8 Episode results for "Megan Squire"
The Evolution of All-American Terrorism
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One hundred percent human collection is donating all proceeds to feeding America's covid nineteen. Response Fund check out our collection at ever leaned dot com slash reveal, plus you'll get free shipping on your first order. That's ever lean dot com slash reveal ever lane dot com slash reveal. From the Center for investigative reporting and PR X. VIS is reveal. I'm outlets. Over the past month protests have helped. Give unprecedented. To the issue of police brutality, but right wing extremists are also trying to seize the moment at black lives. Matter Rally in Richmond Virginia, a man, claiming to be a K. K.. K. leader drove his truck into a group of protesters. In Oakland California man, who follows the online bigalow movement, allegedly shot and killed federal officer. They want to kick off chaos. They want to start the race war, and so they're always waiting for some chaotic events to happen. That will help them. Kick this off. Megan Squire is a computer scientist who studies online extremism at Ilan University in North Carolina. She seen firsthand how the recent wave of protests and counter protests can get out of control. Control so one protesting the removal of confederate monuments recently punched her in the face Megan says right wing extremists are using what's in the news to spread their message. They tracked pretty closely to whatever the news headlines are, and what they do is provide the racist anti-semitic. Fill in the blank spin on that news. All of these blue systems are like big funnels. They have a variety of ways of recruiting people into them. That's David. Reporter with the nonprofit newsroom type investigations a few years ago, revealed teamed up with type two track every single domestic terror event from two thousand eight to twenty sixteen. It showed that law enforcement was focused on extremist acting in the name of Islam, but homegrown right wing terror was a bigger threat by nearly two to one margin. We're trying to make the point that really. Rightwing extremism is much bigger problem than Islamist extremism and the government needs to be paying attention to now. We've updated the database to include a tax from twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen. We found that white extremist terror has grown and become more lethal responsible for almost the same number of deaths during the first three years of the trump presidency as during all of the Obama years. And the right wing extremists appear to target different groups. Many are driven by the same ideology. There's a very specific stripe of white nationalism that were seen run through especially these more recent mass killings today we're going to connect the DOTS and show how one act of tear inspires another thanks to online platforms, and we'll ask why law enforcement is still struggling to catch up. Reveal reporters Stan Cornyn Priska neely have been digging into this for months. PRISCO STARTS US off with the story of a man who witnessed the deadliest domestic terror attack from last year. Guillermo Glenn is well known in El Paso's Mexican American community. He's seventy nine now, and he's been a community organizer and labor rights activist for most of his life. We conducted a of protests. We blocked the bridge. We went to jail on August third twenty nineteen. He was just going about his weekend routine. It was a Saturday morning. Right in around ten o'clock so. Go to Walmart to buy some pet food and I was way in the back and I heard his great big noise. A warning gamma was going to share graphic details about what happened that day. A large number of families, women and men were running towards me from the front of the building. And I noticed at least one of the women was dripping blood as it well, there's something really wrong. I ran into the woman who is she had both her legs had received some type of this shrapnel or bullet wounds, and she was bleeding, so I stopped. There to help her in by grabbed the. Prostate, kit and try to. Tend to her wounds legs. One of the firemen paramedics came and you. You have to get her out. We're getting everybody out of the store. So. We put her in in one of those grocery baskets. When he wheeled the woman to the front, he saw what had happened. Right at the front door, there was a lot of blood. I knew then that they've been a shooter. It was a very dramatic scene. I saw the body of a man with. Half his head shot off. There was a lady lane on the payment across from where we're loading the people. XACTLY! who had taken out loans. I did how that information that he was actually shooting Mexicans. The suspected gunman, twenty one year, old Patrick crews drove roughly ten hours from outside Dallas to the El Paso Walmart right near the Mexican border police say he opened fire. Twenty three people were killed and many were wounded. And then he drove off minutes later Patrick crucial stopped his car at an intersection near the Walmart, he came out with his hands, raised in the air, and stated out loud to the Texas Rangers. I'm the shooter. He's facing ninety federal charges including forty five heat crimes. After Ghirma witness what happened that day he got in his car and went to the restaurant where his friends always gather on Saturdays several. My friends came and hug me and say Oh, you're okay. We're so glad we've been looking for you without. Doing might be there. And then they showed me the manifesto. The manifesto minutes before the attack, the shooter at posted a document filled with anti immigrant rhetoric to the online message board eight Chan some of gear. Most friends showed him a copy, so I sit down. I had some food at some my regular Saturday menudo. And, then I finally realized what had happened right after I read the manifesto. Crucial manifesto reads kind of like a corporate website. It has an about me section and parts where he outlines his warped vision for America. He matter of factly explains how his attack will preserve a world where white people have the political and economic power. He says peaceful means will no longer achieve his goal. Reporter David were says this alleged shooter is the quintessential trump era terrorist. A man largely radicalized online entrenched in white nationalist ideology and fueled by the belief that white men like himself are being replaced by Latino immigrants crucial wrote that the media would blame president trump for inspiring him, but he claimed that his ideas predated the trump campaign. Here's David Painter. Crucial especially was so filled with loathing for Latino people that he didn't see them as human. When David reads the manifesto, he can immediately see the fingerprints of other white nationalists. Here's have crusius opens his manifesto. In general I support the Christ church shooter and his manifesto. This attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas. They are the instigators, not me. I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion that opening line is a direct signal back to a previous act of terrorism. The shooter who killed fifty one people at two mosques in Christchurch New Zealand just months before. David says this is part of a trend. One terrorist inspires another and the cycle continues. Gear Mo says he didn't understand all of the references at first, but it was clear to him that the manifesto had ties to a larger movement. I think he was trying to show that somebody had to take action in. That really angered me at that point. In Hawaii, would somebody come in shoot? Innocent people like that. David says crew started doing online research because of the anger. He felt over how the country was changing demographically. Doing this research. He came across. Multiple quite genocide theories including the great replacement. Great Replacement or replacement theory unites many acts of hate that we see across the country around the world, and that's this idea that comes out of nationalism. That white Europeans face a global genocide at the hands of Brown people and that they're being slowly rubbed out of existence. Only a few terrorists in recent years have referenced replacement theory by name, but it's widely popular among right wing extremists. It's linked to ideas that are many decades old, but one attack in Europe showed how those ideas can be weaponized. Andres brave ix terrorism attack in Oslo a new Toy Island Norway. In Two thousand eleven. Bribery killed seventy seven people in a bombing in mass shooting. Before the attack, he sent out a fifteen hundred page manifesto about how he planned to lead white supremacists on a crusade against the quote, Islamic vacation of Europe. Around the same time, a French writer named Renaud Camus refined and popularized the ideology in a book. The title translates to the Great Replacement and the Great Replacement Essentially Society. That Brown people, particularly refugees and immigrants from Arab countries in Europe are being deliberately brought into the country in order to replace white people as the chief demographics and the conspiracy theory claims all this is orchestrated by Kabbalah of nefarious globalists'. That's code for Jews, not replace. In August. Twenty seventeen white supremacists in the US took up this concept as a rallying cry at the unite the right rally in Charlottesville Virginia. The next day a neo. Nazi drove his car into a crowd. And thirty two year old heather. Higher This incident had an immediate impact on the public perception of terrorism, making it clear that white nationalist violence is a serious threat today. The nightmares hit home here in the city of Pittsburgh. At a Pittsburgh Synagogue in two thousand eighteen Robert Bowers is accused of killing eleven people. He went to a Jewish synagogue because he was angry about the latin-american Caravans, the caravans had been in all the news in the weeks prior to that synagogue attack, you know. He blamed Jews and went to drew synagogue to take revenge for Latino Immigration. These are the ideologies that are sick zagging across the globe. In March twenty nineteen, but gunmen who live streamed his mass shooting in Christ's Church New Zealand on facebook also wrote a manifesto. The title. The great replacement. The New Zealand Manifesto inspired the El Paso shooter to target the people he felt were replacing him. Recent manifestos and books put a new spin on violent hateful acts, but David traces these sentiments back much further. What's remarkable in a Lotta ways when I read, these manifestos is so many of them are expressing ideas that I read in the nineteen twenty s coming from Genesis. Look I would even take back to the eighteen ninety S. When I started seeing the wave of Lynch scenes in the south as a form of social control, this is very clearly a form of terrorism. After the El Paso shooting activist skier Glenn Says White. Supremacist ideology was barely part of the conversation. There were brief efforts to unite the community against hate. A few events held under the banner. El Paso strong the politicians, the businessmen the mayor. Everybody was pushing this idea that we address survive. But they weren't really talking about who caused it. Or why. Before. We talked for this story Guillermo says he didn't identify as part of this larger group of survivors that includes Jewish and Muslim communities. You know you say well, it's. It's the Jewish people that they attacked. It's the Muslim people that attacked. And you're on the border Mexican and Central Americans. But nobody talks about what does the great replacement mean? Nobody put all these incidences together and say hey. This is something that we should be aware of nationally. And he says that's part of the failure. Heart of the reason, these attacks keep happening. That story from reveals Friskin neely. As. We've been saying these extremist groups are using online communities to spread their messages and find new recruits. When we come back, we'll hear how it works. It's a conditioning process. It's a grooming process, and I let myself fall into that. The evolution of the White Supremacist Internet next on reveal. Reveal is supported by true botanical 's. Life is full of tough choices and tradeoffs. Your beauty routine what you put on your body. Every day shouldn't be one of them. True. Botanical 's uses the latest scientific advances and centuries old botanical extracts to create all natural formulas and their products like they're hydrating face, cleansers and face oils for aging breakout, prone and sensitive skin and nutrient packed to serum. You've got to try true tentacles for yourself. Get fifteen percent off your first purchase at true panicles dot com slash reveal. That's true. Botanical Garden Com slash reveal. From, the Center for investigative reporting NPR x this is reveal I'm alison. The FBI and academic researchers say there's no such thing as a terrorist profile. You can't tell who's going to become terrorists with a personality tests or demographic checklist. But the young white men who attacked the synagogues of Pittsburgh and Powei and the Walmart. No Paso. They had a lot in common, not only were they motivated by the same conspiracy theory about why people being replaced, they developed those ideas in some of the same spaces online to them, even posted their manifestos to the same website. Now. You can't blame today's white supremacist terrorism on the Internet, but you also can't understand it without talking about the way. The White Supremacist Movement uses the Internet and how that's changed over the last decade. Reveals. Stan alcorn is going to tell that story through the eyes of a man who lived it here, stand. Josh Bates Decade as a white supremacist started in his mid twenty s with a youtube video about the presidential candidate. He says he supported at the time Iraq, Obama. I was scrolling through the comments section. You know he's a Muslim. He wasn't or year. Things of that nature at somebody said you guys sound like those storm front assholes. The world's storm from. Storm Front is a message board that a former KKK leader set up in the nineties. Josh says he went there at first because he was curious than to argue. But then the middle aged message board neo. Started winning him over. How could they be convincing in these arguments like? Can you help me understand that? I wish I can answer that question. Is still ask myself that allow I ended up falling for something like that, but I guess. Similar to how we look at people who fall into calls, you know it's a conditioning process. It's a grooming process and I. Let Myself Fall into that. The experts I talked to say that first step is more about the person than what they're stepping into. Josh had just left the Marines. Where used to have a team and the mission. Now all we had was computer. It's pretty concurrent with a whole lot of people where they felt really deeply disempowered in their lives Shimin Martinez is a former white supremacist who helped people including Josh. Leave the movement, and so when you encounter information that's presented that this is like the real truth, the true truth people don't want you to have because if you did, it would be to empowering for you and to disempowering for them like. Like. That's an incredibly powerful like toxic drug. That drug widely available on the Internet is at its heart, a conspiracy theory. It says your problems aren't your fault. It's immigrants Black People Jews they talk about Oh no Hollywood and the media all these Jews there in these positions of power, and you know when you google that kind of stuff you see, and you consume it eventually after a few months. Kinda get desensitized to it and everybody's agreeing with everyone for the most part you you get along. There's online community. Star was Kinda my first one. He didn't know their names, but they were his team. Now it's been the next ten years as what he calls a keyboard warrior for the white. Supremacist, movement, he'd be there for every step in its evolution from joining the K. k. k. and the Neo Nazi National Socialist Movement to more diffuse groups and websites that called themselves all right and identity -Tarian Some of these groups would go to some lengths to appear respectable and say we're not racist. We're not Nazis. We're not the KKK. And then some of those groups were Nazis. They were the K. k. k. and you were in all of them. Does that tell you that? The differences between these groups are more about that image and the tactics than absolutely the core ideas, or they attract? Absolutely, we've been using the terms white nationalism, onepointoh nationalism, two point Oh for a few years now and one point Oh is your. Early Groups Cook clan. They're very explicit associates. Movement waterhouse, whilst goes on their uniforms under flaxen. Your two point Oh guys. They're your identity. Oba's where dressing in. Khakis. Collared Shirts doc shoes. They got these nice cropped haircuts. They call it good optics. Anybody, who was in the early one point? Oh movements like myself I can see right through. They just put lipstick on a pig solid. But people who followed the White Supremacist Movement for decades like type investigations reporter David. They say that this all right makeover of the old racist right. It was transformative that radical right was very backward looking jerry stiff and formal. They didn't have any humor was not part of their repertoire. In fact, their primary recruitment demographic really was mandatory in the ages of forty and sixty with the advent of the alright, what we saw was this very tech savvy, very agile movement that instead of running away from sort of the culturally savvy component aspects of the Internet rather embraced them holy instead of writing racist newsletters that people had to sign up for. They were making memes, jokes and places like read it and four Chan and these forums that celebrated being politically incorrect. They're the perfect place for those ideas. Ideas to take root hybridize with other fringe ideas and grow into something that could be shared on more mainstream platforms like twitter and facebook, and it was. You know very brilliant, because it meant that suddenly the recruitment demographic was much larger, and had you know lot more political activists energy They were younger, people and Josh. Bates says that energy got a huge boost in two thousand sixteen with the rise of a new presidential candidate. They're bringing drugs. They bring in crime. Their rapists and some I assume are good people because trump was spouting off a lot of the same talking points as general white nationalist. He breathed new life into that move. And the thought leaders of the movement just took full advantage. Second, take him further and they did. They started to take their ideas into the real world. After trump's election in twenty seventeen computer scientists, Megan Squire setup software to track extremists on facebook. She started out studying the misogynist Gamer Gate Movement, but that it letter to all of these different anti Muslim and neo confederate and white supremacist groups at the time facebook was as central player, if not the central player in It was the place where these guys all wanted to be. Nice looking for Crossover Ideological Crossover Group Membership Crossover. Just, trying to I. Guess map that ecosystem of hate on facebook. She watched this ecosystem plan. What one neo Nazi website would call the summer of hate? Anti Muslim marches, misogynist proud boy rallies, and what was shaping up to be this real world Mita of all these different, mostly online hate groups the unite the right rally in Charlottesville Virginia. And this is where she came across Josh, Bates. There was a person who was talking about. They didn't have enough money to go to Charlottesville. And someone else suggested. Hey, we have this crowd funding site. Why don't you set up a fundraiser when Megan Click link? She saw this whole list of white supremacist fundraisers on a website. Josh had built because go fund me had started cutting them off. It was the beginning of what Megan calls all tech at the time we're talking about. Tech was basically just replacements that were coated and controlled by people, probably in the movement or close to the momentum at least like didn't care about waste practices using their services, so they're replacing Patriot patriotic. It's kind of a one to one match there, but when it came to advertising the rally the outright. Outright didn't need all tech. They had a facebook event page and it was being promoted by hate groups that facebook had allowed to remain on the site even after they were reported by civil rights advocates I. Mean I'm a solo researcher with a laptop in rural North Carolina. And I was able to find well over two thousand hate groups operating on Facebook, and like a couple of months so. I don't have sympathy that facebook in know it was happening. Ray like that's ridiculous. NAGIN decided to go to the rally in person in part to see if this convergence of hate she was seeing on. facebook would happen in real life. Josh Bates. Went for the same reason. Never! History of white nationalism. Many people. All showing up with one place you had. Sam Klamath Roba all these groups all the groups that you've ever been a member of yet pretty much, and when you see that many people show up to support a common cause, it kind of fills you up a little bit with maybe a little enthusiasm. Maybe this isn't die. Maybe this. Maybe this could go forward. That's exactly right I believe that. That's exactly why after shut that stuff. 'CAUSE! This is not the kind of people we need to be amassing power. The rally wasn't shut down. But when it turned violent and a white supremacist killed heather higher reporter David, says this whole plan to unite the racist right backfired. All of these groups started. Splitting is huge infighting over whether they did the right thing, and in fact, the social media platforms. Taking it seriously although. That seriousness varied from platform to platform. Reminded me of Lake, when you. Catch a kid doing something that not supposed to be doing and all of a sudden. They're incredibly sorry. They already did it. You know there wasn't a whole lot of foresight there there. Sorry after the fact. It's a pattern. We've seen over and over in the last few years. A terrorist attack happens the social media platforms. Put out statements, but don't fundamentally change their policies. On Youtube you can still find old video manifestos from right wing domestic terrorists. FACEBOOK didn't ban white nationalist content until a year and a half after Charlottesville. The main step they did take at the time was to remove the accounts of a bunch of individual users and groups, but that means I don't get to just clemens. Okay, we're done here. Good job. They got to platform. Because my job is to worry about where going to go next, you would push them off of platforms like twitter. And just go from create their own new platform. And they called Gab, and it was just straight for white nationalist, and on Gab, for instance that the man who conducted the terrorism act against the tree of life, synagogue did most of his organizing, he networked with other white nationalists, and had a long string of racist and antisemitic posts before his infamous final message. Screw your optics I'm going in. On these alternative platforms vacant talk as though they didn't have to fear sensors or monitors people looking over their shoulders, so they were much more open and explicit about their hateful nece, and not just their hateful, but frankly their lust for violence, the rhetoric became incredibly violent on a lot of these smaller platforms, and this journey, trying to go mainstream only to retreat back to the violent fringe. It's the journey Josh mid to, and that's Kinda trajectory of going from white nationalist, one hundred zero. Two point own and things just from an RPG on ground and finding this thing all the base. The base is a neo-nazi. With an explicit focus on real world violence. The shared bomb making manuals and planned paramilitary trainings to prepare for a coming race war. When news broke that eleven, people had been murdered at the tree of life synagogue. They talked about it in terms of textbooks. Josh wrote in their private chat. Infrastructure is what needs targeting small hits like yesterday's while striking fear into many that only ultimately served to embolden the enemy while they're still strong. Yes the I. Don't even remember say. I guess that goes to show. Those playing a role in assess and. It's just stark latest role and you start getting into. That's the sound of someone who. was enthralled with the idea of being a hero. That's how the whole heroes dynamic works. Is that you are playing a role, you've created this image for yourself of being the hero, and now it's really important for you to live up to it, and this is how. People who've been radicalized can get talked into committing acts of violence is that they feel like they have to? Have to prove that they are the heros. They've made themselves out to be in their own minds. Josh left the basis chat room in November of two thousand eighteen. He says he was turned off by all the glorification of violence. A couple of weeks after that Atlanta anti-fascist published an article exposing his long history in the white supremacist movement, and within days he was tweeting that he was out of the Movement for Good Looking back now I don't see myself staying in movement, no matter. It's just it's tiring. I just don't And obviously everything about his wrong. Ideological racial social since everything for all. Other. Men who stayed in the base would go on to be arrested for vandalizing synagogue. Plotting to murder a couple they believed were ANTIFA activists. And trying to start a civil war, gun rights rally in Virginia. The FBI says the greatest terrorist threat in the United States today comes from what they call lone offenders terrorists who get their radical ideas from online communities who attack without ever coordinating with anyone else in the real world. According to our database. They're responsible for nearly half the terrorist fatalities since trump took office. It's a list that includes the tree of life shooter Robert Bowers the powei synagogue shooter, John Ernest, and the El Paso Walmart shooter Patrick Crushes. A lot of people will be exposed to these same ideas and not respond in a violent way, but it doesn't take very many of them to actually cause a whole lot of harm. For Law enforcement that tricky question here is. How can you tell from what someone says online? They're actually going to commit an act of violence. But for the rest of us, there's a different question. That's maybe even trickier. What do we do when people say things online, that might help push other people to commit acts of violence. Josh, said several times in our interview that over the course of his ten years in the White Supremacist Movement. He only spent a grand total of maybe five days doing things in the real world. His role was setting up websites organizing online and writing propaganda. Like an article, he wrote for alright dot com, where he told his fellow white people to quote rekindle your inner hate, and that an honorable death must be earned. You've talked about this saying you didn't do anything. You were just writing things, but just as you were radicalized through reading things online. So was Robert, bowers so as John Ernest so as Patrick cruces. Isn't writing something doing something, and do you think? What I mean by doing. Something is irl like actually getting to straightness roaming by doing zone. But he's starting to think that distinction doesn't really make a difference. I didn't actually go out getting any street brawl or physically attack anybody, but that's no different than writing something encouraging others to do. You know what I mean. I would have considered myself in a way domestic terrorist because I was out spouting off some of these same ideas. and. Feel so weird to to reference yourself in that. But. To be honest. Things Josh. Did may not meet the FBI or the Department of Justice's definition of terrorism. They didn't even get him kicked off. Social Media. But. He says he'll be making up for them for the rest of his life. That story was from reveals Stan Alcorn. We reached out to facebook for comment. They sent us a statement saying that they don't want to be a place for promoting hate or violence, and that they're making progress. They told us in the first three months of two thousand twenty. They banned more than two hundred fifty white supremacist organizations and removed four point seven million pieces of content tied to organize. We reached up to Youtube and the global Internet form to counter terrorism as well, but they didn't respond. If social media companies aren't stopping white supremacist terrorism. What about the US government? That's after the break on reveal? Hey! This is Al and before we get back to this week's show I. WanNa. Let you know about a story on another podcast this week from reveal reporter Stan alcorn about how white supremacist violence is remembered. In the wake of the killings of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor statues have been coming down across the country statues of confederate generals, but also in Mexico statues of Kista. Standard been reporting on the fight over public monuments in his home state for years and this week or ninety nine percent invisible. He tells the story of how one of these monuments came to be, and what it took to bring it down. You can hear that story starting. Tuesday June thirtieth by subscribing ninety nine percent invisible. Wherever you get your podcast until Roman, I said Hi. From the Center for investigative reporting and P R. X This is reveal I'm outlets in. A year after Josh. Bates left the white supremacist group. The base, another member of the organization shot a video of himself, speaking to a camera wearing a gas mask. He was calling on white people to acquire weapons derail trains and poison water supplies in order to ensure the survival of the white race. Later, a federal judge outside of Washington DC would read a transcript of their video into the record. Before prosecutors held a press conference, the evidence gathered by the FBI demonstrates these defendants who are self proclaimed members of the white supremacist group. The base were dedicated to the idea of doing harm to African Americans Jewish Americans and others who the defendant you'd is a threat to their twisted idea of white ethno state. Put simply this domestic terrorism investigation like he saved lives. But this law enforcement stopping white supremacist terrorism before it happens has been the exception. According to the database, we put together with type investigations since two thousand and eight law enforcement has stopped about one in three terror plots by white supremacists and other right wing extremists. Meanwhile, they've stopped terror plots by those claiming to act in the name Islam at more than twice that they've stopped three out of every four of those in other words, the FBI seems to do a better job going after terrorists whose ideas resemble the nine eleven attackers, then the right wing terrorists who've killed far more people in the two decades sense. But in the last year reporter David. My word says the FBI statements and arrests seem to show shift towards taking white supremacist terrorism more seriously. It's very clear that the FBI has caught on that. This is a problem. But it's also very clear that they have a lot of catching up to do. And getting the FBI describe how it's catching up isn't easy. His reveals Stan alcorn again. In theory there are people who can force the FBI to explain itself. Congress, but Congress has not always been focused on white supremacists, terrorism, either for instance. This hearing from twenty eleven. The Committee on Homeland Security will come to order led by Republican Congressman from New York Peter King. This committee cannot live in denial. which is what some of us would do when they suggest that this hearing diluted focus by investigating threats unrelated to Al Qaeda. Of Homeland Security and this committee. Were formed in response. The Al Qaeda attacks of September eleventh. There is no equivalency of threat between Al Qaeda and Neo Nazis. Environmental extremists or other isolated madmen. Only actually there are more than twice as many right wing, domestic terror incidents that year as anything inspired by groups like Al Qaeda, according to our data, and that was my privilege to recognize the distinguished ranking member of the Committee, the gentlemen from Mississippi Mister Thompson. The ranking member or top Democrat venue? Thank, you very much champion. Perspective, on a stand at our personal experiences, play a role in how we see the world. We've all come to this place from somewhere else. I'm from Mississippi. Might become the first black mayor of his hometown in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, three, a place where cross burnings were used to intimidate civil rights activists. Twenty years later when he was elected to Congress, he made national news for pushing to finally prosecute the mastermind of a k. kkk killing happened when he was in college. But we are not here in these places now. mishearing. Brought up harassed. That happened just the day before. A man had placed a bomb along the route of a Martin Luther. King Day March in Spokane Washington? News reports identified the suspect as a member of the same white supremacist group. That influenced Oklahoma. City bomber Timothy McVeigh. I urge you must've chairman to hold a hearing examining the homeland security threat posed by anti government and white supremacist groups. Are you back? Over the next eight years, Thompson and other Democrats would keep asking for that hearing on domestic terrorism. They'd never get it. I called up Congressman Thompson on Skype, but his office in Bolton Mississippi the same town that elected mayor nearly fifty years ago there about five hundred people who live in this town. So I bet you must know every single one of the more or less. Not only do I know them I. Know Their business. They know my business. There are no secrets. We talked about how it felt to struggle to get his colleagues to pay attention to this threat of right wing terrorism. Plus straighten would be honest with you. 'CAUSE I knew. This problem was growing in America. And Somehow. I committed was missing the opportunity to address. And that's unfortunate. But. In Two Thousand Nineteen Democrats took control of the House and Bennie Thompson took control of the Homeland Security Committee and Eynulla. Advocate chairman. We held the here. And it was only in this hearing. That members of Congress in the public get a chance to see in here for the first time. What was going on? This hearing and other Democrat lead oversight hearings got the FBI to finally acknowledge the serious threat of white supremacy terrorism. They said that could racially motivated. Violent extremism was now as big. A THREAT IS ISIS. But these hearings didn't turn up a lot of details on exactly what the FBI was doing to deal with that threat on the ground like the number of. Cases or, arrests. So I asked the FBI agent in charge of counterterrorism for the Newark. Field Office Joe Dennehy and I think there's really been a surge in what we assess as as racially motivated violent extremism, both here in New Jersey and across the nation I think a lot of the profiles of the subjects we're. We have seen conduct successful tax her younger males. All of them really radicalized online. Now that the velocity of those threats and successful tax appears to be increasing. We obviously dedicate greater number of resources to that threat when when you talk about that dedicating a greater number of resources. Can you share anything in the way of numbers something to kind of concretely get a sense of what that looks like. Unfortunately I can't give any specifics on that on in terms of our. Personnel or assets, but I can tell you that there's a tremendous emphasis. Put on this We recognize that the threat is evolving and moving with it no question about it. And just to be clear. Why is it that you can't give more details on that? You know. I'm not comfortable talking about. The number of agents that we have working a specific threat. So no numbers and then there's the term itself racially motivated violent extremism. Why call it that Are we primarily talking about white supremacy terrorism? Me No question that. White, racially motivated. Extremism is a very serious problem. Well what else fits into that What he isn't saying is the whole point of the term. Racially motivated violent extremism is that they are not just talking about white supremacists who've been responsible for more plots and attacks in the last few years than any other kind of terrorist in our database. What happened was in two thousand seventeen. An F.. B. I. Document was leaked to Foreign Policy magazine about something. They called black identity extremists. The FBI defined them as anyone using violence quote in response to perceived racism and injustice in American society in particular police brutality. Former FBI agent Mike German, said basically, it's black. People who scare them. When Congressman Thompson heard about it, not from the FBI, but from reading about it in the press. He wondered if it was really about countering terrorism at all. You know I went through co Intel pro in the sixties. FBI. Staying on people of column, and so they look. Are we trying to unfairly target. Black. People in Black Organization again. This was scandal and the FBI said it got rid of the black identity extremist category. But in twenty nineteen, more FBI documents were leaked to reporter. Ken Clip Stein and they showed that the f. b. i. had really just taken the black identity extremists and the white supremacists, and put them both in one combined category, racially motivated violent extremism. Can you say with confidence now that the FBI is not focusing on so called black identity extremists as as a terrorist threat and potentially going after. Activists? Walking. Ny Not your that the head of the oversight committee looking at them. Why can't you sort of say it with confidence that you know? because. You know a lot of what I've found that as a member of Congress. Is as a term. A need to know. Even though you might be in a classified setting. And suppose it may have top secret clearances. Are still certain information. That, if an agency decide. For whatever reason? You don't lead the no. And I'll file. They're not going to. The F. B. is lack of transparency is why we built our own domestic tera database. And it's also why the most important thing this congress did on domestic terrorism might be something that's barely been noticed. Tucked into the National Defense Authorization Act on page nine, hundred, fifty seven. There's language that requires the FBI to for the first time. Lay Out in detail, its domestic terrorism data describing every incident assessment and investigation since two thousand nine. And breaking them down by category and saying exactly how many agents are working each threat? That data was due to Congress right as we released this story. Why. Would you have to pass an act in prominence to get somebody to collect data that ought to be Pau of one's job. Needless to say. We had to take it to that level and you had to get it in the defense. Spending bill to right. Yeah, well, you know. What you call a little home cooking. AS CONGRESSMAN THOMPSON WAITS FOR THE RESULTS He's worried that attention is. Being diverted away from right wing terrorism this time by President, trump. In the midst of the recent protests over racism and police brutality president, trump tweeted he would designate antiga short for anti-fascist terrorist organization. Even though the FBI says Antifa is really more of an ideology. Than Group He's Pro United States, and he should lead this country based on what the facts are at the time he's presented with. Thompson says he hasn't seen any evidence of a connection between Antifa and violence at the recent protests. Whereas when we spoke a right wing extremists, who is obsessed with the coming civil war had just been charged with killing a federal security officer near a protest in Oakland and I'm glad that the law enforcement officials have identified and apprehended. That individual, but he said let the professionals do their job. That story was from reveals Stan Alcorn. Just to be clear, the president does not have the power to designate terrorist groups. Still since his tweet, there'd been multiple reports of the FBI interrogating protesters about their political views and what they know about Antifa. Before we go I WANNA. Remind you that we're just one week away from launching our first ever serial American Rehab Chapter One begins with a look inside a rehab with since people to work without pay and calls therapy. Then we'll trace the origins of this type of Rehab to a dangerous cult that started in the nineteen fifties, and came to a crashing end after performing mass sterilizations on its members and using a rattlesnake to attack one of its most vocal critics. We launch American Rehab on July fourth. You can hear it on your local public radio station or right here on the podcast. Just make sure you subscribe to the reveal podcast feet. This week show was produced by Stan alcorn and brisk, neely and edited by John Sheehan Talk You tell Anita's with help from s to Kaplan and Suo. Special thanks to our partners at type. Investigations, David, Nye word an chrome and Sarah. Blue Stain Victoria is our general counsel of production managers Jeeva mean our sound design team is the dynamic duo J. Breezy Mr. Jim Briggs Fernando men, Rueda. This week show was mixed score. By RAHM teen Arab Louis with help from aiming stuff. Our CEO is Krista. SCHARF Burke Matt Thompson is our editor and chief. Our executive producer is Kevin Sullivan. Our theme music is by Colorado Lightning support for reveals provided by the reason Dave Logan Foundation the John D and Catherine T. Macarthur, foundation, the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation, the Ford Foundation the Housing Simon's foundation, the Democracy Fund and the Ethics Excellence in Journalism Foundation reveal is a CO production of the Center for Investigative Reporting Npr, Ex Amal Edson and remember there is always more to the story.
