18 Burst results for "Mcgeorge Bundy"
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on The Lawfare Podcast
"And it's not clear that we wanted to break that door in the sense that what happens would pump. Peyot goes to baghdad. Do we really want to revive idea. That killing a high of a government with whom we're not formally at war in a third country is okay. I think not and the other thing was in stretching lee meaning of just Well if of the a self defense Which should be a relate to imitates fret and we're clearly wasn't an imminent threat that was revenge. there was a fear of some indeterminate. Future threat but it certainly wasn't imminent threat and do we really want to stretch that Meaning of self defense. Sandra article fifty one of the to the point where it becomes meaningless so you could say that among the consequences you have to consider. Are the consequences. For the system of rules so you know the philosophers talk about act consequential than rule consequential ism act consequentialist. Is you take the exact act you kill this guy. Baghdad and the iranians were turned therefore good rule. Consequentialist said you did damage to assist him of rules. Which which there were several that you were very important and you might have been able to do this by another means. So that's why i would say that okay. good So you have this a checklist. You holiday scorecards are so negative gets good is a six factors scorecard that you used to raise it. Basically six criteria under which you judge the morality president's election foreign policy so quickly walked three to the criteria and tell us why relevant throwing e on the moral vision. It seems to be the most presidents have a a state things that are good may be very rare in democracy for leader. Deficiently state is bad intentions. But the the statement of what you're trying to accomplish is important but then the question next question is what about your emotional intelligence in how you're Twist that so the actual motives are quite different. From what you stated. So if you example a both johnson and kennedy Said that they were aiming to preserve south vietnamese from totalitarian communism. I'd think was a good intention. But the question of when when you stay in there and lead to having five hundred sixty five thousand american troops there and fifty eight thousand merican deaths that raises a different question and mcgeorge. Bundy said that kennedy cared. His motive was to appear smart. And so he thinks bundy thought kennedy would have gotten out if he'd been reelected in sixty four instead of assassinated. He said johnson's motive was not appear a coward and because he was so afraid of Coward even though he had grave doubts about the war knew it was destroying his great society. He went and escalated as he did because he couldn't face up to he didn't have the emotional intelligence to face up to being thought of his howard. So that the important point about the role of character provide character and foreign policy. So you're an oh. I call it emotional intelligence. I mean they can you master deep emotional needs in johnson's case insecurity and he couldn't and that twisted his his intentions. So the voters were rather mixed. Okay prudence purposes important because it relates to this point in just war theory of a reasonable prospect of success. And if you are not prudent you can set extraordinarily glamorous idealistic goals but if they are imprudent goals then you can lead people to disastrous consequences vice a. Let's let's walk across. This tight rope might be wonderful. We could walk across the tight rope across the street out there. But i know damn well that neither of us going to make it and when we fall down in front of a truck on the street and kill That imprudent goal that i set. Which led you walk across aaron fall down get killed that. That's immoral what leads. President semi president exquisitely attuned to consequences in political repercussions. What leads them to act. Prudently acting imprudently often goes with of two things ideological blindness or being blinded by this was moral skin of a bad effect. And i also What i call lack of contextual iq which little different for emotional iq emotional iq is to manage your own emotional needs contextual iq means to appraise the situation very carefully or is aware put in. I guess to do due diligence. And when you don't due diligence and have that consequences. I think In the it's called couple negligence this so the third factor is used force. And you focus on as a lawyer. When i think of as the houston bello factors proportionality distinction. Things like that. But you end you. Measure president by the extent to which he is basically proportionate action it achieving is. Yes see again. The the principle of discrimination of not attacking noncombatants is has very ancient roots. Mayton if you go back to the bible. Thou shalt kat kill and augustine Wrestling with this in the fourth century. You know he said if you if you don't defend yourself goodwill perish from the earth At only the e four lane but once the threats not imitate the soldier puts down his gone in holds up his hands. You can no longer killing. There's not the the imminent threat and so noncombatants starting with soldier just surrender all the way back to the women children. Back home are illegitimate targets Now there is collateral damage in bubble effect so forth but they're still a basic principle. It's important the proportion who is also important. So if i say look. There's a terrorist in that parliament building. And i'm going to have an f sixteen drop over drone drop a bomb big bob that building and turns out. Yes you kill the terrorists but you also killed seventy three families. That's disproportional and so those two things discrimination portion have come down to us from these early origins from saint augustine down through international panamax are involved in geneva conventions and the uniform code of military justice in there they remain important means so but i wonder why when you're talking about use of forces another whole set of questions that's what we think of it as lawyers the rules that govern warfare rules in warfare is a hold on the set of questions that's Just war tradition about when it's appropriate to go to war in the first place right and he didn't discuss that as much of the book and i'm wondering especially about humanitarian intervention which is both legally controversial domestically and internationally so. How does that slice of the war. Well i didn't spend a lot of time on just cause of war sort of malcolm. Aided that roaring to this question of intentions and motives At because. I don't think there's an easy answer to it. I mean. should you have done more in rwanda to prevent glenavon wandered prevents the genocide. Think you make an argument. Yes but it didn't have to be sending the eighty second airborne it could have been making efforts to get african troops of backup the un peacekeepers. You wouldn't have saved all the toot but you could have saved some okay..
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on Omnibus! With Ken Jennings and John Roderick
"And some water. The water was on fire. Yeah and i was mesmerized by it. As a child i mean. I'm definitely the product of magazine ads of the early seventies selling liquor and cigarettes. I mean i can tell just by your outfit in your and your grooming. You're a product of those. That's right you're going to roll up your sweater sleeves and go toseh- frisbee and smoke newport. It was all. I knew in fact about the wider world. I remember in a in alaska in the seventies pouring through magazines at these very sophisticated. People you know they're the camel ads. Where the guy with the land rover was was crossing the darien gap. Smoking camels the whole way. He seemed cool. He always had a blond mustache and then There were the cowboys. I think it was always people on boats but there were very sophisticated people to tuxedos who were drinking and smoking and laughing. They were having such a good time. And i wanted to have a good time. That was from the age of successful. People are wearing tuxedos. Yes all the time. What am i a farmer. There was exactly. There was like a jeopardy ad from the early nineties. I think were alex. Trebek's dressed in a tuxedo would go around and do heroic things like he he. He would save a woman from a tied to a railroad track. Really and he'd be wearing a tuxedo. And this is obviously a post. James bond kind of view of the world. Yeah but just the idea that people doing. Glamorous will always have tuxedos on is very funny to me because really i what are you gonna do like return. The rental wants the lady is off the railroad tracks. It's it's no you own the tuxedo. You own the tuxedo. You're not gonna put it onto to have a adventure on a train track. The first time. I ever saw tortoiseshell glasses you know in the seventies everybody was wearing weird square metal frame glasses and there was one of these cigarette ads of a bunch of very cool looking preppy people in tuxedos laughing and one of the guys had round tortoiseshell glass. Now this was before the eighties. Where were they became ubiquitous fashion statements. This was when they were still like weird yet to be mcgeorge bundy to be wearing these. Cool tortoiseshell glasses and. I saw them in a magazine ad and i said i don't know who that is. I don't know what that is. But that's me that's me and i got some. And then when when they started to become popular in the early eighties. I was like who are you interlopers. You were there early. Yeah you faker my sexual preferences mcgeorge bundy right. If you if you didn't aspire to be the secretary of state in the johnson administration then you don't have any right to wear these glasses the koya hoga river fire. You know by the way that you can pretty much any vowel for the first syllable of yoga webster's recommends cuyahoga i followed by cuyahoga schwa- call yoga and koyo hoga koi kara. Hi ho see your options. Are i And oh it's confusing because the origin of the word cuyahoga caught collier. Hogan is Is in considerable dispute. So i can see where the i mean on one hand you can see where the pronunciation problem comes. Because most of the time it's a case of of somebody mispronouncing native name or you know or italian name in this case Depending on what you think is of the origin of of the name. Why native american. It's now it's white people just arguing about which mistranslation of a native american word. It is one of the one of the potential sources of the name is. There's a mohawk word that sounds not that similar to co but that means crooked river and the cojocaru river is a crooked river in in that it started. The headwaters of the river are not very far from from its ultimate terminus. Oh it just zigzags lombard street in in the outskirts of cleveland or something. Kind of hooks like Like a raccoon penis bone. What's the mohawk word for raccoon peanuts. The historical record is silent on what the put the mohawk word is. But when when so it starts it starts up kind of allegheny forest and then around erie and then it swings down around and then comes back out in the lake. The the problem with having a mohawk origin is the mohawk never lived anywhere around there. Would they ever. Maybe one of them took a trip. Who was just impressed by the crookedness of the river so he has to go home and be like. Hey you know the thing about cleveland is. They've got this crooked river grind and all the all the people that lived around there were like a great word yoga and their cake. You're steve was talking about like we've just got straight rivers straight hoeger right but this one is a hook. Oh god the The seneca lived More closely more proximate and they have a word sort of vaguely similar sounding not really at all that effectively means jawbone or a raccoon jawbone non raccoon jawbone but just you know it means hook john that would match the shape of the sort of looks like the jawbone own of not of a human but of a job a panther but without the teeth but all that seems somewhat. These things go through french and spanish and then yup did. I ever do my favorite one of these on the show. Which is the theory that wisconsin and oregon may come from the same word really like. There's some map that says the word is like raccoon sant or something and that became wisconsin. But then somebody will wrote reckon sant on a map. They put a hyphen because like it. They ran out of room after the end and somebody's didn't see the sant and just thought it was reagan and they were like okay. Al west is oregon. Got it so. It's possible that wisconsin an organizer deep down the same. They're just the same the same state they got the tillamook cheese versus Teach kurds she's heads And other than that. It's just exactly him. Knowing both states. A little oregon. Better than wisconsin but knowing wisconsin a little. I don't see any resemblance between oregon wisconsin dairyland. Yeah but oregon's not really. I mean they make tillamook cheese and ice cream. They make it from sea lion milk milk. The sea land that that factory is like four hundred yards from the beach. Like i don't know there's not and the mountains right about it. I don't know how you get a bunch of cows in there. You don't go to wisconsin for the beach though the wisconsin. I definitely go to when i think of the beach. I think of lake michigan but lake erie is another great beach. There is a village of oregon and wisconsin. So you can go to oregon wisconsin however there is no place called. Wisconsin in oregon. I'm sorry to say although oregon is maybe just another way of spelling wisconsin and know classic. Rose bowl matchup. I guess where her well. But there's another tribe that actually. I interrupted you before the third and possibly the best theory this. I always put the likely online. This isn't even the third are at. This isn't even the last. It is the third of but the wyan dot indian tribe actually lived there. Okay this one i like. And they were the only the only made of population that actually lived in the region and they have a word that sounds not really like koga that means small land and it is a river the absence of land but i mean the river hooks around sort of like encompasses a sort of little small land. The way that you're always know if it's right is if the words just means place in the late. The local tribe called it river river place and then the final suggestion because because on like a lot of this it sort of feels like oh these are all later some Some farmers adopted it because somebody know slurred at one time but the iroquois that live sort of in the region are actually called the yoga tribe. Oh i've heard that and you actually is extremely close. Seems like the closest one of all the noise. I won't want my car horns to the guy but the word koya hoga in its in its present. Form appears on french maps of the region. Like all the way back before the colonies even got there okay. It's centuries old. Whatever whatever the game of telephone was it ended in a year. That may have started with sixteen. Yeah it was a year a long time before there were any mennonites in the region In fact the cojocaru river very briefly in in seventeen maybe five was the western boundary of the united states. And then we see wisconsin oregon. Yeah it was the pacific ocean of its day to hogan they were like no further and then the next person got there and crossed the river and on they went i would have been more like the first guy i think when you think about yourself because of course you're you're Four forebears kept going and continued to keep going on..
