a question. I which is why was natural cork. The I I assume way of closing securing a bottle of wine. That's all they had. Or there was a specific reason for the core. Well, first of all it goes way way way way back. We know that the Greeks and Romans used coke to seal bottle with pitch and coke. The point of this. Of course is. That oxygen in large amount to the enemy of one. So in order to make wine last in a barrel or eventually in a bottle it needs to be sealed up. So that you don't have easy access for air into the bottle. That's the whole point. Is there any breathing with a cork? This is one of the main benefits. Let's talk about what you want from any kind of closure technology in a bottle of what you want to be able to keep the air away from the wine. But you don't want it to exclude every bit of air cork does a really good job of admitting just the tiny amount of oxygen that enables wine to mature age nicely. Most quality wine in the world is sealed with natural cork. And it does a beautiful job. There is at least one major drawback. Big problem for the industry is something called cork taint it's caused by organic try Claro NSO. It's produced by a fungus that can get. Into the cork and it produces what everybody calls a corked wine. And I just happen to have opened a bottle with turned out to be cooked. And I had a long. Thank you. Stick your nose. This is the tasting. I get a sniffing, right? Yeah. The estimate that three to five percent of all wine suffers real quick date. This is what has driven the search for alternative closures. And we've got a couple of them to look at today. One of them is supposed to behave just like natural cork, but it's synthetic and you can see sort of white plastic. So I'm going to open this. I don't think of ever purchased the bottle with synthetic court. Is that just because I have luck of the draw. Or is this a common thing now, unless expensive wine is you're more likely to encounter a plastic than in wine. That's very fancy so we're gonna pull this out. So there's your plastic. Look, it's kind of hard plastic. It's compressibility. But it's really firm. It does a good job of solving the problem, but people don't really like it because number one plastic coke seems kind of cheesy and number two. They're almost impossible to get into the bottle. Once you've drawn them out. If you buy a bottle line for fifteen bucks is the cork five cents of that. If it's a plus to cork, it's a very small percentage of the price pennies, but a real cork natural coke can get quite expensive. Why maker in Tuscany told me that he pays as much as a dollar and a half really for equality cork and a capsule to be put over the neck of his plus a lot of money, and you must apply through sales chain and it can get rather expensive. So now we have screwed up or so several decades ago. This system was invented we call it a screw top. Or scoop up. I'm gonna uncapped this. And want to do it. I'm gonna show you how to do it with a little bit of panache. So you don't really want to do it like opening. I would do it. Yeah. You know by the neck, and then turn you wanna put your fist and thumb over the neck on the top of the bottle, put the palm of your hand on the bottom of the bottle. And then turn the bottom of the bottle. How Sheikh yeah. Way too Oprah. Nice little right. Okay. Does this let any oxygen all into the bottle much less than a natural cook the magic here is not in the aluminum cap it self but ten what's called the Wapping, which is little pad that sits down inside the lid is actually quite a lot of technology there. And if you're a winemaker, you can specify exactly the amount of oxygen exchange that you'd like to have in that cap. The other nice thing about it is that there's almost no way for anybody to tamper with the bottle you saying with the natural cork there can be tampering. Oh, yes. It's been done like they pull the cork put some cheap swilling it and put the cork back not necessarily cheap swelled. But typically. Yes. That's right. Okay. So now, we have the Coca Cola cap, right? This is called a crown cap. It's so little ribbed kep the world used to seeing soft drink bottle, right? If we're moving down the line here in terms of prestige. The crown gap is pretty much the low rent district for this kind of thing. It's quite a marvelous little thing and a lot of winemakers really like it. I'm just going to open. I mean, there's no trick to this. In terms of the one is is there any breathing here. Or is it totally sealed? It is very tightly steeled as you know, when she paints made there's a secondary fermentation, and when it gets its little dose of used and sugar it's sealed with crown Cup. And then it goes into a solar for fifteen months three years for years five years, and it's always underground Cup. And only when they send it out. Does it get a proper champagne cork with the big bulbous top and the basket. Tight around the top. All right. So the takeaway is there four different kinds. There's the natural cork synthetic cork the screw cap and the bottle like you'd see Bollock Okola does any of this really matter to the consumer. If you drink the wine with let's say year of buying it. What I tell customers is. If you're going to bring home, the wine and drink it in the next week and the next month and the next six months, you don't need to be concerned about the closure at all. It's mainly get over her whatever shame. You have about opening a bottle of wine with an alternative closure. Because in fact, they do a pretty fine job. So there's no shame in closure on that note. We'll close. Thank you, Steven. Thanks, chris. That was wine expert, Stephen. Early in the show. I spoke to Alexander's walls about how African American cooking has been influenced by Asian cuisines in an area in which immigration is hotly debated. It made me think that when it comes to food there really are, no boarders. Governments can stop the immigration people, but not their food, and therefore their culture, you know, Alice waters was right food is political can change the world for put another way food without borders. That's it for this week show. Tune into late. You can listen to our podcast and tunes. Wherever you get your podcast. Remember to subscribe to the show, you automatically get every show downloaded to your phone or tablet each week. To learn more about Millstream, please head to one seven seven Millstreet dot com. There you could download each week recipes. Subscribe to a magazine watcher TV show order our new cookbook, we'll be back next week. And thanks for listening. Christopher Kimble's milk street radio is produced by Milt street in association with WGN executive producer, Melissa ball. Dino producer tristen to Meany associate producer Carly Hellmut production. Assistant Jackie Nowak, senior audio engineer. Douglas sugar senior audio editor Melissa Allison with help from Vicky Merrick and Sydney Lewis audio mixing by Jay Allison at Atlantic public media production help Debbie paddock theme music by two crew. Additional music by George Brandel. Christopher Kimble's milk street radio is distributed by the public radio exchange.

Christopher Kimball Chris Sarah Bolton Harlem Andre MAC Alexander Smalls Africa Linda India Asia Senegal Stephen China New York California producer Brazil Brown Guinea Elizabeth
Bugs: They're What's for Dinner

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

52:23 min | 1 year ago

Bugs: They're What's for Dinner

"If you're looking for way to support military radio we do love hearing feedback which you like what you don't like and also who's listening it makes the show a lot better so please go and fill out our listeners survey and as a bonus you'll be entered to win one hundred dollar gift card to the Milk Street online store where we sell spice blends pantry items around the world and some milk street cookware as well so please visit one seven seven most read dot com slash radio survey to fill out the survey and enter for your a chance to win again. That's one seven seven milk street dot com slash radio survey the survey runs until August twenty fifth and thanks of course for your support by the way there's no purchase necessary to enter but you must be a legal resident of the fifty United States in D._C.. Eighteen or over to enter you must submit the survey by midnight on August twenty fifth rules or at one seven seven most read dot com slash radio survey now. Here's this week show. This is the most your radio for your host Christopher Kimball insects there what's for dinner or at least they might be in the near future as farmers and scientists search for new ways to feed the world today. I'm chatting Danielle Martin about why she says bugs or serious business the best insects she's ever tasted and her travels around the globe to find taste new bucks. I think probably the most interesting experience I had was in Thailand when I went to visit a man who farms saga grubs because in Thailand that's the thing you can do. There's something like twenty five thousand edible cricket farms in Thailand raising insects to sell consumption is absolutely a career path. They're already plus. We share a recipe for Barbados grilled. Fish Alexai news tells us about the art and science of making Mozzarella and home but now it's my interview with Ed Levine founder of the food website serious eats Levin just released his memoir serious eater a food lover's perilous quest for pizza and Redemption Ed. Thanks for being hillstreet. It's great to be with you Chris. My mother was actually a communist and you say your parents met at a Communist Party meeting on campus that he said he you know what I remember you describing your life at the Kimble family table and it was very different than the Levin family table well. My mind was very button-down uptight right everything the trains ran on time but we both had candy stores a few minutes away you grab your bike and that's we got your table talk pies and all the other stuff but my favorite thing is you said it was an ice cream place mid east. I guess and you could buy ice cream on credit credit. Is there a yes I could buy ice cream on credit. <hes> Smitty was the independent ice cream truck and my parents said okay now don't get ice cream from the good humor truck because the truck was was the man that was corporate and so- Smitty Smitty would he would do two things that that the good humor guys couldn't or wouldn't do one he would split a popsicle real so he would sell a half a popsicle and he would give you credit because she knew you were good for it. I've never heard someone referred to the good humor man as the man I mean he never had a chance with the lavine boys he gets you quote E B White <hes> no-one should come to New York unless he's willing to be lucky. I never heard that before would great quote and I guess that kind of sums up your career. You know one of the dedications the book as you know is to the series each community who taught me that everything and anything is possible with the aid of hard work a good idea a little luck and you know I love that A._p.. White phrase because in New York can seem like a forbidding and very big place and a hard place to find your community but it's also a place that has a community for every human being on this earth whether you confined it or not and that's where the luck comes in and it's what really allowed me to launch serious eats so let's talk about the dark side of this. which is the business side yeah so when you were raising losing money you were told to write a business plan that had scale so one of your business plans showed a million dollars of profit in the first year ten million the second year in almost forty million third year? Why because investors is needed to believe right? Yes they needed to believe 'cause you couldn't say what I really want to do is just do what I love and get paid for in the beginning I was I I was calling on venture capitalists. They're not trying to give me a good job. They're not trying to give me my dream job right there. Try to get paid and they don't they want a grand slam home run. They want ten sometimes their money. So that's the number I gave them. My wife works with me in the business. You had a similar issue with your wife. I what what is it like going through all that stress you say in the book it took its is toll talk about that worked sure I mean I'm so glad you brought that up because when you fall in love you don't ask your partner what their tolerance for risk gifts and of course. I didn't know that when I started serious eats I was going to end up borrowing. You know well over half a million dollars that my wife and I had to personally guarantee guarantee because one of the secrets of starting a small business and getting alone is that there's no way to get alone without personally guaranteeing it right. They need some collateral and good press clippings pinks being called the future of food media. They didn't consider that collateral and you know I put her through hell. I didn't at the time it was just survival but looking back on it. I think it's nothing short of a miracle that we're still buried and that we made through the serious eats Gauntlet