Friday, Jan. 8, 2021
"Are two members of president. Trump's cabinet resigned democrats in congress. Say the secretaries are not who most need to go removed. This president i immediately invoking the fifth amendment. Is that really likely. I'm steve inskeep with noel. And this up. I from npr news Far right extremist groups operate in the open as much as the shadows. Many signs suggested this week's pro-trump rally would be a riot. Someone tells you what they're about. You believe it. Why didn't authorities seem to believe it and the pandemic is still dragging the job market down. Nineteen million americans are depending on unemployment benefits. Could vaccines improve dire situation. Can you get into the second half of the year looking for employment really strengthen stick with us. We've got the news. You need to start your day for this message comes from. Npr sponsored drift. Well sip into relaxation with drift well and enhanced stillwater beverage with magnesium a hint of blackberry lavender flavor and albany designed to help you relax and unwind drift. Well is a new way to cap off your day. Support also comes from. Npr sponsor capital one offering capital one. Shopping a downloadable browser extension that searches various sites for shoppers. What's in your wallet. More at capital one shopping dotcom. What is the appropriate response to a president who incited a violent mob to attack the capitol building a president who is taking no responsibility yesterday. He condemned the attack on the capital but in video never mentioned his own role to those engaged in the acts of violence and destruction. You do not represent our country and to those who broke the law. You will pay. Police have now arrested. Scores of people allegedly involved in the attack on the capital. But what about the president who addressed the crowd. Beforehand lied to them about his election. Defeat and told them to fight some lawmakers. Want to invoke the constitution's twenty-fifth amendment and remove the president from office congressional correspondent. Susan davis is covering this one. Good morning good morning now. So it's a remarkable a remarkable moment house speaker. Nancy pelosi is calling on vice president. Mike pence to forcibly remove the president. Let's listen to her. I joined the senate democratic leader and calling the vice president to remove this president by immediately invoking the twenty fifth amendment. She joins chuck schumer. Of course what are the discussions around this actually like well pelosi an incoming majority leader chuck schumer said that. They called vice president pence yesterday. And we're put on hold for twenty five minutes and that he never got on the line. Police said they don't plan to wait long for him to decide in that either if he doesn't respond or if the answer is no that she is preparing to consider another impeachment resolution on the floor of the house. Let's go back to the twenty fifth amendment before we get to impeach. How would it actually work complicated. And it's never been invoked before in this way. But there's provisions in the twenty fifth amendment that would allow for the vice president and a majority of the cabinet to send a letter to congress declaring the president unfit and that would allow the vice president to assume the duties of the presidency. The president can contest it and put it to congress to ultimately decide but that's a longer process to have to work out and supporters of the strategy. Say it would essentially tie the hands of the president in his remaining days in office. I want to be very clear that we have no indication that the vice president is considering this but we are seeing resignations. Not just from white house staff but at least two cabinet secretaries transportation secretary elaine chao in education secretary devos are both resigning over the president's role in wednesday's storm the capital. So the match would need to be lit by mike pence and the cabinet secretaries Who who don't seem likely do worth asking though have any republican lawmakers said they think this amendment should be considered a couple of them have illinois republican adam. Kissing put out a video saying that he believed the twenty fifth amendment should be invoked. Ohio republican steve stivers. A former member of republican leadership said he would not oppose it if the cabinet took that action. Even lindsey graham who obviously has been a longtime ally of the president for most of his term said. He didn't support it right now but that nothing should be taken off the table. If there are more events like what happened this week. There are more events in the next twelve days. Like what this week. okay lindsey graham. So let's say that pence in the cabinet tone agree you said. Democrats are thinking about impeachment. Which i think is a long process there. Well there's already. An impeachment resolution being circulated and democrats are signing on pelosi said. It's the overwhelming sentiment of her members to do this. They'd have to call the house back into session and would need basically total party unity to pass it in short order. I did speak to one of the democrats who supports it. They told me they know. It's not going to remove trump for office. They don't have time to do a senate trial but if they were to approve it it would make trump the first president to be impeached twice and that is a political punishment that many democrats would like to see delivered to trump congressional correspondent. Susan davis thank you. You're welcome federal prosecutors. Say they will aggressively pursue the people involved in this week's direction. A reporter asked the united states attorney in washington. Dc whether that included the president and the answer came back quote. We are looking at all actors capital police chief. Stephen son has submitted his resignation. After the attack still many people ask whether law enforcement is taking this seriously enough as a matter of timing yesterday video circulated of people who said they had been part of the mob outside the capitol they hung around gave interviews took selfies and talk proudly of what they had done. So why were they not rest. Npr's hannah lamb has been following this story. Good morning hannah. Good morning so among others in in this group cunanan conspiracy theorists white power groups militias the proud boys gang known for violence two days later. How are they reacting. What are they saying. Overall there's been a lot of celebration and bragging portray themselves as patriots but reactions did split somewhat after the president's condemnation video with some feeling that the president had betrayed them. I wanna play you a little bit of what megan squire to say on this. She's a professor at elon university in north carolina who monitor sparring networks. She says the reactions to the storming of the capital tend to fall into three categories. So i there are the sympathizers. A probably weren't there. They're all over social media and on regular media. These are the ones who were you know blooming antifa. They're making up stuff about that. This was a false flag and then there are the ones who were thrilled to be there. She says who felt like they're making a stand air taking bounty shots. Trophy picks making memes. Just talking it up. Yeah complete lack of remorse and finally. There's the group squire usually studies. These are the hard core white supremacist. She says they're thinking long term about how to capitalize on the incident for recruiting an expansion and again many of these factions have been talking about violent uprisings for years. I watched some of the video. That steve mentioned where people were outside like. Yeah i stormed in. I was teargassed. Many people question why those folks were out there making videos and not being arrested or the authorities taking this seriously if we think back from to two thousand seventeen the deadly unite the rally in charlottesville. That was this watershed moment for public awareness of the violent far right and you know. Us authorities consider this the deadliest to most active domestic terrorism threat. The fast forward nearly four years in some of the same white supremacist figures from charlottesville. We're at the capital wednesday part of another violent mob and this time the hard extremists are alongside suburban families. Conservative voters who've been radicalized. Disinformation and conspiracy a so far. Police have made more than ninety arrests. Federal authorities have charged at least fifty people with more expected as they crowdsource suspects from photos and videos so over the years. We have seen some changes in how federal authorities prioritize investigate these crimes but many extremism analysts. I talk to say they're still a long way to go. The trump administration has routinely played down the right wing threat and said the real danger was activists movements like antiphon black lives matter and speaking of which this summer racial justice protesters were teargassed arrested and tackled. That just is not what we saw with these folks this week. That's right. that's been a key criticism. Ashley howard teaches history and african american studies at the university of iowa. Talked to her yesterday. And she says this is not an aberration it fits into a pattern of responses to white mob violence the terror that we see here and the lack of response in equivalent response once again really highlights that crisis just brings out things. We already know about this country at amplifies. The trends and themes in the narratives of american history so while we are seeing arrests and condemnation critical questions remain really about whether the longtime minimizing of the threat from the extreme-right paved the way for their shocking security lapses. We saw this week. Npr's hannah thanks. Hannah thank you. Okay all of this and we still have a pandemic and it is still pulling the job market down for cove it. A lot of people worked as restaurant servers or retail clerks and now are having trouble finding work we get a snapshot of the job situation for december from the labor department this morning and forecasters are not predicting much good. Npr's scott horsely is with us now. Good morning scott. Good morning well. So what are the numbers pointing to. What are they likely to tell us the. Us jobs engine has been slowing down ever. Since last summer and all indications are that slowdown continued in december. In fact the engine may have gone into reverse we expect to see anemic job growth last month possibly even a loss of jobs connoisseur house wills fargo security says that's all because of the pandemic restriction that we've seen from both governments as well as just the voluntary restrictions were people have been paring back on activity. I think is really going away on business. Hiring for december wills foregoes predicting. Today's report will show a loss of about fifty thousand jobs in december. If so that would be the first monthly jobs loss since april back when the pandemic was just taking. Hold here okay. So that's significant. What about the all important rate forecasters say the jobless rate may inch up a bit. It was six point seven percent in november so could go a little higher still a lot lower than last spring when unemployment peaked at close to fifteen percent. Some of that decline since has been real improvement as people have gone back to work some. Though he's been less positive stemming from people dropping out of the workforce so far we have recovered less than sixty percent of the jobs that were lost. The springtime and the labor department said yesterday there still more than nineteen million people in the country receiving some kind of unemployment assistance nineteen million people. My goodness we do now have corona virus. Vaccines of course a lot of optimism. There because of that. How much of a difference will that make to the economy in the next couple of months it's gonna make a difference but not right away. Even the best case in our it was gonna take months to reach a critical mass of and so far. The rollout has been far from best-case still house does offer some optimism that at some point this year we could be looking at a pretty significant rebound for the job market. Pat should be rather temporary so the time you get to the second half of the year we're looking for employment to really strengthen as you see businesses return to some semblance of normal and you have consumers really eager to get out there and spend so's we've been saying Maybe by the spring certainly by the summer things should be better but we still have to get through a challenging winner. I late last month. Of course congress passed that pandemic relief package. How much is that helping. How much will that help. It will certainly help him. The most important thing it does is provide a lifeline for those nineteen million people collecting unemployment. It extends some of the emergency jobless programs and also boost weekly unemployment benefits by three hundred dollars. The bill also provides refundable loans to help small businesses. Stay afloat and it includes those one time payments of six hundred dollars per person that are going out to most adults and children the country already present elect. Joe biden has called that a down payment. He wants to see additional pandemic eight once he takes office and the chance of getting something done is certainly higher now. The democrats have clinched both runoff elections in georgia and have a razor thin majority in the senate wall street's banking that will mean more generous government spending in the months to come and that's one reason well that even with all the chaos we've seen in washington this week. The stock market closed yesterday at new record highs. Yes i did. That was remarkable. Npr chief economics correspondent scott. Horsely thanks for the scott. You're welcome and that's a first for friday january eighth. I'm noel king. And i'm steve inskeep up. I is produced by lilly heroes. Our editors are mohamed. Elbaradei's h j. My and katharine whalen. Our technical director is patrick. Void and our executive producers. Can you young. The news does not stop when the podcast ends. You can follow us on twitter. This program is at first. And of course up first airs on saturdays to lesean navarro and scott. Simon have got the news. It'll be here in this feed or wherever you get your podcasts. Have a good weekend. You deserve Kit is always here with tips about personal finance and health but also for those tough discussions like what to tell your kids when the news gets scary. Listen now to the life. Get podcast from npr.
The Road to Insurrection
"On this week's on the media how our year long investigation into militia walkie talkie chat rooms helped unveil in oth keeper conspiracy set for january six velo. The internet walkie talkie app. Is the number one free app. According to itunes tyranny. It's us or failure us or post. American world dishes now time to congenial and polite to time to go in there and kick the continuous engagements with one. Another through social media has really normalized notion of the vigilante. We are in the main dome right now we are rocking it at throng grenades but working in here. One of my biggest concerns is that we look at january. Six as the end of something. I think we should be more open to the possibility that it was a continuation or even a beginning of something. It's all coming up right after this listener supported w nyc studios from wnyc in new york. This is on the media. I'm brooke gladstone this week. Mark six months since january. Sixth the day of pro-trump mob stormed the us capitol over five hundred rioters since been arrested but the legal consequences of what they did. Only just beginning to roll in full. Local woman has been sentenced after pleading guilty to a charge in connection to the january. Six insurrection at the us capitol. And a morgan. Lloyd is from bloomfield. She was sentenced to three years probation. And one hundred. Twenty hours of community service the first guilty plea john ryan shaper of member of the oath keepers far right paramilitary group pleading guilty to obstruction and entering the building with a dangerous weapon. Certainly time and distance has brought some clarity and perspective but each step toward truce has been buffeted by republican members of congress. Some of the people who breach the capital today we're masquerading as trump supporters and in fact or members of the terrorist group antifa. The truth is being censored and covered up as a result of doj harassing peaceful patriots across the country. Let me be clear. There was no insurrection and to call it. An insurrection in my opinion is a bowl face line. You know if you didn't know the tv footage was video from january. The six would actually think that was a normal tourist. Visit that effort to create a bipartisan independent commission. Investigating the the attack that took place at the capitol on january. Six has failed on this. Vote the as our fifty four. The nays are thirty five. The motion is not agreed to absent of formal commission. The press has to look to emerging clues from the complex investigations into the militias and extremist groups like the oath keepers proud boys and three percenters who participated in the breach which is very likely why those efforts have become the target of tucker carlson's peculiarly spurious logic but strangely some of the key people who participated on january. Sixth have not been charged. Look at the documents. The government calls those people unindicted co-conspirators. What does that mean. Well it means that potentially every single case they were. Fbi operatives so fbi. Operatives were organizing the attack on the capital. Come on tucker. We all know what we saw that day though. The tv cameras certainly didn't capture everything the week after the insurrection. We brought you the story of an oath. Keeper named jessica watkins who secretly communicated with other militia members. Is she marched towards the east entrance of the capital. We have a good group. We got about thirty forty of us or sticking together sticking to the plan b. save god bless and godspeed and keep going get. Adjust do your. This is what we've lived up for everything we've trained for and eventually inside. We are in the mezzanine. We are in the main dome right now. We are rocking. I grenades people with paint balls. But we're in here. She was speaking over a walkie. Talkie app called zillow unaware that our reporter michael injure was listening in the sound. He captured is now being used by the justice department. And it's conspiracy case against the oath keepers the largest criminal trial of the lot. Mike had no clue who watkins was or what she was planning that day. But he had been tracking this type of militia communication for over a year. We asked him to revisit. An update his fellow to chart how the right wing paramilitaries used the app to lead a violent coup attempt and where the movement might be headed next when i recorded that oath keeper tape on january sixth. It wasn't by chance i begun. Monitoring militias on zillow way back in the fall of twenty nineteen not to understand how these groups stormed government buildings but to hear how they stormed storms and we begin with the relentless threat from hurricane and rapidly strengthening over the past. Twenty four hours to a monster. I was looking into this idea for an on the media story based on a pattern. I'd seen emerge during hurricane season in two thousand seventeen as irma and harvey ripped through the news cycle. Zillow exploded in popularity velo. The internet walkie talkie app. Is the number one free app. according to itunes. it's the primary source of communication for members of the louisiana cajun navy civilian volunteers including a facebook community of hunters and fishermen throwing their boats on the back of four wheel drive trucks and rescuing people from completely different towns. It's an extension of a movement founded during hurricane katrina known as the k. just like with pass storms copycat rescue groups sprung up all across the internet to monitor dorian as it careened towards the east coast guys. Don't get complacent. It's the calm before the storm. So tonight you can expect even tornadoes to touchdown and all kinds of crazy stuff. This is a guy who goes by the name. One percent watchdog. He's the leader of zillow. Group called the united states civilian force or u. s. usc f. They ran the biggest during storm relief. Channel that i could find at the time featuring several hundred people those who wanna volunteer go to zillow dot com forward slash training. They seem to have a pretty sophisticated operation going. But there was also something else notable about one percent watchdog and ucf his podcast and social media were filled with anti-government and info wars type conspiracy videos. This is part three on our coverage of the parkland. Florida school shooting mass shooting to those of you who are thinking. This is a false flag. it might be. He also had this rap song. Us facebook advocated for mass deportations of undocumented migrants and there was something about their combination of humanitarian aid xenophobia. That struck me as a contradiction. But when i brought that up. He and his group strongly disagreed. Are you guys so that youth thing. Someone's drowning in a hurricane and they need rescue that we're going to say show us your papers. Yes i were trumping. yes. I believe in the wall. Yes i believe in people coming here the right way. I have no problem with it but it's the fan and somebody needs help. I'm not gonna ask you for your paper. So i'm gonna help you. That's second voice is a guy named. Aj andrus his fellow profile featured a photo of him wearing a confederate hat. I initially reached out to him to learn more about one percent watchdog. Aj had collaborated with him for years but he didn't know his real name or where he lived anyway. Aj was much more interested in talking about his own local militia base in western new york. And how they used selo. He ended up inviting me to hang out with them at lobby day. A gun rally in richmond virginia on january twentieth twenty. Twenty sunday's rally comes in response to three new gun. Control bills governor ralph black face northam downplaying. Democrats plans to strip people of their second amendment. Right pretty disturbing. The governor used the fray storming of the capitol for what is possible on monday. Aj told me to meet him in a parking lot. A few miles from where thousands of right wing. Protesters had assembled outside the virginia capitol building. Holy moly it's cold out currently looking for aj's rv. This was my first time at this sort of event which is probably why. I didn't think twice about wearing my black winter coat with black skinny jeans. Just about begging someone to label me. As antifa city day we ended up spending the whole day in his blue and white. Rv what he calls his mobile command center. Because it's incredibly decked out for a hundred fifty watches solar on the roof goes down to six hundred ninety an hour battery into a six thousand raw pure sine wave converted to give me full power sitting here in the camper a satellite setup so that he can broadcast wi fi other militias. That wanna come in. Hang out twenty. Usb hookups of cb with a built in police scanner to it. I've got ham radio that becomes a mobile repeater enough food for six months. Full medical in here. Got security in here if i need to pull it out of the cupboard. He is preparing for the apocalypse or as he would put it for s. h. t. f. which stands for when hits the fan. I've got a team of folks from all over the country watching different cameras this that and the other and i'm in contact with them all the time. He met up with his militia. Here most of his guys. I only saw like five or six of them. But i heard there were more. We're headed down to the actual rally but aj hung back in the parking lot watching breitbart livestream. He was more than just the eyes and ears of the operation. He was the commander of the q r f. The quick reaction force say he saw violence breaking out or he caught wind of some other credible threat against his guys. I make a call got everybody from twenty miles one hundred miles ready to be here in a second. Aj identifies a member of the three percenters movement. A primary force in the paramilitary right i say movement because it's more of an idea or rallying cry than it is a centralized national organization. People like aj who are inspired by it can just start their own three percent cells that name. Three percent refers to a myth disputed historical statistic about the revolutionary war during percent of the first thirteen counties fought or died for blood for our constitution. Then the helped write that constitution. Put it into play for everybody to have their rights in their freedoms in this country. Britain wanted to take our rights away just like a lot of democrats and liberals and a lot of socialists. Wanted take the right now in trade everybody's rights for just their freedoms just like you're seeing i'm breitbart at people are watching. The live feeds on that. They're saying they're sick of their rights. Being trampled on at least four three percenters would go on to be charged with conspiracy for breaking into the capital on january six meanwhile ties between militia and islam-phobic and white supremacist activity had been documented over the past several years starting in charlottesville and august twenty seventeen so we saw the first participants in today's unite. The right rally arrive about forty men and women in camouflage gear some with militia. Markings virginia is an open carry state and then there were three militiamen connected to a local three percent group who were convicted of plotting to bomb a mosque in garden city. Kansas in two thousand sixteen authorities say. The three suspects are part of kansas militia. Group that calls itself the crusaders which is part of the reason why. Aj led that operation in richmond. Because he wanted to rehabilitate the image of the three percenters and the militia movement at large. There's nothing wrong with the name militia if you carry a three percent sticker oh you got to be a racist. You got to be a nationalist. You've gotta be no we're not. We're humid were american. There's nothing racist about us. We're trying to show everybody that we are adults or responsible. Adults were northbound's trying to say. Oh the gun shoot. people know. it's the trigger that pulls it by the person is not the gun the whole time that i sat there with him. He had his ear buds and listening to his militiamen chatting away on zillow turning our country. We got everybody's on channel on jello on phones on calms working with each other and it's one giant network. Every single person with boots on ground is in the network together. How about how. Many people are in your zillow group. Close to a thousand right now and they're involved with their own little groups and it networks out from they're kind of like a spider doubt pyramid. Aj had kicked me out of his private zillow group. A couple of weeks before richmond. So i was never able to really hear him in his guys talking. But i'd signed onto a bunch of public zillow channels including one run by one percent watchdog. And i had those recording throughout the day. Just so i could get a sense of the kind of chatter that was bouncing between militiamen and activists all around richmond. Everybody at the rally already or are they on their way on the ground here still in row at home more online. There's a lot of people they're listening back. Some of the stuff gave me chills. I mean this is twelve months before january sixth and yet the communication strategy and the rhetoric about the politicians in the state house were eerily similar. This is not a time to go in there and be congenial on and polite to time to go in there and kick if the state troopers getting your way so be it. Complete the mission at world before i met up with aj. I figured most of these militia guys were all bark and no bite but speaking with him convince me that he was dead. Serious if gaza's my time to go it's my time to go. I've been shot stabbed burned born with cancer diagnosed at four. Still got it through my body. And nothing's in my organs. Got my sight. When i was one got hearing when i was three and i shouldn't have been born so if i'm alive and there's still reason some still going to do something. There certain things got to step up for people in america steph vote for the rights and the freedoms to keep it alive for the next generation. Because without that we ain't got no one was hurt that day. No bullets were fired. But spending time with aj open my eyes to the reality of the american militia movement in his guys want it both ways. They were ready to go to war and they have a history of participating in violent racist anti-government acts but at the same time they wanna be seen as a normal part of american life. He riyadh ick american life coming up. How right wing. Vigilantism went mainstream. This is on the media decades before motown there was black swan records. America's first black owned record label was founded by a maverick who fought for equality. Lifted up black voices and then mysteriously disappeared. The vanishing of harry pace is a story of hidden identities and a phenomenal but forgotten man. Who transformed our world. Listen on the radio app. Feed on apple podcasts. This is on the media. I'm mike alone lounger. The day i spent with. Aj andrews back in january. Twenty twenty was my crash. Course militia organizing. I walked away with two major lessons. One that militias and other far-right activists often used public silo. Channels to communicate during local demonstrations. Meaning i could listen in on events all over the country where violence might occur without having to travel which the pandemic had made impossible anyway and to the right wing paramilitary groups with us just about any media event any crisis to organize and get attention and twenty twenty delivered delivered. Those in speeds couvert locked down protests in michigan as protesters moved into the capitol building democratic state. Senator dunya poll hanky posted this photo saying directly above me men with rifles yelling at us. Some of my colleagues on bulletproof vests are wearing the black lives. Matter protests sparked by the murder of. George lloyd america was fired and conspiracy theories mantica infiltrating white suburbs. Peaceful protests met by armed men and confederate flag. Police call it a false rumor that claimed in thika had three busloads of members ready to hit neighborhoods in mom l. Ben going into the freight in life so this is a militia guy psyching himself up for showdown with antifa. That never happened fashion ball. I'll be remembered as a patriot history. Show that against this terry. Last year i encountered so many of these violent fantasies while monitoring militias on zillow. Frankly too much for one person to keep up with so i decided to enlist some help. I've checked down around three hundred militias. I teamed up with this. Guy hampton stall. He's a senior researcher with accolade. Which is the armed conflict locations and events data project. he's also the founder of a blog called militia watch which he started as a response to sloppy coverage. Because i had been doing a few years of research into us-based right wing militia groups and saw that there was a real gap in knowledge as far as the media goes about covering militia groups the increased visibility of these armed groups combined with the anxiety and anger about the news truth prospective recruits to right wing forums and facebook groups were militia guys shared passwords for. There's ella channels with step by step instructions about how to join. And so you joined the group and then the officers will invite you for an interview thus you some questions about what area. You're in whatever sort of geological requirements. There are for joining said militia. What interested you in three percent movement where you heard about the three percent. I was actually approached and conversation during a anti bring tests of antiphon. Blm in brandon mississippi. All you have the backing of your family. Do they know that you're on an interview tonight. I'm the man of the house. So you know funny to go somewhere or something that's going to happen to be clear. Neither hampton nor i ever pretended to be a militia member or a new recruit. we merely lurked in the background. So what do you got. Kind of experience you got military law enforcement medical. Everyone bravo military. I know a lot about weapons munitions and a fair amount of gear. It's like a second job is us tyranny. It's us or failure. It's us or post american world. Don't give to fly but anybody that's less than one hundred percent all in all in over ain't got nothing. Hold me back. Terrific kills me. Kills me the ways in which those groups come together and do recruitment through platforms really has to do with them unapologetically believing that they can actually become a proxy for law enforcement. Joan donovan directs research at the shorenstein center on media politics and public policy at harvard university to continuous engagements with one. Another through social media has really normalized a notion of the vigilante vigilantes of course are not law enforcement. They're not accountable to the public or trained to de escalate violence. And that's why some observers shuddered at the thought of armed militias say standing guard at polling stations last november monitoring zella. We did hear references to violence surrounding the election. But it wasn't about how to start it. It was about how to react to it. We have stay vigilant. Stay we'll train and maintain our composure. So that we don't ever far that for shot that would kill us. Roger that serve. We fire the first shot. we're done. I mean the public views turning around about us. And that's the way we need to keep it. We don't need to do to tarnish that they're fantasizing again l. there's going to be all his riots industries. We gotta be ready guys. But they're not talking about themselves going out there and doing it. Meghan squire a professor of computer. Science at elon university had been tracking discussions of the election from far right groups online. The whole vigilanteism is couched in the language of protection and that started in earnest with the reopen protests. To protect your business from the police who are trying to shut you down and then it went to george flight. Oh i'm going to protect you from the looters. i'm gonna protect trump from election. Meddling that idea that. The vigilantism is justified from a protection standpoint. Yet which that's terrifying. Because now they have reason right and it's a reason that makes them look like a hero and then there's a growing body of evidence that some local police departments are enabling. It look what happened last summer. During the protests that erupted after police shot jacob bleak in kenosha wisconsin. Seventeen year old. Kyle rittenhouse who had travelled to kenosha from his home in illinois shot three protesters killing two in an alleged act of self-defence hours before that though he in the kenosha guard local militia were thanked by law enforcement. They even offered the vigilantes bottles of water. Rittenhouse provides a template for examining how violence might unfold in the future. Here was an armed vigilante. Who used social media to find. Other armed vigilantes with the approval of law enforcement. They patrolled the streets looking for conflict which culminated in a tragedy. We all witnessed. Both police and social media can play a crucial role in the likelihood of these scenarios recurring. Let's start with the cops. While listening to fellow for a piece that aired october twenty twenty hampton and i observed three times when militia members claimed they had coordinated with local law enforcement for example one group called the georgia three percent martyrs aka georgia three percent guardians expressed deep distrust of the police in their chat room but then claimed to have teamed up with them at a beal protests south of atlanta pain. Yvo j. three and myself rolled up at southlake mall in assisted the morrow police police department. We were in full battle rattle in pain even cited in on somebody and they didn't mess with the fact that the police are allegedly standing next to a militia member who is pointing a rifle and looking down. His sites at said. Protester is highly troubling. I was interested in this. So i reached out to a reporter named robyn. Kemp who wrote for a website that she started called the clayton crescent she was there at southlake mall and she sent me audio of the scene. She walked with the protesters about one hundred fifty of them on the all african american people were marching. There was no violence or vandalism or like that it was a very joyful family oriented feeling of people assembling for the march in the parking lot of the shopping mall on the weekend and this time that we speak up we stand up and we let the world know their likes lives another. I was this like the only black lives. Matter protests at the southlake mall over the summer. I think that that was the only one. She did not see very many police officers there and she did not see any militia guys there if this did happen then the police in the militia were out of sight off to the side. It's very common. For militias to either get on roofs or go around corners and just e staged nearby there was a black lives matter protests here in atlanta back in twenty sixteen that i attended and as i was leaving took a wrong turn and parking garage and ended up on the on the roof and two spaces over there was a jeep with four men with rifles in their hands looking out over the protests. There's a lot of work that happens. That isn't super visible. It's worth noting to that. Zillow is just one app. That militias used for organizing. I didn't have access to their communication on say telegram or facebook chat after we aired this piece in october. The leader of the georgia three percent martyrs told robyn kemp of the clayton crescent that four men from his militia data ten that protest but without his permission after that event. He said he kicked them out. The moral police department did not respond to our requests for comment a month. After the moreau protests i caught wind of another potential police-militia relationship in georgia. I got word from douglas. County sheriff's day that they're supposed to have a protest in douglas county of their monument and civil war monuments and they said within the next week they may reach out and ask for assistance and if possible. We'll give it. That's two guys from the three percent security for speaking on july second twenty twenty one week later there wasn't facto black lives matter protests at the civil war monument. But we couldn't verify that three percents actually showed up when we contacted them last year. The three percent security force denied they had contact with the police and the douglas county sheriff's department did not respond to our requests for comment the third example of alleged coordination between armed vigilantes and local police actually reveals a course of action for reducing violence in the future. It involves the michigan home guard militia. That made national news last. May when it defended. Karl minke a barber shop. Owner who defied state lockdown measures by reopening his business and bursts of the michigan militia. Say they will take action to keep monkey from going to jail. We're willing to stand in front of that door and blocked the entrance so the entry there today. A few weeks after that incident word began to spread that there was an upcoming black lives matter protests in the works a couple local politicians and at least a couple on militias including the michigan home. Guard were preparing to attend then. Livingston county sheriff. Michael murphy posted this video to his department's facebook group. So here's the deal. I've had personal conversation with rob from to a mike that moore and former share baba zahed asked both to stand down to not show up tomorrow. Let me tell you a little story back in the mid nineties. There was a k. k. k. rally held on the steps of the old courthouse. That was the biggest non event that this county has ever seen the community really banded together and had other activities to do a handful of people maybe twenty at the most showed up for the kkk to do their thing. They realized that they didn't get the reaction that they were looking for. They packed up and left. So it was a beautiful thing that said my plea is if you just stay away. There's no stage for anybody to make this thing go sideways. Let's fascinating. Isn't that fascinating. I hadn't seen that. I think it's a little problematic. Compare the k. k. k. Two black lives matter protesters. But i understand the point that he was trying to make. Which is that showing up in force in response to something could have. The effect of pouring gasoline on the fire in michigan has an extensive history with right wing militias referring to these militia as the to a community is laundering that history through something that is deemed a little bit more politically neutral a constitutional amendment. That's a good point. And as i listened to the michigan home guard on zillow kind of making sense of the message from the sheriff. There was some frustration. And anger. And i would also say confusion so livingston county sheriff. There requested michigan guard other vetted militia groups to come and help him with extra security and then later came out publicly and said he did not do that. He does not want any two people there. Stay away there was a rumor that spread in the michigan. Home card zillow group that even after he made that video he secretly said no michigan. Home guard should come you there. I just want you to stand back and extra. Nobody sees you more or less. I still want them to come. I basically just want them to keep a low profile. that's not shady at all. Pardon me but that's book and you know should have just kept his mouth shut the next day. The sheriff denied this rumor on facebook and again. There's a lot about what happened behind the scenes that we couldn't verify but by addressing the militias publicly asking these groups not to show up the sheriff seem to at least annoy them to the point that they decided not to go. Yeah are lt gave us in officials. Stand down on the livingston thing. Sheriff michael murphy denied that. He was in contact with the militia in michigan. Home guard did not respond to our requests for comment and we reach out to them last fall. We couldn't get a complete picture of what happened in any of these examples but the tapes demonstrate that local law enforcement wield a ton of influence over local militia activity. The police may either ignore condone. Invite it we're effectively. Tamp it down social media companies face a similar choice last summer. Facebook deleted thousands of militia pages. Twitter also booted a bunch of militia counts as did discord a smaller app. That had long incubated far right groups. We were very concerned about discord joan donovan during the rise of the alright because discord was a minor app in. It really wasn't able to understand enough about what was happening on. its platform. 'cause they would see. Oh you know it's just thirteen people and that ends up being like adamov right. It was a group of people that are coordinating violence in the name of white supremacy. Exactly in so fellow has to have a procedure in policy and enforcement mechanisms where they do not tolerate this kind of behavior. Unless it's the business model you'd think it'd be hard for zillow corporate to miss what was happening on their own app. If hampton and i alone could locate two hundred far right groups ranging from oath keepers two straight up nazis according to bellows own terms of service. The app can remove anything that quote represents promotion of celebration with violent extremist ideologies groups and tactics last fall. When we were doing this research we reached out to the company to ask how it was enforcing. Its terms of service in a written statement. Zillow told us that the company quote allows speech protected by the us constitution and law therefore zillow does not permit distribution of content designed to incite violence end quote for the full response. Good on the media dot org late in our reporting process. Last year we spoke with an employee at zillow who asked to remain anonymous. The employees sent us a company wide email from june twenty twenty that detailed some of this militia in white supremacist activity on the app. The employee said that in a subsequent company white email zillow. Ceo bill moore said essentially that because the platform was not legally responsible for any harm caused by those far right groups. It would not kick them off the site. Norwood selo implement new moderation practices to deter this type of organizing in the future from what i could tell the most concrete action to come out of that summertime meeting was to de index far right groups from search engines which means when you google zillow three percent or zillow nazi those channels don't show up but they still exist and you could still find them on zillow. They just became harder to find by people like us last october. When i filed this story there was something about the way. The militias were talking about the role as protectors who give their lives for the cause not to mention the amount of weapons. These guys seem to have it all seem like a toxic brew just waiting to boil over. Of course we didn't know exactly what would happen just a few months later but among the community of experts we were talking to. There was an inkling of what was to come. This is how. I ended the story in october. Quote from now until november third. At least we'll be concerned about the potential for violence around the election. No one knows the answer but too much blood has been shed already for any police department or online platform to pretend that there was nothing they could have done to help. Stop it coming. Up the trail of breadcrumbs leads straight to the capital. This is on the media. This is on the media. i'm mike alone jer. So far in this hour. I've explained how i i came across his elo packing. Twenty nineteen as i was watching these militia groups organiz around hurricane relief and lead out. How the app allowed me to document the potential relationships between far-right groups and the police all across the country. It felt like the writing was on the wall but we didn't know for what with the events of january six. You can see how those pieces began to coalesce. After zillow refused to take action against militia organizing on its platform last year. This is what the app sounded like in the lead up to the insurrection january six revolution of bus. That's what got a problem with. Have that if all of us stand up and take back. I got a problem with patriots. Not growing them. Nuts is senate once we go operational. This channel will just be for intel gathering and organizing on the backside on january fifth hampton. And i noticed that one percent watchdog. The guy introduced you to at the beginning of the show had created a channel called. Stop the steel j. Six with about one hundred people in it. The next day. I had it running in the background while i watched the violence unfold on tv. Okay guys. we're on open channel here now. We're boots on the ground here. We're moving onto capital now. I'll give you a boots on the ground. Update here in few. That of course is jessica watkins. The oath keeper now indicted for breaking into the capital one percent watchdog. Later told me over tax that he didn't know jessica that she was in the channel though the two can be heard in conversation. What percentage of the crowd has gone to the capital on one hundred percent and everybody's marching on the capital. All million of us. This next part is what federal investigators seem most focused on. We have good great. We got about thirty. Forty of us are sticking together sticking to the plan more on that in a moment but first let's follow her to the capitol in whereabout t- blocks away from it now and Police are doing nothing. They're not even trying to stop us at this point. The wild thing about listening to an active insurrection on low is the group dynamic. While she's working her way through the mob outside the building she is one percent watchdog and others in her ear. Sharing intel from home cheering her on in real time. Us military news is reporting that the national capital has been breached. That's right this is a can of whoop made in america. Yeah witnessing history dog and encouraging her to kidnap politicians. You are executing citizen's arrest arrest this assembly. We have probable cause and acts of treason election. Fraud jessica walk ins can be seen in livestream footage taken around this time. Showing a line of militia members very deliberately partying crowd as they approached the doors. Hampton describes the video footage shared by ford fisher of news to share. There is a column of oath keepers. Who very clearly part of a unit. They march to the east entrance of the capitol building. Just a few minutes before the doors reached ford's zooms in on one of the people involved and a patch that he has on his back. That says i don't believe in anything. I'm just here for the violence about three people back. We see jessica. Watkins dressed in full battle rattle. According to other footage discovered by internet's lutes. She helped lead the crowd in pushing the east entrance door open before fighting her way into the capital. Rotunda and we are in the mezzanine in the main dome right now we are rocking throwing grenades people with paint balls. But we're in here speech shave. God bless and godspeed and keep going. Get at jess do your. This is what we've lived up for everything trying for following a report on these communications. In january the department of justice began quoting these zella chats in indictments along with quite a bit of information about watkins. alleged plans and motivations. This is a woman who had served honorably and afghanistan in west from a place in ohio. Where there really wasn't much going on. Marcy wheeler and independent journalists who publishes on her site empty wheel dot net has been pouring over all of the reporting and court records related to the sixth. She was i think given an identity in the oath keepers. That probably replaced what she had in the military it was it was structure. It was considered honorable. They could go out and feel like they were protectors of america. As the inauguration grew near jessica watkins indicated that she was awaiting direction from president trump specifically. They say she sent a text on november ninth saying if trump asked me to come i will. According to her boyfriend. Watkins had started her own militia. The ohio state regulars as a storm relief group of your earlier but after trump lost the election she wrapped up her involvement with the oath keepers by recruiting militia men to come to dc to act as private security for roger stone. A video uncovered by abc. News shows that at least three oath keepers. Did end up spending time with him in dc. Though i haven't seen anything to prove that. He and jessica watkins interacted down. Doesn't need these people to defend them. I think that that was the lower to get her to get people that function of saying. Okay you're going to be security for these. The who are one degree from the president of the united states. That's like glamour. Ultimately watkins was able to rope in enough people from ohio that she was rewarded with an invite to the oath keepers leadership chat room on signal and encrypted messaging app in december which put her in touch with oath keepers. Who had travelled from florida and alabama along with the founder of the oath keepers stewart. Rhodes who was in dc on january sixth but hasn't been indicted yet so these are these signal chats which will form the backbone of the actual conspiracy case in fact. The government has those chat logs because they were still on her phone when she was arrested on january eighteenth. They got elections before she deleted anything and she didn't want to perjure herself. She knew enough not to do that. But other people did delete stuff people in that chat room. Make up a large chunk of the sixteen person conspiracy case but remember. Watkins said we have a good great. We got about thirty forty of us or sticking together sticking to the plan. What do we know about the thirty to forty right. I'm waiting for those other fifteen people. There's a group from north carolina. We haven't seen arrested yet. Some of them stayed in virginia staying at the comfort in boston. Guarding the weapons that everyone had stashed their the government claims the oath keepers stored cachet of weapons for a cure f- or quick reaction force. That would respond to the capital armed. President trump were to quote declared insurrection. And to call us up as the militia. This brings us to the plan. Or as marcy wheeler says one of the possible plans they were basically talking about preventing the democratic transfer of power either by doing something so outrageous in congress that the expected biden supporters would rise up as well or they're just presumptive notion that enough quote unquote antifa would show up in the streets and they could perform being victims again and so enough violence to give trump the excuse to call in the national guard and then by calling in the national guard. Then you say you can transfer power. We're in the middle of insurrection. You can't transfer power we're at war. You can't transfer power. Dc has been locked down under the national guard to protect them from those evil antigua's a week after january. sixth hampton and i sent an email to zillow detailing. This evidence that it's app had been used by insurrectionists along an updated list of over eight hundred far-right channels. Then we reported those findings in the guardian and then a couple hours later. I'm selo released a statement on their site saying that. They were appalled by the organizing that was happening on their app. And they are banning two thousand channels maybe a third or so came from the list of eight hundred plus channels. We sent them. Oh yeah for sure of the eight hundred. Plus the majority of them are now offline either deleted by the users or removed by selo itself many of the groups that we were tracking on zillow relied on that app and its network and now that network in most cases is gone. Is it fair to say that a lot of these groups are sort of in shambles after january. Sixth i think a lot of them are struggling to find their footing for sure. It's some of the channels. I heard people say pretty explicitly. That's elo would never ban them that it was the one thing that they could always depend on militias are just like what piece of the broader puzzle and i think militias themselves are maybe a little bit quiet right now. Because if they're smart they're probably on the lookout for what the fbi is up to groups don't really disappear and the ideas that they espouse. Certainly don't disappear. They just might change focus. They might change platform. They might change the volume. There may be quieter at the moment. Megan squire professor of computer. Science at university as people start feeling more emboldened as they feel stronger. They'll re coalesce into groups again. I like to think of a jar of marbles you it on the floor and shatters everywhere in the marble rolling all around right while eventually they find the little dips in the circles in the floor and they kind of collect backup. I'm personally convinced that part of what motivated militias to break into the capital the belief that they need to protect a mythical vision of america at all costs is here to stay. But it's also possible that the role of national far-right groups will diminish even as violence continues january sixth and its aftermath has crystallized an idea that had been percolating among researchers that the far right in america has entered. What's called a post organizational or post group paradigm. both terms really capture. What we're seeing. In the modern far-right cynthia miller idris is the director of the polarization and extremism research innovationlab at american university groups. Do still matter. I don't mean to say that they don't. There are a lot of groups that exist but the vast majority of people who radicalized into these kinds of movements are encountering the propaganda and the information online but may never actually formally joined a group while the oath keepers and proud boys contributed significantly to the violence and planning on january. Sixth about eighty five percent of those arrested after the insurrection had no prior involvement in a formal far-right organization. One of my biggest concerns. Is that as a country that we look at january six as the end of something as the culmination of something. We even hear that language. A lot january six was really the culmination of months long coordinated effort by donald. What happened on january. Sixth was in many ways the culmination of all of these forces it was the last day of the trump era and it ended in chaos and frankly disgrace. I think we should be more open to the possibility that it was a continuation or even a beginning of something in terms of mobilization when you look at the long arcs of history around the world and how democracies have stumbled. These aren't usually things that happened. Super rapidly they are an accumulation over time of many small injuries and large injuries. That chip away at people's trust in the system at their their trust in the legitimacy of information and increase their sense of betrayal and anger and their willingness to believe that violence is a legitimate solution. Miller idris warns that this is not the end of the citizen militia. More like a lull before the next storm hits but in the wake of january. Sixth zillow has gone quiet. The far right groups have been banned in. The app is no longer the meeting place for all things insurrection. Rumor has it. Some members are going back to basics and have started using ham radio to organize hampton. And i are looking into that as for one percent watchdog january six capital protest. What zillow you. Send me this clip from podcast episode. He was working on which he said would feature an investigation of me. Take down of so by leftist media at wnyc of your public radio. I watched his podcast feed waiting for the episode to trump. But never did. I reached out to him for comment for the story and again no response then. A militia member leaked me some texts that he'd sent late one night in mid april quote no more. Ucf no more podcast. no more zillow. No more hurricanes. I need my life back. Six years was long enough to prove to me that. There's nothing for us to do other than to wait for the tyrants to make a mistake and to piss off a big enough crowd to take them out got one percent. Watchdog may have signed off for now. But we're here for the long haul from the media. I'm mike lowlander. That's the show on the media is produced by laya fetter. Michael owen louise blonde deal rebecca clock calendar and molly schwartz with help from vander ellen rights our newsletter our technical directors jennifer munson catty. Rogers is our executive producer on the media is a production of wnyc studios. I'm brooklyn stone.