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on Skeptiko - Science at the Tipping Point
"You know the station. That's he's the nephew of that guy. So these guys come from kind of a high bourgeoisie. Rob like western robber-baron cut back since stuff and so i think he met aquino's moment stanford and then you know he was a conscientious objector in world war two i. I wouldn't say. I generally think he really did believe in pacifism wasn't a secret nazi sympathizer but aquino's mom on the other hand. She's spent the bulk of the nineteen thirties in nazi germany and didn't really ever nothing. We've found indicates that she had too many bad things to say about it and then she has. This son who becomes a goes into the military becomes a sigh up. Geiger requests to go to vietnam and probably loved. Being involved in the phoenix program joins a church of satan. The temple of set his mom joined the temple of set after founded it and and so it really made her head spin of like how like 'cause she was involved a radio show on kpfa for years like a book report. He claims that she was the first one to introduce the novel. The boris pasternak novel doctor zhivago to american audiences after it was translated into english. And you can go on dot gov and see the whole operation around doctor zhivago was like the was heavily invested in both popularizing it in the west and getting prince of at done in europe in russian to smuggle back into the soviet union so it was like a cold war sigh up and akina says she was the first one to do a review of it like right when it was published and quotas introduce it to american audiences. So there's that but it's like you know she's hanging out with all the lefty hippy. Bay area people and then she didn't. She seemed to be totally cool with her son. Joining the military at the height of the vietnam war. And go you know what i mean like. There's something off there. It doesn't make any sense now of course. Kpfa also started getting money from the ford foundation. No relation by the way betty ford. She's not one of those ford but the ford foundation. I think it went. It might have been under the control of mcgeorge bundy richard. This'll guys who are involved in bay of pigs and of itself. We're funding this lefty alternative radio station in the bay area. And that's something we've talked about in a lot of context like the covert funding like you said. Gloria steinem and cia like the funding of the counterculture not not just the version of it but sometimes creating entities whole cloth or you know basically sponsoring things that are so heavily infiltrated that they end up serving the kind of overall ideological purposes of kind of the the us empire if you will in. It's like kind of cold..
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on TIME's Top Stories
"How do you feel when you visit the vietnam memorial on the mall with the names of every american killed in the war. Bob said we were wrong terribly wrong. And we owe it to future generations to explain why jeff recalls that i was already gathering my papers to leave when mcnamara said that and i- sputtered something akin to. That's it the release of the book in march nineteen ninety five was explosive. It became the leading news story in the country for days because of the level of outrage it provoked many people felt that mcnamara silence about the war for quarter-century disqualified his right to explain it and to explain himself. There were many reasons largely inaccessible. Why bob had not openly discussed his views earlier although those who knew him well in were aware of his anguish over the war and saw that he would tear up in talking about it. He was not of a generation that was given to openly sharing feelings preferring instead to have a few alcoholic pops toward off emotion. National security adviser. Mcgeorge bundy whose role in the war was comparable to mcnamara's escaped ignominy by maintaining what was regarded as a dignified silence and was hailed for his progressive leadership of the ford foundation. If there were any people who saw the revelations in mcnamara's memoirs is an act of courage literally no other major architect of the war ever admitted it was terribly wrong. They were drowned out by the attacks. Bob's tendency toward rhetorical bluster meant that his public appearances were insufficiently contrite to satisfy his critics still the book immediately went to number one on bestseller lists at an appearance at harvard's kennedy school of government where the atrium was packed with reporters and television cameras on hand to gauge. The response near the end of the evening of vietnam vet began to harangue bob to what seemed the approval of much of the audience mcnamara snapped. Shut up my son. Evan and undergraduate at harvard was sitting next to me and squeezed my knee hard reflecting the tension. He felt with me and the rest of the room very early. The next morning there was a knock on my door at the charles hotel and there was bob in a raincoat and running shoes preparing to take a brisk walk along the charles river. I know what makes people so angry. He said but i to do this. I need to talk about the war and its lessons so we can prevent anything like it happening again. Bob continued to travel flying alone from city to city. Given the level of indignation the book had caused. We offered him security. If he wanted it he did not one of the moments that stand out to me is emblematic of the distance. Bob had traveled came when i introduced him to david. Harris a celebrated antiwar protester of the nineteen sixties. Who had been president of the student body at stanford burned his draft card and gone to prison times. Books had commissioned harris to go to vietnam and write a book exploring his impressions of the country and his own experiences..
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on Democracy Now! Audio
"Six hundred protesters were arrested. Many held at rfk stadium. Seven thousand people were arrested on may third alone as the nixon administration place. Twenty thousand troops and officers in the capital. Keep protest organisers included rennie davis and dave dellinger of the people's coalition for peace and justice jerry coffin of the war resisters league then star in la coffman later wrote that the protests quote influence grassroots activism for decades to come laying the groundwork for a new kind of radicalism decentralized ideologically diverse propelled by direct action unquote. Protesters were urged to form. Affinity groups engage in civil disobedience. One affinity group at the may day protests included historians howard's in maryland young the linguist known chomsky and dan ellsberg. This was just shortly before ellsberg would become the nation's most famous whistle blower after the publication of the pentagon papers. Well on saturday may day. I interviewed dan. Ellsberg an nsa whistle blower edward snowden as part of virtual conference at the university of massachusetts amherst titled truth descent and the legacy of daniel ellsberg. We'll be playing extended excerpts of that conversation on future broadcast and you can go to democracy now dot org for the length of the whole two day conference. But today we turn to daniel ellsberg who turned ninety on april seventh reflecting on those nine thousand. Nine hundred seventy one protests a half a century ago he began by talking about another major protests the hundred and sixty nine moratorium and the war in vietnam to click to the war movement was in the fall of one thousand nine hundred sixty nine. They chose to call a moratorium which was a weekday stoppage in order to have speeches against war withdrawal from work and from school. And if you couldn't with you or a black armband to school in fact a vice president agnew daughter award black armband and was confined to her house for the next two months and one of the bitter buttons is. The war was free. Kim agnew but are the factors. Two million people weekday not a bright sunny saturday football weekend. Saturday put a weekday took off from work and school in march and what they did not know at that. Time was the nixon on talking. Now october fifteenth nineteen sixty nine. An had made threats of nuclear weapons which were knocked bluffs. Not sure three was going to enact going know when we're third when another strike and by the way the cold moratorium because they decided the general strike which is what it was was too provocative to leftist to inflammatory called it a moratorium not business as usual that kept nixon from using nuclear weapons and escalating and sixty nine. It was the most effective. I was telling credit tune word. We know our our hero. Why carsley for both of us. She's my hero for sure. And i was mentioning tour with her scrapes that she was leading which were week.'. Strikes during friday you know schoolchildren against climate. I told her the history of the moratorium on should think about what they plan to do. Which was one day. The first month two days the second one three days a third ones were not just one day time but an escalating kind of thing with she hasn't yet done with the pandemic but i'm gonna go back to her with this notion so anyway the idea will strike is is the basic notion and that was very it was the most effective action. The credit gun creepers themselves had as i looked on. I didn't expect much because they ended in sixty eight. They didn't tell us what nixon was doing. And my major message was contrary to believe after the election sixty eight this war is not ending. He is not ending it. It's going. it's going to get larger. That was what i had in mind have documents because the people who have ham and knew they were friends of mine not put the moat as one of them. Roger moore said when he left over cambodia but without talking this without a press conference. He said to me leader. We're sure to phone open the safe. He's talking about the threats of nuclear weapons. I've just described which were prevented. Not by him. He was against them but he had seen the nuclear targets scheduled for the fall of nineteen. Sixty-nine and which the people in that stretch didn't even know about when they were doing they didn't know live. He said we should have thrown. Open the safe and screen regarding murder because that's exactly what it was. The day of the mass moratorium. Jay is actually quickly anniversary of the may. First nineteen seventy-one massive rally in washington. Dc and you. You're part of an affinity group you. The affinity grew with howard zinn and noam trump's gay. They chose you as the commander of their affinity group. Because they said you had been in vietnam. You're marine you know. That's that's what a judge recent perceived me as taking over that sergeants role at say mainly it came to say i'll tell you what i think they're referring to. We're sitting in the middle. The theory of rainy davis who just recently died had said they won't stop the war. We'll stop the government. This is going to be my first correct seventy-one the jets had been throwing their medals or the plants were crucial time. The police were very powerful image and medal of honor or another thing and we were there. I expected we in jail. I had with me a book that was very unfortunately barbara deming diem. I g revolution in equilibrium. A book. that kind of converted me on non violence of gandhian nonviolence and. I thought well if they have a book in jail which they never do it turns out. I'll have this with derision jail so when we go out of four in the morning gordon and taxi drivers volunteer to take us off. Mostly black actually. And what do we pay. Nothing no problem. We're on your side of. We went out to fourteen street. And the first person seen is spock and barbara deming whom i recognized so i got into shine my book. I had this book signed by him. By heroes at this point okay later. More howard. zinn trump's key maryland young. Fred grant one. Mitchell goodman is when a couple of others more casually are sitting in the middle of constraints and i think what they're referring to as non coms leadership here was that is to police came quarter at about nine talk in the morning at right angles with a his helmet down a recall. Here's the visors. Coming up the other with the helmet gone with a big club in mace. The came out is at right angles. And i thought it's too early. Who just got here. Let's not in the not in this action right now. So i said let's go. That was li i. I took that an issue for drugs moves so we got up and we moved away and one police. This sounds like a movie right. Might mack senate actually did shoot the other police in the face with mace and his helmet was rolling on the ground in the and the club fell on the ground. Say they get the picture coming out and they were so determined to come down his at one time that they came down on each other and then we went through the rest of the day. We were saying they ended up. Why risk risking thirteen thousand akron after the action had basically been ruben and they put them in. Rfk's -ironically rfk stadium and later much later because they didn't have records on any of them. What they had done was just cleaned through georgetown. Picking up every young person many of whom were children of congress persons which was to their favor in the end. So the tomorrow on that got a little compensated later. And i went on the action. Having been broken we had lunch with i f stone and then i went to new york gnome. Went to a veterans so coffee shot someone in texas howard got arrested. Linder that afternoon for asking collusion. What are you doing when he was meeting. Young christian georgetown richard howard putting the stadium and i went to hear mcgeorge bundy at the council on for a really who used to work for in the clinic. Gone i about the war series of lectures interesting. Because i'd already given the pentagon papers to she and until the mac saying this the truth about these lectures saying is going to be coming ago. He was saying that congress hadn't been lied to. And you know that was no intention to receive any longer so that was the mood and it was a mood. It was a time when a month later when we were putting out the pentagon papers old that the people working with a scar elber wits giannakou channel had to do to get people to find places to stay while the fbi was hunting fours and we were still putting four additions to the pentagon papers. All you have to do to find a place to stay profile was to ask somebody with woman hair. Everybody did men and women had been people and say we're doing something that may help and work small trans and maybe quite literally interest. Are you willing to help. Everybody said yes right away. There was a movement within and there was a movement of young people to filter what was happening in the world. Own rage says well. We started with a civil liberties was wrong. Had to change and they were ready to with their careers and their lives. We need that. No that's daniel ellsberg. Speaking on saturday may day at a virtual conference at the university of massachusetts amherst titled truth descent and the legacy of daniel ellsberg. I moderated the event with him and nsa whistle blower edward snowden. We'll be playing extended excerpts of the conversation soon special thanks to the university of amherst department of special collections and university archives at the w e b do boys library. When we come back we look at how big pharma's dispatched over a hundred lobbyists to block generic covid nineteen vaccines and to preserve their intellectual property rights at the world trade organization despite the surgeon cova deaths in india and latin america. Stay with us.