you oh you did say once you sold series quote now that the company was sold it was seen as the man the serious eaters felt like I'd put her whole family up for adoption. The problem was I felt that way too yeah it was it was one of these things things because I was really invested in not being the man right in building this tribe of like minded people and giving them a place that would allow us all for our work to be a calling so all of a sudden some people who actually knew how to run businesses <hes> own the business and I think thank everyone now. WHO's at Syria seats they they are very happy with the people who bought the company who let Syria seats still be serious eats but it doesn't mean that it's not a different feeling and I think that's inevitable and I just didn't know I didn't expect to feel like the man and it was a really uncomfortable feeling for both me and them but let me ask <music> a tough question? Maybe if you're the founder of serious eats. Weren't you always from the perspective of the other people there the man I mean you're never just were one of the guys on staff you were the guy so maybe this this whole time you actually word the man from there. I think that's right. I don't I just think I could never that's what I meant. Yeah you know yeah. I just didn't know it you know and it's funny. You mentioned this because I just. I got an email from Maggie. Hoffy news was became our managing editor over time and she said Oh your publicists sent me a copy of serious eater she goes. I had no idea what are wondering insane. Saying ride basically hit it from people as best as I could. Although I have a terrible poker face but you know it's it's one of those things that I just didn't WanNa see myself as is the man although they depended on me and I knew that right because I always had to worry about. Do I have enough money for payroll and so often I would go without getting paid but that's just part of being the man and I just don't think I wanted to acknowledge that yeah well. You still wanted to be one of the kids at the table right Ed. Thank you so much better a real pleasure thank you that was Ed. Levine memoirs called Serious Eater Food Lovers perilous quest for Pizza and redemption right now my co host ceremonies and I will be taking your calls US series of course the author cookie one one in the star of Sara's weeknight meals on public television. Hi Sarah you ready for a new batch of questions yes Chris. I am very ready. Welcome to milk street. WHO's calling this? Is Nancy gold from Cambridge Hi Nancy from Cambridge. How can we help you today? <hes> I called a few months ago because at the time <hes> Passover with coming and I always make coconut macaroni which is a sort of traditional thing at Passover and I had in the past use a really good recipe that called for egg whites but now several members of my family have become Vegan so I called to ask you guys what I should do about it and you might remember that you recommended substituting Aqua Fob quite chickpea liquid recipe. Did you actually make so. It's a recipe that you might be familiar with Chris. <hes> it's a triple coconut back aroon recipe the that calls for four egg whites. I substituted for each egg white two tablespoons of the aqua fava and it didn't work it was a qualified success. I would say <hes> the vegans were thrilled and the only problem with it is that they didn't really hold together as well as I would. Hope I remember both of you now saying that the Aqaba was not beaten and that was not part of the recipe so actually <hes> <hes> Nancy after we had that call I did a little rummaging around on the Internet and I came up with a recipe for Aqua Fob Amac runes and this recipe had you beating the Aquifer Baba and and then adding the sweetener to it and actually getting them you know some volume out of them and then folding in the rest of the ingredients next year my basically make these once a year. Even though they're delicious they're really really good <hes> and they tasted just as good good but you kind of had to eat them with a fork sort of dense but Arkansas but will beat up you add a little bit of cremator to it to begin next year. I can try giving them or maybe I'll make half a recipe and try whipping them okay. Hey thanks thanks take care okay. Thank you bye-bye welcome to milk street. WHO's calling? This is lauren are you. Where are you calling from? I'm good I'm calling from Hendersonville North Carolina learn. How can we help you well? I have a question about measuring ice water. When you're making bread? I've been making bread for about the past year and trying a lot of different types and when I've come to <hes> recipes for maybe like the Tar bread or cow's zone though it calls for ice water to be measured and that has kind of stumped me because I've wondered do you measure out say one and a third cups chiefs of water with ice in it. Do you make ice water and then pour out one and a third cups of it. Do you measure the water and then at ice to it. What's the best way to do this for no recipe? Be You put ice and water. Let it chill than measure out the whatever you want but I have a question. Why are you saying `I squatter for? I'm like totally baffled. Is this a yeast bread. No it's in sniper. Council cows zones has used it cost for it in the recipe. It says one and a third cups ice water. What's the rest of the recipe? It's got yeast. I Swat her. Maybe some honey in it salt bread flour. It's pretty simple and then do it in a food processor. Oh I think the reason is because it'll heat up the dough in a food processor so the ice water. I think the water's cold to make sure the dough doesn't get too hot to kill off the east. I think that's what's going on now that makes yeah put ice and water together and then you measure the water out of that but if you weren't using a food processor you wouldn't use ice water. Yeah okay good. Thank you so much all right. Yes Lauren Daycare. This is most radio. If you have a cooking question we probably have an answer. Give us a call eight five five four to six nine eight four three. That's eight five five four two six nine eight four three or email us at questions at Mill Street radio DOT COM welcome to milk street WHO's calling this is Eileen from Rochester New York Hi Aileen. How can we help you today? I have a question about making mm basal pistol in bulk so that you can keep it <hes>. I've tried various things. I've tried freezing it. I've tried putting olive oil on it. I've tried planting the Basil and I never get completely satisfactory results and I get a lot of basil for my p._S._A.. Share I have an answer but Sarah go ahead well. I just going to say that. The enemy of Basil is oxygen so it seems like the olive oil. Things should work just a little layer on top. Tell me what happens well. I put the layer on top hop and then I go to use <hes> so scrape off some of the olive oil and then I put more olive oil on top so either. I don't cover it all or I have to put so much in because I took a scoop of it out. It keeps diluting it. Do you also put plastic separate on top of it not done that because that really helps to you just want to keep the airway from it. I've had gardens all my life and I've grown lots of FIZZLE. I've tried to freeze in ice cube trays. That was the thing I came down to so I'd freeze it overnight and ice cube trays pop them out. Put them in big double wrap bags but it's not nearly as good as their real real deal with the two problems. Most Basil in the United States has very little flavor compared to Italy. They're bigger leaves in their course and unless flavorful that's interesting little tiny guy that makes me think about the little tiny basil and also make it is very different in Italy because they start with the nuts and the garlic and their puree that and then they'll add in some of the cheese then they'll the basil really almost I'm also the last thing and tons of it I mean the ratio is like almost all basil and then just a little bit of oil is fairly dry mixture in case. It's not going to be as good but you know what I I use it in the winter and it's better than nothing so I would say freezing ice cube trays. So what else can I do to preserve the tons of basil that I get. That's a problem too. Well you know one thing is if you have the roots on a lot of time they'll give it to you with the roots on route yeah so if you can treat it like flowers course you put it with roots down in glass of water and leave it outside at hates the refrigerator but it's only going to last two or three days. I know this is a problem I would make pesto and freeze it and it won't be as good but at least it will be happy yeah auditory and then you know when you make the Pesto for freezing US moral. You normally wouldn't more cheese and everything else well Eileen. Thank you for Christ's recalling. Yes take care okay. You're listening to milk street radio. I'm Christopher Kim on up next. We're chatting with Daniel Martin about the next big. Food trend bunks that in just a moment. Years ago I didn't love fish sauce was buying a cheap supermarket brand and it was well a little fishy these days however fish sauces one of my pantry staples and that's because as I use red boat it's made with nothing more than wild caught black anchovies and sea salt. They also use the first pressing which is the highest quality so the best way to add flavor without the work is to use a high quality fish sauce like red boat for more information about red boat an next to recipes. Please go to red boat fish sauce dot com one more time red boat fish sauce dot com enter code milk during checkout to receive free shipping. That's Code Milk M. I L K this. This is the most your radio I'm your host Christopher Kimball by the year two thousand fifty world population is expected to reach almost ten billion in hot crowded World Daniele. Martin says insects will be an important food source. Martin's new book is called Edible Bull and adventure into the world of eating insects and the last great hope to save the Planet Danielle. Ah Welcome to milk street. Thank you for having me so you've gone through a whole long list you talk about in the book of all the things you've eaten and your favorites you point out our wax worms bees wasps and fried bamboo worms so when you say favorites some just have a toast ier nuttier flavor what his favorite it's interesting you ask I was recently reading a study on the nutritional components of different types of insects and the ones that I like are high in fat so good yeah be brewed <hes> wax moth larvae <hes> bamboo worms and these are just they're they're light mild flavors. They're not intense. <hes> like a tow biter bug would be <hes> a tow biter bug where what's the it's the giant giant water bug and it has it's called litto biter because it actually has some powerful jaws that can bite down pretty hard on your toes in the water. If you're in the lake and like that like is where well actually that and yet so I I'm from California but I now live in Minnesota Ota and I've I've seen them here in the lakes and I'm like oh my gosh because I had only seen them really in Thailand where they grind them up and they use them as this flavoring element to this particular type of curry seasoning and it's this you know who Mommy Me Gene Assay <unk> flavor that you can't get anywhere else and that makes sense because if you've ever crunched down on one it is the most overwhelming complex flavor I've ever experienced. I want to come to that now because you too themes here one theme is we're talking about food supply billion New People every ten or twenty years. That's on one hand and the other hand. Some of the stuff actually tastes good so do you put those two things together or are those two separate totally different ways of looking at this and that's something I actually have been thinking about quite a bit lately because it does feel like there are two sides of it. There's the sort of ethical push. which is you know eat bugs save the world they require require less food and water and space to raise their an ethical source of protein and the fact that that isn't doesn't appear to be much of a motivator for people so I don't know I think of it as sort of the Tesla motors odors approach to entomology where prior to the Tesla Electric vehicles used to be sort of a punishment car? They didn't go fast. They weren't sexy. They were just sort of this ethical contribution but now they're fast. They're sleek. They're sexy and everybody wants one so that's sort of what we need to do for insects while you mentioned in your book the Bug Apetit Cafe New Orleans six legged Salsa crispy crispy Cajun crickets cinnamon bug crunch chocolate chirp cookies. I like that one. That's one way to go right which is to have fun with it sure it will and that sense you're immersed in the context of insects because that's an insect museum so there's that but you're not getting that cultural immersion and it it seems that the Foodie culture tends to really lock onto that idea of getting an authentic cultural experience and it that's something we haven't translated as well. You know we've done a great job of adapting insects to