Deplatforming: Not A First Amendment Issue, But Still A Tough Call For Big Tech
"First things i wanna social media company removes post by specific user or even in the case of the former president. Donald trump removes a user altogether. It is not a first amendment issue. One big reason is because the first amendment to find your rights against the government. it doesn't define rights against a company. Daphne keller who spoke to npr. This past week is the platform regulation director at the stanford cyber policy center there have been more than thirty lawsuits in the us by users saying they have a right to speak on platforms and demanding that platforms reinstate them and the platforms always win those cases. Basically the government can't silence your ability to say almost anything you want on a public street corner but a private company can silence your ability to say whatever you want on a platform they created because the platforms themselves have their own first amendment rights to set editorial policy and decide what to take down so yeah. The legal debate is pretty cut and dry but the cultural debate about whether tech companies are engaging in something that could be called censorship. That's another story you know. I think everyone pays attention. Is worried about the idea that a very small number of private companies exercise gatekeeper power over the most important forums for public discussion. These days. consider this big tech. Companies increasingly are under pressure to make big decisions about how to mitigate the spread of violent extremism on their platforms and experts say removing back content and the users who spread. It can come at a cost but it also seems to work from npr. I'm audie cornish. It's tuesday january twenty six this message comes from. Npr sponsor. better help better help offers. Licensed professional counselors who specialize in issues such as 'isolation depression stress anxiety. Anamour connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environment. When you need professional help get help at your own time and your own pace schedule. Secure video or phone sessions. Plus chat and text with your therapist visit better help dot com slash. Consider to learn more and get ten percent off your first month. We are still in the middle of this pandemic and right now. Having science news you can trust from variance to vaccines is essential. Npr shortwave has your back about ten minutes every weekday. Listen and subscribe to shortwave the daily science podcast from npr. It's consider this from npr in the week after. Donald trump incited a deadly riot in washington. Dc twitter banned more than seventy thousand users included the former president himself trump and some of his supporters also lost accounts on youtube snapchat twitch stop by shop fai and facebook. I think the this decision will certainly get a lot of attention. Columbia law school professor. Jamal green is also co chair of an oversight board created by facebook. They're charged with evaluating the company's decision to ban trump facebook. Of course we should. Mention is one of npr's financial supporters. They do not control any content decisions. Now that oversight board it wasn't there call to ban trump in the first place that was all facebook but the twenty member board will soon make a recommendation as to whether that band should stay in place the company can take it or leave. It same goes for other advice. The board dispenses so facebook as part of this case has asked for policy advice as to how they're content standards should relate to political leaders. And this is something that has been a challenge for the company and for other platforms in the past given that political leaders very differently situated than ordinary citizens and so That's going to be one of the things that we look into and yeah social media companies have always been cautious about how they police content from people with political power. But it's not just social media companies doing the policing anymore. There's guts of the web that no one ever wants to see or deal with or think about greg falco. A security researcher at stanford is talking about web hosting companies. They control levers to vast online infrastructure. And they have complete discretion to pull those levers as they see fit and that means they can decide which websites live or die. The question becomes tricky. When you actually take someone down. It's a really great territory. The reality is comes down to understanding when it reaches some public attention when there's actually physical implications the most prominent example following the events of january. Sixth the decision by amazon web services one of the biggest players in the web hosting world to stop hosting the social media site parlor amazon flagged hundreds of posts from pro-trump extremists calling for violence before and after the storming of the us capital. But that won't stop posting that kind of content. Daphne keller at stanford who you heard from says there's a parlor users could just go elsewhere. That is a risk in particular as we drive hateful speakers off of mainstream platforms where other people can respond to them and disagree with them into smaller and more marginalized echo chambers. Where they're going to hear only views that agree with their views. That are more radicalizing. That is one of the costs parlor. Itself is having a luck finding new home. The company approached six web hosting services after it was dropped by amazon and all said no. Thanks back to those bands put in place by social media sites in the following. The president's widespread d platforming on january eighth a company called signal labs found that misinformation across a few big social sites including facebook and twitter. Dropped seventy three percent. I think we just need to add some context to that university of washington. Professor kate star bird she researches misinformation on the what signals ups did was they took a measure of misinformation that was essentially just looking at keywords related to claims of election fraud and they looked at one week compared to the week before and A couple of things happened. That were different from one week to the next and that the suspension donald trump's account probably made a difference but it's hard to attribute all of that difference to just that one suspension because seventy thousand other accounts were taken out of the system. Now that doesn't mean she thinks d platforming isn't effective in slowing the flow of misinformation. At least in the short-term we spoke about whether it can work in the long term as well. I have a sense that that will have short term impact for sure what happens in the long term. I think is something we don't yet know. The answer to my expectation will be that if those suspensions stay in place if that vacuum isn't filled by other spreading misinformation and if the platforms can do a better job of not letting those networks build themselves back in that there will be a long-term benefit to the platforms. That did the d platforming. I'm asking because we're also seeing those who promoted The the violent uprising And new promoted q. On conspiracies flocked to other sites gab telegram me we is the solution to deeply form these people kind of everywhere they go or is it whack-a-mole there's a too big to get under control. I'm using this technique. I think we're going to find that there are other platforms that don't mind those kinds of conversations and in fact are designed for those conversations and if you consider sort of our values of freedom of speech and how those things work as long as they're within the law and those platforms want support that kind of speech that'll be a choice they make and perhaps we will see people that are that are d- platforms elsewhere find these other platforms as a place where they can move to but what that also does that means that the conversations that are happening on these larger more popular platforms where in the last few years. We've seen recruiting into these conversations. That recruiting won't be able to happen because those conversations won't be happening there. If this is a turning point what are you going to be listening for. That will give you the sense that it's a meaningful turning point. This is actually a really hard question because the research that we've been doing historically has been focused on publicly available data and what's what would happen if this is a turning point is our research methods aren't gonna be useful anymore because the content is going to go into other places and so f- for me it's actually to see you know in our research community the folks that are studying these sort of long tail platforms that are you know edgier the altech platforms. Are they the ones that are busiest right now. And and when that happens we can see that a turning point happened and what that means for society. I don't think we know yet. We're still gonna have struggle with some of these technology based toxicity is but they're gonna shift where they're at home. That's kate star bird at the university of washington as we mentioned new alternatives to facebook and twitter companies like gab telegram and me we are gaining new users by the millions but those companies have less experience moderating content than their larger more established competitors. Npr tech correspondent shannon. Bond has been looking into how one of those platforms is responding to the new attention and the new challenges. It's a social network called me. We bats me and we get it and in the past few weeks. Millions of people have signed up in twenty twenty. We went from six million to twelve million. And now we're already. It's the middle of january and we're already over fifteen half will mark weinstein launched me. We back in two thousand sixteen as an alternative to facebook focused on privacy. That means me. We doesn't harness users data to sell ads or decide what content to show them but privacy is not the only reason people are flocking to meet me right now along with other smaller social networks like gab and messaging apps like telegram it's become popular with trump supporters who are disillusioned with facebook and twitter. Cindy otis tracks online disinformation at the aletha group people are splintering off into us more fringe platforms that essentially have no content moderation or threat monitoring capability whatsoever when facebook banned groups for spreading false claims about election fraud and organizing. Stop the steel rallies. Some sent their members to me. We gab and parlor another alternative. Social app parlor recently went down after amazon refuse to host it because there was too much violent content. Weinstein says me. We is not parlor or gap for one thing. He says he's serious about putting limits on what people can say. I'm a firm believer moderation idol like sites or anything goes i've been quoted saying i think they're disgusting good people right and left and middle. Can't handle anything goes. We don't want to be around hate speech. We don't want to be around violence insiders. Mimi does have rules. But they're more lax than facebook and twitter the big platforms have banned the cunanan conspiracy for example. A step me. We has not taken in. Fact weinstein accuses facebook and twitter of political censorship which the companies deny. And i should note. Facebook is among npr's financial supporters me. We says it removes content accounts that violate its policies but journalists and researchers have found things like right wing militias and discussions of shooting people in a stop the steel group on me. We yes. you're right now. The influx of people like social media is messy. Some bad actors getting all over the place look at facebook and twitter. I think we're much more. Nimble than they are weinstein is hiring more moderators for his trust and safety team currently under one hundred people but experts say all social networks. Have to get much more serious about addressing harm by setting clear rules and making sure they can enforce them. Megan squire of elon. University studies online extremists. I think we all still treat social media companies like they're this inexpensive startup but they need to be treated more like starting in an airplane. Company urged company that makes cars. I mean you gotta think about seatbelt. She says the risk of not having strong online protections is clear. Just look at the insurrection. At the capitol. It's npr's shannon bond and additional reporting in. This episode came from npr. Business reporter bobby allen. You're listening to consider this from npr. I'm audie cornish. Consider this is a partnership between npr and wmu to help you understand the news that is happening around the world and here in the washington region. Police keep listening and downloading. We'll be here every wednesday afternoon with news about the washington region as well as your national news.
"I don't think from a ratings perspective or a chain dollar perspective. It makes all the a chance. It's a political decision. Instead of a second debate, we got to networks airing dueling town. From WNYC in New York kisses on the media I'm Brooke Gladstone Die Bob Garfield pollsters took a lot of heat in two thousand sixteen when their models predicted at trump loss and it's making them a bit defensive this time around. So long run, you know Biden win seven out of eight times. You know I know we'll probably get more crack with the one eight times comes up but I can't do anything about that. I think it's the right forecast also a walkie talkie like APP that works as a recruitment tool for right wing militia is tyranny. It's US for failure US or post. American. World. Are you all the an over? Hang got nothing hold me back if it kills me kill me. It's all coming up after this. To be really informed, you need to know what's behind the national news stories and what's going on in your neighborhood. Consider this new podcast from NPR and WNYC helps you make sense of the day subscribed to consider this wherever you get your podcast ch-. Listener supported W. nyc. Studios. From. WNYC in New York, this is on the media I'm Bob Garfield and I'm Brooke Gladstone Thursday night dueling town halls. One likened Baya trump's senior adviser no less to Mister Rogers neighborhood surveys president if you lose, what will that say to you about where America is today? Well could say them lousy candidate and I didn't do a good job the other townhall. Like shootout at the OK corral. Now, why would you send a lie methodology? We that was a tweet that was a an opinion of somebody and that was re. I'll put it out there people can decide for. Like someone's crazy uncle Joe Biden event was on ABC the President's on NBC airing simultaneously after the president rejected the idea of a virtual matchup. No, I'M NOT GONNA waste my time virtual debate. That's not what debating all back. You sit behind a computer and do a debates ridiculous and then they cut you off whenever they want and that interview on Fox business he talked about how he'd easily won the previous debate but was energetically lowering expectations for the Greenville North, Carolina, town, Hall, for NBC. So you're not big setup tonight. Right I'm doing this town hall with. Con Casio N.. Right on. NBC The worst. So he's participating out of charity. courageousness such as the world has never known. Or so they asked me if I did I figured what the Hell we get a free hour television put enough of Buck Rogers and Mister. Rogers let's talk about NBC going along with the President's demand to counter program his town hall with Biden's. Unnecessary. Venal even though NBC's Savannah Guthrie's tough grilling may have blunted some of the criticism after the fact was this all because the president is and will always be a ratings magnet because ABC is saying Biden won that fight this week according to Jay Rosen who teaches journalism at nyu and is the founder of the blog press? Think it wasn't about the ratings? Would it be smart for the NBA to run game six of the NBA Finals against Monday night football for radiance it doesn't make any sense. They wanted to show Donald Trump. They could play ball. So why did they want to show? Donald trump that they would play ball. We've seen a lot of small signs that NBC's concerned about its reputation leaning to left coming from the opinion hosts in MSNBC's primetime lineup. That's partly what the hiring of ships Smith is about. The emphasis that his show will be straight down the middle executives at NBC want to assure Donald Trump that they are still even handed what is even handed mean in this formulation. While I'm not saying they have a compelling or intellectually coherent view of that. This is a case where decision making by executives has caused a great deal of anger and resentment NBC staff meeting last night on Msnbc Chris, Hayes, and Rachel Manno being there is about NBC's decision Meadow Ass Common Harris, are you as bad as everybody else's that NBC is doing town hall with President Trump tomorrow. Instead of the debate at the same time, that Vice President Biden is going to be on ABC every year we talk about what's wrong with election coverage too much horse race too little about the issues clinging to the narratives about the candidates supplied generally by their opponents pauvres the conventions of political journalism changed at all since two thousand sixteen. Yeah, at the margins, there are some changes. There's little more caution about predicting the race a little bit more focus on social media spending and foreign interference but the fundamentals of the coverage hasn't changed at all. You know we're trying to game out of the race will wind up. There's an emphasis on strategy and the role of journalists is sort of to. Chronicle who's ahead and why their head that hasn't changed at all even though journalists are constantly reporting that this presidential election is unlike every other because of the pandemic and the incredible damage to the country happening at the same time, and therefore the campaign story of the pandemic story can't really be separated in in that sense it's not like any other election cycle. This week you were part of a group of political scientists and scholars who released a manifesto. It was called election coverage and democracy network, and one of its main points is to make the voter the protagonist of election stories voter struggling to get their concerns addressed by the candidates and also struggling with the simple act of voting should be the central character in the narrative for. Election coverage and I have advocated for a long time. A completely different model of election coverage called the citizens agenda model in which rather than starting with the candidates and their struggle to win you start by asking the people you are trying to inform what do you want the candidates to be talking about as they compete for votes? What do you want this campaign to be about? and. If journalists could begin their election coverage with a very solid inquiry into that question, they could develop a list of priorities coming from the voters that didn't include questions like your opponents says you broil puppies would you say to that and those kinds of questions sometimes go gotcha questions are part of a larger style of journalism. I call it the savvy style in which journalists perform for us as insiders who know how the political game is played. They're trying to anticipate what sorts. Of controversies could affect the outcome. My basic rule for understanding press performance during the age of Donald Trump is that routines journalists are built on assumptions about how candidates will behave and trump violates all those assumptions and so the routines break in the practice is break and they don't want to reinvent their routines. So they sort of keep on with the tools they have, and they don't apply Donald Trump and one of the best examples of that is the whole notion of a gaffe. Candidate let something really damaging slipped from his or her tongue, and it becomes a controversy and distracts from what the candidates trying to accomplish. The entire presidency of Donald Trump is a gaffe it twenty times a day gaffe and so to even use that term with Biden, which the campaign press did earlier in the year talking about his ads is kind of crazy. There's something lunatic about it, but it's an example of clinging to your practices after the premises underneath them have fallen through. You called on news organizations to switch to an emergency setting and that meant among other things not to cover live any speech rally or press conference involving the president because the risk of passing along bad information was too great by pushing the emergency button, you allow different rules to come into play four an exceptional situation. and. When the president of the United States is the most potent force for misinforming the American public about a public health emergency, you have a civic emergency, and so I tried to came out what would the rules look like for trump coverage one of them is don't take any of his virus briefings live instead watched them on television. If he makes news report it if he doesn't don't fact check everything he says before you pass it along it's not a question of censoring the president or making it impossible for people to listen to them if they want to. We know that state TV Fox News is going to carry it. It's always on C. Span Whitehouse Dot Gov Youtube you can find it right. Yes. If it's a politically significant lie that has some sort of cultural valence or breaks new ground in presidential linemen, maybe you decide to do that. But you're saying if it doesn't then a responsible network might decline to cover it. Absolutely. It's called news judgment. It's one of the basic principles of journalism right but there is this reflex and this tradition that says anything the president says is news yet absolutely what the President says is news is an example of a practice based on a premise that presidents don't waste the podium. They don't just talk without thinking about what they're saying. They don't lie constantly from the perch of the presidency trump doesn't obey any of those principles and so if you continue to say what the President says, his news, you open yourself up to a new kind of propaganda method which Steve Bannon described as. Flooding the zone with an in the Russian context is called the fire hose of falsehood you flood every platform in every delivery device with your voice. You don't care if it's true or not. You multiply the number of arguments that you make and you don't care if there's contradiction between them because the purpose of the fire hose of falsehood is not to convince anyone it's to confuse and dismay people and drive them. From the public arena. So if you continue on with what the President Says News, you are pursuing a broken practice and a busted premise. So we should be asking ourselves. You say, is this thing that he said something we should be amplifying Griffin's this week in Iowa he was basically with his hands swatting away the story of Iowa floods saying the media was covering Iowa floods and not covering my Nobel Peace Prize nomination. Networks and most of the news didn't cover. Could you imagine I, mean it reveals something about his character something that most people would already know what should we do that President Trump has hacked the newsworthiness formula. Their Criteria that makes something nunes in most mainstream rooms. If it was never done before it was never said before if it's conflict if an evolves the celebrity, if it's very consequential for lots of people, if it contradicts our expectations and in the traditional newsworthiness formula, Donald. Trump makes news every time he opens his mouth. And so if you continue to follow that formula, you are going to sooner or later started collaborating with him in his fire hose of falsehood style. and. That's why you can't keep them getting sucked into trump's agenda without an agenda of your own. You have to have something you're trying to defend. Now what is that thing because journalists are taught not to have agendas one is standing up for a public debate in which the candidates start with a common world, of fact, and tell us what they're going to do about those facts if trump is behaving within that frame, then what he's saying is worth amplifying. If he's trying to bust out of that, then we have to ask ourselves different questions another. You could have is standing up for free and fair elections that could become like a 'cause. The newsroom is pursuing through its journalism. A third would be the right for people to participate that voting is a good thing and we're gonNA do everything. We can as a newsroom to make that easier to protect the integrity of the vote, etc. They have to decide what their four in the age of hurricane trump or they will get blown away. One thing that seems easy though is D platforming. You can curb misinformation by kicking certain outlets off of social media networks. For instance, supporters of the Cunanan conspiracy theory are finding it harder to congregate on twitter and facebook. Now, this week facebook and twitter restricted the reach of the entirely unsupported new. York Post screed against Hunter Biden is there any way that could be applied to the president? You can't make decisions like that. Should we stick a label on this thing? The president said should be simply take it down. And less you know what you're trying to protect. which brings us to. Appoint you've made for decades that you have to declare your values. There's a great risk in that because the consensus on what is good and what is right is a moving target. I mean once slavery was debatable but you can tap news without a value system. And most journalists not that. They go into journalism as their careers unfold they learn the value of Sunday night called the view from nowhere. The illusion that by advertising, your view listlessness, you are somehow becoming more trustable. In the age of Donald Trump it's pretty easy to see how the view from nowhere opens you up to manipulation, and so eventually, if you want to improve your coverage, you have to ask yourself, what are you four? What are you trying to defend and especially now in twenty twenty when American democracy itself is under attack. Asking that question is vital. To doing journalism at all and I want to say one more thing here. Whether trump wins or loses. The American press in for confrontation with the view from nowhere for this reason. The Republican Party has become a minority party and justice. It can only win if it makes voting harder, it can only prosper if it makes understanding the party. Because if it stands for what it believes in in will never win elections. And so the conflict with journalism. Is Structural. The American press in for a confrontation with the Republican Party that Can only win elections. By obscuring the truth about itself. And it can delay this confrontation, it can deny it. It can claim not to see it. But eventually, there's going to be a crash. Chain. Thank you very much. All right. Jay Rose and teaches journalism at New York University is bracing and clarifying observations can be found at press, think dot or. Up Next, the maddening metaphysics of Meta data from Poland's most prominent proponent meaning nate silver's still split them. This is on the media. Support for on the media comes from Lord Jones between marathons zoom calls stressful new cycles. We could all use some self care. If you're curious about what CBD can do for you, you'll want to start with the best and that's Lord Jones for years Lord Jones has been changing people's lives with their premium humped arrived CBD products offering from world class skin. Care to Tinctures Gel capsules to decadent governor up convictions. See for yourself. Go to Lord Jones Dot Com Slash Otm to get twenty five percent off your first order that's Lord Jones Dot com slash tm for twenty five percent off your first order. This is on the media. I'm Brooke Gladstone and I'm Bob Garfield Nate. Silver founder and editor in chief of five thirty, eight DOT COM never claimed to be an oracle. But after his twenty twelve forecast of an Obama victory, he was instantly anointed. Here's John Stewart. God of the Algorithm. Four years later, the aura cling racket got little harder. The fivethirtyeight motto based on Amalgam of polls across the country predicted a seventy percent chance of Hillary Clinton winning. which was probability like a seventy percent chance for a cloudless day. But what hit was in the thirty percent a violent thunderstorm and silver has spent four years explaining that the forecast itself wasn't wrong. That's because the public especially, the Democratic Public had interpreted the seventy thirty ratio as a near certainty. In their disappointment they blamed the pose as a lot of distrust when it comes to pulling out there after all Donald Trump did win the election. Well, here we go. Again, silver has adjusted his methodology based mainly on unique circumstances, but the model remains the model nate welcome back to. Hey, how are you? Splendid. Thank you. So in two thousand, sixteen when trump beat the odds, a Lotta people wanted to run you out of dodge yet you have stood by the model, but also tinkered at the margins in what ways well I would say that our forecast at a great job in two thousand sixteen because there are very few people that gave trump a thirty percent chance thirty percent is kind of a lot like a good major league baseball player getting. A base hit. So I don't think there's anything about our model that would intrinsically have necessitated change two, thousand, sixteen except we do have a global pandemic, we have a certain about how people are voting remember our voting by mail for the first time we have some of the worst economic data that we've had in the history of the country. We have all types of crazy new stories developing. We hit US SCREAM COURT JUSTICE DIE won't be nominated we the President himself cove. So, our model does try to account for the extra uncertainty selection, and as a result, it winds up being a bit more conservative relative to how it might have been any more quote unquote normal year. Lot of the grief in two thousand sixteen had less to do with your forecast than partisan expectations and polling illiteracy. What are you doing in two thousand, nine, hundred twenty to manage public and especially media understanding and expectations. When thing I think is we don't foreground the probabilities as much. Right you can see them right. But if you actually click on five thirty, eight, the forecast you see a bunch of different maps simulating different worlds that the election could turn out to be and there's verbiage and you have this kind of scroll down to see the numbers right because what thing? About like numbers is once you put a number in front of somebody then they of stopped seeing anything else or thinking about anything else we want to provide a context for people for them to understand where the uncertainty comes from something about what we're simulating, what we're not supported by the way to note that like our model does make some assumptions in one important assumption is that although it's counted, the Electoral College respects the popular vote in each state and those things are not certainties. So there's an attempt to steal the election that would be outside the scope of our model. What else are you doing to change your presentation part of it is the messaging that we have when we're doing media interviews like this or going on twitter right? It's kind of a matter of Tony how people interpret things in some ways though it's a little easier after twenty sixteen people have a visceral experience with the lower number coming up and people don't need as much persuasion as they might have to take stuff seriously first time. Shame on you second time shame on me. Yeah. So we're thinking about sports fans, sports fans don't tend to get mad at you if your battles Oh, there's only a thirteen percent chance that the New York. Giants football game and they win right maxine of games where they seem thirteen percent chance come up all the time and I have to get down to one percent or something. You know the Atlanta Falcons blowing a super bowl that might be different but people are used to dealing with probabilities. When it affects things they have to deal with every day. It seems like something abstract maybe they don't Crockett as much but we're trying to abstract what we're saying I guess right and make people understand that like look even if trump's chances down to five percent, well, five percent is fairly high when you're talking about potentially a world changing a life changing outcome. We're speaking on Thursday October fifteenth. With less than three weeks to election day. What does your data forecast for the presidential race? So as a this very moment, it has trump with the thirteen percent chance of winning Electoral College Biden with an eighty seven percent chance. So it's about one in seven. Let's say we round up to one in six hundred trump. You can think of it as a game of Russian roulette a we're winning six times. The Chiba comes up where trump would win. So He's far from out of the running at the same time. There's not really a precedent for a canny overcoming this large deficit this late in the race, you can maybe go back to dewey versus Truman in nineteen, forty eight where do we was ahead by five points over Truman and Truman one in this case, trump's down by more than that. So mathematically modeled thinks it's possible that he could win but we're. Running out of historical precedents that are favorable for him. So in some sense, I, think given how light Biden's lead in the polls is I. Tell People look at thirteen percent and say, hey, it's not a sure thing at the same time. This is not one of the more competitive elections that we've seen at least based on if the poll survey obviously. Is the football analogy that New York Times embraced last time around. Biden is looking at a very short field goal but. As you said, these are unprecedented times what could happen between now and November third To make him to miss that little trick shot. Well. This'll substances where it gets harder right. It's kind of one reason why I like to stick to the mathematical modeling is like it's hard for me to come up with a narrative by which trump comes back but there are a couple of things maybe some big Pharma Company Announces Progress on Covid Vaccine You get black stated that might make people feel more optimistic maybe there's A stimulus package that get some money voters, hands before the election. Again, that's looking a bit less likely but I should say by the way one crazy could happen is that what if the Democrats were to get code but there are people in Kamala Harris orbit were diagnosed with Covy, they're doing campaign events to win. So that's something that could happen but it's hard to know. I think trump's used to be doubling down on all the strategies that put him ten points behind to begin with, and so instead of pivoting, he's repeating a lot of very unpopular messaging on Kovic, for example, actually most voters favor precautions on Kovin. There's a myth of trump has being is masterful campaigner that I don't know really born out I think he was very clever. In how he won the GOP primary but just barely beat Hillary Clinton his party lost a ton of seats in the House and the midterms in two, thousand eighteen, and now if pulsa right we keep using that phrase he's in a lot of trouble in two, thousand twenty and so I'm not so sure that trump's instincts are as good as sometimes they're made out to be. You, mentioned that football fans have somehow managed to internalize on any given Sunday and you know maybe the New York giants could trounce the Kansas City chiefs. Is it a good thing that people have learned that the polls are not an absolute prediction. Yeah. They never an absolute prediction polls have not gotten any less accurate or any more accurate for that matter over the long run and Clinton lost despite only a fairly normal small pulling because she was not that far ahead in the first place. So yeah, people I I hope internalize the lesson that if a candidate is only a couple of points ahead in the polls then they're going to. Lose, not half the time less than half the time but fairly often again, this race is different in that Biden is more than a couple of points ahead you'd have to have maybe twice the that you had in two thousand sixteen for by delusion that can happen. But now we're getting a little bit more out on the tail of the probability distribution but pulse are always imperfect instruments for sure. Look I'm obliged to observe that after twenty sixteen I you got dumped on for somehow misleading the entire world about Hillary. Clinton's chances. Then Wayne you did interviews saying approximately what you have said today you got dumped on for being a defensive jerk I take you put. The conversation we're having now is this a way of inoculating you and fivethirtyeight against you know whatever outcome we should see on. November third. Status Strategy at all it's just me being honest. You know it it Mark Twain or whatever said, if you're just honest, you don't have to worry about saying the wrong thing. The honest truth is that Joe Biden is way way ahead in polls I don't conduct those polls but I think it's pretty reasonable to think that give them where the country is at that Joe Biden would have lead given. Things people are going through and how many people died of of Covid empirically could the polls the wrong enough for trump to win? Yes it's not likely, but it's it's hardly unfathomable. So you know I have to give people the best information that I can and I would love to hedge hedgewar love to say, Oh, it's sixty forty. You know who's going to win right but that wouldn't be honest. and. That wouldn't be responsible given what the data shows. So long run you know Biden should win seven out of eight times. I know we'll probably get more crap if the one out of eight times comes up but I can't do anything about that. I think it's the right forecast. Nate. Thank you so much. Definitely. Thank you. Nate silver is the founder and editor of five thirty, eight DOT COM and author of the signal and the noise why so many predictions fail but some don't. I just want to point out that was never mad at me. I, understand how the weather forecast. I. Appreciate. It was a good interview. Coming up an APP that offers A. For the convenient recruitment of online militias business onto media. Support for on the media comes from Lord, Jones between marathon zoom calls and stressful new cycles. We could all use some self care if you're curious about what CB can do for you, you'll want to start with the best and that's Lord Jones for years Lord Jones has been changing people's lives with their premium hump derived CD products offering everything from world class skin care to tinctures and Gel capsules to decadent gumdrops. Convictions see for yourself go to Lord Jones Dot. COM SLASH OTM to get twenty five percent off your first order. That's Lord Jones Dot Com, slash Otm for twenty five percent off your first order. This is on the media I'm Brooke Gladstone Bob Garfield. With fourteen. So called militiamen charged within the past two weeks in a kidnap plot against Michigan Governor. Gretchen Whitmer It has not been difficult to make certain critical connections stand back and standby but I'll tell you what stand back stand by he told them. He groups heard the president's words not as a rebuke but as a rallying cry as a call to action that was whitmer and yes, there has been action proud boys and Patriot prayer militia inciting violence in Portland the Neo Nazi atom Lafon Division Now rebranded as the national socialist ordered linked to five murders alleged teen shooter Kyle Rittenhouse unaffiliated but taking up arms with militiamen in Kenosha Wisconsin. This week secret tapes surfaced of a Neo Nazi group calling itself the base planning recruitment of current and former military. All with dog whistles, tweets and sometimes direct incitement from the president. So yes, easy to connect those dots. In a moment we will look at how these groups themselves connect to fellow travelers just among themselves. But first, let's consider yet a third kind of connection the language we use to put a name to the various activities pathologies on the violent far right. What. These locked and loaded paramilitaries called themselves is militias and that term has taken hold in the media to Gretchen Whitmer. Great Chagrin they're not militias. She tweeted this week they're domestic terrorists endangering and intimidating their fellow Americans. University at Albany Professor Sam. Jackson who studies anti-government extremism agrees that whatever the Wolverine. Watchmen. Are It sure isn't the militias our founders envisioned in the constitution. It seems that those who wrote the Constitution had this clear idea that there would be a standing military and then there would be this militia force which was organized by the states and the federal government had the authority under certain conditions to temporarily take control of those militia units kind of like what is now the Army National Guard exactly over the course of a number of decades what was originally described as the militia through a series of incremental changes in law became the National Guard. But what? Has Sprung up over the past thirty or forty years short. Isn't that these are unregulated paramilitaries not only independent of government but often hostile to government exactly. These are people who have adopted the label of militia pointing back to those founding documents in order to legitimize their paramilitary activity, they called themselves militias did the press just get suckered into accepting this constitutionally memorialized term I don't know if I would go that far I think it's reasonable for the media and for other observers to use labels that these types of actors create for themselves as long as the use of those labels comes with an explanation of what they mean and how they're being used. On the other hand. There are other words that convey so much more vigilante comes to mind. When I think of vigilantes is, of wild, West Frontier towns, posses taking it upon themselves to enforce the law, and while it may be true that some of these actors like those who are accused in Michigan in this plot to kidnap the governor while it may be true that they think of themselves as trying to enforce the law I think that vigilante may be gives a little bit too much credence to that. And just. Terrorist. Because of how language works, we label axes terrorism, and then we sort of adopt that same label to describe people who commit those acts. There's a little bit of potential confusion there. Though, because if someone lies one time, do we call that person a liar or do they need to have a habit of lying before we call them a liar does someone need to commit an act of terrorism to be a terrorist? Do they need to just plot an act of terrorism? Do they just need to express admiration for or support for an act of terrorism? Strictly. Speaking terrorism is political violence that is committed in order to focus attention on the cause. So an assassination for example, isn't necessarily terrorism but something designed to terrorize the public at large for sure. Do you know where these? Michigan, guys fall in The question is, would the kidnapping be an attempt to communicate to other people involved in government? Hey, this fate will happen to you as well. If you also engage in similar sorts of activity or if they were much more instrumentally, just thinking this governor is a problem therefore, we will kidnap this one person. Can you give me a roster of most prominent militia organizations? I'll offer a caveat before I do that though which is I tend to think of this as a movement rather than focusing in on groups. When scholars talk about movements, we often think about coalitions that are united by similar ideas or similar goals. The difference between that an organization or a group is that groups have relatively clear boundaries about who is a member versus not a member but social movement scholars, for example, would talk about a social movement as being made up of multiple groups and independent actors who are working together to promote similar goals. I do want to push back a little bit on something, which is that some of these militia groups are explicitly white supremacist and I think that that is by and large not true in the nineties and in the historical predecessors of these militia groups, there was more explicit racism. But as we saw the second wave of this movement emerged in two, thousand eight or so we really saw a rejection of racism and this. Is Not. Oh, I, am a white nationalist, not a white supremacist. This is people who are prominent and important within the movement saying we reject racism full stop such as the oath keepers. Exactly. So oath keepers is a really prominent group within this movement. Now of keepers formed in two thousand nine and they actually went through the trouble of writing up formal bylaws for their organization and one of the clauses in their bylaws is. That they prohibit anyone who has ever previously been affiliated with Racist Organization from joining their group, and in fact, the the president and founder of oath keepers when people ask him this question, his response is always I'm a quarter. Mexican. How could I possibly be racist? Now this is a little bit more complicated. Of course, than than these actors would like to portray it because there is still bigotry within their ranks. They would say we're not opposed to all. Emigrants were opposed to those who come in the wrong way we're not opposed to all Muslims were opposed to radical Muslims that distinction breaks down a little bit. When you look at their actual actions however I think it's really important to recognize that white supremacist groups, organizations and movements perceive a racial identity and they organize around that racial identity for those in militia groups. The identity that they're organizing around is a patriotic one or nationalist one, not a racial one. except when it isn't tell me about the Gulu movement. Boo. Goo fundamentally refers to this idea that America is soon to face a second civil war it refers to this Internet meme of anytime you're describing the second version of something you call it the thing to electric blue blue referencing this awful eighty s movie. So for the Bugaku folks they soon we're GONNA see. To Electric. Boo Glue. What gets complicated is there are anti-government elements that are explicitly organized around that anti-government stance and others who are explicitly organized around a sense that this second civil war that's coming this will be the race war that that we've been anticipating for so long. What about the three percenters we've discussed them on the show where do they fit into this ecosystem? Within the Patriot militia movement the second way that began in two thousand eight, there are two dominant factions within his own. And the second is three percenters. Unlike oath keepers three percents is not a formal organization with clear membership lists or anything like that. Instead three percenters refers to this dubious notion that three percent of those who lived in the British colonies in the late eighteenth century fought back against the British and one America's independence and people who adopt this language believe that if three percents of Americans today resist the tyrannical government, they can also defeat tyranny. What we saw was this language around three percenters emerged around the two. Thousand eight point and people around the country started adopting that rhetoric and the related symbol the Roman numerals three surrounded by a circle of stars and these different organizations that have incorporated three percenters into their name. In some way, don't necessarily have any relationship with other groups that have three percenters in their name, and in fact, there have been some call them internecine squabbles between different actors who adopt three percenters, rhetoric and symbols three percents ten million people in the United States We're not at that threshold are we. Know although the gentleman who came up with the idea that three percenters, his name is Mike Vanderbilt Oh he used to say we only need three percent of gun owners. There are one hundred, million gun owners in America. So that's three million people. What is an uncomfortable coincidence I hope people who studied gun ownership in America have found that three percent of gun owners own something like fifty percent of all of the guns held in private hands in America sweet mother of God I. Hope Those are different. I really hope that it's very unfortunate coincidence. Sam. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Sam Jackson is professor of Emergency Preparedness Homeland Security and Cyber Security at the university at Albany. As. We slouch toward November third, the fear of organized political violence looms large. But how exactly do such vigilantes or militiamen white nationalist terrorists call them what you will organize, mobilize, and coordinate their activities. How can they be deterred on the media reporter? Michael O. INJURE REVISITS THE COMMUNICATIONS AP far right groups us to fight the fight. It looks like we are going into the fray to mice to keep us in your prayers. Just. laughed. You'd horse message one from my father from my why this is a militia member speaking on a walkie talkie APP called zillow fashion fall. I won't be remembered. The Patriot. History. Show that I stood up. Against his territory. Not GonNa fall those I'm a warrior and I'M GONNA kids. He was psyching himself up before a showdown with Antifa that never happened I ran across many other violent fantasies like this while monitoring militia groups on Zillow, but the APP is better known for other things like communication by overnight truckers, activists in Venezuela and humanitarian aid efforts. Basically, the way that it works as people join a chat room and you push a button to talk and. When you release the button and you're done talking, it cuts your mic. Again, that's Hamptons stall in. Atlanta based researcher and founder of a blog called militia. Watch we teamed up on this story. When we learned, we shared a strong interest in tracking far-right activity on Zillow. There's like a little bit of a fetish cessation, of Ham, radio operation in the armed militia right the difference between. Ham Radio and Zillow is the zillow allows for very fast audio communication between a pretty good amount of people across any distance as long as people have connection to either wireless or cellular Internet another difference is that zillow records and saves everything that said users can also set a password and decide who's allowed to talk some militias. We found operate several zillow channels at the same. Time one for interviewing new recruits, one for leaders to discuss operations one for training in the woods and another for sharing Intel and small talk any regular radio commanded here the military or often replicated in Melissa use of walkie-talkie apps follow copy into like solid copy Radio Jack. lemmon Charlie to an outsider hearing this kind of talk it plays into a perception that it's a big Lark. Live action role play grown men playing army but I think it kind of stops being alert when the weapons are real. In, the past decade people associated with far right militias have plotted to bomb mosques, shot protesters and kidnapped migrants. At the southern border. We found a couple hundred such groups on Selah everything from Google boys to proud boys to outright white nationalists with the vast majority of such channels belong to three percent militias. These groups have drawn the media spotlight this year by rallying behind a steady stream of culture war causes. There was the Gun Rally Virginia noon as Lobby Day gun rights supporters gathered in huge numbers today in Richmond Virginia. They're protesting a wave of gun control measures being proposed by the newly elected Democrats couvert lockdown protests in Michigan as protesters moved into the Capitol Building Democratic State Senator Dunya poll, Hanky posted this photo saying directly above me men with rifles yelling at us some of my colleagues who owned bulletproof vests are wearing them. The black lives matter protests sparked by the murder George Floyd peaceful protests met by armed men and confederate flags and conspiracy theories of Antifa. Infiltrating white suburbs stay safe and lock and loaded. That's the warning in this facebook. Post made Tuesday afternoon police call it a false rumor that claimed ANTIFA had three busloads of members ready to hit neighborhoods in mom l.. It's an interesting situation that we find ourselves in where America is heavily armed right? Joan Donovan. Directs Research at the Shorenstein Center on media politics and public policy at Harvard University, and there are a lot of folks right now who have been socially isolated for very long period of time and have been reaching out through social media because they don't know how to assess the risks posed by the. Pandemic political environment that we're in the heightened polarization, the increased visibility of these armed groups combined with the anxiety anger about the news drove perspective recruits to right wing forums and facebook groups were militia guys shared passwords with step by step instructions about how to join their zealot channels and so join the group, and then the officers will invite you for an interview. Thus questions about what area you're in whatever sort of ideological requirements there are joining said militia what interested you in three percent movement where you heard about the pretty percent. I was actually approached and conversation during a anti bring tests, of Antiphon. In Brandon Mississippi. All you have the backing of your family. Do they know that you're on an interview tonight? I'm the man of the. House so Funny to go somewhere or do something that's going to happen to be clear neither. Hampton. Ever, pretended to be a militia guy or a potential recruit we merely lurked in the background. So what do you got kind of experience? You got military law enforcement medical. Everyone Bravo. Military Police I know a lot about. Weapons Munitions and a fair amount of gear. It's like a second job. Is Us our tyranny it's US or failure it's US or Opposed American world. Don't give to fly about anybody that's. One hundred percent all in. Are you all in over? Ain't got nothing. Hold me back terrific kills me kills me the ways in which those groups come together and do recruitment through platforms really has to do with them unapologetically believing that they can actually become a proxy for law. Enforcement Joan. Donovan, and so I think the continuous engagements with one another through social media has really normalized notion of the vigilante vigilantes. Of course, are not law enforcement. They're not accountable to the public or trained to de escalate violence. That's why some observers shudder at the thought of armed militias says standing guard at polling stations in November Monitoring Zillow we did hear some references to violence surrounding the election. But it was about how to react to it. We have to stay vigilant stay we'll trained and maintain our composure so that we don't ever far that for a shot that would kill us. Yeah. Roger that serve we fire the first shot we're done I mean. The public views turn around about us, and that's the way we need to keep it. We don't need to do anything to tarnish that they're fantasizing again an hour. There's GonNa be. Riots in the streets, we gotta be ready guys but they're not talking about themselves going out there and doing it Meghan Squire. A professor of computer science at University has been tracking discussions of the election from far right groups online. The whole vigilantism is catched in this language of protection and that started in earnest with the reopen protests, Olmeta protect your business from the police who are trying to shut you down. And then I went to George Flight Oh, I'm going to protect you from the looters and it's persisting. Now I'M GONNA protect trump from election meddling. That idea that the vigilantism is justified from a protection standpoint yet, which that's terrifying because now they have a reason right and it's the reason that makes them look like a hero and then there's this growing body of evidence that some local police departments are enabling it. Hours before Kyle Rittenhouse shot three protestors killing two in an alleged self-defense. He in the Kenosha Guard local militia were think by law enforcement they even offered the vigilantes bottles of water. Really. Now. Renounce provides a template for examining how violence might unfold in the coming months. Here was an armed vigilante who used social media to find other armed vigilantes with the approval of law enforcement. They've rolled the streets looking for conflict, but written houses overwhelmed when he found it and so he shot his way out. For better or worse police social media play crucial roles in the likelihood of these scenarios recurring. Let's start with the cops while listening to Zillow Hampton and I observed three times. When militia members claimed, they had coordinated with law enforcement. For example, one group called the Georgia three percent martyrs express deep distrust of the police in their chat room but claim to have teamed up with them at a beal protests south of Atlanta. Pain Yvo J. Three and myself rolled up at Southlake Mall in assisted the Morrow Police Department. We were in full battle rattle in pain even cited in on somebody and they didn't Mesler this that the police are. You know allegedly standing next to a militia member who is pointing a rifle and looking down his sights at said protester is. Highly troubling, I was interested in this so I reached out to a reporter named Robyn. Kemp who wrote for website that she started called the Clayton Crescent she was there at Southlake Mall, and she sent me audio of the scene. She. Walked with the protesters about one hundred and fifty of them. Almost. All African. American. People who are marking there was no violence or vandalism or anything like that. It was a very joyful. Oriented feeling of people assembling for the march in the parking lot of the shopping mall on the weekend and this time that we speak up, we stand up every let the world know like slapped. Was this like the only black lives matter protest at the southlake. Mall. Over the summer. I think that that was the only one. She did not see very many police officers there, and she did not see any militia guys there. If this did happen then the police in the militia were out of sight off to the side. It's very common for militias to either get on roofs or go around corners. Yeah and just e staged nearby. There was a black lives matter protests here in Atlanta back in. Twenty. Sixteen. I attended and as I was leaving, took a wrong turn and parking garage and ended up on the on the roof. And two spaces over there was a jeep with four men with rifles in their hands looking out over the protests. There's a lot of work that happens that. Super Visible. It's worth noting to that zillow's just one APP that militias used for organizing. So I wouldn't have access to their communication on say telegram or facebook chat in a written statement that Georgia three percent martyrs denied that they were at this event. The Moral Police Department did not respond to our requests for comment. A month after the monroe protests at. Of another potential police-militia relationship in Georgia I got word from Douglas County Sheriff's Day that they're supposed to have a protest asked in Douglas County of their monument and civil war on. Events. And they said within the next week, they may reach out and ask for assistance. And if possible will give it. That's two guys from the three percents security force speaking July second one week. Later, there wasn't fact black lives matter protest at the civil war monument, but we're not sure the three percents ever showed up the three percent security force militia denied that they had contact with the police. The. Douglas County Sheriff's Department did not respond to our requests for comment. The third example of alleged coordination between armed vigilantes and local police actually reveals a course of action for reducing violence in the future. It involves the Michigan home, guard a militia that made national news in May when defended Karl. Minke. Barbershop who defied state lockdown measures by reopening his business and burst of the Michigan militia say they will take action to keep Banke from going to jail. You're willing to stand in front of that door and blocked the entrance so. The police will have no entry there today a few weeks later, word begins to spread that there's an upcoming black lives matter protests in the works, a couple local politicians, and at least a couple armed militias including the Michigan Home Guard are preparing to attend then Livingston County Sheriff Michael, Murphy Post, this video to his department's facebook page. So here's the deal I've had personal conversation with rob from to a Mike, that Moore and former Sheriff Bob. Asked. All to stand down to not show up tomorrow. Let me tell the story back in the mid nineties. There was a KKK rally held on the steps of the old courthouse. That was the biggest non event that this county has ever seen the community really banded together and had other activities to do. A handful of people maybe twenty at the most showed up for the KKK to do their thing they realized that they didn't get the reaction that they were looking for they packed up and left. So it was a beautiful thing that said my plea is if you just stay away, there's no stage for anybody to make this thing goes sideways fascinating. Isn't that fascinating scene that? I, think it's a little problematic compare the K. K. K. Two black lives matter protesters. But I understand the point he was trying to make which is that showing up in force in response to something could have the effect of pouring gasoline on the fire. Yeah. In Michigan has an extensive. Right, wing militias referring to these militia as the to a community is laundering that history through something that is deemed a little bit more politically neutral a constitutional amendment. That's a good point and as I listened to Michigan Home Guard on Zillow kind of making sense of the message from the sheriff, there was some frustration and anger and I would also say confusion. So Livingston County? Sheriff. Their request said Michigan Home Guard and other that did militia groups to come and help him extra security and then later came out publicly and said, he did not do that. He does not want any way people there stay away. There was a rumor that spread in the Michigan Home Card zillow group that even after he made that video, he secretly said no Michigan Home Guard should come Nashville want you there. I just want you to stand back and extra nobody sees you more or less I still want them to come basically just want them to keep a low profile that's not shady at all pardon me but as. You know he should have just kept his mouth shut the next day the sheriff posted to facebook denying this rumor and again, there's a lot about what happened behind the scenes that we can't verify. But by addressing the militias publicly asking these groups to not show up the sheriff seemed to at least annoy them enough to the point that they decided not to go. Yeah. Our Lt gave us an official stand down. On the Livingston Thing Sheriff Michael Murphy denied that he was in contact with the militia. The Michigan Home Guard did not respond to our requests for comment. We couldn't get a complete picture of what happened in any of these examples but the tapes demonstrate that local law enforcement wield a ton of influence over local militia activity. The police may either ignore condone, invite it, or effectively tamp down social media companies face a similar choice. This summer facebook deleted thousands of militia pages. Twitter also booted a bunch of. Militia counts as did discord a smaller APP that has long incubated far right groups. We were very concerned about discord during the rise of the alright because discord was a minor APP in really wasn't able to understand enough about what was happening on its platform 'cause they would see oh, you know it's just thirteen people and that ends up being like Adamov. A group of people that are coordinating violence in the name of white supremacy exactly in. So zillow has to have a procedure in policy and enforcement mechanisms where they do not tolerate this kind of behavior unless it's the business model, you'd think it would be hard for zillow corporate to miss what's happening on their own platform if Hampton and I alone could locate to hundred far right groups ranging from oath keepers two straight up Nazis, according to Zillow's own terms of service. The APP can remove anything that quote represents promotion of celebration with violent extremist ideologies, groups, and tactics. We reached out to the company asking how it was enforcing its terms of service. In a written statement, Zillow told us that the company allows speech protected by the US Constitution and law. Late in our reporting process, we spoke with an employee from Zillow who asked to remain anonymous the employees sent us a company wide email from June that detailed some of the militia and white nationalist activity on the APP. The employee said that in a subsequent company wide meeting. Zillow. CEO. Bill Moore said essentially that because the platform was not legally responsible for any harm caused by those far right groups it would not kick them off the site Norwood Selo implement new moderation practices to deter this type of organizing and the future. zillow responded to us saying that the employees characterization is inaccurate and misleading and quote. The company confirmed that the most concrete actions to come out of its internal review where to One d index all pages of user generated content, which includes the far-right stuff from search engines. So now when you Google zillow three percent or Zillow Nazi, those channels don't show up, but you can still find them by searching on Zillow and to zillow removed a trending channels feature that may have amplified hate groups for zealous full response go on the Media Dot Org From now, until November third at least will be concerned about the potential for violence around the election. Researcher Megan Squire says her phone has been off the hook probably five times today different reporters five times yesterday every single day. That's the question and I'm getting no one knows the answer. But too much. Blood has been shed already for any Police Department or online platform to pretend there was nothing they could have done to help stop. For on the media, I'm Michael. That's it. For this week, show on the media's produced by Alana Casanova Burgess Michael. Leah fetter, John Hanrahan and Elouise Blondie with help from of Assani and our show was edited. By Brooke, our technical director is Jennifer Munson our engineers this week where Adrian Lily and Josh. Katkov, Rogers, is our executive producer on the media is a production of WNYC studios. I'm Brooke Gladstone and I'm Bob Garfield. Tenzin Vega and all month on WNYC's. Talk show the takeaway we're exploring the issues that matter most to Latino voters. So if you're a let the listener we want to hear from you what's most urgent for you and your family. In this election, call us with your stories at eight, seven, seven, eight, six, nine, eight to five, three gem knows electricity at the ultra wave convey those sink by dress and for more on the Latino vote subscribed to the take way wherever you get your podcasts.
The Evolution of All-American Terrorism (rebroadcast)
"Hey hey hey it's l. And i have some exciting news okay. So in july. We brought you american rehab. That was our eight episode series that covered tens of thousands of people desperately in need of help for their addictions but instead of getting treatment they were sent to work without pay sometimes add big corporations the new yorker called riveting urging and mind-bending and now we're making it available for your binging pleasure you can find by subscribing to reveal presents american rehab wherever you get your podcast again. That's reveal presents american rehab. Get to binging reveal brought to you by progressive one of the country's leading providers of auto insurance with progressive. Name your price tool you save. What kind of coverage you're looking for and how much you want to pay and progressive will help you find options that fit within your budget. Use the name your price tool and start an online quote today at progressive dot com price and coverage match limited by state law from the center for investigative reporting. Npr x this is reveal. I'm outlet in the morning of january. Six before the storming of the halls of congress reporter. David niwa tweeted prediction. Today is likely to be a historically violent day in the nation's capital there on the understatement. Didn't david was a surprise. That pro-trump extremists did what they did. In fact he had linked to a video from the night before shot on the streets of dc. In which a middle aged white man in a trump had tells a young white nationalist livestream back tomorrow. I don't even like say. Don't be a resident will all saying we need to go in to the capital. You certainly wasn't a surprise for any of the people who've been reporting on and researching the radical right here in the united states in the past year because they've been pretty upfront about. They were saying they're going to do this. David has been following the radical right for decades and a few years back. He in the nonprofit newsroom type investigations teamed up with reveal to start tracking. Would look to him like an uptick. In far right terrorism we put together a database of every single domestic terror events. Starting in two thousand eight in two thousand seventeen. That data showed that right wing. Extremists have become the biggest threat while law enforcement under president. Obama was focused on those acting in the name of islam. Last summer we ran the numbers for terrorism under president trump and we found that far-right terror had grown and become more lethal responsible for almost the same number of deaths during trump's first three years as during all eight years under obama and the men. It's almost always men who are responsible for. Many of those deaths were driven by the same ideology. There's a very specific stripe of quite nationalism. That were seen run through especially these more recent mass killings. Today were bringing back a show. We first aired last june. We're going to connect the dots to show. How extremist ideas and extremist violence spread online. And we'll ask why law enforcement is still struggling to catch up. Reveal reporter's stand alcorn priska mealy dug into this for months. Prisco starts us off with the story of a man who witnessed the deadliest domestic terror attack of two thousand nineteen jermont. Glenn is well known in el paso mexican american community. He seventy nine now and he's been a community organizer and labor rights activists for most of his life. We conducted a lot of protest. We blocked the bridge. We went to jail on august third twenty nineteen. He was just going about his weekend. Routine. it was a saturday morning. Right in around ten o'clock so i go to walmart to buy some pet food and i was way in the back and i heard his great big noise. A warning gamma was going to share graphic details about what happened that day. A large number of families women and men were running towards me from the front of the building and i noticed at least one of the women was dripping blood. As whether something really wrong. I ran into the woman who is she had. Both legs had received some type either. Shrapnel or bullet wounds and she was bleeding so i stopped there to help her and by grabbed the first aid kit and tried to at least tend to her wounds on her legs. One of the firemen or paramedics came. And you have to get her out with everybody out of the store so we put her in now in one of those Grocery baskets when he wheeled the woman to the front he saw what had happened right at the front door. There was a lot of blood. I knew then that they'd been shooter. It was very dramatic scene. I saw the body of a man with half his head shot. There was a lady lane on the payment across from where we're loading the people. I deny exactly who had out. I didn't how that information that he was actually shooting mexicans. The suspected gunman twenty one year old. Patrick cruise drove roughly ten hours from outside dallas to the el paso walmart right near the mexican border. Police say he opened fire. Twenty three people were killed and many were wounded and then he drove off minutes later. Patrick cruises stopped his car at an intersection near the walmart he came out with his hands raised in the air and stated out loud to the texas rangers. I'm the shooter. He's facing ninety federal charges including forty five heat crimes. After guillermo witness. What happened that day. He got in his car and went to the restaurant where his friends always gather on saturdays. Several my friends came up and hugged me and said oh you're okay. We're so glad we've been looking for you without doing. Might be there and then they showed me the manifesto the manifest. Oh minutes before the attack. The shooter at posted document filled with anti immigrant rhetoric to the online message. Board eight chan. Some of your friends showed him a copy. So i sit down. I had some food at some. My regular saturday menudo and then i finally realized what had happened right after i read the manifesto. The crucial manifesto reads kind of like a corporate website. It has an about me section and parts where he outlines his warped vision for america he matter of factly explains how his attack will preserve a world where white people have the political and economic power peaceful means will no longer achieve his goal reporter. David nye were says this. Alleged shooter is the quintessential trump era terrorist a man largely radicalized online entrenched in white nationalist ideology and fueled by the belief that white men like himself are being replaced by latino immigrants crucial wrote that the media would blame president trump for inspiring him but he claimed that his ideas predated the trump campaign. Here's david porter cruises especially was so filled with loathing for latino people that he didn't see them as human. When david reads the manifesto he can immediately see the fingerprints of other white nationalists. Here's how crusius opens his manifesto. In general i support the christ church shooter and his manifesto. This attack is a response to the hispanic invasion of texas. They are the instigators. Not me. I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement ron by an invasion that opening line direct signal back to a previous act of terrorism. The shooter who killed fifty one people at two mosques in christchurch new zealand just months before. David says this is part of a trend. One terrorist inspires another and the cycle continues gear mo. Says he didn't understand all of the references at first but it was clear to him that the manifesto had ties to a larger movement. He was trying to show that somebody had to take action. That really angered me at that. Brunt why would somebody come and shoot innocent people. David says crucial started doing online research. Because of the anger he felt over how the country was changing demographically in the process of doing this research he came across multiple white genocide theories including the great replacement the great replacement or replacement theory unites many acts of hate that we see across the country around the world. And that's this. That comes out of nationalism that white europeans face a global genocide at the hands of brown people and that they're being slowly rubbed out of existence. Only a few terrorists in recent years have reference to replacement theory by name but it's widely popular among right wing extremists. It's linked to ideas that are many decades old but one attack in europe. Showed how those ideas can be weaponized. Andres brive ix terrorism attack in oslo and notorious island norway in two thousand eleven breivik killed seventy seven people in a bombing in mass shooting before the attack he sent out a fifteen hundred page manifesto about how he planned to lead white supremacists on a crusade against it quote islamification of europe around the same time a french writer named renaud camus refined and popularized the ideology in a book the title translates to the great replacement and the great replacement essentially. Is this idea that brown people particularly refugees and immigrants from arab countries in europe are being deliberately brought into the country in order to replace white people as the chief demographic and the conspiracy theory claims. All of this is orchestrated by a ball of nefarious. Globalists' that's code for jews. In august two twenty seventeen white supremacists in the us took this concept as a rallying. Cry at the unite. The right rally in charlottesville. Virginia the next day a neo nazi drove his car into a crowd in killed thirty two year. Old heather higher. This incident had an immediate impact on the public perception of terrorism. Making it clear that white nationalist violence is a serious threat today. The nightmares hit home here in the city of pittsburgh at a pittsburgh synagogue in twenty teen robert bowers is accused of killing eleven people. He went to a jewish synagogue because he was angry about the latin american caravans. The caravans had been all the news in the weeks prior to that synagogue attack you know. He blamed jews and went to a drew synagogue to take revenge. For latino emigration these are the ideologies that are zigzagging across the globe in march two thousand nineteen but gunman who live streamed his mass shooting in christchurch new zealand on facebook also wrote a manifesto the title the great replacement. The new zealand manifesto inspired the paso shooter to target the people. He felt were replacing him. Recent manifestos in books put a new spin on violent hateful acts but david traces these sentiments back much further. What's remarkable in a lotta ways. When i read these manifestos is so. Many of them are expressing ideas that i read in the nineteen twenties coming from your geneticists. Look i would even take it back to the eighteen nineties when we first started seen the wave of lynchings in the south as a foreign social control this very clearly a form of terrorism after the el paso shooting activist gear glenn says white supremacist. Ideology was barely part of the conversation. There were brief efforts to unite the community against hate a few events held under the banner el paso strong the politicians the businessmen the mayor. Everybody was pushing this idea that we added survive. You know but they weren't really talking about who caused it or why before we talked for this story gear mo says he didn't identify as part of this larger group of survivors that includes jewish and muslim communities. You know you say well. It's it's the jewish people that they attacked. It's the muslim people that he attacked. And you're on the border with the mexican and central americans but nobody talks about. What does the great replacement mean. Nobody put all these incidences together and say. Hey this is something that we should be aware of nationally. And he says that's part of the failure heart of the reason. These attacks keep happening. That story from reveals friskin neely. We've been saying. These extremist groups are using online communities to spread their messages and find new recruits. When we come back we'll hear how it works. It's a conditioning process. It's a grooming process. And i let myself fall into that the evolution of the white supremacist internet next on reveal. Thanks to our sponsor net. Sweet if you're a business owner you don't need us to tell you that running a business tough don't let quickbooks and spreadsheets slow. You down anymore. Now is the time to upgrade to net suite by oracle the world's number one cloud business system that net. Sweet show you how they'll benefit your business with a free product tour at net sweet dot com slash. Reveal schedule your free product tour right now at net sweet dot com slash reveal net sweet dot com slash. Reveal if you like what we do and you wanna help well. It's pretty simple. Just write us a review on apple. Podcasts it's easy and only takes a few seconds just opened the apple podcast app on your phone search for reveal. Then scroll down to where you see right or review and there tell them how much you love the host. Your review makes it easier for listeners to find us and it really does make a difference. If you do it you will get a personal. Thank you for me like right now. Like we're not him not you. Yes you thank you so much thank you thank you thank you thank you. Thank from the center for investigative reporting. Impe are x. this is reveal amal edson. we're continuing with our show. We first broadcast last summer about domestic terrorism during the trump administration the fbi and academic researchers say. There's no such thing as a terrorist profile. You can't tell who's going to become a terrorist with a personality tests or demographic checklist but the young white men who attacked the synagogues in pittsburgh and palais and the walmart no paso that a lot in common not only were they motivated by the same conspiracy theory about why people being replaced. They develop those ideas in some of the same spaces online to them even posted their manifestos to the same website. Eight chan now. you can't blame. Today's white supremacist terrorism on the internet. But you also can't understand it without talking about the way. The white supremacist movement uses the internet. And how it's changed over. The last decade reveals stand alcorn is tell. That story is of a man who lived here stan. Josh bates decade as a white supremacist started in his mid twenty s with youtube video about the presidential candidate. He says he supported at the time. Iraq obama i was scrolling through the comments section. You know he's a muslim wasn't or your things of that nature at somebody said you guys sound like those storm front letting the world is storm from storm front is a message board that a former. Kkk leader set up in the nineties. Josh says he went there at first because he was curious then to argue but then the middle age message board neo. Nazis started winning him over. How could they be convincing in these arguments like. Can you help me understand that a. I wish i can answer that question. Because i still ask myself that. Allot how could. I ended up falling for something like that. But i guess similar to how we look at people who fall into 'cause it's a conditioning process it's a grooming process and i let myself fall into that the experts. I talked to say that first step is more about the person than what they're stepping into. Josh had just left the marines where used to have a team and the mission now. All we had was a computer. It's pretty concurrent with a whole lot of people where they felt really deeply disempowered in their lives shimin. Martinez is a former white supremacist. Who's helped people including josh. Leave the movement and so when you encounter information that's presented that this is like the real truth the true truth people don't want you to have because if you did it would be to empowering for you and to disempowering for them like that's an incredibly powerful like toxic drug that drug widely available on the internet is at its heart a conspiracy theory. It says your problems aren't your fault. It's immigrants black. People jews. they talk about. Oh no hollywood and the media all these jews are in these positions of power. You know when you google that kind of stuff you see it and you consume it eventually after a few months kinda get desensitized to it and everybody's agreeing with everyone for the most art you get along. There's online community star front. Was kinda my first one. He didn't know their names but they were his team. Now it's been the next ten years as what he calls a keyboard warrior for the white supremacist movement. He'd be there for every step in its evolution from joining the kkk and the neo nazi national socialist movement to more diffuse groups and websites that call themselves all right and identity. -tarian some of these groups would go to some lengths to appear respectable and say we're not racist. We're not nazis were the kkk. And then some of those groups were nazis. They were the k. k. k. And you were in all of them. Does that tell you that. The differences between these groups are more about that image and the tactics than absolutely the core ideas or who they attract. Absolutely we've been using the terms white nationalism onepointoh by nationalism two point oh a few years now and one point oh is your early. Groups cookouts clan. They're they're very explicit associates movement waterhouse whilst goes on their uniforms under flags. Your two point. Oh guys they're your identity eurobus. Where other dressing in khakis collared shirts doc shoes and they got these nice cropped haircuts they call it good optics but anybody who was in the early one point oh movements like myself i can see right through you know. They just put lipstick on a pig. Solid did but people who followed the white supremacist movement for decades like type investigations reporter david wert they say that this alright makeover of the old racist right it was transformative that radical right was very backward looking very stiff and formal. They didn't have any. Humor was not part of their repertoire. Infect their primary recruitment demographic really was mandatory in the ages of forty and sixty with the advent of the outright. But we saw was this. Very tech savvy very agile movement that instead of running away from sort of the culturally savvy component aspects of the internet rather embraced them holy instead of writing racist newsletters. That people had to sign up for they were making memes and jokes and places like read it and fortune and these forms that celebrated being politically incorrect. There were perfect place for those ideas to take root hybridize with other fringe ideas and grow into something that can be shared on more mainstream platforms like twitter and facebook and it was. You know very brilliant because it meant that suddenly their recruitment demographic was much larger and had you know a lot more political activists energy They were younger. People and josh bates says that energy got a huge boost in two thousand sixteen with the rise of a new presidential candidate. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime their rapists and some i assume are good people because trump was spouting off a lot of the same talking points as general white nationalists. He breathed new life into that. Move and the thought leaders of the movement took full advantage. Second a take it even further and they did. They started to take their ideas into the real world. They were being emboldened by trump and acting out after trump's election in two thousand seventeen computer scientists. Megan squire setup software to track extremists on facebook. She started out studying the misogynist gamergater movement but that it letter to different anti muslim and neo confederate and white supremacist groups at the time. Facebook was a central player. If not the central player in it was the place where these guys all wanted to be. And i was looking for crossover ideological. Crossover group membership crossover. Just trying to. I guess Map that ecosystem of hate on facebook. She watched this ecosystem plan. What one neo. Nazi website would call the summer of hate anti muslim marches misogynist proud boy rallies. And what was shaping up to be this real world mita of all these different mostly online hate groups the unite the right rally in charlottesville virginia. This is where she came across josh bates. There was the person who was talking about. They didn't have enough money to to charlottesville and that someone else suggested. Hey we have the crowd funding site one at you set up a fund raiser when megan click the link. She saw this whole list of white. Supremacist fundraisers on a website. Josh had built because go fund me had started cutting them off. It was the beginning of what megan calls. All tech at. The time we're talking about tech was basically just replacements that were coated and controlled by people. Probably in the movement are close to the momentum. At least like didn't care about waste premises using their services so they're replacing patriotic with hadrian. Like it's kind of one match there but when it came to advertising the rally the outright didn't need all tech they had a facebook event page and it was being promoted by hate groups that facebook had allowed to remain on the site even after they were reported by civil rights advocates. I mean i'm a solo researcher with a laptop in rural north carolina. And i was able to find well over two thousand hate groups operating on facebook in like a couple of months. So you know i don't have a lot of the that facebook's in no it was happening right like that's ridiculous. Meghan decided to go to the rally in person in part to see if this convergence of hate she was seeing on facebook would happen in real life. Josh bates went for the same reason. Never the history of white nationalism that many people all showing up at one. Place ahead sam clamp roba all these groups all the groups that you'd ever been a member of yet pretty much and when you see that many people show up to support a common cause it kind of feels you up a little bit. Maybe a little enthusiasm among any. Maybe this isn't dying. Maybe this maybe this could go forward. That's exactly right. I believe that that's exactly why you have to shut that stuff down because this is not the kind of people we need to be a massive power. The rally wasn't shut down but when it turned violent and a white supremacist killed. Heather higher reporter. David wert says this whole plan to unite. The racist right backfired. All of these groups started splitting their is huge infighting over whether they did the right thing and in fact the social media platforms actually then began taking it seriously although that seriousness varied from platform to platform reminded me of lake. When you catch a kid doing something. They're not supposed to be doing and all of a sudden they're incredibly. Sorry but they already did. You know there wasn't a whole lot of foresight there there. Sorry after the fact it's a pattern we've seen over and over the last few years a terrorist attack happens the social media platforms put out statements. But don't fundamentally change their policies on youtube. You can still find old video manifestos from right wing domestic terrorists. Facebook didn't ban white nationalist content until a year and a half after charlottesville. The main step they did take at the time was to remove the accounts of bunch of individual users and groups. But that means. I don't get to just climbing hands okay. We're done here good job. They got platform. Because my job is to worry about where they're gonna go next. You would push them off of platforms like twitter and they would just from create their own new platform and they called it gab. And it was just straight for white nationalist and amazon gab. For instance that the man who conducted the terrorism act against the tree of life Synagogue did most of his organizing he networked with other white nationalists and had a long string racist and antisemitic posts before his infamous final message. Screw your optics. i'm going in on these alternative platforms vacant talk as though they didn't have to fear Sensors or monitors or people looking over their shoulders so they were much more open and explicit about their hateful and not just their hateful nece but frankly their lust for violence. The rhetoric became incredibly violent on a lot of these smaller platforms and this journey trying to go mainstream only to retreat back to the violent fringe. It's the journey josh. Made to and. That's kind of the trajectory of going from white nationalist. One zero two point. Zero things are going on ground and finding this thing called the base. The base is a neo. Nazi network with an explicit focus on real world violence. The shared bomb making manuals and planned paramilitary trainings to prepare for a coming race war. When news broke that eleven people had been murdered at the tree of life synagogue. They talked about in terms of tactics. Josh wrote in their private chat infrastructure is what needs targeting small hits like yesterday's most striking fear into many that only ultimately served to embolden the enemy. While they're still strong yes he i don't even remember say. I guess that goes to show those playing a role in a sense and is just starting to play this role and you start getting into. That's the sound of someone who was enthralled with the idea of being a hero. That's how the whole heroes dynamic works is that you are playing a role you've created this image for yourself of being the hero and now it's really important for you to live up to it and this is how people who've been radicalized can get talked into committing acts of violence is that they feel like they have to have to prove that they are the heros. They've made themselves out to be in their own minds. Josh left the basis chat room in november of twenty thousand eighteen. He says he was turned off by all. The glorification of violence a couple of weeks after that atlanta anti-fascist published an article exposing his long history in the white supremacist movement and within days. He was tweeting that he was out of the movement for good looking back now. I don't see myself staying in room. No matter getting. Dr not is just tiring i just don't And obviously everything about it is wrong. Ideological racial social. Everything is wrong. Other men who stayed in the base would go on to be arrested for vandalizing synagogue plotting to murder a couple. They believed were antifa activists and trying to start a civil war at a gun rights rally in virginia the f. b. i. says the greatest terrorist threat in the united states today comes from what they call lone offenders terrorists who get their radical ideas from online communities who attack without ever coordinating with anyone else in the real world according to our database. They're responsible for nearly half the terrorist fatalities since trump took office. It's a list that includes the tree of life shooter. Robert bowers the powei synagogue shooter earnest and the el paso walmart shooter. Patrick cruces a lot of people will be exposed to these same ideas and not respond in a violent way but it doesn't take very many of them to actually cause a whole lot of harm for law enforcement that tricky question here is. How can you tell from what someone says online that they're actually going to commit an act of violence but for the rest of us. There's a different question. That's maybe even trickier what do we do. When people say things online that might help push other people to commit acts of violence. Josh said in our interview that over the course of his ten years in the white supremacist movement he only spent a grand total of maybe five days doing things in the real world. His role was setting up websites. Organizing online and writing propaganda like an article he wrote for right dot com retold. His fellow white people to quote rekindle your inner hate and that an honorable. Death must be earned. You've talked about this saying you didn't do anything you were just writing things but just as you were radicalized through reading things online. So as robert bowers so as john ernest. So as patrick crusius isn't writing something doing something and do you think what i mean by doing something years. Irl like actually getting out to. That's what i'm doing something. But he's starting to think that distinction doesn't really make a difference. I didn't actually go any street brawls or physically attack anybody but that's no different than something encouraging others to do. You know what i mean. I would consider myself in a way. A domestic terrorist is i was i was spouting off some of these same ideas and you know it's feel so weird to to reference herself in that way but you know add to be honest The things josh did may not meet the fbi or the department of justice's definition of terrorism. They didn't even get him kicked off social media but he says he'll be making up for them for the rest of his life stories from reveals. Stand alcorn we reached out to facebook for comment. They sent us a statement saying that they don't wanna be a place for promoting hate or violence and that they're making progress. We reached out to youtube and the global internet form to counter terrorism as well but they didn't respond if social media companies aren't stopping white supremacist. Terrorism what about the us government. That's after the break on. Reveal you wanna know more about how we do what we do with our weekly newsletter takes you behind the scenes are investigations. Change laws minds and show. We like to say it. The world be among the first read them just takes newsletter two four seven four seven four seven. You can stop at anytime. Standard data rates apply again takes newsletter. Two four seven four seven four seven from the center for investigative reporting pr. x this is reveal. I'm outlets and a year after josh bates left the white supremacist group. The base another member of the organization shot a video of himself. Speaking into a camera wearing a gas mask. He was calling on white people to acquire weapons derail trains and poison water supplies in order to ensure the survival of the white race later. A federal judge outside of washington. Dc would read a transcript of that video into the record before prosecutors held a press conference as the evidence gathered by the fbi demonstrates these defendants who are self proclaimed members of the white supremacist group. The base were dedicated to the idea of doing harm to african americans. Jewish americans and who the defendant. You'd is a threat to their twisted idea of a white ethnos state put simply this domestic terrorism investigation likely saved lives but this law enforcement stopping white supremacy terrorism before it happens has been the exception. According to the database we put together with type investigations from two thousand eight to twenty nineteen law enforcement stopped about one. In three terror plots by white supremacists and other right wing extremists over that same period they stopped terror plots by those claiming to act in the name of islam at more than twice that rate they stopped three out of four of those in other words. The fbi seems to do a better job going. After terrorists whose ideas resemble the nine eleven attackers then the right wing terrorist. Who killed far more people in the two decades sense but in the last year and a half reporter. David says the f. b. i. statements and arrests seemed to show a shift towards taking white supremacist terrorism. More seriously it's very clear that the fbi has caught on that. This is a problem but it's also very clear that they have a lot of catching up to do and getting the fbi to describe how it's catching up is an easy. His reveals. stand alcorn again. In theory there are people who can force the fbi to explain itself congress but congress has not always been focused on white supremacy terrorism. Either for instance this hearing from twenty eleven the committee on homeland security will come to order led by republican congressman from new york. peter king. This committee cannot live in denial. Which is what some of us would do when they suggest that this hearing dilutes focus by investigating threats unrelated to al qaeda the department of homeland security and this committee were formed in response the al qaeda attacks of september eleventh. There's no equivalency of threat between al qaeda and neo nazis environmental extremists or other isolated. Madmen only actually. There are more than twice as many right wing domestic terror incidents that year as anything inspired by groups like al qaeda according to data and that was my privilege to Recognize the distinguished ranking member of the committee the gentlemen from mississippi mister thompson the ranking member or top democrat bennie thompson. Thank you very much Champion had a different perspective on a stand at our personal experiences. Play a role in how we see the world. We've all come to this place from somewhere else. I'm from mississippi. Become the first black mayor of his hometown in nineteen seventy-three a place where cross burnings used to intimidate civil rights activists twenty years later when he was elected to congress. He made national news for pushing to finally prosecute the mastermind of a kkk killing. That happened when he was in college. But we're not here in these places now as members mishearing. He brought up an arrest. That happened just the day before a man had placed a bomb along the route of a martin luther king day march in spokane washington news reports identified a suspect as a member of the same white. Supremacist group that influenced oklahoma city bomber. Timothy mcveigh i urge. You must chairman to hold a hearing examining the homeland security threat posed by anti government and white supremacist groups. Are you back over the next eight years thompson and democrats would keep asking for that hearing on domestic terrorism. They'd never get it. And i called up congressman thompson on skype but his office in bolton mississippi the same town that elected mayor nearly fifty years ago there about five hundred people. Who live in this town tibet. You must know every single one of the marlins not only do. I know them. I know their business. They know my business no secrets. We talked about how it felts to struggle to get his colleagues to pay attention to this threat of right wing terrorism. While you know it was plus straighten. Be honest with you 'cause I knew this problem growing in america and somehow committed was missing the opportunity to address. And that's unfortunate but in twenty nineteen. Democrats took control of the house and bennie thompson. Took control of the homeland. Security committee and eynulla advocating jamel. We held the here and it was only in this hearing that members of congress in the public. Get a chance to see in here for the first time What was going on this. Hearing and other democrat lead oversight hearings got the fbi to finally acknowledge the serious threat of white supremacy terrorism. They said that coup racially motivated. Violent extremism was now as big. A threat is isis. But these hearings didn't turn up a lot of details on exactly what the fbi was doing to deal with that threat on the ground. Like the number of agents are cases or so. I asked the f. b. i. Agent in charge of canada terrorism for the newark field. Joe dan i think there's really been a a surge in what we assess as as racially motivated violent extremism both here in new jersey and across the nation. I think a lot of the profiles of the subjects. We're we have seen conduct successful tax or younger males All of them really radicalized line. Now that the velocity of those threats and successful tax appears to be increasing. We obviously dedicate greater number of resources to that threat. When when you talk about that Dedicating a greater number of resources. Can you share anything In the way of numbers something to kind of just concretely. Get a sense of what that looks like you. Unfortunately i can't give any specifics on that In terms of our personnel or assets. But i tell you that there's a tremendous emphasis put on this We recognize that. The threat is evolving. And we're evolving with it. No question about it and just to be clear. Why is it that you can't give more details on that. I'm not comfortable talking about you. Know the number of agents that we have working a specific threat so no numbers and then there's the term itself racially motivated violent extremism. Why call it that. Are we primarily talking about white supremacy terrorism question that you know white racially motivated. Extremism is a very serious problem. Will what else fits into that Or what he isn't saying is the whole point of the term racially motivated. Violent extremism is that they are not just talking about white supremacists who've been responsible for more plots and attacks in the last few years than any other kind of terrorist in our database. What happened was in two thousand seventeen an f. b. i. Document was leaked to foreign policy magazine. About something they called black identity. Extremists the fbi. Define them as anyone using violence quote in response to perceived racism and injustice in american society in particular police. Brutality it was so broad former. Fbi agent mike german said basically. It's black people who scare them when congressman thompson heard about it not from the fbi but from reading about it in the press he wondered if it was really about countering terrorism at all i went through co intel pro in the sixties. Fbi staying on people of color and so they said look we trying to unfairly targeted black people and black organization again. This was a scandal and the fbi said it got rid of the black identity extremist category but in twenty nineteen more f. b. i. Documents were leaked to reporters ken clip insane and they showed that the f. b. i. Had really just taken the identity. Extremists and the white supremacists and put them both in one combined. Category racially motivated violent extremism. Can you say with confidence now. That the b. I. is not focusing on so-called black identity extremists as a terrorist threat and potentially going after no okay and why not. I hear that the head of the oversight committee looking at them. Why can't you say it with confidence that you know because you know a lot of what i've found that as a member of congress is as a term a need to know even though you might be in a classified setting and supposedly they have top secret. Clearances are still so the information they if an agency aside of for whatever reason you don't need to know it and i'll file -bility they're not going to win. The fbi is lack of transparency is why we built our own domestic terror database. And it's also why the most important thing the last congress did on domestic tear might be something that's barely been noticed tucked into the twenty twenty national defense authorization act on page nine hundred fifty seven. There's language that requires the fbi to for the first time. Lay out in detail. Its own domestic terror. Data describing every incident assessment and investigation since two thousand nine and breaking them down by category and saying exactly how many agents are working each threat. Why would you have to pass an in congress to get somebody to collect data at all to be of one's job Needless to say we had to take it to that level and you had to get it in the defense spending bill to rent. Yeah well you know what you call a little home cooking. The law gave the fbi a deadline for that domestic terrorism report. It was right around the time. This story first aired in the summer of twenty twenty but the fbi didn't make that deadline in fact the report still isn't out when i called congressman thompson again. Last week the report was than six months overdue. We can pay us all the legislation we want to but if the implementation is delay to the point that it did happen. That really doesn't help anyone. He blames the slow pace on the trump administration. So i'm looking forward to the biden administration calling on the fbi. The follow the law. We spoke on the day. He voted with two hundred thirty one of his house colleagues to impeach president trump for incitement of insurrection. The vote took place in the room been forced to flee a week before after hearing gunshots in the halls of congress. Now in preparation for biden's inauguration. The building was surrounded by high fence and hundreds of national guard. Troops were sleeping in their uniforms on the marble floors immediate comment and i'm picking up. My colleague is well. I didn't see any of this on the sixth of january. And so. I think it's a legitimate question. Where was the cavalry when you need it. He called it a failure in leadership insecurity in sharing and acting on intelligence and also called it an act of right wing domestic terrorism. The kind he's been warning about for years story was from reveals stand. Alcorn the fbi's been tracking down people involved with the storming of the capital. The same people that cops let walk away the day off. Dozens have been arrested as record this a number that's expected to grow into the hundreds but this is only the beginning the lies in the rage behind the violence. We saw that day. They aren't going to just quietly disappear and where they take us. Next is something the fbi to new president and all of us are going to be grappling with for a long time. This week show was produced by stan. Alcorn and mealy and edited by jen. Psaki tila nita's with help from mr kaplan and suo special thanks to our partners at type investigations. David niwa darren ingram and sarah blue stain victoria. Bear netscape is our general counsel. Our production managers aiming stafa are sound design. Team is the dynamic duo. J. breezy jim briggs. Fernando my man yo arruda this week show was mixed and score by rahm teen arab. Louis special thanks to jeeva meaning and brit simpson are. Ceo's krista scharf berg mad thompson is our editor and chief. Executive producer. is kevin sullivan. Our theme music is by colorado lightning support for reveals provided by the river. David logan foundation the john. D and catherine t. Macarthur foundation the johnson logan family foundation the ford foundation the housing simmons foundation the democracy fund and the ethics and excellence in journalism foundation. Reveal is a co production of the center for investigative reporting impe. Mpr exc i'm outlets and remember. There is always more to the story.
January 6 Oversight with No Bull
"That cau- chief son pleaded to have national guard support at the capitol immediately that was reinforced by chief. Conti we need them. They're right now. The capital will be breached. I'm benjamin witness and this is the law fair. Podcast march fifth two thousand and twenty one on wednesday the senate homeland security committee and the senate rules committee held their second. Hearing to examine the january six attack. on the capital. Four officials from different agencies testified from the department of homeland security from the fbi from the pentagon and from the dc national guard. These witnesses were melissa. Smith slovo who performs the duties of the under secretary at dhs's office of intelligence and analysis. Jill sanborn assistant director of the fbi counterterrorism division robert seles who performs the duties of the assistant secretary for homeland defense and global security at the defense department and major general william walker the commanding general of national guards. We took out all the nonsense. All the opening statement all the repetitions and brought you every question every answer only once. What explains the delay in deploying national guard troops. What reforms are the agency's planning to implementing handle the threat posed by domestic extremist violence and white supremacist groups and why was the intelligence reporting late and insufficient. It's the law fair. Podcast march theft january six oversight with no bull. Start my questioning by going back in time. A little bit prior to the events on on january sex so my question is in june of twenty twenty as violence was escalating during the summer protests. Were you able to immediately receive approval from the secretary of the army and the secretary of defense to deploy national guard to assist law enforcement at that time. Senator peters i was yes sir. The secretary of the army was with me for most that week. He came to the armory. I was in constant communication with him when he when we were not together. So you are immediately able to to to receive approval in june of twenty from your testimony. Want to be clear you were. Were you able to immediately receive approval from the secretary of the army and the secretary of defense to deploy the national guard on january. Six knows her. In your opening remarks you said that january fifth memo. How was unusual. Could you explain to the committee why it was unusual. And what was the impact of the memo that you on january fifth so the memo was unusual in that i was it required me to seek authorization from the secretary of the army and the secretary of defense to essentially even protect protect my guardsmen. So no no Civil civil disturbance equipment could be authorized unless it was came from the secretary of defense. Now the secretary of the army to his credit did tell me that i could have forced protection equipment with the garden so we did have helmets. Shin guards vest. We did have that with us. But that came from the secretary of the army. The secretary of defense told me. I needed his permission to escalate to have that kind of protection that kind of protection even though you would be engaged in force protection than to protect your your men women before you could do that. You would have to get approval from the secretary of defense. The memo from the secretary of defense made clear that i needed his permission to to have So what it says without my personal authorization. The district of columbia national guard is not authorized to following to be issued weapons ammunition bayonets times or ballistic protection such as helmets and body armor. Now again to be clear. The secretary army told me to go ahead and issue that equipment so we never were gonna have weapons or ammunition and we no longer have bayonets but we do have a ballistic protection equipment helmets body armor and so i did have that would each guardsmen. Thank you journal so but that was unusual as you mentioned to have that kind of request you were on the june. The january six phone call at two thirty that we heard from our previous hearing where the Chief of capital police was making an urgent appeal for help And we heard that the dc metro police chief senate was a tepid response. He was shocked by what happened on that call. What was your recollection of The call and the assessment of the two individuals i mentioned. Was that your assessment as well. Yes sir so that that call came in it. Was we actually help precipitated. The deputy mayor from the disco columbia And dr rodriguez chief conti Chief ceann later joined the conversation and we dowd in the senior leadership of the us army and at that time chief content chief son passionately pleaded for district of columbia national guard to get to the capital with all deliberate speed So the army senior leaders did not think that it look good. It would be a good optic they further stated that it could for it. The the crowd so their best military advice would be to the secretary army who could not get on the call so we won at the secretary of the army to join the call but he was not available. We were told that he was with the secretary of defense and not available but the army's senior leadership express to chief county. Chief john Dr mitchell deputy mayor and others on the call that it would not be their best mood. Terrier advice to have uniform guardsmen on the capital. So so during the call. You're saying that that optics was raised on on on that call specifically so i wanna go back to the state of the question i started you said that you're able to get immediate authorization in the summer of two thousand twenty. During those protests general walker was the issue of optics ever brought up by army leadership when the d. c. national guard was deployed during the summer of twenty twenty. Was that discussed. It was never discussed the week of june. It was never discussed july fourth when we were supporting the city. It was never discussed august twenty eighth when we supported the city. Did you think that was unusual. I did so. Let's put in context you in your opening statements. You mentioned the national guard troops. Were ready to go. You had them back at the armory. How many folks were in the armory ready to go. Once the order was given at. What were they ready to go. So i had them ready to go shortly after the phone. Call so I brought at fifteen hundred. I directed that the quick reaction force that was based at andrews airforce base. Leave the base. Get to the armory at all. Deliberate speed ahead a police escort. Bring them to the armory. They returned to the armory about twenty minutes. So we had them sitting there waiting. And then in anticipation of a green light ago We put guardsmen on buses. We brought them inside the armory so nobody would see them them putting on the equipment and getting on the buses and then we just wait it. to to get the approval. And that's why we were able to get to the capital about eighteen minutes. What time were they on the buses ready to go. You recall before. Five o'clock but at five o'clock i decided. Hey you know we've got this got to be an approval comment so get on the buses. Get the equipment on on the buses and just wait and then a few minutes after that we did get the approval. I was on a secure videoconference when the army leadership conveyed to me. That the secretary of defense had authorized the employment of the guard at the capital. So my timeline has seventeen o eight five eight pm. His win Is when we wrote down that we had approved and rebels about eight people in the office with me when i got that guardsmen. Were ready you said right medial earlier in the bottom one hundred and fifty five so you could send one hundred and fifty five much much earlier. What would the impact of sending those one hundred and fifty five right around that two o'clock timeframe based on my experience with the summer i have nineteen years. I have thirty nine years in the national guard. I was in a florida guard hurricane. I've been involved in civil disturbances. So i believe that number could have made a difference. We could help extend the perimeter and help push back. The crowd sanborn ms smith's lova last week we heard from former law enforcement officials who stated that a lack of intelligence reporting was the the main reason for capital police Not being fully prepared for the january six attack my question to both of you. Yes or no. Would you agree that. The intelligence community failed to sufficiently identify the threat and warned the capitol police of a plot to breach the capital that apply that was planned in public and announced in advance in a number of open sources. I think this is. i'll start. I wouldn't necessarily categorize it. That way. Sir but i will tell you. I think you've heard say before. There's not an agent that wouldn't want more tools in their toolbox. There's not an analyst. That wouldn't want more intelligence and i think i just paint a quick picture for you. The challenges faced are the immense amount of rhetoric out there. And what we're trying to separate is aspirational from intent and combine the in in order to get to that intent. We're really thinking about private. Communications and oftentimes encryption. Not so would say that. What we are faced with is the challenge of the amount of data and then really trying to find because of the volume and because of private communications intent that would have given us the intelligence picture potentially to shed light on what some of the plans and intentions indicators in mornings as our military folks might say and so as we've heard from chief son last week he had been denied by the sergeant at arms. And that's a subject for of last week but the subject for today is even all that and we know we would have been in much better shape if they'd been called ahead and if he'd had authority but now we're to the day and it is to twenty two and you are on the phone with them and you're asking for this authorization which you felt. It was unusual to get. Is that right. Unusual delay was unusual and so we were already in support of the metropolitan police department and when the metropolitan police department left the traffic control. Points what i wanted to do was take those guardsmen and moved into the capital immediately. Be in my logic was we were still in direct support. We would have been supported the metropolitan police department who supporting the united states capitol police at that point so i just keep imagining the scene. The whole country. The whole world is seeing this on tv. You've got the police line breached at this moment. You have you have smashed windows. You have insurrectionist going through the police lines. You are on the phone. Everyone is seeing this on tv. And they're not immediately approving your request and in your recent testimony. You just said. Hey i could have gotten them on those buses and ready to go. Is that correct correct center. And as you just testified in response to senator peters you believe that would have made a difference to have them at the perimeter and his sooner point and i know that the people in charge of capital security felt the same. And so you could have had them there earlier hours earlier if it had been approved and then you had them on the bus and so they were actually sitting on the bus for a short period of time right waiting because you thought well. They've just got to honor the request. Is that your head was working so you actually put them on the bus so they were ready to go. But you couldn't let the buses go just sooner to. I just came to the conclusion that that eventually. I'm going to get approval. And i didn't want an eye at that point seconds matter minutes matter and i needed to be ready to get them there as quick. Quickest possible already had district of columbia national guard military police vehicle in front of the bus to help Get through any traffic lights We were there in eighteen minutes. I i ride seventeen twenty out. They were sworn in soon as they got there and they made a difference according to the capitol police now according to a lot of us. And i just keep thinking of the hours that went by and The people who were injured and the officers whose lives were changed forever. A lot has been reported about the quick response force that was waiting at andrews airforce base to be deployed to dc. Just in case now that force was set up as additional troops to support the guards. Traffic control mission is needed. Is that right. Yes ma'am and the quick response force could be deployed to the capital immediately. Once the violence began because they were not fitted for riot control. Is that right. No ma'am they were outfitted. So the quick reaction force was district of columbia air national guard. security forces squadron. Most of those guardsmen are law enforcement officers and their civilian positions. Got it so so they were. They were ready to go. And they were outfitted with all the equipment that they needed and they were out at at andrews and i just took it upon myself to move them would permission just moved them to the armory so they would be. Closer is well mr salacious saying on. Could you explain a why are they would say such a thing. I know you were not on the call. And you're the one that they sent here on behalf the defense department but you were not on the call and so. Do you have any idea why. This delay occurred When as a center peters has wall pointed out it didn't occur another incidences but center as you point out. I was not on the calls. Any of the calls. We now that. That's why i spent my time talking to someone who was however senator preparation for the hearing. I have had the opportunity to talk to general walker. I've had the opportunity to talk to general pilot and other officers on the army step of also had the opportunity. Talk to secretary mccarthy and preparation for the hearing so that i could understand the details of okay so just if you could answer questions. There's so many my colleagues waiting. Why this happened joe. Pyatt told me yesterday that he didn't say anything about optics may be he meant. He didn't use the word optics. Or are you saying that general walker who just testified that they were concerned about. This is wrong or that. General told me yesterday senator but he did not use the word optics. I think that what. I'll let general walker answer this but i think what he's talking about is the general concern about was that they were more concerned about how this would appear in. It was in their best advice. And i guess what bears out. His testimony is that they did not send the national guard there for hours. They didn't give the authorization for him as he waited with. His troops to go to the capital said are in and furnace to the committee. General pilot is not a decision maker. The only decision makers on the sixth of january or the secretary of defense and the secretary of the army ryan mccarthy. It was a chain of command from the secretary of defense. The secretary mccarthy to general walker that was chain of command. There's lots of staff there is involved in obviously having discussions but to be clear on that day. That was the chain of command. I also thought it was odd. And i think you said was unusual and very prescriptive that the january fifth letter required the secretary of the army to approve. The movement of deployed guardsmen from one traffic. Control points to another. Did you find that unusual. Nineteen years i never would. I never had that before happened. So on that day the metropolitan police as they would any other day requested that a traffic control point move one block. One block over traffic was no traffic was where they were when the the traffic control point to move one block. I had to get permission. Told him i'll get back to you. I contacted lieutenant general. Piat who contacted to the community army with. I had to explain where that can. Traffic control point was a relationship to the capital. And only then that permission to move the the three national guardsmen supporting metropol three unarmed national guardsmen. Who are helping with traffic control. In parts of that met police can do other things and they were not permitted to move a block away without getting permission from secretary of the army set through desk correct. And then on your testimony. You also talk about Riot gear that january fourth memorandum from acting secretary miller to the army secretary required the personal approval of the secretary of defense for the national guard to be issued riot gears at correct. That's correct but but the secretary army toby to go ahead and put it in a vehicles your credit for that. Yeah you said that earlier you gave him credit for at least a habit. There was accessible. Yes it's still. You couldn't prepare for civil disturbance without getting permission from the secretary of the army and the secretary of defense is drew normally for a safety and force protection matter. Commander would would be able to authorize is guardsmen to protect themselves with with helmet and an protective equipment. Well as i said earlier. I'm disappointed we don't have someone from dod there. I think you're being put in a position. Mr salafists but mistress house. I have to ask you. Why did the department defense imposed these restrictions on general walker's control the national guard january six. I apologize you forget it. senator Secretary miller wanted to make the decisions of how the national guard was going to be employed on that day. As you recall senator the spring events. It was a number of things that happen during those events. That secretary miller as the acting secretary. Yeah well clearly. Clearly he wanted to. The question is why. And how unusual. Don't you think that's unusual based on your experience at dod senator. There was a lot of things that happened in the spring. The dog that you guys for Sir if i if i could senator civil disturbance operations that authority rests with the secretary of defense so if if somebody is going to make a decision about employing military members against us citizens in a civil disturbance operation. Let's let's talk about the quick reaction force in again. You've got a lot of experience with teachers background. We appreciate your being here again. You weren't making your decisions day Kind of push you forward. Here is the person to answer questions. But based on your discussions with with individuals a but isn't the purpose of a quick reaction force to quickly react to unfolding situations senator. It it is it is it. Isn't requiring a pre semitic concept of operations antithetical to the idea of labeling quick reaction against i call our attention to the quick reaction force that day was designed to respond to the traffic control points in the metro stations. We did not have a quick reaction force to respond to the events that unfolded on the capital. Well i don't know that that's true. General awkward did not have a quick reaction force. Part of the dc police. I think you did. You had police officers who were also guardsmen. Who were involved in your quick reaction force correct. I did and wouldn't they have been appropriate to respond to attack on the capital. In my opinion they would. I look again i. I wish we had the people who are making the decision of missiles. I don't wanna put you in this position. But you're all we've got through talk into. Dod today in your opinion did the attack on the capital constitute a last resort last resort. You mean an immediate response in the remember in the in the letter. It's only as a last resort. You think last resort situation occurred when there was an attack on the capital. The there were certainly a last resort situation that occurs. So why did it take the department defense. So long to authorize the use of the national guard in particular the use of the of the of the cue afar center. I can rela- what i've obtained from my discussions with personnel. That were involved day. And if if you'd like go through the time on your just answered. The question based on why The decision makers in this case secretary mccarthy secretary mccarthy if we go through the time line clearly at two twenty two has been mentioned today Secretary mccarthy at at two thirty as pointed out my oral statement went down in source. Secretary miller at two thirty at two at three or four. Second terry miller made the decision to mobilize the entire national guard. That meant that he was calling in. All the national guard members that were assigned to the dc national gordon at three forty three. Oh for that. Decision was made between that period of time between three. Oh four and four. Ten basically secretary mccarthy had asked for he wanted to understand because of the dynamics on on the capitol lawn with the explosives that Obviously shots have been fired. He wanted to understand the employment of how the national board was going to be sent to the capital. What their missions. We're gonna be where they're going to be clearing buildings. Would they be doing perimeter security. How would they be equipped. He wanted understand how they were going to be armed because obviously shots had been fired. He was asking a lot of questions to understand exactly how they were going to be pull employed here at the capitol and how many national guard members needed to be employed on the capital with all due. Respect them in my time is coming to an end you know three hours and nineteen minutes three hours and nineteen minutes from the first call plea really with his voice cracking with emotion as a major general said. You have chief of police son saying help. We need help now. Three hours in one thousand nine hundred and that can't happen again. You agree with that senator. I do thank you very good. Ranking member blunt. Thank you chairwoman Journal walker if the restrictions on your authorities hadn't been put in place by dod. What would you have done when chief. Son col jewett one forty nine on january six with an urgent request for national guard. Assistance would have immediately pulled. All the guardsmen. That were supporting metropolitan police department. They had to gear in vehicles. I would have had a symbol in the armory and then get on buses and go straight to the armory and report to the the most ranking capital. Police officer they saw and take direction and i just let me add this. So one of my lieutenant colonels on his own initiative went to the capital anticipating that we were going to be called so he would have been there and he met with deputy chief carol of the metropolitan police department who asked him. Where is the national guard combat. Here and this colonel hit will. I'm sure they're coming. And i'm here to scout out where they're going to be when they get here. So that was the plan. I would sent them there immediately. As soon as i hung up my next call would have been to my subordinate commanders. Get every single guardsmen in this building and everybody. That's helping the metropolitan police remission them to the capital without delay mr salicis on the january fifth letter that that's described. As secretary mccarthy re-lane new restrictions from the acting secretary of defense miller christopher miller would would that be accurate. Would those be new instructions. And do you agree that General walker had more flexibility before those instructions than he did after. I think that's a yes or no. Do you agree. He had more flexibility before those instructions than he did after. That would be one question and to would it. Be fair to say those were new instructions or not senator General walker in fairness an can't respond to a civil defence of civil disturbance operation without the authority of the secretary of defense. So absent these memos general walker would have had to get approval to respond to the capital through the secretary of defense. Well let's talk about that approval process. I think you said a minute. Ago to senator portman. If you'd like to go through the timeline. I assume you're talking about the department of defense time line that i have in front of me. You mentioned a fifteen zero four as one of your reference points at fifteen nineteen or three nineteen That timeline says secretary of the army. Phone call with senator schumer and speaker pelosi about the nature of mayor. Bowser request Secretary of the army explains acting secretary of defense already approved full d. c. n. g. Full dc national guard mobilization. Would that be right as of three. Nineteen that would be accurate. But if i could clarify what mobilization let me let me go one step further. I'll let you do that at fifteen. Twenty six three twenty six secretary of the army phone call with mayor bowser and metropolitan police. Chief relase it. There is no denial of their request and conveys assistant secretary or acting secretary defense approval of the activation of bull national guard. So on your time. Line within seven minutes one is mobilization. The other is activation of go ahead and explain what those things mean. so senator. The words being used interchangeably. What what secretary miller did at fifty four on six january was authorized the mobilization our activation of the national guard the dc national guard all that does provide for the national guard to be called in from wherever their homes are the come to the armory. That's what the mobilization activation order was. I wonder if that's what secretary I wonder if that's what senator schumer and speaker pelosi thought it meant. You can't answer that. Only they could. And i also wonder if that's what mayor bowser thought it meant when they were told at three nineteen and three twenty six that the guard had been mobilized in the guard was being activated. I don't expect you to be able to answer what they thought. I know i would have assumed that meant. The guard was on the way. Unless i was specifically told well they're mobilized but they really won't be there until we make a decision Hours later at four thirty two the acting secretary of defense provides verbal authorization to remission dc national guard to conduct perimeter and clearance operations. So that's four thirty two. That's an hour and ten or so minutes later. Is that the moment when the guard was told they could move forward. Yes center is do agree with that general walker. no sir. i didn't get approval until a little bit. After five. And i got that from the secretary army was related to me and never talk to secretary. Defense miller and i didn't talk to the secretary of the army. Army senior leaders told me at about seventeen zero eight five eight pm that the secretary of defense has authorized our approval to support the capital. The center if i if i couldn't furnace the general walker to. That's when the secretary of defense made the decision at four thirty two as jenna walker has pointed out. 