The Lady Bird Johnson recordings and what they tell us
"Thursday may fourteenth. Virginia in mid may is bombed for any troubles. No silent spring here. The green archer fresh bring leaves almost met over the rutted country. Would occasionally you would see a bright. Little chipmunk perched on radio fans it's been a bad week in washington lady. Bird finds herself in the rare uncomfortable position of being the subject of some pretty scathing press. So she's fled. Dc to get out of the spotlight and come to hunt. Land and estate in middleburg virginia about an hour outside of washington. Lbj and lady. Bird had made high profile tours of appalachia. I mainly on poor whites for one of the administration's first initiatives it's war on poverty and they've quoted massive press coverage tv radio and prince. Johnson continues the president's attack on poverty as she travels to the economically depressed areas of kentucky. The forty five counties making up this area present one of the nation's worst pictures poverty several times. Mrs johnson holzer motorcade degreed local school children who have gathered along. The roadside ladybird has been a public face for this up until now the media has loved her. There's actually no vice president at the moment because lbj was the bp under kennedy and according to the constitution there's no automatic replacement for him lbj's going to announce a running mate at the convention in august at the press corps. Traveling with the first lady has started referring to her as mrs. vice president. How serious is that. i don't know not fairy. But they've clearly picked up on something real about the way. She works with lyndon in a typical piece. Editorial in the lexington herald in kentucky asks. Why not an lbj and lbj ticket. Look no farther lyneham. Your big problem of running mate for this fall is now solved. It's none other than that. Charming texan. lady. Bird johnson ladybird lasted off but all this recognition has also made her a target. Read the papers and absorb the shock. Aptitude republican congressman's visit to my tenants that i pogo county. A couple of gop congressman decided to take their own poverty. Tour to alabama where ladybird has almost four thousand acres used for cotton and timber farming that she inherited from her mother's family. The congressmen go see lady bird tenants and put out some grainy black and white photos showing their ramshackle conditions tin roof shacks with collapsing foundations. No running water basically. She's being made to look like a slum lord and those optics as they say in politics are terrible. It could have been worse. I've got to thank some way to turn it into. A constructed in ladybird been in public life for decades. And she's savvy about the press. She understands the story could deal them real political damage so her first constructive step was to avoid the press by getting out of town. That's what's brought her to hunt land back in. Washington linden's really struggling. His civil rights. Bill is stuck. In congress is war counseled dean rusk mcgeorge bundy and robert mcnamara all holdovers from kennedy are pressing him on vietnam and he has a raging toothache and i was almost asleep. A little after tway out. He called me. It was a sad happy. Talk large about the alabama tenants and about his restive desire to seek a way out of the burdens. He carries but the real source of his pain. He's actually thinking about not running. November linden is fundamentally insecure. He knows he wasn't elected that he's just there because kennedy was assassinated. He doesn't believe he has a mandate and he doesn't think he can win despite an approval rating of seventy four percent. You could argue that. This is all in his head but part of him. A big part just wants out ladybird invited. Lbj's to longtime doctors to drive out to hunt one for dinner Linden had a major heart attack at heartland almost ten years ago in nineteen fifty five. It's never really out of mind for either of them so at dinner that night with the doctors. She'd heard what they thought about his fitness. And we're going to give him a thorough medical going. The next morning and night we only talked about the psychological aspects. I don't know though that either one really understands the depth of his pain winning af faces up to the possibility of sending many thousands. American boys vietnam both ladybird linden can see the writing on the wall. Vietnam could easily derail his presidency. Their ambitions for civil rights the sweeping great society programs. He's just laid out for his doctors leave to go back. Washington bird hands them. An envelope marked personal but its contents are political to on the phone the night before linden had asked her to set out the pros and cons. I wrote at for london about a nine page analysis of what i thought he situation was. I she types out that press release. It's a bit of psychology. This is what it would feel like to announce you're not running. Then on a spiral bound steno pad ladybird writes those nine pages laying out his options This letter or what. I think is more accurately. Her strategy memo is been sitting at the lbj library forever. Pretty much overlooked by historians.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on KQED Radio
"Ah, whether the Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara came in with a program to build 1200 ICBMs and Kennedy's National security advisor McGeorge Bundy said. Look, this estimate this this need for 1200. This was calculated on the basis of the missile gap projections. Now we know they don't have so many. Let's cut this back to 600. And the reason is that we build 1200. The Russians were sitting there with four. They might think that we're developing the ability to launch a first strike and they're going to respond. I have missile buildup of their own, and we're going to be stuck in an arms race on McNamara's response was Well look, The Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted 2000. I've cut it to 1200. That's all that I can cut it without just fomenting rebellion among the military ranks. This is the best I can do. And Kennedy, who at the time believed very much and giving his Cabinet secretaries leeway. Let let McNamara win the argument. So in 1962 Kennedy faces a really crisis the Soviets are building Nuclear missiles in Cuba, You know, just off the coast of Florida when I was a kid. I remember this. I remember seeing maps in my newspaper, which showed the range of the missiles, which included my house in Corpus Christi, Texas. There was a lot of attention here. Yeah, I remember this, too. By the way, Yeah. So Kennedy and advisers had to figure out what to do and whether the wrong move would trigger a nuclear war. It was resolved. But how close did we come to going to war when we came very close, and you know, for many years there was a myth about how it was resolved. And even now The real story is not that well known even though we have capes of all 13 days of Kennedy and his advisers sitting around pondering this. On the third day of the crisis, which was a 13 day crisis, Kennedy is kind of mauling. You think I Khrushchev seems to have got himself in a trap. Maybe we need to give him a face saving gesture. Maybe we should trade the missiles that we have in Turkey for his missiles in Cuba. Nobody pays any attention to this. On the Saturday when the last day of the crisis. Khrushchev issues a telegram Proposing a deal. We'll get rid of our missiles in Cuba. You get rid of your missiles in Turkey. And Kennedy says, where this seems like a fair trade and everybody around the table. Is against this. Not just the generals, but all the civilians Bobby Kennedy, Robert McNamara, George Bundy. All these reasonable people. They're all against this war wreck NATO. This will undercut the church. This will wreck our credibility. Canady lets them talk. And he says, Well, you know, it seems to me now. This was on a Saturday. The war plan. We was going to start attacking the Cuban missile sites on the following Monday, Kennedy says. Well, you know, it seems to me that once we start doing this, we start doing 500 sorties a day against the missile sites and then invade the island, which was planned for the following Friday. Then the Russians would grab Berlin and if it's known that It's known that this proposal was on the table and we didn't take it. It's not going to be a good war. Well, the argument goes on. Kennedy secretly sends Bobby to make the deal with the Soviet ambassador. He kills six people about this. No. Unfortunately, one of the six people was not Vice President Lyndon Johnson, who when he became president after Kennedy was murdered. I thought that the myth that Kennedy himself put out that you know, we went. I bought eyeball of the Russians, and they blink was how it worked, and it heavily influenced his views about what to do in the Vietnam War, and many years later, make George Bundy Wrote in his memoir that It was a tragedy that we kept up this myth for so many years because it led to misperceptions and horrendous policies elsewhere by By which he meant Vietnam. But you know, there's one other thing about this that we've only learned more recently. It turned out, and this was not known at the time that the Russians had already installed nuclear warheads on some of those missiles. It also turned out that the Russians had secretly deployed 40,000 troops. To the island of Cuba to stave off a potential American invasion. So if Kennedy had succumb to all of his advisors and said, Yeah, you're right. We can't take this deal and gone ahead with the airstrikes gone ahead with the invasion. The Russians might very well have launched one of those missiles on warning and the small invasion force going into Cuba would have found themselves being repelled. By 40,000 Soviet trip. We would have been in a war with the Soviet Union. So, you know, One lesson of this is that who you elect us? President really does matter. Sometimes it doesn't. The fact that you have a lot of smart advisers doesn't necessarily seal the deal. Friend. Kaplan's book is the bomb Presidents Generals in the Secret History of Nuclear war. We'll take a break here and then we'll talk. Seymour, this is fresh air. This is fresh air and were speaking with a journalist Fred Kaplan. He has a new book about nuclear war planning. It's called the Bombe Presidents, Generals in the Secret History of Nuclear war. The president over the decades had to deal with this nuclear standoff with the Soviet Union. There were negotiations and reductions at times and crises. Ronald Reagan was known as a Cold War hawk. Of course, he wanted to deploy a this strategic defense initiative. This system that was designed to shoot missiles out of the year was Sina's. Very aggressive because it was a destabilizing But you right that that he was actually a secret nuclear abolitionist and kind of found a kinship with the Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. Tell us about that. What kind of Reagan turns out to be a much more complicated figure than then? I covered him as a journalist is much more complicated than a lot of people think he was a secret nuclear abolitionist. Many of his aides have said so sense and in fact, He might have been the only person alive who actually believed that the strategic Defense Initiative, also known as Star Wars really would work that would really service kind of an Astrodome. That would be, you know, shoot down every missile and therefore making nuclear weapons obsolete. But, yeah, he was also very distrustful of the Russians and very anti Communist. And so his first You wanted to meet with a Soviet leader, But as he put it several times they are kept dying on him. And then he met Gorbachev and met him in Geneva was in 1985. And their first round of talks. It's very tense. Reagan is complaining about their intervention in third World revolutions and garbage office, complaining that Star Wars is a secret for strike plan. And then they go for a walk along the lake, and they ducked into a cabin where Fire is blazing. And then this part one point Reagan leans over to Gorbachev. It's just the two of them in their translators. And he says You know if the United States was invaded by aliens from outer space Would would Russia come to our defence and garbage dumps it? Absolutely, and Reagan says. I feel the same way about you, and they worked out. They worked back in the conference Hall and the Secretary of State George Schultz, wrote later that the change in atmosphere was was probable that they were laughing and talking with each other as if they were old friends, and it was at that point. That they decided. Okay. We really have to start making some deals. T get rid of these nuclear weapons so You know, Reagan? I'm told that he was a big fan of this of this movie. The day the earth stood still 1951 about. Ah, guy comes from outer space. And tells the earth you have to stop playing with nuclear weapons. Otherwise you're going to get yourself is blown up and we'll have to come occupy you. So you don't Andi had a big effect on him. And that's how you saw things. He gave an address to the U. N once saying, If we were invaded by aliens from outer space, the tensions and rivalries between us here on Earth would look trivial by comparison. You know, on the one hand, this is kind of nutty, On the other hand. Hey, You know what? He's got a point. Maybe you have to look at things from 20 billion miles up to get this kind of perspective. So So did this good will lead to significant reductions in arms. And yes, it started to you might recall that Gorbachev and Reagan were both frustrated that their negotiators were not making much progress. So they met in record Vik, Iceland, and that was when Reagan and Gorbachev kind of spontaneously came to the conclusion that yes, let's get rid of all of our missiles all of our missiles, but then it hit a speed bump. Gorbachev demanded that in that one condition for this is that the United States would never test the strategic defense initiative weapons in space, it would remain a laboratory project. And Reagan refused to do that. So and it fell apart. So Soviets paranoia about this system, which wasn't going to work and Reagan's fantasy about this system prevented what very well could have been the end of the Cold War, the.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM
"The Soviet Union had four. IBM's not four or 500, but four So there was a missile gap, but we were way ahead. And yet the airforce kept pushing for more and more missiles because, well, you know, maybe they'll build more in the years to come. Right that this was an opportunity for Kennedy to rethink this. Yes, it wass and in fact, he had some White House staff members who were saying, look. Ah, whether Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara came in with a program to build 1200 ICBMs and Kennedy's National security advisor McGeorge Bundy said. Look, this estimate this this need for 1200. This was calculated on the basis. Of the missile gap projections. Now we know they don't have so many. Let's cut this back to 600. And the reason is that we build 1200. The Russians are sitting there with four. They might think that we're developing the ability to launch a first strike and they're going to respond. I have missile buildup of their own, and we're going to be stock in an arms race on McNamara's response was Well Look, The Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted 2000, I've cut it to 1200. And that's all that I can cut it without just fomenting rebellion among the military ranks. This is the best I can do. And Kennedy, who at the time I believe very much and giving his Cabinet secretaries leeway. Let let McNamara win the argument. In 1962. Kennedy faces a really crisis. The Soviets are building nuclear missiles in Cuba, You know, just off the coast of Florida when I was a kid. I remember this. I remember seeing maps in my newspaper, which showed the range of the missiles, which included my house in Corpus Christi, Texas. There was a lot of attention here. Yeah, I remember this, too. By the way, Yeah. So Kennedy and advisers had to figure out what to do and whether the wrong move would trigger a nuclear war. It was resolved. But how close did we come to going to war? Well, we came very close. And you know, for many years there was a myth about how was resolved. And even now, the real story is not that well known even though we have tapes Of all 13 days of Kennedy and his advisers sitting around pondering this On the third day of the crisis, which was a 13 day crisis. Kennedy is kind of mauling. He's saying I Khrushchev seems to have got himself in a trap. Maybe we need to give him a face saving gesture. Maybe we should trade the missiles that we have in Turkey for his missiles in Cuba. Nobody pays any attention to this. On the Saturday when the last day of the crisis. Khrushchev issues a telegram Proposing a deal. We'll get rid of our missiles in Cuba. You get rid of your missiles in Turkey. And Kennedy says, where this seems like a fair trade and everybody around the table. Is against this. Not just the generals, but all the civilians Bobby Kennedy, Robert McNamara, George Bundy. All these reasonable people. They're all against this war wreck NATO. This will undercut the Turks. This will record credibility. Kennedy lets them talk. And he says, Well, you know, it seems to me now. This was on a Saturday. The war plan. We was going to start attacking the Cuban missile sites on the following Monday. Kennedy says. Well, you know, it seems to me that once we start doing this, we start doing 500 sorties a day against the missile sites. And then invade the island, which was planned for the following Friday. Then the Russians or the grab Berlin and if it's known that It's known that this proposal was on the table and we didn't take it. It's not going to be a good war. Well, the argument goes on. Kennedy secretly sends Bobby to make the deal with the Soviet ambassador. He tells six people about this. No. Unfortunately, one of the six people was not Vice President Lyndon Johnson, who when he became president after Kennedy was murdered. I thought that the myth that Kennedy himself put out that you know we went I bought I bought with the Russians and they blinked was how it worked, and it heavily influenced his views about what to do in the Vietnam War, and many years later, make George Bundy Wrote in his memoir that It was a tragedy that we kept up this myth for so many years because it led to misperceptions and horrendous policies elsewhere by By which he meant Vietnam. But you know, there's one other thing about this that we've only learned more recently. It turned out, and this was not known at the time that the Russians had already installed nuclear warheads on some of those missiles. It also turned out that the Russians had secretly deployed 40,000 troops to the island of Cuba to stave off a potential American invasion. So if Kennedy had succumb to all of his advisors And said, Yeah, you're right. We can't take this deal and gone ahead with the airstrikes gone ahead with the invasion. The Russians might very well have launched one of those missiles on warning. And the small invasion force going into Cuba would have found themselves being repelled. By 40,000 Soviet trip, We would have been in a war with the Soviet Union. So, you know, One lesson of this is that who you elect us? President really does matter. Sometimes it doesn't. The fact that you have a lot of smart advisers doesn't necessarily seal the deal. Fred Kaplan's book is the bomb Presidents, Generals and the Secret History of Nuclear War. We'll take a break here and then we'll talk. Seymour. This is fresh air journalists. Yvonne Laddie has.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on C-SPAN Radio
"The United States would unleash its entire nuclear arsenal against every target in the Soviet Union the satellite nations of Eastern Europe and China even if China hadn't had any involvement in the war and it was estimated this would kill two hundred and eighty five million people no this wasn't just a maze planned this was approved by the joint chiefs of staff by president Eisenhower infected it kind of Eisenhower who was sort of a cheapskate I didn't want to spend a lot of money on conventional arms it was believed that the Soviets might make little incursions all over the place so he came up with a philosophy called massive retaliation the ideas anywhere the Russians go we respond in a matter of our own choosing and it was state policy in classified documents that is the armed conflict between the United States and the Soviet Union well then with the use of the U. S. nuclear weapons that was the policy Eisenhower it's not like he was a bloodthirsty maniac but Eisenhower thought that any war with the Soviet Union would go nuclear was inevitable and therefore he realized that what had to be done was to to turn a war from happening in the first place on the way to do that was to tell the Soviets in no uncertain terms that we will destroy your entire country if you do this and that would deter thanks then something happened in the early sixties the service develop their own nuclear arsenal with a very big that they had weapons that could strike us so this became a policy of suicide in the Serbian strangled in western Europe grabbed West Berlin and we responded by blowing up the Soviet Union they could blow up thus and that's when certain strategist first of all to start thinking about maybe we should have some conventional weapons and armies here and there so we don't have to go nuclear right away but they also thought about limited nuclear war Fred Kaplan his book the bomb the I get the well maybe if the war starts maybe we can just launch some weapons at their military forces and then tell them if you strike back against us will take the weapons we have left over and hit your cities now the people came up with this idea first I had serious doubts whether this was plausible they they thought that they had to bet on it they would that it would all go sky high from the outset but they figure there's a small chance that this might be able to be controlled let's go for and so president Kennedy comes into office with with this situation the war plan was still what was called to sign up sixty two you know the blow up everything gets involved in a in a crisis in Berlin the Russians are threatening by the end of the year we're taking over Berlin now most of you realize this but some of you do not listen to West Berlin it was a hundred miles inside East Germany it was a small enclave of freedom and democracy and there is no way of the Russians decided to occupy West Berlin take it over there was no way we can fight them with conventional weapons so the plan again was tough on leash everything and so there was discussions and and these have now been declassified they weren't when when I wrote my first book they've all been declassified now some of them on tape some of them transcripts discussing this and the the idea was okay well what do they do this they they came up with four faces federations coming to West West Berlin phase one was let's send out a patrol phase two let's send out a battalion phase three was are you know what we'll do some some intimidation will fly some airplanes over places will bottleneck some of their ships would do economics sanctions will have the United Nations pass a resolution condemning this and then phase four was nuclear and there is space for there are three divisions not FOR AZ we should have one nuclear weapon as a demonstration of our resolve maybe they'll back off for B. was we use tactical nuclear weapons we we blow up the whole battalion of their troops with nuclear weapons foresee was all out all out war and there were questions like whoa can we just go in for it Hey what's the chance that it would you know we would would escalate to foresee right away anyway Kennedy and by the way there were people among Kennedy's advisors who thought we can only go to nuclear weapons we shouldn't even bother to build conventional weapons because that might convince Khrushchev that we aren't willing to use nuclear weapons the whole thing of a deterrence our credibility and our power was to convince them that we are willing to use nuclear weapons this is the essence the essence of our defense policy at the time Kennedy decided this was insane this was going to be catastrophic and so he decided to do something kind of clever in the short run when Kennedy was elected the president was widely believed that there was a missile gap Russians were way ahead of us in this story by the time Kennedy entered office we started putting photo reconnaissance satellites over the Soviet Union and it turned out there wasn't a Sucka in fact the Soviet Union which was the believed to have two hundred three hundred missiles turned up at four and they they didn't have very much of anything else either Kennedy had his deputy secretary of defense Leon in Roswell ga Patrick give a speech that he'd been intending to give it the business roundtable in Virginia and the idea of the speech would be to announce there is no missile gap been exploiting this he boasted that he said were churning out ICBMs like sausages so this for the purpose of this speech was the tell Khrushchev we know you're blushing here's how many weapons we have so many weapons you have even if you launch a first strike we would still have overwhelming superiority against you and as a result of the two things first that on test of a fifty megaton hydrogen bomb which really didn't have much military purpose but he did it and second he realizes oh my god the the the blood has been blown he really believes that the United States was planning to launch a first strike the survey in and now he knew that Kennedy knew that he had nothing to fire back at and so what does he do he puts medium range missiles in Cuba twenty million a couple dozen medium range missiles in Cuba would be like having a couple of dozen intercontinental missiles in Russia but then we discover it because R. U. two aircraft are better than Christians people thought they were and then here's where there's kind of a real pleasant and not in that thing about the Cuban Missile Crisis are still a lot of myths this was in nineteen sixty two there's still a lot of nonsense being written about the Cuban Missile Crisis which is struck me as very odd because Kennedy secretly taped all thirteen days of the meetings that he had with all of his advisers sitting around you can listen to these tapes you can order them from the Kennedy library you can read the transcripts of these tapes and you know the myth is you know we went eyeball to eyeball with the Russians and they went there's another method on the Friday night the night before the crisis ended Khrushchev came up with a deal we'll take our missiles out of Cuba if you promise never to invade Cuba is turning heads have been plotting to assassinate Castro as we all know now then on Saturday he comes up with another deal creatures as actually will take on this is out of Cuba if you take your very similar missiles out of Turkey the message has been that Kennedy took the Friday night proposal at a New York the Saturday morning proposal in fact that is not about what happened the proposal comes in Saturday morning and by the way Christopher made that public and Kennedy says and it's on the tapes he says well this seems like a fair trade U. N. would would take this deal it's fair trade everybody around the table goes nuts not just the generals everybody Bobby Kennedy secretary of defense Robert McNamara National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy they all all of them say this world this will end NATO this one humiliate the Turks this would destroy our credibility now the plan was that we were going to start launching air attacks on the missiles in Cuba on Monday two days later and he says well you know and then we're going to invade Cuba three days after that can this is well you know simply looking ahead at what what we're looking at you know five hundred air sorties a day followed by an invasion then the Russians are bound to grab the lead in and blood will start to flow and it's known that this deal was on the table this is not going to be a good war anyway at the end of the meeting Kennedy call seven people into his office and tells them that he's taking the deal I'm sending Bobby Taylor and acid rain drop off to take the deal on the condition that they never reveal it and in fact he told the seven people you don't ever talk about this number and he perpetually he perpetrated the method it was the he he he Nord Saturday and Friday because this was the Cold War is it looked like he had made a deal with crucial office would be appeasement and he would be in deep trouble Fred Kaplan on the history of American policy toward nuclear war his book the bomb one of the seven people that he did not tell was vice president Lyndon Johnson who went into the war in Vietnam and other crises thinking accepting the myth that you go I bought I bought you don't back down you don't pursue diplomacy unlike George Bundy in his posthumous memoir regretted that she said it was a tragedy that we continue this life for so many years because it led to false lessons that lead to further tragedies after the Cuban Missile Crisis Kennedy is sitting looking at the defense budget the next year's defense budget with not Tamara and general Maxwell Taylor is chairman of the joint chiefs they're looking at next year's defense budget especially on nuclear weapons and Kennedy says you don't I don't know why we're spending so much money on nuclear weapons seems to me that forty missiles penetrate you know getting to forty to Soviet cities that would deter the money when the when the Russians have died twenty four missiles in Cuba I would have been deterred by that as the conversation went on he said you know I guess if deterrence failed what happens is that I would want to go after their missiles and yeah I guess I don't take more than forty weapons and in that moment sort of summarized during dilemma of nuclear strategy which was yeah I've only wonders to terror you know you say I'm gonna I'm gonna blow everything up you're gonna be dead if you do anything bad but you know deterrence isn't full proof whether deterrence fails can you put it in as many other people to put incense when she tried to do something that brought it to to run to a conclusion that didn't involve destroying all of humanity what can he wasn't comfortable with this dilemma and so he said obviously we have to end the Cold War that's the real problem here we have to and he gave a speech at American University in June of nineteen sixty three basically it's a beautiful speech look it up calling for the end of the Cold War Khrushchev was eager to be listening to this this press reprinted the speech in its entirety they turned off the jammers on the signals for voice of America for the Soviet people could hear this crucial from price that as as.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on KQED Radio