our culture <hes> in terms of you have your bug based tortilla chips in chirp chips and you have even have companies that are making pasta out of ground up cricket flour and cookies and everything like that things that we're already used to eating just combined with insects but we we haven't really you know we don't have Japanese food comes from Japan. Mexican food comes from Mexico insects is come from over one hundred different cultures around the world. I don't know which one you would choose so let's talk about the future you talk about that Formula F C Our food conversion ratio and the inefficiency of eating beef so we're talking ten to one with beef. What is that me well? It could be that for a pound of beef. It requires that the cow eats ten pounds of grain versus for a cricket it could be pound for pound crickets pound grain. The cricket colony puts on a pound of growth but even with the F. CR. I'm not really seeing built into that. Calculation the fact that you're using the entire animal with crickets versus these other species where you know even chickens. They're still bones. Feathers feet beaks that were not using same with fish so let's say in the year twenty one hundred is a possible. We'll solve the world hunger problem without having to eat insects. There'll be some other solution to this problem. That's a really great question. I mean they're already getting going on the lab grown meat but all of those things require technology and so I think it's kind of a you know there's people that that like to stay quote unquote natural and insects would really be the natural side of that. I think that we should have everything going for us that we possibly can Dan you want to keep the insect option alive and well. I think we should open all of our avenues. I instead of trying to maneuver around one. I think we should absolutely be developing all of them so yes so let's talk about eating insect so give us some examples of things you've eaten the stuff you love the stuff. You didn't love some of the most interesting situations I have had such incredible experiences eating eating insects. I think partly because a lot of the people that also are interested in eating insects are very interesting people and that makes me think of this one bug eating party in Japan where they brought in a giant Hornets nest full of Poopie which are you know baby Hornets basically and they had us fish them out with chopsticks and they were you know delectable. They were like this creamy Sushi but I think probably the most most interesting experience I had was in Thailand when I went to visit a man who farms saga grubs and he he wanted to start a business selling these these insects because in Thailand that's the thing you can do. There's something like twenty five thousand cricket farms edible cricket farms in Thailand this you know raising in sehgal's to sell for consumption is absolutely a career path. They're already so he sent me back to my hotel with a little Baggie full of these squirming wriggling fat worms and I had no idea what I was going to do with them but he assured assured me that they that my hotel would cook them up for me and I thought that was pretty crazy. I mean what I'm going to walk into the hotel kitchen and be like here. I have this bag of worms. Can you make something rivets and yet that is exactly what happened and the the kid who did it seemed to have done it before and then they served it to me <hes> with a wonderful Thai beer and it was fantastic. It was like a big plate of. Of of really smush she potato chips now. When you say fantastic do you mean it was fantastic compared to what you've thought the experience was going to be like or do you mean compared to a big plate of French fries it? It was fantastic. I think that it was as good as if I had been served a plate of shrimp on the texture would have been a little bit different. The shrimp would have been a bit firmer because they have all that muscle <hes> whereas these guys were mostly fat but but <hes> and it is really hard to divorce your your mental picture of how it's going to be. I don't know if there's a way to come into it totally neutral but hopefully as as as the world evolved more people will be able to do that well forty years ago or fifty years ago. If you've mentioned Chev- go cheese a lot of people probably would have thought I don't want to eat cheese made from goat's milk. I mean we've we've come a long way. You're right eventually. It's about marketing. I mean you mentioned in your book. Chilean Sea Bass is just a renaming of sort of ugly toothfish right yeah. It's about it's about marketing. It's also about changing our society a little bit. I mean you know I'm raising two young children now now and I'm very mindful not to give them this idea. That insects are gross so this is a extensively of food slash cooking shows so do you want to give us some tips on cooking insects. I would say the best best way that I've found to cook. Insects especially for first timers is is to do a quick saute because a Saute is very it's very familiar so I would just sautee some onions with a little butter and a little salt and then drop in some some rinsed wax worms. Ideally you've frozen them overnight so they're not all wriggling whip that up on and use it as a TACO filling. It's it's it's perfection so so so now I'm going to be writing recipes someday. It'll say two cups wags Worms Comma rinsed is my future. I see it coming right and the only thing is that you have to make sure that they don't pop oh. No I explode yeah well. Let's talk about the heat you don't want them on the heat to two long. They're a little bit like popcorn. <hes> you WanNa let them cook until they become sort of firm. Kinda like shrimp but yeah but you don't really want to let them go too far beyond that because then they will pop and then they'll their little exo skeletons will just deflate like teeny tiny balloons and that's less appetizing. I think that's a great head note to the recipe saute into a free but not until explode yeah underneath all the fun. You are serious about this. So what would you like to see happen. In the next ten or fifteen years it used to be that I would have quite the docket list. A lot has happened. There are new companies. It seems like every week or every month popping up there are people who are doing recipes in already high end restaurants like noma when I was in Thailand they their version of Costco actually had big bags of frozen insects in their freezer section so we haven't quite come that far but boy just even in the last ten years since I started getting into this things things have changed completely so I think people are doing a fantastic job. I'm really I'm impressed and I'm excited to see how it all turns out Danielle. Thank you why we should eat insects x and how we should cook them why they're so tasty. Thank you so much thank you that was done. Yellow Barton author edible an adventure into the world of eating insects in the last great hope to save the plant <music> bugs rule the world there are eight hundred fifty thousand different species and ten Quin Tilles on earth. I think that's a million billion and are they prolific. The African driver in for example produces over three million eggs every twenty eight days and of course they're survivors the orchid mantis masquerades as a flower to avoid being eaten and the Bombardier beetles sets off an explosion of sulfuric acid in the mouth of a Predator so when it comes through eating insects. Maybe that's not such a bad idea. Let's eat them before they eat us. It's time to chat with Catherine Smart about this week's recipe for Betas grilled fish Catherine area. I'm good crest so Albert just got back whenever editors from Barbados extensively on a work trip and I think it was vacation ended up cooking with Miss Evelyn who's a cook and matriarch of a large fishing family and she does a grilled Wa who with marinade and then the hot sauce to finish so we adapted that of course your milk straighten. How do we get started? Bill CRESPI wanted to stay true to Miss Evelyn's recipe but we also wanted to streamline as you say so the first order of business was Wa who can be really hard to find here so we use Mahi Emma he which has a similar sort of texture and flavor and then ask for that marinade you talk about hers has a ton of ingredients so we kind of boiled it down to the essentials which is a lot of onion flavor between onion and garlic and chives that are all blended together and then some herbs a little bit of vinegar city actually traditionally they use some golden rum but that's kind of hard. We don't have that in our pantry so used a little bit of brown sugar that we marinated probably pretty quickly right like twenty minutes or something that's right Chris. We say about thirty minutes. It's definitely no more than forty. The issue with fish is marinades can sometimes work a little bit too well and penetrating the fish and the steady can really start to break it down and teams the texture we grow it. I assume over high heat and then move onto the actual hot sauce right. That's right Chris. It's a really quick grill over high direct T._v.. Just a few minutes per side and then we finish it with this hot sauce and this is a really interesting sauce Chris the base is this mustard turmeric blend very flavorful very different. We also add Scotch Bonnet peppers because not only do the heat but a little bit of that freakiness and then some lime juice and a little bit more brown sugar just to smooth it all out so Albert goes on vacation comes back with a recipe for a tropical Barbados. Grilled fish has a great source also. It's a thicker sauce. It's a little unusual. It really tastes great. Thank you Kathryn. Thanks Chris you can get this recipe for Barbados grilled fish at one seven seven milk street dot com. You're listening to milk street radio. Coming up Alexai news teaches. She's about the science and secrets of making cheese. We'll be right back. This is your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball right now. Sara Moulton I will be taking a few more of your culinary questions. Welcome to milk street. WHO's calling Maryland wrath from Denver High Maryland from Denver? How can we help you today well? I'm always been concerned about onion. I use them a lot in my stir fries and all things and I wonder about the potency and the difference between shallots and scallions and red onions and yellow onion shall. I'd like to hear Chris talk more in depth about that. Well let me start with yellow onions which are sort of the all purpose onion but also a good coking onion because they have a high sulfur content. So what makes you cry when you cut them is what makes them give you the same thing develops as it cooks that sulfur that depth of flavour that wonderful yeah sort of backdrop so so yellow onions are great sort of all purpose and good cooking onion. Yes the Vijaya and Walla Walla and those guys you really don't do as well don't give you the depth of flavor when you cook them because they are. They don't have the same sulfur for content. Yes yes also yellow onion. We tested this ends up being the sweetest onion when cooked cooked because the sulfur chemistry cooking changes it so the yellow onion is the sharpest one. Raw turns out actually to be sweet as like a red onion when cooked which is why you WANNA use it for onion soup. That would be your choice in Soup Cristiana take on some of the others well the first question to ask whether you're using this raw <music> or cooked right yeah mostly cooked I use the shallots and I find they're really quite popular in Asian dishes fried rice and there seemed to be milder I hi cut them in thirds for some chicken and sizzling shall at this I may that came out wonderfully so I'm very into shallots but I'll have to keep in mind. The yellow in shallots are cool. I like to mend some input on my vinocrats vets unlike other onions. They don't give you onion breath. They just make it more interesting my Vinaigrette S- they are keen to peel but they're biggers but they're bigger than they used to be. They are that so oh you treat them like an onion. Yeah that's true and then you probably use a lot of scallions in your stir fries right. Oh I do scallions so much in stir fries in math grenades. I love scallions. Civilians are also good if I often often cook a poached chicken and just a lot of water the Chinese method I throw in a bunch of scallions and ginger in the water and you really helps you get terrific broth or good for that too. Yes yes I agree all right so Marilyn and <hes> I hope this helps you and <hes> you know have fun with those onions. Yes I will thank you take care okay welcome to mill street. WHO's calling deb from quarterlane concern? I help you <hes>. My question is about a New York style pizza more specifically the dough for the crust. I have a recipe that I've been using for more than twenty years which I like but it still doesn't come close to the pies in New York. I just can't seem to get right and I'm wondering how much of this could be because of the water. I keep hearing that water is so much better there. My theory is this is complete nonsense