'cause i've seen all the time lines. He was not told that five. Oh wait that's what. How's how's that possible mr salazar. Do you think that the decision in the moment we ran was made at four thirty two and the person that had to be old was told for more than half an hour after the decision was made senator. I think that's that's an issue. There was decisions that were being made. There was communications that needed to take place in the actions that had to be taken. All of that was happening at various times by different individuals. And i think that part of the challenge is that some of the delayed communications probably put some of the challenges that we had. I would think so if you have to have the communication before john walker and the national guard can take the action and the communication doesn't require for doesn't occur for over half an hour that's that's a significant problem for the future. If we don't figure out how the decision the the communication and the action all happen as nearly to the same time as they possibly can jerem. Thank you very much senator hasson. Well thank you very much Cheer chairwoman club ajar and chair. Peters and our ranking members blunt and portman afford this hearing and i wanna thank all of our witnesses for being here today and i wanna thank you all for your service to our country. I wanna start with a question form smyslov. oh please. It's about a topic that i asked about last week. The secretary of homeland security has the authority to designate events with national significance as national special security events and these designated events receive expanded federal support for events. Security factors used to determine national special. Security event designations include the attendance of officials as well as the size and significance of the event in our here last week the former officials in charge of security here at the capitol testified that. Dhs did not reach out to us. Capital officials about designating january six joint session of congress as a national special security event. So ms ms maslova. To your knowledge did any department of homeland. Security officials ever consider or recommend designating the january six joint session of congress as the national special security event. All right thank you senator No to knowledge no one at the department of homeland security did consider designating january six as an sc to my knowledge. No-one responsible for protecting the capital asked for such a designation right. But but when when we're talking about an as an s e we you don't need a request from dot capital clouds could have could have initiated it. So what is the department's current policy and process for designating nationals special security events and were there any procedural issues blocking such designation in spite of the growing evidence of intelligence available to federal security officials prior to the event. I'm sorry senator. I running currently the office of intelligence and analysis for d. h. s. have a small role in the nfc process. But i am not qualified to speak about the whole process. It's fairly complicated. I'm happy to have secret service. Reach out to your ma'am. If you'd like me and follow up. I thought well. I think it's really important for us to understand what the processes are we had as has been pointed out the vice president. The vice president elect all members of congress in one location at an event where there was clear intelligence that might turn violent and there appears to have been no Communication or effort by dhs to designate. This in a way that would have had to security that we're now standing about stood up ahead of time and ineffective ways so for them to follow up with you on that. I want to turn to miss samborn now. According to a recent report the fbi currently charged two hundred and fifty seven people associated with the events on january. Six of the individuals charged to date in relation to the attacks january six. How many were already under investigation by the bureau after the specific number but i can only recall from my memory one of the individuals that was under investigation prior and was that because the fbi is limited in its tools or capacity to monitor charter arrest these individuals prior to january six. It was as a manpower issue. I've just trying to understand understanding looking back now. What might have made a difference in charging in being able to move against some of those individuals. Sooner yeah i think that's a great question. I think it's twofold. So it's the complexity of trying to gather the right intelligence that helps us predict indicators and warnings spoke earlier about while there's a volume out there of rhetoric trying to figure out that intent is very challenging for us in the intel community. Because it happens on private calms and encryption. So that's one aspect and then the other aspect is of the people that we were investigating so predicated investigators investigations. We don't necessarily have the ability to mitigate the threat. They might pose by travel. If we don't have a charge and so i think you're tracking that. We were aware of some of our subjects that intended to come here. We took over action by going and talking them and trying to get them to not come and that worked in the majority of cases thank you. I'd look forward to following up with the fbi more about that. I also have another question for you about the. Fbi's information sharing practices on january fifth. The fbi norfolk field office issued a report that some extremists were preparing to travel to washington and commit acts of violence. Report eventually made it to a. Us capitol police analyst. But it didn't make to the former capital police chief mr sund so i think it's important for us to understand whether this was a failure in information sharing policy or practice. What's the standard policy for disseminating reports like that. Yes ma'am that's great question. Just like to say that that part of the reason we were able to get that intelligence report from the norfolk offices because we made it at a national collection priority for off fifty six field offices to collect whatever they could on the joint session as well as inauguration and so when they collected that information they did follow our normal process. And i think we heard yesterday from the director and went above and beyond that process so they documented it. Quickly your within the situational information report and they disseminated at three different ways in writing via email verbally and then also put it in what we call the leap portal which is available to all state and local partners across the united states. So had you been able to head. This all been pre approved by the secretary of defense and i mindful of the considerations of having military involved in civil disturbances. I think that's part of the issue. Some of the blowback that occurred with the spring instances. How quickly could have you gotten how many people to the capital twenty minutes. How many people. One hundred fifty. I want to just read a couple excerpts. This is the title. Provocateurs turn. Unsuspecting marches into an invading mob. And again these provocateurs are primarily white. Supremacist groups then allowed bellowing. Shot from behind quote forward. Do not retreat forward then two other men standing across from one another on the high granite curbs on either side of the footpath bell variations of forward. Do not dare retreat. Some may direct. I contacted people in point directly at them. As if trying to psych them into submitting third man standing on a chair also shouting forward reached reached down and grabbed me by the shoulder. Embarked don't retreat. Get back up there. It wasn't expression of enthusiasm or solidarity. Sound like a military order from a wild kid. This guy was probably his fifties. He looked furious with me not not seem to wear. The capital was physically under attack. The tear gas caused pandemonium. But there are still stampede and people helped create or widened pass to others to leave the area then from the north column of uniformed agile. Younger men walked briskly single file toward the inaugural san. They came from the came within two fee to me. Their camouflage uniforms were clean. Need with pattern. I couldn't identify. These were the disciplined uniformed column of taxes. I had seen there. Were a good three dozen of them. Moving in a single snake like formation. They were organized. They would discipline their paired. We're taking the capital the first or second announced. You're going to get arrested. Someone called sanborn. Is that kind of tie into with what. You're uncovering investigate. Exactly what happened in campbell. That day with you had these armed militia groups that had conspired organized to be there maybe dozens. We don't know how many but the they were organized knew how to use the mob to storm the capital. Is that kind of what you're seeing. We definitely so far seeing a mixture that we're seeing people that got caught up in the moment got caught up in the sort of the energy etc and made their way into the capital. Those are probably the ones that you're seeing the charges simply of trespassing. And then we're definitely seeing that portion that you're pointing out which is small groups and cells now being charged with conspiracy that coalesced either on site or even days or weeks prior and had sort of an intent that day and they to probably caught up in the energy secretary. Selena's if i understood your earlier comment youth thought. The quick reaction team was only for reinforcing assistance to those members of the national guard. Providing traffic control did. I hear your comment correctly. Senator you thank thank you a major general walker. I believe that. If i heard your comments crackly that quick reaction team was there to respond as needed including protection. The capital is is that correct a senator. So they were actually to provide support to the guardsmen out there. What i would wanted to do was remission them and get them to the capital immediately as a quick reaction force. I see so. They weren't necessarily planned to help. Protect the capital but you would reassign them to that in that type of emergency yesser. Okay thank you that clarification. I was really struck by the complexity of the chain of command. For trying. To get a decision for response it starts with the capitol police board which goes to the chief of the capitol police stevens son who goes to the commanding general of the dc national guard who goes secretary army who then consults with with the people within department of army about whether it's appropriate which then goes secretary defense than consults. Christopher miller decide study that who then goes an order back to the commanding general of the dc national guard this six step process Seems totally unsuited to the situation. A responding quickly to an emergency and just wanted to ask you a commander walker. If if i'm reading this chain of command correctly and if you share the view that this is way too complex for a moment when you need to respond quickly so senator. It's a long standing process but it it can work in minutes so for example. Don't the first week of june. The secretary of the army was with me. I watched him call the secretary of defense and consult with the attorney general and respond back to me with a approval within minutes so so it's an elaborate process of but it doesn't always have to be. When in extremists circumstances we can get it done over the phone. If if i understand right. It's normally an elaborate process done in advance and in fact. The information came to you on january. First you got back a response on january fifth so this was before january six but it had this vision that this restriction that. I think you've testified to was unusual that required re-consultation on january six in a fashion. That deeply inhibited the ability to move quickly. That that's right. senator. Okay thank you. I wanted to turn to under secretary. Smith slova and you've been with the department for for how long as seventeen years sir for seventeen years and i think you were the deputy undersecretary on january six. Is that correct. yes okay. Well i was struck by different reports that came from officials saying that there was a a mood within the department and i'll just quote one formal official reports quote. Nobody wanted to write a formal intelligence report about this. In part of the fear that such a report would be very poorly received by the maga- folks within dhs and to follow this up. Brian murphy former head of d h s and. I don't know we also the deputy to him as well. I was one of his deputies. Yes sir i. He noted that officials had to stay away from the threat of white nationalism. That chad wolf. Ken cuccinelli also had asked him to modify intel assessments to ensure that they matched up with public comments. By president trump to downplay downplay the threat posed by white supremacists in your time at d. h. s. It's very important. That intelligence is unaffected by politics. It's like the route information. Did you get a sense that there was a troubling cloud as reported in various sources including from the former head of dhs that there was this troubling cloud of political influence over the quality or they kind of determination of how intelligence was prevented presented to to officials. I can say the reports did not change. We did not change our assessments based on any political pressure or interference. We did publish the homeland threat. Assessment is publicly available document the does state white supremacist are the most persistent and legal threat and lethal threat to the homeland. So did you ever feel any pressure or receive any encouragement even kind of an lesson. Formal way. I'm not talking about a written document that you needed to be very careful about clarifying threat. Posed by white supremacists. I did not personally received that. And do you consider brian. Murphy's a report that that type of pressure was applied to be accurate or inaccurate. He has a his whistle blower complaint and it is still being due to kate it now. I understand but i'm asking you were right there in the leadership. You never got a sense that there was any type of political influence like he reported regarding encouragement to down. I did not personally have that. Implants pushed on me. Sir thank you so have suggested that the reason that there were formal intelligence assessments regarding earlier events including the protests in portland but not Such a detailed presentation related to january six was because of this pressure to downplay to some degree. The threat posed by white extremists. I would like to point out. That the two instances very different our support during some of the civil unrest in the protests specifically in portland were at the direct request of our own. Dhs federal law enforcement partners and in that capacity we were reacting to a pattern of violence that had shown itself for several weeks are open source. Team did an excellent job. In many instances of providing specific information that kept those officers save. They were reporting things like bricks may be used as a weapon. Another day might be bug spray. Combined with leaf blowers are lasers are work. By contrast leading up to the election and january six is quite different. It's a different kind of an environment. There's not that pattern of violence. It is a different kind of assessment. So i do suggest that it's it's impossible to compare the two. Thank you for your testimony. Thank thank you madam chair. mr chairman. Thank you senator the Chair recognizes senator cinema for your questions. I'll thank you Mr sharon thank you to our witnesses for being here today. During last week's hearing we heard about coordinated security planning efforts between law enforcement and federal partners for january six including areas where it could be improved as part of this conversation. The committee's heard about intelligent shared by the fbi. Field office in norfolk virginia. On january fifth warning of extremists preparing to travel for war we also heard from the former chief of. Us capitol police that he never saw this report and on january six he knew of no intelligence suggesting there would be a coordinated violent attack on the us capital. The head of fbi's field office has previously said publicly that the bureau did not have intelligence suggesting the rallied turned violent prior to the january fifth report however on january eighth a podcast from the new york times outlined activity across multiple social media platforms showing coordination between groups ahead of the january six attack. The podcast highlighted social media conversations about coordinating travel bringing weapons and using language like occupy the capital and the revolution will come to washington. So my first question is permit. Sanborn was the fbi aware of these specific conversations on social media to my knowledge. No ma'am i would just sort of articulate why that is so under our authorities because being mindful of the first amendment and our dual headed mission to uphold the constitution we cannot collect first amendment protected activities without sort of the next step which is the intent and so we'd have to have an already predicated investigation that allowed us access to those calms or a lead or a tip or report from a community citizen or fellow law enforcement partner for us to gather that information so the fbi does not monitor publicly available social media conversations. Crack ma'am. it's not within our authorities. So my next question is for ms samborn and then missiles lova to the preparations for january. Sixth rally followed the typical process for sharing information among law enforcement entities when confronted by this type of an event with a high potential for violence. And were there. Additional processes implemented to consider that as senator claude sharp pointed out. This was an event congress in session and the vice president and vice president elect all gathered in one place. Yes ma'am so a couple of things. We did different than normal operations is we sent out and made this a national priority for all of our fifty six field offices to actively go out and ask sources collect information on any threats posed to the national capital region. Not only for the six. But for the inauguration that tasking is what led to the potential collection in the norfolk field office. We also stepped. We took the is different than our normal. Every day of business is both washington field. Office and headquarters stood up command post so we activated our nc three which is a multi agency task force. That was twenty. Four seven inside the hoover building inside siamak in washington field. Mirrored that in their field office. And ma'am yes. Yes ma'am and d h s so. Any had been on a heightened period of alert after before the election and then after the election we also participated in the command posts and the washington field the washington fusion center. In retrospect we may have been better off if we had considered sending out some kind of terrorism bolton but we did not do that before january sex so Russian for both of you. The fbi field offices did have intelligence outlining threat to congress. We know the conversations were happening on publicly available social media. Nchs was tracking the travel of some of these suspected radicals. So given all of these pieces. What in your opinion broke down in. What got in the way of law enforcement properly planning to meet these publicly articulated threats. I'll start I think exactly the processes we had in place we followed and i think that's the good news. I think as you heard the director yesterday. And i would echo anytime. There's an intact we in the fbi. Want about one thousand and we want to not ever have this happen again and so we're asking ourselves exactly the questions that you're asking. Is there a place that we could have collected more. Is there something that we could have done. And so that is exactly what we're looking back at. I think that the information we had we worked quickly to try to get that out in reporting and share it in multiple ways verbally email putting it in portals etc but one hundred percent. You can rest assured we're asking ourselves the same is we want to continue to improve and get better. And ma'am we also are completely dissatisfied. With the result of our efforts leading up to january six. we are reexamining. How we distribute our information how we coordinate with our partners. We thought that it was sufficient and clearly it was not. We are also working much more focused and playing more resources to better understanding this particular threat we also are looking at how we can better understand social media to get those tips and maybe get better insight into what this episode is doing. This is a very difficult threat for us. In the intelligence community to understand it is role require more partnerships with non traditional partners are with our standard state and local partners. And you will see that we will reinforce are already good partnership with the fbi. My question for each should you two questions actually. One does the perpetuation of disinformation about the twenty twenty election. Make your job harder. And how second. What kind of message does the january six insurrection. Send to other domestic violent extremists and our foreign adversaries is well start. I think i'd start with pinpointing this specific thing that drives somebody to mobilization is very very very difficult and it's probably more complex in the domestic violent extremist space than any other of the terrorism threats. We face and why that is is what we found in. Our investigations is domestic violent extremist. Not only are potentially doing what. They're doing an insular manner. But it's a combination of an ideology that they have and what makes it different is a very unique personalized grievance and when things combine that appears to be what pushes them to mobilization and so for every single individual. We're trying to find that but it's incredibly hard and it relies a lot on their ability post disruption to explain that process to that and so that's something we're trying very hard to get to the bottom of on each of these cases and sir we did more in our national terrorism advisory system bulletin that we assess perceived grievances that are fueled by false narratives could continue to mobilize white people to commit violence so to that extent yes. False narratives are difficult. Difficult center department of defense does not do domestic intelligence on us citizens but there's no tolerance for extremists in the ranks of defense the department secretary austin within the first few weeks of taking over as the secretary order to stand in the defense department one day. Stand down to examine extremism. Educate people they make sure that we're doing everything we can. Route that of senator spare for a second. Because i want to make a get some clarity here now. I know these issues were complex. Your work is tremendously complex and challenging. But the answer to the first question. Based on what i hear you tell me if you disagree. Is the question being. Does this make your job harder. The answer would be so far. Yes yes yes. They're correct it's two fold right. It's volume anymore. Volume makes it harder and the more variety of things that inspire people definitely makes pinpointing it to a specific one challenging and so variety of inspiration combined with amount of rhetoric out. There definitely are two things that add limited time left. I wanna make sure we address the second question. Which is what message. Do you believe this is sending to other domestic violent extremist let alone for an adversaries we do. We do us. That the breach on the capital could inspire others to act. If that's what you're asking are angry anytime. An adversary is successful others. Pay attention and so. We're worried that this would be an inspiration agree with it. Agrees wilson. thank you thank you. Thank you senator just for for planning purposes before the next member from my committee are witnesses. You've been here a long time. our plan is give you a little in the future here the near future a chance to stretch a little bit. I'm going to recognize one more center from my committee. Chairwoman of global trial will recognize from her committee. That will give give you a five minute break. So with that. senator rosen. You're recognized for your questions. Appreciate new and all the other senators up on the rules committee for bringing together. This joint urine is really important in Everyone for being here. You know in. October twenty twenty. Dhs war that Racially and ethnically motivated violent. Extremists specifically white supremacist. Extremists will remain the most persistent and lethal rat in the homeland unquote and quote again. Violent actors. Mike target events related to the post election period on wow according to former. Dhs assistant secretary for counterterrorism and prevention. The office talented now. Assist i on a was aware of potential for violence in january six and i quote again but a reasons of fear didn't want to formalize reports. We know senator merkley asked you this question ready but in fact the day before the attacks i sent a national summary to law enforcement partner stating that there was nothing significant to report nothing significant before and so the hss white supremacists to be the most. We've rectum americans and if i was aware domestic violent extremist mobilizing Grew six in. Why didn't the department issued a formal intelligence worry that violence for enron. Ask this of slow. Slow this slow. Yes yes ma'am i. We have heard of that report that we sent supposedly son out nothing significant to report and we cannot locate that so i have no idea where that notion came. Oh what if you can find or where we got we. We've looked ma'am for for a while. So we we don't. We don't have a copy of that report. This would be an official report sent out. It is possible. Ma'am what it came from. Was maybe a phone call or something else where recent. We had nothing additional to report. We did view the work that we had done. Prior to january six as being sufficiently specific in warning of the possible threat some of the reports we did distribute you just quoted from yourself so it was our belief that those warnings were enough. Obviously they were not. We are working very hard now to do two things one get better specificity and insight into this particular threat and then secondly understand better our how our customers receive our products read our products. Who gets our products. It is unclear to us why they were not received an better prepared for what about on that did a share any intelligence products with national fusion centers. Remain information about possible violence on january six and is capital. Police are the dc area. Uson santa yes we talked specifically to the capitol police in early december made sure that they were in receipt of all of our products and they received again the wine. We put out just a week before the attack that we co authored with fbi national counterterrorism center. We know that oliver products do go to the national network of fusion centers and we in fact participated in a phone call that was sponsored by the national network of fusion centers. The day before on january fifth where we also reiterated our concerns that we were in a heightened threat environment that this particular adversary could mobilize quickly in the most likely small cells lone offenders. They would most likely come armed. And they could were interested attacking specifically government buildings on large gatherings. I appreciate that but it seems like we weren't exactly ready so moving forward. I know you're alluded that you're gonna try to figure out where your product goes and talks about it. But how are you going to the civically. Elevate i need assessment at white supremacists homeland Laudi detailed and informed intelligence actually reaches our communities including our local or some ahead of possible attacks of that we can prevent any lost life on certainly or other huge. Yes ma'am and the department is committed to doing that. Our secretary is very committed to coming up with the whole of d. h. s approach to better combat domestic terrorism. We are working across the department to understand how to better articulate the threat and deliver the threat and how to mitigate it with our state and local partners in it you. I wanna move on. Because the day before the insurrection. The fbi issues in internal warning that extremist planned to take art and violence january. Six last week. I asked metro picky about the intelligence failures leading up to the attack acting chief of police monte told me the fbi email and pd and alert bulletin warning about potential violence at seven pm. The night before the attack. Mr contrel again. I'm going to quote here. I would certainly think that something violent as insurrection at the capitol when wawrinka phone call or something but yesterday the i direct ratio that his information had been provided local law where smith multiple times and in multiple orders. So miss sanborn. It sounds like either. Mr county director. Ray was mistaken. So can you robbery your race statement and indeed. The warning was only set in writing widened. The fbi little bit further. Why did not alert local law enforcement about the possible. A violent insurrection in a manner. Consistent ravages of rats on our yes. Ma'am i appreciate the question. I think i'll start with the information. We received just to correctly characterize what was was information off the internet unattributable to a specific person that being said the content and the suggestion of what may or may not happen was concerning enough that based on our prioritizing this is a collection priority for our fifty six field offices they quickly wrote that up and within the hour had that information to the washington field office. They wrote it up in a document specifically for dissemination to state and local partners. But really they tried to build on unsuspended that together. They wanted to make sure that we just didn't rely on the dissemination of a product that we also followed up with an email that went out in an email to all task force officers on the washington. Jt gts taskforce and there's numerous of those from the national capital region that received that email still on top of that they didn't want to rely on just the email and the written document in one of the command post briefings that they were doing back. Then every couple of hours they specifically stood up and talked about this to try to have a common operating picture of what this information was and then still to go a step further and not rely on just that and make sure that we broaden the visibility not just in the national capital region that would be open to that aperture to the whole country for our state and local partners. We posted that situation information. Report on what we call the leap portal. Which is available to all state and local partners. Why that's significant. It's it gives them awareness but it also gives them the opportunity to maybe even potentially add collection to what our piece that we got from the social media posting online recognizing constraints that are placed upon your in terms of collections and also acknowledging that this threat has been around for some time yet. The item is knowledge that it is an extraordinary major severe threat. What have you been able to do. Engaging in force intelligence and independent research communities better identify these. Dvd's i know in the run-up to the janury. Six insurrection there was research done my harvard sale. John donovan universities. Megan squire as well as other researchers that pointed to the fact that these dvd's and they are affiliated groups oftentimes groups that are in conjunction with groups in europe. They were planning this effort. So how are you both the hsen fbi. Utilizing meets independent. Researchers open source activities. And making sure you've got a better angle recognizing look appropriate constraints. Can yes senator. Thank you for the question. We just last week matt as anti discuss contracting with some of those experts outside we are aware that we need to invest more in our understanding of domestic terror. We understand as well that it will require a different approach than a traditional intelligence community approach. We must use different sources to understand this threat. We are looking to get outside experts. Invest more in house we are secondly looking at howard to better understand the social media world so that we can better focus on where we might actually find specific and insightful information about what the adversary is thinking about. We are additionally working to partner more with our state and local colleagues who we know have a different perspective this threat and have more information and some cases than we do and we are also again partnering more across the department and with our federal partners increasing our relationships with other. Thank you senator. Nice to see you again as well. I'd say we're trying to put it in three buckets really for you. Increasing our private sector outreaches one hundred percent. I have a section just inside my division. that does nothing but partner engagement. We have found that the better we educate them on the threat. We're facing in painting a picture for them of what those threats we are. They're better able to pay attention. Collect refer information to us and that is helpful. And i think that's why when we talk about the fact that fifty percent of our tips and leads to our cases or predication for our cases. Come from that relationship and that education we're also same as my colleague said using the state and local partners so we leverage the fusion centers a lot and their ability and their expertise and the orange county fusion center in california a great example of leading sort of the analytics of social media and leveraging their expertise to predicate cases and they were actually behind the predication of the case. The base that we disrupted. And then last i would say challenging ourselves for better collection inside right trying to point our sources in our collection to be in the right places to collect the intelligence that we need. And that is what led to the norfolk. Sl are that is us pointing our collection in space. That gathered that information. If i look at the the report prior to january the sixth that are coming out from intelligence. I have a hard time looking at it and getting the context of how is this different than normal. So help me understand for those reports for someone who's reading these reports every day. How would they understand the context of what you're seeing what the folks are seeing on the ground. That's different than what they had seen three months before six months before year before. Yes sir that is. That is a great question and that is one that we are now saying. It was our view again. When i prepared for the hearing and i looked at all of the work that we had done specifically talking about the extremists that would be motivated by the dissatisfaction with the election results and also unhappy with some of the restrictions related to covid nineteen The reports are quite good. They are well written. They seem to summarize pretty succinctly. Look at them. And i'm proud of the team which is produced twice as many reports on domestic terrorism. This last year as they did the year before but to your point it might be hard to see that trend over time in in the noise so looking backwards from now. What didn't happen right. we are examining. Should there be different types of reports. Should we use some of the tools that vhs has such as the national terrorism advisory system. We have restarted the counterterrorism advisory board which was occurring monthly under the previous administration. It had fallen offer a variety of reasons the last few years. We've restarted that secretary. My orcas is challenging us all to do a better job when it comes to combating terrorism domestic terrorism. So i guess that's a long way of saying we are taking at are the reports that we have done we will be engaging very directly with all of our stakeholders asking them what we could do better asking them how they might better receive the information. Should we put it in a different format. Is there some way. We should remind them that. This is an alert and it is hard candidly with the volume of information that we oversee daily. Wanna ask a question for the folks that were actually on traffic duty in such that. We're helping out that day and standing side-by-side with metro police to help them. Were those folks armed with less lethal implements to be able to help in case there was a riot situation or an unruly crowd. Could they have engaged from where they were less than lethal force so they weren't equipped with less than lethal but they were equipped with force protection. Helmets shin guards of body protection. Were they wearing those. Were those vehicles they were in the vehicles they were in the vehicles and those reminders. They were those were military vehicles day. They were to be unmarked vehicles. That rather government vehicles that accurate vehicles got it and then there was no overhead for your folks That were out that day. My understanding is there was a request from the mayor to not have military vehicles that did not have helicopters up in the air that day and support. Would that have typically been something that you would have asked for in the past to be able to have some kind of overhead for day like that. No so we would not have needed helicopters or any kind of air support for for michigan like that just simple traffic control and a quick reaction force was at was available to support them if they needed it. But they are physically. How far away is starting minutes. I don't have to say where where they were exactly about. Twenty five about twenty five minutes away so quick reaction force was twenty five minutes away even if they were it was go when you just bear respondents twenty five minutes on a good traffic situation. Be able to get their barring. What's happening with the crowd. Will we would have had a police escort. So the district of columbia has military police and security forces both have marked police vehicles with the emergency equipment lights sirens and just to clarify. That's forty individuals that clue quick reaction force. I guess the question is was. The delay caused your judgment for being on the areas. Phone calls by anything remotely resembling politics and a desire not to interfere with this particular group or was it because of the i think the word blowback has been used of the concerns about of what had happened in the summer and the criticism that the guard at taken a force actions at lafayette square in other parts of the protests of the summer. When do you think was going on here. In terms of why this matter took so long to to respond to so senator king. I think it was a combination of both in my judgment. It was two factors. So i had to benefiting comfort of having the secretary of the army co located with me during the summer so he was right next to me for pretty much that entire week. The first week of june and i was in constant communication with him. I had his His phone number he had mine. We communicated regularly. I didn't have that benefit of for june's for january six so so there was some concern. I don't think it was so much of what the district of columbia national guard and guard nation did for i think it was more The word that i was i kept hearing was the optics of it and it was concerned that it could inflame the the protesters so uniform presence of god mun. Us army us air force. Uniforms could inflame the protesters that was a concern as well. That was a thought by by army senior leaders and an optics that you mentioned. That's sort of in. This context become a bit of a jar. Turn but what. They were really worried about in. My understanding is the visuals of armed troops and military vehicles and barriers surrounding the united states capitol. Ironically that's what we ended up with but is that. What is that the concern that you that you discern those conversations with senator chuck. Nobody was talking about being armed on january. Six we were talking about physical presence. Civil disturbance equipped guardsmen to form a line with the united states capitol police and the metropolitan police to restore order and prevent the capital From being breached. But there's no question that the day before or the days before the city made it clear that they did not want the national guard the capital's that accurate nocera. The city doesn't have standing at the capital so the city. The mayor's request in the director of homeland security doctorate ryukus request did not talk about the capital at all. Okay so the request from the city was was directed toward the traffic. Stop traffic control and those kinds of things away from the capital. Yes i i wanna get to the to the larger issue of of of being able to react and should we have a contingency plan. Should there be an after action assessment within the department of defense about those three hours and how to a empower of the local leadership. Such as yourself to react in an extraordinary emergency of so that you don't have to go through whatever it was that caused the delay whether it was communication or chain of command or consultation of clearly Again this could be an emergency in another city a totally different circumstances. Don't you think it would be prudent for us to have a contingency plans that but yes. There are expeditious so emergency authority of to act in an emergency to witness what occurred and to be able to respond. Yes i think going for. It's somebody should consider at the department. Offense should consider how the district of columbia national guard is able to respond in a much more expeditious manner. I think you asked me. You're breaking up a little bit yard. Do i agree that something similar to nine eleven commission is worth having in this instance and i think i think i would just say it this way. I've been involved in numerous after actions lessons. Learned and i can't think of a time where we haven't learned and improve so i think any time we can reflect back and learn its value added sheds light. We we miss railroading warning sites like very much. Thank you for the question. So i think. I'll start with the piece of information we received again was a non attributable posting to a message for it and so very very unvetted. We actually didn't receive that information until late very late in the afternoon on the fifth and almost into the evening and because of our emphasis on. We need any intelligence. Even though it was raw unattributed. Unvetted the norfolk office quickly wrote that. Up specifically in a document following our processes to disseminate that so a situation information report is for the purpose of sharing that with state and local partners. Not only did they write that up because they knew how important it was to get that information out into hands of folks that might need it. Our state and local partners within forty minutes they sent an email to the washington field office with that information in washington field office also then followed up with an email to all task force officers and so several different mechanisms were happened here. And we like to use the phrase belt and suspenders. We didn't want to make sure that one method of communication failed so we wrote it up in the document for dissemination. We sent it in an email to all task force officers in the national capital region and that does include washington metro as well as capital but again not wanting to rely on those two mechanisms. It was then in a command post and inter agency command post that we were doing briefings every couple of hours. So that every agency in that command post have what we call a common operating picture knowing what all of us knew at any given time. It was briefed at eight pm on the evening of the fifth and then taking it one step further because we didn't want wanna limit our aperture to just the national capital region because there's collection opportunity out there for all state and local partners and federal partners to help us. We loaded that suspicious information report into what we call the leap portal and that is accessible by allstate local partners so we really tried in various ways to make sure that we did not rely on one communication mechanism and really tried to rely on several. So that the information would get to the right people. Thank you madam chair. Thank you to the panel general. Thank you for your service. In response to senator king a moment ago he noted your testimony from earlier today that you had seen the requisite authorities granted for dc guard in a matter of minutes in the past in this case it took over three hours and you stated you believe that it was a combination of political concerns and optical concerns led to vet delay. Can you please breakdown which concerns. You believe we're political which you believe we're optical and what's the basis for your assessment that the three hour delay was a function of political and optical concerns. I don't think it was so much political. Let me focus on the optics. Because that's what. I heard the word optics and the word that having uniform presence at the capital could inflame the protesters that. That's what i can. Who made that. Statement was senior leaders in the united states. Army general pyatt General flynn and others. They got back to me saying and and that was on the phone call with district of columbia senior leaders that it wouldn't be their best. It wouldn't be their best military advice to send uniform guardsmen to the capitol because they didn't like the optics and they had also said that they thought it could inflame what they wanted to do. Hussein guardsmen to relieve police officers in the city so more policemen could get to the capital. That was the call at two thirty pm. Following the chiefs. Call to you. Is that correct. General yes sir. And you conveyed to those on that call who included the mayor of the district of columbia secretary of the army. The acting secretary of defense and the chairman of the joint chiefs the fact that the us capitol police chiefs tone had been as you describe in your testimony. Frantic that he had informed you at one forty nine pm that the security perimeter of the capitol had been reached by hostile riders that the joint session of congress interrupted that the vice president was still on the premises. I never said that. What i what i we laid. It wasn't to the chairman. Would i relate to the army. Leadership was the call that that Chief son had with me at at thirteen. Forty nine at one forty nine and it was an urgent plea and his voice was cracking and he was serious. He needed help right than in there. Every available guardsmen at the two thirty to call. That's when the deputy mayor was on the call the Director of homeland security acting chief. Conti chief son and others to include the chief of the united states secret service uniformed division was on that call as well so we dowd in trying to get the secretary of the army on the cau- but he wasn't available so armee g three for the army general. Flynn joined the call and the director of the army staff. General pyatt joined the call and there were others on the 'cause well and don't call chief son pleaded to have national guard support at the capitol immediately that was reinforced by chief. Conti we need them. They're right now. The capital will be breached. Thank you for the clarification. General reshape that mr salacious between two thirty pm and four thirty two pm. What were the internal deliberations of a department of defense to determine whether or not to grant the request but senator. There was discussion secretary. Mccarthy is the secretary of the army at the time Asked what was the national gore going to do on the capital specifically. He wanted you get closer to the microphone. Thank you secretary. Mccarthy wanted to understand exactly how the national guard was going to be employed coming to the capital obviously the environment because they had heard the gunshots had been far was explosives obvious pretty dynamic environment so what he was trying to understand was. What was the national guard going to do. When they came up here or they're going to be asked to go into the building. Clear the building or they're going to be part of the outside perimeter. He was trying to understand that. He went as far as going to the metro. Police department at sixty four ten to sit down with them make clear understanding of how they're going to be employed after that meeting of four ten. He went back