"Is the policy of our country never strike first with nuclear weapons so when I heard that back then president Merkin monthly saying it's the policy of our country never to strike first with nuclear weapons I assume that was certainly true were peace loving people it wasn't wasn't no one of the few things about doctor Strangelove which is which is not accurate is that line it has in fact always been the policy that the United States reserves the right to go first and in fact for the first few decades of the nuclear arms race it was assumed the main the the plan one eight of the nuclear war plan was for us to go first now it wouldn't be an unprovoked nuclear attack it would be in response to say a Soviet invasion of western Europe and at a time when we had very little in the way of conventional defenses to stave off the attack the the assumption was that we would use nuclear weapons president Obama raised the possibility he started a debate within the national security council to abolish that policy to go to a no first use policy because you know really seriously when we were ever really do this but there was an argument within the National Security Council secretary of defense Robert gates made this argument he said well look Mister president we could face a large scale biological attack from say the survey union or China or North Korea or Iran or whatever we don't have biological weapons anymore when she want to reserve the right to use nuclear weapons in response that would be our first years an Obama had to admit there was some logic to that and so even though he made it clear and toward the end of the administration even publicly that he did not think we would ever or should ever use them he did not change the dark trying a policy reserving the right to go first so for all those decades in the Cold War the idea was that having this possibility that we would launch a massive nuclear attack in response to a provocation was considered a necessary deterrent to the Soviets right but what happened was the Strategic Air Command which is now called strategic command which controlled the planning and use of nuclear weapons they went off on this whole time in this streak nobody really could control them it was very highly classified even from the joint chiefs of staff back in Washington could strategic commanders out in Omaha didn't really have a complete grasp of of what they were doing and your plan just got broke I mean really insane it got to the point where well in in the nineteen eighties there was a commander of the Strategic Air Command name general Jack chain who said in a hearing I need ten thousand weapons because I have ten thousand targets so I mean what would start happening is that the the target cheers out in Omaha we're just generating targets that they might have to hit in the event of a nuclear war and then sac Strategic Air Command would raise that as a requirement for how many nuclear weapons we needed it was a self generating circular logic that had increasingly little relationship to any sense of of what war aims might be or what US policy was or should be go over a little bit of history John F. Kennedy takes office after winning the nineteen sixty election and goes out to Omaha to meet with the you know the military leaders you write that he came away as shocked and appalled as he'd ever felt in his life why well the war plan at the time the nuclear war plan and again it was a nuclear war plan because we didn't have much in the way of conventional defenses was this if the Soviet Union or communist China or whatever even made a slight ground invasion of some allied vital ally territory and let's say they hadn't used any nuclear weapons at all yet US policy was to unleash our entire nuclear arsenal against every target in the Soviet Union the satellite nations of Eastern Europe and China even if China wasn't directly involved in the war this was something like seven thousand nuclear weapons at some point somebody asked well how many people would get killed in this attack and the estimate was two hundred and eighty five million people would be killed in this attack and there was no plan B. this was the only plan and so you can imagine the reaction from people who hadn't really been familiar with this line of thinking before right so Kennedy and his advisers begin to Mull this over one of the interesting things about Kennedy is that when he ran against Richard Nixon in nineteen sixty one of the points he made in the campaign was we are behind the Soviets in our production of of nuclear missiles there's a missile gap he gets in the office and they finally get some good satellite photos of the Soviets actual capability what did he discover right so throughout the late fifties airforce intelligence in particular were saying the Russians are way ahead of us by the early sixties are going to have five hundred ICBMs there for we need to have a crash program intercontinental ballistic missiles to he gets into office and as you said the the discover satellite to just started taking pictures from outer space and they made the discovery that the Soviet Union had four ICBMs I'm for five hundred but for so there was a missile gap but we were way ahead and yet the Air Force kept pushing for more and more missiles because well you know maybe they'll build more in the years to come by this this was an opportunity for Kennedy to rethink this yes it was and in fact he had some White House staff members who are saying look the checker and defense Robert McNamara came in with the program to build twelve hundred ICBMs and Kennedy's national security adviser McGeorge Bundy said look this estimate of this this need for twelve hundred this was calculated on the basis of the missile gap projections now we know they don't have so many let's cut this back to six hundred and the reason is that we build twelve hundred and the Russians are sitting there with four they might think that we're developing the ability to launch a first strike and they're gonna respond by a missile buildup of their own and we're gonna be stock an arms race and McNamara's response was well look the joint chiefs of staff wanted two thousand I've cut it to twelve hundred and that's all that I can cut it without just fomenting rebellion among the military ranks this is the best I can do and Kennedy who at the time I believe very much in giving his cabinet secretaries leeway let let McNamara win the argument so in nineteen sixty two Kennedy faces a real crisis the Soviets are building nuclear missiles in Cuba you know just off the coast of Florida I'm when I was a kid I remember this I remember seeing maps in my newspaper which showed the range of the missiles which included my house in Corpus Christi Texas that was full attention here yeah I remember this tube yeah so Kennedy and advisers had to figure out what to do and whether the wrong move would trigger a nuclear war it was resolved but how close did we come to going to war well we came very close and you know for many years there was a myth about how it was resolved and even now the real story is not that well known even though we have apes of all thirteen days of Kennedy and his advisers sitting around pondering this on the third day of the crisis which was a thirteen day crisis Kennedy is kind of mauling you sing I Khrushchev seems to have got himself in a trap maybe we need to give them a face saving gesture maybe we should trade the missiles that we have in Turkey for his missiles in Cuba nobody pays any attention to this on the Saturday when the the last day of the crisis Khrushchev issues a telegram proposing a deal we'll get rid of our missiles in Cuba you get rid of your missiles in Turkey and Kennedy says well this seems like a fair trade and everybody around the table is against this not just the generals but all the civilians Bobby Kennedy Robert McNamara McGeorge Bundy all these reasonable people they're all against this war wreck NATO this will undercut the church this will wreck our credibility Kennedy let some talking he says well you know it seems to me now this was on a Saturday the war plan where is gonna start attacking the Cuban missile sites on the following Monday Kennedy says well you know it seems to me that once we start doing this we start doing five hundred sorties a day against the missile sites and then invade the island which was planned for the following Friday then the Russians undergrad Berlin and if it's known that if it's known that this proposal was on the table and we didn't take it it's not going to be a good war well the argument goes on Kennedy secretly sends Bobby to make the deal with the Soviet ambassador he tells six people about this now unfortunately one of the six people was not vice president Lyndon Johnson who when he became president after Kennedy was murdered thought that the myth the Kennedy himself put out that you know we when I bought I bought with the Russians and they blinked was how it worked and it heavily influenced his views about what to do in the Vietnam War and and many years later McGeorge Bundy wrote in his memoir that it was a tragedy that we kept up this myth for so many years because it leads to misperceptions and and horrendous policies elsewhere by by which he meant Vietnam but you know there there's one other thing about this that we've only learned more recently it turned out and this was not known at the time that the Russians had already installed nuclear warheads on some of those missiles it also turned out that the Russians had secretly deployed forty thousand troops to the island of Cuba to stave off a potential American invasion so if Kennedy had succumbed to all of his advisers and said yeah you're right we we can't take this deal and gone ahead with air strikes gone ahead with the invasion the Russians might very well of launched one of those missiles on warning and the the small invasion force going into Cuba would have found themselves being repelled by forty thousand Soviet trip the we would have been in a war with the Soviet Union so that you know one lesson of this is that who you're like this president really does matter sometimes it doesn't the fact that you have a lot of smart advisers doesn't necessarily seal the deal Fred Kaplan's book is the bomb presidents generals and the secret history of nuclear war we'll take a break here and then we'll talk some more this is fresh AIR support for KQED comes from the state building and construction trades council of California probably representing four hundred fifty thousand trades men and women including sixty three thousand apprentices at training centers around the state building tomorrow's infrastructure today S. B. C. T. C. dot org you're.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on 77WABC Radio
"Thank John John Batchelor show dead runs but the long shadow works through the contrast and comparison and the irony of the great war fourteen eighteen as remembered as interpreted it as used by political leaders as responded to by the men and women the moms and dads at homes who are about to send their boys their children born after the first war into the second war and I go to the discovery of bells in Bergen Belsen and book involved in April of nineteen forty five it is the fact that the Soviets it over run the death camps in Poland earlier that year January February we had very little of that in the western media there's a story there but when the allies the Americans and the British friend over book involved for the Americans and bells and for the British it was undeniable and a man named Dimbleby Richard Dimbleby tells the story to the British audience in the way Morrow told it to the American audience and how did Britain here this and how did this transform the the second war David well again we have to take out those back to different age that he's movie footage eventually not a lot of people listen to the radio and great radio journalist like Mara and given will pretty were monsters all using words to explained ideas in people's minds and given movies who want macs are fine veteran reporter tell the story of picking his way I records off to cool in the gloom seeing one still alive and living skeleton and actually break down several times in trying to look cool story he tells a friend you must according to the schedule and see it but you'll never walk number that off your hands never get it out of your mind the power of the school calls just like Mara's from from book involved I think kind of the different on people and walked the of the she needs of the **** regime something totally different from the faucet is that the closes only had committed on a much smaller scale in fourteen eighteen and this is a problem and I help because the public was reluctant to believe the atrocity stories because of the exaggerations and the propagandistic abuse of what the Germans did in the first war so you mentioned however a for example that Eisenhower went to book involved and walk through it because he wanted to add his bona feet as if he was ever called to testify that's right and that was why very deliberately Eisenhower went through the camps he made local German visit can he allowed American army at newsreels and and and magazines like life to visit the camps to take pictures and so on this with documentation of the barber is that the **** regime had had inflicted and it's also cool the basis for the case at you're in the right tool we'll deal all the all the at that meeting at the not the leader this is very important in David's book war guilt it's important to compare how Lloyd George and Clemenceau wanted to prosecute the Kaiser in eighteen Wilson was against it and how that disappointment or thinking informed the plan to arrest fifty two of the leading Germans in forty five try twenty two of them at Nuremberg over eleven months