and it's something New York City as like glommed log onto somehow but Sarah lives in New York. What do you think well let me just say this? I don't know if it's true or not. I do know that the water in New York it's soft water which does have an effect on gluten but I wanted to ask deb Bob. What is it that you don't like about yours mainly the consistency? I can't get the Chris Chris that folds that I get there now. I have a pizza oven and I travel the equipment so I was hoping. Do you really have any professional pizza dough. That's what you're doing I think so do you know what kind of water you have in that department. H Yeah of all look all the things that contribute to the perfect pizza I mean there's so many variables I would think the Ph of the water would would be the least of would not be in the top ten the two things I can say that we know make a big difference is the hydration level of course that is a percentage of water to the weight of the whole dough and the other thing we discovered a year ago was the temperature of the dough before you roll it out and bake and we found if the DOE was at seventy five degrees you get a really great crust that bubbles up and it's Chewy and crispy if the dose sixty five to seventy is cooler it doesn't. I wonder whether your your kitchen is not as warm for example as a pizzeria New York ear probably onto something because the kitchen that I'm in right now oh it's stays about seventy two degrees. I'm letting the dose that for three days before I try to use it so I'm bringing it out of a pretty cold refrigerator for how long an hour I think that's the problem because I do that too. I make a three day doe but if I let it sit for an hour hour and a half I know the temperatures. It's you know high sixties. It's not in the seventies you can take the balls of Dell and put them in a plastic container and put them in warm water. If you want to heat the my warm ups faster. It's the only thing I've found that makes a big difference. That's really interesting. Well give it a shot because it really is actually a problem because think about it a pizzeria. It's it's hot. Doe is not choice yeah. I think that's yeah okay Chris well. She's gotTa try try yeah. Oh and would you please get back to US absolutely okay all right well. Thank you thank you bye-bye by. This is most your radio. If you need help illuminating the mysteries of WHO'd give us a call at eight five five four two six nine eight four three that's eight five five four to six nine eight four three or email us at questions and Mill Street radio DOT com welcome to milk street. WHO's calling Adolfo Lopez Hi Adolfo? Where are you calling from? Well our vacationing in California. I live in New Orleans. ooh Nice both Nice on the question has to do with is it possible or is ru especially the kind of Dark Red Brown root that you make for Gumbo. Is that an issue for gluten <hes> we were asked by someone and I started thinking well how does gladys forum flour and water but when you cook a rule that long and dark you know does that affect its ability to form gluten well. We know that through that's Brown does not thick in the same way. <hes> you know white rule would but I'm thinking gluten is still fill them in them there hills the first question is if you cook a roo can someone who wants to be your has to be gluten free consume it in the answers that doesn't work because the proteins and flour gluten gladden they will come together when you make dough water allows them to come together in connect but I believe the allergy is to the gladden and so whether or not gluten is formed is irrelevant. You still have the proteins gluten. Gluten are what caused the problem not the formation of quote unquote gluten so that's not going to solve the problem I was doing research and <hes> there was own appetite that King Arthur flower gluten free and they made it root for light roof or Turkey gravy and they thought that would solve the problem but lots of other people had tried gluten free glowers and when they cooked to that degree the red brown color for ru it just didn't taste the same and and that's the basis of the whole Gumbo you know what I think your stock you could try some other kind of flour like almond flour but I don't think I'm GonNa WanNa make a ruin of of flower so I think I don't think there's as a way to get around to get around this and you thought that myself but it it hit never come up and I've cooked roof or allow and I've cooked roof or kosher and this one had never come up before there's only one you might try. It may be is brown rice flour. Rice flowers won't have a really odd flavor and it's a single ingredients as opposed to the mixes and a lot of free flowers. He'll toast pretty well so you you might give that a shot but that's the only one I would recommend probably a little different yeah. We'll we'll be but we'll be accepted but I mean you're just wondering it's not like you have to do this right. Well it. It came up and I'm sitting here my friend and ex Jeff Ron and we were putting our heads together together and trying to research and think it wasn't even possible and to try to accommodate somebody make a small batch and something like that. I was just afraid that whatever we did because it's such a core aspect of the pace of the Gumbo that if we <hes> we tried other things that it might not work out although although we didn't get a chance to try we may actually try if you do you gotta let us know and I agree with Chris. I think the Brown Rice flowers the best bat will give that a shot won't be as good but it might be good enough. Yes yeah okay thank you. Thanks recall all right. This is most your radio. I'm Christopher Kimball Dow. It's time for some culinary inspiration from one of our listeners. Hi This is don on and here's my tip next using Pastel then tikki begins it makes an extra creamy as a quick way to elevate an otherwise mediocre pass though show. If you'd like to share your own cooking tips or secrets reading on Milk Street radio please go to one seven seven milk street dot com slash radio tips one more time one seven seven milk street dot com slash radio tips <music> next epaulets here for Mad French food scientists Alex. I News Alex. How are you what's going on in Paris? I'm good. How are you good? What's on your mind to cheese making reading to cheese making? I'm fascinated by the fact that you can actually make cheese instead of just buying it and in fact I've been concentrating my efforts on the most popular cheese ever worldwide which is Mozzarella cheese so you've had your hands awesome very hot water executive right so in fact everything started in Italy in the north of Naples where I made a trip and try to learn from the best in business from Mozzarella masters the process this is quite complicated and surprising for me since that she's appears to be so simple right for me. It was just you take milk you separate it into killed and way and then from the curls you press stimulus clutched him a new make Mozzarella and that was the initial plan. I'm afraid to to tell you that nothing went according to this plan. What did you learn? That makes you think it's complicated. I had three main failures failures when it comes to making money the first failure was related to milic. I thought I could use any milk doesn't work this way. It just has to be a higher fat content. Wh what was the problem. No so you see Mitt it can be raw can be filtered can be film is used can be low past is highly pasteurize or even a pasteurized at ultra high temperature so that's at least the bacteria levers that you can find milk nick and then there's the treatment it can be skim it can be reduced for it can behold me so it makes loads of combinations of milk the closer it-it's to its raw state while still maintaining food safety the better your curls will be basically so that was my first failure not considering milk as important as it should be the second failure. I faced within my cheese. Making journey was to underestimate rennet so if you're not familiar with it rennet ease the main coagulating agent when you're making cheese so it can come from animale digital or even fungi microbial genes can have single strength the strength and not picking the right one father job can be a problem you have to go to a cheese is making supplier to get rennet. Where do you buy Rennet so I both rent it in a pharmacy in France? It's a bit odd but you can find rennet in pharmacies. It's probably part of our culture but usually yes. You're right you have have to buy this in dedicated cheese making stores and the best way to do this is to do it online in fact since you have access to wider array of products okay so you get now if you get the right rennet becomes springer is that right if you get the right Rennet then you are able to make better curls you get those beautiful bit firm yet soft and consistent coats and I thought it was the end of it. I thought I solve the problem still not the case. I faced my third and last failure in this cheese making johnny the problem of the acidity to make modalities to sledge Mozzarella Mozzarella cheese. You need to have an acidic milk. At first. The acidity of the milk should be at five point two in terms of the so that's only slightly acidic then yeah exactly that's slightly acidic exactly it's it's not sour lemon sour hall anything like this No. It's slightly acidic but it's very important because if you're not staying within this Ph range then it's not gonna stretch there are two ways you can get your milk to be slightly acidic. The first method is the traditional method in this one. You're basically using a byproduct from the activity of bacteria. Let's say you're starting with raw milk. In enroll milk aplenty bacteria's those bacterias they tend to produce lactic acid as they are digesting lactose in milk and this is making the milk slightly more acidic so this is one one way but he's very hard to control. It's very hard to be consistent with this method now. There is another way and this one is way more simple and this is the one I would suggest to any matter cheesemaker and it's to you basically acidified with lemon juice or just just a pinch of citric acid so you need a Ph meter of some kind obviously right yes. Of course you have to be very precise. That's probably one of the aspect that that I underestimated as well but overall. I would say that failing within this cheese making Joni was very interesting. It taught me a lot so S- okay at the end of the day you went through this. You went to northern Italy etc.. Did you find making your own. Mozzarella was something you would do again. Did you enjoy it. How good was the Mozzarella etc.? The Post is was very enjoyable. Would I do it again. I don't know I don't think so. The thing is that I thought it would be easier. I was able to make decent Mozzarella after three tries but to make really really good moments. I like like would taste nearly as good as the one I had in Italy. It's basically forever well it would be it would be very disappointing if you an amateur from Peres went down to Italy and then half day became a top Mozzarella maker would be that would be really yeah. I had to lower my expectations. Yes you're right well. Look that gives me faith right. I mean great food products. Take Time and a lifetime of experience that makes me feel good about the industry right. It's it shouldn't be easy. You're you're probably right. It's probably for greater good Alex thank you this was true Mozzarella confessions thank you so much that was Alexai news host of Alex French Guy Cooking on Youtube. He's also the author of just a French French guy cooking. She's making. It's really gotten out of hand in our small part of Vermont. Goats are running. Rampant and sellers are full of shove Tom and criteria as called porter wrote in nineteen forty one quote farming. That's the fashion of great celebrities of today so I'm waiting for Madonna to shovel manure. Maybe Casey can help with the birth of a kid at two A._M.. On a very cold February morning then we'll know finally that farming is is a fashion statement until then. Maybe we should just appreciate farmers for what they really do. That's the hard work that feeds the world. That's it for today. If you tuned later just WanNa listen again you can download and subscribe to Milk Street radio. Wherever you find your podcasts to learn more about milk street? Please go to one seven seven milk street dot com there you can download each week's recipe. Take an online cooking class or order our latest Cookbook Milk Street Tuesday nights you can also find us on facebook Christopher Kimble's milk street in on instagram and twitter and one seven seven milk street. We'll be back next week and thanks of course for listening so Christopher Kimble's milk street radio is produced by Milk Street in association with W.. G. B. H. Executive Producer Melissa Bongino senior audio editor Melissa Allison Producer Ami sensabaugh associate producer Jackie Nowak Production Assistant Stephanie Cone and production help from Debbie Paddock senior audio engineer Douglas sugars additional editing from Vicky Merrick Sydney Lewis and Haley faker and audio mixing.