to the acting secretary of defense for thirty two. He approved the deployment the national guard. Thank you and he was aware was he not while he was conducting this analysis that the nature of the chiefs request relate through. The general had been frantic that the perimeter of the capitol had already been breached that members of congress lives were at risk for the vice. President's life was at risk. I would assume he knew that senator. He was aware of that during that time. Thank you so much. I do have to reflect for a moment that ultimately responsibility for securing this complex falls to the united states congress which is responsible for these premises. I was dispirited. Speaking with the former chief in our last hearing when he described that there was no individual responsible for the security of the united states capitol. That an urgent request for support from the guard required concurrence with the two sergeant at arms and unwieldy command structure. And then there was an unwieldy command structure imposed within the executive branches. Well general based upon your military experience is there any reason why the united states capitol police could not generate the capabilities to independently provide the kind of quick reaction force that the troops under your command would have so that this institution the united states congress is not dependent upon swift decision making by the secretary of the army or concurrence between civilian and military leadership when the lives of members of congress and the vice president are at risk. What will yes sir senator. The united states capitol police could develop that capability. I mean they. They certainly could thank you. General and a final question for you. Had you conducted any exercises that included simulations of civilian-military sit joint decision-making simulations of command decisions involving contingencies. That threatened the functioning of the us. Congress members of congress joint sessions of congress outside of the context of specific preparations for specific national special security advanced. No sir might exercises such as those have improved the cassidy of the overall command to respond to an event like this we will prepare to to come to the capitol and and help the united states capitol capital. Police secure the capital we. Here's what we do we practice. Rehearse civil disturbance. i think we're well exercised in capability. It is a mandate to all national gar- practices civil disturbance where equipped for we trained for. And we're prepared to do it when called upon so if we would we'd have been approved to do it. We would have got there and helped the united states capitol police understood general and i have no doubt that the forces under your command were appropriately trained and qualified. My question is whether any quipped my question is whether any exercise have been undertaken that simulated the command decisions that would need to be making the requests that you would need to make for example at the secretary level in order to allow your troops which were properly trained and equipped and had those capabilities already. They're already there. The process as well rehearsed well practice. We do it. Most of all with the enact with the metropolitan police department they are our primary customer. But if you recall when the monuments were attacked in the summer the department of interior on behalf of the united states park police exercise that same requests the the secretary of defense authorized the district of columbia national guard to respond to monuments in the city and helped the park. Police protect those moments process. Thank you for your testimony banking. Thank you madam chair. Ms sanborn in the investigation afterwards to the fbi or any intelligence gathering entity of government subpoena request or issue a warrant for non individualized phone and credit card records for anyone on capitol hill on january. Six i don't have the specific answer to a specific subpoena. But i do know that. We've issued lots subpoenas and lots of search warrants as a result of each of those individual in my questions not towards individuals like. Have you see john's with video. I'm fine with looking at his records. My question is did you have a generalized collection of data about people who are on the hill on january sixth. Not that i'm aware of. I do know that we have used data and this is reflected in some of the charging documents that had geo location. Data i don't know the background. For what the underlying predicate was for that search warrant. But i do know that. We obtained geo location data. I just don't have the you understand the potential problem here. If you gather everybody's data and then start searching and looking for people who might have done something wrong as opposed to the traditional law enforcement where we think. John smith is on video breaking into the capital. Now we want to look at his records and see if he was there to help prove was there. I think that's a reasonable request. But we have had articles written about the bank of america sharing all of people's credit card information. What i need to know is did you request it. did you subpoena. Did the bank of america just decide. They don't care about the privacy of their customers. And just upload data these are important questions. The fourth amendment's out there to protect against ally searches. And i think you know the importance. Most people in law enforcement know the importance of you individualize. We're all fine with that but there are even reports that elected members of congress is phone calls records as well as credit card records or in this data. Have you heard of that or seen any of that. I don't have any specifics on that. Sarah happy to follow up. There was a there was a political reaction to events from over the summer and that political reaction resulted in in restraints being put on guard deployment that ultimately Ended up being dangerous on the day here on january six missing. Where can i come to you for a second. And just follow up on something that senator paul was asking about. I had the chance to talk with director ray. Yesterday the judiciary committee in a wide ranging hearing there and one of the things. I asked him about where these reports about private companies who have conducted broad searches their customer databases and then turned over according to reports turnover over this information voluntarily. He's he said he didn't have any heated no way or the other. I heard you give a similar response to senator paul. You said you'd follow up with him. Can i ask you the same with me with specifics about their absolutely thank you and let me just ask you a little more. Broadly to your knowledge has the fbi requested or required private companies to turn over meta data in order to identify individuals who may have present in the capital region or engaged in violence on the sixth anything we would have requested from any of those companies would have been the subpoenas search warrant via lawful process. Benign would have to get you the background of when we may have asked for that or not. I'm not positive of the situation. But i would reiterate that if we obtained that it would be from a lawful court order or a subpoena my first question for you Sanborn it's been reported that the f. b. i. deployed state of the art surveillance plane to watch the protests that occurred in washington d. c. summer in response to the death of george. Floyd how do you explain. The difference in how the fbi responded to the black lives matter protests compared to the pro trump protests so. I don't have any specifics on. The plane is just not my purview of something that i cover specifically as the assistant director of counterterrorism but what i can tell you from the counterterrorism divisions approach to both of those was not different we go after the violence and what we saw some are long was violence and people using the guise of first amendment protected activity to conduct violence and we opened hundreds of cases and arrested close to one hundred people throughout the summer and their activities so our approach to both instances was equal opportunity. If you're gonna do violence in the united states and baked federal law the fbi gonna investigate. We'll certainly i understand that and you should. There's no quarrel there. Where would we get the answer on. Use of surveillance plan versus not on january six other occasions across the country. Yeah i'll take the question back. I think it would be best posed for our critical incident response group but definitely i'll find somebody that can follow up with you. I appreciate that walker. You are also asked by by someone on the panel about the helicopter with in relation to january sex. And you said that's not normally we would use. I believe i don't want to characterize you said it wouldn't be necessary. But that's what i did get from. It is that it's not normally used and yet it was used the summer protests. Why was it used. They're not on january six. What was there a different circumstances. How do we explain that difference. So it is my understanding so one of my deputy commanding general's author were put. The helicopter up ultimately ultimately is still made but they request was made to to get. I believe they request was to be able to observe and report the crowd size. It was at night that night versus a daytime operation in so. That's why the helicopter was there I just want to correct the record regarding the rc. Twenty six that was mentioned that the district of columbia national guard never requested in our twenty six fly over the district of columbia so the difference between the summer and january six was. The secretary of the army was right next to me for for days at a time when when it came time to respond to the to the white house. The secretary army was with me. The monuments secretary of the army was with me either came to my headquarters he wrote in the car with me are or i wrote in the car with him. I was present when he called the secretary of defense and the attorney general to request a approval for a request that the city may so the city wanted us to conduct additional traffic. Control points blocking vehicles. The secretary gave me a verbal and then contacted the secretary of defense and the attorney general and it was done so so those those are just some of the differences. That occurred and i didn't have the secretary army with me on january six. The secretary was with you during the summer. Those were large large gatherings all the evidence pointed that this was going to be a very large gathering and we know that some based on social media that there would. The capital and numbers of congress was going to be a target. Is there a reason that you know of that. The secretary of army was unable to be with you on that day. I don't but the secretary of the army is the secretary of the entire army. So i don't know what else was going on throughout the army globally deployed. I do not know why he was not with me on january. Six as he was during the summer we have a unique situation here at the capitol where the chief is reporting to this police review board You General walker may be most familiar with it but reporting to the sergeant at arms at two sergeants of arms and the architect of the capitol. It's three of them. And in fact. Just today as senator schumer announced a new sergeant at arms at karen gibson while you guys were sitting there and so there is something about the structure which may work for requesting resources or making decisions but certainly didn't work in this context. Where the chief. Then chief son was leading up to it asking them probably not able to do exactly what he may have wanted to do at the time and then the most ridiculous of situations during the insurrection is actually calling them for their advice than a while. They are individually guarding the members and safely getting them to other places in this crisis situation and just your views on whether or not that is an ideal situation. This is a call the softball walker. That is a Whether or not this is a ideal situation then maybe Miss san burn for trying to make decisions in a crisis says we look at changes that we can suggest and make here at the capitol. I work on a regular basis with the capitol police board. I just met with the the new team on monday. In fact the the challenge quite candidly is in in contingency operations contingency events that really needs to be one person george making decisions to have four people that have to either agree or come together and have the same. I just don't think it's a very workable solution. I also deal with all the capitol. Police come requests that come to the defense department. Normally we have we get the request actually at the last minute most of the time because it takes all four of them to sign the document to give us the request for example right now we have the national guard on the capital. Today it's supposed to end on the twelfth. We're trying to figure out what the capitol police board what what's going to happen after twelve. We need an answer in the defense department. So that we understand exactly so the secretary can review and make a decision on how that support will either be continued. Or just harrington. I would agree with that. I just would like to add something else i could. i do. think that All of us now because of the unique environment that rented as we talked about extremism. I know we talked a lot about intelligence assessments those types of things and and they're critical to this effort really being able to predict but i think we also need to anticipate and when we see large crowds gathering in the national capital region. They're all permitted by the park police so we know what they're going to be here. We need to do a better job anticipating that kind of activity so that we think about the most likely and most dangerous scenarios that we face with that. We need to plan together. We need to train together. We need to exercise together and we need to have an integrated security. Plan here for the ncr. As i mentioned in my opening statement about the number of law enforcement organizations that we have here in the anc or in the different jurisdictional responsibilities. We need to bring them together. So we know how that we're going to operate in these these complex environments that we're facing right now and then we need to understand the critical capabilities that each of us can bring to that and we need to make sure that we have pre arranged agreements to provide those capabilities in a timely fashion challenges. When you start from zero in your face with the challenges that we faced on the six collectively. That's a very difficult position to start from north. Think if we work at some of those things. I think we can be much more effective than a department of defense really looks forward to working with people on the law fair. Podcast is produced in cooperation with the brookings institution our audio engineer and intrepid editor this week is zachary frank of goat rodeo. You need to do your part to promote the off air. Podcast tweet about us. Cher us on facebook pinterest on pinterest and us on read it. And for heaven's sake leave us a rating on review wherever you found us the law fair podcast is produced by gen pot. You how our music is performed. By sophia yan are merch is available at the law. Fair store dot com and as always. Thanks for listening.
Trump Flops, Olivia Rodrigo WINNING 5.25.21
"Hey guys it's miles and you know spring's here which means it's time to get outside and start growing again no matter what. Your project is tiger. Lilies to tomatoes tomatoes indoors to in for gardening gurus of first timers alike. Miracle has what you need to help. Get your gardening glory this summer. So miracle gro look. It's the number one brand in gardening and made sure your plans get the best seventy years so for tips tricks how to's moore's including projects for the whole family the whole family this summer. Check them out and miracle. Gro dot com. That's miracle g. r. o. dot com here comes. The break is an audio drama. Never heard before asante black stars. As ruben a young creator with family pressure anxiety issues who finds his voice interview in the hottest new hip hop artists in the game within the fictional story every episode features a real interview with def jam artists like babies and bobby sessions and an exclusive song. Dropped from each artist from double elvis. Def jam an iheartradio listened to here comes a break on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay here we go. Oh what. I gotta go get get my no card. Wa wrote my. I'll be right back all right. Give me a great episode. i can tell. Oh hello the internet. You know what this means. It's time for the internet's favorite substitute teacher and welcome to seize a one eighty six episode two of the daily zeitgeist production of iheartradio. Yes we know is the podcast. We take a deep dive into america's shared consciousness. It's tuesday may twenty fifth twenty twenty. One my name is miles. Gray aka chew give era thank you so much to japex thousand mafia for that one. I'm still on the tube. Trains shout out to anna for my suit. Shuki mug i will with you will see it with me. It wasn't just jack who has one and because it's just me hosting today that means we got a tax someone and we need co host. And i am thrilled to be joined by today's guest. Co host Somebody who is is gonna drag you to the movie theaters for probably one of the most memorable experiences in life. You may remember from the last time she was on but please welcome. Michael is today. The brilliant talented hilarious joe l. Monique county new. People are telling me gonna be funny back. They say these fans are fucking suite with jack on now. It's up to me mouth eye on the to in here because it's brand new but obsessed with it. We're gonna talk about libya rodriguez today i to do one of her songs and make some intra. Music have a whole new appreciation for the fans. Right these hard. It took time work ethic. And you're doing like custom content to like just dropped albums too so okay. I'm bringing the energy. I wasn't amazon draft for a long time. My brother shamed me. He's like you're not as good as jamie. The bar has been set. I'm trying to. I'm trying to meet it. I'm trying to. I'm trying to just be cohorts. James that intro. Denali with sour taste in my. I'll tell you that shut to that. I will mean we. We'll talk about that. But first we have to introduce our guest. This guest is just one of the absolute legends of the show. I feel like. I don't even have to say his name. I should be like you'll just start talking. But i'm not going to. That will give this version of proper intro. This man is you know. He's just he's near and dear to our hearts. He's a brilliant comedian. A wonderful musician and we'll get to actually talk about music today because when we're talking music we got to have this man here. I am thrilled and we are thrilled to have our guest today. Mr chris croft was up. Miles joel i'm doing good. I'm i'm doing pretty. Hey i'm doing pretty good. I'm doing pretty good good to see her relatives audio. I got audio. I'm view sound butter man. Someone sent me a microphone. You know if you act helpless long enough people will send you. It's really true. It's a passive aggressive way to get through life. You just act like you're finally someone will be like god. Damn it gimme. He's get out of here. Give here do this. Jesus why i use along. When i was in a band i i don't know how to hook anything up. So you stand there and just a big spaghetti pile and eventually someone will just have had enough income over and just say. Give me these things. Yeah that's how. I never bought a pedal when i played. Yeah i have another get. Oh i would hold it up. Plug it in backwards than someone else will be like. I'll just ask like due to the massive paddleboard. Like what do you think i like. Throw on here to make. It sounded like all dude dude dude. Oh yeah and the next thing you know. I haven't paid for pedals but getting back either. Way we digress. Chris is great to have you on. We were saving so much. We didn't even speak before. Starting according had to save so much for the podcasts. We got david for the podcast. Which now we're here. It's the new talk to the hand flatter than better than to come. I'm so mad about you geek. Now we're getting. I think this is gonna require like the analysis. 'cause i'm now i'm feeling like a little dubious like where did this come from. Who is this a sign on the fucking cia. I think it's connected to the mainframe exactly. But chris we're going to ask you a few more questions to learn more about you. But i got to tell people what we're gonna talk about i We're gonna talk about maxine waters. Because you're you know we talked about jim clyburn in his like what he was willing to negotiate with these police reform bills it turns out maxine. Waters is of the same belief we are thinking. What are you thinking jim clyburn. No we can't take qualified immunity off the table if we're looking for meaningful reform will check in with trump's low blog because it turns out it ain't shit I know we've talked about some of the things that he's posted on his really cool word site but there's now the data that's looking at it and it's this is not great Then we have to talk. We've convened just three great minds to discuss music and in particular. The olivia rodriguez album sour. Which has taken over. The internet has all this. It's kicked off all kinds of intergenerational take warfare of like what do you mean there's no imo you don't know what your motor is everything and nothing at the same time and this is probably the best three people to talk about this and chris you did. Actually you put your ear to that a little bit right. i'm excited. Everybody needs a fifty two year old white guys perspective. I'll go yeah this is. This is the place they're coming forward. This absolutely do numbers man. I was checking out some of the bands. That old white guy was good. Yeah it's hard to get. Their records are out of print and stuff was going to be even more than that. But i chris we gotta ask you our guest. Our seemed guessed. What is something from your search history. That is going to just show us even more quickly than i going to ask this. Course maybe yes. Well i mean. I have this new podcast right so It's called cobra. Got me like which is not surprised. Enter show my yet. it's show thank you. I'm not good at this. So i can actually show my hopeless thing like this guy's name fucking promoting his twitch twitch show right. I came on here quickly. I said anna. Can i get a monday. So i can say the 'cause then the show goes on tomorrow tuesday so then i can say tonight i can say cold brew got me like tonight on twitch at six thirty pacific s what. I gotta go to disney land tomorrow. So it's on wednesday on. There's on monday down there chris. Plus why do you have to go to disney allies. It's a long story but like a bunch of Oh adult children. That i'm friends with la la. I'll tell you why los angeles y let's all go to disneyland over forty and pretend i know pretend like chris don't start cutting worse but like the people who are mostly going around forty s and they're gonna do acid. Yes oh chris rethink waiting. Everybody's going to be tuned into your social media. I wanna go to. I'm not in mansion on acid. I would not like to ride the guardians of the galaxy formerly tower of terror on acid frigging nightmare but Or it's a small world. I think please avoid those two rides. Do not want to have someone have a breakdown there. That's gonna be a problem by by the jumbo ride on all the children looking. Fantastic anything that goes like we know what the fuck joel. This is exciting for you. Because you're not forty or adding is yeah for you to go. I'm assuming you know you look like to me like you're twenty five. Chris thank you okay. Okay so whatever you are. You're certainly in age group. Were doing acid. Is you know maybe a fine decision for me. This will be the first time i if i decided to do. It'd be the first time. I did acid since nineteen ninety one. I think if i'm gonna do that. I might not want to jump right in disney world for the issues since in. Here's the thing that surprises me is. I don't understand how when you're in these people are my friends. They're nice people. But i don't know how they can go to something like disneyland and like take acid and not like think about their credit rating and relationship with their mom and and like you're your attornal child. I've seen full. Grown adult happens and mickey ears and take two drinks of whatever their liquor stuff is the place before we get inside. You know how. I could see acid hitting me in the way you're talking about. Chris is yes. Were there in the happiest place. And i've managed to avoid any like real thinking about maybe the ills of my life until you see like a fourteen dollars soda and then your time you see a family exile family. I can see their family dynamic. I feel for that teenager right arrow. I'll be like. Oh my god i gotta go talk to that young man and everything look like a cab. You know every ride. This is capitalism robot robot. This is exactly yeah all. It's a capitalist world. After all let me know ruin everybody's time pirates they'll be like yeah the pirates of the amazon's bazo pirates of american imperialism. Why don't they call every right in here. Jeff bezos ena. You all of your forty year old after jumping friends will. This is the thing that like two years ago. I did this already. But i had only been one other time and i had a friend with me. Who wasn't doing acid so we could use. It's okay these people. Are you know i mean. I have a picture from all of us on space mountain because like space mountain. Does those automatic pictures even like. I'm you know you can see the as people. Because they're like yeah. There is more out of this. Yeah you know what i mean. This is a fun roller coaster. And they're like. I don't know what they're you know they're thinking about. I guess as aztecs or something like that look like in their is. They're looking at getting getting way more out of it but they weren't getting like what i see if i did acid. I swear i would ruin everybody's time because i would just be like. This is the military-industrial complex. I mean that's all i would do. Walt disney was semi. who presidents is. Another thing i think to avoid because the animatronic on her own already there without being around. I'm not going there. I'm not going to the hall of oscar. Children the real truth. One black people to be free. just all presidents is so can racist. Blood sucks like frontier land. Let's burn this shit totally. I mean seriously straightjacket. Syrups are just read some howard's and did some acid our heads all that to say so. What was in your search history. Chris okay. Well what happened was since i've had this cobra got me like this week is on wednesday on twitch. That's tomorrow if you're listening today. On tuesday the show is on tomorrow on twitch. It's called cobra got me like and go to twitch at six thirty pacific seven thirty a mountain eight thirty central nine thirty eastern which is funny. Some we'll got mad. Just don't put pacific. How much supposed to know when it is. And i'm like walk. Jesus i'm busy. So i said save it for the podcast out of. I don't have one thousand. It doesn't matter it's morally talk to the hand. podcast. I'm in prison now because i went to disneyland on. Acid really doesn't matter political disney disney twenty years for calling the just getting so mad at the hall presidents. I didn't love i. What did i say was cool taste like it's a small world after all ruined day. Volker i mean honestly chris you should launch your relaunch cold brew me like by getting an altercation with disney security taco. The truth in front of kids acid. Got me like a terrible idea. That would i would sell before you get on sir am i. Am i wrong. Am i wrong all right back off guys. I'll settle down a little kids know it's strange fruit. Is you know what nina simone was talking about not song. They're like what is he doing. Is he doing this. Guy's not come to the spirit of the park in the park is money and this is not part of it. This is about money. I don't know if this guy understands this okay. So cobra got me. Like i have to find videos. We get it show. You find your favorite you okay so my search history is me looking for videos now because i realized that i have like fifteen videos i like and then there's like a there's then there's a big drop off like i have some classics like everybody's got a bunch of youtube videos. They like you know. And i have a bunch of weird ones that i like but now i've been kind of having to look a little deeper so my search sisters getting weirder and weirder like i'm like like the weirdest thing i've put it in his diner audio nineteen eighty like i've sort of fantasy things that will never come up. You wish were there on our station. Nineteen eighty ri- right k nine ninety zone though. That's not a lie. Chris nowhere is as tori amos performance from the mantra jazz festival in nineteen ninety or some shit i japanese people brought a fucking forte cameras. As the and it's the most surreal shit to the montreal jazz festival in the early nineties. In fucking four k because it you're not like seeing you know that arra in that kind of sort of digital resolution is jarring anyway japan. That was engineer in switzerland. But you said a japanese person brought the camera. Because like japanese company at the time was testing like hd cameras there's a lot of experimental hd stuff like. I've noticed that the monterey jazz festival because they the japanese people love jazz. Oh yes oh jazzman. They're all yeah acknowledgee jazz drummer. Also like you're mostly. There's a like a one in three chance or may. Japanese person is the shadows to all my homies shadow to senator meyer skin. And her father. Peter skin no legendary jazz drummer for whether report weather report you talk you talk about whether almost every show i feel like i'm on. They come up. Which is so interesting to the parts out. I want to talk about joe's album. No that's okay. Do all they do to me yeah amazing. It guys. they'd probably invented for k. When they were taking a break from playing jazz jazz very deeply tied into technology one hundred percent this music. This is technically the best music. That's what they said the mantra of jazz. Your germs looking for we. Just we have size that most precise you have to say. That's a german. He must precise music is no room for error which is not true. Okay so anyway. I just look up tons of tons of videos and like i'll tell you one of them. I found recently is This guy named super joe reed. Who is a stunt. I've i really liked dare-devils because i grew up I was eight years old and nine hundred seventy seven which was prime time for evil knievel. So i like looking up but there's other dare-devils to you know. I found this guy named super. Joe read which we talked about a couple of shows ago and On the cobra got me like the Twist show and super show read is He's obsessed with jumping over helicopters that are running like with a motorcycle And he also this this particular one. I know we've got a lot to do so i won't do this too long. Super joe. reid had a motorcycle. Jump that someone. Videoed definitely not in four k in like nine hundred ninety six turns out. The dare-devils are lagging behind the jazz festivals. Surprisingly he's a camcorder or whatever. The hell was full size with a giant videotape in it. Super joe read anyway jumped over a couple helicopters. He hired some female dare-devils which is really into their female. He's a couple of females on. Jump this helicopter. Totally sexist and And why are they just regular motorcycle. Jumper super joe read. Because it's nine hundred ninety six so this guy jumped over these. He kept saying how there were no tricks. There are no tricks. There's no tricks a real helicopters. But my favorite thing i put the trick was that he dug a pit for the helicopter to fly through. So it's like basically almost underground so they can jumping okay but he kept saying no tricks whenever whenever anybody says no tricks. There's definitely tricks because if there's no tricks you don't have to say no tricks you know what i'm saying. you know. What the trump administration we know we know. We want for savvy so anyway this got. Yeah so it's funny that the on video you can see that because you're like how's he gonna jump over a running helicopter and the answer is you. You make the breakup go above the helicopter and the helicopter kind of goes through gully and we kept going no tricks no tricks and then the best part though is he yelled about permits forever was like. I don't even care if anyone could do this job. No one could do this job first of all but second of all. No one can do this job because they wouldn't be able to get the permits took me get the permits. You get a pilot bonded piloting the license you get a military company and get permissions for the canyon. You get permissions for the desert. You think so. I just the idea of a bunch of old daredevil sitting around being done is getting the permit. it's a permanent ice. you pull that off. And he asked that children jumping over. Not only is this. There's no trick to this. I'm jumping over a helicopter with two females. But on top of that. I'd like to even see you get the permits this kind of june so the real son is the permits. The love it chris. What is something that you think is overrated celebrities. Oh yes even though you have a famous to a choke hold. Got me like even though i wanted my whole life to be a celebrity because i thought it would solve all my problems my whole life. I thought that i wanted to be a celebrity because it would give me love without me having to do any work right. I have found out that also used to beat out the hollick. Joel as part of my alcoholism. I was like what better way to be an alcoholic than be a celebrity. Because then you have handlers and you have like a team you know of j. met his wife that way who she robert downey junior was his handler. There you go and that's exactly right. I don't wanna have to meet people like put myself out there. I just want my handler to fall in love with me. Because i'm a celebrity dying. That's exactly right. That's what i wanted now. Never i'll always have love. And i'll never do any work and no rejections rejection who's gonna leave orbit everyone's favorite place on earth and the land of no rejection and failure. Exactly so the land of no action as well. It's weird how that works right. But i mean no one's gonna leave your orbit of your celebrity because it's unlimited snacks until you're twit show cobra me like doesn't start doing as well do. Use your real friends. There's always there's always a cliff bar within reach when you're a celebrity for free Yeah and that's enough to keep your significant other around a monster even if you're a monster you're like he free bases all the time but i get free cliff bars. Yeah and these backpacks get for. Free out of cologne is dumb. I i have a coffee mug that you can charge your phone by plugging your phone into it. I gotta make the kids choice awards so anyway. The idea that celebrities First of all yet because as an addict you're thinking i used honestly think that like listen. If i get out of hand i can go to a mudbath or whatever it promise you know right and then let exhaustion right and then i go back to my other lifestyle so they'll also like go to the doctor whenever i want they can check up on dying or whatever and they say you're not dying and then i can do coke also got you. You're not dying but your heart can't handle any kind of in fed. Means i will say that you don't yeah doc. But i'm not dying. So i wanted to hear all right. It's not no it's not a good idea any of it. none of it's a good idea. And i mean it's a terrible idea. Yeah that i'm going to do coke and then find out if i'm still alive and then do kokin but i really wanted to. I thought figured if you're rich you can have a doctor in your house. I mean look at my poor michael jackson and his own doctor. Like gimme fall. And he's like. I can't say no to the king of pop. Yeah what are we going to say to someone. fucker will say no at all. meet sleep. What did handle what happened. Did you come out the other side. What's your vision now that you had take. So here's my take my take has the it was see in the was seeing the academy awards and it was lovely because it looked ridiculous ridiculous. Everyone involved in it looked like an ego maniac. No want to see Glenn closed due. But or whatever the hell she's doing because they're fools. Celebrities are nothing but the worst of us. In a way i mean. I'm not saying they're not talented. Some of my love but the culture is absurd in this pandemic revealed celebrities to be just what they are which is completely narcissistic versions of ourselves and once they were stuck at home they just look like assholes because they were just like kind of people like they were just like kind of people. I gotta say when they did that Imagine all the people video at the top of the. That's exactly i was thinking in. My head was gelded. Oh when i was thinking that yes it's like. This spends too much time on their makeup in their hair. This is not someone. I should be my. That should be my eero doing their own makeup and hair listen. Celebrities have far too much time because people will eight organized their life be there the revenue stream for at least six people. Once you're at a certain level oh liberty and those people are going to make sure you get to where you need to go. So don't worry about driving anywhere they can send a car for you. Your hair and makeup bill de that. You haven't showered. They might even scrub you. Just deal with your stink. Whatever is easiest for the general team right. They're going to pick up your clothes. You'd have to worry about that. People we talked about the other day. We were offended when he celebrity came to our office had to pay for their parking mortified. We're like what's happening. How been they can't pay. They couldn't possibly this person exponentially wealthier than any of us. Audibly world opens up to you and it's like on the one hand you don't want to feel bathroom thirty. Because they have all the options right and of course at seem time like that world is so preconditioned once you even just a little bit talented. You somehow get swept up into this thing like that's it you're off the extra exceptional celebrity may be like you know what i advocate o'connor was like i was really smart to that picture of the pope is. I've got to go back home and show where. That's where i mean a smarter decision by stepping out ho so hard that she was like the only person really got cancelled history. Well i saw that. I don't know if you remember sinead o'connor today that's a. That was a cancel. Oh yes she got fucked just for ripping up picture. The pope which is completely righteous. There's nothing wrong with i mean. In retrospect and i was like who cares goddamn pope turnover picture of queen elizabeth. Now we have people who are like well be may have been seventeen at the time. I don't know if the king and we're over here like i don't know there's not debate for this but to your point about the celebrity thing. Yeah it's you know on some level it's like sure the people themselves that they become whatever. Celebrity culture makes them right because it's not that they're like on some level yes. Some people who get reached that level of security will begin to really. I think switch gears into what they believe. Celebrity is and then you always have to look for people who try and maintain their humanity through it. Oh yes there are like versions. Where i'm surprised. At how like humble. Some people are not to say that that it's all varying depending on who you are but that there's also just like this thing that they also are uncomfortable with what celebrity culture is and what that means other people were some like. You know you'll meet you like nah. I'm just. I'm just a person. Thank you so much like. I can get that thanks to all of the celebrities who refused to show their kids That's mainly we're talking. No my child is not a commodity person. Well let them develop in private. But i think we also are learning like. You're saying chris to that when we're all stripped down to like what we really need as human beings looking at celebrities like it just feels very vapid or it it doesn't have substance to it or nourishment because like you're saying it's like these projections of our own egos that we wished to maybe be or can't be therefore it's easy to be invested in this version of a person that we think you know it's all to be but that to them. The new media landscape has made it so like say the oscars. It used to be like best picture. You really were off in like. Oh wow that those people really did some work you know and now best pictures. Like mario kart starring glenn close. I don't even know why glenn closed. Dude did debate. I didn't even watch it. But i saw all the takes of course because take my best friends and he called her up and he was like yo glenn. Please please do this for the best friends. No they're not making like. That's a better version of snoop and martha elevated to want to see that dinner party so anyway. My punchline that i wrote down was basically during the pandemic i found out that the real celebrities are deer and bears. I m hiking from hiking. I was so much more excited you know who's got more to offer you know. Got more to offer than glenn close to but a dear a real deer in the forest. So what i'm saying. Is i just realized that the real celebrities are animals like actual animals and nature urged and shit. I'm so much more excited to see a bear. I saw bears. Joe i went. I went hiking a bunch during the pandemic for the first time and that was just a shift. You know what i mean. I mean by my i guess my point was you know what who's not. I don't wanna see i love that. I'm just making us all about glenn close doing i wanna see them close. I would see it. I just saw the takes a number one pro naptime for looking for diner audio from one thousand nine hundred seventy man ordering eggs. Nineteen thousand nine hundred seventy four broth audio raw raw footage of man ordering eggs so anyway. I just think that for me. There was a shift toward like a away from celebrity culture which i liked because i like celebrities and i love pop culture but it just shifting to the woods. Literally you know was kind of fun for the first bear. Vogue cover exactly. I would vote. Cristiano style it. Let's go all right. We're gonna take a quick break and be back with one more casula. We got a lot of runway. When we're landing the crofton plane right back. Stick around as i gang. It's miles and you know of all the diy projects out there. Gardening is the most feeling you know you wanna breathe life into things and watch them grow. There's nothing like just starting with some dirt and nurturing it until becomes beautiful or delicious and it's coming from the soil like the old days when we were all cave people but whether you're looking to beautify your yard with incredible flowers and plants or its goal grow the perfect tomato. It's not about having a thumb. That's an unnatural shade of green off. Sometimes it can help. Gardening is all about giving your plants a great start. And that's why miracle gro is the number one gardening brand gro performance organic soils hope you increase your gardens bounty by up to two times versus unfed plants. Okay so keep those plans bellies full imagine luster flowerbeds with incredible seasonal. Blooms are growing more juicy plump tomato for your summer salads. Keep talking about tomatoes. But they're delicious. Grow what you love without compromise. Miracle gro makes it possible so get your next garden. Project started today at miracle. Gro dot com. That's miracle g. r. o. dot com. Hey miles i wanted to let you know that. This episode of the daily zeitgeist is being brought to our listeners. The all new showtime comedy series. Flatbush misdemeanors you mean. The show where they say. The struggle is real. Yeah it's kevin and dan perlman created the grand star in this comedy shows that you know how this stumbles and fumbles of everyday. Life can be hilarious. Which is true you know. Failure is a great driver of comedy. Kevin much like me trying to find a win. He's got old people backing out of buying paintings a drug dealer trying to kill him and a boss. That is always hassling him. Story my life and dan the other heaney's more confidence in his life who can't relate and he can't get the girl aka and his students fake child services claims just to mess with him in flatbush brooklyn. There's always something going down and we'll laugh out loud watching these two friends. Try to manage one failure at a time. Flatbush misdemeanors is now streaming only on showtime and. We're back finally chris. What's something that you think is. Underrated underrated is abandoned. Mine videos here is today. Not kidding. So i started watching. This is the other thing Joel during the pandemic like i always really deep into youtube. Because i'm sober. And i really don't like light to leave the house anymore. I like watch youtube. And then during the pandemic i got i used to watch mudlark ing. That was my main thing. That's in england. The thames river the marvel. It's two thousand two thousand year old city so the mud of the thames river is just loaded with clay pipes. Yeah and and and and it's and it's mostly clay pipes. They find his tremendous amounts of clay pipes. And and i found out from when i broke my hip a broke my hip a couple years ago. Shit now i watched mudlark a lot during that through show nikola white mudlark who it turned out was like t speaking of celebrities. A fan of the daily psyche like connected us on twitter. I about talk about celebrity. I about had a heart attack anyways. Mudlark anyway so but i started watching abandoned mine videos. Which is where these people go and minds and is a million minds. I guess mining used to be a huge thing ha ha and it was really and minds the whole country mining up until like they invented bitcoin. Or whatever so they now it's like mining whatever virtual mining and mario kart and everything and so. If you're crypto mario coins or something you could buy stuff with mario kart which is bullshit trying to explain to disneyland before i got taste so anyway i been really kinda into these