and eventually hang twelve of them how was the decision made they looked at the first war how did Lloyd George and Clemenceau those wish to punish the Germans how was that X. named in the the wish to punish the Germans in forty five well the interesting thing is that the the key countries Britain and the United States flip around intently opposite ditions Lloyd George the British prime minister in nineteen eighteen nineteen ninety he's the one who really want colleagues at the gym leader on crime bother like if you said Charles the first from on in the civil war add to the whole thing cool I'm the Americans against it the second time around the British say no we are not having any more often than ten to war trials if that injection in fact would be quite happy to have at it yeah summary court martial he German leaders and shoot them hand it's the Americans who want to go through a whole legal price all up prosecution for rules of aggression for crimes against humanity day sixteen motion at Nuremberg the price said that has continued right through to the present day we saw again resigns as the old Yugoslavia the advantages in malls and and the problems in judicial patterns that that brings with it lots of problems let's main name one of them Henry Stimson the secretary of state very aged at this point but in any event still in the game publishers thanks to his ghostwriter McGeorge Bundy February nineteen forty seven in Harper's magazine an explanation in which he's trying to he's trying to link the war crimes tribunals the evil of the of the Germans the **** those have been hanged and those are in jail and links that with the effort of the war the crusades the good war but he's also trying to rationalize the death of a hundred thousand Japanese using the nuclear weapons I I I confess professor it doesn't convince me now it it might be something you had to be there to see because it all seems very expedient morality that met that Henry Stimson using well didn't believe he's wrestling we huge mall Paul buttons all world power and will will die act to defeat evil you may end up making you feel yourself and the issue with all you thieving with lesser or greater detail yeah includes all given with regard to the yeah the loss of Japanese life this wall of a way to end the war quickly to avoid additional American losses to avoid a war in Japan and going on for another year or two in order to deal with the criticism he and he gets right to exaggerate the possible gets totaled it might have been sued if the United States the debate the Japanese had my Simpson in probably be either either Amanda liking recognized if you can gauge in a difficult day what he wants to do about to avoid some calling all backlash the tip of the school to do could off the world one again the way that the allies have prosecuted thirty guys but if you like rhetorical the Q. justification of the palm in order to prevent a backlash against the use of American power in the post war period Henry Stimson was of course secretary of war I miss beta spoke the professor has a ride in his book one more detail here because we went to we went past it before but I think I wanna folded in in this effort to convince the American people and the world about the righteousness of the American British the good guys win the second war there was a movie named Wilson that was for book produced by Hollywood I've seen it it's very stiff and unconvincing but at the time Hollywood celebrated it is one of the greatest movies ever made and it was presented as a way to way to prevent World War three I see it is a repeat of the Wilson fourteen points of the first war it was seen as we did it wrong then we're going to do it right now and yet we've already worked through the ironies of Wilson over reaching and a what you have to say creating the term all by promising what he couldn't deliver I don't think they saw that in nineteen forty five yeah I Wilson is a cool site it's a fascinating character because his reputation has been flooded across allow entry he won denigrated off the V. in the backlash against American involvement in World one but he is resurrected as you say at the end of the second World War in the state department crusade for a better league of nations if you live in this this town code United Nations which is still very much and America's second shown leadership this time to get it right where if it hadn't been for Ron Wilson era and of the movie will Janet's movie he's a he's a patient of Wilson as a kind of find Judaic falls the boss only hi in media all the wrong kind of world which is frustrated by the politicians in nineteen ninety three the walls laying the basis for the New World order that was to follow it often on the phone one additional irony the quote from Hannah Arent mass death replaced by the problem of evil that's my note from the professors book this is a way to explain the first war as a part of the crusade to defeat the German Prussian militarist aggression did Churchill and Roosevelt prosecute that did they promote that to their their public before church before wouldn't before Roosevelt's death yes by both of them I can have a strong view about the on the lines of Gemini engine place in in your both of them I think that the basic problem walls militarism eagle ranging questions states and then spreading out into Germany often gender unification under this mall neither of them I think I understood the particular would not sell not baseball look convinced it actually what she needed to do all this work the second World War with to turn the clock back to Germany the walls raw the like the one who will be smart unified the country so gently all small state red cell blocks is more state should through a number of small state but the problem wants a big Jim enable the militarists tradition in the center of your back what had to be pulled back so what we're doing here at the close of the war than Truman takes it up afterwards is trying to re fashion the end of the first war correctly any and that the court they create the conditions that are so difficult in the Cold War and we're still living with and we're going to turn the Cold War next because it fifty year mark anniversary Britain Ireland the United States and West Germany to name for the professors list all remember the first war differently and importantly Expedia play I'm John bachelor the book is the long shot of the legacies of the great war in the twentieth century by professor David rentals this is the John Batchelor show.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on KGO 810
"Ex con now at the table are the is the ex is the executive committee what is X. com and who is there and what is their problem on the twenty ninth of October right B. X. com was a fancy name for a group of advice that was that was mainly made up of his regular National Security Council advises but when he was first shown photos of the missiles in Cuba and on October sixteenth nineteen sixty two he wanted some other people at the table who were not part of the National Security Council and the the most probably the most important person there in that category was Robert Kennedy his brother the Attorney General and as Attorney General he was not a member of the National Security Council but after the bay of pigs debacle the previous year Kennedy wanted his brother's council and once his brother in the room and so he brought together advises that was basically the National Security Council old mentor and a big by giving it a different name he was able to bring in people on an ad hoc basis at one point he brought in former secretary of state dean Acheson and that basically it's his senior national security council advises that he once in the room to helping grapple with this problem wise men now did Dexcom existed before the sixteenth of October nineteen sixty eight did not in technically it didn't wasn't nine the X. call my sink until about October twentieth but now it before that it did not exist all right we have Rusk and McNamara present the table secretary of state secretary of defense and then components include McGeorge Bundy national security adviser Ted Sorensen special adviser to the president are very is people a present at times and not president out there on the tapes you can tell who's there and who's not or is it a guessing game all these years later at the guessing game well there's two parts of the evidence is in the store and we can go back to look at. the president secretaries and keep this to keep a detailed list of the president's activities during the day and I will write to the minute about meeting so he takes place and a lot of the time they would list but dissidents who are in the room. and also they're also neck take is a lot of these meetings so we there's a fairly good list but otherwise it when those are incomplete or they don't exist then we have to go back and just listen to the voices in one voice is to find out who was there all right twenty ninth October the problem is that the president and exchanges with Nikita Khrushchev who is the premier of the Soviet Union the two states locked in deep into cold water now with missiles primed with nuclear submarines primed with surveillance equipment armies deployed Vietnam is yet a nascent problem not a profound one for the Kennedy administration and the Soviet Union at this point has rolled over all of Eastern Europe and it's quite confident although it has years ahead to deteriorate the problem is over Cuba Fidel Castro who leads a revolution that is successful the end of fifty eight and it goes through a period of being romanced by all sides including the United Nations and eventually he sides with the Soviet Union the Soviet state so the Soviet state has what it sees as a foothold in the New World violating all understanding of the Monroe doctrine and very much threatening as it remains to the United States of America at the same time Berlin is a problem for the United States because it is like an island in the sea of red in East Germany that's nineteen sixty two but the crisis over the last two days our last two weeks has been the thought photographs that show medium range nuclear tipped missiles deployed ready to be deployed and possibly threatening the United States not a and consistent with how the United states's forward based missiles around the Soviet Union but in any event it's seen as a shock because his election coming up now they've solved this Chris japonais Kennedy of exchange Bobby Kennedy is aerobically come in negotiating with and representatives of the the the Russian embassy and they agreed to take away.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on NutriMedical Report
"Or mcgeorge bundy ran the ford foundation created the center for the study study of democratic institutions and and and on and on but <hes> we find that <hes> the right hand man for harder carter was a founding member of the trilateral commission along with packard jordan region skiing rockefeller but one of the ones with cyrus vance who was the secretary of state for carter and so people we're being alerted by a doctor sutton's <hes> <hes> revelations and they were enthusiastic because they did not know about ronald reagan's <hes> you know he he was still characterized as a california conservative governor in which he was not <hes> but <hes> this is what happened when ed niece <hes> you know ronald reagan became president at least <hes> made a whole track <hes> movement and and staff the cabinet and dan is part of the transition committee <hes> together he travels today with <hes> michael reagan in fact michael reagan speaking <hes> within the next two weeks here in monterey <hes> ed meese <hes> put in more secret society microbes <hes> <hes> reagan himself appointed george bush golan bones with with his huge. You know deep state heavy duty <hes> trail. I mean nobody could be aware just <hes> if they were just made knew nothing about secret societies they would know about the <hes> bush's <hes> contribution with hair manila going on the front of the corporation that runs all the private prisons in america. You know <hes> people don't understand what's going on here. George bush senior by ottaway announced <hes> project omega back at nine hundred eighty two was completed that was conceived by the society of nazi germany nineteen thirties. There's a connection between the bush by the way nazi germany his father actually helped to fund tube u._s. banks adolf hitler and even got a defined but never spent any time in prison george bush's father people right they were they were talking about colluding. They were financing hitler <hes> through so <hes> union bank. I believe it was with three members of the s._s. Skull bone and by the way at the same time i have to mention this other interesting factoid that i took care pilots flying nineteen seventy seven to flew for the british airway air force and they were not allowed to bombs specific areas of factories in germany because the germans indirection making munitions incident bring them over in new boots to the to the british to actually shoot and destroy germans shells and advance weapons and those we're paid by a british gold bullion directly to the nazis. We were not allowed to bomb the group. <hes> factory was making munitions or other areas or even a so-called work camps that were prison camps. People don't understand the war was all in a sense a stage just like nine eleven to the stage and you'll notice that he was trump was builder where he's not mentioning anything about nine eleven. Although i see hosts on their even tucker carlson's whole dairies as something that treats people ended up this it was an inside job. We did a sacrifice. You have to think about this. In the ancient world three thousand four thousand years ago when ancient battlefields would actually lineup they'd actually take their children to the front line the sacrifice their children before their enemy scare the heck out of the enemy and some of them run we see this in in the area of you know transylvania where the chance of any and <hes> people basically led by vlad the impaler remember that allowed the impaler he actually scared the heck out of the muslims because they came in to invade tromso selena and the actually took people and impale them on polls okay so you have to understand what's going on here. Is we don't mind at all afflicted the deal we did with the with the saudi arabia and the arab emirates. We're going to defend you even with their own blood in her own. Young people dying to defend saudi arabia saudi arabia's this spreading lobbyism all over the world with the help by the way the british because we'll have ism wasn't invented in saudi arabia by by the saad family was invented in britain by the high level royal arch masons in the five and all those guys were were involved in that world war two was nothing but h._s._a. Board operation in fact there's a book out by i try and day that suppressed books and i haven't read it..