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Nailed It! Nicole Byer Bakes Funny

Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio

50:43 min | 6 months ago

Nailed It! Nicole Byer Bakes Funny

"Hi this is Christopher Kimball. Thanks for downloading this week's podcast. You can go to our website. One seven Milk Street Dot Com for recipes, culinary ideas around the world and our latest cookbooks now. Here's this week show. This is most of your radio from PX host Christopher Kimball. Today we're speaking with Nicole buyer. Median host of the amateur baking competition show nailed. She talks about her first day on set how she uses Improv and physical comedy. Why the show is not about watching, people failed. These people don't know how to Beg. We give them time limits. We ask them to recreate this same thing and there's eight cameras in front of them. And, then there's me a comedian that they might know might not know screaming at them so i. Fully, understand how you would freak out under that kind of pressure. It's crazy. Also coming up, we get a good char on Catalonian inspired grill vegetables. In later we learn how to make perfect. Homemade fried rice. Jay Kenji Lopez opt. But I. It's my interview with Karl Smack. He's manager of the world's only International Salvador Library. Karl welcome about street and give for having me. Let's start with a really stupid question. What is the sour dough, starter? As. Those readers stupid question as a question, a lot of people ask a salad aside or is actually very simple. To make it to blend the flour and water that comes to life by feeding it during six seven days daily with fresh water and fresh flower. And then life occurs to them the the micro organism start to multiply, and then you have something that has fermentation power that means the bread. Levin and you have lactic acid bacteria that do amazing things. With the proteins in the flower. Why does sometimes you can make starter a works other times? It doesn't work and other times. It turns really sour. It has an off flavor or older to it. So. Why is it sometimes successful in sometimes not successful? The reason is not successful might be that first of all people give up too fast. You will notice that when you when you start a sour dough the first couple of days. It can really stink and you'd think that you did something wrong, but you just have to keep going. Secondly, it could be that the flower just is not fit for sour dough that the flower has been treated all bleached. And thirdly. A sour dough actually acidifies time after time. So what happens is that some of these guessing bacteria cannot survive when the environment is to sour so sour dough becomes a very simple thing where only one or two lactic acid bacteria survived and are very dominant ended. Dr Responsible for a high production of sour dough. Making it sound simple, but to maintaining and keeping it consistent. That's that's another Bogan. So you have over a hundred starters in your library our library. Yet! How often do you have to go in? Refresh each of these sour dough starters? Yeah we do every two months. We feed all of them three times before putting them back. In the fridges we feed them following the recipe. We got from the owners and give us their recipe and the amounts that they are using, and they also send us the flower that they use in order to refresh so besides the collection of Sour. Does we also have a collection of flowers? Because some sour does contain two treaty, there's even one up to six different kinds of flowers and flower you add to the sourdot over time will completely change its flavor if you don't use the right flower, right? If you start changing the flower. The the flavor of the sour dough will change, but also the temperature a change of two degrees, or maybe in Fahrenheit, it's five degrees. Difference can completely change the overall flavor of a sour dough. When you go in a colder fermentation, you produce a lot of acidic acids, so your sourdot thence to be more vinegar to be more acidic. When you go warm, you'll sour. Dough is more milky more lactic in in all of these warm countries, there is often no link to sourness, but in colder countries. Germany Russia Scandinavia. They have a cold climate and often the breads are more acidic there than in countries like Italy. For instance, you need to leads very difficult to find a CD Brits Really Intr I always wondered about that. 'cause like an I spent a little time in Austria and they have a lot of the farts. Bro Than other things and there's a lot of sick breads. Let's talk about these one hundred twenty eight starters, so some of them were pretty interesting. You said number one hundred. Is Japanese. It's made with cooked sake rice. Could you talk about that? Yes so a bakery goal Ming from Tokyo Kimura Bakery, and they have the starter made from cooked rice and multiply, so he's a blend of rice and a bit of multiplies. And Its origins from eight, seventy four, and it was in the the moment that in Japan the emperor was taking all the power, and the somewhere I suddenly where all out of job now somewhere I get never work for another for someone else so a lot of them became independent, some of them became fishermen, carpenters, butchers, whatever and Mr Kimura he became a baker, and he learned how to make sour dough. Only he was not happy with the flavor of it, and he had a friend someone who was doing second. He was making second, and so they started to convert. The Flower. To rice and they ended up with this amazing. What they call a second Danny Sourdot, which is just cooked rice and a little bit of multi thrice. You wrote a starter has its own heart. Almost its own will treat a starter nicely, and it will reward you tremendously like A. So so so my question is. You love starting. Treat them and think of them as as your friends, right. You have one hundred twenty eight very close friends in your library. Yes, but luckily I'm not the only one I think that everyone who has a starter at home depot, compared to bet or to baby, or whatever, because it's something if you brought it to live by yourself where you have a certain link to it, and for me in the library I know a lot of the people of course behind a starter and some have become good friends. Carl, it's been a real pleasure having straight I now have to go start my start. Liquid and if you need advice, you know where to find. That was called. The Smet he's manager of the potatoes were heritage sour. Dough Library in Belgium? Signed to take some of your calls my co-host Sarah, Bolton. Of course the storm, Sara's weeknight meals on public television also author of home cooking. Sarah before we open up the phone lines I do have a very personal question. Oh dear, so was it you love. Most were gourmet may for like ten years. was there a moment that was really the Best Day Kerr May? Well I had two different jobs there. The first one was being in the kitchen first four years and I'd say really good. Day was when I did my first center fault. That sounds. But. I do think there is an element of pornography. You know to food photography because you just want people to bridge ruling. The first one I did was in July of nineteen eighty four. Well I did A to melon soup puree of honeydew, cantaloupe and back then they had more flavor than they do now. And one was flavored with lemon juice, and one was flavored with lime juice, and then the whole thing had little plop of sour cream and treaded mint, and then I did actually Salmon Scallop, Pini, with dried porcinis mushroom sauce i. don't remember what else was on there, but it was very exciting, so that was a high point. Hungry, okay. Open up the phone, yes! Welcome to milk street WHO's calling. Hi. This is sally be from Wilmington. How can we help you? It's about neat. Done this skirt by hope. You can help me understand a term. I heard on the first season of top chef when a contestant was told her stakes over arrested. What does over arrested mean? What's it look like? Is it cold? Is it congealed? How can you tell if it's over arrested? Resting simply means when a roast or a steak is done. A lot of people think you should let arrest in. Sit at room. Temperature for depends on how big the roster stake a stake would be a few minutes arose could be twenty minutes. A Turkey might be half an hour. And it allows juices to be reabsorbed by muscle fibers in the meat now over rested means someone, let it sit so long. That is started to cool off, and it's no longer to temperature where you really wanna eat it and some people think resting is a bunch of nonsense. Anyway, meathead Goldwyn example on the show a lot. WHO's a grilling expert out of Chicago? He thinks you should grill a steak and then just eat it because that's the right temperature a really and I'd say. I've had mixed results I. think if you cut into a the second and comes off the grill or out of the oven. That's probably a mistake, but I think leading something. Sit Twenty minutes like a roast chicken I mean after twenty minutes starts to get cool, so I would say very brief rest of a few minutes is fine. I'd never heard that term before, so somebody invented on top chef never heard that term at all Tom Click. You was a judge on top chef and he hates meet. It's been sitting around. It may have been. He said yes. I like it. I think resting is extremely important. I've seen huge differences in when I. Let something rest, and what I don't. It tends to be choosier. It tends to be more evenly cooked. It doesn't dry out. Let's say I've accidentally overcooked something like a pork loin or a pork tenderloin, which is easy to Overcook if I let it rest, it tends to cover up some of that problem. If I a overcooked at slightly and be sliced into it right away is just tough and dry, so I'm a huge fan of interesting. We both agree resting. Supporting the question is how long yeah? I mean I think of duck. It really does seem to be arrested, but other than that. You know I was just wondering and you know I'm glad to hear that over arrested is not. A thing I really appreciate the information. It's great. Thank you try a few minutes and. See what yes, so thanks for calling. Thanks for a lot bye-bye. Welcome to milk street. WHO's calling I this is Jeremy from Phoenixville Pennsylvania. How can we help you? So I like cooking with the beans, whether they dry beans, or can being, and and I've noticed that there's a lot of recipes that will tell you to soak the beans and then toss the liquid. And the last time I did this. I realized that the liquid that the beans were show in came up a little cloudy and had a you know viscosity to it so I was thinking that this kind of all kinds of good stuff that's coming out of the beans into the water. That's shouldn't just toss down the drain. So I was wondering. What the reasoning is to toss it whether we should toss it, or whether if I making a pot of beans for soup or Stew, especially where the exact amount of water doesn't really matter as much if I shouldn't just toss the beans and the water into the pot. Okay, we like to soak beans overnight or twenty four hours. Just clarify because he said he likes to cope with dried or canned. We're talking about the dry. And? You would use a cups of water and two tablespoons of Kosher Salt. So in that case given the salt level, you would have to toss it. You wouldn't want to cook the beans and the Brian. Number two I'm of the belief, although all scientists totally disagree with me, which never slows me down going flat