abandoned mine videos. It's one of these things where i started watching a like look through abandoned mines and i've talked about on this show before and in the beginning i was like this is bullshit. There's only like three things you can find in there like a old or cart right. You know predictable or like a shovel or whatever. And they're like it's a riveted shovel that means it's all i mean it's really just pointing things it'd be like that's old. That's what i liked to do. Actually in real life i love old stuff and just being like that's all that's definitely older. Maybe it's not so anyways. I've gotten really into abandoned mine videos to the point that i know every term for a minute i could basically do everything in a mine except for actually mine. Oh like if you had to be a spy like go undercover. You're talking that talk. You're saying i could do any of it. Hit me only a minor. Hit me with some hit me with lyndon right now but hey chris. Hey chrissa is you work in before. Oh just ones with lots of stopes. I mean as a tremendous amount of stopes and there's a wins and there's drafts and You know kinda kinda equipment. What kind of equipment. You've been on pneumatic drills. Summit pneumatic drills. Obviously you know a lot of pressurized air and We're using the sometimes we Sometimes we Attacked aa. Chris don't drift off as we got a lot of spies coming in here to this mind trying to fuck up our operating meet me. Meet me at the we'll talk about. It sneak up and we'll talk about anybody knows about minds knows exactly what impact. Yeah maybe behind the stall. I mean i know every goddamn thing. There is no one in mind. How old shit is like if i look at an or car if it's riveted its pre nineteen hundred if it's not rid of its welded. It's a later one. Okay i mean if you wanna get in combining videos. Where's the best place to start. What videos should we be looking at. I like western mine detective. Because he seems like he goes in there with very little equipment. Like there's like they're like armed for you. Know they look like spacemen when they go in there and this guy kind of just goes in. A pair of shorts with a flashlight starts running around bat. Okay and i wanna do it now and if anybody wants to wants my podcast once my twitch cast gets a million viewers we're going to start doing You know mindless mindfulness. Weekends in abandoned mines. You gotta get you an i. R. l. stream rig. So you can go stream live from a mine shaft and they go might go looking into mind. That's the new cold mugabe. I wanna do it. That's another more colder than that. And that's i relate to these people. I mean they got nothing you know. It's like they're looking for mystery. They're hoping to find something but they found an or cart called pointing and stuff saints old. Hannah show skip car. There's something called the skip car to which is l- looks like an card and they love looking at those and being like. I think that's a skip car. He looks like an pretty sure. That's a skip car. That is a skip car or maybe or card we either way videos to be able to say unequivocally western mind. Detective is i gave you know. All i can say they have more to offer than they. I if you intertoto into abandoned mine videos and you're like hasn't for me go back again. Speaking of bygone structures that are banned into of little use. Let's talk about the congress And specifically as relates to police reform today is the anniversary of George floyd killing and biden was really looking forward to signing police reform. Bill one that passed in the house that had all kinds of reforms ended including band chokehold. Certain kinds of no knock warrants like the ones that led to the death of brianna taylor and even ending the practice or the doctrine of qualified immunity Which is a huge one. It's the reason why many police are able to get away with all the bullshit that they do is because they can never because of qualified immunity. They're protected from facing any kind of civil lawsuits and being financially liable. And we've seen what happens with when it comes to a criminal case. It rarely happens unless we have video of the entire thing. Unfortunately in the case of george floyd death so we talked recently about how representative jim clyburn. Who's just again monster in the in the house of representatives one of the just legendary black congress people who you know has outsized influence in the house. He went out and said that he was willing to negotiate qualified immunity that that was on the table like more than chuckles ending qualified. Like getting rid of qualified. Immunity is a massively imported completely. Changes the game in terms of what you can face now. A quick little refresher on qualified immunity is actually coming out of Eighteen seventy one civil rights law. That made a i. It made government officials. They were liable financially. If you violated someone's constitutional rights you're on the hook for for those kinds of offenses but then in a series of rulings in the late nineteen sixties. What timing the late hogan the late via woodstock so. This supreme court decided that an officer is immune from liability unless it can be shown that he or she broke quote clearly established law in the process. This creates a world where all of the burdens on the plaintiff. And if you don't have if a case wasn't tried with nearly identical sets of details it'd be easy for them to throw the case out So let's say there may have been a subtle dispute where someone was taste while handcuffed. Let's say you were pepper. Sprayed while handcuffed. You couldn't point to that and say well in this case it was decided because they'll say well. This is the exact same set of circumstances. I know they may be similar. But unfortunately you cannot bring this case against this officer and yet to your point will yet the sixties So they needed. They needed to protect the police so they could violate people's civil rights as they were fighting for their own civil ray marianna never before it needed to protect cops like that's pretty right even lying before and now who are scary happening well now and you know this is the thing now. We're living in a world where most decent people are looking at. What's going on in this country. End of the world. Say fuck can get away with this kind of like. Well how you know. That's actually a question is like how is this possible. And a few huge factor and all that is because they won't face any kind of trouble any financial liability or being able to be taken to court for maiming or killing somebody so this brings you back to clybourn and i just gotta say maxine waters. She came out and she said. I absolutely think it's not. Why would you come out and say that. You're that's on the table. How do you negotiate like that. Why are you saying this really important thing is up for discussion Inside just wanna play her response because after a few other Democrats have said well. You know we don't want the perfect. Be the enemy of the good. I guess we could just pass it because republicans. Here's maxine waters response to all that. But i'm not giving up on qualified immunity. I do not want to send any message to anybody that i'm willing to support legislation that does not having in it. I think we've got to be tough. We've got to be consistent and understand that we've got to hope. Police officers accountable even sent the death of george floyd. We've continued to have killings of black on our men in particular and so these police officers know that they have the support of the police unions. They have the support of city council members who are intimidated by the police. Unions police chiefs. Who fred that. If they don't go along they can't be cheap and even some mayors. I'm so proud of those mayors that are willing to stand up and fight and for the police chiefs that are willing to stand up and fight but history tells us that They have been intimidated too long. Given too much and the police don't believe that they're gonna be held accountable. That's why even. After george floyd they continue to kill and so i want qualified immunity out birdies pretty clear. That's one of the reasons emotion in her voice. And it's so hard to hear black elders like being emotional about this shit because you know that it's been going on like their whole life and their parents whole life and they had and i think the sixties super poisonous it just in that like there was such like inspiration in chance for hope and like people really thought it was going to change and by the eighty s. It was just so very clear that will get a change of the nineties. There was a resurgence of. They're all like oh for real this time though y'all for real and then you know it's still not happening. And so many waves of just like how many times have to go through this very basic shit before we could get on board and be like you know it's really not cool for cops to just shoot people like that's the whole that's like the argument like you can't be an executioner. That's not your job your job and these are the i think the fractures in the party for democrats have just become clearer and clearer and clearer. The progressive agenda isn't the for pushing a progressive agenda. They're not as bashful as they used to be in recent years because easy to get silenced by the establishment wing of the party does feel like they're friends thing. please don't. that's just a distraction. Now people coming out you know unequivocally about what are we doing you know because for the for all of the incremental ism that politicians love in d. c. all the incremental change that glacial pace every second that ticks by is a life that's potentially lost because we're not willing to just solve the problems that are so clear even to the point where like why is this. How is this possible. What are we And that there's too many massive structures in place to to dress allow for that change. That's what i'm thinking about like jim clyburn. I was just reading a little bit about him about his positions in the past. You know he. He initially voted against gay marriage and then came around. His position evolved Their of he's had evolving positions like every senator and congress person because they have to because they're part of the power structure and they're the power structure is in place because of the police largely. I mean the police are frightening and have been militarized and democrats and republicans have watched as military surplus. Military equipment was was was transferred to the police. I mean not a good rate at a good rate. They got a good deal on that stuff. Oh yeah i mean yes so like you know like my hometown where there's no crime at all as armored troop carriers and and you know so i don't know you know i think jim clyburn and just like with all of them are under background forces that are because it makes perfect sense to get rid of qualified immunity. It's that's deranged thing to have. I think the other thing is just. They don't understand what political capital they have like to. Even say i think like to to them. They look at. This is how it works in the hill. You have a bill us kind of show your cards in the media you start working out you know you you kinda gotta give this up to get the other thing because then down the road you're gonna make this lasko whatever but all of that. Triangulation is just so cynical just so slow moving that it doesn't allow for real substantive change because you're trying to do all this triangulation when he could be like. Look this is the position if not it will make sense in a system that didn't have exclusively to parties one of which is consistently acts in bad faith. The wild to me where your democrats talk about like oh really republicans. But the republicans aren't working with y'all like it's always a one-sided like we'll give a little here we'll give a little there. I don't understand how especially when the data shows the majority of americans period are interested in these kinds of reforms. Why they can't stand in their truth on that i don't understand because they're not gonna ever conquers Of the culture of politician and is changing. That's why we see younger. People entering the house for more progressive are like. They're just gonna they're gonna sign onto letters. Were they're trying to be more vocal and things like that. Were as many other guys like well. It's just you don't wanna do too much too soon and it's like this isn't the that's not how it works too. Many people are dying because too little is being done too late and the republicans are absolutely deranged. I mean they've proved them. So i don't even you can't even call them. It's not they don't deserve to be called a party anymore. I mean honestly i there. There are after the january. Sixth thing and i'm just trying to ignore that had happened. I mean you know this is an after they stoked it and then it happened and now they're just pretending it didn't happen at all as if i mean really authoritarian like george orwell type. It didn't happen like it just didn't happen the way you saw it It's money and politics. I mean jim clyburn like the rest of them need corporate money to get elected. They need lots of it. And that's underlying it all until the reason why these progressives can't be progressive is because until there's money out of politics in a significant way we will never get anything different than this bullshit it just because these people are not until you need less than five hundred million dollars to get elected. You're never going to get people that you want in there. Who are really going to be able to make moves because they are beholden. And i know it's nothing new to say. But i mean it's like there's so much money in politics. Yeah there shouldn't be any money in politics. I mean you look at this sums that are spent to just have joe biden and office effort. That little drips and drabs of progress. You get like and what and like imagine just one person. One person gives you a million dollars and says my brothers policeman. I'll give you this money but you ever take away qualified immunity. I mean then you take that voice and apply it to like the dow chemical telling you that Or you know being like listen. We like our plants. We like our pipelines. We don't want people fucking with them and police will not beat the fuck out of these people protesting the pipelines if there's no more qualified immunity and they have to consider that even if they don't want to and they know it's wrong they have to. They won't get elected. And that's because of fucking money in politics. And i know that's not a wild take but it's just like no but i think it goes it. It shows the absurdity of the system in general. You know that they're such simple things that can be done. That could optimize it by me. But more than anything. Because of the capitalist class of people that are able to manipulate all of our policy because they have all this all these resources that's just that perversion isn't going to be giving them explicit tools given to them like dark money packs and things they've made it easier and easier for people even people from other countries. Are they say no foreign. I mean there's no way to know who donates you with a five. Oh one c. Four by design. They're they're made for people who hate who never want to have who loves sadists who love to see. Police beat people donate to these packs. And there's a new. There's there's been new analysis to of like what sort of the new conservative donor looks like. And it's like a lot of these like wealthy boomer business owner people who have a lot of money from their own businesses small businesses but enough to give in the millions who are hell bent on you know keeping their racist grandparents rants alive through who they put an office really quick. I just wanna touch on a little bit of good news. Which trump's blah it's an absolute fucking failure nonsense. It's like everything else. He's ever blog completely. It has become irrelevant. I love that they are low. it's sort of what. What kind of mentions he used to get right. And what the height it was in the fucking sixteen million like numbers it's ridiculous. He's down to like basically beginnings of the twenty sixteen presidential campaign levels of like mentions. It's like wonder really really low and to the point. Where like there's people who this computer science professor megan squire though as she described it as he's whistling in the wind will aren't people just aren't following into his little desk platform and we can see that in the numbers. The difference is ridiculous. He doesn't hope. I hope the name of his blog is whistling in the way trump wesley in the wind too much but then he says he doesn't have the same ability anymore dot billions of constantly put his content in people's faces the way he did before he's kinda panicking too because he doesn't know what to do because he knows it's not hit like used to. You can't get arrested two. He's got mounting legal fees. And they're saying to get arrested but one day they pointed can't wait. They're conservative platforms. That were created a lot of conservatives like tried to create these alternative social media platforms because cancel culture and they tried to predict. Oh we can just get trump to use our product. Then we're going to be fucking killing it. But the thing is they keep asking him to endorse one of these and he won't because he looks at them as like less less than analogs to like twitter's he's like not an off brand twitter. I'm not gonna do it like he'd yeah he still gets that he wants to be on twitter and it doesn't matter even if they give him money they say that might change. Because your point. Chris legal fees at the moment. He's like you know it's like when your parents like we have mcdonalds at home. He's we have mcdonalds at home. We have parlor whatever the fuck it is. It's dot twitter. Which is now. His old team is trying to work on something. They're calling trump media group which they hope to launch in the summer will include a new social media platform and they say they talked to trump regularly about it and they're getting updates on it but the final product is not ready at several points. Why would anyone in their right mind. Try to launch a social media app this summer. We're gonna be wilding. Who the hell is looking for. A new social media platform shot girl summer. I love it. I love joel with the practical side of it. It's like first of all just plain old business would be chasing bears in the woods. This is not the time relaunching. What the discourse and you're not going to bring liberals who eight trump supported app. It's just not going to happen. And so it's going to be like when they put private servers up for like nazis. Video games like nazism by you go to that server with all the other nazis and live in that little and everybody else will leave you. Alone will be great. There's no way you're going to get the discourse which is what makes social media juicy in the first place without outdoor. Why are you doing this. I it's annoying to me that he'd be so bad business and get so many chances fifteen percent better business than trump. I didn't go to business school. I'd terrible with money. Give me some money. I will make bland for you. It'll be better not much sold interesting to mazing would love that. You know the the right. I love the melanin levels and generational wealth can do for you. You know. I love that so much. I love that analysis because like this is the thing the funny thing about this is. I've been thinking this. But i didn't really understand. It's just because he's old like i love their launching this summer. Like it's the whole idea that they're going to need all that time like a like someone younger would have. This would had this thing up and running like the day. He was out that vince. Give it to somebody. Because they're using you know they're using their crony network of people's nephews and cousins design and it's going to be a piece of shit and it's gonna take forever i just i'm just gonna love when you're like. Oh my god. The maga- world bled him dry. Like even the little bit of money he had completely just. Jason miller son is really good at the internet. So is designing the new trump walk. And he's like williams looking at the accounting. You gave that killed thirty million dollars to develop a skin wordpress safe own. He's hanging out with matt gaetz. Fuck did that money go. it's anyway let's Wrap this up and we'll come back to for some riveting discourse the music off right after this. What does her ascension mean to ask a simple question in first everyone who know what matters to them. Let's be clear this is about fraud. Work the angles tonight here on. Msnbc we've got a special coming question authority. Are you going to be tough on the answers. Just not true favorite facts over conspiracy. What should american citizens know and trust standards over here. Say at msnbc. This is what we do and this is the are. Hey xichang. it's me jack from work or wherever you listen to the show The car maybe saying. Hey it's me. Jack from your car sounds weird anyway. Look i wanted to tell you about a product. I've used in past when i was leaving my job at cracked Wanted to stay in touch with listeners. And readers from crack. I went to squarespace.com and created jack. C o'brien dot to collect emails to stay in touch with you guys and it worked if you're listening to this you or whoever told you about the podcast factor into my trap but guys you can use squarespace.com for anything. It's an all in one platform they'll take care of ecommerce domains marketing tools analytics. Most importantly for me dumb person who pretends to be smart for a living. It's easy to use and it doesn't look easy to use it. Looks like you and an extremely talented graphic designer. Made it artistically with your own hands somewhere in brooklyn you can do it. All at squarespace.com go to squarespace dot com slash td z. For a free trial and when you're ready to launch us the offer code. Td easy to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. And we're back. I guess now. I will start off by talking about this new album from my perspective as it completely ignorant. Older millennial person i know that olympia rodrigo had an album come out called sour. I saw the means. That said millennials are feeling like little emo kids again. And i said okay. That's interesting i did hear. I know of this song driver's license and that's all knew prior to listening to this Album because i just knew it was a you know that that's what we do here on the daily cash. If it's just part of it we got to dabble in it. We got dip tone so joel the lead us in this discussion. Now of olivia rodriguez sal. Okay lesson as we prepare to enter a world determined to reestablish the status quo after we've learned so much change and be better as we enter a world where everyone is horny as bunnies and relationships are going to be mute for at least the next six months we could all use a heavy dose of teen angst and heartbreak. Hey olivia rod rigo if here to even the scales of whatever is about to be the summer. Hey turn on high school musical. The musical theory is one of the greatest titles for television show ever and later for her world. Romance with co star joshua bennett allegedly what allegedly krahn which allegedly chronicled in her first song driver's license. Olivia rodrigue has one of the most epic introductions to pop stardom since lady gaga lady gaga. Who's fabulously wealthy. And connections in the industry didn't stop the world from viewing her as the hot new thing from out of nowhere. Rigo love your horn. Right wrote for pitchfork has been on. Tv for roughly a third of her life and signed with the biggest record company in the world and everyone has an underdog right so but he goes heavily inspired by taylor swift which you can hear all routes our salaries about your first major heartbreak in all the angst that comes with that mixes heavy guitars or castle strings. Go and collaborative writer daniel negro intro of the album with one of my new favorite bangers brutal if you didn't catch it that was my intro song. was inspired song brutal. If you've ever been seven year old girl i was. This album will shoot you back to your final year of highschool where you were impatiently waiting for life to begin with lyrics like i'm so insecure i think will die for a drink and i'm so sick and evan gene. Where's my fucking teenage dream. The anxious hormone riddled insecure. Feelings come rushing episode as the power of the the feeling that you'll never die in the whole world lays before you only could figure out where to start to and twenty three second power. Jam blows out the eardrum and revise the inner branch drama queen jerk lover hiding beneath our practice manners. And it's so so so good. The album launched after you video for good for you. Which was directed petra collins. These bands are you know my love for hayley from paramore. And there's definitely inspirationally throughout the song. Cheerleader ascetics i'll under vomiting spirit and ever levine's video is hop punk perfection. They want her bedroom on by your and they fled it at the same time of so many emotions driver's license for eight weeks at the top of billboard's hot one hundred the piano heavy power ballad rodriguez relationship with as i mentioned at the top. But that's not been conserved. Online sleaze have been hard at work. Decoding old post between the stars. We're gonna speculation to the professionals. But what i love about. The song is a feeling of driving melancholy through your hometown. Rodriguez said she wrote the song. After driving around crying. I get it. Girl doesn't become an epicure karaoke on and probably a great stadium valid. The best part is the bridge which is designed to be sung and heavily heavily intoxicated. Crowd reminiscent of maggie. Rogers say driver's license launches rodriguez to global stardom. I'm curious about the this album. Okay this is where. I'm i'm i'm looking at it through the lens of like some of the music like just the arrangements. Don't vibe with me. But i'm thinking i was like but no there was a time when vanessa carlton got into my fucking mind. Even though it was the location. I would put on. Be like bury me with my vanessa carlton lp. And i was trying to keep my open for this. And what i found was i liked though. Like deep cuts. I liked one. Step forward three steps back allen that one jealousy jealousy. I was digging that one too but those felt like those are a little. I think it was because the production i could relate to a little bit more. That's their the angst. Though i was feeling the days abu said fuck is strawberry ice cream. Allah boo with the fucking two spoons. Adding new ones boon for two deja-vu is my shit. I love a song that is about just jealousy and hating a bitch. i can't outwardly. It's really hard for me very forgiving song a song. We'll get me now. i'll be like you. We did that person every time you're with her deja-vu whatever you're feeling for her yourself from you. Don't forget it gets under the skin. it's good. This album bounces back and forth between a lot of there's obviously a lot of inspiration from like early ninety s rock but then the odds like pop princess era. There's some new stuff so very very much a musical theater kids album in that. It's very leading piano. Guitar or xylophone are heavily featured instruments. And it's leading with her vocals. It for me. It's an album. No skip album several times. Brutal is easily my favorite track off the album. I think it is a seventeen year olds album and i think difference for a lot of people if you're like me and like seventeen hundred a very hard time for me like i didn't know what you wanted to do. I sort of felt like a failure starting into college and it was an awful experience mess and sometimes as ice revisit especially for seventeen year old. Who's got a lot of talent who is sort of going through. V basic emotional upheavals that i think again as a thirty year old. I can't publicly display any of that. But sometimes i still feel it on the inside and it's got with an album that's like expressing that that right right a very specific a specific her chris. You know that feeling of going to malibu. Strawberry ice creams wounds for two I grew up in connecticut in the nineteen seventies like. Okay so let's see what are the parallels year you. What did what was your first knowing. Like when i hit you up. I said we're gonna talk about. This album is sensation is for you. Know her imos. Gen z angst album. What are you seeing from your from. Fifty two thousand feet okay. I'm kind of kidding I mean i grew up in the eighties. Mostly i was born in sixty nine so a but as board sixty nine so like you know fifteen seventeen in one thousand nine hundred eighty six so for me. This kind of stuff was like i don. How horrible be. That's just the way it is. Some things never change. Which of course is sampled by like puff. Daddy i mean as something again. That's not even helpful. We'll ever have that song now. They're that's a sample. Oh yeah by two hot racist faces Okay yeah that's a good to two bucks. Version is awesome. But anyway i'm i'm a big pop music fan so i mean i i can i i right away like this But it also reminded me of so many other things reminded me of lord short like mostly like green light. It sounds like the whole record to me. I just skimmed it but it sounds like all sounds like green light by lord and also i don't this is. This is the part where i'm just gonna be a crabby go like. It's not as good as gordon light. I just wanted to say that. I don't need any more seventeen year. Old perspective neat neither neither as anyone else. We have so many seventy year being seventeen which is like the least consequential age. Everyone grows up past that. Unless you get run over by a truck i mean like you. I'm just saying that. Like the reason why teenagers are making all the music's day usually paired up with an older white guy. Which is this niagara. Dan niagara who's listed as the principal songwriter on all these songs. It's another like jack antonoff guy. It's like these. These white older guys telling seventeen year olds what seventeen year old ink sounds like four the consumption of the most people because old people and young people are the only ones who buy cds now these. They're still idiots who buy cds and their most middle. Got you back. They're mostly children children's still buy cds. And so that's why music is mostly aimed at teenagers because they're the only ones who still spend money and so two old people old old people. That's why like rod. Stewart was able to put out like ninety albums of standard. It's because old people don't know how to steal music and neither to fifteen year olds. So i'm just saying this and i'm not i'm not saying like joel at all that i don't like it i think but i do. I do like it. But i am tired of like life is. I'm like seventeen i used to be. I mean seventeen is is hard. There's no doubt about it but you can get past it but on the other songs about that then hear about like more breakup songs from like seventy two song is just about being in your feelings in that moment and i think that while i completely agree i don't like my music for the past. Six years. all been at least women in their thirties. Right like you think about what's happening now just in pop music but specifically like black caught music like me. It's like salon. Since i think is in her mid twenties then you have cardi b. and her and if all these women who are like way passes teenage phase in talk about grown woman shit which has been phenomenal. Like very grateful to have had these women in my life to get me through the last couple of years. But there's something i think. Producer in the same way that was really jasmina. Willow started releasing music or something about young women coming out and singing lake just like these. I just love a fucking song. I really really do and they'd be like this whole album. Basically i'm so feelings. And i'm so hurt and i don't know what to do. Shit that you blast. Yeah you got broken up with at a shake shack and you're driving home. 'cause you're their meal was ruined because you have broken up with and you're blasting this would tears coming down your face because that's what you need for but my question is to you chris. Have you ever listened to a track in this sense. Like where you're like i. This was this is what i needed at my lowest. It helps bring this bad songs. I love break so what so. What does that for you. this is going. Oh i know. But that's i'm trying to. I'm trying to hold anxious to me. Is like listen. Here's what you write a song about you. Write a song about how love isn't real and eventually find out that the real thing is just looking at bears and deer so my perspective is love. Yes sure i mean you can yell and scream about it. But in the end it's gonna get divorced and just to get real and and and go on a diet or whatever. I mean go paleo. What's a song from fifty viscera civic view. What when you are seventeen. What's a song you listened to feel all angsty in emotional. What was that song for you in that time. Getting your delorean. Chris and tell me what you're listening to. I'd oh god. I wish i was rich enough. To have a delorean. I was I would say like god. I listen to a lot of john. Denver cat stephen girard locations The father and son song was that one. It's the one where the kids go leave home and his dad's like he's like i gotta go and his dad's like stay and and he's like i got to be a man and right and you know it's the same lyrics. Have like a volvo right because you go from like this cat stevens song father and son where it's just like there's so much you have to know find a girl settle down. If you want you can marry look at me. I'm old but i'm happy like if they felt very folksy then and then like the. There's then i think like what the angst was. Maybe around like like a fiona apple title her album title. Which very poetic you know. She's like i've got my feet on the ground. And i don't go to sleep to dream you know you're like oh shit. And now we have like the lyrics of olivia rodriguez. That are like so easy to like just to understand. There's no ambiguity in the lyrics like we're talking about straight up jealousy we're talking about. Why are you comparing the relationships. We're quite literally. I feel like a fucking loser. The directness that is very different. To the this style of music or this genre of track where like or now just being like. Yeah man i fucking hate my step mom and my life. Without any poetry to do your. You can get past seventeen but there's some like but when your team that's the hardest thing you've ever had to go through right. It's like as older people like. Oh no sweetheart this is. This is gonna be fine. You're gonna work this out give it like two years. You're gonna be totally different person. Don't even worry about that but there's something so think about like this is the hardest time ever known and it's so challenging. All i wanna do is be better and that just that little colonel curl want to be a little better. I just weird yet. Because i i used to have like albums i listen to like when i was in my most. Emotionally turbulent like our these kinds of songs. Where i was like. Fuck it bro. Body can park bodies by fook and smashing pumpkins. much better choice. I will fucking listen to or billy corgan is like oh shit but i also i've noticed like as a person i'm kinda like as i'm are become an elder washed person. I'm having trouble tapping into like that. Era of like the chaos gets more nostalgic more than like it like they're like it's still in there or something. I wonder if this is the last time. I'll be able to feel this way about an since album. Is it. It seems like maybe this album is having that effect on people. That thought they couldn't feel that anymore and they could. No i i think i i bet you. I used to listen to lord a lot. I liked pop music. So i think it sounds good. I'm just offering this like as a person who has Just you know being older like you know. What i mean is like well. Here's the thing. Older music is failing. It's not like this. Music is failing. It's people who are my age. They're failing their writing. I just wish lyrics for older. People weren't all just broken poetry junk right like you know what i mean. I feel like this this kind of lyrics. This livio rodriguez is my. I liked this rodriguez this. This sounds good. I like you. I wish just this. Oliver rodriguez i only radio. I saw your email thirty seconds for this show. So i just i just i just think that actually it's more of a failure of music be being made by people my age. It which is just like sort of like rem type lyrics dislike broken forever. Like i want to hear so chris. I just like lyrics. That are so okay. Like i'm sane. Olivia rodriguez out here. Like fucking days. You've you did all this shit. We did it to fuck you talking about. So how would you write this more like direct blow nail on the head form of song lyric writing for your for your era for your people right now. 'cause you said where's my album like that. Well as i was saying. I just read about like health. Get your steps in you know Drink coffee too late. Falling loves out of the question. Sex drive anymore so gonna love out the question. That's just such a powerful message for and it's just love is not a love is not as important as europe's right i just wish there was more There's just a lot of bourgeois adult pop music right now this just about like. I don't know fake spirituality and like you know it's like i would say that the main topic of adult music now is like mindfulness or whatever became a buddhist in malibu or some shit. I'm actually all about this stuff. Except i just wish there was more of it in a way like more. I'm just tired of the breakup stuff. That's all i mean. I i love i mean we got taylor. Swift does good stuff. I'm also suspicious of these weasels. These white weasels like whoever this antonoff and this niagara and who are these people. And why are they somehow. Why are they in charge. Wise niagara named i and rodriguez named second on all these songs because that is important in songwriting. That means grows the main songwriter. So why are these. Why are these weasley white men involved in all these Womens are anyway. it's not just women there's just weasley white men with like kind of like like cute haircuts running around and i'm suspicious of that as a bald fifty two year old. You're like now. I'm supposed these guys switched. I'm doing my best to hang in there and this conversation. But i really do dig that. I actually did what she's doing. I think that i can't reload. I don't think i like lyrics about fucking felix. Yeah no way. Was this conversation ever setup for anyone to disagree or anything like that. But i'm saying we all have our perspectives. Years is like what i what i will fucking really break up songs. I'm just like yeah get more literal. You know 'cause. I like listening to the radio you know. I just wish there were more songs actually about relationships but just different kinds. There's just a lot of like relationship stuff about fuck that person and fuck that person in person fucked me over and house. That's like sort of you know just as a lot of that usually found out. Almost every break-up was my fault. You know not not you know. I think everybody like when they're younger thinks the other person was totally at original tired of tired of that. Because that's not true. It's like when i go to a and guys talk about ex-wives if their wives were a pre existing thing that they had nothing to do with it. They're like four connects war. I right right like didn't you ask her to marry really into that person. I know that especially on the the line of like there's more to life than relationships right. You're going to go through so many other different types of things that there are actually songs right about that. We need guidance. through you. know like us launches. A seat at the table really helps me get through all of the trump presidency. I feel you in just being in love or being fucked but either way. But i think albums are all their snapshots right like no one usually define your entire career off the one album. Some sure like next thing you know in twenty years time a on this trajectory live your rigo. We'll be talking about wellness out and it'll be like again. It'll be like guys. Make sure you head space to get yourself a little relief and your faith adam. How did they do this. Like it's charting you perverted. I just think everybody should do a very deep investigation of why everybody every pop musician over thirty as out in the desert joshua tree. What's happening. I don't know they got to be in the woods with a deer in the bear. The real hey. That's what i'm talking about strings. I know why they want to be out of joshua tree. Because there's nobody out there so they can feel like they're you know. The king man remember when morrison went down to mexico and sixty five. Take that anyway would that note. We'll end the show right there please. Y'all make sure you check out chris's twitch show which is not going to be tonight. It will be tomorrow to market. He's going to be doing a huge publicity. Stunt at disneyland on tuesday but chris thanks so much for joining us man working people follow you and watch you know all that you can Yeah thank you You do a better plug for my show than i do. it's it's called cobra. Got me like and on twitch. Every tuesday usually which would be tonight. But it's actually tomorrow. This week is going to disneyland and It's on six thirty Pacific every tuesday night cobra got me like except for wednesday this week and then i'm at the crofton show on twitter and ethic crofton show on instagram. And i write my advice. Call called the advice king and you can go. Listen the my first solo record low. It's me on all platforms check out. Some of is hits like got my back feeling like hell. Yeah you wanna hear me you to hear my super. All songs are about bringing break broken up with. I can't believe i'm going to be so fucking finish. Please use cleaner such a hypocrite. Almost up your brooklyn the thing though. I will say that. I blame myself. But i think that's the that's the there's only one way in the writings. And that's my guarantee you bookie kill only one white guy and help. I'm donna gray. Chris twitter or social posts. Something you like that you wanna shut off fuck. I always forget this part. Man is i love i say god damn it like the oldest man in the world just in general. I'm just going to say. I like twitter. I love it in general. It's really good talking about endorsement for you. Chris thank you so much joel. Thank you for helping me host today. Where can people find follow. You just listen to you. Read your takes your musings like that. Wonderful perspective into the album took side. That went on for five minutes. Definitely gonna take so long. That's gonna come every time. Do about something i'm passionate about. This is gonna be ready to go. You can find over the internet at dwelling week. It's j. o. E. l. e. m. o. n. i q. u. e. one of the tweets. I've really been digging. Don't updates media posted four count them. Four separate photos tyco. Itt tech thomson and ortiz. I can't remember her first name. Y'all if you know you know making out it's great taika shooting the next were tesla's obviously in it because she's great. I think tiger are kind of connected romantically. They're looking out to you. Rita ora recent. Oh my god bless you. Rita ora rita ora is. They're being hop hop sir. I loved it. And then at michelle's detest this phone right now. Fifteen is calls from bree larson. This is the queer pollyanna. I am looking for trying to break it all down. All of that means but into beautiful. Full pro is a gift from the pride. God's okay this is what the games are looking for this kind of right here. It's beautiful shaima thereto or a while. Surprisingly i know what that is. I've seen that picture of a kiss between that old director. And you and i look haircut. Probably yeah so. I remember the longest man. Like what's reed organ. Talk about being black and my oh. She's albanian okay. I feel that we were all there mile. I tell you what's going on with rita ora. Hey but either way. Shout out to you rita. We love to see it. let's see some tweets that i like a couple of tweets. I like first. One is from jessica. Alice at baddest man with embassy tweeted a good way. To tell elder millennials from younger. Ones is to shriek sing biggest. Come from and then see what happens. Next one from dana donnelly or yes at dana d. o. n. l. y. Dana donnelly tweeted very on par with the discussion. We just had. When i was twenty three. I thought my ex was a diabolical super villain who ruined my life in a cold calculated way but now i'm twenty six and i realized he was actually just a guy of average intelligence who simply didn't really give a shit about me yet yeah When last one at tony underscore for our seven tweeted. I wasn't productive at all during the pandemic but it was actually my first pandemic so i think that's fine Yeah i think that's okay. Don't worry about that okay. Don't get on yourself too much. You can find me at miles of gray on twitter and instagram. also check out the other show Four twenty fiancee. Also on twitch twitch dot tv slash four twenty day fiance and will be ten on this. I also go to disneyland. Check that out At four twenty pm pacific you can find us at daily zeitgeist on twitter at vide. These guys on instagram. we've gotta facebook fan page. We've got a website daily cases. Check it out. We got that's posted episodes and our footnotes along with the song that we're gonna ride out on and that track is going to be a little bit of a remix a little bit of a mix of like the temptations but if they were in kingston and You know maybe they were doing a little rock steady vibe This is called my girl the temptations song. But it's a remix by nick. It's nick bikes rock steady. Mix and it's just amazing how malleable temptations are with a little bit of reggae backing. So check this track out. Be in the footnotes And yeah like the production of iheartradio for more podcast. Check with iheartradio app or apple. Podcasts just come. Check this out and see later on today for the trending episode until then peace and blessings. We'll see you tomorrow by eight. Thank you they. Gang hayes miles. There's nothing more satisfying the making a meal with food. You've grown in your own garden. And bonnie plants spent the last century helping folks like you grow their own. 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