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on Biz Talk Radio
"He's talking about the f s c the national Security Council, of course, and talk, so the models right now and you can start to get into the details. You say the honest broker thing is kind of missed, but Scowcroft when he was at under Bush forty one was always considered the closest to an honest broker. And then the opposite side of that might be Kissinger Nixon Iran-Contra. Can you talk about the models? Yeah. So I think that this sort of idea that has grown up in government, especially after Ron country in one of the true ironies of the of Washington is at Berne Scowcroft in Henry Kissinger, co workers, right? Coker over was is that what is deputy after being military to the president? So it's one of those ones that two very different people. But I think they were similar one respect which is they wanted control. And they wanna control from the White House. They both believe that that was important. They took two different approaches to doing it one with Kissinger decided to sort of descend into secrecy. In poll things away and not share things with the government with the rest of government. That was his way of getting control and to a degree that fit what president president Nixon's predilections right into degrees, and I do give them a degree of not credit, but I do sort of sympathize with their problem, which is they came into government in nineteen sixty nine and I described the book, what's really fascinating is like for all like legend Kissinger that we think about her came into government in nineteen sixty nine when he became national security adviser, and he had barely serving government. He had, you know, he'd served in the army and two and then he had served as consultant to the White House during the kitchen, your day, Kennedy years, because he was one of many at Harvard. He was smart person who everybody wanted around government. And he came in both Nixon kissing a writer government, which government had no ideas on. They had hundreds of thousands of troops there. They had sort of this sort of bombing halt that, John. Johnson had done native stalemate on the battlefield. But nobody had any ideas route end or other than just walk away. And so that was unacceptable to, to Kissinger Nixon. But their solution was we'll just forget the rest of the government. We're just gonna do it on our own and that there's some, you know, virtue net like, hey, maybe it works. They were able to do that with the opening China, but the problem is war. You can't win alone for the White House and the end to keep that secrecy. They also got into all the problems that would then manifest themselves a modern gate, you know, the bugging doing the things you know, the first staff person that they bug the first person, the Nixon White House bugged with an NFC staffer, right, helpers and see find like that secrecy model that sort of dishonest brokering is an app recipe for her. No Scowcroft comes in after having served his actual security, visor, Gerald Ford, when when Kissinger lost that title, go crop comes in after Ron contra and really. At a time where the NFC could've been wrecked. Right. There was plenty of people wanted to get rid of it, or at least make it change it significantly. And he basically says we can do honest, brokering, and honest, brokering concept that kinda got taken from the academic literature. Right. Which was this idea that you need somebody at the center of things who doesn't really have a huge opinion or a or is at least able to make sure everybody else's opinion is hurt. This is in and he said, let's shake we can do that. And he was able to do that in part because he had a perfect totally symbiotic relationship with president George H W Bush was one of his best rent. And so you had a situation where that is the model and Scowcroft is the model basically hilts held force for thirty or forty years, the challenge, get his there hasn't been another Scowcroft since then, so we have a system that's kinda built for somebody who had a total perfect relationship with the president. And we haven't had another one like that since then the national security is run the way. The presidency DO secrecy is want then. I don't think that the system a system is big can be run just how the president wants. I mean, I think that, that as much as I think that if you look at the past three presidents George W Bush Brock Obama and Donald Trump as different as they are a lot of similarities persist, right? They're still very strong ESI staff. They're still, you know. Presidential preferences in of decision making. There's still information is poured into the White House, and then decisions are out. So I think a lot of it is, is similar, many of the NFC staffers have served under George H W Bush, and Barack Obama Brock Obama and Donald Trump like a lot of that consistency is there. So, yes, there are certainly some some presents preferences that play out. But I think the system has mostly been the same for thirty or forty years, and basically, from thirty years from, from the Scowcroft, rain today, the system's not that different regardless of the president. It's kind of one of the few consistencies in Washington is the national security system. But so you their preferences come into, like how they like their memos written, and how they like information, but they're, you know, this system has been basically the same Simpson so towards Bundy ran it for JFK, there were about twelve staffers got up to, like two hundred or so at the peak. So, yeah, so the call the policy staffers. So there's the policy staffers of the folks that actually work on regional and functionalist China. They work on nuclear issues that work on cyber. So when McGeorge Bundy was in there and Kennedy was really the national security advisor in a lot of ways, because he sort of so kept things personal. And it was so clubby the way he did it, you know, it doesn't or so, folks, working on policy stuff. And then there was also what they call sort of administrative staffers. So people who were answering the phones, making sure, you know, secretarial work. Now, today, it's in the three or four hundred range depending on how you're counting with about one hundred fifty hundred sixty hundred seventy depending on which day that week accounting working on policy, and then another hundred fifty hundred sixty sometimes two hundred working on technology, HR everything else's situation. Right. Yeah. Paying about three or four hundred people reporting to the to the national security adviser, for those of, you know, your folks, who work in business, and management corporate work, you know, that's a big difference. You know, in the national security measures basically got a bandage that while also spending almost half for all their day with the president of the president. It's it's it's impossible job. I mean I have friends from the Obama administration and worked, you know, those visors basically are in meetings or with the president all day. And then, you know, from that point on this time after time after time the State Department is just accepted a stronger and stronger NFC staff, including with the coup that talks about. We're finally said, well, I'm just going to make it official and took the secretary of state out of the position of being chair of the meetings. Right. And that's security visors and, and Vance this sort of end Brzezinski were that was a huge conflict until presents eventually one, and then remember Scowcroft made it official like. Secretary stated tier interior meeting thirty years in part because, you know, this is become how it is. And that's largely due to the fact that state has had a hard time playing the Washington game. Right. They, they are not as good at fighting bureaucratic fights and interest. Many Kanter parts are either at the White House, the defense department. I've been intrigued to the State Department never can do like new initiative kind of stuff that comes out of other areas, whether it's China detente or anything they just they just don't do that. The idea still out of there. So they are probably the most susceptible bureaucratic sclerosis as anybody. And I mean that was, you know, I mean that was, I mean, that was Nixon central theory. I mean, he had he had personal beef with a lot of people in the State Department. And he wasn't wrong. They didn't like him. And I mean he used them, you know, a colorful language to describes the diplomats, but he was basically like they don't. They don't have any, any issues any things that I had a if not my dissertation about the number of presidents who complained about the State Department, and it just goes back into the eighteen hundreds, right? We just, you know, I mean it's part of what happens with a with a diplomatic core. And I don't think we're the only.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on Biz Talk Radio
"With former chief speechwriter at the Pentagon, John gains gains. He's talking about the f s c the national Security Council, of course and we'll talk show the models right now. And you can start to get into the details. You say the honest broker thing is kind of missed, but Scowcroft when he was at under Bush forty one was always considered the closest to an honest broker. And then the opposite side of that might be Kissinger Nixon. And the Iran contra, can you talk about the models? Yeah. So I think that the sort of idea that has grown up in government, especially after Iran, contra and, and one of the true ironies of the of Washington is burnt, Scowcroft, and Henry Kissinger, where coworkers, right? Well, that's right. Brench Coker over was his that was his deputy after being military to the president. So it's one of those ones that two very different people. But I think they were similar one respect which is they wanted control. And they wanted to control from the White House. They both believe that that was important. They took two different approaches to doing it one with Kissinger decided to sort of descend into secrecy in pull things away and not share things with the government with the rest of government. That was his way of getting control and do a degree that fit what president president Nixon's predilections, right into degrees. And I do give them a degree of not credit. But I do sort of sympathize with their problem, which is they came into government in nineteen sixty nine and I described the book, what's really fascinating like for all like legend, Kissinger, that we think about kissing, her came into government in nineteen sixty nine when he became national security adviser, and he had barely served in government. He had served in the army and what we're two. And then he had served as a consultant to the White House during the kitchen, your day Kennedy in years, because he was one of many at Harvard, who was smart person who everybody wanted around government. And he came in both next thing Kissinger, writer out government, which government had no idea. On the they had hundreds of thousands of troops there. They had sort of this sort of bombing halt that Johnson had done data stalemate on the battlefield. But nobody had any ideas for how to end or other than just walk away. And so that was unacceptable to, to Kissinger Nixon. But their solution was we'll just forget the rest of the government. We're just gonna do it on our own and that there's some, you know, virtue net like, hey, maybe it works. They were able to do that with the opening the China, but the problem is, is the war, you can't win alone from the White House and the end to keep that secrecy. They also got into all the problems, it would then manifest themselves a moderate gate, you know, the bugging doing the things you know, the first staff person that they bugged, the first person, the Nixon White House bugged with an NFC staffer right helper. And see you find that, that secrecy model that sort of dishonest brokering is an avid recipe for disaster. Now, Scowcroft comes in after having served as security visor to Gerald. Ford when when Kissinger lost that title, go crop comes in after Ron contra and really at a time where the NFC could have been wrecked. Right. There was plenty of people wanted to get rid of it, or at least make it change it significantly. And he basically says we can do honest, brokering, and honest brokering with a concept that kinda got taken from the academic literature. Right. Which was this idea that you need somebody at the center of things who doesn't really have a huge opinion or a or is at least able to make sure everybody else's opinion is hurt. This is in and he said, let's shake we can do that. And he was able to do that in part because he had a perfect totally symbiotic relationship with president George H W Bush was one of his best friend. And so you had a situation where that is the model and Scowcroft is a model that's basically hilts held force for thirty or forty years. The challenge getting there hasn't been another Scowcroft since then. So we have a system that's kinda built for somebody who had a total perfect relationship with the press. And we haven't had another one like that. Since then helped me, the national security is run the way the presidency deal secrets. He's want then. Well, I don't think that the system a system is big can be run just how the president wants. I mean, I think that, that as much as I think that if you look at the past three presidents George W Bush Brock Obama and Donald Trump as different as they are a lot of similarities persist, right? They're still very strong ESI staff. They're still, you know, presidential preferences in terms of decision making. There's still information is poured into the White House, and then decisions are out. So I think a lot of it is, is similar, many of the NFC staffers have served under George H W Bush and Barack Obama, Barack Obama and Donald Trump like a lot of that consistency is there. So, yes, there are certainly some, some presidential preferences that play out. But I think the system has mostly been the same for thirty or forty years, and basically, from thirty years from, from the Scowcroft, rain today, the system's not that different. Regardless of the president is kind of one of the few consistencies in Washington is, is the national security system. But so you, you their preferences come into, like how they like their memos written, and how they like information, but they're, you know, this system has been basically the same Simpson so big towards Bundy ran it for JFK, there were about twelve staffers got up to two hundred or so with the peak. So, yeah, so the call the policy staffers, so there's the policy staffers of the folks that actually work on regional and functionalist China. They work on nuclear issues that work on cyber. So when McGeorge Bundy was in there and Kennedy was really the national security advisor in a lot of ways, because he sort of so kept things personal. And it was so clubby the way he did it, you know, it doesn't or so, folks, working on policy stuff, and then there was also what they call sort of administrative staffers. So people who were answering the phones, making sure you know, it secretarial work. Now, today, it's in the three or four hundred. Range, depending