well. Yeah, in terms of gas I think and I believe that. If you toss that water, you end up in a better place in terms of digestion than if you don't although we did some research on this and nobody has confirmed that's true. In the third thing is I just got back? From Mexico City and I was with a chef were Garcia. Who makes the best being stew in the world? He soaks them for twenty four hours throws out the water. Salted water. No, he doesn't use salt. He uses three times more water than beans once they're soaked and cooks them, but he had a trick which I love. If you want to add meat to your beans like pork, Cook the pork in water, which is what they do in Mexico separately right once it's cooked, take it out and use that cooking liquid for the Houston. The pork for the beans So you've got? Stock, that is amazing because you've made a meat stock right with the pork, and that's going to be a lot more flavorful than whatever watery used. Soak the beans in the last thing I'll just add is he made a cer- Fredo onions garlic, etc, tomato. He cooked that in a skillet for ten minutes, an added that at the end, not at the. So if you want the world's best potter beans beans, you know just cook up a so Frito, but instead of adding it at the beginning. Just top the beans with. Salt, the water had a time I. think that a lot of flavor yeah I mean can I just way in Chris the expert beans, but that the reason for salting the water that you soak them in overnight is twofold. It helps to make the skin of the being more tender, and also it deeply flavors the beam so the being taste. I'm not gonNA say Salty, just more beanie. It just upsets natural taste. You know, but we still haven't addressed the nutrients. How do we feel about that well? It's got so much salt in it. You gotTA. If you salt. It didn't on one hand. We have flatulence or the other hand. We have protein. Sure, you're throwing out some nutrients in. If you're not salting the water I, would say and you know you want to go ahead cooking in the water. It's OAKTON. Jeremy, thank you, thank you. Take Care, bye bye! Thanks. This is. Radio food related question. Give us a ring anytime. Eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three one more time. That's eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three, or email us at questions at Mill Street, radio DOT COM. Welcome to milk street WHO's calling. Hi I'm Sydney. Sydney. Where are you calling from? I'm calling from Los Angeles. How can we help you today? Well I made some crinkle cookies few weeks ago and I had a problem. They didn't crinkle and I tried a few different things with like the dough, but every time they would just really flat, so I was wondering how I can fix that and make them crinkly. Did you do the traditional thing of rolling them in the confectioner's sugar at the end. I did and I thought. I put too much, so I did less, but then they would just kind of like. The sugar melted into them. because. That's what makes them crinkle is the sugar is rolling in the sugar? Because the sugar dries out the cookie you know at the top while the rest of the cookie inside stays moist Chris help help. I'm confused. Is Chocolate crinkle cookie or something else? It's a chocolate crinkle cookie. What's the oven temperature you're baking at? Three fifty. You might try three twenty five because you. The spreading of the DOE that causes the crackling on the top right. So you might try that the other thing you might try you said something about chilling the dough. That's to mean the does not going to separate brand spread so I. Think this is a case sort of unique case where you wouldn't chill the cookies. Does the ball I I? Would think they could be soft and then just throw them in the oven. Those two things I would try. These ending up being pretty thin I mean are the puffed up, or what happens when big well they don't really spread out, so I think that might have been the problem. They were chilled I the ball. They were I. think just don't. Let us know how it goes. I will give that a shot. I think that should solve the problem all right. Thank you so much, thanks! BYE-BYE I. You're listening to extreme radio up next. We're chatting Nicole buyer, comedian and host of nailed that in more in just a moment. This is most your radio I'm your host Christopher Kimball right now. It's my interview with Nicole buyer. She's a comedian. Also host of the net flicks amateur baking competition nailed. Nicole welcome to milk street. Thank you, thank you for having me well. It's a pleasure having you on. You used to wait tables. And you said your customers quote they will give me a lot of money because they were like. You're very funny, and then they would say, but you really bad waiting tables yet. Oh, you! You decided that Improv was really much better career path in Being in the restaurant business. Yeah, I my roommate, if I may friend Jenny was a server, and she made very good money and I was like. How do I make money? And she said well you can serve at my restaurant. I, said okay, and then I quickly found out. I cannot balance a tray. One of my legs is longer than the other so I walk up and down, and I knew this about myself, but I was like holding a trade can't be that hard. When you are knock-kneed, one of your legs longer than the other e will drop almost everything you try to put on a tray I. Would always forget like a kid's meal, so everyone would have their food and be in a corner and that's he wants to eat I so I'd be like sorry. The kitchen always blamed the kitchen and I remembered if tables asked for like a bunch of things like forks and straws and catch up, I'd be like guys I'll come back with one of those things or olive. This things who knows so I made my bed waitressing a game. So that's why people gave me money, and then I found Improv. What was your first night of doing Improv in front of an audience like? My first time I did Improv in front of an audience was a student show. It was like my one on one show. And, so my dad had died in the middle of my Improv class and I was like come. See My improv show before he died and he was like. Okay and then he died in the joke I like to say is my dad. He'd rather die than watch me make stuff up on stage. Some people don't like that joke. I love it will only you can tell that joke. Yeah, but it was like exhilarating, and it was fun, and you didn't know what was going to happen, and that was addicting, and then I realized that I love being on stage I I love it. I need it I. Crave it. It was amazing you said about that doing Improv after you're dead, you said didn't have to be me. I could go on stage and be hey like. I'm an elephant. was that something that. was relevant just at that time after your father died or is that just something that you love about being onstage? I mean I think it ties into a lot of things in my life. My mother died when I was in high school in a play. So I didn't have to deal with my mother's death for like you know the two hours that play rehearsal was happening in highschool, so that was. A wonderful escape because I mean nobody really knows how to talk to a sixteen year old about their mother died. My Dad didn't know how to do it like my sister wasn't equipped because she was a only a year and a half older than me so. It was therapeutic to have something right in. Have to be me. And People were like you're funny and you're talented so like that. Positive affirmations made me feel better. So when it happened with my dad, it was kind of like a saving grace I think. The universe knew that I needed a performance outlet in order to grieve properly or get a moment to step out from grieving so. It feeds into each other like it was a way for me to grieve away from you to escape, but then also thing that I needed and nothing that I love. So now your show nailed it baking competition where everybody ends in disaster. It's an odd, but. Oddly wonderful combination. Between you is shocked. Torres your compatriot, the the series chef on the show Baker on the show. How does that work exactly? So when I got the job. I told them I didn't know anything about baking. Add No prior knowledge about. spaking Castries, nothing and they were like great. We love it. And I didn't get to meet Jacques before filming. And they call me and they were just like your your marks. Here's the camera. Here's where the prompt will be, and here's Jacques. Torres and I was like Hello Jacques. Torres and I mean I didn't do any research I didn't know a single thing about this man, and talking to him I was like Oh. My God. He seems to know so much also he's really kind, and then I was like this old Frenchman. This old white Frenchman he's GonNa like my jokes, but I said something like real filthy, and he laughed so hard, and he goes unequal. Who out your funny and I was like? Oh. We me in this older gentleman have the same sense of humor. We think the same things are funny and then I went home after that first day. It was like wow, this man was kind funny. Liked me and really smart and a joy to be around so then I like looked him up and I was like holy. This man is like a world, renowned pastry chef, who is baked cooked for famous people and has had his own television show I was like Oh my God. He didn't know I was sitting next to this man. That is like so well respected like he's just like. I don't now. It's one of those things where like I don't have parents, so the universe place is older people in my life who are parent like an? He's one of those people and he is just. He's treated me so kind and so well. His wife is so kind and so nice to me. I'm very blessed to have them in my life, which sounds very cheesy, but I am very grateful for him. He does look very kind, but what's so interesting about the show is. You look like you should be hosting the show I mean it's it makes perfect sense to me and he he kind of looks sometimes like how exactly that I the show yeah, I mean. Why am I here I? Don't get it I said to him I. Think it was season four. I was like. Don't you find it ironic that you're a highly decorated well respected pastry chef, and you make money eating trash. Then he had a lovely genuine answer, and he was like. Yes, but I get to teach and I was like yeah man. You're just like the best eleven great. So, your show nailed it. Really. Very. Few people nail right, yeah. So what's the dynamic of a show? All the contestants are kind of losers. The you must have an understanding of how they're actually winners on some level. I mean. I think I don't think any of them are losers because they're all trying something that they've never done and like people, people always go. Oh, I can do that better. Can You I? Don't I don't believe you so like these people don't know how to bake. We give them time limits. We asked them to recreate this insane thing and there's eight cameras in front of them. And then there's me a comedian that they might know might not know screaming at them so i. fully understand how you would freak out under that kind of pressure. It's crazy. What about the end of the show so the goal here is is to win the competition. How do you resolve it at the end when you reveal each of the cakes? When time's up. They reveal them one by one. We critique them, and then we wait, and then taste them at the judges table, and then after we taste them, we decide who the winner is. Based on looks and tastes in a lot of time, taste will help some like if all three look insane and we're like Oh none of these look great. Then we go, we go taste, and then sometimes when they all taste insane. Like this is the wildest thing I've ever put my mouth than we go on looks. So? What is the favorite part of your job on the show? I think my favorite part is. Amy In when they let me do whatever I want. Yeah like the comedy is my favorite part of the job it's. One of those things where I don't know anything about baking, nor do I really care about baking? I'm just trying to make jokes, but I have to judge baking show so that that's my game like I asked. Can I roll off the judges table on the last day? They were like. Oh, ha, ha, ha, Nicole and I said no I really WANNA. Judges, table and they were like all right because they. The winning got me a big stunt pad and West was like all right, Nicole. Here's how you roll, and I was like you. Dumdum I know how to roll off a table, or are you kidding? I. I love physical comedy then westwards like I'm just trying to be safe and I was your Dave. West truly the little sister. That man has never asked for, but. I roll up the table. Roll all the way to the Pantry I. Still think it's really funny. I just love when they leave my Jackson. Job. You talked about. Rehearsal a joke. If you stand up comic for a couple of years, finally goes on the special. Are You surprised? I assume you are sometimes about what works in front of an audience. What doesn't. Oh Yeah Oh, absolutely mystified. Sometimes also you'll tell a joke that kills in front of one crowd and literally fifteen minutes later. You'll walk into like the Improv is two rooms, so you'll tell it in one room and it kills you. Walk into the second room and it dead silent, and you're like what the happen. And then you have to work backwards because you're like I. Know This joke works. I gotTA. Make it work for the people, so yeah, it's surprises me all the time. You're on James Corden. Show Mike Michael Douglas sitting next to you. Yes I just loved I was watching you then I started looking at him and he was like he didn't know what to do with. The so uncomfortable I thought it was just the camera should have been on him time, not you. It's just talk about that. 'cause bet. He looked like he wanted to be somewhere else, yeah he. I think it was one of those things where he just he didn't understand how to respond to me. He didn't know what to do with me and I encounter that a lot, but he did. Tell me I was funny during a commercial break, which was very kind. So, when someone says comedies, really about discovering some sort of you know eternal truth about the human condition. Is that complete utter nonsense, or is there some shoes to that? I think there's some truth to it. I mean I'm not like George. Carlin where I'm like here are the truths of the world, and it's a rant, but I do like to pepper in a little bit of like. Like in my special I talk about slavery and stuff and people touching my hair and I think those are like things that everyone can relate to or whatever, but yeah I think it's like you're talking about the human condition in like what we all find funny. The call it spend. An extraordinary pleasure! Having you street, thank you for having me. That was actress and comedian Nicole buyer. She's the host of Netflix's speaking. Competition nailed. Entertainment and food seem made for each other, but in the early days of the Food Network. That was a questionable proposition. Today however, on shows such as nailed it or chopped cooking has become a successful medium for almost any type of entertainment from drama to game show. Back in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, four I told Schoenfeld founder food network that is idea would never more. Well one of US laughed all the way to the bank. Chat with Lynn Clark about this week's recipes Spanish grilled vegetables. Lynn, how are you I'm great Chris, so vegetables on the grill are always afterthought except in Spain, where they have a history and tradition of cooking vegetables, actually on the Coles, because they want to get some nice on the outside, a Lotta smokey flavor, so let's take that concept of getting smokey almost charred vegetables on the outside off of a backyard barbecue grill right so usually when we cooked vegetables especially on the grill. We kind of treat them very delicately. What we're GONNA do here. Sort of flip the script on them and treat them like the. The meat we would also probably be grilling at the same time that we're cooking the vegetables, so we're GONNA create a two level grill. One side is going to be very hot. It's going to be over high heat. The other side is going to be off. That's going to allow us to get a lot of char on the vegetables, but then move them to the cooler side of the grill, so they can fully cooked through and get nice and tender. That's how we cook steak, and so we're going to do the same thing with our vegetables. So using eggplant and you WANNA use Japanese eggplant here typical use a globe eggplant. We've found a Japanese. EGGPLANT is smaller, so it's going to cook faster thinner skins. You don't have to peel it less prep. Red Bell pepper onion, two ways, red onion cut into wedges and scallions, those all get tossed with olive oil, sweet or Hot Paprika and salt and pepper that sits while the guerrillas eating, so it gets them nice flavor on it, and the big thing here is you don't want to be worried about getting too dark. You really want that on the vegetables Nice smokey smokey flavor. They come off the heat. We chop them up into bite size pieces while we love that Char. It didn't need a little bit of balance, so we added some Cherry Tomatoes Sherry Vinegar. Garlic and honey, so we balance that out with a little bit of sweetness and acidity, and really goes nicely with a lot of that smoky char off the vegetables, so I can burn my vegetables and I'm doing it right exactly the perfect recipe for me. Thank you win. This is a great way to grill your vegetables in the summer. This is s Kalamata, which comes from Spain of course, which is smoky, grilled vegetables. Thank you welcome. You can get this recipe at one seven seven MILK STREET DOT com. You're listening to Milky Radio coming up Jay. Kenji Lopez explains how to make the best fried rice using whatever scraps you have in the fridge. We'll be right back. This is Radio Christopher Kimball next up? Sara Moulton I will be answering a few more of your cooking questions. Welcome to milk street. WHO's calling? Hi, this is Olivia Nowinski from North Wales Pennsylvania. What is your question today? Well I'm calling because I was making a pork shoulder and in researching recipes I was seeing different finishing times for the pork to be at correct temperature as low as one, forty, five and a high. Five and I got. Confused as to why that might be a thought I reach out to you that well. The thing is that depending on what cut you're using and pork shoulder you muscle that's used a lot, and it needs to go low and slow, and ultimately reach a higher temperature, the one forty five in you probably looked at a generic answer for pork, Loin, or tenderloin, which are not tough cuts of meat, and you do want to cook them less because otherwise they will just dry out completely. Completely because they don't have the connective tissue in the fat, the pork shoulder does or cry trick noces. I've seen anywhere from one thirty seven and one forty is the temperature at which it's killed, and it's not the big issue it used to be so you know when you're dealing with those lower fat leaner meats, you really WanNa take them only to you know, say about one forty because of carry over cooking time Chris. Let's talk about trick analysis one of my favorite topics. Almost all the trick analysis cases of which I think twenty, a year or something comes from Squirrel. How do you know that I looked it up once a master of useless information but I totally agree with Sarah that connective tissue if you do. A pig rose for example which I used to do August every year. You want the pork to be fall apart tender, and that's not going to happen at one forty. That's going to happen at one eight, hundred five to two hundred somewhere in that range so I agree with Sarah that. You really want to cook that, but at pork tenderloin. Has No connective tissue. You're going to cook like beef tenderloin. Okay, that's great to know I ended up actually cooking it to that higher number accidentally, my shoulder was done much sooner than I expected, but it was that perfect like pull apart texture so I was glad that that's what I went with Oh. Well happy ending, you could also throw pork shoulder. I do it every once a month into a slow cooker, using a pressure cooker in the pot whatever? Cooks in an hour less and know cube the meat into instructs first, and then you have this great. He can do anything with Tacos or whatever you want, but that's another way of doing it high and fast, but it does a good job, and if you want to Cook Squirrel, you can call stuff. We are got a mother that in a good French sauce and you're all set to go. Squirrel is up next. Yeah, not sure. I'm ready for that, but I'll keep you guys in mind if I ever do without the score call one eight hundred squirrel. Take care. Bye. This is most radio. If you're finding yourself stump to the kitchen, please give us a ring. Eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three, one, more time, eight, five, five, four, two, six, nine, eight, four, three, or email us at questions at milk street radio DOT COM. Welcome to street WHO's calling hi. This is Mike I'm from. Indiana how can we help you? Well? I had I had an interesting question to me. That has to do with my methodology. If you will I run a MAC and cheese business. And a couple of my recipes I feel like would be enhanced by some brown butter. And I seem to not be able to hit the mark on that especially if I'm cooking over flame, it's a lot different, so I'm just wondering if there's some tips and tricks on how to get like per brown butter. How much butter you trying to brand one time for this commercial operation sounds like a lot of butter at once right for two sauce I'm probably making somewhere around eight to twelve sticks of butter. What kind of Panty you cooking in? Honestly one of the name brands I've gotten at like cold. It's given me. A lot of good moments and a lot of bad moments is the bottom of the Pan dark-colored, or is it a bright stainless steel Lebron's famous deal. And this is a or Panera skillet does it'd be a saucepan finally over what kind of heat are you using I? Start my sauces normally. A medium low to medium just to Kinda. Simmer the butter but I feel like I'm gonNA butter the sauce. I'll start with just the brown butter and I know where to start I. Think you WANNA start medium low. Okay, if you use lower heat, you have a little more time to get it off, so we start the foam and the foam moves down right right? You smell that toasted flavor. You have about a nanosecond to get it off because it's going gonNA, keep cooking. So one thing you could try is if it starts to go, get it off. He quickly and then use a wooden spoon of some kind and stir it, and then it will continue to Brown's slowly her using the right Pan Sarah. What do you think? Do you cut the sticks into tablespoons do not. If all the pieces were smaller, and all the pieces went in at the same time. I think. Also it would all sort of brown more evenly. I also agree with Chris one hundred percent once you see that it's just about there. You just get right off the burner or even pour it into another container. Okay, another