on how you're counting with about a hundred and fifty hundred sixty hundred seventy depending on which day of the week, you're counting working on policy, and then another hundred fifty hundred and sixty sometimes two hundred working on technology, HR everything else's situation, right? Yeah. Paint about three or four hundred people reporting today to the national security adviser. And for those of, you know, your folks, who work in business, and management corporate work, you know, that's a big difference. You know, in the national security, visors, basically got a bandage that while also spending almost half for all their day with the president of vitamin the president. It's, it's a it's an impossible job. I mean I have friends with your bomb mystery and worked. You know, those visors basically are in meetings, or with the president all day. And then, you know, from that point on this time after time after time the State Department is just accepted a stronger and stronger NFC staff, including with a coup that goes into talks about. We're Kissinger, finally just said, well, I'm just. Gonna make it official took the secretary of state out of the position of being chair the meetings. Right. And, and that's a security visors and, and Vance's, sort of and Brzezinski, were that was a huge conflict until presents eventually one and then remember Scowcroft made it official like secretary stated in tier two meeting thirty years in part, because, you know, this is a big come how it is. And that's largely due to the fact that state has had a hard time playing the Washington game. Right. They, they are not as good at fighting the bureaucratic fights and interest time many, their counterparts are either at the White House. The defense department, I've always been intrigued with the State Department. Never can do like new initiative kind of stuff that comes out of other areas. Whether it's China or detente or anything they just they just don't do that. The ideas out of there, so they are probably the most susceptible. Eurocratic. Sclerosis as anybody, and I mean that was, you know, I mean that was key. I mean, that was Nixon central theory. I mean, he had he had personal beef with a lot of people in the State Department, and he wasn't wrong that they didn't like him. And I mean he used them, you know, a colorful language to describe the diplomats, but he was basically like they don't they don't have any, any issues any things in that guy had a footnote in my dissertation, about the number of presidents who complained about the State Department, and it just goes back into the eighteen hundreds, right? Because people just, you know, I mean it's part of what happens with a with a diplomatic core. And I don't think we're the only country that struggles with that. All right. We're back with our next segment. Rape. Number twenty five. Writing right here. You've heard those term life insurance ads what their rates read very low and at the end they have a long. Disclaimer read extremely fast. Why? Because.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on 77WABC Radio
"Fight a war that oh young. Vietnamese people should be fighting put himself and he painted cold water wasn't much of a Holcombe the subject of Vietnam as being a virtually crazy man, and the many people who voted for poor Johnson. Assumed that they were voting for somebody who would not escalate the war in Vietnam. As January begins and the president take is inaugurated to his own, right? As president of the United States. You meant you note that he's very active. He's sending messages all the time to congress, but they all seem to be focused on domestic policy. And of course, that's the great society. What's he an -ticipant ING in January with his national security apparatus that Vietnam was going to get worse. Did he see it coming? Is she did Johnson? Did see it coming? He had prepared for it. What are you got into it? He he knew what he was doing wasn't. If he stumbled blindly, your stupidly in the war says some accounts for lead you to believe they pay Johnson as a fairly ignorant Texan. Ooh. Yes. New a good deal about a Mesic affairs, but was unsophisticated relatively uneducated man who did not understand international relationships nearly as well as Eisenhower, for instance, or Kennedy did and that later on what he does ask them the war in Vietnam. They said that's just an indication of how stupid he was. He didn't know what he was doing. But in fact Johnson has you pointed out earlier had been in congress since nineteen thirty seven, right? He'd been the Senate minority leader the number Georgy leader. And throughout most of the fifty he'd been vice president for three years. He served on the Senate Armed forces committee. He had taken on as his top advisors and foreign policy. Kennedy's major age that is secretary of state Dean Rusk the secretary of defense Robert McNamara. National security advisor Harvard foreign Plummer, dean of faculty at Harvard. And these people were the best and the brightest is a writer. However, Alvis HAMAs later later to put it, and he he sought airy maintained that he was just pursuing the same policies that Kennedy had pursued which was to protect the free world as it was called in a Cold War against communism who allowed South Vietnamese to fall to the communists and their professor. There is the moment because I think you've McGeorge Bundy is the name you were looking for the national security adviser. Yes, that is the Kennedy national security apparatus. And yet there's this tension. You quote Johnson. He's very colorful earthy. I think we could be diplomatic here. There's there's this moment where I felt that he was in competition with Kennedy's foreign policy that he kept his team in place, and he wasn't going to be accused of losing Vietnam or being hesitant. We know that he'd misled the country and distorted the Tonkin Gulf. Of the previous August, we know this now his national security team certainly had reason to suspect. It did Johnson feeling competition with them did he feel in competition with the candidates who are identified with the Pacific war and the European war that he had to show that he he wore Spurs and guns too. I think he was in competition. I don't let it gets the Kennedys. But it gets it really. He really was a person who wanted to prove himself as a as a strong decisive person who wasn't going to be pushed around by foreign powers or four hundred faculty. But in this in this respect, I think that's that's that that describes an awful lot of late twentieth century and early twenty first century American presidents. They really don't want to be perceived as weak or go down in history as people who allowed United States to become pushed around by people or or in danger. So he so he yes, he felt very much felt in competition with a Kennedy the relationship that he had the Kennedy is everybody knows was terrible. Particularly his relationship with Bobby Kennedy hated each other rice, I had a a former student at probably university wrote a very good book calls a mutual contempt which described the relationship between Bobby Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson and traced it way back to the fifties. And right up until about the Kennedy's assassination in nineteen sixty eight. So yes, he did he did feel competition with them, but mainly he did not want to be the president that allows Southie at Phnom to co communist. The tension now is is January the domestic policy and all of a sudden out of nowhere comes an incident plight coup which is a Southie at Phnom part of South Vietnam, and there's an ambush there's a strike by the Viet Cong communists against the the the base there plight coup and Americans lose their lives. And that is a blow to Johnson that seems out of proportion given the risks that he's taking if at that point. Did he make decision to pour troops in? Or was that evolving over the next months? When did he come to the idea that he was going to put ground troops in? Well, as you point out right after play which has six or seven of nineteen sixty five there was this girl attack and American lives were lost and nervous plans for them. And he responded very quickly with the plan that he and his people to draw up well before that air attacks upon North Vietnam, right one hundred and fifty aircraft warcraft launched to get Vietnam. Although we ringed around Hanoi and Haiphong he was going to say it was going to tack everything in the infrastructure. Yes. He really was. And and you say not except for he was always worried about either the Russians or the Chinese actually sending troops in. They both nations. Of course, helping us the nam, they roll communist nations. I did not want them, of course, coming in as the Chinese you come in during Korea, which he remember vividly haven't been in the in the Senate at the time. So he was careful about that. But the the attacks were furious they.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on The Axe Files with David Axelrod
"First the first governor of Massachusetts, John Winthrop, whose the the who delivered the sermon on the Arbella that ship coming into the harbour famous was quoted by Kennedy and Reagan is the we shall be as if a city upon the hill he delivered that sermon on the ship. And he it turns out was my great grandfather eight times over something. So we had a public side and the very private side from two different experiences and my mother's father. My grandfather was working abroad at the onset of World War Two. My mother was as the onset came at trained to be a nurse, and she was working in Montparnasse station in Paris, and she escaped in front of the Germans the night before they came into Paris. She and her sister and friends rode their bikes and forage. Way across France and she came to America via Portugal and. Politics. Clearly, your your parents were very aware. And so politics must have been something that was discussed around your your well, politics less. For foreign affairs where discussed the table. I mean, I became a democrat when my two year older sister Peggy drag me around George down with a Cup inter and collecting money for adults. Stevenson, nineteen fifty two and those my first understanding politics, and I went to is in ours. Inauguration watch the parade like everybody else and years later before you got to college you had an encounter with the president. An amazing encounter. I write in the by think, I I've said to a lot of people have really led a forest Gump in life. And a lot of it. And when I was eighteen years old, I wound up in a circumstance where I went sailing with the president of the United States, Jack Kennedy, and I met him in the house. He I was drove up to the house one secret service guy right in front of the house what John Kerry's? Okay. Yeah. You're expected. I walk in. There's one guy standing by this window looking out at the water longingly. He turns around walks over as president Kennedy. And I was so I didn't know anything. And I said Hello, Mr. Kennedy. Of course, you know, not using the traditional Mr President. I didn't know you did that back then and he was wonderful. He was he could not have been more. Putting this young guy at ease. He said where are you going to college and grimmest I said I'm gonna Yale because he's a Harvard guy. So there's no, no, no, don't worry. He said I'm ill man to now because that was the year that he famously received his honorary degree and said, I know have the best of two worlds. Cbs Harvard education. Yeah. The degree. Yeah. It was a great moment. And and you came here. I got the sense that from your own writing that. That academics were not your soul concern when you know, I was I was. I was mostly. I mean, I played a couple of sports here to sports played varsity soccer for several years, and I played JV hockey. And then senior year went up lacrosse, I made the team played in the cross, and I did a lot of extracurricular activities. And so I I did exactly what's on that table right there. That Mark Twain suggested never let school getting away of an. And I didn't. But one of the things you did what you had a a an encounter one of your friends here. Maybe a roommate had to in the in the administration in a high. Yeah. One of my roommates. Yeah. Had was the nephew of George and Bill Bundy. Yeah. Deeply involved in McGeorge Bundy was a national security advisor to Hannity, and that's that's how you began thinking about enlisting going to be at Phnom. Well, as part of it, David I think I write in the book that. I am the son of greatest generation parents. And as I've explained I mean, my dad left Harvard law and and enlisted as as a young cadet in the army air corps, and it was nineteen thirty nine. I mean early on in in that. So they had a sense of duty and service in a sense of priority for America. I think that was passed onto me, but it was passed on through a lot of a lot of inputs and. When I enlisted it was nineteen sixty five. And we'd had the Tonkin Gulf incident Lyndon Johnson asked for five hundred thousand more troops. We all of suddenly here. At Yale had our lives turned topsy turvy. Do you?.
"mcgeorge bundy" Discussed on MSNBC Morning Joe
"It would be like if they are hired only radio personalities you know i it's it's a fascinating kind of employment agency which is what's happened in terms of a president who's information ecosystem comes from ideologically driven by and large cable television and i'm not trying to be clever not trying to be dismissive that's a clinical observation you you have a series of people who are coming in who have pretty clear ideological agendas or at least play people who have pretty clear geological agendas on tv right so that that that's how the president knows them and if you have any doubt and i know you have a family connection to this that the national security adviser matters enormously all you have to do is look at mcgeorge bundy you look it's is a big present ski you look at henry kissinger you look at brent scowcroft you'll get condie rice these are enormously important positions and there are different ways to do them there are some people who play the honest broker who simply take ideas and present them to the president there are some who have tried to put their thumb on the scale a bit a bit more strongly but in each of those cases and here's my sort of undercutting by own point of view in each of those cases the precedents were presidents who had a particular world view and who had a way of thinking about and being president whether it was kennedy johnson nixon carter all these people who actually had ideas about what they wanted to do you didn't have it entirely reactive president in what we have now is a reactive president who's brought in some of the strongest and in some ways outside the mainstream voices at john i mean this is a national security adviser who certainly knows what he wants to do as we said earlier he's written recent columns about preemptive strikes against north korea and iran he obviously was one of the central characters in the run up to the iraq war making the case that there were weapons of mass destruction has been unapologetic since the war since we learned there weren't weapons of mass destruction what is the practical impact not.