thing. I WANNA try a skillet or Saute Pan? And try to not crowd the Pan so that it's all getting the same heat at the same time in the same space that sounds like a great direction. I really appreciate you taking the time to even help me out here. I really do I just WanNa comment that I think browning butter for Mac and cheese is a brilliant idea. Well cool I'm glad to hear that you less than your company Assam Mike Am. We're called Mike and Cheese. So we're a MAC and cheese truck. We've been around for about a year now. We're making some moves so I figured I'd start getting my recipes. You know really right and I. Really WanNa. Start well people so I. Think Everybody's got yeah I do, too. For. Yes, take care, thanks. Bye Bye. Welcome to milk street. WHO's calling? Hi, my name is Greg. And where are you calling from I'm in Los Angeles I'm very happy to speak to both of you. And how can we help you in the process of getting better at cooking and reading books? I've gotten to know some chefs. And most of the time when I'm talking to them I understand everything you're talking about, and the the one thing that they constantly are telling me that I do not understand. Is that they all use Y peelers over swivel peelers. One of these chefs Fars to tell me that the civil peeler is like the amateur night of Peelers, and that would be like like shame in a kitchen for using one. Well, you know what I would say to. That I'm sorry I. Just don't put up with that nonsense. A civil healer uses peeler I mean. There's some sort of being in vantage with it. Is there a reason that ships preferred them that their preferred in kitchen like every time I use it. There's an awkwardness to holding. It feel more likely to cut myself when peeling like down work with. Is there some advantage with that I don't understand I. Don't use it why shape or anymore I know. A lot of people in kitchens have been around. Do like them to be honest with you. I think it's a little fashion. Easter you know I think it's just like it's cool to have it cheap, bright, red, or yellow Bieler in your pocket and your chefs coat. I don't think so I use other kinds. Appeals use a separate appeal are actually that straight? It's an Oxo. Good Grips, one and I find. That's terrific. I like the bigger handle I'm using a cute like the recon civil peeler, which is also a series Swivel Eela that's great, but I guess I was sort under the impression that in kitchen. If you're on the line, that's the civil for in terms of like your Pratt got is the standard go to, but maybe that's not the case. It depends what kind of kitchen you're in and I think people in Kitchens really don't care as long as you get the job done quickly, and well I know like in a French BR system. You have to address your cutting board and the right way, and you have to hold your knife in the right way and everything else, but. Most other kitchens I know anything about and Sarah knows more about it than I do. You get the job done to get the job done right. I don't think anyone's going to worry about a why peeler versus swivel right I worked in restaurants in the United States for seven years I don't ever remember there being this. Fight over what kind of peeler agree with Chris is completely silly. There should be no cook shaming you know I if if you're starting with fresh ingredients and you're prepping from scratch. That's all that matters. That's fantastic. Don't put up with it. Just say it works for you. As dealt with my mother-in-law, my mother taught me to just be vague and say oh. That's interesting Oh. Very interesting so there you go, wait wait a minute, Sarah you say that to me all the time. Dear Chris. Audio dear. Excellent AMMO for next time. I read into these people I will definitely use this arguments. Yeah, besides which you not working in a kitchen. You don't have five hundred pounds of. Potatoes, or whatever so how you WanNa, do it at home with differences and say whatever works you. It's the guy who cares. All right. Thank you guys very much right there. Okay! Bye! Bye Bye! This is most radio now. It's time for some culinary wisdom from one of our listeners. my name. Is Cathy Lewis from in California and my cooking tip is about how to cut an onion without crying. After cutting the un-union half immediately, wipe the cutting board knife with a wet paper towel to remove any onion juices, then peel the onion have in the sink under constant running cold water. Chopping the first half wipe the cutting board and ninth again and cover the bowl of chopped onions with a wet paper towel as you chop the other half, keep the wet paper towel over the bowl of chopped onions until they're needed in your recipe. Happy Cooking. If you'd like to share your own cooking tip on most radio, please go to one seven seven milk street dot com slash radio tips. Next up its food science writer. J Kenji Lopez out. So can you have you been thinking about this week? well I've been cooking a lot of fried rice recently. Actually because fried rice is something that I well I, tend to make it a lot because I frequently have bits of odds and ends in the Fridge and Fried Rice is one of those dishes that is just sort of ideal for using up your fridge scraps, so I've been I've been testing a lot about what makes good, fried rice What you have to do to the rice to make it ideal for cooking. Testing the old wisdom that day-old Rice is the best which turns out is actually true. What I did was I got all different types of rice and then I tried frying some immediately tried resting some overnight. I tried wrestling. Some covered I tried wrestling uncovered and what I found is that the real important thing with fried rice is that the external part of each grain of rice is dry? It doesn't really matter if the whole grain is dry. What matters is that? The outside is dry, so if you have day-old rice and it's already started to dry out on the surface that makes great fried rice, but if you WANNA have fried rice. Rice on the same day you can cook your rice and then take it out. Spread it on like a half inch, thick layer so on a sheet tray, and then leave it out like that, and if you WANNA speed it up, can fan it a little bit point fan at it, and that's what prevents it from sticking to itself what you don't want to do. Which is what I found? Is that anywhere between like an hour and six hours or so that window of time? That's the worst time to fry your rice. That's when it sort of gets clumpy and Mushy, and and really clumps up so either you want to fry your rice like right after you cook your racing. Let let it air dry or you WanNa do it next day. Okay, so I have some questions so in terms of actually frying the rice. I've done it. I've seen it done. In Thailand, the places do have a method that you think is superior, or does it really not matter I? Think a walk is the best thing to stir fry in as opposed to sort of a Western skillet. When you're doing at home, the tips I would be. Break up your rice first before it goes into the Pan, and then just as with any, stir fry at home. You know your home burn. It doesn't get as hot as a restaurant, so you really want to go in batches so I would say like no more than a half pound stuff at a time and so usually. What I'll do is whatever mix I have so. So like vegetable scraps I cut him into. You know if I have like some yesterday I made some fried rice with some asparagus, and some snap peas that I sliced on a bias and some mushroom so I sauteed those all I in the walk. Stir Fry Them I. Take Him out, then reheat. The walk again cooked half the rice. Take it out again. Cook the next half the price and then finally dump everything together. And personally I tend to go easy on the on the sausage. I sometimes even like just a fried rice. That just has salt and a little bit of white pepper. Night even with any soy sauce oyster sauce, but of course it can soya sauce, oyster, sauce, fish sauce, but whatever you do, you WanNa easy with it so that it doesn't sorta like steam, 'cause the race clump up one new thing that I've been trying for. My Book is actually trying to capture that walk. Hey, flavor that smokiness that you get from using a really high powered walk burner, and the way I do that is by using a blowtorch kind of blow point the blowtorch into the walk while I toss it with the other hand, and so the flames from the blow torch singer, the fat as you're tossing things and it. Creates those sort of burnt smokey flavors that you get from really high heat typical cooking from a restaurant that you can't really recreate at home, otherwise it. Takes some practice to of course in. and. You probably want to take out an extra insurance policy, but the great thing about is that it works both on an electric, an induction end with a guest up, so whatever type of cooked up you have. You can actually get that waquet flavor which? I think otherwise it's impossible to capture. Are you hopeful your publisher will allow you to put that in the book? By a couple thousand people. And their house burns down. They haven't said anything so far, so I think we're good. We'll see. Can you just for one second talk about walkway that? Unique Aroma. So, it's very similar to the flavor that you get when you're cooking a hamburger on a outdoor grill versus in a skillet so on an outdoor grill, the fat and juice from the hamburger are dripping off, and then as they fall into the coles the oils immediately singe vaporize, and they've redeposit some of those burnt byproducts of the surface of the Burger and that's what gives it that SORTA smoky grilled flavor. Kenji Lopez all. Thank you very much how to cook with Leftover Rice. Don't use it for the first six hours. You're good to go. Thank you, thank you. That was J Kenji Lopez. He's the chief culinary consultant for serious eats the food columnist for the New York Times also author of the Food Lab. I. Don't blame Julia Child. Cooking used to be with the exception of emperors, kings and royalty a frugal every day fair. It was fried rice or throw together flat bread Grain Porridge Simple soups and then amazing wave preserve foods. Thanks to the necessity preservation. And the scrappy practical approach both local and also personal Julia singlehandedly got America cookie again, but with an important cuisine when that was deeply personal to her. The lessons of the past. I think clear. Cooking thrives when it speaks to our soul to heritage to or landscape. Cooking is not a hobby. It's a way of life. That's it for today. If you tuned in to later just WANNA listen again you can download and subscribe to millstreet radio and Apple. PODCASTS spotify or wherever you find your podcasts to learn more about milk street. Please go to one seven seven MILL STREET DOT com. There you can download each recipe. Watch the latest season of our television, show or order our latest cooked milk street fast and slow instant pot cooking at the speed you need. You can also find us on facebook at Christopher Kimble's milk street on instagram and twitter at one seven seven milk street. You'll be back next week. Thanks as always felicity. Christopher Kimble's milk. Street radio is produced by milk story. In Association with W.. G. B. H. Executive Producer Melissa Bongino senior audio editor Melissa Allison. Co, executive producer Andy, sensabaugh associate producer Jackie noack. Production Assistant Sarah. Clap and production help from W. Paddock senior audio engineer David Goodman additional editing from Vicky Sydney Lewis. 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